UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul UFO UpDates Mailing List Jul 2000 Jul 1: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Lovett - Diane Lovett [33] UpDate: PRG Update - June 30, 2000 - Bassett - Stephen G. Bassett [86] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Velez - John Velez [91] UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Velez - John Velez [82] UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [70] UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Evans - Roger Evans [62] UpDate: Sale - 1970-80 Flying Saucer Review (British) - Tom Benson [14] UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Randles - Jenny Randles [113] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [27] UpDate: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [68] UpDate: Implications - Lemire - Todd Lemire [48] UpDate: Re: Implications - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [71] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [53] Jul 2: UpDate: Magonia Monthly Supplement, No. 28 - John Rimmer [332] UpDate: Re: Implications - Sandow - Greg Sandow [25] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Sandow - Greg Sandow [44] UpDate: Re: Implications - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [32] UpDate: Re: $10,000 Exh"CAUS"ted?! - Royce J. Myers III [46] UpDate: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 7-8-00 - Rense E-News [274] UpDate: Re: Giant Airships - McCoy - GT McCoy [158] UpDate: Oberg - The Strange Case of Fobos-2 - Cummins - Blair Cummins [162] UpDate: Re: Implications - Lemire - Todd Lemire [47] UpDate: Re: Implications - Lemire - Todd Lemire [67] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Lovett - Diane Lovett [66] UpDate: For The Record - Lovett - Diane Lovett [34] UpDate: Re: Oberg - The Strange Case of Fobos-2 - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [32] UpDate: Re: Implications - Cluff - Lesley Cluff [29] Jul 3: UpDate: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Gates - Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com [25] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Gates - Robert Gates [45] UpDate: Voyager Newsletter No. 12 - James Easton [221] UpDate: Voyager Newsletter No. 13 - James Easton [702] UpDate: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Brigham - Tim D. Brigham [46] UpDate: Re: For The Record - Hatch - Larry Hatch [46] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Sandow - Greg Sandow [31] UpDate: Re: For The Record - Sandow - Greg Sandow [37] UpDate: Re: Corso & The COMETA - Sandow - Greg Sandow [32] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Velez - John Velez [56] UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Tim D. Brigham [21] UpDate: Re: PRG Press Release - July 4, 2000 - Stephen G. Bassett [60] UpDate: Italian Gassers - Russo - Edoardo Russo [52] UpDate: Re: For The Record - Hayes - John Hayes [32] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Elizabeth Hammond [86] UpDate: Stan Deyo - Lecture Cancelled Due To Ill Health - Diane Harrison Director AUFORN [29] UpDate: UFO Sightings OZ Files 06.05.2000 - Diane Harrison Director AUFORN [169] UpDate: Re: For The Record - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [44] UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Clark - Jerome Clark [22] UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [31] UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Brigham - Tim D. Brigham [37] UpDate: Re: oe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Clark - Jerome Clark [23] UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Clark - Jerome Clark [37] UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [51] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Sandow - Greg Sandow [42] UpDate: Re: For The Record - Sandow - Greg Sandow [19] UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [39] UpDate: Mysterious New Object? - Diane Lovett [128] UpDate: Re: For The Record - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [64] UpDate: Re: For The Record - Lovett - Diane Lovett [42] UpDate: Re: Mysterious New Object? - Cuthbertson - Brian Cuthbertson [33] UpDate: CPR-Canada News: Research Assistance 2000 - Paul Anderson [99] UpDate: Filer's Files #26 -- 2000 - George A. Filer [462] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [93] UpDate: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Brookesmith - Peter Duke of Mendoza [28] Jul 4: UpDate: Re: For The Record - Evans - Roger Evans [52] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Easton - James Easton [64] UpDate: P47: Corso's FBI File - Klotz - Jim Klotz [30] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [95] UpDate: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars - Fleming - Lan Fleming [16] UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [53] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Cuthbertson - Brian Cuthbertson [16] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Jim Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [136] Jul 5: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - McCoy - GT McCoy [58] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Velez - John Velez [161] UpDate: Re: Mysterious New Object? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [29] UpDate: Re: Mysterious New Object? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [48] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Hatch - Larry Hatch [28] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [31] UpDate: Chupacabras in Tierra del Fuego - Corrales - Scott Corrales [92] UpDate: Witness Testimonies - Bruni - Georgina Bruni [85] UpDate: Re: The UFOs That Never Were - Hale - Roy J Hale [30] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Lovett - Diane Lovett [44] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Kaeser - Steven W. Kaeser [45] UpDate: New Jersey UFO Conference - Benson - Tom Benson [16] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [43] UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Tim D. Brigham [47] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [21] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Mac Tonnies [24] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Deschamps - Michel M. Deschamps [25] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [77] Jul 6: UpDate: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - John Velez [139] UpDate: Re: Chupacabras in Tierra del Fuego - Hale - Roy J Hale [21] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [81] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Greg Sandow [34] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [76] UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [96] UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [85] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Deschamps - Larry Hatch [42] UpDate: Re: For The Record - Hayes - John Hayes [60] UpDate: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 27 - John Hayes [525] UpDate: Request For Details Of Lecturers - Hayes - John Hayes [60] UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Sanchez-Ocejo - Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [21] UpDate: Re: Mysterious New Object? - Lovett - Diane Lovett [33] UpDate: Nick Pope's Weird World - June 2000 - Georgina Bruni [110] UpDate: Re: Chupacabras in Tierra del Fuego - Clark - Jerome Clark [22] UpDate: Choosing A Researcher Or Therapist - Lovett - Diane Lovett [19] UpDate: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 - Georgina Bruni [117] UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Cuthbertson - Brian Cuthbertson [26] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Clark - Jerome Clark [33] UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Rutkowski - Chris Rutkowski [57] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Velez - John Velez [165] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [110] UpDate: Re: Chupacabras In Tierra del Fuego - Sanchez-Ocejo - Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [38] UpDate: Bigelow's Response To "What If" - Lovett - Diane Lovett [68] UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein ? [52] Jul 7: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Easton - James Easton [176] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [30] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Clark - Dennis Stacy [17] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Goldsmith - Rick Goldsmith [47] UpDate: Mars - For Your Enjoyement - Dan Geib [20] UpDate: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published in Science Mag - Lan Fleming [46] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [239] UpDate: Selling Files [Was Re: Joe Simonton And ...] - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [47] UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Laajala - Minna Laajala - UFO-Finland [51] UpDate: Virginia Charged With Ignoring Alien Threat - Stig Agermose [85] UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Velez - John Velez [158] UpDate: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 - Hatch - Larry Hatch [25] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Clark - Jerome Clark [25] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [32] UpDate: Further Chupacabras Activity in Argentina - Scott Corrales [101] UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Lovett - Diane Lovett [65] UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Lewis - Stephen Lewis [30] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Lehmberg - Alfrd Lehmberg [16] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [113] Jul 8: UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [61] UpDate: Re: Mars - For Your Enjoyement - Killeen - Patrick Killeen [36] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Velez - John Velez [186] UpDate: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 - Hatch - Georgina Bruni [19] UpDate: Berliner Interviewed By 'Denver Rocky Mountain News' - Stig Agermose [67] UpDate: Selling Files - Brookesmith - Peter, Duke of Mendoza, Brookesmith [159] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Keith - Rebecca Keith [41] UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Velez - John Velez [144] UpDate: Re: Chupacabras in Tierra del Fuego - Lissoni - Alfredo Lissoni [26] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Velez - John Velez [71] UpDate: Alberta Town Waits Patiently For UFO - Blair Cummins [85] UpDate: More Press On St. Paul, Alberta Conference - Blair Cummins [88] UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Hatch - Larry Hatch [55] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Hatch - Larry Hatch [46] UpDate: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 - Hatch - Larry Hatch [28] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [63] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Larry Hatch [55] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Clark - Jerome Clark [23] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Kaeser - Steven W. Kaeser [59] UpDate: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 7-8-00 - Rense E-News [247] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Kaeser - Steven W. Kaeser [14] UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Laajala - Minna Laajala - UFO-Finland [45] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Kaeser - Steven W. Kaeser [23] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Clark - Jerome Clark [20] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Fleming - Lan Fleming [19] UpDate: Further St. Paul Coverage - Blair Cummins [78] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Greg Sandow [12] Jul 9: UpDate: MJ-12 Silliness - Greg Sandow [79] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [111] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [50] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Brookesmith - Peter Brookesmith, Duke of Mendoza [64] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Brookesmith - The Duke of Mendoza, Peter Brookesmith [33] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Clark - Jerome Clark [35] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Clark - Dennis Stacy [55] UpDate: UFOs Fact or Fiction? Internet Program Wants To Know - Stig Agermose [48] UpDate: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 - Bruni - Georgina Bruni [24] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Clark - Jerome Clark [16] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 Silliness - Bruni - Georgina Bruni [59] UpDate: BAE Available On CD-ROM - SMiles Lewis [97] UpDate: A Deserved Apology To The List And EBK - Jim Mortellaro [30] Jul 10: UpDate: UFO TV Documentaries? - Ian Read [9] UpDate: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - James Easton [21] UpDate: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [49] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Selling Files - Peter Brookesmith, Duke of Mendoza [101] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 Silliness - Bruni - Greg Sandow [52] UpDate: Re: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 7-8-00 - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [108] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Brookesmith - Peter Brookesmith, Duke of Mendoza [99] UpDate: CFRB Radio - Jim Mortellaro [16] UpDate: Discovering The War?" Conference July 15th - Frances Emma Barwood [55] Jul 11: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Josh Goldstein [35] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Easton - James Easton [108] UpDate: PCs Hit the 'Outer Limits' - Stig Agermose [178] UpDate: Re: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars - Bob Young [43] UpDate: Re: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published - Young - Bob Young [22] UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Laajala - John Velez [42] UpDate: UFO Sighting OZ File 4th July 00 - Diane Harrison Director AUFORN [55] UpDate: Another MJ-12 Source - Bob Huff [39] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [99] UpDate: Filer's Files #27 -- 2000 - George A. Filer [500] UpDate: Edmonton Sun - St. Paul UFO Conference - Stig Agermose [75] UpDate: Re: Italian Painting - Dan Geib [21] UpDate: Earth-Approaching Space Rock Found By Accident - Stig Agermose [35] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [26] UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [23] UpDate: My Appearance On SDI - John Velez [57] UpDate: Re: Another MJ-12 Source - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [26] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Velez - John Velez [56] UpDate: Re: Italian Painting - Hatch - Larry Hatch [18] UpDate: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 - Hatch - Larry Hatch [58] UpDate: Re: Italian Painting - Hatch - Larry Hatch [25] UpDate: Re: Another MJ-12 Source - Huff - Bob Huff [25] UpDate: Re: UpDate: Another MJ-12 Source - Hatch - Larry Hatch [14] UpDate: Re: UFO TV Documentaries? - royjhale [25] UpDate: Re: UFO TV Documentaries? - Friedman - Stan Friedman [31] UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Hale - Roy J Hale [34] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 Silliness - Bruni - Georgina Bruni [37] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Selling Files - Clark - Jerome Clark [19] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Clark - Jerome Clark [26] UpDate: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Jan Aldrich [109] UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Easton - James Easton [40] UpDate: Re: Italian Painting - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [27] UpDate: Re: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 7-8-00 - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [101] UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Royce J. Myers III [23] UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Friedman - Stan Friedman [115] UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Cecchini - Ron Cecchini [49] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [64] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [48] UpDate: Re: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars - Fleming - Lan Fleming [53] UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Cashman - Mark Cashman [20] UpDate: Re: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published - Fleming - Lan Fleming [48] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 Silliness - Gates - Robert Gates [23] UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Easton - James Easton [99] Jul 12: UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... Easton - James Easton [29] UpDate: Re: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars - Young - Bob Young [47] UpDate: Re: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars - Young - Bob Young [28] UpDate: Re: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published - - John Winterflood [37] UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Friedman - Stan Friedman [41] UpDate: Nightly Rocket-Launch Captured? - Werner Walter [9] UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [11] UpDate: Video Publishing - Philip Mantle [27] UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Hale - Roy J Hale [25] UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [33] UpDate: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - John Rimmer [120] UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Myers - Royce J. Myers III [29] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [124] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Rudiak - David Rudiak [44] UpDate: Re: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published - Fleming - Lan Fleming [70] UpDate: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - Beasley - Craig Beasley [56] UpDate: Re: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars - Fleming - Lan Fleming [53] UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Easton - James Easton [186] UpDate: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly - Nick Balaskas [52] UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [27] UpDate: A New UFO 'Invasion' In Mexico? - Werner Walter [3] UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [182] UpDate: Astronaut Cooper Describes UFO Experience In New Book - Stig Agermose [49] UpDate: Sagan and Firmage: Not So Perfect Together? - Stig Agermose [148] Jul 13: UpDate: Re: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published - - John Winterflood [32] UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - YoungB - Bob Young [26] UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [21] UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [108] UpDate: NIDS Prompts Speculation - Blair Cummins [85] UpDate: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - McCoy - GT McCoy [160] UpDate: Re: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly - Sandow - Greg Sandow [25] UpDate: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - Rudiak - David Rudiak [69] UpDate: "Who's There?" - Mac Tonnies [162] UpDate: Re: A New UFO 'Invasion' In Mexico? - Larry Hatch [28] UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Friedman - Stan Friedman [32] UpDate: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 28 - John Hayes [534] UpDate: Re: A New UFO 'Invasion' In Mexico? - Corrales - Scott Corrales [19] UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [22] UpDate: Hundreds of Mexicans Have Seen UFOs Recently - Scott Corrales [40] UpDate: Re: NIDS Prompts Speculation - Lovett - Diane Lovett [51] UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Klotz - Jim Klotz [25] Jul 14: UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [15] UpDate: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [204] UpDate: PRG Press Release - 7/14/00 - ParadigmRG@aol.com [79] UpDate: Re: NIDS Prompts Speculation - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [55] UpDate: Re: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - - Greg Sandow [102] UpDate: Re: Close Encounter Creates Great Expectations - lornis1@juno.com [58] UpDate: Public Request To Robert Bigelow & NIDS - John [64] UpDate: Re: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly - Hatch - Larry Hatch [41] UpDate: Re: "Who's There?" - Sean Jones [20] UpDate: Like Flying Saucers - Lunar Dust Hovers Too - Nick Balaskas [59] UpDate: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - Brigham - Tim D. Brigham [32] UpDate: Leeds, UK UFO Footage Shown On Local TV - Stig Agermose [21] UpDate: Re: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Myers - Royce J. Myers III [36] UpDate: Re: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published - Fleming - Lan Fleming [62] UpDate: Re: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [72] UpDate: Sniffing Out E.T. - Stig Agermose [113] UpDate: Re: New Sighting In Mexico City - Holger Isenberg [30] UpDate: Re: 'Ungathering' At Ilkley, Yorkshire, UK - Philip Mantle [59] UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [63] UpDate: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - John Velez [64] UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - - Dennis Stacy [27] UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - - Peter Brookesmith, Duke of Mendoza [43] Jul 15: UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - - Jerome Clark [27] UpDate: Re: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly - Cecchini - Ron Cecchini [41] UpDate: 'Mockumentary' About The Roswell Crash - Stig Agermose [78] UpDate: 'Scooby-Doo And The Alien Invaders' - Stig Agermose [125] UpDate: Re: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly - Cecchini - Ron Cecchini [42] UpDate: Re: Public Request To Robert Bigelow & NIDS - Velez - John Velez [125] UpDate: Re: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly - Pressley - Loy Pressley [25] UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - - John Velez [33] UpDate: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [101] UpDate: MacLaine Opens Website To Tell Of Her UFO Encounters - Stig Agermose [106] UpDate: Re: Sniffing Out E.T. - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [37] UpDate: First Man To Orbit [was: UCSD Scientists Find Rock - Donald Ledger [37] UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [12] UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - - Alfred Lehmberg [26] UpDate: Former Airliner Pilot Admits to UFO Sighting - Scott Corrales [127] UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - - Jim Mortellaro [37] UpDate: Bruni's Column - July 2000 - Georgina Bruni [14] UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [16] UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - YoungB - Bob Young [20] UpDate: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc - Murray Bott [14] UpDate: Re: First Man To Orbit - Easton - James Easton [13] UpDate: GUFOA Web Site - James Easton [39] UpDate: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 7-15-00 - Rense E-News [293] UpDate: Roswell Welcomes Out-of-Towners - Blair Cummins [71] UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Cuthbertson - Brian Cuthbertson [26] Jul 16: UpDate: P-47: ohn Carpenter's Sale - William E. Jones [20] UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [49] UpDate: Re: First Man To Orbit - Wright - Bruce Wright [29] UpDate: Re: Westchester County Weekly - 'UFOs Revisited' - Stig Agermose [375] UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Velez - John Velez [53] UpDate: Re: Need Support! - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [45] UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Roger Evans [21] UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Cuthbertson - Brian Cuthbertson [58] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc - Meiners - Jean Meiners [51] UpDate: CPR-Canada News: Circles in Manitoba - 07-16-2000 - Paul Anderson [97] UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Gates - Robert Gates [19] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Gates - Robert Gates [50] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 Silliness - Gates - Robert Gates [36] Jul 17: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc - Kaeser - Steven W. Kaeser [21] UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Hatch - Larry Hatch [25] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Sandow - Greg Sandow [35] UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Cuthbertson - Larry Hatch [35] UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Hatch - Larry Hatch [65] UpDate: Re: First Man To Orbit - Hatch - Donald Ledger [19] UpDate: Re: Need Support! - Mulvey - Ann Mulvey [53] UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Gates - Robert Gates [20] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc - Weber - John Velez [60] UpDate: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - Gates - Robert Gates [33] UpDate: Re: nother MJ-12 Source - Gates - Robert Gates [57] UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - John Velez [66] UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Kippenberger - Corky Kippenberger [28] UpDate: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale - mcastner@=====.COM [50] UpDate: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale - Jenny Randles [48] UpDate: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale - Karl Pflock [19] UpDate: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale - mcastner@======.com [44] UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Steven Kaeser [28] UpDate: Re: Need Support! - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [35] UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [60] UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Elizabeth Hammond [74] UpDate: Re: Need Support! - Velez - John Velez [83] UpDate: Major UFO Incident And Video Footage - Tim Mathews [72] UpDate: Re: Another MJ12 Source - Huff - Bob Huff [48] UpDate: Re: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [105] UpDate: Re: First Man To Orbit - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [91] UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [49] Jul 18: UpDate: Kenny Young On The St. Louis MUFON Thing - Kenny Young [101] UpDate: Re: MJ-12 & Joe Firmage - Ron Cecchini [16] UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - John Velez [88] UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Hatch - Larry Hatch [48] UpDate: Re: Westchester County Weekly - 'UFOs Revisited' - - Ron Cecchini [18] UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Velez - John Velez [56] UpDate: Re: First Man To Orbit - Straight - Brian Straight [23] UpDate: Re: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale - Velez - John Velez [63] UpDate: Filer's Files #28 -- 2000 - Majorstar@aol.com [484] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [141] UpDate: Re: Need Support! - Mulvey - Ann Mulvey [42] UpDate: Re: Another MJ12 Source - Huff - Greg Sandow [33] UpDate: Re: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale - Hales - Roy J Hale [36] UpDate: Re: John Carpenter's File Sale - Kaeser - Steven W. Kaeser [25] UpDate: Re: First Man To Orbit - YoungB - Bob Young [56] UpDate: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - GT McCoy - GT McCoy [38] UpDate: World Slowing Down? - Roger Evans [10] UpDate: Re: Public Request To Robert Bigelow & NIDS - Cecchini - Ron Cecchini [8] UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Cecchini - Ron Cecchini [7] UpDate: Re: Another MJ12 Source - Cecchini - Ron Cecchini [49] UpDate: Re: Need Support! - Mulvey - Ann Mulvey [59] UpDate: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - John Velez [55] UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [46] UpDate: Roswell: Plan To Relocate UFO Museum Feared - Stig Agermose [51] UpDate: Re: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [28] UpDate: Ohio Crop Circle Discovery - Kenny Young [65] UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Kaeser - Steven W. Kaeser [44] UpDate: Cydonian Imperative: New Page Added - Mac Tonnies [152] UpDate: Van Tassel Paintings For Auction - Royce J. Myers III [54] UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Myers - Royce J. Myers III [25] UpDate: Ufological Code of Conduct - Jim Klotz [341] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [43] UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [29] UpDate: Re: Magonia Monthly Supplement, No. 28 - Edoardo Russo [53] UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [81] UpDate: UFOIN - Code of Practice - Jenny Randles [214] UpDate: Re: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale - Randles - Jenny Randles [30] UpDate: Another UFO Sighting In Cheshire, UK - Philip Mantle [12] UpDate: Re: World Slowing Down? - Jim Deardorff [41] UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Velez - John Velez [82] UpDate: Sighting: Ironton, Ohio - July 8 - Kenny Young [53] UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - John Velez [119] UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [26] UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [24] UpDate: Re: Another UFO Sighting In Cheshire, UK - Blanton - Terry Blanton [19] UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Gildas Bourdais [63] UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [19] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [135] UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Brigham - Tim D. Brigham [92] UpDate: Abductee Files/Our Children - Ann Mulvey [48] UpDate: Re: Roswell: Plan To Relocate UFO Museum Feared - Woods - Michael J. Woods [59] UpDate: Re: World Slowing Down? - Evans - Roger Evans [57] UpDate: Re: World Slowing Down? - Woods - Michael J. Woods [21] UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [41] UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [36] UpDate: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Reflections - Tim Mathews [101] Jul 19: UpDate: Abductees [was: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc] - Elizabeth Hammond [150] UpDate: Re: Former Airliner Pilot Admits to UFO Sighting - - Bruce Maccabee [33] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Bob Young [53] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - James Easton [23] UpDate: Abductee Files, Carpenter & NIDS - Thus Far - Robert Gates [105] UpDate: Re: Another UFO Sighting In Cheshire, UK - Mantle - Philip Mantle [30] UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Reflections - - Roger Evans [34] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [28] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Rutkowski - Chris Rutkowski [57] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Randles - Jenny Randles [91] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow - Greg Sandow [24] UpDate: Cheshire, UK UFO Video - Press Release - 7-19-00 - Philip Mantle [68] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files, Carpenter & NIDS - Thus Far - Velez - John Velez [191] UpDate: Re: Abductees - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [172] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow - Greg Sandow [64] UpDate: Re: Abductees - Beaver - Mike Beaver [91] UpDate: UFO Reports in Denver Rocky Mountain News - Stig Agermose [72] UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Reflections - - Roy J Hale [24] Jul 20: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mulvey - Ann Mulvey [33] UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Cecchini - Ron Cecchini [21] UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Lewis - SMiles Lewis [37] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Kippenberger - Corky Kippenberger [15] UpDate: John Carpenter [was: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children] - Gary Hart [48] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mulvey - Ann Mulvey [42] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files, Carpenter & NIDS - Thus Far - Hart - Gary Hart [104] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Brigham - Tim D. Brigham [110] UpDate: Re: Abductees - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [144] UpDate: NIDS Discussion Forum - Ann Mulvey [9] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [131] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files, Carpenter & NIDS - Thus Far - - Ann Mulvey [23] UpDate: Re: Plan To Relocate UFO Museum Feared - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [92] UpDate: Chinese 'Fireballs'? - Ron Cecchini [4] UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Velez - John Velez [141] UpDate: Re: OZ UFO Sightings - File code: 00801/2/3 - Diane Harrison Director AUFORN [100] UpDate: Forward From Gary Hart - John Velez [624] UpDate: Siegel Show - Call-In 'Witness' - Ron Cecchini [16] UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Hatch - Larry Hatch [39] UpDate: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 29 - John Hayes [468] UpDate: Re: Abductees - Steven W. Kaeser [38] UpDate: Re: John Carpenter - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [24] UpDate: Re: Abductees - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [65] UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Felder - Bobbie Felder [36] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [122] UpDate: Paper Presented by Michigan UFO CENTRAL - Todd Lemire [22] UpDate: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes - Andy Roberts [83] UpDate: UFOCAT Website - Bruno Mancusi [8] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow - Greg Sandow [58] UpDate: Anonymity and Sharing? - Bill Weber [27] UpDate: Re: John Carpenter - Keith - Rebecca Keith [15] UpDate: Bigelow By Phone - Ann Mulvey [32] UpDate: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - UFO UpDates - Toronto [16] Jul 21: UpDate: Re: Abductees - Beaver - Mike Beaver [178] UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [52] UpDate: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Katharina Wilson [8] UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Walton - Fran Walton [17] UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Myers - Royce J. Myers III [24] UpDate: U-WIRE: UFOs? The Scientific Community Cannot Be - Stig Agermose [63] UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Mulvey - Ann Mulvey [30] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Rutkowski - Chris Rutkowski [76] UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - John Velez [54] UpDate: NIDS - Class Act - Brian Cuthbertson [15] UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [25] UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Felder - Bobbie Felder [39] UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [27] UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [53] UpDate: Comment On Cheshire Video - UFOIN - Jenny Randles [56] UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes - - Jerry Anderson [108] Jul 22: UpDate: Sale Of Abductee Files/NIDS Bulletin Board - John Velez [113] UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Mulvey - Ann Mulvey [34] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Jones - Sean Jones [9] UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - UFO UpDates - Toronto [27] UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Terry Blanton [27] UpDate: NIDS Faculty - Brian Cuthbertson [131] UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Myers - Royce J. Myers III [16] UpDate: Re: Siegel Show - Call-In 'Witness' - Myers - Royce J. Myers III [31] UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes - - Jenny Randles [106] UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [34] UpDate: Re: Bigelow By Phone - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [29] UpDate: Re: Abductees - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [59] UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Mulvey - Ann Mulvey [68] UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes - - Andy Roberts [46] UpDate: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video - Matthews - Tim Matthews [84] UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes - - Tim Matthews [48] UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Peterborough - Kelly Peterborough [43] UpDate: Re: Will This Man Ever Stop? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [62] UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes - - Larry Hatch [34] UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [100] UpDate: For The Record - Richard Boylan - UFO UpDates - Toronto [941] UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Hart - Gary Hart [33] UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes - - GT McCoy [88] UpDate: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video - Randles - Jenny Randles [154] Jul 23: UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Mulvey - Ann Mulvey [34] UpDate: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video - Randles - Jenny Randles [25] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Brookesmith - Peter The Duke of Mendoza Brookesmith [44] UpDate: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 7-22-00 - Rense E-News [268] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [28] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Brookesmith - The Duke of Mendoza - Peter Brookesmith [122] UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - - The Duke Peter of Mendoza Brookesmith [49] UpDate: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [34] UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Myers - Royce J. Myers III [45] UpDate: Re: NIDS Discussion Forum - Gates - Robert Gates [16] UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Gates - Robert Gates [51] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [162] UpDate: New Area 51 Video Available - Stig Agermose [24] UpDate: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video - Matthews - Tim Matthews [38] UpDate: Re: UFO Watchtower Gets Visit - Blair Cummins [118] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Randles - Jenny Randles [45] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [127] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Easton - James Easton [113] UpDate: Spectacular UFO Taped Over Caracas, Venezuela - Scott Corrales [18] UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Hart - Gary Hart [55] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow - Greg Sandow [87] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow - Greg Sandow [40] UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - - John Velez [148] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Clark - Jerome Clark [25] Jul 24: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Jones - Sean Jones [83] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Jones - Sean Jones [45] UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Mulvey - Ann Mulvey [42] UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - - Jerome Clark [19] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [68] UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Mulvey - Ann Mulvey [81] UpDate: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video - Randles - Jenny Randles [82] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [73] UpDate: Re: Another MJ12 Source - Gates - Robert Gates [69] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [240] UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Gates - Robert Gates [31] UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes - - James Easton [204] UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Bourdais - Jan Aldrich [42] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Gates - Robert Gates [67] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow - Greg Sandow [230] UpDate: Re: Abductees - Beaver - Mike Beaver [81] UpDate: Germany 1990: Two RAF Phantoms Buzzed By UFO - Stig Agermose [15] UpDate: Tarter: Far Side Of The Moon Near-Perfect Place For - Stig Agermose [52] UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Velez - John Velez [105] UpDate: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video - Bowden - Dave Bowden [62] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Sandow - Greg Sandow [13] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Sandow - Greg Sandow [89] Jul 25: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Sandow - Greg Sandow [17] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Manso - Luis R. Gonzlez Manso [33] UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - - Luis R. Gonzlez Manso [102] UpDate: Cheshire Video - Skeptical View So Far - Andy Roberts [300] UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Weber - Bill Weber [46] UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart - John Velez [26] UpDate: Filer's Files #29 -- 2000 - George A. Filer [501] UpDate: Re: Travel Channel's 'UFOs Down To Earth' & More - Ron Cecchini [25] UpDate: Venezuelan Spectacular Sighting? - Ron Cecchini [21] UpDate: Re: Siegel Show - Call-In 'Witness' - Cecchini - Ron Cecchini [20] UpDate: Re: Abductees - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [48] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [236] UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Mulvey - Ann Mulvey [166] UpDate: Re: UFO TV Documentaries? - Cecchini - Ron Cecchini [35] UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart - - Gary Hart [25] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [21] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [15] UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Hart - Gary Hart [40] UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [113] UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart - - Ann Mulvey [19] UpDate: Re: Travel Channel's 'UFOs Down To Earth' & More - - Ann Mulvey [17] UpDate: South African Incident - 500 Years Ago? - Stig Agermose [19] UpDate: Re: Venezuelan Spectacular Sighting? - Corrales - Scott Corrales [20] UpDate: Re: Abductees - Velez - John Velez [121] UpDate: Re: Venezuelan Spectacular Sighting? - Young - Bob Young [36] UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart - - Elizabeth Hammond [45] UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth Carbenter and Gary Hart - - Jan Aldrich [51] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Brookesmith - Peter Brookesmith [78] UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Brookesmith - Peter The Duke of Mendoza Brookesmith [36] UpDate: BUFOSC - Final Comments On Cheshire Footage - Tim Matthews [219] UpDate: Re: Lancs/Cheshire Sightings, Our Position - Jenny Randles [59] UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart - - Ann Mulvey [47] UpDate: Re: Siegel Show - Call-In 'Witness' - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [57] UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - - The Duke of Mendoza [141] UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [48] UpDate: Anatomy Of A UFO Hoax - Bobbie Felder [33] Jul 26: UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Abductees' Files - Hart - Gary Hart [64] UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart - - Gary Hart [31] UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart - - geehart@frontiernet.net [15] UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [98] UpDate: Re: Siegel Show - Call-In 'Witness' - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [16] UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - - Jim Mortellaro [63] UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Mulvey - Ann Mulvey [75] UpDate: Re: BUFOSC - Final Comments On Cheshire Footage - - Andy Roberts [18] UpDate: Re: Final Comments On Cheshire Footage - Lushman - Rory Lushman [199] UpDate: Re: Venezuelan Spectacular Sighting? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [49] UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Velez - John Velez [108] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Velez - John Velez [70] UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Gary - Velez - John Velez [58] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Sandow - Greg Sandow [28] UpDate: Re: BUFOSC - Final Comments On Cheshire Footage - - Jenny Randles [76] UpDate: Looking Through The Hubble With Dan Sheehan - Alfred Lehmberg [138] UpDate: Spacenapping [was: Re: Selling Files] - Jenny Randles [188] UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Manso - Luis R. Gonzlez Manso [79] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [59] UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Gary - Kaeser - Steve W. Kaeser [42] UpDate: Re: Looking Through The Hubble With Dan Sheehan - - Steven G. Bassett ? [21] UpDate: John Carpenter Responds - Katharina Wilson [89] UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Gary - Velez - John Velez [126] UpDate: Abductee File Case Not "Mysteriously" Dropped - Katharina Wilson [11] UpDate: National UFO Information Week Display - Stan Gordon [16] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [112] UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - - Peter, The Duke of Mendoza [51] UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Gary - Mulvey - Ann Mulvey [60] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [86] UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Velez - John Velez [74] Jul 27: UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Hart - Mulvey - Ann Mulvey [42] UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Mulvey - Ann Mulvey [78] UpDate: Los Chupacabras! - Josh Goldstein [35] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [40] UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Gary - Mulvey - Ann Mulvey [44] UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Haley - Tim Haley [137] UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [180] UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Jim Mortellaro [27] UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - - Jim Mortellaro [15] UpDate: CIA Director's Request For Files On Roswell & UFO - Stig Agermose [85] UpDate: In Support Of Gary Hart - Gary Hart [122] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [38] UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Hart - Gary Hart [183] UpDate: Voodoo Science - Bruce Maccabee [136] UpDate: Re: Siegel Show - Call-In 'Witness' - Cecchini - Ron Cecchini [76] UpDate: Re: Abductee File Case Not "Mysteriously" Dropped - - Gary Hart [22] UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Mulvey - Ann Mulvey [27] UpDate: Re: Reports Of Dead Mars Greatly Exaggerated - Stig Agermose [211] UpDate: Re: UFO TV Documentaries? - Cecchini - Ron Cecchini [68] UpDate: Scientists Dream Of Parallel Worlds - Stig Agermose [158] UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Carpenter - John Carpenter [49] UpDate: Re: Anatomy Of A UFO Hoax - Checchini - Ron Cecchini [141] UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Gates - Robert Gates [162] UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Gates - Robert Gates [23] UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Robert Gates [94] UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Gates - Robert Gates [46] UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Hart - Velez - John Velez [57] UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Velez - John Velez [127] UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Velez - John Velez [131] UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Kaeser - Steve W. Kaeser [90] UpDate: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 30 - John Hayes [570] UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Weber - Bill Weber [20] UpDate: Re: CIA Director's Request For Roswell & UFO Files - - Bruce Maccabee [29] Jul 28: UpDate: Re: Spacenapping - Easton - James Easton [26] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [123] UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [130] UpDate: Re: Voodoo Science - Deardorff - Jim Deardorff [21] UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Hart - Mulvey - Ann Mulvey [89] UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Mulvey - Ann Mulvey [11] UpDate: UFO Report: Ashtabula and Trumbull Counties, Ohio - - Kenny Young [82] UpDate: Ufological Code of Conduct - [US] - Jim Klotz [24] UpDate: Re: Voodoo Science - Carey - Tom Carey [22] UpDate: Is Your Mind Made Up? - Ron Cecchini [18] UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Brigham - Tim D. Brigham [19] UpDate: Re: UFO TV Documentaries? - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [34] UpDate: Re: Venezuelan Spectacular Sighting? - YoungB - Bob Young [15] UpDate: Re: CIA Director's Request For Files On Roswell & UFO - Bob Young [24] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [114] UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [150] UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Hart - Gary Hart [28] UpDate: Essays On Abductions Gain Scholarly Nod - Stig Agermose [73] UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [33] UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Hart - geehart@frontiernet.net [13] UpDate: It Is Consumated - Jim Mortellaro [21] UpDate: Re: Is Your Mind Made Up? - Brigham - Tim D. Brigham [22] UpDate: Re: CIA Director's Request For Roswell & UFO Files - - Robert Gates [40] UpDate: 'Only Amoeba And Microbe Life Outside Earth' - Stig Agermose [23] UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Gates - Robert Gates [77] UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Brigham - Tim D. Brigham [23] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Rimmer - John Rimmer [42] UpDate: Village Refuses to Pay Saucer Power Bill - Scott Corrales [35] UpDate: Re: Anatomy Of A UFO Hoax - Friedman - Stan Friedman [97] UpDate: Re: UFO TV Documentaries? - Friedman - Stan Friedman [59] UpDate: Re: Voodoo Science - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [23] UpDate: Re: Voodoo Science - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [27] UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [150] UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Mulvey - Ann Mulvey [74] UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Mulvey - Ann Mulvey [57] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [104] UpDate: Re: Venezuelan Spectacular Sighting? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [36] Jul 29: UpDate: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 1 - Larry Hatch [40] UpDate: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 2 [Waves] - Larry Hatch [78] UpDate: Joe Public Keep UFO Footage Secret! - Roy J Hale [13] UpDate: Re: Is Your Mind Made Up? - Hale - Roy J Hale [11] UpDate: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! - Lewis - SMiles Lewis [25] UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Brigham - Tim D. Brigham [34] UpDate: Re: Anatomy Of A UFO Hoax - Felder - Bobbie Felder [108] UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Mulvey - Ann Mulvey [22] UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [143] UpDate: RAND Opens Historical Files For Researchers - Stig Agermose [63] UpDate: Re: Essays On Abductions Gain Scholarly Nod - McCoy - GT McCoy [106] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow - Greg Sandow [62] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow - Greg Sandow [52] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [73] UpDate: Bush 'Statement'On CNN? - Steve Bassett [19] UpDate: NASA Tests Theory That Life Came With Microbes From - Stig Agermose [61] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [138] UpDate: Re: Anatomy Of A UFO Hoax - Manso - Luis R. Gonzlez Manso [22] UpDate: Re: Small Follow-Up On Venezuelan Saucer Case - Scott Corrales [11] UpDate: Chupacabras In Chile - Scott Corrales [72] UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Carpenter - John Carpenter [22] UpDate: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! - Cuthbertson - Brian Cuthbertson [12] UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 2 [Waves] - Sandow - Greg Sandow [21] UpDate: UFOIN Statement On Cheshire Video - Jenny Randles [52] UpDate: Re: Essays On Abductions Gain Scholarly Nod - Clark - Jerome Clark [68] UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [34] UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 1 - Haley - Tim Haley [16] UpDate: Re: Joe Public Keep UFO Footage Secret! - Roberts - Andy Roberts [15] UpDate: Re: UFOIN Statement On Cheshire Video - Lewis - SMiles Lewis [18] UpDate: Re: Spacenapping - Beaver - Mike Beaver [198] UpDate: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [61] UpDate: Pine Bush Research/Book Project - Scott Carr [42] UpDate: Re: UFOIN Web Site - Randles - Jenny Randles [12] UpDate: Re: Essays On Abductions Gain Scholarly Nod - - Peter Duke Mendoza Brookesmith [39] Jul 30: UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 1 - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [39] UpDate: Re: Spacenapping - Randles - Jenny Randles [172] UpDate: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 7-29-00 - Rense E-News [223] UpDate: Re: Spacenapping - Cuthbertson - Brian Cuthbertson [35] UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 2 [Waves] - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [11] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Rimmer - John Rimmer [86] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Rimmer - John Rimmer [90] UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Mulvey - Ann Mulvey [59] UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 2 [Waves] - Hatch - Larry Hatch [48] UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 1 - Hatch - Larry Hatch [53] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Keith - Rebecca Keith [22] UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Hubbell - Katherine Hubbell [72] UpDate: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Sleep Paralysis Vs - Joseph Polanik [91] Jul 31: UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 2 [Waves] - Young - Bob Young [29] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [162] UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Hart - Hart - Gary Hart [55] UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Mulvey - Ann Mulvey [225] UpDate: Re: Ufological Code of Conduct - [US] - Hart - Gary Hart [33] UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Prokic - Roger Prokic [18] UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Mulvey - Ann Mulvey [96] UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Brigham - Gary Hart [14] UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Kippenberger - Corky Kippenberger [26] UpDate: Re: Spacenapping - Beaver - Mike Beaver [184] UpDate: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [60] UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 2 [Waves] - Hatch - Larry Hatch [46] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Brookesmith - Brookesmith Duke of Mendoza [49] UpDate: Re: Bush 'Statement'On CNN? - Hale - Roy J Hale [19] UpDate: Re: Joe Public Keep UFO Footage Secret! - Hale - Roy J Hale [19] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Bowden - Dave Bowden [55] UpDate: Re: Spacenapping - Hale - Roy J Hale [20] UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 1 - Rutkowski - Chris Rutkowski [40] UpDate: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Laajala - Minna Laajala - UFO-Finland [152] UpDate: Re: Pioneering Astronaut Sees UFO Coverup - Stig Agermose [45] UpDate: Edwards AFB Incident: Air Force Captain Admits Seeing - Stig Agermose [16] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow - Greg Sandow [103] UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Gates - Robert Gates [44] UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary Hart - - Corky Kippenberger [20] UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [57] UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Velez - John Velez [118] The number enclosed in brackets is the number of lines of new text in
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 1 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Lovett From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 23:33:34 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 01:32:26 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Lovett >>Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:21:55 -0400 >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Dear James: >>I never heard about any of this. What I do find most interesting >>is this: The original post which "revealed" some sort of fast >>and loose regarding abductee's records and money has degenerated >>into a cat and dog fight over how much money the people a UFOIN >>may or may not have. A subject that seems to be about as far >>afield from the the original premise as possible. >I agree with Elizabeth, and what's most remarkable here is that >the grant James refers to has been discussed in public many >times. >The money came from Robert Bigelow, and was given so Budd and >Dave (along with sociologist Ron Westrum) could commission the >Roper organization to conduct a nationwide poll in the United >States. The poll was designed to determine how many Americans >had had experiences that Budd and Dave think indicate possible >abductions. >The results of the poll are highly controversial, and I won't >unearth once again the arguments on either side. As for the >$200,000 amount, I've never heard it mentioned before, but the >sum seems entirely reasonable for one of America's best known >polling firms to conduct a large-scale survey. Thanks Greg. I knew they had done the Roper poll, but not the details of the funding, etc. Now, if there was just some way to hear more about who is selling the abductees info for profit, to help put a lot of folks minds to ease about the very personal records held by many researchers. It would be nice to put all the speculation to bed too. Diane
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 1 UpDate: PRG Update - June 30, 2000 - Bassett From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG@aol.com> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 03:20:26 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 10:02:26 -0400 Subject: UpDate: PRG Update - June 30, 2000 - Bassett PRG Paradigm Research Group Update: June 30, 2000 **************************************************************** World Wide Watch 2000 Destination Space hosts the second World Wide Watch on July 1st. Information on this global UFO observation event can be found at www.destinationspace.net. WWW starts at 8 pm, Sydney, Australian time. The event will end at midnight, Hawaii Time! _____________________________ Coast to Coast Am - July 6 The July 6, Thur/Fri Coast to Coast AM with Mike Siegel has the potential to be a very impacting program on the disclosure process. Joining Mike will be Alfred Webre, the author of Exopolitics, and Stephen Bassett, the Executive Director of X-PPAC. A notable third guest may join the program. Exopolitics is an Internet books published at: http://www.universebooks.com/exopoliticsexcerpt1.html _____________________________ The Learning Channel Tonight TLC ran, with repeats, six consecutive hours of UFO documentaries. The "UFOs Uncovered" series is notable for having much government content, including pilots, astronauts, and air traffic controllers, both U.S. and Soviet. This dense pack programming of such material has occurred numerous times in the past. TLC and it's parent company, Discovery Communications, are based in Bethesda, MD just outside of Washington, DC. The DC metro area has one of the highest cable TV market penetrations in the country. _______________________________ The Paradigm Clock Based upon developments over the past six months, the Paradigm Clock, which tracks the proximity to formal disclosure of the extraterrestrial presence, will be reset to a new time next week on July 6. To learn about the Paradigm Clock go to: http://www.paradigmclock.com ________________________________ Larry Bryant A member of Citizens Against UFO Secrecy (CAUS) is receiving considerable attention for a series of UFO related legal actions being directed at the State and Governor of Virginia. Coverage has included National Public Radio, Court TV and numerous radio appearances by Bryant. Learn more at: http://www.ufocity.com ________________________________ Alien Zoo Column This website is developing into a diverse source of information and commentary. Columnists include Jim Marrs, Peter Gersten, Jim Dilettoso, Paul Davids and others. Stephen Bassett contributes a weekly piece on the "Politics of UFOs." All columns are archived. Check out the Alien Zoo at: http://www.alienzoo.com _________________________________ Leslie Kean UFO/COMETA Article A slightly expanded version of the article by Leslie Kean centering on the COMETA report has appeared in the "Irish Independent" and can be viewed at: http://www.independent.ie/2000/178/d14c.shtml The original story titled "UFO Theorists Gain Support Abroad, But Repression At Home" appeared in the Boston Globe on Sunday, May 21 and can be viewed at: http://www.paradigmclock.com/Kean_Boston_Globe_Focus5-21.htm Covers of this story have also appeared in the Minneapolis Star Tribune, Sunday May 28, among others. Note: Considerable effort has been made to get the Washington Post to cover this article in expanded version. The Post will not budge. _________________________________ CAUS The CAUS v. Department of Defense (DoD) FOIA case has now gone to the appeal process which will have an interregnum of at least 12 months. Action in the CAUS v. United States of America; State of Arizona et al. has ended after being dismissed on June 23. For more information visit CAUS at: http://www.caus.org _________________________________ **************************************************************** Paradigm Research Group E-mail: ParadigmRG@aol.com Phone: 301-564-1820 Fax: 301-564-4066 4938 Hampden Lane, #161 Bethesda, Maryland 20814 **************************************************************** Spread the word about the politics of disclosure: www.x-ppac.org Contribute online or mail to: 4938 Hampden Lane, #161 Bethesda, MD 20814 **************************************************************** "There is almost no limit to what you can accomplish, if you are willing to give away the credit." ****************************************************************
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 1 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 03:42:12 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 10:13:51 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Velez >Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 23:33:34 -0400 >From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:21:55 -0400 >>>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Dear James: >>>I never heard about any of this. What I do find most interesting >>>is this: The original post which "revealed" some sort of fast >>>and loose regarding abductee's records and money has degenerated >>>into a cat and dog fight over how much money the people a UFOIN >>>may or may not have. A subject that seems to be about as far >>>afield from the the original premise as possible. >>I agree with Elizabeth, and what's most remarkable here is that >>the grant James refers to has been discussed in public many >>times. >>The money came from Robert Bigelow, and was given so Budd and >>Dave (along with sociologist Ron Westrum) could commission the >>Roper organization to conduct a nationwide poll in the United >>States. The poll was designed to determine how many Americans >>had had experiences that Budd and Dave think indicate possible >>abductions. >>The results of the poll are highly controversial, and I won't >>unearth once again the arguments on either side. As for the >>$200,000 amount, I've never heard it mentioned before, but the >>sum seems entirely reasonable for one of America's best known >>polling firms to conduct a large-scale survey. >Thanks Greg. I knew they had done the Roper poll, but not the >details of the funding, etc. >Now, if there was just some way to hear more about who is >selling the abductees info for profit, to help put a lot of >folks minds to ease about the very personal records held by many >researchers. It would be nice to put all the speculation to bed >too. >Diane Hello Diane, hi All, >It would be nice to put all the speculation to bed >too. It wasn't easy for me to write or to submit that post to UpDates. I had been tortured by it for weeks and the "What If" post was my way of doing what I thought was the right thing to do. I could not 'identify' the party in question in my posting because; a. This individual has not been tried in civil court. Any direct references to this person would give him/her an opportunity to sue me for defamation of character, loss of income, and other equally nasty legal mumbo-jumbo. I needed to level the playing field by putting people 'wise' but, I cannot afford expensive lawyer fees for lengthy litigation that I would lose! Someone else is in possession of 'evidence' connected to this incident. Not I. b. A direct reference would only serve to interfere with any pending or future litigation against this person by the 140 injured paties involved. The _real_ point of it Diane was to insure that no one else gets violated the way that 140 abductees have already been. My references were to 140 _files_ but those files represent 140 _lives_. I cannot reveal my sources, but I can tell you first hand that some of the folks involved were _seriousy_ hurt by this business. I needed to warn folks to look out for their _own_ best interest by securing privacy assurances in _writing_. It was also intended to alert the parties involved that the _public_ is now aware of these shady dealings in the private details of people's lives. [Without their prior knowledge or consent. That, the breach of confidence and privacy as well as the transfer of personal medical data is where the true violations lie.] I hope the threat of public exposure is enough to stop the practice of selling abductee files for cash. Anyone who would engage in such sneaky dealings must also be scared to death of being found out and publicly exposed. No more book sales, no more free flights and hotel rooms, no more invitations to speak at meetings and conferences, no one left with any interest to hear anything they may have to say. It's nice to think that folks would band together to _force_ such low life to go 'out of business', permanently. You don't need the names. You need to stay alert and aware and thinking on your feet. I'm fairly certain that the majority of those who work with abductees, in any fashion, are sincere and ethical people. But, as my daddy used to counsel me, "Johnny, there's always a Joker in the deck!" Not everyone who receives trust is _worthy_ of it. Trust is something that needs to be earned, not freely given. We don't how many others may or may not be involved Diane. For now - and always, really - it's best to 'keep yer eyes open and yer ears on!' <G> Love All, trust -very few!- :) Regards, John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 1 UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 04:29:27 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 10:20:24 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Velez >Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:58:03 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: 'What If' Game >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >>Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:22:56 +0100 >>Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:17:43 -0400 >>Subject: UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Randles >>>Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:53:24 -0500 >>>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>>Subject: Re: 'What If' Game >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >Previously, I wrote: >>>There is a difference between something that is really "illegal" >>>and simply "unscrupulous". You can't put someone in jail for >>>being a jerk. If the subject did not sign an agreement with the >>>researcher, then the subject would be hard pressed to get any >>>relief if the info about them was used for other purposes than >>>what was intended. >Jenny replied: >>As I thought the above made clear the data protection act _is_ a >>law of the land - ie an act - which means it does determine what >>is legal and illegal not merely a self imposed code. Hello Roger, Jenny, All, Roger wrote: >As I understand the law you speak of, it does not apply to any >and all info the researcher has; it only applies to info >contained on a hard-drive and ONLY if it can be proven to exist >on that drive. I'm not splitting hairs here to prove a point. >For someone in research to risk whatever "reputation" they have >must mean there is some serious money at stake; certainly enough >to avoid the legal landmines that they know ahead of time will >be there. >More to the point at hand, I do not believe there are "data >police" that will take someone away if they breach the above >code of conduct. The injured party would, I believe, have to go >to civil, not criminal court to find relief. Not necessarily Roger. The 140 individuals attempted to have the case tried in court as a "medical malpractice" suit. (Breach of confidence and illegal transfer of private medical records) But, after two+ years of waiting and after going through a dozen attorneys, they were informed that the lawyers didn't think they could generate enough money in damages if they did win to cover the expenses of the necessarily lengthy litigation process. In other words, they declined to take the case pro bono and when these folks couldn't come up with some moola-boola up front they tried to discourage the litigants by telling them that they'd probably lose. Catch 22 for the 140 poor bastards that got _used_ by the individual investigator in question. Maybe he knew in advance of making the transaction that it would be a tough case to litigate. He/she may have figured, 'I have more to gain than to (possibly) lose.' As you say, there are no "data police" in ufology. If not for the fact that it is now a topic of public debate (for which I am eternally grateful to you, all) he/she may have walked away scott free - in terms of public awareness anyway. That has a much weaker chance of happening now with so many beginning to focus on the issue. :) >As John Velez pointed out, the average person can't really afford >to get into protracted litigation. Maybe I'll apply for a 'Grant' from the same guy that bought the 140 abductee files so that I can splatter his name and the names of those that sold him their files all over the place. Let the indictments fly! See you in court honey! Sue me! <LOL>'Twood that it twer! :) >Rape victims suffer this consequence in the courts all the time >and they have far more proof than an abductee would ever have. Neat analogy! >If your code of conduct doesn't prevent that or assist the >subject when it happens, then it is more of an ideal than a >reality. Better than nothing, you say? Another distinction >without a difference, I think. When a dog has no teeth, the burgler climbs the fence, throws him a soft treat, and simply goes about his business. I agree, if it doesn't have the power to prevent, it is just a "distinction without a difference." The British have a much keener sensibility about social rules and behavior than we do. This is like the Wild West over here Jenny. If you don't stick a gun barrel in their ear and let them hear you cock the hammer, like Rodney Dangerfield, you won't get any respect! <LOL> Regards to all, John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 1 UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 11:31:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 11:33:32 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Hammond >Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 04:29:27 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: 'What If' Game >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sat, 01 Luly 2000 16:58:03 -0500 >>From: Liz Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Re: 'What If' Game >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >In other words, they declined to take the case pro bono and when >these folks couldn't come up with some moola-boola up front they >tried to discourage the litigants by telling them that they'd >probably lose. >Catch 22 for the 140 poor bastards that got _used_ by the >individual investigator in question. >Maybe he knew in advance of making the transaction that it would >be a tough case to litigate. He/she may have figured, 'I have >more to gain than to (possibly) lose.' As you say, there are no >"data police" in ufology. If not for the fact that it is now a >topic of public debate (for which I am eternally grateful to >you, all) he/she may have walked away scott free - in terms of >public awareness anyway. That has a much weaker chance of >happening now with so many beginning to focus on the issue. :) >>As John Velez pointed out, the average person can't really afford >>to get into protracted litigation. Dear John: First of all, thanks for 'standing watch' like this for the rest of us. This would probably never have come to light for the majority of us if not for your willingness to tell it like it is. Tell me, has anyone given any thought to setting up a sort of defense fund for these poor people? Like you, I am in no condition financially to fund a lawsuit, but if each person who feels strongly that this issue is as reprehensible as it is could send in even a small amount, if that's what they could afford, perhaps these guys might have a chance at their day in court. Aren't there any other "money bags" out there who might kick into the kitty in the interest of Abductee privacy and safety? I say safety because I know quite a few abducted who are afraid that the day may be fast approaching when it won't be 'safe' to be known as an abductee. I know that I, and my abductee buddies, would be horrified if we found that someone was even given access to our personal records to _read_, let alone _sell_ them outright! As you said, John: >This is like the Wild West over here Jenny. If you don't stick a >gun barrel in their ear and let them hear you cock the hammer, >like Rodney Dangerfield, you won't get any respect! <LOL> You are absolutely right on this John. And if this guy/gal gets away scot free what's to stop the next one and the next and so on. There are so many people of dubious credentials out there calling themselves "researchers" and gaining the trust of frightened and gullible abductees. That's quite a pool of information to go after! When the average person hears "Researcher" they think, Hopkins, Mack and Jacobs. The truth is the woods are crawling with people who decided to make themselves "researchers". While a few have at least some form of training or degree, usually in psychology or a related field, the truth is anybody and their Granny can just up and call themselves a "Researcher" and they are one! Those are the ones who really frighten me! They gain these people's trust, perform hypnosis on them, have them provide their confidential medical records, etc. And they aren't even qualified to be walking the neighbors dog! It would be wonderful, first and foremost for the 140 people injured in all this. But also for the future, perhaps a judgement of some sort now can prevent this from happening again. Just a thought I had, John. But if someone in that group would like to get a fund going, I would be among the first to contribute. Yours, Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 1 UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 10:56:20 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 12:01:24 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Evans >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 04:29:27 -0400 >Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 10:20:24 -0400 >Subject: UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Velez >>Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:58:03 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: 'What If' Game >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Previously, I wrote: >>More to the point at hand, I do not believe there are "data >>police" that will take someone away if they breach the above >>code of conduct. The injured party would, I believe, have to go >>to civil, not criminal court to find relief. John replied: >Not necessarily Roger. The 140 individuals attempted to have the >case tried in court as a "medical malpractice" suit. (Breach of >confidence and illegal transfer of private medical records) But, >after two+ years of waiting and after going through a dozen attorneys, >they were informed that the lawyers didn't think they could generate >enough money in damages if they did win to cover the expenses of the >necessarily lengthy litigation process. >In other words, they declined to take the case pro bono and when >these folks couldn't come up with some moola-boola up front they >tried to discourage the litigants by telling them that they'd >probably lose. Hi, John! I think there needs to be some clarification on this issue, since the term "illegal" has been thrown around like the term "Coke". (You want a Coke? / Sure! / Yeah? What kind? / Oh, I'll take a Dr. Pepper... ) For instance, if you have a patent on something, it is "illegal" to steal someone else's design. However, there are no 'patent police' that will kick down the doors and take names. In fact, if you do not hire lawyers and vigorously pursue offenders that have infringed on your patent, your claim on the patent can be put in jeopardy. This is known as "complacency"; knowing about the violation and doing nothing. It infers that your inaction is, in effect, approval for them to use the design. Likewise, people with copyrights are in the same boat. There are no 'copyright police' to protect your interests. You have to hire lawyers and do it yourself. Above, you maintained that the lawyers would not take the case because of the lack of revenue involved. If this were in a criminal court, the plaintiffs would not even have to hire lawyers, in the first place. That's the job of a District Attorney or Attorney General's office, depending on the extent of the criminal activity. The only time you hire a lawyer to prosecute is in a civil court, not a criminal court. If you recall, O.J. Simpson won in criminal court but lost in civil court over the same issues. This just goes to show that it really is 'every man for himself' when it comes to the law. In short, the law is not open to interpretation... unless you can afford an interpreter! Subjects that have been violated by a researcher's lack of ethics would have a very difficult time, I think. In fact, the more money that is on the line, the greater the degree of difficulty they would probably face. People tend to go to any lengths to protect profit margins; and that, unfortunately, includes the attorneys that the subject might hire to pursue a civil case. If there isn't enough of a profit margin, then no dice. Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 1 UpDate: Sale - 1970-80 Flying Saucer Review (British) From: Tom Benson <sparkle@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 12:09:31 -0300 Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 12:17:08 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Sale - 1970-80 Flying Saucer Review (British) Hi List: I have a run of the subject periodicals for sale, for the 1970-1980 period. Most issues are originals in very good condition. I also have a couple 60's FSR issues and photocopies of others. Please snail me you address for list at: P.O. Box 1174, Trenton, New Jersey 08606-1174, U.S.A. (or) e-mail your address to: sparkle@earthlink.net Tom Benson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 1 UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Randles From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 17:23:20 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 14:02:36 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Randles >Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:58:03 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: 'What If' Game >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >>Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:22:56 +0100 >>Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:17:43 -0400 >>Subject: UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Randles >>>Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:53:24 -0500 >>>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>>Subject: Re: 'What If' Game >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >As I understand the law you speak of, it does not apply to any >and all info the researcher has; it only applies to info >contained on a hard-drive and ONLY if it can be proven to exist >on that drive. I'm not splitting hairs here to prove a point. Hi, I think - with respect - that we should leave this discussion after today as we are really arguing in circles and distracting this list from other key issues. So I intend not to reply on this matter again. I hope you understand my reasons. I feel the list would prefer it to be halted at this point. But, yes, the data protection act (DPA) covers only electronic info. However, most UFO groups keep records on computer these days. BUFORA and UFOIN certainly do. We had to study the DPA when it became law to see how it effected us and it does provide a legal requirement not to release information about individual witnesses - otherwise the association could face legal redress. This does not need the witness to go to court. There certainly are cases where the authority set up to enforce the DPA (it has its own officers to do this) have taken people to court and have imposed large fines on offending bodies. I personally have used the DPA when a company tried to deny me banking facilities owing to misdemeanours involving a previous occupant of the house before we moved here. I successfully argued that the private records that were obtained to 'check me out' in the process of wrongly denying facilities were illegally obtained under the DPA. It was a breach of civil liberties. It cost me nothing and involved no lawyers. So I know the DPA has teeth and can be used and that as such it is a degree of deterrent to any ufologist who thinks its okay to hand over their files for money. BUFORA - for example - in putting witness data onto its web site has to follow the rules of the DPA and exclude personally identifying information. So it has a very real effect on Ufology here. >For someone in research to risk whatever "reputation" they have >must mean there is some serious money at stake; certainly enough >to avoid the legal landmines that they know ahead of time will >be there. I don't dispute that, as I have said in previous replies. Absolutely nothing we do will prevent someone selling their soul for money if the cash is big enough and they need it badly enough. No DPA, COP, piece of paper signed for a witness will be at all valuable if the ufologist gets offered a six figure sum to pass on their information to someone. This discussion (which has ended up being about the code and about UFOIN finances - although I don't know how it got to those!) started off with a legitimate concern about witness details being sold by a nameless Ufologist to a nameless person for no explained reason. I don't know if that has ever really happened - or would happen. But what I have been trying to explain is the way that we in the UK have endeavoured to circumvent such possibilities by sending a clear message (via the creation of the COP) to the UFO community as to what behaviour is considered unacceptable. Any such breaches would (and indeed have) lead to censure, public exposure and even removal from the group. Of course, that wont stop someone who sees big money and has no scruples. But it will deter those with morals (because they know the rules as dictated by their peers) and it will give some fuel to any witness who decides to take a personal action via civil courts against a defaulting researcher because they can demonstrate to the court that the investigator violated the rules of his own peer group and was excommunicated by his colleagues for doing so. I dare say a judge would regard that as sound evidence that the person acted in a way that was not considered appropriate under the circumstances. Just as a civil action against a doctor 'struck off' by the BMA for actions considered unworthy would be viewed more favourably than one where the doctor continued to practice and his behaviour was thus apparently condoned as reasonable by his colleagues. >If your code of conduct doesn't prevent that or assist the >subject when it happens, then it is more of an ideal than a >reality. Better than nothing, you say? Another distinction >without a difference, I think. Just because a COP does not stop an unethical person does not mean that - as you put it - it fails to 'assist the subject'. I thought I had set out many ways in which the COP does 'assist the subject' and if this list doesn't see any sense behind them then there really is not much point in endlessly repeating them. But ponder this. An attitude of - oh why bother, setting rules wont make a difference, people who want to act irresponsibly still will do so, is an admission of defeat. It creates a feeling amongst ufologists that people don't care. That they might as well act as they choose because their colleagues cannot be bothered to do anything about it. That malaise can easily spread and sow seeds of a feeling that we might as well sell our data because nobody will stop us. The COP at least achieves the objective of showing that we do care and that certain things will not just be tolerated. I happen to believe that will in the long term make it less likely that a mood will prevail where money talks more than ethics. But even if I am wrong the crucial thing is that we did not just sit here debating on a list whether it is worth doing something or not. We got up and did it and put it into operation and stood by it sufficiently to have the guts to use the COP to censure real ufologists publicly if they behaved improperly. If you feel that's a waste of time, fair enough. If you don't then the best thing to do now is stop talking on this List and start acting. For talk never solved any problem - only putting talking into action can do that. Best wishes, Jenny Randles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 1 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Stacy From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 11:52:10 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 14:04:35 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Stacy >Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:15:04 -0400 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >The money came from Robert Bigelow, and was given so Budd and >Dave (along with sociologist Ron Westrum) could commission the >Roper organization to conduct a nationwide poll in the United >States. The poll was designed to determine how many Americans >had had experiences that Budd and Dave think indicate possible >abductions. >The results of the poll are highly controversial, and I won't >unearth once again the arguments on either side. As for the >$200,000 amount, I've never heard it mentioned before, but the >sum seems entirely reasonable for one of America's best known >polling firms to conduct a large-scale survey. Greg, Don't forget that the grant also allowed for the free distribution of 100,000 copies of the final report. Printing and mailing costs of same would have been a pretty penny, too. Bigelow's National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS) redid the poll in 1998, again using Roper and polling 5947 people. Details at: http://www.nidsci.org/researchnews.html Scroll down to the bottom, or use: http://www.nidsci.org/news/roper_surveys.html Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 1 UpDate: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 13:01:50 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 14:09:10 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Bourdais >Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:37:02 -0500 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Stacy >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:00:41 -0500 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:18:56 -0400 (EDT) >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>>Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>But most of all, I mean that _no one_ has the right to attack a >>>man, calling him a liar, unless he can prove that the entire >>>message is a lie. >>This is strange. If a man is caught lying about one or more >>things, then he's a liar, pure and simple. It's up to you to now >>prove what he _wasn't_ lying about, not us. >Dennis, Jan, and everybody, >I find the exchange regarding Corso just plain disheartening, a >sad commentary on the state of ufology at the beginning of the >millennium. Jan Aldrich and I have often discussed the state of >ufology, and I've always taken the more optimistic view, what we >might call the half-full-glass theory. More gloomy about these >things than I, Jan sees a half-empty glass. Sad to say, I'm >beginning to see it myself. <snip> >That notion is the only one for which his defenders demand >evidence, and indeed a variety of impeccably well-informed >critics -- Jan, Brad Sparks, Karl Pflock, Stan Friedman, and >others -- have produced abundant evidence for what any >intelligent observer should have been able to figure out just by >reading this sloping forehead, knuckle-dragger of a book: that >it's a crock from beginning to end, intended for rubes who'll >believe anything except that somebody could be lying to them. >Why is it so hard to believe that Corso made up the story to >make money? As a historian of the UFO phenomenon, I found >nothing remotely plausible in the book's pages. It seemed clear >to me then -- and remains clear to me now -- that it is nothing >more than a lamely written science-fiction novel, based clumsily >in '90s UFO folklore, masquerading not very convincingly as >something else. <snip> To Jerry Clark and the List The Corso story is a very sad one, I agree, I already said it. Many mistakes, fantastic claims, and even lies. The argument that, if a person has lied, then it's better to drop the whole story, is valid to me. It is a reasonable decision, and it is the thing to do regarding Corso. That is my personal opinion. But, from a more detached viewpoint, it does not mean necessarily that all what Corso said is lies. In the end, a question remains, unanswerable (for the time being): could this man have invented entirely his story? From A to Z? That he saw a body in Fort Riley? That he had his hands on Roswell debris? That he saw an autopsy report? Maybe he lied on all that, but then it's a sort of mystery to me. Does not look like the man I saw. To change the subject, has anyone an opinion or a comment to make on the recent revelations of the lawyer Daniel Sheehan, as reported in the last issue of the Filer's Files (No 25)? This man says he has seen documents on a UFO crash, and on the ET presence, in secret archives, at the US National Archives. Is this credible testimony, or not? I can confirm the contents of his speech - he did the same at the Laughlin conference last March. I would be quite interested by any comment on this. Gildas Bourdais
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 1 UpDate: Implications - Lemire From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 13:27:01 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 14:17:21 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Implications - Lemire Greetings List, The recent barrage of Corso and Cometa posts, along with many other threads within the UpDates List, revealed something to me. A correspondent of mine, whose observations and comments I've quoted below, made me realize that the _end_result_ of these types of message threads closely resemble the objectives of skeptics, scientists, and governmental authorities whom we seek to condemn for these same reasons. Do those that post here ever consider the possible implications of those posts? Has anyone here considered the effect their posts have on a UFO witness who is contemplating reporting a sighting? How different are these posts, in effect, from the effects of, say for instance, The Condon Report, or other similar reports or propaganda, designed to denigrate the UFO witness or prevent them from reporting it at all? I've quoted below from a message I received from someone with a simple curiosity about Corso's experiences. The results could've been very damaging to the witness, if read before reporting a sighting, as well as to the UFO Investigator/Researcher who actively seeks these often unreported UFO sightings. We often condemn those skeptics and scientists for inadvertently causing a significant amount of unreported sightings while the results of some of our posts are in effect causing the same outcome! >The M.O. of some of these people (revealed by their posts) >reminded me of the Spanish Inquisition, and for the sake of >witnesses I really hope none of them are field investigators. If >I had found this list first, and followed some of these posts I >would have NEVER reported my sighting (especially if I was 23 >and in the mindset I was at the time of my sighting). This also >has given me further insight into some of the complaints I've >received about treatment at the hands of the so-called >experts/investigators by more than one witness/experiencer I >have corresponded with. I would like to see a bit of consideration put into these endless argumentative posts which are wasting an endless amount of time and energy which could be devoted to studying and investigating the phenomena as it is occurring _today_! Have we become much too impersonal and inconsiderate in seeking a means to an "end"? We must not alienate the source! Todd Lemire Michigan UFO CENTRAL http://members.home.net/tlemire/UFOCENTRAL.html -- Knowledge progresses by the refutation as well as the confirmation of hypotheses, and the only essential is not to persist stubbornly in obsolete habits of mind. Aime' Michel- Flying Saucers and the Straight Line Mystery
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 1 UpDate: Re: Implications - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 15:27:22 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 16:34:49 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Implications - Hammond >Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 13:27:01 -0400 >From: Liz Hammond mailto:lizzz@worldnet.att.net >Subject: Implications >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 13:27:01 -0400 >From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com> >Subject: Implications >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Do those that post here ever consider the possible implications >of those posts? >Has anyone here considered the effect their posts have on a >UFO witness who is contemplating reporting a sighting? >How different are these posts, in effect, from the effects of, >say for instance, The Condon Report, or other similar reports or >propaganda, designed to denigrate the UFO witness or prevent them >from reporting it at all? >I've quoted below from a message I received from someone with a >simple curiosity about Corso's experiences. The results could've >been very damaging to the witness, if read before reporting a >sighting, as well as to the UFO Investigator/Researcher who >actively seeks these often unreported UFO sightings. We often >condemn those skeptics and scientists for inadvertently causing a >significant amount of unreported sightings while the results of >some of our posts are in effect causing the same outcome! >>The M.O. of some of these people (revealed by their posts) >>reminded me of the Spanish Inquisition, and for the sake of >>witnesses I really hope none of them are field investigators. If >>I had found this list first, and followed some of these posts I >>would have NEVER reported my sighting (especially if I was 23 >>and in the mindset I was at the time of my sighting). This also >>has given me further insight into some of the complaints I've >>received about treatment at the hands of the so-called >>experts/investigators by more than one witness/experiencer I >>have corresponded with. >I would like to see a bit of consideration put into these >endless argumentative posts which are wasting an endless amount >of time and energy which could be devoted to studying and >investigating the phenomena as it is occurring _today_! Have we >become much too impersonal and inconsiderate in seeking a means >to an "end"? >We must not alienate the source! Dear Todd: A few posts back I said the following: "It makes one wonder what the real purpose of some on this List is? Do you really want to learn the truth? Or do you just like having these little hissy fits? It certainly shows why you don't hear much from frightened abductees. Reading this sort of thing, and watching what seems to be of real importance to so many here is off putting to say the least!" I'm so happy to see that I am not the only person that feels this way. If I were a novice in this field and came across this List, it would effectivley deter me from approaching anyone in this business for help. While there is some wonderful information exchanged here, it often seems drowned out by the rants, nitpicking, apparent attempts to humiliate, and in general keeping the tone of the Posts as far as possible away from the subjects of UFOs or ETs. There have been several occasions in the past when I wondered if this might not be happening on purpose. That perhaps someone had their own agenda and getting into any real, meaningful discussion of the issues was not part of it. I have no doubt that the List Owners work hard to see this doesn't happen, but they must have to let the threads "fall as they may" to some extent. But, I must line up behind you here Todd. There is a very real possibility that those many of you want to speak to will not come forward for fear of being subjected to some of the nonsense that goes on. How is any research being done, anyway, when it seems so many spend the bulk of their time arguing on the Internet? Yours, Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 1 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 16:26:33 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 16:38:55 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Mortellaro >Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 11:52:10 -0500 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:15:04 -0400 >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> ><snip> >>The money came from Robert Bigelow, and was given so Budd and >>Dave (along with sociologist Ron Westrum) could commission the >>Roper organization to conduct a nationwide poll in the United >>States. The poll was designed to determine how many Americans >>had had experiences that Budd and Dave think indicate possible >>abductions. >>The results of the poll are highly controversial, and I won't >>unearth once again the arguments on either side. As for the >>$200,000 amount, I've never heard it mentioned before, but the >>sum seems entirely reasonable for one of America's best known >>polling firms to conduct a large-scale survey. >Greg, >Don't forget that the grant also allowed for the free >distribution of 100,000 copies of the final report. Printing and >mailing costs of same would have been a pretty penny, too. >Bigelow's National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS) redid >the poll in 1998, again using Roper and polling 5947 people. >Details at: >http://www.nidsci.org/researchnews.html >Scroll down to the bottom, or use: >http://www.nidsci.org/news/roper_surveys.html Gentlemen, Listers and EBK (and gentle women on the assumption there are still some of those around!), Even more interesting is that the people at NIDS were not able to apply any reason for the decrease. They concluded " ... However, this downward trend is counter to the claims of skeptics who profess that the population has been contaminated by movies, television, and magazine articles about UFO abductions ..." Perhaps the material that some of us discern as being roughly the equivelent of gibberish, is helping people to make up their own minds as to what is fact and what is fancy. I take back everything I said about researchers. As for "Trondant," I could not find it when I asked my "friend" Merriam. Perhaps someone may illucidate? The last time I used that word was when I was flat on my kisser on the floor in a pub in Torontia and some jerk was saying something is French Canadian which sounded a lot like "Trondant." But I was later informed that the gentleman was calling me a bad name. Had to do with my parentage. On my mother's side I think. We have a very special word for such in the Palermian tongue. But _we_ say it with our hands, not just our words. Much more affective, effective. Whatever. Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 2 UpDate: Magonia Monthly Supplement, No. 28 From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 22:09:53 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 10:05:03 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Magonia Monthly Supplement, No. 28 MAGONIA Monthly Supplement Editor: JOHN HARNEY No. 28 June 2000 EDITORIAL As all Forteans and Magonia readers will be aware, it is not just UFOs that should arouse our scepticism. A recent item in The Daily Telegraph (23 June 2000) tells of "a tranquil Italian village" which is allegedly being terrorised by thieves who climb drainpipes, enter bedrooms and drug the occupants in their sleep before ransacking their homes. "Almost everyone" in the village of Sutri has been or knows a victim "put to sleep" with a narcotic spray. It is alleged that last year the gang staged two or three robberies a night and that on some occasions "they drugged and robbed the occupants of whole blocks of flats". Curiously, the reporter makes no mention of police comments or investigations. The story seems implausible to me; it reminds me of the Mattoon gasser . . . PROPELLER-POWERED SAUCERS Martin Kottmeyer Early in the morning of 25 August 1952, a gentleman named William Squyres headed off to his job at a radio station in Pittsburgh, Kansas. He was driving his new Jeep station wagon. When he was about a quarter mile from the main highway he saw off to his right, hovering ten feet above a two acre field of grass used for grazing cattle, an unusual craft. It was platter-shaped, roughly 70 feet long, 40 feet wide, and about 15 feet through the midsection. It looked like it was made of aluminium and had several large windows arranged from top to rear. There was a medium blue continuous light inside and he could see in the front window the head and shoulders of a man sitting motionless. This seems to be the first Close Encounter of the Third Kind in America to make it into the Project Blue Book files. It achieved some added cachet by having made it into the Battelle Institute study as a case with sufficient information and credibility to be considered useful. The more famous Flatwoods Monster CE3K would occur roughly two weeks later. Six days earlier, Sonny Desvergers, a Florida scoutmaster, was knocked unconscious by a ball of red fire aimed from a flying saucer. The Desvergers case would be deemed a hoax, but the charred grass at the scene would remain a loose end for ufologists to play with. This was all happening on the back edge of the massive 1952 Flap that peaked with the famous Washington National radar UFOs in mid-July. Squyres said there seemed to be a lot of activity or movement in the midsection of the craft. He could not be sure if it was human, but it did not have a regular pattern to it. He was able to view the object for about a half-minute before it began a rapid vertical ascent reaching a tremendous rate of acceleration as it disappeared into the sky. Left behind in the field there was a sixty foot circle of grass that was pressed down. Some loose grass was laid on top as if drawn in by suction from the vertical ascent. Several witnesses confirmed the presence of matted grass. Samples showed no traces of burning, radioactivity, or other stress. Air Force investigators obtained uniform praise in their search f or character references. Local businessmen had known Squyres for over ten years and considered him completely reliable. For those still considering a hoax, it is worth adding that the surrounding terrain was rather rough - ditch, fence, tall weeds - and he had an artificial leg. Writing some 25 years later, J. Allen Hynek remarked: "I remember puzzling long and hard over this case, one of the very early ones received by Blue Book." His initial assessment was that it was a hallucination, but he felt he could not accept it any more. Regardless of the "level of reality" of the event, he no longer entertained any doubt Squyres had "a true, tangible experience" (The Hynek UFO Report, pp. 200-203). This would seem pretty impressive. We have here a CE3K with extensive physical evidence probably beyond the ability of the claimant to manufacture. How many other entity cases can you say that about? Yet you won't find this on anybody's best-ten list, past or future. The problem lies in a damnably devilish detail: "Another identifiable feature was that along the edges of the object . . . there was a series of propellers about six to seven inches in diameter spaced closely together; these propellers were mounted on a bracket so they revolved in a horizontal plane on the edge of the object. The propellers were rotating at a high rate." This doesn't sound very extraterrestrial and Squyres himself wasn't thinking in those terms. "When pressed, he stated that he thought it was probably a new device of the government." This of course was the favoured idea among those believing saucers were real in the Fifties. Those who wrote books may have felt that saucers were extraterrestrial, but polls showed the public wasn't buying it quite yet. Articles by journalists in major magazines also favoured the idea that saucers were part of some secret weapons project - possibly Soviet, but more probably American. Let's state the obvious. No craft like this was flying in 1952. The Air Force contracted something vaguely similar called the Avrocar that was eventually built and completed in 1959. It was developed in secret but the design was declassified in 1971. It involved a single fan in the centre, it was much smaller - 18 feet diameter by 3 feet thick, was test flown in California only, and was completely unstable above an altitude of 3 feet2E It was deemed unsuitable for high-speed flight. (1) It is flatly impossible for Squyres to have been watching an American-made flying saucer. No saucer nowadays sports such an array of propellers. UFO historian Loren Gross phrased the paradox more universally: "Propellers just are not reported on UFOs." (2) Emphatically, no craft piloted by Greys or other species of aliens has even reported this feature. Nor does it seem likely any ever would. From an aeronautical standpoint, it is a nightmarish design. The turbulence from such an array of propellers would promise problems of stability and control. Engine failure of any sort - e.g. a bird hitting a propeller blade - would cause instant disaster with little time for diagnosis and solution. Charitably, one can say it shows a whimsically inventive visual sensibility, but one unconcerned with safety. The Squyres case is the most impressive example of a UFO with propellers. It does not stand alone. A month later, on 26 September 1952, a gentleman named Carlo Rossi, in Italy, had a similar close encounter of the third kind. The drawing in the press shows a man wearing an aviator's cap with goggles worn atop it looking out of a circular hole on a blister atop a flying disc. A round glass window is resting open beside the opening. The shape of the craft is basically flat like a hockey puck. Above it is a Christmas tree of helicopter blades. The bottom blade is roughly the same diameter as the disc, the next above is about two-thirds in size, and above is a third one smaller in the same proportion. It very faintly recalls Landell's Screw Airship of 1863 (Bullard, T.E. The Airship File - Supplement Two, 1990, p. 98). Beneath the disc is a cage-like compartment and a system of three-bladed propellers that spins parallel to the plane of the disc. It seems even more whimsical and improbable than Squyres's report. With the top blades all smaller than the disc, the airflow would all be directed down on to the disc and then flow horizontally outward. Could such a thing even fly? What about the stresses involved in blades creating turbulent airflow through which lower and larger blades must spin? You'd never get me into such a contraption (Boncompagni, Conti, Lamperi, Ricci, Sani. UFO in Italia, Corrado Tedeschi Editore (France), pp. 138-43). There are lesser examples hiding in UFO catalogues. In Bloecher's study of the 1947 Wave, you can find the case of Mr and Mrs Gordon Nielson of Waukesha, Wisconsin. Returning home on the evening of 6 July 1947, both saw a saucer-shaped object "with a propeller on front, larger than the saucer itself". They saw a cub plane apparently giving chase, but it was easily outdistanced by the saucer. On the same evening, Mrs Clarence Lesseson near Minneapolis, Minnesota saw a disc-shaped object about the size of a ten-inch plate flying over her house at tree-top level. It had a propeller, but instead of up front like the Nielsen's it was on the rear edge. (3) A standard ETH argument holds that if cases share obscure details, that demonstrates the reality of both cases. Two cases on the same evening share this oddity of a saucer with a propeller. Media seems an unlikely explanation. There were no propellers in the Arnold news accounts. This would seem to be yet another argument in favour of the reality of these absurdities, if one takes care to regard the front to rear switcheroo as irrelevant which it could conceivably be. Bloecher's report includes more ambiguous examples like a multiple witness case in which Mr Harry Hoertz of Akron, Ohio saw "a light with a propelling device". (4) There's also a pair of cases where the craft is all-propeller and no saucer. (5) It needs to be emphasised that this was not in any sense a major trait of early saucers. Jet and rocket propulsion is much more on display in 1947 with over three dozen cases including details like blue flames, fiery tails, and vapour trails. This makes more sense for cutting edge aviation in the post-war period than propeller-driven saucers. Still, propellers were plausible. A few Earth-based secret weapons had involved them in then recent experience, i.e. WW2. (6) The Nielson- Lesseson coincidence may derive from parallel reasoning following shared premises and the fact that there were 157 cases on that date to play with. (7) Project Blue Book offered no explanation of the Squyres case. (8) Neither shall I and I happily offer my vote for it being one of the ten most unexplainable cases in my library. In saying this, I am only saying that all solutions fail in some fashion with the evidence available to us. I concur with Gross, the timing looks hinky, but I can't work up a solution that I'd be comfortable with. (9) It is thoroughly useless as evidence for the ETH or any other theory. It has some nice morals, however. The look of UFOs has changed enough to say the Squyres case is tied to its era. It is hard to imagine such a propeller-driven saucer appearing today. It also a salutary lesson in how the standard arguments used to support the reality of saucers get weird conclusions when applied consistently with no role for broader frameworks of interpretation. Whatever else one may care to say about Squyres's experience, the, as Hynek said, "level of reality" it appears rooted in is a negative one. References 1. Blake, William. "The Avro VZ-9 Flying Saucer", Skeptical Inquirer, 16, 3, Spring 1992, 287-291 2. Gross, Loren. UFOs: A History: 1952: August, 66 3. Bloecher, Ted. Report of the UFO Wave of 1947, II-16 4. Ibid., III-1 5. Ibid., II-17/18 6. Ford, Brian. German Secret Weapons: Blueprint for Mars, Ballantine, 1969 7. Bloecher, I-10 8. Gross, op. cit., 72 9. Gross, op. cit., 66, 68, 72 LITERARY CRITICISM Reviews by Peter Rogerson Nigel Watson (contributing editor). The Scareship Mystery: A Survey of Phantom Airship Scares 1909-1918, Domra Books, 65 Constable Road, Corby, Northamptonshire NN18 ORT, 2000. GBP 9.95. David Clarke. "Scareships over Britain: The Airship Wave of 1909", in Fortean Studies, Vol. 6, pp. 39-63 At the turn of the 20th century visionaries began to dream that the new science of aeronautics would bring universal peace on the Earth by love or fear. Love because as people travelled more they would get to know each other as human beings and no longer as sinister foreigners; fear because the destructive power of aerial bombardment would render war unthinkable. The popular reaction, however, as these studies show, was far less idealistic. As aviation moved from the being a promise to being a reality, the skies became ominous, filled with menaces. Mysterious enemy aircraft and airships were being seen everywhere. These outbreaks, the scareship panics, are the subject of The Scareship Mystery. The publication history of this book might well be one of the longest and most tortuous on record, taking almost fifteen years to get into print, as publishers turned it down in favour of Heinz 57 varieties of new age nonsense. In it Nigel Watson, and his colleagues David Clarke, Granville Oldroyd, Mr X, Robert Bartholomew and Thomas "Eddie" Bullard examine these phantom airship epidemics from 1909 to 1918. David Clarke has updated and greatly expanded his contribution to this collection, in his article in the latest Fortean Studies. What emerges is the first complete portrait of the "scareship" or phantom airship waves yet produced, waves in which strange or ambiguous lights in the sky were reported as airships or aircraft often possessed of amazing powers. These waves began in 1909, with outbreaks in Britain, New Zealand and the United States. At first there was quite a distinction between the reportage in Britain and New Zealand, where the scareships were interpreted as German (or in New Zealand, also perhaps Japanese) spy planes, harbingers of wars to come, and in the US, where a more light- hearted, optimistic theme, the amazing inventions of one Wallace Tillinghast, prevailed. The wide Atlantic and hopes of neutrality managed to keep the sense of oppression at bay. The airships returned in 1912-13, and as tension spilled out into war, they became merged into a general war panic within Britain, and spread through the English-speaking world, surfacing in English-language communities in South Africa (rumoured to come from the German territory of South West Africa, now Namibia) and Canada (where they were rumoured to have come from the United States. As the war progressed the scareships came to the United States; the Atlantic was no longer wide enough. The actual division of labour in the book is as follows. Nigel Watson contributes the most papers, on the New Zealand invasion of 1909, the USA airship of 1909-10, two chapters on the 1912-13 British airship scare, the 1914 South African mystery plane scare, and scareships in the USA 1914-1918. As mentioned above David Clarke contributes the chapter on 1909 in Britain, Granville Oldroyd on 1914 airship rumours on Britain, Mr X on the wartime scares in Canada, while Robert Bartholomew and Eddie Bullard provide a sociological summary. All the articles are to a high standard, and I am sure would do professional historians proud. The authors are, of course, ufologists and Forteans, and it is to an extent from that perspective that the book is written, (David Clarke's revised paper in Fortean Studies aims to be more general and to marry ufological and wider historical concerns), Nigel and his colleagues tracing the use of this material in ufological writing. At first only the most dramatic events, chiefly from 1909 survived. Mr Lethbridge the Punch and judy man, and his alleged landed airship and crew being the prime example, being featured in the books of Charles Fort and then reprinted in inaccurate forms in a variety of UFO books. The first "serious" look at the airship reports in Britain was by the psychologist and ufologist Carl Grove who produced a catalogue of airship reports in Flying Saucer Review. These were still treated as isolated anomalies, to an extent divorced from the background. Grove was a supporter of Aime Michel, and tended to interpret the airship reports as part of the process by which "Magonia" sought to manipulate human history. In Grove's case, as with Michel, it was never quite clear whether this "Magonia" was meant to be a physical alien technology, or an alias for God. Nigel and his co-workers eschew such interpretations, and opt by and large for psychosocial interpretations, most notably those of rumour theory and of moral and social panics; wherein all sorts of vague and ambiguous stimuli are perceived and remembered according to a template of the fears of the time. They point out that rumours of strange things seen in the sky, both menacing and promising, have a long history. They also note how many of the themes which are now commonplace in ufology; vague dream-like encounters, alleged men in black, ambiguous "physical evidence", the reports of lights exhibiting "falling leaf motion" (autokinesis?), or bright stars and planets being perceived as lights or searchlights on dark objects, etc. The idea behind the scareship mystery, the enemy in the sky, possessed of a superior technology mutated into the modern ETH/UFO legend in basically the years between 1947 and 1952. It must be remembered that the original flying saucer panic of 1947 was concerned less with Martians than with fears of superior Russian technology. Through the writings of people like Keyhoe this Russian threat became transformed into the Martian threat, and the Venusian promise. These ideas, however, did not spring up newly formed from Keyhoe's breast; as far back as 1897 a small minority of people sought extraterrestrial (i.e. Martian) explanations for strange lights in the sky, and Nigel brings to our attention a correspondent in the Otago Daily Times (New Zealand) of 19 July 1909, who formulated perhaps the first space brothers theory, older and wiser Martians making peaceful visi ts in their atomic powered spaceships. Reading through these reports and stories, one gets something of the sense of the unity of the deep imagination, whether expressed in dreams and visions, lies and hoaxes, lacunae in perception and memory, or in more conventional channels. These are excellent contributions to ufology and history alike and meet really high standards. Given the time that has elapsed since Scareships was first written, a second edition would be welcome shortly. Or perhaps Nigel and David could collaborate on a Timewatch TV documentary to get a wider audience? LETTER I thought Nigel Watson's review of the Exwick conference was turgid to say the least - everyone knows "Nicholas" Redfern is referred to as Nick - and he seems to have been taken in by most of the nonsense uttered by the speakers. Worst of all he displays his ignorance of ufology by saying the original UFOIN/NUFOIS files were lost. NUFOIS handed all the files over to Philip Mantle in the late 80s or early 90s. They languished in my filing cabinets for a while before coming to rest in the MUFORA archive in Manchester, where they remain freely available to anyone who wants to see them. Andy Roberts, Brighouse, West Yorkshire MAGONIA Monthly Supplement. Letters and short articles welcome. Letters will be considered for publication unless otherwise indicated. Please send all contributions to the Editor: John Harney, e-mail: harney@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk -- John Rimmer Magonia Magazine www.magonia.demon.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 2 UpDate: Re: Implications - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 17:34:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 10:07:02 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Implications - Sandow >Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 13:27:01 -0400 >From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com> >Subject: Implications >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Greetings List, >The recent barrage of Corso and Cometa posts, along with many >other threads within the UpDates List, revealed something to me. >A correspondent of mine, whose observations and comments I've >quoted below, made me realize that the _end_result_ of these >types of message threads closely resemble the objectives of >skeptics, scientists, and governmental authorities whom we seek >to condemn for these same reasons. >Do those that post here ever consider the possible implications >of those posts? >Has anyone here considered the effect their posts have on a >UFO witness who is contemplating reporting a sighting? So...you're saying we should believe nonsense, to encourage UFO witnesses? And so we won't sound like skeptics, even when the skeptics happen to be right? Have you, Todd, considered the effect on UFO witnesses if we appear to be credulous and naive? I can easily imagine a thoughtful person seeing what might be a UFO, and saying: "I'd love to report this to a UFO group, but they all seem to believe complete nonsense." Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 2 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 17:42:16 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 10:57:43 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Sandow >Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 03:42:12 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Lovett >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Hello Diane, hi All, >>It would be nice to put all the speculation to bed >>too. >It wasn't easy for me to write or to submit that post to >UpDates. I had been tortured by it for weeks and the "What If" >post was my way of doing what I thought was the right thing to >do. I could not 'identify' the party in question in my posting >because; >a. This individual has not been tried in civil court. Any direct >references to this person would give him/her an opportunity to >sue me for defamation of character, loss of income, and other >equally nasty legal mumbo-jumbo. I needed to level the playing >field by putting people 'wise' but, I cannot afford expensive >lawyer fees for lengthy litigation that I would lose! Someone >else is in possession of 'evidence' connected to this incident. >Not I. >b. A direct reference would only serve to interfere with any >pending or future litigation against this person by the 140 >injured paties involved. John, Here's my two cents. I wouldn't hesitate to name the name if I had more than two credible sources telling me these things really happened. Or maybe even two credible, independent sources -- that's a standard often applied in journalism. If I were reporting on this for a newspaper or magazine, I might go to print with two sources. And it wouldn't in the least hurt the chances of those who might bring legal action. We see lawsuits in the news all the time. Doesn't hurt their chances for success. As you know, John, I made an effort to check this story, and found one credible source willing to confirm it. To my mind, the actions of the person we're not naming are outrageous, even though he's a respected abduction researcher, whose work I thought I generally admired. And actually there's one route to confirmation I haven't mentioned, which I'd certainly take if I were writing a journalistic report on this. Call the researcher and call the person who allegedly bought the files. If they both confirm the story, then I wouldn't hesitate, not for an instant, to print both names. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 2 UpDate: Re: Implications - Stacy From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 18:03:07 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 11:00:05 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Implications - Stacy >Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 13:27:01 -0400 >From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com> >Subject: Implications >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Do those that post here ever consider the possible implications >of those posts? >Has anyone here considered the effect their posts have on a >UFO witness who is contemplating reporting a sighting? Todd, Your premise is wrong from the outset. Anyone who wants to report a UFO sighting or abduction experience isn't going to stumble across this thread as their first option, read through a couple of dozen posts, exclaim, wow, these people sure are contentious, and disappear into the night. So, the answer to your question is, No, I don't, because this isn't a reporting list. It is a list, however, where if you or anyone else makes a declarative statement, someone will probably respond with some serious questions -- and exactly opposite declarative statements of their own. Are you and others up to answering them and defending your own declarations, or would you prefer a nice, quiet corner of your own? If the latter, then I'm sure there are other UFO lists out there more than willing to accommodate you. The choice is yours. And some of us here don't like being called government shills. Apart from that, you'll find much useful information posted, about which you are perfectly free to make up your own mind. And comment accordingly. Sincerely, Dennis Stacy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 2 UpDate: Re: $10,000 Exh"CAUS"ted?! From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 16:30:05 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 11:03:50 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: $10,000 Exh"CAUS"ted?! >Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 01:17:46 -0400 >From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com> >Subject: $10,000 Exh"CAUS"ted?! >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Hello List, >In past e-mails to this list concerning CAUS and it's >fundraising efforts for the $10,000 required to appeal Judge >McNamee's decision and Gersten's recent vacation. Please read >the latest update below titled CAUS IN COURT: JULY 1, 2000. >I'm also quoting here from the June 2000 Issue of Lucius >Farish's UFO Newsclipping Service, which contains an article >dated March 31, 2000 (Did Gersten possibly already have his mind >made up?), which contains an Arizona Republic story titled >"Request about UFOs dismissed", by Senta Scarborough, which >states in the closing paragraph, "Gersten won't give up. He >said that he will continue to press for information but added >(add emphasis here - T.L.) that he most likely won't appeal >McNamee's decision. >Quickest $10,000 I've seen spent in a long time! >Don't get me wrong, I'm not passing judgment on anyone just >making an observation. >Bottom Line: I believe there may be another fund raiser in the >works. <snip> Take the money and run. I posted to this list sometime ago that I felt Gersten's little fundraiser was a scam. I also informed the list that since Gersten is acting on behalf of a non-profit organization that the filing fees can be waived. Even if he chose to pay for it, the cost of filing an appeal is no where near $10G. Here, in the district court of Oregon, it cost $105.00 to file an appeal to a federal suit and I'm quite sure the price is consistent throughout the United States. I've noticed that Gersten has not been consistently updating the CAUS mailing list on the status of his appeal as he did with all of the other legal actions he has pursued with regard to UFOs. Gee, I wonder what the price of a first class airline ticket to New York must cost these days... Someone stated they were concerned with the effect some posts on this list may have on other people. That's a valid point, but I think some people should be more concerned with the effect that low-class UFO con men have on ufology as a whole. Regards, Royce J. Myers III eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy - "Don't Trip On Your Open Mind." eXpos News http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3 UFO Hall o' Shame http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 2 UpDate: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 7-8-00 From: Rense E-News <e-news@the-i.net> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 17:50:52 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 11:06:43 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 7-8-00 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Jeff Rense Weekly E-News ---------------------------------------------------------------- The Week Ahead 7-1-00 thru 7-8-00 Guests, Announcements, Week's Top Stories From sightings.com Jeff Rense E-News is distributed exclusively by Free Subscription. --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- * EDITOR�S CORNER * 63 Things You Might Not Have Known Take a few to gain some useless knowledge. (01) Money isn't made out of paper. It's made out of cotton. (02) The 57 on the Heinz ketchup bottle represents the number of varieties of pickle the company once had. (03) A rat can last longer without water than a camel. (04) Your stomach has to produce a new layer of mucus every two weeks, or it will digest itself. (05) The Declaration of Independence was written on hemp paper. For those of you who don't know what hemp is.... (06) The dot over the letter "i" is called a tittle. and now you know... (07) A raisin dropped in a glass of fresh champagne will bounce up and down continuously from the bottom of the glass to the top. (08) Susan Lucci is the daughter of Phyllis Diller. (09) A female ferret will die if it goes into heat and cannot find a mate (10) A duck's quack doesn't echo. No one knows why. (11) A 2 X 4 is really 1-1/2 by 3-1/2. (12) 40% of McDonald's profits come from the sales of Happy Meals. (13) Every person has a unique eye & tongue print. (14) The "spot" on the 7-Up comes from its inventor who had red eyes. He was an albino. (15) 315 entries in Webster's 1996 dictionary were misspelled. (16) During the chariot scene in "Ben Hur", a small red car can be seen in the distance. (17) On average, 12 newborns will be given to the wrong parents daily.! (18) John Wilkes Booth's brother once saved the life of Abraham Lincoln's son. (19) Warren Beatty and Shirley McLaine are brother and sister. (20) Chocolate kills dogs. Chocolate affects a dog's heart and nervous system. A few ounces is enough to kill a small sized dog. (21) Daniel Boone detested coonskin caps. (22) Playing cards were issued to British pilots in WWII. If captured, they could be soaked in water and unfolded to reveal a map for escape. (23) Most lipstick contains fish scales. (24) Orcas (killer whales) kill sharks by torpedo-ing up into the shark's stomach from underneath, causing the shark to explode. (25) Donald Duck comics were banned from Finland because he doesn't wear pants. (26) Dr. Seuss is actually pronounced Seuss such that it sounds like "Sue-ice." (27) Ketchup was sold in the 1830s as medicine. (29) During the California gold rush of 1849, miners sent their laundry to Honolulu for washing and pressing. Due to the extremely high costs in California during these boom years, it was deemed more feasible to send their shirts to Hawaii for servicing. (30) American Airlines saved $40,000 in 1987 by eliminating one olive from each salad served in First Class. (31) Because metal was scarce, the Oscars given out during World War II were made of wood. (32) The number of possible ways of playing the first four moves per side in a game of chess is 318,979,564,000. (33) Upper and lower case letters are "upper" and "lower" because in the time when all original print had to be set in individual letters, the upper case letters were stored in the case on top of the case that stored the lower case letters. (34) There are no clocks in Las Vegas gambling casinos. (35) There are no words in the dictionary that rhyme with orange, purple, and silver. (36) The numbers "172" can be found on the back of the US 5 dollar bill, in the bushes at the base of the Lincoln Memorial. (37) The name Wendy was made up for the book Peter Pan. There was never a recorded Wendy before. (38) The very first bomb dropped by the Allies on Berlin in World War II killed the only elephant in the Berlin Zoo. (39) There are 4 cars and 11 lightposts on the back on the US 10 dollar bill. (40) Leonardo Da Vinci invented scissors. It also took him 10 years to paint Mona Lisa's lips. (41) If one places a tiny amount of liquor on a scorpion, it will instantly go mad and sting itself to death. hehehe (42) Bruce Lee was so fast that they actually had to s-l-o-w film down so you could see his moves. That's the opposite of the norm. (43) If you have 3 quarters, 4 dimes and 4 pennies, you'd have $1.19.You would also have the largest amount of money in coins without being able to make change for a dollar. (44) The first CD pressed in the US was Bruce Springsteen's "Born in the USA". (45) The mask used by Michael Myers in the original "Halloween" was actually a Captain Kirk mask painted white. (46) The original name for butterfly was flutterby (47) The phrase "rule of thumb" is derived from an old English law which stated that you couldn't beat your wife with anything wider than your thumb. (48) The first product Motorola started to develop was a record player for automobiles. At that time, the most known player on the market was Victrola, so they called themselves Motorola. (49) Roses may be red, but violets are indeed violet. (50) By raising your legs slowly and laying on your back, you cannot sink into quicksand. (51) Casey Kasem is the voice of Shaggy on Scooby Doo. (52) Celery has negative calories. It takes more calories to eat a piece of celery than the celery has in it to begin with. (53) Charlie Chaplin once won third prize in a Charlie Chaplin look-alike contest. (54) In Gulliver's Travels, Jonathan Swift described the two moons of Mars, Phobos and Deimos, giving their exact size and speeds of rotation. He did this more than 100 years before either moon was discovered. (55) Chewing gum while peeling onions will keep you from crying. (56) Sherlock Holmes NEVER said "Elementary, my dear Watson". (57) An old law in Bellingham, Washington, made it illegal for a woman to take more than 3 steps backwards while dancing. (58) Sharon Stone was the first Star Search spokesmodel. (59) The glue on Israeli postage is certified kosher. (60) The Guinness Book of Records holds the record for being the book most often stolen from Public Libraries. (61) Astronauts are not allowed to eat beans before they go into space because passing wind in a spacesuit damages them. (62) Back in the mid to late 80s, an IBM compatible computer wasn't considered 100% compatible unless it could run Microsoft's Flight Simulator. 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 2 UpDate: Re: Giant Airships - McCoy From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside. com> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 18:48:52 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 11:13:09 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Giant Airships - McCoy Hello all, >Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:21:29 -0700 >From: SMiles Lewis <elfis@austin. rr. com> >Subject: Giant Airships >To: UFO UpDates <updates@sympatico. ca> This is relevant -especially for those who think in the secret aircraft/Black triangle mode. >Tho it isn't specificly UFO related... >I think you see the relevance. >SMiles >www. elfis. net >From: "Martin Adamson" <martin@srv0. ems. ed. ac. uk> >Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:38:58 +0000 >To: forteana@primenet. com >Subject: Giant airship could end famine >Evening Standard >Giant airship could end famine >by Richard Allen >The prototype for a gigantic airship the length of four Jumbo >jets and capable of carrying 880 cars from London to New York in >three days is due to be unveiled tomorrow. Ok, this isn't the first time someone proposed this sort of thing, even Zepplin themselves have 300 ft. prototype flying-again. >The 100mph craft, SkyCat 1000, designed by British engineers, >will use hovercraft technology to enable it to land anywhere, >even on water, without the need for a ground crew. Fine, but how the heck are you goning to control it once it alights? This is what ground crews do, one of the problems of lighter than air flight, is the fact that you have all that mass and no way to control it once the engines are off. >In the days of the Graf Zeppelin more than 200 people were >needed on the ground to bring it down. Now Aircraft Technologies >Group is launching SkyCat's 50ft baby, SkyKitten, at Cardington >in Bedfordshire, the home of the ill-fated R101 airship which >crashed in France in 1928 with the loss of 40 lives. The R 101 was a classic case of design by commitee, over budget, over weight, it could barely get out of its own way, the R-100 could run rings around it, but the British Gov'nt thought the R -101 was much better. Then, as I recall the R-100 was grounded because the Gov'nt thought all airships were as bad as the klunky R- 101. End of Brit Lighter-Than-Air until the 1970's. >But the design brains behind ATG, Roger Munk, is keen to point >out that hydrogen, the highly flammable gas used in the R101 and >the Hindenberg, which crashed in 1937, is a thing of the past. >Modern airships use helium, an inert gas that is actually used >to put fires out. Acutually, if the Hindenburg was filled with Aviation Fuel, it would have leveled Lakehurst N. J. The use of Helium has drawbacks too, paticularly it requires more volume in the gas cells, because Helium has more mass than Hydrogen. the cells have to be at least 10% larger to exract the same perfomance out of Helium. enlarging the Airframe to accomidate Helium contributed to the death of the Shenandoah in 1925. There was a recent book I can't remember the title of, speculated it was the covering of the Hindenburg that caught on fire due to static the covering material being of simular composition to ah, solid rocket fuel. <snip> >Mr Munk said: "SkyCat 1000 is basically a heavy lift platform >that can be used for a whole stack of purposes. It is a >"The fact it can land on any terrain of water or marsh makes it >particularly flexible. In aid situations, with a 1, 000-tonne >payload, you could literally stop a famine in one go. <snip> Lack of handlers, now no mooring mast, how is this accomplished? Ballonets, Ballast?somthing has to be done to keep the craft from flying into space like a child's Balloon. Vectored thrust? I'd like to know. >"It would also make an enormous difference in mounting the >expeditionary warfare which is so difficult these days. Some >lunatic does something in some far- flung part of the globe and, >as was demonstrated in Kosovo, the West cannot get in a >sufficiently large ground force quickly enough to stop the >threat. In a large, slow moving, target. Look what happened to the Messerschimtt "Gigant" gliders that were shot down in droves by the British defending Malta. The few military sucesses of Lighter-Than-Air was the U. S, Navy's Blimp program, not shutting down until the 1960's. mainly being an antisubmarine and early warning system. >"What troublemakers know is that the West has extremely slow >response times. This kind of technology enables you to fly in a >balanced force that can stop an outbreak in its tracks. " As long as some guerrilla isn't tracking you with a Russian . 50, Ak-47 or a squad of Longbowmen. >By the middle of next year ATG expects to have a 269ft, 15-tonne >pay-load machine flying, which could be used for taking 100 >people on low-level sightseeing trips or for carrying a huge TV >advertising screen. Actually one of the best uses for Lighter-Than-Air. Remember the scene in "Blade Runner"? >The year after that will see the production of a 200-tonne >payload aircraft, carrying twice the load of a Jumbo jet, >and two years after that the SkyCat 1000. >The C5, the largest military transport plane currently used by >the US military, can carry one tank. The SkyCat 1000 would be >able to carry 16. Yes, but have the problems inherent to Zepplin type transport craft been overcome:Namely fragility and the inablity to cope with wind shear. I would like you to remember these names. Arkon :(1912) -blew up over New York with all hands. Shenandoah :(1925) Crashed near Lakehurst, N. J. all officers in the control car (13) killed in heavy thunderstorm. The second Arkon (1933) Crashed off New Jeresy shore 73 killed three survived-Thunderstorm. Macon (1935) crashed off the Monterey CA. coast 2 dead-Thunderstorm. From 1912 to 1935 there were 19 peacetime accidents 350 killed, 17 due to weather. This is due to the light construction of the Zepplin type airframe. even with modern materials there appears to be a size limit. >It would be capable of crossing the Atlantic twice without >refuelling at a speed four times faster than the world's biggest >cruise ship. It is so vast it could not fit into Wembley >Stadium. In fact, by volume, it could contain Wembley Stadium. <snip> >Other possible military uses include naval mine sweeping or as >an airborne radar platform. SkyCat 1000 is particularly suitable >for the latter role as it could remain "on station" for days >rather than hours as is the case with aircraft. Yep, a perfectly good use for a Zepp. >Snip< >Around 450 passengers could travel in the SkyCat 1000 in comfort >or 100 passengers in the kind of spacious elegance offered by an >ocean liner. There could be silver- service meals, lounges, >possibly a piano bar and state rooms for a comfortable night's >sleep. >When conditions are right, the captain could descend to 600ft >and cut the engines so that travellers could stroll on an outer >promenade deck in complete silence. Oh, never, never, cut the engines, that would be courting disaster. it's been done, believe me (as I was there once) you'd be in trouble quicker than you could say "New Carissa"- a local example of why you never shut your engines down, also you then have to figure out what part Leonardo DiCaprio will play . I vote for Jim Carrey as the Captain Now why the long reply to this letter? well don't get me wrong as I am a frustrated Zepplin Captian myself. I do think they are useful. and like Steam Locomotives, we gave up on Rigid Lighter-than- -Air (LTA from now on), also called Zepplins too soon. But they have their limitations, heavy weather particularly wind shear is a big problem, so is dissapation of static over such a large area. The use of vectored thrust is one solution, and it's seen on modern non-rigid (blimps) and the new Zepplin Demonstrator, but it's still difficult on a large 800-1000ft body to get it to go where you want it to go quickly. -This is why I have problems with "Black Triangles" being somthing "ours" or at least built with "our" technology. They can move fast manever well and are silent for the most part. Zepplin type LTA's aren't . Areons are somewhat differnet, half plane half rigid LTA. Has some advantages but still falls short in storage of stuff, Gas, and what ever propels it. and it's still unmaneuverable-realtivley speaking . Any way, sorry for the long post but I had to explain things - I hope. GT McCoy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 2 UpDate: Oberg - The Strange Case of Fobos-2 - Cummins From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 19:10:57 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 11:16:08 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Oberg - The Strange Case of Fobos-2 - Cummins Greetings list - Source: Space.com http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/phenomena/fobos_mystery_000630.html The Strange Case of Fobos-2 By Jim Oberg posted: 05:50 pm EST 30 June 2000 If Robert Frost had been the poet laureate of space flight, he might have written, "Something there is that doesn't like a Mars probe." And a comic cartoonist once drew an ugly, hungry space beast lurking near Mars to devour Earth's space vehicles (the painting hung on the wall of a mission manager at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory for years). You get the picture. This past decade has not been kind to Earth's Mars probes. There was NASA's expensive Mars Observer blowing up in 1993 as it warmed its rocket engines up to slow into orbit. And we've just seen both of NASA's 1999 missions fail. Russia lost another ambitious probe in 1995 when its upper stage failed, dumping radioactive fragments onto the Andes Mountains. And a Japanese mission, their first to Mars, went off course right out of the gate in December 1998. But the most bizarre loss of a Mars probe is unarguably the case of Phobos-2 (or Fobos-2, in the Russian spelling). It "disappeared" in March 1989, under very unusual circumstances that still mystify and excite many people. Recent developments in the Russian space program have opened new insights into that failure. But first, here's some history. Trying to lift the curse The Soviet Union launched two probes towards Mars in mid-1988, trying to break a decades-old jinx. Its initial series of small probes (1960-1965) had been a total disaster, and a series of heavier probes (1969-1973) didn't do much better. But this third generation was much more promising. The spacecraft "bus" -- the main body -- was of an entirely new design. It had new engines, new computers, new communications gear. And this new mission carried subsatellites to be dropped onto the inner Martian moon, Phobos. But the old jinx still prevailed. The first probe was lost due to an erroneous command on the outbound leg. The second vehicle was crippled by electronics failures and by the time it reached Mars on January 30, 1989, it was operating on its last and lowest-powered radio. Nonetheless, it slipped into orbit around Mars and slowly matched its path with Phobos. As it closed in, it also made observations of Mars. A dozen times, it turned its cameras away from Mars and towards Phobos. This required the whole spacecraft to turn, since a movable "scan platform" hadn't been installed. The maneuver also turned the dish antenna away from Earth, cutting communications for several hours each time. On March 27, 1989, the probe began another Phobos photo maneuver, and as expected radio signals ceased. But after the planned maneuver, when listeners on Earth expected to reacquire the signal, nothing was heard. More careful listening picked up brief bursts of radio signals, as if the dish antenna were swinging wildly through space and only occasionally beaming back towards Earth. Then -- only silence. Strange shadows explained But not for long. Soon a strange and wonderful story grew and spread, about mysterious structures observed on the surface of Mars. The probe's last view, so the tale continued, showed a miles-long oval object closing in. The object's elliptical shadow could be seen on the surface of Mars thousands of miles below. And indeed, cigar-shaped shadows were plainly visible in many of the 37 photographs that the doomed probe sent back to Earth during the 60 days it survived circling Mars. Such images are not unusual in the archives of American Mars orbiters, from Mariner-9 to the Viking Orbiter twins, to the Mars Global Surveyor, still at work there to this day. In those cases, what was seen were shadows of the moonlet Phobos, stretched by being projected at a low angle to the Martian surface. But Fobos-2 was on a different orbit, and for the last few weeks it was fairly close to the moon Phobos. Thus, any view of that object's shadow on Mars would have to be fairly circular. Think about the geometry -- use props if you want to. It's an illuminating exercise in 3-D perspectives. If you're next to a roundish object casting a shadow, the shadow will look more-or-less roundish to you no matter how steeply tilted the surface it's projected on is lying. So where did the cigar-shaped shadow come from? Several years ago, mission scientist Aleksandr Selivanov explained the cigar-shaped shadow in the Fobos-2 images this way. The imaging system is a "scanning radiometer," not a camera, Selivanov pointed out. A rotating mirror moves perpendicular to the line of the probe's motion over Mars. As a result, "a picture is generated by the motion of the spacecraft in its orbit." The probe did NOT gather an entire image in one snap, but accumulated it over a period of time, line by line. Fobos-2 was staring straight back along the Sun-to-Mars line, to get the best infrared readings. In contrast, visible light imagers prefer to look for shadows cast by surface features, so they are aligned at large angles to the Sun's rays. This made the visible-light images from Fobos-2 look washed out. Now, Fobos-2 was quite near the moon Phobos in the last days of its flight, both circling Mars along the same path. So the roundish shadow of Phobos was on Mars's surface, within the field of view of the scanner, when the scanner was looking "down sun" at Mars. Selivanov explained that if the probe had been rock steady, the Phobos shadow would have left a dark streak right through the entire center of each image, as the image was assembled line-by-line over the course of each orbit. Because of a slight rocking of the probe, however, the scanning beam "sliced" the Phobos shadow at different points, from back to front, over the course of each imaging session. The resulting elongated shadow is thus an artifact of the imaging technology, and of the probe's motion through space and around its own axis. Selivanov argued that since these shadows are all precisely aligned along the probe's flight path over Mars, they are unquestionably not shadows of other objects near Mars. They show the shadow of Phobos. One supposed photograph, the "last one before the attack," shows Phobos and a bright vertical line below it. Since the line runs right along the telemetry scan lines, space experts are confident it is some sort of transmission flaw, not a real object in space. Besides, the date on the image is March 25, two days before the probe's loss. Hurry and other human errors The breakdown of Fobos-2 was disappointing to experts associated with the program, but not surprising. They had seen human error doom its sister craft, Fobos-1, before it even got to Mars, and they had seen signs that Fobos-2 wasn't in much better shape. Dr. Larry Soderblom was one of the American scientists who had instruments aboard the probe. "There is a feeling in the American space science community the Russians were in too much of a hurry," he later told a reporter. "The two satellites lost were launched without much thought to a system of checks and balances that might have prevented such problems." And even the design was questionable. "Soviet scientists at the Space Research Institute in Moscow complained that the new, sophisticated spacecraft actually was designed for purposes other than those for which it was being used on the missions to Phobos," wrote a British space expert. "Engineers adapted it for the mission in order to flight-test it for future missions to which it was considered better suited." These problems were recognized even as the missions were launched. I remember telling another reporter: "I'd be surprised if both make it -- and I wouldn't be surprised if neither do." Everything returns But space is full of surprises, and 11 years later, Fobos-2 has suddenly been reborn. A rocket stage based on its design was launched into orbit on February 9 and performed perfectly. A second and more ambitious test on March 20 also went perfectly. The stage is called "Fregat," Russian for "Frigate" -- and in fact, on many Fobos-2 photographs from 1989, one can read the designation "Phobos-Fregat." In 1995, project manager Vladimir Ashushkin described to me his hopes for a commercial deal to carry paying customers into space by adapting and improving the interplanetary module. That deal has now been signed with a number of European customers and Fregat spacecraft will soon be heading off into space again, into high Earth orbits, out to the moon, and even back to Mars -- a Fregat is slated to carry the European Space Agency's Mars Express probe in 2003. With a better design, and better luck, the curse of Fobos-2 may be dispelled. But Mars may have its own ideas about that! --- Best regards, - Blair Cummins ufoblair@hotmail.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 2 UpDate: Re: Implications - Lemire From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com> Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 10:36:45 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 19:12:19 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Implications - Lemire >Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 17:34:35 -0400 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >Subject: Re: Implications >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 13:27:01 -0400 >>From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com> >>Subject: Implications >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Greetings List, >>The recent barrage of Corso and Cometa posts, along with many >>other threads within the UpDates List, revealed something to me. >>A correspondent of mine, whose observations and comments I've >>quoted below, made me realize that the _end_result_ of these >>types of message threads closely resemble the objectives of >>skeptics, scientists, and governmental authorities whom we seek >>to condemn for these same reasons. <snip> >Have you, Todd, considered the effect on UFO witnesses if we >appear to be credulous and naive? I can easily imagine a >thoughtful person seeing what might be a UFO, and saying: "I'd >love to report this to a UFO group, but they all seem to believe >complete nonsense." >Greg Sandow Greg, Without getting into the same pattern as the endless arguments that I condemn, please read the quote below by Aime Michel. The key words within the quote are "not to persist stubbornly". I, and I think yourself, must admit that many of the arguments here _do_ "persist stubbornly" therefore denying progress. If it wasn't for Errol maintaining control it would be much worse. I believe that the credible UFO groups and investigators will continue to remain credible as long as their investigations and their ensuing published reports remain credible. This is not a matter of believing or not believing, it's a matter of the extent one goes to prove these beliefs that determines the credibility of all people involved. I believe there are many cases occurring in the recent past that deserve the attention and debate of those that have occurred some 50 odd years ago that get completely ignored amongst the endless arguments of the classic sightings. Todd Lemire Michigan UFO CENTRAL http://members.home.net/tlemire/UFOCENTRAL.html -- Knowledge progresses by the refutation as well as the confirmation of hypotheses, and the only essential is not to persist stubbornly in obsolete habits of mind. Aime' Michel- Flying Saucers and the Straight Line Mystery
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 2 UpDate: Re: Implications - Lemire From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com> Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 12:16:22 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 19:16:21 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Implications - Lemire Hello Dennis, See my replies below. >Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 18:03:07 -0500 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Implications >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 13:27:01 -0400 >>From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com> >>Subject: Implications >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> ><snip> >>Do those that post here ever consider the possible implications >>of those posts? >>Has anyone here considered the effect their posts have on a >>UFO witness who is contemplating reporting a sighting? >Todd, >Your premise is wrong from the outset. >Anyone who wants to report a UFO sighting or abduction >experience isn't going to stumble across this thread as their >first option, read through a couple of dozen posts, exclaim, >wow, these people sure are contentious, and disappear into the >night. I agree with you, but it does occasionally happen as there are some UFO "reporting" sites that link to Errol's. >So, the answer to your question is, No, I don't, because this >isn't a reporting list. It is a list, however, where if you or >anyone else makes a declarative statement, someone will probably >respond with some serious questions -- and exactly opposite >declarative statements of their own. Are you and others up to >answering them and defending your own declarations, or would you >prefer a nice, quiet corner of your own? If the latter, then I'm >sure there are other UFO lists out there more than willing to >accommodate you. Again, I agree with you that debates, both pro and con, concerning any UFO issue are healthy, but to endlessly beat a dead horse in lieu of expending this energy on other "presently occurring", and perhaps more important aspects of ufology is a detriment to these cases. The arguments basically consist of is the truth being told or not, is the man a liar or not, and every variation thereof. When the delete button is chosen by only the contents of the subject line of the message what has anyone accomplished? >The choice is yours. I choose to stay of course. The list is very informative and I enjoy the company. And as a comparative tool, these types of consistently argumentative posts make me appreciate the serenity I have, that is often lacking in other's lives. >And some of us here don't like being called government shills. My statement wasn't meant as an "accusation" at you or at anyone else on the list but the end results, of those argumentative messages, can be the same, as was demonstrated within the quote from my correspondent. >Apart from that, you'll find much useful information posted, >about which you are perfectly free to make up your own mind. And >comment accordingly. >Sincerely, >Dennis Stacy Again I agree with you, there _is_ much useful information here and I appreciate your comments as I too have learned from them. Sincerely, Todd Lemire Michigan UFO CENTRAL http://members.home.net/tlemire/UFOCENTRAL.html -- Knowledge progresses by the refutation as well as the confirmation of hypotheses, and the only essential is not to persist stubbornly in obsolete habits of mind. Aime' Michel- Flying Saucers and the Straight Line Mystery
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 2 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Lovett From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 14:40:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 19:18:35 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Lovett >Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 17:42:16 -0400 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 03:42:12 -0400 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Lovett >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Hello Diane, hi All, >>>It would be nice to put all the speculation to bed >>>too. >>It wasn't easy for me to write or to submit that post to >>UpDates. I had been tortured by it for weeks and the "What If" >>post was my way of doing what I thought was the right thing to >>do. I could not 'identify' the party in question in my posting >>because; >>a. This individual has not been tried in civil court. Any direct >>references to this person would give him/her an opportunity to >>sue me for defamation of character, loss of income, and other >>equally nasty legal mumbo-jumbo. I needed to level the playing >>field by putting people 'wise' but, I cannot afford expensive >>lawyer fees for lengthy litigation that I would lose! Someone >>else is in possession of 'evidence' connected to this incident. >>Not I. >>b. A direct reference would only serve to interfere with any >>pending or future litigation against this person by the 140 >>injured paties involved. >John, >Here's my two cents. I wouldn't hesitate to name the name if I >had more than two credible sources telling me these things >really happened. Or maybe even two credible, independent sources >-- that's a standard often applied in journalism. If I were >reporting on this for a newspaper or magazine, I might go to >print with two sources. And it wouldn't in the least hurt the >chances of those who might bring legal action. We see lawsuits >in the news all the time. Doesn't hurt their chances for >success. >As you know, John, I made an effort to check this story, and >found one credible source willing to confirm it. To my mind, the >actions of the person we're not naming are outrageous, even >though he's a respected abduction researcher, whose work I >thought I generally admired. And actually there's one route to >confirmation I haven't mentioned, which I'd certainly take if I >were writing a journalistic report on this. Call the researcher >and call the person who allegedly bought the files. If they both >confirm the story, then I wouldn't hesitate, not for an instant, >to print both names. >Greg Sandow Greg, Since you are a journalist, and a good one too, are you volunteering to take this issue on for "us" (the interested public, and potentially the harmed individuals)? If you have already found one credible source to verify the story, do you feel it is a serious enough situation to warrant a further investigation and perhaps publication by a journalist such as yourself, perhaps through the primary figures such as you suggested? Personally I would think that if a journalist could even verify that litigation was underway or had already occurred, reporting this fact alone and the parties involved would be perfectly safe, along with the outcome of current status of the litigation. Wouldn't something like that be public record stuff? Just asking for your thoughts and of course interested in what your take is on pursuing this yourself. Thanks, Diane
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 2 UpDate: For The Record - Lovett From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 14:55:39 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 19:21:40 -0400 Subject: UpDate: For The Record - Lovett With Errol's permission and tolerance, I would like to make a note "for the record" regarding any posts that I make to this list. I believe that Errol's own rules and guidelines are pretty specific, but as an individual I would like to note the following: The posts to this list are archived, and available to the public online. The first few times I ever posted here I didn't really realize this, and later wished I could delete some of my posts from the archive that were, in hindsight, more than I really wanted to be available publicly. I feel it is important for posters to bear this in mind, particularly those "coming out of the abductee closet" on this list. What has brought all this up for me was the recent discovery of some of my past posts on other folks web sites, put there without my knowledge or permission. One such post was found by a friend, and a web search on my name revealed a few more like it too. I have at this point no objection to the context in which those particular posts are being used on those web sites, but I am a bit concerned with the fact that whoever put them there or submitted them did so without my knowledge or permission. One site claims to have used my post with my permission, yet I sure don't remember giving it. Another was even translated into French by someone and put on a French language website, which luckily I was able to read enough to see that the context my post was used in was not really objectionable. The point of all of this is to say that any of my posts to this or any other mailing list or bulletin board are not to be used in any other context or form without my explicit permission. Posting to this list implicitly gives my permission for it to kept in Errol's online list archive, and I agree to that. I don't agree however for anyone else to use those posts any other way without my permission. Thanks. Diane Lovett
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 2 UpDate: Re: Oberg - The Strange Case of Fobos-2 - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 18:10:39 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 19:24:03 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Oberg - The Strange Case of Fobos-2 - Balaskas >Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 19:10:57 -0700 (PDT) >From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com> >Subject: The Strange Case of Fobos-2 >To: updates@sympatico.ca <snip> >http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/phenomena/fobos_mystery_000630.html >The Strange Case of Fobos-2 >By Jim Oberg >posted: 05:50 pm EST >30 June 2000 <snip> >But not for long. Soon a strange and wonderful story grew and >spread, about mysterious structures observed on the surface of >Mars. <snip> Hi everyone. I was very surprised that Jim Oberg made no mention at all about the infra-red images taken by Phobos (Fobos) 2 which show a large mysterious structure _below_ the surface of Mars that resembles an underground city. I wonder why? These incredible images were mentioned in my June 28 post to UFO UpDates two days before Jim's post to Space.Com. Maybe Jim was not aware of these other Phobos 2 mysterious images which reveal an extensive underground heat source arranged in a grid pattern many tens of kilometers in size that strongly suggest that it i an artificial rather than a natural structure. Then again, maybe Jim was aware of these images but chose to ignore what he too cannot explain. It may be more than just a coincidence that this underground "city" is located at a low elevation where water is more abundant and close to the Martian equator where is the warmest. Nick Balaskas
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 2 UpDate: Re: Implications - Cluff From: Lesley Cluff <manitou@fox.nstn.ca> Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 01:18:27 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 19:35:34 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Implications - Cluff Like a lot of us, I used to read alt.aliens - until the petty arguing just plain got to me! I could stand the spam but not the silliness. And I get annoyed when I see it happening here too. I have found a solution - I put all UpDates in a file, then do a search on that file for "re:" and whatever comes up, usually gets deleted! Its very rare, although I do check first for most, that anything beyond the first "re" on a subject, actually has anything of value worth reading. But, I won't ever quit the list! I appreciate the number of posts of articles, newstories, reports, good urls, etc, that are the meat of this list. And my thanks to everyone of you who takes the time to post those. But hey guys, sometimes I think being tied up and forced to listen to Klass would be preferable to the arguments between some of you so called 'believers'! Debate is one thing, but the silliness of some of the arguments, the name calling, it speaks very poorly of the people who are sincerely trying to learn about the subject, and bring it out into the open as well as the subject. Maybe we should be thinking a bit more and a lot clearer about the implications of what we say to each other, on someone just new to the list, especially those who came to it looking for understanding of an experience which may be upsetting or scary to them! Lesley Cluff manitou@fox.nstn.ca Prospect, Ontario, Canada
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 20:00:24 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 08:16:14 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Gates >Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:21:55 -0400 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:37:06 +0100 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >>Subject: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>To: UFO UpDates <updates@sympatico.ca> >>An article entitled 'Close Encounters With UFOs?', by Margaret >>Kirk, was published in 'The Times' (this seems to be an American >>magazine and not the London based newspaper) just prior to the >>release of David Jacobs' book 'Secret Lives'. >>The article states, "Jacobs, with Budd Hopkins, an artist and >>author of two books on UFO abductions, has recently received a >>200,000 dollar private grant - Jacobs will not reveal the donor >>- to conduct in-depth research on accounts of abduction by >>aliens. (Results of their first poll, conducted by the Roper >>organization and released last week, are that one in every 50 >>adult Americans claims a UFO abduction experience)". >>Was the amount of this grant, its specific purpose and the >>benefactor's identity ever _publicly_ confirmed? >Dear James: >I never heard about any of this. What I do find most interesting >is this: The original post which "revealed" some sort of fast >and loose regarding abductee's records and money has degenerated >into a cat and dog fight over how much money the people a UFOIN >may or may not have. A subject that seems to be about as far >afield from the the original premise as possible. Alas, it is true of the many lists and posts over the Internet these days. It starts off about A and ends up talking about Y because people are commenting upon small portions of the post that then expand into other areas. >While here you introduce the first bit of actual, published >information concerning researchers and funding by anonymous >individuals and you seem to have had your post fall into some >kind of Black Hole. It makes one wonder what the real purpose >of some on this List is? Do you really want to learn the truth? >Or do you just like having these little hissy fits? It certainly >shows why you don't hear much from frightened abductees. Reading I wonder what the "frightened abductees" think when they find out their files may have been sold to some sugar daddy with cash from a researcher who needs money? Just curious. Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Voyager Newsletter No. 12 From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 02:11:27 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 08:18:10 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Voyager Newsletter No. 12 Voyager Newsletter No. 12 In the last newsletter, I made available the previously unpublished, original US Air Force witness affidavit and accompanying sketches from Staff Sergeant Jim Penniston, subsequent to his pivotal involvement in the celebrated 1980 RAF Bentwaters and RAF Woodbridge/Rendlesham Forest 'UFO' case. The newsletter is online at: http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/v11.txt This is a brief extract: "When I acquired copies of the original witness testimonies, I provided them to various researches with an long-term interest in this classic British mystery. The pivotal statement of Airman Ed Cabansag was also made available on my web site. Now, the equally important affidavit and accompanying sketches from Staff-Sergeant Jim Penniston are being published and for the first time ever, the UFO which Penniston originally portrayed can be seen. Although I have previously confirmed details of this depiction, it may still be something of a surprise for those more familiar with the triangular UFO of Rendlesham lore". Following publication, I received considerable feedback and correspondence, including the following comments: James, Just wanted to drop you a note to say how impressed I am with your research in showing what a sham the RAF Woodbridge UFO farce was. For someone not in the USAF you did an admirable job in accurately describing the situation especially details such as getting the unit call signs correct (Police 4 and Police 5). You get a big thumbs up from me. Chris Armold MSgt, USAF (Ret) [End] Chris served with the 81st Security Police Squadron and was a close colleague of Burroughs and Penniston It was Chris who reported initial concerns about 'strange lights in Rendlesham forest' - which was outwith the jurisdiction of the USAF twin-base complex - to local police at the Suffolk Constabulary. A more detailed background can be found on my web site at: http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/rend2.htm Chris has been scathing about the 'UFO tales' which emerged in later years and some of his comments are unprintable! I appreciate Chris's kind words here. Michael Lindemann wrote: James, Thank you very much for sending your latest release on Bentwaters. This is very significant material and certainly lends credence to the supposition that something very out of the ordinary did occur in Dec 1980. I will feature your new information in the upcoming June 1 issue of CNI News and will direct our readers to your web site. Best regards, Michael Lindemann Editor, CNI News [End] Michael expresses a different take on this material evidence and whatever anyone's viewpoint, I was pleased to see these historical UFO documents reach a wider audience. Science writer Ian Ridpath, who was the first to suggest that the beacon from nearby Orfordness lighthouse had been mistaken for a UFO, wrote: Dear James, Thanks for sending me the latest copy of your Voyager Newsletter. It was interesting to see Penniston's sketch which confirms the route taken into the forest (so much for turn *left* at East Gate). However, I can't entirely agree with this quotation from your Newsletter: "Completely absent from this statement is any mention of having next pursued an unidentified light for some two miles". Actually, Penniston does say (and I quote from his affidavit) "We then proceeded after it. It moved in a zig-zagging manner back through the wood then lost site (sic) of it. On the way back we encountered a blue streaking light to the left lasting only a few seconds. After a 45-minute walk arrived at our vehicle." It is difficult to know how accurate the duration of 45 minutes is, and whether it refers to the total time since leaving the vehicle or the time taken to return from their most distant point. Either way, it is a shorter duration than that reported by Burroughs, and may suggest that Penniston gave up before they did. As for the difficult-to-decipher writing on the sketch in Penn5 - it looks as though it might say "Couple of feet", possibly referring to the perceived size of the object. Regards, Ian [End] I accept this point and despite all those who were sceptical and tried to debunk the lighthouse theory, Ian was of course proven to be absolutely correct. Renowned sceptic Philip Klass wrote: Dear James Easton: Thank goodness the "mysterious" lights that Lt. Col. Halt saw were "UFOs" and NOT Soviet covert craft--precursors to a Soviet nuclear attack on the UK. If Halt had seen aircraft with Soviet insignia flying over Bentwaters during daylight, he probably would NOT have reported it to his superiors because of all the then recent excitement about UFOs. If Halt had indeed seen Soviet aircraft overhead, he probably would not have reported it to MOD--figuring that it was up to British military to detect Soviet overflights, NOT the USAF. (I'm pulling your leg a bit.) More seriously, surely Lt. Col. Halt knew the "official USAF position" that all UFOs have prosaic explanations and knew of the contrary position that some UFOs were ET craft. In view of Halt's subsequent (TV) accounts of laser-like beams, etc. IF the UFOs he was witnessing were Soviet satellites or aircraft--outfitted with lasers--he should have reported same promptly BOTH to USAF and MOD officials. And IF the UFOs he witnessed chanced to be ET craft, he should have done the same. Yet the record shows that more than TWO WEEKS ELAPSED before he wrote his SKIMPY report. ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. No wonder the person(s) who received Halt's Jan. 13 memo did not take any drastic action. [End] Adding to the public availability of evidence, I'm now able to provide online a copy of the entire 'Halt Tape', a microcassette recording which Lt. Col. Halt made on the night of the second 'UFO scare' From what I understand, few people have ever heard the full tape and the contents can be downloaded from: http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/halttape.rm It's in Real Audio format and although lasts for almost 18 minutes, only takes up just over 2Mb of data. When listening to the recording, it's crucial to remember the following _FACTS_: At this time, Lt. Col. Halt is unaware how during the base's recent 'UFO alert', during the early hours of 26 December, the patrol which investigated that incident ended up pursuing the beacon from Orfordness lighthouse. Halt didn't request statements from those participants until a week later. No-one else in Halt's team is as yet aware of this either - indeed, it's quite probable they were never made aware of it as this critical factor, confirmed by those statements, was never disclosed by the participants, nor Halt, in any subsequent public accounts of events. The Geiger counter readings are so small as to be irrelevant, nor does anyone seem to catch on that the 'radiation' readings from the next farmer's field are actually higher then those from the supposed 'UFO landing site'!. The observation of a 'strange flashing light' within the forest (Orfordness lighthouse, some five miles away, was visible through the trees and appeared as a small light at eye-level) was almost certainly also the lighthouse beacon. Halt has subsequently confirmed it was a tiny light they noticed and it's also stated on tape how "it's clear off to the coast" and "right on the horizon". From discussions - most recently on the UFO Research List - a consensus is that those three star-like objects reported on tape were almost certainly stars. The objects remained in the sky for several hours and the stated elevation and azimuths are consistent with the bright star Sirius, plus Deneb and Vega. Halt has subsequently acknowledged how these objects gradually faded from view as dawn approached. The 'beam of light' Halt reports on tape as periodically emanating from the object to the south was a perceived occurrence which continued for at least forty-five minutes. What isn't clear from the recording alone and was only clarified afterwards, is that some of Halt's observations were made through binoculars and would be prone to image and light distortion. Halt is also sometimes using the Starlight 'image intensifier' scope. Alternatively, we have to ask - how likely is it that whilst this patrol are taking irrelevant Geiger counter readings, watching a deceptive lighthouse beacon and excitedly thinking 'UFOs', that alien visitors should actually drop in... As some of the tape's contents are indistinct, a complete transcript is helpful (if not essential!) and can be downloaded from: http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/halttape.txt This is the most accurate transcript available and was the result of combined efforts by Ian Ridpath and myself in 1998. Further online _factual_ background details to the entire affair can be found at: http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/rendlshm.htm or the redirected URL: www.rendlesham.com The new evidence uncovered and significantly greater understanding of this UFO case during the last 3 years - a number of people have contributed to that - has gradually been recognised and during the past year I have been asked to assist with a book publication and major TV series which would have featured the case as a foremost 'unsolved UFO mystery'. I'm pleased to say both sources were willing to look at the overall evidence and came to the same conclusions of their own volition. As a result, the book publishers have radically revised their previous perception of the case evidence - much of which was factually mistaken and borne of mythology. I hope to mention more about these projects in due course. Should there be any new, reliable evidence [and I don't mean claims of an alien base underneath the complex] that does endorse the enigmatic nature of those 1980 events, it would be welcome and I've certainly looked long and hard for it. Recently, I was able to persuade one of the UK's most prestigious national newspapers that there were some puzzling aspects and related claims concerning nuclear weapons on base and they might care to look into these. They agreed to do so and I understand contacted Col. Halt directly. Halt has reportedly stated he 'wants to have his day in court in England' and I doubt he will ever have a better opportunity. I would be surprised if anything comes of it and there's little more I can do in this respect. Nevertheless, like Penniston's affidavit, the 'Halt tape' remains a classic UFO testimony! O0O~O0O~O0O~O0O The 'UFO Research List' (UFORL) is a moderated discussion forum for related topics which can be evidenced to have a _scientific_ foundation, encompassing 'black projects'. There are currently around 100 subscribers. To join UFORL, you can sign up from UFO World's home page or by sending a blank e-mail, with a blank subject line, to: UFORL-subscribe@listbot.com You will then be sent a verification message and a copy of the list 'housekeeping rules'. O0O~O0O~O0O~O0O James Easton, Editor. E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk www.ufoworld.co.uk (c) James Easton June 2000
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Voyager Newsletter No. 13 From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 02:14:25 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 08:19:14 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Voyager Newsletter No. 13 Voyager Newsletter No. 13 CONTENTS 1. Kenneth Arnold, 'Flying Saucers' and Undulating Flight. 2. Historical Newspaper Articles and Clippings. O0O~O0O~O0O~O0O 1. Kenneth Arnold, 'Flying Saucers' and Undulating Flight. Reactions to a critical appraisal of the Kenneth Arnold case, as with most other cherished 'UFO' reports, has proved to be directly proportional to a conviction it's an unshakeable foundation of evidence that alien civilisations have long been visiting Earth. It used to be that way with the Rendlesham case too. Fair enough, I say. With that acknowledged, the following is largely devoid of any personal opinions and intended to present new evidence, plus a re-appraisal of some developments which have featured in the research I have previously published. That preceding material is available on my web site at: http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ What I might now be able to add is significant evidence in support of the premise that Arnold may not have recognised the nine unidentified objects he witnessed was a rare Pacific North- west sighting of American White Pelicans - I'm a supporter of conclusions the explanation can't be sustained as aircraft, meteors, or any other bird species! It's taken a long time to find the exact data I was looking for and I wasn't even sure this existed in print. It does and I hope will help to appreciate the overall probabilities. A central aspect of the evidence is how those objects flew in an undulating formation. Arnold related this distinctive characteristic, which puzzled him so much, in a peculiar manner, comparing the objects motion to a 'fish flipping in the sun' and 'like a saucer would if you skipped it across water'. Not only was this latter remark misconstrued by the media and responsible for the mythology of 'saucer shaped' objects, as opposed to the 'bat-like' shape Arnold actually described, there's also been a misunderstanding that this simile related to each individual object. It didn't; Arnold was attempting to explain how all nine flew in formation and confirmed this is his subsequent book: "I was fascinated by this formation of aircraft. They didn't fly like any aircraft I had ever seen before. In the first place, their echelon formation was backward from that practiced by our Air Force. The elevation of the first craft was greater than that of the last. They flew in a definite formation, but erratically. As I described them at the time, their flight was like speed boats on rough water or similar to the tail of a Chinese kite that I once saw blowing in the wind. Or maybe it would be best to describe their flight characteristics as very similar to a formation of geese, in a rather diagonal chain-like line, as if they were linked together. As I put it to newsmen in Pendleton, Oregon, they flew like a saucer would if you skipped it across the water". Again, the crucial realisation is how this undulating flight relates to the formation and not any one, or more, of the individuals. There's little, if any, debate on this point and Arnold confirmed it in the speech he gave at the 'First International UFO Congress', Chicago, ILL, during June 24, 1977: "These craft seemed to be climbing a little bit as they were following this 170 degree heading and I knew that I was on a level with them because they were on a horizon with me, so my altimeter showed a little over 9200 feet, so they were flying at an elevation of about 9200, probably a little less or a little more as they sort of undulated, if you want to call it that, as they flew". Essentially, Arnold depicts an echelon, ribbon-like formation, undulating as it travelled and indeed - just like a kite-tail blowing in the wind. Whatever those nine objects were, we can begin to sketch their profile. There's another attribute they had and one which Arnold declared had a big impact on him, presumably concerning his awareness of how unusual the sighting was. As Arnold put it, they "fluttered and sailed" and recalled in his book: "Another characteristic of these craft that made a tremendous impression on me was how they fluttered and sailed, tipping their wings alternately and emitting those very bright blue-white flashes from their surfaces. At the time I did not get the impression that these flashes were emitted by them, but rather that it was the sun's reflection from the extremely highly polished surface of their wings". We can now expound on our profile and add the fact that these objects somehow gave the appearance of fluttering, before sailing - or, I think we can safely use the more appropriate term; gliding. When I recently first read the full transcript of this UFO symposium talk - my thanks to Bruce Maccabee for providing same - I recognised there was another detail which Arnold, even 30 years afterwards, still remembered: "I observed it seemed to... the first craft was at a higher elevation than all the rest of craft, which, of course, is not conventional, military formation at all, in either this country or Russia or Germany or anything that I had ever heard of before. So I just assumed, in a flash, that they were some new type of military missile or jet and possibly remote controlled. They didn't fly like airplanes actually. This brilliant flash that came from their surfaces, which I assumed was from the sun reflection at first, would pulsate and they would flutter like this and sail and they seemed to fly just as readily on edge as they did on a level. As I mentioned before they seemed like they were linked together in a sort of diagonal chain-like formation, similar to geese, but, uh (chuckle) they were not geese. I was very puzzled about that. However, I made a special note, they were all independent. Individually they were flying on their own, but every once in a while one of them would give off a flash like this and gain a little more altitude or deviate just a little bit from the echelon formation. And this went periodically on among them... alternatingly, I should say, not in regular rhythm particularly among all the nine craft I was observing". In his book, Arnold wrote that when the objects fluttered they appeared to 'tip their wings alternately' and as they did so, this resulted in a flash of reflected sunlight. Then, the object would glide. He now elaborates and tells us that "every once in a while one of them would give off a flash like this and gain a little more altitude or deviate just a little bit from the echelon formation". Arnold also claimed his total observation lasted for approximately two and a half minutes and this flutter-flash-glide sequence occurred on a number of occasions during the brief sighting. He confirms how, "this went periodically on among them", adding, "alternatingly, I should say, not in regular rhythm particularly among all the nine craft I was observing". What does he mean by 'alternatingly'; it does of course also come up in his book; "they fluttered and sailed, tipping their wings alternately and emitting those very bright blue-white flashes from their surfaces". Apparently, he is explaining that the flutter-flash-glide characteristic was expressed by individual objects "alternately". "Alternately" is defined by my dictionary as "occurring in turns" and "interchanging regularly or in succession", which seems to also define the specific observation Arnold is trying to convey. We can now paint a reasonably detailed picture of our nine mysterious aerial artefacts: 1. They were bat-like, or crescent-shaped, or as Arnold described in the formative radio interview he gave to KWRC on 25 June, 1947, the day after his encounter, "They looked something like a pie plate that was cut in half with a sort of a convex triangle in the rear". 2. They flew in an echelon, ribbon-like formation, undulating as they travelled. 3. They frequently and alternately appeared to flutter, resulting in a flash of reflected sunlight (although maybe not always) and this was following by a period of gliding. 4. The flutter-flash, but not the glide, also caused an object to seemingly either gain altitude or slightly stray from the formation. Evidently, this was related to an action which produced momentum. 5. The flutter-flash-glide was seen several times during an approximate 150 second observation. However, it may have occurred more often, as Arnold mentioned how during the incident he turned his aircraft around to obtain a clearer view of proceedings. Presumably the objects were lost from sight whilst he completed that manoeuvre. If this is as intended, an accurate, in-depth analysis of the objects witnessed, then any theorised identification has to encompass an explanation for some, ideally all, of these distinctive characteristics. When I first considered the Arnold case, my initial research ruled-out, as had others, by default the most likely explanation - that these were merely nine aircraft. Despite the striking similarity between Arnold's crescent-shaped depiction and the contemporary, tail-less, Northrop 'flying wings', or speculatively, the German Horten counterparts, there were reasons for discounting that any one of their aircraft could have been responsible, let alone nine of them. There was one other possibility and particularly advocated by the number of objects involved - a formation of birds. When brief, verbatim details of Arnold's accounts were provided to Pacific North-west ornithologists, several identified the same bird species as exhibiting, in formation, notably similar and quite distinctive characteristics to those Arnold related. Michael Price, an Ornithologist from Vancouver, first suggested: "There's a possible candidate species in the area at that time of year, sporadically, whose color, size, flight profile and proclivity for formation flight at sometimes quite high altitude would even more produce every detail of the phenomenon which Arnold observed: a flock of non, or failed-breeder, southbound White Pelicans. They'd have been large enough to visible for a good distance, they fly in formation, and if the light were reflecting just right off a large nearby glaciated peak, their comparatively vast white underwing area would reflect a _ton_ [Michael's emphasis] of light in exactly the pattern described by Arnold". Up to that point, I was entirely unfamiliar with American White Pelicans! The objective now is to examine what exactly constitutes undulating flight, why would any birds or aerial vehicles want to utilise it and within this context, how do the specifics of American White Pelicans compare to Arnold's testimonies. This calls on two new sources and the first reference is a scientific paper entitled, "Bounding and Undulating Flight in Birds", by J. M. V. Rayner, published in the 'Journal of Theoretical Biology' [(1985) volume 117, pages 47-77]. Rayner notes that undulating flight is, "adopted by many larger birds" and that it's, "particularly marked" in a few species, including "various Pelecaniformes" [which includes American White Pelicans]. He writes: "Although superficially similar to bounding in that the wingbeats occur in bursts, undulating flight differs markedly in its contribution to performance. Now, weight is supported continually, ground speed remains virtually constant, and only thrust is intermittent; the flapping phase is used to gain height rather than vertical acceleration...". "The need for an undulating bird to be able to glide may restrict undulating flight to species with good gliding performance...". At some 30 pages, it's an informative paper, however, the above extract will suffice. The second reference comes from 'The Life of Birds', by Sir David Attenborough [ISBN 0563 38792 0, pages 47-48]. Discussing 'The Mastery of Flight', Attenborough writes: "Beating wings demands such energy that it is clearly valuable to do it in as economical a way as possible. One simple method of achieving that is to stop every now and then...". "Even a big bird can economise on its wing beats. If it stops flapping with its wings not closed but open, their surface area is big enough to impede its fall and it will glide. Pelicans regularly do this. How long they can glide depends on how high above the ground they are, how much height they can afford to lose, and how fast they are travelling. White pelicans have an additional way of saving energy, They take advantage of the turbulence in the air created by their own companions. The high pressure air created below a wing by its aerofoil shape leaks round the tip of the wing into the low pressure area on the upper surface. This slight upward current in the air remains briefly in its wake. A pelican flying in a group takes advantage of this by flying behind the wing tip of the bird ahead rather than directly behind its tail. The wing-tip station also gives it a better view of what lies ahead. So groups of pelicans often take up a V- formation. Furthermore, because the effect of the wing-tip turbulence is at its greatest immediately after the down-stroke of the wing and rapidly fades, the pelicans will not only fly in formation, but beat their wings with the near precision of a well-drilled corps de ballet. The only bird of the group that does not benefit from this order of flight is the leader of the squadron and after having done its share, it will fall behind and allow another to take on the job. Geese also fly in this way to form those huge and unforgettable skeins across the sky". Groups of pelicans will also fly in a "L" shaped formation and I've watched film of them in a loose, undefined echelon. With previously evidence confirming the reflective capabilities of White Pelicans - they are after all the largest bird in North America, predominately all-white and with a 3m (10 ft) wingspan - we can apply all of the documented attributes to Arnold's objects and consider any correlation. [1. They were bat-like, or crescent-shaped... "something like a pie plate that was cut in half with a sort of a convex triangle in the rear".] White Pelicans, as with most other birds, obviously have a bat- like profile and unlike many species, are also tail-less, instead having a 'small triangle' rear-end. [2. They flew in an echelon, ribbon-like formation, undulating as they travelled.] An exact match. [3. They frequently and alternately appeared to flutter, resulting in a flash of reflected sunlight (although maybe not always) and this was following by a period of gliding.] As evidenced, White Pelicans viewed against a background of snow covered mountains could be expected to reflect light as they engaged those large, flapping wings. If so, this is also a distinctive parallel. [4. The flutter-flash, but not the glide, also caused an object to seemingly either gain altitude or slightly stray from the formation. Evidently, this was related to an action which produced momentum.] As shown, the purpose of flapping is precisely to gain altitude. [5. The flutter-flash-glide was seen several times during an approximate 150 second observation. However, it may have occurred more often...] White Pelicans always fly with several wing-beats, followed by a long glide. Any observed repetition is to be expected. There's simply no argument that in all of these respects, the nine objects which Arnold witnessed behaved remarkably similar to White Pelicans and distinctively so. In summary, we can now better understand why a formation of pelicans fly in an echelon, ribbon-like formation. They employ a flapping and gliding motion as it conserves energy and the intermittent wing-beats will enable them to gain altitude due to upwards momentum. Their undulating flight is a direct consequence. A fleet of nine, bat-like, technologically superior alien spaceships might fly in a kite-tail-like echelon formation and exhibit a fluttering and gliding motion because... The fluttering might enable them to gain slight altitude because... They continually employ this undulating, fluttering and gliding flight and the advantage of them all continually doing so at well over a thousand miles per hour is... ...perhaps somewhat implausible. As we know, the extraordinary conjecture that these were ET spaceships grew, primarily in later years, out of Kenneth Arnold's story of large, far-off objects which went from Mt Rainier to Mt Adams in a short time, which he 'clocked'. Arnold claimed that he could be sure they were so far away because they fleetingly disappeared behind a "jagged projection" or "sharp peak" on Mt. Rainier and he knew this was some 25 miles distant. Following my recent enquiries of local expertise, we now also know that he was evidently mistaken about this and fundamentally so. The 'jagged peak' has been identified as almost certainly 'Little Tahoma' - looks like there aren't any alternative candidates - and as it's on the far side of Mt. Rainier from Arnold's location, they couldn't have travelled behind the peak without also having disappeared behind the mountain for some time. As Arnold claimed the objects flew between his position and the mountain, something is terribly amiss. The default answer is that Arnold was in error and against the snow-covered backdrop, misperceived the objects momentarily passing behind Little Tahoma when they absolutely must have been somewhere in front of it. If Little Tahoma is 'Arnold's peak' - as UFO historian Brad Sparks was adamant it had to be and before I obtained confirmation from expert sources - then Arnold's perceptions of speed and distance must be regarded as comprehensively unreliable. Outwith considerable discussions which have taken place on the 'UFO Research List' - all material there is 'list only' unless otherwise designated - Brad has expressed his conviction that Arnold's sighting remains a highly credible UFO case and proposes an alternative scenario; the trajectory of Arnold's objects did take them behind Mt. Rainier. As I've pointed out, however, Arnold confirmed on many occasions that the objects were visible against the background of Mt. Rainier and that's how he could make out some detail about their shape. An aerial photograph of Mt. Rainier, which seems to have been taken from the same perspective (although closer to Rainier) as Arnold's location over Mineral, Washington, can be seen at: http://mt.rainier.tribnet.com/photogallery/detail.asp?id=29 The jagged peak to the right of Mt. Rainier is Little Tahoma. Some further photos illustrating Little Tahoma: http://www.physics.georgetown.edu/~porezag/rainier98/rainier98- 82.jpg [This URL might 'wrap around'] http://www.nwlink.com/~dognose/rtahom.htm If this crucial evidential anomaly can't therefore be reconciled, then it remains a major factor in any premise why Arnold's objects could have been a formation of White Pelicans. Other aspects which cast doubt on the unusual nature of these objects have previously been highlighted (see the aforementioned material on my web site) and especially relevant is Arnold's later aerial encounter with up to twenty-five, 3 or 4 foot diameter, brass-coloured objects which "looked like ducks" and "had the same flight characteristics of the large objects I had observed on June 24". Arnold believed this, the second of some 8 'UFO' sightings he had, was also of enigmatic, unidentified objects. During my research, UFO historian Ed Stewart uncovered a little- known newspaper report dated 12 July, 1947, in which a Pacific North-west aircrew encountered "nine big round disks weaving northward two thousand feet below us". Why didn't this become an important corroborative 'flying saucer' sighting? Because the pilot and co-pilot confirmed, "We investigated and found they were real all right - real pelicans". Bat-like objects which flutter and then glide, that gain altitude when they flutter, which - comparative to the above report - "weave" and also utilize undulating flight like a formation of birds, and which the witness noted had the same characteristics to a formation of 25 flying objects that looked like ducks, a landmark which is used as a distance marker and turns out to be on the wrong side of the mountain... If Arnold's puzzling objects were in fact a flotilla of nine, non-earthly, bat-like voyagers, it was something of a unique observation and unconnected to the media's popularised portrayal of 'flying saucers'. Other than, of course, being the misinterpreted foundation for them. Some might conclude that even Scooby-Doo and Shaggy could eventually figure this one out. Others will doubtless disagree. From recent discussions with Philip Klass, I know he is sticking steadfastly to his conclusion that Arnold's nine objects were meteors. I invite Phil to reconsider and explain why meteors could exhibit the echelon, ribbon-like, undulating formation which has now been elucidated from Arnold's various accounts, how they could _repeatedly_ 'flutter' and then glide and also gain some altitude during the 'fluttering' phase, etc. Maybe as a result of Arnold's subsequently calculated and assummed to be trustworthy 'over a thousand miles per hour' airspeed, it was previously a requirement to explain his reported observations by suggesting alternative, fast moving objects. With the identification of Little Tahoma proving to be a decisive breakthrough, that is no longer necessary and unless circumstances alter, never will be. I'm pleased to reveal that a major feature and update on research into this foremost UFO case will shortly be published by Fortean Times magazine. O0O~O0O~O0O~O0O 2. Historical Newspaper Articles and Clippings. Arnold's quite incredible legacy is highlighted by a collection of newspaper reports which an acquaintance in the US kindly provided to myself a few years ago. These reports span the period from July 1947 - just before the 'Roswell' debacle - to 1966 - just after Hynek's 'swamp gas' calamity. It's been my intention for a couple of years to make the data available online and although this turned out to be much more time consuming than expected, I'm pleased to say the articles and clippings can now be downloaded. Most are from The New York Times and overall, it's a 'potted history' of reports, Air Force concerns, scepticism and beliefs regarding 'flying saucers' during that period. Although much of the material will be familiar to historians, there may be some which isn't so well-known and the reports include 'real time' insight into several celebrated cases, particularly the 1952 Washington 'flap'. Where known, the date and source are identified to the best of my knowledge. All copyrights are acknowledged and if there are any related objections to these historical articles being made available for research purposes, please let me know. Otherwise, I'm sure they will be of interest: 'Flying Disks' Fail to Stir Air Forces 4 July, 1947 http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/005.jpg 'Flying Saucers' Mystify Experts; May Be Prank of Nature, They Say 6 July, 1947 http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/010.jpg http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/011.jpg Military Planes Hunt Sky Discs With Cameras in Vain on Coast 7 July, 1947 http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/020.jpg http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/021.jpg Front Page of the 'Los Angeles Evening Herald and Express' 7 July, 1947 [Note the extraordinary 'flying saucer' hysteria which has resulted from Kenneth Arnold's June 24th, 1947 account. Whilst many people report seeing the popularised 'flying saucers', no- one seems to be witnessing crescent-shaped objects like those Arnold actually reported!] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/030.jpg http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/031.jpg 'Disks' Soar Over New York, Now Seen Aloft in All Colours July 8, 1948 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/040.jpg http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/041.jpg Flying Saucer Picked Up on Ranch July 8, 1947 - Los Angeles Evening Herald and Express [During the ensuing 'flying saucer' hysteria, someone thinks they have found one of these mysterious 'discs'!] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/050.jpg http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/051.jpg Mystery Cleared as Flying Disc Proves Weather Balloon July 9, 1947 - Los Angeles Evening Herald and Express http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/060.jpg http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/061.jpg 'Starlike Bodies' Explode in Iran July 9, 1947 - Los Angeles Evening Herald and Express http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/070.jpg 'Disk' Near Bomb Test Site is Just a Weather Balloon July 9, 1947 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/075.jpg http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/076.jpg Saucers? Maybe a Mighty Russian Throwing a Discus, Gromyko Hints 10 July, 1947 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/085.jpg Meteorites Laid to a Lost Planet 27 December, 1947 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/090.jpg 'Saucers' Called Real Navy Planes 4 April, 1950 - The New York Times [The Navy's 'flying flapjack'.] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/100.jpg 'Strange Object' in Sky 16 February, 1951 - The New York Times [Report from two officers at Wright-Patterson AFB.] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/105.jpg Flying Saucers... Turn Out to Be Balloons 18 February, 1951 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/110.jpg Those 'Saucers' 18 February, 1951 [Note again how Arnold's reported sighting has been misunderstood.] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/115.jpg Enemy Tryouts Seen in 'Flying Saucers' 26 February, 1951 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/120.jpg 'Saucers Inquiry Made' 16 July, 1952 [The sighting by Pan American pilots, Nash and Fortenberry.] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/125.jpg Flying Objects Near Washington Spotted by Both Pilots and Radar 21 July, 1952 - The New York Times [The Washington 'flap' begins.] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/130.jpg 'Saucers' Visit on Coast 25 July, 1952 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/135.jpg 'Objects' Outstrip Jets Over Capital 28 July, 1952 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/140.jpg Air Force Explains 2-Hour Delay in Chasing 'Objects' Over Capital 29 July, 1952 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/145.jpg Air Force Debunks 'Saucers' as Just 'Natural Phenomena' 30 July, 1952 - The New York Times [Unfortunately, I'm missing the continuation of this article.] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/150.jpg 'Flying Saucer' Queries Hamper Air Force Work 1 August, 1952 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/155.jpg Mystery Photo, Jet Pilots' Report Added to 'Flying Saucer' Puzzle 2 August, 1952 - The New York Times [The Salem 'Coast Guard' photo case. Note also the story re Air Technical Intelligence Center and a 'jet interception' of 'flying saucers'.] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/160.jpg Air Force Releases Pilot's Last Message During Fatal Pursuit of Aerial 'Object' 21 August, 1952 - The New York Times [Capt. Mantell's tragic flight.] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/165.jpg U.S. Jets Chase Strange Lights 22 January, 1953 - The New York Times [Interesting report from Northern Japan - claims frequent radar tracking and two pursuits of 'unknowns'.] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/170.jpg Air Force Unconvinced 24 January, 1953 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/175.jpg 'Disk' Seen Over Japan 28 January, 1953 - The New York Times [Another reported incident, this time involving a confirmed pilot sighting. The article mentions a 'hitherto secret report from intelligence files' - perhaps someone can please let me know if the original USAF file was in fact ever made available.] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/180.jpg Saucers 19 April, 1953 [This briefly notes that 'Air Training', published by Air Training Command, has a feature about 'flying saucers'.] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/185.jpg Flying Saucers? 3 July, 1955 - The New York Times [A bizarre report of a seemingly unremarkable photograph (need a higher quality copy though) released by the US Navy and which purportedly shows "an unusual cloud formation over the city of Marseilles, France" taken on 4 November, 1954! The background to this is currently under investigation - any information welcome.] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/190.jpg Air Force Plans 'Flying Saucer,' But Denies There Are Any Now 26 October, 1955 - The New York Times [The Avro 'Saucer' is revealed.] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/195.jpg http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/196.jpg A superb quality copy of the photograph (thanks to Joel Carpenter) which accompanied this press release can be seen at: http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/avro.jpg 'Saucer' Report Scored 26 October, 1955 - The New York Times [Donald Keyhoe Criticises latest Air Force report.] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/205.jpg High Speed Objects Reported in the Sky 17 January, 1957 - The New York Times [Admiral Fahrney and the formation of NICAP.] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/210.jpg '4 Objects Reported Flying 3,600 M.P.H.' 12 July, 1957 - The New York Times [NICAP's first magazine is issued - they're obviously troublemakers!] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/215.jpg Flying 'Egg' Reported Over Texas Highway 4 November, 1957 - The New York Times [The Levelland case.] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/220.jpg Flying Objects Bring On Inquiry 5 November, 1957 - The New York Times [The Levelland and White Sands cases.] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/225.jpg Investigators Using Radar Find No Evidence of Flying Objects 6 November, 1957 - The New York Times [Note the additional article in which Dr Menzel claims sightings are mirages.] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/230.jpg Author Digresses on TV, Sound is Cut 23 January, 1958 - The New York Times [Donald Keyhoe is 'cut off' when it's feared he is about to compromise national security!] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/235.jpg Keyhoe Airs Remarks 24 January, 1958 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/240.jpg Dr. Jung Says 'Saucers' Exist; Bars Psychological Explanations 30 July, 1958 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/245.jpg This article shouldn't be taken at face value - for an explanation see: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/may/m28-013.shtml Lights in Sky Stir Ontario 17 August, 1958 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/250.jpg Pilot Reports Saucers 26 February, 1959 - The New York Times [Capt. Killian's sighting report. Did these three unidentified objects really appear to accompany the airplane for some 45 minutes? This seems a different story from other accounts which claim the sighting was brief.] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/255.jpg 'Saucers' Possible, Admiral Declares 12 March, 1959 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/260.jpg Flying 'Lights' Sighted 12 July, 1959 - The New York Times [Several pilots report a phenomenon over the Pacific.] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/265.jpg Air Force Studying Object Over Alaska 17 February, 1960 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/270.jpg Air Force Order on 'Saucers' Cited 28 February, 1960 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/275.jpg Air Mystery Disputed 20 March, 1960 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/280.jpg Sky Mystery Sighted 26 August, 1960 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/285.jpg Two Recall Path of Flying Object 31 August, 1960 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/290.jpg 40 in Michigan Report Mysterious Flying Object 22 March, 1966 - The New York Times [Hynek's 'swamp gas' fiasco. My copy of the newspaper report is curtailed at the furthest right column.] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/295.jpg 87 Coeds Saw a Flying Object Near a Dormitory in Michigan 23 March, 1966 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/300.jpg 'Flying Objects' Are Called Gas 26 March, 1966 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/305.jpg http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/306.jpg Saucer Sightings Vex Capitol Hill 27 March, 1966 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/315.jpg Those Flying Objects? 'Miracles,' Says Teller 4 April, 1966 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/320.jpg 2 Deputies Chase a Flying Object 18 April, 1966 - The New York Times [Deputies Spaur and Neff's pursuit of an 'unidentified object'.] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/325.jpg Air Force Selecting University to Study 'Flying Saucer' Data 14 August, 1966 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/330.jpg Physicist Scores Saucer Status 18 October, 1966 - The New York Times [Dr James E. McDonald "urges a 'radical change' in the investigation of unidentified flying objects to determine if some may come from other worlds".] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/335.jpg http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/336.jpg Bright Light Seen in Patchogue Sky 22 October, 1966 - The New York Times [Five Suffolk County policemen report a sighting.] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/345.jpg Unidentified Objects in Sky Sighted at Goldsboro, N.C. 25 October, 1966 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/350.jpg Suffolk Reports More UFO's 29 October, 1966 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/355.jpg Mysterious 'Light' Identified as Star 1 November, 1966 - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/360.jpg Three Satellites Termed Unknown 1 November, 1966 - The New York Times [Note the original decision not to reveal these 'unknowns' because of 'flying saucer enthusiasts'!] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/365.jpg The exact date of these articles is uncertain: Air Mystery in Paris The New York Times [Any further information about this radar contact case would be welcome.] http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/400.jpg Useful 'Saucers' Sometime after July 1952 (mentions the Washington incidents) - The New York Times http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/405.jpg Odd Tales of UFOs and Sen. Bob Dole Visit Russell, Kan. (Looks like) 1991 - Wall Street Journal http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/410.jpg http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/411.jpg O0O~O0O~O0O~O0O The 'UFO Research List' (UFORL) is a moderated discussion forum for related topics which can be evidenced to have a _scientific_ foundation, encompassing 'black projects'. There are currently around 100 subscribers. To join UFORL, you can sign up from UFO World's home page or by sending a blank e-mail, with a blank subject line, to: UFORL-subscribe@listbot.com You will then be sent a verification message and a copy of the list 'housekeeping rules'. O0O~O0O~O0O~O0O James Easton, Editor. E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk www.ufoworld.co.uk (c) James Easton July 2000
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Brigham From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 21:12:40 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 08:21:52 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Brigham >Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:05:15 -0500 (CDT) >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> >Subject: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Semi-unusual? Let's see: long, thin, _blonde_ hair typical of >Scandic racial types, but shown by mitochrondrial DNA sequencing >to fit only a Chinese mongoloid as the donor. How many blonde >Chinese mongoloids do you know Mr. Brigham? Can you point us at >independent info that demonstrates the existence of any at all? >Semi-unusual? "Extremely usual" maybe; "unique" is more likely. >You have a real knack for evidence deprecation. I've seen quite a few who were bleached, but I hesitate to even mention that because I am sure the analysis would pick something of that nature up, right? (seriously, I don't have the article onhand since I moved house) So you're telling me we have blonde chinese people (from outer space) abducting people? I think I was fairly accurate in my description of it as unusual, but not earth shaking or irrefutable. <snip> >1. A lady in the Vancouver area who has been visited. > Her neighbors across the street report seeing odd > lights and beams above her house. >2. A report from the general NY area, where the neighbors > across the street from an abductee complain about kids > having a party on his roof. The same night the person > is abducted, via the roof. This case was reported on > this very list some time ago. >3. A report (I think from UFO Roundup or Filer's Files) of > folks in North Carolina or Virginia who see a UFO land > behind some trees near a house across the valley, and > then watch the occupants walking, automaton like, > into the copse where the UFO has set down. >Isn't this exactly the sort of evidence you bemoan the lack of >above? Well, its out there. 2 of these 3 don't ring a bell, assuming the descriptions are accurate. I'll try to find something more on them, or would appreciate if anyone else could substantiate/reference them. Of course a major point of importance (to me) is if they have been competently investigated or just reported. Hopefully the former. Best, Tim )+( TBrigham@ksinc.net http://zap.to/DevilsAdvocate The Devil's Advocate http://zap.to/MindPhuck Operation MindPhuck "Better to go hungry than to feast on lies." )+(
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Re: For The Record - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 20:31:32 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 08:26:17 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: For The Record - Hatch >Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 14:55:39 -0400 >From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> >Subject: For The Record - Lovett >To: updates@sympatico.ca >With Errol's permission and tolerance, I would like to make a >note "for the record" regarding any posts that I make to this >list. I believe that Errol's own rules and guidelines are pretty >specific, but as an individual I would like to note the >following: >The posts to this list are archived, and available to the public >online. The first few times I ever posted here I didn't really >realize this, and later wished I could delete some of my posts >from the archive that were, in hindsight, more than I really >wanted to be available publicly. I feel it is important for >posters to bear this in mind, particularly those "coming out of >the abductee closet" on this list. >What has brought all this up for me was the recent discovery of >some of my past posts on other folks web sites, put there >without my knowledge or permission. One such post was found by a >friend, and a web search on my name revealed a few more like it >too. I have at this point no objection to the context in which >those particular posts are being used on those web sites, but I >am a bit concerned with the fact that whoever put them there or >submitted them did so without my knowledge or permission. One >site claims to have used my post with my permission, yet I sure >don't remember giving it. Another was even translated into >French by someone and put on a French language website, which >luckily I was able to read enough to see that the context my >post was used in was not really objectionable. >The point of all of this is to say that any of my posts to this >or any other mailing list or bulletin board are not to be used >in any other context or form without my explicit permission. >Posting to this list implicitly gives my permission for it to >kept in Errol's online list archive, and I agree to that. I >don't agree however for anyone else to use those posts any other >way without my permission. Good point Diane: On a whim, I went browsing for my own name "Larry Hatch" as an exact quote. I was amazed to find many references, well over half to this Larry Hatch. Likewise, I would prefer that some of them were simply forgotten. I suggest that each of us browse for our own names, again within quote marks. You may be surprised. Best wishes - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 23:55:26 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 08:28:28 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Sandow >Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 14:40:35 -0400 >From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Sandow >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Greg, >Since you are a journalist, and a good one too, are you >volunteering to take this issue on for "us" (the interested >public, and potentially the harmed individuals)? Diane, thanks for the compliment, and I wish I could answer "yes" to your question. Unfortunately, I'm tied up with too much other work right now, and I can't pursue this important question. I wish somebody would, though, if only for publication here on UpDates. >If you have already found one credible source to verify the >story, do you feel it is a serious enough situation to warrant a >further investigation and perhaps publication by a journalist >such as yourself, perhaps through the primary figures such as >you suggested? Yes. >Personally I would think that if a journalist could even verify >that litigation was underway or had already occurred, reporting >this fact alone and the parties involved would be perfectly >safe, along with the outcome of current status of the >litigation. Wouldn't something like that be public record stuff? >Just asking for your thoughts and of course interested in what >your take is on pursuing this yourself. I agree -- if litigation is underway, it's a matter of public record, and there's no point in not revealing it. And even if there's no legal action yet, I don't think a responsible news story would hurt anyone who might want to go to court later on. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Re: For The Record - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 00:01:03 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 08:30:32 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: For The Record - Sandow >Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 14:55:39 -0400 >From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> >Subject: For The Record - Lovett >To: updates@sympatico.ca >What has brought all this up for me was the recent discovery of >some of my past posts on other folks web sites, put there >without my knowledge or permission. One such post was found by a >friend, and a web search on my name revealed a few more like it >too. I have at this point no objection to the context in which >those particular posts are being used on those web sites, but I >am a bit concerned with the fact that whoever put them there or >submitted them did so without my knowledge or permission. One >site claims to have used my post with my permission, yet I sure >don't remember giving it. Another was even translated into >French by someone and put on a French language website, which >luckily I was able to read enough to see that the context my >post was used in was not really objectionable. Diane, I recently had a really strange thing happen. A magazine called me for information on a story they were about to run over my byline -- and the story turned out to be a post of mine from UpDates. I'd never been asked for permission. When I made a loud fuss about this, I was assured it was all a mistake, and that the story was just a news roundup, incorporating some information I'd posted here. My byline was removed. It's really amazing how people take information on the web and, not to mince words, steal it, or at least appropriate it for their own use. Someone not too long ago even stole part of my website, and reposted it as his own. Luckily for me, he was a college student, and when I informed the dean of his school and the computer people there about what had happened, they made the kid take my stuff off his site. There's one simple protection we all might try, and that's to type "list only" at the top of our posts. Obviously, this won't prevent anyone from stealing our stuff, but maybe a few people will think twice. Diane, you've identified an important problem. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Re: Corso & The COMETA - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 00:09:50 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 08:32:04 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso & The COMETA - Sandow >Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:06:49 -0400 (EDT) >From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA >To: updates@sympatico.ca >To the List >Comments of the Cometa on the debate "Corso and the Cometa". >I discussed with Cometa people, and especially with Michel >Algrin, the many messages posted on this List regarding Corso's >and Birne's book, and its mention in their report. >They pointed out that the section of their report devoted to Corso's >theory is very careful. They do not endorse in any way the whole or >any given part of "The day After Roswell". >On the contrary, they have written: >"Some of these claims (Corso's claims in the book) are >surprising at the very least but the entire content of the book >can not be dismissed easily when one considers the remarkable >career of its author, and Senator Thurmond's tribute to him". Well, to me that sounds like at least a partial endorsement. For instance, they could have turned their statement around, and written: "The author has had a remarkable career, and has been praised by Senator Thurmond. But because some of his claims are surprising at the very least, the entire content of the book can not be accepted easily." Same thoughts, far more cautious emphasis. Nor do the COMETA writers mention the factual errors in the book, its internal contradictions, or its lack of independent supporting evidence, which Corso surely should have been in a position to provide. I'd have to say that their summary of the situation is one of the more generous I've read -- especially since they don't even mention that Thurmond explicitly did _not_ endorse what the book says. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 01:55:19 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 08:36:55 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Velez >Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 17:42:16 -0400 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 03:42:12 -0400 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Lovett >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Hello Diane, hi All, >>>It would be nice to put all the speculation to bed >>>too. >>It wasn't easy for me to write or to submit that post to >>UpDates. I had been tortured by it for weeks and the "What If" >>post was my way of doing what I thought was the right thing to >>do. I could not 'identify' the party in question in my posting >>because; >>a. This individual has not been tried in civil court. Any direct >>references to this person would give him/her an opportunity to >>sue me for defamation of character, loss of income, and other >>equally nasty legal mumbo-jumbo. I needed to level the playing >>field by putting people 'wise' but, I cannot afford expensive >>lawyer fees for lengthy litigation that I would lose! Someone >>else is in possession of 'evidence' connected to this incident. >>Not I. >>b. A direct reference would only serve to interfere with any >>pending or future litigation against this person by the 140 >>injured paties involved. >John, >Here's my two cents. I wouldn't hesitate to name the name if I >had more than two credible sources telling me these things >really happened. Or maybe even two credible, independent sources >-- that's a standard often applied in journalism. If I were >reporting on this for a newspaper or magazine, I might go to >print with two sources. And it wouldn't in the least hurt the >chances of those who might bring legal action. We see lawsuits >in the news all the time. Doesn't hurt their chances for >success. >As you know, John, I made an effort to check this story, and >found one credible source willing to confirm it. To my mind, the >actions of the person we're not naming are outrageous, even >though he's a respected abduction researcher, whose work I >thought I generally admired. And actually there's one route to >confirmation I haven't mentioned, which I'd certainly take if I >were writing a journalistic report on this. Call the researcher >and call the person who allegedly bought the files. If they both >confirm the story, then I wouldn't hesitate, not for an instant, >to print both names. >Greg Sandow Hiya Greg, Ok, you're on! I'll ask them myself. Do you have the telephone numbers for Robert Bigelow, John Carpenter and Walt Andrus? :) Any help securing these contact numbers will be most appreciated. I will be sure to report the results of those conversations to the list. Regards, John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 01:12:44 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 08:38:30 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? List, A friend of mine doing some research on the Joe Simonton, Eagle River case (you know, the "pancake case") recently came across a brief online database which listed the case as 'solved.' Upon contacting the webmaster, my friend received the following response: "just found out about this recently, in a book. It was revealed that the sighting was the result of a post-hypnotic suggestion given to him at one of the "hypnosis for fun" sessions at parties. Those were common at that time. I believe it was in one of Peter Brookesmith's books, but I don't have the books here in the building where the computer is, and I am going on vacation beginning tonight, so I won't be able to look this up for a couple of weeks. I didn't discover this, I merely recorded it in my list, as I record all solutions as they come to light. I have discovered solutions for other sightings, but this one is not mine. " This was surprising to a few of us, and I was wondering if anyone could provide more info on it? Thanks, Tim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Re: PRG Press Release - July 4, 2000 From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG@aol.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 06:07:42 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 08:42:19 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: PRG Press Release - July 4, 2000 PRG Paradigm Research Group Press Release July 4, 2000 Washington, DC - A controversial and impacting Coast to Coast AM with Mike Siegel will air at 10 PM PST, Thursday, July 6. This program could be a milestone in addressing the government cover-up of facts concerning an extraterrestrial presence in our world, now. Two jurist doctors and an activist/lobbyist will join host Mike Siegel, another jurist doctor, to discuss, among other things, significant events which occurred during the administration of President Jimmy Carter. With Mike will be world famous legal activists, Daniel Sheehan; author Alfred Webre; and lobbyist, Stephen Bassett. Daniel Sheehan has spent his life working on progressive social initiatives. He was legal counsel on such nationally recognized cases as Karen Silkwood, Iran/Contra, Pentagon Papers, Watergate, and Three Mile Island. He brings to the issue of extraterrestrial related phenomenon a unique background in investigating the world of covert operations, "black budget" programs, government disinformation, and covert warfare. He founded the Christic Institute, for nearly two decades one of the country's preeminent public-interest law firms. Alfred Webre is the author of Exopolitics, a remarkable assessment of the pre- and post-disclosure political implications of an extraterrestrial presence. In the same fashion as the recent Stephen King offering, Exopolitics is being sold as an eBook at www.universebooks.com. Webre is a Fulbright Scholar and graduate of Yale University, Yale Law School and the University of Texas Counseling Program. He has been an environmental lawyer, futurist with Stanford Research Institute, community health and social activist, and has taught at Yale University and the University of Texas. Webre has also been a Non-Governmental Delegate to the United Nations, as well as a delegate to the Texas Democratic Convention. Stephen Bassett is a lobbyist, activist, and columnist. He is the founder of the Paradigm Research Group, founder and executive director of the Extraterrestrial Phenomena Political Action Committee (X-PPAC), creator of the Paradigm Clock, author of two websites, and frequent guest on radio programs nationwide discussing the "politics of disclosure." Coast to Coast AM, with 476 radio stations in syndication nationwide, is the largest late night radio talk program in the America. It also broadcasts worldwide on the Internet at: www.coasttocoastam.com, where past programs are archived for 30 days. This broadcast will air in the Washington, DC metro area on WWRC AM 570. **************************************************************** Paradigm Research Group URL: www.paradigmclock.com E-mail: ParadigmRG@aol.com Phone: 301-564-1820 Fax: 301-564-4066 4938 Hampden Lane, #161 Bethesda, Maryland 20814 **************************************************************** Spread the word about the politics of disclosure: Contribute online or mail to: 4938 Hampden Lane, #161 Bethesda, MD 20814 **************************************************************** "There is almost no limit to what you can accomplish, if you are willing to give away the credit." ****************************************************************
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Italian Gassers - Russo From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 08:53:38 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 08:45:42 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Italian Gassers - Russo Re: UpDate: Magonia Monthly Supplement, No. 28 >Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 22:09:53 +0100 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Magonia Monthly Supplement, No. 28 >Editor: JOHN HARNEY >No. 28 June 2000 >EDITORIAL >As all Forteans and Magonia readers will be aware, it is not >just UFOs that should arouse our scepticism. A recent item in >The Daily Telegraph (23 June 2000) tells of "a tranquil Italian >village" which is allegedly being terrorised by thieves who >climb drainpipes, enter bedrooms and drug the occupants in their >sleep before ransacking their homes. "Almost everyone" in the >village of Sutri has been or knows a victim "put to sleep" with >a narcotic spray. It is alleged that last year the gang staged >two or three robberies a night and that on some occasions "they >drugged and robbed the occupants of whole blocks of flats". >Curiously, the reporter makes no mention of police comments or >investigations. The story seems implausible to me; it reminds me >of the Mattoon gasser . . . Implausible, indeed. Yet it's a rather frequent fashion for robbers in Italy, nowadays. I admit having long disbelieved such stories, and collected them for our own "urban legends" file, as well as the "hypnotizing robber" of a few years ago. But I have to testify that it's now established as a recurrent fact, in more than just one town. Italian newspapers are not only reporting testimonies, but also comments by the police and even details of which gases or sprays are being used (non Italians are blamed, usually Slavians or Gypsies). Exactly one year ago, it happened in my own house. At 1 a.m. a lone thief climbed along the balconies and tried each and every floor, beginning with the second one and up to the nineth. He sprayed gas into every open window he found, and he managed to enter at least three different apartments, stealing watches, cellular phones, money and jewels fastly available. He was casually discovered by a young man at the nineth floor, who had him run through the window and shouted for help from the balcony (so that the thief was actually seen descending and jumping to the ground by another resident on the opposite side of the road). The youth's parents had difficulties at risign from the bed, but nausea, sleepness and other troubles were accused by people at the eighth, sixth, fourth and second floor, too (the dog at the second remained strangely asleep all the following morning). The young lady at the eight floor found his phone and watch missing, plus a strong headache and also found strange glueing footprints inside his room. Just for the record. Regards Edoardo Russo Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici (but also member of the Italian Center for Contemporary Legends Collection)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Re: For The Record - Hayes From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 11:28:28 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 08:47:43 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: For The Record - Hayes >Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 14:55:39 -0400 >From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> >Subject: For The Record - Lovett >To: updates@sympatico.ca >With Errol's permission and tolerance, I would like to make a >note "for the record" regarding any posts that I make to this >list. I believe that Errol's own rules and guidelines are pretty >specific, but as an individual I would like to note the >following: <snip> >One site claims to have used my post with my permission, yet I >sure don't remember giving it. Hello Diane, Would this be a posting on the UFOINFO site? If so I would like to explain that I have asked the moderators of those lists if I can use occasional postings and that is what the 'used with permission' statement refers to. Having said that I do now realise that I should also have asked the poster of the message for permission as well and will do so in future. If you wish to have the posting removed please let me know and it will be done ASAP. If anyone else would like their posting removed from the UFOINFO site please let me know - you can use the 'site search' on the Contents page to check. Regards, John Hayes ufoinfo@ukgateway.net webmaster@ufoinfo.com UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com Official Archives for UFO Roundup, UK UFO Network Bulletin, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine plus archives of Filer's Files.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 07:45:56 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 08:50:30 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 7:42:16 -0400 >>From: Liz Hammond<lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 14:40:35 -0400 >From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Sandow >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>> >>Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 17:42:16 -0400 >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 03:42:12 -0400 >>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Lovett >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Hello Diane, hi All, >>>>It would be nice to put all the speculation to bed >>>>too. >>>a. This individual has not been tried in civil court. Any direct >>>references to this person would give him/her an opportunity to >>>sue me for defamation of character, loss of income, and other >>>equally nasty legal mumbo-jumbo. I needed to level the playing >>>field by putting people 'wise' but, I cannot afford expensive >>>lawyer fees for lengthy litigation that I would lose! Someone >>>else is in possession of 'evidence' connected to this incident. >>>Not I. >>>b. A direct reference would only serve to interfere with any >>>pending or future litigation against this person by the 140 >>>injured paties involved. >>John, >>Here's my two cents. I wouldn't hesitate to name the name if I >>had more than two credible sources telling me these things >>really happened. Or maybe even two credible, independent sources >>-- that's a standard often applied in journalism. If I were >>reporting on this for a newspaper or magazine, I might go to >>print with two sources. And it wouldn't in the least hurt the >>chances of those who might bring legal action. We see lawsuits >>in the news all the time. Doesn't hurt their chances for >>success. >>As you know, John, I made an effort to check this story, and >>found one credible source willing to confirm it. To my mind, the >>actions of the person we're not naming are outrageous, even >>though he's a respected abduction researcher, whose work I >>thought I generally admired. And actually there's one route to >>confirmation I haven't mentioned, which I'd certainly take if I >>were writing a journalistic report on this. Call the researcher >>and call the person who allegedly bought the files. If they both >>confirm the story, then I wouldn't hesitate, not for an instant, >>to print both names. >>Greg Sandow >Greg, >Since you are a journalist, and a good one too, are you >volunteering to take this issue on for "us" (the interested >public, and potentially the harmed individuals)? >If you have already found one credible source to verify the >story, do you feel it is a serious enough situation to warrant a >further investigation and perhaps publication by a journalist >such as yourself, perhaps through the primary figures such as >you suggested? >Personally I would think that if a journalist could even verify >that litigation was underway or had already occurred, reporting >this fact alone and the parties involved would be perfectly >safe, along with the outcome of current status of the >litigation. Wouldn't something like that be public record stuff? >Just asking for your thoughts and of course interested in what >your take is on pursuing this yourself. Dear Greg: I also don't understand how anything could happen to John by revealing the names of those involved. If the story is true and, as you say, verified by two credible sources, it seems that no problems should exist. However, there are more ways to skin the kitty than just going to court, and I support John's feeling that he has given all the information he's comfortable with. Even that much was a huge service to us all. I didn't know you were a journalist, Greg. If you should decide to go forward and write a piece on this I'd be happy to volunteer my services as a sort of long distance assistant. Phone calls, faxing, typing, etc. Only thing I won't do is get coffee... it would be cold by the time it got there! It is just good to know that we have someone on the List with the credentials and know-how for getting something like this done. Yours, Liz PS: Who do you write for? If that isn't too personal.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Stan Deyo - Lecture Cancelled Due To Ill Health From: Diane Harrison Director AUFORN <tkbnetw@powerup.com.au> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 21:45:23 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 08:52:11 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Stan Deyo - Lecture Cancelled Due To Ill Health Cancelled Due To Ill Health Sorry everyone 8TH July 2000 Mr. Stan Deyo Brisbane Australia Regards Diane Harrison Director Of The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia Co Director of The Australian UFO Research Network Australian Skywatch Director ~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<> THE KEITH BASTERFIELD NETWORK (A Non-Profit Organization) E-Mail: tkbnetw@powerup.com.au E-mail: ufologist@powerup.com.au http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw ADMINISTRATION: THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK (A Non-Profit Organization) PO Box 805 Springwood Qld 4127 Australia ~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<> Australian UFO Research Network Hotline Number 1800 77 22 88 Freecall ~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<> Disclaimer: The Keith Basterfield List Owners are not responsible for the content or misuse of this list. However, personal insults, flaming will not be tolerated. ~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: UFO Sightings OZ Files 06.05.2000 From: Diane Harrison Director AUFORN <tkbnetw@powerup.com.au> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 21:56:57 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 08:53:50 -0400 Subject: UpDate: UFO Sightings OZ Files 06.05.2000 UFO Sighting Hamersley Range Western Australia FOLLOWUP by Simon Harvey Willson UFORUM Callin Code: 00707 06.05.2000 WA Monday 15th May 2000 I phoned the man at the number below. He said that the UFO sighting he wished to report happened to his 35-year-old son in the week after the cyclone in Broome, WA, earlier this year. The son was driving towards Paraburdoo, which is just north of the Tropic of Capricorn and south of Karratha and Port Hedland in the Hamersley Range area of WA. He was driving at night and saw a red light ahead of him. The light paced his car no matter what speed he drove at. After some time he stopped because he felt the light was playing games with him, and because he realised he had bent his steering wheel by gripping it so hard. The light also stopped about 500 metres ahead of him. The witness then decided he had enough, so planted his foot and accelerated towards the light. The red light then rose into the air, changed into a white light and produced a spotlight beam down towards the road. It then went up further into a storm cloud which it seemed to illuminate from the inside for a while, and then it disappeared. When the witness reached the next petrol station stop he asked a lady there if anyone else had seen anything similar. At first she seemed reluctant to comment but later opened up and said that other people had had several similar sightings in that area. The father commented that the son was not worried about the sighting, but they were both interested to know about any similar ones. Best wishes Simon Harvey-Wilson Thankyou Simon for this followup UFO Sighting Moss Vale New South Wales FOLLOWUP Doug Moffett UFOR NSW REP AUFORN 1800 Callin Code: 00746 09.06.2000 NSW Date: 09.06.2000 Day: Friday Time Reported: 1.38pm Location: Moss Vale Reportee: Carolyn Report given to nearest rep: Doug Moffett Tel: 02 Report: About 3 months ago, Carolyn, her daughter and a young 13 yr old boy were out jogging at approx 9pm when they stopped to take a break. They lay on their backs taking in the beauty of the crystal clear night sky and were amazed at the activity�satellites, falling stars and such. After about 15 to 20 mins they noticed what appeared to be a satellite like object that began descending at a tremendous velocity and becoming very large and very very bright. The object appeared to be going to land but paused above the ground at approx twice the height of the Goodyear blimp. The object was like a flattened circle of very bright light. The object then whooshed off at an angle back up to the sky before disappearing into the atmosphere at great speed. The duration of the sighting was approx 15-20 seconds. Carolyn screamed during the incident in terror and grabbed her daughters arm in fear, her daughter was simply awestruck whilst the 13 yr old boy thought it a great adventure. All felt privelaged to have witnessed the event. The location of the sighting was a very remote area, devoid of other houses. Another interesting but sad aspect to this sighting is that Carolyn�s daughter ..a world famous child prodigy concert pianist..has not performed since the sighting and seems somewhat affected by the experience and has withdrawn from her previous close relationship with her mother. I have not included this in the aussiepost as it may identify Carolyn and her daughter�those who live in the highlands or have knowledge of the classical music scene would know who it was..as you could imagine. Regards Doug Moffett Thankyou Doug for this report UFO Sighting Para Hills, South Australia FOLLOWUP Charmaine Ballam AUFORN SA 1800 Callin Code: 00771 23.6.00 SA Report: Date: 20 June 2000 Day: Tuesday Time of sighting: 8.00pm Location: Para Hills, South Australia Reportee: Peter and Kim Report given to nearest rep: Charmaine Ballam Shape: Ball Size: Small Objects: One Colour: Orange Sound: NIL Duration: approx 3 min Direction: travelling East Weather Conditions: Clear night sky Witnesses: Peter, Kim and next door neighbour On Tuesday the 20th at 8.00pm, Peter whilst outside, saw a small orange ball in the sky, he called out to his wife to come and have a look. Peter said "It was orange in colour, like when you burn a piece of paper, the colour of the flame". Whilst they were outside observing the object, Peter called out to his neighbour, who was standing in his front yard, to have a look. His neighbour also confirmed that he saw the object. The object was approx 50 metres high, travelling East on a parallel course. During the 3min sighting it held a constant speed and height. They did not hear any noise coming from the object and as they continued to watch, the colour remained constant then it seem to flicker as it lost altitude and disappeared. Peter states, that during the years he and his wife have lived in this house, they have become accustomed to the various planes that fly over due to the nearby Parafield Airport. They both state, that what they saw, was not a plane, his neighbour agrees. His wife Kim contacted the UFO Hotline not only to report this sighting, but to see if anyone else had reported something similar. Charmaine Ballam AUFORN rep SA www.destinationspace.net Thankyou Charmaine for this report UFO Sighting Wynnum Queensland FOLLOWUP Diane Harrison AUFORN Qld 1800 Callin Code 00777 - 02.07.2000 Qld Date: 02.07.2000 Day: Sunday Time Reported: 7.36 p.m. Location: Wynnum. Reportee: Alan Lane Report given to nearest rep: Diane Harrison Tel: 07 3 Report Time: 5.25 pm Shape: Star like Size: ? Objects: 1 Colour: orange Sound: None Speed: slow Duration: 3 Minute Direction: Traveling South easterly out over Fisherman Island Witnesses: 3 Gordon wife Jane and Alan. Gordon said It was an orange ball of light some what like a flare. This object moved quite slowly in the direction of the Airport, it was around 5000 feet we think. I did call the Brisbane control tower and they said they had nothing unusual on radar.....only general traffic. Gordon and his wife are quite adamant it was not a plane or an Helicopter. Gordon did say he had contacted UFORQ they said they would send a report form out. Regards Diane Regards Diane Harrison Director Of The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia Co Director of The Australian UFO Research Network Australian Skywatch Director ~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<> THE KEITH BASTERFIELD NETWORK (A Non-Profit Organization) E-Mail: tkbnetw@powerup.com.au E-mail: ufologist@powerup.com.au http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw ADMINISTRATION: THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK (A Non-Profit Organization) PO Box 805 Springwood Qld 4127 Australia ~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<> Australian UFO Research Network Hotline Number 1800 77 22 88 Freecall ~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<> Disclaimer: The Keith Basterfield List Owners are not responsible for the content or misuse of this list. However, personal insults, flaming will not be tolerated. ~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Re: For The Record - Kaeser From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 09:24:15 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 09:28:29 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: For The Record - Kaeser >Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 00:01:03 -0400 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >Subject: Re: For The Record >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >It's really amazing how people take information on the web and, >not to mince words, steal it, or at least appropriate it for >their own use. Someone not too long ago even stole part of my >website, and reposted it as his own. Luckily for me, he was a >college student, and when I informed the dean of his school and >the computer people there about what had happened, they made the >kid take my stuff off his site. > >There's one simple protection we all might try, and that's to >type "list only" at the top of our posts. Obviously, this won't >prevent anyone from stealing our stuff, but maybe a few people >will think twice. > >Diane, you've identified an important problem. > >Greg Sandow I have had problems with some private email ending up posted to the "net" without permission, and so I often include a request that information be kept private when it is forwarded directly to a single individual. Unfortunately, I've had one or two replies from individuals (whom I didn't know very well at the time) who fired back that they didn't have time to keep track of what comments were "private" or "public". As you might imagine, I no longer communicate directly with those individuals. But (IMO) the Internet will have major impacts on our ability to copyright information and ideas. The International nature of the "net" and human nature will likely result in a re-thinking of the process of protecting one's information and developments. This is a much wider problem than the Internet, of course. I have had numerous conversations with those who have been included on various UFO videos and television shows and learned that they had no idea that their image and comments were used in that particular production. In some cases these "interviews" were simply archived and edited for use in follow-up programs, and in other cases they were probably "lifted" from other shows as what is believed to be public domain material. Using "List Only" will possibly help to limit the use of postings by a few people, but it still remains too easy to lose control of your words. My general rule is that I wouldn't want to post anything that I would regret seeing on the front page of the Washington Post. I have no reason to believe that anything I might say would be of great interest, but you never know. Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 08:50:47 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 09:53:05 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Clark >Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 01:12:44 -0500 >From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> >Subject: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? >To: updates@sympatico.ca Tim, >A friend of mine doing some research on the Joe Simonton, Eagle >River case (you know, the "pancake case") recently came across a >brief online database which listed the case as 'solved.' Upon >contacting the webmaster, my friend received the following >response: >"just found out about this recently, in a book. It was revealed >that the sighting was the result of a post-hypnotic suggestion >given to him at one of the "hypnosis for fun" sessions at >parties. Those were common at that time. I believe it was in one >of Peter Brookesmith's books, but I don't have the books here in >the building where the computer is, and I am going on vacation >beginning tonight, so I won't be able to look this up for a >couple of weeks. The hypnosis story is a total crock. It was a practical joke played on a credulous local APRO member -- and now, apparently, a whole new generation of credulous ufologists. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 07:17:55 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 10:30:18 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Hatch >Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 08:50:47 -0500 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 01:12:44 -0500 >>From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> >>Subject: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >Tim, >>A friend of mine doing some research on the Joe Simonton, Eagle >>River case (you know, the "pancake case") recently came across a >>brief online database which listed the case as 'solved.' Upon >>contacting the webmaster, my friend received the following >>response: >>"just found out about this recently, in a book. It was revealed >>that the sighting was the result of a post-hypnotic suggestion >>given to him at one of the "hypnosis for fun" sessions at >>parties. Those were common at that time. I believe it was in one >>of Peter Brookesmith's books, but I don't have the books here in >>the building where the computer is, and I am going on vacation >>beginning tonight, so I won't be able to look this up for a >>couple of weeks. >The hypnosis story is a total crock. It was a practical joke >played on a credulous local APRO member -- and now, apparently, >a whole new generation of credulous ufologists. Dear Jerry: Now you done messed up my pancakes. Darn. - Larry Hatch PS: I have a tiny can of genuine Vermont syrup too. Double darn.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Brigham From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 10:24:39 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 11:34:15 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Brigham >Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 08:50:47 -0500 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 01:12:44 -0500 >>From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> >>Subject: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >Tim, >>A friend of mine doing some research on the Joe Simonton, Eagle >>River case (you know, the "pancake case") recently came across a >>brief online database which listed the case as 'solved.' Upon >>contacting the webmaster, my friend received the following >>response: >>"just found out about this recently, in a book. It was revealed >>that the sighting was the result of a post-hypnotic suggestion >>given to him at one of the "hypnosis for fun" sessions at >>parties. Those were common at that time. I believe it was in one >>of Peter Brookesmith's books, but I don't have the books here in >>the building where the computer is, and I am going on vacation >>beginning tonight, so I won't be able to look this up for a >>couple of weeks. >The hypnosis story is a total crock. It was a practical joke >played on a credulous local APRO member -- and now, apparently, >a whole new generation of credulous ufologists. Jerry, We were all fairly skeptical of that "explanation." thanks for confirming that. Can you fill us in on what you mean by "a joke on a credulous APRO member?" Now I'm wondering where it was published as an explanation. Also, do you know what eventually happened to the 'pancakes?' I've handled the blue book physical evidence files and there is no sign of them or record of what happened to them. I know at least one was analyzed. Were they destroyed in the analysis, or did they just rot away or something? Best, Tim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Re: oe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 10:23:54 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 11:35:44 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: oe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Clark >Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 07:17:55 -0700 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >Subject: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Clark >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 08:50:47 -0500 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 01:12:44 -0500 >>>From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> >>>Subject: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca Larry, >Now you done messed up my pancakes. >Darn. Well, from the account or two we have of the Simonton- pancake taste test, they tasted like... well, suffice it to say they weren't very good. Stick with your usual terrestrial recipes, and you should be okay. Actually, come to think of it, that's good advice for all of us. Cheers, Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 10:59:24 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 13:20:56 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Clark >Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 10:24:39 -0500 >From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> >Subject: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 08:50:47 -0500 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 01:12:44 -0500 >>>From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> >>>Subject: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca Hi, Tim, >>The hypnosis story is a total crock. It was a practical joke >>played on a credulous local APRO member -- and now, apparently, >>a whole new generation of credulous ufologists. >We were all fairly skeptical of that "explanation." thanks for >confirming that. Can you fill us in on what you mean by "a joke >on a credulous APRO member?" A local businessman told the yarn to APRO member Cecile Hess, who swallowed it whole. Even APRO took it seriously, at least briefly. The tale's first appearance in print is in the September 1961 issue of the A.P.R.O. Bulletin. Subsequently, it was revealed to be a prank to local judge and UFO buff Frank Carter, who confronted Hess's informant. Even Project Blue Book, which was desperate for an explanation, didn't accept it, choosing instead to believe (on not much better evidence) that Simonton had experienced some sort of hallucination. See the discussion on pp. 348-49 of The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed. >Also, do you know what eventually happened to the 'pancakes?' >I've handled the blue book physical evidence files and there is >no sign of them or record of what happened to them. I know at >least one was analyzed. Were they destroyed in the analysis, or >did they just rot away or something? The sole surviving pancake is in the possession of ufologist Barry Greenwood. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 09:06:41 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 13:23:00 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Hatch >Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 10:24:39 -0500 >From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> >Subject: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 08:50:47 -0500 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 01:12:44 -0500 >>>From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> >>>Subject: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Tim, >>>A friend of mine doing some research on the Joe Simonton, Eagle >>>River case (you know, the "pancake case") recently came across a >>>brief online database which listed the case as 'solved.' Upon >>>contacting the webmaster, my friend received the following >>>response: >>>"just found out about this recently, in a book. It was revealed >>>that the sighting was the result of a post-hypnotic suggestion >>>given to him at one of the "hypnosis for fun" sessions at >>>parties. Those were common at that time. I believe it was in one >>>of Peter Brookesmith's books, but I don't have the books here in >>>the building where the computer is, and I am going on vacation >>>beginning tonight, so I won't be able to look this up for a >>>couple of weeks. >>The hypnosis story is a total crock. It was a practical joke >>played on a credulous local APRO member -- and now, apparently, >>a whole new generation of credulous ufologists. >Jerry, >We were all fairly skeptical of that "explanation." thanks for >confirming that. Can you fill us in on what you mean by "a joke >on a credulous APRO member?" >Now I'm wondering where it was published as an explanation. >Also, do you know what eventually happened to the 'pancakes?' >I've handled the blue book physical evidence files and there is >no sign of them or record of what happened to them. I know at >least one was analyzed. Were they destroyed in the analysis, or >did they just rot away or something? Dear Tim: I have heard that they tasted pretty awful. I'm no flapjack expert, but the most I heard was that they were third rate at best, and definitely nothing to offer tourists on the way up to Mount Palomar for example. - Larry Hatch PS: I just got royally flamed on another list because I cast doubt on how the Annunaki used Homo Sapiens, 400,000 years ago, to run their gold mines in East Africa. Copies on request. Pancakes cost extra. Best wishes - Larry Hatch - - - - - - - -
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 12:19:25 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 13:24:34 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Sandow >Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 07:45:56 -0400 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >I didn't know you were a journalist, Greg. If you should decide >to go forward and write a piece on this I'd be happy to >volunteer my services as a sort of long distance assistant. >Phone calls, faxing, typing, etc. Only thing I won't do is get >coffee... it would be cold by the time it got there! You wouldn't have to do windows, either! <g>Seriously, that's a very kind offer. Unfortunately, I can't take on something like this right now, as I've said...very sad, how one of my freelance day jobs has been eating my life. I've also resumed my career as a composer, which I abandoned nearly 20 years ago, and that's very happily taking my time. >It is just good to know that we have someone on the List with >the credentials and know-how for getting something like this >done. A lot of journalism is common sense, I've often thought. I got into it from being a musician. Then someone offered me a job as a music critic, and with that came the opportunity to do journalistic pieces, where you go and find things out. I never had any training for it, that's for sure! >Yours, >Liz >PS: Who do you write for? If that isn't too personal. Not too personal, and I've probably mentioned it here before. (Not that everyone is required to notice or remember!). I began as a columnist for the Village Voice, here in New York, our only alternative weekly at the time. Then I branched out and did a lot of freelance writing. Eventually I defected from classical music to pop, and became pop music critic for the Los Angeles Herald-Examiner, at the time the no. 2 daily in LA, but now defunct. There I did lots of reporting -- going out and finding out what was really going on in various situations. After that, I was music critic and then music editor for Entertainment Weekly, a big national magazine, and eventually critic at large for them. Now I've returned to classical music, and write freelance music reviews for the Wall Street Journal, though often I'll mix reporting with a review. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Re: For The Record - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 12:25:13 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 13:26:29 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: For The Record - Sandow >Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 09:24:15 -0400 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >Subject: Re: For The Record >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Using "List Only" will possibly help to limit the use of >postings by a few people, but it still remains too easy to lose >control of your words. My general rule is that I wouldn't want >to post anything that I would regret seeing on the front page of >the Washington Post. I have no reason to believe that anything I >might say would be of great interest, but you never know. That's a very wise position. There's an interesting legal question here -- is UFO UpDates (along with other e-mail lists) a public forum? Is posting a message here the equivalent of writing a letter to a newspaper, or publishing an article? Or are these still private communications? Seems like a gray area to me. (Which makes Steve's position all the more persuasive.) Maybe some day we'll have some legal precedents. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 09:47:33 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 13:29:22 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Hatch >Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 10:23:54 -0500 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Larry, >>Now you done messed up my pancakes. >>Darn. >Well, from the account or two we have of the Simonton- pancake >taste test, they tasted like... well, suffice it to say they >weren't very good. >Stick with your usual terrestrial recipes, and you should be >okay. Actually, come to think of it, that's good advice for all >of us. - - - - Dear Jerome: I'm not making this up now, but I just mixed an egg with milk, (no beer) and flour etc., and I don't expect much better results. I don't know what gets into me, and others, who think they can make better flapjacks, call them what you will. There is no such thing as a better pancake, just nicer folks pretending they know how, that's all. Sorry - Larry Hatch PS: For years on end, when I was little, my parents would stop at Tiny's restaurant in Los Banos, CA. Los Banos was midway on CA 152 between the Coast Highway (US 101) and the real road (US 99) down to Los Angeles where all those funny looking people were. Tiny's always served up the same pancakes, and we all got sick, and once again on the next trip down. Nobody ever suggested a change of venue, highway 152 (then a roller coaster) was too much fun, and I was a luciky kid with good parents. Why am I telling everyone all this? Maybe because I saved up my barf until I hit Auntie Anne's place. She was a health nut and darned near drove everybody else nuts. I would cut loose on her awful looking rug, imagining that I could improve upon Los Angeles. Again and again, I was proven wrong. Gee whiz. - Larry Hatch - - - - - - - - -
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Mysterious New Object? From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 13:09:34 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 13:34:16 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Mysterious New Object? A little dated but still interesting. Can anyone provide any more recent info? Diane Source: The Millenium Group http://www.millenngroup.com/IMAGES/Mystery_Obj4.jpg Mysterious New Object By John Maynard and Jamie Stensrud April 24, 2000 Astronomers Baffled by Mysterious New Object A new object dubbed XTE J1118+480 appeared seemingly out of nowhere on March 29th this year and has been the subject of much debate. When describing this new object, Robotic Optical Transient Search Experiment scientist Jim Wren of Los Alamos Laboratories and Ron Remillard of MIT have described it as "a mystery", "a beast" and as "a slow moving searchlight." These unique comments set this discovery apart from other routine discoveries of new objects. Consequently, this particular discovery stands out like a red flag, simply because it has left astronomers in a baffled state. Why are astronomers baffled? They say this new object looks like a black hole but does not behave like a black hole. It looks like a pulsar but it does not behave like a pulsar. In the rush to assign some kind of significance to this new object, individuals from outside the scientific community have been quick to assign their own interpretations of this baffling new object. So far we have heard, or read that: * The signal being sent from this new object is a mathematical code (Contact anyone?). * It is tied to Hale-Bopp and the companion. * The object is a massive dead comet being guided toward earth. What we will attempt to do in this article is explain what this object appears to not be, and on the other hand, what it may actually be. Then, we'll share something with you that may delight you. But first, let's start with the facts. _____ The Facts LOCATION: XTE J1118+480 is located in the area of the Big Dipper at coordinates RA: 11h18m17s, DEC: +48 degrees, 3 minutes. Amateur astronomers can observe this object with a high quality scope (4-6" minimum.). OBSERVED BEHAVIOR: The following evidence has come to light regarding this object: * XTE J1118+480, appeared seemingly out of nowhere on March 29th, and has been subject to much debate over its nature. * TMG has learned that this object also appeared in January, at which time it brightened, remained steady for a few hours, then faded. * It seems to pulse, with an apparent time of approximately four hours between pulses, or the interval between brightness peaks. * This object is not located in the plane of the galaxy, where the vast majority of stars are located, but rather above it. _____ Explaining Away the Obvious Current theory holds that the light from the object does not come from the object itself, but from an area surrounding it. This agrees with a known phenomenon called an accretion disk, a flattened-out area of matter (mostly gas, some dust), spinning around and into an object with a high gravitational field. When a massive star or black hole moves through space, it attracts matter, and, following basic laws of angular momentum, the spinning of the object draws this matter into a disk with the same rotational plane as the object itself. As the object's gravity draws the matter closer, the matter speeds up and begins to heat, emitting first infrared (heat) energy, then moving up the spectrum through visible light and into the x-ray and gamma- ray zones. These emissions would appear to come from the object itself if the accretion disk is sufficiently small or the object a great distance away. A number of theoretical objects fit into this pattern. The first is a black hole, an object formed when a massive star collapses in on itself at the end of its lifetime, its gravity no longer sufficient to support its increased mass (caused by fusion reactions in its core during its latter stages). It is doubtful this newly discovered object is a black hole - the emissions of light are too regular for a standard accretion disk. A neutron star also fits into this pattern, and is perhaps more probable. In binary star systems (where two stars orbit each other), the more massive one will frequently draw matter off the lighter one, sending it spiraling toward its surface (forming a small accretion disk) where it speeds up and heats (as in the case of a black hole). In this scenario the bursts of light would in fact be regular, as the incoming stream of matter approaches "critical mass" and is annihilated in great emissions of energy. This energy is then funneled to the rotational axes of the object, making it a veritable "flashlight", sweeping its beam around as it spins. The only problem with this is - when this happens, the pulses are extremely rapid, on the order of thousands every second (hence the name "pulsar" being given to neutron stars of this nature). A pulsar with a period of four hours has never been observed before. (These ideas are the accepted theories of current NASA thought, not necessarily the tenets of TMG). _____ What It Could Be If XTE J1118+480 is not a black hole or a pulsar, what could it be? The possibilities include: * A new Burster-type object (a family of objects which emit bursts of energy at regular intervals), or some new kind of previously unknown object. * It could be an extremely ancient pulsar, which may account for its location outside the plane of the galaxy. * More likely, it's something we've never come across before and are struggling to fit it into our current understanding of the universe. _____ Conclusion We have already spent a considerable amount of time searching through NASA to see what we could discover, which sad to say was not much. Is this because NASA is uninterested in this baffling new object? Or has the astrophysics world (where grants and money call the shots) failed to yield up an individual who is willing to swim against the tide and to air all the facts. We also searched MIT http://space.mit.edu/ Space Research Center, but could only come up with an e-mail address for Ron Remillard http://web.mit.edu/bin/cgicso?query=Remillard , at Los Alamos. The websites were a much more difficult place to search for information. As of the writing of this article, no new news articles other than those hyperlinked above (from either institution), have been presented to the press or posted to their respective webpages. The lack of follow-through by the scientific community on XTE J1118+480 is terribly disappointing, because it could hold the key to an unimaginable wealth of new knowledge about the universe. More evidence is needed to make a proper identification. Because this object can be observed by enthusiasts with high quality amateur scopes, we urge both professional and amateur astronomers to intensify study of this baffling new object and to submit their results in an objective and open manner.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Re: For The Record - Salvaille From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 13:23:35 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 13:37:46 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: For The Record - Salvaille >Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 11:28:28 +0100 >From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com> >Subject: Re: For The Record >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 14:55:39 -0400 >>From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> >>Subject: For The Record - Lovett >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>With Errol's permission and tolerance, I would like to make a >>note "for the record" regarding any posts that I make to this >>list. I believe that Errol's own rules and guidelines are pretty >>specific, but as an individual I would like to note the >>following: <snip> >>One site claims to have used my post with my permission, yet I >>sure don't remember giving it. >Hello Diane, >Would this be a posting on the UFOINFO site? If so I would like >to explain that I have asked the moderators of those lists if I >can use occasional postings and that is what the 'used with >permission' statement refers to. >Having said that I do now realise that I should also have asked >the poster of the message for permission as well and will do so >in future. If you wish to have the posting removed please let me >know and it will be done ASAP. >If anyone else would like their posting removed from the UFOINFO >site please let me know - you can use the 'site search' on the >Contents page to check. <snip> Hello John, Diane and List. Any production of any individual is protected by Copyright. One does not have to register his work at the Copyright Office to own a Copyright. http://www.loc.gov/copyright/faq.html#q2 " 1. What does copyright protect? Copyright, a form of intellectual property law, protects original works of authorship including literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works such as poetry, novels, movies, songs, computer software and architecture. Copyright does not protect facts, ideas, systems, or methods of operation, although it may protect the way these things are expressed. 2. When is my work protected? Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form so that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device. " The posters own the post; EBK owns the post collection. EBK is the book editor; the posters are the authors. As such, the poster and EBK should both be asked permission to use a post, even granted royalties if it turns out that the posts are used for commercial purposes. The Copyright Law is pretty straightforward: you created it, you own it; somebody else created it, ask. Real life dictates a different modus operandi: we perceive that no ill thinking implies no wrongdoing. I have been _notified_ in the past that one of my post had been used on a site regarding the Belgium flap. I wasn't asked. The person started with: "I took the liberty..." No problem with me - good will is the essence of civilization. Of course, Bob Kiviat would have had a different reaction :). In any event, I believe that, in a legalistic world such as ours, it would be wise to protect _yourself_ and ask for permission. Regards, Serge
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Re: For The Record - Lovett From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 14:03:32 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 14:40:03 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: For The Record - Lovett >>Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 11:28:28 +0100 >>From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com> >>Subject: Re: For The Record >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 14:55:39 -0400 >>>From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> >>>Subject: For The Record - Lovett >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>With Errol's permission and tolerance, I would like to make a >>>note "for the record" regarding any posts that I make to this >>>list. I believe that Errol's own rules and guidelines are pretty >>>specific, but as an individual I would like to note the >>>following: ><snip> >>>One site claims to have used my post with my permission, yet I >>>sure don't remember giving it. >>Hello Diane, >>Would this be a posting on the UFOINFO site? If so I would like >>to explain that I have asked the moderators of those lists if I >>can use occasional postings and that is what the 'used with >>permission' statement refers to. >>Having said that I do now realise that I should also have asked >>the poster of the message for permission as well and will do so >>in future. If you wish to have the posting removed please let me >>know and it will be done ASAP. >>If anyone else would like their posting removed from the UFOINFO >>site please let me know - you can use the 'site search' on the >>Contents page to check. ><snip> Hi John, Actually I hadn't seen that one! I had a look, and I don't mind that post being there at all, you have my permission to leave it up. Whenever I send out something that is a general news item or report like that I don't generally have a problem with anyone passing it along as long as it is in the correct context. The ones that worry me are those that are more personal in nature, thoughts, theories, experiences, opinions and such. Most of us fire off things like that from time to time, usually in response to something someone else posted, and those are the things that I don't feel should be copied anywhere else. Thanks for noting this one for me. Diane
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Re: Mysterious New Object? - Cuthbertson From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 14:34:34 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 16:15:48 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Mysterious New Object? - Cuthbertson Mystery object XTE J1118+480 >Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 13:09:34 -0400 >From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> >Subject: Mysterious New Object? >To: updates@sympatico.ca >A little dated but still interesting. Can anyone provide any >more recent info? >Diane >Source: The Millenium Group >http://www.millenngroup.com/IMAGES/Mystery_Obj4.jpg >Mysterious New Object >By John Maynard and Jamie Stensrud April 24, 2000 >Astronomers Baffled by Mysterious New Object >A new object dubbed XTE J1118+480 appeared seemingly out of >nowhere on March 29th this year and has been the subject of much >debate. When describing this new object, Robotic Optical >Transient Search Experiment scientist Jim Wren of Los Alamos >Laboratories and Ron Remillard of MIT have described it as "a >mystery", "a beast" and as "a slow moving searchlight." These >unique comments set this discovery apart from other routine >discoveries of new objects. Consequently, this particular >discovery stands out like a red flag, simply because it has left >astronomers in a baffled state. Diane, Below is the online version of the International Astronomical (IAU) Circular, #7389, that announced this object. The circular isn't any more recent than your article, but it provides a little extra info: http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/iauc/07300/07389.html You might also try a quoted search on one of the big search engines, like mamma.com. Its always amazing what odd stuff pops up. -Brian Cuthbertson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: CPR-Canada News: Research Assistance 2000 From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 12:28:15 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 18:39:44 -0400 Subject: UpDate: CPR-Canada News: Research Assistance 2000 CPR-CANADA NEWS The E-News Service of Circles Phenomenon Research Canada http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada July 3, 2000 _____________________________ RESEARCH ASSISTANCE 2000 Circles Phenomenon Research Canada, the Canadian affiliate of Circles Phenomenon Research International, is seeking the continued assistance of farmers, media, pilots, police / RCMP, scientists, the general public and other researchers in its investigative efforts. Reporting Formations Reports of crop circles (or other formations, ie. circles / rings in grass, ice or snow), including additional supporting materials, may be submitted to the main office in BC (see below) or to the provincial / regional offices (BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Ontario and Quebec; contact information on the web site). Report forms are available on request or a copy can be downloaded from the web site. Please include as much detail as possible. It is urgently requested that reports be forwarded as soon after discovery as possible so that a proper investigation may be initiated. In Canada, most formations are reported between July and September, often around harvest, predominately in Saskatchewan and Alberta. 20 formations were reported across the country in 1999, in BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Ontario, Quebec and Prince Edward Island. Full reports are in the 1999 Report Archive on the web site and in the 1999 Summary Report. The first formation in 2000, a set of five rings and other patterns in pasture grass was found on June 19, near Willmar, Saskatchewan (report, images on web site). Field Research For those interested in assisting with on-site investigations, field research is conducted at circle locations as they are found, including photo and video documentation (both aerial and ground if possible), surveying and plant / soil sampling for lab analysis, as well as investigation of other possibly related phenomena. An excellent opportunity for hands-on experience with this phenomenon! Field investigations are conducted in coordination with the BLT Research Team and other research groups. Information on sampling protocols for lab analysis by the BLT Research Team is also available: http://www.bltresearch.net All applicable laws are strictly adhered to, and under no circumstance is a farmer's field or other property entered without expressed permission. Names and locations are kept confidential if requested and will not be released publicly without permission in those cases. Thank you for your cooperation. Other Assistance Additional volunteer assistance is also needed and welcomed, including provincial coordinators (for Manitoba, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island) as well as additional regional representatives. Extensive resources are available to all interested persons or groups. Free periodic e-mail updates are also available for those wanting to keep up to date on the latest news and developments (CPR-Canada News). For further information, to submit reports or to become more involved, please contact: CIRCLES PHENOMENON RESEARCH CANADA Main Office Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue Vancouver, BC V6J 1J4 Canada Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522 Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454 E-Mail: psa@direct.ca Web: http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada REPORTING HOTLINE: 604.731.8522 _____________________________ See also the CPR-Canada web site for complete listings of news stories, reports and related information and links: http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada _____________________________ CPR-Canada News is the electronic news service of Circles Phenomenon Research Canada (affiliate of Circles Phenomenon Research International), providing periodic updates with the latest news and reports, as well as information on CPR-Canada -related news and events. CPR-Canada News is edited by Paul Anderson and published by CPR-Canada, and is available free by subscription; to be added to or removed from the mailing list, send your request, including "subscribe CPR-Canada News" or "unsubscribe CPR-Canada News" and e-mail address to: psa@direct.ca For further information, submissions or inquiries, forward all correspondence to: CIRCLES PHENOMENON RESEARCH CANADA Circles Phenomenon Research International Main Office Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue Vancouver, BC V6J 1J4 Canada Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522 Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454 E-Mail: psa@direct.ca Web: http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada REPORTING HOTLINE: 604.731.8522 _____________________________ � Circles Phenomenon Research Canada, 2000
The UFO UpDates Archive Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Filer's Files #26 -- 2000 From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 17:50:53 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 18:43:14 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Filer's Files #26 -- 2000 Filer's Files #26, Salute to the UFO Patriots Filer's Files #26 -- 2000, MUFON Skywatch Investigations George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern July 3, 2000, Majorstar@aol.com, Sponsored by Electronic Arts Web Site at: http://www.filersfiles.com.-Chuck Warren Webmaster. ON JULY 4TH, WE SALUTE THOSE AMERICANS AND OUR ALLIES who have given their lives, their fortunes, to support democracy in the US and other nations. Many of us are convinced that our Earth is being visited by alien craft. These aliens may be our friends or a deadly enemy, but to ignore them is foolishness. We encourage the news media to consider that we receive thousands of reports each year from witnesses who see, photograph and video UFOs. One eyewitness in a court of law can convict and put to death a murderer. Why are multiple witnesses ridiculed and ignored if they see a UFO? Just look at NASA shuttle tapes with an open mind. There are UFOs all over the place. I'm convinced it is our patriotic duty to find the answer to what is in our skies. Ignoring a threat does not make it go away. I have numerous friends who have served our country gallantly who have chased or seen UFOs, I wish to thank the patriots who had the courage to report UFOs despite the ridicule. In some ways this is harder than going into battle. Have a great summer. THE EARTH WILL REACH ITS GREATEST DISTANCE FROM THE SUN this year on the 4th of July, but don't expect a break from the heat of northern summer. The Earth has a slightly elliptical orbit around the sun. The sun is in an eleven year solar storm cycle that appears to effect UFO activity. Low solar storm activity and high number of reports. Now with high solar storm activty, reports in June are about half the number of last year's. Low UFO activity may reflect the high cost of aviation fuel this year? But since 1947, when high UFO activity was first reported there appears to a reverse relationship between solar storm activity and UFO reports. Air Force Blue Book files reveal over a thousand reports for 1952, 1957, and 1966 years with relatively low solar activity. TEN PERCENT OF UFO REPORTS REMAIN UNEXPLAINED Royal Air Force Director of Intelligence, R. V. Jones, states in the Condon Report that, "Over the period from January 1959 to September 1967, the British Ministry of Defence received 6254 UFO reports. Seventy remain unexplained after investigation. For comparison, the American figures, given by the Staff of Project Bluebook are 6817 alleged sightings in the years 1953 to 1965, of these, 1248 were reported too vaguely to allow an attempt at explanation. Of the remaining 5569, there were 237 for which explanations could not be found. Summarizing the British and American experience, it appears perhaps 10% of the sightings cannot be explained. In this residue, it is probable that the majority of witnesses have made substantial errors in their descriptions. A point of dispute is whether after such errors have been allowed for, there is enough left that is unexplained to make us think that there is a gap in our knowledge either of natural phenomena or of an extraterrestrial invasion of our atmosphere, perhaps by intelligently controlled spacecraft." The Scientific Study of Unidentified Flying Objects, Dr. Edward Condon Director, pages 929-930 HINTS OF LIFE ON MARS -- The crust of the planet Mars may hold two to three times more water than scientists had previously believed. Additionally, new photos show obvious areas of water erosion apparently caused by flowing water. Water is the universal solvent that life must have to exist. Scientists appear a little perplexed since the temperatures are thought to average only -50 Centigrade and water on Earth freezes at O Centigrade. Apparently the water on Mars is not the same as our water, it is probably much heavier. This finding is based on a study by Dr. Laurie A. Leshin of Arizona State University, whose report will be published in Geophysical Research Letters on July 15. She compared the amount of deuterium, an isotope of hydrogen, found in the Martian atmosphere. Deuterium, a heavier form of hydrogen, combines with oxygen to make "heavy" water. In today's thin Martian atmosphere, water has a deuterium-to-hydrogen ratio five times higher than is found in water on Earth. The heavy water compound mixed with other chemicals found in sea water may have a much lower freezing temperature than water here on Earth. Comets probably carried water rich in deuterium to Mars since they have the same ratio of deuterium as Martian interior water. The core of Mars may generate heat thawing the water of the planets anciet ocean. There have been reports of geysers and infrared indications that heat exists. Our ancestors may have been Martian since some hardy Martian organisms may have survived a journey through space and colonized Earth. As you read this, flash floods may be carving new channels on Mars as photography shows clear evidence of erosion caused by floods. These new findings point to the likelihood of life on Mars, since almost every where on Earth where water has been found life exists. Life flourishes in even the most unlikeliest places such as 10,000 feet below the surface in Antarctica. Scientists claim its just too cold on Mars for life but ethylene glycol or methyl alcohol retard freezing and melt ice. We use them everyday in our autos to keep them from freezing. We may have unknown chemicals, minerals, or unknown heat sources that occur on Mars that create flowing water. "Obviously Mars looks dry from photographs, but it is quite possible that a layer of permafrost exists beneath the planet's surface evaporating into the atmosphere at a very slow rate. There is even the possibility that, in some regions, sufficient water is collected to form subsurface oceans." These are not my ideas, but they are contained in the Air Force's Environmental Space Science's Book taught at the Air Force Academy 1972. Every few years tremendous windstorms occur on Mars with 200 mph winds that raise voluminous dust clouds and obscure the surface. When these winds subside, there is a noticeable greening of the planet. This greening according to scientists is actually greenish ferrites making it appear the planet has vegetation or micro organisms similar to lichen. This is called false foliage, but perhaps there really is a form of life? Up until a few weeks ago, we were told there was little or no water and no life on Mars based on findings from the Viking Lander. I suggest inaccurate testing was accomplished by the Viking Lander. NEW YORK CITY BLACK DISC MANHATTAN -- On Tuesday, June 27, 2000, five witnesses observed a partial black ring which they described as a flattened "U" shape slowly movng overhead across the sky towards the northeast at 8:00 PM. The sky was light in the early summer evening when five witnesses saw a donut or "U" shaped craft. It was different from the sky and was likely a light colored material which was blocking our view of the rest of the dark ring, thereby creating the initial impression of the flattened "U" shape. All I can say is, the way it looked and the way it moved it was not tumbling or changing orientation. It was a black partial ring with a light sky-colored or perhaps shiny reflective material transmitting the color of the sky. It filled the interior and seemingly blocked our view of the rest of the black ring, giving a black flattened "U" shape moving slowly, steadily, and solidly across the sky. It was an unusual ring flew out of site due to extreme distance. I have seen nor heard of no other which quite fits the same description, although I have been studying this field for several decades. It is hard to determine the size, but I would guess it was a bit smaller than a 747 aircraft at 3 or 4000 feet up. There were five of us watching the object as it flew over lower-mid-Manhattan heading east-northeast. The consensus was we saw a UFO. Thanks to Larry Clark www.nymufon.org. and Steve Jones gargoyle@echonyc.com NEW JERSEY ELLIPTICAL BLACK UFO SEEN MONTCLAIR -- On Saturday, June 18, 2000, at approximately 7:00 PM, Max Gebhardt sighted a strange dark object high in the sky. Max reported, "The UFO approached from the northwest and departed to the west. It was a very small black object, possibly a U-2 or a low-orbit satellite, very near the air traffic corridors." Montclair is only 13 miles west of New York City. "I lost sight of it after 15 minutes due to its size. It was tiny, black, elliptical, possibly very far away, maybe 20 to 30 miles flying at 30,000 feet at about 550 miles per hour." Thanks to UFO Roundup Vol. 5 # 26 June 29, 2000 Editor: Joseph Trainor GEORGIA GREEN BEAM" AND "SHOOTING STAR TROUP COUNTY -- Researcher John Thompson reports a father, his fourteen-year-old son and friend saw a strange "green beam" in the sky on Saturday, June 17, 2000." Standing outside on Old Chipley Road at 1:30 AM the two boys saw the beam while looking southeast towards Pine Mountain. Turning around one boy said, "Do you see that?" The other, looking up, replied "Yea." At about a half-a-mile way, perhaps in extreme north Harris County, the boys saw a laser-like "ocean-green beam" standing between a low-hanging cloud and the ground. The beam was perpendicular to the ground and had an equal diameter its entire length. The somewhat dark green beam did not expand or retract; it was just there when they saw it. Watching the beam for "four seconds" one boy said it "totally went away." It did not fade; recede or contract but simply vanished while the boys had their eyes on it. Ten to fifteen seconds later, the boys saw a strange bright white shooting star fly south where the beam had just been seen. This seemed a rather odd coincidence. To this investigator it brought to mind a stranger incident in south Troup County that seemed to have a "cause and effect" relationship involving a "shooting-star" like object. On October 10, 1996, a TV producer was driving northwest on the Big Springs-Stovall Road at around 10:00 PM when he noticed a bright, white, star-like light above a hill to his north. On the nearby hill, he noticed some kind of dim light or reflection. As he continued to drive, a standing "circle of red lights" on edge shot across the Stovall Road only fifty feet in front of him towards the illuminated "target" on the hill. After the 8 to 10 feet wide revolving circle of red lights hit the "target," the bright "star" shot away out of sight. The producer was entirely unnerved by the incident and initially thought someone had shot tracers at him, but could not explain the cause and effect relationship he had witnessed. He had not heard any gunshots. Strongly illuminated beams were seen in South Troup County in August of 1995, on the Willie Hodnet Road. A married couple saw a square box over a pasture casting a white beam straight down. The beam they saw retracted and expanded but, like the latest incident, did not widen at any point. A third person saw this same UFO from a different vantage point. On January 8, 1998, just north of LaGrange on Highway 219, another married couple saw an intense beam start in mid-air and go down to the ground a hundred feet below. This wide beam was so intense they said that it could not be seen through. At no time during all of these beam sightings was any sound heard or aircraft/search lights found to be responsible. The normal cast of characters was contacted to find, perhaps, a mundane explanation for the Old Chipley Road sighting. Calls to Callaway Gardens and its nearby airport showed that there were no lights of any kind displayed. Mr. Brad Castleberry, a civilian public affairs officer at Ft. Benning, said none of their fixed or rotary wing aircraft were in the Troup-Harris County area or had the capability to display a green beam. An earlier call to another source at Ft. Benning revealed that any craft based there capable of casting light only have a "night-sun" light capability. A "night-sun" light mounted on an aircraft illuminates an area beneath it much like daylight, but does not project a narrow beam. Calls to Troup County 911 and the Pine Mountain police brought forth no other reports. The ocean-green beam remains unexplained. The shooting star may have only been a coincidence. Weather on the night of the sighting was scattered cloud cover with light wind and a temperature of around 70 degrees F. Ceiling was unlimited, visibility excellent and a near full moon out. The witnesses, despite their relative young age, are judged reliable. Thanks to John C. Thompson Copyright, 2000. All rights reserved. gingerjohn@peoplepc.com MICHIGAN THREE BLACK SPHERE'S CAUGHT ON CAMERA SAULT SAINT MARIE -- I had gone out in front of my house with a digital camera on June 15, 2000, to take a series of photographs, and to try out a new panoramic photo construction program for my computer. I took a total of eleven photo's of three black sphere's, in a 360 degree circle from the ground to the sky using a tripod, at about 5:30 PM-EST. I then went back in the house, copied the jpg. photo's from the disk in the camera onto my hard drive, and constructed the panorama. As I was scrolling around in a circle, I could see a small black dot in the sky to the west. The program allows you to zoom in, so when I did this, the dot appears to be a black sphere. I zoomed out and scrolled to the north, and there were two more black spheres'. In the photo, they almost appear to be in a large triangle formation. I would estimate the size of them in the photo to be about the size of a pencil eraser held at arm's length. I have the photo at 768x1024 pixels. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com. ILLINOIS BLACK TRIANGULAR CRAFT GREENFIELD -- On June 14, 2000, the witness reports, "I walked outside and looked west at a 2 o'clock position in the sky. I noticed nine brightly flashing lights in a V shape and moving in perfect formation and in unison at 9:30 PM. I immediately called a friend to look and we were on the phone as we both watched the black triangular craft. The lights were not quite as big as Venus appears, but they were blinking randomly. The open part of the V was at least 5 to 6 full moons across. Commercial aircraft would not have been in such a formation, and military aircraft at that distance would have been heard. There was no sound as they moved east to west across the sky at about the same speed as commercial jet aircraft. If these were multiple aircraft the formation was perfect. I watched them until they passed behind some trees. My friends who were still on the phone with me reported it moved west for at least another five minutes. They reported seeing an obviously recognizable airplane in the vicinity of the black triangle. CAHOKIA MOUNDS -- We were driving past the mounds on an old road near Route 111 on June 16, 2000, when we saw a strange light but just figured it to be an airplane. At 9:45 PM, as we got closer we could tell it was no airplane. It had four lights with blue and green colors. The craft was black in color but almost gray. It was only a 1,000 feet above the ground. It was a perfect triangular shape, with no curves at all. It was obvious that it was no airplane. It flew very slowly without sound and the lights from the craft were just so bright it lit up the area around the craft. The weather was a light rain, but we had clear sight of it. ST. LOUIS -- A couple hours later at 11:30 PM, a caller to the National Reporting Center stated, "My mom and a friend were returning home, crossing the McKinley Bridge over the Mississippi River into Illinois. As they began to cross the bridge, they saw a large object hovering in the sky. The object was above the bridge near the CAHOKIA MOUNDS. They stopped and watched it for a minute or so. They said it was perfectly still, at a height where a very low flying plane would be. Both witnesses claimed it was difficult to make out an exact shape - but drew me a picture and verbally described it. They saw two large glowing circular white lights on the side, that were attached to a long cigar shaped fuselage. They had difficulty describing what attached the lights to the body. I asked what made them think it was not a helicopter? They said, "It was WAY too large for a helicopter and remained perfectly still without any sound." They decided to keep moving and the passenger was looking out the rear window at the object. She lost track of the object briefly but saw it just in time to watch it streak across the sky at incredible speed. She said, "It then stopped instantly over the Mississippi at a point south of their current position." They continued home. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director NUFORC www.ufocenter.com. TEXAS FUTURISTIC PLANES DALLAS -- Jonathan Miller writes, "I'm 17 years old and on June 23, 2000, for the first time I actually saw real life proof of something going on." I went outside at about 10:27 PM, to play basketball and was waiting my friends sitting on a swing. I am looking up at the sky, which had no stars and saw two bluish almost futuristic type planes soar by faster than any planes can go. They flew by quickly but I was able to see them in the dark. What I saw gave me chills. They passed by in not even in a second. They left blue lines in the dark sky that was visible for a couple of seconds. They appeared to be breaking the sound barrier over our neighborhood and I expected a boom. But they were totally silent. The lines disappeared and I yelled to my friend to come out fast. Thanks to Jonathan Miller gizmo0081@yahoo.com and Larry Clark Lclark@ibm.net. OREGON UFOs FILMED HOOD RIVER -- James A. Gilliland reports that on June 24, 2000, there was a wonderful display of UFO activity. One very large craft flew directly over the Bridgehouse. It morphed from one light disk into three and four then returned to one again. Yes, it is on film. We have footage of ships rising on both sides of Mt Adams now. One in particular was immense. It rose up, went behind the mountain then moved right towards us. An aviation expert was present and had no doubt he had seen a UFO. It later ascended and hovered for the rest of the evening next to a triangular star pattern. Several were filmed last night, with one crossing the sky at a very high altitude and speed. Thanks to James Gilliland Self-Mastery Earth Institute <james@cazekiel.org., www.cazekiel.org NEW MEXICO NIDS COW ANIMAL MUTILATION SURVIVES On May 20, 2000, NIDS was alerted to a two year old Charolais cow which had been mutilated near Cuba, New Mexico, three days previously but the animal had survived. The animal was recovering at a nearby veterinary clinic. On May 22, 2000, the NIDS veterinarian plus two NIDS investigators arrived to examine it. The animal's left ear had been removed completely, its right ear was substantially removed and the animal's lips appeared to have been injured or degraded. A search for needle marks was negative. Both veterinarians concurred that there was no evidence whatsoever that the animal had been attacked by predators or scavengers. Rather, they concurred that a sharp instrument had likely been used to remove the ears. Multiple blood samples, a small tissue biopsy and fecal samples were taken and analyzed. See "http://www.nidsci.org" UK STRANGE DAZE MAGAZINE Strange Daze is an English publication that contains serious articles and papers by leading authors and researchers in the fields of Ufology, the paranormal and cutting edge science. There are no hard and fast rules governing submissions to the magazine, apart from an insistence on quality, integrity, and a realistic approach to the subject. So far, Strange Daze has been primarily aimed at a semi-academic readership and the magazine's detailed technical features often reflect this. The quality of writing is high and for this reason, much of the material showcased in Strange Daze has eventually finds its way into the wider world of publishing. Editor Gloria H. Dixon and the editorial team have a bold vision for the magazine's future, focusing on the profound issues of consciousness and our hopes, fears and expectations in this brave new world. The current edition (Issue 20) of Strange Daze contains a major feature by aviation writer Bill Rose on secret "Cold War" space projects, including the Pentagon's plans to build a military fortress on the Moon. In his lengthy article "The Scare in the Air," journalist DR David Clarke traces UFO sightings back to the beginning of the last century and takes a close look at Zeppelin activity during World War One. Kate Taylor, who is now regarded as an important authority on modern American political history, examines the possibility that Ted Kennedy was framed at Chappaquiddick. Ufologist Michael Lewis looks back at Millennium madness, while Dave Newton, Fellow of the Royal Astronomical Society discusses the latest astronomy and space exploration developments. Last is Gloria Dixon's fascinating account of paranormal events at one of Britain's most mysterious locations, Windwhistle Hill. Strange Daze costs �10 for four issues per year in the UK and �15 for other subscribers. Website at: www.strangedaze.ic.24.net. HEATHERD77@aol.com Editor's Note: Bill Rose's article revealed the US planned to build a military fortress on the Moon were stopped apparently due to the high cost, but I wonder if there were other reasons? Dr. David Clarke's Clark's article concerning Zeppelin Dirigible activity during World War I was particularly interesting to me since I flew over England for four years. During World War I hardly a night would go by without numerous reports of German Zeppelin activity over England, but the Germans only had one Naval Zeppelin and five Army airships in service when war was declared. Within a few months most had been destroyed or wrecked. German records reveal Zeppelin activity was very limited any where near England, yet sightings of airships was frequent and may have been UFOs. Captain Stansfield of the trawler SS Ape and many of his crew on December 15, 1914, reported sighting a black airship. After the war airship records were read and all German airships were in their hangars due to bad weather. On September 6, 1914, Flight Commander C.E.H. Rathborne of the Felixstowe Naval Air Station, Suffolk returned from an early morning patrol in his RNAS seaplane to make perhaps the first report of a UFO by a military officer. "At 5:35 AM. whilst on patrol. I sighted an airship steering south-southeast, with a silver colored envelope on the horizon while flying at 1,300 feet, 27 miles south of Orfordness." A military intelligence report estimated the total number of reports of "enemy signaling" to be as high as 2,000 from the Scottish Command alone during the first year of the war. By January 31, 1916, nine Naval Zeppelins had been built and were ordered to bomb central England. The Zeppelin scares and rumors generated thousands of reports of phantom airships that based on their records seldom ever flew near England. It appears many of the reports may have been UFOs since records reveal no known aircraft or airships were flying. Were these British eyewitnesses lying, mistaken, or had they really seen UFOs in their skies? CANADA FIRST CROP CIRCLES OF 2000 SASKATCHEWAN -- The first crop circles for 2000 were reported to CPR-Canada on June 19, 2000, near Willmar, south of Regina. Field assistant Beatta van Berkom and local reporter Dawn-Marie Barker report five rings were found in pasture grass, each averaging about 26 feet in diameter, and two feet wide. At least three of the rings have a cut in the ring, making them more like a horseshoe. RUSSIAN CROP CIRCLES MYSTIFY FARMERS YUZHNOYE -- The overnight appearance of crop circles in a field in Southern Russia June 24, 2000, has puzzled farmers who claim aliens landed there. Russian Public TV reported that a farmer from the village of Yuzhnoye, Stavropol Territory called in local officials "to record an act of vandalism" after finding that his field of ripe barley had been ruined. Closer examination revealed four distinct circles -- one 20 meters in diameter in the center and three outer ones 6 meters in diameter each. The barley had been smoothed down "as if by hand" in a clockwise direction. Representatives of the Stavropol Security Council found no traces of radiation or chemicals, and human intervention was ruled out. Eyewitnesses in a neighboring village said they had seen a UFO landing in the field. Vasily Belchenko, Security Council Deputy Secretary, was inclined to believe them. "Aliens" took crop samples from the field. "There is no doubt that it was not man-made," he said. A 20-cm-deep cylindrical hole with polished walls was found right in the center of the large circle suggesting the aliens were taking soil samples. Thanks to the BBC monitoring at Caversham and Steven L. Wilson, Ndunlks@aol.com PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY AND UFOs Robert Collins writes...Besides all the other possible scenarios as to why JFK might of been assassinated UFOs have come up as perhaps another reason: Did JFK really intend to make an announcement on Roswell and an assassin's bullet got in the way? Was JFK's willingness to be open about many things including UFOs within the government earn him the permanent wrath of people like Dulles, Colby and Hoover? Please see: http://home.earthlink.net/~rcollins633/reports/kennedy_assassins_.htm BEFORE YOU BUY OR SELL A HOME SEE MY FREE REPORT -- All real estate agents are not the same? Some real estate agents or sales representatives are part timers and inexperienced. Others are experts with an excellent experience and capabilities. When you are selling or buying your home, you need to make sure you have the best real estate agent working for you before you make any important financial decisions on one your biggest investments! Remember, the majority of people do not know the right questions to ask, and what pit falls can cause major problems. Picking the right real estate agent can be a wonderful experience, and picking the wrong one can be a big mistake that can waste your time and cost you thousands! Find out, "What you need to understand before hiring any real estate agent!" These are the questions that many agents do not want you to ask. Learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent for your needs. To get a free copy of this report, just call (609) 654-0020 or e-mail us at Majorstar@aol.com. PHOTOGRAPH BOOKLET of some of the best UFO shots available and data on their propulsion systems by US Navy Commander Graham Bethune. Send $10.00 check or money order to G. Filer 222 Jackson Road, Medford, New Jersey 08055 MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative reports subscribe to the Journal by contacting MUFONHQ@AOL.COM. Mention I recommended you for membership. Filer's Files is Copyrighted 2000 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the Files on their Web Sites provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue that the item appeared. Send your letters to Majorstar@aol.com. 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 18:27:36 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 18:45:53 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Balaskas >Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 18:32:13 -0700 (PDT) >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> >Subject: MJ-12 and the Mantell crash >To: UfoUpdates <updates@sympatico.ca> >List, >The "new" MJ-12 documents report that the remains of Mantell's >plane had unusual damage, such as being pitted as if it had been >blasted by a shotgun. The report in question wonders if perhaps >Mantell's plane had flown into an ionized field surrounding the >UFO and that Mantell's body was taken for autopsy. >Disregarding for the moment the issue of authenticity, what is >_known_ about the Mantell crash? Were photos taken at the crash >site? Any details from the AF? Press conferences? <snip> Hi Mac. You may recall that Wilbert B. Smith, Government of Canada investigator of UFOs, identified Dr. Vannevar Bush (of MJ-12 fame) in a declassified Top Secret memo as head of the highly classified U.S. study of UFOs. Wilbert shared much secret UFO information with his high level U.S. counterparts, including flying saucer hardware and even alleged communications with alien commanders of certain orbiting E.T. spacecraft, the details of which can still be found at the University of Otttawa archives where many of Wilbert's papers and other UFO documents are kept. What Wilbert was able to say in publicly about Captain Mantell's tragic encounter with a flying saucer can be found in some of his speeches, including the one he gave in Ottawa on March 31, 1958. Below I quote a few paragraphs. "Let us look at a few more facts. First, there have been several close brushes with these objects, and in one case at least, the aircraft pilot lost his life as a consequence. Captain Mantell was reported killed as a result of chasing a flying saucer on January 7, 1947. The incident is described in details in the Report on Unidentified Flying Objects by Edward J. Ruppelt, pages 51 to 60 (American edition)." "Secondly, people who have been near these objects have described physical sensations which are unusual to say the least, but which are quite consistent with what is known of the technology under which they operate. As nearly as we are able to re-create the accident, Mantell was pursuing a UFO and was able to get quite near - in fact, well into its operating field. His aircraft just fell apart and was scattered over quite an area. Mantell's body, when recovered, was not displayed even to his next of kin. Serveralpeople who have found themselves close to these objects have remarked on the insufferable heat which seemed to prevade the general region. Also there seemed to be a gravitational necessity to lean away from the object to maintain balance. While these facts seem rather incredible, nevertheless there exists quite a good record in support of each occurrence. Furthermore, the technology of which we have been able to get a glimpse - namely, that of manipulation of the three basic fields, electric, magnetic and tempic - indicates quite a straight forward answer and explanation of the phenomena." "In Mantell's case, the altered field configuration in the vicinity of the craft reduced the binding forces within the structure of the aircraft to a value below that of the load which the parts were supposed to carry. So it just came apart. Also, there was probably a substantial reduction in the tempic field intensity which would give in effect a rising temperature to the aircraft and contents. I understand that Mantell's body gave every indication of having been subjected to considerable heat. This rise in temperature has been reported as being quite noticeable at distances of several hundred feet of thes craft when they are masking use of certain combinations of field. Also, since gravity involves a tempic field function, it follows that an alteration in this field could well be reflected in the direction and magnitude of the nearby gravity field." Does the above information given by Wilbert support the story that Captain Mantell had a close encounter with a Skyhook balloon? I do not think so, anymore than another balloon story can explain the Roswell UFO crash half a year later. In a later public speech given in Vancouver on March 14, 1961, Wilbert makes mention of two other aircraft that crashed because of reduced binding, similar to Captain Mantell's plane. One of these involved a CF-100 which fell from 30,000 feet and crashed into an Ottawa area convent killing the two pilots, a priest and a nun on May 5, 1956 and the other involved a BOAC aircraft a few tens of kilometers southwest of Quebec City. Both of these unexplained crashes were investigated by Wilbert and found to have happened in areas of reduced binding. This was determined with a specially built instrument designed with the help from the "boys topside" who had brought this potential hazard to the attention of U.S. and Canadian government/military investigators of UFOs. If some or all the MJ-12 documents are fake, there is a large amount of official and equally as incredible real UFO documents that have been known prior to the release of the first MJ-12 documents. We should give some thanks to Wilbert for making these documents or their contents public. Both of Wilbert's speeches I made references to can be found at http://www3.sympatico.ca/updates/archive/wbsmith.htm Nick Balaskas
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 3 UpDate: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Brookesmith From: Peter Duke of Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 19:15:15 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 19:48:51 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Brookesmith The Duke of Medoza presents his compliments to the List. >Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 01:12:44 -0500 >From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> >Subject: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? >To: updates@sympatico.ca A propos the notion that Simonton's "pancake episode" was the result of hypnotic suggestion, Tim's informant vaguely realls >I believe it was in one of Peter Brookesmith's books that he came across this version of the event. He believes wrongly. Indeed this is the first time I've heard this particular tale myself - and I didn't come across it when researching the story for either "UFO: The Complete [sic] Sightings Catalogue" or "UFO: The Government Files". I have no particular opinion on what "really" happened to Simonton beyond a reasonable doubt that ET aliens were involved. In this instance the entities were apparently somewhat Mediterranean in appearance. Not unlike yours truly, as chance would have it - at least according to some of those who do not actually cry "Rapsutin!", or in select examples "Asshole!", and run off gibbering when I heave into view. (With Jenny Randles I sympathize.) Make of that what you will. Anyway, the two of my books that mention Simonton report no more than others' view of the case, and post-hypnotic suggestion wasn't among them. best wishes Piaffe D. Mustardseed Sharp Horse
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 4 UpDate: Re: For The Record - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 18:46:50 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:48:37 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: For The Record - Evans >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca> >Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 13:23:35 -0700 >Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 13:37:46 -0400 >Subject: UpDate: Re: For The Record - Salvaille Previously, Serge offered this good info: >Any production of any individual is protected by Copyright. One >does not have to register his work at the Copyright Office to >own a Copyright. >http://www.loc.gov/copyright/faq.html#q2 >" >1. What does copyright protect? >Copyright, a form of intellectual property law, protects >original works of authorship including literary, dramatic, >musical, and artistic works such as poetry, novels, movies, >songs, computer software and architecture. Copyright does not >protect facts, ideas, systems, or methods of operation, although >it may protect the way these things are expressed. >2. When is my work protected? >Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created >and fixed in a tangible form so that it is perceptible either >directly or with the aid of a machine or device. " Hi, Serge! One thing I'd like to add to the mix: While it is true you don't have to follow through and file a copyright with the Library of Congress, not putting a copyright notice on your work can result in it becoming public domain if it appears in the public without such notice. Simply put, if someone sees your work in public, and it does not bear a copyright, and they check with the Library of Congress and find that a copyright, indeed, does not exist, then it can legally be used without permission as it can be viewed as public domain. On the other hand, even if you do not file a copyright, merely placing a copyright on your work offers a limited degree of protection under the copyright law as it affixes a date of creation. Also, it shows intent if someone steals your work with the copyright in full view. Again, this is true even if you do not actually file a copyright but simply put the copyright info on your work. Filing a copyright is merely a form of registering an official date of creation for your work. This is useful, but not required, if you want to challenge someone in court over who came up with the idea first. Many people I know, including myself, will routinely use a Public Notary in conjunction with a visible copyright as a simple means of protection even though no copyright was ever filed. Generally speaking, if someone sees "copyright such and such" on a piece of work, they will generally leave it alone. However, as I posted in another thread, there are no "copyright police" to protect your interests. So, not legally pursuing someone that has infringed on your copyright, whether it has been registered or not, is viewed by the courts as "complacency" or an implied permission to use your copyrighted work. Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 4 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Easton From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:45:43 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:53:05 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Easton Regarding: >Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 18:27:36 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Nick wrote: >You may recall that Wilbert B. Smith, Government of Canada >investigator of UFOs, identified Dr. Vannevar Bush (of MJ-12 >fame) in a declassified Top Secret memo as head of the highly >classified U.S. study of UFOs. Nick, Dr Vannevar Bush's fame owed more to being a brilliant scientist than any scurrilous mention in some transparent UFO related hoax. Did you know one of his visions was essentially the Internet, which he conceived as a future possibility - in 1945. (Ha! Can't credit any 'Roswell seeded alien technology' for that one!) There's some related material in a previous newsletter on my web site - see "Latest 'secret government documents' hoax: what a tangled World Wide Web we weave", at: http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/newslet2.htm >Wilbert shared much secret UFO information with his high level >U.S. counterparts, including flying saucer hardware and even >alleged communications with alien commanders of certain orbiting >E.T. spacecraft, the details of which can still be found at the >University of Otttawa archives where many of Wilbert's papers >and other UFO documents are kept. >What Wilbert was able to say in publicly about Captain Mantell's >tragic encounter with a flying saucer can be found in some of >his speeches, including the one he gave in Ottawa on March 31, >1958. Below I quote a few paragraphs. <snip> >"As nearly as we are able to re-create the accident, Mantell was >pursuing a UFO and was able to get quite near - in fact, well >into its operating field. His aircraft just fell apart and was >scattered over quite an area". >"In Mantell's case, the altered field configuration in the >vicinity of the craft reduced the binding forces within the >structure of the aircraft to a value below that of the load >which the parts were supposed to carry. So it just came apart". <snip> >Does the above information given by Wilbert support the story >that Captain Mantell had a close encounter with a Skyhook >balloon? I do not think so, anymore than another balloon story >can explain the Roswell UFO crash half a year later. I think they're all certainly comparative - Wilbert, Roswell, MJ-12, Cors.. nah, let's not go there. Back to reality, I've uploaded (for a short time) a photo of Mantell's crashed aircraft, together with the photo of a P-51, to my web site at: http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/mantell.jpg As you can see, Mantell's aircraft was relatively intact when it hit the ground. Guess Wilbert's no more trustworthy than many others with an abundance of sensational yarns. >If some or all the MJ-12 documents are fake Nick, they are so obviously bogus a ten-year-old could see through them, as opposed to the more recent MJ-12 documents, which were apparently written by one. Anyway, I hope the photograph helps to answer your questions. James Easton. E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk www.ufoworld.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 4 UpDate: P47: Corso's FBI File - Klotz From: Jim Klotz <jimklotz@FOXINTERNET.NET> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 18:09:10 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 01:01:46 -0400 Subject: UpDate: P47: Corso's FBI File - Klotz Please pass this on to other email lists and other interested parties. The debate over the merits of Philip Corso's _The Day After Roswell_ continues. Besides Corso's assertions about his supposed handling of Roswell debris and seeding some of it to US industry being undocumented, Corso himself, his character and motives, have come into question. Corso's FBI file has some pertinent information regarding his actions previous to the publication of his book. Because Roderick Dyke has generously underwritten the necessary software, CUFON is now able to provide files in Adobe Portable Document Format (.PDF). Corso's FBI file is the first file we are presenting in this manner. You will need the free Adobe Acrobat Reader to view this file. If you don't already have it, you can download it at: http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep.html Whether your browser software will prompt you to download the file for offline viewing or will open the file for on-line viewing depends on how you have setup Acrobat Reader. In either case, you have the opportunity to save the file to your own system. Note that since the file consists completely of scanned images of the FBI file pages and is over 40 pages in length that the .PDF file is about 3 megabytes in size. To download (or open for viewing) go to: http://www.cufon.org/ and look under the "What's New" globe for the link to Philip Corso's FBI file. - Jim Klotz CUFON SYSOP email@cufon.org
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 4 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 19:47:21 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 01:10:26 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Hammond >>Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:21:55 -0400 >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 20:00:24 -0400 (EDT) >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:37:06 +0100 >>>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >>>Subject: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>>To: UFO UpDates <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>The article states, "Jacobs, with Budd Hopkins, an artist and >>>author of two books on UFO abductions, has recently received a >>>200,000 dollar private grant - Jacobs will not reveal the donor >>>- to conduct in-depth research on accounts of abduction by >>>aliens. (Results of their first poll, conducted by the Roper >>>organization and released last week, are that one in every 50 >>>adult Americans claims a UFO abduction experience)". >>>Was the amount of this grant, its specific purpose and the >>>benefactor's identity ever _publicly_ confirmed? >I wonder what the "frightened abductees" think when they find >out their files may have been sold to some sugar daddy with cash >from a researcher who needs money? >Just curious. Dear Robert: Sorry for the delay. We went to the local Indian reservation to make our fortune, not! Obviously, I can only speak for myself on this issue. I spent over 21 years mulling over the whole subject of hypnosis, as well as issues of privacy before I ever came forward as an abductee. I decided to contact Budd Hopkins. Not only on the strength of his work, but also on recommendations of other people who had been to him. We first made contact on the telephone and prior to my discussing anything with him we discussed the issue of privacy. I was given complete assurances that my name, addresses, phone, etc., would never be given out. I was also assured that no part of anything we discussed would ever be made public without my consent. After this point, one has to rely on the integrity of the other person and I felt that I had done enough of my own research on Budd to enable me to be confident that he was a man of his word. Unfortunately, I believe that many people may not be as careful about all this. I have run into several people on the Net who claim to be 'Researchers". I have seen them use some very underhanded methods of obtaining information from abductees. Up to and including pretending to be an abductee in order to gain access to private Lists that Abductees have set up on their own for mutual support. They then use the information gathered to write articles, etc. based on material they've garnered from unsuspecting people. Thereby "making a name for themselves". They then take on "Clients" based on their supposed body of research. How those poor "Clients" fare is anyone's guess. The unfortunate, and frightening thing about this new 'wrinkle' is that it appears that this culprit is a "real researcher", as opposed to all the wannabes. For myself I am first and foremost very angry that someone who purports to be an ethical person, one who truly cares about abductees and what they are dealing with, would perpetrate something this horrifying on 140 innocent people. People who no doubt waited 10, 15 even 20 years to finally get the courage up to reach out to someone for help. Who then told their most private secrets in an atmosphere of supposed safety. And, apparently, and this I really have a problem with, obtained copies of their private medical records and turned them over to him! I am disgusted to the point of nausea that anything of this nature actually happened. Here is a person who no doubt courted everyone of these abductee's like a lover, gaining their trust to the point that nothing was too intimate to share with him. Many women abductees have serious gynecological problems and the thought of those very private records being pawed over by some rich wack job who seems to have some sort of weird fetish about abduction, it's just sickening! This incident also filled me with fear Robert. My opinion of Budd has not changed, nor will it unless and until someone shows me proof that he accepted money and turned over records. It's just that the whole incident serves to underscore how truly vulnerable all of us are. We seemed to have reached a point where there is just about no one left to trust. I feel worse for those abductees who were just at that point of screwing up their courage and reaching out for help. What are they supposed to make of all this? I know if I was in that position I would simply keep my own council and suffer in silence. I just wouldn't be able to risk my own or my husband's reputations. I certainly would never allow anyone access to my private medical records! And this was the case before this incident. Either you have to take me at my word regarding a medical problem or not. I would never give anyone access to them. Frankly, I can't understand why 140 people apparently did. Like I said, this person must have been courting them like a lover to get all this material. Well, does that about answer the question, Robert? Afraid, disgusted, horrified, nauseated... fill in the blanks if I left anything out, ok? Yours, Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 4 UpDate: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars - Fleming From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 21:03:29 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 01:13:29 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars - Fleming Several weeks ago, it was claimed by a person on this list that Vince DiPietro, who has argued that two successive Viking images showed a water geyser, didn't know the difference between a dust devil and a geyser. While I didn't mention the insulting tone in which this claim was made, I did write to Vince and asked him whether he or Dr. Martin had specifically considered the possibility that the feature they had described as a possible geyser was instead a dust devil. Vince replied that he and Greg Molenaar in their 1982 book, "Unusual Martian Surface Features", had included an image of dust devils in "Arcadia" from Viking frame 34B01 on page 69 of UMSF in order to establish a difference between the dust devils and Martin"s water geyser. Of course, I don't expect to see any apology from the individual who tossed out the gratuitous and ignorant insult. Such individuals seldom apologize for anything. But I thought DiPietro's response should be stated for the record.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 4 UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 22:15:41 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 01:41:31 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Hatch >Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 19:15:15 -0400 >From: Peter Duke of Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >The Duke of Medoza presents his compliments to the List. >>Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 01:12:44 -0500 >>From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> >>Subject: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >A propos the notion that Simonton's "pancake episode" was >the result of hypnotic suggestion, Tim's informant vaguely >realls >>I believe it was in one of Peter Brookesmith's books >that he came across this version of the event. >He believes wrongly. Indeed this is the first time I've heard >this particular tale myself - and I didn't come across it when >researching the story for either "UFO: The Complete [sic] >Sightings Catalogue" or "UFO: The Government Files". >I have no particular opinion on what "really" happened to >Simonton beyond a reasonable doubt that ET aliens were involved. >In this instance the entities were apparently somewhat >Mediterranean in appearance. Not unlike yours truly, as chance >would have it - at least according to some of those who do not >actually cry "Rapsutin!", or in select examples "Asshole!", and >run off gibbering when I heave into view. (With Jenny Randles I >sympathize.) >Make of that what you will. Anyway, the two of my books that >mention Simonton report no more than others' view of the case, >and post-hypnotic suggestion wasn't among them. >best wishes >Piaffe D. Mustardseed >Sharp Horse Dear Sharp Mustard et. el. For what little its worth, I (sigh!) still list the case with a very low credibility rating. Any lower and its in the poubelle. I have it as 18 APR 1961 around 11:00 AM in or near Eagle River, WI. Some dark figures from a 4-meter saucer asked farmer Simonton for water, then cook up some poor quality pancakes. With all their supposed technology, one might imagine better pancakes. I list the APRO Bulletin for May 1961, probably out late as usual, but still just some weeks after the actual "event". The MUFON UFO Journal #276 ( not at hand ) refers back to the same case. Eagle River, Wisconsin is about 89:16W - 45:55N on the map, in the southern notch of Vilas County, not too far from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. This is an area so full of lakes they stopped counting them. Clouds of large mosquitos must make it nearly intolerable for the unprepared. Its probably good farm land when it isn't snowed over. Best - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 4 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Cuthbertson From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:28:06 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 01:43:13 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Cuthbertson >Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:45:43 +0100 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Back to reality, I've uploaded (for a short time) a photo of >Mantell's crashed aircraft, together with the photo of a P-51, >to my web site at: >http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/mantell.jpg >As you can see, Mantell's aircraft was relatively intact when >it hit the ground. Relatively intact? You certainly must know your aircraft. I can't tell a blessed thing from that image. My 2 cents. -Brian C.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 4 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Jim Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 01:48:03 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 01:54:49 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Jim Mortellaro >Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 19:47:21 -0400 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:21:55 -0400 >>>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 20:00:24 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>>Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:37:06 +0100 >>>>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >>>>Subject: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>>>To: UFO UpDates <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>The article states, "Jacobs, with Budd Hopkins, an artist and >>>>author of two books on UFO abductions, has recently received a >>>>200,000 dollar private grant - Jacobs will not reveal the donor >>>>- to conduct in-depth research on accounts of abduction by >>>>aliens. (Results of their first poll, conducted by the Roper >>>>organization and released last week, are that one in every 50 >>>>adult Americans claims a UFO abduction experience)". >>>>Was the amount of this grant, its specific purpose and the >>>>benefactor's identity ever _publicly_ confirmed? >>I wonder what the "frightened abductees" think when they find >>out their files may have been sold to some sugar daddy with cash >>from a researcher who needs money? >>Just curious. >Dear Robert: >Sorry for the delay. We went to the local Indian reservation to >make our fortune, not! Obviously, I can only speak for myself on >this issue. I spent over 21 years mulling over the whole subject >of hypnosis, as well as issues of privacy before I ever came >forward as an abductee. I decided to contact Budd Hopkins. Not >only on the strength of his work, but also on recommendations of >other people who had been to him. We first made contact on the >telephone and prior to my discussing anything with him we >discussed the issue of privacy. Dear Elizabeth, Listers and EBK, And I, 50 years, before going public and seeking some help and advice. The problem with this kind of report, is that people may not follow through with going public, or even going to a researcher, based purely on this issue of privacy. Unlike you and unlike me, people may be completely turned off about seeking the help of a researcher by virtue of this potential problem. It's OK to get the researcher's word about the issue of privacy, but how trustworthy is that word, when such unproven caveats are issued? Get it in writing! It's the only way to go. People who know Budd would never even consider the possibility that such wrongdoing would take place. But what about those who do not know him or his reputation? On UpDates I read that it is unlikely that the general population of people who are perceived experiencers would not likely learn of the threat here. Yet, the widest possible distribution was requested in the original post. And believe me, these sorts of things get around pretty darn quick. Has good been done? I am not sure. Most certainly if true, folks are warned of the dangers and should take appropriate action. It would, however be much better to know who the culprits are, if true. If not true, UFO and Abduction Research has taken a bad hit in the credibility department. As have innocent researchers with heretofore good reputations. >I was given complete assurances that my name, addresses, phone, >etc., would never be given out. I was also assured that no part >of anything we discussed would ever be made public without my >consent. After this point, one has to rely on the integrity of >the other person and I felt that I had done enough of my own >research on Budd to enable me to be confident that he was a man >of his word. If you know Budd, then I must assume that you can rest assured of his complete honesty and integrity. But a _bad_ seed has been planted. That's unfortunate in the sense that everyone, not just the guilty party(s) are indicted and found guilty in one swell foop, at least in the minds of many. >Unfortunately, I believe that many people may not be as careful >about all this. I have run into several people on the Net who >claim to be 'Researchers". I have seen them use some very >underhanded methods of obtaining information from abductees. Up >to and including pretending to be an abductee in order to gain >access to private Lists that Abductees have set up on their own >for mutual support. They then use the information gathered to >write articles, etc. based on material they've garnered from >unsuspecting people. Thereby "making a name for themselves". >They then take on "Clients" based on their supposed body of >research. How those poor "Clients" fare is anyone's guess. >The unfortunate, and frightening thing about this new 'wrinkle' >is that it appears that this culprit is a "real researcher", as >opposed to all the wannabes. For myself I am first and foremost >very angry that someone who purports to be an ethical person, >one who truly cares about abductees and what they are dealing >with, would perpetrate something this horrifying on 140 innocent >people. People who no doubt waited 10, 15 even 20 years to >finally get the courage up to reach out to someone for help. Who >then told their most private secrets in an atmosphere of >supposed safety. And, apparently, and this I really have a >problem with, obtained copies of their private medical records >and turned them over to him! I am disgusted to the point of >nausea that anything of this nature actually happened. Here is a >person who no doubt courted everyone of these abductee's like a >lover, gaining their trust to the point that nothing was too >intimate to share with him. Many women abductees have serious >gynecological problems and the thought of those very private >records being pawed over by some rich wack job who seems to have >some sort of weird fetish about abduction, it's just sickening! >This incident also filled me with fear Robert. My opinion of >Budd has not changed, nor will it unless and until someone shows >me proof that he accepted money and turned over records. It's >just that the whole incident serves to underscore how truly >vulnerable all of us are. We seemed to have reached a point >where there is just about no one left to trust. I feel worse for >those abductees who were just at that point of screwing up their >courage and reaching out for help. What are they supposed to >make of all this? I know if I was in that position I would >simply keep my own council and suffer in silence. I just >wouldn't be able to risk my own or my husband's reputations. I >certainly would never allow anyone access to my private medical >records! And this was the case before this incident. Either you >have to take me at my word regarding a medical problem or not. I >would never give anyone access to them. Frankly, I can't >understand why 140 people apparently did. Like I said, this >person must have been courting them like a lover to get all this >material. >Well, does that about answer the question, Robert? Afraid, >disgusted, horrified, nauseated... fill in the blanks if I left >anything out, ok? You left one thing out. A pall has been cast over the researcher community which it did not need or deserve. Not unless everyone is guilty. And in my opinion, everyone is now suspect. A good thing or not so good? Who wins? Who loses? Everyone. I am a little ashamed to admit that I am often among the first to be critical of the research community. But I also fancy myself to be a searcher after the truth. In this instance, the truth is unclear, at least to me. Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 5 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - McCoy From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 07:48:34 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 22:19:55 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - McCoy Hello, all, Brian. >Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:28:06 -0500 (CDT) >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:45:43 +0100 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> ><snip> >>Back to reality, I've uploaded (for a short time) a photo of >>Mantell's crashed aircraft, together with the photo of a P-51, >>to my web site at: >>http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/mantell.jpg >>As you can see, Mantell's aircraft was relatively intact when >>it hit the ground. >Relatively intact? >You certainly must know your aircraft. >I can't tell a blessed thing from that image. >My 2 cents. > >-Brian C. First of all: the P-51D in the picture (the intact one on the right) is a very early model, likely taken in late 1944. The lack if a dorsal spine running back to the vertical stabilizer is a dead giveaway . The spine was added to increase the stability lost when the P-51 went to the bubble canopy. It is unlikely that Mantell's aircraft was an early P-51D, as most were used up in the war and only a handful survived -including ones that were used in the (short lived) revivied Thompson Trophy Races after the war. I would hardly call what appears to be the forward fuselage, engine, and one wing of a P-51D intact, however what appears to be a Propeller blade -if that's what it is - is intact. This means one thing: The Packard (Rolls) Merlin engine was't running when it hit the ground. Or even windmilling, the prop tips on the Hamiliton Standard for what ever reason -by appearing to be stopped or frozen-they would have been curled in some fashon if the prop was turning. One thing- it would have been easy for the military to deny Mantell's familiy a look at the body as he was, well , to put it bluntly -ground hamburger - I've been around a lot of airplane wrecks (mostly friends) and from the way Mantell "Augered in" the first thing to hit the ground was the canopy. Another thing :What happened to the Fuel? normally when somthing hits the ground that hard it usually explodes. Incidentally ,I am familiar with the Mantell story, I'm being Retorical here. How intact were the O2 bottles? if damaged they couldn't provide answers to the theroy that Mantell was chasing a balloon and ran out of O2 hence was rendered unconcous, Also, if Mantell was chasing a Balloon why was it that he could't catch it? yes I realise it may have been at high altitude, but the P-51D could out climb most of the early jets, at least initally, and with out knowing what the winds aloft were , even the Jestream isn't as fast moving as a P-51D. Again, Retorical questioing. My Two bits - GT McCoy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 5 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 04:28:27 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 22:13:56 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Velez >Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 01:48:03 -0400 (EDT) >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 19:47:21 -0400 >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:21:55 -0400 >>>>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>>>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 20:00:24 -0400 (EDT) >>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >>>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>>>Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:37:06 +0100 >>>>>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >>>>>Subject: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>>>>To: UFO UpDates <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>>The article states, "Jacobs, with Budd Hopkins, an artist and >>>>>author of two books on UFO abductions, has recently received a >>>>>200,000 dollar private grant - Jacobs will not reveal the donor >>>>>- to conduct in-depth research on accounts of abduction by >>>>>aliens. (Results of their first poll, conducted by the Roper >>>>>organization and released last week, are that one in every 50 >>>>>adult Americans claims a UFO abduction experience)". >>>>>Was the amount of this grant, its specific purpose and the >>>>>benefactor's identity ever _publicly_ confirmed? >>>I wonder what the "frightened abductees" think when they find >>>out their files may have been sold to some sugar daddy with cash >>>from a researcher who needs money? >>>Just curious. Hello Liz, hello All, You wrote: >>Dear Robert: >>Sorry for the delay. We went to the local Indian reservation to >>make our fortune, not! Obviously, I can only speak for myself on >>this issue. I spent over 21 years mulling over the whole subject >>of hypnosis, as well as issues of privacy before I ever came >>forward as an abductee. I decided to contact Budd Hopkins. Not >>only on the strength of his work, but also on recommendations of >>other people who had been to him. We first made contact on the >>telephone and prior to my discussing anything with him we >>discussed the issue of privacy. Which is as it should be. If nothing else comes out of this, at least people will be aware that there is a real possibility of having their privacy and personal information transferred to a third party without their prior consent. I'm sorry if that strikes fear into some but, -better safe than sorry!- It's already too late for 140 people. Would you rather _not know?_ No, I didn't think so. :) Better 'wary but wise' than 'ignorant and screwed!' Replace your fear or trepidation with caution and wariness. (Wariness - not paranoia! One is healthy, the other isn't.) Mortellaro writes: >Dear Elizabeth, Listers and EBK, >And I, 50 years, before going public and seeking some help and >advice. The problem with this kind of report, is that people may >not follow through with going public, or even going to a >researcher, based purely on this issue of privacy. Unlike you >and unlike me, people may be completely turned off about seeking >the help of a researcher by virtue of this potential problem. I'll ask you the same thing I just asked Liz, "Would you rather _not know?_" Would you rather that others didn't know? C'mon man, give it a break! Who cares who gets "turned off" if it prevents people from rushing headlong into a situation where they can get 'hurt' for real! Above all, people need to be made aware of any traps and pitfalls. By putting them 'wise' the playing gets levelled. Unscupulous "researchers" will have a harder time taking advantage of an educated consumer! The practice of selling files for money will get stopped in its tracks if everyone approaching a researcher demands certain assurances in writing beforehand. The 'abductee' is protected, and any honest and ethical researcher would not/ should not, have any problem at all providing such assurances. I don't get how anyone could be hurt or put off by being told to slow down and watch what they're doing because the road ends suddenly at a mile high cliff. I don't know Jim. What am I supposed to do? Keep my mouth shut and watch the cars go sailing off the cliff one by one? This isn't a 'movie!' Real people, really got screwed here. A -hundred-and-forty of em! >On UpDates I read that it is unlikely that the general >population of people who are perceived experiencers would not >likely learn of the threat here. Yet, the widest possible >distribution was requested in the original post. And believe me, >these sorts of things get around pretty darn quick. In this particular situation we can only hope eh! I know from personal experience that telling _you_ anything is just like going to the media! <LOL> >Has good been done? I am not sure. Tell me how much good it would do to continue to allow people to get 'used' by someone unethical or unscrupulous. >Most certainly if true, folks >are warned of the dangers and should take appropriate action. It >would, however be much better to know who the culprits are, if >true. You haven't been reading the UpDates posts have you? >If not true, UFO and Abduction Research has taken a bad hit in >the credibility department. Ahhh, so you do get it! <LOL> >As have innocent researchers with heretofore good reputations. Buffalo chips! Honest researchers will have _no problem at all_ providing prospective clients with written assurances that their information, privacy, and anonymity will be protected. BTW, you don't hurt 'innocent people' by making other folks aware that there are some 'bad' folks with 'bad' intentions out there. You are not _hurting anyone_ when you do that, you are doing them a _service._ You keep sounding like you want to reduce this down to another example of 'ufologists bashing each other.' If so, it's a mis-diagnosis doc! _People need to know!_ Period. >You left one thing out. A pall has been cast over the researcher >community which it did not need or deserve. Wake up and smell the coffee man. If there are sharks in the water what do you do? That's right! You put up big signs that say, "Beware - SHARKS!" on both ends of the beach and you shout like hell if you see someone go near the water. You aren't "casting a pall" on the other fish, you are issuing a "Shark Alert" for the safety and protection of your fellow swimmers. No difference here dude. >Not unless everyone is guilty. Why does it have to be an "All or nothing" situation? -"Think Different!"- (Steve Jobs, CEO, Apple) :) >And in my opinion, everyone is now suspect. Now you're really gettin it! ;) >A good thing or not so good? I don't know there Jimbo, is it a "good thing" in your set of criteria if no one else gets used or hurt by something like this? >Who wins? Every abductee that does not get screwed by an unscrupulous person! >Who loses? The 'users'- the low life's that worship the almighty dollar above all else in life. The ones who think nothing of trading anothers privacy away for a few dollars. If you still "don't get it" I suggest cutting back on your "Gripple" consumption for a couple of weeks. Your head and your heart are not in the right place on this one. >I am a little ashamed to admit that I am often among the first to >be critical of the research community. But I also fancy myself >to be a searcher after the truth. In this instance, the truth is >unclear, at least to me. Re-read this post a couple of times. It'll become clear to you on one read or another. <G>You also should get used to the idea that if we, (those who profess to be a part of ufology) don't assume an active role in "Self Policing" no one else is going to do it. Like Roger said, "There is no Data Police in ufology." There are good and bad people everywhere. It's a very healthy sign when an group is able to identify and then purge itself of its 'bad apples' while maintaining group unity, and unity of purpose. What you or someone else may perceive as 'in-house fighting' or 'researcher bashing' is often simply the process of self policing and self correction in progress. Like the hitmen say as they dispassionately whack a Rat, "Sorry, but it's only business!" ;) That is the case here. There is _nothing personal_ in any of this. It's about protecting people Mr Mortellaro, not hurting them. You can twist that one around anyway you like. John Velez, (I'd rather -know- than not know!)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 5 UpDate: Re: Mysterious New Object? - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 23:36:57 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 22:10:52 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Mysterious New Object? - Hatch >Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 13:09:34 -0400 >From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> >Subject: Mysterious New Object? >To: updates@sympatico.ca >A little dated but still interesting. Can anyone provide any >more recent info? >Diane >Source: The Millenium Group >http://www.millenngroup.com/IMAGES/Mystery_Obj4.jpg >Mysterious New Object >By John Maynard and Jamie Stensrud April 24, 2000 <snip> Hello again! I spoke too soon. There is indeed an ongoing thread about the XTE J1118+480 object on a Japanese Astronomical email list. Here is their latest: http://www.kusastro.kyoto-u.ac.jp/vsnet/Mail/vsnet-campaign/msg00221.html You can navigate back to earlier messages. Numerous other objects/observations are discussed, but you can cherry-pick from a list here: http://www.kusastro.kyoto-u.ac.jp/vsnet/Mail/vsnet-campaign/maillist.html by looking for J...+480 links. No big news in all of this. I gather the object went into a fading trend in May, which bottomed out and then got brighter going into early June. Other than that, its pretty dry reading. No indication of artificial signals or anything neat like that. Best! - Larry Hatch.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 5 UpDate: Re: Mysterious New Object? - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 23:16:42 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 22:06:15 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Mysterious New Object? - Hatch >Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 13:09:34 -0400 >From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> >Subject: Mysterious New Object? >To: updates@sympatico.ca >A little dated but still interesting. Can anyone provide any >more recent info? >Diane >Source: The Millenium Group >http://www.millenngroup.com/IMAGES/Mystery_Obj4.jpg >Mysterious New Object >By John Maynard and Jamie Stensrud April 24, 2000 >Astronomers Baffled by Mysterious New Object <snip> Dear Diane: Darn if you didn't get me curious too. I did a web browse using Lycos and Altavista for "J1118". Note: If you use the full catalog designation J1118+480, most browsers take the plus (+) sign as a boolean operator and you won't find much at all. Anyhow, results were disappointing. I found all sorts of junk from a nice new Japanese bus (with the driver's seat on the wrong side) to a book about saxophone jazz. Other sites (I sifted past a good 200 of them) which were astronomy related either predated the +480 event, simply mirrored the information you already have, or referred to completely different objects like J1118-62 or whatever. One exception was a Finnish observatory web page here: http://www.jklsirius.fi/obs/xtej1118.html which offers a little bit more info, technical mostly, and not all that layman friendly. You can click on a link at the top of that same page, http://www.kusastro.kyoto-u.ac.jp/vsnet/Mail/vsnet-alert/msg04501.html for more info, in English, from a Japanese observatory group. There is further discussion there. My take on this is that Astronomers are puzzled by a novel object that doesn't fit neatly this or that category, but which so far seems to be natural. As for "signals from space", I saw no indication of that other than periodic pulses not very unlike those of other natural, if surprising discoveries elsewhere. I'm sorry I had no more luck than others browsing. I'd bet J1118+480 is actively discussed in certain astronomical circles. These usually conservative folks might be reticent to make public statements about the object until more is learned. Given the hooplah some folks attached to it, Hale Bopp etc., I cannot exactly blame them. Best wishes - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 5 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 23:49:00 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 22:11:21 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Hatch >Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:28:06 -0500 (CDT) >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:45:43 +0100 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> ><snip> >>Back to reality, I've uploaded (for a short time) a photo of >>Mantell's crashed aircraft, together with the photo of a P-51, >>to my web site at: >>http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/mantell.jpg >>As you can see, Mantell's aircraft was relatively intact when >>it hit the ground. >Relatively intact? >You certainly must know your aircraft. >I can't tell a blessed thing from that image. >My 2 cents. >-Brian C. Dear Brian and James: The photo on the right looks intact, but the crash scene reminds me of a very used 1952 Studebaker my brother bought 35 years ago. He never crashed it, it just sort of faded away. Light blue color as I recall. Best - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 5 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 11:46:22 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 22:25:21 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Hammond >>Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 19:47:21 -0400 >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 01:48:03 -0400 (EDT) >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: updates@sympatico.ca >You left one thing out. A pall has been cast over the researcher >community which it did not need or deserve. Not unless everyone >is guilty. And in my opinion, everyone is now suspect. A good >thing or not so good? Who wins? Who loses? Everyone. >I am a little ashamed to admit that I am often among the first to >be critical of the research community. But I also fancy myself >to be a searcher after the truth. In this instance, the truth is >unclear, at least to me. > >Jim Dear Jim: Unless and until the full story, including the names of those involved comes out publicly, everyone in the Research Community is suspect. And even after, will it always be in the back of people's minds that if it happened once it can happen again? Just when it started to feel to a lot of people that things were starting to come together and we were beginning to gain some credibility that we are telling the truth (as we know it) something like this crops up. I beleive it has done irreperable harm to the whole Community, those who are "out" and those who were contemplating "coming out". This is a black time for all of us. Yours, Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 5 UpDate: Chupacabras in Tierra del Fuego - Corrales From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 11:34:17 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 22:28:07 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Chupacabras in Tierra del Fuego - Corrales Dear Friends, After a media-imposed hiatus, news of the Chupacabras's further exploits has re-entered the popular awareness. Chile has been spared this time as the strange creature sets its sights on Tierra del Fuego--the southernmost point of the Americas. Scott Corrales Institute of Hispanic Ufology www.inexplicata.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ SOURCE: "La Prensa Austral" newspaper DATE: June 9, 2000 Over a hundred dead animals and dozens wounded found during in Tierra del Fuego in recent days * No traces of the responsible parties. * Strange sheep deaths in Tierra del Fuego * Case occuring on the premises is repeating itself in various sectors of the provicnce The alarm was raised by rancher Jose Levill Rios, who said that dozens of agonizing sheep had been found 15 kilometers away from Porvenir, showing signs of having been attacked by some kind of animal. The strange thing about the case was that the search produced no traces which pointed to the passage of dogs, foxes or pumas. "Furthermore," Levill noted, "it is unlikely that one of these animals may have done such a massive attack in so little time." Knowledge of the situation came about on June 6, 2000, when the watchman of the "La Fuegina" cattle lands engaged in his customary reconnoitering of the premises in the early morning hours and came across 100 animals (60 of the dead) scattered across the vast expanse of terrain. The manager of the "La Fuegina" ranch stated that the SAG (Livestock and Agricultural Service) has not yet been advised of the event, nor have the Carabineros (State Police). He is hoping to do so once he has toured his premises and can find some traces leading to the responsible parties. Levill's losses are in excess of one million pesos, given the fact that these were breeding sheep. Likewise, he expressed his concern that his 600 remaining animals could suffer a similar fate on the premises. The case affecting this cattle rancher is not unique. It was learned yesterday that sheep attacks were reported in the San Antonio sector on the way to the Fuentes Martinez airport, where the number of dead animals is in excess of 40. ** In the year 1999 ** It was in mid-July last year when a Fuegian cattle rancher claimed that a pack of wild dogs savaged 30 of his sheep, and also requested that the authorities take urgent measures to combat said animals. Atilio Calcutta Violic pointed out in said instance that the pack of dogs killed 30 sheep: "First I found 24 of them, and another 6 turned up later in very bad shape. All of these animals were of the highest quality and of excellent genetic stock." He added that for years he had been the victim of such events and that unfortunately, he had been unable to curb them, since whenever measures for the elimination of wild dogs come about, the animals' owners or the SPCA immediately turn up to take action. SOURCE: "La Prensa Austral" (newspaper) Punta Arenas, Chile DATE: Saturday, June 10, 2000 Operations Begin After Report Of 100 Sheep Deaths In Tierra Del Fuego * Carabineros only found the remains of one sheep The necropsy (autopsy) of the animals found slain under strange conditions in Tierra del Fuego appars to be the main alternative which would enable the discovery of their cause of death. The Regional Chief of the Livestock and Agricultural Service (SAG) in Porvenir, Mr. Julio Gomez, indicated that cattle rancher Jose Levill did not make a formal complaint to the SAG regarding the alleged deaths of a hundred sheep--a claim that was made to the media. He added that he learned of the situation through third parties and that on the other hand, cattle ranchers Atilio Calcutta and Marino Mimica, who claimed having lost 22 and 4 animals respectively, did contact him. Neither one made a formal complaint to the SAG and limited themselves to stating the situation which occurred. In Julio Gomez's opinion, the suprising sheep deaths were exclusively due to the actions of wild dog packs which wander around Porvenir in large numbers and stray from the urban perimeter in search of food. He indicated that the existence of these stray dogs represents a significant problem for the commune and that affected parties must take responsiblity. While clarifying that his intention is not to doubt the statements made by Jose Levill--to the effect that some one hundred animals died on his property--the Regional Chief of SAG in Porvenir was surprised at the high number of dead sheep. In this regard, he considered puma attacks unlikely as a source of cattle losses, since these animals are not native to Tierra del Fuego. He indicated that the only predator in the Fuegian province is the grey fox, which is able to eat the entirety of its kill after an attack., but it would be unlikely that a few foxes could have attacked a hundred sheep. Translation (c) 2000. Institute of Hispanic Ufology. Special thanks to Lucy Guzman of www.ovni.net
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 5 UpDate: Witness Testimonies - Bruni From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 17:18:44 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 22:31:41 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Witness Testimonies - Bruni Dear List members Witness Testimonies There has been much debate lately over Lt Colonel Corso's story, and whether he was being honest in his controversial book "The Day After Roswell". Like Jan, I too have had problems with some of the material in that book. However, I do not believe that Corso was lying about everything. What I noticed about the book though, was that there were references to information that was already in the public domain. It's worth paying attention to Corso's former role, and while I believe he was an honourable man, people who claim to have been in his position rarely quit their roles, often their pension has a lot to do with it. It is possible that Corso consulted certain individuals before he went to the publishers, and that could have had something to do with the end result - but that is only speculation of course. The intelligence community is far cleverer than we are, and have far more resources to work with. As one very experienced private investigator told me: "The best way to fool someone is to add a small amount of false information to a lot of true information, that way the information which is real can usually easily be proven and you slip the false information through without anyone seriously questioning it. In dealing with intelligence related matters there are many shades of gray, and curiously many agendas." So yes, we should be careful. My argument was - and still is - we cannot discredit people, especially those who are not here to defend themselves, unless we have evidence to that effect. As far as I am aware there is no evidence to prove that Corso's book is to quote: "a lie from beginning to end". But it is possible that he was coerced into adding false information - who knows? The main reason for this post however, is not Corso, but witnesses in general. And the following is not an address to Jan, who I consider to be a very professional researcher. In the last 3 years I have been working on a very famous case and have come across more than my fair share of witnesses. There was a good deal of disinformation to get through as well as rumours and myths, so I had to work overtime. I have apparently got myself a reputation for being hard on the witnesses, but I know that the genuine ones respected my thoroughness. What I have learnt in my 20 years of research, especially in the 10 years since I have been interested in ufology, is that witnesses are a very important asset. Nobody can argue with that! Whether I approach a witness or they approach me, I don't just take their word for it, as I know many of you don't either. I check their information as much as possible, then I check it against other witness testimonies, dates, times,places..etc. Then I go back to the witness and ask him/her to answer more questions...and so it goes.If the witness has exaggerated or is not telling the truth, it will surface eventually. There are of course, several reasons why a witness wants to talk and understanding their motive has to be a priority. I have great respect for genuine witnesses and I am always grateful for their time and for sharing their experience with me. However, like many of you, during my research I have come across people who might be a witness, but unfortunately have exaggerated, then there are those who try to offer disinformation, and this is the hardest to deal with. That is why I examine a witness's motive first and foremost. None of us are experienced in everything. We can't all know everything. Therefore it is important to use the services of people experienced in, for example, science, intelligence, military, psychology, and a number of other areas. I would never take on a case without consulting the experts. With their help you have more information to address the witness with. How many times have I seen a witness come out of the closet, only to be attacked and discredited by people who have not attempted to consult that witness and seriously question him/her on their claims. How many books have I read where the author claims to know so much - but has not even tried to seriously question the witnesses or players, instead basing their case on hearsay - or something they read somewhere? It is not the witnesses we should be blaming. We should be examining ourselves and our research. Quite frankly though, that is also a problem, because it seems that some researchers get offended when questioned about their research - or claims that they have solved cases. What is even more frustrating is the researchers who are either "too much into believing" or the "sceptics who think they know it all" when they really haven't done their homework. I don't consider anyone who has blinkers on to be qualified to make decisions. Thank you for reading this Georgina Bruni
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 5 UpDate: Re: The UFOs That Never Were - Hale From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 17:19:42 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 22:33:35 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: The UFOs That Never Were - Hale >Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:36:35 +0100 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> >Subject: Re: The UFOs That Never Were >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Now, can you tell me what a "more commercially oriented" book >which "will naturally be very different in format", is? >I hope by this you don't mean, the use of very romantic Flying >Saucer shape discs on the cover and the use of emotive terms >such as 'UFO and Aliens', because we really want to steer away >from such things... after all this is the Rebirth of British >Ufology. >Because if it does then this would be the highest form of >hypocrisy I would have read, and this would be in direct >conflict with the statement put out on this List by UFOIN Hi All, Well I guess we shall have to wait for the book to arrive and see if it does have any romantic looking disc shaped craft on the cover along with UFOs and Aliens being mentioned. >Also I should have asked this question when this was put to the >List: >When this statement refers to "steering away from the extreme >views and ideologies expressed by parts of the old style UFO >community", does this mean an 'ideology or extreme view' is to >say that we have been, or are being, visited by an Alien >Intelligence? >And I am not talking about "Faith or Religion" here, that sound >bite is always used for someone who has views on Alien >Intelligence coming here. I guess there are some questions that just can't be answered. Roy..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 5 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Lovett From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 13:36:37 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 22:36:44 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Lovett >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 01:55:19 -0400 >Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 08:36:55 -0400 >Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Velez >>Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 17:42:16 -0400 >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca >>John, >>Here's my two cents. I wouldn't hesitate to name the name if I >>had more than two credible sources telling me these things >>really happened. Or maybe even two credible, independent sources >>-- that's a standard often applied in journalism. If I were >>reporting on this for a newspaper or magazine, I might go to >>print with two sources. And it wouldn't in the least hurt the >>chances of those who might bring legal action. We see lawsuits >>in the news all the time. Doesn't hurt their chances for >>success. >>As you know, John, I made an effort to check this story, and >>found one credible source willing to confirm it. To my mind, the >>actions of the person we're not naming are outrageous, even >>though he's a respected abduction researcher, whose work I >>thought I generally admired. And actually there's one route to >>confirmation I haven't mentioned, which I'd certainly take if I >>were writing a journalistic report on this. Call the researcher >>and call the person who allegedly bought the files. If they both >>confirm the story, then I wouldn't hesitate, not for an instant, >>to print both names. >>Greg Sandow >Hiya Greg, >Ok, you're on! I'll ask them myself. Do you have the telephone >numbers for Robert Bigelow, John Carpenter and Walt Andrus? :) >Any help securing these contact numbers will be most >appreciated. I will be sure to report the results of those >conversations to the list. >Regards, >John Velez John, At least one of these numbers is readily available. Diane WALTER H. ANDRUS, JR. MUFON International Director Telephone: (830) 379-9216
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 5 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Kaeser From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 11:58:19 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 22:30:07 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Kaeser >Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:45:43 +0100 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Back to reality, I've uploaded (for a short time) a photo of >Mantell's crashed aircraft, together with the photo of a P-51, >to my web site at: >http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/mantell.jpg >As you can see, Mantell's aircraft was relatively intact when it >hit the ground. >Guess Wilbert's no more trustworthy than many others with an >abundance of sensational yarns. I would have emphasize "relatively" to accept that statement as true. The plane was apparently not in pieces when it hit the ground, or at least it fell into a confined area. I think of an intact aircraft as being in one piece, and identifiable. I somehow doubt anyone could look at that photograph with no other information and identify the type of aircraft that it was. Wilbert is an interesting individual, and apparently had some contacts with the U.S. Government in regard to the investigation into unknown flying objects. I think it's important to take the time frame into account here and understand that at the time that Wilbert's conversations probably took place the Mantell crash was fairly recent and due to truly "unknown" causes. The initial explanation contrived by investigators was proven to be bogus, and the Skyhook explanation was not really considered until many years had passed. >If some or all the MJ-12 documents are fake >Nick, they are so obviously bogus a ten-year-old could see >through them, as opposed to the more recent MJ-12 documents, >which were apparently written by one. I'd be curious to know what you believe a 10-year-old would be able to see in the MJ-12 documents that would indicate that they were fakes. I would agree that there is very good reason to question their validity, but your statement (IMO) is one of emotion and not logic. The comment would seem to indicate more about your view of those who put any credence into the documents, and relegates the discussion to one of personalities and not substance. For the record, I'm not a supporter of the MJ-12 documents as being real, but until someone comes forward to acknowledge their involvement in their creation I don't believe I would be willing to accept that they've been proven to be fake. Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 5 UpDate: New Jersey UFO Conference - Benson From: Tom Benson <sparkle@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 13:50:47 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 22:38:30 -0400 Subject: UpDate: New Jersey UFO Conference - Benson Hi List: The subject conference,sponsored by THE UFO/ET WORLD TRAVELING MUSEUM & LIBRARY OF SCIENTIFIC ANOMALIES will hold the 11th UFO/ET CONGRESS on October 7 & 8, 2000 at the Days Inn in Bordentown, New Jersey, NJ Rt. 206 at exit 7 of the New Jersey Turnpike. For information write: Pat Marcattilio- DR UFO, 221 joan Terrace, Hamilton, New Jersey 08629 or call(609)631-8955 between 11am and 3 pm week days or Saturday/Sunday or e-mail Tom Benson at sparkle@earthlink.net. or write: Tom Benson, P.O. Box 1174, Trenton, New Jersey 08606-1174. The group that sponsors the above conference, the Trenton UFO Study Group has held meetings once a month since the Fall of 1984, one of the oldest in the country. The meetings are open to the public on the first Wednesday of the month at 7:30 pm at the Hamilton Township Library (609)581-4060. Tom
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 5 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Salvaille From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 17:24:43 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 22:40:48 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Salvaille >Date: Tue, 04 Jul ++2000 00:45:43 +0100 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 18:27:36 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >>Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >>http://www3.sympatico.ca/updates/archive/wbsmith.htm <snip> >>Does the above information given by Wilbert support the story >>that Captain Mantell had a close encounter with a Skyhook >>balloon? I do not think so, anymore than another balloon story >>can explain the Roswell UFO crash half a year later. >I think they're all certainly comparative - Wilbert, Roswell, >MJ-12, Cors.. nah, let's not go there. >Back to reality, I've uploaded (for a short time) a photo of >Mantell's crashed aircraft, together with the photo of a P-51, >to my web site at: >http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/mantell.jpg >As you can see, Mantell's aircraft was relatively intact when it >hit the ground. >Guess Wilbert's no more trustworthy than many others with an >abundance of sensational yarns. <snip> >Anyway, I hope the photograph helps to answer your questions. James, You will understand my irritation since I read Nick's post and went to his link before I read yours and went to your link. Truth is in the eye of the beholder. Dunno if you noticed, but the relatively intact Mantell's aircraft model on the right is flying in mid air. It is not crashed. As for the left picture, looks like an intact all-dressed pizza with the pepperoni missing. Would you believe a UFO witness who would come up with such a clear pizza picture? No. Should a pizza picture serve to discredit Mr. Wilbert because he obviously threatens your belief system? No. The pizza picture does help answer the following question: "should I believe James Easton assessment of a UFO case?". Cheesh, Serge Salvaille
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 5 UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 16:49:59 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 22:42:44 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? >Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 22:15:41 -0700 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >Subject: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >For what little its worth, I (sigh!) still list the case with a >very low credibility rating. Any lower and its in the poubelle. >I have it as 18 APR 1961 around 11:00 AM in or near Eagle River, >WI. Some dark figures from a 4-meter saucer asked farmer >Simonton for water, then cook up some poor quality pancakes. >With all their supposed technology, one might imagine better >pancakes. Hi Larry, This sort of continues the mini-discussion on the 'high strangeness factor' which has continued off and on. I understand where you are coming from, but my take, from a skeptical-believer point of view, is a bit different. BTW, I should preface this by saying UFO (disk or light in the sky) reports are, in my mind, a category which deserves its own, separate discussion from contact/occupant cases. Having said that, I think when we are talking about cases involving occupants, the strangeness factor actually adds to the credibility in some ways. First, the fact that these cases do not fit the 'stereotype' of an encounter adds credibility, in terms of lessened likelihood of report contamination, etc. Second, and this is probably even more highly debatable, I think that the strangeness also adds an odd sort of genuineness to the encounter, which contrasts what some have called the "cheesy sci-fi factor" of abductions, anal probes, and cross breeding. Taking a guess how real aliens, whatever they are, might behave, I would go with a highly strange encounter over a cross breeding any day of the week. Now, I'm not stuck up on pancakes or anything, but the harder it is to make sense of, the more likely it is, I think, that we could be talking about something truly alien. And this is coming from a self proclaimed skeptic (meaning "skeptic" in the good way, I think). You can imagine I am not th e most popular guy at either UFO parties or skeptic conventions. But, ah well... Of course at least part of the time I get fed up and think it's all a bunch of bunk anyway, so don't hold me to this on any of my highly jaded days (daze?). Best, Tim )+( TBrigham@ksinc.net http://zap.to/DevilsAdvocate The Devil's Advocate http://zap.to/MindPhuck Operation MindPhuck "Better to go hungry than to feast on lies." )+(
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 5 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Tonnies From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 18:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 22:56:40 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Tonnies >Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:28:06 -0500 (CDT) >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/mantell.jpg >>As you can see, Mantell's aircraft was relatively >intact when >>it hit the ground. >Relatively intact? >You certainly must know your aircraft. >I can't tell a blessed thing from that image. >My 2 cents. >-Brian C. I suppose "relatively intact" is a relative term itself... Thank you for this image. I see nothing in it that shoots down the description given in the MJ-12 papers. ===== Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 239 E. Sea Independence, MO 64050 816-833-5910 http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 5 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 18:12:42 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 22:58:11 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:45:43 +0100 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Nick wrote: >>Wilbert shared much secret UFO information with his high level >>U.S. counterparts, including flying saucer hardware and even >>alleged communications with alien commanders of certain orbiting >>E.T. spacecraft, the details of which can still be found at the >>University of Otttawa archives where many of Wilbert's papers >>and other UFO documents are kept. >I think they're all certainly comparative - Wilbert, >Roswell, >MJ-12, Cors.. nah, let's not go there. Communication with orbiting craft? This is indeed a rather explosive claim, and I don't think it's mentioned in the MJ-12 documents. Is there a way to look into this other than going to the University of Ottawa...? ===== Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 239 E. Sea Independence, MO 64050 816-833-5910 http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 5 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Deschamps From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net> Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 10:25:08 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 23:04:08 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Deschamps >Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:28:06 -0500 (CDT) >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:45:43 +0100 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> ><snip> >>Back to reality, I've uploaded (for a short time) a photo of >>Mantell's crashed aircraft, together with the photo of a P-51, >>to my web site at: >>http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/mantell.jpg >>As you can see, Mantell's aircraft was relatively intact when >>it hit the ground. >Relatively intact? >You certainly must know your aircraft. >I can't tell a blessed thing from that image. >My 2 cents. Hear, hear! I don't know how this plane could be "relatively intact" after such a dive! I think someone needs to get his eyes checked. Just another attempt, I guess, at diminishing a classic UFO case. Cordially, Michel M. Deschamps
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 5 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 19:43:40 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 23:43:58 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Balaskas >Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:45:43 +0100 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 18:27:36 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >>Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>"As nearly as we are able to re-create the accident, Mantell was >>pursuing a UFO and was able to get quite near - in fact, well >>into its operating field. His aircraft just fell apart and was >>scattered over quite an area". >>"In Mantell's case, the altered field configuration in the >>vicinity of the craft reduced the binding forces within the >>structure of the aircraft to a value below that of the load >>which the parts were supposed to carry. So it just came apart". >I think they're all certainly comparative - Wilbert, Roswell, >MJ-12, Cors.. nah, let's not go there. >Back to reality, I've uploaded (for a short time) a photo of >Mantell's crashed aircraft, together with the photo of a P-51, >to my web site at: >http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/mantell.jpg >As you can see, Mantell's aircraft was relatively intact when it >hit the ground. >Guess Wilbert's no more trustworthy than many others with an >abundance of sensational yarns. Hi James. Sorry to shatter your assumptions about Wilbert B. Smith or your beliefs about how Captain Thomas F. Mantell died but shortly after Dr. J. Allen Hynek had apologized to Edward J. Ruppelt (former head of the U.S. Air Force Project Blue Book) about the Air Force report which suggested that the planet Venus played a role in this tragedy, Edward got a copy of the official accident report. This report said that Thomas' F-51 airplane lost a _wing_. I only see the right wing (to the left of the propeller) in your photo of the "relatively intact" F-51 wreckage. Now which yarn should one accept as the truth, yours or Wilbert's which is in apparent agreement with the head of Project Blue Book and your photo? Maybe Wilbert knew what he was talking about after all... What are the dangers, if any, of a trained pilot chasing Venus or a Skyhook balloon at 60,000 feet, both higher than a F-51 can go? Even if Thomas passed out because of lack of oxygen by continuing on to 20,000 feet (remember hard working climbers have reached to the summit of Mount Everest breathing only the air at 29,000 feet and I too did not pass out during a visit to the world class observatories on top of a 14,000 foot snow capped mountain in Hawaii), it would be nearly impossible for his airplane (including the Cessna 152 I learned to fly in) to go into a steep dive on its own, let alone reach the incredible speeds required to rip a wing off. I have spoken with Canadian government officials and scientists who have worked with Wilbert or knew him personally. They all had the best things to say about Wilbert as a person and as a fellow scientist (not much unlike what one expects to hear about someone like Dr. Vannevar Bush), although they all became uncomforable and made apologetic remarks after I brought up the subject of his research into UFOs. I have to admit that a lot of the documents I have uncovered about Wilbert's research into UFOs are at times too much for me to take seriously, but many supportive documents from other "behind the scenes" Canadian scientists force me not to dismiss anything. One such interesting document is an NRC attendence sheet dated April 7, 1952 signed by 12 top Canadian government officials and scientists below a large logo of a flying saucer! Guess what this study group discussed five years before Sputnik hearlded in the space age? 30 years later Canada (Toronto) was host to a MUFON Symposium where Arthur Bray (an authority on Canadian ufology and the one who made public the contents of Wilbert's Top Secret Memo which mention Dr. Vannevar Bush) and William L. Moore (author of 'The Roswell Incident') were present as speakers. Maybe the MJ-12 documents which were susequently revealed to the public a few years afterwards by ufologists such as Timothy Good and Stan Friedman are just Americanized versions of what Arthur and William introduced at this UFO symposium. Nick Balaskas
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 6 UpDate: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 17:25:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 00:00:34 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter Hello All, I spoke with Walt Andrus (who is the head of MUFON) today. (Weds. 7/5/00) To make a long story short, he _confirmed_ the fact that John Carpenter did in fact _sell_abductee_files to Robert Bigelow for an undisclosed amount of money. He was quick to add that, "all of the names, addresses, and other identifying information of the abductees had been blacked out" and that, "the files that were sold were from John Carpenters own personal case files." Part of the verbatim conversation went as follows: ---------------------------------------------------------------- JV- = me WA- = Walt Andrus I introduced myself: JV- Walt, what can you tell me about this business involving John Carpenter having sold abductee files to Robert Bigelow? Is there any truth to any of that? WA- It's true, John did sell some files to Bigelow. I understand that his wife (name 1) had provided (name 2 deleted) with this information. Which (name 2) subsequently posted on a webpage (along with the names of the abductees involved.) She (name 2) eventually took the webpage down after only two days. We're still trying to find out if it was (name 2). JV- Were any of the files that were sold taken from the MUFON Databank? Those files represent contributions from several researchers. WA- No, they were his own personal files. The names, addresses, and other identifying information on the files that were sold had been blacked out of course. It was a private transaction. (*The reason I asked this question is because John Carpenter was in charge of gathering material for the MUFON databank at the time this transaction transpired. I'd think it is incumbent upon anyone investigating this matter to _make_sure_ that no files from the _databank_, donated by contributing, independent researchers, had been sold along with Mr. Carpenter's "personal" case files. The 'source material' of the files that were sold becomes of paramount importance in light of Mr. Carpenter's role as head of the MUFON Databank Project. --JV) JV- Are you planning to investigate this? WA- We are currently looking into this. I am waiting for some additional information to arrive so that we can complete our own investigation. We have the FBI helping us too! JV- (Shocked and a bit tongue tied at the comment) The FBI, that's great! ---------------------------------------------------------------- Walter seemed to get 'uncomfortable' at this point in the conversation and said to me; "I don't know why I should say anything further to you, I don't know you from Adam." It was almost comical. It was like he suddenly realized that he was confiding in (spilling his guts) to a complete stranger! He then rapidly proceeded to dismiss me, excuse himself, and he summarily hung up the phone. All in one breath/huff. I did mention during my introduction that I was making inquiries on bahalf of, (and that I would be reporting our conversation to) an Internet list. It may have suddenly dawned on him that for all intents and purposes he was talking to the 'media'! <LOL> I was fortunate to catch him with his knickers down around his ankles like that. Otherwise he would have blown me off the phone immediately and I wouldn't have gotten squat in terms of hard answers and information. The bottom line is: I now have confirmation (from three reliable sources) that this transaction (abductee files for cash) took place. My 'sources' are; one of the abductees whose file was sold, a major (and well known) abduction researcher/author, and now Walt Andrus, the 'Head' of MUFON. As far as I'm concerned it's 'official.' Abduction experiencers should look out for _themselves_ before reporting to anyone. It's a matter of self-defense. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To All Abductees: Make absolutely sure to secure written and signed assurances that your privacy and anonymity will be protected and maintained when contacting -any- abduction researcher. An honest and ethical researcher will have no problem providing and signing that type of an agreement. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This is all such a nightmare. Nasty business from start to finish. I now have further confirmation that a transaction involving the sale of abductee files to private citizen Robert Bigelow actually took place. (*BTW, Bigelow is entitled to buy whatever his money can legally acquire for him. I don't hold him as 'culpable' as the others who have set themselves up as researchers and counsellors. Bigelow is just like me in that sense, like the abductees if you will, he wants answers. Only in Bigelow's case, he has the 'grease' to by it. Whether that is right or wrong is for someone else to decide. I sit in judgement of no man.) I'm only 'reporting' what I've learned about this business to some of my associates here on UpDates. Walt Andrus spoke/sounded as if he knows of all this as a fact, a (done thing) and he appears to know much more detail than he revealed during our brief conversation. Someone closer to him might get more out of him than I was able to. If you 'read between the lines' you'll note that he took care to distance himself/MUFON from any involvement. "they were his (John Carpenter's) own personal files." he told me. Although I'm not quite sure how the FBI got dragged into this, I'm glad that Walter gave assurances that both MUFON and the FBI(?) were investigating the matter. The public needs to put some pressure on MUFON to make the results of such an investigation a matter of public record. Otherwise, (if they insist on keeping this a strictly private/internal matter) the chances of this kind of thing happening again are pretty good. This affects _all_ of us and we all have a right to know. I have yet to speak to either Carpenter or Bigelow. If/when I do speak to them I will inform the List. I don't know what to do with all of this. It is so disheartening. Some of the people who are allegedly 'helping' us, who are allegedly on our side, turn out to be the ones that needed watching. For myself and other abductees it is very much a case of being caught in a hail of "Friendly Fire!" What the hell do you do, (can you do, other than cover up and duck) when you are simultaneously being fired upon from the front, _and_ from some of your own troops behind you? It's a freaking impossible situation for the poor bastards like me (abductees) who only need some information and assistance. Who can you trust? This whole thing has made me sick to my stomach. Ufology Sucks Bigtime! Period. It's a disorganized, unregulated, sh*tty mess. This most recent example is the direct result of _dis-unity,_ a lack of communication, and basic agreements among participating groups and individuals. Ufology needs a 'review board' of some kind. Until an "Umbrella" organization with 'real teeth' is formed and put into place, incidents such as this one involving the selling of private files will continue to happen. _If_ there are no stops in place to prevent it. I need a break from this. I'm not a 'reporter.' This is too mucking fuch for me to handle alone. Is there anyone with _more_ knowledge and experience (a, 'for real' investigator or journalist) that is willing to 'run with the ball'? I'm moving down-court at high speed in a tight 'three on one' situation here. Don't leave me hanging now. The clock is running. I need a 'Michael Jordan' to pass the pill to or we may not score! I'm Johnny nobody and a self professed abductee to boot. Fish this big can have a little fish like me for lunch! Help.<G> John Velez, Sickened over this. -- ______________________________________________ A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center - www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm jvif@spacelab.net "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ______________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 6 UpDate: Re: Chupacabras in Tierra del Fuego - Hale From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 05:21:42 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 10:19:48 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Chupacabras in Tierra del Fuego - Hale Scott Corrales wrote: >Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 11:34:17 -0400 >From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com> >Subject: Chupacabras in Tierra del Fuego >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Dear Friends, >After a media-imposed hiatus, news of the Chupacabras's further >exploits has re-entered the popular awareness. Chile has been >spared this time as the strange creature sets its sights on >Tierra del Fuego--the southernmost point of the Americas. >Scott Corrales >Institute of Hispanic Ufology >www.inexplicata.com <snip> Hi All, Can anyone on this list explain to me why this " Creature" has been seen more often in South America, than anywhere else in the World? Or is it seen in America and other places around the World, Europe etc...? Just curious. Roy..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 6 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 23:58:06 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 10:18:13 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Hammond >Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 04:28:27 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >self policing and self correction in progress. >John Velez, (I'd rather -know- than not know!) Dear John, Jim, Robert, Diane et al: Don't know where anyone got the idea that I'd rather _not_ know, nothing could be further from the truth! It may have made me fearful for a while, but I got over that soon enough. I think the Abduction Community and UFO Community and the Man Comunity were done a truly great service by John bringing this to light. The only people hurt at this point are the 140 poor helpless one's who were taken in by this charlatan! I think, in retrospect, that this will not impact on the other serious researchers other than having to answer a few more jittery questions, and, this is something I sincerely hope each 'serious' researcher will do, is sign and give to the Client an avidavit of total confidentility This could include as possible 'punishments' something such as, having to publicly explain their actions, any monies received and by whom, etc. on a List such as this. Turning over any money made to be divided equaly among those harmed. Well, you get the drift. I am just a housewife, ladies and guys. I am sure there are others on this List who could flesh this out and give it some 'teeth'! I also hope that any abductees out there who read but don't participate carefully read some of the Posts on this thread. In essence, they tell you to be careful! Do your homework. If you are dealing with someone calling themselves a 'researcher', don't be afraid to ask them what their background is. And PLEASE, the fact that someone says they are a psychologist does not make them god! Check their credentials carefully. Call the licensing board of the State they live in as well as the surrounding States. Do not give out ANY personal information to anyone until you have checked them out throughoughly. There are people on this List, and you know who they are if you read enough (not me), who have very high ethical standards and knowledge of the players in this game and will give you any information you want about anyone claiming 'research" status. Ask questions, then ask more questions. When you are finished, ask some more! Then, hang up! Check the person out as thouroughly as you can. Sleep on everything. Only when you have satisfied yourself that this is a reputable person, and, as importantly, that this is something you want to get into, should you re-contact the individual. When you do go see someone in person, I strongly recommend that you take another person with you. This is really for safety reasons. If you are going to be hypnotized you may have a great deal to think over. I think having someone else to drive you home is a very wise idea. As far as Medical Records are concerned, I was not asked for any. If you are, I would again give a lot of thought before I turned anything that private over. For myself, I would need to be in a relationship of pretty long standing before I did that and then I might only let my researchers read them, I would then take them back with me. I don't think, and again, this is a personal choice, that I would leave them there. No matter how I felt about the researcher. That's entirely up to the individual. John, you once gave me a very well worded document for use with a therapist. It addressed ethical questions and such. Of course, now I want it, I can't find it! Maybe you could put it up somewhere for people to download? If I recall, it was probably a bit too long just to post here. That was a very helpful tool for all involved, and one of those things that you might want to "publish far and wide". Be assured that every abductee I talk to who is not on UpDates knows this whole story. I know several other abductees who are doing the same. So it IS getting out pretty far and wide. This is something every abductee who is working or contemplating working with a researcher HAS to know. I haven't died of fear yet, and neither will anyone else. If we haven't died from the fear of "Them" then no stinkin' rat of a phoney tool for the rich man is going to hurt any of us! Thanks again, John, for looking out for the rest of us. We have to keep the light shining on us as much as we can. We have all been a dirty little secret for way too long which is no doubt why this man thought he could just build a box and stick all his "Clients" in it. Big label: "FOR SALE"! Guess he didn't get the message that we are all coming out of the box now, not going in! Yours, Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 6 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 01:01:08 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 10:32:45 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 18:12:42 -0700 (PDT) >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Nick wrote: >>>Wilbert shared much secret UFO information with his high level >>>U.S. counterparts, including flying saucer hardware and even >>>alleged communications with alien commanders of certain orbiting >>>E.T. spacecraft, the details of which can still be found at the >>>University of Otttawa archives where many of Wilbert's papers >>>and other UFO documents are kept. >Communication with orbiting craft? This is indeed a rather >explosive claim, and I don't think it's mentioned in the MJ-12 >documents. Is there a way to look into this other than going to >the University of Ottawa...? You can read the entry on Wilbert Smith in Jerry Clark's UFO Encyclopedia. Smith thought he got mental messages from space people. He is, by the way, an interesting figure, a scientist (despite his metaphysical interests) who did in fact claim to have discussed secret US government knowledge of UFOs with an American insider. That alleged insider, Robert Sarbacher, was interviewed several times before he died in the mid-80s, and confirmed both the conversation and the secrets. Whether this proves anything is open to debate. But where does James Easton get the idea (set forth in a previous post) that Smith was hoaxing when he claimed to know American secrets? Smith was, by all accounts, thoroughly naive; people have questioned his scientific rigor, his common sense, and maybe even his sanity, but never his sincerity. Does Easton have evidence for this alleged hoax? And what kind of hoax would it be, to (as Smith did) scrawl some notes on an alleged conversation, and then leave them buried in your private papers, to be found only after your death? Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 6 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 01:37:10 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 10:35:52 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Mortellaro >Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 11:46:22 -0400 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 19:47:21 -0400 >>>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 01:48:03 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>You left one thing out. A pall has been cast over the researcher >>community which it did not need or deserve. Not unless everyone >>is guilty. And in my opinion, everyone is now suspect. A good >>thing or not so good? Who wins? Who loses? Everyone. >>I am a little ashamed to admit that I am often among the first to >>be critical of the research community. But I also fancy myself >>to be a searcher after the truth. In this instance, the truth is >>unclear, at least to me. >Unless and until the full story, including the names of those >involved comes out publicly, everyone in the Research Community >is suspect. And even after, will it always be in the back of >people's minds that if it happened once it can happen again? >Just when it started to feel to a lot of people that things were >starting to come together and we were beginning to gain some >credibility that we are telling the truth (as we know it) >something like this crops up. I beleive it has done irreperable >harm to the whole Community, those who are "out" and those who >were contemplating "coming out". This is a black time for all of >us. Dear Liz, Listers and EBK, Agreed. Which was the point of my last post. So good has been done! And some bad. Who wins? The abductee? The research community? No one wins with such an indictment. Allow me to expand. Which I have done over the years and which is why I am always on a diet. There are questions which are not answered and should have been answered. Some of us are associated with researchers. Rightly or wrongly, when a name pops up, the name of a researcher pops up, too. I'll give you an example, and with this example, you can figger out what the hell I am saying. Guilt by association... Jim Mortellaro = J. Jaime Gesundt There's a good example. If I were to come out with a "What IF" scenario, everyone (or a lot of blokes, if not everyone) will immediately associate me with Dr. "G." So the guilty party is Dr. "G!" Maybe. Perhaps it would have been better if the scenario were more specific in the negative. Meaning, "This scenario does not apply to So and So!" People are going to assume. Even if it makes as ass out of themselves. Even if they are wrong. So what exactly is the warning about? Presumably, that anyone planning to spill their guts, better ask for a statement in writing that their privacy is guaranteed. But in the process verbal, there is the danger of assumed guilt. And that part of the scenario bothers me. Everyone is guilty. Even the innocent. As do any personal statements aimed at sending a message to the offending party. That'd be me. Even followed by the expression, "LOL!" I am not laughing. Online or off. Anyone who is should consider looking up their sleeves to see if one happens to be occupied by a set of laughing lips. I recall a passage in DUNE by Frank Herbert, where Muad Dib has killed a man named "Jamis." Jamis called Muad Dib out after Muad Dib embarrassed Jamis in front of the "tribe." At the funeral, each member of the tribe was required to stand up and say, "I was a friend of Jamis." It was deemed very bad luck if the statement wasn't said by all. Even those who were not friends of Jamis. The point is in the difference between the Fremen people and the rest of us. Those who stood up and said "I was a friend of Jamis" really meant it. Maybe not in life. But in death. It was important to the tribe that it be said and meant. And so it was said and meant. And friends never implicate one the other when there is an opportunity to avoid doing so. Jim Mortellaro
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 6 UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 01:47:38 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 10:39:25 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Hammond >Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 17:25:40 -0400 >From: Liz Hammond,lizzz@worldnet.att.net >Subject: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 17:25:40 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Hello All, >I spoke with Walt Andrus (who is the head of MUFON) today. >(Weds. 7/5/00) To make a long story short, he _confirmed_ the >fact that John Carpenter did in fact _sell_abductee_files to >Robert Bigelow for an undisclosed amount of money. >He was quick to add that, "all of the names, addresses, and >other identifying information of the abductees had been blacked >out" and that, "the files that were sold were from John >Carpenters own personal case files." Part of the verbatim >conversation went as follows: >---------------------------------------------------------------- >JV- = me >WA- = Walt Andrus >I introduced myself: >JV- Walt, what can you tell me about this business involving >John Carpenter having sold abductee files to Robert Bigelow? Is >there any truth to any of that? >WA- It's true, John did sell some files to Bigelow. I understand >that his wife (name 1) had provided (name 2 deleted) with this >information. Which (name 2) subsequently posted on a webpage >(along with the names of the abductees involved.) She (name 2) >eventually took the webpage down after only two days. We're >still trying to find out if it was (name 2). >JV- Were any of the files that were sold taken from the MUFON >Databank? Those files represent contributions from several >researchers. >WA- No, they were his own personal files. The names, addresses, >and other identifying information on the files that were sold >had been blacked out of course. It was a private transaction. >(*The reason I asked this question is because John Carpenter was >in charge of gathering material for the MUFON databank at the >time this transaction transpired. I'd think it is incumbent upon >anyone investigating this matter to _make_sure_ that no files >from the _databank_, donated by contributing, independent >researchers, had been sold along with Mr. Carpenter's "personal" >case files. The 'source material' of the files that were sold >becomes of paramount importance in light of Mr. Carpenter's role >as head of the MUFON Databank Project. --JV) >JV- Are you planning to investigate this? >WA- We are currently looking into this. I am waiting for some >additional information to arrive so that we can complete our own >investigation. We have the FBI helping us too! >JV- (Shocked and a bit tongue tied at the comment) The FBI, >that's great! >---------------------------------------------------------------- >Walter seemed to get 'uncomfortable' at this point in the >conversation and said to me; "I don't know why I should say >anything further to you, I don't know you from Adam." >It was almost comical. It was like he suddenly realized that >he was confiding in (spilling his guts) to a complete stranger! >He then rapidly proceeded to dismiss me, excuse himself, and >he summarily hung up the phone. All in one breath/huff. >I did mention during my introduction that I was making inquiries >on bahalf of, (and that I would be reporting our conversation >to) an Internet list. It may have suddenly dawned on him that >for all intents and purposes he was talking to the 'media'! ><LOL>I was fortunate to catch him with his knickers down around >his ankles like that. Otherwise he would have blown me off the >phone immediately and I wouldn't have gotten squat in terms of >hard answers and information. >The bottom line is: >I now have confirmation (from three reliable sources) that this >transaction (abductee files for cash) took place. My 'sources' >are; one of the abductees whose file was sold, a major (and well >known) abduction researcher/author, and now Walt Andrus, the >'Head' of MUFON. >As far as I'm concerned it's 'official.' Abduction experiencers >should look out for _themselves_ before reporting to anyone. >It's a matter of self-defense. >---------------------------------------------------------------- >To All Abductees: Make absolutely sure to secure written and >signed assurances that your privacy and anonymity will be >protected and maintained when contacting -any- abduction >researcher. An honest and ethical researcher will have no >problem providing and signing that type of an agreement. >---------------------------------------------------------------- <snip> Dear John: First, my thanks, and all abductees thanks, for putting yourself on the line this way. I feel totally nauseaus just reading this. I can only imagine how you must feel. Even though I had already learned who the culprits were, I cannot stop myself from crying, seeing it in print like this! We are just never safe, are we? So many of us, lost so much of our lives, all of our innocence, any hope of just being as normal as the guy next door. And now this? Freindly fire, indeed. I feel nuked! I'd like to know where that bastard lives. I'm too upset, and shouldn't be writing now. Post it and it haunts you forever, right! I'll just say thanks again, and leave all this for the morning, when I may (I doubt) be calmer! Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 6 UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 02:00:47 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 10:41:48 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Hatch >Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 16:49:59 -0500 >From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> >Subject: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 22:15:41 -0700 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >>Subject: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>For what little its worth, I (sigh!) still list the case with a >>very low credibility rating. Any lower and its in the poubelle. >>I have it as 18 APR 1961 around 11:00 AM in or near Eagle River, >>WI. Some dark figures from a 4-meter saucer asked farmer >>Simonton for water, then cook up some poor quality pancakes. >>With all their supposed technology, one might imagine better >>pancakes. >This sort of continues the mini-discussion on the 'high >strangeness factor' which has continued off and on. I understand >where you are coming from, but my take, from a >skeptical-believer point of view, is a bit different. >BTW, I should preface this by saying UFO (disk or light in the >sky) reports are, in my mind, a category which deserves its own, >separate discussion from contact/occupant cases. Having said >that, I think when we are talking about cases involving >occupants, the strangeness factor actually adds to the >credibility in some ways. First, the fact that these cases do >not fit the 'stereotype' of an encounter adds credibility, in >terms of lessened likelihood of report contamination, etc. >Second, and this is probably even more highly debatable, I think >that the strangeness also adds an odd sort of genuineness to the >encounter, which contrasts what some have called the "cheesy >sci-fi factor" of abductions, anal probes, and cross breeding. >Taking a guess how real aliens, whatever they are, might behave, >I would go with a highly strange encounter over a cross breeding >any day of the week. Now, I'm not stuck up on pancakes or >anything, but the harder it is to make sense of, the more likely >it is, I think, that we could be talking about something truly >alien. >And this is coming from a self proclaimed skeptic (meaning >"skeptic" in the good way, I think). You can imagine I am not th >e most popular guy at either UFO parties or skeptic conventions. >But, ah well... >Of course at least part of the time I get fed up and think it's >all a bunch of bunk anyway, so don't hold me to this on any of >my highly jaded days (daze?). Dear Tim: I cannot take issue with the good points that you make above. The "cheesy sci-fi factor" could be expressed in a number of ways, including the stale, predictable "messages from our space brothers" that some contactees dish up. This sort of "high-school journalism" does nothing but detract from the credibility of such a report, I agree. And, yes, the unexpected aspects do add a sort of oddball credibility too! I think I know exactly what you mean. One seemingly "ordinary" saucer sighting happened over a farmer's partially completed hen-house as I recall. The only thing "odd" besides the UFO itself, was that some heat lamps were left on radiating upward into the sky .. and I was left wondering if that attracted the attention of the UFO in the first place. The cone-turnip shape of the Vins- Sur-Caramy case is quite atypical, yet we have 3 + 1 solid witnesses. The oddness, the atypical nature of this case did not detract from it in my personal opinion .. but sort of added to it, just as you suggest. What bothered me in the Simonton case, was that the "aliens" allowed Simonton to *keep* some of the pancakes, unconsumed, or any other tangible piece of evidence for that matter. This is very inconsistent with just about every case I have catalogued, say 17,660 events, and with an even larger number which I did not. Whoever or whatever is responsible for the most mysterious UFOs, assuming even these are not mundane, must be working overtime to make sure that no tangible scrap of evidence is left behind. Alternatively, maybe they just make sure that nothing clearly alien is left behind; 3rd rate pancakes from regular earthly ingredients being quite unrevealing. Maybe they actually have left little bits of this or that, and cleaned up the mess later. Maybe there is an empty container, a loose fastener, a forgotten tool, a broken part .. buried in a few inches of soil. Maybe there are piles of alien junk at the bottom of the ocean hidden by sand, weed and barnacles. They aren't going to win any culinary medals regardless. Best wishes - Larry Hatch PS: All that pancake talk got me hungry so whomped some up. I used too much yeast or whatever, and they were pretty bad.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 6 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Deschamps From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 02:13:36 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 10:45:11 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Deschamps >Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 10:25:08 -0400 >From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:28:06 -0500 (CDT) >>From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> >>Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:45:43 +0100 >>>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >>>Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >><snip> >>>Back to reality, I've uploaded (for a short time) a photo of >>>Mantell's crashed aircraft, together with the photo of a P-51, >>>to my web site at: >>>http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/mantell.jpg >>>As you can see, Mantell's aircraft was relatively intact when >>>it hit the ground. >>Relatively intact? >>You certainly must know your aircraft. >>I can't tell a blessed thing from that image. >>My 2 cents. >Hear, hear! I don't know how this plane could be "relatively >intact" after such a dive! I think someone needs to get his eyes >checked. Just another attempt, I guess, at diminishing a classic >UFO case. Hello All: It occurs to me there may be a misunderstanding here. I cannot speak for Eastland, but he may have meant that the plane was "relatively intact" in the seconds 'just preceding' the collision with the ground... as opposed to having been blown, torn or shot to shreds at altitude. In that latter case, one wing could be a mile from the other, and the fuselage would not be neatly pizza-plated right in between, but scattered all over county. Was that the meaning of "relatively intact"... simply that the plane hit the ground in more-or-less one piece? The results still remind me of my brother's used Studebaker none-the-less. Best - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 6 UpDate: Re: For The Record - Hayes From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 10:42:17 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 11:52:51 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: For The Record - Hayes >Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 14:03:32 -0400 >From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> >Subject: Re: For The Record >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 11:28:28 +0100 >>>From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com> >>>Subject: Re: For The Record >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 14:55:39 -0400 >>>>From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> >>>>Subject: For The Record - Lovett >>>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>>With Errol's permission and tolerance, I would like to make a >>>>note "for the record" regarding any posts that I make to this >>>>list. I believe that Errol's own rules and guidelines are pretty >>>>specific, but as an individual I would like to note the >>>>following: >><snip> >>>>One site claims to have used my post with my permission, yet I >>>>sure don't remember giving it. >>>Hello Diane, >>>Would this be a posting on the UFOINFO site? If so I would like >>>to explain that I have asked the moderators of those lists if I >>>can use occasional postings and that is what the 'used with >>>permission' statement refers to. <snip> >Hi John, >Actually I hadn't seen that one! I had a look, and I don't mind >that post being there at all, you have my permission to leave it >up. Whenever I send out something that is a general news item or >report like that I don't generally have a problem with anyone >passing it along as long as it is in the correct context. Thanks for that. I tend to use messages involving news or sighting reports and anything marked 'List Only' does not get used. Obviously the main reason is to get some content for the site but I rarely use follow-up reports and encourage readers to join the relevant mailing list to follow the topic and include active links to any web sites quoted. One thing I have noticed and it is something Errol might like to comment on is that cross posting of articles between mailing lists has decreased significantly. Has there been some agreement not to do this, is it because of what we are discussing now, or just that there isn't anything to cross post? >The ones that worry me are those that are more personal in >nature, thoughts, theories, experiences, opinions and such. >Most of us fire off things like that from time to time, usually >in response to something someone else posted, and those are the >things that I don't feel should be copied anywhere else. I share your concerns there and hope everyone with a web site takes notice. Serge Salvaille's message made a lot of sense and asking for permission before using is the way to go. Regards, John Hayes ufoinfo@ukgateway.net webmaster@ufoinfo.com UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com Official Archives for UFO Roundup, UK UFO Network Bulletin, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine plus archives of Filer's Files.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 6 UpDate: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 27 From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 11:16:55 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 14:04:59 -0400 Subject: UpDate: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 27 Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor. <Masinaigan@aol.com> ========================== UFO ROUNDUP Volume 5, Number 27 July 6, 2000 Editor: Joseph Trainor UFOs AND ALIENS SIGHTED ON VIEQUES ISLAND Two months ago, on May 4, 2000, FBI and Department of Justice agents forcibly removed protestors from the firing range on Isla Vieques (island), off the east coast of Puerto Rico. Now strange stories of small aliens and visiting UFOs are circulating among the island's 9,300 residents, according to Puerto Rican ufologist Jorge Martin. Vieques is 21 miles (33 kilometers) long and and 3 miles (5 kilometers) wide and is located just east of the Roosevelt Roads Naval Station at Cieba, P.R. President Franklin D. Roosevelt set up the Navy firing ranges on the island during World War II. "Investigating in Vieques we have found a wealth of data which indicates there may be a UFO/alien angle to the matter, one with powerful implications for all of us humans," Martin stated. During his investigations, Martin interviewed Angel Encarnacion, a commercial fisherman and a resident of Vieques. Encarnacion reported, "One night, while fishing out at sea south of the shooting (Navy firing) range, and east of Vieques, we saw in the distance a really big and shining light.. Getting closer, we saw that it was suspended in the air. It was a huge light...a round and hufe flying object with lots of lights turning on and off intermittently all around the ship. There were yellow, green and red lights." "On the bottom, right in the middle of the saucer, it had a really big green light, aimed at the ocean's surface. It wasn't more than 100 feet (30 meters) above the ocean. But that thing wasn't from this world." "What shocked me most was seeing the object absorb water from the ocean. You could actually see the water rising and entering the object through where the green light was coming from. It was a really big volume of water going up. You could not see any fish or anything else in the water going up. And all of this without a single sound. Nothing!" "As we got closer to the saucer, it stayed still for a while and then it immediately left, flew away very fast in the direction (west--J.T.) of El Yunque or Cieba (where the Roosevelt Roads Naval Station is located--J.T.) It was really fast. It was gone in seconds. Incredible!" On another night-fishing trip, Encarnacion said that he and his partners "saw a shiny green light rising from the bottom of the ocean. (At first) They thought it was a U.S. (Navy) submarine in the area that was surfacing. But just at the time at which the light should have surfaced, the green light disappeared, and everything was quiet again." Then Encarnacion heard something that made the short hairs stand up on the back of his neck. "We heard the sound of water falling into the ocean nearby." (Editor's Comment: Sounds like the saucer turned on some kind if invisibility field.) Unable to actually see the UFO, the fishermen heard it "rise into the night sky" before it departed. "Besides this, we have seen shiny objects come out of the lagoons," Encarnacion added, "after which they got lost at high speed. They are shiny lights, orbs or balls of light of a blue-white color." Martin also interviewed several teenagers, former members of the Cadetes de la Marina (Puerto Rican version of the Sea Scouts--J.T.) The cadets "were doing exercises in the vicinity of El Tapin lagoon" on Vieques, Martin reported, "when they saw 'some very strange little dark men,' gray or blackish in color, who were very fast and ran speedily from one place to another. sometimes in a zigzagging motion and sometimes in jumps." (Editor's Comment: Zigzagging motion, eh? Note the similarity between these creatures and the Chupacabras reported at Calama and Chuquimata in Chile.) "'They would stop suddenly in front of us,' one teen reported, 'and then we would see them, and then they would leave, sometimes very fast.'" "'They were three to four feet (0.9 to 1.3 meters) high, and were skinny, with long arms,' he added, 'And their heads were kind of big and egg-shaped. They were weird.'" Martin dded, "The ex-cadets added that on occasion they the said little dark men would jump into the lagoon, disappearing into the water. and they observed 'various blue-white spheres that vary in size, from four to eight inches in diameter, that enter the water of the lagoon." Martin added that, according to Puerto Rican journalist Jorge Seijo, the island "is not used for military practice and exercises , and its real use consists of serving as an experimental field" for high-tech weapons. According to a report by Seijo, he added, "the navy and Raytheon Corporation "were testing in Vieques a weapon iknown as the Phalanx Block AB-1, an automatic computerized armament," a rapid-fire cannon that "fires depleted-uranium" shells "at a rate of 2,000 per minute." (Editor's Comment: Ah-ha! So that's why the saucer was taking samples of the ocean water.) Martin added that armed forces from the Netherlands, France, Venezuela and Brazil have also used the range on Vieques for amphibious-landing practice. (See "U.S. Navy insists 'Vieques is Irreplaceable;' What is the U.S. Navy doing in Vieques?" copyright 2000 by Jorge Martin, all rights reserved. Muchas gracias a Jorge martin para eso articulo.) SEVEN CRESCENT-SHAPED UFOs SEEN OVER MONTREAL On Wednesday, June 21, 2000, at 11:55 p.m., telephone workman Ned N. and two friends were sitting on the hilltop of Mount-Royal in the large city of Montreal, Quebec, Canada when they "spotted seveal UFOs high in the sky." "We were lying on the grass in the park," Ned reported, "when we spotted the UFOs. Their estimated height (altitude) was 26,000 to 30,000 feet (7,800 to 9,000 meters)." "They had all the same shape, that of a small crescent. They were all very small in the sky, and they looked like a lead pencil (dot) at arm's length." "First there was only one. I call it the 'leader shipp," traveling across the sky in about 15 seconds. Five minutes later, a second one appeared also. Thirty minutes later, a whole fleet traversed the sky, coming from the same place at the same altitude. The UFOs were completely parallel and kept the same position relative to each other." Ned offered this diagram of the UFOs position as they crossed the sky. O O O O O O O Ned added that he "felt a buzz or pressure in my head at the time of the sighting. Another one of the group present had a headache." "I think somebody might have been aware that the UFOs were passing over," he added, "Because there were more projections (searchlights--J.T.) in the sky over MontrealThere were six or seven of these lights compared to the two we see every evening." (Email Form Report) ANOTHER UFO IS VIDEOTAPED IN ITALY On Tuesday, June 20, 2000, at 11 p.m., a man who had his camcorder handy spotted "a white rhomboidal object hovering in the night sky" over Viterbo, a large in central Italy about 100 kilometers (60 miles) north of Rome. Immediately he raised the camcorder and began shooting footage. He shot ten minutes' worth of video of the white rhomboidal object hovering over the rooftops of Viterbo.. Then the UFO darted away. (See the newspaper Corriere di Viterbo for June 23, 2000.) On Sunday, June 25, 2000, "a teenager observed a luminous metallic object proceeding over Porto Torres" at 10:15 p.m. Porto Torres is on the west coast of the island of Sardinia, located about 30 kilometers (18 miles) northwest of Sassari. Forty-five minutes later, "two newlyweds were on the porch of their new house is Tissi," also near Sassari, "when they observed to the south a round flying object of a red color, with white flashing lights. The object hovered nearby for over five minutes, then it slowly disappeared." Both cases are being investigated by Sardinian ufologist Antonio Cuccu. On May 31, 2000, "a teenager in Napoli (Naples) observed from the balcony of his apartment house a gray metallic object brilliantly reflecting the light of the sun. He snapped two photographs of the OVNI (Italian acronym for UFO--J.T.) before it zoomed out of view." (Grazie a Edoardo Russo, Giovanni Ancione, Antonio Cuccu, Enzo DeAngelis, Enzo De Luca e Giorgio Rossolilliol di Centro Italiano di Studi Ufologicim, CISU, per questi rapporti.) FIRST CROP CIRCLE OF 2000 APPEARS IN SASKATCHEWAN On Monday, June 19, 2000, a farmer in Willmar, Saskatchewan, Canada (population 120) "found five rings in wild pasture grass, each measuring 25 to 27 feet (8 meters) in diameter and about 2 feet (0.7 meters) wide." Willmar is on Provincial Highway 604, located about 105 miles (168 kilometers) southeast of Regina. At least three of the circles "had an 'opening' or a cut in the ring, with a horseshoe or partial ring shape. Some of the rings had several small 'grapeshot' circles inside them, about 10 inches wide, as well as standing tufts of tall 10-inch grass. The rings are being described as being dark green in colour, with the grass very much stunted in growth, not flattened or level and different from typical crop circles." The formation in Willmar is Canada's first crop circle of the year 2000. Paul Anderson of Circles Phenomenon Research-Canada noted that Willmar " is close to Midale, Sask., the site of many crop circles in past years." Local reporter Dawn-Marie Barker found "an interesting synchronicity," Anderson said, the first crop circle in Willmar "appeared exactly 25 years ago to the day," back in 1975. (Many thanks of Paul Anderson of CPR-Canada for this report.) VATICAN RELEASES FULL TEXT OF THE FATIMA PROPHECY After 56 years of silence, the Vatican released on Monday, June 26, 2000 "a 62-line handwritten account by Lucia Abobora de Jesus dos Santos of what she saw as a 10-year-old shepherd in a pasture" at Cova da Iria "near Fatima, Portugal on July 13, 1917." Five successive popes had kept Lucia's tale locked in a safe, feeding fevered speculation that 'the third secret of Ftima' predicted the end of the world. The secret spawned a cult that held the mother of God as both savior and prophet of doom--one enhanced by the Vatican's sirprise announcement last month that her apparition at Fatima had foretold the 1981 wounding of Pope John Paul II by a would-be assassin (Mehmet Ali Agca--J.T.) in St. Peter's Square." "Releasing the full text of that prophecy at the pope's instruction, the Vatican's top theologican Monday gently debunked the Fatima cult and sid Catholics were not required to believe it." "In a 12-page commentary, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger said that Lucia, now a 93-year-old cloistered Carmelite nun, might have conjured her vision from devotional books." "Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, did not endorse a papal spokesman's claim that the felled 'bishop in white' was John Paul or the pope's long-stated belief that Mary had deflected the bullets meant to kill him as an instrument of divine will." "Ratziner judged Lucia's text to be an interpretation of Christian suffering in the Twentieth Century, neither tied to specific events nor foreordained. He said it underlined hopeful church teaching that 'there is no immutable destiny...in the end, prayer is more powerful than bullets and faith more powerful than armies.'" "'Those who expected exciting apocalyptic revelations about the end of the world or the future course of history are bound to be disappointed,' the German cardinal wrote." "At a Vatican news conference, Ratzinger explained that popes had delayed revealing the text because of the fuzziness of the message, which he said could be deciphered 'only in the light of history.'" "Asked whether the Fatima secrets pertained only to the past, he replied, 'I think so.'" UFO Roundup now presents the actual text of the prophecy written by Lucia Abobora de Jesus dos Santos back in January 1944. Readers may judge for themselves the "fuzziness" of the message. Lucia: "I write in deference to you, my God, who commanded me to do so through his Excellency, the Bishop of Leiria (Portugal), and through your most holy mother and mine." "After the two parts which I have already explained, to the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an angel with a flaming sword in his left hand, flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire, but they died out in contact with the splendor that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand." "Pointing to the north with his right hand, the angel cried out in a loud voice, 'Penance! Penance! Penance!' And we saw in the immense light that is God something similar to how people appear in a mirror as they pass in front of it...a bishop dressed in white. We had the impression that it was the Holy Father (a future Pope--J.T.) Other bishops, priests, men and women religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big cross of rough-hewn trunks, as of a cork-tree with the bark." "Before reaching this, the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and, half-trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on the way. Having reached the top of the mountain, as he knelt in front of the big cross, he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him. And in the same way there died one after another all the bishops, priests, men and women religious, and various lay people of all ranks and positions." "Beneath the two arms of the cross there were two angels, each with a crystal chalice in their hands, in which they gathered up the blood of the martyrs and went and sprinkled it on those who were making their way to God." The interesting thing about this prophecy is how closely it conforms to other seers' visions of the Last Days, dating all the way back to Philomena of Nicopolis back in 304 A.D. Philomena was a princess of ancient Nicopolis in the Roman province of Moesia Inferior (modern Razgrad, Bulgaria.) When she was fourteen, "one summer night (July 304 A.D.) Philomena (Greek for Beloved--J.T.) had a prophetic dream. She saw an endless number of virgins dressed in white robes, carrying palms in their hands. They sang a hymn that filled her heart with joy. One of the virgins beckoned Philomena to approach, but between them lay the sea where an enraged dragon blocked Philomena's crossing." "The next morning, she spoke of her dream with Macrima," an elderly servant in the household, who immediately recognized it as a scene from the Book of Revalation. Since then, this "Procession of the Doomed" seen by Lucia Abobora de Jesus dos Santos in 1944 has been part of many prophetic visions, including Philomena, Bertwahld of Glastonbury in 1045, Mariana Paredes y Flores of Quito, Ecuador in 1644, the La Salette apparitions of 1846 and Padre Pio Forginone in 1968. (See the Duluth, Minn. News-Tribune for June 27, 2000, "Vatican ends Fatima debate," page 6A. See also Visions of Mary by Peter Eigher, Avon Books, New York, N.Y., 1996, page 17. Obrigado a Antonio Monteiro por esas traducoes.) (Editor's Comment: The psychic link between Philomena in 304 A.D. and Sister Maria-Luisa de Jesus of Napoli (Naples) in 1804 is an amazing tale of either time-travel or bilocation in its own right. We'll have to get to it sometime.) CHEMTRAILS REPORTED IN OSLO, NORWAY On Thursday, June 29, 2000, Stig Aron M., 39, a resident of Oslo, the capital of Norway, telephoned his parents. Stig had been reading about chemtrails on the Internet and mentioned them to his father, who lives in Osterdalen. Then his father mentioned something strange. In recent days, the elder M. had seen unmarked dark green or olive drab C-130 Hercules aircraft taking off from the lNorwegian air base at Osterdalen. "Dad said he wondered why all the Hercules planes were using the runway on their flights and returning only 45 minutes later," Stig reported. He added that Osterdalen is the staging area for Norwegian forces committed to the NATO effort in Kosovo, and his father thought that might be the answer. (Editor's Comment: Trouble is, you can't fly from Norway to Kosovo and back in only 45 minutes.) The next day, Friday, June 30, 2000, Stig was at his apartment when he noticed "a large airplane (that) flew over the central part of Oslo at a very low height (altitude). I wondered what it was and went out on my balcony and saw a large airplane (greenish colour, and I'm sorry I can't give you any more accurate information--S.M.) in the easterly direction with a large 'white-gray' tail behind it." "It then flew to the north, and about four minutes later, it came back and nearly crushed the pipe (chimney--J.T.) on my building. It was a terrible noise! The same white-gray tail was behind it, when it turned north again and never came back." "After some minutes, a distinct chemical odour was hanging in the air, and I got a terrible headache and cough," he added, "Later I telephoned some friends elsewhere in Oslo, and they said they had a headache and a cough, as well." (Many thanks to Rev. Billy Dee for forwarding this report.) (Editor's Note: This is the third incident of the appearance of chemtrails in Europe reported to UFO Roundup. Previous incidents occurred in Italy and Croatia. Is Project Cloverleaf somehow involved with NATO? Stay tuned.) PSYCHICS REPORT MORE "BIG WAVE" DREAMS UFO Roundup has received more accounts of Big Wave dreams from various readers. Charlotte M. is a psychic living in the city of Flint, Michigan. She writes, "I have had a terrifying dream about a tsunami in Hawaii." Charlotte's vision took the form of headlines from the Honolulu Star-Bulletin superimposed above the dream-image. She saw headlines such as HUGE WAVE 300 FEET HIGH HITS HAWAII and MASSIVE LOSS OF LIFE. "The only safety was inland," she stated, "I saw several people standing on a high cliff huddling together, and the water curling around their feet." (Editor's Comment: Honolulu readers, when it all goes down, head for Puowaina--fast!) Wanda W. is a former Massachusetts resident who moved to central Vermont in 1998. She said she has been having tidal-wave visions since 1978. "I have been having these for twenty years," she reported, "My first one (in 1978) involved what I thought was San Francisco where the water was hitting the glass windows of the skyscrapers. I actually can see the wave itself moving towards the city. It was a very lucid dream, not like my 'usual' dreams." "Then in 1996 I started having them on full and new moons two or three times per year." After she moved to Vermont in September 1998, "I dreamed of a large circular storm that covered southern New England. I could see the leading edge of it in a blue sky horizon with the sun shining, but it never reached me." (Editor's Comment: Her dream isn't all that fantastic. As one who grew up there, I can tell you that the states of southern New England--Massachusetts,, Connecticut and Rhode Island--have experienced three catastrophic hurricanes during the past two centuries. These include the "Great Gale" in August 1819, the "Hurricane of '38" in September 1938 and Hurricane Carol in September 1954.) On Thursday, June 15, 2000, she reported, "I had a tidal wave dream of people in a big city. This is the first tidal wave dream I have had since moving up here. It could be any big city, in a typical apartment house where I was, and it was on the coast. But I think it was in the (USA's) Northeast. The waves were coming in intervals of 15 to 20 minutes, and there was a lot of sloshing as seawater ran through the streets." On Wednesday, June 7, 2000, just before 6 a.m., your editor had another strange tidal wave dream. And this one was really weird. I dreamed I was standing on a narrow cobblestoned street looking down a small hill at a seaport with many sailboats and fishing boats at anchor. It was an autumn day, blue sky with intermittent cumulous clouds, with a mild, chilly sea breeze. On the horizon I saw two large islands, the one on the right closer to the harbor, the other more distant. Right in front of me the street ended at a T-intersection with a centuries- old ornate stone wall overlooking the waterfront. Wondering where I was, I began walking. I turned right and headed downhill, passing a large modern hotel--the Riviera, I believe it was called. I noticed the United Nations flag flapping from the aluminum pole, so I kept on walking. There was a slight chop on the sea, a few whitecaps, nothing serious. Brazil? I thought. No, too cold for Brazil. I'm somewhere in Europe. But where? Then I noticed a little walk-in cafe run by a middle-aged man in a white apron. He seemed friendly, so I went in, and there weren't many people inside. Just a handful of elderly Europeans and a booth filled with college or post-grad students from the Far East. Sitting down, I opened the menu. But to my dismay, it wasn't in any language I recognized-- French, Spanish, German, Portuguese or Italian. Must be eastern Europe, I reflected. Just then, one of the elderly men came over. He wore a black beret and a dark gray sportsjacket and baggy trousers. With a big smile, he asked, "American?" Nodding, I put down the menu. "Yes." He began beaming. "I live America many year." And he started pumping my hand. "Marco Ludovic!" So Marco and I began talking, and he asked, "So how you like Makarska?" Before I could reply, the guy in the white apron let out a holler. Looking up, I saw a dark stormy sky and very big waves through the open doorway. The sea looked closer to the entrance, with many tall, angry whitecaps. A second later, breakers began hurling foam through the doorway. The man in the apron tried to force the door shut, but the flood of water pushed it wide open. Water cascaded into the restaurant. Everybody made a beeline to the stairs--me included. Up on the second floor, we pushed open the shutters and looked out the window. The narrow streets were flooded to a depth of 3 meters (10 feet), and big rolling waves kept hitting the front, making the whole building groan and shudder. One of the Asians joined Marco and me. A woman in her early twenties, white headband, white blouse and dark slacks, possibly Japanese or Korean, but she spoke with a precise BBC accent. "Marco, we can't stay here," she said, "This building is going to collapse. We can go out through the attic." He shook his head. "No, Angie. Danger too much." "Well, we can't stay here," Angie replied. "I intend to try. Is anyone coming with me?" "Watch your step up there," I said, "Those roof tiles are bound to be slick." And I woke up. The unfamiliar word echoed in my brain--Makarska. The next day, I went to the library, and I found it. Makarska is a small port on the Adriatic Sea in what is now Croatia. It's about 120 kilometers (72 miles) south of Zagreb. Now, what's really weird about all this is that I've never been to Croatia. I didn't even know what Makarska was until I looked it up in the Times Atlas. Is this another preview of the Last Days? Or a glimpse of some disaster of the 21st Century? I don't pretend to understand them. I just report them. from the UFO Files... SPECIAL FOURTH OF JULY DOUBLE FEATURE This week, in honor of the USA's Fourth of July holiday, UFO Roundup presents not one but TWO Fortean "blasts from the past." Here we go! 1891: FOSSILS FROM SPACE? On Friday, July 3, 1891, "Children picked up a large quantity of (hail) stones and put them on a plate to melt." "But instead of melting, the stones remained and upon examination it was found that all of the hail was formed around white stones about the size of peas and in several there were fine shells. Most of the stones were transparent and of a blue-white color. Several people in other parts of the place (Palmyra, New York--J.T.) report that they also obtained a quantity of stones, and they are all mystified to know where they came from." (See the Rochester, N.Y. Democrat and Chronicle for July 5, 1891, "Hailstorm at Palmyra," page 4.) (Editor's Note: Palmyra is where Joseph Fielding Smith, the Mormon prophet, had his encounters with the angel Moroni in the 1820s.) 1907: UFO EXPLOSION OVER BURLINGTON, VERMONT The mid-air explosion of a UFO over Burlington, Vermont, on the eastern shore of Lake Champlain, is one of the strangest incidents of "the Airship Era" in ufology. This week we present the actual newspaper story as it appeared in the Burlington Free Press of July 3, 1907.. Here it is: SAW BALL OF FIRE ELECTRICAL DISTURBANCE THAT STARTLED BURLINGTONIANS YESTERDAY NOON "A forerunner to one of the heavy and frequent thunderstorms that have characterized the early summer in this vicinity startled Burlingtonians yesterday just before noon. Without any preliminary disturbance of the atmosphere, there was a sharp report, the like of which is seldom heard. It was much louder in the business portion of the city than elsewhere, and particularly in the vicinity of Church and College Streets. People rushed to the street or to windows to learn what had happened, and when a horse was seen flat in the street in front of the Standard Coal and Ice Company's office, it was the general impression that the animal had been struck by lightning and killed. This theory was not long entertained, as the horse was soon struggling to regain his feet." "Ex-Governor Woodbury and Bishop Michau weree standing on the corner of Church and College Streets in conversation when the report startled them. In talking with a Free Press man later in the day, Governor Woodbury said his first thought was that an explosion had occurred somewhere in the immediate vicinity, and he turned, expecting to see bricks flying thru the air. Bishop Michaud was facing the east and saw a ball of fire rushing through the air, apparently just east of the National Biscuit Company's building. Alvaro Adsit also saw the ball of fire, as did a young man who was looking out of a window in the Strong Theater Building. Another man with a vivid imagination declared that the ball struck the center of College Street near the Standard Coal and Ice Company's office, knocked the horse down by the jar (concussion--J.T.) and then bounded up again to some undefined point in the sky." "The unusual disturbance was followed in a few minutes by a downpour of rain, which continued, with brief interruption, for nearly two hours." (See the Burlington, Vt. Free Press for June 3, 1907, "Saw Ball of Fire," page 7.) Next Week: What the Bishop Saw, or actual eyewitness accounts of the Burlington UFO explosion of July 2, 1907. Well, that's it for this week. Join us in seven days for more UFO and paranormal news from around the planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup." See you then. UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2000 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on their websites or in newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared. ********************************************************* IMPORTANT Please Read: ====================== The Hunger Site --------------- http://www.thehungersite.com Every 3.6 seconds somebody starves to death. 3/4 of the deaths are children under 5. By visiting the Hunger Site and clicking on a button you can donate free food. There is absolutely no charge to you for the donation - the food is paid for by sponsors. Do this once a day (no more) and help make a difference! If you have a web site download a banner and give a link! ********************************************************* E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com> or use the Sighting Report Form at: http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com> UFOINFO: http://ufoinfo.com Official Archives of the UK UFO Network Bulletin, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine also available, plus archives of Filer's Files.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 6 UpDate: Request For Details Of Lecturers - Hayes From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 10:48:25 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 13:45:22 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Request For Details Of Lecturers - Hayes Dear Errol, I have just started a section on the UFOINFO site at: http://ufoinfo.com/lecturers/ where those who give lectures/talks on UFO's and related subjects can have their details listed. As the number of people listed grows I will sort it into countries and where possible give each person their own page. (See below for sample entry) For anyone wishing to have an entry added I require the following information: Lecturers Name. Contact details (at least one of the following):- Address, Phone number, and/or E-Mail address. Details of lectures given. Additionally a small photo in .gif or .jpg format can be included. The entry for Dennis G. Balthaser follows to give an idea of the information required: Dennis G. Balthaser UFO Investigator, Researcher and Lecturer Balthaser retired from the Texas Department of Transportation in 1996, after 33 years in Civil Engineering work. Prior to that, he was in the United States Army in an Engineering Battalion. He moved to Roswell, NM in 1996, to pursue his 25 year interest in Ufology and particularly the Roswell Incident, Underground Bases and Area 51. From 1996 - 1998 he was affiliated with the UFO museum in Roswell, on the Board of Directors, Operations Manager and the museum UFO Investigator. Today he is an independent researcher, investigator and lecturer and is a member of MUFON and a CUFOS associate. Lectures currently available by Balthaser: "Interception", a first hand account of his experience with alleged U.S. Air Force OSI agents in Oklahoma, June 14, 1997, while attempting to obtain physical evidence, (metal), about the 1947 Roswell Incident. "The Roswell Incident: Then and Now", from Balthaser's perspective having met many of the witnesses and worked with most of the active Roswell researchers. He uses many overhead projection transparencies as a comparison between 1947 and what is known today. "A Brief Description of AREA 51", explaining where the secret base is located, some of the security in force and discusses some of the rumors associated with the base pertaining to UFOs. "Underground Bases"(What's Under Our Feet?), discussing existing underground bases, the technology required and used to construct such facilities, and opens your mind to the possibilities that some of these bases ARE in existence and possibly house aliens underground. For lecture booking information, contact Dennis Balthaser direct at (505) 625 8402 or via email at: truthskr@roswell.net http://www.truthseekeratroswell.com [END] Regards, John Hayes ufoinfo@ukgateway.net webmaster@ufoinfo.com UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com Official Archives for UFO Roundup, UK UFO Network Bulletin, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine plus archives of Filer's Files.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 6 UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Sanchez-Ocejo From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 08:47:10 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 14:10:02 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Sanchez-Ocejo >Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 17:25:40 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter >To: updates@sympatico.ca John Velez wrote: >Although I'm not quite sure how the FBI got dragged into this, >I'm glad that Walter gave assurances that both MUFON and the >FBI(?) were investigating the matter. Dear John Velez, Read carefully what happened to Jorge Martin, ex-MUFON state director for Puerto Rico, in his article: "MUFON's Ex State Director for Puerto Rico Arrested" at: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/1341/PuertoRico.html It may give you a clue of the MUFON-FBI connection. Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo Miami UFO Center (Espaol) http://www.angelfire.com/fl/ufomiami/index.html Miami UFO Reporter (English) http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/1341/index.html Miami "Chupacabras" (Espaol) http://ufomiami.homestead.com/index.html Patagrande -Bigfoot- (Espaol) http://patagrande.homestead.com/index.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 6 UpDate: Re: Mysterious New Object? - Lovett From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 11:29:39 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 19:09:16 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Mysterious New Object? - Lovett >Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 23:36:57 -0700 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >Subject: Re: Mysterious New Object? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 13:09:34 -0400 >>From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> >>Subject: Mysterious New Object? >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>A little dated but still interesting. Can anyone provide any >>more recent info? >>Diane >>Source: The Millenium Group >>http://www.millenngroup.com/IMAGES/Mystery_Obj4.jpg >>Mysterious New Object >>By John Maynard and Jamie Stensrud April 24, 2000 ><snip> >I spoke too soon. There is indeed an ongoing thread about the >XTE J1118+480 object on a Japanese Astronomical email list. Here >is their latest: >http://www.kusastro.kyoto-u.ac.jp/vsnet/Mail/vsnet-campaign/msg00221.html >You can navigate back to earlier messages. Numerous other >objects/observations are discussed, but you can cherry-pick from >a list here: >http://www.kusastro.kyoto-u.ac.jp/vsnet/Mail/vsnet-campaign/maillist.html >by looking for J...+480 links. >No big news in all of this. I gather the object went into a >fading trend in May, which bottomed out and then got brighter >going into early June. >Other than that, its pretty dry reading. No indication of >artificial signals or anything neat like that. Thanks Larry. I did some further link info privately as well, and it did turn out to be not so mysterious after all. "Not everything that glitters....". Diane
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 6 UpDate: Nick Pope's Weird World - June 2000 From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 15:42:12 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 19:20:13 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Nick Pope's Weird World - June 2000 NICK POPE�S WEIRD WORLD Welcome to June�s column, where I�ll be offering the usual mixture of news and gossip from the weird world of UFOs, aliens and the paranormal. Say Hello, Wave Goodbye I�m back from the Year 2000 UFO Abduction Conference in New York, which was organised by Budd Hopkins� Intruders Foundation and took place on 6 May. I won�t say much about it for now, because I�m writing an exclusive report for the next edition of UFO Magazine. What I will say is this: in terms of data presented and quality of presentations, this was about the best conference I�ve attended, and I�ve attended a lot, believe me. My full report will be in the July/August edition of UFO Magazine, which should hit the shops on 29 June. In the meantime, watch out for reports and feedback from the Intruders Foundation itself, at: www.IntrudersFoundation.org I�ll soon be off on my travels again though, and this month I should be attending the 8th International Meeting on UFOs and Related Phenomena (being held in San Marino on 3-4 June) and the Second International UFO and New Age Symposium (being held in Istanbul on 23-25 June). It�s funny, you wait ages for an invitation to speak at an overseas conference, then three come along at once! Missed Again We�re still here. The world hasn�t ended, despite the views of various seers who predicted that an unusual planetary alignment on 5 May would spell the end for life on Earth. I didn�t run the story last month because there�s no point scaring people with such grim tales when the scientific community have patiently explained that the gravitational effects of the alignment would be negligible. Enough apocalyptic nonsense has been trotted out in recent years (in relation to stories about giant spacecraft arriving in the tail of Comet Hale-Bopp, and in relation to the prophesies of Nostradamus, for example) and I decided not to fuel this particular fire. For those interested in real threats to our existence about which something can be done, let me direct you to Spaceguard UK, a group set up to raise awareness about the threat posed by comets and asteroids, and to lobby for action. Details can be found at: www.ds.dial.pipex.com/spaceguard/ UFOs And The FBI One of the speakers at the New York conference was Bruce Maccabee, who very kindly gave me a copy of his new book, UFO-FBI Connection. I�m in the process of reading it now, and have to say that it�s fascinating. The title will obviously appeal to fans of The X-Files, but in truth the book goes much wider than the involvement of the FBI, and brings in the CIA and, more comprehensively, the United States Air Force. The subtitle (The Secret History of the Government�s Cover-Up) hints at this broader perspective. People who are familiar with Nicholas Redfern�s intriguing book The FBI Files (Simon & Schuster UK Ltd, 1998) will want to check out Bruce�s book, and anyone interested in how the US Government and military have responded to the UFO phenomenon will not be disappointed. UFO-FBI Connection is published by Llewellyn Publications at $14.95. Check out www.llewellyn.com for details of this and similar titles, or get hold of it via the usual Internet book sites. Egypt Again Oh no, not another book on the mysteries of Ancient Egypt? Oh yes! Still, I�m not too depressed, because this latest in a long line of books on this subject is by the prolific and eminently readable Herbie Brennan. Frankly, I really don�t have the expertise to evaluate the data in books like this, but if Egypt is your thing, why not give it a try? It�s certainly wide-ranging book, and it�s an easy read, with each chapter subdivided into shorter, titled sections. The Secret History of Ancient Egypt costs �16.99 and is published by Piatkus Books (further details at www.piatkus.co.uk). The Darwin Awards Those of you who don�t know about the Darwin Awards are missing a real treat. These hilarious - if rather sick - awards are given to those who remove themselves from the gene pool by managing to kill themselves, unintentionally, in the most bizarre and stupid fashion. The awards, naturally, are posthumous. Recent awards include the man who decided to play Russian Roulette not with a revolver but with a semi-automatic pistol. Consequently, the probability that the bullet would fire was -- 100%. Check out www.darwinawards.com for macabre laughs. Caught With Their Pants Down While we�re on the subject of weird and wonderful websites, you might also like to check out: www.thesmokinggun.com which details, how can I best put this, celebrity indiscretions. For legal reasons I�m not going to repeat any of these tales, but if you want confirmation that the rich and famous are just as fallible as anybody else, this site is worth a visit. And Finally Those of you who work in offices are doubtless familiar with posters carrying inspirational slogans, helpfully supplied by the personnel department. Fed up with soundbites? Want to hit back? I�ve seen a whole list of alternative suggestions recently, and here are my personal favourites: Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity Go the extra mile. It makes your boss look like an incompetent slacker Indecision is the key to flexibility Eagles may soar, but weasels don�t get sucked into jet engines Aim low; reach your goals; avoid disappointment Rome didn�t create a great empire by having meetings, they did it by killing all those who opposed them Nick Pope London June 2000 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Nick Pope�s three books, Open Skies, Closed Minds, The Uninvited and Operation Thunder Child are available from all good bookshops and from the usual Internet book sites. His UK publishers are Simon & Schuster. In America, The Overlook Press publish his books in hardback while the paperbacks are produced by Dell Publishing.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 6 UpDate: Re: Chupacabras in Tierra del Fuego - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 11:09:27 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 19:14:47 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Chupacabras in Tierra del Fuego - Clark >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 05:21:42 +0100 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Chupacabras in Tierra del Fuego >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 11:34:17 -0400 >>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com> >>Subject: Chupacabras in Tierra del Fuego >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Roy and all, >Can anyone on this list explain to me why this " Creature" has >been seen more often in South America, than anywhere else in the >World? Or is it seen in America and other places around the >World, Europe etc...? Or perhaps more to the point: can anyone explain why just about any time animals die violently in South America, somebody assumes chupacabras -- even in the absence of (supposed) sightings of same -- are responsible? Frankly, I think the chupacabras phenomenon is something ufologists and Forteans should leave to psychologists, sociologists, and folklorists. This strikes me as the biggest nonstory and time-waster currently on-going. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 6 UpDate: Choosing A Researcher Or Therapist - Lovett From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 12:12:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 19:17:13 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Choosing A Researcher Or Therapist - Lovett Hi all, When the situation about a researcher selling info first came up, I contacted several researchers and others in Ufology to ask directly if they knew anything about this. Some have not yet responded, but some did. Mr. Andrus as well as Mr. Bigelow are aware of the problem, and Walt has responded now to John directly, we shall just have to wait and see what Mr. Bigelow says. Dave Jacobs told me that he had heard the rumor, and assured me and everyone that it did not involve himself or Budd Hopkins in any way. Now, as to choosing a researcher to work with, particularly someone who does hypnosis too, Dave has a good info sheet up on his web site that I recommend reading. It can be found at: http://www.ufoabduction.com/hypnosis.html I don't mean this note to be in any way endorsing any one researcher, but simply offering some info on what to look for when choosing one to work with. Diane
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 6 UpDate: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 15:42:16 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 19:19:39 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 Nick Pope It's hot, it's sunny, but I'm inside writing this July column, slaving over a hot PC to bring you the very latest breaking news from the weird and wonderful world of UFOs, alien abductions and the paranormal. I just hope you appreciate it! Italian Air Force Attend San Marino UFO Conference Last month I attended a fascinating UFO conference in San Marino, organised by Dr Roberto Pinotti. There was an absolutely massive line-up of speakers appearing over the two days of the event, including American researchers Linda Moulton Howe and Derrel Sims, Italian experts like Roberto Doz and Paola Harris, and other ufologists from a wide range of countries including France, Spain, Germany, Switzerland, Russia, Norway, Romania and Brazil. There was even a rare public appearance by Desmond Leslie, who wrote Flying Saucers Have Landed with contactee George Adamski. The most significant event from a ufological point of view was the attendance of a delegation from the Italian Air Force, on Saturday 3 June. They arrived in uniform, and Colonel Aldo Olivero gave a presentation in which he gave details and analysis of some of the UFO sightings reported to the Italian military. It' s highly unusual for there to be any official government/military participation in a UFO conference, and it's to be hoped that more initiatives of this kind are forthcoming in other countries. Italian speakers should check out www.cun-italia.net for details of Dr Pinotti's group and its activities. New Age Controversy Almost as soon as I finish writing this column I'm leaving for Turkey, where I'll be attending the International UFO and New Age Symposium in Istanbul, being held on 23 - 25 June. There's been controversy about this, starting when someone expressed surprise that Stanton Friedman would associate himself with a New Age conference. This all seems rather bizarre: some of the most successful conferences are those where there's a wide cross-section of views. Budd Hopkins and John Mack have some very different ideas about the alien abduction phenomenon, but both agree it's real. So who's to say who's interpretation is correct, and who's to say that New Agers aren't right about some of what's going on? I'll write up a report of this conference in next month's column. UFO Magazine The July/August edition of UFO Magazine is out now. I've written a full report on the Intruders Foundation conference held in New York on 6 May and have included some wider comments about the state of abduction research in the UK. It's bound to be controversial. Meanwhile, check out their website at www.ufomag.co.uk for details of how to order the remarkable new video UFOs: Hard Evidence V. Among a fascinating wealth of amazing UFO films there are interviews with witnesses and experts, and an exclusive report on the Phenomena exhibition. One of those featured is Chris Martin, whose book Intruders in the Night is also being marketed through UFO Magazine. I worked with Chris and his ex-partner and have to say it's one of the most extraordinary series of UFO sighting and alien contact cases I've investigated. I wrote the foreword, and would recommend this book to anyone with an interest in the abduction phenomenon. Chris will be speaking at UFO Magazine's conference in Leeds on 15, 16 and 17 September. Check the magazine for details of what promises to be a fascinating conference. More Mars Images Those interested in Mars can now access an extraordinary database of over 20,000 images of the Red Planet. So for a window on another world, go to: www.msss.com/mars_images and browse away. Project Hessdalen A little closer to home but no less interesting are the many UFO sightings that have for many years being taking place around Hessdalen in Norway. The sheer volume of sightings makes this one of the most important UFO hotspots (or so-called window areas) in the world, yet the fact that ufology can sometimes be too US or UK-centric means that this doesn't get the publicity it should. This is particularly true given the scientific methodology used to log and analyse the sightings. For those not familiar with this remarkable story, check out www.hessdalen.org for details. Incidentally, there's much, much more to Norwegian ufology than just Project Hessdalen, (e.g. some fascinating abduction cases, such as that of Kate Thorvaldsen). See www.ufo.no for details. Moon Madness Conspiracy theorists of various kinds will doubtless have read much into the report that appeared in The Observer on 14 May, claiming that in 1958, at the height of the Cold War, the United States Air Force developed a top secret plan - codenamed Project A119 - to detonate a nuclear device on the moon. The claims have been made by Dr Leonard Reiffel, who says that the aim of the project was to demonstrate US military superiority at a time when they were lagging behind in the space race. An ICBM was to be fired at the dark side of the moon, just beyond the visible edge, ensuring that the mushroom cloud would be visible from Earth. When contacted about these claims a Pentagon spokesman would neither confirm nor deny them. Danger In The Skies The Observer on 4 June carried details of how researcher Colin Ridyard lobbied the Ministry of Defence and the Civil Aviation Authority, and managed to obtain comprehensive details of recent UFO sightings where objects had either been tracked on radar, or had near-misses with aircraft. Colin kindly sent me copies of his letters to and from the MOD and the CAA, together with his analysis of the way in which the data has been handled by these respective organisations. UFO Magazine will be running a detailed feature on this data, but to give you a taster, the incidents include a report from 15 February 1999, when an air traffic controller in Scotland reported an unidentified object which was tracked on radar, moving at speeds estimated as being around 3000 miles per hour. Sceptics might be wondering whether this could have been an experimental prototype aircraft. There's only one problem with that: the object was estimated to be ten miles wide and two miles long! Oh, by the way, the Ministry of Defence's official position on this incident is that it was of no defence significance. Nick Pope, London 2000 Nick Pope's three books, Open Skies, Closed Minds, The Uninvited and Operation Thunder Child are available from all good bookshops. His UK publishers are Simon & Schuster. In America, The Overlook Press publish his books in hardback while Dell Publishing produce paperback editions.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 6 UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Cuthbertson From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 12:02:29 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 19:22:15 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Cuthbertson >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 02:00:47 -0700 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >Subject: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Whoever or whatever is responsible for the most mysterious UFOs, >assuming even these are not mundane, must be working overtime to >make sure that no tangible scrap of evidence is left behind. >Alternatively, maybe they just make sure that nothing clearly >alien is left behind; 3rd rate pancakes from regular earthly >ingredients being quite unrevealing. >Maybe they actually have left little bits of this or that, and >cleaned up the mess later. Maybe there is an empty container, a >loose fastener, a forgotten tool, a broken part .. buried in a >few inches of soil. Maybe there are piles of alien junk at the >bottom of the ocean hidden by sand, weed and barnacles. Larry, Well, I have just the webpage for you; its entitled "Out of Place Artifacts": http://www.eprf.tzo.com/html/artifacts.html Note in particular the page on the "fossil spark plug": http://www.eprf.tzo.com/html/spark_plug.html the world is indeed a quirky place, full of strange things and stranger people. (present party excepted of course :-) -Brian C.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 6 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 12:12:06 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 19:24:46 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Clark >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 01:01:08 -0400 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 18:12:42 -0700 (PDT) >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> >>Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Greg, >Whether this proves anything is open to debate. But where does >James Easton get the idea (set forth in a previous post) that >Smith was hoaxing when he claimed to know American secrets? >Smith was, by all accounts, thoroughly naive; people have >questioned his scientific rigor, his common sense, and maybe >even his sanity, but never his sincerity. Does Easton have >evidence for this alleged hoax? And what kind of hoax would it >be, to (as Smith did) scrawl some notes on an alleged >conversation, and then leave them buried in your private papers, >to be found only after your death? You're absolutely right. Wilbert Smith can be fairly criticized on questions of judgment and critical-mindedness, but no one till now has ever accused him of hoaxing. That's really outrageous. Having seen a fair amount of Smith's personal correspondence, I can say that he was a naive guy who tended to believe just about anything he heard. He routinely took seriously stories that most of us would judge dubious or insufficiently substantiated, but there is zero evidence that he concocted these stories himself. The trashing of the reputations of dead (and living) ufologists seems to be a blood sport among some. It's an appalling practice especially when applied to the innocent. And Smith was an innocent in both senses of the term. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 6 UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Rutkowski From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 12:13:41 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 19:29:13 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Rutkowski >Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 17:25:40 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Hello All, >I spoke with Walt Andrus (who is the head of MUFON) today. >(Weds. 7/5/00) To make a long story short, he _confirmed_ the >fact that John Carpenter did in fact _sell_abductee_files to >Robert Bigelow for an undisclosed amount of money. <snip> >To All Abductees: Make absolutely sure to secure written and >signed assurances that your privacy and anonymity will be >protected and maintained when contacting -any- abduction >researcher. An honest and ethical researcher will have no >problem providing and signing that type of an agreement. <snip again> > This whole thing has made me sick to my stomach. >Ufology Sucks Bigtime! Period. It's a disorganized, unregulated, >sh*tty mess. This most recent example is the direct result of >_dis-unity,_ a lack of communication, and basic agreements among >participating groups and individuals. Ufology needs a 'review >board' of some kind. Until an "Umbrella" organization with 'real >teeth' is formed and put into place, incidents such as this one >involving the selling of private files will continue to happen. >_If_ there are no stops in place to prevent it. I've been reading all this saga with some curiosity and feel I should mention a few things. First of all, a proposal to theoretically prevent such abuse and problems was discussed several years ago by excellent (and therefore ignored) abduction researcher David Gotlib. He drafted a "Code of Ethics" for abduction researchers, and it was distributed in the Bulletin of Anomalous Experience (BAE) and brought out at the infamous MIT conference. The problem is that _no_one_ has adopted his proposed guidelines and ethical standards because it seems that no researcher wants to answer to anyone other than him - or herself. Ufology has no peer group per se. If anyone has a copy of this code online, it might be a good idea to post it here and start some reasonable discussion with the goal of having at least list members consider adhering to it. Second, a similar code was drafted many years ago for ufology in general, but also ignored. The trouble is that each abduction researcher has a different approach and methodology so that standards are very difficult to agree upon. Even something as innocuous as a set of guidelines for an abductee support group will be difficult to standardize until the ufological community gets its act together. (I printed a set of such guidelines in my book Abductions and Aliens, in case anyone is interested.) This even harks back to an earlier argument (sorry, thread) here about "Who speaks for ufology?" There is no one governor or spokesperson for ufology at this point, let alone a governing or review body. There are some who _think_ they are, but none who are universally accepted as such. We need a benevolent dictator in ufology, perhaps. I nominate Errol. -- Nobody in particular
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 6 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 14:57:39 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 19:51:08 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Velez >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 01:37:10 -0400 (EDT) >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 11:46:22 -0400 >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 19:47:21 -0400 >>>>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>>>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 01:48:03 -0400 (EDT) >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>You left one thing out. A pall has been cast over the researcher >>>community which it did not need or deserve. Not unless everyone >>>is guilty. And in my opinion, everyone is now suspect. A good >>>thing or not so good? Who wins? Who loses? Everyone. <snip> >Dear Liz, Listers and EBK, > >Agreed. Which was the point of my last post. So good has been >done! And some bad. Who wins? The abductee? The research >community? No one wins with such an indictment. Allow me to >expand. Which I have done over the years and which is why I am >always on a diet. >There are questions which are not answered and should have been >answered. Some of us are associated with researchers. Rightly or >wrongly, when a name pops up, the name of a researcher pops up, >too. I'll give you an example, and with this example, you can >figger out what the hell I am saying. Guilt by association... >Jim Mortellaro = J. Jaime Gesundt >There's a good example. If I were to come out with a "What IF" >scenario, everyone (or a lot of blokes, if not everyone) will >immediately associate me with Dr. "G." So the guilty party is >Dr. "G!" Maybe. First, it would be much more appropriate (and demonstrate a little character) if you were to address me directly. When I have something to say to you, I _always_ say it to your face. Show me the same respect. In regard to your remark above: a. I have not been associated with Budd Hopkins for more than a year. I was, in point of fact, very 'public' about severing the connection. Why would you or anybody else associate me or the topic of this thread with Budd? I haven't mentioned his name once anywhere. Anyone who makes such an "immediate" association (which so far seems to be you alone) is jumping to wild conclusions and more importantly, _missing the point_ completely. b. Instead of making an actual 'contribution' to this thread you choose to divert attention away to 'non-issues.' Try to concentrate and keep your attention focused on what is currently on the table before us please. I find it astounding that you have nothing more to offer here than this 'out of place' concern about the "pall that has been cast" upon innocent researchers. I have put my ass on the line in order to warn people about a couple of unscrupulous researchers (in order to protect _you_ and them from the kind of harm that has already befallen 140 others) and all you have to offer is, 'Oh, the pall that is being cast on poor innocent researchers.' And, "Gee whiz, if it was me, I'd associate this mess with the researcher that John was once associated with.' What color is the sky in your world Morty? If anyone "cast a pall"upon anyone, it was the researcher(s) themselves. I didn't go out and sell anybody else's personal files, that was one or more of them. I'm only reporting about it. Why don't you try to _help me_ instead of throwing gravel under my feet. I've got a heavy load on my back and you're busy babbling about this and that 'unrelated' issues. (And 'off the wall' I might add!) Jimmy, this is precisely why I severed ties with you last year! You continually screwed me while telling me how much you loved me. It was just a little too 'schizzy' a relationship for me. I'm not into S&M. Some people will look you in the eye and tell you that it's raining while they urinate in your face. It seems that I can't get away from that yellow downpour you keep raining down on my head. If you can't do anything else, can you try to stick to the topic at hand? c. I put out the "What If" posting in order to 'alert' other abductees that certain unethical practices existed. (that they may not have been aware of) And,(at first) without mentioning names because I didn't want to hurt any legal efforts by the injured parties that were more directly involved. Last but not least, I wrote the "What If" because I can't afford lawyers if I get sued. If you have any problems with my 'style' or the 'method' I chose to inform my brothers and sisters, then say it to my face. Don't 'hide it' in a response to Liz or anyone else. I responded directly to you, you can show me the same courtesy. >Perhaps it would have been better if the scenario were more >specific in the negative. Meaning, "This scenario does not >apply to So and So!" People are going to assume. Even if >it makes as ass out of themselves. Even if they are wrong. * Megan's Law; as a result of the brutalization and murder of a young girl named 'Megan' a law was passed in the state of New Jersey requiring that the names of repeat/convicted sex offenders be publicly posted at the time of their release. They are also required to 'register' themselves with the local police precinct where they plan to reside. The idea being that if folks are aware of these guys they can take appropriate precautions to protect their children. Using "Megan's Law" as an example: Wouldn't it be something if they required the names of all those who are _not_ sex offenders to be published as well! Jim, do you see how 'off-target,' impractical, and almost convoluted your thinking is on this issue. Instead of focusing on the topic, you're off on a trip! As a self professed abductee you should be directing your anger and your ire at the people who really started all this. Put down your pop gun. I'm only the messenger! >So what exactly is the warning about? Again I ask; What color is the sky in your world? >Presumably, that anyone >planning to spill their guts, better ask for a statement in >writing that their privacy is guaranteed. And your problem with that is,...? >But in the process verbal, there is the danger of assumed guilt. >And that part of the scenario bothers me. Everyone is guilty. >Even the innocent. Huh? Wha...? Give your statement a re-read Jimbo and if it still makes sense to you as a relevant remark pertaining to the subject at hand (which, in case you forgot, has to do with the sale of private abductee files for cash,) could you please explain your remark to me. I'm not that bright Jim, I don't get it. What does it mean? >As do any personal statements aimed at sending a message to the >offending party. That'd be me. Even followed by the expression, >"LOL!" >I am not laughing. Online or off. Anyone who is should consider >looking up their sleeves to see if one happens to be occupied by >a set of laughing lips. Yep, that was me talking alright. And unlike yourself, I said it directly to your face in response to your post. I stand by my original remark. Telling _you_ anything is just like taking it to the media! And yes, I find it amusing/funny. So I laughed. BTW, I looked, there are no "laughing lips" up my sleeve, whatever the hell that means. Oh Morty, what a freaking waste of time man. Let me ask you something _directly_; Do you have anything relevant or meaningful to say in regard to this business of abductee files being sold for cash? If not, why don't you send me all these "concerns" of yours privately so that attention is not diverted away from this important business. This issue needs to be looked at and addressed. Unless you have something of substance to contribute please consider taking it 'off list.' This is too important to trivialize. >And friends never implicate one the other when >there is an opportunity to avoid doing so. I am no friend of anyone who would hurt or abuse an abductee. You see, I _am_ an abductee. What happens to anyone of them, happens to me. (Can happen to me) When I put my ass on the line like this it would be really nice to get some support (at the very least) from my fellow abductees. Instead, I have one abductee from this list providing MUFON with copies of all my postings and demanding answers, and I'm sitting here responding to notes from you about completely unrelated non-issues. One abductee is busy trying 'set me up' for a lawsuit while another is taking me for a joyride to nowhere. I haven't heard from a single researcher, journalist or person of any authority in ufology about actively investigating this completely ority in ufology about actively investigating this completely disturbing and nasty business. No one. Instead, I'm sitting here responding to these pissant notes from you. I'll say it again... UFOLOGY SUCKS! John Velez, Getting more and more disgusted by the minute
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 6 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 18:09:33 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 20:44:05 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Balaskas >Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 18:12:42 -0700 (PDT) >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:45:43 +0100 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Nick wrote: >>>Wilbert shared much secret UFO information with his high level >>>U.S. counterparts, including flying saucer hardware and even >>>alleged communications with alien commanders of certain orbiting >>>E.T. spacecraft, the details of which can still be found at the >>>University of Otttawa archives where many of Wilbert's papers >>>and other UFO documents are kept. >>I think they're all certainly comparative - Wilbert, >>Roswell, >>MJ-12, Cors.. nah, let's not go there. >Communication with orbiting craft? This is indeed a rather >explosive claim, and I don't think it's mentioned in the MJ-12 >documents. Is there a way to look into this other than going to >the University of Ottawa...? Hi Mac. Censored copies of two U.S. documents were found among Wilbert B. Smith's papers at the University of Ottawa archives. Since these two documents may already be known to you and other researchers, a few quotes should answer your questions about communications with aliens in orbiting craft and will also enable you to determine who the major figures involved were at the time (for some reason, a name would be crossed out on one document but not the other). Mac, if you are still interested, I can share with you many of the other and lesser known documents that I made copies of while at the UofO's UFO archives. [Document One] Office Memorandum - UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT TO: DIRECTOR, FBI DATE: 8/2/54 FROM: SAC, WFO (62-0) SUBJECT: Mrs. FRANCES SWAN MISCELLANEOUS - INFORMATION CONCERNING This interview is predicated upon a telephone call received by SAC L. L. LAUGHLIN on 7/29/54 from (30 spaces crossed out) Bureau of Aeronautics, U.S. Navy Department. <snip> (6 spaces crossed out) advised that (7 spaces crossed out) wrote to Admiral ESPEY, Director of Naval Intelligence, on 6/1/54 enclosing some of the messages received by (up to 12 spaces crossed out). <snip> ... he went to (up to 22 spaces crossed out) where he spent 7/24,25,26/54 in the residence of (24 spaces crossed out) stated that he informed Admiral SAUCEK. his superior... <snip> ...(15 spaces crossed out) wrote a letter to MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Senator from Maine, concerning this information, who forwarded the information to the Secretary of Defense and copies were sent to the Army, Navy, and the Air Force. According to (15 spaces crossed out) also wrote a letter to the President of the United States. <snip> [Document Two] Dates: August 9, 1954 To: Director of Special Investigations The Inspector General Department of the Air Force The Pentagon Washington 25, D.C. From: John Edgar Hoover, Director Federal Bureau of Investigation Subject: FLYINGS SAUCERS (15 - 17 spaces crossed out) MISCELLANEOUS - INFORMATION CONCERNING <snip> Information received by (6 spaces crossed out) indicated that Knowles [*] became interested in the messages received by (9 spaces crossed out)and felt that the matter should be investigated by the Government. [*] Rear Admiral Herbert Knowles <snip> According to (17 spaces crossed out) stated that there were two space ships from which she had been receiving messages. They were described as 150 miles wide, 200 miles in length, and 100 miles in depth. Hutson stated that these ships are designated M-4 and L-11 and they also contain mother ships which measure approximately 150 to 200 feet in length. (6 spaces crossed out) related that (4 spaces crossed out) had informed him that there were approximately 5000 of these mother ships. He stated that "Affa" is the Manager or the Commander of the ship M-4 which is from the planet Uranus and "Ponnar" is the Manager or the Commander of the ship L-11 which is from the planet Hatann. (7 spaces crossed out) related that (9 spaces crossed out) stated that these contacts with "Affa" and "Ponnar" were for the purpose of protecting our own earth from destruction caused by the explosion of the atom bomb... <snip> Two giant objects of unknown origin were reported to be in Earth orbit at the time and further details can be found in several journals and books, including Major Donald E. Keyhoe's book, 'Aliens from Space'. Grant Cameron's current research seems to suggest that not only were these objects taken very seriously at the highest official levels but, as incredible as it may sounds, a good case can be made that puts these giant objects under the command of 'Affa' and/or 'Ponnar'. I for one can honestly say that I do not believe any of this but it is part of ufology and I would be wrong to dismiss it simply on a gut feeling, especially since high level government officials in Canada and the U.S., scientists (eg. astronomer Clyde Tombaugh - who had two reported UFO sightings of his own to name just one) and the military took it seriously. Nick Balaskas
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 6 UpDate: Re: Chupacabras In Tierra del Fuego - Sanchez-Ocejo From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 14:46:04 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 19:56:38 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Chupacabras In Tierra del Fuego - Sanchez-Ocejo >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 05:21:42 +0100 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Chupacabras in Tierra del Fuego >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Scott Corrales wrote: >>Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 11:34:17 -0400 >>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com> >>Subject: Chupacabras in Tierra del Fuego >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Dear Friends, >>After a media-imposed hiatus, news of the Chupacabras's further >>exploits has re-entered the popular awareness. Chile has been >>spared this time as the strange creature sets its sights on >>Tierra del Fuego--the southernmost point of the Americas. >>Scott Corrales >>Institute of Hispanic Ufology >>www.inexplicata.com ><snip> >Hi All, >Can anyone on this list explain to me why this " Creature" has >been seen more often in South America, than anywhere else in the >World? Or is it seen in America and other places around the >World, Europe etc...? >Just curious. >Roy.. Places seen: Puerto Rico -1995-1996 In 1996: Miami, California, Texas, Costa Rica, Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador Spain, Brazil, Venezuela, Portugal just to name a few countries. This year is Chile. Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo Miami UFO Center (Espaol) http://www.angelfire.com/fl/ufomiami/index.html Miami UFO Reporter (English) http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/1341/index.html Miami "Chupacabras" (Espaol) http://ufomiami.homestead.com/index.html Patagrande -Bigfoot- (Espaol) http://patagrande.homestead.com/index.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 6 UpDate: Bigelow's Response To "What If" - Lovett From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 19:28:13 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 20:48:07 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Bigelow's Response To "What If" - Lovett Below is Mr. Bigelow's response to my questions regarding the alleged purchase of abductee records from John Carpentar. While he is not saying yes he did or no he didn't, he is clearly saying that however he obtains materials of that sort, it is kept extremely confidential, which may be some small comfort to the "140". Diane -------------------- From: <nids@anv.net> To: "Diane" <Diane@futurepaths.com> Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 4:56 PM Subject: Re: John Carpentar allegations Ms. Lovett, The following reply to your question was approved by Mr. Bigelow. Sincerely NIDS Staff. NIDS Statement on Ethics (1) Confidentiality: Because of the sensitive and controversial nature of it's primary research topic, it is not NIDS policy to comment on the sources or methods of obtaining research information. NIDS obtains and creates multiple databases in the fields of UFO research, abduction and animal mutilation and in doing so, the identities and contact details of individuals are protected or redacted. Unless otherwise approved, NIDS never releases the names or identifying details of any UFO eyewitnesses, abductees or in the cases involving animal mutilations, ranchers. All individuals and consultants who work for NIDS sign a non-disclosure agreement. NIDS has physicians, psychologists and professional scientists from government and university labs on its science advisory board who help in maintaining the highest ethical research principles. (2) Publication: NIDS policy is to publish only what NIDS considers it can stand behind. NIDS publishes in the peer reviewed scientific literature, on our web site (http://www.nidsci.org) and in other appropriate media. If we publish speculation we identify it as such. (3) Investigations: � NIDS prefers to conduct low-profile investigations outside the glare of the media so that eyewitness confidentiality and evidence can be preserved. In situations where that becomes difficult, the priority is to preserve confidentiality of eyewitnesses, experiencers or animal owners. � NIDS employs full time Ph.D scientists and ex- law enforcement officers to conduct scientific analysis and investigations. � NIDS follows law enforcement procedures, methodology and ethics in conducting investigations. This includes the use of forensic approaches and establishing appropriate chain of custody for physical evidence. � Telephone investigation to establish corroborative eyewitness testimony is followed by on-site visits in those cases that are deemed of sufficient interest. Interviews are tape-recorded. Locations are videotaped. � A report is generated. If the results are inconclusive, preliminary, or confidential, the report remains internal. (4) Analysis: � NIDS has signed contracts with a number of laboratories in the United States to conduct materials analysis, biological analysis, chemical analysis and veterinary pathology analysis. � Signed statements of work are mutually faxed before the analysis begins. � Non-destructive analysis is preferred. � The emphasis is on high quality work and fast turnaround. � In some cases, more than one lab conducts analysis and results are compared. � A report of the analysis is received by NIDS within two or three weeks of the samples being shipped. The results in this report are incorporated into the final NIDS report.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 6 UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Goldstein From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>? Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 01:58:36 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 20:50:43 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? - Goldstein >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 02:00:47 -0700 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >Subject: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 16:49:59 -0500 >>From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> >>Subject: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 22:15:41 -0700 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >>>Subject: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>For what little its worth, I (sigh!) still list the case with a >>>very low credibility rating. Any lower and its in the poubelle. >>>I have it as 18 APR 1961 around 11:00 AM in or near Eagle River, >>>WI. Some dark figures from a 4-meter saucer asked farmer >>>Simonton for water, then cook up some poor quality pancakes. >>>With all their supposed technology, one might imagine better >>>pancakes. <snip> >Dear Tim: >I cannot take issue with the good points that you make above. >The "cheesy sci-fi factor" could be expressed in a number of >ways, including the stale, predictable "messages from our space >brothers" that some contactees dish up. This sort of >"high-school journalism" does nothing but detract from the >credibility of such a report, I agree. >And, yes, the unexpected aspects do add a sort of oddball >credibility too! I think I know exactly what you mean. <snip> >They aren't going to win any culinary medals regardless. >Best wishes > >- Larry Hatch >PS: All that pancake talk got me hungry so whomped some up. I >used too much yeast or whatever, and they were pretty bad. If this story were proven true, would I be a good investigator by coming to the circumstantial awareness that, at the date of this inciden, Aunt Jemima had not yet been abducted? I must look into whether there was an increase in sightings near Vermont maples. I would think that following her abduction there would be an alien syrup demand. On a more serious note, I think John Velez's warning to be a very important and disturbing matter. John and Liz, I am moved by your heartfelt sincerity. I too have never heard of a warning hurting anyone. And if idle minds want to spin out over who is the guilty party, emotionally and mentally accusing the one abduction researcher of the bunch that you never liked, go ahead, it's your weirdness. Reserve judgement until the facts are in front of your face. But once again, heeding a warning never hurt anyone. Josh Goldstein UFOs over Berlin
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 7 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Easton From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 02:33:28 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 08:35:51 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Easton Regarding: >Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:28:06 -0500 (CDT) >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: updates@sympatico.ca Brian wrote: >>Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:45:43 +0100 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >> >>As you can see, Mantell's aircraft was relatively intact when >>it hit the ground. >Relatively intact? Brian, 'Relatively' in the context of what was claimed, i.e., "His aircraft just fell apart and was scattered over quite an area" - "In Mantell's case, the altered field configuration in the vicinity of the craft reduced the binding forces within the structure of the aircraft to a value below that of the load which the parts were supposed to carry. So it just came apart". Regarding: >Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 07:48:34 -0700 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> GT McCoy wrote: >First of all: the P-51D in the picture (the intact one on the >right) is a very early model, likely taken in late 1944. The >lack if a dorsal spine running back to the vertical stabilizer >is a dead giveaway . The spine was added to increase the >stability lost when the P-51 went to the bubble canopy. >It is unlikely that Mantell's aircraft was an early P-51D, as >most were used up in the war and only a handful survived - >including ones that were used in the (short lived) revivied >Thompson Trophy Races after the war. Thanks for pointing this out. There was some discussion of this photo a while back and if it wasn't on UpDates, I thought it was probably the UFO Research List. Looking through my archives, I've located the source and was surprised to find it goes back to January 1998 on the Project-1947 list. I had noted at that time: "I intend to scan the 'best copy I've seen' photograph mentioned and will confirm when this is available on my web site... [...] There's also a suitable reference photo of a P-51 included for comparison (I'm not certain this is the _exact_ same model P-51 as Mantell's plane). [...] The crash site photograph is noted '(c) Timothy Good' and it would be appreciated if this could be kept in mind. If the same photograph is already in the public domain, rather than the 'exclusive' Tim indicates, then perhaps that could be confirmed. [End] The defence rests its case. ;) >Another thing :What happened to the Fuel? normally when somthing >hits the ground that hard it usually explodes. I had brought up the same point. In fact, looking back at those discussions, there was considerable, important - actually quite fundamental - material about the Mantell case which came to light and isn't generally appreciated. I will compile those postings into a text file and email Jan Aldrich requesting permission to copy them to UFO UpDates re this current discussion. From a cursory read of said material, it really is significant and at the time I highlighted new and little known evidence that still doesn't seem to have been resolved. This related to claims which appear to be borne out by the photograph. Presuming Jan won't mind if I quote from my initial contributions: "Some time ago, discussing the Mantell case and asking if anyone could definitively confirm details of the conversation which took place between Mantell and the control tower, I was advised: The following transcript is the statement of Technical Sergeant Quinton A. Blackwell, given to Air Force investigators working with Project Blue Book: [...] About 1430 to 1440 a flight of four P-51's approached Godman Field from the South, en route from Marietta, Ga. to Standiford Field, Ky. As they passed over the tower I called them on "B" channel, VHF and asked the flight leader, NG 869 if he had enough gas and if so, would he mind trying to identify an object in the sky to the South of Godman Field. The fourth plane proceeded on to Standiford Field alone. The three ship formation proceeded South on a heading of 210 degrees, climbing steadily, About the 1445 the flight leader, NG 869, reported seeing the object "ahead and above, I'm still climbing." To which the wing man retorted, "What the Hell are we looking for?" The leader reported at 15,000 ft that "The object is directly ahead of and above me now, moving about half my speed." When asked for a description he replied, "It appears [to be a? - James] metallic object of tremendous size". At 15,000 ft. the flight leader reported, "I'm still climbing, the object is above and ahead of me moving at about my speed or faster. I'm trying to close in for a better look." This last contact was at about 1515. About 5 minutes afterward, the other two ships in the flight turned back. As they passed over Godman NG 800 reported, "It appears like the reflection of sunlight on an airplane canopy." Shortly afterward, the same pilot and plane took off from Standiford and resumed the search. He went to 33,000 feet one hundred miles South and did not sight anything. I left the Control Tower shortly afterward. [...] [End] Reading this again in the light of recent discussions, can it be confirmed as a legitimate document and accurate translation? I recall asking a question about this statement which was never answered. If Mantell, the flight leader, NG 869, blacked out due to oxygen starvation at circa 20,000 feet, how was the pilot of NG 800 able to resume the search at 33,000 without meeting a similar fate - possibly he was now suitably equipped? A further correspondent from the US, claimed to me: "Regarding the crash of Captain Thomas Mantell's P-51. I would like to make a brief comment, as I personally know someone who was at the Mantell crash site. As is usual, things were and are not as they have been reported. [...] I personally know a retired Air Force officer who was in the tower the day that Mantell crashed. The record of what occurred from that standpoint appear to be accurate. The difference, and it is a major one, is that Mantell's plane did not crash! It was dropped. According to my source, the P-51 was for the most part intact, except the wings were broken. It appeared to those at the scene that the plane had been dropped from about 25 feet. Mantell's body was intact also. His body was impaled on the stick of the P-51. The plane was dropped in a horizontal fashion. [End] Information disclosed by Captain James 'Jim' F. Duessler (in some articles 'Duesler'), a pilot and crash investigator stationed at Godman Field at the time, corroborated the seemingly unusual manner in which the plane had come down. Informed that Mantell's aircraft had crashed approximately 130 miles away, Duessler was required to attend the scene as a member of the accident investigation board. As revealed in the July/august 1996 issue of 'UFO Magazine' (UK), Duessler reportedly confirmed: "On inspecting the aircraft I found that it was very strange how it had come down. The wings and tail section had broken off on impact with the ground and were a short distance from the plane. There was no damage to the surrounding trees and it was obvious that there had been no forward or sideways motion when the plane had come down". "It just appeared to have 'belly flopped' into the clearing. There was very little damage to the fuselage, which was in one piece, and no sign of blood whatsoever in the cockpit. There was no scratching on the body of the fuselage to indicate any forward movement and the propeller blade bore no tell-tale scratch marks to show it had been rotating at the time of impact, and one blade had embedded into the ground. The damage pattern was not consistent with an aircraft of this type crashing at high speed into the ground. Because of the large engine in the nose of the plane, it would come down nose first and hit the ground at that angle. Even if it had managed to glide in, it would have cut a swath through the trees and a channel into the ground. None of these signs were present. All indications were that it had just belly flopped into the clearing. I must admit I found this very strange". Duessler also confirmed that the following day, Dr Loading arrived from Wright Field and "was in charge of what he called the 'Saucer Project'". A further comment was that the Department of Defence statement on the incident included the notation: Certified A True Copy - James F. Duessler; Jr;, Captain, USAF. According to the article, Duessler never made a statement to any authority concerning the incident and served in US Army Air Corps. The contact with Duessler came via Tony Dodd at 'UFO Magazine' and Tony noted he had befriended Duessler, who had retired to England, during the previous 2-3 years. Known to sadly have a terminal illness, Duessler wished to now to reveal his story. Duessler died on 30 October 1996. Duessler's claims also featured in the May/June 1997 issue of 'UFO Magazine', this time reporting the transcript of the interview he gave to 'Sightings', shortly before his death. [END] There were critical objections to the above and those must be emphasised - hopefully that will be possible. James Easton. E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk www.ufoworld.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 7 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Salvaille From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 22:07:20 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 08:38:03 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Salvaille >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 18:09:33 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 18:12:42 -0700 (PDT) >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> >>Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:45:43 +0100 >>>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >>>Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Censored copies of two U.S. documents were found among Wilbert >B. Smith's papers at the University of Ottawa archives. Since >these two documents may already be known to you and other >researchers, a few quotes should answer your questions about >communications with aliens in orbiting craft and will also >enable you to determine who the major figures involved were at >the time (for some reason, a name would be crossed out on one >document but not the other). >Mac, if you are still interested, I can share with you many of >the other and lesser known documents that I made copies of while >at the UofO's UFO archives. Hello Nick, Count me in. Is it possible for you to send the documentation you have? Please state your fee. Regards, Serge
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 7 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Clark From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 21:01:30 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 08:36:51 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Clark >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 12:12:06 -0500 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >The trashing of the reputations of dead (and living) ufologists >seems to be a blood sport among some. It's an appalling practice >especially when applied to the innocent. And Smith was an >innocent in both senses of the term. >Jerry Clark Jerry, Surely you're not asserting that Wilbur Smith wasn't clearly batty in regard to _some_ of his UFO assertions and claims? Does pointing out same make me (or anyone else) a character assassinator? I think not. Dennis Stacy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 7 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Goldsmith From: Rick Goldsmith <rgoldsm@synapse.net> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 22:47:58 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 08:39:59 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Goldsmith >Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 18:12:42 -0700 (PDT) >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:45:43 +0100 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Nick wrote: >>>Wilbert shared much secret UFO information with his high level >>>U.S. counterparts, including flying saucer hardware and even >>>alleged communications with alien commanders of certain orbiting >>>E.T. spacecraft, the details of which can still be found at the >>>University of Otttawa archives where many of Wilbert's papers >>>and other UFO documents are kept. >>I think they're all certainly comparative - Wilbert, >>Roswell, >>MJ-12, Cors.. nah, let's not go there. >Communication with orbiting craft? This is indeed a rather >explosive claim, and I don't think it's mentioned in the MJ-12 >documents. Is there a way to look into this other than going to >the University of Ottawa...? Explosive indeed! I've read this & that about Wilbert Smith over the years but this little nugget must have slipped past me. At the very least, it would prove to be an interesting and entertaining read. With this in mind I offer the following; I live a stones throw from Ottawa "U". I will gladly stroll across the bridge and see what I can find there. Nick will have to give me instructions on what the documents are and how to go about getting at them. It may take me a couple of weeks to do it, especially if access can only be obtained during business hours. Hopefully, I will be able to make some scans and share what information I can with the list. Don't expect a complete history of the man himself ("he's a complicated man, noone understands him but his woman....") but I'll dig up what I can about the reference to communication with aliens. I hope that Nick does not take this as a sarcastic challenge of his sources or opinions, Personally, I think that Wilbert Smith is one of the unsung heroes of UFO lore in spite of his eccentricities. I am happy to see his name coming up more and more in discussions as of late and I wouldn't put it past him if he did have a talk with space aliens. Oh wait... he's not an American, what could I have been thinking? ; ) Cheers, Rick Goldsmith
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 7 UpDate: Mars - For Your Enjoyement From: Dan Geib <DanGeib@ArtGomperz.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 20:13:25 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 08:43:12 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Mars - For Your Enjoyement I found this entertaining Remember the Bill Cooper and John Lear Stories of Alien Bases, Bases on Mars and the moon? There appears to be a rebirth of this UFO Folklore at www.earth-today.com This site has a video of alleged landing on Mars from inside a flying saucer As I watched the video I had to wonder why the technology that 'advanced' from interstellar space beings was using what appears to be 1.5 inch magnetic tape reels ? I wondered: Wouldn't the Aliens have better technology than IBM at that time? ;o) Anyway, I found it entertaining and thought I would just pass it along Dan UFO Folklore ! http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/framemst.html FREE Music Win PRIZES Art Gomperz.com http://www.artGomperz.com/ Dan's Magic in Michigan ! Dantronix ! http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/testwave.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 7 UpDate: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published in Science Mag From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 21:27:32 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 08:41:30 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published in Science Mag On June 28, Robert Clark posted to the sci.astro newsgroup claiming that Dr. Michael Malin made an incredible misstatement in the article he wrote for Science Magazine on his discovery of evidence of liquid water on Mars. I downloaded the article from the sciencemag.org website to see for myself. Malin really did claim that Mars' atmospheric pressure was usually below the triple point of water -- in the very first sentence of the article, which is: "Present-day Mars is a desert world on which liquid water is not likely to be found at the surface, because average temperatures are below 273 K and atmospheric pressures are at or below water�s triple-point vapor pressure of 6.1 mbar." The pressures measured by the Viking and Pathfinder landers in fact seldom if ever fell below the triple-point. Malin's statement is just plain wrong. I've seen the same false assertion in the press, but I really didn't expect to see it in Science Magazine, and made by a man who's spent much of his professional life studying Mars. This is no trivial mistake, either; its implications are enormous. Below the triple-point pressure, liquid water cannot exist without either boiling or freezing, and so cannot be availabe to sustain life. The difference between the 6 mb cited by Malin and the ranges of pressures actually measured by the Viking and Pathfinder landers (about 6.5 mb to 10 mb) is small in quantitative terms. But for the prospects of life on the surface of Mars, an atmospheric pressure just below the triple-point is similar to a broad jump of 9 feet 11 inches over a ravine that's 10 feet wide and 100 feet deep. With no reasonable prospect for the discovery of life on Mars, there has been very little to sustain the level of public interest necessary to support any coherent long-range Mars program. The cumulative damage that has been done by the promotion of this triple-point fallacy over the years to the progress of the human exploration of Mars could well be incalculably greater than the cost of all the failed Mars probes combined. The author of the sci.astro post, Clark, concluded his post with: "Consider: scientists should be interested in getting out the true facts and data collected by their instruments. Yet they routinely ignored the (in my view) quite important fact returned by those instruments that the pressure on Mars was within the range to permit liquid water. Why? The only conclusion I can draw is that the idea of liquid water on Mars was an unpalatable idea - and the only reason I can think of for that was that this would have allowed the possibility of life on Mars." That's also the only conclusion I can draw.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 7 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 23:36:13 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 08:50:47 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Mortellaro >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 14:57:39 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >First, it would be much more appropriate (and demonstrate a >little character) if you were to address me directly. When I >have something to say to you, I _always_ say it to your face. >Show me the same respect. OK, John, but this will be the exception, not the rule. I showed a great amount of respect to you in the past. Still do, to your face and in any other venue. It has not been reciprocated, which is why I stay away from direct contact. This is my choice. >In regard to your remark above: >a. I have not been associated with Budd Hopkins for more than a >year. I was, in point of fact, very 'public' about severing the >connection. Why would you or anybody else associate me or the >topic of this thread with Budd? I haven't mentioned his name >once anywhere. Anyone who makes such an "immediate" association >(which so far seems to be you alone) is jumping to wild >conclusions and more importantly, _missing the point_ >completely. Would have been better if you stated who was not guilty. Truth be known, whether you know it, like it or not, you are associated with Budd. As was I. If you think it's me alone, you are quite mistaken. But as in your post, the names of the guilty and the innocent shall remain private, which in this case, is where they belong. >b. Instead of making an actual 'contribution' to this thread you >choose to divert attention away to 'non-issues.' Try to >concentrate and keep your attention focused on what is currently >on the table before us please. I find it astounding that you >have nothing more to offer here than this 'out of place' concern >about the "pall that has been cast" upon innocent researchers. I >have put my ass on the line in order to warn people about a >couple of unscrupulous researchers (in order to protect _you_ >and them from the kind of harm that has already befallen 140 >others) and all you have to offer is, 'Oh, the pall that is >being cast on poor innocent researchers.' And, "Gee whiz, > >if it was me, I'd associate this mess with the researcher that John >was once associated with.' > >What color is the sky in your world Morty? Same as in yours, John. But what you see is not what I see. See? Which is why we don't see eye to eye. I'd not have been critical if I had not received a goodly number of mails from people who thought you were referring to someone in particular. >If anyone "cast a pall"upon anyone, it was the researcher(s) >themselves. I didn't go out and sell anybody else's personal >files, that was one or more of them. I'm only reporting about >it. Why don't you try to _help me_ instead of throwing gravel >under my feet. I've got a heavy load on my back and you're busy >babbling about this and that 'unrelated' issues. (And 'off the >wall' I might add!) In your opinion. In mine, I would rather have come out with the last post first, not your first post last. That's my opinion, to which I am entitled. As for my help, you got that in spades in the past and chose to reject it. Which is your choice. Now, all our dirty laundry on this list. From my side, it will be the last time. God willing and the comet don't hit. Just remember, I did not make this personal, nor did I bring up our personal problems. >Jimmy, this is precisely why I severed ties with you last year! >You continually screwed me while telling me how much you loved >me. It was just a little too 'schizzy' a relationship for me. >I'm not into S&M. Some people will look you in the eye and tell >you that it's raining while they urinate in your face. It seems >that I can't get away from that yellow downpour you keep raining >down on my head. If you can't do anything else, can you try to >stick to the topic at hand? Again, John, your opinion. Funny (strange funny) but I share your opinion. We seem to agree. The only difference is who pissed on whom. Naturally, I do not agree with your opinion. And the reason I did not respond to you directly is simple. I knew you would take the dirty laundry out and share it with the folks here on UpDates. It seems to be your style. I have no problem with a debate. But you fail to understand the other point of view ... that is to say, mine. And you are just not prepared to drop what I consider a level of paranoia over my and some other nice folks being enemies. I reject your opinion of me. I do not reject your focus. I was always in admiration of it. The anger and angst you demonstrate in this post is obvious. You also seem to think this was a personal and vindictive attack on you. Not. But it was a criticism of your method in this case. >c. I put out the "What If" posting in order to 'alert' other >abductees that certain unethical practices existed. (that they >may not have been aware of) And,(at first) without mentioning >names because I didn't want to hurt any legal efforts by the >injured parties that were more directly involved. Last but not >least, I wrote the "What If" because I can't afford lawyers if I >get sued. > >If you have any problems with my 'style' or the 'method' I chose >to inform my brothers and sisters, then say it to my face. Don't >'hide it' in a response to Liz or anyone else. I responded >directly to you, you can show me the same courtesy. I've just done that. And you drag out personal things as if they were pertinant to the issue. They are not. And they do not belong here on UpDates. >>Perhaps it would have been better if the scenario were more >>specific in the negative. Meaning, "This scenario does not >>apply to So and So!" People are going to assume. Even if >>it makes as ass out of themselves. Even if they are wrong. > >* Megan's Law; as a result of the brutalization and murder of a >young girl named 'Megan' a law was passed in the state of New >Jersey requiring that the names of repeat/convicted sex >offenders be publicly posted at the time of their release. They >are also required to 'register' themselves with the local police >precinct where they plan to reside. The idea being that if folks >are aware of these guys they can take appropriate precautions to >protect their children. Please, John. Spare me the analogy. I agree with your expose'. But I do not agree with the general indictment. My personal choice (and I said that) would have been to spare the innocent. >Using "Megan's Law" as an example: >Wouldn't it be something if they required the names of all those >who are _not_ sex offenders to be published as well! Jim, do you >see how 'off-target,' impractical, and almost convoluted your >thinking is on this issue. Instead of focusing on the topic, >you're off on a trip! As a self professed abductee you should be >directing your anger and your ire at the people who really >started all this. Put down your pop gun. I'm only the messenger! >>So what exactly is the warning about? >Again I ask; What color is the sky in your world? Since I resigned from IF for personal reasons which you know well, but for the list, it was to take all the time and money I have to attend to the needs of my long suffering wife, disabled with MS. Yes, there were other reasons but these are irrelevant to this venue. But they had to do with you, John. And not in a negative way, either. >>Presumably, that anyone >>planning to spill their guts, better ask for a statement in >>writing that their privacy is guaranteed. >And your problem with that is,...? Not a thing. >>But in the process verbal, there is the danger of assumed guilt. >>And that part of the scenario bothers me. Everyone is guilty. >>Even the innocent. >Huh? Wha...? Give your statement a re-read Jimbo and if it still >makes sense to you as a relevant remark pertaining to the >subject at hand (which, in case you forgot, has to do with the >sale of private abductee files for cash,) could you please >explain your remark to me. I'm not that bright Jim, I don't get >it. What does it mean? Truth. You are not that bright. You are a lot brighter. You know exactly what I mean. I mean what I said. If it is any help, the "process verbal" is the dangerous way to the truth. >>As do any personal statements aimed at sending a message to the >>offending party. That'd be me. Even followed by the expression, >>"LOL!" > >>I am not laughing. Online or off. Anyone who is should consider >>looking up their sleeves to see if one happens to be occupied by >>a set of laughing lips. > >Yep, that was me talking alright. And unlike yourself, I said it >directly to your face in response to your post. I stand by my >original remark. Telling _you_ anything is just like taking it >to the media! And yes, I find it amusing/funny. So I laughed. >BTW, I looked, there are no "laughing lips" up my sleeve, >whatever the hell that means. It means some folks laugh up their sleeves, John. Again, you make and take everything way too personal. It's OK to disagree with someone. Normally. See what I mean, John. Debating with you is not really possible for me. Before too long, you drag out all the scheiss which does not belong in the public venue. You are demonstrating what kept me away in the first place. >Oh Morty, what a freaking waste of time man. Let me ask you >something _directly_; Do you have anything relevant or >meaningful to say in regard to this business of abductee files >being sold for cash? If not, why don't you send me all these >"concerns" of yours privately so that attention is not diverted >away from this important business. This issue needs to be looked >at and addressed. Unless you have something of substance to >contribute please consider taking it 'off list.' This is too >important to trivialize. Actually I have nothing to say except what I've already said. The problem is a serious one. One which should be addressed. As you did? No. Not in my opinion. Rather, your last post was the one which should, in my opinion, have been posted. That was the one with the names. No doubt in anyone's mind then. >>And friends never implicate one the other when >>there is an opportunity to avoid doing so. >I am no friend of anyone who would hurt or abuse an abductee. >You see, I _am_ an abductee. What happens to anyone of them, >happens to me. (Can happen to me) When I put my ass on the line >like this it would be really nice to get some support (at the >very least) from my fellow abductees. Instead, I have one >abductee from this list providing MUFON with copies of all my >postings and demanding answers, and I'm sitting here responding >to notes from you about completely unrelated non-issues. One >abductee is busy trying 'set me up' for a lawsuit while another >is taking me for a joyride to nowhere. I suggest you do what you once told us all you do. Hit the "delete" button and pass. Errol is nice enough to show the name of the poster in the heading title. Use it on me any time and you will no longer have to waste your time on me. I guess it won't matter anyway. I give up with any attempt to engage in a debate with you. The arguments you choose to use in defence of your position, at least with me, turns out to be personal. It ain't. >I haven't heard from a single researcher, journalist or person >of any authority in ufology about actively investigating this >completely ority in ufology about actively investigating this >completely disturbing and nasty business. No one. Instead, I'm >sitting here responding to these pissant notes from you. Respectfully, _Ufology_ does not suck. It's only the lies, the personal attacks and the condemnation of people dead and alive on this list and others which make it difficult to take. At least for me. Life is not like that. It's not personal except when you take it that way or make it so. Congratulations. Oh, not to you, John Velez. But to me. For breaking my personal word not to comment on anything you have to say. Not all is lost. I think this series of posts shows who is willing to sling a hash of things which should be personal in order to demostrate how righteous one is. You are not the only abductee. Some were treated far worse in the process verbal than you. Me? I'm just a stupid engineer. "I got nothin (more) to say. 'Specially about whatever was." * *Robert Zimmerman. >I'll say it again... UFOLOGY SUCKS! >John Velez, Getting more and more disgusted by the minute I've been disgusted for a long time. Notice how many times I've responded to any of your posts? This is the first. Not in a series I might add. Listen, John. Your anger and frustration with me is private. But when it comes to the substance of a critique on some thing or other you write, to which I do not agree, I chose the method which I suspected would have been used by you. Write to a third party so that our sh*t does not have to be shared online. It's the best way. I do not call for a truce, just a cessation of further communication on this or any other venue. I volunteer to start now. And I do apologize, not for criticism of you, but for having the level of pig headed stupidity not to keep this one private. Mia culpa. Not everything is lost however. I disagreed with your methods. You started hanging our stupid little personal problems on the line for all to see. Which is why I chose to leave your company in the first place. Jim Mortellaro
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 7 UpDate: Selling Files [Was Re: Joe Simonton And ...] - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 02:12:43 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 08:54:41 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Selling Files [Was Re: Joe Simonton And ...] - Hammond >Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 01:58:36 +0200 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>? >Subject: Re: Joe Simonton And Hypnotic Suggestion? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >On a more serious note, I think John Velez's warning to be a >very important and disturbing matter. John and Liz, I am moved >by your heartfelt sincerity. I too have never heard of a warning >hurting anyone. And if idle minds want to spin out over who is >the guilty party, emotionally and mentally accusing the one >abduction researcher of the bunch that you never liked, go >ahead, it's your weirdness. Reserve judgement until the facts >are in front of your face. But once again, heeding a warning >never hurt anyone. Dear Josh: Thanks for mentioning this issue! It almost seems to have fallen into a black hole for some people. Regardless of one's stand on this issue, skeptic or beleiver, it should put a chill into anyone that someone's medical records have been sold in this manner. I doubt anyone want's others, Insurance Companies, loan officers, etc. to be able to get ahold of one's confidential records simply by purchasing them. Whether it's "Abduction" or flat feet, this is supposed to be confidential information. In the information age it gets increasingly difficult to maintain one's privacy. As you say, now is not the time to be wasting ourselves arguing over which researcher, which buyer, etc. The issue at hand is and should be the right to privacy so rapidly dwindling in our Society. As you say, a warning never hurt anyone. And a set of ethical guidlines for use when working with "Abductees" wouldn't hurt anyone either. No ethical person in the field should object to the drawing up of such guidelines. If they truly have the best interests of those they work with at heart, they should have no problem signing and living up to such a document, either. I'm calling on those in the field who truly care to get together as rapidly as possible and draw-up a set of guidelines to protect all of Us as quickly as they possibly can. We have been called a lot of terrible names, but we've been called some nice ones too. If we are any of those nice things, we deserve to be treated as such. We deserve, given what we have suffered all of our lives, to expect a show of real caring and support from those who have used our lives in their books, lectures and films, to be protected as much as possible. No one can protect us from "Them", but you can protect us from "You". Yours, Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 7 UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Laajala From: Minna Laajala - UFO-Finland <ufofinland@saunalahti.fi> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 09:14:31 +0300 Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 08:56:51 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Laajala >Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 17:25:40 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter >To: updates@sympatico.ca <snip> >I now have confirmation (from three reliable sources) that this >transaction (abductee files for cash) took place. My 'sources' >are; one of the abductees whose file was sold, a major (and well >known) abduction researcher/author, and now Walt Andrus, the >'Head' of MUFON. >As far as I'm concerned it's 'official.' Abduction experiencers >should look out for _themselves_ before reporting to anyone. >It's a matter of self-defense. >---------------------------------------------------------------- >To All Abductees: Make absolutely sure to secure written and >signed assurances that your privacy and anonymity will be >protected and maintained when contacting -any- abduction >researcher. An honest and ethical researcher will have no >problem providing and signing that type of an agreement. >---------------------------------------------------------------- >John Velez, Sickened over this. Hi John and All! I quess I do understand the feelings that John - and not doubtfully many other abductees and non-abductees - has felt after this kind of reveal. To avoid this kind of happenings, I think there are many ways to function, at least these: 1) Who has anything to hide and don�t want the secret to be revealed or used, won�t make a statement to any researcher. 2) Who has anything to hide (or has secrets, but don�t care if they are revealed) makes a statement by knowing someone might use it in the way the experiencer won�t like. 3) The experiencers sell themselves their own experiences. 4) Like John said: experiencer makes so hard and legal deal with the researcher, that he/she won�t have any chance to sell or to use the case without the permission of the experiencer. There�s still a chance this reveal is only a mix with lies, misunderstandings, and so far only a rumour, so I wouldn�t draw any conclusions yet. It doesn�t mean I would consider this kind of act as fair or right. In health-care system to all staff working with persons, that may be called patients is forbidden to reveal any information about them. They sign a promise while they start their employment relationship. The consequences of revealing any information might be jail or fine (= in Finland). The UFO researchers aren�t working for a health-care system or under any controll. The global ufo-research-system sometimes seems to bloom like a field; there`s weeds and flowers side by side, and they keep growing together like a jungle. But even we want to trample the weeds away we shouldn�t let the despair and hate to blind us so badly we will tramle the flowers, too. With regards from Minna L UFO-Finland http://www.ufofinland.net
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 7 UpDate: Virginia Charged With Ignoring Alien Threat From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 08:39:39 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 08:59:18 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Virginia Charged With Ignoring Alien Threat Virginia Charged With Ignoring Alien Threat - Update Source: APBnews.com [which specializes in crimes and the criminal justice system and did the best coverage of Bryant's initiative.] URL: http://www.apbnews.com/newscenter/breakingnews/2000/06/19/ufo0619_01.html Stig *** Man Fights Space Invaders in Court Charges Virginia With Ignoring Alien Threat June 19, 2000 By James Gordon Meek ALEXANDRIA, Va. (APBnews.com) -- Gov. James Gilmore III isn't doing enough to repel alien invaders from outer space. At least that's what a local activist alleges in a lawsuit claiming Gilmore has failed in his constitutional duty to protect the commonwealth from attack, in this case extraterrestrial. Larry Bryant, 62, filed the suit in state court here on June 5, the day before the anniversary of the Allies' D-Day invasion during World War II. Bryant filed on behalf of all people of the planet Earth and also Citizens Against UFO Secrecy (CAUS), a sky-watching group based in Scottsdale, Ariz. Related Stories: Cops Claim Close Encounter With UFO Aliens? No, a Hacker Shut Down Area 51 Site When Police Meet the Paranormal ... The Real X-Files Related Link: Citizens Against UFO Secrecy The lawsuit asks Gilmore to take action to prevent attacks and abductions by space aliens, by convening a special grand jury to collect and analyze evidence of "clandestine" UFO landings and abductions of Virginians. 'Floating flying triangles' Bryant also wants Gilmore to further protect the commonwealth by forming a state police task force and a Virginia Army National Guard "Quick Reaction Force" to fight hostile extraterrestrials that might wage war against the citizenry. "In the last several years there have been firsthand accounts of black, dark, silently floating flying triangles of mysterious origin and purpose, sometimes scaring the natives, threatening the observer because of their mysteriousness," Bryant told APBnews.com. Bryant alleged these unknown and "obviously technologically alien craft" have been invading federal and state airspace at will, and said Gilmore has not either explained the UFO incidents or put a stop to them. "To put your head in the sand as a governor," he said, "to my mind, that's dereliction of duty." He said his lawsuit compels Gilmore to acknowledge the "invasion" or repel it with all available force. Governor not commenting Randy Davis, a spokesman for the Virginia Attorney General's Office, said state attorneys are reviewing the lawsuit carefully and are taking the allegations seriously, but the office is not yet prepared to respond or comment on the case publicly. Bryant, who is not a lawyer, said he was unsuccessful at convincing law firms he contacted to take his case. On his Web site he wrote, tongue in cheek, that he has "filed more UFO-related lawsuits in federal court than has anyone else in the entire universe" -- nine by his count. The suit filed in Alexandria is the first he has offered to a state court. In a telephone interview, the retired civilian technical writer for the U.S. Army admitted some might be skeptical of his belief that UFOs are invading Virginia, but he's gotten used to jibes during 40-plus years of UFO research. "I've got a thick hide," he said. Invasion isn't funny Bryant insisted there is no humor in the alleged invasion itself, and detailed what he said were actual punishable crimes committed by space aliens. The special grand jury and state police task force are necessary, he said, because witnesses are being physically abused, impregnated and brainwashed during abductions. If true, such things would be violations of criminal statutes, Bryant said. But are extraterrestrial beings subject to U.S. law? Maybe not, Bryant conceded, but "space law" provisions within international law could possibly apply, though it has traditionally only applied to human activity in beyond the earth's atmosphere. Bryant said, "These questions might come out in the deliberations of the case, who knows?" * James Gordon Meek is an APBnews.com editor (james.meek@apbnews.com). �Copyright 2000 APB Multimedia Inc. All rights reserved.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 7 UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 03:56:24 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 09:08:31 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Velez >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 12:13:41 -0500 (CDT) >From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA> >Subject: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 17:25:40 -0400 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Hello All, >>I spoke with Walt Andrus (who is the head of MUFON) today. >>(Weds. 7/5/00) To make a long story short, he _confirmed_ the >>fact that John Carpenter did in fact _sell_abductee_files to >>Robert Bigelow for an undisclosed amount of money. ><snip> >>To All Abductees: Make absolutely sure to secure written and >>signed assurances that your privacy and anonymity will be >>protected and maintained when contacting -any- abduction >>researcher. An honest and ethical researcher will have no >>problem providing and signing that type of an agreement. ><snip again> >>This whole thing has made me sick to my stomach. >>Ufology Sucks Bigtime! Period. It's a disorganized, unregulated, >>sh*tty mess. This most recent example is the direct result of >>_dis-unity,_ a lack of communication, and basic agreements among >>participating groups and individuals. Ufology needs a 'review >>board' of some kind. Until an "Umbrella" organization with 'real >>teeth' is formed and put into place, incidents such as this one >>involving the selling of private files will continue to happen. >>_If_ there are no stops in place to prevent it. >I've been reading all this saga with some curiosity and feel I >should mention a few things. >First of all, a proposal to theoretically prevent such abuse and >problems was discussed several years ago by excellent (and >therefore ignored) abduction researcher David Gotlib. He drafted >a "Code of Ethics" for abduction researchers, and it was >distributed in the Bulletin of Anomalous Experience (BAE) and >brought out at the infamous MIT conference. The problem is that >_no_one_ has adopted his proposed guidelines and ethical >standards because it seems that no researcher wants to answer to >anyone other than him - or herself. Ufology has no peer group >per se. >If anyone has a copy of this code online, it might be a good >idea to post it here and start some reasonable discussion with >the goal of having at least list members consider adhering to >it. >Second, a similar code was drafted many years ago for ufology in >general, but also ignored. >The trouble is that each abduction researcher has a different >approach and methodology so that standards are very difficult to >agree upon. Even something as innocuous as a set of guidelines >for an abductee support group will be difficult to standardize >until the ufological community gets its act together. (I printed >a set of such guidelines in my book Abductions and Aliens, in >case anyone is interested.) >This even harks back to an earlier argument (sorry, thread) here >about "Who speaks for ufology?" There is no one governor or >spokesperson for ufology at this point, let alone a governing or >review body. There are some who _think_ they are, but none who >are universally accepted as such. We need a benevolent dictator >in ufology, perhaps. I nominate Errol. >-- >Nobody in particular Hi Chris, Finally, a breath of fresh air! The end result of all this should be a new awareness on the part of witnesses and experiencers regarding the protection of their own rights to privacy and anonymity. Your suggestions along with some comments I received from the Texas Sasquatch (Dennis Stacy) constitute some of the 'few' practical suggestions to come out of all this. Allow me to quote a passage from a personal note that Dennis Stacy sent to me. What is the best possible outcome of this situation? I would suggest that it is an ultimate meeting of minds between experiencers and investigators that results in an agreed upon document, or release, to be signed and notarized by both parties. Said document should protect both parties. A clause should say that nothing evolving from the investigation, hypnosis sessions and/or transcripts included, can be made public without the experiencer's express written permission. Another clause should say something to the effect that, while I realize the potential of negative psychological (and possible physical) effects involved in the procedure(s) I am about to agree to, I willingly accept such consequences and hereby absolve my interlocutor/investigator of same. Yes, of course a no doubt money-grubbing attorney would have to be involved at some point. ---------------------------------------------------------------- I am in complete agreement with both of you. If nothing else, some kind of protections need to be put in place so that there isn't any "repeat performance" of this unsavory business in the future. I would also like to take this opportunity to bow out of this mess as 'gracefully' as I can. I had nothing to do with it other than stumbling across it in my travels. I checked it out as thoroughly as I could, and then I reported it. Period. End of story. What people do with the information is now entirely up to them. If someone wishes to investigate then fine, go for it. If no one cares and they choose to ignore that's fine too. I did what I had to do and what I believed to be the 'right thing.' My work is done here. There is now at least a healthy _public_ dialog going on regarding issues of privacy and ethics. That is all I had hoped for. For me, this was about _protecting innocent people,_ not pointing fingers or going after individuals. Them, and judgement upon them, I leave to the Laws of Karma. According to Walt Andrus MUFON has launched an investigation into this matter and I'll just sit back with everybody else and await the findings of that report. Dianne Lovett: You can stop sending copies of my postings to MUFON and to Robert Bigelow. They _know_ already. I forwarded copies to them the day I posted it. I never do anything behind someone's back. Here's a novel idea! How about _asking me_ if it's ok to use my posting to contact these folks yourself, or better yet, you could have asked if your own efforts would conflict or duplicate with whatever efforts/investigating I was already engaged in. Not only do you use my posts as an "intro" with these people without asking me, but you step all over my toes with complete disregard. It didn't happen, but... you could have screwed up something important that I was following up on by running in and "alerting" the very people I was investigating. Like going to a dope dealer that is under observation and saying to him: "By the way, the Police are checking you out, are you really engaged in the selling of illegal drugs?" How much information do you expect to get that way? "Oh yes officer, the drugs are under the sofa. Will you be taking me away now?" Fortunately, your own personal campaign did not interfere with the one I was conducting. I guess I can forget about talking to Bigelow, as you have already interjected yourself into the situation and taken care of it. I wouldn't get beans out of him now. Thanks to you he's now "on alert" about the issue. BTW, in spite of what Bigelow may have told you regarding how many files had 'blacked out names and addresses', I have info from one of the _principles_ involved to the contrary. You really should have coordinated with me/talked to me, before running off copies of my posts and sending them to MUFON and Bigelow along with _demands_ for answers. I don't operate that way myself. If it was the other way around, I would _never_ have done something like that to you. It would be tantamount to setting you up as a target. I'm officially out of this. You can individually do with it (the info I provided) whatever you wish. At least, now you _all_ know! Chris, you signed off: Nobody in particular Don't worry man, you'll always be a 'somebody' to me. :) Regards to all, I will continue to follow these posts and any further developments with interest. But strictly from the side lines as a spectator. ;) "Paul Revere" is now retired! <LOL> John Velez -- ______________________________________________ A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center - www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm jvif@spacelab.net "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ______________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 7 UpDate: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 01:02:41 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 09:12:26 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 - Hatch >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 15:42:16 +0100 >From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> >Subject: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 >To: updates@sympatico.ca <snip> >Italian Air Force Attend San Marino UFO Conference >Last month I attended a fascinating UFO conference in San >Marino, organised by Dr Roberto Pinotti. There was an absolutely >massive line-up of speakers <snip> >... There was even a rare public appearance by Desmond >Leslie, who wrote Flying Saucers Have Landed with contactee >George Adamski. <snip> Hello Georgina: Desmond Leslie! That is interesting. Did Leslie have anything to say about his present perception of Adamski and/or his contactee claims? Does he accept the Adamski story now, or has he come to distance himself from all this over so many years? I would bet Leslie is asked about this all the time. I assume he must have accepted Adamski's claims in the 1950s; tacitly enough at least to co-author a book. Best wishes - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 7 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 08:19:32 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 23:42:53 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Clark >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 21:01:30 -0500 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Clark >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 12:12:06 -0500 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Dennis, >>The trashing of the reputations of dead (and living) ufologists >>seems to be a blood sport among some. It's an appalling practice >>especially when applied to the innocent. And Smith was an >>innocent in both senses of the term. >Surely you're not asserting that Wilbur Smith wasn't clearly >batty in regard to _some_ of his UFO assertions and claims? My word. Didn't you read what I said? The point was not whether Wilbert (not Wilbur) Smith harbored some strange beliefs -- he certainly did (please read my long entry on him in The UFO Encyclopedia) -- but whether he was a liar and hoaxer, which he certainly was not. >Does pointing out same make me (or anyone else) a character >assassinator? >I think not. Congratulations. You have now flattened a strawman. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 7 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Kaeser From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 09:24:15 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 23:45:52 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Kaeser >Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 23:58:06 -0400 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Dear John, Jim, Robert, Diane et al: >Don't know where anyone got the idea that I'd rather _not_ know, >nothing could be further from the truth! It may have made me >fearful for a while, but I got over that soon enough. I think >the Abduction Community and UFO Community and the Man Comunity >were done a truly great service by John bringing this to light. >The only people hurt at this point are the 140 poor helpless >one's who were taken in by this charlatan! All- Before we go too far in calling people names, I think that it's important that the full story be disclosed. The researcher involved here is perhaps one of the most highly trained and qualified in the field, unlike some of the more prominent researchers who have no actual medical/psychiatric training. As a trained individual, I believe that he probably has taken steps to protect the identity of those involved, but no one really knows since we're debating this without any real idea of exactly what information has been sold. The rights and privacy of those being counseled should be protected, but it should be noted that such a legal requirement may only be in place for those who seek help from licensed practitioners. They can be held legally responsible for their actions, and this would apply to the researcher in question above. If those rights have been violated by this sale of information, those 140 individuals would certainly have legal recourse. Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 7 UpDate: Further Chupacabras Activity in Argentina From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 10:21:43 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 23:48:36 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Further Chupacabras Activity in Argentina Dear Friends, There appears to be no letup in Argentina's Chupacabras crisis, which becomes more and more intriguing with each report.. Similarities to the creature's behavior in the Puerto Rican scenario of 1995-96 are starting to appear: the strange perforations on the cats (a change of dietary habits also noted 5 years ago), the claim that the entity "levitates" rather than "flies", the nauseating, overpowering odor that sickened a UFO researcher and a police woman in 1996. Due to problems in the source message, [..] indicates the gaps in the text I've been unable to reconstruct. Scott Corrales Institute of Hispanic Ufology www.inexplicata.com SOURCE: La Estrella del Loa (newspaper) DATE: June 29, 2000 FIVE CATS FOUND DEAD THE SAME DAY. **All of the felines presented the same traces: a large hole above the heart through which all of their blood was extracted.*** This is becoming a strange place. It has all of the geographic qualifications for turning into a ghost town. Its nearly abandoned streets contain the memory of the deserted salt mines. No one can offer an explanation--its residents are frightened and would rather keep quiet about the information in their posession so that "no one will think that we're crazy", they say, turning around to avoid the cold breeze. Slowly they reach the victim--the first one this morning. The residents approach fearfully, not wanting to be the town's laughing stock. When they see the carcass of the dead cat, they are amazed "This cat is different. It has the same hole, but its entrails are exposed. It as if the Chupacabras was about to eat it when it took off," suggests another neighbor who doesn't want to give his name. As the day progresses, more cats turn up--all of them with the same orifice. When it was just one victim, it was possible to think in terms of a sadist. When the victims amounted to five, there were little doubts among the population. "It's a supernatural creature, because there isn't an animal, much less a human being, able to inflict such a wound [...]. An examination provided shocking details: the cat had an orifice 5 cm. in dameter through which its right lung had been extracted along with half of its left lung. Furthermore, all of its blood had been drained. With the sun at its highest, it seemes as if people were melting on the streets of Maria Elena as another phone call reported of yet another dead feline. In vehicles provided by the commune, we headed for the site, but local residents had already beaten us to it. Upon our arrival, some of them departed while others approached us. Fear was no longer an issue with them " For several nights now I've felt the presence of something strange", said one of them. **It doesn't fly...it levitates** Last weekend (23rd to 25th of June, 2000) residents of the area felt strange noises in the vicinity of a Maria Elena discotheque. Upon going outside, they came across the so-called Chupacabras [...] All of these events have been accompanies by the apparition of strange vehicles in an area which has always been sensitive the UFO subject, given that the salt mine's office is located in what has become known as [...]. The only thing that local residents hope for is that someone will assume responsibility for all these goings-on and order a serious investigation that will protect the population against the possibility that this [...]. This at least is the position held by the Cultural Attache of Maria Elena Municipality, Mr. Jaime Guerra, who is also startled by the events. Guerra cautions "I hope that in coming days there will be an official statement on what is happening in the Pampa for the sake of the population and so that the community will know once and for all what this Chupacabras happens to be." CHUPACABRA SPREADS TERROR IN MARIA ELENA (Daro Vergara and Ral Vega on special assignment). **Local residents are concerned as are workers. No official statement produced by civilian authorities or the police** Following the death of several animals--mainly cats--in similar circumstances and with identical features, lacking blood and relieved of their internal organs, and following the sighting of a strange creature in Las Piscinas [...] One of the witnesses who decided to come forward with his testimony was laborer Jorge Cariaga Gonzalez, who told this newspaper that last saturday night, he got out of his car after having seen something strange. He was then able to confirm, as corroborated by his companion, that a large animal was jumping over a nearby fence "like a monkey". The troubled laborer then began smelling a nauseating odor which has become characteristic among those who claim to have seen the Chupacabras. "It's something similar to a decomposing animal," he stated, indicating that he felt an overpowering urge to flee when at a distance of 8 meters, the beast uttered a scream that Cariaga defined as a mixture of [...] Thanks to the contributions of certain persons interested in knowing the truth about what is going on, a veterinarian perfomed an autopsy on one of the dead cats. His analysis proved that the death of these animals was caused by no known phenomenon or animal attack. Whatver attacked the felines employed an unknown method, sucking the blood and selecting certain organs. In the first case, the digestive and urinary systems were missing. # # # # Translation (c) 2000. Institute of Hispanic Ufology. Special thanks to Lucy Guzman and Quique Mario of CEUFO
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 7 UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Lovett From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 12:02:05 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 23:51:30 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Lovett >Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 03:56:24 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter >To: updates@sympatico.ca <snip> >Dianne Lovett: You can stop sending copies of my postings to >MUFON and to Robert Bigelow. They _know_ already. I forwarded >copies to them the day I posted it. I never do anything behind >someone's back. >Here's a novel idea! How about _asking me_ if it's ok to use my >posting to contact these folks yourself, or better yet, you >could have asked if your own efforts would conflict or duplicate >with whatever efforts/investigating I was already engaged in. >Not only do you use my posts as an "intro" with these people >without asking me, but you step all over my toes with complete >disregard. >It didn't happen, but... you could have screwed up something >important that I was following up on by running in and >"alerting" the very people I was investigating. Like going to a >dope dealer that is under observation and saying to him: "By the >way, the Police are checking you out, are you really engaged in >the selling of illegal drugs?" >How much information do you expect to get that way? "Oh yes >officer, the drugs are under the sofa. Will you be taking me >away now?" >Fortunately, your own personal campaign did not interfere with >the one I was conducting. I guess I can forget about talking to >Bigelow, as you have already interjected yourself into the >situation and taken care of it. I wouldn't get beans out of him >now. Thanks to you he's now "on alert" about the issue. >BTW, in spite of what Bigelow may have told you regarding how >many files had 'blacked out names and addresses', I have info >from one of the _principles_ involved to the contrary. You >really should have coordinated with me/talked to me, before >running off copies of my posts and sending them to MUFON and >Bigelow along with _demands_ for answers. I don't operate that >way myself. If it was the other way around, I would _never_ have >done something like that to you. It would be tantamount to >setting you up as a target. >I'm officially out of this. >You can individually do with it (the info I provided) whatever you >wish. John, I apologize if my contacting the folks you named offended you, my motives were far from any that you attribute to me here. I did not contact anyone until after you posted the names, and obviously I misunderstood your postings on the subject, as I understood that you were inviting and encouraging others to "investigate" the situation and look for answers. As an abductee myself, whose personal info is the hands of some researchers, MUFON, and even NIDS to some degree, I felt I had every right in the world to ask whether or not this situation had really happened, and hopefully for some further explanation as well. That was all I did, nothing more. Am I the only one to ask those questions directly of those named, as was suggested here? I did not use your posts as an "intro" to the folks I contacted. I can introduce myself if needed just fine. I also did not mean to "step all over your toes with complete disregard". I would have thought that the more these folks got requests for answers the better, it is a lot easier to just ignore one person isn't it? Anyway, John, again I apologize if my actions seemed inappropriate to you. With this post I publicly promise never to forward, re-post, or use in any way any posts of yours again. Diane
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 7 UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Lewis From: Stephen Lewis <slewis@tsl.state.tx.us> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 11:09:57 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 23:54:59 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Lewis >From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA> >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 12:13:41 -0500 (CDT) >Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 19:29:13 -0400 >Subject: UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Rutkowski >>Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 17:25:40 -0400 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Hello All, >>I spoke with Walt Andrus (who is the head of MUFON) today. >>(Weds. 7/5/00) To make a long story short, he _confirmed_ the >>fact that John Carpenter did in fact _sell_abductee_files to >>Robert Bigelow for an undisclosed amount of money. ><snip> >>To All Abductees: Make absolutely sure to secure written and >>signed assurances that your privacy and anonymity will be >>protected and maintained when contacting -any- abduction >>researcher. An honest and ethical researcher will have no >>problem providing and signing that type of an agreement. ><snip again> >If anyone has a copy of this code online, it might be a good >idea to post it here and start some reasonable discussion with >the goal of having at least list members consider adhering to >it. >Second, a similar code was drafted many years ago for ufology in >general, but also ignored. <snip> Here is a web site with the Ethics Article mentioned: http://www.parapsycology.com/dossier/abduct-ethic.shtml SMiles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 7 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Lehmberg From: Alfrd Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 11:09:29 +0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 23:57:52 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Lehmberg >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 23:36:13 -0400 (EDT) >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 14:57:39 -0400 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snippity doo da, snippity yay> To quote Bill Murray in conversation with Harold Ramis and Danny Ackroyd, "Guys... you're scaring the straights." Lehmberg@snowhill.com -- in Northern California, visiting me Mum, and seeing UFO's (Fitfully flying nocturnal lights of varying speed, direction, and luminance) _daily_ in a continued trend of increasing aerial activity. Mum saw her first on this trip, and she is consumed with excitement. She is 73.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 7 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 12:20:15 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 23:59:37 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Balaskas >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 22:47:58 -0400 >From: Rick Goldsmith <rgoldsm@synapse.net> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >I live a stones throw from Ottawa "U". I will gladly stroll >across the bridge and see what I can find there. Nick will have >to give me instructions on what the documents are and how to go >about getting at them. It may take me a couple of weeks to do >it, especially if access can only be obtained during business >hours. Hopefully, I will be able to make some scans and share >what information I can with the list. Don't expect a complete >history of the man himself ("he's a complicated man, noone >understands him but his woman....") but I'll dig up what I can >about the reference to communication with aliens. Hi Rick. Be prepared to be amazed in not only what you read by Smith but by other Canadian scientists (eg. Dr. Stedman). According to a UofO bochure I have, their Archives and Special Collections at Morisset Hall, 65 University, Room 603, can be accessed Monday to Friday from 12:30 p.m. to 4:00 p.m. Lucie Desjardins was the chief archivist that helped me to access the Wilbert B. Smith Collection, ARC 94-2. Lucie's phone number is (613) 562-5910. Just to let you know what to expect, below is a brief summary of what is there. The Smith collection alone is 30 inches thick. Box 1 - Project Magnet, 5 files (3 inches). - Project Second Storey, 1 file (1/2 inch) - biographical material, 7 files (2 inches) - correspondence, 25 files (4 inches) - one reel to reel tape about TESLA, February 10, 1966 - binder, 'The New Science' manuscript - binder, 'Dean Space Drive' manuscript and correspondence Box 2 - file 1 - envelope, analysis of ionospheric trace, 1952 - file 2 - envelope, Dr. Stedman's analysis of St. John's traces, 1952 - file 3 - envelope, Canadian Space Travel Planning Committee - 'Synopsis Report On Atom Models' manuscript by Dr. Stedman "publication reserved", 1952 - classified correspondence re above - list of members of group, goals of group, 1952 - file 4 - envelope, Project Magnet draft report, 1952 - material on Project Second Storey - file 5 - Project Magnet technical drawings - file 6 - pamphlet, Stephen Michalak encounter with UFO - file 7 - miscellaneous - periodicals and UFO newsletters (10 inches), Boxes 3 (which contains a specimen of the Les Ecureuils "iron mass"), 4 and 5 are part of the Arthur Bray UFO Collection. In addition to all this, a large collection of older books on UFOs are also part of UofO's archived UFO collection.. For those UFO UpDates readers who live closer to Toronto, you are welcome to view my photocopies of a large selection of Smith's papers and personal correspondence at York University. >I hope that Nick does not take this as a sarcastic challenge of >his sources or opinions, Personally, I think that Wilbert Smith >is one of the unsung heroes of UFO lore in spite of his >eccentricities. I am happy to see his name coming up more and >more in discussions as of late and I wouldn't put it past him if >he did have a talk with space aliens. <snip> A prophet is never given the honour he/she deserves in his town. Besides, Canadians have a reputation of being modest when it comes to our accomplishments and not tooting our horn too loud. In one of Smith's letters before he died in 1962, he claimed that he never met an alien in person, at least not knowingly. Smith may not be well known but I often wonder what ufology would be like today, including the whole MJ-12 saga, if Smith kept all his findings and thoughts regarding UFOs to himself. Since this thread is about MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash, let me quote from Smith's paper 'Why I Believe in the Reality of the Spacecraft' - "In Mantell's case the altered field configuration in the vicinity of the craft reduced the binding forces within the structural members of the aircraft to a value below that of the load which they were expected to carru, so they just came apart. These altered binding forces have been measured by simple instruments by people in my group... I understand that Mantell's body gave every indication of having been subjected to considerable heat, and not from the outside in." I think this last sentence is important when compared to what Edward J. Ruppelt said in his 'The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects', page 57 - "Mantell's body had not burned, not disintegrated, and was not full of holes; the wreck was not radioactive, nor was it magnetized.". Note that Ruppelt did not say anything that would rule out reduced binding as the cause of the crash since the heating came from within, much like what happens to food in a microwave oven. Smith found that the strength of an object, such as a steel rod, for example, will not be exactly the same everywhere on the Earth and not always the same at the same place on the Earth either. This of course goes against orthodox scientific understanding. Never the less, after Smith convinced himself that the cause of two fatal airplane crashes which he investigated with a binding meter he built, Smith risked his professional reputation by issuing a warning of the danger to the public. It was ignored of course but I admire Smith as a true and conscientious scientist for doing this. As we know, Mantell is not the only military pilot, U.S. and foreign, to have lost their life chasing UFOs. In the late Hugh Cochrane's book 'Gateway to Oblivion', many other Canadian military aircraft were lost around the same time period that Smith made his discovery of reduced binding. Although Canada was not in a state of war at the time, the files on these crashes were stamped SECRET. Why? A fellow researcher has made the suggestion that the atomic bomb which was dropped and detonated over Quebec by a disabled U.S. plane returning from a base in the Canadian east coast where many UFO sightings were being made may have been caused by a UFO too. If anyone is interested in the plans for the binding meter which Smith built, give me a mailing address and I will send a copy to them. Nick Balaskas
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 13:30:12 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 00:35:03 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Mortellaro >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 12:13:41 -0500 (CDT) >From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA> >Subject: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 17:25:40 -0400 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Hello All, >>I spoke with Walt Andrus (who is the head of MUFON) today. >>(Weds. 7/5/00) To make a long story short, he _confirmed_ the >>fact that John Carpenter did in fact _sell_abductee_files to >>Robert Bigelow for an undisclosed amount of money. ><snip> >I've been reading all this saga with some curiosity and feel I >should mention a few things. ><snip> >This even harks back to an earlier argument (sorry, thread) here >about "Who speaks for ufology?" There is no one governor or >spokesperson for ufology at this point, let alone a governing or >review body. There are some who _think_ they are, but none who >are universally accepted as such. We need a benevolent dictator >in ufology, perhaps. I nominate Errol. Dear No One in Particular, Listers and the new Gesheft Furrier who speaks for Ufology (that'd be EBK), I secant the emotion ... EBK would make a great leader of the UFO Gestapo. He got them broad shoulders, the lederhosen and the sardonic smile which can move not just mountains but Eskimos. Gesundt would have made a better choice, but as a gesture of good will he (I speak for him whenever he is in his cups) will support Errol in this important task. In fact, I volunteer the services of my personal Consiglieri, Don Bosco di Late' an' Pepsi to be his mouthpiece. I am sure your better half will not mind, Sir Errol of the Nappy. Which is what you should be doing now. Napping. There is a long, long road ahead and you need your rest. And now, if you don't mind, I will take over the management of UpDates. You are gonna be too busy to manage both. In fact, I will be in the Torontian Territory this coming weekend and will bring my ... uh, my ... boize with me in order to maintain order at the radio station when I take over the "Strange Days, Indeed" venue. Errol, you just don't have the time. Admit it. Luckily, I am ready to pitch in and help. Whew, I'll just bet you feel much better now, eh? Oh and before I forget, Colin Quinn will not (as rumored) be my new sidekick. Nope. It will be Andy Richter. You can tell Woodsy that his services will be retained, but not as a side kick. He will instead, star in a new old time radio segment on my new show, "Strange Dais with Gripple" and play the part of Sammy the Sullen Abductee. It's the ongoing saga of how a country girl (Sammy) can find happiness in the big city. A spinoff will be "Stella (Sammy) Finds Dallas but Prefers Toronto!" Subtitled, "Day Gots Betta Restaurants Dere!" Woodsy can also play the part of the Eskimo in "The Love Triangle flies Over Toronto." Glad you are leaving, Errol, I always wanted my own radio show. Love always and since you can't have nugs in Canada, how are yous Gestapo gonna enforce the law? Huh? I got it. Make a new law. I'll let you handle the details. You've always been adaptable. Dr. J. Jaime Gesundt
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: Re: Mars - For Your Enjoyement - Killeen From: Patrick Killeen <p.killeen@sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 14:33:02 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 00:39:03 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Mars - For Your Enjoyement - Killeen >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 20:13:25 -0700 >From: Dan Geib <DanGeib@ArtGomperz.com> >Subject: Mars - For Your Enjoyement >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >I found this entertaining >Remember the Bill Cooper and John Lear Stories of Alien Bases, >Bases on Mars and the moon? There appears to be a rebirth of >this UFO Folklore at www.earth-today.com >This site has a video of alleged landing on Mars from inside a >flying saucer As I watched the video I had to wonder why the >technology that 'advanced' from interstellar space beings was >using what appears to be 1.5 inch magnetic tape reels ? I >wondered: Wouldn't the Aliens have better technology than IBM at >that time? ;o) Anyway, I found it entertaining and thought I >would just pass it along Hi Dan, EBK and listers! Yes, it is fake, err.. fiction!! The entire Alternative3 video (1hr- Apr/77 Eng.) can be seen in it's entirety at: http://mars-earth.com/newvideo1.htm the segments that entertained Dan are in parts 3 & 4. The history/mystery of the 1.5inch video tape is also very well explained in parts 1 & 2 and then reaches it's climactic conclusion in part 4. I was also entertained by the point that Astronaut Bob Groden as introduced in part 3, who plays an important role in unravelling the mystery for the television crew, whose voice is clearly audible in the Mars landing segment and who is the person talking to ground control from the moon during the unusual "tango, tango.. jezebel" sighting - never went to the moon according to: http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/history/apollo/index.html According to the credits in Alt3, Bob Groden was played by Shane Rimmer. All in all, a very creative film. Patrick
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 17:13:29 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 00:55:31 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Velez >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >To: "02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers":; >Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Mortellaro >Date: Fri, Jul 7, 2000, 8:50 AM >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 23:36:13 -0400 (EDT) >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 14:57:39 -0400 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>First, it would be much more appropriate (and demonstrate a >>little character) if you were to address me directly. When I >>have something to say to you, I _always_ say it to your face. >>Show me the same respect. >OK, John, but this will be the exception, not the rule. I'm 'honored' I suppose. >>In regard to your remark above: >>a. I have not been associated with Budd Hopkins for more than a >>year. I was, in point of fact, very 'public' about severing the >>connection. Why would you or anybody else associate me or the >>topic of this thread with Budd? I haven't mentioned his name >>once anywhere. Anyone who makes such an "immediate" association >>(which so far seems to be you alone) is jumping to wild >>conclusions and more importantly, _missing the point_ >>completely. >Would have been better if you stated who was not guilty. Truth >be known, whether you know it, like it or not, you are >associated with Budd. Just in case you or anybody else missed it on the first pass, my response was: >Anyone who makes such an "immediate" association >>(which so far seems to be you alone) is jumping to wild >>conclusions and more importantly, _missing the point_ >>completely. As for stating "who is not guilty" the answer is simple; we just don't know. That's the point of counselling people to secure written assurances up front. You want to know 'who is guilty and who isn't' - do the work of finding out yourself! Report back to the list with the names of those you have determined to be "innocent." I found a rotten apple and I reported it. If you want to know who else is involved then by all means, go for it. How you plan to make the determination of "innocence" is a mystery to me. >As was I. What "association?" I spent six years of my life working full time to make IF a service organization for anyone who needed info or help. I resent it when a Johnny-come-lately like yourself tries to make it sound like your involvement and contribution was 'more' than it really was. _I_ was the one that brought you into IF, and I was around when you left. Your involvement was _minimal_andperipheral_ at best, and lasted all of three or four months. If by involvement you mean in last years conference, you were away in Europe for most of that time remember? As for the computer that you donated to Budd, it was a generous contribution and much appreciated but that does not constitute an "association" with Budd or IF. I haven't spoken to Budd in more than a year but I'm pretty sure that he wouldn't be too choked up about how "associated" you tell everybody you are with him or IF. You can stop feeding that line of crap to the public. It isn't true. The "association" between yourself and Budd Hopkins/IF exists solely in _your_ mind, and the minds of those you have sold that particular piece of BS to. >But as in your post, the names of the >guilty and the innocent shall remain private, which in this >case, is where they belong. Jim, don't you even read the posts? I posted the names of the people involved in response to a post from Greg Sandow a week ago! I've been having trouble figuring out why you keep saying that I haven't mentioned the names of those involved. It's clear that you missed a few posts along the way. >>b. Instead of making an actual 'contribution' to this thread >>you choose to divert attention away to 'non-issues.' Try to >>concentrate and keep your attention focused on what is >>currently on the table before us please. I find it astounding >>that you have nothing more to offer here than this 'out of >>place' concern about the "pall that has been cast" upon >>innocent researchers. I have put my ass on the line in order to >>warn people about a couple of unscrupulous researchers (in >>order to protect _you_ and them from the kind of harm that has >>already befallen 140 others) and all you have to offer is, 'Oh, >>the pall that is being cast on poor innocent researchers.' And, >>"Gee whiz, if it was me, I'd associate this mess with the >>researcher that John >was once associated with.' What color >is the sky in your world Morty? >I'd not have been >critical if I had not received a goodly number of mails from >people who thought you were referring to someone in particular. First of all, _you_ should know better! And,..whoever else is laboring under similar delusions or jumping to similar conclusions is just wrong. What is your 'glitch' over this point? There is _no_ association between Budd Hopkins and myself, or this particular piece of business. Why do you insist on making it an issue that is even worthy of discussion? People "jump" to wrong conclusions or make absolutely wild assumptions and in _your_ mind it is my responsibility to explain myself to them. (?) I have made myself 'clear' all along. It is _you_ that continues to interject confusion into the equation. You had several courses of action here Jimbo. You pay a lot of lipservice to "unity" but when the chips are down, instead of supporting me and helping me, you chose to focus on untrue, and distracting issues. The _only_ one that supported me on the List was Liz. You proceeded to nit-pik over made up nonsense, (ie; my implicating Budd because of our past association) and Diane proceeded to send copies of everything I wrote to MUFON and Bigelow! In my posts I clearly indicated that I was in the process of verifying all this with Andrus, Bigelow and Carpenter, and Diane interjects herself into the middle of an investigation I am conducting without having all the information and without communicating with me to find out if her participation will screw up what I've been working on. In short, instead of abductees rallying around to support an issue that affects us all, one jumps in like an elephant in a crystal factory warning everyone that I'm coming, and another one starts to nit-pik me to death over made up BS! Thank you both for supporting me at a time and with an issue that really called for a united front. This work is all just a form of entertainment for you isn't it? A way to create a persona for yourself. I have given years of 12 to 16 hour days to working with those who contact me for info or help. You like to 'talk the talk' but when it comes down to actual contributions you are as empty as a beer can on a hot day. Ask EBK or Greg Sandow or any of my other associates whether I am disrespectful with them. If you wonder why I talk to you the way I do, it's because: Posers who only talk and do nothing piss me off. >Now, all our dirty laundry on this list. From my side, it will >be the last time. God willing and the comet don't hit. Just >remember, I did not make this personal, nor did I bring up our >personal problems. Jimmy can you understand how I can get annoyed when I'm in the middle of dealing with a major issue and you come along pissing Gripple over everything? You did not make _one_ bloody comment about a major researcher having sold the files of abductees. Instead your contribution and support amounts to postings about "the pall that has been cast on the innocent" and how I have implicated Budd Hopkins because I happened to have worked for man in the past. My God man, can't you see how "out of touch" with the business at hand your responses are? Can't you see how they only serve to _distract_ people from the _real_ issues? Dude, if you can't help, then stay out of it. As for Airing "our" laundry. It's _your_ laundry, not mine. I didn't just 'dump you' out of the blue. It took years of putting up with nonsense from you before I severed the connection. Don't you recall why I booted you out of AIC? That was _you_ Jimmy, your actions precipitated that, not me. You forced me into dropping you. I cannot have the privacy of the AIC list jeapordized or threatened in any way shape or form. Ergo, you were rapidly and summarily dumped. After being screwed by you on several occasions I had simply had enough. I have that right, and if it makes you uncomfortable to have such incidents brought up, don't do crap like _that_ to people! Then, they _won't_ have anything to talk about! >And the reason I did not respond to you directly is simple. I >knew you would take the dirty laundry out and share it with the >folks here on UpDates. It seems to be your style. Jimmy, my 'style' is calling a spade a spade. You can "read" it or 'rationalize' it in your own head anyway you want to. >You started hanging our stupid little personal problems on the >line for all to see. Which is why I chose to leave your company >in the first place. Jimmy, you didn't "leave" me or AIC... you were _booted out_! You were booted out because of that "undisclosed mailing list" header that my posts, and AIC posts kept appearing on. Had that been your only offense I would have gladly looked the other way because of the fondness I felt for you. But that wasn't the case was it Jimbo? It was in fact, the straw that broke the camel's back. _That_ is how we parted company. Your talk like a jilted lover that proclaims to the world that, "I broke up with her, she didn't break up with me!" Most folks leave/outgrow that kind of stuff back in Junior High. Please, don't BS me in public or in my face. What actually happened and what 'you say happened' are two different animals. I have the e-mails from that time to prove it. Care to call my hand in public? ;) Enough, please go back to ignoring me. I will not be responding to any further posts on this thread. If you and others insist that I have somehow implicated Budd Hopkins via ancient association, then so be it. There isn't much I can do about which fantasies folks choose to entertain. Regards, John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 - Hatch From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 22:50:15 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 00:57:41 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 - Hatch >Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 01:02:41 -0700 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Desmond Leslie! That is interesting. >>Did Leslie have anything to say about his present perception of >>Adamski and/or his contactee claims? >>Does he accept the Adamski story now, or has he come to distance >>himself from all this over so many years? I would bet Leslie is >>asked about this all the time. >>I assume he must have accepted Adamski's claims in the 1950s; >>tacitly enough at least to co-author a book. Hi Larry Re the Italian conference; I'm only posting on behalf of Nick Pope who is not on-line, sorry I was not at the conference and am unable to answer your questions. However, Nick tells me that he will be covering this issue in his August column. Greetings Georgina
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: Berliner Interviewed By 'Denver Rocky Mountain News' From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 00:45:27 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 01:05:30 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Berliner Interviewed By 'Denver Rocky Mountain News' Source: Denver Rocky Mountain News, July 7, 2000, http://insidedenver.com/johnson/0707johns.shtml Stig *** Bill Johnson Would you report a UFO? The truth is out there ** OK, what would you say if I admitted I was out in my back yard, and saw a low, slow, silent triangle with red lights that for long minutes glowed greenish-yellow before turning red, receding into the clouds and shooting straight across the sky? See! This is my nightmare scenario. There are a lot of things I'm afraid of � which I'll admit. This is THE one thing I hope I never encounter. Please, Lord, don't ever send a UFO my way. I bring this up only because the latest copy of The UFO Report was thrown on my desk the other day. It is fascinating, scary reading. And I love UFO stuff. Sue me. I think they exist. And why not? Is it completely out of the realm of possibility? The 11 people who sighted a UFO between May 14 and June 8 cannot all be crazy. If I saw one, and I am serious about this, I would say not a word. Life is tough enough. Don Berliner, who edits The UFO Report out of Washington, D.C., laughed. Sort of. It is the reason the entire UFO movement has stalled in recent years, he says. "Most people don't report because they are afraid of being laughed at. It's unfortunate, but it's life." He started his monthly report strictly for the media. Most media people today weren't around in the salad days of the '50s and '60s, when UFO and their sightings were "really hot." There were days back then, says Berliner, 70, when they couldn't keep up with the overwhelming amount of UFO reports. Today is different. What most people know of UFOs, he says, comes from the supermarket tabloids and The X-Files. "There's a lot more to it," he says. "It's a worldwide phenomenon that's covered a half-century. And there's a big story out there. It's why I keep at it." The problem is only one in 10 sightings is reported, Berliner says. It's the laugh factor. And there really is no place for people to report a sighting. The government quit accepting them in 1969. "It got frustrating for them because most of their explanations were always incredibly flawed," he says. "Since then, they've insisted they have no interest in the subject." The other problem is people reporting sightings always see them at night. The key is not to see lights, but objects, Berliner says. Lights can be anything � a meteor, a plane. There's never any detail. It makes the report virtually useless. Of the 11 May-June sightings published in his report, only two occurred during daylight hours. Why does he do it? He is a believer, he says. An aviation writer by trade, he's heard so many stories from pilots. Almost all of them are afraid to come forward. "A lot of good information is lost annually because people say nothing. They don't want to look crazy," he says. He does what he does simply to help people understand the mystery. "It's a mystery that happens so often, you think it should be susceptible to scientific study," Berliner says. "Myself and others in the field just want the answers. We want to move onto something else." Does he ever believe he will find the answer? "If you'd asked me 30 years ago, I'd have said we'd know in a decade. Look how wrong I'd have been." He does, though, have just one wish. "I hope," he says, "I last long enough to at last find the answer." Bill Johnson's column appears Sunday, Wednesday and Friday. July 7, 2000 � Copyright, Denver Publishing Co.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: Selling Files - Brookesmith From: Peter, Duke of Mendoza, Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 21:49:58 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 01:23:14 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Selling Files - Brookesmith The Duke of Mendoza presents his compliments to the List. >Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 02:12:43 -0400 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Thanks for mentioning this issue! It almost seems to have >fallen into a black hole for some people. Regardless of >one's stand on this issue, skeptic or beleiver, it should >put a chill into anyone that someone's medical records >have been sold in this manner. >I doubt anyone want's others, Insurance Companies, loan >officers, etc. to be able to get ahold of one's >confidential records simply by purchasing them. Whether >it's "Abduction" or flat feet, this is supposed to be >confidential information. In the information age it gets >increasingly difficult to maintain one's privacy. My first reaction to reading this was: "This is getting out of hand. NIDS (on Robert Bigelow's behalf) has already made it clear that personal IDs have been removed from the records that John Carpenter allegedly sold to them/him." But John Velez says (snips implicit) >Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 03:56:24 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter >To: updates@sympatico.ca >BTW, in spite of what Bigelow may have told you regarding >how many files had 'blacked out names and addresses', I >have info from one of the _principles_ involved to the >contrary. -- which puts a different perspective on this tangled issue. And that, viewed from my corner of the field, hasn't exactly been treated with overwhelming subtlety so far. Fundamentally, the issue is this: do we want to find out what lies behind the soi-disant "abduction" phenomenon -- no matter where the evidence leads? The answer ought to be a resounding chorus of "Ayes". I don't think any truly _objective_ abduction researcher is going to get very far in assessing any given case without having to hand a good deal of very personal information about a subject who's claiming to have been abducted. Nor can other researchers, from their armchairs or their private orbits, make much of that first researcher's conclusions without having access to the same information. (It may be made available in a published report, or be accessible to persons of honor and integrity; it doesn't matter how the system works, as long as it's honored, and there is trust among researchers, regardless of their initial persuasion -- which is what trust means.) That is how scientists, with whom ufologists so desperately want to be compared, operate -- or are supposed to. If the experimental findings look strange to one's peers, one makes the laboratory log available if necessary. When that kind of nitty gritty disappears, as it has done in certain well-known cases (think cold fusion), the aroma of fetid rodents is rarely far behind. Abductology is a rats' graveyard, and most of the rats rot in shallow graves: hence the stink. This is not because individual researchers lack sincerity, humanity, integrity or honor -- at least by their own lights. It is because the whole character of the witness, the circumstances of an experience, and the (shorthand here) thoroughness and appropriateness of the researcher and his/her methods can so rarely be checked out. Dan Wright's transcription project serves as a perfect example of why not: the best-known researchers -- those who had done most to establish in the public mind what an abduction consists of -- declined to participate on the grounds that issues of privacy were paramount. I think this is claptrap, actually. No "abductee"'s identity need be revealed in the transcription project, or in any other general assessment (a search for patterns of _any_ kind) of abductions, or even in a dissection of an indvidual case. If John Carpenter (or anyone) _did_ sell his data to Robert Bigelow (or anyone else) as alleged, and _if_ all individual identifying marks of his subjects were obliterated from the files involved, the only objection (surely?) to the transaction is a moral one. Namely, the researcher-vendor's subjects didn't enter discussions on the understanding that their information might be sold, and furthermore they are not going to see any of the proceeds (which in their eyes might, in any case, be worth rather more than $100 a throw for their pain and anguish - what?). Nonetheless, people who enter into a dialogue (let's just call it that) with an abduction researcher must surely understand that at least _some_ of the information they provide, however bizarre, will very likely eventually end up in some kind of report, and in the public domain. Isn't it naive to think otherwise? (If I roll up at the quack's surgery with three 38-DD mammary glands that have sprung up and out overnight on my chest, I can reasonably expect to be written up in The Lancet.) Otherwise, we would never have had any inkling of how the phenomenon has developed over the years, or be able to draw any conclusions, be they sympathetic or skeptical, about it. So what do people want? A secret phenomenon? Unqualified endorsement of their prejudices? Or an attempt to find out what's what? Yet other alleged abductees have been more than eager to publicise their own experiences. Debbie Tomey, Linda Napacortilaginous, Karla Turner, come to mind among many others who've had no objection to being identified. In the case of my hypothetical pectorals, I'd welcome expert medical discussion -- but (and perhaps this is the issue, really) I'd surely draw the line at my name, picture, whereabouts and the names of my startled and mortified relatives being splashed across the tabloids as a result. I personally can't see a way around intimate details of abductees being made public, if anyone's to begin to understand what "abduction" really means. However, I don't, and nor do you, really need to know that John Velez is _the_ John Velez of New York City. We could read about, describe or criticize his case (and I would have, if that's what he'd have preferred) as "Subject V", or some such label. All that's required is an agreement between the subject and the researcher that _identifying_ details be kept confidential. Everything else _has_ to be up for grabs. This is no different from the way the medical profession works. According to NIDS, this is the convention they have followed with (it is alleged) John Carpenter's subjects. According to John Velez, however, the correct protocol hasn't been followed. This makes a tacky situation into a badly bungled one, but I remain (perhaps heartlessly) hopeful that NIDS will do its own censorship and respect the privacy of those concerned. And I repeat, perhaps equally heartlessly, that the issues "abduction" raises (however one tentatively interprets its reality) are large enough to justify the analysis of useful data, no matter how excruciatingly personal they are -- as long as individuals are protected from the unscrupulously inquisitive. People who think they are abductees but do not want their personal or intimate details revealed (even "anonymously") are not in the business of forwarding our understanding of what is happening to them. That's their choice, of course. But if it is their choice, then perhaps they should ponder why they've chosen to identify themselves as abductees without any commitment to contributing to the sum of human knowledge. Here we come back to the vexed question (discussed recently on this List) of whether abduction "researchers" are trying to solve a problem or deal with people's distress -- even when said researchers may have helped induce said stress. There is a clear distinction here, but in the final end (as when visions shatter like a glass) it's up to the individuals who suspect they may be abductees to choose which path to take: _relief_ of the symptoms (i.e. the professional "mental health" path) or _acceptance_ of them (the abductologists' path). If either makes them more miserable than they were before, they carry the ultimate responsibility. Looking around at the legal, political, and general social ethos in which we struggle to survive, I do sometimes think that very few (and those are mavericks) are prepared to take personal responsibility for anything any more. I think I've written enough lines to read between. (Gratuitous aside: those familiar with my book on abductions will recall John Velez there imploring those who suspect they are abductees _not_ to approach known abductologists.) Like Chris "Laugh A Minute" Rutkowski, I mourn the absence of David Gotlib from this field. Why did he leave it? He was so good he doesn't rate a single mention in a certain well-lauded UFO encyclopedia. Whether this was the result of ignorance in the French or the English senses of the word, only time will tell. best wishes Paleanthropos D. Methismenos In Vino, Veritas
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Keith From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 20:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 01:31:07 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Keith To no one in particular: >Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 02:12:43 -0400 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >I'm calling on those in the field who truly care to get >together as rapidly as possible and draw-up a set of >guidelines to protect all of Us as quickly as they possibly >can. We have been called a lot of terrible names, but we've >been called some nice ones too. If we are any of those nice >things, we deserve to be treated as such. We deserve, given >what we have suffered all of our lives, to expect a show of >real caring and support from those who have used our lives in >their books, lectures and films, to be protected as much as >possible. No one can protect us from "Them", but you can >protect us from "You". The code of ethics that was introduced by Dr. Gotlib (spelling apologies) is an excellent document. However, as I have lamented before, there really is no way of putting "teeth" into this document when one is dealing with what I would call wannabee therapists. What recourse is there for someone who feels this code has been violated? And as I have said before, there are remedies and protections provided to people who deal with professionals who hold state licenses and belong to professional organizations. Just out of curiosity, has anyone looked at the Code and/or guidelines for licensed clinical social workers, psychologists, psychiatrists, and/or therapists? If you feel you were harmed by someone holding a license to practice in one of the above mentioned professions, you can file a complaint. You will have your complaint investigated. You can even get a lawyer. There are remedies. It might not give you your privacy once it has been violated but licensing boards and courts of law can give you recourse. An aside to John Velez: You are _still_ my hero. We may not agree on all things, but I really admire you because you don't ever put yourself first. You seem always to be looking out for others. And you give good hugs! Best, Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 02:42:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 09:56:31 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Velez >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >To: "02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers":; >Subject: UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Lovett >Date: Fri, Jul 7, 2000, 11:51 PM >Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 12:02:05 -0400 >From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> >Subject: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Velez >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 03:56:24 -0400 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter >>To: updates@sympatico.ca ><snip> >>Diane Lovett: You can stop sending copies of my postings to >>MUFON and to Robert Bigelow. They _know_ already. I forwarded >>copies to them the day I posted it. I never do anything behind >>someone's back. >>Here's a novel idea! How about _asking me_ if it's ok to use my >>posting to contact these folks yourself, or better yet, you >>could have asked if your own efforts would conflict or duplicate >>with whatever efforts/investigating I was already engaged in. >>Not only do you use my posts as an "intro" with these people >>without asking me, but you step all over my toes with complete >>disregard. >>It didn't happen, but... you could have screwed up something >>important that I was following up on by running in and >>"alerting" the very people I was investigating. Like going to a >>dope dealer that is under observation and saying to him: "By the >>way, the Police are checking you out, are you really engaged in >>the selling of illegal drugs?" <snip> Diane wrote: >John, >I apologize if my contacting the folks you named offended you, Geez Diane, you make me sound so 'petty.' Shame. You should take the time to get to know me. I'm not like that at all. Diane, I wasn't "offended" because you contacted _them_, I was P.O.'d because you didn't contact _me!_ You knew I was working on this. There is a whole heap of stuff going on that you didn't know about because you didn't communicate with me. After speaking with Walt Andrus my next call was going to be Bigelow. The Bigelow call was an _important_ call. What you didn't know because you _didn't_ ask is, I have been getting information from (now 7 of them) the abductees whose files were sold. They have all been reporting that the personal info in the files was _not_ "blacked out" at the time of sale as Andrus and Bigelow claim. To Bigelow's credit files have been returned to one individual that I know of, but... nothing was "blacked out." The name, address, social security number, medical records were all there in plain view. Part of the sale material included audio and videotapes of hypnosis sessions and the medical records of many of the abductees. I know, you didn't know. But then, you didn't _ask_ either! You can't expect me to publish every detail of every communication that I receive from people to this list. Or do you? No, of course not. So I guess the only way to make sure that you are actually "helping" and not "hurting" the cause is by _asking_. Right? :) Diane, because of my conversation with Andrus I _already_knew_ that Bigelow would come at me using the "blackened out personal info" cop-out as a means of _sanitizing_ the issue. I was going to confront him with the information that I've been getting from the people who are the most directly involved; the abductees whose files he purchased. He would not have gotten away with the lame excuse that he handed you. You ended up posting _his_ policy material from NIDS for Keerist sake! What did Bigelow do? Hypnotize you? Your call put him wise that he was about to be barraged with questions from all quarters. Nobody is going to get anything out of him now. But then, there ya go! You were only trying to help. :) Diane, if you really wanted to "be the one" to make the call to Bigelow I would have been happy to share what I knew with you so that you could go in there fully armed and knowing what to say. And most important of all, you would have gone in there as a _sanctioned_rep_ for the abductees whose files he now owns. You didn't call me. You just jumped right in there with big boots and tore the place up. I haven't heard from the abductees yet but I imagine they won't be terribly choked up with the results you got. Posting a NIDS policy sheet just isn't going to ring the bell for them. Are you beginning to understand why I got pissed off Diane? But wait! There's more! :) Also, on the same day, I recieved a copy of a 'MUFON Staff memo' and in it, is a copy of the e-mail that you sent them demanding a explanation of this business including a full copy of my posting to UpDates! With _my_ name, and _my_ e-mail address prominently displayed. What was I supposed to think Diane? _You_ sent it to them. It had your name and e-mail address on it. I was upset because you put everyone on Red Alert. No further info will be forth coming from those quarters I can assure you. Everyone is now super busy doing damage control and covering their bottoms. :) "Fore warned, is fore armed" as they say. Good show Diane! So you see, I have read your note to them. Maybe you just don't see it, but what you did when you sent a general note to "MUFON" and not a specific individual was to put them all "on alert." By now they are ready for all comers. Not to mention the fact that you also 'set me up' as a target for them! Again, thanx for all the help. :) More? you ask. Yes, more! You also "assume" that when I asked for help from "investigators" that I meant every amateur with a phone line and a modem. Wrong! I very specifically asked if there were any "real" investigators or journalists who would be willing to run with this. As everyone knows, the silence was deafening. I don't know you that well Diane. Are you a "trained investigator" or an "experienced journalist?" If so, I _was_ talking to you. If not, my 'elephant in a glass factory' analogy stands. The Bigelow call was important, Diane, because I was going to use the opportunity to ask for _all_ the files to be returned to the subjects. (If) I caught him in the right mood. He's on 'Red Alert' now. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that he isn't taking any more personal calls from strangers about this issue. Anyone who does so will most likely be referred to his attorneys. Thanks again. :) All that, is why I was "pissed." I wasn't "annoyed" because you "contacted them." This is America kid, you can call whomever you damn well please any time day or night. There was just a lot more riding on _that_call_ than you can imagine. >obviously I misunderstood your postings on the subject, All you ever had to do was ask. :) >Anyway, John, again I apologize if my actions seemed >inappropriate to you. This isn't about "me" and it _never_has_been_. It was "inappropriate" to 140 other abductees. Appologize to _them_ if you think it'll make a difference. No need to appologize to me because you haven't hurt _me_ in any way, shape, or form. I know that you were only trying to do good. I just didn't want you to get away without an 'educational' lecture. I've gotten them myself, making mistakes is the only way to learn I guess. Maybe next time you'll ask first. ;) >With this post I publicly promise never to >forward, re-post, or use in any way any posts of yours again. You don't have to "take your ball home" Diane. All you have to do is to show folks the courtesy and respect of _asking_ them before you repost anything. I have found that most folks are happy to give consent once their ok has been asked. Try it sometime! <g> Regards, John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: Re: Chupacabras in Tierra del Fuego - Lissoni From: Alfredo Lissoni <retecun@tiscalinet.it> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 08:43:48 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 09:59:29 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Chupacabras in Tierra del Fuego - Lissoni >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 05:21:42 +0100 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Chupacabras in Tierra del Fuego >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Scott Corrales wrote: >>Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 11:34:17 -0400 >>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com> >>Subject: Chupacabras in Tierra del Fuego >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>After a media-imposed hiatus, news of the Chupacabras's further >>exploits has re-entered the popular awareness. Chile has been >>spared this time as the strange creature sets its sights on >>Tierra del Fuego--the southernmost point of the Americas. >>Scott Corrales >>Institute of Hispanic Ufology >>www.inexplicata.com ><snip> >Can anyone on this list explain to me why this " Creature" has >been seen more often in South America, than anywhere else in the >World? Or is it seen in America and other places around the >World, Europe etc...? In Italy we have three cases of chupacabras's footprints, but this cases were after media talked about this strange creature... Best wishes, Alfredo Lissoni Italy's National UFO Center
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 03:28:14 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:01:56 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Velez >Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 21:49:58 -0400 >From: Peter, Duke of Mendoza, Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >The Duke of Mendoza presents his compliments to the List. >>Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 02:12:43 -0400 >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Selling Files >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Thanks for mentioning this issue! It almost seems to have >>fallen into a black hole for some people. Regardless of >>one's stand on this issue, skeptic or beleiver, it should >>put a chill into anyone that someone's medical records >>have been sold in this manner. >>I doubt anyone want's others, Insurance Companies, loan >>officers, etc. to be able to get ahold of one's >>confidential records simply by purchasing them. Whether >>it's "Abduction" or flat feet, this is supposed to be >>confidential information. In the information age it gets >>increasingly difficult to maintain one's privacy. >My first reaction to reading this was: "This is getting out >of hand. NIDS (on Robert Bigelow's behalf) has already made >it clear that personal IDs have been removed from the >records that John Carpenter allegedly sold to them/him." >But John Velez says (snips implicit) >>Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 03:56:24 -0400 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter >>To: updates@sympatico.ca > >>BTW, in spite of what Bigelow may have told you regarding >>how many files had 'blacked out names and addresses', I >>have info from one of the _principles_ involved to the >>contrary. The Duke writes, (snips implicit) :) >-- which puts a different perspective on this tangled issue. And >that, viewed from my corner of the field, hasn't exactly been >treated with overwhelming subtlety so far. >Fundamentally, the issue is this: do we want to find out what >lies behind the soi-disant "abduction" phenomenon -- no matter >where the evidence leads? The answer ought to be a resounding >chorus of "Ayes". Hola Mendoza! I agree with the core of your statements. But I would like to introduce two important qualifiers if I may. a. Transfer of research materials among accredited researchers is fine and dandy. Not to mention 'necessary' as you have so aptly pointed out. My qualifier is, it's ok as long as the "subject's" consent is obtained. That was _not_ the case in this incident. I'm not a lawyer so I haven't a clue about the legalities involved, but I do know that there is an ethical issue here that needs to be addressed communally (amongst ourselves) immediately. b. It has not yet been determined that "all of the files" that were sold were solely from Mr. Carpenter's private cache! MUFON needs to find out if any files from the transcription project (which Mr Carpenter was in charge of at the time) were included in the package of 140 cases that were sold to Mr. Bigelow. I have been communicating with some of the abductees whose files were sold. They tell me that personal info was _not_ blacked out as evidenced by a set of files that Bigelow returned at one subjects request. All of this persons' personal info; name, address, telephone #, social security #, medical history were all in plain view. I just don't want these points to get lost in the ensuing debate. It can be so easy to forget 'how' or 'why' something got started after it gets rolling. My very warmest regards to the Duke, his Duchess, and all their many equine wards. <VBG> TTYL Peter, :) John Velez, NABE Nemesis of Abductee Bashers Everywhere!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: Alberta Town Waits Patiently For UFO From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 01:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:03:20 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Alberta Town Waits Patiently For UFO Greetings list - From: http://www.canoe.ca/NationalTicker/CANOE-wire.UFO-Conference.html Residents of Alberta town wait patiently for UFO July 7, 2000 ST. PAUL, Alta. (CP) -- After 33 years, people are still waiting patiently for little green men to land at this small farming community's UFO landing pad. Built in 1967, the structure is supposed to draw visitors -- alien and otherwise -- to tour the Polaris Arena, stay overnight at the Galaxy Motel or grab a slice of pie at Mama's Flying Saucer Diner. But for some reason (a wrong left turn at Andromeda?) the spaceships keep missing the place. "We should probably look at painting a big bull's-eye on the landing pad to make it easier to spot from way up there," jokes Rhea Labrie, the town's UFO consultant. To keep the faith and the tourist dollars flowing, St. Paul is hosting UFO Conference 2000 this weekend. The three-day meeting is complete with picture displays and expert speakers on paranormal activities such as UFO sightings, crop circles and animal mutilations. Labrie says more than 500 humanoids from across North America are expected to attend. "Most of the participants come because they have seen things," says Labrie. "They are looking for answers, more information to put their experience into perspective." One of the experts is Fern Belzil, a 70-year-old former cattle rancher who has investigated 46 mysterious mutilations of farm animals. While he hasn't made up his mind yet on whether aliens are responsible, Belzil says some of the discoveries have been pretty spooky. Especially when there are no tracks, no blood and no evidence of a struggle. Often the animal's genitals have been removed with almost surgical precision. "It makes you wonder who did this. It sure as hell wasn't predators or cults," he says. "A lot of evidence points toward aliens . . . but I have no proof of it. Seeing is believing, eh?" Once Belzil set up a video camera pointing at some cattle on a farm in Saskatchewan. When he discovered one of the animals had died, he rushed to view the tape. "The video went blank for 12 minutes . . . a complete whiteout . . . the cow was mutilated." Ted Phillips, another speaker at the conference, is a specialist on UFO sightings and crop circles. The civil engineer from Branson, Mo., has been chasing down flying saucer reports since 1968 and has so far probed 2,300 cases in 79 countries -- including Canada. While he has interviewed hundreds of people who say they have seen UFOs or aliens, his real specialty is looking for physical evidence of extraterrestrial visits. "We have found eight-foot circular rings that will fluoresce (glow) for three or four nights after an event," usually in rural areas in the middle of fields, he says. Animals won't go near the rings and people who touch dirt from such areas get a numb feeling in their fingers, he says. In some cases these sites look like a liquid has been dumped even though the area is completely dry. Phillips believes the spots may be caused by fluid leaks from UFOs. "Whatever generated the site had dumped this liquid residue," he says. "It would be like finding a motor oil leak." Unfortunately Phillips has never managed to obtain a big enough sample of the fluid for chemical analysis. He says it evaporates too quickly. So after 30 years of study does he believe in UFOs? "I've never seen one so I try to really stay on the fence," he says. "But something has to be going on . . . There have been so many witnesses." Phillips says UFO sightings now number about 200 per year in Canada -- mostly in August and September. He says people are more apt to witness a landing between 7 p.m. and 9 p.m. and 1 a.m. to 2 a.m. For the record, most sightings are reported in Ontario, followed by Saskatchewan and Alberta. "Only about 15 per cent of the reported landings involve (alien) humanoids -- little guys." If you meet one of these little green men, make sure you tell them about St. Paul's UFO landing pad. And also let them know that Mama's Diner is featuring its Orbit breakfast special this weekend -- bacon, sausage, three eggs and toast all for $6.75 Cdn. The town's UFO Web site is at www.ufo2000.org. --- Best regards, - Blair Cummins ufoblair@hotmail.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: More Press On St. Paul, Alberta Conference From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 01:09:47 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:06:53 -0400 Subject: UpDate: More Press On St. Paul, Alberta Conference Greetings list - From: http://www.canoe.ca/EdmontonNews/es.es-07-07-0012.html Conspiracy theorists landing in St. Paul By DOUG BEAZLEY, Edmonton Sun Friday, July 7, 2000 "Now, this business goes beyond mere cattle mutilation," said Graham Conway to Fernand Belzil in a very loud voice, halfway through the press conference. "Are you prepared to tell these gentlemen about the otter situation, or shall I?" "The what situation?" asked Belzil, looking startled. "Otters." "I don't know about any otters," Belzil replied. "I heard of some cats being mutilated. Personally, I think that's the cults." This is what shop talk sounds like in the UFO community. Yesterday, four enthusiasts from the murky fields of paranormal phenomena gathered in Edmonton to hype this weekend's UFO 2000 conference in St. Paul, about 200 km northeast of here. In 1996 an Angus Reid poll found that 70% of Canadians - and 83% of Albertans - said they believed intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe. Just over half of the Canadians sampled said they thought the planet had already been buzzed by extraterrestrial vehicles - 14% said future visits were quite likely. And that, said UFO researcher Dr. Bruce Maccabee, makes Albertans some of the canniest people on the orb. Fewer and fewer intelligent North Americans, he said, are willing to accept the lame-duck explanations propped up by the press and the military for the weird lights and mangled sheep, and they're cutting through to the truth: They're out there. "Sightings have been explained away with explanations that make no sense," said Maccabee, whose resume describes him as possessing a PhD in physics. "Like the Roswell incident. Just recently the Air Force announced the alien bodies seen by people on the scene were actually crash-test dummies dropped from balloons in the desert. The Air Force could have gone on ignoring the subject. Instead, it just took one foot out of its mouth and shoved the other in." In other words, the fact the authorities tried to explain the alleged 1947 alien crash-landing in Roswell, New Mexico, proves the explanation was bogus - otherwise they wouldn't have offered it, right? Most of the real conspiracy theorizing in the paranormal business comes from just connecting the dots: from lights in the skies to cattle mutilation to crop circles to repressed abduction memories - to aliens. "I've never seen anything in the sky, ever. Not a single light," said Belzil. He's a St. Paul rancher who's become the acknowledged Canadian field expert on cattle and sheep mutilations. "I've had three reports of cattle mutilations in just the last three weeks. Sometimes they're just missing the tongue and an ear, or just the ear. Often the genitals have been removed, the penis or uterus, sometimes the anus. "And usually there's no blood anywhere. The cuts are clean, like laser cuts. All the arrows point to aliens, but I have no proof. So I guess I just don't know." Conway knows. The Vancouver publisher and UFO-chaser saw his first bogey in 1966, near Scarborough, Ont. - two metallic spheres over a rotating T-shaped bar, hovering hundreds of feet above the ground. He sees a clear link between Belzil's large cattle mutilation casebook, a report out of Fort MacMurray from a trapper who found an otter mangled in much the same fashion and a recent spate of bisected cats showing up in Ontario suburbs. "We found several of these ... half-cats ... they looked like they'd been cut in two by buzzsaws," said Conway. "No trace of blood. The internal organs were mostly undamaged. "We found one with a dark circle on the organs, about the size of a toonie. We sent a sample to a doctor in the U.S. and he concluded the damage was cause by a laser beam." All of which begs the question: If aliens are buzzing deserts, snatching housewives for weird gynecological experiments and cutting household pets in two - why? Are they trying to send us a message? Or is it all an extraterrestrial version of hazing, like knocking down the neighbour's mailbox? "The last thing these aliens want is to communicate with us," said Ted Phillips, a Missouri enthusiast who tracks physical evidence of spaceship landings. "We've always found that when the population goes up, sightings go down. "They tend to land in empty areas, like the middle of the desert. "Whatever it is they're trying to do, they don't want to be seen when they're doing it." --- Best regards, - Blair Cummins ufoblair@hotmail.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 04:26:14 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:12:14 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Hatch >Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 13:30:12 -0400 (EDT) >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Rutkowski >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 12:13:41 -0500 (CDT) >>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA> >>Subject: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 17:25:40 -0400 >>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>Subject: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>I spoke with Walt Andrus (who is the head of MUFON) <snip> >Dear No One in Particular, Listers and the new Gesheft Furrier >who speaks for Ufology (that'd be EBK), >I secant the emotion ... EBK would make a great leader of the >UFO Gestapo. He got them broad shoulders, the lederhosen and the >sardonic smile which can move not just mountains but Eskimos. >Gesundt would have made a better choice, but as a gesture of >good will he (I speak for him whenever he is in his cups) will >support Errol in this important task. - - - - - Dear Mortadella and all else interested. (stop laughing!) I wish to tertialize your nomination of Errol B. K. as moderator of this list, and recommend him for a fourth term of office. He has done a darned fine job ( for a Canadian ) and deserves a good round of applause. One weekend I got my nose into a beer too many, and sent in a reckless and potentially inflammatory posting. Unlike other lists, Errol reads them first, and apparently shelved it. After I came to my senses, it got erased! Not even the Catholic Church (I was once a member) will not allow you to un-run a red traffic light, but Errol kindly deleted the offensive missive and that was that. With any luck, EBK might even loswe this message. [Loswe? Can't even findwe this morn --ebk] One 20 day foray into another list - forever nameless, but it rhymes with Psydonia - has reminded me how valuable the good and necessary services of EBK actually are. It must be a lot of work. Jimmy, we all owe EBK some Gripple .. a definite improvement over recent Canadian vintages despite their best efforts. I would send some genuine Budweiser, but anybody North of the 49th parallel might consider that an insult. I could hardly blame them. Best wishes - " Dry Pasta in Redwood City " ( otherwise nameless) - - - - - >And now, if you don't mind, I will take over the management of >UpDates. Bring something not made from raccoon powder and bananas. - DPRC <snip> >Dr. J. Jaime Gesundt
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 04:48:36 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:15:36 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Hatch >Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 17:13:29 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Mortellaro >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>To: "02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers":; >>Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Mortellaro >>Date: Fri, Jul 7, 2000, 8:50 AM >>Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 23:36:13 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 14:57:39 -0400 >>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>First, it would be much more appropriate (and demonstrate a >>>little character) if you were to address me directly. When I >>>have something to say to you, I _always_ say it to your face. >>>Show me the same respect. <snip> Dear John: I don't follow abduction/abductee matters closely, I merely catalog UFO sightings. Not even knowing your former association with Budd Hopkins, I automatically assumed it was Budd you were referring to. This is because of the words "well known" abduction researcher or whatever. I paraphrase of course. I simply plugged in Hopkins because this is outside of my arena, and that's the first name which popped into my head. I'm sure I'm not the only to make this erroneous assumption. I'm glad it was not Hopkins, that would make be feel pretty bad. I think Jim Morta(whatever) was correct in saying that the wrong names were temporarily, and probably accidentally, darkened. I also agree with Jim that this could have been made clearer from the start as in " I'm not talking about Budd Hopkins, nor Wilhelmina Flotante, nor .. " It just wasn't clear. That's all. For days, I made the wrong assumptions because of the way your first posts were worded. No offense. OK? Snits happen. Best regardless - Larry Hatch - - - - - - - - - - >>OK, John, but this will be the exception, not the rule. >I'm 'honored' I suppose. <snip>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 04:56:47 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 11:21:48 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 - Hatch >Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 22:50:15 +0100 >From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 - Hatch >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 01:02:41 -0700 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Desmond Leslie! That is interesting. >>>Did Leslie have anything to say about his present perception of >>>Adamski and/or his contactee claims? >>>Does he accept the Adamski story now, or has he come to distance >>>himself from all this over so many years? I would bet Leslie is >>>asked about this all the time. >>>I assume he must have accepted Adamski's claims in the 1950s; >>>tacitly enough at least to co-author a book. >Hi Larry >Re the Italian conference; I'm only posting on behalf of Nick >Pope who is not on-line, sorry I was not at the conference and >am unable to answer your questions. However, Nick tells me that >he will be covering this issue in his August column. Thank you Georgina! I'm sure many of us would be interested in any more we can learn about Leslie's opinions at this late date. Is there some way we might learn more, without waiting for Nick Pope to come out with another newsletter? Best wishes - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:06:06 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 11:31:26 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Hammond >Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 17:13:29 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Mortellaro >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>> >>Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 23:36:13 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 14:57:39 -0400 >>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> Dear List: I have said this before, but it seems to bear mention again. Why is it that it seems that almost every post, no matter the subject, seems to degenerate into a cat fight? It IS possible to dislike someone, say whatever you will regarding a person off the List and in private. Then, when a subject arises where unity of purpose is the only response that makes sense, to put those personal feelings aside and do what has to be done. I know it's a possibility because I have seen it happen on several occassions. Especially for Abductees, who have so many strikes against usas it is, it is imperative that we swallow whatever differences we may have and work together for our own common good. When it comes right down to it, most researchers are wonderful, caring people who DO put the needs of their Clients firsts. Many of them are barely making a living at this. Not everyone is a Budd Hopkins or David Jacobs or John Mack. But the tue, "been there done that" support can only come from each other. It's like trying to explain the color blue to a blind man explaining what an abductee really IS. What it feels like, smells like or looks like. Only another Abductee will REALY know what you mean. Diane Lovett did a great job, doing what she thought she was asked to do. Which was to pitch in and help verify all this. I know she never would have approached NIDS if she thought she was going to impede John's investigation in any way. I'd like to thank her for the information she provided. It's also good to know what NIDS policies are in this area. Then there are those like Chris Rutkowski. He had several recommendations on where to begin with devising a set of guidlines of ethical bahaviour. Stephen Lewis sent us to a site which already had "An Ethics Code for Abduction Research and Treatment". Thanks belong to both these men for contributing like this. I don't beleive anyone, at the outset, intended to begin any sort of argument on the List. But, as things seem to go, the issues get larger and larger until a full scale argument ensues. Causing people to throw up there hands in disgust about the way the whole thing is shaking out. Somehow, we need to find our way back to the original premise. Which was, John Velez bought an important piece of information to the List. Through all sorts of ups and downs his information was verified. The issue as is stands now IMHO, is the next step. What happens now, and who is going to take charge and get something in motion? Is there a researcher or someone with "clout" on this List who feels strongly enough about this to take it on? I hope there is, I would hate to seee this thing just die a slow death again from apathy. Again, as an abductee, thank you to everyone who bothered to get involved in this. Yours, Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: Re: Selling Files From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 07:08:06 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 11:38:07 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files >Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 21:49:58 -0400 >From: Peter, Duke of Mendoza, Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >The Duke of Mendoza presents his <snip> >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Selling Files >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >>I doubt anyone want's others, Insurance Companies, loan >>officers, etc. to be able to get ahold of one's <snip> >But John Velez says <snip> >That is how scientists, with whom ufologists so desperately want >to be compared, operate -- or are supposed to. If the >experimental findings look strange to one's peers, one makes the >laboratory log available if necessary. When that kind of nitty >gritty disappears, as it has done in certain well-known cases >(think cold fusion), the aroma of fetid rodents is rarely far >behind. My Dear Count Murphystophyles: Are forgetting something here? namely, why'nt the Blessed Virgin seed more often in Islamic countries, or conversely why Chupacabras are so seldom seen in the Canadian Yukon. Come to think of it, one might ask why the spirit world avoids the world of film almost entirely. Its a darned shame really. You should see the efforts to save the moribund California Condor. I saw one myself once, it was eating a snake on the way up or down to the Mount Hamilton observatory. Later on, somebody decided it was a simple vulture. I did not argue the point. All I know is that this snake was being badly abducted for caloric and other nutritional reasons, and the bird in question came out of no cage. I am very glad that I never had a ABD experience. I also hope that those who feel they have been abducted will understand my high skepticism as to the material (objective) reality of these events. You know more than anyone else, that you cannot rightfully ask somebody else to believe such a thing. I hope I offended everyone. Worst wishes Self Righteous in Redwood City PS: Dress like a dental patient, show up in daylight hours, and Windows-95 will assume you want your wisdom teeth yanked and sent far far abroad. -LH - - - - - - - - - >Abductology is a rats' graveyard, and most of the rats rot in >shallow graves: hence the stink. Dress like a dead rat. That's OK, but first hide an Alien Earthworm Detector. These are hard to find due to the difficulties of a " discriminator circuit". Hopefully, recent advances in electronics and wormology will help. So far, there is is no record of Space Aliens having decoded the simple signals of a Redwood City earthworm detector.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 09:21:03 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 11:40:44 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Clark >Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 21:49:58 -0400 >From: Peter, Duke of Mendoza, Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Listfolk, >Like Chris "Laugh A Minute" Rutkowski, I mourn the absence of >David Gotlib from this field. Why did he leave it? He was so >good he doesn't rate a single mention in a certain well-lauded >UFO encyclopedia. Whether this was the result of ignorance in >the French or the English senses of the word, only time will >tell. I take it that this is a pointless swipe at my UFO Encyclopedia. I do appreciate, however, Brookesmith's acknowledgement that it has been "well-lauded". Among the loudest lauders was David Gotlib, who praised it mightily and flatteringly both in private to me and in public in his late, lamented newsletter. I also give him credit for one of the better lines the book inspired. Gotlib said that the encyclopedia enabled him finally to make the "crucial distinction" between Richard Haines and Richard Hall. Heretofore, he said, he'd labored under the impression that they were one and the same. Cheers, Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Kaeser From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 11:06:33 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 11:43:09 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Kaeser >Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 03:28:14 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Selling Files - Brookesmith >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Hola Mendoza! >I agree with the core of your statements. But I would like to >introduce two important qualifiers if I may. >a. Transfer of research materials among accredited researchers >is fine and dandy. Not to mention 'necessary' as you have so >aptly pointed out. My qualifier is, it's ok as long as the >"subject's" consent is obtained. That was _not_ the case in this >incident. I'm not a lawyer so I haven't a clue about the >legalities involved, but I do know that there is an ethical >issue here that needs to be addressed communally (amongst >ourselves) immediately. How are defining "accredited researchers"? John Carpenter is probably one of the few prominent researchers that is already bound by medical ethics and could be sued for his actions by former clients (patients). Dr. Gotlib's proposal, developed during the 1994 MIT Conference, seems like a good starting point, and for those who missed the earlier posting, here is the URL for details: http://www.parapsycology.com/dossier/abduct-ethic.shtml Unfortunately, I'm not sure that this type of protection has any teeth in it. >b. It has not yet been determined that "all of the files" that >were sold were solely from Mr. Carpenter's private cache! MUFON >needs to find out if any files from the transcription project >(which Mr Carpenter was in charge of at the time) were included >in the package of 140 cases that were sold to Mr. Bigelow. I have >been communicating with some of the abductees whose files were >sold. They tell me that personal info was _not_ blacked out as >evidenced by a set of files that Bigelow returned at one >subjects request. All of this persons' personal info; name, >address, telephone #, social security #, medical history were >all in plain view. As a researcher he probably has no requirement that he keep MUFON's material seperate from that which he has gathered on his own. Any restrictions would have to be defined up front, but MUFON could have legal recourse if they believe that he has profited from material that belongs to them. However, this becomes less clear if he has included his own interpretation (since that would be considered to be value that he has added to the material). >I just don't want these points to get lost in the ensuing >debate. It can be so easy to forget 'how' or 'why' something got >started after it gets rolling. Which is one reason that I would think we should let the official investigations into this case proceed without a lot of Internet discussion of alleged facts. A number of allegations are being tossed around here and if some of these aren't supported by the facts it could result in a counter suit that might drag numerous people into court to explain themselves. Are the abductees mentioned above prepared to go to court to help defend the statements made about the handling of this matter? I'm curious as to whether anyone has attempted to contact John Carpenter to get his side of this story. Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 7-8-00 From: Rense E-News <jocelyn@the-i.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 07:34:44 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 14:31:05 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 7-8-00 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Jeff Rense Weekly E-News ---------------------------------------------------------------- The Week Ahead 7-9-00 thru 7-16-00 Guests, Announcements, Week's Top Stories From sightings.com Jeff Rense E-News is distributed exclusively by Free Subscription. --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- GUEST CORNER * BAD MOON RISING By Kathleen Keating Some visionaries have mentioned lately that a comet may be approaching earth. One visionary stated that it was believed that Kehoutek might be the comet that would meet the requirements for the Ball of Redemption. This is an ominous sign and could, if it heads toward the earth, be a bona fide precursor to the Warning. A comet or more specifically, two comets are prophesied to collide with the earth in the near future. My research, however, does not indicate that the time is right or that Kehoutek is necessarily one of the "scheduled" comets. There are still more things that have to happen before the larger events arrive. In spring, I mentioned on the air that the Elian Gonzalez ordeal was a piece of the all important puzzle. I stated that because of what was happening to Elian, that we would see relaxed relations with Cuba, which is a significant precursor to those larger and more terrifying events. As we can see in the news, US-Cuban relations are indeed relaxing after forty years of sanctions and cold shoulder diplomacy. Another important factor to consider is China. The turmoil between China and Taiwan along with possible US involvement is a precursor, a serious one. If you couple that with China getting favored nation status and the not so subtle sell-out of America by "allowing" China in on the inside scoop regarding our missile technology among other things, you have not only another precursor to the Warning but the invasion of the United States. Prophecy has been abundantly clear that we will be invaded. This prospect has been verified according to some military experts. They clearly see the handwriting on the wall. However, there are those who hope that most Americans will be unaware of the current posturing on the part of Red China and our government's "look the other way" policy. Obviously, with the latest release of the anti-secret, the forces within the Vatican have made it quite clear to those of us paying attention, that something is happening within its walls. It goes beyond the power struggle of good and evil, John Paul II versus the rising antipope's cohorts. In fact, it goes well past the borders of Rome all the way to the Arizona desert where the Vatican's observatory is located. Both sides of the conflict within the Vatican are keeping their eyes on the skies, just as the late Father Malachi Martin said we should do. They are looking for the comets, as well, knowing that timing is everything. That timing will give way to the Pope's exile and/or alleged death, signaling not only the fiery Ball's appearance but also the "arrival" of the Great Deception, the UFO's. Even the antichrist's gang is busy trying to guess God's timetable regarding the Ball and the upcoming Warning. Colleen Johnston, radio personality and host of her own Night Search Talk Show, mentioned, on the air, that scientists all over the globe, are listening to an anomalous sound being emitted from space. This sound seems to have some intelligence behind it and could very well signify "contact" as many UFO experts hope. On the other side of the coin, this audible signal is the beginning of a horrible end, which will culminate in massive alien invasion. This deadly invasion will no doubt rock our senses and our own perception of reality. Many UFO enthusiasts will be terribly let down when they discover that this deadly deception is just another manifestation of the antichrist's power which will give us a taste of more malicious things to come. That little "signal" is another precursor to the worldwide Warning that God will reveal to us in the near future. Among the other smaller events before the main attraction will be an increase in terrorism and significant earth changes. Whether we recognize these events for what they are is anyone's guess. Through visionaries, Heaven has revealed lately that we have some more time. That time can be used to prepare not only physically but spiritually and mentally for the strange days ahead. Of course, being human means that we tend to put off preparations and get sidetracked in the day-to-day realities. We also tend to get discouraged when the promised larger events don't happen within a month or two. When things don't happen in our timeframe, we dismiss them, forget about them and become preoccupied. Still, most of us can't escape the nagging feeling that something is coming, something big. People are dreaming bizarre dreams about the antichrist, terrorism and as Colleen Johnston mentioned, prison camps. These are the realities of our near future, realities completely foreign to most people. So, whether or not Kehoutek is "the one" or another comet and/or asteroid has our name on it, really doesn't matter. The comets will arrive and we will be witnesses to destruction beyond our imagination. Prison camps already exist and will become our new homes. Terrorism will abound and the unthinkable will become an everyday occurrence. It is best to stay focused in order to cope with the end-times but it is imperative that we focus on the right things. If we stay too focused on the coming events, we run the risk of being immobilized with unnecessary fear. That is not to say that a comet barreling down on the US isn't scary. It is. But we need to converge on the things that really matter, like God and our families. After all, we can't stop the events. They will happen regardless of what we do. However, we can pray that the prevailing horrors will be lessened. We can concentrate on readiness instead of the comet's path or the identity of the antichrist. It is also possible to look through and beyond the lie perpetrated by the Vatican and see the truth that is our destiny. That truth, as the real 3rd Secret of Fatima stated, is our worst fear multiplied exponentially. It is nuclear war, the embodiment of Lucifer in the antichrist and the downfall of the US at the hands of Russia and the Chinese; it is indeed two comets headed toward earth. The truth is also that it is not quite time but it will be soon. (c)2000 KATHLEEN KEATING ALL RIGHTS RESERVED --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- Past and present guests: to be showcased in "The Guest Corner", please email mailto:e-news@the-i.net?Subject=Guest_Corner --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- "Just as your children are not afraid to let you know that they are not perfect (they let you know it night and day), you must not be afraid to let them know that you're not perfect too. The most important thing to let them know is simply that you're there, that you're the one they can trust the most, that you're the best person on the face of the earth to whom they can come and say, "I have a problem." -- Bill Cosby, "Fatherhood" --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- The Fenton Bible The Complete Bible in Modern English, as translated by Ferrar Fenton, is again available. This version is a rare translation and very hard to locate. This reprint is taken from the original plates, an is extraordinarily good quality considering the age of the plates and process of the printing. http://www.hiddenmysteries.com/redir/index104.html --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- TOP STORIES * Just a few of last week's most intriguing! http://sightings.com * UFOs And ETs Said Sighted On Puerto Rican Island * URBAN LEGEND - The Man Who Had No Face * EXCLUSIVE - Diana Murder Coverup Turns Deadly * Chemtrails Over Kelowna, British Columbia * Japan Tainted Milk Scare Widens - Nearly 13,000 Now Sickened * China Is Running Out Of Water - And Time * Deadly Giant Cloned Algae Arrives In California Waters * Full Page USA Today Ad On Illegality Of Income Tax * Hepatitis C Treatment Can Lead To Complete Recovery * Strange Days Indeed! - Celebrity UFO Encounters * Chemtrail Lab Analysis - Virulent Bio-Toxin Soup * American Veterans' Toughest Adversary Is The VA * Chupacabras Reported In Tierra del Fuego - Hundreds Of Dead Animals * EXCLUSIVE - Major Bigfoot Sighting In Southern Oregon * MRI Brain Scans Show True Love To Be An Intoxicant * French Prosecutor Begins Probe Of US Echelon Spy System * New UFO(?) Circles In Canada Discovered * Five Chinese Herbs Proven As Good As Western Drugs Against HIV * 'Aspartame (NutraSweet) Causes Brain Tumors...Beyond A Shadow Of A Doubt' * Barbecues Are Fun - But Think This Over... * High Solar Activity Cuts UFO Sighting Report By Half * Disturbing Evidence Lotterys Are Rigged In Advance * Americans Probe Austrian Lake For Nazi Treasure * Extra Fat Means More Happiness, Better Sex * Thousands Of Worried UK Police Refuse To Give DNA Samples * Masons And Mystery At The 33rd Parallel Read these stories and more at http://www.sightings.com --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- Free Timely Time Management Tips to increase your personal productivity and give you more time and balance for your personal life. Subscribe now at: http://www.topica.com/lists/timemanagement --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- THIS WEEK'S GUESTS * 7-9-00 thru 7-15-00 (Please note Jeff's Guest schedule can change due to late breaking stories, etc). 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Kaeser From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 14:28:54 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 15:25:33 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Kaeser >Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 09:21:03 -0500 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >I also give him credit for one of the better lines the book >inspired. Gotlib said that the encyclopedia enabled him finally >to make the "crucial distinction" between Richard Haines and >Richard Hall. Heretofore, he said, he'd labored under the >impression that they were one and the same. Since all three are Fund for UFO Research Board Members, I'd be interested to know when that revelation became clear. Of course, the full Board hasn't actually met that often... <g> Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Laajala From: Minna Laajala - UFO-Finland <ufofinland@saunalahti.fi> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 21:42:01 +0300 Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 15:31:37 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Laajala >Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 02:42:35 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Lovett >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 12:02:05 -0400 >>From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> >>Subject: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Velez >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 03:56:24 -0400 >>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>Subject: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >><snip> >What you didn't know because you _didn't_ ask is, I have been >getting information from (now 7 of them) the abductees whose >files were sold. They have all been reporting that the personal >info in the files was _not_ "blacked out" at the time of sale as >Andrus and Bigelow claim. To Bigelow's credit files have been >returned to one individual that I know of, but... nothing was >"blacked out." The name, address, social security number, >medical records were all there in plain view. Part of the sale >material included audio and videotapes of hypnosis sessions and >the medical records of many of the abductees. Hi John! This subject really makes you dizzy... Seems this discussion has a new turn to every day, and it�s quite difficult to try to follow we are we (= you?) going today. Because the most mixing question seems to be is there any personal information (= name, address...) sold too, and because you John seem to be the spokesman(?) I would like to ask you straight a couple of things to even try to understand what`s going on. 1) How do these abductees know their own facts were in that material? 2) Have they seen the material, and if so, where and how? 3) Have you seen it? If Carpenter did sell non-identified information I don�t think the nameless information hurts anyone, God help, it might even help the investigations. But if you and your claims about persons personal information is correct, I�ll lift my hat to you. Minna L from Finland UFO-Finland http://www.ufofinland.net ufofinland@saunalahti.fi
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Kaeser From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 14:50:05 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 15:33:14 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Kaeser >Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:06:06 -0400 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Especially for Abductees, who have so many strikes against usas >it is, it is imperative that we swallow whatever differences we >may have and work together for our own common good. When it >comes right down to it, most researchers are wonderful, caring >people who DO put the needs of their Clients firsts. Many of >them are barely making a living at this. Not everyone is a Budd >Hopkins or David Jacobs or John Mack. But the tue, "been there >done that" support can only come from each other. It's like >trying to explain the color blue to a blind man explaining what >an abductee really IS. What it feels like, smells like or looks >like. Only another Abductee will REALY know what you mean. While in general agreement, I would point out that (IMO) researchers have "research subjects", and therapists (along with other professionals) have "clients". This distinction is often overlooked in our discussions. Unless, of course, abductees are paying researchers to work with them (which I suppose is possible, but raises a number of other issues to ponder). Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 14:41:32 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 22:45:20 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Clark >Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 14:28:54 -0400 >From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >Subject: Re: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 09:21:03 -0500 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Selling Files >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Steve, >>I also give him credit for one of the better lines the book >>inspired. Gotlib said that the encyclopedia enabled him finally >>to make the "crucial distinction" between Richard Haines and >>Richard Hall. Heretofore, he said, he'd labored under the >>impression that they were one and the same. >Since all three are Fund for UFO Research Board Members, I'd be >interested to know when that revelation became clear. Of >course, the full Board hasn't actually met that often... <g> Here's the ultimate test: Have you ever seen Dick Haines and Dick Hall in the same room? Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Fleming From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:18:45 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 22:43:15 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Fleming >Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 12:20:15 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Although Canada was >not in a state of war at the time, the files on these crashes >were stamped SECRET. Why? A fellow researcher has made the >suggestion that the atomic bomb which was dropped and detonated >over Quebec by a disabled U.S. plane returning from a base in >the Canadian east coast where many UFO sightings were being made >may have been caused by a UFO too. What?!?! You mean we nuked Canada?? Well, accidents do happen. No hard feelings, I hope. In the future, I'm sure we'll try not to do that sort of thing more often than is absolutely necessary. Seriously, this is a rather sensational statement, to say the least, and I'd be interested to read about whatever basis in fact it may have.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: Further St. Paul Coverage From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 14:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 22:51:56 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Further St. Paul Coverage Greetings list - From: http://www.canoe.ca/EdmontonNews/es.es-07-08-0016.html St. Paul happy to be alien-ated again By DOUG BEAZLEY, EDMONTON SUN Saturday, July 8, 2000 Is that a light in the sky Or just a spark in my heart? Can I accept this as evidence Or would that tear the whole act apart? -- Waiting For the UFOs, by Graham Parker St. Paul is that kind of small northern Alberta town where you can hit the button on your car radio's autotuner and watch it circle the dial endlessly, scanning nothing but static. Put another way: if there's a centre to the universe, St. Paul is a long way from it. The bright yellow canola fields band the horizon, and between them and the next gas station there's not a whole lot to look at around this farming town other than the sky, which is very big. Unless you're Paul Pelletier, town booster and UFO impresario, and you've realized that it's not so much what you see as what you want to see. And Pelletier's idea of a tourist is someone who wants to see aliens. Or has already. "Back in the '70s, the Jaycees here were selling plots on the moon as a fundraiser," said Pelletier, organizer of the St. Paul UFO 2000 conference, an international gathering of paranormal enthusiasts which started here yesterday. He's a grinning, grey-haired man with a quick patter and a thin moustache that gives him the air of a carnival barker. "We never denied it's all about the publicity. But there are a lot of people out there who've experienced things, and here's where they get to exchange information." St. Paul's flirtation with the Other started in 1966, when some guys at a local construction firm decided to take some of the federal Centennial cash floating around and build a cement UFO "landing pad" in the centre of town. Like the giant fibreglass perogy and Easter egg erected in other small Alberta towns, the pad was a source of some local embarrassment. "Before 1993, if I started talking about UFOs and aliens in a coffee shop round here, I'd get a lot of people telling me how they hated that thing," said Pelletier. "Not anymore." The conference idea was Pelletier's. In 1995 the former baker, who'd been the town's Chamber of Commerce director for only a year, sold town council on the idea of establishing a UFO hotline to generate some positive press for St. Paul. "My idea was a 1-900 number, 99 cents a minute, but they turned me down," he said. "The 1-800 number was a huge success. We got press coverage all over the country. Even the BBC called." The hotline gathered calls by the thousands from people who'd seen strange lights, been probed inside of a flying saucer or had their cattle torn to shreds by alien vivisectionists. Pelletier began talking about setting up an international UFO conference - something to get the believers bringing their money into St. Paul. "That first conference (in 1998), we were flying blind. Not much publicity, no Web site," he said. "Then that movie Independence Day came out just prior to the conference, and it helped a whole lot. The conference was a hit." Anybody who once viewed the landing pad as tacky has probably long since moved out of town. Half the businesses on main street deck their windows with flying saucers and huge-eyed aliens during the three-day conference, the same way they put up lights at Christmas. "St. Paul people didn't want to know about it at first," said Karen Maluta of Future Travel. Her window sports a cardboard sign with a bug-eyed Martian and the message, 'Wherever you've travelled from, welcome.' "But the organizers take it very seriously. They don't want the town looking silly. And it's good for business. Besides, maybe there is something out there. Who can say for sure?" "Oh, there's something out there, no doubt," said Pelletier, grinning again. "Aliens? Could be. It's been good for us. But if we hadn't come up with (aliens), I'm sure we'd have thought of something else." --- Best regards, - Blair Cummins ufoblair@hotmail.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 8 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 15:57:13 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 22:47:46 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 12:20:15 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >A fellow researcher has made the >suggestion that the atomic bomb which was dropped and detonated >over Quebec by a disabled U.S. plane returning from a base in >the Canadian east coast where many UFO sightings were being made >may have been caused by a UFO too. An American nuclear bomb was detonated over Quebec? When did that happen? Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 9 UpDate: MJ-12 Silliness From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 17:59:58 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 00:42:24 -0400 Subject: UpDate: MJ-12 Silliness Today I got e-mail about the newer MJ-12 documents, advertising an upcoming paper by the Woods that will, again, attempt to prove that they're authentic. In the e-mail was a link to a web page about these papers, http://www.majesticdocuments.com/ I browsed the site a little, and came across something flagrantly ill-informed, to say the least. There's a page about the documents themselves, and on it is something about a handwritten message from President Franklin Roosevelt to Vannevar Bush, who of course is the scientist most often named as the leader of whatever team studied the alleged UFO debris. If we're to believe this website, he was involved even before the Roswell crash, because it's claimed there was a UFO retrieval in 1942. As possible evidence of this, we're given the handwritten message from Roosevelt. It's on White House stationery, dated "Jan. 19" (no year is given, but the site suggests 1942), and says: V.B OK -- returned --I think you had best keep this in your own safe. FDR The site: http://www.majesticdocuments.com/documents/acrobatversions99.html comments: "This handwritten note shows that FDR returned something to Vannevar Bush to keep in his safe. Unclear what they are talking about but a good handwritten and therefore somewhat checkable note by President Franklin D. Roosevelt." Behind all this, of course, lies the thought that just possibly the note refers to UFO material. As it happens, though, this note is well known. It's not at all "unclear what they are talking about." I learn this from page 388 of a rather famous book by Richard Rhodes, called "The Making of the Atomic Bomb," a history of how the bomb was developed. (Page 388 of the trade paperback edition, anyway.) As background to the note, Rhodes explains that in 1941 the National Academy of Sciences made a brief report to Bush and another scientist named Frank Jewett about the possibility of creating an explosion with a critical mass of Uranium 235 -- or in other words about the science that lies behind the atomic bomb. This was the third report from the NAS on A-bomb-related topics. The note from Roosevelt, Rhodes explains, refers to this report. And indeed the note has great historical significance -- but not because it has anything to do with UFOs. Instead, it's the closest we've got to a formal written authorization to start the research that led to the Manhattan Project, and thus to the bomb. Here's what Rhodes writes: "No document Franklin Delano Roosevelt signed authenticates the fateful decision to expedite research toward an atomic bomb...the archives divulge no smoking gun. The closest the records come to a piece of paper that changed the world is a banality. Bush personally delivered the third National Academy of Sciences report to the President on November 27, 1941. Roosevelt returned it to him two months later with a note on White House stationery written in black ink with a broad-nibbed pen, a note that would communicate only a commonplace of the housekeeping of state secrets except for the authority of its first vernacular expression and the initials it bears." After this, Rhodes prints a copy of the note itself. So the mysterious note is no mystery. Did the Woods do any research on it at all? Sometimes on UpDates I've complained that UFO debates involve various aspects of social science, which both ufologists and skeptics try to deal with without enough social science background, and without reference to whatever work social scientists may have done in the area being discussed. The Woods' work on MJ-12 is apparently yet another example. I'm not a professional social scientist, but just by chance I happened to read Richard Rhodes' book. So I know about the Roosevelt memo. The Woods aren't social scientists either, but they're doing controversial research that involves, among other things, the military and political history of the United States during the 1940's. So they need to know that history. But obviously they don't, because in this case, they managed to miss the most elementary and uncontroversial fact about one of the documents they put on their website. Doesn't give me much confidence in the rest of their work. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 9 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 20:54:55 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 00:57:53 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Hammond >Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 21:49:58 -0400 >From: Peter, Duke of Mendoza, Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Fundamentally, the issue is this: do we want to find out what >lies behind the soi-dissent "abduction" phenomenon -- no matter >where the evidence leads? The answer ought to be a resounding >chorus of "Ayes". >I don't think any truly _objective_ abduction researcher is >going to get very far in assessing any given case without having >to hand a good deal of very personal information about a subject >who's claiming to have been abducted. Nor can other researchers, >from their armchairs or their private orbits, make much of that >first researcher's conclusions without having access to the same >information. (It may be made available in a published report, or >be accessible to persons of honor and integrity; it doesn't >matter how the system works, as long as it's honored, and there >is trust among researchers, regardless of their initial >persuasion -- which is what trust means.) <snip> >I personally can't see a way around intimate details of >abductees being made public, if anyone's to begin to understand >what "abduction" really means. However, I don't, and nor do you, >really need to know that John Velez is _the_ John Velez of New >York City. We could read about, describe or criticize his case >(and I would have, if that's what he'd have preferred) as >"Subject V", or some such label. All that's required is an >agreement between the subject and the researcher that >_identifying_ details be kept confidential. Everything else >_has_ to be up for grabs. Dear Peter: In this post, I speak only for myself and my own opinions on this whole matter, alright? I have no objections whatsoever with researchers sharing abductee's files. In fact only a few weeks ago, on this List, I spoke _for_ the setting up a centralized system of some kind. My problem with all of this is that appears that no one bothered to get any kind of informed consent from the subjects. They (it appears) were not told in advance that their records, which anyone would consider private, were being sold. And they were not given the option to excuse themselves from the whole affair. It's my belief that the field of Abduction research would gain a valuable tool in a central bureau of some kind. Abductees could be assigned a number, with a master sheet, kept private, matching the numbers with the names and addresses of the subjects. I think that in the interest of sound research, the subject's State should be included in the "public" portion. They would then be identified by their number uniformly with any researcher who used that subject for any purpose. Such as, as you say, statistical research. I think with one researcher working in one part of the Country, others in other areas, the time has come, with so many Abductees having now been "subjects" to start pooling all of this raw data. It should be made available to those with proper credentials, after submission of their proposed use of the files, for use in any number of ways. Certainly it would probably be an eye opener for many who are skeptics or are just unsure to see, really for the first time, what is happening. Not in someone's book, or lecture, edited and colored, I believe, by the writer or lecturer's own set of beliefs. But set out in it's raw form, warts and all! As you say, this is how things are done in the scientific community and if one wants to be treated with respect as a true science, then one must first start behaving like a true science. At this point in time, I believe both Abduction and UFO Researchers are not considered so by mainstream science. Far from it, and for good reason. My suggestion is that each researcher create a List of their subjects. Giving whatever particulars they all agree upon as preliminary information. Age, sex, State or Country. They would then be given numbers to assign to each Abductee, contacting the central area for a new number when a new 'subject' is taken on. Each file would also contain another preliminary list regarding the subjects History. What age they began 'experiencing', age when 'first hypnotized', frequency of abductions, types of abductions, and on and on, I'm sure you get the picture. Enough data for the person to decide if he or she wants that file for their work. With this sort of information sharing system in place it would be possible for many people to use this data in any number of ways. The selected files, when asked for, could be sent to that person by the researchers office, perhaps with a time frame for prompt return. I don't see how this would cause harm to anyone as long as they were given a complete explanation, signed an informed consent form, and were given in return a signed document assuring that their privacy would be protected at all times. That at no time would anyone but the researcher him/herself have access to any identifying information such as name, home address or phone number and that no files would leave that office with any of that information included. This is probably just a lovely fantasy on my part, but it sure would be nice! I am as anxious as any skeptic to find out what's happening. There are many days when I question the reality of all this myself. I think that's probably a normal and natural reaction to thinking that you may have actually been taken right out of your own kitchen and whisked away to god knows where. Believe me, I would be just as happy to find out that all this is some sort of as yet discovered illness, with these 'abduction" events as a symptom. At least then maybe someone could come up with a nice little pill that would make it all go away!! That's a hell of a lot easier to think than what I am 99% sure is happening. Which is, that for some unknown reason, beings from another dimension or place have been taking me at will, kidnapping me whenever they please, doing with me whatever they wanted, and then putting me back where they found me. That's pretty much what 'catch and release" is too, when you think about it! Anyway, just some thoughts from a hopeful "abductee". But wouldn't it be wonderful for all concerned if that little fantasy ever became reality? Yours, Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 9 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Stacy From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 20:35:53 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 01:04:05 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Stacy >Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 09:21:03 -0500 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 21:49:58 -0400 >>From: Peter, Duke of Mendoza, Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Selling Files >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Listfolk, >>Like Chris "Laugh A Minute" Rutkowski, I mourn the absence of >>David Gotlib from this field. Why did he leave it? He was so >>good he doesn't rate a single mention in a certain well-lauded >>UFO encyclopedia. Whether this was the result of ignorance in >>the French or the English senses of the word, only time will >>tell. >I take it that this is a pointless swipe at my UFO Encyclopedia. >I do appreciate, however, Brookesmith's acknowledgement that it >has been "well-lauded". Among the loudest lauders was David >Gotlib, who praised it mightily and flatteringly both in private >to me and in public in his late, lamented newsletter. >I also give him credit for one of the better lines the book >inspired. Gotlib said that the encyclopedia enabled him finally >to make the "crucial distinction" between Richard Haines and >Richard Hall. Heretofore, he said, he'd labored under the >impression that they were one and the same. Er, uh, well, yes, I suppose, but what about all those other points raised in Brookesmith's post (about 99.9% of same) that _don't_ directly appertain to the Much-Lauded Encyclopedia (MLE), and which you apparently didn't feel compelled to comment upon? Any personal thoughts or opinions on the other subject matter at hand, as in the title of this thread ("Selling Files")? For the record, I think Brookesmith's post is about as succinct a summary of the abduction investigation/abductee protection problem as we're likely to get, factoring in the Bigelow equation. And forgiving, of course, some of the purple prose. Would you care to personally address those issues (as opposed to citing others), rather than any perceived (or actual) pointless swipes at the MLE? Just for starters, now that you've told us what Dr. Gotlib thinks of the MLE, how about an equally relevant comment as to what he thinks about the current state of UFO abduction investigations, patient/client relationships, a code of ethics, routine use of hypnosis by unlicensed practitioners, selling of files, and so on? Do you think he is perhaps punch-happy with the present state of affairs Brookesmith addressesd or not? But who cares, as long as he now knows his Haines from his Hall. That's the important thing. Eh? Dennis Stacy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 9 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Brookesmith From: Peter Brookesmith, Duke of Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 21:14:26 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 01:08:02 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Brookesmith With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza: >Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 03:28:14 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Selling Files - Brookesmith >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Hola Mendoza! Huwhaaa hoooo, Juan m'boy. >a. Transfer of research materials among accredited researchers >is fine and dandy. Not to mention 'necessary' as you have so >aptly pointed out. My qualifier is, it's ok as long as the >"subject's" consent is obtained. That was _not_ the case in >this incident. We agree about the matter of consent. I'd guess we agree that as neither warning was given of, nor consent given to, this -- let's say -- unforeseen circumstance, if indeed it has occurred, then the ultimate providers of those 140 files have every reason to be incensed. But right there in that paragraph you let loose a problematic but central hare (as Steve Kaeser also notes). Who is an "accredited researcher"? Who judges the qualification? Can you see Hopkins, Jacobs, or Mack turning over their files to the likes of Klass, Kottmeyer, Rimmer, Sheaffer or me -- although we have all made our bones in various ways in abduction research? I can't. As I know both Budd & David read this list, I look forward to their correcting or confirming my suspicion, with their fulsome reasons therefor, and customary courtesy. If "abduction research" in general were conducted along anything like conventional scholarly or scientific lines -- i.e. openly -- I wouldn't have to raise this question, you (John) wouldn't be in a rage at Carpenter's alleged sale, 140 alleged "abductees" wouldn't be feeling betrayed, and indeed (here I feel ike shouting) neither Carpenter nor Bigelow would have needed to indulge in their tawdry alleged transaction in the first place. You say: "Ufology sucks." I agree. But "ufology" has brought this state of affairs into being because of the way it conducts its business. >b. [...snip...] I have been communicating with some of the >abductees whose files were sold. They tell me that personal >info was _not_ blacked out as evidenced by a set of files >that Bigelow returned at one subjects request. I know it will seem unkind to many to say so, but those imparting this kind of information should have protected themselves in the first place -- by ensuring that their identities were to be obscured in the event that any of their information were to be disseminated (in whatever form). They must have understood that this could happen: there are very few abduction researchers (I can think of but one, and he would not appreciate my even mentioning his name) who, for whatever motive, are simply going to sit on their findings. If the subjects did not so protect themselves, they were unfortunately -- yes, understandably, but nonethless -- a trifle naive. This doesn't relieve the researcher of any duty of care, of course. That is why it is a moral rather than a legal problem. I am only trying to labor the point that _both_ sides have a responsibility in this. Perhaps this sordid little episode will encourage some on both sides (as 'twere) to think more carefully in future. >My very warmest regards to the Duke, his Duchess, and all >their many equine wards. <VBG> Thankyou, and may all your pussycats be happy too. Best wishes Percheron D. Manxtail Botfly Reservoir
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 9 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Brookesmith From: The Duke of Mendoza, Peter Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 21:14:30 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 01:12:12 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Brookesmith With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza: >Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 09:21:03 -0500 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >I take it that this is a pointless swipe at my >UFO Encyclopedia. For those unaware, perhaps like the Boy Bishop of Canby, I was alluding to the difference between French "ignore" (I do not know) and English "ignore" (I disregard). The question, still unanswered, was why Jerome made no mention of David Gotlib in his Encyclopedia (among whose lauders I count myself, as Jerome should well know because I wrote and told him what a fine achievement I thought it, on receipt of the first edition). Gotlib's "Bulletin of Anomalous Phenomena" was a real goldmine of information and intelligent commentary on "abductions" and possibly related phenomena, and I persist in finding it strange that he and it are unmentioned in Jerome's magnum opus. "BAE" was too good to be covered by the otherwise reasonable excuse that one can't cover everything in 1000 pages, or whatever. Gotlib's generosity in his own praise of Jerome's admirable, prodigious if (inevitably) imperfect work only makes Gotlib's absence from the Clark Codex more piquant. I'd still like to know why "BAE" never resumed publication. As for Haines and Hall, try this one for size. I understand that some aficionados of the footnotes of Flann O'Brien's "The Third Policeman" harbor uncontrolled suspicions that Jerome Clark and Robert Todd are the same person. Ask for proof and I will show you a blood sport. Best wishes Pushyourbuttons D. Mixit Sensitive Soul
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 9 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 00:33:15 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 07:26:04 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Clark >Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 21:14:30 -0400 >From: The Duke of Mendoza, Peter Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 09:21:03 -0500 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Selling Files >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>I take it that this is a pointless swipe at my >>UFO Encyclopedia. Listfolk: >For those unaware, perhaps like the Boy Bishop of Canby, I was >alluding to the difference between French "ignore" (I do not >know) and English "ignore" (I disregard). Pointless Brookesmith swipe no. 2, though not the first time he has used the tired ad hominem above. I do confess to living in Canby (Minnesota), but am neither a bishop nor, at 53, a boy. Not only an insult, but a particularly meaningless one. Being a grown-up, I won't respond in kind. >The question, still unanswered, was why Jerome made no mention >of David Gotlib in his Encyclopedia (among whose lauders I count >myself, as Jerome should well know because I wrote and told him >what a fine achievement I thought it, on receipt of the first >edition). Gotlib's "Bulletin of Anomalous Phenomena" was a real >goldmine of information and intelligent commentary on >"abductions" and possibly related phenomena, and I persist in >finding it strange that he and it are unmentioned in Jerome's >magnum opus. "BAE" was too good to be covered by the otherwise >reasonable excuse that one can't cover everything in 1000 pages, >or whatever. Whatever just about says it. If you have nothing better to do than to allow yourself to be consumed with angst over the matter, please address your concerns to Eddie Bullard, who wrote the abduction entry. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 9 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Clark From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 01:44:15 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 07:34:00 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Clark >Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 09:21:03 -0500 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 21:49:58 -0400 >>From: Peter, Duke of Mendoza, Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Selling Files >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Listfolk, >>Like Chris "Laugh A Minute" Rutkowski, I mourn the absence of >>David Gotlib from this field. Why did he leave it? He was so >>good he doesn't rate a single mention in a certain well-lauded >>UFO encyclopedia. Whether this was the result of ignorance in >>the French or the English senses of the word, only time will >>tell. >I take it that this is a pointless swipe at my UFO Encyclopedia. >I do appreciate, however, Brookesmith's acknowledgement that it >has been "well-lauded". Among the loudest lauders was David >Gotlib, who praised it mightily and flatteringly both in private >to me and in public in his late, lamented newsletter. >I also give him credit for one of the better lines the book >inspired. Gotlib said that the encyclopedia enabled him finally >to make the "crucial distinction" between Richard Haines and >Richard Hall. Heretofore, he said, he'd labored under the >impression that they were one and the same. Jerry, Excuse me for butting in before you've had a chance to reply to my earlier post, but I meant to include the following comments in same. I'm sure you know how this e-mail business stuff goes... The fact is, you never answer Brookesmith's question about the absence of a single mention of Gotlib in your encyclopedia. (Never mind an entry, I couldn't find him in the index, either.) You could have said any of the following (or your own variation thereof): a) I'm sure anyone can appreciate how vast a subject matter I was dealing with; some omissions were only to be expected. b) While aware of Gotlib and his "late, lamented newsletter," The Bulletin of Anomalous Experience, same simply escaped me in the end, for which I apologize, see above. c) I meant to, but...see a and b above. d) Mea culpa...hey, these things happen, as anyone who's ever tried to write a book well knows. Your answer, instead, is that Gotlib liked the book! Which is no answer at all to the originally posed question. What if he had disliked it? The question isn't what he _thought_ of it -- but whether he's in it or not, and if not, why not? Only you can answer that. But don't pass the buck to Gotlib, as if he were somehow validating his own absence. If you don't want to answer the question, just say so. But don't pretend that you have when you haven't. We didn't all fall off turnip trucks yesterday. Deep in cabbage country, Dennis Stacy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 9 UpDate: UFOs Fact or Fiction? Internet Program Wants To Know From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 08:43:39 +0200 Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 07:36:41 -0400 Subject: UpDate: UFOs Fact or Fiction? Internet Program Wants To Know Source: Business Wire. Stig *** Is Truth Really Stranger Than Fiction? If So, "Weird Galaxy" Wants to Know! Updated 3:31 PM ET July 7, 2000 WESTLAKE VILLAGE, Calif. (ENTERTAINMENT WIRE) - Have you ever seen a UFO? Had a "close shave" with Big Foot? Spent time building sand castles on Mars? Well, "Weird Galaxy" wants to hear your story! Later this year, GalaxyOnline.com -- the world's leading science fiction and science fact supersite -- is launching a new animated Internet program titled "Weird Galaxy" that will humorously uncover the uncanny, unusual and unexpectedly strange universe around us. Visitors to GalaxyOnline.com will find a button on the site's main page offering them an opportunity to submit their inexplicable experiences for consideration. Series producer Andrew Koenig will choose those tales that are the most curious and compelling. "We know that truth is often stranger than fiction," said Koenig. "Weird Galaxy offers those individuals who have had amazing paranormal adventures a forum where they can tell their stories on the World Wide Web. We'll telephone the people with the most interesting tales, and play back their comments with animation." "Weird Galaxy" will be formatted like a newscast, with an animated announcer relating each story. Each episode of the comedy-oriented program, which will be available on an on-demand basis for individual consumers, will combine viewer submissions with scripts written by Koenig. "I guarantee that, if we're intrigued by what we see on the submission form, we'll be in touch," noted Koenig wryly. "Just like the `Men in Black,' only nicer!" GalaxyOnline.com is a division of Galaxy Online Inc, a Westlake Village, Calif.-based company at the forefront of the Internet revolution. Utilizing broadband technology, Galaxy Online combines the best attributes of an online entertainment network and a "traditional" Internet supersite. GalaxyOnline.com provides consumers with entertainment, education, exploration, information, products and services on a one-to-one, on-demand basis. For further information on "Weird Galaxy" or GalaxyOnline.com, visit the GalaxyOnline.com Web site, or contact J. Clare Hollenbeck at 805/557-0840. Contact: GalaxyOnline.com J. Clare Hollenbeck, 805/557-0840 ---------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------- Copyright � 2000 At Home Corporation. All rights reserved. Excite, @Home, and the Excite and @Home logos are registered service marks of At Home in the U.S. and other countries.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 9 UpDate: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 - Bruni From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 13:07:46 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 08:56:31 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 - Bruni >Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 04:56:47 -0700 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 22:50:15 +0100 >>From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 - Hatch >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 01:02:41 -0700 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >>>Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Did Leslie have anything to say about his present perception of >>>Adamski and/or his contactee claims? <snip> >>However, Nick tells me that >>he will be covering this issue in his August column. <snip> >Is there some way we might learn more, without waiting for Nick >Pope to come out with another newsletter? Maybe someone on this list attended the conference, sorry I can't help, but I didn't attend. Greetings Georgina Bruni
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 9 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 00:19:10 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 08:57:34 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Clark >Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 20:35:53 -0500 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Selling Files - Clark >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 09:21:03 -0500 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Selling Files >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 21:49:58 -0400 >>>From: Peter, Duke of Mendoza, Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >>>Subject: Selling Files >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >But who cares, as long as he now knows his Haines from his Hall. >That's the important thing. Whatever. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 9 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 Silliness - Bruni From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 13:07:48 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 08:59:46 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 Silliness - Bruni >Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 17:59:58 -0400 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >Subject: MJ-12 Silliness >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >"This handwritten note shows that FDR returned something to >Vannevar Bush to keep in his safe. Unclear what they are talking >about but a good handwritten and therefore somewhat checkable >note by President Franklin D. Roosevelt." >Behind all this, of course, lies the thought that just possibly >the note refers to UFO material. >As it happens, though, this note is well known. It's not at all >"unclear what they are talking about." I learn this from page >388 of a rather famous book by Richard Rhodes, called "The >Making of the Atomic Bomb," a history of how the bomb was >developed. (Page 388 of the trade paperback edition, anyway.) Dear Greg Well done! You have a point, that was a good find. I was also thinking that the documents (or some of them) were related to the bomb project. But then if certain of these documents concerning the bomb project are genuine,why is the UFO material not genuine? I think the Woods are doing a very fine research job on those documents. It's a slow process. BTW, they have discovered that one of the people on the photographs is Beria, head of KGB at the time. I have checked this picture against other pictures of Beria and have to agree.Beria was in charge of the Russian bomb project at the time, so it's possible that some of the documents in the files are related to this project. It would be interesting to know who the others on the photographs are. According to my findings, the word "back channel" which is written on the photographs, was used before WWII by the intelligence agencies. Apparently it was an undercover term used to describe people they used as a link to the main source. For instance, I'm told they use this in times of war, so that leaders can interact via that party. It stands to reason that Beria would act as a go between, especially as he was Stalin's right hand man. Now who would be America's back channel? Well, the head of the American bomb project was said (according to Beria's son) to have stayed at Beria's house,where he shared America's bomb secrets with Beria! But then why would America want to share her secrets when we are told that the bomb project was top secret? Russia did manage to discover America's bomb secrets however. It's worth noting that later - General Twining was also a visitor to Russia (1959) where he, and the then leader, spent the night drinking whisky and discussing defence matters... and isn't he another one who is mentioned in the documents? So the photographs may have nothing to do with the UFO story, but then, if America and Russia were concerned about the UFO's, it would be an ideal way of sharing that information, by using a back channel. I doubt America would require a back channel for exchanging information regarding the bomb project. So it is possible that these people were used to exchange UFO information. If back channels were used for the bomb project then there might be a bigger story here. Georgina Bruni
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 9 UpDate: BAE Available On CD-ROM From: SMiles Lewis <elfis@austin.rr.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 08:24:18 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 12:37:36 -0400 Subject: UpDate: BAE Available On CD-ROM http://users.jagunet.com/~dgotlib/bae.htm Bulletin of Anomalous Experience: The Complete Collection on CD-ROM Bulletin of Anomalous Experience (BAE for short), began in 1990 as a bimonthly forum for dialogues between for therapists and scientists interested in the UFO abduction experience, and paranormal experiences in general. BAE quickly evolved from a 8-10 page newsletter of opinions to a 20 to 36 page newsletter chock-full of original articles of opinion and research, detailed book reviews of new publications, reviews of mainstream scientific literature relevant to the study of anomalies, and personal introductions and brief bios of the participants. Experiencers had their own section to share their points of view and critique the material. Hilary Evans, a frequent contributor and supporter, described BAE as �comfortably treading the narrow path between the groves of academia and the dust and heat of the marketplace, inquiring and suggesting, not asserting or insisting.� BAE sided neither with the skeptics nor the true believers; instead its guiding principle was the conviction that understanding the abduction experience was an eminently worthwhile scientific enterprise, and one way to accomplish this was to develop a synergy by inviting the most thoughtful and diverse thinkers in the field to participate in BAE�s virtual �roundtable.� As I review the five-year, 31-issue collection (over 500 pages in all) I still think it is unique in the field for its depth and breadth of study of the abduction experience, the range of opinions expressed (with a high degree of professionalism), and the regular inclusion of material from mainstream scientific journals were intended to help readers and researchers strengthen their knowledge base and critical faculties. I have decided to archive the complete set on CDROM and offer the collection for sale. The CDROM contains scanned images of each page of the issue, in JPEG format. The pages are readable in any web browser, or in image viewers like LviewPro. An index of all the items in the five-year run is included. Below are a sample of topics covered in the five-year run: * Review of the Fantasy Prone Personality hypothesis * The work of Michael Persinger * Evolution of public opinion on UFOs by Robert Durant * The Extraordinary Encounter Continuum Hypothesis And Its Implications For The Study Of Belief Materials, by Peter Rojcewicz * Alternate World Syndrome by Michael Heim * Alien abduction workload * Essays by Martin Kottmeyer * Symptoms of Alien Abduction? Impressions and Misgivings, by Michael Grosso * Man mounts alien defence in child molestation case * Seeing things: The meaningfulness of �mass hallucination� by Steve Mizrach * Astrology, abductions and NDEs by Robert Kimball * Some spiritual resonances in encounter recollections: Cognizance of the pathology of guild and healing, by Edward Carlos * Symbolic messages � a study of alien writing by Mario Pazzagllini * The men in black experience and tradition � analogues with the traditional devil hypothesis by Peter Rojcewicz * Contemporary issues concerning the scientific study of consciousness, by Imants Baruss * Dissociation and memory: A two hundred year perspective * Street lamp interference effect, by Hilary Evans * A cerebral dominance explanation for transpersonal experiences by David Ritchey * The Italian Martians, an early alien encounter by Hilary Evans Reviews of the scientific literature included * Extensive discussion of the 'False Memory Syndrome' and its relationship to hypnotic regression and abduction treatment and research * Hypnotic regresssion to childhood and infancy � a literature review * Recent abstracts of interest * Dissociated states of wakefulness and sleep * Episodic psychic symptoms in the geneneral population * The polygraph * Exploding head syndrome (it�s not what you think!) Experiencer' Section included discussions of * How are experiencer�s needs being met * On comparing disbelief of the holocaust to disbelief of anomalous experiences * Symbolic and mythical components of the abduction experience * Alien abductions and childhood sexual abuse Ordering Information The cost for the CDROM is * Canadian and US orders: US$20 postpaid (money order preferred) * Outside North America: US$23 by money order only Send to: David Gotlib 614 South Hanover Street Baltimore MD 21230-3821 Need more information: Email me at dgotlib@jagunet.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 9 UpDate: A Deserved Apology To The List And EBK From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 13:35:17 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 16:28:49 -0400 Subject: UpDate: A Deserved Apology To The List And EBK Dear Listers and EBK; Please accept my apologies for allowing my emotions to get the best of me. Emotion and reason don't mix. And when there is emotion in me that _strong_, the logic is abducted. I like the standup comedy routine I once heard and never forgot. It's about the guy who went out to have a few with his friends at the local tavern. One led to another, and another... each new round bringing out the Gripple-addled reasoning, "Well, it's only 2 AM! I can have 'just one more' and still get home in time to get up for work." He does get home in time for work. But to leave for it that is. And the last words out of his mouth are, "I swear. I will _never, ever_ let this happen again as long as I live. So help me God!" Amen. As a Sicilian and an abductee, I share two curses. The first is a Mediterranean temper and the second is a hatred of hurt. The two are incompatible. Which is the reason I am cursed. It's like perceiving you have been abducted. Your intellect, conceived, written and directed by a decent education and a fair amount of study tells you none of it can have happened. Your memory tells you otherwise. So I am used to oxymoron's. Except when they come out to play in someone else's hand. So, please, help me God. In this case, God is the famous Errol Bruce Kanapp. I've decided not to take his show and this list over, like I promised. _I_ wouldn't be the same without him. Maybe you should edit my book Errol! Nah! Stick to editing this list. Some of us are less dangerous that way. Jim Mortellaro
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 10 UpDate: UFO TV Documentaries? From: Ian Read <i.read@i-read.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 22:35:42 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:30:27 -0400 Subject: UpDate: UFO TV Documentaries? Hello, I am currently working on my UFO web site, and I am planning on having a section devoted to respectable documentaries that have been produced on UFOs. So if you have any views on what documentaries are worth watching etc. My personally favourites are the 1995 Network First special and the 'Riddles of The Skies' series of a few years back. Ian.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 10 UpDate: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 22:48:15 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:31:31 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? I recent acquired from a second-hand CD and video shop, a 1993 video entitled, "The UFO Phenomenon", by Labyrinth Media Ltd. Always curious if these older productions might contain worthwhile/little-known material, I've only got so far as the Arnold case and would you believe it... Not only does this video feature some aerial footage of Mt. Rainier, Little Tahoma et al - and apparently taken from a comparable location to Arnold's position - the brief narrative, which is an actor's 'voice-over' and apparently supposed to be a verbatim Kenneth Arnold testimony, is an account I've never heard before. Of even more interest - if actually drawn by Arnold - is a sketch I've previously neither seen or heard about. Using a digital camera, I've eventually managed to capture a flicker-free copy of the on-screen image and this can be seen at: http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/arnold/arn_new.jpg Can anyone identify this drawing/where and when it originated? James Easton. E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk www.ufoworld.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 10 UpDate: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 18:22:45 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:33:47 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 - Bourdais >Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 04:56:47 -0700 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 22:50:15 +0100 >>From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 - Hatch >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 01:02:41 -0700 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >>>Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Desmond Leslie! That is interesting. >>>>Did Leslie have anything to say about his present perception of >>>>Adamski and/or his contactee claims? >>>>Does he accept the Adamski story now, or has he come to distance >>>>himself from all this over so many years? I would bet Leslie is >>>>asked about this all the time. >>>>I assume he must have accepted Adamski's claims in the 1950s; >>>>tacitly enough at least to co-author a book. >>Hi Larry >>Re the Italian conference; I'm only posting on behalf of Nick >>Pope who is not on-line, sorry I was not at the conference and >>am unable to answer your questions. However, Nick tells me that >>he will be covering this issue in his August column. >Thank you Georgina! >I'm sure many of us would be interested in any more we can learn >about Leslie's opinions at this late date. >Is there some way we might learn more, without waiting for Nick >Pope to come out with another newsletter? Well, I was there. In a few words, Desmond Leslie (who is a very nice person) still believes that there is truth in Adamski's story. But he admitted in his public speech that Adamski was also capable of telling tall tales. If Desmond Leslie is right, then this is a case where a witness has been both telling truths and lies.... As an example of truth, Leslie cited his visit to the Pope in Rome, which he believes to be authentic. If I remember well, he said that Adamski showed to a mutual friend a gold medal that the Pope had given to him. The Pope was delighted to see him, Adamski said, because he "had been told" that he would have such a visitor who would talk to him about our extraterrestrial friends... At the end of his speech, Leslie told that Adamski had revealed, at the end of his life, that he was not born on Earth : he had been brought at the age of three, and he did not have a navel! I can hear already the loud laughters. And, please, don't say I believe this : I don't know. Gildas Bourdais
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 10 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Selling Files From: Peter Brookesmith, Duke of Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 18:50:01 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:35:22 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Selling Files With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza: >Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 00:33:15 -0500 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Selling Files - Brookesmith >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>"BAE" was too good to be covered by the otherwise >>reasonable excuse that one can't cover everything in 1000 >>pages, or whatever. >Whatever just about says it. If you have nothing better to do >than to allow yourself to be consumed with angst over the >matter, please address your concerns to Eddie Bullard, who >wrote the abduction entry. What?? Okay, Jerry: if you can't answer the question directly, let's try the indirect, tacking approach. To make life easier for you, I have appended little boxes for you to tick or otherwise mark when answering the following questions. Please mark only one box for each question. I believe this is called a "multiple choice questionnaire" and that even those of the meanest intelligence find such things not too much of a challenge. You're not the only one who can put on pompous, dismissive and patronizing airs, old fruit. 1. In your experience, do editors of large scale works such as encyclopedias take final responsibility for their content? [ ] YES [ ] NO [ ] DON'T KNOW [ ] DON'T CARE [ ] YES, BUT NOT ME, NO SIR [ ] ASK EDDIE BULLARD 2. Was Eddie Bullard the Editor of "The UFO Encyclopedia" as published in two editions by Omnigraphics in the 1990s? [ ] YES [ ] NO [ ] DON'T KNOW [ ] DON'T CARE [ ] YES, BUT I GOT MOST OF THE MONEY AND MY NAME ON THE COVER [ ] ASK EDDIE BULLARD 3. Was Eddie Bullard responsible for all entries concerning abductions, abductees, abduction researchers, commentators on abduction cases, in the said UFO encyclopedia? [ ] YES [ ] NO [ ] DON'T KNOW [ ] DON'T CARE [ ] NO, BUT IT'S EASIER TO PASS THE BUCK [ ] ASK EDDIE BULLARD 4. Had you ever read the "Bulletin of Anomalous Phenomena" before attending the MIT conference you and Gotlib attended? [ ] YES [ ] NO [ ] DON'T KNOW [ ] DON'T CARE [ ] YES, BUT IT WAS ALL OVER MY HEAD [ ] ASK EDDIE BULLARD 5. Of the publication run, how many copies of the "Bulletin of Anomalous Phenomena" would you estimate you had read? [ ] NONE [ ] FEWER THAN TEN [ ] DON'T KNOW [ ] DON'T CARE. IT DIDN'T MENTION ETs ENOUGH ANYWAY [ ] ALL OF THEM [ ] ASK EDDIE BULLARD 6. What is your opinion of the "Bulletin of Anomalous Phenomena"? [ ] A CONTRIBUTION TO THE FIELD OF FRONT-RANK IMPORTANCE [ ] WELL IT'S OKAY BUT I DON'T SEE MY NAME IN IT [ ] IT WAS QUITE NICE ABOUT MY FRIENDS [ ] IT HAD A LOT OF TYPOS AND SPELLING ERORS (SIC) [ ] I PREFER "KNAVE" [ ] ASK EDDIE BULLARD 7. Are you actually the Jerome Clark who edited "The UFO Encyclopedia" as published in two editions by Omnigraphics in the 1990s, or was that Robert Todd in his alter ego as Jerome Clark, which explains why Todd was too modest to mention his own large contribution to ufological research in the said work? [ ] YES [ ] NO [ ] DON'T KNOW. MY TRUE REAL NAME IS ED STEWART [ ] DON'T CARE. I HAVE NEVER MET JEROME CLARK IN MY LIFE [ ] SOMETIMES I REALLY WISH I WERE ROBERT TODD [ ] ASK EDDIE BULLARD 8. Do you agree that it would have been easier to give a straight answer to a simple question than to have to wade through all this, get in yet another pointless rage about that asshole Mendoza, think up a supercilious reply, get harrassed by the Sasquatch of San Antonio into the bargain, get depressed because no one understands you, wonder what it was you did wrong in a previous life, have to answer all this stuff as deviously as possible yet again, and so on? [ ] YES [ ] NO [ ] DON'T KNOW. SHOW ME A FENCE, WATCH - I'LL SIT ON IT [ ] DON'T CARE. ALL THESE OTHER UFOLOGISTS ARE JUST PLEBS ANYWAY [ ] WHY DIDN'T I VOLUNTEER FOR THE NAM? [ ] ASK DENNIS STACY Those answering the questionnaire may find it helpful to know that the word "angst" means "fear". best wishes Pedantry D. Mirthfulness Friend to the Stars
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 10 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 Silliness - Bruni From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 18:58:03 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:36:51 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 Silliness - Bruni >Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 13:07:48 +0100 >From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 Silliness >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Dear Greg >Well done! You have a point, that was a good find. I was also >thinking that the documents (or some of them) were related to >the bomb project. But then if certain of these documents >concerning the bomb project are genuine, why is the UFO material >not genuine? I'm very far from being an authority on anything in this area. But at least I know a few things about the Roosevelt memo, thanks to Richard Rhodes. And one of the things I know is that the Woods weren't the first to reveal it to the world. After all, it was published in the Richard Rhodes book, which first appeared in 1986. Rhodes footnotes the memo to a collection of Vannevar Bush documents in the National Archives. So its provenance is known. There's no reason to think it wouldn't be genuine. The UFO documents are a different story. Their provenance isn't known; they reached the Woods from sources that can't be checked; they aren't independently known (as the Roosevelt memo is) to established scholars. They're a completely different animal from whatever bomb-related documents the Woods have published or talked about. >I think the Woods are doing a very fine research job on those >documents. Why, if they're doing such fine research, didn't they know what the Roosevelt memo was? I'd be curious to know -- just speculating here -- if it came to them in the same way the MJ-12 documents were. Maybe they thought they'd found something new, and possibly revealing. But however the document came to their attention, they apparently didn't do their homework. They apparently didn't try to find out whether anyone knew the document's history. (Or if they tried, they didn't do a very good job.) And, you know...I hope I don't sound like too much of a curmudgeon here, but I don't think this find of mine matters very much. By chance, I read the Richard Rhodes book, and happened to remember the document. But it's not my responsibility to investigate stray FDR documents. Nor is it Georgina's job, or even the Woods' job. Yes, we all have to know what the historical facts are, if we're doing ufological research that involves any area of history. But the people who know those historical facts are professional historians, and they're the ones we ought to be consulting, rather than speculating ourselves. If we don't do that, we're simply amateurs. Maybe established scholars will prove too conservative to go down the ultimate UFO road, if such a thing is out there to be discovered. But they'll at least save us from silly mistakes. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 10 UpDate: Re: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 7-8-00 - Goldstein From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:38:13 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:40:44 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 7-8-00 - Goldstein >Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 07:34:44 +0000 >From: Rense E-News <jocelyn@the-i.net> >Subject: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 7-8-00 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >---------------------------------------------------------------- > Jeff Rense Weekly E-News >---------------------------------------------------------------- > > The Week Ahead > 7-9-00 thru 7-16-00 > Guests, Announcements, Week's Top Stories > From sightings.com > Jeff Rense E-News is distributed > exclusively by Free Subscription. > > --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- > GUEST CORNER * > BAD MOON RISING > By Kathleen Keating >Some visionaries have mentioned lately that a comet may be >approaching earth. One visionary stated that it was believed >that Kehoutek might be the comet that would meet the >requirements for the Ball of Redemption. This is an ominous sign >and could, if it heads toward the earth, be a bona fide >precursor to the Warning. <snip> > TOP STORIES * > Just a few of last week's most intriguing! > http://sightings.com >* UFOs And ETs Said Sighted On Puerto Rican Island >* URBAN LEGEND - The Man Who Had No Face >* EXCLUSIVE - Diana Murder Coverup Turns Deadly >* Chemtrails Over Kelowna, British Columbia >* Japan Tainted Milk Scare Widens - Nearly 13,000 Now Sickened >* China Is Running Out Of Water - And Time >* Deadly Giant Cloned Algae Arrives In California Waters >* Full Page USA Today Ad On Illegality Of Income Tax >* Hepatitis C Treatment Can Lead To Complete Recovery >* Strange Days Indeed! - Celebrity UFO Encounters >* Chemtrail Lab Analysis - Virulent Bio-Toxin Soup >* American Veterans' Toughest Adversary Is The VA >* Chupacabras Reported In Tierra del Fuego - Hundreds Of Dead > Animals >* EXCLUSIVE - Major Bigfoot Sighting In Southern Oregon >* MRI Brain Scans Show True Love To Be An Intoxicant >* French Prosecutor Begins Probe Of US Echelon Spy System >* New UFO(?) Circles In Canada Discovered >* Five Chinese Herbs Proven As Good As Western Drugs Against HIV >* 'Aspartame (NutraSweet) Causes Brain Tumors...Beyond A Shadow > Of A Doubt' >* Barbecues Are Fun - But Think This Over... >* High Solar Activity Cuts UFO Sighting Report By Half >* Disturbing Evidence Lotterys Are Rigged In Advance >* Americans Probe Austrian Lake For Nazi Treasure >* Extra Fat Means More Happiness, Better Sex >* Thousands Of Worried UK Police Refuse To Give DNA Samples >* Masons And Mystery At The 33rd Parallel <snip> THIS WEEK'S GUESTS * > 7-9-00 thru 7-15-00 > (Please note Jeff's Guest schedule can > change due to late breaking stories, etc). >SUN 7-9 > Dr. Matthew James, MD: A Homeschooling Odyssey >MON 7-10 > Dan Sheehan: The Carter UFO Revelations >TUE 7-11 > Peter Davenport: National UFO Center Report >WED 7-12 > Carl Limbacher: Inside Cover NewsMax.com > Walter Burien: CAFR's - The Trillion Dollar Deception >THU 7-13 > Clifford Carnicom: Chemtrails Over America >FRI 7-14 > Brad Steiger: A Paranormal Evening >Live Real Audio Broadcasts & Archives: http://www.sightings.com Dear EBK and listfolks, Jeff Rense's post on this list disturbs me and causes me to raise a question. Why is it on the list? The page usually opens with Mr. Rense's morbid fears as conveyed through seers, visionaries, and other prophets of apocalyptic doom. Now I am not calling them wackos but I imagine many people would. Unless we are simply fools ignoring the approaching end times and destruction. Sure, I know it has been prophesized for a couple of thousand years. Those predictions came and went and nothing happened. But look how immoral we have become now. Perhaps it will arrive as I write this. I'll say good bye now in case that happens. OK, I got to the end of the sentence, so far so good. Why do I read that stuff and not just delete? Why should I have to delete stuff that seems like it shouldn't be on here in the first place? Sure, his service is presenting news stories and announcing guests, but take another look. Out of 26 news stories from last week only 3 seem to be UFO related. I know, the Chupacabra may be UFO related, so I concede a possible 4th story. I bow to the Gods who reside in El Yunque. Only 2 days this week are UFO guests listed on his radio show. Why can't it be requested of Mr. Rense that he just post stories and announce guests that are UFO related? He could write posts like anyone else. Why does his production get a free forum on here to spew these apocalyptic "prophecies" and extreme right wing "patriot" paranoia? He also gets to advertise the goods he sells. If I want to get snitty, why don't I start posting prophecies and visions on here also? Sure I'll follow it with a UFO related tidbit. Why don't you start posting them? Why don't we all? Let's have fun deleting. Personally, I feel very uncomfortable about anyone acting as a conduit of UFO information who has such extreme views and a lack of journalism standards. I would not appear on his show. How do you feel about the above? Josh Goldstein UFO Love Parade uber Berlin
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 10 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Brookesmith From: Peter Brookesmith, Duke of Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 20:25:05 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:43:16 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Brookesmith With the Duke of Mendoza's compliments: >Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 20:54:55 -0400 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Re: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Anyway, just some thoughts from a hopeful "abductee". But >wouldn't it be wonderful for all concerned if that little >fantasy ever became reality? Dear Liz: Yes, it would, and the spirit of what you say, if not the detailed proposal, is remarkably close to that of John Velez's contribution to my book on abductions (and indeed what he's said elsewhere). But it won't happen as long as abductologists have an interest in proving a particular case (in the sense of demonstrating an argument, even following an agenda) rather than offering findings for comment & further investigation. For example. Years ago -- on this List I think -- it was revealed that the "drop" for the communications between the mysterious "government agents" Richard & Dan and Budd Hopkins was none other than a pair of shoes that happened to sit outside Linda Cortibalone's apartment. (I think it was as weird as that.) As I recall, when Hopkins was taxed with the possible implications, inferences and general eye-twirlingness of this remarkable arrangement, he reputedly replied that he'd not revealed it because "the skeptics" (people like me) would only make hay with it -- or words to that effect. Well, they would, wouldn't they, and of course they did, didn't they, and not least because Hopkins had kept schtum about it. Which I mention to show (a) that Hopkins's reporting of the Cortaweenie case was biased (b) that it doesn't pay, in the end, to sit on stuff, because it will eventually come around and whack you. I once thought that abduction research would be altogether better off if the experients did _not_ wear a cloak of anonymity. I'm much less convinced of that, now. One reason is that in the process of talking to (never mind investigating) "abductees", researchers inevitably get close to the people as individuals. And sympathy, and perhaps an eye for the libel laws, get in the way of entirely objective reporting. I've never seen in print, and never expect to see, the fact that one not exactly un-famous abductee has only one testicle, or that another of similar staus was a tropical case of manic depression, or that yet another had a truly anomalous bankruptcy (I mean: working class family living in ostensibly modest circumstances going down for hundreds of thousands) in the background before an "abduction" made them celebrities. Another notorious UFO sighting-and-cover-up "case" was set in motion at least partly because (all the legmen agree) one of its initial promoters would sleep with anyone in a military uniform and was easily seduced by exotic tales involving alien contact. These people are all (now) known by their real names, and I'd argue that these facts, given the proper context, could well affect an assessment of the authenticity their "cases", and may help to explain them. Said facts and said real names are unlikely to be publicly linked in the proper order, or the evidence dispassionately weighed, precisely because the names are public property. Who wants to embarrass people in this way? -- let alone who wants to risk being sued for telling the truth. I can think of one or two instances in which an embarrassing fact might illuminate the truth of the claimed events, but they've been public knowledge for donkey's years; they've just been overlooked by (nearly) all commentators. Anonymity generates its own difficulties -- for example: how does investigator B confirm, check, or burrow into the details of investigator A's case if he can't contact the subject directly, or if he doesn't have an identity around which to investigate a background? I can think of ways around that, but the end should always be to protect the privacy & dignity of the subject. The means, however, call for a disinterested & impartial attitude on the part of investigators, which means an attitude imbued with honor and integrity. I don't see a lot of that about: tho' I don't mean it doesn't exist. Some Brits are at least trying to set an example. The _general_ ethos of ufology, however, is in my view quite well illustrated by Hopkins' astounding bad taste and psychological recklessness in "Witnessed", when he suggests that Linda Cortaloone's son Johnny may be the progeny of one of the "secret agents" (Richard, I think) in the case -- the noxious embraces necessary being engineered by the "aliens", of course. When I objected to this as irresponsible and objectionable speculation (you can bet it really blasted up Johnny's self-esteem, what?), I was told by one who considers himself a champion of all that's finest in ufology that "moral grandstanding" did not become me. Really? Do the blind lead the blind, or...? I don't think the abduction phenomenon has any one cause or any simple causes: but if you want to find out what is or has been happening to you, I'd stick to medical professionals who (a) can be held to account and (b), if you can find them, have some imagination. (b) is important, because in my limited experience "abductees" are absolutely not mad, bad or dangerous to know, and "skeptics" and medics who take that line are helping no one understand or explain anything. Neither, by the way, do "abductees" who claim there's only the choice between being considered crazy and being accepted as abductees. But neither do abductologists who sell or follow a party line. Besides, next thing you know, they might even sell your files, uncensored. best wishes Peter B
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 10 UpDate: CFRB Radio From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 21:01:36 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:48:32 -0400 Subject: UpDate: CFRB Radio Torontians have a really neat station. It's the same one Errol Bruce-Knapp presents his show, "Strange Days, Indeed." It's CFRB and I tuned in a few minutes before Errol's show. Listen up all you fans of old time radio! If you miss hearing a good radio program (forget about Stella Dallas or Lorenzo Jones - I mean something like "Yours Truly, Johnny Dollar" or Lux Radio Theater of the air type production. Written and produced for _radio_ not for some other venue. The show starts at 8 ET. I urge you to tune in on the Internet. And as they used to say, "Don't touch that dial .... " because if you don't, you'll segue right into Errol's 'Strange Days... Indeed' This ain't got nuttin to do with UFOs, but I thought yous might be interested. I loved the show. I love radio. Some of you may too. Jim Mortellaro "Imagination Theater"
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 10 UpDate: Discovering The War?" Conference July 15th From: Frances Emma Barwood <fbarwood@primenet.com> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 17:59:53 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:59:02 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Discovering The War?" Conference July 15th Hope you can make it. It should be an eye opener. Pass it on. Subject: Discovering The War conference Date: Sun, 9 July 2000 13:55:22 -0700 From: Vance Davis <vdavis@inficad.com> To: "frances emma barwood" <fbarwood@primenet.com> Discovering the War? Marriott Camelback Resort Inn & Spa 5405 E. Lincoln Scottsdale, Az - Sunshine Room 7pm to 11pm Door opens at 6pm $40 preregistration - 480-425-0907 (Visa, MC, Discover, and Debit) (Money order or Check) MAKE ALL MO OR CHECKS TO STAR SONG, INC. $50 at the door. unless you pick up a preregistration up at that time. Francis Emma Barwood - Hostess & MC Vance Davis - The Secrets from Within NSA and the Intelligence Community William Pawelec - Coordinating Patterns and cycles to disclose plans Alex Collier - Programs of control, slavery and the Human race Jim Marrs - The history of control, programs, and connections Finally all five will be discussing solutions and directions to release or change the final outcome. 90 second spot on 1280 AM Phoenix to be played all week Are we at war and don't know it? Is the final curtain coming down on a play called "land of the Free and Home of the brave? Are we no longer a shining light to the world? The games of kings and queens have reached our shores. Our sons and daughters need not be sacrificed again as pawns in their games. Thomas Jefferson said to be informed is to remain free. With knowledge we have the power to alter their plans. Becoming informed requires action. Take that first step. Make immediate plans to attend "Discover The War Seminar", Saturday July 15Th, at The Marriott Camelback Resort Inn. Four men from diverse backgrounds will join forces for the first time to inform and warn. Best selling author Jim Marrs, author of 'Crossfire The Plot That Killed Kennedy' will be joined by specialists on how the intelligence community really works. You'll learn how patterns disclose the plan, and how we can discover ways to win the game; as individuals, and as a nation. Join these believers in the discovery of truth, July 15th, 7:00 pm. At The Marriott Camelback Resort, 5402 E. Lincoln, in Scottsdale. For advanced ticket information call Historical Data Retrieval 480-425-0907, or be at Brentano'S Bookstore, Scottsdale Fashion Square on Sat., 15th, at 2:00 pm, for Jim Marr's book signing of his latest masterpiece "rule by secrecy". Seating is limited so please call early for tickets. 480-425-0907. Become informed to remain free. The choice is yours. 480-425-0907. Call now. 480-425-0907. Press Release
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 03:11:57 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 00:00:40 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 15:57:13 -0400 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 12:20:15 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >>Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>A fellow researcher has made the >>suggestion that the atomic bomb which was dropped and detonated >>over Quebec by a disabled U.S. plane returning from a base in >>the Canadian east coast where many UFO sightings were being made >>may have been caused by a UFO too. >An American nuclear bomb was detonated over Quebec? When did >that happen? >Greg Sandow Hello Greg, I don't think we can entertain the notion that there was a nuclear explosion in Quebec. A few months ago I read somewhere on the net about "close calls", accidental releases of atomic weapons. My memory is a little fuzzy (as usual) and I don't have the time to search for that entry. There was at least one incident of a bomb accidentally released when one of the flight crew was in the bomb bay removing the mechanical bomb locks that were used for takeoff and landing. Uh oh, the bomb punched a hole in the bomb bay door and headed straight down. When the bomb hit the ground the conventional explosive charge that was used to start a reaction ezploded and did not start a thermonuclear fission process. I can't recall whether any of those incidents were over Quebec. I think there have been only about a half dozen incidents from our forces. The worst was a fire in an underground ICBM silo in Misssissippi. When the missile with a 20 megaton warhead exploded it hurled that warhead 900 feet. But no 20 megaton mass wipe out. Fortunately we have had very good arming procedures.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Easton From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 03:39:17 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 00:02:16 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Easton Regarding: >Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 11:58:19 -0400 >From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Steve wrote: >>Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:45:43 +0100 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>[...] >>Nick, they are so obviously bogus a ten-year-old could see >>through them, as opposed to the more recent MJ-12 documents, >>which were apparently written by one. >I'd be curious to know what you believe a 10-year-old would be >able to see in the MJ-12 documents that would indicate that they >were fakes. Steve, I do appreciate your concern that 'controversial' evidence may be dismissed without foundation. However, not only has it long been evident who, in relation to the original 'MJ-12' hoax, were initially responsible for instigating and promoting this terminal parasite, which has to a significant extent become synonymous with ufology, the premise is that there has for 50 years plus been a nefarious, diabolical cover-up that only some ufologists have the intelligence to grasp. ;) In truth, we have yet to see any evidence remotely supporting how the entire scientific world and analytical media are, by comparison, so incredibly stupid, naive and gullible that they're oblivious to the biggest pay-day imaginable! Same goes of course for the preposterous and tragic 'NASA cover up' accusations. It's not incumbent on myself or anyone who has an interest in the question of life elsewhere in the Universe and whether it might have reached here, that we subscribe to the accepted standards which degrade ufology. And what exactly is 'ufology' in the new millennium? A cursory exploration, as currently proclaimed by some of its foremost voices should tell us: UFO Magazine (UK): "Dr. Roger Leir presents the 'mind boggling' results of scientific analysis conducted on a purported Alien implant which he and his surgical team successfully removed earlier this year". "Is a top secret effort titled Project Cloverleaf behind those mysterious 'chemtrails'?" "Psychological Warfare and MJ-12 - A fascinating response by Ryan Wood to those who would argue that the 'Majestic 12' documents were manufactured by official government agencies whose forte is disinformation. Augmented by numerous images and individuals possibly linked to MJ-12, including a former head of the KGB!". "The Secret NASA Transmissions: 'The Smoking Gun'...". UFO Magazine (US) 'Toxic Skies' Covert U.S. Projects "Is a top secret effort titled Project Cloverleaf behind those mysterious 'chemtrails'? "Cold War Microwaves May Have Been Involved With Roswell". MUFON 'MUFON Board Approves project designed to end government cover- up'. 50 Years After Kenneth Arnold and The Roswell UFO, Where do we go from here? PRESS RELEASE For immediate release Anniversaries present a time for reflection. Fifty years ago the modern UFO phenomenon burst into public consciousness when, on June 24, 1947, businessman and private pilot Kenneth Arnold, on a search and rescue mission near Mt. Rainier, Wash., observed nine crescent-shaped discs flying faster than any jet and undulating like a "saucer" skipping over water. And no sooner had "flying saucers" caused imaginations to soar, an event rife with staggering worldview implications occurred. On July 3, 1947, on a sheep ranch outside Roswell, N.M., a flying disc fell out of the sky, crashing ignominiously on the desert". [End] Arnold saw "nine crescent-shaped discs"!? "A flying disc fell out of the sky" near Roswell!? Ultimately, for many ufologists - alright, maybe just a few - it's beyond despair and evidently beyond reconciliation. Ufology's status as a scientific leper is hard earned and jealously guarded. Still, that's been recognised for a long time by many ufologists. If 'ufology' was a Company and at its shareholders' meeting there were protests about the shoddiness of what was being sold, any such protests would be vehemently reprimanded by the majority of shareholders. I seem to recall that was recently proven at the "9th Annual International UFO Congress Convention", and then some... It _is_ irreconcilable, otherwise we wouldn't have this perpetual conflict. ;) The resolution... I predict that the 'evidence' promoted by mainstream UFO media sources will become increasingly untenable; there will, in the near future, be a necessary and long overdue 'realignment'... As you may know, the newly published, August issue of 'Fortean Times', features on the front cover [is that Nick Pope?] and a centrepiece, six page article, my research into the pivotal Kenneth Arnold case - see: http://www.forteantimes.com/ In the magazine's editorial, Bob Rickard comments on "Ufology at the Crossroads". Bob's astute observations should perhaps be considered in the context of where ufology goes from here. As Bob Dean would say, there's an immanent 'paradigm shift'. James Easton. E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk www.ufoworld.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: PCs Hit the 'Outer Limits' From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 05:04:49 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 00:04:43 -0400 Subject: UpDate: PCs Hit the 'Outer Limits' Source: Computerworld Online via PC World, http://www.pcworld.com/shared/printable_articles/0,1440,17580,00.html Stig *** From PC World.com PCs Hit the 'Outer Limits' by Kathleen Melymuka, Computerworld Online ** When you have a big job--like searching the universe for signs of intelligent life--you need all the help you can get. That was the idea behind the May 1999 launch of SETI@home, (http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/) an imaginative application of distributed computing that could have far-reaching implications--for business. SETI@home, a project supported by the nonprofit SETI Institute in Mountain View, California, and other groups, has harnessed the Internet--and people's imaginations--to organize almost 2 million volunteer PCs into a virtual massively parallel computer. The task: analyzing radio signals picked up by the Arecibo radio telescope in Puerto Rico--the one featured in the 1997 movie Contact. The goal: detecting the kind of deep-space radio signals that could indicate communication by other intelligence in the universe. The strategy: to link together as many of the world's computers as possible to accomplish the goal. "The Internet lets us do that for the first time in the history of computers," says David Anderson, the SETI team's distributed computing guru. "It lets us, in effect, make them into one big parallel supercomputer." Moreover, the SETI@home software runs in the background or as a PC screen saver, so it doesn't interfere with users' normal computing tasks. The search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI) may or may not find ET, but it has helped spur a change in thinking about the potential for distributed computing. Proponents say that linking computers through the Internet could enable long-term, computation-intensive tasks in aerodynamics, pharmacology, geophysics, biotechnology and manufacturing to be done in relatively little time. Suddenly, goals that were once tabled because they were deemed impractical are possible, Anderson says. "There may be some analysis you want to do, and you see it will take 100,000 years of computer time, so you would throw away that idea," he explains. But in one year, SETI@home has used more computer time than that. "So those ideas can be taken out of (the) wastebasket and reconsidered," he says. Potential users include energy companies that need to do seismic or geographic analyses before they start drilling for oil or digging for coal, manufacturers that do structural analysis or study fluid dynamics prior to transforming a design from a computer model into the real equipment, and engineering firms that stress-test everything from bridges to aircraft. The basic idea is simple, says Dave McNett, president of Distributed.net, a Birmingham, Alabama-based nonprofit research foundation founded in 1997 to compete in an encryption-breaking contest. The group has grown to 20 developers and has rallied a 190,000-machine network (93 percent are PCs) to break code and solve mathematical puzzles for fun and prizes. These kinds of networks can accomplish a great deal, McNett says, because 90 percent of most computers' processing power goes unused. Even when computers are in use, the majority of tasks aren't CPU-intensive. Working in a spreadsheet, for example, is CPU-intensive only when the columns are computed. "CPUs are used only in short bursts," McNett says. "And that's not even mentioning 6 p.m. to 9 a.m. and weekends and holidays." Application Limits But distributed computing isn't for every job, says John M. Old, director of information management for worldwide exploration and production at Texaco in Houston. "The SETI project lends itself to breaking the data into small, independent chunks, which makes the parallel computing fairly simple," Old explains. Unfortunately, not all data can be segmented that way, and many projects require complex communication among processors. McNett acknowledges that there are plenty of things an IBM RS/6000 can do that a distributed network can't. For example, weather prediction is difficult because the data is very interrelated. Distributed computing is better at jobs such as animation rendering, in which each of the 30 frames per second that go into a movie like Toy Story are separate tasks that can be distributed among thousands of computers. With those kinds of jobs in mind, the folks at Distributed.net are considering a commercial spin-off. At present, Distributed.net's machines are equivalent to 42 144-node RS/6000s, the fastest computers on the market, at a net cost of about $120 million (based on the floating-point speed of the RS/6000 and the Pentium II/266 PC, the average computer on the distributed network). If the SETI project rallied 2 million computers by word of mouth, imagine what a company that was willing to pay for your PC's time might accomplish. That's exactly what Jim Albea, chief operating officer at ProcessTree Network, (www.processtree.com) in Madison, Alabama, was thinking in January when he set up a Web site soliciting computers for the April launch of what he claims is the first commercial venture in the field. Despite the potential, there are problems that have to be solved before massively parallel Internet computing can work commercially, McNett says. The biggest hurdle is security. An oil exploration company considering the mineral rights to some land might gain a lot of efficiency by divvying up the analysis of the geologic data across the Internet. But what's to stop a competitor from setting up machines in the network and gleaning some insights from the data? And what about would-be saboteurs in the network, bent on ruining a project for competitive or malicious reasons? Another concern is that if people can modify the software's behavior, they can affect the project's integrity. Finally, McNett says, massively distributed computing calls for a business model that has yet to gel. "Are you going to send 18-cent checks to 100,000 people every month?" he asks. Albea says he thinks ProcessTree has solved most of the technical and business problems. Even though ProcessTree hasn't yet set a pricing plan, CEO Steve Porter offers a ballpark figure of about $1,000 for the equivalent of a year's worth of CPU power from a Pentium II/400. The company may pay in the range of $10-to-$20 per month per computer--and even more for large-volume volunteers such as businesses. Payment will likely be in credits with an online retailer or service. For example, a participant might get discounts on Internet service in exchange for running the software. Since its site debuted in January--with virtually no advertising--ProcessTree has lined up more than 35,000 users representing more than 70,000 machines. "We are the largest body of available commercial computing power in the world right now," Porter says. "You can't get anything that can go faster than we can, and we get faster every day." How SETI@home Works "The hypothesis is that if there are other intelligent beings, they probably use radio waves to communicate among themselves, in which case we would have some chance of hearing leakage of that communication in the same way our TV and radio waves leak out into space," says David Anderson, a computer scientist who works on the SETI@home project. "Or they might be sending an intentional signal with the express purpose of telling other beings like us that they're there." Here's how the SETI scientists are harnessing the Internet to find such signals. As the world's largest radio telescope at Arecibo, Puerto Rico, slowly sweeps the sky, digital data is recorded on special magnetic tapes at the rate of about 50GB a day. The tapes are mailed to the University of California at Berkeley, where the data is transferred to three Enterprise 450 servers donated by Sun Microsystems. The servers chop the data into "work units" of about a third of a megabyte each, and those are stored on a set of 500GB disks. Volunteers initially download the SETI client software through the Internet onto Windows or Macintosh PCs, and it acts like a screen saver, starting when they're not using their computers. Versions for UNIX and Linux run in the background at low priority all the time. Volunteers then connect to the SETI server via the Internet and receive a work unit, which can download in just a few minutes even via a 28.8-kbps modem. A work unit represents a strip of the sky about the width of the moon and one-tenth the height, containing a frequency band of 10,000 hertz. Radio waves in nature are spread over different frequencies and come across as noise rather than a discreet wave, so the computer combs through that band looking for narrow-frequency radio waves, like the transmission from a commercial radio station at 90.1 megahertz FM, for example. Such waves may indicate a transmission. When the work unit is finished, the software produces a short list of narrow-frequency candidate signals. Then it reconnects to the SETI server and exchanges the work unit and results for another work unit. Because our civilization is constantly leaking "radio garbage" into space, its difficult to say whether a detected signal comes from us or them. The candidate signals are put into a database where they can be examined and compared, but the best way to determine whether a signal is from space is to look for the same signal from the same point in the sky at two different times. SETI@home is just getting to the stage where it will have results of multiple runs through the sky that will enable that kind of analysis. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Copyright � 2000 PC World Communications. All Rights Reserved. Use of this service is subject to the PC World.com Terms of Service Agreement. PC World.com complies with the ASME Guidelines with IDG Extensions for new media. Try the magazine: Get 2 Risk-Free Issues!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:24:55 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 00:10:25 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars >From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net> >Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 21:03:29 -0600 >Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 01:13:29 -0400 >Subject: UpDate: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars - Fleming >Several weeks ago, it was claimed by a person on this list that >Vince DiPietro, who has argued that two successive Viking images >showed a water geyser, didn't know the difference between a dust >devil and a geyser. While I didn't mention the insulting tone in >which this claim was made, I did write to Vince and asked him >whether he or Dr. Martin had specifically considered the >possibility that the feature they had described as a possible >geyser was instead a dust devil. Vince replied that he and Greg >Molenaar in their 1982 book, "Unusual Martian Surface Features", >had included an image of dust devils in "Arcadia" from Viking >frame 34B01 on page 69 of UMSF in order to establish a >difference between the dust devils and Martin"s water geyser. Lan, List: Thanks for posting Vincent DiPietro's response. I based my comment not on "ignorance" but on an appearance DiPietro made on the Late Robert Barry's "ET Monitor" TV program. I distinctly remember this show because I called in but my question was not read. It was about the matter of a water spout being possible at an atmospheric pressure of 9 millibars. As I recall, there was no discussion of this issue on the program, just pictures which have been accepted by nearly everyone else as dust devils and their picture of one which looks different than the others shown. Shadows can appear different when projected on different slopes and terrain. I concluded at the time, and still believe, that since they presented no evidence other than the shape of this one shadow for their hypothesis that this was water not dust, that they probably wouldn't know how to tell the difference, anyway. >Of course, I don't expect to see any apology from the individual >who tossed out the gratuitous and ignorant insult. Such >individuals seldom apologize for anything. But I thought >DiPietro's response should be stated for the record. Sorry. That was my opinion after watching his presentation on TV, and that's still my opinion now. Of course, I could be wrong. Why, Vince DiPietro actually wants Kenneth Starr to investigate the Mars pictures and NASA. Now _that's_ the way to conduct real scientific research. Clear skies, Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published - Young From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:24:00 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 00:12:50 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published - Young >From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net> >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 21:27:32 -0600 >Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 08:41:30 -0400 >Subject: UpDate: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published in Science >Mag <snip> >Malin really did claim that Mars' atmospheric pressure was >usually below the triple point of water -- in the very >first sentence of thearticle, which is: >"Present-day Mars is a desert world on which liquid water is not >likely to be found at the surface, because average temperatures >are below 273 K and atmospheric pressures are at or below >water’s triple-point vapor pressure of 6.1 mbar." >The pressures measured by the Viking and Pathfinder landers in >fact seldom if ever fell below the triple-point. Malin's >statement is just plain wrong. Lan, List: Malin wrote about "average" temperatures and pressures. This presumably includes nighttime, polar and winter hemisphere sites. The Viking and Pathfinder landers were, I believe, not at polar sites. Clear skies, Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Laajala From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:53:07 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 00:19:43 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Laajala >Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 21:42:01 +0300 >From: Minna Laajala - UFO-Finland <ufofinland@saunalahti.fi> >Subject: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 02:42:35 -0400 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: Velez, Andrus And Carpenter - Lovett >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> Hello Minna, You asked: >1) How do these abductees know their own facts were in that > material? I will base my answer on the example of the one file that has been returned by Bigelow to the 'subject'. In that file, the name, address, telephone number, social security number, and medical information were all clearly visible. I have also mentioned that part of the material that was sold was audio and videotape of hypnosis sessions and interviews. I seriously doubt that they edited each and every tape for mention of names and other identifying information. >2) Have they seen the material, and if so, where and how? A midwest investigator named Gary Hart is in possession of the 'physical evidence' (the file that Bigelow returned, testimony from many of the abductees involved, and other related material such as letters from Carpenter to Bigelow while the transaction was being negotiated, cancelled checks etc that were provided by someone _very_ close to Mr. Carpenter. >3) Have you seen it? Only copies. But I don't need to 'see it' now that the International Director of MUFON Walt Andrus and Robert Bigelow who purchased the files have both confirmed it. Case closed, at least on that score anyway. >If Carpenter did sell non-identified information I don�t think >the nameless information hurts anyone, God help, it might even >help the investigations. But if you and your claims about >persons personal information is correct, I�ll lift my hat to >you. I will expect a photograph of you "tipping your hat" within the next thirty days Minna! :) Regards, John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: UFO Sighting OZ File 4th July 00 From: Diane Harrison Director AUFORN <tkbnetw@powerup.com.au> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:02:25 +1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 00:32:56 -0400 Subject: UpDate: UFO Sighting OZ File 4th July 00 Flying Orange Lights "Freak" witnesses OZ File 4th July 2000 By Alan Hardie NT Newspaper UFOs--- bright orange lights flying in formation-- have been spotted by several Darwin people in the past few days. Peta Wilson was among those who saw up to six lights flying in triangular formation over the Nightcliff area on Sunday night. But neither the Darwin Weather Bureau nor the RAAF had an explanation yesterday. And neither was aware of the phenomenon. Ms Wilson said yesterday. "I an avid skywatcher, I have a telescope and I've seen comets and planets. "but I've never seen anything to match this it really scared me. "It was shortly before 8pm and I was driving down Dick Ward Dve towards Nightcliff. "Suddenly I saw this orange light in the sky and I thought it was a plane at first. "Then I saw another light and rolled my window down, but there was no jet noise. "The Lights were over the sea and then four more joined them. "There were six in all, in a line moving in and out of formation. "They were there for about five minutes, with no smoke or tails of any kind. "I stopped next to a group who were watching and it was incredible-- they were freaking out. "The lights then moved into a triangular shape. "They looked somehow as if they were just floating there." Ms Wilson said she did not know a lot about extra terrestrials. "I know people have seen some strange things, but I never seen anything like this. "she said. "I have no answer for it." Her sighting was confirmed by several other callers to the Northern Territory News Yesterday. Thankyou Mark Mabgat for sending this clipping to us keeping us all informed. More to come: Regards Diane Harrison Director Of The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia Co Director of The Australian UFO Research Network Australian Skywatch Director ~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<> THE KEITH BASTERFIELD NETWORK (A Non-Profit Organization) E-Mail: tkbnetw@powerup.com.au E-mail: ufologist@powerup.com.au http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw ADMINISTRATION: THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK (A Non-Profit Organization) PO Box 805 Springwood Qld 4127 Australia ~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<> Australian UFO Research Network Hotline Number 1800 77 22 88 Freecall ~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<> Disclaimer: The Keith Basterfield List Owners are not responsible for the content or misuse of this list. However, personal insults, flaming will not be tolerated. ~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Another MJ-12 Source From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:44:34 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 00:40:28 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Another MJ-12 Source Met another MJ12 source. Individual is a senior retired AF officer who participated in many black projects. He found the Dan Sherman's 'Project Preserve Destiny' book very plausible and spoke of US studies to manipulate EM mentally. He also thought the principle of noise cancellation could be applied to destroy and/or control weapon systems. His assertions: - MJ12 is an unacknowledged agency/program headquartered at NORAD - Been around since at least the 50's - He referred to the Greys as 'the Visitors' - It is a composite agency drawing from CIA, NSA, DIA...etc for a very small staffing and a multi-billion dollar budget - MJ12 exploits and disseminates information of alien origin to other US Government agencies and facilities strategic and tactical military advantages - Had first hand access to classified information affirming the alien nature of the Roswell crash - MJ12 spends a lot of money and resources on secure communications [C4I] that could survive an EMP from oh say a massive Solar flare... - MJ12 is a ruthless bunch - While at Sandia, read a Top Secret material analysis report of alien debris recovered near Roswell - US has its own flying saucers Other Stuff - Been many times to Area 51. While there would be black out period requiring himself and other high ranking officers to locked in a guarded underground room - Stealth aircraft development benefited from MJ12 supplied materials and processes. - US nuclear weapons design has benefited for MJ12 - The US has will assassinates foreign nations in the US. Upon approval from a special chain of command, special forces will be dispatched to 'execute' the mission - Thought that some of the alien technology exploitation was conducted by another agency at WPAFB Best Regards, Bob Huff "Given a choice between two theories, take the one which is funnier."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:05:33 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 00:46:20 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Balaskas >Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:18:45 -0600 >From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 12:20:15 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >>Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Although Canada was >>not in a state of war at the time, the files on these crashes >>were stamped SECRET. Why? A fellow researcher has made the >>suggestion that the atomic bomb which was dropped and detonated >>over Quebec by a disabled U.S. plane returning from a base in >>the Canadian east coast where many UFO sightings were being made >>may have been caused by a UFO too. >What?!?! You mean we nuked Canada?? Well, accidents do happen. >No hard feelings, I hope. In the future, I'm sure we'll try not >to do that sort of thing more often than is absolutely >necessary. >Seriously, this is a rather sensational statement, to say the >least, and I'd be interested to read about whatever basis in >fact it may have. Hi everyone. Yes Lan, you did. Not only did you guys nuke "La Belle Province" in 1950 but you did it again to "Beautiful British Columbia" later that same year! Although I cannot prove it, from the many Canadians who have made Florida their new home with bumper stickers on their cars which say "My Canada Includes Florida", you seem to have made amends for the accidental nukings. ;o) This same fellow researcher and friend was the one who brought to my attention the nuclear bomb detonation off the coast of B.C. which was made public for the first time in 1997 by Dr. John Clearwater, a military-strategic analyst, in his book "US Nuclear Weapons in Canada". What does this all have to do with UFOs? - everything! Dr. Clearwater's book proves that many secrets can and have been kept from the public. Never-the-less, my friend reminded me that one shouldn't wait for leaks about UFOs when so much can be found about them now in declassified documents and he has been kind enough to share many of his recent incredible new findings with me. To answer your (and Greg Sandow's) questions, I will reproduce the newspaper article that appeared in the February 20, 2000 issue of Toronto's The Sunday Sun below. Comments in square brackets are mine. Yanks dropped nuke Eggleton confrims 1950 incident over St. Lawrence River MONTREAL (CP) - Engine trouble forced an American pilot to detonate a disarmed nuclear bomb over the st. Lawrence River 50 years ago, Defense Minister Art Eggleton has admitted. At the time, Canadian government officials claimed the incident merely involved three coventional 225-kilogram bombs [And you thought our friends south of the 49th only participated in coverups.]. The pilot, flying a B-50 bomber from Goose Bay, Nfld., to the U.S. on Jan. 10, 1950, experienced engine trouble near Riviere- du-Loup in Quebec's Lower St. Lawrence region. Needing to shed some cargo, he looked 3,300 metres below [or 10,000 feet for our U.S. readers] and checked his radar to determine that no boats were sailing nearby, Eggleton said in a letter to Bloc Quebecois MP Paul Crete, obtained by Quebec City's Le Soleil. The pilot then followed orders and dropped a 2,000-kilogram Mark IV nuclear bomb, which contained explosives but lacked its nuclear component [Or so we are told by the same previously truthful sources...]. To avoid the danger of having active explosives fall into the river, the Mark IV was detonated about one kilometer from the ground, triggering a deafening blast that sent a thick cloud of yellowish smoke billowing into the air. Residents living near the shore said they felt the ground shake. Eggleton's letter came in response to Crete's request for the information. Because the bomb lacked a plutonium or uranium nucleus, its explosion did not endanger the environment, Eggleton's letter said [Oh yeah, then what about all those giant fish in the St. Lawrence River which are the size of whales? Okay, so they are whales but with no radiation monitoring equipment like that we later had to monitor the radioactive dust fallout from Chinese above ground nuclear explosions carried by the wind into Canada, how would we be able to say anything about the damage to the environment or to Canadians with any certainty?]. The day after the blast, officials from the external affairs department were quoted in newspapers saying they would launch a full investigation because the U.S. was not authorized to transport active bombs over Canada [So what did U.S. bomber pilots carry in their holds while frequently stopping off at Canadian bases during the Cold War if not active bombs? Could it be that the Liberals in power didn't want the truth be known that they were involved in a little Free Trade of their own - U.S. nylons and cigarettes for Canadian back bacon and whiskey?]. But three days after the blast, A.D.P. Heeney, undersecretary of state for external affairs, wrote that he hadn't filed a complaint with the U.S. ambassador because the Canadian military was aware of the U.S. operation [Makes you wonder if something bigger than a little Mark IV nuclear bomb that accidently blew up which both countries decided was better to ignore. Maybe the boys top side may have something to say about this particular aircraft incident too...]. Nick Balaskas
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Filer's Files #27 -- 2000 From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 20:39:06 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 00:59:09 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Filer's Files #27 -- 2000 Filer's Files #27 -- 2000, MUFON Skywatch Investigations George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern July 10, 2000, Majorstar@aol.com, Sponsored by Electronic Arts Web Site at: http://www.filersfiles.com.-Chuck Warren Webmaster. MUFON INTERNATIONAL UFO SYMPOSIUM JULY 14-16, 2000 ST LOUIS -- The symposium will be held at the Sheraton West Port Hotel, 191 West Port Plaza in St. Louis. Confirmed speakers are Stanton Friedman, Ted Phillips, John Schuessler, Gerald Rolwes, Linda Corley, Kevein Randle, Stan Gordon, Bruce Maccabee, Robert Wood, Colm Kelleher, Greg Avery, and John Greenewald. Room reservations may be made by calling (314) 878-1500. I might remind readers the following are initial reports that are investigated whenever possible. We find that there may be other possible reasons for the sightings such as plasmas, satellites or unusual types of aircraft. Like US Air Force and British studies at least 10 percent remain unidentified. NEW YORK CYLINDER UFO MELVILLE, LONG ISLAND -- On June 15, 2000, the witness saw a black cigar shaped UFO while sitting at his desk looking out his office window at 4:30 PM. The witness stated, "I thought it might be a helicopter but it was too big to be a helicopter." At first it hovered, then it began to travel in an east to northeast direction extremely slow towards New York City. I kept my eye on it for at least a minute. I was looking for wings or chopper blades, but it had neither. It seemed to go in and out of focus. The oddest thing about this object is that I could see the atmosphere spinning around it. It finally passed over the building and I lost track of it. I went to the north side of the building, but I could no longer locate it. It definitely was NOT an airplane or helicopter. I see them out my office window every day, and I know what they look like even from a distance. This object looked nothing like that. After I saw the sighting, I had a feeling that helicopters would circle my house as soon as I got home. Within one hour of arriving at my house, a helicopter came and circled my house twice then headed north. Thanks to Debbie. NEW YORK STRANGE LIGHTS SOUTHAMPTON, LONG ISLAND -- Jim Bouck MUFON State Director reports that at 9:00 PM on July 6, 2000, a witness was standing next to his upstairs bathroom window when he observed a bright light outside. The light was about three miles away, and about the size of a golf ball. Behind the clouds was a smaller light kind of going around it. There was no noise and it was not moving. The witness states, "I watched it for several minutes, and went down the hall to my mother's room to tell her to look. I said, "Do you see it?" My mother saw the light neither of us could hear any sounds. It began to move up a little, then to the right very slowly and definitely "hovering." The small light went off to the left. The big light went off replaced by a red light and a green light. It kept moving west and started going faster. After three minutes, it crossed to the right and we heard a humming sound. Neither of us saw wings and this was definitely NOT a helicopter. It went off to the west and disappeared. Three minutes later, a loud helicopter came from the southeast and followed. The helicopter was loud and moving like a helicopter! Five minutes later, we saw two small lights coming from the west towards us. They were moving fast and sounded like planes. When they got closer, the first seemed to be a plane, but second light was following behind it moving at the same speed. The light underneath was but too far away to be attached to first plane. Could all this just be some testing from Westhampton Air Base? Thanks to Jim Bouck who is investigating further. PENNSYLVANIA LIGHTS EASTON -- My name is Frank, I made a report of seeing UFOs over my house the other night, and tonight July 08, 2000, I just spent the last couple hours sky watching. Between 2 and 3:00 AM, I saw numerous objects going back and forth over my house moving in a north south direction. I have lived here all my life and all air traffic coming out of ABE airport moves east or west. They are a point of light like a star, but are moving way up high. I cannot tell what they are because they move so fast that it is hard to keep up with some of them. I use binoculars and there are no blinking lights. One had a yellow flash, the others were just white. I even saw two moving together. I got to a point where I just said OMG there is another one. Three of four moved in a northern direction and I saw two moving back the same way they came. They were tag teaming each other. The front one would make a yellow flash and pull away till the second one caught up. Then it flashed pulled away. It was strange and disturbing. At sunrise, it got hard to see them. Thanks to Frank Gualberti and Barry Taylor stingray@nor.com.au. Editor's Note: We are trying to get an investigator to look into this case. Tony Eccles wrote, I came across a similar flying triangle report from Arkansas in Filer's Files #19. A satellite was seen along with what appeared to be two others, and they flew in triangular formation. It moved silently at uniform speed and they faded into the SE. In England, I had received a similar case that occurred in 5th October 1999. The man saw the same thing and the three lights disappeared in the southeast. A possible solution are US Navy surveillance satellites; known as NOSS or the Space-Based Wide Area Surveillance System that belong to the ELINT program. NOSS satellites travel in threes and Lacrosse satellites in pairs. The triangular formation of NOSS does not remain static and the three lights may appear as if in a straight line or two satellites will appear to be "intercepting" the lead light and then disappear. Thanks to Tony Eccles Merseyside Anomalies Research Association. MICHIGAN TWO RED UFOs SIGHTED DEXTER -- On Friday, June 23, 2000, Walter S., his mother and his brother were at church when they saw something strange in the sky. "My brother, my mother and I were at the Webster First Church of Christ, walking around, and when we noticed to the west two bright red lights out in the field at 11:30 PM. The two red lights were gliding slowly over treetops in a field. No noise was made. The lights were just above the tree line and moving away ever so slowly to the south--perhaps at three miles per hour. The objects were red and did not blink. We thought perhaps they were planes, but there was no sound. We continued to watch them until they were obscured by some trees." Dexter (population 1,500) is on Highway D-19 approximately 50 miles west of Detroit. Thanks to Todd Lemire and UFO Roundup Vol.5 #26, 6/29/20 Editor: Joseph Trainor RADIGAN DAM -- Jim Aho writes on July 3, 2000, Eddie and a small group of friends went camping and saw a strange craft in the Dairyland area 38 miles south of Superior. Two of my friends went for a walk a little after dark, only to come back and get me at about 11:00 PM. They brought me a very short distance from our site and asked me what I saw? About half mile away, there were two levels of lights, one at the lower portion of the distant tree line and another closer to the top of the trees. It didn't look like fog, as we could plainly make out the trees in the lighted areas. We walked back to our site and they jumped into their truck to see what was causing the lights. I stayed at the site with two other friends. We had been using my telescope to check out some very bright stars. I noticed a very distant light in the sky, moving very quickly. I called to my friends to check this out, as there were no blinking lights like an airplane would have. We watched this circle of bright lights move from east to west very fast. It suddenly stopped for just a split second and then sped away in a minute. I didn't have enough time to track the object with my Meade DS 114mm telescope that we had been using to watch stars. Thanks to W-Files http://www.execpc.com/~ahoj/wfiles/index.html and Eddie at EHPDRAGON@aol.com NORTH DAKOTA UFO BUZZES B-52 AND MISSILES MINOT AIR FORCE BASE - In Captain Kevin Randle's new book Scientific Ufology he reports on a Project Blue Book case dated October 24, 1968, when missile crews, control personnel and maintenance personnel observed a UFO in the vicinity of the base. The following is the tape between the air controllers and the B-52 crew with call sign JAG Three one. At 0330 hours: The controllers received the information that there was a UFO 24 miles to the northwest. A B-52 jet bomber (JAG 31) flying at 2000 feet was on a calibration check and requests a clearance from radar personnel. At 0334 "MIB (Minot) approach control does JAG 31 have clearance to WT fix at Flight Level 2000?" JAG 31, Roger climb out on a heading of 290 climb and maintain 5000. Stand by for higher altitude. We're trying to get it from center now. At 0335, the controller asked, "And JAG 31 on your way out to the WT fix request you look out toward your one o'clock position for the next fifteen miles and see if you see any orange glows out there? "Roger, roger glows 31, "Someone is seeing UFOs again!" "Roger I see a........ (Rest of transmission garbled) At 0352, The controller then radioed, "Three one, the UFO is being picked up by weather's radar also. Should be at our one o'clock position three miles now" The pilot said, "We have nothing on our airborne radar and I'm in some pretty thick haze now and unable to see out that way." At 0358, the pilot then requested an instrument guided approach, and received instructions. The pilot called, and then the transmitter went dead, but they could hear instructions from the ground. The controller asked them to squawk ident," which meant to use the aircraft's transponder which would paint the controller's radar with a large, glowing blip with the aircraft's identification. At 0400, the controller then radioed, "JAG 31 if you hear me squawk ident...JAG 31 ident observed. Cleared for the approach attempt. Contact on frequency 271 decimal three and you're cleared for the low approach. They continued to have radio problems for another couple of minutes. At 0402, they were able to communicate easily. The pilot said, "Our UFO was off to our left side when we started penetration. "Roger, understand you did see something on your left side." "We had a radar return at about a mile and a quarter, at nine o'clock position for about the time we left 200 to 14..."They discussed the troubles with the transmission and then, the controller asked, "Affirmative. I was wondering how far out did you see that UFO?" "He was about one and a half miles off our left wing at 35 miles when we started in and stayed with us 'til about 10." "I wonder if that could have been your radio troubles?" "I don't know.... But that's exactly when they started. "At 0413, Jag 31 are you observing any more UFOs? Negative on radar. We can't see anything visually. JAG 31, request you have someone report to base ops after you land. What we have, then, was a group of sightings made by men on the ground, at the missile sites scattered around the base. There was radar sightings from ground and weather's radar. There were visual sightings from the crew of the B-52, and an airborne radar sighting where the target traveled at 3,000 miles per hour. Scope photographs were taken. There were sightings made by S.Sgt. Bond the FSC at Nov. Flight, S.Sgt. Smith at Oscar-1, Julelt, and Mike Flight Team and a number of men in widely scattered locations. The object landed at location AA-43 and the entire observation lasted for 45 minutes. Fourteen other people in separate locations also reported the UFO. Security alarm were activated for both the outer and inner ring at the missile sites. When the guards arrived at the outer door it was open and the combination lock on the inner door had been moved. Editors Note: The case in my estimation was never investigated properly. Project Blue Book personnel never sent a representative and the case was essentially written off despite the interest of several Strategic Air Command generals including 15th Air Force's Major General Nichols. The sighting was officially explained by on November 13, by Lt. Col. Hector Quintanilla who wrote, "The following conclusions have been reached after a thorough study of the data submitted to Foreign Technology Division. The ground visual sightings appear to be of the star Sirius and the B-52, which was flying in the area. The B-52 radar contact and the temporary loss of the UHF transmission could be attributed to a plasma similar to ball lightning. The air visual from the B-52 could be the star Vega, which was on the horizon at the time, or it could be a light on the ground, or possibly a plasma. No further investigation by the Foreign Technology Division is contemplated. This is a classic Blue Book case where dozens of Air Force personnel who see B-52s and stars nightly have their testimony doubted. They know when they've seen a UFO. In this case the scientists doing the Condon report agreed that this was a real UFO. The apparent damage to the missile site and disruption of B-52 radio transmissions was in my opinion a threat to primary nuclear offensive systems and should not have been trivialized. The records speak for themselves. This article was taken from Scientific Ufology written by Captain Kevin D. Randle USAFR. I consider this his finest book and recommend its reading. This case like thousands of others are explained away with any simple mundane explanation that can be found. Yet many cases involve the tampering of key government weapon systems. It appears Quintanilla either did not care or had instructions to write off most of the sightings with any available excuse. I wonder why the reports were white washed, while the Air Force's scientific advisor Alan Hynek was coming to the opposite conclusion that, UFOs were real? TEXAS LIGHTS KILLEEN -- I did see a UFO for the first time in my life on April 22, 2000, at 9:38 PM. There were many lights and no noise at all. They were bright white lights that came from the southwest and flew northeast within 30 seconds and then I could no longer see it. It reminded me of a large formation of ducks flying, but these were not ducks at all. I yelled for my husband who came out. He saw the same thing back in October of last year but I didn't believe him! I wanted to find out if others in my area have witnessed this also? I live next to Fort Hood, Texas and I do not think that this was any military aircraft. This was a UFO and no one can tell me any different. Hey-I believe in ghost's and that has always been my interest. I never really thought about UFOs until this happened. Thanks to: Ghostly WYOMING SAUCER-SHAPED UFO Rawlins -- On June 19, 2000, a saucer-shaped with a dome on top was observed while traveling west on Interstate 80 at 7:44 PM. The craft was brown and hovering high above the ground beneath low rain clouds. The craft then very rapidly shot almost straight up like a backward letter 'J' into the clouds, and disappeared west of Rawlins in hilly terrain. The weather was wet and cloudy. The observer is a twelve-year old boy traveling with his family on vacation. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director of NUFORC www.ufocenter.com. CANADA HOVERING FLYING TRIANGLE HALTON, ONTARIO -- On May 13, 2000, I was driving home during a thunderstorm and noticed an odd craft flying slowly above a 100 feet high escarpment at 1:00 AM. I noticed that the aircraft's position changed very slightly as I approached. I kept my eye on it until I reached a distance of only 50 feet from its' position. It was hovering over a small abandoned house just off the road. I stopped the car and watched it change direction 180 degrees and slowly pass directly above me. The craft did not look like a spacecraft, but was flying in terrible weather with tornadoes forecast. It made no sound and traveled at less than 50 km/hour. It looked man made with several flashing lights on the bottom. At first I thought it was a B-2 stealth bomber, but its' fuselage and cockpit were extended past the wings. The wings were large and delta shaped, and the front resembled that of a Concord. It may have been flat in height. My conclusion is that it was man made like a futuristic observing craft. The escarpment eliminates chances of a tornado occurring within a fairly large radius of area. I found a similar report of a hovering aircraft sighting over Wood Dale, Illinois on April 25, 2000. You can use my story but I wish to remain anonymous. Thanks to Bob. Brian Callaghan writes, "What I saw this spring at dusk defies explanation. I watched a 'V- shaped wing' fly slowly and deliberately towards the west. It had diffuse white lights across the leading edge with the center one being brighter than the others. It had no blinking lights nor did it make a sound. I was very close to it as well. The craft was larger than the distance between my out stretched arms. I can identify planes even from a distance. Thanks to Brian Callaghan bjcallaghan@hotmail.com ITALY CYLINDER SHAPED UFO DOMODOSSOLA (CREVOLA D'OSSOLA) (VB) -- On or about June 25, 2000, there was a sensational observation of UFOs in Italy. Two objects yellow-orange in color, similar to a cigar with three bright spheres were observed for two hours starting at 9:15 PM. Thanks to Enrico Baccarini Field Investigator Trainee- TURKEY UFOs AND CONFERENCE ISTANBUL -- K.t. Frankovitch just returned from what is billed has the largest UFO conference in the world. She felt it was a wonderful conference with big name speakers like Mack, Friedman, Stevens Hopkins, Ware, Pope etc. The news media in Turkey reports the sightings in a matter of fact matter. She traveled to visit Izmit and Bolu where there had been devastating earthquakes last year. Some 40,000 people died when the earth shook and huge cracks in the earth developed. K.t. was involved in her own disaster in the Miami area with hurricane Andrew where thousands of Americans were killed. She feels that governments have not done enough for the survivors of both tragedies. She warns, "This August may have particularly bad storms, tornadoes, floods, quakes and even wild fires. Thunderstorms will be particularly bad in Louisiana and Texas." From her first hand experience in Miami, she told me, "If your loved ones are in disaster areas, don't trust what your news media tells you. They fail to get the story because they are usually not allowed into the disaster areas." She said, "It's up to you to make contact and take action to help your loved ones; despite reports that aid is on its way, it frequently never arrives. K.t. reports that UFOs are common over Turkey and people treat them as a common occurrence. Interestingly, both towns reported heavy UFO activity for a few weeks before the earthquakes. LIFE ON MARS Carl Sagan was one of scientists most upset when the Viking Lander seemed to rule out life on Mars. Many NASA scientists had come to the conclusion there was no life on Mars mainly because of cold temperatures and its apparent lack of liquid water. Despite great controversy data was interpreted to deny the presence of life on Mars. Carl Sagan wrote, "Most of the present evidence suggesting life on Mars is of a different character." Each year, as the Martian ice caps recede towards the poles, sizable quantities of water vapor are released into the atmosphere. The Martian atmospheric circulation is apparently adequate to transport this water vapor across the equator, so that the water released by the retreat of one polar cap is available for the reformation of the polar cap in the opposite hemisphere. The radius of Mars, R is 3380 km. The circumference of Mars is 2 (R so the distance from pole to pole is R). It takes half a Martian year for the water vapor to travel from pole to pole, or about 344 days. The average rate at which the water vapor travels from pole to pole is about 30 km a day. At the same time that the water vapor is being transported through the atmosphere, a remarkable phenomenon, known as the wave of darkening, occurs on the surface. The dark areas become progressively darker, and their contrast with the unchanging bright areas increases. This occurs in a wavelike movement, the from of the darkening wave progressing from the vaporizing polar cap towards and across the equator, and into the opposite hemisphere. Half a Marian year later, the wave of darkening proceeds in the opposite direction. The wave of darkening is not subject to the uncertainties of eyeball astronomy; it has been repeatedly photographed, and quantitatively measured on telescopes equipped for photometry. The wave of darkening proceeds according to recent measurement by the Greek astronomer J. Focas of the Athens Observatory, at an average rate of 35 km per day, close enough to the presumed rate of transport of water vapor in the atmosphere to suggest that the phenomenon are connected. It is this seasonal contrast enhancement which is the source of reports of seasonal color changes on Mars. (Snip) There is an alternative explanation of the wave of darkening. Mars appears to be an arid world. If there are organisms there, we might expect them to be very responsive to the availability of water. Mars is further from the Sun than Earth is, and we might expect any photosynthetic plants on Mars to be more hungry for photons than are plants from Earth. We observe that when the local humidity increases, the Martian dark areas become darker. Are we in fact observing the seasonal growth and proliferation of Martian vegetation? Intelligent Life in the Universe by Cal Sagan and I. S. Shklovskii, Dell Publishing 1966. Last week, Edward Carpenter of the State University of New York at Stony Brook said, "Scientists have detected hardy microbes that thrive in extreme conditions of ultraviolet radiation, cold, scarcity of liquid water and darkness at the South Pole." ` `Bacteria in South Pole snow, was metabolically active and synthesizing DNA and protein at local ambient temperatures of 10.4 degrees to 1.4 degrees Fahrenheit (minus 12 to minus 17 Celsius). These conditions are not too different from those on Mars. An expert in circadian biology, Joseph Miller has taken special interest in one of three Viking Lander biology investigations conducted on Mars in 1976. Called the Labeled Release experiment, a sample of Martian soil was mixed with a nutrient "soup" containing radioactive carbon-14. If living organisms were in the soil sample, they would digest the radioactively labeled nutrients, then give off gases indicating the presence of life metabolizing the nutrient. On Mars, the Viking assay detected a surge in the radioactivity of released gases. "Every organism that we know of on Earth has a circadian rhythm. It's reasonable to think this holds true for any microbes on Mars." Those results remain not only puzzling, but controversial as well. The investigator behind the experiment, Gilbert Levin, President of Biospherics Inc., Beltsville, Md., has long held that the gas releases mean living microorganisms were found. Other experts counter that a nonbiological response was seen. But in pouring over published results from that Viking experiment, Miller did a double take. He saw evidence of Martian life in a different way. "There's a rhythm in the release of radioactive-labeled gas in that experiment," Miller said. "There might have been an organism producing methane or carbon dioxide. But the real kicker is the existence of a circadian rhythm in that data. Every organism that we know of on Earth has a circadian rhythm. It's reasonable to think this holds true for any microbes on Mars," he said. Editor's Note: It is my opinion that there has been a plan to delay the disclosure of life on Mars for as long as possible, because once the public realizes there is life on Mars the hundreds of UFO sightings per month take on much greater significance. Every few years Mars is hit with tremendous windstorms with 200 mph winds that raise voluminous dust clouds and obscure the surface. When these winds subside, there is a noticeable greening of the planet. This greening according to scientists is actually greenish ferrites making it only appear the planet has plant life or microorganisms similar to lichen. This greening is called false foliage. If those clouds contain water and the temperatures increased the greening may real. During a summer day on Mars, the temperature reaches a balmy 68-Fahrenheit. Up until a few weeks ago, we were told there was little or no water and there was no life on Mars based on the Viking Lander's findings. I suggest the results from the Viking Lander experiments were inaccurate due to preconceived notions of what would be found. Even at the time, there was a great deal of controversy regarding the findings. Because I had chased and seen first hand UFOs I knew they exist, I had seen Air Force documents that state that within our Solar system Mars had the best chance for life. Most newspapers are losing readership while UFO Internet sights, UFO radio shows, are increasing their circulation. Its only a matter of time before the most respected media outlets will start to realize UFOs sell newspapers and gain an audience. SUPPRESSION OF ET KNOWLEDGE AND THE TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE CONSPIRACY -- Tim Cooper writes,"Governments and religious authority have a long history of suppressing knowledge that conflicts with traditional beliefs regarding man's origin and contact with extraterrestrials." As with UFO/alien secrecy, the He brew Bible containing secrets of Jehovah (YHWH known by scholars as the Tetregrammaton, Greek, for the four letters for the name of God) were classified and held secret by tyrants, kings, princes, yes, even by whole empires, have striven to destroy these truly majestic documents. Please see, http://home.earthlink.net/~rcollins634/reports/tim_cooper_bible _ ufos.html BEFORE YOU BUY OR SELL A HOME SEE MY FREE REPORT -- All real estate agents are not the same? Some real estate agents or sales representatives are part timers and inexperienced. Others are experts with an excellent experience and capabilities. When you are selling or buying your home, you need to make sure you have the best real estate agent working for you before you make any important financial decisions on one your biggest investments! Remember, the majority of people do not know the right questions to ask, and what pit falls can cause major problems. Picking the right real estate agent can be a wonderful experience, and picking the wrong one can be a big mistake that can waste your time and cost you thousands! Find out, "What you need to understand before hiring any real estate agent!" These are the questions that many agents do not want you to ask. Learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent for your needs. To get a free copy of this report, just call (609) 654-0020 or e-mail us at Majorstar@aol.com. We can also help you with your own or corporate Worldwide Relocation to Australia, Benelux, Canada, Cayman Is. England, France, Guam, Hong Kong, Israel, Japan, Mexico, New Zealand, Northern Ireland, Papua New Guinea, Philippines, Puerto Rico, and US. US GOVERNMENT UFO PROOF RELEASED: Audio tapes of a genuine UFO Alert at Edwards Air Force base and studied by the Foreign Technology Division at Wright Patterson Air Force Base, are now available for distribution to the public. Sam Sherman's audio documentary tape called EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE ENCOUNTER on the night of October 7, 1965, uses the actual voice recordings provided by the Air Force. During this event 12 high tech luminous UFOs invade secure air space and came down low over the runways at Edwards AFB. Tower operator Sgt. Chuck Sorrels spotted them and notified the Air Defense Command. Sgt. Sorrels is heard on the original tapes and in a new segment where he verifies the event as it is heard on the archival recordings. The UFOs are described and a decision is made to launch F-106 fighter interceptors. You are there for an important part of UFO history. Hear it for yourself, it's the best UFO tape ever made. Tape cost is $14.95 each plus $2.00 for shipping -- total $16.95 -- (for overseas orders-out of US - add $6.00 shipping cost -- total -- $20.95) you can send either a personal check or money order to: Independent International Pictures Corp, Box 565, Dept. GF, Old Bridge, New Jersey 08857. PHOTOGRAPH BOOKLET of some of the best UFO shots available and data on their propulsion systems by US Navy Commander Graham Bethune.. $10.00. Send check or money order to G. Filer 222 Jackson Road, Medford, New Jersey 08055 MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative reports subscribe by contacting MUFONHQ@Aol.com. Mention I recommended you for membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2000 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved. 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Edmonton Sun - St. Paul UFO Conference From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 02:44:58 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 01:00:37 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Edmonton Sun - St. Paul UFO Conference Source: The Edmonton Sun (Alberta, Canada) via Canoe, http://www.canoe.ca/EdmontonNews/es.es-07-10-0011.html Stig *** Monday, July 10, 2000 The phenomena are real. The observers? By DOUG BEAZLEY, EDMONTON SUN Three days I spent in St. Paul, and when a UFO finally buzzed the local trailer park, I was nowhere near. Dammit. James was there - the same no-last-name James who told me the other day how aliens have kidnapped him for mysterious lower-colon experiments on a dozen different occasions. Late Saturday night, after the UFO 2000 conference had wrapped up for the day, James and his buddy Tim stood in a field about a block from the conference hall and watched a glowing white orb shoot across the sky from west to east, then reappear to the south and race straight toward them. "Then it sort of hovered, and went up in the air 'til it disappeared," he said. "It was a Saturn ship ... you know, like a sphere with a ring around the middle. "That's it there," he added, pointing to a photo he took that night - one lonely white dot the size of a pinhead on a field of black. As evidence goes, it's no smoking gun. Not that it matters. The rule in science is you set aside anything you can't explain. But in the paranormal game, anything that can't be explained must be explained, no matter how out-there the explanation turns out to be. "I think a lot of people suffer from what I call category accessibility," said Dr. Jim Butler. He's a U of A professor of conservation biology with many friends in the UFO community - which is what brought him to St. Paul's conference. "Meaning everything they encounter has to have a name and an explanation. Crop circles, lights in the sky, cattle mutilation. The question for me isn't whether these things are happening. The phenomena are real. Something is going on. "But I don't need to have a ready explanation for everything. I'm a good enough scientist not to try to shove square pegs into round holes." There were any number of square pegs kicking around St. Paul over the weekend. Put 100-plus paranormal enthusiasts in the same room and you get a 100-plus theories - and as many people convinced everyone else's theory is cracked. "I've got this friend, he's a channeler, right?" said a wild-eyed man who managed to corner Fernand Belzil, St. Paul's own cattle mutilations expert. "He says the aliens mutilate the cattle to gather organs to make this enzyme slurry they need to feed themselves." "Yah, that could be," said Belzil, backing up a step. During the weekend Belzil made frequent cryptic references to some scientist in the U.S. who was working with him on a new theory related to the cattle mutilations. "It's pretty wild, but I can't tell you more," he said. "This guy told me I'd be putting my life in danger." Later, I asked Missouri UFO researcher Ted Phillips if he knew what Belzil's cutting-edge research angle was all about. "You mean that HIV theory?" he said. "A link between HIV and cattle mutilation?" I replied. "You're kidding." "Oh jeez, don't tell Fern I told you," said Phillips, looking flustered. "It's supposed to be a secret." Between the grainy Polaroids, the blurry video and the highly subjective impressions of UFO abductees, there's not a whole lot to go on in the paranormal field other than faith - and what seems to be a fierce, almost religious desire to experience something from another planet. With that in mind, I dropped in on St. Paul's parish priest before leaving town. Father Roger Sicotte recovered quickly from his puzzlement and warmed to the topic. "Could you baptize an alien?" he asked. "I think you could. God has no place, no time. His is the entire universe. So as long as the creature was capable of faith, it could be baptized. "It would probably have to be catechized first, I think." * Copyright � 2000, Canoe Limited Partnership. All rights reserved.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Italian Painting From: Dan Geib <DanGeib@ArtGomperz.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:01:59 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 01:01:57 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Italian Painting Does anyone have a website or location to view Italian oil painting that is located in the Palazzo Vecchio in Florence. It is from the 1500's and it is a painting of the Virgin Mother and baby Jesus. In the background is a disc and an onlooker pointing at it. I think I saw it in an old 'Look' or 'Life' Magazine but cant recall Thanxz Dan Art Gomperz Bluegrass & Rockabilly http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/band.html Dan's Flatpicking in Michigan http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/flatpicking.htm A Portal to Magic Shows & Acoustic Music Entertainment in Michigan. Guitarist / Magician http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan UFO Folklore ! http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/framemst.html Dan's Magic in Michigan ! http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/magician Dantronix ! http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/testwave.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Earth-Approaching Space Rock Found By Accident From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 03:49:21 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 01:08:40 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Earth-Approaching Space Rock Found By Accident Source: BBC News Online Sci/Tech http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_827000/827010.stm Stig *** Monday, 10 July, 2000, 11:11 GMT 12:11 UK Earth-approaching space rock found by accident The space rock tracks across this 400 second exposure By BBC News Online science editor Dr David Whitehouse ** A new member of the family of asteroids that can pass close to the Earth has been discovered. The space rock was found by accident on 2 July by astronomer Leonard Amburgey of Fitchburg, Massachusetts. He typed in the wrong celestial co-ordinates into his computer-controlled telescope and stumbled across the 3-km (1.8 miles) sized object. The asteroid has been given the temporary designation 2000 NM by the Minor Planet Center in Cambridge, Massachusetts. It poses no threat to Earth. Astronomers say this is the brightest near-Earth asteroid to be discovered in the past year. Professional miss However, they are concerned that it was found by accident and was missed by the half dozen professional minor-planet surveys currently in operation. At the moment, it is about 22 million km (13 million miles) from Earth. It crosses inside the Earth's orbit at the end of July, on its way to its closest approach to the Sun in late August. Since the asteroid's discovery, a variety of telescopes from around the world have been collecting data on it. Astronomers hope that by looking for variations in its brightness they may get some idea of how fast the space rock is spinning. An accurate estimation of its orbit would also help them determine if it is likely to pass close to the Earth in the future. A collision, however, has been ruled out. * Copyright BBC.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Stacy From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:29:57 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 01:43:57 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Stacy >Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 00:19:10 -0500 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 20:35:53 -0500 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>Subject: Re: Selling Files - Clark >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>But who cares, as long as he now knows his Haines from his Hall. >>That's the important thing. >Whatever. >Jerry Clark Jerry, Just jerking your chains on an otherwise slow weekend. You know, the old joke thing. Here's hoping your own humor and irony batteries are fully charged. But the subject thread to which Brookesmith posted, despite your own understandable personal antipathy to Brookesmith, remains a serious one. As a certified elder of the field, your comments, recommendations, criticisms, observations, etc. re same would no doubt be welcome by many (unless you don't have any, of course). As opposed, say, to more MLE testimonials. Whatever. Dennis Stacy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Tonnies From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 21:34:35 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 01:46:32 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Tonnies >Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 22:48:15 +0100 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >Subject: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? >To: UFO UpDates <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Using a digital camera, I've eventually managed to capture a >flicker-free copy of the on-screen image and this can be >seen at: >http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/arnold/arn_new.jpg >Can anyone identify this drawing/where and when it >originated? I've never seen this one before either, so I'm thinking it's an "artist's reconstruction." As far as reconstructions go, it's not bad; I don't see any liberties being taken with Arnold's original descriptions. All in all, it behooves us to again see that Arnold never claimed to have seen disk-shaped UFOs. ===== Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 239 E. Sea Independence, MO 64050 816-833-5910 http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: My Appearance On SDI From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 01:08:48 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 01:51:31 -0400 Subject: UpDate: My Appearance On SDI Hello All, Sorry! Something I have to do. It now appears that certain parties are 'bootchie-booing' about the fact that I was a guest on 'Strange Days... Indeed' last Sunday night after I said on this List that I was "out of this". I cannot believe that some folks have nothing better to do with the time of their life than to concern themselves and write e-mails about the details of my life. I find it astounding _and_ a little disturbing. To anyone that is reading 'more' into my appearance on SDI than is there, the "explanation" for my contradictory behavior is simple; I appeared on SDI because... Errol called me at home and he _invited_ me! Ta-taaaaa! Mystery solved! :) Errol asked if I would come on and do an update on this files for cash business. EBK is my Ace-coon-boon and his wish is my command. I said yes to the invitation of a friend. I also wanted to use the opportunity to 'get the word out' to a few more people. I had been assured by close/trusted associates that I need not fear any lawsuits (now that the story has been confirmed twice by some of the principles involved) and I saw 'no harm' in doing the update on SDI. I hoped to clear up any misconceptions that anyone may have had. People who are not members of this List sometimes get only 'half' the story. Tho I dood it! :) Beat me! First the "Hopkins Herring" and now this. I'm sorry. I cannot/will not respond to every assumption, misread, or outright fantasy that anyone may dream up and try to pin on me. I don't feel obligated to do so. Anyone who wishes to perceive my actions and motivations in some convoluted fashion has my permission and blessing to do so. Think and say whatever you want of me. Me and my other 16 twisted personalities collectively, (and now 'officially') concur that we just don't care! :) For the _last_ time: When I said that I was "out of this", I meant that I was through investigating it myself. After the confirmations from Andrus and Bigelow I no longer felt the need to do so. It had been confirmed. At this point it is up to all of _you_ to insure that such a violation does not happen to an abductee again. I have already offered the members of the AIC list written and signed assurances that their privacy and anonymity will be maintained. If we can get everybody else who deals with abductees to do likewise we will all have done a good thing. I will not be responding to anymore 'made up nonsense' from anyone. Honest, I just don't have the time or the stomach for it. I'm a 51 year old man. I'm trying to enjoy a little life. Gimme a break! Regards, John Velez, Tired of the BS -- ______________________________________________ A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center - www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm jvif@spacelab.net "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ______________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Another MJ-12 Source - Stacy From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 00:52:47 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 01:56:40 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Another MJ-12 Source - Stacy >Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:44:34 -0400 >Subject: Another MJ-12 Source >From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Met another MJ12 source. Individual is a senior retired AF >officer who participated in many black projects. >He found the Dan Sherman's 'Project Preserve Destiny' book very >plausible and spoke of US studies to manipulate EM mentally. He >also thought the principle of noise cancellation could be >applied to destroy and/or control weapon systems. <considerable snip> Bob, Gee, that's really great news, never mind that it's completely unsubstantiated on your part. Meanwhile, here are my hot stock picks for the rest of the next week/month: AAPL - Apple Computers DIGL - Digital Lightwave ACCL - Accelerated Networks IDCC - Interdigital Communications Notice (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) that all of the above are based on alien technology originally recovered from Roswell, New Mexico, per Phillip Corso. 'Nuff said! Caveat empor and all that. Dennis Stacy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 03:15:38 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:38:47 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Velez >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >To: "02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers":; >Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Brookesmith >Date: Mon, Jul 10, 2000, 11:43 PM >Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 20:25:05 -0400 >From: Peter Brookesmith, Duke of Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >With the Duke of Mendoza's compliments: >>Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 20:54:55 -0400 >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Re: Selling Files >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> ><snip> >>Anyway, just some thoughts from a hopeful "abductee". But >>wouldn't it be wonderful for all concerned if that little >>fantasy ever became reality? >Dear Liz: >Yes, it would, and the spirit of what you say, if not the >detailed proposal, is remarkably close to that of John Velez's >contribution to my book on abductions (and indeed what he's said >elsewhere). >But it won't happen as long as abductologists have an interest >in proving a particular case (in the sense of demonstrating an >argument, even following an agenda) rather than offering >findings for comment & further investigation. For example. Hello Duke, G*ddamit Peter don't piss me off! I'm reading your posting with interest saying to myself this Hopkins business has -little- to do with what Liz was talking about but I'm reading it anyway and finding some of your comments to be reasonable when I start to come across these: >Linda Cortibalone's >Cortaweenie case >Cortaloone's son Johnny etc.etc.etc. Ok Peter, so you try to 'slip one past the goalie' and use your response to Liz to play on an old saw of yours, Hopkins/Cortile, which is fine (if you can get away with it!) :) That's ok Peter, you usually have something of value to contribute. But then you soil yourself by ragging on Linda Cortile, an abductee, with complete disrespect and disregard. Dude, have you lost it completely? Don't make me whip out the Queensbury Rules! Say what you have to say without wiping your boots on the subject of the case in question. I'll sign you up for a heap of Internet junk mail if you don't knock it off Mendoza! Think of it,..."Make money from home ads" and "Gay porno" delivered night and day to your e-mail box until you drop! <LOL> You're a bright guy. You're able to rise above the level you have demonstarted in this insulting post. Try it again without the personal swipes. It'll make for a more palatable read. This one stuck in my craw. Regards, John Velez, Jr. Officer, S.A.F.P. (Straight Abductees for Fair Play!)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Italian Painting - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 02:27:27 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:43:41 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Italian Painting - Hatch >Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:01:59 -0700 >From: Dan Geib <DanGeib@ArtGomperz.com> >Subject: Italian Painting >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Does anyone have a website or location to view Italian oil >painting that is located in the Palazzo Vecchio in Florence. It >is from the 1500's and it is a painting of the Virgin Mother >and baby Jesus. In the background is a disc and an onlooker >pointing at it. I think I saw it in an old 'Look' or 'Life' >Magazine but cant recall >Dantronix ! >http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/testwave.html Hi Dan: Chances are this was what you were looking for. Please click on the URL below. http://www.spookyfox.freeuk.com/painting.htm Best wishes - Larry Hatch - - - -
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 01:21:59 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:42:23 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 - Hatch >Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 18:22:45 -0400 (EDT) >From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 04:56:47 -0700 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 22:50:15 +0100 >>>From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> >>>Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 - Hatch >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 01:02:41 -0700 >>>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >>>>Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - July 2000 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>Desmond Leslie! That is interesting. >>>>>Did Leslie have anything to say about his present perception of >>>>>Adamski and/or his contactee claims? <snip> >>>Hi Larry >>>Re the Italian conference; I'm only posting on behalf of Nick >>>Pope who is not on-line, sorry I was not at the conference and >>>am unable to answer your questions. However, Nick tells me that >>>he will be covering this issue in his August column. >>Thank you Georgina! >>I'm sure many of us would be interested in any more we can learn >>about Leslie's opinions at this late date. <snip> >Well, I was there. >In a few words, Desmond Leslie (who is a very nice person) still >believes that there is truth in Adamski's story. But he admitted >in his public speech that Adamski was also capable of telling >tall tales. If Desmond Leslie is right, then this is a case >where a witness has been both telling truths and lies.... Well, nobody lies _all_ the time. >As an example of truth, Leslie cited his visit to the Pope in >Rome, which he believes to be authentic. If I remember well, he >said that Adamski showed to a mutual friend a gold medal that >the Pope had given to him. The Pope was delighted to see him, >Adamski said, because he "had been told" that he would have such >a visitor who would talk to him about our extraterrestrial >friends... At the end of his speech, Leslie told that Adamski >had revealed, at the end of his life, that he was not born on >Earth: he had been brought at the age of three, and he did not >have a navel! >I can hear already the loud laughters. >And, please, don't say I believe this : I don't know. Dear Gildas! Nobody will accuse you of believing Adamski came to Earth at the age of three, having left his navel behind. I had hoped that somebody would have asked Leslie about Adamski at the conference; some little detail that might shed light on his credibility. You have come through magnificently, and should be congratulated! Very best wishes - Larry Hatch - - -
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Italian Painting - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 02:35:21 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:45:24 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Italian Painting - Hatch >Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:01:59 -0700 >From: Dan Geib <DanGeib@ArtGomperz.com> >Subject: Italian Painting >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Does anyone have a website or location to view Italian oil >painting that is located in the Palazzo Vecchio in Florence. It >is from the 1500's and it is a painting of the Virgin Mother >and baby Jesus. In the background is a disc and an onlooker >pointing at it. I think I saw it in an old 'Look' or 'Life' >Magazine but cant recall Hello Again: Here's another copy from a different website. The full painting is not shown as well, its smaller. But, the enlargements are better. The discoid "craft" was painted to show some sort of colorful rays coming out in all directions. http://www.isso.org/inbox/ubd/case/filippo.htm Comparison to the middle blow-up, the one with the man and dog looking at object, shows that these rays are not simple brush hairs ( i.e. some clumsy work ) but are deliberate. No such loose "hairs" show on the dog or the man. Maybe the disk, ovoid (whatever) was intended as some sort of religious or mystical symbol. Best - Larry Hatch - - - - - -
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Another MJ-12 Source - Huff From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 05:34:52 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:47:46 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Another MJ-12 Source - Huff Hi, Dennis Stacy writes: >Bob, >Gee, that's really great news, never mind that it's completely >unsubstantiated on your part. >Meanwhile, here are my hot stock picks for the rest of the next >week/month: >AAPL - Apple Computers >DIGL - Digital Lightwave >ACCL - Accelerated Networks >IDCC - Interdigital Communications >Notice (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) that all of the above are >based on alien technology originally recovered from Roswell, New >Mexico, per Phillip Corso. >'Nuff said! >Caveat empor and all that. Unlike LTC Corso the source was a full Colonel with 20 years in service who flew a variety of aircraft to include F4, F15, and F16s. He also directly involved in the development of the F117 and B2 programs. He was on the 'General track' but opted to get out. Caveat emptor, indeed. I am reporting the testimony of a single individual whose story corroborates testimony of others I know. Best, Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: UpDate: Another MJ-12 Source - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 02:40:09 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:49:37 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: UpDate: Another MJ-12 Source - Hatch >Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:44:34 -0400 >Subject: Another MJ-12 Source >From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Met another MJ12 source. Individual is a senior retired AF >officer who participated in many black projects. <snip> >- US nuclear weapons design has benefited for MJ12 > >- The US has will assassinates foreign nations in the US. <snip> Bob: Could you re-phrase the sentence above: " The US has will.. etc."? I can't make any sense of it. Best - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: UFO TV Documentaries? From: royjhale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:26:57 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:52:52 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: UFO TV Documentaries? Ian Read wrote: >>Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 22:35:42 +0100 >>From: Ian Read <i.read@i-read.freeserve.co.uk> >>Subject: UFO TV Documentaries? >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Hello, >>I am currently working on my UFO web site, and I am planning on >>having a section devoted to respectable documentaries that have >>been produced on UFOs. >>So if you have any views on what documentaries are worth >>watching etc. My personally favourites are the 1995 Network >>First special and the 'Riddles of The Skies' series of a few >>years back. >>Ian. Hi, Good UFO Docs are few and far between, especially over here in the UK the KGB UFO Files wasn't bad, and you could try UFOs The Best Evidence By George Knapp. You could also contact UK Horizons and Discovery Europe for their UFO program listing over the years. What part of the UK are you from Ian? If you need any UFO Video DATA drop me a line. Regards, Roy.. http://members.netscapeonline.co.uk/royjhale/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: UFO TV Documentaries? - Friedman From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:34:40 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:55:16 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: UFO TV Documentaries? - Friedman >Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 22:35:42 +0100 >From: Ian Read <i.read@i-read.freeserve.co.uk> >Subject: UFO TV Documentaries? >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Hello, >I am currently working on my UFO web site, and I am planning on >having a section devoted to respectable documentaries that have >been produced on UFOs. >So if you have any views on what documentaries are worth >watching etc. My personally favourites are the 1995 Network >First special and the 'Riddles of The Skies' series of a few >years back. >Ian. 'UFOS ARE REAL', was produced by Group 1 in 1979. It was shown on TV on a number of occasions. It is 93 minutes long and includes interviews with Dr. Bruce Maccabee, Dr. James Harder, Dr. Richard Haines, Dr. George Mitchell (OSU astronomer), Betty Hill, Travis Walton, Marjorie Fish, Jesse Marcel Sr., Ted Phillips, Colonel Larry Coyne, Colonel Wendel Stevens, and myself. It also includes rare footage of an electromagnetic submarine in operation and a nuclear rocket in operation (not together). Unfortunately, it also includes a 2 minute segment on Billy Meier which I tried unsuccessfully to exclude and is the only case discussed which I did _not_ stand behind. I was co-script writer, technical advisor and on location . A limited number of copies are available from UFORI, POB 958, Houlton, ME 04730-0958 for only $15. including postage. We all looked a lot younger. Most of the interviews were done at the home base of the interviewee. Stan Friedman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Hale From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:45:08 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:00:17 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Hale J E wrote: >>Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 22:48:15 +0100 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >>Subject: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? >>To: UFO UpDates <updates@sympatico.ca> > >>I recent acquired from a second-hand CD and video shop, a 1993 >>video entitled, "The UFO Phenomenon", by Labyrinth Media Ltd. >>Always curious if these older productions might contain >>worthwhile/little-known material, I've only got so far as the >>Arnold case and would you believe it... Hi, Is the Arnold Case for ever on going in the hearts and minds of Investigators around the world? Does there ever come a time when we say, I think we have reached a conclusive full and final report into the Arnold Case? I ask because it seems that this sighting (one amongst thousands) has been set as a kind of marker, for the battleground of 'Exist - Does Not Exist' theory. Is there any investigator/researcher out there who is still striving to find other answers to this sighting, apart from James? And can someone please post to this list, how many official reports on this sighting have been made since the event, and the conclusions? I would like to ask James directly what is it he thinks that Arnold saw over Mt. Rainer? 1: Intelligent controlled Extraterrestrial vehicles. 2: Military vehicles of some kind. 3: Wildlife. 4: Natural Phenomena. 5: Meteorological Phenomena. 6: An illusion due to Aviation sickness. Regards, Roy..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 Silliness - Bruni From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:53:08 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:02:02 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 Silliness - Bruni >Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 18:58:03 -0400 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 Silliness - Bruni >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Dear Greg >Why, if they're doing such fine research, didn't they know what >the Roosevelt memo was? I'd be curious to know -- just >speculating here -- I did also mention that I think it's a slow process. I understand the Wood's are spending a great deal of time on on the actual documents. >Yes, we all have to know what the historical facts are, if we're >doing ufological research that involves any area of history. But >the people who know those historical facts are professional >historians, and they're the ones we ought to be consulting, >rather than speculating ourselves. That's exactly what I made a point of earlier on this list Greg, that we should consult the experts in their field rather than play around with something we don't understand fully. I recently consulted an historian who helped me considerably. >If we don't do that, we're simply amateurs. Maybe established >scholars will prove too conservative to go down the ultimate >UFO road, if such a thing is out there to be discovered. But >they'll at least save us from silly mistakes. I don't think it matters whether they believe in UFOs or not, it's their knowledge of a particular area of the research that's important. After all, we can't be the "jack of all trades" as the saying goes. With regards to the MJ12 documents. I'm glad some people are taking the time to research them, albeit that they might have missed that important piece of information. As far as I recall the Wood's have appealed to researchers more than once for any information that might help with that research. Having said that, last week I emailed one of them with a titbit of information that they might not have had - but so far I have not even received a courtesy reply. Georgina Bruni
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Selling Files - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:08:24 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 15:12:56 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Selling Files - Clark >Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 18:50:01 -0400 >From: Peter Brookesmith, Duke of Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 00:33:15 -0500 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Selling Files - Brookesmith >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Mr. Brookesmith: >Okay, Jerry: if you can't answer the question directly, let's >try the indirect, tacking approach. To make life easier for you, >I have appended little boxes for you to tick or otherwise mark >when answering the following questions. Please mark only one box >for each question. The UFO Encyclopedia stands or falls on its own, and if you want to do it differently, write your own, if you haven't done so already. Beyond that: give it a rest, guy, and get a life. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:26:10 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 15:14:21 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Clark >Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:29:57 -0500 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 00:19:10 -0500 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Selling Files >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 20:35:53 -0500 >>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>>Subject: Re: Selling Files - Clark >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Dennis, >As a certified elder of the field, your comments, >recommendations, criticisms, observations, etc. re same would no >doubt be welcome by many (unless you don't have any, of course). A "certified elder," eh? You and Brookesmith, who more than once has called me the "Boy Bishop of Canby," should get your story straight. >As opposed, say, to more MLE testimonials. Or, even more deplorably, more pointless digs at the undersigned. Now you'll have to excuse me as I recharge my humor batteries.... Cheers, Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:45:24 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 15:17:05 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... If you turn to page 273 in The Book, the Savior speaks: "In fact, the U. S. military has better, more accurate, and more powerful weapons for killing UFOs than were deployed in the movie "Independence Day." "We can knock these guys down tomorrow with high-energy lasers and directed particle=beam weapons that come right out of a "Star Wars" movie. And these aren't fiction, they're fact. If you want to know move, pay a visit to the U. S. Army Space Command Website on the Internet. The missile-launched HELs ar the pride of our planetary defense system and a direct result of President Reagan's courage in pushing for the Strategic Defense Initiative when everyone said it wouldn't work. And that SDI was a direct result of the work General Trudeau and I did at Army R&D in 1962. "Sometimes things just work the way they're supposed to. Sometimes, once in a very long while, you get the chance to save your country, your planet, and even your species at the same time....." We know this is true because many people here say that Corso was an honorable man. A man who would not lie. Just one question then, what was that little exercise the other day to try to shoot down another missile? Why should we need that at all, if Corso's claims are true? If we can shoot down ET at will, a simple ballistic missile ( i. e. an object stuck in the gravity well with no great evasion capability) is child's play. A $100,000,000 test failure is just a cover up for the Phil Corso's defense system? Yes, of course, I'll say it first, so no one has to post it. Like Tarzan swing through the jungle on vines, some in the UFO field swings from one set of weirdness to another. Now comes MJ-12 back again. It is interesting that posters have done little independent digging, except it seem for Greg. Nice work Greg! The MJ-12 seems to be modeled after material from General George Marshall's papers. In fact, one MJ-12 document from the first set had an altered letter from Marshall to Republican presidential candidate Dewey concerning the Japanese "Magic" code intercepts in 1944. The dates and and names had been changed and the word Majic substituted for the word Magic. You won't find any mention of this in the Woods' work. Actually, the Woods go out of their way *not* to detect any problems with the MJ-12 documents. As previously mentioned, the style of the Marshall letters and messages are incorporated into the MJ-12 documents. Although military Top Secret documents from the 1947 era had Top Secret control numbers, TS documents during World War II did not. One can view various TS documents with the control numbers at the Project 1947 website: http://www.project1947.com/ This is the first hint. Cooper's first set of documents do not. I expect any new documents from Cooper on MJ-12 will incorporate them now. If you will notice, some documents in Cooper's first set are addressed to the Director of Naval Intelligence. During WW II, it was indeed the Director of Naval Intelligence. However, about October 1945 the title changed to Chief of Naval Intelligence. So the Cooper 1947 documents are wrong. Director of Naval Intelligence again became the title about 1948. Two years of research on the Wood's part did not detect this. Second hint. "Eyes Only." Marshall had summaries of the most important Magic intercepts distributed daily to various US officials, President, Adm Leahy, etc. He had a list and only those officials were allowed to see the papers. Additional many were mark "Eyes Only." This is not a security classification, however. As many of Marshall's message to Devers, Eisenhower, etc were marked Top Secret, "Eyes only General Devers." Marshall and General Hap Arnold exchanged letters about Arnold's health situation in which Arnold would mark the letters for Marshall "secret (eyes only)." Where did the word "Majestic" come from? Well, I am not going to tell, do your own research. It is more satisfying that way. Now we have the Eisenhower Briefing document which has one scenario and the Cooper MJ-12 documents that have another. Both can't be right. Most haven't noticed the contradictions. Stan Friedman and the Woods will be at the MUFON conference; so one would expect sparks to fly, but in keeping with "not being negative" no contradictions will be mentioned. I don't think we will hear any comments at all about these two different scenarios. Friedman and the Woods have indeed taken swipes at each other. Friedman mentioned that some of Cooper's documents were "parodies." of other documents. The one thing the Woods have done, is brought to light that SOM 1-01 came from Kirtland AFB. What honest, upstanding, honorable military man associated with Bill Moore also came from Kirtland? Now someone recently posted a number of characteristics of MJ-12 that his informant told him about. He missed one. Incredibly stupid! As pointed out before, SOM 1-01, is completely silent about overhead cover to prevent observation of any UFO recovery from the air or from higher ground. Has no one heard of camouflage nets? Something a pilot or any Army guy would be familiar with: the necessity of overhead cover. But an OSI type who has probably never seen a field exercise? If you were never close to a field exercise you wouldn't think of that. Of course, may be MJ-12 is incredibly stupid. They do leave manuals and paperwork where it can easily be copied and transferred to Cooper's mail box. One ufologist told me he was relectant to write an expose of the Cooper papers as it would just tell the hoaxers how to do it better the next time. A valid concern, I believe. Actually, looking at the latest crop of MJ-12 stuff, it is less convincing than the former. However, I do believe that subsequent material found in Cooper's mail box or more likely sent directly to the Woods will be much better and will no longer reflect the sytle of doucments found in the Marshall Papers. Since Cooper has a wide range of FOIAs in right now, on diverse subjects, I expect that the new MJ-12 documents will reveal a number of changes in style and content. The main things about the MJ-12 documents, we don't know where they came from, and we can't find any link in the real world. Jan Aldrich
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Easton From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:34:27 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 15:18:04 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Easton Regarding: >>Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 21:34:35 -0700 (PDT) >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> >>Subject: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 22:48:15 +0100 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >Subject: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? >To: UFO UpDates <updates@sympatico.ca> Mac wrote: >>Can anyone identify this drawing/where and when it originated? >I've never seen this one before either, so I'm thinking it's an >"artist's reconstruction." As far as reconstructions go, it's >not bad; I don't see any liberties being taken with Arnold's >original descriptions. Mac, At the time of writing, I still don't know where this originated, however, even though I had likewise at first assumed this could be an "artist's impression", I would be greatly surprised if that's correct. Objections? It's a very rough sketch and surely an artist's reconstruction would be more, well, 'artistic'!. Perhaps something similar to the well-known 'crescent-shaped object' sketch in that photograph of Arnold displaying said drawing. It's also a peculiar, quite specific, depiction of the flight profile and not what I would expect from an artist who had simply read details of Arnold's sighting- especially if after the 'flying saucer' hysteria. Further, it's surely more likely that an artist would depict one of the objects, or several of the objects in formation, rather than the three-stage profile we see. I'm reasonably confident this is a 'genuine Arnold' and if so, dating it would be hugely insightful. >All in all, it behooves us to again see that Arnold never >claimed to have seen disk-shaped UFOs. Thanks for your opinion and I hope this can be resolved either way. I'm sure someone will recognise the source. James Easton. E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk www.ufoworld.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Italian Painting - Salvaille From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:52:53 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 15:19:04 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Italian Painting - Salvaille >Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 02:27:27 -0700 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >Subject: Re: Italian Painting >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:01:59 -0700 >>From: Dan Geib <DanGeib@ArtGomperz.com> >>Subject: Italian Painting >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Does anyone have a website or location to view Italian oil >>painting that is located in the Palazzo Vecchio in Florence. It >>is from the 1500's and it is a painting of the Virgin Mother >>and baby Jesus. In the background is a disc and an onlooker >>pointing at it. I think I saw it in an old 'Look' or 'Life' >>Magazine but cant recall >>Dantronix ! >>http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/testwave.html >Hi Dan: >Chances are this was what you were looking for. Please click on >the URL below. >http://www.spookyfox.freeuk.com/painting.htm Larry, Dan and List, This one gives more image details: http://www.isso.org/inbox/ubd/case/filippo.htm The best I guess is: http://www.celestcom.com/Gateway/UFOs/Madonna.html Regards, Serge
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 7-8-00 - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 15:04:08 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 15:22:28 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 7-8-00 - Mortellaro >Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:38:13 +0200 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de> >Subject: Re: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 7-8-00 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 07:34:44 +0000 >>From: Rense E-News <jocelyn@the-i.net> >>Subject: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 7-8-00 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>---------------------------------------------------------------- >> Jeff Rense Weekly E-News >>---------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> The Week Ahead >> 7-9-00 thru 7-16-00 >> Guests, Announcements, Week's Top Stories >> From sightings.com >> Jeff Rense E-News is distributed >> exclusively by Free Subscription. >> >>Snip >>FRI 7-14 >> Brad Steiger: A Paranormal Evening > >Dear EBK and listfolks, > >Jeff Rense's post on this list disturbs me and causes me to >raise a question. Why is it on the list? The page usually opens >with Mr. Rense's morbid fears as conveyed through seers, >visionaries, and other prophets of apocalyptic doom. Now I am >not calling them wackos but I imagine many people would. Unless >we are simply fools ignoring the approaching end times and >destruction. Oh my, now you went and did it. You did. You really did it. You went and sloshed all over my Rense persona. Say Josh, are you attempting to fit the battle of Jericho? It's on Long Island you know. Jericho. Anyway, I would aks, "Why not?" on this list. Traditionally, Jeff Rense has among his many other virtues, a long standing number of years on the news business. Read: "Journalist! His reputation as a journalist is top notch. And all the news that's fit to print don't hafta be UFO's. And it don't hafta be Rinso's personal belief. It just hasta be news. And among the UFO posts and radio shows, there are other paranormal, ecological and real as well as somewhat, uh, unusual, news. Shall we now set up a system whereby EBK must post not onyl the name, CV and content in the title header but also sift the UFO stuff from the rest? Also, that UFOs are not always on the top of Jeff's list of subjects doesn't much matter to me, as the depth of coverage of the material presented on the show, UFO and otherwise, justifies it's presence there. "Further," why are you disturbed? And why do you refer to the columns as "Jeff's morbid fears?" They are not _his_ morbid fears. They represent the opinions of those whose posts make it to the site or to the show. Or both. All UFO's and no variety makes for a dull Rinse. Heh, heh. That's supposed to be funny, Doctor Rinse, Rense. Sorry. But wait, there's more. Whilst in the process of not calling the whackos, whackos, you called them whackos. Eh? See Josh? >Sure, I know it has been prophesized for a couple of thousand >years. Those predictions came and went and nothing happened. But >look how immoral we have become now. Perhaps it will arrive as I >write this. I'll say good bye now in case that happens. OK, I >got to the end of the sentence, so far so good. And you did that oh, so well, Joshua. May I call you Josh? Thank you. >Why do I read that stuff and not just delete? Why should I have >to delete stuff that seems like it shouldn't be on here in the >first place? Sure, his service is presenting news stories and >announcing guests, but take another look. Out of 26 news stories >from last week only 3 seem to be UFO related. I know, the >Chupacabra may be UFO related, so I concede a possible 4th >story. I bow to the Gods who reside in El Yunque. A hissey fit over Rense is the worst possible hissey fit one may have (except for a hissey fit over EBK). Why not delete? Well heck, Josh. Porquoi pas? (Sorry to all those Inuit Canadians what speak French, but I can't remember my high school French very well). Josh. Just hit "DELETE" anyway. My suggestion. >Only 2 days this week are UFO guests listed on his radio show. >Why can't it be requested of Mr. Rense that he just post stories >and announce guests that are UFO related? He could write posts >like anyone else. Why does his production get a free forum on >here to spew these apocalyptic "prophecies" and extreme right >wing "patriot" paranoia? He also gets to advertise the goods he >sells. If I want to get snitty, why don't I start posting >prophecies and visions on here also? Sure I'll follow it with a >UFO related tidbit. Why don't you start posting them? Why don't >we all? Let's have fun deleting. Josh, let me aks you a question, OK? Why assail one of (if not "THE") best personalities in the business, one with the best rep out there as a Talk Radio host, when (in my opinion) we should be assailing those who hurt, lie, inflame (there's much more) and cast stones instead? Huh? Hell, day is lotsa dem around. Just look at the last twenty five posts and tell me I'm wrong. >Personally, I feel very uncomfortable about anyone acting as a >conduit of UFO information who has such extreme views and a lack >of journalism standards. I would not appear on his show. I do believe I am correct by saying that these are the views of Mr. Rense's guests, both on the site and on the air. Why assign culpability where it does not exist? As for your discomfiture, drink Gripple. It tickles. >How do you feel about the above? >Josh Goldstein >UFO Love Parade uber Berlin UFO parade over Berlin. Uh, sorry, Nicht sprechen Deutsch. Ein spritzel Swissa Deutsch undt ein pissle Gripple. But that one eludes my Quaaludes dude. Jim Mortellaro
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:05:51 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:01:28 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... >Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:45:24 -0400 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >Subject: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >The main things about the MJ-12 documents, we don't know where >they came from, and we can't find any link in the real world. >Jan Aldrich This is a point I brought up some time ago regarding MJ-12 and other so-called UFO/Government documents. Not one of these bozos involved in researching these documents has any knowledge as to their origin. This is a mistake made time and time again in this field, from phoney alien autopsy footage to bogus UFO documents. A word of advice, know your source and always question it. Jan, nice posting and a well rounded statement regarding MJ-12 and other types of alleged UFO documents. Some researchers want to point to all the credible supporting evidence but continue to ignore evidence to the contrary. Regards, Royce J. Myers III eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy - "Don't Trip On Your Open Mind." eXpos News http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3 UFO Hall o' Shame http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Friedman From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:46:02 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:06:13 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Friedman >Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:45:24 -0400 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >Subject: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >The MJ-12 seems to be modeled after material from General George >Marshall's papers. In fact, one MJ-12 document from the first >set had an altered letter from Marshall to Republican >presidential candidate Dewey concerning the Japanese "Magic" >code intercepts in 1944. The dates and and names had been >changed and the word Majic substituted for the word Magic. Sorry, but this is flat out wrong. The document ion question was NOT in the first set. This reflects the false claims in the CIA history article. I had pointed out that the "My Dear Carl Letter", supposedly from Marshall to Carl Humelsine was a take off on the famous letter from Marshall to Dewey. I had discussed this item with Dr. Larry Bland, sent him a copy and fully agreed with his conclusions as noted in TOP SECRET/MAJIC. There is, however,a second letter among the Tim Cooper documents that was supposedly from Hillenkoetter to Truman which was an emulation of a letter from Marshall to Roosevelt which I noted in Ron Lewin's book "The American Magic".. This contains the switch from Magic to Majic. Both are discussed in my MUFON 2000 paper. >You won't find any mention of this in the Woods' work. >Actually, the Woods go out of their way *not* to detect any >problems with the MJ-12 documents. As previously mentioned, the >style of the Marshall letters and messages are incorporated into >the MJ-12 documents. Although military Top Secret documents from >the 1947 era had Top Secret control numbers, TS documents during >World War II did not. One can view various TS documents with the >control numbers at the Project 1947 website: >http://www.project1947.com/ As I have pointed out in the past in response to similar charges from Ed Stewart, I had published several post-1947 genuine TS documents that did _not_ have TS control numbers in my "Final Report on Operation Majestic 12". I had also quoted from Marshall Archive and Ike Library archivists that often TS control numbers were NOT used on TS documents. There is a major difference between 20 copies of a 20 page article and 1 copy of a one page item from A to B. >This is the first hint. Cooper's first set of documents do not. >I expect any new documents from Cooper on MJ-12 will incorporate >them now. If you will notice, some documents in Cooper's first >set are addressed to the Director of Naval Intelligence. During >WW II, it was indeed the Director of Naval Intelligence. >However, about October 1945 the title changed to Chief of Naval >Intelligence. So the Cooper 1947 documents are wrong. Director >of Naval Intelligence again became the title about 1948. Two >years of research on the Wood's part did not detect this. Second >hint. Some titles are carried over long past their technical demise. I found War Department seals on items from the 1960s, for example. >"Eyes Only." Marshall had summaries of the most important Magic >intercepts distributed daily to various US officials, President, >Adm Leahy, etc. He had a list and only those officials were >allowed to see the papers. Additional many were mark "Eyes >Only." This is not a security classification, however. As many >of Marshall's message to Devers, Eisenhower, etc were marked Top >Secret, "Eyes only General Devers." Marshall and General Hap >Arnold exchanged letters about Arnold's health situation in >which Arnold would mark the letters for Marshall "secret (eyes >only)." >Where did the word "Majestic" come from? Well, I am not going to >tell, do your own research. It is more satisfying that way. >Now we have the Eisenhower Briefing document which has one >scenario and the Cooper MJ-12 documents that have another. Both >can't be right. Most haven't noticed the contradictions. Stan >Friedman and the Woods will be at the MUFON conference; so one >would expect sparks to fly, but in keeping with "not being >negative" no contradictions will be mentioned. I don't think we >will hear any comments at all about these two different >scenarios. Friedman and the Woods have indeed taken swipes at >each other. Friedman mentioned that some of Cooper's documents >were "parodies." of other documents. >The one thing the Woods have done, is brought to light that SOM >1-01 came from Kirtland AFB. What honest, upstanding, honorable >military man associated with Bill Moore also came from Kirtland? >Now someone recently posted a number of characteristics of MJ-12 >that his informant told him about. He missed one. Incredibly >stupid! As pointed out before, SOM 1-01, is completely silent >about overhead cover to prevent observation of any UFO recovery >from the air or from higher ground. Has no one heard of >camouflage nets? Something a pilot or any Army guy would be >familiar with: the necessity of overhead cover. But an OSI type >who has probably never seen a field exercise? If you were never >close to a field exercise you wouldn't think of that. Of course, >may be MJ-12 is incredibly stupid. They do leave manuals and >paperwork where it can easily be copied and transferred to >Cooper's mail box. >One ufologist told me he was relectant to write an expose of the >Cooper papers as it would just tell the hoaxers how to do it >better the next time. A valid concern, I believe. Actually, >looking at the latest crop of MJ-12 stuff, it is less convincing >than the former. However, I do believe that subsequent material >found in Cooper's mail box or more likely sent directly to the >Woods will be much better and will no longer reflect the sytle >of doucments found in the Marshall Papers. Since Cooper has a >wide range of FOIAs in right now, on diverse subjects, I expect >that the new MJ-12 documents will reveal a number of changes in >style and content. >The main things about the MJ-12 documents, we don't know where >they came from, and we can't find any link in the real world. I don't know who Deep Throat was either. It is the info that matters. The photographer of the EBD and TF items and the planter of the CT memo obviously were risking a great deal and violating the law. I recommend that people buy the MUFON Conference Proceedings as they will have papers from Bob Wood and myself. I certainly conclude that many of the newer documents are emulations and show the originals. Big hint. Check out "Wedemeyer Reports" by General Albert C. Wedemeyer, 1958, from your local library. Each document must be taken on its own merits... guilt by association is hardly science. Stan Friedman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Cecchini From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:37:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:10:38 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Cecchini >Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:45:24 -0400 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >Subject: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >The MJ-12 seems to be modeled after material from General >George Marshall's papers. <snip> >Actually, the Woods go out of their way *not* to detect any >problems with the MJ-12 documents. <snip> >This is the first hint. Cooper's first set of documents do not. >I expect any new documents from Cooper on MJ-12 will incorporate >them now. [...] Two years of research on the Wood's part did not >detect this. Second hint. >Now we have the Eisenhower Briefing document which has one >scenario and the Cooper MJ-12 documents that have another. >Both can't be right. Most haven't noticed the contradictions. <snip> >Friedman mentioned that some of Cooper's documents were >"parodies." of other documents. <snip> >looking at the latest crop of MJ-12 stuff, it is less convincing >than the former. However, I do believe that subsequent material >found in Cooper's mail box or more likely sent directly to the >Woods will be much better and will no longer reflect the sytle >of doucments found in the Marshall Papers. Since Cooper has a >wide range of FOIAs in right now, on diverse subjects, I expect >that the new MJ-12 documents will reveal a number of changes in >style and content. Even though my main interest in the UFO phenomenon is to determine the veracity of the Paranormal Hypothesis, after reading Cooper at the following site I have to admit that in the future I will find it nearly impossible to take seriously anything that has his name attached to it. Talk about bogarting ideas! I think Chris Carter should sue... (read the entire 5 pages to see what I mean) <snip> From Filer's Files #27 -- 2000: SUPPRESSION OF ET KNOWLEDGE AND THE TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE CONSPIRACY -- Tim Cooper writes, "Governments and religious authority have a long history of suppressing knowledge that conflicts with traditional beliefs regarding man's origin and contact with extraterrestrials." As with UFO/alien secrecy, the He brew Bible containing secrets of Jehovah (YHWH known by scholars as the Tetregrammaton, Greek, for the four letters for the name of God) were classified and held secret by tyrants, kings, princes, yes, even by whole empires, have striven to destroy these truly majestic documents. Please see: http://home.earthlink.net/~rcollins634/reports/tim_cooper_bible_ufos.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:34:13 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:13:02 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Hammond >>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 20:54:55 -0400 >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Re: Selling Files >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 20:25:05 -0400 >From: Peter Brookesmith, Duke of Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >With the Duke of Mendoza's compliments: ><snip> >Anonymity generates its own difficulties -- for example: how >does investigator B confirm, check, or burrow into the details >of investigator A's case if he can't contact the subject >directly, or if he doesn't have an identity around which to >investigate a background? I can think of ways around that, but >the end should always be to protect the privacy & dignity of the >subject. The means, however, call for a disinterested & >impartial attitude on the part of investigators, which means an >attitude imbued with honor and integrity. Dear Duke: The above is an interesting point and one I never really considered. Would we have researchers going door-to-door like FBI Agents doing a background check? The thought of this makes me, and I'm sure every abducted, shiver. I really don't want my 92 year old next door neighbor to think of me as a nut who thinks she sees Aliens! >I don't think the abduction phenomenon has any one cause or any >simple causes: What do you think the cause/causes might be? >but if you want to find out what is or has been >happening to you, I'd stick to medical professionals who (a) can >be held to account and (b), if you can find them, have some >imagination. (b) is important, because in my limited experience >"abductees" are absolutely not mad, bad or dangerous to know, >and "skeptics" and medics who take that line are helping no one >understand or explain anything. I have been fortunate in that I have been able to find people in the medical field who were very receptive. At least to the fact that I suffer from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. They formally had it as "Origin Unknown" which was very frustrating to try and treat. I finally decided to trust them and tell them what I beleive may have happened. A huge sigh of releif as they now at least had a starting point to begin treatments other than just medication. >Neither, by the way, do >"abductees" who claim there's only the choice between being >considered crazy and being accepted as abductees. But neither do >abductologists who sell or follow a party line. Besides, next >thing you know, they might even sell your files, uncensored. I couldn't agree with this statement more! Some abducts are as close minded in their own way as many of the most hard core sceptics. They will not even entertain the notion of trying to debate the issue. Or, at least, listen to the ideas of others. This is no doubt caused by what they have read, heard and seen of the most vitriolic skeptics. The loud-mouthed, close-minded, nasty and rude ones. Now, for many of us, all skeptics have been painted with the same brush. For myself, I welcome an open debate on this. It's possible to disagree on a subject and get you're point across while remaining a respectful lady or gentleman. Everyone would learn from a debate of this nature, I think. Well, you can see I'm pretty naive, but one can always hope, right? Yours, Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Stacy From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:43:38 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:16:08 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Stacy >Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:26:10 -0500 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:29:57 -0500 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>Subject: Re: Selling Files >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Dennis, >>As a certified elder of the field, your comments, >>recommendations, criticisms, observations, etc. re same would no >>doubt be welcome by many (unless you don't have any, of course). >A "certified elder," eh? You and Brookesmith, who more than >once has called me the "Boy Bishop of Canby," should get your >story straight. <snip> >Cheers, >Jerry Clark Jerry, You may be getting paranoid in your middle age. There is no joint story between Brookesmith and I to get straight. I stand behind my elder remark, although I probably should have said elder statesman. I think it safe to say that most people on this List are aware of the fact that you are the longtime editor of CUFOS's IUR journal and the author/editor of a landmark UFO encyclopedia. You embody a great deal of UFO history and knowledge, ergo, you are a certified elder in the field by definition. In other words, you've been at it more than most of us. No sarcasm or cynicism intended, and, for the record, I have never referred to you as the Boy Bishop of Canby, or anywhere else. On this thread and elsewhere in the past, you have complained (or at least pointed out) on more than one occasion that I have commented on subject A, without commenting equally fervently on subject B. That was my point and my only point, in regard to your own post. We know what you think about subject A. What is your considered opinion about subject B, which is a complicated one involving abductee rights, the practices of Bigelow, Carpenter, and others? This is not a trick question, and there are no wrong answers per se. At this point there are only strongly held opinions among many about what may or may not have been done, and what remedies, if any, should be pursued. If a comment re same can't be coaxed out of you, then so be it. Sincerely, Dennis Stacy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars - Fleming From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:49:23 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:18:10 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars - Fleming >Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:24:55 -0400 (EDT) >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars - Fleming >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Thanks for posting Vincent DiPietro's response. I based my >comment not on "ignorance" but on an appearance DiPietro made on >the Late Robert Barry's "ET Monitor" TV program. I distinctly >remember this show because I called in but my question was not >read. It was about the matter of a water spout being possible at >an atmospheric pressure of 9 millibars. Sorry you didn't get your question answered then. But I've answered it repeatedly here: the low atmospheric pressure of Mars is totally irrelevant. If anything, the greater differential between the pressure of any given subterranean water sources and lower surface pressure make eruptions of liquid water or vapor more likely, not less. >As I recall, there was >no discussion of this issue on the program, just pictures which >have been accepted by nearly everyone else as dust devils and >their picture of one which looks different than the others >shown. References, please? I'm unaware of a Gallup poll that has reported that result. >Shadows can appear different when projected on different >slopes and terrain. The shadow in the Viking image is projected on a flat surface, not on complicated and rugged terrain, so there's no reason to believe that there are tricks of light & shadow involved. >I concluded at the time, and still believe, that since they >presented no evidence other than the shape of this one shadow >for their hypothesis that this was water not dust, that they >probably wouldn't know how to tell the difference, anyway. So you concluded that because they didn't present any evidence besides the evidence they presented, that they didn't know the difference? Incredible. I see no indication that you know the difference between a water eruption and a dust devil, at least not enough to suggest any distinguishing characteristics. By the way, I've looked at all the dust devil images on the MSSS web site, and the shadows of all of them do look different from the Viking image. Every one of them appears columnar; none taper to a point. >>Of course, I don't expect to see any apology from the individual >>who tossed out the gratuitous and ignorant insult. Such >>individuals seldom apologize for anything. But I thought >>DiPietro's response should be stated for the record. >Sorry. That was my opinion after watching his presentation on >TV, and that's still my opinion now. Of course, I could be >wrong. I see my expectations have been met. No big surprise there. >Why, Vince DiPietro actually wants Kenneth Starr to >investigate the Mars pictures and NASA. Now _that's_ the way to >conduct real scientific research. No, it's a way to conduct a criminal investigation.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Cashman From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@temporaldoorway.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 20:51:57 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:19:14 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Cashman >Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 21:34:35 -0700 (PDT) >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >I've never seen this one before either, so I'm thinking it's an >"artist's reconstruction." As far as reconstructions go, it's >not bad; I don't see any liberties being taken with Arnold's >original descriptions. >All in all, it behooves us to again see that Arnold never >claimed to have seen disk-shaped UFOs. These sketches bear no relationship to the first on record by Arnold, in the Blue Book files, which do indeed look largely disk shaped. I'm not sure how you can make such a statement if you are familiar with the historical record. ------ Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at http://www.temporaldoorway.com - Original digital art, writing, music and UFO research - UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more... http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/index.htm ------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published - Fleming From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:12:09 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:20:46 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published - Fleming >Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:24:00 -0400 (EDT) >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net> >>Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 21:27:32 -0600 >>Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 08:41:30 -0400 >>Subject: UpDate: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published in Science >Mag ><snip> >>Malin really did claim that Mars' atmospheric pressure was >>usually below the triple point of water -- in the very >>first sentence of thearticle, which is: >>"Present-day Mars is a desert world on which liquid water is not >>likely to be found at the surface, because average temperatures >>are below 273 K and atmospheric pressures are at or below >>water's triple-point vapor pressure of 6.1 mbar." >>The pressures measured by the Viking and Pathfinder landers in >>fact seldom if ever fell below the triple-point. Malin's >>statement is just plain wrong. >Lan, List: >Malin wrote about "average" temperatures and pressures. This >presumably includes nighttime, polar and winter hemisphere >sites. The Viking and Pathfinder landers were, I believe, not at >polar sites. No one in the English-speaking world would parse the sentence that way. It's two independent and complete sentences joined by a conjunction to stress that the "average" temperatures and the atmospheric pressures -- without any qualification --are factors that both make liquid water on the surface of Mars unlikely, according to Dr. Malin. Even if this is just an incredibly sloppy sentence construction for a technical writer, and he meant the average pressure, it is still highly misleading. The average pressures over most of the northern hemisphere of Mars and the Hellas basin in the southern hemisphere are well above the triple point of water. Parsing the sentence the way you want it to read, it would still mean the remarkable fact that there are vast areas of Mars where the atmospheric pressure permits liquid water, and therefore the possibility of life, has been covered up with a statistical sleight of hand. By this logic, we shouldn't need police departments, since the average citizen is law-abiding. The _minimum_ pressures measured at both Viking lander sites and the Pathfinder site never fell below the triple point. See http://humbabe.arc.nasa.gov/mcc/windsm_gif.html for isobar maps of the entire planet for all seasons. I've looked at the seasonal charts, and I think it's debatable whether even the average pressure for the entire planet over the course of a martian year ever falls below the triple-point.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 Silliness - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:19:26 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:22:46 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 Silliness - Gates >Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 13:07:48 +0100 >From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 Silliness >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >According to my findings, the word "back channel" which is >written on the photographs, was used before WWII by the >intelligence agencies. Apparently it was an undercover term >used to describe people they used as a link to the main source. >For instance, I'm told they use this in times of war, so that >leaders can interact via that party. It stands to reason >that Beria would act as a go between, especially as he was >Stalin's right hand man. >Now who would be America's back channel? Well, the head of the >American bomb project was said (according to Beria's son) to >have stayed at Beria's house,where he shared America's bomb >secrets with Beria! Another so called back channel, ala famous way after the fact, was during the Nixon admin when Henry Kissinger had public SALT and other negotiations going on, then had rather private back channel negotiations going on through Anatoly Dobrinyan? Anyways most all administrations have had back channels into other governments.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 11 UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Easton From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 04:23:18 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:24:30 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Easton Regarding: >Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:45:08 +0100 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 22:48:15 +0100 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >>Subject: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? >>To: UFO UpDates <updates@sympatico.ca> Roy wrote: >Is the Arnold Case for ever on going in the hearts and minds of >Investigators around the world? Roy, One of the reasons it has been a feature of late - although rarely on UFO UpDates - is that the case has in fact seldom been the subject of a detailed analysis. I have expressed elsewhere my regret - I know shared by others - that so many central questions which have come to light were never asked of Kenneth Arnold when he was alive. I'm sure he could have clarified most of them quite easily. Unfortunately, we're left with only a few accounts, although richly detailed. When analysed, these do contain a number of significant contradictions and anomalies. However, as I've said before, that is perhaps only to be expected and especially over time. One crucial factor in understanding the probabilities and which, if we'd known the answer, might instantly have ruled out a formation of birds as a conceivable explanation, is exactly how Arnold flew in relation to the nine objects. We know he mentioned both turning his plane "around" and "sideways" during the brief observation, yet we have no idea exactly what he meant - how long did this take, what direction was he heading afterwards, etc. When Arnold was still with us, his answer to this simple question could have explained it all. And if it could have been pointed out that Little Tahoma was the only 'jagged peak' which seemed to match the distance marker he referred to, yet was on the other side of Mt. Rainier, then maybe he could have rationalised this and other anomalies also. Why have so many issues only come up in the past couple of years? Primarily because the Internet has revolutionised research capabilities - 'armchair research' personified. ;) Don't knock it, because without the Internet we would all understand 'the UFO phenomenon' immeasurably less than we do. Which is a truly frightening thought. If the most significant UFO account ever, and the foundation for _almost everything_ related which followed, isn't worth spending some time looking into, then what is by comparison? Especially, if that research leads to a new appreciation of the evidence. I think you might find that some UFO historians who know the case intimately and consider the Arnold sighting to be an encounter which can't be explained by contemporary, known technology, will agree. Should the relatively meagre discussions on UFO UpDates bother you, then be exceedingly grateful you're not a subscriber to the UFO Research List! >Does there ever come a time when we say, I think we have reached >a conclusive full and final report into the Arnold Case? It's not possible, Roy. As I purposely noted in the 'Fortean Times' article and is highlighted by an extracted, 'emphasised quote' in the actual publication, "Only Kenneth Arnold really understood what he witnessed". That's the proverbial bottom line. This isn't 'sceptic central'. Well, not yet, anyway. Ufology per se should have no fears about investigating and determining the likely explanation for any UFO report. As Bob Rickard comments in the Magazine's editorial, and which is also the essence of any contributions I have ever made, if ufology was to face up to some blatant realities, then perhaps it might all make more sense than it does. >I would like to ask James directly what is it he thinks that >Arnold saw over Mt. Rainer? Although it's obviously of zero consequence what I might think, it looks like we can reason: >2: Military vehicles of some kind. Not evidently sustainable >4: Natural Phenomena. No way. >5: Meteorological Phenomena. Unless Kenneth Arnold was somewhat deranged and depicted meteors as 'bat-like', or 'crescent-shaped' and which exhibited undulating flight, then, no. >6: An illusion due to Aviation sickness. Obviously not. >1. Intelligent controlled Extraterrestrial vehicles. Why would we ever conclude that? Especially as it's evident there are intrinsic anomalies with Arnold's perception of distance and consequently airspeed. Nine alien spacecraft - surely that's simply a preposterous, unscientific, conclusion. >3: Wildlife. Given that here were nine objects flying in an undulating, characteristically, bird-like formation and that some of Arnold's illustrations are so similar to birds, and acknowledging the established predicament with Arnold's perception about distance and consequently speed, this could be a possibility. James Easton. E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk www.ufoworld.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 12 UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... Easton From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 05:06:57 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 02:15:09 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... Easton Regarding: >Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:05:51 -0700 >From: J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> >Subject: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Royce wrote: >>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:45:24 -0400 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >>Subject: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>The main things about the MJ-12 documents, we don't know where >>they came from, and we can't find any link in the real world. >>Jan Aldrich. >This is a point I brought up some time ago regarding MJ-12 and >other so-called UFO/Government documents. Not one of these bozos >involved in researching these documents has any knowledge as to >their origin. This is a mistake made time and time again in this >field, from phoney alien autopsy footage to bogus UFO documents. Royce, It's a trivial pursuit, I know... but to the, _blatant_ , MJ-12 hoax perpetrator and all those who, related, or otherwise... it's a long list... perpetually enjoy taking the piss out of ufology, perhaps we might respond with an alternative, heartfelt riddle. Two words. Four letters and three. Sounds like 'cough'. James Easton. E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk www.ufoworld.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 12 UpDate: Re: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars - Young From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 00:16:53 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 02:17:59 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars - Young >From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net> >Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:49:23 -0600 >Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:18:10 -0400 >Subject: UpDate: Re: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars - Fleming >>Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:24:55 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars - Fleming >>To: updates@sympatico.ca <snip> >If anything, the greater differential between the >pressure of any given subterranean water sources and >lower surface pressure make eruptions of liquid water >or vapor more likely, not less. OK, I get it. I hadn't thought of that. >>As I recall, there was >>no discussion of this issue on the program, just pictures which >>have been accepted by nearly everyone else as dust devils and >>their picture of one which looks different than the others >>shown. >References, please? I'm unaware of a Gallup poll that has >reported that result. I was referring to planetary scientists who have studied the pixs. >>Shadows can appear different when projected on different >>slopes and terrain. >The shadow in the Viking image is projected on a flat surface, >not on complicated and rugged terrain, so there's no reason to >believe that there are tricks of light & shadow involved. And there is no slope? Do you know what the coordinates are for the pix? <snip> >So you concluded that because they didn't present any evidence >besides the evidence they presented, that they didn't know the >difference? Incredible. No, not incredible, just obvious. I watched the TV program, you did not. Are you suggesting that any viewpoint different than yours can only be incredible? >I see no indication that you know the difference between a water >eruption and a dust devil. Do you expect anybody to take this seriously? >>Why, Vince DiPietro actually wants Kenneth Starr to >>investigate the Mars pictures and NASA. Now _that's_ the way to >>conduct real scientific research. >No, it's a way to conduct a criminal investigation. You did mean a political investigation, didn't you? Clear skies, Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 12 UpDate: Re: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars - Young From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 01:15:39 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 02:23:17 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars - Young >From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net> >Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:49:23 -0600 >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Subject: UpDate: Re: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars >>Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:24:55 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars - Fleming <snip> >>Why, Vince DiPietro actually wants Kenneth Starr to >>investigate the Mars pictures and NASA. Now _that's_ the way to >>conduct real scientific research. >No, it's a way to conduct a criminal investigation. Lan, List: So, this is what we've got: on the one hand many planetary scientists who think that the pix shows a dust devil, and a couple who think that it is a water spout. You propose launching a criminal investigation of these scientists and NASA because they don't subescribe to your theory of Martian geysers? I want to point out that this is _not_ science. It fits, in fact, the very definition of McCarthyism. I suppose that you have your List of 100 Unbelievers in NASA and academia? I remember watching The Hearings on TV back when I was a kid, and I can imagine it now: "Are you now or have you ever been a card-carrying member of the ET Doubters? Answer the question, Dr. Malin." Skeptic Young, of course, is a known Fellow Traveller. Clear skies, Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 12 UpDate: Re: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published - From: John Winterflood <jwinter@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:18:18 +0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:38:25 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published - >From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net> >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 21:27:32 -0600 >Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 08:41:30 -0400 >Subject: UpDate: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published in >Science Mag ><snip> >Malin really did claim that Mars' atmospheric pressure was >usually below the triple point of water -- in the very >first sentence of thearticle, which is: >"Present-day Mars is a desert world on which liquid water is not >likely to be found at the surface, because average temperatures >are below 273 K and atmospheric pressures are at or below >water's triple-point vapor pressure of 6.1 mbar." >The pressures measured by the Viking and Pathfinder landers in >fact seldom if ever fell below the triple-point. Malin's >statement is just plain wrong. It is important to remember that the pressure to be used for the triple-point is the _partial_ vapour pressure of the water component of the atmosphere. The atmosphere on Mars is ~95% carbon dioxide, so if the _total_ atmospheric pressure according to Malin is "at or below .... 6.1 mbar" then the partial pressure contributed by the very small and variable water vapour content is going to be well and truly below the 6.1 mbar triple-point requirement. With this understanding Malin's statement seems correct and reasonable. See http://www.uapress.arizona.edu/online.bks/mars/chap13.htm for atmospheric composition and see note in http://www.uapress.arizona.edu/online.bks/mars/chap12.htm on triple-point:- "On Mars, of course, there is no true "sea level"; instead, the reference datum is defined as the level at which the partial carbon dioxide pressure is 6.1 millibars, which marks the triple point of water. For partial pressures of water greater than 6.1 millibars, liquid water can exist under some temperature conditions; for partial pressures lower than this, it is always unstable."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 12 UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Friedman From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 08:43:39 -0300 Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:42:05 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Friedman >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 05:06:57 +0100 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... Easton >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Regarding: >>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:05:51 -0700 >>From: J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> >>Subject: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Royce wrote: >>>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:45:24 -0400 >>>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >>>Subject: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>The main things about the MJ-12 documents, we don't know where >>>they came from, and we can't find any link in the real world. >>>Jan Aldrich. >>This is a point I brought up some time ago regarding MJ-12 and >>other so-called UFO/Government documents. Not one of these bozos >>involved in researching these documents has any knowledge as to >>their origin. This is a mistake made time and time again in this >>field, from phoney alien autopsy footage to bogus UFO documents. >Royce, >It's a trivial pursuit, I know... but to the, _blatant_ , MJ-12 >hoax perpetrator and all those who, related, or otherwise... >it's a long list... perpetually enjoy taking the piss out of >ufology, perhaps we might respond with an alternative, heartfelt >riddle. >Two words. Four letters and three. >Sounds like 'cough'. Come on guys, how about doing something other than proclamations about the many different MJ-12 documents from several different sources received in several locations by different people? As I shall point out in my MUFON paper Saturday, the EBE,TF, CT memos do stand up to research investigation. Many of the newer ones received by Tim Cooper do not. It is, I have been told, standard practice when good stuff gets out to flood the market with junk so that people unwilling to do the research will believe that the first stuff was junk as well. Stan Friedman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 12 UpDate: Nightly Rocket-Launch Captured? From: Werner Walter <113236.1604@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 08:12:27 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:44:22 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Nightly Rocket-Launch Captured? Hi Listmembers, Has anyone on this list makes a visit on the Cape or in Vandenberg and has filmed or photographed a nightly and/or pre-dawn rocket-launch in full length of visibility on the locations? I urgently want to get such video recording or slides about an event like this. Can anyone help me? Greetings, Werner Walter from Germany cenap@alien.de
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 12 UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:41:20 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:59:19 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Maccabee >Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:45:08 +0100 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> There have been published more than a dozen explanations for the Arnold sighting. Therefore it _must_ have been explained... right? The most recent are geese by Kottmeyer, pelicans by Easton and meteors by Klass. Now, surely, _one_ of these explanations must be convincing! _Not_!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 12 UpDate: Video Publishing From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:46:41 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:04:42 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Video Publishing Dear Colleagues, Below is a message from Duncan Smith of DS Media in the UK. As you can see he is interested in putting together a number of video projects. I spoke with Duncan this morning and he seems to know his stuff. If you've therefore got some ideas that you'd like to see end up on video, why not contact him at the e-mail address below. All the best, Philip. ----- Duncan Smith <contact@dsmediapro.co.uk> Video Publishing I am not a member of this List but I am very interested in the subjects discussed in the postings. I run a video production company in the UK and am interested in producing videos on various subjects including those of this List. This is a genuine interest request and I do intend to become an active member of the group following my own research interests and my personal experiences. If you are interested in the possibility of publishing videos on your area of expertise and interest please email me and I'll send more details. Please include the name of this List in your reply. Thanks, Duncan Smith D S MEDIA contact@dsmediapro.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 12 UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Hale From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:10:24 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:07:49 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Hale >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 04:23:18 +0100 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >3: Wildlife. >Given that here were nine objects flying in an undulating, >characteristically, bird-like formation and that some of >Arnold's illustrations are so similar to birds, and >acknowledging the established predicament with Arnold's >perception about distance and consequently speed, this could be >a possibility. Hi James, This is all I wanted to hear, you think he saw a flock of Pelicans, Geese or something of the variety. So obviously none of the investigations into this case have persuaded you otherwise? Just for the record James, do you know of other sightings that have occurred over time, which resemble the same flight characteristics, shape, colour etc. of the Arnold sighting, which could be labelled as wildlife , in or near the area of Mt Rainer since this sighting? What wildlife have breeding spots near Mt. Rainer? What checks with wildlife specialists have you made to confirm your thinking? Roy..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 12 UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Salvaille From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:41:25 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:09:49 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Salvaille >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 08:43:39 -0300 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >Subject: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 05:06:57 +0100 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... Easton >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Come on guys, how about doing something other than >proclamations about the many different MJ-12 documents from >several different sources received in several locations by >different people? >As I shall point out in my MUFON paper Saturday, the EBE,TF, CT >memos do stand up to research investigation. Many of the newer >ones received by Tim Cooper do not. It is, I have been told, >standard practice when good stuff gets out to flood the market >with junk so that people unwilling to do the research will >believe that the first stuff was junk as well. <snip> Hello Stan, James and List, A couple of years ago I read a book about the history of British Secret Services. One chapter dealt with ex-employees who had become popular authors and wrote espionage novels. What made the Brits crazy was one author (can't recall the guy) who, for the sake of not revealing a word about the reality of the British Secret Services, had written a novel where everything was false. John Le Carr really pleased his ex-employers: half of what he wrote was true, half was false. The best way to hide the truth is always among lies. Serge
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 12 UpDate: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:47:52 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:16:42 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? This may be of interest: Source: WorldNetDaily http://www.worldnetdaily.com/ Wednesday, July 12, 2000 Little green men or the Air Force? by Charles Smith The Freedom of Information Act is wonderful when it comes to unexplained reports of extraterrestrial visits. The Federation of American Scientists, a Washington-based science advocacy group, recently discovered through the Freedom of Information Act that reports of UFO activity also corresponded with the flights of top- secret American spy aircraft. In the 1960s, the Central Intelligence Agency and the U.S. Air Force worked very hard to generate UFO cover stories for secret aircraft. The result was a hysterical joke on the world that echoes through to this day. Keep in mind; this was during the height of the Cold War when the USA and USSR were on the verge of nuclear combat. The aircraft involved were certainly alien with their incredible performance. The silver long-winged U-2 aircraft could fly 14 miles high and stay aloft for hours, while the blackened, delta-shaped SR-71 could fly even higher at speeds exceeding 2,000 miles an hour. Flying a UFO can also be hazardous to your health. Brave U-2 and SR- 71 crews flew mission after mission over Russia, China, Cuba, Israel, Germany, Korea, Vietnam and other hot global spots. Most came home safe. Some lost their lives. Many veterans still suffer today from the long-term effects of space flight in the early, unshielded aircraft. Today, the SR-71 Blackbird has been retired, relegated to the history books and removed from active service. The highflying U-2 lives on in an improved version called the TR-1. Yet, there are rumors of even more exotic vehicles that still await the first public viewing. The stories of UFOs and UFO-like performance continue to persist, along with missing billions in the world of black projects. The first rumors of a follow-on aircraft to the Blackbird came at the end of the Cold War. Reports of a highflying aircraft using the call sign "Stove-pipe" became the now-legendary "Aurora" project. Although, never publicly confirmed to exist, Aurora has been sighted and photographed escorting U.S. strike aircraft. The large diamond shaped aircraft is reported to be capable of exceeding 8,000 miles an hour and was originally designed to attack Moscow with nuclear bombs. Aurora's extreme performance does not come cheap. Aurora is also reported to be more expensive than a Space Shuttle. Some of the experimental U.S. aircraft tested during the Cold War obtained their performance using propulsion systems driven with volatile and dangerous fuels. One secret U.S. project included an atomic ramjet. The deadly engine, a radioactive ramjet, heated air in the radioactive core of a miniature atomic reactor. The atomic jet engine was developed to fly a giant missile carrying a multi-megaton thermonuclear bomb deep into the Soviet Union. The atomic ramjet was never deployed but U.S. nuclear engineers did successfully test the lethal radioactive engine in the open desert air before the project was finally canceled. How about an invisible airplane? Stealth aircraft such as the B-2 and the F-117A are not new. It is well known that the B-2 and F-117A are practically invisible to radar but the aircraft themselves can be seen. One reported robot plane project was also nearly invisible to the naked eye in broad daylight. Ironically, the concept is not new. In the 1940s, the U.S. Navy developed operation "Yahootie" the first practical attempt to create an invisible aircraft. U.S. Navy bombers were considered too slow to visually spot a German U-boat cruising on the surface and attack in daylight. Submarine commanders often spotted the lumbering bombers and dove safely away before the planes could attack. In response, a string of bright lights were arrayed on the wings and propeller hubs of the sub-hunter planes. The bomber crews adjusted the lights to match the natural background light behind the aircraft, masking itself against the sky. The so-called "isoluminous" principle is based upon the perception that different objects displaying the same brightness seem indistinguishable from each other. The principle worked very well until 1942, when the Navy introduced airborne radar, allowing bombers to spot and kill submarines beyond visual ranges. Yahootie returns? An advanced version of Yahootie, a robot driven surveillance aircraft is reported to use a combination of lights, low noise engines, and radar absorbing skin to render itself practically invisible in daylight. The robot aircraft is not only invisible to radar but its skin is layered with an array of high intensity lights that broadcast the same output as the sky around it. Still, what good is an invisible flying saucer without a ray gun? The USAF is already working on the ABL or "Airborne Laser" project. The concept is simple; mate a Boeing 747 with the most powerful laser the huge airliner can carry. The result, according to the Air Force, is a plane that can knock down hostile ballistic missiles from hundreds of miles away. The ABL project is well under way toward an early test and looks very promising. So promising that, according to Aviation Week and Space Technology, the Russians have demanded they be allowed to fly on- board any active ABL 747 to make sure it does not target Russian missiles, in violation of the SALT treaties. Russia has also been working for many years on laser projects. The Defense Intelligence Agency recently made public drawings of Russian anti-satellite and anti-missile laser systems in test. However, it appears the U.S. Air Force is not too worried about the Russians. Instead, the Air Force is keeping a budgetary laser eye focused on the U.S. Marine Corps. The U.S. Marines, ever quick to catch on, have proposed arming the new Joint Strike Fighter with a laser weapon. The Air Force views the Marine concept as a threat to the ABL budget. It would seem that the only hostile actions between blue and green are not extraterrestrials doing battle for control of the earth, but military officers inside the Pentagon fighting over budget figures. We know more about Mars than the black accounts inside the Pentagon books. I am here to assure you there are no UFOs; it's all a Hollywood fantasy and a CIA conspiracy. So, The next time you see a UFO, don't look up; it's one of ours. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To read more articles like this one, visit http://www.worldnetdaily.com/ -- John Rimmer Magonia Magazine www.magonia.demon.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 12 UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Myers From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:20:34 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:51:25 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Myers >Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:37:04 -0400 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> >Subject: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:45:24 -0400 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >>Subject: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >From Filer's Files #27 -- 2000: >SUPPRESSION OF ET KNOWLEDGE AND THE TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE >CONSPIRACY -- Tim Cooper writes, "Governments and religious >authority have a long history of suppressing knowledge that >conflicts with traditional beliefs regarding man's origin and >contact with extraterrestrials." SUPPRESSION OF FACTS AND UFO CONSPIRACY: Many so-called UFOlogists have a long history of suppressing knowledge and facts that conflict with their pocket books, their agendas, their theories about the UFO phenomenon and/or their ego. Why someone in the governemnt would actually leak highly classified documents, that would affect every single aspect of life on this planet, to a security guard is beyond me. Amazing what you can do at Kinko's these days... Regards, Royce J. Myers III eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy - "Don't Trip On Your Open Mind...or your stacks of bogus MJ-12 documents..... eXpos News http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3 UFO Hall o' Shame http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 12 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:38:30 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:55:07 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Mortellaro >Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:34:13 -0400 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Re: Selling Files - >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 20:54:55 -0400 >>>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>>Subject: Re: Selling Files >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 20:25:05 -0400 >>From: Peter Brookesmith, Duke of Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Selling Files >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>With the Duke of Mendoza's compliments: >><snip> >>Anonymity generates its own difficulties -- for example: how >>does investigator B confirm, check, or burrow into the details >>of investigator A's case if he can't contact the subject >>directly, or if he doesn't have an identity around which to >>investigate a background? I can think of ways around that, but >>the end should always be to protect the privacy & dignity of the >>subject. The means, however, call for a disinterested & >>impartial attitude on the part of investigators, which means an >>attitude imbued with honor and integrity. >The above is an interesting point and one I never really >considered. Would we have researchers going door-to-door like >FBI Agents doing a background check? The thought of this makes >me, and I'm sure every abducted, shiver. I really don't want my >92 year old next door neighbor to think of me as a nut who >thinks she sees Aliens! >>I don't think the abduction phenomenon has any one cause or any >>simple causes: >What do you think the cause/causes might be? >>but if you want to find out what is or has been >>happening to you, I'd stick to medical professionals who (a) can >>be held to account and (b), if you can find them, have some >>imagination. (b) is important, because in my limited experience >>"abductees" are absolutely not mad, bad or dangerous to know, >>and "skeptics" and medics who take that line are helping no one >>understand or explain anything. >I have been fortunate in that I have been able to find people in >the medical field who were very receptive. At least to the fact >that I suffer from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. They formally >had it as "Origin Unknown" which was very frustrating to try and >treat. I finally decided to trust them and tell them what I >beleive may have happened. A huge sigh of releif as they now at >least had a starting point to begin treatments other than just >medication. >>Neither, by the way, do >>"abductees" who claim there's only the choice between being >>considered crazy and being accepted as abductees. But neither do >>abductologists who sell or follow a party line. Besides, next >>thing you know, they might even sell your files, uncensored. >I couldn't agree with this statement more! Some abducts are as >close minded in their own way as many of the most hard core >sceptics. They will not even entertain the notion of trying to >debate the issue. Or, at least, listen to the ideas of others. >This is no doubt caused by what they have read, heard and seen >of the most vitriolic skeptics. The loud-mouthed, close-minded, >nasty and rude ones. Now, for many of us, all skeptics have been >painted with the same brush. >For myself, I welcome an open debate on this. It's possible to >disagree on a subject and get you're point across while >remaining a respectful lady or gentleman. Everyone would learn >from a debate of this nature, I think. Well, you can see I'm >pretty naive, but one can always hope, right? Please Liz, and Duke Leto, EBK and everyone, Forgive my intrusion, but a thing needs to be said based on your last statements, Liz. I like to think that I have an open mind when it comes to a debate on these issues. I must confess that I really do, until someone comes along to burst the bubo on my butt and come out with inflammatory and basically opinionated horse manure. Then, I tend to go ballistic and point. Of course, at the time I am doing this, my mind (which is to say my emotions) are telling me how righteous I am. After all, I am the one (and so are you and many, many others) with the memories. How may anyone belittle memory such as we have? I mean, it's either real or it is imagined but when the memory is not just _so_ real, it is actually _real_, it cannot be refuted. Not in our minds at least. You just spilled hot coffee on the front of your back. Hey, if yous is a guy, yous is gonna do a good deal of screaming. And like the memory of the pain of such an event, or the pain of a kidney stone or whatever, it stays in your mind as being the most real thing in your life. Then someone comes along and attempts to refute your memory. When there is no other proof of mental illness, organic or otherwise, when there is no proof of any illness other than PTSD or immune system diseases which occur as a result of insult to one's system from the environment, then there is very little reason if any, to disbelieve the claimant. What one does disbelieve is the insult to one's paradigm. However, when venom, bile, inflammatory accusations and just plain ornery mean spirited individuals begin to make their respective animal noises, one must draw a line in the sand. And when we fight amongst ourselves, we all lose, eh? So perhaps we should all make a pact. Together we stand. So stand already. But when the Beast Rabban comes to steal our spice, let's all band together even more closely. I realize that there are those among us who cannot reveal their true identity for good reasons. I volunteer to be the idiot wind and represent those who have something to say, but do not wish to reveal what they have to say. You see, I have no fear. I owe nothing to anyone. I own everything I have, and I really do not need the income. (I want it, but don't need it). So let 'er rip. Got something to say? Feel free to say it to me. I shall do my best to get the word out on your behalf. Too many of you on this list do little or no posting. For one thing many of us are sensitive souls and do not wish to be belittled in public. Or in private. First, there is no reason for it and second, when it occurs, we feel defeated and withdraw. This will not help our cause. We all need to be a voice which is united and loud. Thus far, only the unrighteous have their voice levels on high. I would like to change that. And change it you can. We should respond to anyone who chooses to demean and belittle us. I will therefore set up an e-mail address specifically for those of us who wish to say something but remain anonymous. I shall post it on our behalf, if accepted. The address is: DocGripple@AOL.COM. Feel free to send me your thoughts. Best personal regards, Jim ... gay blade abductee according to some. Macho and good looking dude to me and mine. I am the spitting image of Julio, the singer. Just wait till you hear me sing La Paloma on RealAudio.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 12 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Rudiak From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:13:15 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:59:29 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Rudiak >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 03:39:17 +0100 >Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 00:02:16 -0400 >Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Easton >It's not incumbent on myself or anyone who has an interest in >the question of life elsewhere in the Universe and whether it >might have reached here, that we subscribe to the accepted >standards which degrade ufology. >And what exactly is 'ufology' in the new millennium? >A cursory exploration, as currently proclaimed by some of its >foremost voices should tell us: <snip> >Ultimately, for many ufologists - alright, maybe just a few - >it's beyond despair and evidently beyond reconciliation. >Ufology's status as a scientific leper is hard earned and >jealously guarded. >Still, that's been recognised for a long time by many >ufologists. <snip> >The resolution... I predict that the 'evidence' promoted by >mainstream UFO media sources will become increasingly untenable; >there will, in the near future, be a necessary and long overdue >'realignment'... >As you may know, the newly published, August issue of 'Fortean >Times', features on the front cover [is that Nick Pope?] and a >centrepiece, six page article, my research into the pivotal >Kenneth Arnold case - see: >http://www.forteantimes.com/ Right on James! Ufology is full of bozos asserting all sorts of rubbish as if it were gospel truth. Good thing there are clear-headed, scientifically-minded Ufologists like yourself to set us all straight. Otherwise the degradation of Ufology would be even worse that it is now. Just to add to your litany of current foolishness in Ufology, there's some guy over in the UK who is still pushing a completely discredited theory that a bunch of pelicans can explain the Kenneth Arnold sighting. Can you imagine? Pelicans of all things! Check out his latest efforts to promote this nonsense in a centrepiece, six page article in the newly published, August issue of 'Fortean Times' -- see: http://www.forteantimes.com/ Wait a second ....... David Rudiak
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 12 UpDate: Re: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published - Fleming From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:21:41 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:22:31 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published - Fleming >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:18:18 +0800 >From: John Winterflood <jwinter@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> >Subject: Re: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net> >>Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 21:27:32 -0600 >>Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 08:41:30 -0400 >>Subject: UpDate: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published in >>Science Mag >><snip> >>Malin really did claim that Mars' atmospheric pressure was >>usually below the triple point of water -- in the very >>first sentence of thearticle, which is: >>"Present-day Mars is a desert world on which liquid water is not >>likely to be found at the surface, because average temperatures >>are below 273 K and atmospheric pressures are at or below >>water's triple-point vapor pressure of 6.1 mbar." >>The pressures measured by the Viking and Pathfinder landers in >>fact seldom if ever fell below the triple-point. Malin's >>statement is just plain wrong. >It is important to remember that the pressure to be used for the >triple-point is the _partial_ vapour pressure of the water >component of the atmosphere. The atmosphere on Mars is ~95% >carbon dioxide, so if the _total_ atmospheric pressure according >to Malin is "at or below .... 6.1 mbar" then the partial >pressure contributed by the very small and variable water vapour >content is going to be well and truly below the 6.1 mbar >triple-point requirement. With this understanding Malin's >statement seems correct and reasonable. It is neither correct nor reasonable. What determines the boiling point temperature of water is the _total_ atmospheric pressure, not the partial pressure. Consider that the water content of the Earth's atmosphere ranges from 0.1% to 3% by volume, which translates roughly into a range of H2O partial pressures of 0.001 atmoshperes to .03 atm, or 1 mb to 30 mb. This is according to _The Planetary System_ by Morrison and Owen, 1988. If you consult a phase diagram for water like the one at: http://www.sou.edu/chem/ch202/ch11/h2ophase.htm you find that at the lower end of that range, the corresponding temperature on the vapor/liquid transition line is about 30 degrees C, or 86 degrees Fahrenheit. Since the human body temperature is 98.6F, your blood would boil in arid locales if it were true that partial pressure determined the boiling point. Fortunately, the partial pressure has nothing to do with it. What the partial pressure does determine is whether surface evaporation from a body of liquid water can occur -- as it commonly does on Earth. (When water boils, the gas bubbles appear throughout the body of liquid water, not just at the surface). If the partial pressure of water vapor is at the vapor/liquid transition value for a given temperature, then the air is saturated with water and no further evaporation can occur.Oddly enough, the Martian atmosphere is so cold that it cannot hold much water -- it's nearly saturated, according to Morrison & Owen. Again, this can be verified by checking the phase diagram for water: at -35 C (the lowest temperature on this particular charg), the transition pressure is nearly zero. >See: >http://www.uapress.arizona.edu/online.bks/mars/chap13.htm >for atmospheric composition and see note in >http://www.uapress.arizona.edu/online.bks/mars/chap12.htm >on triple-point:- >"On Mars, of course, there is no true "sea level"; instead, the >reference datum is defined as the level at which the partial >carbon dioxide pressure is 6.1 millibars, which marks the triple >point of water. For partial pressures of water greater than 6.1 >millibars, liquid water can exist under some temperature >conditions; for partial pressures lower than this, it is always >unstable." I'm surprised to see this on a dot edu page; it's not correct.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 12 UpDate: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - Beasley From: Craig Beasley <craig_beasley@usa.net> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:44:38 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:25:15 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - Beasley Good Day List, I just _had_ to respond to this. >Little green men or the Air Force? >by Charles Smith <snip> >In the 1960s, the Central Intelligence Agency and the U.S. Air >Force worked very hard to generate UFO cover stories for secret >aircraft. The result was a hysterical joke on the world that >echoes through to this day. Of course, there were no reported sightings of UFOs before the 1960's? >Many veterans >still suffer today from the long-term effects of space flight in >the early, unshielded aircraft. What is Mr. Smith saying here, that space travelers are exposed to radically higher levels of radiation than folks on earth? Yes, the environment is more radioactive up there, but not to that much of degree that people visting space have any real long-term effects. There is the Van Allen Belt system that has a life-threatening level of radiation, but it is beyond the orbiting or ballistic paths of any of the types of vehicles he's referring to. The only human beings to pass through the Van Allen system were the Apollo astronauts, and they went as fast as they could to get through precisely because of the dangerous factors there. In the flight regions we're discussing here, the main source of damaging radiation is the rain of cosmic rays that filter throughout space. It is actually a very diffuse rain at that, and doesn't contribute greatly to the deterioration of a space traveller's health. Plus (and here's the kicker) there are no known shielding techniques that can stop a cosmic ray from going where it wants to go. Period. So, the point I'm trying to make is that I don't know who the writer of this piece has been talking to, but there is no special shielding for spacecraft or high-flying aircraft, beyond the regular old materials that have always been used to build lower altitude aircraft. He makes it sound like there are a bunch of old recon pilots and astronauts out there that are withering away or something from their exposure during missions. Not so. In my line of work, I meet a good number of astronauts, some from even the Apollo era. Almost all of them have been in much better health than I, including those who have been on long-duration missions. The only one I have met who has died was Deke Slayton, who died of cancer, but not at an early age. Thus ends Bad Research Alert #1. >Today, the SR-71 Blackbird has been retired, relegated to the >history books and removed from active service. Bad Research Alert #2: The SR-71 was in mothballs, but has been recalled to duty some time back. I felt that the errors and innuendo in this article were too disturbing to let slip. I don't think that every UFO sighting is ET surveying us, but neither do I believe that all, or even a majority of them, were part of an Air Force/CIA coverup of black aircraft. The self-serving nature of Mr. Smith's lack of research rubbed me the wrong way. Craig Beasley
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 12 UpDate: Re: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars - Fleming From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:45:25 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:27:54 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars - Fleming >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 01:15:39 -0400 (EDT) >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >Subject: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net> >>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:49:23 -0600 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Subject: UpDate: Re: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars >>>Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:24:55 -0400 (EDT) >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >>>Subject: Re: Geysers vs. Dust Devils on Mars - Fleming ><snip> >>>Why, Vince DiPietro actually wants Kenneth Starr to >>>investigate the Mars pictures and NASA. Now _that's_ the way to >>>conduct real scientific research. >>No, it's a way to conduct a criminal investigation. >Lan, List: >So, this is what we've got: on the one hand many planetary >scientists who think that the pix shows a dust devil, and a >couple who think that it is a water spout. You propose >launching a criminal investigation of these scientists and NASA >because they don't subescribe to your theory of Martian geysers? >I want to point out that this is _not_ science. It fits, in >fact, the very definition of McCarthyism. I suppose that you >have your List of 100 Unbelievers in NASA and academia? I >remember watching The Hearings on TV back when I was a kid, and >I can imagine it now: "Are you now or have you ever been a >card-carrying member of the ET Doubters? Answer the question, >Dr. Malin." Boy, you sure beat _that_ strawman to a pulp. What DiPietro is advocating, of course, is not investigating JPL for what people there think; he believes they should be investigated for what they have done that may be in violation of the law. I doubt "ignoring evidence" would be grounds for a special prosecutor. That's bad science, but I don't think a federal case could be made out of it. However, two things that may be reasonable grounds for Congressional investigation are: * the letter repeatedly sent to members of Congress during the 1990's by NASA Public Affairs Office falsely claiming there were additional Viking images that showed the "Face" went away under different lighting conditions; * creating an incredibly poor "enhancement" of the MGS "Face" image (i.e., the Catbox) using non-standard image processing techniques and then releasing it just in time for the evening news the day after the image was taken and before anyone had time to do proper enhancements. There's no reason to believe that these actions were mistakes; they have every appearance of being intentional attempts to mislead the public and Congress itself. I think that apparent abuses of power like this would automatically trigger Congressional investigations for anything less controversial than the question of possible evidence of intelligent life on another planet.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 12 UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Easton From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:59:06 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:30:50 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Easton >>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 20:51:57 -0400 >>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@temporaldoorway.com> >>Subject: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 21:34:35 -0700 (PDT) >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Mark wrote to Mac Tonnies: >>All in all, it behooves us to again see that Arnold never >>claimed to have seen disk-shaped UFOs. >These sketches bear no relationship to the first on record by >Arnold, in the Blue Book files, which do indeed look largely >disk shaped. Mark, These sketches do however depict 'crescent-shaped', or 'bat-like' objects, which Arnold originally described. These early descriptions are noted in my current Fortean Times article: "Arnold described how those nine objects in formation resembled "the tail of a Chinese kite" blowing in the wind, or "speed boats on rough water". Using an unusual simile, he added: "they flew like a saucer would if you skipped it across the water." In the media frenzy that followed, this phrase, intended to describe their motion, was misconstrued to be a description of how the objects looked. So 'flying saucers' were born and the true facts swept aside in the ensuing hysteria. From these newspaper reports - before the 'flying saucer' mythology got a firm grip on popular imagination - we can locate Kenneth Arnold's earliest expressions. He described the objects as "flat like a pie pan and somewhat bat-shaped," according to the 'Pendleton, Oregon, East Oregonian' of June 26. They were "crescent-shaped planes", stated the Oregon Journal on June 27, reporting Arnold as saying: "They looked like they were rocking. I looked for the tails but suddenly realized they didn't have any. They were half-moon shaped, oval in front and convex in the rear." It's clear that Arnold is not describing 'flying saucer' UFOs as we have come to picture them. In a formative radio interview for KWRC on 25 June, he confirms these odd details: "I couldn't find any tails on 'em. And, uh, the whole, our observation of these particular ships, didn't last more than about two and a half minutes and I could see them only plainly when they seemed to tip their wing, or whatever it was, and the sun flashed on them. They looked something like a pie plate that was cut in half with a sort of a convex triangle in the rear." [End] >I'm not sure how you can make such a statement if you are >familiar with the historical record. Mac is absolutely correct - Arnold didn't observe disk-shaped UFOs. Indeed, on at least two occasions he publicly acknowledged the flying saucer mythology: 1: CUFOS Associate Newsletter, February-March 1984, page 3; Transcript of Ed Murrow-Kenneth Arnold Telephone Conversation ARNOLD:...I told the press, they misquoted me, and in the excitement of it all, one newspaper and another on got it as ensnarled up that nobody knew just exactly what they were talking about, I guess. MURROW: Here's how the name "flying saucer" was born. ARNOLD: These objects more or less fluttered like they were, oh, I'd say, boats on very rough water or very rough air of some type, and when I described how they flew, I said that they flew like they take a saucer and throw it across the water. Most of the newspapers misunderstood and misquoted that too. They said that I said that they were saucer-like; I said that they flew in a saucer-like fashion. MURROW: That was an historic misquote. While Mr. Arnold's original explanation has been forgotten, the term "flying saucer" has become a household word. Few people realize that Mr. Arnold has reported seeing these same strange objects in the sky on three other occasions". 2: Pendleton, Oregon, East Oregonian, Saturday, July 23, 1977 'In One Ear' Column Crescents, Not Saucers By The East Oregonian Staff When Idaho pilot Kenneth Arnold stopped in Pendleton this week, he was particularly interested in a recent EO article about the 30th anniversary of his flying saucer report. His interest centered on an illustration that went with the article, which was written by Joel Davis. Arnold said ever since he reported his sighting, in late June, 1947, the news media had implied that Arnold saw circular, saucer-shaped craft. Not so. Arnold said the mysterious craft were shaped like crescents and appeared smooth except for glass- like circles on top. Arnold said the confusion probably stemmed from the fact that he told an EO reporter that day 30 years ago that the craft looked "like saucers skipping across water." Thus was born the phrase "flying saucers." Arnold's wife, Doris, was wearing a necklace with a miniature of the crescent-shaped saucer. The necklace was made in 1948, a year after Arnold's sighting. [END] IUR's March/April 1985 issue featured a 'rediscovered' Arnold drawing on the cover and in this Arnold shows the different outlines he recalls. There's a scan of this on my web site at: http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/arnold/sketch3.jpg What to make of it? It's confusing and could be that Arnold illustrates altering profiles as the objects changed shape when they repeatedly 'fluttered and glided'. The sketch I've now queried, which may also have been drawn by Arnold, shows the 'bat-like' outline which comes up again in the photograph accompanying his book, plus can be see in the IUR featured sketch. It seems there may have been a significant misunderstanding about Arnold's various depictions. In his book, Arnold relates how after the incident he stopped off at Yakima, on route to Pendleton, and it was there he told Al Baxter and fellow pilots about his sighting. Arnold further explains how after took off again, "I remembered that I had forgotten to mention the fact that one of these craft looked different from the rest, was darker and of a slightly different shape". I asked about this some 4-5 years ago and questioned whether the one which was 'different' related to Arnold's sketch of the 'bat- like' object, which he is shown holding in that well-known photograph. I was led to believe this was correct. I don't think it is - in fact I'm now certain as can be it isn't - and I believe that artist's drawing of the 'bat-like' profile shows how Arnold _always_ essentially perceived his unidentified objects. It's precisely how he first described them, explains why in that photograph of Arnold with the sketch, he is pointing to the object and indicating, 'this is what I saw' and was so memorable that a 'crescent-shaped' formed the commemorative necklace made for his wife in 1948. So, what made one of the objects dissimilar? In his book Arnold says it was "darker and of a slightly different shape". Not much to go on. However, in his speech at the First International UFO Congress, during June, 1977, he expounded: "As they were going past this Goat Ridge the second from the last one seemed...it was not reflecting and it seemed to turn its rear end toward me - I guess that's the best expression I can use - and I could see that it was a very wraith-like looking thing, but it wasn't round at all and the other ones gave me the impression they were rather like a tadpole. If you've ever seen a tadpole, they have a little sort of a peak at their rear, but I couldn't quite positively determine if they were all the same design as this one I particularly noticed or whether they were... actually this one was a little larger, it seemed a little darker in color than the others and its wingspan seemed a little bit lighter. Of course a leader of a group of craft of this kind would, of course, you would assume would probably be the first ship. This was second from the last one and the last ship I couldn't see too well because he was fluttering and jerking very rapidly". It looks like Arnold isn't sure himself about any differences and there's nothing here which impacts on his initial reported statements that the objects resembled 'crescent-shaped planes' and were 'bat-like'. Why the difference in his sketch for the Air Force? Arnold was under intense pressure to substantiate his claims and we maybe see some evidence of this when in his 'official' report he describes the objects as "these saucer-like discs". Remember the Ed Murrow interview: "They said that I said that they were saucer-like; I said that they flew in a saucer-like fashion". Arnold obviously did tell the USAF these were 'saucer-like' and it appears they actually weren't, as he later confirmed to Ed Murrow, on 7 April, 1950. Whatever the explanation and whether it influenced his 'official' sketch at that time, we can't be sure. Maybe not, as that more disc-like profile does feature in 'IUR' drawing. I would be interested to know where and when the sketch featured on that IUR cover originated. Can anyone also confirm when a copy of Arnold's official report was obtained, presumably under the FOIA? In short, we have considerable evidence why the artist's sketch accompanying Arnold's book is based on Arnold's sincere recollection of how these objects looked 'most of the time' (maybe during the gliding phase). In that 1977 interview, he confirms my conclusion and puts an end to any argument. Sorry this is so long, however, it deals with a central point which needs to be recognised. I hope it's been helpful. It's becoming clear from feedback received that no-one seems to be familiar with the new sketch I've highlighted. It's a key piece of evidence and it's date - especially if one of Arnold's first drawings - would confirm the overall context. I'll have to track this down somehow. There's one other Arnold sketch, at: http://project1947.com/fig/ka47.htm Can someone please confirm where and when this was published? James Easton. E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk www.ufoworld.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 12 UpDate: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:11:30 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:41:42 -0400 Subject: UpDate: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly Hi everyone. Below is a recent news article which reminds us that as far as being able to identify the true origins of some peculiar rocks and ultimately answers about our own origins, science is still in Kindergarten. Nick Balaskas <snip> EMBARGOED UNTIL JULY 12, 11 a.m. PST (2 p.m. ET) Image of central Namibian desert at: http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/newsrel/science/mcanomaly.htm Credit: NASA UCSD CHEMISTS FIND EXTRATERRESTRIAL 'ANOMALY' IN EARTH'S ROCKS Chemists at the University of California, San Diego have discovered an isotope anomaly previously thought unique to meteorites and other extraterrestrial rocks in sulfate minerals on Earth. The surprising finding, detailed in the July 13 issue of Nature, concludes a decade-long search in terrestrial rocks and sediments for this "anomalous" oxygen-isotope signature. Such signatures had been detected before in gases on Earth. But the inability before now to detect this anomaly in terrestrial solids had forced scientists to conclude that it was unique to extraterrestrial sources and an exclusive byproduct of nucleosynthesis in stars. Its discovery in terrestrial rocks in a form that showed it could be produced on Earth not only alters ideas among planetary scientists about the source of this anomaly. It will now give earth scientists and atmospheric chemists an important new probe to answer questions about the composition of Earth's early atmosphere, the atmospheric processes of ancient volcanic eruptions, past ocean circulation patterns and early biological productivity. <snip> With the exception of the isotopic signatures of gases trapped in ice cores for the past 200,000 years, scientists have had little knowledge of how major components in the Earth's ancient atmosphere-such as sulfur, carbon, and oxygen-cycled through the oceans and terrestrial rocks. The UCSD development is important because it now provides a window into some of these processes extending millions or billions of years into the Earth's past. <snip> The UCSD discovery also suggests that planetary geologists need to be careful in interpreting the origin of oxygen-isotope anomalies on meteorites, since these signatures can occur in terrestrial as well as extraterrestrial rocks. "Our observations suggest that caution needs to be exercised when looking for these anomalies in meteorites, because some of them may have been imparted during their residence on Earth," says Bao. "Some meteorites lay on ice or in the desert for thousands of years, so the secondary minerals in these meteorites may have originated on Earth." <snip>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 12 UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:55:18 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:43:36 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Mortellaro >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:41:20 -0400 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:45:08 +0100 >>From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >There have been published more than a dozen explanations for the >Arnold sighting. >Therefore it _must_ have been explained... right? >The most recent are geese by Kottmeyer, pelicans by Easton and >meteors by Klass. >Now, surely, _one_ of these explanations must be convincing! >_Not_! Dear Boys, Men, Women, Other Listers and EBK, I was under the impression that we had all settled on Pelicans! What the hell is going on here anyway? I had all my alien photos changed in order to remove the broom as a means of transport and replaced it with Pelicans. This is very confusing. Will someone please tell me what the ex-spurts have all decided in this matter? Huh? I too am writing a heavy book and I want to make sure it's quite politically correct. Wouldn't wanna insult a researcher now would I? _Not_ Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 12 UpDate: A New UFO 'Invasion' In Mexico? From: Werner Walter <113236.1604@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:58:12 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:46:10 -0400 Subject: UpDate: A New UFO 'Invasion' In Mexico? CNN�s "World View" is reporting that Mexico is undergoing a new UFO-invasion. Does anyone know more about this...? Werner Walter in Germany
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 12 UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Aldrich From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:26:55 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 22:27:15 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Aldrich >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:46:02 -0300 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... -. Friedman >>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:45:24 -0400 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >>Subject: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>The MJ-12 seems to be modeled after material from General George >>Marshall's papers. In fact, one MJ-12 document from the first >>set had an altered letter from Marshall to Republican >>presidential candidate Dewey concerning the Japanese "Magic" >>code intercepts in 1944. The dates and and names had been >>changed and the word Majic substituted for the word Magic. >Sorry, but this is flat out wrong. The document ion question was >NOT in the first set. This reflects the false claims in the CIA >history article. Quite right! I meant to insert the name Cooper here. That is "the first set of Cooper MJ-12 douments...." >I had pointed out that the "My Dear Carl >Letter", supposedly from Marshall to Carl Humelsine was a take >off on the famous letter from Marshall to Dewey. I had discussed >this item with Dr. Larry Bland, sent him a copy and fully agreed >with his conclusions as noted in TOP SECRET/MAJIC. Dr. Bland gives you credit for bringing this to his attention. The discussion of this document and Dr. Bland's conclusion use to be on the Internet. I wanted to include a pointer in my post, but the webpage appears to be gone. If anyone has a copy, we would be pleased to post it in the forum area of the Project 1947 website, if Dr. Bland consents, of course. >There is, however,a second letter among the Tim Cooper documents >that was supposedly from Hillenkoetter to Truman which was an >emulation of a letter from Marshall to Roosevelt which I noted >in Ron Lewin's book "The American Magic".. This contains the >switch from Magic to Majic. Both are discussed in my MUFON. 2000 paper. I look forward to reading it! >>You won't find any mention of this in the Woods' work. >>Actually, the Woods go out of their way *not* to detect any >>problems with the MJ-12 documents. As previously mentioned, the >>style of the Marshall letters and messages are incorporated into >>the MJ-12 documents. Although military Top Secret documents from >>the 1947 era had Top Secret control numbers, TS documents during >>World War II did not. One can view various TS documents with the >>control numbers at the Project 1947 website: >>http://www.project1947.com/ >As I have pointed out in the past in response to similar charges >from Ed Stewart, I had published several post-1947 genuine TS >documents that did _not_ have TS control numbers in my "Final >Report on Operation Majestic 12". True, but irrelavent. Please note above I said military documents post WW II were required to have Top Secret control numbers. The documents that you have found, have been demilitarized and declassified at various archives. (I, too, have found TS military documents without the required control.) However, while they were active documents the were required to have controls. See for example: Various links to Top Secret Documents: http://www.project1947.com/fig/48docdex.htm#top Page from a Top Secret Control Log: http://www.project1947.com/fig/tslog.htm >I had also quoted from >Marshall Archive and Ike Library archivists that often TS >control numbers were NOT used on TS documents. There is a major >difference between 20 copies of a 20 page article and 1 copy of >a one page item from A to B. Once again, I said military documents. The State Department used slightly different controls. The White House used some other type of system. See also, AIR 203 on my sight. The Top Secret Control Numbers are visible. However, if you look in the USAF Directorate of Intelligence .009 Correspondence file you will find a declassified copy of AIR 203 with all control numbers and other required Top Secret document information erdicated. It is true that the TS Control numbers were not required during World War II. If the archivists told you they were not required on miliatary Top Secret documents after the War, they are indeed in error. I have been a Security Manager, Top Secret Control Officer, COMIC Top Secret, Classified Document Custodian, COMSEC Custodian, Top Secret Destruction Official, and a number other positions that required me to handle Top Secret and other doucments and material that requried continuous accountibility. In additions I held various Critical Nuclear Weapons positions including Custodian of Nuclear Release Authentication COMSEC and other materials. I have the required expertise to discuss Top Secret control procedures. The Cooper purported military MJ-12 documents are active documents. They would still be required to have control numbers as long as they continued to be classified Top Secret. >>This is the first hint. Cooper's first set of documents do not. >>I expect any new documents from Cooper on MJ-12 will incorporate >>them now. If you will notice, some documents in Cooper's first >>set are addressed to the Director of Naval Intelligence. During >>WW II, it was indeed the Director of Naval Intelligence. >>However, about October 1945 the title changed to Chief of Naval >>Intelligence. So the Cooper 1947 documents are wrong. Director >>of Naval Intelligence again became the title about 1948. Two >>years of research on the Wood's part did not detect this. >>Second hint. >Some titles are carried over long past their technical demise. I >found War Department seals on items from the 1960s, for. example. High ranking staff - especially high ranking intelligence staff - would hardly make the error of referring to Chief of Naval Intelligence by a superceded title. Especially, after having nearly two years to make the adjustment. >>"Eyes Only." Marshall had summaries of the most important Magic >>intercepts distributed daily to various US officials, President, >>Adm Leahy, etc. He had a list and only those officials were >>allowed to see the papers. Additional many were mark "Eyes >>Only." This is not a security classification, however. As many >>of Marshall's message to Devers, Eisenhower, etc were marked Top >>Secret, "Eyes only General Devers." Marshall and General Hap >>Arnold exchanged letters about Arnold's health situation in >>which Arnold would mark the letters for Marshall "secret (eyes >>only)." >>Where did the word "Majestic" come from? Well, I am not going to >>tell, do your own research. It is more satisfying that way. >>Now we have the Eisenhower Briefing document which has one >>scenario and the Cooper MJ-12 documents that have another. Both >>can't be right. Most haven't noticed the contradictions. Stan >>Friedman and the Woods will be at the MUFON conference; so one >>would expect sparks to fly, but in keeping with "not being >>negative" no contradictions will be mentioned. I don't think we >>will hear any comments at all about these two different >>scenarios. Friedman and the Woods have indeed taken swipes at >>each other. Friedman mentioned that some of Cooper's documents >>were "parodies." of other documents. >>The one thing the Woods have done, is brought to light that SOM >>1-01 came from Kirtland AFB. What honest, upstanding, honorable >>military man associated with Bill Moore also came from Kirtland? >>Now someone recently posted a number of characteristics of MJ-12 >>that his informant told him about. He missed one. Incredibly >>stupid! As pointed out before, SOM 1-01, is completely silent >>about overhead cover to prevent observation of any UFO recovery >>from the air or from higher ground. Has no one heard of >>camouflage nets? Something a pilot or any Army guy would be >>familiar with: the necessity of overhead cover. But an OSI type >>who has probably never seen a field exercise? If you were never >>close to a field exercise you wouldn't think of that. Of course, >>may be MJ-12 is incredibly stupid. They do leave manuals and >>paperwork where it can easily be copied and transferred to >>Cooper's mail box. >>One ufologist told me he was relectant to write an expose of the >>Cooper papers as it would just tell the hoaxers how to do it >>better the next time. A valid concern, I believe. Actually, >>looking at the latest crop of MJ-12 stuff, it is less convincing >>than the former. However, I do believe that subsequent material >>found in Cooper's mail box or more likely sent directly to the >>Woods will be much better and will no longer reflect the sytle >>of doucments found in the Marshall Papers. Since Cooper has a >>wide range of FOIAs in right now, on diverse subjects, I expect >>that the new MJ-12 documents will reveal a number of changes in >>style and content. >>The main things about the MJ-12 documents, we don't know where >>they came from, and we can't find any link in the real world. >I don't know who Deep Throat was either. It is the info that >matters. The photographer of the EBD and TF items and the >planter of the CT memo obviously were risking a great deal >and violating the law. Not if they were invalid or fake documents, then the charge might just be falsifying an official document... hardly a charge that someone not subject to the UCMJ is likely to face. >I recommend that people buy the MUFON Conference. Proceedings >as they will have papers from Bob Wood and. myself. I certainly >conclude that many of the newer documents. are emulations and >show the originals. I look forward to reading them and hearing discussion on these topics. I hope discussions will cover the problems with the Cooper documents you identified above, I am most curious to hear the Woods' responses. >Big hint. Check out "Wedemeyer Reports" by General Albert C. >Wedemeyer, 1958, from your local library. >Each document must be taken on its own merits... guilt by >association is hardly science. The problems are, restated from my last post: 1. We don't know where the documents came from. Provenance is not demonstrated. That some documents may be cleaver, does not, in fact, make them valid. 2. There is no connection yet found in the real world for an such an organization as MJ-12. I would add this: 3. All documents are photographs or photocopies. There are no actual documents for anyone to examine. Photo/photocopies can easily be subject to all kinds of monkey business.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 12 UpDate: Astronaut Cooper Describes UFO Experience In New Book From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 02:45:42 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 22:30:36 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Astronaut Cooper Describes UFO Experience In New Book Source: Fox News http://www.foxnews.com/science/071200/cooper_fnc.sml Stig *** Former Astronaut Gordon Cooper On UFOs and Space Travel Wednesday, July 12, 2000 Gordon Cooper was one of the original Mercury Seven astronauts and part of a select group of the nation's top military test pilots who braved the frontiers of outer space. AP/Wide World (Image) Astronaut Gordon Cooper, July 1965 ** He was also the last American to fly in space alone. On that journey, almost 40 years ago, he did not find extraterrestrial intelligence, but he did find a deeper sense of personal faith. As David Asman uncovered in the afternoon edition of Fox News Live, many untrue reports came out about Cooper and his extraterrestrial sightings in space. On Tuesday, Cooper said all of the reports were false, but he did have an out-of-this world experience while flying a plane during the height of the Cold War with Russia. "We saw these vehicles that were a lot higher and faster than we were, and we could not get to them with airplanes," Cooper said. "We didn't know what Russia was doing with airplanes so it could have been an advance airplane they were building or it could have been a UFO vehicle." Ever since that flight, Cooper has had an unshakable belief in extraterrestrial intelligence. His new book Leap of Faith, an Astronaut's Journey into the Unknown, recounts his experiences. David Asman pointed out; the only way an object can go undetected on Earth, is to travel faster than the speed of light � a barrier which scientists only recently claimed to have broken. "I agree that you have to go faster than the speed of light to be undetected," Cooper said. "But I don't agree that you cannot break the speed of light, in space, magnetic particles do, they zip around and they are going faster than the speed of light." Cooper's book also touches on how looking down at Earth changed his life. "It's Probably one of the most humbling experiences that I have ever been through," Cooper said. "You are a small part of this great big universe God has made, you feel very small." * For FoxNews.com comments write to comments@newsdigital.com; For Fox News Channel comments write to comments@foxnews.com � Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. � Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved. � News Digital Media 2000. All rights reserved.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 12 UpDate: Sagan and Firmage: Not So Perfect Together? From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 03:17:34 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 22:32:32 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Sagan and Firmage: Not So Perfect Together? Source: Washington Post http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/nation/columns/roughdraft/A29525-2000Jul12.html Stig *** Sagan and Firmage: Not So Perfect Together? Joel Achenbach can be reached by e-mail at achenbachj@washpost.com. You can find past Rough Draft columns at the archive page. Wednesday, July 12, 2000; 1:51 PM ** Carl Sagan is a modern-day hero of science. He inspired millions of people to ponder the beauty of the universe, and to understand that we are a tiny, precious fragment of the cosmos. But he also implored them to be skeptical, to resist superstition and pseudo-science. Sagan told everyone to keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out. Now comes a bit of news that just about knocked me out of my chair. Joe Firmage, a Silicon Valley millionaire who became a highbrow UFO guru after he was visited in his bedroom by "a remarkable being clothed in brilliant white light," has signed a deal with Ann Druyan, head of Carl Sagan Productions � and Sagan's widow � to start a new company that will have a Web portal and produce science-based entertainment. I want to resist the urge to start babbling hysterically about how wrong this is. But I do think the names "Firmage" and "Sagan" do not belong in the same sentence, unless separated by an extremely elaborate clause. Sagan promoted science and scientific thinking. Firmage talks about a bunch of bizarre stuff that Sagan would have rejected in a heartbeat. Sagan said aliens probably aren't here. Firmage says they probably are. It's not a trivial philosophical distinction. To be fair, Firmage is a cut above 90 percent of the folks who work in the field of "anomalies." He's incredibly smart. He's successful, having started the Internet services firm USWeb before leaving to pursue his UFO interests. He's not crazy. He doesn't scream or rant. He's a perfectly genial fellow. He's also ambitious. Firmage has said he wants to start a movement. Two years ago he pounded out a rambling book, modestly called "The Truth," and put it up on the Internet, but he's since taken it down, which means we can't link to the part where the mysterious entity in his bedroom emits an electric blue sphere that enter's Firmage's body and triggers "the most unimaginable ecstasy I have ever experienced, a pleasure vastly beyond orgasm." Druyan has been a fierce defender of her husband's legacy. She's passionate about scientific reasoning. Why would she go into business with Firmage? How could she do it? Her answer: the new venture will not allow Firmage to advance his fringe theories. There is a specific legal agreement that prevents Firmage from doing so, she said. "It unequivocably states that if I feel that Carl's legacy has in any way been besmirched by any statement made in the name of our company, then I walk and I'll take everything with me. Nothing less than that can protect the legacy," Druyan told me. I asked her if this was an unholy alliance. She said no. "Carl and I worked with a lot of people over the last few decades who had conventional religious beliefs that in some ways are as remote from what I believe as what Joe Firmage believes," she said. Firmage said, "I want to tread lightly." But he made clear that his new media company � he'll run the Web portal and Druyan will head the production studio � will deal with the kinds of theories that interest him. "Will I use this media company to inequitably promote my view? No," he said. But he said it would "absolutely" deal, responsibly, with "science anomalies." The "historic joint venture," as the press release puts it, is code-named Project Voyager. It has $23 million in venture capital behind it. I will admit that despite reading the press release and talking to Firmage and Druyan I remain a bit fuzzy on what this company will actually do. The press release calls it "a new kind of media network that intends to transform entertainment and learning drawn from the rapidly expanding knowledge base of science." The production studio will make TV shows and movies, which will be promoted on the Web site alongside news articles and other educational material. In the press release, Druyan says, "There is a hunger for myths, images and dreams that do justice to our radically altered sense of who, where and when we are � And where we might go and who we might become." Right. Firmage will be tempted use his new company to promote his theories about breakthrough physics. He appears to believe that a small group of scientists have discovered a heretofore secret property of the universe that will someday allow us to extract limitless energy from the "vacuum" of space, cancel the inertial mass of an object, build faster-than-light spaceships, and zip around the cosmos at the snap of a finger. That imminent breakthrough could explain why aliens are here, snooping around, checking us out. They know we're about to go galactic. They want to give us the ground rules, maybe. It's hard to know how much of this Firmage really believes and how much of it he is merely entertaining with his very open mind. But if humans and aliens get together soon in a formal way, Firmage wants to be at the table. Firmage argues that he believes in science. He says he only goes where the facts lead him. But I have an unfortunate fact to report: Everyone working in the world of anomalies � of UFOs, near-death experiences, reincarnation, cattle mutilations, crop circles, psychokinesis, the Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot and so on � says exactly the same thing. We're scientific! We're not crazy! We just want to stick to the facts, and the facts tell us there are enormous hairy proto-humans lumbering through the Oregon forests! Firmage doesn't say that aliens are necessarily here right now. But he thinks it's "highly likely" that we've been visited at some point. A small group of people have had knowledge about this issue for the past fifty years, he said. "I believe that the most economical explanation for some number of UFOS is extraterrestrial visitation," he said. "Ann disagrees with that view. Both of us agree to let science arbitrate." Firmage has also been talking with The Planetary Society, which was founded by Sagan in 1980 to increase public support for space science. Some kind of business deal could be announced at any time. Firmage offers one thing to the keepers of the Sagan flame: Money. He has been able to raise tens of millions of dollars in venture capital. What they offer Firmage, in turn, is a big shot of credibility. The SETI Institute, meanwhile, said no to Firmage. All these groups need the kind of money Firmage has, but they need their good reputations, too, and SETI, which takes on the already rather spectacular goal of detecting alien civilizations through scientific techniques, doesn't need to get mixed up with a UFO person. Sagan's longtime friend and colleague, Frank Drake, the head of the SETI Institute, told me that a deal with Firmage's firm could have meant sizable streams of revenue coming into his organization. But it wasn't the right thing to do. "Any connection with Firmage, no matter what disclaimers you put on your site, people will take this as an endorsement of the views of Firmage. This would damage our image in the minds of many of our scientific colleagues and members of the general public, including major donors who support us," Drake said. There is a thought I've clung to as I've ruminated about this latest move by Firmage. It is that Sagan's legacy isn't up for grabs, no matter who strikes what deal. Sagan's name can't be bought. He put his ideas on the record. He wrote books. The books had readers, and those readers are not stupid. We know the difference between Carl Sagan and Joe Firmage. * Related Links: Past Columns: Feasting on Life's Lessons (The Washington Post, 07/10/00) The Hot Economy Keeps On Truckin' (The Washington Post, 07/07/00) Yawning at Marvels (The Washington Post, 07/05/00) Rough Draft Archive From Britannica: Biography of Carl Sagan Rough Draft appears three times a week at washingtonpost.com and would very much like to find a way to cancel its inertial mass. � 2000 The Washington Post Company
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 13 UpDate: Re: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published - From: John Winterflood <jwinter@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:28:10 +0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:14:35 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published - >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:21:41 -0600 >From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:18:18 +0800 >>From: John Winterflood <jwinter@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> >>Subject: Re: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >>It is important to remember that the pressure to be used for the >>triple-point is the _partial_ vapour pressure of the water >>component of the atmosphere. The atmosphere on Mars is ~95% >>carbon dioxide, so if the _total_ atmospheric pressure according >>to Malin is "at or below .... 6.1 mbar" then the partial >>pressure contributed by the very small and variable water vapour >>content is going to be well and truly below the 6.1 mbar >>triple-point requirement. With this understanding Malin's >>statement seems correct and reasonable. >It is neither correct nor reasonable. What determines the >boiling point temperature of water is the _total_ atmospheric >pressure, not the partial pressure. ... You are quite right that the _boiling_ point is determined by total atmospheric pressure - that is when the vapour pressure is sufficient to expand to produce bubbles in the volume of a liquid in a system very far from equilibrium. However the _triple_ point has to do with a system in equilibrium - where the rate of molecules evaporating from the surface is equal to the rate at which the molecules condense. These rates are always determined by the partial pressure of the molecules that are evaporating/condensing and are virtually independent of the partial pressures of other species of molecules present.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 13 UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - YoungB From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 22:53:20 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:16:15 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - YoungB >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:59:06 +0100 >Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:30:50 -0400 >Subject: UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Easton <snip> >These sketches do however depict 'crescent-shaped', or >'bat-like' objects, which Arnold originally described. <snip> >From these newspaper reports - before the 'flying saucer' >mythology got a firm grip on popular imagination - we can locate >Kenneth Arnold's earliest expressions. He described the objects >as "flat like a pie pan and somewhat bat-shaped," according to >the 'Pendleton, Oregon, East Oregonian' of June 26. They were >"crescent-shaped planes", stated the Oregon Journal on June 27, >reporting Arnold as saying: "They looked like they were rocking. >I looked for the tails but suddenly realized they didn't have >any. They were half-moon shaped, oval in front and convex in the >rear." Jim, Mark, Listers: You know, this is almost a classic description of a Fata Morgana mirage. They can look like bridges and arches. Fata Morgana mirages sometimes have motions, too. He was flying more or less at right angles to the view. I know that this is a very old proferred explanation, but I just threw it out for fun. Clear skies, Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 13 UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:17:33 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:17:41 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Maccabee >Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:05:51 -0700 >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> >Subject: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:45:24 -0400 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >>Subject: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >>The main things about the MJ-12 documents, we don't know where >>they came from, and we can't find any link in the real world. >>Jan Aldrich >This is a point I brought up some time ago regarding MJ-12 and >other so-called UFO/Government documents. Not one of these bozos >involved in researching these documents has any knowledge as to >their origin. This is a mistake made time and time again in this >field, from phoney alien autopsy footage to bogus UFO documents. >A word of advice, know your source and always question it. Fortunately there are real, traceable documents which provide an eye-opening view of the history of early Air Force activities... see "The UFO - FBI Connection".
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 13 UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:18:33 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:21:17 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Maccabee >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 04:23:18 +0100 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Regarding: >>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:45:08 +0100 >>From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>> >Roy wrote: >>Is the Arnold Case for ever on going in the hearts and minds of >>Investigators around the world? >Roy, >One of the reasons it has been a feature of late - although >rarely on UFO UpDates - is that the case has in fact seldom been >the subject of a detailed analysis. >I have expressed elsewhere my regret - I know shared by others - >that so many central questions which have come to light were >never asked of Kenneth Arnold when he was alive. I'm sure he >could have clarified most of them quite easily. >Unfortunately, we're left with only a few accounts, although >richly detailed. When analysed, these do contain a number of >significant contradictions and anomalies. However, as I've said >before, that is perhaps only to be expected and especially over >time. >One crucial factor in understanding the probabilities and which, >if we'd known the answer, might instantly have ruled out a f>ormation of birds as a conceivable explanation, is exactly how >Arnold flew in relation to the nine objects. We know he >mentioned both turning his plane "around" and "sideways" during >the brief observation, yet we have no idea exactly what he meant >- how long did this take, what direction was he heading >afterwards, etc. <snip> >If the most significant UFO account ever, and the foundation for >_almost everything_ related which followed, isn't worth >spending some time looking into, then what is by comparison? >Especially, if that research leads to a new appreciation of the >evidence. I think you might find that some UFO historians who >know the case intimately and consider the Arnold sighting to be >an encounter which can't be explained by contemporary, known >technology, will agree. I would certainly dispute the claim that the Arnold case was the "most significant UFO account ever" The main significance of Arnold's accout is that, because of the personal credibility of the man, his story was transmitted widely and thereby alerted the general population that there was an interest on the part of the press, at least, in knowing about strange-appearing objects in the sky. The interest was centered on the question of whether or not these were our secret projects (a new develpment of the Air Forces) or something coming from "another country." Although te possibility of interpanetary ships was briefly mentioned in the press, explanations soon centered around natural phenomena or military devices (the general public did not necessarily believe the denials by the Air Force, the Atomic Energy Commission, etc. that these were results of a secret aircraft project). I would attach a higher significance to a daylight muliple witness sighting lasting many seconds to minutes or to a sighting involving multiple witnesses, visual, radar and perhaps photographic. See The UFO FBI Connection for examples. For example, the White Sands cinetheodolite movie of objects triangulated to be at 150,000 ft, about 30 ft in diameter and traveling at high speed could be considered "proof" whereas Arnold's sighting was "good evidence." Should the relatively meagre discussions on UFO UpDates bother you, then be exceedingly grateful you're not a subscriber to the UFO Research List! >Does there ever come a time when we say, I think we have reached >a conclusive full and final report into the Arnold Case? It's not possible, Roy. As I purposely noted in the 'Fortean Times' article and is highlighted by an extracted, 'emphasised quote' in the actual publication, "Only Kenneth Arnold really understood what he witnessed". That's the proverbial bottom line. This isn't 'sceptic central'. Well, not yet, anyway. Ufology per se should have no fears about investigating and determining the likely explanation for any UFO report. As Bob Rickard comments in the Magazine's editorial, and which is also the essence of any contributions I have ever made, if ufology was to face up to some blatant realities, then perhaps it might all make more sense than it does. >I would like to ask James directly what is it he thinks that >Arnold saw over Mt. Rainer? Although it's obviously of zero consequence what I might think, it looks like we can reason: >2: Military vehicles of some kind. Not evidently sustainable >4: Natural Phenomena. No way. >5: Meteorological Phenomena. Unless Kenneth Arnold was somewhat deranged and depicted meteors as 'bat-like', or 'crescent-shaped' and which exhibited undulating flight, then, no. >6: An illusion due to Aviation sickness. Obviously not. >1. Intelligent controlled Extraterrestrial vehicles. Why would we ever conclude that? Especially as it's evident there are intrinsic anomalies with Arnold's perception of distance and consequently airspeed. Nine alien spacecraft - surely that's simply a preposterous, unscientific, conclusion. >3: Wildlife. Given that here were nine objects flying in an undulating, characteristically, bird-like formation and that some of Arnold's illustrations are so similar to birds, and acknowledging the established predicament with Arnold's perception about distance and consequently speed, this could be a possibility.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 13 UpDate: NIDS Prompts Speculation From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:22:12 -0400 Subject: UpDate: NIDS Prompts Speculation Greetings list - From: http://www.canoe.ca/EdmontonNews/es.es-07-12-0012.html Shadowy agency prompts speculation By DOUG BEAZLEY, EDMONTON SUN Wednesday, July 12, 2000 A rich-as-God real estate magnate with his own private jet can go just about anywhere he wants, whenever he wants - including North Battleford, Sask., in high August. Question is, why would he want to? Well, if he's Robert T. Bigelow, he goes for the scenery. And the mutilated cattle. "It was a pretty typical case," said Fernand Belzil, St. Paul rancher and one of Canada's top cattle mutilation investigators. "Tongue missing. One ear removed, one eye, the rectum, the udder. Those weird bare spots on the stomach. The corpse was fresh, about 24 hours old." On Aug. 29, 1995, Bigelow, a billionaire who made his pile with hotel chains and apartments in the U.S., flew into North Battleford for the long drive north to a cattle farm that had seen about 15 mutilation cases in 20 years. Bigelow, 56, is something of a legend in the UFO community - a sort of Howard Hughes figure who avoids press attention while dumping huge quantities of cash into research areas most mainstream scientists won't touch: crop circles, flying saucers and mutilated livestock. Bigelow sat in with Belzil on a veterinarian's autopsy of the butchered cow. The cuts, said Belzil, were clean-edged, as if they'd been done with a scalpel. "The cow was supposed to be pregnant, but we never found a fetus," he said. Bigelow took the autopsy results and flew home to Las Vegas. Belzil waited for a report on what the veterinarian found. "All we ever heard was that there was an error in the study. We never got any data back," he said. "Between you and I, it sounds very much like a coverup." It's a suspicion that gets voiced a lot in the UFO field about Bigelow and his research group, the Nevada-based National Institute for Discovery Science. His deep pockets give him access to a wealth of rumors and reports about weird happenings - but NIDS is notoriously stingy with its information. "NIDS is a black hole. Information goes in, nothing comes out," said Gord Kijek of the Alberta UFO Study Group. "Nobody seems to know what their real agenda is." Nobody seems to know a whole lot about Bigelow either. His official NIDS bio describes him as a very wealthy philanthropist with his own aerospace company - currently working on a project to develop the first orbiting space hotel. In 1947, according to the Wall Street Journal, Bigelow's grandparents were buzzed by a glowing red UFO while driving through the Nevada desert late at night. He's reportedly spent more than $10 million of his own money on paranormal research to date, including bankrolling the operation of St. Paul's own UFO hotline between 1996 and 1999. "In return for paying the bills, he got first crack at any UFO sighting report we received," said Paul Pelletier, former hotline administrator. "We weren't allowed to publicize them without NIDS' permission." In 1996, Bigelow sent a team of researchers to a Utah ranch which reportedly had been the site of a range of bizarre phenomena: UFOs the size of football fields, circular doorways appearing in midair, floating balls of light incinerating family pets. He bought out the owners on the condition that they keep mum about whatever they'd seen. "Personally, it's not the way I feel science should be done," said Dr. Jim Butler, a U of A biologist with an interest in the paranormal. "Because of the secrecy, a lot of conspiracy theories get built up around NIDS." Like maybe Bigelow's building his own flying saucer? "I wouldn't put it past him," said Butler, laughing. Colm Kelleher's heard most of the conspiracy theories himself. He's a researcher at NIDS with a resume that includes a biochemistry doctorate from the University of Dublin. He said NIDS is working on some explosive theories about UFOs and cattle mutilation they're in no hurry to publish. "The authentic mutilations are not done by predators," he said. "The cuts show the use of surgical instruments and techniques. We have no indication it's being done by aliens. "People keep saying we're a CIA front, we're the Men in Black. We're just prudent. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Right now the UFO field is 95% speculation and fantasy, 5% data of very poor quality. This is why these phenomena are still ridiculed by the media. "And no, we are not (building a UFO)." --- Best regards, - Blair Cummins ufoblair@hotmail.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 13 UpDate: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - McCoy From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:24:29 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:27:17 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - McCoy Hello all, John. >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:47:52 +0100 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >This may be of interest: >Source: WorldNetDaily >http://www.worldnetdaily.com/ >Wednesday, July 12, 2000 >Little green men or the Air Force? >by Charles Smith >The Freedom of Information Act is wonderful when it comes to >unexplained reports of extraterrestrial visits. The Federation >of American Scientists, a Washington-based science advocacy >group, recently discovered through the Freedom of Information >Act that reports of UFO activity also corresponded with the >flights of top- secret American spy aircraft. Absoulte total ah, cow-pies (not even freshly made) >In the 1960s, the Central Intelligence Agency and the U.S. Air >Force worked very hard to generate UFO cover stories for secret >aircraft. The result was a hysterical joke on the world that >echoes through to this day. Yep, pards I think I know who the hysterical ones are. >Keep in mind; this was during the height of the Cold War when >the USA and USSR were on the verge of nuclear combat. The >aircraft involved were certainly alien with their incredible >performance. The silver long-winged U-2 aircraft could fly 14 >miles high and stay aloft for hours, while the blackened, >delta-shaped SR-71 could fly even higher at speeds exceeding >2,000 miles an hour. Ah, Powers U-2 wasn't silver-black I believe was the color or a non specular type blue. >Flying a UFO can also be hazardous to your health. Brave U-2 and >SR- 71 crews flew mission after mission over Russia, China, >Cuba, Israel, Germany, Korea, Vietnam and other hot global >spots. Most came home safe. Some lost their lives. Many veterans >still suffer today from the long-term effects of space flight in >the early, unshielded aircraft. Where the hell did this one come from? Read "Sled Driver" from Mach One press (1991) expliains it all. Oh Brian Schul is the author and already had a little prob with a burning T-28 in "Nam". >Today, the SR-71 Blackbird has been retired, relegated to the >history books and removed from active service. The highflying >U-2 lives on in an improved version called the TR-1. Yet, there >are rumors of even more exotic vehicles that still await the >first public viewing. The stories of UFOs and UFO-like >performance continue to persist, along with missing billions in >the world of black projects. The Ol' sled is still out there folks, at Edwards working for NASA. >The first rumors of a follow-on aircraft to the Blackbird came >at the end of the Cold War. Reports of a highflying aircraft >using the call sign "Stove-pipe" became the now-legendary >"Aurora" project. Although, never publicly confirmed to exist, >Aurora has been sighted and photographed escorting U.S. strike >aircraft. Not denying that, too many sightings: (still cant prove it exsists, right?) >The large diamond shaped aircraft is reported to be capable of >exceeding 8,000 miles an hour and was originally designed to >attack Moscow with nuclear bombs. Aurora's extreme performance >does not come cheap. Aurora is also reported to be more >expensive than a Space Shuttle. >Some of the experimental U.S. aircraft tested during the Cold >War obtained their performance using propulsion systems driven >with volatile and dangerous fuels. One secret U.S. project >included an atomic ramjet. The deadly engine, a radioactive >ramjet, heated air in the radioactive core of a miniature atomic >reactor. The atomic jet engine was developed to fly a giant >missile carrying a multi-megaton thermonuclear bomb deep into >the Soviet Union. The atomic ramjet was never deployed but U.S. >nuclear engineers did successfully test the lethal radioactive >engine in the open desert air before the project was finally >canceled. Yep Project Pluto - written up by Air and Space (Smithsonian) back in I believe '95. This thing was a device that only could have been thought of by Dr. Strangelove. I think the engine was not the Pluto project, but the NERVA atomic rocket project. The NERVA could have been used on Planetary and perhaps, Stellar Missions, but the powers that had been, said that it wasn't fair or some such thing. Later the Russians flew a reactor that wasn't much different than NERVA's - on their recon satillies. >How about an invisible airplane? Stealth aircraft such as the >B-2 and the F-117A are not new. It is well known that the B-2 >and F-117A are practically invisible to radar but the aircraft >themselves can be seen. One reported robot plane project was >also nearly invisible to the naked eye in broad daylight. >Ironically, the concept is not new. In the 1940s, the U.S. Navy >developed operation "Yahootie" the first practical attempt to >create an invisible aircraft. U.S. Navy bombers were considered >too slow to visually spot a German U-boat cruising on the >surface and attack in daylight. Submarine commanders often >spotted the lumbering bombers and dove safely away before the >planes could attack. Oh yeah, two U-boats were sunk by blimps, talk about lumbering. one U-boat commander said that his biggest worry of the Atlantic Coast was:"Those Dammed little yellow Airplanes!" WACO biplanes and others flown by the Civil Air Patrol. Let alone the SBD Dive bomber pilot who uttered the immortal words:"Sighted Sub, sank same." in the Pacific - all in the early days of WWII. >In response, a string of bright lights were arrayed on the wings >and propeller hubs of the sub-hunter planes. The bomber crews >adjusted the lights to match the natural background light behind >the aircraft, masking itself against the sky. The so-called >"isoluminous" principle is based upon the perception that >different objects displaying the same brightness seem >indistinguishable from each other. The principle worked very >well until 1942, when the Navy introduced airborne radar, >allowing bombers to spot and kill submarines beyond visual >ranges. Nope not even possible they could not kill Subs. "beyond visual ranges, it was guns, bombs depth charges or rockets of the unguided (except by gunsight ) variety. Yahootie took Lots and lots of power was draggy and altogeather usless. >Yahootie returns? An advanced version of Yahootie, a robot >driven surveillance aircraft is reported to use a combination of >lights, low noise engines, and radar absorbing skin to render >itself practically invisible in daylight. The robot aircraft is >not only invisible to radar but its skin is layered with an >array of high intensity lights that broadcast the same output as >the sky around it. Fine, what about infrared - the problem as I recall with a Yahootie type system. >Still, what good is an invisible flying saucer without a ray >gun? The USAF is already working on the ABL or "Airborne Laser" >project. The concept is simple; mate a Boeing 747 with the most >powerful laser the huge airliner can carry. The result, >according to the Air Force, is a plane that can knock down >hostile ballistic missiles from hundreds of miles away. This is real - yes we are living what was dreamed of in "Star Trek, Buck Rodgers "et. al. >The ABL project is well under way toward an early test and looks >very promising. So promising that, according to Aviation Week >and Space Technology, the Russians have demanded they be allowed >to fly on- board any active ABL 747 to make sure it does not >target Russian missiles, in violation of the SALT treaties. >Russia has also been working for many years on laser projects. >The Defense Intelligence Agency recently made public drawings of >Russian anti-satellite and anti-missile laser systems in test. Oh, finally a named source! >However, it appears the U.S. Air Force is not too worried about >the Russians. Instead, the Air Force is keeping a budgetary >laser eye focused on the U.S. Marine Corps. The U.S. Marines, >ever quick to catch on, have proposed arming the new Joint >Strike Fighter with a laser weapon. The Air Force views the >Marine concept as a threat to the ABL budget. >It would seem that the only hostile actions between blue and >green are not extraterrestrials doing battle for control of the >earth, but military officers inside the Pentagon fighting over >budget figures. We know more about Mars than the black accounts >inside the Pentagon books. I am here to assure you there are no >UFOs; it's all a Hollywood fantasy and a CIA conspiracy. >So, The next time you see a UFO, don't look up; it's one of >ours. OK one of ours: Shiny mettalic disk, sliver, four white lights on the front, reddish orange lights around the rim and a blue light under the belly, moving slowly then fast at about 7:30 pm on a hot Eastern Oregon August night in1966 - clearly a U-2 Ha! GT McCoy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 13 UpDate: Re: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 01:00:05 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:28:53 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly - Sandow >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:11:30 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >Subject: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Hi everyone. >Below is a recent news article which reminds us that as far as >being able to identify the true origins of some peculiar rocks >and ultimately answers about our own origins, science is still >in Kindergarten. This is interesting in many ways. Thanks for posting it, Nick. I was struck by the first paragraph of the article: "Chemists at the University of California, San Diego have discovered an isotope anomaly previously thought unique to meteorites and other extraterrestrial rocks in sulfate minerals on Earth." This makes me think of Roger Leir, and the claim some people make that an alleged implant he'd studied had been proved to be extraterrestrial. Actually, the lab doing the analysis had only commented that the substance seemed similar to material found in meteorites. So now we learn that one isotope formerly thought only to occur in meteorites can also be found on earth. Which helps remind us that the analysis was very preliminary, and didn't prove anything one way or another. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 13 UpDate: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - Rudiak From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 02:13:07 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:31:34 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - Rudiak >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:47:52 +0100 >Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:16:42 -0400 >Subject: UpDate: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? >This may be of interest: >Source: WorldNetDaily >http://www.worldnetdaily.com/ >Wednesday, July 12, 2000 >Little green men or the Air Force? >by Charles Smith >The Freedom of Information Act is wonderful when it comes to >unexplained reports of extraterrestrial visits. The Federation >of American Scientists, a Washington-based science advocacy >group, recently discovered through the Freedom of Information >Act that reports of UFO activity also corresponded with the >flights of top- secret American spy aircraft. >In the 1960s, the Central Intelligence Agency and the U.S. Air >Force worked very hard to generate UFO cover stories for secret >aircraft. The result was a hysterical joke on the world that >echoes through to this day. >Keep in mind; this was during the height of the Cold War when >the USA and USSR were on the verge of nuclear combat. The >aircraft involved were certainly alien with their incredible >performance. The silver long-winged U-2 aircraft could fly 14 >miles high and stay aloft for hours, while the blackened, >delta-shaped SR-71 could fly even higher at speeds exceeding >2,000 miles an hour. Well let's see. Question: Were the U-2 and SR-71 designed to spy on the gullible U.S. public or the Russians? Answer: That's right -- the Russians. What's the point of generating UFO cover stories for your secret aircraft to fool the American public? Question: So the CIA tries to make the Russians think that our spy planes are really UFOs. Now think about this. Would this really work? Answer: It might only work if the Russians strongly believed in UFOs already. Otherwise this is useless as a cover strategy. If the Russians didn't believe in UFOs as something distinctly different from human craft, you might as well try to pass off a U-2 or SR-71 as Santa Claus and his flying reindeer. Question: Would the vast Russian military and intelligence complex strongly believe in UFOs in the 1960s? Answer: Not bloody likely, unless they had collected very impressive evidence of their reality. This is now 15-20 years after the European ghost rockets of 1946 and the great UFO wave of 1947. What this all comes down to is that UFOs can be used as some sort of useful cover if and only if the other side believes in them for some damned good reason. Skeptical arguments (often advanced by James Oberg, e.g.) that BOTH the U.S. and Russia used UFOs as covers for their secret projects if taken to their obvious logical conclusion are tacit admissions that both the U.S. and Russian firmly believed in the reality of UFOs. One final point: Question: Historically is their any evidence that the Russians mistook U-2's or SR-71's for anything other than U.S. spy planes? Answer: Certainly none that I know of. What history of this I have read is that the Russians were well aware of the U-2 overflights in the late 1950's, but because of the U-2's great speed and altitude they weren't initially able to bring it down. Then came 1959 and the U-2 flight of Francis Gary Powers, brought down by a Russian anti-aircraft missile. Does our brilliant Mr. Smith think that the Russians thought they had shot down a flying saucer and captured an alien? And this wasn't even the 1960's yet. David Rudiak
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 13 UpDate: "Who's There?" From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:33:38 -0400 Subject: UpDate: "Who's There?" This is an essay on UFOs that's been languishing on my website: Who's There? A Rundown of Theories Used to Account for the UFO Phenomenon by Mac Tonnies Extraterrestrial Hypothesis (ETH) UFOs could be spacecraft from another planet or from various planets. Astronomical theory allows for a great number of advanced (spacefaring) civilizations; perhaps the ETH, the most popularly accepted explanation for the UFO phenomenon, is also the correct one. Aerial Organisms? It's been suggested that some UFOs might be living creatures, traversing our skies much how jellyfish or squid travel the oceans. These bio-UFOs could have evolved on Earth (unlikely) or they could originate on another planet, or perhaps even in particularly abundant stellar nebulae. This theory doesn't account for the phenomenon's myriad complexities, but it illustrates how wide open the UFO inquiry really is. Jungian Hypothesis In this scenario, UFOs and their occupants are actually elaborate fantasy constructs projected into the material world as part of a "collective unconscious," perhaps exploiting our species' basest anxieties and hopes. That the modern era of sightings started shortly after the detonation of atomic weapons may not be coincidental. The problem, of course, with the Jungian perspective is the phenomenon's ability to invade the physical world as well as that of the mind. This dichotomy unsettled Jung himself and continues to frighten away scientists convinced that reality is essentially understandable under existing paradigms. Gaian Hypothesis Like the Jungian scenario, the Gaian hypothesis implies the existence of a "networked" planetary consciousness. The most striking divergence from Jung's theory is that the Gaian collective unconscious operates symbiotically with humanity, using individuals as "oracles" and not the participants they naturally sense themselves to be. It should be noted that a recurring motif in abduction accounts is the "warning of impending eco-catastrophe." The abduction experience makes a degree of sense if taken as the voice of a planetary consciousness operating through an archetypical symbolic language. The "gray" aliens--emotionless, drone-like and emaciated--may represent a deep fear of what our own species is becoming under the repressed psychological burden of high-technological society. No wonder they are described as both wondrous and terrifying. Trans-Temporal Hypothesis The "aliens'" bipedal posture and other anthropoid characteristics invite the notion that "they" are "us"...removed by centuries or millennia. Presumed causal paradoxes aside, our distant descendents could very well find reasons for visiting us--so many that I won't begin to enumerate them in the space available. The "grays'" seeming fixation on human genetics may have a basis in reality; despite recent progress in genetic science, it's safe to assume that we in fact know profoundly little. The aliens could be involved in a careful, deliberate rejuvination of their own epoch, using homo sapien DNA as an ingredient. This theory, already a cliche in the "abduction" literature, is most often attributed to the ETH--which would make little sense if the aliens were based on a suitably non-terrestrial genetic alphabet. Multiversal Hypothesis By examining the morphology of close-encounters deep into history, researcher Jacques Vallee has volunteered the idea of a "multiverse" in which alien encounters are actually behavioral conditioning exercises staged by an unseen nonhuman intelligence. Vallee's ideas are some of the most intellectually invigorating of the hypotheses put forth to explain UFOs, and are best described in his books "Passport to Magonia" and "Dimensions." Vallee argues that the social and technological trappings of the close-encounter experience are infinitely subjective, and best understood in mythological terms. Thus encounters with succubi, fairies, sky-gods, etc. can be equated to whatever agency responsible for today's rash of apparant piloted extraterrestrial craft. Vallee's hypothesis was grossly misrepresented in Carl Sagan's "The Demon Haunted World," in which the author inferred that the folkloric references cited by Vallee had been presented as misinterpretations of physical, nuts-and-bolts flying craft. Of course, Vallee's perspective isn't nearly so pat. Its seeming inaccessability has deprived it the audience it deserves. I agree with at least one of Vallee's pivotal assertions: the extraterrestrial hypothesis simply isn't strange enough to account for the sightings made during the last century. The saucer-pilots may well be "aliens"...but aliens of a sort we haven't yet conditioned ourselves to comprehend. In fact, we may never be able to condition ourselves to "their" presence, as "they" will simply adopt to our changing cultural and gnostic perspectives. The Persinger Scenario Laurentian University professor Micheal Persinger suspects that close-encounters have a more accessable explanation. He posits that electromagnetic energy produced in the Earth's crust can induce remarkably consistent hallucinations that experiencers may equate with contact with aliens. Persinger has even built a computer-controlled electromagnetic chamber in hopes of validating his theories; test subjects have reported a "sense of presence" not unlike that described by victims of sleep paralysis (a novel brain state cited exhaustively by debunkers to explain "bedroom visitations"). Perhaps even more intriguing is the observation that UFO sightings increase before earthquakes. This is taken to a disquieting and plausible extreme by author Albert Budden ("UFOs: Psychic Close Encounters"), who hypothesizes than man-made EM radiation as well as tectonic stress have the ability to "signal link" with the brians of self-professed "abductees." He explains the abduction experience as the mind's attempt to maintain a stable identity in the face of acute organic crisis. A similar theory might help explain the near-death experience, as well as various "out-of-body" states. Quantum Mirror Hypothesis Sketched cryptically in Whitley Strieber's best-selling "Communion," this theory casts the aliens as a large-scale quantum manifestation, the act of observation somehow granting them reality. Likewise, humans would seem just as enigmatic and strange to them. Whatever the validity of the quantum hypothesis (which, admittedly, smacks of New Age gibberish), there is a body of testimony suggesting that the aliens aren't nearly as sagely and all-knowing as they are usually made out to be in science-fiction media. Abduction stories are replete with absurd episodes such as aliens displaying overt mystification with articles of clothing and other accessories. The entities encountered by Betty and Barney Hill appeared genuinely startled by the fact that Betty's teeth were removable while Barney's were not. Is this really the behavior one would expect of an inconceivably advanced alien race on an anthropological internship on Earth? Whitley Strieber describes at least two apparent aliens wearing ridiculously inept facsimiles of human attire as if in an attempt to "fit in." And then there is the story of the alien who clumsily tried to put on an abductee's high-heeled shoes, and yet another account in which an alien donned a cowboy hat in what might have been a misguided attempt to appear rural and unthreatening. In Perspective Or, of course, the UFO enigma may be a combination of any of the preceding theories (or theories undreampt). Stanton Friedman, an advocate of the ETH, takes the reasonable position that some UFOs are extraterrestrial spacecraft. Maybe...although it's difficult to imagine how this could be conclusively determined--even if the wreckage of a UFO was available for inspection. The crash at Roswell is a case in point. Granted that the recovered material was from unknown origin (and I'm not aware of any decisive prosaic explanation), who's to tell whether the material was a.) from another solar system, b.) from our own future, or c.) conjured up out of Vallee's multiverse as part of some unthinkable cosmic indoctrination...? Perhaps the simplest explanation for UFOs must be assumed to be the correct one. But who's to say what's "simple" in a field that has been roundly ignored by establishment? For our assumptions to be valid we need to know more about our universe and its intricacies...even if our journey takes us to unexplored levels of strangeness. ===== Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 239 E. Sea Independence, MO 64050 816-833-5910 http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 13 UpDate: Re: A New UFO 'Invasion' In Mexico? From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 01:28:09 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:35:27 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: A New UFO 'Invasion' In Mexico? >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:58:12 -0400 >From: Werner Walter <113236.1604@compuserve.com> >Subject: A New UFO 'Invasion' In Mexico? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >CNN�s "World View" is reporting that Mexico is undergoing a new >UFO-invasion. Does anyone know more about this...? >Werner Walter in Germany Dear Werner: I have not heard anything about any "UFO Invasion" in Mexico. There are sightings reported here and there of course, but there are credibility issues with some of the better publicized reports. I would try to contact CNN "World View" itself for more information. They must have some sort of website. One time, a "sightings" type TV program from Hollywood contacted me. They saw a few screens from my database software on a similar program. Their representative wanted me to map sightings from the great Porterville, CA UFO wave (middle 1990s) and provide some more case information. That turned out to be impossible, as I didn't have a single listing from Porterville for those years, not even junk reports. I cannot quote the exact words now, but the man on the phone indicated that this was OK , they would "find somebody else". Best wishes - Larry Hatch PS: I presume they did find somebody willing to play along; I never heard from them again.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 13 UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Friedman From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 07:31:03 -0300 Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:39:50 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Friedman >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:26:55 -0400 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >Subject: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:46:02 -0300 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... -. Friedman >>>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:45:24 -0400 >>>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >>>Subject: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >The problems are, restated from my last post: >1. We don't know where the documents came from. Provenance is >not demonstrated. That some documents may be cleaver, does not, >in fact, make them valid. >2. There is no connection yet found in the real world for an >such an organization as MJ-12. >I would add this: >3. All documents are photographs or photocopies. There are no >actual documents for anyone to examine. Photo/photocopies can >easily be subject to all kinds of monkey business. I am off to St. Louis so will only comment briefly:. 1. The Cutler Twining memo is _not_ a photocopy. Anybody can look at it, at the Archives It is a carbon copy on watermarked onionskin from the right vintage? Some of the new Cooper documents are originals but not really connected to MJ-12. 2. Is a document from Cutler to General Twining military? The real question is NSC material which seemed to have its own rules. Stan Friedman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 13 UpDate: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 28 From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:17:02 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:42:21 -0400 Subject: UpDate: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 28 Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor. <Masinaigan@aol.com> ========================== UFO ROUNDUP Volume 5, Number 28 July 13, 2000 Editor: Joseph Trainor CHUPACABRAS ATTACK RANCHES IN ARGENTINA Chupacabra attacks were reported in two areas of Argentina during June. The first attack was at the La Fuegina ranch, located 15 kilometers (9 miles) from Porvenir, a small city in the extreme south of Argentina. Porvenir is on the island of Tierra del Fuego about 1,300 kilometers (780 miles) south of Buenos Aires, the national capital. "Over 100 dead animals and dozens wounded were found on Tierra del Fuego in recent days." "The discovery was made by rancher Jose Levill Rios, who said the dead and dying sheep were found 15 kilometers from Porvenir, showing signs of having been attacked by some kind of animal. The strange thing about this case was that the animal produced no traces which pointed to the presence of dogs, foxes or game." "'Furthermore,' Levill added, 'it is unlikely that one of these animals may have done so massive an attack in such little time.'" "Knowledge of the situation came about on June 6, 2000 when the watchman of the La Fuegina ranch engaged in his customary reconnoitering of the premises in the early morning hours and came across 100 animals, 60 of them dead scattered across the range." This was the second mysterious mass death of sheep on Tierra del Fuego in a year. In July 1999, "forty dead sheep were found in barrio San Antonio near the Fuentes Martines Airport. First they found 24 of them, and six turned up later in very bad shape." Autopsies of the slain sheep were ordered by Julio Gomez, regional director of the Servicio Agricola y Ganado or SAG (Argentina's Agricultural and Livestock Service--J.T.) "Gomex added that he heard of the situation through third parties, and that (two other) cattle ranchers, Atilio Calcutta and Marino Mimica, who claimed having lost 22 and 4 animals respectively, had asked him to investigate." "In Julio Gomez's opinion, the surprising sheep deaths were exclusively due to the actions of wild dog packs which wander around Porvenir in large numbers and stray from the urban perimeter in search of food." (Editor's Comment: If this sounds familiar, read last month's issues of UFO Roundup and the government of Chile's explanation of the animal deaths in Calama and Chuquicamata.) Two weeks later, on Friday, June 23, 2000, five cats were found dead under very mysterious circumstances in the town of Maria Elena, south of Santiago del Estero, about 500 kilometers (300 miles) northwest of Buenos Aires. "All of the felines presented the same traces-- a large hole above the heart through which all of the blood had been estracted." "The residents (of Maria Elena) are frightened and would rather keep quiet about the information in their possession than have 'others think that we're cracy,' they said, turning around to avoid the cold breeze." (Editor's Note: (Right now it's mid-winter in Argentina and the other countries of the southern hemisphere.) "When they saw the carcass of the (first) dead cat, they were amazed." "'This cat is different, but it has the same hole-- it's entrails are exposed. It's as if the Chupacabra was about to eat it and took off,' suggested one resident who didn't want to give his name." "As the day progressed, more dead cats turned up== all of them with the same orifice." 'It's a supernatural creature because there isn't such an animal--much less a human being--able to inflict such a wound,' one resident said." "An examination provided shocking details--the cat had an orifice 5 centimeters (2 inches) in diameter through which the right lung had been extracted along with a portion of the left lung. Furthermore, all of the blood had been drained." On Saturday night, June 24, 2000, people at a disco in Maria Elena "heard strange sounds coming from outside the building," which they attributed to the Chupacabra. In the nearby town of Las Piscinas, "one of the witnesses who decided to come forward was Jorge Cariaga Gonzales. According to Cariaga, "last Saturday night (June 24), he got out of his car after having seen something strange. He was then able to confirm, as corroborated by his companions, that a large animal was climbing over a nearby fence 'like a monkey'. The troubled laborer also began smelling a nauseating odor which has become characteristic among those who claim to have seen the Chupacabra." "'It's something similar to a decomposing animal,' he said, indicating that he had had an overpowering urge to flee when at a diatance of 8 meters (25 feet) it uttered a horrifying scream." "A veterinarian performed an autopsy on one of the dead cats, and his analysis proved that the deaths of these animals was caused by no human phenomenon or animal attack." (See the newspapers La Prensa Austral of Punta Arenas, Chile for June 9, 2000 and La Estrella de Loa for June 29, 2000. Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales, auto de los libros Chupacabras and Other Mysteries y Forbidden Mexico y Gloria Coluchi para eses articulos de diario.) *Editor's Comment: Welcome to Creatures on the Loose Week at UFO Roundup. Chupacabra, Lobizon, Imps from Hell, Bigfoot--this week we've got them all!) LOBIZON BLOOD SAMPLE IS "NOT HUMAN," OFFICIALS SAY Elsewhere in Argentina, the town of Concepcion del Bermejo is still reeling from the appearance of the Lobizon (Spanish for werewolf--J.T.) two weeks ago. On Thursday, June 22, 2000, a strange creature described as half-wolf and half-human chased Marcelito Gomex, 11, who escaped from it by hopping onto a flatbed truck. Immediately his relatives, members of the Ovejero and Gomex families, rushed to his rescue. They cornered the creature in the house and beat it senseles with sticks, bricks and garden hoes. Thinking it dead, they left it tied to a tree. But the creature recovered consciousness and escaped. An hour later, it was seen at a local gas station by the attendant, Odilio Ponce. Since then, other residents of Concepcion del Bermejo claim to have seen the Lobizon. On Thursday, June 29, 2000, the Argentinian newspaper Norte suggested that residents may have seen a wild canine of the Pampas called the Aguera Guazu, noting that this animal "makes no noise whatsoever, has cinnamon and black streaked fur, soft footfalls, and moves in a very peculiar way, its hind legs larger than the rest of its body. It primarily feeds of fruit, supplemented by small rodents and birds, which it consumes whole." TThe following day, Friday, June 30, 2000, the results of the laboratory tests conducted on hair and blood samples taken from the scene by Deputy Sheriff de la Cruz were announced. However, these lab findings merely complicated the whole situation. According to Norte, laboatory technicians in an interview by telephone stated that the blood samples were "not corresponding to any human group" but added that there was "a lack of sufficient elements of elements to determine the type of animal to which the said sample might correspond." "Locl police" in Concepcion del Bermejo "are still in possession of 'several large yellow hairs' taken from whjere the animal was left for dead and tied to a tree." (See the newspaper Norte for June 29 and June 30, 2000. Tambien, gracias a Scott y Gloria para esa historia.) "IMPS FROM HELL" STALK TWO SMALL TOWNS IN ARGENTINA Two towns in north-central Argentina have reported apparitions of El Diablillo, an Imp from Hell. And in the most recent case, authorities closed a police substation as a result. On Wednesday, July 5, 2000, Argentinian police "closed the deputy sheriff's office" in Dande de Varela "and placed two agents on guard" after the police officer on duty reportedly saw an Imp appear. "Cabo (Corporal) Miguel Angel Aguero was hospitalized yesterday morning (July 5) in a state of shock, having been given a nervous breakdown by zan apparition of an Imp or dwarf which allegedly appeared in the substation." "Corp. Aguero, 37, being ten years in the service and a champion marathon runner in the province, was found unconscious and seated in a chair, with his eyes wide open and staring at the ceiling. When his colleagues tried to bring him around, he started screaming, 'There! There it is! It's come to get me!' pointing into the air." Corp. Aguero was alone in the station at about 1 a.m. After performing a routine walk-through of the vacant cellblock, he returned to his office. Then he heard something come through the double doors behind him. "'What do you want?' the agent said, petrified with fear." "'I have come for thee on Satan's behalf,' it replied." Later, at the hospital, Aguero described the entity in detail, saying, "It was a person; I don't know if it was a man, with red eyes, very red eyes. Its face was deformed and horrible with warts. It was about as tall as my waistline and wore filthy black pants and a green shirt. Its eyes were red and bulging. Horrible!" According to the police report, at 1:30 a.m. on Wednesday, July 5, 2000, following three unsuccessful attempts to establish radio contact by means of the Centrex system with the substation in Dande de Carela, a police cruiser, Unit Alfa-3, was dispatched "to ascertain Corporal Aguero's situation." The investigating officers found Aguero and then summoned an ambulance. After being apprised of the situation, police chief Domingo Celestino Martell ordered the substation closed and posted two armed guards on the premises. The other Diablillo sighting took place on Saturday night, April 17, 2000, in the town of Frias, 270 kilometers (162 miles) north of Cordoba.. "A police officer was traveling home along the Plazoleta Alfonso de la Vega. Then he saw a petiso (little person--J.T.) he took for a child. The policeman reprimanded the youngster for being outdoors at such a late hour, but in response received a menacing look from its fiery red eyes, which were described by others persons in the same city. Gripped by fear, the policemen lowered his gaze and continued walking." El Diablillo "is one of the most widely-believed mythological figures in Argentinian folklore. Its apparitions are common and it is always described the same way--dark clothes and penetrating red eyes." (See the newspaper El Ancasti for July 6, 2000. Tambien, muchas gracias a Scott y Gloria para esas noticias.) BIGFOOT TRACKS FOUND NEAR PORT ANGELES, WASHINGTON Several Bigfoot tracks were found on the Lower Hoh Indian Reservation, near Port Angeles (population 18,000) in Washington state. The tracks were discovered by two local men, Gene Sampson and Steven Penn. Port Angeles is on the Strait of Jaun de Fuca about 85 miles (136 kilometers) west of Seattle. The discovery brought two leading Bigfoot researchers into the area: Dr. Jeffrey Meldrum of Idaho State University and Cliff Crook, a longtime tracker of the legendary man-beast and editor of the journal Bigfoot Trails. Dr. Meldrum, assistant professor of anatomy and biology at Idaho State University, "concluded that there was not enough factual evidence to continue an investigation." "'Our general take was that there was something going on on their properties but it was not attributable to research of Bigfoot that we have done in the past,' Dr. Meldrum said." "Meldrum's crew did a thorough search of the land, looking for any physical signs of Bigfoot such as hair and footprints." Cliff Crook, however, believes that the tracks are genuine. "Crook, who was on the scene a day before Meldrum, said he found many clues leading him to believe the tracks were creeated by a Bigfoot, or Sasquatch, a large hairy creature that has been reported around the world but is most closely identified with the (USA's) Pacific Northwest." "'I was expecting to find bear tracks, but on June 30, my initial investigation led me to believe that this was not a bear or a human prankster. This was for sure a Bigfoot,' Crook told the Peninsula Daily News." "On (Friday) June 30 (2000), he added one more track from the Lower Hoh reservation along the Pacific coast in the extreme northwest of Washington state." "'This year we already have 19 reports from the Pacific Northwest alone. Of them, we have thoroughly investigated nine of them and learned a lot,' Crook said." "Crook estimated that the animal on the Hoh Indian Reservation stood eight feet (2.4 meters tall), with feet 17 inches (42.5 centimeters) long and 7 inches (17.5 centimeters) wide. With the imprint that was left in the ground, he estimated the weight to be about 600 pounds." "Crook, 59, is editor of the journal Bigfoot Trails. He is a Bigfoot tracker, a Sasquatch detective, an assembler of 400 plaster footprints. He and his wife Carol teamed as technical advisors for the Bigfoot film Harry and the Hendersons." (See the Peninsula Daily News of Port Angeles, Wash. for July 6, 2000, "Biologist and Bigfoot researcher disagree on strength of Bigfoot Evidence." Many thanks to Steve Wilson Sr. for this newspaper article.) UFOs APPEAR AGAIN OVER TROUT LAKE, WASHINGTON Twice last week UFOs appeared over the ranch owned by James Gilliland in Trout Lake, Washington (population 400), a small town on Highway 141 about 40 miles (64 kilometers) northeast of Portland, Oregon. According to eyewitness John M. Novak, on Monday, June 26, 2000, at 11:30 p.m., "I caught sight out of the corner of my eye a bright white flash almost directly above me and four other people present. Several seconds later I saw another flash at the same spot at what appeared to be a very high altitude. The flash went off another two or three times in an irregular pattern, when I saw what looked like smaller, dimmer white lights zooming back and forth (east to west and west to east--J.M.N.) at an extremely high altitude for about two to three seconds.. It actually looked like bursts of laser beams being shot back and forth, contained within a small square of stars that was just a bit larger than my fist at arm's length." Novak's eight-year-old son also witnessed the phenomenon, he added, and "I can tell you, this event really upset him, and it took me several hours of talking to him to alleviate his fears of an 'alien invasion force.' destroying the planet. (He had been reading the book Titan A.E. before this happened--J.M.N.)" A short while later, Novak added, "The single white flashing light lit up again and did so several times over the next minute or so. We then saw two very bright golden-white lights coming from the west at a pace of what looked like twice the speed of most satellites." The UFO's "were seen flying right through the space where all the activity had taken place. Those two lights did not flash the whole time we watched them." On Saturday, July 1, 2000, at 10:02 p.m., twelve witnesses at the Gilliland ranch, including Novak, "saw a bright golden-white light come from almost due south heading north. It was coming almost straight towards us. It appeared to be at an altitude of more than the passenger airliners fly (33,000 feet or 10,000 meters--J.T.) When it was nearly over the (Gilliland) ranch, it began a slow turn and headed due east. Two of the eyewitnesses were able to get it on video. One witness shot it on 35mm film. The light was very large in comparison to stars or satellites." Later that evening, at 11:40 p.m., "approximately eight to ten of us from the group saw another golden-white light at low-altitude flying from west to east over Mount Adams. When it was just about due north of us, it flared up in size and brilliance and had a blue aura around it that lasted for about three to four seconds. It then flew off at the same speed to the east. This one was caught on two different video cameras, including the one I was using, which was able to pick up the blue color that came off of it." (Many thanks to Steve Wilson Sr. for this report.) MYSTERY METEOR SEEN OVER HARTSVILLE, SOUTH CAROLINA On Saturday, June 24, 2000, at about 11 p.m., Heather M. and her friend "were in the pool" when "out of the corner of my eye, I saw what I thought was a shooting star. When I saw it through the corner of my eye, I believe it was heading east, then turned north, and by the time I got my head turned around, it was going east again." "I believe it had been going for a while before I saw it over my right shoulder." "The thing I saw ws going faster than anything I've ever seen before and was about the size of a pinpoint but shiny white. It didn't have a tail, and I can't tell if it burned out or not because it flew behind some pine trees." Heather added that "nobody believes what I saw" except for her mother, who sighted a UFO in 1992. Hartsville, S>C. (population 8,400) is on South Carolina Highway 15 about 45 miles (72 kilometers) northeast of Columbia, the state capital. (Email Interview) HOVERING UFO SPOTTED IN DAIRYLAND, WISCONSIN On Monday, July 3, 2000, at 10 p.m., eyewitness Edward P. and a small group of friends were camped out in a wooded area near the Ratigan Dam in Dairyland, Wisconsin (population 40) when they spotted a UFO hovering nearby. "Two of the friends went for a walk a little after dark, only to come back and get me. They brought me a very short distance from our (camp) site and asked me what I saw." "About a half-mile away, maybe further, we saw two levels of lights, one at the lower portion of the distant tree line, the other closer to the top of the trees. It didn't look like fog, and we could barely make out the trees near the lighted areas. Shortly after that, we walked back to our site." "While talking about the lights" with their other friends, Edward added, "I noticed a very distant light in the sky, moving very quickly. I called to my friends to check this out, as there were no blinking lights like an airplane would make. We watched the circle of light move from east to west very fast, and then it stopped for just a split-second, and then sped away, either out of the atmosphere or just out of our general space." Dairyland, Wis. is just east of the Minnesota state line and is located about 40 miles (64 kilometers) due south of the twin ports of Duluth, Minnesota and Superior, Wisconsin. (Many thanks to Jim Aho of the W-Files for this report.) (Editor's Note: Northwestern Wisconsin has long been a UFO hotspot here in the USA.) MAN VIDEOTAPES A UFO OVER GLOUCESTER, UK "Gloucester resident Richard Lewis has caught an unidentified flying object on video." "Mr. Lewis, who lives in the city, contacted (the newspaper) This Is Gloucestershire about the sighting on (Tuesday) June 27, 2000." "He said, 'I saw two objects in the sky in a south-southwesterly direction from my home near Gloucester centre. The objects were, I estimate, 30 miles (48 kilometers) distant and at a height (altitude) of more than 10,000 feet (3,000 meters)." At first he thought the objects were some kind of air balloons, but they began to move apart in different directions, indicating some kind of powered movement." "Mr. Lewis said, 'Despite the apparent distance, the objects were intensely black.'" "'I can't figure out why they disappeared from view, as there was only a single high cloud near to the objects in an otherwise clear sky. I would estimate they were above the Newnham/Forest of Dean area." (See This Is Gloucestershire for June 28, 2000. Many thanks to Louise Lowry for forwarding the newspaper article.) from the UFO Files... 1907: WHAT THE BISHOP SAW Forty years before Roswell, at a time when there were less than five airplanes in the USA, i.e. on July 2, 1907, a UFO exploded over the midtown area of Burlington, Vermont, a port on Lake Champlain and the largest city in the Green Mountain State. Hundreds heard the explosion and rushed to see what it was. But only a handful of eyewitnesses actually saw the mystery object. Their 1907 testimony is reproduced below. The testimonies were collected by William H. Alexander, Burlington's weather forecaster. He thought it was an unusual cawe of "ball lightning." He wrote, "Without doubt one of the most unusual electrical phenomena known to the writer occurred at Burlington on the (July) 2nd...The 'explosion' was so sudden, so unexpected that it startled practically the entire city and there was a general, spontaneous rush to the window or street to see what had happened." Here are the eyewitness accounts: Bishop John S. Michaud: "I was standing on the corner of Church and College Streets, just in front of the Howard Bank and facing east, engaged in conversation with Ex-Governor (Alexander) Woodbury and Mr. A.A. Buell, when, without the slightest indication or warning we were startled by what sounded like a most unusual and terrific explosion, evidently very near by." "Raising my eyes and looking eastward along College Street, I observed a torpedo-shaped body some 300 feet away, stationary in appearance and suspended in the air about 50 feet above the tops of the buildings. In size it was about six feet long by eight inches in diameter, the shell cover having a dark appearance, with here and there tongues of fire issuing from spots on the surface resembling red-hot unburnished copper." "Although stationary when first noticed, this object soon began to move, rather slowly, and disappeared over Dolan Brothers' store (corner of College and Mechanic Streets--J.T.), southward. As it moved, the covering seemed rupturing in places and through these the intensely red flames issued." "My first impression was that it was some explosive shot from the upper portion of the Hall Furniture Store (corner of College and Center Streets--J.T.) When first seen, it was surrounded by a halo of dim light, some 20 feet in diameter. There was no odor that I am aware of perceptible after the dis appearance of the phenomenon, nor was there any damage done so far as was known to me." "Although the sky was entirely clear overhead, there was an angry-looking cumulo-nimbus cloud approaching from the norhwest; otherwise there was absolutely nothing to lead us to expect anything so remarkable." "And, strange to say, although the downpour of rain following this phenomenon, perhaps twenty minutes later, lasted at least half an hour, there was no indication of any other flash of lightning or sound of thunder." "Four weeks have passed since the occurrence of this event, but the picture of that scene and the terrific concussion caused by it, are vividly before me, while the crashing sound still rings in my ears. I hope I may never hear or see a similar phenomenon, at least at such "close range." Alvaro Adsit: "I was standing in my store (Ferguson and Adsit's Store, on the corner of College and Mechanic Streets across from Dolan Brothers--J.T.) facing the north. My attention was attracted by this 'ball of fire' apparently descending toward a point on the opposite side of the street in front of the Hall Furniture Store, when within 18 or 20 feet of the ground, the ball exploded with a deafening sound. The ball, before the explosion, was apparently 8 or 10 inches in diameter; the halo of light resulting from the explosion was was 8 or 10 feet in diameter; the light had a yellowish tinge, somewhat like a candle light; no noise or sound was heard before or after the explosion; no damage was done so far as is known to me." W.P. Dodds: "I saw the 'ball' just before the explosion. It was moving apparently from the northwest (over the Howard Bank Building--W.P.D.) and gradually descending. I did not see it at the moment of the explosion of afterward; no damage resulted so far as known to me." (Editor's Note: Dodds was at work at the Equitable Life Insurance Building on the south side of College Street when the explosion occurred.) So what really happened in downtown Burlington, Vermont just before noontime on July 2, 1907? Did a hovering UFO destroy a malfunctioning probe? Did hostile aliens fire a photon torpedo at the Hall Furniture Store? The Burlington "UFO explosion" of 1907 remains one of the strangest cases in the annals of ufology. (See the Monthly Weather Review for July 1907, "A Possible Czse of Ball Lightning," page 310.) That's it for this week. Join us in seven days for more UFO and paranormal news from around the planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup." See you then. UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2000 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on their websites or in newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared. ********************************************************* IMPORTANT Please Read: ====================== The Hunger Site --------------- http://www.thehungersite.com Every 3.6 seconds somebody starves to death. 3/4 of the deaths are children under 5. By visiting the Hunger Site and clicking on a button you can donate free food. There is absolutely no charge to you for the donation - the food is paid for by sponsors. Do this once a day (no more) and help make a difference! If you have a web site download a banner and give a link! ********************************************************* E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com> or use the Sighting Report Form at: http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com> UFOINFO: http://ufoinfo.com Official Archives of the UK UFO Network Bulletin, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine also available, plus archives of Filer's Files.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 13 UpDate: Re: A New UFO 'Invasion' In Mexico? - Corrales From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 19:19:02 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:44:49 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: A New UFO 'Invasion' In Mexico? - Corrales >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:58:12 -0400 >From: Werner Walter <113236.1604@compuserve.com> >Subject: A New UFO 'Invasion' In Mexico? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >CNN�s "World View" is reporting that Mexico is undergoing a new >UFO-invasion. Does anyone know more about this...? >Werner Walter in Germany Mexico has indeed had more intense UFO activity lately, but nothing compared to the early '90s. I did not see the CNN report, but I have a feeling that it concerns a major television broadcast on Televisa 2 nights ago concerning the February 14 2000 Azcapotzalco CE2K. The program pitted "skeptics" versus "believers" -- a technique that has been successfully used in that country since talk show host Nino Canun first employed it in 1991. The opposite sides are kept in two separate rooms and the moderator runs from one to another. Best regards, Scott Corrales Director, Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU) www.inexplicata.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 13 UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Kaeser From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:05:12 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:11:20 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Kaeser >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:17:33 -0400 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Fortunately there are real, traceable documents which provide an >eye-opening view of the history of early Air Force activities... >see "The UFO - FBI Connection". Very good point, and one that deserves to be made. There are literally thousands of pages of FOIA documents that have already been analyzed by researchers, and Bruce's latest work does an admirable job of pulling out significant documents and painting a picture of the early days of "official" UFO investigations. Another paper that should not be overlooked is Michael Sword's "Project Sign and the Estimate of the Situation". Details can be found at http://www.cufos.org/jufosnew.html#JUFOS_NS_VOL7. There are still gaps in our knowledge as to exactly what took place and why, and some of those issues may be resolved as newly released documents surface. But this research has, to a great extent, shown how we have gotten to where we are today, which I believe is helpful. Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 13 UpDate: Hundreds of Mexicans Have Seen UFOs Recently From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:22:50 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:38:42 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Hundreds of Mexicans Have Seen UFOs Recently HUNDREDS OF MEXICANS CLAIM HAVING SEEN UFOS MEXICO, Jul 11 (AFP)- Mexico City Airport's control tower futilely scanned the skies over the city yesterday for three UFOS which wer allegedly seen by hundreds of onlookers over a downtown area. According to sources from the air traffic control tower, Proteccion Civil (Civil Defense) transmitted numerous phone calls from people rporting the presence of UFOs over Paseo de la Reforma and neighboring areas. Efforts aimed at detecting the objects on radar screens proved fruitless. ========================================== Dear Friends, This reminds me of the banner headlines which appeared in Mexico's El EXCELSIOR newspaper back in 1991: "PLATILLERA SICOSIS!!" (Saucer Madness!) as people mistook silver balloons for UFOs due to the expectations created by a number of TV and print events. Times never change. Scott Corrales Director, Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU) www.inexplicata.com ======================================== SOURCE: http://www.elmiamiherald.com/ Updated at 8:16 a.m. EDT, Thursday, July 13, 2000: ONLOOKERS MISTAKE BALLOONS FOR UFOs IN MEXICO MEXICO DF, Jul 12 (Reuters) --Hundreds of onlookers took to the streets on Wednesday in a prestigious district of the mexican capital to witness the alleged UFOs which later proved to be nothing more than silver balloons. Passerby and office workers perched on rooftops in Polanco looked long and hard at the sky at what initially appeared to be visitors from outer space. "I saw luminous dots in the sky," stated one bystander on Paseo de la Reforma, one of the capital's busiest avenues. "They were at an altitude of some 10,000 meters." Radio stations received dozens of telephone calls reporting UFO sightings. Fact was less interesting than speculation. "The problem is that we have an event going on at a hotel and the decor consists of silver balloons," said Elsa Margaona, the event's organizer, to one of the television stations. "When it came time to inflate them, some of them inevitably got away, since it's an open-air event." Translation (c) 2000. Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU) Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 13 UpDate: Re: NIDS Prompts Speculation - Lovett From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:44:21 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 13:11:08 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: NIDS Prompts Speculation - Lovett >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:21:10 -0700 (PDT) >From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com> >Subject: NIDS Prompts Speculation >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Greetings list - >From: http://www.canoe.ca/EdmontonNews/es.es-07-12-0012.html >Shadowy agency prompts speculation >By DOUG BEAZLEY, EDMONTON SUN >Wednesday, July 12, 2000 >A rich-as-God real estate magnate with his own private jet can >go just about anywhere he wants, whenever he wants - including >North Battleford, Sask., in high August. <snip> >In 1996, Bigelow sent a team of researchers to a Utah ranch >which reportedly had been the site of a range of bizarre >phenomena: UFOs the size of football fields, circular doorways >appearing in midair, floating balls of light incinerating family >pets. He bought out the owners on the condition that they keep >mum about whatever they'd seen. >"Personally, it's not the way I feel science should be done," >said Dr. Jim Butler, a U of A biologist with an interest in the >paranormal. "Because of the secrecy, a lot of conspiracy >theories get built up around NIDS." >Like maybe Bigelow's building his own flying saucer? >"I wouldn't put it past him," said Butler, laughing. >Colm Kelleher's heard most of the conspiracy theories himself. >He's a researcher at NIDS with a resume that includes a >biochemistry doctorate from the University of Dublin. >He said NIDS is working on some explosive theories about UFOs >and cattle mutilation they're in no hurry to publish. >"The authentic mutilations are not done by predators," he said. >"The cuts show the use of surgical instruments and techniques. >We have no indication it's being done by aliens. >"People keep saying we're a CIA front, we're the Men in Black. >We're just prudent. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary >proof. Right now the UFO field is 95% speculation and fantasy, >5% data of very poor quality. This is why these phenomena are >still ridiculed by the media. >"And no, we are not (building a UFO)." Blair, Have you ever watched the film "Contact"? Many characters in that film are based on real persons, even if that was not done so clearly in the book. I always had a feeling that the super rich guy who ended up funding "the machine" in that film was based loosely on Bigelow. If you haven't seen it, or recently, watch it again and compare the personality and reputation of that guy to what we know about Bigelow. Of course these are just my speculative thoughts, guess only the screen writers know for sure who they based the characters on! Diane
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 13 UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Klotz From: Jim Klotz <jimklotz@foxinternet.net> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:35:32 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 13:16:35 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Klotz >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:26:55 -0400 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >Subject: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:46:02 -0300 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... <snip> >>I had pointed out that the "My Dear Carl >>Letter", supposedly from Marshall to Carl Humelsine was a take >>off on the famous letter from Marshall to Dewey. I had discussed >>this item with Dr. Larry Bland, sent him a copy and fully agreed >>with his conclusions as noted in TOP SECRET/MAJIC. <snip> >Dr. Bland gives you credit for bringing this to his attention. >The discussion of this document and Dr. Bland's conclusion use >to be on the Internet. I wanted to include a pointer in my post, >but the webpage appears to be gone. We've had that material on CUFON for some time. Somehow I left it out when I updated the "CUFON Other Documents" directory page. This material may be viewed at: http://www.cufon.org/cufon/marshall.htm Jim Klotz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 14 UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:11:42 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:51:37 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Maccabee >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 22:53:20 -0400 (EDT) >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >Subject: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? >To: updates@sympatico.ca >You know, this is almost a classic description of a Fata Morgana >mirage. They can look like bridges and arches. Fata Morgana >mirages sometimes have motions, too. He was flying more or less >at right angles to the view. I know that this is a very old >proferred explanation, but I just threw it out for fun. Actually mountain top mirage is the official AF explanation Problem: mountain top mirages stay over the mountain tops. Also the angular spread of observation is far to great (far left to far right) Mirages are not noted for creating bright flashes of light. Smile!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 14 UpDate: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:07:34 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:51:10 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - Maccabee >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:47:52 +0100 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >This may be of interest: >Source: WorldNetDaily >http://www.worldnetdaily.com/ >Wednesday, July 12, 2000 >Little green men or the Air Force? >by Charles Smith >The Freedom of Information Act is wonderful when it comes to >unexplained reports of extraterrestrial visits. The Federation >of American Scientists, a Washington-based science advocacy >group, recently discovered through the Freedom of Information >Act that reports of UFO activity also corresponded with the >flights of top- secret American spy aircraft. >In the 1960s, the Central Intelligence Agency and the U.S. Air >Force worked very hard to generate UFO cover stories for secret >aircraft. The result was a hysterical joke on the world that >echoes through to this day. > >Keep in mind; this was during the height of the Cold War when >the USA and USSR were on the verge of nuclear combat. The >aircraft involved were certainly alien with their incredible >performance. The silver long-winged U-2 aircraft could fly 14 >miles high and stay aloft for hours, while the blackened, >delta-shaped SR-71 could fly even higher at speeds exceeding >2,000 miles an hour. Another belated discovery of a stupid CIA theory first published several years ago. As antidote, see below: _____ CIA'S UFO EXPLANATION IS PREPOSTEROUS by Bruce Maccabee June 3, 1997 The CIA recently published an article that describes its involvement in the history of UFO phenomena. (The article is published in the unclassified version of "Studies in Intelligence," a twice-yearly CIA journal.) According to historian and author Jerry Haines, the CIA believed that when the U-2 high altitude spy plane began flying in early August, 1955, "commercial pilots and air traffic controllers began reporting a large increase in UFO sightings." The U-2 is the high altitude spy plane made famous by the 1960 shootdown of Gary Powers as he flew over the Soviet Union and by photos of Russian missile sites in Cuba during the "Cuban Missile Crisis." Mr. Haines has written, "According to later estimates from CIA officials who worked on the U-2 project and the OXCART (SR-71 or Blackbird) project, over half of all UFO reports from the late 1950's through the 1960's were accounted for by manned reconnaissance flights (namely the U-2) over the United States. This led the Air Force to make misleading and deceptive statements to the public in order to allay public fears and to protect an extraordinarily sensitive neational security project. While perhaps justified, this deception added fuel to the later conspiracy theories and the coverup controversy of the 1970's. The percentage of what the Air force considered unexplained UFO sightings fell to 5.9 percent in 1955 and to 4 percent in 1956." This explanation for many ("over half of all") UFO reports is new in the sense that it has never before been publicized. It was not contained within documents released by the CIA in December, 1978 after a lawsuit filed under the Freedom of Information and Privacy Act (FOIPA) by Ground Saucer Watch, a civilian UFO organization which closed in the early 1980's. According to Mr. Haines the U-2 was reported as a UFO because "the early U-2's were silver (they were later painted black) and reflected the rays of the sun, especially at sunrise and sunset. They often appeared as fiery objects to observers below. Air Force BLUE BOOK investigators, aware of the secret U-2 flights, tried to explain away such sightings by linking them to natural phenomena such as ice crystals and temperature inversions. By checking with the Agency's U-2 Project Staff in Washington, BLUE BOOK investigators were able to attribute many UFO sightings to U-2 flights. They were careful, however, not to reveal the true cause of the sighting to the public." Project BLUE BOOK was the publicly known Air Force effort to collect UFO sightings and explain, or at least categorize, them as explainable or unexplainable. Project Blue Book ran from early 1951 through 1969. When it closed Blue Book and its predecessors (Project Sign, 1948, and Project Grudge, 1949-1951) had collected about 13,000 sightings, of which about 700 were left unexplained. The claim that the U-2 caused "over half of all UFO reports from the late 1950's through the 1960's" is, to put it gently, preposterous. The U-2, with its 80 ft long by 6 ft wide (front to back) wingspan flew at 60-70,000 feet and at that altitude was essentially invisible during the day. It created no contrail because of the lack of moisture at that altitude. It was, after all, intended to be invisible! During the hour before sunrise and the hour following sunset it would be possible for an unpainted aircraft to reflect the sun enough to be visible, perhaps with a reddish glow resulting from the reddening of sunlight (caused by passage of the sunlight through the atmosphere, which acts like a filter that removes blue and green relative to red). High altitude balloons (e.g., Project Skyhook) did cause some UFO reports during these times of day and were so identified by the Air Force and civilian investigators. However, only a small fraction of sightings occur during these times. The largest fraction of sightings is at night when the U-2 can't be seen and the next largest fraction is during the daytime. A check of the Project Blue Book sighting statistics, which includes sightings by pilots and air traffic controllers as well as by military personnel and civilians, shows the following: for July, 1955 there were 89 reports and for August there were 67. These numbers are the sum of explained and unexplained sightings and so, presumably, include U-2 sightings, if any. These numbers show that the sighting rate **diminished** just as the U-2 started flying. The Blue Book record shows about 316 sightings in the 6 months before the U-2 and about 326 in the six months afterward. Not much change over this longer time period. Mr. Haines has pointed out that the percent unexplained fell from 5.9% in 1955 to 4% in 1956, with the implication that this decrease was a result of more explained U-2 sightings. If we assume that the increase in sightings from 316 to 326, mentioned above, was caused by the U-2, then the U-2 could acount for about 100 x (10/320) = 3% of the sightings in the 6 months following. Hence these statistics do not bear out the claim that there was a large increase in sightings by any segment of the population, pilots and air traffic controllers included, once the U-2 aircraft started flying. Statistics based on a different set of data are contained within the "U Database" of over 14,000 sightings by Larry Hatch (Larry Hatch Software, 142 Jeter St., Redwood City, CA 94025-1957). This excellent PC based software provides statistics that are based on unexplained sightings recorded by Project BLUE BOOK and by other organizations (civilian UFO groups). If Project BLUE BOOK investigators explained some sightings as the U-2, these sightings would not appear in the list of unexplained Blue Book sightings and hence would not be included in this database. On the other hand, the far larger collection of non-Blue Book sightings in this database could include U-2 sightings, if the CIA is correct, that were not identified by civilian investigators who were unaware of the U-2's existence and hence a comparison of the sighting statistics before and after U-2 flights started could provide evidence that the U-2 was being reported as a UFO. In this database I find the following: YEAR/MONTH Ja Fe Ma Ap Ma Ju Ju Au Sep Oc Nov De TOTAL 1953 ------------------------------------------------ 188 1954 13 13 12 17 25 28 18 14 18 4 15 10 187 1955 11 8 9 4 12 11 30 29 12 13 12 6 157 1956 10 11 7 5 13 20 33 43 9 6 12 3 174 1957 3 6 7 3 6 5 12 7 9 10 110 11 189 1958 5 0 4 8 3 5 2 8 4 12 6 1 58 As one can see from the above table, there is scant evidence of a jump in sighting rate following the first flight of the U-2 on Aug. 4, 1955. The surprising jump in November, 1957 is coincident with the "Sputnik flap" which occurred just after Sputnik 2 was launched. (This flap is noted for the large number of close-range car-stopping events. Most of the sightings were not sightings of Sputnik itself.) An even more telling set of statistics uses the sightings which occurred near sunrise or sunset when, according to Mr. Haines, the U-2 would have appeared as a shiny or fiery bright spot in the sky. TIME 0400 to 0700 (which encompasses the time before sunrise) (With a time window this wide we get an overestimate of the number of sightings just before sunrise since the time of sunrise varies during the year.) August 1955 is noted by *_*. YEAR/MONTH 1953 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 5 1954 0 0 1 0 0 2 1 1 2 0 0 0 7 1955 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 *2* 1 1 1 0 7 1956 0 1 0 1 1 2 6 2 1 0 1 0 15 1957 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 13 1 19 1958 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 TIME 1700 to 2100 (which encompasses the time after sunset) (With a time window this wide we get an overestimate of the number of sightings just after sunset since local sunset time varies during the year.) YEAR/MONTH NUMBER TOTAL 1953 9 3 2 1 2 3 2 4 6 2 7 3 44 1954 3 2 0 5 5 8 5 2 4 2 4 0 40 1955 5 3 3 0 5 0 10 *7* 2 4 5 2 46 1956 5 1 2 2 2 2 6 12 2 0 3 0 37 1957 0 2 0 0 0 1 0 3 1 2 26 3 38 1958 1 0 1 2 1 0 1 1 2 0 1 0 10 Clearly there is no statistical support for a sudden increase in the number of sightings at sunrise or sunset when the U-2 started flying. In fact, the number of sightings in August 1955 was lower than during the previous month. In the early 1960's many of the U-2s were painted black or other camouflage colors thus reducing the number of U-2's that could potentially be seen by glint reflection from the sun. Aside from the statistics it should be pointed out that many unexplained sightings involved relatively nearby, structured objects, not nearly invisible distant points of reflected light. These objects were reported to move rapidly at speeds that would far exceed in apparent speed that of the U-2, flying at about 500 mph at 70,000 ft (the U-2 would seem to move slowly, if seen at all). The documented history of the agency involvement has been known to ufologists since late 1978 when the CIA released documents (900 pages) after an FOIPA lawsuit. The history has been published in "Clear Intent" by Larry Fawcett and Barry Greenwood, in "Above Top Secret" by Timothy Good and most recently in "The FBI-UFO Connection/the REAL X-files" published by Llewellyn (available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble) by Bruce Maccabee. There is little not previously known in the new, official CIA history. The CIA history is available on the web page of the Center for the Study of Intelligence at www.odci.gov/csi (where odci = Office of the Director of Central Intelligence.... shudder!)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 14 UpDate: PRG Press Release - 7/14/00 From: Stephen G .Bassett (ParadigmRG@aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:33:38 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:56:36 -0400 Subject: UpDate: PRG Press Release - 7/14/00 PRG Paradigm Research Group Press Release July 14, 2000 Washington, DC - The Paradigm Clock has been reset to 11:58:10 pm. Based upon developments from August 1999 to July 2000 (some shown below), the clock has been moved forward 50 seconds. The Paradigm Clock resides at the Paradigm Research Group website: www.paradigmclock.com. It is a metaphor representing the proximity to formal disclosure by the U. S. government of the ongoing presence of extraterrestrial life forms in our world, now. It is modeled after the "Doomsday Clock" first published in 1947 by the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists. Midnight on the Doomsday Clock meant nuclear war had begun. Midnight on the Paradigm Clock will mean formal disclosure has taken place. Clock History: April 30, 1998: Published to the Web, time 11:57:00 pm July 27, 1998: Time reset back to 11:56:30 pm July 28, 1999: Time reset forward to 11:57:15 pm Some of the developments affecting this new time setting are: 7/6/00 - On Coast to Coast AM [www.coasttocoastam.com], noted legal/social activist, Daniel Sheehan, confirms the existence of remarkable evidence presented to him during his work on a 1977 research report on extraterrestrial intelligence initiated by President Jimmy Carter. Former Stanford Research Institute futurist and author of the new eBook "Exopolitics" [www.universebooks.com], Alfred Webre, who also worked on the Carter report, confirms the project was shut down prematurely. Daniel Sheehan commits the resources of the Christic Institute to the formal disclosure process. Both publicly state strong convictions regarding the ET hypothesis. 6/23/99 - Internet entrepreneur, Joseph Firmage, who has publicly stated his belief in an extraterrestrial presence, launches an integrated media network, Project Voyager [www.projectvoyager.com], with Ann Druyan, widow of the late Carl Sagan. Firmage declares his venture capital firm, Intend Change, has amassed $225 million. 5/23/00 - The Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) releases 27,000 new Mars photos onto the Internet which immediately come under close scrutiny by a host of Mars researchers. The archive covers one Mars year, 687 Earth days, beginning in September 1997 and extending through August 1999. 5/21/00 - Leslie Kean, an accomplished freelance journalist, publishes in the Boston Globe an extended piece on the UFO/ET issue, focusing on the COMETA report published in France in July of 1999. The Globe is one of the top ten dailies in America. The Minneapolis Star-Tribune (May 29), Memphis Commercial Appeal, Irish Independent (June 27), and VSD Magazine (July) follow up with versions of the story. 4/26/00 - Mike Siegel seamlessly replaces Art Bell on Coast to Coast AM. Premiere Radio Networks makes it clear the program will remain devoted to the show's previous subject matter, including the UFO/ET/Disclosure issues. Siegel, who has a Ph.D. and a law degree, demonstrates keen interest in the politics of disclosure. 4/5/00 - The Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) release new photographs of the Cydonia region of Mars which had been held back in violation of an agreement to publish such photos quickly. 3/11/00 - A Canadian cable television technician reveals he has taped direct NASA Shuttle videos. Martyn Stubbs comes forward with anomalous imagery and thousands of hours of tape to examine. 3/10/00 - Touchstone Pictures releases Brian DePalma's provocative movie, Mission to Mars, and introduces the Cydonia/Face controversy to millions of Americans. 11/99 - Dr. John Mack of Harvard University publishes "Passport to the Cosmos: Human Transformation and Alien Encounters" his long awaited follow-up to "Abduction: Human Encounters with Aliens." Contact: Stephen Bassett ***************************************************************** Paradigm Research Group URL: www.paradigmclock.com E-mail: ParadigmRG@aol.com Phone: 301-564-1820 Fax: 301-564-4066 4938 Hampden Lane, #161 Bethesda, Maryland 20814 ***************************************************************** "There is almost no limit to what you can accomplish, if you are willing to give away the credit." *****************************************************************
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 14 UpDate: Re: NIDS Prompts Speculation - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:40:19 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:59:31 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: NIDS Prompts Speculation - Mortellaro >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:21:10 -0700 (PDT) >From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com> >Subject: NIDS Prompts Speculation >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Greetings list - >From: http://www.canoe.ca/EdmontonNews/es.es-07-12-0012.html >Shadowy agency prompts speculation >By DOUG BEAZLEY, EDMONTON SUN >Wednesday, July 12, 2000 >A rich-as-God real estate magnate with his own private jet can >go just about anywhere he wants, whenever he wants - including >North Battleford, Sask., in high August. >Question is, why would he want to? Well, if he's Robert T. >Bigelow, he goes for the scenery. And the mutilated cattle. <snip> >"NIDS is a black hole. Information goes in, nothing comes out," >said Gord Kijek of the Alberta UFO Study Group. "Nobody seems to >know what their real agenda is." >Nobody seems to know a whole lot about Bigelow either. His >official NIDS bio describes him as a very wealthy philanthropist >with his own aerospace company - currently working on a project >to develop the first orbiting space hotel. >In 1947, according to the Wall Street Journal, Bigelow's >grandparents were buzzed by a glowing red UFO while driving >through the Nevada desert late at night. He's reportedly spent >more than $10 million of his own money on paranormal research to >date, including bankrolling the operation of St. Paul's own UFO >hotline between 1996 and 1999. >"In return for paying the bills, he got first crack at any UFO >sighting report we received," said Paul Pelletier, former >hotline administrator. "We weren't allowed to publicize them >without NIDS' permission." >In 1996, Bigelow sent a team of researchers to a Utah ranch >which reportedly had been the site of a range of bizarre >phenomena: UFOs the size of football fields, circular doorways >appearing in midair, floating balls of light incinerating family >pets. He bought out the owners on the condition that they keep >mum about whatever they'd seen. >"Personally, it's not the way I feel science should be done," >said Dr. Jim Butler, a U of A biologist with an interest in the >paranormal. "Because of the secrecy, a lot of conspiracy >theories get built up around NIDS." <snip> Science should be done with full disclosure. My opinion. It isn't science if it isn't in the public domain. Perhaps this is why our conspiracists have such a good grip on our own military and government conspiracy theories. However I must admit that I trust NIDS more than I trust the Goobers in Gooberland, which is just north of Lill Putts, near Washington, DC. I mean, the government knows a lot more or a lot less than we think they do. But NIDS knows a lot more. Whatever an org such as NIDS knows, should be in the public domain. It's why NASA was set up. And look at NASA these days. Woof! Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 14 UpDate: Re: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 15:40:10 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:02:24 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - >Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 02:13:07 -0400 (EDT) >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> >>Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:47:52 +0100 >>Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:16:42 -0400 >>Subject: UpDate: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? >>This may be of interest: >>Source: WorldNetDaily >>http://www.worldnetdaily.com/ >>Wednesday, July 12, 2000 >>Little green men or the Air Force? >>by Charles Smith >>The Freedom of Information Act is wonderful when it comes to >>unexplained reports of extraterrestrial visits. The Federation >>of American Scientists, a Washington-based science advocacy >>group, recently discovered through the Freedom of Information >>Act that reports of UFO activity also corresponded with the >>flights of top- secret American spy aircraft. >>In the 1960s, the Central Intelligence Agency and the U.S. Air >>Force worked very hard to generate UFO cover stories for secret >>aircraft. The result was a hysterical joke on the world that >>echoes through to this day. >>Keep in mind; this was during the height of the Cold War when >>the USA and USSR were on the verge of nuclear combat. The >>aircraft involved were certainly alien with their incredible >>performance. The silver long-winged U-2 aircraft could fly 14 >>miles high and stay aloft for hours, while the blackened, >>delta-shaped SR-71 could fly even higher at speeds exceeding >>2,000 miles an hour. >Well let's see. >Question: Were the U-2 and SR-71 designed to spy on the gullible >U.S. public or the Russians? >Answer: That's right -- the Russians. What's the point of >generating UFO cover stories for your secret aircraft to fool >the American public? >Question: So the CIA tries to make the Russians think that our >spy planes are really UFOs. Now think about this. Would this >really work? >Answer: It might only work if the Russians strongly believed in >UFOs already. Otherwise this is useless as a cover strategy. If >the Russians didn't believe in UFOs as something distinctly >different from human craft, you might as well try to pass off a >U-2 or SR-71 as Santa Claus and his flying reindeer. >Question: Would the vast Russian military and intelligence >complex strongly believe in UFOs in the 1960s? >Answer: Not bloody likely, unless they had collected very >impressive evidence of their reality. This is now 15-20 years >after the European ghost rockets of 1946 and the great UFO wave >of 1947. >What this all comes down to is that UFOs can be used as some >sort of useful cover if and only if the other side believes in >them for some damned good reason. >Skeptical arguments (often advanced by James Oberg, e.g.) that >BOTH the U.S. and Russia used UFOs as covers for their secret >projects if taken to their obvious logical conclusion are tacit >admissions that both the U.S. and Russian firmly believed in the >reality of UFOs. Oberg offered pretty good evidence that the Russians tried to cover up a failed missile launch with a UFO story. It's easy, of course, when you have a controlled press. People saw something spectacular in the sky. This was caused by the missile failure, but the Russians didn't want to admit that. So they allowed or encouraged or ordered their press to print speculation that people were seeing a UFO. Did they have to believe in UFOs to do this? No. Did they fool the CIA? Surely not. They were first trying to fool their own people, though of course they wouldn't have minded if they made things harder for the CIA in the process. The article David Rudiak responded to got its original story backwards, if I understood it correctly. I don't know that the CIA tried to generate UFO stories to cover spy plane flights. I do know, as many of us do, that a CIA report (recently declassified, if I remember correctly) stated the reverse, that as many as half of all UFO sightings could explained as spy planes. In any case, I think that David is being a little too logical. Intelligence agencies do a lot of things that don't make sense. I get the idea that deception comes naturally to them -- so naturally that they may lose track of who they're trying to deceive. Are they trying to fool their own people, or the enemy? The boundary between the two may blur, especially in the case of Soviet intelligence agencies, which treated their own people as an enemy. I can think of two cases where intelligence agencies pulled ridiculous deceptions that didn't fool anybody. One I heard about from one of my cousins, who spent many years in the Air Force. He was once assigned, he told me, to Air Force intelligence in Washington, DC. His orders were to fly to Washington and take a cab to the street corner where Air Force Intelligence was located. He wasn't to name the specific address, lest he give away any secrets. As he told the story, as soon as he told the street corner to the cab driver, the driver said, "Air Force Intelligence?" My second story is very well known. During the Soviet era, all maps on public sale in the Soviet Union had intentional errors, in order to fool spies and invading armies. Everybody in Russia knew this, and of course so did the CIA. The joke in Soviet Russia, in fact, was that only the CIA had accurate Russian maps. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 14 UpDate: Re: Close Encounter Creates Great Expectations From: lornis1@juno.com Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 15:00:26 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:04:19 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Close Encounter Creates Great Expectations Dear Friends, Just some further commentary on the Mexican non-event. Scott Corrales Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU) www.inexplicata.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CITY "CLOSE ENCOUNTER" CREATES GREAT EXPECTATIONS AND CAUSES COMMOTION IN POLANCO Source: La Cronica de Hoy (newspaper) Date: Thursday, 13 July 2000 Story by Julian Tellez, Photo by Marcelo Palacios Residents of Mexico City were witnesses to a close encounter of the third kind (sic) at different points of the capitals center and southern districts. A number of opinions were ventured on this event, with the vast majority reaching the conclusion that the moment had indeed arrived to make contact with life on other planets. The "parade" of shining objects parading across the capital's skies unleashed popular imagination. Hundreds of persons saw what was described as "a silver dot with quick movments and without a defined heading." It was then that the first urban theories began to emarge on the phenomenon: "I don't think its an airplane, much less some child's lost balloon. Airplanes don't have that color, helicopters don't have that shape, and a balloon would have burst on account of the wind gusts," stated one cab driver who looked heavenward. In the face of this event, personnel from the Mexico City International Airport Control Tower denied the alleged appearance of "UFOs" over the Federal District. They subsequently indicated that they would remain on the lookout for any anomalies. On the other hand, Jaime Maussan's enterprises, devoted to UFO investigation, confirmed that since 10:30 am yesterday reports were coming in from persons who claimed having seen "a column of at least 20 UFOs over the avenues of the Polanco and Anzures districts and even from the Pemex Tower and other neighborhoods." According to Mr. Maussan's staff, they witnessed how the "silvery objects" formed geometric shapes in the air, created spectral images and finally dissolved in the air without a trace. Many persons set aside their activities to witness this "extraordinary" event, since perhaps these "silvery objects" were genuine proof of the existence of intelligent beings on other planets. "I'm very concerned that SEDENA (Mexico's Department of Defense) isn't doing anything. Those things are flying over their building and that's a restricted flight area," complained a man who walked along Calle Homero. The phenomenon soon turned into a possible alien visitation. "I've already had a few sightings, the last of them when my wife was about to get better," stated a taxi stand watchman in Polanco, scratching his head. "We're nothing compared to them--they've already reached us and we haven't even reached them!" The rumor that the alleged UFOs were the result of a promotional event being held at the Marquis Reforma Hotel served to calm down the situation. It was later confirmed that the objects were simply balloons sent airborne from an event at said hotel. SOURCE: http://webcom.com.mx/cronica/2000/jul/13/pri07.html # # # # Translation (c) 2000. Institute of Hispanic Ufology.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 14 UpDate: Public Request To Robert Bigelow & NIDS From: John <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:43:33 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:07:13 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Public Request To Robert Bigelow & NIDS Dear Mr. Bigelow, and to Whom it may concern at NIDS, (Mr. Alexander?) This is an excerpt from an e-mail I received from one of the abductees whose files were purchased (and returned) by NIDS. I have been communicating with several of the subjects in question. I received this today. (Thursday 7/13/00) >John, I would suggest that there is an open discussion on >that list (UFO UpDates) to find out a way to make Bigelow >send back those files. A way needs to be found to contact the >other people on the list that are not aware of the damage >John Carpenter did by selling the files without informing >anyone. This must not die down. PLEASE. I cannot ignore an appeal like that. Ergo, the following note to Mr. Bigelow and Mr. Alexander at NIDS. Regarding the transfer of abductee files between yourself/NIDS and Mr John Carpenter: I have learned only recently that only twenty (20) of the 140 subjects whose personal files NIDS purchased are even aware of the transfer/transaction. At the very least, the subjects in question should be notified that their files have been transferred to someone other than the individual they first approached and confided in. It may not be a 'legal' requirement but it is a very human, ethical, and moral one. Each of the individuals should be notified of the transfer of personal records and reports and given the option of having their files returned to them upon request. That cannot happen if the subjects of the files in question are unaware of the transfer. I appeal to you as a human being and as an abductee (there but for the grace of God go I) that the individuals in question be granted this basic right to know that their files have been sold. As the situation stands, the subjects themselves are being denied the right to know, and the right to choose. It just isn't very fair to those involved. "Subjects" though they may be, these are the files of 'People' not guinea pigs and therefore they are deserving of some respect and consideration in the matter of the transfer of any personal information or reports. If the files were purchased under the auspices of NIDS, then NIDS should rightfully be the ones to inform the subjects (out of common courtesy and because the researcher who sold them to NIDS hasn't done it,) and to be magnanimous enough to offer them the option of having their personal files returned upon request. (In case the subjects are not happy about having their reports transferred.) To do so would be a morally proper and ethical course of action. Not to mention _tremendous_ public relations for NIDS and Mr. Bigelow. I hope that you will give this request consideration. Many others are also waiting and hoping for a positive response. Myself, nor anyone else is trying to paint NIDS as a "bad guy" in this situation. It would be really nice though if NIDS would choose to 'take the high road' (don a 'White Hat') and ride in to the rescue of the very folks who are providing you with the raw material that you need for your own research/studies. Hoping for a 'Happy Ending.' Sincerely, John Velez -- ______________________________________________ A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center - www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm jvif@spacelab.net "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ______________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 14 UpDate: Re: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:09:44 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:09:50 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly - Hatch >Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 01:00:05 -0400 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >Subject: Re: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:11:30 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >>Subject: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Hi everyone. >>Below is a recent news article which reminds us that as far as >>being able to identify the true origins of some peculiar rocks >>and ultimately answers about our own origins, science is still >>in Kindergarten. >This is interesting in many ways. Thanks for posting it, Nick. >I was struck by the first paragraph of the article: >"Chemists at the University of California, San Diego have >discovered an isotope anomaly previously thought unique to >meteorites and other extraterrestrial rocks in sulfate minerals >on Earth." >This makes me think of Roger Leir, and the claim some people >make that an alleged implant he'd studied had been proved to be >extraterrestrial. >Actually, the lab doing the analysis had only commented that the >substance seemed similar to material found in meteorites. So now >we learn that one isotope formerly thought only to occur in >meteorites can also be found on earth. >Which helps remind us that the analysis was very preliminary, >and didn't prove anything one way or another. Hello Greg, Nick and all: If I have this right, somebody found materials on Earth (i.e. in the ground) with isotope ratios previously thought only to occur in meteorites or other space rocks. Apparently, this is rare (the earthly samples) Has anyone considered that the new "finds" are simply old meteor fragments? That they could be the remains of meteors that hit Earth thousands or millions of years ago? If so, the original isotope ratio discriminators would still be valid. Ne c'est pas? I must be missing something here. Best anyhow - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 14 UpDate: Re: "Who's There?" From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 22:46:01 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:24:45 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: "Who's There?" >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:21:46 -0700 (PDT) >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> >Subject: "Who's There?" >To: UfoUpdates <updates@sympatico.ca> >This is an essay on UFOs that's been languishing on my >website: >Who's There? >A Rundown of Theories Used to Account for the UFO >Phenomenon >by Mac Tonnies I don't know if you remember Mac, but eighteen months ago I wrote an article called "101 Possible explanations for UFO's". It was published in the UK's "The UFO Magazine" spread over two issues. The most amazing thing for me was that I received not one email, or letter praising/bitching about my list. Was I wrong to expect _some_ comments about it? -- In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible. Sean Jones http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 14 UpDate: Like Flying Saucers - Lunar Dust Hovers Too From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 18:04:09 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:25:54 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Like Flying Saucers - Lunar Dust Hovers Too Hi Everyone. Below is an edited message I got from the University of Colorado (why does this name sound familiar?) explaining why lunar dust has been observed to remain hovering a few feet above the Moon, a world where there is no air. Fortunately, the dust on Earth is better behaved and I am not surrounded in a cloud of dust like Pig Pen, the Peanuts cartoon character whenever I go back to work on the Dust Bunny Project. Thanks again to everyone who send me some of their dust for our UFO related experiment. A few of those who also noted the suspended lunar dust and saw it as proof that the manned lunar landings were fake events staged right here on Earth, where the air does get quite dust, may be forced to accept that Earthlings did really visit another world three decades ago. Nick Balaskas ******* A small layer of dust suspended several feet above the moon's surface that was first photographed by the Lunar Surveyor spacecraft in the 1960s and later observed by Apollo astronauts has been a puzzle to some planetary scientists. But a University of Colorado at Boulder research team is on the verge of explaining the odd dust phenomenon, <snip> Researchers have assumed the lunar dust levitation is caused by ultraviolet photons from the sun ejecting electrons from isolated grains of dust, giving each a positive charge. The same radiation also is thought to be knocking electrons off the moon's surface rocks, causing the electrons to bounce upward and negatively charge dust grains near the surface, said CU-Boulder physics Professor Scott Robertson. The end result is thought to be that negatively charged dust particles fall back to the surface while a small belt of positively charged particles float several feet above the surface. The positively charged particles are thought to be held in place in a layer less than a foot across by gravitational forces pulling the particles toward the moon's surface and the repelling force of the positively charged moon. The team from CU-Boulder's Laboratory for Atmospheric and Space Physics designed an experiment to confirm the first step of the theory that included dropping individual, pepper grain-sized particles of zinc, copper and graphite through an evacuated chamber illuminated by UV light from an arc lamp. The grains fell about a foot into a device known as a Faraday cup, which directly measured the electrical charge of each grain. Each dust particle received roughly the amount of positive charge the research team expected, said Robertson. In a follow-up experiment, a zirconium plate was placed near the falling grains to simulate the effect of moon rocks emitting photoelectrons. That experiment produced negatively charged dust particles, as expected, said Sickafoose. A paper on the subject was published in the June 26 issue of Physical Review Letters. The paper was authored by Sickafoose and LASP Research Associates Joshua Colwell, Mihaly Horanyi and Robertson. "The original theory seemed to satisfy most planetary scientists when it was proposed some time ago," said Robertson, also a research associate at CU-Boulder's Laboratory for Atmospheric and Space Physics. "But no one seems to have bothered to do a rigorous experimental check." <snip>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 14 UpDate: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - Brigham From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 18:12:42 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:27:14 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - Brigham >Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 02:13:07 -0400 (EDT) >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? >To: updates@sympatico.ca >It might only work if the Russians strongly believed in >UFOs already. Otherwise this is useless as a cover strategy. If >the Russians didn't believe in UFOs as something distinctly >different from human craft, you might as well try to pass off a >U-2 or SR-71 as Santa Claus and his flying reindeer. >Question: Would the vast Russian military and intelligence >complex strongly believe in UFOs in the 1960s? >Answer: Not bloody likely, unless they had collected very >impressive evidence of their reality. This is now 15-20 years >after the European ghost rockets of 1946 and the great UFO wave >of 1947. >What this all comes down to is that UFOs can be used as some >sort of useful cover if and only if the other side believes in >them for some damned good reason. >Skeptical arguments (often advanced by James Oberg, e.g.) that >BOTH the U.S. and Russia used UFOs as covers for their secret >projects if taken to their obvious logical conclusion are tacit >admissions that both the U.S. and Russian firmly believed in the >reality of UFOs. Hello, Looking at it from that point of view, then wouldn't we expect the US Air Force to investigate domestic UFO sightings as possible foreign craft, rather than just completely ignoring them? If our own military allegedly ignores a report as a 'loon case,' why would we expect the other side to act differently? Best, Tim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 14 UpDate: Leeds, UK UFO Footage Shown On Local TV From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 00:56:05 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:28:29 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Leeds, UK UFO Footage Shown On Local TV Forwarded from 'alt.ufo'. Stig *** Subject: UFO Footage in Leeds, UK Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 15:16:21 +0100 From: "Paul Carpenter" <carps@carps.worldonline.co.uk> Newsgroups: alt.ufo ** Came in from work, halfway through crappy old Look North regional news, and just caught the tailend of some impressive-looking daylight footage shot over Leeds. The object in question was over some houses, moving down towards the horizon quite slowly, and was most akin to a largish red fireball. The Look North team (Mike "Moustache" Morris and his dippy sidekick) were saying that there was no local air traffic, as someone had actually checked with local airfields, and it was certainly below the clouds. They also said that there were multiple witnesses over a wide area, which is suggestive, perhaps, of a high-flying object - possibly a re-entry? Does anyone know anything more about this tantalising footage? It was only this week (i.e. sometime between Monday 3rd July and today)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 14 UpDate: Re: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Myers From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 17:55:10 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:30:23 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Myers >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:17:33 -0400 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:05:51 -0700 >>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> >>Subject: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:45:24 -0400 >>>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >>>Subject: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> ><snip> >Fortunately there are real, traceable documents which provide an >eye-opening view of the history of early Air Force activities... >see "The UFO - FBI Connection". I'm not disagreeing with the fact that there are genuine U.S. government documents pertaining to UFOs, I'm saying that many of the so-called MJ-12 documents are bogus and that someone is having a hell of a laugh at the expense of Ufology... but what's new, eh? My other point is that these 'researchers' want to point out all the incriminating items that point to a massive UFO conspiracy in these alleged documents, but don't want to go anywhere near anything in those same documents that point to the contrary (i.e.: Eisenhower Briefing document). Also, thanks for the plug on your book, Bruce. Regards, Royce J. Myers III eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy - "Don't Trip On Your Open Mind...or the piles of bogus governement documents being sent to your PO Box from an anonymous source who has unlimited access to a computer and a printer and who is having one hell of a laugh at your expense...or is it a conspiracy to suppress the 'truth' once again....?? Tim, are you listening? eXpos News http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3 UFO Hall o' Shame http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 14 UpDate: Re: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published - Fleming From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 20:50:24 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:31:44 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published - Fleming >Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:28:10 +0800 >From: John Winterflood <jwinter@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> >Subject: Re: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:21:41 -0600 >>From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:18:18 +0800 >>>From: John Winterflood <jwinter@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> >>>Subject: Re: Mars Triple-Point Fallacy Gets Published >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> ><snip> >>>It is important to remember that the pressure to be used for the >>>triple-point is the _partial_ vapour pressure of the water >>>component of the atmosphere. The atmosphere on Mars is ~95% >>>carbon dioxide, so if the _total_ atmospheric pressure according >>>to Malin is "at or below .... 6.1 mbar" then the partial >>>pressure contributed by the very small and variable water vapour >>>content is going to be well and truly below the 6.1 mbar >>>triple-point requirement. With this understanding Malin's >>>statement seems correct and reasonable. >>It is neither correct nor reasonable. What determines the >>boiling point temperature of water is the _total_ atmospheric >>pressure, not the partial pressure. ... >You are quite right that the _boiling_ point is determined by >total atmospheric pressure - that is when the vapour pressure is >sufficient to expand to produce bubbles in the volume of a >liquid in a system very far from equilibrium. >However the _triple_ point has to do with a system in >equilibrium - where the rate of molecules evaporating from the >surface is equal to the rate at which the molecules condense. >These rates are always determined by the partial pressure of the >molecules that are evaporating/condensing and are virtually >independent of the partial pressures of other species of >molecules present. Any pair of temperature and partial pressure values that falls on one of the three phase transition lines describes an equilibrium between two of the three phases. The triple-point is the temperature/value pair that describes an equilibrium for all three phases. But this doesn't have any bearing on Malin's categorical statement that Mars' atmospheric pressures are at or below the triple-point. It is simply untrue for very large areas of the planet. BTW: I have to say that aside from the bad start to the article, I thought it was very good. I don't subscribe to the criticism some have made that because Malin "knew" that there were indications of water seepage over a year ago, that there is something suspicious about his waiting this long to publish a paper. He waited until he had several hundred examples of such seepage, and because of that was able to establish their distribution over the planet and to note that these apparent seepage features were mostly on slopes facing away from the sun and mostly at high latitudes. Both these factors do seem to point toward liquid water being responsible for them, and he wouldn't have known that if he had rushed a claim of liquid water evidence into print prematurely. And he wouldn't have been able to propose a mechanism to explain them that makes the liquid water explanation seem very plausible. The evidence he's amassed may make it rather difficult for other scientists to claim that these features are anything other than evidence of water flows.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 14 UpDate: Re: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 23:19:06 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:33:39 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly - Balaskas >Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 01:00:05 -0400 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >Subject: Re: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:11:30 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >>Subject: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Hi everyone. >>Below is a recent news article which reminds us that as far as >>being able to identify the true origins of some peculiar rocks >>and ultimately answers about our own origins, science is still >>in Kindergarten. >This is interesting in many ways. Thanks for posting it, Nick. >I was struck by the first paragraph of the article: >"Chemists at the University of California, San Diego have >discovered an isotope anomaly previously thought unique to >meteorites and other extraterrestrial rocks in sulfate minerals >on Earth." >This makes me think of Roger Leir, and the claim some people >make that an alleged implant he'd studied had been proved to be >extraterrestrial. >Actually, the lab doing the analysis had only commented that the >substance seemed similar to material found in meteorites. So now >we learn that one isotope formerly thought only to occur in >meteorites can also be found on earth. >Which helps remind us that the analysis was very preliminary, >and didn't prove anything one way or another. Hi Greg. An professor here makes a point of reminding his new class of astronomy students that we are made up of star dust, heavy atoms which were created in the interiors of stars that exploded in the distant past. He also reminds them that every day tons of extraterrestrial material is added to the soil we grow the food we consume. It is important to note though that one is a deduced scientific belief and the other is an observed scientific fact. Everyone has their own cherished personal beliefs, including scientists, but when one closely evaluates the factual basis for many deduced scientific beliefs, such as you and I being made up of star dust for example, one finds that the evidence isn't anywhere close to the quality and quantity of observational evidence which leads to the conclusion that UFOs are of extraterrestrial origin. Even if some dedicated researcher such as Roger Leir were to present to the selectively skeptical scientific community an alien implant which had some really unusual physical and chemical properties (and there are such objects in the possession of some researchers that do) and was even stamped Made In Alpha Centauri, it would still not be scientific proof of E.T. origin and would soon be forgotten altogether as many other unexplained or embarrasing curiousities. Earlier today I got an e-mail from Chris Rutkowski who wrote the following about this same topic. "There's no question that we are fighting an uphill battle. It's interesting to actually ask skeptics what they would require in the way of absolute proof of alien visitation. I've received a list ranging from manufactured items with "impossible" radioactive decay signatures to live CNN coverage of a tour inside a saucer. Even then though...." Maybe we will never be able to prove anything one way or the other, at least to the satisfaction of everyone, since it is not science that really decides what is real or not but current scientific beliefs. Nick Balaskas P.S. I would like to add a comment I added in my reply to Chris regarding some recently revealed space facts, such as the first cosmonaut to orbit the Earth (and return back alive). It was Vladimir Ilyushin and not Yuri Gagarin. Here we are trying to learn something about the possible alien (UFO) space program only to find out that our own space program which we thought we knew all about is just as mysterious, if not more, than the alien one.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 14 UpDate: Sniffing Out E.T. From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:28:13 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:37:31 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Sniffing Out E.T. Source: ABC News, http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DyeHard/dyehard.html Stig *** Sniffing Out E.T. The Latest Device for Finding E.T. Is a Nose -- of Sorts [Scientists may not know what alien life looks like -- or whether it exists. But they�re guessing they can at least search for proteins that signal life's presence. (Fotos International/Archive Photos)] By Lee Dye Special to ABCNEWS.com ** July 13 -- We've looked for E.T. but haven't seen him, and we've listened but haven't heard him, so now scientists are working on a plan to see if they can "sniff" him out. It's not exactly as though they expect to detect his under-tentacle deodorant. Instead, they hope to inhale a few molecules on some distant celestial body and see if those molecules are specific proteins that bear the clear signature of life. Library of Life It's all the brainchild of Marilyn Fogel, senior scientist at the Carnegie Institution of Washington, and she has a lot of work laid out for her in the years to come. First, she has to build a complete library of heavy molecules, such as proteins, here on Earth. Then, she needs to show which molecules resulted from non-biological processes and which are proteins that show the presence of life. "This will be five years of work," Fogel says, and that's just for the first stage. After completing her "library," Fogel expects a device similar to the one she is using for her ambitious project to be shipped off to Mars or some other object in our solar system to see what it can find. It all began about three years ago when she was a member of the Space Studies Board of the National Research Council, the research arm of the National Academy of Sciences. The board was being briefed by NASA on plans to bring back a sample from Mars to see if it contained any evidence of life. [This Search for Extraterrestrial Life Institute uses expanses of satellite dishes to listen for life on other planets. (SETI Institute/AP Graphics)] "This was very disturbing to me," she says, because she thought NASA had put the cart before the horse. It would make more sense, she concluded, to come up with some sort of gadget that could do the same thing while still on the surface of Mars. Without doing that first, she asked NASA, how could you know which samples were worth bringing back? It would also be a lot cheaper than hauling a bag full of rocks back from Mars that might turn out to be of little value. But unfortunately no one knew just how to isolate and analyze proteins on the surface of Mars without shipping an entire laboratory to the Red Planet. A DNA Nose So Fogel set out to find a way to do just that. She knew she needed something similar to DNA microchips that can do thousands of reactions on a very small surface, but she needed it to work on proteins, the building blocks of life. All living tissue contains proteins. As luck would have it, a California firm, Ciphergen Inc., was developing an instrument for biomedical research that could fill the bill. The instrument, which became available just last year, consists of tiny, thin strips of metal coated with different chemically active molecules that can extract and identify other molecules, including proteins, from complex mixtures. Think of it as a hypersensitive nose. Such a device, Fogel believed, could "sniff out" the clues she was looking for. She wrote a proposal that was immediately accepted by NASA's National Astrobiology Institute, an interdisciplinary consortium at the Ames Research Center south of San Francisco that is dedicated to the search for extraterrestrial life. The equipment is now at Carnegie's Geophysical Laboratory in Washington, D.C. "I'm right at the beginning, and I think it's very exciting," says Fogel, an astrobiologist who has spent many years studying how molecules are affected by biological processes. The device, called a "time of flight mass spectrometer," isolates molecules, and then separates them according to weight. Some molecules are very light, such as amino acid. A typical protein consists of a chain of amino acids, and is thus much heavier. Amino acids are essential for life to form, but their presence doesn't necessarily mean life is there. The presence of protein, on the other hand, indicates that amino acids have combined to form the basic structure of organic life. So it's those larger molecules, or proteins that bear the clear signature of life. Misleading Molecules But nature can be tricky, as evidenced by the on-going debate over whether tiny rod-shaped crystals found in the Martian meteorite ALH84001 were formed by geology or biology. Some heavy molecules can be formed by non-biological processes, and sorting out which molecules resulted from which process is the task that now stretches before Fogel. The problem, as she sees it, is "we don't even have a complete inventory of proteins here on Earth," so that's the starting point. "What I intend to do with this instrument is look at things like organic matter from meteorites, organic matter that comes from my colleagues here who are doing abiotic [not produced by living organisms] synthesis experiments" as well as proteins that are an essential part of the cells of every living substance, she says. In a few years, she hopes to have a complete catalogue of which molecules were formed by which processes, and how they changed through fossilization. Then, maybe in a decade, the instrument in her lab could be downsized to the microchip level and sent off to Mars, or possibly Jupiter's moon Europa, to search for proteins there. If it finds them, Fogel believes she can compare them to samples in her library and determine their role in a very different world. Then, at least, we'll know what we should be looking for. * Lee Dye's column appears weekly on ABCNEWS.com. A former science writer for the Los Angeles Times, he now lives in Juneau, Alaska. Copyright �2000 ABC News Internet Ventures.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 14 UpDate: Re: New Sighting In Mexico City From: Holger Isenberg <H.Isenberg@ping.de> Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:09:38 +0200 (CEST) Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:39:35 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: New Sighting In Mexico City Who has pictures of these? Source: The Independent http://www.independent.co.uk/news/World/Americas/2000-07/mexico140700.shtml The Independent, London Mexico City gridlocked by sightseers after hotel releases a dozen 'UFOs' By Jan McGirk in Mexico City 14 July 2000 A formation of unidentified flying objects hovering over Mexico City's Chapultepec Park unleashed what one newspaper called a "communal psychosis" on Wednesday. For four hours, hundreds rushed outdoors to gawp up and point. <snip> More than a dozen shiny discs loitered, then swerved as excited Mexicans tracked their progress between soaring cumulus clouds in an unusually clear sky. <snip> The Secretary of Public Security and Mexican airport authorities eventually said the latest "visit" was a promotional stunt a hotel had released clusters of enormous metallic balloons around lunchtime. But Jaime Maussan, who documents UFO phenomena and hosts the radio show, said: "From 10am we received reports that various objects in the sky were assuming geometrical formations and they were captured in 15 videos. Around 1.30pm the balloons were released. This created confusion." <snip> -- Holger Isenberg H.Isenberg@ping.de http://mars-news.de
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 14 UpDate: Re: 'Ungathering' At Ilkley, Yorkshire, UK From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:49:14 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:43:00 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Ungathering' At Ilkley, Yorkshire, UK ----- From: STEPHEN JONES <PAGANJONES7@compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver@compuserve.com <Blind.Copy.Receiver@compuserve.com> Date: 09 July 2000 15:30 Subject: Ungathering at Ilkley. The response from the Forteana list to the Ungathering I arranged for August Bank Holiday was disappointing. However as I have already arranged and paid the deposit, I am opening it up to friends on my own list and people from the Witches United Kingdom list which I run. The event is on August 26-27 at Westwood Lodge Ilkley(see it at www.westwoodlodge.demon.co.uk). The lodge is a former Victorian Schoolhouse recently turned into a comfortable Conference centre. it is literally on the edge of Ilkley Moor as you only have to cross the road to be on it! The speakers and events are as follows: Dr Gail-Nina Anderson: An expert on vampires,Horror and Sci Fi films and art history with particular interest in Pre-Raphaelites. She will be discussing Vampires in Myth and Legend. Richard Freeman of The Centre For Fortean Zoology: A former zookeeper at Twycross zoo, Richard is a member of the CFZ and also a Magician.His particular interest is Dragons and he is an expert on their history and lore. He has been involved in many investigations of mystery animals and strange events for the CFZ. He will be discussing Urban Monsters, the strange and unusual sightings made in towns and cities. Steve Jones: A Pagan since 1983 Steve founded the Wakefield Pagan Moot in 1988, he still runs it. He also founded the Oakleaf Circle a Pagan group which holds Pagan Camps and publishes the Little Red Book a Pagan Directory. He runs the WitchesUnitedKingdom and Stevesfriends list on the Net. He has many interests including Folklore, Paganism, Forteana, Tarot, Cryptozoology and Earth Mysteries and also manages to fit in being one of the only Pagan Magistrates in the country. he will be discussing sightings of Hooded Entities both large and small and attempting to explain them. Dave Wheldrake: A practicing Archaeologist, Dave is the Information Officer for The West Yorkshire Archaeology Service. He is also interested in Folklore and Legends and has taught Folklore classes for Adult Education classes. He will be leading a walk around Ilkley Moor looking at the Archaeological Sites and explaining their meaning. In addition to Dave, Steve will also explain some of the more Fortean and Pagan aspects of the Moor, including Fairy Sightings and a visit to the site of hooded entity encounters. The Hotel includes a Gym, Sauna, jacuzzi and bar and is for our exclusive use from 4pm on the 26th until Mondaythe 28th(Bank Holiday Monday) there are a limited number of single and double rooms available in the Hotel at a cost of �50 for the weekend including full Yorkshire breakfast. People wishing to attend but not stay ,the cost is �20 a head. Apart from Dave ,the speakers are resident so those stopping will have a chance to talk with them about their interests and experiences. A number of videos will also be shown. Please contact myself for details and booking forms. I hope we can all get together and have a good weekend. I have tried to make this a chance for people to experience a wide range of views so you will all be able to discover new friends and interests(I hope<G>). many people had asked for an event in the North so here you are! Steve -----
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 14 UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 13:36:38 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:46:43 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Mortellaro >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:41:25 -0700 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca> >Subject: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Friedman >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 08:43:39 -0300 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>Subject: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 05:06:57 +0100 >>>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >>>Subject: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... Easton >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> ><snip> >>Come on guys, how about doing something other than >>proclamations about the many different MJ-12 documents from >>several different sources received in several locations by >>different people? <snip> >Hello Stan, James and List, >A couple of years ago I read a book about the history of British >Secret Services. >One chapter dealt with ex-employees who had become popular >authors and wrote espionage novels. >What made the Brits crazy was one author (can't recall the guy) >who, for the sake of not revealing a word about the reality of >the British Secret Services, had written a novel where >everything was false. >John Le Carr really pleased his ex-employers: half of what he >wrote was true, half was false. >The best way to hide the truth is always among lies. Hello Serge, Listers and EBK, During WW II, my uncle worked in the then, CIC (Counter Intelligence Corps). He continued to work for the Government nearly all his life, posing as one sort or another of blue collar working class stiff. He would take off for long periods without notice and the family always thought the worst. "Mike is out drinking ... he's out carousing... whatever." Mike was out allright, but doing the bidding of his employer. It was not until his untimely death last year that the truth of his life came out. I cannot imagine living a lie all of one's adult life, in order to hide one's line of work. You see, living that lie intrudes on your entire life. The kind of car you drive, the type of home in which you live, the level of comfort in your life .. it's all a sacrifice from my perspective. But from his and too many like him, it was duty, comraderie and a way of life. Living for the adrenaline rush becomes people like my uncle. Living it also entails living other lies. The ones they give you to spit out as truth. The end result, everyone seems to live their truth by respecting their lies. When truth comes into conflict with those who demand the truth, those who demand it lose. Every time. Lies. It's what we've become as a people isn't it? These days, you cannot tell truth from fiction. And they give it to you everywhere and everyway they can, in the news media, movies, TV, hell, even in computer games. And now, enter the Internet where liars can ply their trade in a nearly perfect soup of lies mixed with truth. If you can't tell the two apart, you've made a lot of people very happy. Are you all happy? You should be. "Show me the way to go home. I'm tired and I wanna go to bed. I had a lil' drink aboot an hour ago, an it went straight to my head..." Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 14 UpDate: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:14:50 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:50:57 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! Hola Mendoza, hello All, My last response to Peter Brookesmith was viewed by some List members as an unprovoked 'vicious attack' by an abductee on a skeptic. Disregarding the fact that the Duke deserves all the abuse he can get, (he gives every bit as good as he gets, and... more importantly, it helps to keep him humble!) we have also maintained a warm personal friendship over the years. We have shared a glass of wine or two and broken bread together. In spite of the fact that we are almost diametrically opposed in our views on the nature of UFOs and abductions, I like Peter personally very much. He feels the same about me. For 'newer' list members: If you catch me verbally abusing Peter Brookesmith on the UFO UpDates list it's because I like him! <LOL> I _only_ abuse my friends that way, never 'strangers'. ;) As some 'splitters' on this list will have you believe: Rather than being an example of a List member (me) "verbally bashing a skeptic" (Peter) our relationship is (has been) a shining example of how folks can strongly disagree and yet still maintain a real relationship and mutual acceptance. The friendship and past collaboration between us can be counted among the very few things that are "right" about ufology! Another example: I argue like hell with Dennis Stacy on this List. But, we have always maintained a friendship and openess with each other 'off list.' We 'talk' to each other off list, and bash out our intellectual/philosophical differences 'on list'. The point is, there is a 'relationship' that belies any verbal thorns or barbs that may appear on a list debate/dialog. We go at it like cats and dogs sometimes, but underneath it is a foundation of mutual caring and respect. You can't always judge a book by its cover! :) Not everything is as it first appears. Or, as some would have you believe. There are those who would divide everyone into 'camps' by taking something like my post to Peter and twisting it into some 'thing' that it is not. I am posting this because those who have not been members of this list for very long could easily view it the same way. I don't much like it when people point fingers and gossip without knowing what they are talking about. I am posting this on the open list. If I'm telling lies about, or misrepresenting my relationship with Peter or with Dennis or any of the other older members of the UpDates List, they are all now in a position to take me down at the ankles. I just want newer list members to know that there is no malice or bad feeling between Peter and myself. I have said it before and I'll publicly say it again, he's a 'glorious' bastard and I love him for it. Don't listen to the 'negative ninnies' that, (like the washwomen that they are,) have nothing better to do than to create problems where there are none, spread destructive gossip, and wag their tongues. Some of the ones who are always pointing out how divided everyone is, are the ones who work hardest at magnifying those differences and even capitalizing on it to create a little name for themselves. The pursuits of lonely, needy people. Buyer beware! Regards, John Velez -- ______________________________________________ A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center - www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm jvif@spacelab.net "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ______________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 14 UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:51:06 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 22:11:28 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - >Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:14:50 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! >To: updates@sympatico.ca <snip> >Another example: >I argue like hell with Dennis Stacy on this List. But, we have >always maintained a friendship and openess with each other 'off >list.' We 'talk' to each other off list, and bash out our >intellectual/philosophical differences 'on list'. The point is, >there is a 'relationship' that belies any verbal thorns or barbs >that may appear on a list debate/dialog. We go at it like cats >and dogs sometimes, but underneath it is a foundation of mutual >caring and respect. John, Well spoken! Do you mind if I say the same about Jerry Clark? I should have said something similar sooner, but who among us doesn't take things for granted until called up short? BTW, your mother wears combat boots! <BG!> <snip> >Regards, > >John Velez Mucho Likewise, Peregrinator Land Cruiser aficionado Dennis Stacy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 14 UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - From: Peter Brookesmith, Duke of Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 22:03:42 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 22:14:28 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - With the Duke of Mendoza's compliments: >Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:14:50 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >My last response to Peter Brookesmith was viewed by some List >members as an unprovoked 'vicious attack' by an abductee on a >skeptic. <and so on, snipped> Bizarre. Shall we get one thing straight? Very few attacks on my august and gracious person are unprovoked. That apart, as John implies, he knows that he has license to say exactly what he likes about me and, because we know and hug each other dearly, I'd be hard put indeed to regard whatever he had to say as "vicious". This is so even if what he had to say was true (guffaw). I've been moving house, without a phone line, and generally out of electronic touch for several days, and know that, thanks to some computer-related constipations, I've haven't seen all the posts to this List in the last few days. I haven't had a chance either to look at the archive to see what I've missed. I suspect I haven't even read John's latest post to/at me. I know I owe a couple of people replies (notably Liz Hamond) and will get to that (and the archive) after enjoying a restful weekend in some different mountains from usual. However. If that bracero Velez has been insulting those above his age & station I'll no doubt apply the usual correctives, such as John Cleese in his dressing gown looking even more ridiculous than usual. On the other hand, he may have a point. Unreconstructed, unrepentant and remorseless skeptic as I am about most things ufological, and thus sometimes feeling a little outnumbered occasionally in a forum like this, and appreciating support where I can get it, and so on: how anyone could imagine that John and I were on anything but the most benign of terms, just judging from our recent exchanges over the sale of abductees' files, is beyond me. Or, let's say: I'm not so lonely (snort) that I need anyone to misunderstand how I get on in real life with those I disagree with on our peculiar subject. best wishes Posttraumatic D. Mokeholder Fat Lady
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 15 UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:53:36 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:05:35 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - >Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:51:06 -0500 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:14:50 -0400 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca John and listfolk: >>I argue like hell with Dennis Stacy on this List. But, we have >>always maintained a friendship and openess with each other 'off >>list.' We 'talk' to each other off list, and bash out our >>intellectual/philosophical differences 'on list'. The point is, >>there is a 'relationship' that belies any verbal thorns or barbs >>that may appear on a list debate/dialog. We go at it like cats >>and dogs sometimes, but underneath it is a foundation of mutual >>caring and respect. >Well spoken! >Do you mind if I say the same about Jerry Clark? I should have >said something similar sooner, but who among us doesn't take >things for granted until called up short? And since we're having a big lovefest here, may I say the same about Dennis Stacy? Dennis and I have spent years challenging one another and exasperating the hell out of each other, and never once have -I thought of Dennis as less than a good friend and a real cool guy. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 15 UpDate: Re: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly - Cecchini From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 23:40:15 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:08:31 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly - Cecchini >Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 01:00:05 -0400 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >Subject: Re: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Below is a recent news article which reminds us that as far as >>being able to identify the true origins of some peculiar rocks >>and ultimately answers about our own origins, science is still >>in Kindergarten. >This is interesting in many ways. Thanks for posting it, Nick. >I was struck by the first paragraph of the article: >"Chemists at the University of California, San Diego have >discovered an isotope anomaly previously thought unique to >meteorites and other extraterrestrial rocks in sulfate minerals >on Earth." >This makes me think of Roger Leir, and the claim some people >make that an alleged implant he'd studied had been proved to be >extraterrestrial. Me too and it was one of the two reasons I called him up Wednesday night when he was a guest on Mike Siegel. I was the guy who called up around 3:40 into the show (2:40 into the 4-hour archived file), talked 100 mph, and mentioned the stuff about: 1. the Digital Angel implant, http://www.digitalangel.net/ note: on the show, I erroneously said it was ".com" 2. the UCSD announcement about the oxygen isotope signature anomalies in rocks: http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/newsrel/science/mcanomaly.htm http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0007/13earthrocks/ FWIW, Leir said they don't look at oxygen signatures, but I nevertheless still thought it was important & appropriate to mention it. >Actually, the lab doing the analysis had only commented that >the substance seemed similar to material found in meteorites. >So now we learn that one isotope formerly thought only to occur >in meteorites can also be found on earth. >Which helps remind us that the analysis was very preliminary, >and didn't prove anything one way or another. Exactly and it also reminds us that we should be a bit skeptical when any, say, geologist/archaeologist/paleontologist/et al declares the age of an object with absolute certainty based on, say, the kind of rock that object was found in.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 15 UpDate: 'Mockumentary' About The Roswell Crash From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 06:07:25 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:11:46 -0400 Subject: UpDate: 'Mockumentary' About The Roswell Crash Source: The Kansas City Star http://www.kcstar.com/item/pages/fyi.pat,fyi/37749978.711,.html Stig *** MOVIE REVIEW: SIX DAYS IN ROSWELL Fun 'Roswell' is an uncanny kind of 'mockumentary' By ROBERT W. BUTLER - The Kansas City Star Date: 07/13/00 22:15 1/2 "Six Days in Roswell" The comic documentary opens today and is unrated. Running time is 1 hour 22 minutes. Showing at the Fine Arts Theatre. ** The aliens have landed ... and they're bringing film Fun 'Roswell' is an uncanny kind of 'mockumentary' By now we're accustomed to "mockumentaries" -- fictional films that employ actors but attempt to pass themselves off as "real" by employing the narrative and technical conventions of genuine documentaries. It started 20 years ago with "This Is Spinal Tap" and in recent years has enjoyed a renaissance, thanks largely to "Waiting for Guffman." "Six Days in Roswell" isn't quite a mockumentary. It's a weird hybrid populated by real people, save for one character who is clearly fictional. The idea is to watch this fictional character interact with the real world. Since the setting is the 50th anniversary celebration of the notorious alleged 1947 crash-landing of an alien spaceship near Roswell, N.M., you can be assured that the real people in this movie are every bit as weird as the fictional one. Our guide through this world of UFO mania and conspiracy theorists is Richard Kronfeld, a 30ish nebbish who, we're told, leaves the soil of Minnesota for the first time in his life to travel to Roswell, where he can indulge his personal fantasy of being abducted by aliens. In fact, Kronfeld is a performer, screenwriter and star of a comedy series on Minneapolis public access TV. But for purposes of this film he plays a none-too-bright geek who lives with his mom, works in a factory and knows the "Star Trek" universe inside out. Once in Roswell, Kronfeld is like a kid on his first visit to a carnival midway. Obtaining lodging in a sweltering motor home parked outside a Roswell residence (the owner charges him $200 a night but defrays the cost if Kronfeld will do odd jobs), our hero ventures forth into a wacky world of alien-themed parades, films, museums, banquets, lectures and even an original musical comedy. Those he encounters tend to fall into two groups. First there are the locals who see aliens as a meal ticket and happily peddle alien cookies, alien fashions, alien ash trays -- even an alien haircut that turns Kronfeld's noggin into a fair approximation of a flying disc. Then there are the true believers: folks who claim to have seen UFOs or to have been abducted, government coverup theorists and intergalactic religious cultists. As directed by Timothy B. Johnson and edited by Roger Nygard (both were involved in the recent documentary "Trekkies," about "Star Trek" fanatics), "Six Days" rides a fine line between open derision of these folk (some are clearly nut cases) and the acknowledgement that something extraordinary happened in Roswell in 1947, though we may never get the full story. The film is amusing but only occasionally truly hysterical, with much of the humor stemming from the way in which it has been edited. Most subjects are allowed to utter only a sentence -- invariably one that makes them look very foolish -- before the movie cuts to yet another bizarre pronouncement from yet another colorful individual. Some of the interviewees (such as best-selling abduction author Whitley Strieber) obviously think they're dealing with a genuine documentary crew. Others seem to be in on the gag and appear even to have been fed lines so that Kronfeld can deliver a droll comeback or react with a bit of physical business. Holding it all together is Kronfeld's deadpan narration and bewildered-but-hopeful demeanor. He's so good at playing the intellectual and emotional naif that you're halfway through the movie before you realize he's putting us on. * To reach Robert W. Butler, movie editor for The Star, call (816) 234-4760 or send e-mail to bbutler@kcstar.com All content � 2000 The Kansas City Star
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 15 UpDate: 'Scooby-Doo And The Alien Invaders' From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 06:42:22 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:15:42 -0400 Subject: UpDate: 'Scooby-Doo And The Alien Invaders' Source: Business Wire Stig *** Warner Home Video Announces the Cosmic Event of the Year With the Release of the New, Feature-Length Movie "Scooby-Doo and the Alien Invaders" For the First Time Ever A Scooby-Doo Feature-Length Movie Debuts on DVD! Updated 2:43 PM ET July 13, 2000 Burbank, Calif. (Entertainment Wire) - On October 3, get ready for the side-splitting sleuthing of Scooby and the gang as Warner Home Video (WHV) presents the all-new, feature-length, direct-to-video movie "Scooby-Doo and the Alien Invaders" on VHS and DVD. Just in time for Halloween, the DVD includes a variety of special features including the making-of-the movie, the making-of-a Scooby-Doo video game, sample interactive games and Scooby's steps to solving a mystery. A cosmic case of UFOs, intergalactic intrigue and out-of-this-world romance launches Scooby, Shaggy and the Mystery, Inc. kids into their most unearthly adventure ever! Stranded in a remote desert town, the gang soon discovers the place is crawling with flying saucer buffs, secret scientists ... and less-than-friendly extra-terrestrials! Then, after being chased by ornery aliens and beamed aboard a UFO, something even weirder happens to Shaggy and Scooby - they fall head-over-heels for a beautiful photographer and her captivating canine companion! Now, as clues to the mystery of the alien invaders lead from a top-secret government research base to a huge network of caves hidden under the town, our love-struck heroes join the rest of the gang in a race to crack a case that re-defines the term "far out!" Available for $24.98 on DVD and for $19.96 on VHS, "Scooby-Doo and the Alien Invaders" stars the voice talents of Mark Hamill ("Star Wars") and Scott Innes ("Scooby-Doo and the Witch's Ghost," "Scooby-Doo on Zombie Island") and features one of today's hottest artists, Jennifer Love Hewitt ("Party of Five," "I Know What You Did Last Summer"), singing the legendary Scooby-Doo theme song. Loaded with special features, the "Scooby-Doo and the Alien Invaders" DVD includes the following: Mystery, Inc. Bios The Making of the Movie The Making of a Scooby-Doo Video Game Interactive Game Demos Scooby's Steps to Solving a Mystery Sneak Peeks of Scooby-Doo Videos Sneak Peeks of Family DVD's "Scooby fans will be excited that this feature-length, direct-to-video movie will be available on both VHS and DVD," said Mark Horak, WHV senior vice president, marketing. "Scooby-Doo has truly earned his place as a favorite among parents and children alike." Unprecedented Consumer Promotions Scooby fans will enjoy more than $15 in savings on various Scooby-Doo products inside every video package. An additional $3 rebate, featured on forms inside each VHS and DVD, is also available to parents who purchase $5 worth of Scooby-Doo merchandise and the "Scooby-Doo and the Alien Invaders" video cassette or DVD. Just in time for Halloween, Scooby-Doo Trick-or-Treat Bags will be packed on over one million Halloween videos and handed out in schools to kids in grades 1 - 2 nationwide. Kids and parents will head for their Scooby snacks as Burger King Corporation offers eight Scooby-Doo premium toys (three toys based on "Scooby-Doo and the Alien Invaders") along with a $1 coupon for the video cassette or DVD with the purchase of any kid's meal at participating restaurants in the US, while supplies last. The promotion is scheduled to run from October 9 through October 30. Pepsi-Cola Co. will offer a Limited Edition, talking Scooby-Doo plush toy for $6.99 plus proofs of purchase, as well as a $3 video rebate offer for the "Scooby-Doo and the Alien Invaders" VHS. In support of the DVD format, WHV will also provide a "buy three, get one free" offer on specially marked Pepsi products, containing an offer for up to a $50 rebate on a Toshiba DVD player. Frito Lay will promote the release of "Scooby-Doo and the Alien Invaders" on VHS with an offer for a Limited Edition, talking Scooby plush toy and a $3 video rebate on Frito-Lay Snacks, including Frito-Lay Variety Packs and Cracker Jacks Snacks. Additionally, AT&T Broadband will launch a national "Alien Invaders Adventure" sweepstakes promotion from 10/15-11/25 featuring a grand prize trip to Sedona, Arizona, and "Scooby-Doo and the Alien Invaders" videos as secondary prizes. Parents and children will love the "Scooby-Doo and the Alien Invaders" soundtrack from Kid Rhino featuring songs from the movie, and "Scooby-Doo and the Alien Invaders"-themed books from Scholastic are sure to be a hit among Scooby fans. In addition, Equity Toys will release the "Pogo Jumping Scooby-Doo" toy and Mattel Interactive and THQ Interactive will promote the video on millions of Scooby-Doo video games for the PC, Playstation, Gameboy and Nintendo 64 formats. On September 15, fans can log on to www.scoobydoo.com to get a sneak preview of "Scooby-Doo and the Alien Invaders", hear music from the soundtrack, see a special behind-the-scenes trailer of the movie and participate in live chats with Scooby and the gang. The Credits Hanna-Barbera And Warner Bros. Present "Scooby-Doo And The Alien Invaders" Starring the Voice Talents of Jeff Glen Bennett, Mary Kay Bergman, Jennifer Hale, Mark Hamill, Scott Innes, Candi Milo, Kevin Michael Richardson, Neil Ross, B.J. Ward, Audrey Wasilewski and Frank Welker Music Score by Louis Febre Theme Song Performed by Jennifer Love Hewitt Associate Producer Diana Ritchey Executive Producers Jean Maccurdy, William Hanna and Joseph Barbera Story by Davis Doi & Glenn Leopold Screenplay by Davis Doi & Lance Falk Based Upon Characters Created by Hanna-Barbera Productions Producer Davis Doi Director Jim Stenstrum "Scooby-Doo, Where Are You?" holds the title as one of the longest running animated series in television history. The series, which currently airs on Cartoon Network, is one of the network's top rated shows and is viewed more than 40 times per week. "Scooby-Doo on Zombie Island" and "Scooby-Doo and the Witch's Ghost" TV airings achieved the highest ratings for the network in both '98 and '99 consecutively. With operations in 78 international territories -- more than the video division of any other studio -- Warner Home Video commands the largest distribution infrastructure in the global video marketplace. WHV's film library is the largest of any studio, offering top quality new and vintage titles from the repertoires of Warner Bros. Pictures, Turner Entertainment Company, Castle Rock Entertainment, HBO Home Video and New Line Home Video. ----------------------------------------------------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 15 UpDate: Re: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly - Cecchini From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 22:36:47 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:19:09 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly - Cecchini >Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 23:19:06 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >Subject: Re: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Earlier today I got an e-mail from Chris Rutkowski who wrote >the following about this same topic. >"There's no question that we are fighting an uphill battle. >It's interesting to actually ask skeptics what they would >require in the way of absolute proof of alien visitation. >I've received a list ranging from manufactured items with >"impossible" radioactive decay signatures to live CNN >coverage of a tour inside a saucer. Even then though...." This reminds me of the similar logical dilemmas in theology and philosophy of science, namely: 1. How can an "entity" (for lack of a better word) ever _prove_ that it is "God"? (pick a god, any god...) Even if he/she/it/they rearranged the stars to spell out my name, how do I _know_ that they're not just some unfathomably advanced - and wholly natural - intelligence? 2. How can one even demonstrate that something is "paranormal"? What does "paranormal" even mean? Isn't everything, in a sense, "paranormal" until it is explained? - because keep in mind that (Copenhagen-style quantum phsyics be damned!) Science has to _assume_ (at least, it _should_ assume) that there's always a causal explanation to every observation But even if you embrace the illogical (and unscientific) notion that Causality can be violated, how do you _prove_ it?! - because to do so requires that you somehow go back in time to time T-1 to show that there were absolutely no Causes that led to the Effect at time T. ...and even if you could build a time machine like Thorne describes in last night's Nova, you'd still need to be omniscient to be able to state with certainty that: "There are no Causes in Universe at T-1 that can produce the observed Effect at T." Ah, it's all one big logical conundrum... ...and I won't even bother getting into the ontological discussion about what we can or can not actually "know", etc. Sorry if this seems off-topic, but I think it's relevant; e.g. how do I "know" I'm being abducted versus dreaming, etc. (insert discussion about the Nature of Reality, etc) Oh, sorry, I said I wouldn't do that...
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 15 UpDate: Re: Public Request To Robert Bigelow & NIDS - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 02:03:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:28:08 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Public Request To Robert Bigelow & NIDS - Velez >Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:43:33 -0400 >From: John <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Public Request To Robert Bigelow & NIDS >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Dear Mr. Bigelow, and to Whom it may concern at NIDS, >(Mr. Alexander?) >This is an excerpt from an e-mail I received from one of the >abductees whose files were purchased (and returned) by NIDS. I >have been communicating with several of the subjects in >question. >I received this today. (Thursday 7/13/00) >>John, I would suggest that there is an open discussion on >>that list (UFO UpDates) to find out a way to make Bigelow >>send back those files. A way needs to be found to contact the >>other people on the list that are not aware of the damage >>John Carpenter did by selling the files without informing >>anyone. This must not die down. PLEASE. >I cannot ignore an appeal like that. Ergo, the following note to >Mr. Bigelow and Mr. Alexander at NIDS. >Regarding the transfer of abductee files between yourself/NIDS >and Mr John Carpenter: >I have learned only recently that only twenty (20) of the 140 >subjects whose personal files NIDS purchased are even aware of >the transfer/transaction. At the very least, the subjects in >question should be notified that their files have been >transferred to someone other than the individual they first >approached and confided in. It may not be a 'legal' requirement >but it is a very human, ethical, and moral one. <snip> Hello All, Just hours after posting this I received a response from Dr. Alexander, NIDS: ----- I see that you have posted an open email to me on UFOMIND. There are a few facts that should be pointed out. I am sure it will not make the person who sent you the first email any happier. 1. The files were purchased by Robert Bigelow as a private person not as NIDS. That is probaly a small point. 2. The key issue would appear to be, did John Carpenter have the right to sell such cases. The answer appears to be yes. 3. It is not uncommon for persons other than the principal to have primary rights. For instance, generally photographers have rights to pictures, not the person being photographed. 4. Medical records are frequently used for research. That is how large studies are done and trends are discovered. In most cases the identity of the individuals are protected. That is the situation here. 5. If a person wishes to take further precautions, that is usually their responsibility and done before treatment. If there is any doubt about how these matters are handled, go read the fine print any any of the forms you fill out at a doctor's office. Dr. John Alexander ----- Hi again, I'm a lifetime New Yorker. This response from Dr. Alexander has got to be the classiest 'Phuk Ewe' that I have ever been on the receiving end of! <LOL> Dr. Alexander, now that I know you are reading these posts; may I impose on some of your time and pose a question or two. You wrote: >I am sure it will not make the person who sent you the first >email any happier. Doctor, if Vegas was taking action on it, I'd 'bet the farm' that you are absolutely correct. :) >4. Medical records are frequently used for research. That is >how large studies are done and trends are discovered. In most >cases the identity of the individuals are protected. That is >the situation here. That's true. However, it is my understanding that the identifying information of a substantial number of the subjects was _not_ "blacked out." The files that were returned to Mrs.C did not have any identifying information blacked out according to her. She also informs me that a portion (the first batch to go out) was 'edited' for such identifying data, but that in Mr. Carpenter's rush, the second batch went out 'unedited.' (ie; with identifying information such as names, addresses, social security numbers etc. all clearly visible.) Then there are the audio and videotapes of interviews and hypnosis sessions. How were those 'edited' in order to protect the anonymity of the subjects and in order to eliminate any verbal or visible identifying information? I imagine such an editing job would be labor intensive. Were the 'tapes' portion of the abductee files 'edited' at all? >5. If a person wishes to take further precautions, that is >usually their responsibility and done before treatment. Yes sir. I have been counselling abductees for weeks to secure assurances 'in writing' that their privacy, and anonymity will be protected. It's just a shame that so many have to get hurt in order to bring awareness of the situation to others. Doctor, I was appealing to you and to Robert Bigelow strictly on a humanitarian level. It is only fair (because of the nature of the information/reports that are contained in those files) that the individuals be made aware that their files have been sold. Allow me to repeat: I am not questioning Mr. Bigelow's right to purchase files of any kind. Nor am I questioning the right of legitimate research experts to have access to data/information of any kind. This is about "doing the right thing" for some fellow creatures. You know, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." They have a right (whether it written down somewhere or not) to know that their files have been sold. Mr.Carpenter should have taken care of that piece if business _prior_ to the sale, but that's all water under the bridge now. NIDS has the files. NIDS could do a little positive 'public relations' by notifying these folks, and then offering to return their files upon request. I would be surprised if Mr.Bigelow isn't seriously pissed off at Mr.Carpenter for dropping him and NIDS smack dab into the middle of a huge stinking load of 'very public' cowpie. Look at the bad publicity so far and _only_twenty_ of the 140 know. Imagine the cacaphony that 140 seriously upset and concerned individuals would produce! It could rapidly become a rotting albatross around ones neck. NIDS would be better off taking preventive measures by notifying these folks themselves. Stop any and all potentially distracting nonsense in its tracks so to speak. It would be a 'simple' but oh so grand gesture on the part of NIDS and Mr. Bigelow. Please reconsider. I am disappointed to hear your response. I had hoped that NIDS would "take the high road". Thank you for your time and your quick reply. The abductees involved will read your response. If they wish to pursue the issue they are free to do so. I have discharged the dictates of my conscience and done my best to help some folks out. Sincerely, John Velez Abductee
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 15 UpDate: Re: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly - Pressley From: Loy Pressley <lkpres@koyote.com> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 01:23:48 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:41:00 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly - Pressley >Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:09:44 -0700 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >Subject: Re: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Hello Greg, Nick and all: >If I have this right, somebody found materials on Earth (i.e. >in the ground) with isotope ratios previously thought only to >occur in meteorites or other space rocks. >Apparently, this is rare (the earthly samples) >Has anyone considered that the new "finds" are simply old meteor >fragments? That they could be the remains of meteors that hit >Earth thousands or millions of years ago? >If so, the original isotope ratio discriminators would still be >valid. Ne c'est pas? Hi Larry, I guess the question I would ask is, "are the isotope ratios in question stable over long periods of time?" If they are, then you, in fact, may be correct in that they have located only some very old meteor fragments. If the isotopes aren't stable and decay or combine with something else rather quickly, then, if there is no recent meteor craters in the local area, scientists will have to revise their thinking that these isotope ratios occur only in meteors. No big deal, either way. Loy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 15 UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 03:17:47 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:42:59 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - >Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 22:03:42 -0400 >From: Peter Brookesmith, Duke of Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >With the Duke of Mendoza's compliments: >>Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:14:50 -0400 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>My last response to Peter Brookesmith was viewed by some List >>members as an unprovoked 'vicious attack' by an abductee on a >>skeptic. ><and so on, snipped> >Bizarre. >Shall we get one thing straight? Very few attacks on my august >and gracious person are unprovoked. >That apart, as John implies, he knows that he has license to say >exactly what he likes about me and, because we know and hug each >other dearly, I'd be hard put indeed to regard whatever he had >to say as "vicious". <snip> [Signed] >Fat Lady Hello Peter, hello All, I must tell you Mendoza, that's the very first time I have actually _heard_ the "Fat Lady" sing! Until now it existed only as a concept or a threat. <LOL> Regards, and very best of luck at the new digs! "Casa Mendoza!" Sounds Regal anyway. I bow deeply at the waist to the Duchess. At least when someone _inevitably_ comes calling for your head, they'll know precisely where to find you. Happy 'horsing around' or whatever you call it. ;) John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 15 UpDate: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 02:29:00 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:47:53 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - Hatch >Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:07:34 -0400 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:47:52 +0100 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> >>Subject: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>This may be of interest: >>Source: WorldNetDaily >>http://www.worldnetdaily.com/ >>Wednesday, July 12, 2000 >>Little green men or the Air Force? >>by Charles Smith >>The Freedom of Information Act is wonderful when it comes to >>unexplained reports of extraterrestrial visits. The Federation >>of American Scientists, a Washington-based science advocacy >>group, recently discovered through the Freedom of Information >>Act that reports of UFO activity also corresponded with the >>flights of top- secret American spy aircraft. >>In the 1960s, the Central Intelligence Agency and the U.S. Air >>Force worked very hard to generate UFO cover stories for secret >>aircraft. The result was a hysterical joke on the world that >>echoes through to this day. > <snip> >Another belated discovery of a stupid CIA theory first published >several years ago. As antidote, see below: [-BM] >_____ >CIA'S UFO EXPLANATION IS PREPOSTEROUS >by Bruce Maccabee. >June 3, 1997 >The CIA recently published an article that describes its >involvement in the history of UFO phenomena. (The article is >published in the unclassified version of "Studies in >Intelligence," a twice-yearly CIA journal.) According to >historian and author Jerry Haines, the CIA believed that when >the U-2 high altitude spy plane began flying in early August, >1955, "commercial pilots and air traffic controllers began >reporting a large increase in UFO sightings." <snip> >Mr. Haines has written, > "According to later estimates from CIA officials who worked > on the U-2 project and the OXCART (SR-71 or Blackbird) > project, over half of all UFO reports from the late 1950's > through the 1960's were accounted for by manned > reconnaissance flights (namely the U-2) over the United > States. This led the Air Force to make misleading and > deceptive statements to the public in order to allay public > fears and to protect an extraordinarily sensitive national > security project. .. [ snip -LH ] .. " >According to Mr. Haines the U-2 was reported as a UFO because >"the early U-2's were silver (they were later painted black) and >reflected the rays of the sun, especially at sunrise and sunset. <snip> >The claim that the U-2 caused "over half of all UFO reports from >the late 1950's through the 1960's" is, to put it gently, >preposterous. [ <snip and complete agreement> >It created no contrail because of the lack of moisture at that >altitude. It was, after all, intended to be invisible! <snip> >Clearly there is no statistical support for a sudden increase >in the number of sightings at sunrise or sunset when the U-2 >started flying. In fact, the number of sightings in August 1955 >was lower than during the previous month. -BM - - - - Hello Bruce, John and list: I want to jump in here with some more boring statistics. Right now, the *U* Database has 17,684 UFO sightings listed, 7599 of those in the USA. This leaves the majority (57%) overseas. The U-2 was used mainly outside the borders of the United States as I recall, intelligence activities within the USA being left to the FBI. Thus not only USA but world statistics might tell us something. Here are total sightings per year, from all sources (not just bluebook) regardless of type, location strangeness etc.: YEAR USA WORLD 1950 268 380 1951 78 119 1952 568 859 ( USA mainly ) 1953 187 308 1954 202 1027 ( France mostly ) 1955 164 292 ( U2 flights from August on ) 1956 205 321 1957 300 354 ( Sputnik .. late in year ) 1958 114 245 1959 115 235 1960 74 137 Compare the World totals above from 1954 and 1955. If anything, the UFOs ran and hid when the U2 came out. So. The CIA / Haines wants to blame a "large increase in UFO sightings " on the U2? Bruce said best: "The CIA explanation is preposterous. " As for descriptions of the U2, indicating they were barely visible, comparable to a satellite perhaps? The *U* Database systematically excludes junk like that, to the best of my ability at least. IF the CIA was referring to junk misidentifications of U2s _only_, then yes... U2 sightings did indeed increase after the U2 first started flying. No argument there. Best wishes - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 15 UpDate: MacLaine Opens Website To Tell Of Her UFO Encounters From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 12:26:28 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:50:29 -0400 Subject: UpDate: MacLaine Opens Website To Tell Of Her UFO Encounters Source: The Wolf Files on ABC News, July 15, 2000, http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/WolfFiles/wolffiles.html Stig *** By Buck Wolf * Just because you have past life experiences doesn't mean you live in the past. Just ask Shirley MacLaine. The Oscar-winning actress now has a Web site to tell the world about her latest out-of-body adventures and UFO encounters. After a 500 mile trek across northern Spain this year to reinvigorate her spirit, MacLaine, who is 66 (in this lifetime), now wants to devote her self to teaching. "I think everyone goes through a period where they want to teach. I'm in that phase now," MacLaine tells The Wolf Files. "It's quite a rush to lead a group meditation with a thousand people. I help them to get in touch with past life experiences and resolve the troubles they face." By MacLaine's various accounts of her past lives, she's just about done it all. She's been a man from Atlantis, a peg-legged pirate, an Indian princess who telepathically communicates with elephants, and Charlemagne's mystical lover. But America's foremost advocate in New Age spiritualism has been conspicuously absent from the cyberworld. That seems out of character for someone with so many psychic friends. But MacLaine says all that's changed. "I'm going to bring together the best of the Internet on spiritualism and help people seek truth about their past lives and the world around them," MacLaine says. "I suppose aliens also use the Internet. If it is out there, why wouldn't they?" After a humble launch two months ago, ShirleyMacLaine.com is now getting its first PR thrust, as MacLaine begins meditation seminars in San Francisco, Las Vegas and Denver. She'll also be chatting online, appearing July 19 on Lifescape.com, one of the largest health sites on the Net. Writing Jokes for Leno If she's still the butt of Jay Leno's jokes, MacLaine doesn't care. "I heard his bit about me and Charlemagne, and I can laugh at it. Heck, I've even given Leno jokes," she says. "If you don't find life fun and funny, you are really missing the point." In her new book, The Camino: A Journey of the Spirit (Simon and Schuster), MacLaine recounts her past life love affair Charlemagne and tells how she saved him from impotence. MacLaine remembers herself as a coffee-skinned, black-haired woman who comes to the emperor as a healer. "He succumbed to the vibration of my touch and soon became aroused," he says. "His protectors left as I proceeded to consummate the healing." At another point in the book, Shirley travels � out of her body, we presume � back to the Garden of Eden, where her soul is re-embodied as both Adam and Eve. Of course, she relives humanity's first stirring of sex � as both man and woman. "Dear Reader," MacLaine writes at one point in The Camino, "it is here, at this point, that I have debated with myself whether to include the ensuing events in the telling of my Camino tale. � But I have always felt that if one cannot walk to the end of the precipice, then why walk at all?" One can only imagine the past lives of Warren Beatty, MacLaine's younger brother, whom she has described as "left brained" and "cerebral." Yet for all her eccentricities, MacLaine's popularity as a spiritual guide is astounding. When she embarked on a seminar series in the late 1980s, she filled 1,000-seat reception halls across the country � with each attendee paying $300. Midge Costanza, once a special assistant to President Jimmy Carter, served as the organizer of the "Connecting With the Higher Self" lecture series. Old Friends: Keep Quiet Her show business friends and advisers once told her to keep her controversial beliefs to herself. But ever since her 1983 bestseller Out on a Limb, she's found a giant audience for her own brand of spirituality � a mixture of several religions with an emphasis on Eastern traditions and a dash of UFOs. "Everything happens for a reason," MacLaine likes to remind an audience. But of course this is no ordinary Yogi talking. MacLaine is the legendary star got her big break in The Pajama Game, and went on to star in such classics as The Turning Point and Terms of Endearment. When Paramount was looking for her in 1983 to tell her she had been nominated for an oscar, they finally found her holed up in a pyramid in Egypt. She had been sleeping in a Sarcophagus. Dancing on the edge of celebrity, she says Peter Sellers visited her after his death and told her, "Keep up the research." One might imagine that with the new ShirleyMacLaine.com Web site, he could have just sent e-mail rather than appearing as a milky apparition above her bed. Her old Rat Pack buddy, Frank Sinatra, once said of MacLaine, "It's amazing what a broad will do for a buck." Still, MacLaine seems to enjoy her role as America's favorite kook, and she doesn't think it hurts her as a teacher. "I am who I am," MacLaine. "People will see what they want to see. My way works for me." * Buck Wolf is a producer at ABCNEWS.com. The Wolf Files is a weekly feature. If you want to receive notice weekly when a new column is published, join the *e-mail list. E - M A I L U S Got a strange but true story? *Send it to us. "If you don't find life fun and funny, you are really missing the point." Shirley MacLaine W E B L I N K *Shirley MacLaine *Lifescape Copyright �2000 ABC News Internet Ventures. Click here for Terms of Use and Privacy Policy and Internet Safety Information applicable to this site.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 15 UpDate: Re: Sniffing Out E.T. - Goldstein From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 13:53:39 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:55:52 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sniffing Out E.T. - Goldstein >Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:28:13 +0200 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> >Subject: Sniffing Out E.T. >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Source: ABC News, >http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DyeHard/dyehard.html >Stig >*** >Sniffing Out E.T. >The Latest Device for Finding E.T. Is a Nose -- of Sorts >[Scientists may not know what alien life looks like -- or whether it >exists. But they�re guessing they can at least search for proteins >that signal life's presence. (Fotos International/Archive Photos)] >By Lee Dye >Special to ABCNEWS.com >** >July 13 -- We've looked for E.T. but haven't seen him, and we've >listened but haven't heard him, so now scientists are working on >a plan to see if they can "sniff" him out. >It's not exactly as though they expect to detect his >under-tentacle deodorant. Instead, they hope to inhale a few >molecules on some distant celestial body and see if those >molecules are specific proteins that bear the clear signature >of life. <snip> I found the above to be great news. I am also in awe at our state of knowledge and technology to be able to design a small machine able to separate molecules and sniff out proteins. It brings up a memory to illustrate how far we have come. When I flew in Vietnam, intelligence had a few helicopters equipped as "sniffer ships". When flying low above the jungle, the machine would sample the air to find the hidden enemy. It was designed to identify smells incidental to human occupation. I thought it was advanced at that time. Oops, I hope it is not still classified.<g>I have no idea whether it was very successful. I only had a secret clearance, not "cosmic warrior". Dr. Fogel's plans to be able to sniff the possible proteins in life on other planets is a quantum leap from "sniffer ships". Josh Goldstein
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 15 UpDate: First Man To Orbit [was: UCSD Scientists Find Rock From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:14:12 -0300 Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:01:26 -0400 Subject: UpDate: First Man To Orbit [was: UCSD Scientists Find Rock >Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 23:19:06 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >Subject: Re: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 01:00:05 -0400 >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >>Subject: Re: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly >>To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:11:30 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >>>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >>>Subject: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >I would like to add a comment I added in my reply to Chris >regarding some recently revealed space facts, such as the first >cosmonaut to orbit the Earth (and return back alive). It was >Vladimir Ilyushin and not Yuri Gagarin. >Here we are trying to learn something about the possible alien >(UFO) space program only to find out that our own space program >which we thought we knew all about is just as mysterious, if not >more, than the alien one. Hi Nick, I posted that information [re Ilyushin preceeding Gagarin into space] some months ago and was queried by Bob Young as to the validity of same but I was only able to cite a Canadian documentary on the Space Race I'd watched. Ilyushin was a test pilot - evidence the many aircraft bearing his name - while Gagarin was a popular communist and more in keeping with the Soviet's idea as to what an astronaut should look and act like. Ilyushin's space flight preceeded Gagarin's by about three days. Gagarin presumabably learned of this fact some years later, became belligerant and alcoholic, over the years and began shooting his mouth off, badmouthing the Soviet regime. He eventually died in a suspicious jet crash some years later. I'd like to nail down a good source on this. Don Ledger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 15 UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:17:33 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:04:39 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Bourdais >Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:45:24 -0400 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >Subject: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >The one thing the Woods have done, is brought to light that SOM >1-01 came from Kirtland AFB. What honest, upstanding, honorable >military man associated with Bill Moore also came from Kirtland? Are we to understand that the answer to your question is Richard Doty? Do you mean that Master Sergent Richard Doty was, presumably, the author of SOM1-01 ? Gildas Bourdais
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 15 UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 09:54:31 +0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:08:24 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - >Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:53:36 -0500 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:51:06 -0500 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:14:50 -0400 >>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>Subject: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca <snip> >And since we're having a big lovefest here, may I say the same >about Dennis Stacy? Dennis and I have spent years challenging >one another and exasperating the hell out of each other, and >never once have -I thought of Dennis as less than a good friend >and a real cool guy. >Jerry Clark Great suffering baragrugous ZOT (!) -- coffee break's OVER, guys! Put out the metaphorical smokes and get back on your HEADS! Either that, or let's hold hands and sing some SONGS! <g>. BTW -- anybody catch Dan Sheehan on the Rense show? Very few people I know can use the word paradigm and not earn a sneer from me -- he's one of 'em. Wuff! Lehmberg@snowhill.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 15 UpDate: Former Airliner Pilot Admits to UFO Sighting From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 09:30:59 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:13:18 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Former Airliner Pilot Admits to UFO Sighting SOURCE: La Vanguardia Digital DATE: 07.14.2000 FORMER IBERIA COMMANDER SAYS: "I SAW A UFO" by Pedro Madueo "I'm 65 years old and flew for 40 years in the Air Force and then for Iberia. I now run a piloting school. I was born in Madrid, my father was a general in the Air Force. The day I saw a UFO from my aircraft I wasn't able to sleep00I havent stopped thinking about it all this time. I've just completed [my book] "Destino Cielo" about all my years of piloting and my UFO Encounter" --Juan Lorenzo Torres: "It was on a collision course" -- The UFO GUY The son of an Air Force general, a combat pilot over the Sahara, companion in arms of the King (I see him, with his wife in several photos sharing a meal with Their Majesties), an Iberia pilot, director of an aviation academy...It could not have been easy for this military man to wax eloquent on the "UFO subject" as he calls it. It must be equally embarrassing for his former comrades to discuss Juan's calm "wackiness" as he declassifies documents and recalls distant lights. However, I've enjoyed more his memoirs about the Sahara and the Spanish occupation, his obedient "little moors" and his dandruff-covered camels than dizzying myself with the pages of the UFO universe. --Lluis Amiguet Q: Why do you insist on remembering those lights now? A: I think many people would like to know that my crew and i saw something that no one has been able to explain to this very day. Q: When [was this]? A: November 4, 1968 at 18 hours and 23 minutes. Q: Where? A: Over Sagunto, Valencia. I was the captain of a Caravelle 6-R, a very modern vehicle at the time, covering the Iberia route between London and Alicante (IB Flight 249). There were no incidents until we reached Barcelona. At some 100 miles away, the Barcelona tower ordered us to abandon level 310 -- 31,000 feet-- and descend to level 280. Q: Why? A: British Caledonia was heading for us in the opposite direction, so we were asked to descend to avoid a possible collision. Q: So? A: Well, I had already ordered dinner and the trays were in the cabin, but a that atltitude we were shaving the clouds, which produce a slight though uncomfortable turbulence. Having one's dinner that way was thoroughly disagreeable. I asked my co-pilot to visually monitor if the opposing traffic could be seen, in order that we could return to our proper level to have a peaceful dinner. Q: Did he see it? A: We thought so. He said: "I have it in sight", but what we saw instead was a flash and a light coming toward us at an impressive speed. Q: {Were you] startled? A: And scared. That thing was on a collision course. Q: What did you do? A: We dumped the trays and our jaws dropped, since that blinding light was nothing we'd seen before. We called the stewardess to witness the thing. None of us knew what it could be. Q: What did the light do? A: It stayed 10 meters from my plane's nose cone. It went up and down and moved from right to left, but always returned to the same spot, 10 meters away from my plane. Q: Did you contact the Barcelona tower? A: Well, it wasn't so easy. What could I say? We were all afraid of ridicule. I tried contacting the object in both English and Spanish, then I contacted the Barcelona VOR and asked if there was air traffic in the area. I was told that their radar coverage was limited to 60 miles. Q: So what did you do then? A: I made an emergency broadcast on the 121.5 channel so that all nearby aircraft could communicate with us. Q: And after that? A: We all stared at the lights. There was a large light and two small ones on the sides. I attempted a primitive communication system using my landing lights. I told it in Spanish: "On and off twice means no, on and off once means yes." Q: And did you get along? A: I think we did. I asked it several questions, among others: "Friend or foe?" Q: What did you answer? A: There was logic in their movements. Q: How long did the sighting last? A: Somewhat more than ten minutes. Q: That's a long time. A: Yes. Q: What did you do upon landing? A: That night we all slept poorly, as my crew told me the next day. We all made a pact of silence, but lieutenant colonel Abreu of the Barcelona tower, called me when I landed at El Prat and told me that the radar coverage for eastern Spain had recorded those "UFOs". I asked for a copy of these records and he gave me one. Q: Do you still have that copy? A: No, because 4 month later, another Caravelle piloted by commander Ordovas had another sighting in the area, flying with the same flight engineer, Jose Cuenca! The news made it into the media because one of the flight attendants had a boyfriend who was a journalist. Q: So the rumor spread... A: Yes. Journalists began calling and four months later Lt. Col Ugarte and a lawyer showed up and the copy was confiscated. Q: Well! A: After reporting the sighting, Lt. Col Ugarte concluded that what the co-pilot, engineer, flight attendant and I had seen was in fact Venus! Q: Venus? A: Yes, Venus. Venus was stuck to my plane's nose, I never realized it! Q: What made them say that? A: I guess that their military culture finds it very embarrassing not to have an explanation. Venus is as good an answer as any. Q: And what do you think? A: I thought it could have been--why not?--an alien craft or something by alien creatures. When military intelligence desclassified the documents on the sightings, I noticed the radar records were absent. Lt. Col. Abreu told me the radar had recorded three UFOs. Q: Do you believe in them? A: I think I saw something from a non terrestrial culture. Q: Do you have any other data? A: I'd say the same thing. The ones in charge will deny what they see before accepting what they can't explain or control. And of course, it was Venus. Translation (c) 2000. Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU) Special thanks to Javier Garcia Blanco (LACIP)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 15 UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 14:25:12 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 14:42:03 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - >Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 09:54:31 +0600 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> >Subject: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:53:36 -0500 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:51:06 -0500 >>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>>Subject: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:14:50 -0400 >>>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>>Subject: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! >>>>To: updates@sympatico.ca ><snip> >>And since we're having a big lovefest here, may I say the same >>about Dennis Stacy? Dennis and I have spent years challenging >>one another and exasperating the hell out of each other, and >>never once have -I thought of Dennis as less than a good friend >>and a real cool guy. >>Jerry Clark >Great suffering baragrugous ZOT (!) -- coffee break's OVER, >guys! Put out the metaphorical smokes and get back on your >HEADS! Either that, or let's hold hands and sing some SONGS! ><g>. BTW -- anybody catch Dan Sheehan on the Rense show? Very >few people I know can use the word paradigm and not earn a sneer >from me -- he's one of 'em. Wuff! >Lehmberg@snowhill.com Dear Lehmberg, (as he exhales smoke), Smoking is dangerous to one's health, Al. It causes disease. It can make the smoker and the innocent bystander ill. Did you know that? And aliens are the first to acknowledge this fact. Show me _one_ alien with a cigarette and I'll show you an abductee blowing smoke. Joe Camel
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 15 UpDate: Bruni's Column - July 2000 From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 19:24:42 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 14:44:17 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Bruni's Column - July 2000 Bruni�s Column July 2000 Check out: www.ufocity.com and click on Bruni's column Book Reviews The UFOs That Never Were (Randles, Roberts & Clarke) Intruders in the Night (Christopher Martin) Items of Interest Did Clinton Mess Up The Truth Being Told? Life on Mars? � Do These New Pictures Reveal Structures on Mars? (pictures must have got lost in cyberspace, working on it) Until next month Georgina Bruni
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 15 UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 14:55:04 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 22:16:06 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Mortellaro >Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 12:26:28 +0200 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> >Subject: MacLaine Opens Website To Tell Of Her UFO Encounters >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Source: The Wolf Files on ABC News, July 15, 2000, >http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/WolfFiles/wolffiles.html >Stig >By Buck Wolf <snip> Thank you Stig, as usual, Ms. MacLaine's site is interesting. But one of the pictures shown was strange an new to me. I have never seen before. Does anyone know anything about this photo on her site: http://www.shirleymaclaine.com/images/ufo/ufotruck.jpg I am curious about it's origins. Anyone? Jim Mortellaro
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 15 UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - YoungB From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 16:22:19 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 22:17:38 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - YoungB >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:11:42 -0400 >Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:51:37 -0400 >Subject: UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Maccabee <snip> >Actually mountain top mirage is the official AF explanation >Problem: mountain top mirages stay over the mountain tops. Also >the angular spread of observation is far to great (far left to >far right) Mirages are not noted for creating bright flashes of >light. Hi, Bruce: It would probably depend upon what the original image was. There are mirages of stars and ship's lights and vehicle lights. Very few blink, but presumably if they were this could be part of the mirage image. I recall a few years ago we had an exchange regarding the possibility of specular reflections from steep ice or snow slopes being a factor. Still smiling, Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 15 UpDate: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc From: Murray Bott <murrayb@win.co.nz> Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 09:08:53 +1200 (NZST) Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 22:21:10 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc Greetings List Here in New Zealand we have a "Privacy Act". While I haven't studied this at all it is often spoken about. I understand that any person can request the return of _all_ copies if private details they have provided or files containing their details. (both originals and photocopies) This could be a problem for us UFO researchers who have even accepted a simple "Sighting Report Questionaire" from such people. Regards, Murray Email : murrayb@win.co.nz Voice : 64-9-6345285 Snail : PO Box 27117, Mt Roskill, Auckland 1030, New Zealand
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 15 UpDate: Re: First Man To Orbit - Easton From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 22:51:21 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 22:22:07 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: First Man To Orbit - Easton Regarding: >Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:14:12 -0300 >From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca> >Subject: First Man To Orbit [was: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly] >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Ilyushin's space flight preceeded Gagarin's by about three days. >I'd like to nail down a good source on this. Don, If you haven't seen the following before, it might be helpful: http://www.lostcosmonauts.com/ilyushin.htm James Easton. E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk www.ufoworld.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 15 UpDate: GUFOA Web Site From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 01:44:15 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 22:27:13 -0400 Subject: UpDate: GUFOA Web Site Once upon a time, there were simply anomalous UFO cases, some with proven or likely explanations and others which were more intriguing. It's always welcome, if rare, to come across something which is largely devoid of the bogus material which proliferates and I would suggest the Georgian Ufological Association [GUFOA] web site is worth investigating: http://www.gufoa.kheta.ge/english.html It currently features a 'News' story that might be of interest: 'Old women found Live ET!': Any ideas what the 'tiny ET' might be? The UFO cases documented are also a notable perspective from Eastern Europe and the web site presentation is commendable (plus seemingly hosted on a fast web server). Although the photo gallery largely consists of hoaxes by Billy Meier and others; the 'ET' gallery comprises those relatively well known images from the Roswell Museum/Steve Johnson's alien model on sale, etc., also commendable is a critique of the prank 'Meier' photos, under "Edward "Billi" Meier - Contacts Whit Pleades". "Contacts of the Third Kind in Georgia" and an informed assessment of "THE SECRET KGB UFO FILES" documentary are recommended reading. I've always been surprised the latter material received such comparatively scant attention. Doubtless, everything therein was hoaxed and seen to be a commercially fruitful video project taking advantage of the 'alien autopsy' footage's earnings, however, I thought there were more questions than answers provided, especially given the scale of this claimed, genuine evidence. Overall, the view from Georgia is a refreshing and perhaps, economic circumstances appreciated, a remarkable contribution to ufology. Best of all - the 'Smarties' object from 'UFO over Kiketi'. This has to be the coolest UFO I've ever seen. Beam me up spotty... James Easton. E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk www.ufoworld.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 15 UpDate: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 7-15-00 From: Rense E-News <e-news@the-i.net> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 20:14:47 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 22:30:35 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 7-15-00 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Jeff Rense Weekly E-News ---------------------------------------------------------------- The Week Ahead 7-16-00 thru 7-22-00 Guests, Announcements, Week's Top Stories From sightings.com Jeff Rense E-News is distributed exclusively by Free Subscription. --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- * SPECIAL UPCOMING GUEST * Note - Shirley will be Jeff's guest on Tuesday, 7-18. Shirley MacLaine Opens Website To Tell Of Her UFO Encounters By Buck Wolf The Wolf Files on ABC News, July 15, 2000, http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/WolfFiles/wolffiles.html From Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk 7-15-00 Just because you have past life experiences doesn't mean you live in the past. Just ask Shirley MacLaine. The Oscar-winning actress now has a Web site to tell the world about her latest out-of-body adventures and UFO encounters. After a 500 mile trek across northern Spain this year to reinvigorate her spirit, MacLaine, who is 66 (in this lifetime), now wants to devote her self to teaching. "I think everyone goes through a period where they want to teach. I'm in that phase now," MacLaine tells The Wolf Files. "It's quite a rush to lead a group meditation with a thousand people. I help them to get in touch with past life experiences and resolve the troubles they face." By MacLaine's various accounts of her past lives, she's just about Done it all. She's been a man from Atlantis, a peg-legged pirate, an Indian princess who telepathically communicates with elephants, and Charlemagne's mystical lover. But America's foremost advocate in New Age spiritualism has been conspicuously absent from the cyberworld. That seems out of character for someone with so many psychic friends. But MacLaine says all that's changed. "I'm going to bring together the best of the Internet on spiritualism and help people seek truth about their past lives and the world around them," MacLaine says. "I suppose aliens also use the Internet. If it is out there, why wouldn't they?" After a humble launch two months ago, ShirleyMacLaine.com is now Getting its first PR thrust, as MacLaine begins meditation seminars in San Francisco, Las Vegas and Denver. She'll also be chatting online, appearing July 19 on Lifescape.com, one of the largest health sites on the Net. Writing Jokes for Leno If she's still the butt of Jay Leno's jokes, MacLaine doesn't care. "I heard his bit about me and Charlemagne, and I can laugh at it. Heck, I've even given Leno jokes," she says. "If you don't find life fun and funny, you are really missing the point." In her new book, The Camino: A Journey of the Spirit (Simon and Schuster), MacLaine recounts her past life love affair Charlemagne And tells how she saved him from impotence. MacLaine remembers herself as a coffee-skinned, black-haired woman Who comes to the emperor as a healer. "He succumbed to the vibration of my touch and soon became aroused," he says. "His protectors left as I proceeded to consummate the healing." At another point in the book, Shirley travels - out of her body, we presume - back to the Garden of Eden, where her soul is re-embodied as both Adam and Eve. Of course, she relives humanity's first stirring of sex - as both man and woman. "Dear Reader," MacLaine writes at one point in The Camino, "it is here, at this point, that I have debated with myself whether to include the ensuing events in the telling of my Camino tale. ... But I have always felt that if one cannot walk to the end of the precipice, then why walk at all?" One can only imagine the past lives of Warren Beatty, MacLaine's Younger brother, whom she has described as "left brained" and "cerebral." Yet for all her eccentricities, MacLaine's popularity as a Spiritual guide is astounding. When she embarked on a seminar series in the late 1980s, she filled 1,000-seat reception halls across the country - with each attendee paying $300. Midge Costanza, once a special assistant to President Jimmy Carter, served as the organizer of the "Connecting With the Higher Self" lecture series. Old Friends: Keep Quiet Her show business friends and advisers once told her to keep her controversial beliefs to herself. But ever since her 1983 bestseller Out on a Limb, she's found a giant audience for her own brand of spirituality - a mixture of several religions with an emphasis on Eastern traditions and a dash of UFOs. "Everything happens for a reason," MacLaine likes to remind an audience. But of course this is no ordinary Yogi talking. MacLaine is the legendary star got her big break in The Pajama Game, and went on to star in such classics as The Turning Point and Terms of Endearment. When Paramount was looking for her in 1983 to tell her she had been nominated for an oscar, they finally found her holed up in a pyramid in Egypt. She had been sleeping in a Sarcophagus. Dancing on the edge of celebrity, she says Peter Sellers visited Her after his death and told her, "Keep up the research." One might Imagine that with the new ShirleyMacLaine.com Web site, he could have just sent e-mail rather than appearing as a milky apparition above her bed. Her old Rat Pack buddy, Frank Sinatra, once said of MacLaine, "It's amazing what a broad will do for a buck." Still, MacLaine seems to enjoy her role as America's favorite kook, and she doesn't think it hurts her as a teacher. "I am who I am," MacLaine. "People will see what they want to see. My way works for me." _____ Buck Wolf is a producer at ABCNEWS.com. The Wolf Files is a weekly feature. If you want to receive notice weekly when a new column is published, join the *e-mail list. Copyright (c)2000 ABC News Internet Ventures. Click here for Terms of Use and Privacy Policy and Internet Safety Information Applicable to this site. --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- * EDITORS CORNER * The feedback on the newsletter each week (and especially the Guest Corner) is always fascinating - and always appreciated, whether it's thumbs-up or thumbs-down. I wish I could publish all the responses we get. They are an education in themselves. I remain convinced this is one of the most intelligent, aware and awake audience that exists on the planet. We always want to know what you think. For one reason, YOU are the most important in this whole equation. For another, it's a great barometer for me as editor of the newsletter to know what you want to see each week. By the way - to answer a question that shows up frequently, Jeff doesn't put together the newsletter. He has his hands very full coordinating and managing the almost infinite variety of details necessary to produce a radio show that has not only stood the test of time but now is expanding at an incredible rate. Over the course of this year and a half of association with Jeff, I have developed the highest respect for the man in his abilities, his fortitude, his energy, his kindness and his ethics - not to mention an unequalled talent. He deserves every bit of success he ever gets. He's earned it the hard way. So send any newsletter comments to me at e-news@the-i.net or just hit return and it'll get to me. I pass most of them on to Jeff but do so in an organized fashion which saves him time. Do send Jeff any kudos about the show you think he should have, though - sometimes after a particularly long, frustrating 18- hour day, there can be no better gift than to know that you are appreciated. The Guest Corner will return next week. As always, guests have an unedited opportunity to say what they wish. As on the show, information and ideas are presented �as is�. It is up to the discernment of the reader to agree or disagree. I thank you, Jocelyn Savage --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- Past and present guests: to be showcased in "The Guest Corner", please email mailto:e-news@the-i.net?Subject=Guest_Corner Opinions and facts presented in the Guest Corner are those of the writer and do not necessarily represent those of Jeff Rense, Sightings, sightings.com or the newsletter editor. --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- "Yes, we did produce the near perfect Republic. But will they keep it, or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom. Material abundance without character is the surest way to destruction.� -- Thomas Jefferson --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- The Constitution Explained The author gave up his law practice in Chicago in 1918 to devote his entire time, not only to the Constitution itself, but to the vast amount of historical material that throws light on its making and meaning. Originally published 1927 http://www.hiddenmysteries.com/redir/index14.html --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- * TOP STORIES * Just a few of last week's most intriguing! http://sightings.com * Former Iberia Airline Pilot Reveals Amazing UFO Encounter * Find Out How Unsafe Your County Is And Exactly Who Is Polluting It * Beef & Poultry With Cancer, Pus, Lesions, & Disease Approved For You To Eat! * Tornado Kills 8, Injures 79 In Alberta, Canada * HIllary Jewish Slurs Claimed In New Book * Stripping The Power From Renegade Courts * Why Jeff Rense And Brad Steiger Don't Like Ouija Boards! * Did Time Speed Up 35 Years Ago? - 1972 Article By Brad Steiger * US Navy Sprayed BioWarfare CHEMTRAILS On Its Own Ships And Men * How Microwave Transmission Towers Are Camouflaged * New One Pixel Gif Micro Web Tracking Devices Cause Concern * DEA Confirms Sufficient Grounds To Remove Marijuana From Hard Drugs Schedule * Russia Readies Deadly New Cruise Misslie Warship For China * Spermicide Cream Actually Worsens HIV Infection Risk * The True Story About Mark Phillips (?) - Controversial Figure Exposed? * FBI's New 'Carnivore' Can Monitor Millions Of Emails Per Second * Computer Firms Running Out Of Power - US Power Demand Up 35% In 10 Years * Europe Leads Way In Lunar Exploration - US Lags * Suppression Of ET Knowledge & Translation Of The Bible Conspiracy * Senator Richard Lugar's Statement On Chemtrails * Water Supply Problems Now Plague Much Of The US * Washington Forestry Manager Has Eyewitness Bigfoot Encounter * Camp David - Good Intentions And The Road To Hell * NWO Wars - Returns Of The Incans * Plant Oils Will Replace Petroleum In Coming Years * Dragon Lady � Part I * Canadian Biker Wars Heat Up - Over 140 Murders To Date * Roads Melt In Worst European Killer Heatwave In Living Memory * Botswana Faces Extinction From AIDS Says Its President * Insulin-Producing Cells Grown In Lab Could Revolutionize Diabetes Treatment * Lawsuit Charges Netscape With Spying On Users * Critical $100 Million US Anti-Missile Test Fails To Hit Warhead Read these stories and more at http://www.sightings.com --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- WHAT'S THIS NONSENSE? Those lovable scamps, Linky & Dinky, find the DARNdest Web Links, and compile them for us in a highly disorganized, scattershot manner... from the brainy, to the bizarre, to the obtuse, Linky & Dinky rule! Always a FUN stop. Don't miss the Magic Trick, it's a DOOZY! http://www.linkydinky.com --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- * THIS WEEK'S GUESTS * 7-16-00 thru 7-22-00 (Please note Jeff's Guest schedule can change due to late breaking stories, etc). SUN 7-16 Richard Sauder, PhD: Top Ten Mars Anomaly Photos! From Israel - Barry Chamish: Return Of Giants Tour MON 7-17 Kathleen Keating: Fatima And End Times Gary Val Tenuta and Michael Morton: Alphanumeric Codes/Symbols TUE 7-18 Shirley Maclaine: UFOs And Her Paranormal Life WED 7-19 David Morrison: Israel's Rabin Murder From England: Ancient British Explorers In America THU 7-20 Dr. Louis Turi: Divine Astrology Readings FRI 7-21 Pending Live Real Audio Broadcasts & Archives: http://www.sightings.com --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- The Fenton Bible The Complete Bible in Modern English, as translated by Ferrar Fenton, is again available. This version is a rare translation and very hard to locate. 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Past issues are archived at http://www.egroups.com ------------------------- To subscribe: mailto:rense_e-news-subscribe@egroups.com To unsubscribe: mailto:rense_e-news-unsubscribe@egroups.com -------------------------- Jeff Rense Weekly E-News is independently produced by TGS in cooperation with Jeff Rense. The material and views expressed herein do not necessarily reflect those of Jeff Rense, sightings.com, or the Jeff Rense - Sightings Radio Program, except for the *Jeff's Desk* segment. --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>--
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 15 UpDate: Roswell Welcomes Out-of-Towners From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 18:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 22:32:00 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Roswell Welcomes Out-of-Towners Greetings list - Source: ABC News http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/travel/DailyNews/Roswell000715.html Welcoming Real Out-of-Towners Roswell, N.M. Celebrates Its UFO Heritage By Andres Ybarra The Associated Press R O S W E L L, N.M., July 15 � Santa Fe has Georgia O�Keeffe. Fort Sumner has Billy the Kid. And Roswell? Roswell has E.T. This small southeastern New Mexico town, known as the alien capital of the world, may not have many artifacts to show off like other historic sites. But it�s still a huge draw for tourists fascinated by the unknown. "It is a source of pride," said Roswell native Jessica Mysza, a visitor to the International U.F.O. Museum and Research Center. The museum, the town�s main attraction, is a warehouse of information on the notorious alleged flying saucer crash landing near Roswell in 1947. Little green men decorate the outside of the building in a town where even the Wal-Mart features a picture of a big alien head and a fast-food restaurant has a sign welcoming aliens. The theme of government cover-up hangs heavy in the building with walls covered with pictures of the alleged crash site and documents of testimonies. However, despite the fact that many of the museum�s workers have a strong belief in UFOs, the goal is not to convince people of alien existence, museum director Carol Syska said. "We just ask you to come through with an open mind, and then make up your own mind," said Syska, a retired Los Alamos National Laboratory worker. Is the Truth Out There? The 8-year-old museum sees about 180,000 visitors a year, she said. There is no admission charge and most of the workers, including Syska, are volunteers. A history of the 1947 incident is presented through pictures and testimonies of people involved, including two of the museum�s three founders. Copies of government documents about the incident acquired through the Freedom of Information Act also are on display. Pictures and written testimonies of UFO sightings around the world also are chronicled � including those proved to be hoaxes. "It�s still a living museum. It�s not just a dead museum," Syska said. "It shows things that are still happening today." The only physical evidence on display is a small piece of metal, allegedly debris from the crashed spacecraft. Syska says the metal is much thinner and lighter than the jeweler�s junk the government says it is. That piece of "spacecraft" is 13-year-old Dustin Dearman�s favorite exhibit item. He�s Mysza�s cousin, visiting from Monahans, Texas. "I think it�s a good place for reading," said Mysza, who isn�t convinced UFOs exist. "But I really think it�s they�ve done well with the information they present. It�s very informative." The building also houses a research center with books and videos about UFOs. Databases with information on sightings also are available. The Mystery and Enigma After the tourists have their fill on the information side of Roswell�s aliens, they can venture down the street to alien gift shops for the entertainment aspect, store owner Stacy Wolkwitz said. Wolkwitz�s Alien Zone store, a block from the museum, sells T-shirts, key chains and other alien paraphernalia. The store also features an alien studio filled with several scenes ranging from aliens barbecuing to an Area 51 toxic spill. Visitors can pay $2 to take their own pictures in the studio. "I think the people really are interested in the mystery and the enigma about all of this," Wolkwitz said. --- Best regards, - Blair Cummins ufoblair@hotmail.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 15 UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Cuthbertson From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 22:02:25 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 23:18:00 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Cuthbertson >Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 14:55:04 -0400 (EDT) >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Subject: Re: MacLaine Opens Website To Tell Of Her UFO Encounters >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 12:26:28 +0200 >>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> >>Subject: MacLaine Opens Website To Tell Of Her UFO Encounters >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Source: The Wolf Files on ABC News, July 15, 2000, >>http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/WolfFiles/wolffiles.html >>Stig >>By Buck Wolf ><snip> >Thank you Stig, as usual, >Ms. MacLaine's site is interesting. But one of the pictures >shown was strange an new to me. I have never seen before. >Does anyone know anything about this photo on her site: >http://www.shirleymaclaine.com/images/ufo/ufotruck.jpg >I am curious about it's origins. Anyone? Jim, This is one of the many (in)famous Billie Meier (Swiss) photos of "beamships". You can see this very image, along with seven others, on the following Billie Meier website page: http://www.billymeier.com/Photo_Gallery.html Hope that helps, -Brian Cuthbertson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 16 UpDate: P-47: ohn Carpenter's Sale From: William E. Jones <Joneswufo@AOL.COM> Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 00:53:15 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 02:00:16 -0400 Subject: UpDate: P-47: ohn Carpenter's Sale I have been following the discussions about Carpenter's abduction file sale to Bigelow with interest. I would have posted this on UFO UpDates if I knew how. While the sale wasn't illegal, it may have been unethical. It sure didn't make John or ufology in general look good. There has been a lot of talk stating that such files shouldn't be transferred because of witness expectations and their need and right to privacy. There seems to be a thread running through these discussion that abductees expect that their files won't be shared. Now that may be, but it is unrealistic. Why? Becasue of our mortaility. When an abduction researcher dies those file are up for grabs at some point. I suppose surviving spouses usually destroy stuff like this, but not all. Abductees cannot assume that their files will never get into the public domain. Chances are in the long run, they will. If we as ufologists don't want this to happen, then we had better start talking about this issue along with the fact that John may have been a "bad ufologist". Bill Jones MUFON State Director for Ohio
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 16 UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 00:33:56 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 01:55:49 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Mortellaro >Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 22:02:25 -0500 (CDT) >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> >Subject: Re: MacLaine Opens Website >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 14:55:04 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: MacLaine Opens Website To Tell Of Her UFO Encounters >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 12:26:28 +0200 >>>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> >>>Subject: MacLaine Opens Website To Tell Of Her UFO Encounters >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Source: The Wolf Files on ABC News, July 15, 2000, >>>http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/WolfFiles/wolffiles.html >>>Stig >>>By Buck Wolf >><snip> >>Thank you Stig, as usual, >>Ms. MacLaine's site is interesting. But one of the pictures >>shown was strange an new to me. I have never seen before. >>Does anyone know anything about this photo on her site: >>http://www.shirleymaclaine.com/images/ufo/ufotruck.jpg >>I am curious about it's origins. Anyone? >Jim, >This is one of the many (in)famous Billie Meier (Swiss) photos >of "beamships". You can see this very image, along with seven >others, on the following Billie Meier website page: >http://www.billymeier.com/Photo_Gallery.html >Hope that helps, >-Brian Cuthbertson Thank you Brian, I frankly do not recall ever seeing that one before. I visited the site above and there were several more I did not recognize. The photo on MacLaine's site looked familiar with three balls on the bottom and the lines around the waist of the "ship." I am probably asking a stupid question, knowing full well that Meier's pics have been gone over with a fine tooth comb (that is, presumably so), but has anyone analyzed this particular photo with results to post? Brian or anyone, are there analyses which have been done on these? The reason I ask is that the Meier craft look ... stunningly familiar to me and I am not aware why this is so. There is nothing in memory which I can retrieve, but still... it's just a feeling. If any of you can help, it would be appreciated. Thanks in advance... for not laughing among other things. I hate it when that happens. Uh, if the feeling comes on (to laugh) try a little Gripple and Cream before responding. Jim Mortellaro
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 16 UpDate: Re: First Man To Orbit - Wright From: Bruce Wright <magnus@io.com> Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 00:21:58 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 02:04:05 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: First Man To Orbit - Wright >Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 22:51:21 +0100 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >Subject: Re: First Man To Orbit >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:14:12 -0300 >>From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca> >>Subject: First Man To Orbit [was: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly] >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Ilyushin's space flight preceeded Gagarin's by about three days. >>I'd like to nail down a good source on this. >Don, >If you haven't seen the following before, it might be helpful: >http://www.lostcosmonauts.com/ilyushin.htm Gentlemen: pardon a lurker for interjecting, but I feel I must point out that this website also repeats the "dying cosomonauts monitored via radio" story that has been doing the rounds for some 35 years; I first read it in 1965. There is considerable doubt about both this tale and the Ilyushin story, to put it mildly indeed. James Oberg, who I realize may not be particularly popular in certain quarters of saucerdom, is nonetheless the west's greatest living expert on the Soviet space program; he researched these questions in detail and concluded they were myths--while simultaneously uncovering some cosmonaut trainee deaths that were never reported, so it's not like the Russians were above dissembling about space-related failures. In all, though, I would ask you to wear your alien autopsy spectacles while reading this site. Bruce W. Fortean Times and points west
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 16 UpDate: Re: Westchester County Weekly - 'UFOs Revisited' From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 08:10:40 +0200 Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 02:27:49 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Westchester County Weekly - 'UFOs Revisited' This well researched article was published in the Westchester County Weekly (Massachusetts) on March 9, but hasn't gone round the UFO circuit, yet, I believe. Westchester Co. Weekly home page: http://www.westchesterweekly.com/articles/ufos.html Stig *** While society has embraced aliens as part of our modern mythology, are we ready to handle biological competition of that magnitude? By Stefanie Ramp [Above: The Westchester Boomerang: An artist's rendering of the Hudson Valley UFO, which has been routinely described by witnesses as a triangular object larger than a football field with a "V" of lights.] ** It was 17 years ago this month when the phenomenon known as the Hudson Valley UFO commenced its high-profile tour through the Northeast. Particularly fond of Westchester County, it was nicknamed the "Westchester Boomerang," though it spent a great deal of time in Connecticut as well. Hundreds of local citizens reported sightings to the police and numerous police officers witnessed the spectacle firsthand. According to Philip Imbrogno, a UFO investigator and co-author of Night Siege: The Hudson Valley UFO Sightings (written with Dr. J. Allen Hynek and Bob Pratt), which chronicles the most impressive reports, more than 5,000 people have reported seeing a triangular- or boomerang-shaped object larger than a football field hovering in our skies. The Hudson Valley UFO sightings occurred with surprising regularity throughout the 1980s, and the phenomenon was immortalized in Communion, Whitley Strieber's autobiographical account of abduction from his cabin in Pine Bush, N. Y. The sightings continue to this day, though with much less frequency. Mark Cashman of the Connecticut chapter of the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON) said that although investigators are unsure why, UFO phenomenon has always come in waves since it was first tracked in the late 1940s. The Hudson Valley sightings were so widespread in the 1980s that the Hudson Valley UFO barely registers as an anomaly anymore. Rather, it seems to have been embraced as a local bragging right. Numerous people I know personally profess to have seen it, including one woman who was walking around downtown Fairfield, Conn., with a friend one night about 12 years ago when the phenomenon appeared cruising over the center of town. A Fairfield police officer patrolling nearby witnessed it as well. Everyone who has seen it describes nearly the same thing: a triangular object larger than a football field with a "V" of lights moving at about 25 miles-per-hour, only a couple hundred feet up in the sky, making little or no noise -- far less than any airplane. Local authorities alternately blamed the phenomena on military aircraft, though no agency would take credit for them, and motorized hang gliders called ultralights allegedly rigged with special effects lighting. This latter theory persisted despite the fact that ultralight experts testified that such a hoax would be impossible to pull off; it's also illegal to fly ultralights at night, which is when the vast majority of the Hudson Valley sightings took place. Though no logical explanation seems to exist for the Hudson Valley UFO, it certainly doesn't prove the existence of another intelligent life force. However, there are many people who claim to be in contact with alien intelligence as a result of, or in conjunction with, the Hudson Valley sightings. In the course of researching this story, one of my sources insisted that it was no accident I'd decided to write about UFOs. He believed that some alien intelligence was in telepathic communication with me and informing my decision to delve into a topic that is routinely ridiculed by the scientific community and in the media. I certainly don't have a rational answer as to why the subject fascinates me; people's reactions to the possibility of alien life intrigues me as much as the possibility of alien life itself. The heyday of the Hudson Valley sightings was long before I moved to the East Coast from Indiana; I thought UFOs only harassed red necks in the Midwest. Imbrogno has heard so many contact reports -- close to 300 -- that he co-authored a sequel to Night Siege with Marianne Horrigan called Contact of the 5th Kind. Imbrogno now lives in Danbury, Conn., and has taught science at the Windward School in White Plains, N. Y., for nearly 20 years. He also sits on the board of directors at the Bowman Observatory in Greenwich and writes a soon-to-be syndicated astronomy column for the Greenwich Time. In a recent interview, Imbrogno noted that while absolute proof of UFOs and extra-terrestrial phenomenon remains elusive, he's been confronted with a multitude of very convincing evidence through his investigations. One of the most impressive cases Imbrogno handled in conjunction with the Hudson Valley UFO was that of Dean Fagerstrom of Brewster, N. Y. Although Imbrogno estimates that more than 90 percent of "channeling cases," or instances where a non-human presence communicates through an individual, are decidedly "bunk," he believes that Fagerstrom may be one of the very few individuals in communication with non-human intelligence. Fagerstrom, now in his late 60s, was a security specialist after an 11-year military career and a stint in Vietnam. During a recent interview with the Weekly, Fagerstrom explained that he's been experiencing bizarre phenomenon all his life. Fagerstrom, who fled the seminary in his early 20s, said that what most people would consider to be alien and religious phenomenon is all part of the same spiritual destiny for him. He claims that in 1964, an Adonis-like entity named Donestra, hailing from the planet Solarian, visited him while he was working on some peculiar mathematical sequences which, according to Imbrogno, were designed to predict the lottery. Fagerstrom maintains that Donestra helped him win the lottery, but he said that Donestra's real interest in his equations had to do with a divine form of mathematics based on the true date of Christ's birth. "[Donestra] discussed various things that I was aware of at least in theory, but not so much factually the way he expressed it, and this was to the effect that there were multiple civilizations and he was one representative and he was particularly interested in my mathematical pursuits which had begun at that time and have continued to this day," Fagerstrom explained. Fagerstrom claims that a divine entity named Aphax has channeled this revelatory mathematical system through him, which he compiled in an unpublished manuscript called the "Book of Anglion." He believes it will spark a revolution in the field of computer science. According to Fagerstrom, Anglion is the name of a spiritual society in "the other world" headed by Emmanuel Swedenborg who was a Swedish theologian, scientist and philosopher who lived from 1688 to 1772. Much of Fagerstrom's spiritual and extra-terrestrial ideologies seem to come from Swedenborg's work, which he referenced often during our interview. Despite his fantastical tangents, Fagerstrom has interested Imbrogno since their first meeting in 1982 because of the material Fagerstrom has produced ostensibly through contact with Donestra and several other angelic and extra-terrestrial entities. On Jan. 9, 1968, Fagerstrom says he awoke at 4 a.m. and saw something that looked like an old-fashioned microphone hovering in the air over his bed. It approached him with an extended needle-like probe, which began vibrating and made his whole head and body resonate. Fagerstrom then felt compelled to draw multiple diagrams depicting various kinds of futuristic technology; he allegedly shut himself up in a room for three days and produced 32 diagrams. While well-executed for someone who claims to have no art or engineering background, the designs don't provide the specifics of construction or purpose. The diagrams, which Fagerstrom gave to Imbrogno, impressed the late Dr. Allen Hynek who worked with Imbrogno on Night Siege. Hynek was an astrophysicist who served as the Air Force's UFO consultant when UFO phenomenon was under official investigation throughout the '50s and '60s. He was later a Professor of Astronomy at Northwestern University. According to Imbrogno, the late John Stokes, an associate of Hynek's, constructed a helical coil depicted in one of Fagerstrom's diagrams. It allegedly produced an electromagnetic pulse much greater than any similar technology can produce today, but the coil burned itself out within a matter of seconds. No further attempts to build Fagerstrom's diagrams have been made. In 1972, Fagerstrom was staring down at a blank clipboard when he started writing pages of unidentifiable symbols, which look something like Arabic. Fagerstrom believes he was channeling an angelic language which delivered a subliminal message to him though he's unclear on what that message was. A linguist told Imbrogno that the writing appeared to be a language similar to ancient Babylonian (Sumerian, according to Fagerstrom) with more than 200 characters. Sixteen years later, Fagerstrom allegedly produced more inexplicable material through channeling. Despite the fact that he can't play the piano, Fagerstrom claims to have spontaneously played 100 compositions, which he attributes to the pianist Franz Liszt who lived from 1811 to 1886. Fagerstrom recalled a vision he had in 1988 of a 42-foot piano which Liszt played before a celestial audience of whom he said, "They were in heavenly ecstasy because this music was penetrating their very beings and it was telling them internal kinds of secrets which had nothing to do with notes." Imbrogno says he's heard Fagerstrom in action and believes he had no pre-existing musical skill, but proof is slippery and restricted to Fagerstrom's word. Fagerstrom said he has seen many UFOs over the years and claims that Donestra attributed the multitude of visitations to the fact that Jesus, a divinity recognized by all cosmic civilizations, was born on Earth. Fagerstrom said his various strange experience have left him with a sense of purpose. "I want to see a love for the truth, a love for God and a love for each other. This is everything." Assigning motivations to alien life forms has become something of a national pastime spawning countless hypothesis. While Fagerstrom believes extra-terrestrials are manifestations of the divine, MUFON's investigator Peter Jordan adamantly maintains that the phenomena he's investigated is not so benign. "Whatever this is, it does do physical things, and many of those things are physically harmful. This is a phenomenon that is extremely selfish and in many cases extremely sinister. It is certainly deceptive and that alone makes it unworthy of being embraced completely. I mean it can be studied, yes, but embraced, no." Jordan, a national lecturer on paranormal occurrences, has noticed a link between supernatural phenomenon and occurrences that are generally associated with extra-terrestrials; he suggests one common denominator is a controversial concept called plasma. Plasma, which in simple terms is ionized particles, has been called the fourth state of matter. According to Jordan, although most scientists believe in it theoretically, it's incredibly difficult to study in a controlled environment. Jordan says that plasma, created when quartz crystals are placed under extreme pressure, may be partially responsible for many anomalies in various parts of the country. "The Hudson Valley region is one of those areas that has always attracted an incredible bevy of paranormal phenomenon," Jordan said. Based on his research and personal experience, Jordan theorized that plasma can create a ball of traveling light consistent with many sightings attributed to both ghosts and aliens. Plasma may be an alternate life form, according to some researchers, including a physicist at London University who told Jordan he believed plasma was organic matter. Plasma is one of the many oddities being investigated by Vesitigia, a nonprofit and independent national organization of scientists studying paranormal activity of which Jordan is a member. Although he believes there is a lot going on for which we have no explanation, including UFO phenomenon, Jordan is more skeptical about abduction and contact cases -- particularly those remembered through hypnosis. "In the year 2000, every single person on every single street corner in the United States knows what's involved in a UFO scenario. So all you end up with is a mirror-like reflection of that scenario. It's circular reasoning," he argues. Further muddying the waters, Jordan suggests that if alien abductions are really taking place, this non-human intelligence may be interacting with our consciousness and helping to shape our perception of extra-terrestrial life. In other words, the shape-shifting entity appears in the form we expect it to take; for most of us that's the hydrocephalic creature with the big eyes. Jordan also suspects that the government is responsible for at least some of the phenomenon attributed to alien sources. Without divulging the specifics, he explained that his research has led him to believe that the government may attempt to simulate alien intelligence for the sake of psychological experimentation. When I admonished Jordan for leaving me more confused than ever he quipped, "Why are you expecting a simple answer from aliens?" Most UFO investigators believe that the government knows something it's not telling us and has no plans of enlightening the public anytime soon. Peter Gersten, a founding member of Citizens Against UFO Secrecy, or CAUS (Ufolawyer@caus.org), has brought several lawsuits against the U. S. government in an effort to uncover its knowledge of UFO and extra-terrestrial phenomenon. Gersten began his career as a prosecutor for the Kings County District Attorney's office in Brooklyn and then went into private practice. In 1977, he was hired by Ground Saucer Watch to acquire CIA documents concerning UFO phenomenon under the newly enacted Freedom of Information Act. "Low and behold, about a year later, the CIA released 900 pages of documents on a subject that they had stated up until that time that not only weren't they studying but basically didn't exist," Gersten recalled in a recent interview. "The CIA documents confirmed the reality of the objects. " In addition to the 900 released documents, 57 others were found but withheld on the grounds of national security, thereby setting a precedent that UFOs were considered real enough to affect national security. Several hundred more documents were found that originated in other agencies and were out of CIA jurisdiction. All agencies eventually released the documents voluntarily except for the National Security Agency, which continues to withhold 135 documents on the grounds of national security despite several appeals. Gersten has two suits pending, one of which seeks the release of Department of Defense documents pertaining to the Hudson Valley UFO. The DOD claims it has no such documents, but the case received a favorable motion in February when a judge ruled the DOD must share its search methods and prove that it conducted a thorough investigation for the documents. Gersten's real interest lies in the "intelligence behind the UFOs" and he insists he can prove in a court of law beyond a reasonable doubt that we are in contact with another intelligence, which he believes is non-biological and co-exists with us on this planet independent of the laws of physics as we understand them. "It's my belief that this intelligence takes different forms depending on the evolutionary and historical status of our species," he explained. "At one point it was angels, at another point gods, here it's extra-terrestrials because that's where we're at." While none of these theories can be proved or disproved, the proliferation of UFO phenomenon and philosophy tends to muddy the very real and indisputable evidence of unidentified flying objects that researchers have collected over the last 50 years. Mark Cashman, state director of MUFON's Connecticut chapter, applies as much hard science to his investigations as possible and has even developed a system of measurement called triangulation, similar to methods used by surveyors to more accurately assess the size, distance and speed of reported UFOs. Cashman is the first to admit that UFO research is constrained by the fact that the field is primarily populated by amateurs and believes no real progress will be made until the government and scientific community support UFO research. He's not holding his breath. Although the government now scoffs at UFO research -- the Federal Aviation Administration and FBI barely kept a straight face when I asked if either agency has any current involvement with UFO reports -- its attitude used to be quite different. "The history of this field has sort of vaporized for the modern generation," Cashman says. "They don't realize that during the 1950s and '60s there was tremendous ferment in this field and that the government at various times was really relatively open in terms of what they were doing." The government, primarily via the Air Force, conducted official UFO research until 1969 when it turned the project over to the University of Colorado, Boulder. By this time, UFO phenomenon had attracted enough fringe groups, eccentrics and hoaxes that scientists were beginning to dismiss it despite the general persistent interest. According to Cashman, the University of Colorado was a bit sheepish about taking on the project but needed the grant money. A memo later surfaced that advised those involved to make it look to the public like the project was being taken seriously but make it understood by the scientific community that it wasn't. "Despite the fact that the project's findings were that they couldn't explain 30 percent of the sightings that they were given, the project director said there was nothing to it and that science shouldn't be paying attention," Cashman explained. "It was a disaster for people who wanted to find out what was going on scientifically because this was a very high-prestige study." Colorado's attitude effectively ended official study of UFOs and ensured that no grant money would be forthcoming for future projects. "It's possible that if the study had swung the other way and had simply said, 'This is interesting, we should give some people some grants to look at this stuff,' we would know a tremendous amount by now and the fringe would never have come into it," Cashman said. It's important to remember that legitimizing the existence of UFOs isn't the same as sanctioning the reality of extra-terrestrials. UFOs are simply things in the sky that science can't explain. Documents released through Gersten's lawsuits prove that there have been many flying objects that science can't explain. One of the most respected sources for government documentation of UFOs is E.J. Ruppelt's book The Report On Unidentified Flying Objects published in 1956. Ruppelt was an Air Force captain and headed the government's official UFO research, Project Blue Book, during the early '50s. He was involved with multiple sightings, both on military radar and by the eyewitness accounts of Air Force pilots. One of the most incredible sightings took place on Sept. 12, 1953. An object was picked up on radar and two F-84s were dispatched to follow it, which they did although the object wouldn't let them get any closer than three miles. "That intercept by the airforce is highly credible," Cashman remarked. "We've got military pilots, military radar operators, we've got multiple people seeing the same thing with different kinds of modalities -- they're seeing it with radar, they're seeing it with their eyes, they're flying up to it. That to me is the kind of stuff to focus in on." There are many reports of the Air Force chasing after these objects and also evidence of them firing on UFOs. According to Cashman, there's even documentation from the 1950s of a radar trace indicating an object traveling at speeds greater than 9,000 miles an hour. Our modern M.A.C.H. technology can't even produce those kinds of speeds. Cashman is cautious about UFO evidence and focuses on definitive scientific proof rather than theory in his search for the truth which, although it's undoubtedly out there, won't be forthcoming anytime soon. If a non-human intelligence is responsible for UFOs, the realization of this truth will overturn every belief system humanity has ever held or created. While society has embraced aliens as part of our modern mythology, I'm not sure we're ready to handle biological competition of that magnitude. However, the last thing we should do is stumble blindly into this potential reality. "If this is true, if what appears on the surface is in fact true, it's got to be one of the most important things we could know about the universe," Cashman said. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Westchester Co. Weekly home page Copyright �2000 New Mass. Media, Inc. All rights reserved.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 16 UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 05:19:30 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 17:40:20 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Velez >Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 00:53:15 -0400 (EDT) >From: William E. Jones <Joneswufo@AOL.COM> >Subject: John Carpenter's Sale >To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM >I have been following the discussions about Carpenter's >abduction file sale to Bigelow with interest. I would have >posted this on UFO UpDates if I knew how. >While the sale wasn't illegal, it may have been unethical. It >sure didn't make John or ufology in general look good. There has >been a lot of talk stating that such files shouldn't be >transferred because of witness expectations and their need and >right to privacy. There seems to be a thread running through >these discussion that abductees expect that their files won't be >shared. Now that may be, but it is unrealistic. Why? Becasue of >our mortaility. When an abduction researcher dies those file are >up for grabs at some point. I suppose surviving spouses usually >destroy stuff like this, but not all. Abductees cannot assume >that their files will never get into the public domain. Chances >are in the long run, they will. >If we as ufologists don't want this to happen, then we had >better start talking about this issue along with the fact that >John may have been a "bad ufologist". >Bill Jones >MUFON State Director for Ohio Hi Bill, hi All, Speaking strictly as an abductee; this has all been a stone cold sobering experience for me. Apparently, in order to truly protect ones own best interests in ufology, you need to have a lawyer on retainer. Whatever privacy concerns an individual may have all need to be worked out, agreed upon, and result in a co-signed document. What a world! You are right of course. Files will be shared or transferred in one way or another eventually. For purposes of empirical scientific study sharing facts and stats is an absolute necessity. What sets this instance apart is; the anonymity of 'all' the subjects was not protected in any way by John Carpenter when transferring the files. And yes Bill, there is a breach in ethics here. I'll grant you that it is all a 'grey area' but; if John had informed the subjects in question that he was about to sell their reports, hypnosis sessions, interviews, medical data, and all other kinds of personal information, how many of the 140 abductees do you think would have given John a 'green light'?! Nuff said. We really do need to open up a very public discussion about what makes for a 'good' ufologist or a 'bad' one. While we're at it, we should all consider what kind of behaviors/methods are acceptable, and which ones will not be tolerated. BTW, John Carpenter's 'silence' throughout all this has been _deafening!_ Thank you for your thoughtful comments Bill. Regards, John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 16 UpDate: Re: Need Support! - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 07:54:37 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 17:46:24 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Need Support! - Hammond >Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 18:45:53 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Need Support! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Hello All, >I am posting this under separate cover because I'm hoping to >secure the support of some of the better known folks/researchers >on our List. I need your 'voice,' and for you to lend the weight >of your own reputations to help me in my efforts to get >NIDS/Bigelow/Alexander to notify the abductees whose files were >sold that; their reports and other personal information are now >in the possession of Mr. Bigelow/NIDS. Dear List: Although not a "Well-Known" anything, I have been on this List, appreciating the Posts, for a very long time. I've never posted as I have not felt qualified to participate in most of the threads. They have either been over my head or in fields I have no real knowledge of. Recent post which have centered around Abduction Issues I do feel qualified to address. I would only like to echo this Post and ask all of you, whatever you're beleifs, to put them aside, as well as any personal issues there may be, and support this. We so often feel like the ugly stepsisters of Ufology, please give us the support we need. These people _have_ been used. I doubt many of you would like to know that some strangers are reading over your very personal medical records. _And_ have the ability to invade your privacy further as they have also obtained your address, phone number, place of employment, etc. Add to the mix the files portions on Abduction material and one can see that a person would be very upset about it! I doubt any serious proffessional person would be comfortable with this situation. Aside from the human issues at stake here, there is also the issue of showing the rest of the Scientific Community that this Community does not support this sort of bad science. Using human research subjects almost always involves obtaining releases. I'm sure that in any studies any of you might make, or books you may write using material gained from actual people, you would always obtain a release. If for no other reason than to avoid any possibility of a law suit in the future. Please, just take a few moments today to answer the thread between John and Mr. Bigelow, and give us even a few words of support. I know many abductees, and they and I would thank you for supporting us. Yours, Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 16 UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 07:23:31 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 17:47:51 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 00:33:56 -0400 (EDT) >Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 01:55:49 -0400 >Subject: UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Mortellaro Previously, Jim asked about the following photo: >>>http://www.shirleymaclaine.com/images/ufo/ufotruck.jpg >I am probably asking a stupid question, knowing full well that >Meier's pics have been gone over with a fine tooth comb (that >is, presumably so), but has anyone analyzed this particular >photo with results to post? Brian or anyone, are there analyses >which have been done on these? Hi, Jimmy! The Meier photos all appear to be simple forced perspective photos to me. It's a pity that Ms. Maclain didn't consult with the hundreds of effects technicians she could draw upon from her career in the film industry before inclusion of this shot. But then again, I've always felt that her past lives hoo-la was more about money than anything. So, why should she care if the photos are fake? Later, Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 16 UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Cuthbertson From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 09:04:56 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 17:52:50 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Cuthbertson >Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 00:33:56 -0400 (EDT) >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Subject: Re: MacLaine Opens Website >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 22:02:25 -0500 (CDT) >>From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> >>Subject: Re: MacLaine Opens Website >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 14:55:04 -0400 (EDT) >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>>Subject: Re: MacLaine Opens Website To Tell Of Her UFO Encounters >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>><snip> >>>Ms. MacLaine's site is interesting. But one of the pictures >>>shown was strange an new to me. I have never seen before. >>>Does anyone know anything about this photo on her site: >>>http://www.shirleymaclaine.com/images/ufo/ufotruck.jpg >>>I am curious about it's origins. Anyone? >>Jim, >>This is one of the many (in)famous Billie Meier (Swiss) photos >>of "beamships". You can see this very image, along with seven >>others, on the following Billie Meier website page: >>http://www.billymeier.com/Photo_Gallery.html >I frankly do not recall ever seeing that one before. I visited >the site above and there were several more I did not recognize. >The photo on MacLaine's site looked familiar with three balls on >the bottom and the lines around the waist of the "ship." >I am probably asking a stupid question, knowing full well that >Meier's pics have been gone over with a fine tooth comb (that >is, presumably so), but has anyone analyzed this particular >photo with results to post? Brian or anyone, are there analyses >which have been done on these? > >The reason I ask is that the Meier craft look ... stunningly >familiar to me and I am not aware why this is so. There is >nothing in memory which I can retrieve, but still... it's just a >feeling. >If any of you can help, it would be appreciated. >Thanks in advance... for not laughing among other things. I hate >it when that happens. Uh, if the feeling comes on (to laugh) try >a little Gripple and Cream before responding. Jim, The Meier case is of course one of those that seems to bring extreme responses from the skeptics. After all, if one allows that the Meier images have a snowball's chance in heck of being real, then self-respecting skeptics have a real problem on their hands :-) So take it for granted you'll get a couple of responses screaming about the Meier "hoax". But I do know of one decent page which discusses the Meier case (and photos), and also provides lotso links to additional material. It belongs to Jim Deardoff, and its at: http://www.proaxis.com/~deardorj/index.htm Or if you wanna jump straight to the page section on the Meir case, go to: http://www.proaxis.com/~deardorj/index.htm#J3 I'd say this is a good place to start. Onward, -Brian C.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 16 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc - Meiners From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net> Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 08:17:36 -0600 Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 18:00:13 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc - Meiners >Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 09:08:53 +1200 (NZST) >From: Murray Bott <murrayb@win.co.nz> >Subject: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc >To: UpDates List <updates@sympatico.ca> >Greetings List >Here in New Zealand we have a "Privacy Act". While I haven't >studied this at all it is often spoken about. >I understand that any person can request the return of _all_ >copies if private details they have provided or files containing >their details. (both originals and photocopies) >This could be a problem for us UFO researchers who have even >accepted a simple "Sighting Report Questionaire" from such >people. Murray: You say that if the Privacy Act is invoked regarding the research files obtained during normal means fall under this Act, you, as a researcher, would be greatly harmed. Is this correct? From reading all that I have been able to see here on UpDates and on sites, this isn't the problem. The problem exists when as a researcher, for monetary gain and/or fame, these questionnaires and research findings are disposed of without the prior knowledge or permission of the subject. Here, in the United States, even research subjects, must sign a Release of Information prior to any release of information or the researcher, their organization or any other deep pocket can, and usually are, held liable. There has been, in my opinion, a serious breach of ethics involved, especially on the researcher's part. This needs to be addressed now (should have been handled in the past - but hindsight is 20/20 anyway) so that this doesn't occur again in the future. Meantime, there are 140 people, more or less, out there that have been violated. They trusted someone and that trust has gone the way of all waste materials and it has taken them with it. This is seriously wrong. Any researcher, no matter what the field of research is, should not allow this to happen. Their subjects should be protected at all times. Evidently, this researcher(s) feels that his subjects are 10 cents a dozen. I, as an abductee, would be hunting for deep pockets right about now. That is why there is a Privacy Act... so you and I and everyone on board here, can protect their privates lives from snoopers and cause our families harm. Many times, in the interest of whatevers, as a private individual we can give those rights, with guidelines, to others that we trust for publication or public notification of some kind. But with _our_ permission. Not _someone_else's_ discretion. Just one abductee's view RJ
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 16 UpDate: CPR-Canada News: Circles in Manitoba - 07-16-2000 From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca> Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 11:00:57 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 18:03:45 -0400 Subject: UpDate: CPR-Canada News: Circles in Manitoba - 07-16-2000 CPR-CANADA NEWS The E-News Service of Circles Phenomenon Research Canada http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada July 16, 2000 _____________________________ CIRCLES IN MANITOBA Ashern, Manitoba Mid-June, 2000 Preliminary Report - July 16, 2000 On July 8, while in St. Paul, Alberta I received word during the conference from Fern Belzil of some new circles reported on the CBC radio news the previous evening, near Ashern, Manitoba. I wasn't able to send out this report until after I returned home on the 13th, at which time I found I had received a confirming e-mail report from Chris Rutkowski of Ufology Research of Manitoba. Five doughnut shaped rings, including one "half-crescent", averaging about 15 feet diameter, in pasture vegetation (wild grass, bear berry and saskatoon bushes). First found by bird-watchers in mid-June, the rings appeared to be fairly old, perhaps 6 to 12 months, and appear as a darkening of the vegetation, not flattened as in typical crop circles, making them more like "old-style" UGMs (Unidentified Ground Markings). The circles are in a remote area east of Ashern, which is north of Winnipeg. This report is similar to the Willmar, Saskatchewan rings reported June 19. On a perhaps related note, while in Alberta I visited the site of the large Edmonton #2 crop formation of last year with Judy Arndt, who did the ground surveys and sampling last September. The barley field, (still infested with thistles!), exhibited an interesting change in the colour and physical nature of the plants in the area where the formation had been several months before. The young barley plants in this area were of a pronounced lighter shade of green and stood straighter than those in the rest of the field. It was not clear whether these changes were simply caused by the plants in last year's crop having been flattened and "matted" in these areas, affecting available moisture and sunlight, or if there is another cause involved. Nancy Talbott of the BLT Research Team will also be going out to inspect this field this weekend, having just returned from a sidetrip to Saskatchewan. A beautiful canola field lies next to the barley field (the canola fields are in full flower right now), and while both driving around St. Paul and flying (to and from Edmonton) I had the chance to observe many such fields in the area, but no new circles yet to be seen (again, though most circles are not found here until later in the summer, in August / September). The canola field is also adjacent to a cemetary which Judy and I had to cut through to get to the other end of the unfenced part of the field (and yes, we had permission to enter the fields, which I advise everyone to do beforehand). Many good examples of fungus rings were seen on the cemetary grounds, averaging about 3 or 4 feet in diameter and filled with mushrooms, which helps in determining these from future crop circles (some previous cases had been initially reported by farmers to be crop circles, which then turned out to be fungus rings). While in St. Paul, I also had the opportunity, along with Nancy Talbott and others, to visit some of the other farmers in the area, who were quite open about the crop circle, cattle mutilation and UFO phenomena which are all quite common these days on the Canadian prairies. There is also a report of another farmer in southern Saskatchewan who found between twenty and thirty crop circles in his wheat field last year, which were not initially reported at the time. If confirmed, this would be the 21st (known) formation reported for 1999. Further details when available. Paul Anderson _____________________________ See also the CPR-Canada web site for complete listings of news stories, reports and related information and links: http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada _____________________________ CPR-Canada News is the electronic news service of Circles Phenomenon Research Canada (affiliate of Circles Phenomenon Research International), providing periodic updates with the latest news and reports, as well as information on CPR-Canada -related news and events. CPR-Canada News is edited by Paul Anderson and published by CPR-Canada, and is available free by subscription; to be added to or removed from the mailing list, send your request, including "subscribe CPR-Canada News" or "unsubscribe CPR-Canada News" and e-mail address to: psa@direct.ca For further information, submissions or inquiries, forward all correspondence to: CIRCLES PHENOMENON RESEARCH CANADA Circles Phenomenon Research International Main Office Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue Vancouver, BC V6J 1J4 Canada Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522 Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454 E-Mail: psa@direct.ca Web: http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada REPORTING HOTLINE: 604.731.8522 _____________________________ � Circles Phenomenon Research Canada, 2000
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 16 UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 15:51:39 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 18:06:05 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? - Gates >Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 22:48:15 +0100 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >Subject: Sketch Drawn by Kenneth Arnold? >To: UFO UpDates <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Of even more interest - if actually drawn by Arnold - is a >sketch I've previously neither seen or heard about. >Using a digital camera, I've eventually managed to capture a >flicker-free copy of the on-screen image and this can be seen >at: >http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/arnold/arn_new.jpg >Can anyone identify this drawing/where and when it originated? Sometime back I saw a newspaper article with a picture of Ken Arnold's daughter or something like that. In the photo, she was holding a framed drawing of what her father saw that day. Kind of interesting, and it looked similar to what you have, although it only showed one of the objects and the picture was bigger. Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 16 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 15:57:30 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 18:08:59 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Gates >Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 03:11:57 +0200 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 15:57:13 -0400 >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >>Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >>To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 12:20:15 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >>>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >>>Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>A fellow researcher has made the >>>suggestion that the atomic bomb which was dropped and detonated >>>over Quebec by a disabled U.S. plane returning from a base in >>>the Canadian east coast where many UFO sightings were being made >>>may have been caused by a UFO too. >>An American nuclear bomb was detonated over Quebec? When did >>that happen? >Hello Greg, >I don't think we can entertain the notion that there was a >nuclear explosion in Quebec. A few months ago I read somewhere >on the net about "close calls", accidental releases of atomic >weapons. My memory is a little fuzzy (as usual) and I don't have >the time to search for that entry. There was at least one >incident of a bomb accidentally released when one of the flight >crew was in the bomb bay removing the mechanical bomb locks that >were used for takeoff and landing. Uh oh, the bomb punched a >hole in the bomb bay door and headed straight down. When the >bomb hit the ground the conventional explosive charge that was >used to start a reaction ezploded and did not start a >thermonuclear fission process. I can't recall whether any of >those incidents were over Quebec. As I recall that involved a B-36 bomber and a 20 megaton bomb, and it fell out and the conventional explosives detonated on the ground near Albururque, NM in the late 50s. From what I now understand the U of NMq now owns the ground that took place on. Dug a huge crater, spewed radioactive crap around, BUT no mushroom cloud. >I think there have been only about a half dozen incidents from >our forces. The worst was a fire in an underground ICBM silo in >Misssissippi. When the missile with a 20 megaton warhead >exploded it hurled that warhead 900 feet. But no 20 megaton mass >wipe out. Fortunately we have had very good arming procedures. I recalled that being a Titan 2 in Arkansas in 1979 or 80. The Titan carried a 20 Megaton warhead while the minuteman carried sub megaton class warheads. cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 16 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 Silliness - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 16:12:05 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 18:11:07 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 Silliness - Gates >Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:53:08 +0100 >From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> >Subject: Re: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 Silliness >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 18:58:03 -0400 >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >>Subject: Re: MJ-12 Silliness - Bruni >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Dear Greg >>Why, if they're doing such fine research, didn't they know what >>the Roosevelt memo was? I'd be curious to know -- just >>speculating here -- >I did also mention that I think it's a slow process. I >understand the Wood's are spending a great deal of time on on >the actual documents. Woods apparently (from what they say) have already come to the conclusion that the documents are real and all thats left is to do a little research at the archives. On the other hand, the documents have serious problems, i.e. can't be verified by any "known" authentic archives documents. I remember the documents that cited the other two alleged UFO crash locations in NM. Can't remember the one, but the document written quoted the location as the nearby mountain range. The one problem with that was the crash site was allegedly right in/on the Trinity nuclear detonation site. People writing documents would not have used the name of the mountain range 20 miles away, but would have used the "Trinity Site" as the quick and easy way of pinpointing a location. Bottom line on the documents is 20 years from now Woods will still maintain they are the real thing, and there will be no independent proof, just like today. I take that back, the only proof may be more so called leaked documents that can't be proven, but they might verify the first set of leaked documents. :) Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 17 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc - Kaeser From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 20:04:24 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 09:58:06 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc - Kaeser >Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 08:17:36 -0600 >From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From reading all that I have been able to see here on UpDates >and on sites, this isn't the problem. The problem exists when as >a researcher, for monetary gain and/or fame, these >questionnaires and research findings are disposed of without the >prior knowledge or permission of the subject. >Here, in the United States, even research subjects, must sign a >Release of Information prior to any release of information or >the researcher, their organization or any other deep pocket can, >and usually are, held liable. The privacy laws in the US are fairly specific, and perhaps a lawyer should jump in here. But unless one can demonstrate harm, or damage to one's reputation, a very strong legal contract would likely be required to take any actions against an errant researcher. Do abductees normally sign a contract that strictly defines the relationship between themselves and the researcher? Such a contract would lay the groundwork for a "Release of Information" document.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 17 UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 17:47:38 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:23:05 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Hatch >Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 14:55:04 -0400 (EDT) >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Subject: Re: MacLaine Opens Website To Tell Of Her UFO Encounters >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 12:26:28 +0200 >>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> >>Subject: MacLaine Opens Website To Tell Of Her UFO Encounters >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Source: The Wolf Files on ABC News, July 15, 2000, >>http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/WolfFiles/wolffiles.html >>Stig >>By Buck Wolf ><snip> >Thank you Stig, as usual, >Ms. MacLaine's site is interesting. But one of the pictures >shown was strange an new to me. I have never seen before. >Does anyone know anything about this photo on her site: >http://www.shirleymaclaine.com/images/ufo/ufotruck.jpg >I am curious about it's origins. Anyone? Hi Jim et al: I just took a look at the photo. I find it not very convincing. The image looks like a small object very close, perhaps suspended from above. You cannot see above the object. best - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 17 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 20:58:20 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:25:25 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Sandow >Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 15:57:30 -0400 (EDT) >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 03:11:57 +0200 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de> >>Subject: Re: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>An American nuclear bomb was detonated over Quebec? When did >>>that happen? >>Hello Greg, >>I don't think we can entertain the notion that there was a >>nuclear explosion in Quebec. A few months ago I read somewhere >>on the net about "close calls", accidental releases of atomic >>weapons. My memory is a little fuzzy (as usual) and I don't have >>the time to search for that entry. There was at least one >>incident of a bomb accidentally released when one of the flight >>crew was in the bomb bay removing the mechanical bomb locks that >>were used for takeoff and landing. <snip> >As I recall that involved a B-36 bomber and a 20 megaton bomb, >and it fell out and the conventional explosives detonated on the >ground near Albururque, NM in the late 50s. From what I now >understand the U of NMq now owns the ground that took place on. >Dug a huge crater, spewed radioactive crap around, BUT no >mushroom cloud. >>I think there have been only about a half dozen incidents from >>our forces. The worst was a fire in an underground ICBM silo in >>Misssissippi. <snip> I was very skeptical about this. Seems to me that if an American nuke had detonated over Quebec, we'd all know about it. Surely this would have been a major event in modern history, not to mention a very black day for US-Canada relations. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 17 UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Cuthbertson From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 17:59:30 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:30:20 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Cuthbertson >Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 22:02:25 -0500 (CDT) >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> >Subject: Re: MacLaine Opens Website >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 14:55:04 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: MacLaine Opens Website To Tell Of Her UFO Encounters >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 12:26:28 +0200 >>>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> >>>Subject: MacLaine Opens Website To Tell Of Her UFO Encounters >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Source: The Wolf Files on ABC News, July 15, 2000, >>>http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/WolfFiles/wolffiles.html >>>Stig >>>By Buck Wolf >><snip> >>Thank you Stig, as usual, >>Ms. MacLaine's site is interesting. But one of the pictures >>shown was strange an new to me. I have never seen before. >>Does anyone know anything about this photo on her site: >>http://www.shirleymaclaine.com/images/ufo/ufotruck.jpg >>I am curious about it's origins. Anyone? >This is one of the many (in)famous Billie Meier (Swiss) photos >of "beamships". You can see this very image, along with seven >others, on the following Billie Meier website page: >http://www.billymeier.com/Photo_Gallery.html >Hope that helps, >-Brian Cuthbertson Hi Brian, Jim and Stig: Yep! That's the one all right. I spoke too soon. I take it Shirley Maclaine has bought into the Billy Meier story. If so, she could have "credited" Meier with the photo. Best - Larry Hatch - - - - - - - -
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 17 UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 18:09:38 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:33:49 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Hatch >Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 00:33:56 -0400 (EDT) >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Subject: Re: MacLaine Opens Website >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 22:02:25 -0500 (CDT) >>From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> >>Subject: Re: MacLaine Opens Website >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 14:55:04 -0400 (EDT) >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>>Subject: Re: MacLaine Opens Website To Tell Of Her UFO Encounters >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>>Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 12:26:28 +0200 >>>>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> >>>>Subject: MacLaine Opens Website To Tell Of Her UFO Encounters >>>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>>Source: The Wolf Files on ABC News, July 15, 2000, >>>>http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/WolfFiles/wolffiles.html >>>>Stig >>>>By Buck Wolf >>><snip> >>>Thank you Stig, as usual, >>>Ms. MacLaine's site is interesting. But one of the pictures >>>shown was strange an new to me. I have never seen before. >>>Does anyone know anything about this photo on her site: >>>http://www.shirleymaclaine.com/images/ufo/ufotruck.jpg >>>I am curious about it's origins. Anyone? >>Jim, >>This is one of the many (in)famous Billie Meier (Swiss) photos >>of "beamships". You can see this very image, along with seven >>others, on the following Billie Meier website page: >>http://www.billymeier.com/Photo_Gallery.html >>Hope that helps, >>-Brian Cuthbertson >Thank you Brian, >I frankly do not recall ever seeing that one before. I visited >the site above and there were several more I did not recognize. >The photo on MacLaine's site looked familiar with three balls on >the bottom and the lines around the waist of the "ship." >I am probably asking a stupid question, knowing full well that >Meier's pics have been gone over with a fine tooth comb (that >is, presumably so), but has anyone analyzed this particular >photo with results to post? Brian or anyone, are there analyses >which have been done on these? >The reason I ask is that the Meier craft look... stunningly >familiar to me and I am not aware why this is so. There is >nothing in memory which I can retrieve, but still... it's just a >feeling. >If any of you can help, it would be appreciated. >Thanks in advance... for not laughing among other things. I hate >it when that happens. Uh, if the feeling comes on (to laugh) try >a little Gripple and Cream before responding. Hi again Jim: The Meier photos look very familiar to me also, ever since the late 1970s when Meier's $50 coffee table picture book came out. If $50 is pricey now, think back to the 1970s. I wasn't about to buy it, not even for the great scenery, so I just drank in the images. Nicely done really, and the UFOs made such willing and cooperative photo subjects. The "wedding cake" photo differs from Meier's other saucers, it looks something like a fancy aluminum jello mold to me. Perhaps that's why people didn't see the Meier connection earlier. Thanks for the link Brian, that says it all. Best wishes - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 17 UpDate: Re: First Man To Orbit - Hatch From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:07:58 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:35:35 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: First Man To Orbit - Hatch >Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 22:51:21 +0100 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >Subject: Re: First Man To Orbit >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Regarding: >>Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:14:12 -0300 >>From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca> >>Subject: First Man To Orbit [was: UCSD Scientists Find Rock Anomaly] >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Ilyushin's space flight preceeded Gagarin's by about three days. >>I'd like to nail down a good source on this. >Don, >If you haven't seen the following before, it might be helpful: >http://www.lostcosmonauts.com/ilyushin.htm Thanks James, That was a bit of an eye-opener. Essentially it was what I had heard/seen but without the details. Best, Don Ledger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 17 UpDate: Re: Need Support! - Mulvey From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 00:25:19 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:39:34 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Need Support! - Mulvey >Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 07:54:37 -0400 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Re: Need Support! >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Please, just take a few moments today to answer the thread >between John and Mr. Bigelow, and give us even a few words of >support. I know many abductees, and they and I would thank you >for supporting us.< Thanks for the push Liz. A while ago I took myself off this list because I was so busy. Two nights ago I decided to read the archives. I almost fell off my chair when I clicked on John's information nailing John Carpenter. As you can see, busy or not, I'm now back on this list and will be emailing/posting instructions to every person I know who is even remotely associated with this field, as soon as I finish writing this post. The heat is on. First I'd like to give John Velez a huge hug and standing ovation. John, you are a remarkable person and I feel proud to have shared some laughs with you while you manuvered your way on to CompuServe to be a guest on the UFO Forum a few years back. Thank you for following through on this issue and others. Thank you especially for your continued brave spirit as you 'get in the face' of those who deserve it. To Dr. Alexander and any other staff or personnel from NIDS who may be reading this list: In Dr. Alexander's UFO UpDates response to John he said "In most cases the identity of the individuals are protected. That is the situation here." Please know, protecting the identity "in most cases" isn't going to satisfy anybody, in particular those who trusted John Carpenter. On behalf of those people, and all of us who have, in good faith, been interviewed or filmed by any researcher in this field, I join John Velez and the others on this list, in asking that you and your colleagues do the right thing. Contact the individuals and give them the choice to participate in your studies; the choice that John Carpenter should have offered in the first place. It's unfortunate that NIDS has found itself in this position, but know that it doesn't hold a candle to the position that those abductees are in who trusted John Carpenter to be an ethical and conscientious researcher. Those who frequent the UFO Forum on CompuServe have all been made aware of this situation as I have kept them abreast by reposting John's Velez's information. Interesting to note, that it's not just abductees who are outraged that this breach of ethics has occurred, but folks from all aspects of interest in this field. Looks like one doesn't have to be an abductee to understand a kick in the teeth of this caliber. The ball is in NIDS court and it's a whopper. We'll all be watching and waiting to see if NIDS cares enough about those on the front lines of this field to restore some of the faith, that was sadly sold out by John Carpenter. Sincerely, Ann Mulvey
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 17 UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:20:42 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:42:06 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Gates >Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 05:19:30 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >BTW, John Carpenter's 'silence' throughout all this has been >_deafening!_ I suspect that John Carpenter will now turn into the "Bill Moore" of the 80s, i.e. Bill was kind of the point researcher on Roswell et al, then he unloads his "revelation" at the MUFON conf in Las Vegas? in 1989 that he was part of a government disinformation effort against UFO researchers. His stock and credibility instantly became zero to many in the UFO research community. Likewise with Carpenter peddling his 140 files and this entire sordid affair is now public, I suspect John will no longer be the commanding presence he once was in abduction research. Just a thought. cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 17 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc - Weber From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:34:30 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:47:02 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc - Weber *Errol, This is for the Carpenter/Bigelow thread. _____ From: Bill Weber <wweber1@sc.rr.com> To: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Subject: You can send this if you'd like Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:00:29 -0400 Hi, All, About five years ago I watched a Canadian documentary on the growing industry of selling information and it violated my notion of personal privacy. Driven by health insurance companies and small businesses wishing to provide benefits for employees, what would otherwise remain confidential medical records were finding their way into the private sector in the form of "claim" information, freely exchanged by insurance companies, and collected and sold by others for a nominal subscription fee. In short, type in a job applicant's social security number and get back an up to date and complete file on his or her medical/psychological profile - based on past insurance claims, collected public access records, hearsay, and rumor, all of which supply answers to questions that would be unconstitutional if asked during an interview process. That was five years ago, and God only knows what they can and do collect (and misuse) on each of us now. It's clear to me that my perception of privacy is hopelessly old fashioned - or at least lags far behind the speed of the internet. What Carpenter did leaves me more than a little shell-shocked and shocked in the same way as did the documentary. What Carpenter did may be legal, part of the "business" of research, and may even be small potatoes compared to the violations of privacy that happen to each of us everyday - whether we know it or not, but I find it none the less offensive on a very personal level. Because he "does what he does" he invites a powerless group of people to tell him the most personal aspects of their lives - and then he takes that information and sells them out. It reminds me of the line in 'Animal House;' "You fucked up, kid...you trusted us." It is my understanding that some people have actually been harmed by this action. Others don't even know about it. (I suppose _that's_ their fault too.)That's a damn shame. I suggest to abduction researchers who find this personally unethical practice a necessary fact of life, to simply consider extortion when they need some cash. Its more to the point, and far more profitable. Why wait for information to filter down to, say, employers, family members, or the general public? Why not just threaten to give it to potentially interested parties right up front? (Please forgive the hyperbole, but, ironically, if Carpenter wasn't a "professional" and this happened on a personal level, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.) Other researchers may think that the "greater good" is achieved in an exchange of this type. I don't. I urge NIDS to give the information back to those folks who unknowingly participated in their research. Best, Bill -- ______________________________________________ A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center - www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm jvif@spacelab.net "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ______________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 17 UpDate: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:59:08 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:52:57 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - Gates >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:24:29 -0700 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com> >Subject: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Yep Project Pluto - written up by Air and Space (Smithsonian) >back in I believe '95. This thing was a device that only could >have been thought of by Dr. Strangelove. >I think the engine was not the Pluto project, but the NERVA >atomic rocket project. The NERVA could have been used on >Planetary and perhaps, Stellar Missions, but the powers that had >been, said that it wasn't fair or some such thing. Later the >Russians flew a reactor that wasn't much different than NERVA's >- on their recon satillies. A few years back the visions of Pluto came back. I knew a top level official who attending a briefing. The presentor described a nuclear Ram Jet engine (ala Pluto type) but with current technology you could over come all the problems they had in the 60s. Anyway, the up-shot of it was that this nuclear powered cruise missile (with a nuke warhead of course) could stay aloft for 5 to 7 years waiting for the go code to hit targets in Russia/USSR. After the presentor extolled the virutues of this being un-manned, low cost, could stay in the air without refueling for 5-7 years, a SAC officer turned to my friend and said something to the effect of "The ultimate doomsday weapon." "When can we get these in production." My friends response was "Would you consider riding one in... Strangelove esque style." The response was a blank stare and the question 'Who is Strangelove?' Kind of funny. Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 17 UpDate: Re: nother MJ-12 Source - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:29:41 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:50:18 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: nother MJ-12 Source - Gates >Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:44:34 -0400 >Subject: Another MJ-12 Source >From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Met another MJ12 source. Individual is a senior retired AF >officer who participated in many black projects. >He found the Dan Sherman's 'Project Preserve Destiny' book very >plausible and spoke of US studies to manipulate EM mentally. He >also thought the principle of noise cancellation could be >applied to destroy and/or control weapon systems. >His assertions: - MJ12 is an unacknowledged agency/program >headquartered at NORAD >- Been around since at least the 50's >- He referred to the Greys as 'the Visitors' >- It is a composite agency drawing from CIA, NSA, DIA...etc for >a very small staffing and a multi-billion dollar budget >- MJ12 exploits and disseminates information of alien origin to > other US Government agencies and facilities strategic and > tactical military advantages >- Had first hand access to classified information affirming the > alien nature of the Roswell crash >- MJ12 spends a lot of money and resources on secure > communications [C4I] that could survive an EMP from oh say a > massive Solar flare... >- MJ12 is a ruthless bunch >- While at Sandia, read a Top Secret material analysis report of > alien debris recovered near Roswell >- US has its own flying saucers >Other Stuff >- Been many times to Area 51. While there would be black out > period requiring himself and other high ranking officers to > locked in a guarded underground room >- Stealth aircraft development benefited from MJ12 supplied > materials and processes. > >- US nuclear weapons design has benefited for MJ12 >- The US has will assassinates foreign nations in the US. Upon > approval from a special chain of command, special forces will > be dispatched to 'execute' the mission >- Thought that some of the alien technology exploitation was > conducted by another agency at WPAFB >Best Regards, >Bob Huff > >"Given a choice between two theories, take the one which is funnier." After I read the above, it reminded me of Richard Hoagland's so-called never wrong, never told a like in their life, top drawer, intelligence community sources who were feeding him various pieces of information that never came true, like last years ET's were going to land on an Arizona mountain top etc etc. Anyways after I had a good chuckle reading through the post, then I read your bottom line about taking the funnier of the theories as I LOL :) You should ask this source if he had any info on JFK's brain, or Elvis being still alive somewhere, it would have been funnier. Thanks for a funny post, I appreciated it. Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 17 UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 02:30:07 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:55:37 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 05:19:30 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Hi All, I have tried repeatedly (at several numbers) to contact John Carpenter by telephone. I keep getting 'wrong numbers.' I'd like to ask what I think are a few valid questions. Where is John Carpenter and why haven't we heard a word from him? In spite of all the other 'confirmation' that we have regarding this transaction, he should be given an opportunity to state his side of the story. We should also have an opportunity to ask Mr. Carpenter a few pointed questions regarding this transaction. I know that I'd certainly like to. Why haven't we heard from any of the other abduction researchers regarding their thoughts/feelings about this? Where is Budd or David or John Mack throughout all this? There is a conspicuous absence of major or well known _abduction researchers_ regarding this issue. Some of the names I have mentioned are among the very people that need to speak out and make their voices heard regarding the 'questionable' behavior and ethics of one of their peers. Jenny Randles is right. We need to get these guys to sign on to an agreed upon set of operating guidelines regarding the rights of witnesses/abductees. Carpenter may end up weaseling his way out of this on a legal technicality and walk away cleaner than Skeeter's peter! (With no accountability, and able to continue writing and lecturing as always.) Where are all these folks? John Carpenter, Budd Hopkins, David Jacobs, John Mack, Yvonne Smith, any comments please? We need to hear from you. We also need to know if any of you have engaged in similar transactions with Mr. Bigelow. At this stage, continued silence on the issue would only serve to raise more questions. Please take the time to post 'something' in regard to this sale of abductee files for cash business. I (and many others) will look forward to hearing from each of you. (Any 'abduction researchers' whose names I may have omitted; please feel free to comment as well.) All abductees need to know 'who else' besides Mr. Carpenter sold files to Mr. Bigelow. Anyone laboring under the delusion that this was an isolated 'one shot deal' is sadly mistaken. We've only scratched the surface. There _are_ others. Imagine how many other 'deals' went down over the years unnoticed. Ones that we'll never know about. I shudder. Budd Hopkins has all of my personal reports/hypnosis sessions/ interviews in his files. I know that I am now very curious if any of that has been transferred and to whom. I'm also curious about what the disposition of my personal information/tapes will be in the eventuality of Budd's passing. I'd like to know that the file and the tapes will be returned to me and that the instruction for the executor of his estate to do so exists in writing. I'm not alone in those concerns in light of this Carpenter business. Budd is an honest and ethical man, but I'd feel better now if I had it all in writing! Anyone else in a similar situation with _any_ researcher should do the same. Anyone care to give me odds that we'll hear from any of these folks? <VBEG> Regards, John Velez -- ______________________________________________ A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center - www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm jvif@spacelab.net "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ______________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 17 UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Kippenberger From: Corky Kippenberger <KIPPENBERGER@cs.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:19:52 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:33:23 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Kippenberger >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 02:30:07 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 05:19:30 -0400 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Hi All, >I have tried repeatedly (at several numbers) to contact John >Carpenter by telephone. I keep getting 'wrong numbers.' John, I too have tried to contact Carpenter, and have had no success. I felt when this news first broke that he needed an opportunity to refute the charges or at least to explain himself. He refuses to answer. That is enough answer for me. No news, in this case, is bad news for Carpenter and for the 140 people whose files were sold. I don't think that Carpenter will be out on the lecture circuit or will have any success in selling books in the field again. We simply refuse to spend one more nickel on him and he's done... I hope he was paid enough for the files to support his retirement of that he has a day job to which he can return<EG> I think that you raise another valid point. Where are the other researchers and what is their posture on this event? Who's hiding what? Thanks John, Keekoo
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 17 UpDate: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale From: mcastner@=====.COM Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 10:17:39 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:38:58 -0400 Subject: UpDate: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale "William E. Jones" wrote: >I have been following the discussions about Carpenter's abduction file sale >to Bigelow with interest. I would have posted this on UFO Updates if I knew >how. >While ithe sale wasn't illegal, it may have been unetical. It sure didn't >make John or ufology in general look good. There has been a lot of talk >stating that such files shouldn't be transferred because of witness >expectations and their need and right to privacy. There seems to be a thread >running through these discussion that abductees expect that their files won't >be shared. Now that may be, but it is unrealistic. Why? Becasue of our >mortaility. When an abduction researcher dies those file are up for grabs at >some point. I suppose surviving spouses usually destroy stuff like this, but >not all. Abductees cannot assume that their files will never get into the >public domain. Chances are in the long run, they will. >If we as ufologists don't want this to happen, then we had better start >talking about this issue along with the fact that John may have been a "bad >ufologist." >Bill Jones >MUFON State Director for Ohio Bill, There is a legal problem as John Carpenter is a MSW, LCSW, thus it's illegal for him to sell client's files. Doesn't matter if he did it in the capacity of of a Social Worker or not. If he has a license then any thing he does related to counseling falls under client privilege. In the counseling world the law doesn't differentiate between counseling in the office on on a mountain top. The can't say in the office I am a social worker but working with abductees I am not a social work. Such files can only be transferred to another licensed doctor with clients "[written] consent" or destroyed after X number of years. I suggest he be reported to the "Social Working Examining and Disciplinary Board" of the state in which he resides or at the national level. Laws vary from state to state, but I don't believe John has a leg to stand on here. In fact, if someone will give me his address and phone number [off line is ok too] I will report him myself. Also need something to show that he is indeed trying to sell the files or at least witnesses to such conversations. Number one law of the profession "Do no harm". This action is unexcusable. I am surprised no one else has reported him. BTW: I am making a difference between reports filed on UFO sightings or encounters and working in a counseling manner with abductees. While I am at it I might as well mention that we see so much TV on doctors and their interactions with clients/patients that we end up thinking some of the things we see are standard when they are not, for example for a psychologist to met a client at a party he must not disclose that he knows her or that she is a client and it would be best if he left the party. [Don't believe it then talk to my old supervisor.]
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 17 UpDate: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale From: Karl Pflock <Ktperehwon@AOL.COM> Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 14:52:48 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:50:24 -0400 Subject: UpDate: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale Bill et al.-- >Perhaps ufologists or abduction investigators should sign up to a code of >conduct that includes answers to this issue. Problem that that this isn't >required by law. You don't need a license to practice ufology. >Frankly, this problem probably can't really be addressed except by censure >within the field, such as happening right now. Hopefully situations like this >will keep everyone a bit more alert. Everyone should read Jenny Randles' excellent post. I think she's hit every nail on the head (as has Mark with respect to the medical professional's legal and ethical obligations). Perhaps North American ufology ought to call in Jenny as a consultant--assuming someone over here is willing to step up to the responsibility. A code of conduct and a central clearing house for info on who's signed up and not and who's violated the code would be a big step along the looooonnnnnnnggggggggggg road to professionalism in ufology. Meanwhile, shame on John Carpenter, even if he may ultimately wiggle through a legal loophole. Sounds like "no controlling legal authority" to me. Sheesh!! -- Cheers, KARL
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 17 UpDate: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale From: mcastner@======.com Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 20:11:43 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:38:19 -0400 Subject: UpDate: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale "Steven W. Kaeser" wrote: >All- >Since John Carpenter is from Missouri, I've located a site that >contains the Rules and Regulations for Social Workers in that >state: ><http://mosl.sos.state.mo.us/csr/4csr.htm#4-263 >Division 263 deals with regulations pertaining to Social Workers and the >pertinent chapter appears to be: >Chapter 3 - Ethical Standards/Disciplinary Rules >The regulations are in PDF format and must be downloaded for >viewing and if anyone has problems downloading this directly >from the State site, I've placed the appropriate file on my own >site and it can be downloaded by selecting: ><http://www.konsulting.com/steve/MO_SW.pdf>http://www.konsulting.com/steve/MO_ SW.pdf >It appears that the regulations are established at a State >level (probably following Federal guidelines). I found a >number of other state guidelines, and some dealing with >"Privilaged Communication" were only a few paragraphs long in >some cases. >Hope this is of interest in the discussion. >Steve Hi Steve, I will follow up in the next couple of days and see what I can find out. As I looked over the regulations I noticed that under CSR 263-3.080 Public Statement/Fees (c) use relationships with therapeutic or therapy clients to promote for personal gain or profit of an agency, commercial enterprise of any kind,.... Selling a client's sanitized files for personal gain might fall under this regulation. It also seems to state that a sanitazed version may be used by the therapist for teaching or case studies, but that the forwarding of any information to another party is prohibited without written consent. I also noticed that under Chapter 4 Disciplinary Proceedings those regulations where rescinded July 30, 1999. I would hate to think there is no longer any avenue for public complaint available and a lawyer or the like must be used. There is referral to the Research Code of Federal Regulations when doing research on human subjects. So federal regulations may kick in here. Interesting situation here. I will be curious to see how the Dept of Economic Development views a social worker selling client files. Regards, Mary
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 17 UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:32:28 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:39:30 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website >Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 17:59:30 -0700 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >Subject: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Cuthbertson >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> Brian, Jim and Stig: >Yep! That's the one all right. I spoke too soon. I take it >Shirley Maclaine has bought into the Billy Meier story. If so, >she could have "credited" Meier with the photo. Larry, et al- This site looks like a publisher's promotional site, rather than a site that Shirley Maclaine has a great deal of direct input into. I don't know if you've read much of her material, but it doesn't surprise me that she would take a completely philosophical view to UFOlogy. It is apparent that she hasn't performed research into the field, and equates "contactees" with "abductees" in her limited writing on the site. Her books have always taken a "new age" stance with regard to lights in the sky, and as I recall she had a significant experience in South America involving a UFO. Certainly the information that she is providing at the site is elementary in its nature, and geared toward promotion of her books. I would note that there isn't really a place to go to send her a note or ask a question, but she would certainly like to have material submitted for possible inclusion. Oh well. The Internet's a big place and there's room for all. Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 17 UpDate: Re: Need Support! - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:13:34 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:41:44 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Need Support! - Hammond >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 00:25:19 -0400 >From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Need Support! >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 07:54:37 -0400 >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Re: Need Support! >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Please, just take a few moments today to answer the thread >>between John and Mr. Bigelow, and give us even a few words of >>support. I know many abductees, and they and I would thank you >>for supporting us.< >Thanks for the push Liz. >A while ago I took myself off this list because I was so busy. >Two nights ago I decided to read the archives. I almost fell off >my chair when I clicked on John's information nailing John >Carpenter. As you can see, busy or not, I'm now back on this >list and will be emailing/posting instructions to every person I >know who is even remotely associated with this field, as soon as >I finish writing this post. The heat is on. Dear Ann: Thank you so much for jumping in here! You are the breath of outside air needed to really get the ball rolling all over the Net, not just this List! It's helped to give me back a bit of my faith in humanity to hear about what's happening on other forums. This isn't just an issue for these 140 people, although they are, of course , the most important aspect of this whole episode. I beleive, and now it seems, many others beleive, that it is an issue that involves everyone in any way connected to this field! Thanks again! You are exactley the kind of person we need, many times over to keep this issue in the forefront until it's resolved. You go girl! Yours, Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 17 UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Kaeser From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:42:24 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:44:24 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Kaeser >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:19:52 -0400 (EDT) >From: Corky Kippenberger <KIPPENBERGER@cs.com> >Subject: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 02:30:07 -0400 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 05:19:30 -0400 >>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>Subject: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Hi All, >>I have tried repeatedly (at several numbers) to contact John >>Carpenter by telephone. I keep getting 'wrong numbers.' >John, >I too have tried to contact Carpenter, and have had no success. >I felt when this news first broke that he needed an opportunity >to refute the charges or at least to explain himself. He refuses >to answer. That is enough answer for me. No news, in this case, >is bad news for Carpenter and for the 140 people whose files >were sold. >I don't think that Carpenter will be out on the lecture circuit >or will have any success in selling books in the field again. We >simply refuse to spend one more nickel on him and he's done... >I hope he was paid enough for the files to support his >retirement of that he has a day job to which he can return<EG> >I think that you raise another valid point. Where are the other >researchers and what is their posture on this event? Who's >hiding what? >Thanks John, All- If John (Carpenter) still resides in Missouri, and I have no reason to believe that he has moved, then he's probably been at the MUFON Symposium in St. Louis. Of that only accounts for the past several days and doesn't explain why he hasn't responded to messages that are sent. I believe that John (Velez) indicated that he only got wrong numbers when he attempted to call, but I assume that messages have been left for Carpenter. It is unfortunate that Carpenter has remained silent on this, and I suspect that other researchers are waiting for the official investigation to be completed before they weigh in on the matter. It may well be that the sale of information by other researchers has taken place, and there's always a chance that NIDS isn't the only buyer. As a comment, I believe that abduction research was only a volunteer effort on the part of Carpenter, and he would still have his "day job" to keep going. Payment for most lectures usually covers the expenses incurred, but not much else. As far as book sales are concerned, I cannot find a single title that is now for sale at AMAZON.COM by John Carpenter (However, I did find one in which he had written the Foreward). The threat of refusing to purchase his books seems somewhat empty unless he has something in the works. To be truly held accountable for his actions, I believe that one of the clients will have to file legal action again Carpenter and go through the Hell that will entail (if there indeed grounds to file suit). Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 17 UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:48:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:47:05 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 02:30:07 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >To: updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 05:19:30 -0400 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Why haven't we heard from any of the other abduction researchers >regarding their thoughts/feelings about this? Where is Budd or >David or John Mack throughout all this? There is a conspicuous >absence of major or well known _abduction researchers_ regarding >this issue. >Some of the names I have mentioned are among the very people >that need to speak out and make their voices heard regarding the >'questionable' behavior and ethics of one of their peers. <snip> >John Carpenter, Budd Hopkins, David Jacobs, John Mack, Yvonne >Smith, any comments please? We need to hear from you. We also >need to know if any of you have engaged in similar transactions >with Mr. Bigelow. At this stage, continued silence on the issue >would only serve to raise more questions. Please take the time >to post 'something' in regard to this sale of abductee files for >cash business. I (and many others) will look forward to hearing >from each of you. (Any 'abduction researchers' whose names I may Dear John & List: I have been wondering the same thing. By today, about a full week or so since you first bought all this to light, it is getting downright insulting that none of these "Big Guns" have even so much as dropped in to say "I don't care for this either". At this point, I feel I have only to assume that this deafening silence is caused by guilt. What else is one to think? Can anyone come up with a better explaination? Could they all be on vacation togther somewhere? Is there a large conference going on at which they are all in attendance? If so, I would hope to hear from them the minute they return! I firmly beleive that Budd Hopkins is one of the most ethical, caring people I have ever met. I would like to think that this is not a practice he would ever involve himself with. But without his actually coming onto the List and saying so, who can be sure? I also have files and tapes at Budd's. Not nearly the volumn of yours John as I only saw Budd once, and for personal reasons, have not seen him again. I do, however, want my materials, whatever they may be, returned to me in the event that Budd no longer controls them. There is a small file and at least one tape. Not much, but enough for me! Budd, I trusted you implicitley. I told you things that not even my husband had ever heard. I felt comfortable enough with you to allow you to hypnotise me and talked, under hypnosis, about what was for me, a shattering and life altering event. Please, reafirm that my trust in you was rightly placed by just letting me know that this behaviour we have been discussing is not something that you condone or practice. I would very much appreciate it. I would ask that other abductees, working with any of the researchers John named, contact them, here on the List, or privately if you prefer, and ask them to come forward. Either to condemn the recent actions of John Carpenter, or explain why they won't. Yes, as a whole, these are wonderful, caring people who have given up huge portions of thier own private lives to help us. That fact doesn't alter the very real responsibility that they have towards us. All these people have made money, of whatever amount, on what we, as a group, have suffered. They have gained our trust and affection, and in return have been given the gift of our trust, which we do not give lightly, given what we have suffered through. All we are saying is that now is the time to let us all know that this trust was not misplaced. Two lines isn't too much to ask. And two lines is all it would take. "No, I don't condone what John Carpenter did. And, no, I have never engaged in anything similar myself." Feel free to just copy that and sign it. Yours, Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 17 UpDate: Re: Need Support! - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:08:00 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:49:27 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Need Support! - Velez >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 00:25:19 -0400 >From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Need Support! >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 07:54:37 -0400 >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Re: Need Support! >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Please, just take a few moments today to answer the thread >>between John and Mr. Bigelow, and give us even a few words of >>support. I know many abductees, and they and I would thank you >>for supporting us.< >Thanks for the push Liz. >A while ago I took myself off this list because I was so busy. >Two nights ago I decided to read the archives. I almost fell off >my chair when I clicked on John's information nailing John >Carpenter. As you can see, busy or not, I'm now back on this >list and will be emailing/posting instructions to every person I >know who is even remotely associated with this field, as soon as >I finish writing this post. The heat is on. Hi Ann! First, thank you for the response. I was beginning to think that the whole issue would just fade away like so many other threads without any serious discussion or resolution. I'm glad to see that that is not happening here. By all means (and by all menas necessary) notify as many folks as you can and encourage them to communicate their thoughts and feelings about all this to Dr. Alexander and NIDS via this List. (UFO UpDates) >First I'd like to give John Velez a huge hug Thanx, needed one just about now! :) >and standing ovation. No applause, just throw money! Cash incentive seems to be the way 'things get done' in ufology. <LOL> >John, you are a remarkable person and I feel proud to >have shared some laughs with you while you manuvered your way on >to CompuServe to be a guest on the UFO Forum a few years back. Cheeses, Mary, and Joseph, have those guys made it any easier for guests to log onto the forum? Even with the CD you provided it was a chore! Once inside, I did enjoyed the time I spent with the folks at the CompuServe UFO Forum very much. Haven't heard from you in awhile, I'm glad to hear from you now, and to know that you're still out there and involved. >Thank you for following through on this issue and others. Thank >you especially for your continued brave spirit as you 'get in >the face' of those who deserve it. "Getting in people's faces" can be a risky business. I _never_ do it unless I absolutely have to. This was a case where I had to. <LOL> We are abductees Ann. What happens to these people happens to us. If (we) don't speak out now, what's to stop anyone else from converting the personal reports and information obtained from abductees into cash. Privacy and anonymity are _not_ for sale. That message needs to be sent and burned into the minds of any researchers who may begin to think of their abductee clients as a convenient commodity. A 'cash cow.' >To Dr. Alexander and any other staff or personnel from NIDS who >may be reading this list: > >In Dr. Alexander's UFO UpDates response to John he said "In most >cases the identity of the individuals are protected. That is the >situation here." Please know, protecting the identity "in most >cases" isn't going to satisfy anybody, in particular those who >trusted John Carpenter. > >On behalf of those people, and all of us who have, in good >faith, been interviewed or filmed by any researcher in this >field, I join John Velez and the others on this list, in asking >that you and your colleagues do the right thing. Contact the >individuals and give them the choice to participate in your >studies; the choice that John Carpenter should have offered in >the first place. It's unfortunate that NIDS has found itself in >this position, but know that it doesn't hold a candle to the >position that those abductees are in who trusted John Carpenter >to be an ethical and conscientious researcher. Thank you for taking the time to post Ann. It is needed now more than ever. Only _twenty_ of the 140 individuals even know that John Carpenter has sold their files/info to Robert Bigelow. They need to be informed. We also need to find out 'who else' took advantage of the opportunity and sold abductee files to Mr. Bigelow. There _are_ others. If it was me... I would definitely want to know if my personal files had been sold and to whom. No ifs, ands, or buts. Warmest regards, John Velez, Feeling not so alone any more. :)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 17 UpDate: Major UFO Incident And Video Footage From: Tim Mathews <TMMatthews99@aol.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:30:47 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:54:16 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Major UFO Incident And Video Footage Dear All, released today - all enquiries to me direct please. Thanks. ................. BUFOSC - BRITISH UFO STUDIES CENTRE PRESS RELEASE Phone; 01606 330567 Mobile; (07979) 261640 and (07944) 047195 Email; VMAUFO@cs.com and TMMatthews99@aol.com "Best Ever UFO Video" Captured By Cheshire Man! Researchers at the Cheshire-based British UFO Studies Centre, which recently celebrated its 20th birthday, have been shocked by the emergence of a new and remarkable video of an anomalous object captured by a Northwich man last on Sunday afternoon, July 9th 2000. The man saw the strange object in the sky at around 1400 and asked his wife to bring his video camera out so he could try and film the phenomenon. He was able to capture what experts at the British UFO Studies Centre say is the "best ever UFO footage". UFO Magazine's Russ Callaghan saw the footage on 16th July and says that it is "the best footage I have ever seen." The witness also recorded traffic using his frequency scanner which clearly indicates the presence of civilian passenger aircraft in the immediate vicinity at that time. There is a suggestion that aircraft may have been diverted away from the area. BUFOSC believes that this raises urgent issues relating to air safety. This sighting was followed on 12th July by a major incident over nearby Stoke-on-Trent, where witnesses report seeing a UFO being "chased by three aircraft and a Chinook helicopter". (There are a number of major military exercises currently underway in the UK.) Eric Morris - BUFOSC Director - and Tim Matthews, well-known author and researcher of mysteries both ancient and modern - have both been amazed by the quality of the images, the clarity of the material and the object itself. Morris notes the incidence of strange phenomena in the South Manchester area and adds that Air Traffic Controllers they have spoken to are aware that, in the past, military test vehicles strayed into civilian airspace. "The best-known similar case was the so-called 'Manchester Near-Miss' in January 1995 where two airline pilots made an official report to the Civil Aviation Authority about a wedge-shaped object that shot past their plane whilst on approach to Manchester International" said Morris. But the researchers are not coming to any conclusions yet; they have contacted the Ministry of Defence's Nick Pope, the man who shot to prominence after challenging his employer's official line that UFOs are of "no defence significance." Morris, Matthews and Pope, who is actively assisting BUFOSC with its enquiries, all believe that UFOs are of Extreme Defence Significance. There does not appear to be a prosaic explanation for the object seen on film - and it is very similar to UFOs captured on film in and around the Nellis Test Range, home to Area 51 in the Nevada Desert. Although the vast majority of UFO sightings - around 95% - are misidentifications of mundane phenomena, occasionally something like this fires the imagination. Checks with Manchester Air Traffic Control, the MOD and other official bodies are continuing but thus far nobody has been able to shed light on this mystery. It is, of course, BUFOSC's view that if objects like this are able to appear at will and operate in or near busy and restricted airspace, then somebody must have an answer. Nevertheless, answers are not often forthcoming... This may become the most famous UFO footage of all time. ENDS. .................. BUFOSC welcomes calls from the press and public on; Tel; (01606) 330567/41617 Mobile; (24hrs) (07944) 047195 and (07979) 261640 Email; VMAUFO@cs.com and TMMatthews99@aol.com "BUFOSC runs the National UFO Reports Centre."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 17 UpDate: Re: Another MJ12 Source - Huff From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:14:30 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:29:41 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Another MJ12 Source - Huff >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:29:41 -0400 (EDT) >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Another MJ-12 Source >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:44:34 -0400 >>Subject: Another MJ-12 Source >>From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >After I read the above, it reminded me of Richard Hoagland's >so-called never wrong, never told a like in their life, top >drawer, intelligence community sources who were feeding him >various pieces of information that never came true, like last >years ET's were going to land on an Arizona mountain top etc >etc. >Anyways after I had a good chuckle reading through the post, >then I read your bottom line about taking the funnier of the >theories as I LOL :) You should ask this source if he had any >info on JFK's brain, or Elvis being still alive somewhere, it >would have been funnier. >Thanks for a funny post, I appreciated it. Robert, Have you ever spoke with someone with claims to have direct knowledge of or have worked for MJ12? I have spoken with 10 such persons - from retired AF COLs in line to be vice AF commander to NRO contractors to TRW employees working in clandestine intel gathering to FBI/Treasury agents to former OMB auditors. They all say it exists and tell the same 'story'. Example #1: Individual worked as an auditor for OMB in the '80s. He audited classified programs in the Old Executive Building in DC. There he saw and read about a variety of programs that dealt with aliens. Not only did he see a reference to MJ12 but in 1987 went to Ft Meade to meet with them. Example #2: Retired AF COL who worked nuclear and stealth programs. As earlier posted, read about Roswell at Sandia. Elsewhere, saw written references to MJ12 and its MAJESTIC codeword. I am a West Point grad who worked a contractor with a number of intelligence agencies - NSA, NRO, CIA, DIA, AIA, NIMA - and developed some patented technology (5,764,973) to assist NSA. I have personally met with the past Deputy Directors of NSA (Bill Crowell) and CIA/SS&T (Dr. Ruth David) in their offices. I speak their lingo and know who to ask about things - like MJ12. I find your dismissive attitude amusing. Your choice. Best Regards, Bob Huff "Given a choice between two theories, take the one which is funnier."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 17 UpDate: Re: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:14:50 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:34:06 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Mortellaro >Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 20:11:43 -0500 >From: mcastner@======.com >Subject: Re: John Carpenter's Sale >To: project-1947@listserv.aol.com >"Steven W. Kaeser" wrote: >>All- >>Since John Carpenter is from Missouri, I've located a site that >>contains the Rules and Regulations for Social Workers in that >>state: >><http://mosl.sos.state.mo.us/csr/4csr.htm#4-263> >>Division 263 deals with regulations pertaining to Social Workers and the >>pertinent chapter appears to be: >>Chapter 3 - Ethical Standards/Disciplinary Rules >>The regulations are in PDF format and must be downloaded for >>viewing and if anyone has problems downloading this directly >>from the State site, I've placed the appropriate file on my own >>site and it can be downloaded by selecting: ><http://www.konsulting.com/steve/MO_SW.pdf>http://www.konsulting.com/steve/ >MO_SW.pdf >>It appears that the regulations are established at a State >>level (probably following Federal guidelines). I found a >>number of other state guidelines, and some dealing with >>"Privilaged Communication" were only a few paragraphs long in >>some cases. >>Hope this is of interest in the discussion. >>Steve >Hi Steve, >I will follow up in the next couple of days and see what I can >find out. As I looked over the regulations I noticed that under >CSR 263-3.080 Public Statement/Fees (c) use relationships with >therapeutic or therapy clients to promote for personal gain or >profit of an agency, commercial enterprise of any kind,.... >Selling a client's sanitized files for personal gain might fall >under this regulation. It also seems to state that a sanitazed >version may be used by the therapist for teaching or case >studies, but that the forwarding of any information to another >party is prohibited without written consent. >I also noticed that under Chapter 4 Disciplinary Proceedings >those regulations where rescinded July 30, 1999. I would hate to >think there is no longer any avenue for public complaint >available and a lawyer or the like must be used. There is >referral to the Research Code of Federal Regulations when doing >research on human subjects. So federal regulations may kick in >here. >Interesting situation here. I will be curious to see how the >Dept of Economic Development views a social worker selling >client files. Dear Mary, other interested posters and EBK; Your posts seem to point to Carpenter as being the party working against the laws. Bigelow is not the MSW. He's a wealthy man attempting to get at the bottom of this conundrum. Finally, someone with deep pockets, not just a deep throat, eh? By saying this, I am not defending Bigelow, just making a point. Both are guilty of doing wrong if not anything else. But not of wrong doing in the strict essence of the law. But there are other concerns in this entire thread which have been nagging at me for some time. For example, the question has been raised as to why the well known and respected researchers have not come forward and commented on this thread. Why? Somebody gotta aks that question? If I were a researcher, the last thing I would have done is respond, whether guilty or innocent. If guilty, then to say what, "I am guilty!"? Properly, no. For to admit guilt would place the offendee in a poor legal position should this entire sordid affair go to the courts. If not guilty, then still a poor idea to respond. For in our circles, "guilt by association" is the inevitable route of that trolley car. Better to stay out of it (from a legal standpoint) than get mixed up in this fray. I am sure that we all recall the wrath I drew when I suggested that the names of the innocent be posted. Apparently, this was because the complainant did not know who the innocent were. Notwithstanding, the questions were raised by many, not merely me. My point is simply that if an innocent party chooses to respond to allegations prior to the determining of just who is to be accused, is legally, pretty stupid. I am sure that none of the researchers whom we all mutually respect, are not stupid. There is another issue. That of sharing information. A lot of mail here on UpDates has been generated by a few, requesting researchers to share their data. Ironically, it is highly unlikely that this will happen in the foreseeable future due to this latest information. That's bad. But on a more positive note, abductees will tend to be more careful, as will researchers, with what is done with information. As for Bigelow or NIDS ... nothing has been mentioned as to what NIDS planned to do with this data. Was Carpenter supposed to transfer his data sanitized or not? And how did Bigelow expect it to arrive? Most important, how did NIDS plan on using the information. If the data was not to be shared with anyone else, which appears to be the NIDS modus operandi, then the point is mute (in terms of wrong doing by NIDS or Bigelow). Who, if any, of the NIDS staff were to see the data and in what form? The fact that one person's data package was returned with nothing blacked out does not necessarily mean that this was the manner in which it was supposed to be used. It lessens the PI nature of NIDS' actions, but not Carpenter's actions. These are questions. Not answers. And before we go off and start to point to an even more growing list of targets, perhaps we should respectfully force the alleged guilty parties to make their cases. In order to do that, one of our respected attorneys online should make themselves available for a class action suit against the allegedly guilty parties, eh? Any volunteers? Sure, "The check is in the male and don't worry sweetheart, I'm sterile." Jim Mortellaro
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 17 UpDate: Re: First Man To Orbit - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:26:03 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:36:20 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: First Man To Orbit - Balaskas >Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 00:21:58 -0500 >From: Bruce Wright <magnus@io.com> >Subject: Re: First Man To Orbit >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 22:51:21 +0100 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: First Man To Orbit >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >>http://www.lostcosmonauts.com/ilyushin.htm >Gentlemen: pardon a lurker for interjecting, but I feel I must >point out that this website also repeats the "dying cosomonauts >monitored via radio" story that has been doing the rounds for >some 35 years; I first read it in 1965. Hi Bruce. In 'Flying Saucers - Serious Business' (1966) by Frank Edwards we are told that "I [Frank Edwards] made headlines around the world in June of 1962 with the detailed report of five Soviet space casualities." so the origins of these stories are not just later day rumours. In 1962 the U.S. also successfully placed men into orbit around the Earth with NASA's Mercury/Atlas and achieved all sorts of speed and alitude records with the military's X-15 rocket plane which was flown by U.S. Air Force pilots, earning some of them their 'astronaut wings'. It is interesting to note that UFOs were present on John Glenn's Mercury orbital flight and Joe Walker's and Bob White's X-15 flights that same year. We all know about the fireflies or "critters" John observed from his space capsule but do you also recall Bruce when Joe talked to NBC about the five disk or cylindrical objects that flew in formation with his rocket plane? The motion picture films of these UFOs were shown at the same news conference in Seattle. Where are these UFO films now? >There is considerable doubt about both this tale and the >Ilyushin story, to put it mildly indeed. James Oberg, who I >realize may not be particularly popular in certain quarters of >saucerdom, is nonetheless the west's greatest living expert on >the Soviet space program; he researched these questions in >detail and concluded they were myths--while simultaneously >uncovering some cosmonaut trainee deaths that were never >reported, so it's not like the Russians were above dissembling >about space-related failures. In all, though, I would ask you to >wear your alien autopsy spectacles while reading this site. Nonsense. We may say nasty things to each other and criticize anything we disagree with here but I am sure deep down we all love James Oberg too and cannot imagine what saucerdom would be without him! As for James being the west's greatest living expert on the Soviet space program, lets not over do it now - James' ego is already inflated too much and we don't need to encourage him further. ;o) This morning I spoke with two Russian graduate students (one of them is the son of a high ranking official during the Brezhnev era) doing work in space sciences here at York U. and I asked for their opinions about what they saw in the URL above. They were impressed but not surprised and had some very interesting related stories of their own but they reminded me that in the new Russia even Generals and Heros of the Soviet Union have to eat. When western reporters are all too anxious to get the big story and resort to checkbook journalism to get it, the temptation for some Russians to embellish their stories is too great but few tell outright lies. Their pride is more important than money. Now if you can no longer trust the actual winesses or independent sources anymore, then I guess even all the material that has been collected by careful researchers such as James Oberg and published in many books is also subject to considerable doubt, especially when official documents and even photos have been found to have been doctored with. As for the disturbing dying cosmonaut accounts found in the URL above, such as the May 1961 fatal flight of the first woman in space, it is interesting to quote something from Jame Oberg's book 'Red Star in Orbit'. "The one named Valentina Tereshkova is the only one we know about, although the first names of two others, Tanya and Irina, were published many years later. Of the fourth young woman, not even her name is known, although one foreign journalist claimed it was Ludmilla..." (p. 64) "(Her mother learned that Valentina was a cosmonaut when the flight was announced over Radio Moscow.)" (p. 65) "In 1976 at a press conference at the NASA Space Center in Houston, I [James Oberg] asked her [Valentina Tereshkova] who and where the other three woman cosmonaut trainees were; immediately she demanded that I be expelled from the meeting room - and I was.)" (p. 67) Like Yuri Gagarin who allegedly was not very happy to find out that he was not the first man to orbit the Earth, maybe Valentina Tereshkova's reaction can be understood if she also knew she was not the first woman to orbit the Earth. How can we ever know the truth about the Soviet space program? Once this generation of eyewitnesses dies out then even the memory of the Soviet Union's - and the world's - secret space heros will be lost forever, except to God. This should not be allowed to happen. Nick Balaskas
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 17 UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:31:32 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:43:00 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Mortellaro >Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 17:47:38 -0700 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >Subject: Re: MacLaine Opens Website >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 14:55:04 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: MacLaine Opens Website To Tell Of Her UFO Encounters >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 12:26:28 +0200 >>>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> >>>Subject: MacLaine Opens Website To Tell Of Her UFO Encounters >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Source: The Wolf Files on ABC News, July 15, 2000, >>>http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/WolfFiles/wolffiles.html >>>Stig >>>By Buck Wolf >><snip> >>Thank you Stig, as usual, >>Ms. MacLaine's site is interesting. But one of the pictures >>shown was strange an new to me. I have never seen before. >>Does anyone know anything about this photo on her site: >>http://www.shirleymaclaine.com/images/ufo/ufotruck.jpg >>I am curious about it's origins. Anyone? >I just took a look at the photo. I find it not very convincing. >The image looks like a small object very close, perhaps >suspended from above. You cannot see above the object. Dear Larry of Hatchdom, Brian, Other Listers and EBK, I really hate to admit this, but when it comes to photos, I tend not to be so careful in the area of analysis. I have to leave that up to the X-Spurts. Occasionally, I even leave it up to an expert. I must have seen these pix somewhere in my deep, dark past. At least my past is deep and dark, and not deep, dark, warm and moist. Anyway, they are still familiar but not in that "strange" way. As to the "look," shoot, it's a picture. And I was taught to respect that which is (allegedly) worth a thousand words. Until the Internet, I was not aware of the sort and variety of words that a picture might be worth. I remember once, when working for Gremlin Airtrash, one of the astronomers decided I was fair game. I was. He showed me a Polaroid of an astronomical spacecraft, supposedly taken by one of the Apollo crew during a flight. I showed it around to all my friends and all they could say was, "This stupid picture is a forkina drawing, Jim. You of all people should no better." Well, I didn't. And that astronomer (whom I still love dearly) spent decades bringing his sleeve up to his mouth and loudly laughing up it. Bastard. So I _must_ leave the analysis to yous guys. Jim, the Picture of Health. I quite smoking a long time ago.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Kenny Young On The St. Louis MUFON Thing From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:40:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 00:02:50 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Kenny Young On The St. Louis MUFON Thing It was my pleasure to meet and say hello to a number of friends and associate researchers in St. Louis over the weekend. There are too many to mention in this note, but it was a great enjoyment to put human faces on so many I know only through cyberspace, and I hope to see them sometime again. That being said, the following report will offer a frank critique of the substance and lecture content of Saturday, July 15, 2000 afternoon session of the MUFON symposium held in St. Louis, Missouri. The session began with Colm A. Kelleher, Ph.D. of NIDS [National Institute for Discovery Science] who charged that a comprehensive, scientific analysis of recent UFO sightings afforded the revelation that 15 to 20% of recent reports involved "craft." Despite offering that NIDS was a scientific organization of competent professionals, he did not offer how such a suggestive and leading term as "craft" used in conjunction with their database analysis could be scientifically appropriate. Referencing this UFO sighting database allegedly maintained by NIDS [which to the knowledge of this writer is not available to you, the reader, for inspection], Kelleher went on to tell of the NIDS conclusion that the purported reports collected indicates an evasiveness associated with a phenomena that appears to exhibit intelligence through characteristics of "equipment malfunction" and "game playing." The NIDS operative, while swiftly discounting the recent allegations that his organization is a "shadowy agency" [Shadowy agency prompts speculation by Doug Beazley, Edmonton Sun, Wednesday, July 12, 2000], makes interesting reference to an alleged collection of recent UFO reports that involve a low-flying "lighted" object said sighted in the 6-months since the Millstadt, Illinois police encounters. But again, this purported data is not available for fair review by you, the reader. The next speaker, John Carpenter, presented an anonymous videotape first shown on the TV show "Paranormal Borderline," in which a factory worker is recorded by one of four security cameras that seem to shut down after a bright light appears to flash. The cameras reactivate sometime later, showing the employee regurgitating on the ground. Repeatedly, Carpenter tells the mesmerized audience that the worker "disappears" or "reappears." This, however, is not the case. We do not see this alleged worker de-manifest or materialize before the camera, we simply see the cameras shut off. Further, Carpenter refers to the suspected flash of light as an "abducting beam." Calling upon MUFON photoanalyst and Gulf Breeze proponent Jeff Sainio for a "scientific analysis" of the video, Sainio asserted that the flash of light was not from a conventional source and came from a high elevation. Responding to a question from the audience, Sainio acknowledged that he did not consider the flash being caused by an arc-welder's torch [perhaps on a scaffolding, stairway or balcony]. MUFON photoanalyst Jeff Sainio also made specific reference to the flash as an "abducting light," causing the objective listener to wonder how scientific and non-ideological this analyst could truly be. The repeated use of suggested and deeply leading phrases [abducting light, abducting beam] by both Carpenter and Sainio seemed to be a subliminal attempt to induce a certain ideology upon an audience of MUFON enthusiasts, many of them all-too-eager to receive such droll. Up next was a MUFON State Director with an unconvincing attempt to link UFOs to the reported "chem-trails." As several audience members in the packed house were seen to squirm in frustration or otherwise leave the room, Gregory J. Avery, J.D. from Metairie, Louisiana forged ahead with a ridiculous presentation bedeviled by mindless photo slides and video projections. Several videotapes displayed what clearly appeared to be insects. One sequence depicted a bird followed by what Avery described as a "fast moving UFO," but appeared to this observer to be nothing more than a bug chasing a bird. Another bird, briefly caught streaking past the cameras field of view, elicited a chorus of "oohs" and "ahhhs" from the crowd of eager-to-believers. The final minutes of Avery's embarrassing lecture were spent looking for orbs that were said to emerge from the clouds. Despite continuous rewinding and fast forwarding, the presenter himself seemed unable to point out the "UFO/specks" to the disgruntled audience. After the speech, many that I spoke with expressed disbelief that such drivel had been propagated against the conference attendees under the approval of MUFON higher-ups. Misfortune placed upon him by having to follow such brain-dead buffoonery, Robert M. Wood, Ph.D. from Newport Beach, California soon took the stage and rapidly delivered his presentation of the New Majestic Documents. Wood seemed to suddenly toss out any attempt at credibility by announcing that the truthfulness of document source Timothy S. Cooper was assessed using the mystical soothe-saying practices of "Remote Viewing." Over all, the Saturday afternoon session of the MUFON 2000 symposium was a dark moment in UFOlogy. A ray of sunshine came at the tail-end of Kevin Randle's Sunday afternoon lecture [January 16], where he called MUFON on the carpet for their practice of censorship. By stating that he had "cut his own throat" in MUFON [probably for his stand on the abduction question] and announcing to a half-empty room that MUFON had twice restricted him from speaking his mind on the UFO abduction issue, Randle shined like gold as he hit a home run by complaining of the ideological and unscientific agenda imposed upon MUFON subordinates by the organizational leadership. Thanks to Kevin Randle for a glimmer of sunshine during what seems to be the dark ages of UFOdumb. KENNY YOUNG July 17, 2000 -- UFO Research http://home.fuse.net/ufo/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: MJ-12 & Joe Firmage From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:47:16 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 00:06:13 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MJ-12 & Joe Firmage Somehow, despite my best efforts to net.stalk him, the following article, dated 11-25-99, escaped my attention: "Deceptive UFO Documents: Doubt, Debate and Daunting Questions" Go to: http://www.isso.org & click on "InBox", or go right to: http://www.isso.org/inbox/ufodocs.htm Basically, it appears that Firmage is now saying that the docs are _not_ authentic in the sense that their content is necessarily true & describes "true things" (e.g. how to dispose of alien bodies, etc), but that they _are_ true in the sense that they _were_ crafted by government agencies, albeit for use in psychological warfare w/ the Communists. I apologize if this isn't news, but I figured that if I hadn't heard it chances were that many others hadn't.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:59:00 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 00:09:46 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:48:09 -0400 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 02:30:07 -0400 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >>To: updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 05:19:30 -0400 >>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>Subject: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> ><snip> >>Why haven't we heard from any of the other abduction researchers >>regarding their thoughts/feelings about this? Where is Budd or >>David or John Mack throughout all this? There is a conspicuous >>absence of major or well known _abduction researchers_ regarding >>this issue. >>Some of the names I have mentioned are among the very people >>that need to speak out and make their voices heard regarding the >>'questionable' behavior and ethics of one of their peers. ><snip> Liz wrote: >Dear John & List: >I have been wondering the same thing. By today, about a full >week or so since you first bought all this to light, it is >getting downright insulting that none of these "Big Guns" have >even so much as dropped in to say "I don't care for this >either". At this point, I feel I have only to assume that this >deafening silence is caused by guilt. What else is one to think? Innocent until proven guilty Liz. The silence does say a lot, but it doesn't condemn anyone either. It's only been two weeks. Maybe if we all continue to ask them to make a public comment here on the List and by sending them private requests we'll eventually hear from a few of them. At least I hope so. 'Total silence' at this point, can only do them more harm than good. The more 'timely' their response the better. The better for ufology and, the future of abduction research. >I do, however, want my >materials, whatever they may be, returned to me in the event >that Budd no longer controls them. There is a small file and at >least one tape. Not much, but enough for me! I've been contemplating the exact same thing myself. Not that I don't trust Budd with my personal files and info, I do. I don't trust anyone who may come into possession of them in the event of Budd's passing however. I need for Budd to supply me with written assurance that my files will be returned to me in the event of his death. If he cannot or will not provide me with such assurances, I will request that any and all materials to be returned immediately. >Budd, I trusted you implicitley. I told you things that not even >my husband had ever heard. I felt comfortable enough with you to >allow you to hypnotise me and talked, under hypnosis, about what >was for me, a shattering and life altering event. Please, >reafirm that my trust in you was rightly placed by just letting >me know that this behaviour we have been discussing is not >something that you condone or practice. I would very much >appreciate it. The same goes for David Jaclobs, John Mack, Yvonne Smith, and anyone else who has received money from Bigelow in the past. 'Funding' by Bigelow is one thing, 'selling abductee files for cash' is something else. Unless some very strict guidelines are adhered to. Beside blacking out any identifying info there should be a 'notification' requirement in place so that people will know that their personal info is about to go on the block. >I would ask that other abductees, working with any of the >researchers John named, contact them, here on the List, or >privately if you prefer, and ask them to come forward. Either to >condemn the recent actions of John Carpenter, or explain why >they won't. Yes, as a whole, these are wonderful, caring people >who have given up huge portions of thier own private lives to >help us. That fact doesn't alter the very real responsibility >that they have towards us. All these people have made money, of >whatever amount, on what we, as a group, have suffered. They >have gained our trust and affection, and in return have been >given the gift of our trust, which we do not give lightly, given >what we have suffered through. All we are saying is that now is >the time to let us all know that this trust was not misplaced. >Two lines isn't too much to ask. No Liz, a 'word' is not too much to ask. Let's see 'who' responds and what kind of response it is. Thank you for the consistent support that you have given from the very beginning Liz. I am deeply grateful for it and I won't forget it. If ever you should need anything from me, all you have to do is ask. ;) "United we stand!" Regards, John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:55:25 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 00:18:03 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Hatch >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:32:28 -0400 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >Subject: Re: MacLaine Opens Website >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 17:59:30 -0700 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >>Subject: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Cuthbertson >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> ><snip> >Brian, Jim and Stig: >>Yep! That's the one all right. I spoke too soon. I take it >>Shirley Maclaine has bought into the Billy Meier story. If so, >>she could have "credited" Meier with the photo. >Larry, et al- >This site looks like a publisher's promotional site, rather than >a site that Shirley Maclaine has a great deal of direct input >into. I don't know if you've read much of her material, but it >doesn't surprise me that she would take a completely >philosophical view to UFOlogy. It is apparent that she hasn't >performed research into the field, and equates "contactees" with >"abductees" in her limited writing on the site. >Her books have always taken a "new age" stance with regard to >lights in the sky, and as I recall she had a significant >experience in South America involving a UFO. >Certainly the information that she is providing at the site is >elementary in its nature, and geared toward promotion of her >books. >I would note that there isn't really a place to go to send her a >note or ask a question, but she would certainly like to have >material submitted for possible inclusion. >Oh well. The Internet's a big place and there's room for all. Hi Steve: Oh heck, I suppose you are right. I cannot feature Shirley Maclaine working through the intricacies of HTML programming. She might have asked her webmaster to find some nice UFO photos to look through. If her website is visited by new-age types, I doubt they worry much about the provenance of the Meier picture anyway. I still think its sort of neat to track it down like Brian did. I wouldn't have gone to the bother myself. I know next to nothing about Shirley Maclaine, other than what I have read on the web. I didn't know about any UFO sighting she had in South America, nor that she even went there at all. Let me hazard a real wild guess, a complete shot from the hip. Was Shirley Maclaine in Peru when she saw her own personal UFO? I'm not going to buy a book to find out. Best wishes - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: Westchester County Weekly - 'UFOs Revisited' - From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:06:53 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 00:20:03 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Westchester County Weekly - 'UFOs Revisited' - >Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 08:10:40 +0200 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> >Subject: Westchester County Weekly - 'UFOs Revisited' >To: updates@sympatico.ca >This well researched article was published in the >Westchester County Weekly (Massachusetts) on March 9, >but hasn't gone round the UFO circuit, yet, I believe. >Westchester Co. Weekly home page: >http://www.westchesterweekly.com/articles/ufos.html I did forward it to the list on 6/13; I also forwarded a review of the Hudson Valley UFO video that just came out. Recently, I was also able to get my hands on the 10/97 issue of "Hudson Valley" magazine whose feature article that month was on Pine Bush and the entire PB/HV UFO phenomenon. I'll post my thoughts on that once it's actually in my hands (it's in the mail right now). ...and eventually I'll have to get off my butt and start talking to some Bushmen face-to-face about this whole thing.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:17:26 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 00:31:15 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Velez >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:42:24 -0400 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >Subject: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:19:52 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Corky Kippenberger <KIPPENBERGER@cs.com> >>Subject: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 02:30:07 -0400 >>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>Subject: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>>Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 05:19:30 -0400 >>>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>>Subject: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Hi All, >>>I have tried repeatedly (at several numbers) to contact John >>>Carpenter by telephone. I keep getting 'wrong numbers.' >>John, >>I too have tried to contact Carpenter, and have had no success. >>I felt when this news first broke that he needed an opportunity >>to refute the charges or at least to explain himself. He refuses >>to answer. That is enough answer for me. No news, in this case, >>is bad news for Carpenter and for the 140 people whose files >>were sold. >>I don't think that Carpenter will be out on the lecture circuit >>or will have any success in selling books in the field again. We >>simply refuse to spend one more nickel on him and he's done... Hiya Steve, Allow me to busrt your bubble with the news that not only did John Carpenter (and a representative of NIDS) speak at the MUFON conference, but _no one_ asked any questions about the sale of the files or even brought it up in casual conversation. I am told that he was grinning and shaking hands and enjoying the kudo's and admiration of the assembled audience/crowd. It's only been a couple of weeks though. Let's wait until the news of this transaction of his with Mr. Bigelow has reached a saturation point and see if he doesn't catch a question or two at his next public appearance! I agree with you Steve. We support these guys with our hard earned cash and by showing up at these 'events.' If we stop, they have no more 'career' in ufology. No audience interest and no books purchased, will result in; no requests to appear or to speak anywhere! Simple equation. >>I think that you raise another valid point. Where are the other >>researchers and what is their posture on this event? Who's >>hiding what? Good question! ;) Regards and many thanx for your input, for Jan's, and to all the folks at Project 1947. The dialog that you have all started is just what the doctor ordered and all that I had hoped for. If we don't 'drop the ball' on this one, ufology as a whole will be much better for it when all is said and done. John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: First Man To Orbit - Straight From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:10:53 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 00:32:44 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: First Man To Orbit - Straight >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:26:03 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >Subject: Re: First Man To Orbit >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >As for the >disturbing dying cosmonaut accounts found in the URL above, such >as the May 1961 fatal flight of the first woman in space, I do have some doubts as to the authenticity of this recording. Surely under circumstances where the interior of the capsule is getting warm, presumably reentry would be quite well underway, and radio blackout, due to the ionization of atmospheric gases, would prevent any communication of the type allegedly recorded. >How can we ever know the truth about the Soviet space program? >Once this generation of eyewitnesses dies out then even the >memory of the Soviet Union's - and the world's - secret space >heros will be lost forever, except to God. This should not be >allowed to happen. Amen to that. As more information is released in Russia regarding Cold War activities and spying, we can only hope that the Russians will eventually see the value in releasing the secret histories of their space program. Brian
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:34:31 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 00:35:13 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale - Velez >Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 14:39:19 +0100 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@CURRANTBUN.COM> >Subject: Re: John Carpenter's Sale >To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM >Hi, >The selling of personal medical or identifying information on a >witness without their permission can never be considered >appropriate IMO. >All I will say on this matter is that I posted to Updates >suggestions when the debate first broke about how in the UK we >have used a voluntary Code of Practice to try to stop such >things. >This was defined by BUFORA in conjunction with several other >groups during a unique cooperative venture in l982 and it was >updated by UFOIN in l999 (and published on our web site) >Coupled with the Data Protection Act restricting personal data >from public release we have successfully attempted to circumvent >such things. When any default is charged the person responsible >has to justify it or suffer consequences of breach of the code. >This self policing code sets the ground rules that investigators >cannot overstep without expecting heavy censure and dismissal >from their parent group. Indeed it has proven of practical >advantage in ensuring that UFOlogists take seriously their >responsibility towards personal information, the witnesses under >their care and their colleagues. >I suggested that the code could be adapted more widely - eg for >US use - and that a web site be created that acted to name all >those groups and individuals signed up to a version of it around >the world and also to shame all those who declined or defaulted. Hi Jenny, If you will put me in touch with some of the folks who set up the website, I will create and post an American version of it on the Internet. I don't have the $ for dot com addresses and the like, but I can post it onto the web via my personal account. If anyone wants to donate the '.com address' money I will donate the bandwidth, website design and maintenance services. Let's just _do_ it. If this gets lost or forgotten in endless debate it'll never happen. Whether it will have "teeth" or not doesn't even matter. We need something like this and we need it now. Let me know Jenny. I'm willing to do whatever needs doing to make it a reality. I will need help though. >In this way witnesses can 'window shop' for ethical groups and >researchers to work with and the past actions of any UFOlogists >who show disdain for this agreed code of conduct and have been >expelled or censured for doing so will get exposed for all to >see. <snip> >The code in the UK is not a perfect solution but its a huge step >in the right direction and sends a visible signal that - at >least for those groups and UFOlogists signed up to it (many >hundreds in the UK) UFOlogy does care. And there is at least a >mechanism whereby if someone does wrong they can be measured and >acted against. Sounds good to me, let's give it a go! >The sad truth is though that - in the main - UFOlogy doesnt care. Jenny, we _are_ "ufology!" I care, you care, so do a great many others apparently. Let's start with that kernel and see how much 'mass' we can acquire by gravity. There is a time for all things. Maybe now is the time for this. :) Let me know about the website. To the 'next level!' Onward and upward. Regards, John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Filer's Files #28 -- 2000 From: Majorstar@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:33:38 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:35:51 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Filer's Files #28 -- 2000 Filer's Files #28 -- 2000, MUFON Skywatch Investigations George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern July 17, 2000, Majorstar@aol.com, Sponsored by Electronic Arts Web Site at: http://www.filersfiles.com.-Chuck Warren Webmaster. MUFON INTERNATIONAL UFO SYMPOSIUM JULY 14-16, 2000 I enjoyed the MUFON Conference and feel MUFON is moving forward in a positive manner with the appointment of John Schuessler as the new director. John has participated in the manned space program since 1962, and has many new and exciting ideas. I wish to personally thank Walt Andrus for starting MUFON in 1969, and keeping it viable since then. We all owe him a great deal for his years of hard work. MUFON is moving to Denver, Colorado and an improved MUFON web site will be going on line soon. Like most conferences I learned a great deal by talking to the various field investigators, and state directors there. It was nice to put faces on those who I often communicate with on the Internet. Ron Regher and Elaine Douglas had new and exciting data on the Roswell crash. Dr. Roger Lier the noted implant surgeon and I talked to late in the evening about new and exciting developments concerning implants and his contacts with Japanese industry. Major laboratories are examining a recovered implant that has antennas that move when a magnetic force is near. Dr. Leir, stated, "These new discoveries may give us some real evidence that we've all been trying to obtain." He had talked to a Japanese Physicist who was working with plasmas that can be produced and given instructions which allows them to proceed in an intelligent manner. I know our government is working on similar technology. Analogous plasmas have been seen creating crop circles. Jerry Rowles had some great stories about his Air Force exploits. I saw unbelievable photographs of Mars showing geysers, like Old Faithful at Yellowstone National Park. Photographs of what might be an ancient city and even what appeared to be a frozen lake. Despite all the controversy regarding the Lt. Col. Jessie Marcel tapes recorded by Dr. Linda G. Corley, she told me that, " Jessie definitely believed that he had seen the wreckage of an alien craft at Roswell." Kenny Young had fascinating information about the Cape Girardeau UFO crash of 1941. Tom Sheets is already planning for a great conference in Atlanta with important visitors in 2002, as is Robert Wood for the Irvine Conference next year. I talked with abductees with heart wrenching stories. There were numerous state investigators with startling cases that we'll bring to you at a later date. The real stories were told in the hallways and private rooms of the conference. The collective knowledge of some 300 attendees needs to be gathered together. Almost everyone had an untold great stories. The MUFON Proceedings 2000 can be purchased from MUFON HQ@aol.com. Bruce Widaman and the Missouri MUFON should be congratulated for putting on a great conference. WEEKEND SOLAR STORM A powerful interplanetary shock wave struck our planet's magnetosphere on Saturday and triggered a severe G5 category geomagnetic storm. During the event, which began around 1500 UT (11:00 am EDT) on July 15th, the solar wind velocity soared to nearly 1000 km/s. Bright Northern Lights were spotted as far south as 40 degrees latitude in Asia, Europe and eastern North America. U.S. sightings included reports from Virginia, Missouri, Washington, Illinois and Michigan. Southern hemisphere observers in New Zealand and Australia also reported instances of bright Southern Lights. Thanks to Space Weather News NEW JERSEY SAUCER WEST WINDSOR -- Driving home on July 2, 2000, a couple with their son and cousin saw an oval football shaped object at 9:45 PM. It was luminescent all the way through with no shadows. It moved at a steady pace from what looked like the south-southeast to the north-northwest. It had flashing red, blue, and white lights on top and bottom. It was last observed going behind the trees. A second witness saw a very bright object in the sky at 10:10 PM only twenty-five minutes later in the same general area. The witness stated, "At first I thought it might be part of a control tower, but then it started moving, and I saw the saucer shape of the object." There was a strip of flashing lights around the bottom of the spacecraft. It was moving from right to left in the sky, and was larger and brighter than an airplane in another part of the sky. It was also traveling much faster than the airplane. When I picked up my son I told him what I saw, and he started making fun of me because he thought I was crazy. Once I pointed it out to him in the sky, still traveling very rapidly, he believed me. The object was moving away from us, so we drove in the direction it was going. After a few minutes, it was on the horizon, and finally disappeared from sight. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com. PENNSYLVANIA FOUR TRIANGLES SIGHTED Frank Gualberti writes, "This is getting scary I sat out again tonight just to see if these things are still active, they are and I saw something pass directly over me that has me really scared to death. With the moon becoming fuller the sky is not as dark as it was during the past week. Tonight, July 11, 2000, not more than an hour ago, I saw this large shadow moving in the sky, so I grabbed my binoculars. It was not just one, but four triangles moving in a west-east direction. Frank states, "I could see the shadow of triangles because they were darker than the sky above and had a faint light in the back of them." He said, "They didn't make a sound and that is what scared me sitting out in the dark and seeing these things going over me, WOW." This past week has been the most sky action I have ever witnessed. They traveled in a pattern like this: <> <> <> <> ^ * * Thanks to Frank Gualberti Mar99cee@webtv.net and Barry Taylor stingray@nor.com.au Australia. Editors Note: We have sent an investigator to obtain further detail on the case. FLORIDA FLYING TRIANGLE GULF BREEZE -- MUFON Headquarters received a report from Missy stating, "I am reporting a UFO sighting that happened tonight, July 7, 2000, at 10:00 central time." I spotted it first, but my husband and I both saw the UFO while driving back from Pensacola, on our way to Ft. Walton Beach. It was seen in Gulf Breeze area over a Federally protected forest area near the new apartment community being built called "The Reserve". It had a large triangular shape with both very large and small lights outlining the craft. The smaller lights were in the middle. When we first saw it flying low, we could have been mistaken it for an airplane except the lights were not blinking and never did. When it became a triangle my husband then agreed it could not be an airplane or helicopter. We see every kind of aircraft flying all over our area daily because of Eglin AFB and Hurlburt Field. The flying triangle definitely hovered or stayed still for about three or four seconds before moving down behind trees out of sight. It was pretty exciting! It was the second sighting of a UFO for both of us. I saw my first in Moss Point, MS when I was five and my husband saw his first over 20 years ago outside Boston, MA. Thanks to: MISSYZART and MUFON HQ. GEORGIA DISC SIGHTING INVESTIGATION MARIETTA -- Olivia Newton and Michael D. Hitt investigated the May 1, 2000, UFO sighting by the wife of a prominent minister who is very respected in the community. Peter Davenport, Director of the National Reporting Center had alerted MUFON State Director Walter (Tom) Sheets about the case. The witness lives in a fine home on a lake where the sighting took place. The witness stated, "Above our bed is a skylight that we enjoy on a clear night as we observe the stars and the moon of God's beautiful handiwork. The sighting occurred between 3 and 5:00 AM when she was awakened and saw through the skylight over her bed a stationary disc shaped object. She described the craft as more oval then round hovering in the southwest sky. There were three triangular shaped lights on the upper portion of the object, which gave off brilliant white lights. She did not awaken her husband who was beside her in their bed, because she did not want to disrupt his rest as he had a very busy schedule the following day. The stationary disc shaped craft began to move toward the witness as soon as she observed it. The upper portion moved slowly in a clockwise motion, and made an audible sound, soft, faint, and swishing sound. Within a few seconds the craft was covering the entire skylight that measures 19 by 62 inches. The witness said, "When the object was near the skylight, the clockwise motion of the external part of the object stopped and the object stood still, but continued to make a soft swishing sound." She said, "As it moved away there was no visible motion of any part of the object but the soft sound continued. As the object moved across the space of the skylight, I observed the bottom of the object. There were a series of lights embedded in the bottom of the object. These lights were white and red. The finish on the side of the object was a gray metallic finish. The object was so close and the light was so bright that I could see the detail of the surface. The night was as bright as day as the object stood still over the house. The object stopped motion briefly and then proceeded moving past the skylight. As it moved it made a swishing sound and the darkness reappeared. I just lay there in the dark staring in the night unable to move a muscle. As soon as my husband awoke at 6:99 AM, I told him about what I had seen." Measurements, photos and drawings were made indicating the disc came within forty feet of the witness. The craft was 70 feet from the ground when it hovered over the impressive home. The skies were clear with little or no wind. Star charts indicated no large astronomical reasons for the sighting. The investigators felt this was a high quality witness and in their opinion what she observed was not a natural phenomena. The home is located six miles from Dobbins Air Force Base. There are no other know witnesses and the FAA, local police and airports were not aware of the disc. The case is evaluated as a significant unknown. Thanks to Peter Davenport of NUFORC, and Muffin's Tom Sheets, Olivia Newton and Michael D. Hitt. Editor's Note: I want to thank all those involved for their excellent work. I talked with Tom Sheets and Michael Hitt at the MUFON Conference and was impressed by the their professionalism and hard work. Both of these use their investigative skills learned as policemen. Michael recently published Georgia 's Aerial Phenomenon 1947-1987 that provides an excellent compilation of cases during that period. OHIO DARK CYLINDER WITH SHADOWY WING WINTERSVILLE -- The witness stated, "My friend and I were sitting on our deck looking up at the stars on June 24, 2000. I was tilting my head back at 10:15 PM looking at the cloudy sky when I saw a dark cylinder shaped object sweep across the sky passing straight above me. It came from the west angling off to the northwest. It was not brightly illuminated and had a pale orange color in spots. If I had not been looking at a star, I may not have noticed it. It was more shadow than lit up but, I could see enough too see that it was a cylinder. It passed through a thin transparent layer of broken up clouds. My guess is that the clouds helped illuminate it for me to see. It was so large in the sky, I jumped up and said, "My god" and tried to point it out to my friend, but he was unable to see the fast moving object. Believe me, I do not see how anyone could miss it! But I guess it was not meant to be noticed, even though it was so large. It seemed to cast a feathery blur when it angled off towards the north. It almost looked like a dark wing, with the cylinder in the middle. If you hold your arm out straight up to the sky, and made a space of about two and a half inches between your index finger and your thumb, that's how big it would have appeared in the sky. It made no noise, no sound at all. It was very exciting!! Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC WISCONSIN SIGHTING OF A FLYING CIRCLE OF LIGHTS RADIGAN DAM - Last week, I incorrectly coupled this Wisconsin sighting with one in Michigan. Eddie and a small group of friends went camping and saw a strange craft in the Dairyland area of Wisconsin. Eddie reports, "South of Superior two of my friends went for a walk a little after dark on July 3, 2000, only to come back and get me at about 11:00 PM." They were very excited and brought me a very short distance from our camp site and asked me what I saw? About half mile away, there were two levels of lights, one at the lower portion of the distant tree line and another closer to the top of the trees. It didn't look like fog, as we could plainly make out the trees in the lighted areas. We walked back to our camp and they jumped into their truck to see what was causing the lights. I stayed at the site with two other friends. We had been using my telescope to check out some very bright stars. I noticed a very distant light in the sky, moving very quickly. I called to my friends to check this out, as there were no blinking lights like an airplane would have. We watched this circle of bright lights move from east to west very fast. It suddenly stopped for just a split second and sped away in a minute. I didn't have enough time to track the object with my Meade DS 114 mm telescope that we had been using to watch stars. Thanks to Jim Aho W-Files http://files.ufo2u.com and Eddie NORTH DAKOTA UFO BUZZES B-52 AND MISSILES 1968 CASE: MINOT AIR FORCE BASE -- Ken Seven writes, "Regarding last weeks Filer's Files #27, I can verify verbally, and have the papers to prove that I was stationed at a radar installation about 22 miles south of Minot during 1966 to 1968 with the 786th Minot Radar Station." I was involved in the incident alluded to your Files last week and in the book "Above Top Secret" by Timothy Good, that states on page 300, "The much respected researcher Raymond Fowler, who once served with the USAF Security Service, had revealed details of a NORAD-related incident that occurred on 5 March 1967. NORAD radar tracked an uncorrelated target descending over the Minuteman missile site at Minot AFB (91st Strategic Missile Wing), North Dakota. Strike teams were notified immediately and sighted a metallic disk-shaped UFO with bright flashing lights moving slowly over the site. Three armed trucks chased the intruder until it stopped and hovered at 5000 feet. The teams had orders to capture the UFO undamaged if it landed, but it then began circling over a launch control facility. F-106 jets were about to be scrambled when the UFO climbed vertically and disappeared at high speed. Fowler has received confirmation from undisclosed sources that there have been other instances when UFOs have hovered directly over nuclear missile sites." Anyway, your mentioning this incident makes me think it was the same one that I was involved in. My "experience" was from an entirely different perspective than from the air but only adds validity and depth to your case. I was involved in an indirect-direct sort of way with the missile incident involving a UFO. My friend, who was on the shift manning the radar scopes, during this incident, even though we were told later that the incident was classified, wrote a letter (brave of him, or, naive) to the then military's spokesperson Dr. Hynek. He actually tried to correct Hynek, who at that time was saying publicly, "If there were solid aerial UFOs that our military radar systems would be tracking them." In other words, officially and publicly, our radar are not giving evidence to validate the public's claims, which my friend, and all of us knew quite the contrary. He wrote Hynek a letter saying the evidence is there, they are solid, they are maneuvering, and they were at that time showing a lot of interest in the missile sites in North Dakota. Not only that, there were two radar site fixes on that UFO with both the 786th's and Minot AFB; (see below), This pretty much ruled out that our radar site was faulty; plus, you had the Non-commissioned officers (NCOs) ground observation of it also. I was in a position to verify the tampering with missile sites by the UFOs. There were a group of about ten NCOs, that were a maintenance crew at a missile site, who phoned our radar site reporting they had a ground visual of a UFO (or UFOs?) doing very odd maneuvering near their missile site. The UFOs would drop down from out of sight to about a mile in elevation and stop at that point; then float like a leaf to about 500 feet? They would reverse the floating leaf back to the mile elevation, and then repeat this maneuver. I have forgotten how many times, because it may have been several UFOs at one time. Only one dropped down as if to land. Meanwhile our radar got a fix on it such that it indicated a very real unknown/s. These were solid maneuvering object/s at the site. Our protocol required us then to phone the radar systems at Minot AFB for them to also get a fix on the unknown. They also got a fix on their radar, which meant, for a certainty, that it was a very real unknown. Protocol required that jets be scrambled to intercept and to identify the unknown. In this case, they sent two jets to intercept/identify the UFO, which meant, it wasn't ours. Because of my job function, I unfortunately had to leave my access to this activity at the critical point in which, one of the NCOs said, "Several of the crew have taken one of the vehicles to get a closer look because a UFO has descended behind a nearby hill because it looks like it is going to land"! I could not find out later what the conclusion of that incident was. I did hear later from an officer who came to our radar site, "That the jets were unable to intercept (and that even though we had two radar fixes and the ground visuals, the jets could not lock onto or see the UFO/s. The radars showed that the UFOs and the jets converged or should have been seen visually? The UFOs would climb vertically and shoot upward from the mile high level to out of sight at more than either 3,000 or 5,000 mph, which my friend in the radar room corroborated. I can confirm that the military were well aware of the UFO activity and that in this Minot instance, it was associated with a missile site, and the military at normal operational levels were dealing with such activity as standard operating procedure. "They were told to track but keep it quiet." Yet, publicly, Hynek was saying, there was no solid radar evidence. I vaguely recall that my friend was visited either by Hynek, or a representative of his. It was, as if, Hynek was not in the loop about the military's real stance; that he had to come and visit the radar site to get a confirmation rather than the military offering the evidence to his Blue Book investigative team. If they did, it was probably filtered; it was probably about this time that Hynek's thinking began to change, if I recall. Well that's my been my "experiences" while in the USAF ADC. Thanks to Ken Seven. OFFUTT AIR FORCE BASE - John Hickman writes, "I read your article about the B-52 at Minot with much interest- and I have a slightly similar story that may interest you. I was stationed at Offutt Air FB (55SRW) near Omaha from 1981 to 1984. Around 1982 or '83, a story was making the rounds about either one or several UFOs being seen over several missile launch sites in Montana. (I believe they would have been under the control of Malstrom AFB.) The interesting thing about the sightings was that shortly after the occurrences, several of the missile guidance computers located in the missile warheads had their data banks wiped clean- so they couldn't be launched- launch and preprogrammed course data was just gone. Since we were co-located with Strategic Air Command (SAC) Headquarters, I am reasonably sure that this was a real occurrence that leaked out. At any rate, I have always wondered what they were trying to tell us, it is obvious we were pretty much helpless against their technology, or maybe just a warning that we'd better play with each other nice or they'd take our toys away. Thanks to John Hickman wtcthsky@hotmail.com IDAHO RICE SHAPED UFO MERIDIAN - On July 3, 2000, a white to silver, shaped like a seed of rice, traveling a direct path from almost due west to due east. At 5:00 PM, I observed the above-described object traveling at what appeared to be a very high altitude. I detected no sound as it traveled across an approx. 105-degree arc in a straight line. From Straight up, it was approx. 10 degrees to the south. I observed the object through the arc over a period of approx. 10 to 15 seconds until it went out of sight. From my location I first saw the object at approx. 45 degrees to the west and lost sight of it at approx. 60 degrees to the east. Background - I am a 29 yr. retired police officer presently operating a private investigative agency. Thanks to NUFORC. CALIFORNIA DESERT CHASE AT 90 MPH BAKER -- On July 1, 2000, Peter Davenport reports that a witness was traveling just north of Baker when they spotted a huge cigar shaped craft two stories that was silver or aluminum in color. It had tall rectangular lights across the front of it. It was bigger than any airplane and it's maneuverability was unbelievable. It was totally silent. The craft chased us three times. The last time it chased us nine miles and was only one to two feet above our car as it chased us at speeds of up to ninety miles per hour. There was quite a bit of air pressure of some kind exerted on our vehicle from the craft. It was so strong we could not close the windows all the way. They were being pushed in. We were driving in the open desert where visibility was great and the sky was clear. This cigar shaped craft flew down and actually blocked the road. We were forced to stop. Then it approached us closer. We shut our lights off and it advanced toward us quickly. We then turned around and fled. The first time it chased us it did so for approximately a half mile at 100 to 200 feet behind us. The second time it got even closer. The third time it came after us and actually stayed right above us. Part of the craft was actually almost touching our vehicle. When we arrived at our destination, we heard that there was a report of a UFO near the town where we observed this UFO. (NUFORC Note: Peter Davenport stated, "We spoke with the witness who submitted this report, and we found him to be quite sincere in his description of what allegedly occurred." The second witness provides his version of the story. We were traveling north on Highway 127 outside of Baker at 3:30 AM that reports, "Brian and I noticed a light in the sky then seem to disappear within few minutes. Very soon we noticed dim lights on the road ahead so we pulled over on to investigate and turned the car lights off to see better. Suddenly there were bright lights from the object coming toward us. We turned the car around and started back south on the highway. It followed us for a mile or so and disappeared. We weren't happy with that so we turned around and headed north again. We got maybe a mile when the object appeared over a sand dune mountain and started coming toward us with its lights on. We made a 'U' turn and drove south again. We stopped the car so the passenger could take over the driving. He asked, "Where is it?" When I looked out the driver's window, the object was flying next to us. It chased us for about a mile and disappeared. We again turned around and headed north again. To our surprise it was waiting again, so we immediately turned back towards Baker driving at speeds of over 90 mph. Brian then asked, "Where is it?" When I turned to look, it was right on top of us. " I could see what appeared to be airline engines in the back window. When I looked out my passenger window, I could clearly tell this was no plane for the bottom of this aircraft was directly above us. It made no noise. I yelled to get us out of here and proceeded to raise the car windows. The windows would not shut for they were bowed in. It was very bright inside the car, and at first I thought the panel lights were on so I reached down to turn them off. This is when we both noticed the lime green glow inside the car. I looked straight ahead and noticed a car coming toward us and yelled for Brain to watch out, when suddenly our ears popped and the object was gone. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC for these reports. Editor's Note: The witness's claim to have observed similar craft with a comparable modus of operation. The UFOs may have been attempting to abduct the occupants or to keep them from traveling up the road. This is a very unusual case that requires detailed investigation. CALIFORNIA BRIGHT LIGHT HOPLAND -- On July 7, 2000, John Mini an acupuncturist was driving with his girl friend at dusk near the Indian Reservation. They saw an extremely bright light shining a light on a home below. They had never seen a light so bright. At first they thought it might be a helicopter shinning a million plus power light. They realized there was no sound and the light was much too large. Suddenly the light seemed to swirl and became pinkish and then completely vanished. It left an ionized trail that moved through the air. The ionization trail lasted for thirty minutes. The driving ahead of them also stopped to see the show. The sky was clear blue and it was a beautiful day. 415 482-9188. 711D Street Apt. 3115, San Rafael, CA 94901 Thanks to John Mini JM@dayofdestiny.com. All real estate agents are not the same? Some real estate agents or sales representatives are part timers and inexperienced. Others are experts with an excellent experience and capabilities. When you are selling or buying your home, you need to make sure you have the best real estate agent working for you before you make any important financial decisions on one your biggest investments! Remember, the majority of people do not know the right questions to ask, and what pit falls can cause major problems. Picking the right real estate agent can be a wonderful experience, and picking the wrong one can be a big mistake that can waste your time and cost you thousands! Find out, "What you need to understand before hiring any real estate agent!" These are the questions that many agents do not want you to ask. Learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent for your needs. To get a free copy of this report, just call (609) 654-0020 or e-mail us at Majorstar@aol.com. We can also help you with your own or corporate Worldwide Relocation to Australia, Benelux, Canada, Cayman Is. England, France, Guam, Hong Kong, Israel, Japan, Mexico, New Zealand, Northern Ireland, Papua New Guinea, Philippines, Puerto Rico, and US. US GOVERNMENT UFO PROOF RELEASED: Audio tapes of a genuine UFO Alert at Edwards Air Force base and studied by the Foreign Technology Division at Wright Patterson Air Force Base, are now available for distribution to the public. Sam Sherman's audio documentary tape called EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE ENCOUNTER on the night of October 7, 1965, uses the actual voice recordings provided by the Air Force. During this event 12 high tech luminous UFOs invade secure air space and came down low over the runways at Edwards AFB. Tower operator Sgt. Chuck Sorrels spotted them and notified the Air Defense Command. Sgt. Sorrels is heard on the original tapes and in a new segment where he verifies the event as it is heard on the archival recordings. The UFOs are described and a decision is made to launch F-106 fighter interceptors. You are there for an important part of UFO history. Hear it for yourself, it's the best UFO tape ever made. Tape cost is $14.95 each plus $2.00 for shipping -- total $16.95 -- (for overseas orders-out of US - add $6.00 shipping cost -- total -- $20.95) you can send either a personal check or money order to: Independent International Pictures Corp, Box 565, Dept. GF, Old Bridge, New Jersey 08857. PHOTOGRAPH BOOKLET of some of the best UFO shots available and data on their propulsion systems by US Navy Commander Graham Bethune.. $10.00. Send check or money order to G. Filer 222 Jackson Road, Medford, New Jersey 08055 MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative reports subscribe by contacting MUFONHQ@Aol.com. Mention I recommended you for membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2000 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the Files on their Web Sites provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue that the item appeared. Send your letters to Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to keep your name, address, or story confidential.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:44:18 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:46:48 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc - Mortellaro >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:34:30 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc >To: updates@sympatico.ca >*Errol, This is for the Carpenter/Bigelow thread. >_____ >From: Bill Weber <wweber1@sc.rr.com> >To: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: You can send this if you'd like >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:00:29 -0400 >Hi, All, >About five years ago I watched a Canadian documentary on the >growing industry of selling information and it violated my >notion of personal privacy. Driven by health insurance companies >and small businesses wishing to provide benefits for employees, >what would otherwise remain confidential medical records were >finding their way into the private sector in the form of "claim" >information, freely exchanged by insurance companies, and >collected and sold by others for a nominal subscription fee. In >short, type in a job applicant's social security number and get >back an up to date and complete file on his or her >medical/psychological profile - based on past insurance claims, >collected public access records, hearsay, and rumor, all of >which supply answers to questions that would be unconstitutional >if asked during an interview process. >That was five years ago, and God only knows what they can and do >collect (and misuse) on each of us now. It's clear to me that my >perception of privacy is hopelessly old fashioned - or at least >lags far behind the speed of the internet. What Carpenter did >leaves me more than a little shell-shocked and shocked in the >same way as did the documentary. Dear Billy Budd, Listers and EBK; Dunno why we are all shocked. No, really! Why? When everything we do these days is fodder for someone's mud-der. Thimk about it, willya Willyum? Whatever you do, did or maybe even plan to do is available on the Internet. I recently needed some information on someone I was going to take to the DA. So I called my attorney, Guglielmo Pasta Fasool (whose member is made wit the local famiglia). Googy, as we call him, told me that all I hadda do was go to a particular site and plop down me credit card. So I did. The information cost less than if I aksed the lawyer to handle it. You wanna know what? It cost me about eighty bucks to get the info. And another eighty bucks to get my own personal info. Now I _am_ shocked. What people can know about me and you is unbelievable. And another thingy, why are you and others shocked when even those whom you trusted, threaten us with using what they know against us? Huh? And sometimes do just that! Don't be shocked, just get a good lawyer. >What Carpenter did may be legal, part of the "business" of >research, and may even be small potatoes compared to the >violations of privacy that happen to each of us everyday - >whether we know it or not, but I find it none the less offensive >on a very personal level. Because he "does what he does" he >invites a powerless group of people to tell him the most >personal aspects of their lives - and then he takes that >information and sells them out. It reminds me of the line in Yah, and don't go mistaking my words. I am not defending Carpenter or anyone else in this rat's nest. Wrong is wrong. All I am confused about is why everyone is shocked. I mean, if it were Budd or David I would be shocked. But it ain't. And another thing. Why do you call us "powerless!?" Huh? I and my brothers and sisters are far from being powerless. We have the power of truth behind us. If yous were a sane abductee you would understand this concept better. But alas, you ain't - uh, an abductee I mean. Sane, probally. Because I can hear your emotion. But abductees have truth, their own truth, behind them. Crazy people, like me brudda in law, don't even know the definition of the word. But abductees with their sanity in tact do. And we can sift thru the Bovine Excrement in order to find that undigested kernel of corn. See what I mean? You damned straight you do... >It is my understanding that some people have actually been >harmed by this action. Others don't even know about it. (I >suppose _that's_ their fault too.)That's a damn shame. I suggest >to abduction researchers who find this personally unethical >practice a necessary fact of life, to simply consider extortion >when they need some cash. Its more to the point, and far more >profitable. Why wait for information to filter down to, say, >employers, family members, or the general public? Why not just >threaten to give it to potentially interested parties right up >front? (Please forgive the hyperbole, but, ironically, if >Carpenter wasn't a "professional" and this happened on a >personal level, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.) One would really have to be nuts to defend such alleged actions on anyone's part. I ain't nuts. And you are so correct. Extortion is a real possibility. But think about this one. How are any of the abductees who wish anonymity to go about retrieving their files without revealing their identity? And think aboot this, what's to stop some booger from the nasal area from telling all he or she knows about any of us? Huh? What? And don't think it can't happen. Allegedly, someone did that for money. Someone _might_ actually do it for revenge. If I'm lyin, I'm dyin. To investigate this legally would automatically place the abductee in the spotlight. A place I know they would rather not be. And many do not have the money with which to pursue legal recourse. Unless of course, some generous attorney would be willing to take the case pro bono. Mine won't. Already aksed. And he is the one who was at one time willing to take a foundation to tax exempt status - gratis. A UFO foundation. He got burned on that one as a result of me. Shmuck that I am. What's the point? Why the hell do you people keep aksing that question anyway? The point is, that _NOW_ is the time for at least _some_ of the club of abductees to "Go Public!" Now! Maybe it's about time, eh? I received a very long distance call this AM from a fellow abductee. This person got wind of the noise about this thread and asked me what I knew. I told this person, who was in tears... I mean unable to control the sobbing, that there was no reason to believe that _his/her_ hero would do such a thing and not to worry. Didn't help. This poor soul, no longer associated with any support group, decided that he/she had had enough abuse in support, so went to a wonderful man for help. One we all know well. One we have not heard from. I explained that strictly from a legal point of view, it would be asinine for this researcher to come out and make a statement on this issue just yet. It's what my lawyer told me and I both trust and believe him. >Other researchers may think that the "greater good" is achieved >in an exchange of this type. I don't. I urge NIDS to give the >information back to those folks who unknowingly participated in >their research. Sorry Bill, I do not mean to bring a non abductee into this argument, but no one as yet knows exactly what NIDS had in mind. And a word to the wise and the unwise. Think on this one for about a second or two. Then consider backing out, as the thought just happens to scare the crappola outa me. Suppose that for just one time, you could stand inside Biggy's shoes. And for just that one moment, you could be him ... then think on all the money you have. All the legal power at your disposal. All the retainers you pay out to your favorite Consigliari would buy you a new home. And some of the researchers on frequency, even two new homes. And that's just the month's retainer. So there you are, standing inside them rich, Italian leather shoes. Think about how much of a shit you give about who is saying what about you. Right or wrong. And especially wrong, you are dead meat in his eyes. Now get the hell outa his shoes, he hates it when someone stinks up his leather. Jim Mortellaro, realist.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: Need Support! - Mulvey From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:48:30 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:06:15 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Need Support! - Mulvey Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:13:34 -0400 From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Need Support! To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >This isn't just an issue for these 140 people, although they >are, of course , the most important aspect of this whole >episode. I beleive, and now it seems, many others beleive, that >it is an issue that involves everyone in any way connected to >this field! Who wants to be associated with a field whose researchers have the potential or in fact do hold the most vulnerable of that population in disregard? The grapevine alone tells me the isolated incidents that we've heard of ethical jabbing or worse [including "Carpentergate"] could easily be a drop in the bucket. Regardless, and in spite of the dark cloud that currently hovers over this field, there exists an opportunity. Those of us who are abductees and abductee advocates have just been given the screaming high sign to actively promote higher expectations in the researcher/abductee relationship. Abductees seeking help or participating in a study need to enter into that arrangement with the same critical eye as they would with a used car salesman. Vulnerable doesn't equate to stupid and researcher obviously doesn't mean saint. We need to educate ourselves, others who might be tempted to trust when it isn't earned, and researchers. Nobody in Ufology wants to see abductee research stop or become so damaged that few will participate. This field is under enough scrutiny from the outside world who thinks we're _all nuts_, so kicking each other around [although amusing good fun at times] without a solution, this time, won't cut it. Fear, anger, vulnerability and a little sleep deprivation makes for a pretty tough crowd.<g> I'm going to remain positive that this struggle will push abductees and the rest of this field through to some progress. >You are exactley the kind of person we need, many times over to >keep this issue in the forefront until it's resolved. You go >girl! LOL Thanks Liz. The abductee/researcher relationship discussion isn't new to me. I appreciate the opportunity to share my soapbox. I only wish it was under different circumstances. Ann
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: Another MJ12 Source - Huff From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 20:39:12 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:08:01 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Another MJ12 Source - Huff >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:14:30 -0400 >From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net> >Subject: Re: Another MJ12 Source >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Have you ever spoke with someone with claims to have direct >knowledge of or have worked for MJ12? I have spoken with 10 such >persons - from retired AF COLs in line to be vice AF commander >to NRO contractors to TRW employees working in clandestine intel >gathering to FBI/Treasury agents to former OMB auditors. They >all say it exists and tell the same 'story'. >Example #1: >Individual worked as an auditor for OMB in the '80s. He audited >classified programs in the Old Executive Building in DC. There >he saw and read about a variety of programs that dealt with >aliens. Not only did he see a reference to MJ12 but in 1987 went >to Ft Meade to meet with them. >Example #2: >Retired AF COL who worked nuclear and stealth programs. As >earlier posted, read about Roswell at Sandia. Elsewhere, saw >written references to MJ12 and its MAJESTIC codeword. If all this is true -- and the sources telling the truth -- then the MJ-12 secret is widely disseminated, and shouldn't be impossible for a well-connected mainstream reporter to at least get hints about. So here are two questions for Bob Huff. Would any of your sources talk, even off the record, to a mainstream reporter? And would you give a mainstream reporter some guidelines about what kind of questions to ask, and where to ask them? I'm not thinking of myself, I want to make clear -- the right reporter for this might be someone who reports on national security affairs for a newspaper like the NY Times or the Washington Post. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale - Hales From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:59:53 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:11:28 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale - Hales >Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 14:39:19 +0100 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@CURRANTBUN.COM> >Subject: Re: John Carpenter's Sale >To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM >Hi, >The selling of personal medical or identifying information on a >witness without their permission can never be considered >appropriate IMO. >snip> >The code in the UK is not a perfect solution but its a huge step >in the right direction and sends a visible signal that - at >least for those groups and UFOlogists signed up to it (many >hundreds in the UK) UFOlogy does care. And there is at least a >mechanism whereby if someone does wrong they can be measured and >acted against. >The sad truth is though that - in the main - UFOlogy doesn't care. >Jenny Randles Hi, I wholly endorse your view Jenny, but we also have the sad fact of commercialism ,which has hijacked ufology leading to the � & $ being put before the thoughts of some witnesses. For example: What would a UFO book be without witness testimony, to published UFO data? What would UFO video data be without witness consent? And how convincing will UFO lectures be concerning UFO contactee and Abduction cases without putting forward some detail of the witness? There are those who are practising confidentiality, but this must be a blanket-cover for anyone attempting to proceed with such actions. Perhaps this code is desperately needed in ufology, so that people who aspire to jump on a certain bandwagon and try to make a living through ufology would get short shrift! Bring in the code... Regards, Roy.. Going off to finish his book on Cats!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: John Carpenter's File Sale - Kaeser From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 21:12:39 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:13:21 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: John Carpenter's File Sale - Kaeser FWIW- Anyone who believes that their privacy has been violated can seek an investigation by the Missouri: State Committee for Social Workers 3605 Missouri Boulevard P. O. BOX 1335 Jefferson City, MO 65102-1335 lcsw@mail.state.mo.us (573)751-0885 Telephone (573)526-7670 Fax <http://www.ecodev.state.mo.us/pr/social>http://www.ecodev.state.mo.us/pr/social / This is not limited to the alleged victims, but concerned citizens may also register a complaint if there are concerns regarding the actions of a Social Worker. The Web site can provide some understanding of the Rules and Regulations under which Social Workers must operate, and a Complaint Form can be requested via email, snail-mail (and I presume FAX). Those who don't feel confortable filing a formal complaint could also simple express their concerns in an email message to the address above. I personally would like to hear from MUFON and John Carpenter about this matter before involving bureaucratic processes, but I also think that it's important that those who believe they've been wronged have an avenue for (at least partial) redress. Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: First Man To Orbit - YoungB From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 21:12:34 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:16:55 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: First Man To Orbit - YoungB >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:26:03 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:36:20 -0400 >Subject: UpDate: Re: First Man To Orbit - Balaskas >>Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 00:21:58 -0500 >>From: Bruce Wright <magnus@io.com> >>Subject: Re: First Man To Orbit >>>Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 22:51:21 +0100 >>>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >>>Subject: Re: First Man To Orbit <snip> >In 'Flying Saucers - Serious Business' (1966) by Frank Edwards >we are told that "I [Frank Edwards] made headlines around the >world in June of 1962 with the detailed report of five Soviet >space casualties" so the origins of these stories are not just >later day rumors. Nick, Bruce, Jim: Huh. Thanks for giving a source for that, Nick. Edwards was a fabricator of stories, and the book you cited, "Flying Saucers, Serious Business", had a couple of great, big whoppers. You know, it was the first saucer book to sell a million copies, riding the big 1966 U.S. flap. While it does not seem to have been influential among serious researchers, It certainly was widely read by the public. Please see my Wed, 29 Dec 1999, post to this List, on "Frank Edwards and The Roswell 'Crash'". Thanks to an entry by Jerry Clark and Kevin Randle's calling my attention to a footnote in one of his Roswell books, we know that Edwards mentioned Roswell in his popular lectures, as early as 1955 or 1956. He was apparently the first to unequivocally use the word "crash" with Roswell, first to claim the Army cordoned off the site, and first to claim that that eyewitness actually saw the object crash in flames against a hillside. The later claim may have been his 'enhanced' version of the Willmot's sighting, reported in a 1974 newspaper. Edwards never claimed to have investigated Roswell, himself, but told his listeners in one lecture that they could find this in old news clippings. In recent years many have poured over these old files and there has never come to light any 1947 news articles containing these details. It seems likely that Frank Edwards just invented these key details and may have been an important source of this folklore in his book and popular lectures. On page 127 of the same book Edwards claimed some of these same details about the Dec. 9, 1965, Kecksburg, Pa., incident. He also fabricated his own version of a quote he attributed to Ivan Sanderson, in which Edwards falsely claimed that Sanderson had reported that when State Police and firemen arrived at the site the military was already in control. Sanderson made no such claim. This false element still occasionally surfaces in tales and "accounts" of this incident 34 years later. It's good that a few of us still have copies of this old stuff lying around. Once launched, this "space junk" never seems to die. Clear skies, Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - GT McCoy From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:44:28 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:21:56 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? - GT McCoy Hello, all Robert. >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:59:08 -0400 (EDT) >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:24:29 -0700 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com> >>Subject: Re: Little Green Men Or The U.S. Air Force? >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> ><snip> >>Yep Project Pluto - written up by Air and Space (Smithsonian) >>back in I believe '95. This thing was a device that only could >>have been thought of by Dr. Strangelove. <snip> >A few years back the visions of Pluto came back. I knew a top >level official who attending a briefing. The presentor described >a nuclear Ram Jet engine (ala Pluto type) but with current >technology you could over come all the problems they had in the >60s. >Anyway, the up-shot of it was that this nuclear powered cruise >missile (with a nuke warhead of course) could stay aloft for 5 >to 7 years waiting for the go code to hit targets in >Russia/USSR. Talk about the Sword of Damocles! One of the Ideas expounded on the first run of Pluto, was to tie the damn thing on a teather - sort of like the controline model airplane from Hell - and run it in the desert at Yucca Flats-on a five mile teather. Yeesh, if that thing had broken and sent itself around the world or just to L.A... However there were cooler heads (but not smart enough to cancel this monstrosity) and that idea was droppped. <snip> >the question 'Who is >Strangelove?' Kind of funny. Yep, the scene of Slim Pickens goin' out of the Bomb Bay - one of the classics. Shame they didn't know - might have saved us (US) some money. GT McCoy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: World Slowing Down? From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 22:46:54 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:22:59 -0400 Subject: UpDate: World Slowing Down? 'Lo! I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on something called the "Coriolis Effect"? Someone recently claimed that the Earth can't be millions of years old. They said that by backtracking the rate of decay in the Earth's rotation, it would have been producing incredible winds due to the "Coriolis Effect" millions of years ago via the super fast speed of rotation. Or something like that... Any takers? Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: Public Request To Robert Bigelow & NIDS - Cecchini From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 23:54:08 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:24:35 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Public Request To Robert Bigelow & NIDS - Cecchini After trying to wade thru this controversy (and I have to admit that originally I thought the "rich guy" that John's been referring to was gonna be none other than Mr. Firmage himself. Anyways...), I'm left wondering why I didn't think to try calling Budd Hopkins on Mike Siegel last night, just to see what his thoughts were on all of this. Hmmmm, an email? Oh wait, doesn't Budd sometimes read this list?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Cecchini From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 23:59:18 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:26:03 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Cecchini Forget the Billy Meier photos, can someone please give me more info on the Juarez, Mexico videos at the bottom of Shirley's site? For reasons I won't get into now, I'm always very interested in videos such as these that show the "UFO" object slowly "fade away" or "dematerialize". Thanx.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: Another MJ12 Source - Cecchini From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 00:21:22 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:29:04 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Another MJ12 Source - Cecchini >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:14:30 -0400 >From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net> >Subject: Re: Another MJ12 Source >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Have you ever spoke with someone with claims to have direct >knowledge of or have worked for MJ12? I have spoken with 10 >such persons - <snip> >I am a West Point grad who worked a contractor with a number >of intelligence agencies - NSA, NRO, CIA, DIA, AIA, NIMA - >and developed some patented technology (5,764,973) to assist >NSA. I have personally met with the past Deputy Directors of >NSA (Bill Crowell) and CIA/SS&T (Dr. Ruth David) in their >offices. I speak their lingo and know who to ask about things >- like MJ12. In the spirit of "keepin' it real" & presenting an opposing side, I currently do work for the NSA (indirectly), have supervisors that are ex-NSA, have had coworkers who were ex-NSA, have met some of our NSA customers, etc., and inevitably, at some point (either when they see the things hanging on the walls in my office, or when I just flat out ask them), The Topic (you know the one) comes up. So far, no one knows anything about the NSA & Aliens. Oh well. Sure, they could by lying. (doubtful) Or, more likely, they really don't/didn't know a thing. Oh well. I guess I need to learn which people I should go & pester. (waves "Hi!" to Echelon -- hey, you're my customer, dammit, stop snooping on me!) (I do have a co-worker though who is fairly convinced that his kids are seeing either ghosts or aliens coming through the walls. Freaky stuff... And his neighbor believes she's being abducted all the time, and supposedly there's black choppers over her house. Etc etc.) >I find your dismissive attitude amusing. Your choice. Understand that I'm not trying to "debunk" anything. I'm just saying that for the last 8 years I've worked for the DOD, have been surrounded by DOD, NSA & military people, have kept my ears open, and personally I've never heard anything. ...about the coolest thing I've heard is that Ray Fowler worked here for 25 years & retired just before I came aboard. (Sure, how do you know _I'm_ not lying? You don't. But all I can say is that I'm prepared to be ufology's "John the Baptist" should I ever be convinced of the reality of this phenomenon. Believe me... or don't.) And now you must be excusing me: after a post like this (I don't think I violated any security rules) I have to go see if my phones start making that _clicking_ noise again...
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: Need Support! - Mulvey From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 00:36:33 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:33:29 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Need Support! - Mulvey >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:08:00 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Need Support! >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Hi John, >Cheeses, Mary, and Joseph, have those guys made it any easier for >guests to log onto the forum? Even with the CD you provided it was >a chore! Once inside, I did enjoyed the time I spent with the folks >at the CompuServe UFO Forum very much. Haven't heard from you in >awhile, I'm glad to hear from you now, and to know that you're still >out there and involved. LOL I was more than mortified that you had such a hard time. Fortunately for both of us we share a twisted sense of humor which offered me a bit of relief! The forum is now available through the web without paying any membership fees. Oh and I'm still out there.<g> >I was beginning to think that the whole issue would just fade >away like so many other threads without any serious discussion >or resolution. I'd like to feel confident encouraging abductees to participate in research because it's obviously important for the field and in some cases to abductees lives. Because of my own experiences both first and third person, I honestly don't feel comfortable making that recommendation. I haven't for years. Some of that has to do with my own bias interpretations, but most of it has to do with the dangling thread of ethical uncertainty. Since the obvious need for care with this information is being ignored by who knows how many researchers, I think it's time to get some legal advice and develop some standards. >If (we) don't speak out now, what's to stop anyone else from >converting the personal reports and information obtained from >abductees into cash. Privacy and anonymity are _not_ for sale. >That message needs to be sent and burned into the minds of any >researchers who may begin to think of their abductee clients as >a convenient commodity. A 'cash cow.' Agreed. Knowing Bigelow handed Carpenter money gives a pimpish twist to an already disgraceful situation. >If it was me... I would definitely want to know if my personal >files had been sold and to whom. No ifs, ands, or buts. Me too! Just with our abductee online areas, you and I both know the importance of confidentiality and the right to anonymity. That's a no-brainer. The disregard for these 140 people and potentially many more is just plain lewd. >Only _twenty_ of the 140 individuals even know that John >Carpenter has sold their files/info to Robert Bigelow. They >need to be informed. Hopefully the scope of this issue will be recognized by NIDS and they'll take care of this. >We also need to find out 'who else' took advantage of the >opportunity and sold abductee files to Mr. Bigelow. NIDS could have solicited all abductee researchers. It sure would help if some researchers would come forward on this list. There sure was plenty dripping compassion and chit-chat prior to the interviews and videos! Where is it now? >Feeling not so alone any more. :) You're not. I sat on this response all day. I'm more upset now than I was earlier. Overdue hug, Ann
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:12:54 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:36:36 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter Hello All, Much to his credit Budd has responded to the request for a comment from him on this Carpenter issue quickly. This is a forward of the note I have received from him. There is one deletion (a paragraph) that was in the nature of a personal note to me that Budd asked me to delete. Otherwise the note is as he sent it. You may respond on the list if you wish to, and I'm pretty sure that Budd will get to read it. But, I know Budd and engaging in dialog on Internet e-mail Lists is just not his cup of tea. Don't expect 'on list' responses from him. Here are Budd's comments on the Carpenter business. Thank you for your timely response Budd. :) John Velez ---------------------------------------------------------------- Dear John, In response to your E-mail about John Carpenter's sale, I have a few comments. I have always respected John and his work, and regard him as a friend. Friend's, however, have been known to make mistakes. John has obviously made one. Not being a fair-weather type of friend, I still regard him with real affection. He has made solid contributions to the field and helped a great many abductees, and his error of judgement in the sale should be judged in this context.. I do not know the details of this sale to NIDS, but I am willing to make a few guesses: a) the price he was paid was probably so low that it was barely worth while because of the time John undoubtedly had to spend removing names and uidentifying features. from the files. My guess is that this was no financial bonanza. b.) Knowing John, I am certain that he thought he was aiding research by allowing NIDS scientists to review his material. As I said, it was a mistake not to have received permission first from the clients involved, but I am certain that the sale was not a crass move to make a quick buck. c) I have never sold any files, nor do I ever intend to, though I was once asked to do so. I declined. d). The whole issue bears on the difficulties of a shared data bank, such as you have often proposed. I have decided that it is better to work alone and to share findings with close colleagues and then to publish the results rather than set up a data bank. With Boylan participating, for example? I am currently working on my fourth book, and have produced an embarrassing mass of special reports, bulletins, articles, lectures and so forth on the subject. I think of you often, and wish you the very best. And remember us to Margie, a generous, loving woman Sincerely, Budd -- ______________________________________________ A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center - www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm jvif@spacelab.net "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ______________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:07:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:09:15 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Hammond >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:59:00 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:48:09 -0400 >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Innocent until proven guilty Liz. The silence does say a lot, >but it doesn't condemn anyone either. It's only been two weeks. >Maybe if we all continue to ask them to make a public comment >here on the List and by sending them private requests we'll >eventually hear from a few of them. At least I hope so. 'Total >silence' at this point, can only do them more harm than good. >The more 'timely' their response the better. The better for >ufology and, the future of abduction research. Dear John: You are correct. Innocent until proven guilty. I'm afraid I let my upset feelings about all this get me a little too carried away. >Thank you for the consistent support that you have given from >the very beginning Liz. I am deeply grateful for it and I won't >forget it. If ever you should need anything from me, all you >have to do is ask. ;) >"United we stand!" You gave me a lot of help when I most needed it. Especially providing an introduction to Budd. I know that you have done the same over the years, without pay of any kind, helping any number of people just like me. Frightened, bewildered and lonely abductees who had no idea where to turn for help. I am aware of everything you've given. You were brave enough to stick your neck out there for all of us, and I know we number at least in the thousands. Surely it wouldn't be fair if all those thousands left you to hang out there alone. I firmly feel that _all_ abductees must stick together and stay together when these sort of crisis arise. It felt good tonight to finally start reading positive, supportive responses. I'm sure it was more of a pleasure for you! In short, we must stay together. Not only is there safety and strength in numbers, but there is understanding and acceptance there, too. Let's just hope this ball continues to roll as it has begun to. It seems like there is real momentum happening out there and a glimmer of hope for change. What a wonderful thing that would be, wouldn't it? Yours, Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Roswell: Plan To Relocate UFO Museum Feared From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:50:02 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:14:28 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Roswell: Plan To Relocate UFO Museum Feared Source: AP via the Albuquerque Journal, URL: http://www.abqjournal.com/news/81353news07-17-00.htm Stig *** Monday, July 17, 2000 Plan to Relocate UFO Museum Feared The Associated Press ** ROSWELL - City business leaders fear a plan to move the International UFO Museum and Research Center from downtown Roswell to the city's outskirts would steer hundreds of thousands of visitors away from downtown and devastate its economy. Max Littel, treasurer and co-founder of the UFO museum, said he plans to relocate the museum about 10 miles west of the city to a site off U.S. 70 because it has outgrown its current location downtown. But Roberta Ahlness, president of Main Street Roswell's Board of Directors, is convinced downtown would suffer "a major economic rupture" if the UFO museum moved. She said the museum draws between 250,000 to 300,000 visitors every year and should remain within the city. "There's space still available downtown," Ahlness said. "We don't object to them moving and expanding, we just want to keep them downtown." The UFO museum already has 25 acres of land surrounding the new site "tied up", Littel said. The museum needs $10 million to complete the transaction, he said. "We're not saying that's the only place we want to move", he said. "The main thing is, we've run out of room here." Littel said the number of museum visitors increases annually. This year alone, he said they've already seen 4,400 more visitors than the same time last year. "There's no time element, but we can't just keep twiddling our thumbs.", he said. "We can't just stay where we are and grow." Downtown merchants are concerned about what will happen if the museum relocates. "I think it's going to be devastating," said Barbara Hedricks, manager of Cowtown Boots. "I think it's really going to wipe out downtown Roswell." Hedricks estimated that 50 percent of the customers who patronize Cowtown Boots are tourists - many of whom would not be there without the presence of the UFO Museum. Connie Amador, owner of Apache Gallery, said her business is absolutely dependent upon the money the museum's visitors bring in. "We hardly get any town people - unless they have visitors with them," she said. * All content copyright � ABQJournal.com and Albuquerque Journal and may not be republished without permission. Requests for permission to republish, or to copy and distribute must be obtained at the the Albuquerque Publishing Co. Library, 505-823-3492.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:19:21 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:11:21 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale - Hammond >Date: Tue, 187 Jul 2000 17:34:31 -0400 >From: Liz Hammond<Lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Re: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:34:31 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >If you will put me in touch with some of the folks who set up >the website, I will create and post an American version of it on >the Internet. I don't have the $ for dot com addresses and the >like, but I can post it onto the web via my personal account. >If anyone wants to donate the '.com address' money I will donate >the bandwidth, website design and maintenance services. Let's >just _do_ it. If this gets lost or forgotten in endless debate >it'll never happen. Whether it will have "teeth" or not doesn't >even matter. We need something like this and we need it now. Dear John: We are far from wealthy people, but will certainly "put our money where our mouth is". How much does a ".com address" cost? If you'll post it, I am sure I can manage to donate at least something towards it. If all those who have expressed concern about this gave just a small amount, you should have the money needed pretty quick! Someone has to take the bull by the horns instead of just discussing the pros and cons endlessly on this and other Lists, right? Let's all get started then! Yours, Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Ohio Crop Circle Discovery From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 02:38:17 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:16:28 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Ohio Crop Circle Discovery Crop Circles Appear Close To Home Sunday, July 2, 2000 Chillicothe Gazette Bainbridge family farm is newest host to mysterious rings By Rami Yoakum Gazette staff writer Bainbridge - ET phone home? Lovers of mysteries and UFO enthusiasts take heed: Paranormal activity is alive and well just east of Bainbridge on U.S. 50. On the farm of Roscoe and Elizabeth Swartz three genuine crop circles have appeared. They were discovered in a wheat field Thursday by farmer Bob Mark - who was bailing hay at the time. Some possible - albeit maybe not plausible - reasons for their appearance include, but are not limited to: aliens, Druids, Native American mysticism, the recent summer solstice, or maybe they are simply the work of a resourceful and inventive prankster. Whatever the case may be, the Swartz's have but a short time to enjoy their circles: That field is scheduled to be cut today. "There's no sign of machinery, but they're so geometrically perfect," said Roscoe, an oral surgeon. "Maybe it has to do with summer solstice." Evidence to the contrary is scarce, "I don't know how anyone could've gotten in or out... nothing's knocked down and there are no tracks - it's a phenomenon we just can't explain," he added. One of the circles is nearly 40 feet in diameter - but it is the other two that appear most interesting. They contain an inner circle of almost 30 feet in diameter, an outer "ring" of three feet in width that encompasses the center circle. Two "concentric circles" if you will. The trio of circles are just a few feet apart and are in an area not far from Seip Mound - where ancient earthworks once stood - before losing their battle with the plow. "There's a lot of Indian lore about this area..." continued Roscoe. The Swartz family has lived on the farm for 31 years and have never seen anything like it. "I think maybe we were invaded by the Druids," Roscoe further hypothesized. According to Elizabeth and Roscoe, the circles are a welcome break: "Usually the biggest thing they find around here are marijuana plants - and no one knows where they come from either!" Roscoe said that when he first saw the circles he though "What is this?" then spent some time making crude measurements and taking a few pictures before calling The Gazette. "Every now and then there's some goofy article like this in there - I thought it'd be fun." Dale Mark was there continuing work on the hay bailing process. "My wife said I'd been dreaming about UFO's," he said - before deciding it might be better not to go on. Elizabeth, who is an artist, was much more careful with her words. Unlike her husband she seemed dubious of committing herself to the question of their origins. "Whether it's a hoax or not it's still well done," she said, commenting somewhat reluctantly "I better not mention UFOs." With the hay scheduled to be baled today, and no explanation of their origins likely to come, for now Elizabeth and Roscoe can only ponder the question "Where did they come from?" while the Bainbridge crop circles are soon to be another one of "History's Mysteries." End of article NOTE: Thanks to researcher John Timmerman for informing of this newspaper item on Saturday, July 16. For a map identifying Bainbridge, Ohio, see: http://home.fuse.net/ufo/bainbridge.html -- UFO Research http://home.fuse.net/ufo/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Kaeser From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 06:09:32 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:24:24 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Kaeser >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:55:25 -0700 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >Subject: Re: MacLaine Opens Website >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Hi Steve: >Oh heck, I suppose you are right. I cannot feature Shirley >Maclaine working through the intricacies of HTML programming. >She might have asked her webmaster to find some nice UFO photos >to look through. >If her website is visited by new-age types, I doubt they worry >much about the provenance of the Meier picture anyway. >I still think its sort of neat to track it down like Brian did. >I wouldn't have gone to the bother myself. >I know next to nothing about Shirley Maclaine, other than what I >have read on the web. I didn't know about any UFO sighting she >had in South America, nor that she even went there at all. >Let me hazard a real wild guess, a complete shot from the hip. >Was Shirley Maclaine in Peru when she saw her own personal UFO? >I'm not going to buy a book to find out. Larry- I think it was Peru, but I didn't read the book. I'll have to ask my wife, who read Maclaine's earlier works. I believe that Shirley Maclaine is sincere in her beliefs, which IMO fall solidly on the New Age end of ufology. As I recall, her description of the event in South America was similar to a spiritual revelation, rather than a nut-and-bolt "close encounter". Her books are about her quest for knowledge and purpose, and not about UFOs per se. In the early 70's I stopped reading all material related to the UFOs when I noticed a trend toward what we now call the "New Age" side of ufology. Popular books of that time period were shifting toward that tangent, and when a book on the Burmuda Triangle contained comments from a researcher that it was likely a doorway to the afterlife, I decided it was time to back away. I think that this is about the same time that Shirley was beginning her "journey", which was probably more a quest for meaning than an examination of unknown lights in the sky. In the early 90's I became involved with the Internet and re-ignited my interest in the subject, and it would seem that someone has now convinced Shirley that she should become a fixture in cyberspace. It once again shows that ufology is a very large tent and there are far too many theories and beliefs to keep track of. Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Cydonian Imperative: New Page Added From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 23:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:18:45 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Cydonian Imperative: New Page Added The following is the text for the latest installment to my Mars site. The images referred to can be viewed by clicking on http://www.geocities.com/macbot/imperative7.html --Mac Tonnies 7-18-00 New Images, New Questions The Enterprise Mission (aka Richard Hoagland) has recently expounded on its contention that Mars' surface masks an elaborate network of underground water pipes. The bright, elongated formations pictured below are being identified as possible pipes or ducts, exposed either deliberately or through surface erosion. I personally lean toward a geological explanation for these and other, similar features (such as the "tunnel" discussed on the previous page). The "pipes" do not appear like sand dunes, as NASA has intimated, and I predict their origin can only be determined by surface exploration. [picture] Unusually bright linear features under scrutiny by indepedent Mars researchers. Additionally, Hoagland has once again identified unusual Martian terrain that, enlarged, appears curiously similar to terrestrial architecture. Little imagination is necessary to interpret the image below as a decimated city. The image resolution is approximately 1.5 meters/pixel. [picture] The interesting terrain in this image recalls satellite photography of earthly cities. The coarse geometry on display is consistent with eroded buildings. But is this what we're seeing? Are we seeing a Martian "city" or seeking a signal among so much noise? While I don't share the Enterprise Mission's conviction that certain recently discovered anomalies must be artificial (indeed, I think the jury is still out on the "Face" itself), I'm intrigued by these unlikely Martian "suburbs." If artificial, they don't conform to the logic used in explaining large, possibly artificial structures such as the D&M and Main City Pyramid. The latter formations, while easily defying known terrestrial architecture, conform well to what has been called the "Arcology Hypothesis," which holds that conditions on Mars were so severe that the hypothetical inhabitants were forced to build massive enclosures to sustain an artificial ecosystem (much like the ones suggested for use in "generation arcs" and other theoretical starships which would take centuries to reach their destinations). The "suburbs," however, suggest that Martian civilization was once able to thrive unprotected. We could be looking back in time to two separate epochs. Or perhaps the "arcology" presumption is premature; the "new" findings of liquid water on Mars promise to rewrite much of what we "know" about our sister planet. The "suburbs" are particularly interesting when taken in context with the many proposed "pipes." Taken together, they suggest a culture eerily similar to that postulated by astronomer Pervical Lowell, who convinced many that Mars was inhabited by an environmentally threatened intelligent population who made use of enormous canals to transport water from the planet's dying polar caps. (It would be a fascinating irony if Lowell's speculations were proved essentially true in the near future.) Discoveries such as the above lead me to suspect the Artificiality Hypothesis may never be vindicated or defeated by orbital observations. NASA's recent plans to send an "airplane" to Mars in '03 and various proposals to set instrumented balloons aloft in the Martian atmosphere might give us the resolution we need to solve some of these issues. As always, a crewed mission is preferable, and there is no convincing reason why a manned mission to Mars cannot be underway within the next ten years. **** Van Flandern Cites Evidence That "Proves" Face is Artificial Tom Van Flandern's recently redesigned Meta Research site contains a fascinating new article explaining steps taken in obtaining the latest enhancement of the 1998 Face image (see below, far right). [picture] Three frames from a new animation showing likely overhead appearance of the Face. The image on the right is the most accurate reconstruction yet attempted. It is my opinion that Van Flandern's reconstruction is the most accurate yet seen. Confirming details such as headpiece ornamentation, symmetrical base, nostrils, lips, and eye cavities (with strategic use of shadow-casting structure that maintain facial integrity under a variety of lighting conditions) argue strongly in favor of artificiality, along with reasons enumerated elsewhere on this site. While Van Flandern's claim of "proof" is arguably premature, he has successfully shown that the Face is a great deal weirder and provocative than JPL's initial "enhancements" led the media to believe when the "catbox" image was released two years ago. My contention is that the Face is probably artificial; even in the face on Van Flandern's statistical probablities, I am reticent to consider artificiality "proven." I am equally undecided on the validity of Van Flandern's "Exploded Planet Hypothesis," in which Mars was once the moon of a deceased planet whose inhabitants built the Face on Mars' old equator (for cultural reasons we can only guess at). Van Flandern's unorthodox theory for the origin of the asteroid belt (i.e. the far-flung corpse of the "exploded planet") produces interesting possibilities for the origin of Mars' two small moons as well. Phobos, Mars' largest moon, has been the subject of controversy for many years. While prevailing astronomical theory is that it is a captured asteroid, a decent case can be made for the moon being an artificially modified asteroid--perhaps even a "generation arc"of some sort that brought the "Martians" to Mars in the first place. Evidence for this includes Phobos' unique orbit, that has teased astronomers with possibility of the moon being hollow, as well as several anomalies on its surface, the most famous being the strange linear "grooves" that seem to emanate from Crater Stickney, Phobos' dominant surface feature. (Stickney itself is something of an enigma; if the impact that produced it had been even slightly larger, chances are Phobos would have disintegrated). There remains the possibility that Phobos is indeed hollow, at least partially, and that Stickney represents an opening of some kind. [picture] Graphic showing apparent "monolith" jutting from the otherwise flat, smooth surface of Mars' moon Phobos. Recently, researchers Lan Fleming and Efrain Palermo produced a provocative analysis of an apparent "monolith" on Phobos' surface that appears inconsistent with the rest of the satellite's rounded topology. The "monolith," above, appears to be an unexpectedly tall outcropping of some kind. As it appears in isolation and contradicts the surrounding terrain, an argument can be made for artificial origin. **** Evidence of Image Tampering? Many Mars theorists have claimed that Malin Space Science Systems, NASA's Mars Global Surveyor camera contractor, has been "airbrushing" or omitting anomalous surface features that would tend to bear out artificiality. The evidence for this, so far as I can tell, is nonexistent. However, the following image, provided to me by David Jinks, shows a clear indication of incompetence, if nothing else. [picture] Look closely; several of the landforms in the picture are alongside exact duplicates. When satellite images are returned to Earth, they are assembled into mosaics that reflect the planet's entirety. Assembling a coherent, global picture of a planetary body such as Mars is careful and exacting work. The alarming feature in the above image is, of course, the precise reproduction of certain surface features, producing a kind of topological "double vision." This image apparently consists of two pictures that have been erroneously positioned in their respective mosaic. While this could be an accident (human or computer), it could also represent a deliberate attempt to conceal features or censor imaging data. ===== Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 239 E. Sea Independence, MO 64050 816-833-5910 Life on Mars: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html Reviews: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/bookreviews.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Van Tassel Paintings For Auction From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 06:02:54 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:31:27 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Van Tassel Paintings For Auction Van Tassel Paintings Offered Widow of alleged alien contactee auctions original paintings on e-Bay During the 1950s something unusual happened in ufology. Was it another spectacular UFO sighting? Another UFO crash recovered by the military? No, it was something much stranger... Ah, yes. The contactees, the unusual and quite unbelievable humans claiming to have had face to face encounters with aliens from Mars, Venus and a host of other planets. These alleged aliens, often called 'space bothers', brought messages of peace and hope for the future of planet Earth. Along with them came a number of outrageous claims made by the contactees themselves and they were mostly blasted as frauds out to make a quick dollar. Most of those familiar with ufology will recognize the names; George Adamski, Geroge Hunt Williamson, Howard Menger, Frank Stranges. And then there's George Van Tassel. Van Tassel, who lived in a cave inside California's famous (or infamous) Giant Rock located east of Los Angeles, claimed to have been contacted by aliens from Venus in the desert of California during the 1950s. Van Tassel claims that the aliens invited him into their flying saucer and gave him information on how to build what Van Tassel called an "Integratron," a machine designed for "rejuvinating living cell tissues." Van Tassel built the "Integratron" which, along with Giant Rock, became a hot spot for UFO conventions and tours. Van Tassel died in 1978, the building and the rock were vacated and the rock has been the site of an annual UFO gathering where believers of Van Tassel's claim that aliens will land. So far, no aliens. The "Integratron" building was up for sale and bought sometime in 1996 and is now maintained by a group offering workshops, meditation sessions and tours. Giant Rock split into two sometime during last February. George Van Tassel is survived by his wife Dorris, who now has 40 original paintings on the popular Internet auction site e-Bay. The following comes from the website describing what is up on the auctioning block: "40 original paintings from Dorris Van Tassel, wife of famous UFO contactee George Van Tassel. All original "Color Alludes", done in oils, and covering a wide portrayal of themes from the paranormal aspect. A genuine collectors package .Done on canvas and ranging in size from 18in.by 18in. to 3.5ft.by 4ft. Excellent Condition" While it sounds like a good deal, the starting bid of $50,000.00 has yet to see any takers while shipping for the paintings is a mere $75.00. The paintings are being offered by one G.S. Riddle, an apparent supporter of Van Tassel and his beliefs. The auction can be viewed at: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=383309605 e-Bay offers a wide variety of items for auction from private parties including many rare and unusual UFO items. eXpos: The Watchdog of ufology "Don't Trip On Your Open Mind." eXpos News http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3 UFO Hall o' Shame http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Myers From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:05:35 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:33:55 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Myers >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 23:59:18 -0400 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> >Subject: Re: MacLaine Opens Website >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >Forget the Billy Meier photos, can someone please give me more >info on the Juarez, Mexico videos at the bottom of Shirley's >site? >For reasons I won't get into now, I'm always very interested in >videos such as these that show the "UFO" object slowly "fade >away" or "dematerialize". Ron, As far as I know, this video (from the ever so infamous Lee and Brit Elders) was determined to have been a lighted blimp. I believe Bruce B. made this determination, but I could be mistaken. Watch the video and you can see a flashing aviation light on the bottom of it. The camera moves around a lot making it look quite dramatic. You may want to try and get a copy of the original footage in VHS format. I think I have a copy of it around here somewhere. Let me know if you're interested in it and I'll fire a copy off your way. Regards, Royce J. Myers III eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy - "Don't Trip On Your Open Mind." eXpos News http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3 (UPDATED) UFO Hall o' Shame http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Ufological Code of Conduct From: Jim Klotz <jimklotz@foxinternet.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:46:05 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:32:44 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Ufological Code of Conduct Dear Listmembers, Last Fall, my partners and I brainstormed a couple of ideas to move our website and Ufology forward. Our motivation is to contribute something more than what CUFON has done for many years: making verified selected UFO-related documents available. The discussion over the selling of investigatory files containing personal information, and the ensuing thoughts about a Ufological code of conduct force me to change our plans and publish one of the two main ideas we decided to develop while it is still in draft form. It is precisely a Ufological Code of Conduct that we intend to establish. While the specific subject of divulging personal information is not expressly dealt with, other areas where guidelines for appropriate conduct are required also need work. We started our draft code by researching a dozen or so codes used by professional societies, and borrowed concepts from these. We had intended to introduce our draft code after we had gotten the other main project up and running, an on-line peer reviewed UFO journal. We have been working on the journal idea and had shelved the code of conduct idea in order to introduce it later. We have recruited already two people as reviewers for the journal, and recruitment email will be going out to a selected list of people very soon. Our intention was to selectively submit our draft code of conduct to certain individuals for comment and input, and then publish the code. Instead, I am making the draft code available on list for comment, below. Please email your comments to me personally at: jimklotz@foxinternet.net Please keep in mind that we know we haven't cover all the bases; the draft code needs work. Looking forward to your input, Jim Klotz CUFON SYSOP ___________ c) Copyright 2000 - The Computer UFO Network CUFON STANDARDS and CODE OF CONDUCT Internecine arguments, ad hominem attacks instead of civil discourse, irrational championing of ideas long since invalidated, documents without provenance, false claims of special knowledge, misrepresentation of qualifications, unsupportable assertions, and apparently irreconcilable differences between "believer" and "skeptic" camps are but some elements of the chaos that reigns in Ufology today. It is no wonder that establishment science and the public, especially those members of the public newly approaching the subject, reject the good work that has been done in the field of Ufology along with the bad. The reputation of Ufology suffers, efforts to bring respectability and honor to the field and to attain mainstream acceptance are impeded. This initiative - declaring Ufological standards and establishing a peer reviewed UFO oriented internet publication - is an attempt to address this situation. The CUFON Code of Conduct was modeled after established codes in use by several highly respected professional organizations. It is not an attempt to control anything in any way; compliance with the standards would be completely voluntary. The Seal An official Seal would be created, permission to use or display which would be granted upon receipt of a signed statement of agreement with, and intent to follow, the standards as published. Only individuals and organizations who intend to abide by these guidelines should seek permission to use or display the official seal of the standards. Persons, web sites and organizations who are authorized to use or display the Seal will be listed on the CUFON web site along with a link. If permission is withdrawn to use or display the Seal, a notice will be posted in the same location. TOWARD A DEFINITION OF THE PHENOMENON Although nothing in the following text is intended to be exclusionary to good science and research, we think it important to say a few things toward defining what central issues Ufology seeks to solve. Seeing no need to "reinvent the wheel", we'd like to quote Dr. J. Allen Hynek's statement of definition as many have before us: "We can define the UFO simply as the reported perception of an object or light seen in the sky or upon the land the appearance, trajectory, and general dynamic and luminescent behavior of which do not suggest a logical, conventional explanation and which is not only mystifying to the original percipients but remains unidentified after close scrutiny of all available evidence by persons who are technically capable of making a common-sense identification, if one is possible." - (J. Allen Hynek, The UFO Experience, A Scientific Inquiry, 1972, Henry Regnery Company, Chicago IL, page 10) It is our contention that what Ufology properly seeks is reliable information about the UFO phenomenon, or more likely the range of observed phenomena, which will bring us closer to an identification of what the phenomena actually represents. Since we maintain that no one really knows exactly what this is, the best way that a definition can be approached is to list characteristics of UFO reports which indicate high information content. We believe that these kinds of reports represent a most valuable resource and, through proper analysis, are the most likely way of coming closer to identifying what the phenomena truly represents. Characteristics of High Information Content Reports Few, if any, UFO reports will have all of these characteristics listed, and in those reports which have several of the listed characteristics, these may not be properly documented. This is an obvious demonstration of the need for higher investigative standards and practices. Law enforcement participation in protecting locations where physical effects exist, and obtaining initial witness information could obviously be of great value. The list below is not intended to be complete, but is designed to give some examples of characteristics. 1. Object(s) observed display behavior not attributable to common, known objects - such as, but not limited to, silent hovering and apparent "massless" acceleration 2. Object(s) are observed from a close enough distance so that details are clearly visible - generally "the closer the better" (for observation - witness safety is paramount) 3. Object(s) are observed for a sufficient time so that details of appearance and behavior may be clearly observed and reported. - generally "the longer the better" 4. Effects on the environment apparently caused by the presence of the object(s) are properly protected and documented. If observed at the time of the sighting, these effects are reported by witness(es) 5. Object(s) are independently observed by multiple witnesses preferably from several disparate locations. Best if all witnesses are identified and statement obtained as close to the time of sighting as possible 6. Instrumented detection of the object(s) is obtained and documented properly (radar, light spectra, photographs, audio recording, radio spectrum analysis, etc.) Best if such detection is made simultaneously with multiple independent visual sightings. While the above mainly addresses UFO reports, we recognize that properly conducted research in other areas also has great value. Examples include, but are not limited to, physics of sight, physiology and psychology of witnesses, historical documentation, official verified documents (with proper provenance), related astronomy, atmospherics, location and preservation of collections, libraries and other historical materials, etc. We do not believe that enough objective evidence exists at this time to connect crop circles, animal mutilations, cryptozoological topics, ghosts and hauntings or other topics characterized as "new age" such as channeling to the subject of UFO. Nor do we believe that enough evidence (such as, but not limited to, physical evidence, independent witness testimony, etc.) to accept so-called UFO abductions as entirely objective occurrences. Additionally, problems with researcher objectivity and use of hypnotic regression techniques, hamper face-value acceptance of the phenomenon. While it is clear from the number of persons reporting abductions that something going on, whether abductions are internal or external remains to be proven. This is not to say that we wish to prohibit research into abductions, quite the contrary; we wish to establish standards which will promote objective, properly conducted research and publication of results. STANDARDS - THE CUFON CODE OF CONDUCT In short, the goal is for all persons working in the field of Ufology and related pursuits to adhere to the highest ethical standards. These standards start with some general concepts followed by more detailed examples of desirable and undesirable behaviors for each of the initial concepts listed. These sections are then followed by additional more detailed sections addressing certain additional areas of pursuit. Initial Concepts Behaviors which breach standards presented here have negative effects not only on individuals, but compromise the whole of Ufology. Persons active in Ufology and related pursuits will: * act with honesty, integrity * conduct research, write, report and speak with accuracy and objectivity * act in ways which will increase and uphold the honor and dignity of Ufology * treat others with respect, tolerance and dignity * continue to advance their own knowledge and competency * seek to locate and protect collections of UFO-related material * act as a contributing member of the "UFO Community" * conduct data collection activities ethically Honesty and Integrity 1. Honesty is to be considered the foundation of ethics in Ufology 2. Ufologists should encourage adherence to ethical standards, and to act appropriately when violations of ethical standards are detected. 3. Information should only be published or otherwise disseminated in a truthful and objective manner. 4. Ufologists should always give credit where it is due 5. Ufologists should work in the areas of their strengths 6. Ufologists should acknowledge that honest error is a natural part of life, that it is not unethical to be honestly wrong. However, verified errors should be acknowledged and corrected in a timely manner Ufologists should never: 7. knowingly take credit for the work of others 8. misrepresent one's own education, training, experience or other qualifications 9. plagiarize the work of others or fail to properly credit sources or act indifferently to such acts 10. fabricate results of evidence or its sources, research, documents, etc, or act indifferently to such acts 11. act in deceptive ways or in ways that damage the credibility of Ufology or act indifferently to such acts 12. permit a conflict of interest to bias, or appear to compromise, honesty, integrity, objectivity or effectiveness, or act indifferently toward a known conflict of interest 13. permit the opportunity for financial or other compensation to bias, or appear to compromise, honesty, integrity, objectivity or effectiveness , or act indifferently toward such a known situation 14. withhold or omit any findings or opinions that would cause facts of a case to be misinterpreted 15. compete unfairly with anyone 16. make overstated or unfounded or premature claims or statements Integrity in Accurate and Objective Research and Reporting 1. Techniques and practices used in research should be reasonable and appropriate to the project 2. All evidence should be thoroughly examined and sound principles utilized in a scientific manner in accordance with accepted standards where possible 3. Ufologists should verify that information produced by others is accurate and of appropriate quality 4. Strive to make certain that written materials are as complete and accurate as possible, and that opinion, speculation and conclusions are clearly identified as such, and that limitation in analytical methods employed are disclosed 5. Research results should be presented clearly to facilitate analysis and review 6. Sources of information should be properly identified 7. Sources of information should be made available to other researchers 8. Ufologists should exercise critical self-discipline and judgment in using, extending, and disseminating knowledge 9. Be aware of one's own bias, predilections and beliefs so that these may be avoided as pitfalls and objectivity prevail 10. Proper practices dictates that researchers follow wherever the data leads 11. Opinions on Ufological subjects should only be issued when based on adequate knowledge and honest conviction Advance and Uphold the Dignity and Honor of Ufology 1. Ufologists should conduct themselves such that their actions increase the competence, dignity and honor of Ufology 2. Ufologists should always act in a dignified and modest manner when in explaining his/her work, therefore upholding the honor and dignity of Ufology 3. Respect for the truth, proper procedure and respectful behavior reflects well not only upon the individual, but upon Ufology as a whole. Therefore, each individual's behavior, if in concert with ethical principles can either uphold and increase the dignity of Ufology, or if counter to ethical principles, damage and decrease the dignity of Ufology. Treat Others with Respect and Tolerance 1. Ufologists should act in ways that will not falsely demean the reputation of others. 2. Ufologists should not unjustly or unfairly criticize the work of other researchers 3. Ufologists should treat associates with respect, encourage them, share ideas honestly, and give credit for their contributions 4. Ufologists should not discriminate against or harass colleagues. 5. Ufologists show due respect for the opinions of others, even during the heat of the exchange of ideas and criticism 6. Accurate, appropriate criticism of a published work is justified; but personal criticism is not. 7. Civility and tolerance should govern the conduct of Ufologists in their relations with one another and with other interested parties. 8. Respectful dialogue among Ufologists and other interested persons holding diverse points of view is of great value and makes possible the fruitful exchange of views, opinions, and knowledge Personal Development 1. Ufologists should continue their personal development, striving to improve his/her own skills, breadth of knowledge and abilities 2. Ufologists should strive to keep current with developments not only in fields related to matters Ufological, but also in other scientific and technical fields 3. Ufologists should share ideas and information to facilitate others in advancing themselves. Locate and Protect Collections and Resources Ufologists should: 1. strive to locate, acquire and protect research collections, historic resources and other relevant materials 2. strive to prevent irrevocable loss of data and documentation, not only during its immediately useful life; but advocate documentation and systematic permanent archiving 3. strive to make collections under their control available to others. 4. advocate free and open access to research collections, historic resources and other relevant materials 5. strive to avoid actions which might prejudice future open access to research collections, historic resources and other relevant materials Ufologist as Member of the "UFO Community" 1. Each Ufologist, as member of the "UFO community", shares responsibility for the welfare of that community because conduct reflects not only on the reputations of individual Ufologists and their organizations, but also on the image and credibility of Ufology as perceived by colleagues, the scientific establishment and the public. 2. Ufologists should strive to implement, uphold and improve the code of ethics in cooperation with peers 3. Even though Ufology is made up of diverse people in diverse situations, all Ufologists should be guided by the same code of conduct 4. Each person working in Ufology should strive to establish and maintain a tradition ethical behavior so that this tradition may be conferred upon persons newly entering Ufological endeavor and future generations. 5. Mutual trust among members of the "UFO Community", which results from honest behavior is the best support for advancement within the community. Data Collection Behavior 1. When information is obtained privately, such as in conversation, correspondence, or discussion, it should not be used without permission from the person with whom the information originated 2. Certain kinds of research or use of records impose obligations to maintain confidentiality. If promises are made to persons giving information, these promises must be honored. 3. Ufologists should, to the best of their ability, make certain of the nature and degree of confidentiality desired or required before interviews or other information gathering begins. 4. Persons being interviewed or otherwise providing information should clearly understand the degree of confidentiality with which said information will be handled. 5. Any such conditions placed upon information should be clearly explained in any publications incorporating the information in question. 6. Ufologists conducting interviews should adhere to established standards for "oral history" projects. 7. Information or interviews obtained constitute historical material, and as such, should be protected from loss and made available to others so that verification and further research may be conducted. = = = = = = Down here, specialized sections for: Accepting UFO reports and proper follow-up Field investigations Oral history and other interviews Obtaining and providing proper provenance for documents Proper ethical behavior protecting witnesses WHAT ELSE?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:44:50 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:47:11 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc - Hammond >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:44:18 -0400 (EDT) >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc - Weber >To: updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:34:30 -0400 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>*Errol, This is for the Carpenter/Bigelow thread.> >>From: Bill Weber <wweber1@sc.rr.com> >>To: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: You can send this if you'd like >>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:00:29 -0400 >Sorry Bill, I do not mean to bring a non abductee into this >argument, but no one as yet knows exactly what NIDS had in mind. >And a word to the wise and the unwise. Think on this one for >about a second or two. Then consider backing out, as the thought >just happens to scare the crappola outa me. >Suppose that for just one time, you could stand inside Biggy's >shoes. And for just that one moment, you could be him ... then >think on all the money you have. All the legal power at your >disposal. All the retainers you pay out to your favorite >Consigliari would buy you a new home. And some of the >researchers on frequency, even two new homes. And that's just >the month's retainer. >So there you are, standing inside them rich, Italian leather >shoes. Think about how much of a shit you give about who is >saying what about you. Right or wrong. And especially wrong, >you are dead meat in his eyes. >Now get the hell outa his shoes, he hates it when someone stinks >up his leather. >Jim Mortellaro, realist. Dear Jim: For myself, and I think for many others, Mr. Bigelow is not 'the bad guy' here. He apparently requested to buy these files. The answer was "yes", so he did. I'm sure that at no time did he think he was doing wrong. I wonder if he would have bothered to purchase them if knew what sort of tempest would be stirred up. The person to be held accountable in all this is the person who earned the trust of 140 abductees and then turned around and sold them down the river for thirty pieces of silver. One thing you are right about, Jim, we are not powerless. I think the actions of the last few days proves it.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:06:55 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:49:47 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Maccabee >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:32:28 -0400 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >Subject: Re: MacLaine Opens Website >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 17:59:30 -0700 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >>Subject: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Cuthbertson >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Yep! That's the one all right. I spoke too soon. I take it >>Shirley Maclaine has bought into the Billy Meier story. If so, >>she could have "credited" Meier with the photo. Shirley has indeed bought the "lite" version of ufology. She is a Meier supporter. Ed Walters of Gulf Breeze notoriety, told me years ago that after his book 'The Gulf Breeze Sightings' was published he received a phone call from Miss. Maclaine. He said he was stunned and delighted and told her that he really admired her work and she was one of his favorite actresses, etc. Then she asked something like, "was it really that way?" referring to Walters' descriptions of events which would not normally be considered as sweetness and "lite". She may have even mentioned Meier to Walters. At any rate, he told her it was that way, at least with him, and she hung up and never called again. Point: she doesn't want to hear about the "downside" of ufology... abductions. (Contactees are OK.] "Definition:" Contactees...... have a good time (generally). Abductees....... don't (generally)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: Magonia Monthly Supplement, No. 28 From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:27:02 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:57:57 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Magonia Monthly Supplement, No. 28 >Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 22:09:53 +0100 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Magonia Monthly Supplement, No. 28 >Editor: JOHN HARNEY >No. 28 June 2000 >EDITORIAL >As all Forteans and Magonia readers will be aware, it is not >just UFOs that should arouse our scepticism. A recent item in >The Daily Telegraph (23 June 2000) tells of "a tranquil Italian >village" which is allegedly being terrorised by thieves who >climb drainpipes, enter bedrooms and drug the occupants in their >sleep before ransacking their homes. "Almost everyone" in the >village of Sutri has been or knows a victim "put to sleep" with >a narcotic spray. It is alleged that last year the gang staged >two or three robberies a night and that on some occasions "they >drugged and robbed the occupants of whole blocks of flats". >Curiously, the reporter makes no mention of police comments or >investigations. The story seems implausible to me; it reminds me >of the Mattoon gasser . . . Implausible, indeed. Yet it's a rather frequent fashion for robberers in Italy, nowadays. I admit having long disbelieved such stories, and collected them for our own "urban legends" file, as well as the "hypnotizing robberer" of a few years ago. But I have to testify that it's now established as a recurrent fact, in more than just one town. Italian newspapers are not only reporting testimonies, but also comments by the police and even details of which gases or sprays are being used (non Italians are blamed, usually Slavians or Gypsies). Exactly one year ago, it happened in my own house. At 1:00 a.m. a lone thief climbed along the balconies and tried each and every floor, beginning with the second one and up to the nineth. He sprayed gas into every open window he found, and he managed to enter at least three different apartments, stealing watches, cellular phones, money and jewels easily available. He was discovered by a young man on the nineth floor, who had him run through the window and shouted for help from the balcony (so that the thief was actually seen descending and jumping to the ground by another resident on the opposite side of the road). The youth's parents had difficulties rising from their bed and nausea, sleepiness and other troubles were reported by people on the eighth, sixth, fourth and second floors too. A dog on the second remained strangely asleep all the following morning. The young lady on the eighth floor found her phone and watch missing, plus a strong headache and also found strange sticky footprints inside her room. Just for the record. Regards Edoardo Russo Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici (but also member of the Italian Center for Contemporary Legends Collection)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:32:23 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:18:36 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Hammond >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:12:54 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Hello All, >Much to his credit Budd has responded to the request for a >comment from him on this Carpenter issue quickly. >---------------------------------------------------------------- >Dear John, >In response to your E-mail about John Carpenter's sale, I have a >few comments. >I have always respected John and his work, and regard him as a >friend. Friend's, however, have been known to make mistakes. >John has obviously made one. Not being a fair-weather type of >friend, I still regard him with real affection. He has made >solid contributions to the field and helped a great many >abductees, and his error of judgement in the sale should be >judged in this context.. >I do not know the details of this sale to NIDS, but I am willing >to make a few guesses: >a) the price he was paid was probably so low that it was barely >worth while because of the time John undoubtedly had to spend >removing names and uidentifying features. from the files. My >guess is that this was no financial bonanza. >b.) Knowing John, I am certain that he thought he was aiding >research by allowing NIDS scientists to review his material. As >I said, it was a mistake not to have received permission first >from the clients involved, but I am certain that the sale was >not a crass move to make a quick buck. >c) I have never sold any files, nor do I ever intend to, though >I was once asked to do so. I declined. >d). The whole issue bears on the difficulties of a shared data >bank, such as you have often proposed. I have decided that it is >better to work alone and to share findings with close colleagues >and then to publish the results rather than set up a data bank. >With Boylan participating, for example? I am currently working >on my fourth book, and have produced an embarrassing mass of >special reports, bulletins, articles, lectures and so forth on >the subject. Dear Budd: Thank you so much for your timely response to this matter. I think anyone who reads this post from Budd can easily see why those who work with him universally say what a wonderful, caring gentleman he is. As he says, he is no fair weather friend and is not jumping the ship like some frightened rat. I admire you greatley Budd, for coming out and publicly reaffirming your feelings of friendship for John Carpenter, while not condoning his current activities. Your comments went a long way towards putting all this into perspective. I also appreciate your thoughts on a shared data bank. After all of this, and reading your explanation, I understand why one is really not feasible. I would much rather have you share anything you learned from me with the researchers who are close to you, as I know who they are than with other people who, for whatever reasons, have up and decided that they are 'researchers'. I trust your judgement in this implicitley. I recentley heard of a person who masquaraded as an 'abductee' and gained entree to and became moderator of, what was to be a very private, very confidential on-line support group. Not only did it turn out that this supposed abductee was actually a "researcher", who was _not_ an abductee. But, this person has now written a book based in part on the information gained while presenting theemselves as something they weren't. I believe this person is now on the lecture curcuit flogging this book. I mention this to illustrate that this entire field is loaded with pitfalls - people who have no problem lying to abductees and using them and their weaknessess to get what they want. Regardless of any acts of poor judgement that may be made by the "Real Researchers", it is apparant from Budd's post to us all, that not only do they stand by each other when that is deserved, they are honest and open with each other and with us. Not one of the "Big Researchers" has ever represented themselves as anything but who and what they are. A group of people who genuinly care about abductees and are trying to do their best by them. Again, thank you so much Budd for responding. Your honest, straightforward post certainly helped to make me feel safe and well cared for. As all abductee's who have worked with you no doubt do. With much love & Admiration, Yours in anything you need! Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: UFOIN - Code of Practice From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:58:40 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:25:37 -0400 Subject: UpDate: UFOIN - Code of Practice UFO INVESTIGATORS NETWORK. CODE OF PRACTICE FOR UFO INVESTIGATORS (1999). INTRODUCTION The code of practice (CoP) was created by a series of meetings across the UK during l981/2, during which many then established UFO groups met to self determine standards of ethics, conduct and responsibility. It advises and sometimes directs upon appropriate actions when dealing with witnesses, the authorities, other Ufologists and the public. This voluntarily agreed code helps to preserve common sense, moral behaviour and responsible principles within a field too often riddled with self interest and lack of concern for those effected by UFO activity. The CoP was originally drafted by the following organisations - UFO Investigators Network (UFOIN), British UFO Research Association (BUFORA), Northern UFO Network (NUFON), Manchester UFO Research Association (MUFORA now called NARO), plus several new defunct associations - NUFOIS (Nottingham), SCUFORI (Swindon) and PROBE (Bristol). Contact UK also participated in some stages of the discussions. The code was offered to the community at home and abroad and was accepted in modified form by some other bodies including the paranormal research team ASSAP. The code has since been updated on several occasions by both UFOIN and BUFORA. The version below was agreed by the founder members of the new UFOIN in l999. It forms a binding principle of that team's activities. All UFOIN investigators must sign acceptance and defend themselves against any accusations brought to the attention of UFOIN that they are in serious breach of its clauses. Consequences up to and including dismissal from the team may follow. The Code of Practice for UFO Investigators General: A. The CoP is intended to offer guidance, advice and where appropriate mandatory actions to preserve rational, objective and ethical investigation of UFOs and witnesses. B. The version that follows is agreed by UFOIN to be a binding set of principles for all team members to follow. C. The CoP should be adhered to wherever possible by all UFOIN investigators. Any person may bring to the attention of UFOIN an alleged breach of this code by one of its team. Both the complainant and UFOIN member accused will have the opportunity to offer a statement to all other UFOIN members, who shall decide by majority vote on any action deemed necessary. Definitions. Except where specifically stated, words shall have the commonly accepted meaning, all cases of doubt to be resolved by reference to the Concise Oxford English Dictionary. (a) Reference to the singular includes the plural, and vice versa. (b) Must indicates mandatory action on the part of the investigator. (c) Shall or should indicates strongly recommended (but discretionary) action by the investigator. (d) Desirable indicates preferable action by the investigator. (e) An original report is the report made and filed by the investigator and may contain confidential material. An edited report is one cleared for general distribution and publication, and may have been edited or rewritten. It must not contain any confidential material. (f) Confidential information shall mean information not to be disclosed according to all existing laws of the land regarding personal information and its publication, as well as material deemed confidential by clauses of the CoP itself. (g) Publication includes UFO and other periodicals, newspapers, circulars, news media, books, and electronic media (e-mail, web sites, etc.) Code of Practice. This code of practice consists of three sections: Responsibility to the witness; Responsibility to the public; and Responsibility to Ufology. 1: - Responsibility to the Witness. 1.1 The identity of the witness to a UFO event must be deemed confidential and can not be disclosed - especially to media sources such as TV and newspapers - unless specific and recent consent is obtained from the witness Confidential material includes the name of the witness, home address or place of work, telephone numbers, or other data that may allow the identity of the witness to be ascertained. 1.2 The witness should be councilled about the potential consequences of the public disclosure of details such as those above. Their decision on disclosure or non disclosure must be regarded as binding. 1.3 Insofar as is practical, all interviews shall be by prior appointment. If a witness declines immediate assistance via an interview or appointment then their wishes must be accepted. 1.4 It is desirable that all interviews shall be conducted by two investigators, and in the event of the witness being a woman or minor (under 16 years of age) that one of those present is female. 1.5 All requests by the witness (or, in the case of a minor, a parent or other responsible person) for a third party to be present during an interview must be honoured. 1.6 If the witness refuses to co-operate in any way, or to meet another investigator, their decision must be accepted, the option for further contact resting with the witness. 1.7 An investigator must not enter or attempt to enter any private property without the permission of the owner, tenant (or occupier) or authorised agent. 1.8 Any damage to property caused by an investigator during the course of an investigation (for which the investigator admits liability) shall be made good by that investigator without the need to be asked to do so. 1.9 Specialised techniques, or equipment unfamiliar to the witness must not be used during the interview other than by clearly stated consent (which should be obtained in writing). The use of any such aid or aids shall be restricted to interviews conducted by fully qualified practitioners with a publicly acceptable mandate to use such methods. 1.10 The witness is entitled to be informed of the conclusions reached by the investigation if he or she so requests. 1.11 Due consideration should always be given to the health and welfare of the witness. If it is ever suspected this may suffer by continued investigation work must be suspended or abandoned forthwith. 1.12 UFOIN regards the technique of regression hypnosis to be wholly unsuitable during the investigation of a case . It must never be used. If a witness approaches and requests such a method the UFOIN investigator is obligated to explain the reasons for our decision not to employ the technique. They must acquaint the witness with the generally accepted psychological debate regarding its nature, possible long term effects - such as adaptation of memory - and our absolute ban upon its use. If the witness insists upon taking the matter further they should be directed not to any other Ufologist but to a medically qualified practioner. If the witness still then decides to proceed with regression hypnosis via another source the UFOIN investigation must be concluded. 2: - Responsibility to the public. 2.1 All investigators must co-operate fully with police and any other official body, particularly in circumstances which may affect national security or matters of life, death and injury to other persons. 2.2 If, during any investigation, a situation is encountered which is, or is liable to become, dangerous to the general public, or result in damage to property, the investigator must without delay notify the police or other responsible body and take all reasonable steps to protect public and property. 2.3 Investigators are reminded that they have no special privilege and may be required to disclose confidential information to a court of law. If such matters of jurisprudence intervene other clauses of the CoP are temporarily superceded. 2.4 UFOIN investigators must at all times weigh their responsibility to inform the public about UFOs against the often different requirements of the news media. The issuing of unsupported statements, expression of theories lacking in evidence and non objective speculations about cases should be refrained from. If an opportunity is taken to offer a rational perspective on the phenomenon via a public forum it should always be recalled that you are representing both UFOIN and scientific UFO research. You must strive to do so in a responsible manner. 2.5 The credibility of a witness or colleague should not be impugned in public unless the evidence and community interest provides an overwhelming mandate. You should always be prepared to justify this act, if necessary, to the rest of the UFOIN team. 3: - Responsibility to Ufology. 3.1 The free flow of information shall not be restricted for personal gain. UFOIN investigators will inform colleagues of their work in progress and allow its use upon publication by other responsible members of the UFO community. This is subject to the provision that these other parties reciprocate with due credit to source. UFOIN members may use information for their own purposes, e.g. to write articles and books, but must not inappropriately delay release of information to the UFO community to further such aims. 3.2 Full credit must always be given to colleagues and other sources whose work you draw upon, unless they have expressly requested not to be identified. 3.3 Interviews conducted during an investigation shall - where practicable - be recorded on audio tape, video tape or other recording device. However, if the use of a recorder is objected to by the witness (or other responsible person in the case of a minor) written documentation should be as thorough as circumstances allow. This should also be properly transcribed as soon as possible after the interview. 3.4 All case reports should indicate the persons present, their status, and their relationship to the witness/witnesses during any interviews. 3.5 Any information, confidential because of factors inherent within this code, must not be made available in the edited report. Only the edited report should be made available for external use. 3.6 The identity of a witness must be regarded as confidential and not included in the edited report unless the witness initiates self disclosure. If any doubt persists protection of the witness should override all other considerations. To fully protect witnesses in sensitive occupations, investigators may need to restrict from some parts of Ufology details of the time, place and other circumstances surrounding the incident - especially those that might allow the tracing of a witness who has required non disclosure of their identity. 3.7 The first priority of any investigation must be to allow a witness to tell their story without intervention. An investigator should not discuss personal theories regarding the case or the phenomenon with a witness during the course of the initial investigation. If such details are discussed at a later point they should be emphasised as a theory and supported with any objective evidence available. In the report to the UFO community personal theories regarding a witness or a case should be clearly indicated as such and separated from the main facts of the investigation. Declaration of the adoption of the Code of Practice. I, the undersigned, have read and understood the UFOIN Code of Practice and state that : 1. I will conform to its clauses and principles when engaged in UFO investigations or research; and 2. I understand that I may be required to give account to the rest of the UFOIN team should a breach of the Code be alleged for which I am held responsible. Signature: Date: Full name (printed):
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale - Randles From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:59:43 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:30:54 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale - Randles >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:19:21 -0400 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Re: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Tue, 187 Jul 2000 17:34:31 -0400 >>From: Liz Hammond<Lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Re: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:34:31 -0400 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: P-47: Re: John Carpenter's Sale >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>If you will put me in touch with some of the folks who set up >>the website, I will create and post an American version of it on >>the Internet. I don't have the $ for dot com addresses and the >>like, but I can post it onto the web via my personal account. Hi, UFOIN has a web site (www.ufoin.org.uk). The full text of our code of practice is on there. I haven't put this to the team but I am pretty sure we would be happy to create a page or pages to include such information - and I suggest that copies of the created information could appear on a few other web sites like this in countries around the world. I don't think there is a need to specially create a web address for this, but am not objecting in principle - just that it may not be necessary. All that really matters is that such information is out there and visible in sources people can easily access. So they can check it out whenever they choose. Best wishes, Jenny Randles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Another UFO Sighting In Cheshire, UK From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:41:56 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:25:41 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Another UFO Sighting In Cheshire, UK On or around July 14th, 2000, at approximately 9.00 pm, a Mrs VS (name on file) observed what she described as a 'rocket' shoot straight up into the sky. It went up in a straight line and made no noise. This object was reported as being brightly coloured and definitely not an aircraft. Mrs VS had wanted to report it to someone at the time but was unsure as to who to contact. Her daughter urged her to contact us after my piece earlier today on her local radio. -- Philip Mantle, 1 Woodhall Drive, Batley, West Yorkshire, England, WF17 7SW. Tele: 01924 444049. E-mail: pmquest@dial.pipex.com www.beyondroswell.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: World Slowing Down? From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:21:18 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:57:08 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: World Slowing Down? >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 22:46:54 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: World Slowing Down? >To: updates@sympatico.ca >'Lo! >I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on something >called the "Coriolis Effect"? >Someone recently claimed that the Earth can't be millions of >years old. They said that by backtracking the rate of decay in >the Earth's rotation, it would have been producing incredible >winds due to the "Coriolis Effect" millions of years ago via the >super fast speed of rotation. Or something like that... >Any takers? Roger, It's true that with a faster rate of rotation in the past, Earth's coriolis force would have been correspondingly greater. But the coriolis effect is merely the effect of Newton's laws of motion and inertia, valid in an inertial (non-rotating) frame of reference, being recast within a rotating frame of reference. It's still the force of the horizontal pressure-gradient that drives the winds, and the greater the rotation rate, the less, actually, is the strength of the (geostrophic) wind that tends to balance the pressure gradient. So your unnamed "someone" had this backwards. However, the stronger the coriolis force and rotation rate, the more nearly it balances the pressure-graident force, causing the winds to blow clockwise around high pressure regions and the reverse around low pressure, in the northern hemisphere. Thus, the balance between the two effects being stronger then means that accelerations of the large-scale winds were of somewhat lesser importance then. In any event, no matter how fast the planet rotates, its coriolis effect diminishes near the equator and vanishes at the equator. So there can be no geostrophic or "balanced" wind at the equator no matter how fast it were to try to blow there. And overall, it's the pressure-gradient force that drives the air motions, and that in turn is associated with horizontal differences in air temperature and its vertical distribution. But this topic does not do anything to further our understanding of the UFO phenomenon. Jim Deardorff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:44:11 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:00:21 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Velez >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:07:09 -0400 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:59:00 -0400 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:48:09 -0400 >>>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>>Subject: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Innocent until proven guilty Liz. The silence does say a lot, >>but it doesn't condemn anyone either. It's only been two weeks. >>Maybe if we all continue to ask them to make a public comment >>here on the List and by sending them private requests we'll >>eventually hear from a few of them. At least I hope so. 'Total >>silence' at this point, can only do them more harm than good. >>The more 'timely' their response the better. The better for >>ufology and, the future of abduction research. >Dear John: >You are correct. Innocent until proven guilty. I'm afraid I let >my upset feelings about all this get me a little too carried >away. Hi Liz, You're not alone kid. I was sick to my stomach the first week and just about every abductee I've spoken to has gone through the same cycle. First sad and sickened and then mad as hell. Now I'm up to "doing something" about it. Taking an active part in creating a _positive_ change will make you feel better. >You gave me a lot of help when I most needed it. Budd did the same for me when I most needed it. My way of repaying Budd and saying thank you is to do the same for others. If you want to thank me, you can do the same for someone else sometime. Pass it on sis! :) >You were brave enough to stick your neck out there for all of >us, and I know we number at least in the thousands. Surely it >wouldn't be fair if all those thousands left you to hang out >there alone. I firmly feel that _all_ abductees must stick >together and stay together when these sort of crisis arise. It >felt good tonight to finally start reading positive, supportive >responses. I'm sure it was more of a pleasure for you! Oh Liz, when I learned of the active dialog that was going on at Jan's Project 1947 and now here it not only lifted my spirits it almost completely restored my faith in humanity. It has been wonderful for me to see how many people really care about things like witness/abductee rights to privacy, anonymity, and the ethics and behavior of the researchers involved. After having been almost sabotaged, basically ignored, and Grippled to death, I was losing hope that anything positive would ever come of this. When EBK posted some of the messages from Project 1947 it was like an instant healing. I am so happy I was wrong! Some people do care. >In short, we must stay together. Not only is there safety and >strength in numbers, but there is understanding and acceptance >there, too. Let's just hope this ball continues to roll as it >has begun to. It seems like there is real momentum happening out >there and a glimmer of hope for change. What a wonderful thing >that would be, wouldn't it? Yes Liz, it would be "wonderful." The thing that has made me feel the most gratification is how united and 'singular' the voice of so many ufologists is ringing out on this issue. The best thing to come out of all this may be the unity and even the common outrage that this issue has engendered among so many of the participants of both lists. Does my tired heart _much_ good to see it all. Makes up for all the pettiness, distractions and nonsense that I've had to put up with the last couple of weeks (mostly from other abductees if you can believe that) while I was busy trying to haul this slab of beef up on the table for consideration by all. You only see posts from me occasionally on UpDates because I have always had a lot of respect for Errol and the List members. I try never to post unless I have something new, relevant or important to offer or to share. I wish that others would do the same. Again I thank you for all the support and help Liz. You were right on the money! This issue called for a "united front" on behalf of all abductees (putting any differences aside) and positive input and support. You were tuned in on that and doing your best to help all along. God bless your heart. Regards, John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Sighting: Ironton, Ohio - July 8 From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:27:16 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:03:19 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Sighting: Ironton, Ohio - July 8 Subject: UFO SIGHTING Location: Ironton, Ohio [Lawrence County] Date: July 8, 2000 - 5:32 a.m. On July 8, 2000, a security guard working in Ironton, Ohio sought to report a UFO sighting by means of E-mail notification. Through internet correspondence he furnished a telephone number for a follow-up interview. Enclosed below are the details of the sighting report. While on-duty at his place of employment near Third Street South [close to Route 52] in Ironton, Ohio at approximately 5:32 a.m. Saturday morning, July 8, 2000, the security officer sitting in a shack caught a glimpse of something in the corner of his eye. He then looked at an object which appeared from the clear western skies, initially thinking it to be a buzzard or a bird. Upon noticing that the object did not make maneuvers like a bird, the security guard walked out into the field to get a better look at it. The UFO, seen clearly in the daylight skies, was reportedly shaped like the sole of a shoe. The guard informed that the object appeared to be colored like rustic old iron, and looked like a shoebox-shaped object of some sort of old rusted metal or iron that was rounded at both ends. The rustic colored object made absolutely no noise as it continued overhead at an estimated 10 to 15,000 foot elevation, going perfectly straight. From his perspective, the security guard said the unidentified flying object was much larger than a routine aircraft seen at that same estimated height. The guard stressed, however, that this object seemed to be traveling much lower than conventional air traffic. "It was low enough that I should have heard some noise," he said. The security guard said that the UFO had a solid yellowish orange non blinking light around the exterior of it, best described as a a circle with neon lighting all around it. There were also two additional lights on the back of the object. The claimant works from 10 p.m. to 6 a.m. and has never previously seen a UFO. "I've always been skeptical about UFOs, this is the first time I'd ever seen anything like this," he said. During the time of the sighting, there was no traffic on the road. The object continued on its path to the east, headed toward Kenova, West Virginia. Foreman thought about calling the police, but elected not to and informed his sergeant instead. The claimant is a Mr. Claude Foreman, a Kentucky resident, and was interviewed by telephone on Tuesday, July 18, 2000. Mr. Foreman gave permission to release his name in this report, but understandably requested that the location of his employment not be referenced. This researcher views him as a trustworthy and reliable eyewitness. Filed: July 18, 2000 Kenny Young -- UFO Research http://home.fuse.net/ufo/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:01:10 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:09:10 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:12:54 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Hello All, >Much to his credit Budd has responded to the request for a >comment from him on this Carpenter issue quickly. This is a >forward of the note I have received from him. There is one >deletion (a paragraph) that was in the nature of a personal note >to me that Budd asked me to delete. Otherwise the note is as he >sent it. >You may respond on the list if you wish to, and I'm pretty sure >that Budd will get to read it. But, I know Budd and engaging in >dialog on Internet e-mail Lists is just not his cup of tea. >Don't expect 'on list' responses from him. >Here are Budd's comments on the Carpenter business. >Thank you for your timely response Budd. :) >John Velez >---------------------------------------------------------------- >Dear John, >In response to your E-mail about John Carpenter's sale, I have a >few comments. >I have always respected John and his work, and regard him as a >friend. Friend's, however, have been known to make mistakes. >John has obviously made one. Not being a fair-weather type of >friend, I still regard him with real affection. He has made >solid contributions to the field and helped a great many >abductees, and his error of judgement in the sale should be >judged in this context.. Hi Budd, Allow me to share to a few details with you that may alter your views on this issue. Before I get into a response, I just want to say that your genuine caring and personal integrity have never been in question here. With me, or on this List. (UpDates) "Others" interjected your name into this because I was the one that "blew the whistle" and because of our past (close) association. I responded as quickly and effectively as could to any accusations that my indictment of John Carpenter somehow reflected on you because of our past association. I believe I have successfully put that bit of nonsense to rest. This quick response from you to the issue at hand is consistent with the caring and consideration that I have always gotten from you. Thank you. You wrote: >I do not know the details of this sale to NIDS, but I am willing >to make a few guesses: >a) the price he was paid was probably so low that it was barely >worth while because of the time John undoubtedly had to spend >removing names and uidentifying features. from the files. My >guess is that this was no financial bonanza. It was a $100 bucks a pop Budd! 140 case files total. That's a neat $14,000 cash. If you don't consider 14 G's a 'financial bonanza' then I tip my hat to you. :) $14 grand is _plenty_ of incentive Budd. There are 'hit men' out there in the world that will kill another human being for you for less. >b.) Knowing John, I am certain that he thought he was aiding >research by allowing NIDS scientists to review his material. As >I said, it was a mistake not to have received permission first >from the clients involved, but I am certain that the sale was >not a crass move to make a quick buck. Transferring research info is not only acceptable, it is necessary. As long as it has been 'sanitized' (in the case of human subjects) for all identifying information that may compromise the privacy or anonymity of the witness. In at least one file that has been returned by Bob Bigelow to an abductee _none_ of the individuals personal information had been blacked out. If the 'sanitizing' process was only partial, it is completely _unacceptable._ That, is what this brouhaha is all about. It has nothing to do with the legitimate transfer of data between researchers. This is about a crass violation of trust, and the protection of the witnesses/subjects in question whose files were sold. When viewed from that perspective a whole different set of rules applies. It is noble of you to stand up for a long time friend and associate, but it isn't really relevant to the issue at hand. Again using the Mafia as an allegory; "This isn't personal, it's strictly business!" ;) >c) I have never sold any files, nor do I ever intend to, though >I was once asked to do so. I declined. Except for a few who "misinterpreted" my indigtment to include you because of past association, your own character and integrity have never been in question. You can thank one jamoke (an abductee no less!) in particular for introducing your name at all into these unsavory proceedings. From the beginning I have not ever mentioned your name in all this, or implied _any_ involvement on your part. But... I cannot control the 'out of control' imaginations of others. >d). The whole issue bears on the difficulties of a shared data >bank, such as you have often proposed. I have decided that it is >better to work alone and to share findings with close colleagues >and then to publish the results rather than set up a data bank. The 'databank' idea is not only a good one but a necessary one as well. The problem is not with the concept of a databank as much as one of witness protection and ethics. Again, it all depends on 'point of view' Budd. >With Boylan participating, for example? Ahhh, you mean the "unmentionable one!" On this island, the name of that spirit is taboo! "You suckem big ju-ju now Binks!" :) >I am currently working >on my fourth book, and have produced an embarrassing mass of >special reports, bulletins, articles, lectures and so forth on >the subject. Instead of an "embarrassing mass of special reports, bulletins, articles, lectures and so forth" this book should be your 'signature piece'! You should summarize all of your work somehow. Take the opportunity to express your own views and conclusions based on the 20+ years of research and work that you've done. I know that you never would have settled for an "embarrassing" anything. Go for the brass ring! >I think of you often, and wish you the very best. And remember >us to Margie, a generous, loving woman >>Sincerely, >Budd I think of you often too Budd. I'll be sure to pass your warm greeting on to *Margie. :) Regards, John Velez *my wife --JV
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Stacy From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:43:41 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:13:51 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Stacy >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:32:23 -0400 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >I recentley heard of a person who masquaraded as an 'abductee' >and gained entree to and became moderator of, what was to be a >very private, very confidential on-line support group. Not only >did it turn out that this supposed abductee was actually a >"researcher", who was _not_ an abductee. But, this person has >now written a book based in part on the information gained while >presenting theemselves as something they weren't. I believe this >person is now on the lecture curcuit flogging this book. <snip> Liz, Pardon me, but is this just a rumor on the grapevine, or do you have the title of the book at hand? I ask because I heard awhile back that someone (I think the name was Donna Basset) was supposed to be writing an expose based on her experiences with John Mack and/or one of his support groups. As far as I'm aware, however, no such book was ever published. Unless you know different. This is not in any way to put you on the spot, I'm just curious. If such a book exists, I would like to look at it. Thanks in advance, Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Kaeser From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:58:18 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:11:14 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Kaeser >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:06:55 -0400 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: MacLaine Opens Website >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:32:28 -0400 >>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >>Subject: Re: MacLaine Opens Website >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 17:59:30 -0700 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >>>Subject: Re: MacLaine Opens Website - Cuthbertson >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Shirley has indeed bought the "lite" version of ufology. >She is a Meier supporter. <snip> >Point: she doesn't want to hear about the "downside" of >ufology... abductions. (Contactees are OK.] >"Definition:" >Contactees...... have a good time (generally). >Abductees....... don't (generally) I agree with this assessment of Maclaine's UFO beliefs, but wonder if those abductees who view their experience in a positive light are really contactees as well. Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: Another UFO Sighting In Cheshire, UK - Blanton From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:23:47 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:16:37 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Another UFO Sighting In Cheshire, UK - Blanton >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:41:56 +0000 >From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com> >Subject: Another UFO Sighting In Cheshire >To: updates@sympatico.ca >On or around July 14th, 2000, at approximately 9.00 pm, a Mrs VS >(name on file) observed what she described as a 'rocket' shoot >straight up into the sky. It went up in a straight line and made >no noise. This object was reported as being brightly coloured >and definitely not an aircraft. >Mrs VS had wanted to report it to someone at the time but was >unsure as to who to contact. Her daughter urged her to contact >us after my piece earlier today on her local radio. Hi Phil, list, ebk! She wouldn't be anywhere near the River Mersey, eh? See: http://news6.thdo.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid%5F290000/290995.stm for BBC headline "Rocket man's dreams take off". Same day, although the times don't match. Regards, Terry
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:47:33 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:07:28 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:12:54 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Hello All, >Much to his credit Budd has responded to the request for a >comment from him on this Carpenter issue quickly. This is a >forward of the note I have received from him. There is one >deletion (a paragraph) that was in the nature of a personal note >to me that Budd asked me to delete. Otherwise the note is as he >sent it. >You may respond on the list if you wish to, and I'm pretty sure >that Budd will get to read it. But, I know Budd and engaging in >dialog on Internet e-mail Lists is just not his cup of tea. >Don't expect 'on list' responses from him. >Here are Budd's comments on the Carpenter business. >Thank you for your timely response Budd. :) >John Velez >---------------------------------------------------------------- >Dear John, >In response to your E-mail about John Carpenter's sale, I have a >few comments. >I have always respected John and his work, and regard him as a >friend. Friend's, however, have been known to make mistakes. >John has obviously made one. Not being a fair-weather type of >friend, I still regard him with real affection. He has made >solid contributions to the field and helped a great many >abductees, and his error of judgement in the sale should be >judged in this context.. >I do not know the details of this sale to NIDS, but I am willing >to make a few guesses: >a) the price he was paid was probably so low that it was barely >worth while because of the time John undoubtedly had to spend >removing names and uidentifying features. from the files. My >guess is that this was no financial bonanza. >b.) Knowing John, I am certain that he thought he was aiding >research by allowing NIDS scientists to review his material. As >I said, it was a mistake not to have received permission first >from the clients involved, but I am certain that the sale was >not a crass move to make a quick buck. >c) I have never sold any files, nor do I ever intend to, though >I was once asked to do so. I declined. >d). The whole issue bears on the difficulties of a shared data >bank, such as you have often proposed. I have decided that it is >better to work alone and to share findings with close colleagues >and then to publish the results rather than set up a data bank. >With Boylan participating, for example? I am currently working >on my fourth book, and have produced an embarrassing mass of >special reports, bulletins, articles, lectures and so forth on >the subject. >I think of you often, and wish you the very best. And remember >us to Margie, a generous, loving woman >Sincerely, >Budd I warmly thank Budd Hopkins for this sensible and human message. Please give my personal salutation to him. From what has been revealed, John Carpenter has made a mistake, not asking for permission to the persons concerned. But I would not "condemn" him, considering all the good work he has done. BTW, Kevin Randle said in his book that he had harmed Leah Haley, but she praised him warmly in her own book. So I suggest that we think twice. Let's hope this is just an accident which will not happen again. Gildas Bourdais
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:47:35 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:11:39 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Bourdais >Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:17:33 -0400 (EDT) >From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Bourdais >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:45:24 -0400 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >>Subject: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>The one thing the Woods have done, is brought to light that SOM >>1-01 came from Kirtland AFB. What honest, upstanding, honorable >>military man associated with Bill Moore also came from Kirtland? >Are we to understand that the answer to your question is Richard >Doty? >Do you mean that Master Sergeant Richard Doty was, presumably, >the author of SOM1-01 ? >Gildas Bourdais I repeat my question. I really would like an answer to it. Gildas Bourdais
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:22:46 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:27:55 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc - Mortellaro >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:44:50 -0400 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:44:18 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc - Weber >>To: updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:34:30 -0400 >>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>*Errol, This is for the Carpenter/Bigelow thread.> >>>From: Bill Weber <wweber1@sc.rr.com> >>>To: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>Subject: You can send this if you'd like >>>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:00:29 -0400 >>Sorry Bill, I do not mean to bring a non abductee into this >>argument, but no one as yet knows exactly what NIDS had in mind. >>And a word to the wise and the unwise. Think on this one for >>about a second or two. Then consider backing out, as the thought >>just happens to scare the crappola outa me. >>Snipped respectfully as it is my post >Dear Jim: >For myself, and I think for many others, Mr. Bigelow is not 'the >bad guy' here. He apparently requested to buy these files. The >answer was "yes", so he did. I'm sure that at no time did he >think he was doing wrong. I wonder if he would have bothered to >purchase them if knew what sort of tempest would be stirred up. >The person to be held accountable in all this is the person who >earned the trust of 140 abductees and then turned around and >sold them down the river for thirty pieces of silver. >One thing you are right about, Jim, we are not powerless. I >think the actions of the last few days proves it. Dear Liz, Listers and EBK, Several things. Just my own opinion of course. Budd Hopkins said it all. Never a bad word from him. I would never have expected less. I've been wrong about people. It's one of my faults. I admit it. But I was not wrong about him. Or Jeff Rense. Or EBK. Are you sure that Bigelow was not wrong? I am not so sure. But neither am I sure he is. I simply refuse to judge Bigelow or Carpenter. I wasn't there when the deal was made, the conditions (if any) laid down. How can I or anyone judge these people? All we can do is point to the damage done to the innocent. Us. Regarding power. Our power. You know something? People like us have for way too long, depended on _others_ to help us. We go out of our way to discuss our fearw with others, how terrible we are made to feel by unbelievers and those who would cause us pain. We seek out people who have professed to want to help us. In many ways they are there to help themselves more than us. This is a fine point, at least in my mind, Liz. Whilst true, many researchers wish to make a name, sell a book, make a few shekels on the circuit; many are still able to offer help to those in need. Folks such as you, me and the suffering souls who have stayed hidden away in their closets for so long. We are sometimes both aided by the selfishness of others. And maybe that is not so bad. Some of us were abused by those who were charged with caring and nurturing us. Our families. Some of us were luckier. But I've noticed that no matter how wonderful or how cruel our parents were in the face of our abduction experiences, we all share similar traits, phobias, addictive personalities, illnesses... etc., that it is amazing. OK. Here comes the point question again. What's the point? The point is, that we go into the study and catharsis of our abduction experiences in a weakened state; when we are _most_ vulnerable. We choose to bare our souls, reveal our innermost secrets and our most embarrassing experiences to people who tell us they want to help us. Most especially embarrassing (to me) are those experiences which involved sexuality at a very early age. Mine. I mean, how the hell do you or I get this out of our systems? Go to a shrink? Right. The psychologist or psychiatrist will apply his own rules and come to his or her own conclusions about why we suffer so. Usually, it involves some issue that never happened. Those to whom we go for understanding, other abductees, do not have the answers either. They are not professionals. They can listen and maybe advise. They may play the role of devil's advocate, there are many things _they_ can do. But more which we may do if we can become strong. The problem is, "What the hell _can_ we do to help ourselves?" We go into the research of our experiences in a weakened condition. Too many of us _stay_ in that weakened condition and to make matters worse, stay weak. We are intimidated by everyone. Everyone hurts us, most of the time it's jsut our weakness which allows us to perceive this. Paranoia sets in. We become even weaker. And the bottom line, others control us, in the same way as we perceive aliens have maintained control over us. We think there is nothing we can do about it when there is. If only we can gain strength on our own. I would like to see more people who perceive they have had such experiences to come out and admit it to the world. Some cannot and for obvious reasons. Like, they gotta put food on the table and pay the rent or the mortgage. There are, however, so many who can come out and attempt to help the others who cannot. We should not _depend_ on anyone but ourselves to get to the truth of our experiences. We should never hesitate talking about them. Since I began to to that, I must admit, I am no longer nearly as afraid or easily hurt by _anyone_! There is nothing anyone can do to hurt me more than the little slant-eyed, big headed sons of bitches already did their level best to do and guess what? We are still here aren't we? Still alive. Not terribly much worse for the experience. We can still function in this society. We can work, play, make love, give it and be the most empathtic people in this earth. That's who we are. Maybe that's why we are, what we are. Remember the commercial, "Never make 'em see you sweat!"? Well remember this. It's an old Sicilian expression. Never show your anger. The actual Sicilian words have such wonderfully full meaning. A lot like Yiddish. Never could translate the meaning. You just, "know it!" To boldly go where you have not gone before... admit to your experiences and never be ashamed or weakened by them. It ain't our fault that we perceive what we do. We never asked for these things to happen or for the memories to be in our minds. Shame is the last thing we should experience. And weak is the thing we should never again be. Because a weak abductee is one who can be intimidated, insulted, led along by the nose by people who may not really have _our_ best interests in mind and badly hurt by cruel and evil people. I believe that evil is the absence of empathy. People who can hurl invectives and hurt others are therefore evil in my book. Last, if more of us come out, then more of us can never again be threatened by extortionists. And there are many different types of extortionists. The ones who want money. The ones who want our strength, the ones who wish to keep us under their control. The reason to come out of the closet is simply, to place control back in _our_ hands, where it belongs. Then, no one can hurt you, not ever again. And you have been hurt. So have I. We can testify that this is not a good feeling. But when you are in control, it is a much better feeling. I relenquish control of me to no one. Since that decision, I've actually gotten taller. Jim Mortellaro
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Brigham From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:01:42 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:35:27 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Brigham >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:32:23 -0400 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>d). The whole issue bears on the difficulties of a shared data >>bank, such as you have often proposed. I have decided that it is >>better to work alone and to share findings with close colleagues >>and then to publish the results rather than set up a data bank. >>With Boylan participating, for example? I am currently working >>on my fourth book, and have produced an embarrassing mass of >>special reports, bulletins, articles, lectures and so forth on >>the subject. >Dear Budd: >Thank you so much for your timely response to this matter. I >think anyone who reads this post from Budd can easily see why >those who work with him universally say what a wonderful, caring >gentleman he is. As he says, he is no fair weather friend and is >not jumping the ship like some frightened rat. I admire you >greatley Budd, for coming out and publicly reaffirming your >feelings of friendship for John Carpenter, while not condoning >his current activities. Your comments went a long way towards >putting all this into perspective. >I also appreciate your thoughts on a shared data bank. After all >of this, and reading your explanation, I understand why one is >really not feasible. I would much rather have you share anything >you learned from me with the researchers who are close to you, >as I know who they are than with other people who, for whatever >reasons, have up and decided that they are 'researchers'. I >trust your judgement in this implicitley. Hi Liz, Budd, The idea of a public/shared database of course does have it's problems, but I do not see any better way to handle the matter. We all (I think) realize that there are people of differing ethics and objectivity involved with this field, but I do not think that even that is unsurmountable. I would even argue that any such database should accept cases from all 'investigators' as long as general guidlines are followed. However, primary investigators of each case should be identified (unless this in some way hampers experiencer anonymity, but I cannot forsee how it would). When someone decides to do something with the data (in terms of analysis, etc) it could be _their_ call to ignore contributions from the Hot Tub types, the generally unreliable, or unethical investigators. This choice, of course, would be noted in any reports or presentations of the analysis. Essentially, this would leave it up to those analyzing the materials to decide whose cases they feel to be unreliable. Unfortunately I think the idea of merely 'sharing' information with others on an investigator by investigator basis does present serious problems. I would also add that the idea of a database type project would help in standardizing and organizing information in a way which I doubt many investigators currently do. Having some method set up to present the information would have huge benefits, and I think is almost a neccessity if there is a desire to have the information looked at by a larger number of scientists. Not many are going to call every (or even 1) abduction investigator up on the phone and ask to drop by for a look at the files. And in any case, should it be up to each investigator to decide which scientist and what project should be allowed access to the data? Would this not lead to conflicts of interest in cases where an investigator does not care for opinions or motivations of a particular scientist? Of course, to reiterate, I obviously mean that only data censored for identifiying information should be shared at all anyway, but in that form, data should be shared with anyone who wishes to seriously evaluate or work with it, and not just a select few who may further one particular cause or theory, etc. >I recentley heard of a person who masquaraded as an 'abductee' >and gained entree to and became moderator of, what was to be a >very private, very confidential on-line support group. Not only >did it turn out that this supposed abductee was actually a >"researcher", who was _not_ an abductee. But, this person has >now written a book based in part on the information gained while >presenting theemselves as something they weren't. I believe this >person is now on the lecture curcuit flogging this book. As you describe it, this is, of course, unethical and unacceptable by any standards. I would like to see the idea of a code of conduct for the field gain widespread support. However, it would of course have to be fairly strict and 'lay down the law' in regards to some things which would probably not please everyone involved (hypnosis?), otherwise it just has a nice ring to it and wouldn't really do anything. the only way I could see it becoming widespread if it was supported by some of the more objective and scientific members of the field, and if being in compliance with it truly lends to credibility (didn't someone suggest a small 'seal' or something of that nature that could be used to indicate compliance? sounds like a decent idea). That's it from me. Sorry if it seems like I am not firing on all cylinders today. But hey, it's 120 with the heat index down here! ;) Best, Tim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Abductee Files/Our Children From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:32:11 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:41:04 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Abductee Files/Our Children Dear List Members, I came across some information [source follows]. In a March, 2000 interview with Alien Zoo John Carpenter states: "I had no idea [laughs] that I�d be swamped with 140 cases and all sorts of things that I could not expect. But I welcomed it, and was open to it, and learned a lot." It wasn't a select 140. It was the whole shabang. When asked about his involvement with MUFON expanding his work he states: "That was one way. I had written to Budd Hopkins, and he sent me cases." Looks like the cases that Budd sent to Carpenter are now in the hands of NIDS. Budd, did you black out the vitals on these files? Did you notify the abductees that their files were being transferred? If you didn't black out the vitals, have you found out from Carpenter or NIDS the status of the files you passed on to him? The article continues with "A key section of Carpenter�s talk centered around accounts given by child contactees. " "There was 5-year-old " "An 8-year-old boy " "A 3-year-old " How many more children are among the 140 cases sold to NIDS? Of those, how many children's names and vitals were not blacked out? What about the videos of these children and their identities being protected? Since we have no idea who has access to these children's files - these kid's lives - their future privacy and life choices are at risk. The worst part is, these children had no real choice in the matter. Parents, like me made a decision that they thought was right at the time only to find out later, that the decision to participate in abductee research may have potentially sold out their children's present and future privacy. Especially on behalf of these children, we need to demand some accountability from NIDS, MUFON, Budd, Carpenter and every other researcher that has been approached by NIDS or anybody else for abductee information. Researchers: Tell us you blackened out names and vitals - tell us you notified those individuals who's files you passed on. Tell us you're making calls _now_ to rectify any errors that may have happened in the past with these file transfers. Tell us you at least keep a record of who has what file. There is nothing that will stop you from being held accountable, including the best of intentions. If you haven't already - do the right thing now. If not for your own sake - do it for these children. Sincerely, Ann Mulvey [source: http://www.alienzoo.com/features/w/200003280001.html]
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: Roswell: Plan To Relocate UFO Museum Feared - Woods From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:34:21 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:45:29 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Roswell: Plan To Relocate UFO Museum Feared - Woods >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:50:02 +0200 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> >Subject: Roswell: Plan To Relocate UFO Museum Feared >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Plan to Relocate UFO Museum Feared >The Associated Press >ROSWELL - City business leaders fear a plan to move the >International UFO Museum and Research Center from downtown >Roswell to the city's outskirts would steer hundreds of >thousands of visitors away from downtown and devastate its >economy. Hey there List, Nothing profound, or even controversial (I hope) but I couldn't help notice the above item. When I visited Roswell for the 50th anniversary 3 years ago I remember the merchants in town were _very_ careful not to be insulting to the UFO tourists but you didn't need to be Kreskin to sense their heart wasn't always in it. >Hedricks estimated that 50 percent of the customers who >patronize Cowtown Boots are tourists - many of whom would not be >there without the presence of the UFO Museum. >Connie Amador, owner of Apache Gallery, said her business is >absolutely dependent upon the money the museum's visitors bring >in. >"We hardly get any town people - unless they have visitors with >them," she said. These merchant comments remind me of an incident when I served in the Canadian military during the 1970's. I was stationed at CFB Petawawa, in the Ottawa Valley, the nearest town is a small one, Pembroke. One time after a couple of clashes between townies and soldiers (usually in the town bar, fueled by alcohol) one town councilor climbed up on his hind legs and allowed that maybe those military types should be barred from Pembroke as they don't contribute to the economy and cause nothing but trouble. Our base commander, who I never thought of as bright, caught wind of those comments and ordered pay parade be held for the entire base, some 5,000 soldiers, and made arrangements so we were all paid in 5 dollar bills. You can guess the rest I'm sure. Merchants in Pembroke found nothing but 5 dollar bills in their tills. You could not find a twenty dollar bill in town, but everybody could change a 20 without a problem. At the next town council meeting the base commander appeared, explained the 5 dollar pay parade and then suggested council consider very carefully their previous talk of banning soldiers. The five dollar bills were the convincer. I guess this is a long winded way of saying I'm not surprised merchants in Roswell _now_ are talking about the impact a move by the museum would have. And I wouldn't be surprised if those same people helped block the museums past attempts to locate larger quarters in the downtown. I'm only guessing. But history does repeat itself. Maybe Roswell is about to learn a cash register filled with five dollar bills is infinitely better than one that's filled with air. Michael J. Woods The truth can STAY out there Send in a good FANTASY!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: World Slowing Down? - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:47:41 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:47:36 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: World Slowing Down? - Evans >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com> >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:21:18 -0700 >Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:57:08 -0400 >Subject: UpDate: Re: World Slowing Down? >>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 22:46:54 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: World Slowing Down? >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Previously, I had asked: >>I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on something >>called the "Coriolis Effect"? >>Someone recently claimed that the Earth can't be millions of >>years old. They said that by backtracking the rate of decay in >>the Earth's rotation, it would have been producing incredible >>winds due to the "Coriolis Effect" millions of years ago via the >>super fast speed of rotation. Or something like that... To which Jim replied: >It's true that with a faster rate of rotation in the past, >Earth's coriolis force would have been correspondingly greater. >But the coriolis effect is merely the effect of Newton's laws of >motion and inertia, valid in an inertial (non-rotating) frame of >reference, being recast within a rotating frame of reference. >It's still the force of the horizontal pressure-gradient that >drives the winds, and the greater the rotation rate, the less, >actually, is the strength of the (geostrophic) wind that tends >to balance the pressure gradient. So your unnamed "someone" had >this backwards. >However, the stronger the coriolis force and rotation rate, the >more nearly it balances the pressure-graident force, causing the >winds to blow clockwise around high pressure regions and the >reverse around low pressure, in the northern hemisphere. Thus, >the balance between the two effects being stronger then means >that accelerations of the large-scale winds were of somewhat >lesser importance then. >In any event, no matter how fast the planet rotates, its >coriolis effect diminishes near the equator and vanishes at the >equator. So there can be no geostrophic or "balanced" wind at >the equator no matter how fast it were to try to blow there. And >overall, it's the pressure-gradient force that drives the air >motions, and that in turn is associated with horizontal >differences in air temperature and its vertical distribution. >But this topic does not do anything to further our understanding >of the UFO phenomenon. Jim, Thanks for the info. Actually, I wanted to know if the winds were detrimentally higher millions of years ago than they are now. Since a great deal of creationism vs "alien intervention" depends on the earth being either a few thousand years old or millions (depending on which side one takes), I thought some knowledge of what the atmosphere and weather was like might be useful, that's all. I'm still formulating my opinion and this info could help, if answered. As you say, this topic does nothing to further our understanding of the UFO phenomenon. But then again, nothing discussed ever has. ;) thanks Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: World Slowing Down? - Woods From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:46:43 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:49:40 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: World Slowing Down? - Woods >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 22:46:54 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: World Slowing Down? >To: updates@sympatico.ca >I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on something >called the "Coriolis Effect"? >Someone recently claimed that the Earth can't be millions of >years old. They said that by backtracking the rate of decay in >the Earth's rotation, it would have been producing incredible >winds due to the "Coriolis Effect" millions of years ago via the >super fast speed of rotation. Or something like that... Hey Roger, No doubt the real whiz kids will answer soon and correctly, but if I'm not mistaken the Coriolis Effect is created by the rotation of the earth. But for a proper explanation, one even I could follow, link here. http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~dvandom/Edu/coriolis.html It even has pretty diagrams that kept me amused for hours! Michael J. Woods The truth can STAY out there Send in a good FANTASY!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:51:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:00:07 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale - Hammond >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:44:11 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:07:09 -0400 >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:59:00 -0400 >>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>Subject: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:48:09 -0400 >>>>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>>>Subject: Re: P-47: John Carpenter's Sale >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >I try never to post unless I have something new, relevant or >important to offer or to share. Dear John: This is why you have never seen me post before. I have been a subscriber for quite some time, though. I also don't want to 'take up space" while serious issues are being discussed. Like I said, I enjoy it all, but most of it is way over my head! >This issue called for a "united front" on >behalf of all abductees (putting any differences aside) and >positive input and support. > When it comes to abductee issues, who better to speak out than we who have "been there". This is, I believe, where many here are in way over their heads. I believe it is time for us to start being more militant in pressing for our rights, and the respect we are due as members of the UFO Community. Like it or not, we are here to stay. I feel that, believer or no, when we are in need, the rest of the community should stand up and be counted with us. It was very heartwarming to see that so many did. Thank you to all of you who put aside your feelings about this issue and stood up with us! Yours, Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:58:42 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:05:26 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Hammond >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:43:41 -0500 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:32:23 -0400 >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> ><snip> >>I recentley heard of a person who masquaraded as an 'abductee' >>and gained entree to and became moderator of, what was to be a >>very private, very confidential on-line support group. Not only >>did it turn out that this supposed abductee was actually a >>"researcher", who was _not_ an abductee. But, this person has >>now written a book based in part on the information gained while >>presenting theemselves as something they weren't. I believe this >>person is now on the lecture curcuit flogging this book. >Pardon me, but is this just a rumor on the grapevine, or do you >have the title of the book at hand? >I ask because I heard awhile back that someone (I think the name >was Donna Basset) was supposed to be writing an expose based on >her experiences with John Mack and/or one of his support groups. >As far as I'm aware, however, no such book was ever published. >Unless you know different. >This is not in any way to put you on the spot, I'm just curious. >If such a book exists, I would like to look at it. >Thanks in advance, Dennis: Such a book does exist. It has nothing to do with either John Mack or Donna Bassett. It has to do with Aliens interfering in human love relationships. A few others and I are busy little bees right now, fact checking, etc. When all my little duckies are lined up in a nice little row, I'll give you all the particulars, OK? Yours, Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 18 UpDate: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Reflections From: Tim Mathews <TMMatthews99@aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:31:00 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:49:50 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Reflections Dear All, Just thought I'd share a few thoughts on an exciting and breathless day of media madness here in the UK. Neither Eric, Phil Mantle nor I expected such a response to the press release we issued yesterday. As you will know, an object was seen and recorded on Sunday July 9th at approximately 1400. We have been careful to point out that, as yet, we can make no definitive statement about the nature of the very significant footage in our possession. Today some 150 (yes, 150) calls were received from around the world. Eric Morris and I did some 16 radio interviews, Eric appeared on a major regional news programme and we expect the footage to be the subject of a major national newspaper feature tomorrow morning. Phil Mantle weighed in with some great radio work showing that, to paraphrase one noted researcher, "we're taking Ufology forwards and in the right direction!" You should have seen the TV and newspaper people; they were camping on the doorstep of BUFOSC HQ in Northwich, Cheshire from 9am and fighting with each other for the exclusive rights. This indicates the great interest in things Ufological - perhaps we'd all been lulled into a false sense of security by the recent drop in the number of sightings... Eric and I had determined that we were no longer going to chase around after every Light In The Sky report but concentrate instead upon sightings where other corroboration could be found - video footage being an example. Our patience, and diligence, has been rewarded and our change of tactics seemingly successful thus far. We have built up contacts with military monitors and a host of others whose behind-the-scenes input has been vital. What interested us was when various journalists and TV people told us that other UFO "research" groups had shown little or no interest in either this or other sightings investigated by BUFOSC and Steve Mera's MAPIT group. One wonders why these others exist in the first place - this is not just a cheap comment but the lack of activity in some quarters is, frankly, alarming. Russ Callaghan of UFO Magazine (UK) was invited to see the footage on Sunday and it was subsequently offered to Graham Birdsall but they don't pay fees for footage these Yorkshiremen and so our intrepid video analyser returned empty-handed, more's the pity. Solutions to the footage mystery have been put forward and none appear to fit the bill. We bet each other �10 that somebody would cry "weather balloon" but we didn't expect it to be The Krypton Factor's very own Gordon Burns. Now working as the anchorman for BBC News North West, the former puzzler is an imposing figure but directed some polite and probing questions to a stressed and partly disbelieving Eric Morris. It was almost as if the press had been told that "something" odd had taken place up North.... We've contacted the CAA, the MOD, the local ice cream salesman and the weather balloonists and they don't seem to have anything to explain the footage. Apparently, some amateur scouse [Liverpool --ebk] scientist launched a rocket the other day but this is not what was captured on film. Having pointed out that, as investigators, our job is to try and identify the object, we are faced with the usual intransigence from our own side and a feeding frenzy from the National Union of Journalists. One Armchair Ufologist suggested at our packed meeting tonight at the Waterloo Community Centre in Runcorn, Cheshire, that "if the object is identified it will set Ufology back 10 years". I shot him down in flames, but it makes you wonder why we bother when supposed supporters who turn up for every meeting, lecture and UFO Conference adopt such a defeatist and cynical attitude. Maybe it's a British Disease. The job of investigators is to investigate, whatever the conclusion... no doubt our miserable friend would just sit at home with a copy of Above Top Secret and dream of a wet Sunday afternoon outside RAF Henlow... given half a chance. Amongst the 40 strong audience which crammed into the small BUFOSC meeting room tonight were several people who have witnessed high strangeness, missing time and close encounters. These were not Ufologists but members of the audience who had turned up "on spec" and one wonders exactly how many people have had paranormal experiences in their lives. I came away thinking that we've merely seen the tip of the iceberg and that probing the Mind of God may be rather more difficult than we expect. We presented evidence that something is in the air, that the government knows about it and has hard evidence for its existence. We also put forward some ideas and facts about military UFOs and, furthermore, advanced a suggestion that natural phenomena - plasmas, earthlights/Balls Of Light - are responsible for many an important "UFO" event. Like it or not, the public wants more. They don't buy the skeptic's line that there is either "nothing to investigate" or that all witnesses to UFO and related events are mad but they similarly require good evidence and proof that ET is already here. That is the challenge for Ufology.... One other thing that emerged is how people believe that UFOs and the Paranormal are almost one and the same and may share very similar causes...and effects. The footage will be shown at Steve Mera's September 16th Conference so I suggest you book it with him now; s_mera@yahoo.com Well, it's another day with the sharks tomorrow and 20 hours in.... Bye for now, A Tired Tim Matthews - Press Officer, British UFO Studies Centre.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 19 UpDate: Abductees [was: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc] From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:11:02 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:46:58 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Abductees [was: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc] >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:22:46 -0400 (EDT) >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:44:50 -0400 >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:44:18 -0400 (EDT) >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc - Weber >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:34:30 -0400 >>>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc >>>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>>From: Bill Weber <wweber1@sc.rr.com> >>>>To: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>>Subject: You can send this if you'd like >>>>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:00:29 -0400 <snip> >This is a fine point, at least in my mind, Liz. Whilst true, >many researchers wish to make a name, sell a book, make a few >shekels on the circuit; many are still able to offer help to >those in need. Folks such as you, me and the suffering souls who >have stayed hidden away in their closets for so long. We are >sometimes both aided by the selfishness of others. And maybe >that is not so bad. >Some of us were abused by those who were charged with caring and >nurturing us. Our families. Some of us were luckier. But I've >noticed that no matter how wonderful or how cruel our parents >were in the face of our abduction experiences, we all share >similar traits, phobias, addictive personalities, illnesses... >etc., that it is amazing. >OK. Here comes the point question again. What's the point? The >point is, that we go into the study and catharsis of our >abduction experiences in a weakened state; when we are _most_ >vulnerable. We choose to bare our souls, reveal our innermost >secrets and our most embarrassing experiences to people who tell >us they want to help us. Most especially embarrassing (to me) >are those experiences which involved sexuality at a very early >age. Mine. >The problem is, "What the hell _can_ we do to help ourselves?" >We go into the research of our experiences in a weakened >condition. Too many of us _stay_ in that weakened condition and >to make matters worse, stay weak. We are intimidated by >everyone. Everyone hurts us, most of the time it's jsut our >weakness which allows us to perceive this. Paranoia sets in. We >become even weaker. And the bottom line, others control us, in >the same way as we perceive aliens have maintained control over >us. We think there is nothing we can do about it when there is. >If only we can gain strength on our own. <snip> I hope you're speaking for yourself here. Please don't presume to speak for me. That last paragraph has nothing to do with me or who I am. I don't perceive that everyone is hurting me. In fact, having the strong empathic abilities that I know you also have, I am a very good judge of who is and is not a freind. My husband will be the first to tell you that nobody, not even him, controls me! :) Sure, I suffer from terrible, deep depressions when I wonder if others are against me. I know many other abductees who suffer the same. But that is mercifully breif and soon replaced by my natural will to live. I don't think one can behave as you've described for any length of time and survive. And I think that you and I and many abductees we know survive now because we don't behave this way. We are natural fighters. We allow no one to control us, perhaps because we have no control with "Them" Sure, there are many who behave as you describe, but I don't beleive they are the norm. I live every day in severe, constant, chronic pain. But I fight for myself every day by getting up, getting dressed, doing as much as I possibly can each given day. And I always, even on days when I am completely bedridden, find 'One" thing to be happy about. It doesn't have to be anything earth shaking. It can be something as simple as one of my dogs did something cute. This is how to survive, Jim. You do it one minute to one hour to one day and all over again the next. If I was to choose not to fight for myself, I soon would be the mess you have described. But I don't choose this, neither do any of the abductees I know well choose this. I'm talking about people battling serious illness on a daily basis. Chronic pain, fybromyalgia, stroke, heart conditions, Lupus the List goes on Jim and I don't have to tell you what's on it. Even with all this, and throw in the fear and insecurity caused by Abductions, these people are real fighters! I rarely hear anyone whining about their fate. Tell about what's happening in thier life, how they are feeling, yes. But whine about it? Throw up their hands in defeat? No, I really don't see much of that. Each, to a man (or woman) fights for themselves as I do. Otherwise, 'they've' won, haven't 'they'? They've robbed us then of everything that's worth while in this life. You asked "What the hell can we do for ourselves?" The answer is so simple. Love yourself as you are. Love your life as it is. Instead of dwelling on all the negatives, spend your day finding as much to be grateful for as you can. Yes, you may be ill, you may still be weak, but you will be in control of it all, and that's what matters most. No researcher can wave a magic wand over someone and 'make it all better". Feeling better about yourself and your life is your responsibility. Like wise for psychiatrists, therapists, hypnotists, etc. They may be able to prescribe something to help relieve your symptoms. They may offer a sympathetic ear to your troubles. But the truth is, you then have to go home and live with it all, alone. My prescription for all abductees? Take charge, love yourself, take care of yourself, find freinds who can relate to you. This is the way to be in control. >I would like to see more people who perceive they have had such >experiences to come out and admit it to the world. Some cannot >and for obvious reasons. Like, they gotta put food on the table >and pay the rent or the mortgage. There are, however, so many >who can come out and attempt to help the others who cannot. >We should not _depend_ on anyone but ourselves to get to the >truth of our experiences. We should never hesitate talking about >them. Since I began to to that, I must admit, I am no longer >nearly as afraid or easily hurt by _anyone_! >And weak is the thing we should never again be. >Because a weak abductee is one who can be intimidated, insulted, >led along by the nose by people who may not really have _our_ best >interests in mind and badly hurt by cruel and evil people. I believe >that evil is the absence of empathy. People who can hurl invectives >and hurt others are therefore evil in my book. Who knows what's hapening with someone to cause them to hurl invectives and such. Especially if it's another Abductee. We never know what someone else may have been put through to cause this sort of behaviour. Evil is just a bit too strong a word, I think. >Last, if more of us come out, then more of us can never again be >threatened by extortionists. And there are many different types >of extortionists. The ones who want money. The ones who want our >strength, the ones who wish to keep us under their control. >The reason to come out of the closet is simply, to place control >back in _our_ hands, where it belongs. Then, no one can hurt >you, not ever again. And you have been hurt. So have I. We can >testify that this is not a good feeling. But when you are in >control, it is a much better feeling. >I relenquish control of me to no one. Since that decision, I've >actually gotten taller. I couldn't agree with you on this more. The more of us who can come out (who are able) the better. I think it would give a lot of people a better idea of just how widespread this is! Yes, you are so correct! I have been hurt. By Them, my parents and some I should not have shared with. But, this needs to be put aside now. It is time to take advantage of the momentum that is going and work as a cohesive unit. There are, IMHO, many Abductee's out there with no support system and no idea where to turn. Maybe some will read this and reach out to become part of the Community. Yours, Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 19 UpDate: Re: Former Airliner Pilot Admits to UFO Sighting - From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:43:43 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:51:26 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Former Airliner Pilot Admits to UFO Sighting - >Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 09:30:59 -0400 >From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com> >Subject: Former Airliner Pilot Admits to UFO Sighting >To: updates@sympatico.ca >SOURCE: La Vanguardia Digital >DATE: 07.14.2000 >FORMER IBERIA COMMANDER SAYS: "I SAW A UFO" >by Pedro Madueo >"I'm 65 years old and flew for 40 years in the Air Force and t>hen for Iberia. I now run a piloting school. I was born in >Madrid, my father was a general in the Air Force. The day I saw >a UFO from my aircraft I wasn't able to sleep00I havent stopped >thinking about it all this time. I've just completed [my book] >"Destino Cielo" about all my years of piloting and my UFO >Encounter" >--Juan Lorenzo Torres: "It was on a collision course" -- The UFO >GUY <snip> >A: After reporting the sighting, Lt. Col Ugarte concluded that >what the co-pilot, engineer, flight attendant and I had seen was i>n fact Venus! >Q: Venus? >A: Yes, Venus. Venus was stuck to my plane's nose, I never >realized it! >Q: What made them say that? >A: I guess that their military culture finds it very >embarrassing not to have an explanation. Venus is as good an >answer as any. Venus. An example of : 'Prosaic Explanations: the Failure of UFO Skepticism'. The title of my lecture at the recent MUFON symposium. You can read the full paper with illustrations at brumac.8k.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 19 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:03:04 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:56:45 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:32:11 -0400 >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: updates@sympatico.ca >I came across some information [source follows]. >In a March, 2000 interview with Alien Zoo John Carpenter states: >"I had no idea [laughs] that I’d be swamped with 140 cases and >all sorts of things that I could not expect. But I welcomed it, >and was open to it, and learned a lot." >It wasn't a select 140. It was the whole shabang. >When asked about his involvement with MUFON expanding >his work he states: "That was one way..." Ann, MUFON members, Listers: A sad story, indeed. One has often heard the complaint over the years that Muffin's investigative files are a black hole: everything goes in but little if anything useful ever comes out. I guess that Carpenter's statement, which you have quoted, would mean that while he was a top MUFON official, overseeing investigations, he obtained these MUFON investigative files and sold them for personal gain? On the inside cover of my most recent issue of the MUFON UFO JOURNAL, it says, "MUFON's mission is the systematic collection and analysis of UFO data, with the ultimate goal of learning the origin and nature of the UFO phenomenon." Also, "The Mutual UFO Network, Inc. is exempt from Federal Income Tax under Section 501 (c) (3) of the Internal Revenue Code. MUFON is a publicly supported organization of the type described in Section 509 (a)(2). Donors may deduct contributions from their Federal Income Tax. Bequests, Legacies, devises, transfers, or gifts are also deductible for estate and gift purposes, provided they meet the applicable provisions of Sections 2055, 2106, and 2522 of the Internal Revenue Code. MUFON is a Texas nonprofit corporation." It can only be assumed that the Board of Directors of MUFON, or its officers, did not approve this transaction. If they did so, one can only assume that they were not aware of the personal financial stake that John Carpenter may have had in the matter. I hope that a responsible MUFON official sets the record straight on this matter, and that the organization, itself, was not somehow involved in this transaction, or a recipient of funds. This could be done to everyone's satisfaction with not only a public statement, but if appropriate, a notation on MUFON's annual Federal Income Tax Return and, if appropriate, their annual report to the appropriate Texas charitable agency, that an officer or official received remuneration for the disposition of MUFON property. If the organization has auditors, they should also be sure to have an appropriate footnote in their next letter and auditor's report, with the specific amount. This, I should think, would relieve us all of any misgivings about the Mutual UFO Network's role in this sorry matter. Clear skies, Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 19 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:13:59 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:58:15 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children Regarding: >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:32:11 -0400 >From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >Subject: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Ann wrote: >The article continues with "A key section of Carpenter's talk >centered around accounts given by child contactees. " >"There was 5-year-old " >"An 8-year-old boy " >"A 3-year-old " >How many more children are among the 140 cases sold to NIDS? Ann, There must obviously be a gross mistake here and we seriously aren't talking about children so young as 8 years old, let alone 3-year-olds, in any such context, whatsoever. If there are in fact children who have in any way been involved with 'alien abductions/contactee research', can someone please confirm precisely what they were asked to participate in, who the interviewers were and whether hypnosis was ever employed. James Easton. E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk www.ufoworld.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 19 UpDate: Abductee Files, Carpenter & NIDS - Thus Far From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 03:48:00 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:13:14 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Abductee Files, Carpenter & NIDS - Thus Far Forgive the repeat, but as I understand the whole scandal thus far from the many and varied posts not to mention private ones on this subject, it essentially boils down to the following. John Carpenter is on the Board of Directors of MUFON and over abduction research. Over the years of his research with abductee's John Carpenter is alleged to have collected at least 140 files loaded with various personal and medical records of abductee's including tapes and transcripts. Allegedly with his work with the MUFON abduction transcription project he presumably would have had full access to MUFON abductee files (besides his own), not to mention copies of files that other researchers may have sent him. For example in the alien zoo interview he is alleged to have made the claim that Budd Hopkins has sent "cases." According to the same Alien Zoo interview he worked on "collecting and analyzing details regarding more than 80 cases, including the backgrounds of his subjects." So its also possible that 80 cases were his "personally" with another 60 coming from outside sources, i.e. MUFON, and or other researchers. This kind of ties into another story being told privately that there may have been quite a number additional files sold/transferred to person/entity on the outside. In the final analysis it is possible that the publicly mentioned "140 files" may be the tip of the iceberg, or the entire iceberg depending on the story. It was alleged that JC had a cash flow problem and decided to peddle said files to NIDS. After the public eruption and people sent questions to NIDS we find out that it was Robert Bigelow who bought them not NIDS. Allegedly Walt Andrus received assurances from JC that the files had been redacted (blacked out) of personal information before they were sold. Supposedly after the public disclosure, NIDS/Bigelow has returned at least 7, or there about, files to the abductees, but allegedly, according to said abductees all the personal information was in full view. One would naturally conclude that if these stories are true, Walt and by default the MUFON board got stroked. Walt should be given credit for being forth right and honest about this, rather then attempting to bury or cover it up. It is likely that even though the original files got "returned" after the disclosure its quite possible/likely that copies of the files were made before returning them to the abductee's. Understandably the abductees (whose files were leaked) are very upset over all of this. Especially when they approached or were referred to a supposedly 'reputable researcher', connected to and a member of the board of a 'reputable UFO organization', in confidence, provided highly personal information and later find out that he allegedly had a cash flow problem, sold the files, and never bothered to ask, notify or get permission of the individuals involved. From the Bigelow/NIDS perspective I am sure they feel they made a legal business transaction and purchased what they believed (or was represented/alleged to them) to be JC's personal abductee files from JC's years of research. We are likely not going to get much more information, from anybody unless the abductee's decide to sue, witness's are deposed and documents are produced as part of a civil suit. Some idle questions, with equally idle answers. 1) When did JC inform Walt and the rest of the board? Likely answer: after the public eruption. 2) What is the MUFON board going to do, if anything at all? Since the matter is likely to end up in court, I would suspect we won't hear much more from the board probably on the advice of the MUFON attorney. If it doesn't go to court, I suspect that some of the party(s) involved may want to "forget" about the whole thing and hope it blows over and goes away. 3) Is the MUFON board planning to conduct an investigation and make a full and complete disclosure to the members? Likely answer: I would hope so, but it will be dependant on if it goes to court. 4) How many MUFON abductee case files did JC have access to as part of his MUFON work? Likely answer: probably the whole lot. 5) Do we have assurances that none of those were copied and passed on to anybody, including NIDS? Likely answer: Absolutely no official MUFON abductee files were transferred to anybody through JC. _But_ then again who knows what JC may have done with them if he had them in his possession. He claimed to Walt Andrus that the 140 files were redacted before being passed on to NIDS and allegedly they went out in full view. 6) What if anything will be said by the notables in Ufology and the various UFO publications? Likely answer: My suspicion (and I hope I am wrong) is many people will not want to comment or discuss the matter. In the UFO publications the story will be mentioned in passing, or not at all and the excuse for not covering the story will be "well it was all over the Internet, so it was old news..." I do predict that it will gain front page coverage in Phil Klass's news letter. I am sure there will be many other questions asked as this unfolds. As to JC personally, I remember when Bill Moore was one of the very public researchers on Roswell, addressing MUFON conferences and such. Then came his 1989 story that he was allegedly involved in a OSI/AF plot to discredit UFO researchers including as I recall Linda Howe and Paul Bennowitz. His "credibility" instantly plunged through the bottom (and he didn't sell any private files and such) and other then what he self-published, he was not doing the UFO lecture circuit anymore. With that memory in mind, its quite likely (whether you agreed with him or not) that JC's credibility has gone down a notch or two in the minds of many people. Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 19 UpDate: Re: Another UFO Sighting In Cheshire, UK - Mantle From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:00:37 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:16:11 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Another UFO Sighting In Cheshire, UK - Mantle >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:23:47 -0400 >From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> >Subject: Re: Another UFO Sighting In Cheshire, UK >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:41:56 +0000 >>From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com> >>Subject: Another UFO Sighting In Cheshire >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>On or around July 14th, 2000, at approximately 9.00 pm, a Mrs VS >>(name on file) observed what she described as a 'rocket' shoot >>straight up into the sky. It went up in a straight line and made >>no noise. This object was reported as being brightly coloured >>and definitely not an aircraft. >>Mrs VS had wanted to report it to someone at the time but was >>unsure as to who to contact. Her daughter urged her to contact >>us after my piece earlier today on her local radio. >Hi Phil, list, ebk! >She wouldn't be anywhere near the River Mersey, eh? See: >http://news6.thdo.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid%5F290000/290995.stm >for BBC headline "Rocket man's dreams take off". >Same day, although the times don't match. Cheshire is in the North-West of England, not too far from the river Mersey but not directly close to it. You are in the right general area though. All the best, Philip. -- Philip Mantle, 1 Woodhall Drive, Batley, West Yorkshire, England, WF17 7SW. Tele: 01924 444049. E-mail: pmquest@dial.pipex.com www.beyondroswell.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 19 UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Reflections - From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 07:57:50 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:28:03 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Reflections - >From: Tim Mathews <TMMatthews99@aol.com> >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:31:00 -0400 (EDT) >Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:49:50 -0400 >Subject: UpDate: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Reflections >We have been careful to point out that, as yet, we can make no >definitive statement about the nature of the very significant >footage in our possession. <snip> >Phil Mantle weighed in with some great radio work showing that, >to paraphrase one noted researcher, "we're taking Ufology >forwards and in the right direction!" <snip> >Russ Callaghan of UFO Magazine (UK) was invited to see the >footage on Sunday and it was subsequently offered to Graham >Birdsall but they don't pay fees for footage these Yorkshiremen >and so our intrepid video analyser returned empty-handed, more's >the pity. <snip> >The footage will be shown at Steve Mera's September 16th >Conference so I suggest you book it with him now; Hello, Tim! I think that it is terrific that you have the footage. However, do we have to pay to see it? If, as Philip suggests, you are "taking Ufology forwards and in the right direction", then why not share the images with this List? Why not post some still images or some AVI or Quicktime footage? No offense EBK, but this list seems to becoming more and more of a place to plug books, lecture dates and conferences and less and less about sharing info. Almost every time we begin to get to the meat of something, the discussion is abruptly interrupted by something like, "Check out my book if you want to know more." Still, I'm happy that new footage exists, even if it is being held for ransom. ;) Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 19 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:50:41 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:32:37 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Hammond >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:13:59 +0100 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:32:11 -0400 >>From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Abductee Files/Our Children >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Ann wrote: >>The article continues with "A key section of Carpenter's talk >>centered around accounts given by child contactees. " >>"There was 5-year-old " >>"An 8-year-old boy " >>"A 3-year-old " >>How many more children are among the 140 cases sold to NIDS? >There must obviously be a gross mistake here and we seriously >aren't talking about children so young as 8 years old, let alone >3-year-olds, in any such context, whatsoever. >If there are in fact children who have in any way been involved >with 'alien abductions/contactee research', can someone please >confirm precisely what they were asked to participate in, who >the interviewers were and whether hypnosis was ever employed. >James Easton. James: I am a little confused here. Are you questioning if there are any child abductees, or just questioning the use of child abductees in a reseaerch program? Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 19 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Rutkowski From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:25:21 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:43:47 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Rutkowski >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:13:59 +0100 >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:32:11 -0400 >>From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Abductee Files/Our Children >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>The article continues with "A key section of Carpenter's talk >>centered around accounts given by child contactees. " >>"There was 5-year-old " >>"An 8-year-old boy " >>"A 3-year-old " >>How many more children are among the 140 cases sold to NIDS? >Ann, >There must obviously be a gross mistake here and we seriously >aren't talking about children so young as 8 years old, let alone >3-year-olds, in any such context, whatsoever. >If there are in fact children who have in any way been involved >with 'alien abductions/contactee research', can someone please >confirm precisely what they were asked to participate in, who >the interviewers were and whether hypnosis was ever employed. Jim: The abduction of children by aliens is accepted as fact by most abduction "experts" and propagated among avid readers of the UFO genre and those listening with rapt attention to lectures about these claims. Of course, as I have pointed out in various publications, it doesn't seem logical to embrace these stories without much thought. One person who has noted children's abductions is John Mack: "A two-year-old boy that I interviewed said that he was taken into the sky by a man who bit his nose. A not-yet-three-year-old boy said that owls with big eyes (it is common for children to remember the alien beings disguised in animal forms) take him up to a ship in the sky, and he is afraid he will not be able to get back to his mother." Mack, John. (1992). Why the abduction phenomenon cannot be explained psychiatrically. PEER. Website: www.peer-mack.org/mit92.html But as I noted in my most recent book: "As for abductions occurring in children as young as three years old, I can only note that in my own experiences with three-year-old children, I have found they can come up with some really imaginative things. For example, when I asked my three-year-old what he had for lunch, I could easily convince him that he had a grilled-cheese sandwich, when he really had eaten spaghetti (and vice-versa). Sometimes, he even gave me a wrong answer without any prompting. So, I personally have to doubt whether or not the testimony of a young child in recalling an alien abduction is very accurate. Yet, Mack has described abduction experiences in even younger children." So, it's a matter of personal opinion, I suppose. Scientifically, I would have to doubt the veracity of children's abduction stories. But if Mack and Carpenter say so, it must be true, right? -- Nobody in particular
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 19 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Randles From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:50:38 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:47:30 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Randles >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:13:59 +0100 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:32:11 -0400 >>From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Abductee Files/Our Children >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>The article continues with "A key section of Carpenter's talk >>centered around accounts given by child contactees. " >>"There was 5-year-old " >>"An 8-year-old boy " >>"A 3-year-old " >>How many more children are among the 140 cases sold to NIDS? >Ann, >There must obviously be a gross mistake here and we seriously >aren't talking about children so young as 8 years old, let alone >3-year-olds, in any such context, whatsoever. >If there are in fact children who have in any way been involved >with 'alien abductions/contactee research', can someone please >confirm precisely what they were asked to participate in, who >the interviewers were and whether hypnosis was ever employed. Hi, I do know that in some instances children of a very young age have been reported by their parents as being involved in abduction cases. In the UK several instances have occurred in which hypnosis or similar investigation was suggested as follow up. I have never personally had anything to do with a case in which this has happened - and, as you know, both BUFORA and UFOIN have long voluntarily banned the use of regression hypnosis altogether - even with adults. In the famous Aveley case (Britains first investigated traditional abduction followed up in l977) the two adults were regressed but both young children were not and indeed were kept away from all the follow up investigation by mutual decision of the parents and investigators. But they did have some abduction like memories in their subconscious. On the other hand, in the Deeside encounters (around which my l981 book 'Alien Contact' was written) a hypnosis session was carried out by a newspaper before I got involved in the case. This was on a girl that was then about 12 years old - but no traditional abduction memory emerged. So far as I know this is the youngest witness regressed in the UK - although even since the hypnosis moratorium in the UK young teenagers (eg of 14 - 16 years) are still being regressed by other UK groups who are not signatories to the Code of Practice. One recently became a major book if I recall. I discuss some of the problems of this kind of dilemma for researchers in my 'Complete book of aliens and abductions' (published last year). I have certainly heard of US cases where abduction work of some kind has occurred with children even younger than 12 - although I don't think this was ever regression. Some it involves showing children 'cue cards' with various images on them (such as a clown, a grey and so on) and judging their reaction. Whilst I appreciate the sensitivity with which this is done and absolutely accept the sincerity of the researchers who do it, I do personally have grave doubts about working with children in such a way. But its just my fear of how we might be effecting, over the long term, the mental health of individuals whose personality is still being shaped. And I understand how difficult is the choice between doing something or nothing, because the research is clearly being done with tact and sympathy and no ill intent. Indeed it might not be creating any negative consequences and could even help. I am just concerned that we do not know enough about the long term consequences of any research in these areas to effectively 'experiment' with children - however unintentionally we do that - as in some respects all follow up is bound to be doing. Indeed I now regret writing that book 'Alien Contact' in l981 and if I was as aware of the facts of UFO life then as I am now I would not have created a book around the experiences of young children - even though I entered the case after the family had voluntarily placed the story into the public domain via the media. So I did not lead them astray, so to speak. But nor did I adequately think through the consequences of long term exposure. 20 years on one of those children (married, moved away and with a new name) still has to live with the problems I created by turning her story into a book. That has made me very aware of the risks we run and the questions we always need to ask in this kind of research. This is another tricky area that needs more thought. Because I do understand that children are having abduction like experiences and are in need of some help and guidance. But the responsibility of UFOlogists is greatly enhanced in these situations and the right thing is not easy to define. As you will see from our Code of Practice we have tried to write some protection of children into that, but it may need even further contemplation. Best wishes, Jenny Randles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 19 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:35:56 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:48:50 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:32:11 -0400 >From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >Subject: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >When asked about his involvement with MUFON expanding his work >he states: "That was one way. I had written to Budd Hopkins, and >he sent me cases." >Looks like the cases that Budd sent to Carpenter are now in the >hands of NIDS. Budd, did you black out the vitals on these >files? Did you notify the abductees that their files were being >transferred? If you didn't black out the vitals, have you found >out from Carpenter or NIDS the status of the files you passed on >to him? I've worked reasonably closely with Budd for a few years. I'd guess that Budd referred people to Carpenter after they phoned or wrote to him. He wouldn't have done any work with them, so he wouldn't have any files. He'd simply pass the letters and phone numbers on to Carpenter, who'd then contact the people, saying something like, "Budd Hopkins referred your call to me. He's not able to talk to everyone who contacts him, etc., etc., etc." So these wouldn't be cases Budd was already working on. John Carpenter would have been the first abduction investigator these people ended up talking to. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 19 UpDate: Cheshire, UK UFO Video - Press Release - 7-19-00 From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:08:13 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:52:27 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Cheshire, UK UFO Video - Press Release - 7-19-00 Dear All, Attached and copied below, today's press release on the developing situation. "BRITISH UFO STUDIES CENTRE PRESS RELEASE International interest and great excitement has been created as a result of the release of a video showing a UFO over Cheshire filmed by Karl Woods on Sunday 9th July at around 1345. The British UFO Studies Centre yesterday received some 150 calls from around the world and offers from newspapers and magazines for background and detailed articles. This has pushed the Centre into the public eye at a time when something of a UFO renaissance is taking place; sightings are coming in not only from around the country but internationally. The remarkable video footage taken over Cheshire has captured the imagination of the public and they are now demanding to know how anomalous phenomena, seemingly structured and under intelligent control, can operate within or near busy air lanes on approach to Manchester International airport, without the knowledge of either civilian or military Air Traffic Controllers. Privately, in conversation with BUFOSC representatives, these hard-working ATC men and women admit that they know of the existence of UFOs within restricted airspace. The British Ministry of Defence files kept at the Public Records Office in Kew, London, tell a similar story and indicate that UFO reports have led to concern at the highest levels of power. In fact, a document dated 24th June 1965, written in response to the visit of renowned Astronomer and "father of Ufology" Dr. J Allen Hynek, states that; "It is our policy to play down the subject of UFOs and to avoid attaching undue attention of publicity to it." The document goes onto state that, as a result, parliamentary interest in the subject had, at that time, been limited and calls for action muted. Nevertheless, in 1979, the Earl of Clancarty led a debate in the House of Lords on the subject. Military commanders in Britain and abroad have indicated that UFOs are of extreme defence significance. The history of research within the MOD has been one of evasion and deception according to BUFOSC's Eric Morris; "There are files detailing the development of secret military aircraft at the Public Records Office and plenty of material - available to the public - showing that Defence specialists routinely evaluated radar tapes and similar evidence of UFO activity." He also called for the release of all government files, including those created in recent years; "In Britain it takes 30 years before we are allowed to see files. So we can only read files for 1969 at the moment. The government is dedicated to openness but still the documents are hidden away. If, as Ministers state, UFOs are of no defence significance then why not make the files available and allow bona fide researchers like ourselves to access them?" Meanwhile, UFO reports are flooding in to the newly created National UFO Reporting Centre based at BUFOSC HQ in Northwich. The Centre encourages members of the public concerned about UFOs or who have a sighting or experience to report to come forward, in confidence, and speak to a researcher. The British UFO Studies Centre can be contacted as follows; BUFOSC, 78 Greenall Road, Northwich, Cheshire CW9 5RN. Tel; (01606) 330567 or 41617 Mobile; (07979) 261640 and (07944) 047195 Email; VMAUFO@cs.com and TMMatthews99@aol.com ENDS" Press Officer - Tim Matthews. -- Philip Mantle, 1 Woodhall Drive, Batley, West Yorkshire, England, WF17 7SW. Tele: 01924 444049. E-mail: pmquest@dial.pipex.com www.beyondroswell.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 19 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files, Carpenter & NIDS - Thus Far - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 15:01:17 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 18:04:24 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files, Carpenter & NIDS - Thus Far - Velez >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 03:48:00 -0400 (EDT) >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >Subject: Abductee Files, Carpenter & NIDS - Thus Far >To: updates@sympatico.ca Hi Robert, hi All, Robert wrote: >Forgive the repeat, but as I understand the whole scandal thus >far from the many and varied posts not to mention private ones >on this subject, it essentially boils down to the following. >John Carpenter is on the Board of Directors of MUFON and over >abduction research. Over the years of his research with >abductee's John Carpenter is alleged to have collected at least >140 files loaded with various personal and medical records of >abductee's including tapes and transcripts. >Allegedly with his work with the MUFON abduction transcription >project he presumably would have had full access to MUFON >abductee files (besides his own), not to mention copies of files >that other researchers may have sent him. For example in the >alien zoo interview he is alleged to have made the claim that >Budd Hopkins has sent "cases." I have a call in to Budd to find out if it's true or not that he transferred any cases to John or MUFON. I doubt it myself because I know _first-hand_ how careful Budd is about the abductees files. When I hear from him I will let everyone know whether he confirmed or denied this allegation from Carpenter. Budd has already said (very candidly) that he was made an offer to sell files and that he refused. It follows that he would withhold contributing files to anyone knowing that they could end up on the block for sale. I'm only guessing but; it may have been for that very reason that he refused to participate in the MUFON Databank project. The whole 5 or 6 years that I worked with him I would get on him about creating a 'database' among all the abduction researchers and he resisted the idea consistently. Maybe he knew something that I didn't at the time. Let's wait until we hear from Budd. This whole thing has got to be grating on the nerves of any honest/ethical researchers that have to respond to a barrage of questions about the shenanigans of a co-worker/associate. >So its also possible >that 80 cases were his "personally" with another 60 coming from >outside sources, i.e. MUFON, and or other researchers. It's bad enough that Carpenter did not inform his own clients that he was about to sell their files; if _any_ of those files were taken from the MUFON abduction databank project then Carpenter, MUFON, and Andrus are all in very deep Poodoo! Aside from the fact that those files were -donated- by other researchers, it either implicates MUFON directly in this business or it makes John Carpenter a common thief. The only way that Carpenter could have pilferred files from the abduction database was either with or without Walt Andrus's knowledge and blessing. We need to know which. As you mentioned Robert, "MUFON is a not for profit organization!" If Internal Revenue gets involved and it turns out that cash is being 'buried' somewhere, MUFON loses its 'non-profit status' and becomes liable for taxes and penalties owed on the amount. If not MUFON, then Mr.Carpenter has a lot of explaining to do. I hope he claimed the $14 grand as 'income' on his taxes that year. IRS will skin him alive. >This kind of ties into another story being told privately that >there may have been quite a number additional files >sold/transferred to person/entity on the outside. >In the final analysis it is possible that the publicly mentioned >"140 files" may be the tip of the iceberg, or the entire iceberg >depending on the story. It's a "tip" Robert. I haven't been able to say more because I have not been able to (had the time to) verify any of the other allegations I've been hearing. There's _more_ though. That's why we can't afford to release our grip on this issue just yet. There is 'more' to know, and 'others' that may need dealing with. If we're going to _clean_house_ then let's do it GI style and make sure we get all the refuse out. If we do a half-assed job with this, it'll be like we didn't do anything at all. It'll just be one similar story after the other as time marches on. I'm not real big on pissing into the wind. I have done my best (and more than most) to verify my information and report on this mess. If others don't follow up on it, it's just another 'thread' gone by and the Carpenters of the world all go on smiling and shaking hands and giving lectures and selling books. >It was alleged that JC had a cash flow problem and decided to >peddle said files to NIDS. After the public eruption and people >sent questions to NIDS we find out that it was Robert Bigelow >who bought them not NIDS. NIDS _is_ Bigelow and vice-versa. It's just 'legal schmeagle' ass-covering when the transaction is attributed to Bigelow. NIDS is just another name for Robert Bigelow. Without Mr. Bigelow there is no "NIDS." Semantics. Tell me, what does private citizen Bigelow do with all the data contained in the files? Analyze it himself? Or does he turn it over to the 'hired guns' (the top experts that he hired for NIDS specifically) to conduct analysis for him? Anyone who requires more than 2 seconds to figure that one out needs remedial classes. :) >One would naturally conclude that if these stories are true, Walt >and by default the MUFON board got stroked. Walt should be given >credit for being forth right and honest about this, rather then >attempting to bury or cover it up. He certainly didn't try to cover anything up when I spoke to him. He was (at first) very open and candid with me about it. He 'sounded' upset/disappointed over the this issue. I have no idea how innocent or guilty he may or may not be, but he isn't hiding or covering up anything. What his candor represents is open to individual interpretation. >It is likely that even though the original files got "returned" >after the disclosure its quite possible/likely that copies of >the files were made before returning them to the abductee's. You betcha. Back-up copies of the files must have been the first order of business upon receipt! After that, whatever researchers within NIDS were authorized to access them could probably do so right from their networked desktop computer. Copies? That's a no brainer! Of course they made copies. With every copy made the chances of wider and wider distribution becomes exponentially greater. It's been three years. Who knows 'how many' copies have been made? I submitted a videotape of some 'UFOs' to Sightings some years ago. It took me three months to recover my tape because the producer had taken it home! What's to have stopped some data entry clerk from making a disc or two of these "tales of alien encounters" and showing them off to close friends and associates for entertainment or curiosity? Even distributing copies themselves? That's why I'm so up in arms about all this. The violation to the privacy and anonymity of any abductee whose personal information may not have been blacked out, is potentially very great indeed. There but for the Grace of God go I or any number of other abductees. If Carpenter is telling the truth and Hopkins supplied him with files (which I doubt, but let's see) my file may be among the ones in Bigelow's/NIDS possession! I hope my file wasn't ever handed over to Carpenter, and then on to Bigelow/NIDS. If you think I'm pissed now, in the event of something like that I'd start a freaking Range War! >Understandably the abductees (whose files were leaked) are very >upset over all of this. Especially when they approached or were >referred to a supposedly 'reputable researcher', connected to >and a member of the board of a 'reputable UFO organization', in >confidence, provided highly personal information and later find >out that he allegedly had a cash flow problem, sold the files, >and never bothered to ask, notify or get permission of the >individuals involved. And that's all anyone need say about this sitution. This isn't about lynching John Carpenter or anyone else. It's about preventing something like this from ever happening again to another witness/abductee. > From the Bigelow/NIDS perspective I am sure they feel they made >a legal business transaction and purchased what they believed >(or was represented/alleged to them) to be JC's personal >abductee files from JC's years of research. Maybe so, but these are all grown-ups here who should have considered the ramifications of their actions. With the team of lawyers that Bigelow must have on retainer, I'm sure that 'someone' said 'something' to him about what a "grey area" he was stepping into. >We are likely not going to get much more information, from >anybody unless the abductee's decide to sue, witness's are >deposed and documents are produced as part of a civil suit. First they have to be notified! Everybody is jumping the gun here. In my response to Dr. Alexander on this list I asked him/Bigelow/NIDS to: 1. Notify the subjects that their files had been sold, and 2. Offer to return the files to anyone who requested them. Only twenty of the 140 abductees even know that this has happened to them! If we can get them notified, there will be no further need for discussion. I am absolutely certain that any number of them will band together and initiate a class action suit against John Carpenter. The problem is, they aren't even aware that they need to protect their own interests. We all need to concentrate on one thing at a time. First, let's make sure that these folks know that a 'potential' violation exists. Let's make sure that they all have an opportunity to choose for themselves whether they wish to pursue this matter legally. _Then_ we can all rally around and support _them_. We need to take practical steps (one at a time) so that something other than another lip generated wind storm, is not the only thing to come out of all this. These people need real help right now. If anyone wants to do some thing positive and practical we need to concentrate on getting these witnesses/abductees _informed_! Put pressure on Carpenter/NIDS/ Bigelow to do so immediately. We can't let up on the pressure until one of them does right by these folks and lets _them_ know what is happening. After that, we can discuss any aspect of this that anyone wishes to. In the meantime, 140 of our fellow creatures (most of whom don't even know it) are in need of our help and support. Please, let's stay focused on actually accomplishing something for them. Write to Carpenter, to Bigelow, to Alexander, to NIDS, anyone you have to, but make it unmistakably clear that the 'witnesses' involved need to be informed. Let the legal chips fall where they may. Period. Regards, John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 19 UpDate: Re: Abductees - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 15:22:25 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 18:09:28 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductees - Mortellaro >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:11:02 -0400 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Abductees [was: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc] >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:22:46 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:44:50 -0400 >>>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:44:18 -0400 (EDT) >>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>>>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc - Weber >>>>To: updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:34:30 -0400 >>>>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>>>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc >>>>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>>>From: Bill Weber <wweber1@sc.rr.com> >>>>>To: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>>>Subject: You can send this if you'd like >>>>>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:00:29 -0400 ><snip> >>This is a fine point, at least in my mind, Liz. Whilst true, >>many researchers wish to make a name, sell a book, make a few >>shekels on the circuit; many are still able to offer help to >>those in need. Folks such as you, me and the suffering souls who >>have stayed hidden away in their closets for so long. We are >>sometimes both aided by the selfishness of others. And maybe >>that is not so bad. >>Snapped and Snipped >I hope you're speaking for yourself here. Please don't presume >to speak for me. That last paragraph has nothing to do with me >or who I am. I don't perceive that everyone is hurting me. In >fact, having the strong empathic abilities that I know you also >have, I am a very good judge of who is and is not a freind. My >husband will be the first to tell you that nobody, not even him, >controls me! :) Dear Errol, Listers and those lurking in the noise, Liz' words should be emblazoned in platimum across the foreheads of everyone seeking information on what it's like to be a perceived abductee. My personal suggestion to researchers who are not aware, to look carefully at her post. Which is the main reason I post this response. >I live every day in severe, constant, chronic pain. >And I always, even on >days when I am completely bedridden, find 'One" thing to be >happy about. It doesn't have to be anything earth shaking. >This is how to survive, Jim. You do it one minute to one hour to >one day and all over again the next. >I'm talking about >people battling serious illness on a daily basis. Chronic pain, >fybromyalgia, stroke, heart conditions, Lupus the List goes on >Jim and I don't have to tell you what's on it. You forgot a few, but that's OK. IBS, headaches, phobias up the ying yang... etc. I speak for me. Almost always -- my opinions. This abduction phenom is like some immune disorders. It affects everyone in different ways. Sometimes the differences are not so subtle. I speak of a good many abductees I've met and spoken with. Present company excluded of course. I would not presume to do so with white hats. Which brings to mind another Dylan song. "Say, that's a cute hat, and a smile so herd to resist, but - what's a sweetheart like you, doin' in a dump like this?" The dump - Dr. Knapp, is not UpDates - It's the dump in which abductess are often placed. For their own good, of course. (as his tongue is planted firmly in his cheek) >I live every day in severe, constant, chronic pain. But I fight >for myself every day by getting up, getting dressed, doing as >much as I possibly can each given day. And I always, even on >days when I am completely bedridden, find 'One" thing to be >happy about. It doesn't have to be anything earth shaking. It >can be something as simple as one of my dogs did something cute. >This is how to survive, Jim. You do it one minute to one hour to >one day and all over again the next. Truth. Every word. Having been in chronic pain since February of 1998, I can sympathize. In the hands of pain management specialists, and more specialists you and I together couldn't imagine. All they did was cause physical dependence to pain killers. Followed by antidepressents, followed by suggestions to see a shrink. When I decided to take control, I stopped all the meds. ALL the meds. The pain is back. But it's wonderful to feel it. Whenever it comes, I remember the suffering the pain meds brought, on and off them. Then, I get on my knees (it's real hard getting back up at my age, eh?) and thank God I feel the pain. "I do have the time for the pain." >If I was to choose not to fight for myself, I soon would be the >mess you have described. But I don't choose this, neither do any >of the abductees I know well choose this. I'm talking about >people battling serious illness on a daily basis. Chronic pain, >fybromyalgia, stroke, heart conditions, Lupus the List goes on >Jim and I don't have to tell you what's on it. You get the Cupie Doll, Doll. No, I already know. Most of us already know. But a good many folks out there in the wilderness are completely -unaware_ of the ancillary syptoms of abduction. Not a forkina _clue_! >Even with all >this, and throw in the fear and insecurity caused by Abductions, >these people are real fighters! I rarely hear anyone whining >about their fate. Tell about what's happening in thier life, how >they are feeling, yes. But whine about it? Throw up their hands >in defeat? No, I really don't see much of that. >Each, to a man (or woman) fights for themselves as I do. >Otherwise, 'they've' won, haven't 'they'? They've robbed us then >of everything that's worth while in this life. You asked "What >the hell can we do for ourselves?" The answer is so simple. Love >yourself as you are. Love your life as it is. Instead of >dwelling on all the negatives, spend your day finding as much to >be grateful for as you can. Yes, you may be ill, you may still >be weak, but you will be in control of it all, and that's what >matters most. No researcher can wave a magic wand over someone >and 'make it all better". Feeling better about yourself and your >life is your responsibility. Like wise for psychiatrists, >therapists, hypnotists, etc. They may be able to prescribe >something to help relieve your symptoms. They may offer a >sympathetic ear to your troubles. But the truth is, you then >have to go home and live with it all, alone. >My prescription for all abductees? Take charge, love yourself, >take care of yourself, find freinds who can relate to you. This >is the way to be in control. Words of great wisdom. <snip> >Evil is just a bit too strong a word, I think. In my opinion, the absence of empathy is evil. When I practice a lack of empathy, and I do, I am practicing evil. However I do freely admit to this failing. It is rare. But it's there. >>Last, if more of us come out, then more of us can never again be >>threatened by extortionists. And there are many different types >>of extortionists. The ones who want money. The ones who want our >>strength, the ones who wish to keep us under their control. >>The reason to come out of the closet is simply, to place control >>back in _our_ hands, where it belongs. Then, no one can hurt >>you, not ever again. And you have been hurt. So have I. We can >>testify that this is not a good feeling. But when you are in >>control, it is a much better feeling. snip> >>I relinquish control of me to no one. Since that decision, I've >>actually gotten taller. >I couldn't agree with you on this more. The more of us who can >come out (who are able) the better. I think it would give a lot >of people a better idea of just how widespread this is! Yes, you >are so correct! I have been hurt. By Them, my parents and some I >should not have shared with. But, this needs to be put aside >now. It is time to take advantage of the momentum that is going >and work as a cohesive unit. There are, IMHO, many Abductee's >out there with no support system and no idea where to turn. >Maybe some will read this and reach out to become part of the >Community. I speak only for myself in these matters. I am disturbed when I meet people who do not have the means, the strength or even the knowledge of self help. I am especially disturbed by those who remain helpless and open to being hurt by others, more than what is normal for people. Whatever normal is. I remain weak. But stronger than before. I am at present, about as weak as Julius LaRossa after Godfrey announced (on the air) that "This is Julius' last appearance on my show!" Which is to say, "I am stronger than ever." Because I recognize my weaknesses. And I recognize the efforts of those who would keep me so. Every person who fights only for his or her paradigm, who denies the existence of any but his or her own pair... of dimes... who refuses to be a consistent aid to my digestion, or the digestion of my brothers and sisters in pain, anyone who speaks truth but practices an "absence of empathy," all these are anathema in my most humble opinion. And the only pain which I carry around with me which _never_ leaves me, is the pain inside which also requires me to feel so terribly bad for those who cannot seem to help causing it. How's that for an oxymoron? Best, Jim, "A day in the life of a ghoul" Mortellaro
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 19 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.coAbductee Files/Our Childrenm> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:27:21 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 19:28:47 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:13:59 +0100 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >There must obviously be a gross mistake here and we seriously >aren't talking about children so young as 8 years old, let alone >3-year-olds, in any such context, whatsoever. >If there are in fact children who have in any way been involved >with 'alien abductions/contactee research', can someone please >confirm precisely what they were asked to participate in, who >the interviewers were and whether hypnosis was ever employed. This is the second time James has revealed his ignorance of the abduction research he's so quick to deplore. The first time was when he hadn't heard of the Roper Poll, which is so well known that it's even been derided for years by skeptics like himself. Children have often been involved in abduction work. It may come as a surprise to James and perhaps to others, but children of abductees routinely -- and entirely on their own -- report what sound like abduction experiences. Or so many abductees have said. I heavily stress the words "entirely on their own." Nobody with any sense would approach a child, especially their own child, and start asking questions like, "Have you ever been abducted by aliens"? Or, "Have you ever had creatures with big black eyes come into your bedroom?" But it's a different story when a kid comes to you and says "Little doctors came to my room last night and took me to the sky." Or, "I saw monsters last night. It wasn't a dream." Or, "Bad people came to my room and made me go in their spaceship." Skeptics may widen their eyes in horror at all this, but I suggest they first talk to some of the many abductees who've reported such things from their own kids. The abductees, needless to say, are shocked. They haven't gone around talking about abductions in front of their young kids. And now the kids apparently are reporting what sound like abductions on their own. I've heard these stories from abductees myself. They're not exactly amusing. In one case, reported to me more or less out of the blue, someone who wasn't an abductee was reading Budd Hopkins's "Witnessed," one of the many abduction books with a picture of the standard alien on the cover. This person's four year-old granddaughter, if I'm remembering correctly, saw the book in his house, and immediately went off on it. "He's bad! He's bad! He's bad! the kid screamed, pointing at the alien. "Why is he bad?" "He comes to my room at night and takes me away." Skeptics, of course, will become variously horrified or derisive reading all this. They'll be sure the kids have been prompted in some way, or overheard discussions, or [fill in the standard skeptical stuff]. And sometimes all that could be true. On the other hand, it really won't do to approach abductions with the certainty that it's all got to be nonsense, before you've done any research. And if abductees' kids really are reporting this stuff, and have _not_ been prompted in any way, then someone really ought to look into it...which is all any responsible abduction investigator ever does. Once a kid reports these things, it's not unreasonable to ask "What did the monsters look like?" or "What did the bad people do to you?" or "How did they take you up to the sky" or "Why do you think this wasn't a dream?" Isn't that what any parents would do, quite apart from abductions, if their kids told them about a frightening experience? Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 19 UpDate: Re: Abductees - Beaver From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:36:56 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 19:34:15 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductees - Beaver >>>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:44:50 -0400 >>>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Sure, I suffer from terrible, deep depressions when I wonder if >others are against me. I know many other abductees who suffer >the same. I live every day in severe, constant, chronic pain. Dear Liz and All: I had, what I consider, a very special abductee come to me, some time ago, who was suffering from such debilitating (24 hour a day) back pain that she only got off her back to use the restroom. Her back muscles had almost totally atrophied from lack of use. After 1 regression/release hypnotherapy session she then had the back pain for only 1 hr. a day. After the second session she had no pain at all for a full 3 week period. The pain then returned. It is my belief that this occurred because she wouldn't/couldn't give up the money given to her by the state/feds for her dissability that she had been on for many years. The theory is that, for one to get better one must give up all benefits of ones maladies. I moved away from Houston and thus couldn't continue working with her to eliminate her pain permanently. One can look at such a case as a failure. Or one can say, for 75 bucks or so I got total relief from my 24 hour a day pain for almost a whole month without any medications. I think many would consider this a pretty good deal. My reasons for bringing this story up are multiple. 1) to point out that not all hypnotherapy is equal. Some, widely known techniques are better than others; _when_ they work!! My instructor says that this technique works about 1 in 3 cases. 2) to point out that there ARE people who can help such people get success for such problems with _self_ healing that hypnosis _is_. 3) to encourage you and any others to keep looking for such success through hypnotherapy. You may reply with something like, "I've tried x number of therapists/hypnotherapists and haven't gotten any results at all." And then I would reply with what my wife tells people we meet occasionally; that she had gone to a couple of other hypnotherapists who didn't really put her into that good of a trance state; then she met me and it was completely different when I put her under. I believe that this was because she trusted me more than the others; and not my own particular skills involved. Anyway, you may think I'm trying to toot my own horn here. What I'm really trying to do, in a long sort of way, is say that, if you haven't found success with any number of hypnotherapists, then _keep_ looking. There are a number of good ones out there. I am definitely partial to the regression/release technique. I could go on and give further corroboration here that such intractible issues _can_ be successfully dealt with, but I suspect that may not make a difference to anyone who has made up their minds one way or the other on this issue. I just wish to encourage any of you who haven't gotten success with the hypnotherapists you may have tried to keep looking for one who can help you use your OWN healing talents better than those you have tried up to now. >The answer is so simple. Love yourself as you are. Love your >life as it is. Actually, the answer, IMHO, is, to get your subconscious mind to let go of its attachments to all of the negative experiences, generally having occured in this particular incarnation (from my clients experience), which programmed it (the subconscious mind is also the body by the way) to believe that you are unworthy of love. One example I can cite, to prove my point here, is my first paying hypnotherapy client. He came to me for body tension. He would go out and get drunk and call me up for a session. His father had abused him quite a bit as a child. Because his conscious mind couldn't let go of control I was unable to use the regression/release technique taught to me by Ed Martin of Kingwood, Texas. Instead I had to only give him positive affirmations concerning self-love. At the end of each session I would ask him how the world was treating him. He wouldn't say a word, until the end of the fourth session. His reply then was that he felt better about life than he'd ever felt before, even though he was still unemployed. I never heard from him after this 4th session and fully believe he was cured of his problem. My point here is _not_ to state that I have some miracle cure; just the opposite. I am trying to say that when one is truly ready for healing that only such simple things as self love affirmations can do the trick completely. You are completely correct. In the end it's _all_ about Self-Love; nothing more!! Sincerely; Mike Beaver yoda@foxinternet.net http://web3.foxinternet.net/yoda/index.html ICQ # 15482206
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 19 UpDate: UFO Reports in Denver Rocky Mountain News From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:37:27 +0000 (GMT) Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 19:39:21 -0400 Subject: UpDate: UFO Reports in Denver Rocky Mountain News Source: Denver Rocky Mountain News http://insidedenver.com/johnson/0719johns.shtml Stig *** Bill Johnson July 19, 2000 About That UFO That I Didn't See... ** This is exactly what I was talking about. I am not crazy. All of your evidence to the contrary. They jump on you the minute you say UFO, even remotely suggest you might have seen one. They've jumped on me from England and France, from Florida to Alaska. It has been truly amazing. I don't mind the stares. It's the belly-flopping laughter I can't stand. "Agent Mulder, I presume!" That was funny for about a day. And the thing of it is, I never exactly said I saw a UFO. What I DID say was, I wouldn't report it if I did. When people with guts enough to come forward actually do, all hell breaks loose. My favorite response, so far: "I had the unfortunate occasion to see something 'suspicious' one night in 1996," writes Brian Freeman of Miami. "I called the police and asked if they knew of 'a plane flying low' over a valley near my home. "The police dispatcher then egged me on with 'are you reporting a UFO?' I told her I was if it would get the police out to check for a downed plane. That was the mistake of the year. "At the time I was a very well-known TV weatherman, and a local personality in central Pennsylvania. The next day, my own station's reporters were knocking on my door. What a mess. Take your own advice. Don't tell anyone. Certainly, don't call the police!" Sam Duletsky of St. Peters, Mo., says he saw one in the winter of 1965 while on his 6 a.m. paper route. It was a bright green light hovering west of town, about eight miles away. Three seconds after he saw it, it shot down "like a bullet" and disappeared. He didn't report it, but told his family. "They just looked at me strangely. They didn't say much about it after that." And then, there were the funny guys. I think William, who says he lives in Southern California, was tugging my chain. "My roommate and I just saw a green-yellowish triangular light on the horizon late last night! "I thought it was a missile test, one that was scheduled to happen Friday. Later I read the test failed. Maybe this was the one you saw!" A guy signing his letter BarrelRacer says he saw a UFO one night while in high school. He's 59 now. It was about 10 p.m., his parents were asleep, and he was in bed listening to the radio. Out the window, he saw two or three orange- red balls move across the sky very slowly. "It took one whole song for them to finally disappear!" he writes. He called the police and a nearby Air Force base. What did they tell him? It was jet exhaust. Period, he says. "Who knows anything, anyway?" Indeed. I think Nathan Kelderman, serving in the U.S. Coast Guard, has the proper perspective. He writes: "Hey, when my sister and I saw 11 triangles pass over our house in an hour, we did report it. "I don't care about the laugh factor. People are so scared of what others may think. It was the coolest thing I've ever seen, and I wouldn't have missed it for anything. "Our society is too focused on the mundane and the routine. Maybe if we would all just stop once in awhile and look up, we might be suprised." I received, I will tell you, an invitation shortly after the UFO column ran, to participate in a hunt for ghosts. I'm going. And if I do see one, believe me, I will not say a word. * Bill Johnson's column appears Sunday, Wednesday and Friday. Rockybj@aol.com or (303) 892-2763. � Denver Rocky Mountain News
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 19 UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Reflections - From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 00:05:06 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 19:41:15 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Reflections - >>Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 07:57:50 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Reflections >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Hello, Tim! >>I think that it is terrific that you have the footage. However, >>do we have to pay to see it? If, as Philip suggests, you are >>"taking Ufology forwards and in the right direction", then why >>not share the images with this List? Why not post some still >>images or some AVI or Quicktime footage? Hi, Does BUFOSC have a web site where this footage could be shown? I think it is the norm for most groups to have a web site these days. If not, then I second what Roger said, some .JPGs attached (If ebk is okay with this) for the list would be handy. And concerning the media coverage mentioned in Tim's address is this from London based media as well, as I haven't heard a hoot down here about it? And the mention of Quest International ( Birdsall / Callaghan) I was wondering will there be a spread in the next issue, seeming if it is a hot one, so to speak? Regards, Roy..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mulvey From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:09:00 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:16:12 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mulvey >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:32:11 -0400 >From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >Subject: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:35:56 -0700 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >When asked about his involvement with MUFON expanding his work >he states: "That was one way. I had written to Budd Hopkins, and >he sent me cases." >Looks like the cases that Budd sent to Carpenter are now in the >hands of NIDS. Budd, did you black out the vitals on these >files? Did you notify the abductees that their files were being >transferred? If you didn't black out the vitals, have you found >out from Carpenter or NIDS the status of the files you passed on >to him? >I've worked reasonably closely with Budd for a few years. I'd >guess that Budd referred people to Carpenter after they phoned >or wrote to him. He wouldn't have done any work with them, so he >wouldn't have any files. He'd simply pass the letters and phone >numbers on to Carpenter, who'd then contact the people, saying >something like, "Budd Hopkins referred your call to me. He's not >able to talk to everyone who contacts him, etc., etc., etc." So >these wouldn't be cases Budd was already working on. John >Carpenter would have been the first abduction investigator these >people ended up talking to. Thanks for offering this possibility. Since Carpenter singled out Budd in that article, and given Budd's recent response, I felt those questions had to be asked. 'Cases' and 'files' sound very similar in the context of this drama, but they may well be very different as you suggest. Ann
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Cecchini From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 20:21:52 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:14:52 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Cecchini >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:31:00 -0400 (EDT) >From: Tim Mathews <TMMatthews99@aol.com> >Subject: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Reflections >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Neither Eric, Phil Mantle nor I expected such a response to the >press release we issued yesterday. As you will know, an object >was seen and recorded on Sunday July 9th at approximately 1400. <snip> >We presented evidence that something is in the air, <snip> >Like it or not, the public wants more. Here I'll just add a "ditto" on top of what a few other people have already said about possibly getting a preview of some kind of your footage. >One other thing that emerged is how people believe that UFOs >and the Paranormal are almost one and the same and may share >very similar causes... and effects. They could... after all, as an investigator, you can't discount anything, right? At any rate, as I've admitted before, Vallee's Paranormal Hypothesis of UFOs interests me greatly, as does the ETH.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Lewis From: SMiles Lewis <elfis@austin.rr.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 18:22:40 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:26:07 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Lewis >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 07:57:50 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Reflections >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Tim Mathews <TMMatthews99@aol.com> >>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:31:00 -0400 (EDT) >>Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:49:50 -0400 >>Subject: UpDate: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Reflections >>We have been careful to point out that, as yet, we can make no >>definitive statement about the nature of the very significant >>footage in our possession. ><snip> >I think that it is terrific that you have the footage. However, >do we have to pay to see it? If, as Philip suggests, you are >"taking Ufology forwards and in the right direction", then why >not share the images with this List? Why not post some still >images or some AVI or Quicktime footage? >No offense EBK, but this list seems to becoming more and more of >a place to plug books, lecture dates and conferences and less >and less about sharing info. Almost every time we begin to get >to the meat of something, the discussion is abruptly interrupted >by something like, "Check out my book if you want to know more." >Still, I'm happy that new footage exists, even if it is being >held for ransom. ;) ---------- From: "Gordon Rutter" <gordon@rutter.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:15:15 +0100 To: <forteana@primenet.com> Subject: Latest UFO film The latest UFO footage "the best yet" so they say has just been shown on BBC Newsround, unfortunatley I was typing away and by the time it had registered in my brain that it was on it had essentially finished. However the Newsround homepage: http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround has a quick article but more usefully they have a realplayer version of the show, at the moment they are still playing yesterday's but that should soon change. Gordon
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Kippenberger From: Corky Kippenberger <KIPPENBERGER@cs.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:47:41 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:31:22 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Kippenberger Greg, Children do indeed tell voluntary accounts of abduction. Many of us have a history of such experience that date back to childhood ourselves. I would like to call upon Bigalow, Hopkins, Jacobs, Mack et. al. to come forth and vountarily offer _all_ copies of any files, videos or audio tapes that involve children. Parents have a right to feel safe with regard to their children's futures. Until this field is better regulated, these materials should be made available to these families without delay... If this fear continues, it will shut down those who might have come forward before this debacle occured. Any _caring_ researcher will understand this and do the right thing _immediately_. Corky Kippenberger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: John Carpenter [was: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children] From: Gary Hart <geehart@FRONTIERNET.NET> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 20:53:58 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:36:35 -0400 Subject: UpDate: John Carpenter [was: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children] >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:03:04 -0400 (EDT) >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Hi All! I'm now a member of this mail list and can respond to messages and directly to questions as I have all the evidence about Carpenter in my possession. I wrote the 47 page report with 231 pages of supporting documents that was delivered to John Schuessler on Saturday morning, July 15, just before the opening of the MUFON 2000 Symposium. >I guess that Carpenter's statement, which you have quoted, would >mean that while he was a top MUFON official, overseeing >investigations, he obtained these MUFON investigative files and >sold them for personal gain? _Yes_. No mention in the letters setting up or concluding the file transfer mentioned any sharing or use of the files for research purposes. _None_. John's quote in thanking Robert Bigelow for the transaction was to say "it paid some bills". >I hope that a responsible MUFON official sets the record >straight on this matter, and that the organization, itself, was >not somehow involved in this transaction, or a recipient of >funds. _Yes_, I hope John Schuessler and the other Ethics Review Committee members do a thorough check of the facts I presented and make a decisive and timely judgement. MUFON's Code of Ethics may need some changes. Certainly all officials need to sign a form to indicate them have read it and will conform to it. John did not follow _any_ part of the Ethics Code as published in the MUFON Field Investigators Manual as adopted in '95. His contention is that he acted as an amateur hobbyist and collected data for his own personal pleasure. This trivializes the abduction hypnosis process and opposes the wishes ALL abductees stated, some in taped statements, that no part of their session material would be made public. Period. Even though John supposedly acted as a hobbyist, MUFON requires a mental health professional or investigator working with a MHP perform hypnosis. No consent forms signed that I have been able to determine. Many MUFON people seize on the possibility that files can be sold blacked out. These files were prohibited from being sold at all even though Elizabeth's file was sold, recovered, and is seen as having nothing blacked out. Some MUFON officials may have been well aware of what was going on or simply did not look into allegations regarding abuctees' complaints of John's wrongdoing when first notified in '97. Gary Hart MO and IL Field Investigator
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mulvey From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:58:16 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:39:49 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mulvey >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:13:59 +0100 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:32:11 -0400 >>From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Abductee Files/Our Children >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Ann wrote: >The article continues with "A key section of Carpenter's talk >centered around accounts given by child contactees. " >"There was 5-year-old " >"An 8-year-old boy " >"A 3-year-old " >How many more children are among the 140 cases sold to NIDS? >There must obviously be a gross mistake here and we seriously >aren't talking about children so young as 8 years old, let alone >3-year-olds, in any such context, whatsoever. >If there are in fact children who have in any way been involved >with 'alien abductions/contactee research', can someone please >confirm precisely what they were asked to participate in, who >the interviewers were and whether hypnosis was ever employed.< Being so immersed in this subject for so long, it's easy to assume that folks interested in this field, from believers to skeptics, know that very often entire families, including children as young as three, are the subject of abduction studies. Jenny echos some of my concerns in working with children in this capacity and Greg depicted the very real upset a parent faces when on the receiving end of this issue. However, my immediate concern - and the concern of others on this list is that the 120 individuals be notified that their files have been sold 'unsanitized'. Some of those 120 people most definitely include children. Regardless of who or what you believe has victimized these children in the past. I'm sure you'll agree with me that these children don't deserve any further future victimization. Pressure needs to be put on Carpenter, NIDS and Bigelow to communicate with these families. This is something that Skeptics and Believers can do together - because it's the right thing to do for these kids. Ann
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files, Carpenter & NIDS - Thus Far - Hart From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:30:58 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:43:36 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files, Carpenter & NIDS - Thus Far - Hart >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 03:48:00 -0400 (EDT) >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >Subject: Abductee Files, Carpenter & NIDS - Thus Far >To: updates@sympatico.ca >One would naturally conclude that if these stories are true, Walt >and by default the MUFON board got stroked. Walt should be given >credit for being forth right and honest about this, rather then >attempting to bury or cover it up. Unfortunately, I had to bring this mess to MUFON's attention. Walt felt the file sale was OK. "They were his personal files." I don't know why this is "OK" as no one gave their approval nor was the abductee's approval sought. They were NOT his to sell. They (MUFON) were/are not happy this has been carried to their direct attention and fought this on several occasions. >It is likely that even though the original files got "returned" >after the disclosure its quite possible/likely that copies of >the files were made before returning them to the abductee's. Of course this most likely is true. Col. (Dr.) John (U.S. Army Intelligence) Alexander had full access to the files from the start. There are several other intelligence agents in NIDS, also. I expect our government now has copies of these detailed medical, psychological and hypnosis session files. >Understandably the abductees (whose files were leaked) are very >upset over all of this. >Especially when they approached or were >referred to a supposedly 'reputable researcher', connected to >and a member of the board of a 'reputable UFO organization', in >confidence, provided highly personal information and later find >out that he allegedly had a cash flow problem, sold the files, >and never bothered to ask, notify or get permission of the >individuals involved. Tremendously so!!! They feel betrayed by MUFON and practically the entire abduction research community as we do feel this is just the tip of the iceberg. One can scarcely imagine the damage that has been caused. It will set back abduction research many, many years. >From the Bigelow/NIDS perspective I am sure they feel they made >a legal business transaction and purchased what they believed >(or was represented/alleged to them) to be JC's personal >abductee files from JC's years of research. Wrong. Bigelow knew full well this was wrong to do. He saw no signature of approval from anyone nor did he seek this information. It was clear based on the file contents that this was privileged information. To say this and allow anyone to buy clearly unethically obtained files is to allow the power source or driving force to exist within the transaction. John was the catalyst but Robert was the energy behind the unethical transfer. >We are likely not going to get much more information, from >anybody unless the abductee's decide to sue, witness's are >deposed and documents are produced as part of a civil suit. I can and will answer detailed questions and will provide copies of the documents for all to read after MUFON is given a reasonable but short time to act. When you see the messages from John to others regarding this investigation, the file sale and his lawyer's note to the KC lawyer's group that did attempt to draw up a malpractice suit, you will see why this is now appropriate. Confidentiality can and will be maintained but we must do this to prevent this action from happening in the future. >Some idle questions, with equally idle answers. >1) When did JC inform Walt and the rest of the board? Walt in '97 and John Schuessler recently or so he claims. >2) What is the MUFON board going to do, if anything at all? >Since the matter is likely to end up in court, I would suspect >We won't hear much more from the board probably on the advice >of the MUFON attorney. If it doesn't go to court, I suspect that >some of the party(s) involved may want to "forget" about the whole >thing and hope it blows over and goes away. Wrong. This is too interesting and important to let die. You all know so little of the details and the rest will shock your senses and the revelation can be done in a respectful way. I promise. You and the general public _must_ be made aware of this so they are not further defrauded.. >3) Is the MUFON board planning to conduct an investigation and >make a full and complete disclosure to the members? We shall see. They HAVE to talk to me to do so. Period. >4) How many MUFON abductee case files did JC have access to as >part of his MUFON work? We don't know. He apparently sold Debbie Jordan Kauble's file and she was Hopkin's case. >5) Do we have assurances that none of those were copied and >passed on to anybody, including NIDS? NIDS people are employees of Robert Bigelow and they immediately had access to the files by John's admission. >6) What if anything will be said by the notables in Ufology and >the various UFO publications? We shall see. this case is the proverbial Truth Test. All will come down on one side or the other and I will see who I will work with in the future. Keep watching. >Likely answer: My suspicion (and I hope I am wrong) is many >people will not want to comment or discuss the matter. In the >UFO publications the story will be mentioned in passing, or not >at all and the excuse for not covering the story will be "well >it was all over the Internet, so it was old news..." We must all talk openly about these Ethics issues. Do any of you know how MUFON's otherwise excellent Code of Ethics reads? Read it. It is now a requirement for all in Ufology!!! MUFON must be made to understand that all it's officers must follow it as they do not now do so. Personal rights of hypnosis subjects and abductees MUST be respected and must come FIRST and the needs of investigators and researchers SECOND. ~Gary Hart
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Brigham From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:48:03 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:47:20 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Brigham >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:27:21 -0700 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> *snip* >Children have often been involved in abduction work. It may come >as a surprise to James and perhaps to others, but children of >abductees routinely -- and entirely on their own -- report what >sound like abduction experiences. Or so many abductees have >said. >I heavily stress the words "entirely on their own." Nobody with >any sense would approach a child, especially their own child, >and start asking questions like, "Have you ever been abducted by >aliens"? Or, "Have you ever had creatures with big black eyes >come into your bedroom?" >But it's a different story when a kid comes to you and says >"Little doctors came to my room last night and took me to the >sky." Or, "I saw monsters last night. It wasn't a dream." Or, >"Bad people came to my room and made me go in their spaceship." >Skeptics may widen their eyes in horror at all this, but I >suggest they first talk to some of the many abductees who've >reported such things from their own kids. The abductees, >needless to say, are shocked. They haven't gone around talking >about abductions in front of their young kids. And now the kids >apparently are reporting what sound like abductions on their >own. >I've heard these stories from abductees myself. They're not >exactly amusing. In one case, reported to me more or less out of >the blue, someone who wasn't an abductee was reading Budd >Hopkins's "Witnessed," one of the many abduction books with a >picture of the standard alien on the cover. This person's four >year-old granddaughter, if I'm remembering correctly, saw the >book in his house, and immediately went off on it. "He's bad! >He's bad! He's bad! the kid screamed, pointing at the alien. >"Why is he bad?" "He comes to my room at night and takes me >away." >Skeptics, of course, will become variously horrified or derisive >reading all this. They'll be sure the kids have been prompted in >some way, or overheard discussions, or [fill in the standard >skeptical stuff]. And sometimes all that could be true. On the >other hand, it really won't do to approach abductions with the >certainty that it's all got to be nonsense, before you've done >any research. And if abductees' kids really are reporting this >stuff, and have _not_ been prompted in any way, then someone >really ought to look into it...which is all any responsible >abduction investigator ever does. Once a kid reports these >things, it's not unreasonable to ask "What did the monsters look >like?" or "What did the bad people do to you?" or "How did they >take you up to the sky" or "Why do you think this wasn't a >dream?" >Isn't that what any parents would do, quite apart from >abductions, if their kids told them about a frightening >experience? Hi Greg, I value your opinions and thoughtful comments, but I strongly differ with your opinion that it's acceptable to have 'abduction investigators' dealing with children in any way. You mentioned careful questioning by parents, and of course we would expect that, but in regards to whether or not outside parties calling themselves investigators should do the same or more: I think we can agree that people like Budd are probably extra careful when/if dealing with children, and the effects of that are debatable, but the larger problem as I see it, is that not everyone IS that extra careful. I have been at UFO conferences and seen folks, fresh out of a mail-order hypnotherapy course, offering to 'regress' anyone who wants to 'remember their experiences' (no exaggeration). Is it a big leap to imagine these self-styled investigators interviewing kids, or even hypnotizing them? My point is merely that this, just as is the case with hypnosis on possible adult experiencers, sets a horrible precedent when done by an 'abduction researcher,' which is a title anyone can call themselves on a whim. "If 'UFO Abduction Author X' can interview children or hypnotize folks, and he has no formal training, then why can't I? Besides, the skeptics are just trying to slam us with all this talk of training and careful methodology. I'm a nice guy, that's all that matters." If people voluntarily get involved with a 'researcher' who sells their personal information or in some way screws them up, well that's bad enough. To even think about bringing kids into a situation that could even _possibly_ have long lasting negative effects is a whole 'nother thing. I am trying to slack off posting to the list unless factual information or projects come up which deserve direct comment, rather than just debating issues or theories - to steal a line from David Byrne, "why is the people who talk the most apparently have the least to say?" But if I never post to the list again, I have to throw in my 2.5 cents in saying that I am very much against the idea of involving children in this mess any more than they have to be, or may already be. Regarding: >Skeptics, of course, will become variously horrified or derisive >reading all this. I think everyone should be horrified by this, regardless of whether you think the enemy of the children are the 'aliens' or the 'investigators.' This is bad news for the kids who didn't ask to be involved in this mess, any way you look at it. We are both concerned with making sure children do not suffer negative consequences from any of this (any more than they have to at least, if they are really having their own experiences), I am merely saying we can not be too careful, and that we should err on the side of extreme caution, even if it slows down research. That's it outta me. Take care, Tim "Real work is completed in silence, striking a chord in the minds of very few." Jung "If you think you know what's going on, you're probably full of shit." Pope Bob XXIII
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Re: Abductees - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:50:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:51:11 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductees - Hammond >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 15:22:25 -0400 (EDT) >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Abductees >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:11:02 -0400 >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Abductees [was: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc] >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:22:46 -0400 (EDT) >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:44:50 -0400 >>>>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>>>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:44:18 -0400 (EDT) >>>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>>>>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc - Weber >>>>>To: updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>>>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:34:30 -0400 >>>>>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>>>>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Bigelow/etc >>>>>>To: updates@sympatico.ca > >>>>>>From: Bill Weber <wweber1@sc.rr.com> >>>>>>To: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>>>>Subject: You can send this if you'd like >>>>>>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:00:29 -0400 >Liz' words should be emblazoned in platimum across the foreheads >of everyone seeking information on what it's like to be a >perceived abductee. My personal suggestion to researchers who >are not aware, to look carefully at her post. Which is the main >reason I post this response. Dear Jim: First off, that comment about not speaking for me should have been a bit less stark. It happened that I opened your post at a bad time, and had gotten in a nasty mood. Sorry if you felt I took it out on you. This is just the type of dialogue I think is needed to help non-abductees and abductees who have no support system. Many skeptics cannot grasp the number of people involved in this. While I don't have anything like firm figures, I would put it in the ten's of thousands, wouldn't you? Also, I wrote with several 'skeptics' a few weeks ago and they were really taken aback when I started to talk about the many health issues "older" abductees are suffering. They had NO idea that anything like this was occuring. About 2 months ago I tried to talk about this issue to one of the "Big Researchers". He obviously didn't want to hear anything I had to say. His attitude was that it is not as wide spread as I think it is. When I tried to tell him he was wrong, he quickly found a reason to leave my company. :) This sort of thing really galls me. I beleive some researchers are basically picking one from column a and one from column B and anything that doesn't fit right in there is just discarded. Truth us, _we_ know better than any of them what's really happening. Let's face it, Jim, we are the ones who actualy experience this. Yet, some researchers (Budd, excluded) act as if they are the "star" in all this. Giving the lectures, writing the books etc. Well, while they're busy doing all that , we're busy living the life. Who should know better than who? The bottom line is that there is a very large number of people out there, who consider themselves part of the UFO Community, who are extremely ill. Many are too disabled to work, many have lost a large portion of quality of life. Not to mention the Doctor Bills, Prescriptions, etc. It has become very apparent that this information is only going to reach the rest of the UFO Community if we bring it to them. Likewise, the general public. And if this doesn't fit into the neat little theories that each researcher has married himself/herself to, well, that's just too bad, isn't it? The truth is the truth. In an area where the truth is so damn difficult to come by, we can at least bring this one out. The plain, ugly truth is that we are a very sick bunch. And I don't mean as in Mental Cases! In the next day or two I will network with the other abductees I know and find out just what they have problems with, health wise (no-names, etc.) just info on illnesses. If you could do the same, Jim, we could put these two lists together and really give people an eyeful, right?! I'll contact you tomorrow, off list and we can talk about it then, OK? Truth is, without that knowledge, a big piece of the abduction puzzle is missing. Maybe a lot of people just can't come out right now, Jim. These are the people who really need others to speak out for them. To let the rest of the world know what's really happening. So they can get this new piece of the puzzle and see where it fits in with their personal theory. Now there is another thread going about child abductees. While I am 100% against regressing a child abductee, I also think that it must be dealt with, too. Some of these very young kids are already showing symptoms of PTAD (Post Traumatic Abduction Disorder) Refusing to go to bed, forcing themselves to stay awake, insisting on sleeping with the parents, becoming frantic if the parents try to go out without him/her. Without making abduction a focal issue, these children are badley in need of help so they can have some peace and live as close to a normal childhood as possible. I can relate to all of that as I was once a child abductee myself. My earliest memory I was about 3 years old. This is not something that came up during hypnosis. It's a memoey I've had for my entire life. Likewise all the incidents of Missing Time, Police being called out to find me. Not once but many times. Waking up every day with a nosebleed. Having a strange attraction towards anything to do with "Little People" Leprechauns, fairies, The Hobbitt, Water Babies, these all held a strange fascination tinged with fear. >>I live every day in severe, constant, chronic pain. >>This is how to survive, Jim. You do it one minute to one hour to >>one day and all over again the next. >You forgot a few, but that's OK. IBS, headaches, phobias up the >ying yang... etc. >I speak for me. Almost always -- my opinions. This abduction >phenom is like some immune disorders. It affects everyone in >different ways. Sometimes the differences are not so subtle. I >speak of a good many abductees I've met and spoken with. >I remain weak. But stronger than before. I am at present, about >as weak as Julius LaRossa after Godfrey announced (on the air) >that "This is Julius' last appearance on my show!" Which is to >say, "I am stronger than ever." Because I recognize my >weaknesses. And I recognize the efforts of those who would keep >me so. Every person who fights only for his or her paradigm, who >denies the existence of any but his or her own pair... of >dimes... who refuses to be a consistent aid to my digestion, or >the digestion of my brothers and sisters in pain, anyone who >speaks truth but practices an "absence of empathy," all these >are anathema in my most humble opinion. >And the only pain which I carry around with me which _never_ >leaves me, is the pain inside which also requires me to feel so >terribly bad for those who cannot seem to help causing it. >How's that for an oxymoron? So Jim, if you don't mind, I'll contact you and we'll put our heads together on this. I think everyone having a more full picture of the reality of all this is going to be helpful for us all. Abductees, skeptics, etc. There is so much more to this than : "The greys show up in your bedroom, float you out to a spacship, stick things where the sun don't shine, float you back to bed and tuck you in". That's just a _fraction_ of what goes on! As well as these health issues. We aren't talking a few sinus headaches. These are serious, life altering, usually painfull conditions. And only a fraction of the Community even knows it's happening. It's time to do something to change all that. Doing things like this is how you empower yourself. Taking care of yourself and your own, right? Hugs, Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: NIDS Discussion Forum From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:50:55 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:53:15 -0400 Subject: UpDate: NIDS Discussion Forum Dear List Members, I just posted a message on the NIDS Discussion Forum. Regardless of your position on abductions, other bizarre aspects of this field, or me<g>, please back me up. The title of my message is: 120 Families Need to Know http://www.nidsci.org/resources/forum/Read/ Hopefully the message will still be there. Thanks in advance, Ann
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 23:03:20 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:57:25 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mortellaro >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:25:21 -0500 (CDT) >From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >>Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:13:59 +0100 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:32:11 -0400 >>>From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >>>Subject: Abductee Files/Our Children >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>The article continues with "A key section of Carpenter's talk >>>centered around accounts given by child contactees. " >>>"There was 5-year-old " >>>"An 8-year-old boy " >>>"A 3-year-old " >>>How many more children are among the 140 cases sold to NIDS? >>Ann, >>There must obviously be a gross mistake here and we seriously >>aren't talking about children so young as 8 years old, let alone >>3-year-olds, in any such context, whatsoever. >>If there are in fact children who have in any way been involved >>with 'alien abductions/contactee research', can someone please >>confirm precisely what they were asked to participate in, who >>the interviewers were and whether hypnosis was ever employed. >Jim: >The abduction of children by aliens is accepted as fact by most >abduction "experts" and propagated among avid readers of the UFO >genre and those listening with rapt attention to lectures about >these claims. Of course, as I have pointed out in various >publications, it doesn't seem logical to embrace these stories >without much thought. >One person who has noted children's abductions is John Mack: >"A two-year-old boy that I interviewed said that he was taken >into the sky by a man who bit his nose. A not-yet-three-year-old >boy said that owls with big eyes (it is common for children to >remember the alien beings disguised in animal forms) take him up >to a ship in the sky, and he is afraid he will not be able to >get back to his mother." >Mack, John. (1992). Why the abduction phenomenon cannot be >explained psychiatrically. PEER. Website: >www.peer-mack.org/mit92.html >But as I noted in my most recent book: >"As for abductions occurring in children as young as three years >old, I can only note that in my own experiences with >three-year-old children, I have found they can come up with some >really imaginative things. Hello Chris, EBK, Listers and Pootan, the alien from hell, Thank you for your observations. Since I know nothing about you, never read one of your books, etc., (no offense) I must ask the following questions. You said above, that "... in my own experience with 3 year old children..." then went on to comment about their active imaginations. Uh, were any of these active imaginations speaking to you about abductions or were these "normal" children? And to what do you refer when you use the word "experience" with children? Any experience with crazies like me. Or better, with any perceived abductees now grown up? >For example, when I asked my three-year-old what he had for >lunch, I could easily convince him that he had a grilled-cheese >sandwich, when he really had eaten spaghetti (and vice-versa). >Sometimes, he even gave me a wrong answer without any prompting. >So, I personally have to doubt whether or not the testimony of a >young child in recalling an alien abduction is very accurate. >Yet, Mack has described abduction experiences in even younger >children." When I was three years old, I am told that I had the diction of a child of age seven or eight. And no one could convince me that the pasta I had for lunch was anything but pasta. Not wishing to give you the wrong impression, but my childhood and it's memories are quite real in my mind. Perhaps your child is more suggestive than I was? Or maybe he just likes to eat. When I was three, it was 1946. No TV was there in our house. I was reading third grade reading material when I was five. The only fiction I had was on the radio. "Yours truly, Johnny Dollar, Arthur Godfrey, John MacNeil's Breakfast Club, the Lone Ranger etc., etc. No sci-fi, no "beam me up Scottie." I had never even seen a photo of a flying saucer before I was seven years old. And yet, I was drawing them for my parents. Still have some of those drawings. Pencil on anything. And I drew little stick men with big eyes and fat heads. I called the saucer a hospital and the little sons of evil (read: Aliens) I called "Doctors," because they did all sorts of examinations on me. Now how do you figger that? I cannot. Except that these are the memories I retain from 1944 on out. Mom kept a diary. I was not aware of this book (several actually) until a few months ago. I am now going over it in order to see if her memories from the time match my memories of the time. Interesting eh? Well, I hate to say, "read the book." But when it comes out (God knows how long it will take) - Read the book. Mom will support everything she rememebers, including the times I was missing. Yup, really missing. >So, it's a matter of personal opinion, I suppose. >Scientifically, I would have to doubt the veracity of children's >abduction stories. But if Mack and Carpenter say so, it must be >true, right? Nope. But if I say so it is. True. But unfortunately, only to me. Please forgive me if I sound sarcastic. I don't wish to be. But what I am speaking of are _my_ memories. To me, they are as real as they can be. And I have my loving parents to back many of them up. I am fortunate. Not in that respect. But fortunate that they are still with me. After all them years. 57. Hah! Poor old folks simply can't get rid of me. An only child. And still living in the past. Children, some children, have dreams which to them are the memories of real events. When I was a young whipper snapper, no one could tell me what was or was not real in my mind. My wonderful and nurturing parents called them dreams. I told them they were real. They did not believe me, but they assured me that if what I was remembering was real, that they would always be there to protect me. They could not do that. Much as they tried. And I am certain that there are many more out there like me. Some with some real tail twisters for stories. I know there are. I've met people jiust like me. Chris, maybe you should've interviewed me and some folks I know before you wrote the book. Maybe not. I promise however, that if you write me offlist and tell me about your book, that I will read it. Shoot, I need all the help I can get. Just promise me a discount. I am self publishing my drech. Original art by Lehmberg and Di Niro. That'd be my lovely wifey's maiden name. A bitchin artist. Lehmberg, not Rosie. Rosie is a non bitchin artist. Lehmberg just bitches... and bitches... his only saving grace is that he is the spitting image of Pia Zadora. It's why I love him. Just kidding. He doesn't look a thing like Pia. Maybe her hubby, but not her. Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files, Carpenter & NIDS - Thus Far - From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 23:45:37 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:01:23 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files, Carpenter & NIDS - Thus Far - >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 15:01:17 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files, Carpenter & NIDS - Thus Far >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >These people need real help right now. If anyone wants to do some thing >positive and practical we need to concentrate on getting these >witnesses/abductees _informed_! Put pressure on Carpenter/NIDS/ Bigelow >to do so immediately. We can't let up on the pressure until one of them does >right by these folks and lets _them_ know what is happening. Agreed. Human nature tells us that people aren't going to get off their rumps unless they have a reason - which is why I brought up the children included in these 120 files. One doesn't have to believe in alien abduction or UFOs to know that these kids deserve their dignity and their right to privacy. Everybody on this List has a moral obligation to do _something_, I posted a message on the NIDS discussion board. I asked people on this list to support me in that effort. I'll also be posting this in UFO CS. If there are other avenues - telephone or email, please let us know specifics. If you've already posted that info and I missed it, I apologize. I'm kinda zipping back and forth these days! Take care, Ann
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Re: Plan To Relocate UFO Museum Feared - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 00:00:49 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:04:05 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Plan To Relocate UFO Museum Feared - Mortellaro >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:34:21 -0400 >From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Roswell: Plan To Relocate UFO Museum Feared >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:50:02 +0200 >>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> >>Subject: Roswell: Plan To Relocate UFO Museum Feared >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Plan to Relocate UFO Museum Feared >>The Associated Press >>ROSWELL - City business leaders fear a plan to move the >>International UFO Museum and Research Center from downtown >>Roswell to the city's outskirts would steer hundreds of >>thousands of visitors away from downtown and devastate its >>economy. >Hey there List, >Nothing profound, or even controversial (I hope) but I couldn't >help notice the above item. When I visited Roswell for the 50th >anniversary 3 years ago I remember the merchants in town were >_very_ careful not to be insulting to the UFO tourists but you >didn't need to be Kreskin to sense their heart wasn't always in >it. Dear Michael J. Woody, How can you suggest that this tomb (sorry, I meant "tome") is not controversial? Bastard! You know damned well that this is a direct attack on the people of New York, my people. I know full well the Torontian methodology of making fun of New Yorkers when I hear it - or maybe even read it. Can't fool me, Mister! This attempt at hummer does not pass mustard. I can smell it from here. Liar! Seller of Inebriant files to Rich people! Pretender to the throne. The one at CFRB. I got sick there once. I should know. There I was, stinking drunk as a skunk. I needed to use the washroom. I was being interviewed by some dingleberry on the radio when the urge suddenly came upon me to Holler New Yawk. (I hadda throw up). So I pushed the cough button and left the interview. There I was, washing up after hollering New Yawk in the throne, when this guy pulls up next to me, attempting to wash his hands. Well, I was washing mine in my sink. He was washing his in his sink. My hands were quite clean. What was I gonna do? Naturally, I once again hollered, "New YAWK!" all over the other guy's hands. Well, I wasn't gonna throw up on mine was I? Now, we all know that this person was none other than Michael J. Woody, of the in famous "Stranger Daize Than These" show. And now, the bastard is getting back at me for this dastardly but very convenient (for me) deed by making fun of New Yorkers. Everyone shall know the deviosity of Woody. I shall even writ a song to Woody. I shall call it, "Song to Woody, the Bastard." >>Hedricks estimated that 50 percent of the customers who >>patronize Cowtown Boots are tourists - many of whom would not be >>there without the presence of the UFO Museum. >>Connie Amador, owner of Apache Gallery, said her business is >>absolutely dependent upon the money the museum's visitors bring >>in. >>"We hardly get any town people - unless they have visitors with >>them," she said. >These merchant comments remind me of an incident when I served >in the Canadian military during the 1970's. I was stationed at >CFB Petawawa, in the Ottawa Valley, the nearest town is a small >one, Pembroke. >One time after a couple of clashes between townies and soldiers >(usually in the town bar, fueled by alcohol) one town councilor >climbed up on his hind legs and allowed that maybe those >military types should be barred from Pembroke as they don't >contribute to the economy and cause nothing but trouble. >Our base commander, who I never thought of as bright, caught >wind of those comments and ordered pay parade be held for the >entire base, some 5,000 soldiers, and made arrangements so we >were all paid in 5 dollar bills. >You can guess the rest I'm sure. <snip> Yah, yah, we can guess the rest. _I_ was that commander. I was the man who deviously devised the five dollar gambit. FIve dollars American. I was a lot smarter than you thought I think I was. And I was high on Gripple at the time. Also, I was being abducted by lizard turds from Mongo, so naturally, I would not appear terribly brilliant. I was busy doing Pia every night. Actually, it wasn't really Pia. The lizard turds made me _think_ it was Pia. It really was an ugly little number from the planet Zadora in the Mound of Merriment, located nearby the stellar Planet Holy Woody, named after a wood be radio host. Or is that, "assistant" host? We all know of your ambition to take over Errol's position. What position is it this week, Errol? Prone? Like the last time I saw you? Huh? This is the last time I shall point to the deviosity of the Torontian mentality. Especially, the woody mentality. Can't fool the fool er. Jim, I can see through you, hair ball! PS: >The truth can STAY out there >Send in a good FANTASY! Yah, well, you aksed for it.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Chinese 'Fireballs'? From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 02:14:56 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:25:06 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Chinese 'Fireballs'? I don't recall any kind of resolution (pseudo or otherwise) regarding the Chinese phenomenon from the end of last year/beginning of this year. Anyone?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Velez From: John Velez<jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 02:19:08 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:30:33 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Velez Hello All, I mentioned in my last post that I had a call in to Budd inquiring about John Carpenters remark that Budd has supplied him with "cases." Following is Budd's response. As you will see, Budd misinterpreted my original question. He thinks I inquired if he ever "referred" anyone to John C. which is not what I was asking. My response to Budd follows his e-mail to me. Note to all: For personal reasons I severed all ties and connections with Budd and IF last year. I won't be posing anymore questions to him myself. I am not terribly choked up with playing "middle-man" and the resulting reinforcing of any associations between us. If anyone has any further inquiries that they wish to make of Budd you can write to him at: Budd Hopkins, IF P.O.Box 30233 N.Y., N.Y. 10011 or e-mail him at: IFcentral@aol.com I'm out of the "middle-man" business as of now. You all now know how to reach him yourselves. Any questions for Budd? Ask _him!_ ;) Respectfully, John Velez ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 15:59:41 EDT Subject: Reply to your phone call on John Carpenter To: jvif@spacelab.net Dear John, First, I was appreciative of the civility of your reply to my E-mail, and your understanding that I don't feel I have a lot of time to spend debating on the NET. As to your question, did I ever refer anyone to John Carpenter over the nearly twenty years I've known him, of course I have. I've referred possible abductees to about thirty-five different researchers, therapists, hypnotists, etc, if I thought the person needed help and I had a referral in their area. I've been doing this kind of referring for about twenty years, and I think I even once lent you my referral. Surely John was on it. Over the years I have talked to a few abductees who have complained about the person to whom I referred them: John Mack, Dave Jacobs, John Carpenter, Yvonne Smith, and others. Probably some of the people who were referred to me by one of my colleagues has complained to them about me, too. None of us is perfect, none has omniscience, and as I said before, most of us do this work for free. Some abductees, unfortunately, expect their free service to be flawless. Few, very few are such habitual complainers, but their are some. I hope this answers your question. Let's not beat this subject to death. I'm sure John Carpenter is regretful, chagrined and apologetic. All of us, to some extent, live in glass houses. Let's drop the stones before we do more damage. You can post this if you wish. Carol joins me in saying hello, and she wanted me especially to send her best to Margie. Budd ----------------------- My response to Budd: Hi Budd, I'd like to respond to this both privately and on UFO UpDates. Look for my private response under separate cover. You wrote: "Dear John, First, I was appreciative of the civility of your reply to my E-mail, and your understanding that I don't feel I have a lot of time to spend debating on the NET." I know, that's why I warned them up front not to expect an ongoing debate. " As to your question, did I ever refer anyone to John Carpenter over the nearly twenty years I've known him, of course I have. I've referred possible abductees to about thirty-five different researchers, therapists, hypnotists, etc, if I thought the person needed help and I had a referral in their area. I've been doing this kind of referring for about twentyy years, and I think I even once lent you my referral. Surely John was on it." My question was not whether you ever referred "abductees" to John. My question related to a statement that John made on the CompuServe UFO Forum about you having supplied him with abductee -cases.- The quote from the posting is as follows: Allegedly with his work with the MUFON abduction transcription project he presumably would have had full access to MUFON abductee files (besides his own), not to mention copies of files that other researchers may have sent him. For example in the Alien Zoo interview he is alleged to have made the claim that Budd Hopkins has sent "cases". The word "cases" could be interpreted to mean 'abductee referrals' or 'abductee files.' I was asking you if it was "files." Before I touched the phone I knew what your answer would be. I know you. But, I needed a direct statement from you so that I could nip this in the "budd" so to speak. I'm sorry that you find yourself caught up in this but it is an important issue for every abductee and I suppose that some of the honest and ethical folks will just have to weather out the sh*tstorm as best they can. " I hope this answers your question. Let's not beat this subject to death. I'm sure John Carpenter is regretful, chagrined and apologetic. All of us, to some extent, live in glass houses. Let's drop the stones before we do more damage." Budd you seem to be "missing the point." This kind of thing, (abductee files being sold for cash with identifying information included and no notification of the witnesses) simply cannot be allowed to happen again. One of the few ways to -insure- that it doesn't is to shine a lot of light on it. Make folks aware of the practice so that they can protect their own interests, privacy, and anonymity. Hopefully if folks begin to ask for and receive written assurances from investigators/researchers/ authors, this kind of thing will not be repeated. I'm sorry for this or any inconvenience to you personally. But, this is not a 'witch hunt' or any kind of a personal anything against John Carpenter. This is about those 140 abductees that have been screwed and used by John and to insure that there is never a repeat performance. I hope that you can appreciate the importance of pursuing this as vigorously as is necessary. This nasty business has now been confirmed by Bigelow himself, Walt Andrus, Dr. Alexander of NIDS, and about seven of the abductees whose files were sold. This no Mickey Mouse, "Ok now we all know about it so let's forget it because we're all human" kind of thing. This isn't about "cheating on the wife" or "pilfering office supplies from work," John has violated the trust, privacy, and right to anonymity of 140 abductees. No good. That kind of bullsh*t has to stop, and stop now. No ifs, ands, or buts. I'm ready to 'go down' to insure that it doesn't happen again. I am an abductee. There but for the grace of God go I. All I've been asking for is that the 120 who still don't know that their files have been sold, should be notified. A reasonable request under the circumstances with nothing personal to or about John Carpenter. I already told you, I sit in judgement of no man. I leave John and everyone else to the Lords of Karma. Carpenter is none of my affair. What alleged 'counsellors' and 'researchers' do to abductees, is. " You can post this if you wish. Carol joins me in saying hello, and she wanted me especially to send her best to Margie." I will pass along your greeting and well wishes to Margie. Thank you. Sincerely, John Velez -- ______________________________________________ A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center - www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm jvif@spacelab.net "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ______________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Re: OZ UFO Sightings - File code: 00801/2/3 From: Diane Harrison Director AUFORN <tkbnetw@powerup.com.au> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 16:24:01 +1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:36:45 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: OZ UFO Sightings - File code: 00801/2/3 FOLLOWUP George Simpson AUFORN Vic 1800 Callin Code: 00801 VIC 16.07.2000 Date: 16.07.2000 Day: Sunday Time Reported: 6.52 pm Location: VIC Reportee: Not given Report given to nearest rep: George Simpson Tel: 03 953 Message: Please ring. Witness saw object with long orange tail between 5.15am and 5.30am 16th of July. Report By George Observer named Barry lives in Sandrigham, Melbourne and overlooks port Philip Bay on Sunday 16th July at 5.10am. He saw a long "red line in the sky. It was fairly high up and appeared to be a red-orange colour, probably several kilometers long, and perfectly straight as if drawn using a ruler. He went inside to get his wife to come out and see it also, but it had disappeared. Thank you George for this report ----- FOLLOWUP George Simpson AUFORN Vic 1800 Callin Code: 00802 VIC 16.07.2000 Date: 16.07.2000 Day: Sunday Time Reported: 7.06 pm Location: VIC Reportee: Not given Report given to nearest rep: George Simpson Tel: 03 972 Message : Please ring. No message left. Report by George On Saturday night 15th July at about 11pm DW saw 3 amber lights flying overhead at very high altitude in a line towards the S.W. These lights were widely spaced and evenly spaced apart. The witness often sees many aircraft in the area where she lives which is Mooroolbark, a South Eastern suburb in the foothills of the Dandenong ranges. These lights were eerie because they were "silent" and they followed each other while being spaced. The witness wishes to remain anonymous. Thankyou George for this report. ----- FOLLOWUP George Simpson AUFORN Vic 1800 Callin Code: 00803 VIC 16.07.2000 Date: 16.07.2000 Day: Sunday Time Reported: 9.56 pm Location: VIC Reportee: Not given Report given to nearest rep: George Simpson Tel: 30 9 Message: Please ring. Red fireballs seen Report by George This sighting occurred during the Lunar Eclipse of July 16 2000. Firstly, a flashing light came over a group of people who were outside waiting to observe the eclipse. This Light was unusual because it was silent and it stopped, and then shot off at high speed. Secondly, two flashing lights came over and did the same thing, stopped, and then took off. Thirdly, another flashing light came over, this one resembling a fireball, stopped and then changed colour from red to green and blue and produced or "poured out" a very intensely bright light which was followed by an intense explosion. The whole street saw it, according to CC. After the explosion the object flew off at about a 45 degree angle and disappeared. The local police were contacted, soon afterwards the Mill Park police said a "car blew up" in the area. This was not a rational explanation as no exploded cars were reported in the area. Another witness about 2km away also saw the light stop, and saw the sudden very bright light and heard the explosion. Needless to say the eclipse fell into insignificance in the minds of those witnesses who later had difficulty getting to sleep with the events of the evening staying in their minds. Thank you George for this report Regards Diane Harrison Director Of The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia Co Director of The Australian UFO Research Network Australian Skywatch Director ~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<> THE KEITH BASTERFIELD NETWORK (A Non-Profit Organization) E-Mail: tkbnetw@powerup.com.au E-mail: ufologist@powerup.com.au http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw ADMINISTRATION: THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK (A Non-Profit Organization) PO Box 805 Springwood Qld 4127 Australia ~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<> Australian UFO Research Network Hotline Number 1800 77 22 88 Freecall ~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<> Disclaimer: The Keith Basterfield List Owners are not responsible for the content or misuse of this list. However, personal insults, flaming will not be tolerated. ~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Forward From Gary Hart From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 03:24:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:39:55 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Forward From Gary Hart Hello All, After I post these e-mails from Gary Hart I am going on vacation for a month. I'll see you all again in September. If you have any further inquiries about this Carpenter business you can direct them _all_ to Gary. I have said _everything_ I wanted to say on this issue at least twice. Some things three times! I have absolutely nothing more to add. It's all been said. My conscience is clear. I did what I could and what I felt I had to. Beyond that there really isn't much more that I can do. Please, from now on, direct any and all inquiries to Gary. * I send my deepest gratitude to all my friends and associates that supported me and counselled me throughout this whole nasty piece of business. I will continue to hope and pray that some good comes out of all of this. What follows is much more 'personal' and directed at John Carpenter himself. I'm not comfortable with that which is why I am extricating myself from the proceedings. All I cared about was the abductees. Not "nailing" John Carpenter or anybody else. I'm out of it for now. Enjoy the summer! See you guys in a few weeks. :) Warm regards to All, John Velez ---------------------------------------------------------------- Ladies and gentlemen, may I present Gary Hart. Gary: You're on your own! :) JV ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:25:35 -0500 To: jvif@spacelab.net From: geehart@frontiernet.net Subject: Formal Complaint v1.2 John, Thank you very much for caring enough to make the John Carpenter case and related ethical issues available to the members of the UFO Updates mail list. I and the people I represent appreciate your concern and determination to see that the truth is available for everyone to see. Here is the first four pages of what I presented to MUFON's John Schuessler. You may post it in its entirety publicly or share with others as you see the need. Comments or questions this generates can be directed to my phone, mail or email address as I now can freely answer questions and make statements based on the case evidence. We must all discuss openly these ethical issues and can no longer take them for granted. We must become informed! ~Gary Hart **************************************************************** From: Gary P. Hart RR 4 Box 182 Bloomington IL 61704 (309)963-4566 To: John Scheuessler, new head of MUFON Littleton CO Walt Andrus, former head of MUFON Seguin TX Filing of a Formal Complaint with Specific Charges Against John Steven Carpenter, MUFON Director of Abduction Investigations John Schuessler, Walt Andrus: As a member in good standing of the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON) organization, I, Gary Hart wish to file a formal complaint against MUFON's Director of Abduction Research John Carpenter based on the investigative report and evidence attached. I hereby charge John Carpenter with unprofessional conduct, unethical conduct, conduct unbecoming a MUFON official and negligent misrepresentation of himself as a health care professional during activities that involve "abduction research", hypnosis, contact with witnesses and the general public. I charge John specifically with multiple violations of both the spirit and the letter of MUFON's Code of Ethics. Walt Andrus on several occasions and to several different people has admitted that "MUFON is aware that John sold case files". He has further stated that MUFON has not acted on this apparent violation of abductee case confidentiality because "they were John's personal files". Walt also acknowledged that John has not supplied any cases or related documents to MUFON at any time so that ALL John's case files could supposedly be called "personal" and by inference uncovered by MUFON's extensive, detailed and publicly distributed Code of Ethics. Any casual observer, using common sense logic would see this to be a clear attempt to evade the scope and coverage of any and all ethical controls over John's professional investigative activities within the field of Ufology. Not only does this twist of words give John license to act in an unethical manner by harvesting stories and denying proper care to those persons in our society, abductees, who have been identified as having genuine and in most cases exceptionally traumatic experiences with UFO occupants, but other MUFON investigators see John's lack of integrity and ethical guidance in handling cases and feel they can act the same! John holds one of the highest and most respected offices in all of MUFON. John Carpenter should represent MUFON's highest example of moral and ethical conduct among its investigators and researchers. Unfortunately, tragically this has not been the case. John should be striving to see that abductees can obtain the continuing care, compassion and respect they and their families deserve. Instead John's documented pattern of conduct set the stage for the most heinous breech of trust that can occur between generally uninformed, unsuspecting and trusting abductees and the investigators researching their cases. John stated his title as a MUFON official, presented his St. John's Hospital business card and used his licensed medical position to establish a special bond of trust and authority with the witnesses who contacted him. They came under his care when he performed hypnosis to unleash hidden or purposefully blocked memories without proper assessment of various physical, medical and psychological risk factors as required by MUFON's Code of Ethics and this by his own admission. In many cases, John obtained abductee's personal medical records, combined them with transcripts of taped hypnosis sessions and sold these personal case files for nothing more than his own financial gain. In many or most cases no personal identification information was blacked out. I have found John's actions to be a blot on the international reputation of the MUFON organization as a whole. What is more disturbing is that none of the MUFON officials I talked to would try and verify ANY of the facts independent of communication with John, when the charges went public in late March. Through this investigation I have found these charges of official misconduct to be real, substantive and represent an abuse of power and position over many years. The MUFON organization has an all encompassing Code of Ethics. MUFON also has a stated expectation for the professional conduct of its members and officials. MUFON now has an opportunity to show the Ufological research community and the general public that their otherwise excellent Code of Ethics means something. MUFON can restore it's ethical and moral authority only by voting for John's removal from his office of Director of Abduction Research and from MUFON's Board of Directors. I hope that the Ethics Review Board and the Board of Directors of MUFON can find the fortitude, guts and courage to do what you have to do in a situation like this. I expect, as a MUFON Field Investigator representing the interests of the MUFON membership, abductees and the general public, that the Ethics Review Board is ready to act in a timely and decisive manner in this case, to investigate these charges further and to render an appropriate verdict. I suggest John's removal from office is the only appropriate course of action. The evidence of John's guilt cannot be reconciled with any other rational explanation for his conduct. *** I expect MUFON to notify me in a timely fashion with a registered letter as to what the results of the MUFON Ethics Review Board investigation are. I want to be contacted directly, to be clearly informed of the actions this Review Board does or does not take regarding these charges formally directed at John Carpenter. The entire membership expects action to be taken to protect the integrity of the organization they are members of. *** The Evidence Since the case presented here is of a civil nature, I do not need to prove this case beyond a shadow of a doubt as would be done in a criminal case. I need only prove through a preponderance of evidence that John is guilty as charged. Included in this report is the 2/3 of the evidence in my possession that best carries the case. Keep in mind that I could have gotten many more signed statements but the present report represents dozens of hours of investigative data collection, phone calls, in-person interviews and painstaking paperwork. This has taken me to the limit of my resources, not the limit of the documentation or testimony possible! All evidence contained in this report should be considered confidential from MUFON's viewpoint. It would be libelous to make the lawsuit document itself public as the specific charges within were never proven in a court of law. Other materials may at some time be released publically but I alone retain the right to do so in cooperation and consideration of the abductees' continuing rights and interests which I pledge THIS time will be respected. Contact with witnesses and abductees can be made through me after their individual approval. Walt asked in April if I would supply the list of 90 of the 140 names of abductees whose files were sold as I have a copy in my possession. I have contacted several persons on the list, a copy of which was picked off the floor of John's office as Elizabeth moved out of their house in August '97, and these persons are unwilling to trust Walt or MUFON under any proposed conditions to keep the list confidential. Documents have tracking numbers installed on every page. All documents track to originals. Suggestions for Change May I suggest that in the future MUFON require: that all MUFON officers and officials sign on to the MUFON Code of Ethics as a specific requirement to hold office; that ALL abductees and/or their files MUFON officials work with, whatever their source, be required to have had explained clearly all risks to them from hypnosis and other parts of the investigative process including the potential loss of confidentiality and the potential lack of emotional support they may have to endure. More clearly worded Informed Consent forms should be designed that specifically spell out issues that to-date have represented loopholes for unethical activities. These new forms should be required to be signed by abductees, investigators, researchers AND mental health professionals MUFON requires to be involved and then filed with the international office. These forms should have a section that by signature specifically identifies what part of the abductee's case file can be made publicly available as might occur if their personal case file is sold to a third party that has no Ethics Code controls in place. Conclusion John's unprofessional, unethical and fraudulent activities have rendered his body of research worthless as we true investigative and research professionals can no longer determine what is truth or fiction within his abductee accounts or conclusions given the exceptionally dysfunctional behavior this report documents as having occurred between John and his abductee contacts. If MUFON will not uphold the letter and intent of it's board approved, adopted, published and sold Code of Ethics, then MUFON and it's officers can be reasonably seen as acting in a fraudulent manner. If MUFON or any other organization for that matter, intentionally or otherwise defrauds the public, it should not continue to exist as it is preying on the very public it professes to serve. I am taking this Ufological Code of Ethics discussion to a much wider exposure. After talking at length with the abductee victims involved in this case, I feel a moral obligation to do so. Some of my communications about this case have been posted to Internet discussion groups by individuals I have communicated with. Some of the information and documentation contained within this report may well need to be on public display such as: MUFON's Code of Ethics, the several letters written by John Carpenter to Robert Bigelow, John's lawyer's letter in response to the lawsuit threat, John's recent email responses to the threat of this investigation and the edited body of this report with some names removed. The interests of MUFON's membership AND the general public are NOT served by keeping this secret or out of public view. Most people in the field of Ufology (and surprisingly most people in MUFON) apparently have not read and taken to heart the tenets of MUFON's Code of Ethics so I am providing the text to those who wish to read it. Our Code of Ethics must be our top priority. We all need to be better informed so we can practice the Code properly and can inform others of the proper behavior expected between witnesses, observers, abductees, investigators, hypnotherapists, mental health professionals of all kinds and simple hobbyists like John professes to be. Sincerely, Gary P. Hart/Illinois and Missouri MUFON Field Investigator ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:40:36 -0500 To: jvif@spacelab.net From: geehart@frontiernet.net Subject: MUFON Guidelines/Code of Ethics v1.3 John, This is an updated version of the last code of ethics section I sent you. This is another section of my report MUFON now has. ~Gary Hart **************************************************************** MUFON Guidelines and Code of Ethics For those who have not ever read MUFON's Code of Ethics and supporting articles, one of which was written by John Carpenter himself, the relevant sections and statements are included within this investigative report section. John's plea is that the therapist/patient relationship never existed, no continuing therapy was necessary and he was simply a collector of information. He also states that he did not do it for the money though he did (occasionally) get donations. He does refer to Elizabeth as his patient in their love letters in the fall of '93, just after they met in Florida. In another letter, he says Denise (John's first wife and mother of their three children) wondered why Elizabeth had to have a therapist so far away from her home in Georgia. He was indeed, in his own writing, presenting himself as Elizabeth's therapist at the same time he was having an admitted affair with her. I have talked to a person who was asked to pay $65 dollars for a session done after hours at an office in one of the hospital-owned buildings. No donation but payment for services rendered. There are four articles in the $25 MUFON Field Investigator's Manual, edition 4, associated with abductions and the Ethics Code for Abduction Experience Investigations and Treatment (the entire abduction section runs from pages 252 to 311). In one of these articles which obviously reflect MUFON's official published guideline process, "Hypnosis as an Adjunct to Investigation" by Dan Overlade, it says "...the recall of a traumatic abduction can be an emotionally upsetting, life-disturbing experience which requires the attention of a trained psychotherapist. A hypnotist that simply unlocks such memories and then abandons the abductees to their own consternation and anguish is irresponsible and insensitive." "The abductee can be assured that disclosures to the hypnotherapist will remain confidential until and unless the abductee signs a release authorizing the hypnotherapist to disclose information. This reassurance is necessary because some memories recalled may be highly personal and embarrassing. ...(investigators should) resist the temptation to disclose anything about a case to anyone until and unless you have clear (and written) authorization to do so. Many abductees will be willing to authorize such disclosure by stipulating to whom it may be disclosed or by stipulating in what manner and to what extent they want their identity concealed." John S. Carpenter, M.S.W. wrote the second article, titled "Partnership Between Investigation and Therapy" where he says: "...the mental health professional is appropriately trained and experienced in caring for the emotional well-being of the individual, helping to guarantee that coping with his symptoms takes precedence over any investigation for purposes of data collection." "There is also the possibility that a lack of respect for confidentiality could occur with the involvement of a non-professional person, bringing greater anxiety and discomfort to the individual who is sharing disturbing or highly-charged emotional material." Of course these are articles and not the Ethics Code itself but do certainly represent guidelines for behavior by MUFON members involved with abduction investigations. The Ethics Code, published in the same Field Investigator's Manual, ed. 4 was voted on and approved by the MUFON board of directors on 7-10-94 and adopted for use starting on 2-95. The Code is a guide for investigators and mental health professionals (MHPs) working with the increasing population of individuals who have reported "abduction experiences" and is quoted here: Mental health professionals working with abduction experiencers are not only ethically guided by the codes of their professional organization, but also legally bound by the ethical standards of their licensing bodies. Mainstream researches working with human subjects are also bound by the ethical standards of their professional organizations (and MUFON). This code supplements and complements those existing codes... Relevant sections of the Ethics Code as applies to this case: BENEFITS OF ADOPTING THE CODE 1. Protection of Experiencer. It is the primary purpose of this document to protect the rights and welfare of the individuals with whom abduction investigators and MHPs work. Ethical investigation and treatment will serve to protect the experiencer from unreasonable risk created by participation in investigation or treatment. 3. Benefits to treatment. therapeutic outcome depends on the ethical behavior of the MHP. Treatment fro the abduction experience that follows ethical guidelines will best serve the experiencer. PART A: ETHICAL GUIDELINES FOR INVESTIGATION AND TREATMENT 2. Definition of Terms 2.2 Investigator. An investigator is someone whose objective is the collection, analysis and interpretation of data pertaining to an abduction experience. 2.3 Mental Health Professional (MHP). A mental health professional (MHP) is someone whose objective is the diagnosis of, and treatment for, disorders of emotion, cognition, behaviour, and adjustment associated with an abduction experience. A MHP has licensing or certification reflecting training appropriate for providing mental health services. II. Guidelines 1. Competence and Responsibility "To maintain the integrity of investigation or treatment in regard to the abduction experience, investigators and MHPs have a responsibility to use only those skills and techniques they have acquired through training, education or experience and to maintain strict supervision of the assistants with whom they work. Investigators and MHPs should not misrepresent themselves in terms of competencies or credentials they do not have. ...it is important that investigators and MHPs are careful to practice only the skills for which they are qualified and to practice them in a way that goals and obligations are clear and well-defined. 2. Minimal and Reasonable Risk Investigators and MHPs working with abduction experiencers must strive to avoid causing them any mental or physical harm and where such harm is foreseeable or unavoidable, they should strive to minimize it. The concept of "reasonable" and "minimal" risk is central to resolving ethical dilemmas in this regard. As defined in the "Federal Policy for the Protection of Human Subjects" (Federal Register 1992) "minimal risk means that the probability and magnitude of harm or discomfort anticipated...are not greater in and of themselves greater than those ordinarily encountered in daily life or during the performance of routine physical or psychological examinations or tests". In deciding whether the critieria of minimal and reasonable risk will be met, investigators and MHPs dealing with abduction experiencers should bear in mind that the emergence of disturbing or traumatic experiences, while not inevitable, must always be anticipated... The eliciting of an abduction experience or the bringing about of change in behavior or attitude may be either harmful or beneficial. But they will always represent a risk. 3.3 Assessment for Risk in Investigations. Prior to any investigation with a subject of their known or suspected abduction experiences, assessment should determine that no organic, mental or behavioral disorder exists that would put the experiencer beyond reasonable risk if an investigation were to proceed. Because the administration and interpretation of assessment tests or interviews requires special training, these should be administered by an appropriately trained MHP or an investigator or collaborator acting under the supervision of a MHP. ***John has to assess a possible abductee for physical and psychological risk factors as an MHP before any hypnosis can take place. 4.1 Nature of Informed Consent: As part of any ethical program of investigation or treatment with abduction experiencers, the experiencer's participation must be voluntary and must be based on adequate knowledge of the investigation or treatment protocol and possible consequences. The abduction experiencer must receive, in understandable language, enough information about the proposed study or course of treatment to enable them to decide whether or not to participate. 4.3 Elements of Informed Consent in Investigations. A description of procedures for confidentiality; anticipated risks, discomforts and inconveniences and a description of fees or expenses, if any, are to be included on a form signed by the abduction experiencer to signify the experiencer's acceptance of the protocol. ***Does John have these signed forms in his possession for all the experiencers he performed hypnosis on and does the information on the forms match witness statements regarding the fees they were required to pay, the confidentiality the experiencers were ultimately afforded and other relevant information? 7. Anonymity and Confidentiality Both the information from and the identity of abduction experiencers are subject to the principle of confidentiality. Investigators and MHPs have an obligation to protect the confidentiality of the abduction experiencers with whom they work. This means maintaining confidentiality in data collection, record keeping, and data dissemination whether by writing, lecture, through the media, or conversation. The maintenance and limitations of confidentiality should be provided to the abduction experiencer as a matter of informed consent. 8. Dissemination 8.1 Access to Findings. Ethical reporting of investigations will involve disseminaton of or availability of the methodology and data from the investigation. Similarly, MHPs who feel that they can advance knowledge through dissemination of the outcomes or insights derived in the course of treatment for the abduction experience are behoved to do so. Dissemination of findings by both investigators and MHPs is subject to the restrictions as outlined in section 7 above, Anonymity and Confidentiality. ***The experiencer must be told how and why their information is to be disseminated by BOTH investigators and MHPs through the concept of Informed Consent.This protects both the experiencer's physical and psychological health. For John to say he was just an investigator (data collector) does NOT free him of this obligation. PART B: EXPLICATION (detailed explanation or implications) OF ETHICAL GUIDELINES II. Comments on Guidelines 1.C Hypnotists Individuals performing hypnosis for investigation of the abduction experience should do so within a protocol consistent with this Code. Such protocol must include an assessment for risk before any investigation proceeds. 2. Minimal and Reasonable Risk The related notion of "reasonable" risk goes further. It suggests that some risk, even if minimal, may not be reasonable. Even minimal risk should be avoided if it is not a necessary consequence of the investigative protocol. 3.A Assessment as "Abduction Experiencer". Prior to conducting an investigation with or providing treatment for an abduction experiencer, it should first be determined that the individual is an abduction experiencer. This prohibition on treatment and investigation prior to assessment does not preclude the collection of demographic data about an individual, obtaining a psychological and medical history or administering questionaires or interviews to gain a record of an individual's conscious recall of significant life events and experiences. In fact, such activity is required to make the assessment of "abduction experiencer". Investigation of or treatment for the abduction experience should proceed only if consultation among the investigator, a MHP and the subject or client suggests it is in the subject's or client's best interest. 3.A.1 Determining "Best Interest" Determining what is "in the best interest" of the subject/client is different from assessing risk. The assessment for risk asks the question, "Is there any way that the techniques of investigation or treatment for the abduction experience would put the subject at unreasonable or unnecessary risk or harm?" The determination of "best interest" asks, "Will it benefit the subject/client to engage in investigation or treatment for the abduction experience?" Such a determination includes elements of assessment for risk and informed consent, but goes further. The determination of "best interest" provides the subject/client an opportunity to express expectations and needs and to obtain counseling, reassurance and information without being subjected to a formal course of investigation or treatment. Because diagnosis and the provision of counseling are the purview of a MHP, the Code specifies that a MHP should be included in any discussion to determine "best interest". ***As an MHP and MUFON Director of Abduction Research, John is required to assess his clients before hypnosis. He cannot then turn into a simple data collecting investigator for the purposes of limiting his ethical ties to the information he recovers through subsequent hypnosis without turning his assessment of risk and what is ultimately in the best interest of the abductee UPSIDE DOWN! It is unethical to do so without informing the client of this. Just ask YOUR doctor! 3.A.2 Using Hypnosis for Assessment ...the concept of "reasonable risk" precludes this Code from advocating the use of hypnosis in the assessment phase. 3.B.2 Responsibilty for Assessment The Code specifies that a MHP, or an associate working under the supervision of a MHP (this person may be an "investigator") is required to make this assessment because only the MHP has the qualifications to (a) make the determination (diagnosis) of whether disorders exist, and (b) make a professional judgement as to the extent to which they represent a risk in investigation or treatment for the abduction experience. Investigators who have not established a collaborative arrangement with a MHP should restrict their activities to data collection... This is regrettable, but unavoidable. Minimizing risk (and therefore assessing for risk) is a sine qua non of ethical investigation and this is true regardless of the availability of assessment resources. 4. Informed Consent The concept of informed consent means much more than simply obtaining an abduction experiencer's agreement to cooperate with an investigation. It is critical that the experiencer understand the nature of the procedures to be used and the possible consequences of participation in the investigation. 6. Ethical Protocols 6.A Ethical Protocols in Investigations. By following the ethical guidelines in this Code, investigators of the abduction experience will not only be protecting the experiencers with whom they work from harm, they will also be strengthening the perception and reality of abduction research as a legitimate endeavor. ***John has done the opposite: he has exposed his experiencers to potential psychological harm and promoted an atmosphere of distrust between experiencers and the research community. 7 Anonymity and Confidentiality Conducting investigation, research or treatment with abduction experiencers will, as a matter of course, collect sensitive personal information. Such data should normally never be linked to or associated with any identified individual when findings are discussed with or disseminated to the media, the public or other colleagues. If an experiencer has explicitly waived confidentiality, then this restriction can be relaxed. ***One of John's arguments is that during hypnosis any other persons in the room other than he and the experiencer removes confidentiality from the process and by extension as he intends, his need for confidentiality. This is not true. It is also untrue that, as John states, he is no longer bound to handle a case confidentially when experiencers are interviewed later and reveal aspects of their case to colleagues, the media or, one can assume, anyone else. MHPs are typically mandated by law not to disclose information collected in their work with a client. Although this constraint should not prevent MHPs from providing assessment services to investigators, it should clearly be understood by investigators that much information will not normally be disclosed by a MHP, unless absolutely necessary or when consent has been given by the experiencer. 8. Dissemination 8.A Access to Findings Findings (def: results of investigation) should be reported fully and without omission of significant data. Investigators should cooperate in efforts to make raw data and associated documentation available to others, always insuring that confidentiality not be violated. ***Confidentiality is violated when the experiencer is not informed as to the transfer of their case file material to a third party (Robert Bigelow and his NIDS organization) for personal gain. This violation is more obvious when it is realized that John's letter before the transaction indicates his dire need for money and the letter after the "the contract" letter simply thanks R. Bigelow for the financial assistance: "Personally, I want to thank you, Bob, for your assistance regarding the 140 cases I mailed to you. That helped pay some bills." No mention of research or what the files were to be used for other than to aid John financially. 9. Approaches to Ethical Issues In assessing one's day-to-day practice, as well as in resoving ethical dilemmas, investigators and MHPs should be guided by the spirit as well as the letter of the Code. Do no harm. Make sure there are no problems that will be made worse by what you do and try not to create new problems. END of the BODY of the Ethics Code SAMPLE INFORMED CONSENT FORM ***We have no idea what the form John had some or all of his clients sign but these relevant statements are taken from MUFON's sample form included in the Field Investigator's Manual: "To advance knowledge most effectively, it is important that information learned in this investigation be shared with other investigators. In so doing, unless otherwise authorized by you, your identity will remain anonymous and any information that would allow identification will be held in confidence." "...I also understand that the results of this investigation may be made available to other investigators and that my identity will remain anonymous, unless agreed otherwise." END OF CODE OF ETHICS EXCERPTS ***In the statement at the front of all MUFON Symposium Proceedings, it is written: "In order that only qualified, competent and sincere people may become involved, membership in MUFON is by invitation only." This strongly implies a control over the membership process to ensure all members follow established organizational structures and guidelines. The statement continues: "Field Investigators are trained and high standards of professionalism are required by MUFON. ...Field Investigators uphold the confidentiality of witnesses and case information." A common sense interpretation of these statements implies this high standard of training, professionalism and ability to uphold witness confidentiality is best exemplified by the professionals invited to be members of MUFON's Board of Directors. Given the fact that MUFON SELLS it's Field Investigator's Manual, it can be reasonably assumed that MUFON's Directors, international staff, country, region and State Directors and their respective officers all would be required to operate within the organizational structure and Code of Ethics guidelines stated clearly within its pages without an obvious attempt made to evade responsibility to do so. In John's case MUFON has allowed a situation contrary to this assumption. It is unknown how far these inconsistent actions or structures have spread. It has been stated by a well-known researcher that "everyone does it" referring to selling files. This "everyone does it" statement was also applied to having sexual relations between researchers and abductees. John's situation may just be the tip of the iceberg! I know firsthand that some MUFON State Directors fail to follow ANY of MUFON's organizational, structural or ethical guidelines and the state structure is rendered totally unresponsive to the wishes of the general membership in those states. Make no mistake: this is a prescription for the unethical and unprofessional treatment of witnesses, MUFON members and the defrauding of the general public and the fact that this provably already occurs because of the MUFON Board of Directors' lack of control or guidance over situations demanding such is not unexpected. John opened a Pandora's box of problems for himself and the abduction experiencers he has worked with when he sold case files to pay his own bills. These problems cannot themselves be undone. WE have a responsibility to see that this sort of situation NEVER happens again! END OF CODE OF ETHICS SECTION -- ______________________________________________ A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center - www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm jvif@spacelab.net "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ______________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Siegel Show - Call-In 'Witness' From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 03:48:22 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:42:12 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Siegel Show - Call-In 'Witness' A caller to Mike Siegel (guest is astronaut Gordon Cooper), claiming to be a former military guy, just recounted a story about witnessing a saucer-shaped object being transported (tightly under canvas wrap) across whatever base he was on way-back-when, etc. Allegedly the base was locked up tight & pretty much everyone knew "we have one of theirs", etc. The guy went on to say that he was getting older & that he basically just didn't care about any security oaths he had taken or who heard him talking about it now: "What can they do to me?", he said. Siegel asked if it'd be alright for his producers to get the guy's contact info so that they could forward it to MUFON so that someone could get in contact w/ him, & the guy said absolutely, no problem. So ... uh, there you go. FWIW, the call was somewhere between 3:00-3:30 am, EST.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 01:15:53 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:45:36 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Hatch >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 07:57:50 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Reflections >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Tim Mathews <TMMatthews99@aol.com> >>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:31:00 -0400 (EDT) >>Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:49:50 -0400 >>Subject: UpDate: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Reflections >>We have been careful to point out that, as yet, we can make no >>definitive statement about the nature of the very significant >>footage in our possession. ><snip> >>The footage will be shown at Steve Mera's September 16th >>Conference so I suggest you book it with him now; >I think that it is terrific that you have the footage. However, >do we have to pay to see it? If, as Philip suggests, you are >"taking Ufology forwards and in the right direction", then why >not share the images with this List? Why not post some still >images or some AVI or Quicktime footage? >No offense EBK, but this list seems to becoming more and more of >a place to plug books, lecture dates and conferences and less >and less about sharing info. Almost every time we begin to get >to the meat of something, the discussion is abruptly interrupted >by something like, "Check out my book if you want to know more." >Still, I'm happy that new footage exists, even if it is being >held for ransom. ;) Hello Roger, Tim and all: I must have missed some emails here, I still do not have a clear idea what exactly was seen. Was there some physical craft seen, not just some night-lights or the like? If so, what was the reported shape? Are we talking about a spindle-cigar, and deltoid/flying triangle etc., or even a classic flying disk/saucer? How about maneuvers? Special effect? All I have seen are details of the news coverage, reactions, everything but the UFO itself. Sorry I'm so dense. - Larry Hatch - - - - - - - -
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 29 From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:45:55 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:47:44 -0400 Subject: UpDate: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 29 Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor. <Masinaigan@aol.com> ========================== UFO ROUNDUP Volume 5, Number 29 July 20, 2000 Editor: Joseph Trainor "ALIEN INVASION" RUMORS SWEEP MEXICO CITY Silver celebration balloons released by a luxury hotel on the Paseo de la Reforma in Mexico City triggered a flurry of UFO reports on Wednesday morning, July 12, 2000. According to the newspaper La Cronica de Hoy, air traffic controllers at Mexico City's Aeropuerto Internacional "received hundreds of calls" from city residents at 10:30 a.m. in the Polanco and Auzures sections of the city. Radar operators at the airport "futilely scanned the skies over the city yesterday (July 12) for three UFOs which were allegedly seen by hundreds of onlookers over a downtown area. Proteccion Civil (Mexico's Civil Defense--J.T.) received numerous calls from people who witnessed the passage of the UFOs over the Paseo de la Reforma." "The 'parade' of shiny objects parading across the capital's skies unleashed popular imagination," Conica reporter Julian Tellez wrote. "Hundreds of persons saw what was described as 'a shiny dot with quick movements and without a defined heading.'" "'I don't think that it's an airplane, much less a child's lost balloon. Airplanes don't have this color. Helicopters don't have that shape. And a balloon would have burst on account of the gusts,' stated one taxi driver who looked heavenward." "In the wake of the sightings, spokespersons for the Mexico City Aeropuerto Internacional stated that they had found no sign of "an alleged appearance by UFOs over the Distrito Federal (Federal District, i.e. Mexico City and its suburbs--J.T.) But world-famous Mexican ufologist Jaime Mauusan "confirmed that at 10:20 a.m. yesterday reports were coming from persons who claimed having seen at least 20 UFOs over the avenues of the Polanco and Auzures districts and over the PEMEX Tower and other neighborhoods." "According to Maussan's staff, they witnessed how the 'silvery objects' formed geometric shapes in the air without (leaving) a trace. Many persons set aside their activities to watch the 'extraordinary' event." "'I'm very concerned that SEDENA (Mexico's Department of Defense--J.T.) isn't doing anything. Those things were flying over their building, and that's a restricted flight area,'" said one man who was walking on the Calle Romero. ""The phenomenon soon turned into a possible alien visitation." "'I've already had a few sightings, the last of them when my wife was starting to get better,' stated a taxi stand watchman in Polanco, scratching his head. 'We're nothing compared with them (aliens--J.T.). They've already reached us, and we haven't even reached them.'" Mexican authorities "confirmed that the objects were simply balloons sent aloft from an event at" the Marquis Reforma Hotel. (See La Cronica de Hoy for July 13, 2000, "City 'Close Encounter' causes great expectations and and causes commotion in Polanco," by Julian Tellez. Michas gracias a Scott Corrales, auto de los libros Chupacabras and Other Musteries y Forbidden Mexico para eso articulo de diario.) (Editor's NOte: A UFO flap took place in Mexico City earlier this year, on February 14, 2000. See UFO Roundup volume 5, number 8, "Police mobilized as UFO hovers over Mexico City," page 1.) TWO UFO CASES REPORTED IN THE UNITED KINGDOM Shortly after midnight on Sunday, July 9, 2000, Russell B. and his friends "spotted a black sauvcer- shaped craft" in the Lincolnshire-Nottinghamshire border area. The UFO "was flying from Long Bennington to Belvoir." "Lights projecting from the source appeared as multiple searchlights, creating fast-moving white spots and highlighting clouds," he reported, " The saucer, which they kept in view until 3 a.m. "had red lights" all around the rim. (Email Form Report) The following evening, Monday, July 10, 2000, Ian Kent and two friends were at Spring Hill, near Harrogate, North Yorkshire, UK when they saw an unusual object in the night sky. The UFO, Ian reported, "was a large steel-blue orb which appeared to pulsate and was seen hovering for about 10 minutes at 10 p.m." "We were travelling by car to Bethwickshaw from Killinghall when we saw the object which stayed motionless for about 20 minutes before swinging from right to left in an arc, then travelled at extreme speed in the direction of Utley." "We are appealing for any information regarding this. Someone must have seen something," Ian added, "We are all still quite upset by the experience that evening." There is one curious postscript to this sighting. Iam mentioned that "a pet dog owned by my father-in-law now refuses to come anywhere near us, if we are in the same room." Harrogate, North Yorks. is located 40 miles (64 kilometers) north of Leeds. (Email Interview) UFO ACTIVITY REPORTED ON THE ISLAND OF SICILY On Wednesday, June 21, 2000, at 11 p.m., Alessandro di P. was in his hometown of Addaura, a suburb of Palermo, the largest city on the large Mediterranean island of Sicily, when he spotted something strange in the night sky. "The sky was calm and clear," Alessandro reported, "Then a friend told me to look up, and I saw in the sky, towards the east, a glowing luminous white object. The object was proceeding towards us, and it passed directly overhead. The light was at a very high altitude and was glowing, with a twinkle like the one a star would make. It moved in a rectilinear fashion and occasionally oscillated, flashing its light. The whole sighting lasted for just over 30 seconds before the object was lost from sight." Two weeks earlier, on Tuesday, June 6, 2000 at 10:02 p.m., eyewitnesses in the city of Messina on Sicily "saw a luminous object leaving a short trail behind it, which moved at an extremely high velocity, with a steady light like a large lamp in the sky." Messina is located about 170 kilometers (102 miles) east of Palermo. The island of Sicily is part of Italy. (Grazie a Davide Ferrara di Centro Ufologico Nazionale-Catania per questi rapporti.) EERIE LIGHTS BEDAZZLE HOBART, TASMANIA "A full-scale alien alert went out in Hobart last night as eerie white lights taunted the city's suburbs for nearly two hours." "Panic-stricken residents inundated the police, the Tasmanian UFO Centre and the Mercury (newspaper) with eyewitness reports of the white, blinding spectacle which initially was passed off as the Antarctic Division's LIDAR laser." "Excited skywatchers refused to be pacified by police and told the Mercury (that) beams of light were shining earthwards." Hobart is the capital of Australia's island-state of Tasmania. The city is located 800 kilometers (480 miles) south of Sydney. (Undated news item from the Hobart Mercury. Many thanks to Louise Lowry for this report.) (Editor's Comment: Please, please, please, dear readers, please include the newspaper's date of issue whenever you send the item to UFO Roundup. Properly documented items are invaluable to UFO researchers of the future.) TOM KING VIDEOTAPES A RED SAUCER IN ARIZONA Arizona ufologist and videographer Tom King shot footage of a UFO over Phoenix, the state capital of Arizona on two consecutive nights--Wednesday, June 12, and Thursday, June 13, 2000. Both sightings took place at around 8 p.m. "A red light known as 'Bubba' to Gulf Breeze (Florida--J.T.) is now patrolling the Phoenix area," Tom reported, "Several people are seeing and reporting this." "I shot video on Wednesday (July 12) and Thursday (July 13) of Bubba. The video I shot was on a tripod, manual focus and allowed the UFO to pan across the screen to review flight patterns later," he added. "Video on Thursday was shot using a 5X telephoto lens on a SONY Hi-8, video ranges of 80X optical and 350X digital, shot normal mode in infrared video. You can see a disc or saucer-shaped object" as "it ejected an object out of the top of it." Tom alerted several people in the central valley of Arizona, including fellow ufologist Jeff Willes, who also caught the saucer on video. Tom's video footage was aired on several TV stations in Phoenix, Channels 3, 5 and 10. Tom has posted both his sauver video and the three newscasts on his website. UFO Roundup readers can access Tom King's website by setting their browser for http://www.ufovideo.com (Editor's Note: Tom King shot much video footageof UFOs during the "Battle of Phoenix" in March 1997.) BIGFOOT SIGHTED NEAR CAVE JUNCTION, OREGON A family of five from Alaska encountered a large Bigfoot while hiking in the forests of Oregon Caves National Monument in southern Oregon. According to cryptozoologist Loren Coleman, on Saturday, July 1, 2000, Dr. Kenneth Johnson, his wife Rochelle and his three children, Levi, Hannah and Micah, stopped at the heavily-wooded national monument during their vacation tour of the Lower 48 states. Dr. Johnson reported, "We had lunch at a picnic table and then took a tour of the caves. The caves were spectacular. If you haven't seen them before, they are quite an experience." (Editor's Comment: I'll second that. I visited the Oregon Caves in August 1990, and they were a geologist's delight. Also be sure to visit the nearby Kerbyville, Oregon museum. Tell them Joe sent you.) "Leaving the caves, people usually turn right to go back to the gift shop and lodge. We decided to turn left and go up (on the ridge) to see the Big Tree." (Editor's Note: The "Big Tree" is a giant Douglar fir about 1,000 years old and measuring 40 feet or 13 meters in diameter.) Being outdoor enthusiasts from Alaska, the Johnson family had no qualms about hiking five miles (8 kilometers) uphill into the Cascade Mountains. "As we were hiking up the hill, we smelled a very strong pungent smell that was as strong as a skunk," Dr. Johnson said, "But it asn't a skunk. We continued to hike up the trail, and the trail switched back to the right as we climbed the mountain." All at once, Dr. Johnson heard "a faint sound about five feet away. At first I thought it was merely the blood vessels pounding in my head because it was a constant sound/rhythym. We kept walking up the trail. I heard the sound again, except it was louder." Calling a halt, Dr. Johnson asked his family, "Do you guys hear that sound?" "They looked at me and nodded in affirmation," he added, "Continuing to hike, we heard more of the sound, usually in cycles of five or six repetitions." He described the sound as "Whoa-whoa-whoa- whoa-whoa-whoa!" "I stopped my family on the trail and told them to stay put. I hiked up the hill to my left," he said, explaining that he was experiencing a "fight or flight" physical reaction and had to defecate. "I was scanning the woods along the side of the mountain on either side of the trail my family was standing on. That's when I saw it." "I saw it come out from behind a tree to the left and walk to a tree to the right. The creature looked as if it was watching my family as they were standing on the trail. What I saw was not a grizzly bear or a black bear," adding that he has seen both in Alaska and was had an encounter with a Kodiak brown bear on the Russian River. "I pulled up my shorts immediately, walked fast down the trail and got my family moving up the mountain." Dr. Johnson described the animal as "very tall. It looked half-human and half-ape and had very dark hair, a mix of dark brown and black hair." Dr. Johnson led his family back to the lodge on a roundabout route that took several hours. He did apprise his wife Rochelle of the situation but said nothing to the children because he "did not want them to panic on the trail." When they returned to the lodge, he sent the children to the gift shop and reported his Bigfoot encounter to the park ranger. Oregon Caves National Monument is just off Oregon Highway 199 about 30 miles (48 kilometers) south of Grants Pass and five miles (8 kilometers) north of the California state line. Loren Coleman is on his way to Oregon to personally investigate this case. (Many thanks to Loren Coleman for this news story.) IMP TAKES OUT TWO MORE COPS IN DANDE DE VARELA El Diablillo (Spanish for Imp from Hell--J.T.) has struck again in Argentina, this time sending two rural police officers to the hospital. "Two men were hospitalized and sedated after being found in a state of shock attributed to the alleged apparition of a new 'Imp.'" "They were the second victims of a supernatural apparition in the locality of Dande de Varela," located five kilometers from San Fernando del Valle de Catamarca and about 300 kilometers (180 miles) northwest of Buenos Aires, the national capital. On July 5, 2000, Corporal Migue; Angel Aguero was visited at a substation in Dande de Varela by the Diablillo, described as a dwarf with very red eyes wearing a green shirt and black pants. "The new apparition allegedly took placeyesterday (Tuesday, July 11, 2000) in the Maria del Valle guardhouse in Dande de Varela. Witnesses were Luis Rodolfo Aguero (no relation to the corporal--J.T.) and Walter Ortega." "Aguero was asleep and Ortega went out to check after hearing noises from the back of their living unit." "'I woke up all of a sudden,' said Aguero, who estimated that the sound originated ''from the next bedroom roof' and sounded like '10 or 15 people stamping at the same time.'" "The man added that Ortega, who is still under sedation, told him that as he was going outside, 'a force lifted him in the air and threw him against a tree limb, which shattered from the impact and caused his injuries.' The men summoned (police) driver Mario Aragon, who was off-duty at the time, and told him to head urgently for the guardhouse." Aragon contacted the main police headquarters, and three cruisers and "15 to 20 policemen reported to the scene, combing the vicinity and coming up emptyhanded. Both men (Aguero and Ortega) were treated and sent home yesterday afternoon." (See the newspaper La Gaceta of San Miguel de Tucuman, Argentina for July 12, 2000. Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Gloria Coluchi para eso articulo.) (Editor's Comment: If Diablillo tries any of this at a precinct house in Brooklyn, he's going to get his ass handed to him in three or four pieces.) FIVE CROP CIRCLES FOUND IN ASHERN, MANITOBA On Friday, July 7, 2000, CBC Radio reported that five crop circles had been found in Canada. The formations were found in Ashern, Manitoba (population 620), a small town on Provincial Highway 6 about 75 miles (120 kilometers) northwest of Winnipeg. The circles were discovered in mid-June, and the case is being investigated by cerealogist Fern Belzill and Chris Rutkowski of Ufology Research of Manitoba. According to Paul Anderson of Circles Phenomenon Research-Canada, the formations consisted of "five doughnut-shaped rings, including one 'half-crescent' averaging 15 feet (4.6 meters) in diameter in pasture vegetation--wild grass bearberry and saskatoon bushes. First found by bird-watchers in mid-June, the rings appeared to be fairly old, perhaps six to 12 months, , and appear as a darkening of the vegetation, not flattened as in typical crop circles, more like the 'old style' UGMs (Unidentified Ground Markings, also known as "saucer nests"--J.T.) The circles are in a remote area east of Ashern." (Many thanks to Paul Anderson of CPR- Canada for this report.) from the UFO Files... 1881: A POSSIBLE ABDUCTION IN SOUTHERN WISCONSIN Just off Highway 151, midway between Platteville (population 9,800) and Belmont (population 80) lie two ancient mounds, the scene of a very strange incident back in 1881. "These mounds are 1,420 and 1,380 feet above sea level. In 1827 Major John H. Rountree and a friend, exploring in the region, climbed one of them to view the surrounding country and carved their names in rocks where Indian signal fires once burned. Rountree later became owner of one of the most profitable mines in the Platteville district." No one knows who actually reared the mounds. They were already old when the Lakota people (also known as the Sioux Indians) arrived in Wisconsin in 600 A.D. Some theorize that the mounds were erected by a mysterious people known to the Ganegahaga (also known as the Mohawk Indians) as the Ot-ne-yarheh. Curious-looking artifacts of the pre-Columbian Greenwood culture--mostly diamond-shaped knives and pendants--have been found at the site. According to historian Erva Loomis Merow of Kenosha, Wis., the stone farmhouse nearest the mounds was purchased by a young German farmer named Karl Nodolf, "who went back to Germany to marry" his intended bride "and bring her back. He arrived there only to discover that his bride-to-be had died of diphtheria weeks before...Slowly Karl lifted himself out of his grief to discover that, of his bride-to-be's family, only two people had survived, her mother and a young sister. Karl looked at the sister, just sixteen years old, and onceagain the (Wisconsin) farm became a beautiful dream. He asked the mother and sister, called Louise, to go back to Wisconsin with him." Karl and Louise married, and in 1877, their first child, daughter Minnie Louise, was born. Two years later, in 1879, their son Louis was born. "Minnie and Louie Nodolf were to become the center of a legend--a legend which still lives among the people near the Mound." One night in June of 1881, a thuderstorm passed over the farm. "Louise and Karl put their two children," Minnie Louise, age 4, and Louis, 2, "to bed upstairs. This night the wind had become stronger after dark, so Karl locked every shutter tight. They went back downstairs to sit before the fire, reading and sewing." "Usually Louise liked to mend, but tonight the wind howled like a fall blizzard, instead of a June thunderstorm. They stayed up longer than usual because the wind became so intense. Great streaks of lightning and cracks of thunder filled the air. Finally Karl decided it was just another summer storm, and they prepared for bed." "Karl closed the shutters at the windows and barred the doors securely. Louise, carrying a lamp, led the way upstairs. She covered the children and soon they were all asleep." "Toward morning a very loud crack of thunder woke Louise and Karl. Louise said she heard Minnie crying for her and ran to her bed. Neither Minnie nor Louie were in their beds. She lighted a lamp and looked around the room, thinking they must have been frightened by the storm and gotten out of bed. They were not in their room." Then, between the battering of the wind and cracking thunder, they heard the children crying They listened, unbelieving. Karl ran to the door, sliding the heavy bar back. He swung it open and there, outside on the step, stood Minnie and Louie!" "'Children!' cried Louise, and they carried them in by the fire." "'Wrap them up,' began Louise, 'I'll get their dry--'" "She couldn't go on, for Karl was feeling their nightgowns. He touched Minnie's hair. 'You don't have to get dry clothes, Louise. They're not one bit wet!'" "'But that's not possible. It's pouring rain,' whispered Louise." "'How did they get out there, Louise? That's not possible either,' said Karl." Kneeling before her daughter, Louise said, "'Minnie! Minnie, how did you get outside?'" "'I-I-I-I don-don-don-don't kno-kno-know,' stuttered Minnie." "'Karl!' screamed Louise, 'She's stuttering!'" "So she was. And so was Louie, just learning to talk. Both were stuttering for the first time. From that moment on, they stuttered. Of the eight children born to Louise and Karl, Minnie and Louie were the only ones who stutter, and they do, still, to this day." (Editor's Comment: What do you think, child psychology majors? Evidence of trauma?) "Every window in the house had been closed. The doors were barred with high sliding bars. It was impossible for the children, four and two years old, to open them, get out, and then slide the bar back into place. Everything was locked from within." "Did Minnie and Louie somehow get out of the house, locked from within? Why, then, weren't they wet? The children couldn't explain how they got outside. Not that night, nor in the many years to come. Yet they were so frightened they stuttered from that night on!" (See the Book Wisconsin Lore by Robert E. Gard and L.C. Serden, Duell, Sloan and Pierce, Inc., New York, N.Y. 1962, pages 37 to 40. Also Wisconsin: A Guide to the Prairie State, Hastings House, New York, N.Y. 1954, page 429.) Well, that's it for this week. Join us in seven days for more UFO and paranormal news from around the planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup." See you then. UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2000 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on their websites or in newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared... ********************************************************* IMPORTANT Please Read: ====================== The Hunger Site --------------- http://www.thehungersite.com Every 3.6 seconds somebody starves to death. 3/4 of the deaths are children under 5. By visiting the Hunger Site and clicking on a button you can donate free food. There is absolutely no charge to you for the donation - the food is paid for by sponsors. Do this once a day (no more) and help make a difference! If you have a web site download a banner and give a link! ********************************************************* E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com> or use the Sighting Report Form at: http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com> UFOINFO: http://ufoinfo.com Official Archives of the UK UFO Network Bulletin, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine also available, plus archives of Filer's Files.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Re: Abductees From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 05:34:21 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:48:42 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductees >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:36:56 -0700 >From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> >Subject: Re: Abductees >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Speaking of hypnotherapy, Mike said: >Actually, the answer, IMHO, is, to get your subconscious mind to >let go of its attachments to all of the negative experiences, >generally having occured in this particular incarnation (from my >clients experience), which programmed it (the subconscious mind >is also the body by the way) to believe that you are unworthy of >love. >One example I can cite, to prove my point here, is my first >paying hypnotherapy client. He came to me for body tension. He >would go out and get drunk and call me up for a session. His >father had abused him quite a bit as a child. Because his >conscious mind couldn't let go of control I was unable to use >the regression/release technique taught to me by Ed Martin of >Kingwood, Texas. Instead I had to only give him positive >affirmations concerning self-love. At the end of each session I >would ask him how the world was treating him. He wouldn't say a >word, until the end of the fourth session. His reply then was >that he felt better about life than he'd ever felt before, even >though he was still unemployed. I never heard from him after >this 4th session and fully believe he was cured of his problem. >Mike Beaver >yoda@foxinternet.net >http://web3.foxinternet.net/yoda/index.html >ICQ # 15482206 Mike- Your points are well taken, and there is indeed a limited success rate for those seeking help through hypnotherapy for a variety of ailments. However, I haven't seen any indication that abduction researchers are actually using hypnosis as a form of therapy. To my knowledge, hypnosis is used as a research tool to gather information from the sub-conscious, and not to make the abductee feel better, per se. Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Re: John Carpenter - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:47:29 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:52:22 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: John Carpenter - Hammond >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 20:53:58 -0500 >From: Gary Hart <geehart@FRONTIERNET.NET> >Subject: John Carpenter [was: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children] >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:03:04 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >I'm now a member of this mail list and can respond to messages >and directly to questions as I have all the evidence about >Carpenter in my possession. I wrote the 47 page report with 231 >pages of supporting documents that was delivered to John >Schuessler on Saturday morning, July 15, just before the opening >of the MUFON 2000 Symposium. Dear List: Right now all I can think of to say is "Oh My God!" This man is now labeling himself a hobbyist! And this is supposed to make his actions OK? I say we get the tar bucket, chickens and a nice sharp rail, _now_! More later, I'm sure, after the shock wears off. And John Velez, you were doing an even greater service than any of us dreamed possible. You deserve another round of thanks for breaking this rotten egg open! Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Re: Abductees - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 10:41:21 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:56:18 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductees - Mortellaro >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:50:04 -0400 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Re: Abductees >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 15:22:25 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: Abductees >>To: updates@sympatico.ca <snip> >>Liz' words should be emblazoned in platimum across the foreheads >>of everyone seeking information on what it's like to be a >>perceived abductee. My personal suggestion to researchers who >>are not aware, to look carefully at her post. Which is the main >>reason I post this response. >First off, that comment about not speaking for me should have >been a bit less stark. It happened that I opened your post at a >bad time, and had gotten in a nasty mood. Sorry if you felt I >took it out on you. <snip> >So Jim, if you don't mind, I'll contact you and we'll put our >heads together on this. I think everyone having a more full >picture of the reality of all this is going to be helpful for us >all. Abductees, skeptics, etc. There is so much more to this >than : "The greys show up in your bedroom, float you out to a >spacship, stick things where the sun don't shine, float you back >to bed and tuck you in". That's just a _fraction_ of what goes >on! As well as these health issues. We aren't talking a few >sinus headaches. These are serious, life altering, usually >painfull conditions. And only a fraction of the Community even >knows it's happening. It's time to do something to change all >that. Doing things like this is how you empower yourself. Taking >care of yourself and your own, right? Dear Liz, Abductees with sanity intact, Lister Twisters and EBK, Sorry to snip the whole post away, but rather than waste readers' time, I say, "OK!" Write me anytime. First, during my research for my own writings, I've changed direction several times and was able to interview a number of people regarding their own experiences. This was to place my own experiences and of course, the experiences of others, on the more solid ground of shared, similar experiences. This gives me a small but interesting database from which to expound. You wrote: "I beleive some researchers are basically picking one from column a and one from column B and anything that doesn't fit right in there is just discarded." Which is only one of the reasons I do not always appreciate the conclusions drawn by researchers. Only one. There are others. Second, and quoting you again: "Truth us, _we_ know better than any of them what's really happening." This has always rang true with me. It fits my own theory that the best researcher in this field, in some cases, is the experiencer him or herself. I use that word because it is descriptive, not necessarily because I adhere to the ideas of certain researchers. Ain't it about time we took charge of our own selves, investigated our own experiences, compiled a database of our own, come out of the closets some of us us are hiding in, et al? You wrote: "Maybe a lot of people just can't come out right now, Jim." Of course. But many can. Those people need to know they are not alone. They need to see that others suffer the same or similarly. Feel free to contact me. Like the schwarts, I am with you. Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Felder From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@nokomis.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 10:29:43 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:58:47 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Felder >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 07:57:50 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Major UFO Incident & Video Footage - Reflections >To: updates@sympatico.ca >No offense EBK, but this list seems to becoming more and more of >a place to plug books, lecture dates and conferences and less >and less about sharing info. Almost every time we begin to get >to the meat of something, the discussion is abruptly interrupted >by something like, "Check out my book if you want to know more." >Still, I'm happy that new footage exists, even if it is being >held for ransom. ;) I don't think it is just this List. It seems to be the trend all over the place. It seems that the study/investigation of UFOs has the place. It seems that the study/investigation of UFOs has become a self-perpetuating industry. It makes little peons like me out here in the general public wonder quite a lot as to whether anyone is actually trying to solve any of the myriad of mysteries surrounding the UFO phenomenon, or as they all just trying to hit the lecture/conference/book signing tours? I don't mean to offend anyone, but that's the truth to the matter from a non-researcher, general consumer public person standpoint. Bobbie Bobbie "Jilain" Felder --->backwoods of Mississippi --->USA --->planet Earth --->somewhere in the cosmos http://www.jilain.com http://www.ufohoax.com http://www.dragoncrest.net ICQ #7524076 ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers, And things are not what they seem.~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:30:02 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 12:21:46 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Hammond >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 23:03:20 -0400 (EDT) >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:25:21 -0500 (CDT) >>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >>>Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:13:59 +0100 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>>>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:32:11 -0400 >>>>From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >>>>Subject: Abductee Files/Our Children >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>The article continues with "A key section of Carpenter's talk >>>>centered around accounts given by child contactees. " >>>>"There was 5-year-old " >>>>"An 8-year-old boy " >>>>"A 3-year-old " >>>>How many more children are among the 140 cases sold to NIDS? >>>There must obviously be a gross mistake here and we seriously >>>aren't talking about children so young as 8 years old, let alone >>>3-year-olds, in any such context, whatsoever. >>>If there are in fact children who have in any way been involved >>>with 'alien abductions/contactee research', can someone please >>>confirm precisely what they were asked to participate in, who >>>the interviewers were and whether hypnosis was ever employed. Dear Ann, Chris, James, Jim and List: I was going to write this to the List about this last night, but was unable to reach either parent to get permission to speak about their child until this morning. Obviously, the child will remain anonymous. This child, age 6, is suffering terribly due to abduction problems. She is unable to sleep through the night, and is often "away" during the time she should be asleep so she suffers from sleep deprivation. She and Mom have often been abducted together, with the poor Mother being forced to watch them insert an "implant" into her daughters nose. She is often exhausted during the day, and due to this she has been unable to attend school. She has been diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder as well as Panic Attacks. She cannot bear to let her Mother out of her sight and Mom is rarely able to go anywhere without her as Mom's absence often triggers a panic attack. This is the cutest, brightest little child you ever saw, and she is suffering deeply. No one has ever told her about abductions. On the contrary, she has been telling her parents about them since around age 2. At that time, she was talking about the "little Doctors" who came to take her. (Sound familiar?) Of course, the parents are walking a tightrope here. They don't want to 'lie' to the child, yet they also don't want to reinforce any of the abduction-related issues. At this point, the child being 6, they openly acknowledge her abductions, but try not to talk about it around her. They try to make it as much of a non-issue as possible. They have been lucky to have found a child psychiatrist who supports the reality of what's happening. Hopefully, this person can help her integrate some of this so she can begin to live a more normal life. As it is now, she can't attend school, is usually too exhausted to go out and play. In short, her childhood is effectively being stolen from her. This child will _not_ be undergoing hypnosis! If anything, the parents want to minimize this issue, while still being supportive of what she is going through. Her parents, and myself, too, don't believe that children should be made part of any research studies. Their minds are being messed with enough without adding anything to it. Hypnosis, regression, any of the tools commonly used have no place what so ever when dealing with children. Children, in fact, IMHO, have no place participating in any kind of research study. In my opinion, and this is just my opinion, it is an act bordering on malpractice to subject any child to these methods. The issue is, and should always be, the best interests of the child, period. I just don't see how reinforcing any of the frightening things the child may be experiencing can be of any help for him/her. Dealing with the problems and symptoms related to Child Abduction, helping the child to gain some peace and working with the child so he or she can live a more normal life should be the first and only priority. There are many, many adult abductees out there and each of us was once a child. Most, if not all of us, were child abductees. This little girl is fortunate in that she has parents who understand and can relate to what she is suffering. One of the parents also being an Abductee helps. Most of us lived through miserable childhoods. Being abducted at all times of the day or night. Missing hours of time which we could not account for. I received some terrible beatings over all this. What young child, knowing the kind of child abuse it bought on would disappear, alone, for several hours, and then upon returning not be able to say where they were? I would think once would be enough! However, this happened to me many times over. I would be missing for hours, the police would be called in, I would be found, usually asleep on my bed, and then the beating would begin! My parents insisted I must have snuck in one of the doors, snuck upstairs, and went to sleep. The beating was always harsher as I could not tell them what they wanted to know, I just couldn't remember where I had been. We would also be the object of ridicule if we ever dared to tell any friend what was happening. This is where we all learned to compartmentalize. This is why we all have our "Secret Life". It usually takes many years into adulthood to overcome the trauma of childhood and seek out some form of help. For most, if not all of us, that help usually takes the form of one of the researchers whose book we may have read. Given all this, it's a bit easier to understand why so many of us are deeply horrified at the thought that one of these researchers may have 'betrayed us'. But most especially, that they apparently have done this to children, too! It's all just too horrifying! As for the little girl I've told you about, I remember her every day in my form of prayer, and I hope you will too. No child should ever have to suffer as this child does. She should be swimming in the pool, riding her bike, playing Barbie with her friends, getting ready for kindergarten. Not living with this huge burden on her tiny shoulders. If you've never seen a young child having a panic attack, you are lucky. A more heartrending scene is hard to imagine. Hopefully, with the help of her loving parents, caring doctors and all the many people who are pulling for her and all the children like her, this little girl will soon be enjoying what most take for granted. A happy, safe, "normal" childhood. Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Paper Presented by Michigan UFO CENTRAL From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 13:36:36 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 21:25:39 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Paper Presented by Michigan UFO CENTRAL An interesting paper has been made available to Michigan UFO CENTRAL written by Richard Spalding - Senior Engineer at Sandia Labs in New Mexico titled "Ion-Based Conductions in the Atmosphere - A Geophysical Explanation for Atmospheric Enigmas". It can be viewed in its entirety at the link listed below. http://members.home.net/tlemire/ibconduct.html Although there are some points of the paper that I disagree with, it does show an interest in this phenomena by a reputable government employee and scientist. His hypothesis, if ever proven, could also narrow down our search, and help concentrate our efforts, in studying those cases that defy his hypothesis. Overall his work is interesting. Todd Lemire Michigan UFO CENTRAL http://members.home.net/tlemire/UFOCENTRAL.html -- "We would rather, I suspect, fear the unknown than convert it to the known. What we may fear more deeply than the unknown itself is the prospect of actually knowing it. Happily for all of us there are people like yourself who refuse to be bound by such mass refusal of reality, who are not afraid to seek and learn." Coral Lorenzen : Flying Saucers - The Startling Evidence of The Invasion from Outer Space
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 13:51:42 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 21:31:36 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes Regarding the 'major UFO incident'. I think this is a classic case of hype over content and a perfect example of how easily the media allow themselves to be manipulated and of how stupid ufologists can be. For those who haven't seen the video what you get is..... a distant 'silvery' blob. It's below lowish cloud cover - probably below 2000 feet. Other than that there's not much you can reasonably say. Whatever it is clearly very small, probably not more than a foot or two across at most and of an indistinct shape. Yes, it's a 'UFO' in the literal sense. But it hardly constitutes a 'major UFO incident' alert. In essence it's the sort of video most ufologists receive several times a year. Based on the evidence available it would seem to be a small silvery coated object. The time and date of the event, ie early Sunday afternoon in summer, makes it a strong possibility it is a kids' helium balloon released at a summer fair. There is also small possibility it is one of the most excellent 'UFO Sam' kites which, in my experience, look almost identical to this video. What the video does not display is any form of craft under any form of intelligent control. And I'm being charitable here. When blown up a zillion times it attains Roscharch blot status and I swear I could see Elvis waving! BUFOSC are, I suppose, to be congratulated for pulling the wool over the media's eyes and for making a fast buck out of a slow week. Whether they show the same determination in trying to ascertain what the object actually was, remains to be seen. From the point of view of ethical and professional ufology the main question buzzing across UFO discussion lists seems to be: "Why didn't they get it analysed before going to the media." Why indeed. Also, UFO Magazine's Russ Callaghan has been quoted by BUFOSC as saying it is: "the best footage I have ever seen." Did you say that Russ? Really? Can you comment as to _why_ you said that and how this differs from any other dodgy 'UFO' vid? Will UFO Magazine be selling this video by the pound as they do so many other 'UFO' videos? Has any _real_ investigation ben done on this case? Will anyone ever see it? Is less than two weeks _really_ a long enough time to evaluate and investigate a case before making a media splash and luring a "forty strong crowd" to a Church Hall? The Daily Mail allege 'such footage has never been shot in the UK before' - which is blatant rubbish, but sells papers. Is money what this is all about? Eric Morris stated that 'I have never seen anything like it in 22 years of researching this phenomena (sic)... It is definitely not a hoax. Most certainly not.' How do Eric and BUFOSC _know_ it's not a hoax if they don't know _what_ it is? Ufologists' logic never fails to amaze me. There are also a couple of other facts about this case which haven't made it into the media or the saucer world as yet but I'll leave you with them. Enjoy..... * The guy who took the video is called Karl Woods * Karl Woods is a good friend of Eric Morris * Eric Morris is one of the grande fromages at BUFOSC who are fervently promoting the video * When Eric Morris reported this case over a week ago to another ufologist from the northwest Eric stated that in the background of the tape can be heard a scanner and a pilot allegedly reporting a UFO being chased * Neither Eric, Tim , BUFOSC, the media or indeed anyone has mentioned this since. Was this a different case? (no). Was Eric telling fibs? (maybe). Will this be 'revealed' when the case flags? (perhaps). * The term 'falling leaf' motion has been used to describe the object on the video. A classic ufological term not heard in most parts for years * The term 'falling leaf' has occurred in another recent UFO case not forty miles from the Cheshire 'major UFO incident'. This case is widely believed to be a hoax * BUFOSC and MAPIT were also staunch promoters of the 'Winter Hill' case from last year (also within the same general area as this 'major' incident). This case also took place suspiciously close to a UFO conference promoted by one of the case's investigators. What happened to that? * Am I too suspicious, paranoid, or what? Sceptical ufologists everywhere have their art pads out and are drawing their own conclusions about what is going on among certain sections of the UFO community in Cheshire/Lancashire! Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: UFOCAT Website From: Bruno Mancusi <Bruno.Mancusi@com.mcnet.ch> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:55:38 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 21:36:13 -0400 Subject: UpDate: UFOCAT Website Dear list members, Now you can see UFOCAT on line! http://www.ufocat.ch/ or in English: http://www.ufocat.ch/hello.htm As UFOCAT is a saucer-like food bowl for cats... The invention and the price are typically Swiss: CHF 147 or $88:00 Bruno
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 14:39:30 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 21:55:43 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:25:21 -0500 (CDT) >From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: updates@sympatico.ca >The abduction of children by aliens is accepted as fact by most >abduction "experts" and propagated among avid readers of the UFO >genre and those listening with rapt attention to lectures about >these claims. Of course, as I have pointed out in various >publications, it doesn't seem logical to embrace these stories >without much thought. Note the mildly derisive tone. >One person who has noted children's abductions is John Mack: >"A two-year-old boy that I interviewed said that he was taken >into the sky by a man who bit his nose. A not-yet-three-year-old >boy said that owls with big eyes (it is common for children to >remember the alien beings disguised in animal forms) take him up >to a ship in the sky, and he is afraid he will not be able to >get back to his mother." >Mack, John. (1992). Why the abduction phenomenon cannot be >explained psychiatrically. PEER. Website: >www.peer-mack.org/mit92.html Interesting citation. Budd has also written about alleged abductions of children, and a quote from his writing would very likely seem more persuasive. To quote a passage only about reports from two year-olds more or less loads the dice -- who in their right mind would, if these were the only reports being considered, take any of this seriously? >But as I noted in my most recent book: >"As for abductions occurring in children as young as three years >old, I can only note that in my own experiences with >three-year-old children, I have found they can come up with some >really imaginative things. >For example, when I asked my three-year-old what he had for >lunch, I could easily convince him that he had a grilled-cheese >sandwich, when he really had eaten spaghetti (and vice-versa). >Sometimes, he even gave me a wrong answer without any prompting. >So, I personally have to doubt whether or not the testimony of a >young child in recalling an alien abduction is very accurate. >Yet, Mack has described abduction experiences in even younger >children." I'm extraordinarily surprised to read this from someone as sensible as Chris. Not that he's wrong -- it's just that what he's writing here is, to put it mildly, not exactly news. Moreover, it's written without any reference whatever to what's surely a large body of literature on children's accuracy. There surely are papers in psychological journals, and also law journals, given the number of children who've testified in court cases about sexual abuse. I've read enough here and there to know this is a very complex issue. In no way can it be adequately dealt with by telling a couple of personal anecdotes. What Chris gives us, in the end, is no more than this: John Mack believes two year-olds when they report what sound like abductions. However, I, Chris Rutkowski, have been able to get my own three year-old to believe things that aren't true. So we can't believe John Mack. Which leaves the larger subject of children's abductions almost entirely untouched. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Anonymity and Sharing? From: Bill Weber <wweber1@sc.rr.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 16:22:30 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 21:57:02 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Anonymity and Sharing? One of the things I've been wondering about since this witness anonymity business broke, is why in the years I've been reading this List, some basic steps of formal research apparently haven't been applied to abduction research. I'm certainly no research genius, but I did manage to complete a thesis. After explaining my intentions and getting each to sign off on permission, I asked 42 respondents how often they committed an act that other studies correlated with a particular, sleazy, business practice I was interested in, then guaranteed anonymity, honored it, and managed to share an executive summary of the data (none of which could identify an individual respondent) with the research and business community I was involved with - and with the respondents themselves. Why does this seem to be such an impossibly complex problem in abduction research? It's _not_ that hard. This is being done over and over in every Department of anything, everywhere - on subjects at least as personally dangerous as abduction - and performed pretty effectively by hungover kids to boot. Why _can't_ abduction research guarantee anonymity so things like that won't happen, and still share results? Everyone else is doing it. I don't get it. What is it that's _not_ being said? Best, Bill My friends, no matter how rough the road may be, we can and we will never, never surrender to what is right. -- Vice President Dan Quayle speaking to the Christian Coalition
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Re: John Carpenter - Keith From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 13:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 21:59:53 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: John Carpenter - Keith >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 20:53:58 -0500 >From: Gary Hart <geehart@FRONTIERNET.NET> >Subject: John Carpenter [was: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children] >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >_Yes_, I hope John Schuessler and the other Ethics Review >Committee members do a thorough check of the facts I presented >and make a decisive and timely judgement. MUFON's Code of Ethics >may need some changes. Certainly all officials need to sign a >form to indicate them have read it and will conform to it. More importantly, as a Licensed Clinical Social Worker in the state of Missouri, John Carpenter has a few other ethical standards to uphold -- whether he's participating in a hobby or helping paying clients! The laws, to my knowledge, don't make any distinction. Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Bigelow By Phone From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:07:13 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:08:44 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Bigelow By Phone >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:50:55 -0400 >From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >Subject: NIDS Discussion Forum >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Dear List Members, >I just posted a message on the NIDS Discussion Forum. >Regardless of your position on abductions, other bizarre aspects >of this field, or me<g>, please back me up. >The title of my message is: 120 Families Need to Know >http://www.nidsci.org/resources/forum/Read/ >Hopefully the message will still be there. >Thanks in advance, >Ann Well, not only is my message and other messages not there, but the whole damn board is gone. LOL! So, I called NIDS..... The gal who answered the NIDS telephone told me that Mr. Bigelow's office can be reached at: 702-456-1606. I called and left a message with the receptionist because Mr. Bigelow's secretary was "in a meeting". I left a complete message including my full name and telephone number [which she asked for], urging Mr. Bigelow to contact the 120 families etc..... Please pick up your phone and make this call!! Until we're told that these families have been reached we _must_ keep up the heat. Remember those children and pick up your phone, _please_. Unless you're calling from outside the US, the cost of leaving this message is probably close to buying your own kid a Happy Meal at McDonalds. If the cost of the call is something you can't handle, email me and we'll work something out. Thanks, Ann
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 20 UpDate: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? From: UFO UpDates - Toronto Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:17:06 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:17:06 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? SUMMER CAMP FOR KID E.T. ABDUCTEES SANTA CRUZ, Calif. -- When E.T. phones home this summer, he may be calling from Santa Cruz, California. That's where a UFO researcher is holding the world's first summer school for kids of E.T. origin. Dr. Richard Boylan's space-age summer school is for children who have been genetically modified by aliens. Boylan claims these so-called "star kids" are not only brighter than other kids, they can have strange superpowers such as levitation, invisibility and teleportation. Besides reenacting their alien encounters via puppets and role-playing, students will listen to lectures including one titled, "From Fraidy-Cat To Cosmic Kid: What's It All About." The E.T. Summer School Weekend will take place August 25. CONTACT: Dr. Richard Boylan, Sacramento, CA; (916) 422-7479
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 21 UpDate: Re: Abductees - Beaver From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:28:50 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 08:36:37 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductees - Beaver Dear Steve, Tim, Liz and all: >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 05:34:21 -0400 >From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >Subject: Re: Abductees >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> My own previous post, for which this (below) is a reply, I have edited out for brevity. >Your points are well taken, and there is indeed a limited >success rate for those seeking help through hypnotherapy for a >variety of ailments. However, I haven't seen any indication >that abduction researchers are actually using hypnosis as a >form of therapy. To my knowledge, hypnosis is used as a >research tool to gather information from the sub-conscious, and >not to make the abductee feel better, per se. In most cases you are correct. If you had be INTO hypnotherapy for any length of time you would know that there are some hypnotherapists who primarily work with abductees on a therapeutic level, rather than on a research level. They may attend UFO meetings and such out of their own curiosity, but don't necessarily consider themselves as researchers. I am one of those. Though we are the exception to the rule I think you would be EXTREMELY surprised what we have uncovered that the so called researchers have left uncovered. The one lady I spoke of has been my only abductee client so far. But, if I could pick any abductee on the planet to work with she would be the one I picked. She had previously worked with a very well known UFO researcher who really did a very poor job at uncovering what she knew. He is an excellent hypnotist, but he really didn't spend the time with her necessary to do the story justice. I hope to have her story published in a book one day. There will, of course, be NO reference to who she is in the book. I finished the book about 6 months ago and have put out a few feelers for possible publishers. I believe her information about the Greys will take UFOlogy to the next level. But then that story is only one chapter in the book. My own 2 very close encounters will also change things on a big scale if they ever surface. The government has already covered up my story once. If you want to know more about my encounters you might ask John Scheussler. He was the primary investigator of my case; though I swore him and his cohorts to secrecy back in 1981. "They" said you guys/gals weren't ready back then. I don't know if you are now or not. Hopefully we will see soon enough. Anyway, back to answering your question about hypnotherapy and abductees. I talk with other abductees over the web. This one above and one of the the others I keep up with both state that the greys use hypnosis to program people so that the memories are forgotten. According to my one client fear is programmed around any details that they don't want you to remember. It took 5 or 6 sessions before she was able to see their faces, even though she was able to get through the events without much problem. What I did, as far as being of a therapeutic value, in this particular case, was to take her to these points of detail, like when she saw a plaque on the wall inside the space ship, but couldn't see any details of it, and told her that when I counted from 1 to 3, or vice versa, that she would be able to see what was there without any problems. This technique didn't allow her to see the details many times. Sometimes it did work though. I believe that to completely deprogram her hypnosis programming that they gave her would take an extremely long time, maybe even a lifetime. She originally came to me for issues unrelated to being an abductee. She never told me she was abductee until it came up in relation to her other issues that she was trying to resolve. So, from the beginning I was working as a therapist and not a researcher. But, when it was necessary for her to do so, and she admitted that she was an abductee, I then started working with her in a research modality without charging her a fee. And, in doing so I tried to break her programming as much as a I could while recovering very valuable information that only she possessed. After one free session she paid me a fee even larger than what I normally charge, even though I wasn't expecting a dime. She did so because of the positive physical and psychological benefit she received from the deprogramming of the fear that I did with her. She has no desire to have her name known regarding these very long term breeding activities. I definitely believe the greys are MORE than one race because of details about their operations that don't match from one abductee to the next. Some of these details are very big (like working with the reptilians/or not) and some are small (like using a device on their waste to perform certain tasks/or not). I know of another hypnotherapist who attends Peter Davenport's NUFORC meetings that has worked with over a hundred abductees. I'm fairly certain that most of this work is of a therapeutic nature as well. And now onto the other 2 posts I would like to respond to. I have only posted a couple times to the list so far, but I couldn't pass this one up. First I will post very brief pieces of what Tim and Liz had to say about children and hypnosis/UFO research. Dear Tim: >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:48:03 -0500 >From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Hi Greg, >I value your opinions and thoughtful comments, but I strongly >differ with your opinion that it's acceptable to have 'abduction >investigators' dealing with children in any way. He goes on to talk about how amateur hypnotists with very little training could be messing with the minds of children in the name of UFO research. and.... >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:30:02 -0400 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >They have been lucky to have found a >child psychiatrist who supports the reality of what's happening. >Hopefully, this person can help her integrate some of this so >she can begin to live a more normal life. >This child will _not_ be undergoing hypnosis! If anything, the >parents want to minimize this issue, while still being >supportive of what she is going through. Her parents, and >myself, too, don't believe that children should be made part of >any research studies. Their minds are being messed with enough >without adding anything to it. Hypnosis, regression, any of the >tools commonly used have no place what so ever when dealing with >children. Children, in fact, IMHO, have no place participating >in any kind of research study. In my opinion, and this is just >my opinion, it is an act bordering on malpractice to subject any >child to these methods. First to Tim: Though I can certainly understand your fear where amateur hypnotherapy goes I thought I would fill in some things you might not be aware of in regard to its use. 1) The cost of malpractice insurance for hypnotists is VERY much less than for any other type of therapy/medical practice that I'm aware of. Insurance companies aren't about to charge less if the risks are equal to or greater than for other MDs, PhDs etc. As the risks are FAR less so is the cost for insurance. 2) I know of one hypnotherapist, now deceased, who had a very successful practice for many years without even a single class or any training whatsoever. Many of the skills used in hypnotherapy are gained while practicing it. They aren't taught by even the most adept teachers of the art. They must be learned on the job. One I use personally, which was never taught to me, was the usage of the higher self, when the subconscious mind gets to be like your mother, only much worse, as far as being overly protective. Though this aspect of the self is hard for many scientific types to believe it has come in handy at times for me at least. No school teaches this sort of thing though. Next to Liz: I know of one very controversial psychiatrist who, after working in psychiatry for many years, learned that hypnotherapy was FAR more effective at healing than psychiatry ever thought about being. On the other hand I know one hypnotist who says that talk therapy can be effective in some cases. He's rather controversial as well. In ANY case I would personally put hypnotherapy up against any form of psychology, psychiatry or any other type of therapy in dealing with the integration of abduction experiences or in dealing with any illness or malady mankind has ever had. Nothing can ever beat working directly with the subconscious/body in dealing with suppressed issues or issues that are remembered or issues that were hypnotically suppressed on purpose by the abductors. They are much better than we are at using hypnosis. But, without that tool, it's like going into battle without a weapon; we thus don't stand a chance. In psychiatry this person/child will spend their life trying to integrate that which they: 1) don't understand 2) can't comprehend 3) have suppressed themselves 4) or has been hypnotically suppressed by their abductors Your story, Liz, was one of the best insights I've ever heard of into what goes on inside a family when abductions are prevalent. Thank you very much for posting it. And please tell the family that I said, "Good luck." They will need it in trying to get their child to integrate his/her stuff without hypnotherapy. That's sort of like running up hill on wet pavement, in slippery shoes. You may one day get to the top. But there are much easier, and far cheaper, ways to do so. Sincerely; Mike Beaver yoda@foxinternet.net http://web3.foxinternet.net/yoda/index.html ICQ # 15482206
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 21 UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:19:31 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 08:39:18 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Mortellaro >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 16:22:30 -0400 >From: Bill Weber <wweber1@sc.rr.com> >Subject: Anonymity and Sharing? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >One of the things I've been wondering about since this witness >anonymity business broke, is why in the years I've been reading >this List, some basic steps of formal research apparently >haven't been applied to abduction research. I'm certainly no >research genius, but I did manage to complete a thesis. After >explaining my intentions and getting each to sign off on >permission, I asked 42 respondents how often they committed an >act that other studies correlated with a particular, sleazy, >business practice I was interested in, then guaranteed >anonymity, honored it, and managed to share an executive summary >of the data (none of which could identify an individual >respondent) with the research and business community I was >involved with - and with the respondents themselves. Why does >this seem to be such an impossibly complex problem in abduction >research? It's _not_ that hard. >This is being done over and over in every Department of >anything, everywhere - on subjects at least as personally >dangerous as abduction - and performed pretty effectively by >hungover kids to boot. Why _can't_ abduction research guarantee >anonymity so things like that won't happen, and still share >results? Everyone else is doing it. I don't get it. What is >it that's _not_ being said? Dear Bill, Listers and EBK, Most likely, Bill, it has little to do with the degree of difficulty of the act of maintaining non disclosure. It has to do with money. In the face of growing debt, not being able to handle one's financial obligations and finding it more and more difficult to manage - selling what you have is a simple solution. Selling it to someone with deep pockets, such as Bigelow, who is in the business of researching the phenom, is even easier. After all (playing the devil's advocate) NIDS is a righteous organization, and they would _never_ do anything untoward with my data. Well then, why not? If the allegations are true, and the degree of responsibility extant in this society of ours is as I believe it to be, then making the decision to get the money you need by dealing with NIDS is righteous. Of course, we know it ain't. But this is not a righteous society in which we live, is it? If one equates the manner in which we raise our kids, pay our taxes, obey our laws, honor our selves and the Big Guy what made us, with the manner in which we handle our responsibilities, then I would just not be surprised at what can and does happen. What surprises me is why so many people are as surprised as they are. Ah, but such a reaction is due to the higher moral fibers connecting your responsibilities with your character. As opposed to being the kind of character I am. Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 21 UpDate: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson@alienjigsaw.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:20:45 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:00:08 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files I have posted my comments regarding the sale of abductees' files from John Carpenter to Robert Bigelow. They can be read by clicking on: http://www.alienjigsaw.com/Part_I/carpenterbigelow.html This is a copyrighted article and may not be posted. Thank you, Katharina Wilson http://www.alienjigsaw.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 21 UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Walton From: Fran Walton <LWalton55@cs.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:35:45 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:06:12 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Walton >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 16:22:30 -0400 >From: Bill Weber <wweber1@sc.rr.com> >Subject: Anonymity and Sharing? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Why _can't_ abduction research guarantee anonymity so things >like that won't happen, and still share results? <snip> Hi Bill, IMO, they can, of course. I believe, though, that they feel acknowledging names or something else personal elevates the subject out of the "clinical study" arena into the "look, this is a real person" one. Sadly, this is at the expense of the individual and the unconscionable exploitation of the innocent children. Sincerely, Fran Walton
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 21 UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Myers From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:37:27 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:12:46 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Myers >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto >SUMMER CAMP FOR KID E.T. ABDUCTEES >SANTA CRUZ, Calif. -- When E.T. phones home this summer, he may >be calling from Santa Cruz, California. >That's where a UFO researcher is holding the world's first >summer school for kids of E.T. origin. >Dr. Richard Boylan's space-age summer school is for children who >have been genetically modified by aliens. >Boylan claims these so-called "star kids" are not only brighter >than other kids, they can have strange superpowers such as >levitation, invisibility and teleportation. >Besides reenacting their alien encounters via puppets and >role-playing, students will listen to lectures including one >titled, "From Fraidy-Cat To Cosmic Kid: What's It All About." >The E.T. Summer School Weekend will take place August 25. >CONTACT: Dr. Richard Boylan, >Sacramento, CA; (916) 422-7479 Boylan has landed himself a spot in the UFO Hall of Frauds, Dirtbags, Dupes and Morons. This guy is out of hand... Royce J. Myers III eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy - "Don't Trip On Your Open Mind...or your revoked licenses to practive psychology because you're a moron... eXpos News http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3 UFO Hall o' Shame http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 21 UpDate: U-WIRE: UFOs? The Scientific Community Cannot Be From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 03:00:57 +0000 (GMT) Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:15:04 -0400 Subject: UpDate: U-WIRE: UFOs? The Scientific Community Cannot Be Source: The Lantern via U-WIRE. Stig *** COLUMN: Can the scientific community be trusted? Updated 12:00 PM ET July 20, 2000 By John Gillanders The Lantern Ohio State U. (U-WIRE) COLUMBUS, Ohio -- The scientific community has always been quick to dismiss any kind of alternative viewpoint that threatens to throw the 'accepted' knowledge of the world into question. Sometimes this scurry to explain the unexplainable leads to leaps in logic that can only be described as laughable. This is the case with the latest report on new developments in the search for extraterrestrial intelligence. While browsing the magazine section at a local convenience store I happened to stumble upon a headline that deeply disturbed me. Right on the cover of the July issue of Scientific American appeared the declaration: "Alien Civilizations: if they exist why aren't they here?" I was intrigued. I just had to investigate the logic that would lead someone to make such an uninformed statement and get it published in a supposedly scientific publication. What I found was one of the most deliberately one-sided pieces of journalism I have encountered in my short existence. In the article entitled, "Where Are They? Maybe we are alone in the galaxy after all," Ian Crawford, University of London astronomy professor, briefly illustrates popular scientific research and viewpoints regarding this controversial issue. Throughout the piece he reviews data based on the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence program's new findings and astronomical data regarding the existence of planets outside of our solar system. In his opinion, he maintains, that based on these new findings the human race must face the possibility that we are the most advanced civilization in the galaxy. He bases much of his argument on the famous scientific 'paradox' voiced in 1950 by Enrico Fermi. Fermi's paradox basically states that if alien civilizations existed in the universe, their presence would be obvious. Crawford argues that since these new scientific findings don't point to any obvious presence of an alien civilization, they simply might not exist. He further goes on to suggest that we should continue expansion of the SETI program to find some obvious evidence. OK, this is ridiculous. No obvious evidence, who are they kidding? I'm no expert on the topic, but I do know that UFO sightings and reported alien abductions have been permeating our culture for nearly 50 years. The questions raised by these phenomenons are numerous and the answers don't exist. The number of people, pilots in particular, who have reported UFO sightings is enormous. In addition, nearly 1.5 million people in this country from all walks of life have reported supposed abductions, the psychological influence of which is easily measured. This is not to mention the fact that the military possesses literally thousands of pages of information regarding the existence of aliens, which they refuse to declassify to the general populace. It would be one thing to write an article of this nature and systematically discount these claims or argue against them with some type of reasoning. To simply ignore them and pretend that they don't exist is completely irresponsible and insulting to the general populace. Those who are putting their faith in the scientific community to save the world should take note: these people can't be trusted. (C) 2000 The Lantern via U-WIRE
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 21 UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Mulvey From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 23:38:53 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:17:02 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Mulvey >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto >SUMMER CAMP FOR KID E.T. ABDUCTEES >SANTA CRUZ, Calif. -- When E.T. phones home this summer, he may >be calling from Santa Cruz, California. >That's where a UFO researcher is holding the world's first >summer school for kids of E.T. origin. >Dr. Richard Boylan's space-age summer school is for children who >have been genetically modified by aliens. <snip> >The E.T. Summer School Weekend will take place August 25. >CONTACT: Dr. Richard Boylan, >Sacramento, CA; (916) 422-7479 How timely. Did somebody make a request to Dr. Boylan asking that he provide us with an excellent example of kids being abused in this field? Since I'm already on a phone roll, I called Dr. B.. It's $50 for the weekend. I asked if all the appropriate licenses were in place to hold such an event. He said he didn't know what I meant - that "this isn't a school - it's just a workshop". I thanked him and hung up. <g> If he's serving so much as a cracker during an event that is being publicized, he requires a food handling certificate - at least that's the procedure in Washington State. I imagine there are more licenses involved when holding a public 'summer school weekend' for children. Hopefully proper authorities will imagine this as well. This would be disgusting all by itself, but given our discussions this week, it's beat some record... at least for this moment in time. Ann
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 21 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Rutkowski From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 23:46:09 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:19:54 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Rutkowski >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 14:39:30 -0700 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:25:21 -0500 (CDT) >>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>The abduction of children by aliens is accepted as fact by most >>abduction "experts" and propagated among avid readers of the UFO >>genre and those listening with rapt attention to lectures about >>these claims. Of course, as I have pointed out in various >>publications, it doesn't seem logical to embrace these stories >>without much thought. >Note the mildly derisive tone. I thought it was more cynical than derisive, but OK. >>One person who has noted children's abductions is John Mack: >>"A two-year-old boy that I interviewed said that he was taken >>into the sky by a man who bit his nose. A not-yet-three-year-old >>Mack, John. (1992). Why the abduction phenomenon cannot be >>explained psychiatrically. PEER. Website: >>www.peer-mack.org/mit92.html >Interesting citation. Budd has also written about alleged >abductions of children, and a quote from his writing would very >likely seem more persuasive. To quote a passage only about >reports from two year-olds more or less loads the dice -- who in >their right mind would, if these were the only reports being >considered, take any of this seriously? As others pointed out, and as I do in my book, cases from children of ages older than this are commonplace, too. I was pointing out the extreme case to make a point, which obviously triggered the intended reaction. >>"As for abductions occurring in children as young as three years >>old, I can only note that in my own experiences with >>three-year-old children, I have found they can come up with some >>really imaginative things. >>So, I personally have to doubt whether or not the testimony of a >>young child in recalling an alien abduction is very accurate. >>Yet, Mack has described abduction experiences in even younger >>children." >I'm extraordinarily surprised to read this from someone as >sensible as Chris. Not that he's wrong -- it's just that what >he's writing here is, to put it mildly, not exactly news. >Moreover, it's written without any reference whatever to what's >surely a large body of literature on children's accuracy. There >surely are papers in psychological journals, and also law >journals, given the number of children who've testified in court >cases about sexual abuse. I've read enough here and there to >know this is a very complex issue. In no way can it be >adequately dealt with by telling a couple of personal anecdotes. True. It cannot be adequately dealt with in a forum such as Updates, either. Problems with children's testimonies in abuse cases are very serious and complex issues. You're right, this isn't news, and I am simply adding a cautionary voice into the fray. I also didn't point out that my kids have excellent memories when it comes to whether or not I promised them a treat after supper, and each can recite the litany of Pokemon rather well. All I did by citing Mack's comment and giving my own experience with kids' memories is to note that kids' memries, like adult memories, are not infallible and are subject to suggestion. I've read stuff by Budd and others, too. But I'm justifiably leery of such cases. >What Chris gives us, in the end, is no more than this: >John Mack believes two year-olds when they report what sound >like abductions. However, I, Chris Rutkowski, have been able to >get my own three year-old to believe things that aren't true. So >we can't believe John Mack. No, we shouldn't openly accept 3-year-olds' testimonies as fact. Close. >Which leaves the larger subject of children's abductions >almost entirely untouched. I think others who responded to this thread touched it quite well. I'm only encouraging caution. Geez, who do you think I am, Kevin Randle? <shudder> -- Nobody in particular
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 21 UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 01:05:03 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:24:10 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >To: "02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers":; >Subject: UpDate: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? >Date: Thu, Jul 20, 2000, 10:17 PM >SUMMER CAMP FOR KID E.T. ABDUCTEES >SANTA CRUZ, Calif. -- When E.T. phones home this summer, he may >be calling from Santa Cruz, California. >That's where a UFO researcher is holding the world's first >summer school for kids of E.T. origin. >Dr. Richard Boylan's space-age summer school is for children who >have been genetically modified by aliens. Check please! >Boylan claims these so-called "star kids" are not only brighter >than other kids, they can have strange superpowers such as >levitation, invisibility and teleportation. OH_MY_GHOD!!! We can only hope that they'll be bright enough not to attend! Herr Doktor is one thing, but these parents must be former lobotomy patients. I can only hope that the 'starchildren' _levitate_ Doctor Boylan, _teleport_ him out over the mid-Pacific somewhere, make him _invisible,_ and then drop him in the drink! I'd give them each a Gold Star and hot dogs for lunch if they could do that! Although, I have to hand it to the doctor. He is applying sound psychological principles here. If you really want to warp and distort a mind it's best to work with young and impressionable ones. Minds that have not developed the kind of coping mechanisms, discrimination and filters that only come with years of life experience. The younger the better eh doc! Hitler would have _loved_ this guy! >Besides reenacting their alien encounters via puppets and >role-playing, students will listen to lectures including one >titled, "From Fraidy-Cat To Cosmic Kid: What's It All About." >The E.T. Summer School Weekend will take place August 25. >CONTACT: Dr. Richard Boylan, >Sacramento, CA; (916) 422-7479 Please, do contact Dr.Boylan and tell him what you think of his "summer school" for "Starchildren". This is just too depressing to even contemplate. The parents should be horsewhipped for being stupid enough to sign their own children up for something like this. Poor kids. Caught between a set of cartoon parents that are dumber than a bag of hammers, and a cartoon doctor! Yikes! I hope the camp doesn't have a Hot Tub! In five years these kids will be telling all this to 'another' shrink. Guaranteed. *Take your old Uncle John's advice kids... as soon as you're old enough, run away from home! Run fast, and run far! Being a little hungry and sleeping in the rain has got to be a huge step up from the kind of psychological and emotional abuse that you have been subjected to. I'm outta here, th-th-that's all folks! Regards, John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 21 UpDate: NIDS - Class Act From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 00:22:28 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:26:29 -0400 Subject: UpDate: NIDS - Class Act For what its worth, a copy of a note just sent to NIDS ... ----- Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 00:19:41 -0500 From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> To: nids@anv.net CC: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> Subject: Forum "maintenance" To Whom it May Concern at NIDS, I find it very interesting that as soon as forum questions appeared regarding the propriety of Bigalow's purchase of 140 abductee cases from John Carpenter, your entire forum went down for "maintenance". You folks are a real class act. Understand that the audience is watching, but they aren't exactly applauding. Brian Cuthbertson Austin, Texas
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 21 UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 02:15:28 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:30:28 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Hatch >SUMMER CAMP FOR KID E.T. ABDUCTEES >SANTA CRUZ, Calif. -- When E.T. phones home this summer, he may >be calling from Santa Cruz, California. >That's where a UFO researcher is holding the world's first >summer school for kids of E.T. origin. >Dr. Richard Boylan's space-age summer school is for children who >have been genetically modified by aliens. <snip> >The E.T. Summer School Weekend will take place August 25. > >CONTACT: Dr. Richard Boylan, >Sacramento, CA; (916) 422-7479 Well. That's just perfect. Someone emailed me recently to ask if I had any connection with Dr. Boylan. This was based on his use of the same Domain name (JPS.net) which is just another mom & pop Internet Service Provider (ISP). We also both live in Northern California, but that's where the similarities end as far as I know. If any bystanders were teetering on the edge of taking UFO matters seriously, I guess Dr. Boylan brought all that indecision to a quick end. One question: Was this a news item? If so, who published it? [Wireless Flash - A Broadcaster's Info Service --ebk] Best wishes - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 21 UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Felder From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@nokomis.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 08:47:41 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 10:59:46 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Felder >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 23:38:53 -0400 >From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> ><snip> >>The E.T. Summer School Weekend will take place August 25. >>CONTACT: Dr. Richard Boylan, >>Sacramento, CA; (916) 422-7479 <snip> >If he's serving so much as a cracker during an event that is >being publicized, he requires a food handling certificate - at >least that's the procedure in Washington State. I imagine there >are more licenses involved when holding a public 'summer school >weekend' for children. Hopefully proper authorities will >imagine this as well. >This would be disgusting all by itself, but given our >discussions this week, it's beat some record... at least for >this moment in time. >Ann Anyone on the list that lives in the area where this "workshop" is to be held? If so, make a few phone calls and let the proper authorities know about it. Call and ask what sort of permits are needed, then inquire if Boylan has applied for them. If he hasn't, then you've put a bug in the ear of proper authorities that will hopefully shut the man down. Bobbie Bobbie "Jilain" Felder --->backwoods of Mississippi --->USA --->planet Earth --->somewhere in the cosmos http://www.jilain.com http://www.ufohoax.com http://www.dragoncrest.net ICQ #7524076 ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers And things are not what they seem~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 21 UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 11:36:53 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:40:24 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Mortellaro >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:37:27 -0700 >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> >Subject: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto >>SUMMER CAMP FOR KID E.T. ABDUCTEES >>SANTA CRUZ, Calif. -- When E.T. phones home this summer, he may >>be calling from Santa Cruz, California. ><snip> >Boylan has landed himself a spot in the UFO Hall of Frauds, >Dirtbags, Dupes and Morons. This guy is out of hand... <snip> Dear Royce, Listers and EBK, So what's new? And he ain't the first, since you already mentioned that there _is_ a hall for people such as this. But I do believe someone else got there first. No hall. Just an award. The famous "Bovine Excrement" award. If the cow poops on one, one doth not of needs be, wear it. Because the stench left even after bathing with antibacterial soap, remains for a long, long time. Which is why I think we should all try to throw only the pooper's poop on the pooper. Rather than our own. To the innocent bystander, the stink is the same. To the person thusly accoutered, it is quite obvious when the poop is or is not, his own. Jim Mortellaro, Pooper Snooper
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 21 UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:16:17 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:42:45 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Mortellaro >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 23:38:53 -0400 >From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto >>SUMMER CAMP FOR KID E.T. ABDUCTEES >>SANTA CRUZ, Calif. -- When E.T. phones home this summer, he may >>be calling from Santa Cruz, California. >>Snip >How timely. >Did somebody make a request to Dr. Boylan asking that he provide >us with an excellent example of kids being abused in this field? >Since I'm already on a phone roll, I called Dr. B.. It's $50 >for the weekend. I asked if all the appropriate licenses were >in place to hold such an event. He said he didn't know what I >meant - that "this isn't a school - it's just a workshop". I >thanked him and hung up. <g> >If he's serving so much as a cracker during an event that is >being publicized, he requires a food handling certificate - at >least that's the procedure in Washington State. I imagine there >are more licenses involved when holding a public 'summer school >weekend' for children. Hopefully proper authorities will >imagine this as well. >This would be disgusting all by itself, but given our >discussions this week, it's beat some record... at least for >this moment in time. >Ann Dear All and EBK, That magic word, "children." Children who must not be exposed to stuff such as this. Fascinating. Of course, it's OK to allow them to soak up all the culture our Internet, Movies and TV, Radio and Games they play has to offer. It's OK. But not THIS! Oh no! Uh, has anyone thought about the _parents_ of these little ones? Huh? Just who's responsibility is it anyway, to keep our kids out of harms way. Ours? Society's? The kids? Boylan's? Nope. Not any of the above. It's the responsibility of the parents, if there are any in the real sense, anyway. While we are out there doing our thing, no one appears to be paying any mind to the real culpricks. Maybe we should consider making more laws, eh? We got really great laws banning this and the other thingies. I have an idea. A really neato idea. Note: "NEATO" Adv, 1950's pre hippie, pre dope, white, Anglo Saxon idiomatic phrase. Similar words, neat, great, surprisingly nice, cool... etc. This, from my "just friend," Merriam. Where was I? Oh yah. Make a law. Anyone who is stupid, most especially in a culpable way, or paranoid, schizoid, lame, otherwise needing help going to the bathroom, should not be a parent. How's that? As an example, not one of my inlaws should be parents. See? Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 21 UpDate: Comment On Cheshire Video - UFOIN From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:14:07 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:45:50 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Comment On Cheshire Video - UFOIN Statement from UFOIN 'Why we are concerned about the Cheshire Video' UFOIN has been carefully monitoring the progress of the much vaunted Cheshire video footage taken on 9 July 2000 in Hartford, UK. It has been hailed in numerous press releases as potentially one of the more significant on record. We have been doing this monitor for two reasons. Firstly, because there seems no way to our eyes that such an interpretation is justified in terms of the quality of both the film and the case. Indeed it is at best a routine incident which has a probability to be resolved and no particular claim to being good scientific evidence. Secondly, there has been a well planned publicity drive that has marketed this footage to the UFO community around the world and to a vast media reaction in the UK. Indeed this has become the most hyped case in Britain for many years, with normally sensible media covering it in rather embarrassing fashion. To date UFOIN has seen nothing to suggest that this case is not explicable as an object apparently moving at wind like speed and thus, at least reasonably to be considered as a probable balloon. If such evidence does exist - as one would trust it does for any responsible Ufologist to engage in massive promotion of this case - then why has this evidence not been revealed to the media during this campaign or, more significantly, to Ufology? It is fair enough to argue that the case is under investigation. But some of the basic steps required (wind speeds, directions, existence of local fairs or shows, etc) are possible to do within hours. No respectable UFO group would surely rush to the media with a case before doing these things. As such UFOIN feel that on behalf of Ufology we are justified in asking why such evidence has not been reported alongside the claims about this case and in enquiring if indeed there were solid reasons for rejecting IFO solutions before the media furour. We also feel justified in requesting to know in what way this case qualifies for what we consider excessive descriptions about its value. License is one thing. But in what way does this case fit the reports being made about it - since even if unresolved it is a small blob seen against an expanse of sky and, as all experienced Ufologists know, thus of very limited research potential. These questions are not academic in our view. Ufology pays the price every time an alien autopsy film is plastered around the world or an insurance company creates a scam by faking stories to sell alien protection policies. It also loses credibility every time that a relatively minor - although honest - case is presented to the world as something bigger than it is. The ones who suffer are the many sincere witnesses and all serious Ufologists who will in future face a much tougher time persuading the world if and when they have important evidence to present. You can only cry wolf so many times, in our opinion. As such, and on behalf of Ufologists and witnesses everywhere, UFOIN respectfully and in a spirit of community and friendship asks for answers on these important questions. UFOIN (UFO Investigators Network)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 21 UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes - From: Jerry Anderson <jerry@uforesearch.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:54:50 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:50:16 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes - >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 13:51:42 -0400 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> >Subject: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Regarding the 'major UFO incident'. I think this is a classic >case of hype over content and a perfect example of how easily >the media allow themselves to be manipulated and of how stupid >ufologists can be. >For those who haven't seen the video what you get is..... a >distant 'silvery' blob. It's below lowish cloud cover - probably >below 2000 feet. Other than that there's not much you can >reasonably say. Whatever it is clearly very small, probably not >more than a foot or two across at most and of an indistinct >shape. >Yes, it's a 'UFO' in the literal sense. But it hardly >constitutes a 'major UFO incident' alert. In essence it's the >sort of video most ufologists receive several times a year. >Based on the evidence available it would seem to be a small >silvery coated object. The time and date of the event, ie early >Sunday afternoon in summer, makes it a strong possibility it is >a kids' helium balloon released at a summer fair. There is also >small possibility it is one of the most excellent 'UFO Sam' >kites which, in my experience, look almost identical to this >video. >What the video does not display is any form of craft under any >form of intelligent control. And I'm being charitable here. When >blown up a zillion times it attains Roscharch blot status and I >swear I could see Elvis waving! BUFOSC are, I suppose, to be >congratulated for pulling the wool over the media's eyes and for >making a fast buck out of a slow week. Whether they show the >same determination in trying to ascertain what the object >actually was, remains to be seen. > From the point of view of ethical and professional ufology the >main question buzzing across UFO discussion lists seems to be: >"Why didn't they get it analysed before going to the media." >Why indeed. >Also, UFO Magazine's Russ Callaghan has been quoted by BUFOSC as >saying it is: >"the best footage I have ever seen." >Did you say that Russ? Really? Can you comment as to _why_ you >said that and how this differs from any other dodgy 'UFO' vid? >Will UFO Magazine be selling this video by the pound as they do >so many other 'UFO' videos? >Has any _real_ investigation ben done on this case? Will anyone >ever see it? Is less than two weeks _really_ a long enough time >to evaluate and investigate a case before making a media splash >and luring a "forty strong crowd" to a Church Hall? >The Daily Mail allege 'such footage has never been shot in the >UK before' - which is blatant rubbish, but sells papers. Is >money what this is all about? >Eric Morris stated that 'I have never seen anything like it in >22 years of researching this phenomena (sic)... It is definitely >not a hoax. Most certainly not.' >How do Eric and BUFOSC _know_ it's not a hoax if they don't know >_what_ it is? Ufologists' logic never fails to amaze me. >There are also a couple of other facts about this case which >haven't made it into the media or the saucer world as yet but >I'll leave you with them. Enjoy..... >* The guy who took the video is called Karl Woods >* Karl Woods is a good friend of Eric Morris >* Eric Morris is one of the grande fromages at BUFOSC who are >fervently promoting the video >* When Eric Morris reported this case over a week ago to another >ufologist from the northwest Eric stated that in the background >of the tape can be heard a scanner and a pilot allegedly >reporting a UFO being chased >* Neither Eric, Tim , BUFOSC, the media or indeed anyone has >mentioned this since. Was this a different case? (no). Was Eric >telling fibs? (maybe). Will this be 'revealed' when the case >flags? (perhaps). >* The term 'falling leaf' motion has been used to describe the >object on the video. A classic ufological term not heard in most >parts for years >* The term 'falling leaf' has occurred in another recent UFO >case not forty miles from the Cheshire 'major UFO incident'. >This case is widely believed to be a hoax >* BUFOSC and MAPIT were also staunch promoters of the 'Winter >Hill' case from last year (also within the same general area as >this 'major' incident). This case also took place suspiciously >close to a UFO conference promoted by one of the case's >investigators. What happened to that? >* Am I too suspicious, paranoid, or what? >Sceptical ufologists everywhere have their art pads out and are >drawing their own conclusions about what is going on among >certain sections of the UFO community in Cheshire/Lancashire! Dear Errol and List, I rarely comment on much that is sent in to the List, but this time I cannot stand by and stay quiet. Mr. Roberts' 'attack' on the Cheshire footage is well out of order. Does he regard himself as an expert? Because that is the impression he gives. I have to say that Roberts leaves me quite unimpressed with his sarcastic and futile attempt to discredit Eric Morris and Tim Mathews, both of whom I know and have shared information with over the years. It is obvious to me, and others I'm sure, that Roberts is quite plainly envious of any information that passes him by, and therefore dismisses any possible evidence of anomalous airborne object, as 'something else'. Eric Morris and Tim Mathews are seasoned investigators, and would have done their groundwork as a matter of course. Why be condescending? Why should it matter if Eric knows the person who filmed the object - does that make this footage less credible? Answer - a definite _no_! Please, if you don't like the fact that friends and relatives sometimes see things as well as strangers, then I suggest you get another hobby, 'cos that's the way things go chum. Jerry Anderson UFOMEK
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 22 UpDate: Sale Of Abductee Files/NIDS Bulletin Board From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 14:24:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 04:50:05 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Sale Of Abductee Files/NIDS Bulletin Board To: Dr.Alexander at NIDS Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 00:19:41 -0500 Dr. Alexander, Wow, how very revealing and interesting that as soon as questions started appearing on the NIDS website bulletin board regarding whether Robert Bigalow's purchase of 140 abductee files from John Carpenter was handled properly (for the witnesses concerned) your interactive board "suddenly" goes down for "maintenance". Don't you folks realize that people are watching/paying attention? For your own sakes if nothing else, put the bulletin board back up and let the people say what they have to say. This move is insulting to the intelligence of those who visit or otherwise use your website. What a blatant disregard for the legitimate concerns of others. You are only making an already bad situation much worse! It's like you're 'stoking the fire' purposely. Shame. You guys had a window of opportunity to secure the respect and admiration of many, many people. People who would have -voluntarily- offered to help you if they believed that NIDS (and Mr.Bigelow) were "on their side" and willing to protect their rights to privacy. I'm surprised at you guys. I would have thought that an old and successful horse trader like Bob Bigelow would have figured out that you can draw more flies with honey, etc, etc. Instead, he's out there spending boodles for information that would come to him for nothing if he had 1 (just one) lick of common sense. People would volunteer to -give- NIDS information if you had handled this thing right. But no, instead NIDS chooses a course of action that most folks find insulting and antagonistic. Insuring _more_ negative attention, _more_ bad publicity, meddling from all quarters, and a king-sized burr under your saddle that will be there until this issue is resolved responsibly-and in favor of the witnesses/subjects. Get on the stick man. Do the right thing by these people and all this BS goes away overnight. Use your noodle and your better judgement. You know I'm talking sense. Dr. Alexander, may I paint a little picture for you? Robert Bigelow contacts the abductees and informs them that he has purchased their reports and information. He _asks_ them if he can have his staff of highly trained and regarded experts conduct an in depth analysis of the material. He _assures_ them that their privacy and anonymity have not been compromised in any way and that their participation may help to shed some light on a subject that is important/relevant us all. How many do you think will say "no" if approached with a little consideration and respect? I'm not a rich man so I can't make "Big" wagers, but I'll bet you a $100 bucks that not only will all 140 grant their consent, but your people will be able to conduct follow-ups and ask questions that may fill in gaps in the information that you do have. Not only that, but Mr. Bigelow won't have to "buy" anything in the future! All NIDS will have to do is put out a call/request for witnesses of this, that, or the other and folks will fry your phone lines volunteering to help. That is, if they believe they are dealing with a group of experts that care about protecting the witnesses and others that they rely on for their raw data. If folks know that their privacy and anonymity are being respected they will flock to you. Don't you guys realize that in terms of "scientific experts" that dedicate their time to studying this subject, that NIDS is the only game in town! If you would 'publish' from time to time some of your findings, people would flood you with data. The bottom line is: This way,... Everybody is happy, and Mr. Bigelow gets to ride off into the sunset with a big smile and his saddle bags full. Just makes _bottom line_ common sense to handle this the way I just suggested. Like attracts like. It's a Law of the Universe. Sincerely, John Velez ---------- From: nids@anv.net To: John <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 11:12:19 -7 Subject: Re: Sale of abductee files/your bulletin board Mr. Velez, We have forwarded your message onto Dr. Alexander. He is traveling but checks his email at regular intervals. Because of the sensitive and controversial nature of it�s primary research topic, it is not NIDS policy to comment on the sources or methods of obtaining research information. NIDS obtains and creates multiple databases in the fields of UFO research, abduction and animal mutilation and in doing so, the identities and contact details of individuals are protected or redacted. Unless otherwise approved, NIDS never releases the names or identifying details of any UFO eyewitnesses, abductees or in the cases involving animal mutilations, ranchers. All individuals and consultants who work for NIDS sign a non-disclosure agreement. NIDS has physicians, psychologists and professional scientists from government and university labs on its science advisory board who help in maintaining the highest ethical research principles. We hope to have the bulletin board back up sometime next week or shortly thereafter. Sincerely NIDS Staff ---------- Thank you for your speedy response. But,... the information that you have provided me with (above) has nothing to do with the situation in question. NIDS and Mr.Bigelow need to address the issue of the rights of the abductees whose files were sold without their consent being sought and some of which contained identifying information. You need not respond to this note. I just hope that Dr. Alexander and Mr.Bigelow do the right thing by these 140 individuals. Would you kindly post a copy of my letter to the NIDS bulletin board (whenever) it does go back up online. Thank you. Sincerely, John Velez -- ______________________________________________ A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center - www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm jvif@spacelab.net "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ______________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 22 UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Mulvey From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:12:22 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 04:54:17 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Mulvey >Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 08:47:41 -0500 >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@nokomis.com> >Subject: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 23:38:53 -0400 >From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> ><snip> >>The E.T. Summer School Weekend will take place August 25. >>CONTACT: Dr. Richard Boylan, >>Sacramento, CA; (916) 422-7479 <snip> >If he's serving so much as a cracker during an event that is >being publicized, he requires a food handling certificate - at >least that's the procedure in Washington State. I imagine there >are more licenses involved when holding a public 'summer school >weekend' for children. Hopefully proper authorities will >imagine this as well. >This would be disgusting all by itself, but given our >discussions this week, it's beat some record... at least for >this moment in time. >Ann >Anyone on the list that lives in the area where this "workshop" >is to be held? If so, make a few phone calls and let the proper >authorities know about it. Call and ask what sort of permits are >needed, then inquire if Boylan has applied for them. If he >hasn't, then you've put a bug in the ear of proper authorities >that will hopefully shut the man down. Good idea, especially coming from folks that live in CA. Meanwhile, a "little birdie" tells me that the California's Attorney General's Office has already been notified.<squeak squeak> Ann
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 22 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Jones From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 21:22:25 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 04:56:47 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Jones Evenin' all Can anyone tell me if Jerome Clarke actually answered Peter 'God's Gift To Satire' Brookesmith's question about the lack of an entry for Gotlib? Also, can any anyone tell me where I might obtain a copy of Gotlib's "Bulletin of Anomalous Phenomena". -- In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible. Sean Jones http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 22 UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 05:08:56 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 05:08:56 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? From: ebk - UFO UpDates - Toronto >Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 14:10:18 -0700 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >Subject: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Hatch >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 02:15:28 -0700 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >>Subject: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >>One question: Was this a news item? If so, who published it? >>[Wireless Flash - A Broadcaster's Info Service --ebk] >OK. I don't know anything about this news service. >Who receives Wireless Flash... radio/TV stations? Newspapers? >Is this likely to get into the general news, as a human interest >story at least? Larry, As its name implies its a news service for radio stations. Some of the guys at CFRB take the trouble to pass me tidbits from the daily e-service. The story in question came to me from one of them. As for a "Human Interest Story" - I dunno. Seems to be the 'silly season' as far as hard news is concerned - it might, but the odds are probably against it, when editors/newsreaders have such a large choice of fluff from the 'stack o'stuff' that Wireless Flash distributes on a weekly and daily basis. ebk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 22 UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:32:10 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 05:21:55 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files UFO UpDates - Toronto wrote: >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:20:45 -0400 >From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson@alienjigsaw.com> >Subject: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files >To: updates@sympatico.ca >I have posted my comments regarding the sale of abductees' files >from John Carpenter to Robert Bigelow. They can be read by >clicking on: >http://www.alienjigsaw.com/Part_I/carpenterbigelow.html >This is a copyrighted article and may not be posted. Very good article, Katharina! In the article you ask, what is RB doing with those files? Of course RB might be studying them to try to understand the abduction phenomenon. He has a great interest in the paranormal. I think there is a building at UNLV dedicated to such research which was funded by him. What's the worst thing that they could do with the information? Well, it would provide excellent feedback to the MILAB on the effectiveness of their mind control techniques, eh? It could certainly help them improve their memory block techniques. The fact is that we have no idea what is being done with this information. It reminds me of the urban legend where the guy wakes up in a bath tub of water of and ice with a note saying, "Don't try to move. Call 911. Your kidneys have been removed." A part of these 140 people has been taken from them. Terry
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 22 UpDate: NIDS Faculty From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 17:36:15 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 05:24:13 -0400 Subject: UpDate: NIDS Faculty Folks, When I commented to Katharina Wilson (http://www.alienjigsaw.com) on the apparent military intelligence background of one of Bigelow's key people (John Alexander), she provided me the following information on Alexander and other NIDS folks. This is all publicly available stuff, by the way. An interesting set of characters, though no more entitled than anyone else to be poking around in abductee's personal case records without their permission. -Brian C. Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 17:50:46 -0400 To: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> From: K Wilson Subject: Alexander, et al Brian: Here's the info. I was referring to. If you would post this to the UFO UpDates List, I think it will give people a better idea of the kind of company Bigelow keeps. Thanks, Katharina **************************************************************** From: "AMERICAN MEN AND WOMEN OF SCIENCE" 1998-1999 ALEXANDER, JOHN BRADFIELD, NON-LETHAL WEAPONS DEVELOPMENT, PHENOMENOLOGY. Current Pos:PRES, APOLLINAIRE GROUP, 94-; CONSULT, IR DEFENSE RES & ENG, OFF SECY DEFENSE, PENTAGON, 96- Personal Data: b New York, NY, Nov 21, 37; m, Victoria Lacas; c Marc B & Joshua J. Educ: Univ Nebr, BGS, 71; Pepperdine Univ, MA, 75; Walden Univ, PhD(educ), 80. Honors & Awards:Nat Award for Volunteerism, Pres Reagan, 87; Weapons Prog Recognition of Excellence, 94. Prof Exp: Chief, Human Resources Div, US Army, Ft McPherson, 77-79, inspector gen, 80-82, chief, Human Tech Army Intel Command, 82-83, mgr tech integration, Army Material Command, 83-85, dir advan concepts, US Army Lab Command, 85-88; mgr nonlethal weapons defense technol, Los Alamos Nat Lab, 88-95, mgr anti-material tech, Defense Initiatives Off, 88-91, prog mgr contingency missions tech, Conventional Defense Technol, 91-92, prog mgr nonlethal defense, Spec Technol Group, Nonproliferation & Int Security Div, 92-95. Concurrent Pos Adj prof, Grad Sch, Union lnst, Ohio, 92-97; mem, Non-Lethal Warfare Study Group, Coun Foreign Rels, NY & Washington, 93; US deleg, NATO Adv Group Aerospace Res & Develop, 94-; distinguished guest lectr, USAF Command & Staff Col, Air Univ, Maxwell AFB, 94- Mem: Soc Sci Explor. Res:Contributed numerous articles to professional journals. Mailing Add 9521 Grand Canal Las Vegas NV 89117 PUTHOFF, HAROLD EDWARD, QUANTUM PHYSICS. Current Pos: DIR, INST ADVAN STUDIES AUSTIN, TEX, 85- Personal Data: b Chicago, III, June 20, 36; m 74, Adrienne C Kennedy; c Devin, Alexa, Brendan, Gavin & Collin. Educ: Univ Fla, BEE, 58, MSE, 60; Stanford Univ, PhD(elec eng), 67. Prof Ejtp: Rca engr comput design, Gen Eng Lab, Gen Elec Co, Schenectady, NY, 58; Sperry res fel microwave eng, Univ Fla, 58-59; res engr microwave tube eng, Sperry Electronic Tube Div, Gainesville, Fla, 59-60; res engr comput, Nat Security Agency, Ft Meade, Md, 60-63; res assoc quantum electronics & lasers, Hansen Labs, Stanford Univ, 63-7 1; sr rca engr extrasensory perception, SRI mt. 71-85. Concurrent Pos: Lectr dec eng, Stanford Univ, 69-70; fel, Fetzer Inst. 92- Mem: AAAS; Am Phys Soc; Sigma Xi; Parapsychol Asn; Soc Sci Explor. Res: Laser research and development; quantum electronics; electron beam and microwave tube research; parapsychological phenomena; vacuum zero-point energy studies; general relativity; cosmology. Mailing Add: 511 Konstanty Circle Austin TX 78746-6435. Fax: 512-346-3017; E-Mail: puthoff@aol.com ROCKWELL, THEODORE, ENERGY SYSTEMS, ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCES. Current Pos: prin officer & dir, 64-87, DIR, MPR ASSOCS, INC, WASH, DC, 87- Personal Data: b Chicago, ill, June 26, 22; m 47, Mary Compton; c Robert, Teed, Larry & Juanita. Educ: Princeton Univ, BSE, 43, MS, 45. Hon Degrees: ScD, Tn-State Univ, 60. Honors & Awards: AEC Distinguished Serv Medal & Navy Distinguished Civilian Serv Medal, 60; Lifetime Contribution Award, Am Nuclear Soc. Prof Exp: Engr, Electromagnetic Separation Plant, Manhattan Proj, Oak Ridge, Tenn, 44-45; head shield eng group, Oak Ridge Nat Lab, 45-49; nuclear engr naval reactors, AEC & nuclear propulsion, Bur Ships, 49-53, dir nuclear technol div, 53-54, tech dir, 54-64. Concurrent Pos: Chmn nat shield eng group, AEC, 48-49; mem reactor safety panel, & chmn, Reactor Safety Task Force, Atomic Indust forum, 66-68; mem adv group, NIH, 66; mem adv comt, Dept Chem Eng, Princeton Univ, 67-72; res assoc, Wash Ctr Foreign Policy Res, Johns Hopkins Univ, 65-67, consult, Joint Cong Comt Atomic Energy, 67. Mem: AAAS; Sigma Xi; Am Soc Psych Rca; Parapsychol Asn; Soc Sci Explor. Res: Criteria, procedures and facilities for safe operation of naval and central station nuclear power plants; societal and environmental impact of energy production and use. Mailing Add: 3403 Woolsey Dr Chevy Chase MD 20815-3924. Faa: 301-652-0534; E-Mail: tedrock@cpcug.org ROTA, GlAN-CARLO, MATHEMATICS. Current Pos: prof math, 67.74, PROF APPL MATH & PHILOS, MASS INST TECHNOL, 74* Personal Data: b Italy, Apr 27, 32; nat US; div. Educ: Princeton Univ, BA, 53; Yale Univ, MA, 54, PhD(math), 56. Hon Degrees: DSc, Univ Strasbourg, France, 84; Univ L'Aquild, Italy, 90. Honors & Awards: Hednck Lectr, Am Math Asn, 67; Taft Lcctr, Univ Cincinnati, 71; Hardy Lectr, London Math Soc, 73; Steele Prize, Am Math Soc, 89. Prof Exp: Fel, Courant Inst Math Sci, NY Univ, 56-57; Benjamin Pierce instr math, Harvard Univ, 57-59; from asst prof to assoc prof, Mass Inst Technol, 59.65; prof, Rockefeller Univ, 65-67. Concurrent Pos: Sloan fel, 62-64; consult, Los Atamos Nat Lab, 63.71, Rand Corp, 64-71; mem comt math adv, Off Naval Res, 63-67; ed-in-chief, Advan in Math, 68-; via prof, Univ Cob, 69-80; ed, Studies Appi Math, 70-, J Math Anal & Appins; Andre Aisenstadt via prof, Univ Montreal, 71; fel, Los Alamos Sci Lab, 71-; chmn, Math Sect, AAAS, 88. Mem: Nat Acad Sci; Am Math Soc; fel Academia Argentina de Ciencias; Soc Indust & Appi Math (vpres, 75); feb Inst Math Statist; feb AAAS; fel Am Acad Arts & Sd. Res: Combinatorial theory; probability; phenomenobogy. Mailing Add: 1105 Massachusetts Ave Apt 8F Cambridge MA 02138-5217. Fax: 61 7-547-4882: E-Mail: rota@math.mit.edu WHINNERY, JAMES ELLI0TT, FIGHTER AVIATION MEDICINE, ACCELERATION PHYSIOLOGY. Current Pos: CHIEF AEROSPACE MED SCIENTIST, NAVAL AIR DEVELOP CTR, 86- Personal Data: ~ Amarillo, Tex, May 1, 46; m 85, Angela M Geraci; c Chance T. Ethic: WTes State Univ. BS, 68; Tex Christian Univ, PhD(phys chem) & MAT, 72: Univ Tex, Galveston, MD, 75; Air War Col, dipl, 76. Honors & Awards: Arnold D Tuttle Award, Aerospace Med Asn, 79 & 86. Prof Exp: Flight surgeon. USAF Sch Aerospace Mcd, 75-80, chief, Biodyn, 83-85; dir, Cardiovasc & Renal Mcd, Merck Sharp & Dohme Res Labs, 80-83. Concurrent Pos: Flight surgeon, Tex Air Nat Guard, 75-80, din comdr, 83-85; sr flight surgeon. Pa Air Nat Guard, 80-83 & Ala Air Nat Guard, 8 5-86; spec res fel, Air Power Res Inst, Air War Col, 85-86; adv air surgeon, Nat Guard Bur, 86-90 & 91-93: asst command surgeon, USAF, Europe & Air Force Surgeon, Opers Desert Shield-Desert Storm, 90-91. Mem: Fel Am Col Cardiol; fel Aerospace Med Asn; fel Am Inst Chemists; Sigma Xi; Am Chem Soc. Res: Expert fighter aviation medicine; acceleration cardiovascular: neurophysiology: acceleration induced loss of consciousness. Mailing Add: 3520 Sleepy Hollow Amarilo TX 79121. Fax: 215-441-3758 END
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 22 UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Myers From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:38:54 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 05:26:15 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Myers >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:20:45 -0400 >From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson@alienjigsaw.com> >Subject: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files >To: updates@sympatico.ca >I have posted my comments regarding the sale of abductees' files >from John Carpenter to Robert Bigelow. They can be read by >clicking on: >http://www.alienjigsaw.com/Part_I/carpenterbigelow.html So whatever happened to the lawsuit that was "mysteriously dropped"? Did a judge actually hear the complaint? Just curious... Regards, Royce J. Myers III eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy - "Don't Trip On Your Open Mind." eXpos News http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3 UFO Hall o' Shame http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 22 UpDate: Re: Siegel Show - Call-In 'Witness' - Myers From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:39:33 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 05:27:41 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Siegel Show - Call-In 'Witness' - Myers >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 03:48:22 -0400 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> >Subject: Siegel Show - Call-In 'Witness' >To: 'UFO Updates' <updates@sympatico.ca> >A caller to Mike Siegel (guest is astronaut Gordon Cooper), >claiming to be a former military guy, just recounted a story >about witnessing a saucer-shaped object being transported >(tightly under canvas wrap) across whatever base he was on >way-back-when, etc. Allegedly the base was locked up tight >& pretty much everyone knew "we have one of theirs", etc. >The guy went on to say that he was getting older & that he >basically just didn't care about any security oaths he had >taken or who heard him talking about it now: "What can they >do to me?", he said. >Siegel asked if it'd be alright for his producers to get >the guy's contact info so that they could forward it to >MUFON so that someone could get in contact w/ him, & the >guy said absolutely, no problem. >So ... uh, there you go. >FWIW, the call was somewhere between 3:00-3:30 am, EST. This is jsut as good as the guy who called in claiming he was a scientist for MJ-12 but was asking Cooper questions about MJ-12...it's all radio folks. Anonymity is not at a premium and you can be anyone you want to be, just like the Internet. Regards, Royce J. Myers III eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy - "Don't Trip On Your Open Mind...or the phone cord while you're calling into a late night radio program that'll buy into anything and everything... eXpos News http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3 UFO Hall o' Shame http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 22 UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes - From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 01:25:58 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 05:31:57 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes - >Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:54:50 +0100 >From: Jerry Anderson <jerry@uforesearch.freeserve.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >I rarely comment on much that is sent in to the List, but this >time I cannot stand by and stay quiet. >Mr. Roberts' 'attack' on the Cheshire footage is well out of >order. I have to say that Roberts leaves me quite >unimpressed with his sarcastic and futile attempt to discredit >Eric Morris and Tim Mathews...It is obvious to me, and others >I'm sure, that Roberts is quite plainly envious of any >information that passes him by, and therefore dismisses any >possible evidence of anomalous airborne object, as 'something >else'. Hi, In response to this, Jerry, I don't wish to fall out with you but I have to disagree. I have known Tim and Eric for years too. That really isn't the point here. What matters is not people but a proper assessment of the evidence for a case that has been widely promoted as being very unusual, something special and potentially of huge importance. Andy - in his usual blunt Yorkshire way - is merely expressing concerns that a large number of British Ufologists have as to whether this case really deserved singling out as so important. From what I have seen to date the answer has to be no. The film is nothing special. It clearly resembles a balloon. It behaves like a balloon. And its small and high against a dark sky making meaningful analysis difficult. Now it may well be that Tim and Eric have done the work and have established good grounds as to why this object is not a balloon. In which case - if such evidence were on the table - then of course I would be more willing to take this case seriously as being important evidence. But the fact is that so far we have no way to know. Who took it, who investigated it and who promoted it are not an irrelevance but less important if we have good scientific evidence and I doubt very much jealousy was an issue with Andy's comments. You may care to know (and I am sure Andy will acknowledge) that whilst he sent that report under his name he based his message upon a large consensus of views collated from at least a dozen UK researchers all of whom would have signed their name to his statement had he asked them to do so. It was built from a lengthy debate by British Ufology this week. The UFO community should not be about personal rivalries. If there is good evidence behind this video then terrific, but Ufology needs to see it. Instead we have had a week of press releases cooing about the importance of this case - endless TV and radio chatter. Yet not key data like the wind speed, direction, calculated height and size of the object and confirmation that all sources from where balloon launches might have occurred were checked and eliminated. These are basic steps on a case such as this where balloon is the first thing any sober investigator is going to think of when seeing this video. Of course, it may not prove to be a balloon in the end. But we cannot determine that on what we have been told so far and as a result it is reasonable to question the wisdom of rushing into such a media frenzy over a case that must still be of doubtful origin. Nobody would be more delighted than I would if someone took a definitive video of an unexplained phenomenon and the world was shown it on every chat show. It would vindicate my interest in this phenomenon and - yes - it would probably sell more books for me! But the danger always is that a case that looks good gets hyped then falls apart and Ufology suffers another case of 'told you so' syndrome. This is a lesson all Ufologists have to take on board because it has happened often in the past. The odds are always stacked against any single case being truly strange and so we know that it will happen again by virtue of the simple fact that 95% of all cases are resolvable after sufficient effort. This means you just have to take time and know what you are dealing with before you put Ufology in the spotlight through wide promotion of any case. Far from jealousy - you might like to know that Andy has been involved (as I) in several recent major cases - including a multi witness video footage event and another where a man claims he was hit on the head by a ball of light and a hole burned through his hat (a similar case to the famous West Palm Beach, Florida case of Blue Book days). So he has no reason to be jealous of the Hartford case as much of our recent time has been taken following up these cases. With neither of the above events have we rushed to the media. We have spent three weeks working with various scientists and research centres and universities trying to find answers. In one case we did so. In the other matters are still unresolved. We no doubt could have created an international media furour from a story of a man hit on the head by a UFO (especially given the physical evidence involved). But it would have been unwise and premature to do that. So we didn't. I believe there are real UFOs, in some senses, lurking behind a few cases. I believe genuinely interesting UFO photographs do exist. I just do not personally believe - from what I have seen to date at least - that this Cheshire video case is worthy of the massive attention that it is getting. This is my opinion. I may be proved wrong by the unfolding facts and if I am then I will gladly say so and applaud Eric and his work. But the lack of information is the reason for most of Andy's concern. And that I understand. Ufology thrives on promoting itself but I do not think we are necessarily served by the motto any publicity is good publicity. Best wishes, Jenny Randles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 22 UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 23:09:18 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 06:03:48 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Hammond >Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 11:08:28 -1100 >From: Liz Hammond<lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 02:15:28 -0700 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >Subject: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>SUMMER CAMP FOR KID E.T. ABDUCTEES >>SANTA CRUZ, Calif. -- When E.T. phones home this summer, he may >>be calling from Santa Cruz, California. >>That's where a UFO researcher is holding the world's first >>summer school for kids of E.T. origin. >>Dr. Richard Boylan's space-age summer school is for children who >>have been genetically modified by aliens. ><snip> >>The E.T. Summer School Weekend will take place August 25. >>CONTACT: Dr. Richard Boylan, >>Sacramento, CA; (916) 422-7479 >Well. That's just perfect. Yup, just perfect! Although I see this was sent out this morning, I still feel compelled to answer. How did a man with his track record, like loss of license to practice in California manage to get all the permits, etc. that _must_ be needed to start any kind of summer camp. Second, and more important, this guy is just a menace. I hope somehow the local officials, social workers, etc. are alerted to this so they can check out what this cretin is doing and it seems has convinced a bunch of parents of. Unless they all have birth certificates listing Bongo from the Planet Mongo as the Pappy, then all should be taken into protective custody to be de-programed, ASAP! Yours, quite angrily, Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 22 UpDate: Re: Bigelow By Phone - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 23:31:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 06:06:24 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Bigelow By Phone - Hammond >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:07:13 -0400 >From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >Subject: Bigelow By Phone >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:50:55 -0400 >>From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >>Subject: NIDS Discussion Forum >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Dear List Members, >>I just posted a message on the NIDS Discussion Forum. >>Regardless of your position on abductions, other bizarre aspects >>of this field, or me<g>, please back me up. >>The title of my message is: 120 Families Need to Know >>http://www.nidsci.org/resources/forum/Read/ >>Hopefully the message will still be there. >Well, not only is my message and other messages not there, but >the whole damn board is gone. LOL! So, I called NIDS..... >The gal who answered the NIDS telephone told me that Mr. >Bigelow's office can be reached at: 702-456-1606. Dear Ann: Have been laid up all day or would have seen this sooner. I did leave a message on the Forum, must have been taken down shortly after. Tomorrow being Saturday, I'll try to call, but may have to wait to reach someone until Monday. Now that I've seen that one of the files 'belonged" to another researcher, am anxious to make sure mine is not among them! If not, then I am still giving aid to my fellows, IMHO Yours, Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 22 UpDate: Re: Abductees - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 23:46:44 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 06:09:47 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductees - Hammond >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:28:50 -0700 >From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> >Subject: Re: Abductees >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Dear Steve, Tim, Liz and all: >>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 05:34:21 -0400 >>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >>Subject: Re: Abductees >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:30:02 -0400 >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>They have been lucky to have found a >>child psychiatrist who supports the reality of what's happening. >>Hopefully, this person can help her integrate some of this so >>she can begin to live a more normal life. >>This child will _not_ be undergoing hypnosis! If anything, the >>parents want to minimize this issue, while still being >>supportive of what she is going through. Her parents, and >>myself, too, don't believe that children should be made part of >>any research studies. Their minds are being messed with enough >>without adding anything to it. Hypnosis, regression, any of the >>tools commonly used have no place what so ever when dealing with >>children. Children, in fact, IMHO, have no place participating >>in any kind of research study. In my opinion, and this is just >>my opinion, it is an act bordering on malpractice to subject any >>child to these methods. >Next to Liz: >Nothing can ever beat working directly with the >subconscious/body in dealing with suppressed issues or issues >that are remembered or issues that were hypnotically suppressed >on purpose by the abductors. They are much better than we are at >using hypnosis. But, without that tool, it's like going into >battle without a weapon; we thus don't stand a chance. In >psychiatry this person/child will spend their life trying to >integrate that which they: >1) don't understand >2) can't comprehend >3) have suppressed themselves >4) or has been hypnotically suppressed by their abductors Mike: The problem is, as always, in finding a reputable person to regress a child. I think any parent would be understandably reluctant in this area. It has as many pitfalls as the area of "Abduction Researchers" >Your story, Liz, was one of the best insights I've ever heard of >into what goes on inside a family when abductions are prevalent. >Thank you very much for posting it. I'm sure you realize this was just the tip of the iceberg! Also, it's very frustrating to have someone come on the List, make the claims you've made, and then not supply any details. I get tired of hearing : "You'll have to read my book", especially when there is as yet no publisher. I believe these details rightfully belong to Abductees and no one else should be making decisions, as if we were children, on what we can and can't handle. You may write to me privately on this if you wish. I would like to know where you practice. Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 22 UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Mulvey From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 23:56:03 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 06:15:33 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Mulvey >Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:16:17 -0400 (EDT) >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Mulvey >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 23:38:53 -0400 >>From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto >>>SUMMER CAMP FOR KID E.T. ABDUCTEES >>>SANTA CRUZ, Calif. -- When E.T. phones home this summer, he may >>>be calling from Santa Cruz, California. ><snip> >How timely. >Did somebody make a request to Dr. Boylan asking that he provide >us with an excellent example of kids being abused in this field? >Since I'm already on a phone roll, I called Dr. B.. It's $50 >for the weekend. I asked if all the appropriate licenses were >in place to hold such an event. He said he didn't know what I >meant - that "this isn't a school - it's just a workshop". I >thanked him and hung up. <g> >If he's serving so much as a cracker during an event that is >being publicized, he requires a food handling certificate - at >least that's the procedure in Washington State. I imagine there >are more licenses involved when holding a public 'summer school >weekend' for children. Hopefully proper authorities will >imagine this as well. >This would be disgusting all by itself, but given our >discussions this week, it's beat some record... at least for >this moment in time. >Ann Hi Jim, >That magic word, "children." Children who must not be exposed to >stuff such as this. Fascinating. Of course, it's OK to allow >them to soak up all the culture our Internet, Movies and TV, >Radio and Games they play has to offer. It's OK. But not THIS! >Oh no! <snip> In my house there is no equivalent in internet, movies, TV, radio, nor games to somebody using Dr. as their title telling my children that they have been genetically altered by aliens, are 'Star Children' etc.. >It's the responsibility of the parents, if there are any in the >real sense, anyway. While we are out there doing our thing, no >one appears to be paying any mind to the real culpricks. One could easily use the same logic in our struggle to get those 120 families notified. Some of them are kids. 'So what!'... "Where were their parents?" They're the real culprits - not Caprenter or Bigelow!" Yes, parents are ultimately responsible, but sometimes situations twist and what seemed like a good idea one time, later turned out to be a very bad idea. Some very bad ideas are more immediately obvious to most than others sometimes, and even the best of intentions doesn't change that. Just like those 120 files - it's times like the above that people like you and me and others here have to raise our voices and say no - that's wrong - it's hurtful to children. Those of us who experienced the unexplained during scary childhoods have a greater obligation to make sure some freak doesn't worsen that for some other innocent kid. People/Parents will still screw up. But at least there was a warning shot by people who care. With any luck, the shot will splash into the hot tub of the genetically altered, puppet playing fellow who doesn't understand licenses, kids, ethics or much else. (South Park flashback) Ann Bigelow's office: 702-456-1606
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 22 UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes - From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 03:44:45 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 06:19:31 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes - >Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:54:50 +0100 >From: Jerry Anderson <jerry@uforesearch.freeserve.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >I have to say that Roberts leaves me quite >unimpressed with his sarcastic and futile attempt to discredit >Eric Morris and Tim Mathews Hi Jerry - no sarcasm, just the facts I'm afraid. >Eric Morris and Tim Mathews are seasoned investigators, and >would have done their groundwork as a matter of course. So where's the analysis? Why are they choosing to hype a video, the likes of which we all receive several times a year, investigate, resolve and move on from? Where is there _any_ hint that this video is of anything less than mundane - ie a child's mylar type balloon? Surely if something resembles objects seen many times before (as this does a balloon, for instance) then it is reasonable to suggest that's what it is. Especially at 2pm on a Summer sunday. Do you really want _every_ dodgy video received by ufologists to be hyped to the media? If so then the subject becomes more of a laughing stock then it already is. Sure, it makes ufologists feel self important because of the media attention but the majority of people shrug and think 'idiots'. And shouldn't we take seasoned investigators with a pinch of salt? >Why should it matter if Eric knows the person who >filmed the object - does that make this footage less credible? * It makes it less credible because they chose to keep this fact quiet. * It makes it less credible in the context of hoaxes which have been perpetrated in the north west over the past year. Are _you_ impressed by this video Jerry? If so could you tell us why? What technical aspect of the objects movement make it differ from a child's balloon, for instance. Further to my earlier post and having received a report of Graham Birdsall on a BBC radio show last night it appears that he was 'playing down' the alleged quote by Russ Callaghan. But I'd request again to Russ - did you _really_ say, as quoted in the BUFOSC press release, that it was: "the best footage I have ever seen." And would you agree with that Jerry? In fact, can we have some comment from others on the List who have seen this video? What do you think is shown? Do you think that this is the way to conduct ufology - by media manipulation? These are serious issues about a serious subject matter. Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 22 UpDate: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video - Matthews From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 20:41:52 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 11:30:43 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video - Matthews >Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:14:07 +0100 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >Subject: Comment On Cheshire Video >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Statement from UFOIN >'Why we are concerned about the Cheshire Video' Dear All, The dissemination of an initial Press Release - written by me in short 10 minutes - to limited media last week led to unprecedented interest in 4 1/2 minutes of UFO video footage shot by Karl Woods, a former Royal Observer Corps (expert aerial spotter, in other words) man who chanced upon an intriguing UFO sighting and camcorder capture on Sunday 9th July at 1345 hrs. As of yet, ONLY half a minute of material and one still have been published or shown in any media. Therefore, nobody is in a position to make critical comment beyond, for instance, an entrenched position of hostile skepticism. The day after my Press Release the press were camped on our doorsteps and we appeared on nearly every UK radio station in an entirely unplanned and quite unpredictable series of events. There has been much international interest although there is no "hype" from us even if there is panic in other quarters. (There has been a suggestion that I, in particular, had "no future in Ufology" as a result of past liaisons. This week has been a lesson in the eating of many a word - written, spoken (and in private). My interest is the truth about UFOs because, for instance, when the wives of former high-ranking (now deceased) military personnel tell you that the "alien cover-up" is real in some sense you don't just pack your bags and leave...!) Jenny Randles and UFOIN have no idea about our aims and intentions and given her past 20 years of 'marketing'/writing paranormal books, some with a controversial abduction theme, we feel more than jusitifed in bringing our legitimate concerns about increased UFO activity, MOD knowledge of the same and possible air safety matters to both the UFO community and the general public. It is true that BUFOSC has a high profile at the moment but we can handle it and are more than capable of answering difficult questions. With this in mind, we can confirm that RAF Valley, in a letter to us, is unable to identify the object in question - certainly the object recorded was not one of their aircraft. Their counterparts at the MOD cannot make any suggestion as to the nature of the object but we have and are being assisted in this matter by Nick Pope, formerly of Air Staff 2a where he looked into UFO sightings and reports from the public in an official capacity and on a limited basis. He has been most helfpul and Russ Callaghan of UFO Magazine (UK) has offered to separate the audio and video elements for us if necessary. Nick and Russ have shown themselves to be true professionals - genuine and concerned Ufologists. Under these circumstances and given the years of combined UFO research experience currently working with and for the British UFO Studies Centre we should like to thank the ever humble UFOIN for its support and comments but feel more than able to ask, and answer, the revelant questions at the appropriate time. Updates readers will be interested to learn that as a result of the this week, numerous sightings have come our way and Steve Mera of MAPIT, the Manchester-based group, and Philip Mantle are working with us and have also provided us with new sightings. One of these is most unusual indeed and took place, according to the witness, on Sunday 9th July. We are now the spearhead behind renewed calls for a change in MOD policy relating to UFOs, greater openness by Air Traffic Control and a new attitude the investigation of UFO reports. It is clear to me at least that there is indeed Something In The Air. Whilst Ms. Randles current internal bulletin Northern UFO News claims lack of interest in new UFO book projects, others of us have such projects in the pipeline and these might include new cases that we have investigated in great detail. There is great interest in UFOs, because, despite the best efforts of the skeptics, SOME cases remain unexplained. The public has a right to know what is being done, and hidden, in their name...with their (taxpayer's) money. That is where we are coming from. We can provide Updates readers with further information: The footage WILL be shown, with other similar material, at Steve Mera's UK UFO CONVENTION to be held in Cheshire on Saturday September 16th. (Steve's email; s_mera@yahoo.com) Thanks! Tim Matthews - Press Offficer, British UFO Studies Centre. "Keeping it real in the '99!"
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 22 UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes - From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 05:36:50 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 11:36:26 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes - >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 13:51:42 -0400 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> >Subject: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Dear All, Unfortunately, we're having to waste vital investigating time on ill-founded rumours and accusations made by The Usual Suspects - so here goes; Re; the Cheshire Incident/Karl Woods. 1 - Andy Roberts say that Woods is a "close friend" to Eric Morris (!). No, he isn't, never has been and maybe never will be. He has a VERY limited and dim view if Ufology (it'll hardly be improved by Andy Roberts unfortunate comments) and has met Eric on a few occasions in the past. That's all. In fact, both he, his wife and a friend told us that it had taken them two hours to find Eric's phone number! This rumour may come from somebody in the cinema industry. Woods works in the industry and Eric used to until he returned to nursing. 2 - Winter Hill Incident. Neither Andy Roberts nor UFOIN have assisted in any way DESPITE my offer, back last November when Steve Mera asked us to help him with his investigations, to Andy that he should get involved. I specifically asked him to investigate with us - but he declined, choosing instead to launch ill-informed attacks some 7 months later. 3 - The Winter Hill Incident, and a very intriguing business it is too, took place in November - there were no UFO Conferences organised by MAPIT, BUFOSC or myself until February 2000 when 60 people attended our event at Chorley Library. That is a gap of three months. Nothing unusual there, unless your a conspiracy nut. The suggestion of an internally-inspired hoax is, yet again, both untrue and pretty disgusting. But we're used to it I'm afraid! 4 - Falling leaf motion. Not having seen much of the video material, neither Roberts, Randles nor UFOIN are in any position to comment. They can investigate wind speeds if they like! This term has been applied, in this case, by the witnesses, not BUFOSC. It has also been used in the past (from the 1950s if memory serves). 5 - The Knutsford Incident Was investigated by a team of around eight people. Carolyn Buckley did the bulk of the work and later wrote a detailed report. We all agreed that this was a hoax and warned of the activities of Graham Wenham and Caroline Sutton - the hoaxers.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 22 UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Peterborough From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg@attcanada.ca> Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 07:11:59 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 11:38:58 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Peterborough >Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:12:22 -0400 >From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 08:47:41 -0500 >>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@nokomis.com> >>Subject: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 23:38:53 -0400 >>From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >><snip> >>>The E.T. Summer School Weekend will take place August 25. >>>CONTACT: Dr. Richard Boylan, >>>Sacramento, CA; (916) 422-7479 ><snip> >>If he's serving so much as a cracker during an event that is >>being publicized, he requires a food handling certificate - at >>least that's the procedure in Washington State. I imagine there >>are more licenses involved when holding a public 'summer school >>weekend' for children. Hopefully proper authorities will >>imagine this as well. >>This would be disgusting all by itself, but given our >>discussions this week, it's beat some record... at least for >>this moment in time. >>Ann >>Anyone on the list that lives in the area where this "workshop" >>is to be held? If so, make a few phone calls and let the proper >>authorities know about it. Call and ask what sort of permits are >>needed, then inquire if Boylan has applied for them. If he >>hasn't, then you've put a bug in the ear of proper authorities >>that will hopefully shut the man down. >Good idea, especially coming from folks that live in CA. >Meanwhile, a "little birdie" tells me that the California's >Attorney General's Office has already been notified.<squeak >squeak> Maybe I am missing something here, but what is the difference between this weekend workshop or camp and a religious weekend workshop for children? Would a Christian or Buddhist weekend workshop be attacked (or persecuted) in the same manner as this one is? They are all based on beliefs, it seems to me. Kelly
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 22 UpDate: Re: Will This Man Ever Stop? - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 04:24:32 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 12:10:16 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Will This Man Ever Stop? - Hatch >From: ebk - UFO UpDates - Toronto >>Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 14:10:18 -0700 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >>Subject: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Hatch >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 02:15:28 -0700 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >>>Subject: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> ><snip> >>>One question: Was this a news item? If so, who published it? >>>[Wireless Flash - A Broadcaster's Info Service --ebk] >>OK. I don't know anything about this news service. >>Who receives Wireless Flash... radio/TV stations? Newspapers? >>Is this likely to get into the general news, as a human interest >>story at least? >Larry, >As its name implies its a news service for radio stations. Some >of the guys at CFRB take the trouble to pass me tidbits from the >daily e-service. The story in question came to me from one of >them. >As for a "Human Interest Story" - I dunno. Seems to be the 'silly >season' as far as hard news is concerned - it might, but the odds >are probably against it, when editors/newsreaders have such a >large choice of fluff from the 'stack o'stuff' that Wireless Flash >distributes on a weekly and daily basis. >ebk Dear Errol BK: Thanks for the info. I had never heard of that particular service. I hope its not the same one supplying KCBS in San Francisco, they sometimes sound like a broken record. Way back when, we had a discussion of what defines a "skeptic" and/or a "debunker" as I recall. This is not insignificant. As one debunker put it, "If there were less bunk, there would be fewer of us" - I paraphrase of course. Now we have an excellent test case! Dr. Whacko and his summer-camp for alien-hybrid children cannot possibly escape the attention of skeptics and debunkers, honest and otherwise. Here's my proposed test: Lets see who weighs in on one of two fronts. I suggest that an honest skeptic, debunker or what have you will quite rightly trash this idiot, and leave it at that. A potshot or two at other "fuzz balls" is not really out of order given the evidence. I suggest that the dishonest debunker will attempt to trash all of ufology, using the very same tar off the very same brush. Tres simple non? I once got flamed for suggesting that a certain skeptic was expressing honest opinions which differed from mine, and most likely the consensus of this List. Lets see where the chips fall on this one. Oh! One last question or two! Did this radio service ( I've already forgot its name ) provide a _source_ for the story? [Nope --ebk] Did "Doctor Daycamp" provide the original copy himself by any chance? I see they managed to include a phone number and stuff. [More than likely --ebk] Just curious - in Redwood City Anonymous (rhymes with Harry Latch) - Collector of antique cigarette butts - Aficionado of 3-day-old lasagna
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 22 UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes - From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 07:18:23 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 12:43:21 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes - >Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 01:25:58 +0100 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >Subject: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:54:50 +0100 >>From: Jerry Anderson <jerry@uforesearch.freeserve.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Hi, <snip> >The film is nothing special. It clearly resembles a balloon. It >behaves like a balloon. And its small and high against a dark >sky making meaningful analysis difficult. Dear Jenny and all: English language ufology would be much better served if the two sentences above (by Jenny) were put up at the top. Just think of the oceans of time saved if we could all simply see, in a nutshell, the precise Date; Time; Location: Number of observers; and of course the apparent description of the object itself! It would certainly save me a lot of time. Instead of sending useless emails here and there, I could be doing something else. Dear Sirs and Mmes: I must implore you to clearly put the words "NON-EVENT" at the top of all your non-events. I waste oceans of time because of this sort of thing. If you have a barrel of foof, then please plainly label the barrel "FOOF!" If your uncle George saw a night-light in Palm Desert, Scotland, then please title the article " Barmy Scot sees night lights amongst date trees " or some such. Do what you will, but I demand that you stop wasting my time. Regards - Larry Hatch PS: The same goes for Oyster Bay, Saskatchewan. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 22 UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 10:38:09 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 12:47:17 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Mortellaro >Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 23:56:03 -0400 >From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:16:17 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? - Mulvey >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 23:38:53 -0400 >>>From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >>>Subject: Re: Will _This_ Man Ever Stop? >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto >>>>SUMMER CAMP FOR KID E.T. ABDUCTEES > >>>>SANTA CRUZ, Calif. -- When E.T. phones home this summer, he may >>>>be calling from Santa Cruz, California. >><snip> >>How timely. >>Did somebody make a request to Dr. Boylan asking that he provide >>us with an excellent example of kids being abused in this field? >>Since I'm already on a phone roll, I called Dr. B.. It's $50 >>for the weekend. I asked if all the appropriate licenses were >>in place to hold such an event. He said he didn't know what I >>meant - that "this isn't a school - it's just a workshop". I >>thanked him and hung up. <g> >>If he's serving so much as a cracker during an event that is >>being publicized, he requires a food handling certificate - at >>least that's the procedure in Washington State. I imagine there >>are more licenses involved when holding a public 'summer school >>weekend' for children. Hopefully proper authorities will >>imagine this as well. >>This would be disgusting all by itself, but given our >>discussions this week, it's beat some record... at least for >>this moment in time. >>That magic word, "children." Children who must not be exposed to >>stuff such as this. Fascinating. Of course, it's OK to allow >>them to soak up all the culture our Internet, Movies and TV, >>Radio and Games they play has to offer. It's OK. But not THIS! >>Oh no! ><snip> >In my house there is no equivalent in internet, movies, TV, >radio, nor games to somebody using Dr. as their title telling >my children that they have been genetically altered by aliens, >are 'Star Children' etc.. >>It's the responsibility of the parents, if there are any in the >>real sense, anyway. While we are out there doing our thing, no >>one appears to be paying any mind to the real culpricks. >One could easily use the same logic in our struggle to get those >120 families notified. Some of them are kids. 'So what!'... >"Where were their parents?" They're the real culprits - not >Caprenter or Bigelow!" >Yes, parents are ultimately responsible, but sometimes >situations twist and what seemed like a good idea one time, >later turned out to be a very bad idea. >Some very bad ideas are more immediately obvious to most than >others sometimes, and even the best of intentions doesn't change >that. >Just like those 120 files - it's times like the above that >people like you and me and others here have to raise our voices >and say no - that's wrong - it's hurtful to children. Those of >us who experienced the unexplained during scary childhoods have >a greater obligation to make sure some freak doesn't worsen that >for some other innocent kid. >People/Parents will still screw up. But at least there was a >warning shot by people who care. With any luck, the shot will >splash into the hot tub of the genetically altered, puppet >playing fellow who doesn't understand licenses, kids, ethics or >much else. (South Park flashback) Parents are responsible for their children. If they are not parenting, they are simply not doing what they are charged to do. Period. We all make mistakes, but when it comes to our children, there is no room for mistakes. Except those which are not serious. Of course this is purely my opinion, but were it not for parents, there would be far less cruelty among children, far less opportunity for people such as Boylan to make fifty bucks a head, no need for day care, as someone would be home to meet the child at the end of his school day... ad nauseum. I suppose I am just an old throw back seeking the perfect world. But it's not merely a dream. I was lucky to live that life back in the 50's. Close to perfect. So I know it is achievable. There was only one thing from which my parents could not protect me. I learned early on, that it was not them. No one was in a position to help me or anyone for that matter. Of course things like these are hurtful and harmful to our kids. Of course they should be openly discussed and action taken. But nowhere in all the posts I read did I see the name "mommy" or "daddy" mentioned. Shoot, Ann, those are the most important words in our lives. Well, my life at least. Still are, too. Ain't it interesting that now I worry about them the way they used to worry about me? My parents are in Syracuse at a second cousin's wedding. Another cousin drove them. They did not call me when they arrived. So I called their cellphone, the one I gave them to call me on. You shoulda heard me. "Why didn't you call me and let me know you were OK? Huh? I was about to call the state police! Now make sure you call me.... blah, blah." Carry on with the thread. You guys may concentrate on Boylan and the others. I will yell at the parents. This way we'll cover both bases. Now, if you will excuse me, I gotta call my mommy. Jamey
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 22 UpDate: For The Record - Richard Boylan From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 13:39:10 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 13:39:10 -0400 Subject: UpDate: For The Record - Richard Boylan From: UFO UpDates - Toronto For those who unable to search the Ufomind/Aliens On Earth.com site, below is a repost of a November 1996 message by Don Allen. The ban on Boylan-based discussion remains on UFO UpDates. 'News' posts will be considered on a per case basis. Errol Bruce-Knapp, Moderator UFO UpDates - Toronto ------------------------------- Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 13:48:10 -0500 To: updates@globalserve.net From: Don Allen <dona@totcon.com> Subject: Boylan - Board Findings Some of you on the List might be wondering what all the fuss is about regarding Mr. Boylan. This file will go a long ways in introducing the facts as pertains to Mr. Boylan's legal case. Despite the numerous animated protestations of Mr. Boylan, the loss of his licenses to practice were not due to any acts of a "government conspiracy" out to silence Mr. Boylan. Filename: BOYLAN.CAL ====== begin ===================================================== BEFORE THE BOARD OF PSYCHOLOGY DEPARTMENT OF CONSUMER AFFAIRS STATE OF CALIFORNIA In the Matter of the Accusation Against: ) Richard J. Boylan, Ph.D ) License No. PSY-10047 ) No. W-14 ) N--9404129 ) ) Respondent ) -------------------------------) DECISION -------- The Board of Psychology hereby adopts the attached Proposed Decision as its own decision in the above-referenced matter. This Decision is effective as of August 4, 1995. --------------- IT IS SO ORDERED August 4,1995. -------------- By: [Signature appears on document] ------------------------------- Judith Janaro Fabian, Ph.D. Vice-Chairperson Board of Psychology -------------------------------------------------------------------- BEFORE THE MEDICAL BOARD OF CALIFORNIA BOARD OF PSYCHOLOGY ANNE THE BOARD OF BEHAVIORAL SCIENCE EXAMINERS DEPARTMENT OF CONSUMER AFFAIRS STATE OF CALIFORNIA In the Matter of the Accusation ) Against: ) ) RICHARD J. BOYLAN, Ph.D. ) No. W-14 and 2826 O Street, Suite 2 ) LMS-57 Sacramento, CA 958116 ) ) Psychologist's License ) OAH Mos. N-9404129 No. PSY-10047 ) N-9406179 ) MFCC License No. MFC 5943 ) LCSW License No. 4231 ) ) ) Respondent. ) --------------------------------------- PROPOSED DECISION ----------------- On October 24-28, November 2, 15, 16, 18 and 22, December 6, 27 and 30, 1994, and January 11-13, 117, 18 and 31, February 1 and 16, and March 1, 1995, in Sacramento, California, Muriel Evens, Administrative Law Judge, Office of Administrative Hearings, State of California, heard this matter. Robert Miller and Arthur Taggart, Deputies Attorney General, represented the complainants Matheny, Poidmore, Linkert & Sears and Richard S. Linkert represented respondent. Evidence was received, the record was closed July 20, 1995, and the matter was submitted. 1 -------------------------------------------------------------------- FINDINGS OF FACTS ----------------- I Complainants Thomas S. O'Connor, Executive Office of the Board of Psychology, and Scott C. Syphax, Interim Executive Office of the Board of Behavioral Science Examiners, made and files the Accusations in these matters in their official capacities and not otherwise. II On July 16,1987, the Board of Psychology issued license number PSY 10047 to respondent Richard J. Boylan. On October 30, 1972, the Board of Behavioral Science Examiners (BBSE) issued marriage, family and child counselor license number MFC 5943 to respondent. On March 2, 1974, the BBSE issued licensed clinical social worker license number LCS 4231 to respondent. At all relevant times, respondent was engaged in the private practice of psychology. III D.W. ---- Respondent treated D.W., a female, from approximately December 1991 to February 1993. She was referred to respondent by a fellow member of the Incest Survivors Anonymous (ISA) support group she had been attending. D.W. had been involved with ISA for about one year before meeting respondent. She continued with ISA, including a subgroup Nothing Too Heavy to Share,through the Fall 1992. D.W. was 28 years old and an unemployed single mother seeking a therapist who would accept Medi-Cal. Respondent agreed to accept her as a Medi-Cal patient. D.W. presented as a recovering alcoholic with three years of sobriety, and adult child of alcoholic parents, a former abuser of cannabis and methamphetamines and an incest victim. Respondent's initial diagnosis was: Axis I: Post traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD); Dissociative Disorder NOS; Depressive Disorder NOS; Alcohol Dependence, in remission; 2 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Methamphetamine abuse in remission Cannabis Dependence in remission Respondent's plan was to meet weekly or biweekly, as insurance permitted, for treatment of depression and traumatic sexual abuse and to improve self esteem and personal skills. Although initially D.W. was reluctant to try hypnosis, respondent encouraged her to do so to retrieve memories of abuse. During their fifth session, on January 7, 1992, respondent performed D.W.'s first "memory enhancement hypnosis." They covered sexual abuse at age four by D.W.'s mother and at age four to five by her father. Other sessions involving hypnosis followed on occasion, with further recall of childhood sexual abuse and possible ritualistic abuse. In late winter or early spring of 1992, D.W. listened to a radio talk show about abductions by aliens and the use of hypnosis. At a therapy session, D.W. asked respondent somewhat flippantly if he thought these people may have been abused and confused about the memory. Respondent, with a serious face, responded that he thought it might be just the opposite. In the same session, respondent said that he had some patients who may have had extraterrestrial (ET) experiences and he was doing some research on the subject. At the next session, D.W. brought up the ET issue and respondent showed D.W. a book entitled ENCOUNTERS, by Edith Fiori. Soon after that, respondent told D.W. that he was going on a week-long tour of sites of alleged ET activity. According to D.W. (R.T. 10/24/94, 28:8-17): "Q What was your reaction to the doctor's discussion with you about this tour of extraterrestrial sites? "A I felt really nervous for him. I was kind of confused at the time. I was starting to believe that maybe he was -- this was something real. And I was nervous for him, and I told him to be careful. "Q Be careful? What did you mean by that? "A Well, specifically, he said he was going to some very top secret military places. And I was concerned about what might happen to him." 3 -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Respondent had spoken to D.W about a secret government cover-up and involvement of the U.S. military. Respondent told D.W. the sites were connected to government operations involving the flying of ET aircraft, recovered ET aircraft and the building of aircraft using technology learned from ET sources. From what respondent had told her, D.W. feared that on his trip respondent might be abducted by ETs. In or about a June 1992, session, D.W. brought out having daydream-type image or fleeting memory from childhood of a strange-looking man, who may have been a molester. Respondent asked D.W. to describe what he looked like and his height, including his height in relationship to her as a child. The image was not clear to D.W., but she recalled he was not tall and had sharp features and narrow eyes. Respondent then asked D.W. to draw the man, which she did. After that and the conversation set forth below, D.W. had the impression that respondent thought her image was of an extraterrestrial. "Q Can you describe when that occurred to you and why? And why you got that impression in your mind that's what you were being asked to describe? "A [Respondent] asked me to stand up, and he had some sort of tape measure he was holding up. And I stood up, and he was holding -- well, let's see. And he said something like 4 foot or 4-foot something. That's about -- well, it could be a little taller. That's about right. "Administrative Law Judge: He said or you said? "A He said this. It was kind of under his breath.That's when it occurred to me that's maybe what he was thinking that this might be." (R.T 10/24/94 43:9- 20.) The session continued with hypnosis. While under hypnosis, respondent further inquired whether D.W. could describe in more detail the appearance of the man in her image. Then, toward the end, she "started getting an image of that like an extraterrestrial face and this really bright light, being surrounded by a bright light right at the end." (R.T. 10/24/94 47:11-14.) According to D.W., as she came out of hypnosis: "Dr. Boylan was smiling; he was leaning back in his chair and smiling. And I remember feeling really weird. ... I was really 4 -------------------------------------------------------------------- confused and scared. And I was kind of angry at Dr. Boylan for smiling because I was feeling how I was. (R.T. 10/24/94 48:2-8.) In June, respondent advised D.W. that he was starting a support group (CE-IV)[1] at his home for people who have had extraterrestrial experiences. He said that while he thought it was probably premature, he thought D.W. should come to the meeting. Within a week or two of the therapy session, D.W. attended the meeting at respondent's home. About ten people attended and D.W. recognized one from the ISA group. During this meeting respondent played an audio tape by James Harter, explaining his views on extraterrestrials, what they are like, who is likely to be abducted and so on. D.W. continued to attend the CE-IV group meeting about every three weeks and continued with her therapy with respondent, until early 1993. After a few months of attending CE-IV meetings, D.W. brought to therapy a nightmare she had had since childhood. The dream involved floating down a hallway to the foyer and then seeing a monster. At the CE-IV meetings she had heard of similar occurrences among persons who had had ET contact. Under hypnosis, her dream continued. "Then the monster became like an E.T., and then there were other extraterrestrials. And then I was, like, walked out of my home where I saw some bright lights out on the front lawn." (R.T. 10.24/94 70:9-13.) From the time of this hypnosis, D.W. began to identify more with the CE-IV group and feel that she might have had an ET experience. Notes from her therapy sessions show increased ET references, along with continued references to ritualistic abuse. During the Fall of 1992, respondent told the CE-IV group of a UFO/ET conference in Las Vegas from Saturday, November 29 through Tuesday, December 2, 1992. Respondent would be presenting information from his research and experiences and invited others to attend. Because of the expense and other reasons, none of the CE-IV group planned to attend. As the conference neared, respondent told the group that others interested in presenting their experiences could have their way paid to the conference. D.W., R.R. and R.W. signed on to go to the conference to share their experiences. ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------ [1] CE-IV refers to close encounters of the fourth kind, or those involving abductions by aliens. 5 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Before going to the conference, respondent had members of the support group draw "visual representations." D.W. participated, drawing a figure, which was to be from her experience. the last therapy session before the conference, respondent told D.W. that she would be able to go, expenses paid by the conference organizer. Respondent set up a meeting at his house one evening about a week before the departure for the four area participants to plan their trip. Respondent said that part of the meeting would be in the hot tub and that no suits were allowed. Respondent did not allow bathing suits in his hot tub because he believed residual detergent in the suits left "soap scum" in the tub. D.W. went to respondent's house and was the first to arrive. Respondent and his wife were there, R.R. and R.W. then arrived. The others adjourned to the backyard while D.W. hid in the bathroom, afraid to be naked in front of the others and afraid to see everyone else. She was terrified and embarrassed. After the other four were in the hot tub, D.W. wrapped in a towel, went out to the tub and jumped in. They discussed plans for the trip. Following the meeting, D.W. went back to the house, got dressed and left. D.W. did not want to be nude around others, she was uncomfortable with her own body and embarrassed. The four flew from Sacramento to Las Vegas and rented a car. The two women, R.R. and D.W., shared a hotel room. The two men, respondent and R.W., shared another room. The group attended and/or participated in a number of the sessions. On Monday, the four planned a trip to Area 51, a large military area in Nevada where ET activity is alleged to take place. R.R. became ill and unable to go along. R.W. decided to stay in Las Vegas with R.R. At about 4:00 p.m., respondent and D.W. set out in a rental car for Area 51. Unfortunately, due to a navigational error. the two ended up circumnavigating the area and returning about 2:30 in the morning. Upon their return to the hotel, D.W. went to her room and found both R.R and R.W. asleep, although in separate beds. She told respondent. who was in the hall, that the two were in the room. She then went to respondent's room. They were both tired and respondent was due to speak that morning. D.W. undressed and went to one of the beds in the respondent's room; he went to the other bed. After the lights were out, D.W. began moaning in pain, apparently some form of gastric distress as a result of fast food eaten on the Area 51 drive. Respondent offered to give her a massage to help relieve the pains. Both D.W. and respondent were nude, although respondent was covered by the sheet. As D.W. came over to the respondent's bed, she stated she did not want any sexual relationship. Respondent advised her that he did not want one because he did not want to risk his license, his marriage or his therapeutic relationship with D.W. He then gave her an abdominal message. Afterward, he turned over 6 -------------------------------------------------------------------- and went to sleep, expecting D.W. to return to her bed. She did not and slept in next to respondent until the alarm went off at 6:00 a.m. At some point in the Fall of 1992, respondent and the CE-IV group decided to write a book about their experiences. Respondent and his wife were to be the editors and respondent would include his research. The group members would provide individual chapters on their experiences. D.W. had drafted her chapter and rewritten it following her submittal to respondent's wife for editing. Respondent returned a corrected version of her chapter to her at a therapy session in or about late January 1993. There was no written agreement between respondent and D.W. regarding any royalties or profits from the publication of the book. There was no written notice or agreement between respondent and D.W. regarding any research he was conducting of which she was part. In February 1993, D.W. discontinued therapy with respondent and ceased her participation in the CE-IV group. She did not submit a final version of her book chapter. The book was published and her work was not included. On February 16, 1993, D.W. respondent's termination diagnosis of D.W. was: Axis I: Factitous Disorder with Psychological Symptoms Axis II: Personality Disorder NOS (Addiction to Victim Status Syndrome) Passive-Aggressive Personality Disorder. IV K.G. ---- Respondent treated K.G., a female, from approximately September 16, 1991 until mid-June 1992. She presented, at age 32, with a history of childhood physical and sexual abuse, alcohol and cannabis abuse, extreme anxiety and asthma. Her mother is an alcoholic and Vallium abuser and was sent to Patton State Hospital in 1965. Her father raped her sister, who was then 12, (K.G. was about four at the time and had flashbacks of seeing the rape.) The children were placed in care with abusive foster parents. As of September 1991, K.G. was employed and "married" to Janna for seven years. K.G. had been in therapy for 10 years with a female therapist and wanted to try a male therapist to address her prejudice against men in personal settings. 7 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Respondent's initial diagnosis: Axis I: Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). residual state, severe; Alcohol Dependence, residual state; Cannabis Dependence; Depressive Disorder NOS Axis II: Axis II deferred, obsessive-compulsive traits mild Respondent's treatment plan was "intermediate duration biweekly psychotherapy to correct PTSD, enhance identity and intimacy competencies." K.G. had dropped out of graduate school in social work, but was working for a social services agency. She is a fifth degree black belt in a form of Karate. Her asthma could be severe and induced by exercise or stress. Part of her past therapy included breathwork with relaxation. K.G. continued breathwork with respondent. On one occasion, as part of the breathwork, he touched her abdominal area. There was no evidence K.G. considered the touch sexual. In early December 1991, respondent invited K.G. to a special multi-hour session, at his house. Respondent told K.G. to bring a towel, which she thought was for breathwork on the floor. When she arrived at respondent's home, they went into the living room and spoke for a while. He then mentioned the hot tub for water therapy to relax and let go of tension. Respondent directed K.G. to an area to undress and it became clear that the hot tubbing would be in the nude. She was confused, but followed his direction and met him in the backyard. Both K.G. and respondent were wearing only a towel. Both got into the hot tub, with K.G. taking off her towel "at the last second." Respondent and K.G. engaged in some small talk, According to K.G.: "Pretty much I had just had a general increase in anxiety and nervousness and vacillating from questioning -- started to question, 'is this okay?' this has never happened ore been requested by anyone I've worked with, and I hadn't really heard of it being done. So on the one hand, questioning the legitimacy, and on the other hand that scaring me because I didn't want this to not be right and me be participating, so I would flip back into denial and say, 'I'm sure it's okay."... I feel like I just 8 -------------------------------------------------------------------- started to separate, the way I would separate during violent episodes in my childhood, where you just started to go away from your body." (R.T. 11/2/94 19:22-20:5.) Respondent did remark on K.G.'s breathing patterns and gave her some instructions on breathing. At one point, when it had become too hot for them to remain in the tub, they sat on the rim. "...I remember one time taking a deep breath and kind of stretching my hand in an upward direction, and him saying that that was good to breath from that low, and then once he coached me to look at his stomach while he breathed to see how his stomach moved when he breathed ..." (R.T. 11/2/94 20:14-18.) While in the hot tub, respondent "worked" on the upper shoulder area, to relieve tension. He was behind respondent, at somewhat of a 90-degree angle, so that his head was to K.G.'s side. After perhaps "a couple of hours," they got out of the hot tub, dried off, wrapped the towels around themselves and returned inside. K.G. got dressed and went into the living room. Respondent said that he didn't mean for her to get dressed yet, so she undressed again. She returned to the living room and found respondent , still undressed, sitting on the floor, "Indian style." K.G. sat across from respondent, her legs also crossed. Respondent asked K.G. to look into his eye, with their hands connected--her hands palm up, his palm down. After an uncomfortably long period, perhaps three to five minutes without any speaking, respondent burned a triangle incense and asked K.G. if he could burn it around her. He then outlined her upper body with the incense. After that they got up and K.G. got dressed. When she returned to the living room, respondent had also dressed. They say on some chairs and engaged in some "wrap-up" conversation, such as when they would meet again. There was no "processing" of what had happened. On two occasions during her therapy, respondent asked K.G. if she wanted to participate in a group trip to Harbin Hot Springs, a nude resort. One purpose of the trip was to allow women to improve their body image. Respondent and his wife would attend and there would be nude bathing in the hot springs. Respondent declined the invitations. K.G. was seeing respondent about twice a month. WHile they agreed that more frequent sessions would be helpful, K.G. did not have sufficient funds to pay for the additional time. In or about February or March 1992, respondent suggested a barter system where he would provide therapy to K.G., K.G. would provide karate lessons or another service to a third person, and the third person would provide massage to respondent. K.G. knew a 9 -------------------------------------------------------------------- massage therapist and contacted her about the possibility. However, she was not interested. Respondent then suggested Janna, but K.G. did not want to involve her. Ultimately, it was agreed that K.G. would do the massage. Since she had no experience in massage, she contacted her friend for a "couple of hours" of instructions. In an effort to comply with ethical standards, respondent and K.G. agreed to exchange an hour of massage for an hour of psychotherapy. Once that program was implemented, K.G. started weekly therapy, providing massage about every other week. At some point, respondent advised K.G. that he had been to a conference and learned they would have to exchange money for their services. After that, they wrote checks to each other. Respondent came to K.G.'s home for the massage. which occurred in the living room. Respondent preferred nude, uncovered massage. After the massage, he would walk nude from the living room to shower and then return to the living room to dress. K.G. was uncomfortable with the massage and with the nudity. She felt she was not assertive enough to say anything and was intimidated by respondent. "It's easier for me to be assertive with strangers, not with people I'm connected to, let alone dependent on. If Richard Boylan had physically attacked me, I would have physically neutralized him. To deal with him emotionally, I have a weakness. A physical assault straight arm, I could handle it, I wouldn't let anyone harm me, ...but I had a lot of issues with Richard. I was dependent on him, I wanted his approval, and I didn't want to believe this was betrayal." (R.T. 11/2/94 36:15-23.) During the final session, respondent commented to K.G. that if she happened to "graze" his testicles, it would be okay. It was warm outside and K.G.was hot and sweating. She was wearing jogging shorts and a tank top. Respondent suggested that she take her shirt off if she was hot. K.G. did not do so. Later, during that same massage session, respondent asked K.G to work in the lower abdomen and thigh region. K.G. told respondent that she had not been taught to work in that area and had been taught it was inappropriate to have such contact with a client. Respondent ridiculed K.G., indicating something to the effect that it "sounds like a person [referring to K.G.'s trainer] who is worried and up-tight." (R/T. 11/2/94 37:26.) Respondent then offered to demonstrate on K.G. how he wanted the massage done and suggested it would work better if she disrobed. According to K.G.: [T]hat was the light switch, two-by-four approach to me where I thought I was going to be sick, because at 10 -------------------------------------------------------------------- that point, my denial had to stop. And I feel that if there was a pivotal point in my relationship with Dr. Boylan, whether it be in the therapeutic capacity or in the body work capacity, that that was the first time I thought that in a serious way this might not only not be appropriate, but perhaps be sexual." (R.T. 11/2/94 38:23-39:1.) Respondent demonstrated lightly on her stomach, through her shirt, how he wanted to be massaged. He was very conservative. However, when it came time for K.G. to work on respondent, she felt ill and excused herself from the room. Ultimately she finished the massage. She left the room when respondent wrote the check for payment, as she did not feel comfortable being in the same room with him. At the following therapy session, K.G. told respondent that she was uncomfortable and did not wish to continue with the massage arrangement. Respondent "just said okay" and the session proceeded. At the next therapy session, respondent related differently to K.G. He seemed to her to be more distant, aloof. He did not make eye contact or allow her to speak. He left the room twice, something he had not done before, and cut off the session 15 - 20 minutes early. K.G. was so angry about the session that she stopped on her way home to call respondent from a telephone booth. She told him she wanted him to stop inviting her to Harbin Hot Springs and that she no longer felt safe with him. She felt he was violating boundaries and she did not trust him. She told him she was angry with how he handled the therapy session. Respondent then called K.G. after she got home. She restated her feelings. He raised his voice and told her she was getting "A-1 therapy," and was just running away from therapy. K.G. felt respondent was screaming at her. Respondent followed up with calls to K.G. to schedule additional sessions, but she did not return his calls. Respondent added the following diagnosis to K.G.'s chart: Axis II Borderline Personality Disorder Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder V D.S. ---- Respondent treated D.S. from September 1990 through February 1993. She presented, at age 31, with spinal and other injuries from a serious vehicle accident three years earlier, molest by her teacher at age 13 and rape at 18, which resulted in pregnancy. Her parents are alcoholics. She had been diagnosed 11 -------------------------------------------------------------------- with Chronic Fatigue Immune Deficiency Syndrome (CFIDS), a disease which severely limited her ability to work and function. D.S. wanted to find some healing related to the issues of her molest and the distance she felt from her family, the rape and giving up the child for adoption, and the vehicle accident. She wanted to reduce stress, to help cope with CFIDS. Respondent's initial diagnosis of D.S. was: Axis I: Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), residual state Dipthymia, secondary, early onset Psychological Factors Affecting Physical Condition (Provisional) Axis II: Dependent Personality Disorder Axis III: Multiple Musculoskeletal traumata (by history);neuromyelitis, infectious venulitis and immune deficiency syndrome (by history) Respondent's treatment plan called for biweekly sessions "to reduce depression, resolve PTSD symptoms, reduce driving phobia, improve self=esteem, [and] eliminate over-reliance on somatic victimization for sense of identity." During the early part of her therapy with respondent, the focus was on D.S.'s emotional recovery from her accident and her relationship with her family. At session 16, on February 21, 1991, she told respondent about a recurring dream involving small figures which looked like monks at the end of the hall. In the dream, she tried to turn on lights, but none worked. She got angry because she could not see them and hit one of the "monks." After that, they all disappeared. Then the dream would repeat. D.S. had a second dream about a man, dressed in black, whose face she could not see. She wrestled with him; he was trying to kill her. Respondent continued to treat D.S. for the issues she presented at the beginning of her therapy. Respondent told her she did not know boundaries, which is why she "let him (the teacher) do it." Respondent said that in his experience, the lack of boundaries signaled possible abuse at an early age. He told her he thought she had been molested earlier, in addition to age 13. He then used hypnosis to help D.S. "by recovering repressed memories." In the Spring 1992, respondent brought up in therapy the subject of ETs and dwarf-like beings. D.S. reminded respondent of her earlier dream about the monks. Respondent gave D.S. an article from the Atlantic Monthly, August 1991, entitled 12 -------------------------------------------------------------------- "The UFO Experience."He asked her to read the article and see if any of the feelings described were familiar to D.S. The ET material frightened D.S., but also made her more curious. While she thought of the monks as a dream, respondent told her the "dream" was in fact a "visitation." Respondent identified the "monks" as "Jawas," one type or race od aliens.He also showed her photos after his return from his "grand tour" of the Southwest military bases alleged to be involved in ET activity. In some of those photos were drawings of aliens respondent identified as "Grays." Respondent told D.S. that hypnosis might help her learn if she had been abducted by aliens. D.S. was frightened as did not want to know of the "dream" was in fact not a dream. No hypnosis was performed on the monk dream, but respondent brought up the possibility again, suggesting that hypnosis might establish what really happened.Respondent told D.S. that ETs cloud people's minds, making them believe that what really happened was just a dream, a pleasant experience or did not happen at all. Respondent said the only way to find out was through debriefing through hypnosis. While D.S. declined hypnosis, respondent suggested she participate in his CE-IV group, to meet with others who had had similar experiences, processed them and found positive elements. He described the other participants, at R.T. 11/15/94 78:17: A "They were clients and people that came to him. Some with ET experiences, some that found out... that they had ET experiences after seeing him. They were all screened do there wasn't any danger that they were infiltrated by the government." After rejecting several offers by respondent to attend the CE-IV group meetings, D.S. finally agreed, because "he kept bringing it up so I went." D.S. went to her first meeting in or about September 1992. She arrived late and the discussion involved Area 51, the government cover-up and how respondent's telephone was probably tapped, now that he was coming out in public and speaking about ETs. It was discussed that if his phone was tapped, then it was possible that others in the group were also being spied on. D.S. followed the suggestion of a telephone company employee who participated in the CE-IV meetings.When the phone rang, she would pick it up and drop it. She also started using her answering machine to screen calls, because she was receiving calls where the caller would not respond and just hang up. At the next therapy session following the CE-IV meeting, respondent asked her what she thought of the meeting and they discussed the phone tapping issue and other matters from the group. At a later group meeting, respondent and others discussed putting together a book to get the message out. The 13 -------------------------------------------------------------------- format would include personal stories, like an anthology. In a following therapy session, D.S. told respondent that she did not feel that she had anything to write. She did not feel she had anything concrete. Respondent told her "Just write what you have. It's enough." Both at the support and in therapy sessions, respondent provided draft and revised copies of the book's table of contents and his chapter on his experiences. D.S.'s story was included in the table of contents. In therapy, respondent discussed the benefits and risks involved in participating in the book. Among the risks would be placing oneself more in the public eye and "silencing by the secret government." Respondent indicated he would be at higher risk. D.S. believed what respondent said. At R.T. 11/15/94 109:2-8: A "He told me that they have the ability to make a person die very quickly looking like it was natural causes. They have the ability to use a little dart that doesn't leave a trace.They can make a person die of cancer within a few weeks. That he would probably be the target because he was the leader." At R.T. 109:14-16: Q "You say you were concerned for him. Did you express your concern? A "I asked him to be really careful." Also in the Fall 1992, D.S. complained to respondent about difficulties eating and sleeping, and ringing in her ears. She was concerned. Respondent told her that maybe the ETs were doing a tune-up on her. D.S had a second dream in early1993 that she discussed with respondent shortly thereafter. In the dream, she woke up to a distant roar, got out of bed and walked to the living room. There she looked up through the atrium skylight as a pink light was coming down. She felt joy and thought she saw Ghandi. She then felt very peaceful and slept well after the dream.When she woke she felt good about the dream. Respondent suggested hypnosis to more fully explore the dream. D.S. agreed, because the dream had been positive and she felt safe about learning more. Respondent told D.S. that there was a strong possibility of ET involvement. During hypnosis, respondent took D.S. through the dream into the atrium. At R.T. 11/15/94 6:1: A "...I stand under the light in the atrium and then go up through into the sky. 14 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Q "Was he asking you question through the process? A "Yes. Q "What was he asking you? A "'What did it look like? 'Was it a ship?' 'What shape was it?' 'What was it made of?' 'Was it metal?' 'What kind of metal?' 'What did they look like?' 'Was there more than one?' 'Were you standing on a floor?' 'Were there walls?' 'Were there lights?' 'Were there sounds?' 'Was the floor solid?' 'Was it metal?' 'Was it something else?' 'Where was the light coming from?' According to D.S., in her original dream there was no ship and there were no walls. What had been a comforting dream, through hypnosis turned ugly, more like a nightmare. At R.T. 11/15/94 70:25: A "[T]he dream turned into being put on some kind of a table and probed with some kind of probe that really hurt bad, and me feeling very angry about, 'Why are you hurting me?' And that there was something wrong with me and 'Why don't you fix it?' and then one of the -- after this, like escorting me back to my room and I couldn't move, and that was it. In addition, D.S. recalls from the hypnosis session that "They did something. Removed something." None of the above was in the original dream. However, in 1991, D.S. had undergone surgery for the removal of an ovary. At that time she was angry and scared and had a bad reaction to the anesthesia. After the hypnosis, respondent told D.S. that the aliens sounded like they were "reptilians or amphibs." He asked D.S. to draw one of them, but she unable to "put it together." Respondent then sketched one for her, but she did not think it was correct. She told respondent she was scared. D.S. had learned in the CE-IV group that the ETs could return and she was afraid "they" could come back anytime and there was nothing she could do about it. To D.S., respondent did not seem concerned about her fear. He did not explain how the product of this hypnosis was going to help D.S. solve any of her presenting problems. About half way through her therapy with respondent he invited D.S to spend a day at Harbin Hot Springs with him, his wife and a few other patients. The trip would be billed as a regular therapy session and involve certain exercises and soaking in the hot springs in the nude. The purpose of the trip was for 15 -------------------------------------------------------------------- the patients to improve self-esteem and see their bodies as good. Respondent told D.S. the trip would help her heal by becoming comfortable with her body and her sexuality. D.S. declined respondent's invitation because she was not comfortable being nude in front of people she did not know. Respondent repeated the invitation a few times, and each time D.S. declined. After a break of a few months, respondent indicated that there would be a second date scheduled for the trip. He again invited D.S. and she accepted the invitation because she wanted to heal, but felt stressed and anxious. The night before the trip, D.S. left a message for respondent that she could not go. D.S. was part Native American and wanted to learn more about her heritage and participate in Native American activities and rituals. Since about August 1991, D.S. had been participating in monthly prayer meetings as part of her Cherokee ancestry. She had discussed these in therapy with respondent, how it felt really good and how she felt a real connection. Respondent told her that a lot of people who had CE-IV experiences had a need for a spiritual belief and many identified with the Native American belief because of the concept of interrelationship and the living earth. About November 1992 respondent said at meetings and in therapy with D.S. that there was some interest in the CE-IV group in forming a side group dealing with the spiritual aspects of CE-IV, with special interest in Native American spirituality. Respondent asked if D.S. wanted to participate, and she indicated she did. In about February 1993, D.S. got a call giving her the time and place for the first meeting of the side group. D.S. understood the meeting would be to talk about the concept and direction, and to find some connection between CE-IV and spiritual belief. D.S. met respondent and some others at the American River. Respondent brought a backpack with certain Native American ceremonial items in it. He brought out what appeared to be a Hopi rattle, a pipe, tobacco and cedar. He lit some cedar, blew it out and used it to smudge participants for cleansing. He said they would load the pipe, pass it around and each person would say a prayer, smoke from the pipe and pass it on. Respondent asked each person to make a statement about their Native American beliefs. D.S. became frightened by the experience. She did not feel right. She thought the items were being used as a show and that participation was disrespectful. When it was her time to speak, she said she had nothing to add. Respondent became angry with her for failing to participate. A few days later, D.S. went to her scheduled therapy session. By that time she no longer trusted respondent and no longer considered him a caring person. She ceased her relationship with him on the spot. Respondent's diagnosis at termination was: 16 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Axis I: Factitious Disorder with Psychological Symptoms (Psychological Munchausen Syndrome); Axis II: Personality Disorder NOS (Addiction to Victim Identity Syndrome) The evidence did not establish that respondent discussed with D.S. intimate details of his sexual relationship with his wife. VI Respondent has been involved with counseling for about 30 years, first as a Catholic priest, and later as a licensed therapist. He has no prior disciplines. Respondent was employed by community agencies, such as the Marin and Calaveras County Mental Health Departments, before opening a private practice. He is married and the father of two and the stepfather of two. AT the time of the Accusation by the Board of Psychology, respondent was president of the Sacramento Valley Psychological Association. Respondent was not fueled by evil motive. He believes in extraterrestrial life and believes he has had ET experiences. In 1989, he had he had three patients who presented with stories of ET contact. It was those contacts that inspired his interest in researching ET issues. He formed the CE-IV group so that experiencers would have others with whom to share, so they would not feel isolated. While respondent believes that there is nothing intrinsically erotic or wrong with nudity, he also had no understanding that others, and in particular his patience here, might not be as comfortable as he in nudity with others. While he may not have had a sexual motivation, these patients considered at least some of his actions to raise sexual issues. Respondent showed an incredible lack of insight in failing to appreciate the distress he caused these patients. Respondent has participated in individual therapy since these events. Unfortunately, his therapist did not testify. While respondent testified that he has learned of possible errors, he did not express understanding of his misconduct. When he did address the charges, and possible wrongdoing on his part was conditional, or placed responsibility on others. For example, when asked if he would handle the hot tubbing situation differently, rather than saying something like, "I would not do it. I would not put my patients at risk," respondent replied: "Absolutely... First of all, given the fact that a current client was involved, even though I had drawn the conclusion that she had resolved the abuse traumatic issues to the point where there was minimal 17 -------------------------------------------------------------------- to no risk of resurfacing or exacerbation of them, upon further reflection, it has become obvious that one can never have total certainty that a person will not interpret or misperceive or be told by someone else that they ought to have a perspective about that experience. Or in all the other ways in which one can, however innocent an even is,derive a sense of harm. So that is one consideration that would lead me not to reengineer such an event. "Another consideration is that it has become abundantly clear to me by subsequent statements by knowledgeable persons, including the board's experts, that the contemporary reading on standards of practice does not include therapist nudity in the presence of patients regardless of innocence or safety of situation or patient's level of recovery or proximity of termination of therapy." "And I could go on and on if need be, but there are compelling considerations that would make it quite clear to me that that is not a situation that needs to repeat. And in hindsight, should (not) have taken place the way it did." (R.T. 1/12 - 1/13/95 213:5 - 214:8) Respondent said he would not repeat the kind of conduct that occurred here. However, it was not established that respondent has gained any insight, only that he has learned from this disciplinary hearing experience that certain conduct is unacceptable. Respondent never apologized for what he did. Respondent never admitted what he did was wrong. VII Most of the material facts in this matter were not in dispute. In some circumstances, the differences represent the different perspectives of the persons involved. The complaining witnesses, D.W., K.G. and D.S., appeared to testify accurately to the best of their recollection. It was clear that D.W. had a history of being highly suggestible, adopting as her ideas and beliefs those of people around her and authors she had read. D.S. still carried a lot of anger toward and distrust of respondent. K.G. felt she was worse emotionally after her therapy with respondent. For the most apart, respondent was credible, although putting his own spin on events. However, he was also evasive, and at times pompous. He attacked the complaining witnesses' credibility and stability (by his final diagnosis,) yet for the same time period he had been seeking written reports from two of 18 -------------------------------------------------------------------- them for his book on ET encounters and had one (D.W.) accompany him to speak at a UFO conference shortly before his final diagnosis. Respondent argued that he had treated D.W., and especially D.S., for some time before the ET issue arose. However, it arose at approximately the same time for both patients -- March 12, 1992 for D.S. and for D.W., shortly before the respondent left for his reconnaissance tour in April 1992. By this time, respondent was well into his research on the "secret government" and its efforts to disinform the public of UFOs and ETs. He had already advertised for research subjects who thought they might have had ET experiences. And it was shortly before the formation of his CE-IV group. His focus at that time was on extraterrestrial issues. At best he inadvertently allowed that focus to move into therapy as the primary interpretation of dreams and memories. VIII The Board of Behavioral Science Examiners established costs of $9205. No cost declarations were filed by the board of Psychology. DETERMINATION OF ISSUES ----------------------- I While the patients in this matter each questioned, at times, the sexual motivation of respondent, it was not established he in fact has such motivation while providing therapy or other relationships to these patients. It is not necessary for respondent's motivation to be sexual for sexual abuse to occur. Great weight must be given to the "victim's" perspective. Here, however, the victims were not sure what was going on. There was no sexual contact. They were upset and confused. The evidence did not establish sexual misconduct in violation of Business and Professions Code sections 726, 2960(o), 4982(k) or 4992.3(k) II Respondent abused his role as a therapist and was grossly negligent, in violation of Business and Professions Code section 2960(j), 4982(d) and 4992.3(d) in imposing his personal views of D.W. and D.S., as set forth in Finding III and V. 19 -------------------------------------------------------------------- III Respondent committed gross negligence, in violation of Business and Professions Code sections 2960(j), 4982(d) and 4992.3(d) when he developed an inappropriate dual relationship with D.W. that included travel together to and around Las Vegas, as established bt Findings III. IV Respondent committed gross negligence, in violation of Business and Professions Code sections 2960(j), 4982(d) and 4992.3(d), when he gave D.W. a massage in his hotel room in Las Vegas, as established by Findings III. V Respondent committed gross negligence, in violation of Business and Professions Code sections 2960(j), 4982(d) and 4992.3(d), when he invited D.W. to his home in November 1992 and engaged in nude hot tubbing, as established by Findings III. VI The evidence did not establish that respondent suggested that he perform a vaginal examination on D.W. VII Respondent committed gross negligence, in violation of Business and Professions Code sections 2960(j), 4982(d) and 4992.3(d), when he invited K.G. to his home in December 1991 and engaged in nude hot tubbing, as established by Findings IV. VIII It was not established that the act of inviting K.G. and D.S. for nude therapy sessions at Harbin Hot Springs amounted to gross negligence, in violation of Business and Professions Code sections 2960(j), 4982(d) and 4992.3(d). IX Respondent committed gross negligence, in violation of Business and Professions Code sections 2960(j), 4982(d) and 4992.3(d), when he bartered therapy for nude massages from K.G., as established by Findings V. X Respondent committed gross negligence, in violation of Business and Professions Code sections 2960(j), 4982(d) and 20 -------------------------------------------------------------------- 4992.3(d) by shifting the focus of D.S.'s therapy from her presenting problems to his interest in ET encounters, as established by Findings V. XI While it may have been thoughtless, or possibly negligent for respondent to try to recreate a Native American ritual with D.S. present, it did not rise to the level of gross negligence. XII It was not established that respondent discussed with D.S. details of his sexual relationship with his wife. XIII Determinations II - V, VII, IX and X, and each of them are grounds for discipline. ORDER ----- I The Psychologist, Licensed Social Worker and Marriage, Family and Child Counselor licenses issued to respondent Richard Boylan are revoked. II Respondent shall pay costs to the Board of Behavioral Science Examiners in the sum of $9205/ Dated: (August 1, 1995) ---------------- [Signature appears on document] ------------------------------- MURIEL EVENS Administrative Law Judge Office of Administrative Hearings 21 -------------------------------------------------------------------- << end >> Filename: BOYLAN.CAL --- You will learn the truth..but first it will piss you off!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 22 UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Hart From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 10:08:05 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 13:43:24 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Hart >Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:38:54 -0700 >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> >Subject: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >So whatever happened to the lawsuit that was "mysteriously >dropped"? Did a judge actually hear the complaint? Just >curious... >Royce J. Myers III Royce and List, The malpractice lawsuit process was started in May of '97, I believe, and the KC lawyers group took statements from the dozen abductees that signed on. The lawyers took it pro bono so they would not get anything unless the case was won. Over the next year and a half, the lawyers said they spent $50,000 in time and expenses for eight lawyers to collect information and study the case. I'm sure the unusual nature of the case didn't sit well with them though they just stated they felt the case was good, but it would have been prohibitively expensive to file and prosecute. It would be very difficult to prove monetary losses were sustained by the abductees. How do you measure psychological damage? Most have been driven to soul-wrenching tears by the twists and turns in the case. First the aliens and now this... I don't see obvious evidence the case was "mysteriously" dropped. It may be there. I just can't say I see it in the evidence. Robert Bigelow did reportedly make statements to the lawyers during a phone call that he owned the files and this statement again to a representative of the MO State Attorney General's Office in the fall of '99. The Attorney General's Office investigated John for insurance fraud and though "they had a great case", the statute of limitations time limit had, by that time, just past. Gary Hart
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 22 UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes - From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 08:32:53 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 13:49:51 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes - >Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 03:44:45 -0400 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes - >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:54:50 +0100 >>From: Jerry Anderson <jerry@uforesearch.freeserve.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>I have to say that Roberts leaves me quite >>unimpressed with his sarcastic and futile attempt to discredit >>Eric Morris and Tim Mathews Hello all, Andy I saw the video on BBC Newshound-disappointing to say the least. I had hoped it would be somthing that could be more than, say a mylar balloon in the wind (I agree with Jenny R. on this one.). I'm not being sarcastic when I say It should be more than what was put out on the broadcast - I am an experiencer - not a sceptic and I don't see: a metal hull, red orange lights around the rim, et. al. and I don't see a particularly good reference point. The Trent photos are a lot more convincing, the Pheonix lights video is also more convincing. and others... >Hi Jerry - no sarcasm, just the facts I'm afraid. >>Eric Morris and Tim Mathews are seasoned investigators, and >>would have done their groundwork as a matter of course. >So where's the analysis? Why are they choosing to hype a video, >the likes of which we all receive several times a year, >investigate, resolve and move on from? Where is there _any_ hint >that this video is of anything less than mundane - ie a child's >mylar type balloon? <snip> Yep, Pards, Stand and Deliver prove it! <snip> >Sure, it makes ufologists feel self important because of the >media attention but themajority of people shrug and think 'idiots'. This is a great statement, ufology is already permiated with the likes of Reeds, Meiers and the likes Shirely McClain's new website, to even be considered a serious area of endeavour and when you add any "Media Event - the best ever" type of statement, watch out and hold on to your wallet. >And shouldn't we take seasoned investigators with a pinch of >salt? Having a Margurita to go with it doesn't hurt either. >>Why should it matter if Eric knows the person who >>filmed the object - does that make this footage less credible? Maybe it was a friend who had a couple of pints at the local pub and a video camera, and the balloon, as opposed to Venus, was soaring throught the heavens. The commitment was made to announce this before the film was made public. Hey, I can handle that. >* It makes it less credible because they chose to keep this fact >quiet. You know folks, I have to interject this: There is no way short of an actual, physical event in front of God, the News Media and everyone ala" The Day the Earth Stood Still" that we'll ever believe it. Even if Klatuu is featured on the Letterman show in a "Stupid Robot trick" The Sceptics would still doubt it. >* It makes it less credible in the context of hoaxes which >have been perpetrated in the north west over the past year. Ah, the Reed hoax ? better photograpy any way.. >Are _you_ impressed by this video Jerry? If so could you tell us >why? What technical aspect of the objects movement make it >differ from a child's balloon, for instance. >Further to my earlier post and having received a report of >Graham Birdsall on a BBC radio show last night it appears that >he was 'playing down' the alleged quote by Russ Callaghan. But >I'd request again to Russ - did you _really_ say, as quoted in >the BUFOSC press release, that it was: "the best footage I have >ever seen." And would you agree with that Jerry? > >In fact, can we have some comment from others on the List who >have seen this video? What do you think is shown? Do you think >that this is the way to conduct ufology - by media manipulation? >These are serious issues about a serious subject matter. > >Happy Trails > >Andy Well, here is my two bits-One, if a reseacher has proof and by proof, I mean soild, irreducible, scientific, proof E=MC2 proof, then it is their moral duty to humanity to bring it forward whether some SETI resarcher listening to the Trafalmadorian Version of 'Survivor' (I didn't say they would be more advanced) or an actual piece of a UFO , a Toilet seat, A bulider's plate stating that this is a product of the Trafalmadorian saucer works, you know solid . Two , the researcher has the duty not only to Humanity alone, but to themselves to be honest and dare I say forthright, to be able to look at themselves in the mirror, if you will, and be able to put forth their findings with as little Bravo Sierria as possible. I know those folks are out there, and I admire them. GT McCoy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 22 UpDate: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video - Randles From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 19:45:40 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 15:51:09 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video - Randles >Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 20:41:52 -0400 (EDT) >From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:14:07 +0100 >>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >>Subject: Comment On Cheshire Video >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Hi, Firstly, I don't want to get involved in a personal battle with Tim, as this isn't the issue here. Nor is there any reason for it. We have to focus on the case. Since that's what matters. Tim might want to turn it into 'them versus us' but I have never made any attempt to do that, as I am sure is clear. Its a case like any other presented to Ufology by any Ufologists and there is absolutely nothing personal in this at all. That's what Ufology does. Debate the evidence. >The dissemination of an initial Press Release - written by me in >short 10 minutes - to limited media last week led to >unprecedented interest >As of yet, ONLY half a minute of material and one still have >been published or shown in any media. Therefore, nobody is in a >position to make critical comment beyond, for instance, an >entrenched position of hostile skepticism. I am not entrenched in scepticism. I said in my last posting that there may be other evidence we haven't seen yet and IF that supports the claims made about this film then, of course, I will take it more seriously as being important evidence. My point was that not only have we not seen this missing film but we have not seen any meaningful evidence about it. Even here we don't get told what it is about this footage that turns what looks like a balloon on the bits that we have seen into such an important and unprecedented case on the parts that we have not. Surely you can answer that reasonable question. And also say why the media have chosen to use a piece of video in their coverage that I assume you to mean is untypical of the rest (otherwise if its all the same it wouldn't matter how much video we haven't yet seen). Why did they not use a sequence that justifies the strangeness of the evidence? Like I said I ask that purely as a reasonable question that occurs to me as a Ufologist. Not a hostile sceptical attack. > >The day after my Press Release the press were camped on our >doorsteps and we appeared on nearly every UK radio station in an >entirely unplanned and quite unpredictable series of events. >There has been much international interest although there is no >"hype" from us even if there is panic in other quarters. The hype you refer to comes in two ways. Yes, the media went overboard. But why? Because the press release you sent was worded to tell them that this film is of an unprecedented nature that was of considerable significance. I find it very hard to understand how you did not expect attention given that the release was aimed at making the media aware that you had something truly extraordinary. Otherwise why send it out? Now - if you do have extraordinary - that's fair enough. If you don't - its not. That's why establishing what exactly you do have is so important. So, again, its surely fair to ask you to tell us what is on the missing film that is so different from what we have seen so far and that makes this evidence so important? >(There has been a suggestion that I, in particular, had "no >future in Ufology" as a result of past liaisons. This week has >been a lesson in the eating of many a word - written, spoken >(and in private). Who has said this? When and where and why? If you are intending List members to think that I did then its certainly not true. As I trust you will make clear. But in any case - are you then saying the promotion of this film was an exercise in getting back at the (nameless) people you cite above who have (allegedly) said what you claim? Hopefully the point of promoting this film was not to make a personal stake for your place in Ufology. The image of Ufologists 'marking their territory' like dogs is a bit worrying otherwise. I hope that's not what you were suggesting. My interest is the truth about UFOs because, >for instance, when the wives of former high-ranking (now >deceased) military personnel tell you that the "alien cover-up" >is real in some sense you don't just pack your bags and >leave...!) Please tell us more. Especially as this is so at odds with your long stated views on the unacceptability of the ETH and people who have in the past made such statements. So presumably this conversion is very recent? And in what way was the evidence so persuasive that it radically changed your mind? >Jenny Randles and UFOIN have no idea about our aims and >intentions and given her past 20 years of 'marketing'/writing >paranormal books, some with a controversial abduction theme, we >feel more than justified in bringing our legitimate concerns >about increased UFO activity, MOD knowledge of the same and >possible air safety matters to both the UFO community and the >general public. Nobody is suggesting that we know your motives. Where have I said I do? Nor am I arguing that if you have the sort of evidence for which your press releases insist that it is not right - in proper circumstances - to tell all - provided you have first established that all obvious answers fail. But again I politely ask for you to set out why you were convinced that this footage does not show a balloon before you went to the media. If you have good reasons, fine, then I will be happy. But so far you haven't answered that question. We have to trust that you secured it at the start of your investigation, had it when you went to the media with your claims and yet for some reason will not simply set out now that your evidence for rejecting a balloon is (a), (b), and (c). I am not saying that you don't have it. I am not saying this case might indeed not be more interesting as a consequence of such disproof of the balloon option. I am only saying that as you are asking Ufology to consider this case as significant that surely you owe us a sight of why you think so. Because many people on seeing what they have been shown to date think it is a balloon. Not just me. Not just Andy Roberts. Not even just UFOIN. I haven't actually yet met anyone who saw it who doesn't think so! This either means this is a serious contender for what's on the video. Or it means that there is vital missing evidence - research - parts of the video - that the world has not been shown. In which case it is surely reasonable to ask why we haven't been shown it. This is a large UFO community in which we share ideas, debate cases and may often disagree with one another. But I always thought we were on the same team striving towards the same common goal. In what way do you not think this is true? >It is clear to me at least that there is indeed Something In The >Air. Thank you for promoting my book of that title. As I am sure you knew perfectly well (with the above inside joke) was arguing that there was a worrying rise in mid air encounters and that air safety was at risk across the UK some in l998 when it was first published. (As 'UFO Danger in the Air by Sterling in the US) >Whilst Ms. Randles current internal bulletin Northern UFO News >claims lack of interest in new UFO book projects, others of us >have such projects in the pipeline and these might include new >cases that we have investigated in great detail. Why are you making this into some personal battle? I have two books under contract as well, and a third written and due out soon - but this isn't a game of show me mine and I'll show you yours. The List doesn't want to hear about your books or my books right now. It wants to hear about the facts of this case. This is a serious, friendly discussion on the importance of a case alleged to be of massive significance to Ufology. Or at least I thought it was. >There is great interest in UFOs, because, despite the best >efforts of the skeptics, SOME cases remain unexplained. The >public has a right to know what is being done, and hidden, in >their name...with their (taxpayer's) money. Which is not under dispute by anybody on this List I would imagine. Certainly not by me. But again its nothing to do with the question of what's on this film . So lets stick to the proper debate. And I say that non-maliciously and with no hidden agenda. These are simply questions that I feel deserve an answer. Best wishes, Jenny Randles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 23 UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Mulvey From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 15:32:14 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 01:03:02 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Mulvey >Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 10:08:05 -0500 >From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:38:54 -0700 >>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> >>Subject: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>So whatever happened to the lawsuit that was "mysteriously >>dropped"? Did a judge actually hear the complaint? Just >>curious... >>Royce J. Myers III Hi Gary, I'm sorry if I sound like a ditz, but I'm confused. If there's more reference data that I need to read please point me in that direction. I know you're busy, so if anybody else can shed some light on this for me, please do. >The malpractice lawsuit process was started in May of '97, I >believe, and the KC lawyers group took statements from the dozen >abductees that signed on. This is a different case against Carpenter which ended up fizzling? I'll assume these 12 are included in the 140 cases that Carpenter sold and that they were part of the 20 that already knew about the sale. >Robert Bigelow did reportedly make statements to the >lawyers during a phone call that he owned the files and this >statement again to a representative of the MO State Attorney >General's Office in the fall of '99. Again with only 20 of those 140 indivuals being aware that their files had been sold to Bigelow? Pass the Exederin please. Ann Call: Bigelow 702-456-1606
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 23 UpDate: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video - Randles From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 23:08:05 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 01:05:32 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video - Randles >Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 20:41:52 -0400 (EDT) >From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Whilst Ms. Randles current internal bulletin Northern UFO News >claims lack of interest in new UFO book projects... Hi, Just as a curious aside that may provide insight into Tim's use of words. His above description of Northern UFO News as an 'internal bulletin' should be compared with the facts. Northern UFO News is a subscription magazine that I edit and it has no ties to any organisation (such as UFOIN) whatever. So I am not sure to what it could be considered 'internal'. It has been edited by me for 25 years and issue 184 has just been released. Between 200 and 300 copies (are produced of each edition and it is received by people in 17 countries. So its definitely not internal to Britain either. I am not for one moment suggesting it is any big deal (its not) and I do not make efforts to promote, advertise or market it since I prefer it to remain small enough for me to handle on my own and in my spare time. But I leave you to judge if the words 'internal bulletin' adequately convey the reality behind this publication. Best wishes, Jenny Randles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 23 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Brookesmith From: Peter The Duke of Mendoza Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 19:40:57 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 01:13:32 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Brookesmith The Duke of Mendoza presents his compliments: >Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 21:22:25 +0100 >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Can anyone tell me if Jerome Clarke actually answered Peter >'God's Gift To Satire' Brookesmith's question about the lack of >an entry for Gotlib? Yes, I can, and the answer is No. You may recall that Jerome regarded my comment on the absence of any mention of Gotlib or BAE as a "pointless swipe" at his Encyclopedia. Which it wasn't. It was an echo of Chris "Smiley In Particular" Rutkowski's note that Gotlib and BAE had (and has been, and is) systematically ignored by most commentators on abductions. Jerome's "ignorance", in a work that is in so many other ways so comprehensive, struck me as the most egregious example of this. When I had less than a straightforward answer as to why, naturally my inclination was to persist in pestering. Jerome didn't answer the San Antonio Sasquatch's like query either, considerably less satirical than mine though it was. So I would tend to conclude that it's not just pique on Jerome's part at my mocking his notorious amour-propre that generates his evasiveness. Dennis offered some reasonable excuses he could latch on to, after all, but got a laconic (and perhaps to some eyes, rude) "Whatever" for a reply. I, in contrast, was advised to get a life, which I tend to regard as an example of Jerome, in common with a number of modern philosophers, offering helpful advice to people who are happier than he is. Thus illustrating to those of discernment and taste his qualifications for the deliberately pointed soubriquet of Boy Bishop. We also had the patently absurd assertion that the Clark MEL stood or fell on its own. As if Jerome had had nothing to do with it whatever. Even a _post_-modern philosopher should be able to see through that bit of arm-waving. >Also, can any anyone tell me where I might obtain a copy of >Gotlib's "Bulletin of Anomalous Phenomena". According to a post that I can't find (sorry) it seems to be, or is about to be, available on CD. Which is good news. Perhaps Jerome will now read it, and give it a mention in a future edition of his admirable encyclopedia. best wishes Peoplesdome D. Milestone Bespoke Lampoonist
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 23 UpDate: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 7-22-00 From: Rense E-News <e-news@the-i.net> Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 18:12:24 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 01:19:43 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 7-22-00 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Jeff Rense Weekly E-News ---------------------------------------------------------------- The Week Ahead 7-23-00 thru 7-29-00 Guests, Announcements, Week's Top Stories From sightings.com Jeff Rense E-News is distributed exclusively by Free Subscription. --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- * GUEST CORNER * AWESOME EVIDENCE OF ADVANCED ALIEN INTELLIGENCE By Jan Lamprecht For many decades now many people have been looking for evidence of advanced Alien life in space - hopefully nearby. So far, there is no evidence of such life... A short while back I was watching the BBC's "Earth" Series of geology programs. In the last episode of that program I saw something which sent chills running up and down my spine. It was the most incredible thing I'd heard on a science program, and yet, nobody seemed to even be batting an eye-lid at these amazing facts. When I was interviewed on Jeff Rense's "Sightings" show last year, he mentioned the various coincidences regarding the presence of the Moon. For example, there is a big mystery surrounding the Moon's existence and how it got here. The odds against random capture are billions if not trillions to one. This has led some people to suggest that the Moon was STEERED into orbit by someone. Pretty impressive huh? Amazingly too, the angular diameter of the Moon, as seen from the Earth matches that of the Sun, as seen from the Earth almost exactly thereby giving rise to total eclipses. In my book "Hollow Planets", I made the point that maybe our view of the universe is back-to-front or inside-out. What if, our whole view of the universe is SKEWED by the fact that we live on the OUTSIDE of a planet? Thus, we think (naturally), that all life forms should exist on the outside of planets and that's where we go to look. We never stop to think that maybe we are NOT THE NORM! Our whole thinking is conditioned around the concept that we are THE NORM. Logic dictates that this is the MOST LIKELY possibility. Yet, what if our views are wrong? For example, life on the outside of planets is actually a dangerous business. Think about it. Living on the OUTSIDE of a moving object is not a good idea. It is like someone driving a car at break-neck speed along a highway with you sitting on the hood!!! That's crazy isn't it!? And yet, living on the outside of a planet is no crazier. There is ample evidence that life here is dangerous. Meteors are the main danger. Even tiny meteors can decimate life on the outside. And meteors are a real danger. Lots of them abound and it is only a matter of time before we are struck by them. The surfaces of neighbouring worlds are pock-marked with craters caused by them. Even a single strike could decimate the world. And yet, evidence shows that the Earth must have been struck by these objects countless times before. But life on the surface is more dangerous than that. There is a lot of evidence of Pole Shifts on planets. There are scientists who have noted that the Moon and Mars and many other worlds may have undergone Pole shifts and flipped over - partly. In fact, as I pointed out that there is not a single world in this solar system that is lying at the correct angle that it should. If all the planets were formed from a rotating gas cloud then all of them should be rotating in the same direction and be inclined at the same angle. But this is not so. In fact, no two planets are inclined at the same angle, and some are very far from the norm. For example, Uranus is inclined at 89 degrees and therefore is "lying on its side". Venus, rotates in a retrograde manner which means it is technically "upside down". All the worlds lie inclined at different angles. I therefore proposed that Pole Shifts are endemic to all planets. In fact I went a step further and said that Pole Shifts are a sign of Hollow Planets. But, let's put that aside for the moment. The bottom line is that Pole Shifts must be endemic to all planets. Now lets go back one step. If Pole Shifts are endemic to planets, then what is their effect on LIFE? Past history of the Earth, in terms of what scientists call "Polar wandering" suggests that Pole Shifts are cataclysmic and cause the extinction of many species. Pole Shifts must be accompanied by earthquakes and cataclysms. Such things are NOT conducive to life. There is, I believe, one argument that is FRIGHTENING in its implications in showing that our position here upon the Earth is completely UNNATURAL and therefore something that has been planned and devised by a higher intelligence. It is this. In the BBC's Earth series they ended on a rather strange note. They mentioned the calculations done by a French scientist. He wrote a computer program to calculate the effects of planets and the Moon on the rotation of the Earth. He found that when he factored in the presence of the Moon, that the Earth wobbled slowly around its axis (precession) over a period of 26,000 years. Then, he did a fascinating thing. He removed the Moon from the equation. His model then showed that the Earth, like all other planets without large moons like ours, would then become UNSTABLE. Over a long period of time the Earth would flip this way and then that, and even lie on its side like Uranus does. And that was when it all struck home to me, sending chills down my spine. If the Earth were a "normal planet" and were that unstable, it would destroy all the life on its surface. If the Earth wobbled this way and then that way, it would cause tremendous harm to all the things living on its surface. Instead, the presence of the Moon, and the Moon alone, makes the Earth a much more stable place. So, going back to the fact that the Moon must have been steered here, it would seem that maybe, those who steered it here did so with the purpose of using it to stabilise this planet's rotation. This planet does still suffer from some kind of Pole Shifts, but they are not as great as they would otherwise have been. Could it therefore be, that whoever put the Moon here, ALSO put US here? And that whoever did this must therefore have an intelligence so great, and a science so great that it boggles the mind. Whoever did all this must have a status equal to that of a God or Gods. They put us here, and upped the chances of us surviving in such a dangerous environment. They knew they were putting us in a dangerous place - but they improved our chances of survival - from Pole Shift disasters. It still does not solve the meteor strike problem, but maybe our civilisation is not meant to run for all that long anyway that meteor strikes should become an issue. All this suggests to me that the presence of the Moon is definitely NO ACCIDENT, and that the presence of the Moon must therefore be linked to the presence of life on the outside of the planet - and that it is an aid to the existence of life here. Surely this proves that there is an incredible intelligence out there with capabilities which stun our little minds!? Regards, Jan.... [pbs@iafrica.com] (WWW.HollowPlanets.com) ------------------- Opinions and facts presented in the Guest Corner are those of the writer and do not necessarily represent those of Jeff Rense, Sightings, sightings.com or the newsletter editors. Past and present guests: to be showcased in "The Guest Corner", please email mailto:e-news@the-i.net?Subject=Guest_Corner --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- "When I dare to be powerful, to use my strength in the service of my vision, then it becomes less and less important whether I am afraid." -- Audre Lorde (1934-1992)....poet --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- The Immortal By J. J. Dewey Is John, the author of the Apocalypse, the Apostle, the Beloved, still walking the earth as a teacher of mysteries? This is a book about one man's encounter with a Master of Wisdom. http://www.hiddenmysteries.com/redir/index24.html --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- * TOP STORIES * Just a few of last week's most intriguing! http://sightings.com * Astronaut Reveals NASA Mind Control Program Involving Children * Women Carrying A Deadly Secret * 'Right Brain' or 'Left Brain' - Myth Or Reality? * Vermont Sheep Mad Cow 'No Threat' To Humans...But Don't Eat The Cheese! * Carnivore Eats FBI * Going...Going...Gone...Two Thousand Vegetable Seeds Eliminated! * Work Stress Actually Boosts Body's Immunity * Scientists Break Speed-Of-Light Barrier * New Bohemian Grove Secret Ritual Photos On The Net * 5.2 Million UK Taxpayer Files Vanish! * Coverup? 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 23 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Stacy From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 19:26:14 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 01:22:08 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Stacy >Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 21:22:25 +0100 >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Evenin' all >Can anyone tell me if Jerome Clarke actually answered Peter >'God's Gift To Satire' Brookesmith's question about the lack of >an entry for Gotlib? Uh, not exactly. What he did say, ultimately, was that the UFO encyclopedia stood or fell on its own, and its hard to argue with that. Writers, editors and publishers are all forced to make hard choices, so it doesn't necessarily bother me that Gotlib didn't get (which is different from warrant) his own biographical entry. I was surprised, though, to see that he and his newsletter weren't mentioned at all, if we are to believe the encyclopedia's index. (And, remember, mistakes can be made here, too.) >Also, can any anyone tell me where I might obtain a copy of >Gotlib's "Bulletin of Anomalous Phenomena". If you had been assiduously following this thread, you would have noticed that someone posted a URL for same, which I don't have the time to go back and look up for you. Try a web search for David Gotlib. Failing that, try the Bulletin of Anomalous Experience (I believe, not Anomalous Phenomena, as you have it). And that's Jerome Clark, not Clarke. See how easy it is to overlook a detail or two here and there? Dennis Stacy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 23 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Brookesmith From: The Duke of Mendoza - Peter Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 21:08:42 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 01:24:41 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Brookesmith With the Duke of Mendoza's compliments, and acknowledgement of the belatedness of this reply: >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:34:13 -0400 >Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:13:02 -0400 >Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Hammond >>Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 20:25:05 -0400 >>From: Peter Brookesmith, Duke of Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Selling Files >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> ><snip> >>Anonymity generates its own difficulties -- for example: how >>does investigator B confirm, check, or burrow into the details >>of investigator A's case if he can't contact the subject >>directly, or if he doesn't have an identity around which to >>investigate a background? >The above is an interesting point and one I never really >considered. Would we have researchers going door-to-door like >FBI Agents doing a background check? The thought of this makes >me, and I'm sure every abductee, shiver. I really don't want my >92 year old next door neighbor to think of me as a nut who >thinks she sees Aliens! Dear Liz: For a start, your neighbor may not think of you in any such terms! But I was really thinking of basic fact checking, which ought not to involve blabbing about whom one's enquiring or why. Suppose Subject X claim to have extensive contacts with aliens, some of them in the company of others. Miss X also declines to discuss her (admittedly unhappy) childhood in Kenya, but talks quite freely about parts of it. She also maintains she has psychokinetic abilities and once to have had a mysterious "disappearing" pregnancy, as proof of which she can show you a gynecologist's bill. Researcher A dutifully puts all this down in the file but doesn't identify Miss X. Researcher B, reading said file, wants to -- and for once has the resources to -- track down the allegedly independent witnesses, talk to family and friends in Kenya, test the PK abilities, and talk (with all permissions given) to the gynecologist -- all items that have been beyond the ability or imagination of Researcher A. Yet they're all relevant to the questions of (a) what happened (b) an assessment of (a)'s reality (c) any alternative explanations. None of that research need involve revealing (or even questioning) Miss X's status as an "abductee". But what does Researcher B do if he doesn't have Miss X's ID? What if Researcher A is a fanatic True Believer like a certain defrocked jacuzzi artist in California, and Researcher B is yours truly? When a major abduction promoter like Hopkins will, to all intents and purposes, share his files only with those he trusts (ie on his "side"), there's not much chance of this phenomenon getting any impartial assessment. Which in turn means no recognition from establishment science. Note well that I say this as one who's appalled by the Carpenter Sale, not unsympathetic to abductees, and certainly not against people who think they're abductees wanting to remain anonymous. I merely point out the problems involved in blanket anonymity. And, as I pointed out before, anonymity is not what all abductees seek. >>I don't think the abduction phenomenon has any one cause >>or any simple causes: >What do you think the cause/causes might be? They *might* include interpretations of sleep paralysis or "night terrors", cryptomnesia, leading questions put under hypnosis (this is a much more subtle matter than discussions in the proponents' literature acknowledge -- I wish a good barrister/attorney would address it), tricks of memory, a *desire* to be an abductee, hallucinatory artefacts, false memory, psycho-physiological reactions to anomalous environmental events, and so on and so on. It would be surprising if some soi-disant "abductees" were *not* "little nobodies who want to be on TV" but I don't think that's either a helpful assumption or true of the generality. (I have to repeat this occasionally.) What may apply in any one case depends on the individual. Which is why I think those who presume a reality, nuts & bolts and flesh & blood style, to apparent abduction experiences are useless researchers: they're not testing the possible alternatives (or even some basic acquired information) to the limit in each and every case. There remains a difficulty for the skeptical, however. Personally I favor the notion that for some people there is an actual experience behind some abduction narratives. The problem is in explaining convincingly (beyond but not necessarily excluding the psycho-social "interpretation-of-cultural-data" hypothesis, which incidentally strikes me as reasonable) why so many different experiences are interpreted and perhaps even experienced in much the same terms. The point is illustrated most graphically by the case of David Howard, who claimed to have no real knowledge of UFOs or abduction stories, yet dreamed a classic abduction sequence many times while in a narcoleptic trance. There's no question his "experiences" didn't happen in any objective sense, but they were utterly real to him -- or rather, he couldn't have distinguished between his memories of those dream experiences and his waking memories had he not known he was narcoleptic. Not only do we have a memory/reality/truth knot to untie in there, we also have to solve how it is that David H. reproduced in exquisite detail the abduction scenario without, apparently, being familiar with it, or being led by a TB hypnotist, and so on. If Howard can produce this stuff spontaneously, how can anyone (and I include you) _not_ question the reality of the abduction experience or memory? >For myself, I welcome an open debate on this. It's possible to >disagree on a subject and get you're point across while >remaining a respectful lady or gentleman. Everyone would learn >from a debate of this nature, I think. Well, you can see I'm >pretty naive, but one can always hope, right? Yeah, one can hope. Attempts have been made from time to time on this very List. They fell apart into entrenched positions and acrimonious allegations pretty quickly. The discussion, if that's the word, over "researching" children's abduction stories seems to be teetering on the edge of that already. Such is ufology; it's part of its charm. Given the variety -- ranging from startling, bizarre and unpredictable to irremediably and admirably conservative (guffaw) -- views represented even by the minority of subscribers who post to this List (some of whom seem to have nothing else to do), I doubt this is the place to make much progress. So that's a challenge and a provocation. best wishes Peter B
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 23 UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - From: The Duke Peter of Mendoza Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 22:01:31 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 01:31:51 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - The Duke of Mendoza presents his compliments to the List: >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 03:15:38 -0400 >Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:38:47 -0400 >Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Velez John complained about the derisive terms in which I referred to Linda Napolitano (is that straightforward enough for everyone?), viz "Linda Cortibalone", the "Cortaweenie case" and "Cortaloone's son", and went on to say: >Ok Peter, so you try to 'slip one past the goalie' and use your >response to Liz to play on an old saw of yours, Hopkins/Cortile, >which is fine (if you can get away with it!) :) That's ok Peter, >you usually have something of value to contribute. But then you >soil yourself by ragging on Linda Cortile, an abductee, with >complete disrespect and disregard. The Cortile/Napolitano case is more than an old saw of mine, it's a sore on the proverbial ass of ufology. It's a reasonable test case. If you think there's anything to it, having read the book "Witnessed", you are defective in either knowledge or intelligence. No shame in not being able to say at once that molluscs do not eat rocks; I had to do some double-taking on that one myself. But, my dear, the logic -- and the lack of taste! I don't think Linda C-N is an abductee. Her conduct a propos her "case" and demeanor since (see ancient posts to this List circa late 1997) leave me entirely unimpressed. I think she is a fake, but I will concede that her special form of hokum may well include a huge wodge of self-delusion. She has done nothing to earn my respect (especially with regard to her son, as previously mentioned -- but of course that's just "moral grandstanding"). Anyone could say a lot worse about her than giving her a few flip names. I give myself enough, after all, besides. However I do apologize for having unintentionally contributed to outbursts of sentimentality from Dennis Stacy and Jerry Clark. I'm told Linda is an awfully nice person in the flesh, too. What the niceness of persons or their friendly relations have to do with anything we discuss here, or why it's necessary to advertise them, is slightly beyond me -- can you imagine the question arising in a real intellectual discipline? "We disagree over nearly everything," said Satan in an interview last night, "but that Jesus is really just one of the lads. I've never known him miss his round in the Skunk & Cuspidor" -- other than the recognition that John's admonition was as one friend to another. And if that wasn't apparent from his post, I could become a trifle glum. best wishes Public D. Monument White Sepulchre
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 23 UpDate: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 22:52:20 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 15:49:02 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video - Mortellaro >Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 19:45:40 +0100 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >Subject: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 20:41:52 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:14:07 +0100 >>>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >>>Subject: Comment On Cheshire Video >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Hi, >Firstly, I don't want to get involved in a personal battle with >Tim, as this isn't the issue here. Nor is there any reason for >it. >Artful Dodgerly Snipped >These >are simply questions that I feel deserve an answer. >Best wishes, >Jenny Randles Dear Jenny, List-eners and EBK, I am so happy to read that the same old, same old, exists in the Fatherland (as in the Motherland). Except that now, seemingly, the War for Independence is a Revolutionary one. That's supposed to be amusing. However, I do agree with Ms. Randles. I would like to know the answers to her questions and mine below ... 1) Where's the _beef?_ 2) Why will you not show us yours? I would show you mine, but mine is so ... so contemptibly limited as to be a _no show_. Beast personal regards, Jim Mortellaro
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 23 UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Myers From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 21:01:00 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 15:51:33 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Myers >Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 10:08:05 -0500 >From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:38:54 -0700 >>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> >>Subject: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>So whatever happened to the lawsuit that was "mysteriously >>dropped"? Did a judge actually hear the complaint? Just >>curious... >The malpractice lawsuit process was started in May of '97, I >believe, and the KC lawyers group took statements from the dozen >abductees that signed on. The lawyers took it pro bono so they >would not get anything unless the case was won. Over the next >year and a half, the lawyers said they spent $50,000 in time and >expenses for eight lawyers to collect information and study the >case. >I'm sure the unusual nature of the case didn't sit well with >them though they just stated they felt the case was good, but it >would have been prohibitively expensive to file and prosecute. >It would be very difficult to prove monetary losses were >sustained by the abductees. How do you measure psychological >damage? Most have been driven to soul-wrenching tears by the >twists and turns in the case. First the aliens and now this... >I don't see obvious evidence the case was "mysteriously" >dropped. It may be there. I just can't say I see it in the >evidence. Robert Bigelow did reportedly make statements to the >lawyers during a phone call that he owned the files and this >statement again to a representative of the MO State Attorney >General's Office in the fall of '99. The Attorney General's >Office investigated John for insurance fraud and though "they >had a great case", the statute of limitations time limit had, by >that time, just past. "Mysteriously dropped" was the exact wording Katarina Wilson used in her article regarding this issue, which seemed to elude to something more since she didn't state the reason why the suit was no longer in litigation or never made it there. I was just curious as to some not so mysterious details. Thanks for clarifying. Regards, Royce J. Myers III eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy - "Don't Trip On Your Open Mind" eXpos News http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3 UFO Hall o' Shame http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 23 UpDate: Re: NIDS Discussion Forum - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 00:18:34 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 15:54:29 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: NIDS Discussion Forum - Gates >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:50:55 -0400 >From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >Subject: NIDS Discussion Forum >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Dear List Members, >I just posted a message on the NIDS Discussion Forum. >Regardless of your position on abductions, other bizarre aspects >of this field, or me<g>, please back me up. >The title of my message is: 120 Families Need to Know >http://www.nidsci.org/resources/forum/Read/ >Hopefully the message will still be there. The forum is down for "maintance". I am curious what will be on the forum if and when it comes back up. Who knows? Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 23 UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 00:34:17 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 15:57:22 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Gates >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 02:19:08 -0400 >From: John Velez<jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter >To: updates@sympatico.ca >I mentioned in my last post that I had a call in to Budd >inquiring about John Carpenters remark that Budd has supplied >him with "cases." Following is Budd's response. As you will see, >Budd misinterpreted my original question. He thinks I inquired >if he ever "referred" anyone to John C. which is not what I was >asking. My response to Budd follows his e-mail to me. <snip> >My question was not whether you ever referred "abductees" to >John. My question related to a statement that John made on the >CompuServe UFO Forum about you having supplied him with abductee >-cases.- The quote from the posting is as follows: >Allegedly with his work with the MUFON abduction transcription >project he presumably would have had full access to MUFON >abductee files (besides his own), not to mention copies of files >that other researchers may have sent him. For example in the >Alien Zoo interview he is alleged to have made the claim that >Budd Hopkins has sent "cases". This was from my original post on UpDates. I see it made it to the compuserve UFO forum. Out of curiousity did the entire post make it, or only this excerpt. >The word "cases" could be interpreted to mean 'abductee >referrals' or 'abductee files.' I was asking you if it was >"files." Before I touched the phone I knew what your answer >would be. I know you. But, I needed a direct statement from you >so that I could nip this in the "budd" so to speak. I'm sorry >that you find yourself caught up in this but it is an important >issue for every abductee and I suppose that some of the honest >and ethical folks will just have to weather out the sh*tstorm as >best they can. Apparently he in fact sent copies of at least one file to JC. The name of the person involved was named in a recent post as being one of Budd's people he worked with. If that is true, as JC mentioned that he got some "cases" from Budd, and this information is correct, although Budd didn't "sell" the files, he apparently had no problem "giving" them to some one else. From what we now read, apparently Walt knew about the sale, and apparently saw no problem with selling what was billed to him as JC's personal files as long as they were blacked out. (Apparently JC lied to Walt) I am grateful the entire issue came to public light. Apparently its been going on for three years. Who knows, it might have gone on for 20 years if not for people such as John Valez and others. From the tone of Gary Hart's post, I suspect we have only see the tip of the iceburg. Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 23 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Stacy From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 00:20:18 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 16:01:09 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Stacy >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:27:21 -0700 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.coAbductee Files/Our Childrenm> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Children have often been involved in abduction work. It may come >as a surprise to James [Easton] and perhaps to others, but children of >abductees routinely -- and entirely on their own -- report what >sound like abduction experiences. Or so many abductees have >said. Greg, List, These are exciting times on UFO UpDates, with many questions of true importance and implication being addressed almost by the hour. Unfortunately, I find myself more than usually wrapped up in John Lennon's observation that life is what happens while you're making other plans. As much, in other words, as I would like to actively address all the recently raised issues, life has made other plans (I won't bore you with the details), and my time is severely limited. That said, a few quick comments, which, paltry as they are, are nonetheless more than J. Clark seems able to muster. Is anyone else besides me surprised by his conspicuous silence on the subject? Just curious. Let's begin lightly. If you weren't aware of the internal contradictions of your own above paragraph, let me point them out. On the one hand you say that children of abductees routinely report "entirely on their own" what sound like abduction experiences, but then go on to say "or so many abductees have said." So which is it? Have the children come forth on their own (and if so, to whom?), or have the abductees (presumably their parents) come forth for them? Big difference, I hope you would agree. >I heavily stress the words "entirely on their own." Nobody with >any sense would approach a child, especially their own child, >and start asking questions like, "Have you ever been abducted by >aliens"? Or, "Have you ever had creatures with big black eyes >come into your bedroom?" Agreed. But why assume any such questioning by parent or researcher would be so blatantly crude to begin with? Let's assume they're subtilely and simply asked, "Did you have a strange dream last night," or "Did anyone enter your bedroom while Mommy and Daddy were asleep"? An invitation to fantasy or not? But why worry about the questioning aspect at all if the children were entirely forthcoming on their own? Forthcoming to who? Seems to me the problem is now one of follow up questioning, by whom, and under what circumstances, forgetting for the moment whether children are proper interview subjects for this sort of thing or not. Short example: your son or daughter tells you that doctors took him away at night. Do you console him by saying that you didn't see any doctors, or do you begin grilling him as to what the doctors were wearing and what they _really_ looked liked? >But it's a different story when a kid comes to you and says >"Little doctors came to my room last night and took me to the >sky." Or, "I saw monsters last night. It wasn't a dream." Or, >"Bad people came to my room and made me go in their spaceship." >Skeptics may widen their eyes in horror at all this, but I >suggest they first talk to some of the many abductees who've >reported such things from their own kids. The abductees, >needless to say, are shocked. They haven't gone around talking >about abductions in front of their young kids. And now the kids >apparently are reporting what sound like abductions on their >own. Actually, it doesn't take a skeptic to be horrified, or, if not horrified, at least concerned and asking askance about the child's future welfare and exactly what the hell is going on here. Once again, you've said on one hand that this is forthcoming from the child him or herself, then say that this is what their parents report, parents who, presumably, have passed their own apprehensions down the family chain. Even if the parents haven't, society has, unless we have a plethora of abductees who have somehow managed to block their children off from all media references to outright alien abductors, never mind similarities to all sorts of doctor, crime, and news TV shows overflowing with references and allusions to kidnapping, medical emergencies, and all sorts of other contemporary social crises. Mind, we're not talking adults here, but children. >I've heard these stories from abductees myself. They're not >exactly amusing. In one case, reported to me more or less out of >the blue, someone who wasn't an abductee was reading Budd >Hopkins's "Witnessed," one of the many abduction books with a >picture of the standard alien on the cover. This person's four >year-old granddaughter, if I'm remembering correctly, saw the >book in his house, and immediately went off on it. "He's bad! >He's bad! He's bad! the kid screamed, pointing at the alien. >"Why is he bad?" "He comes to my room at night and takes me >away." One is sorrily tempted to say, "So?" And follow that up with, "What's amusing got to do with it?" Clearly, without knowing what images and information have gone into any indivudual child, we are poorly prepared to address or objectively assess any images or information coming _out_ of said child, even more so when expressed as something dreamed or experienced during normal sleep time. >Skeptics, of course, will become variously horrified or derisive >reading all this. They'll be sure the kids have been prompted in >some way, or overheard discussions, or [fill in the standard >skeptical stuff]. And sometimes all that could be true. On the >other hand, it really won't do to approach abductions with the >certainty that it's all got to be nonsense, before you've done >any research. And if abductees' kids really are reporting this >stuff, and have _not_ been prompted in any way, then someone >really ought to look into it...which is all any responsible >abduction investigator ever does. Once a kid reports these >things, it's not unreasonable to ask "What did the monsters look >like?" or "What did the bad people do to you?" or "How did they >take you up to the sky" or "Why do you think this wasn't a >dream?" Yes, that's precisely the point, as far as children are concerned: "Sometimes that could all be true." And, yes, it _is_ unreasonable to follow up with questions that invite and/or promote extrapolation of an experience, especially a negative one. Do you really think that Budd Hopkins, Dave Jacobs or even John Mack should be interviewing children about anything, never mind the possibility of alien abductions? Sorry, Greg, but this is a no brainer. If a child is experiencing problems in this area, the last thing he or she needs is someone trying to interview them and/or extract additional information. The proposition is absurd on its face. What can Budd or Dave possibly hope to learn from an inarticulate child that they couldn't learn from an articulate adult? All they can do, by the very nature of the inquiry itself, is run the risk of influencing the child they are interviewing, superimposing their adult worldview on the relatively innocent. I cannot emphasize this strongly enough: there is nothing to be gained from interviewing a child that couldn't conceivably be gained from interviewing adults (whether their parents or not). They can add _nothing_ to the _existing_ equation, so why involve them on any level at all? What is there possibly to be gained? Absolutely nothing. >Isn't that what any parents would do, quite apart from >abductions, if their kids told them about a frightening >experience? Greg, Maybe you don't have any children of your own. But to answer your question, no, that is not what I would do. That is, if my kid told me something frightful had happened to him during the night, I would certainly not belabor him with more and more follow up questions, seeking ever more minute details about just exactly what it was that set him off. I would do exctly the opposite. Children are children. I'm sorry, but an abstract artist and an historian have no business, let alone a right, to be conducting follow up interviews with children about _anything_. This is wrong behavior on their part, pure and simple. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see it as such. And I don't care how personably honorable Hopkins and Jacobs are: _this is not their purview._ Short of all caps, can I stress this strongly enough? Unless you have some supercompelling reason for including childrens's comments in the investigation of UFO abductions, why not leave the poor babes alone? Ie., leave the children out of it. Period! I'm appalled and embarrassed to think that you would suggest otherwise. Awaiting a comment from Jerry Clark about any significant issue of the day, Dennis Stacy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 23 UpDate: New Area 51 Video Available From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 07:03:31 +0200 Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 16:02:09 -0400 Subject: UpDate: New Area 51 Video Available Forwarded from "alt.conspiracy.area51". Stig ** Subject: New Area 51 video available Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 22:08:31 GMT From: Joerg <webmaster@dreamlandresort.com> Organization: Dreamland Resort Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.area51 * We are very excited to let you all know that our Tikaboo Expedition 2000 video is now available. It includes new footage of Area 51 and interviews with several popular Area 51 researchers. The one-hour documentary shows the Las Vegas Janet terminal, the ET Highway, the Area 51 North Gate, Bald Mountain, the Black Mailbox, Groom Lake Road, the hidden Guard Shack, the truck convoy and hike up to Tikaboo Peak and the incredible view from the top. It includes many interviews with both new and senior Area 51 researchers, lots of background information and footage of never before filmed areas. For a detailed description and to order your copy online please follow the link on our start page at: http://www.dreamlandresort.com/ Joerg H. Arnu, Dreamland Resort Founder and Webmaster http://www.dreamlandresort.com/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 23 UpDate: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video - Matthews From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 04:08:34 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 16:05:21 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video - Matthews >Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 19:45:40 +0100 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >Subject: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 20:41:52 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:14:07 +0100 >>>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >>>Subject: Comment On Cheshire Video >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Hi, >Firstly, I don't want to get involved in a personal battle with >Tim, as this isn't the issue here. Nor is there any reason for >it. Dear All, True to form, a certain number of suspects are making up stories about the witness and videographer of the recent Cheshire Incident. The facts are these; 1 - Karl Woods is _not_ a friend or colleague of Eric Morris. 2 - They have met in the past on maybe two occasions over five years. 3 - Before returning to Nursing (in a Management position), Eric Morris used to work with Ufologist Rory Lushman in the Cinema trade. Lots of people work in the cinema trade. Karl Woods had an interest, three years ago, in holding a UFO-type event at the cinema he works at. 4 - This is the basis for the smear and deception. So, we await Randles'/Roberts apology! This smear job is being done so that eyes will be deflected away from other important issues. UFOIN is operating not from a position of enlightened objectivity but from one of entrenched and hostile skepticism whereby any case it does not "own" and control is to be debunked in order to give it more profile within Ufology. Onwards and upwards! Tim Matthews, Press Officer, British UFO Studies Centre.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 23 UpDate: Re: UFO Watchtower Gets Visit From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 02:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 16:29:18 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: UFO Watchtower Gets Visit Greetings list - From: http://insidedenver.com/news/0723ufol3.shtml UFO Watchtower gets visit from glowing light in the sky By Deborah Frazier Denver Rocky Mountain News Staff Writer July 23, 2000 HOOPER � When Judy Messoline opened her UFO Watchtower in the San Luis Valley in June, she never expected them to come. But they did come. A bronze, cigar-shaped light glowed, hovered and sped away late one night in late June, Messoline said. It was about 11 p.m., and Messoline was up on the watchtower with a few customers. "It was there and then it went fszkt across the sky and was gone," said Messoline, who moved to Hooper from Golden about five years ago. "At first I was hesitant to mention it, but the other people in the tower with me saw it too. "It scared one gal so much, she left." Despite the incident, Messoline isn't a believer � yet. "It does make you wonder," she said. Her longtime partner, Stan Becker, doesn't believe it was a UFO. He once had a large flying object with a bright glow hover over his car while he was driving across New Mexico. The experience made him a believer until he spotted the letters "USAF" on the underbelly of the jet. The UFO Watchtower, a 10-foot-high observation deck with a 50-person capacity atop a geodesic dome, opened on Memorial Day. Some days, only a couple of people stop by � for pop and chips. Other days, more than 100 people drop in to take pictures, tell Messoline stories about alien sightings and encounters, buy extraterrestial-theme gifts, camp overnight, share UFO pictures and relate abduction experiences. Most stay for only a few minutes, but there are usually a few who recline on air mattresses and scan the sky for hours well past the 10 p.m. closing time. "Everyone has a story," Messoline said. "The serious ones come in the evenings." Some even pay the $2 fee she charges to go up onto the tower. "We wanted to see if the tower has had any sightings because there have been a lot of stories about UFO sightings in this area," said Ryan Temple of Santa Fe, who stopped by for a look with his wife, Wendy. "I think they should mount a video camera up there and have it running all the time," Temple suggested, speaking in all seriousness. In business, the secret to success is location. Which is why the watchtower may be well-situated. In fact, the frying-pan-flat desert rangeland halfway between Salida and Alamosa, bounded by the La Garita and the Sangre de Cristo mountain ranges, may be the perfect location for the world's only UFO watchtower, according to an expert. Christopher O'Brien, who has researched and written about unearthly events in the valley and elsewhere for eight years, said Messoline picked the perfect place. "She has a front-row, orchestra seat for anomalous activities," said O'Brien, who lives in Crestone. He said many of the UFO reports he has investigated come from observers in the Hooper area. Sightings of UFOs in the area go back to the 1940s. The Mysterious Valley Forum, dedicated to research and education about unearthly events, is a few miles from the tower's door. Even conservative farmers say they have seen saucer-shape lights zooming across the sky. "They're kind of embarrassed about it, but they'll come in and tell me about what they've seen," Messoline said. Regardless of the location, O'Brien cautioned that counting on alien spacecraft is risky business. "The activity has almost stopped in the last three years," said O'Brien, who has written several books on mysterious phenomena. "So, I don't know that the tower is viable as a business." Messoline has never made an "alien sighting guaranteed" promise. "If people can come here and have a giggle, great," she said. "If they see something, wonderful. But if they don't, it's still an experience." However, there has been a surge of sightings in the last few months, O'Brien said. Hooper, a small, rural town that values family, work, church and school, isn't exactly a hotbed of cosmic cowboys. Fewer than 100 folks live in the tidy homes that surround town center of the Hooper Elementary School and a gas station. And a few of them wish they had thought of building a UFO watchtower first. Candace Knolan, who lives in Hooper and owns a jewelry store, said she never thought about aliens and UFOs until she moved to the San Luis Valley seven years ago and started seeing "a lot of interesting things in the sky." In early June, she went to the tower because a group from the Center for Extraterrestrial Intelligence was visiting. That night, she saw a circular object in the sky with red, white and teal lights respond to one of the observers who blinked a powerful flashlight � 250,000 candlepower. "One of the guys went 'blink blink' with the flashlight. The object blinked back twice," Knolan said. "The guy with the flashlight went 'blink blink' again and the thing moved across the sky and went 'blink blink' too." The double-blink exchange occurred three times before the light in the sky vanished, she said. "It blew me away," Knolan said. Despite these inspiring stories, aliens, haven't yet walked up the tower's steps to say hello. But if they do, Messoline is ready. She even has parking. A few hundred feet from the tower are two large craters sunk in the range. Messoline put up a guardrail and posted a convincing sign that declares: "UFO Parking Only" at one end. At the other end the sign reads, "UFO Handicapped Parking." So far, nothing and no one has landed in either parking spot. That's OK with Messoline. She never expected to see an unidentified flying object or a flying saucer or an alien. Messoline expected to have a business that paid at least as much as her job at a local convenience store. And she was looking forward to giggling a lot. She is giggling a lot, even when she says she hesitates to kill flies because they could be aliens. She, Becker and her grandson, Joshua, made a UFO float for the Alamosa Fourth of July parade that drew cheers and applause. "This has been a real kick," Messoline said. --- Best regards, - Blair Cummins ufoblair@hotmail.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 23 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Randles From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 11:50:16 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 16:32:37 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Randles >Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 19:40:57 -0400 >From: Peter The Duke of Mendoza Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >The Duke of Mendoza presents his compliments: >>Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 21:22:25 +0100 >>From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: Selling Files >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Also, can any anyone tell me where I might obtain a copy of >>Gotlib's "Bulletin of Anomalous Phenomena". >According to a post that I can't find (sorry) it seems to be, or >is about to be, available on CD. Which is good news. Perhaps >Jerome will now read it, and give it a mention in a future >edition of his admirable encyclopedia. >best wishes >Peoplesdome D. Milestone >Bespoke Lampoonist Hi, It _is_ now available on CD and well worth having. The CD covers all five years(l990 - 4) of this indispensable contribution to the abduction debate - which IMO no commentator should be without. I agree with Peter on the significance of this work and it has certainly featured in several of my discussions of the abduction mystery. Although - in Jerry's defence - more than once some references to David and the BAE were axed by my editors on grounds other than my personal choice. For instance in my recent 'Complete Book of Abductions' I had to lose a third of the text at proof stage owing to the very real concerns about falling UFO book sales in the UK . Sadly, some references to David were cut on the basis that the BAE was no longer available for readers to access and at that time (sadly) I was not aware it was coming out as a CD. But I'll certainly be aware of that in future. BTW David, who is still interested in Ufology although sadly no longer producing his excellent bulletin, has for some years (and still is) one of the US readers of my 'internal bulletin' Northern UFO News. As stated in an earlier post today an address was recently on this list. If you are seriously interested in the scientific background to abductions do not hesitate to get hold of this BAE CD. Best wishes, Jenny Randles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 23 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 10:29:46 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 16:36:47 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Hammond >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:34:13 -0400 >>Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:13:02 -0400 >>Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Hammond >Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 21:08:42 -0400 >From: The Duke of Mendoza - Peter Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >With the Duke of Mendoza's compliments, and acknowledgement of >the belatedness of this reply: >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:34:13 -0400 >>Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:13:02 -0400 >>Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Hammond >>>Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 20:25:05 -0400 >>>From: Peter Brookesmith, Duke of Mendoza ><DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >>>Subject: Selling Files >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >><snip> >>>Anonymity generates its own difficulties -- for example: how >>>does investigator B confirm, check, or burrow into the details >>>of investigator A's case if he can't contact the subject >>>directly, or if he doesn't have an identity around which to >>>investigate a background? >>The above is an interesting point and one I never really >>considered. Would we have researchers going door-to-door like >>FBI Agents doing a background check? The thought of this makes >>me, and I'm sure every abductee, shiver. I really don't want my >>92 year old next door neighbor to think of me as a nut who >>thinks she sees Aliens! >For a start, your neighbor may not think of you in any such >terms! But I was really thinking of basic fact checking, which >ought not to involve blabbing about whom one's enquiring or why. <snip> If Howard can produce this stuff spontaneously, how can >anyone (and I include you) _not_ question the reality of the >abduction experience or memory? >>For myself, I welcome an open debate on this. It's possible to >>disagree on a subject and get you're point across while >>remaining a respectful lady or gentleman. Everyone would learn >>from a debate of this nature, I think. Well, you can see I'm >>pretty naive, but one can always hope, right? >Yeah, one can hope. Attempts have been made from time to time on >this very List. They fell apart into entrenched positions and >acrimonious allegations pretty quickly. The discussion, if >that's the word, over "researching" children's abduction stories >seems to be teetering on the edge of that already. Such is >ufology; it's part of its charm. Given the variety -- ranging >from startling, bizarre and unpredictable to irremediably and >admirably conservative (guffaw) -- views represented even by the >minority of subscribers who post to this List (some of whom seem >to have nothing else to do), I doubt this is the place to make >much progress. >So that's a challenge and a provocation. Dear Peter: At the cost of aggravating even more adbuctee's than last week, I believe in the validity of my own memories, but, (and her we go!) I have often questioned everything about this phenomena. There is a reason why I no longer do, which is not something I am comfortable talking about on a Public List. What I will say is that I have a lifelong history of strange incidences which seem to fit into what's known as "Abduction" I have been hypnotised on one occassion, learning a bit more about the incident I wanted to get come sort of 'closure" on. This did not occur, and I felt that, for myself anyway, I would rather 'let sleeping dogs lie.' If anything like what I already remembered, coupled with what I learned did happen, and it seems likely that it did. I really couldn't see how I could continue with my normal life as a Mother, housewife and bookkeeper for my Hubbies business. I didn't want to have a whole host of strange new memories rolling around, waiting for a quiet moment to jump up and yell boo!! I was first abducted around the age of 3. I was sitting on our stoop, waiting for my Dad to get off the train. An older girl who lived several houses away came up to me and told me she was taking me to the park. When I told her I couldn't, my Mom said NOT to leave the stoop, she said she spoke to Mom and she said it was OK. So, off I went. I remember nothing else until I found myself, standing in a deserted park, alone, watching a police car pull up with my Dad in it. When I told them what happened they got the litle girl who took me and her Mom over. Her Mom said, not only did her daughter NOT take me, but she had not left the house all day! Well, after the police left, Dad kept questioning me, and I kept giving the same story, including I didn't really know where I was until he pulled up. He became so enraged that I would not stop "lying" that he held me up by one arm and beat me to the point where I actually had an 'out of body experience". I was across the room watching that "bad" man hurt that little girl. My mother was screaming, the neighborlady was screaming, they were trying to pull me away from him! A real scene. One which I remember every detail of. But I still was unable to change my story. Now, what young child, after experiencing that is going to go back for more? Thing is, this happened to me over and over throughout my childhood! At some point wouldn't prudence tell a kid that this isn't so much fun and stop doing it? Of course it would. For me, however, there doesn't seem to have been a choice. As I hit my teens is when They started to take me at night. This is when I started ripping down my bedroom curtains to 'beat Them back" with. Running through the house, knocking over very heavy pieces of furniture to stop Them, then, going outside and running down the street as fast as I could because "They" were back and I didn't want Them to take me. None of this was 'fun', it wasn't for attention, I was so sleep deprived by this time in my life I regularly fell asleep in school. In short I have had 'Awake" abductions, some I remember the beginning of with some flashes of what happened. I've had 'asleep" abductions, where I also remember some flashes. For me, They seem to like to take me out of the kitchen! Could it be my cooking? As to your friend Howard, I notice you cannot even entertain the notion that maybe he IS an abductee :) You are not open minded about this at all, or you would have let that stand as one of the issues that needed to be looked into. Instead, you view it as something that has to "untied", cured and gotten rid of. I and all abductees should be open minded about you're theories and ideas, yet you don't extend the same courtesy to us. You wonder how so many events are so similar (abductions) could it possibly be that we are all being taken to roughly the same place and undergoing much the same treatment? Or can't you even consider that? Why are you unable to even think that this might be actualy happening? Just because you, or some other skeptic says it isn't does'nt make it so! Thanks for the pleasure of an actual give and take debate, Peter. It's been a breath of fresh air! Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 23 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Easton From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 15:38:07 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 16:39:30 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Easton Regarding: >Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:37:06 +0100 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >Subject: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: UFO UpDates <updates@sympatico.ca> I wrote: >An article entitled 'Close Encounters With UFOs?', by Margaret >Kirk, was published in 'The Times' (this seems to be an American >magazine and not the London based newspaper) just prior to the >release of David Jacobs' book 'Secret Lives'. >The article states, "Jacobs, with Budd Hopkins, an artist and >author of two books on UFO abductions, has recently received a >200,000 dollar private grant - Jacobs will not reveal the donor >- to conduct in-depth research on accounts of abduction by >aliens. (Results of their first poll, conducted by the Roper >organization and released last week, are that one in every 50 >adult Americans claims a UFO abduction experience)". >Was the amount of this grant, its specific purpose and the >benefactor's identity ever _publicly_ confirmed? I'm grateful to all those who responded and especially for the following: >Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:15:04 -0400 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >The money came from Robert Bigelow, and was given so Budd and >Dave (along with sociologist Ron Westrum) could commission the >Roper organization to conduct a nationwide poll in the United >States. The poll was designed to determine how many Americans >had had experiences that Budd and Dave think indicate possible >abductions. >The results of the poll are highly controversial, and I won't >unearth once again the arguments on either side. As for the >$200,000 amount, I've never heard it mentioned before, but the >sum seems entirely reasonable for one of America's best known >polling firms to conduct a large-scale survey. I presumed this must be connected to the Roper poll. Margaret Kirk's article was amongst the UFO related clippings and articles mentioned in my last newsletter, most of which are now available on line, see: http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/v13.txt As noted, I was curious what might have been publicly confirmed subsequent to this article. The only other monetary mention it makes is that (at the time of writing), John Mack "has a 200,000 dollar contract from Scribner to write his own book about abductions". I understand that Jenny Randles, David Clarke and Andy Roberts received a similar advance for 'The UFOs That Never Were'. At which point, their alarm clocks went off. Kirk tells the story of Karen Morgan who, "began experiencing a profound anxiety as an adult, related to a recurring dream of having a strange being with big eyes, in her bedroom". According to Kirk, Morgan contacted David Jacobs and subsequently underwent 26 hypnotic regressions, which "unearthed a lifetime of alien abductions". Kirk writes, "'At first', she says, 'I thought about it all the time. I was so afraid to go to sleep that I would go for months without being able to sleep'. 'And then, I don't know how to describe this, but after six months the anxiety receded. I can't prove that this is happening to me, but I really have no choice but to believe it. I had to integrate it into my life'." Is it any wonder that someone who has experienced a recurring dream about monsters and in an attempt to 'unlock the truth', is then subjected to being 'hypnotised' an astonishing 26 times by an 'alien abduction researcher', plus sleep deprived for months, would end up having to accept for some peace of mind that the monsters or aliens must be real? Maybe Kirk's article is inaccurate, or this is an exceptionally 'poor example' of how scientific, 'abductions' research truly is. However, any research which relies on hypnosis can never of course be remotely scientific and always capable of being a significant catalyst to inflict the permanent alteration of a subject's memory or perceptions. Anyway, this is an aside and merely an observation about an issue I do _not_ intend spending time discussing. Outwith any debate about the files John Carpenter may have sold, I would have though it likely that Bigelow would also have requested copies of research material from Jacobs, Hopkins and others. Bigelow's interest in the subject is already demonstrated by connections to Jacobs and Hopkins research, via the Roper Poll sponsorship. If anyone's interested in Carpenter's perspective on people who are hypnotised and recount tales of being selected for experimentation by ETs, there's an insightful, online Q&A session which was hosted by the United Kingdom UFO Network and a transcript can be read at: http://www.ukufonw.co.uk/irc-carpenter.htm I didn't realise that Carpenter is such an abject and seemingly uncritical 'believer', although I was pleased to note he is relatively supportive of Dr. Boylan. It's so unfair when the good Dr B. is singled out and Hopkins, Mack, Jacobs, Leihr, Simms et al. are comparatively revered. Yes, I know Boylan highly publicised that not terribly credible story of the woman zapped out of her window over the Brooklyn Bridge and this was supposed to champion the case for 'alien abductions' actually happening [although I'm sure the publishers vehemently protested that, whilst a nice little earner for all involved, this might not be a 'true' story in any way]. Sorry.. not Boylan, Mack, no, Hopkins, wasn't it? I get so confused - they all sound the same Meantime, I regret having to announce that my forthcoming book, "The Alien Abductions Which Never Were" is being pulled by my publishers. Something about having to come up with a more attention-grabbing and marketable product than that, even if you don't believe a word of it. Perhaps I should speak to Nick Pope's agent. James Easton. E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk www.ufoworld.co.uk PS: I trust that any cynicism which might be expressed is taken with the intended good humour. This applies to all of my UpDates posts!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 23 UpDate: Spectacular UFO Taped Over Caracas, Venezuela From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 10:58:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 16:41:29 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Spectacular UFO Taped Over Caracas, Venezuela Dear Friends, This event occurred last night and is a direct report from Venezuelan researcher Martha Rosenthal. ========================== DATE: Saturday, July 22, 2000, 7:13:54 P.M. Spectacular Sighting Over Northeastern Caracas Being Videoed The time is now 19:05 and an object of considerable size, nearly transparent (given the volume of light it is emitting) has been filmed since 18:28. It appears silvery in color, with a wide upper dome and a fin on its lower hull shaped like an inverted cone (like the tongue of a shoe). A compass reading places it between 300 and 305 degrees, located to the left of Simon Bolivar University but above Fuerte Tiuna, using the clouds as a screen, whose luminosity is hard to observe without wearing dark glasses. It is hovering with an almost imperceptible balancing motion, but one would say it is completely motionless. More information to come. =========================== Translation (c) 2000. Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU). Special Thanks to Martha Rosenthal.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 23 UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Hart From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 10:37:00 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 16:43:50 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Hart >Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 15:32:14 -0400 >From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Hi Gary, >>The malpractice lawsuit process was started in May of '97, I >>believe, and the KC lawyers group took statements from the dozen >>abductees that signed on. >This is a different case against Carpenter which ended up >fizzling? Ann and list, It is the same. One reason why this has been keep quiet for so long was because of the legal actions that were being attempted against John. Malpractice (started May '97), then a State Attorney General's Office investigation. The first process stopped in Jan. '99 as the lawyers didn't want to spend more of their resources on it; the second in the fall of '99 because of the passage of the statute of limitations. The Medical Licensing Board has wanted to wait until the outcome of any resulting criminal trial before resuming any investigation on their part. John has already been investigated once by the board in April through June '97 for unethical contact with a former psychiatric patient but John at that time convinced Elizabeth, his soon to be ex-wife, that he would halt ongoing divorce proceedings if she lied to them to stop the investigation and she did. The Medical Board is not doing anything now until a complaint is resubmitted. We are considering this. It has taken a long time to determine whether anything legally would work. Only twenty or so people on the list knew of the file sale, only twelve signed on to the case because many of these people_have_lost jobs, marriages or have medical professional, educational or other high trust-level jobs which they want none of this to affect. >I'll assume these 12 are included in the 140 cases that >Carpenter sold and that they were part of the 20 that already >knew about the sale. Yes, We don't even know ourselves all the people on the list and have not decided if or how to proceed in contacting them as this process itself causes a huge trauma to be generated. I was recently notified of someone, a university professor, who was overcome by a mixture of rage and tears at hearing of his own connection with the list. The last I heard he was heading over to Jonh's house to confront him and we all were concerned there might be a physical altercation. >Again with only 20 of those 140 indivuals being aware that their >files had been sold to Bigelow? Yes. Need I say this is all new and emotional territory we would have all liked to never see. We take everything one day at a time. Should everyone be notified? We don't even know the answer to_this_ question as the problems this generates have never been dealt with before on such a large scale. What do all of you think? Gary Hart Call: Bigelow 702-456-1606
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 23 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 12:12:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 16:45:51 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:48:03 -0500 >From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Tim, I value your thoughtful comments. I admire you; you're one of the people on this list who never trivializes anything. But I wonder if you're not going too far with the following: >I think we can agree that people like Budd are probably extra >careful when/if dealing with children, and the effects of that >are debatable, but the larger problem as I see it, is that not >everyone IS that extra careful. I have been at UFO conferences >and seen folks, fresh out of a mail-order hypnotherapy course, >offering to 'regress' anyone who wants to 'remember their >experiences' (no exaggeration). Is it a big leap to imagine >these self-styled investigators interviewing kids, or even >hypnotizing them? My point is merely that this, just as is the >case with hypnosis on possible adult experiencers, sets a >horrible precedent when done by an 'abduction researcher,'which >is a title anyone can call themselves on a whim. >"If 'UFO Abduction Author X' can interview children or hypnotize >folks, and he has no formal training, then why can't I? Besides, >the skeptics are just trying to slam us with all this talk of >training and careful methodology. I'm a nice guy, that's all >that matters." Taking this logic a little further, should we frown at parapsychology research, because there's a gypsy fortuneteller in a storefront just a block away from me? I think what you're saying is something different -- that the situation in ufology is out of control, and that irresponsible people who deal with abduction were in some unintended way spawned by Budd et al. Certainly Budd and Dave Jacobs and later John Mack opened a door that all kinds of unfortunate types have eagerly hurried through. But on the other hand, doesn't the same logic apply in reverse? Because gypsy fortunetellers are so common, we need parapsychology research all the more, to tell us what's reliable and what isn't. The abduction world may be out of control in some ways, but doesn't that mean we need responsible investigation all the more? (I wish we all knew more about what's really going on, by the way. How many "abduction investigators" are there? How many support groups? What are their methods? What harm do they do? Here the research by Kevin Randle, Russ Estes, and William Cone would be very helpful, since they seem to have surveyed a wider range of abduction stuff than we usually hear about. Too bad they didn't give many details in their book about what they found.) >I think everyone should be horrified by this, regardless of >whether you think the enemy of the children are the 'aliens' or >the 'investigators.' This is bad news for the kids who didn't >ask to be involved in this mess, any way you look at it. >We are both concerned with making sure children do not suffer >negative consequences from any of this (any more than they have >to at least, if they are really having their own experiences), I >am merely saying we can not be too careful, and that we should >err on the side of extreme caution, even if it slows down >research. Tim, I respect what you're saying, but to me it's a bit theoretical. In practice, what tends to happen, in situations I've known about, is something like this. People who happen to be parents start working with someone like Budd. They don't think about their children being abducted, and Budd certainly doesn't talk to them about it. And they don't talk about abductions in front of their children. Then one day their child comes to them with what sounds like an abduction story. They're freaked! Naturally they ask Budd about it. What would you expect them do to? Assuming they believe their abductions are real, they're anxious -- to say the least -- to know if the child is being abducted, too. They don't have a clue, in many cases, how to talk to a child about this. Why would anyone expect them to? They hardly know how to talk about their own experiences, and, if they tried to talk to their child, their anxiety might well get in the way of doing anything useful, either in finding out what's really going on, or in easing the child's own fears. So it might actually be in the child's best interest to talk to a responsible abduction investigator. About a year ago, Budd had an article in the IF newsletter about how to talk to children about abductions. I'll see if I can post it here. One thing missing from this discussion is anything much from people who've actually dealt with this problem. Besides...what if abductions are real? (A possibility, by the way, that I think is often neglected in abduction debates.) Then the children really do need help, and an abduction investigator might be the only one who currently can either provide it, or work closely with parents to help them do so. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 23 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 12:22:11 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 16:48:55 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 23:46:09 -0500 (CDT) >From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow >To: updates@sympatico.ca (UFO UpDates - Toronto) >I've read enough here and there to >>know this is a very complex issue. In no way can it be >>adequately dealt with by telling a couple of personal anecdotes. >True. It cannot be adequately dealt with in a forum such as >Updates, either. Problems with children's testimonies in abuse >cases are very serious and complex issues. You're right, this >isn't news, and I am simply adding a cautionary voice into the >fray. I also didn't point out that my kids have excellent >memories when it comes to whether or not I promised them a treat >after supper, and each can recite the litany of Pokemon rather >well. Very few subjects can be treated in adequate depth on UpDates. But we've gone into rich detail about many things in the real world, from digital audio (remember that long thread about alleged 384-bit recordings by aliens?) to military procedures. A few more words about children's reliability wouldn't have hurt. >All I did by citing Mack's comment and giving my own experience >with kids' memories is to note that kids' memries, like adult >memories, are not infallible and are subject to suggestion. I've >read stuff by Budd and others, too. But I'm justifiably leery of >such cases. I'm hardly surprised to know that you've read a lot about abductions, since you wrote a book on the subject, and you're a serious guy. But from your post, we'd never have known. >>Which leaves the larger subject of children's abductions >>almost entirely untouched. >I think others who responded to this thread touched it quite >well. I'm only encouraging caution. Geez, who do you think I am, >Kevin Randle? <shudder> In this post, you trivialized the subject, by fighting a straw man, and leaving out most of the relevant detail. In doing so, you showed your bias, which in itself is completely fair. You can take any side you like. But you should represent opposing views fairly. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 23 UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 15:43:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 16:50:47 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - >Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 22:01:31 -0400 >From: The Duke Peter of Mendoza Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >The Duke of Mendoza presents his compliments to the List: >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 03:15:38 -0400 >>Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:38:47 -0400 >>Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Velez >John complained about the derisive terms in which I referred to >Linda Napolitano (is that straightforward enough for everyone?), >viz "Linda Cortibalone", the "Cortaweenie case" and >"Cortaloone's son", and went on to say: >>Ok Peter, so you try to 'slip one past the goalie' and use your >>response to Liz to play on an old saw of yours, Hopkins/Cortile, >>which is fine (if you can get away with it!) :) That's ok Peter, >>you usually have something of value to contribute. But then you >>soil yourself by ragging on Linda Cortile, an abductee, with >>complete disrespect and disregard. >The Cortile/Napolitano case is more than an old saw of mine, >it's a sore on the proverbial ass of ufology. It's a reasonable >test case. If you think there's anything to it, having read the >book "Witnessed", you are defective in either knowledge or >intelligence. No shame in not being able to say at once that >molluscs do not eat rocks; I had to do some double-taking on >that one myself. But, my dear, the logic -- and the lack of >taste! Oh Mendoza, "every time I try to get out, they drag me back in!" <LOL> I'm 'supposed to be' on hiatus but I had to pop back in for a moment to respond to your post. Peter, you're talking to the wrong guy! a. Nothing "defective" in either my knowledge of this subject or my own native intelligence. Far as I can tell I'm (currently) running on all 8 cylinders Pedro. Not a sputter, clack, or misfire among them. :) b. The 'sore' is your own "ass" over the Cortile case and most especially Budd Hopkins. I have watched you analyze and discuss other researchers with detached intelligence and bring up many valid points and questions regarding them. For some reason when it is Hopkins, your emotions take over and it is clear to all that you have a serious 'hard on' for him. That's ok too Peter, we all encounter people that just 'rub us the wrong way.' But when you allow it to bring you to a froth (as Hopkins does with you) it can rapidly deteriorate into what we see coming from you for example, (the name calling with Linda) when the topic is Hopkin's Cortile case. Or _any_ Hopkins case I would imagine. (Which includes me!) When you call him a phoney and a liar you call me one too Peter. When you publicly ridicule Linda and call her a liar and a cheat you also splatter that paint on me and every other abductee. Like I said, you are entitled to your views and oppinions, but when you begin to feed the already entrenched attitude of derision and ridicule towards abductees I am forced to draw a line in the sand. Peter I don't care if you think I'm crazy, lying, hallucinating, or that my brain is misfiring. None of that creates any problems for me. But when you start calling me (or Linda or Budd) a liar or a cheater/hoaxer in public, you damn well better be prepared to substantiate it. Would you please be so kind as to offer _one shred_ of evidence that Budd or Linda have perpetrated an intentional hoax. That they purposely invented a lie and that the case is a manufactured piece of fiction that was intended to (intentionally) fool the public. If you cannot provide it, would you please refrain from calling them and, (by carom shot) me, liars, cheats and phonies in public. Yes Peter, the onus _is_ on Budd and other researchers to _prove_ that what they are reporting is 'actual' and not anecdotal. But that doesn't give you (or anyone else) the right to trample the character and veracity of the witnesses because what they are reporting seems incomprehensible (and therefore impossible) to you personally. "Some" folks consider these same people that you label as hoaxers and elaborate liars as "brave" and "courageous" for coming forward and reporting. Point of view I suppose. c. The ridiculing and name calling (on both sides) has to stop. It has gotten to the point where abductees in particular are viewed as, and spoken of as if they were less than human. The reason I jumped on you with both feet was _solely_ because of the name calling. Your views on the Cortile case and Budd Hopkins are your own and you are surely entitled to them and to air them on this list. Lord knows I do. But I'm drawing a line in the sand when it comes to 'goofing on' abductees. The accumulated results of all the ridicule and derision is contained in Dr. Alexander's post to me. As one member of the list so obsevantly pointed out: and I'm paraphrasing, To him, (Dr. Alexander) abductees are beneath consideration. He talks about their personal rights, reports, and files, in the same light as a "photographer passing along photo's" that he/she has taken. Balls! If we don't nip it in the bud that attitude can not only gain greater foothold in the minds of many, but lead to much worse violations against abductees in the future. Don't take it personally mon ami, I would have fragged _anyone_ who did the same thing. This time, it happened to be you. :) At least I didn't treat you the way you treated Linda by refering to you as; "The effemenate son of a window dresser" or some such equally derogatory remark. <LOL> >I don't think Linda C-N is an abductee. Her conduct a propos her >"case" and demeanor since (see ancient posts to this List circa >late 1997) leave me entirely unimpressed. I think she is a fake, >but I will concede that her special form of hokum may well >include a huge wodge of self-delusion. She has done nothing to >earn my respect (especially with regard to her son, as >previously mentioned -- but of course that's just "moral >grandstanding"). Anyone could say a lot worse about her than >giving her a few flip names. I give myself enough, after all, >besides. Your personal oppinion of her or your own humble self effacing comments do _not_ entitle you to publicly ridicule her or anybody else. Period. Peter, you have a mastery of the language that few attain in a lifetime. The derision and the ridicule are all the more intense and biting when it comes from someone with your 'word skills' intellectual capacity and writing ability. Especially so. Because you possess those skills/talents you should go out of your way to make sure that you are not using those 'gifts' to hurt or harm others in any way. (Superhero Rule #1 is: don't use your powers for evil! <LOL>) You can make your points and state your arguements without verbally wiping the soles of your boots on the witnesses/ subjects of the cases under discussion. Not unreasonable I think. >However I do apologize for having unintentionally contributed to >outbursts of sentimentality from Dennis Stacy and Jerry Clark. That was almost funny to see! Like Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield hugging! <LMAO> >I'm told Linda is an awfully nice person in the flesh, too. She really is Peter. We've been friends for years now and Linda is just a sweet, simple person. A real "Brooklyn girl." Tough as nails on the outside, soft as down on the inside. Peter, from the bottom of my heart _I can assure you_ that Linda does not have the "guile" to invent, engineer, or perpetrate a "hoax/lie" of this magnitude if that's what it is. It's all just way too grand/elaborate for her to come up with and execute. Believe me. >"We disagree over >nearly everything," said Satan in an interview last night, "but >that Jesus is really just one of the lads. I've never known him >miss his round in the Skunk & Cuspidor" - <LOL>Totally unrelated but: In an American animated feature (South Park) there is a scene where Satan and his lover (Saddam Hussein) are in bed, and Satan is asking Saddam; "Why must you always love me from behind?!" <LOL> Same question abductees find themselves asking skeptics! <LMAO> - other than the >recognition that John's admonition was as one friend to another. >And if that wasn't apparent from his post, I could become a >trifle glum. So would I. <G> Warm regards, John Velez, as of 'now, now', I'm back on hiatus for a few weeks! :)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 23 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 15:31:35 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 16:55:55 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Clark >Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 00:20:18 -0500 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:27:21 -0700 >>From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.coAbductee Files/Our Childrenm> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Dennis, >As much, in other words, as I would like to actively address all >the recently raised issues, life has made other plans (I won't >bore you with the details), and my time is severely limited. >That said, a few quick comments, which, paltry as they are, are >nonetheless more than J. Clark seems able to muster. Is anyone >else besides me surprised by his conspicuous silence on the >subject? Just curious. What subject? I appreciate your fascination with my opinions -- which is more than I have for them -- and my "conspicuous" silence about whatever you think I ought to be shouting about. But right now I am busy as hell trying to make a living -- you know, doing writing that I actually get paid to do. Sorry there's nothing more sinister than that. Still, thanks for holding your breath in anticipation for the word from Olympus. You can breathe again now. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 24 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Jones From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 16:40:55 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:19:04 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Jones >Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 19:40:57 -0400 >From: Peter The Duke of Mendoza Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >The Duke of Mendoza presents his compliments: Good Sunday afternoon to you Peter. >>Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 21:22:25 +0100 >>From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: Selling Files >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Can anyone tell me if Jerome Clarke actually answered Peter >>'God's Gift To Satire' Brookesmith's question about the lack of >>an entry for Gotlib? >Yes, I can, and the answer is No. I kinda thought as much. I have read with interest Dennis's answer (and sundry comments). And this led me to wonder something that I have sometimes wondered before, what is so peculiar about this List. (No offence intended Errol) The reason I say this is simple. Whenever anyone asks a straight forward question I.E. What did you have for breakfast this morning? A straightforward answer is almost never given I.E. Why? What's it got to do with you if I had Cornflakes or Bacon and eggs? Am I the only one who has noticed this? >You may recall that Jerome regarded my comment on the absence of >any mention of Gotlib or BAE as a "pointless swipe" at his >Encyclopedia. Which it wasn't. It was an echo of Chris "Smiley >In Particular" Rutkowski's note that Gotlib and BAE had (and has >been, and is) systematically ignored by most commentators on >abductions. Jerome's "ignorance", in a work that is in so many >other ways so comprehensive, struck me as the most egregious >example of this. When I had less than a straightforward answer >as to why, naturally my inclination was to persist in pestering. As a friend of Chris' I am sometimes in amusement over your comments over his reserved approach. Perhaps your satirical/amusing approach is counter parted by Chris's sombre thoughtful answers and visa versa. Perhaps one of life's little mysteries is why opposites attract <g>. As for your pestering, could I suggest an alternative approach? Try asking the question again whilst explaining that you really are interested in an answer, as I certainly am. >Jerome didn't answer the San Antonio Sasquatch's like query >either, considerably less satirical than mine though it was. So >I would tend to conclude that it's not just pique on Jerome's >part at my mocking his notorious amour-propre that generates his >evasiveness. Dennis offered some reasonable excuses he could >latch on to, after all, but got a laconic (and perhaps to some >eyes, rude) "Whatever" for a reply. Yes, a non-answer if you ask little ole moi. >I, in contrast, was advised to get a life, which I tend to >regard as an example of Jerome, in common with a number of >modern philosophers, offering helpful advice to people who are >happier than he is. Thus illustrating to those of discernment >and taste his qualifications for the deliberately pointed >soubriquet of Boy Bishop. Your reputation does you little justice. I'm very much certain that you "have a life" as you mentioned relocating to a new house. Surely you must be alive to want to relocate to a new abode? >We also had the patently absurd assertion that the Clark MEL >stood or fell on its own. As if Jerome had had nothing to do >with it whatever. Even a _post_-modern philosopher should be >able to see through that bit of arm-waving. Speaking of arm waving. Are you as amused as I with this almost constant "rebirth" of British ufology? It makes a most pleasant change to see that at least some of the UK's resident researchers remain as constant as you O Duke of Satirically resplendent response. >>Also, can any anyone tell me where I might obtain a copy of >>Gotlib's "Bulletin of Anomalous Phenomena". >According to a post that I can't find (sorry) it seems to be, or >is about to be, available on CD. Which is good news. Perhaps >Jerome will now read it, and give it a mention in a future >edition of his admirable encyclopedia. As I mentioned in my reply to Dennis's post, SMiles emailed me with the details, much gracias senior Lewis. >best wishes >Peoplesdome D. Milestone >Bespoke Lampoonist Most cordially Not Quite Captain, Sensible Sean I'm no one important Jones
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 24 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Jones From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 16:08:33 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:20:36 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Jones >Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 19:26:14 -0500 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Selling Files - Jones >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Good afternoon Dennis >>Evenin' all >>Can anyone tell me if Jerome Clarke actually answered Peter >>'God's Gift To Satire' Brookesmith's question about the lack of >>an entry for Gotlib? >Uh, not exactly. What he did say, ultimately, was that the UFO >encyclopedia stood or fell on its own, and its hard to argue >with that. Writers, editors and publishers are all forced to >make hard choices, so it doesn't necessarily bother me that >Gotlib didn't get (which is different from warrant) his own >biographical entry. I was surprised, though, to see that he and >his newsletter weren't mentioned at all, if we are to believe >the encyclopedia's index. (And, remember, mistakes can be made >here, too.) I kinda understand his argument, however a simple explanation of why Gotlib got overlooked would not have gone amiss. I'm sure there is a valid reason, could well be "Gosh, damn, I plain forgot" for all anyone knows. >>Also, can any anyone tell me where I might obtain a copy of >>Gotlib's "Bulletin of Anomalous Phenomena". >If you had been assiduously following this thread, you would >have noticed that someone posted a URL for same, which I don't >have the time to go back and look up for you. Many thanks for pointing this out, SMiles Lewis kindly posted an email to me with the article and a contact email address. >Try a web search for David Gotlib. Failing that, try the >Bulletin of Anomalous Experience (I believe, not Anomalous >Phenomena, as you have it). I actually did a cut-an-paste jobbie from one of Peter's post's, so I'll have to pass the blame for that one onto him I'm afraid. >And that's Jerome Clark, not Clarke. I don't think that's the first time I've done that either. Probably because I have a few ClarkE friends I automatically put an E on the end of Clark. >See how easy it is to overlook a detail or two here and there? And its minor details that trip the most experienced up isn't it <g>. No slur or insult intended. >Dennis Stacy -- In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible. Sean Jones http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 24 UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Mulvey From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 17:11:39 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:22:48 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Mulvey >Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 00:34:17 -0400 (EDT) >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 02:19:08 -0400 >>From: John Velez<jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>I mentioned in my last post that I had a call in to Budd >>inquiring about John Carpenters remark that Budd has supplied >>him with "cases." Following is Budd's response. As you will see, >>Budd misinterpreted my original question. He thinks I inquired >>if he ever "referred" anyone to John C. which is not what I was >>asking. My response to Budd follows his e-mail to me. <snip> >>My question was not whether you ever referred "abductees" to >>John. My question related to a statement that John made on the >>CompuServe UFO Forum about you having supplied him with abductee >>-cases.- The quote from the posting is as follows: >>Allegedly with his work with the MUFON abduction transcription >>project he presumably would have had full access to MUFON >>abductee files (besides his own), not to mention copies of files >>that other researchers may have sent him. For example in the >>Alien Zoo interview he is alleged to have made the claim that >>Budd Hopkins has sent "cases". >This was from my original post on UpDates. I see it made it to >the compuserve UFO forum. Out of curiousity did the entire post >make it, or only this excerpt. Hi Robert, I just went into CS's UFO Forum and searched. I find no message quoting you. Myself and another staffer have been posting entire UpDates messages that are applicable to this issue [permission to post since 1997] but I don't see anything posted from you. The entire posts that are in UFO have either been from me or John Velez. Your response to John Velez has not been posted to my knowledge. I made reference to The Alien Zoo article in my post entitled "Our Children" which I posted in both areas. If we've missed something please let me know, but I just had another staff member look through all those messages and we can't find it. Thanks, Ann
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 24 UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 16:14:27 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:24:25 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - >Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 15:43:35 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 22:01:31 -0400 >>From: The Duke Peter of Mendoza Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>However I do apologize for having unintentionally contributed to >>outbursts of sentimentality from Dennis Stacy and Jerry Clark. >That was almost funny to see! Like Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield >hugging! <LMAO> And let me here apologize for having unintentionally contributed to outbursts of any kind from Brookesmith. And I'm sorry that you feel the need to respond to them, John. You must have more time on your hands than I do. You're only encouraging the guy, and that does none of us any good. Not at all funny to see, I'm afraid. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 24 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 17:33:03 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:28:37 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Hammond >Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 00:20:18 -0500 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>> >>Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:27:21 -0700 >>From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.coAbductee Files/Our Childrenm> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> ><snip> >>Children have often been involved in abduction work. It may come >>as a surprise to James [Easton] and perhaps to others, but children of >>abductees routinely -- and entirely on their own -- report what >>sound like abduction experiences. Or so many abductees have >>said. >Greg, List, >These are exciting times on UFO UpDates, with many questions of >true importance and implication being addressed almost by the >hour. Unfortunately, I find myself more than usually wrapped up >in John Lennon's observation that life is what happens while >you're making other plans. >I cannot emphasize this strongly enough: there is nothing to be >gained from interviewing a child that couldn't conceivably be >gained from interviewing adults (whether their parents or not). >They can add _nothing_ to the _existing_ equation, so why >involve them on any level at all? What is there possibly to be >gained? Absolutely nothing. >Children are children. I'm sorry, but an abstract artist and an >historian have no business, let alone a right, to be conducting >follow up interviews with children about _anything_. This is >wrong behavior on their part, pure and simple. >You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see it as such. And I >don't care how personably honorable Hopkins and Jacobs are: >_this is not their purview._ >Short of all caps, can I stress this strongly enough? >Unless you have some supercompelling reason for including >childrens's comments in the investigation of UFO abductions, why >not leave the poor babes alone? Dennis Gee, I hate to keep agreeing with all these skeptics, but, when you're right you're right. As an abductee I think I have the right to add my comments, as Greg's are not the only one's that we all share in. Very young children should be left out of Abduction as much as is humanly possible. Unless and until the child is having negative symptoms, I think it should be treated as any other nightmare. If, as in the case of the child I described, there are so many negative consequences that the child's health is suffering then steps need to be taken. Still, IMHO, without making abduction the center of the treatment. Reinforcing the negative images is only going to cause deeper trauma. And at no time should anyone but an M.D. be dealing with the child, in any way, about any aspect of it. I am excluding Dr. Mack here as abduction is his primary focus. I am a mother. I beleive my son _may_ have been abducted with me once at around age 2. This is something he has _never_ been told, even now, at age 22. And any parent knows, the more you queston a small child on an incident. The more you push for minutae, the more fabulous that story is bound to become. Once the child sees that it is pleasing you with all of this, it will just keep going and going ...If the child volunteers, a simple "that's pretty interesting, but you're OK now, right?" Should be all the discussion you need. All this is just my own humble opinion, Guys, but there it is. >Awaiting a comment from Jerry Clark about any significant issue >of the day, It is very insulting, to a large group of people, to make you're feelings known about how completely without significance you feel we are in so public a way, Dennis.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 24 UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Mulvey From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 17:41:27 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:30:33 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Mulvey >Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 10:37:00 -0500 >From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 15:32:14 -0400 >>From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Hi Gary, >>The malpractice lawsuit process was started in May of '97, I >>believe, and the KC lawyers group took statements from the dozen >>abductees that signed on. >This is a different case against Carpenter which ended up >fizzling? >Ann and list, >It is the same. One reason why this has been keep quiet for so >long was because of the legal actions that were being attempted >against John. Malpractice (started May '97), then a State >Attorney General's Office investigation. The first process >stopped in Jan. '99 as the lawyers didn't want to spend more of >their resources on it; the second in the fall of '99 because of >the passage of the statute of limitations. >The Medical Licensing Board has wanted to wait until the outcome >of any resulting criminal trial before resuming any >investigation on their part. John has already been investigated >once by the board in April through June '97 for unethical >contact with a former psychiatric patient but John at that time >convinced Elizabeth, his soon to be ex-wife, that he would halt >ongoing divorce proceedings if she lied to them to stop the >investigation and she did. The Medical Board is not doing >anything now until a complaint is resubmitted. We are >considering this. >It has taken a long time to determine whether anything legally >would work. Only twenty or so people on the list knew of the >file sale, only twelve signed on to the case because many of >these people_have_lost jobs, marriages or have medical >professional, educational or other high trust-level jobs which >they want none of this to affect. >>I'll assume these 12 are included in the 140 cases that >>Carpenter sold and that they were part of the 20 that already >>knew about the sale. >Yes, We don't even know ourselves all the people on the list and >have not decided if or how to proceed in contacting them as this >process itself causes a huge trauma to be generated. I was >recently notified of someone, a university professor, who was >overcome by a mixture of rage and tears at hearing of his own >connection with the list. The last I heard he was heading over >to Jonh's house to confront him and we all were concerned there >might be a physical altercation. >>Again with only 20 of those 140 indivuals being aware that their >>files had been sold to Bigelow? >Yes. Need I say this is all new and emotional territory we would >have all liked to never see. We take everything one day at a >time. Should everyone be notified? We don't even know the answer >to_this_ question as the problems this generates have never been >dealt with before on such a large scale. What do all of you >think? Hi Gary, Thanks so much for answering my questions. The picture is clear now. IMO, it's not for us to judge whether or not just _some_ of the 120 should be notified. All 120 have the right to know. Having said that we would need to ensure that once this bomb is dropped we have both legal and emotional support in place for these folks should they decide they need it. I'm sure that I'm not alone in receiving bundles emails of support from people who are glad this issue is being pushed. There are people out there that would be willing to volunteer in an effort to let these 120 people know that there files were sold by Carpenter to Bigelow. Among those are professionals who would most certainly be willing to help in a more structured capacity. The method by which these folks learn this information is where we need to be creative. I'm more than willing to assist in this effort. Before I had my children, I was a union organizer at an Ivy League University. I bring this up only to illustrate that going up against big guns creatively is something I have experience at doing. Let me know if or what I can do. Take care, Ann Call: Bigelow 702-456-1606
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 24 UpDate: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video - Randles From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 23:29:19 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:33:31 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video - Randles >Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 04:08:34 -0400 (EDT) >From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 19:45:40 +0100 >>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >>Subject: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 20:41:52 -0400 (EDT) >>>From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com> >>>Subject: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>>Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:14:07 +0100 >>>>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >>>>Subject: Comment On Cheshire Video >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Dear All, >True to form, a certain number of suspects are making up stories >about the witness and videographer of the recent Cheshire >Incident. >So, we await Randles'/Roberts apology! >This smear job is being done so that eyes will be deflected away >from other important issues. UFOIN is operating not from a >position of enlightened objectivity but from one of entrenched >and hostile skepticism whereby any case it does not "own" and >control is to be debunked in order to give it more profile >within Ufology. Hi, I am sure that this List will find Tim's missive a disappointingly empty response and in some ways disturbing. There's no way I am apologising for smears about the witness that I have never made. Indeed I am sure Mr Matthews knows my posts made no such comments and so owes me an apology for trying to claim they did. I am happy to accept that he has got so confused about this case that he appears to believe that my posts do make smears . But that would make me only slightly less concerned. In any case all of you can check on the past few days posts on this list to discover the truth of what I have said. But - kindly - Tim - to save everyone time why not print the parts of MY posts (since you name me specifically so they have to be MY posts) where I have made such smears against the witness. You either put up or shut up and say sorry. And if you don't put up in your next reply I will leave others to decide for themselves what that means. I personally have no way to know the extent of the witnesses relationship with Eric Morris nor, of course, its relevance to the case. It may well have no relevance if it exists. Tim notes that the two men did know one another to some degree before hand which was presumably the point Andy Roberts was bringing to the attention of this list. But I have purposefully avoided all reference to people or politics and focused entirely on the case, its investigation, the possibility of a balloon being filmed and asking relevant questions on this. In reply - these questions are not being answered and instead the list is taken off into personalised charges which I am doing my best to avoid. So please stop distracting this list with smoke and mirrors. As for his twaddle about UFOIN. I am sure the entire list recognises how beneath response that is as well as sensing that its another diversion away from giving actual information about this case. This tirade against 20 of the UK's most experienced Ufologists is silly. I should imagine that most of you know that is. I could waste half your night explaining why its nonsense and reacting emotively and so forget about the case. But all that would do is take us away from the issues that matter here . So - sorry I'm not playing. Please - for the final time simply reply to reasonable questions about this video that I have politely posted. Or at least tell us why you do not believe the people on this List deserve to hear those answers. I will not waste this lists time by posting this request again. They are all intelligent people and will presumably have their own view about further evasions should they occur. Since I am only asking for a few basic facts. Nothing top secret or controversial. Best wishes, Jenny Randles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 24 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Stacy From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 18:53:46 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:35:46 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Stacy >Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 12:12:35 -0400 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Besides...what if abductions are real? (A possibility, by the >way, that I think is often neglected in abduction debates.) Then >the children really do need help, and an abduction investigator >might be the only one who currently can either provide it, or >work closely with parents to help them do so. >Greg Sandow Greg, As I understand it after reading (or rather trying to read) 'The Threat', if abductions are indeed real, there's not much anyone can do about them. In a word, we're all done for. In that vein, concerned parents probably should vote for the presidential candidate who promises to build the biggest missile defense shield the quickest -- assuming our alien invaders permit such effrontery on our part, of course. You'd think our fellow Earthlings would be cheering us on in this endeavor, instead of actively opposing us. If abductions are literal, physical events, then children and parents alike can only be consoled and comforted. If abductions aren't literal, physical events, then there's at least a likelihood that some adults and many children will be harmed by proceeding as if they were real. If children are being routinely abducted (which would include accounts of adults now in their 40s and 50s who claim that their abductions began in childhood), then one wonders why this phenomenon has never turned up in the pediatric literature on its own. This is not an idle point, BTW. In any event, it strikes me as extremely unscientific to take childhood statements at face value, especially in regard to something as controversial as physical abductions, and particularly in a society aswamp with alien and science fiction themes and images -- before all other avenues and explanations have been exhausted. Another way of saying that physical abduction by aliens is the last place we should look, and surely not the first. Moreover, I'm afraid that my confidence in childhood abduction "claims" is not exactly sky high. The gap in reality between what we hear and see in print about such stories may be quite huge. By way of example, I was recently interviewed for a forthcoming TV documentary on UFOs and abductions. After the microphones and cameras were turned off, we sat around, shooting the proverbial bull. I said something about the propensity of some researchers to stamp almost anything with the alien label before exhausting all other options. The interviewer then told me about a UFO event they had attended and filmed for their documentary. During an informal Friday night gathering involving abductees and researchers, one of the abductees mentioned that one of her children had recently grown apprehensive about the window near the foot of his bed. I don't remember the exact details, but I think the parents had begun drawing the blinds every night in order to ease the child's disquiet. (In the same way that I've had to recenly start leaving the bathroom light on in my own eight-year-old's bathroom.) Nothing was said, however, about the child reporting entities coming into his room or being whisked away to a waiting spaceship -- just a vague unease about a particular window. The following day, one of the researchers present was delivering his previously prepared speech. At one point he said something to the effect that, "Oh, by the way, I've just learned that so-and-so's youngest child is now undergoing abduction experiences as well." In less than 24 hours, an arguably typical childhood encounter with the dark had been blown into a full-fledged abduction by a well known UFO researcher. Are abductions real? Possibly, I suppose. Should children always be taken literally? Somehow, I don't think so. Dennis Stacy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 24 UpDate: Re: Another MJ12 Source - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 21:06:05 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:37:55 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Another MJ12 Source - Gates >Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:14:30 -0400 >From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net> >Subject: Re: Another MJ12 Source >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:29:41 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: Another MJ-12 Source >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:44:34 -0400 >>>Subject: Another MJ-12 Source >>>From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>After I read the above, it reminded me of Richard Hoagland's >>so-called never wrong, never told a like in their life, top >>drawer, intelligence community sources who were feeding him >>various pieces of information that never came true, like last >>years ET's were going to land on an Arizona mountain top etc >>etc. >>Anyways after I had a good chuckle reading through the post, >>then I read your bottom line about taking the funnier of the >>theories as I LOL :) You should ask this source if he had any >>info on JFK's brain, or Elvis being still alive somewhere, it >>would have been funnier. >>Thanks for a funny post, I appreciated it. >Robert, >Have you ever spoke with someone with claims to have direct >knowledge of or have worked for MJ12? I have spoken with 10 such >persons - from retired AF COLs in line to be vice AF commander >to NRO contractors to TRW employees working in clandestine intel >gathering to FBI/Treasury agents to former OMB auditors. They >all say it exists and tell the same 'story'. >Example #1: >Individual worked as an auditor for OMB in the '80s. He audited >classified programs in the Old Executive Building in DC. There >he saw and read about a variety of programs that dealt with >aliens. Not only did he see a reference to MJ12 but in 1987 went >to Ft Meade to meet with them. >Example #2: >Retired AF COL who worked nuclear and stealth programs. As >earlier posted, read about Roswell at Sandia. Elsewhere, saw >written references to MJ12 and its MAJESTIC codeword. >I am a West Point grad who worked a contractor with a number of >intelligence agencies - NSA, NRO, CIA, DIA, AIA, NIMA - and >developed some patented technology (5,764,973) to assist NSA. I >have personally met with the past Deputy Directors of NSA (Bill >Crowell) and CIA/SS&T (Dr. Ruth David) in their offices. I speak >their lingo and know who to ask about things - like MJ12. >I find your dismissive attitude amusing. Your choice. >Best Regards, >Bob Huff >"Given a choice between two theories, take the one which is >funnier." Bob, Over the years there has been numbers of people who have told storys and tales that are later proven to be false, i.e. Hoagland's so called intel community sources who were literally feeding him bogus info. You also probably remember so called Col Steve Wilson who had all sorts of tales and storys, war time decorations, commanded specific units etc. Problem was that when the info was independently checked, it was bogus. Naturally Hoagland probably made the assumption: 'Well other people have been lied to, but not me... after all these are top level, top drawer, retired military, never-told-a-lie-in their-life people.' I re-read your post and still thought what your sources were unloading on you was very funny. Obviously you take them seriously... your choice. Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 24 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 21:07:16 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:40:57 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mortellaro >Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 00:20:18 -0500 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:27:21 -0700 >>From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.coAbductee Files/Our Childrenm> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> ><snip> >>Children have often been involved in abduction work. It may come >>as a surprise to James [Easton] and perhaps to others, but children of >>abductees routinely -- and entirely on their own -- report what >>sound like abduction experiences. Or so many abductees have >>said. >Greg, List, >These are exciting times on UFO UpDates, with many questions of >true importance and implication being addressed almost by the >hour. Unfortunately, I find myself more than usually wrapped up >in John Lennon's observation that life is what happens while >you're making other plans. Dear Dennis, Listers and EBK, Bless me father for I have sinned, It has been thirty-five years since my last confession. The only sin I wish to confess is that something terrible has been happening to me. I am beginning to agree with Dennis the Menace. Father, is there any hope for me? Oh no, I don't agree with everything, but I am finding a good deal on which I find ... uh, that I agree with. Please go easy with me regarding my penance. I ain't the man I used to be. You know, I ain't got the strength to say alla them Hail Mary's and Our Father's. Here are the specifics, Father... <snip> >Let's begin lightly. If you weren't aware of the internal >contradictions of your own above paragraph, let me point them >out. On the one hand you say that children of abductees >routinely report "entirely on their own" what sound like >abduction experiences, but then go on to say "or so many >abductees have said." >So which is it? Have the children come forth on their own (and >if so, to whom?), or have the abductees (presumably their >parents) come forth for them? Big difference, I hope you would >agree. <snip> Would you accept the following, Dennis? I know some abductees who, when they were little ones, volunteered their experiences on their own, and to their parents. Mostly, by telling them about the dreams they had; dreams which the children perceived were not dreams at all, but actual events. I know at least one of those types quite imtimately. Me. >But why assume any such questioning by parent or >researcher would be so blatantly crude to begin with? Let's >assume they're subtilely and simply asked, "Did you have a >strange dream last night," or "Did anyone enter your bedroom >while Mommy and Daddy were asleep"? An invitation to fantasy or >not? I do not really understand this line of reasoning. Neither yours nor Greg's, unless I am misinterpreting you guys. My parents never had to ask me anything. I am the one who volunteered the information about what happened to me during the night. I told them about the little doctors who took me into their hospital in the sky. They are the ones who told me it was all just a bad dream. I told them, "no it was not, mommy and daddy! It really happened to me just that way!" I told them about the little people coming into my room, floating me up on a solid beam of blue light. Floating me down the corridor of their hospital. I do not recall my parents ever asking me about my dreams. It was always I who told them all about it. And I continued to do that until the day I moved out of the house at age 26, when I moved in to our new home with my then new wife. >But why worry about the questioning aspect at all if the >children were entirely forthcoming on their own? Agreed. (Oh my gosh, what have I said?) >Forthcoming to who? Seems to me the problem is now one of follow up >questioning, by whom, and under what circumstances, forgetting >for the moment whether children are proper interview subjects >for this sort of thing or not. Forthcoming to their parents of course. There is no need for the parent to ask questions of the child unless and until the child comes to them with the problem or the event. My opinion, of course. >Short example: your son or daughter tells you that doctors took >him away at night. Do you console him by saying that you didn't >see any doctors, or do you begin grilling him as to what the >doctors were wearing and what they _really_ looked liked? Rosie and I have no children. One of the reasons is what I had to go through when I was a child. There are other reasons not relevant to this discussion. To answer your (sort of) question, you console the child, telling him or her that it was likely just a dream and leaving it at that. Anything the child says must be clearly understood, but the questions should be held to a minimum. The worst thing which may be done is to enforce what the child may have experienced by asking very pointed questions. It may have indeed been a dream. But continuing with specific questions may influence the child. Children may be inexperienced but largely, they are not stupid. Getting more and more attention is something kids like. And if they find that the more they embellish in a particular direction, the more attentiont they get, you and I both know what is likely to happen. >>But it's a different story when a kid comes to you and says >>"Little doctors came to my room last night and took me to the >>sky." Or, "I saw monsters last night. It wasn't a dream." Or, >>"Bad people came to my room and made me go in their spaceship." >>Skeptics may widen their eyes in horror at all this, but I >>suggest they first talk to some of the many abductees who've >>reported such things from their own kids. The abductees, >>needless to say, are shocked. They haven't gone around talking >>about abductions in front of their young kids. And now the kids >>apparently are reporting what sound like abductions on their >>own. >Actually, it doesn't take a skeptic to be horrified, or, if not >horrified, at least concerned and asking askance about the >child's future welfare and exactly what the hell is going on >here. Once again, you've said on one hand that this is >forthcoming from the child him or herself, then say that this is >what their parents report, parents who, presumably, have passed >their own apprehensions down the family chain. Even if the >parents haven't, society has, unless we have a plethora of >abductees who have somehow managed to block their children off >from all media references to outright alien abductors, never >mind similarities to all sorts of doctor, crime, and news TV >shows overflowing with references and allusions to kidnapping, >medical emergencies, and all sorts of other contemporary social >crises. There are parents out there who are experiencers and who also have done an admirable job at bringing their kids up with minimal exposure to this phenom. These days it is virtually impossible to keep kids away from this subject, but I know two families who have done exactly that, educating their children at home, controlling all of which the kids see by allowing them to watch only certain TV programs and otherwise limiting access to the media. While I do not agree with this methodology, there are some 4 and 5 year olds out there who seem to know a good deal about the phenom in spite of the actions of the parents. By the way, the main reason for such activity in the first place is the intergenerational abduction experiences of several generations of these families. The idea was to keep the knowledge of such events from the children and see how much they could come up with on their own, if at all. >Mind, we're not talking adults here, but children. >>I've heard these stories from abductees myself. They're not >>exactly amusing. In one case, reported to me more or less out of >>the blue, someone who wasn't an abductee was reading Budd >>Hopkins's "Witnessed," one of the many abduction books with a >>picture of the standard alien on the cover. This person's four >>year-old granddaughter, if I'm remembering correctly, saw the >>book in his house, and immediately went off on it. "He's bad! >>He's bad! He's bad! the kid screamed, pointing at the alien. >>"Why is he bad?" "He comes to my room at night and takes me >>away." >One is sorrily tempted to say, "So?" And follow that up with, >"What's amusing got to do with it?" Clearly, without knowing >what images and information have gone into any indivudual child, >we are poorly prepared to address or objectively assess any >images or information coming _out_ of said child, even more so >when expressed as something dreamed or experienced during normal >sleep time. Not terribly surprising that a child should find the image of an alien to be "bad." Someone tell me please, if they find the face appealing or intimidating. Any child who finds the visage to be anything but intimidating (at the least) would surprise me. Maybe even shock. Of course, this is merely my opinion and could be based on my own reaction to this visage. But I don't think so. >>Skeptics, of course, will become variously horrified or derisive >>reading all this. They'll be sure the kids have been prompted in >>some way, or overheard discussions, or [fill in the standard >>skeptical stuff]. And sometimes all that could be true. On the >>other hand, it really won't do to approach abductions with the >>certainty that it's all got to be nonsense, before you've done >>any research. And if abductees' kids really are reporting this >>stuff, and have _not_ been prompted in any way, then someone >>really ought to look into it...which is all any responsible >>abduction investigator ever does. Once a kid reports these >>things, it's not unreasonable to ask "What did the monsters look >>like?" or "What did the bad people do to you?" or "How did they >>take you up to the sky" or "Why do you think this wasn't a >>dream?" >Yes, that's precisely the point, as far as children are >concerned: "Sometimes that could all be true." And, yes, it _is_ >unreasonable to follow up with questions that invite and/or >promote extrapolation of an experience, especially a negative >one. Do you really think that Budd Hopkins, Dave Jacobs or even >John Mack should be interviewing children about anything, never >mind the possibility of alien abductions? In my view, no. But here again, some parents decide to do otherwise and bring their kids to see the man, in the hope that the child may actually have had an experience. I see such parents as being about the same as a daddy who expects his kid to excel at Little League. Or the mother who expects her little girl to win the beauty contest. But that's just me. If I were a researcher, I would stay away from any kids by virtue of the potential problems which may be encountered. >Sorry, Greg, but this is a no brainer. If a child is >experiencing problems in this area, the last thing he or she >needs is someone trying to interview them and/or extract >additional information. The proposition is absurd on its face. >What can Budd or Dave possibly hope to learn from an >inarticulate child that they couldn't learn from an articulate >adult? Oh God, again I find myself agreeing. What has become of me? What hath God wrought? >All they can do, by the very nature of the inquiry itself, is >run the risk of influencing the child they are interviewing, >superimposing their adult worldview on the relatively innocent. >I cannot emphasize this strongly enough: there is nothing to be >gained from interviewing a child that couldn't conceivably be >gained from interviewing adults (whether their parents or not). >They can add _nothing_ to the _existing_ equation, so why >involve them on any level at all? What is there possibly to be >gained? Absolutely nothing. >>Isn't that what any parents would do, quite apart from >>abductions, if their kids told them about a frightening >>experience? >Maybe you don't have any children of your own. But to answer >your question, no, that is not what I would do. That is, if my >kid told me something frightful had happened to him during the >night, I would certainly not belabor him with more and more >follow up questions, seeking ever more minute details about just >exactly what it was that set him off. I would do exctly the >opposite. >Children are children. I'm sorry, but an abstract artist and an >historian have no business, let alone a right, to be conducting >follow up interviews with children about _anything_. This is >wrong behavior on their part, pure and simple. >You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see it as such. And I >don't care how personably honorable Hopkins and Jacobs are: >_this is not their purview._ Personally, as a perceived abductee, I agree that children should not be interviewed unless there is a very compelling reason to do so. Most abductees see researchers because they are unable to live their lives without the catharsis, without attempting to learn what the events they recall in their memory were real or not real. Children have not had the opportunity of living long enough to expect a catharsis to be meaningful. Neither could a child be expected to understand what may have happened to him or her after such a catharsis. You are quite correct, it does nothing, in my opinion, to help a child. Maybe not even the parent(s). Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 24 UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 21:07:16 -0400 Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 21:23:58 -0400 (EDT ) Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:43:01 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Gates >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:47:35 -0400 (EDT) >From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:17:33 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Bourdais >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:45:24 -0400 >>>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >>>Subject: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>The one thing the Woods have done, is brought to light that SOM >>>1-01 came from Kirtland AFB. What honest, upstanding, honorable >>>military man associated with Bill Moore also came from Kirtland? >>Are we to understand that the answer to your question is Richard >>Doty? >>Do you mean that Master Sergeant Richard Doty was, presumably, >>the author of SOM1-01 ? >>Gildas Bourdais >I repeat my question. >I really would like an answer to it. >Gildas Bourdais I don't think Doty himself could create the documents in question. But it seems like alot of these so called documents come from Kirkland, so either that AFB is the master storage site for the MJ-12 archives, and or retired MJ-12 with still allegedly highly classified documents in a trunk in their closet, OR our "hoaxster" lives nearby. Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 24 UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes - From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 02:28:11 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:44:30 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes - Regarding: >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 13:51:42 -0400 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> >Subject: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Andy, The 'British UFO Studies Centre' (BUFOSC) news release which proclaimed, "Best Ever UFO Video' Captured By Cheshire Man!'", also stated, "...we have and are being assisted in this matter by Nick Pope, formerly of Air Staff 2a where he looked into UFO sightings and reports from the public in an official capacity and on a limited basis". Can this possibly be the same Nick Pope of whom Tim Matthews, "Press Officer" of BUFOSC, said only a few months ago, "The guy's a joke and the fact that anyone takes him seriously is evidence of the total rot within Ufology". And that, "...we have wiped the floor with his sales pitch on too many occasions. He knew nothing whilst at Air Staff and knows nothing now - except a good agent, Andrew Lownie". See: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/nov/m19-016.shtml According to BUFOSC, "UFO Magazine's Russ Callaghan saw the footage on 16th July and says that it is 'the best footage I have ever seen'." However, on the 'UFO Magazine' web site, Callaghan has immediately and vehemently refuted this, releasing the following statement: It is reported in several newspapers, websites and other strands of the media that I have passed comment on a video recording in the possession of Mr. Eric Morris. Quote: 'The best I've ever seen'. I have made no such statement. Eric invited me to view the video at his home in Northwhich Sunday 16th July. The video shows a illuminated source which appears to tumble in the low cloud cover, the auto focus of the camera tries to focus on the object but the cloudy sky and the brightness of the object make it difficult for the camera.(Manual focus would have revealed much more). The cameraman asks someone with him to go get his 'Air Band' scanner, immediately the scanner is brought to the camera we hear a distant conversation. Eric suggests that the two way conversation is either Manchester or Liverpool airport in contact with a pilot. He also suggests that the conversation is referring to the illuminated object. The word 'Quango' is heard twice, (Eric's translation) and then the conversation goes dead or the frequency changes or the scanner is turned off. I offered my services to Eric to try and lift the background air traffic conversation and see if we could get hold of the master tape. He suggested coming to the office of UFO Magazine on Tuesday 18th July with either a copy or the master tape, this did not happen. Eric also told me he had spoken with Nick Pope (MoD) who had suggested the air traffic conversation was some 'Secret Jargon', is Mr Pope aware of such practices, I wonder. My only comments on the footage were that is was 'Interesting' but we would need to do a lot of work on the sound track and make some investigations before passing any comment. I hope those who have reported innacurate comments attributed to me will take note of this statement. Russel Callaghan. [End] Following the press release, BUFOSC claimed, "Nick and Russ have shown themselves to be true professionals - genuine and concerned Ufologists". I see that, initially, BUFOSC note that Pope's official involvement with any UFO reports was indeed "limited". Does this apparently new-found 'professionalism and genuiness' extend to Pope now acknowledging that, as the Ministry of Defence, quite extraordinarily, and perhaps gladly, confirmed to myself when I asked for a formal statement about Nick Pope's claims: "Mr Pope was employed as an Executive Officer in Secretariat (Air Staff) 2. The main duties of the post concern non-operational RAF activities overseas and diplomatic clearance policy for military flights abroad. A small percentage of time is spent dealing with reports from the public about alleged 'UFO' sightings and associated public correspondence. The Ministry of Defence has not investigated a case of alien abduction, crop circle formations or animal mutilation". A copy of the MoD's letter can be verified at: http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/mod_pope.jpg Call me a sceptidebunker if you will, but I can't imagine Nick Pope latterly, or ever, admitting to this. Last I heard, he was still claiming a more extraordinary role in the Ministry's 'serious concerns' about 'alien abductions, crop circles and animal mutilations'. From 'Voyager' newsletter No. 9: 'Operation BlunderPope' In the last issue of 'Nick Pope's Weird World', our man at the Ministry reported: "There have been several recent Internet posts about my work at the Ministry of Defence, and regrettably, some of what has been claimed is inaccurate. It all started when James Easton wrote to the MOD asking for some details about their policy and views on UFOs, and enquiring about my official research and investigation". It's inauspicious when this is inaccurate to begin with. Gaynor South, current incumbent at the Ministry of Defence's 'UFO desk', had previously been helpful during my research into the infamous December 1980, 'Rendlesham Forest UFO landing' story. Investigations into that case proved to be worthwhile and most significantly I unearthed previously unpublished, original witness testimonies. As now known, these contained fundamental, documented proof that Orfordness lighthouse was at least partly responsible for the 'UFO' terror. This was something known to all participants and which they neglected to mention when later recounting 'UFO' tales for the media. Copies of my research papers [some yet unpublished, but soon to be] were forwarded for the Ministry's information and Gaynor expressed their appreciation for such unprecedented feedback. I recently wrote to Gaynor: I should be grateful if the Ministry would please answer the following questions: 1. During Mr Pope's tenure at the 'UFO desk', what was his exact job title? 2. What were his main duties? 3. Approximately how much of that time was spent on 'UFO related' investigations? 4. Has the job title, its main duties and the allocation of time to 'UFO' matters changed since Pope's day? 5. Have the Ministry of Defence ever, as Pope alleges, investigated to any significant extent a single case where a 'crop circle', 'alien abduction', or 'animal mutilation ('cattle mutilation') has been reported and if so, what was the outcome? [End] Contrary to Pope's statement, there were no queries concerning the MoD's policy or views on 'UFOs' (which are well testified). Persisting with falsehoods, Pope writes: "From what I understand, Easton has only quoted selectively from the MOD's reply, and this has resulted in a misleading picture being given". Other than myself, no-one outside the Ministry had seen their reply and we can only speculate how Pope can 'understand' there was important material omitted. As we shall see, the misleading picture, intentionally or otherwise, comes from Nick himself. Nothing was 'selectively quoted', the Ministry's reply to those questions being quoted in its entirety and a copy of the information I published, entitled, 'Nick Pope - The Ministry of Defence Respond' can be seen at: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/oct/m03-010.shtml Pope continues: "I thought I'd set the record straight, and to do so, we need to look at the statements in the MOD letter: 'The Ministry of Defence has not investigated a case of alien abduction, crop circle formations or animal mutilation'. "I described my work with abductees in chapter 8 of The Uninvited, while my work on crop circles and animal mutilations was set out in chapters 5 and 6 of Open Skies, Closed Minds. Both books were cleared by the MOD". Faced with the direct question, where is Pope's confirmation that this 'work' was on behalf of the MoD? It simply isn't there and, Pope provides an 'indirect' response, which insinuates this work was 'officially approved'. I wonder if Pope has forgotten that he did in fact go to great lengths in 'The Uninvited' to make it clear that his involvement with the stories of 'abductees' had no connection whatsoever with official duties. He explained how this was, "not in my remit" and later again notes it, "was not in my job description". In plain English, which Pope is normally adept at, it had nothing to do with the MoD. Maybe that's why they 'cleared' his book. Pope surmises: "I can't respond to every Internet post that makes misleading statements about my official research and investigations, but in this instance a genuine MOD letter was being selectively quoted from and misinterpreted". Disappointing that Pope has leapt from a baseless 'from what I understand' to promoting that bogus allegation as fact. What does he believe, if at all, was conceivably 'selectively excluded' from the Ministry's reply? Something like, 'To be truthful, Mr Pope has singularly exposed that we do fear 'crop circles' and 'alien abductions' to be an alarming threat to the defence of the realm... no, honestly... you wouldn't believe how seriously we take this'. Fortunately, it's easily proven that there was nothing of importance omitted from the Ministry's letter, which was actually quite brief, and a copy can be seen on my web site at [updated]: http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/mod_pope.jpg With my permission, Pope is duly invited to ask the MoD for a copy. He can then be in no doubt that the Ministry merely substantiate what Pope was perhaps compelled to clarify in his book, that his eclectic beliefs were borne of personal interest and unrelated to anything, outside of 'UFO' reports, the MoD ever investigated. Why he chooses to portray a different picture in more recent times, particularly as it isn't too difficult to see the true facts, is presumably a case of 'enthusiastic marketing'. [End] "I can't respond to every Internet post that makes misleading statements about my official research and investigations, but in this instance a genuine MOD letter was being selectively quoted from and misinterpreted". Misleading statements and selective quotes? I never did appreciate that unfounded slur. Subscribers can be the judge of who's comfortable with the truth and whether they actually care for the integrity of ufology, or if the facts here indicate someone is confident that all ufologists are gullible fools, ripe for a related book or three. Given the apparently confirmed hype from BUFOSC's recent publicity, we can only wonder if they might have taken advice from the much maligned Andrew Lownie. Doubtless, he would have applauded. James Easton. E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk www.ufoworld.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 24 UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Bourdais From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 22:27:55 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:47:41 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Bourdais >From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com> >Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:47:35 -0400 (EDT) >Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Bourdais >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:17:33 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Bourdais >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:45:24 -0400 >>>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >>>Subject: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> I have just returned after a trip so that is why I haven't answered. The person(s) who wrote SOM 1-01 are not technical nor tactical astute militarily. They don't have the foggiest idea about bivouacs, perimeters, exclusion areas, camouflage, or how to sustain field operations. They did know some little bit about the the military. This piece of junk is a publication that does have some military knowledge about it. However, it is a bad attempt, a cut and paste job of rather poor quality. Dr. Robert Wood was astute enough to figure out that the "TO" (Technical Order) number indicated some kind of Air Force electronic manual. Bravo. However, he did not follow this to the logical conclusion, find that manual at the Air University or the Air Force Historical Research Agency. When I visited the Army Historical Institute, I did try to find such a manual in the Army Technical Manual collection, however, this collection is incomplete. The 350-Pamphlet series for 1954 does not indicate joint Army/Air Force manuals for this period. Finding this manual was not the object of my research at the time, additional information on the Ghost Rockets were. Please note that Bob Pratt co-authored with Bill Moore a fiction work on government documents and a supersecret UFO investigative organization prior to the MJ-12 documents surfacing. Pratt suspected that Doty was helping Moore with some of the military aspects of the book. I don't know if Doty supplied military manuals for a cut and paste job or helped author SOM 1-01, but he sure was in the area and probably had the opporunity. However, that is just idle speculation. That the manual is stupid and worthless is not. Jan Aldrich
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 24 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 00:04:15 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 21:02:32 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow >Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 00:20:18 -0500 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Let's begin lightly. If you weren't aware of the internal >contradictions of your own above paragraph, let me point them >out. On the one hand you say that children of abductees >routinely report "entirely on their own" what sound like >abduction experiences, but then go on to say "or so many >abductees have said." >So which is it? Have the children come forth on their own (and >if so, to whom?), or have the abductees (presumably their >parents) come forth for them? Big difference, I hope you would >agree. Oh, Dennis. I wish I had your imagination. Then, when I read something that bothered me, I could refute it simply by making things up. That's what you've done here, as you'll see if you'll only take a deep breath and calm down. Yes, the children come forth on their own. They come forth to their own parents. Who else? My caveat -- "or so many abductees have said" -- was just my attempt to be responsible, to put on the record that my source for what these children do is their abductee parents. Or, in one case, a non-abductee grandparent. I haven't talked to any abductee children myself. (And wouldn't you be horrified if I had?) To make it really plain: I've heard and read so many accounts of what children supposedly say to their abductee parents that I'm willing to believe them. (Oh, and what I've read has most powerfully been in letters or e-mails from the parents, not in secondhand reports by abduction researchers.) But I was careful to say that I haven't myself been present when any child has said these things. >>I heavily stress the words "entirely on their own." Nobody with >>any sense would approach a child, especially their own child, >>and start asking questions like, "Have you ever been abducted by >>aliens"? Or, "Have you ever had creatures with big black eyes >>come into your bedroom?" >Agreed. But why assume any such questioning by parent or >researcher would be so blatantly crude to begin with? Let's >assume they're subtilely and simply asked, "Did you have a >strange dream last night," or "Did anyone enter your bedroom >while Mommy and Daddy were asleep"? An invitation to fantasy >or not? And who, Dennis, put the thought in your own overactive mind that researchers ask questions like these? (Or at least the abduction researchers I respect.) You're having fantasies of your own. Tonight, by pure coincidence, I happened to read a letter a Wisconsin couple wrote to Budd some years ago. They'd heard him interviewed on the radio, and began to wonder about their child. Seems like a couple of years before, she'd started talking about a "man" who came to her room. I wish I could contact the couple who wrote the letter, and ask their permission to post it here (without their names, of course). Then we'd at least have a primary source to debate, instead of pontificating about things which many of those joining in this discussion know little or nothing about. (Admit it, Dennis; you're one of them. Whisper the confession into my compassionate ear.) The letter is five single spaced pages, about 2000 words. It's carefully written, simply recounting what the parents say happen, with no assumptions and no conclusions. It's also quite emotional; the parents haven't understood what was happening to their child, except that she seemed, in their opinion, to be having some kind of real experience. But they'd heard nothing of abductions, and until they heard Budd on the radio, they say, they didn't know what the experience might be, other than, just possibly, visions of the dead. And that was a stretch; it wasn't that they believed in that explanation, but only that such a thing was all they could think of in trying to find a cause for what was happening. They also say they're writing from 20 pages of notes they took at the time. In any case, as they tell the story, the child (admittedly very young -- two and a half when she started, about four when they wrote the letter) repeatedly brought this up on her own, almost always very upset. A "man" came to her room. He took her up to the sky and made her watch TV. "The TV in our living room?" (That's the only kind of question the parents ever asked.) "No, a TV in his house." He had no mouth and big eyes. He lived in the moon. Note the wording -- "in" the moon. The parents think that's wrong, and that she must have meant "on" the moon, but note that she always said "in the moon," possibly suggesting that she was taken inside some luminous object. Once in a bookstore they saw a copy of "Communion," and the little girl pointed to the cover and said, "That's him!" Or, rather, she said "that's one of the beauties," "beauties" being one of the names she gave to these visitors she wouldn't stop talking about. (When she was asked why she called them that, she said that's what they called themselves." There was lots more like this, all fitting the standard abduction scenario. And no, I'm not insisting it has to be real. Given, Dennis, your propensity to exaggerate and misread what I'm saying, I'm going to be painstakingly clear. I'm using this as an exceptionally clear example of the way children are reported to tell these stories on their own. In this case, the parents were taken completely by surprised, hadn't asked any leading questions, and weren't even aware of abductions. Obviously (to anticipate a likely objection) I know that any frightened child might point to a frightening being on the cover of a book and say "That's the man who's been scaring me!" I know this doesn't prove anything. As one piece of a larger picture, it's suggestive, but no more than that. But again, I'm not saying we have to believe this child was abducted -- only that she was reported to have told stories that sound abduction-like with no prompting from anyone. >But why worry about the questioning aspect at all if the >children were entirely forthcoming on their own? Forthcoming to >who? Seems to me the problem is now one of follow up >questioning, by whom, and under what circumstances, forgetting >for the moment whether children are proper interview subjects >for this sort of thing or not. >Short example: your son or daughter tells you that doctors took >him away at night. Do you console him by saying that you didn't >see any doctors, or do you begin grilling him as to what the >doctors were wearing and what they _really_ looked liked? "Grilling." Your word, Dennis, and a loaded one it is. Who told you that anyone has been "grilling" children about their possible abductions? Maybe you're making it up. >Actually, it doesn't take a skeptic to be horrified, or, if not >horrified, at least concerned and asking askance about the >child's future welfare and exactly what the hell is going on >here. Once again, you've said on one hand that this is >forthcoming from the child him or herself, then say that this is >what their parents report, parents who, presumably, have passed >their own apprehensions down the family chain. Even if the >parents haven't, society has, unless we have a plethora of >abductees who have somehow managed to block their children off >from all media references to outright alien abductors, never >mind similarities to all sorts of doctor, crime, and news TV >shows overflowing with references and allusions to kidnapping, >medical emergencies, and all sorts of other contemporary social >crises. It would never occur to you, of course, that children were telling these stories before the media were full of alien abductions. The letter I talked about dates from 1988. Nor would it occur to you, apparently, to look for proof that children tell these stories because they're influenced by the media. Sure, we need to be careful, but it's not enough to say that because children _might_ be influenced, we can assume that they have been. Stories of sexual abuse are rampant in the media. Does that mean we disregard children who tell us somebody's been touching them? >>I've heard these stories from abductees myself. They're not >>exactly amusing. In one case, reported to me more or less out of >>the blue, someone who wasn't an abductee was reading Budd >>Hopkins's "Witnessed," one of the many abduction books with a >>picture of the standard alien on the cover. This person's four >>year-old granddaughter, if I'm remembering correctly, saw the >>book in his house, and immediately went off on it. "He's bad! >>He's bad! He's bad! the kid screamed, pointing at the alien. >>"Why is he bad?" "He comes to my room at night and takes me >>away." >One is sorrily tempted to say, "So?" And follow that up with, >"What's amusing got to do with it?" Clearly, without knowing >what images and information have gone into any indivudual child, >we are poorly prepared to address or objectively assess any >images or information coming _out_ of said child, even more so >when expressed as something dreamed or experienced during normal >sleep time. "Expressed as something dreamed." Something else you're making up, Dennis. These stories children tell have to be examined in context of the child's life, obviously. Seems to me, though, Dennis, that you're rejecting them without making that examination. Or, to be more precise, that you're talking as if you reject them, or were ready to do so. You haven't actually written the words, but your tone is unmistakable. >Yes, that's precisely the point, as far as children are >concerned: "Sometimes that could all be true." And, yes, it _is_ >unreasonable to follow up with questions that invite and/or >promote extrapolation of an experience, especially a negative >one. Do you really think that Budd Hopkins, Dave Jacobs or even >John Mack should be interviewing children about anything, never >mind the possibility of alien abductions? And who, exactly, is asking these questions you're making up? >Sorry, Greg, but this is a no brainer. If a child is >experiencing problems in this area, the last thing he or she >needs is someone trying to interview them and/or extract >additional information. The proposition is absurd on its face. >What can Budd or Dave possibly hope to learn from an >inarticulate child that they couldn't learn from an articulate >adult? Again, you're making up a scenario, and taking for granted that it's true. The scenario seems to be about kids who report frightening experiences to their parents, and then are "grilled," or "interviewed," or have information "extracted" from them by abduction researchers who want to learn something that they can't learn from adults. The reality, at least as I've heard about it, is far more gentle. None of the people you've named is grilling children, or pulling information from them. They aren't treating these children as sources of information. Where _do_ you get your ideas? >All they can do, by the very nature of the inquiry itself, is >run the risk of influencing the child they are interviewing, >superimposing their adult worldview on the relatively innocent. As Ronald Reagan said to Jimmy Carter, "There you go again." What kind of "inquiry" do you imagine anyone is making? >I cannot emphasize this strongly enough: there is nothing to be >gained from interviewing a child that couldn't conceivably be >gained from interviewing adults (whether their parents or not). >They can add _nothing_ to the _existing_ equation, so why >involve them on any level at all? What is there possibly to be >gained? Absolutely nothing. Not so, though that's not the important issue here. Adults remember being abducted when they were children. Children's reports might corroborate those accounts, and also might corroborate details of what supposedly happens. But, as I said, that's not the important issue. The point I want to make, speaking quietly in the midst of Dennis's fantasies and exaggerations, is that nobody is grilling children. Nobody I know, anyway. Nobody says, "Wow, your _kids_ are being abducted. Lemme at 'em! I want to know what's going on." Instead, adults are horrified by what their kids are telling them, and ask people like Budd for help. That help might involve talking to the kids. Without "grilling" them. Shortly I'll post something Budd has written on this subject. Then we can fire buckshot at it, if we like -- but at least we'll know what we're talking about. Oh, and a word about the tone of this post. Normally I'm much more patient. But, as I reread Chris Rutowski's latest, it struck me that abduction skeptics don't hesitate to write derisvely about abduction researchers. So why not give them a taste of their own medicine? But I was easy on Dennis. I didn't suggest that some abduction skeptics might be so frightened of the subject that they can't think straight -- though sometimes I wonder if that's not true. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 24 UpDate: Re: Abductees - Beaver From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 21:58:53 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 21:07:08 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductees - Beaver >Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 23:46:44 -0400 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Re: Abductees >UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >I'm sure you realize this was just the tip of the iceberg! Also, >it's very frustrating to have someone come on the List, make the >claims you've made, and then not supply any details. Dear Liz: I don't really see what I said as claims. I'm sure you and others do, but, in general I believe that claims tend to be something stated in order to prove something or achieve something, like get money from having more clients. 1) I could care less if even 1 soul believes even 1 word I've said. 2) I also don't really care if I ever get a client from having stated what I said. These "claims" also are probably as hard to believe as the others, but just as true none the less. >I get tired >of hearing: "You'll have to read my book", especially when >there is as yet no publisher. How do you think I feel. I've spent 20 yrs. (or pieces there of) working on something that will, most likely, never see the light of day. No big deal right? If you knew what was in it you might be upset also. But, like the above, I'm not really tied to the outcome of getting it published. Understanding the truth behind these things, which has never been written in any book so far, is far more important than any amount of money; and I've already gotten that part. The rest is icing; should it ever happen. >I believe these details rightfully >belong to Abductees and no one else should be making decisions, >as if we were children, on what we can and can't handle. I think you misunderstood what I stated. I NEVER said you weren't ready. _They_ said you weren't ready. Exactly what happened was: I, very slowly, followed IT, (the craft) out into this field. It kept going. I stopped. After continuing for a short bit it stopped and reversed its movement to come back in front of me. I knew they wanted me to follow them to go further out into the field to leave. That's what I wanted as well; not to take a trip, but to go _permanently_. But I decided that I wanted someone else to possibly see the craft land and then leave. I didn't want the whole affair to be an anonimous one. I wanted the world to know that they were real. When I telepathically projected the thought that they should come down _here_ in the field, close to the houses there response was, "They aren't ready yet." So, I replied to them that, "If they aren't ready yet then maybe I'm not ready yet also." That's when it began its departure, in a manner I've never read or heard of in any other encounter. It was a very slow and deliberate process that I could never possibly forget. >You may >write to me privately on this if you wish. I would like to know >where you practice. You first. Any statement made on the list I feel obligated to answer in the same context; unless of course it is of a personal nature. Anyway, I _live_ in Federal Way, Washington. I don't have a practice open here. And though I've taken the very minimal 4 hour aids awareness class necessary for state registration of hypnotists here I haven't yet paid the state's 90 dollar cut to make what I do, on the side, legal here. I have the forms for it. I just haven't gotten around to it yet. Oh. And one other thing. I almost forgot. Thanks for posting your personal childhood experiences to the list. It's very brave of you to do so. It's, by far, the best email I've read on the list so far, followed by the one about the family you posted. Next comes the actual sightings, which aren't so exciting after you've had your own close encounters. Fortunately I've never been abducted. I've only gotten halfway out of my body before, and felt myself coming back in once; nothing as exciting as actually getting out. Some say they have found out that they chose to do this (participate in the abduction process) before taking this incarnation. I never got a chance to get into that aspect with my one abductee client. I wonder if that's true for a large minority or even a majority of abductees. I won't go into my knowledge of spirits choosing incarnations here. That would make this email waay 2 long. Sincerely; Mike Beaver yoda@foxinternet.net http://web3.foxinternet.net/yoda/index.html ICQ # 15482206
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 24 UpDate: Germany 1990: Two RAF Phantoms Buzzed By UFO From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 07:47:46 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 21:08:42 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Germany 1990: Two RAF Phantoms Buzzed By UFO Source: "alt.ufo". Stig *** Subject: UFO sighting 1990 in Europe by RAF Phantoms Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 22:51:12 +0100 From: "Carl Cook" <carl@ccook46.fsnet.co.uk> Organization: Customer of Planet Online Newsgroups: alt.ufo ** Whilst serving at an RAF base in Germany in 1990 2 very concerned Phantom crews landed very shaken after being "buzzed" by a UFO , when trying to chase it it accelerated at such speed that they had no way of catching it. The crews were both pale and shaking and the next day the most senior had to go to give a report to AFCENT, i was on duty the night of this incident and know that they thought they saw something but never heard anymore about it.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 24 UpDate: Tarter: Far Side Of The Moon Near-Perfect Place For From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:35:13 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 21:10:18 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Tarter: Far Side Of The Moon Near-Perfect Place For Tarter's wish is among space.com's top ten reasons to inhabit outer space. You'll find links to the others at the end of this post. URL: http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/reason_06_000723.html Stig * Top 10 Reasons to Inhabit Outer Space By Yasha Husain Special to SPACE.com posted: 01:51 pm ET 21 July 2000 * 6. The SETI Effort The far side of the moon also offers scientists like Dr. Jill Tarter, director of research for the SETI Institute, a place to search for signs of extraterrestrial life without the distractions of Earth's radio waves getting in the way. Dr. Tarter commented that the moon's far side offers pristine space with no radio-frequency interference. She said it also has no atmosphere and a low magnetic background, making it a near-perfect place for optical observations, radio astronomy and SETI. "The far side versus the near side makes logistical support and infrastructure more difficult, but as the one place in the solar system that never has the Earth in its sky," commented Dr. Tarter. She believes the benefits outweigh the challenges. Peter Kokh agreed wholeheartedly with Tarter that the 2,000-mile (3,220-kilometer) thick bulk of the moon stops all radio-spectrum noise generated from Earth. (i.e. radio, TV, microwaves, radar, etc.). The only signals there will be the are natural static from the stars and artificial signals, if any, from other civilizations. Kokh also said the lava tubes on the moon are the ideal place to leave a time capsule. They are safe from all of Earth's natural disasters. The lunar lava tubes are 3 billion years old and on a stable body. These tubes are the best place in our solar system to conceal the remnants of our civilization -- i.e. signs of existence to be found by other beings visiting the moon, Kokh said. So, not only could we find signs of extraterrestrials in these lava tubes, he also suggests we leave our art, literature and history there for other forms of life to discover. Links: 1. To Secure a Future for Humanity 2. To Build a New Frontier 3. To Find New Energy Sources 4. To Build an Industrial Settlement On the Moon 5. Better Quality Images of the Universe -- and More of Them 6. The SETI Effort 7. Mining 8. Learning the History of Our Universe On the Moon 9. Environmental Benefits 10. Meeting the Challenge * �2000 SPACE.com, inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. You can read our *privacy statement
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 24 UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 03:18:32 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 21:12:44 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Velez >Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 10:37:00 -0500 >From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 15:32:14 -0400 >>From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Hi Gary, >>>The malpractice lawsuit process was started in May of '97, I >>>believe, and the KC lawyers group took statements from the dozen >>>abductees that signed on. >>This is a different case against Carpenter which ended up >>fizzling? >Ann and list, <snip> >>I'll assume these 12 are included in the 140 cases that >>Carpenter sold and that they were part of the 20 that already >>knew about the sale. >Yes, We don't even know ourselves all the people on the list and >have not decided if or how to proceed in contacting them as this >process itself causes a huge trauma to be generated. That's a blatant lie. Elizabeth Carpenter told me herself that she is in pssession of the list of abductees whose files John sold. Now you say in public that you "don't even know ourselves all the people on the list." Would you mind clarifying that for me please? According to Elizabeth Carpenter she has all the names. She also informs me that she has passed on copies of that list to some of the other abductees whose files were sold. When I asked her about it, she told me that she was not responsible for what others did with the list. That she had only sent it out to other abductees on the list itself. As far as I'm concerned, that's just six of one and half a dozen of the other. These people are having their privacy and anonymity screwed left and right. This isn't funny. I was going to be a good boy and keep my mouth shut but I'm going to say it anyway. The reason I haven't answered any of the copious e-mails that you have been sending me is because I was pissed at you for: 1. Sitting on your hands for all this time after you yourself received confirmation from the principles in the case that this transaction was a fact. All you needed to do was to report what you knew, not make judgement calls on it. Once you had confirmation in hand (the principles admitted it) there was no way they could sue you, or that it would hurt any civil actions being taken by the abductees. Why did this wait for three years for me to come along? How many others were hurt/violated in the interim no one knows. 2. I have gone out of my way and been very careful to keep the focus on the issue of 'what John did wrong' (the violation of the abductees rights to privacy and anonymity) and not on 'John' himself. Your posts are full of rhetoric, and rancor that is very personally directed at Carpenter himself. You are not very careful about maintaining a clear line between "reporting" and trying the man in public. _That_ is why I bailed out of all this. The second the focus shifted from "issue" to "individual" I checked out. You should have done "something" long before this Gary. Loooong before Johnny came along to take all the public heat. You arrive here at UpDates as a welcome guest but it wouldn't have been so 'easy' had you been the one to break the news. Do you have any idea the "Dixie Shuffle" I had to do to keep the thing on track? No, you sat back and read my posts for weeks sending me all kinds of 'compliments' and watching to see if I was going to be torn apart by Bigelow or Andrus or Carpenter. You gave me the lame excuse that you were waiting to send your report into MUFON before saying anything. So you leave me out there dangling in the wind as "bait" and you poke your head out when you hear the "All Clear." In New York we borrow a rural phrase to describe folks like that: Chicken sh*t. You have the list of names. So does Elizabeth. Don't BS the crowd. Keep it straight man. I _told you_ I'd be watching you like a hawk! You let me take the heat alone dude. I'm "in it" now. Don't deviate on this list one iota from what you have told me privately. I'll pull your covers hard. >Should everyone be notified? We don't even know the answer >to_this_ question as the problems this generates have never been >dealt with before on such a large scale. What do all of you >think? I think that if it was me, I would want to know. (Yesterday!) Take the focus off of Carpenter Gary. This isn't "Judge Judy's" TV Courtroom. It's an e-mail list. By mentioning Carpenter so often you are creating an atmosphere where the man will be tried in the court of "public oppinion." Regardless of how low I may personally judge John's actions, I'm a rabid American first. *** Innocent until found guilty in a court of law by a jury of ones own peers. _With_ legal counsel present for the defense. *** Most of this came out as a result of a divorce. There is always _two sides_ to the story. Carpenter needs to make some kind of statement. We should hear the man out before condeming him in an e-mail kangaroo court. Get back on track and discuss the issue of privacy and anonymity protection for all future witnesses. Leave John to the abductees involved, (if they want to pursue this legally it is their decision) and to God. It's not our place, or very wise, to try him here. By keeping 'his name' instead of the 'issue' at the forefront you hurt the cause much more than you help it. So what's up with the list Elizabeth has? Are you going to notify these people yourself? Instead of asking us what we think, why don't you tell what you are going to do with the list you have in hand. Sincerely, John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 24 UpDate: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video - Bowden From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:08:26 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 21:15:13 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video - Bowden >Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 04:08:34 -0400 (EDT) >From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 19:45:40 +0100 >>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >>Subject: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 20:41:52 -0400 (EDT) >>>From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com> >>>Subject: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>>Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:14:07 +0100 >>>>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >>>>Subject: Comment On Cheshire Video >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Tim, Did you manage to read past the first two lines of Jenny's post? The questions are relevant, Jenny wrote: >>My point was >>that not only have we not seen this missing film but we have not >>seen any meaningful evidence about it. Even here we don't get >>told what it is about this footage that turns what looks like a >>balloon on the bits that we have seen into such an important and >>unprecedented case on the parts that we have not. >>Surely you can answer that reasonable question. And also say why >>the media have chosen to use a piece of video in their coverage >>that I assume you to mean is untypical of the rest (otherwise if >>its all the same it wouldn't matter how much video we haven't yet >>seen). Why did they not use a sequence that justifies the >>strangeness of the evidence? And your reply: >True to form, a certain number of suspects are making up stories >about the witness and videographer of the recent Cheshire >Incident. >The facts are these; >1 - Karl Woods is _not_ a friend or colleague of Eric Morris. >2 - They have met in the past on maybe two occasions over five years. >3 - Before returning to Nursing (in a Management position), Eric >Morris used to work with Ufologist Rory Lushman in the Cinema >trade. Lots of people work in the cinema trade. Karl Woods had >an interest, three years ago, in holding a UFO-type event at the >cinema he works at. >4 - This is the basis for the smear and deception. >So, we await Randles'/Roberts apology! >This smear job is being done so that eyes will be deflected away >from other important issues. UFOIN is operating not from a >position of enlightened objectivity but from one of entrenched >and hostile skepticism whereby any case it does not "own" and >control is to be debunked in order to give it more profile >within Ufology. I don't see how the answer fits the question. Have another go..... Read the questions carefully and see if you can answer them this time. You mention 'deflected away', then why not guide our eyes to the part of the footage you think is so relevant? I trust there are others on this list who would like to hear these questions answered before this whole thing can be taken seriously. Dave.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 24 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 09:27:56 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 21:22:04 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Sandow >Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 15:38:07 +0100 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Outwith any debate about the files John Carpenter may have sold, >I would have though it likely that Bigelow would also have >requested copies of research material from Jacobs, Hopkins and >others. Bigelow's interest in the subject is already demonstrated >by connections to Jacobs and Hopkins research, via the Roper Poll >sponsorship. Bigelow asked Budd if he'd sell some of his files. Budd refused, to protect the privacy of the abductees he's worked with. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 24 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 10:21:21 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 21:24:28 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Sandow >Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 15:38:07 +0100 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>An article entitled 'Close Encounters With UFOs?', by Margaret >>Kirk, was published in 'The Times' (this seems to be an American >>magazine and not the London based newspaper) just prior to the >>release of David Jacobs' book 'Secret Lives'. >Kirk tells the story of Karen Morgan who, "began experiencing a >profound anxiety as an adult, related to a recurring dream of >having a strange being with big eyes, in her bedroom". >According to Kirk, Morgan contacted David Jacobs and >subsequently underwent 26 hypnotic regressions, which "unearthed >a lifetime of alien abductions". >Kirk writes, "'At first', she says, 'I thought about it all the >time. I was so afraid to go to sleep that I would go for months >without being able to sleep'. >'And then, I don't know how to describe this, but after six >months the anxiety receded. I can't prove that this is happening >to me, but I really have no choice but to believe it. I had to >integrate it into my life'." >Is it any wonder that someone who has experienced a recurring >dream about monsters and in an attempt to 'unlock the truth', >then subjected to being 'hypnotised' an astonishing 26 times by >an 'alien abduction researcher', plus sleep deprived for months, >would end up having to accept for some peace of mind that the >monsters or aliens must be real? >Maybe Kirk's article is inaccurate, or this is an exceptionally >'poor example' of how scientific, 'abductions' research truly is. >However, any research which relies on hypnosis can never of >course be remotely scientific and always capable of being a >significant catalyst to inflict the permanent alteration of a >subject's memory or perceptions. >Anyway, this is an aside and merely an observation about an issue >I do _not_ intend spending time discussing. Here again we have a frightened skeptic, someone who apparently doesn't know much about the abduction issues he raises, but -- despite his ignorance -- derides abduction researchers. I suspect he hasn't talked to David Jacobs, or corresponded with him. At the very least, I suspect he hasn't asked Dave about the issues he raises here. I suspect he hasn't talked to any of the abductees Dave works with. I suspect he hasn't listened to tapes, or read transcripts of Dave's hypnotic sessions. But of course he doesn't have to, because, as we can see from his post, he thinks he knows exactly what goes on in them. I suspect he hasn't read Dave's book "The Threat," because if he had, he'd have noticed the chapter in which Dave discusses precisely these issues about hypnosis. He'd know that Dave is aware of the problems with fantasies and confabulation. I suspect he doesn't know Dave's protocols for deciding which people to see. Because if he did know them, he'd know that Dave isn't likely to conduct hypnosis with people who tell him nothing more than that they've had recurring dreams. But of course the derisive Mr. Easton doesn't have to know these things, because, as he's told us, he's read a newspaper article. (In a publication, I might add, that he seems to know very little about.) And although he very kindly reserves the possibility that the article may be inaccurate, he nevertheless feels free -- if indeed the article is accurate -- to launch a scalding attack on Dave's work, based, for all we can see here, solely on what the newspaper reporter wrote. Evidently he can do that because -- without, apparently, having done much reading, and (I bet) without having graced this subject with any original research of his own -- he knows exactly what's going on. Maybe he's psychic. I think it would be helpful if abduction skeptics would care to include actual facts in their critiques. I think it would be helpful if they'd demonstrate that they know something about the subjects they're addressing. (It's possible, as Dennis has shown us, to know much about abductions and still know little or nothing about a particular area of the abduction debate.) I thnk it would be helpful if they'd pose their objections calmly, without derisive or (here's to you, Chris) cynical language. I think it would be helpful if they'd simply ask questions when they come across something they don't know about that puzzles or troubles them. If abduction skeptics do these things, I'll be happy to respond in the quieter mode I've used in these discussions up to now. I'll be delighted to engage in serious (underline that word!) debate about issues that often trouble me as well. But if skeptics are going to post derisive nonsense, why shouldn't I answer them in the same tone that they use? Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:09:31 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:00:32 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Sandow Since I've been so hard on abduction skeptics, let me cite some skeptical abduction writing that I respect. Peter Brookesmith's book, "Alien Abductions" Terry Matheson's book, "Alien Abductions" David Hufford's presentation at the 1992 abduction conference at MIT, available in the published proceedings. Also the paper by Richard Beal about the alleged missing fetus syndrome. (Not Robert Shaeffer's paper, delivered as the conference's official skeptic. That was the all too common superficial critique.) The most constructive contribution to the abduction debate remains Stuart Appelle's long and detailed paper from the Journal of UFO Studies, "The Abduction Experience: A Critical Evaluation of Theory and Evidence." It's available at: http://www.spacelab.net/~jvif/appelle1.htm It's not very comforting either to skeptics or to proponents of abduction reality. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Manso From: Luis R. Gonzlez Manso <lrgm@arrakis.es> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 10:23:37 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:09:40 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Manso >Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 12:12:35 -0400 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> Dear Greg and List, You wrote: >So it might actually be in the child's best interest to talk >to a responsible abduction investigator. <snip> >Besides...what if abductions are real? (A possibility, by >the way, that I think is often neglected in abduction debates.) >Then the children really do need help, and an abduction >investigator might be the only one who currently can either >provide it, or work closely with parents to help them do so. The problems is, as Hilary Evans pointed out several years ago, that the kind of help to give depends on the reality of abductions. If a person has been really raped he/she needs a kind of help absolutely different than the help he/she needs if the rape was imagined. And assuming the wrong option can create much more harm than good. In the usual approach to child abductees it seems to me that there is a profound navete. Children (even small children) are usually much more alert and intelligent than generally assumed. Just because their parents _say_ that they do not tell them about their own abductions and do not even discuss them in front of their children, that do not imply their ignorance. Infants are very good at detecting, for example, body language and emotions, and they are surely willing to become "one more in the family". My advice to worrying abductee parents: Tell them abductions are _not_ real and confort them. In the worst case they will have a more pleasant childhood. Yours, Luis R. Gonzlez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - From: Luis R. Gonzlez Manso <lrgm@arrakis.es> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 10:38:31 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:07:10 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - >Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 15:43:35 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Would you please be so kind as to offer _one shred_ of >evidence that Budd or Linda have perpetrated an >intentional hoax. That they purposely invented a lie and >that the case is a manufactured piece of fiction that was >intended to (intentionally) fool the public. Dear John and List, This is my first post, so please excuse any error (and my bad English). Two points. Unfortunately, even though many abductees are sincere people, some others could be liars. To say so about them must not be interpreted as a general accusation. I myself do not believe that abductions are physical events, but I will apply the idea of conscious frauds or hoaxes to only a few of them. I really do not know if Linda sincerely believe that she has been abducted any time, but there is a piece of evidence that points to a very strange situation if she really was abducted that fateful day of November 1989. I have already pointed it without receiving an explanation (and yes, I _do_ know the comments of Budd Hopkins about this): Let me quote from Hopkins' book (Witnessed, paperback edition, Pocket Books): p. 23: "The episode in which she apparently spoke in an 'alien tongue' was something I had never encountered before" p. 129: "Until Linda's hypnosis session I had never heard of an abductee being temporarily 'taken over' by the UFO occupants and behaving as if he or she were in complete sympathy with the aliens, wholly accepting their goals and techniques", p. 219: "this discovery of the aliens' interest in studying human relationships and eventual sexual 'bonding' from childhood through maturity is one of the most important contribution of the Linda Cortile case" Apart from the spectacular abduction in the middle of Manhattan on November 30th 1989, these were (according to Hopkins) the main novelties offered by Linda Cortile, specially the third. I had finally obtained (and read) a copy of a thriller published in April 1989 (_before_ the alleged abduction). I would summarize its story as follows: In fact, aliens are time travellers, coming from our future. They were genetic engineered Earth soldiers send to fight an interstelar war that they won. Their genetic stock comes from a very small group of survivors after almost all the life on Earth was destroyed by a �solar flare? So they had to come to their past with a double strategy: a) establish a sexual "bonding" from childhood between those who are to survive; b) collect genetic material from the rest of humanity in order to replenish their stock. They tell each abductee what he wants to hear, and some of the victims are in complete sympathy with the aliens. One of the main characters even speak their "alien tongue". This is too much of a coincidence. The three main points in Linda Cortile�s abduction were written several months before the alleged abduction. This is, at least, a clear evidence of a sociological influence or, in the worst scenario, proof of a hoax. That, being important, is not the main point of this message. As some of you may have already guessed, I am referring to 'Nighteyes' by Garfield Reeves-Stevens, the novel that Stefula, Butler & Hansen suggested as "a possible literary basis for elements of Linda�s abduction". Let me, once again, quote Hopkins (IUR March/April 1993 p. 12): "Now the truth is that apparently no one except Butler finds any similarity between the novel and Linda�s account (...) As is typical of its genre, 'Nighteyes' contains literally thousands of details (...) Apparently Butler sat down at this lurid smorgasbord and picked whatever details he thought might fit the case and ignored all the rest. But the biggest hole in his arguments is, as I�ve said, the complete absence in the novel of the core events of the Cortile case." Of course, in a simple way, it is truth that the similarities between both accounts depend on the level of detail. For instance, Richard and Dan are security and intelligence agents but the characters in the novel are FBI agents. Is that a suspicious parallel? It depends on who is reading. But what should have been evident both to sceptics and believers, if they really READ the novel, is the unavoidable coincidences not between events but between the novelties, the discoveries, offered by Linda Cortile and the main elements of the plot story. After reading the novel (with its interesting suggestions about memory-erasing gas, forensic investigations, etc.) nobody can legitimately deny that the 'never-before-heard-of contributions' of Linda case were already an important element in the plot of a mass-market thriller. Let me put it more clearly. The most amazing point made in Hopkins� book, the cornerstone of Linda Cortile�s case, was how the aliens had orchestrated the lifes of two abductees in order to reunite them one night in lower Manhattan for an apocalyptic message. The main surprise of Nighteyes� plot (besides the aliens being humans) is when two apparently independent abductees met again, in order to become the founders of a future race. How can anybody miss the paralelism? If the trees do not let them see the forest, Mr. Hopkins (and the other colleagues who agree with him after reading the novel) are not good investigators. But if they did see the forest but preferred not to say so, that is even worse. You choose. Luis R. Gonzlez Manso
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Cheshire Video - Skeptical View So Far From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 13:06:16 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:18:28 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Cheshire Video - Skeptical View So Far Hi, The ongoing Cheshire Video saga and its related issues is intensifying. I apologise for having to comment on every utterance from Tim Matthews and BUFOSC but there are very important ufological principles involved here and an awful lot of twisting, wiggling and weasel wording going on. This is a long post but if you are at all interested in this case please please bear with it, read it slowly and carefully consider all the issues and evidence presented in the light of statements put forward by Tim et al. I intend to make some general comments based on what has already happened and then look at the content to Tims latest two emails. So far all of Tim and BUFOSCs statements have been rant, hype and accusation, shying away and deviating from answering serious questions. Now, in his latest emails, he is saying he does not recognise UFOIN, or presumably anyone else who is asking difficult questions. Perhaps you all might like to consider why Tim does not wish to explain matters or answer pertinent questions. To start at the beginning, the original BUFOSC Press Release (written by Tim) does not *say one single thing* about the image on the video. Yet Tim claims no media manipulation. Prior to this case being made public UFOIN members were aware of it from a conversation Eric Morris had with Rory Lushman. During this conversation it was alleged that on the soundtrack of the video could be heard a scanner which was tuned into to Manchester airport. Voices on the scanner suggested a UFO was in the area and air traffic should be diverted. Yet this was not mentioned anywhere in the media reports, nor has Tim mentioned it in his emails to Updates, or answered questions asked about it. Yet in a private email to a ufologist Tim wrote: >Falling leaf downward motion at two points during >segment. Taken by local man with Canon UC-8000 Digital >Camcorder. Object clearly structured, not just blob or >BOL. >Filming pretty good, initially a little shaky but tripod then >attached Voices from scanner audible - ATC conversation >- civilian a/c in area near UFO? >Thanks, >Tim M. For some reason this fact has been censored from the Press and from public announcements within ufology. Why? As I have noted before this is suspicious in itself and I would suggest that either: * No one will ever hear about this aspect of the case again or * These new facts will be released to the media when the case flags. No media manipulation eh? This email is another instance of where the 'falling leaf motion' is mentioned again. Tim claims this is the witnesses phrase. Yet I wonder if they have the witness saying this on tape, prior to any of Tims utterances. As I've noted before this *exact* phrase was recently used in another UFO case, not forty miles from the Cheshire case, which is also under investigation by Tim and his colleagues. Both of these sightings are completely different, yet this archaic ufological term turns up twice. Yes, that makes me suspicious. I have mentioned this in an email to Tim and told him I think hoaxers are at work. Whether this is Tim and his colleagues or others I have no idea. Tim has in the past been accused of hoaxing UFO cases and has also been involved, as in this case, where the witness knew the investigator. Both Tim and Eric have been at pains to stress that the Cheshire video is _not_ a hoax. This is rather a vapid statement and I repeat once again, how do you know it's *not* a hoax when you have stated you don't know what it is? Read Tims material carefully and you will see that whilst he and BUFOSC are certain they dont know what the object is they are certain it is not a hoax. Again, highly suspicious. In a recent interchange of private emails with Tim, both of which have been highly abusive and accusatory about certain ufologists, he made the following curious statement: "no doubt certain people will be laughing on the other side of theirs sooner rather than later..." Odd eh? Now let's turn our quivering nerves to the 'supporters' Tim and co have invoked to bolster his ambiguous statements about the Cheshire case: Nick Pope, UFO Magazines Russ Callaghan and Paul Devereux. (from the Press Release) >But the researchers are not coming to any conclusions >yet; they have contacted the Ministry of Defence's Nick >Pope.................and Pope, who is actively assisting >BUFOSC 'actively assisting'. Conjures up all sorts of visions, doesn't it? In the interests of factual research I checked with Nick via his colleague Georgina Bruni. This is what she said. >>"I've spoken to Nick about the Cheshire video >>and he confirmed that he only played a minor role in this >>business. He took a couple of phone calls from Eric >>Morris, and with a view to helping take forward the >>investigation, he gave him some advice about who to >>contact and what sort of questions to ask. While he was >>happy to help in this way and has asked to be kept >>informed, he's not seen the video and has therefore >>expressed no view on what it shows." minor role, not seen the video appear to be the key phrases here. The facts are somewhat different to the inference, no? I also find it nothing short of mind boggling that Tim is now courting Nick Popes blessing when for the past three or four years he has been attacking him at every turn especially regarding Popes alleged abduction. This about face seems to have only occurred when this video has needed official validation The second supporter was UFO Magazines Russ Callaghan, who is alleged to have said the video was: "Best footage I have ever seen" Despite numerous requests to Russ to comment on this he has chosen not to. This, I strongly suspect, is because he didn't say those words, and nor does he believe that this video is of much interest. I await to stand corrected if Russ stands by what he said. But Ill ask once again: * Did you make this claim about this video Russ? * If so on what basis and how does it differ from the hundreds of video clips extensively marketed by UFO magazine? * Will this video soon be joining UFO magazines videos for sale? On Friday 21st July UFO Magazines Graham Birdsall appeared on a BBC Radio show. When he was asked about this footage at no point did he quote his employee, Russ Callaghans alleged statement. In fact Graham seemed to play any the case down. As Graham is obviously fully conversant with most things ufological and with Russ I am sure if Russ *really* did allege the video was "the best footage" ever then Graham would have trotted this out on the airwaves. Comments, Russ or Graham? On 23 July Tim posted the following message. >Dear All, >The debate on the Cheshire Incident is moving forward. Well no its not. For the simple reason that _nothing_ new has been said since the original press release. In fact it is going backwards because the content of the Press Release and of much of Tims defence of the case is rapidly disintegrating. >The British UFO Studies Centre position is clear; >1 - We are interested in receiving intriguing video >footage and investigating it, even though there is often >little we can do to investigate! >(Wind speeds have very little effect I venture to add!) But by Tim's own bizarre admission, "(Wind speeds have very little effect I venture to add!)", they are not investigating this case. The Cheshire video has merely been disingenuously presented and promoted at the expense of credible ufology. Which is what this debate is all about: motivations and methods. >Analysis costs are very high. Offers of assistance have >been welcomed and responded to. Well yes, they are. Even more reason to keep your powder dry until you have something worth trumpeting. All UFO groups receive numerous videos each year. The reason they choose not to hype them to the media is because whilst they will generate money and fame, in the long run it is counter productive to the study of UFOs. >That is why we were happy for the mass media to run >with the story. Disingenuity again. The mass media didnt run with the story they were force fed it! And the story they were given bears little relation to the real story. But as journalist Mike Hallowell has commented on another list: >>As a professional columnist and writer with >>considerable experience, I can tell you that the media >>will promote what the media wish to promote, whether it >>is rubbish or not. Which is sadly true but puts the onus even more on Tim/BUFOSC to take some responsibility for their actions in there first place! >Not only might we receive a prosaic explanation >from the public, but also further material of note, corroborating >testimony, new cases and so on. You have received many suggestions as to the possible prosaic nature of the image. It behaves pretty much exactly like a small balloon does. Yet you have openly stated you are not interested in looking at wind speeds! Have you checked the incidence of fairs/fetes etc in the vicinity vis a vis the wind speed for instance? >There was no media manipulation at all! We're just >Ufologists after all - not Prime Minister Blair's Spin >Doctors! C'mon! The Press Release and your subsequent statements, Tim, have been masterpieces of spin doctory. The media was manipulated with false and empty statements and the same is being attempted within ufology. >In my case it is true that I believe that some UFO cases >are the result of the operation/testing/evaluation of secret >military aircraft. I have never ruled out the >earthlights/BOL theory and have spoken with Paul >Devereux and others about this in great detail. As with Russ Callaghan and Nick Pope we are contacting Paul to see how true that statement is. Note that Paul Devereux is a UFOIN list member, yet Tim claims he does not recognise UFOIN. More correctly he only chooses to recognise those who support or offer no resistance to his sweeping claims. Surely contentious claims demand contentious questioning? >concerned but don't feel that I have to justify any >personal belief to Jenny Randles or UFOIN >debunkers whose "authority" on these matters we do not recognise. >She, and her colleagues, sometimes appear to be more >interested in investigating witnesses and investigators - not >UFO evidence. Often it is only by investigating witnesses and investigators that he truth is arrived at Tim. And as you have offered not one whit of evidence which can be followed up, the witness, the investigators, the relationship between them, their past and present actions and motives are all which _can_ be investigated. >In terms of the Winter Hill Incident, a very >strange case dating back to last November, we invited Andy >Roberts to assist but he refused. He says he did this because it > was "a hoax" and will be proved to be such. He says that >"somebody is pulling our chain". Who? Perhaps he knows >something that we don't. If so, perhaps he will enlighten >us...? The Winter Hill cased is yet another case from the Lancs/Cheshire area which has as its conduit Tim Matthews and/or BUFOSC. Again an unseemly fuss was made about a case which is predicated _entirely_ on one mobile phone call. _Nothing_ else. Hardly strange, is it? I was invited to become involved by Tim - more than once a day, for over a week. The smell of cod was in the air and I declined. Since then UFOIN team have looked into the research done by Tim/MAPIT and it is deeply flawed. We will be happy to post these findings if anyone is interested. But I would suggest that becomes the subject of a separate thread so it can be dealt with in depth. Interestingly, when neither ufology nor the media could be persuaded there was anything of interest in the Winter Hill case, and the conference it preceded had passed, little has been heard of it since. Tim's involvement and promotion of cases such as the above, the Cheshire case and the other Lancashire case intrigue us as they all follow a similar pattern which I find worrying. I'd like to put on record that I have been one of Tim's staunchest supporters over the past few years, a contributor of large amounts of material to his book (which I like) and defended him against the Larry O'Hara attacks when his alleged past as a Nazi sympathiser was raised. (for evidence see acknowledgements in UFO Revelation, my Fortean Times columns, issues of Armchair Ufologist, archives of UFO UpDates). However Tims actions and modus operandi within ufology have given me such cause for concern that I am deeply concerned about his motives These concerns are widely shared by many well known UK ufologists. Tims other email of 23 July merits comment on its inconsistencies. >Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 04:08:34 -0400 (EDT) >From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Comment On Cheshire Video >Dear All, >True to form, a certain number of suspects are making up >stories about the witness and videographer of the recent >Cheshire Incident. >The facts are these; >1 - Karl Woods is _not_ a friend or colleague of Eric >Morris. Unfortunately the 'facts' are rather different. Eric, in his former incarnation as a cinema worker often spoke about Carl Woods to his colleagues. So much so in fact that Mr Woods was referred to at least twice in Eric's then journal, 'Intelligence'. For instance: >>"With all the new films coming out this year, showing >>paranormal or alien activity, we have decided to do >>reviews of future films. All the previews are courtesy of >>Mr. Karl Woods, Manager of the Regal twin Cinemas in >>Northwich. If you would like to find out which films >>are now showing at the Regal, contact Mr. K. Woods at >>this number," .................. and >>"Thanks must go to Carl of the Northwich >>Regal Cinema. He is one of the few approachable cinema >>managers, who also holds an interest in ufology. >>Although mostly, and obviously, a film buff, he has given >>generously to BUFOSC over the past months." Note: holds an interest in ufology. I think that's sufficient to tag Mr Woods as a friend and colleague of Eric. >So we wait Randles'/Roberts apology! I can hardly apologise for factual information Tim. Tim Matthews, Press Officer, British UFO Studies Centre. So, the bleat goes on. We are like the mushrooms of aphorism - kept in the dark and fed bullshit. The facts of these cases and their context may be unpalatable to the more naive ufologists who may not believe that this debate is uneccessary. I and the UFOIN team believe that any ufological claim, past or present, is open to challenge. When a case has been sold to ufologists and to the media as something it is patently not then even more so. When there is a surrounding context of other hyped, unsubstantiated cases anything less than close interest by ufologists would be unprofessional. To close Id like to offer what I think is a salient quote William Hartmann's article on UFOs and Perception in the Condon Report on UFOs: "Many writers in our culture, from fanatics and hypocrites to sincere reporters, are not, after all, committed to complete investigation and understanding of the subject, but to telling and selling a good story. Unfortunately there is a selection effect: if a "flying saucer" story is investigated too completely, and is found to be a misperception or a hoax, its interest and sales value are reduced. Examples of journalists' distortion and slanting, conscious or unconscious, abound: misinformed amateurs quoted as authorities, repetition of hearsay evidence, and naive selection of data are examples of such dubious reporting. " Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Weber From: Bill Weber <wweber1@sc.rr.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 14:52:12 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:34:34 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Weber >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:19:31 -0400 (EDT) >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? >To: updates@sympatico.ca >This is being done over and over in every Department of >anything, everywhere - on subjects at least as personally >dangerous as abduction - and performed pretty effectively by >hungover kids to boot. Why _can't_ abduction research guarantee >anonymity so things like that won't happen, and still share >results? Everyone else is doing it. I don't get it. What is >it that's _not_ being said? >Most likely, Bill, it has little to do with the degree of >difficulty of the act of maintaining non disclosure. It has to >do with money. In the face of growing debt, not being able to >handle one's financial obligations and finding it more and more >difficult to manage - selling what you have is a simple >solution. Selling it to someone with deep pockets, such as >Bigelow, who is in the business of researching the phenom, is >even easier." Hi, Jimmy, I didn't intend the above to be directed toward anyone in particular, most especially _not_ Carpenter and Bigelow... rather, it was intended as just a general sort of comment. (In my state, we believe in letting the accused have a final word before the stoning.) Sharing abduction data _could_ be done, and generally speaking, it isn't. I was wondering "why" out loud. If abduction research was handled more traditionally, much of the motivation for that sort of sale would be gone. It just seems to me that if abduction research wanted to be taken more seriously, they'd start attempting to use the traditional approaches - methods and protocols that have already been used and tend to work. This seems to me like nothing but common sense, yet it's rarely mentioned. They really don't have to break any new ground. Lots of "uncomfortable" things are studied every day - by people with half the talent. I'd hate to think, (and prefer not to), that it is a question of money. It seems like there are easier and better ways for these guys (Jacobs, Hopkins, et al.) to make an extra buck - especially by doing things that enhance rather than possibly derail or threaten their careers. No, their motivation seems altruistic... I just don't understand the footdragging by the leaders in this research. As long as the leaders continue this, the opportunity for abuse will always be there. Best, Bill
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:50:49 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:38:58 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart Hello Elizabeth, Gary, All, I would like to make a very public request for a copy of the list of names and addresses of the 140 abductees whose files were sold. I am asking you Elizabeth and Gary because both of you have told me repeatedly that you have this list. It's time to notify these people that their privacy and anonymity may have been seriously compromised. They need to be able to decide for themselves whether they wish to pursue the matter or ignore it. The point is; it is _their_ choice. They cannot make any decision if they do not know. I will get together with Greg Sandow and EBK and see if we can't come up with a draft for a letter to send these folks. One that will not 'alarm' them or freak them out. Although I'm not quite sure if such a thing is possible under the circumstances. Please, submit a copy of the list to me via e-mail. I give you my word that the matter will be handled responsibly and with the continued well being of the recipients uppermost in my mind. Enough procrastinating. Let's get this done. Awaiting your response. John Velez -- ______________________________________________ A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center - www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm jvif@spacelab.net "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ______________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Filer's Files #29 -- 2000 From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 17:45:12 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:49:04 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Filer's Files #29 -- 2000 Filer's Files #29 -- 2000, MUFON Skywatch Investigations George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern July 25, 2000, Majorstar@aol.com, Sponsored by Electronic Arts Web Site at: http://www.filersfiles.com.-Chuck Warren Webmaster. UFO ACTIVITY IS INCREASING AROUND THE WORLD: Reports are coming in from Europe, South America, Australia and the US of a moderate increase in activity despite solar storms. CARL SAGAN WAS AN EARLY BELIEVER IN ET In 1962, I had a sighting of a large UFO over England, so I attempted to read books that supported my beliefs in the likelihood of extraterrestrial life. A few years later in 1966, Carl Sagan co-authored an exciting book called Intelligent Life in the Universe with Russian astronomer I. S. Shklovskii. It provides extraordinary evidence and surprising scientific arguments for extraterrestrial life. Later his statements were more pessimistic, and may have reflected his desire to be politically accepted in the scientific community. Mutual friends have assured me that he felt there was life on Mars, and the whole universe may be teaming with it. Sagan discussed the amazing evidence in Sumerian writing claiming that extraterrestrial intelligence came to Earth and provided advanced education to mankind. The following quotes from Sagan and Shklovskii are pertinent now that water and possible life have been found on Mars: "With the numbers we have discussed, it seems possible that the Earth has been visited by various Galactic civilizations many times (possibly 10 [every 10,000 years], during geological time.) It is not out of the question that artifacts of these visits still exist--although none have been found to date--or even that some kind of base is maintained within the solar system to provide continuity for successive expeditions. Because of weathering and the possibility of detection and interference by the inhabitants of the Earth, it might have appeared preferable not to erect such a base on the Earth's surface. " The Moon seems one reasonable alternative site for a base. Forthcoming high-resolution photographic reconnaissance of the Moon from space vehicles--particularly, of the back side--might bear these possibilities in mind. Agrest has independently made a similar conjecture, as has the Anglo-Ceylonese science writer, Arthur C. Clarke. The cosmic visitors would probably reason that by the time man had developed the technology to explore the far side of the Moon, he would also have attained a certain limited degree of advancement and might be called civilized. Contact with such a base would, of course, provide the most direct check on the possibility of fairly frequent interstellar spaceflight. The rate of technical advance of our civilization is very great. It is possible that an extraterrestrial society or federation of such societies might want to contact an emerging technical civilization as soon as possible, perhaps to head off a nuclear annihilation - one possible consequence of intensive technological development-or perhaps for other reasons. Intelligent Life in the Universe, Page 461 Editors' Note: The above scenario of contact may have occurred as predicted by these scientists. It is not a coincidence that the Soviet Union gave up Communism and became our ally to avoid nuclear war. Further it is not generally realized that the Viking Lander tests for life on Mars were very controversial and that they were based on the false assumption of no water on Mars. Perhaps extraterrestrials live under the surface of planets or moons and are not easily seen by our satellites. It will probably surprise you to learn that genetically altered tobacco is grown 200 feet underground in greenhouses in White Pine, Michigan in an abandoned copper mine. There are advantages underground, such as no pests, no disease and warm temperatures for 365 days a year. There is not even danger from nuclear weapons or meteors. Perhaps we will only see barrem landscape until we start drilling beneath the surface. LIGHTS GLOW ON MOON Astronomers regularly report they observe various lights on the moon. French astronomer Audouin Dollfus of the Observatoire de Paris claims to have witnessed clouds of dancing lights inside the 136 km across Langrenus Crater in 1992 with a 39-inch Meudon telescope. It has taken until now to publish his findings. On 30 December, he noticed a series of glows on the floor of the large crater Langrenus. They were definitely not there the day before. Professor Dollfus observed them for several days before they faded. Each time he returned to the telescope he noticed that the shape of the glows had changed. He believes that the glows are due to escaping gas that lifts dust above the lunar surface into sunlight. Some lunar observers have expressed surprise that such a mist should have been seen above Langrenus, which was not regarded as a prime candidate for lunar changes. Thanks to BBC News Online science editor Dr. David Whitehouse. NEW JERSEY ORANGE DISCS LONG BEACH ISLAND -- On July 23, 2000, at approximately 11:00 PM while at a beach house on I witnessed three orange disk-like objects flying north to south over the ocean. There was no clouds in the sky and lights were grouped ahead of the other, which trailed behind. They were traveling faster than a plane could. The lights were slightly smaller than the nail on your pinky finger when your arm is held extended. They were visible for less than a minute, possibly 30 seconds, and then disappeared. While looking on the internet this afternoon I read about a similar sighting from 1997, twenty miles north of Atlantic City. If there is a documented explanation for this type of sighting I would appreciate if your could let me know. Thanks to Thomas Baudo Eyebalz ILLINOIS HUGE CRAFT ATTEMPTS TO LAND DOWNERS GROVE -- Beth Skerrett sent an e-mail stating, "I am writing to you about an occurrence outside our corporate building where I am the admin for the management office. Everything I have to say in second hand, I have not seen anything myself but, at about 8:00 PM on July 12, 2000, the security guard of our sister building called the security guard of my building and asked, "What are all those lights about?" The sister building is north of us, and the lights were apparently to the south of the building. The guard went out to the south parking lot and saw "a huge object that was trying to land in the parking lot". He said, "It was as long as eight buses, and almost as high." He said it was a dark silver/blue with a goldish strip across it, and underneath looked concave. He said, "The UFO hovered over the parking lot for almost a minute without making any sound." At that time some of our tenants came out because this object was right outside their window. Even the entire cleaning crew saw it as well. Then he said, "The object, this 'silver ball', shot up into the air and off to the west moving so fast it was hard to track." It appeared to pause over the town of Aurora, about 15 miles away for several seconds before departing. What is odd is that none of the tenants will talk, report to the police or the news media. I wonder how many things like this happen, and people just see it, and then go on their way? Thanks to Beth Skerrett beth_anne99@hotmail.com Editor's note: We figure we are lucky to obtain 10% of the sighting reports. By coincidence I spent part of last week in Downers Grove with a beautiful view of the area, and did not see a thing. Flying home to New Jersey, I had a red UFO flying formation with us, I'm sorry to report it was a star was hiding in and out of the clouds making it look like I had company. TEXAS UFO AS BIG AS FOOTBALL FIELD GRAHAM, YOUNG COUNTY -- A friend and co-worker had a sighting northwest of Fort Worth on Thursday, July 13, 2000, at 10:28 PM. His name is Jerry Fox and he is a Corrections Officer. Both he and his wife were witness to a very large UFO hovering about 2000 feet off the ground northeast of their home. He said that he was laying on the couch watching TV when he became aware of light filling his living room. He called to his wife to go outside with him. They observed white lights, perfectly round with half-moons on the side, which would indicate that the object was round in shape. The size was as big as a football field. He jumped in his car to get a closer look, but about that time, it vanished. The next day, Jerry was visibly shaken. It had been only the day before that we had been discussing UFOs and he was clearly a skeptic, giving me sideways glances when I mentioned that I had seen several of them in years' past. Thanks to Donna J. Bullock djb0898@wf.net (Donna B.) COLORADO LONG YELLOW CYLINDER THORNTON -- I was out having a cigarette break at work on July 6, 2000. Noticing the colors at the beginning of the sunset around 8:30 PM, I noticed a bright yellow, almost white object coming out of the western sky. Knowing that this was probably the reflection of the sun on an east bound jet. It was partially cloudy, but mostly clear sky. What began to seem strange to me, was that NONE of the other passenger jets were "reflecting" the sunset. When I took a closer look this object did not have any wings visible. It traveled east in a straight line but at a slightly slower speed than the other jets who appeared to be passing it headed for Denver. All through this time, no wings were seen at all. There was no variance in the color. It maintained a bright yellow, almost white "glow". As it passed over head, I still did not see any wings, and it made no noise as it passed above the traffic on I-25 to my west. This was when I saw that the middle of the cylinder was narrower than the ends, as if it was two cylinders, that had a "docking area" that met in the middle. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director NUFORC www.ufocenter.com NEVADA UFO CAUSES FOG RED ROCK CANYON - The witness reports that on July 7, 2000, my wife and I saw a satellite fly over so, I said, "If we check the time, we can see it again tomorrow night." The car's clock read 9:21 PM As I looked up I saw a bright slice of light in a perfect triangle and shouted, "What the hell is that? The light was about 1/4 mile in the sky, just over the mountain closest to us about three miles in front of us. The source of the light was about 10 feet around that pointed straight down with a sharp crispness to it. It was sweeping the ground traveling from southwest to northeast coming toward us. The light swept the ground in about 1/2 mile swath. The light was sharp unlike normal lights. That is, it didn't travel past the sharp edge of the triangle shape pointing toward the ground. There was a greenish blue glow to the east of it about 60 feet from what appeared to be a craft. The glow appeared like phosphorus in the sky. All we could see of the craft was a thick blackness in an oval saucer shape. It looked as though from the bottom of the craft to the bottom edge of the light that it would be about 6 feet. The light was out over the front edge of the craft, pointing down. The blackness behind and under the light looked to be about 50 feet around with a deep saucer dropping below the craft like a belly. The light was a perfect triangle as it swept the ground. I it was not like a spot light that has an oval shape on the ground. The light was extremely bright white and we could see the ground where it was pointing as if noon day sun. The saucer seemed to be creating some kind of fog that radiated from the craft. It didn't blast away from the craft and the light left no trail in the fog it was creating. The valley behind it was glowing a bright white and we could clearly make out the shape of the mountain. The light behind the mountain appeared to be from another source and shown like white sun rays out of the valley. The light continued toward us very slowly with absolutely no sound when it got to within half of a mile of us it was gone in the blink of the eye. Five minutes after the craft left, all of Red Rock Canyon filled with fog. The phosphorus greenish blue stayed for 23 minutes and the ground where it had been appeared to show brighter. It was like the sun came out for a while. We could see the field in front of us and the side of the mountain that was behind it. This light faded as the greenish blue glow faded until it was gone. Ten minutes after the craft left, a helicopter flew over making a loud racket that made us realize that the saucer had made no noise at all. The temperature was 96. We sat there for another 1/2 hour, after all signs of it had left and the fog remained. We pulled out of our spot and drove over to the fog and it was completely gone. It took us less than 5 minutes to get to where the fog had been. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC. Editor's Note: Many UFOs seem to effect the weather and visibility. We have had some cases where ponds have frozen indicating the propulsion system takes heat or produces cold air. Fog is a large mass of water vapor condensed to fine particles at or just above the earths' surface. The Puerto Rico report indicates UFOs take large quantities of water on board. The sighting in Turkey below also effected visibility. UK CROP CIRCLES David Kingston writes, "There has been an increase in UFO activity this year since the arrival of the Crop Circles in the UK. I have received many reports of "balls of light" that have appeared over fields prior to some of the formations occurring and also some that have appeared after the formations have been formed. Some fields are made by hoaxers, but when we interviewed the "hoaxers" they saw this strange phenomena while making a formation. These are not natural "Earth Lights." First, they do not have the same characteristics and second, they appear to be intelligently controlled. Last night at 9:15 PM (GMT) my wife and I were driving home on a clear evening. I noticed the sun reflecting off several aircraft, when my wife pointed out an object traveling at 3500 feet. I pulled the car off the road to watch and it was the size of my thumb nail at arm's length. It was glowing and then dimming moving far too fast for even a military plane. Suddenly it stopped in mid air, glowed extremely bright and then vanished. Thanks to David Kingston davidkingston@cropcircles.screaming.net) http://users2.50megs.com/cropcircles/index.htm OREGON DISK TUALATIN -- On June 17, 2000, under a clear sky at around 4:00 PM, I had stopped my westbound car in the left turn lane at 90th Court and Tualatin Highway, and while waiting for the signal to change, I observed a silvery disc shape in my line of sight behind the traffic signal moving southward at about 20 degrees above the horizon. The object was the size of a pencil eraser held at arm's length, and moved only 2 to 3 inches, using the same measure, when it appeared to blink out after only a short time. I am a 51-year-old welder with more than six prior sightings, some in the local area and others in the East dating back several years. WASHINGTON EVERETT -- Ted Demott wrote, "I live in Everett to the east I saw a light of multiple colors flashing on July 18, 2000. I got my telescope and looked at it on the horizon at 11:00 PM. It looked the same as it did with the naked eye. It slowly flew up and down three times and flew southwest leaving a vapor trail that could be seen by the moonlight. Then it stopped before picking up speed flying faster then any thing I have ever seen. While it was moving, the colors turned to white and dimmed. I got my camcorder but could not find it. I called 911 and they referred me to the FAA. I am a pilot so I called my weather briefer who referred me to Kenny Young 206 722-3000 who I reported it. I do not believe in UFO's but this was something that was very strange. Jetski2184@hotmail.com Ted. Thanks to Kenny Young at ufo@fuse.net and Ted Demott jetski2184@hotmail.com PUERTO RICO SAUCER TAKES ON WATER VIEGUES -- Amidst the mysteries of a U.S. Naval base in Puerto Rico are strange reports of UFO and alien activity. Puerto Rican Ufologist Jorge Martin interviewed Angel Encarnacion, a Vieques fisherman, who said that "One night, while fishing out at sea south of the Navy's shooting range, and east of Vieques, we saw in the distance a really big and shining light. Getting closer, we saw that it a huge round saucer object with lots of lights turning on and off all around the ship." "On the bottom middle there was a really big green light, aimed at the ocean's surface," said Encarnacion. "It wasn't more than 100 feet above the ocean. What shocked me most was seeing the object absorb water from the ocean. You could actually see a big volume of water rising and entering the object. You could not see any fish or anything else in the water going up." Throughout the operation, he said, there was no sound. He and his crew saw strange activity on another night, "a shiny green light rose from the bottom of the ocean," and suddenly disappeared as they heard "the sound of water falling into the ocean nearby," but with no object in sight. They heard--but did not see- something rising in the night sky. Several teenage marine cadets reported seeing "some very strange little dark men who were very fast and ran speedily from one place to another." The entities were no more than four feet high, skinny, with long arms and large, egg-shaped heads. They spotted them jumping into the lagoon and disappearing under the water. The cadets claimed they have seen blue-white spheres that vary in size, from four to eight inches in diameter entering the lagoon. Thanks to UFO Roundup www.ufoinfo.com. and Sally Suddock SHnSASSY1@aol.com VENEZUELA SPECTACULAR SIGHTING FILMED CARACAS - On Saturday, July 22, 2000, an object of considerable size, nearly transparent (given the volume of light it is emitting) was filmed starting at 18:28 PM for more than thirty minutes. It appears silvery in color, with a wide upper dome and a fin on its lower hull shaped like an inverted cone. A compass reading places it between 300 and 305 degrees, located to the left of Simon Bolivar University but above Fuerte Tiuna. Using the clouds as a screen, whose luminosity is hard to observe without wearing dark glasses. It is hovering with an almost imperceptible balancing motion, but one would say it is completely motionless. More information to come. Thanks to the Institute of Hispanic Ufology and Martha Rosenthal in Venezuela UNITED KINGDOM" BEST EVER UFO FILM" CAPTURED CHESHIRE -- Philip Mantle reports that Researchers at the Cheshire- based British UFO Studies Centre (BUFOSC), have been shocked by the emergence of a new and remarkable video film of an anomalous object captured by a Northwich man on Sunday afternoon, July 9, 2000. The man saw the strange object in the sky at around 2:00 PM and asked his wife to bring his video camera. He was able to capture what experts at the BUFOSC say is the "best ever UFO film." The witness also recorded traffic using his frequency scanner which clearly indicates the presence of civilian passenger aircraft in the immediate vicinity at that time. There is a suggestion that aircraft may have been diverted away from the area. BUFOSC believes that this raises urgent issues relating incident over nearby Stoke-on-Trent, where witnesses report seeing a UFO being chased by three aircraft and a Chinook helicopter. There are a number of major military exercises currently underway in the UK. Eric Morris - BUFOSC Director - and Tim Matthews, well- known researcher have both been amazed by the quality of the images, the clarity of the material and the object itself. "The best-known case was the Manchester Near-Miss in January 1995, when two airline pilots made an official report to the Civil Aviation Authority about a wedge- shaped object that shot past their plane while on approach to Manchester International. Morris, Matthews and Pope, are assisting BUFOSC with its inquiries, all believe that UFOs are of Extreme Defense Significance. The UFO is similar to ones captured on film at the Nellis Test Range, home to Area 51 in the Nevada Desert. Checks with Manchester Air Traffic Control, the MOD and other official bodies are continuing. Thanks to Philip Mantle. pmquest@dial.pipex.com UK SIGHTINGS MILTON KEYNES -- A Mr. (name on file) observed a white- coloured round object at high altitude on the of July 17, 2000, at around 2.45 pm. The witness in watched the object speed across the sky, leaving no vapour trail, in just 5 seconds. His father observed the object as well which was lost from view when it went behind some clouds. Mr. NB (name on file) watched 15 light colored objects in formation on Sunday June 18, from his home near Kettering in Northamptonshire. He was having a barbecue with several family member between 6 and 7 PM when the sighting took place. All those present also observed the objects. Mr. NB is an experienced glider pilot. Philip Mantle, pmquest@dial.pipex.com , www.beyondroswell.com FINLAND STATISTICS 1999 The UFO Research of Finland gathered about 100 sighting reports in 1999. It was an average year (1998 was quiet with 34 reports). As usual there were a couple of hundred UFO related articles in newspapers and magazines. Of the 100 cases about 20 came from central Finland around November 13,and 14, 1999. Multiple witnesses reported 6 balls of light that flew in formation over central Finland. On the internet there were stories about an encounter between a UFO and a Finnish air force jet. But that story has never been confirmed and is likely false information. Have a nice summer! Thanks to Ilkka Serra, MUFON- Finland. mufonhq@aol.com ilkka.serra@pp.inet.fi. MALTA CONTROLLED CRAFT The witness was on his roof when he noticed a star moving very fast at 8:15 PM on June 5, 2000. Moving north a light was switching on and off. When it changed the direction of travel, it would switch off after it started in the new direction and come back on when it was about to change course. The stops were at approximately the same distance from one another. It changed direction about every five degrees. I am sure it was not a satellite as the path was not smooth but changed very abruptly each time and it was switching on and off. Nine years ago, at about 11:00 local time (UTC+1hour) I happened to glance up and saw a cigar shaped object which was about 1500-2000 meters up, traveling in a north direction. The object was grayish, had no wings, fins or stabilizers like rockets, but simply looked like a cigar traveling without any visible sign of any propulsion system or noise and with no fire, fumes or vapor trails Its hard to estimate its size, but it appeared to be very big and I would say it was more than 80 meters long and 18 meters in diameter. The island of Malta is about 95 km south of Sicily. Thanks to Giuliano Marinkovicc - Jimmy (AGETI_ Croatia, 9a4ag@clarc.org TURKEY UFO RESIDUE COVERS CAR MARMARA SEA -- Oz Seydali writes, "On the night of July 8, 2000, my family and I encountered a UFO 15 kilometers from Ezen while driving to Vakifkoy in Northwestern Turkey. We were on vacation on the Marmara Sea when we saw a UFO hovering over farm land about five kilometers from our car. We approached the UFO that was about the same size of the full moon and enveloped by its own light from the bottom up. Suddenly, it flashed a bright blue burst of light emanating from the bottom portion that extended to the top and disappeared. After this happened the stars were not visible for about three seconds. Ten minutes after the event a residue of some kind completely covered our car and I was forced to bring the vehicle to a complete emergency stop. The windows were rolled down but, there was no smell just a strange residue that evaporated without a trace in a few seconds as if it were never there. After arriving to our destination. I asked a local neighbor if she had seen anything odd in the sky? She said, "She had indeed and asked if I knew what it was?" There was a lot of confusion as to what had transpired since most of the people did have a clear view. They had seen the bright illumination which baffled them. The area was experiencing extreme dry heat and the craft left moisture on the dry grass and dirt. In the car with me were my mother and six family members saw the craft. Thanks to Oz Seydali ozs@home.com . AUSTRALIA US ORANGE FIREBALLS N.S.W - Australia, the National Reporting Center and Eastern MUFON have been receiving reports of fireballs in recent weeks. According to Barry Taylor a spectacular fireball was seen over Australia on July 16, 2000. Peter Davenport reports that NUFORC received a report Monday morning of an orange fireball, which was seen over Northern California at about 10:00 PM on Sunday night, July 16, 2000. Peter writes, "I have no way of knowing whether there is any relationship between the US and Australian events but. NUFORC has been receiving a significantly large volume of reports than is normal for us." Underscoring the apparently real nature of some of the reports is the fact that two seasoned UFO investigators in Glendale, Arizona, succeeded in videotaping on both July 12 and 13 a very strange, strobing red light in the vicinity of Phoenix. They were able to photograph it from two vantage points simultaneously, and preliminary estimates suggest that the object was on the order of 40-50 statute miles from their location, even though it could be seen plainly with the naked eye. Yesterday, we received a report from a woman in Texas, who asserts that she and other witnesses observed 6 or 7 red lights streaking to the west over Texas on July 12, just a few minutes before the sighting over Phoenix. Cordially, Peter Davenport, Director National UFO Reporting Center ctor@ufocenter.com, Hotline: 206-722-3000 Thanks to Peter and Barry for their great work. ALIEN GRAPHICS The Foreign Technology Division/Wright Patterson AFB, "Alien Graphics ?" The graphic images came from a series of approximately 20. These illustrations and/or graphics of an "alien" autopsy where originally broadcast in October 1988 on a 2 hour show called "UFO Cover-up - Live" by Seligman Productions. After seven++ years of checking on the authenticity of these illustrations here is what has been found: Please see, http://home.earthlink.net/~rcollins632/reports/ftd_wp_alien_graphics.htm SPECIAL OFFER for readers of "Filer's Files" Camelot Computers is offering a one year free domain name with a year of web hosting. Prices for hosting start as low as $9.99 a month. Camelot can get your site off the drawing board. Visit them at www.camelotcomputers.com or contact Webmaster. Website dealing with the paranormal is our specialty. Chuck Warren, Camelot Computers, Web Development Director, www.camolotcomputers.com SPACE SHUTTLE FOOTAGE: There is a great deal of speculation about UFOs being seen from the space shuttle. Decide for yourself, Jeff Chandler has put together raw video footage of the NASA downloads. Learn exactly what is ice crystals and camera smudges? You can decide for yourself. Jeff gives pointers on how to look for UFOs. This is raw footage but well worth seeing for $25.00. PHOTOGRAPH BOOKLET of some of the best UFO shots available and data on their propulsion systems by US Navy Commander Graham Bethune.. $10.00. Send check or money order to G. Filer 222 Jackson Road, Medford, New Jersey 08055 BEFORE YOU BUY OR SELL A HOME SEE MY FREE REPORT -- All real estate agents are not the same? Some real estate agents or sales representatives are part timers and inexperienced. Others are experts with an excellent experience and capabilities. When you are selling or buying your home, you need to make sure you have the best real estate agent working for you before you make any important financial decisions on one your biggest investments! Remember, the majority of people do not know the right questions to ask, and what pit falls can cause major problems. Picking the right real estate agent can be a wonderful experience, and picking the wrong one can be a big mistake that can waste your time and cost you thousands! Find out, "What you need to understand before hiring any real estate agent!" These are the questions that many agents do not want you to ask. Learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent for your needs. To get a free copy of this report, just call (609) 654-0020 or e-mail us at Majorstar@aol.com. We can also help you with your own or corporate Worldwide Relocation to Australia, Benelux, Canada, Cayman Is. England, France, Guam, Hong Kong , Israel, Japan, Mexico, New Zealand, Northern Ireland, Papua New Guinea, Philippines, Puerto Rico, and US. MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative reports subscribe by contacting MUFONHQ@AOL.COM. Mention I recommended you for membership. Filer's Files is Copyrighted 2000 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the Files on their Web Sites provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue that the item appeared. Send your letters to Majorstar@aol.com. Sending e-mail automatically grants permission for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to keep your name, address, or story confidential.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: Travel Channel's 'UFOs Down To Earth' & More From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 19:20:37 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:52:00 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Travel Channel's 'UFOs Down To Earth' & More For anyone that missed it last night, the Travel Channel is re-running the 3-part series twice this Saturday: Saturday, July 29, Travel Channel 8:00 pm - UFOs Down to Earth - Reason to Believe 9:00 pm - UFOs Down to Earth - Uncovering Evidence 10:00 pm - UFOs Down to Earth - Deep Secrets 11:00 pm - UFOs Down to Earth - Reason to Believe 12:00 am - UFOs Down to Earth - Uncovering Evidence 01:00 am - UFOs Down to Earth - Deep Secrets ... In case you haven't heard, Robert Patrick (the "evil Terminator" in T2, as well as Travis' older brother in "Fire in the Sky" is the new FBI character that helps Scully find the abducted Mulder. The casting somehow seems appropriate... ... More TV stuff: History's Mysteries "Ancient Aliens" Whether extraterrestrials ever visited Earth, either in ancient or modern times. Thu 27 8:00 PM 35 HIST Fri 28 12:00 AM 35 HIST Fri 28 4:00 AM 35 HIST ... Outer Limits "Alien Radio" A controversial radio talk-show host is targeted by UFO believers. Sat 29 3:00 PM 19B WABU
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Venezuelan Spectacular Sighting? From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:48:47 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:33:26 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Venezuelan Spectacular Sighting? Ok, let's forget about this British shenanigans (which I kinda knew wasn't even remotely going to live up to the hype), does anyone have the low-down on this (from the most recent Filer's Files)? Or is this also going to join the plethora of reports I see here of amazing, extended videos of UFOs... that somehow never materialize? (I seem to remember a promise in a Filer's Files or UFO Roundup of some other "amazing video" of an extended, close-up sighting in Mexico from 6+ months ago.) ... VENEZUELA SPECTACULAR SIGHTING FILMED CARACAS - On Saturday, July 22, 2000, an object of considerable size, nearly transparent (given the volume of light it is emitting) was filmed starting at 18:28 PM for more than thirty minutes. It appears silvery in color, with a wide upper dome and a fin on its lower hull shaped like an inverted cone. A compass reading places it between 300 and 305 degrees, located to the left of Simon Bolivar University but above Fuerte Tiuna. Using the clouds as a screen, whose luminosity is hard to observe without wearing dark glasses. It is hovering with an almost imperceptible balancing motion, but one would say it is completely motionless. More information to come. Thanks to the Institute of Hispanic Ufology and Martha Rosenthal in Venezuela
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: Siegel Show - Call-In 'Witness' - Cecchini From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:51:51 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:35:11 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Siegel Show - Call-In 'Witness' - Cecchini >Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:39:33 -0700 >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> >Subject: Re: Siegel Show - Call-In 'Witness' >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>A caller to Mike Siegel (guest is astronaut Gordon Cooper), >>claiming to be a former military guy, just recounted a story >>about witnessing a saucer-shaped object being transported >>(tightly under canvas wrap) across whatever base he was on >>way-back-when, etc. Allegedly the base was locked up tight >>& pretty much everyone knew "we have one of theirs", etc. >This is jsut as good as the guy who called in claiming he was a >scientist for MJ-12 but was asking Cooper questions about >MJ-12...it's all radio folks. Anonymity is not at a premium and >you can be anyone you want to be, just like the Internet. Of course. But I relayed the information to see whether or not MUFON was in fact contacted by Siegel. (I'm not a member, and I don't know how MUFON people share their data.) If they haven't been, then if I can remember I'll call up the Siegel show to find out what happened.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: Abductees - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 23:42:01 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:48:48 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductees - Hammond >Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 21:58:53 -0700 >From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> >Subject: Re: Abductees >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 23:46:44 -0400 >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Re: Abductees >>UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>I'm sure you realize this was just the tip of the iceberg! Also, >>it's very frustrating to have someone come on the List, make the >>claims you've made, and then not supply any details. >I don't really see what I said as claims. I'm sure you and >others do, but, in general I believe that claims tend to be >something stated in order to prove something or achieve >something, like get money from having more clients. Perhaps I should have said "statements" instead of "claims". Didn't mean it to sound as if you were making things up for any personal gain. I don't beleive that is what you are doing. <snip> >>I get tired >>of hearing: "You'll have to read my book", especially when >>there is as yet no publisher. >How do you think I feel. I've spent 20 yrs. (or pieces there of) >working on something that will, most likely, never see the light >of day. No big deal right? If you knew what was in it you might >be upset also. This is what I mean, Mike. "If you knew what was in it..." It's frustrating to have someone make that statement without offering any possibility of finding out just what it is. Very frustrating. >I think you misunderstood what I stated. I NEVER said you >weren't ready. _They_ said you weren't ready. snip >Oh. And one other thing. I almost forgot. Thanks for posting >your personal childhood experiences to the list. It's very brave >of you to do so. It's, by far, the best email I've read on the >list so far, followed by the one about the family you posted. >Next comes the actual sightings, which aren't so exciting after >you've had your own close encounters. Fortunately I've never >been abducted. Mike, I've been blowing my horn that it's time for Abductee's to come out of the closet and start acting like we are not dirt on the soles of someone's shoes. In order to do that, I have to put my money where my mouth is, right? It's my hope that by reading what my life has been, and then, hopefully, what other's lives have been, a better understanding of all this can be reached. Yours, Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Stacy From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:04:17 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:52:39 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Stacy >Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 00:04:15 -0400 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 00:20:18 -0500 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Let's begin lightly. If you weren't aware of the internal >>contradictions of your own above paragraph, let me point them >>out. On the one hand you say that children of abductees >>routinely report "entirely on their own" what sound like >>abduction experiences, but then go on to say "or so many >>abductees have said." >>So which is it? Have the children come forth on their own (and >>if so, to whom?), or have the abductees (presumably their >>parents) come forth for them? Big difference, I hope you would >>agree. >Oh, Dennis. I wish I had your imagination. Then, when I read >something that bothered me, I could refute it simply by making >things up. That's what you've done here, as you'll see if you'll >only take a deep breath and calm down. Greg, Beg your pardon, but I've made nothing up. And if I'm breathing too shallowly, you should stop breathing so deeply. I asked a question and you answered it -- fair enough. >Yes, the children come forth on their own. They come forth to >their own parents. Who else? My caveat -- "or so many abductees >have said" -- was just my attempt to be responsible, to put on >the record that my source for what these children do is their >abductee parents. Or, in one case, a non-abductee grandparent. I >haven't talked to any abductee children myself. (And wouldn't you >be horrified if I had?) No, I wouldly simply say that you, like the rest of us, have only secondhand, anecdotal accounts, in the main, with which to deal with, and attempt to interpret and make sense of. More to follow. >To make it really plain: I've heard and read so many accounts of >what children supposedly say to their abductee parents that I'm >willing to believe them. (Oh, and what I've read has most >powerfully been in letters or e-mails from the parents, not in >secondhand reports by abduction researchers.) But I was careful >to say that I haven't myself been present when any child has said >these things. We both welcome and appreciate your carefulness in this matter. >>>I heavily stress the words "entirely on their own." Nobody with >>>any sense would approach a child, especially their own child, >>>and start asking questions like, "Have you ever been abducted by >>>aliens"? Or, "Have you ever had creatures with big black eyes >>>come into your bedroom?" >>Agreed. But why assume any such questioning by parent or >>researcher would be so blatantly crude to begin with? Let's >>assume they're subtilely and simply asked, "Did you have a >>strange dream last night," or "Did anyone enter your bedroom >>while Mommy and Daddy were asleep"? An invitation to fantasy >>or not? >And who, Dennis, put the thought in your own overactive mind >that researchers ask questions like these? (Or at least the >abduction researchers I respect.) You're having fantasies of >your own. I was simply addressing your own hypothesized questions with hypothetical ones of my own. Sorry to match your own fantasies. You eliminated some questions, I suggested others. Perhaps you have a third line of questioning in mind which doesn't lead to possible reinforcement of what others might interpret as a normal childhood experience? But just so that my mind is not characterized as overactive, in comparison to your's, anyway, perhaps you could supply us with examples of questions that abduction researchers _do_ direct to children and their alleged abductee parents, and your assessment of whether you think such questions (and quesioning) is appropriate (and/or possibly misleading) or not. >Tonight, by pure coincidence, I happened to read a letter a >Wisconsin couple wrote to Budd some years ago. They'd heard him >interviewed on the radio, and began to wonder about their child. >Seems like a couple of years before, she'd started talking about >a "man" who came to her room. >I wish I could contact the couple who wrote the letter, and ask >their permission to post it here (without their names, of >course). Then we'd at least have a primary source to debate, >instead of pontificating about things which many of those >joining in this discussion know little or nothing about. (Admit >it, Dennis; you're one of them. Whisper the confession into my >compassionate ear.) Your compassionate ear, I'm afraid, is pretty much a tin horn. If these people were truly concerned about their child, then why didn't they seek help _outside_ of the UFO community? For that matter, why haven't any of these alleged abduction disturbances, which now routinely date back to the 30s, 40s, and 50s, ever surfaced in the pediatric or psychological literature, as opposed to the purely UFO abduction literture? >The letter is five single spaced pages, about 2000 words. It's >carefully written, simply recounting what the parents say >happen, with no assumptions and no conclusions. It's also quite >emotional; the parents haven't understood what was happening to >their child, except that she seemed, in their opinion, to be >having some kind of real experience. But they'd heard nothing of >abductions, and until they heard Budd on the radio, they say, >they didn't know what the experience might be, other than, just >possibly, visions of the dead. And that was a stretch; it wasn't >that they believed in that explanation, but only that such a >thing was all they could think of in trying to find a cause for >what was happening. >They also say they're writing from 20 pages of notes they took >at the time. >In any case, as they tell the story, the child (admittedly very >young -- two and a half when she started, about four when they >wrote the letter) repeatedly brought this up on her own, almost >always very upset. A "man" came to her room. He took her up to >the sky and made her watch TV. "The TV in our living room?" >(That's the only kind of question the parents ever asked.) "No, >a TV in his house." >He had no mouth and big eyes. He lived in the moon. Note the >wording -- "in" the moon. The parents think that's wrong, and >that she must have meant "on" the moon, but note that she always >said "in the moon," possibly suggesting that she was taken >inside some luminous object. >Once in a bookstore they saw a copy of "Communion," and the >little girl pointed to the cover and said, "That's him!" Or, >rather, she said "that's one of the beauties," "beauties" being >one of the names she gave to these visitors she wouldn't stop >talking about. (When she was asked why she called them that, she >said that's what they called themselves." Great. Now, let's take that child and have her examined, in turn, by Hopkins, Jacobs, Sprinkle and Mack. (Given recent developments, I omit Boylan and Carpenter from the above list.) Any bets on your part as to what the collective outcome will be? If you're right, there shouldn't be any significant differences in findings and interpretations whatsoever. Hey, the girl has been abducted! >There was lots more like this, all fitting the standard >abduction scenario. And no, I'm not insisting it has to be real. >Given, Dennis, your propensity to exaggerate and misread what >I'm saying, I'm going to be painstakingly clear. I'm using this >as an exceptionally clear example of the way children are >reported to tell these stories on their own. In this case, the >parents were taken completely by surprised, hadn't asked any >leading questions, and weren't even aware of abductions. For starters, I'm not exaggerating anything. And I think it would behoove you to go back and ascertain just what it is that you mean by the "standard abduction scenario." I've been looking for the latter for sometime now and have yet to stumble across it. But maybe you know better than I do? <snip> >>Short example: your son or daughter tells you that doctors took >>him away at night. Do you console him by saying that you didn't >>see any doctors, or do you begin grilling him as to what the >>doctors were wearing and what they _really_ looked liked? >"Grilling." Your word, Dennis, and a loaded one it is. Who told >you that anyone has been "grilling" children about their >possible abductions? Maybe you're making it up. Greg, excuse the use of the word grilling. Replace it with questioning. >>Actually, it doesn't take a skeptic to be horrified, or, if not >>horrified, at least concerned and asking askance about the >>child's future welfare and exactly what the hell is going on >>here. Once again, you've said on one hand that this is >>forthcoming from the child him or herself, then say that this is >>what their parents report, parents who, presumably, have passed >>their own apprehensions down the family chain. Even if the >>parents haven't, society has, unless we have a plethora of >>abductees who have somehow managed to block their children off >>from all media references to outright alien abductors, never >>mind similarities to all sorts of doctor, crime, and news TV >>shows overflowing with references and allusions to kidnapping, >>medical emergencies, and all sorts of other contemporary social >>crises. >It would never occur to you, of course, that children were >telling these stories before the media were full of alien >abductions. The letter I talked about dates from 1988. The letter itself dates from 1988, or the account therein dates to 1998? Not that it would matter in any event. Accounts of childhood abductions are a relatively recent affair -- just ask Jerome Clark. But I forget: he's too busy to respond. >Nor would it occur to you, apparently, to look for proof that >children tell these stories because they're influenced by the >media. Sure, we need to be careful, but it's not enough to say >that because children _might_ be influenced, we can assume that >they have been. On a better day, you would probably have reworded the above. My short answer is that neither should we take for granted such stories. >children as sources of information. Where _do_ you get your >ideas? >>All they can do, by the very nature of the inquiry itself, is >>run the risk of influencing the child they are interviewing, >>superimposing their adult worldview on the relatively innocent. >As Ronald Reagan said to Jimmy Carter, "There you go again." >What kind of "inquiry" do you imagine anyone is making? >>I cannot emphasize this strongly enough: there is nothing to be >>gained from interviewing a child that couldn't conceivably be >>gained from interviewing adults (whether their parents or not). >>They can add _nothing_ to the _existing_ equation, so why >>involve them on any level at all? What is there possibly to be >>gained? Absolutely nothing. >Not so, though that's not the important issue here. Adults >remember being abducted when they were children. Children's >reports might corroborate those accounts, and also might >corroborate details of what supposedly happens. Yes, so. Adults have only recently recalled childhood experiences. Mack's patients now routinely recall previous lives. Coincidence? You'd like to think so, wouldn't you? >But, as I said, that's not the important issue. The point I want >to make, speaking quietly in the midst of Dennis's fantasies and >exaggerations, is that nobody is grilling children. Nobody I >know, anyway. Nobody says, "Wow, your _kids_ are being abducted. >Lemme at 'em! I want to know what's going on." Instead, adults >are horrified by what their kids are telling them, and ask >people like Budd for help. That help might involve talking to >the kids. Without "grilling" them. Greg, not my fantasies and/or exaggerations, and you well know it. So don't make too much out of the word grilling. Substitute questioning, inquiring or whatever other alternative you want. Point is, you're putting the spotlight on someone, with all that entails. >Shortly I'll post something Budd has written on this subject. >Then we can fire buckshot at it, if we like -- but at least >we'll know what we're talking about. Post it, buckshot to follow. >Oh, and a word about the tone of this post. Normally I'm much >more patient. But, as I reread Chris Rutowski's latest, it >struck me that abduction skeptics don't hesitate to write >derisvely about abduction researchers. So why not give them a >taste of their own medicine? >But I was easy on Dennis. I didn't suggest that some abduction >skeptics might be so frightened of the subject that they can't >think straight -- though sometimes I wonder if that's not true. Greg, I've read these last two grafs over several times and still aren't sure of what you're trying to say. Are you equating me one on one with Chris Rutowski? Or are you just calling me a coward? Never mind. Jerome "Braveheart" Clark is sure to set us all straight. But I forget: he's busy, and I'm about to be. Dennis Stacy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Mulvey From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:01:57 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:31:06 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Mulvey >Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 03:18:32 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Hart >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 10:37:00 -0500 >>From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 15:32:14 -0400 >>>From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >>>Subject: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Hi Gary, >>>>The malpractice lawsuit process was started in May of '97, I >>>>believe, and the KC lawyers group took statements from the dozen >>>>abductees that signed on. >>>This is a different case against Carpenter which ended up >>>fizzling? Hi John, Gary and listfolk, I just went back and re-read my emails. Then I went to the archives. The 20th was the day after my email exploded so in catching up I missed the entire post from Gary which you forwarded to the list that included your 'vacation' notice. I get the 'duh' award since that post was important in me understanding what happened in the days that followed. >>Ann and list, <snip> >>>I'll assume these 12 are included in the 140 cases that >>>Carpenter sold and that they were part of the 20 that already >>>knew about the sale. >>Yes, We don't even know ourselves all the people on the list and >>have not decided if or how to proceed in contacting them as this >>process itself causes a huge trauma to be generated. >That's a blatant lie. Gary told me this last night in an email. You are 100% accurate. <snip> >These people are having their privacy and anonymity screwed left and >right. This isn't funny. No it's not funny. Especially for those 120 families. However, allow me this selfish moment while I think about how I was emailing ideas and posting to push NIDS/Bigelow to notify these people and volunteering my "creative" past experiences when this could have done by our own people. Gary, I, along with the other people on this list and in CS UFO Forum have a life. It's Summertime and quite frankly, I could have been taking my kids to the beach instead of sitting here spinning my wheels - posting all over the damn net - when none of it was necessary. A lot of people went to bat for those families - all along thinking Bigelow was the one holding the list. >I was going to be a good boy and keep my mouth shut but I'm >going to say it anyway. Thank you for exposing this crock, John. I probably would have figured this out at 2AM, when the voices outside my head are sleeping<g>, but I don't know that I would have had the major bon-bons that you have to come out and say it here. Well, maybe I would have. >The reason I haven't answered any of the copious e-mails that you have been sending me is because I was pissed at you for: >1. Sitting on your hands for all this time after you yourself >received confirmation from the principles in the case that this >transaction was a fact. Gary, how could you create this made for TV BS story on the backs of those 120 families, including those kids??!!? YOU enabled this situation to continue when you could have stopped it by notifying the families or by turning over the list to somebody who would have notified those families! We never needed to bother wasting time with the likes of Bigelow! >All you needed to do was to report what you knew, not make >judgement calls on it. Once you had confirmation in hand (the >principles admitted it) there was no way they could sue you, or >that it would hurt any civil actions being taken by the >abductees. Why did this wait for three years for me to come >along? How many others were hurt/violated in the interim no one >knows. >2. I have gone out of my way and been very careful to keep the >focus on the issue of 'what John did wrong' (the violation of >the abductees rights to privacy and anonymity) and not on 'John' >himself. Your posts are full of rhetoric, and rancor that is >very personally directed at Carpenter himself. You are not very >careful about maintaining a clear line between "reporting" and >trying the man in public. _That_ is why I bailed out of all >this. The second the focus shifted from "issue" to "individual" >I checked out. Sorry, no more checking out for you John. Well meaning, overcomitted speedreading, ditzs and dweebs like me need to get the truth from somebody. <g> >You should have done "something" long before this Gary. Loooong >before Johnny came along to take all the public heat. You arrive >here at UpDates as a welcome guest but it wouldn't have been so >'easy' had you been the one to break the news. Do you have any >idea the "Dixie Shuffle" I had to do to keep the thing on track? >No, you sat back and read my posts for weeks sending me all >kinds of 'compliments' and watching to see if I was going to be >torn apart by Bigelow or Andrus or Carpenter. You gave me the >lame excuse that you were waiting to send your report into MUFON >before saying anything. So you leave me out there dangling in >the wind as "bait" and you poke your head out when you hear the >"All Clear." Lie to me, you and eveybody on this List. Then admit to me and you that he has this information. Are you and I in some secret club that doesn't tell?<g>This is way beyond what my Irish bullsh*t capacitors have been trained to handle. >In New York we borrow a rural phrase to describe folks like that: >Chicken sh*t. Not everybody has the makings of a leader. Some barely have enough spinal material to stand. Compassionate, decent people who fall into those categories often have the brains to turn a situation that is over their heads/hands/guts to somebody who can handle it. Shame on you Gary. >You have the list of names. So does Elizabeth. Don't BS the crowd. >Keep it straight man. I _told you_ I'd be watching you like a hawk! >You let me take the heat alone dude. I'm "in it" now. Don't deviate >on this list one iota from what you have told me privately. I'll >pull your covers hard. Ditto on the private bs, which is mostly telling me how wonderful I am.<g> Ditto on the covers. >>Should everyone be notified? We don't even know the answer >>to_this_ question as the problems this generates have never been >>dealt with before on such a large scale. What do all of you >>think? Gary, I almost smacked you between the eyes when you said this to me. I wish I had, but I opted to be as polite as I could stand. Should everyone be notified? Who the hell do you think you are? This isn't a 'club' where people vote on who gets informed and who doesn't. Nobody on that list is less deserving of the truth. What a stupid thing to suggest! >I think that if it was me, I would want to know. (Yesterday!) >Take the focus off of Carpenter Gary. This isn't "Judge Judy's" >TV Courtroom. It's an e-mail list. By mentioning Carpenter so >often you are creating an atmosphere where the man will be tried >in the court of "public oppinion." Regardless of how low I may >personally judge John's actions, I'm a rabid American first. *** >Innocent until found guilty in a court of law by a jury of >ones own peers. _With_ legal counsel present for the defense. *** >Most of this came out as a result of a divorce. There is always >_two sides_ to the story. Carpenter needs to make some kind of >statement. We should hear the man out before condeming him in an >e-mail kangaroo court. I realized several days ago that the more time spent wondering which researcher sold/transfered/beamed up what file, the less time spent on the details of the 120 becoming aware of what happened. That was before I became aware that this issue was three years old. That was before I knew that I didn't need to waste my time or energy with Bigelow or NIDS discussion board or my latest attempt at coming up with *creative ideas* because the complete list was available all along. These people need to be notified ASAP - all of them. And Gary - if you think that UpDates is some club that has the right to decide such things, I'll be the second to vote against you as the person to do the notifying. <snip> >So what's up with the list Elizabeth has? Are you going to >notify these people yourself? Instead of asking us what we >think, why don't you tell what you are going to do with the list >you have in hand. No more waiting. IMO, this list needs to be passed on to you John. I'm now going to go use my 'ivy league union organizing background' on figuring out a way to get my kids to clean their rooms. Hopefully that might distract me from wanting to throw my computer out the window. Thanks John. Ann
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: UFO TV Documentaries? - Cecchini From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 21:36:13 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:51:41 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: UFO TV Documentaries? - Cecchini >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:34:40 -0300 >Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:55:16 -0400 >Subject: UpDate: Re: UFO TV Documentaries? - Friedman >>I am currently working on my UFO web site, and I am planning >>on having a section devoted to respectable documentaries tha >>have been produced on UFOs. >'UFOS ARE REAL', was produced by Group 1 in 1979. It was shown >on TV on a number of occasions. It is 93 minutes long and >includes interviews with Dr. Bruce Maccabee, Dr. James Harder, >Dr. Richard Haines, Dr. George Mitchell (OSU astronomer), >Betty Hill, Travis Walton, Marjorie Fish, Jesse Marcel Sr., >Ted Phillips, Colonel Larry Coyne, Colonel Wendel Stevens, and >myself. This past weekend, working off of a tip form a friend, I scored a major find at a well-known New England chain of stores that sells stuff really cheap & walked out of the place with 18 UFO videos all for $2-$3 each. Amongst them were 2 different videos called "UFOs Are Real". I'll see if one of them is the one you refer to. But I also found your "Flying Saucers Are Real", parts 1 & 2. I haven't watch them yet, but do you consider those to be a sort of definitive statement of yours? >It also includes rare footage of an electromagnetic submarine >in operation and a nuclear rocket in operation (not together). >Unfortunately, it also includes a 2 minute segment on Billy >Meier which I tried unsuccessfully to exclude and is the only >case discussed which I did _not_ stand behind. Part 2 of your "Flying Saucers Are Real" seems to indicate that you fully believe the Hill's story (other interviews I've seen with you also indicate this), and the blurb promises the viewer that we'll find out where the aliens really come from -- so, presumably there's talk about Betty's star chart and so forth. My question for you is why do you believe the Hills, and Betty's talk of star maps and stuff, but give no credence to Meier?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart - From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:35:46 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:34:41 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart - >Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:50:49 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Hello Elizabeth, Gary, All, >I would like to make a very public request for a copy of the >list of names and addresses of the 140 abductees whose files >were sold. I am asking you Elizabeth and Gary because both of >you have told me repeatedly that you have this list. >It's time to notify these people that their privacy and >anonymity may have been seriously compromised. They need to be >able to decide for themselves whether they wish to pursue the >matter or ignore it. The point is; it is _their_ choice. They >cannot make any decision if they do not know. John, Elizabeth might give you the list right away. I think the most responsible thing for me to do is to ask several people on it what they think. I have talked to them before and I may need to remove them or remove names of persons who do know and want their own anonymity. Even this is a sticky issue until approved or adjusted as requested by those involved, ok? I need to act responsibly as I have pledged to them to do so I will get back with you in a couple days. I, and they, sincerely appreciate your concern! Gray Hart
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Stacy From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:38:34 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:51:44 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Stacy >Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 10:21:21 -0400 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >I think it would be helpful if they'd demonstrate that they know >something about the subjects they're addressing. (It's possible, >as Dennis has shown us, to know much about abductions and still >know little or nothing about a particular area of the abduction >debate.) >Greg Sandow Greg, My Lord, boy, are you referring to me, completely out of the blue? If so, let me append the following: It's possible, as Greg has demonstrated on more than one occasion, to promote acceptance of the possibility of alien intervention without so much as a cursory recourse of the current scientific information that suggests otherwise. Unless, of course, you think otherwise. Dennis Stacy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Stacy From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:07:27 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:52:48 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Stacy >Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:09:31 -0400 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >Since I've been so hard on abduction skeptics, let me cite some >skeptical abduction writing that I respect. <snip> >Greg Sandow Man, what is it about this David Gotlib thing! How come this guy don't get no respect? How come no one's ever heard of The Bulletin of Anomalous Experience? According to Clark, it's all Bullard's fault. Sounds good to me! Dennis Stacy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Hart From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:49:34 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:55:29 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Hart >>Yes, We don't even know ourselves all the people on the list and >>have not decided if or how to proceed in contacting them as this >>process itself causes a huge trauma to be generated. >That's a blatant lie. Elizabeth Carpenter told me herself that >she is in pssession of the list of abductees whose files John >sold. Now you say in public that you "don't even know ourselves >all the people on the list." Would you mind clarifying that for >me please? John, Keep your mouth civil. I won't respond to cursing. I don't know who a name is, where they live or anything else. I will not let just anyone see this list, understand? Privacy was shot down once, not again! There will have to be a plan in place to handle the situation before anything else happens. >1. Sitting on your hands for all this time after you yourself >received confirmation from the principles in the case that this >transaction was a fact. This is far more complicated than you can believe. Cool off, slow down. I didn't make this happen, nor did you. Cool heads must prevail. At least I _did_ something. No one else in the research community did when they had chances. >All you needed to do was to report what you knew, not make >judgement calls on it. Once you had confirmation in hand (the >principles admitted it) there was no way they could sue you, or >that it would hurt any civil actions being taken by the >abductees. Why did this wait for three years for me to come >along? How many others were hurt/violated in the interim no one >knows. There is plenty of culpability to go around here. I am doing the best I can. None of us can fix this perfectly. . >2. I have gone out of my way and been very careful to keep the >focus on the issue of 'what John did wrong' (the violation of >the abductees rights to privacy and anonymity) and not on 'John' >himself. Your posts are full of rhetoric, and rancor that is >very personally directed at Carpenter himself. You are not very >careful about maintaining a clear line between "reporting" and >trying the man in public. _That_ is why I bailed out of all >this. The second the focus shifted from "issue" to "individual" >I checked out. John, if that's your sincere opinion, to attack the messenger that I will not say more about this. END
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 02:35:12 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:58:26 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Mortellaro >Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 14:52:12 -0400 >From: Bill Weber <wweber1@sc.rr.com> >Subject: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:19:31 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? >>To: updates@sympatico.ca > >>This is being done over and over in every Department of >>anything, everywhere - on subjects at least as personally >>dangerous as abduction - and performed pretty effectively by >>hungover kids to boot. Why _can't_ abduction research guarantee >>anonymity so things like that won't happen, and still share >>results? Everyone else is doing it. I don't get it. What is >>it that's _not_ being said? >>difficulty of the act of maintaining non disclosure. It has to >>do with money. In the face of growing debt, not being able to >>handle one's financial obligations and finding it more and more >>difficult to manage - selling what you have is a simple >>solution. Selling it to someone with deep pockets, such as >>Bigelow, who is in the business of researching the phenom, is >>even easier." >I didn't intend the above to be directed toward anyone in >particular, most especially _not_ Carpenter and Bigelow... >rather, it was intended as just a general sort of comment. (In >my state, we believe in letting the accused have a final word >before the stoning.) I already know that about you, Dr. Weber. And _that_ title is well deserved. Conferred by a level of honesty, integrity and respect which has always been your hallmark. Unfortunately UFO research is far from being true research. There may be people practicing true research, but it isn't "true" in the sense that it has been legitimized by the ROW. Had this occurred, there would not be a problem in earning a living whilst spending all of one's time and energy on the subject. Unfortunately, research must be shared, but not among researchers. Rather, each researcher must share the work with making a living. And the two functions are nearly always mutually exclusive. I apologize if I seem to have hammered the nails in place on the crosses now being born by NIDS and/or Carpenter. That was an error on my part. However my comments, whilst premature, assume the worst. Which is something many of us on this list appear to do. "To choose one's victims, to prepare one's plans, to slake an implacable vengeance, and then to go to bed .. there is nothing sweeter in the world." Nah, 'tweren't me brother in law said that, it was Smokey Joe Stalin in conversation with Kamenev and Dzerzhinsky. I got carried away. Or is it merely that throughout this entire thread, one too many folks have already hung the poor bastards? Only after the fact do some folks claim not to have tightened the hangman's knot. Too late, folks. >Sharing abduction data _could_ be done, and generally speaking, >it isn't. I was wondering "why" out loud. If abduction research >was handled more traditionally, much of the motivation for that >sort of sale would be gone. It just seems to me that if >abduction research wanted to be taken more seriously, they'd >start attempting to use the traditional approaches - methods >and protocols that have already been used and tend to work. >This seems to me like nothing but common sense, yet it's rarely >mentioned. They really don't have to break any new ground. Lots >of "uncomfortable" things are studied every day - by people >with half the talent. The origins of UFO and abduction research may be a large part of the reason the subject is not handled more traditionally, vis a vis scientifically, with data sharing, etc. Our origins are on the bookshelves along with the paranormal, ghosts and devil worship, New Age and how to have an out of body experience. Our origins are on movie theater marquees of the fifties, soft cover dime novels and statements such as "The REAL Truth about UFO's" and such. Perhaps that mentality exists in the back of the minds of anyone attached to the work, not to mention the minds of the skeptics. Maybe this is why the entire subject appears surreal to so many and is handled with the same closet mentality style by those engaged in the work. >I'd hate to think, (and prefer not to), that it is a question of >money. It seems like there are easier and better ways for >these guys (Jacobs, Hopkins, et al.) to make an extra buck - >especially by doing things that enhance rather than possibly >derail or threaten their careers. No, their motivation seems >altruistic... I just don't understand the footdragging by the >leaders in this research. As long as the leaders continue this, >the opportunity for abuse will always be there. Boy, I love you Bill. But in this regard, I entirely disagree. It _is_ money. Money and notoriety. Anything which good men such as you have referenced do, tends to derail their careers. Especially since their careers are _not_ the UFO business. Their careers are something else entirely. If I could legitimately provide a Ph.D. in UFO research, and academia would provide the venue, then this conversation would be moot. But neither is so. I cannot, academia will not and the goobers in gooberland put on their Alzheimic smirk, which comes out of one side of their faces. On the other side is a completely different look. The one belies the other. I guess I'm just old and tired. Which is no excuse. I came out of my closet. I began to write of my experiences, remembering so much vivid detail that it amazes even me. I've always said that I do not care on bit who believes it or who does not, whether people liked the reading or not, whether they think I am nuttier than a candy bar and even whether it makes me a buck or does not. In fact, true to this line of reasoning, I intend to publish it myself. Nothing has changed in this regard. But the closer I get to doing it, the more I put down on paper, the more I realize that a good deal of the above is a lie. Especially the part about people believing me. The money? I couldn't care less if I lose all of it and sell only the ones I buy to give away to my mommy and daddy. But it really is important to be believed. "Sometimes a man must be alone. But this is no place to hide." And no way, either. Which leaves my sanity suspect. "Nothing is revealed." Only reviled. Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart - From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 03:34:24 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:59:43 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart - >Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:50:49 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart >To: updates@sympatico.ca >It's time to notify these people that their privacy and >anonymity may have been seriously compromised. They need to be >able to decide for themselves whether they wish to pursue the >matter or ignore it. The point is; it is _their_ choice. They >cannot make any decision if they do not know. >I will get together with Greg Sandow and EBK and see if we can't >come up with a draft for a letter to send these folks. One that >will not 'alarm' them or freak them out. Although I'm not quite >sure if such a thing is possible under the circumstances. Yup Let's start doing what's right for these people. I personally trust the three of you to take that on. Note my winning record isn't exactly flawless in the trust division, but what the heck - I've trusted worse than you three!<bg> Best of luck. Ann
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: Travel Channel's 'UFOs Down To Earth' & More - From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 03:44:24 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:01:24 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Travel Channel's 'UFOs Down To Earth' & More - >Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 19:20:37 -0400 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> >Subject: Travel Channel's 'UFOs Down To Earth' & More >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Reason to Believe >Uncovering Evidence >Deep Secrets >Reason to Believe >Uncovering Evidence >Deep Secrets <snip> Are you sure this isn't a miniseries devoted to recent Ufological scandals through the eyes of UpDates subscribers?<g> Just in case... I want John Goodman to play me. Nobody messes with him. ;) Ann
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: South African Incident - 500 Years Ago? From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:42:39 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:03:51 -0400 Subject: UpDate: South African Incident - 500 Years Ago? Forwarded from 'alt.paranormal.crop-circles'. RTL4 is a TV channel. Stig *** Subject: crop-circles and the flying saucers Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 18:15:35 +0200 From: "a.w. reijersen van buuren" <a.w.reijersen.van.buuren@hccnet.nl> Organization: Hobby Computer Club News Network Newsgroups: alt.paranormal.crop-circles ** In South-Africa some 500 years ago there was a flying saucer that caused panic by a tribe there. After the event a medicineman of that tribe carved in a bone that what happened. The present medicineman of that tribe still has the bone. It is clear to see that it is a flying saucer that caused the panic. The medicineman has a story about this bone and the event. This was years ago to see on RTL4 in the Netherlands. A woman Tineke de Nooi presented it. The bone could be dated (and for me it should not be a surprise if then they should let disappear it.) bert rvb
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: Venezuelan Spectacular Sighting? - Corrales From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:31:05 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:14:13 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Venezuelan Spectacular Sighting? - Corrales >Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:48:47 -0400 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> >Subject: Venezuelan Spectacular Sighting? >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >Ok, let's forget about this British shenanigans (which I kinda >knew wasn't even remotely going to live up to the hype), does >anyone have the low-down on this (from the most recent Filer's >Files)? Or is this also going to join the plethora of reports I >see here of amazing, extended videos of UFOs... that somehow >never materialize? (I seem to remember a promise in a Filer's >Files or UFO Roundup of some other "amazing video" of an >extended, close-up sighting in Mexico from 6+ months ago.) Dear Ron-- The qualifier "amazing video" was used by the source of the Venezuelan information. I have no idea if the footage will be available or when. Certainly the description was impressive. Whether it lives up to expectations will be a largely subjective matter, I think. Best, Scott Corrales
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: Abductees - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 04:12:29 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:05:51 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductees - Velez >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >To: "02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers":; >Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductees - Beaver >Date: Mon, Jul 24, 2000, 9:07 PM >Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 21:58:53 -0700 >From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> >Subject: Re: Abductees >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 23:46:44 -0400 >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Re: Abductees >>UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>I'm sure you realize this was just the tip of the iceberg! Also, >>it's very frustrating to have someone come on the List, make the >>claims you've made, and then not supply any details. >Dear Liz: <snip> Hi Liz, Beaver, All The 'Beaver' responds to Liz: >I think you misunderstood what I stated. I NEVER said you >weren't ready. _They_ said you weren't ready. Exactly what >happened was: By "they" I assume you mean the 'aliens?' I'm not going to touch that comment/response to Liz with a ten foot cattle prod. I'd rather watch it hang in mid-air like a ~painfully slow~ Louis Tiant curve ball! <LOL> >That's what I wanted as well; not to take a trip, but to go >_permanently_. Honest to God Beaver, no sarcasm or put down intended. Get some counselling help with the above. I spent some time the early part of last year doing a couple of newscast interviews regarding the Heavens Gate cult suicides. I consented to do the interviews (one played on CNN and another on some local New Jersy cable news program) so that hopefully folks would realize that not all abductees are suicidal,insane, or want to depart earth permanently at any cost. I'm sure before the Heavens Gate'rs reached the point where they were willing to discard their bodies in an effort to, "Join the mothership with Fa and Bee and leave earth permanently" they shared your feeling about wanting to split with aliens forever. Those deaths sobered me up. Which is why I'm talking to you the way I'm talking to you now. Just in case that "wish to leave permanently" is depression based. If not, blow off this part of my response. You may be an explorer at heart and your reasons for wanting to leave connected to curiosity and adventure. But if not, they could indicate some problems. In the extreme case I just cited it can even progress to the point of suicide. Can't happen to me you say? Let me introduce you to some family members of people who did do it. I don't 'fluff off' remarks like yours. >I don't have a practice open here. And though I've taken the very >minimal 4 hour aids awareness class necessary for state >registration of hypnotists here I haven't yet paid the state's >90 dollar cut to make what I do, on the side, legal here. I have >the forms for it. I just haven't gotten around to it yet. The 'best news' is contained in the first sentence. "Amateur" hypnotists have no business poking around in other people's heads! Are you a Psychiatrist or psychologist that is trained in hypnosis? If you are, then pass the salt and I'll eat my hat. If not, someone with your belief system about aliens and UFOs has no business hypnotizing anybody else for the same thing! It is wrong, and it is irresponsible. 1. You're 'biased.' and,... 2. If somebody seriously freaks out on you and you don't handle it properly, the blame for any resulting long or short-term psychological damage to the subject will sit squarely on _your_ brow. Why take those kinds of risks with someone else's head? >Oh. And one other thing. I almost forgot. Thanks for posting >your personal childhood experiences to the list. It's very brave >of you to do so. It's, by far, the best email I've read on the >list so far, followed by the one about the family you posted. So odd how two people can read the same thing and come away with two entirely different reactions/responses. I found Liz's childhood account dark and disturbing. If you were paying attention there are major elements to her account that also feature predominantly in abuse or sexual abuse cases. How you can say that it's "the best e-mail by far" that you've read is a little outside of ken. Liz contacted me some years ago and we had a chance to talk some. Her case is one that comes up from time to time among those reporting abductions. People who may be being abducted who also have 'real world' abuse experiences. It can be a confusing mess for folks in that situation to ferret through all their own memories trying to figure out what belongs to which thing. Yes, Liz _is_ very brave and courageous. But not for 'coming out' and telling her story in public. Liz is great because in spite of the magnitude of the job in front of her, (one that would defeat many others before they even start) she works hard and struggles to understand the nature and meaning of her own memories and experiences. More importantly, she questions things. She applies all of her intelligence, experience, and common sense to the task. That's rare among abductees. Believe me. I've spoken to hundreds over the years. Liz's story is not the 'best anything' to ever appear on this list. It was a candid and open act of sharing on her part. Anyone with a heart couldn't help but empathize for the bruised and confused little girl in the story. I wept for her. "Cool story" was not the first thing to jump into my mind. To each his own. >I've only gotten halfway out of my body before, >and felt myself coming back in once; nothing as exciting as >actually getting out. Was that from the beaver up or the beaver down Beaver? (*I'm sorry List; I'm weak. I couldn't resist. <EG>) >Some say they have found out that they >chose to do this (participate in the abduction process) before >taking this incarnation. I never got a chance to get into that >aspect with my one abductee client. I wonder if that's true for >a large minority or even a majority of abductees. I won't go >into my knowledge of spirits choosing incarnations here. That >would make this email waay 2 long. Hey Beaver, did you ever dance naked with a chubby middle-aged white man in a hot tub in California by the pale moon light? If the aliens ever give me a ray gun I'm gonna fry hypnotists like you after I do all the lawyers, insurance salemen and Amway dealers first! <screeching maniacal laugh!> Give your one client his/her money back along with your profuse appologies. It's the right thing to do Beav. ;) Regards, John (Wally) Velez, Alien Spawn
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: Venezuelan Spectacular Sighting? - Young From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:56:27 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:46:45 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Venezuelan Spectacular Sighting? - Young >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> >Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:48:47 -0400 >Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:33:26 -0400 >Subject: UpDate: Venezuelan Spectacular Sighting? >>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com> >>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 17:45:12 -0400 (EDT) >>Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:49:04 -0400 >>Subject: UpDate: Filer's Files #29 -- 2000 <snip> >>VENEZUELA SPECTACULAR SIGHTING FILMED >>CARACAS - On Saturday, July 22, 2000, an object of considerable >>size, nearly transparent (given the volume of light it is >>emitting) was filmed starting at 18:28 PM for more than thirty >>minutes. It appears silvery in color, with a wide upper dome >>and a fin on its lower hull shaped like an inverted cone. A >>compass reading places it between 300 and 305 degrees, located >>to the left of Simon Bolivar University but above Fuerte Tiuna. >>Using the clouds as a screen, whose luminosity is hard to >>observe without wearing dark glasses. It is hovering with an >>almost imperceptible balancing motion, but one would say it is >>completely motionless. More information to come. Thanks to the >>Institute of Hispanic Ufology and Martha Rosenthal in Venezuela. Ron, Geoge, List: Thanks, Ron, for asking for details. It looks like this paragraph was written _as_ the sighting was occurring. No details of any investigation was given. I wonder what the object did later and how it disappeared? The details of the sighting, "...object of considerable size, nearly transparent (given the volume of light it is emitting)...silvery in color, with a wide upper dome and a fin on its lower hull shaped like an inverted cone...hovering with an almost imperceptible balancing motion, but one would say it is completely motionless", sound like a textbook description of a large research balloon. Clear skies, Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart - From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:37:52 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:49:59 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart - >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:35:46 -0500 >From: Liz Hammond<lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:35:46 -0500 >From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>> >>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:50:49 -0400 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Hello Elizabeth, Gary, All, >>I would like to make a very public request for a copy of the >>list of names and addresses of the 140 abductees whose files >>were sold. I am asking you Elizabeth and Gary because both of >>you have told me repeatedly that you have this list. >>It's time to notify these people that their privacy and >>anonymity may have been seriously compromised. They need to be >>able to decide for themselves whether they wish to pursue the >>matter or ignore it. The point is; it is _their_ choice. They >>cannot make any decision if they do not know. >John, >Elizabeth might give you the list right away. I think the most >responsible thing for me to do is to ask several people on it >what they think. I have talked to them before and I may need to >remove them or remove names of persons who do know and want >their own anonymity. Even this is a sticky issue until approved >or adjusted as requested by those involved, ok? I need to act >responsibly as I have pledged to them to do so I will get back >with you in a couple days. I, and they, sincerely appreciate >your concern! >Gray Hart Gary: The most responsible thing you can think of to do is pass the buck one more time? Just get off your wishy washy butt and get on the phone! Either phone these people or word a _very_ tactful letter, or fax them or e-mail them. Just do something for god's sake. I have to join Ann and just ditto me everything she said so well. Stop dithering and posturing and wondering and asking. What you need to do is clear, has been clear and will be clear. After three years if you delay this so much as one more day then you're a bigger prizewinner than any party involved in this! Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth Carbenter and Gary Hart - From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:57:46 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:53:22 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth Carbenter and Gary Hart - >From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:35:46 -0500 >Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And>Gary Hart - >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:50:49 -0400 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Hello Elizabeth, Gary, All, >>I would like to make a very public request for a copy of the >>list of names and addresses of the 140 abductees whose files >>were sold. I am asking you Elizabeth and Gary because both of >>you have told me repeatedly that you have this list. >>It's time to notify these people that their privacy and >>anonymity may have been seriously compromised. They need to be >>able to decide for themselves whether they wish to pursue the >>matter or ignore it. The point is; it is _their_ choice. They >>cannot make any decision if they do not know. >>John, >Elizabeth might give you the list right away. I think the most >responsible thing for me to do is to ask several people on it >what they think. I have talked to them before and I may need to >remove them or remove names of persons who do know and want >their own anonymity. Even this is a sticky issue until approved >or adjusted as requested by those involved, ok? I need to act >responsibly as I have pledged to them to do so I will get back >with you in a couple days. I, and they, sincerely appreciate >your concern! I see, it is alright for John Velez to ask for personal information about abductees for his purposes, but it is not alright for Carpenter to do something similar. Hmmm! If someone gives me information in confidence, it is alright to breech that confidence, if I think the cause is worthy? Hmmm! Who is going to provide this information? How do they have access to it? Hmmm! Now we all know that John Velez has the highest motives, to inform abductees of a breech of their confidence. Now if some one else comes along with equally high motives to, say, refute the Randle-Estes comment on many abductees' sexual orientation, isn't that an equally worthy cause? Shouldn't they get a list of abductee's names and addresses? Update Readers, please cut and paste your own worthy motives into this message and request further breeches of confidentiality. John, why don't you prepare a letter with your address, telephone and E-mail and let those who hold this info send it out for you? I think it is time to _practice_ what is _preached_ around here! Thanks, my two cents. Jan "I am somewhat of hypocrite myself, but I am rather ashamed of it" Aldrich
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Brookesmith From: Peter Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:10:56 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:23:18 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Brookesmith With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza: >Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 10:29:46 -0400 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Re: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> Dear Liz: I've cut your personal account not because it's uninteresting -- indeed it is fascinating. But I really don't think I can say anything useful about it that I'm prepared to say in public. I have both our sakes in mind here! To have anything useful to say in any case I'd need to know an awful lot more than you've posted, and the thoughts that flit through my mind are probably premature. However: >As to your friend Howard, I notice you cannot even >entertain the notion that maybe he IS an abductee :) >You are not open minded about this at all, or you >would have let that stand as one of the issues that >needed to be looked into. Instead, you view it >as something that has to "untied", cured and gotten >rid of. I and all abductees should be open minded >about you're theories and ideas, yet you don't extend >the same courtesy to us. No, I don't entertain that notion, and nor does David Howard. This isn't through lack of open-mindedness or discourtesy, but because he knew and his family knew exactly where he was whenever he was in narcoleptic sleep, and it was right in his own home. If anyone wants to argue that *nonetheless* he was "really" being abducted in some non-physical sense, I'm afraid I'm not going to venture into that arid latitude of speculation. The significance of his case is its apparent spontaneity and its illustration of the problems represented by apparently real memories. As for the (physical) reality of abductions in general, I've never said that that is an absolute impossibility. I have plenty of extremely defensible reasons for doubting their reality, from the bad logic and dubious methods of most abductologists to the "rare earth" hypothesis. But every case has to be taken on its own merits. You only need one watertight instance, after all. I have yet to meet one. I honestly never *expect* to meet one, either, but then I didn't expect to see a leprechaun at Glendalough in the late 1970s either. And, to repeat myself (and Dennis), the possible alternative explanations are _patently_ not exhaustively examined by all the researchers whose names immediately spring to mind. With the necessary work not even half done and baseless speculation rampant, the grotesque antics of a Dr R. "Grazer" Jacuzzi thus become virtually inevitable, along with the millenary paranoid fantasies of David Jacobs and John Mack. >You wonder how so many events are so similar (abductions) >could it possibly be that we are all being taken to >roughly the same place and undergoing much the same >treatment? Or can't you even consider that? My apologies for displaying Readmybook Syndrome: but you'll find a reasonably full account of David Howard's case in my book on abductions. Where he "went" in his dreams is like no other place reported by abductees. The similarities between one abduction and another (or all others) strike me as more superficial than substantive. Ed Bullard's claim that the similarities suggest an actual experience of some kind is fair enough, and gets fairer with every day that he moves away from thinking his logic endorses the ETH. But look at a random sample of abduction narratives from a variety of investigators (to reduce that possible bias) and you'll find a huge variety of detail once you go below a certain filter size. So, to answer your question, yes, I have considered this, but the evidence doesn't convince me. Especially when I see such similar patterns at a certain level in other kinds of narratives of anomalous experience, from encounters with gods & fairies to ritual satanic abuse. Refrain: I do not pretend to have solved this conundrum. >Thanks for the pleasure of an actual give >and take debate, Peter. It's been a breath of fresh air! You're welcome, and thank you, too. However, as we've all been instructed that encouraging me does no one any good, please don't tell anyone we've been having this discussion. best wishes Peter B
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Brookesmith From: Peter The Duke of Mendoza Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:11:01 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:25:26 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Selling Files - Brookesmith The Duke's compliments to the 14th Mr Jones & the list: > Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 16:40:55 +0100 >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> A propos the Great Gotlib Mystery, Sean enquired: >As for your pestering, could I suggest an alternative >approach? Try asking the question again whilst explaining >that you really are interested in an answer, as I >certainly am. Actually, I thought I really had done that. But I was told to ask Ed Bullard, which seemed a mite evasive. Seasoned observers may have noticed that it was only then that I became entirely satirical. >Speaking of arm waving. Are you as amused as I with >this almost constant "rebirth" of British ufology? Strangely enough, I see a loose connexion between these two points. The latest crazed rant from Tim Matthews made me reflect on the relevance of ad hominem enquiries in this field, which is not like physics. It actually is fruitful to consider the character of the players and gauge their utterances in the light of who they are, or have been, or appear to be. Political -- or politically correct -- bully boys? Ufology has an unbeatable range, and all at cut rates. UFOIN won't make British ufology get itself rebirthed, reborn, or reincarnated (except perhaps as a row of doorposts), but it is at least a sane enterprise conducted by people of great experience, rationality and intelligence, and something of the kind is long overdue. So naturally someone or the other had promptly to denounce it as a "gang of debunkers" in whose tainted company Jenny Randles did not belong. Jenny pays the price of being reasonable more often than not. That's enough lines for you to read between. best wishes Pithpeeler D. Mushroom Always in the Dark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: BUFOSC - Final Comments On Cheshire Footage From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:00:01 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:41:30 -0400 Subject: UpDate: BUFOSC - Final Comments On Cheshire Footage Dear All, Excuse the lengthy spiel but..... Despite the evasions, half and quarters truths, righteous indignation and more besides several clear factors need to be taken into consideration: Whilst I am the personal target for some pretty low smears, we continue to grow and our influence is spreading because members of the public who we deal with confidentially on a day-to-day basis know that we are interested in the truths behind the UFO mystery, the paranormal and ancient civilisations. They know, through personal experience, that UFO-type phenomena are very real, profound and far reaching in their implications. They also know that we respect their wishes, their confidentiality and the spirit of their message. The Cheshire Incident 1 - This has almost become international and much gunboat diplomacy is called for. Nevertheless, it is true that; - Eric Morris and Karl Woods are not and never were friends, close or otherwise. 2 - Eric attempted, and failed, to put on a UFO promotional event at the cinema managed by Karl Woods some three years ago. Woods expressed "an interest", it is reported, in Ufology at the time, but nothing else. 3 - When Woods recorded his intriguing footage, all 4 1/2 minutes worth on Sunday 9th July at 1345, he was neither expecting to see anything - having just returned home. He did not expect to capture anything much on his Canon UC-8000 Digital Camcorder but was enlivened when he discovered that something very interesting had been filmed. - He is a former Royal Observer Corps rating and is pretty well qualified to make observations on this basis. 4 - The video tape itself is initially wobbly but improves after the camera is placed on tripod. There is absolutely no indication of a hoax, these are very rare in any case, because we hear the real time amazement and shock of the witnesses as the object appears and disappears before their eyes. Woods is totally honest about what he saw and we have no reason to doubt him. 5 - The motion of whatever is filmed, the "UFO" to all intents and purposes, is not suggestive of a balloon or anything like it. What we see is a controlled, corkscrew motion. (To the skeptic, nearly all visual evidence is written off in advance as the stars and planets, balloons or birds. Even the Area 51 material!) 6 - The investigation continues although many avenues have already been pursued in our limited time. We all work full time, I have two jobs, so we cannot spend hours and hours on research - even though we drive our families mad in our efforts to pin down the true nature and causes of this, and other, UFO reports. 7 - We have contacted the local Police, Manchester Airport, Air Traffic Control, the Ministry of Defence, Nick Pope at the MOD, and RAF Valley (Anglesey) so far. (It has been claimed by two skeptics that "no investigation" has been undertaken. They are mistaken.) 8 - Nick Pope did "actively assist" us in our enquiries - as I stated initially on my hastily penned Press Release dated 17/7/00 . His was a minor though important role and we are very grateful for his help and support. I have crossed swords with Nick before but last Xmas we agreed to bury the hatchet and to turn over a new leaf. Since then, we have had very little contact. Nick himself has been smeared by the same people now attacking BUFOSC, MAPIT and LUFOS. He comes over to me as a very genuine researcher whose job at the MOD gave him limited access to UFO material. (Unlike Andy Roberts, who appears to have to ask Georgina Bruni to act as his unwilling message girl, I have Nick's address and phone number.) 9 - I stated, in more general comments on this enquiry, that when dealing with the press, which is my appointed and voluntary task for BUFOSC, that I always present and balanced picture of the UFO evidence, such as it is. This includes putting forward three main explanations for the small number of unexplained or "high strangeness" UFO reports; natural phenomena secret human technology/MMUFOs "alien" intelligence This must be in everyone's interest. 10 - With this in mind I mentioned in passing that I had spoken to Paul Devereux about earthlights. Like the Pope statement, this was denied by skeptics although the facts are clear; I spoke to PD on some 8 occasions last year in relation to earthlights, writing for the short-lived BEYOND magazine, raising funds for scientific research into earthlights and consciousness effects and so on. We spoke, often at length, and my phone bill proves this. For some reason, this has been denied. PD provided me with two articles for BEYOND including one on the latest research into psychic abilities undertaken by Persinger at Laurentian University. He also joined me on the Eclipse Cruise last August where we were lucky enough to get a great view of the totality..... My email records hold some 10 messages held in full from Devereux and include two full articles for editing. I think more than a passing relationship is thereby proven! (Copies of the two articles are available on request.) 11 - The skeptics have Not seen the full footage Have not investigated anything in relation to this case Were "not interested" in investigating a recent case involving Steve Mera of MAPIT Would not assist in the Winter Hill case despite requests for urgent assistance. They have lived up to all our expectations; Belittling investigators who disagree Attacking the investigators Investigating the investigators and not the evidence Refer to my colleagues as a "gang" 12 - On every major point they are wrong so they need to mislead. Roy Lushman claims knowledge of a supposed close relationship/friendship between Karl Woods and Eric Morris. This is simply not true and having met Woods, placing me at a distinct advantage over the skeptics, I find him to be business-like and honest. Knowing Eric and his friends very well, and working in the same profession (well, Eric is a nurse, I work with schizophrenics/the severely mentally handicapped - much nicer than skeptics most of the time!) I can say that the name Karl Woods has never figured in conversation - and I've known Eric for over three years. Lushman will try and pretend to know more than he really does on the basis of his working within the cinema industry. Woe betide the cinema manager or assistant who shoots some UFO film; they'll no doubt "be working" with the investigators!! 13 - No doubt Woods did claim "an interest" in UFO way back when, but then managers do this kind of public relations stuff every day. It's called courtesy, not conspiracy. 14 - The term "falling leaf" was used by the witness. I prefer the term "corkscrew" motion because I feel it best describes the motion of the object seen. For some reason, the use of this term of more than one occasion by a witness to a UFO in Cheshire is seen as evidence of our unreliability. 15 - Winter Hill. We always said, right from the start, that this was an unusual case and possibly a hoax. Skeptics claim to "know" that the incident is a hoax but to them There are no UFOs ever or anywhere All cases are a hoax/non-existent/a witness-driven fantasy So any case would be flawed to them before we started to try and get to the bottom of it. A full report, one reflecting the many contrary things about the case, is available to read on the MAPIT web pages or via Steve Mera; s_mera@yahoo.com We appealed to various local newspapers for help in this matter after drawing a blank with the MAFF, local Police and so on. The Bolton Evening News wrote a report and we received a few UFO reports but nothing else. Approximately the same number of emails and press releases were circulated in this case as with the Cheshire case of two weeks ago. Then as now, there was no effort to try and hype the case to the media - although we make no apologies for approaching media and public direct. I'm sure they have a much better idea about these things than any number of skeptics. Andy Roberts says that he "knows" the Winter Hill case to be a hoax. He will not say why or involving whom but I suspect that this is just evidence of his belief systems in action; these tell him that under no circumstances could farm labourer see a very bright UFO hovering above a cow shed, make a UFO report and then disappear. Tell that to the many farmers in the midwestern US countryside whose cattle have an unerring tendency to be mutilated by forces unknown.... 16 - Video Analysis. We have been asked, and have agreed, to send a copy of the Cheshire tape to the NIDS, National Institute of Discovery Sciences, in the USA. Whatever they conclude is OK with the British UFO Studies Centre and we respect NIDS work. The skeptics claim that no analysis "has been" done but how are we supposed to pay the �50-�100 per hour to have it professionally analysed - within 2 weeks? And to what end? To "prove", as if this were possible, that the object is really there!? We agreed to send the tape to NIDS whilst Phil Mantle was searching out contact details for Jeff Sanio of MUFON. So, yet again, the skeptics are wrong. 17 - Our aim, in the Cheshire case and any other, is to try and identify the object. We have not been able to do so AS YET and neither have the authorities. The skeptics claim it is a balloon; one of them bases his conclusions upon a children's TV programme called Newsround. Hardly science now is it? 18 - The sighting came against the background of an increase in local and regional sightings and we have received dozens of letters/reports/calls since the initial and unexpected publicity. (Jenny Randles claims that ours was a "well-organised" media campaign despite our very limited time and limited distribution of Press Release. She has no evidence of a "well-organised" campaign and perhaps confuses organisation with success in this incidence.) 19 - The sighting also must be seen, in our view (the skeptics disagree; for them, the paranormal is another field of human weakness and irrationality with no patterns and trends) against the background of paranormal happenings in Cheshire as reported at our meetings, in the press and in other statements. (We are still looking into these with the assistance of Dave Sadler, MAPIT and other local paranormalists. It will take years of research and better funding before sensible conclusions are reached.) There appear to be hotspots and one of these is near where the Cheshire UFO was filmed...! 20 - We also take the attacks upon us as evidence of our success and profile. This will be denied but there is altogether too much jealousy in our view. In my own case, this has been going on for well over two and a half years and is totally expected. No doubt when these skeptics get bored with me somebody else with be scapegoated and attacked. This is all part of Ufology. One colleague of ours was wrongly and quite scandalously accused of "sleeping with" an abductee/encounterer years ago. The man who made this criminal accusation is also in the background encouraging attacks upon me now. I'm still here, BUFOSC is bigger and better than ever and we're making friends all over the place and building bridges with new and established UFO/Paranormal research groups worldwide. As we have said, this is our final comment on the Cheshire Incident. I have much other work to do, a family to look after and my sanity to preserve. It's also soon the beginning of the football season and Wigan Athletic are going up this time! Sorry.... The skeptics will continue to pervert the course of Ufology, to encourage open and hostile skepticism and to investigate the investigators not the evidence. We'll continue as ever before because, as that old military saying goes..."blows that do not destroy us make us stronger." I'll say Amen to that. More next time around. Tim Matthews, Press Officer, British UFO Studies Centre.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: Lancs/Cheshire Sightings, Our Position From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:17:43 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:42:23 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Lancs/Cheshire Sightings, Our Position >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> >To: <updates@symaptico.ca> >Date: 25 July 2000 18:05 >Subject: Lancs/Cheshire Sightings, Our Position Hi, Further to Andy's e-mail I will simply say: 1: I am still waiting for Tim to withdraw on UpDates his claim two days ago that I have smeared the witness in my posts to the List. Tim knows (and the UpDates moderator and its subscribers know) that I have simply asked pertinent questions about the possibility of a balloon interpretation for this case. This is an interpretation that several others on the List agree does require that we hear Tim's answers in order to form a balanced judgement. 2: I trust the moderator of UpDates will monitor whether Tim does do the right thing here and either publish proof of my alleged smears posted on UpDates or - since these do not exist - withdraw this allegation. That is all that I am asking for. A perfectly reasonable thing for any honourable person to do - surely? And if he does not do this then that the moderator of UpDates considers this refusal. 3: That my simple questions about the wind speed and direction at the time, their comparison with the speed and direction of the object in the video and the presence/non presence of local sources from which balloons might have been launched are replied to for the benefit of the many interested people on the Updates list. As there are surely some of these list-people whom Tim must hold in respect - this hardly seems an improper request on their behalf. This data will, of course, demonstrate - if we follow Tim's argument - the improbability of the balloon theory. Which if it does then fair enough - we can move on. It would only be the debunking we keep hearing about if such a theory were unreasonable held onto in the face of that evidence. Right now its perfectly reasonable on the basis that virtually everyone I have spoken to who has seen the footage suspects that a balloon is what is on there. Really its as simple as that, because this data either exists or it does not and if it exists what possible reason is there as to why other ufologists cannot be told the details? 4: That so far as I am concerned this is a friendly list discussion of whether the case matches the claims made about it - or does not. And whether the way that the case was promoted by BUFOSC was in the best interests of ufology - or was not. Nothing more, nothing less. The personality clashes, snide comments and frankly bizarre abusive attacks on UFOIN are both beneath contempt and have nothing to do with this case. They should have no part in any proper debate about the evidence. I refuse to be drawn into a childish squabble and intend to continue to focus on asking in an amicable manner for straightforward answers offering your colleagues straightforward evidence. I will only put questions about the case and leave all those out there watching from the sidelines to decide for themselves who is making this into a personal battle and who is not. Best wishes, Jenny Randles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart - From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:34:49 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:50:27 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart - >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:35:46 -0500 >From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:50:49 -0400 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >I think the most responsible thing for me to do is to ask >several people on it what they think. You really don't get it. The people that haven't been notified _need_ to be notified _now_ Gary. That's what this is about. I'm beginning to think you wouldn't know 'responsible' if it bit you in your hoo-ha! >Even this is a sticky issue until approved or adjusted as >requested by those involved, OK? What gives these people any more power or right to the truth than those who don't already know? >I need to act responsibly as I have pledged to them Pledged? This isn't a Boy Scout meeting Gary. You sat on this list, lied about having it publicly and continue to think that you're doing the right thing by allowing the majority of people on this list to swing in the wind. You can't really think these are inclusive acts defining responsibility. If you do, you're in an extremely small minority. >I will get back with you in a couple days. I, and they, >sincerely appreciate your concern! Who made you spokesperson for these people? Also, from the material I've been reading lately, I doubt the sincerity of your appreciation for John.<g> You have no ethical right to hang on to the list of names of people who are still in the dark. Popular opinion polls among those _you_ chose to be 'in the know' can't stand in the way of the rest of these people learning the truth. >Elizabeth might give you the list right away. Oh puhleese. She wouldn't give John Velez a glass of water right now. Now, I'm holding _you_ accountable Gary. You had better review your stories well before you post here because if I have any information to the contrary I will nail you. I resent like hell that my good intentions were used to fuel this BS fest. More importantly, I resent you standing in the way of those 120 people making their own choices with information that they deserve to know. Get off it Gary. Pass on that list to John, Errol or Greg before you dig yourself in any deeper. Ann
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: Siegel Show - Call-In 'Witness' - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 18:18:05 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:55:11 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Siegel Show - Call-In 'Witness' - Balaskas >Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:51:51 -0400 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> >Subject: Re: Siegel Show - Call-In 'Witness' >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:39:33 -0700 >>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> >>Subject: Re: Siegel Show - Call-In 'Witness' >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>A caller to Mike Siegel (guest is astronaut Gordon Cooper), >>>claiming to be a former military guy, just recounted a story >>>about witnessing a saucer-shaped object being transported >>>(tightly under canvas wrap) across whatever base he was on >>>way-back-when, etc. Allegedly the base was locked up tight >>>& pretty much everyone knew "we have one of theirs", etc. <snip> >But I relayed the information to see whether or not MUFON was in >fact contacted by Siegel. (I'm not a member, and I don't know >how MUFON people share their data.) >If they haven't been, then if I can remember I'll call up the >Siegel show to find out what happened. Hi Ron. I do not think Mike Siegal contacted MUFON Ontario either but what I have to share below may be related to the alleged capture of a real flying saucer back in 1952. Later this year Bill Zuk's book on the U.S. funded and Canadian built "secret" AVRO flying saucer will be on bookstore shelves. Two of these man-made flying saucers are known to still exist, one outside an Army museum in Virginia and the other at a National Air and Space Museum facility in Maryland. Bill hopes that one of these two AVRO saucers will be brought back to Canada permanently for public display. Now I have been told that a third AVRO saucer has been located in a field north of Toronto nearly half way to Sudbury. Once I get in contact with Bill (Do you or anybody else know Bill's phone number in Winnipeg where he lives?) this saucer too may be making a trip under a canvas wrap, possibly to the new Toronto Aerospace Museum to be refurbished and exhibited not far from where it was built. What has all this to do with MJ-12 and real flying saucers? Well I have also learned that a downed real saucer was recovered at the time of the famous "Alien Invasion of Washington, D.C. in 1952". U.S. military airplanes were involved in an ongoing cat and mouse game with the flying saucers and although no saucers landed on the lawn in front of the White House, one downed saucer was allegedly recovered nearby. I understand that it was this same downed alien saucer which was later test flown openly in public using the "secret" AVRO flying saucer project as a cover, at least this is what I have read. Ron, it would be interesting to know if the "former military guy" who phoned Mike Siegel was referring to this recovered flying saucer or to one of the 250 plus other suspected UFO crashes compiled so far at the CSETI web site or possibly even some other unknown UFO case. Surprisingly, CSETI makes no mention of the 1952 UFO crash near Washington, D.C. - strange since it also involved the landing of a second flying saucer which rescued the occupants of the downed saucer (Shades of Shag Harbour!). Nick Balaskas
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - From: The Duke of Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:33:20 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 23:23:12 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - The Duke of Mendoza presents his compliments to the List and a big electronic squeeze to John "Alien Spawn" Velez. And of course His Grace apologizes to Jerome "Simon Stylites" Clark, for being encouraged by Mr Velez, viz: JEROME K. CLARK: AN APOLOGY The Duke of Mendoza and his household are very sorry about Jerome Clark. Now let's get on with it. >Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 15:43:35 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> This is a long post, so I'm quoting only what I think are the most pertinent bits. There is, er, some repetition. John, as one good friend to another, please let me shout at you across the electronic swamp: PLEASE GO AWAY ON YOUR HOLIDAYS! Get a good rest, come back refreshed, take a day to recover (holidays are so exhausting), and please only then read and, if you feel like it any more, answer this one. Neeoww: >For some reason when it is Hopkins, your emotions >take over and it is clear to all that you have a >serious 'hard on' for him. That's ok too Peter, we all >encounter people that just 'rub us the wrong way.' Apart from one occasion (chronicled here once by Greg Sandow, who eyeballed it) I have got on perfectly well with Budd in the flesh; and then it was he, not I, who lost it. The point is not the personal relationship: the rubbing up or down doesn't originate there. I have criticized Hopkins entirely on the basis of his publicly expressed (printed) views, and, yes, I do have a "hard on" for some of those, which I find unsuitable for public dissemination: the most repugnant being his speculations in "Witnessed" about the parentage of Linda's son Johnny. >But when you allow it to bring you to a froth (as >Hopkins does with you) it can rapidly deteriorate >into what we see coming from you for example, (the >name calling with Linda) when the topic is Hopkin's >Cortile case. Or _any_ Hopkins case I would imagine. >(Which includes me!) When you call him a phoney and >a liar you call me one too Peter. When you publicly >ridicule Linda and call her a liar and a cheat you >also splatter that paint on me and every other abductee. No, I do not call you a liar and a cheat because I ridicule Linda. Linda is Linda is a rose; just because I have it in for one Hopkins case does not, in any system of logic known to me, mean that I necessarily question all the rest of them -- let's be clear about this -- on the same grounds. Continuing with his theme of lying, cheating, hoaxery, phoniness, et al, John says later: >But when you start calling me (or Linda or Budd) a >liar or a cheater/hoaxer in public, you damn well >better be prepared to substantiate it. >Would you please be so kind as to offer _one shred_ >of evidence that Budd or Linda have perpetrated an >intentional hoax. That they purposely invented a lie >and that the case is a manufactured piece of fiction >that was intended to (intentionally) fool the public. >If you cannot provide it, would you please refrain >from calling them and, (by carom shot) me, liars, >cheats and phonies in public. Trouble is, I have not applied to Budd, Linda, or you any of these naughty words. (1) I said I think (IMO, ok?) Linda is a fake, and that self-delusion may play some large part in that. If I print counterfeit $20 notes for use in a stage play, with no desire, opportunity or intention to pass them off at the local 5&10 as real, those notes are just as fake as ones printed by forgers brimming with criminal intent and eager for easy profit. In either case the notes are dud. I suspect, but cannot prove, that Linda is one of the victims of a hoax, along with Budd. She and Budd got sucked into it because they "choose" to believe in her "abduction" (and a lot of other hokum easily sliced with Occam's Razor), & that the Sec-Gen of the UN would "sign" a letter with a typewriter, and so on, blah. Budd in his innocence ends up trying to sell the Brooklyn Bridge to the book-buying public, and Linda has a stake in the take. Linda for that and/or any other reason in the speculative realm insists that she's an abductee and tangled up in something of cosmic import. I sort-of understand that but I don't buy it. I also think Brooklyn Bridge is a magnificent edifice, and own a beautiful painting of it, but worth no more than $5 to the average passerby. And if Linda is as nice a chap as everyone I know who's met her insists, my weary cynical mind (2) I don't think you're a fake or a hoaxer, never have, and have never said so. I think you're mistaken about the nature of your experiences, hardly an intolerable opinion to you (chuckle). (3) As stated above, my (or anyone's) assesssment of the Linda case as hokey doesn't impugn you. (4) Insofar as I engage in a degree of satire in playing with Linda's name I am indicating my skepticism toward her and hers, above all, and am also perhaps, in my naive and unwolrdly way, hoping that she and hers (incl. B. Elliott Hopkins) might wonder why some people don't believe them. There is no overspill. And (*pace* what you say elsewhere) I am perfectly entitled to mock her. What else should she expect, given her dancing around (check the archives!)? Linda's in-person charm is no guarantee of anything else about her, I'm afraid. I speak here as a seasoned acquaintance of psychopaths. (And lest some lunatic infer otherwise, I make that point only to establish my lack of innocence a propos plausible accounts in general, not to cast vague aspersions on any particular character.) What makes abductees so special *as witnesses* that they should be treated differently from anyone else? You (you, you Rabid American!) make one exception to the rules of evidence and you potentially compromise every other remarkable claim's accessibility to necessarily merciless questioning. MJ-12 and all its works? Willy Meier? Bill English? The list is endless. I am not spitting on abductees here. I am simply stating the obvious -- that if you "come out" as an abductee you have the choice of talking only to what you perceive as your own kind or risking a lot of flak from the unconvinced. I admire those who take the latter course, but they can't have it both ways. Remember my leprechaun. >It has gotten to the point where abductees in >particular are viewed as, and spoken of as if >they were less than human. Yes, that does happen, and I deplore it, because it misses the point (that is British understatement). I do not belong in that camp, as well you know. This doesn't mean some aductees aren't less than human, but each case has to be taken (as I commented to Liz Hammond) on its own merits. All the "abductees" that I've met or corresponded with have been entirely human. That said, I repeat, neither I nor anyone else is under any special moral obligation to take what abductees say at face value. The abductee population is itself so variegated too that, it's plain, a substantial proportion would rise up angry at such a suggestion. No one knows better than you and a few others who are or have been on this list that I'm sympathetic to experients. But neither that nor my irrepressible skepticism makes me responsible for Dr/Col Alexander's mean opinions, or Phil Klass's obliqueness, or any other shit dumped on abductees' doorsteps, and neither does it oblige me to defend abductees per se. >Don't take it personally mon ami I don't. I leave that to others who live in the sticks, metaphorically or actually. best wishes Puffalot D. Mogulballoon Incomprehensible Fragment
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Stacy From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:30:45 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 23:31:10 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Stacy >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 16:22:30 -0400 >From: Bill Weber <wweber1@sc.rr.com> >Subject: Anonymity and Sharing? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >One of the things I've been wondering about since this witness >anonymity business broke, is why in the years I've been reading >this List, some basic steps of formal research apparently >haven't been applied to abduction research. I'm certainly no >research genius, but I did manage to complete a thesis. After >explaining my intentions and getting each to sign off on >permission, I asked 42 respondents how often they committed an >act that other studies correlated with a particular, sleazy, >business practice I was interested in, then guaranteed >anonymity, honored it, and managed to share an executive summary >of the data (none of which could identify an individual >respondent) with the research and business community I was >involved with - and with the respondents themselves. Why does >this seem to be such an impossibly complex problem in abduction >research? It's _not_ that hard. Bill, Actually, something like this was undertaken within the UFO community. I'm not up to date on its current status, which I suspect is moribund. This was the MUFON Abduction Transcription Project, under the direction of Dan Wright. At last count, it had transcribed some 215 cases, and, no, I'm not sure whether that number represents the total of individual cases covered, or includes multiple sessions for different individuals. Occasional summaries were published in the MUFON Journal, and, I believe, maybe a MUFON Proceedings or two. Unfortunately, several major abduction researchers declined to participate. (I would have said refused to participate, but I suspect Greg Sandow is reading my e-mail and minding my grammar, when J. Clark isn't.) >This is being done over and over in every Department of >anything, everywhere - on subjects at least as personally >dangerous as abduction - and performed pretty effectively by >hungover kids to boot. Why _can't_ abduction research guarantee >anonymity so things like that won't happen, and still share >results? Everyone else is doing it. I don't get it. What is >it that's _not_ being said? You'll have to ask those most involved. In the main, we're left with summaries of the abduction experience as reproduced in the commercial market place. Or with whatever water Greg Sandow is allowed to haul away from Budd's well. Ooh, cheap shot! But I had to take it. Sorry, Greg, and apologies in advance. I know you won't hold it against me, and I really am leaving on vacation this Friday. Just after I come up with a parting potshot aimed at...well, never mind! Dennis Stacy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 25 UpDate: Anatomy Of A UFO Hoax From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@nokomis.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:36:58 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 23:39:02 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Anatomy Of A UFO Hoax List members: I encourage all of you to read the section on my webpage titled "Anatomy of a UFO Hoax". It is a rather lengthy section, but I think it is important that those of you who are true researchers know about this man. His name is Dennis Bossack, and he has a radio talk show out of Westerly, Rhode Island. Dennis made incredible claims via the internet, claims that were proven to be lies about his past, his educational level, his "above-top-secret agency". Some have already been a guest on his radio show. Others who are members of this list are scheduled to appear as a guest later. I think you deserve to know everything that has been going on regarding this man. The URL is: http://www.jilain.com/hoax.htm Ufology doesn't need any more "insiders" milking the UFO consumer public out of our hard earned cash. Please read the "Anatomy of a Hoax" about Dennis Bossack before making an appearance on his show. I doubt if you'll get this side of his story from him. Bobbie Bobbie "Jilain" Felder --->backwoods of Mississippi --->USA --->planet Earth --->somewhere in the cosmos http://www.jilain.com http://www.ufohoax.com http://www.dragoncrest.net ICQ #7524076 ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers And things are not what they seem~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Abductees' Files - Hart From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:39:54 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:15:39 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Abductees' Files - Hart >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:01:57 -0400 >From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Velez >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Gary, how could you create this made for TV BS story on the >backs of those 120 families, including those kids??!!? YOU >enabled this situation to continue when you could have stopped >it by notifying the families or by turning over the list to >somebody who would have notified those families! We never needed >to bother wasting time with the likes of Bigelow! List, I never said anything about kids. I did not have the list until this past April and I never said I didn't have it since then. MUFON has known about this case for three years and done nothing. The case is actually four years old as the file sale was summer '96 but not discovered until a year later. I found out about the case last summer and went to MUFON to get them to investigate and was rebuffed. The legal actions of the listed abductees did not end until fall '99 so I could do nothing until after that date. My four month effort started in April when I requested the list and all the evidence pertinent to the case when an acquantence challenged my knowledge of the facts and I again approached MUFON with a negative result. I chose to become better informed, gained the trust of the people I now represent, did MUFON's job for them by writing a report and will not violate the privacy of any one of those people on the list by giving it to someone else. We will take care of finding the people whose names are on the list. To all members of this List: Go after the cause of these problems: John Carpenter. Fix the system so it does not fail us again: install tighter ethical controls and re-write Informed Consent forms for hypnosis to prohibit transfer of materials without expressed written consent, and this on a separate form to be filled out sometime after the hypnosis. >You should have done "something" long before this Gary. Loooong >before Johnny came along to take all the public heat. You arrive >here at UpDates as a welcome guest but it wouldn't have been so >'easy' had you been the one to break the news. Do you have any >idea the "Dixie Shuffle" I had to do to keep the thing on track? >No, you sat back and read my posts for weeks sending me all >kinds of 'compliments' and watching to see if I was going to be >torn apart by Bigelow or Andrus or Carpenter. You gave me the >lame excuse that you were waiting to send your report into MUFON >before saying anything. So you leave me out there dangling in >the wind as "bait" and you poke your head out when you hear the >"All Clear." What ever your game is John, I'm not listening. If you can't tell truth from fiction, you have much to learn. The truth is: I never told you to post anything. You took that on yourself and we do appreciate your start toward making everyone aware of these issues. My only words were: use this as you wish, or words to that effect. I stand behind everything I've said and will continue to do so!!! If you don't like me or this subject then get off the bus. Your choice. My phone number was posted and I've yet to get a call. My phone bill this month will be $150+ in my efforts to keep members of the list informed of my efforts. Perhaps John, you and Ann need to read more carefully. Blowing through messages and then blowing through the people that wrote them does not do anyone any good. Expletives used to make your point are especially unwelcome by everyone! As for the other stuff you said - you are so far off base that you really ought to look in a mirror and get real about yourself. Gary Hart
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart - From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:51:52 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:31:18 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart - >Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:50:49 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Hello Elizabeth, Gary, All, >I would like to make a very public request for a copy of the >list of names and addresses of the 140 abductees whose files >were sold. I am asking you Elizabeth and Gary because both of >you have told me repeatedly that you have this list. >John John, The list of names is not the issue of main importance. Ethics are. You have your facts sorely mixed up so the list issue is off the table for discussion. It will be handled by those directly involved and no one else need apply. Perhaps you ought to put yourself in another's shoes and think how you would react if a person came to your door and announced your file had been sold. The issues are far more complex than some simplistic answer. Some of the list members comments are below, by the way: >Written by a friend: I wrote to the abductees whose addresses I have and brought this post (John's) to their attention. So far, these are the responses: Marilyn says, "I do NOT want this fella involved. Leave it up to us and Gary to take care of this. So my answer is absolutely NOT!" Sandy says, "No....I don't think this fella needs our names, eventually we can get everyone notified ourselves." So that's what 2 of the 140 think about John Velez contacting the individuals on the list. Gray Hart
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart - From: geehart@frontiernet.net Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:57:45 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:59:13 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart - >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:37:52 -0400 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart - Hammond >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Gary: >The most responsible thing you can think of to do is pass the >buck one more time? Just get off your wishy washy butt and get >on the phone! Either phone these people or word a _very_ tactful >letter, or fax them or e-mail them. Just do something for god's >sake. >Liz Oh, Liz is out, too. Interesting. No further responses to Liz, Ann, John unless something really imaginative is said. You seem to have gotten lost somewhere. We, the list members who know who they are are doing what needs to be done. Bye. ~Gary
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 22:10:00 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 10:03:25 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Mortellaro >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:57:46 -0400 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >Subject: Re Open Letter to Elizabeth Carbenter and Gary Hart >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >>Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:35:46 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And>Gary Hart - >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:50:49 -0400 >>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>Subject: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Hello Elizabeth, Gary, All, >>>I would like to make a very public request for a copy of the >>>list of names and addresses of the 140 abductees whose files >>>were sold. I am asking you Elizabeth and Gary because both of >>>you have told me repeatedly that you have this list. >>>It's time to notify these people that their privacy and >>>anonymity may have been seriously compromised. They need to be >>>able to decide for themselves whether they wish to pursue the >>>matter or ignore it. The point is; it is _their_ choice. They >>>cannot make any decision if they do not know. >>>John, >>Elizabeth might give you the list right away. I think the most >>responsible thing for me to do is to ask several people on it >>what they think. I have talked to them before and I may need to >>remove them or remove names of persons who do know and want >>their own anonymity. Even this is a sticky issue until approved >>or adjusted as requested by those involved, ok? I need to act >>responsibly as I have pledged to them to do so I will get back >>with you in a couple days. I, and they, sincerely appreciate >>your concern! >I see, it is alright for John Velez to ask for personal >information about abductees for his purposes, but it is not >alright for Carpenter to do something similar. Hmmm! >If someone gives me information in confidence, it is alright to >breech that confidence, if I think the cause is worthy? Hmmm! >Who is going to provide this information? How do they have >access to it? Hmmm! >Now we all know that John Velez has the highest motives, to >inform abductees of a breech of their confidence. Now if some >one else comes along with equally high motives to, say, refute >the Randle-Estes comment on many abductees' sexual orientation, >isn't that an equally worthy cause? Shouldn't they get a list of >abductee's names and addresses? >UpDate Readers, please cut and paste your own worthy motives >into this message and request further breeches of >confidentiality. >John, why don't you prepare a letter with your address, >telephone and E-mail and let those who hold this info send it >out for you? >I think it is time to _practice_ what is _preached_ around here! >Thanks, my two cents. Dear Jan, Why the sarcastic Bully Durham? Wassamatta wit yous? Got something against another party having this list? What the hell, there are so many now, John Carpenter, Mrs. The John Carpenter (and say, what the hell is she doing with this list anyhow?), then there is NIDS or whomever in NIDS has seen the data and not likely last, Gary, who has sat on this stuff for what, three years? That there are likely more folks who have the list is probably a damned good guess. So why not spread it around some more? OK, so sue me for being sarcastic. But the responsibility for this crime against people belongs to... uh... cheeses, I forgot. There are so many people in this. Ah but we cannot assign blame to NIDS or Carpenter. Or Hart. Or Mrs. Carpenter. Let's give it to Johnny, then someone can blame him for some breach of something or other. Ever think about how just having this data might affect you, Velez? In terms of leaving you liable for Lord knows whatever? Why you wish to join the list of people with the list and, as a consequence of having the list, join the list of liable people, is beyond me. Just who is responsible for doing the right thing? Quite frankly, I don't know. But I do know that anyone who has it stands a damnably good chance of getting their asses in a sling. In addition, anyone who has this list stands a good chance of getting blamed for anything which goes wrong with a person on it. God forbid, what would happen if someone decided to leave his or her body and take the lives of others in the process? And merely because they learned of their neames being sold without their permission. Everyone on the list of people having the list is a target for a major lawsuit. And Jan is quite correct. If one gives it to Velez, there is little reason not to give it to someone else. Perhaps someone with intentions which are not so honorable. Maybe Gesundt. He'll buy anything. Will wonders never cease? Of course not. What a stupid question. Ann Mulvey, who I believe to be quite sincere, is now yelling at Hart. It seems that the target is now you, Gary. and if I read it correctly, Ann, you now want Gary to pass it on to Velez, Sandow and EBK. "SOLD AMERICAN!" Anybody else should have this list? HUH? I thought so. Jim Mortellaro
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Re: Siegel Show - Call-In 'Witness' - Stacy From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:52:40 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 10:04:52 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Siegel Show - Call-In 'Witness' - Stacy >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 18:18:05 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >Subject: Re: Siegel Show - Call-In 'Witness' >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >What has all this to do with MJ-12 and real flying saucers? >Well I have also learned that a downed real saucer was recovered >at the time of the famous "Alien Invasion of Washington, D.C. in >1952". <snip> >Nick Balaskas Nick, At least you gotta admit that that's a lot better than learning that a real fake saucer had crashed somewhere. I really am going on vacation -- I promise! Dennis Stacy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 00:48:48 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 10:09:14 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:33:20 -0400 >From: The Duke of Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >The Duke of Mendoza presents his compliments to the List and >a big electronic squeeze to John "Alien Spawn" Velez. <snip> Howdy, Doody, Dukey or whatever you are, and of course the Listers and EBK, The word, "Lister" seems to carry great meaning these days, eh? Anyway, I have a few questions for the Duke. First off, is yous really a duke? Or are you just joshing with us? For example, I, the great Gesundt, am neither great, nor a Gesundt. I am a voice in my head. And them Ph.D.'s I keep awarding myself, well, they are really real. Just as real as the voices in my head, and the memories which reside there. I apppreciate your amusing references to the great Velez's, experiences, saying stuff like "I don't think you're a fake or a hoaxer, never have, and have never said so. I think you're mistaken about the nature of your experiences, hardly an intolerable opinion to you (chuckle)." Heh, heh. "Chuckles" is a fruit candy. Used to cost a nickle. (chuckle). I seriously doubt that your words really mean what you appear to intend them to mean. To be mistaken about our experiences is the key set. It's the one which I consider insulting. Don't really give a rat's ass about how your friend takes it, I am answering for me, not him. Quite frankly, I could care less about whether you believed Velez or anyone else to be a chuckle or a froot loop. Don't make no never mind to me. However I am sincerely impressed that such as you may be on Velez "good guy" list. VERY impressed. Cheeses, you must be one hell of a guy to be able to make that position. May I aks how you managed? Never mind. I really don't care. Uh, let me get to the point. This one's right on top of your head. I sense that your ducal signet ring has gone to it. Your head, I mean. Made you smarter than you sound. You cannot provide one single signal as to why your opinion is as it is. No proof of your feelings having any validity. I really don't give a crappola what you think of Velez. I do, however, care a lot about what you think of abductees in general and in Hopalong Hopkins in particular. While you are entitled to your opinion, it eludes as to why you whine it here on UpDates. I mean, cripes, Duke, this of all places ain't the place to bitch about how little you think of the truth of other peoples' memories, eh? Notice how I throw in that Canajun phrase as often as I can? How the hell do you think Gesundt gets to post here. Anyway? Ah but in this case, God is on your side. Must be. As you have not been reamed up one side and down the other. I won't change that. But I resent your opine. Just thought I would mention that. Sit a spell, take your shoes off. Y'all come back, now. Heah? Just don't come back with that bull dingie about how much you doubt the hard evidence of abductees. The one in their memories. That, sir, sucks big time. It's insulting to me. Ah, no need to apologize, though. You have Velez's succor. I did spell that right I hope. Not to worry though. If I goofed, my good friend Errol Bruce-Knapp will correct me. He is so good to me. I often wonder if he is planning another binge on Gripple and wants to keep me on his good side. Nah. He knows that God is not on my side. N'cest pas? Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Mulvey From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 01:23:12 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 10:13:11 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Mulvey >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:57:46 -0400 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >Subject: Re Open Letter to Elizabeth Carbenter and Gary Hart >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >>Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:35:46 -0500 >>Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And>Gary Hart - >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:50:49 -0400 >>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>Subject: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >I see, it is alright for John Velez to ask for personal >information about abductees for his purposes, but it is not >alright for Carpenter to do something similar. Hmmm! Hi Jan, I don't follow the logic of your comparison at all. What do you think are John Velez's purposes if not what he stated? >If someone gives me information in confidence, it is alright to >breech that confidence, if I think the cause is worthy? Hmmm! The cause? 120 people remain ignorant that their personal abduction information was sold three years ago. John Velez and a lot of people, including me, think these people have the right to know this - not just a chosen few. I'm somewhat of a queen of causes<g>and I happen to think this is a pretty good one! >Who is going to provide this information? How do they have >access to it? Hmmm! So far, nobody is going to provide this information. Not one among those who have this 'list of names' has come forward stating that a plan is in motion to contact these 120 people. >Now we all know that John Velez has the highest motives, to inform >abductees of a breech of their confidence. Then why did you try to make some lame comparison between John Velez's request and plan to notify with John Carpenter selling abductee files? >John, why don't you prepare a letter with your address, telephone and >E-mail and let those who hold this info send it out for you? Jan, why don't you close your eyes for five minutes and imagine what it would be like for you to have taken your family to an abductee researcher whom you trusted. Imagine this trust is such that you allow your children to be interviewed on video and maybe you and your spouse filmed during a hypnotic regression. Imagine too, that on the same film, are your interpretations, reflections and emotional responses and that of your spouse regarding intimate details of your personal life. Imagine that this recorded, deeply personal scenerio took place because the well being of your family life was at risk, as the result of events and experiences that none of you could explain. Most of all, this scene took place because you found a researcher who you trusted. Now, blink your eyes and imagine that the same trusted researcher sold off this aspect of your life for a hundred bucks - but you don't know it. Three years pass and you're still in the dark. You remain ignorant and powerless to look at legal options or to request from Bigelow that the material be returned to you because of the choices and options made by other people. These people btw, have already looked at options and choices for their families. Not you. You and your family are left hanging in the wind.. How does that feel? Hmmm? I didn't just yammer the above keyboard mind-trip for drama. My point is to illustrate that it's the empathy factor that is getting people like me and John Velez so upset that this is continuing. These families need to be notified Jan. If Gary Hart, MUFON and Bigelow et. al. aren't going to do it - then why not let John Velez, EBK and Greg Sandow draft a letter and send it off? If your issue with this plan is one of trust then perhaps you need to talk about that. However, if your point was to paint this scene with some philisophical totalitarianism to fire up the neurons of those who are most vocal on this issue, you missed the mark. It's not logical given this situation. >I think it is time to _practice_ what is _preached_ around >here! Sorry, I don't get your point, especially since it's seemingly aimed in the wrong direction. Ann
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Re: BUFOSC - Final Comments On Cheshire Footage - From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 03:12:01 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 10:16:29 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: BUFOSC - Final Comments On Cheshire Footage - >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:00:01 -0400 (EDT) >From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com> >Subject: BUFOSC - Final Comments On Cheshire Footage >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Dear All, >Excuse the lengthy spiel but..... <snip> Y'all, Tim's points 1-20 have all been dealt with in previous posts by myself, Jenny or James Easton. No amount of Tim's metaphorical shouting and pointing can change what has been done and said falsely, in the attempt to promote not investigate the case. Note though, that the press release which he at first so vociferously defended and which has been shot to bits is now demoted to 'hastily penned'. Watch and learn pilgrims, watch and learn. Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Re: Final Comments On Cheshire Footage - Lushman From: Rory Lushman <oubliette@currantbun.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:55:10 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 10:30:32 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Final Comments On Cheshire Footage - Lushman >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:00:01 -0400 (EDT) >From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com> >Subject: BUFOSC - Final Comments On Cheshire Footage >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 02:28:11 +0100 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: Major UFO Incident & Video - A Sceptic Writes - Easton >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Hi All, Final comments eh? Seems like we don't want to answer any more hard questions. Sorry for another long post. I hope we aren't boring the rest of the List with this but questions have to be asked. Those fed-up with this please skip these messages. Tim writes: >Despite the evasions, half and quarters truths, righteous >indignation and more besides several clear factors need to be >taken into consideration: Name the evasions. Jenny has asked you a number of times some pertinent questions, please do her the courtesy of answering them. >Whilst I am the personal target for some pretty low smears, By who? Always the victim! Take a look at the UpDates Archives for more of the same. When you ask Tim questions, it's seen as smearing him, that's how he wriggles out of it. >They also know that we respect their wishes, their confidentiality >and the spirit of their message. I will bring evidence to show this is slightly untrue in the very near future. >- Eric Morris and Karl Woods are not and never were friends, >close or otherwise. Try again. You were not there, period. Eric used to take a flyer each time his magazine was printed to the cinema, so that was more than twice like to say on another list. >Eric attempted, and failed, to put on a UFO promotional event >at the cinema managed by Karl Woods some three years ago. This goes back before then but you weren't around and again you are not qualified to answer this if you were not there. Eric and Karl knew each other quite well, simple as that. I'm not claiming they were best buddies. In Eric's own words from two separate issues of Intelligence, his old magazine and already pointed out by Andy, but here once again >>>"With all the new films coming out this year, showing >>>paranormal or alien activity, we have decided to do >>>reviews of future films. All the previews are courtesy of >>>Mr. Karl Woods, Manager of the Regal twin Cinemas in >>>Northwich. If you would like to find out which films >>>are now showing at the Regal, contact Mr. K. Woods at >>>this number," and >>>"Thanks must go to Carl of the Northwich >>>Regal Cinema. He is one of the few approachable cinema >>>managers, who also holds an interest in ufology. >>>Although mostly, and obviously, a film buff, he has given >>>generously to BUFOSC over the past months." I think these two separate pieces would suggest more than two meetings... "over the past months." And why was the fact that they had met in the past not been mentioned? It may not have any bearing on the case but if you are holding this back... what else are you not saying? Can we have an answer from Eric please.... but really from Eric, not written by you on his behalf. >The video tape itself is initially wobbly but improves after >the camera is placed on tripod. So what makes this the greatest UFO footage ever as claimed by your press release? Have you been offered any money for this video and if so, will Karl get any of it. Have you sought any money for this footage? Why am I asking if this is your final comment? Lets you off the hook. >Nick Pope did "actively assist" us in our enquiries - as I >stated initially on my hastily penned Press Release dated >17/7/00. His was a minor though important role and we are very >grateful for his help and support. I have crossed swords with >Nick before but last Xmas we agreed to bury the hatchet and to >turn over a new leaf Nice to hear but for what reason. James Easton asked but you never really answered if you still feel this. >>Can this possibly be the same Nick Pope of whom Tim Matthews, >>"Press Officer" of BUFOSC, said only a few months ago, "The >>guy's a joke and the fact that anyone takes him seriously is >>evidence of the total rot within Ufology". So what made you changed your mind... nothing to do with your video was it? Also I see now you're playing down his involvement to a smaller part, whereby originally you were all equal on this. >Since then, we have had very little contact. Nick himself has >been smeared by the same people now attacking BUFOSC, MAPIT >and LUFOS. Now you've seen the light, its all right to condemn others. Weren't you the one badgering Nick Pope on a TV programme demanding he answered about his alleged abduction. When its you its just legitimate questioning but when its others its a smear campaign. Your comments about Nick Pope make your statement invalid. >stated, in more general comments on this enquiry, that when >dealing ith the press, which is my appointed and voluntary task >for BUFOSC Why is it we only hear from you. At least at UFOIN we are all capable of answering for ourselves. Why have all statements got to come from you, where is Stephen, where is Eric In my opinion it sounds like you want to make sure no one slips up on your team. As it was Eric who discovered the best footage ever, shouldn't we be hearing from him. >my mail records hold some 10 messages held in full from >Devereux nd include two full articles for editing. I think more >than a passing relationship is thereby proven Wait, yet Eric spoke to Karl on at least the same amount of times but that is not more than a passing relationship. >1 - The skeptics have not seen the full footage And why is this. Why can everyone only see a small part of it. Why isn't the best bit being shown. >Would not assist in the Winter Hill case despite requests for >urgent assistance We have investigated it and it stinks - but more to follow... >They have lived up to all our expectations; Well you can't be disappointed then >Belittling investigators who disagree The pot calling the kettle black once more. Look how he has attacked Jenny, much of it not repeatable on this List. Aren't you accusing us of "smear" because we disagree... can't have it both ways. >Attacking the investigators I repeat. >>Can this possibly be the same Nick Pope of whom Tim Matthews, >>"Press Officer" of BUFOSC, said only a few months ago, "The >>guy's a joke and the fact that anyone takes him seriously is >>evidence of the total rot within Ufology". then >Investigating the investigators and not the evidence Surely I don't have to repeat it again. >Refer to my colleagues as a "gang" And what did you refer to UFOIN as in another message. Sorry to lower the tone on the List but wasn't it "WANKERS"? (evidence available) Apologies to the List for this comment but it needed saying as Tim is pretending he's being picked on, yet in other e-mails this is what we have to deal with. There is more like this but suffice to say the above makes the point and we don't want to labour the point and cause offence on this List. >This is simply not true and having met Woods, placing me at a >distinct advantage over the skeptics, I find him to be >business-like and honest. Because you've met him, you have the advantage, good reasoning. I know what I know, Eric and Karl met many more times than you are claiming. They've know each over for well over 5 years. >Lushman will try and pretend to know more than he really >does on the basis of his working within the cinema industry That's just coincidence. Too convenient for you though, because this little flaw was sussed. Once again and to bore the list, I was there, you were not. By the way, the names Rory. >Skeptics claim to "know" that the incident is a hoax but to >them Well there are so many holes in this case, you need to build a door to stop the draught. >Tell that to the many farmers in the midwestern US countryside >whose cattle have an unerring tendency to be mutilated by forces unknown Wait a minute, what's going on here. This can't be the same Tim Matthews who at a recent conference said this phenomenon was complete BS. >we supposed to pay the �50-�100 per hour to have it >professionally analysed Russ offered to do it but you wanted money for it. And if you didn't think he was qualified, why ask him in the first place. There are ways and you know it. If your so keen on sharing things, why will you not let other groups have a copy of the video to judge for themselves. You never know they might even be able to help. >There appear to be hotspots and one of these is near where the >Cheshire UFO was recorded...! Well at least it saves you travelling. >We also take the attacks upon us as evidence of our success and >profile. Or the fact that you might have it wrong. >The man who made this criminal accusation is also in the >background encouraging attacks upon me now. Another old ploy. Tell everyone you are being attacked, as are your friends but ask for names, they're never forthcoming. Many are claimed to be so serious the police should get involved but never seem to, why is this. Go back into UpDates Archives, we've heard this all before. He even tried this trick on me but we proved 100% that it was all lies. That was a classic UpDates posting. >I'm still here, BUFOSC is bigger and better than ever I would disagree. BUFOSC has painted itself into a corner from which, on this occasion, it will not escape due to its own greed and hype. >As we have said, this is our final comment on the Cheshire >Incident. Are we taking bets on this? On other Lists and private e-mails, this will go on and Tim knows it. He's just got to have the last word. I start the bet at �5. But we are not finished. Not because we want to smear him but more to expose the truth, much of which this List or indeed many others are not aware. Cheers Rory
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Re: Venezuelan Spectacular Sighting? - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 01:15:15 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 10:33:37 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Venezuelan Spectacular Sighting? - Hatch >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:56:27 -0400 (EDT) >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >Subject: Venezuelan Spectacular Sighting? >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> >>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:48:47 -0400 >>Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:33:26 -0400 >>Subject: UpDate: Venezuelan Spectacular Sighting? >>>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com> >>>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 17:45:12 -0400 (EDT) >>>Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:49:04 -0400 >>>Subject: UpDate: Filer's Files #29 -- 2000 ><snip> >>>VENEZUELA SPECTACULAR SIGHTING FILMED >>>CARACAS - On Saturday, July 22, 2000, an object of considerable >>>size, nearly transparent (given the volume of light it is >>>emitting) was filmed starting at 18:28 PM for more than thirty >>>minutes. It appears silvery in color, with a wide upper dome >>>and a fin on its lower hull shaped like an inverted cone. A >>>compass reading places it between 300 and 305 degrees, located >>>to the left of Simon Bolivar University but above Fuerte Tiuna. >>>Using the clouds as a screen, whose luminosity is hard to >>>observe without wearing dark glasses. It is hovering with an >>>almost imperceptible balancing motion, but one would say it is >>>completely motionless. More information to come. Thanks to the >>>Institute of Hispanic Ufology and Martha Rosenthal in Venezuela. >Ron, Geoge, List: <snip> >I wonder what the object did later and how it disappeared? Me too. How about a general overall shape, a rather fundamental little detail, no? >The details of the sighting, "...object of considerable size, >nearly transparent (given the volume of light it is >emitting)...silvery in color, with a wide upper dome and a fin >on its lower hull shaped like an inverted cone...hovering with >an almost imperceptible balancing motion, but one would say it >is completely motionless", sound like a textbook description of >a large research balloon. OK. I propose a little poll. (No fair looking at one another's answers now!) Please check one of the following: An "inverted cone" is one with the... a) Pointed end up, like an indian teepee [ ] b) Pointed end down, like an old fashioned ice cream cone. [ ] c) Pointed end to one side, like an "italian coffee pot " or a megaphone [ ] Remember, no cribbing here! Best wishes - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 04:29:34 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 10:37:11 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Velez >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:57:46 -0400 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >Subject: Re Open Letter to Elizabeth Carbenter and Gary Hart >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >>Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:35:46 -0500 >>Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And>Gary Hart - >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:50:49 -0400 >>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>Subject: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Hello Elizabeth, Gary, All, >>>I would like to make a very public request for a copy of the >>>list of names and addresses of the 140 abductees whose files >>>were sold. I am asking you Elizabeth and Gary because both of >>>you have told me repeatedly that you have this list. >>>It's time to notify these people that their privacy and >>>anonymity may have been seriously compromised. They need to be >>>able to decide for themselves whether they wish to pursue the >>>matter or ignore it. The point is; it is _their_ choice. They >>>cannot make any decision if they do not know. >>>John, >>Elizabeth might give you the list right away. I think the most >>responsible thing for me to do is to ask several people on it >>what they think. I have talked to them before and I may need to >>remove them or remove names of persons who do know and want >>their own anonymity. Even this is a sticky issue until approved >>or adjusted as requested by those involved, ok? I need to act >>responsibly as I have pledged to them to do so I will get back >>with you in a couple days. I, and they, sincerely appreciate >>your concern! >I see, it is alright for John Velez to ask for personal >information about abductees for his purposes, but it is not >alright for Carpenter to do something similar. Hmmm! >If someone gives me information in confidence, it is alright to >breech that confidence, if I think the cause is worthy? Hmmm! >Who is going to provide this information? How do they have >access to it? Hmmm! >Now we all know that John Velez has the highest motives, to >inform abductees of a breech of their confidence. Now if some >one else comes along with equally high motives to, say, refute >the Randle-Estes comment on many abductees' sexual orientation, >isn't that an equally worthy cause? Shouldn't they get a list of >abductee's names and addresses? >Update Readers, please cut and paste your own worthy motives >into this message and request further breeches of >confidentiality. >John, why don't you prepare a letter with your address, >telephone and E-mail and let those who hold this info send it >out for you? >I think it is time to _practice_ what is _preached_ around here! >Thanks, my two cents. >Jan "I am somewhat of hypocrite myself, but I am rather ashamed >of it" Aldrich Hi Jan, All, I left your post intact without edit because every question you raise is valid. My request was aimed at getting the notification of the abductees in question expedited. I really don't care 'who' does it as long as it gets done. These folks have been sitting on this whole issue for _years_ now. All I care about is that 'whoever' does the notification conducts themselves responsibly by not 'alarming' anyone unnecessarily. If one file went unredacted then there may be more. Such being the case I argue for the rights of these individuals to know and to be able to decide for themselves if they wish to pursue the matter either in civil court or via regulatory agencies. That is up to them and them alone. They cannot make that determination on their own behalf if they don't know Jan. That's why I asked for names. Read into that anything else that you may wish to. And yes, my request does raise serious questions. I just refuse to sit around with my finger firmly inserted in my blowhole. Which is precisely what was happening before I reported. Nobody knew squat and the good old Boys Club continued to do "business as usual." This kind of thing, (the transfer of unredacted witness files without their knowledge or consent) simply has to stop. You are very 'flip' about making remarks relavent to this sale of files that basically say, 'what did they (abductees) expect? And 'Buyer beware' and screw em, they should have covered their own ass. They should have known better and all that. Well, allow me tell you from experience that; when you are half scared to death and deeply confused you aren't always thinking clearly. Getting some immediate help/info/answers is the _only_ priority on the list. Not ever having been a 'ufologist' or familiar with any of the 'personalities' and literature I wrote to the first author whose book I had read in my search for answers. (Happened to be Budd in my case) But the farthest thing from my mind at the time was thinking that I needed a legal document before proceeding. Lessons like that are usually learned in hindsight. A man in an ambulance on his way to an emergency room is not thinking about the legal ramifications of the contract he is about to engage in with an unknown caregiver. (Whatever doctor happens to be on duty in the ER) All he hopes for is that the doctor can stop his heart attack. If the doctor turns out to be a quack (assuming the patient lived) the patient will then usually sue the doctor for malpractice. That's what happened here Jan. 140 people in need of assistance accepted it from the first caregiver they encountered and still have not found out that they were not given the best of treatment/ care. If we were talking about emergency room patients you'd be outraged. Because it's abductees you say, 'ah, they should have known better. What did they expect?' Not fair. Jan I don't care 'who' does the notifying as long as it doesn't go another _three_ years without doing. Regards, John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 04:51:57 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 10:41:50 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Velez >Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 00:04:15 -0400 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 00:20:18 -0500 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Let's begin lightly. If you weren't aware of the internal >>contradictions of your own above paragraph, let me point them >>out. On the one hand you say that children of abductees >>routinely report "entirely on their own" what sound like >>abduction experiences, but then go on to say "or so many >>abductees have said." >>So which is it? Have the children come forth on their own (and >>if so, to whom?), or have the abductees (presumably their >>parents) come forth for them? Big difference, I hope you would >>agree. >Oh, Dennis. I wish I had your imagination. Then, when I read >something that bothered me, I could refute it simply by making >things up. That's what you've done here, as you'll see if you'll >only take a deep breath and calm down. >Yes, the children come forth on their own. They come forth to >their own parents. Who else? My caveat -- "or so many abductees >have said" -- was just my attempt to be responsible, to put on >the record that my source for what these children do is their >abductee parents. Or, in one case, a non-abductee grandparent. I >haven't talked to any abductee children myself. (And wouldn't you >be horrified if I had?) >To make it really plain: I've heard and read so many accounts of >what children supposedly say to their abductee parents that I'm >willing to believe them. (Oh, and what I've read has most >powerfully been in letters or e-mails from the parents, not in >secondhand reports by abduction researchers.) But I was careful >to say that I haven't myself been present when any child has said >these things. Hi Greg, Sasquatch, All, My kids were 'reporting' all along! Stories about UFO sightings - from both of them on separate occasions and both times in the presence of other children who also claim to have seen the same thing. Reports from my son about how the sun was in front of his window in the middle of the night and how all these very bright lights came into the house and lit the whole place up. Dreams of being carried away by little people to silver subway cars that were floating above the house etc. But who in their right mind thinks that it may be 'alien abduction'? I know I didn't at first. For some really strange and odd reason I _never_ correlated the UFO sightings that I had had and all the really odd and unexplained memories of real, waking experiences, with what my kids (and wife) were telling me/reporting to me all along. It wasn't until I felt the pure shock of hearing others speak of the exact same odd happenings and details that I made the connection. And oh how it all fit together so neatly. Nothing else in life that I had encountered ever explained it _ALL_ so perfectly and completely. Granted, it's an apparently insane conclusion to arrive at. But... after all else has been considered/eliminated whatever is left over must be it. In our case it was UFO/alien intervention. Until something else comes along that fits or explains it as well as the ETH, I'm standing firm but open minded. The children tell it all as they are growing. It's just that like myself and my wife most folks know little or nothing of UFOs or alien abduction, and the last thing they would suspect would be that something from someplace else is entering their home and interacting with them in a clandestine manner. It's all just too crazy for the average person to contemplate. Until they find out that they are not alone. Regards gents, John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Gary - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 05:04:22 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:00:55 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Gary - Velez >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:34:49 -0400 >From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:35:46 -0500 >>From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:50:49 -0400 >>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>Subject: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>I think the most responsible thing for me to do is to ask >>several people on it what they think. >You really don't get it. Hello Ann, Gary, All, Gary I'm going to respond to your post to me here. We should get some things straight before things get too far out of hand and you piss off too many other people. Gary old bean, like it or not, you have become so embroiled in all of this that you have lost a lot of objectivity. Let the _abductees_ decide if they wish to pursue the matter. Get these poor people informed. (I don't care who does it as long as it gets done and done now!) If you concentrate, on UFO UpDates, on the issue of witness/abductee privacy and anonymity you will have really made a contribution to ufology and toward helping to unify a badly fractured community of individuals. Poke your head above the water and look around man. People are discussing witness/abductee rights on related lists all over. Something good and positive is coming out of this whole sad mess. I _know_ that you really do care. You don't have to sell me on that. I've been mad as hell at you but I have never doubted your sincerity. You are going to hang yourself and kill off a very important public discussion that has begun - the _one_ hope of preventing something like this from ever happening again - if you insist on making John Carpenter the focus. Do you understand what I'm saying? Does _any_ of it sound irrational to you? Focus on the issue not a public witch hunt. Think man, think! I haven't tried this hard to get through to somebody in a long time. I hope I'm not wasting my time. "Vengeance is Mine sayeth the Lord." Leave John to the abductees. As someone who obviously wants to make a positive contribution to ufology you should join in and help to promote the current threads that are discussing the issues of privacy and witness rights etc. Conducting a very public witch hunt on John Carpenter (or anybody else) will kill this issue quicker than cold water will separate two dogs in heat. I appeal to your intelligence, sense of fair play and your sincerity about how researchers should conduct themselves. Rise to the occasion and do your best, not your worst. Notify these poor people (finally) that their privacy and anonymity may have been compromised. No more time wasting on that one, okay? We will await your response/reply. Regards, John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:21:17 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:03:06 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Sandow >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:38:34 -0500 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>I think it would be helpful if they'd demonstrate that they know >>something about the subjects they're addressing. (It's possible, >>as Dennis has shown us, to know much about abductions and still >>know little or nothing about a particular area of the abduction >>debate.) >Greg, >My Lord, boy, are you referring to me, completely out of the >blue? >If so, let me append the following: >It's possible, as Greg has demonstrated on more than one >occasion, to promote acceptance of the possibility of alien >intervention without so much as a cursory recourse of the >current scientific information that suggests otherwise. >Unless, of course, you think otherwise. I do think otherwise. You talked about what you imagine abduction investigators do with children, without (apparently) actually knowing what they do. A comparable situation would be me deriding the scientific theories you like to cite, without actually knowing what they are. Let me know if I ever do that. Greg Sandow (In the spirit of John V's declaration of friendship, I want to say that I like Dennis and respect him, no matter how heatedly we argue!)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Re: BUFOSC - Final Comments On Cheshire Footage - From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:02:17 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:10:27 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: BUFOSC - Final Comments On Cheshire Footage - >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:00:01 -0400 (EDT) >From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com> >Subject: BUFOSC - Final Comments On Cheshire Footage >To: updates@sympatico.ca Hi, I am not going to waste this List's time tackling the points in Tim's long (and slightly enlightening) post. It is his final word to the List, apparently, so we can take stock of where we are. I will just note: 1: He has neither produced any evidence for, nor apology in consequence of, the utterly false claim to this List three days ago that I - personally - smeared the witness in my postings. He has been politely asked to do so and - in effect - run away. Despite attacking me personally and repeatedly, his one dispute over what I say is, that I characterised the sending of a press release reporting this case to media as being 'well organised'. Would that Tim attacked me so positively! All I ask is that you judge what this refusal to put up or shut up says about Mr Matthews. He just, presumably, hopes you will forget what he said. Dont. 2: Despite three perfectly polite requests for basic details of wind speed, direction, and the same figures for the object on the video we have again not been provided with any of this information. We are told research is expensive, time consuming, that the object corkscrews and seems controlled in (unscreened) images. As I am sure most of you realise, getting data on the weather is virtually the first thing any serious investigator does. It costs nothing and takes minutes. Judging object speed and direction from the footage and the scene is easy and costs nothing given that the investigator lives very near the site of the filming. Eliminating possible solutions follows from such basic data - which I would expect any UFO group could get together inside more than two weeks. As for being expensive - UFOIN - which he much maligns - works regularly with numerous scientists, research institutes, universities and photo labs. In a recent physical traces case (it actually happened about the same time as this Cheshire video case) we had worked with a world famous science facility and two university science labs within three days and had physical tests carried out for the huge expense of �0.00. How? Because our sober methods of research and desire to find answers (where possible and before running off to the media) is respected by interested research scientists working in the very same area that BUFOSC operates. As such - with an interesting case - they are as willing as we are to try to get to the bottom of it. Far from this being debunking, we usually solve cases but not always. Some mysteries have deepened through this kind of work and we are totally happy to say so because - whilst UFOIN members are individuals and have a range of views - many (and certainly myself) believe there are real UFOs of some sort behind some cases. But the basic point is clear - do your job seriously and objectively and you do not need vast sums or weeks of effort to get assistance. You can get exactly the co-operation needed to tackle cases thoroughly if you do the right thing. The data to eliminate this balloon theory has to be available. But its not being reported to you all. I have never said this tape does show a balloon, only that that has to be a viable option given the circumstances of the case - so, please, can we see the data that refutes the possibility. Hardly debunking or scepticism. Surely common sense and a reasonable request that 99% of ufologists that I know would answer without quibble. What makes BUFOSC so reluctant? I trust that like me you find repeated evasion disconcerting. Incidentally, you might find amusing that since this fiasco blew up UFOIN has attracted a number of sensible, scientific ufologists to the UFOIN eam - many well known names - who have asked to join our team having welcomed our stance. We did not need a global press release for this and it was never the intention but it does show that there are people very capable of seeing through hype and bluster and indentify that we really are trying to do good UFO investigation. Best wishes, Jenny Randles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Looking Through The Hubble With Dan Sheehan From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:11:40 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:19:26 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Looking Through The Hubble With Dan Sheehan Looking Through the Hubble with Dan Sheehan Danny's looking through the Hubble scope; you can hold him to account. He's wandered distant galaxies, traveled time -- he's been about. He might appear unsteady; you'd think he might be drunk, but you should see what HE has seen. You'd SEE you're thinking's bunk. He's been doing what you could be; the kingdom's here at hand, as it may BE we're on the *lip*, of change -- you understand? It's bigger than we could have thought and expanding as we speak -- its edge beyond the limits of the places we can peek. It just goes on, unending, in a glorious expanse that swirls cosmic fire in a multi color dance. It doesn't stop with rainbows, but descends to infra red; its paint then ultraviolet, on to x-ray (yes!), instead! It's pressures are incredible, and then pressure's light as mist -- bloody tatters rent to fragments, or you'd swear you'd just been kissed. In that space and time of distance there are *races* being born. With just one race per galaxy, there are thousands, billions -- more! These races ARE the multi-verse (!) -- the part that it rakes up . . . to check its own reflection, and perceive how *it* stacks up. It is *good* and it is *bad*, or it's *indifferent*, then, as hell. It wallows in the foulest slimes or rings its stellar bells. Sometimes it is a blessing, and sometimes it is accursed; it could be said they're much like us . . . that's for better . . . that's for worst. You have a trillion neighbors; you've never been alone. They wait outside the front doors of your squalid little *home*. Some wait with *gifts* (or curses), and some others wait *without*. They wonder when you'll open *doors* and, bravely, walk on out. They wonder why you linger when the truth is so damned plain. It drools just like a whitewash runs from fences in the rain. And oh, you'll feel SO foolish, then you'll hang your head in sorrow that you wasted all that precious time denying your tomorrows . . . ~~~ Dan's looking through the Hubble and can see, quite well, the trouble in the hardship and travail of human beings. He's witnessed real timelessness but his *skeptics* pule their dicklessness (!); their world views are specious centric screams! He's wandered where the black holes and the super novas are, so he's not impressed by dogma or a culture gone too far. He illustrates the petty, ones so *dead* with protestation that the lot of them (?) -- beyond contempt, and beneath his indignation! ~~~ So remember, fellow humans, when the watchers do appear, how you spent your time and effort here on Earth. You disrespected brothers (?) while you handicapped your sisters (?) just to keep that spot you covet near the hearth. You thought you had your reasons: They weren't the proper faith -- their color was objectionable, ( you have this thing with race). On the wrong side of the sullen tracks, they didn't speak your language -- their sex was just too *kinky* . . . or they ate a different sandwich? They didn't have the schooling -- they weren't as rich as *you* -- they were from another country, and, by rights, were mad at you? Well -- all of that's so laughable when you wake up to the truth. All your petty little bigotries just dissolve and fall from view. Cop at last to the reality that we NEVER were alone, and embarrassment shades cheeks bright red, and shame goes to the bone. Just look, with Dan, through Hubble, and discover you've been narrow. Discover insignifigance; discover you're a sparrow -- discover that you're not alone. That the *others* DO abound. Space is pregnant with potential. Work with Sheehan -- see it FOUND! Lehmberg@snowhill.com Yea, and I say unto you brethren <g>! Dan Sheehan may be the real deal. He realizes the folly of arguing amongst yourselves while others, perhaps superior others, stand in plain view (arms akimbo and perhaps tapping metaphorical watches), stealthily watching you with stunned incredulity as you defecate in your squalid bed and push it complacently down with your haplessly ulcerous feet . . . Mr. Sheehan is a lawyer -- and while I have to strain to keep from holding that against him, I must allow that he seems to be three other things as well. The first thing is that he appears ethical. In at the ground floors of the Karen Silkwood affair, the Watergate break in, and the tragedy of the latter Wounded Knee, he argued successfully for the rights of a contrived ignorant who exist precariously at the whim of an un-elected and tyrannous elite. The second thing (belying his apparently keen intelligence), concerns a seeming lack of regard for personal wealth. This second thing validates the first thing because the fatuous sentiment regarding the direct proportion of wealth to intelligence (". . . if he's so smart why ain't he rich"?) is, by no means, necessarily so. Some of us cross our arms at the guile implied by custom's laurel tree, and look askance at the largess suggested by ceremony's cornucopic horn of plenty! Some of us ask rather, "who has to pay so I can blithely play." Mr. Sheehan appears to be one of these. The third thing is that he is successful, and appears to choose not to use that success to provide for personal gain but use it, rather, to provide for a more GENERAL, EXPANSIVE, and WIDER HORIZONED success. Three pitches thrown, and three balls bashed decisively from the park. Dan Sheehan has loads of "there" there. I heard on the July 10th Rense program that he is going to put out the call for monetary support to fund an effort able to take FULL advantage of the enemy's own *weapons* of "custom" and "ceremony", and employ those weapons to DEFEAT that enemy. Who is that enemy? That enemy is ignorance. That enemy is the arbitrary. That enemy is the blithely convenient. That enemy is the un-elected policy maker and the elected tool that fronts for him. The enemy is institutionalized misdirection and half truth used to occlude a paradigm changing ufological reality that is detectable, inevitable, and likely bearing down on us like the proverbial freight train. He spoke of a contribution . . . a dollar a person . . . -- heh. When Jeff Rense announces the page on his site that points to a secure method of monetary transfer contributing to that enterprise . . . I hereby pledge TWENTY dollars. One dollar is to pay my OWN freight, and the nineteen others are to cover brothers and sisters too complacent or insolvent to pay their own. You can hear Mr. Sheehan yourself in the Rense show archives, if they're up yet. July 10th is the show date. Suspiciously, the archive for the 10th was garbled and unintelligible on its first release. An insider reported to me that "Yahoo dropped the ball." Hmmm. Believe me when I say that the contents of this show give every indication that that garbling could have easily been done by deliberate design to preclude it's convincing message . . . yes . . . the contents the broadcast are THAT foundation shaking. It is, truly, a show that MUST be heard. Listen yourself, and see if you don't agree. He can be heard at www.sightings.com in the Jeff Rensearchives for July 10th, and at http://www.mufonla.com/index.html in a talk almost two hours long. Dan Sheehan -- sir (!), go, do, and be! My support is pledged! -- ~~~~ EXPLORE Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his Fortunecity URL. http://www.alienview.com **Updated All the TIME** http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/witches/237/lehmberg.html JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually. He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected! "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, burned at a skepti-feebroid stake.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Spacenapping [was: Re: Selling Files] From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:02:27 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:17:55 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Spacenapping [was: Re: Selling Files] >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:10:56 -0400 >From: Peter Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Selling Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza: >>Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 10:29:46 -0400 >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Re: Selling Files >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> ><snip> >Dear Liz: >No, I don't entertain that notion, and nor does David Howard. >This isn't through lack of open-mindedness or discourtesy, but >because he knew and his family knew exactly where he was >whenever he was in narcoleptic sleep, and it was right in his >own home. If anyone wants to argue that *nonetheless* he was >"really" being abducted in some non-physical sense, I'm afraid >I'm not going to venture into that arid latitude of speculation. >The significance of his case is its apparent spontaneity and its >illustration of the problems represented by apparently real >memories. Hi, To further Peter's argument here in my boo... (noooo I won't get into that!) In my experience of UK abduction research I have encountered a number of cases where there is no question that an abduction like experience was reported by the witness whilst they had not physically travelled anywhere. In the case of one witness from Deeside, Wales, the witness was having a voyage to an intergalactic zoo in a UFO (not exactly your stands Grays abduction scenario but an interesting contactee/abduction hybrid). She was seen by her family prone on her bed in a deep catatonic state from which it took some time to wake her. Her visionary experience (for that is clearly what it was) had been sufficiently powerful that it would have been believed in as real had she been allowed to wake naturally and not interrupted. Only the accident of being seen during her 'away mission' provides the knowledge that this was not a literal reality. Now if this were an isolated case we would not have a cause to read too much into it. But it is far from that. Keith Basterfield and I discussed this at some length a few years ago (actually as a way to argue this out with Budd Hopkins as I recall since we were having lunch with him that day). We easily came up with half a dozen other cases of 'observed abductions' where the abductee stayed exactly where they were all the time. The classic Maureen Puddy case, from Victoria in Oz is one, of course, where two (far from sceptical) ufologists saw her describing her visit into a UFO as she stood in front of them with not a trace of a UFO or aliens visible to them. In another case (from South America) a witness was passed by in the street prone on the ground and assumed to be drunk whilst in fact they were having an abduction like experience. I even have had a deeply persuasive first hand experience. My boyfriend had stayed the weekend, driven off to work on his motorcycle in freezing weather and I had been concerned for his safety as he left. Being early I sat back on the settee in front of the fire worrying about his 30 mile ride. Then I heard and saw him return, we embraced and I said that I was pleased that he had turned back. It was as real as any experience I have ever had. Except that moments later I blinked and he was gone. Indeed I was sat back on the settee and could appreciate that in the hot room I must have fallen back to sleep, had a vivid dream that fulfilled my wishes and believed in it as real. Now the key here was that I was able to confirm that he never had come back - but driven on to work safely. This entire vivid and utterly convincing experience was an hallucination. Yet I am well aware that if I had had no way to 'quiz' the subject of my vision (eg if it had been my dead auntie or an alien) I would to this day not have any way to know how real this experience literally was. And in real abduction situations that's the problem witnesses tend to face. Now taken together the above two sets of data tell me loud and clear that there is a huge probability that even utterly convinced witnesses (who could pass a lie detector test - as I bet I could have done) might be certain they have had a true experience but that it is at least viable that it was a visionary (not a physically real) one. To develop this argument two things need to happen. Firstly, you need observed abductions of at least equal number and weight where the witness unequivocally was physically seen to be taken away. In other words they were literally spacenapped. Secondly, you need a mechanism by which UFO like hallucinations could convincingly occur - as just guessing this os what might happen is not enough. Taking the second first there is much such evidence - from Persinger's experiments and more - that indicates how energy fields triggered by some real light phenomenon can create effects in the temporal lobe that will be abduction like. As a pure vision this doesn't explain what's going on. But if the energy is associated with a physically real phenomenon seen within the atmosphere and interpreted in today's culture as a UFO (and I believe from lots of evidence that indeed it is) then we have a genuine 'object' that is seen and can be recorded (eg on film) from a distance. But at close proximity with certain people (and we have good clues from research studies as to the type of people we are talking about here - visually creative, unusually powerful early life recall, track record of ESP throughout their lives, prevalence for seeing imaginary playmates as children. etc) then this light phenomenon seemingly can induce powerful and utterly believed in visions. I think this phenomenon is real and we are beginning to discover a lot about what it is. I have made personal strides in this direction during the nine months that UFOIN has been quietly beavering away out of the limelight. As for 'observed abductions' that do involve physical kidnap. The examples are rare and isolated and don't yet match in number or quality the 'did not travel anywhere' category of abductions. That in itself is vital information. I believe Ufology has to focus on these cases as they are the key to ever being able to prove that there is any literal reality to alien abduction - if indeed there is. The data is not nil. There are interesting cases like the Dandenong Mountains affair. But in truth here this is a multiple witness abduction involving unrelated people who seem to share some memories. Its a significant case but it does not feature any uninvolved passer by watching the abduction (as in the hotly debated Manhattan Transfer case - which, sadly, I regard as one from which I cannot form too many opinions). Indeed many promising 'observed abductions' actually support the argument for an energy phenomenon UFO that is triggering a vision far better than a physical spacenapping. In the UK we have the famous Alan Godfrey case from Todmorden, where his abduction by a rotating vortex glow was not witnessed by any passers by on a busy road. But three independent sets of witnesses saw the object. So there is very strong evidence the UFO was physically real and had considerable energy. Very little evidence (bar subsequent hypnotic regression testimony that even the witness told me he cannot be sure about) that it was a physical abduction. In case after case the same pattern emerges. The Anders case from Lindholmen in Sweden, for example, where the energetic glowing UFO that clearly was physically powerful and could effect the environment was independently witnessed. The abductees memory that appears later to plug the missing time has no verification at all. It could be real memory of an actual experience. But it has to be highly probable that it was an induced visionary experience given the sum total of the data. With abductions the best analogy is sleep. We have excellent evidence that a process called sleep occurs and it is physically real. We have some evidence that certain people in sleep can have vivid visionary experiences (let us say lucid dreams as an example). These things we can accept as scientifically established. After that the argument is - are these lucid dreams simply powerful dreams or are they real flights within consciousness revealing hidden dimensions to the universe? Most cautious scientists would say - probably the former as it is backed by data that we know about - but the latter is not wholly impossible and yet requires a lot more evidence than we have so far if we are to consider it seriously. After all whilst sleep and dreaming are physical processes amenable to actual experimentation and data collection - the format and content of dreams are basically anecdotal and personal. If you think this through you will see why the analogy tells us a huge amount about the problems of abduction research. And why those who (like me) accept that there is sleep and dreaming but do not (as yet) accept that in dreams we really go to another universe are not the debunkers that we are often accused of being but, I think, adopting the correct scientific approach to this complex subject. Yes, we would be foolish to deny alien visitation as it is clearly scientifically viable. But in this subject ifs, ands and buts are too common and we have to form opinions on the hard evidence. That is not as thin on the ground as many profess. We actually have a lot of evidence along the lines I have just set out that direct the serious thinker who is willing to be open minded. Now I don't have any vested interest whatsoever in the truth about abductions. I am merely keen to discover what that truth might be. If we had good reason to believe these cases were alien in origin I would be scientifically excited as it would be a momentous occasion. But I am equally intrigued if instead they turn out to be deeply informative about the nature of human consciousness, our perception of reality, the workings of the brain and whatever this strange physically real energy phenomenon might be that would cause such visions to occur. Either way this is a genuinely interesting scientific challenge and in science you follow the trail of evidence towards wherever it leads. To me the path we are being guided along by the evidence seems pretty clear - although I have both eyes open for other possibilities. If the destination we arrive at is a disappointment to some, there is little I can do or say, because in the end truth leads where truth will lead. It really is as simple as that. Best wishes, Jenny
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Manso From: Luis R. Gonzlez Manso <lrgm@arrakis.es> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 10:28:03 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:23:43 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Manso >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:30:45 -0500 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Dear Dennis and List, You wrote: >Actually, something like this was undertaken within the UFO >community. I'm not up to date on its current status, which I >suspect is moribund. This was the MUFON Abduction Transcription >Project, under the direction of Dan Wright. At last count, it >had transcribed some 215 cases, and, no, I'm not sure whether >that number represents the total of individual cases covered, or >includes multiple sessions for different individuals. Occasional >summaries were published in the MUFON Journal, and, I believe, >maybe a MUFON Proceedings or two. Unfortunately, several major >abduction researchers declined to participate. Sorry to inform you, but after an electronic exchange last December when I was trying to prepare an article about this important Project for our Spanish readers, Dan Wright himself told me that the Project was closed. For the benefit of UpDates readers I will quote some of his words: The project I conducted from 1992-1998, titled the "Abduction Transcription Project", involved 262 separate abduction cases. Of those, male subjects (abductees) comprised 78 cases, female subjects comprised 174 cases, and 10 cases involved both male and female subjects (usually husband and wife). An individual case usually involves all the experiences of one person but may comprise multiple persons (e.g., a family) if all such events occurred while they lived together. Hence, the total number of case subjects is greater than the case total. [...] Twenty-one abduction researchers generated the tapes for transcription. Twenty were from the U.S., one from Canada. Because I could not find anyone who was both bilingual and willing to transcribe, we did not obtain tapes from any other country. Of the 21 researchers, each of three contributed tapes on only one case; one sent tapes on three cases; and each of two sent tapes on four cases. So, tapes on the remaining 248 cases were contributed by fifteen researchers. (My Note: Between only 4 researchers (Smith, Haines, Carpenter and Nyman) accumulate almost half of the cases) [...] The Project has two basic products: 1. The Master Transcript Index is a 300-page volume containing an alphabetical, cross-referenced listing of over 2.000 separate groupings of words and phrases uttered verbatim by the subjects on tape describing their experiences. 2. The Root Factor Index divides the aforementioned terms into 54 topics in order to group similar event characteristics: entity appearance, behaviors, procedures and communications; the ship�s outward appearance, interior layout and furnishings; imagery and manipulations of the subject's consciousness; the presence of "hybrid" beings and their actions; "irregular settings", and much more. ---------- I prepared a long and detailed questionnaire inquiring about the Project, his conclusions and his two MUFON Proceedings' papers etc. and asked for a copy of those final products for our Spanish UFO research foundation (www.anomalia.org) even offering to pay any reasonable price. His answer: "After further consideration, I have decided not to convey further information about the abduction-related project I managed." [...] "In that you revealed to me recently that you do not believe UFOs are of unearthly origin, I must say that I do not have the time, the energy or the patience to debate the matter, only to have my raw data dissected for the purpose of showing me the 'errors' in my analysis. That project was a chapter in my life that is over. From time to time, it remains useful when MUFON members ask for correlations to something that has occurred in one of their cases. It will continue to serve that purpose and no other." ------ I naively stressed that I did not want any debate, just the raw information to reach my own conclusions, but it seems that I am too skeptical for him. The point is that a painstaking work is being kept under wraps, and nobody (except MUFON members) can access it. MUFON has the right to benefit of its efforts, but the information should be freely shared (at least among serious researchers... as I considered myself :-))
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Salvaille From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:16:03 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:25:01 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Salvaille >Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 00:20:18 -0500 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:27:21 -0700 >>From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.coAbductee Files/Our Childrenm> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >>Children have often been involved in abduction work. It may come >>as a surprise to James [Easton] and perhaps to others, but children of >>abductees routinely -- and entirely on their own -- report what >>sound like abduction experiences. Or so many abductees have >>said. <snip> >Sorry, Greg, but this is a no brainer. If a child is >experiencing problems in this area, the last thing he or she >needs is someone trying to interview them and/or extract >additional information. The proposition is absurd on its face. >What can Budd or Dave possibly hope to learn from an >inarticulate child that they couldn't learn from an articulate >adult? <snip> >Children are children. I'm sorry, but an abstract artist and an >historian have no business, let alone a right, to be conducting >follow up interviews with children about _anything_. This is >wrong behavior on their part, pure and simple. >You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see it as such. And I >don't care how personably honorable Hopkins and Jacobs are: >_this is not their purview._ <snip> Dennis, Greg and List, Allow me to comment on Dennis' politically incorrect positions. My 7-year-old daughter has always had sleep problems: talking, kicking, shouting, you name it. This seems to be in the family, as one of my brother's kid did/does have similar problems, as I did when I was a child. When she was 4, my daughter already had an opinion on UFOs (not that we ever, ever, talked about the subject - who do you think I am, some kind of freak?): Martians came in flying saucers and Extra-terrestrials came from Jupiter. When she was 5, she made a drawing that would have driven Hopkins right to our home: long arms, big slanted eyes, elongated head. The creature ultimately happened to be... Spiderman. <snip> >Short of all caps, can I stress this strongly enough? >Unless you have some supercompelling reason for including >childrens's comments in the investigation of UFO abductions, why >not leave the poor babes alone? >Ie., leave the children out of it. Period! >I'm appalled and embarrassed to think that you would suggest >otherwise. <snip> Right on the money, Dennis. Present abduction research is in the hands a Convention of Butchers pretending to have the skills of surgeons. My best, Serge Salvaille
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Gary - Kaeser From: Steve W. Kaeser <Steve@konsulting.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 12:26:31 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 12:51:51 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Gary - Kaeser >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 05:04:22 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Gary >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto updates@sympatico.ca John V., Gary, Ann, all- There are a number of issues raised here, but I think we all tend to agree on several points. That the abductees involved should be notified that they are included in this sale is probably a point that we all agree on. How that should be accomplished is open for debate and I'm not sure that further distribution of a list that should have remained private (regardless of who is to get it) helps the situation at this point. While some on this list have expressed the belief that John can act as spokesman for the abductees in this, there are likely some who have never heard of John and wouldn't want their name given to a stranger. From the perspective of a researcher, there is also the problem of locating people who tend to move around a lot. I have spoken to several abduction researchers who have attempted to follow up with former subjects and been unable to locate any trace of them. Unfortunately, this is probably more the rule than the exception since we are such a mobile society. I agree that the abductees will have to deal with John C. and his actions, but the only way to carry this forward will be to take their complaints to the Board of Social Workers in Missouri. An official complaint form can be obtained and they will begin an investigation into any alleged violation of State regulations. It does not bode well that the civil complaints were apparently settled out of court last year, but it wouldn't hurt to have the State agency review it. That MUFON was aware of this sale and said nothing is unsettling. MUFON is a signatory on the Code of Abduction Research Ethics (or whatever it's called) that was formulated by Gotlib in 1994, and it would seem that this sale is a clear violation of that agreement. I would ask that State and Regional Directors for MUFON contact the leadership and find out why this agreement was ignored. I still have the impression that the full story has yet to be told, but at this point all Carpenter and MUFON have to do is sit back and watch everyone tear each other apart on the "lists" and the status quo remains. Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Re: Looking Through The Hubble With Dan Sheehan - From: Steven G. Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>? Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:26:55 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:54:49 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Looking Through The Hubble With Dan Sheehan - >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:11:40 -0500 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> >Subject: Looking Through The Hubble With Dan Sheehan >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >You can hear Mr. Sheehan yourself in the Rense show archives, if >they're up yet. July 10th is the show date. Suspiciously, the >archive for the 10th was garbled and unintelligible on its first >release. An insider reported to me that "Yahoo dropped the >ball." Hmmm. Believe me when I say that the contents of this >show give every indication that that garbling could have easily >been done by deliberate design to preclude it's convincing >message . . . yes . . . the contents the broadcast are THAT >foundation shaking. It is, truly, a show that MUST be heard. >Listen yourself, and see if you don't agree. He can be heard at >www.sightings.com in the Jeff Rensearchives for July 10th, and >at http://www.mufonla.com/index.html in a talk almost two hours >long. Please also note that Dan Sheehan originally put forth his concept for a funded tribunal on the July 6 Coast to Coast AM show which is still up in archive on the site: http://www.coasttocoastam.com SB
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: John Carpenter Responds From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson@alienjigsaw.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:42:32 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 15:04:16 -0400 Subject: UpDate: John Carpenter Responds John Carpenter's Response This is being posted with permission. _______________ Dear Katharina, The main reason I had not responded for a long time is that I was never called or asked by anyone for 3 years to respond to this issue. I only recently became aware of the Internet gossip. I have to be informed to be able to respond. I just now received your e-mail as I have been off-line for 3 weeks, so that is why I had not written you regarding your e-mail. I have also just read quickly your Web posted article. Five years ago, when Robert Bigelow was assembling his Science Board of highly-esteemed professionals from all fields of science (Psychology, Psychiatry, Geology, Near Death, Religion, Paranormal Studies, et cetera, plus 2 astronauts who walked on the moon), I thought I was furthering the scientific side of research by being able to provide, confidentially, some good data for their scientific analysis. I coded the cases involved and blacked-out identifying data. Despite what people believe, most of the information was paperwork: a few pages from some, more from others. I was compensated for my time, costs, and trouble to do so. I _never_ felt that I was betraying anybody, and I knew NID's scientific and educated review of the material might be extremely helpful as well as highly secretive. We have longed for objective professionals and talented scientists to look into these matters since so many scoff or fear being ridiculed if they do. Mr. Bigelow had no interest (or time) to study any of it himself. It was never for him! In fact, he tells me that the board has never taken the time to look at any of it either. So, I understand the information has basically sat in a closet, collecting dust. This project was not all that different from the 900 hypnosis transcripts that were collected from 20 researchers for analysis by MUFON's new computer. It was called "The Abduction Transcription Project" (which Bigelow helped fund) and was well-known to MUFON because reports were published on this data. I doubt that consent forms were collected for all of those 900 sessions either. I would also like to add another point. A number of the abductees who were involved in an attempt to sue me - which was apparently dropped after my lawyer explained the truth of the matter to their lawyers - were abductees who had already published their own experiences publicly, openly, and freely. Or they had spoken openly for national TV media, talk shows, UFO conferences, international media, and the press such as USA Today, Woman's World, and others. Their hypnosis sessions were published publicly. So what could I do to "expose" their material or break confidentiality beyond what they had already done? If one reveals one's private material so openly to the public, why would they be so concerned about what I did, in such a careful, coded, masked, and highly confidential manner, to a board of scientific minds? I never ever wanted to hurt anyone. I am just sick over the hurt that has been caused. I always protected the abductees I worked with from public wolves and insensitive exposure so that they would not be hurt. I cannot stand the thought that I would be seen as some kind of insensitive, unethical criminal. _All_ of my cases _know_ that I treated them very well and with great compassion. That has not changed on my part, but boy has my reputation been trashed. All that hard work - and a wonderful new book to help the field tremendously - is gone if that is the way everybody wants it. Now I am accused on the Internet (as gossip grows) of wild sexual affairs with my clients, sex with animals, abuse of children, financial gouging of clients, fake diplomas, no "real" hypnosis training, and no experience in Psychology. I expect that someone will come up with me being gay eventually - just wait... By the way, to head off another rumor, it is claimed that one abductee had her file returned with nothing blacked out. Guess who? My ex-wife and probably the original source of this whole mess. She gave her permission because it was not her married name and she knew what I was doing without any reservations at all. She also has her original file and could make copies of anything and claim it came from Bigelow. My ex-wife Elizabeth knew all along I was not doing anything wrong, but she swore at the time of our divorce 3 years ago that she would do everything and anything to ruin my reputation. What can I say? I am a good person and a good researcher who wants nothing but the best for everyone and I want to keep helping with our research Naively, I probably did a dumb thing in hindsight, but should my entire reputation be trashed forever? I still have an exciting book I want to contribute to the field, but paranoia from abductees may halt it or kill it. Would I do it again? Hell no. I care more about my clients and abductees than any project. -- John Carpenter, MSW, LCSW
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Gary - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:03:44 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 15:25:09 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Gary - Velez >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:57:45 -0500 >From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:37:52 -0400 >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart - Hammond >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Gary: >>The most responsible thing you can think of to do is pass the >>buck one more time? Just get off your wishy washy butt and get >>on the phone! Either phone these people or word a _very_ tactful >>letter, or fax them or e-mail them. Just do something for god's >>sake. >>Liz Gary responds to Liz: >Oh, Liz is out, too. Interesting. No further responses to Liz, >Ann, John unless something really imaginative is said. You seem >to have gotten lost somewhere. We, the list members who know who >they are are doing what needs to be done. Bye. Gary Wow! Remember that song "True Colors"? Man are you showing yours Gary! Declarations such as "Liz is out. No further responses to Liz," and "Ann, John unless something really imaginative is said. >We, the list members who know who >they are are doing what needs to be done. Bye. Gary is simply _unacceptable_ Mr. Hart! Reality check: Do you know who Ann Mulvey is? Are you aware that as we speak all of these posts are being shared, read, and discussed over at the CompuServe UFO forum by who knows how many people? Are you aware that UFO UpDates has a couple of thousand subscribers world wide who in turn repost the material to more local lists? Many of the members of this List are very well known and respected individuals in the field? Authors, researchers, webmasters, journalists, publishers, as well as many witnesses and experiencers. Jan Aldrich and the folks over at Project 1947 have a lively and active dialog going on the subject of witness/abductee rights to privacy and anonymity. UpDates is a more 'public' UFO list. Project 1947 is composed of researchers, investigators, authors, and other 'topic related' individuals. It's an "invitation only" e-mail list. UFO groups and researchers/authors/investigators in Europe and all over the planet are watching and listening. Errol Bruce-Knapp and Mike Woods have had me on their radio/Internet program 'Strange Days... Indeed' discussing this subject. They have a respectable sized and intelligent listening audience. Dude, do you have _any_ concept or idea about how much light is shining down on you right now? How many people are studying watching, analyzing you as well as the progress and the give and take on this topic? If you think that you can simply "kick kids out of _your_ club" and then "take your ball home" so that no one else can play you are in a _deeply_ delusional state. I'm fairly certain that when you initially joined MUFON and took their "investigator" course, that you wanted to 'do something' to make a contribution or whatever to ufology. Is this so? Then if so, what kind of a 'name' do you think you are making for yourself when you; a. Come on this List and deceive people. (not telling them that you and EC had the list of names) In fact, you played dumb about it knowing that Ann Mulvey and others were doing their best to get NIDS to do the notification. b. Dismiss them ala: "John is out! Ann is out! Liz is out!" and then summarily dismiss everyone else with a curt; "bye, don't worry, it's being taken care of," and all without so much as a tip of the hat. Man are you insane? You have to at least be kidding right? If you think that you can blow me or Ann or any other concerned individuals, (the members of several UFO lists and UFO forums that are actively following all of this closely) off of this case and simply walk away; someone must have dumped LSD into your local reservoir! Stop drinking the tap water. It's affecting your mind! The UFO world is watching and listening to you Mr. Hart. What are you going to do? Hide? <laughing my ass off!> Did you not see the kind of pressure that was being put on NIDS and Bigelow to notify the abductees? What do you think is going to happen to _you_ if you simply blow everyone off and say 'Bye'. Are you laboring under the delusion that you will be left alone to do as you please? Somebody get this boy a cup of coffee! Or bring me a baseball bat. Sure, you can 'disconnect' if you want to. But if you planned any kind of future as a ufologist or author of UFO related material you will simultaneously trash your own future 'career'. No one will ever want to hear another word that you'll have to say. You can say 'goodbye' to us _and_ to ufology! Cheeses, Mary and Joseph, what a disappointment you turned out to be. Not much of a man or a person either. It seems that all you're really good at is trying to make yourself look good. When it comes time to _actually_ do something you take your ball and run home. I knew kids like you when I was growing up. I didn't think much of them either. A word to Ann and all at Compuserve: I'm sorry that I let it go on as long as I did. I know you guys were sincerely working hard on your end to get some action out of NIDS on behalf of these abductees. I was waiting for Gary to say something himself. Without my "prodding him" to do so. Days started to turn into weeks and when he finally does say something, he plays 'dumb' about having the list! That's when I blew up and wrote that post calling him a liar and informing everyone that he and Elizabeth Carpenter (and God knows how many other people) have copies of the list of names of the abductees involved. I'm sorry now that I waited for Gary to do the right thing. It turns out that he wasn't worth waiting for! You guys have _no idea_ what a no anesthetic tooth-puller this whole business has been for me. I've been learning as I go along. :) But don't worry, your efforts with NIDS were not wasted I'm sure. Maybe after all this is said and done and the poor folks involved are notified we can all turn our collective attention on Mr. Hart and educate him a little about working and playing well with others. It's about time he learned. ;) *Yo Gary: Remember Chicago? The whole world is watching, the whole world is watching, the whole world is watching..... <G> Regards to All, John Velez, Rapidly aging Hippie Freak who still cares! -- ______________________________________________ A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center - www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm jvif@spacelab.net "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ______________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Abductee File Case Not "Mysteriously" Dropped From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson@alienjigsaw.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 15:07:18 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 16:29:06 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Abductee File Case Not "Mysteriously" Dropped This is to correct an inaccurate statement in my opinion piece that was published last week: I recently found out that the abductee file case was not "mysteriously" dropped as I was led to believe. It was either dropped because of a lack of money to pay the attorneys or it was because there was an inability to prove damages, i.e., that most of the abductees had already published their information, including their hypnosis transcripts. For all we know, it could have been dropped for both reasons. Thanks, K. Wilson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: National UFO Information Week Display From: Stan Gordon <paufo@westol.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 15:12:20 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 16:31:08 -0400 Subject: UpDate: National UFO Information Week Display I am organizing a National UFO Information Week Display which will be held on August 12, 2000, at the Westmoreland Mall, Route 30 east, Greensburg, Pennsylvania. The event which will be staffed all day, will feature UFO photographs, government UFO documents, magazines and books, videos, and displays on the reported 1947 Roswell, New Mexico, and December 9, 1965 Kecksburg, PA UFO crash incidents. This event is free to the public. UFO organizations, researchers, publishers, etc. who would like to send promotional materials to hand out to the public for the display, should send them to me ASAP at: P.O. Box 936, Greensburg, PA USA 15601. My UFO Hotline number is 724-838-7768. Stan Gordon
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:49:23 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 16:42:46 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mortellaro >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:16:03 -0700 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 00:20:18 -0500 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:27:21 -0700 >>>From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.coAbductee Files/Our Childrenm> >>>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> ><snip> >>>Children have often been involved in abduction work. It may come >>>as a surprise to James [Easton] and perhaps to others, but children of >>>abductees routinely -- and entirely on their own -- report what >>>sound like abduction experiences. Or so many abductees have >>>said. ><snip> >>Sorry, Greg, but this is a no brainer. If a child is >>experiencing problems in this area, the last thing he or she >>needs is someone trying to interview them and/or extract >>additional information. The proposition is absurd on its face. >>What can Budd or Dave possibly hope to learn from an >>inarticulate child that they couldn't learn from an articulate >>adult? ><snip> >>Children are children. I'm sorry, but an abstract artist and an >>historian have no business, let alone a right, to be conducting >>follow up interviews with children about _anything_. This is >>wrong behavior on their part, pure and simple. >>You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see it as such. And I >>don't care how personably honorable Hopkins and Jacobs are: >>_this is not their purview._ ><snip> >Dennis, Greg and List, >Allow me to comment on Dennis' politically incorrect positions. >My 7-year-old daughter has always had sleep problems: talking, >kicking, shouting, you name it. This seems to be in the family, >as one of my brother's kid did/does have similar problems, as I >did when I was a child. >When she was 4, my daughter already had an opinion on UFOs (not >that we ever, ever, talked about the subject - who do you think >I am, some kind of freak?): Martians came in flying saucers and >Extra-terrestrials came from Jupiter. >When she was 5, she made a drawing that would have driven >Hopkins right to our home: long arms, big slanted eyes, >elongated head. The creature ultimately happened to be... >Spiderman. ><snip> >>Short of all caps, can I stress this strongly enough? >>Unless you have some supercompelling reason for including >>childrens's comments in the investigation of UFO abductions, why >>not leave the poor babes alone? >>Ie., leave the children out of it. Period! >>I'm appalled and embarrassed to think that you would suggest >>otherwise. ><snip> >Right on the money, Dennis. >Present abduction research is in the hands a Convention of >Butchers pretending to have the skills of surgeons. >My best, >Serge Salvaille Hi Serge, List and EBK; Serge, I've been reading all your posts. I have always found you to be respectful and sensible. Unlike me. Anyway, I must ask these questions of you. By the example of your own experience (Spiderman) and your comment over researchers: >Present abduction research is in the hands a Convention of >Butchers pretending to have the skills of surgeons. Well, maybe a little strong for me, but I won't doubt that there is truth in that sentence. My concern is the example of the child's drawing. By this, I am sure you mean that kids can and do make mistakes and often, parents make worse mistakes by virtue of their overreaction, especially if the parents are perceived abductees. If the parents cannot determine the truth of the child's perceptions, then seeking the advice of a professional is probably justified. But who? A psychiatrist or his ilk? Likely as not. Physicians specializing in childhood illnesses? The problem which abductee parents (or parents who suspect abduction of the child) face is that there is no doubt about the fact that traditional medics will almost never support the hypothesis of abduction. On the chance that this has occurred, it will never be brought to surface by traditional medics. And worse, the parent and/or child will be marked for life with the scarlet "C" on their farheads. ("C" for Crazy). So they seek the advice of the professional researcher. There are good people out there who are more than your (and sometimes my) definition of researcher, and who can ferret out the truth or come close. Perhaps even merely eliminate the theory of abduction. Most researchers with whom I have had some exposure will first attempt to _rule out_ the abduction scenario. Then they will refer the child to traditional medics. There are so many young children out there who have had experiences for which there is no explanation. I happen to be one of those. Many abductees, after growing up, seek out psychiatrists. I did before I reached the age of 20. On my own. I had some very strange phobias for a young man and needed to know why. By 1990, several psychiatrists told me that I was sane by any definition one applied to the word. I wonder if that diagnosis would have changed, I had told them that I perceived that I was abducted by aliens. See what I mean? In the case of parents and their children, the diagnosis would expand from children to parents. Which is why I disagree with Dennis Stacey's comment about such phenom not being in the medical literature. People just don't want that kind of grief and finger pointing. And I do not blame them one dot. Parents just don't want to go through that embarrassment. Jim Mortellaro
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - From: Peter, The Duke of Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 16:53:28 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 17:30:40 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - Compliments of the Duke to Dr Gesundt & his Gripewater Well. >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 00:48:48 -0400 (EDT) >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >I seriously doubt that your words really mean what >you appear to intend them to mean. To be mistaken about our >experiences is the key set. It's the one which I consider >insulting. Don't really give a rat's ass about how your friend >takes it, I am answering for me, not him. (1) I said what I meant. John and I can disagree non-violently about the nature of his experiences. (2) Why are being insulted? I was referring to his experiences, not yours. >However I am sincerely impressed that such >as you may be on Velez "good guy" list. Yeah, but so what? It doesn't stop me getting flak from him. Which is the way it should be. >cripes, Duke, this of all places ain't the place to bitch about >how little you think of the truth of other peoples' memories, Why not? You want everyone to agree with you? LOL >How the hell do you think Gesundt gets to post here. >Anyway? I have occasionally wondered. But then EBK is a tolerant fellow, and sometimes through the mist of your humor you do make a telling point or two. But to me, this time, not a lot. Viz: >Just don't come back with that bull dingie about how much >you doubt the hard evidence of abductees. The one in their >memories. That, sir, sucks big time. It's insulting to me. I've read tons of stuff on the nature of memory and hallucination. The problem is simply that a memory, no matter how "real" to the memorizer, is by itself no proof of a material event. The problem with an hallucination is that it seems utterly real: that's what makes it an hallucination. Jenny Randles handily has just given us a row of "non-physical abductions" and a neat living phantasm case of her own. To call something an hallucination or a false memory is _not_ to suggest that the experient is in some way nuts -- they're very common, by all estimates. I don't know what your memories are based on, and wouldn't (without a lot of work with you) presume to opine. Nor have I done so. But I find nothing out there in the world that suggests anyone should automatically assume you're remembering something real, and nothing to suggest that repeating that commonplace is per se insulting to you (or anyone else with funny images in their head). If you want real insults, I got loads, but why should I waste my famous acerbic wit on someone who doesn't deserve insulting? :-) best wishes Potatosoup D. Manganese Absolutely Genuine Aristocrat
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Gary - Mulvey From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 17:36:45 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 21:08:34 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Gary - Mulvey >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:51:52 -0500 >From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:50:49 -0400 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >The list of names is not the issue of main importance. Ethics >are. You have your facts sorely mixed up so the list issue is >off the table for discussion. Ethics indeed. If you had done the right thing to start, you would have found yourself in a much happier position right now, but you didn't. You weren't upfront Gary. You lied to me and this List. All you had to do was start out by saying that you had the list and there was a plan of action in the works by a committee of people from this list, that you had, and that this plan would ensure that all abductees would be notified. You didn't do that. This BS fest was your doing and to add insult to injury, you have the nerve to publically state that going after John Carpenter is more important than notifying those families. Have you given any consideration to how those families who are still left swinging in the wind to date, will feel when they realize that you put their families well being on the back burner so that you could go after John Carpenter? >Some of the list members comments are below, by the way: >Written by a friend: >I wrote to the abductees whose addresses I have and brought this >post (John's) to their attention. So far, these are the responses: >Marilyn says, "I do NOT want this fella involved. Leave it up >to us and Gary to take care of this. So my answer is absolutely >NOT!" >Sandy says, "No....I don't think this fella needs our names, >eventually we can get everyone notified ourselves." >So that's what 2 of the 140 think about John Velez contacting >the individuals on the list. Sorry Gary, I've already heard from one of your 'friends' and quite frankly, I think I'd be foolish at this point to believe these 'friends' even exist. >You have your facts sorely mixed up so the list issue is off >the table for discussion. It's you who have 'mixed up' the facts, which nose-dived your own credibility. If you feel the need to withdraw from this discussion, do so, but don't think for a milisecond that you can dictate issues of discussion to the rest of us. As John pointed out - there are literally thousands of people watching from all areas of the web. I'm sorry that you tripped yourself up and thusly got tangled up in this discussion Gary. You are obviously out of your league. I just hope for the sake of the remaining families that somebody on that list, who is aware of what's gone down, has the brains to realize that notifying the others is the first priority. Vendetta issues, legal, emotional, imagined or otherwise - can wait. Why this is so hard for you to comprehend indicates a serious loss of objectivity. That's not good for you, but it's especially not good for those you claim to be helping. Think about that please. Ann
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Stacy From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 17:14:24 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 21:10:21 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Stacy >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:21:17 -0400 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >I do think otherwise. You talked about what you imagine abduction >investigators do with children, without (apparently) actually >knowing what they do. Greg, If you're saying that I don't know how, precisely, Budd Hopkins deals with children on each and every occasion, then I stand convicted, guilty as charged. By the same token, I doubt whether you're familiar with the child- interviewing techniques of _most_ abduction researchers, either, unless you're getting around much more than I think you are. And, judging by the available literature, there are more coming online every day. But the point here is not whether Budd does OK by kids or not. Regardless of what one thinks or would wish, Budd is a trend- setter. If he brings children into the matrix, then lesser-lights following in his footsteps will inevitably assume that they're fair game (so to speak) as well. The question is not so much how children should be handled, but whether they should be handled in such a context at all. What do you do if someone's child tells you that doctors took them away and made them watch TV? Do you ask them to make a drawing of the doctors? Yesterday, I took my 8-year-old to his grandmother's. As I understand it, four invisible Pokemons went with us, two of which we actually had to ride on, the car I've been using in the past apparently not being up to the task. Should I follow up this situation with polite questioning and ask for illustrations? I would be relieved to hear that Budd (or anyone else), when interacting with a child, first runs through a checklist of prosaic explanations before arriving at the conclusion that aliens are involved. Otherwise, I hope you'll trust my skepticism, or is that cynicism, in this matter. I'm assuming you don't have any abductee-age brats of your own. Ditto, Budd, Dave and John. In lieu of same, I suggest you all sit down and watch about eight hours straight of the Kid Channel on cable or Saturday morning network cartoons, and then explain to me, or anyone else, just how it is that you plan to separate the content of same from a child's remarks that doctors took him away and made him watch TV (or anything similar)? Don't know about y'all's, but my kid comes forth with all sorts of remarks and assertions on his own that don't require any investigative follow up, or any inadvertent invitation to interpret same as a literal, physical event. (God, I love the smell of alliteration in the morning!) FWIW, he also suffers from nosebleeds. Bottom line: if most of us agree that hypnotic regression of adults entails potential pitfalls, then what on earth do any of us have any business doing interviewing children about possible alien abductions? What is there possibly to be gained thereby that shouldn't be overweighed by considerations of connected harm? The last time I looked, Budd Hopkins (not to single him out) was an abstract artist, ufologist, and author -- not a child psychologist or therapist. I reiterate an earlier question of mine that goes unanswered: Why, if childhood abduction/disturbances are so common, haven't they showed up in the pediatric literature prior to the advent of the UFO abduction literature? Hmmm. >A comparable situation would be me deriding the scientific >theories you like to cite, without actually knowing what they >are. Let me know if I ever do that. I don't think I'm deriding childhood abduction allegations so much as asking whether they shouldn't be simply recorded and passed over, and their originators left largely out of the picture. I see no particular compelling reason why the interaction between child and UFO investigator should continue much beyond that, given: 1) the law of diminishing returns (what are we likely to learn from children that we don't already know from adult accounts?); 2) any possible harm or trauma that might accrue to "solidifying" what, in other circumstances, would be treated as normal childhood experiences and events. If you have compelling arguments against the above, I'm all ears. Dumbo ears, in fact. >(In the spirit of John V's declaration of friendship, I want to >say that I like Dennis and respect him, no matter how heatedly >we argue!) Ditto here, at the risk of further offending the Duke of Mendoza, who, as we all know, is easily offended, unlike the Bishop of Canby. Dennis Stacy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 26 UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Velez From: John Velez<jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 19:30:25 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 21:14:40 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Velez >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:42:32 -0400 >From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson@alienjigsaw.com> >Subject: John Carpenter Responds >To: updates@sympatico.ca >John Carpenter's Response >This is being posted with permission. >_______________ >Dear Katharina, >The main reason I had not responded for a long time is that I >was never called or asked by anyone for 3 years to respond to >this issue. Hello John, Many (including myself) have been trying to reach you for some time. I'm glad that you finally took the time to post some kind of public statement on your own behalf. I'll keep this as brief and to the point as I can. Would you please be so kind as to _inform_ the 140 clients whose files you sold that they were in fact transferred to another (other than yourself who they first reported to) and that you have responsibly and completely redacted the files for any identifying information. This would go a long way towards 'putting things right' with the abductee subjects involved. Although I'm still a bit puzzled about how the audio and videotapes that were also a part of the package were properly edited to erase faces, voices, and other identifying data. One other major point: If one file was submitted 'un-sanitized' what kind of assurances can you provide to your other 139 clients that _all_ of their files were properly redacted? John, whether it's in the ufological Queensbury Rules book or not, you really should have sought the consent of your clients _before_ selling their information and reports. _That_ is what this is all about and not the "washwomen talking over the fence" type of 'gossip' that you are painting it to be. Minimizing the potential violation to the privacy and anonymity of these abductees by referring to the legitimate concerns of others as "gossip" isn't going to endear you with anyone. You paint a 'noble' picture as to your reasons for selling the files. Helping to advance science and all that. You also attempt to minimize the amount of money involved by calling it "compensation" for all your time and trouble. Listen man, we're talking about $14,000 dollars for your abductee files. That's a sizeable chunk of cash in anyone's estimation. As 'noble' as your self declared motives may have been, you have to admit that 14 grand would prove to be a big temptation for any man. Some folks are liable to do anything in their haste to "get it while the getting is good." Even rush through properly redacting a few files in order to "get them out" to the buyer before he/she changes their mind. Dr. Alexander clearly stated in an e-mail to me that NIDS did _not_ buy the abductee files. That it was a private purchase by Robert Bigelow. You say here that you sold the files to NIDS. Which one is it, Bigelow or NIDS? Do the right thing. Do what you _should_ have done to begin with. Notify the 140 abductees. This kind of 'grey area' type of transaction has seen it's last days I hope. As for whether you abuse children sexually or otherwise, it is none of my business. If true, I imagine that too will wend its own course and take care of itself. That would be the business of the criminal courts. How you treat the people/ abductees that confided in you _is_ my business. I am an abductee. There but for the Grace of God go I. No one operates in a vacuum John. Sooner or later the lies and the deceptions all catch up with you. Has nothing to do with me. It's Cosmic Law. Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive. :) Sincerely, John Velez, Abductee, Webmaster A.I.C. -- ______________________________________________ A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center - www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm jvif@spacelab.net "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ______________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Hart - Mulvey From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 17:59:03 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 01:14:20 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Hart - Mulvey >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:57:45 -0500 >From: geehart@frontiernet.net >Subject: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:37:52 -0400 >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart - Hammond >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Gary: >>The most responsible thing you can think of to do is pass the >>buck one more time? Just get off your wishy washy butt and get >>on the phone! Either phone these people or word a _very_ tactful >>letter, or fax them or e-mail them. Just do something for god's >>sake. >>Liz >Oh, Liz is out, too. Interesting. No further responses to Liz, >Ann, John unless something really imaginative is said. Gary, I graduated from Highschool in 1974. That ended the era where I allowed myself to be _dismissed_. The last time that was done to me, it was by a nun who probably outweighs you in stature and facial hair. Her comedic value was greater too. >You seem to have gotten lost somewhere. You're right. I believe it was somewhere between you acting as head cheerleader to my waste of time encouraging the online world with emails, discussion lists and phone calls to Bigelow and NIDS, asking that they notify the families, when you had the list all along and could have been in the process of informing these people yourself. >We, the list members who know who they are are doing what needs >to be done. What needs to be done Gary? >Bye. Before you ride off into the sunset with 120 lives hanging around your neck, tell us what needs to be done, what will be done, but most importantly - when it will be done. Given the concern that's been voiced here, that's a fair question. You can't take yourself off this hook. There's no room now for highschool antics of dismissal. You made the statement. The spot light is on and you're the star. So tell us. Ann
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Mulvey From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 18:41:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 01:17:47 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Mulvey Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 22:10:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Subject: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:57:46 -0400 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >>Subject: Re Open Letter to Elizabeth Carbenter and Gary Hart >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >>>Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:35:46 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And>Gary Hart - >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:50:49 -0400 >>>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>>Subject: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart >>>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>>Hello Elizabeth, Gary, All, >>>>I would like to make a very public request for a copy of the >>>>list of names and addresses of the 140 abductees whose files >>>>were sold. I am asking you Elizabeth and Gary because both of >>>>you have told me repeatedly that you have this list. >>>>It's time to notify these people that their privacy and >>>>anonymity may have been seriously compromised. They need to be >>>>able to decide for themselves whether they wish to pursue the >>>>matter or ignore it. The point is; it is _their_ choice. They >>>>cannot make any decision if they do not know. >>>>John, >>>Elizabeth might give you the list right away. I think the most >>>responsible thing for me to do is to ask several people on it >>>what they think. I have talked to them before and I may need to >>>remove them or remove names of persons who do know and want >>>their own anonymity. Even this is a sticky issue until approved >>>or adjusted as requested by those involved, ok? I need to act >>>responsibly as I have pledged to them to do so I will get back >>>with you in a couple days. I, and they, sincerely appreciate >>>your concern! <snip> Hi Jim, We've never exchanged posts before [CRS moment - at least I don't think we have when I was here a couple of years ago], so let me use this opportunity to tell you that you've got a great twisted sense of humor. Having one myself, I can attest to it's value - especially in this biz. Good thing we can laugh. It interrupts the self inflicted head-banging that this field so often initiates. >Ann Mulvey, who I believe to be quite sincere, is now yelling >at Hart. It seems that the target is now you, Gary. and if I >read it correctly, Ann, you now want Gary to pass it on to >Velez, Sandow and EBK. I'm upset with Gary because: 1. He lied and thereby wasted my time and others with efforts that I'm tired of mentioning. 2. He continues to state and believe that notifying the remaining 120 families is second to going after John Carpenter. I agree that it will hit the fan when these folks learn that their family's personal information has been sold and is in Biggies hands. Short of tying John Carpenter up in a chair and forcing him to call these people, there isn't a fair way to delegate the potential outrage. It will surely be there, in varying degrees with each contact, whatever medium is used. That potential outcome can't negate their right to know. These families need to be informed yesterday. I've known John Velez for a few years. I've always known him to be a straight arrow. It was he who suggested that he, EBK and Greg work on drafting a letter to these remaining 120, getting the ball rolling. Given what I know of John's passion for abductee rights, Errol's ethics in managing this board and John's recommendation that Greg, who has worked with abductees also work on such a project, I have no reason to believe that the list of names wouldn't remain safely and responsibly in their hands. Having said all that, the above plan isn't going to happen. At this point, I don't care what the plan is as long as there is a plan to notify these families. I'm waiting to hear from Gary. He tried to dismiss me, then himself, but I've still got questions, so I'll hang on to my Irish waiting for that response ;) Take care, Ann
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Los Chupacabras! From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 00:38:39 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 01:21:20 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Los Chupacabras! Hello EBK and gentle listfolks, Just a warm reminder that my Chupacabra song lyric contest has very little time left until it ends at 00:00 (CET) on August 1, 2000. If you have not written a song, now is the time to get busy. The rules are: 1) It will be done to the tune of "La Cucaracha". 2) We will make the music. You only need to send in the words. If you want to put music with your entry go right ahead. I may enjoy it but I'll only judge its lyrics. 3) Preferably two verses and two choruses. 4) It should have universal appeal in its content. 5) It should not look like a mylar balloon. 6) The winning entry may be sung by the manufactured future supergroup "The . Chupis". They will be like the hit group Menudo. I love all Mexican food except menudo. I never understood that food dish. Why would someone look forward to the Sunday feast with a tasty dish made from stomach lining? What a joke name for a teen supergroup. They were purposely put together by producers for image. So will be the Chupis. Just like the Monkees. 8) Song writing credits and international royalty payment standards will be honored. Time is running short. I am surprised at the limited number of entries so far. I would presume that a mailing list that was so continually full of raw humor could possibly top Lennon and McCartney. Or was that Lenin and Marx? This is your one chance to be a star. Now is the time to reach out and grab that brass ring. Otherwise the carousel will never stop spinning. And people will still fear when they hear of Chupacabras. And tongue in cheek will no longer be my favorite raw food dish. Josh Goldstein The Duke of Menudo The UFOwaffe Berlin
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Stacy From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 18:39:26 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 01:23:05 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Stacy >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:49:23 -0400 (EDT) >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: updates@sympatico.ca <snip> >Most researchers with whom I have had some exposure will first >attempt to _rule out_ the abduction scenario. Then they will >refer the child to traditional medics. Jim, Get a Gripple. For starters, how many researchers have you been personally exposed to? And, yes, it's OK to name names. How many of those personal exposures involved children who were subsequently referred to traditional medics, knowledge of which you were personally privy to? Of those, what was the ultimate diagnosis? Sorry, man, but you're blowing smoke here. >There are so many young children out there who have had >experiences for which there is no explanation. Based on what database? Your assertion of same? <snip> >See what I mean? In the case of parents and their children, the >diagnosis would expand from children to parents. Which is why I >disagree with Dennis Stacey's comment about such phenom not >being in the medical literature. People just don't want that >kind of grief and finger pointing. And I do not blame them one >dot. Parents just don't want to go through that embarrassment. >Jim Mortellaro What kind of grief and finger pointing? Do you think that most parents would fail to seek help for a child for their own undergoing series of traumatic experiences because they thought it might embarrass them? The existing psychological literature is replete with cases of people who have come forward with their experiences and problems. In fact, that's pretty much what the case history of psychology consists of. (Try reading "The 50-Minute Hour" sometime -- at least I think that's the name). Why single out abductions for exception, especially prior to the age of AF-induced ridicule? My point remains: Why hasn't so much as a _hint_ of this pervasive problem and experience surfaced anywhere else other than in the commercial UFO literature? Dennis Stacy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Gary - Mulvey From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 19:20:27 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 01:47:36 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Gary - Mulvey >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 12:26:31 -0400 >From: Steve W. Kaeser <Steve@konsulting.com> >Subject: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Gary >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 05:04:22 -0400 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Gary >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto updates@sympatico.ca Hi Steve, <snip> >I still have the impression that the full story has yet to be >told, but at this point allCarpenter and MUFON have to do is >sit back and watch everyone tear each other apart on the "lists" >and the status quo remains. I completely agree that the full story is probably still out there with other dark secrets of this biz. Whether it's some goofy theory being peddled as _the truth_ or a hot tubbin' day camp for star children, the one constant that I've learned is there is usually something in Ufology to promote outrage, but always something to argue about. As a rule I try to avoid most head-bangers because of their circular nature. However, some arguments are worth the Advil. Continuing to pound on the idea that these 120 families should be told the truth as soon as possible and pushing for some kind of plan to do so, is something I can't let go of - regardless of who is getting their attention deficite yayas off from watching this debate. I'm hoping that those who are in control of this list [and God only knows how many and who etc] will realize that making a plan to inform those 120 families of the truth and thus offering them options, just like they have had, is the fair and right thing to do. Going after John Carpenter can wait. Gary Hart doesn't agree with that. Elizabeth Carpenter doesn't agree with that. Maybe somebody else who has this list will. I can't remember who coined this phrase, but during my organizing days we used to bat it around a lot when times were rough: 'There is no progress without struggle.' I would hope that if my name was on that list [and for all I know it could be since my name was different years ago] that people would push the envelope, risking the potential negatives of an argument, for the rights of my family. Here's to hoping for that progress bit to start soon. Ann
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Haley From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 19:58:18 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 01:52:24 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Haley >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:42:32 -0400 >From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson@alienjigsaw.com> >Subject: John Carpenter Responds >To: updates@sympatico.ca >John Carpenter's Response >This is being posted with permission. For John and others interested. My wife is an MSW, LCSW, ACSW and I have extensively discussed the ethical nature of the events surrounding John Carpenter of late. As an MSW, LCSW, Mr. Carpenter must be aware of the legal and ethical requirements for social workers who do therapy. He has broken several of these standards and requirements. Since my wife does not have access to the Internet at the moment, I am providing her comments to Mr. Carpenter's recent message. >_______________ >Dear Katharina, >The main reason I had not responded for a long time is that I >was never called or asked by anyone for 3 years to respond to >this issue. I only recently became aware of the Internet gossip. >I have to be informed to be able to respond. I just now received >your e-mail as I have been off-line for 3 weeks, so that is why >I had not written you regarding your e-mail. I have also just >read quickly your Web posted article. Perhaps this is because it only recently came to light? >Five years ago, when Robert Bigelow was assembling his Science >Board of highly-esteemed professionals from all fields of >science (Psychology, Psychiatry, Geology, Near Death, Religion, >Paranormal Studies, et cetera, plus 2 astronauts who walked on >the moon), I thought I was furthering the scientific side of >research by being able to provide, confidentially, some good >data for their scientific analysis. I coded the cases involved >and blacked-out identifying data. For _any_ research involving people, a consent form is _required_ before personal data is released, even if identifying information is blocked out. >Despite what people believe, most of the information was >paperwork: a few pages from some, more from others. I was >compensated for my time, costs, and trouble to do so. I _never_ >felt that I was betraying anybody, and I knew NID's scientific >and educated review of the material might be extremely helpful >as well as highly secretive. It doesn't matter what Mr. Carpenter "felt". There are published guidelines regarding how to handle the confidentiality of cases. Specifically, consent forms are required to divulge any information as well as consultation with other MSW, LCSW case workers and the State Board. >We have longed for objective professionals and talented >scientists to look into these matters since so many scoff or >fear being ridiculed if they do. Mr. Bigelow had no interest (or >time) to study any of it himself. It was never for him! In fact, >he tells me that the board has never taken the time to look at >any of it either. So, I understand the information has basically >sat in a closet, collecting dust. The fact that the data has sat collecting dust has no relevance to John's unethical actions of providing the data without the clients consent. >This project was not all that different from the 900 hypnosis >transcripts that were collected from 20 researchers for analysis >by MUFON's new computer. It was called "The Abduction >Transcription Project" (which Bigelow helped fund) and was >well-known to MUFON because reports were published on this data. >I doubt that consent forms were collected for all of those 900 >sessions either. Irrelevant. Mr. Carpenter is a licensed social worker and as such operates under know ethical and legal guidelines. What other groups may or may not do does not remove Mr. Carpenter's ethical responsibilities. >I would also like to add another point. A number of the >abductees who were involved in an attempt to sue me - which was >apparently dropped after my lawyer explained the truth of the >matter to their lawyers - were abductees who had already >published their own experiences publicly, openly, and freely. Or >they had spoken openly for national TV media, talk shows, UFO >conferences, international media, and the press such as USA >Today, Woman's World, and others. Irrelevant. The therapist-client relationship is built on trust. If Mr. Carpenter provided details of therapy sessions, even with names blocked out, it destroys this trust and trust for social workers as a whole. What Mr. Carpenter did affects the reputation of all therapists and he doesn't seem to realize that. The reason why social work therapy requires a license is to establish a minimal fundemental standard of ethics and responsibility. Mr. Carpenter has broken one of these fundamental standards. >Their hypnosis sessions were published publicly. So what could I >do to "expose" their material or break confidentiality beyond >what they had already done? If one reveals one's private >material so openly to the public, why would they be so concerned >about what I did, in such a careful, coded, masked, and highly >confidential manner, to a board of scientific minds? Irrelevant. See above. >I never ever wanted to hurt anyone. I am just sick over the hurt >that has been caused. I always protected the abductees I worked >with from public wolves and insensitive exposure so that they >would not be hurt. I cannot stand the thought that I would be >seen as some kind of insensitive, unethical criminal. _All_ of >my cases _know_ that I treated them very well and with great >compassion. That has not changed on my part, but boy has my >reputation been trashed. All that hard work - and a wonderful >new book to help the field tremendously - is gone if that is the >way everybody wants it. >Now I am accused on the Internet (as gossip grows) of wild >sexual affairs with my clients, sex with animals, abuse of >children, financial gouging of clients, fake diplomas, no "real" >hypnosis training, and no experience in Psychology. I expect >that someone will come up with me being gay eventually - just >wait... What? Since when does an MSW, LCSW equate "being gay" with poor ethical behavior? Recently there have been several comments on the listserv that connect gays, abductions and untrustworthiness. Where did this connection come from? Who started this foolish connection? >By the way, to head off another rumor, it is claimed that one >abductee had her file returned with nothing blacked out. Guess >who? My ex-wife and probably the original source of this whole >mess. She gave her permission because it was not her married >name and she knew what I was doing without any reservations at >all. >She also has her original file and could make copies of anything >and claim it came from Bigelow. My ex-wife Elizabeth knew all >along I was not doing anything wrong, but she swore at the time >of our divorce 3 years ago that she would do everything and >anything to ruin my reputation. What can I say? >I am a good person and a good researcher who wants nothing but >the best for everyone and I want to keep helping with our >research Naively, I probably did a dumb thing in hindsight, but >should my entire reputation be trashed forever? I still have an >exciting book I want to contribute to the field, but paranoia >from abductees may halt it or kill it. >Would I do it again? Hell no. I care more about my clients and >abductees than any project. >-- John Carpenter, MSW, LCSW In conclusion, this response does not seem like a professional but rather like someone who is claiming "poor me". Perhaps it is Mr. Carpenter's turn to get some therapy.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Aldrich From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 20:46:52 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 01:56:06 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Aldrich >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 04:29:34 -0400 >Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 10:37:11 -0400 >Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary ->Velez >>Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:57:46 -0400 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >>Subject: Re Open Letter to Elizabeth Carbenter and Gary Hart >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >>>Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:35:46 -0500 >>>Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart - >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:50:49 -0400 >>>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>>Subject: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart >>>>To: updates@sympatico.ca Hi John and List I also would like to keep this message intact. Please see below. >>>>Hello Elizabeth, Gary, All, >>>>I would like to make a very public request for a copy of the >>>>list of names and addresses of the 140 abductees whose files >>>>were sold. I am asking you Elizabeth and Gary because both of >>>>you have told me repeatedly that you have this list. >>>>It's time to notify these people that their privacy and >>>>anonymity may have been seriously compromised. They need to be >>>>able to decide for themselves whether they wish to pursue the >>>>matter or ignore it. The point is; it is _their_ choice. They >>>>cannot make any decision if they do not know. >>>>John, >>>Elizabeth might give you the list right away. I think the most >>>responsible thing for me to do is to ask several people on it >>>what they think. I have talked to them before and I may need to >>>remove them or remove names of persons who do know and want >>>their own anonymity. Even this is a sticky issue until approved >>>or adjusted as requested by those involved, ok? I need to act >>>responsibly as I have pledged to them to do so I will get back >>>with you in a couple days. I, and they, sincerely appreciate >>>your concern! >>I see, it is alright for John Velez to ask for personal >>information about abductees for his purposes, but it is not >>alright for Carpenter to do something similar. Hmmm! >>If someone gives me information in confidence, it is alright to >>breech that confidence, if I think the cause is worthy? Hmmm! >>Who is going to provide this information? How do they have >>access to it? Hmmm! >>Now we all know that John Velez has the highest motives, to >>inform abductees of a breech of their confidence. Now if some >>one else comes along with equally high motives to, say, refute >>the Randle-Estes comment on many abductees' sexual orientation, >>isn't that an equally worthy cause? Shouldn't they get a list of >>abductee's names and addresses? >>Update Readers, please cut and paste your own worthy motives >>into this message and request further breeches of >>confidentiality. >>John, why don't you prepare a letter with your address, >>telephone and E-mail and let those who hold this info send it >>out for you? >>I think it is time to _practice_ what is _preached_ around here! >>Thanks, my two cents. >>Jan "I am somewhat of hypocrite myself, but I am rather ashamed >>of it" Aldrich Hello, John and All, >Hi Jan, All, >I left your post intact without edit because every question you >raise is valid. That said, John, I see no reason to respond to Ann Malvey on this subject! I think your statement takes care of that. >My request was aimed at getting the notification >of the abductees in question expedited. I really don't care >'who' does it as long as it gets done. These folks have been >sitting on this whole issue for _years_ now. All I care about is >that 'whoever' does the notification conducts themselves >responsibly by not 'alarming' anyone unnecessarily. Okay. First it might be a good idea to see if anyone's files were simply transferred without assurance of confidentiality or unredacted. Are we sure that has happened? John, I missed this earlier post. http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/jul/m24-019.shtml In which you say: "That's a blatant lie. Elizabeth Carpenter told me herself that she is in possession of the list of abductees whose files John sold. Now you say in public that you "don't even know ourselves all the people on the list." Would you mind clarifying that for me please? According to Elizabeth Carpenter she has all the names. She also informs me that she has passed on copies of that list to some of the other abductees whose files were sold. When I asked her about it, she told me that she was not responsible for what others did with the list. That she had only sent it out to other abductees on the list itself. As far as I'm concerned, that's just six of one and half a dozen of the other. These people are having their privacy and anonymity screwed left and right. This isn't funny." I must aplogize as you do indeed take others to task for breaking confidences. I agree that if list of abductees names and addresses were passed on to other abductees that is outrageous. However, do we know this is true? Also, do we know that John Carpenter breached confidentiality? John Carpenter says he didn't: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/jul/m26-022.shtml Now in the case above we know for sure that names and identifying information were released to Bigelow and his associates? Also, do we know that Elizabeth Carpenter did indeed send out lists of abductees personal information to other abductees? Or are we getting this information secord, third or even further away for the actual people involved? >If one file went unredacted then there may be more. Such being >the case I argue for the rights of these individuals to know and >to be able to decide for themselves if they wish to pursue the >matter either in civil court or via regulatory agencies. That is >up to them and them alone. They cannot make that>determination >on their own behalf if they don't know Jan. As I said a worthy cause, and tomorrow other worthy causes will causes will come along, believe me. The point I was trying to hammer home. >That's why I asked for names. Read into that anything else that >you may wish to. And yes, my request does raise serious >questions. I just refuse to sit around with my finger firmly >inserted in my blowhole. Which is precisely what was>happening >before I reported. Nobody knew squat and the good old Boys Club >continued to do "business as usual." This kind of thing, (the >transfer of unredacted witness files without their knowledge or >consent) simply has to stop. >You are very 'flip' about making remarks relavent to this sale >of files that basically say, 'what did they (abductees) expect? >And 'Buyer beware' and screw em, they should have covered their >own ass. They should have known better and all that. Well, allow >me tell you from experience that; when you are half scared to >death and deeply confused you aren't always thinking clearly. >Getting some immediate help/info/answers is the _only_ priority >on the list. Not ever having been a 'ufologist' or familiar with >any of the 'personalities' and literature I wrote to the first >author whose book I had read in my search for>answers. (Happened >to be Budd in my case) But the farthest thing from my mind at >the time was thinking that I needed a legal document before >proceeding. Lessons like that are usually learned in hindsight. Yep, I did make a flip comment here. I also told you that you really didn't agree with what I said in my first message posted on the Project 1947 list on this subject. However, the most the rest of the message wasn't flip, but serious as cancer. So maybe your taking one little piece out ot context and examining it here where others don't have the benefit of seeing it, is not quite right either. >A man in an ambulance on his way to an emergency room is not >thinking about the legal ramifications of the contract he is >about to engage in with an unknown caregiver. (Whatever doctor >happens to be on duty in the ER) All he hopes for is that the >doctor can stop his heart attack. If the doctor turns out to be >a quack (assuming the patient lived) the patient will then >usually sue the doctor for malpractice. Hmm, my point was and still is, was Carpenter (and others) investigating abductions or offering treatment/therapy? If the latter, your comments hold water. I asked a number of heavy questions in my earlier Project 1947 message. You didn't tackle them. Nothing against you, no one on the Project 1947 list did either. >That's what happened here Jan. 140 people in need of>assistance >accepted it from the first caregiver they encountered and still >have not found out that they were not given the best of >treatment/ care. If we were talking about emergency room >patients you'd be outraged. Because it's abductees you say, 'ah, >they should have known better. What did they expect?' >Not fair. Again, is Carpenter a caregiver or an investigator or both? (I don't think one should be both!) Not fair? No John not fair is bitting off a little piece that I wrote to you and chewing it out here. >Jan I don't care 'who' does the notifying as long as it doesn't >go another _three_ years without doing. Agreed, but perhaps, it might be wise to first determind if anyone has actually been wronged and exactly by whom. Since everyone will die eventually files will either go to the land fill or end up with others. As my article on succession planning in the Proceedings of the Sign Historical Group indicated, this is an important matter and shouldn't be left to heirs who might be ill-prepared to handle such files and the problems associated with them. Regards, Jan Aldrich
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 20:41:56 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 02:01:42 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:42:32 -0400 >From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson@alienjigsaw.com> >Subject: John Carpenter Responds >To: updates@sympatico.ca >John Carpenter's Response >This is being posted with permission. >_______________ >Dear Katharina, >The main reason I had not responded for a long time is that I >was never called or asked by anyone for 3 years to respond to >this issue. I only recently became aware of the Internet gossip. >I have to be informed to be able to respond. I just now received >your e-mail as I have been off-line for 3 weeks, so that is why >I had not written you regarding your e-mail. I have also just >read quickly your Web posted article. <snip> >-- John Carpenter, MSW, LCSW Dear Listers, If the above is true, and from my side, I cannot doubt Mr. Carpenter's explanation in light of all the accusations I've heard and read, then don't a lot of you feel like complete idiots? No? Well, you should. At the very least, any sane person would have to agree that such a message casts significant doubt on all the BS which has been making the rounds aboot UpDates and elsewhere. Jim Mortellaro
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 20:49:12 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 02:03:44 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 16:53:28 -0400 >From: Peter, The Duke of Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! - Mortellaro >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Compliments of the Duke to Dr Gesundt & his Gripewater Well. >>Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 00:48:48 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Launches Vicious Attack On Skeptic! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >If you want real insults, I got loads, but why should I waste my >famous acerbic wit on someone who doesn't deserve insulting? :-) That first sentence should read, "... to his GRIPPLEWATER wwll..." As for the last sentence ... you are quite correct. I do not deserve your ascerbic wit (or wisdom). I deserve lots better! :-) Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: CIA Director's Request For Files On Roswell & UFO From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 02:57:58 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 02:06:12 -0400 Subject: UpDate: CIA Director's Request For Files On Roswell & UFO Source: Reuters via Yahoo! News, http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20000726/pl/cia_documents_dc_1.html Stig *** Wednesday July 26 5:31 PM ET U.S. Bill Aims for Order on CIA Declassification By Tabassum Zakaria WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The chairman of the House Intelligence Committee on Wednesday said he would push for passage of legislation this year aimed at reducing the burden on CIA declassifiers overwhelmed by numerous special requests from government officials. Those special requests from administration officials and members of Congress have asked CIA declassifiers to search for documents on everything from UFOs to murdered churchwomen in El Salvador to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. House Intelligence Committee Chairman Porter Goss, a Florida Republican, and Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, a New York Democrat, have sponsored legislation to create a nine-member board to prioritize such special requests. "The purpose of the bill is to bring some order to the chaos," Goss said at a Senate Governmental Affairs Committee hearing on the legislation. He said he would seek passage of the legislation this year. "It's a push and shove, it's who has the sharper elbows," Goss said. Right now, a special request for a search of documents by the person with the most political clout is likely to be put on top of the pile, he added. Streamline Responses Such requests at times end up resulting in duplicative work for the CIA declassifiers because they are made by different people at different times, Goss and Moynihan said. The proposed board would aim to reduce repetitive requests and streamline agency responses. The CIA's 230 to 300 employees at its "declassification factory" are stretched by the sheer amount of records they must review, Moynihan said. The spy agency has in the past said it processes about 8 million pages of classified records a year. Aside from the special requests, the declassification efforts include a presidential executive order requiring information older than 25 years be declassified unless the government decides it needs to stay secret. Also the public requests declassification of documents under the Freedom of Information Act and the Privacy Act. The CIA budget for declassification efforts itself is classified. Included with Moynihan's testimony was a letter from CIA's director of congressional affairs, John Moseman, on the impact of special searches and a list detailing the types of searches that have been requested. The list and letter, dated Oct. 18, 1999, were declassified last Friday, July 21. "In sum, special searches are a growth industry and compete with the mandates of the many existing information review and release programs," Moseman said. Search For UFOs And From 1993 to September 1999, the CIA conducted nine separate special searches for documents on El Salvador, mainly related to four churchwomen murdered there in 1980. There were 12 on Guatemala related to the deaths of several Americans and for records on the 1954 CIA-backed coup, the list said. CIA Director George Tenet requested a search for documents related to convicted spy Jonathan Pollard on the damage done to national security by his espionage activities. The request was made in late 1998 when President Clinton, during the Wye River Middle East peace conference, said he would review the case of Pollard, a former naval intelligence official jailed for life in 1986 for selling military secrets to Israel. Israel has been seeking Pollard's release, reportedly as recently as the just-ended Camp David summit that collapsed. Tenet has opposed releasing the spy. Other special searches were done in response to congressional requests for documents on parapsychology studies, and satellite imagery on the presence of Noah's Ark, on which after spending 1,000 hours the CIA concluded "no definitive information identified." A CIA director also requested information on UFO sightings and Roswell, New Mexico, a subject on which more than 2,700 pages have been released, according to the list. Several items for which special search requests had been made were blacked out on the list. ** Copyright � 2000 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: In Support Of Gary Hart From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 20:17:13 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 08:51:29 -0400 Subject: UpDate: In Support Of Gary Hart Fwd: Support From A Friend ___________________________ John, Ann & Liz (and others), I am one of the people involved in this Carpenter/Bigelow mess. I along with many of the others have been reading this forum since this topic came to light. I was touched by the fact that everyone was banding together with suggestions and doing what they could to help. That is, until things got ugly. I cannot believe you people are attacking Gary Hart! This whole thing has now officially become a media circus! I feel that I must speak up in defense of Gary. He has gone out of his way to help the abductees whose cases were sold and any future witnesses and abductees who may be involved with MUFON related investigations and research. No one asked him to do this. He volunteered his own time to gather evidence and write a detailed report to present to MUFON in hopes of preventing this from happening to anyone else in the future. He has kept the people involved informed of what he was doing all along. While you were talking about it, he was actually doing something to put it to a stop. He too could have been spending time with his family, but instead he spent several months, including his entire vacation time working to solve this problem. Some of the abductees on the list are reading the UFO UpDates Archive at Ufomind and are cringing at the idea that the list be shared with anyone else. John Carpenter, a man we knew and trusted, betrayed us. What makes you think we would want total strangers to have a copy of the list? The list itself is private information. We do not want the list to be circulating around any further than it has already. You need to understand that a lot of time has passed since John Carpenter performed his first hypnosis session on case #1. No one has all the list members phone numbers and addresses except John Carpenter and Robert Bigelow. Even their information must be outdated. People move. Names change. It is impossible to contact every single person on the list. Everyone who can be located has already been contacted. The rest are still being searched for. This is not your job, or Gary's. It is ours, and it's under control. Before you accuse Gary of sitting on his hands and doing nothing for 3 years, be informed that Gary has not known about this since 1997. He only recently found out. Since then, he has been working on a report to the MUFON board of directors in hopes of having John Carpenter removed from the board as Head Of Abduction Research. Also, he wanted to bring to MUFONs attention the fact that one of the board members was in violation of every rule in the "Code of Ethics" published by MUFON themselves. He stated in his report that witnesses need to be informed in writing beforehand that their information may be at risk of becoming made public. Do you have any idea how much time and effort Gary put into preparing this report and gathering evidence????? Obviously not. Gary chose not to report to the public, but to go to the root of the matter and disable J.C. first. After that was done he moved on to the public discussion. The report was very detailed and time consuming and he had to focus his attention on the task at hand. If Carpenter is removed from the board of MUFON he will loose his reputation, his credibility and hopefully any future cases. Reporting this to the public is good! What you have done is very appreciated by the abductees involved and everyone in the UFO community. But at least try to see out of your respective bubbles and recognize and appreciate all that Gary Hart has done too. John, you think the discussion should not be about John Carpenter, but you choose to attack Gary Hart, the only person who has actually done anything to help us. Carpenter is the villain here, not Gary. People need to be aware that this can happen to abductees who share their information with a UFO researcher or Medical Health professional. They need to protect themselves from letting it happen to them. But Carpenter is the well-known, highly respected individual who did this to the abductees. The proof is there, and he got caught. People need to be warned about him specifically, as well as others who might also practice this unethical sale of private information. Gary did not hang you out as bait. You chose to put yourself in the hot seat. If you can't stand the heat, then sign off! Just don't blame your apprehensiveness on Gary! You chose to report this information to the public. Gary did not appoint you that task. Gary did not attack you for not helping him with his presentation. Name calling and false accusations are not going to help this matter. Everyone is doing a part - a part they chose for themselves. - Reporting to the public needed to be done. - Calls to Bigelow, Carpenter & Andrus - also a great idea. - A written report to MUFON addressing the breach of the MUFON Code of Ethics by their own "Head of Abduction Research" - also very important. - A post to the NIDS forum (although removed immediately)- showed us how they address the subject. - Calls (beginning in 1997 and still in progress) to the individuals on the list to inform them that they had been sold like cattle - of the utmost importance, but this task belongs to the other individuals on the list - no one else. Everything was moving along like a well-oiled machine, everyone doing something different to add to the cause, until the name-calling began. From a recent post: "Who made you spokesperson for these people? " Answer: Gary took on the role as the abductees advocate as soon as he learned about it because he is a decent, caring individual. We, the people involved, appreciate all the work he has done to help. He has NOT been sitting on this for 3 years. You do not by a longshot have the facts to back up the accusations that you have made towards Gary. I hate to have to resort to a cliche, but _don't_ shoot the messenger! Use your hostility toward someone who is actually at fault. How about John Carpenter or Bob Bigelow? We think what Gary did _was_ for the good of future witnesses. If MUFON requires their members to follow the code of ethics, if abductees and witnesses are forewarned that their information may become public, and if those who violate the code of ethics are removed from membership, then we will have taken 10 steps forward toward preventing this from happening again. Now that a few points have been cleared up from our point of view, and you hopefully understand that despite what you think, the people on the list are b eing informed and have been since the very beginning, can you please get back on track? The bottom line is: John Carpenter sold personal, detailed, confidential files to Robert Bigelow, without the consent of his patients. How can this be prevented from happening in the future to others like us? Gary is not the enemy here! He has gone out of his way to help us since the day he found out. We are all in complete agreement on this. one of the victims
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Stacy From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 21:37:34 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 08:53:23 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Stacy >Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 15:31:35 -0500 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Stacy >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >What subject? Jerry, The best I can do is direct you to the subject heading to which you are responding, which reads, "Abductee Files/Our Children." So that would seem to be the subject under discussion. >I appreciate your fascination with my opinions -- >which is more than I have for them -- and my "conspicuous" >silence about whatever you think I ought to be shouting about. >But right now I am busy as hell trying to make a living -- you >know, doing writing that I actually get paid to do. I have no fascination with your opinions. I just asked for same. And it seems to me that you could have expressed same in the same amount of words that it took you to say that you didn't have any and were otherwise too involved. Might this imply that when you're not so actively involved you'll have time for an opinion about whether or not children should be interviewed regarding their alleged abduction experiences or not? And note that I didn't ask anyone to shout. As for busy as hell making a living, I think that describes most of us. >Sorry there's nothing more sinister than that. Still, thanks for >holding your breath in anticipation for the word from Olympus. >You can breathe again now. >Jerry Clark No need to apologize, as the use of the word sinister is yours, not mine. I never suggested that there was anything remotely sinister in your actions or inactions. I've simply been trying to elicit a statement or opinion from you regarding certain recent developments concerning the UFO abduction phenomenon, which you seem equally and assiduously hellbent on avoiding. Get back to us when you're finished with your latest book, and have the time to freely discuss such issues. Breathing easier, Dennis Stacy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Hart From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:10:30 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:17:44 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Hart _______________ >Dear Katharina, >The main reason I had not responded for a long time is that I >was never called or asked by anyone for 3 years to respond to >this issue. I only recently became aware of the Internet gossip. >I have to be informed to be able to respond. I just now received >your e-mail as I have been off-line for 3 weeks, so that is why >I had not written you regarding your e-mail. I have also just >read quickly your Web posted article. John received an email note I sent him on 7-5 and sent me a multi-page note on 7-13. So much for being off line for three weeks. John and I have been corresponding for the last month with a total of five messages coming from him. John claims he sold files and file materials of all kinds because he was only collecting data for his personal collection of stories. No MUFON Informed Consent form was presented, explained or signed by any of the abuctees I represent. According to MUFON's Code of Ethics, this signed form is the only thing that can give John the right to disperse any file materials for any reason. I have asked John many questions over the last month and he has answered only the ones he wants to and none speaking about this single, most important point. I don't doubt that file materials can be sold, shared, given, published or rented by abduction researchers. I just ask the simple question: why won't you, John ask permission to do so? He will not answer this question. Perhaps you will now, John. To say that no one else has asked him this or other questions in three years is absurd. The letter I have from his lawyer counters that argument. >Five years ago, when Robert Bigelow was assembling his Science >Board of highly-esteemed professionals from all fields of >science (Psychology, Psychiatry, Geology, Near Death, Religion, >Paranormal Studies, et cetera, plus 2 astronauts who walked on >the moon), I thought I was furthering the scientific side of >research by being able to provide, confidentially, some good >data for their scientific analysis. I coded the cases involved >and blacked-out identifying data. NIDS is a private organization. It has no stated Code of Ethics it can hold it's employees to. Ethical statements they have made are not a complete and comprehensive Code of Ethics. All personnel are employees of Robert Bigelow. NIDS has no responsiblity to share anything with us, other researchers or the general public because all materials are purchased by Bigelow and become his personal property. John can spin the words any way he wants but the facts still read this way. Our evidence shows some or all files had personal information that was not removed or deleted. Our evidence shows that Robert Bigelow received a key list for any person/case number code that did exist. Persons and organizations currently looking at this evidence will be able to make their own determination as to the authenticity of this evidence. >Despite what people believe, most of the information was >paperwork: a few pages from some, more from others. I was >compensated for my time, costs, and trouble to do so. I _never_ >felt that I was betraying anybody, and I knew NID's scientific >and educated review of the material might be extremely helpful >as well as highly secretive. John released file materials from case files belonging to abductees who submitted to hypnosis under the primary condition that no case materials would be seen by any third parties whatsoever. John, what part of NO don't you understand? If these abductees would have been told that "confidentiality never existed" as John has said, they would not have participated in his scheme. Period. >We have longed for objective professionals and talented >scientists to look into these matters since so many scoff or >fear being ridiculed if they do. Mr. Bigelow had no interest (or >time) to study any of it himself. It was never for him! In fact, >he tells me that the board has never taken the time to look at >any of it either. So, I understand the information has basically >sat in a closet, collecting dust. Doesn't matter. Irrelevant to the main issue. >This project was not all that different from the 900 hypnosis >transcripts that were collected from 20 researchers for analysis >by MUFON's new computer. It was called "The Abduction >Transcription Project" (which Bigelow helped fund) and was >well-known to MUFON because reports were published on this data. >I doubt that consent forms were collected for all of those 900 >sessions either. Informed Consent forms are required when hypnosis is performed by MUFON officials, officers, board members and the general membership. Pre-hypnosis assessment of risk is required, too. John, did you do these? Did you get any Informed Consent forms signed? Any? John, as the Director of Abduction Research, is required to explain the risk related to the revelation of sensitive psychological data such as the nature and release of blocked, suppressed or otherwise hidden memories, trauma related to unwilling removal from dwellings, thought scans, surgery in 30% of cases, military led abduction experiences--and I can go on! People, he is slipping one by you here. Don't you see? >I would also like to add another point. A number of the >abductees who were involved in an attempt to sue me - which was >apparently dropped after my lawyer explained the truth of the >matter to their lawyers - were abductees who had already >published their own experiences publicly, openly, and freely. Or >they had spoken openly for national TV media, talk shows, UFO >conferences, international media, and the press such as USA >Today, Woman's World, and others. Who cares? These abductees have the right to do with their_own_experiences what they wish, not you! And John's lawyer's letter, dated 7-8-97, states: "People...eagerly seek his ear to tell their stories. His collection of data is for his own personal pleasure as a hobby and as an interesting study. He does not do it for compensation." Did he tell this to the abductees he gave his St. John's Hospital business card to? How about the ones who were referred to him by another physician or the ones where he billed their insurance? The lawyer goes on "Sometimes people with whom he comes in contact help defray the costs by paying his expenses or buying the tape cassettes." Mighty expensive cassettes as I have multiple statements that John originally did hypnosis for donations or free but charged $65 dollars after 4-94. >Their hypnosis sessions were published publicly. So what could I >do to "expose" their material or break confidentiality beyond >what they had already done? If one reveals one's private >material so openly to the public, why would they be so concerned >about what I did, in such a careful, coded, masked, and highly >confidential manner, to a board of scientific minds? Ridiculous! You had no legal right to do anything with someone else's psychological tests, data or hypnosis records. You are pretending_not_to be a mental health professional and a MHP is_required_by the MUFON Code of Ethics. A remarkable display of rationalization. If any of you believe this then you deserve all you get as a result. >I never ever wanted to hurt anyone. I am just sick over the hurt >that has been caused. And you did it. At least you, John, are sick of it, too. >I always protected the abductees I worked >with from public wolves and insensitive exposure so that they >would not be hurt. I cannot stand the thought that I would be >seen as some kind of insensitive, unethical criminal. _All_ of >my cases _know_ that I treated them very well and with great >compassion. That has not changed on my part, but boy has my >reputation been trashed. All that hard work - and a wonderful >new book to help the field tremendously - is gone if that is the >way everybody wants it. John_is_the wolf guarding the chicken house. Wise up, people! >Now I am accused on the Internet (as gossip grows) of wild >sexual affairs with my clients, sex with animals, abuse of >children, financial gouging of clients, fake diplomas, no "real" >hypnosis training, and no experience in Psychology. I expect >that someone will come up with me being gay eventually - just >wait... Ok, John, what is your hypnosis training? He never answered that question of mine either. And where did you see the other stuff you mention? I never saw it. the evidence itself does refer to some of the activities you mention but it is not in general release as parts are graphic and not suitable for posting. >By the way, to head off another rumor, it is claimed that one >abductee had her file returned with nothing blacked out. Guess >who? My ex-wife and probably the original source of this whole >mess. She gave her permission because it was not her married >name and she knew what I was doing without any reservations at >all. Not true. Here John chooses the easy target. Why doesn't he attack me? >She also has her original file and could make copies of anything >and claim it came from Bigelow. My ex-wife Elizabeth knew all >along I was not doing anything wrong, but she swore at the time >of our divorce 3 years ago that she would do everything and >anything to ruin my reputation. What can I say? Why would she want to "ruin" you, John? What is her motive? What is yours? Be an investigator and find out. >I am a good person and a good researcher who wants nothing but >the best for everyone and I want to keep helping with our >research Naively, I probably did a dumb thing in hindsight, but >should my entire reputation be trashed forever? I still have an >exciting book I want to contribute to the field, but paranoia >from abductees may halt it or kill it. Oh, so we are all just paranoid, huh? What about respect for our privacy? Are all abductees paranoid or just 140? Your message is that you do not need to respect confidentiality or privacy. As for the scientific value of your research tainted by unethical methods, I don't trust any of it. This is a standard professional scientific stand in issues like this. >Would I do it again? Hell no. I care more about my clients and >abductees than any project. >-- John Carpenter, MSW, LCSW John, please respond to this List, me personally or to Katharina with the answers to the questions posed within this message. Gary P. Hart MUFON Field Investigator
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Voodoo Science From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 23:18:39 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:22:25 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Voodoo Science TO: UpDates/ All Send this to you friends... and others! New York Academy of Voodoo Sciences? by Bruce Maccabee July, 2000 I suppose what initially caught my eye was the nearly naked man well hung with bananas (!) on the front cover. But that wouldn't have been enough to get me to buy the magazine to read as I flew to the MUFON Symposium in St. Louis. What said "buy" was the list of articles across the top of the page, with "Roswell Cover Up" sandwiched between "Industrial Ecology" and "X-Ray Eye." I quickly grabbed the 'zine and found the Roswell article entitled, "Welcome to Planet Earth." What I didn't fully realize until later, when reading the article on the plane, was that I was face to face with "voodoo science" published by the New York Academy of Sciences (May/June issue, 2000). The article by Dr. Robert L. Park was abstracted from his recent book, _VOODOO SCIENCE: THE ROAD FROM FOOLISHNESS TO FRAUD_ (Oxford U. Press, June, 2000). Although I have heard of this book as of this writing I have not read it. I don't know how much of the ufo subject appears in his book, but from reading this article I gained the impression that if the rest of it is like this then it is aptly named because anyone reading it would, indeed be on the road from foolishness to fraud. This article presents his version of ufo pseudoscience. According to Park, "The current fascination with aliens can be traced back to the strange events that took place near Roswell, New Mexico, in the summer of 1947." (Of course, the "current fascination with aliens" actually had many roots in the history of the ufo subject. Roswell is only part of it.) According to Park, on June 14, Mac Brazel, foreman of the Foster ranch about 75 miles northwest of Roswell "spotted a large area of wreckage about seven miles from the ranch house." Hmmmm. Park has picked up on what Brazel said AFTER he had been held incommunicado by the Army Air Force for a while. The initial stories indicated that Brazel had found the material the week before the press th Army (Major Marcel) had learned of it. But now, get this! In describing the material which Brazel and Marcel, etc. were not able to recognize, Park has written, "The debris included neoprene strips, tape, metal foil, cardboard and sticks." My response to reading this was, "What?" Looks like Foolishness/Fraud #1. Neither Brazel nor any of the other civilian witnesses said anything like this. I read onward. "Brazel didn't bother to examine it closely at the time, but a few weeks later he heard about reports of flying saucers and wondered if what he had seen might be related. He went back with his wife and gathered up some of the pieces." What? With his wife? Whoever said that? Not Brazel. Foolishness/Fraud #2. "The next day he drove to the little town of Corona, New Mexico, to sell wool and, while he was there he 'whispered kinda confidential like' to the Lincoln County sheriff, George Wilcox, that he might had found pieces of one of those 'flying discs' people were talking about." What? Try Roswell. That's where the sheriff's office was. F/F #3. As for whispering, this is conjecture by Park. "The sheriff reported the matter to the nearby army air base. The army sent an intelligence officer, Major Jesse Marcel, to check out the report. Marcel thought the debris looked like pieces of a weather balloon or a radar reflector...." What? Marcel reported nothing of the sort. He was convinced the material was totally unusual and probably not even of this planet. He carried out simple tests that convinced him it wasn't simply a weather balloon or radar reflector. F/F #4. (Continuing)"...in any event, all of it fit easily into the trunk of his car." What? Marcel described debris covering a large area. In 1978 Marcel tol Stanton Friedman the material covered an area more than 1/2 miles long and hundreds of feet across. The Roswell Daily REcord of July 9 says an area 200 yeards in diameter. Even Park has a reference to a "large area" (see above). It would not simply fit into the trunk. Two vehicles were loaded, according to Marcel, and later more men came and picked up much more material. F/F #5. "There the incident might have ended - except for the garbled account the public information office at the base issued to the press the next day. The army, the press office noted, had 'gained possession of a flying saucer through the cooperation of a local rancher and the sheriff's office.'" What? Garbled account? Actually the account was quite straightforward. According to Walter Haut, the public information officer, he was directed to write this by Colonel William Blanchard, the base commander. F/F #6 "The army quickly issued a correction describing the debris as a standard radar target, but it was too late. The Roswell Incident had been launched. With the passage of year the retraction of that original press release would come to look more and more like a cover-up." Park goes on to say that some 30 years later (when Marcel's story was first investigated) alien bodies were added to "Major Marcel's story about loading sticks, cardboard and metal foil into the trunk of his car." Then "second and third hand" witnesses indicated there was "not one crash but two or three" and the aliens were "small, with large heads and suction cups on their fingers. Like a giant vacuum cleaner, the story had sucked in and mingled tgether snippets from reports of unrelated plane crashes and high- altitude parachute experiments involving anthopomorphic dummies, even though some of those events took place years later and miles away." (Suction cups? Plane crashes? Dummies? F/F #7,8,9) Park presents the Mogul balloon explanation for debris, as conjectured by Dr. Charles Moore who was involved in early Mogul experiments: "The debris found on the Foster ranch closely matched the materials used in the balloon trains" (of Project Mogul). What? The Mogel balloon trains were made of the same material as the weather balloons, just more of it. None of this matches Brazel's or Marcel's (or other first hand witnesses') descriptions of material that couldn't be torn, creased or burned. Marcel has also pointed out that the metal-like sheet material was porous... he said he could blow though it... therefore it could not hold air like a balloon! F/F #10. Park also presents the CIA's "myth" that after the U-2 started flying, "more than half of all the UFO reports from the late 1950's and throughout the 60's were actually sightings of secret U-2 reconnaissance flights." This has been proven by sighting statistics to be completely incorrect. (In fact, there was a slight decrease in sighting reports soon after the U-2 started flying.) F/F#11 Park is correct on one thing: the fact that the Air Force kept the UFO/flying saucer information secret did allow an air of suspicion to grow over the years so that in the present times Air Force pronouncements regarding the subject may not believed. Park writes, "The real cost of the Roswell incident must be measured in terms of the erosion of public trust." This is true, and applies to Park as well: if he had presented an accurate recounting of the Roswell incident and some reasonable analysis (as other skeptics have done) he might gain the trust of the public. Unfortunately, he has only gained the trust of those who agree with his interpretation but know next to nothing of the event itself and so can't evaluate the accuracy of his presentation. Park writes in his concluding sentence, "Concealment is the soil in which pseudoscience flourishes." Since he has concealed the actual facts of the case, he has allowed for a considerable flourishing of "voodoo science."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: Siegel Show - Call-In 'Witness' - Cecchini From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 23:19:37 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:25:15 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Siegel Show - Call-In 'Witness' - Cecchini >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 18:18:05 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >Subject: Re: Siegel Show - Call-In 'Witness' >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>A caller to Mike Siegel (guest is astronaut Gordon Cooper), >>>>claiming to be a former military guy, just recounted a story >>>>about witnessing a saucer-shaped object being transported >>>>(tightly under canvas wrap) across whatever base he was on >>>>way-back-when, etc. Allegedly the base was locked up tight >>>>& pretty much everyone knew "we have one of theirs", etc. >Hi Ron. >I do not think Mike Siegal contacted MUFON Ontario either but >what I have to share below may be related to the alleged capture >of a real flying saucer back in 1952. <snip> >Ron, it would be interesting to know if the "former military >guy" who phoned Mike Siegel was referring to this recovered >flying saucer or to one of the 250 plus other suspected UFO >crashes compiled so far at the CSETI web site Ok, I just relistened to the call. You can go to: http://www.coasttocoastam.com/topics.html and scroll down to the entry: 7/19/00 - Wed/Thu Guest: Gordon Cooper Col. Gordon Cooper, one of the original Mercury Astronauts, has new information. Click on the Windows Media icon to begin listening. The call takes place 1 hour and 43 minutes into show. I'll recap the call here: At 1:43 into the show, Mike takes a "West of the Rockies" call from a John (or Jonathan) from "KC, Missouri". The guy claims to have been stationed at Wright-Patterson AFB in 1972 (not 1952). He claims to have had a "high security clearance", etc. At any rate, one day a large object was brought onto the base on a large, flat-bed truck and taken underground. At that point, the base went under some kind of "alert" (my word), barbed wire was strung up, and many people were essentially told to go home for the day, including the caller. (I guess he wasn't *that* high up on the chain.) He said that even though the object (which was "about 50 foot") was under tight camo canvas wraps, he could tell that it was "definitely saucer-shaped, you couldn't miss that". Siegel asked if there was a sense that this was "one of ours" or "one of theirs"; i.e. terrestrial versus extraterrestrial. The caller said that it was "definitely one of theirs." The caller says that later that day (in '72) he was in the car with his wife and listening to a talk radio show when he heard someone from Wright-Patt, who was also kicked off the base that day, call in and start talking about what he had seen. Allegedly, the call was cut short and that was all that was said on the radio that day about the event. He said to his wife "See, that's what happens...". He said that the next day he found out that the guy who called the radio show was found dead. He doesn't say how he found this out, nor does he mention the name of the guy who allegedly made that call. Back to the Siegel/Cooper show, the caller asks Cooper if he knew anything about any "glowing globes" allegedly retrieved from the Moon. The caller said that he was stationed at Nassau (?) in '74 and that he took turns on duty guarding these globes. He claims that he stood in the same room as them a few times and that standing next to them felt like standing next to a large power transformer (or some such thing), that you could feel the energy through your body. He says that word was that the "glowing globes" were found on the Moon, that they served as some kind of "warning" to us Earthlings, and that they're the reason why we haven't been back to the Moon since. Cooper had no idea what he was talking about... and that was pretty much the end of the call. FYI, I just sent an email to the Siegel show asking whether or not that gentleman left his contact information and, if so, whether or not a MUFON office had been contacted. I'd assume that if any such office was contacted, it'd be the Northern California or Washington State offices.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: Abductee File Case Not "Mysteriously" Dropped - From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:30:25 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:27:18 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee File Case Not "Mysteriously" Dropped - >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 15:07:18 -0400 >From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson@alienjigsaw.com> >Subject: Abductee File Case Not "Mysteriously" Dropped >To: updates@sympatico.ca >I recently found out that the abductee file case was not >"mysteriously" dropped as I was led to believe. It was either >dropped because of a lack of money to pay the attorneys or it >was because there was an inability to prove damages, i.e., that >most of the abductees had already published their information, >including their hypnosis transcripts. For all we know, it could >have been dropped for both reasons. Katharina, It is hard to prove in court what to many of the abductees was psychological rape. How can you measure this? And I know of no one who "published their transcripts". If they did, wouldn't they have a right to do so without interfering with the confidentiality they expected from John? Some abdictees would have agreed to allow John control over their file materials. John did not seek their approval. His medical license requires this, as does MUFON's Code of Ethics. Respectfully, is their something unclear here? Gary Hart
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Mulvey From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 23:45:58 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:29:31 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Mulvey >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:42:32 -0400 >From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson@alienjigsaw.com> >Subject: John Carpenter Responds >To: updates@sympatico.ca >John Carpenter's Response >This is being posted with permission. <snip> Hi John, I echo and applaud everthing that John Velez posted to you earlier, and will take this moment to emphasize a couple of points. >I probably did a dumb thing in hindsight, Understatement alert John. I am unaware of any discussions regarding your sexual activity or orientation, but I am aware of how this 'dumb thing' has rocked not just the abductee community, but the entire field of Ufology. >I never ever wanted to hurt anyone. I am just sick over the >hurt that has been caused. Prove to this community that your show of sincerity is more than backpeddled public manipulation to grease yourself out of a discomforting spot. Do as John Velez has asked. Notify those families. Put the petty gossip and potential career ramifications on the back burner. Ethically, nothing else matters right now John. Sincerely, Ann Mulvey
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: Reports Of Dead Mars Greatly Exaggerated From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 05:36:14 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:33:16 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Reports Of Dead Mars Greatly Exaggerated Source: The New York Times, http://www10.nytimes.com/library/national/science/072500sci-nasa-mars.html Stig *** July 25, 2000 Reports of a Dead Mars Are Greatly Exaggerated By WILLIAM J. BROAD The first spacecraft to probe Mars ended up shattering ages of myths and delusions. This was no sister planet to Earth lush in lakes, canals and vegetation, as some astronomers had imagined after seeing elusive dark patches and white ice caps that seemed to change with the seasons. Instead, Mariner 4, which flew past Mars 35 years ago this month, snapping 22 close-up photographs, revealed a wasteland. Scars from cosmic bombardments riddled its surface, implying that Mars had undergone no erosion by air, seas and churning rock over the eons. It had no detectable magnetic field, meaning its core was cooler and less dynamic than Earth's and that its surface was lashed by radiation. And its atmosphere was found to be so thin that any liquid water would quickly vaporize. "In jarring contrast with our expectations, we had just discovered a Mars incredibly inhospitable to life," recalled Bruce Murray, then a young planetary scientist and later director of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, which engineered the interplanetary trek. Other probes suggested that eons ago Mars was warm and in some places wet. But the planet's white poles today turned out to be mainly dry ice, not water. And slowly, grudgingly, the planet came to be seen as dead geologically and probably devoid of living things. Now, rather suddenly, Mars is showing new signs of life. The announcement last month that the orbiting spacecraft known as Mars Global Surveyor had photographed regions said to have been cut in modern times by running water is but one of the surprises emerging from recent detective work. Scientists, examining Mars rocks hurled to Earth in upheavals, have found signs that moving water changed the chemical makeup of the surface terrain in recent eras, and they have concluded that the Martian crust harbors up to three times as much water as previously thought. Provocatively, experts scrutinizing the close-up photographs of Mars have also discovered hints of modern volcanism and fiery eruptions. That suggests the interior of Mars is warmer than previously thought and may help explain how deep ice can suddenly melt to form surface flows. "All this opens up a much more interesting and diverse planet than people expected," said Dr. William K. Hartmann, an astronomer at the Planetary Science Institute in Tucson, Ariz. It was his nine-person team that reported evidence of recent volcanism. "It's the discovery," he added, "of an active Mars." The implications of the new findings are being debated, and scientists urge caution because the assessments are often tentative. Some doubt flowing water explains the yawning cuts, for instance, and instead suggest other fluids or flows of mud or hot gas. But most agree that Mars is showing new signs of heat and vitality, as well as posing a new set of riddles. "The evidence now says it's not dead," said Dr. Bruce M. Jakosky, a planetary scientist at the University of Colorado. "But we don't comprehend what we're seeing yet, even though we know it's true." Like fuzzy visions of Mars through early telescopes, the hints of flowing water and heat are fueling dreams of the ultimate discovery: aliens, not fossils from some long-departed era, but living ones prospering in secluded habitats, perhaps underground, tiny and microbe-like. "It's not crazy to ask if there's oases where life might still exist" close to the Martian surface, said Dr. Andrew H. Knoll, a Harvard biologist who studies early life on Earth and its possibility elsewhere. But he cautions that hunting for such oases will be difficult because Mars is so far away and the exploratory agenda of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration is already so full and slowed by recent setbacks. "It takes time to do these things," Dr. Knoll said. "It has to be step by step." Dr. Kenneth H. Nealson, an astrobiologist at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, said aliens were rising on the Mars agenda. "I had pretty much given up on life near the surface," he said. "I was skeptical about whether in my lifetime we could access any area that would have any possibility of life." The new findings, he said, "change the game." "Shallow drilling is now something we should look into," he added. "It's a very exciting debate." Mars is the most Earthlike planet in the solar system and a close neighbor, being the next world out. It gets less sunshine than Earth and is relatively cold. Its polar caps and changing seasons, resulting from an axial tilt like that of Earth's, have long made it a world of dreams. The astronomer Percival Lowell claimed he had found evidence of artificial canals and intelligent life, even though his telescopes showed Mars as little more than a blurry dot. In 1894, he founded the Lowell Observatory near Flagstaff, Ariz., and for more than a decade charted dark markings he saw as waterways enveloped by dense foliage, somewhat like the Nile. In the century since then, Mars probes like Mariner 4 have let scientists make millions of close-up observations and discoveries, including dry river beds hinting at past torrents. The $300 million Mars Global Surveyor, built by NASA, has been studying and photographing the remote world for more than two years even as two sister probes last year vanished while approaching the planet. The probe has found dust devils, carbon dioxide snow and signs of old magnetic fields suggesting the early core was highly active. The findings have tended to come out piecemeal in papers and forums, often with little fanfare, so that even Mars experts are struggling with the tide. "I can't keep up with it," said Dr. Maria T. Zuber of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, who is on a global surveyor science team. Last year, Dr. Hartmann of the Planetary Science Institute in Tucson and eight colleagues at Cornell, the United States Geological Survey and other institutions reported that Mars was apparently alive geologically, based on the freshness of some surfaces. The team examined close-up surveyor images of volcanoes and lava flows and found that some had a distinct lack of cratering. All the solar system's planets and moons exhibit impact craters from a steady rain of cosmic debris, with Earth's scars mostly erased by ages of erosion. On any body, the absence of craters implies active resurfacing. For Mars, the team focused on the extraordinarily wide mouth of a very young volcano, Arsia Mons. The huge peak, located just south of the Martian equator, is one of the largest known volcanoes, its summit 5.6 miles higher than the surrounding plains and its summit crater, or caldera, 68 miles wide. The team found that craters were far rarer in the caldera than on the volcano's outer flanks, suggesting that Mars had been active as recently as 40 million years ago -- a snap in the planet's life of five billion years -- and perhaps even more recently. "The crater statistics that we report here suggest that volcanism is continuing on Mars in current geological time," the scientists wrote Feb. 18, 1999, in the journal Nature. The team included Dr. Michael H. Carr, one of the world's top Mars experts. In an interview, Dr. Hartmann said the finding overturned what had been the conventional view for decades. "There were a lot of people who thought all the volcanism died out two or three billion years ago," he said, adding that molten rock near the surface might explain the evidence of recent water flows. At a news conference on June 22 in Washington, NASA made public the signs of flowing water, previewing a paper in the June 30 issue of Science by Dr. Michael C. Malin and Dr. Kenneth S. Edgett of Malin Space Science Systems in San Diego, which built the surveyor camera. Images of 120 gullies, pits and valleys, they said, suggested that flows of water had occurred in recent geologic time, perhaps just hundreds, thousands or millions of years ago, instead of the planet's early days. The springlike seeps and flows, they added, "could even be contemporary." Close-up images of steep hillsides show gullies and channels ending in fanlike deltas of soil and rocks, suggesting the flows formed the deposits. These features are young, the scientists said, because their surfaces are smooth and light in color, compared with old regions pocked with craters and covered with dark dust. The scientists found no link between the sites and known volcanic regions of Mars. Most flows lie in southern latitudes, some not far from the south pole. The provocative sites are seen as having no relationship to warming from sunlight since they often lie in shadows, making them very cold. Previously, scientists had estimated that the planet's lingering internal heat might have kept water liquid in rocky strata a mile or more below the dry Martian surface. In contrast, Dr. Malin and Dr. Edgett said the new evidence suggested that liquid water might lie as close as a few hundred feet down. Dr. Laurie A. Leshin, a geologist at Arizona State University, recently came to similar conclusions by analyzing a Mars meteorite. She measured the concentration of the hydrogen isotope deuterium, a component of so-called heavy water, in the meteorite and concluded that the Martian crust had two to three times the amount of water previously thought. "It's a tiny meteorite with big implications," she said in an interview. "There's every reason to think we could find water in the Martian crust today." In a different Mars meteorite, Dr. Timothy D. Swindle of the University of Arizona and seven colleagues found evidence that water had changed the rock's composition in relatively recent geologic times. "It's the youngest evidence for water," he said, adding that all the emerging signs suggest it now lies close to the surface. In theory, the new findings are increasing the possibility that Martians of one sort or another may be clinging to life on the dying planet. In the past decade or so, as scientists have discovered a remarkably rich microbial fauna dwelling deep in the Earth's interior, miles down, they have theorized that Mars may be similar. After all, its interior is thought to be wet and warm, potentially a kind of microbe heaven. Dr. Thomas Gold, a distinguished space scientist at Cornell, has proposed that the solar system might harbor as many as 10 alien biospheres hidden in deep rocky strata, with Mars at the top of his list. The problem for human explorers is that such regions are frustratingly out of reach. Now, the new evidence of surface water and heat is stirring excitement about the prospect of more accessible habitats and of humans' some day making contact with living Martians. "If you can imagine episodes in which water comes to the surface and stays for a while, then you have the possibility that any life would have a chance to grow and express itself," said Dr. Nealson of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. "To me as a biologist, that's very interesting." Scientists agree that the discovery of even a single extraterrestrial microbe would be a watershed, shedding light on how life began and the odds of its arising elsewhere in the universe. "This is exciting," Dr. Jakosky of the University of Colorado said of the water evidence and its life implications. "This is big news." ** Copyright 2000 The New York Times Company
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: UFO TV Documentaries? - Cecchini From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 00:07:23 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:35:58 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: UFO TV Documentaries? - Cecchini >Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 21:36:13 -0400 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> >Subject: Re: UFO TV Documentaries? >To: 'UFO Updates' <updates@sympatico.ca> >My question for you is why do you believe the Hills, and >Betty's talk of star maps and stuff, but give no credence >to Meier? Just following up on myself, here: I watched "F.S. Are Real, pt 1" and for the most part didn't have a problem with what you said (I was particularly under- whelmed by the soil samples demonstrations, but be that as it may), and of course I like the way you say it. I didn't get to part 2, yet, but I did watch "UFOs Are Real" and, well, I have to ask what I asked above: Why do you apparently buy the Hill story and not Meier's? Personally, I find certain aspects of the Hill's story to be just as whacky sounding (if not more so in some parts) as anything Meier said. There are also some aspects of their story that are "compelling", to use that cliched word, but my point still stands. I also didn't like how you declared their story true, and gave all sorts of credence to Marjorie Fish. When I watched the Fish interview all I could think was: "Bible Codes ... Bible Codes ... Bible Codes ..." i.e. if you wanted to, you could probably find a position and viewing angle somewhere in this galaxy that would let you see "STANTON" spelled out in the stars -- so, I give very little credence to a such a position/angle found that matches a shoddily drawn map that was retrieved under hypnosis from a fuzzy memory. No way. Also, in one of the videos you say how your only interested in UFO reports that include solid, physical sorts of things, that can be measured and so forth -- and I agree with that. So why talk about abductions at all, abductions being the most ethereal of all alleged UFO phenomena, thus making them the most difficult things to "measure and verify". I don't get it... ... Finally, I have a question regarding something you said in your blurb about the upcoming Bay Area UFO Expo at: http://www.bayareaufoexpo.com/speakers.html Deceit in Ufology is strewn with deceit provided by government agencies including the CIA, the NSA, the USAF and UFO debunkers such as Philip Klass, Joe Nickell, Kal Korff. False credentials have been claimed by Dan Fry, Frank Stranges, Bob Lazar and Michael Wolf Kruvant. Television documentaries have been loaded with deceit as have been statements by SETI Cultists such as Frank Drake and Carl Sagan. The NY Times, Washington post, LA Times and even SCIENCE have all published deceitful claims. Many pro-UFO people are gullible in accepting unverified claims. Many anti-UFO people have blindly accepted debunker deceit. We need to validate, verify, and enlarge our gray baskets. I appreciate your (for the most part) "No B.S." attitude, but I take umbrage at your comments about and character- ization of Drs. Sagan and Drake; furthermore, in particular, I challenge you to backup your claim that Dr. Drake has tried to deceive anyone. In case you can't tell, like countless others, I have been greatly motivated and inspired by the writings of Carl Sagan and Frank Drake. But unlike Sagan, I've had the opportunity to meet and talk to Dr. Drake in person and (unlike Sagan's reputation) have found him to be a thoroughly humble and unassuming man who just wants to know (like all of us) what The Truth is. The idea that Dr. Drake somehow knows that ET is here, and is involved in some kind of effort to deceive the public (not that you said that, exactly), is amongst the most preposterous of things that I can think of.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Scientists Dream Of Parallel Worlds From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 05:56:40 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:41:32 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Scientists Dream Of Parallel Worlds Source: San Francisco Examiner, http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/examiner/hotnews/stories/24/cosm os.dtl Stig ** Scientists dream of parallel worlds By Keay Davidson EXAMINER SCIENCE WRITER July 24, 2000 �2000 San Francisco Examiner * Alien universes might be stacked alongside ours like slices of ham and cheese in a Dagwood sandwich, according to a bizarre new scientific theory. This hypothesis is one possible implication of a radical concept of physics championed by scientists from UC-Berkeley, Stanford and New York University. Part of this concept holds that our universe might be shaped like a thin membrane - one slice of cheese, so to speak - surrounded by higher dimensions that transcend the three familiar dimensions of height, width and depth. According to the notion, six to seven dimensions exist beyond the three everyday dimensions, plus time. (Physicist Albert Einstein recognized time as the fourth dimension in 1905.) We live our lives confined to the surface of our three-dimensional membrane, oblivious to other dimensions, "much as the lives of (movie) actors unfold on a two-dimensional (movie) screen in a larger three-dimensional world," says UC-Berkeley physicist Nima Arkani-Hamed. He and associates Savas Dimopoulos and Georgi Dvali describe their "large extra dimensions" hypothesis and some of its wilder possible implications in the forthcoming August issue of Scientific American. Arkani-Hamed is an assistant professor of physics at UC-Berkeley and Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. He was born in Houston, but spent his early years in Iran, the child of two Iranian physicists. When he was 9, the family fled the ayatollah on horseback: "My family had huge political problems with the regime. We had no choice but to escape," he said. Dimopoulos, of Stanford, is a veteran physicist famed for his role in helping pioneer supersymmetry, an important modern paradigm of theoretical physics. (The new book "Supersymmetry" by Gordon Kane says the theory of supersymmetry "implies that each of the fundamental particles has a "superpartner' that can be detected at (particle beam) energies and intensities only now being achieved in the giant (particle) accelerators.") Dvali, at NYU, and Arkani-Hamed have reputations as bright young up-and-comers in the profession. In the past, other scientists, especially a camp of physicists called string theorists, posited the existence of six to seven extra dimensions. However, they assumed these extra dimensions would be extremely small - too small to detect with instruments called particle accelerators. Accelerators reveal the underlying nature of matter and energy by bashing together subatomic particles. The notion of other dimensions really isn't all that strange. For example, consider a pencil: If you see it from a great distance, it appears to be a straight line, that is, a one-dimensional object. Looking more closely, you can see that it has not only length but height - two dimensions. Seen even closer and from the side, the pencil displays a third dimension - depth. The assumption that extra dimensions exist is the latest blow to humans' old assumption of being important inhabitants of the cosmos, the three researchers say. That assumption was first shaken in the 16th century when astronomer Nicolaus Copernicus showed that Earth orbits the sun, not vice versa as traditionally thought. "The idea of extra dimensions in effect continues the Copernican tradition in understanding our place in the world," the three scientists write in Scientific American. "The Earth is not the center of the solar system; the sun is not the center of our galaxy. Our galaxy is just one of billions in a universe that has no center, and now our entire three-dimensional universe would be just a thin membrane in the full space of dimensions." If that doesn't send a chill down your spine, consider this: Our cosmos and alien universes might be like stacks of ham and cheese in a sandwich, each slice only a millimeter from the next. At this moment, you might be one millimeter - about fract,1,25 1/25 inch - from, say, the frigid bottom of a dark ocean on an extraterrestrial planet, or the dusty chill of a cosmic dust cloud a million galaxies away, or the noisy interior of an alien bar packed with blue-skinned octopoids. You can't see these amazing sights. But - if the hypothesis is correct - they're there, literally next to you, forever veiled from view by your inability to perceive these dimensions. It sounds like a rejected script from an old "Twilight Zone" episode. Yet it's one reasonable - although far from proven - extrapolation from one of the hottest activities in physics, the effort to resolve an old conundrum: Why is gravity so much weaker than the other forces? That question might sound odd to nonphysicists. We're all accustomed to gravity's pull: It holds our feet firmly to the ground, plucks flowerpots off windowsills, drags hapless airplanes to their doom. Gravity also keeps the moon orbiting Earth, and Earth orbiting the sun. Yet to physicists, gravity is a wimp because it is extremely weak compared to the three other known physical forces - electromagnetism, the strong nuclear force and the weak interaction force. Electromagnetism gives us phenomena as diverse as light, electricity and magnetism. The strong nuclear force binds together the building blocks of atoms, namely protons and neutrons. The weak interaction force is responsible for radioactive decay. Consider a nail that lies on a table. It's held down by the gravitational force of the entire Earth, which weighs almost 6 septillion tons. Yet Earth's grip on the nail can be instantly broken by a toy magnet that weighs just a few ounces. Just hold the magnet over the nail and - click! - the nail rises to meet it, courtesy of electromagnetic force. It's as if an ant could wrest an apple from Goliath's fist. Likewise, Arkani-Hamed and his colleagues point out, the electrical pull between two electrons (negatively charged subatomic particles) is 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times as much as the gravitational pull between them. "The feebleness of gravity is dramatic," they write in Scientific American. But why should it be? They propose that the reason is that the force of gravity, unlike the other forces, spreads through all dimensions, including the six or seven extra dimensions. Hence the gravitational force is immensely spread out, like a dollop of mayonnaise on a slice of bread. This makes it extremely weak on the "local" level, as compared with other forces. By contrast, the other forces are concentrated solely in the three-dimensional membrane in which we live. Being so concentrated, they're much stronger than gravity. From there, it's a short step to the speculation that our membrane universe might repeatedly fold over on itself. The result: multiple universe slices adjacent to each other. Hence anyone at Point A in Universe One could be next to Point B in Universe Two, and next to Point C in Universe Three, yet they'd never be able to see or - as far as anyone knows - communicate with each other because light and the strong nuclear and weak interaction forces can't pass between universes. But gravity can. In that regard, Arkani-Hamed and his associates add, someday we might be able to detect the gravitational pull of giant masses, like stars, in other universes. Arkani-Hamed is "one of these guys who just has enormous fun thinking," says an admirer, the noted theoretical physicist Michael Peskin of Stanford Linear Accelerator Center in Palo Alto, where Arkani-Hamed once worked. "It was just extremely exciting to have him in the (physics) group here. Every day he would have some idea that would be amazing." Laboratory experiments are under way at Stanford University, the University of Washington at Seattle and the University of Colorado at Boulder to test the scientists' prediction that gravity would become much more intense at very small scales - say, over distances much less than a millimeter. One of the experimenters, physics Professor Eric Adelberger of Seattle, is using a laser to try to detect the changing gravitational force between an aluminum ring suspended by a tungsten thread and a rotating copper disk. Gravity is such a subtle force that it's a tremendously hard experiment to perform, Adelberger said. "Even the tiniest piece of dust in there will goof you up." * �2000 San Francisco Examiner
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Carpenter From: John Carpenter <StarmanJC@aol.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 00:23:09 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:44:20 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Carpenter Dear John Velez, Thank you for your response. I have had the same e-mail address for the last 8 years so I am unclear why it would be so hard for you or anybody else to reach me. I only heard of this discussion in cyberspace over the past couple months. I do not recall ever sending any videotapes -- as they were not a typical procedure with interviews -- and there are very few among the cases. People have called these files "medical records" -- but they basically consisted of interview notes, drawings, and transcripts (initials only) and were never part of any clinic office. I have always kept everything at home where it was safest to store. Others have seen that place in my home and know that to be true. Audiotapes are basically of drowsy, sluggish voices under hypnosis -- hardly recognizable and focused only on details of the encounters -- not the personal info of anybody's life. Robert Bigelow arranged the project for his NIDS Science Board which is not something they have apparently even looked at. They just know that they did not vote on such a project or arrange for the material to be reviewed. My understanding is that he wanted it for them in the beginning, to become educated on the subject, but that they became very busy right away with other interests. Mr. Bigelow has always been very generous and given similar amounts to other big researchers for various reasons. He gave $100,000 for the Roper Organization's poll. He offered up to a million dollars to MUFON for research projects. He helped fund MUFON's Abductee Transcription Project -- a very similar endeavor. He helped fund some of Linda Howe's filming projects, Stanton Friedman's research, Budd Hopkins, David Jacobs, Yvonne Smith, and others as ideas and projects came along. Bigelow even started and funded the first year of Art Bell's Dreamland -- a vision Bigelow had for educating the public with good information. He helped fund the MIT conference in 1992 and other events as well such as the TRIAD conferences in 1993-1994. He is a billionaire who believes in promoting good quality research. You call my words "noble," -- well, let me tell you what a relief it is when great scientific minds finally agree to secretly review some of the best information in the field in a sincere and serious effort to help solve the mystery and help people -- abductees -- like yourself. So many scientists have previously been afraid to do so or avoid comments if they did. Many would deny involvement. Bigelow made it safe, confidential, and worth their time to do so. He now is donating $500 Million to start a civilian-based space program that would help the common man reach orbit and beyond in time. Check UFO Magazine for that story. He is a good man whom I trust -- as do most of the other big researchers. We could not do much of anything financially with project ideas until he came along to help out. John Carpenter
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: Anatomy Of A UFO Hoax - Checchini From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 01:22:52 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:49:59 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Anatomy Of A UFO Hoax - Checchini >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:36:58 -0500 >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@nokomis.com> >Subject: Anatomy Of A UFO Hoax >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >I encourage all of you to read the section on my webpage titled >"Anatomy of a UFO Hoax". It is a rather lengthy section, but I >think it is important that those of you who are true researchers >know about this man. His name is Dennis Bossack, and he has a >radio talk show out of Westerly, Rhode Island. >http://www.jilain.com/hoax.htm Well, isn't this interesting. I just read your entire account of the alleged Bossack hoax, and was surprised that it was an ongoing thing up until just a week ago. Back in early June I started to make a posting in the "Question for Mr. Friedman" thread that recounted something that I now see you would have been very interested in. Too bad I didn't get it out the door in time (or at all). I'm also very interested in hearing what Mr. Friedman's thoughts are about Bossack and his upcoming appearance on Bossack's show. At any rate, the following is an edited version of what I was originally going to send (edited to remove some out-dated and extraneous comments). The subject was going to be: "Zeta Reticuli / UFO Lab / Etc (was: Question for Mr. Friedman)" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 02:39:41 +0200 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de> >Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Well said, Stan. >I wonder if you could satisfy my curiosity? Didn't the New Age >start in Zeta Reticuli? Or was that the Pleiades? Were Betty and >Barney Hill early New Agers? Was Madame Blavatsky an alien? Just >joking, Stan. Speaking of Zeta Reticuli 2 and Mr. Friedman, a week and a half ago, totally by chance (or perhaps it wasn't "chance"? hmmm...) (just kiddin') (random note from 7-27-00: as I read over that, the CD I'm listening to played a clip of Betty Hill. Weird...), while at a McDonalds in Richmond, RI, me and my friends turned around to see in the stripmall behind us a little shop called "UFO Lab". At first I thought it was perhaps a photographer with a penchant for UFOs and ETs & such, but I was wrong. The place turned out to be a very well run, very neat and organized, UFO/ET store and museum (yep, a really cool little museum was in the back of the place) run by a very nice couple, Dennis and Ann Bossack, who claim to be friends of Mr. Friedman's. Anyway, I can't get into what we actually talked about for an hour (yes, we spent an hour there, and my two friends (who aren't big UFO/ET "buffs") tolerated my enthusiasm, as well as the wild stories this couple was weaving.), but needless to say that I heard every (and then some!) of the most fantastical stories thrown at me. In my usual style (well, usually it's my usual style...) I took everything at face value, stayed polite, and respectfully disagreed with things here and there or things that I thought were self-contradictory, etc. I have to say, as whacky as I may have thought either these people or these stories to be, it was fun, interesting and I'd like to go back. There were very earnest and cordial people. At any rate, time for the good stuff... The guy claims to have been a former director of a super-secret organization formed in 1929 ... after we began detonating nukes. Unbeknownst to, well, everyone, apparently we had nukes in '29. I said "No we didn't.", but I was basically told we didn't have nukes as far as _I_ knew. Whatever. This agency works alongside the aliens in underground bases in Albuquerque; their job is to watch over us Earthlings and to make sure we don't "pollute the Universe". I took him to task for that comment, saying that I find the notion ludicrous that, with stars exploding all over the place, little old us could destroy the Universe -- I may have even said that was an absurd statement, I don't remember. Bossack modified his comment, but still tried impressing upon me that we could, at the least, screw up our Solar System. Whatever. I was told that any stories about aliens working alongside our military are complete bullshit, as (I love this) the aliens don't like our military -- they will only work with this secret, unnamed agency (7-27-00 not "unnamed" any more!). When I questioned why they refuse to make themselves known in an undeniable way -- for I truly believe that the human race would benefit from such an event -- I was told that they (the aliens) "don't want to interfere with our evolution" ... even though they've apparently been "interfering" with our evolution for thousands upon thousands of years...? So I asked that: "But you said they've been playing a part in the evolution of our species all along?" "Well, that's the physical evolution; I'm talking about our social evolution." "Oh..." Whatever. Personally, I believe that if there's a super-advanced intelli- gence on this Earth, whose sole purpose is to help and guide us and keep up from destroying ourselves, than they'd have to have realized by now that the most effective means to do so is *NOT* by keeping themselves secret and hidden ... only revealing them- selves at night, or to shady characters, or in ambiguous ways, etc. Note: this is not to say that there *isn't* some intelligence on this planet or in our skies, but I firmly believe that if there is, and that they want to help "before it's too late", they would have landed on the White House lawn by now or what have you. (I mean, surely they watch "X-Files", have seen "Contact", etc, and know that we're dying to make contact...) Oh yeah, there's 600,000+ alien individuals, representing some 732 different planets, I believe, living on Earth now -- some look just like "Earthlings" (I was constantly corrected when I used the term "humans", as apparently every living creature is a "human"... Whatever. I finally got the Bossacks to allow me to refer to the aliens as "non-Earthlings".) and they actually live amongst us in society. The non-Earthlings who don't look like Earthlings (e.g. the "grays", et al) live in those underground bases. Etc Etc Etc It's all be revealed in his upcoming book, he says, which will hopefully be published this fall. The flier I have here says that Dennis has a call-in talk show on WBLQ 88.1 FM & Cox Cable PATV Channel 18 (I'm assuming you have to be in Richmond, R.I. to have a prayer of picking up any of this) called "UFO Lab Report" every Sunday 7-10 pm. The # to call the show is (401) 322-9091 Oh yeah: they have _great_ merchanise at *really* cheap prices! I could not believe the shirts I got for $5 each! And they had cool Roswell memorabilia and so forth, all really cheap. I picked up a reprint of one of Mr. Friedman's flying saucer papers, and he's on the cover holding a picture of something that looks like the Zeta Reticulan that the Bossacks told me about. They claim that the following photo (you've all seen it before) is of a "900 year old female Zeta Reticulan biologist": http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/prediction/51/images/alien/page2/grey_.gif Enjoy. Take Care [7-27-00 : it saddens me a bit that these people may have been intentionally trying to bilk the public. When I left the store that day, I was under the impression that I had just met two very nice and interesting people ... albeit almost thoroughly out of the minds. I mean, there's no reason why you can't be crazy *and* nice. Just look at me, for example... ] Search for other documents from or mentioning: ron.cecchini |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 01:42:18 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:00:46 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Gates >Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 17:11:39 -0400 >From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >Subject: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 00:34:17 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 02:19:08 -0400 >>>From: John Velez<jvif@spacelab.net> >>>Subject: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>I mentioned in my last post that I had a call in to Budd >>>inquiring about John Carpenters remark that Budd has supplied >>>him with "cases." Following is Budd's response. As you will see, >>>Budd misinterpreted my original question. He thinks I inquired >>>if he ever "referred" anyone to John C. which is not what I was >>>asking. My response to Budd follows his e-mail to me. ><snip> >>>My question was not whether you ever referred "abductees" to >>>John. My question related to a statement that John made on the >>>CompuServe UFO Forum about you having supplied him with abductee >>>-cases.- The quote from the posting is as follows: Hi Ann, Actually that quote from the posting (that is just below) was in fact not made by John V (probably an error on Budd's part) but was part of my original post to UpDates. Compare the quote below, with the third paragraph in my original posting which I have appended to the bottom of this email for your convience. Naturally, from my point of view you are welcome to post the entire post at the CS forum. Hope this clarifies my comment. >>>Allegedly with his work with the MUFON abduction transcription >>>project he presumably would have had full access to MUFON >>>abductee files (besides his own), not to mention copies of files >>>that other researchers may have sent him. For example in the >>>Alien Zoo interview he is alleged to have made the claim that >>>Budd Hopkins has sent "cases". >>This was from my original post on UpDates. I see it made it to >>the compuserve UFO forum. Out of curiousity did the entire post >>make it, or only this excerpt. >Hi Robert, >I just went into CS's UFO Forum and searched. I find no message >quoting you. Myself and another staffer have been posting entire >UpDates messages that are applicable to this issue [permission >to post since 1997] but I don't see anything posted from you. >The entire posts that are in UFO have either been from me or >John Velez. Your response to John Velez has not been posted to >my knowledge. I made reference to The Alien Zoo article in my >post entitled "Our Children" which I posted in both areas. If >we've missed something please let me know, but I just had >another staff member look through all those messages and we >can't find it. Below is the original post. See the third paragraph. Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 03:48:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Subject: Abductee Files, Carpenter & NIDS - Thus Far To: updates@sympatico.ca Forgive the repeat, but as I understand the whole scandal thus far from the many and varied posts not to mention private ones on this subject, it essentially boils down to the following. John Carpenter is on the Board of Directors of MUFON and over abduction research. Over the years of his research with abductee's John Carpenter is alleged to have collected at least 140 files loaded with various personal and medical records of abductee's including tapes and transcripts. Allegedly with his work with the MUFON abduction transcription project he presumably would have had full access to MUFON abductee files (besides his own), not to mention copies of files that other researchers may have sent him. For example in the alien zoo interview he is alleged to have made the claim that Budd Hopkins has sent "cases." According to the same Alien Zoo interview he worked on "collecting and analyzing details regarding more than 80 cases, including the backgrounds of his subjects." So its also possible that 80 cases were his "personally" with another 60 coming from outside sources, i.e. MUFON, and or other researchers. This kind of ties into another story being told privately that there may have been quite a number additional files sold/transferred to person/entity on the outside. In the final analysis it is possible that the publicly mentioned "140 files" may be the tip of the iceberg, or the entire iceberg depending on the story. It was alleged that JC had a cash flow problem and decided to peddle said files to NIDS. After the public eruption and people sent questions to NIDS we find out that it was Robert Bigelow who bought them not NIDS. Allegedly Walt Andrus received assurances from JC that the files had been redacted (blacked out) of personal information before they were sold. Supposedly after the public disclosure, NIDS/Bigelow has returned at least 7, or there about, files to the abductees, but allegedly, according to said abductees all the personal information was in full view. One would naturally conclude that if these stories are true, Walt and by default the MUFON board got stroked. Walt should be given credit for being forth right and honest about this, rather then attempting to bury or cover it up. It is likely that even though the original files got "returned" after the disclosure its quite possible/likely that copies of the files were made before returning them to the abductee's. Understandably the abductees (whose files were leaked) are very upset over all of this. Especially when they approached or were referred to a supposedly 'reputable researcher', connected to and a member of the board of a 'reputable UFO organization', in confidence, provided highly personal information and later find out that he allegedly had a cash flow problem, sold the files, and never bothered to ask, notify or get permission of the individuals involved. From the Bigelow/NIDS perspective I am sure they feel they made a legal business transaction and purchased what they believed (or was represented/alleged to them) to be JC's personal abductee files from JC's years of research. We are likely not going to get much more information, from anybody unless the abductee's decide to sue, witness's are deposed and documents are produced as part of a civil suit. Some idle questions, with equally idle answers. 1) When did JC inform Walt and the rest of the board? Likely answer: after the public eruption. 2) What is the MUFON board going to do, if anything at all? Since the matter is likely to end up in court, I would suspect we won't hear much more from the board probably on the advice of the MUFON attorney. If it doesn't go to court, I suspect that some of the party(s) involved may want to "forget" about the whole thing and hope it blows over and goes away. 3) Is the MUFON board planning to conduct an investigation and make a full and complete disclosure to the members? Likely answer: I would hope so, but it will be dependant on if it goes to court. 4) How many MUFON abductee case files did JC have access to as part of his MUFON work? Likely answer: probably the whole lot. 5) Do we have assurances that none of those were copied and passed on to anybody, including NIDS? Likely answer: Absolutely no official MUFON abductee files were transferred to anybody through JC. _But_ then again who knows what JC may have done with them if he had them in his possession. He claimed to Walt Andrus that the 140 files were redacted before being passed on to NIDS and allegedly they went out in full view. 6) What if anything will be said by the notables in Ufology and the various UFO publications? Likely answer: My suspicion (and I hope I am wrong) is many people will not want to comment or discuss the matter. In the UFO publications the story will be mentioned in passing, or not at all and the excuse for not covering the story will be "well it was all over the Internet, so it was old news..." I do predict that it will gain front page coverage in Phil Klass's news letter. I am sure there will be many other questions asked as this unfolds. As to JC personally, I remember when Bill Moore was one of the very public researchers on Roswell, addressing MUFON conferences and such. Then came his 1989 story that he was allegedly involved in a OSI/AF plot to discredit UFO researchers including as I recall Linda Howe and Paul Bennowitz. His "credibility" instantly plunged through the bottom (and he didn't sell any private files and such) and other then what he self-published, he was not doing the UFO lecture circuit anymore. With that memory in mind, its quite likely (whether you agreed with him or not) that JC's credibility has gone down a notch or two in the minds of many people. Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 01:48:52 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:05:18 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Gates >Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 09:27:56 -0400 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 15:38:07 +0100 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Outwith any debate about the files John Carpenter may have sold, >>I would have though it likely that Bigelow would also have >>requested copies of research material from Jacobs, Hopkins and >>others. Bigelow's interest in the subject is already demonstrated >>by connections to Jacobs and Hopkins research, via the Roper Poll >>sponsorship. >Bigelow asked Budd if he'd sell some of his files. Budd refused, >to protect the privacy of the abductees he's worked with. >Greg Sandow On an earlier thread we were given the name of one of Budd's abductee's, which Carpenter apparently got the file from Budd, then later sold to Bigelow as part of JC's personal collection. Not to mention JC's comment about getting "cases" from Budd. Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 02:23:20 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:09:29 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:01:57 -0400 >From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Velez >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 03:18:32 -0400 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Hart >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 10:37:00 -0500 >>>From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >>>Subject: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Hi John, Gary and listfolk, >I just went back and re-read my emails. Then I went to the >archives. The 20th was the day after my email exploded so in >catching up I missed the entire post from Gary which you >forwarded to the list that included your 'vacation' notice. I >get the 'duh' award since that post was important in me >understanding what happened in the days that followed. >>>Ann and list, <snip> >>>Yes, We don't even know ourselves all the people on the list and >>>have not decided if or how to proceed in contacting them as this >>>process itself causes a huge trauma to be generated. >>That's a blatant lie. >Gary told me this last night in an email. You are 100% accurate. ><snip> >>These people are having their privacy and anonymity screwed left and >>right. This isn't funny. >No it's not funny. Especially for those 120 families. However, >allow me this selfish moment while I think about how I was >emailing ideas and posting to push NIDS/Bigelow to notify these >people and volunteering my "creative" past experiences when this >could have done by our own people. >Gary, I, along with the other people on this list and in CS UFO >Forum have a life. It's Summertime and quite frankly, I could >have been taking my kids to the beach instead of sitting here >spinning my wheels - posting all over the damn net - when none >of it was necessary. A lot of people went to bat for those >families - all along thinking Bigelow was the one holding the >list. >>I was going to be a good boy and keep my mouth shut but I'm >>going to say it anyway. >Thank you for exposing this crock, John. I probably would have >figured this out at 2AM, when the voices outside my head are >sleeping<g>, but I don't know that I would have had the major >bon-bons that you have to come out and say it here. Well, maybe >I would have. >>The reason I haven't answered any of the copious e-mails that >you have been sending me is because I was pissed at you for: >>1. Sitting on your hands for all this time after you yourself >>received confirmation from the principles in the case that this >>transaction was a fact. >Gary, how could you create this made for TV BS story on the >backs of those 120 families, including those kids??!!? YOU >enabled this situation to continue when you could have stopped >it by notifying the families or by turning over the list to >somebody who would have notified those families! We never needed >to bother wasting time with the likes of Bigelow! Not speaking for Gary but a couple of points. Gary was the one that put together the 247 pages of evidence and grabbed the bull by the horn so to speak and made an official complaint to the MUFON board along with his his report and evidence. Lets face it, proper notification should have been done by Carpenter BEFORE the file sale, but he didn't do it. Nids (who now owns said files) apparently didn't tell anybody UNTIL the entire issue erupted publicly. John's ex-wife didn't deem the issue important enough to notify everybody on the list... one suspects that she wanted to give the list to somebody else and let them be the standard bearer. From a personal point of view, if I was thrust into Gary Harts position, while the abductee list itself may be part of my report, I sure wouldn't be running around notifying people. Imagine an abductee getting a letter from 'some dude" in Missouri who was claiming that the abductee's file (which last the abductee knew was in JC's hands) was sold to some other dude in Las Vegas, etc' From the abductee's point of view, after you get such a letter, who do you call for further info, the dude in Vegas, Carpenter (who will likely not admit to much of anything) MUFON officials, or the total stranger from Missouri who wrote the letter in the first place. Better yet, the letter comes from people that we on the list know to be forthright and honest (EBK or John Valez) but the abductee may have no clue who these people are. The letter would be better from the MUFON board and or John Schussler explaining that this was just brought to their attention, that Carpenter was acting on his own that the MUFON board is investigating the matter blah blah. Speaking of the MUFON board, any word on if they have done anything? Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 02:34:00 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:11:37 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Gates >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:30:45 -0500 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 16:22:30 -0400 >>From: Bill Weber <wweber1@sc.rr.com> >>Subject: Anonymity and Sharing? >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>One of the things I've been wondering about since this witness >>anonymity business broke, is why in the years I've been reading >>this List, some basic steps of formal research apparently >>haven't been applied to abduction research. I'm certainly no >>research genius, but I did manage to complete a thesis. After >>explaining my intentions and getting each to sign off on >>permission, I asked 42 respondents how often they committed an >>act that other studies correlated with a particular, sleazy, >>business practice I was interested in, then guaranteed >>anonymity, honored it, and managed to share an executive summary >>of the data (none of which could identify an individual >>respondent) with the research and business community I was >>involved with - and with the respondents themselves. Why does >>this seem to be such an impossibly complex problem in abduction >>research? It's _not_ that hard. >Bill, >Actually, something like this was undertaken within the UFO >community. I'm not up to date on its current status, which I >suspect is moribund. This was the MUFON Abduction Transcription >Project, under the direction of Dan Wright. At last count, it >had transcribed some 215 cases, and, no, I'm not sure whether >that number represents the total of individual cases covered, or >includes multiple sessions for different individuals. Occasional >summaries were published in the MUFON Journal, and, I believe, >maybe a MUFON Proceedings or two. Unfortunately, several major >abduction researchers declined to participate. (I would have >said refused to participate, but I suspect Greg Sandow is >reading my e-mail and minding my grammar, when J. Clark isn't.) Dennis, Some thoughts... probably questions for Dan, but let me run them by you and any others on the list that may know. How many of the 215 cases came from JC? One would presume that out of the 215, 140 came from JC. Did JC have any sort of access, at any time, for any reason, to the rest of the case files, i.e. the whole 215? Was JC actually involved in any of the transcriptions, other then his own? Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Hart - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 03:05:45 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:14:50 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Hart - Velez >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 17:59:03 -0400 >From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Hart - Hart >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:57:45 -0500 >>From: geehart@frontiernet.net >>Subject: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:37:52 -0400 >>>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>>Subject: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart - Hammond >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Gary: >>>The most responsible thing you can think of to do is pass the >>>buck one more time? Just get off your wishy washy butt and get >>>on the phone! Either phone these people or word a _very_ tactful >>>letter, or fax them or e-mail them. Just do something for god's >>>sake. >>>Liz >>Oh, Liz is out, too. Interesting. No further responses to Liz, >>Ann, John unless something really imaginative is said. >Gary, I graduated from Highschool in 1974. That ended the era >where I allowed myself to be _dismissed_. The last time that was >done to me, it was by a nun who probably outweighs you in >stature and facial hair. Her comedic value was greater too. >>You seem to have gotten lost somewhere. >You're right. >I believe it was somewhere between you acting as head >cheerleader to my waste of time encouraging the online world >with emails, discussion lists and phone calls to Bigelow and >NIDS, asking that they notify the families, when you had the >list all along and could have been in the process of informing >these people yourself. Hi Ann, Listen kid, I know how pissed you are for all the time and energy that you and some of the folks over at CompuServe put into trying to help out the abductees whose files were sold. I have already copped to being partly to blame for that, (and I appologized on this List to all the folks at CompuServe) for waiting and waiting for Gary to put it on the table himself. I've been a bit apprehensive all along about getting myself too 'identified' as some kind of central character in all of this and I may have hesitated to yank this guys cover longer than I should have. For that I am sorry. But, (and the point of this post) Gary has bid us all a fond adieu! His last 'word' to us was "Bye!" Sooooo, let's just give em what he's asked for and color him gone. ;) Mr. Carpenter himself has responded on the list Ann. _He's_ the guy that should have notified the abductees to begin with. Talk to John Carpenter himself Ann not the ghost of Gary Hart. He's gone. You're punching at 'shadows' sis! Forget Hart. (It's like beating a dead horse anyway!) Let's all just move on to more positive and productive endeavors. Hart is a bring down. And may I take this opportunity to reciprocate and say,... "Bye" Gary! Regards, John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 04:07:44 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:19:15 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Velez Hello All, Hopefully, this will be my last posting on this thread. I did my thing, I really want out! John Carpenter sent me this "response" to my post on UpDates. I am posting it with out a 'point by point' response of my own simply because I have no idea what the man is talking about. Politicians and used car salesmen make me feel that way too. They can talk for twenty minutes and not say a GD thing. He did not respond to, or address, one single point or question that I raised in my response to his original post. He kind of 'blows over it' all in passing but completely ignores the issue of not having consulted or notified the abductees whose files he sold. He sold their files to someone "other than" the person they originally chose, and confided their reports to. (Carpenter himself.) He should not have sold those files without consulting with the abductees and giving them the ethical and common courtesy of allowing them to choose to either agree to it or opt out of it if they were uncomfortable with it. It _should have been_ a voluntary participation on their part. I'll say this one last time and (Thank God) directly to John Carpenters face. Notify those abductees that you sold their information and show good faith, that you are concerned about protecting the privacy, anonymity, and well being of the people that report to you or; people will stop reporting to you! Your days on the lecture circuit will be numbered if you don't. People will simply stop coming to your talks or buy any books that you may have in the works. They'll do it out of fear that if they come you their files may end up on the block if the price is right. John your response to me was interesting for me to read. You did not address a single question that I raised. Either _you're naive enough to think that a little 'stroking' or 'soft shoe' will be enough to pacify me, or you think I'm naive enough not to notice when I'm being stroked. Some folks will look you in the eye and tell you that it's raining while they urinate on your face. I'm done with this. The people whose files you sold need to be informed. It is up to them (and not us) whether they wish to pursue the matter via civil action or via some 'regulatory' agency that you are licensed by. Equally, it is up to them if they wish to ignore the whole issue. The "point" is John, that it is _their_ decision to make. Not yours. They can't do that if they don't know. I imagine that with all this controversy many of your former clients are starting to call you to find out if theirs was among the files that you sold. You need to notify these folks yourself and remedy the situation immediately. Whether you can see it or not John the kind of thing that you did to these folks is a violation of their rights. If not their legal rights then moral and humane ones. That money is going to cost you a lot more than you thought it would. I hope you paid your taxes on it. So long and best of luck. I would like to publicly state that I don't want to hear from you, or your ex-wife or Gary Hart at my private e-mail address about this issue (or any other issue) from this point forward. I leave you all to God. Do the right thing John. *Peter, _this_ time I'm really going on hiatus for a couple of weeks. I'll get to _you_ when I get back. ;) John Velez ---------------------------------------------------------------- John Carpenter's reply: If anyone can explain to me what any of it has to do with what I asked him, I'd appreciate a "Martha Graham" style interpretive dance to help me understand it. JV ;) ---------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Carpenter <StarmanJC@aol.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 00:26:42 EDT Subject: Fwd: UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Velez To: jvif@spacelab.net Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 00:23:09 EDT Subject: Re: UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Velez To: updates@sympatico.ca Dear John Velez, Thank you for your response. I have had the same e-mail address for the last 8 years so I am unclear why it would be so hard for you or anybody else to reach me. I only heard of this discussion in cyberspace over the past couple months. I do not recall ever sending any videotapes -- as they were not a typical procedure with interviews -- and there are very few among the cases. People have called these files "medical records" -- but they basically consisted of interview notes, drawings, and transcripts (initials only) and were never part of any clinic office. I have always kept everything at home where it was safest to store. Others have seen that place in my home and know that to be true. Audiotapes are basically of drowsy, sluggish voices under hypnosis -- hardly recognizable and focused only on details of the encounters -- not the personal info of anybody's life. Robert Bigelow arranged the project for his NIDS Science Board which is not something they have apparently even looked at. They just know that they did not vote on such a project or arrange for the material to be reviewed. My understanding is that he wanted it for them in the beginning, to become educated on the subject, but that they became very busy right away with other interests. Mr. Bigelow has always been very generous and given similar amounts to other big researchers for various reasons. He gave $100,000 for the Roper Organization's poll. He offered up to a million dollars to MUFON for research projects. He helped fund MUFON's Abductee Transcription Project -- a very similar endeavor. He helped fund some of Linda Howe's filming projects, Stanton Friedman's research, Budd Hopkins, David Jacobs, Yvonne Smith, and others as ideas and projects came along. Bigelow even started and funded the first year of Art Bell's Dreamland -- a vision Bigelow had for educating the public with good information. He helped fund the MIT conference in 1992 and other events as well such as the TRIAD conferences in 1993-1994. He is a billionaire who believes in promoting good quality research. You call my words "noble," -- well, let me tell you what a relief it is when great scientific minds finally agree to secretly review some of the best information in the field in a sincere and serious effort to help solve the mystery and help people -- abductees -- like yourself. So many scientists have previously been afraid to do so or avoid comments if they did. Many would deny involvement. Bigelow made it safe, confidential, and worth their time to do so. He now is donating $500 Million to start a civilian-based space program that would help the common man reach orbit and beyond in time. Check UFO Magazine for that story. He is a good man whom I trust -- as do most of the other big researchers. We could not do much of anything financially with project ideas until he came along to help out. John Carpenter -- ______________________________________________ A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center - www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm jvif@spacelab.net "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ______________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 05:17:33 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:22:23 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Velez >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 20:46:52 -0400 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >Subject: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 04:29:34 -0400 >>Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 10:37:11 -0400 >>Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary ->Velez >>>Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:57:46 -0400 >>>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >>>Subject: Re Open Letter to Elizabeth Carbenter and Gary Hart >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >>>>Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:35:46 -0500 >>>>Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart - >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:50:49 -0400 >>>>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>>>Subject: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart >>>>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >Hi John and List >I also would like to keep this message intact. Please see >below. Hi Jan, I've been up all night working on a web job that I have a tight deadline on. If I'm a little 'fuzzy' here please excuse me. I didn't want to leave this sitting around till tomorrow. (today!) I owe you and the list an appology. Because I've jumped back and forth from UpDates to P-47 I forgot that folks on 'this side' hadn't read your post! If this created any confusion for UpDates readers or to Jam personally I am sorry. I've had a plateful and I just got a bit mentally tangled about what was said where. No 'foul' intended. >Okay. First it might be a good idea to see if anyone's files >were simply transferred without assurance of confidentiality or >unredacted. Are we sure that has happened? My source for that was the ex-Mrs. Carpenter and Gary Hart. According to them, one set of files was returned by Robert Bigelow. That set of files was un-sanitized in terms of identifying information. We now also have confirmation from John Carpenter himself that this was true. His 'excuse' is; it was his wife's file and she was using her maiden name. What -that- has to do with the price of butter I don't know. I asked him what kind of assurances he was willing to give the other 139 clients whose files he sold that their files had all been responsibly redacted. He never addressed it in his reply to me. Like I never asked. >John, I missed this earlier post. >http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/jul/m24-019.shtml >In which you say: >>"That's a blatant lie. Elizabeth Carpenter told me herself that >>she is in possession of the list of abductees whose files John >>sold. Now you say in public that you "don't even know ourselves >>all the people on the list." Would you mind clarifying that for >>me please? According to Elizabeth Carpenter she has all the >>names. She also informs me that she has passed on copies of that >>list to some of the other abductees whose files were sold. >I must aplogize as you do indeed take others to task for >breaking confidences. I agree that if list of abductees names >and addresses were passed on to other abductees that is >outrageous. I'll accept your apology if you'll accept mine for quoting you out of context. :) Call it even! >However, do we know this is true? Also, do we know that >John Carpenter breached confidentiality? You tell me Jan. He didn't consult his own clients to seek their consent before _selling_ their info and reports, on top of which it is then revealed by two of the principle involved that at least one of the files (that they claimed to have in hand) went out un-sanitized. What's a poor boy to do? <eg> >John Carpenter says he didn't: >http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/jul/m26-022.shtml And you expected,...? <LOL> ;) >Now in the case above we know for sure that names and >identifying information were released to Bigelow and his >associates? Also, do we know that Elizabeth Carpenter did indeed >send out lists of abductees personal information to other >abductees? Or are we getting this information secord, third or >even further away for the actual people involved? First hand from her. I have copies of all the correspondence. I can only go by what she shared with me. I mentioned in a post that I was trying to track down someone who claimed to have the list of names. It turned out to be the ex Mrs. C. She sent me a copy of a correspondence between herself and one of the other abductees on the files list in which she is offering to send the other person a copy of the list. I went through the ceiling. When I questioned her about it she blew me off by telling me that she "wasn't responsible for what others did with the list." I was outraged and incensed at that very flip response from her. I counselled her strongly to cease and desist in the further distribution of that infernal list. Are you beginning to see why I asked for it? This whole thing just kept getting worse and worse. The more I learned about what was going on the sicker I got over it. I just wanted it to stop and that the poor bastards that are on that list be informed and have a chance to defend themselves. If I was on that list and I didn't know about it, I would want someone around bitching and kicking up a sh*tstorm until something gets done. >Hmm, my point was and still is, was Carpenter (and others) >investigating abductions or offering treatment/therapy? If the >latter, your comments hold water. I asked a number of heavy >questions in my earlier Project 1947 message. You didn't tackle >them. Nothing against you, no one on the Project 1947 list did >either. Only so many hours in a day Jan. You never get to address everything you'd like to because of time limitations. Has nothing to do with the validity or not of the points being raised. I didn't 'ignore' them as much as select other points to address. >Again, is Carpenter a caregiver or an investigator or both? (I >don't think one should be both!) According to Gary Hart, John wrote to him explaining that he wasn't seeing these people "professionally" but as an "avocation/hobby!" If true, it takes balls to say something like that to someone (especially an abductee) and not be holding a gun on them. >Not fair? No John not fair is bitting off a little piece that I >wrote to you and chewing it out here. Sorry dude. I forgot no one here saw that post. Must be those brain cells I killed during the 60's. ;) >Since everyone will die eventually files will either go to the >land fill or end up with others. As my article on succession >planning in the Proceedings of the Sign Historical Group >indicated, this is an important matter and shouldn't be left to >heirs who might be ill-prepared to handle such files and the >problems associated with them. Amen. Regards, John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Kaeser From: Steve W. Kaeser <Steve@konsulting.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 06:20:54 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:24:33 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Kaeser >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 20:41:56 -0400 (EDT) >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Subject: Re: John Carpenter Responds >To: updates@sympatico.ca Let me begin by thanking John Carpenter for his response to this issue. There is a discussion that needs to take place, and most of it is not directly related to the transfer of data that has caused so much concern. <snip> >>The main reason I had not responded for a long time is that I >>was never called or asked by anyone for 3 years to respond to >>this issue. I only recently became aware of the Internet gossip. >>I have to be informed to be able to respond. I just now received >>your e-mail as I have been off-line for 3 weeks, so that is why >>I had not written you regarding your e-mail. I have also just >>read quickly your Web posted article. ><snip> >>-- John Carpenter, MSW, LCSW >Dear Listers, >If the above is true, and from my side, I cannot doubt Mr. >Carpenter's explanation in light of all the accusations I've >heard and read, then don't a lot of you feel like complete >idiots? >No? Actually, there are important issues raised by this issue. We may be chasing down the wrong tangents from time to time, but the thread has some points that probably need to be addressed. >Well, you should. At the very least, any sane person would have >to agree that such a message casts significant doubt on all the >BS which has been making the rounds aboot UpDates and elsewhere. The message shows that there are always two sides to a story and those who want to sit in judgment should make sure they have all the facts before they begin battle. (IMO) The issue boils down to the question of whether or not files with confidential information were sold, or if those files were "sanitized" (if a transfer took place, which is apparently true). John Velez has indicated that several abductees have recovered their files and found that information was freely visible, but the source of John's information becomes critical. If this only comes through Carpenter's ex-spouse, this could shed a new light on the matter. She would likely have had access to confidential information prior to their split and is certainly not a dis-interested third party. If, on the other hand, several abductees have contacted John independently and have correspondence directly from Bigalow that confirms that confidential information has been passed, then Carpenter's explanation would appear to be questionable. Walt Andrus made a statement to John Velez that an "Investigation" was on going into this matter. While an official investigation may not have actually been underway at this point, his statement (as the Director of MUFON at that time) carries certain weight and IMO requires a follow up response with the results of that probe. IMO, the fact that Walt has indicated that the matter is being looked into should not imply that improper actions have taken place. But a MUFON spokesman has spoken, and I would hate to see this left hanging. From material that I've seen, it is apparent that MUFON was aware of the transfer of information to Bigalow as early as 1996-97, but this was apparently never discussed (or disclosed) to the research subjects involved. A simple Consent Form would give Carpenter permission to distribute "sanitized" research material, and is used by the researchers in our area. This would not give permission to release personal data, which would require specific written authorization. As has been pointed out, Carpenter comes under different scrutiny as a result of his licensed profession. Non-professional abduction researchers are bound only by general privacy laws, while Carpenter must follow a strict set of guidelines when dealing with clients. His response draws a very clear line in the sand between treatment and research, but the matter is far more complex than that. He is bound by certain ethics requirements and he cannot simply declare them null and void if there is no treatment plan and money does not change hands. This is the play area for lawyers. But from the discussion, it appears that many abductees who have agreed to become research subjects are surprised by this type of information transfer (with or without personal information). I also have the impression that they were not aware of the value of that information as a commodity. While I don't think we're going to see research files on E-Bay any time soon, there is other UFO memorabilia that has been placed up for sale and who knows what archives could end up on the auction block. No. I don't feel like an idiot trying to unravel some of the issues raised by this thread. IMO, Gotlib's "Code of Abduction Research Ethics" (or whatever) should be re-affirmed by the major researchers and research organizations and that could become a first step in rebuilding confidence between abductees and those who would like to perform honest research. Of course, this is only MY opinion. Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 30 From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:51:41 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:29:57 -0400 Subject: UpDate: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 30 Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor. <Masinaigan@aol.com> ========================== UFO ROUNDUP Volume 5, Number 30 July 27, 2000 Editor: Joseph Trainor MOTHERSHIP UFO HOVERS OVER CARACAS, VENEZUELA On Saturday, July 22, 2000, at 6:28 p.m., a giant luminous UFO was seen by many witnesses over the suburbs of Caracas, the capital of Venezuela. According to eyewitness Martha Rosenthal, "an object of considerable size, nearly transparent (given the amount of light it transmitted--M.R.) has been filmed since 6:28 p.m. It appears silvery in color with a white upper dome and a fin on the lower hull shaped like an inverted cone (like the tongue of a shoe--M.R.)." "A compass reading" placed the UFO "at between 300 and 305 degrees," northwest of downtown Caracas, "located to the left of the Universidad Simon Bolivar (university) and the barrio Fuerte Tiuna, using the clouds as a screen," she added, the UFO's "luminosity is hard to observe without using dark glasses. It is hovering with an almost imperceptible balancing motion, but one could say it is completely motionless." (Muchas gracias a Martha Rosenthal y Scott Corrales, autor de los libros Chupacabras and Other Mysteries y Forbidden Mexico para eso informe.) UFO SQUADRON SEEN OVER SAO PAULO, BRAZIL On Friday, June 23, 2000, at 8:30 p.m., Joaquin Pires "was at his apartment window in Sao Paulo, looking outdoors in no special direction. The night was unusually warm because we are in the winter time here. He saw what at first looked like a plane but on a different route (flight path--J.T.) that he was used to observing." When the object came closer, he noticed that it was not just one object but a formation. Moreover, one of the objects was flying at an extremely low level, a little separated from the others. They all had an orange glow-- a kind of 'fixed' light, polarized quite different from torch (illuminated) balloons and planes' sign (navigation) lights." "The (UFO) cluster was moving silently from south to north at an estimated altitude of 3,000 meters (3,300 feet)." "Joaquin is wondering if anybody else" in the Sao Paulo area "saw this sighting." (Muito obrigado a Sergio Graciotti, correspondencao do UFO Roundup em Brasil por eso caso.) RESIDENT VIDEOTAPES A UFO IN NORTHWICH, CHESHIRE, UK On Sunday, July 9, 2000, at about 2 p.m., a man in Northwich, Cheshire "saw the strange object in the sky.. and asked his wife to bring his video camera out so he could try and film the phenomenon. He was able to capture what experts at the British UFO Studies Centre (BUFOSC) say is 'the best-ever UFO film.'" "Russ Callaghan of UFO Magazine saw the footage on July 16" at BUFOSC's 20th Anniversary dinner "and said it's 'the best footage I've ever seen.'" "The witness also recorded traffic on his (radio) frequency scanner which clearly indicates the presence of civilian passenger aircraft in the immediate vicinity at the time." The tape also reportedly reveals air traffic controllers of the UK's Civil Aviation Authority diverting the passenger aircraft away from the airspace over Northwich. "Eric Morris, BUFOSC director, and Tim Matthews, well-known author and researcher of mysteries both ancient and modern, have both been amazed by the quality of the images." Three days later, on Wednesday, July 12, 2000, a resident of the large city of Stoke-on-Trent, southeast of Northwich, told BUFOSC that he had "seen a UFO 'being chased by three aircraft and a large (Boeing Vertol CH-47D) Chinook helicopter. (Many thanks to Cliff Capers for forwarding the BUFOSC news release.) MORE UFOs SIGHTED OVER WISCONSIN On Monday, July 10, 2000, at 7 p.m., two men "were having a break outside the factory where we work" in Tomah, Wisconsin (population 7,570) when "we both saw a cigar-shaped object to the north and (another) one to the south. They were silver in color, and this was at 7 p.m. (Still daylight. Sunset in Wisconsin that day was around 9 p.m.--J.T.) Both were traveling slowly--too slow to be a plane. They were too low to be a commercial jet. After about a minute and a half of watching, they speeded up to a terrific speed and disappeared. We are sure this object wasn't any type of man-made aircraft. It was a real strange event we witnessed." Tomah is on Wisconsin Highway 16 about 170 miles (272 kilometers) northwest of Milwaukee. On Sunday, June 25, 2000, two girls were driving on Highway 41 in Little Chute, Wis., a suburb of Appleton, when they saw something strange in the sky. "My sister and I saw this unusual fireball in the sky," one of the witnesses reported, "We were driving to the mall and, when going on to Highway 41, I noticed something oval in the sky. It looked like a fireball in the sky. But, as we both looked at it closer, we could see an oval shape on the top of it and sometimes we could seen an oval shape on the bottom of it, also. There was a black dot in front of the fireball. It was below the clouds, traveling up towards the right, as we were going south on Highway 41 I'm not sure what it was, and it would make my sister feel better if she could find out what it was." (Many thanks to Peter Davenport of the National UFO Reporting Center for these reports.) UNUSUAL UFO SEEN BY A SECURITY GUARD IN OHIO On Saturday, July 8, 2000, at 5:32 a.m., security guard Claude Foreman was on duty "at his place of employment near Third Street, close to Route 521, in Ironton, Ohio (population 12,750) when he "caught a glimpse of something in the corner of my eye." Watching it approach from the clear western sky, Foreman initially thought it to be a large bird, perhaps a vulture. He then "walked into the field to get a better look at it.." "The UFO, seen clearly in the daylight skies, was reportedly shaped like the sole of a shoe. The object appeared to be colored like rusted old iron (that is, dark red--J.T.) and looked like a shoebox of old rusted metal or iron that was rounded at both ends." "The rust-colored object made absolutely no noise as it continued overhead at an estimated altitude of 10,000 to 15,000 feet (3,00 to 4,500 meters), going perfectly straight. From his perspective, the security guard said the object was much longer than a routine (conventional) aircraft seen at the same estimated height. The guard, however, thought the object was traveling much slower than conventional air traffic." "It was low enough that I should have heard some noise," Foreman told UFO researcher Kenneth Young. Foreman said the UFO also had "a yellowish-orange non-blinking light around the exterior of it, like a circle with neon lighting all around it. There were also two additional lights in the back of the object.." "I've always been skeptical of UFOs," Foreman added, ""This is the first time I've ever seen anything like this." Ironton is on the north bank of the Ohio River about 12 miles (19 kilometers) northwest of Huntington, West Virginia. (Many thanks to Kenneth Young of Cincinnati UFO Research for this report.) (Editor's Note: Huntington, W.V. is a notorious hotspot for UFOs and played a key role in the "Mothman" incident of 1967.) CYLINDRICAL WHITE UFO SEEN IN MAKILTEO, WASHINGTON On Sunday, July 16, 2000, at 11:50 p.m., David E. and his friend Heather were driving on Highway 526 in Makilteo, Washington state "when I noticed a long white line in the sky. I first thought it was an airplane since we were near the (Boeing plant's) airport It just hovered in one position 30 degrees above the horizon." The UFO "moved a little and just hovered there, motionless. We both watched it and also noticed that it had no shadowing like a normal airplane...that it had no shape to it. It was just a white line, but it still had a definite presence to it." "The object, as we continued to drive ahead, seemed to be very far off and nowhere near the Boeing airport at all. But after I stated jokingly to Heather, 'If this is the big day of contact or alien invasion, bring it on, baby!' and it suddenly vanished. Nothing left of it. We just looked at each other and speculated about what we had just witnessed." (Many thanks to Rev. Billy Dee of UFO Sky Searchers International for this report.) THREE CROP CIRCLES APPEAR IN BAINBRIDGE, OHIO "Lovers of mysteries and UFO enthusiasts: take heed. Paranormal activity is alive and well just east of Bainbridge (Ohio) on Route 50." "At the farm of Roscoe and Elizabeth Swartz, three genuine crop circles have appeared. They were discovered in a wheat field Thursday *June 29, 2000) by farmer Dale mark who was baling hay at the time." "Some possible, albeit not plausible, reasons for the appearance include but are not limited to: aliens, Druids, Native American mysticism, the recent summer solstice and maybe they are mainly the work of a resourceful and clever prankster." (Editor's Comment: Uh-huh. Right. And he drove all the way to Bainbridge from Ashern, Manitoba, Canada, the site of last week's crop circle, just to play a prank on Roscoe and Elizabeth Swartz.) "'There's no sign of machinery, but they're so geometrically perfect,' said Roscoe, an oral surgeon "Maybe it has something to do with the summer solstice." Evidence to the contrary is scarce. "I don't know how anyone could have gotten in or out... nothing's knocked down and there are no tracks. It's a phenomenon we just can't explain,' he added." :One of the circles is nearly 40 feet (13 meters) in diameter, but it is the other two that appear the most interesting. They contain an inner circle of about 30 feet 99 meters) in diameter and an outer 'ring' of about three feet (0.9 meters) in width that encompasses the entire circle. Two 'concentric circles' if you will." "The trio of circles are just a few feet apart and are in an area not far from the Seip Mound (a temple mound of the indigenous Hopewell culture, circa 800 A.D.--J.T.) where ancient earthworks once stood before losing the battle with the plow." "'There's a lot of Indian lore about the area,' continued Roscoe." "The Swartz family has lived on the farm for 31 years and has never seen anything like it. 'I think maybe we were invaded by the Druids,' Roscoe further hypothesized." "According to Elizabeth and Roscoe, the circles were a welcome break. 'Usually the biggest thing they find around here are marijuana plants--and no one knows where they come from, either.'" "Dale Mark is there continuing work on the hay baling process. 'My wife said I've been having dreams about UFOs,' he said, before deciding it might be better not to go on." "Elizabeth, who is an artist, was more careful in her words. Unlike her husband, she seemed dubious to commit herself to the question of their origin. 'Whether it's a hoax or not, it's still well done,' she said, commenting somewhat reluctantly. 'I'd better not mention UFOs.'" (See the Chillicothe, Ohio Gazette for July 2, 2000, "Crop circles appear close to home," page 1. Many thanks to George Clappison for forwarding the newspaper article.) CHEMTRAILS APPEAR ON THE QUEENSLAND COAST Chemtrails have been spotted on the "Gold Coast," south of Brisbane in Queensland state, Australia. This was the first reported sighting of chemtrails in Australia received by UFO Roundup. On Thursday, July 6, 2000, during a local festival, low-flying airplanes sprayed chemtrails on the beaches at Brunswick Heads, near Byron Bay, Qlnd., a port city about 200 kilometers (120 miles) south of Brisbane. Nearly two weeks later, on Wednesday, July 19, 200, "starting at 7 a.m., a few large airplanes flying at low altitude crisscrossed the sky in all directions, spraying Chemtrails. Within a few minutes, the famous clear blue Australian sky turned cloudy and hazy. For the first time in history here, it was almost impossible to see the beautiful (Great Dividing Range--J.T.) mountains to the west." Byron Bay itself was the target of the spraying on July 19, 2000. "To our astonishment, the clouds did not disperse, nd they were very long, all the way down Australia's Gold Coast. People stopped on the side of the road and got out of their cars to watch the incredible spectacle. I know of a few people who took photographs. The event resembled a war, as airplanes 'attacked' Byron Bay from all directions. The 'contrails' were 'turned' on just before Byron Bay and 'turned off' after the planes passed over us." The sky "resembled a load of match sticks that was dumped on the floor...These 'contrails' did not behave as ordinary contrails. While one side of these 'contrails' remained straight, the other side dispersed, resembling a comb or a feather." (Many thanks to Diane Harrison of the Australian UFO Research Network for this report.) CHEMTRAILS, WEIRD WEATHER REPORTED IN SWEDEN Chemtrails have been seen frequently on Orust Island, an island off the west coast of Sweden, located about 320 kilometers (200 miles) east-southeast of Stockholm, the national capital. Ulla-Britt M., a resident of Hensa, a town on Orust, reported, "In November 1998, I was standing on the balcony, third floor of the local government building where I work. I was having a cig (cigarette) with my coffee. Suddenly I heard a whining noise from above, and when I looked up, there were two airplanes racing at high speed, leaving a contrail behind. Suddenly the last (second) one came close to the first, and my heart nearly stopped. I was thinking a catastrophe would happen. Nothing happened, and I was surprised to see them linked, as if the two had become one." In recent weeks, Ulla-Britt added, she has seen them again "and they have a strange sound like whining, and this is how I know they are there even if I cannot see them. I am not afraid of them any more but I am really worried about what they are spraying the sky with." "Often, specifically now in the summer time, I have problems with running eyes and nose, some coughing and a sound in my ears like crickets (tintinnitis--J.T.) and a sick feeling from the stomach (gastritis--J.T.) There is no clear sky any more. The chemtrails stay in the sky, and they move like a coverlet across the sky." (Email Interview) On Thursday, June 20, 2000, unusually heavy rains blanketed south-central Sweden. Heavy rains flooded the Ljungan River near Aage, which overflowed its banks and swept away several houses. "Heavy rains have flooded roads and railways, isolating communities and shutting down all northbound train traffic from Stockholm." (See USA Today for July 20, 2000, "Rains engulf central Sweden," page 5A) (Editor's Comment: Anti-UFO minefields? Defense against depletion of the ozone layer? Global weather modification? A spinoff of Project MK Ultra? Just what are these chemtrails all about?) HANDWRITING ANALYSTS DISPUTE FATIMA LETTER A group of handwriting analysts questions the authenticity of the Fatima letter released by the Vatican last month. Specklin Forensic Laboratories, a group which analyzed the ransom note in the JonBenet Simpson murder case in 1997, announced on their website that they "have examined the reputed Third Secret text and compared it with past writings of Sister Lucy." On January 9, 1944, the surviving Fatima seer, Sister Lucia Abobora de Jesus dos Santos, in response to a request from Archbishop da Silva of Leiria, Portugal, wrote down the "Third Secret" she had been given by the Virgin Mary in 1917. The letter was turned over to Pope Piux Xii (birth name Eugenio Pacelli--J.T.) who promised to release it to the public in 1960. But he died of a heart attack in 1958, and his successor, Pope John XXIII (birth name Angelo Roncalli--J.T.) locked the envelope away in a wall safe in the Vatican. A month after beatification ceremonies for Fatima seers Francisco and Jacinta Marto in May 2000, Pope John Paul II (birth name Karol Wojytla--J.T.) decided to make the Third Secret public. Lucia Abobora de Jesus dos Santos, 93, is a Carmelite nun living at a convent in Coimbra, Portugal. According to page 2 of the Specklin Labs' report, the handwriting of the Third Secret "cannot be identified with the known handwriting of Sister Lucy." The full text of the report can be found at this URL-- http://www.tidm.org/news/spcklin-p1.htm and http://www.tidm.org/news/specklin-p2.htm According to the documents presented by Fatima archivist Father Joaquim Alonso on October 13, 1967, the fiftieth anniversary of the last Marian apparition, Lucia informed Bishop da Silva that the text "is sealed in an envelope and it is on a piece of notepaper." In Father Alonso's book, The Secret of Fatima: Fact and Legend, page 65, Cardinal Ottaviani was quoted as saying, "She (Lucia) has written on one sheet of paper what Our Lady told her to tell the Holy Father (the Pope--J.T.)." However, the text released last month totalled four pages. (Muito obrigado ao TIDM por eso caso.) (Editor's Comment: Speaking of Fatima, you'll never guess who dropped in for a visit. Check out this week's feature story.) WYOMING TOWNS INVADED BY A HORDE OF SKUNKS Hundreds of skunks have invaded the town of Medicine Bow, Wyoming (population 400), spraying homes and yards as they move around at night. The skunks were "driven to town in search of food and water" and have "become such a problem that the city has called in a state trapper to get rid of" the animals. "In nearby Hanna (population 1,100), about 20 miles (32 kilometers) down the road (Highways 30 and 287--J.T.), the town has also called in a state trapper to catch the badgers." ""Medicine Bow town clerk Carol Cook blamed this summer's dry conditions for drawing the animals to town." Medicine Bow is on Highway 30 and 287 about 55 miles (88 kilometers) north of Laramie. Hanna is on Highway 72 about 80 miles (128 kilometers) northwest of Laramie. (See USA Today for July 25, 2000, "Wyoming," page 7A.) (Editor's Note: Hanna, Wyo. was the site of a reported UFO crash in 1998.) (Editor's Comment: This is the second swarm of fur-bearing animals on the prairie this year. In April, hundreds of jackrabbits invaded the city of Fargo, North Dakota. See UFO Roundup, volume 5, number 17 for April 27, 2000, "Jackrabbit horde runs wild in Fargo, North Dakota," page 5. What is going on out there on the prairie?) from the UFO Files... 2000: ANOTHER OCTOBER SURPRISE? On Thursday, July 20, 2000, shortly after 3 a.m., your UFO Roundup editor had a really disturbing dream. I dreamed I was riding a bus which was traveling on a country road. There were maybe half a dozen people aboard. After turning onto a two-lane dirt road, the bus headed uphill into what looked like a national forest, mostly deciduous trees and a few solitary pines. The bus stopped at a T-intersection. An even smaller dirt road led up a wooded mountainside. We all got out to stretch our legs. I felt a hand tap my shoulder, turned and saw that it was Tackanash. Tackanash is an elderly man of the Anishinabe, an indigenous people here in the USA (also known as Ojibwe or Chippewa--J.T.) I've dreamed of him at different times of my life. Sometimes he appears in traditional Anishinabe dress, sometimes in modern garb. This time he was wearing blue jeans and a denim jacket with beadwork on the collarbone and at the cuffs. "Let's take a walk," he said. So we went up the steep narrow road. I kept a wary eye on the creek to the left of the road. It was swollen and running fast and eating away at the road's shoulder. "You're looking pretty grim," I remarked. "Operation Abacus isn't dead, Joe." "I didn't think it was," I replied. "I just figured it went back on the shelf with the rest of the contingency plans." Holding my shoulders, he gave me a solemn look. "Clinton isn't stepping down." "What!?" I cried, taking a step back. "I've heard that rumor, Nimishoo (Anishinabe for grandfather--J.T.) And I don't buy it. He doesn't have a choice. It's all over on January 20." His statement really had me flustered. "You want to know how it's going to go? Here it is. 12 noon--the new president, whoever he is, takes the oath. 12:02--Hillary says, 'I'm outta here!' and walks off the reviewing stand. 12:03...or 9:03 a.m. Pacific time...Pamela Anderson Lee's cell phone rings in Hollywood. A familiar voice says, 'Hi, Pam! Busy this weekend?'" Tackanash smiled but only a fraction. His face was still pretty grim. "There's a lot going on that you don't know about. There's going to be a big war in the Middle East. They're going to cancel the election." "They can't do that!" I snapped. "There's no emergency big enough to justify that. Lincoln didn't do it. FDR didn't do it--" "No, but he was going to," Tackanash interrupted. "But he knew the Republicans would raise hell so he didn't." "And the Republicans are just going to sit there and take it!?" "They have no choice. We're talking about a real national emergency here. Everything in Michimackinakong (Anishinabe name for the USA) is going to change," he said, as we walked along. "Besides, they don't like Dubbya (Gov. George W. Bush, the GOP candidate--J.T.) They're not sure Al Gore can beat him." "As if it matters," I replied, "Haven't you heard, Nimishoo? Dubbya's a 'new kind of Republican.' One who sounds more like Adam Weishaupt than Ronald Reagan. He's a team player, just like his dad. He won't do anything to upset the one-world applecart." Tackanash gave me a knowing look. "Ah, but Dubbya is closer to his mother than his father. That's the problem." "Barbara Bush!?" I shot him a disbelieving glance. "You've got to be kidding." "I wish I was, youngster," he said, rubbing the back of his neck. "She can be vindictive. She's bitter about the way the family was booted out of the White House eight years ago. They're afraid Dubbya might listen to her advice and retaliate against them." "Who are they, Nimishoo?" "Your pals in Jerusalem--the Sages." "What are they worried about? Dubbya's as much of an Israel-booster as Al Gore. If the Promised land gets into a bind, Dubbya will come riding to the rescue." He shrugged. "They already have their Roosevelt. Why take the risk?" Fuming, I said, "I assume there's a compelling reason for the Assahollahs interfering in our election." "There's too many born-again Christians running around on Michimackinakong. Too many talk shows. Too vocal. Too outspoken. They want to do something about it." His tone gave me the shivers. "The war gives them an excuse. Those Jesus- shouters are going to fall under the tomahawk." While I was still digesting all this, Tackanash tilted his head. "Go on up the trail. Your little friends want to say hello." So I kept on walking up the trail, mindful of the overflowing creek. At first I thought about what Tackanash had said. No election! Kind of a raw deal for Bush. To say nothing of Al Gore. And then I realized I had no idea where I was. I looked around. The forest was definitely in the eastern USA. New Hampshire? No, the roadside rocks were all wrong. Then I saw the bright red berries of a mountain ash up ahead. Okay. West Virginia, perhaps. Or eastern Kentucky or Tennessee. (Editor's Note: I've been to Kentucky but never to West Virginia or Tennessee.) At the bend, I noticed that the creek was actually flowing across the road, just starting to scour out ruts. I picked my steps carefully, hopping from flat stone to flat stone. Nevertheless, I ended up with wet sneakers. Then I rounded the bend and saw two of the Fatima seers, Francisco and Jacinta Marto. We greeted each other like long-lost relatives, shared a group hug and some banter and small-talk. I said, "I hear Wojytla gave you two a promotion." Inane jokes like that. And then the conversation got serious. "Tackanash gave me some pretty disturbing news," I remarked. "The Middle East will soon be at war. Thousands will be killed," Jacinta said, touching my sleeve. "It will go very hard for the Christians in your country, Joseph. The Shas Party is determined to root them out." "Many, many Christians will be persecuted, and more than a few will die," Francisco said. "Not in the USA." I shook my head. "Not in the land of Thomas Jefferson." "Jefferson is nothing to the Shas Party. They're going to send their cat's paws, the Democrats, after those who serve Jesus. They will use the war- emergency to destroy those who follow Christ." "Francisco, I have to know," I said in a murmur. "Are we up against it? Are these the Last Days?" Francisco shrugged. "Only God knows for certain." And I woke up. Trembling, I rolled over and glanced at the digital clock. 3:10 a.m. I groped for my notebook and jotted down some notes. Aside from the general content, there were a few things about this dream that bothered me. (1) Tackanash, a Native American, seemed more upset about the cancelled election. He seemed to take the mass persecution of Christians in stride. Sort of a "Well, that's the way it goes" attitude. (2) The persecution was the main topic with Francisco and Jacinta, that and the toll of war dead in the Middle East. They didn't seem that concerned about the political situation in the USA. (3) Hillary Rodham Clinton's race for the USA Senate is a big news story here. Yet neither Tackanash nor the Marto children made any mention of Hillary. Why not? (4) Why were we having this roadside meeting in the Appalachian Mountains? (5) How come these goofy dreams always take place on a Thursday? You know, sometimes there are dreams which you don't want to come true. This is one of them! Join us again in seven days for more UFO and paranormal news from around the planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup." See you then. UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2000 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on their websites or in newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared. ********************************************************* IMPORTANT Please Read: ====================== The Hunger Site --------------- http://www.thehungersite.com Every 3.6 seconds somebody starves to death. 3/4 of the deaths are children under 5. By visiting the Hunger Site and clicking on a button you can donate free food. There is absolutely no charge to you for the donation - the food is paid for by sponsors. Do this once a day (no more) and help make a difference! If you have a web site download a banner and give a link! ********************************************************* E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com> or use the Sighting Report Form at: http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com> UFOINFO: http://ufoinfo.com Official Archives of the UK UFO Network Bulletin, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine also available, plus archives of Filer's Files.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Weber From: Bill Weber <wweber1@sc.rr.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2027 20:33:28 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:27:51 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Weber >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:30:45 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Stacy >>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 16:22:30 -0400 >>From: Bill Weber <wweber1@sc.rr.com> >>Subject: Anonymity and Sharing? >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Ooh, cheap shot! But I had to take it. Sorry, Greg, and >apologies in advance. I know you won't hold it against me, and I >really am leaving on vacation this Friday. Just after I come up >with a parting potshot aimed at...well, never mind! Hi, Dennis, Thank's for the response... I think. (I'm always happy to naively host an opportunity for potshots.) But if "refused" is the more accurate word, why not use it? What do you think this lack of participation is all about? Best, Bill
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 27 UpDate: Re: CIA Director's Request For Roswell & UFO Files - From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 10:10:07 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:33:44 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: CIA Director's Request For Roswell & UFO Files - >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 02:57:58 +0200 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> >Subject: CIA Director's Request For Files On Roswell & UFO sightings >To: updates@sympatico.ca *** >Wednesday July 26 5:31 PM ET >U.S. Bill Aims for Order on CIA Declassification >By Tabassum Zakaria >WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The chairman of the House Intelligence >Committee on Wednesday said he would push for passage of >legislation this year aimed at reducing the burden on CIA >declassifiers overwhelmed by numerous special requests from >government officials. <snip> >Search For UFOs And >From 1993 to September 1999, the CIA conducted nine separate >special searches for documents on El Salvador, mainly related to >four churchwomen murdered there in 1980. There were 12 on >Guatemala related to the deaths of several Americans and for >records on the 1954 CIA-backed coup, the list said. <snip> >A CIA director also requested information on UFO sightings and >Roswell, New Mexico, a subject on which more than 2,700 pages >have been released, according to the list. What? 2700 pages? On UFOs and Roswell? Where? The CIA file was released in December 1978. It contained between 900 and 1000 pages. Less than a hundred pages have been released since, so far as know. Does anyone have these 2700 pages? (Are they mixing this up with paranormal/psychic/remote viewing pages released?)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: Spacenapping - Easton From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:42:07 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 00:24:17 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Spacenapping - Easton Regarding: >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:02:27 +0100 >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Subject: UpDate: Spacenapping [was: Re: Selling Files] Jenny wrote: >In my experience of UK abduction research I have encountered a >number of cases where there is no question that an abduction >like experience was reported by the witness whilst they had not >physically travelled anywhere. Jenny, I have co-incidentally just noticed details of an article which may be related (I haven't read it) and of possible interest to some UpDates subscribers: "Abductions That Never Leave the Ground. Hilary Evans, author of 'Intrusions' and many other books, looks at the history of claims of alien abductions". Published in 'The Skeptic', Volume 12, No. 1, 1999. Further details at: http://www.skeptic.org.uk/ [See - Click these links to find out more about the skeptical viewpoint on UFOs, astrology, alien abductions...] James Easton. E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk www.ufoworld.co.uk This message was sent by Easymail - http://www.easynet.co.uk/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Hammond From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:29:27 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 00:27:26 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Hammond >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 18:39:26 -0500 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:49:23 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>To: updates@sympatico.ca ><snip> >>Most researchers with whom I have had some exposure will first >>attempt to _rule out_ the abduction scenario. Then they will >>refer the child to traditional medics. >Jim, >Get a Gripple. For starters, how many researchers have you been >personally exposed to? And, yes, it's OK to name names. How many >of those personal exposures involved children who were >subsequently referred to traditional medics, knowledge of which >you were personally privy to? Of those, what was the ultimate >diagnosis? Sorry, man, but you're blowing smoke here. >>There are so many young children out there who have had >>experiences for which there is no explanation. - JM >Based on what database? Your assertion of same? - DS ><snip> >>See what I mean? In the case of parents and their children, the >>diagnosis would expand from children to parents. Which is why I >>disagree with Dennis Stacey's comment about such phenom not >>being in the medical literature. People just don't want that >>kind of grief and finger pointing. And I do not blame them one >>dot. Parents just don't want to go through that embarrassment. - JM >What kind of grief and finger pointing? Do you think that most >parents would fail to seek help for a child for their own >undergoing series of traumatic experiences because they thought >it might embarrass them? The existing psychological literature >is replete with cases of people who have come forward with their >experiences and problems. In fact, that's pretty much what the >case history of psychology consists of. (Try reading "The >50-Minute Hour" sometime -- at least I think that's the name). >Why single out abductions for exception, especially prior to the >age of AF-induced ridicule? >My point remains: Why hasn't so much as a _hint_ of this >pervasive problem and experience surfaced anywhere else other >than in the commercial UFO literature? Dear Dennis: Just this morning I swore on my son's head that I was through posting and I was going to catch up on all my housework! What willpower, huh? ;) I can tell you from first hand knowledge that there are parents who will _not_ seek help for a child undergoing trauma due to embarrassment. I would liken it to children of alcoholics. In the past, very often,( and this is in the literature), if a child actually did speak out about the trauma they were undergoing living in an alcoholic family, the parents and even other siblings, would band together to "protect" the Hidden Secret, most often because of embarrassment. Or the parent feared loss of his or her job if it became common knowledge. Usually, the reporting child was branded a "Liar", or he/she was "attention seeking". It's taken many years for this to changes. In our society now, the child is believed unless or until it is proven otherwise. When I was in school (1975), we had no School psychologists, no social workers. Really, no one to turn to. I can remember when just saying the word "incest" was whispered, and it was right up there on the dirty word list next to the Big "F" word. Now, go into any Adolescent Treatment Facility and you are bound to find one if not several victims of Child Sexual Abuse. We have only just reached the point where our Society can accept that this really does happen. I can remember when the thought of this so horrified people that they simply would not accept that it could be happening. The child MUST be making it up! It has taken many years and a good bit of development of social conscious for things like Father/daughter Incest, child Abuse, Alcoholism to make it into the light of day and into the literature. Now, all these things are freely accepted, the Social Workers intervene, and everyone is supposed to jump into therapy. I feel we are about where we were 20 years ago as far as Abduction is concerned. In my own (admittedly limited) experience. It seems that it's only been in the last three or four years that _some_ parents are trying to get help for their child. There's nothing in the Literature because there was not, until very recently, anything to report. Now, I know of several parents who have children who are experiencing a host of emotional problems, starting at age 2 or 3. For the most part they present as PTSD sufferers (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, or as has been recently coined,( Post Traumatic Abduction Disorder). I know of a fine article on this (PTAD) which I'll forward to you if you don't mind. These kids suffer from sleep disorders, panic attacks, separation anxiety, and much more. Now, our culture seems to have become accustomed to "Alien" images. They are in magazine ads, TV ads, TV programs, Movies. I get a catalog every month and it's incredible how much of it is taken up with "alien" merchandise. Dolls, spaceships, key chains, little games, cake molds, etc., etc. people are starting to feel more comfortable and being more honest about what their child _might_ be going through. For the most part because the parents or parent was very likely a child Abductee. This parent knows first hand what the child is feeling and suffering through. It stinks when you can't tell you're child that there is NO boogie man in the closet! It's difficult to find doctor, psychiatrist or therapist who is open to the possibility of abduction, but it's not impossible. I have done it, and I know of two sets of parents who have done it. For the record, hypnosis is not, nor will it be, part of the therapy. Basically, the kid's symptoms are being addressed. The possible abductions are really not even being mentioned. I think it should come as no surprise that the kid's seem to like it this way. Given that technically, at least, these kid's are not being treated specifically for Abduction it will probably be some years yet before any of this starts to make it's way into the Literature. How long has it taken for UFO's to make it into any mainstream Scientific Journals? Has anything concerning UFO's, of a positive nature, ever made it into one of the Internationally recognized peer reviewed Journals? But patience, these things take time. Maybe in ten years or so all of this, UFO's, Abductions, will be considered part of respectable Science and will be written up in of the Journals without any fanfare. Just another article. One can only hope, right? Oh, one last thing. Is this discussion about a specific researcher known to be hypnotizing kids, or has this argument been built on the hypothesis that some of them may have? Thanks. Yours, Liz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 14:16:22 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 00:31:34 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Mortellaro >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 18:41:40 -0400 >From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 22:10:00 -0400 (EDT) >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:57:46 -0400 >>>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >>>Subject: Re Open Letter to Elizabeth Carbenter and Gary Hart >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >>>>Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:35:46 -0500 >>>>Subject: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And>Gary Hart - >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:50:49 -0400 >>>>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>>>Subject: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart >>>>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>>>I would like to make a very public request for a copy of the >>>>>list of names and addresses of the 140 abductees whose files >>>>>were sold. I am asking you Elizabeth and Gary because both of >>>>>you have told me repeatedly that you have this list. >>>>>It's time to notify these people that their privacy and >>>>>anonymity may have been seriously compromised. They need to be >>>>>able to decide for themselves whether they wish to pursue the >>>>>matter or ignore it. The point is; it is _their_ choice. They >>>>>cannot make any decision if they do not know. >>>>>John, >>>>Elizabeth might give you the list right away. I think the most >>>>responsible thing for me to do is to ask several people on it >>>>what they think. I have talked to them before and I may need to >>>>remove them or remove names of persons who do know and want >>>>their own anonymity. Even this is a sticky issue until approved >>>>or adjusted as requested by those involved, ok? I need to act >>>>responsibly as I have pledged to them to do so I will get back >>>>with you in a couple days. I, and they, sincerely appreciate >>>>your concern! ><snip> >Hi Jim, >We've never exchanged posts before [CRS moment - at least I >don't think we have when I was here a couple of years ago], so >let me use this opportunity to tell you that you've got a great >twisted sense of humor. Having one myself, I can attest to it's >value - especially in this biz. Good thing we can laugh. It >interrupts the self inflicted head-banging that this field so >often initiates. Actually the proper word is "Grippled!" But thank you for at least recognizing it for what it is. Some folks around these here parts think it is something else... stupid... insincere... damaging... and etc. Far from it. I like to twist the truth around so people can face it squarely in their kissers. Sometimes seeing it from the satirical point of view helps the understanding glands work better. >>Ann Mulvey, who I believe to be quite sincere, is now yelling >>at Hart. It seems that the target is now you, Gary. and if I >>read it correctly, Ann, you now want Gary to pass it on to >>Velez, Sandow and EBK. >I'm upset with Gary because: >1. He lied and thereby wasted my time and others with efforts >that I'm tired of mentioning. >2. He continues to state and believe that notifying the >remaining 120 families is second to going after John Carpenter. >I agree that it will hit the fan when these folks learn that >their family's personal information has been sold and is in >Biggies hands. Short of tying John Carpenter up in a chair and >forcing him to call these people, there isn't a fair way to >delegate the potential outrage. It will surely be there, in >varying degrees with each contact, whatever medium is used. That >potential outcome can't negate their right to know. These >families need to be informed yesterday. >I've known John Velez for a few years. I've always known him to >be a straight arrow. It was he who suggested that he, EBK and >Greg work on drafting a letter to these remaining 120, getting >the ball rolling. Given what I know of John's passion for >abductee rights, Errol's ethics in managing this board and >John's recommendation that Greg, who has worked with abductees >also work on such a project, I have no reason to believe that >the list of names wouldn't remain safely and responsibly in >their hands. >Having said all that, the above plan isn't going to happen. At >this point, I don't care what the plan is as long as there is a >plan to notify these families. I'm waiting to hear from Gary. He >tried to dismiss me, then himself, but I've still got questions, >so I'll hang on to my Irish waiting for that response ;) Dear Ann and All... including the great EBK who started all this, I understand you and your intentions quite clearly. But look, since this crappola began, finger pointing has rotated around faster than one of those Astronaut testing thingies, you know, the ones what make the lips of the astronaut pull back from the gravity drenching? It almost looks terribly funny. I can visualize say, 120 people or so, running around like a swarm of bees attacking Carpenter. Suddenly, in the middle of the stinging attack, the entire swarm turns as if on some electric radio kind of cue, and goes after someone else... say NIDS... then the same thing begins all over again... Hart is next, etc. Good Lord, Ann. This is ridiculous. There is no doubt over the fact that wrong has been done to some folks. But cheeses, who the hell gave _anyone_ the right to point, criticize and literally attempt to destroy the players here? And especially as the facts in this case are really _not_ known. I am not in Carpenter's heart of hearts, nor Bigelow's., nor anyone else's. But in my view, this is turning into a witch hunt, having come from the direction of Chinese Fire Drill. I suppose, darlin, I just had enough of the accusations. I'm now tired of this. The facts as we know them, allow us to understand that people have been wronged. We also know the players. Knowing this, we all understand where the responsibilities rest, in whose hands. John Velez? You? Me? Not bloody likely. Now it is up to the players to decide among themselves what the hell to do about this issue. I think the time for finger pointing has ceased. The time is now for the players, the holders of the information to do what is right. And spreading this list around is, in my personal opinion, silly. At this point, it is interesting to note that we still have prisons and workhouses... and lawyers and the courts. It's time for someone to collect a lawyer and see if the case can be taken on by the proper authorities. What I have witnessed is not proper legal procedure. Rather, I am witnessing a lynch mob. And frankly, it does not sit well on my digestion. Just my two cents plain plan. Jim PS: I still love you. It's just that I love Pia Zadora much, much more. And I love her in s very filthy way, too.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: Voodoo Science - Deardorff From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:33:45 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 00:32:39 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Voodoo Science - Deardorff >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 23:18:39 -0400 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: Voodoo Science >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Send this to you friends... and others! >New York Academy of Voodoo Sciences? >by >Bruce Maccabee >July, 2000 That was a nice write-up, Bruce. I'm saving it in case I run into anyone who needs the reminder, or who was taken in by Park's book. Unfortunately, this kind of writeup is all too common within "science" or "scholarship." Someone writes a total distortion about some event or case which mainstream science, if they hear about it, considers "far out." Then he can expect to receive kudos from his colleagues, and enhance his reputation as a hard-nosed skeptical scientist. And his colleagues drop any skeptical attitude when it comes to his article or book, because they are happy to assume that his conclusions are correct. Jim Deardorff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Hart - Mulvey From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:55:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 00:36:24 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Hart - Mulvey >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 03:05:45 -0400 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Hart >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 17:59:03 -0400 >>From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Hart - Hart >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:57:45 -0500 >>>From: geehart@frontiernet.net >>>Subject: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth Carpenter And Gary Hart >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:37:52 -0400 >>>>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>>>Subject: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Gary >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>Gary: >>>>The most responsible thing you can think of to do is pass the >>>>buck one more time? Just get off your wishy washy butt and get >>>>on the phone! Either phone these people or word a _very_ tactful >>>>letter, or fax them or e-mail them. Just do something for god's >>>>sake. >>>>Liz >>>Oh, Liz is out, too. Interesting. No further responses to Liz, >>>Ann, John unless something really imaginative is said. >>Gary, I graduated from Highschool in 1974. That ended the era >>where I allowed myself to be _dismissed_. The last time that was >>done to me, it was by a nun who probably outweighs you in >>stature and facial hair. Her comedic value was greater too. >>>You seem to have gotten lost somewhere. >>You're right. >>I believe it was somewhere between you acting as head >>cheerleader to my waste of time encouraging the online world >>with emails, discussion lists and phone calls to Bigelow and >>NIDS, asking that they notify the families, when you had the >>list all along and could have been in the process of informing >>these people yourself. Hi John, >Listen kid, [winking knowing you're only 6 years older than me] >I know how pissed you are for all the time and energy that you >and some of the folks over at CompuServe put into trying to >help out the abductees whose files were sold. What is infuriating to me is that this particular waste of time took focus away from those families who could have been notified by those parties holding this list. Since Gary set himself up and has gone so far as to draft hundreds of pages on this issue, I remain rather stupified that this priority isn't screaming in his face as it is for you, me and others. >I have already copped to being partly to blame for that, (and I >appologized on this List to all the folks at CompuServe) for >waiting and waiting for Gary to put it on the table himself. >I've been a bit apprehensive all along about getting myself too >'identified' as some kind of central character in all of this >and I may have hesitated to yank this guys cover longer than I >should have. For that I am sorry. As always I appreciate your upfront attitude. I know exactly where you were coming from, and had I been in a similar position, I probably would have done the same thing. At least you didn't encourage us. As for hesitating to get too 'identified', I can understand that too. I know the personal stress that's involved in taking people on. In this medium it would be all to easy to click off, but neither you nor I and other noble souls on this list can do that - in spite of ourselves.<g> >But, (and the point of this post) Gary has bid us all a fond >adieu! His last 'word' to us was "Bye!" Sooooo, let's just give >em what he's asked for and color him gone. ;) I gave Gary one last opportunity to let this community know that his priorities included notifying those families. His posts over the past day, especially the one directed at John Carpenter has spoken volumes regarding the lack of concern to make a plan, as well as his lack of responsibility towards his accountablity to do so. Gary could have been part of the solution for these families. >Mr. Carpenter himself has responded on the list Ann. _He's_ the >guy that should have notified the abductees to begin with. Talk >to John Carpenter himself Ann Oh I did.<g>My post hadn't appeared when you wrote this. >Let's all just move on to more positive and productive >endeavors. Hart is a bring down. This whole thing is a let down. Gary just represents some salt, and Carpenter an open oozing wound. If there are more positive and productive endeavors surrounding this issue, please clue me in.<g> Meanwhile, I'd like to be told by somebody that these families are in the process of being told what has happened. Take care John, Ann
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Mulvey From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:13:36 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 00:38:34 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Mulvey >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 00:23:09 -0400 (EDT) >From: John Carpenter <StarmanJC@aol.com> >Subject: Re: John Carpenter Responds >To: updates@sympatico.ca John, Can you please tell this list if you intend to notify the 120 families who have remained ignorant for over three years that you have sold their abduction files? We all await your response. Sincerely, Ann Mulvey
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: UFO Report: Ashtabula and Trumbull Counties, Ohio - From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:46:50 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 00:39:44 -0400 Subject: UpDate: UFO Report: Ashtabula and Trumbull Counties, Ohio - Subject: UFO Sighting Location: Between East Liverpool and Ashtabula, Ohio, Route 11 Date: Saturday night [July 22]/Sunday morning [July 23] Time: Between 11:00 p.m. to 1:00 a.m. Three motorists advised the Ashtabula County Highway Patrol office that they were "surrounded and paced by multiple red lights" while traveling northbound for nearly 40-miles on Route 11 between East Liverpool and Ashtabula, Ohio [Trumbull and Ashtabula Counties] around midnight on Saturday night, July 22. The three motorists, ages range from between 60 to 70-years, were viewed as highly credible by Northeastern Ohio researcher George Pindroh, who interviewed them on Sunday, July 23. The key witness is an ex-law enforcement officer. Pindroh, contacted for a statement on this report, graciously afforded information of the sighting. He also expressed his respect for the privacy of the witnesses. Pindroh told of how the threesome, while driving late at night on a desolate stretch of Route 11, became alarmed as a red glow came into view. One passenger asked the driver if the light source was a truck on the road. As they continued to travel toward the light source, they report that 'many lights' suddenly became visible 'all around' their vehicle. One light was extremely huge [estimated to be at least 3-feet in diameter] and the other lights were smaller, basketball sized objects that were strangely seen all around the car, on top, on each side and in back of their auto, a Cadillac. The witnesses related to Pindroh that the lights, estimated to number almost 35 at one time, were thought to be attached to one larger, unseen object, rather than free-flying light sources. The lights, said to be very close to and above the car, paced the threesome as they drove an estimated 40-miles along Route 11, headed south to north. One passenger told Pindroh of being "scared to death." While driving along with the lights in pursuit, there was no traffic seen on Route 11 with the exception of one other car. It was thought that this car had stopped and its driver was looking out his window at the lights. The threesome, however, continued on without stopping. While traveling on, the ex-law enforcement officer reported to Pindroh that they had experienced an unusual 'dark area' that coincided with a disruption involving the car's burglar alarm system. The electronic car alarm was said to have 'went off' repeatedly while they drove along, further contributing to the mayhem. Strangely, a rain-like moisture had also accumulated on the bottom half of the windshield on the front exterior portion of the car. "As best as they could describe," Pindroh reported, "a strange darkness occurred and everything went black." The claimants informed that the lights seemed to 'go to the left' and toward the front of their car as they approached their home. The first thing they did when entering the house was to rush to the phone and place a call to the police. In investigation of the claims, researcher George Pindroh contacted the Ashtabula County State Highway Patrol office on Tuesday, July 25 and confirmed the advisement to their office of numerous red-lights by the claimants. Pindroh also learned that there were additional calls about 'red lights' received at the same office around the same time frame, and yet another call was received at the Highway Patrol Office on Sunday concerning red lights seen on Saturday night. Learning that the automobile was later found to have had its pre-programmed radio stations 'reset' and its clock also found to be inaccurate due to electronic default, Pindroh consulted with a Cadillac dealer concerning the alarm system disruption and the radio/clock issue. The dealer was not able to fully explain the electronic oddities, noting that if the car had lost power during the experience, the driver would know as power steering would be lost and the car would have to be re-started. Further, the moisture on the vehicle as described by the witnesses is not compatible with condensation from the air conditioning system, according to the Cadillac dealer. Thanks to George Pindroh of the Cleveland UFOlogy Project [CUP] for the preliminary details of this sighting that was reported to the Ashtabula County State Highway Patrol office and releasing the information for this summary. Pindroh further advises that a full and more detailed report on this case is pending. Filed: July 27, 2000 Kenny Young -- UFO Research http://home.fuse.net/ufo/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Ufological Code of Conduct - [US] From: Jim Klotz <jklotz77@foxinternet.net> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 14:32:36 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 00:45:16 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Ufological Code of Conduct - [US] * - Please forward to other lists and interested parties - * Dear UpDates list members, Recently when I published our draft of a Ufological Code of conduct, I expected more comment and input than I received. Frankly, I'm baffled. This is something about which I thought most folks would at least have an opinion, especially during the current uproar over transgressions (real or perceived.) We believe that precipitous action on a Code is not the right course of action at this point. We haven't moved to institute our code; * we are asking that every interested person please consider reading over our draft code and providing some comment. * I have now posted the draft at: <http://www.cufon.org/standards/draftcode.htm> Where a more complete background of why and how the draft came to be is available. I've made a few changes based on input from a few folks who support the idea, and will continue to make such changes. I will soon provide a mechanism on the web site so you can track the changes that have been made to the draft. Be assured that we are committed to this project and fully intend to press ahead. Thanks, we are looking forward to your input. Jim Klotz CUFON SYSOP
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: Voodoo Science - Carey From: Tom Carey <TCarey1947@aol.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:38:32 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 00:51:59 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Voodoo Science - Carey >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 23:18:39 -0400 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: Voodoo Science >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >New York Academy of Voodoo Sciences? >by >Bruce Maccabee >July, 2000 To Bruce and List: The only "Voodoo Science" I saw in the article which appeared in The Sciences magazine - published under the imprimatur of the NY Academy of Sciences - was that practiced by Prof. Park. He apparently relied heavily on the 1997 book by Benson Saler, Charles B. Moore and another anthropologist whose name I can't remember, titled: UFO Crash At Roswell: Genesis Of A Modern Myth, which swallowed the Mogul Hypothesis hook, line and sinker without so much as a blink. Real "scientific" there. I reviewed the book for CUFOS' International UFO Report a few years ago, and my rebuttal to Prof. Park has been accepted for publication by The Sciences and will appear in their Sept./Oct. issue. Tom Carey
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Is Your Mind Made Up? From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:49:58 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 00:55:30 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Is Your Mind Made Up? "Do you have a definite stance regarding the nature behind the UFO phenomenon and, if so, what is it?" I'm not asking for any sort of logical reason or scientific justification for why you believe what you do. (that's why this is an 'opinion' poll...) And if you answer "yes" to the first part, and don't feel comfortable answering the second part, that's fine -- in that case just put a "--". e.g. I'm looking for response like: "No / --" "Yes / military" "Yes / ET" "Yes / --" etc. Of course, if you feel like expounding, go ahead. But my motivation here is to get a sense of how many people have already made up their minds about things, _not_ what they necessarily believe.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Brigham From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:54:00 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 00:58:49 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Brigham So this whole thing about private information being compromised, we now find out, is based on allegations made by John Carpenter's ex-wife that came out as a result of an ugly divorce. Forgetting all the other stuff she accuses him of (which is not my business or my concern), it would have been nice if the self-appointed champions of the cause had the gall to notify us of this fact, so we could take it for what it's worth and chose to not be involved in such crap if we so decided. If all identifying info was censored as Mr Carpenter states, then we are dealing with a completely different issue (although the issue of a licensed social worker sharing _any_ info still remains). If this turns out to merely be a he said/she said and a sad attempt by some of those involved to draw attention, well I wish we could have been spared the waste of bandwidth and oxygen. Ufology sure is consistent in it's bull at least! <as he get's his itchy delete key finger ready to start working on this thread
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: UFO TV Documentaries? - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 19:34:28 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:15:58 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: UFO TV Documentaries? - Balaskas >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 00:07:23 -0400 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> >Subject: 'UFOs/Flying Saucers Are Real' Videos >To: 'UFO Updates' <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >I also didn't like how you declared their story true, and gave >all sorts of credence to Marjorie Fish. When I watched the Fish >interview all I could think was: "Bible Codes ... Bible Codes >... Bible Codes ..." >i.e. if you wanted to, you could probably find a position and >viewing angle somewhere in this galaxy that would let you see >"STANTON" spelled out in the stars -- so, I give very little >credence to a such a position/angle found that matches a >shoddily drawn map that was retrieved under hypnosis from a >fuzzy memory. No way. <snip> Hi Ron. I suggest that you purchase a reprint of the 'The Zeta Reticuli Incident' written by Terence Dickinson and published in the December 1974 issue of 'Astronomy' magazine. I think you should still be able to get a copy from Stan Friedman. Carefully reread the follow-up commentaries by Carl Sagan and others which agree with your beliefs expressed above and the rebuttals by Marjorie Fish and others and then decide who presented the most logical and scientific arguments. As a result of Betty Hill's curiousity and Marjorie's solid research, we now know with some degree of certainty the star (Zeta Reticulli) where at least one race of E.T. neighbours to us originate from. Apart from the false report of the discovery of a large planet orbiting very near Zeta Reticuli which was quickly retracted, I am very optimistic that Earth size planets further away from this star (as well as for all the other stars connected by solid or dashed lines in Betty's map) will soon be discovered. Nick Balaskas
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: Venezuelan Spectacular Sighting? - YoungB From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 20:55:49 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:18:08 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Venezuelan Spectacular Sighting? - YoungB >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 01:15:15 -0700 >Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 10:33:37 -0400 >Subject: UpDate: Re: Venezuelan Spectacular Sighting? - Hatch >An "inverted cone" is one with the... >a) Pointed end up, like an indian teepee [ ] >b) Pointed end down, like an old fashioned ice cream cone. [ ] >c) Pointed end to one side, like an "italian coffee pot " or a > megaphone [ ] Larry, Ron, George: Yup! Ya got me there. H'mm. What exactly would an "inverted cone/fin" look like? Probably the balancing motion got me thinking. This report needs more informaiton, that's for sure. Clear skies, Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: CIA Director's Request For Files On Roswell & UFO From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 21:34:27 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:19:47 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: CIA Director's Request For Files On Roswell & UFO >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 02:57:58 +0200 >Subject: UpDate: CIA Director's Request For Files On Roswell & UFO >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Source: Reuters via Yahoo! News, >http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20000726/pl/cia_documents_dc_1.html >Wednesday July 26 5:31 PM ET >U.S. Bill Aims for Order on CIA Declassification >By Tabassum Zakaria >WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The chairman of the House Intelligence >Committee on Wednesday said he would push for passage of >legislation this year aimed at reducing the burden on CIA >declassifiers overwhelmed by numerous special requests from >government officials. >Those special requests from administration officials and members >of Congress have asked CIA declassifiers to search for documents >on everything from UFOs to murdered churchwomen in El Salvador >to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Anybody on this List, The proposed law would "prioritize" requests for information from Members of Congress? Are they serious, or is this just a phony publicity stunt for the politically naive? Clear skies, Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 21:45:05 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:46:41 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mortellaro >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 18:39:26 -0500 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:49:23 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>To: updates@sympatico.ca ><snip> >>Most researchers with whom I have had some exposure will first >>attempt to _rule out_ the abduction scenario. Then they will >>refer the child to traditional medics. >Jim, Dear Dennis, Those listing ( stay off the Gripple when you post here - for warned is for armed... forarmed, whatever, and EBK, >Get a Gripple. For starters, how many researchers have you been >personally exposed to? And, yes, it's OK to name names. Five. One was Budd Hopkins. Two of the others were jerks and the remaining two I shall keep to myself for good reason, mostly personal. What the hell difference does it make, anyway? I'm still a big boy, I am able and as you can see from my posts, I can and do form my own opinionsk, eh? >How many >of those personal exposures involved children who were >subsequently referred to traditional medics, knowledge of which >you were personally privy to? Of those, what was the ultimate >diagnosis? Sorry, man, but you're blowing smoke here. Absolutely none. I am not privy to these matters. For one thing, it ain't none of my business. For another, I've concentrated only on my own problems and memories. Most of which involved _me_ at a very tender age. From two years old, to be exact. Regarding the aforementioned researchers I asked each of them many questions. And I also paid attention to their answers. I wanted, for example, to know if these people had any cases involving children and what the modus operandi was. Since my memories of this phenom began at such as early age, I wanted to know if it was commonly shared by others. >>There are so many young children out there who have had >>experiences for which there is no explanation. >Based on what database? Your assertion of same? In researching my own experiences for later publication, I have interviewed about 40 people, about my age, who claim to have had early experiences. My interest is obvious, as my experiences were pretty much pre-TV, pre-media and books, etc. Certainly not enough to call a database, but sufficient in my mind to justify forming an opinion about people like me. I've been very thorough in the matter of asking the right questions without volunteering one word which would either give or take support from the statements. If somneone told me a fact, I did not respond with, "Wow, the same thing happened to me" or "Gee, that's never happened to me." In the case of my book, I wanted the answers to be to questions the abductee had, not answers to my questions. Those, I got to later in the interview. Wherever possible, the interview was on their turf, in their homes. This has cost me a good deal in travel and lodging over the past seven months. And I aint' done yet. Hell, I ain't no expert. Except when it comes to my own experiences and those of others who can verify them without any prodding or leading. Most of those are people who are or were members of various abduction lists and also, those who were referred to me by certain researchers, with the permission of the abductee, of course. Which is one reason I do not wish to mention any names. Second, I may very well be blowing smoke, but I don't think so. Not when it comes to this subject. Lots of things have become obvious regarding our shared experiences. We share similar (but with interestingly different takes) experiences. We share very similar illnesses and have so for most of our lives. Etc. ><snip> >>See what I mean? In the case of parents and their children, the >>diagnosis would expand from children to parents. Which is why I >>disagree with Dennis Stacey's comment about such phenom not >>being in the medical literature. People just don't want that >>kind of grief and finger pointing. And I do not blame them one >>dot. Parents just don't want to go through that embarrassment. >>Jim Mortellaro >What kind of grief and finger pointing? Do you think that most >parents would fail to seek help for a child for their own >undergoing series of traumatic experiences because they thought >it might embarrass them? Of course not. But when it comes to aliens, the embarrassment factor is a large part of the parents' decision-making process. Most expecially during the late forties and the fifties, when the ridicule factor and finger pointing was at it's highest. And frankly, this is the time frame on which I have been concentrating. >The existing psychological literature >is replete with cases of people who have come forward with their >experiences and problems. In fact, that's pretty much what the >case history of psychology consists of. (Try reading "The >50-Minute Hour" sometime -- at least I think that's the name). >Why single out abductions for exception, especially prior to the >age of AF-induced ridicule? The ridicule to which I referred was not of the child, but of the parents. It is they who are exposed to ridicule purely on the basis of their children's perceived experiences. This includes ridicule by peers, not to mention by the physicians. Hey, Dennis, I and many to whom I've spoken, and our parents, have been thru this crappola before. In this particular case, I speak from my own experience, and the experiences of most of the others ... all 40 or so of us. >My point remains: Why hasn't so much as a _hint_ of this >pervasive problem and experience surfaced anywhere else other >than in the commercial UFO literature? I don't know, Dennis. I was reaching when I gave the excuse of possible embarrassment. It's the only thing which to me, makes any sense. What the hell do I know anyway? Seriously. My intentions are to refute what I believe to be wrong assumptions on your part, in this particular matter. What do you think the reason is? >Dennis Stacy Jim Mortellaro
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 22:18:49 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:49:18 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Mortellaro >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 06:20:54 -0400 >From: Steve W. Kaeser <Steve@konsulting.com> >Subject: Re: John Carpenter Responds >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 20:41:56 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: John Carpenter Responds >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >Let me begin by thanking John Carpenter for his response to this >issue. There is a discussion that needs to take place, and most >of it is not directly related to the transfer of data that has >caused so much concern. ><snip> >>>The main reason I had not responded for a long time is that I >>>was never called or asked by anyone for 3 years to respond to >>>this issue. I only recently became aware of the Internet gossip. >>>I have to be informed to be able to respond. I just now received >>>your e-mail as I have been off-line for 3 weeks, so that is why >>>I had not written you regarding your e-mail. I have also just >>>read quickly your Web posted article. >><snip> >>>-- John Carpenter, MSW, LCSW > >>Dear Listers, >>If the above is true, and from my side, I cannot doubt Mr. >>Carpenter's explanation in light of all the accusations I've >>heard and read, then don't a lot of you feel like complete >>idiots? >>No? >Actually, there are important issues raised by this issue. We may be >chasing down the wrong tangents from time to time, but the thread has >some points that probably need to be addressed. > >>Well, you should. At the very least, any sane person would have >>to agree that such a message casts significant doubt on all the >>BS which has been making the rounds aboot UpDates and elsewhere. >The message shows that there are always two sides to a story and >those who want to sit in judgment should make sure they have all >the facts before they begin battle. >(IMO) The issue boils down to the question of whether or not >files with confidential information were sold, or if those files >were "sanitized" (if a transfer took place, which is apparently >true). John Velez has indicated that several abductees have >recovered their files and found that information was freely >visible, but the source of John's information becomes critical. >If this only comes through Carpenter's ex-spouse, this could >shed a new light on the matter. She would likely have had access >to confidential information prior to their split and is >certainly not a dis-interested third party. If, on the other >hand, several abductees have contacted John independently and >have correspondence directly from Bigalow that confirms that >confidential information has been passed, then Carpenter's >explanation would appear to be questionable. >Walt Andrus made a statement to John Velez that an >"Investigation" was on going into this matter. While an official >investigation may not have actually been underway at this point, >his statement (as the Director of MUFON at that time) carries >certain weight and IMO requires a follow up response with the >results of that probe. IMO, the fact that Walt has indicated >that the matter is being looked into should not imply that >improper actions have taken place. But a MUFON spokesman has >spoken, and I would hate to see this left hanging. >From material that I've seen, it is apparent that MUFON was >aware of the transfer of information to Bigalow as early as >1996-97, but this was apparently never discussed (or disclosed) >to the research subjects involved. A simple Consent Form would >give Carpenter permission to distribute "sanitized" research >material, and is used by the researchers in our area. This would >not give permission to release personal data, which would >require specific written authorization. >As has been pointed out, Carpenter comes under different >scrutiny as a result of his licensed profession. >Non-professional abduction researchers are bound only by general >privacy laws, while Carpenter must follow a strict set of >guidelines when dealing with clients. His response draws a very >clear line in the sand between treatment and research, but the >matter is far more complex than that. He is bound by certain >ethics requirements and he cannot simply declare them null and >void if there is no treatment plan and money does not change >hands. This is the play area for lawyers. >But from the discussion, it appears that many abductees who have >agreed to become research subjects are surprised by this type of >information transfer (with or without personal information). I >also have the impression that they were not aware of the value >of that information as a commodity. While I don't think we're >going to see research files on E-Bay any time soon, there is >other UFO memorabilia that has been placed up for sale and who >knows what archives could end up on the auction block. >No. I don't feel like an idiot trying to unravel some of the >issues raised by this thread. IMO, Gotlib's "Code of Abduction >Research Ethics" (or whatever) should be re-affirmed by the >major researchers and research organizations and that could >become a first step in rebuilding confidence between abductees >and those who would like to perform honest research. >Of course, this is only MY opinion. >Steve I respect sane opinions, and nothing you've said bothers me. However I would love to tell you what does bother me. Finger pointing, nasty emails making accusations, name calling, flaming and going from one poor bastard to another. First it was Carpenter, then it was NIDS and Bigelow, then it was Hart, now it appears to be Hart and Carpenter. John Carpenter said his piece. Sounded reasonable to me. But everyone and anyone who had the balls to counter the name calling was viciously chastised. Horse manure. Monkey jiuce. Tyrannasaurus plop. From the beginning I have maintained that all the finger pointing was counter-productive. As for mending the rift between researchers and abductees, as for obtaining a clear path for sharing of data and files, these will take a good long time to fix. More damage has been done to UFOlogy (in my opinion) by the manner in which people have been roasted on this and other venues, as to negate the good which could have been done had this pile of stinking plotz been handled in a calm and sane manner, in a professional manner. I don't think it was handled appropriately. The first and most important reason I feel this way is simply arrived at by looking at how in a period of just a few short weeks (not even) we have changed direction and attacked whomever happened to respond to the accusations. Can anyone blame them for waiting to respond? Craps, even Hart, who had the information for (whatever the time frame he had it - depending on whom it is one listens to or believes, that was anywhere from three years to a few months) told us that he wrote Velez copious times, and even Velez stated that he was "pissed off" at Hart for whatever reason and did not answer Hart's email. What kind of silliness is this? No one, myself included, has comported his or her self well in this matter. That's what ticks me off. I am sick and tired of tirades and finger pointing. That's all. Nothing you said or wrote is wrong. Nothing was wrong in exposing the problem. However it all went wrong when it got personal and vindictive. God I hate it when that happens. I've said my pieces and I am done! I'm outta here. Cheeses, what have I said? I heard dat before but I cannot remember where nor can I recall just how many times I've heard it. Well, I ain't outta here. I'll stick around for as long as EBK allows me an occasional satire or rant or both. When he says I am done, I will go away, tail between legs. But let me make one last statement. Apparently, I have pissed off some folks here. Well, maybe one or so. But I resent having my friends written to, asking that they write me to tell me to back down on this particular issue, because it is too important. Cheeses, Mary and Giuseppi. Wait, lemme get some nails and a large cross made of wood. I'll even bring the hammer. I musta sounded like Pontius Pilot. I find no guilt in this man. As for the nails, etc., them's for me. You guys can decide amonget yourselves who may nail me to that cross. Apparently, I am guilty of having an opinion. I shall attempt never to do that again. Oh, BTW, that was not one person I heard from, that was several. What goes around, comes around. Mortimer Snurd, a dirty, rotten, no good, son of a speech!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Hart From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 23:19:38 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:52:23 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Hart >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 20:46:52 -0400 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >Subject: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Again, is Carpenter a caregiver or an investigator or both? (I >don't think one should be both!) >Not fair? No John not fair is bitting off a little piece that I >wrote to you and chewing it out here. >Jan I don't care 'who' does the notifying as long as it doesn't >go another _three_ years without doing. >Agreed, but perhaps, it might be wise to first determind if >anyone has actually been wronged and exactly by whom. John did not have any legal right to transfer file materials to any third party. He did so without anyone's permission. All 140 people have been wronged. This is the issue. This is the focus. John is a health care professional masquerading literally, according to him, as a hobbyist. Legally, a licensed clinical social worker is a 24-hr. hat. He is blatantly trying to evade MUFON's ethics case controls in place since '95. MUFON requires a MHP either to be present or to actually do hypnosis so John is in a catch-22: if he is a hobbyist he can't do what he did-hypnosis! Additionally, John contends that he can extract a person's story using hypnosis and then the story is his. You lost it, he has it. It is that simply. You lose_all_future control over your own experiences. He is a flashy charlatan. True professional medical people don't ever pull this kind of garbage. Gary Hart
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Essays On Abductions Gain Scholarly Nod From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 07:01:08 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:37:23 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Essays On Abductions Gain Scholarly Nod Source: Lawrence Journal-World, http://www.ljworld.com/section/frontpage/storypr/18642 Stig *** The Front Page UFO essays gain scholarly nod By Erwin Seba, Journal-World Reporter Thursday, July 27, 2000 * For most scholars, abductions by extraterrestrial aliens in unidentified flying objects are the stuff of Hollywood or grocery-store tabloids and not worthy of study by university faculty. That's why University Press of Kansas decided to publish a scholarly book on the topic. "The feeling among scholars is this is a disreputable field because it does not have the participation of people in the academy," said Michael Briggs, editor-in-chief of Lawrence-based University Press. "What the field really needs is the attention from the academy from a variety of different dimensions to bring the standards up," Briggs said. "This book is an attempt to jump-start interest in what is a very, very understudied field right now." "UFOs and Abductions" is a collection of essays by scholars and researchers studying the phenomena of UFO abductions from a variety of disciplines. There are examinations from the standpoint of history, psychology and neurology. The book was edited by David M. Jacobs, an associate professor of history at Temple University. "There is no consensus among the people in the book or in the field or coming from us about what it is," Briggs said. "The point of the book is to say there is an 'it' and it would be good for academics to study 'it.'" A Lawrence astronomer says there may be some value to such a point of view, but it must be weighed against the risk of giving credence to pseudoscience. "To say, 'Well, maybe there is something there worth studying' can be a dangerous thing," said Bruce Twarog, Kansas University professor of physics and astronomy. "The phrase 'something there' can mean anything to general public." Twarog said studying those who claim to be victims of UFO abduction would be like studying those who believe the Holocaust didn't happen. "It uses their acceptance of a fraudulent claim," he said. "There's nothing there worth studying." Even an area man who believes in UFOs thinks the book will never achieve its goal. "Scientists will not believe in UFOs until they land on the White House lawn," said Scott Corder, an Ottawa physician. Corder's medical license was suspended for three years in the early '90s because of his belief that UFOs bear messengers from God. "Humans studying UFOs? That's like an ant studying the X-rays from the sun," Corder said. Of the book, he said, "I think it's going to be another little bitty flash in the pan." With 3,500 copies of the book in print, about twice the usual press run for one of the publisher's political science volumes, Briggs hopes it will reach an audience beyond academics. "I like the idea this might be a breakthrough book," he said. In the three years the book has been in preparation, Briggs used three times the usual number of reviewers to make sure the book would not make University Press "look foolish." University Press of Kansas is supported by the six state universities overseen by the Kansas Board of Regents. University Press publishes about 60 titles a year. In fiscal year 2000 the publisher sold 181,354 books and had sales of just more than $2 million. "UFOs and Abductions" sells for $34.95 and can be ordered from University Press by calling 864-4155. Visit the University Press at http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/jacufo.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- Copyright � 2000, The Lawrence Journal-World, all rights reserved. Visit us at http://www.ljworld.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 01:36:13 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 19:44:11 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Mortellaro >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:54:00 -0500 >From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> >Subject: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >So this whole thing about private information being compromised, >we now find out, is based on allegations made by John >Carpenter's ex-wife that came out as a result of an ugly >divorce. >Forgetting all the other stuff she accuses him of (which is not >my business or my concern), it would have been nice if the >self-appointed champions of the cause had the gall to notify us >of this fact, so we could take it for what it's worth and chose >to not be involved in such crap if we so decided. >If all identifying info was censored as Mr Carpenter states, >then we are dealing with a completely different issue (although >the issue of a licensed social worker sharing _any_ info still >remains). >If this turns out to merely be a he said/she said and a sad >attempt by some of those involved to draw attention, well I wish >we could have been spared the waste of bandwidth and oxygen. >Ufology sure is consistent in it's bull at least! <as he get's >his itchy delete key finger ready to start working on this >thread Dear Tim, Lister Blisters and EBK (poor EBK, how does he up with this put?), Finally, the truth revealed. For what it's worth, I support you in this post. Sheesh, I never thought I would write those very words I so despise. Go should forgive me my transgressions. I am shriven. Shroved, uh, whatever. But it was done by a real Moyle. You can do me anytime and even in my 1993 5 Liter Mustang, blue printed... it rides real hard, but I trust you with a knife any time, Tim. Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Hart From: geehart@frontiernet.net Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 00:39:02 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 19:46:14 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Hart >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 01:42:18 -0400 (EDT) >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter >To: updates@sympatico.ca >I do predict that it will gain front page coverage in Phil >Klass's news letter. Robert, Where would you rather see the story first? In the MUFON Journal showing how MUFON is moving decisively to improve and enforce their ethical standards or in Klass's newsletter further tearing us apart? We and MUFON have to make this choice and now, not later. The sooner MUFON gets in front of this issue the better. ~Gary Hart
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: It Is Consumated From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 01:46:06 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 19:48:22 -0400 Subject: UpDate: It Is Consumated Dear List, EBK and especially yous, my Uncle Toto, I and my family wich to inform dis list, that we have taken care of dis sit shoe ashun. We have arranged for my uncle and his boys to ... uh ... whack all the poips in dis sad story. Woodman has been whacked by Johnny, Scungile, Morta Di Fam. Johnny has eliminated Mrs. the Woodman as well. The bodies will never be found. Gray Heart has been delivered to the same place we deliver old Labor Union Leaders. Never to be found again. NIPS is eliminated. We referred dem to the IRS. Bigeloe da tea guy, has been replaced by a clone we have been growing for years now. He won't be missed needer. As for the other players in dis sad saga, day will be severely chastised by da boys. Lotsa kneecaps will be broken dis very night. Rest easy all dose of yous who wish revenge. We did it for nuttin. Not even da joy of it. We did it for Ufology. So that it can get on wit da stuff UFOlogy and all dem resoichas should be doin. Nuttin. Jimmy "The Doc, " Gambini
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: Is Your Mind Made Up? - Brigham From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 01:08:33 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 19:56:44 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Is Your Mind Made Up? - Brigham >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:49:58 -0400 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> >Subject: Is Your Mind Made Up? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Thought this might represent a nice bookend to my regular participation, so .... >"Do you have a definite stance regarding the nature behind the >UFO phenomenon and, if so, what is it?" No. Nuff said ;-) Ok, ok you twisted my arm..... Probably composed of a whole mess of factors, including military, disinfo, psychosocial factors, hoaxing, mistakes, natural but undiscovered physical/astronomical events, neurological conditions/altered states and possibly, some form of unknown non-human intelligence. Maybe. Now mix those all together to consider that any one case might be the result of any or all of the above. Oi! The important thing, I think, is that I honestly admit I just don't know for sure. Best, Tim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: CIA Director's Request For Roswell & UFO Files - From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 02:08:46 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 19:59:23 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: CIA Director's Request For Roswell & UFO Files - >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 10:10:07 -0400 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: CIA Director's Request For Roswell & UFO Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 02:57:58 +0200 >>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> >>Subject: CIA Director's Request For Files On Roswell & UFO sightings >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >*** >>Wednesday July 26 5:31 PM ET >>U.S. Bill Aims for Order on CIA Declassification >>By Tabassum Zakaria >>WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The chairman of the House Intelligence >>Committee on Wednesday said he would push for passage of >>legislation this year aimed at reducing the burden on CIA >>declassifiers overwhelmed by numerous special requests from >>government officials. ><snip> >>Search For UFOs And >>From 1993 to September 1999, the CIA conducted nine separate >>special searches for documents on El Salvador, mainly related to >>four churchwomen murdered there in 1980. There were 12 on >>Guatemala related to the deaths of several Americans and for >>records on the 1954 CIA-backed coup, the list said. ><snip> >>A CIA director also requested information on UFO sightings and >>Roswell, New Mexico, a subject on which more than 2,700 pages >>have been released, according to the list. >What? 2700 pages? On UFOs and Roswell? Where? >The CIA file was released in December 1978. It contained between >900 and 1000 pages. Less than a hundred pages have been released >since, so far as know. Does anyone have these 2700 pages? >(Are they mixing this up with paranormal/psychic/remote viewing >pages released?) Bruce hits this one right on the head. I also got the original CIA release of UFO documents back in 78 or there abouts. And it was about 900 to a thousand pages. What was in the other 1700 pages? Ah ha, I, got it: More MJ-12 documents BEFORE they were filtered through Cooper/Woods. :) Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: 'Only Amoeba And Microbe Life Outside Earth' From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 08:22:45 +0200 Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 20:02:41 -0400 Subject: UpDate: 'Only Amoeba And Microbe Life Outside Earth' Source: San Francisco Chronicle, http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/07/26/MN3 4212.DTL Stig *** NOTES FROM HERE AND THERE Lewis Dolinsky Wednesday, July 26, 2000 �2000 San Francisco Chronicle ** <snip> A LONELY PLANET "All aliens are scum," concludes Robin McKie in the London Observer, reporting on the new conventional wisdom about extraterrestrial intelligence: There ain't none. Life on other planets, if there is any, is said to be at the amoeba and microbe level. Only Earth, because of its peculiar location, its stable sun and its large moon (which stabilizes Earth's rotation and thus its weather) produces intelligent life. We are special, after all. In 30 years of trying, we should have picked up some signal from outer space but have heard only static. McKie also provides the counterargument, quoting astrophysicist Martin Rees: "Intelligent beings may simply not want to talk to us." <snip> �2000 San Francisco Chronicle Page A11
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 03:00:44 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 20:06:14 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Gates >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:54:00 -0500 >From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> >Subject: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >So this whole thing about private information being compromised, >we now find out, is based on allegations made by John >Carpenter's ex-wife that came out as a result of an ugly >divorce. Not totally correct. The information is apparently based upon the testimony of at least 5 other abductee's who supposedly got their uncensored files back from Bigelow, AFTER four years had gone by. The entire issue was apparently known for the last 3 years by some/all MUFON board who apparently has done nothing. Along comes Gary Hart, who recently (within the last year?) found out about the issue and choose to conduct an investigation and write a report. By making this report and complaint he is forcing the MUFON board to either say yea, or no, i.e. go through organizational due process. As I mentioned, the issue has apparently been around and known about for some degree or another for the last 4 years, so whats another month or two? All the people who complained and moaned that allegedly JC didn't follow any code of ethics, instantly wanted Gary Hart to notify people or release the list (and violate abductee's privacy to yet more people) to various others who were going to draft letters, and do this and that. Point being is Gary should be supported for doing the leg work, nobody else did, and now that he is holding the course, i.e. allowing the MUFON board to make a decision. If MUFON chooses to do nothing, then he will have followed due process and I would see no problem with him releasing the entire report, _except_ for redacted private information. Out of all this we have had some interesting stories I had been told privately (no names were mentioned to me) that a private enity/person was funding alot of UFO research and that the people receiving the funding were "allegedly" providing copies of reports and files... apparently a standard practise. Somebody provides money and expects at least something in return. It was suggested to me that this is why some of the notables have been silent, or stay away from the issue. From JC's earlier post, he claims that Bigelow money is flowing through the entire UFO research community to some degree or another. MUFON, Stan Friedman, Jacobs and other names were mentioned as I recall. If this is true, needless to say the controversery will likely never make the front page news of the various UFO writers and journals, ALTHOUGH I suspect it will make the front page of Phil Klasses skeptical newsletter. Gee, I wonder if Phil Klass gets any funding from NIDS/Bigelow..? :) The bottom line boils down to that JC may have (rightly or wrongly) been doing what a number of other people and or organizations have done in the UFO community, i.e. provide reports or files to other enitys based upon money going from A to B..for whatever the reason, either cash flow problems, help with projects, research grants or whatever. People have said to me in the past that ufology has "struggled along" then Robert Bigelow shows up and funds alot of projects and research and with that money we apparently have far greater hope (they claim) that the secret of the century will be solved. <snip> >If all identifying info was censored as Mr Carpenter states, >then we are dealing with a completely different issue (although >the issue of a licensed social worker sharing _any_ info still >remains). I don't think "evil ex whatever syndrome" is at work. Supposedly the 5 (it may have been 7) abductee's got their files back from Bigelow totally uncensored. Likewise supposedly one of Budd Hopkins abductee files ended up at NIDS..probably some of the case files that Budd sent JC. I have noticed or perhaps I missed it that Budd has never outright denied sending JC copies of his files. On the other hand if Budd didn't send copies of his files to JC, then how did NIDS end up with one of Budd's files? Who knows, if JC had a dog and the wife got the dog in the divorce settlement, maybe it was the evil exdogs doing.... :) Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Brigham From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 03:03:37 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 20:09:25 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Brigham >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:54:00 -0500 >From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> >Subject: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> It was pointed out that when I stated >So this whole thing about private information being >compromised, >we now find out, is based on allegations made by John >Carpenter's ex-wife that came out as a result of an ugly >divorce. it might have seemed as if I was implying that the only source confirming the transfer of the info was J.Carpenter's ex-wife. What I mean (and I thought was at least made clear later in my post) was that I was questioning who could confirm that the info was transferred _without_ all identifying info being censored. Only Mr. Carpenter's ex-wife, or has someone else seen these files and can confirm they were all sent without proper deletion of names, etc? Still, the following was/is my point. >If all identifying info was censored as Mr Carpenter states, >then we are dealing with a completely different issue (although >the issue of a licensed social worker sharing _any_ info still >remains).
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 08:51:27 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 20:07:36 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Rimmer >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:29:27 -0400 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >These kids suffer from sleep disorders, panic attacks, >separation anxiety, and much more. Now, our culture seems to >have become accustomed to "Alien" images. They are in magazine >ads, TV ads, TV programs, Movies. I get a catalog every month >and it's incredible how much of it is taken up with "alien" >merchandise. Dolls, spaceships, key chains, little games, cake >molds, etc., etc. Does it not occur to you that you've answered the question here? Children have always suffered from sleep disorders, panic attacks, anxiety, and so forth. And they've always fantasised about "monsters", invisible friends and the like. But as you say "our culture seems to have become accustomed to alien images." They are everywhere, and are quite unavoidable. Just because a parent doesn't talk to a child about their own abduction experiences it doesn't mean that they can be insulated from the images that are all around them. Kids aren't stupid (mostly!) and they're very quick to pick up on atmosphere, unconscious hints, overheard fragments of conversation. Put these together with a Saturday morning TV diet of aliens, abductions and general fantasy and is it surprising that they create stories of visits by wierd creatures? >How long has it taken for UFO's to make it into any >mainstream Scientific Journals? Has anything concerning UFO's, >of a positive nature, ever made it into one of the >Internationally recognized peer reviewed Journals? But patience, >these things take time. Maybe in ten years or so all of this, >UFO's, Abductions, will be considered part of respectable >Science and will be written up in of the Journals without any >fanfare. Just another article. One can only hope, right? And that'll be a good thing will it? We'll at last be able to tell kids, "It's OK junior, mummy knows whats happening. You're not just having nasty dreams, you _really_are_ being abducted by creatures with supernatural powers, and there's absolutely nothing that daddy or I can do about it". What a relief that'll be! -- John Rimmer Magonia Magazine www.magonia.demon.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Village Refuses to Pay Saucer Power Bill From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 07:03:00 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 20:11:53 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Village Refuses to Pay Saucer Power Bill SOURCE: EFE News Agency (Spain) DATE: July 27, 2000 22:30:45 WARSAW, Jul 27 (EFE)--Villagers of Wylatowo in the Polish province of Kujawy-Pomerania fear that the UFOs which allegedly visited the area a few days ago will cause them to pay an exhorbitant electric bill. Farmers are convinced that the perfect circles discovered in a wheat field adjoining the town are the marks left by ten UFOs which fed their engines on power drawn from the high-tension wires which pass by the town. Polish television stations showed images of perfectly symmetrical circles within which wheat stalks are perfectly flattened in bunches spread out in a clockwise manner. Many visitors to the site state that the creation of such circles by humans would have required a lot of time, very modern tools, and logistics which would have been impossible to hide from the region's inhabitants. Employees of the Torun Astronomical Observatory are far less romantic: they claim that the circles were left behind by helicopters which landed in the fields. Elzbierta Sucholas, owner of the field in question, is disgusted by the event, given that thousands of people are visiting her property to see the strange circles and "naturally, the flattened all of the wheat that the Cosmic Visitors didn't flatten." The press has stated that barely a month ago similar circles were discovered in the locale of Kielanowka, near the city of Rzeszow--on the opposite end of Poland. A total of four crop circles were found at Kielanowka, one of them having a diameter of seven meters, while the three remaining ones were smaller. Researchers of the mysterious circles state that they could have theoretically been created by powerful whirlwinds, but no reports of mini-tornados in the affected regions were ever made. SOURCE: http://noticias.guby.com/?15104 Translation (c) 2000. Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU) Special Thanks to Gloria Coluchi.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: Anatomy Of A UFO Hoax - Friedman From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 12:46:47 -0300 Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 20:16:54 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Anatomy Of A UFO Hoax - Friedman >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 01:22:52 -0400 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> >Subject: Re: Anatomy Of A UFO Hoax >To: 'UFO Updates' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:36:58 -0500 >>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@nokomis.com> >>Subject: Anatomy Of A UFO Hoax >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>I encourage all of you to read the section on my webpage titled >>"Anatomy of a UFO Hoax". It is a rather lengthy section, but I >>think it is important that those of you who are true researchers >>know about this man. His name is Dennis Bossack, and he has a >>radio talk show out of Westerly, Rhode Island. >>http://www.jilain.com/hoax.htm >Well, isn't this interesting. >I just read your entire account of the alleged Bossack hoax, and >was surprised that it was an ongoing thing up until just a week >ago. >Back in early June I started to make a posting in the "Question >for Mr. Friedman" thread that recounted something that I now see >you would have been very interested in. Too bad I didn't get it >out the door in time (or at all). >I'm also very interested in hearing what Mr. Friedman's thoughts >are about Bossack and his upcoming appearance on Bossack's show. >At any rate, the following is an edited version of what I was >originally going to send (edited to remove some out-dated and >extraneous comments). >The subject was going to be: > >"Zeta Reticuli / UFO Lab / Etc (was: Question for Mr. Friedman)" >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 02:39:41 +0200 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de> >>Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Well said, Stan. >>I wonder if you could satisfy my curiosity? Didn't the New Age >>start in Zeta Reticuli? Or was that the Pleiades? Were Betty and >>Barney Hill early New Agers? Was Madame Blavatsky an alien? Just >>joking, Stan. >Speaking of Zeta Reticuli 2 and Mr. Friedman, a week and a half >ago, totally by chance (or perhaps it wasn't "chance"? hmmm...) >(just kiddin') (random note from 7-27-00: as I read over that, >the CD I'm listening to played a clip of Betty Hill. Weird...), >while at a McDonalds in Richmond, RI, me and my friends turned >around to see in the stripmall behind us a little shop called >"UFO Lab". At first I thought it was perhaps a photographer with >a penchant for UFOs and ETs & such, but I was wrong. >The place turned out to be a very well run, very neat and >organized, UFO/ET store and museum (yep, a really cool little >museum was in the back of the place) run by a very nice couple, >Dennis and Ann Bossack, who claim to be friends of Mr. >Friedman's. <snip> >[7-27-00 : it saddens me a bit that these people may have been >intentionally trying to bilk the public. When I left the store >that day, I was under the impression that I had just met two >very nice and interesting people ... albeit almost thoroughly >out of the minds. >I mean, there's no reason why you can't be crazy *and* nice. >Just look at me, for example... ] A little history.... I had met Bobbie Felder in Albuquerque and also Ann Lafeir who became a good customer selling many of my books, CD ROMs, videos, papers etcat her UFO Lab there... I introduced Dennis, who had been in touch with Bobbie, to Ann. They eventually were married and moved to Rhode Island. Ann's father was based at Roswell AAF in 1947 the year Ann was born in Roswell. They do sell my stuff at UFO Lab. I have made an appearance on Dennis's radio show. I am scheduled to appear at the first anniversary of the Lab for book signings, on Nov.24-26,2000. Dennis himself has pointed out that I have listed his claims as, at best, in my gray basket. They are very nice people. One will not see any endorsement by me of Dennis' claims at the Lab or anywhere else. I have frequently appeared at the same TV or radio show or University debate with Phil Klass. Is that supposed to mean I agree with his claims? I was the first to publish about Marjorie Fish's star models based on the Betty Hill Star map and instigated the ASTRONOMY Magazine article in turn followed by its "The Zeta Reticuli Incident". Some copies of the 32 page full color booklet are still available for $5. from UFORI, POB 958, Houlton, ME 04730-0958 including postage. The booklet with my picture holding a picture of a sculptureof an alien done from drawings done by an artist sitting next to Barney as Barney under hypnosis described the aliens is my 32page "Four Scientific Papers". ($4. from UFORI.). Nowhere have I suggested anything about 900 year old Zeta Reticulans.The star map work has stood up very well to false arguments made by Carl Sagan, Jacques Vallee,etc as noted in Terence Dickinson's excellent 1980 "The Zeta Reticuli Update". I perhaps should add that I spent time with both Betty and Barney, with author John Fuller, on the phone with Dr. Simon and in the Archives at Boston U with Fuller's papers. I have also spent time with Marjorie Fish and discussed her outstanding work with many people including Dr. David Saunders, Dr. George Mitchell, Dr. Allen Hynek, etc. It has stood the test of time. Stan Friedman Search for other documents from or mentioning: ron.cecchini |
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: UFO TV Documentaries? - Friedman From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:15:05 -0300 Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 20:43:36 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: UFO TV Documentaries? - Friedman >Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 21:36:13 -0400 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> >Subject: Re: UFO TV Documentaries? >To: 'UFO Updates' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:34:40 -0300 >>Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:55:16 -0400 >>Subject: UpDate: Re: UFO TV Documentaries? - Friedman >>>I am currently working on my UFO web site, and I am planning >>>on having a section devoted to respectable documentaries tha >>>have been produced on UFOs. >>'UFOS ARE REAL', was produced by Group 1 in 1979. It was shown >>on TV on a number of occasions. It is 93 minutes long and >>includes interviews with Dr. Bruce Maccabee, Dr. James Harder, >>Dr. Richard Haines, Dr. George Mitchell (OSU astronomer), >>Betty Hill, Travis Walton, Marjorie Fish, Jesse Marcel Sr., >>Ted Phillips, Colonel Larry Coyne, Colonel Wendel Stevens, and >>myself. >This past weekend, working off of a tip form a friend, I scored >a major find at a well-known New England chain of stores that >sells stuff really cheap & walked out of the place with 18 UFO >videos all for $2-$3 each. >Amongst them were 2 different videos called "UFOs Are Real". >I'll see if one of them is the one you refer to. >But I also found your "Flying Saucers Are Real", parts 1 & 2. I >haven't watch them yet, but do you consider those to be a sort >of definitive statement of yours? >>It also includes rare footage of an electromagnetic submarine >>in operation and a nuclear rocket in operation (not together). >>Unfortunately, it also includes a 2 minute segment on Billy >>Meier which I tried unsuccessfully to exclude and is the only >>case discussed which I did _not_ stand behind. >Part 2 of your "Flying Saucers Are Real" seems to indicate that >you fully believe the Hill's story (other interviews I've seen >with you also indicate this), and the blurb promises the viewer >that we'll find out where the aliens really come from -- so, >presumably there's talk about Betty's star chart and so forth. >My question for you is why do you believe the Hills, and Betty's >talk of star maps and stuff, but give no credence to Meier? Ron Cecchini: There has been an enormous amount of effort put in to the Hill Case. I met with Betty and Barney and John Fuller and Marjorie Fish and spoke with Dr. Simon. I reviewed Marjorie's work with Terence Dickinson then editor of ASTRONOMY and with Dr. George Mitchell an astronomer at OSU as well as with Allen Hynek. It stands up very well, despite false attacks by the likes of Sagan, Vallee and many others who misrepresented what MF did. In contrast, every time I checked on the claims of Wendelle Stevens re. Billy Meir they didn't stand up. There is a segment on it at the end of 'UFOS ARE Real' which I tried as tech advsior to exclude. It is the one case in the 93 minute video that I didn't stand behind. Many others have raised very serious doubts about Billy. 'Flying Saucers Are Real' was made on the cheap and it is not as visually satisfying to me as 'UFOs Are Real'. It doesn't cover everything. I have had a very good response though I have heard bad things about some one-volume condensation done without my permission. Stan Friedman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: Voodoo Science - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:05:42 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 20:45:16 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Voodoo Science - Maccabee >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 11:33:45 -0700 >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com> >Subject: Re: Voodoo Science >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 23:18:39 -0400 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Voodoo Science >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Send this to you friends... and others! >>New York Academy of Voodoo Sciences? >>by >>Bruce Maccabee >>July, 2000 Jim wrote: >Unfortunately, this kind of writeup is all too common within >"science" or "scholarship." Someone writes a total distortion >about some event or case which mainstream science, if they hear >about it, considers "far out." Then he can expect to receive >kudos from his colleagues, and enhance his reputation as a >hard-nosed skeptical scientist. And his colleagues drop any >skeptical attitude when it comes to his article or book, because >they are happy to assume that his conclusions are correct. Yes, indeed. Thanks for the comment.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: Voodoo Science - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:05:47 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 20:46:56 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Voodoo Science - Maccabee >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:38:32 -0400 (EDT) >From: Tom Carey <TCarey1947@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Voodoo Science >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 23:18:39 -0400 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Voodoo Science >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>New York Academy of Voodoo Sciences? >>by >>Bruce Maccabee >>July, 2000 >To Bruce and List: >The only "Voodoo Science" I saw in the article which appeared in >The Sciences magazine - published under the imprimatur of the NY >Academy of Sciences - was that practiced by Prof. Park. He >apparently relied heavily on the 1997 book by Benson Saler, >Charles B. Moore and another anthropologist whose name I can't >remember, titled: UFO Crash At Roswell: Genesis Of A Modern >Myth, which swallowed the Mogul Hypothesis hook, line and sinker >without so much as a blink. Real "scientific" there. >I reviewed the book for CUFOS' International UFO Report a few >years ago, and my rebuttal to Prof. Park has been accepted for >publication by The Sciences and will appear in their Sept./Oct. >issue. Hope your rebuttal to PRof. Park actually sees the light of day in 'Sciences'.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:06:40 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 20:54:16 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Bourdais >Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 22:27:55 -0400 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >Subject: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com> >>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:47:35 -0400 (EDT) >>Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:17:33 -0400 (EDT) >>>From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com> >>>Subject: Re: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That... - Bourdais >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:45:24 -0400 >>>>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >>>>Subject: Corso, SDI, MJ-12 And All That SOM1-01, Kirtland and Richard Doty Jan Aldrich has admitted, in his message of 11 July 2000, and previously in his message of 2 February 1999, that the" SOM1-01" document came from Kirtland AFB. This was proved, if I understand well, when Dr Wood discovered the "control page" on the first frame of the roll received by Don Berliner, which had been initially left out because of its poor quality. On it, were initials of people who have been identified as officers at Kirtland. So, the question again is: who wrote this document, and for what purpose? This question is valid, wether it is authentic, or entirely bogus, or a mix of true and false statements. The origin of SOM1-01 is not a little detail, after all these years of heated debate over the MJ-12 documents, beginning in 1987 with the" Briefing Document for President Eisenhower" (EBD) and the possible role of AFOSI at Kirtland as a source of many of these documents. To some, the forgerer of EBD had to be Master Sergeant Richard Doty, at the time special agent at AFOSI and known to have lied many times, but other researchers (for instance Barry Greenwood) accused William Moore himself. Similarly, it may be hinted now that Doty could be the author of the SOM1-01 document. IMO, these hypotheses disregard a number of informations gathered from various sources along the years. Let's try to recall briefly some of them, at the risk of boring many members of this list. If I make mistakes, please correct me! In 1987, Linda Howe revealed that Doty had showed her a similar document, pulled from a drawer of his boss' desk at Kirtland, in April 1983. That's more than one year before Shandera received the EBD by mail, in December 1984. Well, at least Bill Moore was not the hoaxer of that one! In his confession of 1989 at the Mufon Symposium, Moore accused Doty of the hoax, pointing out that he had informed Doty a few months before that the Aztec crash, which is cited in the document, was a hoax. So, explained Moore, Doty had to be the one who put it in the document. According to Moore, it was a trap to discredit Linda Howe and her film project on ufos. On the other hand he does not accuse Doty of having forged the EBD. Could Doty be the sole author of the EBD? Some people think so, for instance Pierre Lagrange in France, who told me that Doty had been punished for that. But Jerome Clark assured me that this was not the case: was sanctioned several years later for misconduct in Germany, not for his actions at Kirtland. Can we be satisfied with this situation and close the discussion here? Of course not. The designation of Doty as the sole culprit of the MJ-12 documents (now more than 2,000 pages!) would be a pure" scapegoat" operation. The question of who made all these documents, especially the SOM1-01 now known to come from Kirtland, remains entirely open. In fact, Bill Moore revealed himself that he had more contacts than Doty in the intelligence establishment. In his" confession" of 1989, he said: "In early September, 1980, I was approached by a well placed individual in the intelligence community who claimed to be directly connected to a high level government project dealing with ufos. This individual, who subsequently came to be known as" The Falcon" , told me that he spoke for a small group of similar individuals who were uncomfortable with the government's continuing cover-up." Moore never gave the real name of Falcon. Later, when Doty became his permanent contact, they decided together to pretend that Doty was Falcon, in order to protect the real Falcon. Doty said that to Linda Howe in 1983, and it has been repeated many times since. In addition to that, Moore admitted having had other contacts, among whom highly placed people in Washington. Maybe Falcon was there? He did not day. He did not say either if he knew the chief of Doty, but according to some sources, he was captain Robert Collins, code named "Condor" by Moore. Condor and Falcon were the two masked agents, in the TV show 'UFO Cover Up? Live!', broadcast over two hours, nationwide, in October 1988. And Moore had participated directly in the preparation of the show. According to Robert Hastings, in the MUFON Journal of October 1989, the identification of Collins as Condor was confirmed by "a ranking member of the production team" (on the other hand, he repeated the false information of Falcon being Doty). According to the conventional wisdom, this TV show was lousy, and it ridiculed the subject. Yes, it did ridicule the subject, with the strawberry ice cream story, but when seen without prejudice, it appears as a very well prepared show, with a lot of important guests. And it made very big revelations: there was a bomb under the ice cream! One of the participants was Paul Shartle, who clearly stated that he had seen, when he was responsible for the Air Force film archives at Norton AFB, the film of the first encounter with aliens at Holloman AFB! It was the film which had been promised to Emenegger (also on stage) in 1973 and to Linda Howe in 1983. BTW, Doty was not the only person Linda Howe met at that time for her film project. Here again, we have to consider a more complex hypothesis, the one of controlled, gradual release of information, with always a foot on the brakes to avoid excess speed. Which means we never know for sure if anything is true or false. Quite frustating! Both film projects were "postponed", and we don't really know if they were just" traps" or real projects. Who would have wanted to trap Emenegger in 1973, when nobody knew anything about crashes, contacts and the like? The sad story of engineer Paul Bennewitz also brings us some interesting informations on alleged personnel involved in these operations. To begin with, we know that, when he reported to Kirtland that he had recorded strange radio signals around Manzano, which he attributed to ufos, he was received by several officers, on 10 November 1980, according to Bruce Baccabee, in his report on the UFO landings near Kirtland (Fufor, 1985): "The meeting included a Brigadier General, several Colonels, a Major, an instrumentation specialist, and Dr Lehman, the Director of the Air Force Weapons Laboratory at Kirtland AFB. This sounds like a rather" powerfull" group to discuss a subject as officially uninteresting to the USAF/AFOSI as UFO reports." Now, about the subsequent harrasment of Bennewitz by AFOSI, we learn from researcher Jim McCampbell, who did a serious investigation of the case, more information given to him by Bennewitz about his contacts at Kirtland. He dealt not only with Major Ernest Edwards, of Central Security Control at the Manzano Weapons Storage Area (who was the Major at the meeting, and who reproted to AFOSI the ufo landing at Coyotte Canyon, near Manzano), but he also mentioned a Colonel Carpenter, as being the people who fed him" information" on Dulce! That's in the" Summary of Notes" taken by McCampbell, published by Thomas Adams in his bulletin Stigmata, and by William Steinman in" UFO Crash at Aztec" . So, Master Sergeant Doty (who called himself a "front man"), seems to have been 'helped' by quite a few people there! Another interesting question is: who could explain how it is possible that the same Robert Collins, alias Condor, former Air Force intelligence officer and chief of Doty at AFOSI, has now his web site, filled with a lot of sensational" informations" on all this" Aviary" , on secret operations and secret installations at Los Alamos, Wright Patterson, etc? There would be many more questions to raise here, but it would be much too long! Gildas Bourdais
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Mulvey From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:48:41 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 20:57:48 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Mulvey >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 14:16:22 -0400 (EDT) >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary >To: updates@sympatico.ca Hi Jim, >Actually the proper word is "Grippled!" But thank you for at >least recognizing it for what it is. Some folks around these >here parts think it is something else... stupid... insincere... d>amaging... and etc. Far from it. Oh.<g> I remember it as Gripple. I haven't been back here long enough to know the situation[s] that you're referring to, but I do know that sometimes good intentions aren't enough. Even those with good intentions get kicked in the *ss ;) >I like to twist the truth around so people can face it squarely >in their kissers. Sometimes seeing it from the satirical point >of view helps the understanding glands work better. Satire is a tricky thing. It often flops on it's face when applied to those situations where emotions are invested. Otherwise, it can be good clean fun.<g> >I understand you and your intentions quite clearly. But look, >since this crappola began, finger pointing has rotated around >faster than one of those Astronaut testing thingies, you know, >the ones what make the lips of the astronaut pull >back from the >gravity drenching? >It almost looks terribly funny. But in reality Jim, it's not funny. It's only terrible. <snip> >Good Lord, Ann. This is ridiculous. That's a rather odd choice of words given the gravity and ramifications of this whole mess. >There is no doubt over the fact that wrong has been done to >some folks. But cheeses, who the hell gave _anyone_ the right >to point, criticize and literally attempt to destroy the >players here? And especially as the facts in this case are >really _not_ known. Here's a fact: Carpenter sold 140 abductee files over three years ago. Here's another fact: 120 or more of those families still don't know. Since I'm not aware of your efforts to help these families get _their truth_ I'm going to have to remain unimpressed with what appears to be an excerpt from Miss Manners suggested behaviors during situations of outrage. <snip> >I think the time for finger pointing has ceased. The time is >now for the players, the holders of the information to do what >is right. And spreading this list around is, in my personal >opinion, silly. The time has always been for the players holding the information to do the right thing. Note that hasn't happened. If you carefully read what was being suggested, you wouldn't be trivializing that suggestion as 'spreading the list around'. <snip> >What I have witnessed is not proper legal procedure. Rather, I >am witnessing a lynch mob. And frankly, it does not sit well on >my digestion. Since when is this list bound by proper legal procedure? I'm sorry that your digestion has been upset by what you view as a 'lynch mob', but as an abductee, I'm a bit stunned that your digestion hasn't been more negatively affected by the treatement of those 120 families. Those of us who have taken the time to express opinions [and shockingly get pissed off when lied too - horror!!] are doing so because we care about the abductee community. I really don't understand where you're coming from. The Jim Mortellaro that I remember from a couple of years ago, would be in the thick of it pushing to get those families notified, rather than sitting back in judgment of those who are rightfully outraged that these people remain ignorant. That's the guy I wrote to. I'm not sure who you are.<g> <snip> >I still love you. Even now?. ;) Ann
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Mulvey From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:48:47 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 20:59:24 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Mulvey >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:54:00 -0500 >From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> >Subject: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Hi Tim, >So this whole thing about private information being compromised, >we now find out, is based on allegations made by John >Carpenter's ex-wife that came out as a result of an ugly divorce. That's not what this whole thing is about. <snip> >it would have been nice if the self-appointed champions of >the cause had the gall to notify us of this fact, so we could take it for what it's worth and chose to not be involved in >such crap if we so decided. But that's not a fact. <snip> >If all identifying info was censored as Mr Carpenter states, >then we are dealing with a completely different issue (although >the issue of a licensed social worker sharing _any_ info still >remains). I went back into the archives yesterday to determine where the 'most of the files were sold unsanitized' bit originated. That came initially out of Gary Hart's original post to this list. I didn't see where that particular reference is a proven fact or not. I'd like to know from Gary Hart if that part has been substantiated. _Regardless_ we are still, as you point out, talking about a licensed social worker who sold abductee files. That is no trivial matter. >If this turns out to merely be a he said/she said and a sad >attempt by some of those involved to draw attention, well I wish >we could have been spared the waste of bandwidth and oxygen. If I thought that's what this was all about, I'd be long gone. The facts remain that these files were sold three years ago and that these families still do not know. Hammering on those who hold this list [especially Carpenter himself] to notify those families is hardly any waste of bandwidth and oxygen imo. It's the right thing to do. Tim, what has happened here may very well end abduction research. Whether you believe abductees are delusional or reporting reality doesn't matter. Something is happening and this research needs to continue. Experiencers need to feel they can trust the researchers in this community. That this trust was broken and that these families are still swinging in the wind of ignorance three years later is wrong. >Ufology sure is consistent in it's bull at least! <as he get's >his itchy delete key finger ready to start working on this >thread Ufology is definitely consistent with it's bull.<g> However, at this particular moment, a very human issue is hanging inbetween the facts and the BS and anybody that gives a rat's pattooee about this field needs to get off their duff and tell Carpenter to notify those families - including the majority of the researchers who's silence on this one issue is curious to me. Please think about that and try to move your finger off the delete key. I know that's asking a lot... my finger is in spasm.<g> Ann a licensed social worker,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Salvaille From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:29:48 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 21:04:46 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Salvaille >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:49:23 -0400 (EDT) >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:16:03 -0700 >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 00:20:18 -0500 >>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Hello Jim and List, <snip> >Serge, I've been reading all your posts. I have always found you >to be respectful and sensible. Unlike me. Anyway, I must ask >these questions of you. Unless this is irony, you have it all the wrong way <g>. <snip> >If the parents cannot determine the truth of the child's >perceptions, then seeking the advice of a professional is >probably justified. But who? A psychiatrist or his ilk? Likely >as not. Physicians specializing in childhood illnesses? The >problem which abductee parents (or parents who suspect abduction >of the child) face is that there is no doubt about the fact that >traditional medics will almost never support the hypothesis of >abduction. On the chance that this has occurred, it will never >be brought to surface by traditional medics. And worse, the >parent and/or child will be marked for life with the scarlet "C" >on their farheads. ("C" for Crazy). >So they seek the advice of the professional researcher. There >are good people out there who are more than your (and sometimes >my) definition of researcher, and who can ferret out the truth >or come close. Perhaps even merely eliminate the theory of >abduction. >Most researchers with whom I have had some exposure will first >attempt to _rule out_ the abduction scenario. Then they will >refer the child to traditional medics. <snip> Children psychology is a very complex and sensitive subject. I just wanted to point out that, in today's culture, children become precociously in contact with the ET notion, which is not to simplify the matter. I guess it all boils down to the "researcher". Every time I read on the subject of abduction and I see a poster put his destiny in the hands of some sanctified researcher, I start biting my nails in despair. My worst nail-biting experience occured a couple of years ago when I saw Bud Hopkins interview a 3-4 year old child in front of his devastated young parents. Too bad I couldn't reach into the TV set to kick Hopkins' ass. 1. A researcher without a degree in medical therapy has no freaking right to play with people's mind. His _only_ concern should be to put the people in touch with a professional. 2. The researcher's prime duty is to establish a rooster of professional therapists who can and will deal with abduction subjects. 3. If the researcher fails to do that, he should resign or associate himself with another researcher who can help people out. 4. Any researcher who dares to hypnotize a subject by himself is an incompetent fool. He should have his car painted in fluorescent red. 5. When it comes to children, multiply that by ten and roll him in tar and chicken feathers. <snip> >There are so many young children out there who have had >experiences for which there is no explanation. I happen to be >one of those. Many abductees, after growing up, seek out >psychiatrists. I did before I reached the age of 20. On my own. >I had some very strange phobias for a young man and needed to >know why. By 1990, several psychiatrists told me that I was sane >by any definition one applied to the word. <snip> And you believed them? ;) <snip> >I wonder if that diagnosis would have changed, I had told them >that I perceived that I was abducted by aliens. <snip> If I recall right, Jim, the Hills went to see a psychiatrist who helped them out. Of course, the Hill didn't not come out to the guy and say: "We have been abducted by aliens". Maybe it would be time to make a survey among therapists. This is another essential that abduction researchers have avoided. >See what I mean? In the case of parents and their children, the >diagnosis would expand from children to parents. Which is why I >disagree with Dennis Stacey's comment about such phenom not >being in the medical literature. People just don't want that >kind of grief and finger pointing. And I do not blame them one >dot. Parents just don't want to go through that embarrassment. Your perception of the abduction phenomena is based on what trickles down from abduction researchers and prima donnas: this is the normal course of human activities. It is thus up to the leaders of the field to fill some gaps, change things around. It is their responsibility. We should not be talking only about ethical positions: let it be reminded that we are talking of a field where the victims suffer trauma. This should go a long way. Why not start discussing the real issues? What real issues? Be my guest. From what I have seen on the List on the frenzy to burn one John Carpenter to the stake, there is mucho energy in the community to address some basics in problem solving. Regards, Serge
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 28 UpDate: Re: Venezuelan Spectacular Sighting? - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:00:24 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 21:07:25 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Venezuelan Spectacular Sighting? - Hatch >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 20:55:49 -0400 (EDT) >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Venezuelan Spectacular Sighting? >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >>Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 01:15:15 -0700 >>Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 10:33:37 -0400 >>Subject: UpDate: Re: Venezuelan Spectacular Sighting? - Hatch >>An "inverted cone" is one with the... >>a) Pointed end up, like an indian teepee [ ] >>b) Pointed end down, like an old fashioned ice cream cone. [ ] >>c) Pointed end to one side, like an "italian coffee pot " or a >> megaphone [ ] >Larry, Ron, George: >Yup! Ya got me there. H'mm. What exactly would an "inverted >cone/fin" look like? Probably the balancing motion got me >thinking. This report needs more informaiton, that's for sure. Hi Bob! It goes back to the original witnesses and investigators. They have benefit of the actual sighting, or maybe a drawing. Others, trying to form a mental image are just left dangling. I wasn't kidding about the "italian coffee pot". That's how somebody actually described the shape of a UFO once, details / refs now lost. Can you imagine how many different shapes and forms the artistic inventive Italians might have for a coffee pot? The most I could derive from that description was that the craft had some definite shape, not necessarily geometric either. "Inverted cone" is one of my favorites. It reminds me of the left-handed crescent wrench journeymen mechanics send novices to fetch. It does not inspire confidence in witnesses nor the investigators. Inattention to technical detail is the very hallmark of new-age types and similarly minded folks. Best wishes - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 1 From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@JPS.NET> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 03:09:46 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 11:23:22 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 1 Hello all: As promised (or threatened) I finally got some preliminary results from my correlation of monthly sunspot counts and UFO sightings frequencies. All data below are for the 36 year period from Jan 1940 to Dec 1975 .. a period where there is good data overlap between sunspot.dat and the *U* Database. First the bad news: I had hoped that either UFO sightings would increase during sunspot maxima ( possibly indicating a probable cause ) or else decrease, indicating UFO avoidance of highly damaging solar radiation. In fact, I found no significant difference at all! For the 10,922 filtered *U* sightings in this period, the data breaks downs thus: Totals Low SSpots High SSpots Event count 10,922 6214 4708 Month count 432 239 193 events/month 25.3 26.0 24.4 Thus, events per month are the virtually the same regardless of sunspot activity. Alas. Somewhat more interesting are UFO counts broken down by daylight versus night hours .. Totals Low SSpots High SSpots Event count 7871 * 4489 * 3382 * Daytime 1153 584 569 Night time 3905 1517 2388 Fringe hrs 4152 2388 1764 * Event counts are lower here because sightings with unknown time of day are eliminated. "Fringe" hours are dawn, dusk, and variable depending on latitude. "Daytime" is just that for all but far polar regions. Simple calculations show that "daytime" sightings account for 13.0% of those listed during "slow" sunspot months, but this rises to 16.8% during high sunspot months. Night sightings are 33.8% during slow SS months, but drop to 31.0|% during high SS activity. "Fringe" counts remain stable at 51-52% regardless of sunspots. More to come Best wishes - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 2 [Waves] From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 03:55:27 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 11:27:29 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 2 [Waves] Dear Sirs and Mmes: This is the second installment of my sunspots study; this time how they correspond (or don't) to UFO waves. While tediously tagging *U* Database records during high sunspot months, I found a neat entry for mid April, 1883. Some Astronomers in Marseilles, France observed groups of "disks" pass the Sun's face! This coincides perfectly with a month of high sunspot activity, 82 sunspots on average for the entire month... roughly double the number for March or May 1883. I think I can scratch that listing from the database. Non? [ References on request. One is FSR Volume 4 #1, the other has a French sounding name. ] More tediously (burp): I don't have enough data to call anything a real wave before the onset of the "Great Airship" flaps... there were two of them really. 1) The first GA wave started in California in late 1896 and spread Eastward well into 1897. The entire period was one of Solar quietude... few if any sunspots. Venus and Mars came quite close to Earth during this period. 2) The 2nd GA wave started around May 1909 in Britain, and apparently migrated to New Zealand, virtually at antipodes, by June or July 1909. Again, the Sun was quiet. Mars made a close approach to Earth in this period 3) 1947: Starting in late June and exploding in July, ( 406 *U* records for July alone) this was the first great UFO wave to take place during busy sunspot activity. Astronomers recorded anything from 158 to 188 sunspots going into August. Both Venus and Mars were about as far from Earth as their orbits would permit at that time. 4) The 1950 wave was less impressive, peaking in March 1950 (116 records here). Sunspot activity was again high (109 average count for March,1950). Both Mars and Venus were quite close to Earth, relatively speaking. 5) July was the peak month in 1952, the greatest wave ever recorded in North America. Sunspot activity was low, around 40 spots average. Mars was neither close nor far, Venus was very far away. 6) The French wave of 1954 still holds the record for all times and places: ( 431 listings for October alone ). Mars was at some intermediate distance, but Venus made a very close approach to Earth, as little as 0.267 AU in the midst of this highly localized wave. The "spill over" into neighboring countries, long presumed by French observers at the time, has yet to materialize in my records. With the exception of Italy, this flap seemed to be localized to France .. all of France, and almost only France. Sunspot activity was virtually rock-bottom, an average of 7 sunspots/diem for all of October 1954. 7) Late in 1957 (210 listings for November alone) we have a wave during very high sunspot activity (211) while Venus was very close, and Mars as far away as it usually gets .. over two astronomical units. 8) Another "hump" in my yearly histograms shows for the period July 1965, trailing off into mid 1969. The inner planets are all over their orbits of course, and so are sunspot counts. This hump in the data roughly doubles the counts for the preceding four years, but that's about it. 9) *U* lists 191 events for October of 1973 alone. Mars was quite close, Venus so-so, and sunspot activity was minimal ( 31 avg count ). - - - - So what does all this tell us? Well, clearly UFO waves may occur at peaks and valleys in sunspot activity. It could well be that there is no correlation at all. The earliest waves ( Airships and crews) were during solar minima, but the largely impersonal (unmanned?) saucers of 1947 braved deadly solar rays, assuming they came from space at all. There is one last little thing, highly tenuous I must admit. It would appear that UFO waves which occur during high sunspot activity, also tend to occur when Mars is distant .. on the other side of the Sun. Conversely, waves during solar minima, when space travel is "safer", seem to occur when Mars is closest. There are exceptions to this as seen above, but these tend to be smaller waves like March of 1950. I'm not drawing any conclusions (burp) but invite any comments/questions you might have. Best wishes - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Joe Public Keep UFO Footage Secret! From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:20:19 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 11:32:07 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Joe Public Keep UFO Footage Secret! Hi All, This footage, oh this footage... hang on to your footage dear friends, you've seen the 'circus' do you really want to take part in it? As the Jam once sang " Going Underground". God they keep making these bad chat shows, is this just UK television? And I caught a tench the other day, and I put it back. It was the best tench ever caught in this neck of the woods really it was, but I had a run in with the bloke next to me, he disagreed' he told me it was a freshwater carp, because apparently tench do not reside in this lake? Who said a dog is a mans best friend? I prefer cats myself! Roy..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Re: Is Your Mind Made Up? - Hale From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:37:41 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 11:30:03 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Is Your Mind Made Up? - Hale >>Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:49:58 -0400 >>From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> >>Subject: Is Your Mind Made Up? >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>"Do you have a definite stance regarding the nature behind the >>UFO phenomenon and, if so, what is it?" Hi Ron, My stance is ET is and has been here. I hope that hasn't ruined my chances of writing books in favour of the sceptics! Roy..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! - Lewis From: SMiles Lewis <elfis@austin.rr.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:21:48 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 11:38:10 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! - Lewis >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:17:12 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) >Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 10:52:32 -0500 >Subject: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! >>Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 02:26:03 -0500 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca <snip> >>Nick will conduct the analysis of any samples that are >>submitted. I already have ten abductees (members of AIC) lined >>up to submit samples from their homes. The only thing missing is >>the non-abductee group. <snip> Howdy all, In the midst of all these heated debates on updates and in reading Nick's posts about crashed saucers and Zeta Reticulans... I've been wondering... what is the status of the Dust Bunny Hunt? I sent my sample. Did others send samples? Please give us an update; were there not enuf respondants? Did you not find anything? Have you not had a chance to scope out the dust under the microscope? SMiles Lewis http://www.elfis.net
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Brigham From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 20:16:40 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 11:58:45 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Brigham >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 10:28:03 +0200 >From: Luis R. Gonzlez Manso <lrgm@arrakis.es> >Subject: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Sorry to inform you, but after an electronic exchange last >December when I was trying to prepare an article about this >important Project for our Spanish readers, Dan Wright himself >told me that the Project was closed. For the benefit of UpDates >readers I will quote some of his words: >"After further consideration, I have decided not to convey >further information about the abduction-related project I >managed." >[...] >"In that you revealed to me recently that you do not believe UFOs >are of unearthly origin, I must say that I do not have the time, >the energy or the patience to debate the matter, only to have my >raw data dissected for the purpose of showing me the 'errors' in >my analysis. >I naively stressed that I did not want any debate, just the raw >information to reach my own conclusions, but it seems that I am >too skeptical for him. >The point is that a painstaking work is being kept under wraps, >and nobody (except MUFON members) can access it. MUFON has the >right to benefit of its efforts, but the information should be >freely shared (at least among serious researchers... as I >considered myself :-)) Thanks for this Mr. Manso. Nice to see an example of UFO buffs being so serious about furthering scientific study of the phenomenon. Oddly reminds me of something Budd Hopkins stated recently about sharing his data only with "trusted associates". Ufoology - going nowhere fast! If I wanted to join a social club I'd collect stamps or something. I'm packing my bags to head back to the Invisible College.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Re: Anatomy Of A UFO Hoax - Felder From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@nokomis.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 20:33:03 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:05:12 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Anatomy Of A UFO Hoax - Felder >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 12:46:47 -0300 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >Subject: Re: Anatomy Of A UFO Hoax >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 01:22:52 -0400 >>From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> >>Subject: Re: Anatomy Of A UFO Hoax >>To: 'UFO Updates' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:36:58 -0500 >>>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@nokomis.com> >>>Subject: Anatomy Of A UFO Hoax >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Ron Cecchini wrote: >Well, isn't this interesting. >>I just read your entire account of the alleged Bossack hoax, and >>was surprised that it was an ongoing thing up until just a week >>ago. <snip> >>I'm also very interested in hearing what Mr. Friedman's thoughts >>are about Bossack and his upcoming appearance on Bossack's show. To which Stan Friedman replied: >A little history.... >I had met Bobbie Felder in Albuquerque and also Ann Lafeir who >became a good customer selling many of my books, CD ROMs, >videos, papers etcat her UFO Lab there... I introduced Dennis, >who had been in touch with Bobbie, to Ann. They eventually were >married and moved to Rhode Island. Hi Stan. Hope this finds you and yours doing well. Allow me to interject one little detail that seems to be constantly left out. Since Dennis has accused me, in a public forum, of being a psycho stalker woman from hell, I think this is a very valid point. That point being that the introduction of Dennis and Ann was done in my living room. Stan introduced him to Ann at the same time Stan introduced her to me. I introduced Dennis to Stan. I guess, being the wacko psycho stalker type that Dennis would paint me, that little detail just doesn't fit, so Dennis and Ann conveniently leave that out when talking about how they met. I guess that is because it makes no sense that I would introduce him to another woman..... especially in my own living room..if I was this deranged psycho stalker type he has accused me of being. An accusation, by the way, that he quickly and wisely backed away from when I mentioned the words "defamation of character lawsuit". Anyway... I have to wonder if we are missing the point here. First, let me say that I am not a UFO researcher. I am not a Ufologist. I am not a published author. I don't do lectures and conferences. I am a nurse by profession who now is spending her time raising her adorable little baby boy... shameless pic available for viewing at: http://www.dragoncrest.net/thomas.jpg ... I speak from strictly a "UFO/paranormal topic consumer public perspective". The name of the game, my friends, is "guilt by association". It doesn't matter in the minds of "Average Joe" whether such is right or wrong. It doesn't matter in the minds of "Average Joe" whether such is fair or not. All that matters... and will reflect at the check out stand... is how John Q. Consumer Public views the researchers of UFO/paranormal topics in general. And when dealing with such a volatile subject... one that has been fraught with proven hoax after proven hoax over the years... all it takes is one bad apple to rot the whole bunch. Like it or not, right or wrong, that is how the majority of your basic average "John Q. Consumer Public" thinks. The 'net buzz' is rapidly spreading concerning Mr. Bossack. And the 'buzz' I'm hearing is that John Q. Consumer Public has little regard for the man, his bogus claims, or his radio show. We the consumer public are, frankly, tired of bogus insiders preaching at us to buy their books and support their deceptions. Bossack's credibility is nil with internet UFO consumer circles, and it looks, to us little consumer peons, like he is trying to build his credibility by association with "names" in the field. It will have the opposite effect, I'm afraid. The UFO/paranormal consumer public, thanks to the internet, is becoming more discerning. And we frankly don't understand why any "name personality" would knowingly promote a known hoaxer. One doesn't have to be out there saying they believe in the hoaxer's claims or not... that's irrelevant. Guilt by association... you're on his show, letting him use your name to increase his listenership, and thus letting him increase the sales of his book full of bogus claims. To the non-researcher, average Joe Consumer mentality, that translates into an attitude of not caring whether bogus material is spread around or not...to hell with the truth, let's just move those books and videos off the shelves! Right or wrong, that's the way we little peons who make up John Q. Consumer Public look at it. Let me ask you this... and my apologies to EBK for mentioning it, but it does make the point... Would a 'name personality' that had worked hard to build up a credible reputation be so willing to be interviewed by and lend his/her good name to support the broadcasting efforts of Richard Boylan? Somehow, I doubt it. We the consumer public don't see any difference here... Off my soapbox now. Bobbie Bobbie "Jilain" Felder --->backwoods of Mississippi --->USA --->planet Earth --->somewhere in the cosmos http://www.jilain.com http://www.ufohoax.com http://www.dragoncrest.net ICQ #7524076 ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers And things are not what they seem~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Mulvey From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 21:35:52 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:07:23 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Mulvey >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 03:03:37 -0500 >From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> >Subject: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Hi Tim and anybody who scrolled to the bottom of my post to him.., >Still, the following was/is my point. >>If all identifying info was censored as Mr Carpenter states, >>then we are dealing with a completely different issue (although >>the issue of a licensed social worker sharing _any_ info still >>remains). Gotchya.<g> Also the post from Robert clarified some questions. I just caught a huge mistake on my last post to you. After I typed my name in closing, the phrase "a licensed social worker," appears below it with a comma. I had been typing, copy then pasted, then typed and that phrase fell to the bottom of my post and I didn't see it. I'm_not_ a licensed social worker. LOL Gawd. I'm barely social and the only license I have is the one I showed the nice Canadian man who's classic Jag I backed into last week. I'm a pitbull of a worker though.<g> Sorry for that blooper! Ann
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 21:54:43 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:28:42 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Mortellaro >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:48:41 -0400 >From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 14:16:22 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >Hi Jim, >>Actually the proper word is "Grippled!" But thank you for at >>least recognizing it for what it is. Some folks around these >>here parts think it is something else... stupid... insincere... >damaging... and etc. Far from it. >Oh. <g> I remember it as Gripple. I haven't been back here long >enough to know the situation[s] that you're referring to, but I >do know that sometimes good intentions aren't enough. Even >those with good intentions >get kicked in the *ss ;) >>I like to twist the truth around so people can face it squarely >>in their kissers. Sometimes seeing it from the satirical point >>of view helps the understanding glands work better. >Satire is a tricky thing. It often flops on it's face when >applied to those situations where emotions are invested. >Otherwise, it can be good clean fun.<g> >>I understand you and your intentions quite clearly. But look, >>since this crappola began, finger pointing has rotated around >>faster than one of those Astronaut testing thingies, you know, >>the ones what make the lips of the astronaut pull >back from the >>gravity drenching? >>It almost looks terribly funny. >But in reality Jim, it's not funny. It's only terrible. ><snip> >>Good Lord, Ann. This is ridiculous. >That's a rather odd choice of words given the gravity and >ramifications of this whole mess. >>There is no doubt over the fact that wrong has been done to >>some folks. But cheeses, who the hell gave _anyone_ the right >>to point, criticize and literally attempt to destroy the >>players here? And especially as the facts in this case are >>really _not_ known. >Here's a fact: Carpenter sold 140 abductee files over three >years ago. >Here's another fact: 120 or more of those families still don't >know. >Since I'm not aware of your efforts to help these families get >_their truth_ I'm going to have to remain unimpressed with what >appears to be an excerpt from Miss Manners suggested behaviors >during situations of outrage. ><snip> >>I think the time for finger pointing has ceased. The time is >>now for the players, the holders of the information to do what >>is right. And spreading this list around is, in my personal >>opinion, silly. >The time has always been for the players holding the information >to do the right thing. Note that hasn't happened. If you >carefully read what was being suggested, you wouldn't be >trivializing that suggestion as 'spreading the list around'. ><snip> >>What I have witnessed is not proper legal procedure. Rather, I >>am witnessing a lynch mob. And frankly, it does not sit well on >>my digestion. >Since when is this list bound by proper legal procedure? >I'm sorry that your digestion has been upset by what you view as >a 'lynch mob', but as an abductee, I'm a bit stunned that your >digestion hasn't been more negatively affected by the treatement >of those 120 families. Those of us who have taken the time to >express opinions [and shockingly get pissed off when lied too - >horror!!] are doing so because we care about the abductee >community. >I really don't understand where you're coming from. The Jim >Mortellaro that I remember from a couple of years ago, would be >in the thick of it pushing to get those families notified, >rather than sitting back in judgment of those who are rightfully >outraged that these people remain ignorant. That's the guy I >wrote to. I'm not sure who you are.<g> No Ann. I do not judge you or those who are outraged. I am simply not fond of flaming before all the facts are in. And I am quite certain all the facts are not in as yet. ><snip> >>I still love you. >Even now?. ;) Hi Ann and Everyone, Yup. Even now, and especially now. I very much admire your strength and passion. But I've have seen so many people get reamed up one side and down the other over the years, that it just gets me angry to see it happen over and over again. I read some really damnably damaging flaming here. I see people attempt to hurt others with posts. With words. And I don't like it when that happens. No one here is a judge and/or a jury. You know something? I am satisfied that the information got out. I am happy that some of you have embraced this issue and taken it to another level. I do not deny you the right to say what you've said. You ask where I am coming from? OK. I don't like it when people get flamed. Here or anywhere else. Even when and if they have done wrong. And I do believe that the place where this must be adjudicated is the courts. No one is gonna solve the problem here, or be able to force or otherwise coerce the players to do what they do not want to do or will not do. Now is the time to take it thru the legal system. A good lawyer is needed. Now. Someone should be working on getting an attorney to take this on. The same people I tried to engage when I was associated with IF have been contacted. I've asked that they take the case. So far, I've not gotten a yes or no. I honestly wish to God I had the money. I would pay my attorneys to take this on. But alas, I do not. I have done nothing to help the situation on this list except to intervene when the flames got high ... too high. The only thing I've done is try to get some free legal help. And I take no sides except to press those with the information to do the right thing. I don't deny that people have been hurt. If it had been me, I would be in court by now. Trust me on that. But you know, Ann, many of those 120 don't even know they've been had. I am not certain how that should be done and who should do it. This can be a terribly complex thing with some abductees. I know two who would likely go berserk with this. I know them. I know how they would react. And in their cases exclusively, I would not recommend informing them with some peice of paper or email. I would rather a shrink contact them, or a good researcher with a reputation and a heart. These people are very sensitive about their experiences getting out in the world. Knowing their situation, I don't blame them. How many others would have a similar reaction. One of the folks I know would easily consider ending his/her life over this. We are a sensitive group with very special needs most of the time. Great caution must be taken with many of us. Who here is in a position to take on this terrible responsibility? Who is prepared and informed enough with the cases, individually, to properly broach this subject, and tailor the manner in which it is done to the individual and special needs of these super senitive people? Not me, Ann. And not you. Not John or John or any of the players. I love you for what you've done. I mean that. But this is too tenuous a subject for many abductees to just simply notify them. When Hart made a similar statement, I immediately identified with it and it made sense to me. Sorry if I've disappointed you. But I too have been very disappointed with a few folks here. Present company excluded, I've seen one or two of this list take liberties which are not in their venue or pervue. My comments are directed at them. Not at you. And when I see it, I will not cease in my efforts to expose it. Not unless EBK shows me the door. Not even then. Love and respect, but not for all of yous... Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: RAND Opens Historical Files For Researchers From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 04:20:21 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:29:45 -0400 Subject: UpDate: RAND Opens Historical Files For Researchers Source: RAND Corporation via James Oberg and "alt.paranet.ufo". Stig *** Subject: RAND opens historical files for researchers Date: 28 Jul 2000 17:47:01 GMT From: jamesoberg@aol.com (James Oberg) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: alt.paranet.ufo * JimO: Might be some UFO-related material here, somebody should make a serious effort to look... --- RAND Opens Its Archives for Scholarly Research Background The RAND Corporation marked its 50th anniversary in 1998. A nonprofit institution dedicated to research and analysis in the public interest, RAND takes this occasion not only to look to the future, but also to broaden its effort to document its first half century. RAND's aim is to see this documentation appear as a group of scholarly publications available to all who have an interest in the institution, its work, and the broad variety of subjects in which it has been engaged. Opportunity RAND invites academic historians and analysts in the fields of public policy and science and technology studies to help achieve this objective. While RAND researchers and staff members are invaluable to our history project as sources of data and experience, RAND employees are not participating in this work as authors. A "vanity history" is far from our purpose. Resources Participating scholars are offered access to RAND's newly opened archives, which are rich and diverse in content. RAND has conducted research across a broad spectrum of scientific, methodological and policy issues--concentrating on matters at the leading edge of public concern. We believe historical materials and records of these efforts offer scholars unique insights to past and present developments in many substantive fields. Independence of Participants Participating researchers are, of course, expected to maintain high academic standards. The notes they take, interpretations they make, manuscripts they write and subsequent publications are their own. RAND reads draft materials intended for publication checking only for factual accuracy. Consistent with our purpose of stimulating unbiased research, we offer no stipends or other financial incentives. RAND's quid for the participant's quo is unique access to information and people, within and outside of RAND, and the freedom to exploit these sources to open new areas of scholarly research. Faculty and graduate students participating in the history project thus far have gained research support from private foundations, from government agencies such as the National Science Foundation, and from their home institutions; these scholars have been productive and comfortable with these arrangements. Contacts Faculty and graduate students interested in learning more about the RAND history project are encouraged to contact the RAND Senior Fellow who is coordinating this activity: Gustave H. Shubert RAND 1700 Main Street P.O. Box 2138 Santa Monica, CA 90407-2138 Telephone: (310) 451-6947 Internet: shubert@rand.org
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Re: Essays On Abductions Gain Scholarly Nod - McCoy From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 19:56:52 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:34:29 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Essays On Abductions Gain Scholarly Nod - McCoy Hello, all, Stig >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 07:01:08 +0200 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> >Subject: Essays On Abductions Gain Scholarly Nod >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Source: Lawrence Journal-World, >http://www.ljworld.com/section/frontpage/storypr/18642 >Stig *** >The Front Page >UFO essays gain scholarly nod >By Erwin Seba, Journal-World Reporter Thursday, July 27, 2000 * >For most scholars, abductions by extraterrestrial aliens in >unidentified flying objects are the stuff of Hollywood or >grocery-store tabloids and not worthy of study by university >faculty. That's because you get laughed right out of the Astronomy or Physics department. >That's why University Press of Kansas decided to publish a >scholarly book on the topic. >"The feeling among scholars is this is a disreputable field >because it does not have the participation of people in the >academy," said Michael Briggs, editor-in-chief of Lawrence-based >University Press. >"What the field really needs is the attention from the academy >from a variety of different dimensions to bring the standards >up," Briggs said. "This book is an attempt to jump-start >interest in what is a very, very understudied field right now." Wow, I am impressed, an actual, serious, Book written by Folks with a Degree in Science. This hasn't happened before! I am stupefied, no overcome with the vapors, be still my beating heart! >"UFOs and Abductions" is a collection of essays by scholars and >researchers studying the phenomena of UFO abductions from a >variety of disciplines. There are examinations from the >standpoint of history, psychology and neurology. The book was >edited by David M. Jacobs, an associate professor of history at >Temple University. >"There is no consensus among the people in the book or in the >field or coming from us about what it is," Briggs said. "The >point of the book is to say there is an 'it' and it would be >good for academics to study 'it.'" Only if "it" can be used as say a psychological study on, say delusional minds or mass hysteria I'll bet. Or, too many "Outer Limits " episodes or some such. >A Lawrence astronomer says there may be some value to such a >point of view, but it must be weighed against the risk of giving >credence to pseudoscience. >"To say, 'Well, maybe there is something there worth studying' >can be a dangerous thing," said Bruce Twarog, Kansas University >professor of physics and astronomy. "The phrase 'something >there' can mean anything to general public." >Twarog said studying those who claim to be victims of UFO >abduction would be like studying those who believe the Holocaust >didn't happen. This is one of the most insulting, preposterous (and fearful) statements I have ever read. I am an experiencer, not an abuctee. But ,the meaning is the same. If something out of the realm of "science" occurs, it didn't happen. Holocaust deniers use this sort of augment. We who have experienced something that can't possibly occur say to Twarog: -you are wrong , sir- very, very, wrong. Just like the Holocaust deniers-My late father -in-law was one of the first Tankers into Dachau. Hell on Earth folks, and he saw it, The ovens, the gas chambers, the stacked bodies. All in the name of ah, science ,this time Eugenics. >"It uses their acceptance of a fraudulent claim," he said. >"There's nothing there worth studying." Yep, absolutely nothing, don't look up, don't question, be a good little... oh never mind. >Even an area man who believes in UFOs thinks the book will never >.achieve its goal. >"Scientists will not believe in UFOs until they land on the >White House lawn," said Scott Corder, an Ottawa physician. Although no fan of Dr. Corder, I agree, even then don't count on it . >Corder's medical license was suspended for three years in the >early '90s because of his belief that UFOs bear messengers from >God. >"Humans studying UFOs? That's like an ant studying the X-rays >from the sun," Corder said. >ofthe book, he said, "I think it's going to be another little >bitty flash in the pan." Well, I don't believe all UFO's or Abductors are"Messengers of God." some could be the messengers of well, the "Guy down There'' or at least something negative that doesn't care or have our best interest at heart . >wth 3,500 copies of the book in print, about twice the usual >press run for one of the publisher's political science volumes, >Briggs hopes it will reach an audience beyond academics. >"I like the idea this might be a breakthrough book," he said. >In the three years the book has been in preparation, Briggs used >three times the usual number of reviewers to make sure the book >would not make University Press "look foolish." We'll see. >University Press of Kansas is supported by the six state >universities overseen by the Kansas Board of Regents. University >Press publishes about 60 titles a year. In fiscal year 2000 the >publisher sold 181,354 books and had sales of just more than $2 >million. I hope it works, but I will hold off on buying until I se what it actually is or says. >"UFOs and Abductions" sells for $34.95 and can be ordered from >University Press by calling 864-4155. >Visit the University Press at http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/jacufo.html I have my doubts, but maybe they will have something here. GT McCoy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 23:10:44 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:36:17 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 08:51:27 +0100 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Rimmer >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:29:27 -0400 >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>These kids suffer from sleep disorders, panic attacks, >>separation anxiety, and much more. Now, our culture seems to >>have become accustomed to "Alien" images. They are in magazine >>ads, TV ads, TV programs, Movies. I get a catalog every month >>and it's incredible how much of it is taken up with "alien" >>merchandise. Dolls, spaceships, key chains, little games, cake >>molds, etc., etc. >Does it not occur to you that you've answered the question here? >Children have always suffered from sleep disorders, panic >attacks, anxiety, and so forth. And they've always fantasised >about "monsters", invisible friends and the like. But as you say >"our culture seems to have become accustomed to alien images." >They are everywhere, and are quite unavoidable. >Just because a parent doesn't talk to a child about their own >abduction experiences it doesn't mean that they can be insulated >from the images that are all around them. Kids aren't stupid >(mostly!) and they're very quick to pick up on atmosphere, >unconscious hints, overheard fragments of conversation. Put >these together with a Saturday morning TV diet of aliens, >abductions and general fantasy and is it surprising that they >create stories of visits by wierd creatures? More armchair theorizing. Everybody knows what the unshakeable Mr. Rimmer tells us. What he doesn't know is that abductee parents take it into account when they worry about what their kids report. They may be wrong, of course, but the comfortable Mr. Rimmer can't tell us that with any authority. Unless, of course, he's talked to abductees, and, with the help of a skilled professional, determined that their children are only suffering from normal fears. But probably he hasn't done that. Possibly he doesn't think he has to, since he seems so certain that he knows what's going on. I'll repeat my mantra of a few days ago (slightly changed): I think it would be helpful if abduction skeptics would include actual facts in their critiques. (Facts, that is, about specific abduction cases.) I think it would be helpful if they'd demonstrate that they know something about the subjects they're addressing. (By, just for instance, acknowledging the existence of arguments against the specific points they're making, if those arguments have already surfaced in the abduction debate.) I thnk it would be helpful if they'd pose their objections calmly, without derisive language. (Or, as in this case, without stating the obvious in resounding tones, and then retiring in triumph, as if no one had ever said such a thing before.) I think it would be helpful if they'd simply ask questions when they come across something they don't know about that puzzles or troubles them. (As the complacent Mr. Rimmer could have done, if he had written his post along the following lines: "Children have always suffered from sleep disorders, panic attacks, anxiety, and so forth. I'm curious to know why you don't think that's happening here.") Me, I'm curious to know why the talented Mr. Rimmer seems more interested in scoring points than in genuine debate. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 23:32:34 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:37:39 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:29:48 -0700 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Every time I read on the subject of abduction and I see a poster >put his destiny in the hands of some sanctified researcher, I >start biting my nails in despair. My worst nail-biting >experience occured a couple of years ago when I saw Bud Hopkins >interview a 3-4 year old child in front of his devastated young >parents. Too bad I couldn't reach into the TV set to kick >Hopkins' ass. Serge, I respect the strength of your feelings about this. But how much do you know about the case you saw on that NOVA program? Do you know anything other than what you saw in the short segment they showed you? Do you know what the child might have told his parents before Budd came on the scene? Are you sure you're not judging too quickly? >1. A researcher without a degree in medical therapy has no >freaking right to play with people's mind. His _only_ concern >should be to put the people in touch with a professional. The first assumption here is that researchers play with abductees' minds. Could we establish the truth of that, before referring to it as some kind of certainty? The second assumption is that abductees need professional help. I imagine Serge means help from therapists. Some abduction researchers _are_ therapists, of course. (Some abductees are, for that matter.) Other abduction researchers have files of therapists they can refer troubled abductees to. But exactly what kind of professional help is appropriate for people who come to abduction investigators? From what I've seen, from sitting in on Budd's first interviews with people who come to him, and from reading many of the letters he gets, people approach him because they feel they're having concrete experiences. Not abduction experiences; it's rare for him to see anyone who states outright, "I'm being abducted by aliens." Instead, people claim to remember, as you or I remember what we had for breakfast this morning, lights in their rooms, beings by their beds, periods of missing time, and other concrete experiences they've never been able to explain. They've also never been able to talk about these things with anyone. When they read Budd's books or see him talk on TV, they discover that somebody else knows about these experiences. That's why they want to talk to him. So, Serge, what kind of professional helps people who think they've had these experiences? Surely it's not a psychotherapist -- unless you're assuming that anyone who thinks they've had these experiences is suffering from some sort of psychopathology. And if you're assuming that, would you cite some evidence? You might start by refuting the studies that show it's _not_ true. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 23:40:10 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:39:49 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mortellaro >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 08:51:27 +0100 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Rimmer >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:29:27 -0400 >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>These kids suffer from sleep disorders, panic attacks, >>separation anxiety, and much more. Now, our culture seems to >>have become accustomed to "Alien" images. They are in magazine >>ads, TV ads, TV programs, Movies. I get a catalog every month >>and it's incredible how much of it is taken up with "alien" >>merchandise. Dolls, spaceships, key chains, little games, cake >>molds, etc., etc. >Does it not occur to you that you've answered the question here? >Children have always suffered from sleep disorders, panic >attacks, anxiety, and so forth. And they've always fantasised >about "monsters", invisible friends and the like. But as you say >"our culture seems to have become accustomed to alien images." >They are everywhere, and are quite unavoidable. Dear John, Liz and others interested, and especially you, Mr. Knapp, John, you have not addressed the issue of those "kids" who are now adults and who have had memories from early childhood which could not possibly have originated in any of the venues you listed. Mostly because there were, in the mid forties, no TVs in our households, and our ages (varying from age two and up) precluded reading of this subject... I mean we may have been smart kids but largely did not read at age two and three... or seeing the images of these vehicles, etc., etc. I was drawing those images at age three. These picture, which my mom still has, were drawn by me and dated by mom and or dad. They were of typical saucer shaped objects replete with flashing lights. And this was even before the "Day the Earth Stood Still!" How do you answer that conundrum? And no, I was not the only one. I have the statements of about 40 perceived abductees about my age. How do you account for that? In our time, the present time, I take no exception with your opine. But not in my time, back in the forties. >Just because a parent doesn't talk to a child about their own >abduction experiences it doesn't mean that they can be insulated >from the images that are all around them. Kids aren't stupid >(mostly!) and they're very quick to pick up on atmosphere, >unconscious hints, overheard fragments of conversation. Put >these together with a Saturday morning TV diet of aliens, >abductions and general fantasy and is it surprising that they >create stories of visits by wierd creatures? >>How long has it taken for UFO's to make it into any >>mainstream Scientific Journals? Has anything concerning UFO's, >>of a positive nature, ever made it into one of the >>Internationally recognized peer reviewed Journals? But patience, >>these things take time. Maybe in ten years or so all of this, >>UFO's, Abductions, will be considered part of respectable >>Science and will be written up in of the Journals without any >>fanfare. Just another article. One can only hope, right? >And that'll be a good thing will it? We'll at last be able to >tell kids, "It's OK junior, mummy knows whats happening. You're >not just having nasty dreams, you _really_are_ being abducted by >creatures with supernatural powers, and there's absolutely >nothing that daddy or I can do about it". What a relief that'll >be! A serious and gross exageration, John. You should know better. I've read many of your posts. Why are you so dead set against the possibility? If it were some other people on this list, I would accuse you of being afraid of the possibility. That cannot be you, can it? So wussup wit yous, Yo. Just want to make sure I am in the proper time line. Best, Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Bush 'Statement'On CNN? From: Steve Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 23:58:07 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:42:41 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Bush 'Statement'On CNN? PRG Paradigm Research Group I received an email that George W. Bush had stated on a CNN broadcast today, around 8:15 pm EST, that if elected, he would release important UFO data. Can anyone confirm this? Steve Bassett ***************************************************************** Paradigm Research Group URL: www.paradigmclock.com E-mail: ParadigmRG@aol.com Phone: 301-564-1820 Fax: 301-564-4066 4938 Hampden Lane, #161 Bethesda, Maryland 20814 ***************************************************************** Spread the word about X-PPAC & the politics of disclosure. Contribute online at: www.x-ppac.org or mail to: 4938 Hampden Lane,161 Bethesda, MD 20814 ***************************************************************** "There is almost no limit to what you can accomplish, if you are willing to give away the credit." *****************************************************************
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: NASA Tests Theory That Life Came With Microbes From From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 06:02:50 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:44:02 -0400 Subject: UpDate: NASA Tests Theory That Life Came With Microbes From Source: Cosmiverse Space News http://www.cosmiverse.com/space072504.html Stig *** Microbes in Space July 25, 2000 08:25 CDT Staff Writer Sally Suddock * The theory that microbial life once came to Earth on a meteorite from another planet will be tested Wednesday when a NASA rocket carries into space special microorganisms from research at the University of Maryland Biotechnology Institute (UMBI). "The tiny space pioneers will be riding an apogee, or sub-orbital, flight path similar to the historic 1961 flight of astronaut Alan Sheppard. The passengers this time will be four dime-size cultures, each holding about 100 million cells of the microbes that will be exposed to space vacuum and solar radiation for 10 minutes," said the university Monday. For the first time, scientists with the university's Center of Marine Biotechnology (COMB) and NASA will also study the direct effects on living cells of the sun's extreme ultraviolet, or EUV, radiation that does not penetrate the Earth's atmosphere. "We routinely look for DNA repair systems in extreme microbes called Archaea that might be useful in biotechnology or medical research," says Jocelyne DiRuggiero, the project leader at COMB. "And, in this case, we may also want to know what kind of lesions EUV can cause to the DNA of these microorganisms." Archaea are microbes that typically live in extreme conditions, such as high temperature, pressure, sulfur, methane or radiation. The space-going microbes are known to survive high temperatures and some radiation. Part of a four-year, $400,000 partnership with NASA, the UMBI experiment is "hitchhiking" on the latest launch of the Solar EUV Rocket Telescope and Spectrograph, or SERTS. Since 1997, fast, slender 19-foot sounding rockets carrying SERTS have helped NASA study sun activity and "cross-calibrate" data from the more sophisticated solar instruments aboard their SOHO satellite, says the university. The microbe experiments may expand into orbital missions on a space shuttle. The first microbes to be tested on the SERTS do not yet have a biological name. But their training regimen has been rigorous, according COMB research professor Frank Robb. "We thought this strain was a good candidate. We found it living in the sediments of Potts hot springs in Yellowstone National Park, where it was exposed to steamy plumes, alternating with hot, dry conditions." Back at the COMB laboratories in Baltimore, Renu Nandakumar, post-doctoral researcher, isolated the heat-loving strain and grew it up into cultures. She found that the strain survived gamma rays and a hard, or space-like, vacuum. A second microbe, a radiation resistant bacteria, Deinococcus radiodurans, extensively studied by the Department of Energy, also will be on the launch as a control in the experiment. The COMB researchers helped NASA engineers retrofit the SERTS instruments with microbe sample holders that were later shake tested to simulate the flight. The main NASA mission is to run experiments to study the sun's outmost atmosphere, called the solar corona. * Subscribe to Cosmiverse News Briefs! Just type your email address in the box below and click "Subscribe"! � 1999-2000 Cosmic Voyage 2000. All Rights Reserved. Cosmiverse Privacy Statement and Terms of Service All other copyrights remain property of their respective owners. This site is a Glass Frog Production.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 00:33:54 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:47:25 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mortellaro >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:29:48 -0700 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:49:23 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:16:03 -0700 >>>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca> >>>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 00:20:18 -0500 >>>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>>>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Hello Jim and List, ><snip> >>Serge, I've been reading all your posts. I have always found you >>to be respectful and sensible. Unlike me. Anyway, I must ask >>these questions of you. >Unless this is irony, you have it all the wrong way <g>. I am quite serious. Meant every word. I like the word "satire" because it fits what I sometimes do on this list. But not in this case. <snip> >Children psychology is a very complex and sensitive subject. I >just wanted to point out that, in today's culture, children >become precociously in contact with the ET notion, which is not >to simplify the matter. >I guess it all boils down to the "researcher". >Every time I read on the subject of abduction and I see a poster >put his destiny in the hands of some sanctified researcher, I >start biting my nails in despair. My worst nail-biting >experience occured a couple of years ago when I saw Bud Hopkins >interview a 3-4 year old child in front of his devastated young >parents. Too bad I couldn't reach into the TV set to kick >Hopkins' ass. Well, not having seen this segment, I can sympathise with your reaction. But I quite imagine, knowing Budd, even for the short time I was associated with him, that he was relatively certain of the events surrounding this particular child. Admittedly however, I am (in general) against interviewing children on this subject, unless there are very compelling reasons to do so. >1. A researcher without a degree in medical therapy has no >freaking right to play with people's mind. His _only_ concern >should be to put the people in touch with a professional. Who? John Mack? He is the only psychiatrist I know of who would consider the possibility of abduction. Are there others? I really do not know. >2. The researcher's prime duty is to establish a rooster of >professional therapists who can and will deal with abduction >subjects. Agreed. Did you know that Budd has at least one certified psychologist on his staff? And he is always with the abductee when interviewed. >3. If the researcher fails to do that, he should resign or >associate himself with another researcher who can help people >out. > >4. Any researcher who dares to hypnotize a subject by himself is >an incompetent fool. He should have his car painted in >fluorescent red. I completely agree. >5. When it comes to children, multiply that by ten and roll him >in tar and chicken feathers. Would you consider other foul feathers or must it be from a chicken? Just kidding. ><snip> >>There are so many young children out there who have had >>experiences for which there is no explanation. I happen to be >>one of those. Many abductees, after growing up, seek out >>psychiatrists. I did before I reached the age of 20. On my own. >>I had some very strange phobias for a young man and needed to >>know why. By 1990, several psychiatrists told me that I was sane >>by any definition one applied to the word. ><snip> >And you believed them? ;) Hah, very funny. But yes, I did. I was given a battery of psych tests as if in preperation for the presidency of the USA. Not once but on three seperate occasions. The diagnoses were consistant, except for changes over the years which are expected. I was first checked out at age (about) 20, then later in my thirtees, then again in my forties and finally, reecently, at age 50. I am now 57 and sinking fast. As there were no divergent theories as to my condition, my IQ, my phobias, etc., I expect that the doctors consistant diagnosis regarding my sanity are accurate. Either that or I am a whopping big liar. Hey, I even underwent a serious lie detector test (twice) and the readings were also consistant. I was not lying about my experiences. I really do believe my memories. So they happened or I believe that they happened. ><snip> >>I wonder if that diagnosis would have changed, I had told them >>that I perceived that I was abducted by aliens. ><snip> >If I recall right, Jim, the Hills went to see a psychiatrist who >helped them out. Of course, the Hill didn't not come out to the >guy and say: "We have been abducted by aliens". Actually, Serge, and as I recall, the Hills did not know about their abduction until after they were hypnotised. So they were unable to come out and say those words. >Maybe it would be time to make a survey among therapists. This is >another essential that abduction researchers have avoided. >>See what I mean? In the case of parents and their children, the >>diagnosis would expand from children to parents. Which is why I >>disagree with Dennis Stacey's comment about such phenom not >>being in the medical literature. People just don't want that >>kind of grief and finger pointing. And I do not blame them one >>dot. Parents just don't want to go through that embarrassment. >Your perception of the abduction phenomena is based on what >trickles down from abduction researchers and prima donnas: this >is the normal course of human activities. Perhaps, but not when it comes to me. I am lucky to have had parents who took notes and kept dairerees. They even kept my drawings of the little doctors and their craft, which I imagined to be hospitals in the sky. Nope, not when it comes to my experiences. I know that they either happened and I know that I believe these events happened. From when I was 2. 1945. >It is thus up to the leaders of the field to fill some gaps, >change things around. It is their responsibility. We should not >be talking only about ethical positions: let it be reminded t>hat we are talking of a field where the victims suffer trauma. Perhaps again, however my memories are form me. No hypnosis, no regression, no interviews by researchers except the one I had with Budd. And that was, uh, 1998 I think. >This should go a long way. Why not start discussing the real >issues? What real issues? Be my guest. >From what I have seen on the List on the frenzy to burn one John >Carpenter to the stake, there is mucho energy in the community >to address some basics in problem solving. I do not quite understand what you mean. I don't like it when anyone gets burned on any list. Even when they are balls out wrong. Nothing wrong with proving that someone is either wrong or mistaking or lying. But to carry it on ad nauseum is against my personal pair of dimes. Best regards, Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Re: Anatomy Of A UFO Hoax - Manso From: Luis R. Gonzlez Manso <lrgm@arrakis.es> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 10:19:08 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:53:32 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Anatomy Of A UFO Hoax - Manso >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 12:46:47 -0300 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >Subject: Re: Anatomy Of A UFO Hoax >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Dear Mr. Stanton: You wrote: >The star map work has stood up very well to false >arguments made by Carl Sagan, Jacques Vallee,etc >as noted in Terence Dickinson's >excellent 1980 "The Zeta Reticuli Update". >I perhaps should add that I spent time with both Betty >and Barney, with author John Fuller, on the phone with >Dr. Simon and in the Archives at Boston U with Fuller's papers I have always supposed that Marjorie Fish's map was discarded after Zeta Reticuli was discovered to be a double star, just because she herself was the first to discard all double stars during the making of her map. Would you please comment? I am also interested to know if the tapes of the hypnosis sessions with Dr. Simon had been secured, and who has them nowadays. Do you know? Yours, Luis R. Gonzlez Manso
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Re: Small Follow-Up On Venezuelan Saucer Case From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 07:55:51 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:58:12 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Small Follow-Up On Venezuelan Saucer Case The following was received from Martha Rosenthal of Caracas regarding the apparent "UFO wave" taking place over South America's northern hump: "I've received reports of blackouts in a number of areas of the city and neighboring suburbs. One such blackout occured, in fact, right here in my office, but I paid it no mind until I began to receive information which coincides with the areas in which the sightings have been reported. "In fact, this morning there was a strange interruption in a TV channel's sound system and several more incidents of a related nature. This is a report, nothing more." # # # #
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Chupacabras In Chile From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 07:48:20 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:55:42 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Chupacabras In Chile To all our Readers-- The Chupacabras has continued to appear in Chile in spite of the completely unnatural and snowy winter that has affected the southern hemisphere--antarctic winds and heavy snow have blanketed Buenos Aires and Santiago, reaching as far north as the Atacama Desert, where it hadn't snowed in human memory. Far from being deterred by the onset of cold weather (as it did in Puerto Rico during one of the island's famous cold snaps (60 degrees) in January 1996, the paranormal predator continues to spread panic throughout the countryside. The Chilean events have proven to be more divisive than expected: skeptics are responding more fiercely than ever, believers in a UFO-related origin to the events are willing to do battle with-- sword or pistol, on horse or on foot-- to champion their beliefs, and exponents of the paranormal/interdimensional origin are still holding their own. There is no doubt that something is happening in Chile, but true to the Chupacabras's protean qualities, the entity being reported doesn't resemble the ones seen earlier during the Chilean wave, or much less the ones reported in Puerto Rico or in Mexico five years ago. Scott Corrales Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ SOURCE: La Estrella del Loa (newspaper) DATE: July 14, 2000 ** It had large slanted, yellow eyes, grey fur and stood on all fours. "I lost control at that moment" ** "After seeing the creature, we saw two yellow lights which lit up the entire highway before disappearing," reads part of the report issued by two members of the "Helen Keller" Lions Culb, who ran into an unknown being while driving along the Calama-Chuquicamata route. As announced yesterday, this newspaper obtained as an exclusive the intriguing experience of both local residents, who requested anonymity to avoid unpleasantries. Althouth they originally planned not to remain beyond midnight at the organization's transfer of power ceremony, they headed home at 1:30 a.m. "Upon reaching the Chuqui checkpoint, a Carabinero (state trooper) was inspecting a vehicle and we drove right past him." More or less in the vicintiy of Puerta Cuatro, the driver flashed her high beams at two intensely yellow "lights" a short distance away. "The other car was about half a block from our own. We were discussing God in a Christian framework when I began to slow down, because the lights remained static. I thought it could be a stranded automobile or a bicycle." Nerves got the better of the Ford "K"'s owner, who then sustained a hesitant dialogue with her companion in an effort to explain the figure that stood some two or three feet away from the forward bumper. "Is it the devil?" asked one. "Yes, it would seem so," replied the other, while they observed something resembling a dog, but much larger, lacking ears and covered in extremely long grey hair --particularly around its neck--and having two inmense slanted, yellow eyes. The women and the "thing" exchanged looks for some five to ten seconds, after which the car drove off along the left lane. The "animal" followed their departure with its head--an extremity capable of 180 degree turns. "I felt a terrible panic. I wanted to get out of the car but she [the companion] calmed me down. We saw the two yellow lights again, but this time they lit up the entire road before disappearing. I hit the accelerator and kept up speed until we reached Calama." Now feeling more calm, both women have tried to rationalize their encounter. "It's from somewhere else," states the driver. Her companion, the professor, still thinks it's "the devil", on the other hand. Prior to being made known to this publication, the case was only known by friends and relatives, since no records were left with the Carabineros nor the Police, in spite of the interest shown by the latter organization." # # # # Translation (c) 2000 Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU) Special thanks to Liliana Garcia.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Carpenter From: John Carpenter <StarmanJC@aol.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 11:24:48 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 13:01:39 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Carpenter >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:13:36 -0400 >From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: John Carpenter Responds >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 00:23:09 -0400 (EDT) >>From: John Carpenter <StarmanJC@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: John Carpenter Responds >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >John, >Can you please tell this list if you intend to notify the 120 >families who have remained ignorant for over three years that >you have sold their abduction files? >We all await your response. Dear Ann, I do not have any problem with doing so, other than the fact that over the past 12 years most people have moved and I have not been in contact with them for a very long time. That is not an excuse but just a fact of real life. Many people do not stay at the same address for 12 years. That project did not involve anybody that I've worked with in the past 5 years, so nobody would be a recent contact. John
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! - Cuthbertson From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 10:56:09 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 13:02:58 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! - Cuthbertson >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:21:48 -0700 >From: SMiles Lewis <elfis@austin.rr.com> >Subject: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! >To: UFO UpDates <updates@sympatico.ca> >I've been wondering... what is the status of the Dust Bunny >Hunt? I sent my sample. Did others send samples? >Please give us an update; were there not enuf respondants? Did >you not find anything? Have you not had a chance to scope out >the dust under the microscope? I also sent mine in too, and I'm also curious about results or lack thereof. -Brian C.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 2 [Waves] - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:37:46 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 13:05:20 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 2 [Waves] - Sandow >Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 03:55:27 -0700 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >Subject: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 2 [Waves] >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >6) The French wave of 1954 still holds the record for all times >and places: ( 431 listings for October alone ). Mars was at some >intermediate distance, but Venus made a very close approach to >Earth, as little as 0.267 AU in the midst of this highly >localized wave. The "spill over" into neighboring countries, >long presumed by French observers at the time, has yet to >materialize in my records. With the exception of Italy, this >flap seemed to be localized to France .. all of France, and >almost only France. Sunspot activity was virtually rock-bottom, >an average of 7 sunspots/diem for all of October 1954. Here's a wonderful opportunity for psychosocial analysis -- but please, not from amateurs. Let's hear from someone with professional knowledge of both sociology and French culture. What was it in 1950's France that made people likely to report UFOs? (A question worth asking even if the UFOs turn out to be genuine anomalies.) Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: UFOIN Statement On Cheshire Video From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 15:44:58 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 13:08:57 -0400 Subject: UpDate: UFOIN Statement On Cheshire Video Hi, In light of extensive requests from information and comment about the widely promoted 'Cheshire Video', the UFO Investigators Network has agreed the following statement which is being sent in reply. ___________________ The Cheshire Video: In recent weeks there has been much discussion about what has been hailed as a highly significant piece of video taken in Hartford, Cheshire, UK on 9 July 2000. Press releases by Tim Matthews and Eric Morris of the BUFOSC, a small Cheshire based UFO group, have reported that these daylight images are amongst the best footage ever taken. UFOIN has been carefully investigating the circumstances surrounding this case since before the press releases were sent around the world and been collecting considerable evidence. Whilst we are willing to accept that this case may have been sincerely reported we are not able to endorse the significance of this footage in terms of useful scientific evidence for anything unexplained. In our opinion a fairly typical piece of daylight video of an undefined object has been promoted well beyond its importance. We would not speculate on the motives for this, of course, but would point out that very little hard evidence of investigation or useful case data has been made available and that we have seen nothing as yet that persuades us that the object could not be a balloon. The object appears of only modest size, is below low cloud and moves slowly in a manner not inconsistent with this possibility. It is the opinion expressed to us by over 90% of experienced ufologists who have seen the footage. Other comments include 'it could be anything' and 'not up to much'. Even if the balloon diagnosis ultimately proves incorrect, the footage cannot, in our opinion, justify the label of being important scientific evidence and resembles many other similar pieces taken all over the world - few of which have been given such a degree of spin doctoring. Allegations in some sources about air-band radio messages and an aircraft possibly being scrambled out of the way have not been verified by our investigations with nearby Manchester air traffic control. They informed us that they made no radar tracking, were advised of no sightings by inbound or outbound air crew and had no knowledge of air traffic being moved out of the path of any UFO that day. In the absence of contrary evidence such information seems to suggest that this aspect of the case should not be considered of further interest. UFOIN intends to keep on top of this case and has uncovered many other enlightening details. We suggest that you observe our web site www.ufoin.co.uk in order to see new messages that update our findings. And in the meantime observe a cautious approach to this case beyond considering it as just another piece of unverified evidence. UFOIN (UFO Investigators Network)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Re: Essays On Abductions Gain Scholarly Nod - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:09:38 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 13:53:02 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Essays On Abductions Gain Scholarly Nod - Clark >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 19:56:52 -0700 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com> >Subject: Re: Essays On Abductions Gain Scholarly Nod >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 07:01:08 +0200 >>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> >>Subject: Essays On Abductions Gain Scholarly Nod >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Source: Lawrence Journal-World, >>http://www.ljworld.com/section/frontpage/storypr/18642 >The Front Page >>UFO essays gain scholarly nod >>By Erwin Seba, Journal-World Reporter >Thursday, July 27, 2000 >>For most scholars, abductions by extraterrestrial aliens in >>unidentified flying objects are the stuff of Hollywood or >>grocery-store tabloids and not worthy of study by university >>faculty. >>That's why University Press of Kansas decided to publish a >>scholarly book on the topic. >>"UFOs and Abductions" is a collection of essays by scholars and >>researchers studying the phenomena of UFO abductions from a >>variety of disciplines. There are examinations from the >>standpoint of history, psychology and neurology. The book was >>edited by David M. Jacobs, an associate professor of history at >>Temple University. >>"There is no consensus among the people in the book or in the >>field or coming from us about what it is," Briggs said. "The >>point of the book is to say there is an 'it' and it would be >>good for academics to study 'it.'" >Only if "it" can be used as say a psychological study on, say >delusional minds or mass hysteria I'll bet. Or, too many "Outer >Limits " episodes or some such. As a contributor to this book, I'd like to say that this article, which makes it seem as if the volume were solely about the abduction phenomenon rather than UFOs generally, is misleading. Here, for those who are interested, is the table of contents: Introduction, by David M. Jacobs Ufology and Academia: The UFO Phenomenon as a Scholarly Discipline, by Stuart Appelle Limited Access: Six Natural Scientists and the UFO Phenomenon, by Ron Westrum Science, Law, and War: Alternative Frameworks for the UFO Evidence, by Don C. Donderi UFOs, the Military, and the Early Cold War, by Michael D. Swords The Extraterrestrial Hypothesis in the Early UFO Age, by Jerome Clark UFOs: Lost in the Myths, by Thomas E. Bullard The UFO Abduction Controversy in the United States, by David M. Jacobs Hypnosis and the Investigation of UFO Abduction Accounts, by Budd Hopkins How the Alien Abduction Phenomenon Challenges the Boundaries of Our Reality, by John E. Mack The UFO Experience: A Normal Correlate of Human Brain Function, by Michael A. Persinger Research Directions, by David M. Jacobs >>wth 3,500 copies of the book in print, about twice the usual >>press run for one of the publisher's political science volumes, >>Briggs hopes it will reach an audience beyond academics. >>University Press of Kansas is supported by the six state >>"UFOs and Abductions" sells for $34.95 and can be ordered from >>University Press by calling 864-4155. >>Visit the University Press at >http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/jacufo.html Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 13:26:47 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 13:55:18 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? - Mortellaro >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 20:16:40 -0500 >From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> >Subject: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 10:28:03 +0200 >>From: Luis R. Gonzlez Manso <lrgm@arrakis.es> >>Subject: Re: Anonymity and Sharing? >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Thanks for this Mr. Manso. Nice to see an example of UFO buffs >being so serious about furthering scientific study of the >phenomenon. Oddly reminds me of something Budd Hopkins stated >recently about sharing his data only with "trusted associates". >Ufoology - going nowhere fast! >If I wanted to join a social club I'd collect stamps or >something. I'm packing my bags to head back to the Invisible >College Dear All, It's never a good idea to take a comment out of context. And it's a worse one to comment on it. Which is right up my alley. "Trusted Associates!" Who trusts them and whose associates are they? I do not doubt Budd Hopkins' trustworthiness. I rather doubt any associate's ability to be trustworthy. Me included. Does that make any sense to you? I trust not. Let me clarify. I trust no one. Except people like Hopkins and some few others. While I've only met only a few, there are, on UpDates, a good many dim bulbs. One can cleverly distinguish among them, as to who is trustworthy. It's the one's who are gentlemen, who maintain a level of dignity, who cannot hurt anyone to save their bloody lives, these are the people I can grow to respect and love. Shoot, I'm easy. Just put on decorum and wear it like a mantle. Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 1 - Haley From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 14:17:36 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 18:44:12 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 1 - Haley >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 03:09:46 -0700 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@JPS.NET> >Subject: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 1 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >As promised (or threatened) I finally got some preliminary >results from my correlation of monthly sunspot counts and UFO >sightings frequencies. >All data below are for the 36 year period from Jan 1940 to Dec >1975 .. a period where there is good data overlap between >sunspot.dat and the *U* Database. <snip> Larry, Could you do an analysis of variance and report the numerical statistical significance? That would help to quantify the conclusion that there is _no_ correlation.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Re: Joe Public Keep UFO Footage Secret! - Roberts From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 14:53:11 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 18:45:54 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Joe Public Keep UFO Footage Secret! - Roberts >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:20:19 -0700 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> >Subject: Joe Public Keep UFO Footage Secret! >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >And I caught a tench the other day, and I put it back. It was >the best tench ever caught in this neck of the woods really it >was, but I had a run in with the bloke next to me, he disagreed' >he told me it was a freshwater carp, because apparently tench do >not reside in this lake? So, this bloke then... how did he know tench actually existed? Come to think of it, how did you? I don't want to go on about this contentious video but these facts really do matter. Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Re: UFOIN Statement On Cheshire Video - Lewis From: SMiles Lewis <elfis@austin.rr.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 15:09:38 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 18:46:54 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: UFOIN Statement On Cheshire Video - Lewis >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 13:08:57 -0400 >To: "02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers":; >Subject: UpDate: UFOIN Statement On Cheshire Video >www.ufoin.co.uk Actually, the url is: http://www.ufoin.org.uk/ cheers :-) SMiles Lewis - Elfis Editor E.L.F. INFESTED SPACES Journal of Possible Paradigms PO Box 33509 Austin, TX 78764 http://www.elfis.net Austin MUFON State Section Director Travis & Williamson Counties http://www.elfis.net/austin/mufon mailto:austinmufon@elfis.net
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Re: Spacenapping - Beaver From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 13:41:33 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 18:52:27 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Spacenapping - Beaver >Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:02:27 +0100 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >Subject: Spacenapping [was: Re: Selling Files] >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >In my experience of UK abduction research I have encountered a >number of cases where there is no question that an abduction >like experience was reported by the witness whilst they had not >physically travelled anywhere. Dear Jenny: I have no contention with your arguement at this point. I have removed your examples of these cases for brevity. I have little doubt that they are as you describe them. Below I will leave in your entire personal experience so as not to gut the starting basis of your arguement completely. >I even have had a deeply persuasive first hand experience. My >boyfriend had stayed the weekend, driven off to work on his >motorcycle in freezing weather and I had been concerned for his >safety as he left. Being early I sat back on the settee in front >of the fire worrying about his 30 mile ride. Then I heard and >saw him return, we embraced and I said that I was pleased that >he had turned back. It was as real as any experience I have ever >had. Except that moments later I blinked and he was gone. Indeed >I was sat back on the settee and could appreciate that in the >hot room I must have fallen back to sleep, had a vivid dream >that fulfilled my wishes and believed in it as real. >Now the key here was that I was able to confirm that he never >had come back - but driven on to work safely. This entire vivid >and utterly convincing experience was an hallucination. Yet I am >well aware that if I had had no way to 'quiz' the subject of my >vision (eg if it had been my dead auntie or an alien) I would to >this day not have any way to know how real this experience >literally was. And in real abduction situations that's the >problem witnesses tend to face. >Now taken together the above two sets of data tell me loud and >clear that there is a huge probability that even utterly >convinced witnesses (who could pass a lie detector test - as I >bet I could have done) might be certain they have had a true >experience but that it is at least viable that it was a >visionary (not a physically real) one. Here is where I will jump in and attempt to state, through my and other peoples experiences, where your statement, and final assumptions are completely incorrect and hopelessly bound in outdated, what some feel are "scientific," newtonian logic where that which is physical, possibly solid or at least an energy, gas, etc., that is completely physical, or it's something which is hallucinatory and utterly created within the cerebral cortex. In limiting the possibilities you have considered to either physical or cerebral you have absolutely and completely left out what is far more likely to be the cause of much of it. Here goes: First I will give 4 experiences of my own and then an outline of one neighbor I interviewed within my own lengthy search for the truth about UFOs. 1) Waking up one evening I saw my (then) girlfriend sitting up in bed with her back against the headboard of the bed. She was much closer to me than normal. She looked down and smiled at me a rather evil looking grin. She then dissapeared and was then, instantly, laying in her bed sleeping as normal. 2) The famous Chuck Norris passed me in a Houston, Tx. hotel to check out the buffet while taking a break from his vigorous workout upstairs. We, very briefly got into a conversation about a mutual acquaintance of ours. At one moment it appeared as if he was going to hit me. Though there was no way for me to truly know this, I knew that he wasn't the type of person to just hit someone for now reason. So I made no effort to defend myself or react in any way. Then, instantly, this false reality, "hallucination" as you would term it, dissappeared. He was then standing there normally. 3) Driving down Memorial Drive one night in Houston I see a man, from the waist up, life size with no 3rd dimension of depth, as if he were being projected onto a movie screen, life size, in a trench coat, walking down the middle of a road. I saw this image, which I couldn't see through, as if I were up in the air looking down over his head. This, like the one above one, wasn't an image I saw _within_ my head. It was a phenomena which was being viewed in the _external_ world mixed with all of the other normal phenomena. I saw him _outside_ the car as if he were standing in the middle of my hood of my Pontiac Lemans. After this image, vision, _not_hallucination_, dissapeared I wondered why it had appeared. The middle of my car was on the yellow line I had just seen a vision of. So I slowed down and got over into my lane like most normal drivers drive. Coming out of the, very lengthy, curve I passed his actual physical body, missing him by, possibly, a whole inch. I slowed the car, looked back at him. His physical body was still standing on the yellow line in the middle of the road. I got very frightened and took off. Parapsychologists call this an out of body image/projection of a living person. 4) Backing up in a very quick fashion in my father's black Lincoln Continental Mark IV I began to see, like the above, a vision, outside my head, which appeared as a flat, not see through, no depth, image just above, and at the heigth of my dashboard. The image was of myself in the future being viewed from sitting in the back seat of the same vehicle. In the vision I turn the car and hit a small tree. Not wanting to fulfill this vision I am very careful to wait until I have passed all the trees before cutting the wheel to turn onto the road. Unfortunately I don't see one small tree. Then I fulfill the vision of the future I have just had. I hit this small tree. Now that you have my 4 non-physical and non-hallucinatory, external, phenomena I will add one more piece, an interview, which helps clear up something about how all this fits in with the abduction phenomena, and your fallacies as well. Interviewing my above neighbor at an apartment complex I find that he, and his family, have had a very long history of abductions. He calls them dreams, as you would. He, _absolutely_, believes they are only dreams. Everyone in his family has scoop marks in the lower leg area. Everyone in the same family has the same dreams. As he's going to sleep, in the twilight state, he finds his leg being lifted by the greys and himself being pulled down the hallway; the wind rushing by he can feel in his hair. The difference between he and his brother's dream is that in his dream he finds himself being pulled down the hall. In his brothers dream his brother sees him being pulled down the hall. In other words the brothers dream confirms his completely. Everyone in the family, including the mother have all participated in these "dreams." As I said, they all have the scoop marks and can all recall exactly which nights they all participated in these "dreams." He even relates, most recently, of a fairly close sighting he had while walking into our apartment complex. Though this was, obviously, in the awake state, he considers it all part of the "dream." My father once saw the shadow of a circular craft come over him when he was looking down at a swamp/marsh floor on an oil rig. By the time he looked up it was gone. Nothing I could say would help him believe it was anything more than something explainable like a cloud. A perfectly circular cloud that moves faster than sound? I've seen some unbelievably strange clouds, but that sure beats the cake. The lady who tried hypnotizing me, that John Scheussler took me to to investigate my 2 close encounters, tells the story of her father who went insane after being followed all day down a freeway by 'them' because his mind just couldn't handle it. A prominent IRC contact of mine related to me about one member of a family who had a close encounter who committed suicide. The whole family had the encounter _together_. Only one member committed suicide. My own close encounters played tricks with my head as well. Until I had my second encounter, in the company of other witnesses who saw it as well, half my mind kept saying, "You know you saw it." And the other half kept saying, "Your going nuts." This circular battle in my head continued until I had the other eyewitnesses confirm my second encounter and my sanity. So, I've set out 2 different types of data here and will now attempt to piece them together so that we can all see that physical and cerebrally created aren't the only 2 possibilities in these matters. Try to step out of your box please. 1) If one looks at my own personal experiences with an open mind one can see clearly that they are of a spiritual nature and not of an hallucinatory one. One doesn't hallucinate the future correctly (the tree in the park incident). Nor does one hallucinate that someone physical will appear around the corner successfully 3 seconds after one has had the hallucination (another precognitive vision?, or just an out of body projection of a living being?, U be the judge). Remember, hallucinations are false and have no real connection with actual external phenomena. Unless you wish to term all spirits hallucinations, something only parapsychological neophytes would do (not you certainly?), then you can clearly see the success of my arguement over your neutonian physical/cerebral arguement here. 2) My father, myself, the man who went insane, my neighber, and the person who committed suicide (5 different people mind you) all couldn't accept the reality of what they encountered. As I said, my mind wouldn't settle down into believing what I saw was real until I was in the presence of others who saw it as well, confirming that I wasn't going insane. By the way, the children who were with us in that car all had their brains switched into neutral during that encounter. It was as if someone had shot them with the a freeze ray. They didn't move a single hair during the whole sighting. And, for those of you who believe this is an evil phenomena I will point out here that evil rarely, as far as I understand it, cares for the psychological well being of a young human child. If this were a phenomena that was created within the mind, only, then it is highly likely that the mind would be able to handle it better. In general organisms evolve WITHOUT such self destructive behavior. I'm definitely not discounting that many of these things could be merely hallucinations. But I am putting forth that: a) radar doesn't hallucinate b) hallucinations, by their very definition, don't involve, properly, that which is real and external and physical and, definitely not of a correct precognitive nature. I am _properly_ putting forth here that your physical/cerebrally hallucinated categories are not only short sighted but clearly fail to encompass much of the phenomena that the mind has such a hard time believing is real in _many_ cases. Go back to the drawing board and add that which you obviously have a hard time throwing into the equasion. It's called spirit. Read a couple thousand parapsychology reports done at major universities and realize that we are spirits in physical bodies and that... Oh well I'm wearing myself out here trying to get you to understand that which you obviously can't put into the equasion. Maybe in your next incarnation it will be easier for you to acknowledge what you are. Oh well I tried. Sincerely; Mike Beaver yoda@foxinternet.net http://web3.foxinternet.net/yoda/index.html ICQ # 15482206
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 16:54:11 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 18:55:13 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! - Mortellaro In a message dated 07/29/2000 1:10:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, updates@sympatico.ca writes: >Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 10:56:09 -0500 (CDT) >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> >Subject: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:21:48 -0700 >>From: SMiles Lewis <elfis@austin.rr.com> >>Subject: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! >>To: UFO UpDates <updates@sympatico.ca> >>I've been wondering... what is the status of the Dust Bunny >>Hunt? I sent my sample. Did others send samples? >>Please give us an update; were there not enuf respondants? Did >>you not find anything? Have you not had a chance to scope out >>the dust under the microscope? >I also sent mine in too, and I'm also curious about results or >lack thereof. >-Brian C. Dear Brain, Brian, (sorry), Smiles, Frowns and EBK, Damn! I was wondering what happened with them little critters myself. Of course, not being a contributor, I decided to keep my mouth shut on this issue, which for me, is quite an accomplishment. You know, when I was young (many yarns ago) I used to get into my 1953 Plymouth Cranbrook when I was getting enough of studying and stuff. To me, driving was the piece of resistance. It allowed my mind to just kind of float. Today, of course, I drink. Lots and lots of Gripple. But when I've had enough of the sauce and enough of writing for the day, I come home, right here, to UpDates, on order to kind of float my mind, rest, take it easy, forget about stuff. Doesn't work! Every time I come back to the cool taste, I wind up getting my mind messed up. Then I gotta sit right down and start writing to yous guys again. What a stinking shame this is. I always thought of UpDates as my own little private anti hell. (sighs) Oh well. Getting back to the cool taste... the reason I did not wish to intrude and aks why this dust bunny thing has not come to the fore. Well, I was just curious, but I did not wish to incur the wrath of Kahn in the aksing. I am very interested. Mostly because it was a good thought, altho a stab in the warmth and the dark, but a good idea. But more so because here in the Gesundt household, we don't have any dust bunnies. Not a one! Every since Rosie became disabled, I have stroved, striven, strooved, or whatever I done, to keep this house free of the little debils... bunnies. So I had nuttin to contribute. Hence, I hadda aks. Believe me, I woulda sent in all the dust bunnies I had. Really. I just didn't have any. No bunnies. Elephants ... we got lots a them. Dust elephants. Which makes it hard to sleep, as the mountain of dust under the bed is so large, it's tilted the bed. Always makes Rosie slide over to my side. Which I find very convenient. And now, she can't tell me to "roll over" any more. I'm already there. I just thought I would share that with you. I realize that there is no significance in the sum total of human knowledge in this post. And that the aformentioned sum total of human knowledge may even be detracted from. But I don't care. Sometimes you just gotta float, you know? Best, Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Pine Bush Research/Book Project From: Scott Carr <sardy_2000@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 14:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 18:56:39 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Pine Bush Research/Book Project Pine Bush / Cragsmoor Community UFO Research Project "Pine Bush: Perceptions of A Skywatcher", by Scott C. Carr Dear List, Readers of "The Flying Saucer Gazette" may be interested in the following: While there are currently no plans to resurrect "The Flying Saucer Gazette", I am in the beginning phases of another Pine Bush-oriented UFO project, a book tentatively titled "Pine Bush: Perceptions of A Skywatcher." "Pine Bush: Perceptions of A Skywatcher" is to be a nonfiction book chronicling the history of the UFO (and other)mysterious phenomena in the Pine Bush / Cragsmoor area of the Hudson Valley, as well as the development and sociology of the unique subculture of the Pine Bush Skywatchers. The book will detail many eyewitness and historical incidents of UFO sightings in the area, as well as personal and firsthand accounts and rememberances of the skywatching community. Reader / Experiencer input on this project is a necessity. If you, or someone you know, has has an experience of any kind (paranormal, UFO-related, or even a social experience or anecdote while skywatching) in the Pine Bush/Cragsmoor area that you would like to share, I would like to hear about it. Anonymity will be respected. I look forward to hearing from you. Please feel free to email me at: sardonica@erols.com or sardy_2000@yahoo.com or snail mail to: The Flying Saucer Gazette Scott C. Carr, Editor 84 Clinton St., Suite 1534 New York, NY 10002 For further information please check out: www.erols.com/sardonica A direct contact phone number, updates on the progress of the research, online polls and forums, ICQ information, and a web page devoted to "Pine Bush: Perceptions of A Skywatcher" will be forthcoming. Thank you for you time and expertise! Any thoughts or comments would be much appreciated! Sincerely, -Scott C. Carr Editor, The Flying Saucer Gazette sardonica@erols.com www.erols.com/sardonica
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Re: UFOIN Web Site - Randles From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 23:08:28 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 19:02:42 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: UFOIN Web Site - Randles Hi, Just to note there have been a few problems regarding access via an up to date address to the UFOIN web site. I can confirm that the address to use is : www.ufoin.org.uk Hopefully this should allow access for information updates, progress reports on our projects and it contains a full copy of the Code of Practice for anyone to download and use for their own purposes should they wish. Apologies for any confusion. Best wishes, Jenny Randles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 29 UpDate: Re: Essays On Abductions Gain Scholarly Nod - From: Peter Duke Mendoza Brookesmith <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 18:17:11 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 19:06:26 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Essays On Abductions Gain Scholarly Nod - Duke, compliments, List, harrumph. >Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:09:38 -0500 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Essays On Abductions Gain Scholarly Nod >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >As a contributor to this book, I'd like to say >that this article, which makes it seem as if the >volume were solely about the abduction phenomenon >rather than UFOs generally, is misleading. This is true, but not all that curious given that it seems to have been written with a glare askance at a publisher's puff (aka press release). I am reading this book thoroughly now, having skimmed it once or twice. It's worth the cover price for Ed Bullard's essay alone -- a real cracker. David Jacobs's contributions are models of balance from one whose elsewhere has pulled few punches in propounding his particular interpretation of "abductions", and his suggestions for future research are excellent, requiring no prior commitment to "UFO reality" in pointing to fruitful academic engagement. Jerry's article, although perhaps offering little new to those familiar with UFO history, is detailed, fascinating, and (as well as improving immensely on a not dissimilar piece he wrote for the Evans/Stacy Fortean Times volume) is admirably calculated to interest the book's target audience -- potentially open-minded academics. There are thoroughly loopy statements in the book here and there, some contributors being more expert at dottiness than others, but I won't spoil your fun by offering any justification for that remark here. _You_ choose! Buy, or at least read, this book if you can, and judge _then_ whether or not it'll convince the mainstream that UFOs are worth study. It would be interesting to hear people's opinions one way or the other. (Sorry Jerry -- you went and encouraged me. But then you weren't to know whose uncorrected proofs I had my scaly little hands on. Were you?? Never know, with your network.) best wishes Pocklington D. Middlewallop Gazeteer of the Unlikely
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 30 UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 1 - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 20:06:27 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 10:20:19 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 1 - Mortellaro >Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 14:17:36 -0400 (EDT) >From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 1 >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 03:09:46 -0700 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@JPS.NET> >>Subject: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 1 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>As promised (or threatened) I finally got some preliminary >>results from my correlation of monthly sunspot counts and UFO >>sightings frequencies. >>All data below are for the 36 year period from Jan 1940 to Dec >>1975 .. a period where there is good data overlap between >>sunspot.dat and the *U* Database. ><snip> >Larry, >Could you do an analysis of variance and report the numerical >statistical significance? >That would help to quantify the conclusion that there is _no_ >correlation. Wow, what a great idea. I was gonna aks the same question, but I didn't want yous guys to think I was so damned smart. Next time, well, I just won't hold back, you know? Quantify the anal isis of variable famouses and retort the number ickle spastic coincidence. Of course, this would be the proper and most scientific manner in which the expression should be rarified. Not the way you verbalized it, Bill Baley. And say, my old fiend Larwence of Hatchdom, congratulations yet again. Dammit I really mean that. Do you know how shmart you are? Huh? And you, makin believe you like to drink that smelly, long lasting German yellow liquid. I knew it. I knew it. You were a Gripple fan all along. You can't be as smart as me and not drink it. Come on, fess up, Larry. Pretty please with a cream in the middle and a cherry on top? With love and admiration, not to mention all them brians, brains, Dr. James Mortellaro, Ph.D. in Hi ... uh, Mathematics (among many other degrees - like, twelve centigrade, fourteen farhenhite, fahrenhite - uh, frig it, Celsius!)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 30 UpDate: Re: Spacenapping - Randles From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 01:16:50 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 10:24:53 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Spacenapping - Randles >Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 13:41:33 -0700 >From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> >Subject: Re: Spacenapping >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:02:27 +0100 >>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >>Subject: Spacenapping [was: Re: Selling Files] >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >In limiting the possibilities you have considered to either >physical or cerebral you have absolutely and completely left out >what is far more likely to be the cause of much of it. Hi, I do appreciate the length to which you have gone to try to impress upon me things that, although you would not know this, I do understand. I am not suggesting there is a straight choice between literal physical reality of the abduction experience and all in the mind type hallucinations without real cause. Indeed the evidence struggles to accommodate all nuances of this complex and confusing phenomenon as I have often recognised in my writing. That is why it is so fascinating. Nor am I as ignorant of the intriguing field of psychic phenomena, as you assume. I have written books on ESP, near death experiences, mediums, time slips, precognition, spontaneous human combustion and several other areas . Equally, I have explored my own (alleged) past life memories, conducted experiments into remote viewing and psychometry and the two most vivid strange phenomena that I have personally experienced are: 1: An out of body experience that appeared very real and to this day is considered by me to be real (although I do know that it might not have been) 2: Several utterly convincing precognitions - including one of the Challenger space shuttle tragedy that I do believe demonstrate the reality of this phenomenon (indeed I am more convinced of precognition than of any other phenomenon including aliens) . My research into these areas has without doubt left me with an open mind on the nature of such matters and whilst I do not have firm views on most of them (we need more sober experimentation and evidence to judge) and whilst my own experiences may, I appreciate, have other explanations, I am well aware that these could indicate hidden dimensions to life. And that these could have relevance to UFO close encounters. It is, of course, not your fault that you did not know any of this. But there's a lot more to my views than the simple response that I gave the other day - which debated only one aspect of the abduction mystery (its apparent reality). I was simply warning that with all seemingly persuasive evidence there are several ways to look at it. We have to approach this subject primarily through the science that we know and only move into areas of new science when there is no other reasonable choice. This means initially evaluating the data in terms of the options that science provides and seeing if a good match occurs for them. Yes, it is arguable that some close encounters involve non physical realities. I have certainly considered that area in my work - through books such as 'Star Children'. But it is very difficult to evaluate such things and reach conclusions that lead anywhere beyond speculation and I think it is not proper to assume them to be more than possibilities (which they clearly are) in the absence of overwhelming evidence. And it really behooves us to take this very significant exploration of strange phenomenon carefully, one step at a time, eliminating the physical and known phenomena that it is possible to eliminate by way of experimentation, data collection and proven knowledge. This is important simply because of the potential significance of both the answers we seek and the questions we pose. Hasty decisions lead to hasty conclusions and these often in turn provoke false beliefs that can last for centuries. To this end we can seek patterns in data. We can note the profile of witnesses, their psychological background etc. We can look for cases that test objective reality - such as observed abductions. And we can seek anything non terrestrial (ET DNA, genuinely new knowledge beyond current human comprehension etc). And we can from that make reasoned value judgements as to how well the scientifically testable theories succeed (or fail). That's where we stand, I believe. Which is not at all to say that we may not need more esoteric interpretations to explain the sum total of data in the final analysis. But because such ideas are intrinsically beyond our ken and almost impossible to prove/disprove, accepting them as the answer is in truth little better than admitting defeat and agreeing that the phenomenon is insoluble. That may end up being the way of it - but for me it makes sense to explore what we are scientifically able to explore first. We are a long way from exhausting the possible areas of research here or disproving the more rational alternatives. Until we do stepping into the great beyond is a needless extravagance. >Everyone in the family, including the >mother have all participated in these "dreams." As I said, they >all have the scoop marks and can all recall exactly which nights >they all participated in these "dreams." The scoop marks problem is an area where what looks like physical evidence may be deceptive. The argument goes, aliens do experiments, they may leave marks, if a witness has a scoop mark they may have been abducted. All of which is possibly true. But, science says the following is just as likely true. Lots of people have marks and do not think they have been abducted. There seem logical ways unexplained scars on the body can form (forgotten childhood accidents, banging your knee on the car door last month, etc). Can we be sure that there is any causal link between scars and abductions? How to test this? One way is to discover the incidence level of scoop marks, and I tried this more than a decade ago when the scars as abduction symptoms theory first surfaced. I found that such marks were so common hardly anybody I checked out did not have a scoop mark of some sort on their legs or arms that they had no idea was there. I have several myself. Now there are two ways to interpret this simple experimental data. Way one is to say - boy, this shows that 90% of the planet has secretly been abducted and doesn't know it. The other is to suggest, scoop marks are remarkably common and therefore their incidence in any specific case is pretty meaningless in terms of its reality as a literal abduction. You can adopt either. Good scientific protocol and British common sense (caution) cause me to adopt the latter. But I am not unaware that I could be wrong. I just feel that we need to see a lot more (and better) evidence of a different sort before assuming that I am. >Remember, hallucinations >are false and have no real connection with actual external >phenomena. Well, not really. Hallucinations are phenomena within perception - imagery that is internally generated. In truth all of our perception of the world is an hallucination because it depends upon internally generated imagery that reflects sensory stimuli. That's exactly how we 'see' the universe, creating experience by mixing physical sensations with mental processes and even belief systems. Its how we see a cat sat on a mat. Its also how we see an alien sat on a UFO. There really is not much difference. The trigger can be many things - including physically objective and external ones or bodily functions. The sensation of a heavy pressure on the chest often gives rise to a hallucination of someone sitting on you. I interviewed a witness with a classic night terror case of this type the other day. The physical cause in such cases is almost certainly subconscious awareness of the bodily paralysis during deep sleep. So its a physically real event triggering an hallucinated reaction that simulates visionary experiences by way of expectation. You cannot say this is real or unreal, because its neither and its both. Perception is a vastly complex area and Ufology is one of the best sources of information about it - sadly neglected by most of the specialists in this field who are unaware of the treasure trove it provides. I do agree that at the heart of the close encounter may lie clues to questions as significant as how we see, how we feel, how we think and the essence of reality. Its possible we will learn about alien contact too. But I think its rather more likely that we will discover things about our own inner space and that, indeed, in the long run that will be of much greater benefit to mankind. >a) radar doesn't hallucinate No - it sees angels (anomalous images are sometimes called this). But I have never suggested - and do not believe - that there are no physically real UFOs. I do believe there are new phenomena on the fringes of scientific understanding that are real, objective, have energy fields, can be photographed, can effect radar, can create physical and physiological effects and interest the worlds governments and authorities because of their potential to be used for offensive or defensive purposes. My only argument is what role (if any) these have in abductions. Because Ufology is a collection of disparate mysteries with various explanations and a number of unexplained phenomena within. These are joined together largely by social forces, belief systems and expectations that turn what are really separate enigmas with varying solutions into one illusionary whole. There is no 'UFO Mystery'. There are various mysteries. This is one of the most enduring and one of the most persistently misleading misconceptions that we need to address. Best wishes, Jenny Randles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 30 UpDate: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 7-29-00 From: Rense E-News <e-news@the-i.net> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 21:16:04 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 10:27:44 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 7-29-00 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Search, Select and Save! FREE Quotes - Maid Services, Landscaping, Moving, Home Repair Services and More! ServiceLane has a network of reputable and reliable service pros for all your home service needs! http://click.egroups.com/1/7614/2/_/1973/_/964925197/ -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Jeff Rense Weekly E-News ---------------------------------------------------------------- The Week Ahead 7-30-00 thru 8-5-00 Guests, Announcements, Week's Top Stories From sightings.com Jeff Rense E-News is distributed exclusively by Free Subscription. --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- * READER'S CORNER * Some interesting letters from you, our readers: Bush Said Yes to UFO Issue! From Andrew 7-29-00 Hi Jeff, My name is Andrew and I live in Milwaukee, WI. I listen to your show via Real Audio on the internet. I really enjoy your show. This Saturday, July 29th around 11am when I was surfing the net and listening to CNN Headlines News, there was an article on Bush and Dick Cheney. I was suddenly shocked by a quick video clip and a mention of a man who asked the candidates to finally clarify UFO's to the public. Bush smiled and said the he would! Cheney forced a smile and looked down at the floor. I will try to get it taped. To me, it was more important that CNN actually showed this footage then what was actually said in it. I certainly don't expect Bush to follow up with that promise. I hope more people can do what this man did. I have tried to catch up with the candidates when they are in town, but it is so difficult. I've noticed it is not an easy chore. Anyways, it was very interesting to see that news story. Sincerely, Andrew --------------- Jeff, I've been receiving your regular email-newsletters since I got onto the internet about a year ago and have found it not only essential for keeping up with what's really going on in the world, but also the best possible source of leads to valuable information by anybody who's researching just about anything of interest. So congratulations, and thanks also for storing all your radio programs and making them available to overseas people like me. Many thanks, Denis ------------ Dear Sightings, There used to be a time that I looked forward to waking up in the morning and reading a newspaper over a cup of coffee either at home or when abroad at a cafe...used to be. Now when I wake up I inevitably prepare the coffee but I immediately go to Sightings before any other website and I never spend time or money on newspapers unless it is to research their spinning between the lines. Many of my associates do the same thing. Thanks Jeff and all of you. We are very proud of you. Regards, Dwight ----- The following comes from our 'It Takes All Kinds' file. As you might imagine, we receive some strange email... Delivered-To: eotl@west.net Subject: Was it real or was it memorex. So, who is the real you, Art, is it nobody, is it Dave, was that one of your clones that was captured, was that one of your clones that I saw yesterday? Is it nobody I have ever seen but you want me to think you looked that way? Was that a computer generated hologram they captured, or was it a hyperdiementional 3D projection of you that I saw yesterday, I don't know? Do you ever go out, or do you always stay in some underground bunker? I saw you in a dream the day before Friday the 13th, and you looked the way you indicated you looked, but so did Mesha and he's a salamander. My dreams are always right though, and you did have injuries on your face, that would indicate to me that either you are now in a Lucy in the sky diamond cage, and were banging your face against an invisible shield, or you soon will be. When you are, you will be under the MCP's control, you will go where ever it wants you to go, and you can not use any puppets, just your own body. And if you are in a diamond cage, you are above the law and can not be arrested, but you can't do what you want either. I don't care, whatever, it's all up to the MCP, either he's going to enlighten me or not, its not up to you. Jim Rudometkin ------------------- Opinions and facts presented in Jeff Rense E-News are those of the writers and do not necessarily represent those of Jeff Rense, Sightings, sightings.com or the newsletter editors. Past and present guests: to be showcased in "The Guest Corner", please email mailto:e-news@the-i.net?Subject=Guest_Corner --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- "Well, humor is the great thing, the saving thing, after all. The minute it crops up, all our hardnesses yield, all our irritations and resentments flit away, and a sunny spirit takes their place." -- "Mark Twain On The Damned Human Race" --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- The Immortal By J. J. Dewey Is John, the author of the Apocalypse, the Apostle, the Beloved, still walking the earth as a teacher of mysteries? 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 30 UpDate: Re: Spacenapping - Cuthbertson From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 22:24:34 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 10:43:37 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Spacenapping - Cuthbertson >Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 13:41:33 -0700 >From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> >Subject: Re: Spacenapping >To: updates@sympatico.ca <snip> >I am _properly_ putting forth here that your physical/cerebrally >hallucinated categories are not only short sighted but clearly >fail to encompass much of the phenomena that the mind has such a >hard time believing is real in _many_ cases. >Go back to the drawing board and add that which you obviously >have a hard time throwing into the equasion. It's called spirit. >Read a couple thousand parapsychology reports done at major >universities and realize that we are spirits in physical bodies >and that... Oh well I'm wearing myself out here trying to get >you to understand that which you obviously can't put into the >equasion. Maybe in your next incarnation it will be easier for >you to acknowledge what you are. Oh well I tried. Good points Mike. You touched upon a very salient dimension to the "UFO" phenomenon. Unfortunately I'm afraid its probably a raw nerve to many. Extraterrestrials bend most folks' world view enough already. Now mix in the possibility that they may be bound up with our own spirituality, reincarnation, etc, and you've tossed a huge monkey wrench into the overly tidy philisophical and religious frameworks on which many folks depend for sanity, particularly in our western cultures. So don't expect much support for such remarks. I agree with you though: based on my own reading and study, I'd guess the whole bizness is all interelated. People looking for "simple" answers (nuts, bolts, hallucinations) are chasing n-dimensional solutions to N-dimensional puzzles, where N>>n. How much you wanna bet they won't find them? Ufology often reminds me of the story of the blind men and the elephant. Except that in ufology the blind men shout a lot :-) Onward thru the fog, -Brian Cuthbertson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 30 UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 2 [Waves] - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 00:14:18 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 10:45:44 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 2 [Waves] - Maccabee >Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 03:55:27 -0700 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >Subject: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 2 [Waves] >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Dear Sirs and Mmes: >This is the second installment of my sunspots study; this time >how they correspond (or don't) to UFO waves. <snip> Thanks for all your work on statistics. Too bad there's no correlation. I guess the Klingon Cloaking device also shields from nasty solar radiation as well!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 30 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 09:01:35 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 10:50:47 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Rimmer >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 23:10:44 -0400 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Rimmer >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 08:51:27 +0100 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Rimmer >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:29:27 -0400 >>>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>These kids suffer from sleep disorders, panic attacks, >>>separation anxiety, and much more. Now, our culture seems to >>>have become accustomed to "Alien" images. They are in magazine >>>ads, TV ads, TV programs, Movies. I get a catalog every month >>>and it's incredible how much of it is taken up with "alien" >>>merchandise. Dolls, spaceships, key chains, little games, cake >>>molds, etc., etc. >>Does it not occur to you that you've answered the question here? >>Children have always suffered from sleep disorders, panic >>attacks, anxiety, and so forth. And they've always fantasised >>about "monsters", invisible friends and the like. But as you say >>"our culture seems to have become accustomed to alien images." >>They are everywhere, and are quite unavoidable. >>Just because a parent doesn't talk to a child about their own >>abduction experiences it doesn't mean that they can be insulated >>from the images that are all around them. Kids aren't stupid >>(mostly!) and they're very quick to pick up on atmosphere, >>unconscious hints, overheard fragments of conversation. Put >>these together with a Saturday morning TV diet of aliens, >>abductions and general fantasy and is it surprising that they >>create stories of visits by wierd creatures? >More armchair theorizing. >Everybody knows what the unshakeable Mr. Rimmer tells us. What >he doesn't know is that abductee parents take it into account >when they worry about what their kids report. They may be wrong, >of course, but the comfortable Mr. Rimmer can't tell us that >with any authority. Unless, of course, he's talked to abductees, >and, with the help of a skilled professional, determined that >their children are only suffering from normal fears. >But probably he hasn't done that. Possibly he doesn't think he >has to, since he seems so certain that he knows what's going on. >I'll repeat my mantra of a few days ago (slightly changed): >I think it would be helpful if abduction skeptics would include >actual facts in their critiques. (Facts, that is, about specific >abduction cases.) >I think it would be helpful if they'd demonstrate that they know >something about the subjects they're addressing. (By, just for >instance, acknowledging the existence of arguments against the >specific points they're making, if those arguments have already >surfaced in the abduction debate.) >I thnk it would be helpful if they'd pose their objections >calmly, without derisive language. (Or, as in this case, without >stating the obvious in resounding tones, and then retiring in >triumph, as if no one had ever said such a thing before.) >I think it would be helpful if they'd simply ask questions when >they come across something they don't know about that puzzles or >troubles them. (As the complacent Mr. Rimmer could have done, if >he had written his post along the following lines: "Children >have always suffered from sleep disorders, panic attacks, >anxiety, and so forth. I'm curious to know why you don't think >that's happening here.") >Me, I'm curious to know why the talented Mr. Rimmer seems more >interested in scoring points than in genuine debate. Yes, I know I was stating the obvious here, and I'm very well aware that I am not the first person to come up with these ideas. That's precisely why I was so surprised that someone could put those two concepts (children's fears and panic attacks, and the prevalence of alien imagery) together without appearing to realise what they were implying. Mr Sandow seems to suggest that I should ask more questions before giving my opinions. Fair enough, here are some questions: 1. Children have always suffered from sleep disorders, panic attacks, anxiety and so forth. I'm curious to know why you don't think that's happening here. 2. How do abductee parents take such factors into account when they worry about what their kids report? 3. Do you have any facts from specific abduction cases where skilled professionals have determined that abductee parents' children are suffering from more than sleep disorders, panic attacks and so forth, and have diagnosed that the childrens' fears are fuelled by an external, non-conventional source? -- John Rimmer Magonia Magazine www.magonia.demon.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 30 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 09:21:46 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 10:48:39 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Rimmer >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 23:40:10 -0400 (EDT) >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 08:51:27 +0100 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Rimmer >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Does it not occur to you that you've answered the question here? >>Children have always suffered from sleep disorders, panic >>attacks, anxiety, and so forth. And they've always fantasised >>about "monsters", invisible friends and the like. But as you say >>"our culture seems to have become accustomed to alien images." >>They are everywhere, and are quite unavoidable. >Dear John, Liz and others interested, and especially you, Mr. >Knapp, >John, you have not addressed the issue of those "kids" who are >now adults and who have had memories from early childhood which >could not possibly have originated in any of the venues you >listed. >Mostly because there were, in the mid forties, no TVs in our >households, and our ages (varying from age two and up) precluded >reading of this subject... I mean we may have been smart kids >but largely did not read at age two and three... or seeing the >images of these vehicles, etc., etc. >I was drawing those images at age three. These picture, which >my mom still has, were drawn by me and dated by mom and or dad. >They were of typical saucer shaped objects replete with flashing >lights. And this was even before the "Day the Earth Stood >Still!" >How do you answer that conundrum? And no, I was not the only >one. I have the statements of about 40 perceived abductees >about my age. How do you account for that? >In our time, the present time, I take no exception with your >opine. But not in my time, back in the forties. I'm a bit reluctant to reply to Mr Mortellaro's posts, lest I get swamped by allegedly humourous ramblings about Gezunt, Gripple and all the rest, but here goes: I'd be very interested to see some of your childhood drawings. Would it be possible for them to be scanned and placed somewhere on the Internet for us to examine, or are they already there? Have any of your non- saucer related drawings from the same period been preserved? If so would it be possible to examine them? Are the stements of the 40 "perceived abductees" also supported by contemporary evidence such as dated drawings, or are the statements drawn from memories recalled many years after the events? If the statements are confirmed by parents, did they talk or write about these events at the time they occured or are their confirmatory statements also made from memory after the event? To reiterate Dennis Stacy's question: why do none of these experiences appear in the contemporary literature in the forties and fifties or earlier? If they were taking place _before_ the UFO concept became commonplace, they would not be open to the kind of ridicule which is allegedly shown to people who report similar events today >>>How long has it taken for UFO's to make it into any >>>mainstream Scientific Journals? Has anything concerning UFO's, >>>of a positive nature, ever made it into one of the >>>Internationally recognized peer reviewed Journals? But patience, >>>these things take time. Maybe in ten years or so all of this, >>>UFO's, Abductions, will be considered part of respectable >>>Science and will be written up in of the Journals without any >>>fanfare. Just another article. One can only hope, right? >>And that'll be a good thing will it? We'll at last be able to >>tell kids, "It's OK junior, mummy knows whats happening. You're >>not just having nasty dreams, you _really_are_ being abducted by >>creatures with supernatural powers, and there's absolutely >>nothing that daddy or I can do about it". What a relief that'll >>be! >A serious and gross exageration, John. You should know better. I don't understand why you think this is an exaggeration. What would _you_ suggest parents told children who had such frightening experiences and came to them for reassurance? What did your parents tell you? >I've read many of your posts. Why are you so dead set against >the possibility? If it were some other people on this list, I >would accuse you of being afraid of the possibility. That cannot >be you, can it? What possibility do you mean? The possibility that young children are being tortured and abused by some alien force beyond our current understanding? >So wussup wit yous, Yo. Just want to make sure I am in the >proper time line. Oh dear, is this the start of some gripple-type humour? Regards -- John Rimmer Magonia Magazine www.magonia.demon.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 30 UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Mulvey From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 04:38:29 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 10:53:14 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Mulvey >Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 11:24:48 -0400 (EDT) >From: John Carpenter <StarmanJC@aol.com> >Subject: Re: John Carpenter Responds >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:13:36 -0400 >>From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Re: John Carpenter Responds >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 00:23:09 -0400 (EDT) >>From: John Carpenter <StarmanJC@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: John Carpenter Responds >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>John, >>Can you please tell this list if you intend to notify the 120 >>families who have remained ignorant for over three years that >>you have sold their abduction files? >>We all await your response. >Dear Ann, >I do not have any problem with doing so, other than the fact >that over the past 12 years most people have moved and I have >not been in contact with them for a very long time. That is not >an excuse but just a fact of real life. Many people do not stay >at the same address for 12 years. That project did not involve >anybody that I've worked with in the past 5 years, so nobody >would be a recent contact. >John Hi John, It sounds to me like you could use the help of somebody with the resources to locate these people. How about Robert Bigelow? Would you be opposed to contacting Mr. Bigelow and asking him to provide the resources to locate those families which you are unable to contact? Mr. Bigelow is already aware that this community holds him partially responsible for these families remaining ignorant after all these years, so hopefully he'll immediately understand your request and the urgency of the matter now. With his resources, pulling those files out of the closet [irony alert] and having a couple of staff, who are bound by an employee confidentiality clause, work on it steadily - that information might very well be available to you in a matter of a few days. As for how you planned on contacting these families, there has been some concern voiced by this community regarding extreme reactions. It may well be in everyone's best interest if you could also discuss with Mr. Bigelow the possibility of having a therapist available should the need arise - free of charge of course, to the abductee/family. If this plan doesn't appeal to you, feel free to come up with another, but come up with something. Given the resources of the information superhighway, and that failing, what Mr. Bigelow has at his disposal, the reasoning behind your inability to locate families who have moved, to tell them the truth, is negated. You've put us all in a very uncomfortable position John. See, your actions tell us that during the past 3+ years, you never felt accountable to tell these people, who trusted you, about the sale of these files. Now somebody like me, who is a nobody to you, is telling you that you are accountable John. That's a fact of real life. Keep us posted. Ann Mulvey
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 30 UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 2 [Waves] - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 02:18:54 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 10:55:31 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 2 [Waves] - Hatch >Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:37:46 -0400 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >Subject: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 2 [Waves] >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 03:55:27 -0700 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >>Subject: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 2 [Waves] >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>6) The French wave of 1954 still holds the record for all times >>and places: ( 431 listings for October alone ). Mars was at some >>intermediate distance, but Venus made a very close approach to >>Earth, as little as 0.267 AU in the midst of this highly >>localized wave. The "spill over" into neighboring countries, >>long presumed by French observers at the time, has yet to >>materialize in my records. With the exception of Italy, this >>flap seemed to be localized to France .. all of France, and >>almost only France. Sunspot activity was virtually rock-bottom, >>an average of 7 sunspots/diem for all of October 1954. >Here's a wonderful opportunity for psychosocial analysis -- but >please, not from amateurs. Let's hear from someone with >professional knowledge of both sociology and French culture. >What was it in 1950's France that made people likely to report >UFOs? (A question worth asking even if the UFOs turn out to be >genuine anomalies.) Hello Greg: Yes, that is one possible aspect of the 1954 French wave. I should add that I have plenty of French cases before and after this wave, France is second only to the USA in sightings counts in my data. It is indeed a good question: What made the French suddenly more likely to report UFOs in and about October of 1954, several times as likely as preceding and following months and years. Could it simply be that there were more objects to see and report? I have never found out the dates the US Military introduced tactical nuclear weapons into France as a counter-balance to the new Soviet weapons. IF I don't know now, the French public didn't know in 1954, so perhaps we can scratch that. In any case, here is a histogram for all of Europe for 1954. The vast majority of cases were in France, in October. A most interesting spate of psycho-sociology, if that is an explanation. http://www.jps.net/larryhat/YDAY54.html Here also is a map of Europe for the same era. http://www.jps.net/larryhat/EUR54.html Note how oddly vacant most countries outside of France are. Best wishes - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 30 UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 1 - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 04:24:35 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 10:58:56 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 1 - Hatch >Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 14:17:36 -0400 (EDT) >From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 1 >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 03:09:46 -0700 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@JPS.NET> >>Subject: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 1 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>As promised (or threatened) I finally got some preliminary >>results from my correlation of monthly sunspot counts and UFO >>sightings frequencies. >>All data below are for the 36 year period from Jan 1940 to Dec >>1975.. a period where there is good data overlap between >>sunspot.dat and the *U* Database. ><snip> >Larry, >Could you do an analysis of variance and report the numerical >statistical significance? >That would help to quantify the conclusion that there is _no_ >correlation. - - - - - - - - Tim: The snipped part said: "In fact, I found no significant difference at all! For the 10,922 filtered *U* sightings in this period, the data breaks downs thus:" i.e. no _significant_ difference. There is a small numerical difference yes, I have it as 26.00 sightings events per month during low sunspot activity, versus 24.39 per month for months with high (65 or more) sunspots averages. Granted, there is a smallish correlation of UFO activity to periods of solar "quiet", meaning fewer sunspots and presumably lower danger for astronauts and spacecraft. Since the average for all months was 25.28 events per month, the non-SS months had 26.00 E/M which is 0.72 more events than expected, roughly 2.8 % higher. The SS months averaged 24.39 events or 0.89 events lower, i.e. 3.52 % lower than the average for all month in the study. I'm no statistician, but I'll bet 50 cents that statisticians would not consider deviations from the "norm" or mean average of only 3 or 3.5 percent to be "statistically significant". The Mean Deviation (from Murray Spiegel's book Statistics) would be (0.72 + 0.89)/ 2 which equals 0.805. The Standard deviation s is almost exactly the same (unless I goofed) at 0.8094. The actual deviations are of course just about this size, i.e. not very compelling. The Chi-Squared value is 0.051833, indicating "deviations" from the norm are quite small, and could well be written off to chance, unless I misread this. The examples in the Spiegel book show chi-squares many times larger before a tossed coin (for example) could be considered "unfair" to a reasonable "level of significance." I'm no expert at this. Any mathematicians out there? Best! - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 30 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Keith From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 08:47:54 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 12:00:30 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Keith >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:29:48 -0700 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >I guess it all boils down to the "researcher". >1. A researcher without a degree in medical therapy has no >freaking right to play with people's mind. His _only_ concern >should be to put the people in touch with a professional. >2. The researcher's prime duty is to establish a rooster of >professional therapists who can and will deal with abduction >subjects. >3. If the researcher fails to do that, he should resign or >associate himself with another researcher who can help people >out. >4. Any researcher who dares to hypnotize a subject by himself >is an incompetent fool. He should have his car painted in >fluorescent red. >5. When it comes to children, multiply that by ten and roll >him in tar and chicken feathers. Thank you, Serge! Very well said. best, Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 30 UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Hubbell From: Katherine Hubbell <C8tlin@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 11:49:06 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 12:18:26 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Hubbell >Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 04:38:29 -0400 >From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: John Carpenter Responds >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 11:24:48 -0400 (EDT) >>From: John Carpenter <StarmanJC@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: John Carpenter Responds >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:13:36 -0400 >>>From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >>>Subject: Re: John Carpenter Responds >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>John, >>>Can you please tell this list if you intend to notify the 120 >>>families who have remained ignorant for over three years that >>>you have sold their abduction files? >>>We all await your response. >>Dear Ann, >>I do not have any problem with doing so, other than the fact >>that over the past 12 years most people have moved and I have >>not been in contact with them for a very long time. That is not >>an excuse but just a fact of real life. Many people do not stay >>at the same address for 12 years. That project did not involve >>anybody that I've worked with in the past 5 years, so nobody >>would be a recent contact. >>John >Hi John, >It sounds to me like you could use the help of somebody with the >resources to locate these people. How about Robert Bigelow? >Would you be opposed to contacting Mr. Bigelow and asking him to >provide the resources to locate those families which you are >unable to contact? >Mr. Bigelow is already aware that this community holds him >partially responsible for these families remaining ignorant >after all these years, so hopefully he'll immediately understand >your request and the urgency of the matter now. With his >resources, pulling those files out of the closet [irony alert] >and having a couple of staff, who are bound by an employee >confidentiality clause, work on it steadily - that information >might very well be available to you in a matter of a few days. >As for how you planned on contacting these families, there has >been some concern voiced by this community regarding extreme >reactions. It may well be in everyone's best interest if you >could also discuss with Mr. Bigelow the possibility of having a >therapist available should the need arise - free of charge of >course, to the abductee/family. >If this plan doesn't appeal to you, feel free to come up with >another, but come up with something. Given the resources of the >information superhighway, and that failing, what Mr. Bigelow has >at his disposal, the reasoning behind your inability to locate >families who have moved, to tell them the truth, is negated. >You've put us all in a very uncomfortable position John. See, >your actions tell us that during the past 3+ years, you never >felt accountable to tell these people, who trusted you, about >the sale of these files. Now somebody like me, who is a nobody >to you, is telling you that you are accountable John. That's a >fact of real life. >Keep us posted. >Ann Mulvey Hi Ann, I am continually amazed by Mr. Carpenter's reluctance to be a stand-up guy and take responsibility for his actions. This whole thing reads like a two-year-old getting caught with his hand in a cookie jar and trying to talk his way out of it. The individuals whose files were sold need to know and they need to know as soon as possible. The "they moved" excuse just doesn't wash with me. Hasn't Mr. Carpenter ever heard of directory assistance? What are the odds that those who moved moved to another state or another city? Pretty slim. The longer this continues, the more damage is done to abductees everywhere. - Katherine Hubbell
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 30 UpDate: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Sleep Paralysis Vs From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 11:54:26 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 12:21:43 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Sleep Paralysis Vs >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:41:27 -0400 >Subject: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:21:29 -0400 >>From: Lesley Cluff <manitou@fox.nstn.ca> >>Subject: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>There is such a big difference between sleep paralysis and >>abduction, that I have trouble believing anyone could confuse >>the two or even suggest the first when the second is claimed by >>the victim. >I have experienced both sleep paralysis and abduction. They are >as different as different can be. During the "sleep paralysis" I >was absolutley terrifed, desperatly trying to get my voice to >work so I could get my husbands attention. Totally paralysed >from head to toe, unable to move or speak. Finally, after what >seemed like hours of silent screaming, my voice came back and I >screamed so much and so loud that I ended up losing my voice for >several days. I remember the entire incident, start to finish. >There was no one else there but my husband. I was not removed >from my bed or taken anywhere. >During an abduction paralysis, at least in my experience, there >is NO fear involved at all. The "Rod" that I have seen them use >on me brings about a state of gentle euphoria and immediatley >takes away any fear that you might initially have had realizing >They were there. You are not as completely paralysed and unable >to move as in sleep paralysis. You are able to move your body, I >would describe it more as "limpness" than paralysis. You are >then kept in that state throughout the abduction, I imagine to >make it easier to control us. >The abject fear comes after the fact. The next day, when you >realize something has happened. Or, if you remember bits and >pieces, even more terror at what was done to you or what may >have been done that you are unable to remember. This was not so >with the sleep paralysis. I am not crippled with fear just >remembering it as I am with abduction memories. Once it ended, >it was over. A nasty incident, to be sure, but not one that >fills me with dread as my abduction memories do. >Yes, Leslie, it is outragous to me that someone would say I am >"only" suffering from sleep paralysis. Doing that denigrates all >of the abductees out there who have spent thier whole lives >being terrorized by this. Don't people realize that nothing >would make us happier than to find out that we are suffering >from some sort of physical ailment? That someone had some new >medication that could "make it all go away"? It seems to me that abductees who are looking for a way to "make it all go away" might want to reconsider the hypothesis that their abductions are cases of Awareness during Sleep Paralysis [ASP] because this perspective empowers the experiencer and makes the problem solvable for many of them. I've done quite a lot of research in this area and, for several years now, I've maintained a mailing list for ASP experiencers [ASP-L@Onelist.com]. What I've found is that ASP experiencers do take control of their experiences. Some learn to to forcibly awakening the physical body, thus terminating the experience. Others learn to relax and enjoy the feeling of being paralyzed. Still others learn to use ASP as an opportunity to initiate a lucid dream or out of body experience. >Fact is, there is no proof that what is happening to us is not >real, and much proof that it is. ... People who >go to bed at night without a mark on them and wake up the next >day with unexplained puncture marks, scars, bruises, scoop >marks, this is not evidence? Of course this is evidence. The question is 'Evidence of what?'. >Is there one person out there who >had an episode of sleep paralysis that caused anything of this >nature? I've know of several such cases. It's not exactly common, but neither is it rare. >Yes, Leslie, it is damn insulting, and I for one am tired of all >the effort to make liars of us all. None of us wants this! None >of us is happy with it! None of us wake up in the morning >thankful to be an abductee. If this were so, you would be >hearing from many more than just the small handful that dares to >"come out" and make ourselves known. For every one of us who >writes in to something like this List, using our own names, >there are about 200 more who remain anonymous. This is not >something that you see people lining up to admit to. I just >don't think you see that with people who have suffered from >sleep paralysis, do you? Many ASP experiencers have gone years, sometimes decades, without telling anyone about their experiences for fear of being thought 'crazy'. Only after they found a community of other experiencers were they able to come forward with their own accounts. Joseph Polanik [Note: one can subscribe to ASP-L by sending a blank email to ASP-L-subscribe@onelist.com] ***************************************************** Joseph Polanik, jpolanik@mindspring.com Trionic Research Institute, http://www.trionica.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 31 UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 2 [Waves] - Young From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 12:20:34 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 19:23:52 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 2 [Waves] - Young >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 12:37:46 -0400 >Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 13:05:20 -0400 >Subject: UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 2 [Waves] - Sandow >>Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 03:55:27 -0700 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >>Subject: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 2 [Waves] >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>6) The French wave of 1954 still holds the record for all times >>and places: ( 431 listings for October alone ). Mars was at some >>intermediate distance, but Venus made a very close approach to >>Earth, as little as 0.267 AU in the midst of this highly >>localized wave. The "spill over" into neighboring countries, >>long presumed by French observers at the time, has yet to >>materialize in my records. With the exception of Italy, this >>flap seemed to be localized to France .. all of France, and >>almost only France. Sunspot activity was virtually rock-bottom, >>an average of 7 sunspots/diem for all of October 1954. >Here's a wonderful opportunity for psychosocial analysis -- but >please, not from amateurs. Let's hear from someone with >professional knowledge of both sociology and French culture. >What was it in 1950's France that made people likely to report >UFOs? (A question worth asking even if the UFOs turn out to be >genuine anomalies.) Greg, Larry, Francofiles everywhere: They lost Indochina, and the Algerian War began. Clear skies, Bob Young Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 31 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 14:09:53 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 20:06:43 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Mortellaro >Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 09:21:46 +0100 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 23:40:10 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 08:51:27 +0100 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> >>>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Rimmer >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >>John, you have not addressed the issue of those "kids" who are >>now adults and who have had memories from early childhood which >>could not possibly have originated in any of the venues you >>listed. > >>Mostly because there were, in the mid forties, no TVs in our >>households, and our ages (varying from age two and up) precluded >>reading of this subject... I mean we may have been smart kids >>but largely did not read at age two and three... or seeing the >>images of these vehicles, etc., etc. >>I was drawing those images at age three. These picture, which >>my mom still has, were drawn by me and dated by mom and or dad. >>They were of typical saucer shaped objects replete with flashing >>lights. And this was even before the "Day the Earth Stood >>Still!" >>How do you answer that conundrum? And no, I was not the only >>one. I have the statements of about 40 perceived abductees >>about my age. How do you account for that? >>In our time, the present time, I take no exception with your >>opine. But not in my time, back in the forties. >I'm a bit reluctant to reply to Mr Mortellaro's posts, lest I >get swamped by allegedly humourous ramblings about Gezunt, >Gripple and all the rest, but here goes: Dear John, Listers and EBK, I shall ignore your opening statement. Except to hiccup. (Hic) And trust me, I too, am a bit reluctant to anwer many posts here on UpDates. It's why I drink. So I can answer you without my angst showing. >I'd be very interested to see some of your childhood drawings. >Would it be possible for them to be scanned and placed somewhere >on the Internet for us to examine, or are they already there? >Have any of your non- saucer related drawings from the same >period been preserved? If so would it be possible to examine >them? Several of these will be released this year, sooner or later than several months. The rest will appear in my book, with statements provided by those who saved them... my parents. I shall release some of these on UpDates, when the time is right for a publishing date. So far, this project has been much more complex than I imagined... read: time consuming. >Are the stements of the 40 "perceived abductees" also supported >by contemporary evidence such as dated drawings, or are the >statements drawn from memories recalled many years after the >events? Yes, some are. And for reasons of privacy, I shall not distribute any of these prior to publication of the book. I promise, however, to ask those involved if they wish to participate in an early release of their materials (in part) along with some of mine. I have not a clue as to their answers. However I must admit that the statements I've received from the perceived abductees reflect memory recall for the most part. And some of these folks have seen and worked with researchers whom I consider to be among the best. And no, that information will not be part of the book. >If the statements are confirmed by parents, did they talk or >write about these events at the time they occured or are their >confirmatory statements also made from memory after the event? Most spoke with their parents. Many of the parents were not as nurturing or receptive to the child's fright as mine were. Some responded with anger and with beatings. Ain't that great? >To reiterate Dennis Stacy's question: why do none of these >experiences appear in the contemporary literature in the forties >and fifties or earlier? If they were taking place _before_ the >UFO concept became commonplace, they would not be open to the >kind of ridicule which is allegedly shown to people who report >similar events today First of all, I said nothing in my writings about earlier than the 40's. I speak (for the most part) of the mid 40's... anything from 1942 to 1947. This is my time and I am only interested (for the moment) in this time frame. I was born in 1943. Secondly, I distinctly recall telling my parents that I was taken away in an ambulance, to a hospital in the sky, by little doctors with big heads and large eyes... you know the line by now, eh? What the hell do you expect a parent of a two or three year old child, during the Second World War, to do? During those days, psychiatry for the blue collar workers approaching middle class, was not among the choices. Not in my neighborhood anyway. Put yourself in those times if you can. If not, ask people my age what they imagine their parents would have done. Handle it. By themselves unless the problem became the child, and not his or her "dreams." Parenting was different in those days. Parents handled their children's problems differently, to the exclusion of psychiatry unless it was a really serious nutcase kid on thier hands. Dreams, even bad dreams, were not considered as such. And those parents who nurtured their children were for the most part, able to handle the situation, in my opinion. Which is why some of us are able to handle their memories a bit better than others. <snip> John, you wrote: >>And that'll be a good thing will it? We'll at last be able to >>tell kids, "It's OK junior, mummy knows whats happening. You're >>not just having nasty dreams, you _really_are_ being abducted by >>creatures with supernatural powers, and there's absolutely >>nothing that daddy or I can do about it". What a relief that'll >>be! >I don't understand why you think this is an exaggeration. Wonderful, John. So I suppose that if you were that parent, you would tell your child the same thing you wrote above, eh? Then I should not carry this debate further, as you are more Grippled than you accuse me of being. You _are_ exaggerating, pal. Of course, that'd be my opinion. >What >would _you_ suggest parents told children who had such >frightening experiences and came to them for reassurance? What >did your parents tell you? They listened, as I calmned down from hysteria and obvious fright, they told me that I was merely having a nightmare. I can never, ever forget their love and understanding, which seemed even at that tender age, to be dichotomous. They always looked at each other when they said those soothing words. As if they understood something that they did not wish to demonstrate to me. As it turns out, and for the majority of my experiences as a very young person, they were there at the time. They were so afraid of people coming into the house, and of my explanations of my own experiences, that from age 2 thru about 4, I slept with them. This is the way they wanted it. Of course, it did not help. I found out, much later in life, that my mother and my dad, experienced a number of strange events in their own life together even before I came on the scene. I will not discuss these on this venue. I will discuss them in another venue. >>I've read many of your posts. Why are you so dead set against >>the possibility? If it were some other people on this list, I >>would accuse you of being afraid of the possibility. That cannot >>be you, can it? >What possibility do you mean? The possibility that young >children are being tortured and abused by some alien force >beyond our current understanding? Tortured? In a way, yes. Abused? Yes, indeed. And just as you described the rest. Yes. One may select his words in various ways so as to make his point. Your point, is to exaggerate and be sarcastic. Again, that's my opinion. To be truthful, I _was_ tortured as a child. The details have sporadically appeared here on UpDates. Read the archives. Or don't. Stay in your world if it pleases you. My personal suggestion would be to open your mind to other paradigms as having a possibility in this life. Or don't. I don't much care. But I will respond to the best of my ability when challenged. >>So wussup wit yous, Yo. Just want to make sure I am in the >>proper time line. >Oh dear, is this the start of some gripple-type humour? Oh dear, muss be. And by the way, if you choose to read any of my posts, then you will on occasion, more or less, get my attempt at humor. It's just my way of dealing with people who are so pig headed as to make me crazy in the head. I suppose you prefer the truth in lieu of a giggle? You just got it. Jim Mortellaro ... BTW, it's spelled, "G.E.S.U.N.D.T."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 31 UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Hart - Hart From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 13:20:26 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 20:11:22 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Hart - Hart >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 15:55:35 -0400 >From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Open Letter To Elizabeth And Hart >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> To Ann, John V. and others, I'm sending my JC report to several destinations for review. That in itself is a large task, especially for someone like myself who works 58 hours a week forced overtime. Patience is in order. I'm confident that others I'm working with have the highest regard for all persons involved in John Carpenter's sale of files. Has John answered your note to enable identification of even the other 50 persons whose names we don't know from the list of 140? MUFON could set itself up to do this in confidence if they are determined to see the situation resolved properly. MUFON can and should be involved. Their efforts could demonstrate a new, positive model for responsible communication within the UFO community. We should expect ethical and professional conduct from officers of all UFO organizations as their conduct reflects on all of us whatever our individual positions may be. Therefore the message here is: I'm doing as much as possible to see this problem get resolved. It will take months. Most of the work must be done in person here in the midwest-not by email. It is of concern to me, an embarrassment actually, to think that MUFON's Abduction Transcription Project may have been compromised by unprofessional or unethical conduct of those involved. I emphasize the word "may" as nothing is sure until this is looked into further. Just the thought of this possibility crosses my line of conscience, sensibility and professional conduct. If all this constitutes a witch hunt, then someone isn't getting the message. The reason that mainstream media and science professionals don't take us seriously is_us_, not them. If we do not act ethically or professionally and do not ferret out wrongdoing as every other group or constituency must do then we will be treated as we are. Don't bother to expect more. MUFON convened an ethics review committee to look at my report. Since MUFON is not really designed to be an organization that is either public or even member responsive there is no defined way that the MUFON board can communicate with me except by a note from John Schuessler from time-to-time. I was told by a State Director shortly after becoming a member that my membership bought a subscription to the MUFON Journal and that's it: no access to incoming reports, no Field Investigator training if they didn't want it (they didn't) and no ability for a member to have a positive influence on decision-making. None of my dealings with MUFON this past year would lead me to say anything more positive about the relationship MUFON has with it's "members". MUFON's members, the general public, the news media and science professionals are talked to, not communicated with. No wonder they don't listen. I hope my efforts can start a basic change in thinking. It is about time. If not, then MUFON may be on it's way to becoming an anachronism. Regards, Gary Hart
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 31 UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Mulvey From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 14:22:10 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 20:08:53 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Mulvey Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 21:54:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Subject: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Mulvey To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:48:41 -0400 >>From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 14:16:22 -0400 (EDT) >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>>Subject: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Hi Jim, >>>Actually the proper word is "Grippled!" But thank you for at >>>least recognizing it for what it is. Some folks around these >>>here parts think it is something else... stupid... insincere... >>>damaging... and etc. Far from it. >>Oh. <g> I remember it as Gripple. I haven't been back here long >>enough to know the situation[s] that you're referring to, but I >>do know that sometimes good intentions aren't enough. Even >>those with good intentions>get kicked in the *ss ;) >>>I like to twist the truth around so people can face it squarely >>>in their kissers. Sometimes seeing it from the satirical point >>>of view helps the understanding glands work better. >>Satire is a tricky thing. It often flops on it's face when >>applied to those situations where emotions are invested. >>Otherwise, it can be good clean fun.<g> >>>I understand you and your intentions quite clearly. But look, >>>since this crappola began, finger pointing has rotated around >>>faster than one of those Astronaut testing thingies, you know, >>>the ones what make the lips of the astronaut pull>back from the >>>gravity drenching? >>>It almost looks terribly funny. >>But in reality Jim, it's not funny. It's only terrible. >><snip> >>>Good Lord, Ann. This is ridiculous. >>That's a rather odd choice of words given the gravity and >>ramifications of this whole mess. >>>There is no doubt over the fact that wrong has been done to >>>some folks. But cheeses, who the hell gave _anyone_ the right >>>to point, criticize and literally attempt to destroy the >>>players here? And especially as the facts in this case are >>>really _not_ known. >>Here's a fact: Carpenter sold 140 abductee files over three >>years ago. >>Here's another fact: 120 or more of those families still don't >>know. >>Since I'm not aware of your efforts to help these families get >>_their truth_ I'm going to have to remain unimpressed with what >>appears to be an excerpt from Miss Manners suggested behaviors >>during situations of outrage. >><snip> >>>I think the time for finger pointing has ceased. The time is >>>now for the players, the holders of the information to do what >>>is right. And spreading this list around is, in my personal >>>opinion, silly. >>The time has always been for the players holding the information >>to do the right thing. Note that hasn't happened. If you >>carefully read what was being suggested, you wouldn't be >>trivializing that suggestion as 'spreading the list around'. >><snip> >>>What I have witnessed is not proper legal procedure. Rather, I >>>am witnessing a lynch mob. And frankly, it does not sit well on >>>my digestion. >>Since when is this list bound by proper legal procedure? >>I'm sorry that your digestion has been upset by what you view as >>a 'lynch mob', but as an abductee, I'm a bit stunned that your >>digestion hasn't been more negatively affected by the treatement >>of those 120 families. Those of us who have taken the time to >>express opinions [and shockingly get pissed off when lied too - >>horror!!] are doing so because we care about the abductee >>community. >>I really don't understand where you're coming from. The Jim >>Mortellaro that I remember from a couple of years ago, would be >>in the thick of it pushing to get those families notified, >>rather than sitting back in judgment of those who are rightfully >>outraged that these people remain ignorant. That's the guy I >>wrote to. I'm not sure who you are.<g> >No Ann. I do not judge you or those who are outraged. I am >simply not fond of flaming before all the facts are in. And I am >quite certain all the facts are not in as yet. >><snip> >>>I still love you. >>Even now?. ;) >Hi Ann and Everyone, Hi Jim, >Yup. Even now, and especially now. I very much admire your >strength and passion. But I've have seen so many people get >reamed up one side and down the other over the years, that it >just gets me angry to see it happen over and over again. I read >some really damnably damaging flaming here. I see people attempt >to hurt others with posts. With words. And I don't like it when >that happens. No one here is a judge and/or a jury. Not to sound too dramatic, but this situation has given us all, in varying degree, an A Bomb to hold in our laps. I'm not particularly fond of word flames either, but in a situation like this, where emotions are running so high and when people have such very emotional investments at risk, flames are to be expected. >You know something? I am satisfied that the information got out. >I am happy that some of you have embraced this issue and taken >it to another level. I do not deny you the right to say what >you've said. You ask where I am coming from? OK. I don't like it >when people get flamed. Here or anywhere else. Even when and if >they have done wrong. During the past 5+ years, I've seen flames in CS UFO engulf over discussions from alleged evidence over a sighting to when 'truth peddlers' pop in to share their slice of reality, offering nothing but cries of 'debunkery!' when anybody dares to question. Both situations were highly volatile and got uglier before an improvement. Neither situation held a candle to the emotional spectrums of the one we're discussing here. IOW, the flames aren't pretty, but they're part of this biz and, from time to time, provide a good system of checks, balances and boundaries - which imo we can never have enough of in Ufology. Having said that, until those ~120 families know what's happened to their trust and their files, imo, this information isn't really out. >And I do believe that the place where this must be adjudicated >is the courts. No one is gonna solve the problem here, or be >able to force or otherwise coerce the players to do what they do >not want to do or will not do. Now is the time to take it thru >the legal system. A good lawyer is needed. Now. >Someone should be working on getting an attorney to take this >on. The same people I tried to engage when I was associated with >IF have been contacted. I've asked that they take the case. So >far, I've not gotten a yes or no. I honestly wish to God I had >the money. I would pay my attorneys to take this on. But alas, I >do not. >I have done nothing to help the situation on this list except to >intervene when the flames got high ... too high. The only thing >I've done is try to get some free legal help. Your efforts are to be admired. Free legal help is important, however if those families remain ignorant that their files have been sold, there won't be anybody to use the free legal help. >And I take no sides except to press those with the information >to do the right thing. I don't deny that people have been hurt. >If it had been me, I would be in court by now. Trust me on that. >But you know, Ann, many of those 120 don't even know they've >been had. I am not certain how that should be done and who >should do it. This can be a terribly complex thing with some >abductees. I know two who would likely go berserk with this. I >know them. I know how they would react. And in their cases >exclusively, I would not recommend informing them with some >peice of paper or email. I would rather a shrink contact them, >or a good researcher with a reputation and a heart. These people >are very sensitive about their experiences getting out in the >world. Knowing their situation, I don't blame them. How many >others would have a similar reaction. One of the folks I know >would easily consider ending his/her life over this. We are a >sensitive group with very special needs most of the time. Great >caution must be taken with many of us. Who here is in a position >to take on this terrible responsibility? Who is prepared and >informed enough with the cases, individually, to properly broach >this subject, and tailor the manner in which it is done to the >individual and special needs of these super senitive people? Not >me, Ann. And not you. Not John or John or any of the players. You're right to voice the concerns regarding the seriousness of this blow to those families. However, that alone, can't stop these families from learning the truth. Potential extreme reactions can be anticipated and worked into whatever plan there is to contact those families. As for who is responsible to take this on - the man himself: John Carpenter. Ultimately notifying these folks has to fall on him. Maybe he'll need help with locating families [see my post to him] and can get that from Mr. Bigelow's employees who have already signed a confidentiality clause when they were hired. The responsibility can't be left any longer because it's difficult or uncomfortable. >I love you for what you've done. I mean that. But this is too >tenuous a subject for many abductees to just simply notify them. >When Hart made a similar statement, I immediately identified >with it and it made sense to me. Jim, for over three years, these famlies hung in the wind. Nobody felt they were accountable to them. Carptenter sure didn't. Bigelow didn't. Since Carpenter has been on this list as of late, I've seen only thinly veiled excuses, not real accountability. Bigelow sure doesn't feel any accountability to this community or to those families. Somebody has to - regardless of the degree of difficulty, >Sorry if I've disappointed you. But I too have been very >disappointed with a few folks here. Present company excluded, >I've seen one or two of this list take liberties which are not >in their venue or pervue. My comments are directed at them. Not >at you. Well, you're starting to come back closer to the Jim I remember.<g> As for disappointment - heck, we've all been there. It's part of this biz as it mirrors a bickering family with the poliitcs changing every 20 minutes. People don't like you. People don't like me. We don't like them. yada yada yada. The beat goes on. I don't mean to minimize your disappointment or issues with individuals, but I do want to make a very strong point. History tells us that John Carpenter does not feel he is being held accountable for those families remaining ignorant of his sale of their files. History tells us that Robert Bigelow believes his accountability ended when he handed over the money with the remaining issues being akin to a fly buzzing in an auditorium. Neither men have shown us that they feel any accountability towards this community. Ya know what Jim? By God, they had better! We as a community need to make that message crystal clear. We all need to put whatever differences we may have with each other aside for the moment and as a community, insist that these families be notified. FWIW, I would gladly stand alongside my biggest critics [and there are plenty!] to get this message across. I'm not saying that to come across as Saint Ann<g>, but rather to illustrate the importance of this issue. Politics, position, agendas, and egos can't matter right now. Doing the right thing has to be #1. If we don't rally on this Jim, we might as well hold our heads in shame, because it will mean that those in Ufology are unwilling to enforce the most basic human standards of respect and decency that the truth, however painful, embraces. <snip> >Love and respect, but not for all of yous... Jim, I'm not asking for a lovefest here. I'm asking that everybody not just you, but everybody even the remote 'hobbiest'<g> put aside the squabbles and personal agendas long enough to make an ethical stand and statement for those families to finally learn the truth. [see my response to JC] If anybody is thinking my posting will make a difference - they're wrong. I'm one nobody. This message needs to come from all of us. Take care and thanks, Ann
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 31 UpDate: Re: Ufological Code of Conduct - [US] - Hart From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 13:40:40 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 20:19:53 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Ufological Code of Conduct - [US] - Hart >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 14:32:36 -0700 >From: Jim Klotz <jklotz77@foxinternet.net> >Subject: Ufological Code of Conduct - [US] >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >* - Please forward to other lists and interested parties - * >Dear UpDates list members, >Recently when I published our draft of a Ufological Code of >Conduct, I expected more comment and input than I received. >Frankly, I'm baffled. This is something about which I thought >most folks would at least have an opinion, especially during the >current uproar over transgressions (real or perceived.) >I have now posted the draft at: ><http://www.cufon.org/standards/draftcode.htm> >Thanks, we are looking forward to your input. >Jim Klotz >CUFON SYSOP Jim, Thank you for posting this new Code of Conduct and thanks to all who helped write it. It is excellent and everyone in Ufology should read and follow it. We should hold all UFO organization officers, board members and members to this code. These use of these standards must become second nature for all who operate in our field of study and interaction. This is just plain old-fashion common sense. This is an opportunity for us to build a new, more professional, more ethical main-stream future. Teaching, learning and following proper standards of conduct is much preferred over investigating wrongdoing that has already occurred. Let us build a new framework of trust and cooperation within and without the UFO community. Let us build bridges to the future that are solid and strong... Regards, Gary Hart
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 31 UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Prokic From: Roger Prokic <rprokic@pobox.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 11:30:33 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 20:13:50 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Prokic >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 03:00:44 -0400 (EDT) >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:54:00 -0500 >>From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> >>Subject: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >People have said to me in the past that ufology has "struggled >along" then Robert Bigelow shows up and funds alot of projects >and research and with that money we apparently have far greater >hope (they claim) that the secret of the century will be solved. Has anyone ever speculated if Bigelow/NIDS is a CIA front (or other gov't agency)? What better person to use as a front, since he is so wealthy, no one would suspect it. --- Roger Prokic Denver, Colorado USA -=[ sent from a Palm Vx & One-Touch Mail v1.9 ]=-
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 31 UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Mulvey From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 15:13:44 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 20:17:11 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Mulvey >Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 11:49:06 -0400 >From: Katherine Hubbell <C8tlin@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: John Carpenter Responds >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 04:38:29 -0400 >>From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Re: John Carpenter Responds >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 11:24:48 -0400 (EDT) >>>From: John Carpenter <StarmanJC@aol.com >>>Subject: Re: John Carpenter Responds >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>>Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:13:36 -0400 >>>>From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >>>>Subject: Re: John Carpenter Responds >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>John, >>>>Can you please tell this list if you intend to notify the 120 >>>>families who have remained ignorant for over three years that >>>>you have sold their abduction files? >>>>We all await your response. >>>Dear Ann, >>>I do not have any problem with doing so, other than the fact >>>that over the past 12 years most people have moved and I have >>>not been in contact with them for a very long time. That is not >>>an excuse but just a fact of real life. Many people do not stay >>>at the same address for 12 years. That project did not involve >>>anybody that I've worked with in the past 5 years, so nobody >>>would be a recent contact. >>>John >>Hi John, >>It sounds to me like you could use the help of somebody with the >>resources to locate these people. How about Robert Bigelow? >>Would you be opposed to contacting Mr. Bigelow and asking him to >>provide the resources to locate those families which you are >>unable to contact? >>Mr. Bigelow is already aware that this community holds him >>partially responsible for these families remaining ignorant >>after all these years, so hopefully he'll immediately understand >>your request and the urgency of the matter now. With his >>resources, pulling those files out of the closet [irony alert] >>and having a couple of staff, who are bound by an employee >>confidentiality clause, work on it steadily - that information >>might very well be available to you in a matter of a few days. >>As for how you planned on contacting these families, there has >>been some concern voiced by this community regarding extreme >>reactions. It may well be in everyone's best interest if you >>could also discuss with Mr. Bigelow the possibility of having a >>therapist available should the need arise - free of charge of >>course, to the abductee/family. >>If this plan doesn't appeal to you, feel free to come up with >>another, but come up with something. Given the resources of the >>information superhighway, and that failing, what Mr. Bigelow has >>at his disposal, the reasoning behind your inability to locate >>families who have moved, to tell them the truth, is negated. >>You've put us all in a very uncomfortable position John. See, >>your actions tell us that during the past 3+ years, you never >>felt accountable to tell these people, who trusted you, about >>the sale of these files. Now somebody like me, who is a nobody >>to you, is telling you that you are accountable John. That's a >>fact of real life. >>Keep us posted. >Hi Ann, >I am continually amazed by Mr. Carpenter's reluctance to be a >stand-up guy and take responsibility for his actions. This whole >thing reads like a two-year-old getting caught with his hand in >a cookie jar and trying to talk his way out of it. >The individuals whose files were sold need to know and they need >to know as soon as possible. The "they moved" excuse just >doesn't wash with me. Hasn't Mr. Carpenter ever heard of >directory assistance? What are the odds that those who moved >moved to another state or another city? Pretty slim. >The longer this continues, the more damage is done to abductees >everywhere. Hi Katherine, It's impossible for this damage to be isolated to the abductee community alone. The situation that John Carpenter created in not notifying those families prior to the sale, and the fact that the lack of notification remains 3+ years later with very little pressure being placed to change this, makes a strong statement to the greater Ufology community, as well as anybody looking in from the outside: "Hey!! It's ok to act unethically towards the most vulnerable members of our community - even if they're kids! We'll squirm a bit, secretly complain about those few who are most vocal, but don't worry - we won't take a stand to stop this from continuing nor will we stop it from happening again. If this effects me on any level, it's too uncomfortable to face, and if it doesn't, I don't give a sh*t because it's not about me! Go ahead - chew them up and spit them out! They're all yours!!!" The above might be somewhat of a dramatic illustration, but I don't think it's too far off the mark, should the number of folks on this discussion list insisting that these families be told the truth, remain in the single digits. Thanks for your post. Ann
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 31 UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Brigham From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 15:01:36 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 20:18:51 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files - Brigham >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:54:00 -0500 >From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com> >Subject: Re: Carpenter/Bigelow/Abductees' Files >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >So this whole thing about private information being compromised, >we now find out, is based on allegations made by John >Carpenter's ex-wife that came out as a result of an ugly >divorce. Tim, Are you only accepting the defendant's (John's) opinion or looking at the facts. Several hundred pages of evidence represents evidence from many sources and viewpoints. Wake up and smell the coffee. ~Gary
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 31 UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Kippenberger From: Corky Kippenberger <KIPPENBERGER@cs.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 17:12:00 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 20:48:04 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: John Carpenter Responds - Kippenberger >Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 11:24:48 -0400 (EDT) >From: John Carpenter <StarmanJC@aol.com> >Subject: Re: John Carpenter Responds >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 16:13:36 -0400 >>From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Re: John Carpenter Responds >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 00:23:09 -0400 (EDT) >>>From: John Carpenter <StarmanJC@aol.com> >>>Subject: Re: John Carpenter Responds >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca John, Sorry, but in this information age there is no excuse for not trying to find these people. You should look at the internet for direction. Have your tried? Most anyone can be found in this country these days and I'll bet that you even have social security numbers for the people on that list. You could find many of them without that, anyway. Unfortunately you are in a situation where you'll have to find time for this work yourself, since I would hope that you won't distribute those names to anyone, and I seriously doubt that NIDS or Bigelow is interested in helping you or the abductees on your list out of this situation. Have you even tried to contact anyone on that list? Corky Kippenberger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 31 UpDate: Re: Spacenapping - Beaver From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 14:22:32 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 20:53:42 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Spacenapping - Beaver >Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 01:16:50 +0100 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >Subject: Re: Spacenapping >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >I am not suggesting there is a straight choice between literal >physical reality of the abduction experience and all in the mind >type hallucinations without real cause. Indeed the evidence >struggles to accommodate all nuances of this complex and >confusing phenomenon as I have often recognised in my writing. >That is why it is so fascinating. Dear Jenny: Yet in both that and this post, despite your extensive parapsychology research you still cling to the notion that science will be able to eventually _study_ the phenomena under a microscope. You continually discard, both there and here, the mystical truth, that all is connected, and all the other ramifications that come with this understanding. >I was simply warning that with all seemingly persuasive evidence >there are several ways to look at it. We have to approach this >subject primarily through the science that we know and only move >into areas of new science when there is no other reasonable >choice. Incorrect. The mystics have been delving into the mystical realms for thousands of years before modern man has come along with his puny science and tried to quantify everything into (just as the religionists do) human centered phenomena. This is why most scientists are anti-UFO or anti-ET. It's because, like the culture at large, they bought into the not so ancient stupidity that power mongering dogmatic church creators foisted upon society. It's the notion that we are the center of everything, the only thing that exists. And some scientists actually believe their notions are different from the religionists. What a crock. When the 2 hemispheres of the brain are entrained to where they work as 1 instead of 2 brains, as in the laying on of hands or in meditation/yoga one begins to experience the start of samadhi (focus). I won't go into a long speel concerning the nature of higher mind states nor the history of scientists hooking up certain devoted meditators to verify the reality of such higher states. But I will suffice to say that they spoke long ago of the nature of reality that is just now being barely glimpsed by quantum physics. Science, as you rightly know, is catching up with what the mystic has perceived long ago. It is behind and not ahead as most scientifically minded people presume. This means initially evaluating the data in terms of the >options that science provides and seeing if a good match occurs >for them. See above. Because scientists can _never_ hope to put God/It into a box you wish to keep holding onto the notion that they will one day succeed in the impossible? >Yes, it is arguable that some close encounters involve non >physical realities. I have certainly considered that area in my >work - through books such as 'Star Children'. But it is very >difficult to evaluate such things and reach conclusions that >lead anywhere beyond speculation and I think it is not proper to >assume them to be more than possibilities (which they clearly >are) in the absence of overwhelming evidence. Because you cannot put them in a box you will instead choose to deny their reality? OK. Your choice. Not mine. >And it really >behooves us to take this very significant exploration of strange >phenomenon carefully, one step at a time, eliminating the >physical and known phenomena that it is possible to eliminate by >way of experimentation, data collection and proven knowledge. Not me. I go warp speed. Or is it worp speed? Go slow, be careful. It doesn't exist. That's why they black out all the documents to hide from you that which doesn't exist. >This is important simply because of the potential significance >of both the answers we seek and the questions we pose. Hasty >decisions lead to hasty conclusions and these often in turn >provoke false beliefs that can last for centuries. I never said I understood the nature of GOD or spirit. Indeed, if you read 2 or 3 hundred books on mysticism (as I did in the beginning of my search), the nature of God and how absolutely devoted individuals throughout history have spent almost their entire lives trying to become one with the creator (something all religionists abhor) then you would (and probably already do) know that that which is the nature of both the creator and the created is not only infinitely beyond science to quantify but also beyond the ability of the human mind to either comprehend or to verbalize effectively in any way whatsoever. This is agreed by _all_ true mystics, both Christian and non- Christian ones. Don't wait for science to quantify what it can't possibly even begin to comprehend even in a small insignificant way. >To this end we can seek patterns in data. We can note the >profile of witnesses, their psychological background etc. We can >look for cases that test objective reality - such as observed >abductions. And we can seek anything non terrestrial (ET DNA, >genuinely new knowledge beyond current human comprehension >etc). And we can from that make reasoned value judgements as to >how well the scientifically testable theories succeed (or fail). And you can also, like most in this field, continue to deny the validity of that which is collected; like the implants that Roger Lier was supposed to have removed from the abductees. Such physical evidence can be denied and smeared as much as less credible evidence also. The man I mentioned before who went insane after his encounter had a similar mind state as what you are putting forth that we all should possess. It is the same with the person who committed suicide. Indeed that notion that we must deny the bizarre because we can't quantify it isn't too far off of a good observation of my own mind state both before and after my first, quite lengthy, close encounter. Not really being able to believe in that which the mind cannot accept, primarily because of our sociological conditioning, is, by far, the current primary psychological paradigm. That is why you propose it to be what we should stick with. It is a quick road to an insanity that will wash over this planet (in many who possess it) should contact full arise. >That's where we stand, I believe. Which is not at all to say that >we may not need more esoteric interpretations to explain the sum >total of data in the final analysis. But because such ideas are >intrinsically beyond our ken and almost impossible to >prove/disprove, accepting them as the answer is in truth little >better than admitting defeat and agreeing that the phenomenon is >insoluble. No. Just admit that it won't go under a scientific microscope. The more we understand the more questions come up. The more you try to put it into a box the less proximity you will have to the truth of what it is. >That may end up being the way of it - but for me it >makes sense to explore what we are scientifically able to >explore first. The tip of the tip of the tip of the tip of the iceberg won't really give you a very accurate view of the whole. >We are a long way from exhausting the possible >areas of research here or disproving the more rational >alternatives. Until we do stepping into the great beyond is a >needless extravagance. Rational, as I said before, doesn't include only physcical/hallucinatory. Spirit, though it has been mistakenly linked to non-rational ideologies is quite provable in many ways if you think back to your on rational research. >>Remember, hallucinations >>are false and have no real connection with actual external >>phenomena. >Well, not really. Hallucinations are phenomena within perception >- imagery that is internally generated. In truth all of our >perception of the world is an hallucination because it depends >upon internally generated imagery that reflects sensory >stimuli. That's exactly how we 'see' the universe, creating >experience by mixing physical sensations with mental processes >and even belief systems. Its how we see a cat sat on a mat. Its >also how we see an alien sat on a UFO. There really is not much >difference. Because you can point to physical triggers for normal hallucinations doesn't, properly, explain away precognitive visions and infinite numbers of other paranormal phenomena that ALL point to spirit and non-rational/physical sources for much of this. My own hypnotherapy research into inter-life experiences, that occur between physical incarnations, like Michael Newton's 20 years of same, points to the same notion that Robert Monroe, totally steeped in research of a scientific nature, put forth in his final, and best book, "The Ultimate Journey," that the other planes, realities of spirit can be as physical as this one. We create these at will over there. And they are lasting even when we leave that place, not predicated on the mind's power to hold them in place. This is just one example of how our thoughts about reality are so far from the truth that science will be catching up with the spirit's mystical abilities to pierce these truths for some time to come. >Perception is a vastly complex area and Ufology is one of the >best sources of information about it - sadly neglected by most >of the specialists in this field who are unaware of the treasure >trove it provides. I do agree that at the heart of the close >encounter may lie clues to questions as significant as how we >see, how we feel, how we think and the essence of reality. I'm glad you are finally agreeing with me here. >Its possible we will learn about alien contact too. But I think >its rather more likely that we will discover things about our >own inner space and that, indeed, in the long run that will be >of much greater benefit to mankind. Now you are finally getting mystical on me. The truth has arrisen within you as I knew it would. It was just a matter of time before, like the mystic, that you realized that all is one. There is no seperation, and never will be. Sincerely; Mike Beaver yoda@foxinternet.net http://web3.foxinternet.net/yoda/index.html ICQ # 15482206
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 31 UpDate: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 17:38:07 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 20:55:54 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! - Balaskas >Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 16:54:11 -0400 (EDT) >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 10:56:09 -0500 (CDT) >>From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net> >>Subject: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:21:48 -0700 >>>From: SMiles Lewis <elfis@austin.rr.com> >>>Subject: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt Proposal - Again! >>>To: UFO UpDates <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>I've been wondering... what is the status of the Dust Bunny >>>Hunt? I sent my sample. Did others send samples? >>>Please give us an update; were there not enuf respondants? Did >>>you not find anything? Have you not had a chance to scope out >>>the dust under the microscope? >>I also sent mine in too, and I'm also curious about results or >>lack thereof. >Damn! I was wondering what happened with them little critters >myself. Greetings SMiles, Brian, Jim and everyone. First let me assure everyone that I have acknowledged all the "dust bunny" packages I have received with John Velez and everything, including all my notes, test results, photos, etc. accumulated so far are still here with me. Anything of a personal nature is being kept strictly confidential (no other researchers are given the names or addresses of the the individuals whose samples are being examined) and nothing has been sold to serious UFO physical evidence collectors from Nevada or elsewhere either. ;o) It is my understanding that the "dust bunny" findings will be forwarded directly to John, since it was he who initiated this project, and I will continue to periodically keep him informed of our progress. We had a slow start waiting for some participants to send me their dust samples. Thanks again to everyone that did. With the large quantity of dust we now have, it will take some time to carefully examine and document it all but I hope to have preliminary results available soon. Yes, as John Velez briefly mentioned recently on 'Strange Days... Indeed' (Errol Bruce-Knapp's radio program on UFOs), many strange and unusual things have been observed and noted in some of the samples, but this was not unexpected considering that we are examining a microscopic universe under very high magnifications which can be very unfamiliar even to researchers who use microscopes in their work. I have informed John that I too will be taking my annual vacation in August and it will probably be sometime in the Fall before I have anything new to report on the "dust bunny" project. You may all be interested to know that I plan to visit eastern Turkey to directly examine wood from a huge and relatively intact vessel on a mountain which two very reliable sources inform me is Noah's Ark - no kidding. Wouldn't it be a riot if this turns out to be true? SMiles, Brian, Jim and everyone else including myself would all be directly related to each other as cousins. Depending on what exactly we find, we may decide to expand the dust bunny project or perform specific scientific tests on "dust bunny" artifacts that warrant it. Nick Balaskas
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 31 UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 2 [Waves] - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 16:00:48 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 20:57:48 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 2 [Waves] - Hatch >Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 00:14:18 -0400 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 2 [Waves] >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 03:55:27 -0700 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >>Subject: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 2 [Waves] >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Dear Sirs and Mmes: >>This is the second installment of my sunspots study; this time >>how they correspond (or don't) to UFO waves. ><snip> >Thanks for all your work on statistics. >Too bad there's no correlation. I guess the Klingon Cloaking >device also shields from nasty solar radiation as well! Hi Bruce! I must have left the wrong impression. I believe I said that there is no "significant" correlation, one that would make a mathematician take notice (my armchair estimate of course.) Actually, there is a slight numerical bias towards UFOs appearing during non-sunspot months, as arbitrarily defined here as having monthly SS counts below 65. 10922 events listed for the study period (1940-1975 inclusive) of 432 months, gives a mean average of 25.28 events per month. Applying that ratio to the 239 "low" sunspot months I counted, one would expect 6042 events. Instead I find 6214 events, 172 listings more than expected. The raw number, which initially catches my eye, is actually a small percentage: 172/6042 = only 2.846% I wouldn't take numbers like that into a mathematical courtroom, but I must note at least a small seeming avoidance of periods of severe radiation effects associated with sunspots. Conversely, the data is inconsistent with "earthlights", auroras and similar theories which attempt to explain UFO sightings as resulting from natural phenomena. If that theory held water, any bias would show a drop, not a rise in sightings, when the Sun is "quiet". The only disagreement, if there is any disagreement at all, is the level of significance one might attach to a roughly 3% deviation from "pure chance". For that, I must defer to the mathematicians. Frankly, I would prefer that it were "significant", implying that I did not waste a lot of time and effort. I hope this clarifies things a bit. Very best wishes - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 31 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Brookesmith From: Brookesmith Duke of Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 19:14:54 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 21:03:25 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Brookesmith Compliments of the Duke, feeling quite encouraged here. (I think I'll stop when I'm ready, and it ain't yet.) >Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 09:01:35 +0100 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 23:10:44 -0400 >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Rimmer >>To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> Just to add my two pees' worth to John Rimmer's answer to this one. Greg wrote: >>I'll repeat my mantra of a few days ago (slightly >>changed): >>I think it would be helpful if abduction skeptics >>would include actual facts in their critiques. >>(Facts, that is, about specific abduction cases.) I myself think it would be helpful if abduction believers and defenders could offer anyone any sure-fire facts about abductions in the first place. All that we know about any specific claimed "abduction" is that someone went to someone else and told them a story, and in some cases a whole pile of stories. Beyond that, what? Why does the name Cortizone of Napoli spring unbidden into my mind? Or the word "Allagash"? Or the name "Boylan", or is that -- delicate sensibilities being in question on this List -- "Trondant"? "Hayley" and "Carpenter" come faintly to the nostrils too. Now the vision begins to fade entirely ... An unexplained phenomenon if ever there was one. Very often, the questions skeptics ask about "abductions" are based on the internal (in)consistencies of such people's stories. This activity has been derided by an obscure Minnesota journalist as "literary criticism" but, whether you believe in abductions or not, that is the currency in which you inescapably trade -- unless, of course, you are yourself claiming to be an abductee. Given the lack of indisputable facts about "abductions", we might do our children the favor of sticking to the few facts we do know, and not encouraging them to fantasize unhappily over possible fictions. Why Greg cannot understand this simple, protective point, whose importance overrides that of any "information" gained by doing otherwise, continues to baffle me. John, incidentally, has spoken to many an abductee. His book on the subject was a pioneer in the field. I know some other nice things about him too, but do not wish to draw his attention to me, lest he encourage others. best wishes Pyjamabottom D. Manquiduvet Man In England, Now Abed
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 31 UpDate: Re: Bush 'Statement'On CNN? - Hale From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 01:32:12 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:45:32 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Bush 'Statement'On CNN? - Hale Steve Bassett wrote: >>Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 23:58:07 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Steve Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com> >>Subject: Bush 'Statement'On CNN? >>To: updates@sympatico.ca > PRG > Paradigm Research Group >>I received an email that George W. Bush had stated on a CNN >>broadcast today, around 8:15 pm EST, that if elected, he would >>release important UFO data. >>Can anyone confirm this? >>Steve Bassett Hi, I can confirm that George Bush Jnr will carry on like all the other wannabe presidents, and will make the same old UFO promise of data release so he can get into power and then forget about ever mentioning it! The same ol same ol! Roy..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 31 UpDate: Re: Joe Public Keep UFO Footage Secret! - Hale From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 01:57:05 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:47:50 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Joe Public Keep UFO Footage Secret! - Hale >Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 14:53:11 -0400 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Joe Public Keep UFO Footage Secret! >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >So, this bloke then... how did he know tench actually existed? >Come to think of it, how did you? >I don't want to go on about this contentious video but these >facts really do matter. >Happy Trails >Andy Hello Andy, Let me ask you a question Andy. You disbelieve in UFOs being of Alien Origin correct? Have you ever sold books at any lecture which promote the Alien UFO theory, and if so why - surely this would be against your principles of thinking on the subject? And video evidence, yes it's out there and hopefully kept out there. Happier Trails, Roy.. Keep Smiling...
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 31 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Bowden From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 23:50:57 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:51:14 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Bowden >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 23:32:34 -0400 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:29:48 -0700 >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Greg, Serge and all, >>Every time I read on the subject of abduction and I see a poster >>put his destiny in the hands of some sanctified researcher, I >>start biting my nails in despair. My worst nail-biting >>experience occured a couple of years ago when I saw Bud Hopkins >>interview a 3-4 year old child in front of his devastated young >>parents. Too bad I couldn't reach into the TV set to kick >>Hopkins' ass. >Serge, >I respect the strength of your feelings about this. >But how much do you know about the case you saw on that NOVA >program? Do you know anything other than what you saw in the >short segment they showed you? Do you know what the child might >have told his parents before Budd came on the scene? Are you >sure you're not judging too quickly? >>1. A researcher without a degree in medical therapy has no >>freaking right to play with people's mind. His _only_ concern >>should be to put the people in touch with a professional. >The first assumption here is that researchers play with >abductees' minds. Could we establish the truth of that, before >referring to it as some kind of certainty? For those of you who may not have seen the NOVA program Budd Hopkins pretty much established the above all on his own. Budd Hopkins had invited the cameras to witness one of his investigations. This was the first time he'd met these people. After speaking to the parents he showed a set of picture cards to their child and asked which ones he recognized. When shown the picture of the alien the child quite clearly said he didn't know that one. So Budd tries it again, this time he asks which one is good and which one is bad. Only two choices, should have been three 'good, bad or don't know'. When they again get to the alien card the child says "bad", he could just have easily said 'good', makes no difference. Budd then focuses the child's attention on the alien card asking him why he says that ones bad. The child starts to make up a little story as kids of that age do. Of course by now the previously unknown alien image is being fixed in the youngsters mind. We finally see Budd leaving the house convinced that the whole family are being abducted by space aliens. I thought it was an appalling thing to do, especially to a little kid. Dave.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 31 UpDate: Re: Spacenapping - Hale From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 02:08:18 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:53:12 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Spacenapping - Hale >Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 01:16:50 +0100 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >Subject: Re: Spacenapping >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Hi, >I do appreciate the length to which you have gone to try to >impress upon me things that, although you would not know this, I >do understand. >I am not suggesting there is a straight choice between literal >physical reality of the abduction experience and all in the mind >type hallucinations without real cause. Indeed the evidence >struggles to accommodate all nuances of this complex and >confusing phenomenon as I have often recognised in my writing. >That is why it is so fascinating. Hi, Surely Jenny you can rule out Alien abducting people from where you stand, because you don't actually think Aliens exist' or are coming to this planet in any way shape or form? So it must be in the mind, no? Roy..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 31 UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 1 - Rutkowski From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 20:37:00 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:55:45 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 1 - Rutkowski >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@JPS.NET> >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 03:09:46 -0700 >Subject: UpDate: Sunspots and UFOs: Part 1 >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Hello all: >As promised (or threatened) I finally got some preliminary >results from my correlation of monthly sunspot counts and UFO >sightings frequencies. >All data below are for the 36 year period from Jan 1940 to Dec >1975... a period where there is good data overlap between >sunspot.dat and the *U* Database. >First the bad news: I had hoped that either UFO sightings would >increase during sunspot maxima (possibly indicating a probable >cause) or else decrease, indicating UFO avoidance of highly >damaging solar radiation. >In fact, I found no significant difference at all! <snip> >Thus, events per month are the virtually the same regardless of >sunspot activity. Alas. Larry: This is exactly what should be expected from a sample of raw UFO case data. Since our own studies have confirmed others which found only about 3 to 5% "true unknowns", the "noise" of insufficient data cases and IFOs completely drowns out the unidentifieds. However, Persinger et al have argued that Sunspot activity is related to UFOs and other geophysical phenomena in a non-direct way. They insist that UFO sightings correlate with these other phenomena only if you use an appropriate delay. In the case of earthquakes, it can be as much as 6 months. For Sunspots, about a week. The Sunspot thing maybe makes sense because of eth transit time of particles en route. I don't buy the earthquake relationship at all. I've looked at the data, and it doesn't jive. Could you try running the data again, but this time including a week's delay (or maybe 3 days) on either side, just to please the Persinger adherents? If it still doesn't work, then Persinger's TST is yet again unsupported by the data. -- Nobody in particular
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 31 UpDate: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Laajala From: Minna Laajala - UFO-Finland <ufofinland@saunalahti.fi> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:11:45 +0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 23:02:24 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Laajala >Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 11:54:26 -0400 >From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com> >Subject: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net> >>Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:41:27 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:21:29 -0400 >>>From: Lesley Cluff <manitou@fox.nstn.ca> >>>Subject: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>There is such a big difference between sleep paralysis and >>>abduction, that I have trouble believing anyone could confuse >>>the two or even suggest the first when the second is claimed by >>>the victim. Hi Elizabeth, Hi Joseph, hi list! Abduction versus sleep paralysis ain�t a simple thing, I agree with that. I wrote an article about in Finnish, will try to translate it in English. In the meantime, I include a pile of links you may go to read, although the majority of them are familiar to you already. My opinion (which is a result of writing the forementioned article): 1) abduction-experiences aren�t always explained with sleep paralysis. 2) Some abductions are definitely sleep paralysis >>I have experienced both sleep paralysis and abduction. They are >>as different as different can be. During the "sleep paralysis" I >>was absolutley terrifed, desperatly trying to get my voice to >>work so I could get my husbands attention. Totally paralysed >>from head to toe, unable to move or speak. Finally, after what >>seemed like hours of silent screaming, my voice came back and I >>screamed so much and so loud that I ended up losing my voice for >>several days. Whoops... >>I remember the entire incident, start to finish. >>There was no one else there but my husband. I was not removed >>from my bed or taken anywhere. >>During an abduction paralysis, at least in my experience, there >>is NO fear involved at all. The "Rod" that I have seen them use >>on me brings about a state of gentle euphoria and immediatley >>takes away any fear that you might initially have had realizing >>They were there. How did you realize them beibg there? Did you see them? Did you feel any touch, etc? Could you tell more? >>You are not as completely paralysed and unable >>to move as in sleep paralysis. You are able to move your body, I >>would describe it more as "limpness" than paralysis. You are >>then kept in that state throughout the abduction, I imagine to >>make it easier to control us. Sleep paralysis isn�t always total paralysis, there�s part paralysis and whole paralysis, and meny between them. One hypothesis is, that you have "suffered" from hypocalemic periodic paralysis, which is very similar with sleep paralysis. But I�m not claiming it was 100 % sure hypocalemic periodic paralysis. >>The abject fear comes after the fact. The next day, when you >>realize something has happened. Or, if you remember bits and >>pieces, even more terror at what was done to you or what may >>have been done that you are unable to remember. This was not so >>with the sleep paralysis. I am not crippled with fear just >>remembering it as I am with abduction memories. Once it ended, >>it was over. A nasty incident, to be sure, but not one that >>fills me with dread as my abduction memories do. Funny, my abduction was a positive experiece. _If_ it was an abduction. >>Yes, Leslie, it is outragous to me that someone would say I am >>"only" suffering from sleep paralysis. Doing that denigrates all >>of the abductees out there who have spent thier whole lives >>being terrorized by this. Don't people realize that nothing >>would make us happier than to find out that we are suffering >>from some sort of physical ailment? That someone had some new >>medication that could "make it all go away"? Sleep paralysis is part of narcolepsy, as you surely know already, and is at least possible to treat to minimum, maybe to go away. >It seems to me that abductees who are looking for a way to "make >it all go away" might want to reconsider the hypothesis that >their abductions are cases of Awareness during Sleep Paralysis >[ASP] because this perspective empowers the experiencer and >makes the problem solvable for many of them. It seems, that all different "levels" of sleep paralysis aren't filed the right way. ISP and RISP aren't necessary both sleep paralysis, they might be misunderstood hypocalemic periodic paralysis and sleep paralysis. >I've done quite a lot of research in this area and, for several >years now, I've maintained a mailing list for ASP experiencers >[ASP-L@Onelist.com]. What I've found is that ASP experiencers do >take control of their experiences. Some learn to to forcibly >awakening the physical body, thus terminating the experience. >Others learn to relax and enjoy the feeling of being paralyzed. >Still others learn to use ASP as an opportunity to initiate a >lucid dream or out of body experience. I have heard and read the same. Some experiencers turn the paralysing enemy as a intersting subject of investigations, start to wait for a new attack, and study then it... >>Fact is, there is no proof that what is happening to us is not >>real, and much proof that it is. ... IMHO what happens to you is 100 % true, but what it is, is another story. >>People who >>go to bed at night without a mark on them and wake up the next >>day with unexplained puncture marks, scars, bruises, scoop >>marks, this is not evidence? > >Of course this is evidence. The question is 'Evidence of what?'. Indeed. >>Is there one person out there who >>had an episode of sleep paralysis that caused anything of this >>nature? I don't think so. >I've know of several such cases. It's not exactly common, but >neither is it rare. >>Yes, Leslie, it is damn insulting, and I for one am tired of all >>the effort to make liars of us all. None of us wants this! None >>of us is happy with it! None of us wake up in the morning >>thankful to be an abductee. I don�t consider you as a liar. As I said: I do belive you really experienced something, is the harder question, witch I can�t and that�s why I don�t even try hard to answer. >>If this were so, you would be >>hearing from many more than just the small handful that dares to >>"come out" and make ourselves known. For every one of us who >>writes in to something like this List, using our own names, >>there are about 200 more who remain anonymous. This is not >>something that you see people lining up to admit to. I just >>don't think you see that with people who have suffered from >>sleep paralysis, do you? >Many ASP experiencers have gone years, sometimes decades, >without telling anyone about their experiences for fear of being >thought 'crazy'. Only after they found a community of other >experiencers were they able to come forward with their own >accounts. >Joseph Polanik >[Note: one can subscribe to ASP-L by sending a blank email to >ASP-L-subscribe@onelist.com ] Some findings about sleep paralysis. Hope they help. http://www.watarts.waterloo.ca/~acheyne/S_P.html http://www.watarst.waterloo.ca/~acheyne/prevent.html http://www.eden.com/~sbonham/dream.htm http://www.eden.com/~sbonham/Sse.htm http://www.daily.standford.ogr/Daily96-97/4-9-7/NEWS/NEWdrugog.html http://www.trionica.com/ http://www.nationaljewish.org/MSU/11n4MSU_Sleep.html http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/1700/sunds.html http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/1700/hag.html http://www.angelfire.com/co/SleepParalysisLucid/moreInfoPar.html http://www.shoah.free-online.co.uk/801/Adduct/abdsleep.html Minna Laajala From Finland UFO-Finland www.ufofinland.net ufofinland@saunalahti.fi
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 31 UpDate: Re: Pioneering Astronaut Sees UFO Coverup From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 05:37:38 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 23:04:56 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Pioneering Astronaut Sees UFO Coverup Source: space.com http://www.space.com/news/spaceagencies/gordon_ufos_000728.html Stig *** Pioneering Astronaut Sees UFO Coverup By Leonard David Senior Space Writer posted: 07:14 am ET 30 July 2000 ** WASHINGTON -- One of America's first astronauts claims that the government has withheld information that alien spacecraft have visited Earth. Leroy Gordon "Gordo" Cooper Jr. says the government has "swept under the rug" the truth about unidentified flying objects or UFOs. "Each administration has probably tried to figure out how, with the least embarrassment, they could confess to this whole thing," he said at a recent appearance in Washington to promote his new book, Leap of Faith: An Astronaut's Journey in the Unknown (HarperCollins Publishers, $25). "They need to clean the slate about what has been going on or has not been going on," he said. In space for a day Cooper, 72, was one of the original Mercury Seven picked by NASA in 1959. The last of the Mercury astronauts to be lofted into space, Cooper was blasted into orbit atop an Atlas rocket in May 1963. He circled Earth for 22 orbits in his Faith 7 capsule, becoming the first American to stay in space for a day. Cooper returned to space in August 1965 with the late Pete Conrad on the Gemini 5 mission. After retiring from NASA in 1970, he went to work for Disney as a vice-president for research and development. He later worked as a high-tech consultant and aircraft designer. Since 1989, he has been a partner in an aeronautical design firm in Van Nuys, California. Now a retired Air Force colonel living in Los Angeles, he is campaigning to have the government open the books on UFO research. Charges of coverup "There certainly have been too many people, very qualified people and qualified groups of people, that have had interface of one type or another with extraterrestrial craft or beings," Cooper said. "To really deny that something is going on and deny that they definitely exist � we need a little more explanation." Government officials say there is nothing to cover up about UFOs. ---------------------------------------------------------------- �2000 SPACE.com, inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 31 UpDate: Edwards AFB Incident: Air Force Captain Admits Seeing From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 06:45:27 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 23:09:17 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Edwards AFB Incident: Air Force Captain Admits Seeing Forwarded from "uk.rec.ufo". Stig *** Subject: AIR FORCE CAPTAIN ADMITS SEEING UFOS AT BASE Date: 29 Jul 2000 16:37:41 GMT From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2) Newsgroups: uk.rec.ufo ** from: flexaret2@aol.com (S. Sherman) 7-29-2000 I have added a letter to the Edwards Air Force Base Encounter website- http://www.edwardsufo.com This letter came from the alert pilot, who is heard on the official Air Force audio recordings of the UFO Alert At Edwards AFB. The letter details his own sighting at the base of an extraordinary flying object. - Sam Sherman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 31 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 00:12:20 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 23:07:15 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Sandow >Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 09:01:35 +0100 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Mr Sandow seems to suggest that I should ask more questions >before giving my opinions. Fair enough, here are some questions: >1. Children have always suffered from sleep disorders, panic >attacks, anxiety and so forth. I'm curious to know why you don't >think that's happening here. >2. How do abductee parents take such factors into account when >they worry about what their kids report? >3. Do you have any facts from specific abduction cases where >skilled professionals have determined that abductee parents' >children are suffering from more than sleep disorders, panic >attacks and so forth, and have diagnosed that the childrens' >fears are fuelled by an external, non-conventional source? These are excellent questions, exactly the kind that both abduction skeptics and proponents should ask. And look what happens when a skeptic asks them! Not only is it courteous...not only does it produce useful debate...but it puts the skeptic at a strategic advantage, because now abduction proponents have to argue their case on its merits. >3. Do you have any facts from specific abduction cases where >skilled professionals have determined that abductee parents' >children are suffering from more than sleep disorders, panic >attacks and so forth, and have diagnosed that the childrens' >fears are fuelled by an external, non-conventional source? No, and I wish I did. Failing that, I'd love to see someone put this discussion on solid ground by outlining the literature on children's fears. What characteristics do they normally have? If we knew that, we could compare abduction-like reports from children, and see whether or not they fit the pattern. >1. Children have always suffered from sleep disorders, panic >attacks, anxiety and so forth. I'm curious to know why you don't >think that's happening here. In some cases I've heard about, children are so persistent and so forceful, as they report abduction-like events, that parents feel something is going on beyond normal childhood fears. I understand that this feeling is highly subjective. The reports also can come from children who haven't normally been fearful, and they can be highly specific. I'd love to know whether that's true of normal childhood fears. My own, as I remember them, were huge but vague. Childrens' abduction-like reports can be specific, and the details remain the same over time, which suggests that the stories aren't elaborations of a frightened fantasy. One kind of specificity is a terrified reaction to pictures of the standard alien. I've heard of that a number of times. In two cases I know of, the child's reaction was a complete surprise to everyone who saw it, and seemed to come from nowhere. The child simply came across an abduction book with an alien on the cover -- in a grandparent's house, in one case, in a bookstore, in the other -- and started screaming in terror. In one case the child kept pointing at the picture of the alien, saying "He's bad! He's bad!" In the other (this is a case I'll discuss in a moment, from the mid-Eighties, reported by a family with no knowledge of abductions) the child had been talking about "beauties" that came in the night, took her to the sky, and hurt and frightened her. She saw "Communion" in a bookstore, and said "That's one of the beauties who takes me." I well understand that anecdotes like these don't prove anything, but I'd be wary of quick skeptical explanations offered without any investigation. And then there's the content of the reports, which closely parallel adult abduction reports. It's easy to say that the children have heard their parents discussing abductions, or seen abduction TV shows, but for one thing, that's simply an assumption. How do we know it's true in any given case? When it's advanced as a general explanation of children's abduction reports, it has a further disadvantage -- like many psychosocial theories, it can't be disproved, since Finally, there are cases -- I've seen a dramatic one from Budd's files -- where the parents hadn't heard about abductions, and had no idea that the child's stories fit the abduction pattern. This case dates from the mid-Eighties, when abduction stories and images weren't nearly as familiar as they are now. The child reported perhaps a dozen things that fit the abduction narrative, from the look of the beings to details of what they allegedly did. (This is the same child who reacted to the "Communion" cover.) I'd add one general point. Anyone who's read David Hufford's classic study, "The Terror That Comes in the Night" surely remembers Hufford's discussion of sleep paralysis. Hufford is discussing a frightening experience well known in Newfoundland, in which people wake up in the middle of the night feeling a presence pressing on their chests. This could be explained as a result of Newfoundland folklore, but Hufford was surprised to find that people in the United States reported the same experience, even though they'd never heard of it. It seemed, therefore, not to derive from any kind of cultural influence. Hufford considers other explanations, including sleep paralysis. He does find similarities between sleep paralysis and this "Old Hag" experience (as it's called in Newfoundland), but dissmisses sleep paralysis as an explanation. His point, which he makes quite forcefullly, is that sleep paralysis can't explain the content of the experience. Seems to me that there's a parallel here with using children's fears as a blanket explanation for children's abduction reports. No one disputes that children have fears, but how, specifically, do those fears lead children to report what sound like abductions? Not that it's impossible, but I'd like to hear a detailed explanation of how it happens. Many thanks to John for asking these important questions. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 31 UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 02:01:00 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 23:14:13 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter - Gates >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 00:39:02 -0500 >From: geehart@frontiernet.net >Subject: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 01:42:18 -0400 (EDT) >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: Budd Hopkins on John Carpenter >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>I do predict that it will gain front page coverage in Phil >>Klass's news letter. >Robert, >Where would you rather see the story first? In the MUFON Journal >showing how MUFON is moving decisively to improve and enforce >their ethical standards or in Klass's newsletter further tearing >us apart? We and MUFON have to make this choice and now, not >later. The sooner MUFON gets in front of this issue the better. >Gary Hart Gary, I totally agree with you, that MUFON should move now, now, now. I commend you for grabbing the bull by the horns so to speak and investigating and writing a report/complaint and presenting it to John Schussler, which in essence, forces MUFON to take a position of either doing something, or letting it languish and doing nothing. I agree that it should be presented through the appropriate MUFON channels first, _then_ if they do nothing..... I suspect they will likely do very little, or nothing. If you have followed my threads, and the threads on the List we find out that Bigelow has and likely continues to pump gobs of cash throughout the UFO community to organizations including MUFON and private researchers. It was recently indicated that this is the reason why the notable and quoteable of ufology and the various organizations are trying to stay away from the entire matter. In fact and reality, this entire matter will likely make front page news in Phil Klass's skeptical newsletter _long_ before it will ever make front page in any of the so called pro-UFO journals or 'zines. If it does make it in print, it will likely be on page 38 at the lower bottom, you know, a two paragraph story. I hope I am dead wrong, but if the pro-UFO side buries this issue, they are no better then the folks in government that unloaded the weather balloon story for Roswell. cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 31 UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary Hart - From: Corky Kippenberger <KIPPENBERGER@cs.com> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 07:34:38 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 23:17:09 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary Hart - >From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 23:19:38 -0500 >Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Hart >To: updates@sympatico.ca Gary, Let me cut to the chase, please. 1.) Do you have _any_ source, at all, that has told you that John Carpenter released files that were unsanitized to _anyone_, other than what Elizabeth Carpenter has told or shown you? 2.) Did you not think it unethical when Elizabeth handed you the list of subjects in John's case files? Is this how it happened? 3.) When you stated that _most_ of the files were not sanitized, what were you basing that statement on? Simple questions. Can you answer them without moth dancing? I'd like it clear and simple, Gary, because I've read all the messages that are relevant to this issue, and I still am not getting it... Who supplied you with what? I don't need names other than Elizabeths, nor do I want them. Thank-you in advance, Corky Kippenberger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 31 UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Aldrich From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:59:29 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 23:21:40 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Aldrich >From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> >Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 08:47:54 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: UpDate: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children - Keith >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:29:48 -0700 >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca> >>Subject: Re: Abductee Files/Our Children >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>I guess it all boils down to the "researcher". >>1. A researcher without a degree in medical therapy has no >>freaking right to play with people's mind. His _only_ concern >>should be to put the people in touch with a professional. >>2. The researcher's prime duty is to establish a rooster of >>professional therapists who can and will deal with abduction >>subjects. >>3. If the researcher fails to do that, he should resign or >>associate himself with another researcher who can help people >>out. >>4. Any researcher who dares to hypnotize a subject by himself >>is an incompetent fool. He should have his car painted in >>fluorescent red. >>5. When it comes to children, multiply that by ten and roll >>him in tar and chicken feathers. >Thank you, Serge! Very well said. >best, >Rebecca I second this, Rebecca and Serge. One of the best posting I have read here. Hits all the points right on the head! Early in 1995, I received a letter from a woman who claimed that the Communists and ETS were after her. She claimed she continually had to change her address so neither the Communists or ETS would find her. She said after she read anything in the news, magazines and books about Communists and UFOs, they seemed to know where she was and would come after her. The letter had been written to another UFO researcher, but my name had been substituted for his. I advised her that she should throw away any books or news items she had on Communists or abduction because that is how her tormentors got in touch with her. She should look in the telephone book and find a mental health professional. If she felt foolish or ashamed, this was her tormentors trying to keep her from getting help. She should go to this professional, and do as he instructed because he could probably break this hold on her. The letter went out and shortly was returned with the notation, "moved, left no address." I decided then and there that abductions were not my venue. They should be left to medical professionals, especially professionals who had no personal agenda, no matter how worthy, to promote. It seems that great care must be taken with children. Children tend to look to adults for clues about what the adults want to hear, and then give back to adults the cues they pick up. This is where many of the more ridiculous child abuse cases come from. A jury in the Northwest was so sure that children won't lie or hadn't been manipulated that they only gave cursory objection to the story about animals brought into the picture. How did they get the giraffes into the room with the children? Jan Aldrich
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Jul > Jul 31 UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 04:55:15 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 23:31:30 -0400 Subject: UpDate: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Velez >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 21:54:43 -0400 (EDT) >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary - Mulvey >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:48:41 -0400 >>From: Ann Mulvey <annmulvey@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 14:16:22 -0400 (EDT) >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>>Subject: Re: Open Letter to Elizabeth and Gary >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Hi Jim, ><snip> Mortellaro writes: >You ask where I am coming from? OK. I don't like it >when people get flamed. Here or anywhere else. Even when and if >they have done wrong. and,... >I have done nothing to help the situation on this list except to >intervene when the flames got high... too high. <snip> Hello EBK, Docca, hi All, Jim, I know Errol. That man reads each and every posting that is submitted to UpDates carefully. The _only_ time that a posting is returned to the sender is when it is a _blatant_ flame. The guy just won't publish it period. I know that _you_ know this too about EBK. The proof (if you need it) is in recently returned posts of yours (to me) that he "forwarded" to me but did not publish on the List. Knowing you, I'm sure you'll cry "crony-ism" or some other such nonsense because of my personal relationship/friendship with Errol, but nonetheless, the basic _fact_ that he doesn't publish "Flames" remains clearly undisputed. Who's "Flaming" who Jimbo? All I did was to respond to your outrageous claims and nonsensical intrusions into an issue that was of tremendous importance to a lot of people. I don't know or care what you 'think' my motivations were for going public with this once I had confirmed it. All I knew for sure was that I was not going to become another "silent partner" in this three-year-old violation against 140 of my fellow abductees. From day one, all you have contributed is fantasy. ie; that I somehow 'implicated' Budd Hopkins in all this business via past association, and the 'impression' you were trying to give people that you were somehow meaningfully associated with Budd or IF for longer than just the few months that it was. My comments to you were published by EBK, went undisputed by Greg Sandow (who is fairly close to Budd, reads this list,) nor did you receive any rebuttals to my statements from Budd or anyone on else on the IF committee. (Some of which read this list!) In my post to you I openly invited anyone and everyone involved to cut me down at the ankles on the List if I was telling a lie or misrepresenting any of the facts. It never happened. "If I'm lyin' I'm cryin' and you don't see any tears in my eyes do you? ;) Jimmy, I am not trying to minimize the fact that you helped Budd and IF. Your help was deeply appreciated and, you _did_ help. That is not in question and I said so in my original. You just have the habit of a trout fisherman when proclaiming the 'size' of the fish. It's a different story when you try to paint that help that you extended as an "association" that was more than it was in reality. Your "association" with Budd and IF is not what you publicly proclaim it to be. That bit of exaggeration was just plain deceptive on your part and unfair to mugs like like Peter Robbins, myself, and a few others who poured blood, sweat, and tears into the IF pot for years - for free. Yet you seem unable to understand why I would be offended at what you imply in terms of your own relationship/contribution to IF. The moment you dragged Budd's name into all this and started telling 'fish stories' I was _forced_ to respond. All you've done since then is cry baby shoes left and right on the List about all the "flames and finger pointing" that goes on in this forum. What "Flames?" EBK doesn't publish them. You _do_ know that right? Whether you agree with my methods or not, this issue needed public exposure and a public dialog. Both of those 'goals' have been attained. The only thing that remains is for Carpenter to do right by those abductees and inform them that he has sold their private information and reports. Something he should have done _before_ the fact. He has admitted on this List in his most recent response to Ann Mulvey that he "agreed" that the abductees should be informed. (Why he didn't do it himself three years ago is a mystery to me, but all that really matters is that they be informed post haste.) So Docca, where is this "great injustice" that has been perpetrated against Carpenter and Ufology? All I see is; Carpenter copping to having made a huge boner by agreeing that these folks should be informed, a healthy dialog on this and other lists about witness/abductee rights, and what is required to protect those rights. And then there's _you_ Jimmy. Flaming and pointing fingers. Have you snapped to the fact yet that _you_ are the only one (abductee) that has consistently tried to derail the proceedings by introducing non-issues as well as unnecessary distractions and accusations? Don't for a moment believe that it has gone unnoticed by other abductees who happen to care deeply about this and the outcome. In all my posts (which are archived for all to see,) I have never tried to focus on anything other than the rights of those abductees to know. I have _fought_ to keep this centered on the issue of privacy and anonymity and _not_ a witch hunt of Carpenter himself. Go back, read the posts. I'll ask you for the last time, if you cannot contribute something which helps us to get these folks informed, would you please stop working against it with all these rants about 'flames, finger pointing, and the fools who do it.' If you want to know who the fool is that engages in such divisive and destructive practices check out the mug in the nearest mirror. Please man, give it a rest. If you cannot help the issue & these abductees, stop trying to hurt it. Sincerely, John Velez