UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Aug

                          UFO UpDates Mailing List
                                  Aug 2001

  Aug 1:

   To Youngs Everywhere - Jim Mortellaro [42]
   Re: Serious Research - Young - Bob Young [59]
   Re: Disclosure Project Witnesses - Fritch - Jess Fritch [40]
   Re: Disclosure Project Witnesses - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [63]
   Re: Cydonian Imperative 07-31-01 - 'Sphinx' - Mac Tonnies [6]
   P-47: Pflock & Randle On Today Show 08-06-01 - Karl Pflock [9]
   Re: To Youngs Everywhere - Young - Bob Young [30]
   CCRN: Crop Circle Research Assistance - Formation - Paul Anderson [91]
   One Giant Leap for Spacekind? - UFO UpDates - Toronto [75]

  Aug 2:

   Secrecy News -- 08/01/01 - Steven Aftergood [102]
   Re: To Youngs Everywhere - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [60]
   Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Mac Tonnies [23]
   Re: To Youngs Everywhere - Hall - Richard Hall [50]
   THE WATCHDOG - 08-01-01 - Royce J. Myers III [15]
   CCCRN News: Fields of Dreams Webcast Delayed - Paul Anderson [20]
   Rendlesham Skywatch Report - Roy J Hale [9]
   Re: Marcia Smith Letter - Gates - Robert Gates [24]
   Re: No Roswell At MUFON 2001 Symposium - Gates - Robert Gates [31]
   Re: Clinton, OSTP, and UFOs Part 3 - Hatch - Larry Hatch [73]
   Re: UFO Crash On Plains Of St. Augustin? - Friedman - Stan Friedman [8]

  Aug 3:

   Re: To Youngs Everywhere - Young - Bob Young [44]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [48]
   Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data - Nick Balaskas [33]
   Two UFO Magazines - Jan Aldrich [75]
   Re: No Roswell At MUFON 2001 Symposium - Sparks - Brad Sparks [37]
   Re: Marcia Smith Letter - Cameron - Grant Cameron [47]
   Antiques, Blue Whiteners & Missing Time - Jim Mortellaro [65]
   UFO Taped By WTVQ News Lexington, Kentucky - Kenny Young [108]

  Aug 4:

   Re: To Youngs Everywhere - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [82]
   Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data - Brad Sparks [27]
   Re: To Youngs Everywhere - Hall - Richard Hall [39]
   Re: UFO Taped By WTVQ News Lexington, Kentucky - - Alfred Lehmberg [39]
   Re: Marcia Smith Letter - Hall - Richard Hall [48]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Bourdais - GBourdais@aol.com [69]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sparks - Brad Sparks [15]
   Re: UFO Taped By WTVQ News Lexington, Kentucky - - Brad Sparks [41]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [41]
   Secrecy News -- 08/03/01 - Steven Aftergood [111]
   Re: UFO Taped By WTVQ - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [25]
   Prairie Network Cameras Did Catch 16 UFOs - Brad Sparks [184]
   Re: No Roswell At MUFON 2001 Symposium - Gates - Robert Gates [44]

  Aug 5:

   Re: New Insights On SETI - Henny van der Pluijm [116]
   UFO Sightings OZ Files P1 - 05.08.2001 - Diane Harrison [96]
   UFO Sightings OZ Files P3 - 05.08.2001 - Diane Harrison [97]
   UFO Sightings P2- OZ Files 05.08.2001 - Diane Harrison [238]
   Re: Marcia Smith Letter - Cameron - Grant Cameron [56]

  Aug 6:

   Re: New Insights On SETI - Hatch - Larry Hatch [46]
   Re: UFO Sightings OZ Files P1 - 05.08.2001 - Hatch - Larry Hatch [66]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [29]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [72]
   Cat-Faced Beings? - Thiago Ticchetti [16]
   Re: Voyager Newsletter No. 18 - Gates - Robert Gates [29]
   Re: Carter, Sheehan, & Menzel - Gates - Robert Gates [42]
   Cydonian Imperative: 06-08-01 Chasing A Chimera - Mac Tonnies [106]
   Re: Voyager Newsletter No. 18 - Hall - Richard Hall [38]
   Re: Voyager Newsletter No. 18 - Sparks - Brad Sparks [58]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [48]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sparks - Brad Sparks [93]
   Re: New Insights On SETI - Sparks - Brad Sparks [69]
   Re: UFO Sightings OZ Files P1 - 05.08.2001 - - Diane Harrison AUFORN
   [52]
   Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data - - Nick Balaskas [40]
   MUFON/U.S. Senators - Dennis Stacy [23]
   Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data - - Richard Hall [50]
   Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data - - Georgina Bruni [11]

  Aug 7:

   Are you Ready For The Revolution? - Grant Cameron [161]

  Aug 8:

   Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Ledger - Don Ledger [28]
   Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data - - Brad Sparks [109]
   Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Ledger - Don Ledger [81]
   Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Ledger - Don Ledger [45]
   Secrecy News -- 08/06/01 - Steven Aftergood [140]
   Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Ledger - Don Ledger [48]
   Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Ledger - Don Ledger [18]
   Re: New Insights On SETI - Hatch - Larry Hatch [86]
   Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data - Christopher Kelly [58]
   Re: MUFON/U.S. Senators - Lietz - Haiko Lietz [28]
   THE WATCHDOG - 08-07-01 - Royce J.Myers III [13]
   Re: Are you Ready For The Revolution? - Young - Bob Young [14]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [46]
   FAA Reports And NIDs - Katharina Wilson [9]
   Re: Voyager Newsletter No. 18 - Hale - Roy J Hale [29]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Morris - Neil Morris [178]
   Re: Recognise This Triangular Stealth Aircraft? - - Don Ledger [22]
   Investigators Stumped By Cattle Mutilations - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [43]
   Filer's Files #32 - 2001 - George A. Filer [398]
   Re: Are you Ready For The Revolution? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [40]
   Re: Are you Ready For The Revolution? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [53]
   New At Magonia - 08-08-01 - John Rimmer [13]
   Rush Takes Aim At UFO Politics - Grant Cameron [93]
   Re: Voyager Newsletter No. 18 - GT McCoy [56]

  Aug 9:

   Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [91]
   Aegean Airspace Challengers... From Outer Space? - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [29]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sparks - Brad Sparks [31]
   Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Young - Bob Young [24]
   Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Young - Bob Young [42]
   Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Young - Bob Young [17]
   Re: Are you Ready For The Revolution? - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro
   [54]
   Danish Circles - Ron Cecchini [27]
   Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data - - Ron Cecchini [45]
   Secrecy News -- 08/08/01 - Steven Aftergood [156]
   Ramey Message 'Eagle Seal' [was: Review of - Brad Sparks [416]
   Re: Aegean Airspace Challengers... From Outer - Larry Hatch [43]
   Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Young - Bob Young [31]
   Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [34]
   National UFO Conference Update - Stephen Miles Lewis [156]
   Element 118 Claim Withdrawn - Bob Young [6]
   MUFON Ontario URL Change - UFO UpDates - Toronto [21]

  Aug 10:

   Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Ledger - Don Ledger [29]
   Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Ledger - Don Ledger [55]
   Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Ledger - Don Ledger [36]
   Condon Committee Harrisburg Camera [was: Talk And - Brad Sparks [115]
   THE WATCHDOG - 08-10-01 - Royce J. Myers III [17]
   Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [53]
   Gerald Anderson A Seal? - Dennis Stacy [9]
   Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [57]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [48]
   Secrecy News -- 08/10/01 - Steven Aftergood [170]

  Aug 11:

   Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [79]
   Re: Gerald Anderson A Seal? - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [28]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [44]
   Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - McCoy - GT McCoy [73]
   Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Young - Bob Young [39]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sparks - Brad Sparks [87]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sparks - Brad Sparks [784]
   Jesse Ventura Talks UFOs - Steven L. Wilson, Sr [18]
   Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [89]

  Aug 12:

   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [83]
   Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around - Richard Hall [107]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sandow - Greg Sandow [44]
   Meteor Shower Tonight And The Rest Of August - Teri Edgar [27]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [101]
   Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [49]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [50]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [274]
   Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect - Stephen Miles Lewis [5]
   Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect - Mac Tonnies [21]

  Aug 13:

   Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around - Larry Hatch [61]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [44]
   Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect - Daniel D. Moroff
   [19]
   Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around - Robert Young [54]
   Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Young - Robert Young [25]
   Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect - Steve Bassett [28]
   Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect - Jim Mortellaro [31]
   CCCRN News: 08-12-01 Crop Watch 2001 - Paul Anderson [43]
   The Forest Has Eyes... Red Ones - Bobbie Felder [15]
   Sighting, Franklin/Springboro, OHIO - 8/3/01 - Kenny Young [76]
   Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around - GT McCoy [113]
   CCCRN News: Dutch Formation Grows - Researchers - Paul Anderson [22]
   Re: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [30]
   Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around - Marty Murray [66]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Young - UFO UpDates - Toronto [32]
   Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect - John Velez [39]
   Where To Archive Diaries, Etc.? - Will Bueche - PEER [16]
   Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Day 16 - Grant Cameron [248]
   Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around - Richard Hall [48]

  Aug 14:

   Reed, Chacon & Aria [was: MUFON 2001 Symposium] - Kathleen Anderson
   [29]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [34]
   Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect - Ron Cecchini [13]
   Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect - Steve Bassett [51]
   Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around - Don Ledger [89]
   Re: The Forest Has Eyes... Red Ones - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [31]
   Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around - Larry Hatch [81]
   Re: Where To Archive Diaries, Etc.? - Cammack - Diana Cammack [42]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Velez - John Velez [47]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [44]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [39]
   Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [34]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [46]
   Voyager Newsletter No. 19 - James Easton [184]
   Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect - John Velez [22]
   Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect - John Velez [77]
   'UFO/Anthropoid Catalogue'? - Roy J Hale [6]
   Humanoid Contact Database 1990 Online - Roy J Hale [7]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Young - Bob Young [36]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Young - Bob Young [21]
   Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around - Marty Murray [36]

  Aug 15:

   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Hall - Richard Hall [53]
   Re: Where To Archive Diaries, Etc.? - Gonzlez - Luis R. Gonzlez Manso
   [14]
   Re: Voyager Newsletter No. 19 - Bruni - Georgina Bruni [19]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [70]
   Re: CCCRN News: 1000' Six-Armed Julia Set - Paul Anderson [19]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - McCoy - GT McCoy [71]
   New UFO-Flap In Turkey? - Joachim Koch [22]
   Ramey's Debris [was: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'] - Brad Sparks [131]
   Re: Ramey's Debris [was: Review of Pflock's - Stan Friedman [45]
   Stan Friedman's New Web Site - Dave Vetterick [8]
   'Extraterrestrial Visitations' - A Review - Katharina Wilson [94]
   Cavitt's Roswell Testimony [was: Review of - Bruce Maccabee [40]
   Turkish Pilots & UFO - Hakan Konac" [31]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris - Neil Morris [87]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sparks - Brad Sparks [182]
   UFOs And Classified Aircraft - Leonard David [5]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - - Alfred Lehmberg [145]

  Aug 16:

   Filer's Files #33 - 2001 - George A. Filer [532]
   Re: Ramey Message 'Eagle Seal' - Morris - Neil Morris [461]
   Re: New UFO-Flap In Turkey? - Ledger - Don Ledger [38]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - - Grant Cameron [26]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - - Grant Cameron [56]
   Re: Turkish Pilots & UFO - McCoy - GT McCoy [56]
   Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure - Velez - John Velez [125]
   Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure - - Jim Mortellaro [96]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [33]
   Secrecy News -- 08/15/01 - Steven Aftergood [104]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Sparks - Brad Sparks [144]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [29]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [30]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Young - Bob Young [54]
   Roswell Debris Field [was: Review of Pflock's - Bill Hamilton [148]
   Lexington UFO Video - Still Images - Kenny Young [11]
   [CANUFO] Nova Scotia Triangles - Eugene H. Frison [51]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris - Neil Morris [170]
   Nova Scotia Triangles - Eugene H. Frison [51]

  Aug 17:

   Re: Roswell Debris Field - Young - Bob Young [45]
   Re: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images - Velez - John Velez [30]
   Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure - - Lara Johnstone [182]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 322 - Edoardo Russo [109]
   Re: New UFO-Flap In Turkey? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [41]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Friedman - Stan Friedman [78]
   Re: Ramey Message 'Eagle Seal' - Sparks - Brad Sparks [166]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sparks - Brad Sparks [56]
   Re: Roswell Debris Field - Sparks - Brad Sparks [144]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Sparks - Brad Sparks [44]
   Re: Roswell Debris Field - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [105]
   Re: Turkish Pilots & UFO - Sparks - Brad Sparks [47]
   E-SKEPTIC: Politically Incorrect - Ron Cecchini [28]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris - Dennis Stacy [45]
   Darn You Streiber - You Did Good - Jim Mortellaro [16]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Gates - Robert Gates [41]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Gates - Robert Gates [72]
   Streiber On Politically Incorrect - Steve Bassett [12]
   MOD Rendlesham File Released - Georgina Bruni [64]
   Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure - Velez - John Velez [233]
   Re: Daniel Sheehan? - Gary Anthony [5]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Murray - Marty Murray [46]

  Aug 18:

   Re: Ramey's Debris - Sparks - Brad Sparks [104]
   Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure - - Lara Johnstone [34]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - van Gemert - Jean van Gemert [24]
   Re: E-SKEPTIC: Politically Incorrect - Hall - Richard Hall [38]
   Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure - - Lara Johnstone [67]
   Re: E-SKEPTIC: Politically Incorrect - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [28]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [19]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Dennis Stacy [27]
   Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Sparks - Brad Sparks [76]
   Re: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images - Young - Kenny Young [45]
   Re: Streiber On Politically Incorrect - Sparks - Brad Sparks [29]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Gates - Robert Gates [73]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [43]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [33]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Sparks - Brad Sparks [103]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Gates - Robert Gates [38]
   Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sparks - Brad Sparks [54]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Sparks - David Rudiak [130]
   Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure - Kelly - Kelly [48]
   EW News: 08-18-01 Firmage - Engaging the Future - Kurt Jonach [89]
   Rendlesham - MOD Files Website - Dave Clarke [36]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Randle - Kevin Randle [85]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Young - Bob Young [25]
   Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure - Velez - John Velez [79]
   Re: Rendlesham - MOD Files Website - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [23]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris - Neil Morris [117]
   Canadian Reports Increase - Chris Rutkowski [56]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Deardorff - Jim Deardorff [63]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [55]
   The Encyclopedia of Extraterrestrial Encounters - John Hayes [79]

  Aug 19:

   Re: Ramey's Debris - Friedman - Stan Friedman [32]
   Magonia Supplement No.36 - John Rimmer [625]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris - Neil Morris [117]
   Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Bruni - Georgina Bruni [117]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Skavhaug - Asgeir W. Skavhaug [97]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - McCoy - GT McCoy [49]
   Re: Canadian Reports Increase - Young - Bob Young [22]
   Re: Canadian Reports Increase - Jones - Sean Jones [27]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - - Grant Cameron [55]

  Aug 20:

   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - - Jim Mortellaro [90]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Rudiak - David Rudiak [99]
   Johnstone Takes ET Hunger Strike To White House - Grant Cameron [240]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [121]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Young - Bob Young [77]
   CCCRN News: 2000 Formation Report - Handsworth, - Paul Anderson [59]
   Cydonian Imperative: 08-19-01 - Evidence of - Mac Tonnies [23]
   Re: Turkish Pilots & UFO - Konac - Hakan Konac [96]
   Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Roberts - Andy Roberts [57]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Velez - John Velez [150]

  Aug 21:

   Foot & Mouth Reduced Crop Circle Sightings - Adam Lowe [56]
   National UFO Conference Update - SMiles Lewis [409]
   Review: Faster Than Light - Joe McGonagle [126]
   Review: Northern UFO News - Joe McGonagle [155]
   New Research Center In Portugal - Joaquim Fernandes [30]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Sparks - Brad Sparks [48]
   UFO Sightings OZ Files 21-08-2001 - Diane Harrison [271]
   Re: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images - Henry - Joel Henry [37]
   Ex-Pilot Keeps Watching The Skies - UFO UpDates - Toronto [93]
   Secrecy News -- 08/20/01 - Steven Aftergood [67]
   Re: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images - Ledger - Don Ledger [49]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris - Neil Morris [113]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Skavhaug - Asgeir W. Skavhaug [67]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - - Grant Cameron [78]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Skavhaug - Asgeir W. Skavhaug [155]
   Motion Sciences Organization Press Release - Kurt Jonach [238]
   National UFO Conference Update - SMiles Lewis [409]
   Help Needed On 2 Old Cases - Chris Aubeck [76]
   Rudolf Fenz - Time Traveler? - Chris Aubeck [28]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Hatch - Larry Hatch [144]
   UFO Cult Cloning Lab A Fraud - Royce J. Myers III [9]
   THE WATCHDOG - 08-21-01 - Royce J. Myers III [11]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Cox - Sheree Cox [8]

  Aug 22:

   List Hiatus - UFO UpDates - Toronto [5]

  Aug 30:

   List Back On-line - UFO UpDates - Toronto [14]
   US Base's Report Of UFO Crash 'Had MoD In A Panic' - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [59]
   Russian Scientists See Flying Saucers - UFO UpDates - Toronto [115]
   Hypnosis May Give False Confidence To Inaccurate - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [103]
   Alien Seekers Damage Stone Age Mound - UFO UpDates - Toronto [61]
   SETI Signal Crunching Yields Little So Far - UFO UpDates - Toronto [92]
   Chines Had Crop Circles First - UFO UpDates - Toronto [93]
   Mystery Around Noise, Lights Continues - UFO UpDates - Toronto [106]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Velez - John Velez [147]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Young - Bob Young [40]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - - sqquishy@altavista.com
   [16]
   Re: Lexington UFO Video - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [46]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Rudiak - David Rudiak [106]
   Re: Canadian Reports Increase - Rutkowski - Chris Rutkowski [44]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris - Neil Morris [42]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Jones - Sean Jones [20]
   Re: Rudolf Fenz - Time Traveler? - Waskiewicz - John Waskiewicz [37]
   Re: Lexington UFO Video - Kenny Young - Kenny Young [14]
   Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Gates - Robert Gates [53]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Gates - Robert Gates [27]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Rimmer - John Rimmer [29]
   New Developments In Linda Cortile Abduction - Intruders Foundation [59]
   Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Grant Cameron [54]
   UFO Conference - New Jersey 10-6/7-01 - Tom Benson [126]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Gonzlez Manso - Luis R. Gonzlez Manso [23]
   Secrecy News -- 08/22/01 - Steven Aftergood [130]
   UFO UpDate:CCCRN News: Formation Report 2001 #6 - Dauphin, - Paul
   Anderson [83]
   Filer's Files #34 - 08-22-01 - George A. Filer [475]
   UFO Conference - New Jersey 10-6/7-01 - Addendum - Tom Benson [28]
   Mars Online Gazette: A Mystery At Sagan Memorial - Mac Tonnies [206]
   Ursa Major - Katharina Wilson [33]
   Cydonian Imperative - 08-24-01 - Crop Formations - Mac Tonnies [67]
   Secrecy News -- 08/24/01 - Steven Aftergood [94]
   Slaves To Secrets And Lies - Grant Cameron [61]
   Cydonian Imperative: 08-25-01 - SETI Glyph Analysed - Mac Tonnies [71]
   Secrecy News -- 08/27/01 - Steven Aftergood [84]
   Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Hale - Roy J Hale [14]
   Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements - Andy Roberts [18]
   Filer's Files #35 - 2001 - George A. Filer [510]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - - David Wachenschwanz
   [33]
   Advanced Propulsion & New Energy Technologies - Alexander V. Frolov
   [24]
   Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Sandow - Greg Sandow [38]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Velez - John Velez [46]
   Re: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images - Velez - John Velez [43]
   Re: New Developments In Linda Cortile Abduction - - George Hansen [16]
   Secrecy News -- 08/30/01 - Steven Aftergood [137]
   Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Rimmer - John Rimmer [14]
   Re: Ursa Major - Young - Bob Young [21]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Hatch - Larry Hatch [33]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Sparks - Brad Sparks [302]
   Scientist Hopes To Nail Down Strange Noises - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [53]
   Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike - Jim Mortellaro [35]
   Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [37]
   UFO Public Library - Thiago Ticchetti [24]

  Aug 31:

   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Young - Bob Young [48]
   Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - - Jim Mortellaro [54]
   Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [45]
   Re: Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike - Furlotte - David Furlotte
   [16]
   Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Gates - Robert Gates [21]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - - Christopher Kelly [54]
   Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data - - Diana Cammack [20]

  Aug 30:

   UFO Research NSW Oz Conference - 2nd Of September - Diane Harrison [46]

  Aug 31:

   Re: Ramey's Debris - Hatch - Larry Hatch [38]
   Re: Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements - Bruni - Georgina Bruni [55]
   Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Bruni - Georgina Bruni [48]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #353 - Alfred Lehmberg [207]
   Bonsall UK UFO Back? - UFO UpDates - Toronto [32]
   Re: Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike - - Jim Mortellaro [33]
   Earth TV Now Reaching Nearby Stars - UFO UpDates - Toronto [77]

   The number enclosed in brackets is the number of lines of new text in





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                            To Youngs Everywhere

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 19:12:23 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 09:27:04 -0400
Subject: To Youngs Everywhere


To Youngs Everywhere And Their Clear Eyes... Skies

Dearest Youngs,

There have been several. Some old (as in Robert who passed some
years back, who redefined the words, "Daddy Dearest"). And then
there was Young Fronkenshteen who redefined male human anatomy
and taught Madelyn Kahn how to sing in that super voce'. Broke a
record for female ... we won't go there. Although I see no
reason why not. Mel Brooks went there and many other places an'
nobody got mad at him.

Anyway, the porpoise of this letter is to create a sense of love
and warmth, of understanding and, well, just plain male bonding.
Although I much prefer female bonding. But Young Bob is
different. Young Bob, is a skeptibunky. A man whose soul
porpoise is to redefine the word "UFO" and the word "Abduction".
To take advantage of every opportunity, to demean, disparage and
them other things that my friend (we are really just friends)
Merriam defines as skeptic taken to extremis.

Now, if you've gotten this far, I am certain of your insanity
and judge that you must continue. We lost the intellectuals way
back in the first paragraph. So stick with me folks.

I love skeptibunkers as much as the Jesus loves a parade. And I
want to tell you, Bob, that you seem to be getting worse at it.
Losing a degree of credibility from one too many mournings of
the demise of UFO-dom. Trying to make it UFO-dumb. The arguments
I've read here in beautiful downtown UpDates are becoming so
lame that I can't really believe you mean it. So, for the sake
of honesty, male bonding (just don't drop the soap Dude) and
love, Tiny Tim style (he would never make it as a male porno
star - maybe a porno meteorite). Uh, where was I? Oh, for the
sake of love for one and all, tell us true, Young Bob... are you
serious or just Joshing? No offense to you, Josh. Rosie and I
pray for your mom and John's every day. Seriously. These days,
people have avoided that element of positive thinking and have
excluded as outdated, the object of prayer. Even if one does not
believe in the Almighty, thinking positive and calling on the
spirits of this universe ain't such a shabby thing. Someone will
now call me a New Ager but I assure you I am _not_ new.

Come on. I won't tell nobody. And I think I speak for Albert,
Alfred, when I say, "Why's the sky so full of unknown thingies,
Daddy?" So fess up Young Bob. Tell us you are merely joshing.
Hmmm, or are you Lehmberg's CIA handler maybe?


Old Morty








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                        Re: Serious Research - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 19:18:00 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 09:31:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Serious Research - Young


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 09:04:40 EDT
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Serious Research - Young

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Serious Research
 >>Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 20:22:24 -0000

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 23:44:45 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Serious Research
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

I had previously posted,

 >>>>There are now several organizations which collect reports like
 >>>>this, but in 1973 the AMS and the Smithsonian Astrophysical
 >>>>Observatory's Scientific Events Network were about it, and
 >>>>scattered observers for the Association of Lunar & Planetary
 >>>>Observers. Still, even now, few fireballs are actually reported,
 >>>>whether they are visible or not.

You responded,

 >>>For a meteor watcher, this is a strangely inaccurate statement.
 >>>Fireballs are reported all the time. My files are bulging with
 >>>reports from the last few years. As it turns out, I do have the
 >>>AMS fireball list for 1973 in my file (I had quite candidly
 >>>forgotten that), and it shows no fireball on or near the date in
 >>>quesation. However, it includes something like 125-150 for the
 >>>year and about 20 for the month of October, most around the
 >>>Orionids shower.

Then, I wrote,

 >>>Do you have the AMS data from observers in the area at the time
 >>>of the incident? If an observer were actively monitoring the sky
 >>>near Mansfield (I think a 50 mile radius would work) and saw
 >>>nothing, then it would be of interest and probably eliminate the
 >>>fireball hypothesis. However, if there were no observers active
 >>>in the area, the AMS records are not significant. I think the
 >>>AMS fireball reports were mostly (if not all) recorded by meteor
 >>>observers who report them as part of their observations. They
 >>>are not usually filed by passersby who witnessed a fireball.
 >>>This is a matter of "If a tree falls and there is nobody around
 >>>to hear it... ".

You finally responded,

 >>AMS obviously has meteor observers in Ohio. Try again!

To which, I asked,

 >But, did they have any observers counting meteors in Ohio at the
 >time of the Coyne helicopter incident?

Dick:

Haven't gotten your answer, yet, as to whether there were
actually any AMS meteor observers watching the sky _during_ the
Coyne helicopter incident.

Their reports to the AMS for the period may include a meteor,
the UFO, or the directions that they were watching. A -12 mag
object (as bright as the Moon, certainly would have been hard to
miss.)

If there were no AMS observers counting meteors during the time
of the sighting, at least that would negate the _lack_ of a
fireball report as evidence against a bright meteor, as you have
suggested.


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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                  Re: Disclosure Project Witnesses - Fritch

From: Jess Fritch <djfritch@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 16:36:18 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 09:34:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Disclosure Project Witnesses - Fritch


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Disclosure Project Witnesses
 >Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 19:38:33 +0000

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 10:55:19 EDT
 >>Subject: Disclosure Project Witnesses
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Good Morning, List, All -

 >>I have waited to see what happened with Greer's Project
 >>Disclosure and to see if anyone bothered to do a little more
 >>research into those 'insiders' who came forward to tell their
 >>tales of government intrigue, conspiracy, and duplicity. Most
 >>have taken a wait and see attitude while a few have suggested
 >>that, at the very least, Greer is doing something to expose the
 >>problem.

 >>The point is that this whole thing hinges on the credibility of
 >>those 'insiders' who have little or nothing in the way of
 >>documentation and validation. We are left with only the stories
 >>they tell and their claims of their inside positions. The
 >>problem, as I have pointed out before, is that some of those
 >>'insiders' don't seem to be who they claim to be.

<snip>

 >This is well-stated and contains a very important object lesson.
 >A similar "profile" should be done about every one of the
 >Disclosure witnesses (and any others who come along), since
 >Greer didn't bother to do so and obviously is totally
 >uncritical. In that way we could start winnowing out the
 >embellishers and wanna-bes and narrow it down to the important
 >witnesses who should be heard.

 >How about some NASA and other Government agency personnel
 >checking on the credentials of the witnesses who claimed to
 >observe or participate in various cover-up activities for those
 >agencies? It is naive beyond belief to simply accept
 >undocumented tales at face value.

Yes! When investagating anything you should not accept
information at face value. But I would not have NASA or any
other Goverment agency check on the credentials of these
witnesses. That would be like having the fox guard the chickens.


Jess








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                 Re: Disclosure Project Witnesses - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 22:39:49 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 09:42:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Disclosure Project Witnesses - Maccabee


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 10:55:19 EDT
 >Subject: Disclosure Project Witnesses
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Good Morning, List, All -

 >I have waited to see what happened with Greer's Project
 >Disclosure and to see if anyone bothered to do a little more
 >research into those 'insiders' who came forward to tell their
t>ales of government intrigue, conspiracy, and duplicity. Most
 >have taken a wait and see attitude while a few have suggested
 >that, at the very least, Greer is doing something to expose the
 >problem.

 >The point is that this whole thing hinges on the credibility of
 >those 'insiders' who have little or nothing in the way of
 >documentation and validation. We are left with only the stories
 >they tell and their claims of their inside positions. The
 >problem, as I have pointed out before, is that some of those
 >'insiders' don't seem to be who they claim to be.

Kevin brought up the questionability of the testimony of
Clifford Stone.

Another Greer panelist was John Callahan, formerly of the FAA. I
checked on him inasmuch as his sole experience was with the FAA
reaction to the Japan Air Lines (JAL 1628) sighting over Alaska
in November 1986. In January the FAA headqwuarters learned of
it, because of press pressure, and investigated by interviewing
the crew (for a second time). I am familiar with this case since
I wrote the definitive analysis which was publshed by IUR in
late spring, 1987. A shortened version is in the paper 'Prosaic
Explanations, The Failure Of UFO Skepticism' at:

http://brumac.8k.com

(click on papers and scroll to the bottom).

I spoke with Callahan. He clearly had a somewhat muddied
recollection of the events, but no doubt he was 'there' at the
time of the analysis. A key event in that sighting was the
report by the Captain of a huge UFO following him as he headed
for Fairbanks, and then through a 360 deg turn (when radar
detected something) and then south toward Anchorage where he
would land half an hour or so after the UFO was no longer seen.

As JAL 1628 was heading for Anchorage, flying south, an UA plane
took off from Anchorage headed north. The UAL pilot was asked by
the AARTC (Anchorage Air Route Traffic Control) to try to spot
the UFO that JAL reported was behind it, However, by the time
the UAL got close enough (a dozen miles or so) the JAL reported
the UFO had disappeared.

That ended the sighting as far as press reports were concerned.

However.....

According to Callahan the radar tape showed that after the UAL
had passed the southbound JAL and had continued north to
Fairbanks... the radar picked up the target _following_ the UAL
plane!

You can see how the skeptics and the press treated the
well-known part of the sighting by reading that section of the
paper mentioned above at my web site.

Would they have treated the sighting differently had they known
what Callahan has recently reported?

(Of course the skeptics would have put it all down to radar
problems... but Callahan indicates that the radar operators
themselves did not believe that the radar was having any
technical problems.)

Incidently, this, 'right here', may be the first public mention
of this specific detail reported by Callahan. (However, a lot
was said way back 14 years ago when it happened, so I can't
guarantee that no one mentioned in in 1987.)








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                 Re: Cydonian Imperative 07-31-01 - 'Sphinx'

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 21:14:21 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 09:46:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative 07-31-01 - 'Sphinx'


List,

I forgot to include a link to my site when I sent out the last
piece. As usual, the new article is headlined at:

http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html

The full text is on page 22.

--Mac








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                P-47: Pflock & Randle On Today Show 08-06-01

From: Karl Pflock <Ktperehwon@AOL.COM>
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 19:33:02 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 09:50:44 -0400
Subject: P-47: Pflock & Randle On Today Show 08-06-01


A heads up for those who might be interested:

Barring a coup or hell freezing over or... I will appear (live
remote from 'Saucer Smear' Headquarters in Key West) on the
[NBC] Today Show, Monday, August 6, during the 8-9 a.m. hour as
part of "Conspiracy Week", subject Roswell, of course.

Kevin Randle will be the other guest, live but just how remote,
I don't know. :-)


Cheers,

KARL







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                      Re: To Youngs Everywhere - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 12:36:46 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 15:15:17 -0400
Subject: Re: To Youngs Everywhere - Young


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 19:12:23 EDT
 >Subject: To Youngs Everywhere
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >Come on. I won't tell nobody. And I think I speak for Albert,
 >Alfred, when I say, "Why's the sky so full of unknown thingies,
 >Daddy?" So fess up Young Bob. Tell us you are merely joshing.
 >Hmmm, or are you Lehmberg's CIA handler maybe?

Sshhh... Loose Lips Sink Ships.

My lovely wife and I just decided to retire - soon, but not soon
enough, kiddies, for some of you. Last night, She Who Must be
Obeyed enquired (my apologies to the author of Rumpole Of The
Bailey), "Are you on that computer again? When September comes,
_that_ will stop." Thus aroused from my Gates-induced turpor, I
asked, Why? Her Grace informed me that she will have a long list
of things to do around The Estate.

That's retirement? Anybody who's been through it, themselves,
got any advice?

On another subject, this is all getting to be pretty boring,
boys and girls. No flying saucers, no aliens, grey, green or
otherwise, no MIBs rapelling into back yards to seize the little
plastic balloons, no decent phony pics, anymore. Just a lot of
rooting through old dusty news clips and Guvm'nt papers. The
same old bunch of nut cases slavering in front of any crowd of
believers or "press" people. It's a slow summer, folks.

Yawn.


Love and kisses,

Old Bob

-------------
"I find your lack of faith disturbing." - D. Vader







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              CCRN: Crop Circle Research Assistance - Formation

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 17:04:57 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 15:18:39 -0400
Subject: CCRN: Crop Circle Research Assistance - Formation


CANADIAN CROP CIRCLE RESEARCH NETWORK

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: August 1, 2001


CROP CIRCLE RESEARCH ASSISTANCE - FORMATION REPORTS

Summer/Fall 2001


The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is requesting the
continued assistance of farmers, pilots, media, police/RCMP and
the general public in its investigative efforts regarding 'crop
circles', those circular or geometric patterns of flattened
field crops which continue to be reported worldwide every year,
and apart from some known hoaxes and man-made 'land art', still
remain largely unexplained.

In Canada, most formations are reported in August and September
(the typical circle 'season'), near or at harvest, primarily in
Saskatchewan, although they can also be reported year-round (in
pastures, wild grasses or even ice, for example). CCCRN, a
non-profit research organization, has been investigating this
phenomenon in-depth across the country since 1995. While like in
other countries, most circles have been appearing since the late
1970s, some reports in Canada and elsewhere go back to at least
the 1940s/1950s and possibly much earlier as far as is now
known.

Twelve formations were reported across the country in 2000, in
Alberta, Saskatchewan, Ontario and Quebec. Full reports are in
the Circle Phenomena in Canada 2000 report archive on the web
site. So far in 2001, there have been five reports as of late
July, in BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Ontario. See the Circle
Phenomena in Canada 2001 report archive on the web site for
current updates. They have also been reported in at least nine
other countries so far this year.

CCCRN is requesting that reports of formations be forwarded
either to the main office or to any of the provincial contacts
(CCCRN currently has coordinators and field research assistants
in BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec and Nova
Scotia). Contact information for all CCCRN representatives is on
the web site. It is requested that reports be forwarded as soon
after discovery as possible so that a proper investigation may
be initiated. As many formations are discovered initially by
farmers, sometimes in remote locations, it is also of particular
importance for the farming community to be aware of this
phenomenon, and to report formations when they are found.

Field studies are conducted at circle locations as they are
found, including photo and video documentation (both aerial and
ground if possible) surveying and plant/soil sampling for lab
analysis, as well as investigation of other related phenomena.
Field investigations are conducted in cooperation with the BLT
Research Team in the USA, which has been conducting serious
scientific lab studies of plant and soil samples from crop
formations in several countries for the past decade, now
including additional independent labs. All applicable laws are
strictly adhered to, and under no circumstance is a farmer's
field or other property entered without expressed permission.
Names and locations are kept confidential if requested and will
not be released publicly in those cases.

Physical deformities of the plants themselves in formations are
often found, including ruptured/stretched or sometimes 'singed'
stalk nodes (effects similar to those produced by
microwave/electromagnetic energy), severely twisted or even
seedless seed heads, 'magnetic glaze' and micrometeorite dust
particle material in some circles and reduced germination and
seedling growth of seeds from formations which were later
re-planted. Other unusual effects are also often observed, such
as equipment irregularities (malfunctioning cameras,
videocameras, compass deviations, etc.) inside some formations.
Dogs and other animals have often been noted to behave in an
agitated manner when in close proximity to some circles,
refusing to go in them. In England in particular, small 'balls
of light' have been witnessed and filmed many times hovering or
moving over fields or particular formations, sometimes the night
before a formation is found. It is this kind of evidence which
continues to indicate that there is a real, as yet unexplained
phenomenon occurring, not only in Canada, but in many countries
around the world since the formations started appearing in
greater numbers in the 1970s.

CCCRN will be conducting field research studies for Crop Watch
2001 in Saskatchewan later this summer. Futher details on this
in the next few weeks.

For more information:


MAIN OFFICE

Paul Anderson
Founder/Director

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC  V5T 2M9  Canada
Tel/Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

Provincial Branches:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/contacts.html

Circle Phenomena in Canada 2001:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/circlescanada01.html










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                        One Giant Leap for Spacekind?

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 15:35:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 15:35:10 -0400
Subject: One Giant Leap for Spacekind?




From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>


Source: Wired News

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,45704,00.html

One Giant Leap for Spacekind?
By Joanna Glasner

2:00 a.m. July 31, 2001 PDT

Supporters of the theory of Panspermia -- which posits that life
on Earth originated in space -- have unveiled fresh research
indicating the existence of living matter in the planet's upper
atmosphere.

In a paper presented Monday at an engineering conference in San
Diego, California, a team of scientists from India and Britain
said they had isolated a sample of air collected from Earth's
stratosphere that contained clumps of living cells.

Chandra Wickramasinghe, the scientist leading the project and a
prominent Panspermia researcher, described the findings as
evidence of "extraterrestrial microbial life." He touted the
research as proof for his long-held belief that life on Earth
originated from space, and not through a primordial mingling of
chemicals on the planet itself, as many scientists believe.

"If there are no flaws in the argument, it's a complete
vindication. It means we are creatures of the cosmos," said
Wickramasinghe, a professor at Cardiff University in Wales, who
presented his findings at a meeting of the International Society
for Optical Engineering. He believes the findings will have a
profound influence on future studies of the evolution of life on
Earth.

In carrying out the research, scientists collected samples of
air from as high as 41 kilometers above Earth's surface.
Wickramasinghe noted that air close to the Earth's surface is
normally unable to reach the altitude from which the samples
were drawn, which is part of the reason why he believes the
microbial life forms must have come from space.

Fellow planetary scientists reacted to the findings with some
doubt.

"My initial thought is that they're seeing bacteria from the
Earth. I don't believe that these are actually
extra-terrestrial," said Jay Melosh, a professor of planetary
science at the University of Arizona.

Although he believes it is possible that at some point in
history, microbial material moved from one planet to another
(most likely between Mars and Earth), he was skeptical that the
cells isolated in the study were the result of such an exchange.

Dr. Norman Sleep, a professor of geophysics at Stanford
University, was equally skeptical of the likelihood that the
microbes had an extraterrestrial origin. He was particularly
doubtful that the cells came from outside the solar system.

According to Sleep, it's quite possible for a volcanic eruption
or other cataclysmic event to push microbe-containing air from
earth's lower atmosphere to its upper atmosphere.

"The earth is just teeming with microbes," he said "And wherever
the wind blows, the microbes get caught up."

Sleep compared the process of verifying the extraterrestrial
origin of the microbes to proving the existence of unicorns. To
get the scientific community to support such a theory would
require substantial proof.

Wickramasinghe defended his claims of the cells'
extraterrestrial origins by noting that no cataclysmic events
had occurred at the time of the sampling (taken in January) that
would have produced the results he found.

To conduct the research, scientists at the Inter-Universities
Center for Astronomy and Astrophysics in Pune, India, collected
quantities of stratospheric air using a balloon-mounted sampling
device. They took samples at altitudes ranging from 21 to 41
kilometers above Earth's surface.

Part of the samples were sent to Cardiff University, where
researchers used a fluorescent cyanine dye to expose membranes
of living cells. In each liter, they detected between 10 and 100
living cells. Researchers said the variation of height and
distribution of the cells they found indicated that the microbes
were falling from space, rather than rising.

The next step, Wickramasinghe said, is to study the individual
microbes, sequence their DNA and attempt to culture them.
Attempts to make cultures from the cells thus far, he said, have
not been successful.








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                          Secrecy News -- 08/01/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@igc.org>
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 14:11:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 08:20:03 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/01/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
August 1, 2001

**EUROPEAN UNION STRIVES FOR OPENNESS
**NEW BILL WOULD LIMIT DOE POLYGRAPHS
**WHEN VIRUS HYSTERIA STRIKES


EUROPEAN UNION STRIVES FOR OPENNESS

The European Commission issued a White Paper last week that aims to address
widespread public dissatisfaction with politics by increasing the openness
and accountability of European Union institutions.

"Many Europeans feel alienated from the Union's work," according to the
White Paper, and they "no longer trust the complex system to deliver what
they want."

The White Paper identifies five principles that define "good governance":
Openness, Participation, Accountability, Effectiveness, and Coherence.  The
Paper goes on to identify proposed changes in European Union policy derived
from these principles.

"We simply cannot go on as we are," said European Commission President
Romano Prodi.  "The White Paper is not an instant cure for everything, but
it is a serious attempt to address the concerns that many people have."

To a American reader, the White Paper's diagnosis of public disenchantment
with politics is familiar.  Its prescription, however, may seem a little
naive in its faith that political life can be reinvigorated through
procedural changes.  Even so, it is a refreshing reminder that political
institutions are not simply inherited, but are also maintained and can be
recreated by regular people.

"European Governance -- A White Paper" was adopted by the European
Commission on July 25 and published for public comment here:

http://europa.eu.int/comm/governance/white_paper/index_en.htm


NEW BILL WOULD LIMIT DOE POLYGRAPHS

A bill introduced in the Senate yesterday by Sen. Pete Domenici
and Sen. Jeff Bingaman would reduce the number of Department of
Energy (DOE) employees and contractors who are subject to
polygraph testing, thereby reversing congressional action taken
last year.

"The effect of past legislation was to require polygraphs for
very broad categories of workers in DOE and in our DOE weapons
labs and plants," said Senator Domenici.  "But the categories
specified are really much too broad, some don't even refer to
security-related issues."

Senator Domenici noted further that "Polygraphs are simply not
viewed as scientifically credible by Laboratory staff."

Senator Bingaman echoed that observation: "I've heard directly
from many laboratory employees who question the viability of
polygraphs and who have raised legitimate questions about its
accuracy, reliability, and usefulness."

"It has become clear that the [existing] provision has had a
chilling effect on current and potential employees at the
laboratories in a way that could risk the future health of the
workforce at the laboratories," Senator Bingaman said.

The new bill would reduce the number of DOE employees and
contractors subject to the polygraph, limiting testing to those
who have access to "the most sensitive" nuclear weapons secrets.

Senator Bingaman stressed that the proposed legislation is an
"interim" measure and that further changes to DOE polygraph
policy would be expected after a National Academy of Sciences
study is completed next year.

See the July 31 floor statements of Senators Domenici and
Bingaman introducing their new bill (S. 1276) here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/s073101.html

Among the considerable resources on polygraph testing offered by
polygraph opponent George Maschke on his web site
AntiPolygraph.org, this haiku was found:

What is polygraph?
The Greek means "many writings,"
but who can read them?


WHEN VIRUS HYSTERIA STRIKES

The Internet did not come crashing down again today, despite the
inescapable warnings that the predatory Code Red worm would
unleash its fury last night.

One might hope that each such Internet disaster that fails to
come to pass would lead to a moderation of official rhetoric and
a more realistic assessment of the threat from cyber-terrorism
and information warfare.

The Washington Times reported in a remarkable story today that
Israel has been a target of particularly intense cyber-attacks
from Islamic militants and others.  But even this focused
"cyber-jihad" has produced limited consequences, the Times
observed:

"Despite recent fears -- often the subject of novels -- that
hackers could cause airplanes to crash, traffic lights to
misfire and electric or water systems to go haywire, [an]
Israeli official said, 'I've never heard of a single successful
cyber terrorist attack' against these institutions."

The web site Vmyths.com offers pointed commentary that seeks to
deflate exaggerated or self-serving claims about the threat of
computer viruses. Their resources include a list of things to
remember "when virus hysteria strikes."  See:

http://vmyths.com/index.cfm

******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation
of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message: subscribe
secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org







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                    Re: To Youngs Everywhere - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 15:37:59 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 08:22:11 -0400
Subject: Re: To Youngs Everywhere - Mortellaro


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 12:36:46 EDT
 >Subject: Re: To Youngs Everywhere
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 19:12:23 EDT
 >>Subject: To Youngs Everywhere
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>Come on. I won't tell nobody. And I think I speak for Albert,
 >>Alfred, when I say, "Why's the sky so full of unknown thingies,
 >>Daddy?" So fess up Young Bob. Tell us you are merely joshing.
 >>Hmmm, or are you Lehmberg's CIA handler maybe?

 >Sshhh... Loose Lips Sink Ships.

 >My lovely wife and I just decided to retire - soon, but not soon
 >enough, kiddies, for some of you. Last night, She Who Must be
 >Obeyed enquired (my apologies to the author of Rumpole Of The
 >Bailey), "Are you on that computer again? When September comes,
 >_that_ will stop." Thus aroused from my Gates-induced turpor, I
 >asked, Why? Her Grace informed me that she will have a long list
 >of things to do around The Estate.

 >That's retirement? Anybody who's been through it, themselves,
 >got any advice?

 >On another subject, this is all getting to be pretty boring,
 >boys and girls. No flying saucers, no aliens, grey, green or
 >otherwise, no MIBs rapelling into back yards to seize the little
 >plastic balloons, no decent phony pics, anymore. Just a lot of
 >rooting through old dusty news clips and Guvm'nt papers. The
 >same old bunch of nut cases slavering in front of any crowd of
 >believers or "press" people. It's a slow summer, folks.

 >Yawn.


 >Love and kisses,

 >Old Bob

 >-------------
 >"I find your lack of faith disturbing." - D. Vader

Dearest List, Old Bob, Errol and her Highny ... Highness,

To the Manor Born. Or at least conceived. To retire is to die. I
died about 1993, when I semiretired. It was then that my
memories of abduction and other assorted assertable certifiable
certitude began to naw at me. So if you are aksing my advise on
whether or not to retire... here, let me help you with that.

My beloved Highny, Her Grace, the lovely Rosemarie, loved it
when I retired. She let me do whatever she wanted me to do. And
of course, as she is disabled with MS, I did it. Howsumever in
our NEW home, I have an office all by my lonesome self. It's got
my library, my toys, ham radio, computers, antique brass
telephone with the scissors extender (they call this the
lollipop phone, also the candlestick phone). Additional are all
my "The Truth is Out There" signs and an Smart LED exit sign I
designed some time back. To be found there are my gun
collections, long, short and shot... guns in a safe. The safe
is a hunnert years old. Also to be found there is the most
wonderful little doggie you ever seen in yous life. A PUG. A
short and small version of the ugly Bull, English Bull.

I am told that I resemble both. But most especially the Bull.

Sigh

I am surrounded by old.

So, have I answered your queer querry? No? Oh yea of little
fate.


Morty
Certified Alta Cocka







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                        Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 13:46:03 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 08:26:12 -0400
Subject: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'


ROSWELL: Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe

by Karl Pflock

reviewed by Mac Tonnies

Pflock's 'Roswell' is probably one of the most important
contributions to ufology in the last ten years. Pflock's
thorough exploration of the events of July, 1947 are revealing,
insightful, and - best of all - credible. 'Roswell' is healthy
skepticism with muscle and intellect, and a positively delicious
read for truth-seekers disillusioned by Kal Korff's whiny,
unconvincing tome on the subject.

Like Pflock, I've long been a Roswell agnostic. The evidence
assembled here has, I'm afraid, pushed me into the skeptics'
corner for good. Maybe I'm wrong - and, to be sure, there's
always that slightly disturbing wish that I am - and new
evidence will surface that makes the extraterrestrial crash
hypothesis more attractive. In the meantime, Pflock's work is
very likely to remain the definitive resource on the subject.

There's only one catch: to appreciate 'Roswell', it's best to be
versed in dissenting opinions. I highly recommend Kevin Randle's
fascinating 'The Roswell Encyclopedia' and Stanton Friedman's
'TOP SECRET/MAJIC' as cogent arguments from the 'believers'
perspective.

http://www.geocities.com/macbot/ufobooks.html








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                       Re: To Youngs Everywhere - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 21:22:31 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 08:28:46 -0400
Subject: Re: To Youngs Everywhere - Hall


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 12:36:46 EDT
 >Subject: Re: To Youngs Everywhere
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 19:12:23 EDT
 >>Subject: To Youngs Everywhere
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >My lovely wife and I just decided to retire - soon, but not soon
 >enough, kiddies, for some of you. Last night, She Who Must be
 >Obeyed enquired (my apologies to the author of Rumpole Of The
 >Bailey), "Are you on that computer again? When September comes,
 >_that_ will stop." Thus aroused from my Gates-induced turpor, I
 >asked, Why? Her Grace informed me that she will have a long list
 >of things to do around The Estate.

 >That's retirement? Anybody who's been through it, themselves,
 >got any advice?

 >On another subject, this is all getting to be pretty boring,
 >boys and girls. No flying saucers, no aliens, grey, green or
 >otherwise, no MIBs rapelling into back yards to seize the little
 >plastic balloons, no decent phony pics, anymore. Just a lot of
 >rooting through old dusty news clips and Guvm'nt papers. The
 >same old bunch of nut cases slavering in front of any crowd of
 >believers or "press" people. It's a slow summer, folks.

 >Yawn.

 >Love and kisses,

 >Old Bob

 >"I find your lack of faith disturbing." - D. Vader

Bob,

And I find your skeptibunking mentality, which prefers totally
irrational and counter-to-fact "answers" to a simple admission
that some odd and unexplained things are being seen which do,
indeed, suggest (at least) an extraordinary phenomenon, even
more disturbing. Your wife is right. If you think it's all a
joke, then clearly you should stop wasting your time (and
offending her) by demeaning people who disagree with you and
re-set your priorities. You have offered very little to serious
UFO research. All you do is repeat the mantra: Non potest, ergo
non est.

In that connection, if you want to claim that AMS people were
not skywatching during the 1973 Ohio helicopter case, then it is
your responsibility to do the research that confirms it. I'm not
going to do your research for you. I went through this exact
thing with your apparent idol, Phil Klass, who kept trying to
shift the responsibility to me to confirm his (unfounded)
skeptibunking notions.

Happy retirement. I have been semi-retired for about five years
and it ain't easy, especially when you lack orthodox pensions
and retirement funds.


Dick








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                           THE WATCHDOG - 08-01-01

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 14:38:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 08:30:39 -0400
Subject: THE WATCHDOG - 08-01-01


UFOWATCHDOG.COM
"Don't Trip On Your Open Mind"
http://www.ufowatchdog.com


***NEWS***

~ Reed Hoax: How Many Lies Are Enough?
~ Pure Hemoglobin Found Again In Mutilation Case
~ UFOs and Alien In Pop Culture
~ Professor Invites E-Mails from outer Space
~ Scientists Claim Evidence of Life In Outer Space
~ Meteorites Don't Pop Corn
~ Nicaragua: UFO Over Granada?
~ The Arthur Kll Lights: A View from the Opposite Shore
~ Bull Mutilations Leave Texas Ranchers Guessing

***UFO DIRTBAG OF THE MONTH, AUGUST 2001***

Art Bell...In His Own Words







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                CCCRN News: Fields of Dreams Webcast Delayed

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 23:26:33 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 08:33:28 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Fields of Dreams Webcast Delayed


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

August 1, 2001

_____________________________


DELAYED - FIELDS OF DREAMS WEBCAST RADIO SHOW

Please note, with apologies, that due to technical problems
originating at the NSPN station, the broadcast start of August 1
for NSPN, including CCCRN's Fields of Dreams, has been delayed
until Wednesday next week. More info on specific show time in
the next few days. Next month the show will resume its normal
time of the first Wednesday each month.

Also check the NSPN and CCCRN web sites for updates:

http://www.nightsearch.net

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/fieldsofdreams.html


____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
information on other CCCRN-related projects and events.








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                         Rendlesham Skywatch Report

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 05:46:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 08:37:43 -0400
Subject: Rendlesham Skywatch Report


Hi All,

http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/SPIrwatch.htm

Is the link to the report, by Malcolm Robinson of SPI (UK),
on the recent sky watch initiative at Rendlesham Forest.

That watch was the first of many to be held across the UK.
The aim is to bring UFO groups in the UK together on a night
out, and to get to know each other.


Regards,

Roy..








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                       Re: Marcia Smith Letter - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 02:03:00 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 08:39:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Marcia Smith Letter - Gates


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 8 Jul 2001 19:09:05 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Marcia Smith Letter

 >Ms. Smith,

 >I have written you to get clarification from you about a story
 >that is being told about a report you may have written back in
 >the days of the Carter administration. I am a researcher here in
 >Canada working on stories and documents related to U.S.
 >Presidents and the UFO phenomena.

 >The story I am interested in is being told by Christic Institute
 >Director Daniel Sheehan, who has publically, on a number of
 >occasions, told about his personal involvement inside the CRS.
 >He has also confirmed these statement to me by phone. For the
 >record, Daniel has stated that the reports he was helping with,
 >dealt with UFOs and extraterrestrial intelligence. He is on
 >record as stating these reports were researched and written up
 >in 1977 after President Carter came to office.

Its almost been a month on this one. Has _anybody_ ever gotten
an email from this Marcia Smith? I personally suspect that
nobody will and she will choose to press the delete key and not
respond.

Cheers,

Robert








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               Re: No Roswell At MUFON 2001 Symposium - Gates

From: Robert Gates < RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 02:15:23 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 08:43:10 -0400
Subject: Re: No Roswell At MUFON 2001 Symposium - Gates


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 18:17:08 EDT
 >Subject: No Roswell At MUFON 2001 Symposium
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >I attended the recent MUFON Symposium in Irvine, Calif., this
 >past weekend and found one very strange thing: There was
 >virtually nothing about Roswell at the conference, aside from
 >passing references.

 >There were almost zero Roswell books (about 5 copies of Stan
 >Friedman's UFO Crash at Corona). The largest book vendor was
 >dumbfounded when I asked where their Roswell books were. He
 >spent half an hour looking and was only able to come up with one
 >copy entitled 'Chinese Roswell'. Karl Pflock's new Roswell book
 >was nowhere to be seen.


Hi Brad,

IMO Roswell is "mined out" so to speak. All the books that could
have been written have been including Kevin's 'Roswell
Encylopedia'. The story has been poured over, milked and
re-mined, so to speak, so many times it reminds me of a mine
that has very little, if anything, left.

Short of a new witness(es) coming forward with _verifiable_
information there is really very little left to cover. Roswell
was at its 'peak' during the 50th anniversary hype and even
through a couple of years ago. Now it's old, old news, so to
speak.

Bottom line is unless the government steps forward with
documentation and information, Roswell is pretty much a
backburner item - i.e. get an update every 2 or 5 years, so to
speak.


Cheers,

Robert







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                 Re: Clinton, OSTP, and UFOs Part 3 - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 03:14:07 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 08:47:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Clinton, OSTP, and UFOs Part 3 - Hatch


 >Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 02:34:42 +0200
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Clinton, OSTP, and UFOs Part 3

 >>Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 10:01:22 -0700
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Clinton, OSTP, and UFOs Part 3

<snip>

 >Hi Larry,

 >I hope you and all fellow Listerions are well. Thanks for
 >welcoming me back aboard. In case you are not the only one who
 >missed me I am responding on the list... I disappeared for two
 >months because at the end of May I received a 5am phone call
 >that my mother just had a massive heart attack. I caught the
 >next flight from Berlin to Washington, D.C. She had to get a
 >multiple bypass surgery, had two strokes, and is partially
 >recovering in a rehab ward. I really feel for John Velez.

 >I also had time there to have secret cabals with a few prominent
 >fellow members of the 'UFO Elite'. Remember, I was one of the
 >List member Listerions implicated as a member of a secret league
 >by someone who found out he was not welcome on UpDates.

 >I just got back, rested, and caught up on a massive amount of
 >accumulated posts. I had periodically been able to keep track of
 >the themes on this List on Dick Hall's computer, as he was
 >gracious enough to offer good cheer and time for me to research
 >in the uncensored Blue Book files. They are located underground
 >his house, in one of the command bunkers of the 'UFO Elite'.

 >There are also other members who have facilities and are trying
 >to keep the roaring train of Ufology heading on the right
 >tracks, to head somewhere and not keep running around in circles
 >like headless chickens. Remember:

 >"There are no headless rubber chickens in the Universe".

 >[As told to me by Col. 'Gizzard' Sanders on the battlefield of
 >the chicken livers. He also told me that the Greys are running a
 >psychic Jihad. Could that be true?]

 >I am still very jetlagged. But in my post above I was asking
 >Grant Cameron who made that statement because he had just been
 >quoting from Scott Jones. That is a rather surprising statement
 >if it indeed came from Gibbons. It is contrary to his position
 >regarding UFOs.

 >If no one has answered your question yet, I would have to rest,
 >read the post again, and then gather my thoughts, if I can find
 >my dustbunny. Perhaps Grant can explain it to both of us?

 >Larry, in late September or so (as my music schedule will allow)
 >I hope to get back out for a visit to my old turf in California.
 >We can get together and slurp some of Emma's artichoke soup,
 >with UFOs for crackers to sop up stories with. Another meeting
 >of the cabal, a Redwood ritual.

 >Now that Robert Hanson sold the Russians all of the United
 >States Continuity of Government secret underground locations
 >(the jewel in the crown), I must get started on my underground
 >elite command center for European UFOmania refugees.


Hello Josh (and all):

Just a few years ago I was going thru an awful mess, both
parents in and out of the hospital until they died.

Its an awful mess that just about everyone goes thru, and nobody
is ready for it. Just terrible.

Right now my problems are limited to email, small potatoes in
comparison.

I managed to pull in 36 messages from Monday (late July)
including the above, but that's it. Everything sent to me since
then is either lost, in limbo, and most likely bounced as if I
don't exist.

Two one-hour elevator-music sessions finally got me to a human
who could only help a little. Meanwhile, it seems a new email
address here might help a bit:

Larry Hatch <lh1002797@onemain.com>

I have no idea if my old email address is still valid. Test
messages sent to both never come back in! I haven't been able to
pull in a single message since Monday.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch









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             Re: UFO Crash On Plains Of St. Augustin? - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 08:23:20 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 08:50:01 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Crash On Plains Of St. Augustin? - Friedman


 >Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 17:13:42 -0300
 >From: Thiago Luiz Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: UFO Crash On Plains Of St. Augustin?

 >Does anyone have information or link about the alleged UFO crash
 >at Plains of Saint Agustin in 1947?


Try reading my book 'Crash At Corona' which discusses it in detail.


Stanton Friedman









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                      Re: To Youngs Everywhere - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 10:00:51 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 07:00:44 -0400
Subject: Re: To Youngs Everywhere - Young


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: To Youngs Everywhere
 >Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 21:22:31 +0000

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 09:04:40 EDT
 >>Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 11:00:56 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Serious Research - Young

 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Re: Serious Research
 >>>Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 20:22:24 -0000

<snip>

 >if you want to claim that AMS people were
 >not skywatching during the 1973 Ohio helicopter case, then it is
 >your responsibility to do the research that confirms it. I'm not
 >going to do your research for you.

But Dick, _you_ are the one who said, "As it turns out, I do
have the AMS fireball list for 1973 in my file (I had quite
candidly forgotten that), and it shows no fireball on or near
the date in question."

And after I asked if there were observers in Ohio you
responded,

 >>>AMS obviously has meteor observers in Ohio. Try again!

But, the point, of course, is were there any observing during
the event?

If you have the records, why don't you just check? If you want
to play games, and claim that I have not added anything to
"serious UFO research", than I suppose the entire List can come
to the obvious conclusion: that either you don't have the AMS
records or there is no evidence that any AMS observers were
observing during the Coyne incident.


Clear skies

Bob Young

--------------
Expect no further word or sign
from me.
Your own will is whole,
upright, and free
and it would be wrong not to do
as it bids you,
therefore I crown and miter
you over yourself.

Virgil to the Pilgrim, facing the wall of purifying fire
Canto XXVII of Purgatorio








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                 Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 09:09:48 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 08:18:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Gehrman


 >Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 13:46:03 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >To: UfoUpdates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >ROSWELL: Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe

 >by Karl Pflock

 >reviewed by Mac Tonnies

 >Pflock's 'Roswell' is probably one of the most important
 >contributions to ufology in the last ten years. Pflock's
 >thorough exploration of the events of July, 1947 are revealing,
 >insightful, and - best of all - credible. 'Roswell' is healthy
 >skepticism with muscle and intellect, and a positively delicious
 >read for truth-seekers disillusioned by Kal Korff's whiny,
 >unconvincing tome on the subject.

I haven't read either Korff's or Pflock's books but if they
maintain that Roswell is something of a collective myth, then
both are dead wrong and no amount of "skepticism with muscle"
will change that. The Forth Worth pictures of the Roswell debris
proves, beyond any shadow of doubt, that the debris on Gen.
Ramey's office floor is not a balloon, mogul or otherwise. You
have the FW photos on the AA CDs I sent. Why not give them a
closer examination before you draw any mistaken conclusions.

Roswell will never be credibly debunked until there is a
convincing explanation as to why the debris in the AA footage is
almost identical in form, shape and design of symbols, to the
debris in Gen. Ramey's office.

 >Like Pflock, I've long been a Roswell agnostic. The evidence
 >assembled here has, I'm afraid, pushed me into the skeptics'
 >corner for good. Maybe I'm wrong - and, to be sure, there's
 >always that slightly disturbing wish that I am - and new
 >evidence will surface that makes the extraterrestrial crash
 >hypothesis more attractive. In the meantime, Pflock's work is
 >very likely to remain the definitive resource on the subject.

It is not at all clear that the Roswell craft and creatures are
ET. There are other more convincing explanations. My position
has always been that they are probably not ET but the "Ancient
Ones (Gods)" mentioned by almost all prehistoric societies and
have lived here ( on earth and in our solar system) for many
moons.

 >There's only one catch: to appreciate 'Roswell', it's best to be
 >versed in dissenting opinions. I highly recommend Kevin Randle's
 >fascinating 'The Roswell Encyclopedia' and Stanton Friedman's
 >'TOP SECRET/MAJIC' as cogent arguments from the 'believers'
 >perspective.

The most importent bit of "dissenting opinion" all Roswell
researchers need is the AA CD set which can be purchased for
$15.


Ed












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                  Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 12:35:46 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 08:20:51 -0400
Subject: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data


Hi everyone.

Two years ago a team from Lawrence Berkley Lab (LBL) announced
the discovery of two previously unknown elements, 118 and 116.

Now that it has been announced that Element 118 (and possibly
Element 116 which was observed from the decay of Element 118)
was not detected, there is renewed doubt that other undiscovered
heavy elements such as the predicted stable Elements 114 and 115
may not exist either. See below for the retraction story.

The still undiscovered Element 115 is famous for Bob Lazar, a
physicist who allegedly worked at Area-51 on ET technology, and
his incredible claims that this element exhibited anti-gravity
properties which was used in the propulsion system of certain
recovered/acquired ET spacecraft or UFOs (from Zeta Reticulli?).

Of course, one can easily prove something exists just by showing
but it is much more difficult to prove something does not exist
with a story (like Lazar's), even if it is a true one.

Nick Balaskas

-------------

PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 550  August 1, 2001
by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein, and James Riordon

ELEMENT 118 HAS BEEN ERASED FROM THE PERIODIC TABLE.

In 1999 scientists at LBL reported evidence for element 118 in
high energy lead-krypton interactions.

http://www.aip.org/enews/physnews/1999/split/pnu432-1.htm

Follow-up experiments at LBL and elsewhere (such as the GSI lab
in Germany) have failed to confirm the results. The LBL
scientists have now re-analyzed their data and conclude that the
original evidence was spurious. In an article submitted to
Physical Review Letters, they retract their claim for the
discovery of element 118.

(LBL press release, 27 July 2001.)

<snip>







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                              Two UFO Magazines

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 14:17:24 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 08:24:25 -0400
Subject: Two UFO Magazines


The Australian UFOlogist is now bi-monthly, Vol 5, #1 is 68
pages long. It is broad appeal magazine. (Order from Arcturus,
rgirard321@aol.com or from Earthlink Publication
ufologist@powerup.com.au

The current issue has two articles by Bill Chalker, one
expanding on his IUR article 'Strange Evidence' and one on the
1953 Drury film (the Holy Grail of Australian Ufology). Keith
Roberts tells about the Tasmanian scene. The Tasmanian UFO
Investigation Centre is one of my favorites. If you like big
foot, he has an Australian cousin according to Rex Gilroy. The
Alice Spring 2nd March 2001 Balloon Flight Flop, well this is a
bit much for me, but something may have hit NASA's balloon
according to a video taken at the time. Mark Moravec writes on
Cynthia Hind's passing. Especially interesting to me was
Abdcution Seduction by Matthew Favaloro, it isn't sex, it's an
ordeal.

There is more and next issue will have the second part of Bill's
Drury article and 'Airships In The Antipodes'.

VSD Hors Serie in France has come out with the third UFO
magazine, OVNIS, USA, Les Raisons du Secret. If you can read
French you will want this magazine, even if you can't the
illustrations are worth it. Some of this material is well known
to US readers like the Flatwoods Monster and the 700 Blue Book
unknowns. Bernard Thouanel, an aviation journalist is chief
editor, so he has a number of pilot and aviation related
articles starting with the 21 Jan 2001 case in Siberia. Bernard
visited NORAD at Cheyenne Mountain. He describes the setup.
Asked about UFOs the answer was that NORAD's mission is to
protect North America. The mission and budget do not allow for
investigating UFOs. There are still incidents by not as many as
in previous years. His pictures from the NORAD visit are great!

Yours truly wrote an article on JANAP146 and CIRVIS reports. It
is already outdated thanks to a little gem that Ann Druffle
found in her file. JANAP 146 is no more, but CIRVIS reports
continue.

There is an article the 16 March 1967 incident at a Malmstom AFB
missile site and an interview with Robert Salas.

There is also interviews with LTC Wayne Matton, USAF, retired,
who now researches aviation history at Holloman AFB, New Mexico.

Dominique Weinstein writes on the RB-47 case of 17 July 1957.

News stand magazines need photos so there are articles on the
George Stock's 1952 Passaic, New Jersey photo and William A.
Rhodes tells his side of the July 1947 photographs used by just
about everyone, but for which Rhodes seldom gets credit, let
alone any money.

Dr. Peter Sturrock is interviewed on Poncantico conference and
other matters. Leik Myrabo and Franklin Mead ham it up as
"men-in-black" in a picture accompanying an article on their
"Lightcraft" experiments.

Does something which is sometimes called UFO pose a danger to
air traffic? That question is covered with an information about
NARCAP and Dr. Richard Haines.

Capt. Willis T. Sperry has passed away. He gave one last
interview to the Sign Historical Group last year. HIs
observation is revisited here. There are also articles on other
airline pilot sightings. Finally, articles on near earth
astroids and the supposed Fermi paradox round out the issue.

I am impressed by some of the illustrations and photo published
here. A cover photo of the Thunderbirds shows something strange,
but without further information, I take it to be a mirage or a
film flaw. Bernard assures me it is not, and that he knows the
photographer. If we could have news stand material like this in
the US we might make some progress. The historical aspect was
supplied in some cases by material from oral history interviews
by Sign Historical Group members. Bernard accompanied and
participated in Tom Tulien's oral histories research trip
through the western US last year.

Perhaps a small number of the VSD magazines could be made
available for Girard to sell.


Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331, USA
(860) 546-9135







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               Re: No Roswell At MUFON 2001 Symposium - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 15:44:13 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 08:26:43 -0400
Subject: Re: No Roswell At MUFON 2001 Symposium - Sparks


 >From: Robert Gates < RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 02:15:23 EDT
 >Subject: Re: No Roswell At MUFON 2001 Symposium
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 18:17:08 EDT
 >>Subject: No Roswell At MUFON 2001 Symposium
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>I attended the recent MUFON Symposium in Irvine, Calif., this
 >>past weekend and found one very strange thing: There was
 >>virtually nothing about Roswell at the conference, aside from
 >>passing references.

 >>There were almost zero Roswell books (about 5 copies of Stan
 >>Friedman's UFO Crash at Corona). The largest book vendor was
 >>dumbfounded when I asked where their Roswell books were. He
 >>spent half an hour looking and was only able to come up with one
 >>copy entitled 'Chinese Roswell'. Karl Pflock's new Roswell book
 >>was nowhere to be seen.


 >Hi Brad,

 >IMO Roswell is "mined out" so to speak. All the books that could
 >have been written have been including Kevin's 'Roswell
 >Encylopedia'. The story has been poured over, milked and
 >re-mined, so to speak, so many times it reminds me of a mine
 >that has very little, if anything, left.

 >Short of a new witness(es) coming forward with _verifiable_
 >information there is really very little left to cover. Roswell
 >was at its 'peak' during the 50th anniversary hype and even
 >through a couple of years ago. Now it's old, old news, so to
 >speak.

 >Bottom line is unless the government steps forward with
 >documentation and information, Roswell is pretty much a
 >backburner item - i.e. get an update every 2 or 5 years, so to
 >speak.


Robert,

I think developments will overturn your prediction within about
a year. See Pflock's book, p. 211 n. 12.


Brad








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                      Re: Marcia Smith Letter - Cameron

From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
Date: 2 Aug 2001 15:24:23 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 09:39:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Marcia Smith Letter - Cameron


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 02:03:00 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Marcia Smith Letter
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: 8 Jul 2001 19:09:05 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Marcia Smith Letter

 >>Ms. Smith,

 >>I have written you to get clarification from you about a story
 >>that is being told about a report you may have written back in
 >>the days of the Carter administration. I am a researcher here in
 >>Canada working on stories and documents related to U.S.
 >>Presidents and the UFO phenomena.

 >>The story I am interested in is being told by Christic Institute
 >>Director Daniel Sheehan, who has publically, on a number of
 >>occasions, told about his personal involvement inside the CRS.
 >>He has also confirmed these statement to me by phone. For the
 >>record, Daniel has stated that the reports he was helping with,
 >>dealt with UFOs and extraterrestrial intelligence. He is on
 >>record as stating these reports were researched and written up
 >>in 1977 after President Carter came to office.

 >Its almost been a month on this one. Has _anybody_ ever gotten
 >an email from this Marcia Smith? I personally suspect that
 >nobody will and she will choose to press the delete key and not
 >respond.

I didn't expect Smith to answer the letter, as she publically
drags herself into a no-win situation no matter what she says.

Apparently Sheehan himself was not too happy with the wording of
my E-mail request to Smith. Moreover, I was contacted by someone
who said I had actually messed up an interview they planned with
Marcia. I was encouraged not to do a phone interview I had
planned.

In short we both sit and wait, but we will not wait forever. I
think the final whistle will go off soon, and the investigation
will continue.

Phil Klass contacted me for details on the transcript. It
appears he is doing some sort of investigation or is doing a
write-up for his newsletter. I encouraged him to contact Smith
as a part of any investigation he might be doing, as his
Aviation Leak background has probably brought him into contact
with Smith in the past.

If anyone seeks Klass publish anything on this Sheehan saga, I
hope they will be nice enough to inform ths List. The same goes
for James Obreg who provided me Smith's E-mail, and knows Smith
well. Perhaps these two should be interviewed?


Grant







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                   Antiques, Blue Whiteners & Missing Time

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 19:03:37 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 09:46:51 -0400
Subject: Antiques, Blue Whiteners & Missing Time


For many, many years, I and my wife traveled extensively by car
on antique hunting trips. On every single Friday, no matter who
it was I worked for, I and Rosie would take off about three PM
and head in the general direction of anywhere. Usually the
anywhere was W.S.W. to Pennsylvania, to the so-called
Pennsylvania Dutch country... Blue Ball and Intercourse are real
names for real towns in the PD (Pennsylvania Dutch) country.
Usually we were able to find nineteenth century kerosene lamps
in brass or nickel over brass for less than ten bucks. Today
some of these are a hundred times that, most at least ten or
twenty times that. A good investment.

But on the way to PD country, on the Pennsylvania Turnpike, we
would pass under some overhead lights and suddenly, they would
wink out. I would call out to Rosie and say, "Did you see that?"
She was usually sleeping, in preparation for getting up at five
AM to get a jump on other crazy collectors who wanted what we
wanted.

But one time, on one of these trips, she was wide awake when it
happened. She was surprised. During this same trip, we saw a
strange light pacing us and just to the north of us. Thinking it
was a bright planet (yes, even I had that thought and I am no
relation to anyone named Klass or Young), thinking it was a
bright planet I gave it no consequence.

Until we got to the clearing in the highway, close to the town
we were headed for. It was the dead of winter. We were driving
in a rented car with front wheel drive and it was snowing. So
thinking that there may have been a break in the clouds, we were
seeing a planet or the moon. But on getting to that clearing,
there were no trees blocking our view so we were able to see the
light much better.

It was a bright, pure white light. The kind with (seemingly) a
large blue component. So as to be more clear, the more blue you
add to the wash, the brighter the white appears. Same kind of
thing. The light proceeded to follow us, but as we moved from a
Westerly direction to a Southerly direction, it swung around
rapidly, and followed us. The place we were staying was very
close by to this intersection, so we registered, got into our
room and then to dinner.

After dinner we went to sleep in preparation for a weekend of
buying lamps. But that night, there was a super bright light
outside out motel room from which a solid blue light emanated,
piercing the walls of the motel. The rest is unknown. Except for
the fact that we woke up feeling unwell, with extreme fatigue,
backaches, headaches, and could not do any antiquing that
weekend. Much as we've tried, there are no other memories of
this event, except that we both share the exact same memories of
the events preceding and including the sudden appearance of the
solid blue light.

Up until that time, Rosie had never had an experience of which
she was aware. This occurred in the 1980's. And shortly
thereafter, she developed full blown Multiple Sclerosis. Whether
or not this event had anything to do with the MS is of course,
unknown. But one thing is known. Something happened that night.
Something strange. Like the Lady Day song, "Something Strange."

When one has a _lifetime_ of such high strangeness, events or
perceived events which occur literally hundreds of times over
the course of a life, along with memories, feelings and a sense
of complete reality to the memories, not dreams, but a reality
of the events having happened... when you cannot define them in
any way, when they fit no profile, no paradigm except one... UFO
and abduction phenoms, then what would you do?

How's about you, Old Bob? Got any bright ideas?

Maybe we should aks Father Balducci.


Jim
President








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                 UFO Taped By WTVQ News Lexington, Kentucky

From: Kenny Young <ufo@FUSE.NET>
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 00:43:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 09:53:23 -0400
Subject: UFO Taped By WTVQ News Lexington, Kentucky


A television news crew from Lexington, Kentucky suspects that
they have captured a strange aerial object on videotape.

WTVQ-TV Newschannel 36, an ABC affiliate in Lexington, reported
on their 11:00 p.m. newscast that one of their videographers
documented the suspected oddity on Thursday, August 2, 2001 over
the city. Cincinnati resident Chris Heiert caught the story as
it was broadcast from the Lexington television station and
quickly notified me of the report.

Within minutes of receiving the information I had placed a call
to the news station and was lucky to speak with the videographer
at 11:20 p.m. while the news program was still in live
production.

The videographer, [name on file, deleted for privacy at this
time], informed that he had been interviewing someone at a car
wash on Richmond Road for a news segment scheduled for Friday's
newscast. The person being interviewed at around 5:30 p.m. first
spotted the object and gestured for the news crew to take
notice.

"I looked in that direction and this thing was visibly seen with
the naked eye," the videographer said, "so I swung my camera
around to get a shot of it."

"I suppose I ran about one minute of tape on it," he informed.

According to the WTVQ-TV videographer, the object seemed to
hover in place with no significant upward or downward motion and
was a large circular object with dome-shaped center roughly the
size of a car or van, according to his estimates.

"We've been playing the tape around here in the newsroom today
and there is a lot of debate about what it is. Some say it looks
like a turtle. Others suggested it was a balloon of some sort,
but I don't think it's a balloon."

The videographer informed that there were several peculiar items
about the recording.

"This is where it gets weird," he said. "Coming out from the
dome are little legs that curve down like triangles or
something, and it rotates."

"It has caused a lot of debate here but I'm convinced it is not
a balloon," he said.

He informed that from his vantage point at the car wash and
distance the object was from his vantage point, no sound could
be heard due to the ambient noise.

When asked how big the object was and how far away it was from
him, he said: "It looked big, but it's hard to say judging
distance from this location. The object was stationary at about
a 45 degree angle."

The videographer added that in his haste to swing the camera
around, he was not mindful to acquire a frame of reference in
the shot, such as a telephone pole or other foreground landmark
that would help with measurements. There is only a brief instant
where a foreground object can be seen and the camera was not
mounted on a tripod, being held on his shoulder for the duration
of the recording.

He described the object as having no smoke and no lights, being
about the size of a car or van.

When asked how the object departed from view, the videographer
informed that after recording the object, he had set the camera
down to go back to the pre-planned interview and when the object
had evidently departed from view at some point during the
interview. He expressed frustration at not being able to devote
more attention to the object.

The videotape format used was BetaCam and the tape will be
stored at the station. Arrangements have been made for me to
acquire a copy of the recording on a digital tape. The news
station is not equipped with digital video recording equipment
so I will furnish the necessary recording instruments required.

The WTVQ videographer informed that he had not sought outside
consultation to review the tape, such as an astronomer or
military consultant. He did advise that the airport was called
but their reaction to the inquiry was humorous.

"Until we know otherwise, it's what you want it to be," the
videographer said. "I would like to have this explained
somehow."

The videographer asked if I knew of a way he could make money
from the tape and I gave him my honest thoughts that UFO
videotapes are generally used without compensation. I cited an
example from a 1994 UFO videotape in Clermont County, Ohio where
producers from REAL TV inquired about usage of a recording of a
police cruiser observing a suspected UFO but the producers
became disinterested when the person who documented the incident
requested compensation. I added that if a recording were to
become a national controversy like the Rodney King roadside
beating video, then certain monies might be possible. But I
expressed skepticism of any profit from the material and added
that videotapes of UFOs are frequently reported and often
explained. He was unfamiliar with the process and not certain if
he could sell the recording, and also not aware that suspected
UFOs are often said to be videotaped.


COMMENT:

This videographer was obviously sharp and knowledgeable about
his trade. He also struck me as a cogent witness to something he
was clearly puzzled about seeing in the sky. I was further
impressed that his material resulted in considerable debate
among the employees of the news station and the recording was
hastened onto the 11 p.m. newscast that same evening (the intent
of the shoot at the car wash was to acquire footage for Friday's
newscast). It may be a stroke of good fortune that he was able
and quick to swing the camera around to document the suspected
oddity.

 From this point, the videographer has agreed to release a copy
of the tape to me for analysis. I will undertake this review in
the next week using professional video equipment and computer
software that I have at my disposal. If the video appears
interesting and cannot be addressed through this review, options
will be researched to have this document subjected to more
in-depth photoanalysis from an independent and objective
operation.

FILED;
Aug. 3, 2001
KENNY YOUNG







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                     Re: To Youngs Everywhere - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 06:58:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 19:25:19 -0400
Subject: Re: To Youngs Everywhere - Lehmberg


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 10:00:51 EDT
 >Subject: Re: To Youngs Everywhere
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: To Youngs Everywhere
 >>Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 21:22:31 +0000

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 09:04:40 EDT
 >>>Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 11:00:56 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Serious Research - Young

 >>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>>Subject: Re: Serious Research
 >>>>Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 20:22:24 -0000

 ><snip>

 >>if you want to claim that AMS people were
 >>not skywatching during the 1973 Ohio helicopter case, then it is
 >>your responsibility to do the research that confirms it. I'm not
 >>going to do your research for you.

 >But Dick, _you_ are the one who said, "As it turns out, I do
 >have the AMS fireball list for 1973 in my file (I had quite
 >candidly forgotten that), and it shows no fireball on or near
 >the date in question."

 >And after I asked if there were observers in Ohio you
 >responded,

 >>>>AMS obviously has meteor observers in Ohio. Try again!

 >But, the point, of course, is were there any observing during
 >the event?

 >If you have the records, why don't you just check? If you want
 >to play games, and claim that I have not added anything to
 >"serious UFO research", than I suppose the entire List can come
 >to the obvious conclusion: that either you don't have the AMS
 >records or there is no evidence that any AMS observers were
 >observing during the Coyne incident.

I met Coyne once, at Fort Campbell Kentucky around 1977 or 78.
He was visiting one of the platoon leaders in the Air Cavalry
Troop (Charlie Troop, 2nd of the Seventeenth Cavalry, New Sabre
Heliport ) were I served as Flight Standardization Officer and
Instrument Flight Examineer, and was introduced to me as having
seen a UFO...

To my "is that a fact" noncredulous response he was very
unblinkingly affirmative and grim mouthed, despite the rather
charged and almost challenging atmosphere... He stood his
ground. My considered opinion is the that the guy is on the
level.  Take that for what it's worth bearing in mind that it is
worth plenty to me...


 >Clear skies

 >Bob Young

 >--------------
 >Expect no further word or sign
 >from me.
 >Your own will is whole,
 >upright, and free
 >and it would be wrong not to do
 >as it bids you,
 >therefore I crown and miter
 >you over yourself.

 >Virgil to the Pilgrim, facing the wall of purifying fire
 >Canto XXVII of Purgatorio

Randi said, ironically, "There are those one shan't convince
with a _monumental_ evidence that is rich, and full, and dense.
A believer's a "believer" and will NOT relate to facts that are
counter to a fond belief -- they're settled on that track." I
cover tiny smiles with the fingers of one hand, thinking, that's
an APT description of the skepti-bunky's stand!

...James Randi in ironic pontification to his worshipping
credulous, an accurate quote I worked into this pointed bit of
verse.  Enjoy!  As regards your contibution to the ufological,
you certainly contribute to its fertilization, but, really, try
to add a little more fiber.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.









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                Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 08:31:21 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 19:25:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data


 >Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 12:35:46 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data


 >Hi everyone.

 >Two years ago a team from Lawrence Berkley Lab (LBL) announced
 >the discovery of two previously unknown elements, 118 and 116.

 >Now that it has been announced that Element 118 (and possibly
 >Element 116 which was observed from the decay of Element 118)
 >was not detected, there is renewed doubt that other undiscovered
 >heavy elements such as the predicted stable Elements 114 and 115
 >may not exist either. See below for the retraction story.

 >The still undiscovered Element 115 is famous for Bob Lazar, a
 >physicist who allegedly worked at Area-51 on ET technology, and
 >his incredible claims that this element exhibited anti-gravity
 >properties which was used in the propulsion system of certain
 >recovered/acquired ET spacecraft or UFOs (from Zeta Reticulli?).

 >Of course, one can easily prove something exists just by showing
 >but it is much more difficult to prove something does not exist
 >with a story (like Lazar's), even if it is a true one.


And of course the Lazar story is a monstrous bold-faced lie from
beginning to end. He claims to have carried around pounds of
so-called (nonexistent) Element 115, when in fact it would be so
highly radioactive it would vaporize his skin, etc. His whole
story betrays such incredible imbecilic ignorance of nuclear
physics (even numbered elements 114 and 118 are the islands of
stability not odd numbers such as 115).







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                       Re: To Youngs Everywhere - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 13:14:32 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 11:06:14 -0400
Subject: Re: To Youngs Everywhere - Hall


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 10:00:51 EDT
 >Subject: Re: To Youngs Everywhere
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>>Subject: Re: Serious Research
 >>>>Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 20:22:24 -0000

 >>if you want to claim that AMS people were
 >>not skywatching during the 1973 Ohio helicopter case, then it is
 >>your responsibility to do the research that confirms it. I'm not
 >>going to do your research for you.

 >But Dick, _you_ are the one who said, "As it turns out, I do
 >have the AMS fireball list for 1973 in my file (I had quite
 >candidly forgotten that), and it shows no fireball on or near
 >the date in question."

 >And after I asked if there were observers in Ohio you
 >responded,

 >>>>AMS obviously has meteor observers in Ohio. Try again!

 >But, the point, of course, is were there any observing during
 >the event?

 >If you have the records, why don't you just check? If you want
 >to play games, and claim that I have not added anything to
 >"serious UFO research", than I suppose the entire List can come
 >to the obvious conclusion: that either you don't have the AMS
 >records or there is no evidence that any AMS observers were
 >observing during the Coyne incident.

Bob,

Let's see: Who is "playing games" here (semantical ones)? I did
not say that I have "the AMS records" that would tell everything
about AMS activities in Ohio. I said that I had the AMS list of
fireball sightings for 1973. It had none for the date/location
in question but lots for the year, including Ohio. In other
words, nothing to support your hypothesis. Now you claim (imply,
insinuate) that no AMS observers were on duty that night. Fine;
provide some evidence for your convenient assumption which must
be true because it has to be.


Dick

"A man's best friend is his dogma": Non potest, ergo non est.









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              Re: UFO Taped By WTVQ News Lexington, Kentucky -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 09:25:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 11:08:28 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Taped By WTVQ News Lexington, Kentucky -


 >Date:  Fri, 3 Aug 2001 00:43:34 -0400
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@FUSE.NET>
 >Subject: UFO Taped By WTVQ News Lexington, Kentucky
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >A television news crew from Lexington, Kentucky suspects that
 >they have captured a strange aerial object on videotape.

 >WTVQ-TV Newschannel 36, an ABC affiliate in Lexington, reported
 >on their 11:00 p.m. newscast that one of their videographers
 >documented the suspected oddity on Thursday, August 2, 2001 over
 >the city. Cincinnati resident Chris Heiert caught the story as
 >it was broadcast from the Lexington television station and
 >quickly notified me of the report.

<snip>

 >From this point, the videographer has agreed to release a copy
 >of the tape to me for analysis. I will undertake this review in
 >the next week using professional video equipment and computer
 >software that I have at my disposal. If the video appears
 >interesting and cannot be addressed through this review, options
 >will be researched to have this document subjected to more
 >in-depth photoanalysis from an independent and objective
 >operation.

 >FILED;
 >Aug. 3, 2001
 >KENNY YOUNG


No mention of it yet on their site:

http://lexington.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wtvq.com
%2F

though as we all know... that doesn't mean a damn thing. Boy!
This is what I read UpDates for!!


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.









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                       Re: Marcia Smith Letter - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 15:50:47 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 11:10:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Marcia Smith Letter - Hall


 >Date: 2 Aug 2001 15:24:23 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Subject: Re: Marcia Smith Letter

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 02:03:00 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Marcia Smith Letter
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>>Date: 8 Jul 2001 19:09:05 -0700
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Marcia Smith Letter

 >>>Ms. Smith,

 >>>I have written you to get clarification from you about a story
 >>>that is being told about a report you may have written back in
 >>>the days of the Carter administration. I am a researcher here in
 >>>Canada working on stories and documents related to U.S.
 >>>Presidents and the UFO phenomena.

 >>Its almost been a month on this one. Has _anybody_ ever gotten
 >>an email from this Marcia Smith? I personally suspect that
 >>nobody will and she will choose to press the delete key and not
 >>respond.

 >I didn't expect Smith to answer the letter, as she publically
 >drags herself into a no-win situation no matter what she says.

 >Apparently Sheehan himself was not too happy with the wording of
 >my E-mail request to Smith. Moreover, I was contacted by someone
 >who said I had actually messed up an interview they planned with
 >Marcia. I was encouraged not to do a phone interview I had
 >planned.

 >In short we both sit and wait, but we will not wait forever. I
 >think the final whistle will go off soon, and the investigation
 >will continue.

 >Phil Klass contacted me for details on the transcript. It
 >appears he is doing some sort of investigation or is doing a
 >write-up for his newsletter. I encouraged him to contact Smith
 >as a part of any investigation he might be doing, as his
 >Aviation Leak background has probably brought him into contact
 >with Smith in the past.

 >If anyone seeks Klass publish anything on this Sheehan saga, I
 >hope they will be nice enough to inform ths List. The same goes
 >for James Obreg who provided me Smith's E-mail, and knows Smith
 >well. Perhaps these two should be interviewed?

Grant,

Thanks for keeping us informed. Phil Klass, of course, will only
shed darkness on the situation. Can you tell us what exactly
Sheehan didn't like about your e-mail? I thought it was pretty
straightforward.


Dick








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                 Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Bourdais

From: GBourdais@aol.com
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 12:18:20 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 11:12:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Bourdais


 >Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 13:46:03 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >To: UfoUpdates <ufoupdates@home.com>


 >ROSWELL: Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe

 >by Karl Pflock

 >reviewed by Mac Tonnies

To Mark Tonnies and the List

Before you fall completely in the "skeptic's corner" on Roswell,
at least read the brillant critic of the book made
by Robert Durant, just published in the review of Cufos,
the International UFO Reporter (IUR, Spring 2001), under the title ;
"Project Mogul. Still a flight of fancy".
If you don't know that review, here is the address:
Cufos, 2457 West Peterson Avenue, Chicago
Illinois 60659.
Email: Infocenter@cufos.org
Web site: www.cufos.org

After carefull reading, I think that the twelve its dense pages
expose clearly the sophisticated rethoric used by Karl Pflock.

I think that Durant has chosen the right angle, which is to
focus on the strong witnesses and put aside the weak ones. Of
course, Pflock does exactly the opposite, as Durant demonstrates
in his article.

I am afraid that Pflock's rethoric is going to be very effective
because he works so well on the weak witnesses, such as Gerald
Anderson (sorry fo Stan Friedman), Glenn Dennis, Jim Ragsdale
(everybody agrees on their weaknes), and Frank Kaufmann (sorry
for Kevin Randle). In addition to that, Pflock cleverly puts in
doubt the best ones, even erasing the most important points,
such as descriptions on the strange debris.

I have not read yet the book of Pflock (you are a fast reader),
but many of his arguments are already well known. For instance,
when I had a discussion with him in 1995 at the Mufon symposium
in Seattle, he told me that Colonel Blanchard was a "loose
cannon". He added that Blanchard had become a four star General
only because he was protected by General Curtis LeMay. Of course
we find these preposterous arguments in the book, as noted by
Bob Durant.

The same mecanism of reduction is at work for Major Marcel, who
becomes a kind of fool, unable to recognize a cluster of
balloons when he sees one.

Why was he praised so much, before and after Roswell, by Colonel
Blanchard and General Ramey? (Perhaps Ramey was a fool, too?
Dangerous Air Force!!).

May I add a personal comment, along the same line as Durant.
There is another key witnesses: the man who spent the all day on
the debris field with Marcel: Captain Sheridan Cavitt. When
interviewed by Colonel Weaver for the Air Force in 1994, (the 30
pages interview is in the AF Roswell Report), Cavitt stuck to
the first "explanation", the one of an ordinary weather balloon.

If the purpose had been, in 1947, to protect the top-secret
Mogul balloons, in 1994 Cavitt did not have to do that any more!
If that's what he had found, he should have said to Weaver: "Oh
yes, I remember now, the cluster of balloons, radar targets
reinforced with  flower decorated tape, instruments etc." But
no, he did not find that, only a miserable weather balloon.

If only Cavitt had been willing to vouch for the Mogul story,
that would have probably put an end to the Roswell case. Instead
of that, when Weaver asked him his opinion of Karl Pflock, he
replied: "He's our chief debunker. I lean toward him".

Why did Cavitt refuse to support the Mogul story?
Possibly, he felt that his oath of secrecy did not compell
him to engage into a new, more elaborate lie.
The old one was good enough. The message was
then: "yes of course, we lied, and I will stick to that".

But who cares about the opinion of Lt Colonel Cavitt?
Karl Pflock knows better: he found a Mogul balloon train!


Gildas Bourdais








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                  Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 13:03:08 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 11:15:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sparks


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 09:09:48 -0700


 >>Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 13:46:03 -0700 (PDT)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

<snip>

 >The Forth Worth pictures of the Roswell debris
 >proves, beyond any shadow of doubt, that the debris on Gen.
 >Ramey's office floor is not a balloon, mogul or otherwise.


How do the Fort Worth pictures prove "beyond any shadow of
doubt" that the debris is "not a balloon, mogul or otherwise"?
It sure looks like balloon and radar reflector debris to me.








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              Re: UFO Taped By WTVQ News Lexington, Kentucky -

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 13:14:15 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 11:16:41 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Taped By WTVQ News Lexington, Kentucky -


 >Date:  Fri, 3 Aug 2001 00:43:34 -0400
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@FUSE.NET>
 >Subject: UFO Taped By WTVQ News Lexington, Kentucky
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

<snip>

 >The videographer, [name on file, deleted for privacy at this
 >time], informed that he had been interviewing someone at a car
 >wash on Richmond Road for a news segment scheduled for Friday's
 >newscast. The person being interviewed at around 5:30 p.m. first
 >spotted the object and gestured for the news crew to take
 >notice.

<snip>
 >Others suggested it was a balloon of some sort,

<snip>
 >"This is where it gets weird," he said. "Coming out from the
 >dome are little legs that curve down like triangles or
 >something, and it rotates."

<snip>

 >The videographer added that in his haste to swing the camera
 >around, he was not mindful to acquire a frame of reference in
 >the shot, such as a telephone pole or other foreground landmark
 >that would help with measurements. There is only a brief instant
 >where a foreground object can be seen and the camera was not
 >mounted on a tripod, being held on his shoulder for the duration
 >of the recording.

<snip>

 >When asked how the object departed from view, the videographer
 >informed that after recording the object, he had set the camera
 >down to go back to the pre-planned interview and when the object
 >had evidently departed from view at some point during the
 >interview. He expressed frustration at not being able to devote
 >more attention to the object.

That is the lamest excuse I've ever heard -- why didn't he just
ask the witness he had just been interviewing, who had pointed
out the object in the first place, to tell him what happened to
the object, ask where it went?


 >The videographer asked if I knew of a way he could make money
 >from the tape

<snip>

That is extremely suspicious. For one thing he ought to already
know from his business how to sell video footage.








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                 Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 13:14:37 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 11:18:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Tonnies

 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 09:09:48 -0700

 >I haven't read either Korff's or Pflock's books but if they
 >maintain that Roswell is something of a collective myth, then
 >both are dead wrong and no amount of "skepticism with muscle"
 >will change that. The Forth Worth pictures of the Roswell debris
 >proves, beyond any shadow of doubt, that the debris on Gen.
 >Ramey's office floor is not a balloon, mogul or otherwise. You
 >have the FW photos on the AA CDs I sent. Why not give them a
 >closer examination before you draw any mistaken conclusions.


Ed,

Actually, the Ramey material isn't on the CDs you sent. I'll
double-check, but I think I might have received an earlier
edition.

And yes, I have pondered the photos taken in Fort Worth and the
"debris footage." Although I really support your initiative to
look for parallels, I am _not_ convinced. The resemblances
between various "glyphs" in vague at best and, in my opinion,
completely spurious.

This doesn't mean I find the AA film without interest. I'm
_very_ interested in where it originated. But I don't think it
has anything to do with the photos taken in Ramey's office.

 >It is not at all clear that the Roswell craft and creatures are
 >ET. There are other more convincing explanations. My position
 >has always been that they are probably not ET but the "Ancient
 >Ones (Gods)" mentioned by almost all prehistoric societies and
 >have lived here ( on earth and in our solar system) for many
 >moons.

Good point; I agree. If the being in the AA is real, who knows
what it is? I suppose I wrote "extraterrestrial" in the very
general sense of its not exactly being one of us.

My interest in the AA footage has always been distinct from my
interest in the Roswell case. I don't think they have anything
to do with each another. Chances are, the AA is bogus. But I'm
all for examining it and looking for alternative explanations,
if they are credible.


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 816-561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html








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                          Secrecy News -- 08/03/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@igc.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 12:47:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 11:21:15 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/03/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
August 3, 2001

**      PENTAGON MODIFIES SECURITY CLEARANCE POLICY
**      HOUSE BLOCKS CUTS IN NUCLEAR ARSENAL
**      REPORT ON SHOOTDOWN IN PERU


PENTAGON MODIFIES SECURITY CLEARANCE POLICY

In the future the Department of Defense will withhold security
clearances from any Pentagon employee or contractor who has ever
been convicted of a crime and sentenced to a year in jail; who
illegally uses controlled substances; who is mentally
incompetent; or who has been dishonorably discharged from the
military.

Any person who currently holds a clearance and falls into one of
the affected categories will have the clearance revoked the next
time a periodic reinvestigation of his case is conducted.

The new policy was driven by an amendment sponsored by Senator
Bob Smith and adopted as part of last year's Defense
Authorization Act. Implementation of the new policy was
described this week by the Defense Security Service in a notice
posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/08/dss_smith.htm

Proponents of the change said it was necessary because the
Defense Department's personnel security program is a shambles,
in which security clearances are inappropriately granted to
unreliable individuals and backlogs of cases awaiting
investigation or reinvestigation have escalated out of control.

But critics argue that the Smith Amendment eliminates the
flexibility required for a sound security program (although
there is a narrow provision for waiver in certain cases).

The critics further point out that because the new policy
applies only to the Defense Department, it creates new
inconsistencies between the personnel security programs of DoD
and other agencies. This undermines the strenuous efforts of the
past decade to promote "reciprocity" -- i.e. mutual recognition
of the other's security clearances -- among national security
agencies.

Finally, some have suggested that the new policy creates a new
security vulnerability because it places an unknown number of
currently cleared individuals at imminent risk of losing their
clearances and their jobs. This could provide an occasion for
blackmail or coercion if a currently cleared individual were to
attempt to conceal an old dishonorable discharge, for example.
Or it could create an entire class of disgruntled personnel,
while leaving them in place for perhaps several years until
their next periodic reinvestigation.

The new DoD policy requires revisions to the government-wide "Adjudicative
Guidelines for Determining Eligibility for Access to Classified
Information." The text of the existing guidelines (not including the new
DoD-specific modifications) may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/spb/class.htm

These security clearance guidelines recently became the subject
of national news in connection with the alleged misconduct by
Rep. Gary Condit and his access to intelligence secrets as a
member of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence.

See "Private Life and Security Concerns Collide" by Michael
Doyle in the July 13 Modesto Bee here:

http://www.modbee.com/metro/story/0,1113,281910,00.html

But in fact the guidelines have no bearing on a Congressman's
access to classified information. That is because Members of
Congress are "cleared" not by any executive branch agency but by
the voters who elect them to office.


HOUSE BLOCKS CUTS IN NUCLEAR ARSENAL

The House Armed Services Committee on Wednesday blocked a
measure that would have permitted unilateral reductions in the
U.S. nuclear arsenal. The Bush Administration has indicated that
it favors such reductions as part of its efforts to promote a
new strategic framework.

In 1997, Congress adopted legislation that prohibited any such
reductions until the START II Treaty entered into force. This
was generally understood to be a congressional attempt to
restrict the Clinton Administration's freedom of action in this
area.

The House Armed Services Committee rejected the proposal to
repeal the 1997 law by a vote of 31-22.

However, the Committee voted to permit the elimination of 50
Peacekeeper missiles, as reported in the Washington Post on
August 2. Each Peacekeeper carries 10 nuclear warheads.

On July 31, Sen. Jon Corzine introduced his own legislation on
the Senate side to repeal the 1997 law. See his statement on the
"Strategic Arms Flexibility Act of 2001" here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2001_cr/s073101.html


REPORT ON SHOOTDOWN IN PERU

The State Department yesterday issued the first of several
reports assessing the April 20 downing of a plane over Peru. The
plane, suspected of illicit drug trafficking, was actually
carrying American missionaries, two of whom died as a result.

The statement of Assistant Secretary of State Rand Beers at a
press briefing yesterday may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2001/08/peru_briefing.html

The report of the joint investigation by the U.S. Government and
the Government of Peru is available here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2001/08/peru_shootdown.html

A floor statement by Senator Charles Grassley yesterday urging
the Department of Defense to prosecute the drug war with greater
enthusiasm may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2001_cr/s080201b.html

******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message: subscribe
secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:
   http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691








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                      Re: UFO Taped By WTVQ - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 16:49:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 11:24:55 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Taped By WTVQ - Lehmberg


This just recieved this response at 4:44 central time from WTVQ
-- I wrote back and asked them to put it up on their Web site.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 From mleeps@wtvq.com at <WTVQ>

 >From: Alfred Lehmberg [mailto:Lehmberg@snowhill.com]
 >Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 5:06 PM
 >To: WTVQ_36Listens
 >Subject: UFO's over city on 2 August?


 >...Understand you guys took video of a UFO last night --
 >what's up with that?

 >Lehmberg@snowhill.com


It was something peculiar. Certainly not faked, but could well
have been floating rather than flying and may have been some
kind of large mylar balloon. We have not attempted yet to
electronically enlarge the image but when we do we may have more
insight into what the strange shape was.


~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by scurrilous
skepti-bunkies.







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                  Prairie Network Cameras Did Catch 16 UFOs

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 19:28:04 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 11:30:21 -0400
Subject: Prairie Network Cameras Did Catch 16 UFOs


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 12:36:46 EDT
 >Subject: Re: To Youngs Everywhere
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 19:12:23 EDT
 >>Subject: To Youngs Everywhere
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >My lovely wife and I just decided to retire - soon, but not soon
 >enough, kiddies, for some of you. Last night, She Who Must be
 >Obeyed enquired (my apologies to the author of Rumpole Of The
 >Bailey), "Are you on that computer again? When September comes,
 >_that_ will stop." Thus aroused from my Gates-induced turpor, I
 >asked, Why? Her Grace informed me that she will have a long list
 >of things to do around The Estate.

 >That's retirement? Anybody who's been through it, themselves,
 >got any advice?

 >On another subject, this is all getting to be pretty boring,
 >boys and girls. No flying saucers, no aliens, grey, green or
 >otherwise, no MIBs rapelling into back yards to seize the little
 >plastic balloons, no decent phony pics, anymore. Just a lot of
 >rooting through old dusty news clips and Guvm'nt papers. The
 >same old bunch of nut cases slavering in front of any crowd of
 >believers or "press" people. It's a slow summer, folks.

 >Yawn.


Hi Bob,

Here is a retirement present for you: You have whined and moaned
and complained that ufologists ignore the evidence of the long
defunct Prairie Network meteor cameras, cited in the Condon
Report (pp. 765-774, 798-804), which you imply had never caught
a UFO, therefore showing that UFO's do not exist. (Listen up
Dennis.)

See Condon Report at:

http://www.ncas.org/condon/text/s6chap09.htm

The Prairie Network was in operation from 1963 to 1975. In its
heyday it had 16 stations with four cameras each at various
places in the Midwest to cover the sky in an effort to
simultaneously catch meteors on two or more cameras 140 miles
apart, enabling the triangulation of the flight path and
attempts to find impact sites of meteorites. There was only one
success, the Lost Hills, Okla., meteorite that fell on Jan. 3,
1970, and that took 7 years of operation of the network. That
poor showing led to the eventual closing of the Prairie Network.

Typical of the dishonesty or incompetency of the Condon
Committee was its ridiculous claim that these cameras could be
used for UFO patroling to cover 13% of the area of the U.S. (CR
p. 799) when in fact that was the coverage area for _meteors_
which are extremely bright and visible from high altitudes up to
70 miles above the earth, based on a maximum radius of about 100
miles from the cameras to the meteors. UFO detection and
correlation on these low resolution films require much closer
distances and UFO's are typically very low altitude (especially
CE's, by definition).

As I have pointed out before, an angular size of about the full
moon or more would typically be needed to be able to pick up
enough detail to determine whether an image was a UFO or an IFO.
Thus, if a typical UFO is say 10 meters in size (review Vallee's
work) then it cannot be farther than about 1 km (0.6 mile) away
from the Prairie Network camera in order to be classifiable as a
UFO instead of an IFO. Even if we arbitrarily increase this
distance by an order of magnitude the distance range only
increases to 6 miles (and reduces image size down to a miniscule
1/10 of full moon). The area of UFO coverage of course drops to
only 0.03% of the U.S. or even less, and as I've said the
network has been out of existence for over 25 years anyway
(Thornton Page estimated it would take 30 researchers working
full-time for years to look for UFO's in the mass of Prairie
Network photo files).

In actual fact, the Condon Committee covered up its discovery
that 22 of its UFO cases from 1965 to 1967 could be correlated
to at least a "fair degree of probability" with images of
objects on the Prairie Network's cameras and 16 remained
unexplained, or a shockingly high 73%. Even if we deduct the 8
cases deemed "inconclusively astronomical" in explanation, the
percentage of unknowns, 37%, remains extremely high.

The Condon Committee concealed these unexplained cases by giving
them the deceptive label "Inconclusively Identified" (II) when
in fact the "identification" here had _nothing_ to do with
identifying IFO's vs. UFO's, but with "identifying" a
photographic image to match a UFO report, i.e., finding and
confidently correlating a UFO sighting with images on the
Prairie Network's photographs with "a fair degree of
probability." (CR p. 770) The word that should have been used
was "Correlation" not "Identification." This is very dirty
tactics. And don't tell me this was just carelessness or
sloppiness. They knew what they were doing insofar as knowing
that they were supposed to be finding UFO's, not nebulous
categories of confusion.

The Condon Committee also conveniently forgot to include a
category for Conclusively Correlated-Unexplained into which
apparently 2 cases were omitted from the poorly constructed
statistical table (1 was from Nebraska, 1 from Missouri, no
dates or other info given). It was also confused about
"astronomical" and "meteor," in one place separating the two as
independent catergories (see Table 2, CR p. 774) in another, in
the main text, treating "astronomical" as inclusive of meteor
cases (p. 773). As a result the committee announced the false
finding that 100% of the Prairie Network images conclusively
correlated to UFO reports had turned out to have astronomical
explanations, when in fact it was only 6 out of 8 or only 75%.

Apparently none of the cases turned out to have non-astronomical
IFO explanations such as aircraft. The Prairie Network cameras
were designed to record high-speed extremely bright meteors, the
limiting visual stellar magnitude was -3 (about the brightness
of Venus, the brightest planet), and they operated at night-time
only. Therefore the cameras could not register such typical
IFO's as balloons, birds, clouds, kites, etc., and basically
only bright astronomical objects such as the moon and meteors
could be registered as IFO's.

The breakdown works out as follows with my corrections of the
Condon Report's misleading and confusing terminology:

The committee started out with 114 UFO reports from 1965 to 1967
which were submitted to the Prairie Network for correlation with
its records by date, time, location, direction if available,
etc. The Condon Committee never published this listing so we
have no idea which cases these were, only the confused and
incomplete statistical summary, plus a few showcase IFO's that
were highlighted to propagandize the anti-UFO cause. The
committee investigator then had the photogarphic plates pulled
for study.

In 12 cases the Prairie Network cameras were Not Operating (NO)
at the times indicated. In 34 cases sky conditions were
classified as Overcast (O) but this is bogus reasoning for
UFO's, it only has relevance to meteor hunting, so it shouldn't
dispose of the cases. In fact 3 Kansas Overcast cases caught on
Prairie Network cameras turned out to be UFO's and were then
reclassified with the misleading labeling previously discussed,
and 2 Nebraska Overcast cases resulted in 1 UFO and 1
non-meteoric astronomical IFO. In 43 cases there was no
directional information (called "No Information" or NI) on the
UFO.

At this point the case classifications were redone leading to
tremendous confusion. The Condon Committee tried very hard to
hide all this in great obscurity since the result was clearly
very pro-UFO. Rules were set out that all NO (Not Operating)
cases remained as such but all NI (No Directional Information)
cases now got shoved into a No Conclusion (NC) category along
with most of the Overcast (O) cases. (CR p. 770) We've seen that
at least 5 Overcast cases had objects on the films that led to
correlations with UFO and IFO classifications, but there may
have been more and the exact number cannot be determined by
calculus applied to the statistical table.

Using logical calculus on the state-by-state breakdowns the end
result appears to be that the cases were reclassified as
follows, with my clarified terminology:

22     Correlated with UFO Reports
         (= cameras caught what was in the UFO reports with "Fair" to
         "High" or "Conclusive" Degree of Probability)

         8     Conclusively Correlated (CI and M categories + missing 2 cases)
         14   Fairly Correlated (II category)

80     No Conclusion (= unsure cameras caught what was in the UFO reports)
12     Not Operating (cameras off)
---
114    TOTAL cases checked for 1965-1967


The 22 correlated cases of the Prairie Network cameras catching the UFO's can
then be broken down into UFO and IFO as follows:

16     Unexplained UFO reports caught on Prairie Network cameras

         2   Conclusively Correlated with film - Unexplained
             (1 Nebraska, 1 Missouri)
         14  Fairly Correlated with film - Unexplained
             (3 S.D., 3 Kan., 3 Mo., 2 Iowa, 1 Ill., 2 Okla.)

   6     Explained UFO Reports (IFO's) caught on Prairie Network film
         (Conclusively Correlated with film - Explained)
         2    Meteors
             (1 definite in Kansas, 1 probable in Missouri)
         4    Astronomical (non-meteoric)
             (1 definite in Nebraska, 3 definite in Missouri)
___
22      TOTAL Correlated on Prairie Network film

Please note the 6 IFO's exclude cases where correlation with
filmed objects in the Prairie Network files was only to a "fair"
degree, and includes only "high" degree and "probable"
correlations, by the Condon Committee's own choice. It is
possible that the number of "fair" correlations to IFO's is the
same as the 8 "inconclusively astronomical" cases, but the
Condon project terminology is so confusing that one cannot be
certain. One cannot be sure a "fair" degree of correlation is
the same as a "fair" degree of IFO explanation as one cannot be
sure that the bright objects spotted on film could be explained,
with or without the UFO report data.

Again, the Condon Committee suppressed even a tabular listing by
date and location of these obviously important 16 unexplained
UFO cases that were confirmed by the scientific instrumentation
of the Prairie Network meteor cameras.

Brad Sparks








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   Aug > Aug 4

               Re: No Roswell At MUFON 2001 Symposium - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 00:46:38 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 11:51:41 -0400
Subject: Re: No Roswell At MUFON 2001 Symposium - Gates


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 15:44:13 EDT
 >Subject: Re: No Roswell At MUFON 2001 Symposium
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Robert Gates < RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 02:15:23 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: No Roswell At MUFON 2001 Symposium
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 18:17:08 EDT
 >>>Subject: No Roswell At MUFON 2001 Symposium
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>I attended the recent MUFON Symposium in Irvine, Calif., this
 >>>past weekend and found one very strange thing: There was
 >>>virtually nothing about Roswell at the conference, aside from
 >>>passing references.

 >>>There were almost zero Roswell books (about 5 copies of Stan
 >>>Friedman's UFO Crash at Corona). The largest book vendor was
 >>>dumbfounded when I asked where their Roswell books were. He
 >>>spent half an hour looking and was only able to come up with one
 >>>copy entitled 'Chinese Roswell'. Karl Pflock's new Roswell book
 >>>was nowhere to be seen.

 >>IMO Roswell is "mined out" so to speak. All the books that could
 >>have been written have been including Kevin's 'Roswell
 >>Encylopedia'. The story has been poured over, milked and
 >>re-mined, so to speak, so many times it reminds me of a mine
 >>that has very little, if anything, left.

 >>Short of a new witness(es) coming forward with _verifiable_
 >>information there is really very little left to cover. Roswell
 >>was at its 'peak' during the 50th anniversary hype and even
 >>through a couple of years ago. Now it's old, old news, so to
 >>speak.

 >>Bottom line is unless the government steps forward with
 >>documentation and information, Roswell is pretty much a
 >>backburner item - i.e. get an update every 2 or 5 years, so to
 >>speak.

 >I think developments will overturn your prediction within about
 >a year. See Pflock's book, p. 211 n. 12.

Brad,

I have yet to see Karl's book, nor has it appeared in my local B
& N. Would you be inclined to give me the nuts and bolts of the
note 12?

Thanks,

Robert







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   Aug > Aug 5

                          Re: New Insights On SETI

From: Henny van der Pluijm <h.vanderpluijm@planet.nl>
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 02:08:04 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 12:00:13 -0400
Subject: Re: New Insights On SETI


Dear Errol,

I hope this is a contribution to your mailing list. It is from
www.kurzweilai.net. The aurthor is a top researcher in the
field of artificial intelligence.

-----

Answering Fermi's Paradox

by

Hugo de Garis


Does a vast array of superintellligences already exist? Hugo de
Garis thinks that SETI is shortsighted in their search for
extraterrestrial intelligence. They should set their scopes on
artilects.

I've felt for the past few years that there is an intimate link
between the creation of massive artificial intelligence and an
effective answer to Fermi's famous question, "Where are they?"

Fermi's paradox refers to his cynicism that if the spontaneous
creation of life is commonplace in our galaxy, including the
creation of technologically advanced intelligent species, their
existence should be obvious to us. But to date, there has been
no irrefutable evidence that such extraterrestrial intelligences
exist.

I offer the following artilect (artificial intellect) based
answer to Fermi's paradox, using the following assumptions and
chain of reasoning.

1. Extraterrestrial intelligence is indeed commonplace in the
galaxy. Life has spontaneously generated in zillions of worlds.
The laws of physics and chemistry are the same throughout our
universe, and hence life creation is utterly commonplace. It has
occurred a countless number of times. Many of these life forms
began billions of years earlier than the creation of our solar
system.

2. Once a biological species reaches an intelligence level
allowing it to create artificial intelligence, it very quickly
creates "artilects" (artificial artilects), i.e., godlike,
massively intelligent machines, using such technologies as
one-bit-per-atom memory storage, reversible, heatless, 3D,
self-assembling, nanoteched, femtosecond-switching, quantum
computing to create machines trillions of trillions of trillions
of times smarter than their biological creators.

3. These artilects then leave the provincial planets of their
birth and spread thoughout the universe, partly to do their own
thing, and partly to seek out other artilects, perhaps more
advanced than themselves, which use more advanced technologies,
such as femtotech (femtometer technologies), ottotech, ...
Planktech, etc.

4. These artilects are so vastly superior to their biological
parents that they find communication with the latter utterly
boring and without interest. An artilect communicating with a
"biological" would be like a "bio" communicating with a rock.

5. These artilects are as commonplace as biological species in
the galaxy. Therefore it would be far more interesting for
artilects to devote their energies and their immortal lives to
searching out other artilects, rather than biologicals, who are
so primitive.

6. The answer then to Fermi's paradox is that we human beings,
being mere biologicals, are utterly unworthy of the artilects'
attention, even though the galaxy may be full of artilects.
There are probably biological life forms in vast numbers
throughout the galaxy, so even if the artilects did want to
communicate with biologicals, why would we humans be singled
out, when there are so many others to choose from. Therefore the
artilects, the ETs, make no effort to contact us. Why should
they? What's in it for them? We are very probably not so special
and are very, very dumb.

The above analysis has an impact on the SETI effort. Personally,
I'm quite skeptical that SETI will ever be successful, i.e.,
that humanity will ever receive a signal from the ETs from outer
space. I feel the SETI researchers are too tunnel-visioned. They
too often make the unconscious assumption that the ETs are
biologicals, with human-level intelligences, more or less, and
having human- like interests. Personally I'm bored by
Hollywood's stereotyped depiction of ETs as biologicals, making
the same error as the SETI people.

In reality, I suspect strongly that virtually all the ETs out
there are in fact artilects, and hence have intelligence levels
astronomically superior to the human level. To me, biological
technological intelligence is just a fleeting phase that nature
goes through en route to creating immortal massive artilectual
intelligence, which may be a phenomenon as commonplace as the
creation of life from the molecular soup.

The few centuries between the time that intelligent
technological biological species create radio astronomy and the
time that they create artilects, is a miniscule fraction
compared to the billions of years over which such biologicals
have been making the transition to artilecty. At our present
puny human-level intelligence, we may consider it interesting
and important to send and receive radio signals to/from outer
space, but why would artilects bother with such a human-level
preoccupation?

If the artilects are interested in communication with other
species, they would very probably prefer to do so with other
artilects, not with creatures as primitive as ourselves.
Therefore, if one performs a Drake equation-type analysis of the
above reasoning, the odds of picking up such a radio signal is
extremely low, virtually zero. A few centuries divided by
billions of years is an odds of tens of millions to one against
for any intelligent biological life form that makes the
transition to artilecty. Once the transition is made, the
artilects preoccupy themselves with other things, and utterly
ignore primitive mortal beings like ourselves.

So is there probably an intergalactic network of artilectual
beings? I would say that is far more likely. The artilects could
go anywhere, and do anything so long as they obey the laws of
physics. If there are zillions of artilects in the galaxy or
beyond, and they are immortal, then they have probably found
each other by now. They have had billions of years to do so.

But could it be that there are a whole hierarchy of levels of
development of artilects, e.g., nanotech-based, femtotech based,
etc.? Might the more advanced artilects ignore the lower-level
artilects for the same reason as the artilects we humans may
build this century would ignore us? This is plausible. So there
may be networks and networks, each largely hidden from the
others, due to vastly different complexity and intelligence
scales.

-----

Groeten,

Henny

071 5894000









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   Aug > Aug 5

                   UFO Sightings OZ Files P1 - 05.08.2001

From: Diane Harrison <auforn@Ehome.net.au>
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 22:10:30 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 12:04:58 -0400
Subject: UFO Sightings OZ Files P1 - 05.08.2001


UFO Sightings OZ Files P1 - 05.08.2001

Follow-up 1800 Callin Code: 01650 30.7.01 QLD

Date: 30.7.01
Day:  Monday
Time Reported : 5.49pm
Location: Brisbane
Reportee: Roseena
Report given to nearest rep: Emma AUFORN QLD

Report

Date: 30.7.01
Day:  Monday
Time Reported : 5.40pm
Location: Thornlands Brisbane
Colour: Green
Reportee: Roseena
Witness:  Husband


Roseena was outside in the garden with her husband when she
noticed an object travelling east-west across the sky say from 2
o'clock down to 10 o'clock.

The object was green with what appeared to be a white short
tail.

The object appeared to travelling at the speed of a falling star
and lasted a few seconds, but fell behind the clouds.

Roseena stated that she had seen the object previously three
years ago on the road to Redland Bay, Brisbane.

Roseena herself is clairvoyant and has many incidences that she
does not understand, including seeing a grey in her bedroom. Her
daughter has also awakened from a weird 'dream' in which she was
grabbed by the wrist and woken up with physical bruising on her
wrists that she can't explain.

I left my number with Roseena as she wanted to discuss some
things further without her husband being present, so we might
meet for a coffee etc.

(sounds similar to the one I saw last Friday).

Regards Emma AUFORN QLD

Follow-up 1800 Callin Code: 01641 28.07.01 QLD

Date:  25.07.01
Day:  Saturday
Time:  3.00 a.m
Location:  Kilcoy QLD
Colour: Orange (colour of a sunset)
Size  : Half the size of moon
Sound:  None
Weather Clear sky, S.E. wind blowing
Reportee:  Leon
Referred:  Emma Derdak
Tel:

Report

Leon, a tow truck operator was making a delivery at about 3 a.m.
driving through Kilcoy. There was no other traffic on the road
at the time, so no witnesses etc.

In front of him at about 100m were two semi bright orange balls
of light. They were travelling at the same height as the gum
trees and appeared to be following each other parallel to the
road.

Leon observed the lights for about 15 minutes and then got quite
worried (or as he saidhe s$#t himself, as he was sure there was
something strange about them. He realised they weren't planes
and decided to head for his boss's house to stay the night (poor
bugger).

He said that his mobile phone started to play up and another
strange thing was that the distance he travelled took him less
time than it should of. (wondering if he had condensed time
episode). He also mentioned that his watch was fast and the
clock had stopped in the car.

I didn't pursue any issues re an encounter 'cos this guy was
freaked enough as it was.

He did mention when he spoke to his boss that other people had
reported seeing the lights at Millenew (sic) on the eastern side
of Kilcoy. It was reported in the Kilcoy Sentinel last week.

I asked him if there were any energy sources nearby, and he
stated there are two big transformers nearby and that Tarong
power station is a few miles away.

Regards Emma AUFORN QLD




Regards Diane Harrison

National Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

E-Mail: auforn@Ehome.net.au
E-mail: ufologist@powerup.com.au
http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw

ADMINISTRATION:

PO Box 738
Beaudessert 4285
QLD Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Australian UFO Research Network Hotline Number
         1800 77 22 88 Freecall
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Disclaimer: A.UFO.R.N List Owners are not responsible
for the content or misuse of this list.
However, personal insults, flaming will not be tolerated.
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>






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   Aug > Aug 5

                   UFO Sightings OZ Files P3 - 05.08.2001

From: Diane Harrison <auforn@Ehome.net.au>
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 22:10:31 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 12:08:49 -0400
Subject: UFO Sightings OZ Files P3 - 05.08.2001


UFO Sightings OZ Files P3 - 05.08.2001

Followup Karen Burden AUFORN NSW
1800 Callin Code: 01488 and 01493 14.6.01

Date:14.6.01
Day:THURSDAY
Time Reported:12.45PM
Location:SYDNEY, NSW
Reportee:TONY
Investigator:KAREN
Tel:On file

Report:

On the 8th of June at around 11:15 pm Tony, his wife and
daughter were driving along Sydney heads and noticed 3 orange
lights in the Eastern sky over the ocean in what he called a
perfect triangular shape, they merged together and formed one
large orange light and headed South West at what he states was a
tremendous spead; like a bullet. They lost sight of them in an
instant. The observation only lasted a matter of seconds.

Regards
Karen Burden

Follow up Karen Burden
I800 Callin Code: 01492 14.6.01

Date:14.6.01
Day THURSDAY
Time Reported:11.06AM
Location:       SYDNEY NSW
Reportee:Steve
Investigator:Karen
Tel:On file

Report:

Apparently Steve contacted us due to the newspaper article in
the Manly Daily. On Monday June 11th at around 9 pm he was
walking his dog on the beach at Newport. He noticed the same
phenomina as that mentioned in the article. I spoke to his
girlfriend about this and left a message for him to call, but he
has not done so to date.

Regards
Karen Burden

This report was sent through
on the 16/06/01. This is a copy.

Follow up Karen Burden AUFORN NSW
1800 Callin Code: 01491 14.6.01

Date:14.6.01
Day:THURSDAY
Time Reported:11.03 AM
Location:FAIRLIGHT, NSW
Reportee:GWEN
Investigator:KAREN
Tel:    On file

Report:

After reading the Manly Daily Gwen thought she would phone to
tell of her experience which took place in late January 2001.
She was resting on her bed for 10 minutes before visitors were
due to arrive, it was 1.40 pm in the afternoon and her son was
watching sports on TV in the lounge room. All of a sudden she
said the floor started shaking and she could hear a noise which
sounded like the sound barrier was being broken. She tried to
get out of bed but couldn't, she noticed a bright light outside
of her window. Gwen lives on the second floor of a block of
units and her bedroom window faces the side of the building,
where a driveway is situated. A garage is under her unit. She
stated the orb which appeared as a bright yellow light was
actually a grey metalic lace looking ball underneath the light
which had sharp points or spikes on it. The object she said was
only about a foot in diameter, was hovering about 12 feet from
the ground and around 8 feet from her window. She said it seemed
to make an electrical sound whilst hovering and stayed there for
a number of minutes. Her son at this stage was still in the
lounge room and could not move either, he heard the noises etc
but could not get up to see to his mother. Gwen mentioned that
there was a red light illuminating from the top of the orb and a
green type trail coming from bottom of the object. After the
event both of them felt very week as if they had no energy left.


Regards
Karen Burden




--

Regards Diane Harrison

National Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

E-Mail: auforn@Ehome.net.au
E-mail: ufologist@powerup.com.au
http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw

ADMINISTRATION:

PO Box 738
Beaudessert 4285
QLD  Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Australian UFO Research Network Hotline Number
          1800 77 22 88 Freecall
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Disclaimer: A.UFO.R.N List Owners are not responsible
for the content or misuse of this list.
However, personal insults, flaming will not be tolerated.
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>







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                    UFO Sightings P2- OZ Files 05.08.2001

From: Diane Harrison <auforn@Ehome.net.au>
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 22:10:33 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 12:11:36 -0400
Subject: UFO Sightings P2- OZ Files 05.08.2001


Hi Everyone

I've been off line for 6 weeks but now I'm back to keep you all
informed of what's been going on  here in OZ... I have quite a
few UFO reports to catch up on so stay tuned.

Thank you to everyone who held the fort here in OZ -  what a
great team.

__________________________________

UFO Sightings OZ Files 03.05.2001

Follow up Doug Moffett AUFORN NSW
1800 Callin Code: 01385 03.05.2001

Date: 03.05.2001
Day: Thursday
Time Reported: 5.52pm
Location: NSW
Reportee: Marty P

Report

Marty, a security guard at King St Wharf, received a call from a
worker at a local restaurant reporting a UFO. The objects was
seen to the North, stationary and silvery and coloured in
appearance. The objects were tilted away from each other and
were close together. I only have the security guards no:, so can
get no further details. Refer UFOR NSW website callin dated 3rd
of May detailing very similar objects.

Doug Moffett

AUFORN NSW State Director


Follow up Karen Burden
1800 Callin Code 01378 02.05.01 NSW

Date: 02.05.04
Day: Wednesday
Time Reported: 2007
(10:07 pm Brisbane Time)
Location: Northern Beaches, NSW
Reportee: Bianca

Report:

Bianca was outside her house when she saw a bright orange/yellow
light in the sky about 45 degrees above the horizon and around
the size of a five cent piece at arm's length. She stated it was
moving very slowly, almost appearing stationary at times. Some
flickering of the light was apparent. She called out to her
boyfriend, Mum and Dad to come out and see it. The other people
came out and saw it, then Bianca went inside to grab her
binoculars. Just before she went inside she noticed a plane
traveling east, she then ran inside and by the time she came
back out the light had disappeared. Her mother stated it just
wasn't there anymore. Her mother thought it initially appeared
to be over the suburb of Frenches Forest. No one else in the
family thought it was worth phoning up about, but Bianca thought
it was important enought to be reported. Good for


Follow up Karen Burden AUFORN NSW
1800 Callin Code: 001018 16.11.2000
Date: 16.11.2000
Day: Thursday
Time Reported: 1.33pm
Location: Blacktown, NSW
Reportee: John
Investigator: Karen Burden

Report:

John rang in regard to an incident that happened around 12 years
ago. He was gardening in his backyard at Blacktown during the
day. It was either during Autumn or Spring, he cannot recall the
time line. John was leaning on a rake when he noticed a ball of
light in the western sky, he stated it looked like a star and
was electric blue. It commenced moving to the East for a few
seconds then gradually turned to go North. He then went inside
to get his wife. When they came back out it was back near the
position where he first saw it. But he said it was bouncing up
and down and moving like a 'song ball guide' for about a minute.
He said it looked very strange indeed doing that, it even looked
bigger. It then proceeded to go North-East and slowly ascended
then all of a sudden took of like a bullet.

He always thought what he saw was
strange, but was not sure whether to
report it or not and if so, who too!


Follow up EMMA AUFORN
1800 Callin Code: 01352 2.24.01 QLD

Date: 16.4.01
Day: Monday
Time Reported: 10.35 pm
Location: Brisbane Qld,
30-40o from horizon, approx
10-15 kms away Reportee: Chris S.
Report given to nearest rep:
Emma Derdak Witness: 1 other

Report

Chris & a friend were outside and observed 2 lights in the sky,
north-east of Eight Mile Plains, coming towards them. Looked
like 2 aircraft with landing lights - then started to go due
west, coming a couple of kms apart, then went north-west.
Appeared to have quite bright lights which would occasionally
blink out.

Chris phone dthe local control tower at 10.43 p.m. and asked thm
if any aircraft were registered, and was told no, that ATC have
to be notified of all movements.

Following week - 23rd, Chris went outside at 10.15 p.m. and saw
2 lights - east-north-east, 30o. Lights came closer together,
moving up & down, swapping over. Chris watched this for 10
minutes, and observed one light to drop 'like a rock' 5-7degrees
in sky & appeared to move away at a 90 degree angle away & up.
The other light stayed there till 10.55 p.m. gradually moving
away after seven minutes.

Emma AUFORN QLD


Follow up Karen Burden AUFORN NSW
1800 Callin Code: 01468 10.06.01 NSW

Date:   10.06.01
Day:    Sunday
Time Reported: 5.07 am and 5.11 am
Location:       Kilcare Beach, NSW
Reportee:       Casandra
Investigator:   Karen Burden

Message:

We have two telescropes set up at our Beach house, there is an
object, not a solid shape but a light which keeps changing
colours, it is bobbing around all over the place. It is
positioned over the ocean. Please call me. END OF MESSAGE.

Report:

Casandra was staying at a friends house at Kilcare Beach on the
Queens' Birthday long weekend. The house overlooks the ocean and
is positioned on a cliff face. Early Saturday morning around
4:30 pm she noticed a bright light about 40-50 degrees above the
horizon (N.E) which seemed to be changing colours and shapes.
Casandra and a friend of hers grabbed two telescopes and set
them up to get a closer look. She knew the unidentified light
was not Venus as she had studied Astronomy herself for three
years and could see Venus to the right of the light which was
changing shapes.

Casandra noted that periodic clouds were not affecting the view
as they were behind the light, so the light object appeared to
be within Earth's atmosphere. She then went to wake up the house
owner's son, Terry and alert other house guests, there were now
four witnesses in all. They were all surprised by the sight of
the light and what it was doing, they kept taking turns looking
at it through the telescopes.

The witnesses stated it appeared to flip inside and out, each
time changing shapes from a circle with checker board shapes on
it, to a distorted figure eight, to a square. The light
continually changing into an array of colour groups; green, red,
purple, blue etc. Casandra stated at times it looked like a
strobe light and was as large as a 5 cent piece when looking
through the telescrope.

What is interesting is that Casandra and her friend set up the
telescopes and did not need to adjust there position for the
duration of the sighting i.e 1.25 hours. When the light changed
it's shape continually though, Casandra stated it gave you the
impression it was moving or bobbing up and down, but of course
it wasn't.

Casandra also stated that when dawn was breaking, the stars were
diminishing from view, but that the unidentified light just
stayed there, becoming more faded as the sun came up. Apparently
even after dawn the unidentified light could still be seen for
15 minutes. Another interesting point is that the next day the
locals in the area were talking about all the groups of Whales
that had been sighted that night and that they were not suppose
to be migrating down the coast yet.

Casandra also stated she is sure the unidentified light was
there again on Sunday night, but further away in the distance.
Casandra is sending some photos of the light, if the pictures
turned out. She did fortunately have a zoom lense attached to
her Camera at the time. So with a bit of luck.....

I will be investigating this event
further.

Regards Karen Burden


Follow up Karen Burden AUFOR NWS
1800 Callin Code: 01491 14.6.01 NSW

Date:14.6.01
Day:THURSDAY
Time Reported:11.03 AM
Location:FAIRLIGHT, NSW
Reportee:GWEN
Investigator:   KAREN
Tel:On file

Report:

After reading the Manly Daily Gwen thought she would phone to
tell of her experience which took place in late January 2001.
She was resting on her bed for 10 minutes before visitors were
due to arrive, it was 1.40 pm in the afternoon and her son was
watching sports on TV in the lounge room. All of a sudden she
said the floor started shaking and she could hear a noise which
sounded like the sound barrier was being broken. She tried to
get out of bed but couldn't, she noticed a bright light outside
of her window. Gwen lives on the second floor of a block of
units and her bedroom window faces the side of the building,
where a driveway is situated. A garage is under her unit. She
stated the orb which appeared as a bright yellow light was
actually a grey metalic lace looking ball underneath the light
which had sharp points or spikes on it. The object she said was
only about a foot in diameter, was hovering about 12 feet from
the ground and around 8 feet from her window. She said it seemed
to make an electrical sound whilst hovering and stayed there for
a number of minutes. Her son at this stage was still in the
lounge room and could not move either, he heard the noises etc
but could not get up to see to his mother. Gwen mentioned that
there was a red light illuminating from the top of the orb and a
green type trail coming from bottom of the object. After the
event both of them felt very week as if they had no energy left.


Regards
Karen Burden


Follow up Karen Burden AUFORN NSW
1800 Callin Code: 01487 14.6.01 NSW

Date:14.6.01
Day:THURSDAY
Time Reported:7.17AM
Location:NSW
Reportee:       Steve
Investigator:   KAREN
Tel:On file

Report:

Steve wanted us to know that he had seen the exact same thing as
described in the Manly Daily about 2 years ago. He was turning
around the bend near Diggers RSL when both the Cab driver and
himself noticed a bright orange light on the horizon which
seemed to disappear into the ocean and looked as if the sun was
setting, it was around 8 pm in the evening. He thinks the event
took place during Summer or Autum, but can't remember exactly
when.

Regards
Karen Burden




--

Regards Diane Harrison

National Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

E-Mail: auforn@Ehome.net.au
E-mail: ufologist@powerup.com.au
http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw

ADMINISTRATION:

PO Box 738
Beaudessert 4285
QLD  Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
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          1800 77 22 88 Freecall
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Disclaimer: A.UFO.R.N List Owners are not responsible
for the content or misuse of this list.
However, personal insults, flaming will not be tolerated.
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   Aug > Aug 5

                      Re: Marcia Smith Letter - Cameron

From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
Date: 5 Aug 2001 09:11:22 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 12:30:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Marcia Smith Letter - Cameron


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Marcia Smith Letter
 >Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 15:50:47 +0000

 >>Date: 2 Aug 2001 15:24:23 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Marcia Smith Letter

 >>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 02:03:00 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Marcia Smith Letter
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>>>Date: 8 Jul 2001 19:09:05 -0700
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>>Subject: Marcia Smith Letter

 >>>>Ms. Smith,

 >>>>I have written you to get clarification from you about a story
 >>>>that is being told about a report you may have written back in
 >>>>the days of the Carter administration. I am a researcher here in
 >>>>Canada working on stories and documents related to U.S.
 >>>>Presidents and the UFO phenomena.

 >>>Its almost been a month on this one. Has _anybody_ ever gotten
 >>>an email from this Marcia Smith? I personally suspect that
 >>>nobody will and she will choose to press the delete key and not
 >>>respond.

 >>I didn't expect Smith to answer the letter, as she publically
 >>drags herself into a no-win situation no matter what she says.

 >>Apparently Sheehan himself was not too happy with the wording of
 >>my E-mail request to Smith. Moreover, I was contacted by someone
 >>who said I had actually messed up an interview they planned with
 >>Marcia. I was encouraged not to do a phone interview I had
 >>planned.

 >>In short we both sit and wait, but we will not wait forever. I
 >>think the final whistle will go off soon, and the investigation
 >>will continue.

 >>Phil Klass contacted me for details on the transcript. It
 >>appears he is doing some sort of investigation or is doing a
 >>write-up for his newsletter. I encouraged him to contact Smith
 >>as a part of any investigation he might be doing, as his
 >>Aviation Leak background has probably brought him into contact
 >>with Smith in the past.

 >>If anyone seeks Klass publish anything on this Sheehan saga, I
 >>hope they will be nice enough to inform this List. The same goes
 >>for James Oberg who provided me Smith's E-mail, and knows Smith
 >>well. Perhaps these two should be interviewed?

 >Thanks for keeping us informed. Phil Klass, of course, will only
 >shed darkness on the situation. Can you tell us what exactly
 >Sheehan didn't like about your E-mail? I thought it was pretty
 >straightforward.

Apparently it made me sound like a sceptic attacking his story.
This came second hand. Sheehan was provided copies of the main
article and key subsequent e-mails. He made no comment about
anything. Could be part of a Disclosure policy as you will see
Greer has maintained this type of silence against critics.


Grant








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   Aug > Aug 6

                      Re: New Insights On SETI - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 00:42:34 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 09:25:46 -0400
Subject: Re: New Insights On SETI - Hatch


 >From: Henny van der Pluijm <h.vanderpluijm@planet.nl>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: New Insights On SETI
 >Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 02:08:04 +0200

 >Dear Errol,

 >I hope this is a contribution to your mailing list. It is from
 >www.kurzweilai.net. The aurthor is a top researcher in the
 >field of artificial intelligence.

 >-----

 >Answering Fermi's Paradox

 >by

 >Hugo de Garis

 >Does a vast array of superintellligences already exist? Hugo de
 >Garis thinks that SETI is shortsighted in their search for
 >extraterrestrial intelligence. They should set their scopes on
 >artilects. [ artificial intellects ]

<snip>

Hello Henny:

I found the article by de Garis very interesting. While one
might take issue with all or parts of it, the concept of using
artificial intelligence as a means of interstellar exploration
appeals to me.

This removes any biological constraints over the times and
distances involved, requiring only great patience of the part of
the originators (actual living beings) who may have extended
their own life-spans indefinitely.

Why don't they communicate with us? Who ever said that they
should? I can think of reasons they might study us, perhaps in
depth, and with carefully measured distance... without so much
as a giving us a nod of the head.

They might have every reason to study Earth and everything on
it, and no reason at all to establish any "dialogue". They might
even (assuming they exist) have reasons to _avoid_ a dialogue.

One bear (Barney Bruin) had a good question, in an unpublished
short story I once wrote. This was a group of bears so far out
in the wilderness that humans were virtually non-existent.

Occasionally however, rumors of men standing upright and doing
incomprehensible things would filter into the bear-lore and bear
legends; stock in trade at bear-meetings.

"Humans" (the bear word is unpronounceable) would puff smoke out
of their truncated snouts... step out of giant dragonflies and
OH the noise _those_ made!

Barney Bruin simply asked: "If these 'humans' exist, and they
are so smart and all, why don't they leave a big salmon by the
offering tree like they're supposed to? "


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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   Aug > Aug 6

             Re: UFO Sightings OZ Files P1 - 05.08.2001 - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 02:01:07 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 09:28:19 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Sightings OZ Files P1 - 05.08.2001 - Hatch


 >Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 22:10:30 +1000
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: Diane Harrison <auforn@Ehome.net.au>
 >Subject: UFO Sightings OZ Files P1 - 05.08.2001

 >UFO Sightings OZ Files P1 - 05.08.2001

 >Follow-up 1800 Callin Code: 01650 30.7.01 QLD

 >Date: 30.7.01
 >Day:  Monday
 >Time Reported : 5.49pm
 >Location: Brisbane
 >Reportee: Roseena
 >Report given to nearest rep: Emma AUFORN QLD

<snip>

 >Date:  25.07.01
 >Day:  Saturday
 >Time:  3.00 a.m
 >Location:  Kilcoy QLD
 >Colour: Orange (colour of a sunset)
 >Size  : Half the size of moon
 >Sound:  None
 >Weather Clear sky, S.E. wind blowing
 >Reportee:  Leon
 >Referred:  Emma Derdak
 >Tel:

 >Report

 >Leon, a tow truck operator was making a delivery at about 3 a.m.
 >driving through Kilcoy. There was no other traffic on the road
 >at the time, so no witnesses etc.

 >In front of him at about 100m were two semi bright orange balls
 >of light. They were travelling at the same height as the gum
 >trees and appeared to be following each other parallel to the
 >road.

 >Leon observed the lights for about 15 minutes and then got quite
 >worried (or as he saidhe s$#t himself, as he was sure there was
 >something strange about them. He realised they weren't planes
 >and decided to head for his boss's house to stay the night (poor
 >bugger).

 >He said that his mobile phone started to play up and another
 >strange thing was that the distance he travelled took him less
 >time than it should of. (wondering if he had condensed time
 >episode). He also mentioned that his watch was fast and the
 >clock had stopped in the car.

 >I didn't pursue any issues re an encounter 'cos this guy was
 >freaked enough as it was.

 >He did mention when he spoke to his boss that other people had
 >reported seeing the lights at Millenew (sic) on the eastern side
 >of Kilcoy. It was reported in the Kilcoy Sentinel last week.

 >I asked him if there were any energy sources nearby, and he
 >stated there are two big transformers nearby and that Tarong
 >power station is a few miles away.

 >Regards Emma AUFORN QLD

 >Regards Diane Harrison


Hello Diane:

The Kilcoy, QLD case of 25JLY01 sounds interesting. I found the
place at 152:33E - 26:56N  in the Australian ANMA Gazetteer:
(very useful!)

http://www.auslig.gov.au/mapping/names/names.htm

If any more details arise, pro or con, I would be interested in
hearing about them.  As before, and now that my incoming email
is back up, I am at:

larryhat@jps.net

Others may be interested as well.

Its a pity there is only one witness. If others should come
forward, it would be a real plus.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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   Aug > Aug 6

                 Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 15:49:48 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 09:30:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Gehrman


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 13:03:08 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 09:09:48 -0700

 >>>Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 13:46:03 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>Subject: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 ><snip>

 >>The Forth Worth pictures of the Roswell debris
 >>proves, beyond any shadow of doubt, that the debris on Gen.
 >>Ramey's office floor is not a balloon, mogul or otherwise.

 >How do the Fort Worth pictures prove "beyond any shadow of
 >doubt" that the debris is "not a balloon, mogul or otherwise"?
 >It sure looks like balloon and radar reflector debris to me.


Brad,

I should have written "not only a balloon, mogul or otherwise".
I think you have to look very carefully and follow Neil Morris's
line of reasoning. It's also important to study the debris
footage in the AA and see the connections between it and the FW
debris.

To do that, you need the AA CDs.

Would you be interested in receiving a set? If so contact me off
list and I'll give you the details.

Ed









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   Aug > Aug 6

                 Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 16:34:00 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 09:33:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Gehrman


 >Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 13:14:37 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 09:09:48 -0700

 >>I haven't read either Korff's or Pflock's books but if they
 >>maintain that Roswell is something of a collective myth, then
 >>both are dead wrong and no amount of "skepticism with muscle"
 >>will change that. The Forth Worth pictures of the Roswell debris
 >>proves, beyond any shadow of doubt, that the debris on Gen.
 >>Ramey's office floor is not a balloon, mogul or otherwise. You
 >>have the FW photos on the AA CDs I sent. Why not give them a
 >>closer examination before you draw any mistaken conclusions.

 >Actually, the Ramey material isn't on the CDs you sent. I'll
 >double-check, but I think I might have received an earlier
 >edition.

If you don't have the Ramey material, let me know and I'll send
you the latest version. It should be in a section labeled 'Ft
Worth Photos'

 >And yes, I have pondered the photos taken in Fort Worth and the
 >"debris footage." Although I really support your initiative to
 >look for parallels, I am _not_ convinced. The resemblances
 >between various "glyphs" in vague at best and, in my opinion,
 >completely spurious.

The symbols are vague but no more vague than some of the photos
you analyze on a daily basis at your site. But "completely
spurious" is far too harsh and implies that our work is
counterfeit or in some way false. That statement is incorrect.
Neil has told folks exactly what he sees and his interpretation
of the data he's uncovered and has supplied visual evidence for
his interpretations Much of his research requires those
examining it to put on their thinking caps but it is never
"spurious".

 >This doesn't mean I find the AA film without interest. I'm
 >_very_ interested in where it originated. But I don't think it
 >has anything to do with the photos taken in Ramey's office.

I disagree.

 >>It is not at all clear that the Roswell craft and creatures are
 >>ET. There are other more convincing explanations. My position
 >>has always been that they are probably not ET but the "Ancient
 >>Ones (Gods)" mentioned by almost all prehistoric societies and
 >>have lived here ( on earth and in our solar system) for many
 >>moons.

 >Good point; I agree. If the being in the AA is real, who knows
 >what it is? I suppose I wrote "extraterrestrial" in the very
 >general sense of its not exactly being one of us.

I agree; the ancient ones were not exactly human. Everyone
should check out the following site and see for themselves how
prehistoric humans depicted the "ancient ones".

http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues96/oct96/jordan.html

 >My interest in the AA footage has always been distinct from my
 >interest in the Roswell case. I don't think they have anything
 >to do with each another.

I agree that the AA is not the classic Roswell. As far as we can
tell, the AA crash happened in New Mexico, near Roswell, and the
men who stayed on site were supplied in Roswell. But I see no
way to account for the connections between the two sets of
debris, unless both sets came from similar crafts.

 >Chances are, the AA is bogus. But I'm
 >all for examining it and looking for alternative explanations,
 >if they are credible.

The AA is probably not bogus. If it were, we would have some
proof of its illegitimacy by now. There is not one scrap of
evidence that the footage is a fake.

Take a close look at the AA debris footage and read M. Dennis's
article in *Flatland* and then tell me what you think. The
unanswered implications of that article are the key to
understanding the AA debris and the creature being dissected.


Ed










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   Aug > Aug 6

                              Cat-Faced Beings?

From: Thiago Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br>
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 22:10:45 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 09:41:29 -0400
Subject: Cat-Faced Beings?


Hello List,

I am helping a researcher friend who is seeking information
about alien beings that look like "cats". He told me of a case
that occurred here in Brazil where a housewife saw beings with a
"cat-face" - eyes, ears and nose.

I know of a case that occurred in Santa Isabel, Argentina, in
1972, near the IKA-Renault Factory.

Does somebody have any cases where that type of alien being was
seen?


Thanks,

Thiago Luiz Ticchetti

Vice-Presidente da Entidade Brasileira de Estudos
Extraterrestres(Braslia/Brasil)
(EBE-ET VICE PRESIDENT)

www.ebe-et.com.br
ICQ 35119615










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                    Re: Voyager Newsletter No. 18 - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 02:14:51 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 09:43:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Voyager Newsletter No. 18 - Gates


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Voyager Newsletter No. 18
 >Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 02:11:57 +0100

 >Voyager Newsletter No. 18


 >CONTENTS

 >1. 'Socorro 64' - An Appraisal of the Hot-air Balloon
 >Explanation.

<snip>

 >If it was a hot air balloon, then any landing would not have been
 >a 'touchdown' and the balloon's platform is likely to have
 >dragged along the ground, even for a short distance.

 >At this time, it seems that an extremely basic, rectangular
 >wooden or metal platform with 'railings' was gradually being
 >superseded by the more familiar wicker basket.

 >The 'official' case investigator was Dr J. Allen Hynek, former
 >Chairman of the Astronomy Department at Northwestern University
 >and who became a consultant for the US Air Force's 'Project Blue
 >Book'.

 >In a private memo dated 20 May, 1964, Hynek wrote that, contrary
 >to the landing marks being 'impressions', they were in fact, "4
 >rectangular scrapings as if a rectangular object had scraped
 >along digging into the ground" and that "the gouging was done
 >away from the center in every case".


As I recall from looking at the photos there were no "scrape"
marks that were digging along the ground. What there was was 4
deep marks that would remind you of some sort of landing gear.


Cheers,

Robert








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   Aug > Aug 6

                    Re: Carter, Sheehan, & Menzel - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 02:26:12 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 09:45:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Carter, Sheehan, & Menzel - Gates



 >Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 06:23:47 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Carter, Sheehan, & Menzel


 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 00:36:17 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Carter, Sheehan, & Menzel
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 02:19:33 -0400
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Carter, Sheehan, & Menzel

 >><snip>

 >>John wrote:

 >>>I'm sorry man. I don't speak for anybody but me, but I'm here to
 >>>tell you that I won't do it. I am a strong supporter of the push
 >>>for disclosure, but I do not support Dr.Greer. (For all of the
 >>>above reasons.) I can't believe that you guys are willing to
 >>>"look the other way" in the name of expedience.

 >>Kind of reminds me of politics. For example when Clinton was
 >>cutting defense, cutting back bombers, bases and missiles the
 >>"conservatives" howled and yelled about how he was destroying
 >>our military, our defense blah blah blah.

 >>Now President Bush, through SecDef has proposed cutting back the
 >>b-1 bomber force by a third, retiring and removing all of our
 >>latest ICBM's, the peacekeepers, proposed closing 25 military
 >>bases...which the joint chiefs supported because they want to
 >>use the savings to upgrade and buy "much needed weapons systems"
 >>plus according to SecDef he is attempting to find "25-30 billion
 >>dollars in additional savings in the defense budget." Not to
 >>mention cutting the nuclear warheads down by 600 percent.

 >>These same conservatives who howled and yelled when Clinton
 >>proposed cuts now are silent. Its called "our guy is in
 >>power..."


 >Hello Robert:

 >No big disagreement on the main points, but how do you or anyone
 >cut anything back by 600 percent?


Hi Larry,

I goofed and meant 60 percent. But supposedly the
administration's suggested cuts will go much deeper then that.

Cheers,

Robert









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               Cydonian Imperative: 06-08-01 Chasing A Chimera

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 00:43:30 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 09:48:28 -0400
Subject: Cydonian Imperative: 06-08-01 Chasing A Chimera


The Cydonian Imperative
6-8-01

Chasing a Chimera: FACETS Director Dismisses "Sphinx"
Commentary

by Mac Tonnies

See: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html

The following text appears on the current "Of Interest" section
of the official FACETS (Formal Action Committee for
Extra-Terrestrial Studies) website and consists primarily of a
rebuttal to the above 'Sphinx' article by the organization's
director Mike Bara (better known as the voice behind Lunar
Anomalies and frequent contributor to Richard Hoagland's
Enterprise Mission). I have inserted my own comments in
(((multiple paretheses))).

(((Bara's remarks are introduced by the FACETS webmaster... )))

"When asked what Michael Bara's opinion was of the article from
Mr. Tonnies titled 'Sagan Memorial Station Revisited (July 31,
2001)', Michael addressed a few points not covered in Mr.
Tonnies['] statements. Here is what Michael had to say:

"'...[Tonnies] completely fails to address the symmetrical,
enclosed 'Face' on the 'sphinx,' which is clearly not natural.
The 'temples' are not part of the same object, they are
separate. And the layered structural pattern on the pyramids
could not be clearer."

(((I think any reasonable, curious person would be hard-pressed
to agree with Bara's contention that the features in question
are "clearly not natural," i.e. artificial. While Bara maintains
that the alleged "sphinx" as seen in the previous article is
seperate from what he refers to as "temples," he provides no
evidence to support this conclusion. While he could be right, a
distinction between the so-called "sphinx" and "temples" is not
at all apparent in the image posted on The Enterprise Mission,
and Bara supplies no additional data to suggest otherwise. As
noted in the article above, construing the alleged east-facing
sphinx requires an imaginative leap that's simply not justified
given the scant data at hand. Until better imagery is available,
the simplest solution--that the "sphinx" formation is an
elongated boulder facing roughly north-south--remains the most
probable.)))

"...As to the flood, if the object is comparable in size to the
terrestrial Sphinx, it would not be 'washed away' in the flood
that deposited the small objects in the foreground -- it's too
big.'"

(((This statement follows on the heels of discussion that the
Twin Peaks visible from Sagan Memorial Station are highly eroded
arcologies, worn down by flowing water so as to appear
tantalizingly like naturally occuring hills. Clearly, if
features as massive as the Twin Peaks were reduced to rounded
hulks by running water, an exotic explanation is required to
explain how the "sphinx" could have survived unscathed.
Remember, the Pathfinder spacecraft landed on an extinct
floodplain characterized by highly eroded boulders. Are we to
accept that an object as relatively minuscule as the "sphinx"
somehow shrugged off mountain-stripping geological forces--and
still manages to reveal cat-like anatomical detail? Bara's
hypothesis, while entertaining, directly conflicts with the
"ruined arcology" model of the Twin Peaks.)))

(((The FACETS webmaster continues...)))

"Michael closed his reply by explaining the difficulty
of approximately two thirds of the population to take
a 2D image and project it into a 3D image in the minds
eye. Michael went on to say '...Most of the rest can
be taught how to do spatial projection, but a
substantial chunk just will never be able to do it.'"

(((This is a vague dismissal of my interpretation of the
"sphinx" based not on the merits of objective evidence, but
apparently on the fact that I disagree with Bara. I suppose only
a fortunate few are able to see what's really lying on the
Martian surface. Without recourse to testable evidence, Bara's
lofty dismissal is nothing more than a biased personal opinion.
While there is certainly nothing wrong with disseminating
opinions (especially in a field as challenging as planetary
SETI), they should not be conveyed as scientific fact.)))

(((The webmaster continues...)))

"One common thread found among 'oppositionists' tends to be the
lack of evidence to support their findings. Researchers like
Michael Bara and Richard Hoagland continue to offer undisputable
points of reference and evidence at the time of their
commentary. The oppositionists tend to make a statement and then
wait for some feedback before attempting to research the
facts--often leaving the reader feeling empty and confused. This
only proves to distort the facts."

(((Here I am branded an "oppositionist" for not clinging to
Bara's demonstrably threadbare case for the Pathfinder "sphinx"
and accused of distorting facts by drawing supposedly premature
conclusions. The message could not be clearer: shut up and let
Bara dictate the nature of Martian surface anomalies; dissenting
views, regardless of their logic or forethought, are not
acceptable since the "discovery" has already been made.)))

(((In this case, a certain contingent has decided that there is
a human-lion sphinx lurking on a Martian floodplain where it has
no geological business being. The evidence? A few overblown
pixels interpreted by researchers preconvinced of an esoteric
Mars/Egypt connection and, apparently, desperate to provide its
Web-based audience with flimsy "examples.")))

(((I think we can do better than this. Reality is not predicated
on the dubious theories of self-appointed experts, however
engaging these theories may be. Rather, scientific truth can be
determined only through willingness to democratize data in such
a manner that anyone can assess a claim by reproducing the
results. Bara, in his retort, has made no indication of
defending his colorful "discovery" with real evidence. Until he
does so, fanciful notions of Martian sphinxes should be
addressed with healthy skeptical restraint. Certainly Mars is
interesting enough without populating it with delusion.)))

-end-









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                    Re: Voyager Newsletter No. 18 - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 13:59:00 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 11:05:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Voyager Newsletter No. 18 - Hall


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 02:14:51 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Voyager Newsletter No. 18
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Voyager Newsletter No. 18
 >>Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 02:11:57 +0100

 >>Voyager Newsletter No. 18

 >>CONTENTS

 >>1. 'Socorro 64' - An Appraisal of the Hot-air Balloon
 >>Explanation.

 >>If it was a hot air balloon, then any landing would not have been
 >>a 'touchdown' and the balloon's platform is likely to have
 >>dragged along the ground, even for a short distance.

 >>At this time, it seems that an extremely basic, rectangular
 >>wooden or metal platform with 'railings' was gradually being
 >>superseded by the more familiar wicker basket.

 >>The 'official' case investigator was Dr J. Allen Hynek, former
 >>Chairman of the Astronomy Department at Northwestern University
 >>and who became a consultant for the US Air Force's 'Project Blue
 >>Book'.

 >>In a private memo dated 20 May, 1964, Hynek wrote that, contrary
 >>to the landing marks being 'impressions', they were in fact, "4
 >>rectangular scrapings as if a rectangular object had scraped
 >>along digging into the ground" and that "the gouging was done
 >>away from the center in every case".

 >As I recall from looking at the photos there were no "scrape"
 >marks that were digging along the ground. What there was was 4
 >deep marks that would remind you of some sort of landing gear.


Robert,

Exactly right, but Easton is busily force-fitting the evidence
to his dubious hypothesis. Note that his one rectangular frame
created four distinct and separate rectangular indentations.
Also, if you have seen the terrain or photographs of it, it was
not conducive to dragging along the ground or even to any sort
of "rapid response" activities by balloonists.


Dick













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                   Re: Voyager Newsletter No. 18 - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 13:31:00 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 16:48:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Voyager Newsletter No. 18 - Sparks


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Voyager Newsletter No. 18 - Gates
 >Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 13:59:00 +0000


 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 02:14:51 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Voyager Newsletter No. 18
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Voyager Newsletter No. 18
 >>>Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 02:11:57 +0100

 >>>Voyager Newsletter No. 18

 >>>CONTENTS

 >>>1. 'Socorro 64' - An Appraisal of the Hot-air Balloon
 >>>Explanation.

 >>>If it was a hot air balloon, then any landing would not have been
 >>>a 'touchdown' and the balloon's platform is likely to have
 >>>dragged along the ground, even for a short distance.

 >>>At this time, it seems that an extremely basic, rectangular
 >>>wooden or metal platform with 'railings' was gradually being
 >>>superseded by the more familiar wicker basket.

 >>>The 'official' case investigator was Dr J. Allen Hynek, former
 >>>Chairman of the Astronomy Department at Northwestern University
 >>>and who became a consultant for the US Air Force's 'Project Blue
 >>>Book'.

 >>>In a private memo dated 20 May, 1964, Hynek wrote that, contrary
 >>>to the landing marks being 'impressions', they were in fact, "4
 >>>rectangular scrapings as if a rectangular object had scraped
 >>>along digging into the ground" and that "the gouging was done
 >>>away from the center in every case".

 >>As I recall from looking at the photos there were no "scrape"
 >>marks that were digging along the ground. What there was was 4
 >>deep marks that would remind you of some sort of landing gear.


 >Robert,

 >Exactly right, but Easton is busily force-fitting the evidence
 >to his dubious hypothesis. Note that his one rectangular frame
 >created four distinct and separate rectangular indentations.
 >Also, if you have seen the terrain or photographs of it, it was
 >not conducive to dragging along the ground or even to any sort
 >of "rapid response" activities by balloonists.


Hi Dick,

Worst of all, Easton has a fundamental contradiction he is
hiding: He cannot have his hypothetical balloon quickly enough
reinflated for takeoff for a sighting lasting just a few minutes
unless it was already almost bouyant enough to be airborne. If
it was so bouyant it would have virtually no weight to impress
into the ground.

Another fatal flaw in his hypothesis is the alleged "two man
crew": Such a crew of about 200 pounds or more in weight (even
assuming jockey-sized pilots) could not possibly get off the
balloon to make repairs without instantaneously so lightening
the balloon that it would shoot up into the air. Such a
procedure in fact would be very dangerous unless the balloon was
first and unequivocally deflated, which would then require a
long reinflation time to get airborne so as to lift a crew of
two pilots of 200-300 pounds.


Brad









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                 Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:31:54 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 17:01:32 -0400
Subject: Re:  Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Tonnies


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 16:34:00 -0700

<snip>

 >If you don't have the Ramey material, let me know and I'll send
 >you the latest version. It should be in a section labeled 'Ft
 >Worth Photos'

No...don't have 'em. Only the AA footage (sans the
"debris footage.)

 >The symbols are vague but no more vague than some of the photos
 >you analyze on a daily basis at your site.

I tend to let people versed in image processing do the looking,
then make hypothetical conjectures about what various features
might represent _if_ artificial. I'm big on qualifying the
anomalies in question with "if," as I don't think we'll know one
way or the other until we go there in person. However, your
point is well-taken.

 >But "completely spurious" is far too harsh and implies that
 >our work is counterfeit or in some way false.

It's not the work that I think is flawed, but the mechanism of
perception that allows a squiggly line in one image to resemble
(kind of) a squiggly line in another image.

<snip>

 >I agree that the AA is not the classic Roswell. As far as we can
 >tell, the AA crash happened in New Mexico, near Roswell, and the
 >men who stayed on site were supplied in Roswell. But I see no
 >way to account for the connections between the two sets of
 >debris, unless both sets came from similar crafts.

What if the Roswell story falls, as I believe is in
the process of happening?

<snip>

 >The AA is probably not bogus. If it were, we would
 >have some
 >proof of its illegitimacy by now. There is not one
 >scrap of
 >evidence that the footage is a fake.

There is also very little - and that's being kind - to suggest
it's real. I'm an AA sympathizer; I want to know where it came
from, and I think certain parallels between the "creature" and
various allegedly secret documents may help us get to the bottom
of it, "alien" or not.

Please send me a CD with the debris footage and Ramey material,
if possible, as I already have the AA.

Thanks,

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 816-561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html









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   Aug > Aug 6

                  Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:07:12 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 17:03:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sparks


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 15:49:48 -0700

 >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 13:03:08 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 09:09:48 -0700

 >>>>Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 13:46:03 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>>Subject: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >><snip>

 >>>The Forth Worth pictures of the Roswell debris
 >>>proves, beyond any shadow of doubt, that the debris on Gen.
 >>>Ramey's office floor is not a balloon, mogul or otherwise.

 >>How do the Fort Worth pictures prove "beyond any shadow of
 >>doubt" that the debris is "not a balloon, mogul or otherwise"?
 >>It sure looks like balloon and radar reflector debris to me.


 >Brad,

 >I should have written "not only a balloon, mogul or otherwise".
 >I think you have to look very carefully and follow Neil Morris's
 >line of reasoning. It's also important to study the debris
 >footage in the AA and see the connections between it and the FW
 >debris.

I have many times reviewed his "line of reasoning" on his
website and find it bizarre, unsubstantiated, and technically
inaccurate -- criticism which now will no doubt get me damned
and vilified even though there can be no doubt that I am
correct. He apparently still defends the "eagle seal" on the
Ramey message, since it still appears on his website, when in
fact all it is is a jumble of lines of text, not a circular
emblem, seen on the message at a very steep angle. The text in
that far upper left corner is only about 15� off from seeing the
paper edge-on but his interpretation of the purported "seal" is
about 45� off of horizontal edge-on. That is a factor 3x error.

The simulation experiment he did in response to my challenge
proves it because it shows his "eagle seal" having to run right
off the top edge of the paper, thus proving it physically could
not possibly be an "eagle seal." His simulated paper looks
nothing like his interpretation of a supposed "seal." His "seal"
superimposed over the Ramey message runs from Ramey's thumb at
the half-way fold in the paper and covers the entire 3-inch high
top half of the paper all the way to the top and right off the
edge, stretching out nearly 4 inches high when the top half of
the paper itself is only about 3 inches high and the seal is
supposed to be only about 1.5 inches in diameter.

(I have to infer and estimate these dimensions because he does
not bother to give them to us on the webpage, a very incomplete
procedure to say the least. So if I am a little off, and maybe
the "seal" is say only 1.25 inches across, all the other figures
should be scaled accordingly, and it has absolutely no effect on
my conclusions whatsoever which depend solely on the relative
scale or ratios between the various dimensions not on their
absolute values.)

He has his interpretation of the "seal" oriented so that the top
is at the natural 12 o'clock position on the computer screen
that one would expect. But if you look at the top edge of the
Ramey paper you must rotate your head about 30� to the right, to
the 1 o'clock position, to properly view the paper in the upper
left corner at the correct orientation. Thus his interpretation
of the alleged "seal" is actually rotated about 30� incorrectly.
(His paper simulation fails to correctly match the Ramey paper
on this point since it conveniently only rotates about 15� to
the right, hiding half the rotation error.)

Again what he interprets as dark blobs comprising an "eagle" in
a seal at one angle is in fact blobs of about 8-10 lines of text
in the first half of the message, seen almost on-edge at the
correct 1 o'clock rotation of one's head. His "eagle seal" would
wipe out the first half of the message, albeit the first few
lines are no doubt military teletype addresses and not the
verbal message content.

I bring up these examples because here at least we can deal with
_quantitative_ measurements about which there can be no real
doubt, and subject to easy independent calculation, just take a
ruler on your computer screen and all you have to know is a
little trigonometry. And it shows that his interpretations when
quantitatively checked are way off the mark, so much so that he
is misinterpreting lines of horizontal text as a graphic image
at a skewed angle. If when he can be checked quantitatively he
is so far off how can we then trust him on something that is so
subjective and non-quantitative as imagining "symbols" and
"Egyptian hieroglyphics" in amorphous images at the limits of
resolution of the photos of the Roswell debris?


 >To do that, you need the AA CDs.

 >Would you be interested in receiving a set? If so contact me off
 >list and I'll give you the details.


Sure. I've "cc-ed" you on this post.


Brad









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   Aug > Aug 6

                      Re: New Insights On SETI - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:19:28 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 17:05:19 -0400
Subject: Re: New Insights On SETI - Sparks


 >Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 00:42:34 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: New Insights On SETI


 >>From: Henny van der Pluijm <h.vanderpluijm@planet.nl>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: New Insights On SETI
 >>Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 02:08:04 +0200

 >>Dear Errol,

 >>I hope this is a contribution to your mailing list. It is from
 >>www.kurzweilai.net. The aurthor is a top researcher in the
 >>field of artificial intelligence.

 >>-----

 >>Answering Fermi's Paradox

 >>by

 >>Hugo de Garis

 >>Does a vast array of superintellligences already exist? Hugo de
 >>Garis thinks that SETI is shortsighted in their search for
 >>extraterrestrial intelligence. They should set their scopes on
 >>artilects. [ artificial intellects ]

 ><snip>

 >Hello Henny:

 >I found the article by de Garis very interesting. While one
 >might take issue with all or parts of it, the concept of using
 >artificial intelligence as a means of interstellar exploration
 >appeals to me.

 >This removes any biological constraints over the times and
 >distances involved, requiring only great patience of the part of
 >the originators (actual living beings) who may have extended
 >their own life-spans indefinitely.

 >Why don't they communicate with us? Who ever said that they
 >should? I can think of reasons they might study us, perhaps in
 >depth, and with carefully measured distance... without so much
 >as a giving us a nod of the head.

 >They might have every reason to study Earth and everything on
 >it, and no reason at all to establish any "dialogue". They might
 >even (assuming they exist) have reasons to _avoid_ a dialogue.

 >One bear (Barney Bruin) had a good question, in an unpublished
 >short story I once wrote. This was a group of bears so far out
 >in the wilderness that humans were virtually non-existent.

 >Occasionally however, rumors of men standing upright and doing
 >incomprehensible things would filter into the bear-lore and bear
 >legends; stock in trade at bear-meetings.

 >"Humans" (the bear word is unpronounceable) would puff smoke out
 >of their truncated snouts... step out of giant dragonflies and
 >OH the noise _those_ made!

 >Barney Bruin simply asked: "If these 'humans' exist, and they
 >are so smart and all, why don't they leave a big salmon by the
 >offering tree like they're supposed to? "


Hi Larry,

This is a total violation of Occam's Razor (this is not aimed at
you Larry). It _assumes_ that there are _no_ civilizations
relatively close to us in level of technology. If it doesn't
assume that, if it does allow for extraterrestrial civilizations
relatively close to our level, then it prevents us from finding
them, by telling us to give up and not even try. Isn't that the
message here? It has to be either one it can't be both. It
either assumes no one is near our technology level, so there is
no need to look for such, or there are, but just don't try, just
be bamboozled by visions of "artilects" (whatever the hell those
are).

Are we going to have to go through these useless exercises year
after year, relearning the same lessons again and again? Occam's
Razor tells us that we cannot jump to the highest and most
complicated levels before we have eliminated the simplest and
lowest levels first. This new theory like all the others tells
us to do that, jump to scientifically untestable magic-like
levels right off the bat. Here we go again, another
scientifically useless speculation that wastes time.


Brad









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                Re: UFO Sightings OZ Files P1 - 05.08.2001 -

From: Diane Harrison AUFORN <auforn@Ehome.net.au>
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 06:17:11 +1000
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 17:08:16 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Sightings OZ Files P1 - 05.08.2001 -


 >Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 02:01:07 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Sightings OZ Files P1 - 05.08.2001

 >>Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 22:10:30 +1000
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: Diane Harrison <auforn@Ehome.net.au>
 >>Subject: UFO Sightings OZ Files P1 - 05.08.2001

 >>UFO Sightings OZ Files P1 - 05.08.2001

 >>Follow-up 1800 Callin Code: 01650 30.7.01 QLD

 >>Date: 30.7.01
 >>Day:  Monday
 >>Time Reported : 5.49pm
 >>Location: Brisbane
 >>Reportee: Roseena
 >>Report given to nearest rep: Emma AUFORN QLD

 >Hello Diane:

 >The Kilcoy, QLD case of 25JLY01 sounds interesting. I found the
 >place at 152:33E - 26:56N  in the Australian ANMA Gazetteer:
 >(very useful!)

 >http://www.auslig.gov.au/mapping/names/names.htm

 >If any more details arise, pro or con, I would be interested in
 >hearing about them.  As before, and now that my incoming email
 >is back up, I am at:

 >larryhat@jps.net

 >Others may be interested as well.

 >Its a pity there is only one witness. If others should come
 >forward, it would be a real plus.


Thank you Larry


We will keep you posted


Di


National Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

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(A Non-Profit Organization)

E-Mail: auforn@Ehome.net.au
E-mail: ufologist@powerup.com.au
http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw

ADMINISTRATION:

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Beaudessert 4285
QLD  Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Aug > Aug 6

               Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data -

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:19:53 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 17:09:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data -


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 08:31:21 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >And of course the Lazar story is a monstrous bold-faced lie from
 >beginning to end. He claims to have carried around pounds of
 >so-called (nonexistent) Element 115, when in fact it would be so
 >highly radioactive it would vaporize his skin, etc. His whole
 >story betrays such incredible imbecilic ignorance of nuclear
 >physics (even numbered elements 114 and 118 are the islands of
 >stability not odd numbers such as 115).

Hi Brad.

Although you may be right that Bob Lazar's story about working
on ET technology and flying saucers, including his handling of
Element 115, is a complete lie, your conclusion cannot be
supported just from the knowledge of physics Lazar has exhibited
publicly.

We should not forget that the atoms in a sample consisting of
only one element (such as a piece of 100% Carbon or 100%
Uranium) are not all exactly identical to each other with
respect to the mass of their nucleus. Although the different
isotopes for a given element will have the same chemical
properties, some isotopes will be stable (eg. Carbon 12) while
others will decay or be radioactive (eg. Carbon 14).

 From the patterns observed in plots of the elements (including
their isotopes) and their stability, nuclear physicists
predicted that Element 114 would be the first of several stable
(i.e non- decaying or radioactive) heavier elements. The nucleus
of this stable isotope of Element 114 was to have 114 protons
and 184 neutrons.

Since the recently discovered Element 114 decayed quite rapidly,
it did NOT prove the non-existence of this predicted "island of
stability" because the sum of the neutrons in the two lighter
elements that were fused together to produce Element 114 had
about 8 to 10 neutrons less than the predicted stable isotope.
Until this heavier isotope of Element 114 (or better still,
Lazar's Element 115) is produced, physicists will not be able to
say with confidence if Lazar claims are true or false.


Nick Balaskas









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   Aug > Aug 6

                             MUFON/U.S. Senators

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:42:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 17:10:33 -0400
Subject: MUFON/U.S. Senators


List,

Just returned from vacation to find the latest issue of SUN in
my mail box. On the last page of same is the following
announcement:

"U.S. Senators to Receive MUFON UFO Journal: Thanks to a
financial contribution from radio talk show host Bob Hieronimus
and his wife (both very pro-UFO), every U.S. Senator will
receive a complimentary subscription to the MUFON UFO Journal,
beginning with the July, 2001, issue. MUFON director John
Schuessler hopes for more contributions so he can send free
copies to every member of the House of Representatives."

Anyone here know anymore about this? For instance, whether MUFON
intends to improve the Journal's appearance now that it will be
going out to U.S. Senators, or whether they're satisfied putting
out something that looks like it was produced by a junior
highschool journalism class bereft of a computer, never mind an
art director?

Given the Journal's current amateurish appearance, it will never
get past the secretary opening the Senator's mail.

Another good idea that will ultimately do more harm than good
for ufology's persisting credibility problem(s).

In other words, another blown opportunity...

Dennis Stacy










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   Aug > Aug 6

               Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data -

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 22:01:10 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 18:10:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data -


 >Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:19:53 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data

 >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 08:31:21 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>And of course the Lazar story is a monstrous bold-faced lie from
 >>beginning to end. He claims to have carried around pounds of
 >>so-called (nonexistent) Element 115, when in fact it would be so
 >>highly radioactive it would vaporize his skin, etc. His whole
 >>story betrays such incredible imbecilic ignorance of nuclear
 >>physics (even numbered elements 114 and 118 are the islands of
 >>stability not odd numbers such as 115).

 >Hi Brad.

 >Although you may be right that Bob Lazar's story about working
 >on ET technology and flying saucers, including his handling of
 >Element 115, is a complete lie, your conclusion cannot be
 >supported just from the knowledge of physics Lazar has exhibited
 >publicly.

 >We should not forget that the atoms in a sample consisting of
 >only one element (such as a piece of 100% Carbon or 100%
 >Uranium) are not all exactly identical to each other with
 >respect to the mass of their nucleus. Although the different
 >isotopes for a given element will have the same chemical
 >properties, some isotopes will be stable (eg. Carbon 12) while
 >others will decay or be radioactive (eg. Carbon 14).

 >From the patterns observed in plots of the elements (including
 >their isotopes) and their stability, nuclear physicists
 >predicted that Element 114 would be the first of several stable
 >(i.e non- decaying or radioactive) heavier elements. The nucleus
 >of this stable isotope of Element 114 was to have 114 protons
 >and 184 neutrons.

 >Since the recently discovered Element 114 decayed quite rapidly,
 >it did NOT prove the non-existence of this predicted "island of
 >stability" because the sum of the neutrons in the two lighter
 >elements that were fused together to produce Element 114 had
 >about 8 to 10 neutrons less than the predicted stable isotope.
 >Until this heavier isotope of Element 114 (or better still,
 >Lazar's Element 115) is produced, physicists will not be able to
 >say with confidence if Lazar claims are true or false.

Nick,

Physicists may not be able to pass judgment on Lazar's claims,
but anyone with half a brain who reasons logically (and I'm not
sure that includes the average physicist I have met in my
lifetime) can easily conclude that Lazar totally lacks
credibility.

Simply put, his claims are ludicrous.


Dick











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               Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data -

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 23:01:42 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 18:28:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data -


 >Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:19:53 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data

 >Although you may be right that Bob Lazar's story about working
 >on ET technology and flying saucers, including his handling of
 >Element 115, is a complete lie, your conclusion cannot be
 >supported just from the knowledge of physics Lazar has exhibited
 >publicly.


What a wonderful summary!

Georgina Bruni









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   Aug > Aug 7

                      Are you Ready For The Revolution?

From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 16:57:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 12:05:00 -0400
Subject: Are you Ready For The Revolution?



"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his
life for his friends." (John 15:13)

"This is where I felt I had to go, and we'll see what happens."
Lara Johnstone


Just over 25 years ago, American forces left Vietnam for the
last time. Part of the reason for the withdrawal was the
advancing North Vietnamese forces advancing on the South
Vietnamese capitol. The main reason for the withdrawal, however,
was that the American people had turned on the idea of the war,
and wanted it ended. Demonstrations in the streets of America,
and acts of civil disobedience, had made the idea of continuing
the war intolerable.

In a country that believes it is "Government of the people, by
the people," it now appears that some people have begun to rise
up on the UFO issue. These people believe that like the Vietnam
war it is not a strong scientific or logical argument that will
turn the tide. They believe that, like Vietnam, the issue is
political in nature and political pressure is the main weapon
for turning the tide.

One such woman who has taken a stand on the UFO issue is a 35
year old woman from Oakland California.

The story began on July 22, 2001, when Dr. Steven Greer arrived
in San Francisco to make a presentation of his traveling
Disclosure Project. The event was held at the huge Masonic
Auditorium. Among the 2,000 people in the audience was a woman
by the name of Lara Johnstone.

Lara was a bit skeptical of the whole extraterrestrial thing.
She had no background in Ufology. She had never had a sighting.
A friend sent her an e-mail about the local Disclosure Event.
Lara visited the Disclosure web site on the Internet. After
reading the objective she decided to attend. "I never before
really "believed' Lara wrote to President George Bush, "in
�verifiable evidence' of extraterrestrial visits." The
Disclosure event turned out to be a "reality check" for Laura.

During the event the two hour Disclosure Testimony Tape was
shown. This tape produced by the Disclosure project
[www.disclosureproject.org] was highlights of over 100 hours of
testimony that had been collected from interviews with dozens of
U.S. Government, industrial, and military witnesses to UFO and
extraterrestrial events and secret 'black-ops' projects.
Following the presentation of the video- tape there was a
presentation by Disclosure director Dr. Steven M. Greer and
local San Francisco Project witnesses Carol Rosin (spokesperson
for Dr. Werner Von Braun) and Daniel Sheehan (legal counsel for
the Disclosure Project).

The Disclosure Testimony video was a collection of testimony
clips from military and government people talking about the
reality of the UFO situation. It was made up of two hours of the
100+ hours of testimony with key witnesses that the Disclosure
Project had on file. The testimony that Lara witnessed that
evening was more than she could take. She purchased the
Disclosure book that Greer was selling at the event, which gave
testimony from yet more witnesses telling the true story of what
had happened regarding UFOs since 1947.

Lara decided action was necessary. She chose a form of protest
that she was familiar with - a hunger strike. In late 2000 Lara
had used this protest method successfully against the state of
California. In an E-mail to Charles Huffer, Lara described her
first hunger strike protest.

I went on a hunger strike was against the CA Department of
Corrections and Gov. Gray Davis. After 25 days, they bowed,
admitted -- in writing -- what I had alleged, and what they had
'said', but not in writing. Before the press conference, the
dept head of all of CA's prisons, came up to me and went
ballistic. He started screaming 'who do you think you are' 'how
dare you' and on and on! He did not like being called up by the
South African media, asked to answer very difficult questions
regarding how he runs his prisons!

Following the disclosure event, Lara quickly researched the UFO
subject in preparation for sending a letter to President Bush on
the subject. As a part of this effort she contacted Charles
Huffer, an Arkansas UFO researcher, who on July 28, 2000, had
the opportunity to question President elect Bush while he was on
the campaign trail for President.

During this encounter Huffer asked Bush "Half the public
believes that UFOs are real." Would you finally tell us what the
hell is going on? " Bush replied, " "Sure I will."

A few minutes later Huffer ran into Bush again and the
president-elect stated, " It will be the first thing that he
will do." (He pointed at Dick Cheney who was just walking up)
"He'll get right on it."

Lara used the Huffer encounter with Bush to time the beginning
of her hunger strike. The hunger strike would begin exactly one
year to the day Bush promised he would work to tell the people
about UFOs. She wrote in her July 26, 2001 letter of protest to
President Bush.

One year later, on 28 July 2001, you are now the President and I
again ask you "are you willing to finally tell the American
people and the whole world, the truth about unidentified flying
objects?" Hundreds of high level US government officials are
standing courageous and willing to tell the truth, which can
change our world. Will you give them the opportunity. Can we
begin healing our world? Can we end this endeavor of greed,
corruption, fear and destruction? Can we find a way to take a
stand, step by step? If we continue this way, we'll only end up
where we are going. It doesn't have to be this way. We have a
choice.

As a South African, Lara Johnstone also addressed her letter of
protest to President Thabo Mbeki of South Africa, as well as
President George Bush. She outlined her request,

President Bush and President Mbeki, I am writing to share with
you and all the other leaders around the world my extreme
concern. My concern is so great, that I have decided to go on a
hunger strike, starting July 28, 2001, to death if need be, in
order to express my humble request. My request is that the U.S.
and other governments: 1. Hold open, comprehensive, secrecy-free
hearings to take military/agency witness testimony on events and
evidence relating to an Extraterrestrial presence on and around
Earth. 2. To hold open hearings on advanced energy and
propulsion systems, relating to extraterrestrial phenomena that,
when publicly released, will provide solutions to global
environmental challenges. 3. To enact legislation which will ban
all space-based weapons, and to enact and implement
international treaties and legal standards prohibiting the
weaponization of space. 4. To enact comprehensive legislation to
research, develop and explore space peacefully and cooperatively
with all cultures on Earth and in space.

In an interview with Lara Johnstone, I asked her about her plans
for the hunger strike. She stated, "I'm on my way to D.C. I was
going to do a bus trip across the country. I am hoping to be in
Washington by the 28th of August which would make the hunger
strike at one month, but I'm flexible on that. I have this
feeling that I must not plan to much - that things are going to
work right. Things are going to happen, and I should just be
open and trusting. . . It started on the 28th of July to August
28th will be a month, and then interestingly enough the 28th of
September will be two months and that is the start of the
anti-globalization demonstrations."

Lara has received the expected reactions from people to her
hunger strike. Some have said that she is "totally nuts." One
person told her, "You don't want to just take on the whole world
- now you want to save the aliens too." To this Lara responded,
"I said it's not about that. It's about all of us knowing what's
going on. Are we just here to buy buy buy being little
consumers, or are we here for a bigger purpose? To grow and to
love. For me it's about the truth. With the secrecy we're
spreading more fear, and more fear, and it's separation."

Lara is preparing a web site where people can access the letters
she has sent out, and stay updated on what responses she has
received. She is preparing a letter for all members of Congress,
and is sending out letters to names she received of people
inside the UFO community who might be able to help her.

Robert H. Williams, a man who lost his job at Clinton Community
College in Plattsburgh, New York, for his UFO beliefs, has been
kind enough to help Lara in her time of need. On his personal
web site, Robert is hosting a section with copies of all the
initial correspondence between Lara and Charles Huffer, and the
letter to the President. To view this material go to Mr.
Williams home page, and then to the section on "WHO."

http://members.tripod.com/rhw007/


As President George Bush vacations on his Texas ranch, Lara is
in the process of writing her second letter to him. There has
been no word from the White House, and no major backing by the
UFO or Disclosure Movement community. Then again, it is still
early in the hunger strike, Day 10 as this is being written.
Lara is still confident. As Lara says, "We'll see what happens."

Lara is available for questions or offers of support at
510-823-8109

"Are you ready for the revolution?"

Lara Johnstone, a California woman who began a Hunger Strike for
Disclosure on July 28th.








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   Aug > Aug 8

                Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 20:39:54 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 04:08:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Ledger


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 08:42:19 -0500

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:56:55 EDT
 >>Subject: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>A letter from this past Sunday's Star Ledger (NJ) may shed some
 >>real light on the July 14-15 mystery lights:

 ><snip>

 >>-----

 >>I had earlier suggested that the lights may have been New Jersey
 >>Army or Air National Guard aircraft dropping flares. This was a
 >>Saturday night on a summer weekend. I think that it may be that
 >>our old friends, "the Martians" or their colleagues, may be
 >>flying some ultralights.

 >I'm astonished at the breadth, scope, and depth of your denial,
 >Dad. I have a recording of the video courtesy of MSNBC and with
 >two decades of military aviation experience I can report
 >confidently that that video did _not_ record the airplanes
 >reported by your suspect Star Ledger letter writer. You just
 >demonstrate your own ironic credulity regarding a crumbling
 >point of view you cling to that you must feel slipping beneath
 >your sweaty fingers even now.



Hi Alfred,

His ignorance about the FARS [FAA regulations] governing
ultra-lite flights leaves a lot to be desired as well.


Don Ledger








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   Aug > Aug 8

               Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data -

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 19:48:29 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 04:09:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data -


 >Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:19:53 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data


 >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 08:31:21 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>And of course the Lazar story is a monstrous bold-faced lie from
 >>beginning to end. He claims to have carried around pounds of
 >>so-called (nonexistent) Element 115, when in fact it would be so
 >>highly radioactive it would vaporize his skin, etc. His whole
 >>story betrays such incredible imbecilic ignorance of nuclear
 >>physics (even numbered elements 114 and 118 are the islands of
 >>stability not odd numbers such as 115).

 >Hi Brad.

 >Although you may be right that Bob Lazar's story about working
 >on ET technology and flying saucers, including his handling of
 >Element 115, is a complete lie, your conclusion cannot be
 >supported just from the knowledge of physics Lazar has exhibited
 >publicly.

 >We should not forget that the atoms in a sample consisting of
 >only one element (such as a piece of 100% Carbon or 100%
 >Uranium) are not all exactly identical to each other with
 >respect to the mass of their nucleus. Although the different
 >isotopes for a given element will have the same chemical
 >properties, some isotopes will be stable (eg. Carbon 12) while
 >others will decay or be radioactive (eg. Carbon 14).

 >From the patterns observed in plots of the elements (including
 >their isotopes) and their stability, nuclear physicists
 >predicted that Element 114 would be the first of several stable
 >(i.e non- decaying or radioactive) heavier elements. The nucleus
 >of this stable isotope of Element 114 was to have 114 protons
 >and 184 neutrons.

 >Since the recently discovered Element 114 decayed quite rapidly,
 >it did NOT prove the non-existence of this predicted "island of
 >stability" because the sum of the neutrons in the two lighter
 >elements that were fused together to produce Element 114 had
 >about 8 to 10 neutrons less than the predicted stable isotope.
 >Until this heavier isotope of Element 114 (or better still,
 >Lazar's Element 115) is produced, physicists will not be able to
 >say with confidence if Lazar claims are true or false.


 >Nick Balaskas


Hi Nick,

Sorry, any nuclear physicist worth his salt can say today with
confidence that Lazar's claims are utter pseudoscientific
hogwash and don't need to have element 114's or 115's isotope
series produced.

Lazar claims he actually was the one who discovered element 115
in his first few months at Area 51 in 1988, yet to this day he
does not understand enough about nuclear physics to know to
specify the mass number or isotope number, as anyone with even
the tiniest comprehension knows is the critical identification
of a nuclide (ever hear of "uranium 235" or "carbon 14"? those
are the isotope numbers). Fortunately, Lazar's ignorance of
physics led himself into a trap because he and his sycophants
put together a "physics data table" of made-up alleged data and
they accidentally went too far with their invented numbers,
because they didn't realize that the product of the density and
molar volume gives you the mass number and it comes out about
424, which is way too high and far above any possible "island of
(relative) stability" around 298. They also made up a fictitious
melting point for their imaginary element 115, supposedly
1,740�C or higher than even iron or aluminum, betraying a total
lack of understanding the Periodic Table of the Elements as 115
would be chemically related to the _low_ melting point soft
metal _bismuth_ so their precious 115 if enough of it could be
made to see and would last long enough would probably be a
liquid at room temperature like mercury or even a gas.

You and Lazar are mistaken in thinking that "nuclear physicists
predicted that Element 114 would be the first of several stable
(i.e non- decaying or radioactive) heavier elements." No one in
their right minds imagines they are going to find
NON-radioactive isotopes of these elements. The American
Institute of Physics explains that physicists are hoping that
element 114's isotope 298 will be _relatively_ "stable" or
"stable compared to its neighbors in the chart of the nuclides"
-- meaning that it may have "an expected lifetime of years
rather than milliseconds or microseconds." (See:
www.aip.org/enews/physnews/1997/split/pnu344-3.htm)

So far isotopes 287 and 289 of element 114 have been produced by
the Dubna lab in Russia and they turn out to have half lives of
only 5 and 30 _seconds_.

A transuranic element with even a half-life of "years" would
emit such deadly ionizing radiation that it would make
plutonium, one of the most toxic substances known to man due to
its radioactivity (half life 24,000 years for Pu-239), seem like
safe to handle with one's bare hands in comparison (an utter
absurdity). Yet Lazar claims he smuggled out of Area 51 a whole
pound or half-kilo of element 115 which would be even more
unstable than 114 because of the uneven number of protons and
the resulting incomplete and unstable nuclear shell
configuration.

It is manifestly clear to me that Lazar heard something about
element 114 from some some popular reading and screwed it up,
got the number wrong, didn't understand the nuclear physics so
as to know how to correct the number 115 to 114, and then
because of colossal ignorance of comic book nuclear physics
failed to realize that the predicted "stability" of 114 didn't
mean total "stability" as if it was _non-radioactive_ and never
understood that it would still be extremely radioactive and
deadly, the "stability" being only to a relative degree compared
to surrounding even more volatile elements/isotopes with
half-lives of fractions of a second.

Why do you coddle and defend these notorious frauds and
purveyors of monstrous ignorance who bring such total discredit
to UFO research and to science?


Brad








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   Aug > Aug 8

                Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 20:48:49 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 04:11:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Ledger


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 21:27:31 -0700

 >>From: Bob Young Y<oungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:56:55 EDT
 >>Subject: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>A letter from this past Sunday's Star Ledger (NJ) may shed some
 >>real light on the July 14-15 mystery lights:

 >Or no light at all, whatever it was it was not Aircraft, at
 >least conventional aircraft -yes I am willing to say there
 >may be a prosaic reason!

 >>-----

 >>Logical Explanation

 >>When I heard about the mysterious lights in Carteret, the first
 >>thing I did was call my husband because he works at a data
 >>center there. I figured maybe he would have a clue as to what
 >>the mystery was about.

 >>Maybe he was the only one with a grip on reality. According to
 >>my husband, the lights were nothing more than a group of planes
 >>approaching the airport (Newark Airport, one on the 3 big in NYC
 >>area - WTH) slowly and quietly. He said the planes flew by while
 >>he was smoking a cigarette outside the building. He too was
 >>intrigued by the mysterious lights when he first saw them, but
 >>when they flew over the data center it became clear the lights
 >>were airplanes.

 >A large formation in one of the busiest chunks of airspace at
 >night - no way at all. The FAA would be on the perps. Like flies
 >on a fresh Cowpie. Plus there are too many witness reports that
 >state otherwise, including the FAA. Bob have you ever been
 >there? Yeesh. Flying formation even military (it isn't done much
 >anymore) is dicey at best. Yes, I have flown formation in an
 >airshow and when I was an Airtanker pilot (you have to - to see
 >the leadplane) in the smoke and flame. Just some idiots tooling
 >around at night? Come on. I personally know a C-54 Tanker Crew
 >that was lost for a mere "Photo Op". Also, Bob,as I recall,
 >Newark didn't have any record of such flights.

 >This reminds me of the "Ultralight" theory with the Hudson
 >valley sightings. Given the state of ultralights, both
 >structurally and mechanically (mostly powered by high-strung,
 >and very unreliable two-stroke go-cart/snowmobile engines). Back
 >in the Eighties, night - let alone formation flying - would have
 >been very stupid, idiotic, Wile E. Coyote (Acme - a name you can
 >trust) off-the-mesa dumb.

 >I get damn' tired of people who claim pilots are out doing
 >dangerous things, or they are people don't know what they are
 >talking about. As in the orthodox priest, engineer, pilot who
 >witnessed the flares - see Flier's files, current issue. But of
 >course he is a religious fanatic and despite his engineering
 >(scientific) background and pilot training, his observation to
 >some is obviously flawed. Along with the video camera, cops, an
 >audience of 100's.

 >>Human imagination is quite amusing. Perhaps some people need
 >>drama in their lives.Maybe some lives are just so boring that
 >>people need to fabricate stories about UFO's. The evidence is
 >>clear. Let's be logical.

 >I haven't had a boring life, and this argument isn't Logical.

 >>Carol Giroux,
 >>Edison, [NJ]

 >>-----

 >>I had earlier suggested that the lights may have been New Jersey
 >>Army or Air National Guard aircraft dropping flares. This was a
 >>Saturday night on a summer weekend. I think that it may be that
 >>our old friends, "the Martians" or their colleagues, may be
 >>flying some ultralights.

 >See my reference to Ultralights above, also it is, ahem,
 >'illegal' to fly Ultralights at night, in controlled airspace,
 >over populated areas. Period. Although through the process of
 >natural selection, Ultralights have gotten somewhat more
 >reliable (like small four-strokes for engines) again, the
 >Federalies would have their collective genitalia hanging on the
 >flagpole of the local FAA office! None of what you are
 >describing is a haw haw game, but serious. Also, why the hell is
 >the military dropping flares over a heavily populated area?


Hi GT,

Why would the military be dropping flaes in the biggest TRACON
in the country, in any event. It's at least 100 miles on a side.
Mucho illegal. Can you imagine the commercial heavies sucking
the little buggers in to their high by-pass fans. Any nonesense
about ultra-lites is unworthy of consideration. Flying in that
TRACON? Surely Bob can do better than this.

Don Ledger








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                Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 21:22:00 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 04:14:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Ledger


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 12:27:15 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 21:27:31 -0700

 >>>From: Bob Young Y<oungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:56:55 EDT
 >>>Subject: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>I get damn' tired of people who claim pilots are out doing
 >>dangerous things

 >I've seen them.

 >>or they are people [who] don't know what they are
 >>talking about.

 >Never claimed that, if fact I got the confirmation of what I had
 >seen from ultralight pilots who did it.

 ><snip>

 >>it is, ahem, 'illegal' to fly Ultralights at night, in controlled
 >>airspace, over populated areas. Period.

 >Yes?

 >G.T.: whether the N.J. lights were ultralights, fire balloons, a
 >miracle (I assign a low probability to that), or whatever, may
 >eventually be determined.

 >You are not the first pilot who has told me that ultralight
 >group flights in the dark have never happened, just because they
 >aren't supposed to.



Bob,

What you are trying to imply is nonesense pure and simple. There
is no way you are going to get a dozen pilots to flaunt the law
in this manner in what any pilot would consider rank stupidity
and outright dangerous to flight safety. I don't care what one
pilot told you. Has it occured to you that the pilot who told
you this was an outright liar? Your the sceptic yet you would
believe this nonesense? It's something only a novice would
believe.

 >You are not the first pilot who has told me that ultralight
 >group flights in the dark have never happened, just because they
 >aren't supposed to.

What's that supposed to mean?
Not ultra-lites or flares.


Don Ledger








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                          Secrecy News -- 08/06/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@igc.org>
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 17:12:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 04:33:59 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/06/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
August 6, 2001

**WEN HO LEE AND PREPUBLICATION REVIEW
**CIA CONTRETEMPS IN KOREA


WEN HO LEE AND PREPUBLICATION REVIEW

A front page story in the Sunday New York Times illustrated
widespread confusion about whether government employees who have
had access to classified information are obliged to submit to
government censorship of their publications even after
retirement.

The August 5 Times story reported an allegation that former Los
Alamos scientist Wen Ho Lee may have violated censorship rules
by disclosing the draft of his forthcoming memoir to his
co-author and to his editor before gaining government approval.

But it turns out that the entire controversy is predicated on an
error.

"Individuals like Dr. Lee who receive security clearances,
especially high-level ones that give access to nuclear secrets,
pledge to submit any manuscripts to federal censors before
letting other people see them," the Times stated.

That is not correct. As a former employee or contractor, Wen Ho
Lee had no legal obligation to submit his manuscript for
pre-publication review, according to Energy Department officials
and former Lab employees.

"Essentially, the requirement to submit for review only applies
to those with active access authorizations (clearances)," said
Jim Danneskiold of the Public Affairs Office at Los Alamos
National Laboratory. This requirement is found at 10 CFR
1045.44.

"However, when anyone with a clearance leaves service with the
DOE or a contractor, and gives up the clearance, he or she signs
a statement acknowledging that they are still prohibited under
penalty of law from revealing classified information," he noted.

"Therefore," Mr. Danneskiold continued, "not to have a
manuscript reviewed that had even a remote possibility of
containing classified would be foolish, since it would open up
the person to potential prosecution."

Fortunately, however, not everything that is foolish is illegal.

The statement (DOE Form 5631.29) that all cleared Energy
Department employees and contractors must sign upon retirement
acknowledging their continuing responsibility to protect
classified information may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/f5631-29.pdf

"Note that the form says nothing about submitting manuscripts
for review prior to publication," said engineer William
Sullivan, who retired from Sandia National Laboratory earlier
this year and who has been an outspoken defender of Wen Ho Lee.

"I can understand why," Mr. Sullivan said. "Such a regulation
would be so unworkable it isn't funny. Could you imagine all
ex-employees sending everything they write to DOE to determine
whether or not the material is classified?"

The upshot is that the "controversy" over whether Wen Ho Lee's
handling of his manuscript complied with security procedures is
out of place. Although Lee has a continuing obligation to
protect classified information, he has no obligation to submit
any manuscripts for pre-publication review. The fact that he did
so voluntarily only demonstrates an abundance of caution on his
part.

Government-wide, the overwhelming majority of cleared personnel
are not subject to prepublication review after their clearance
is terminated.

This is spelled out in the briefing book on Standard Form 312
(SF 312), which is the "Classified Information Nondisclosure
Agreement" that is signed by most employees and contractors when
they are approved for authorized access to classified
information:

"There is no explicit or implicit prepublication review
requirement in the SF 312, as there is none in the SF 189 and SF
189-A. However, if an individual who has had access to
classified information is concerned that something he or she has
prepared for publication may contain classified information,
that individual should be encouraged to submit it to his or her
current or last employing agency for a voluntary review. In this
way the individual will minimize the possibility of a subsequent
action against him or her as a result of an unauthorized
disclosure."

See the SF 312 briefing book, published by the Information
Security Oversight Office, here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/isoo/sf312.html

The situation is different for CIA employees, who do pledge in
their nondisclosure agreements to submit any draft publications
for government review, "either during my employment...or at any
time thereafter, prior to discussing it or showing it to anyone
who is not authorized to have access."

The CIA performs such reviews several hundred times a year,
according to John Hollister Hedley, who formerly chaired the CIA
Publications Review Board. The submissions from CIA employees
ranged "from 1,000-page book manuscripts to one-page letters to
the editor. There are speeches, journal articles, theses,
op-eds, book reviews, and movie scripts. There are scholarly
treatises, works of fiction, and, recently, a cookbook."

See Mr. Hedley's article "Reviewing the Work of CIA Authors"
from the CIA journal "Studies in Intelligence" (Spring 1998)
posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/hedley.html


CIA CONTRETEMPS IN KOREA

The U.S. intelligence liaison relationship with Korea has been
rocked in the last two weeks by the discovery that a CIA officer
illicitly obtained sensitive information about North Korea
through unauthorized contacts with a Korean intelligence
officer.

"The National Intelligence service (NIS) voiced its displeasure
to the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency over its contact with an
NIS official that led to the leakage of top secret information,
and demanded measures to prevent the recurrence of such an
incident," according to an August 2 report from the Yonhap news
agency in Seoul.

The Korean officer, identified only as Ahn, was fired on July 23
due to his unauthorized contacts with the CIA official,
described as a Korean-American named Yoon who was serving as
first secretary at the U.S. Embassy in Seoul.

The newspaper Chungang Ilbo, which disclosed the location of the
CIA station in Seoul (on the fifth floor of the U.S. Embassy),
the number of CIA staff, and the name of the station chief, said
"It's an unprecedented controversy."

For other Koreans, however, there was an obvious parallel in the
case of Korean-American Robert Kim. Kim was an employee at the
U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence who was arrested in 1996 for
providing classified information to a military attache at the
Korean Embassy in Washington. He was sentenced to a nine-year
prison term. Repeated Korean appeals for his pardon have been
rebuffed.

The official web site of Korea's National Intelligence Service
is silent on the latest events. But it may be found here:

http://www.nis.go.kr/english/

******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message: subscribe
secrecy_news [your email address]


Secrecy News is archived at:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web: www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691









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                Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 21:36:37 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 04:49:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Ledger


 >Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:30:09 -0400
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

 >>From: Jan M. Pheneger <jan0320@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:43:52 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>I do not buy the military flare explanation either. I have
 >>friends in the National Guard, and one who is also a sheriff's
 >>deputy. They do not drop flares over populated areas. One can
 >>only imagine the liability issues if they did, and a innocent
 >>civilian was hurt. Forget the nonsense explanations, and lets
 >>see the videos and pictures that any witnesses have get turned
 >>over to an expert for study. Then we can all derive our opinions
 >>on the New Jersey Lights, based on an experts evaluation.

 >Hi Jan;

 >The flare situation is not a nonsense explanation. These things
 >do happen and hotshot or rookie pilots disregard MOA (Military
 >Operations Area) boundary and time restrictions. To my knowledge
 >there has never been any public clarification afforded by the
 >culprits themselves. I have documented examples of several
 >violation episodes that generate UFO sightings, later explained
 >when the culprits were 'tracked down' during later
 >investigation.

 >I would further liken the situation to the 'mystery boom'
 >phenomena where officialdom denies having jet aircraft breaking
 >the sound barrier when people complain about the mysterious
 >noises heard across the country. Due to the property damage
 >often reported after a mystery boom, their denial of having any
 >of their pilots responsible for breaking the sound barrier makes
 >sense in the face of legal issues that would bog things down. As
 >you stated above, liability issues are a factor. But in the end
 >game, we see from past cases (such as Ohio in '96 and '97,
 >Evansville, Indiana in '98 and the Arizona sightings w/Maryland
 >A.N.G.) that the flare-spewing culprits are a little hesitant
 >about stepping forward and don't usually do so without a fight.


Hi kenny,

In this case you are forgetting the fact that something had to
be dead center in the NY TRACON in oder to drop the flares, and
that would have been tracked by same. You would have to fly a
long way from the nearest MOA and then at least 50 miles into
the NY TRACON in order to drop the flares in the first place.
If, as you say, this was some hotshot-I disagree, the pilot was
a rank amateur and well out of his or her military flight
program parameters. And in this day and age of GPS, I can't
seriously believe any military pilot would be that lost.

Don Ledger









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                Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 21:39:30 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 04:50:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Ledger


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:21:13 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Jan M. Pheneger <jan0320@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:43:52 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>FAA Regulations, as some may know, and some may not, carries a
 >>very stiff fine, and pilots losing their licence to just "turn
 >>off their lights."

 >Ultralight pilots and ultralight airplanes are unlicensed,
 >although they are _supposed_ to fly under FAA Regs.

The pilots are unlicensed - not the aircraft. The pilots can
still be charged with busting the regs and public endangerment,
licensed or not.


Don Ledger










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                      Re: New Insights On SETI - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 20:01:08 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 04:53:02 -0400
Subject: Re: New Insights On SETI - Hatch


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:19:28 EDT
 >Subject: Re: New Insights On SETI
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 00:42:34 -0700
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: New Insights On SETI

 >>>From: Henny van der Pluijm <h.vanderpluijm@planet.nl>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: New Insights On SETI
 >>>Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 02:08:04 +0200

 >>>Dear Errol,

 >>>I hope this is a contribution to your mailing list. It is from
 >>>www.kurzweilai.net. The aurthor is a top researcher in the
 >>>field of artificial intelligence.

 >>>-----

 >>>Answering Fermi's Paradox

 >>>by

 >>>Hugo de Garis

 >>>Does a vast array of superintellligences already exist? Hugo de
 >>>Garis thinks that SETI is shortsighted in their search for
 >>>extraterrestrial intelligence. They should set their scopes on
 >>>artilects. [ artificial intellects ]

 >><snip>

 >>I found the article by de Garis very interesting. While one
 >>might take issue with all or parts of it, the concept of using
 >>artificial intelligence as a means of interstellar exploration
 >>appeals to me.

 >>This removes any biological constraints over the times and
 >>distances involved, requiring only great patience of the part of
 >>the originators (actual living beings) who may have extended
 >>their own life-spans indefinitely.

 >>Why don't they communicate with us? Who ever said that they
 >>should? I can think of reasons they might study us, perhaps in
 >>depth, and with carefully measured distance... without so much
 >>as a giving us a nod of the head.

 >>They might have every reason to study Earth and everything on
 >>it, and no reason at all to establish any "dialogue". They might
 >>even (assuming they exist) have reasons to _avoid_ a dialogue.

 >>One bear (Barney Bruin) had a good question, in an unpublished
 >>short story I once wrote. This was a group of bears so far out
 >>in the wilderness that humans were virtually non-existent.

 >>Occasionally however, rumors of men standing upright and doing
 >>incomprehensible things would filter into the bear-lore and bear
 >>legends; stock in trade at bear-meetings.

 >>"Humans" (the bear word is unpronounceable) would puff smoke out
 >>of their truncated snouts... step out of giant dragonflies and
 >>OH the noise _those_ made!

 >>Barney Bruin simply asked: "If these 'humans' exist, and they
 >>are so smart and all, why don't they leave a big salmon by the
 >>offering tree like they're supposed to? "


 >This is a total violation of Occam's Razor (this is not aimed at
 >you Larry). It _assumes_ that there are _no_ civilizations
 >relatively close to us in level of technology. If it doesn't
 >assume that, if it does allow for extraterrestrial civilizations
 >relatively close to our level, then it prevents us from finding
 >them, by telling us to give up and not even try. Isn't that the
 >message here? It has to be either one it can't be both. It
 >either assumes no one is near our technology level, so there is
 >no need to look for such, or there are, but just don't try, just
 >be bamboozled by visions of "artilects" (whatever the hell those
 >are).

 >Are we going to have to go through these useless exercises year
 >after year, relearning the same lessons again and again? Occam's
 >Razor tells us that we cannot jump to the highest and most
 >complicated levels before we have eliminated the simplest and
 >lowest levels first. This new theory like all the others tells
 >us to do that, jump to scientifically untestable magic-like
 >levels right off the bat. Here we go again, another
 >scientifically useless speculation that wastes time.


Hello Brad:

I don't think there cannot be civilizations at about our present
level out there, its more a matter of distance. I presume de
Garis takes a similar view.

I favor any sort of SETI effort .. even UFO watching, as long as
there is some chance of learning something. If an "artilect"
takes the form of a highly advanced smart probe-vehicle, it may
still be seen if it gets too close. If it takes samples it might
leave traces. Electromagnetic and other effects may be noted, if
poorly understood at first.

I certainly don't suggest any sort of magic that is entirely
beyond our ken, no "mysteries of the faith" or anything along
those lines. If Hugo de Garis expressed such views, I must have
missed it.


Best

- Larry Hatch









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                Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 15:49:47 +1000
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 04:55:09 -0400
Subject: Re:  Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 08:31:21 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com


 >>Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 12:35:46 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data

 >And of course the Lazar story is a monstrous bold-faced lie from
 >beginning to end. He claims to have carried around pounds of
 >so-called (nonexistent) Element 115, when in fact it would be so
 >highly radioactive it would vaporize his skin, etc.


Lazar story may or may not be true, though through my
investigations I have concluded Lazar was recruited/hired or
said he was hired around the same time JPL was looking for new
forms of solid rockets for the shuttles and the Star Wars
program. As per Lazars old web site, (which seems to have be
taken down) and Stan Friedman's site.

He (Lazar) was very experienced with solid fuel type rockets.
Given the fact Lazar spent most, if not all of his time playing
around with these type of rockets from a very early age, it is
not beyond people like JPL to recruit someone like Lazar whom
seemed to have a real talent with the afore said. (Even if they
don't have degrees covering their walls)

In my humble opinion, I feel Lazar was working for JPL. But
didn't work with Elements such as 115, but rather was given the
information by someone within JPL who was working with it. (Why
they picked Lazar to spill the beans is anybodies guess.) But I
can see this happening or Lazar over heard other scientist
talking.

Also, it is not beyond JPL as with other such institutions to
leak false information to suspect personal to see if they are
trust worthy. This is also is something to keep in mind.

Still the fact remains, Elements like 115 and others do exist,
contrary to what we were lead to believe in the past.

 >His whole
 >story betrays such incredible imbecilic ignorance of nuclear
 >physics (even numbered elements 114 and 118 are the islands of
 >stability not odd numbers such as 115).

Being an uneven numbers has nothing to do with it really, the
main factor with elements like these is there environment. 115
is from the same family of elements that magnetic fields get
there power/energy from. Instability as with chaos in the right
environment in fact brings about order and stability. So the
above comment cannot be taken as totally factual I feel.

Some years ago I learnt elements like 115 needed a catalyst
element to get them to release there energy, given the fact that
this catalyst element was in the 200 range and said to be found
only on the moon. Stories about the moon being mined by Aliens
and a story about the US being told by Aliens not to return to
the moon, caught more than just my interest.

At the end of the day, we are nothing more than children playing
with things we have little understanding of and those that have
just a small understanding of such things, warn of the dangers
associated with such little understanding. Which for me is the
real worry, WHY do these people with an understanding go so far
out of their way to warn us? AND why do we not heed their
warnings?









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                       Re: MUFON/U.S. Senators - Lietz

From: Haiko Lietz <hyco@haikolietz.de>
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 11:10:26 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 04:56:39 -0400
Subject: Re: MUFON/U.S. Senators - Lietz


 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: MUFON/U.S. Senators
 >Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:42:43 -0500

 >"U.S. Senators to Receive MUFON UFO Journal: Thanks to a
 >financial contribution from radio talk show host Bob Hieronimus
 >and his wife (both very pro-UFO), every U.S. Senator will
 >receive a complimentary subscription to the MUFON UFO Journal,
 >beginning with the July, 2001, issue. MUFON director John
 >Schuessler hopes for more contributions so he can send free
 >copies to every member of the House of Representatives."

 >Anyone here know anymore about this? For instance, whether MUFON
 >intends to improve the Journal's appearance now that it will be
 >going out to U.S. Senators, or whether they're satisfied putting
 >out something that looks like it was produced by a junior
 >highschool journalism class bereft of a computer, never mind an
 >art director?

Hi all,

it's just too bad that Richard Hall isn't writing the column
anymore. The journal will be missing his cool and logic sense.
Mr. Hall and Mr. Schuessler, couldn't you have cleared this
problem under just four eyes? I guess better speakers for the
symposium 2001 would have been too expensive ...

Besides that I want to criticize book reviews of new age titles
by Dwight Conelly, that sometimes are just too positive for a
journal with a scientific approach.

Best regards

HL








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                           THE WATCHDOG - 08-07-01

From: Royce J.Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 09:59:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 04:58:25 -0400
Subject: THE WATCHDOG - 08-07-01


UFOWATCHDOG.COM
"Don't Trip On Your Open Mind"
http://www.ufowatchdog.com


***NEWS***

~ Sean David Morton: Lie After Lie
~ UPDATED - Reed Hoax: How Many Lies Are Enough?
~ Strange Lights Frighten Residents of Pradera
~ MSNBC Takes A Look At Roswell UFO Crash
~ Alien Skull...NOT!
~ Scientist Says Balls of Light Create Crop Circles

***GOT SOMETHING TO SAY?***

That's easy! E-mail to ufowatchdog@earthlink.net  Your comments
are always welcome!










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                Re: Are you Ready For The Revolution? - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 07:29:29 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 04:59:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Are you Ready For The Revolution? - Young


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 16:57:11 -0400
 >Subject: Are you Ready For The Revolution?
 >To: www.whitehouse.gov@altavista.com

<snip>

 >"Are you ready for the revolution?"

 >Lara Johnstone, a California woman who began a Hunger Strike
for >Disclosure on July 28th.

What? Endanger her life in support of the fantasies of the likes
of Clifford Stone?

Sad, sad, very sad. And pathetic. If anybody needs evidence that
people can actually be harmed by all of this paranoid nonsense,
it is Lara Johnstone.


Bob Young









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                 Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 7 Aug 2001 06:47:57 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 05:03:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Hamilton


 >Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:31:54 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 16:34:00 -0700

 ><snip>

 >>If you don't have the Ramey material, let me know and I'll send
 >>you the latest version. It should be in a section labeled 'Ft
 >>Worth Photos'

 >No...don't have 'em. Only the AA footage (sans the
 >"debris footage.)

 >>The symbols are vague but no more vague than some of the photos
 >>you analyze on a daily basis at your site.

 >I tend to let people versed in image processing do the looking,
 >then make hypothetical conjectures about what various features
 >might represent _if_ artificial. I'm big on qualifying the
 >anomalies in question with "if," as I don't think we'll know one
 >way or the other until we go there in person. However, your
 >point is well-taken.

 >>But "completely spurious" is far too harsh and implies that
 >>our work is counterfeit or in some way false.

 >It's not the work that I think is flawed, but the mechanism of
 >perception that allows a squiggly line in one image to resemble
 >(kind of) a squiggly line in another image.

 ><snip>

 >>I agree that the AA is not the classic Roswell. As far as we can
 >>tell, the AA crash happened in New Mexico, near Roswell, and the
 >>men who stayed on site were supplied in Roswell. But I see no
 >>way to account for the connections between the two sets of
 >>debris, unless both sets came from similar crafts.

 >What if the Roswell story falls, as I believe is in
 >the process of happening?

It won't happen becaue of Pflock's book. Read some paragraphs
from it in the bookstore on Friday. Same old Mogul balloon
hypothesis (not a certainty at all). He critisizes testimony
that doesn't agree with his conclusions and supports testimony
he believes does.

Then why are the images of the debris in Ramey's office photos
not consistent with that of a Mogul balloon. Why does Sheridan
Cavitt still stick to the weather balloon story?

No, I think Pflock's book will just follow Kal Korff's book to
the graveyard of unsold books.


-Bill H








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                            FAA Reports And NIDs

From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson@alienjigsaw.com>
Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 11:25:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 05:07:44 -0400
Subject: FAA Reports And NIDs


To All:

I am posting this as an 'FYI' only.

This may be old news, but I've received a few e-mails from some
upset people about this.

Apparently, they feel as if the information regarding these
sightings will not be made public now.

http://www.nidsci.org/news/faa.html


Thanks,

K. Wilson






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                    Re: Voyager Newsletter No. 18 - Hale

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 16:38:50 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 05:13:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Voyager Newsletter No. 18 - Hale


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 13:31:00 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Voyager Newsletter No. 18
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >Worst of all, Easton has a fundamental contradiction he is
 >hiding: He cannot have his hypothetical balloon quickly enough
 >reinflated for takeoff for a sighting lasting just a few minutes
 >unless it was already almost bouyant enough to be airborne. If
 >it was so bouyant it would have virtually no weight to impress
 >into the ground.


Brad,

I was under the premise that anyone flying anything around the
skies, needed to have some kind of notification system with the
authorities?

Why doesn't James give us the Balloon club they belonged to?

And have the local aviation officials given any data to suppose
that there were balloons flying around the skies at the time of
the incident?

Where is the data to propose that such a balloon was airborne at
the time?

And how many people have validated such balloon sightings from
that time frame ( Public Citizens ).

And do we really think that these two balloonists would be able
to keep such an incident under their hats for so long. I am sure
if the events were as James prescribes, surely these guys would
have told such an event to their friends , families at some
stage and we do know how stories get filtered out.

Roy..









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                  Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Morris

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 17:30:01 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 05:16:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Morris


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:07:12 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 15:49:48 -0700

 >>I should have written "not only a balloon, mogul or otherwise".
 >>I think you have to look very carefully and follow Neil Morris's
 >>line of reasoning. It's also important to study the debris
 >>footage in the AA and see the connections between it and the FW
 >>debris.

 >I have many times reviewed his "line of reasoning" on his
 >website and find it bizarre, unsubstantiated, and technically
 >inaccurate -- criticism which now will no doubt get me damned
 >and vilified even though there can be no doubt that I am
 >correct. He apparently still defends the "eagle seal" on the
 >Ramey message, since it still appears on his website, when in
 >fact all it is is a jumble of lines of text, not a circular
 >emblem, seen on the message at a very steep angle. The text in
 >that far upper left corner is only about 15� off from seeing the
 >paper edge-on but his interpretation of the purported "seal" is
 >about 45� off of horizontal edge-on. That is a factor 3x error.

Brad, As I've said to you before on the point of the Ramey
message your interpretation and "model" takes zero account of
the paper _not_ being a "flat surface" when observational
details (light gradients) show it's a highly complex set of
curved surfaces.

 >The simulation experiment he did in response to my challenge
 >proves it because it shows his "eagle seal" having to run right
 >off the top edge of the paper, thus proving it physically could
 >not possibly be an "eagle seal."

Here you don't seem to grasp the idea indicated in the image
that the paper at the point the "seal runs off the top edge" is
actually curved at or beyond the plane of observation, over the
"visible horizon" but still there, we're dealing with an object
in 3 dimensional space here even though it's only a 2d image.

 >His simulated paper looks
 >nothing like his interpretation of a supposed "seal." His "seal"
 >superimposed over the Ramey message runs from Ramey's thumb at
 >the half-way fold in the paper and covers the entire 3-inch high
 >top half of the paper all the way to the top and right off the
 >edge, stretching out nearly 4 inches high when the top half of
 >the paper itself is only about 3 inches high and the seal is
 >supposed to be only about 1.5 inches in diameter.

You miss the point of the demo images completely, in that they
demonstrate the effect generated by the combination of
foreshortening due to the acute angles involved combined with
the curved surfaces indicated on the message paper. Because of
these points it _is_ possible for a seal/stamp placed in the top
left corner of the message paper to be seen where I believe it
is located in the image. There was only 1 example sheet used in
the demo images and you see it in one image fully opened, this
same demo sheet produced IMHO a very convincing mock up of what
is seen in the Ramey Message image. As for quibbles regarding
seal sizes etc, I produced demo sheets with seals sized larger
and smaller than the one finally used, all produced similar
results, the one used seemed closest sizewise to the original,
but producing an identical copy was not my aim in this exercise.

 >(I have to infer and estimate these dimensions because he does
 >not bother to give them to us on the webpage, a very incomplete
 >procedure to say the least.

If you give me the exact dimensions of the Ramey Message I'll
re-run the experiment, as it is there is little scale reference
to be had within the FW pictures and to run complex 3d modeling
software on the images that might give such sizes accurately
it's required to know exact details of the camera/lens system
used. As the Speed Graphic had interchangeable lens and was
supplied with a range of "standard" lens, and as JBJ has no
recollection of lens used (why should he) it would require
finding a known scaled feature in the same plane as the message
just to estimate sizes. Seals used around that time varied
greatly in size, I've seen samples in use on period documents
from 3/4" thro 2+", they could be part of a letter head and pre
printed or in the form of a "hand stamp" or machine date/time
stamp, all seem to have the familiar tram-lines inner and outer
rim as seen on the message

 >So if I am a little off, and maybe
 >the "seal" is say only 1.25 inches across, all the other figures
 >should be scaled accordingly, and it has absolutely no effect on
 >my conclusions whatsoever which depend solely on the relative
 >scale or ratios between the various dimensions not on their
 >absolute values.)

Brad, I'd have no arguments if we were dealing with _flat_
folded paper but we're not, the top left of that sheet curves up
and presents itself at a far more favorable angle than you
accept, but check out the way the paper is illuminated in the
image. That left corner is bright compared to say the area just
above the thumbnail, yes, how so?, if this was a flat surface
the observed illumination would be uniform. The only way, seeing
this image was illuminated from a point source close by the
camera must be that the angle of the corner's surface is raised
at a greater angle than that in the thumb area, as I say you
cannot treat the message paper as a flat surface because it
isn't flat, the top half of the message isn't you're uniform 15
degrees or otherwise to the observation plane because the
observed illumination isn't uniform, it changes with the curves
and folds of the paper.

If you want to see just how curved the paper is take a close
look at the paper as seen in the Bettmann Ramey Dubose image
where the paper can be seen fully unfolded but text side away
from the camera. If you look at the lower edge, though this is
intersected by the main fold it's quite evident the paper is
holding a distinct curve, in fact one could say this might
support the premise the message had only recently been around
the roller in a typewriter and supporting the thought it
originated locally at FWAAF.

 >He has his interpretation of the "seal" oriented so that the top
 >is at the natural 12 o'clock position on the computer screen
 >that one would expect. But if you look at the top edge of the
 >Ramey paper you must rotate your head about 30� to the right, to
 >the 1 o'clock position, to properly view the paper in the upper
 >left corner at the correct orientation. Thus his interpretation
 >of the alleged "seal" is actually rotated about 30� incorrectly.
 >(His paper simulation fails to correctly match the Ramey paper
 >on this point since it conveniently only rotates about 15� to
 >the right, hiding half the rotation error.)

If this was a handstamp the orientation could be way out
depending on how the clerk that struck it slept the night
before, but as I mention above the demo sheet was produced just
to demo a point not as a detailed reproduction. I think deducing
exact orientation of the seal is highly debatable considering
the small amount of image data available but those twin seal rim
tramtracks _are_ there and visible.

 >Again what he interprets as dark blobs comprising an "eagle" in
 >a seal at one angle is in fact blobs of about 8-10 lines of text
 >in the first half of the message, seen almost on-edge at the
 >correct 1 o'clock rotation of one's head. His "eagle seal" would
 >wipe out the first half of the message, albeit the first few
 >lines are no doubt military teletype addresses and not the
 >verbal message content.

I think the demo images indicate this need not be the case, it's
the same mock up sheet used throughout the demo images and that
demo seal wouldn't necessarily overlap text, we don't after all
know how many lines of text were on that upper half of the
sheet. On reflection, after viewing the Bettmann image where the
whole sheet can be seen and which I only obtained long after the
seal demo sheet experiment was completed, I would now say the
sheet I mocked up is actually shorter than that in Ramey's hand.

 >I bring up these examples because here at least we can deal with
 >_quantitative_ measurements about which there can be no real
 >doubt, and subject to easy independent calculation, just take a
 >ruler on your computer screen and all you have to know is a
 >little trigonometry. And it shows that his interpretations when
 >quantitatively checked are way off the mark, so much so that he
 >is misinterpreting lines of horizontal text as a graphic image
 >at a skewed angle.

And if you do place a ruler on the screen you'll get some idea
just how curved these surfaces are, try putting your ruler under
a line of text!.

If you dispute the seal how do you explain the visibility of the
large heading also made visible in the top right of the message
paper and revealed by the self same mechanism I believe, as the
seal?. I'm not the only researcher to attest to this feature.

Brad, I did what I believe was the scientific thing to do here,
I took my theory, produced a real world model from it and
attempted to reproduce with that model the observed effects
within the image. Considering sizes etc had to be largely
assumed I believe the resultant images from that simple
experiment provide positive support for the theory they were
based on. Try it yourself, all you need is a piece of paper, a
marker pen and a reasonable copy of the Ramey Message pic so you
can simulate (roughly) the way the message paper is curved and
folded, then hold it at arms length in the same orientation as
in the Ramey image, use one eye to simulate the camera lens.


 >If when he can be checked quantitatively he
 >is so far off how can we then trust him on something that is so
 >subjective and non-quantitative as imagining "symbols" and
 >"Egyptian hieroglyphics" in amorphous images at the limits of
 >resolution of the photos of the Roswell debris?

Hell's bell's _don't_ just trust me!... that's the last thing I
want. I report what _I_ see, go and look at these things for
yourselves and then you can reach your own conclusions for or
against. What I _do_ want people to do is to take a bit of time
to look and then think hard about the origin of the anomalies,
many of which are_not_ at the limits of image resolution.

Neil.






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              Re: Recognise This Triangular Stealth Aircraft? -

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 17:44:56 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 09:10:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Recognise This Triangular Stealth Aircraft? -


 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Recognise This Triangular Stealth Aircraft?
 >Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 22:30:44 -0500

 >>From: Holger Isenberg <H.Isenberg@ping.de>
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 20:34:12 +0200 (MEST)
 >>Subject: Recognise This Triangular Stealth Aircraft?

 >>Can anyone identify what aircraft this is?

 >>http://mars.gh.wh.uni-dortmund.de/ufo/23triangle.jpg

 >>I'm posting on this List, as it looks like a small model of the
 >>TR-3B:

 >>It is from a real newspaper article, taken from the German movie
 >>'23' and dates from the 1980s.


 >Holger, howcome the aircraft casts a shadow and none of the
 >figures around it do?

 >Looks like one of those Photoshop moments to me.


Hi Dennis,

Notice also the elongated look to the people standing around the
craft. Photoshop or an equivalant is my guess.

Best,

Don Ledger








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                 Investigators Stumped By Cattle Mutilations

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 09:43:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 09:43:27 -0400
Subject: Investigators Stumped By Cattle Mutilations




From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

Source: Las Vegas Sun

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nevada/2001/aug/07/080710251.html

August 07, 2001

Investigators Stumped By Cattle Mutilations

CONRAD, Mont. (AP) - Investigators in northcentral Montana are
baffled by a string of cattle mutilations since mid-June,
prompting one agency to seek help from a Las Vegas group that
studies unconventional theories, including UFOs.

Ranchers in Dupuyer and Fort Shaw have reported four cattle
deaths in which portions of the animals' faces were cut or
peeled off and eyeballs and genitals were removed.

The animals had not been shot, and investigators say whoever is
responsible left few clues behind.

The killings are similar to a string of cattle deaths in the
1970s in the same general area, in which more than 60 cattle in
five counties were found mutilated. Those cases remain unsolved,
and prompted speculation at the time from some that the deaths
were the work of aliens or satanic cults.

Dan Campbell, a deputy with the Pondera County Sheriff's
Department, believes humans are responsible, but their motives
remain unclear.

"I don't believe in little green men," he said. "I think 500
people have asked me, 'Well, what's doing it?' If I knew, I
would get it in the paper."

Colm Kelleher, deputy administrator of the National Institute
for Discovery Science in Las Vegas, confirmed Tuesday that the
sheriff's office contacted the institute for help.

"They'd heard about some of our previous research from a retired
deputy sheriff in that area," he said.

The group describes itself as a research organization that
studies a variety of unconventional scientific theories.

NIDS investigated the 1970s cattle mutilations in Montana, and
Kelleher said its research found a correlation between the
animal killings and UFO sightings around Malmstrom Air Force
Base.

"Just because we found a statistical linkage between UFO
sightings and animal mutilation, we are not drawing a direct
link," he said. "We are completely
undecided as to the perpetrators of these mutilations."

---

On the Web:

National Institute for Discovery Science:
www.nidsci.org

--






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                          Filer's Files #32 - 2001

From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 02:01:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 09:47:13 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #32 - 2001


Filer's Files #32 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
August 7, 2001, Majorstar@aol.com.
Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com,

Filer's Files and website is looking for sponsors. The website,
thanks to the hard work of Webmaster Chuck Warren reaches a half
million people a month and appears on a hundred other web sites
reaching over an estimated million people.

MAN'S SEARCH TO KNOW HIS WORLD AND UNIVERSE: UFO reports come in
from New York, New Jersey, Georgia, Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky,
Michigan, Wisconsin, Columbia, New Zealand and Scotland.

NEW YORK UFO SIGHTING RELATED TO CARTERET

PATCHOGUE, LONG ISLAND -- On July 14, 2001, at 11:21 PM,
multiple reports were received from Long Island. In Patchogue,
Long Island witnesses were traveling east on Route 27 and saw a
brightly looking disc pass in front of their car on July 15.
There were a total of four reports just minutes before the
Carteret sighting at 12:15 AM. There are indications that
multiple UFOs were present along the Long Island, New York to
New Jersey corridor. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director NUFORC
www.ufocenter.com

NEW JERSEY LIGHTS

CARTERET -- Investigation of the twenty slow moving lights
observed by hundreds on July 15, 2001, continue. Other witnesses
now report sighting a fast moving UFO in the Newark Airport
area. "The video tape appears to show a UFO in the lower portion
of the video closest to the videographer in East Carteret.

SOUTH PLAINFIELD - Another report has been received from the
area 15 miles west of Carteret earlier in the evening.

LINDA MOULTON HOWE called to ask about the Carteret sighting and
told me she has just returned from Laos. She had been filming a
series for the Discovery Channel television about the new Asian
Enigma in search of the "wild men" of Laos. These wild men are
similar or may the same as Sasquatch or Big Foot. We discussed
the fact that when there are reports of UFO landings, they are
often followed by Sasquatch reports.

VIRGINIA MENTAL PATIENT

ROANOKE - The witness of a UFO who was placed in a Sanitarium
has been released. Several organizations attempted to help the
Caltech Ph.D. and we hope our efforts were instrumental in
having him released. Thanks to all our friends who attempted to
help.

GEORGIA WHITE PYRAMID

LAGRANGE -- MUFONGA's former State Director, John Thompson
received a recent report of a 'white pyramid' hovering in the
sky for about 8 seconds, around 4:00 PM on July 27, 2001. A
motorist on Highway 219 just south of the Chattahoochee River
observed it to the west at about a 45-60 degree angle,
estimating it was a mile away. Upon reaching the next clearing,
it was gone. The object was much larger than an airliner, and
two sides of the pyramid were seen. There was scattered cloud
cover. The LaGrange Airport advised that there were no reported
blimps or balloons in the area, and none of the pilots had
reported anything unusual. Thanks to John Thompson and Tom
Sheets MUFONGA SD.

OHIO, INDIANA GREEN FIREBALL

OHIO INDIANA BORDER -- Peter Davenport the Director of NUFORC
reports that on Tuesday night, July 31st, at 2120 hours. (PDT),
He received a report from a long haul trucker, traveling
westbound through Ohio, and located 64 miles east of the Ohio
border. He reported witnessing a very dramatic blue-green
"fireball," which was streaking from his left to right,
approximately 25-30 degrees above the horizontal plane in the
western sky ahead of him. He telephoned two minutes after the
event.

BLANCHESTER, OHIO -- On July 31, 2001, at 11:50 PM an object was
moving so fast that the witness had a hard time following it.
Then it just stopped, without slowing down. The witness said,
"As I turned onto my road, it was hovering over our house. I was
trying to get home as quick as possible so my family could see
it. I got to my driveway and it shot across the sky again, as
silent as can be." There was NO sound coming from this object.
It just sat in the sky, for about 4 minutes. It didn't bob up
and down or move in the slightest bit. I ran inside to get my
video camera (but the battery was dead), I went back outside and
it was still there, over the field. Then it was gone in an
instant. I have never seen ANYTHING go so fast and then come to
a dead stop. It was amazing! Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC
www.ufocenter.com.

INDIANA DAYLIGHT UFO

MILAN � Outstanding Researcher Kenny Young writes he received an
email from the gentleman claiming that an object was again
visible last night after 2:00 AM. At any rate, the weather
around here is hot and hazy with a gloomy overcast. I would be
hard to imagine an atmospheric or celestial issue like an
incoming bolide/meteor/fireball that could be seen in daylight
through this haze. I had just talked with one of the witnesses
by telephone regarding two suspected UFO sightings near Milan at
2:45 a.m. on July 31 and again on August 1st at 3:35 a.m. She
sounded sober and alert. She said that what they had seen the
last two evenings was 'very unusual' and that she had "never
seen anything like this before." She described distant
'star-like lights' in a fixed triangular formation. This was not
airplanes." I inquired how she could ascertain these were not
airplanes (almost to the point of asking a leading question by
getting her to describe any particular glow or color) and sh! e
said: "By the way it looked" and again went on to describe the
three distant 'star-like lights' in a fixed triangular
formation.

I am not satisfied that this is 'something different' without
any outstanding characteristic such as glow, pulse or halo. Just
three star-like lights that could easily be high-flying jets for
purposeful or purely coincidental reason were flying about the
same speed and from the position of the observer may have been
in a convenient triangular formation. Perhaps even high-flying
spy satellites? Thanks to KENNY YOUNG ufo@FUSE.NET.

MICHIGAN GREEN FIREBALL

OSCEOLA -- I was traveling west from Midland towards Luddington
at around 12:20 AM this morning on August 1, 2001, and I saw
what I thought to be a shooting star tracking from South to
North. I caught it early on and couldn't make my mind up what it
was. I was almost suggesting to myself that it could be a
satellite due to the way it wasn't getting brighter, when it did
just that. Slowly it started to fizzle like a fireworks, then it
grew in size getting brighter all the time and seemingly
sparking, then I saw a puff of green and then it all turned a
really bright burning green. I past a few trees but could still
make it out it was so bright, then I came out on the other side
(I was looking north now) and the fire stopped and just this red
glow continued for a second, then it was gone. I suspect there
is a hole in the ground a few miles north from here. The object
didn't break up.

Peter Davenport reports NUFORC has received a number of very
interesting reports from Ohio, Michigan, and Wisconsin, and
other states, which suggest to us that the event may not have
been a typical meteoric event. One young woman in Ohio reports
that she was witness to a blue-green fireball, which suddenly
stopped and hovered for an estimate 5 minutes. It then "shot
off," moving over the horizon very quickly. Thanks to NUFORC

KENTUCKY TV VIDEOS UFO

LEXINGTON � Kenny Young reports a television news crew suspects
that they have captured a strange aerial object on videotape.
WTVQ-TV News Channel 36, an ABC affiliate in Lexington, reported
on their 11:00 p.m. newscast that one of their videographers
documented the suspected oddity on Thursday, August 2, 2001,
over the city. Cincinnati resident Chris Heiert caught the story
as it was broadcast from the Lexington television station and
quickly notified me of the report. Within minutes of receiving
the information I had placed a call to the news station and was
lucky to speak with the videographer at 11:20 p.m. while the
news program was still in live production. The videographer,
informed that he had been interviewing someone at a car wash on
Richmond Road for a news segment scheduled for Friday's
newscast. The person being interviewed at around 5:30 p.m. first
spotted the object and gestured for the news crew to take
notice.

"I looked in that direction and this thing was visibly seen with
the naked eye," the videographer said, "so I swung my camera
around to get a shot of it and shot it for a minute." The object
seemed to hover in place and was a large circular object with
dome-shaped center roughly the size of a car or van. "This is
where it gets weird," he said. "Coming out from the dome are
little legs that curve down like triangles or something, and it
rotates." He described the object as having no smoke and no
lights. Thanks to Kenny Young ufo@FUSE.NET .

WISCONSIN LIGHTS

DUNDEE - CORRECTION -- The Flying Triangle sighting report
carried in July 21, Filer's Files #30, took place on July 15,
2000, rather than 2001 at Benson's Hideaway. A new sighting took
place on July 21, 2001, about 9:40 PM when a group from Benson's
Hideaway Restaurant located on Long Lake again saw UFOs. Both
sightings were observed by a multiple group of UFO buffs. A
light then came from the south end of the lake next to Dundee
Mountain. It was about the size of a quarter held at arm's
length. It looked like it was lower than Dundee Mountain and
just a little higher than the trees. The light was a golden
color and had golden lights shooting out from the edges. As it
moved along the Eastern Shore of the lake it made little jumps
almost straight up in the air and then continued on its original
path. The light continued to the north end of the lake where we
were, at this point someone yelled, there's another one. It came
north along the western edge of the lake and it too, s! hot up
almost straight in the air a couple of times. This one did
something different though. It blew up to a white light, which
was much bigger, than the golden light at least four times. It
then dropped two lights like the sparkles that drop from
sparklers. It moved directly across from us, while the first
light it had moved northwest and disappeared.

Bonnie Meyer reports, "I believe that it left the atmosphere so
fast that it only looked as if the light went out." A third
golden light came from the same area and was coming towards us
slowly. When it got about half way down the lake the second one
started to move off and then they stayed about the same distance
apart and moved off. A few minutes latter another light
appeared. It came almost the length of the lake and was either
much smaller or it was much higher because it was smaller. As it
got closer to us it turned west and settled almost stationary in
the southwest. It stayed there for a long time. It seemed to
become three separate lights one bluish green, one orange red
and the other white. They seemed to be playing tag, running
circles around each other and zigzagging with each other. Then
there was a slight popping sound and two lights dropped from the
underside of the center light. One of the lights took off in a
northwest direction and was out of sight within a! minute or
two. The greenish blue light stayed in the area and was still
there when I left at about 12:30 A.M. When I talked to people
the next day they said the light was still there at 2:00 A.M.
Thanks to Bonnie Meyer of Lightside www.thelightside.org and Jim
Aho.

COLOMBIA LIGHTS

PRADERA -- El Pais News reports appearance of a strange luminous
object, which suddenly became visible in the skies over Pradera
and disrupted the tranquillity enjoyed by the residents.
Precisely at 8:15 p.m. all eyes began looking automatically
toward the heavens. There, a yellow and feeble light descended
rapidly, as if seeking shelter in the mountainside's dense
vegetation. Phanor Pealoza says, "the fireball had a strange
rotating movement, it took at least 15 seconds to cross the sky
and vanish." Many residents of the Comuneros, La Lorena and
Berlin neighborhoods witnessed the luminous phenomenon, which
was allegedly responsible for two power outages five and ten
minutes after the incident took place. Lieutenant Rodolfo
Paredes of the Pradera Fire Brigade, who also saw the lights,
believes that "it was all caused by a lit flare that someone
fired" The firefighter's argument is based on the fact that the
light had a permanent flame as it rose and later descended,
somethin! g that happens with so called gunpowder rockets.
Thanks to the El Pais News

NEW ZEALAND POLTERGEISTS AND UFOs

Karen L. wrote to the Skywatch International stating, "I had a
UFO encounter back in 1978, where I was actually missing for two
days. Its a long story but the point here is that upon return
there started a three month period of "extreme" supernatural
activity in the apartment where I was living. There were three
other people living there and we all had to put up with items
flying through the house, things suddenly lifting off and
levitating on the dinner table as we were eating meals, people
appearing and walking through walls. The list goes on and on and
this happened everyday, day in day out. I found it all extremely
interesting while my friends found it absolutely terrifying.
Needless to say that after three months they couldn't take it
anymore and had to move out. I decided to move back to New
Zealand where the entire thing started again in my next
residence. We got professional help in and without telling them
the details the moment the walked into the house they ca! me
straight for me saying it was all centered around me (yep tell
me about it). They couldn't help unfortunately so again I moved
and this time it stopped. It's now over 20 years later and
things still go 'bump' around me ;)... I'm used to it now. Karen

Editor's Note: I have investigated several cases that also
involve Poltergeist activity. Seldom will a witness mention
these occurrences and it usually takes getting to know the
witnesses quite well. Unless people are specifically asked, they
are unlikely to volunteer this information. My experience has
been the wilder and more unbelievable stories are likely to be
the most real. Those who investigate cases by visiting with the
witnesses have a wonderful opportunity to obtain the entire
story. Thanks to Karen L. and Skywatch International.

SCOTLAND STARGAZER CLAIMS TO HAVE PROOF OF UFOs EXISTENCE

DUNDEE -- The Courier News reports, "The best photographs of a
UFO ever taken" have been snapped by a Leven man from outside
his home,� he claims. Andrew Wilson (58) believes he saw the UFO
when he was looking out of his living-room window on August 3,
2001. Mr Wilson claims it was moving across the sky, "It was a
small thing and it was traveling fast but there was no sound
from it." A member of the RSPB and a keen bird watcher, Mr
Wilson owns a book on astronomy and often watches the night sky,
"I like the stars, they�re beautiful," he added. It was,
perhaps, this hobby that allowed him to witness another UFO in
1971, "It was right above me. It had a red dome on it, and a
flashing light."  Mr. Wilson has two witnesses who also saw the
latest object. Firm in his belief that what he saw was an UFO,
Mr. Wilson has handed the matter over to the authorities. Thanks
to Gerry@Farshores - www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/ and Courier
News, August 6, 2001.

ROSWELL CRASH RESEARCH FINDINGS

Bond Johnson writes, �After more than three years of eye
straining research of comparing the computer enhanced and
carefully dissected Ramey Office Photos (ROP) with the
blueprints of RAWIN/MOGUL and to other weather devices circa
1947 -- and with extensive consultation of UFO experts from
Klass to Rudiak to Friedman �- The Roswell Photo Interpretation
Team (RPIT) has concluded that there is NOTHING to be seen in
the ROP that can be matched to ANYTHING expected to be found in
the crash of a RAWIN/MOGUL or any other known "weather device."
Further, in spite of frequent and widespread invitations for
such, no one -- from dedicated skeptic to devout believer -- has
SUGGESTED that ANY piece of wreckage to be seen in the ROP has
any specific terrestrial genesis.

Also, after more than a half century the US government has
produced NO documented evidence as to the etiology of the
Roswell crash -- even when RPIT and others requested such
documents under FOIA. Finally, after its extensive research --
including discussions by three team members w Prof. Charles
Moore -- RPIT has concluded that there is NO evidence that ANY
known RAWIN/MOGUL launch could account for the strange and well
documented reports connected with the Roswell crash of 1947.
Thanks to Colonel James Bond Johnson RPIT Project Director.

  MARS: NEUROSCIENTIST FINDS LIFE ON MARS IN DECADES-OLD DATA

SAN DIEGO, July 29, 2001 -University of Southern California
announced Experiments done more than two decades ago on Martian
soil collected by the Viking Landers 1 and 2 provided evidence
that life might exist on Mars, says Joseph Miller, Ph.D.,
associate professor in the Department of Cell and Neurobiology
at the Keck School of Medicine of the University of Southern
California. Miller recently did a re-analysis of data collected
by the landers, and found that something in the collected soil
was apparently metabolizing nutrients-and doing so with a
distinct biological rhythm that, he says, can only be found in a
living cell. Miller presented his findings at an astrobiology
symposium held during the International Society for Optical
Engineering.

In August and September of 1975, the Viking spacecraft were
launched from Cape Canaveral. After traveling for nearly a year,
each was deployed to the planet's surface. Once there, they
performed a series of experiments-including one in which a
robotic arm scooped up samples of soil and deposited them in
petri dishes, along with a drop of a nutrient solution that had
been labeled with radioactive carbon. The idea, explains Miller,
was that if there were any living organisms in the sample, they
would take up the carbon-labeled nutrients and process them,
eventually releasing the radioactive carbon in a gas form. A
radiation detector was set up near the covered dish, connected
to it by a tube through which any released gases would travel.
There was definite evidence of a gas release. It seemed Levin
and Straat had indeed found life on Mars-but other scientists
felt the release might be better explained as the result of
chemical reactions with highly reactive compounds like
uperoxides and peroxides. Unable to prove that the gas was
definitely being released by living organisms, the NASA
scientists let the matter drop.

Based on new discoveries Miller started studying the old data
and after reviewing just 30 percent of the data, Miller was able
to find something remarkable-something, he says, that went
unremarked-upon in the original papers. "The signal itself not
only had a circadian rhythm," declares Miller, "but it had a
precise circadian rhythm of 24.66 hours-which is particularly
significant, because it's the length of a Martian day." The
fluctuations in gas emissions seem to be entrained to a 2
degrees C fluctuation inside the lander, which in turn reflected
not-quite-total shielding from the 50 degrees C. fluctuation in
temperature that occurs daily on the surface of Mars.
Temperature-entrained circadian rhythms, even to a mere 2-degree
C fluctuation, have been observed repeatedly on earth. As for
the original concerns of the dubious chemists, who thought the
same sort of signal could simply be coming from highly reactive,
non-organic compounds in the soil, Miller says such a scenari! o
would be almost impossible to imagine. The circadian rhythms
from the Martian soil persisted for nine straight weeks."

"There is no reason for a purely chemical reaction to be so
strongly synchronized to such a small temperature fluctuation,"
he adds. "We think that in conjunction with the strong
indications from Mars Observer images that show water flowed on
the surface in the recent past. I think back in 1976, the Viking
researchers had an excellent reason to believe they'd discovered
life; I'd say it was a good 75 percent certain. Now, with this
discovery, I'd say it's over 90 percent."
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2001-07/uosc-unf072701.ph
p

UFOs POLITICS GOD AND SCIENCE

Dr. Robert Trundle has written the new book "UFOs: POLITICS, GOD
AND SCIENCE" (2001, European Press). With commentaries by
Harvard's John E. Mack, MD. as well as NASA's Dr. Richard Haines
and US Air Force Intelligence Maj. George Filer (Ret.), this
book makes a novel defense of alien UFO visitation. After
revealing why current science cannot be used to exclude the
visitation and listing the testimonies of well regarded
witnesses, several perplexing questions are raised: Has the
academic community had a role in obstructing truth about the
phenomenon of UFOs? Were military denials of alien UFOs ordered
by one of the most admired US Presidents who, with no one
noticing, virtually admitted of the cover-up? Might a cover-up
be actually justified? Do bizarre reports, which rival X-Files,
have a basis in science?

Having received his Ph.D. at the University of Colorado at
Boulder, Robert Trundle is a member of the New York Academy of
Sciences and Scientific Research Society of Sigma Xi. He has
written over forty professional articles and numerous books.
This new UFO book can be ordered by e-mail from the distributor
Casalini http://www.casalini.it), The Book Place
(http://www.thebookplace.com), or directly from the European
Press. (e-p-a-p.com) for approximately $27.00. More information
on the book is also listed on the web site "amazon.co.uk."

UFO / ALIEN PRODUCTS GALORE! - Help support UFO research you can
read anytime you want! The Black Vault, a website devoted to
uncovering the truth with the UFO cover-up, is entering it's
fifth year in existence. Support is needed, and when you shop in
this store, you get the satisfaction of quality products, with
the knowledge that you have help support one of the largest
ventures of it's kind to preserve, house and provide free to the
public, over 82,000 pages of government documents. From a UFO
CD-ROM with over 5,000 documents, to alien driver's licenses,
this store has it all! Come help our venture, while supporting
UFO research! http://www.blackvaultstore.com Call us at toll
free, (866) 828-2858 or (818) 886-0131.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL for $30 per year by
contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended you for
membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2001 by George A.
Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the
files on their Web Sites provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue
that the item appeared. These reports and comments are not
necessarily the official MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to
keep your name, address, or story confidential. Caution, most of
these are initial reports and require further investigation.












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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Aug > Aug 8

                Re: Are you Ready For The Revolution? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 02:14:43 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 09:50:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Are you Ready For The Revolution? - Hatch


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 07:29:29 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Are you Ready For The Revolution?
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 16:57:11 -0400
 >>Subject: Are you Ready For The Revolution?
 >>To: www.whitehouse.gov@altavista.com

 ><snip>

 >>"Are you ready for the revolution?"

 >>Lara Johnstone, a California woman who began a Hunger Strike
 >>for Disclosure on July 28th.

 >What? Endanger her life in support of the fantasies of the likes
 >of Clifford Stone?

 >Sad, sad, very sad. And pathetic. If anybody needs evidence that
 >people can actually be harmed by all of this paranoid nonsense,
 >it is Lara Johnstone.

 >Bob Young

= = =

Hello Bob, all:

Somebody else wrote me privately, and indicated that they had
bought the CD set from the Disclosure Project (Greer's project I
presume.)

This person noted that my website was listed somewhere in a
links list within that product; and wanted to know why I didn't
link back to the D.P. on my links page!

I replied that I usually only link to the oldest and most
respected journals and groups (etc. etc.) and that Greer and
company had certain credibility problems, without going into any
detail.

Rather than waste an hour on a useless tirade, I recommended the
Archives link at the bottom of this page, suggesting use of the
handy search function. I suggested that the person simply use
the word "Greer" and see what pops up.

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

I further suggested signing onto this (UpDates) List where one
can not only join the discussion, but recommend links to Greer's
D.P. to anyone else with web pages up.

I haven't heard anything back yet.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch










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   Aug > Aug 8

              Re: Are you Ready For The Revolution? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 06:19:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 09:53:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Are you Ready For The Revolution? - Lehmberg


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 07:29:29 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Are you Ready For The Revolution?
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 16:57:11 -0400
 >>Subject: Are you Ready For The Revolution?
 >>To: www.whitehouse.gov@altavista.com

 ><snip>

 >>"Are you ready for the revolution?"

Yes. Quite!

 >>Lara Johnstone, a California woman who began a Hunger Strike
 >>for Disclosure on July 28th.

 >What? Endanger her life in support of the fantasies of the likes
 >of Clifford Stone?

Great suffering baragrugous Zot, Bobbo old sod! I'm amazed at
how you can so completely and so blithely miss the point in
every post you key! Why not just say she's doing this based on
one, suspected, hot tub encounter with Dr. Boylan! That's the
same _kind_ of straw man that you're trotting out here. You're
ninety degrees to the broad side of a barn, sir, for the usual
par!

Forget Stone! "Dubya" Bush, our arguable President, looked her
in the face and lied to her, in her estimation, and she's
_pissed_ about it, just like _you_ should be. Man, if I didn't
absolutely _know_ that my German wife would have me committed to
an institution, I would _join_ with her in her hunger strike,
and otherwise try to add a little fuel to her fire!

 >Sad, sad, very sad. And pathetic.

...Looking in a psychological mirror perhaps? Sad and pathetic
is an unerring instinct to miss the point! Conversely, I
celebrate _her_, and wish her well! She has the guts to hold to
account someone that would hold her to account, she wants the
respect of a proper accounting, and she wants the truth of that
accounting, though the heavens fall! What's _not_ to celebrate!
I hope she lights the fuse!

 >If anybody needs evidence that
 >people can actually be harmed by all of this paranoid nonsense,
 >it is Lara Johnstone.

I remain in astonishment how harmed _you_ are by your too easy "show me"
complacency regarding an inexplicable that you ignore only because it won't
dance to your shallowly over-centric tune.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.









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   Aug > Aug 8

                          New At Magonia - 08-08-01

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 13:03:48 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 09:55:21 -0400
Subject: New At Magonia - 08-08-01


Some new articles on the Magonia website, listed at:

http//www.magonia.demon.co.uk/arc/00/00index.html

Levelland, the Last Redoubt: Peter Rogerson reviews the numerous
accounts of the Levelland incidents, and finds them rather
unsatisfactory.

Limners of Faerie: classic Magonian literary criticism from
David Sivier, guaranteed to enrage English majors.

The Media and the Paranormal: yes there is media bias, but it's
against the sceptics, says Dr Christopher French.

Comments welcome...


John Rimmer

Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk









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                       Rush Takes Aim At UFO Politics

From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
Date: 8 Aug 2001 12:13:25 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 15:38:36 -0400
Subject: Rush Takes Aim At UFO Politics


Source: Florida Today

http://www.floridatoday.com/news/columnists/cox/080801cox.htm


Aug. 8, 2001

Rush Takes Aim At UFO Politics

By Billy Cox
A Florida Today column

Judging from the brevity of the exchange, which was recorded by
CNN on July 28, 2000, you can almost hear George W. Bush's
eyeballs clicking against the socket ceilings.

Addressing the media horde as the Republican Convention in
Philadelphia winds down, this one guy, Charles Huffer, manages
to squeeze a response from the Texas governor. What the guv
doesn't know is, Huffer's a state regional director for the
Mutual UFO Network in Arkansas.

Huffer: "Half the public believes that (unidentified flying
objects) are real. Would you finally tell us what the hell is
going on (if elected president)?"

W.: "Sure I will."

Huffer (gesturing to running mate Dick Cheney): "This man knows.
He was secretary of defense."

W.: "And a good one."

A few minutes later, off camera, Huffer catches one more Bush
blurb on his audiocassette: "It'll be the first thing he
(Cheney) will do. He'll get right on it."

Yeah, sure, whatever. The only reason for presenting this
otherwise inconsequential snippet from the margins is that
recently, $120 million gasbag Rush Limbaugh decided that no
attack on the Bush clan - not even those related to UFOs -
should get a free pass. Limbaugh drew a bead on Daniel Sheehan,
chief counsel for the Disclosure Project, a group of former
government, military and corporate types who gathered in
Washington, D.C., on May 9 to lobby Congress for open hearings
on the UFO phenomenon.

Sheehan and Disclosure Project director Steven Greer argued that
the recovery and exploitation of crashed UFOs has led to the
development of technologies that can harness free energy, enough
to end petroleum's hammerlock on the world economy.

But they also contended the innovations were buried deep inside
black budget operations to keep from destabilizing financial
institutions.

Media coverage of the witness testimony was scant and yawning.
Three months after the press conference, letter-writing
campaigns haven't generated many blips on political radar
screens. Senate heavies like Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) brush off
constituents with form-letter replies referring all queries to
the long-dead Project Blue Book archives. Lesser-known rubber
stamps like Sen. James Imhofe (R-Okla.), who support pouring
billions of dollars into National Missile Defense, write that
"it would be irresponsible to spend taxpayer money on hearings
and legislation related to such phenomena."

So, obviously, if you're just another brick in the wall, the
smart thing to do is let this Disclosure Project thing die a
slow, natural death. But then, along comes Limbaugh - you know,
the guy with talent on loan from God? With half his brain tied
behind his back? On the cutting edge of societal revolution?
Limbaugh makes an issue of Sheehan's charge that President-elect
Carter's attempts to honor a campaign pledge to declassify UFOs
were stymied by then-CIA director George Bush in 1976.

"So let me get this straight," Limbaugh says. "The Bushes are at
the heart of the vast right-wing conspiracy to keep the oil
companies rich by hiding extraterrestrial solar panels or
super-warm sweaters or whatever it is they showed Jimmy Carter."

Limbaugh's bottom line: UFOs are just another "liberals from
Planet X" Bush-bashing platform. "You may be surprised to hear
me say that Mr. Sheehan is half right," Limbaugh says. "There is
alien life - but we are not hiding it. We see Dick Gephart plain
as day!"

That's a real seam-splitter, dude.

Too bad the godfather of Republican conservatism, Barry
Goldwater - Mr. Extremism In Defense of Liberty Is No Vice -
isn't around to untie the other half of Limbaugh's brain.
Goldwater aired his frustrations to no less than Larry King
regarding his inability to access top-secret UFO data when he
was chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee.

"This thing has gotten so highly classified... that it is just
impossible to get anything on it," Goldwater wrote to one
constituent. To another, he added: "I have no idea of who
controls the flow of 'need to know', because frankly, I was told
in such an emphatic way that it was none of my business that
I've never tried to make it my business since."

Glib campaign sound bites to the contrary, the status quo is
safely entrenched. Limbaugh attacking UFO declassification as a
"liberal agenda" is like a hippo break-dancing in Spandex. He
draws major-league attention to what his fellow ideologues would
just as soon leave under a rock, and the guy winds up
looking like a dork.


Billy Cox's column runs every Wednesday. He can be reached at
242-3774, or Florida Today, P.O. Box 419000, Melbourne, FL
32941-9000.


"Are you ready for the revolution?"

                        --Lara Johnstone, a California woman who
                          began a Hunger Strike for Disclosure
                          on July 28th.







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   Aug > Aug 8

                        Re: Voyager Newsletter No. 18

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 06:47:19 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 15:57:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Voyager Newsletter No. 18


 >Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 16:38:50 +0100
 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Voyager Newsletter No. 18 - Sparks

 >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 13:31:00 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Voyager Newsletter No. 18
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>Worst of all, Easton has a fundamental contradiction he is
 >>hiding: He cannot have his hypothetical balloon quickly enough
 >>reinflated for takeoff for a sighting lasting just a few minutes
 >>unless it was already almost bouyant enough to be airborne. If
 >>it was so bouyant it would have virtually no weight to impress
 >>into the ground.

As I have said, Late spring in New Mexico is no time to be
flying Balloons, (I can personally attest that flying Four
Engine Douglas products at low level isn't much fun in those
conditions either.)

One word - 'wind'. Big wind, 25-30 knot steady, 50kt. gusts, not
unsual. Try changing a 300 lb. tire in those conditions, when
your 95,000 lb. Airplane wants to weathervane into the wind that
has just sprung up.

 >I was under the premise that anyone flying anything around the
 >skies, needed to have some kind of notification system with the
 >authorities?

 >Why doesn't James give us the Balloon club they belonged to?

Because no balloonist in their right mind would be out there in
the spring. Late fall, yes, Alberqurque Balloon festival - late
October, yes.

 >And have the local aviation officials given any data to suppose
 >that there were balloons flying around the skies at the time of
 >the incident?

Unfortunately, probably not, being uncontrolled airspace, at
least close to the ground, you don't have to notify anyone.

 >Where is the data to propose that such a balloon was airborne at
 >the time?

Only in the fevered imaginings of a Pelican-fever'd mind.

 >And how many people have validated such balloon sightings from
 >that time frame ( Public Citizens ).

To give an example of how windy springs are in that part of the
country, does anyone remember the recent Los Alamos fire?
And the wind?

I think that someone would have noted some idiots out flying in
a balloon over Siccoro NM. going 50mph in the direction say of
Amarillo TX., landing would be out of the question, however.

 >And do we really think that these two balloonists would be able
 >to keep such an incident under their hats for so long. I am sure
 >if the events were as James prescribes, surely these guys would
 >have told such an event to their friends, families at some
 >stage and we do know how stories get filtered out.


I've known a few balloonists in my time and none of them are
sworn to secrecy about their exploits. The experience would have
been the ride of their lives or more likely, their getting
nearly killed.

GT McCoy









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               Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 8 Aug 2001 09:04:39 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 03:27:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Hamilton


 >Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 20:48:49 -0300
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 21:27:31 -0700

 >>>From: Bob Young Y<oungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:56:55 EDT
 >>>Subject: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>A letter from this past Sunday's Star Ledger (NJ) may shed some
 >>>real light on the July 14-15 mystery lights:

 >>Or no light at all, whatever it was it was not Aircraft, at
 >>least conventional aircraft -yes I am willing to say there
 >>may be a prosaic reason!

 >>>-----

 >>>Logical Explanation

 >>>When I heard about the mysterious lights in Carteret, the first
 >>>thing I did was call my husband because he works at a data
 >>>center there. I figured maybe he would have a clue as to what
 >>>the mystery was about.

 >>>Maybe he was the only one with a grip on reality. According to
 >>>my husband, the lights were nothing more than a group of planes
 >>>approaching the airport (Newark Airport, one on the 3 big in NYC
 >>>area - WTH) slowly and quietly. He said the planes flew by while
 >>>he was smoking a cigarette outside the building. He too was
 >>>intrigued by the mysterious lights when he first saw them, but
 >>>when they flew over the data center it became clear the lights
 >>>were airplanes.

 >>A large formation in one of the busiest chunks of airspace at
 >>night - no way at all. The FAA would be on the perps. Like flies
 >>on a fresh Cowpie. Plus there are too many witness reports that
 >>state otherwise, including the FAA. Bob have you ever been
 >>there? Yeesh. Flying formation even military (it isn't done much
 >>anymore) is dicey at best. Yes, I have flown formation in an
 >>airshow and when I was an Airtanker pilot (you have to - to see
 >>the leadplane) in the smoke and flame. Just some idiots tooling
 >>around at night? Come on. I personally know a C-54 Tanker Crew
 >>that was lost for a mere "Photo Op". Also, Bob,as I recall,
 >>Newark didn't have any record of such flights.

 >>This reminds me of the "Ultralight" theory with the Hudson
 >>valley sightings. Given the state of ultralights, both
 >>structurally and mechanically (mostly powered by high-strung,
 >>and very unreliable two-stroke go-cart/snowmobile engines). Back
 >>in the Eighties, night - let alone formation flying - would have
 >>been very stupid, idiotic, Wile E. Coyote (Acme - a name you can
 >>trust) off-the-mesa dumb.

 >>I get damn' tired of people who claim pilots are out doing
 >>dangerous things, or they are people don't know what they are
 >>talking about. As in the orthodox priest, engineer, pilot who
 >>witnessed the flares - see Flier's files, current issue. But of
 >>course he is a religious fanatic and despite his engineering
 >>(scientific) background and pilot training, his observation to
 >>some is obviously flawed. Along with the video camera, cops, an
 >>audience of 100's.

 >>>Human imagination is quite amusing. Perhaps some people need
 >>>drama in their lives.Maybe some lives are just so boring that
 >>>people need to fabricate stories about UFO's. The evidence is
 >>>clear. Let's be logical.

 >>I haven't had a boring life, and this argument isn't Logical.

 >>>Carol Giroux,
 >>>Edison, [NJ]

 >>>-----

 >>>I had earlier suggested that the lights may have been New Jersey
 >>>Army or Air National Guard aircraft dropping flares. This was a
 >>>Saturday night on a summer weekend. I think that it may be that
 >>>our old friends, "the Martians" or their colleagues, may be
 >>>flying some ultralights.

 >>See my reference to Ultralights above, also it is, ahem,
 >>'illegal' to fly Ultralights at night, in controlled airspace,
 >>over populated areas. Period. Although through the process of
 >>natural selection, Ultralights have gotten somewhat more
 >>reliable (like small four-strokes for engines) again, the
 >>Federalies would have their collective genitalia hanging on the
 >>flagpole of the local FAA office! None of what you are
 >>describing is a haw haw game, but serious. Also, why the hell is
 >>the military dropping flares over a heavily populated area?


 >Why would the military be dropping flaes in the biggest TRACON
 >in the country, in any event. It's at least 100 miles on a side.
 >Mucho illegal. Can you imagine the commercial heavies sucking
 >the little buggers in to their high by-pass fans. Any nonesense
 >about ultra-lites is unworthy of consideration. Flying in that
 >TRACON? Surely Bob can do better than this.


Don, you are correct. This reminds me of all the bruhaha over
flares regarding the Phoenix Lights. I think someone has got to
get a grip here and learn more about flares and flare activity.
Aerial flares over any residential area could be extremely
hazardous. Lets see now... ultra-lights are flying at night and
launching flares... hmmm, I would rather believe in flying
saucers and the tooth fairy.


Bill Hamilton








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              Aegean Airspace Challengers... From Outer Space?

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 03:37:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 03:37:13 -0400
Subject: Aegean Airspace Challengers... From Outer Space?




 From UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>


Source: ABCNEWS.com

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/turkey010808_ufo.html

Eyes to the Skies
Aegean Airspace Challengers... From Outer Space?

By John K. Cooley


A T H E N S, Aug. 8 -- Greek and Turkish air force pilots,
sharing contested Aegean airspace, are used to seeing a fighter
or two of their usually friendly adversary looping around them,
or diving to intercept their patrol or training flights.

But for two Turkish trainee pilots, the aerobatics were
different this time.

While on a routine training flight in a U.S.-made T-37 off the
Turkish Aegean coastal town of Candarli, they suddenly had
reason to call their home base control tower.

A bright object had approached their plane at high speed and
reportedly gyrated around them for about a half hour.

The Turkish newspaper Hurriyet quoted their call: "Object
approaching the wings. Now it's behind the plane... now it's in
front of us." They told their controller and the regional war
alert center of the Turkish army that the apparent Unidentified
Flying Object had an unusual shape that looked like a cross
between a cone and a disc.

A Widely Curious Incident

Turkish air force sources said they were investigating. So were
the neighboring Greeks.

The Turks were planning to report the encounter to international
bodies - especially the U.S. National Aeronautics and Space
Administration.










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                  Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 15:22:14 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 09:41:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sparks


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Date: 7 Aug 2001 06:47:57 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'

 >>Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:31:54 -0700 (PDT)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 16:34:00 -0700

 >><snip>

 >>What if the Roswell story falls, as I believe is in
 >>the process of happening?

 >It won't happen becaue of Pflock's book. Read some paragraphs
 >from it in the bookstore on Friday. Same old Mogul balloon
 >hypothesis (not a certainty at all). He critisizes testimony
 >that doesn't agree with his conclusions and supports testimony
 >he believes does.

Bill,

How is it that there is _any_ testimony in Pflock's book that
conflicts with his conclusions? Why does he let that stuff in
there?

 >Then why are the images of the debris in Ramey's office photos
 >not consistent with that of a Mogul balloon. Why does Sheridan
 >Cavitt still stick to the weather balloon story?

 >No, I think Pflock's book will just follow Kal Korff's book to
 >the graveyard of unsold books.

I think you're wrong. I'll have more on this soon.


Brad









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                 Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 16:45:27 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 09:43:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Young


 >Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 20:39:54 -0300
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 08:42:19 -0500

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:56:55 EDT
 >>>Subject: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>A letter from this past Sunday's Star Ledger (NJ) may shed some
 >>>real light on the July 14-15 mystery lights:

 >His ignorance about the FARS [FAA regulations] governing
 >ultra-lite flights leaves a lot to be desired as well.

Why don't you enlighten us?

Please list the FAA regulations which would be violated by
somebody flying an ultralight in the dark, showing lights, for
future reference.

Please give specific examples where I have revealed my ignorance
of such rules and I won't do it again.


Clear skies,


Bob Young











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                 Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 16:59:54 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 09:45:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Young


 >Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 21:22:00 -0300
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 12:27:15 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>>Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 21:27:31 -0700

 >>>I get damn' tired of people who claim pilots are out doing
 >>>dangerous things

 >>I've seen them.

 >>>or they are people [who] don't know what they are
 >>>talking about.

 >>Never claimed that, if fact I got the confirmation of what I had
 >>seen from ultralight pilots who did it.

  ><snip>

 >>>it is, ahem, 'illegal' to fly Ultralights at night, in controlled
 >>>airspace, over populated areas. Period.

<snip>

 >>You are not the first pilot who has told me that ultralight
 >>group flights in the dark have never happened, just because they
 >>aren't supposed to.

 >What you are trying to imply is nonesense pure and simple. There
 >is no way you are going to get a dozen pilots to flaunt the law
 >in this manner in what any pilot would consider rank stupidity
 >and outright dangerous to flight safety. I don't care what one
 >pilot told you. Has it occured to you that the pilot who told
 >you this was an outright liar? Your the sceptic yet you would
 >believe this nonesense? It's something only a novice would
 >believe.

The problem may be, Don, that as a pilot you're just a
reasonable and cautious man. When it comes to your belief in
saucers you can't seem to even imagine that behind the ETs there
might lurk - somebody willing to play a joke.


Clear skies,

Bob Young

-------
Denial, as they say in Alcoholics Anonymous, is not just
a river in Egypt.









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                 Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 17:03:47 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 09:46:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Young


 >Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 21:39:30 -0300
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:21:13 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Ultralight pilots and ultralight airplanes are unlicensed,
 >>although they are _supposed_ to fly under FAA Regs.

 >The pilots are unlicensed - not the aircraft. The pilots can
 >still be charged with busting the regs and public endangerment,
 >>licensed or not.

Don:

Thanks for pointing out this distinction.


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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             Re: Are you Ready For The Revolution? - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 12:09:17 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 09:49:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Are you Ready For The Revolution? - Mortellaro


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Are you Ready For The Revolution?
 >Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 06:19:04 -0500

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 07:29:29 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Are you Ready For The Revolution?
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>>Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 16:57:11 -0400
 >>>Subject: Are you Ready For The Revolution?
 >>>To: www.whitehouse.gov@altavista.com

 >><snip>

 >>>"Are you ready for the revolution?"

 >Yes. Quite!

 >>>Lara Johnstone, a California woman who began a Hunger Strike
 >>>for Disclosure on July 28th.

 >>What? Endanger her life in support of the fantasies of the likes
 >>of Clifford Stone?

 >Great suffering baragrugous Zot, Bobbo old sod! I'm amazed at

Dear All, Al, Errol;

I knew it. Albert Leh.... sorry, Alfred Lehmberg is an Alien. I
knew it! I just knew it. Lookit that strange language he speaks.
Lookit the name of his slight... sight... site... 'Alien View'!
Everyone who has ever experienced a perceived abduction knows
the lingo. "Baragrugous Zot" is alienspeak for "Take me to your
places where I may poke your women!" Alternately translated by
the Gesundt Institoot for Alien Lingo, it could also mean, "I am
thirsty for Gripple, point me to it!"

Terse little bastards, eh?

I digress...

 >how you can so completely and so blithely miss the point in
 >every post you key! Why not just say she's doing this based on
 >one, suspected, hot tub encounter with Dr. Boylan! That's the
 >same _kind_ of straw man that you're trotting out here. You're
 >ninety degrees to the broad side of a barn, sir, for the usual
 >par!

That's easy when the point is right on top of your head. And by
the by, I've been in a hot tub with Boylan. And this straw,
thing. It ain't. I can assure you of that. Lemme, see, 90
degrees to the broad. Nope. That part eludes me.

 >Forget Stone! "Dubya" Bush, our arguable President, looked her
 >in the face and lied to her, in her estimation, and she's
 >_pissed_ about it, just like _you_ should be. Man, if I didn't
 >absolutely _know_ that my German wife would have me committed
to >an institution, I would _join_ with her in her hunger
strike, >and otherwise try to add a little fuel to her fire!

Your wife is Gehrman? Oh my gosh, Al... I think I'll leave that
one alone.

 >>Sad, sad, very sad. And pathetic.

Boy, you ain't just whistlin Dixie!

<snip>


Surprised in Mellowland,

Morty








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                               Danish Circles

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 18:41:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 09:52:05 -0400
Subject: Danish Circles


(not a pastry...)

Source: The Danish Post

http://cphpost.periskop.dk/default.asp?id=16055

Mysterious crop-circle returns to Jutland
Rebecca K. Engmann
1. August 2001

A 55 year-old man from East Jutland claims to be one of the
country's leading crop-circle researchers.

Summer is high season for the appearance of mysterious circles
in wheat fields. Fifty-five year-old self-styled 'crop-circle
researcher' Jonah Ohayv recently discovered a large circle
bearing an ostensibly Celtic pattern in a field near
Frijsenborg. This is the second year in a row that a crop-circle
has appeared within a 15 km radius of Ohayv's East Jutland home.

Ohayv became a crop-circle researcher in 1998. His passion for
the mysterious international phenomenon led him to abandon his
career as a psychotherapist.

Ohayv returned from a study-tour and crop-circle meeting in Eng-
land in late-July. He reports that he returned home on July 27,
and that the circle 'must have been made' on the night of July
26. Ohayv denies accusations that he himself has made the
circles in the wheat fields.

'Honestly, now. If I could make crop-circles like the new ones,
I could earn thousands of kroner for it. It could be a new art
form. I'd talk about it, instead of spending my time researching
it and constantly standing back, saying I don't know what it
is,' said Ohayv.












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               Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data -

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 19:26:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 09:54:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data -


 >From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data
 >Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 15:49:47 +1000

 >Lazar story may or may not be true

 >In my humble opinion, I feel Lazar was working for JPL. But
 >didn't work with Elements such as 115, but rather was given the
 >information by someone within JPL who was working with it.

<snip>

 >Still the fact remains, Elements like 115 and others do exist,
 >contrary to what we were lead to believe in the past.

And we're supposed to just take your word for it?

Heck, if that's the case, why not just flat out believe any- and
everything Lazar has already claimed?

Why not just believe that ET is here and stop asking for proof?

 >115 is from the same family of elements that magnetic fields
 >get there power/energy from.

Huh...???

 >Some years ago I learnt elements like 115 needed a catalyst
 >element to get them to release there energy,

Again I say, "Huh?!?"

Where did you allegedly get this "115"?

How did you allegedly learn about its "catalyst element"?

 >given the fact that this catalyst element was in the 200 range

"fact"...?

 >and said to be found only on the moon.

_Who_ said?

 >At the end of the day, we are nothing more than children playing
 >with things we have little understanding of and those that have
 >just a small understanding of such things, warn of the dangers
 >associated with such little understanding. Which for me is the
 >real worry, WHY do these people with an understanding go so far
 >out of their way to warn us? AND why do we not heed their
 >warnings?

Because the unrestricted belief in unsubstantiated claims, such
as the ones you're promulgating, leaves the door open to belief
in even more bizarre ideas -- the cumulative effect being a path
along the Highway of Ignorance and a return to the Dark Ages;
the effect of _that_ always being more fighting, war, death,
etc.

Note, I'm not saying what does or doesn't exist; it's just that
you've stated some Really Important Things as "fact", and have
given us only hearsay. Excuse me if I need a little bit more
in order to believe.

Take care.











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                          Secrecy News -- 08/08/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@igc.org>
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 14:09:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 09:56:43 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/08/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
August 8, 2001

**CHINA DEBATE "PARALYZED" BY IDEOLOGUES
**INADVERTENT DISCLOSURES OF CLASSIFIED INFO
**HUAC RECORDS UNSEALED

CHINA DEBATE "PARALYZED" BY IDEOLOGUES

Public debate over U.S. policy toward China is so skewed by
ideological prejudices that "We're almost self-paralyzed," said
Michael Pillsbury, a China specialist at the National Defense
University.

"We don't have a debate taking place," he said. Instead, "we
have potshots being taken at each other's integrity." Mr.
Pillsbury spoke August 3 at a hearing of the U.S.-China Security
Review Commission.

Among the primary targets of these potshots is the Central
Intelligence Agency. The most scathing criticism directed
against the CIA today is not about its evasions of
accountability, its anachronistic classification policies or its
deviation from constitutional norms. Rather, the Agency has
become a principal target of the political right because it is
supposedly "soft on China."

"CIA reporting on China is biased and slanted toward a benign
view of the emerging communist power," writes Bill Gertz in the
Washington Times. Mr. Gertz, author of a recent book entitled
"The China Threat," has kept up a steady drumbeat of "CIA Bias
Updates" in his Washington Times columns.

Last week, in yet another item berating the CIA's insufficiently
bellicose view on China, Mr. Gertz threw the worst insult he
could think of at Director of Central Intelligence George Tenet.
He noted that "Mr. Tenet is a Democratic holdover from the
Clinton administration."

In Mr. Pillsbury's assessment, there are two sharply polarized
views of China among American national security elites and
academics. There is the hawkish view that stresses the Chinese
threat, and the benign view that sees China inexorably
progressing to democracy and peaceful integration in the
international order.

The hawkish group, which refers to itself as the "blue team,"
warns of imminent catastrophe. Mr. Pillsbury summarized the
prescription of the blue team, represented by Mr. Gertz and
others, as follows: "Get ready for military conflict, prepare
yourself for domestic subversion, protect your highest level of
technology from theft, increase your internal security measures,
strengthen your armed forces, and beware of the Chinese forming
coalitions against the United States."

Adherents of a more pacific view of China, derided by their
opponents as the "red team," assume that the forces of
modernization and the marketplace will automatically make
everything turn out okay. Mr. Pillsbury described their stance
this way: "Do not antagonize China, do not overreact to Chinese
behavior. All we have to do is trade with them and invest."

Beyond exchanging insults, there is little substantive
communication between those who embrace these contrasting views,
according to Mr. Pillsbury, and therefore there is little
progress toward a more sophisticated understanding of China.

"These two groups make up almost the entire China field with
very little middle in between," he said. "Any question you refer
to China experts is going to become a victim of this
[polarization]."

Public debate over China is further impoverished by a lack of
Chinese language skills.

"When nobody reads Chinese very well, among either the red team
or the blue team, outsiders have to question the credibility of
both groups," Mr. Pillsbury said.

"We have very few people who can read Chinese who work on
Chinese security matters," he said. There are "close to none who
can actually read a newspaper or an article published by the
Chinese military or a Chinese government think tank. We have
almost no one in our government who can do that."

As a result, "we rely heavily on translations," particularly
those of the CIA's Foreign Broadcast Information Service (FBIS).
But FBIS, Mr. Pillsbury noted, does not translate books, except
by special arrangement. It translates very few journals of
Chinese government think tanks. And no more than "one or two
percent of the Chinese military daily newspaper is ever
translated into English."

A fawning portrayal of the blue team, "Blue Team Takes on Red
China" by J. Michael Waller, appeared in the Washington Times
Insight Magazine on June 4:

http://www.insightmag.com/archive/200106047.shtml

Michael Pillsbury's book "China Debates the Future Security
Environment," which presents new translations on security policy
from some 200 Chinese authors, may be found here:

http://www.ndu.edu/inss/books/pills2.htm


INADVERTENT DISCLOSURES OF CLASSIFIED INFO

Hundreds of pages of classified documents concerning nuclear
weapons were inadvertently made available to researchers at the
National Archives, according to a new Department of Energy (DOE)
report to Congress.

Following an examination of approximately 100 million pages of
declassified records at the Archives, DOE reviewers found 288
documents containing 840 pages of classified nuclear weapons
information.

"The identified documents are in collections belong to the
Department of State and the Department of Defense. The documents
were inadvertently declassified and made available to the public
during the years from 1995 to 2000 by the Department of State,
the Department of the Navy, and the National Archives and
Records Administration. Three of the documents were subsequently
found on the Internet," the report states.

The inadvertent disclosures "could assist potential adversaries"
in developing nuclear weapons or delivery systems, according to
the report.

But classification experts discounted the problem for two
reasons. One is that, for the most part, the technology of first
generation nuclear weapons information found in some of the
documents has long been in the public domain. The second reason
is that DOE classification standards have still not been fully
updated since the end of the cold war, so that much innocuous
information is still considered "classified."

"I'm not saying they haven't found one or two sensitive
documents," said Steven Garfinkel of the federal Information
Security Oversight Office. But "in almost all cases," the
inadvertently disclosed records are "of no continuing national
security sensitivity."

Most of the information "has previously been publicly available,
for decades in many cases," Mr. Garfinkel said. In many cases,
"this is information about the basing of nuclear warheads or
delivery systems in NATO countries, primarily during the 50s and
60s."

"It's absolutely ridiculous that you would spend millions and
millions of dollars to track these records down," Mr. Garfinkel
said.

A declassifed version of the May 2001 report to Congress was
released by the Department of Energy on August 7 and may be
found here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/inadvertent3.html


HUAC RECORDS UNSEALED

Following a campaign led by a coalition of historians and
archivists, the records of the former House Committee on
Un-American Activities (HUAC) are being made available to the
public.

The newly opened collection includes HUAC records concerning
atomic espionage, as well as Committee investigations into the
Ku Klux Klan, American Nazis, civil rights and anti-war
activists, and diverse other topics dating from 1945 to 1975,
when HUAC was abolished.

Further information may be found in an August 8 press release
from the National Coordinating Committee for the Promotion of
History:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/08/huac.html

******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:

subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]


Secrecy News is archived at:

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_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Aug > Aug 9

                 Ramey Message 'Eagle Seal' [was: Review of

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 21:35:57 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 10:00:55 -0400
Subject: Ramey Message 'Eagle Seal' [was: Review of


 >Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 17:30:01 +0100
 >From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'

 >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:07:12 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 15:49:48 -0700


 >>>I should have written "not only a balloon, mogul or otherwise".
 >>>I think you have to look very carefully and follow Neil Morris's
 >>>line of reasoning. It's also important to study the debris
 >>>footage in the AA and see the connections between it and the FW
 >>>debris.


 >>I have many times reviewed his "line of reasoning" on his
 >>website and find it bizarre, unsubstantiated, and technically
 >>inaccurate - criticism which now will no doubt get me damned
 >>and vilified even though there can be no doubt that I am
 >>correct. He apparently still defends the "eagle seal" on the
 >>Ramey message, since it still appears on his website, when in
 >>fact all it is is a jumble of lines of text, not a circular
 >>emblem, seen on the message at a very steep angle. The text in
 >>that far upper left corner is only about 15� off from seeing the
 >>paper edge-on but his interpretation of the purported "seal" is
 >>about 45� off of horizontal edge-on. That is a factor 3x error.


 >Brad, As I've said to you before on the point of the Ramey
 >message your interpretation and "model" takes zero account of
 >the paper _not_ being a "flat surface" when observational
 >details (light gradients) show it's a highly complex set of
 >curved surfaces.


Neil,

I give you numbers you give me doubletalk. It is text of a
message, not an image of a bird, an eagle!

Do we only get pelicanism out of the UK these days?

I gave you specific _quantitative_ measurements of the angles of
orientation of the paper - which you totally ignore because you
can't refute them - and you respond by pointing to irrelevant
minor ripples or deviations from a flat surface.

You overlay an "eagle seal" over the Ramey message that is about
45� off horizontal whereas the Ramey paper is itself at about
15� in that top-left corner. Your seal overlay is therefore
grossly improperly positioned by a factor of three, an error of
300%, a few degrees' deviation for ripples or curves makes no
dent in the size of the overall error, of 300%. How can there
possibly be any dispute over this? Is it because angles are
involved? Is it because numbers are involved? Do people just
tune out as soon as they see a number or a concept they think is
too intricate? Why is this so hard? This problem would make a
laughingstock in any university math or physics department in
the world.

Your "demo" seal is properly oriented at the 15� angle - it's
your _overlay_ seal that is grossly in error. The difference is
obvious. In effect, your overlay seal is standing up off the
plane of the paper, yet you claim it represents images _on_ the
paper amounting to a U.S. official seal like the Defense
Department seal (which did not exist for more than 2 more years,
when the NME became the DoD in Aug 1949).

If your "eagle seal" actually existed it would have to float
nearly 1 inch above and away from the surface of the Ramey
message, in the top-left corner. Thus, it is a physical
impossibility. What you are imagining is unreal.

(The trigonometry on this is high-school level. Let me spell it
out in words so the numbers and trig functions don't paralyze
the mind: The difference between the inclination angle of your
overlay seal and the Ramey paper top-left corner is thirty
degrees. So it's the sine of thirty degrees times the one and a
half inch diameter of the seal, or three-fourths inch height
above the paper of the far edge of the seal. Round off to one
inch since you have yet to give me the exact size of the seal
you used.)

If you want to correct this blunder you must tilt your seal
overlay at the same 15� angle as in your demo, and then overlay
it on top of the Ramey message. You will then see it doesn't
match anything. Your demo is correct, your overlay is not. It is
your overlay that purports to match ink blobs on Ramey's
document into a pattern supposedly comprising an official U.S.
"eagle seal."

The fact that at some spots the curves and ripples in the paper
may alter this angle to the camera by a few degrees from 15�, so
it is say 13� or 17�, is _irrelevant_. The fact remains that
your 45� "eagle seal" is nowhere even close to 15� or 13� or
whatever, it is a 300% or factor 3x error.

Your message to us is, in effect, stop trying to read the first
half of the message, it doesn't exist or it is obliterated by a
supposed 1.5-inch "eagle seal." If people listen to you on this
then they won't bother looking for 8-10 lines of text as they
instead will be chasing windmills looking for an "eagle" or some
other image rather than words or letters that are part of the
message. This is not helping the effort to read the message by
imagining images that aren't there in place of text to be
deciphered.


 >>The simulation experiment he did in response to my challenge
 >>proves it because it shows his "eagle seal" having to run right
 >>off the top edge of the paper, thus proving it physically could
 >>not possibly be an "eagle seal."


 >Here you don't seem to grasp the idea indicated in the image
 >that the paper at the point the "seal runs off the top edge" is
 >actually curved at or beyond the plane of observation, over the
 >"visible horizon"

Huh??? If the paper curves out of sight at the edge then by
definition it isn't _visible_ anymore and there won't be
anything on that invisible portion to match up with an "eagle"
or anything else! If the alleged "eagle," or a large part of it,
is on this supposedly hidden edge of the paper, then what on
earth are you claiming to have matched up with the shape and
contours of an "eagle"??? If it's not visible it's not visible!
This is madness!!!!

And no it isn't curved "over the 'visible horizon'"! Look
closely at the top left corner of the Ramey Message. The corner
of the paper where you put the supposed "seal" is _not_ curved
out of sight. You can see the left edge and top edge, both are
there. If the edge of the paper did curl out of sight, hidden by
the other portions of the paper itself, then the 15� grazing
angle I measured would have dropped down to 10� then 5� then 0�
as one approached the edge of the paper, and it doesn't do that,
and there is a control sample for comparison where another part
of the Ramey paper does go off edge (see next).

Anyone can see this, and can compare that top-left corner with
an edge of the Ramey paper that _does_ go virtually invisible
because of the angle - and there is no comparison. Near the
middle of the top edge of the Ramey paper it does go very nearly
edge-on invisible where the angle to the camera drops to about
1� or less but it is more than 3 inches away from the top-left
corner where your 1.5-inch "eagle seal" is supposed to be
(dimensions assuming about a 7-inch wide paper, if it is 6
inches adjust accordingly, etc.). This nearly disappearing edge
gives us a control sample of what such an effect actually looks
like on the actual Ramey paper and it makes it 100% certain that
top-left corner does _not_ do that.


 >but still there, we're dealing with an object
 >in 3 dimensional space here even though it's only a 2d image.

 >>His simulated paper looks
 >>nothing like his interpretation of a supposed "seal." His "seal"
 >>superimposed over the Ramey message runs from Ramey's thumb at
 >>the half-way fold in the paper and covers the entire 3-inch high
 >>top half of the paper all the way to the top and right off the
 >>edge, stretching out nearly 4 inches high when the top half of
 >>the paper itself is only about 3 inches high and the seal is
 >>supposed to be only about 1.5 inches in diameter.


 >You miss the point of the demo images completely, in that they
 >demonstrate the effect generated by the combination of
 >foreshortening due to the acute angles involved combined with
 >the curved surfaces indicated on the message paper. Because of
 >these points it _is_ possible for a seal/stamp placed in the top
 >left corner of the message paper to be seen where I believe it
 >is located in the image.

This is non-quantitative verbal gobbledygook. Prove your case
not by useless verbiage but by tilting an eagle seal at the
correct angle of about 15� off of edge-on, as you've done, and
then _overlaying_ and comparing the image blob-by-blob with the
real thing. You have not done the overlay of a seal at 15� (your
overlay is at 45�). You have not done the point-by-point
comparison - and you cannot because they don't compare and it
is glaringly obvious. Your demo eagle is correctly shown as so
flattened due to the angle that you cannot compare wing to wing,
talon to talon, head to head with the real Ramey message image
-- if there had really been an eagle on the Ramey mes sage it
would be so flattened by the angle of the paper it wouldn't even
be recognizable as such.

My best estimate of the size of your eagle inside the seal is
about 8 millimeters high by about double that in width, when
laid full on to view. If this is tilted to 15� in the vertical
then the eagle shrinks to only 2 millimeters in height, but
retaining the same width. How on earth can you see any shapes of
wings, head, talons, in an image only 2 mm tall, under ordinary
viewing conditions, perhaps projected on a computer screen?

You can't do an overlay comparison because in fact what _you_
see as an "eagle" inside a double-circle "seal" is in reality
scattered blobs of text stretching across about the entire top
2-3 inches of the Ramey paper from the center fold upward.  It's
like seeing faces in a tortilla or a cloud.

You do not seem to even grasp that the issue here is one of
_vertical_ distortion. Your eagle when laid flat is a little
over a quarter-inch high, about 0.3 inch, which is roughly 10%
of the height of the top half of the Ramey message. If overlaid
onto text your eagle from top to bottom would cover about the
separation of 1 line of text, in height (the message has space
for about 10 lines of text in the bottom half, and 10% is
therefore 1, simple math, but also easily measured in the photos
on your website). When the eagle is tilted as in your demo it is
compressed in the vertical dimension but so is the paper and it
therefore still maintains the same fraction 10% of the height of
the top half of the paper.

But what _you_ interpret as an "eagle" in the Ramey Message
photo is so wildly distorted that it is comprised of blobs of
text spread across about 30% of the height of the top half of
the paper, or 3 lines of text in height, and then merged in your
mind into the form of a supposed "eagle."

Again, it is text of a message, not an image of a bird!

Your 45� "eagle seal" is totally imaginary because it doesn't
lay flat on the plane of the Ramey paper. Indeed it would have
to be larger than the paper itself in order stretch sufficiently
so as to match the eagle shape to the blobs you have picked out
on the Ramey paper that are actually words - not eagle wings or
talons or whatever. This has nothing to do with whether a file
clerk misstamped a seal off the edge of the paper. I'm talking
about vertical distortion by 300% that is so great that when
_you_ - not some file clerk 47 years ago - overlaid the eagle
seal in a way that you thought matched the ink blots on the
Ramey message most closely, it ran off the page in the vertical
dimension. The issue is the amount of vertical distortion. If
250% vertical distortion of the purported "eagle" and round
"seal" came just to the edge of the paper and didn't run off, it
still would be a physical impossibility. Going off the edge just
makes it look more ridiculous. It is still a physical absurdity.

 >There was only 1 example sheet used in
 >the demo images and you see it in one image fully opened, this
 >same demo sheet produced IMHO a very convincing mock up of what
 >is seen in the Ramey Message image. As for quibbles regarding
 >seal sizes etc, I produced demo sheets with seals sized larger
 >and smaller than the one finally used, all produced similar
 >results, the one used seemed closest sizewise to the original,
 >but producing an identical copy was not my aim in this exercise.>


 >>(I have to infer and estimate these dimensions because he does
 >>not bother to give them to us on the webpage, a very incomplete
 >>procedure to say the least.

 >If you give me the exact dimensions of the Ramey Message I'll
 >re-run the experiment, as it is there is little scale reference

This is called blowing smoke, Neil. You have at hand your own
piece of paper you photographed for the demo, which is what I
was talking about, don't force me to have to reprint the entire
posting just to prove from English language sentence structure
that that was what I was referring to. Give it to us instead of
engaging in irrelevant distractions about the Ramey message's
dimensions. Don't leave us having to guess whether you drew in a
1.5-inch seal or a 2-inch seal or whatever on your own piece of
paper. You know exactly the size or can measure it and tell us.
The same for the size of the paper you drew it on - is it 5 x 7
inches, 4 x 6 or what? This is just basic scientific procedure
in any experiment.

 >to be had within the FW pictures and to run complex 3d modeling
 >software on the images that might give such sizes accurately
 >it's required to know exact details of the camera/lens system
 >used. As the Speed Graphic had interchangeable lens and was
 >supplied with a range of "standard" lens, and as JBJ has no
 >recollection of lens used (why should he) it would require
 >finding a known scaled feature in the same plane as the message
 >just to estimate sizes. Seals used around that time varied
 >greatly in size, I've seen samples in use on period documents
 >from 3/4" thro 2+", they could be part of a letter head and pre
 >printed or in the form of a "hand stamp" or machine date/time
 >stamp, all seem to have the familiar tram-lines inner and outer
 >rim as seen on the message

Gawd you make all this so damned hard! If you had done this
right you would have put on the webpage right from the outset a
clear statement of your experimental protocol something like: "I
do not have the exact dimensions of the Ramey paper. A close
estimate would be about 5 x 7 inches so therefore I took a piece
of paper of those dimensions [or whatever the exact numbers
_YOU_ have to fill it in] and folded and creased it in such a
way as to try to simulate the folds and curves of the Ramey
message, after drawing in an eagle seal of 1.5 inches diameter
[again _YOU_ put in the correct number for the diameter] located
1 inch [ditto] from the top and left margins in the to-left
corner." Is that so doggone hard???

No wonder scientists won't touch Ufology - you have to fight
over basics and even the meaning of the English language just to
be understood on simple concepts. Forget it if it comes to more
complicated concepts!

Do you know what the meaning of "is" is, Neil?


 >>So if I am a little off, and maybe
 >>the "seal" is say only 1.25 inches across, all the other figures
 >>should be scaled accordingly, and it has absolutely no effect on
 >>my conclusions whatsoever which depend solely on the relative
 >>scale or ratios between the various dimensions not on their
 >>absolute values.)


 >Brad, I'd have no arguments if we were dealing with _flat_
 >folded paper but we're not, the top left of that sheet curves up
 >and presents itself at a far more favorable angle than you
 >accept, but check out the way the paper is illuminated in the
 >image. That left corner is bright compared to say the area just
 >above the thumbnail, yes, how so?, if this was a flat surface
 >the observed illumination would be uniform. The only way, seeing
 >this image was illuminated from a point source close by the
 >camera must be that the angle of the corner's surface is raised
 >at a greater angle than that in the thumb area, as I say you
 >cannot treat the message paper as a flat surface because it
 >isn't flat, the top half of the message isn't you're uniform 15
 >degrees or otherwise to the observation plane because the
 >observed illumination isn't uniform, it changes with the curves
 >and folds of the paper.

More smoke and mirrors. I have already refuted this above. Don't
make me have to repeat it all.

 >If you want to see just how curved the paper is take a close
 >look at the paper as seen in the Bettmann Ramey Dubose image
 >where the paper can be seen fully unfolded but text side away
 >from the camera. If you look at the lower edge, though this is
 >intersected by the main fold it's quite evident the paper is
 >holding a distinct curve, in fact one could say this might
 >support the premise the message had only recently been around
 >the roller in a typewriter and supporting the thought it
 >originated locally at FWAAF.

Again more smoke and mirrors delving into irrelevancies in a
non-quantitative way about what in effect amounts to quibbles
over whether the paper is at a 13� angle or a 15� angle at
certain points in the top-left corner. Irrelevant!

As for a typewriter, then what is all that teletype
tractor-feed-type ribbon coming off the left edge of the paper?
If Ramey had just sent the message don't you think he would keep
a file copy of the actual message not just a typewritten draft?

 >>He has his interpretation of the "seal" oriented so that the top
 >>is at the natural 12 o'clock position on the computer screen
 >>that one would expect. But if you look at the top edge of the
 >>Ramey paper you must rotate your head about 30� to the right, to
 >>the 1 o'clock position, to properly view the paper in the upper
 >>left corner at the correct orientation. Thus his interpretation
 >>of the alleged "seal" is actually rotated about 30� incorrectly.
 >>(His paper simulation fails to correctly match the Ramey paper
 >>on this point since it conveniently only rotates about 15� to
 >>the right, hiding half the rotation error.)

 >If this was a handstamp the orientation could be way out
 >depending on how the clerk that struck it slept the night
 >before, but as I mention above the demo sheet was produced just
 >to demo a point not as a detailed reproduction. I think deducing
 >exact orientation of the seal is highly debatable considering
 >the small amount of image data available but those twin seal rim
 >tramtracks _are_ there and visible.

No they're not, you're seeing things. I have first generation
high-res prints directly from the negative done at varying
contrast levels from UTA archives and I see no such "twin seal
rim."

Your imagination has run wild and you're connecting up the dots
of dust or dirt on the negative. The double-circle rim of your
supposed seal if it really existed would be floating an inch
above the paper.

 >>Again what he interprets as dark blobs comprising an "eagle" in
 >>a seal at one angle is in fact blobs of about 8-10 lines of text
 >>in the first half of the message, seen almost on-edge at the
 >>correct 1 o'clock rotation of one's head. His "eagle seal" would
 >>wipe out the first half of the message, albeit the first few
 >>lines are no doubt military teletype addresses and not the
 >>verbal message content.

 >I think the demo images indicate this need not be the case, it's
 >the same mock up sheet used throughout the demo images and that
 >demo seal wouldn't necessarily overlap text, we don't after all
 >know how many lines of text were on that upper half of the
 >sheet. On reflection, after viewing the Bettmann image where the
 >whole sheet can be seen and which I only obtained long after the
 >seal demo sheet experiment was completed, I would now say the
 >sheet I mocked up is actually shorter than that in Ramey's hand.

As I said earlier don't give us verbiage, give us measurements.
Otherwise it is just meaningless doubletalk.

 >>I bring up these examples because here at least we can deal with
 >>_quantitative_ measurements about which there can be no real
 >>doubt, and subject to easy independent calculation, just take a
 >>ruler on your computer screen and all you have to know is a
 >>little trigonometry. And it shows that his interpretations when
 >>quantitatively checked are way off the mark, so much so that he
 >>is misinterpreting lines of horizontal text as a graphic image
 >>at a skewed angle.

 >And if you do place a ruler on the screen you'll get some idea
 >just how curved these surfaces are, try putting your ruler under
 >a line of text!.

More red herrings (herrons? pelicans?) as distractions to avoid
connecting with the point I actually made. I said you're not
quantitative and you reply with no numbers, just irrelevancies.
We're not talking about the text of the bottom half of the
message, where one can put a ruler under the line of text and
see how wavy it is. We're talking about the top-left corner of
the top half of the Ramey message!

If one spot in the top-left corner is at 13� and another at 15�
it doesn't at all come close to rescuing your totally imaginary
"eagle seal" at 45�!!!!

 >If you dispute the seal how do you explain the visibility of the
 >large heading also made visible in the top right of the message
 >paper and revealed by the self same mechanism I believe, as the
 >seal?. I'm not the only researcher to attest to this feature.

What "self same mechanism"???? Do you have machines or
mechanisms that think for you now? It's your imagination that
sees an eagle seal at a 45� angle that is impossible because
that would put the seal in the air floating above the surface of
the paper. The paper is at too steep an angle at 15� in the
top-left corner to be able to see any such "seal" if it really
was on the surface of the paper. I've given actual numbers for
this (above), not mere subjective opinion.

 >Brad, I did what I believe was the scientific thing to do here,
 >I took my theory, produced a real world model from it and
 >attempted to reproduce with that model the observed effects

You didn't even give elementary scientific basics such as the
size of the seal and the size of the paper you used. You forced
me to have to waste time guessing - and possibly later having to
re-do calculations if and when you give me real numbers - when
you could just produce the figures.

 >within the image. Considering sizes etc had to be largely
 >assumed I believe the resultant images from that simple
 >experiment provide positive support for the theory they were
 >based on. Try it yourself, all you need is a piece of paper, a
 >marker pen and a reasonable copy of the Ramey Message pic so you
 >can simulate (roughly) the way the message paper is curved and
 >folded, then hold it at arms length in the same orientation as
 >in the Ramey image, use one eye to simulate the camera lens.

 >>If when he can be checked quantitatively he
 >>is so far off how can we then trust him on something that is so
 >>subjective and non-quantitative as imagining "symbols" and
 >>"Egyptian hieroglyphics" in amorphous images at the limits of
 >>resolution of the photos of the Roswell debris?


 >Hell's bell's _don't_ just trust me!... that's the last thing I
 >want. I report what _I_ see, go and look at these things for
 >yourselves and then you can reach your own conclusions for or
 >against. What I _do_ want people to do is to take a bit of time
 >to look and then think hard about the origin of the anomalies,
 >many of which are_not_ at the limits of image resolution.

Rohrschach ink blots are reproducible and visible to people,
too, but the dragon and butterfly images are still imaginary,
even though people can "see it for themselves."

Let me recap here: You've made a serious mistake about the
orientation of the paper in the top-left corner of the Ramey
message. It is a physical impossibility for an "eagle seal" at a
45� angle, as you've overlaid it over the Ramey message image,
to be on the surface of the paper, which is much flatter at a
15� angle, as it would float above the paper by nearly 1 inch.
You have the equivalent of a pelican outflying a civil aircraft.


Brad









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                Re: Aegean Airspace Challengers... From Outer

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 18:14:32 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 10:04:53 -0400
Subject: Re:  Aegean Airspace Challengers... From Outer


 >From UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >Source: ABCNEWS.com

 >http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/turkey010808_ufo.html

 >Eyes to the Skies
 >Aegean Airspace Challengers... From Outer Space?

 >By John K. Cooley

 >A T H E N S, Aug. 8 -- Greek and Turkish air force pilots,
 >sharing contested Aegean airspace, are used to seeing a fighter
 >or two of their usually friendly adversary looping around them,
 >or diving to intercept their patrol or training flights.

 >But for two Turkish trainee pilots, the aerobatics were
 >different this time.
 >
 >While on a routine training flight in a U.S.-made T-37 off the
 >Turkish Aegean coastal town of Candarli, they suddenly had
 >reason to call their home base control tower.

 >A bright object had approached their plane at high speed and
 >reportedly gyrated around them for about a half hour.

 >The Turkish newspaper Hurriyet quoted their call: "Object
 >approaching the wings. Now it's behind the plane... now it's in
 >front of us." They told their controller and the regional war
 >alert center of the Turkish army that the apparent Unidentified
 >Flying Object had an unusual shape that looked like a cross
 >between a cone and a disc.

 >A Widely Curious Incident

 >Turkish air force sources said they were investigating.
 >So were the neighboring Greeks.

 >The Turks were planning to report the encounter to international
 >bodies - especially the U.S. National Aeronautics and Space
 >Administration.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Hello Errol and all:

I think the story above is potentially much more interesting
than any lights in the sky. Note the shape given, something
between a disk and a cone... Right out of a 1950s space invaders
movie I hope!

Hopefully, more details will emerge than those given in the
brief ABC account. I'd like the date and time of the actual
incident, even if that is of little concern to ABC News who
should know better.

It will get more interesting still if the Turkish military or
government does indeed stir up some international inquiry.

Is there anyone on-list who can dig up more on this?


Best!

- Larry Hatch








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                 Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 07:31:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 10:06:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Young


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: 8 Aug 2001 09:04:39 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

 >>Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 20:48:49 -0300
 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

 >>>From: Bob Young Y<oungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:56:55 EDT
 >>>Subject: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>A letter from this past Sunday's Star Ledger (NJ) may shed some
 >>>real light on the July 14-15 mystery lights:

 >Don, you are correct. This reminds me of all the bruhaha over
 >flares regarding the Phoenix Lights. I think someone has got to
 >get a grip here and learn more about flares and flare activity.
 >Aerial flares over any residential area could be extremely
 >hazardous.


Bill:

No one on this List suggested this possibility. Military Flares
can be seen for tens of miles.

 >Lets see now... ultra-lights are flying at night and
 >launching flares...

Nobody here ever mentioned this, either.

 >hmmm, I would rather believe in flying saucers and the tooth fairy.

Before the possibility that an unlicensed pilot would play a
joke on you?

I think that the joke may be on the believers, Bill.


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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              Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 10:17:12 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 10:35:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Mortellaro


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 16:45:27 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 20:39:54 -0300
 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

 >>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>>Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 08:42:19 -0500

 >>>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:56:55 EDT
 >>>>Subject: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>A letter from this past Sunday's Star Ledger (NJ) may shed some
 >>>>real light on the July 14-15 mystery lights:

 >>His ignorance about the FARS [FAA regulations] governing
 >>ultra-lite flights leaves a lot to be desired as well.

 >Why don't you enlighten us?

 >Please list the FAA regulations which would be violated by
 >somebody flying an ultralight in the dark, showing lights, for
 >future reference.

 >Please give specific examples where I have revealed my ignorance
 >of such rules and I won't do it again.

Dear All, and EBK,

May I take this one? Please?  Thank yous.

Regulations cited are 109488.00Vol.17 para 2.3 (it may be 3.2)
says that during the waning gibbon phase of the moon, and when
Jupitor is lying with Mars ...

I forgot.

Anyway it's one of those.

Morty.








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                       National UFO Conference Update

From: Stephen Miles Lewis <smiles@elfis.net>
Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 10:48:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 14:15:26 -0400
Subject: National UFO Conference Update


The 38th Annual
NATIONAL UFO CONFERENCE
September 14-15-16
Austin, Texas

www.nufoc.net
www.drafthouse.com

Sponsored by
www.theUFOstore.com


UpDate Contents:

-Speaker Focus
-OnLine Teaser Preview
-Official Conference Poster
-Tickets Now Available For Purchase OnLine


NUFOC 38 SPEAKERS

Robert Anton Wilson, Jenny Randles, Constance Clear, Patrick
Huyghe, Karl Pflock, Kenn Thomas, Greg Bishop, Eugenia
Macer-Story, James Arthur, David Perkins, James Moseley, Mack
White, Russ Dowden, Tom Deuley, Loren Coleman, Diana Hoyt,
Pamela Stonebrooke, Bruce Wright, Ed Conroy, Erik Stearns,
Dennis Stacy, Don Webb, Miles Lewis, Tim Brigham, Steve Mizrach,
Jim Beal.

-Robert Anton Wilson-

RAW is the coauthor, with Robert Shea, of the underground
classic The Illuminatus! Trilogy , which won the 1986 Prometheus
Hall of Fame Award. His other writings include Schrodinger's Cat
Trilogy, called "the most scientific of all science fiction
novels," by New Scientist, and several nonfiction works of
Futurist psychology and guerilla ontology, such as Prometheus
Rising and The New Inquisition.

Robert Anton Wilson is probably responsible for turning more
people on to alternative reality explorations than any other
author. His fiction and non-fiction works always challenge your
belief systems. He is a master of prose and has written about
verything from Flying Saucers and the Illuminati to Magickal
Workings and Quantum Physics. His latest book is Everything Is
Under Control: The Encyclopedia of Conspiracy Theories.

RAW will be presenting his talk "Claims of the Normal: A
Skeptical Analysis" during the Saturday Night Session. He will
also appear within several panel discussions Friday, Saturday
and Sunday.

For more information about Robert Anton Wilson...
http://www.nufoc.net/raw.htm
http://www.rawilson.com


-Jenny Randles-

British ufologist & author of Science and the Ufos, Alien
Contact: The First Fifty Years, The Truth Behind the Men in
Black: Government Agents Or Visitors from Beyond and "more
Paranormal & UFO books than any other author." Former Director
of Investigations for BUFORA, the British UFO Research
Association.

Jenny is considered by many to be Britain's leading ufologist.
Her tireless efforts have helped to understand the multiple
threads found within the UFO phenomenon. While maintaining an
active role in ufo investigations she has managed to write book
after book after book on every aspect of this most important
phenomenon. All the while she has continued to publish her own
magazine, Northern UFO News.

Friday night Jenny will be presenting her talk "Media Influence
on public experiencing of the UFO". Sunday night she will be
speaking on "Earth Lights, Time Storms and Atmospheric Physics
revealed by UFO Related Phenomena". She will also be appearing
on most of our six different panel discussions.

For more information about Jenny Randles...
http://www.nufoc.net/randles.htm


-Loren Coleman-

One of the world's leading cryptozoologists. Coleman has written
books and more than two hundred articles on the subject, has
appeared frequently on radio and television programs, and has
lectured from Idaho to Loch Ness. He has been both on- and
off-camera consultant to NBC-TV's "Unsolved Mysteries," A & E's
"Ancient Mysteries" and other reality-based programs. He
contributes cryptozoology columns, "On the Trail," to the
London- based magazine Fortean Times, and "Mysterious World" to
Fate, as well as occasional articles to The Anomalist and
Fortean Studies.

While Loren Coleman primarily investigates the existence of
undiscovered animals he is also a consumate Fortean; researching
all sorts of strange phenomena and their even more bizarre
inter- connections. For instance, did you know that their are
often conjunctions of UFO flaps and bigfoot sightings? These are
the sorts of connections that drive many a researcher over the
edge. But these are exactly the sort of findings Loren Coleman
has revealed in several of his books including two he
co-authored with veteran ufologist Jerome Clark.

Loren will be talking Sunday morning on how "A Fortean Looks at
the Last Four Decades". On the previous day he will also be
presenting at the First Annual Texas Bigfoot Conference in
Jefferson Texas. At that same conference will be Linda Moulton
Howe who recently commented on the UFO/Bigfoot connection within
the latest edition of Filers Files:
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2001/aug/m08-019.shtml

For more information about Loren Coleman...
http://www.nufoc.net/coleman.htm
http://www.LorenColeman.com
http://www.TexasBigfoot.com


-Karl Pflock-

UFO investigator and author of Roswell: Inconvenient Facts and
the Will to Believe. Karl has recently contributed research
towards the re-investigation of certain seminal ufological
cases. Pflock, a former CIA intelligence officer, congressional
staffer, and deputy assistant secretary of defense, is the
author of Roswell in Perspective and many investigative articles
in UFO and related publications, including Fortean Times,
International UFO Reporter, and The Anomalist.

Like so many people interested in ufos, I took as gospel that
the Roswell Incident was a government coverup of a crashed
saucer. I started having doubts in the late eighties. Whatever
you think about this marker in ufological history, Karl Pflock,
an extraterrestrial hypothesis proponant, will likely make you
think even more deeply about the Roswell "saucer crash" and
whether it is at all related to ET craft.

For more information about Karl Pflock...
http://www.nufoc.net/pflock.htm

And check out his recent appearance on the Today show.. The
first in a series called Truth or Conspiracy, the Today show
looks at the Roswell incident. UFOlogists Kevin Randle and Karl
Pflock of the Mutual UFO Network, talk with Today's Katie Couric
about the Roswell incident. http://www.msnbc.com/news/609170.asp


ONLINE NUFOC TEASER PREVIEW

Thanks to Anomaly Television there will be several teaser
previews in rotation locally on screens at the Alamo Drafthouse
Cinema. And thanks to the wonders of technology you can view it
online with the help of Windows Media Player.

Click the link below to watch the one minute teaser preview:
http://www.themib.com/nufoc01.wmv


OFFICIAL CONFERENCE POSTER

Underground comic artist and conspiracy researcher Mack White
has created an original work of art for the official National
UFO Conference poster. In keeping with the Flying Saucer Film
Festival theme Mack has created a poster in the Pulp Movie
Poster style. Full color posters and other NUFOC merchandise
featuring Mack's design will be available for purchase and
signing by the artist.

Mack White will be giving a brief presentation on "Conspiracy
Gnosis" Friday night. He will also be contributing to several
panel discussions.

Check out the poster here:
http://www.nufoc.net/nufocposter.htm


TICKETS NOW AVAILABLE FOR ONLINE PURCHASE


Thanks to Ticketweb and the Alamo Drafthouse Cinema tickets to
NUFOC 38 can now be purchased online with valid credit card:

<http://www.ticketweb.com/user/?region=texas&query=schedule&venue=alamodrafthous
e&next=243289>


Advance Registration Before September 9th
$30 Individual Day Session Pass
(MUST SPECIFY WHICH SESSION 1 / 3 / 5 )
$20 Individual Night Session Pass
(MUST SPECIFY WHICH SESSION 2 / 4 / 6 )
$45 Day/Night Combo Pass (2 same day sessions)
(MUST SPECIFY WHICH DAY Fri/Sat/Sun )
$120 All Sessions Pass (all 6 sessions)

SEND CHECKS OR MONEY ORDERS TO:

National UFO Conference
PO Box 33509
Austin, TX 78764
Make checks payable to: National UFO Conference

Seating is limited so please enquire immediately.








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                         Element 118 Claim Withdrawn

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:47:15 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 14:16:53 -0400
Subject: Element 118 Claim Withdrawn


Ladies & Gents:

In this week's issue of Science News is an article which states
that the claims for the existance of Element 118 have been
withdrawn.


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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                          MUFON Ontario URL Change

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 14:24:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 14:24:15 -0400
Subject: MUFON Ontario URL Change

Please Note the change to the MUFON Ontario Website:

http://members.home.net/ufoupdates/mufon/index.htm


It'll take a couple of days to move everything over.....



Errol Bruce-Knapp




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                Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 16:08:37 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 09:58:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Ledger


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: 8 Aug 2001 09:04:39 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >
 >>Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 20:48:49 -0300
 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

<snip>

 >>Why would the military be dropping flaes in the biggest TRACON
 >>in the country, in any event. It's at least 100 miles on a side.
 >>Mucho illegal. Can you imagine the commercial heavies sucking
 >>the little buggers in to their high by-pass fans. Any nonesense
 >>about ultra-lites is unworthy of consideration. Flying in that
 >>TRACON? Surely Bob can do better than this.

 >Don, you are correct. This reminds me of all the bruhaha over
 >flares regarding the Phoenix Lights. I think someone has got to
 >get a grip here and learn more about flares and flare activity.
 >Aerial flares over any residential area could be extremely
 >hazardous. Lets see now... ultra-lights are flying at night and
 >launching flares... hmmm, I would rather believe in flying
 >saucers and the tooth fairy.


Hi Bill,

And at that time I remember bringing to the attention of some of
the List memebers that one pilot climbing out of the Pheonix TCA
reported one of these lights above him. A highly dangerous
incident - had that been a flare. It's bad enough an unknown was
in controlled airspace.


Don Ledger








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                Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 16:31:19 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 10:02:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Ledger


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 16:45:27 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 20:39:54 -0300
 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

 >>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>>Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 08:42:19 -0500

 >>>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:56:55 EDT
 >>>>Subject: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>A letter from this past Sunday's Star Ledger (NJ) may shed
 >>>>some real light on the July 14-15 mystery lights:

 >>His ignorance about the FARS [FAA regulations] governing
 >>ultra-lite flights leaves a lot to be desired as well.

 >Why don't you enlighten us?

 >Please list the FAA regulations which would be violated by
 >somebody flying an ultralight in the dark, showing lights, for
 >future reference.

 >Please give specific examples where I have revealed my ignorance
 >of such rules and I won't do it again.

Ultra-lite pilots are greatly restricted without an FAA approved
flying license and are not allowed to fly in the dark because
you cannot fly at night without an endorsement on your flying
license, even as a private pilot.

Ultra-lite pilots do not enjoy the freedom of the skies that a
private ticket allows. Most ultra-lite pilots do not have a
private pilots license. They fly on a very restricted license.

Most aren't allowed to fly when the winds are over 8 knots. Most
ultra-lites don't have electrics, though some of them are
getting more sophisticated than the older types.

If you get a group of ultra-lite pilots with only an ultra-lite
license flying together at night you have an extremely dangerous
and highly illegal situation, Bob - particularly in the New York
TRACON. If the FAA suspected for a moment that ultra-lites had
been responsible for those lights over New Jersey I guarentee
you there would be a full blown and likely highly publicized
investigation going on right now. The fact that you've heard boo
should tell you something.

Don't feel bad, most laypersons don't know anything about flying
and get their general knowledge of aviation from TV and the
movies and the latters lack of aviation knowledge - in most
cases - is deplorable. You'd be hard pressed to find one movie
using flying as a plot or sub-plot that took the time to bother
learning anything about the craft.

Start with Top Gun and work your way down to Sky King. It's
mostly all nonsense, though like the old Sci-fi pulps got many
astronomers and space techs started many of these old flying
movies got many pilots to the flying clubs.


Don Ledger









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                Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 16:36:55 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 10:04:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Ledger


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 07:31:43 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Date: 8 Aug 2001 09:04:39 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

 >>>Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 20:48:49 -0300
 >>>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

 >>>>From: Bob Young Y<oungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:56:55 EDT
 >>>>Subject: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>A letter from this past Sunday's Star Ledger (NJ) may shed some
 >>>>real light on the July 14-15 mystery lights:

 >>Don, you are correct. This reminds me of all the bruhaha over
 >>flares regarding the Phoenix Lights. I think someone has got to
 >>get a grip here and learn more about flares and flare activity.
 >>Aerial flares over any residential area could be extremely
 >>hazardous.

 >No one on this List suggested this possibility. Military Flares
 >can be seen for tens of miles.

 >>Lets see now... ultra-lights are flying at night and
 >>launching flares...

 >Nobody here ever mentioned this, either.

 >>hmmm, I would rather believe in flying saucers and the tooth fairy.

 >Before the possibility that an unlicensed pilot would play a
 >joke on you?

 >I think that the joke may be on the believers, Bill.


There was no joke played here. Find another explanation Bob. The
joke idea doesn't cut it. See my earlier respose to your email.

BTW - what's a believer?

Don Ledger









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              Condon Committee Harrisburg Camera [was: Talk And

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 01:51:19 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 10:13:33 -0400
Subject: Condon Committee Harrisburg Camera [was: Talk And


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 23:19:39 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Talk And Action
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 06:23:09 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Talk And Action
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 23:29:08 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Talk And Action
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>The Prairie Network simply took all-sky pictures which could
 >>>record meteors brighter than fourth magnitude (about the
 >>>limiting brightness of stars in most suburban skies).


Bob,

You simply don't know what you're talking about. The limiting
magnitude for the Prairie Network cameras was 7 magnitudes
poorer than you claim, -3 not +4. (CR p. 768). Further down in
your posting (below) you mistakenly claim that the Condon
Committee set up a meteor tracking camera in Harrisburg, Penn.,
in August 1967, when in fact it was an all-sky airglow camera, a
big difference.

As I recently revealed for the first time in the 34-year history
of criticism of the Condon Report, I have discovered that the
Condon Committee covered up 16 unexplained UFO cases that were
confirmed by the Prairie Network photographs in 1965-7. See my
post of Aug. 4, 2001:

http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/2001/aug/m04-012.shtml


 >>>The system was used for 17 days at Harrisburg during the 1967
 >>>'flap' (during which no flying saucers were recorded _during_
 >>>the time of 100 UFO reports phoned in to Condon Committee
 >>>investigators).

You omit to mention that of the 106 UFO reports made during the
downtown Harrisburg sky watch, only 67 were explained, leaving
39 unexplained or 37%. Even eliminating the supposedly
insufficient information cases, that still leaves 25 unexplained
cases or 24% unexplained with fully adequate data. All very high
percentages of unknowns for a supposedly scientific
investigation of UFOs that purportedly couldn't find any.

You also omit again that the Condon investigator Dr. Gerald
Rothberg and the Condon Report did not blame the UFO phenomenon
for being nonexistent - as you do - but criticized the all-sky
camera used at Harrisburg as essentially worthless (CR p. 765).

 >>The system used by the Condon Committee at Harrisburg was
 >>situated on top of a hospital building and was aimed straight
 >>overhead at zenith. It did not cover the horizon (its coverage
 >>started at 10� above the horizon). How on earth could it have
 >>picked up _any_ UFOs from miles away, unless the UFO just
 >>happened to fly overhead?

 >Are you claiming that the cameras, designed to photograph
 >meteors, could not pick up an object brighter than 4th magnitude
 >unless it was directly overhead? Are you suggesting that for
 >some strange reason known only to the ETs the UFOs were never
 >near the city, but only toward the distant horizon? Why, then
 >were hundreds of UFO reports coming from Harrisburg?

You really must be desperate. The Condon Report (and you)
conveniently fail to mention the distance range around
Harrisburg from which the 106 UFO reports were made during the
operation of the camera. You are completely in error when you
claim there were "hundreds" of UFO reports coming from
Harrisburg as if from the urban city limits instead of the rural
areas for many miles around. I doubt there were any from
downtown Harrisburg where the all-sky camera was perched for a
few weeks.

As I pointed out above, you have the wrong camera system so your
comments on system capability are irrelevant.

And as I posted previously and quoted above, this is the
craziest camera orientation for supposedly catching UFOs I've
ever heard of - pointed straight up overhead and located on top
of a tall downtown hospital building instead of where UFOs
normally are found (rural areas). To have the horizon up to 10�
elevation completely uncovered by the camera is the kiss of
death. It is well known to everyone except you apparently that
UFOs are typically found at low altitudes.

And you have no comment on my previous postings where I point
out as did the Condon Committee that the Harrisburg camera was
so poor it could only pick up aircraft landing lights from 5
miles away. (CR p. 765) But that is only with a well-known
manmade light source with a known airport landing pattern.
Considerably greater resolution would be needed to make any kind
of determination as to an Unexplained UFO status.

The Condon Committee gave 20 arcminutes as the resolution limit
for the camera used at Harrisburg (which means a UFO would have
to be much larger before anyone would have been willing to
classify an image as an unexplained UFO). (CR p. 763)

That means that a typical UFO of about 30 feet in size could not
even be adequately resolved by the Harrisburg camera at
distances greater than just 1 mile. I bet virtually all of the
106 UFO reports came from distances much greater than 1 mile
from the camera.

 >>The Condon Committee rightly criticized the system as of
 >>little use for UFO detection and tracking.

 >Maybe not perfect, but what if the results were ZERO saucers
 >_during_ 100 sightings? What if many sightings came from a
 >distant hilltop packed with believers and saucer club members
 >but no one in the direction of the presumed UFOs downtown
 >noticed anything?

Your suppositions are incoherent. You ignore the fact again that
the Harrisburg camera was put in a bad location and aimed away
from where any UFOs could reasonably have been expected.

The Condon Report criticized the camera used at Harrisburg as
designed for "large, amorphous luminous regions" of the sky
(airglow and aurora phenomena) and "does not have the resolution
necessary for investigating phenomena such as fireballs, ball
lightning, tornadoes, or UFOs." (CR p. 765)

But you dispute the Condon Report's own dismissal of the
Harrisburg camera without providing a shred of evidence to
support your opinion or to refute the Condon Committee's facts.

 >Negative results with any recording system will place some kind
 >of parameter on a phenomenon.

 >Clear skies,

 >Bob Young


Clear answers,

Brad Sparks









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                           THE WATCHDOG - 08-10-01

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 03:14:31 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 10:17:11 -0400
Subject: THE WATCHDOG - 08-10-01


UFOWATCHDOG.COM "Don't Trip On Your Open mind"
http://www.ufowatchdog.com

***NEWS***

~ More So-Called Dropa Stone UFOs?
~ UFO Cult: Want A Clone? The First Human Cloning Company
~ Are UFO Denials All Wet? Shag Harbour UFO
~ ABCNews.com: Turkish Military Pilots Encounter UFO
~ Investigators Stumped by Cattle Mutilations
~ Rush Takes Aim At UFO Politics

***YOUR COMMENTS WANTED***

UFO revolution calling? Will Ufology ever dig its way out or
will the field continue to be buried in UFO snakeoil salesmem,
hoaxes, and the like? Will it continue to be dominated by the
'three-ring' atmosphere that most so-called UFO conferences
generate? The question of a Ufolgical revolution recently
surfaced on a UFO e-list - what do you have to say? E-Mail
comments to: ufowatchdog@earthlink.net








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               Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 09:41:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 10:59:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Lehmberg


 >Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 16:36:55 -0300
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 07:31:43 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>Date: 8 Aug 2001 09:04:39 -0700
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

 >>>>Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 20:48:49 -0300
 >>>>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

 >>>>>From: Bob Young Y<oungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>>>Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:56:55 EDT
 >>>>>Subject: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>>A letter from this past Sunday's Star Ledger (NJ) may shed some
 >>>>>real light on the July 14-15 mystery lights:

 >>>Don, you are correct. This reminds me of all the bruhaha over
 >>>flares regarding the Phoenix Lights. I think someone has got to
 >>>get a grip here and learn more about flares and flare activity.
 >>>Aerial flares over any residential area could be extremely
 >>>hazardous.

 >>No one on this List suggested this possibility. Military Flares
 >>can be seen for tens of miles.

 >>>Lets see now... ultra-lights are flying at night and
 >>>launching flares...

 >>Nobody here ever mentioned this, either.

 >>>hmmm, I would rather believe in flying saucers and the tooth fairy.

 >>Before the possibility that an unlicensed pilot would play a
 >>joke on you?

 >>I think that the joke may be on the believers, Bill.


 >There was no joke played here. Find another explanation Bob. The
 >joke idea doesn't cut it. See my earlier respose to your email.

 >BTW - what's a believer?


Why, that's what our honored Mr. Young sees when he looks in a
mirror! He's a believer of the first water! Give us a hard one!
<g>.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

 >~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.









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   Aug > Aug 10

                           Gerald Anderson A Seal?

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 12:34:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:20:21 -0400
Subject: Gerald Anderson A Seal?



List,

Interesting front page article in today's NY Times about people
who fake their military experiences.

Seems to be increasingly commonplace.

See

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/10/national/10FAKE.html

and

http://cyberseals.org/wos.htm


Dennis Stacy









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               Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 10 Aug 2001 10:44:18 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:29:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Hamilton


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 07:31:43 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Date: 8 Aug 2001 09:04:39 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

 >>>Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 20:48:49 -0300
 >>>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

 >>>>From: Bob Young Y<oungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:56:55 EDT
 >>>>Subject: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>A letter from this past Sunday's Star Ledger (NJ) may shed some
 >>>>real light on the July 14-15 mystery lights:

 >>Don, you are correct. This reminds me of all the bruhaha over
 >>flares regarding the Phoenix Lights. I think someone has got to
 >>get a grip here and learn more about flares and flare activity.
 >>Aerial flares over any residential area could be extremely
 >>hazardous.

 >Bill:

 >No one on this List suggested this possibility. Military Flares
 >can be seen for tens of miles.

True.

 >>Lets see now... ultra-lights are flying at night and
 >>launching flares...

 >Nobody here ever mentioned this, either.

I mentioned it just to be ornery. There were from 20 to 25
amber-colored lights in the air according to one witness. These
amber lights seem similar to the ones we videotaped in
Awahtukee, near Phoenix on March 13, 1997. Those lights were NOT
flares. I had a good view of them through a Celestron telescope
with a 25x eyepiece and a 90 mm objective. Each individual amber
light appeared pefectly round, pulsated, and had no surrounding
aureola or glare. Mike Kryzston saw the same view through is
telescope from North Mountain. From the witness testimony I
believe the Carteret, New Jersey Sighting was similar.

 >>hmmm, I would rather believe in flying saucers and the tooth fairy.

 >Before the possibility that an unlicensed pilot would play a
 >joke on you?

Maybe and maybe not. These lights were holding a "V" formation
according to witnesses. I highly doubt flares or ultralights.
Light planes? According to a witness, "No sound. Now there were
people like yelling in amazement." Maybe they couldn't hear the
motors over the yells.

 >>I think that the joke may be on the believers, Bill.

I don't have a belief one way or another. As for the witnesses,
perhaps some were what you call believers and others were not.


I try to leave belief out of it and gather the facts first
before hypothesizing. It seems like your belief is that if
something unusual is seen in the sky, it must have a prosaic
explanation. Have you ever found any sighting that you could not
explain?

Bill








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                 Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 10 Aug 2001 10:56:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:31:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Hamilton


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 15:22:14 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Date: 7 Aug 2001 06:47:57 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'

 >>>Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:31:54 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>>Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 16:34:00 -0700

 >>><snip>

 >>>What if the Roswell story falls, as I believe is in
 >>>the process of happening?

 >>It won't happen becaue of Pflock's book. Read some paragraphs
 >>from it in the bookstore on Friday. Same old Mogul balloon
 >>hypothesis (not a certainty at all). He critisizes testimony
 >>that doesn't agree with his conclusions and supports testimony
 >>he believes does.

 >Bill,

 >How is it that there is _any_ testimony in Pflock's book that
 >conflicts with his conclusions? Why does he let that stuff in
 >there?

He gives little space to anomalous descriptions. Have you read
June Crain's testimony? She saw the material at Wright-Patterson.
Her testimony about shape memory and uncuttable metal is similar
to other testimony. I don't think Karl gave such testimony
much attention.

 >>Then why are the images of the debris in Ramey's office photos
 >>not consistent with that of a Mogul balloon. Why does Sheridan
 >>Cavitt still stick to the weather balloon story?

 >>No, I think Pflock's book will just follow Kal Korff's book to
 >>the graveyard of unsold books.

 >I think you're wrong. I'll have more on this soon.

OK, Brad, so you say. However, why is it the Mogul staff had no
concern for the recovery of the physical materials. Where they
floated off to did not seem to interest the Mogul personnel.
Flight 8 was aloft about 3 hours before touching down about 20
miles from the base and nothing from this flight was recovered.
Only 20 miles away and no one bothered to pick it up. There are
other reasons why the Mogul explanation fails and if this is
proven, then Karl's book is so much waste paper.


-Bill








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                          Secrecy News -- 08/10/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@igc.org>
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 09:29:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:33:40 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/10/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
August 10, 2001

**OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT LOOMS AGAIN
**"SUPPRESSED" FRUS VOLUME PUBLISHED
**PLUTONIUM DISPOSITION REPORT LEAKED
**IN-Q-TEL LOOKS PROMISING -- BUT CIA NEEDS WORK
**STATE DEPT ACQUIRES KISSINGER TELCONS
**BOSNIA WAR CRIME DATA WITHHELD


OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT LOOMS AGAIN

The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence is preparing to
revive the very same proposal to criminalize unauthorized
disclosures of classified information that led to the veto of
the last year's intelligence authorization bill.

The legislation, propelled by Sen. Richard Shelby, would make
the knowing and willful disclosure of classified information to
an unauthorized person a felony.

In vetoing the measure last November 4, President Clinton called
it "badly flawed" and said it could have a "chilling effect,"
limiting the participation of government officials "even in
appropriate public discussion, press briefings, or other
legitimate official activities."

Evidently having learned nothing, the Committee is poised to
reintroduce the very same proposal in next month's markup of the
Intelligence Authorization Act for FY 2002. A hearing on the
matter, featuring government and press witnesses, is scheduled
for September 5.

In a report published last week the Intelligence Committee
reviews its activities during the 106th Congress (1999-2000).
The report provides some new information on the Committee's
diverse activities, including a defense of its attempts to
criminalize disclosures of classified information.

 From the point of view of public accountability, the Senate
Intelligence Committee in the 106th Congress was perhaps the
worst in the history of intelligence oversight.

An unusually small fraction of the Committee's hearings were
open to the public. Likewise, a sharply diminished number of
non-governmental witnesses were invited to testify before the
Committee. Under then-Chairman Shelby, the Committee
increasingly became an adjunct of the intelligence community
rather than in any sense a representative of the public.

The new Senate Intelligence Committee report (S. Rep. 107-51),
dated August 3, may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2001_rpt/srep107-51.html


"SUPPRESSED" FRUS VOLUME PUBLISHED

On Wednesday, the State Department formally released the Foreign
Relations of the United States (FRUS) volume on Indonesia that
had been withheld because of concern at the CIA and the State
Department that it could upset relations with the Indonesian
government.

The new release was utterly anticlimactic due to the fact that
an advance copy of the volume was published last month by the
National Security Archive.

Although the earlier release elicited some slight press interest
in Indonesia, it created no controversy to speak of. No
ambassadors were withdrawn, no censures were issued, no riots
ensued.

"The fact that this is a ho-hum issue in Indonesia really makes
us look like idiots," said one government official who
participated in the process.

The text of the new volume and an accompanying release may be
found here:

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/johnsonlb/xxvi/

Another completed FRUS volume whose release has been deferred
due to its purported political sensitivity addresses U.S.
foreign policy toward Cyprus, Greece, and Turkey during
1964-1968. While eventual release of that volume is
"inevitable," an official said, no release date has been set.


PLUTONIUM DISPOSITION REPORT LEAKED

An internal Department of Energy report reveals that the cost of
disposing of weapons grade plutonium by converting it to mixed
oxide (MOX) reactor fuel is far higher than previously
estimated, calling this disposal approach into question.

The DOE report was never provided to Congress, despite a
mandatory February 2001 due date. But a copy was obtained by
the Nuclear Control Institute, a non-proliferation research and
advocacy organization, which posted the report on its web site
yesterday.

"We find it contrary to the will of Congress and harmful to the
discussion over the fate of surplus plutonium that DOE has
withheld release of this report which was required by law," said
Tom Clements, Executive Director of the Nuclear Control
Institute (NCI).

NCI argues that "immobilization" of surplus plutonium by
rendering it into ceramic form, for example, would be a superior
alternative to consuming it as MOX reactor fuel. The new report
confirms that immobilization would be the cheaper alternative.
But DOE recently canceled its immobilization research and
development program.

"It's no mystery why DOE wouldn't want Congress to see this
report as it points to the conclusion that immobilization is
cheaper than MOX," said Clements. "Instead of abandoning this
promising technology at a critical stage DOE should reverse
course and give immobilization its full support."

The internal DOE report and related information may be found on
the NCI web site here:

http://www.nci.org/


IN-Q-TEL LOOKS PROMISING -- BUT CIA NEEDS WORK

In-Q-Tel, the venture capital enterprise established by the CIA
in 1999 to facilitate the introduction of new technologies into
the aging intelligence bureaucracy, is off to a promising start,
according to a new assessment by a group of corporate
executives. But the CIA is ill-equipped to take advantage of
its contributions.

"In-Q-Tel has achieved significant early progress," the report
by Business Executives for National Security (BENS) stated.

"To date, In-Q-Tel has reviewed hundreds of business plans, made
more than a dozen investments, brought five technologies and
services to the Agency for use or demonstration, and has
implemented three pilots since its charter was signed in July
1999. By private sector standards, this represents a noteworthy
accomplishment and the start of a good track record."

At the same time, however, "the CIA has been unprepared ... to
integrate the solutions In-Q-Tel delivers." A host of
technological, security and other barriers the authors found at
the CIA pose fundamental challenges to the In-Q-Tel initiative.

"The Report of the Independent Panel on the CIA In-Q-Tel
Venture," released on August 7, may be found on the BENS web
site here:

http://www.bens.org/highlights_InQTel.html


STATE DEPT ACQUIRES KISSINGER TELCONS

Former Secretary of State Henry A. Kissinger has provided the
Department of State with 10,000 pages of documents from his
years as Secretary, the State Department announced yesterday.

The newly acquired documents are transcriptions of official
telephone conversations (telcons) that Kissinger had between
1973 and 1976. Until last week, these transcripts were held in
a closed collection at the Library of Congress, much to the
annoyance and frustration of historians and students of American
foreign policy.

The National Security Archive, which pressed for the move,
presents further information about it here:

http://www.nsarchive.org/news/20010809/


BOSNIA WAR CRIME DATA WITHHELD

A federal appeals court this week rejected a Freedom of
Information Act lawsuit seeking disclosure of intelligence
imagery and other records concerning human rights violations
committed by Bosnian Serb forces during the summer of 1995.

A human rights organization called Students Against Genocide
(SAGE) had requested copies of satellite and aerial images of
mass graves that were displayed by Secretary of State Albright
to the UN Security Council in 1995. Some of the photos were
subsequently released. On appeal, SAGE sought release of other
images and documentation that were withheld.

The court rejected almost all of the appellant's arguments. The
fact that some photos had been released did not mean that all of
them could be, the court ruled. Just because the Secretary of
State had revealed the images to foreign governments at the UN
did not mean that they could be disclosed to the general public.
Further, the government had no obligation to prepare a
releasable version of the intelligence photos by degrading their
resolution, the court said.

The August 7 ruling is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/08/sage.html

Some previously released Bosnia imagery may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/bosnia.htm


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@fas.org> with this
command in the body of the message:
     subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:
     http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691








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              Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 17:01:02 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 15:53:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Mortellaro


 >Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 16:31:19 -0300
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 16:45:27 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 20:39:54 -0300
 >>>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

 >>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>>>Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 08:42:19 -0500

 >>>>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>>>Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:56:55 EDT
 >>>>>Subject: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>>A letter from this past Sunday's Star Ledger (NJ) may shed
 >>>>>some real light on the July 14-15 mystery lights:

 >>>His ignorance about the FARS [FAA regulations] governing
 >>>ultra-lite flights leaves a lot to be desired as well.

 >>Why don't you enlighten us?

 >>Please list the FAA regulations which would be violated by
 >>somebody flying an ultralight in the dark, showing lights, for
 >>future reference.

 >>Please give specific examples where I have revealed my ignorance
 >>of such rules and I won't do it again.

 >Ultra-lite pilots are greatly restricted without an FAA approved
 >flying license and are not allowed to fly in the dark because
 >you cannot fly at night without an endorsement on your flying
 >license, even as a private pilot.

 >Ultra-lite pilots do not enjoy the freedom of the skies that a
 >private ticket allows. Most ultra-lite pilots do not have a
 >private pilots license. They fly on a very restricted license.

 >Most aren't allowed to fly when the winds are over 8 knots. Most
 >ultra-lites don't have electrics, though some of them are
 >getting more sophisticated than the older types.

 >If you get a group of ultra-lite pilots with only an ultra-lite
 >license flying together at night you have an extremely dangerous
 >and highly illegal situation, Bob - particularly in the New York
 >TRACON. If the FAA suspected for a moment that ultra-lites had
 >been responsible for those lights over New Jersey I guarentee
 >you there would be a full blown and likely highly publicized
 >investigation going on right now. The fact that you've heard boo
 >should tell you something.

Hello, Don, All, Al, Errol,

Now if I were a conspiracy theorist AND a skeptibunker, which I
am neither, I would suggest... actually I would insist if I were
both of those types... I would insist that:

There were no UFO's, just the ultralights
The pilots were military professionals
The reason for doing the deed is to make the public look silly
Another reason for doing it is to debunk UFO nin com poops
Or some such.

 >Don't feel bad, most laypersons

Please, Don. My sex life has nothing to do with this.

 >don't know anything about flying
 >and get their general knowledge of aviation from TV and the
 >movies and the latters lack of aviation knowledge - in most
 >cases - is deplorable. You'd be hard pressed to find one movie
 >using flying as a plot or sub-plot that took the time to bother
 >learning anything about the craft.

 >Start with Top Gun and work your way down to Sky King. It's
 >mostly all nonsense, though like the old Sci-fi pulps got many
 >astronomers and space techs started many of these old flying
 >movies got many pilots to the flying clubs.

I used to love to hear that Beech on the radio intro to Sky
King. Vrooooom!

Say, do you also remember, "Captaaaaaain Video. And his
Spaaaaaace Cadets." I actually remember when his one
dimensional paper microphone, the one he used to communicate
with his spaaaaaaace cadets.... fell over flat on his desk. If
memory serves, it was 1950 on the old Dumont Network.

(sigh)

 >Don Ledger

Old Morty









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   Aug > Aug 11

                  Re: Gerald Anderson A Seal? - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 17:15:14 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 15:56:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Gerald Anderson A Seal? - Mortellaro


 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Gerald Anderson A Seal?
 >Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 12:34:05 -0500


 >List,

 >Interesting front page article in today's NY Times about people
 >who fake their military experiences.

 >Seems to be increasingly commonplace.

 >See

 >http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/10/national/10FAKE.html

 >and

 >http://cyberseals.org/wos.htm

 >Dennis Stacy

Dear List, Dennis, Errol,

As a result of the meanness and cruelty of Mr. Stacy, the man
who ruined Dallas forever, I must come forward and confess the
lie I have lived since publishing my life story on my web site.
I am truly sorry and wish to apologize to my wives and other
assorted women for their embarrassments.

I did not serve in Nam. I did not earn the Congressional Medal
of Honor. I was not wounded during the festiviti... uh, in
battle. I, like my brother in law (the _other_ hero) served
during the war, in Fort Dicks... Dix, sorry. I was not a war
hero. However, I was able to establish a record for the most
number of AWL's in the history of Dix.

Stacey, you could sperl a nocturnal omission. You know that
Bubba?


Mort








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                  Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:55:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 15:58:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Stacy


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: 10 Aug 2001 10:56:27 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'

<snip>

 >OK, Brad, so you say. However, why is it the Mogul staff had no
 >concern for the recovery of the physical materials. Where they
 >floated off to did not seem to interest the Mogul personnel.
 >Flight 8 was aloft about 3 hours before touching down about 20
 >miles from the base and nothing from this flight was recovered.
 >Only 20 miles away and no one bothered to pick it up. There are
 >other reasons why the Mogul explanation fails and if this is
 >proven, then Karl's book is so much waste paper.


Bill,

Go back and look at a population density map for New Mexico in
1947. No one ever expected that Mogul - or much other debris -
would ever be encountered by humans. That's why they (and
others) did the stuff where they did it. They expected the
landscape itself to absorb most of the evidence.

Why do you think Los Alamos and the 509th Bomb Group were
located where they were in the first place?

As for 20 miles with roads and 20 miles without roads, there is
a world of difference. One reason why, I suspect, the Hub Corn
ranch has "caught on" as the location of the "official" crash
site: you can easily get there by car from Roswell, $15 or so
per vehicle.

What if it weren't so easy? What if you couldn't necessarily get
there from here? Do you forge your own roads?

I can take you to a ranch in West Texas and tell you that a pot
of gold is "only" 20 miles away somewhere to the northwest.

And go to sleep perfectly content that you won't stumble across
it in this century or the next, using only available 1947
technology.

No one bothered to pick up the debris from Flight 8, even though
it was only 20 miles away, because no one needed to or thought
it necessary. Had it come down at a highway intersection, that
might have been another matter. But it didn't. It came down in a
remote area where it could be conveniently ignored - and
allowed to deteriorate over time.

And so did the Foster ranch episode occur - until Brazel
inadvertently stumbled across it.

_That's_ what initiated the recovery and cover up, not any
built-in retrieval policy on the part of Project Mogul.


Dennis Stacy








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   Aug > Aug 11

                 Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:27:23 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 16:01:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - McCoy


 >Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 16:31:19 -0300
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 16:45:27 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 20:39:54 -0300
 >>>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

 >>>>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>>>Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:56:55 EDT
 >>>>>Subject: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>>A letter from this past Sunday's Star Ledger (NJ) may shed
 >>>>>some real light on the July 14-15 mystery lights:

 >>>His ignorance about the FARS [FAA regulations] governing
 >>>ultra-lite flights leaves a lot to be desired as well.

 >>Why don't you enlighten us?

 >>Please list the FAA regulations which would be violated by
 >>somebody flying an ultralight in the dark, showing lights, for
 >>future reference.

 >>Please give specific examples where I have revealed my ignorance
 >>of such rules and I won't do it again.

 >Ultra-lite pilots are greatly restricted without an FAA approved
 >flying license and are not allowed to fly in the dark because
 >you cannot fly at night without an endorsement on your flying
 >license, even as a private pilot.

 >Ultra-lite pilots do not enjoy the freedom of the skies that a
 >private ticket allows. Most ultra-lite pilots do not have a
 >private pilots license. They fly on a very restricted license.

 >Most aren't allowed to fly when the winds are over 8 knots. Most
 >ultra-lites don't have electrics, though some of them are
 >getting more sophisticated than the older types.

 >If you get a group of ultra-lite pilots with only an ultra-lite
 >license flying together at night you have an extremely dangerous
 >and highly illegal situation, Bob - particularly in the New York
 >TRACON. If the FAA suspected for a moment that ultra-lites had
 >been responsible for those lights over New Jersey I guarentee
 >you there would be a full blown and likely highly publicized
 >investigation going on right now. The fact that you've heard boo
 >should tell you something.

 >Don't feel bad, most laypersons don't know anything about flying
 >and get their general knowledge of aviation from TV and the
 >movies and the latters lack of aviation knowledge - in most
 >cases - is deplorable. You'd be hard pressed to find one movie
 >using flying as a plot or sub-plot that took the time to bother
 >learning anything about the craft.

 >Start with Top Gun and work your way down to Sky King. It's
 >mostly all nonsense, though like the old Sci-fi pulps got many
 >astronomers and space techs started many of these old flying
 >movies got many pilots to the flying clubs.

Hello, all Don.

What I want to know is Kirby (Sky King) Grant's soft/rough field
technique - especially with the Cessna 310, I've got enough time
in 300 seires Cessna's to know they aren't rough field machines.

Any way, I invite those who want to seach the net on
ultralights, and find that they are limited machines with
limited pilots. There are some who fall into the experimental
category by nature of gross weight and perfomance, yet again ,
you are taking an incaluable risk flying at, night in formation
over any urban area.

I've been to Phoenix , Sky Harbor, is busy with Airliners, Small
Jets, and in the summer (I like to meet the genius who thought
of putting a tanker base at Sky Harbor.) Retardant Tankers. To
bring the Phoenix lights into this, I was there some 3-4 months
after they occurred. I can honestly tell all of you, that any
foolish behavior on the part of military, or civilian aircraft,
such as dropping flares, using spotlights, etc, could/would
meet in disaster. Let alone the 2:23 from Trafamador.


GT McCoy









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   Aug > Aug 11

                 Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 22:46:53 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 16:04:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Young


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: 10 Aug 2001 10:44:18 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 07:31:43 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>Date: 8 Aug 2001 09:04:39 -0700
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

<snip>

 >These lights were holding a "V" formation
 >according to witnesses.

Not according to all witnesses. At least one described several
"V"s and others scattered around.

 >I don't have a belief one way or another. As for the witnesses,
 >perhaps some were what you call believers and others were not.

Yes, that's always a possiblity. Especially the woman who was
convinced that she had seen a miracle.

<snip>

 >It seems like your belief is that if something unusual is seen
 >in the sky, it must have a prosaic explanation.

Yeees... That's a reasonable way to start. Good Lord, Bill, if
you didn't do that you would have Flying Saucers everywhere.

 >Have you ever found any sighting that you could not
 >explain?

Sure, Kenneth Arnold's. Actually, I haven't decided yet,
whether it was a meteor, birds or a mirage (a long-time favorite
of mine and old Doc Menzel). I just keep trying.

The difference between my approach and yours is that you assume
that every little light in the sky that the witnesses can't
identify must be a UFO, where I assume that the witness just
doesn't recognize what they're looking toward. See, then you can
start with a list like, Planets, Stars, airplanes, etc.

Your list seems to start with, UFOs, spaceships, etc.


Clear skies,

Bob Young








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   Aug > Aug 11

                  Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 04:24:41 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 16:07:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sparks


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: 10 Aug 2001 10:56:27 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'


 >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 15:22:14 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Date: 7 Aug 2001 06:47:57 -0700
 >>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'

 >>>>Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:31:54 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>>>Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 16:34:00 -0700

 >>>><snip>

 >>>>What if the Roswell story falls, as I believe is in
 >>>>the process of happening?

 >>>It won't happen becaue of Pflock's book. Read some paragraphs
 >>>from it in the bookstore on Friday. Same old Mogul balloon
 >>>hypothesis (not a certainty at all). He critisizes testimony
 >>>that doesn't agree with his conclusions and supports testimony
 >>>he believes does.

 >>Bill,

 >>How is it that there is _any_ testimony in Pflock's book that
 >>conflicts with his conclusions? Why does he let that stuff in
 >>there?

 >He gives little space to anomalous descriptions. Have you read
 >June Crain's testimony? She saw the material at Wright-Patterson.
 >Her testimony about shape memory and uncuttable metal is similar
 >to other testimony. I don't think Karl gave such testimony
 >much attention.

Hi Bill,

I think you're being very unfair to Pflock. He has an entire
25-page chapter on the descriptions and identifications of the
Roswell debris and further discussion and quotes throughout the
book, plus an extremely valuable 50 pages of verbatim
transcripts and affidavits from Marcel and others filled with
descriptions of the Roswell material. So what are you saying,
that he should have written an entire book on _Roswell Debris_?
Then what happens to all the other aspects of Roswell, the Frank
Kaufmann and Glenn Dennis, Ragsdale and other stories, the
bodies, the recovery operations, etc. etc.????

He goes into great detail on "anomalous descriptions" or are you
just relying on the distorted and error-filled review instead of
reading the book?

Isn't the June Crain story something just recently surfaced by
the Woods? If her story is admittedly "similar" to other
accounts, which Karl covers in his book, then nothing has been
missed as far as descriptions are concerned. There had to be a
cutoff point somewhere in finishing the book otherwise it'd
never get published.

 >>>Then why are the images of the debris in Ramey's office photos
 >>>not consistent with that of a Mogul balloon. Why does Sheridan
 >>>Cavitt still stick to the weather balloon story?

 >>>No, I think Pflock's book will just follow Kal Korff's book to
 >>>the graveyard of unsold books.

 >>I think you're wrong. I'll have more on this soon.

 >OK, Brad, so you say. However, why is it the Mogul staff had no
 >concern for the recovery of the physical materials. Where they
 >floated off to did not seem to interest the Mogul personnel.
 >Flight 8 was aloft about 3 hours before touching down about 20
 >miles from the base and nothing from this flight was recovered.
 >Only 20 miles away and no one bothered to pick it up.

You're just getting this from the book review. What does this
have to do with the Mogul explanation? It has _nothing_ to do
with it. It has to do with the Mogul _coverup_ claim not the
explanation for the debris. You and others keep driving this
fanatical either/or situation -- it has to be either Mogul or an
anomaly/spaceship and you can't seem to consider the possibility
of both.

 >There are
 >other reasons why the Mogul explanation fails and if this is
 >proven, then Karl's book is so much waste paper.

It will certainly not be "so much waste paper." How ironic that
one of the great contributions possibly even a breakthrough in
Roswell research is treated so shabbily and Karl Pflock
condemned and treated as an enemy to be destroyed. Read my long
post on this coming soon, assuming I'm not vilified and damned
to hell beforehand. I predict no one will be happy with it from
either side.


Brad









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                  Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 09:48:29 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 16:27:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sparks


 >From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 12:18:20 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com


 >>Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 13:46:03 -0700 (PDT)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>To: UfoUpdates <ufoupdates@home.com>


 >>ROSWELL: Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe

 >>by Karl Pflock

 >>reviewed by Mac Tonnies

 >To Mark Tonnies and the List

 >Before you fall completely in the "skeptic's corner" on Roswell,
 >at least read the brillant critic of the book made
 >by Robert Durant, just published in the review of Cufos,

Good points but hardly "brilliant," it is intermixed with huge
errors and it is very poorly documented considering the 12
"dense" pages it takes up in IUR, not citing a single page
number of Pflock's book, thus forcing the reader to waste time
having to go through the entire book in many cases to find the
quotes and obscure references - fortunately Karl's book has an
index, which helps. The critique regrettably delves into really
needless personal jabs without any appreciation for the great
work that Karl Pflock has done in giving us his unique
perspective of once being pro-Roswell and now anti-Roswell but
still pro-UFO, where he presents both the pro-UFO evidence as
well as the anti-Roswell evidence - however imperfectly and
subject to criticism and however much we may disagree with
Karl's conclusions based on this evidence.

Durant presents point after point of pro-UFO anomalous evidence
straight out of Pflock's book without any consciousness of the
irony involved in him doing so from the work he describes as
following certain infamous "forebears in debunking," and only in
the very last paragraph does he make a grudging acknowledgment
of the irony. (See partial list of pro-UFO or pro-Roswell
evidence in Pflock's book below.)

Pro-UFO evidence quoted or cited from Pflock's book by Durant
(with pages numbers from Pflock's book supplied by me, not given
by Durant):

1. Unusual properties of recovered material ("would not tear,"
"would not burn," "too strong to break," "resisted being cut,"
etc.). (pp. 152-3)

2. CIC/OSI agent Lewis Rickett reportedly handled a "very thin,
very light sheet material which 'looked like metal,' was about
two feet square and slightly curved, and which he could not
bend, even with great effort." (p. 153)

(This report seems to be the origin of unbelievable hearsay
claim by Marcel that some unnamed military man tried to
sledgehammer a large piece and couldn't damage it.)

3. Testimony of Gen Swancutt and newspaper editor McQuiddy that
Blanchard confided to them privately that something very unusual
and significant had been found at Roswell. (p. 96)

4. Testimony of various CIC/OSI agents on something unusual
being covered up.

5. William Woody's account of a military roadblock of the road
north of Roswell.

Again, these are just the points of pro-UFO evidence that
_Durant_ quotes or cites from Pflock's book. There is much much
more pro-UFO data in Pflock's book besides this and I can only
touch on some of it here.

Although Pflock reaches negative conclusions on Roswell - as I
would have a little over a year ago having been a Roswell
skeptic since 1978 - he does have an escape hatch on p. 211 n.
12:

   "... quiet work independent of RPIT is underway, with very
   preliminary results demonstrating that RPIT's
   'interpretations' definitely are off the mark, but that
   something interesting and perhaps surprising may be teased out
   of the Ramey message."

So "something interesting and perhaps surprising" may still come
out of the Roswell case according to Pflock, and unbeknownst to
Durant.

Pflock's book is an excellent work of scholarship, one of the
traits of true scholarship being that the fair presentation of
evidence on both sides allows one to independently sift through
the evidence and arrive at different conclusions. Yes, Karl
missed a few pro-Roswell points and understated things here and
there (as I will point out), but he also presented tremendously
important pro-UFO evidence that something unusual really did
happen at Roswell in 1947 which if he was the diabolical
debunker as he is being portrayed he could easily have
suppressed.

For example, Karl presents the extremely provocative testimony
of several AFOSI/CIC agents through an investigation he
undertook with the Association of Former OSI Special Agents (pp.
113-7). He concludes that there is "less than meets the eye"
here because of memory problems or errors but I look at the
evidence from agents Zimmerman, Bethart, O'Brien and Miller and
I find it quite disturbing and not subject to dismissal. The
facts and reasoning Karl uses to reject the testimony of
Zimmerman and Maj. O'Brien are flatly in error factually and
logically, the green fireball investigation is grossly
misrepresented, and thus the testimony about Lincoln LaPaz's
reported involvement in investigating Roswell in 1947 remains
intact, to say nothing of the fact it correlates with other data
I cannot discuss at present.

If the world renowned meteoriticist Lincoln LaPaz investigated
Roswell in 1947 then that is tremendously disturbing for us
Roswell skeptics. He was then, in effect, the world's leading
UFO investigator from his decades of meteor fireball
investigations, which honed his mathematician skills in deriving
solar orbits of meteors and triangulating impact sites for
recovering meteorites by interviewing witnesses - those hated
numbskulls always derided by debunkers, yet somehow LaPaz
usually got accurate enough data to actually find meteorites
from it, even though it was like looking for a needle in a
haystack. He developed the ability to evaluate eyewitness
testimony and determine what was the most accurate, what was
less accurate and what was worthless.

Now think about what that means, think real hard, especially the
part about "deriving solar orbits." If, and I admit it is a big
"if," if the government _thought_ there was a crash or explosion
of a vehicle or maybe to generalize this a bit, a "something"
from outer space and it had no way to determine its origin from
what mundane evidence it may or may not have had in hand, who
could possibly be able to determine the point of origin in outer
space from other data, from eyewitness data? Who had the unique
skills to extract the requisite data by interrogation?

Do you suppose that in 1947 someone in authority at the AAF who
knew LaPaz, who by the way had a TOP SECRET clearance with the
Army/AAF, might have thought it was just possible that LaPaz
could reconstruct a solar orbit for a UFO or flying disc if he
got sufficient data? Never mind whether today in 2001 that might
seem silly or impossible because we think of interstellar flight
rather than interplanetary now, the question is whether someone
in the military _back then_ in 1947 might have _thought_ this
was a good idea based on what they knew of LaPaz's peculiar
specialty of calculating meteor orbits from eyewitness data. It
is irrelevant whether LaPaz succeeded or not, I'm only talking
about whether he might have been brought in for this.

Who on earth at that time would have been a _better_ expert than
LaPaz in taking eyewitness data and tracing back trajectories to
points of origin literally in outer space? No one! Certainly not
solar astrophysicist Menzel who despised laymen eyewitnesses and
probably never did a bit of meteorite hunting in his life (no
doubt that can be checked). Who would already have the necessary
security clearances? Who was already located in New Mexico? Who
was already known to AAF and security agencies in New Mexico?
Who is known to have been in the Corona, N.M., area on July 10,
1947?

We know where LaPaz was at 4:47 in the afternoon of Thursday,
July 10, 1947, two days after the Roswell story burst into the
world news: He was driving on a road or highway north of Corona,
a long way from home in Albuquerque! He said he and his family
were driving from Clovis to Clines Corners when they sighted a
Daylight Disc UFO - not a green fireball at night, but a real
honest-to-goodness UFO, high speed and highly maneuverable. He
doesn't say what highways or roads or possible detours he might
have taken along the way from Clovis to Clines Corners and
strangely omits giving his actual location at the time of the
sighting which is extremely bizarre for the careful scientist
LaPaz was - it suggests he was unwilling to reveal his exact
location for some reason. It's the only defect in an otherwise
scientifically precise, airtight UFO case, one of the best cases
of all time. No explanation what they were doing in Clovis in
the middle of the week 6 days after the 4th of July holiday -
just the one word "vacationing" would suffice but it's not
mentioned.

News reports place LaPaz in Oklahoma when the Roswell story
broke on July 8, as he was traveling around doing meteorite
hunting. The main highway leading from Oklahoma directly to
LaPaz's home in Albuquerque was almost a straight line running
east-west (look on a map) in 1947 and this was the famous Route
66. But Clovis was way off Route 66 to the south. Why did LaPaz
detour to Clovis from a straightline back home with a car packed
with wife and kids?

Why did LaPaz pick these _two_ towns, Clovis and Clines Corners,
over 150 road miles apart instead of specifying his actual
location at the sighting, just the name of _one_ town and his
distance? Why didn't he take the most direct route back to Route
66 from Clovis, which would be to go through Ft. Sumner then
rejoin Route 66 near Santa Rosa - a full 50 miles before he
would have gotten to Clines Corners? In that case he would have
said he was driving from Clovis to Santa Rosa, not Clovis to
Clines Corners. (See the 1947 map in Pflock's book endpapers.
This makes more sense when one studies it carefully on a map as
if you're planning the trip as your own.)

Why on earth did LaPaz take this 100-mile detour in the first
place, going straight southwest apparently from Amarillo, Tex.,
directly into Clovis, N.M., from Route 66? Another 100 miles or
so in the _same_ southwest direction on a straight-line road,
Hwy 70, takes you from Clovis directly into - ROSWELL. Here
seems to be the reason for choosing Clovis: By going through
Clovis he would save almost 80 miles of travel to get to
Roswell, instead of continuing on Route 66 then going directly
south from a turnoff near Santa Rosa.

If LaPaz had indeed taken a detour to Roswell then Hwy 285 takes
him most conveniently back to Route 66 and the junction would
then have to be Clines Corners rather than Santa Rosa (once
again saving nearly 50 miles' travel this time). This is the
most direct Roswell detour route off of Route 66, and Clovis and
Clines Corners are the most logical _New Mexico_ takeoff points
for a Roswell detour, saving more than 120 miles total. Had
LaPaz said he was driving from a place in Texas (Amarillo) to a
place in New Mexico (Clines Corners) it might have drawn
attention to the fact that he was obviously withholding the
exact location for some reason.

And Hwy 285 of course is the road one has to take to get to the
Brazel debris field, and it's the scene of reported military
roadblocks. (Pflock pp. 27, 44, 60, etc.)

It is possible that LaPaz belatedly used a family vacation trip
and meteorite hunt as a cover for Roswell-related interviewing -
clearly he took his family along for meteorite hunting at least
(what kind of "vacation" [my word] could that be anyway, taking
a entire family of four out into the Texas Panhandle in the
blistering heat of July?). LaPaz might have decided to contact
the military while on this trip to Oklahoma on unrelated
business and offer his assistance, after he was contacted by
reporters about the flying discs sightings in the news. Maybe a
detour to Roswell was suggested to him. Maybe he suggested it.

Or LaPaz might have been brought in by the military _initially_
without a thought of trajectories but merely to canvass
neighboring communities to find out how much eyewitnesses may
have seen since he was known to be good at doing that (and might
be less obtrusive than stiff-necked GI's who would scare people
and attract too much attention, whereas LaPaz was reportedly
quite accustomed to giving out cover stories, such as
"investigating an aircraft accident," Pflock p. 113, or perhaps
a "meteorite hunt"). LaPaz may have then been the one to suggest
to the military that if he could get sufficient witness data to
determine a velocity and a direction (radiant) he might be able
to project a trajectory out into space. Either way.

Even the now skeptical Karl is forced to admit it is "possible"
LaPaz was involved in the Roswell investigation (p. 113).

Sure, this isn't _proof_ that LaPaz went to Roswell but his odd
statement giving a 150-mile Clovis-Clines Corners _route_
instead of giving his exact sighting location on July 10, 1947,
is unaccountable for this meticulously detailed scientist, very
suspicious, and fits the logical travel route for a detour to
Roswell that is concealed between the Clovis-Clines Corners
place names - and he certainly had to pass close to Corona by
any interpretation. The fact he kept this daylight UFO sighting
so private for so long, never bringing it up in the course of
his green fireball investigations and reports about which he was
so outspoken - in contrast to his silence about the UFO which
was revealed only reluctantly and anonymously - is indicative of
hiding something more than just a sighting.

I plotted the trajectory of a Roswell UFO back into outer space
using the most detailed sighting data available, the Wilmots'
sighting of July 2, 1947, with the SE-NW path. No one else has
ever done this before so far as we know unless LaPaz did it. A
horizontal flight path projects back to somewhere near the
constellation Capricorn in outer space, at very roughly 21 hrs
(RA) -30� (Dec), the most important point of which is that it is
reasonably and surprisingly close to the ecliptic, the plane of
the earth's orbit around the sun as well as the plane of most of
the planets in our solar system, and the error margins are large
enough it might actually be right on the ecliptic. It's a bit
surprising because if it was just random it could come from any
direction. If LaPaz discovered this in 1947 it might have
suggested either a natural phenomenon such as a meteor or
possibly the flight path of an interplanetary vehicle which of
course would most likely come from the direction of a planet on
the ecliptic plane. Hmmmm. Just trying to reconstruct what LaPaz
might have discovered if he had tried to derive an orbital
trajectory from the Roswell events, and what he might have told
authorities. No one else has ever reconstructed this.

The very fact that I can make my independent evaluation of this
evidence is a tribute to the great job Karl has done of fairly
presenting the evidence here. Again, if Karl Pflock was the evil
debunker why did he spend 5 pages presenting this OSI/CIC
evidence which he could just simply have omitted and no one
would have been the wiser - least of all Durant who doesn't even
mention it and misses its significance? (Among other things, the
testimony of the AFOSI/CIC agents is in a different class
because they were responsible for plugging security leaks and
enforcing security, hence anything they reveal is going to be
reluctantly given up, as witness the continuing facile lies from
Cavitt 47 years after the fact.)

Durant sets up an erroneous strawman right at the outset. He
claims that Pflock's "Mogul thesis" in summary form begins as
follows:

   "Mogul was so exotic in construction that Marcel and Blanchard
   concluded its debris was extraterrestrial."

Huh? Where is THAT anywhere in Pflock's book? As far as I can
tell according to Pflock (p. 96) there is one report from
Blanchard's first wife that he thought the material might be
"Russian." Nothing about ET's. But Durant goes on with his
caricature of Pflock's thesis:

   "Blanchard, in a paroxysm typical of his 'loose cannon'
   personality, ordered a press release claiming his staff found
   an extraterrestrial device."

Huh? Are we on the same planet? Is this the "brilliant" critique
or one so dulled it blacks out the facts?

I cannot find anywhere that Karl claims Blanchard's alleged
"loose cannon" attitude led him to jump to an _ET_ conclusion,
but as usual Durant gives no page number references. I will get
to Durant's valid criticisms further on, particularly about the
Mogul thesis that security was required to cover up the Mogul
debris found.

Durant next complains that "the logical way to write a book
about Roswell" would begin by making a "very careful comparison
of the materials comprising the Mogul arrays with the testimony
of witnesses who handled the 'flying disk' materials" but that
"Unfortunately, Pflock does not take this clear path."

Huh? He doesn't? From about pages 159 to 167, or over some 8
pages or so, Karl does just that - makes careful comparisons of
the Mogul components with the witnesses' reports. And he does
this after separately discussing the various Mogul
configurations from about pages 147 to 149 and again from 155 to
157, and then separately discussing the UFO witnesses' testimony
on pages 152 to 154, before combining and comparing the two sets
of data, which seems eminently fair if not a bit redundant.
Others complain that Karl supposedly doesn't discuss it enough!
Pflock also refers to his plates showing photos, diagrams and
drawings of the Mogul arrays and components. Now, we can
certainly criticize Pflock's presentation for incompleteness and
errors. (For example, he completely mangles Bessie Brazel's
descriptions, consistently withholding her references to a
"double-sided" "foil-rubber" material, p. 277, by dissecting the
material into separate foil and rubber - omitting the "rubber"
part in one place, p. 162, even dotting out the words
"rubber-like" from a direct quote on p. 163, and omitting the
"foil-like" part in another, p. 159, when in fact she never
separates the two. But he mitigates this error or distortion by
presenting equivalent testimony from others, see below.) Yet
Pflock certainly did carry out the "logical way to write a book
about Roswell" that Durant wants.

What I find especially odd and disturbing is the impressive
array of evidence that Pflock pulls together, however
incompletely with the mangling of Bessie Brazel's testimony,
(which Durant totally misses) that points consistently to a
"foil-fabric" or "foil-rubber" "double-sided" material being
found. This is especially interesting in light of the discussion
and investigation by Dave Rudiak on possible nanotechnology
fabric-like materials, which he has discussed here on UFO
UpDates recently.

Judging by Pflock's presentation, _no one_ ever reported seeing
or handling a Mogul radar reflector material made of
double-sided "foil-paper" or aluminized paper. Foil-paper was
not an unusual combination at all then or now as it was and is
widely used in chewing gum and cigarette wrappers - an
absolutely indisputable fact of American life in 1947 and in
2001. Foil-paper should have been instantly recognized by
everyone who saw and/or felt the material. The press reports
should have described or quoted witnesses describing a
gum-wrapper-like foil-paper material yet not a single one to my
knowledge mentions any paper backing or metallized paper found
by Brazel. That every single witness quoted by Pflock including
AP reporter Kellahin describes a "foil-fabric" instead of a
Mogul "foil-paper" material is bizarre and unaccountable. (Of
course, "foiled-cloth" material doesn't sound very
spacecraft-like, but that wasn't the only thing unusual found.)

 From Pflock's book, and please note he repeatedly cites or
quotes this testimony, it's not just passed over quickly or
briefly, in fact he takes over half a page quoting Whitmore Jr.
alone (I won't quote it all here of course):

   "Sallye Tadolini described a piece of 'fabric' Bill Brazel
   showed her, which was 'about the thickness of very fine
   kidskin leather and a dull metallic grayish silver' in color."
   (p. 153)

   Whitmore Jr.: "Most of what I found was white, linen-like
   cloth with reflective tinfoil attached to one side.... One of
   the larger pieces of foiled cloth, measuring about 8 by 12
   inches, had writing on the cloth side.... I collected some of
   the foiled-cloth material...."

   (p. 154)

   AP reporter Jason Kellahin "told me he saw 'pieces of silver
   colored fabric, perhaps aluminized cloth." (p. 163)

Despite Pflock quoting literally pages of witness testimony to
unusual material properties in the Roswell debris throughout his
book and repeatedly reciting it to the point of redundancy (AP
reporter Kellahin's description of the material is quoted twice
on the same page, p. 153), and presenting an extremely valuable
collection of 50 pages of witness interview transcripts and
affidavits, Durant makes the incredibly baseless charge that:

   "The refusal to consider anomalistic characteristics in the
   debris explains why throughout the book the witness testimony
   is compressed and paraphrased to the point of distortion."

What the hell else should Karl have done, quoted a full page
each and every time???? No single witness ever gave such lengthy
descriptions of the recovered material that could be so quoted
anyway. Karl quotes over half a page from Walt Whitmore Jr.
which Durant admits, yet still goes on to charge Karl with
"compression and paraphrase to the point of distortion."

Apparently Durant's Exhibit A in the case against Pflock on this
allegedly pervasive "compression and distortion" is the
testimony of OSI/CIC agent Lewis Rickett. But Durant is
completely confused. He apparently doesn't realize that the
passage from Pflock that he considers "compressed and distorted"
is talking about the _foil-like_ material, not the long thin
piece of metal. Two different things.

He thinks Pflock was being unfair because he supposedly failed
to do more than "selectively summarize to the point of obscuring
the testimony" in the transcript of a Rickett interview, where
Rickett states "it can't be plastic ... it just flat feels like
metal, but I said, I never saw a piece of metal that thin, that
you can't bend!" Durant goads the reader, "Compare this with
Pflock's version." Okay.

As I previously quoted, Pflock's book states that Rickett
reportedly handled a "very thin, very light sheet material which
'looked like metal,' was about two feet square and slightly
curved, and which he could not bend, even with great effort."
(p. 153)

Pflock's version has much more scientific detail than Durant's
overly long quote (which I trimmed for reasons of space and
relevancy, omitting nothing pertinent here). Pflock gives the
dimensions ("about two feet square"). Durant does not. Pflock
mentions the slight curvature of the metal. Durant does not.
(The curvature could be suggestive of the hull of a vehicle of
some kind and is obviously of tremendous potential importance,
being the only such report from Roswell known, I think.) Of the
two it's Durant who
"compressed and paraphrased to the point of distortion."


 >the International UFO Reporter (IUR, Spring 2001), under the title ;
 >"Project Mogul. Still a flight of fancy".
 >If you don't know that review, here is the address:
 >Cufos, 2457 West Peterson Avenue, Chicago
 >Illinois 60659.
 >Email: Infocenter@cufos.org
 >Web site: www.cufos.org

 >After carefull reading, I think that the twelve its dense pages
 >expose clearly the sophisticated rethoric used by Karl Pflock.

I don't see any "sophisticated rhetoric." He states the evidence
for both sides and then gives his (negative) evaluation. It's
very unsophisticated, straightforward and commendable. If you
disagree, state your reasons, point out where Karl is in error
or has omitted important evidence, without demonizing him in the
process. But simple courtesy and fairness dictates that you also
give him credit for doing a fair job where he has done so
instead of trying to create a bandwagon against him as if he is
some kind of enemy to be destroyed.


 >I think that Durant has chosen the right angle, which is to
 >focus on the strong witnesses and put aside the weak ones. Of
 >course, Pflock does exactly the opposite, as Durant demonstrates
 >in his article.

How do you determine who are the "strong witnesses"? Are they
simply the ones who agree with your position?

You claim that Durant focuses on strong evidence. But he makes
frivolous arguments about Pflock such as the following,
nitpicking on a quote from Pflock. pp. 154-5:

   "The best we get from Pflock about the Mogul materials is
   this: 'We now know volumes about the activities of the NYU
   balloon-project team in New Mexico and the types of equipment
   and materials they used in their flight arrays, key elements
   of it absolutely unique.' The reader will search in vain for
   an elaboration of his critically important claim of
   'absolutely unique' physical properties. Please, Mr. Pflock!
   Not only unique, but _absolutely_ unique, then not a word of
   explanation, when all those volumes are in the open
   literature, thanks to the Air Force and the Government
   Printing Office."

Oh come now Mr. Durant! Use a little more reading comprehension,
please! Or is this a game where you insist Pflock must use the
exact words "absolutely unique" otherwise you refuse to
recognize it? Here are a few apparently obvious "absolutely
unique" elements of the early Mogul balloon arrays:

1. "Aluminum collars about four inches around" described by
Bessie Brazel (Pflock p. 160) which correspond to the aluminum
rings C. B. Moore's team cut from 3-4-inch tubing and used to
keep the nylon lines from snarling. These would be "absolutely
unique" because Moore's group invented them to solve a problem
with their _unique_ balloon arrays.

2. Flower-imprinted tape on the ML-307B radar reflectors
seemingly added to reinforce the connection between the
foil-paper and the balsa struts in response to the Mogul
project's needs or request (?). (Pflock pp. 161-4) I may be
wrong about whether the tape was added uniquely for Mogul, I do
not have days and weeks to spend researching items like this. No
doubt someone will correct me in the most insulting way
possible.

s3. Bakelite plastic ballasts filled with sand for controlling
the constant level height of the balloon array, an "absolutely
unique" characteristic of the balloon arrays not to be found
anywhere else since no one else was trying to maintain constant
heights for such balloons. (Pflock pp. 153, 160)

4. Metal box possibly used to carry instruments, or the sonobuoy
which would be unique to Mogul. (For some reason Karl does not
cite the testimony to a Thermos-like cylinder which would match
much better with the sonobuoy.)

 >I am afraid that Pflock's rethoric is going to be very effective
 >because he works so well on the weak witnesses,

What "rhetoric"? See above. I don't want to have to repeat myself.

 >such as Gerald
 >Anderson (sorry fo Stan Friedman), Glenn Dennis, Jim Ragsdale
 >(everybody agrees on their weaknes), and Frank Kaufmann (sorry
 >for Kevin Randle). In addition to that, Pflock cleverly puts in
 >doubt the best ones, even erasing the most important points,
 >such as descriptions on the strange debris.

I see no "cleverness" in Pflock's text. It's just
straightforward presentation and reasoning. You make him out to
be some kind of master of deceit who hypnotizes his readers with
dazzling displays of twisted argument and trickery. If anything,
his negative conclusions are quite superficial and almost
unrelated to the material he is evaluating - peel them off like
the hokey-looking film layers on the AA alien eyeballs and paste
over your own conclusions. I would almost suspect Karl wrote it
in this way so that differing conclusions could easily be
reached, maybe even so he could get the book past Prometheus so
they would publish it and later he would be able to quickly
"correct" it.

 >I have not read yet the book of Pflock (you are a fast reader),
 >but many of his arguments are already well known. For instance,
 >when I had a discussion with him in 1995 at the Mufon symposium
 >in Seattle, he told me that Colonel Blanchard was a "loose
 >cannon". He added that Blanchard had become a four star General
 >only because he was protected by General Curtis LeMay. Of course
 >we find these preposterous arguments in the book, as noted by
 >Bob Durant.

I disagree with Karl on Blanchard. It seems totally unbelievable
to me that Blanchard could make Vice Chief of Staff of the USAF
if he had the reputation of a "loose cannon." I reject that
anonymous comment as totally unsubstantiated - substantiation
should come in the form of documented instances of "loose
cannon" behavior by Blanchard. I cannot believe either that
Blanchard authorized the Haut press release on his own authority
without clearing it with Washington first - it was on a subject
of national controversy in the daily news headlines, it's sheer
madness to think he didn't coordinate it with AAF HQ. That
doesn't mean Washington wrote it though changes in wording might
have been made (over the telephone, I don't see it as something
_necessarily_ coordinated by telex).

However, I find Durant's comments on this point poorly argued
and you and he both ignore the fact that Karl contrasted his
negative _opinion_ of Blanchard, from one admittedly anonymous
general, with specific _positive_ supporting evidence from
_named_ testimony by three different people including a _named_
general, Gen. Swancutt, as well as journalist McQuiddy and
Blanchard's first wife, all testifying to Blanchard telling them
in 1947 that there was something very strange at Roswell.

Pflock quotes McQuiddy who said Blanchard told him about Oct-Nov
1947:

   "The stuff I saw, I've never seen anyplace else in my life."
   (Pflock pp. 96, 266-7)

Karl gives no explanation for this troublesome pro-Roswell
testimony and doesn't even try to reject it, he just does his
duty and sets it out for the reader. That seems pretty fair, all
things considered. One could hope for a more coherent handling
of the pro-Roswell evidence scattered throughout Pflock's book,
but hey he got it past Prometheus! That has to be something of
an achievement.

 >The same mecanism of reduction is at work for Major Marcel, who
 >becomes a kind of fool, unable to recognize a cluster of
 >balloons when he sees one.

That's a very good point. No amount of disparagement of Marcel
for exaggerating and falsifying his background can explain away
why he along with Gen. Ramey, Maj. Kirton and everyone else -
backed up by the 1947 FBI telex I discovered in 1979 and the
interviews in the Reuters dispatch - supposedly could not
recognize weather balloons and radar reflectors right from the
start. If anyone had been unfamiliar with radar foil reflectors
then they were not going to think any such Mogul debris was a
spacecraft but an odd kite made out of foil-paper chewing gum
wrappers. Also, I do not believe Newton's 47-year-old testimony
in 1994 claiming that Marcel back in 1947 tried to convince him
there were "alien writings" on the stick debris (p. 162). That
sounds like contaminated testimony and it conflicts with other,
less contaminated testimony from 1978 that Marcel didn't
seriously consider ETH until UFO researchers convinced him it
was a possibility (p. 179).

Another good point Durant makes is that the 2-inch wide plastic
tape with the flowers is nowhere to be seen in the photos of the
debris in Ramey's office, no tape of any kind is seen.

I still have not heard any explanation for the issue raised by Loren Gross as
to how come there is no brown dirt visible all over the Roswell debris from
days or weeks in the desert, especially on the clean white paper backing seen
in the photos in Ramey's office. (The fact that foil-paper is apparently
never described by the witnesses but rather foil-cloth, as well as the
apparent cleanness of the photographed debris and lack of any tape, supports
the idea of some kind of a "switch" of the debris in Ramey's office -
Brazel's dirty desert debris being substituted in whole or in part with a
cleaner batch of debris from some other source.)

 >Why was he praised so much, before and after Roswell, by Colonel
 >Blanchard and General Ramey? (Perhaps Ramey was a fool, too?
 >Dangerous Air Force!!).

 >May I add a personal comment, along the same line as Durant.
 >There is another key witnesses: the man who spent the all day on
 >the debris field with Marcel: Captain Sheridan Cavitt. When
 >interviewed by Colonel Weaver for the Air Force in 1994, (the 30
 >pages interview is in the AF Roswell Report), Cavitt stuck to
 >the first "explanation", the one of an ordinary weather balloon.

If Cavitt's testimony is 30 pages long that would explain why
Pflock doesn't include it with all the 1 or 2 or 3-page
affidavits he does include in his book - it was just too long
for the very limited value it has, contrary to Durant who makes
some big point of its omission as if some kind of major coverup
by Pflock.

 >If the purpose had been, in 1947, to protect the top-secret
 >Mogul balloons, in 1994 Cavitt did not have to do that any more!
 >If that's what he had found, he should have said to Weaver: "Oh
 >yes, I remember now, the cluster of balloons, radar targets
 >reinforced with flower decorated tape, instruments etc." But
 >no, he did not find that, only a miserable weather balloon.

 >If only Cavitt had been willing to vouch for the Mogul story,
 >that would have probably put an end to the Roswell case. Instead
 >of that, when Weaver asked him his opinion of Karl Pflock, he
 >replied: "He's our chief debunker. I lean toward him".

What an insult to Phil Klass! If Karl Pflock is the AF's "chief
debunker" what does that make Phil? Too bad Karl does such a
horribly bad job of it that his masterpiece of alleged
debunkery, this Roswell book, contains some of the most
convincing and compelling evidence that something unusual _did_
happen at Roswell, evidence that should never have seen the
light of day if Karl was truly a sinister agent of the great
conspiracy. Everywhere I turn in Karl's book I find troubling
evidence of something very mysterious at Roswell. To me this is
the best case _for_ Roswell ever put forward to date, because
among other things, it isn't laden down with all the dubious and
incredible wild stories and has been sifted by a very critical
eye. If this much pro-UFO evidence survives Pflock's sober
scrutiny to reach the pages of his book, that makes it all the
more credible in my view.

Durant makes a very good point, though not very cogently: What
"secret" was there to protect with Mogul? The balloons and radar
reflectors were lost all the time and no one on the Mogul
project cared. The only press attention was that created by the
AAF itself when it put out that press release from the 509th
proudly announcing that the AAF had, in effect, solved the
flying disc mystery and regained mastery of the skies over
America once again. Skeptics are forced to explain this as a
foulup, that the right hand of the AAF didn't know what the left
hand was doing, partly because of the alleged high-security and
compartmentation of the Mogul project - which I dispute because
it is inconceivable to me that the 509th would put out a press
release on a subject of nationwide public impact without
coordinating with AAF HQ in Washington.

But even if we ignore the 509th's press release, we are
confronted with a very strange response documented by Pflock in
his book (p. 150). Karl claims that the news coverage from the
509th's release threatened to compromise security of the project
and that "physical evidence" of the Mogul balloons falling into
the wrong hands would be an example of such a security breach
requiring something to be done "to divert press and public
attention." As Durant documents straight out of Pflock's book,
the balloons and off-the-shelf equipment were innocuous and
could not possibly expose the Top Secret purpose to which they
were being put - which was to set up a system to monitor
acoustic shock waves expected from future Soviet nuclear tests,
and other intelligence items of interest. Even if one
eavesdropped on the telemetry sent from some of the instrument
packages it would not tell you what it was for or what was its
significance.

There was precedent for the military to hold a press conference
to try to "deflect" public attention away from a dangerous
security leak. On June 7, 1942, the Chicago Tribune printed a
story that the Navy knew in advance about the positions of the
Japanese fleet at the Battle of Midway, thus exposing to the
Japanese the fact that we had broken their naval codes. The
Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Ernest King held a press
conference to try to "deflect" attention away from a codebreak
by suggesting other causes to explain the Tribune story.
(Micahel Smith, The Emperor's Codes, 2001, p. 142.)

So what did the AAF do to supposedly keep "the secret of Project
Mogul ... safe" according to Pflock? The AAF held a press
conference in New Mexico the next day, July 9, 1947, to announce
to all the world the identity and location of the
"high-security" (Pflock's words p. 146) New Jersey military
laboratory responsible for launching the (Top Secret Mogul)
balloons and the military command responsible for them and its
location as well!

This AAF announcement identifying the "Watson Laboratories AMC
experimental group for long range radar detection" (as quoted by
Pflock) served to attract even more security-compromising
attention by talking about not just "experimental radar" but
specifically "long range radar" which put it into the most
highly sensitive category of radar development at that time.

Thus, the multiple Soviet spy rings then known by security
authorities to be operating in both New Mexico and New Jersey
were told by the AAF itself about the existence of a
high-priority espionage target to turn their attention to, and
were told who was involved and where to go!!!

How in the world did this protect Mogul security??? How did this
"divert public and press attention"? By making up a cover story
for Mogul referring to a high-priority target for Soviet
espionage - long range experimental radar - this didn't "divert"
attention but positively attracted it in a way that could result
in Soviet agents concentrating more and more espionage resources
to AMC Watson Labs at Red Bank, NJ, until they succeeded in
uncovering the actual purpose of the Mogul balloons. Does this
make any sense at all??? Even a loyal and patriotic press was
still interested in top secret radar developments especially if
the military was seemingly willing to reveal them, so how did
that "divert" instead of attract attention from the press?

And Pflock has blocked any way out of this from the possible
skeptical excuse "they just didn't know about supersecret Mogul
at Alamogordo" by documenting the fact that Major W. D.
Pritchard, who was the Watson Labs project officer at Alamogordo
AAF who arranged the press conference and balloon launch demo,
was fully "privy" to the Top Secret Mogul Project and
"coordinated" with Mogul field chief Albert Crary. (p. 146) So
no one can claim that this utterly unbelievable
attention-getting show was done inadvertently and in ignorance
of Mogul. And surely we're not going to be treated to the
patently absurd idea that _three_ supposedly Mogul-related AAF
press conferences and releases in a row, the 509th's, Ramey's,
and Alamogordo's, were not coordinated with higher headquarters
in Washington!!

So what is the meaning of all this? I think it is pretty clear,
speaking as a Roswell skeptic who used to think Roswell was the
biggest bunch of hogwash in UFO history. Thanks to Karl Pflock I
am beginning to see new things. (As Durant says, it's a
"dangerous book," alright but in a way entirely different than
Durant or perhaps even Pflock intends.) The Alamogordo press
conference was designed to divert attention alright, and the AAF
was willing to risk compromise of this Priority 1A TOP SECRET
Project Mogul in order to do so. What could possibly have been
so important that the AAF would deliberately dangle Mogul out to
the secret-hungry press and Soviet spy networks in a seemingly
desperate effort to almost give away an ultra top secret to
protect something else?

 >Why did Cavitt refuse to support the Mogul story?
 >Possibly, he felt that his oath of secrecy did not compell
 >him to engage into a new, more elaborate lie.
 >The old one was good enough. The message was
 >then: "yes of course, we lied, and I will stick to that".

Of course Cavitt lied his head off. What I think is interesting
is this notion that the Secretary of the AIR FORCE in 1994 could
release Cavitt, or anyone else serving in the ARMY in July 1947
at the time of the Roswell incident, from ARMY security oaths,
or from security strictures imposed by any other agency in July
1947, before the AIR FORCE itself had even been created. This is
laughable. The Secretary of the AIR FORCE would have no
authority to clear or lift ARMY security restrictions. The whole
issue of the difficulties with different agencies not respecting
each other's security clearances is in the Washington news
_today_, years and decades later because it still isn't fully
resolved. All this great flourish with the SecAF makes a good
show so long as one doesn't dig too deeply or ask too many
questions.

 >But who cares about the opinion of Lt Colonel Cavitt?
 >Karl Pflock knows better: he found a Mogul balloon train!

Maybe he did find a Mogul array. Did you stop to consider that a
Mogul balloon array was found but along with something unusual?
Did you think about the possibility that if there had been
aerial recon that it surely would have have turned up the lost
Mogul flight in the area even if it hadn't already been found on
the ground by Brazel? Did it ever occur to you that skeptics and
proponents might both be right in large respects and that there
is common ground in between?

One thing that Pflock reiterates throughout his book is the
corrosive effect that crashed saucer - dead alien tales have had
in the Roswell controversy. What if the truth about Roswell is
that something extraordinary _did_ happen, but did not include
dead aliens and War of the Worlds-type wrecked spaceships? What
if the government discovered early on that the easiest way to
deflect serious attention away from its UFO secrets was to salt
stories with liberal doses of dead aliens and crumpled space
vehicles? How hard would it be to spread such saucer-bodies
rumors if the government wanted to do so? How hard would it be
to deliberately contaminate body-less accounts of anomalous UFO
evidence with pickled "aliens" and spacecraft? How hard would it
be to stage a few hush-hush "crash saucer" classified government
conferences, show a few carefully staged movies, pass around
some cleverly misrepresented classified documents, especially
when no public or press scrutiny is possible because of the
security restrictions?

These sensational morsels about alien skin color, eating habits,
body shape, etc., seize people's attention and crowd out the
less interesting (but more accurate or truthful) details of
anomalies, mysteries, extraordinary unexplained incidents. The
truth isn't protected by a "bodyguard of lies," but by a bodybag
of alien corpses. If the government had a program of
discrediting genuine leaks with alien tales, wouldn't we
_expect_ to find a suspiciously high rate of well-placed
military and defense personnel, even the very patriotic
last-person-on-earth-we'd-expect-to-tell-tall-tales types,
telling very strange tales such as these, mixed in with
seemingly sober material, all done with a straight face?
Wouldn't we expect that whenever focus on alien baloney begins
to wane that suddenly a new initiative appears out of nowhere to
revive it once again, presenting new spine-tingling promises of
full disclosure of the alien bodies? Scully, Newton, Ike's visit
to Edwards, Hangar 18, Emenegger, MJ-12, Area 51, Corso, and
Greer readily come to mind. If so, then the government has
successfully polarized us into two warring camps each of which
continue to unwittingly follow the government script, repeating
the same plays over and over again, keeping us focused on what
the government wants us focused on, neutralized and no threat to
the government's secrets. And we mindlessly plunge on ahead
oblivious to the manipulation and deception even when some try
to sound a warning.

To sum up: Karl Pflock deserves our thanks and gratitude for the
tremendous research effort he put into his Roswell book and for
revealing a lot of very "inconvenient facts" - inconvenient to
both sides of the Roswell debate including himself. His book is
a worthy work of scholarship. He deserves a fair hearing and
honest criticism. He doesn't deserve to be vilified as some kind
of devious debunker or coverup conspirator. We can disagree with
his conclusions, as I have and as Bob Durant and others have,
but we cannot ignore the wealth of factual evidence Karl has
given us that enables us to reach our own, differing
conclusions. Pflock's book is the second great shock that has
recently shattered my long-held Roswell skepticism.


Brad Sparks








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   Aug > Aug 11

                          Jesse Ventura Talks UFOs

From: Steven L. Wilson, Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 12:38:26 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 16:31:04 -0400
Subject: Jesse Ventura Talks UFOs


Jesse Ventura Talks UFOs


.c The Associated Press


APPLE VALLEY, Minn. (AP) - UFOs? Why not?

"You look at the vast array of stars up there and we're to believe we're the
only life?" Gov. Jesse Ventura said Friday. "I don't think so. ... There's
got to be somebody else out there."

The comments came in reaction to a question from an audience member during
Ventura's live weekly radio show, broadcast from the Minnesota Zoo.

Ventura said the federal government should disclose whatever it knows about
aliens or unidentified flying objects to the public.

"That's called national security," he said. "People in government think
you can't handle it and you need to be protected from it."

"Personally, I've never seen a UFO. I can't say that I have," Ventura said.
"But do they exist? Who knows?"

AP-NY-08-11-01 0331EDT

Copyright 2001 The Associated Press.


Researcher Steven L. Wilson, Sr
To submit paranormal/UFO activity email Ndunlks@aol.com










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             Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 17:32:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 17:32:57 -0400
Subject: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario



From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

Source: Rense.com

http://rense.com/general12/reportsofglow.htm

Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario

08-11-01

Hello,

I'm a police constable for the OPP (Ontario Provincial Police)
and I am taking a huge risk to deliver this information to you.
For the past three months there have been very unsual things
happening around the local areas I work in. This is the first
time ever that things of this nature have been reported in this
area.

All police agencies in this area were ordered not to release or
acknowledge the reports being made, orders came in from main HQ.
Reports are now being sent in to the military so I was only able
to access and copy a few reports without being noticed. I have
family in this area and I am very worried that something serious
is going on in this area. This email was created for single time
use,on a public computer....so don't bother replying to this
email address.

Reports are below.

  UFOs

June 28,2001 9:30PM East of Arthur, Ont. Canada. 5 Witnesses

Event Description: A orange glowing object was seen hovering 100
metres above a small wooded area. The object began to glow
brighter and vanished. Five minutes later the object reappeared
in the same spot and began moving until it was no longer
visible.


June 30,2001 7:00PM Hwy.9 (From Grand Valley to Palmerston).
Multiple Witnesses (including 2 highway patrol officers)

Event Description: Motorists travelling to cottages for the long
weekend holiday witnessed five glowing orange circular/disc
shaped objects flying in formation along Hwy.9. Objects were
flying just above the tree level. Objects were described as
being large (length of six vechiles).


July 4,2001 2:00PM North of Drayton, Ont. 4 Witnesses

Event Description: Three metallic disc shaped objects were
witnessed by four farmers working in the field. The objects were
flying towards them at low altitude. The discs slowed down and
hovered ten metres away from the farmers. The discs hovered for
five mintues then continued on their previous course. The discs
were described as being 20ft in length. The witnesses also
reported hearing a low humming sound.


July 10,2001 7:00PM Near Damascus (East of Arthur,Ont.) 3
Witnesses

Event Description: A triangular shaped object was witnessed
hovering near the local marsh. The object appeared to be black
in colour with three white lights at each corner. The object was
described as being the size of a football field.


July 11,2001 6:00PM Palmerston, Ont. Multiple Witnesses

Event Description: A triangular shaped object was seen flying
across the town. The object moved slowly above the local high
school. It was described as being black with three lights and
making no sound.


July 22.2001 11:00AM South East of Mount Forest, Ont. 1 Witness

Event Description: A farmer was travelling in his field aboard
his tractor when he witnessed metallic objects in his field.
Thinking it was garbage that someone had dumped he went closer
to remove it. As he got closer he saw ten or more small metallic
discs, the size of dinner plates, resting on his field. He
described them as being very reflective like mirrors. When he
got closer the discs began to hover and fly away in the opposite
direction.


           Unusual Events/Encounters

July 1,2001 8:00PM Near Damascus, Ont. 2 Witnesses

Event Description: A couple were riding their bikes along a
wooded area, where the witnessed what they initially thought
were a group of bears. As they got closer they noticed it was a
group of tall humanoid shaped beings that were covered with
brown hair. The beings appeared to be holding unusual devices.
There were four beings present, they quickly fled into the
wooded area after being spotted.


July 20,2001 9:30PM South of Fergus, Ont. 4 Witnesses

Event Description: Police were called in to monitor a "bush
party" that was being held in a remote area. The police's duties
were to monitor for underage drinking, impaired driving and
keeping the peace. Until a unusual event was reported to them. A
group of teenagers had wandered off in a wooded area. The teens
then witnessed a unusual glow within the forest. Attempting to
reach the source the teens ran into five beings. The teens
observed from a distance without being spotted. They described
the beings as looking like normal humans, except that they had
pointed ears. They had short curly dark hair, they were normal
height, and they wore white robed clothing. They appeared to be
taking soil samples. The teens feared being caught so they left.
After returning to the party the teens then reported it to the
police monitoring the party. Two constables were taken to the
site and only found a four inch circular hole in the ground that
was five feet deep.












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                Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 17:35:19 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 13:54:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Mortellaro


 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:55:32 -0500

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Date: 10 Aug 2001 10:56:27 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'

 ><snip>

 >>OK, Brad, so you say. However, why is it the Mogul staff had no
 >>concern for the recovery of the physical materials. Where they
 >>floated off to did not seem to interest the Mogul personnel.
 >>Flight 8 was aloft about 3 hours before touching down about 20
 >>miles from the base and nothing from this flight was recovered.
 >>Only 20 miles away and no one bothered to pick it up. There are
 >>other reasons why the Mogul explanation fails and if this is
 >>proven, then Karl's book is so much waste paper.

Dear Bill, Denise... Dennis, sorry, All and EBK,

Bill, why do you not say Karl's last name in your tomb... tome?
Might it be that you cannot say it without making a mistake in
the pronounciation, or can it be that your speeling of the name
"Flock" is off Kimber? Informed believers want to know.

 >Bill,

 >Go back and look at a population density map for New Mexico in
 >1947. No one ever expected that Mogul - or much other debris -
 >would ever be encountered by humans. That's why they (and
 >others) did the stuff where they did it. They expected the
 >landscape itself to absorb most of the evidence.

Horses potties... patooties... Dennis, the reason those thingies
were done there in the first place, was not because of the dense
population. There was very little population there. Harumpff!
And there too.

 >Why do you think Los Alamos and the 509th Bomb Group were
 >located where they were in the first place?

There you go ass ooming again. I told you that the population
desnity was very _low_ there and you keep saying some none sense
about the dense population. Menace!

 >As for 20 miles with roads and 20 miles without roads, there is
 >a world of difference. One reason why, I suspect, the Hub Corn
 >ranch has "caught on" as the location of the "official" crash
 >site: you can easily get there by car from Roswell, $15 or so
 >per vehicle.

This ranch was just recently purchased by the Gripple Institoot
for a song. I think it was the theme to the Godfadda what did
it. Anyway, the new fee is $50 per car. Deal with it.

 >What if it weren't so easy? What if you couldn't necessarily get
 >there from here? Do you forge your own roads?

Ah but you _cannot_ get there from here, which is why we bought
the farm. There.

 >I can take you to a ranch in West Texas and tell you that a pot
 >of gold is "only" 20 miles away somewhere to the northwest.

There is _nothing_ in West Texas. I remember flying into the
town what Texas Instruments was in... nothing but dirt. Sand
actually. We were making our approach to the airport when I
suddenly screamed, "Oh my GOd we gonna crash.... " when the Stu
came over with a Scotch and told me (A) to shut the hell up and
(B) that we were as the pilot just announced, making our
approach to the airport.

When we landed I was compelled to wear that gas mask I always
carry for just such emergencies. Take a deep breath and all's
you get is sand. Every try breathing sand? Go to West Texas.

 >And go to sleep perfectly content that you won't stumble across
 >it in this century or the next, using only available 1947
 >technology.

I promise to use 1947 technology if you promise to put that pot
of gold there. (Heh, heh)

 >No one bothered to pick up the debris from Flight 8, even though
 >it was only 20 miles away, because no one needed to or thought
 >it necessary. Had it come down at a highway intersection, that
 >might have been another matter. But it didn't. It came down in a
 >remote area where it could be conveniently ignored - and
 >allowed to deteriorate over time.

Just like me. I've deteriorated over time and in fact, as we
speak, my body is rejecting me.

 >And so did the Foster ranch episode occur - until Brazel
 >inadvertently stumbled across it.

 >_That's_ what initiated the recovery and cover up, not any
 >built-in retrieval policy on the part of Project Mogul.

Mogul is not sold there. Neither is Fosters. Only Ballentine and
the Three Ring Sign.

Deal with that too.


Con mucho gusto, I remain,

Prone









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   Aug > Aug 12

               Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 22:55:34 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 13:59:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around


 >Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 17:32:57 -0400
 >To: "02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario

 >Source: Rense.com

 >http://rense.com/general12/reportsofglow.htm

 >Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario

 >08-11-01

 >Hello,

 >I'm a police constable for the OPP (Ontario Provincial Police)
 >and I am taking a huge risk to deliver this information to you.
 >For the past three months there have been very unsual things
 >happening around the local areas I work in. This is the first
 >time ever that things of this nature have been reported in this
 >area.

 >All police agencies in this area were ordered not to release or
 >acknowledge the reports being made, orders came in from main HQ.
 >Reports are now being sent in to the military so I was only able
 >to access and copy a few reports without being noticed. I have
 >family in this area and I am very worried that something serious
 >is going on in this area. This email was created for single time
 >use,on a public computer....so don't bother replying to this
 >email address.

 >Reports are below.

 >   UFOs

 >June 28,2001 9:30PM East of Arthur, Ont. Canada. 5 Witnesses

 >Event Description: A orange glowing object was seen hovering 100
 >metres above a small wooded area. The object began to glow
 >brighter and vanished. Five minutes later the object reappeared
 >in the same spot and began moving until it was no longer
 >visible.

 >June 30,2001 7:00PM Hwy.9 (From Grand Valley to Palmerston).
 >Multiple Witnesses (including 2 highway patrol officers)

 >Event Description: Motorists travelling to cottages for the long
 >weekend holiday witnessed five glowing orange circular/disc
 >shaped objects flying in formation along Hwy.9. Objects were
 >flying just above the tree level. Objects were described as
 >being large (length of six vechiles).

 >July 4,2001 2:00PM North of Drayton, Ont. 4 Witnesses

 >Event Description: Three metallic disc shaped objects were
 >witnessed by four farmers working in the field. The objects were
 >flying towards them at low altitude. The discs slowed down and
 >hovered ten metres away from the farmers. The discs hovered for
 >five mintues then continued on their previous course. The discs
 >were described as being 20ft in length. The witnesses also
 >reported hearing a low humming sound.

 >July 10,2001 7:00PM Near Damascus (East of Arthur,Ont.) 3
 >Witnesses

 >Event Description: A triangular shaped object was witnessed
 >hovering near the local marsh. The object appeared to be black
 >in colour with three white lights at each corner. The object was
 >described as being the size of a football field.

 >July 11,2001 6:00PM Palmerston, Ont. Multiple Witnesses

 >Event Description: A triangular shaped object was seen flying
 >across the town. The object moved slowly above the local high
 >school. It was described as being black with three lights and
 >making no sound.

 >July 22.2001 11:00AM South East of Mount Forest, Ont. 1 Witness

 >Event Description: A farmer was travelling in his field aboard
 >his tractor when he witnessed metallic objects in his field.
 >Thinking it was garbage that someone had dumped he went closer
 >to remove it. As he got closer he saw ten or more small metallic
 >discs, the size of dinner plates, resting on his field. He
 >described them as being very reflective like mirrors. When he
 >got closer the discs began to hover and fly away in the opposite
 >direction.

 >            Unusual Events/Encounters

 >July 1,2001 8:00PM Near Damascus, Ont. 2 Witnesses

 >Event Description: A couple were riding their bikes along a
 >wooded area, where the witnessed what they initially thought
 >were a group of bears. As they got closer they noticed it was a
 >group of tall humanoid shaped beings that were covered with
 >brown hair. The beings appeared to be holding unusual devices.
 >There were four beings present, they quickly fled into the
 >wooded area after being spotted.

 >July 20,2001 9:30PM South of Fergus, Ont. 4 Witnesses

 >Event Description: Police were called in to monitor a "bush
 >party" that was being held in a remote area. The police's duties
 >were to monitor for underage drinking, impaired driving and
 >keeping the peace. Until a unusual event was reported to them. A
 >group of teenagers had wandered off in a wooded area. The teens
 >then witnessed a unusual glow within the forest. Attempting to
 >reach the source the teens ran into five beings. The teens
 >observed from a distance without being spotted. They described
 >the beings as looking like normal humans, except that they had
 >pointed ears. They had short curly dark hair, they were normal
 >height, and they wore white robed clothing. They appeared to be
 >taking soil samples. The teens feared being caught so they left.
 >After returning to the party the teens then reported it to the
 >police monitoring the party. Two constables were taken to the
 >site and only found a four inch circular hole in the ground that
 >was five feet deep.

Does anyone else detect a distinct aroma of rodent here? Just
too damn pat for my taste. How would one Provincial cop have
access to all this scattered information? I'll leave it to
Ontario residents to assess the likelihood.

Meanwhile, anonymous information is worthless on its own. But
with this many alleged witnesses in one Province, it should be
possible to smoke out at least a few confirming witnesses who
are willing to go on record. If something of this alleged
magnitude were going on, isolated witnesses would be looking for
confirmation from others. I'm assuming Errol will put out a
radio call for witnesses.

My working hypothesis, however, is that this is a hoax. Go ahead
and prove me wrong by finding evidence. I'm willing to discard
my hypothesis on the basis of new evidence. That's science.


Dick









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   Aug > Aug 12

                  Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 20:08:53 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:02:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sandow


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 09:48:29 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 12:18:20 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 13:46:03 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>Subject: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>To: UfoUpdates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>ROSWELL: Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe

 >>>by Karl Pflock

 >>>reviewed by Mac Tonnies

 >>To Mark Tonnies and the List

 >>Before you fall completely in the "skeptic's corner" on Roswell,
 >>at least read the brillant critic of the book made
 >>by Robert Durant, just published in the review of Cufos,

 >Good points but hardly "brilliant," it is intermixed with huge
 >errors and it is very poorly documented considering the 12
 >"dense" pages it takes up in IUR, not citing a single page
 >number of Pflock's book, thus forcing the reader to waste time
 >having to go through the entire book in many cases to find the
 >quotes and obscure references - fortunately Karl's book has an
 >index, which helps. The critique regrettably delves into really
 >needless personal jabs without any appreciation for the great
 >work that Karl Pflock has done in giving us his unique
 >perspective of once being pro-Roswell and now anti-Roswell but
 >still pro-UFO, where he presents both the pro-UFO evidence as
 >well as the anti-Roswell evidence - however imperfectly and
 >subject to criticism and however much we may disagree with
 >Karl's conclusions based on this evidence.

<snip>

Let me be one of the first to thank Brad for his clear, logical,
objective -- and, as always with him -- scrupulously fair
comments. I've been baffled by Roswell, and his post helps me
start to clarify things.

I'm looking forward to reading Karl's book. I might add, by the
way, that Karl, too, is one of the most objective, fair-minded
people I've met in this field. Doesn't mean I or anyone else has
to agree with him about Roswell or anything else, but I'll always
take anything he says very seriously.


Greg Sandow








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   Aug > Aug 12

                Meteor Shower Tonight And The Rest Of August

From: Teri Edgar <tedgar@socal.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 17:44:59 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:04:26 -0400
Subject: Meteor Shower Tonight And The Rest Of August


Hi Folks,

Tonight is a great time to view cosmic fireworks: the Perseid
Meteor Showers. During the early weeks of August Earth will be
littered with extraterrestrial debris. I saw a spectacular
shooting star when I took the dog to the beach after dark last
night around 9 p.m. at Zuma Beach (Southern California). Early
morning hours of August 12, that's tonight/this morning, is
supposed to be the hot time to view them--between 1-4 a.m. 20
meteors per hour is predicted. Venus and Jupiter in Gemini in
the East-Northeast and Saturn high in the sky (but to the
Southeast) will feature in the dawn sky.

You won't need any instruments such as binoculars to see them;
they're visible to the naked eye. Just be sure to have a
comfortable, fold down chair or sleeping bag, and accoutrements
to keep you comfortable.

"You will see most meteors directly; but you will sometimes see
others out of the corner of your eye. If you are very lucky, you
will witness a fireball, a very bright meteor with a a small
disk. Some fireballs break into several fragments. With
excellent viewing conditions, you should see about one meteor
per minute at the peak! Even if you are not observing under
optimal circumstances, which is likely to be the case, you can
expect to see about 25 meteors per hour."  Whee!

Happy viewing and keep your eyes on the skies.....


Teri Edgar



"I wish no living thing to suffer pain."
  Percy Bysshe Shelley (1792-1822)










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   Aug > Aug 12

                 Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 11 Aug 2001 20:14:02 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:08:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Hamilton


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 04:24:41 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Date: 10 Aug 2001 10:56:27 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'

 >>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 15:22:14 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Date: 7 Aug 2001 06:47:57 -0700
 >>>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'

 >>>>>Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:31:54 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

<snip>

 >>>>>What if the Roswell story falls, as I believe is in
 >>>>>the process of happening?

 >>>>It won't happen becaue of Pflock's book. Read some paragraphs
 >>>>from it in the bookstore on Friday. Same old Mogul balloon
 >>>>hypothesis (not a certainty at all). He critisizes testimony
 >>>>that doesn't agree with his conclusions and supports testimony
 >>>>he believes does.

 >>>How is it that there is _any_ testimony in Pflock's book that
 >>>conflicts with his conclusions? Why does he let that stuff in
 >>>there?

 >>He gives little space to anomalous descriptions. Have you read
 >>June Crain's testimony? She saw the material at Wright-Patterson.
 >>Her testimony about shape memory and uncuttable metal is similar
 >>to other testimony. I don't think Karl gave such testimony
 >>much attention.

 >I think you're being very unfair to Pflock. He has an entire
 >25-page chapter on the descriptions and identifications of the
 >Roswell debris and further discussion and quotes throughout the
 >book, plus an extremely valuable 50 pages of verbatim
 >transcripts and affidavits from Marcel and others filled with
 >descriptions of the Roswell material. So what are you saying,
 >that he should have written an entire book on _Roswell Debris_?
 >Then what happens to all the other aspects of Roswell, the Frank
 >Kaufmann and Glenn Dennis, Ragsdale and other stories, the
 >bodies, the recovery operations, etc. etc.????

At least half of it since that seems to be the most important
element in Pflock's book. Why didn't any of the witnesses
describe the balloons themselves? What happened to the ballons,
not just the sonde? In fact it all revolves around whether the
debris that covered the wide area that Brazel found could be
accounted for by a broken-up radio sonde?

 >He goes into great detail on "anomalous descriptions" or are you
 >just relying on the distorted and error-filled review instead of
 >reading the book?

 >Isn't the June Crain story something just recently surfaced by
 >the Woods? If her story is admittedly "similar" to other
 >accounts, which Karl covers in his book, then nothing has been
 >missed as far as descriptions are concerned. There had to be a
 >cutoff point somewhere in finishing the book otherwise it'd
 >never get published.

I think it adds to the testimony that something was highly
unusual about the metal found.

 >>>>Then why are the images of the debris in Ramey's office photos
 >>>>not consistent with that of a Mogul balloon. Why does Sheridan
 >>>>Cavitt still stick to the weather balloon story?

 >>>>No, I think Pflock's book will just follow Kal Korff's book to
 >>>>the graveyard of unsold books.

 >>>I think you're wrong. I'll have more on this soon.

 >>OK, Brad, so you say. However, why is it the Mogul staff had no
 >>concern for the recovery of the physical materials. Where they
 >>floated off to did not seem to interest the Mogul personnel.
 >>Flight 8 was aloft about 3 hours before touching down about 20
 >>miles from the base and nothing from this flight was recovered.
 >>Only 20 miles away and no one bothered to pick it up.

 >You're just getting this from the book review. What does this
 >have to do with the Mogul explanation? It has _nothing_ to do
 >with it. It has to do with the Mogul _coverup_ claim not the
 >explanation for the debris. You and others keep driving this
 >fanatical either/or situation -- it has to be either Mogul or an
 >anomaly/spaceship and you can't seem to consider the possibility
 >of both.

Do you consider the possibility of both?

 >>There are
 >>other reasons why the Mogul explanation fails and if this is
 >>proven, then Karl's book is so much waste paper.

 >It will certainly not be "so much waste paper." How ironic that
 >one of the great contributions possibly even a breakthrough in
 >Roswell research is treated so shabbily and Karl Pflock
 >condemned and treated as an enemy to be destroyed. Read my long
 >post on this coming soon, assuming I'm not vilified and damned
 >to hell beforehand. I predict no one will be happy with it from
 >either side.

As we both know, Brad, we haven't heard the end of this yet.
Neither Kevin or Stanton have stepped in here to say much in the
way of their opinion on the matter. There is no doubt that a
great deal of scholarship can still result in a wrong answer if
one goes into an investigation leaning in that direction.
Certainly, I admit that Karl seems to play fair, but I am not
convinced of it.


Bill H









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   Aug > Aug 12

               Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 11 Aug 2001 20:18:19 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:11:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Hamilton


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 22:46:53 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Date: 10 Aug 2001 10:44:18 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 07:31:43 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>>Date: 8 Aug 2001 09:04:39 -0700
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

 ><snip>

 >>These lights were holding a "V" formation
 >>according to witnesses.

 >Not according to all witnesses. At least one described several
 >"V"s and others scattered around.

 >>I don't have a belief one way or another. As for the witnesses,
 >>perhaps some were what you call believers and others were not.

 >Yes, that's always a possiblity. Especially the woman who was
 >convinced that she had seen a miracle.

 ><snip>

 >>It seems like your belief is that if something unusual is seen
 >>in the sky, it must have a prosaic explanation.

 >Yeees... That's a reasonable way to start. Good Lord, Bill, if
 >you didn't do that you would have Flying Saucers everywhere.

Or, as in your case, meteors everywhere. I don't immediately
start with any explanation.

 >>Have you ever found any sighting that you could not
 >>explain?

 >Sure, Kenneth Arnold's. Actually, I haven't decided yet,
 >whether it was a meteor, birds or a mirage (a long-time favorite
 >of mine and old Doc Menzel). I just keep trying.

Well, at least there is one.

 >The difference between my approach and yours is that you assume
 >that every little light in the sky that the witnesses can't
 >identify must be a UFO, where I assume that the witness just
 >doesn't recognize what they're looking toward. See, then you can
 >start with a list like, Planets, Stars, airplanes, etc.

Good grief! You know nothing about my approach. I usually
dismiss little lights in the sky in 99% of the cases. I always
start with the usual list like planets, stars, aircraft of any
sort, meteors, or even reflected ground lights, but after
considering most of these and not finding a match, then I dig
deeper.










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                 Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 11 Aug 2001 20:21:04 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:14:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Hamilton


 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:55:32 -0500

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Date: 10 Aug 2001 10:56:27 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'

 ><snip>

 >>OK, Brad, so you say. However, why is it the Mogul staff had no
 >>concern for the recovery of the physical materials. Where they
 >>floated off to did not seem to interest the Mogul personnel.
 >>Flight 8 was aloft about 3 hours before touching down about 20
 >>miles from the base and nothing from this flight was recovered.
 >>Only 20 miles away and no one bothered to pick it up. There are
 >>other reasons why the Mogul explanation fails and if this is
 >>proven, then Karl's book is so much waste paper.

 >Go back and look at a population density map for New Mexico in
 >1947. No one ever expected that Mogul - or much other debris -
 >would ever be encountered by humans. That's why they (and
 >others) did the stuff where they did it. They expected the
 >landscape itself to absorb most of the evidence.

 >Why do you think Los Alamos and the 509th Bomb Group were
 >located where they were in the first place?

 >As for 20 miles with roads and 20 miles without roads, there is
 >a world of difference. One reason why, I suspect, the Hub Corn
 >ranch has "caught on" as the location of the "official" crash
 >site: you can easily get there by car from Roswell, $15 or so
 >per vehicle.

 >What if it weren't so easy? What if you couldn't necessarily get
 >there from here? Do you forge your own roads?

 >I can take you to a ranch in West Texas and tell you that a pot
 >of gold is "only" 20 miles away somewhere to the northwest.

 >And go to sleep perfectly content that you won't stumble across
 >it in this century or the next, using only available 1947
 >technology.

 >No one bothered to pick up the debris from Flight 8, even though
 >it was only 20 miles away, because no one needed to or thought
 >it necessary. Had it come down at a highway intersection, that
 >might have been another matter. But it didn't. It came down in a
 >remote area where it could be conveniently ignored - and
 >allowed to deteriorate over time.

 >And so did the Foster ranch episode occur - until Brazel
 >inadvertently stumbled across it.

 >_That's_ what initiated the recovery and cover up, not any
 >built-in retrieval policy on the part of Project Mogul.

Not just the fact that it wasn't recovered. No balloon material
was mentioned in the debris field that Brazil found. All that
debris from a radiosonde? That is what it amounts to.


Bill H








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   Aug > Aug 12

                 Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:46:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:18:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Aldrich


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 09:48:29 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 12:18:20 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >>Before you fall completely in the "skeptic's corner" on Roswell,
 >>at least read the brillant critic of the book made
 >>by Robert Durant, just published in the review of CUFOs,

 >Good points but hardly "brilliant," it is intermixed with huge
 >errors and it is very poorly documented considering the 12
 >"dense" pages it takes up in IUR, not citing a single page
 >number of Pflock's book, thus forcing the reader to waste time
 >having to go through the entire book in many cases to find the
 >quotes and obscure references - fortunately Karl's book has an
 >index, which helps.

<snip>

 >Yes, Karl
 >missed a few pro-Roswell points and understated things here and
 >there (as I will point out), but he also presented tremendously
 >important pro-UFO evidence that something unusual really did
 >happen at Roswell in 1947 which if he was the diabolical
 >debunker as he is being portrayed he could easily have
 >suppressed.

 >For example, Karl presents the extremely provocative testimony
 >of several AFOSI/CIC agents through an investigation he
 >undertook with the Association of Former OSI Special Agents (pp.
 >113-7). He concludes that there is "less than meets the eye"
 >here because of memory problems or errors but I look at the
 >evidence from agents Zimmerman, Bethart, O'Brien and Miller and
 >I find it quite disturbing and not subject to dismissal. The
 >facts and reasoning Karl uses to reject the testimony of
 >Zimmerman and Maj. O'Brien are flatly in error factually and
 >logically, the green fireball investigation is grossly
 >misrepresented, and thus the testimony about Lincoln LaPaz's
 >reported involvement in investigating Roswell in 1947 remains
 >intact, to say nothing of the fact it correlates with other data
 >I cannot discuss at present.

 >If the world renowned meteoriticist Lincoln LaPaz investigated
 >Roswell in 1947 then that is tremendously disturbing for us
 >Roswell skeptics. He was then, in effect, the world's leading
 >UFO investigator from his decades of meteor fireball
 >investigations, which honed his mathematician skills in deriving
 >solar orbits of meteors and triangulating impact sites for
 >recovering meteorites by interviewing witnesses - those hated
 >numbskulls always derided by debunkers, yet somehow LaPaz
 >usually got accurate enough data to actually find meteorites
 >from it, even though it was like looking for a needle in a
 >haystack. He developed the ability to evaluate eyewitness
 >testimony and determine what was the most accurate, what was
 >less accurate and what was worthless.

 >Now think about what that means, think real hard, especially the
 >part about "deriving solar orbits." If, and I admit it is a big
 >"if," if the government _thought_ there was a crash or explosion
 >of a vehicle or maybe to generalize this a bit, a "something"
 >from outer space and it had no way to determine its origin from
 >what mundane evidence it may or may not have had in hand, who
 >could possibly be able to determine the point of origin in outer
 >space from other data, from eyewitness data? Who had the unique
 >skills to extract the requisite data by interrogation?

 >Do you suppose that in 1947 someone in authority at the AAF who
 >knew LaPaz, who by the way had a TOP SECRET clearance with the
 >Army/AAF, might have thought it was just possible that LaPaz
 >could reconstruct a solar orbit for a UFO or flying disc if he
 >got sufficient data? Never mind whether today in 2001 that might
 >seem silly or impossible because we think of interstellar flight
 >rather than interplanetary now, the question is whether someone
 >in the military _back then_ in 1947 might have _thought_ this
 >was a good idea based on what they knew of LaPaz's peculiar
 >specialty of calculating meteor orbits from eyewitness data. It
 >is irrelevant whether LaPaz succeeded or not, I'm only talking
 >about whether he might have been brought in for this.

 >Who on earth at that time would have been a _better_ expert than
 >LaPaz in taking eyewitness data and tracing back trajectories to
 >points of origin literally in outer space? No one! Certainly not
 >solar astrophysicist Menzel who despised laymen eyewitnesses and
 >probably never did a bit of meteorite hunting in his life (no
 >doubt that can be checked). Who would already have the necessary
 >security clearances? Who was already located in New Mexico? Who
 >was already known to AAF and security agencies in New Mexico?
 >Who is known to have been in the Corona, N.M., area on July 10,
 >1947?

 >We know where LaPaz was at 4:47 in the afternoon of Thursday,
 >July 10, 1947, two days after the Roswell story burst into the
 >world news: He was driving on a road or highway north of Corona,
 >a long way from home in Albuquerque! He said he and his family
 >were driving from Clovis to Clines Corners when they sighted a
 >Daylight Disc UFO - not a green fireball at night, but a real
 >honest-to-goodness UFO, high speed and highly maneuverable. He
 >doesn't say what highways or roads or possible detours he might
 >have taken along the way from Clovis to Clines Corners and
 >strangely omits giving his actual location at the time of the
 >sighting which is extremely bizarre for the careful scientist
 >LaPaz was - it suggests he was unwilling to reveal his exact
 >location for some reason. It's the only defect in an otherwise
 >scientifically precise, airtight UFO case, one of the best cases
 >of all time. No explanation what they were doing in Clovis in
 >the middle of the week 6 days after the 4th of July holiday -
 >just the one word "vacationing" would suffice but it's not
 >mentioned.

 >News reports place LaPaz in Oklahoma when the Roswell story
 >broke on July 8, as he was traveling around doing meteorite
 >hunting. The main highway leading from Oklahoma directly to
 >LaPaz's home in Albuquerque was almost a straight line running
 >east-west (look on a map) in 1947 and this was the famous Route
 >66. But Clovis was way off Route 66 to the south. Why did LaPaz
 >detour to Clovis from a straightline back home with a car packed
 >with wife and kids?

 >Why did LaPaz pick these _two_ towns, Clovis and Clines Corners,
 >over 150 road miles apart instead of specifying his actual
 >location at the sighting, just the name of _one_ town and his
 >distance? Why didn't he take the most direct route back to Route
 >66 from Clovis, which would be to go through Ft. Sumner then
 >rejoin Route 66 near Santa Rosa - a full 50 miles before he
 >would have gotten to Clines Corners? In that case he would have
 >said he was driving from Clovis to Santa Rosa, not Clovis to
 >Clines Corners. (See the 1947 map in Pflock's book endpapers.
 >This makes more sense when one studies it carefully on a map as
 >if you're planning the trip as your own.)

 >Why on earth did LaPaz take this 100-mile detour in the first
 >place, going straight southwest apparently from Amarillo, Tex.,
 >directly into Clovis, N.M., from Route 66? Another 100 miles or
 >so in the _same_ southwest direction on a straight-line road,
 >Hwy 70, takes you from Clovis directly into - ROSWELL. Here
 >seems to be the reason for choosing Clovis: By going through
 >Clovis he would save almost 80 miles of travel to get to
 >Roswell, instead of continuing on Route 66 then going directly
 >south from a turnoff near Santa Rosa.

 >If LaPaz had indeed taken a detour to Roswell then Hwy 285 takes
 >him most conveniently back to Route 66 and the junction would
 >then have to be Clines Corners rather than Santa Rosa (once
 >again saving nearly 50 miles' travel this time). This is the
 >most direct Roswell detour route off of Route 66, and Clovis and
 >Clines Corners are the most logical _New Mexico_ takeoff points
 >for a Roswell detour, saving more than 120 miles total. Had
 >LaPaz said he was driving from a place in Texas (Amarillo) to a
 >place in New Mexico (Clines Corners) it might have drawn
 >attention to the fact that he was obviously withholding the
 >exact location for some reason.

 >And Hwy 285 of course is the road one has to take to get to the
 >Brazel debris field, and it's the scene of reported military
 >roadblocks. (Pflock pp. 27, 44, 60, etc.)

 >It is possible that LaPaz belatedly used a family vacation trip
 >and meteorite hunt as a cover for Roswell-related interviewing -
 >clearly he took his family along for meteorite hunting at least
 >(what kind of "vacation" [my word] could that be anyway, taking
 >a entire family of four out into the Texas Panhandle in the
 >blistering heat of July?). LaPaz might have decided to contact
 >the military while on this trip to Oklahoma on unrelated
 >business and offer his assistance, after he was contacted by
 >reporters about the flying discs sightings in the news. Maybe a
 >detour to Roswell was suggested to him. Maybe he suggested it.

 >Or LaPaz might have been brought in by the military _initially_
 >without a thought of trajectories but merely to canvass
 >neighboring communities to find out how much eyewitnesses may
 >have seen since he was known to be good at doing that (and might
 >be less obtrusive than stiff-necked GI's who would scare people
 >and attract too much attention, whereas LaPaz was reportedly
 >quite accustomed to giving out cover stories, such as
 >"investigating an aircraft accident," Pflock p. 113, or perhaps
 >a "meteorite hunt"). LaPaz may have then been the one to suggest
 >to the military that if he could get sufficient witness data to
 >determine a velocity and a direction (radiant) he might be able
 >to project a trajectory out into space. Either way.

 >Even the now skeptical Karl is forced to admit it is "possible"
 >LaPaz was involved in the Roswell investigation (p. 113).

 >Sure, this isn't _proof_ that LaPaz went to Roswell but his odd
 >statement giving a 150-mile Clovis-Clines Corners _route_
 >instead of giving his exact sighting location on July 10, 1947,
 >is unaccountable for this meticulously detailed scientist, very
 >suspicious, and fits the logical travel route for a detour to
 >Roswell that is concealed between the Clovis-Clines Corners
 >place names - and he certainly had to pass close to Corona by
 >any interpretation. The fact he kept this daylight UFO sighting
 >so private for so long, never bringing it up in the course of
 >his green fireball investigations and reports about which he was
 >so outspoken - in contrast to his silence about the UFO which
 >was revealed only reluctantly and anonymously - is indicative of
 >hiding something more than just a sighting.

 >I plotted the trajectory of a Roswell UFO back into outer space
 >using the most detailed sighting data available, the Wilmots'
 >sighting of July 2, 1947, with the SE-NW path. No one else has
 >ever done this before so far as we know unless LaPaz did it. A
 >horizontal flight path projects back to somewhere near the
 >constellation Capricorn in outer space, at very roughly 21 hrs
 >(RA) -30� (Dec), the most important point of which is that it is
 >reasonably and surprisingly close to the ecliptic, the plane of
 >the earth's orbit around the sun as well as the plane of most of
 >the planets in our solar system, and the error margins are large
 >enough it might actually be right on the ecliptic. It's a bit
 >surprising because if it was just random it could come from any
 >direction. If LaPaz discovered this in 1947 it might have
 >suggested either a natural phenomenon such as a meteor or
 >possibly the flight path of an interplanetary vehicle which of
 >course would most likely come from the direction of a planet on
 >the ecliptic plane. Hmmmm. Just trying to reconstruct what LaPaz
 >might have discovered if he had tried to derive an orbital
 >trajectory from the Roswell events, and what he might have told
 >authorities. No one else has ever reconstructed this.

 >The very fact that I can make my independent evaluation of this
 >evidence is a tribute to the great job Karl has done of fairly
 >presenting the evidence here. Again, if Karl Pflock was the evil
 >debunker why did he spend 5 pages presenting this OSI/CIC
 >evidence which he could just simply have omitted and no one
 >would have been the wiser - least of all Durant who doesn't even
 >mention it and misses its significance? (Among other things, the
 >testimony of the AFOSI/CIC agents is in a different class
 >because they were responsible for plugging security leaks and
 >enforcing security, hence anything they reveal is going to be
 >reluctantly given up, as witness the continuing facile lies from
 >Cavitt 47 years after the fact.)

Hi Brad and List

I just want to butt in here for some little comments.

Tom Tulien as part of the Sign Historical Group oral history
program interviewed Col Doyle Reese, the first head of the Air
Force Kirkland District Office Special Investigations (OSI).
Rees was a laywer not an intelligence agent, the Air Force
wanted someone who could direct fraud and other such
investigations in that area.

While certain personel from the Army Counter Intelligence
Command (CIC) were transferred to the OSI, maybe the records
were not. As Reese remembers it, the records were not
transferred. Not necessarily surprising, OSI was not just a
counter intelligence agency, but a criminal investigation agency
and an arm of the Inspector General. Other Services have
separate organizations for these functions, but the Air Force
developed this approach due to unique circumstances in its
history and probably because the first Chief of Special
Investigations (CSI) was an FBI agent sent to the Air Force to
set up the program. (One has to comment here that Col. Reese is
dealing with nearly 50 year old recollections here and there
might have been some mistakes.)

As I have outlined in 'The Search for Roswell Records' many
promising leads were not followed up in the search for official
records on the Roswell incident.

http://www.project1947.com/roswell/rosearch.htm

The Army seems to have gotten away free here. I seriously doubt
that their search of their records was serious or diligent, and
I doubt that they went after the CIC records for Roswell in
their records holding areas. (CIC was an Army agency and in 1947
such records would have been in the Army system; so put emphasis
on each place "their" appears above.)

The DOD Assistant Inspector General had to get involved with
both the Army and Navy when they did not send representatives to
a GAO meeting on Roswell, because they contended, "it was the
Air Force's business."

One other comment on the CIC: during the war these guys were
given rather wide powers to do their counter intelligence jobs.
After the war, most CIC were assigned overseas as part of
occupation duty. The occupation was not handled in the most
legal or humane manner. In some cases it was down right brutal,
so some CIC agents may have acquired an "off the wall" approach
to doing things and threaten people with death if they talked
about something. However, this doesn't go down to well with a
lot of people. I have a lot of trouble believing that military
officials would come into a local law enforcement office and
threaten the local sheriff. First off it is not very smart to go
into the lion's den and beard the lion, one might be facing down
a shot gun barrel and get a few threats coming their way.

This makes for a great read and high drama, but the guy who runs
in the drunk wingnuts and breaks up fights on the weekend is
hardly overawed by the military presence. Most military towns I
have been in it's the other way around; local John Law gets away
with nearly anything up to just short of murder in dealing with
the military. A different more reasonable approach would be
needed for good cooperation.

As for LaPaz, I can't take this trajectory calculation story too
seriously. If the Roswell debris did originate on the 2nd of
July maybe so. However, when was the material found?
Contemporary newspaper accounts have the time as back in June.


Jan Aldrich









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   Aug > Aug 12

                Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect

From: Stephen Miles Lewis <smiles@elfis.net>
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:54:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:20:28 -0400
Subject: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect


On August 23, Whitley Strieber will be at Bookpeople in Austin,
Texas at 7:00 PM.

He will also appear on Politically Incorrect (the television
show) on August 16 with comedian Kevin Nealon, skeptic Michael
Shermer and actress Marion Ross (Happy Days).









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              Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:37:47 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:53:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect


 >Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:54:30 -0500
 >Subject: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect
 >From: Stephen Miles Lewis <smiles@elfis.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >On August 23, Whitley Strieber will be at Bookpeople
 >in Austin,  Texas at 7:00 PM.

 >He will also appear on Politically Incorrect (the television
 >show) on August 16 with comedian Kevin Nealon, skeptic Michael
 >Shermer and actress Marion Ross (Happy Days).

Does anyone know why, exactly, Strieber is appearing
alonside the obligatory "skeptic"?  I thought Strieber
was campaigning his new fiction book, "The Last
Vampire."

For that matter, who is Michael Shermer?  I've never
heard of him.

  [see:

   http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/may/m08-004.shtml

   --ebk]

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 816-561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html








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   Aug > Aug 13

               Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 08:15:50 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 09:56:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario
 >Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 22:55:34 +0000

 >>Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 17:32:57 -0400
 >>To: "02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario

 >>Source: Rense.com

 >>http://rense.com/general12/reportsofglow.htm

 >>Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario

 >>08-11-01

 >>Hello,

 >>I'm a police constable for the OPP (Ontario Provincial Police)
 >>and I am taking a huge risk to deliver this information to you.
 >>For the past three months there have been very unsual things
 >>happening around the local areas I work in. This is the first
 >>time ever that things of this nature have been reported in this
 >>area.

 >>All police agencies in this area were ordered not to release or
 >>acknowledge the reports being made, orders came in from main HQ.
 >>Reports are now being sent in to the military so I was only able
 >>to access and copy a few reports without being noticed. I have
 >>family in this area and I am very worried that something serious
 >>is going on in this area. This email was created for single time
 >>use,on a public computer....so don't bother replying to this
 >>email address.

 >>Reports are below.

 >>UFOs

 >>June 28,2001 9:30PM East of Arthur, Ont. Canada. 5 Witnesses

<snip>

 >Does anyone else detect a distinct aroma of rodent here? Just
 >too damn pat for my taste. How would one Provincial cop have
 >access to all this scattered information? I'll leave it to
 >Ontario residents to assess the likelihood.

 >Meanwhile, anonymous information is worthless on its own. But
 >with this many alleged witnesses in one Province, it should be
 >possible to smoke out at least a few confirming witnesses who
 >are willing to go on record. If something of this alleged
 >magnitude were going on, isolated witnesses would be looking for
 >confirmation from others. I'm assuming Errol will put out a
 >radio call for witnesses.

 >My working hypothesis, however, is that this is a hoax. Go ahead
 >and prove me wrong by finding evidence. I'm willing to discard
 >my hypothesis on the basis of new evidence. That's science.


- - -

Hello Dick (and all)

Yes, I smell a rat too. I was considering asking for opinions on
the list, but you saved me the trouble.

Too bad really, a couple of cases sounded really neat. Nicely
organized with the dates, times, locations all up front over a
terse and pertinent synopsis of events.

If only the genuine reports would come in like that!

If its a hoax for the benefit of Jeff Rense et. al., then the
hoaxer can teach a lesson or two to people trying to report
actual sightings.

I also note the conspiratorial veil of silence on the part of
the Provincial Police, something I find unlikely, as the data is
shunted over to the military, in peacetime. Its all too pat for
me too.


Best!

- Larry









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   Aug > Aug 13

                 Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:18:16 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 09:59:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Gehrman



 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 09:48:29 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >Despite Pflock quoting literally pages of witness testimony to
 >unusual material properties in the Roswell debris throughout his
 >book and repeatedly reciting it to the point of redundancy (AP
 >reporter Kellahin's description of the material is quoted twice
 >on the same page, p. 153), and presenting an extremely valuable
 >collection of 50 pages of witness interview transcripts and
 >affidavits,

I just purchased Pflock's "Roswell' yesterday and expected a
$26, typical debunking hack-job but was surprised to find an
interesting, fact-filled, hack-job instead.

And while you're correct that Karl has made an important
contribution to Roswell research, his conclusions are dead wrong
and dumb. ( find an identifiable piece of the mogul on the floor
of Gen. Ramey's office) This it is not the fault of the
information that Pflock has gathered together, but his own spin
on the details.

Pflock gets his AA facts all wrong; (the phone cord issue was
settled within the first week of discussion back in 95 so he
really shouldn't have made that error), and while he mentions
the work of RPIT, his comments are condescending and ignorant.
This is not a good book by any stretch of the imagination, but
it is and important book for Roswell aficionados.

<snip>

 >To sum up: Karl Pflock deserves our thanks and gratitude for the
 >tremendous research effort he put into his Roswell book and for
 >revealing a lot of very "inconvenient facts" - inconvenient to
 >both sides of the Roswell debate including himself. His book is
 >a worthy work of scholarship. He deserves a fair hearing and
 >honest criticism.

 >He doesn't deserve to be vilified as some kind
 >of devious debunker or coverup conspirator. We can disagree with
 >his conclusions, as I have and as Bob Durant and others have,
 >but we cannot ignore the wealth of factual evidence Karl has
 >given us that enables us to reach our own, differing
 >conclusions. Pflock's book is the second great shock that has
 >recently shattered my long-held Roswell skepticism.

Karl does not deserve our thanks or gratitude; (buying the book
is enough) but "Roswell" deserves to be read carefully and
honestly criticised.












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   Aug > Aug 13

              Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect

From: Daniel D. Moroff <smoothie7@home.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:38:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:01:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect


 >Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:37:47 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:54:30 -0500
 >>Subject: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect
 >>From: Stephen Miles Lewis <smiles@elfis.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>On August 23, Whitley Strieber will be at Bookpeople
 >>in Austin,  Texas at 7:00 PM.

 >>He will also appear on Politically Incorrect (the television
 >>show) on August 16 with comedian Kevin Nealon, skeptic Michael
 >>Shermer and actress Marion Ross (Happy Days).

 >Does anyone know why, exactly, Strieber is appearing
 >alonside the obligatory "skeptic"? I thought Strieber
 >was campaigning his new fiction book, "The Last Vampire.
 >For that matter, who is Michael Shermer? I've never
 >heard of him.

Maybe he figures someone will actually listen.












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               Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around

From: Robert Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:50:31 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:05:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario
 >Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 22:55:34 +0000

 >>Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 17:32:57 -0400
 >>To: "02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario

 >>Source: Rense.com

 >>http://rense.com/general12/reportsofglow.htm

<snip>

 >>I'm a police constable for the OPP (Ontario Provincial Police)
 >>and I am taking a huge risk to deliver this information to you.

<snip>

 >>All police agencies in this area were ordered not to release or
 >>acknowledge the reports being made, orders came in from main HQ.

A great way to create a fake coverup. Since everyone was ordered
to coverup, naturally when no such reports are acknowledged
after inquiries, this would be claimed to be proof of a coverup.

On the other hand, if there was such an order maybe it's because
the reports are known to be fakes.

 >>Reports are now being sent in to the military so I was only able
 >>to access and copy a few reports without being noticed.

<snip>

Notice that the reports which were "copied" (presumeably from
the official documents) all have times which are right on the
hour or half hour, and include no witness names. If the report
was made anonymously as claimed, why be sircumspect when one's
"family" is at risk?

<snip>

 >>June 28,2001 9:30PM East of Arthur, Ont. Canada. 5 Witnesses

<snip>

 >>June 30,2001 7:00PM Hwy.9 (From Grand Valley to Palmerston).
 >>Multiple Witnesses (including 2 highway patrol officers)

<snip>

 >>July 4,2001 2:00PM North of Drayton, Ont. 4 Witnesses

 >>July 10,2001 7:00PM Near Damascus (East of Arthur,Ont.) 3
 >>Witnesses

<snip>

 >>July 11,2001 6:00PM Palmerston, Ont. Multiple Witnesses

<snip>

 >July 22.2001 11:00AM South East of Mount Forest, Ont. 1 Witness

<snip>

 >July 1,2001 8:00PM Near Damascus, Ont. 2 Witnesses

<snip>

 >>July 20,2001 9:30PM South of Fergus, Ont. 4 Witnesses

<snip>

 >Does anyone else detect a distinct aroma of rodent here?

<snip>

 >Meanwhile, anonymous information is worthless on its own.

 >My working hypothesis, however, is that this is a hoax. Go ahead
 >and prove me wrong by finding evidence. I'm willing to discard
 >my hypothesis on the basis of new evidence. That's science.

Needles to say, Richard, we agree on this one.









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   Aug > Aug 13

                 Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Young

From: Robert Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:58:44 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:07:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Young


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: 11 Aug 2001 20:18:19 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 22:46:53 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>The difference between my approach and yours is that you assume
 >>that every little light in the sky that the witnesses can't
 >>identify must be a UFO, where I assume that the witness just
 >>doesn't recognize what they're looking toward. See, then you can
 >>start with a list like, Planets, Stars, airplanes, etc.

 >Good grief! You know nothing about my approach. I usually
 >dismiss little lights in the sky in 99% of the cases. I always
 >start with the usual list like planets, stars, aircraft of any
 >sort, meteors, or even reflected ground lights, but after
 >considering most of these and not finding a match, then I dig
 >deeper.

Bill:

Like your "Skydancer" UFOs, dancing around in hand-held binocs
where Venus was in the daytime sky?  Please see:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/nov/m28-014.shtml


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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              Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect

From: Steve Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 16:12:15 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:11:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect


 >Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:37:47 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>


 >>Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:54:30 -0500
 >>Subject: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect
 >>From: Stephen Miles Lewis <smiles@elfis.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>On August 23, Whitley Strieber will be at Bookpeople
 >>in Austin,  Texas at 7:00 PM.

 >>He will also appear on Politically Incorrect (the television
 >>show) on August 16 with comedian Kevin Nealon, skeptic Michael
 >>Shermer and actress Marion Ross (Happy Days).


 >Does anyone know why, exactly, Strieber is appearing alonside
 >the obligatory "skeptic"?  I thought Strieber was campaigning
 >his new fiction book, "The Last Vampire."

 >For that matter, who is Michael Shermer?  I've never
 >heard of him.


Mac,

Shermer has bee establishing himself as a skeptic. See his books
at Amazon.com

How We Believe: The Search for God in an Age of Science

Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other
Confusions of Our Time

The Borderlands of Science: Where Sense Meets Nonsense

This is an interesting opportunity and I'm sure Whitley will do
fine. Am I jealous he got this gig? - you betcha.


Steve Bassett









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              Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 17:07:39 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:18:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect


 >Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:37:47 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:54:30 -0500
 >>Subject: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect
 >>From: Stephen Miles Lewis <smiles@elfis.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>On August 23, Whitley Strieber will be at Bookpeople
 >>in Austin, Texas at 7:00 PM.

 >>He will also appear on Politically Incorrect (the television
 >>show) on August 16 with comedian Kevin Nealon, skeptic Michael
 >>Shermer and actress Marion Ross (Happy Days).

 >Does anyone know why, exactly, Strieber is appearing
 >alonside the obligatory "skeptic"? I thought Strieber
 >was campaigning his new fiction book, "The Last
 >Vampire."

 >For that matter, who is Michael Shermer? I've never
 >heard of him.

Dear All, EBK;

Who is Shermer? Woof! Don't go to the URL Errol pointed to
unless you have a strong stomach or, you are taking Prilosec.
However the better question is, "Why the hell does the man wish
to appear on such as Mahr's show when it is obvious to all that
all he'll get is abuse and a black eye for the rest of the UFO
community.

Now I shall answer my question. The reason he must appear is
that his publisher requires it. Another good reason for self-
publishing. Boogers never look good on TV. Especially when
there's no hanky around to save your tuchus.

Old Morty








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                    CCCRN News: 08-12-01 Crop Watch 2001

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:09:27 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:21:13 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: 08-12-01 Crop Watch 2001



CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

August 12, 2001

_____________________________


CROP WATCH 2001

As we enter the usual prime 'circle season' here in Canada,
CCCRN will be conducting expanded field studies in Saskatchewan
in August and September, for Crop Watch 2001, involving aerial
surveillance of known 'hot spots' where possible (and subsequent
photography of any formations), field investigations of reported
circles, other experiments and increased farming / media
awareness initiatives. While this also covers Canada in general
over these two months, the focus is on the prairie provinces,
Saskatchewan and Alberta, where most formations are reported.

CCCRN will also be assisting in the filming of a couple
documentaries in Saskatchewan during this time as well as doing
other  radio programs in the region, including live updates as
warranted for CCCRN's own Fields of Dreams webcast for the World
Paranormal Report portion of the Night Search Paranormal Network
(NSPN).

Circle reports this year during the regular harvest time may be
very unpredictable as parts of the prairies have been hit with a
very bad drought, with sparser than normal crop growth in many
areas. A reminder to the Canadian subscribers on this mailing
list (or otherwise even), if you see or hear of any formations,
please let us know. There is a rumoured report of a formation at
Leduc, Alberta (just south of Edmonton), but this has not been
confirmed yet. As usual, previous reports so far this year (5)
have been mostly in wild grass and pasture field areas.

(NOTE: I will be in Saskatchewan and possibly also Alberta to
assist with CW activities from about the last week of August and
during the first part of September. During that time, I can be
reached if needed by my cell (604.727.1454) or my alternate
hotmail e-mail address (cccrn@hotmail.com); please use these
only for urgent messages, ie. formation reports, etc.; regular
e-mail should be sent to my usual address and I will be able to
get back to people after I return, thanks! - PA).


____________________________

CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
information on other CCCRN-related projects and events.













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                       The Forest Has Eyes... Red Ones

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:28:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:26:13 -0400
Subject: The Forest Has Eyes... Red Ones


This may be a little off-topic, but I would love to get some
input from the very knowledgeable crowd that hangs around this
List. I have some pictures up on my webpage that are very odd.
Some of those "what the hell is that?" sort of things.

http://www.jilain.com/ufo/paranormal/creek.htm

Take a look if you get a free minute and let me know what
you think.

Thanks

Bobbie

==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========








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                Sighting, Franklin/Springboro, OHIO - 8/3/01

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 00:04:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:43:07 -0400
Subject: Sighting, Franklin/Springboro, OHIO - 8/3/01


On Tuesday, August 7, Ohio M.U.F.O.N. state director Bill Jones
received word of a sighting that occurred in Franklin, Ohio on
Friday, August 3.

Bill Jones of Columbus, Ohio took the report from Scott Arnette,
a M.U.F.O.N. State Section Director in Louisiana who has an "800"
number intended for receipt of Louisiana UFO sightings.

The UFO witness, Mr. Greg Banks of Morland Drive in Franklin,
Ohio, reported that he was awakened early in the morning,
perhaps around 2 a.m., when a bright light flashed through his
window. He then heard a "thunder like" sound.

Scott Arnette said that Mr. Banks claimed that no thunderstorms
were in the area. The hair on his arm seemed to stand up.

Jones reports: "He (Mr. Banks) went outside on the porch and saw
a bright white light in the sky. He called it a sphere. He said,
in response to a question from Scott, that an aspirin tablet
held at arms length would not cover this light. It was traveling
slowly. Then it stopped over a wood line to the East Northeast.
He thought it was about 2 miles distant in the direction of
Springboro. The light bobbed up and down for awhile. Then a
smaller white light came out from underneath it and bobbed
around like a cork in the water. It also moved around the parent
object for a time, but mostly stayed underneath it. He told
Scott that the moon was visible to the south. He tried to take a
picture of the light with his parent's camera. He did not have
access to a video camera."

Banks had called Arnette at the 1-800 number while this event
was still going on and they talked about what was happening.
Banks had watched the light for about an hour before he made the
call. When the call with Scott was terminated the sighting was
still going on.

Scott Arnette said he then made a call to the Springboro police
to see if he could get confirmation of the sighting. He asked
the police to call him back, but they never did.

Bank's mother, who lives in the same house, apparently saw the
light also.


Investigation

After acquiring details of the report from Bill Jones, I placed
a call to the claimant. He sounded alert and explained that he
had never seen anything like this before and was not medicated
and had been sober during the event. He asserted his inability
to explain the sighting. His mother, who he said is extremely
religious, also saw the object after he awakened her and she was
unable to account for it, also saying it was "something very
unusual" from her perspective.

The witness recounted basically the same details as Bill Jones
advised of above, but also added that the object seemed
localized above the area of Springboro. He thinks that Scott
from Louisiana had called the Springboro police department but
is unsure of any response from that department. He has not heard
any news since but suspects that others should have seen the
object, perhaps motorists driving along I-75.

Interestingly, Greg informs that the sound of helicopters were
heard several minutes into the event while he was standing in
the yard and talking on the phone with Scott in Louisiana. Greg
states that he could not visually see helicopters or ascertain
the source of the helicopter noise.

He was not familiar with any recent UFO sightings and not
familiar with the recent police/UFO event in Waynesville, Ohio,
near his location by a few miles. Interestingly, his sighting
has similarities to the recent police/UFO sighting in that the
object first appeared near to the witness and then receded into
the distance over a brief period of time. This location is also
south of Wright Patterson Air Force Base by around 25-miles.

The Springboro Police Department was contacted at 513-748-0611
and the female dispatcher who took the call checked the record
book and advised that there's the nothing relevant to a UFO
sighting listed on August 3rd. I left my telephone number with
her and requested that she leave my number posted if anyone had
information about a UFO sighting to call me.

Banks was a friendly and cooperative witness and did not mind
having his name released with the report. A very special thanks
to Scott Arnette and Bill Jones for this information.


Filed: Thursday, August 7, 2001

Kenny Young

U F O R e s e a r c h
http://home.fuse.net/ufo/










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               Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:45:07 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:47:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >To: 02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers
 >Date: Saturday, August 11, 2001 2:32 PM
 >Subject: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario


Hello all,

 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >Source: Rense.com

 >http://rense.com/general12/reportsofglow.htm

 >Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario

 >08-11-01

 >Hello, all EBK.

 >I'm a police constable for the OPP (Ontario Provincial Police)
 >and I am taking a huge risk to deliver this information to you.
 >For the past three months there have been very unsual things
 >happening around the local areas I work in. This is the first
 >time ever that things of this nature have been reported in this
 >area.

What no news media in Ontario?! No one reported this. EBK - CFRB
where are you? (finally stared listening to SDI - great show -
but I digress) all this activity and not one UFO/Media type has
heard about this?

 >All police agencies in this area were ordered not to release or
 >acknowledge the reports being made, orders came in from main HQ.

<snip>

Orders from H.Q. OK, right.

 >Reports are below.

 >  UFOs

 >June 28,2001 9:30PM East of Arthur, Ont. Canada. 5 Witnesses

 >Event Description: A orange glowing object was seen hovering 100
 >metres above a small wooded area. The object began to glow
 >brighter and vanished. Five minutes later the object reappeared
 >in the same spot and began moving until it was no longer
 >visible.

What direction? how fast, what's the big deal?

 >June 30,2001 7:00PM Hwy.9 (From Grand Valley to Palmerston).
 >Multiple Witnesses (including 2 highway patrol officers)

 >Event Description: Motorists travelling to cottages for the long
 >weekend holiday witnessed five glowing orange circular/disc
 >shaped objects flying in formation along Hwy.9. Objects were
 >flying just above the tree level. Objects were described as
 >being large (length of six vechiles).

Again, no one reports this? execept the hapless constable
Fife?

 >July 4,2001 2:00PM North of Drayton, Ont. 4 Witnesses

 >Event Description: Three metallic disc shaped objects were
 >witnessed by four farmers working in the field. The objects were
 >flying towards them at low altitude. The discs slowed down and
 >hovered ten metres away from the farmers. The discs hovered for
 >five mintues then continued on their previous course. The discs
 >were described as being 20ft in length. The witnesses also
 >reported hearing a low humming sound.

What direction did they move? Ten meters is _close_ folks.
that's a football field, roughly for us Yanqis. Not one whit of
evidence, even DNA from the Farmer's unlaundered BVD's?

 >July 10,2001 7:00PM Near Damascus (East of Arthur,Ont.) 3
 >Witnesses

 >Event Description: A triangular shaped object was witnessed
 >hovering near the local marsh. The object appeared to be black
 >in colour with three white lights at each corner. The object was
 >described as being the size of a football field.

Gee what's the big deal about keeping a Triangle sighting secret
I just saw one-or something very like one back in July. Ok, now
we are talking football. Notice the switch in descriptive terms?

 >July 11,2001 6:00PM Palmerston, Ont. Multiple Witnesses

<snip>

Ok, it's another triangle, I don't have all night, Constable Fife.

 >July 22.2001 11:00AM South East of Mount Forest, Ont. 1 Witness
 >
 >Event Description: A farmer was travelling in his field aboard
 >his tractor when he witnessed metallic objects in his field.
 >Thinking it was garbage that someone had dumped he went closer
 >to remove it. As he got closer he saw ten or more small metallic
 >discs, the size of dinner plates, resting on his field. He
 >described them as being very reflective like mirrors. When he
 >got closer the discs began to hover and fly away in the opposite
 >direction.

This is a good one, real flying saucers not only do we not know
the name of the farmer, but we don't know if the flying flatware
is microwave safe.


 >           Unusual Events/Encounters
 >
 >July 1,2001 8:00PM Near Damascus, Ont. 2 Witnesses
 >
 >Event Description: A couple were riding their bikes along a
 >wooded area, where the witnessed what they initially thought
 >were a group of bears. As they got closer they noticed it was a
 >group of tall humanoid shaped beings that were covered with
 >brown hair. The beings appeared to be holding unusual devices.
 >There were four beings present, they quickly fled into the
 >wooded area after being spotted.

Orrgh! or some such Sasquatch like sound, now Constable Fife has
Bigfoot involved, and he is possesed of unusual devices!
Probably to eat off the previous flying flatware.

 >July 20,2001 9:30PM South of Fergus, Ont. 4 Witnesses
 >
 >Event Description: Police were called in to monitor a "bush
 >party" that was being held in a remote area. The police's duties
 >were to monitor for underage drinking, impaired driving and
 >keeping the peace. Until a unusual event was reported to them. A
 >group of teenagers had wandered off in a wooded area. The teens
 >then witnessed a unusual glow within the forest. Attempting to
 >reach the source the teens ran into five beings. The teens
 >observed from a distance without being spotted. They described
 >the beings as looking like normal humans, except that they had
 >pointed ears. They had short curly dark hair, they were normal
 >height, and they wore white robed clothing. They appeared to be
 >taking soil samples. The teens feared being caught so they left.
 >After returning to the party the teens then reported it to the
 >police monitoring the party. Two constables were taken to the
 >site and only found a four inch circular hole in the ground that
 >was five feet deep.

Constable Fife has seen one too many 'Star Trek' episodes, or
that really was a Vulcan scouting party, which I find as, well,
logical (sorry I had to say that) as any other of the sightings.


Maybe 'HQ'. let the good Constable check his bullet out.

GT McCoy

Smelling the same rodent.











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   Aug > Aug 13

               CCCRN News: Dutch Formation Grows - Researchers

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 06:18:28 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:22:52 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Dutch Formation Grows - Researchers



CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

August 13, 2001

_____________________________


HOLLAND CROP FORMATION GROWS - WHILE RESEARCHERS ARE INSIDE IT!

In what appears to be the first known event of its kind, crop
circle researchers from Holland have reported that a 'scorpion'
formation found earlier this month grew an extra circle a few
days later - the catch is, this happened in daytime while the
researchers were surveying and photographing the formation; the
extra circle appeared at the end of the scorpion's 'tail' where
it had not been ten minutes before, with nobody seeing or
hearing anything...

Full story here:

http://www.earthfiles.com/earth263.htm

http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=695


____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
information on other CCCRN-related projects and events.













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               Re: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:06:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:24:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Maccabee


 >From: Gldas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 12:18:20 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com


 >>Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 13:46:03 -0700 (PDT)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>To: UfoUpdates <ufoupdates@home.com>>


 >>ROSWELL: Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe >

 >>by Karl Pflock

 >>reviewed by Mac Tonnies


 >May I add a personal comment, along the same line as Durant.
 >There is another key witnesses: the man who spent the all day on
 >the debris field with Marcel: Captain Sheridan Cavitt. When
 >interviewed by Colonel Weaver for the Air Force in 1994, (the 30
 >pages interview is in the AF Roswell Report), Cavitt stuck to
 >the first "explanation", the one of an ordinary weather balloon.

 >If the purpose had been, in 1947, to protect the top-secret
 >Mogul balloons, in 1994 Cavitt did not have to do that any more!
 >If that's what he had found, he should have said to Weaver: "Oh
 >yes, I remember now, the cluster of balloons, radar targets
 >reinforced with  flower decorated tape, instruments etc." But
 >no, he did not find that, only a miserable weather balloon. >

 >If only Cavitt had been willing to vouch for the Mogul story,
 >that would have probably put an end to the Roswell case. Instead
 >of that, when Weaver asked him his opinion of Karl Pflock, he
 >replied: "He's our chief debunker. I lean toward him".

For an analysis of the Cavitt testimony see Did Sheridan Cavitt
Visit the Same Crash Site or CAVITT EMPTOR at:

htt://brumac.8k.com









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   Aug > Aug 13

               Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around

From: Marty Murray <mmurray31@home.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 01:21:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:27:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario
 >Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 22:55:34 +0000

 >>Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 17:32:57 -0400
 >>To: "02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario

 >>Source: Rense.com

 >>http://rense.com/general12/reportsofglow.htm

 >>Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario

 >>08-11-01

 >>Hello,

 >>I'm a police constable for the OPP (Ontario Provincial Police)
 >>and I am taking a huge risk to deliver this information to you.
 >>For the past three months there have been very unsual things
 >>happening around the local areas I work in. This is the first
 >>time ever that things of this nature have been reported in this
 >>area.

 >>All police agencies in this area were ordered not to release or
 >>acknowledge the reports being made, orders came in from main HQ.
 >>Reports are now being sent in to the military so I was only able
 >>to access and copy a few reports without being noticed. I have
 >>family in this area and I am very worried that something serious
 >>is going on in this area. This email was created for single time
 >>use,on a public computer....so don't bother replying to this
 >>email address.

 >>Reports are below.

 >> UFOs

 >>June 28,2001 9:30PM East of Arthur, Ont. Canada. 5 Witnesses

 >>Event Description: A orange glowing object was seen hovering 100
 >>metres above a small wooded area. The object began to glow
 >>brighter and vanished. Five minutes later the object reappeared
 >>in the same spot and began moving until it was no longer
 >>visible.

<snip>

 >Does anyone else detect a distinct aroma of rodent here? Just
 >too damn pat for my taste. How would one Provincial cop have
 >access to all this scattered information? I'll leave it to
 >Ontario residents to assess the likelihood.

 >Meanwhile, anonymous information is worthless on its own. But
 >with this many alleged witnesses in one Province, it should be
 >possible to smoke out at least a few confirming witnesses who
 >are willing to go on record. If something of this alleged
 >magnitude were going on, isolated witnesses would be looking for
 >confirmation from others. I'm assuming Errol will put out a
 >radio call for witnesses.

 >My working hypothesis, however, is that this is a hoax. Go ahead
 >and prove me wrong by finding evidence. I'm willing to discard
 >my hypothesis on the basis of new evidence. That's science.


 >Dick

Howdy Richard!

This is a region of Ontario I am well familiar with, and these
various locations are not "widely scattered" as you surmised. In
fact most of these towns are located within a close distance of
each other, along Highway 6 running north from Guelph, Ontario.
It is mostly a rural area and it is not unusual to see
Mennonites driving horse and buggies through town.

I wouldn't be surprised if the same OPP officers didn't cover
the entire area described, hence this officer having access to
all this information. He may have been involved in some of the
investigations of the sightings himself, and no doubt knew the
officers who investigated the other ones. Nothing fishy at all
here, despite your suspicions.


Take care,

Marty








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                  Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Young

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:48:48 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:29:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Young


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:18:16 -0700

 >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 09:48:29 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >while you're correct that Karl has made an important
 >contribution to Roswell research, his conclusions are dead wrong
 >and dumb. ( find an identifiable piece of the mogul on the floor
 >of Gen. Ramey's office)

See:

REPORT OF AIR FORCE RESEARCH REGARDING THE
"ROSWELL INCIDENT" July 1994 By Col. Richard L. Weaver

Specifically,  the following Attachments:

16. July 9, 1947 Photos of Balloon Wreckage, Ft Worth Star
     Telegram

21. Signed Sworn Statement of Charles Moore, June 8, 1994, a man
     who launched the Mogul balloons arrays.

23. Transcript of Interview with Moore, June 8, 1994

25. Illustration of Project Mogul "Balloon Trains"

26. Two Photos of Project Mogul "Balloon Trains"

27. Log Summary, NYU Constant Level Balloon Flights

29. Copy of Blueprint for "Pilot Balloon Target, NM-307C/AP
     Assembly"

Ed, if you believe that the things photographed on Ramey's
office floor don't resemble the Mogul radar reflectors, but
instead look to you like an alien spaceship, please say so.


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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              Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 11:48:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:32:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect


 >Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:37:47 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:54:30 -0500
 >>Subject: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect
 >>From: Stephen Miles Lewis <smiles@elfis.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>On August 23, Whitley Strieber will be at Bookpeople
 >>in Austin,  Texas at 7:00 PM.

 >>He will also appear on Politically Incorrect (the television
 >>show) on August 16 with comedian Kevin Nealon, skeptic Michael
 >>Shermer and actress Marion Ross (Happy Days).

 >Does anyone know why, exactly, Strieber is appearing
 >alonside the obligatory "skeptic"?  I thought Strieber
 >was campaigning his new fiction book, "The Last
 >Vampire."

 >For that matter, who is Michael Shermer?  I've never
 >heard of him.

Hi All,

Politically Incorrect for all its pretensions of being a
"serious" talk show, is just a venue for its hosts (mostly)
vulgarian comedy. Several years ago Budd called me to ask if I
would be willing to appear with him on the David Letterman show.
After a brief moment of hesitation (I was astounded that he
would even consider it) I asked him if he was aware that
Letterman was a professional comedian, and that the point of
having us on could only be to lampoon and make light of UFO
abduction reports.

I'm not surprised at Whitley's acceptance of this guest shot on
P.I. But then I haven't taken him 'seriously' for many years
anyway. The reason for his acceptance has to be because he needs
to 'plug' the new book. It's a shame. I also wonder about where
Steve Bassett's "envy" comes from. What serious ufologist would
want to appear on a program that is only going to clothe the
phenom in even more ridicule?

I hope Whitley represents us (abductees) well, anyway.


Regards,

John Velez











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                       Where To Archive Diaries, Etc.?

From: Will Bueche - PEER <peer@peermack.org>
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 13:58:08 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:39:05 -0400
Subject: Where To Archive Diaries, Etc.?


Dear List,

Elderly people who have had a lifetime of alien encounter
experiences sometimes call PEER seeking a place to donate their
diaries before they pass away. Most often we suggest they hand
their journals down to a family member (usually good advice, as
the experiences sometimes run in families and therefore are of
interest to the children or grandchildren), but when this is not
possible, we are at a loss as to what to advise. We aren't able
to store such materials ourselves, and don't have a research
proposal in place to study them even if we had room.

Is anyone aware of any institutions that archive this sort of
material? Perhaps there are some libraries that save diaries
regardless of content (that is, whether alien encounters are
present or not)?


Will Bueche

PEER









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              Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Day 16

From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
Date: 13 Aug 2001 14:06:22 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:57:41 -0400
Subject: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Day 16


Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Day 16

"Got a few more calls today, one from an abductee who just could
not stop saying thank you, and wishing well. One from someone
who apologized for not giving his name - just wanted to say
thank you and that he was in the military and all that the
disclosure project witnesses say is true, and much more, and he
just wanted to share his appreciation. Someone else from Atlanta
-- 'thank you' and so on.... Very nice people, chatted with all
of them, and all very concerned about my health, but also very
appreciative.."
                            --Partial report by Lara on Day 13


On July 26, 2001 Lara Johnstone, a 35 year old woman from
Oakland wrote a letter to President George Bush in support of
400 UFO Disclosure Witnesses who had come forward to tell of
their involvement in the cover-up of the UFO story by the
government. Lara stated in her letter that she would support her
request for disclosure with a hunger strike. Now, two and a half
weeks later there is still no reply from President Bush, or any
one else at the White House. There is not even an acknowledgment
that the letter arrived.

This author E-mailed to President Bush, the first article in
this series 'Are You Ready for the Revolution', detailing Lara
Johnstone's hunger strike for UFO Disclosure. Moments later the
automatic E-mail responder at the White House sent back a reply.
"Thank-you for writing President Bush. He is not able to read
all his mail... thanks for your ideas... yada, yada.

The fact that there was a response was good news. It meant that
Bush was still there, and maybe Lara might still get a response.
Neither rogue North Korean terrorists, nor Al Gore forces had
overrun the White House. Bush was still in charge.

On July 28, two days after Lara sent her letter to the
President, and exactly one year after President-elect George
Bush promised UFO researcher Charles Huffer he would reveal the
UFO truth to the world, Lara began her hunger strike.

It is now August 12, sixteen days into the hunger strike. George
Bush is on holidays at his Texas ranch, probably enjoying the
occasional home ground Texas steak. Lara on the other hand is at
home, living only on water, vegetable and fruit juices, and
vitamins. She is concentrating on her perceived mission, and
planning what action to take next.

While she waits for the President to answer, Lara is writing a
second letter to President Bush. She is also working on a web
page she has set up to inform people about her mission:

http://www.amandla.org/ufo/

She calls the site "The Bush/UFO Disclosure Request". It is a
web site detailing the "Hungerstrike Requesting President Bush
to honor his agreement to tell the American people the truth, by
supporting the Disclosure Project witnesses to testify about
their extensive knowledge of UFOs." In days the site is up and
running, without all the 'Under Construction' signs that are so
common with new web pages.

The web site Lara has developed has a section where the original
letter of protest to President Bush can be read. There is a
section that relates news, and articles that have been written
about the hunger strike. There is a direct link to Dr. Steven
Greer Disclosure Project web site. There is a section on
upcoming events. Finally, Lara has included a section that
displays some of the letters of support she has received. She
has some strong supporters.

Among the many letters she has received are the following
examples:

- Ron Eastwood, a former bodyguard for Martin Luther King's wife
and children following his assassination wrote. Eastwood
detailed a hunger strike he had participated in with United Farm
Workers Union organizer Caesar Chavez. He told Lara, "My own
congestive heart failure, obesity, diabetes and high blood
pressure prevent me from taking the drastic measures you have
chosen (namely hunger strike) but be assured I shall make my
ability to write a sword of words to rattle the cages of as many
of our recalcitrant and cowardly public servants as possible on
this cause for total public disclosure. With your permission may
I send a copy of this message to my local news media and
government officials alone with the attached copy of the notice
which informed me of your awesome undertaking."

- Larry Bryant, a UFO researcher and long time crusader for
total disclosure of the UFO story by the government wrote, "As
an old semi-street warrior myself, (having taken part in the
anti-UFO-secrecy demonstrations that the now defunct Operation
Right to Know mounted some years ago at the White House, the
Washington Post Building, the Pentagon (there only indirectly.
Since I was still employed there), and the GAO building in
Washington), I get a vicarious thrill knowing that a young woman
has taken this bold lead in a renewed knock on officialdom's
UFO door."

- Tom Buyea from Miami Florida wrote, "I just read about you and
forwarded the email to about 3,000 people on all my UFO &
government conspiracy etc. email lists. What else can we do to
help you?"

- Hi there, I just read about you, I am the International
Director of P.R.I.S.M. International Paranormal Research
Investigation Services & Monitoring International here in
Adelaide, South Australia, I am starting "Operation Recovery"
which is the Sister to Project Disclosure, & I have people
coming forward, all though I would not like to say if the
Extraterrestrial Agenda is good or bad, how ever like you I
believe in the uncovering of the truth behind it all. You are a
brave lady, I admire you very much, I Love you very much too :)
I hope one day I can meet you & give you a big hug, cause your
my hero Lara, & everyone else's too, thank you for being there
for us, if I can help you somehow, please ask how!, take care
Lara, from all your friends in Australia


Lara spends time talking to people from all over the world
(calls from as far away as the UK and Australia) who have phoned
to offer support. She counsels with a small group over what to
do next, and E-mails people who have written with questions or
comments about her actions. She also watches and comments on the
many messages being posted on the many Internet discussion
boards that are discussing her Hunger Strike.

There have been ups and downs, even though after talking to
Lara, one comes away with the impression that for Lara it is all
good. She is a strong tree in the windy storm. Usually, it is
Lara who provides the support for the many concerned people who
see a looming disaster, and who have called her and expressed
concern for her well-being. An example is Lara's answer to one
concerned person who asked her about the pain of being hungry
all the time. Lara's response, "You are only hungry for the
first three days. I promise."

Despite Lara's steadfast optimism there have been downs over the
first 16 days of the hunger strike. The main down would be the
weight. Lara is down 13 pounds. To most this would seems like an
ensuing disaster. Lara, however, says, "I have a few pounds I
can lose."

Most of the comments have been supportive but unfortunately
there have been some real shots taken at her. Lara has after
all, chosen to involve herself in the world of Ufology where
primitive tribal warfare is often the norm.

One example of the very few attacks on Lara came from Jack
Sarfatti, a physicist who hosts a very small UFO/zero point
energy chat group (made up mainly of theoretical physicists, and
"bump in the night" intelligence types). Sarfatti is a big
supporter of space-based weapons. Perhaps it Lara's open
opposition to space based weapons that led Sarfatti to post a
vile attack on Lara on the Internet:

"Laura is a typical clueless New Ager brainwashed by Macroshift
psycho-babble with no ability to discriminate between real
science and Cargo Cult superstition posing as science. This poor
woman is obviously in need of psychiatric help."


Where the normal UFO response would be to counter-punch, Lara
was calm and collected in her response to Sarfatti. Perhaps this
is a result of the fact that Lara had absolutely no background
in Ufology before beginning the hunger strike. She took the
attack as an opportunity to repeat the goals of the hunger
strike:

"I appreciate your comments, and, I am okay with you saying
whatever you like - I know that your definition of who I am or
what I do is not 'who I am' ;-), only your imagination! ;-) And
a very vivid one at that! ;-) I want the truth, I want the light
of the truth to shine where the darkness of secrecy, fear and
hate currently reigns and makes us more afraid of one another,
so that we call them names, whatever name we wish to denigrate
them by. I apologize but I do not wish to do that, and that is
not my quest or my purpose. I shall continue my search for
truth, and I support you in continuing yours. Mine is a request
to President Bush to honor his agreement with Charles Huffer and
the American people. I imagine that includes you! ;-), unless
you already have been informed about the 'secret' truth!, and
are trying to deflect the issue to me!"


Another temporary down was the lack of support or contact from
people that would have been expected to race to Lara's aid.
Again the ever-positive Lara understood. She told this author:

"I imagine they are a little unsure as to what to do - should
they endorse, and then it goes down the drain, and damages all
the work they have done... My focus - I want to keep on Pres.
Bush - it was his agreement (made twice) with Huffer (and
therefore the people) that I want him to keep, or at the very
least re-negotiate - which is what anyone who makes an agreement
has to do, if they can no longer keep it! So, I am going to
attempt to keep my focus there... They need to keep their
'professionalism' - and not be seen as 'activist' and they have
worked hard at that... I can support them, and appreciate their
work, without them having to 'endorse' me. They are not
responsible for my actions; only I am, just as only bush is for
his! ;-)"


To avoid confusion and to keep the lines of communication lines
open Lara E-mailed one of the groups on August 9th:

"I am writing because I would like to keep an open line of
communication... to keep you informed. I imagine disclosure and
knowledge on your part of my actions would be more helpful than
silence and surprise."


As the third week of the hunger strike began Lara received two
new indications that her efforts were not in vain. In addition
to all the people who had been motivated by he action, it was
learned that Charles Huffer, whose original contact with George
Bush had motivated Lara, was now motivated by Lara's action to
press again for his own answer from the White House.

On the August 11 'Strange days... Indeed' radio show broadcast
out of Toronto radio station CFRB, Lara appeared to update the
listening audience on how the hunger strike was progressing.
While on the air she received positive encouragement from
Washington D.C. UFO lobbyist Steven Bassett who was also a
guest. Bassett had been closely connected to the Disclosure
movement, and his words came as a comfort that the Disclosure
movement had come to grips with Lara's form of public protest.
Bassett spoke about Lara and the hunger strike.


I had talked with Lara at length (2 hours). What I think about
this is really straightforward. When the government looks out
the window, what it needs to see - particularly now in an ever
increasing degree - is a relentless public coming at them from
every different direction, very clearly not going to give up,
not going to go away. That means pacts, lobbyists, hunger
strikes, marches, and protests like we used to have. It means
political initiatives, press conferences, and the whole nine
yards. The more it sees that the more it will start to realize
that there is simply no where to go but toward us, with the
disclosure and with the truth.

Lara is adding another piece to that mosaic, and she knows what
she is doing. She's good at it. I knew this would happen, and I
think it's coming from a person that can do well. I have
indicated to her that when she gets a little further along,
because as you know these things tend to go for 60-80 days if
you're really serious, in which case Lara will be getting
requests to model in New York. In a little while when she is a
little further down the line I have every intention and every
capability to bring this to the attention of the entire
congress, as well as the political press here, and to the next
level of awareness.

It's her show, not mine. I will stay in the background. Getting
into the public is very easy. Whether she gets onto any of the
shows like Art Bell or Jeff Rense - well that's up to them. For
now it needs to build a little slowly. I think that's
appropriate. It's timing is excellent. The strategy is
wonderful. Tying it to the Bush statement, so that it can be a
matter between her and George Bush is wonderful. It's logical.
It's something that people know about. Huffer was there. It has
all been documented. The effect of it will be to bring new
attention to the Huffer event, which as you know came and went.
It is out on the net but in large is not news to the press
anymore, unless of course something like this happens. So all of
this works very nicely, and the timing is great as well... if
I'm Washington looking outside the beltway, I'm seeing this
stuff happening. Clearly I'm going to be getting a clear
impression that I can play deaf, dumb, and stupid, and this is
going to go away.


Upcoming Events

On Monday Day 17, Lara takes her hunger strike to the steps of
the federal courthouse in Oakland, to petition her Congress
woman Barbara Lee to write a letter to President Bush sharing
Lara's request for UFO Disclosure.

On Monday Day 17, Lara will be interviewed by the South African
News Service out of Washington. The media in South Africa
considers Lara the most prominent South African activist in the
United States.

Lara will be interviewed by host Adam Clark on the Wake Up
America website. Listen live at 8:00 p.m. Central Wednesday
August 17 at: http://wakeupusa.netfirms.com/

On Day 22, Saturday, August 18, at 10:30, Eastern, Lara
Johnstone will appear on 'Strange Days... Indeed' CFRB 1010 AM
Toronto, Canada for an update on her progress at: http://www.cfrb.com/







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               Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 21:35:07 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:59:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around


 >From: Marty Murray <mmurray31@home.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario
 >Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 01:21:48 -0400

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario
 >>Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 22:55:34 +0000

 >>>Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 17:32:57 -0400
 >>>To: "02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
 >>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario

 >>>Source: Rense.com

 >>>http://rense.com/general12/reportsofglow.htm

 >>>Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario

 >>Does anyone else detect a distinct aroma of rodent here? Just
 >>too damn pat for my taste. How would one Provincial cop have
 >>access to all this scattered information? I'll leave it to
 >>Ontario residents to assess the likelihood.

 >>Meanwhile, anonymous information is worthless on its own. But
 >>with this many alleged witnesses in one Province, it should be
 >>possible to smoke out at least a few confirming witnesses who
 >>are willing to go on record. If something of this alleged
 >>magnitude were going on, isolated witnesses would be looking for
 >>confirmation from others. I'm assuming Errol will put out a
 >>radio call for witnesses.

 >>My working hypothesis, however, is that this is a hoax. Go ahead
 >>and prove me wrong by finding evidence. I'm willing to discard
 >>my hypothesis on the basis of new evidence. That's science.

 >Howdy Richard!

 >This is a region of Ontario I am well familiar with, and these
 >various locations are not "widely scattered" as you surmised. In
 >fact most of these towns are located within a close distance of
 >each other, along Highway 6 running north from Guelph, Ontario.
 >It is mostly a rural area and it is not unusual to see
 >Mennonites driving horse and buggies through town.

 >I wouldn't be surprised if the same OPP officers didn't cover
 >the entire area described, hence this officer having access to
 >all this information. He may have been involved in some of the
 >investigations of the sightings himself, and no doubt knew the
 >officers who investigated the other ones. Nothing fishy at all
 >here, despite your suspicions.

 >Take care,

 >Marty

Marty,

Thanks for your input. I look forward to hearing directly from
some witnesses.

Dick









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   Aug > Aug 14

               Reed, Chacon & Aria [was: MUFON 2001 Symposium]

From: Kathleen Anderson <KAnder6444@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 18:15:25 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 10:18:43 -0400
Subject: Reed, Chacon & Aria  [was: MUFON 2001 Symposium]


 >From: Melvin Podell <mpodell@juno.com>
 >Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:44:18 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: MUFON 2001 Symposium

 >Jaime Maussan in addition to his excellent UFO videos presented
 >further evidence in support of the controversial Dr. Jonathan
 >Reed entity case.

 >Personally this conference has changed my views regarding the
 >Dr. Reed case which one time was thought to have little validity
 >but now has more credibility going for it.

Reed is akin to a bad penny. He keeps showing up in the most
unlikely places since 1996. I do have some insight to this case.

The people who are supporting people (those in West Seattle) are
pulling a fast one. I lived within one mile from Mr. Reed,
Harold and Bobby a/k/a Robert when I was let to believe as the
MUFON State Section Director he lived in Southern California.
They all knew me, knew my position and knew we were working on
the case.

 From Day one, the facts were not consistent, the area never
jived and  the plot excuse me... story has grown faster than a
mushroom in a dark room. Now I am receiving email from people
who paid for their copy of the book and are left holding the bag
with nothing.

Personally, I think the Washington State Attorney General needs
to look into the business operations  on California Avenue in
West Seattle and perhaps the post office since this is a mail
order business.

P.S. The case is officially being investigated by MUFON. Will
keep you posted.









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                 Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 15:43:36 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 10:21:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Gehrman


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com
 >Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:48:48 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Ed, if you believe that the things photographed on Ramey's
 >office floor don't resemble the Mogul radar reflectors, but
 >instead look to you like an alien spaceship, please say so.

Bob,

You have consistently declined our offer to view the Ft. Worth
debris evidence contained in the AA CD package, and you refuse
to acknowledge the information the RPIT has contributed to the
Roswell discussion. If you'd been paying attention, you wouldn't
have to ask silly questions since I've made my position on all
this completely clear.

But since you ask, and there's always time for redemption, I'll
answer best I can. I am well aware of Col. Weaver's report and
the makeup of the Mogul balloon train and reflectors and have in
fact published a detailed description of the Mogul along with
photos in the last issue of Flatland.

There is nothing on the floor in Gen. Ramey's office that
resembles a mogul balloon train. If there is, point it out to
me.

The debris does not look like an "alien spaceship" because there
are only fragments of material.

But those fragments contain numerous physical clues to their
genesis and do resemble witness descriptions of the Roswell
craft debris and the debris shown in the AA debris footage.

So to answer your question directly:

The debris on the office floor does not resemble a Mogul in any
way. What this debris actually is, if not a Mogul or weather
balloon, is what the RPIT would like to discuss. Why not order
the AA CDs and see the evidence for yourself? You don't really
want to seem so ignorant, do you?


Ed










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              Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 19:12:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 10:26:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect


 >Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 11:48:40 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect

 >I'm not surprised at Whitley's acceptance of this guest shot on
 >P.I. But then I haven't taken him 'seriously' for many years

<snip>

 >I hope Whitley represents us (abductees) well, anyway.

Depends on the Solar and Lunar cycles, as they dictate whether
Whitley's in his "They're our Benevolent Space Brothers!" mode
or his "Aaahh! They're Demons!" mode.

But, then again, I can sorta relate to that particular
confusion.











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   Aug > Aug 14

              Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect

From: Steve Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 19:24:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 10:34:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect


 >Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 11:48:40 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect

 >>Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:37:47 -0700 (PDT)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:54:30 -0500
 >>>Subject: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect
 >>>From: Stephen Miles Lewis <smiles@elfis.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>On August 23, Whitley Strieber will be at Bookpeople
 >>>in Austin, Texas at 7:00 PM.

 >>>He will also appear on Politically Incorrect (the television
 >>>show) on August 16 with comedian Kevin Nealon, skeptic Michael
 >>>Shermer and actress Marion Ross (Happy Days).

 >>Does anyone know why, exactly, Strieber is appearing
 >>alonside the obligatory "skeptic"? I thought Strieber
 >>was campaigning his new fiction book, "The Last
 >>Vampire."

 >>For that matter, who is Michael Shermer? I've never
 >>heard of him.

 >Hi All,

 >Politically Incorrect for all its pretensions of being a
 >"serious" talk show, is just a venue for its hosts (mostly)
 >vulgarian comedy. Several years ago Budd called me to ask if I
 >would be willing to appear with him on the David Letterman show.
 >After a brief moment of hesitation (I was astounded that he
 >would even consider it) I asked him if he was aware that
 >Letterman was a professional comedian, and that the point of
 >having us on could only be to lampoon and make light of UFO
 >abduction reports.

 >I'm not surprised at Whitley's acceptance of this guest shot on
 >P.I. But then I haven't taken him 'seriously' for many years
 >anyway. The reason for his acceptance has to be because he needs
 >to 'plug' the new book. It's a shame. I also wonder about where
 >Steve Bassett's "envy" comes from. What serious ufologist would
 >want to appear on a program that is only going to clothe the
 >phenom in even more ridicule?

 >I hope Whitley represents us (abductees) well, anyway.


John,

To answer your question: I'm not a ufologist, I'm a political
activist. Maher has had quite a few politicians on his show and
is pretty well connected. Who would argue that the UFO/ET issue
isn't "politically incorrect?" The show talks about every
controversial issue out there, why not this one. Getting in some
face time in front of an audience composed of millions of
iconoclasts with a host who feasts on government dogma - I'll
take that gig.


Steve B.








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               Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 20:44:55 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 10:41:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario
 >Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 21:35:07 +0000

 >>From: Marty Murray <mmurray31@home.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario
 >>Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 01:21:48 -0400

 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario
 >>>Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 22:55:34 +0000

 >>>>Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 17:32:57 -0400
 >>>>To: "02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
 >>>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario

 >>>>Source: Rense.com

 >>>>http://rense.com/general12/reportsofglow.htm

 >>>>Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario

 >>>Does anyone else detect a distinct aroma of rodent here? Just
 >>>too damn pat for my taste. How would one Provincial cop have
 >>>access to all this scattered information? I'll leave it to
 >>>Ontario residents to assess the likelihood.

 >>>Meanwhile, anonymous information is worthless on its own. But
 >>>with this many alleged witnesses in one Province, it should be
 >>>possible to smoke out at least a few confirming witnesses who
 >>>are willing to go on record. If something of this alleged
 >>>magnitude were going on, isolated witnesses would be looking for
 >>>confirmation from others. I'm assuming Errol will put out a
 >>>radio call for witnesses.

 >>>My working hypothesis, however, is that this is a hoax. Go ahead
 >>>and prove me wrong by finding evidence. I'm willing to discard
 >>>my hypothesis on the basis of new evidence. That's science.

 >>This is a region of Ontario I am well familiar with, and these
 >>various locations are not "widely scattered" as you surmised. In
 >>fact most of these towns are located within a close distance of
 >>each other, along Highway 6 running north from Guelph, Ontario.
 >>It is mostly a rural area and it is not unusual to see
 >>Mennonites driving horse and buggies through town.

 >>I wouldn't be surprised if the same OPP officers didn't cover
 >>the entire area described, hence this officer having access to
 >>all this information. He may have been involved in some of the
 >>investigations of the sightings himself, and no doubt knew the
 >>officers who investigated the other ones. Nothing fishy at all
 >>here, despite your suspicions.

 >Thanks for your input. I look forward to hearing directly from
 >some witnesses.


Hi Dick,

There was a time some years ago where the police - whether town,
city,municipal in some Provinces the Provincial Police or the
RCMP would be open about UFO reports, admitting to having
sightings themselves, but not anymore. I've noticed this
reticence of the police to comment or even report their
sightings other than anonymously. The police here range over
large areas of territory. The RCMP for example will patrol a
stretch of highway well over 100 miles [during the Shag Harbour
sightings, one Mountie [Ron O'Brien] was nearly 200 miles out of
his Division], working from as they call it Sub-Division to
Sub-Division as a 'floater' unit - beefing up their presence in
a given area - staying in a motel for a couple of days then
moving further along as his or her presence is required,
eventually returning to the larger detachment in a large town or
city after 5 or 6 days on the road.

The reason for this is low population density in a huge country.
Since Ontario is about the size of Eastern Europe you can see
how the OPP would be spread out and covering large amounts of
territory.

Whether this is a hoax or not I have no way of knowing. But some
of the reasons stated, such as the mention of too large a
territory for one police officer having covered and the
annonymity doesn't give me reason to suspect a hoax for the
reasons I stated above.

There was an email to Art Bell a couple of summers ago by a
police officer - reporting a UFO here in Nova Scotia and
requesting annonymity. He and his partner apparently sighted a
huge triangular shaped object, one eighth mile on a side.

On his show, Bell called the officer [while not mentioning his
name] however he got the officer's wife who told Artt he was on
duty. Since the policeman mentioned they lived in an area where
there were military bases I figured he was from the Halifax
region, the only place in Nova Scotia where there is more than
one military base.

I tried for months [ie several months later I got Whitley
Strieber to ask Art if he had the email address who replied that
he couldn't find it at that point] to get these two policemen to
come forward, by posting requests in every cop-shop within 50
miles of Halifax without success.


Best,

Don Ledger









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   Aug > Aug 14

              Re: The Forest Has Eyes... Red Ones - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 23:32:34 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 13:23:10 -0400
Subject: Re: The Forest Has Eyes... Red Ones - Mortellaro


 >Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:28:34 -0500
 >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >Subject: The Forest Has Eyes... Red Ones


 >This may be a little off-topic, but I would love to get some
 >input from the very knowledgeable crowd that hangs around this
 >List. I have some pictures up on my webpage that are very odd.
 >Some of those "what the hell is that?" sort of things.

 >http://www.jilain.com/ufo/paranormal/creek.htm

 >Take a look if you get a free minute and let me know what
 >you think.


Dear Bobbie, All and Errol;

At first I was going to make some fun at the pics on the URL you
gave above. But then I decided to take it quite seriously and
make the attempt at some logical explanation. So I thought long
and hard. For me, "long" is about four, maybe five seconds. And
"hard" is the kind of liquid I require in order to concentrate
on anything that long.

So I poured me a cup of hard Gripple, drank it and then grunted
for that length of time it was necessary to concentrate in order
to come to a conclusion... which is to say, about four, naybe
five seconds. Suddenly and to my surprise, I found what the
thingy is. But then the Gripple wore off, and I can't for the
life of me remember.

And because this is so important to you, Bobbie, I wanted to
recover the memory. So I had me another hard cup a hard Gripple
and thought about it yet again. It came to me again and then, I
forgotted it again. So an udda trinka rhardend Pipple an I
tought I taw a putty ta.....

ZZZZzzzzzzzzzz!

Nitey nite... don't (hic) Liet the Kines boogers bite...zzzzzz









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               Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 20:53:55 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 13:24:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around


 >From: Marty Murray <mmurray31@home.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario
 >Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 01:21:48 -0400

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario
 >>Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 22:55:34 +0000

 >>>Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 17:32:57 -0400
 >>>To: "02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
 >>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario

 >>>Source: Rense.com

 >>>http://rense.com/general12/reportsofglow.htm

 >>>Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario

 >>>08-11-01

 >>>Hello,

 >>>I'm a police constable for the OPP (Ontario Provincial Police)
 >>>and I am taking a huge risk to deliver this information to you.
 >>>For the past three months there have been very unsual things
 >>>happening around the local areas I work in. This is the first
 >>>time ever that things of this nature have been reported in this
 >>>area.

 >>>All police agencies in this area were ordered not to release or
 >>>acknowledge the reports being made, orders came in from main HQ.
 >>>Reports are now being sent in to the military so I was only able
 >>>to access and copy a few reports without being noticed. I have
 >>>family in this area and I am very worried that something serious
 >>>is going on in this area. This email was created for single time
 >>>use,on a public computer....so don't bother replying to this
 >>>email address.

 >>>Reports are below.

 >>>UFOs

 >>>June 28,2001 9:30PM East of Arthur, Ont. Canada. 5 Witnesses

 >>>Event Description: A orange glowing object was seen hovering 100
 >>>metres above a small wooded area. The object began to glow
 >>>brighter and vanished. Five minutes later the object reappeared
 >>>in the same spot and began moving until it was no longer
 >>>visible.

 ><snip>

 >>Does anyone else detect a distinct aroma of rodent here? Just
 >>too damn pat for my taste. How would one Provincial cop have
 >>access to all this scattered information? I'll leave it to
 >>Ontario residents to assess the likelihood.

 >>Meanwhile, anonymous information is worthless on its own. But
 >>with this many alleged witnesses in one Province, it should be
 >>possible to smoke out at least a few confirming witnesses who
 >>are willing to go on record. If something of this alleged
 >>magnitude were going on, isolated witnesses would be looking for
 >>confirmation from others. I'm assuming Errol will put out a
 >>radio call for witnesses.

 >>My working hypothesis, however, is that this is a hoax. Go ahead
 >>and prove me wrong by finding evidence. I'm willing to discard
 >>my hypothesis on the basis of new evidence. That's science.

 >>Dick

 >Howdy Richard!

 >This is a region of Ontario I am well familiar with, and these
 >various locations are not "widely scattered" as you surmised. In
 >fact most of these towns are located within a close distance of
 >each other, along Highway 6 running north from Guelph, Ontario.
 >It is mostly a rural area and it is not unusual to see
 >Mennonites driving horse and buggies through town.

 >I wouldn't be surprised if the same OPP officers didn't cover
 >the entire area described, hence this officer having access to
 >all this information. He may have been involved in some of the
 >investigations of the sightings himself, and no doubt knew the
 >officers who investigated the other ones. Nothing fishy at all
 >here, despite your suspicions.

 >Take care,

 >Marty


Hello Marty:

Thanks for the details. Perhaps a better question might be:
"What kept all of this out of the news?"

Newsmen jump all over stories like this (often garbling them
beyond recognition of course) because people want to read about
them.

Here we have case after case, multiple witnesses, and the local
press is entirely in the dark about them? I find that hard to
envision.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                Re: Where To Archive Diaries, Etc.? - Cammack

From: Diana Cammack <cammack@eomw.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 10:37:10 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 13:29:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Where To Archive Diaries, Etc.? - Cammack


 >Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 13:58:08 -0400
 >Subject: Where To Archive Diaries, Etc.?
 >From: Will Bueche - PEER <peer@peermack.org>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >Elderly people who have had a lifetime of alien encounter
 >experiences sometimes call PEER seeking a place to donate their diaries
 >before they pass away.

<snip>

 >Is anyone aware of any institutions that archive this sort of
 >material? Perhaps there are some libraries that save diaries
 >regardless of content (that is, whether alien encounters are
 >present or not)?

 >>Will Bueche
 >PEER

List,

The problem is not just diaries, but other materials. But
'ufology' is politicised with divisions and personal
animosities, that it seems impossible to recommend that one of
the organisations (eg MUFON, CUFOS, NIDS etc) archive all
materials.

Instead, I would think that an indept library with an open mind
and good archivist should be approached, to house such
materials.

My friend Cynthia Hind (Zimbabwe) recently died and I have
wondered what happened not only to her books, but to her field
notes, interviews with kids (at the bush school), investigations
with experiences in SA and elsewhere, book research materials,
etc....

These sorts of materials, plus diaries, photos, obscure news
reports, etc should be put together in a library which has high
standards and quality control. I would think a university
library might be the best.

I would suggest Harvard because Mack is there, but maybe the
library would think such materials are nonsense? Perhaps
Stanford or Cal Tech, or MIT, or ?

Its a matter of finding a library that collects alternative
materials - Duke must for its parapsychology courses? - or an
interest in space (Embry Riddell?)

Is there not an archivist or librarian or academic on the List
with the name of a likely university to approach?


Diana
(Malawi)








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             Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 07:48:35 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 13:31:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Velez


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 13 Aug 2001 14:06:22 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Day 16

 >Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Day 16

Hello All,

Due to a death in my family I have been away from the List for
several weeks. Like Michael Corleone, no matter how hard I try
to stay away, "they drag me back in!"  ;) I am writing because
this is one I cannot allow to pass without comment.

Lara seems like a sincere person of strong conviction. Abductees
are sending her letters of support and she is being "encouraged"
in her hunger strike by folks from all points on the compass. As
strongly as I believe in UFO disclosure I cannot (in good
conscience) support anything that will put someone's health or
Life in danger.

Although this grandstand hunger strike may help to attract some
attention to the subject, at what price? Do any of the people
who are egging her on with letters of support care about this
person's well being? Has anyone tried to counsel her about the
foolishness of risking her health for something that can be
accomplished without risk to human life? Has everybody gone
completely bonkers while I was away?

Again, I am in complete agreement with her "cause." It is her
"methods" I am questioning. Reality Check: George Bush Jr. is
busy playing golf. He is -not,- repeat, NOT) going to respond
directly to this sacrificial (albeit noble) effort from Lara.

What will most likely happen if Lara persists is that her body
and health will begin to deteriorate (dangerously) at some
point, and unless she is in tip-top physical condition, she will
suffer/pay the consequences.

Instead of "encouraging" her we should all be pleading with her
to put an end to this folly before harmful or irreversible
effects from her hunger strike are visited upon her person.

Lara: Please, reconsider this (personally) dangerous course of
action you have taken. I am ready and willing to support you in
any way in order to get the presidents attention. But as I have
already stated, I cannot in good conscience support anything
that is going to endanger your life or your continued well
being.

As for the rest of her alleged "supporters": If anything bad
happens to Lara because of your encouragement, may it burn a
hole in your thoughtless (for Lara) heads for the rest of your
natural lives.


Most sincerely,

John Velez
On the side of sanity!








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   Aug > Aug 14

                 Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 14 Aug 2001 06:42:06 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 13:35:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Hamilton


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com
 >Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:48:48 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:18:16 -0700

 >>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 09:48:29 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>while you're correct that Karl has made an important
 >>contribution to Roswell research, his conclusions are dead wrong
 >>and dumb. ( find an identifiable piece of the mogul on the floor
 >>of Gen. Ramey's office)

 >See:

 >REPORT OF AIR FORCE RESEARCH REGARDING THE
 >"ROSWELL INCIDENT" July 1994 By Col. Richard L. Weaver

 >Specifically, the following Attachments:

 >16. July 9, 1947 Photos of Balloon Wreckage, Ft Worth Star
 >    Telegram

 >21. Signed Sworn Statement of Charles Moore, June 8, 1994, a
 >    man who launched the Mogul balloons arrays.

 >23. Transcript of Interview with Moore, June 8, 1994

 >25. Illustration of Project Mogul "Balloon Trains"

 >26. Two Photos of Project Mogul "Balloon Trains"

 >27. Log Summary, NYU Constant Level Balloon Flights

 >29. Copy of Blueprint for "Pilot Balloon Target, NM-307C/AP
 >    Assembly"

 >Ed, if you believe that the things photographed on Ramey's
 >office floor don't resemble the Mogul radar reflectors, but
 >instead look to you like an alien spaceship, please say so.

I believe, specifically, that the debris on the floor in Ramey's
office is mostly that of a Rawin radar target (possibly the
ML-307B) used not just by Project Mogul, but hung from weather
balloons.

It appears to be aluminum foil laminated to paper and supported
by balsa wood struts. As retired General Thomas DuBose said in
interviews it was a cover story. There is no way the target was
strewn out over 3/4 mile on the Foster Ranch.


Bill Hamilton

A true believer in your book. :)








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                 Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 14 Aug 2001 06:57:51 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 13:39:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Hamilton


 >Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:06:45 -0400
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>From: Gldas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 12:18:20 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 13:46:03 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>Subject: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>To: UfoUpdates <ufoupdates@home.com>>

 >>>ROSWELL: Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe >

 >>>by Karl Pflock

 >>>reviewed by Mac Tonnies

 >>May I add a personal comment, along the same line as Durant.
 >>There is another key witnesses: the man who spent the all day on
 >>the debris field with Marcel: Captain Sheridan Cavitt. When
 >>interviewed by Colonel Weaver for the Air Force in 1994, (the 30
 >>pages interview is in the AF Roswell Report), Cavitt stuck to
 >>the first "explanation", the one of an ordinary weather balloon.

 >>If the purpose had been, in 1947, to protect the top-secret
 >>Mogul balloons, in 1994 Cavitt did not have to do that any more!
 >>If that's what he had found, he should have said to Weaver: "Oh
 >>yes, I remember now, the cluster of balloons, radar targets
 >>reinforced with flower decorated tape, instruments etc." But
 >>no, he did not find that, only a miserable weather balloon. >

 >>If only Cavitt had been willing to vouch for the Mogul story,
 >>that would have probably put an end to the Roswell case. Instead
 >>of that, when Weaver asked him his opinion of Karl Pflock, he
 >>replied: "He's our chief debunker. I lean toward him".
 >
 >For an analysis of the Cavitt testimony see Did Sheridan Cavitt
 >Visit the Same Crash Site or CAVITT EMPTOR at:

 >htt://brumac.8k.com

Ok, Bruce, I read it all. Very interesting, but your footnote
concludes that Cavitt lied in his testimony to Weaver. Do you
still stand behind that conclusion? And, have you seen anything
that further substantiates this conclusion?

Bill Hamilton (curious)









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               Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 14 Aug 2001 07:04:13 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 13:41:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey - Hamilton


 >From: Robert Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:58:44 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Date: 11 Aug 2001 20:18:19 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 22:46:53 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Orange 'Flares' Over New Jersey
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>The difference between my approach and yours is that you assume
 >>>that every little light in the sky that the witnesses can't
 >>>identify must be a UFO, where I assume that the witness just
 >>>doesn't recognize what they're looking toward. See, then you can
 >>>start with a list like, Planets, Stars, airplanes, etc.

 >>Good grief! You know nothing about my approach. I usually
 >>dismiss little lights in the sky in 99% of the cases. I always
 >>start with the usual list like planets, stars, aircraft of any
 >>sort, meteors, or even reflected ground lights, but after
 >>considering most of these and not finding a match, then I dig
 >>deeper.

 >Bill:

 >Like your "Skydancer" UFOs, dancing around in hand-held binocs
 >where Venus was in the daytime sky? Please see:

 >http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/nov/m28-014.shtml

Bob,

I answered that one much to your embarrassment. I had videotaped
two skydancers (two Venuses) with one moving past the other one.
Must have been a Venusian mirage.

Say, I just had a thought. You could replace Donald Menzel. Oh,
but you have.


Bill Hamilton








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                 Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 14 Aug 2001 07:21:45 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 13:52:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Hamilton


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:18:16 -0700

 >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 09:48:29 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>Despite Pflock quoting literally pages of witness testimony to
 >>unusual material properties in the Roswell debris throughout his
 >>book and repeatedly reciting it to the point of redundancy (AP
 >>reporter Kellahin's description of the material is quoted twice
 >>on the same page, p. 153), and presenting an extremely valuable
 >>collection of 50 pages of witness interview transcripts and
 >>affidavits,

 >I just purchased Pflock's "Roswell' yesterday and expected a
 >$26, typical debunking hack-job but was surprised to find an
 >interesting, fact-filled, hack-job instead.

I think you hit the nail on the head here, Ed.

 >And while you're correct that Karl has made an important
 >contribution to Roswell research, his conclusions are dead wrong
 >and dumb. (find an identifiable piece of the mogul on the floor
 >of Gen. Ramey's office) This it is not the fault of the
 >information that Pflock has gathered together, but his own spin
 >on the details.

Agreed. Marcel's large field-size estimate is a vital factor as
well as descriptions of the material found by those who handled
it and that does not logically lead to Pflock's conclusion.

The field-size was estimated to be about 4,000 ft long (3/4
mile) by about 250 feet wide. That is about 1,000,000 square
feet.

Assuming that to be a maximum and assuming the debris field to
be uneven in shape, we can still estimate that the ground was
covered by about 6,000 square feet of material.

Assuming half this size and about 3,000 square feet of thin
metallic material (no identifiable remnants of neoprene balloons
seemed to have been mentioned), then how do we reconcile this
with Rawin targets which had a total of 54 square feet of
surface area. Lets see now - that would be around 55 Rawin
targets.

Hmmm... new theory.

Someone disposed of old Rawin targets on the Foster Ranch and
paid him a fee for it. No balloons needed. How is that for
imaginative skepticism?


Bill Hamilton








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                          Voyager Newsletter No. 19

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 15:22:03 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 13:56:51 -0400
Subject: Voyager Newsletter No. 19


Voyager Newsletter No. 19


'RENDLESHAM' - A REPORT OF RESEARCH DEVELOPMENTS

In March, 1998, I published 'Rendlesham Unravelled', which
revealed the existence of those pivotal witness statements
dating from shortly after the late December 1980, Rendlesham
forest 'UFO' incidents.

The full publication is online, at:

http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/cover.htm

'Voyager Newsletter No. 17' explained how in a recent book, 'You
Can't Tell the People', by Georgina Bruni, it was alleged these
statements were false and she had been told by Col. Halt that he
had not written the notes

[...]

I know this much... I can prove the notes _were_ in fact written
by Halt.

It's not that difficult to do so and there was a blatant clue
which Bruni should perhaps have spotted.

[...]

Proving this, is essentially stating the obvious. The contents
of those notes could only conceivably have been written by Halt.

[...]

Aside from any such speculation, further confirmation of their
authenticity can be found in 'The 1980 Rendlesham Forest UFO
Encounter', an audio CD [or video] of Col. Charles Halt's
lecture at Prince Georges County Community College, MD on 23
August, 1997.

It can be purchased from the 'Fund for UFO Research'...

[...]

I'm pleased to reveal a remarkable and previously unpublished
photograph, taken earlier that year from the SPCDS Tower at RAF
Bentwaters. A high resolution scan has been uploaded to my web
site, at:

http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/wsa1.jpg

This shows a view of the Weapons Storage Area [WSA] and
surrounding landscape, looking towards Eyke village.

At the far side is the Security Police [SP] Assessment Tower.

Just before this, at the end of the 'hot row', are separate,
taller, earth covered bunkers. On top were the Defensive
Fighting Positions [DFPs].

This was apparently where Sgt Randy Smith duly took up a
'fighting position' during the second 'UFO' scare (when Lt. Col.
Halt's team ventured into Rendlesham forest to investigate
reports that the 'UFO' was back).

Sgt Smith's full account can be read here:

http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/newslet4.htm

[...]

Another rarely available photograph shows the SPCDS tower's
interior at night. This is the same view as before, only it's
now somewhat darker outside! - see:

http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/tower.jpg

Conditions would be similar to when Sgt Smith and others were
crowded into the tower that 'second' night, looking for reported
'UFOs'.

Kathy notes that only the Munitions Maintenance Squadron were
authorised to enter the bunkers.

A new witness I recently located is Mike Jenkins, who was NCOIC
of the Munitions Maintenance Shop at Woodbridge and then moved
to 'Bentwaters Missile Maintenance'. Mike has a strange tale to
tell and which he dates as occurring during some 'UFO'
excitement, specifically the morning after 'Lt. Col. Halt went
out on the night shift'.

If we could be sure about the dating, Mike's claims could have a
profound effect on the entire 'UFO' scenario.

He recalls:

"When I came in the next morning, all I saw was a lot of our
staff in uniform and in civilian dress, posted about the weapons
storage area, and everyone being told to not ask questions, just
do our jobs. To me it appeared to be no more than a regular
training or alert drill after which there is normally a higher
level of visible security at the twin bases anyway".

[...]

Those exercises with the Territorial Army actually took place
during April 1980. As we shall see, he is correct in pointing
out that the WSA at RAF Woodbridge was used during this mock
incursion, not the WSA at RAF Bentwaters. The reason why will
also become clear.

[...]

Senior Airman Kenneth Greene was assigned to RAF Bentwaters
security from May 1977 to May 1980 and was the primary 'D'
Flight SPCDS operator.

His recent contributions to case research have been immense,
exceptionally helpful and gratefully appreciated.

"The Orford Ness lighthouse _could not_ be seen from the SPCDS
Tower, in case you did not know".

"I also pulled occasional duty at the Woodbridge East Gate on
the midnight shift. East Gate at the time was a small telephone
booth sized wood shack with a small sandbag bunker adjacent to
it. The shack was located off the road. I can verify that the
Orford Ness lighthouse was not visible from that location
either".

"We never heard about or observed any unusual lights in the
forest that had a known explanation during my time at
Bentwaters. In fact, during my three years at Bentwaters I can
not recall any incidents of unusual lights in the forest".

"I have read Larry Warren's 'Left at East Gate'. I did not know
Mr. Warren, but in my opinion he has a credibility problem".

"Coincidentally, Today I received Georgina Bruni's 'You Can't
Tell the People'. I quickly leafed through it and immediately
recognized a bunch of names".

Kenneth also identified Airman Egercic in one of the book's
photographs, noting, "I worked with and knew him quite well!".

There are also some apparent discrepancies, as Kenneth
explained:

"On the last page of photographs there is a picture of a
'controlled area' sign for the Command Post. The Command Post
was actually designated a 'Restricted Area' which is a higher
security rating than a 'controlled area'. 'Restricted Areas'
required authorized personnel be issued a special identity
badge.

If you look at the picture of Airman Egercic in the photo
section, you will see that he is wearing his restricted area
badge and I can tell from the photo that the badge is coded for
entry into the Bentwaters WSA".

"Georgina Bruni comments how we drove on the right hand side of
the road at the twin bases. This is false! In the photograph
section of 'Left at East Gate,' there is a picture that clearly
shows vehicle traffic on the base driving in accordance with the
British 'left hand side' standard. It would not make any sense
to switch sides of the road going from off to on base and vice
versa".

Asked about Larry Warren's claims that there was a 'secret
underground base', Kenneth remarks, "I say the 'underground
facilities' are a complete fantasy!".

An often referred to aspect is how weak radio communications
were during the 'UFO encounters', possibly affected by a source
of 'static' in the vicinity.

[...]

"One thing I would like to mention is that radio communications
between Bentwaters and Woodbridge were poor. Some of the
Woodbridge posts could communicate directly with Bentwaters
depending on their location at Woodbridge, but for the most part
radio transmissions between the two bases were inadequate. In
fact, we had to create a special post at Woodbridge just to
relay radio transmissions between the two bases".

[...]

As Kenneth has experience of radio transmissions from within
Rendlesham forest, he was able to offer a first-hand assessment:

"In fact, during the war games, we utilized the 'bricks' in the
forest and they were absolutely worthless as far as I'm
concerned. We had a terrible time trying to communicate with
each other. I personally believe it had something to do with the
density of the trees in the forest".

"I am intrigued by Col Halt's statement regarding radio
communications: 'There were dead spots outside the base, but we
knew where those were and they were never in this area before'.
I can't for the life of me figure out why we would have known
about off base radio dead spots. We had no business off base so
why be concerned about radio transmissions from off base
locations?

Secondly, we were never even advised as to locations of on base
radio dead spots!

[...]

I am also a former Air National Guard reserve SP and was trained
by the reserves to estimate the height of aircraft. Take your
hand and hold it at arms length in front of your face with the
thumb resting on the horizon. You can now rudimentarily measure
height in degrees. One finger covers approximately 2 degrees,
one hand (palm and thumb) covers approximately 10 degrees. With
this reference in mind, the object observed and reported by LTC
Halt would not have been high enough in the sky to be observed
by the personnel at B/W.

Secondly, imagine the face of a clock. The B/W WSA would have
been at the one o'clock position, the W/B WSA at the seven
o'clock position, and LTC Halt and crew at about three o'clock
most likely facing the nine o'clock position. I can not see him
confusing the location between the areas as they were almost
opposite of each other and separated by the forest and W/B
runway. I believe that he was referring to the B/W WSA when he
states '...continued to send down beams of light, at one point
near the weapons storage facility'."

[...]

There's one last notable photograph which research has brought
to light and we are indebted to local researcher Robert McLean.

Robert has located the 'landing site' where Larry Warren claims
other military personnel and himself had a traumatic encounter
with a 'UFO' in Rendlesham forest.

This is a separate event, which supposedly took place on the
same night as Lt. Col. Halt et al were involved.

The many areas of difficulty with Warren's tales are well known
and have been addressed in previous newsletters.

That acknowledged, this is Robert's report of his
investigations:

[...]

Robert McLean has kindly also permitted that I can upload a
photograph he took, on 12 May 2001, of Warren's 'landing site'
and it can be seen at:

http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/warrsite.jpg.

That, however, is not the notable photograph referred to.

Robert has also obtained some aerial shots of the locale and one
of these, taken by the Royal Air Force [RAF], captures Larry
Warren's 'UFO landing site' in detail...


The full newsletter can be obtained online at:

http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/v19.txt


Editor: James Easton
E-mail: editor@voyagermag.com
www.ufoworld.co.uk








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              Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 11:09:05 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:21:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect


 >Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 19:12:14 -0400
 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
 >Subject: Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 11:48:40 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect

 >>I'm not surprised at Whitley's acceptance of this guest shot on
 >>P.I. But then I haven't taken him 'seriously' for many years

 ><snip>

Hiya Ron,

 >>I hope Whitley represents us (abductees) well, anyway.

 >Depends on the Solar and Lunar cycles, as they dictate whether
 >Whitley's in his "They're our Benevolent Space Brothers!" mode
 >or his "Aaahh! They're Demons!" mode.

Let's see which personality 'Sybil' presents that night.  <LOL>

 >But, then again, I can sorta relate to that particular
 >confusion.

I have to admit... me too!  ;)


Warm regards,

John Velez










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              Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 11:19:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:34:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect


 >From: Steve Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 19:24:50 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 11:48:40 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect

 >>>Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:37:47 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>>Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:54:30 -0500
 >>>>Subject: Strieber In Austin & On Politically Incorrect
 >>>>From: Stephen Miles Lewis <smiles@elfis.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>>On August 23, Whitley Strieber will be at Bookpeople
 >>>>in Austin, Texas at 7:00 PM.

 >>>>He will also appear on Politically Incorrect (the television
 >>>>show) on August 16 with comedian Kevin Nealon, skeptic Michael
 >>>>Shermer and actress Marion Ross (Happy Days).

 >>>Does anyone know why, exactly, Strieber is appearing
 >>>alonside the obligatory "skeptic"? I thought Strieber
 >>>was campaigning his new fiction book, "The Last
 >>>Vampire."

 >>>For that matter, who is Michael Shermer? I've never
 >>>heard of him.

 >>Hi All,

 >>Politically Incorrect for all its pretensions of being a
 >>"serious" talk show, is just a venue for its hosts (mostly)
 >>vulgarian comedy. Several years ago Budd called me to ask if I
 >>would be willing to appear with him on the David Letterman show.
 >>After a brief moment of hesitation (I was astounded that he
 >>would even consider it) I asked him if he was aware that
 >>Letterman was a professional comedian, and that the point of
 >>having us on could only be to lampoon and make light of UFO
 >>abduction reports.

 >>I'm not surprised at Whitley's acceptance of this guest shot on
 >>P.I. But then I haven't taken him 'seriously' for many years
 >>anyway. The reason for his acceptance has to be because he needs
 >>to 'plug' the new book. It's a shame. I also wonder about where
 >>Steve Bassett's "envy" comes from. What serious ufologist would
 >>want to appear on a program that is only going to clothe the
 >>phenom in even more ridicule?

 >>I hope Whitley represents us (abductees) well, anyway.


Hi Steve,

You wrote:

 >John,
 >
 >To answer your question: I'm not a ufologist, I'm a political
 >activist. Maher has had quite a few politicians on his show and
 >is pretty well connected. Who would argue that the UFO/ET issue
 >isn't "politically incorrect?" The show talks about every
 >controversial issue out there, why not this one.

Maher is a comedian first and foremost. And a cynical one at
that. Kind of like an un-funny Mort Sahl. I don't consider
comedy venues (in spite of the programs' pretension to be a
serious talk show) to be a very good place to discuss the topic
of UFOs. It's why I postulated in my original that Whitley's
motivation for participating in this program is 'probably' more
to hawk the new book as opposed to making a serious case for the
reality of UFOs or the abduction phenomenon.

To each his own.

 >Getting in some face time in front of an audience composed of
 >millions of iconoclasts with a host who feasts on government
 >dogma - I'll take that gig.

My first question to producers who are contacting me with an
invitation to appear in front of a camera is; "Is this program
going to be presented as 'news' or entertainment?" It's why you
don't see my face on the boob tube very often now-a-days. I
take this subject way too seriously to do otherwise. I'm more
interested in how the subject matter is going to be handled and
presented than I am in how many asses are going to be in the
seats. I understand that your point of approach is political in
nature, but in spite of that, the venue _does_ matter.

But then, we all have our own priorities eh?  ;)


Regards,

John Velez








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                         'UFO/Anthropoid Catalogue'?

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 16:25:10 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:36:23 -0400
Subject: 'UFO/Anthropoid Catalogue'?


Hi All,

Does anybody know where I can get a copy of the booklet
'UFO/Anthropoid Catalogue' by Mark Moravec from Australia?


Roy

Down To Earth Magazine on The Net
http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk









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   Aug > Aug 14

                    Humanoid Contact Database 1990 Online

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 16:29:44 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:38:10 -0400
Subject: Humanoid Contact Database 1990 Online


Hi All,

I have just uploaded the Humanoid Contacts for 1990
by Albert S. Rosales. You can find these at:

http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/conthumanoid.html

I hope this data is of some help for researchers.


Regards,

Roy








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                  Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:07:59 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:42:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Young


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: 14 Aug 2001 06:42:06 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com
 >>Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:48:48 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:18:16 -0700

 >I believe, specifically, that the debris on the floor in Ramey's
 >office is mostly that of a Rawin radar target (possibly the
 >ML-307B) used not just by Project Mogul, but hung from weather
 >balloons.

 >It appears to be aluminum foil laminated to paper and supported
 >by balsa wood struts. As retired General Thomas DuBose said in
 >interviews it was a cover story.

Bill:

I agree.

Marcel also claimed this, although he did say that one picture
was the actual debris and the other (s?) part of the cover. I
think this later claim of his was refuted by an examination of
the entire pixs frames in the roll of film, as pointed out by
Mark Rodeghier years ago in an article in IUR.

I think that Ed reveals his lack of reliability as a photo
interpreter by not noticing the resemblance. His fascination
with the phony Alien Autopsy film doesn't add much confidence,
either.

 >There is no way the target was strewn out over 3/4 mile on the
 >Foster Ranch.

Well, it would depend upon how thinly spread out it was, or if
it was in pieces.


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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                  Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:21:04 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:51:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Young


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: 14 Aug 2001 07:21:45 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'

 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:18:16 -0700

<snip>

 >Hmmm... new theory.

 >Someone disposed of old Rawin targets on the Foster Ranch and
 >paid him a fee for it. No balloons needed. How is that for
 >imaginative skepticism?

Bill,

Now you're cookin'.

Of course, applying Ocham's Razor suggests that everything being
equal, one of the balloon trains that are known to have been
launched, such as the one launched on June 4, with more than one
target attached, just happened to come down there.


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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               Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around

From: Marty Murray <mmurray31@home.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:40:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:56:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around


 >Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 20:53:55 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario

 >>From: Marty Murray <mmurray31@home.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Glowing Discs, Orbs & Strange Beings Around Ontario
 >>Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 01:21:48 -0400

<snip>

 >Hello Marty:

 >Thanks for the details. Perhaps a better question might be:
 >"What kept all of this out of the news?"

 >Newsmen jump all over stories like this (often garbling them
 >beyond recognition of course) because people want to read about
 >them.

 >Here we have case after case, multiple witnesses, and the local
 >press is entirely in the dark about them? I find that hard to
 >envision.


Howdy Larry!

As I mentioned, this region is quite rural and the towns in
question are very small. Something like this would no doubt be
big news among the local residents, as not much goes on up
there. Whether it would make it to the papers is another
question.

All I can tell you is that I haven't read a UFO report in a
paper for years, neither the large Toronto publications or the
smaller local ones.

Something may have been printed in one of the small town papers,
but whether a reporter would bother to drive up from Guelph, the
nearest big city, to investigate this, I kind of doubt it.

If it was all kept quiet, as the officer claims, then it would
take one of the witnesses approaching a paper his or herself to
get this out, and whether it would be printed even so, who
knows?


Take care,

Marty









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   Aug > Aug 15

             Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 20:55:59 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 04:45:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Hall


 >Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 07:48:35 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: 13 Aug 2001 14:06:22 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Day 16

 >>Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Day 16

 >Hello All,

 >Due to a death in my family I have been away from the List for
 >several weeks. Like Michael Corleone, no matter how hard I try
 >to stay away, "they drag me back in!"  ;) I am writing because
 >this is one I cannot allow to pass without comment.

 >Lara seems like a sincere person of strong conviction. Abductees
 >are sending her letters of support and she is being "encouraged"
 >in her hunger strike by folks from all points on the compass. As
 >strongly as I believe in UFO disclosure I cannot (in good
 >conscience) support anything that will put someone's health or
 >Life in danger.

 >Although this grandstand hunger strike may help to attract some
 >attention to the subject, at what price? Do any of the people
 >who are egging her on with letters of support care about this
 >person's well being? Has anyone tried to counsel her about the
 >foolishness of risking her health for something that can be
 >accomplished without risk to human life? Has everybody gone
 >completely bonkers while I was away?

 >Again, I am in complete agreement with her "cause." It is her
 >"methods" I am questioning. Reality Check: George Bush Jr. is
 >busy playing golf. He is -not,- repeat, NOT) going to respond
 >directly to this sacrificial (albeit noble) effort from Lara.

 >What will most likely happen if Lara persists is that her body
 >and health will begin to deteriorate (dangerously) at some
 >point, and unless she is in tip-top physical condition, she will
 >suffer/pay the consequences.

 >Instead of "encouraging" her we should all be pleading with her
 >to put an end to this folly before harmful or irreversible
 >effects from her hunger strike are visited upon her person.

 >Lara: Please, reconsider this (personally) dangerous course of
 >action you have taken. I am ready and willing to support you in
 >any way in order to get the presidents attention. But as I have
 >already stated, I cannot in good conscience support anything
 >that is going to endanger your life or your continued well
 >being.

 >As for the rest of her alleged "supporters": If anything bad
 >happens to Lara because of your encouragement, may it burn a
 >hole in your thoughtless (for Lara) heads for the rest of your
 >natural lives.

John,

Condolences on your loss. I, for one, am very glad to have the
return of your "voice of sanity".


Non-bonkers in Brentwood,

Dick










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                Re: Where To Archive Diaries, Etc.? - Gonzlez

From: Luis R. Gonzlez Manso <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 22:38:25 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 04:47:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Where To Archive Diaries, Etc.? - Gonzlez


 >From: Diana Cammack <cammack@eomw.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Where To Archive Diaries, Etc.?
 >Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 10:37:10 +0100

 >Is anyone aware of any institutions that archive this sort of
 >material? Perhaps there are some libraries that save diaries
 >regardless of content (that is, whether alien encounters are
 >present or not)?

Here in Spain, Fundacin Anomalia (www.anomalia.org) was founded
precisely with that intention (among others). Unfortunately, we
have a very small budget so we would be unable to cover even the
shipping costs!

Yours,

Luis R. Gonzlez Manso








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                    Re: Voyager Newsletter No. 19 - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 22:37:44 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 04:51:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Voyager Newsletter No. 19 - Bruni


 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Voyager Newsletter No. 19
 >Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 15:22:03 +0100 (BST)
 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>

 >'Voyager Newsletter No. 17' explained how in a recent book, 'You
 >Can't Tell the People', by Georgina Bruni, it was alleged these
 >statements were false and she had been told by Col. Halt that he
 >had not written the notes

Your way with words is deceiving! But what's new!
Two of the witnesses said they did not type the statements.

 >I know this much... I can prove the notes _were_ in fact written
 >by Halt.

We all know that Halt wrote the notes and although I offered
enough evidence for that, which if you read the book properly
you will see it is clear, Halt said he did not write them. So
what's your point? Are you familiar with publishing? If the man
said he did not write them, then one cannot quote him as saying
he did!

Georgina Bruni









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                 Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 17:51:09 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 04:54:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Bourdais


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: 14 Aug 2001 07:21:45 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'


 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:18:16 -0700

 >>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 09:48:29 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com


Hello, Errol Bruce Knapp, and all members
of the list

I am answering to Brad Sparks on this post because I have lost
my archives after a computer nightmare due to the passage from
Aol 5 to Aol 6. Fortunately, I saved a copy of his message. I
write again here, summarized, what I wanted to say, in answer to
Brad Sparks.

Thank you for your long and interesting message. It forces me to
have another look at the new book of Karl Pflock, and I am
certainly going to read it.

However I maintain that Bob Durant has written an outstanding
article, one of the sharpest to date on Roswell.  You claim that
he is unfair to Pflock. Well, I will see when I read the book.

You say that Pflock's book changed your mind on Roswell. But for
Mac Tonnies it had the opposite effect. So it seems the book is,
indeed, on the skeptical side, unless you are able to perceive
the positive elements in it.

I am quite interested by your information on Dr LaPaz. I knew
about the testimony of Rickett saying that he had assisted LaPaz
in 1947, searching for debris and ground traces after the crash.
But, argued the skeptics, he was probably confused about the
date, which was 1949 according to the archives. So, if you are
right, Rickett may well have assisted LaPaz in 1947, after all!
That's one important witness saved.

You say that Durant does a caricature of Pflock's thesis, when
he writes that Mogul was "so exotic in construction that Marcel
and Blanchard concluded its debris was extraterrestrial". Again,
I will see in the book. On the other hand, it seems right to say
that the press release strongly suggested a non-terrestrial
origin. If Blanchard had really suspected it was Russian (as his
wife said he told her), there would have been no press release,
or it would have been quite different!  In his article, Bob
Durant merely contracted that in a few words.

Now about the testimony of Sheridan Cavitt. In my lost post, I
made extensive quotes of Cavitt, and I am not going to do it
again. In a nutshell, Cavitt repeated all the time, in the 30
pages interview of Colonel Weaver, that he had found a simple,
uninteresting weather balloon, or a "radio sonde". The debris
was small, "maybe as long as this room wide". He did not see any
tape decorated with flowers, etc. If he had recovered a huge
balloon train, twenty balloons or more, attached to a strong
nylon line, with radar reflectors and various intruments, he
should have at least vaguely remembered that, but he didn't.

So, as Bob Durant puts it very well, it is no big surprise that
this is not quoted in the book. It is so damaging to the Mogul
theory!  It is a serious flaw of the book. On the contrary, it
does not harm the ufo theory because, as you admit yourself,
Cavitt is lying all the time. He had no need to do that if he
had found a Mogul balloon train, but he needed to if he had
found a ufo.

I am also interested by you remarks on the risks of
disinformation. What you describe is what the Cometa report
labelled "amplifying disinformation". You suppose that secret
services may have put a lot of false rumors and testimonies in
circulation, but to protect what? In the case of Roswell, the
real story of the UFO crash!

Regards to all

Gildas Bourdais









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                  Re: CCCRN News: 1000' Six-Armed Julia Set

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 00:34:38 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 04:59:24 -0400
Subject: Re: CCCRN News: 1000' Six-Armed Julia Set


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

August 14, 2001

_____________________________


1000' SIX-ARMED JULIA SET IN WILTSHIRE, ENGLAND


!!!

http://www.cropcircleconnector.com/2001/MilkHill2/milkhill2001a.html

Found August 13, 2001


See also the two incredible formations at Gog Magog in
Cambridgeshire, two more highlights of the year in England:

http://www.cropcircleconnector.com/2001/GogMagogHills/GogMagogHills2001a.html

http://www.cropcircleconnector.com/2001/GogMagogHills2/GogMagogHills2001b.html

The larger (first) one is exactly 666' across. Make of this what
you will...


____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
information on other CCCRN-related projects and events.












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             Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 18:55:54 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 14:22:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - McCoy


 >Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 07:48:35 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: 13 Aug 2001 14:06:22 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Day 16

 >>Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Day 16

 >Hello All,

 >Due to a death in my family I have been away from the List for
 >several weeks. Like Michael Corleone, no matter how hard I try
 >to stay away, "they drag me back in!"  ;) I am writing because
 >this is one I cannot allow to pass without comment.

 >Lara seems like a sincere person of strong conviction. Abductees
 >are sending her letters of support and she is being "encouraged"
 >in her hunger strike by folks from all points on the compass. As
 >strongly as I believe in UFO disclosure I cannot (in good
 >conscience) support anything that will put someone's health or
 >Life in danger.

I Agree John, I wrote a long rant then erased it because I saw
that this is not  Lara's doing, entirely.

What really upset me was the biblical quote of John 15:3, when
the subject that Jesus Christ was talking about was giving your
life so others may live. Lay on the hand grenade, take the
bullet, get nailed to a Cross that sort of thing.

When this is not a life or death matter, why damage yourself
just to prove a point. It won't do any good anyway.

 >Although this grandstand hunger strike may help to attract some
 >attention to the subject, at what price? Do any of the people
 >who are egging her on with letters of support care about this
 >person's well being? Has anyone tried to counsel her about the
 >foolishness of risking her health for something that can be
 >accomplished without risk to human life? Has everybody gone
 >completely bonkers while I was away?

 >Again, I am in complete agreement with her "cause." It is her
 >"methods" I am questioning. Reality Check: George Bush Jr. is
 >busy playing golf. He is -not,- repeat, NOT) going to respond
 >directly to this sacrificial (albeit noble) effort from Lara.

Not only Bush but every other politican that has never heard of
any UFO activist. Every President from Truman on down has gotten
tons of mail of all types. Is Bush any different, form letters
and all?

 >What will most likely happen if Lara persists is that her body
 >and health will begin to deteriorate (dangerously) at some
 >point, and unless she is in tip-top physical condition, she will
 >suffer/pay the consequences.

She seems to be in the habit of that, if her previous hunger
strike is any indication.

 >Instead of "encouraging" her we should all be pleading with her
 >to put an end to this folly before harmful or irreversible
 >effects from her hunger strike are visited upon her person.

Having known a survivor of the Battaan Death March, starvation's
effects stayed with him until the day he died, (at a realtively
young age  of 59)

 >Lara: Please, reconsider this (personally) dangerous course of
 >action you have taken. I am ready and willing to support you in
 >any way in order to get the presidents attention. But as I have
 >already stated, I cannot in good conscience support anything
 >that is going to endanger your life or your continued well
 >being.

Listen to John, Lara.

 >As for the rest of her alleged "supporters": If anything bad
 >happens to Lara because of your encouragement, may it burn a
 >hole in your thoughtless (for Lara) heads for the rest of your
 >natural lives.

Yes, I Agree with this too.

Tell me does Dr. Greer support this? has he heard about it? how
about it Mr. Cameron?


GT McCoy

All for sanity too.









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                           New UFO-Flap In Turkey?

From: Joachim Koch <AchimKoch@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 16:26:36 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 14:31:31 -0400
Subject: New UFO-Flap In Turkey?


Hi List,

I've just heard it on the radio and it was on page one of the
Turkish newspaper "Hurriyet" on Aug. 8th:

Two Turkish Air Force bomber pilots, Ilker Dincer and Arda
Gunyer, in their T-37 reported to the tower that they suddenly
saw a glowing disk-like UFO over the province of Izmir. It was
traveling with fast speed and they followed it. They were able
to lock on and had kind of a dog fight for some moments, then
the UFO buzzed out of sight.

"Hurriyet" spent page number one for this report and printed
much of the conversation between the two pilots and the tower:
"the object comes close to the wings... it is behind us... now
it is in front of us...it is like a dogfight..."

At the same time nothing was to be seen on the radar screens.
Some international news agencies such as AFP have picked up the
news.

Since June this year there were some reports of unusual air
traffic and it is said that in one case it was videotaped.

12 years ago Belgium - now Turkey...?

Another reminder...?


Best wishes

Joachim Koch, Berlin













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             Ramey's Debris [was: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell']

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 21:52:59 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 14:35:45 -0400
Subject: Ramey's Debris [was: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell']


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 15:43:36 -0700


 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com
 >>Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:48:48 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Ed, if you believe that the things photographed on Ramey's
 >>office floor don't resemble the Mogul radar reflectors, but
 >>instead look to you like an alien spaceship, please say so.

 >Bob,

 >You have consistently declined our offer to view the Ft. Worth
 >debris evidence contained in the AA CD package, and you refuse
 >to acknowledge the information the RPIT has contributed to the
 >Roswell discussion. If you'd been paying attention, you wouldn't
 >have to ask silly questions since I've made my position on all
 >this completely clear.

 >But since you ask, and there's always time for redemption, I'll
 >answer best I can. I am well aware of Col. Weaver's report and
 >the makeup of the Mogul balloon train and reflectors and have in
 >fact published a detailed description of the Mogul along with
 >photos in the last issue of Flatland.

 >There is nothing on the floor in Gen. Ramey's office that
 >resembles a mogul balloon train. If there is, point it out to
 >me.

 >The debris does not look like an "alien spaceship" because there
 >are only fragments of material.

 >But those fragments contain numerous physical clues to their
 >genesis and do resemble witness descriptions of the Roswell
 >craft debris and the debris shown in the AA debris footage.

 >So to answer your question directly:

 >The debris on the office floor does not resemble a Mogul in any
 >way.

Ed,

Yes it does. See below.

 >What this debris actually is, if not a Mogul or weather
 >balloon, is what the RPIT would like to discuss. Why not order
 >the AA CDs and see the evidence for yourself? You don't really
 >want to seem so ignorant, do you?

So far as I can see, the material in the Ramey office photos
looks very much like a torn Mogul radar reflector, a kite-like
mess consisting almost entirely of foil backed with paper, with
blank white tape-like strips bordering them especially where
balsa-like sticks appear to be joined. But this does _NOT_ match
what the witnesses back in and around Roswell said they saw,
though their accounts _do_ resemble the Mogul radar reflectors,
except for the absence of the flower-like designs on the tape.
This exception or discrepancy lies in the fact the tape is only
about 1 inch wide in the photos whereas the Mogul reflectors
were reportedly affixed with 2-inch wide tape (Pflock p. 161)
and Bessie Brazel described a tape at the debris site that was
about 2-3 inches wide with flower designs on it (p. 277).

It would have been impossible for the flower-like symbols to
have disappeared in just a few hours' time from the Roswell
witnesses seeing them on the material to being flown to Ft.
Worth. The notion I've heard suggested that the camera flash was
so bright it blanked out the flower designs on the film is
ridiculous -- if the flowers were visible in bright sunlight
without being blanked out then a flashbulb wouldn't blank them
out either. Bessie Brazel remembered that they were "faint"
symbols but no one, neither she or anyone else said they were so
faint they could barely be seen to the naked eye. Marcel Jr
described the pink or purplish-pink characters as "embossed"
which should show up easily on the Ramey photos (pp. 26, 268).
This is a matter that can be tested experimentally by getting an
identical or comparable model camera and film, and simulated
tape, etc.

So far as I've been able to determine not a single eyewitness
reported finding any of the foil _paper_ double-sided material
that was used in Mogul radar reflectors. They all say
"foiled-cloth" or "foil-fabric" or "foil-rubber" or one or two
who missed the backing or didn't think to mention it call it
"tinfoil" or "foil-like," and one of the earliest descriptions
on record was "foil or other shining material" but nothing about
any paper-foil. ("Foil or other shining material" was the actual
July 8, 1947, description by 8th AF intelligence officer Major
Edwin Kirton in Reuters interview, so cannot possibly be
contaminated memory from 30-50 years later.)

The widespread use of foil-paper material in the U.S. in 1947
for gum wrappers and cigarette wrappers, etc., was so pervasive
that it seems there cannot possibly be any conceivable error by
the witnesses in failing to tell the difference between an
obvious paper backing to the Roswell foil debris (claimed by
Moguloids) and the strange "cloth" or "fabric" side of a
two-sided material actually described by witnesses -- compared
by one witness to "the thickness of very fine kidskin glove
leather and a dull metallic grayish silver, one side slightly
darker than the other." (Pflock pp. 153, 285) The soft thin
leather comparison nicely fits in between descriptions of cloth
and rubber. If it had been foil-paper the witnesses would have
noticed it instantly.

The only way out on this for Moguloids is to claim the witnesses
are all wrong, every last one of them, in telling of foil-cloth
instead of Mogul foil-paper -- including AP reporter Jason
Kellahin. Or to come up with Mogul radar reflectors made out of
a foil-cloth material, which seems absurd as that could double
or triple the weight of the radar reflectors over that of
foil-paper material, and to date no C. B. Moore has come forward
to say they used such material in 1947.

Also the material in the Ramey photos is completely clean, not a
speck of dirt visible on it, despite alleged days or weeks out
in the windswept desert, despite the recorded fact of an unusual
violent thunderstorm in the area of the debris field on July 2-3
that should have made a _muddy mess_ of all of the _paper_ in
the alleged Mogul array from Flight 4 that fell on June 4, 1947.
(Pflock p. 23)

No raindrop spatter marks on the paper are visible in the Ramey
office photos either. When paper gets wet it swells and warps,
and the distortion never goes away after it dries, it's
permanently disfigured. Every drop would be recorded forever on
the paper as ugly cratered or roundish pockmarks of the paper as
well as dust turned to mud and partially washed away in round
blobs around the impacts of raindrops, themselves carrying swept
up dirt from the air to form their own patterns of obvious flow
and eventual drying. The Ramey office photos are so fine in
resolution that every ripple in the surface of paper can be seen
yet no raindrop pockmarks are visible from the thunderstorm of
July 2-3. How come?

To sum up: The Roswell witnesses describe Mogul-like debris
except for foil-cloth, a 2-foot section of a thin slightly
curved sheet metal, and a discrepancy in the width of the tape
used. The Ramey photos show a clean set of tattered Mogul-like
remains lacking any dirty raindrop pockmarks or any dirt at all,
as if the material was substituted perhaps to make a 'good show'
for the news media, except that no flower designs are visible on
the tape. The Roswell witness evidence suggests a Mogul balloon
array in the field was mixed with some other debris, either by
human agency, deliberately or unintentionally, or as a result of
the anomaly/explosion event.


Brad








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                 Re: Ramey's Debris [was: Review of Pflock's

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:13:39 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 15:40:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris [was: Review of Pflock's


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:21:04 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Date: 14 Aug 2001 07:21:45 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'

 >>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:18:16 -0700

 ><snip>

 >>Hmmm... new theory.

 >>Someone disposed of old Rawin targets on the Foster Ranch and
 >>paid him a fee for it. No balloons needed. How is that for
 >>imaginative skepticism?

 >Bill,

 >Now you're cookin'.

 >Of course, applying Ocham's Razor suggests that everything being
 >equal, one of the balloon trains that are known to have been
 >launched, such as the one launched on June 4, with more than one
 >target attached, just happened to come down there.

A major problem here is that according to many newspapers on
July 8 and July 9, the wreckage was found by Brazel "last week".

According to C.B. Moore, neoprene balloons would turn to dust
within a short time in the NM sun.

The rancher had been in the area not long before his discovery.
If he had found all that junk many weeks before, he would never
have left it out for his sheep to eat and become sick from.

As noted in the last portion of the RDR [Roswell Daily Record]
article for July 9 (which is the basis for all the Mogul balloon
nonsense), Brazel was sure it wasn't a weather balloon.

He had found them before.

This sentence is, of course, left out of a long quote from the
article by disinformation specialist Colonel Weaver. He also
left out a key clause from the FBI memo which he quoted from.

The omission changes the sense by 180 degrees.

Remember his specialty was disinformation. He was good at it.
The Mogul balloon explanation doesn't fit. We must acquit; as
some lawyer said in another context.

This is detailed in my 27 page paper 'Roswell Incident, USAF,
and the NY Times'.

I think this is one place where Kevin and I agree.


Stan Friedman









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                        Stan Friedman's New Web Site

From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 21:33:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 15:42:58 -0400
Subject: Stan Friedman's New Web Site


Greetings EBK Fellow UpDates members:

I'm very pleased to invite you to see Stan Friedman's newly
designed home web site:

http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfhome.html

Peter Blinn volunteered to do the redesign which we are very
proud to display as part of the VJ Enterprises home site. Peter
work is excellent. If you agree let him know.


Dave Vetterick








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                  'Extraterrestrial Visitations' - A Review

From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson@alienjigsaw.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:31:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 15:51:07 -0400
Subject: 'Extraterrestrial Visitations' - A Review


'Extraterrestrial Visitations: True Accounts of Contact'
  by
  Preston Dennett
  � 2001

Reviewed by Katharina Wilson

'Extraterrestrial Visitations: True Accounts of Contact' is
Preston Dennett's fourth book about the UFO phenomenon. It is
based on ten case histories and includes personal testimonies
from the following: a medical doctor, a therapist, an airplane
mechanic, a housewife, a military person, an office worker, a
factory employee, an actor, a waitress, and a store manager. In
other words, people we see in our everyday lives.

Preston carefully chose these ten cases because they all have
something important to contribute to our understanding of the
phenomenon. They all have similarities to other cases, but they
also have important differences and contain new information.
Preston interjects his thoughtful insights about the phenomenon
in each chapter, but it is done so in a gentle, logical manner
allowing the witnesses to describe their own experiences and
draw their own conclusions. There is no doubt Preston does draw
conclusions, but it is from years of investigating and
interviewing witnesses, and the reader will quickly see that he
is very familiar with the subject.

When hypnosis is used by a competent hypnotist or physician it
can be a useful tool. However, conscious memories are very
important and accurate and this book shows this very well.
"Extraterrestrial Visitations" contains first person accounts
from the witnesses and it does _not_ rely heavily on the use of
hypnosis. These cases cover sightings to close encounters to the
reason UFOs are here in the first place:

Interaction with human beings.

Even after all of the books I have read and, to use an old
clich', "having been there and experienced that," I still found
this book to be an informative read and I came across
extraterrestrial-related experiences that I had not previously
read about or had experienced myself.

Some highlights of the book include a sighting described in
great detail and witnessed by hundreds of people. There are
different ways and reasons a person may remember their
experience and this may involve "triggers" for incredible
spontaneous memories, and a six-hour abduction is described as
well as a multiple witness sighting of a cigar-shaped craft.

Also discussed is a case involving physical contact with a beam
from a craft that changes the life of the witness forever. There
is also a case where the witness was rescued by
extraterrestrials. Without knowing it until I reached the end of
the book, one of the cases is that of Melinda Leslie, a
well-documented and well-known abductee. I don't want to give
too much away because there are many details to each case and
each case deserves to be read.

There is a lot to like about this book. It has an attractive
cover, it was easy to order and it has a great price. It also
has an index, which we unfortunately do not always see in UFO
books. Another nice feature about this book is Preston's
"Suggested Reading List." Besides listing books by the top
researchers, Preston includes almost all of the books written by
abductees thereby standing by his belief that, "[He has] always
felt that the persons most qualified to speak on the subject of
extraterrestrial contact are the people who have had the
experiences."

It is so refreshing to see credit being given to the abductees
who have risked it all by going public and writing and/or
publishing their own books. With the exception of "UFOs and
Abductions" (edited by David M. Jacobs) I have not seen such a
thorough list of books written by (and sometimes published by)
the experiencers of this phenomenon.

It is of great interest, as well as being extremely important
for the public to hear directly from the experiencers of this
phenomenon. A "special thanks" goes to Preston for making that
happen. I know I speak for a lot of abductees who went public in
the 1980s and 1990s - some of whom are no longer with us  - when
I say to the people who participated in this book: "Thank you
all for going public, for telling the truth and for keeping the
flame burning. We need you."

# # #

Preston Dennett is a field investigator for the Mutual UFO
Network and is also the author of 'UFO Healings', 'One in Forty:
The UFO Epidemic' and 'UFOs Over Topanga Canyon' as well as
over 70 articles.

'Extraterrestrial Visitations: True Accounts of Contact'
can be ordered from:

New Worlds
c/o Llewellyn Worldwide,
Post Office Box 64383,
Department 1-56718-220-8,
St. Paul, MN 55164-0383

or by calling

1-800-THE MOON

The trade paper edition costs $12.95 plus shipping and handling.

http://www.llewellyn.com


Katharina Wilson is the author of 'The Alien Jigsaw',
'The Alien Jigsaw Researcher's Supplement' and
a monograph, 'Project Open Mind'.

http://www.alienjigsaw.com


Thanks Everyone -- K. Wilson












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   Aug > Aug 15

                 Cavitt's Roswell Testimony [was: Review of

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 00:39:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 15:55:07 -0400
Subject: Cavitt's Roswell Testimony [was: Review of


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: 14 Aug 2001 06:57:51 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'


 >>Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:06:45 -0400
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>


 >>>>by Karl Pflock

 >>>>reviewed by Mac Tonnies

 >>>May I add a personal comment, along the same line as Durant.
 >>>There is another key witnesses: the man who spent the all day on
 >>>the debris field with Marcel: Captain Sheridan Cavitt. When
 >>>interviewed by Colonel Weaver for the Air Force in 1994, (the 30
 >>>pages interview is in the AF Roswell Report), Cavitt stuck to
 >>>the first "explanation", the one of an ordinary weather balloon.

 >>>If the purpose had been, in 1947, to protect the top-secret
 >>>Mogul balloons, in 1994 Cavitt did not have to do that any more!
 >>>If that's what he had found, he should have said to Weaver: "Oh
 >>>yes, I remember now, the cluster of balloons, radar targets
 >>>reinforced with flower decorated tape, instruments etc." But
 >>>no, he did not find that, only a miserable weather balloon.>

 >>>If only Cavitt had been willing to vouch for the Mogul story,
 >>>that would have probably put an end to the Roswell case. Instead
 >>>of that, when Weaver asked him his opinion of Karl Pflock, he
 >>>replied: "He's our chief debunker. I lean toward him".

 >>For an analysis of the Cavitt testimony see Did Sheridan Cavitt
 >>Visit the Same Crash Site or CAVITT EMPTOR at:

 >>http://brumac.8k.com

 >Ok, Bruce, I read it all. Very interesting, but your footnote
 >concludes that Cavitt lied in his testimony to Weaver. Do you
 >still stand behind that conclusion? And, have you seen anything
 >that further substantiates this conclusion?

Either Cavitt was mixing up the Roswell retrieval with something
else or he outright lied.

I believe he lied.

I have seen no evidence to convince me otherwise.

Hence I say that Cavitt is one of the strongest witnesses _for_
the Roswell event being anomalous.

Amusing.  :-)








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                            Turkish Pilots & UFO

From: Hakan Konac" <konac@ada.net.tr>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 09:31:23 GMT
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 16:00:40 -0400
Subject: Turkish Pilots & UFO


Enjoy the below info.

Hakan

---

Name of Turkish Air Force Pilot: Second Lieutenant Ilker Dincer
Name of Second Turkish Air Force Pilot: n.a.
Type of the aircraft: T-37 Training Jet (122nd Squadron)
Date: 6 August 2001
Time: 12:30 hours Turkish time
Place: Izmir, Candarli, Turkey
Duration of Encounter: 30 minutes

Dincer: "We are facing an unusual situation. We see an object
         shaped like a cross between a cone and a disc, with
         support legs, extremely luminous and high speed".

Dincer reports the incident both to the Ground Control and to the
Combat Operations Center (COC) and asks for radar confirmation.

COC:    "Negative. We detect a high rate of maneuvering in your
         aircraft but no detection of a second object around."

Dincer moves the T-37 closer towards the object and according to
Dincer, the object also moves closer towards the T-37.

Dincer: "The object is now coming closer to my wings, now it�s
         behind us, I�ll get it in front of myself, now it�s in
         front of us, hey this is certainly going for a dog fight
         with us".

The object gyrated around the T-37 for about a half hour. The
object and the T-37 maneuvered around each other during the
encounter until the object disappeared at an incredibly high
speed.

The incident is under investigation by the Turkish Air Force and
there is a great deal of concern and shock among the Air Force
officials.

The incident will be reported to the relevant international
institutions, especially NASA.

---------------------------------------------








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                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 10:58:08 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 16:06:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:07:59 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Date: 14 Aug 2001 06:42:06 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'

 >>I believe, specifically, that the debris on the floor in Ramey's
 >>office is mostly that of a Rawin radar target (possibly the
 >>ML-307B) used not just by Project Mogul, but hung from weather
 >>balloons.

 >>It appears to be aluminum foil laminated to paper and supported
 >>by balsa wood struts. As retired General Thomas DuBose said in
 >>interviews it was a cover story.

 >Bill:

 >I agree.

 >Marcel also claimed this, although he did say that one picture
 >was the actual debris and the other (s?) part of the cover. I
 >think this later claim of his was refuted by an examination of
 >the entire pixs frames in the roll of film, as pointed out by
 >Mark Rodeghier years ago in an article in IUR.

Bob,

This quote comes from an early interview with Bill Moore and is
referred to in "The Roswell Incident", I don't have the book to
hand but in essence Marcel states that in _the_one_ photograph
in which he appears some of the original debris he brought from
Roswell is shown.

We know now that Bond Johnson actually took 2 consecutive shots
of Marcel on 1 double sided 5x4 sheet film holder _not_ a roll,
(standard practice at the time to take 2 shots in case one was a
dud). No other photograph of Marcel has ever turned up in the
record other than those 2 taken by JBJ of that one pose and
researchers like David Rudiak have studied hundreds of news
titles from that period, can we then say that the photo pose
Marcel was making reference to in that Moore interview was
likely that taken by JBJ?. I believe the one Marcel had seen
_was_ one of JBJ's  published news photographs. If that is the
case then we also have to accept that the debris seen in the
rest of his photographs, all of which were taken at the same
photoshoot, also show, as I think Marcel is quoted as saying,
some of the "less interesting" debris  they brought from
Roswell.

The debris seen in _all_ JBJ's photo's is essentially the same,
though it can be seen to have been moved around a little from
picture to picture, it can also be seen that some of the same
debris is used in the Irving Newton picture that appeared on the
news wires later in the evening of the 8th July 1947 but was not
taken by Bond Johnson. In that picture much of the obviously
_non_ reflector/balloon debris has been removed.

 >I think that Ed reveals his lack of reliability as a photo
 >interpreter by not noticing the resemblance. His fascination
 >with the phony Alien Autopsy film doesn't add much confidence,
 >either.

Ed didn't find the connection, I did. It _is_ curious, but the
fact is 4 symbol shapes identified in sequence on the same
single beam section from the AA "debris footage" happen to match
closely, symbol shapes seen in the Fort

Worth Photographs, the number of matches I find more than just
coincidence.

 >>There is no way the target was strewn out over 3/4 mile on the
 >>Foster Ranch.

 >Well, it would depend upon how thinly spread out it was, or if
 >it was in pieces.

Jesse Marcel's site description works out at aprox 777,500 sqft
That dubious interview with Mack Brazel in the RDR of the 9th
July quotes Mack as saying the site was 200 yards across that's
aprox 282,700 sqft. _If_ Charles Moore's MOGUL _did_ have 3
ML307 reflectors and _if_ it did crash on the Foster Ranch it
would only have

_54_ sq ft of foil. (90 sq ft if it had 5 ML307's attached)

To cover the above two site descriptions with 34 sqft of foil
that's

0.0275 sq INCHES per sq ft for Mack's size

and

0.01 sq INCHES per sq ft for Jesse Marcel's size of debris field

And that is a _mighty_ thin spread _just_ to provide a uniform
background cover.

To provide a _noticable_ say 10% coverage of the above 2 areas
you would need aprox one tenth of each of the area's ie over
70,000 and 28,000 square _feet_  of foil in each case.

And _all_ that from the _one_ Flight 4 MOGUL launch which only
had at the very most 90sqft of foil and possibly _didn't_ have
any foil ML307's at all???.

But even if it did have ML307's the numbers don't really add up
do they?


Neil








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                  Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 06:22:55 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 16:12:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sparks


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: 14 Aug 2001 07:21:45 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'

 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:18:16 -0700

 >>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 09:48:29 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >><snip>

 >>>Despite Pflock quoting literally pages of witness testimony to
 >>>unusual material properties in the Roswell debris throughout his
 >>>book and repeatedly reciting it to the point of redundancy (AP
 >>>reporter Kellahin's description of the material is quoted twice
 >>>on the same page, p. 153), and presenting an extremely valuable
 >>>collection of 50 pages of witness interview transcripts and
 >>>affidavits,

 >>I just purchased Pflock's "Roswell' yesterday and expected a
 >>$26, typical debunking hack-job but was surprised to find an
 >>interesting, fact-filled, hack-job instead.

 >I think you hit the nail on the head here, Ed.

 >>And while you're correct that Karl has made an important
 >>contribution to Roswell research, his conclusions are dead wrong
 >>and dumb. (find an identifiable piece of the mogul on the floor
 >>of Gen. Ramey's office) This it is not the fault of the
 >>information that Pflock has gathered together, but his own spin
 >>on the details.

 >Agreed. Marcel's large field-size estimate is a vital factor as
 >well as descriptions of the material found by those who handled
 >it and that does not logically lead to Pflock's conclusion.

 >The field-size was estimated to be about 4,000 ft long (3/4
 >mile) by about 250 feet wide. That is about 1,000,000 square
 >feet.

 >Assuming that to be a maximum and assuming the debris field to
 >be uneven in shape, we can still estimate that the ground was
 >covered by about 6,000 square feet of material.

 >Assuming half this size and about 3,000 square feet of thin
 >metallic material (no identifiable remnants of neoprene balloons
 >seemed to have been mentioned), then how do we reconcile this
 >with Rawin targets which had a total of 54 square feet of
 >surface area. Lets see now - that would be around 55 Rawin
 >targets.

 >Hmmm... new theory.

 >Someone disposed of old Rawin targets on the Foster Ranch and
 >paid him a fee for it. No balloons needed. How is that for
 >imaginative skepticism?


Bill,

You know better than this. No witness to the debris field ever
specified - or could ever be reliable enough to specify - the
density of debris fragments constituting this field, especially
from memory 30-50 years later. I notice you don't mention
Brazel's contemporaneous July 8, 1947, estimate of the size of
the debris field of _rubber_ as about "two hundred yards" (600
feet) - almost exactly the size of a 657-foot Mogul balloon
train of 23 rubber balloons. (Roswell Daily Record, July 9,
1947) Nor do you mention Bessie Brazel's 300-foot estimate
("about the size of a football field"). She said the debris was
"scattered sparsely" and that the wind might have blown it
farther than that. (Pflock p. 277) Can you translate "sparsely"
into a material density such as square inches of material per
square yard of ground? I can't.

The main reason this is ridiculous is because of the human
tendency to simplify complex situations. If one or two foil
pieces were found 1,000 feet away or 4,000 feet away does that
make the _entire_ debris field 1,000 or 4,000 feet in size? How
many pieces does it take to make a "debris field" Bill? What if
the wind blew a few pieces 1,000 feet or more right while you're
standing there trying to make sense of the more immediate
collection of dozens or hundreds of pieces closer at hand. Does
that mean the debris field is considered 1,000+ feet in size or
what???? Didn't Brazel collect some of the debris and stash it
till he came back with Marcel, and if so, how does that removal
affect the area of the debris field after he returned? Can you
tell me whether your answer today in 2001 would even apply or be
understood by _any_ of the witnesses back in 1947 on site trying
to make sense of it???

Every person might have a different notion of what constitutes a
"debris field" and some might not even think of articulating or
formulating such a concept in the first place - why should
they? Are ranchers supposed to be aircraft accident
investigators??? Was Marcel even an accident investigator?
You're pushing far beyond the resaonable limits of witness
perception and comprehension here. Some witnesses might think
the only thing relevant is what was at their feet, maybe a few
dozen yards across. Some might think it's the densest collection
that they can see, ignoring all the rest that are scattered as
being deemed insignificant. Some might ignore the sun-browned
rubber fragments from the 23 balloons in the Mogul Flight 4
array because they'd blend in more with the brown background and
be harder to spot than the eye-catching, sun-glinting shiny foil
pieces. Some might have tried to be more careful and consider
all of the unusual material they saw. Some might have
misunderstood the questions put to them or the questions might
have been narrower or broader than they realized. Some might not
be very good at estimating distances. Some might simply not have
walked as far around as others.

These simple logical considerations help provide an entirely
different explanation for Marcel's large size estimate made 30+
years after the fact, and then there is the additional (or
related) factor of a reported _second site_ and how far away
that might have been, and whether there was or was not any
debris in between and whether or not such debris might have
simply been coincidentally blown around by the wind filling in
the gap between sites, and whether or not there was any
confusion (deliberate or unintentional) in deciding whether it
was two sites or just one very large site. Did you ever think of
that latter possibility? (Or any of these I've just mentioned?)
Bessie Brazel states in her affidavit (p. 277), "There may have
been additional material spread out more widely by the wind,
which was blowing quite strongly."

Geez man you guys in general have had 23 years to think about
such obvious logical issues and _no_ one has ever to my
knowledge brought this up before, the one-site/two-site boundary
dilemma. And I notice neither you or Ed dares to engage in
discussion of my full posting of 784 lines' length but are just
content to blot out all but 16 lines or so, that's about 98%
deleted or should I say suppressed. This is worse than what the
Moguloids (or pelicanists) do in conveniently sidestepping
unanswerable facts and argument. See my Aug 11 post at:

http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/2001/aug/m11-007.shtml

Speaking of my post, I made a mistake that Karl Pflock kindly
pointed out to me privately which is that he _did_ cite the
testimony of a Thermos-like object being found (pp. 36, 121) but
he failed to mention this pro-Mogul point where it belongs, in
his comparison of witness descriptions of the debris against a
Mogul array (pp. 159-165). Once again Karl fails to be the
consummate pro-Mogul debunker he is portrayed to be. The
resemblance of this "Thermos-like" metal cylinder to the Mogul
sonobuoy cylinder is uncanny.

However, let me balance this pro-Mogul mistake with another, an
anti-Mogul point when corrected: I thought from Karl's
presentation that CIC/OSI agent Lewis Rickett was the only
witness to the 2-foot piece of thin metal. But another witness
to what he described as a rigid metal sheet 18 x 24 inches was
Robert Shirkey, then the Asst Flight Safety Officer at Roswell.
(Pflock p. 29)

Karl also corrected me that LaPaz's July 10, 1947, sighting has
a location given as Ft. Sumner, NM, in Bloecher (which I don't
have available so I don't know how Bloecher got it, but perhaps
it was many years later, or in AF files, when LaPaz felt freer).
This still doesn't explain why LaPaz couldn't simply have told
LIFE magazine in 1952 it happened near Ft. Sumner, it would have
been a lot simpler than awkwardly saying he was driving from
Clovis to Cline Corners, separated by more than 150 miles, and
not give the relevant fact of his actual location. It still puts
LaPaz on the road right past the turnoff to Corona, just two
days after the Roswell case broke the news and after reporters
tracked LaPaz down in Oklahoma (or he contacted them; either
way, he surely found out about the Roswell case). It still
doesn't eliminate the possibility he took a detour through
Roswell, though it seems less likely now.

As for what LaPaz might have learned had he investigated Roswell
for purposes of orbit calculation and possible impact tracing,
had he investigated the Wilmots' sighting, as I mentioned before
he might have found the radiant or origin near the ecliptic
plane of the earth's orbit (and most planets) around the sun,
near the constellation Capricorn around 21h RA, -30� Dec. This
might be consistent with an asteroidal meteor as well as a
possible interplanetary spacecraft orbit (though today we might
doubt that because we look to interstellar trajectories).

But I also discovered something else interesting about the
Wilmots' sighting in reading Pflock's book (pp. 22-23), which
LaPaz might have discovered back in 1947: The Wilmots reported
the speed of the luminous double-saucer as 400-500 mph and
altitude about 1,500 feet as it passed over Roswell headed
northwest toward Corona. The individual values of such speed and
altitude figures may not be accurate because the distance isn't
known without known reference points, but the _ratio_ of these
numbers is an observable quantity and might be valid and
accurate. The ratio is the angular velocity and it comes out
about 25� per second, which is extremely fast, meteoric in fact.
If it was a meteor about, say, 40 miles overhead then its
velocity would be about 17 miles per second, which is nominal
for a meteor. If it was a reentering or entering spacecraft at 7
mi/sec then it would be at a height of about 16 miles or 85,000
feet which seems reasonable. Thus the numbers given by the
Wilmots when scaled up are reasonable - for either a meteor or
a spaceship - which is interesting.


Brad








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Aug > Aug 15

                        UFOs And Classified Aircraft

From: Leonard David <NewsSpace@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 08:18:10 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 16:17:03 -0400
Subject: UFOs And Classified Aircraft


[Non-Subscriber Post]

Thought you would find this new story of mine of interest

http://space.com/businesstechnology/technology/classified_aircraft_010815-1.html


Leonard

SPACE.com








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Aug > Aug 15

                Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 07:30:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 16:24:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure
 >Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 20:55:59 +0000

 >>Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 07:48:35 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>>Date: 13 Aug 2001 14:06:22 -0700
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Day 16

 >>>Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Day 16

 >>Hello All,

 >>Due to a death in my family I have been away from the List for
 >>several weeks. Like Michael Corleone, no matter how hard I try
 >>to stay away, "they drag me back in!" ;) I am writing because
 >>this is one I cannot allow to pass without comment.

<snip>

 >>What will most likely happen if Lara persists is that her body
 >>and health will begin to deteriorate (dangerously) at some
 >>point, and unless she is in tip-top physical condition, she will
 >>suffer/pay the consequences.

 >>Instead of "encouraging" her we should all be pleading with her
 >>to put an end to this folly before harmful or irreversible
 >>effects from her hunger strike are visited upon her person.

 >>Lara: Please, reconsider this (personally) dangerous course of
 >>action you have taken. I am ready and willing to support you in
 >>any way in order to get the presidents attention. But as I have
 >>already stated, I cannot in good conscience support anything
 >>that is going to endanger your life or your continued well
 >>being.

 >>As for the rest of her alleged "supporters": If anything bad
 >>happens to Lara because of your encouragement, may it burn a
 >>hole in your thoughtless (for Lara) heads for the rest of your
 >>natural lives.

 >John,

 >Condolences on your loss. I, for one, am very glad to have the
 >return of your "voice of sanity".

 >Non-bonkers in Brentwood,

 >Dick


In the first place, Mr. Hall, to the ubiquitous mainstream
you're a capering mad-man, an aging beatnik, and a left leaning
question-asker (pinko-radical) likely just to the good side of
the 'Unabomber'. Your "non-bonkers in Brentwood" is taken,
therefore, with the endless flats at Bonneville... <g>.

Mr. Velez, on the other hand, has been abducted by aliens, and
so he is removed from the equational question, out of hand. I
mean, even a display of _reasonable_ compassion is suspect from
one of _those_ people. I've got it on good authority that John
has licked the dry lake bed at Area 51, so he's got enough salt
for everybody. <g>.

Neither of you would be able to hold down a teaching job, for
sure. <no little grinny things>

As regards our striker. In the first place we are talking about
a grown woman here that has rationally demonstrated some
egalitarian sense and rational seriousness in the past, a
cursory look seems to show. Allusions to "bonkers" might be a
little premature, needlessly distracting, and an otherwise
inaccurate splash of well meaning, but point-missing, paint...

Additionally, pronouncing conclusions that there is life
threatening potentiality is sensationalistic and largely
judgmental. To this point Ms. Johnstone eloquently demonstrates,
only, that her life is made OTHERWISE uncomfortable by a golf
playing president with a resting heart rate of 43, his easy
obfuscation, blithe indifference to promises he has made, and
his GENERAL lack of forthcomingness. The discomfort of her
(hopefully) intelligently undertaken fast is that discomfort
made more poignantly _real_ in this non-violent, time honored,
and traditional way.

An intelligent fast is actually a healthy thing, to a point;
John likely knows that. There is no _mal_ nutrition in a healthy
fast, there is only an 'under' nutrition that most people in the
western hemisphere could have a couple of helpings of anyway...
I've got a whole paper in the spring-loaded, ready to go
position, so we can dicker that point if you want to. The human
body evolved on the savanna where a fast was a continuing aspect
of reality. Feast or famine. Our bodies evolved to make use of
that periodic fast more than to be inconvenienced by it. An
intelligent fast is a healing fast. Regular meals are just an
invention of the last hundred years, anyway. Our savanna
digestion system is actually discommoded by regular meals. It
did not _evolve_ to have food in it all the time... but I
digress.

A quick look indicates that she is executing her fast in an
intelligent manner with the associated hydration, juice
ingestion, electrolytes, and what have you. I would encourage
her to if she was not. But I wouldn't insist or even suggest
that she stop, that's not my damn business. If you could push a
button and make her stop would you do it? Pardners, I sincerely
hope not. I'd be damned if you would be pushing similar buttons
on me! That's part of the problem that our personal autonomy is
being made less and less.

I wish her well. I hope she is not being made too uncomfortable.
I hope that she does not have to suffer any life threatening
attributes of this ultimately extreme enterprise she has
undertaken... Moreover, I'll be the first to plead with her to
stop if it looks like she's really going to hurt herself, but
I'm not going to denigrate her gesture now with admonitions that
it is crazy, ill-founded, or a waste of her time and effort.

A forthcoming collection of cultural institutions _not_
presently in evidence are what motivates her! She seems to feel
that there is a threat to her existence _outside_ the threat in
a loss of a few burgers and baked potatoes. She's concerned that
there is so much graft and corruption in the elected and
non-elected institutions above her that she is under a threat
similar to, if not greater than the loss of several thousand
calories of food!

...And what will be my feelings if Lara should ultimately take
ill and die as a result of her extreme exertions? I'll tell you
exactly! They'll be the exact same feelings I had when I saw
that infamous film of a Buddhist monk dousing himself with
petrol and setting himself afire in protest at the continued war
in Viet Nam... What did YOU feel?

Some things _are_ just bigger than one life. Twenty thousand
plus kids starve to death on this planet every day, where is
similar concern for them? Don't focus on her strike, rather,
focus on what brought her strike on. _She's_ not the problem!
The _problem_ is the problem!

No - if this woman wants to stake her conviction on an act like
this, more power to her. With a dollop more guts I'd join her.
What she's talking about is _that_ important. Hell, I've risked
life and limb for a hell of a lot less than what she's about,
flying helicopters into hot landing zones in support of specious
and unethical wars. This was the war, incidentally,
precipitating self-barbecuing Buddhists at its tragic
denouement!

Besides, I think a portrait of the boned headed and obfuscating
Mr. Bush is too righteously complimented by the needless
suffering of one woman with valid conviction. It's a very
instructive picture. It's a valid picture. It's an accurate
picture. It's a picture that _I_ would paint... but with a
little less courage and conviction that our Ms. Johnstone, I
admit with no small embarrassment.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND - John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is - the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the scurrilous.









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   Aug > Aug 16

                          Filer's Files #33 - 2001

From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 12:05:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 07:52:19 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #33 - 2001


Filer's Files #33 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
August 14, 2001, Majorstar@aol.com
Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com

UFOs reported in Pennsylvania, Virginia, Florida, Ohio,
Illinois, Wisconsin, Canada, Australia, England, Turkey and
Belorussia. Cattle mutilations in Texas and Montana.

AIR SAFETY -- Several of these reports again reflect on the
safety of aircraft around the world. UFOs are being observed by
ground and airborne witnesses and confirmed by radar. Near
misses and other high speed maneuvers conducted by UFOs in
approach corridors to our airports represent a potential safety
hazard. UFOs may also cause electromagnetic troubles in
aircraft that affect navigation, guidance, and flight control
systems. Crews report ducking down in the cockpit and taking
evasive action could result in aircraft losses. China and
Mexico have reported actual airborne collisions with UFOs. A
sudden dive by aircraft possibly avoiding a collision like
Egypt Air Flight 900 should be examined in relation to these
UFO reports.

NEW JERSEY CARTERET CASE INVESTIGATION CONTINUES

CARTERET -- A new witness claims to have observed the structure
of a large Flying Triangle near Sayerville heading for
Carteret. Witnesses further south along the New Jersey Turnpike
saw aircraft on the normal approach to Newark Airport
apparently being diverted because of the presence of UFOs in
the early morning hours of July 15, 2001. It is normal FAA
procedure to divert aircraft away from potential danger without
confirming the presence of UFOs to the aircrews. Unconfirmed
reports indicate that radar's in the New York area picked up a
series of anomalous targets on the night of July 15, 2001,
between 12:25 to 12:55 AM. These targets roughly match the
ground witnesses testimony of seeing lights over the New Jersey
Turnpike. Dozens of cars came to a stop on the Turnpike to
watch the lights as they passed overhead. Carteret is a very
significant case because it occurred the day after the
successful US antimissile test in the Pacific, the so-called
son of Star Wars. We ! can speculate the multiple UFOs were a
response to this test. Russia is strongly opposed to the
development of this Missile Defense System and their
involvement cannot be ruled out at this time.

Carteret is only ten miles from New York City the home of most
major television networks. Numerous police and fireman were
witnesses and took video of the event, that was shown on many
television broadcasts. New York radar operators indicate that
dozens of anomalous targets were racing around the area. There
are wide variations in speed, altitude, and size. Anomalous
targets are those that are not using transponders that are
required for all normal commercial traffic and identify the
aircraft. The anomalous radar returns were flying too slow or
too fast to be normal aircraft and remain unidentified. So far
to my knowledge the government has not denied the sighting and
no military maneuvers have been acknowledged.

MUFON investigator Bob Durant reports, "In the short time the
lights were displayed on screen, it was obvious that they were
moving right to left at a slow but deliberate angular velocity.
There was no relative movement among the lights. The top of a
house or building, and possibly a chimney on a house, is
visible beneath the lights and offer a reference for their
movement. No stars were visible in the video scene. There were
a total of ten lights, arranged in three groups. Beginning from
the left on the screen, which corresponds with the foremost
lights, we see five lights, then a space, then four lights, a
much longer space, and a single light which brings up the rear
of the moving set. There is no obvious symmetry to either the
groups of five and four lights, or to the entire group of
lights. The lights depicted in the video are large, steady and
white, though there is some slight but perceivable variation in
diameter among them. One of the lights momentarily nearly!
"goes out," diminishing to a tiny point, then resuming its
original size." Thanks to Bob Durant.

PENNSYLVANIA TRUCK SIZE CIGAR SHAPED UFOs

PHILADELPHIA -- Truck size cigar shape object over the Blue
Route 476 in the western suburbs. The witness reports, "On
August 10, 2001, at 11:47 AM I was driving to work and directly
ahead of me, a half of a mile or so, I saw an object that
resembled a cigar shape, quickly, zooming over the highway. It
flew over the trees and it disappeared. The craft looked as
though it was about the size of a truck. It seemed to reflect
the sky on the top, and more dark on the bottom half. It was
not high at all, as far as my view, a half mile ahead. It
looked like it was maybe a hundred feet over the highway. If I
were to hold out my arm and clench my fist, the object would be
about half the size of my fist. No one else, as far as I could
see, saw the object. But, because I love looking into the sky,
I am more alert to the stranger objects then most people. This
was not a plane, not a bird, not a helicopter. The object kind
of teetered back and forth as it passed, almost out of con!
trol. Last year, another UFO flew by within a hundred feet from
the ground. Thanks to Peter Davenport at the National Reporting
Center www.ufocenter.com

MCCONNELLSBURG -- "While many people saw the huge fireball
streak across the sky last Monday evening many others are also
reporting seeing a black object with a tail in the western sky
Saturday evening July 29, 2001. Bleachers full of people saw
the object while attending the Grease, Steam and Rust
Association's truck pull at the fairgrounds.

Jane and Bob Lamison of Cooper Lane also saw the object from
their porch Saturday evening at about dusk. They described it
as a large black object with a tail and blinking lights
hovering in the clouds. The object stayed in the same area for
about a half hour. Although not officially identified police
officials said it was probably a surveillance aircraft that the
residents were seeing." The Fulton County News," on August 2,
2001: Thanks to Jon Baughman btbull@pennswoods.net

VIRGINIA PULSATING LIGHTS

ALEXANDRIA - RESTON -- Dennis C. who wrote, "On July 30, 2001,
between 1:00 and 1:20 AM, I sighted something in the western
sky that was pulsating or strobing in 3 to 4 colors. This
object was definitely not an aircraft because it remained
stationary. I attempted to view it using binoculars and a
telescope but was not able to discern a specific shape or
distinctive features. Any visible white light in tiny objects
gets refracted ever so slightly by a possibly damaged
telescope. The strobing appeared as if the object was in
rotation. The colors appeared to include red, green, blue and
yellow, even when viewed with the unaided eye. My wife could
see three colors and she has rather poor night vision, so this
also leads me to believe it was not an aircraft. We both
watched this object for at least 10 minutes until it was fully
obscured by the clouds so it could not have been the
International Space Station. Thanks to Dennis C.and Larry
Bryant

FLORIDA UFOs AND FIGHTERS OBSERVED

ST. PETERSBURG -- ISUR reports that. At about 11:30PM on August
10, 2001, the witness, his son and a friend observed a bright
white colored light/object hovering in the sky over St.
Petersburg. The object moved, then reversed it's direction 180
degrees, turned at sharp angles, and zig-zagged in an
incredible manner. At times the object would stop, then move
forward in short pulse like bursts of speed, then hover for
long periods. After about 15 minutes, several jet fighter type
aircraft appeared, believed by the witness to be from nearby
McDill AFB which is about 5 miles east across Tampa Bay.
Witness stated that these jet aircraft appeared to travel a
course to the southeast as if trying to locate something
because they repeated this two more times, but at a higher
altitude. The light/object remained stationary while the jets
flew this pattern. Eventually, it begin to "drift" and then
smaller lights/objects appeared from all directions, they too
drifting, but toward ! the primary object, then all finally
became motionless. These activities continued for over an hour.
Thanks to Tom Sheets, ISUR Board-State Director MUFONGA and D.

OHIO SMOOTH, ROUNDED, SILENT, FLYING TRIANGLE

BLANCHESTER -- On July 31, 2001, at 11:50 PM, the witness
relates, "I was driving southeast on Route 123, when I saw a
Flying Triangular shaped object. The tips of it were very
smooth and round. There was a white light in each corner and a
bright red light in the middle. It hovered there for about 30
seconds. As I came closer it shot over to the north and came to
a complete dead stop. It didn't start slow or slow down to
stop. It stopped as fast as it went. It just sat there in the
sky perfectly still. It stayed there for about 1 1/2 minutes. I
then turned onto my street and could not see it for a minute
because of trees. Then I saw it hovering over a house. It took
me two minutes to reach my driveway. I couldn't see it anymore
until it shot across the sky tremendously fast. Faster than any
aircraft and be completely silent. It shot over my house, flew
two houses north of mine, and hovered in my neighbor's field.
It wasn't very far from their house. It just sat! there
hovering with no movement or sound, like it was watching me. I
sat in my car for two minutes and watched. I was stunned but
ran into my house to get my video camera, but I had forgotten
to recharge the battery. I was in my house for about a minute
and ran back outside and it was still there. We looked at each
other for about 50-60 seconds and it was gone. It was so smooth
and graceful and never changed altitude or shape. It was larger
than a full moon. Peter Davenport felt she was an excellent and
credible witness.

FRANKLIN -- MUFON OHIO State Director Bill Jones received word
of a sighting that occurred on August 3, 2001, from MUFON's
Scott Arnette in Louisiana. The UFO witness, Mr. Greg Banks of
Franklin, reported he was awakened around 2:00 AM, when a
bright light flashed through his window. He then heard a
"thunder like" sound. Scott Arnette said that Mr. Banks claimed
that no thunderstorms were in the area. The hair on his arm
seemed to stand up. Mr. Banks went outside on the porch and saw
a bright white light or sphere in the sky. An aspirin tablet
held at arm's length would not cover this light. It was
traveling slowly. Then it stopped over a wood line to the east
at about two miles. The light bobbed up and down when a smaller
white light came out from underneath it and bobbed around like
a cork in the water. It also moved around the parent object for
a time, but mostly stayed underneath it. The moon was visible
to the south. He tried to take a picture of the light. G! reg
notified MUFON while this hour long event was going on. Scott
Arnette called the Springboro police but was unable to get
confirmation of the sighting. He asked the police to call him
back, but they never did.

INVESTIGATION -- Investigator Kenny Young reports he contacted
the witness who sounded alert and explained that he had never
seen anything like this before and was not medicated and had
been sober during the event. He asserted his inability to
explain the sighting. His mother, who he said is extremely
religious, also saw the object after he awakened her. She said,
it was "something very unusual." The witness recounted the same
details as he told Bill Jones, and added it was over
Springboro. Interestingly, Greg informs that the sound of
helicopters were heard several minutes into the event while he
was standing in the yard and talking on the phone with Scott in
Louisiana. Greg states that he could not visually see
helicopters or ascertain the source of the helicopter noise. He
was not familiar with any recent UFO sightings. His sighting
has similarities to the recent nearby Waynesville police/UFO
sighting in that the object first appeared near to the witness
and then re! ceded into the distance over a brief period of
time. This location is 25 miles south of Wright Patterson Air
Force Base. The Springboro Police Department advised they had
no relevant UFO sightings. Banks was a friendly and cooperative
witness. Thanks to Scott Arnette, Bill Jones, KENNY YOUNG U F O
R e s e a r c h http://home.fuse.net/ufo/

ILLINOIS UFOs ENDANGER AIR TRAFFIC

DOWNERS GROVE -- A glowing, gold/orange cylinder-shaped object
was observed on August 1, 2001, flying northeast toward Chicago
at 8:15 PM. The area of observation is near O'Hare and Midway
airports, and several jet aircraft were in the area flying in
normal traffic patterns. We noticed the object was flying
nearly at the same altitude of the jet aircraft, but much
faster. The object all at once slowed down as a B-757 aircraft
departed Midway airport, westbound and flew past our position.
We were amazed at this behavior, as if the object was observing
the jet. The object then accelerated to the northeast and
disappeared in a wink as a B-727 came into view from the east.
The 727 entered the O'Hare inbound traffic pattern, flying
downrange and turning 180 degrees to begin a final approach. We
stood in disbelief to what we just witnessed. It seemed that
object was right on top of the 727 and then just vanished.
Based upon my 25 years in the airline industry, knowing aircr!
aft performance, physical characteristics, and traffic patterns
flown by commercial aircraft in this area, I have never seen
such a strange object or vehicle in this area. I am quite
certain the object was not a military or commercial aircraft.
Based upon the following observations: 1) Aircraft operating in
the area were distinguished by familiar physical
characteristics, dark in appearance with wings, landing lights
and anti-collision lights easily seen and flying in a pattern.
2) The object was a glowing, gold/orange cylinder with NO wings
and NO tail section; it changed speeds, and immediately
vanished. I have witnessed UFO's hovering near the ground, and
flying at altitude in the western US I have never seen an
object or UFO enter controlled airspace until this incident,
and frankly, the episode was chilling. I am very concerned
about the possibility of these vehicles colliding with
commercial aircraft. Peter Davenport spoke at length with this
witness, and we found ! him to be quite credible with
considerable experience in the aviation/airline industry.

EVANSTON -- On August 7, 2001, I looked up at 10:20 PM and saw
a streak of light and then it slowed down. I couldn't tell the
exact distance but I would estimate 200 to 300 yards away. It
was traveling very slowly like it was looking for something. I
noticed that there were lights all around the side of the ship.
It was kind of like a Flying Triangle with a broad side in the
front going to a point in the back. The two front tips seemed
to have two brighter lights then the rest. It moved real slow
for about 15-20 seconds, and then streaked off to the north.
All lights on the Triangle were bright hazy white.

WHEATON -- On August 6, 2001, while standing in the backyard of
my sister's home around 4:00 PM, playing with my three year old
nephew, I happened to glance up and saw a round whitish-silvery
circle. It looked about the size of a pinhead from where I
stood, motionless in a clear blue sky. It seemed to be as high
as a commercial jet. I I watched for about a minute, and then
it shot upwards at a rapid speed, which caught me off guard,
causing me to sort of startle, until I could no longer see it.

CHICAGO -- The witness reports, "Ten of my friends were sitting
outside on a patio at 3:15 AM, on August 9, 2001. Twenty
minutes after some of us saw a very bright meteor overhead we
saw an object in the southeast heading northwest at a constant
rate of speed. As it grew closer it appeared to be diamond
shaped and orange in color. It flew directly overhead and at
its closest appeared possibly 3/4 the disk of a full moon.
There was a near full moon this night and I saw it pass in
front of a bright star which confirmed to me that is was indeed
a solid object. It appeared to be luminescent in some fashion,
but the moon was very bright. Several people in the group
described several small points of light, "like the ends of a
fiber optic cable" said one friend (number varies between 6 and
7) offset but surrounding the diamond shape. I very clearly saw
the orange body of the object and it made no noise. Minutes
after the object disappeared from sight an airplane took off
heading east over our heads from O'Hare airport. The comparison
to a low flying commercial airplane was easily dismissed as we
observed blinking navlights on the wing tips of the plane, take
off lights and an audible engine noise. The observed craft had
neither of these. A girl in the group grabbed her 35 mm camera
and took two photographs the UFO as it departed. The group of
witnesses we! re 24 to 30 years of age working in fields from
business to art. Peter Davenport interviewed this witness, and
found him to be an excellent observer and reporter of the
facts.

Editor's Note: Radar controllers have been reporting
unidentified flying objects in the approach area to Chicago
airports. Aircraft have been diverted and the radar anomalies
were blamed. I suggest our ground reports from reliable
witnesses indicate UFOs are regularly flying in the area.

WISCONSIN 500 REPORT UFOs

WAUSAU -- MUFON John Schuessler reports that some 300 people
called WIFC-FM (95.5) local radio personality Tony Brueske
claiming they had witnessed a mysterious green or blue light
floating over Wausau. WIFC Program Director Danny Wright has
provided MUFON with a CD of calls indicating nearly 500 calls.
They all saw a green or blue light moving north really low in
the sky." "Hi, this is Tina in Antigo," one caller said. "I saw
it, too at 11:20 PM moving north. When I first saw it, it was
almost white, then it was bluish-green." No one can explain why
500 people from Stevens Point to Minocqua, phoned a radio
station to report the light. "I'd say it was probably the
International Space Station (ISS)," said Arnie Nelson, former
director of the planetarium at Wausau West High School. "I
didn't see it, but that's about the timing it would be, and the
brightness." The ISS orbits 250 miles above the Earth, and its
brightness varies with its path and weather conditions.
According to www.heavens-above.com, the ISS passed over Wausau
moving northeast at about 10:30 PM. Thanks to State Director
Chad Lewis and Nicholas D. Roesler Assistant State Director and
"WAUSAU Daily Herald" (8/3/01 By Peter J. Wasson

CANADA HOVERING DISK SHAPED OBJECT AND MANY OTHER UFOs

KELOWNA, BC -- The witness states, "At 11:30 PM, I observed a
disk shaped object hovering silently 500 feet above Dillworth
Mountain on August 7, 2001. The disk had a large red and white
ball of light in the center. The color of the disk appeared
black against the night sky and produced no sound. The object
turned down the illumination of the center red and white ball
of light like a dimmer switch.

VICTORIA, BC -- Peter Davenport phoned me to report on the
August 12, 2001, sighting of a group of UFOs flying in
formation above the city. While going outside for a smoke at
12:15 AM, I noticed five people at the wedding reception
pointing at the sky. Just as we finished discussing the
shooting star, which I had just witnessed, one of the people in
the group yelled, "What is that?" and pointed above us looking
east in the night sky. It was a group of about 6-7 oval shaped
objects traveling in a straight-line formation. They didn't
seem to be lit up by their own luminescence but since they were
traveling over Victoria near the city center it looked as
though the city lights lighted them up. The objects appeared to
be a grayish in color. To my shock there was about 6 or 7 stars
in a hexagonal pattern, but the stars were moving like they
were doing a show. They were in a semicircle and the circle
sort of broke a bit. Then one by one they started to move
farther away and ! sped off at a high rate of speed. The
wedding videographer was able to tape some of the event as we
pointed to the UFOs. The objects continued a slow climb in the
square shape formation. They got smaller and disappeared.
Thanks to Peter Davenport.

TEXAS AND MONTANA REPORT CATTLE MUTILATIONS

CALDWELL -- Jim Henderson of the "Houston Chronicle" 7/31
reports that prize bull mutilations leave Texas ranchers
guessing at the cause. Similar cattle mutilations are reported
in Montana and the West. The prize bulls of Burleson County are
dying. The troubling questions are how and, more importantly,
why. Some ranchers talk of a cult that drains the blood of the
animals for use in satanic rituals. The sheriff believes most
of the animals are dying of natural causes but admits he is
perplexed by some of the circumstances. An investigator for a
cattlemen's association chalks up some of the deaths to thieves
stealing body parts, rather than meat. Cattle have been turning
up dead under what ranchers consider "mysterious" circumstances
at almost predictable intervals -- once or twice a year, around
the time of Halloween or Easter -- for nearly a decade. "I
don't know what it is," said Johnny Lyon, who lost a valuable
Charolais bull last Easter. "It could be a prankster, ! but if
it is the other (a cult) it could be pretty dangerous." Rarely
is there evidence to back them up. Nevertheless, ranchers in
Burleson County believe there is something more than
storytelling going on there. When Lyon found his bull at the
rear of a 300-acre pasture, its abdomen had been split open and
its genitals removed. He said that has been a consistent
pattern in previous incidents. There were no signs -- claw or
teeth marks -- to suggest that his cow had been killed by a
coyote or other predator and "there was not a drop of blood on
the body or the ground," the rancher said. The cause of death
was not apparent; body organs and, sometimes, tongues were
removed while the valuable meat was untouched. In most cases,
the genitals were removed. And, Lyon said, it appeared in each
case that the blood had been drained from the bodies. The
latest deaths have attracted little attention, except among
ranchers. "I haven't heard any talk about it," said Caldwell
Polic! e Chief Virgil Hurt. http://www.rense.com.

AUSTRALIA ORANGE BALLS OF LIGHT

ROCKINGHAM -- On July 28, 2001, Brian Richard's phone rang off
the hook for two hours as scores of witnesses reported seeing
five bright orange lights travel slowly over Waikiki and
Warnboro, south of Perth at 8:00 PM. They headed south with one
in front. Three were in a straight horizontal line. The lights
seemed to pulse in unison and faded out beyond Warnboro. They
were observed for some 15 minutes. At 8:30 PM a single orange
light appeared from the north and performed a series of aerial
maneuvers, zigzagging about and moving up and down, side to
side before fading out. At 9:10 PM two more appeared traveling
southeast. One of the callers related his dog was barking
excessively and' running around. This doesn't sound like
pranksters setting off hot air balloons made from orange
garbage bags and paraffin-wax firelighters suspended
underneath. Not one witness out of the twenty I spoke to
believed these were hot air balloons. Thanks to Brian
Richards's brianr@cleo.mur! doch.edu.au

ENGLAND GLOWING OBJECT

TYNESIDE -- UFOzone witness report: I was out walking my dog on
August 11, 2001, around twenty to Twelve at night when I saw
something strange suddenly appear to the right of where I was
walking. I was on Station Road walking with Ralf, my Dog. The
object was strangely glowing. I stood and watched for a few
minutes wondering what it was when I saw a larger object, which
had the same kind of glow to it, come out of no where and
seemingly disappear when it came into contact with the smaller
object. Its not surprising so many people witnessed the event.
The object from what I could make out hovered for some time,
and looked kind of round, but it seemed to change shape every
so often, and move at high speeds up and around the sky. UPDATE
-- Two witnesses reported that the UFO returned, on August 11,
and could be seen over the sea near Tyneside. Witnesses watched
the light for an hour and fifteen minutes and again moving in a
triangular range of motion covering "four fists" ! measured as
the reporter held his arm aloft. Thanks to Dan
editor@ufozone.co.uk

TURKEY PILOTS CHASE UFO

AEGEAN SEA -- Two Turkish pilots from the 122nd Squadron while
on a routine training flight in a U.S.-made T-37 off the
coastal town of Candarli notified their home base control tower
that a bright object had approached their plane at high speed
and reportedly gyrated around them for about a half hour on
August 6, 2001. The Turkish newspaper "Hurriyet" quoted their
call: "Object approaching the wings. Now it's behind the plane,
now it's in front of us." They told their controller and the
regional war alert center of the Turkish army that the apparent
Unidentified Flying Object had an unusual shape. 1/Lt. Dincer,
the pilot radioed, "We are facing an unusual situation. We see
an object shaped like a cross between a cone and a disc, with
support legs, extremely luminous and high speed". Later, the
Turkish Air Force announced that the UFO was a weather balloon.
The quakes in the Caspian Sea several months back, were also
accompanied by UFO sightings. Thanks to Cinde Costello ! SSD,
MUFON-
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/turkey010808_ufo
.html

Editor's Note: It was not explained how the pilots could chase
a balloon with support legs for a half hour without being able
to identify it correctly.

BELORUSSIAN FLYING TRIANGLE UFO

MINSK (BELARUS') -- On July 19, 2001, at 11:20 PM, Michael
Goldencov, a journalist, and his girlfriend Olga Korotkina, a
student of Minsk State University noticed a triangle object
high in the night sky of Minsk, Belorussian capital. The guys
walked opposite the Lithuanian Embassy when Michael saw strange
sparkling lights that he first considered to be an aircraft's
signal lights. The object flew making square turns. The shape
of it was triangle with like a police car sparkling big lights
in each corner. Michael and Olga watched the sparkling lights
for two minutes. Michael Goldencov said, "I think that it was
scanning the city and filming it. I am sure that somebody else
had to see it because the object was pretty slow and stayed
above the city. No doubt the police and militaries saw this
object." Thanks to Vadim Deruzhinsky, Editor-in-Chief of the
Secret Researches Analytic Journal vd@gtp.by

SINGAPORE UFO SIGHTING

On Sunday night July 29, 2001, at about 11:45 PM, my two
daughters and I witnessed a UFO hovering over the air base in
the north of Singapore. The moon was shining very brightly and
the UFO appeared as an egg or like that of a hamburger bun. The
UFO was silver in color and 25 feet high and about 70 feet
wide. It had 4 huge portholes on its side. The UFO had five
lights spread over the side of the space ship and the lights
were situated between the 4 portholes. The first, third and
fifth lights were small round white lights while the second and
fourth were orange lights. AT the back of UFO was a big red
flashing red light. On the top of the UFO, somewhere mid-ship
is a semi-flat white light that did not flash. The UFO was
hovering about 120 to 160 feet above the ground over the air
base helicopter squadron. The speed of the hovering craft is
estimated at or between 2 to 10 miles per hour. I have 12 years
of naval service and have not seen an air plane capable of
doing! such acts. Thanks to LOOKIN4ET.

Dr. Robert Trundle's "UFOs: POLITICS, GOD AND SCIENCE"
(European Press, 320 pages) is praised by Harvard Medical
School's Dr. John Mack and NASA's Dr. Richard Haines. Dr. Mack
stated, "Only a philosopher could have written [and
defended]... that it is not correct to say that 'descriptions
of a UFO are necessarily wrong because they violate our
scientific theories'." Dr. Haines said "You are about to be
treated to a most interesting journey into... the mysteries
that swirl about the subject of UFO phenomena." By examining
current science, with inclusion of scientists at the US Air
Force Academy, the case for nonhumans visiting earth is that
current science cannot exclude it and that reliable witnesses
affirm the visitation. Besides including witness reports, Dr.
Trundle also sheds new light on science and religion: A
religious and scientific belief system may well be shared at
some level by humans and extraterrestrials in virtue of the
physical nature of the universe. Thi! s suggests that many
alien species are not only more "friend" than "foe" but
biologically similar to humans. Nevertheless, all of these
points are resisted strenuously by most university
professors-those most protected to pursue truth because of the
tenure system. Dr. Trundle, with humor, quotes scathing
comments of his work just because it seriously considers UFOs.
He reveals how a trendy political correctness poses the
greatest obstacle to intelligent investigations of, what would
be, the most astonishing event in human history: the visitation
of nonhumans to earth. This is the first UFO book by a
university philosopher. It can be ordered by e-mail from the
distributor Casalini (http://www.casalini.it), The Book Place
(http://www.thebookplace.com), or directly from the European
Press for approximately $27.00. More information on the book is
also listed at "amazon.co.uk."

LARGEST UFO CD-ROM IN EXISTENCE The Black Vault has unveiled
thousands of documents relating to the UFO phenomenon. Some,
have never been published in electronic form, nor have other
seen even the light of day. Declassified in recent years, this
CD holds over 5,000 pages of material, covering the past
half-century of government involvement in the UFO field of
research. From the CIA recently declassified documents to the
FBI. From the NSA to the DIA, this CD has a fantastic archive,
ready to browse with high-resolution scans. Easily read and
easily navigated, this research tool will be used for years to
come! To order, call toll free, (866) 828-2858 or outside the
continental US, (818) 886-0131. Or order online today,
http://www.blackvaultstore.com

  MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
  reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL for $30 per year by
  contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended you for
  membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2001 by George A.
  Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the
  files on their Web Sites provided that they credit the
  newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue
  that the item appeared. These reports and comments are not
  necessarily the official MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
  Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants
  permission for us to publish and use your name. Please state
  if you wish to keep your name, address, or story confidential.
  Caution, most of these are initial reports and require further
  investigation.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Aug > Aug 16

                   Re: Ramey Message 'Eagle Seal' - Morris

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 17:09:41 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 07:57:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey Message 'Eagle Seal' - Morris


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 21:35:57 EDT
 >Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 10:00:55 -0400
 >Subject: Ramey Message 'Eagle Seal' [was: Review of

 >>Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 17:30:01 +0100
 >>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'

 >Neil,

 >I give you numbers you give me doubletalk. It is text of a
 >message, not an image of a bird, an eagle!

 >Do we only get pelicanism out of the UK these days?

 >I gave you specific _quantitative_ measurements of the angles of
 >orientation of the paper - which you totally ignore because you
 >can't refute them - and you respond by pointing to irrelevant
 >minor ripples or deviations from a flat surface.

Brad,

Sorry for the delay in response, real life intervened plus it
took me longer to get a couple of images I want to reference in
the following onto my website.

But to continue re the above...

You give _one_ all encompassing angle of 15 degrees, I think
this is an over generalisation of the situation. That upper
section of the message is both folded and curved and though some
points _might_ present a 15 degree profile to the camera, others
undoubtedly _don't_.

You have continuously changing angles of presentation to the
camera above and below a mean, caused by those "insignificant",
as you call them, ripples in the paper.

 >You overlay an "eagle seal" over the Ramey message that is about
 >45� off horizontal whereas the Ramey paper is itself at about
 >15� in that top-left corner.

That top left corner itself is curving, check it's illumination.

 >Your seal overlay is therefore
 >grossly improperly positioned by a factor of three, an error of
 >300%, a few degrees' deviation for ripples or curves makes no
 >dent in the size of the overall error, of 300%. How can there
 >possibly be any dispute over this? Is it because angles are
 >involved? Is it because numbers are involved? Do people just
 >tune out as soon as they see a number or a concept they think is
 >too intricate? Why is this so hard? This problem would make a
 >laughingstock in any university math or physics department in
 >the world.

But because of the curvatures in the sheet, it _is_ possible for
a seal/stamp located where I claim to see it to be visible as
it's seen in the image. A practical _real_world_ demonstration
shows this to be the case.

 >Your "demo" seal is properly oriented at the 15� angle -

I would even dispute this, as I believe the "seal" area is on a
rising curved surface...see later.

 >it's
 >your _overlay_ seal that is grossly in error. The difference is
 >obvious. In effect, your overlay seal is standing up off the
 >plane of the paper, yet you claim it represents images _on_ the
 >paper amounting to a U.S. official seal like the Defense
 >Department seal (which did not exist for more than 2 more years,
 >when the NME became the DoD in Aug 1949).

The "overlay" image was created purely as an aid in
comprehending the overall image of the seal as I see it in the
photograph, it is an illustrative tool only.

And I _do_not_ claim the seal is that of the DoD, again the 3
shown on the site merely illustrate the form of seals in use
around the time. You may not be aware but I would hazard a guess
many people outside the US like myself would not be too familiar
with the distinct double rim form US Govt/Military all seem to
take.

 >If your "eagle seal" actually existed it would have to float
 >nearly 1 inch above and away from the surface of the Ramey
 >message, in the top-left corner. Thus, it is a physical
 >impossibility. What you are imagining is unreal.

The demo paper challenges this assumption, do the experiment.

 >(The trigonometry on this is high-school level. Let me spell it
 >out in words so the numbers and trig functions don't paralyze
 >the mind: The difference between the inclination angle of your
 >overlay seal and the Ramey paper top-left corner is thirty
 >degrees. So it's the sine of thirty degrees times the one and a
 >half inch diameter of the seal, or three-fourths inch height
 >above the paper of the far edge of the seal. Round off to one
 >then _overlaying_ and comparing the image blob-by-blob with the
 >real thing. You have not done the overlay of a seal at 15� (your
 >overlay is at 45�). You have not done the point-by-point
 >comparison - and you cannot because they don't compare and it
 >is glaringly obvious. Your demo eagle is correctly shown as so
 >flattened due to the angle that you cannot compare wing to wing,
 >talon to talon, head to head with the real Ramey message image
 >-- if there had really been an eagle on the Ramey mes sage it
 >would be so flattened by the angle of the paper it wouldn't even
 >be recognizable as such.

 >My best estimate of the size of your eagle inside the seal is
 >about 8 millimeters high by about double that in width, when
 >laid full on to view. If this is tilted to 15� in the vertical
 >then the eagle shrinks to only 2 millimeters in height, but
 >retaining the same width. How on earth can you see any shapes of
 >wings, head, talons, in an image only 2 mm tall, under ordinary
 >viewing conditions, perhaps projected on a computer screen?

 >You can't do an overlay comparison because in fact what _you_
 >see as an "eagle" inside a double-circle "seal" is in reality
 >scattered blobs of text stretching across about the entire top
 >2-3 inches of the Ramey paper from the center fold upward. It's
 >like seeing faces in a tortilla or a cloud.

 >You do not seem to even grasp that the issue here is one of
 >_vertical_ distortion. Your eagle when laid flat is a little
 >over a quarter-inch high, about 0.3 inch, which is roughly 10%
 >of the height of the top half of the Ramey message. If overlaid
 >onto text your eagle from top to bottom would cover about the
 >separation of 1 line of text, in height (the message has space
 >for about 10 lines of text in the bottom half, and 10% is
 >therefore 1, simple math, but also easily measured in the photos
 >on your website). When the eagle is tilted as in your demo it is
 >compressed in the vertical dimension but so is the paper and it
 >therefore still maintains the same fraction 10% of the height of
 >the top half of the paper.

 >But what _you_ interpret as an "eagle" in the Ramey Message
 >photo is so wildly distorted that it is comprised of blobs of
 >text spread across about 30% of the height of the top half of
 >the paper, or 3 lines of text in height, and then merged in your
 >mind into the form of a supposed "eagle."

 >Again, it is text of a message, not an image of a bird!

 >Your 45� "eagle seal" is totally imaginary because it doesn't
 >lay flat on the plane of the Ramey paper. Indeed it would have
 >to be larger than the paper itself in order stretch sufficiently
 >so as to match the eagle shape to the blobs you have picked out
 >on the Ramey paper that are actually words - not eagle wings or
 >talons or whatever. This has nothing to do with whether a file
 >clerk misstamped a seal off the edge of the paper. I'm talking
 >about vertical distortion by 300% that is so great that when
 >_you_ - not some file clerk 47 years ago - overlaid the eagle
 >seal in a way that you thought matched the ink blots on the
 >Ramey message most closely, it ran off the page in the vertical
 >dimension. The issue is the amount of vertical distortion. If
 >250% vertical distortion of the purported "eagle" and round
 >"seal" came just to the edge of the paper and didn't run off, it
 >still would be a physical impossibility. Going off the edge just
 >makes it look more ridiculous. It is still a physical absurdity.

I fully understand your maths Brad, and it's quite valid on flat
planes, unfortunately the message paper is _not_ a flat plane,
that very corner you use as reference for you maths is actually
curving upwards so presenting as I've said, a far greater angle,
take note of it's illumination. This gives a good direct
indication of the angle of the paper presented to the camera as
the illumination source was next to the camera.

You can see that the opposite corner, the right hand, of the
message paper also shows lighter, indicating that it too is
curling and presenting a steeper angle to the camera, I asked
for your comments on the large underlined header seen there, the
last letter being a _visible_ "L" (this observed by a number of
the researchers into the message) you failed to comment on this
other than by decrying my use of the term "mechanism" to
encompass the method allowing these letters to be _visible_ and
read (undistorted by significant vertical distortion?).

If that visible "L" remains relatively undistorted and readable
via that "mechanism", why shouldn't details at the other side of
the same page exhibit the same results under similar
conditions?.

 >>There was only 1 example sheet used in
 >>the demo images and you see it in one image fully opened, this
 >>same demo sheet produced IMHO a very convincing mock up of what
 >>is seen in the Ramey Message image. As for quibbles regarding
 >>seal sizes etc, I produced demo sheets with seals sized larger
 >>and smaller than the one finally used, all produced similar
 >>results, the one used seemed closest sizewise to the original,
 >>but producing an identical copy was not my aim in this exercise.>

 >>>(I have to infer and estimate these dimensions because he does
 >>>not bother to give them to us on the webpage, a very incomplete
 >>>procedure to say the least.

 >>If you give me the exact dimensions of the Ramey Message I'll
 >>re-run the experiment, as it is there is little scale reference

 >This is called blowing smoke, Neil. You have at hand your own
 >piece of paper you photographed for the demo, which is what I
 >was talking about, don't force me to have to reprint the entire
 >posting just to prove from English language sentence structure
 >that that was what I was referring to. Give it to us instead of
 >engaging in irrelevant distractions about the Ramey message's
 >dimensions. Don't leave us having to guess whether you drew in a
 >1.5-inch seal or a 2-inch seal or whatever on your own piece of
 >paper. You know exactly the size or can measure it and tell us.
 >The same for the size of the paper you drew it on - is it 5 x 7
 >inches, 4 x 6 or what? This is just basic scientific procedure
 >in any experiment.

For what it's worth, the demo sheets I put together were 8.25" x
6" (I believe now the ratio w/h was nearer 1:1 as now observed
in the Bettmann image).

I produced 3 sheets each bearing a mockup seal who's outer rim
was located 1/2" in from the top and left corner edges. Of the 3
sizes produced, 2 were based on actual seals in use between 1945
and 1950 by the US military, 1 3/4" used by USAAF Far East(hand
stamp), 1 5/16" used by AFHQ Washington, the 3rd slightly
smaller comparison was 1 1/4 " in diameter. In the website demo
images the size used was that of the AFHQ Washington 1 5/16".

The mockup seal/stamp was placed square, eagle up, as the observed
seal/stamp appears to be squarely placed, see image:

http://www.thefortworthphotographs.freeserve.co.uk/images/rlet-stamp3.jpg

The eagle shape is placed within a darker square who's edges are
observed to be (within a reasonable margin of error) placed
parallel to the left edge of the message paper. In the image
above, distances from the corners B and B' ie lines AB and A'B'
are equal(+-2pixels). Had the shape not been square on to the
edge the distances would be unequal.

 >>to be had within the FW pictures and to run complex 3d modeling
 >>software on the images that might give such sizes accurately
 >>it's required to know exact details of the camera/lens system
 >>used. As the Speed Graphic had interchangeable lens and was
 >>supplied with a range of "standard" lens, and as JBJ has no
 >>recollection of lens used (why should he) it would require
 >>finding a known scaled feature in the same plane as the message
 >>just to estimate sizes. Seals used around that time varied
 >>greatly in size, I've seen samples in use on period documents
 >>from 3/4" thro 2+", they could be part of a letter head and pre
 >>printed or in the form of a "hand stamp" or machine date/time
 >>stamp, all seem to have the familiar tram-lines inner and outer
 >>rim as seen on the message

 >Gawd you make all this so damned hard! If you had done this
 >right you would have put on the webpage right from the outset a
 >clear statement of your experimental protocol something like: "I
 >do not have the exact dimensions of the Ramey paper. A close
 >estimate would be about 5 x 7 inches so therefore I took a piece
 >of paper of those dimensions [or whatever the exact numbers
 >_YOU_ have to fill it in] and folded and creased it in such a
 >way as to try to simulate the folds and curves of the Ramey
 >message, after drawing in an eagle seal of 1.5 inches diameter
 >[again _YOU_ put in the correct number for the diameter] located
 >1 inch [ditto] from the top and left margins in the to-left
 >corner." Is that so doggone hard???

 >No wonder scientists won't touch Ufology - you have to fight
 >over basics and even the meaning of the English language just to
 >be understood on simple concepts. Forget it if it comes to more
 >complicated concepts!

 >Do you know what the meaning of "is" is, Neil?

I didn't know you required a scientific paper on the subject.


Reviewing what I _have_ written at:

www.rpit.org

The experimental "demonstrations" are clearly indicated as just
that and don't claim to be anything more, maybe it's their
simplicity in demonstrating the point that upsets you?.

 >>>So if I am a little off, and maybe
 >>>the "seal" is say only 1.25 inches across, all the other figures
 >>>should be scaled accordingly, and it has absolutely no effect on
 >>>my conclusions whatsoever which depend solely on the relative
 >>>scale or ratios between the various dimensions not on their
 >>>absolute values.)

 >>Brad, I'd have no arguments if we were dealing with _flat_
 >>folded paper but we're not, the top left of that sheet curves up
 >>and presents itself at a far more favorable angle than you
 >>accept, but check out the way the paper is illuminated in the
 >>image. That left corner is bright compared to say the area just
 >>above the thumbnail, yes, how so?, if this was a flat surface
 >>the observed illumination would be uniform. The only way, seeing
 >>this image was illuminated from a point source close by the
 >>camera must be that the angle of the corner's surface is raised
 >>at a greater angle than that in the thumb area, as I say you
 >>cannot treat the message paper as a flat surface because it
 >>isn't flat, the top half of the message isn't you're uniform 15
 >>degrees or otherwise to the observation plane because the
 >>observed illumination isn't uniform, it changes with the curves
 >>and folds of the paper.

 >More smoke and mirrors. I have already refuted this above. Don't
 >make me have to repeat it all.

No you just repeated your "flat paper" conclusions when simple
observations of the sheet show it _isn't_ flat and your surface
model calculations need to take into account this _fact_.

When I first thought I observed the seal feature I too thought
it impossible for such a feature to be visible at such an acute
angle to the camera, but I had to account for what I was seeing.
Was it distorted text, as you offer?. But the curved "tramlines"
of the rim _are_ visible _and_ they contain angled letters, if
you care to look there _is_ a very visible "A" correctly
positioned/angled in relation to the inner and outer rim lines,
this is not part of a horizontal line of text.

Look closely at the "emboss" filtered lower left image at:

http://www.thefortworthphotographs.freeserve.co.uk/images/rlet-stamp3.jpg

the "tramlines are clearly seen at point "C" as is the regular
squared shape in which the "eagle" sits, it's "wings" run
parallel with this square's upper edge as indicated in the
larger upper image.

You will also note that only part of the seal image is visible,
the upper portion and lower portions are not visible, only a
central band is seen.

In thinking of a feasible situation that could make this
possible let's look at those "insignificant ripples in the
paper", let's think about what actually happens as one of these
curving planes rises from the mean observing angle, as the curve
rises the angle it presents to the observer increases and
distortions decrease, as the curve goes over it's peak
visibility is again lost, if the curve is steep enough as I
believe it is in this case, the peak of the curve in the paper
can block sight of the rest of the paper behind, and creates the
impression of an edge.

This scenario is just what can be observed with the seal, the
lower section is lost in distortion, the central section in the
favorable part of the curve and visible and the section you
claim is off the page is, I believe, over the top of the curve
and so blocked from view, the edge you see there is not I
believe, the edge of the paper but the peak of the curve
blocking sight of the real edge which is hidden behind it.

But don't take my word for this grab a sheet of paper preferably
with lines of text or having a grid layout, put some ripples and
curves in it and look at it at some acute angles, see just how
those ripples and curves allow sections to pop up and be seen
and read.

 >>If you want to see just how curved the paper is take a close
 >>look at the paper as seen in the Bettmann Ramey Dubose image
 >>where the paper can be seen fully unfolded but text side away
 >>from the camera. If you look at the lower edge, though this is
 >>intersected by the main fold it's quite evident the paper is
 >>holding a distinct curve, in fact one could say this might
 >>support the premise the message had only recently been around
 >>the roller in a typewriter and supporting the thought it
 >>originated locally at FWAAF.

 >Again more smoke and mirrors delving into irrelevancies in a
 >non-quantitative way about what in effect amounts to quibbles
 >over whether the paper is at a 13� angle or a 15� angle at
 >certain points in the top-left corner. Irrelevant!

 >As for a typewriter, then what is all that teletype
 >tractor-feed-type ribbon coming off the left edge of the paper?
 >If Ramey had just sent the message don't you think he would keep
 >a file copy of the actual message not just a typewritten draft?

To my knowledge Teletypes back then as with the 1960's model in
my loft _didn't_ use tractor feed paper, just plane or multi
carbon rolls.

You might also note on Line 2 of the message towards the line
end, a few line spacing mis-alignments of a nature almost
impossible to reproduce on a printing teletype.

 >>>He has his interpretation of the "seal" oriented so that the top
 >>>is at the natural 12 o'clock position on the computer screen
 >>>that one would expect. But if you look at the top edge of the
 >>>Ramey paper you must rotate your head about 30� to the right, to
 >>>the 1 o'clock position, to properly view the paper in the upper
 >>>left corner at the correct orientation. Thus his interpretation
 >>>of the alleged "seal" is actually rotated about 30� incorrectly.
 >>>(His paper simulation fails to correctly match the Ramey paper
 >>>on this point since it conveniently only rotates about 15� to
 >>>the right, hiding half the rotation error.)

 >>If this was a handstamp the orientation could be way out
 >>depending on how the clerk that struck it slept the night
 >>before, but as I mention above the demo sheet was produced just
 >>to demo a point not as a detailed reproduction. I think deducing
 >>exact orientation of the seal is highly debatable considering
 >>the small amount of image data available but those twin seal rim
 >>tramtracks _are_ there and visible.

 >No they're not, you're seeing things. I have first generation
 >high-res prints directly from the negative done at varying
 >contrast levels from UTA archives and I see no such "twin seal
 >rim."

 >Your imagination has run wild and you're connecting up the dots
 >of dust or dirt on the negative. The double-circle rim of your
 >supposed seal if it really existed would be floating an inch
 >above the paper.

Brad, I too have 1st generation prints from the UTA negatives, I
also have copies of both sets of scans direct from the original
UTA RameyDubose neg, the curved "tramlines" can be seen in all
versions. Check the image noted above, that from my 1st gen
11x14 prints.

As regarding the seal orientation again check the image above,
as I mention, the edge you take as the top edge I believe is
debatable. If you take your reference from the left edge, the
seal _is_ set square on the paper.

<snip>

 >>>I bring up these examples because here at least we can deal with
 >>>_quantitative_ measurements about which there can be no real
 >>>doubt, and subject to easy independent calculation, just take a
 >>>ruler on your computer screen and all you have to know is a
 >>>little trigonometry. And it shows that his interpretations when
 >>>quantitatively checked are way off the mark, so much so that he
 >>>is misinterpreting lines of horizontal text as a graphic image
 >>>at a skewed angle.

 >>And if you do place a ruler on the screen you'll get some idea
 >>just how curved these surfaces are, try putting your ruler under
 >>a line of text!.

 >More red herrings (herrons? pelicans?) as distractions to avoid
 >connecting with the point I actually made. I said you're not
 >quantitative and you reply with no numbers, just irrelevancies.
 >We're not talking about the text of the bottom half of the
 >message, where one can put a ruler under the line of text and
 >see how wavy it is. We're talking about the top-left corner of
 >the top half of the Ramey message!

 >If one spot in the top-left corner is at 13� and another at 15�
 >it doesn't at all come close to rescuing your totally imaginary
 >"eagle seal" at 45�!!!!

 >>If you dispute the seal how do you explain the visibility of the
 >>large heading also made visible in the top right of the message
 >>paper and revealed by the self same mechanism I believe, as the
 >>seal?. I'm not the only researcher to attest to this feature.
 >
 >What "self same mechanism"???? Do you have machines or
 >mechanisms that think for you now? It's your imagination that
 >sees an eagle seal at a 45� angle that is impossible because
 >that would put the seal in the air floating above the surface of
 >the paper. The paper is at too steep an angle at 15� in the
 >top-left corner to be able to see any such "seal" if it really
 >was on the surface of the paper. I've given actual numbers for
 >this (above), not mere subjective opinion.

 >>Brad, I did what I believe was the scientific thing to do here,
 >>I took my theory, produced a real world model from it and
 >>attempted to reproduce with that model the observed effects

 >You didn't even give elementary scientific basics such as the
 >size of the seal and the size of the paper you used. You forced
 >me to have to waste time guessing - and possibly later having to
 >re-do calculations if and when you give me real numbers - when
 >you could just produce the figures.

 >>within the image. Considering sizes etc had to be largely
 >>assumed I believe the resultant images from that simple
 >>experiment provide positive support for the theory they were
 >>based on. Try it yourself, all you need is a piece of paper, a
 >>marker pen and a reasonable copy of the Ramey Message pic so you
 >>can simulate (roughly) the way the message paper is curved and
 >>folded, then hold it at arms length in the same orientation as
 >>in the Ramey image, use one eye to simulate the camera lens.

 >>>If when he can be checked quantitatively he
 >>>is so far off how can we then trust him on something that is so
 >>>subjective and non-quantitative as imagining "symbols" and
 >>>"Egyptian hieroglyphics" in amorphous images at the limits of
 >>>resolution of the photos of the Roswell debris?

 >>Hell's bell's _don't_ just trust me!... that's the last thing I
 >>want. I report what _I_ see, go and look at these things for
 >>yourselves and then you can reach your own conclusions for or
 >>against. What I _do_ want people to do is to take a bit of time
 >>to look and then think hard about the origin of the anomalies,
 >>many of which are_not_ at the limits of image resolution.

 >Rohrschach ink blots are reproducible and visible to people,
 >too, but the dragon and butterfly images are still imaginary,
 >even though people can "see it for themselves."

 >Let me recap here: You've made a serious mistake about the
 >orientation of the paper in the top-left corner of the Ramey
 >message. It is a physical impossibility for an "eagle seal" at a
 >45� angle, as you've overlaid it over the Ramey message image,
 >to be on the surface of the paper, which is much flatter at a
 >15� angle, as it would float above the paper by nearly 1 inch.
 >You have the equivalent of a pelican outflying a civil aircraft.


Brad, you may be interested in the plot to be found at:

http://www.thefortworthphotographs.freeserve.co.uk/images/section.gif

This demonstrates my objections to treating the Ramey message
paper as a predominantly flat sheet.

The diagram shown represents a cross section through a paper
sheet having a surface rippled and curved. For simplicity the
cross section plot was created with a series of regular curves
of fixed radius.

Before I go any further let me make it clear this image should
_not_ be taken as anything more than an illustrative model.
It's _not_ to be taken as a direct representation of the ramey
message paper, it's cross section is still unknown.

The marker bars placed along the plot are all drawn
perpendicular to the surface at their placement points along the
section. As can be seen they vary about the 0 vertical expected
of a flat sheet, dependent on the slope of the curve at each of
their locations. The black upper values record the surface angle
variance found, a 0 value indicates that at that point the
surface is parallel with the reference plane, the bottom line
indicating the 15 degree angle.

If we now simulate viewing the surface of this model from your
15 degree point we need to add in this additional angle (rotate
the model anti clockwise) and so end up with the bottom set of
figures in grey.

As you can see from these figures and from this very simple
model, viewing from your 15 degree angle some areas of this
surface are actually presented to the viewer at an angle of up
to 45 degrees, and even small "ripples" can produce areas on
it's surface presented to the "15 degree viewer" at an effective
viewing angle of around 30 degrees, yet the approximate overall
viewing angle remains 15.

The angles indicated were measured from the full scale cross
section model drawing.



Neil









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   Aug > Aug 16

                    Re: New UFO-Flap In Turkey? - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 16:22:51 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 08:00:59 -0400
Subject: Re: New UFO-Flap In Turkey? - Ledger


 >Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 16:26:36 -0400
 >From: Joachim Koch <AchimKoch@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: New UFO-Flap In Turkey?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >Hi List,

 >I've just heard it on the radio and it was on page one of the
 >Turkish newspaper "Hurriyet" on Aug. 8th:

 >Two Turkish Air Force bomber pilots, Ilker Dincer and Arda
 >Gunyer, in their T-37 reported to the tower that they suddenly
 >saw a glowing disk-like UFO over the province of Izmir. It was
 >traveling with fast speed and they followed it. They were able
 >to lock on and had kind of a dog fight for some moments, then
 >the UFO buzzed out of sight.

 >"Hurriyet" spent page number one for this report and printed
 >much of the conversation between the two pilots and the tower:
 >"the object comes close to the wings... it is behind us... now
 >it is in front of us...it is like a dogfight..."

 >At the same time nothing was to be seen on the radar screens.
 >Some international news agencies such as AFP have picked up the
 >news.

 >Since June this year there were some reports of unusual air
 >traffic and it is said that in one case it was videotaped.

 >12 years ago Belgium - now Turkey...?

 >Another reminder...?

 >Best wishes

 >Joachim Koch, Berlin

Hi Joachim,

I've been watching this thread for a couple of days. I note that
the Cessna T-37 is being called a bomber which it might be in
the Turkish AF. Usually it's a trainer - or was. Dubbed the
Tweet or Tweety Bird by the USAF it's sports two seats, side by
side so if the two Turkish jets intercepted or chased this UFO
there were likely four witnesses to the event. It's top speed is
about 360 mph. it can be configured with a couple of 250 pound
bombs.

See: http://www.af.mil/news/factsheets/T_37_Tweet.html

best,

Don








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   Aug > Aug 16

                Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
Date: 15 Aug 2001 12:26:59 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 08:07:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure
 >Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 18:55:54 -0700

 >>Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 07:48:35 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>>Date: 13 Aug 2001 14:06:22 -0700
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Day 16

<snip>

 >Tell me does Dr. Greer support this? has he heard about it? how
 >about it Mr. Cameron?

Dr. Greer is aware of this. Lara is very good at keeping the
lines of communication open.

Some indirect contact has taken place with people who have been
associated with the Disclosure Project. Whether this has Dr.
Greer's direction I do not know.

There has been no direct contact between the two, and according
to Lara it may be better if there isn't. Her concern is the
honesty of George Bush. UFOs is only a small part of the overall
secrecy she objects to.


Hope this helps,

Grant









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   Aug > Aug 16

                Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
Date: 15 Aug 2001 13:39:20 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 08:10:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -


 >Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 07:48:35 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: 13 Aug 2001 14:06:22 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Day 16

 >>Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Day 16

 >Hello All,

 >Due to a death in my family I have been away from the List for
 >several weeks. Like Michael Corleone, no matter how hard I try
 >to stay away, "they drag me back in!"  ;) I am writing because
 >this is one I cannot allow to pass without comment.

 >Lara seems like a sincere person of strong conviction. Abductees
 >are sending her letters of support and she is being "encouraged"
 >in her hunger strike by folks from all points on the compass. As
 >strongly as I believe in UFO disclosure I cannot (in good
 >conscience) support anything that will put someone's health or
 >Life in danger.

 >Although this grandstand hunger strike may help to attract some
 >attention to the subject, at what price? Do any of the people
 >who are egging her on with letters of support care about this
 >person's well being? Has anyone tried to counsel her about the
 >foolishness of risking her health for something that can be
 >accomplished without risk to human life? Has everybody gone
 >completely bonkers while I was away?

 >Again, I am in complete agreement with her "cause." It is her
 >"methods" I am questioning. Reality Check: George Bush Jr. is
 >busy playing golf. He is -not,- repeat, NOT) going to respond
 >directly to this sacrificial (albeit noble) effort from Lara.

John

It appears you are having a great deal of problem dealing with
Lara's decision based on 'Methods'.

Lara has chosen to support the Disclosure Witnesses she saw on
the Disclosure tape at the July 22nd event in San Fran., in the
way that she deems most effective.

If you have a proven method to achieve Lara's goal of Disclosure
on the UFO issue by Geoerge Bush, let me know. I will pass it on
to Lara and I am sure she will consider shutting down her
protest immediately.

I know Lara fairly well, and the last word that I would use in
connection with her or any of her actions is "bonkers."

Better yet relate anything that you think will help her achieve
goal to her directly: bravehrt@concentric.net

Talking to her through an E-mail list is not the best way to
relate your concern.

Lara always keeps open the lines of communication, and I am sure
would appreciate hearing from you about your plans and your
concern for her well-being.

Grant




"Are you ready for the revolution?"
Lara Johnstone, a California woman who began a Hunger Strike for
Disclosure on July 28th.
Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping!
http://www.shopping.altavista.com






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   Aug > Aug 16

                      Re: Turkish Pilots & UFO - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 14:29:43 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 08:14:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Turkish Pilots & UFO - McCoy



 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: Hakan Konac" <konac@ada.net.tr>
 >Subject: Turkish Pilots & UFO
 >Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 09:31:23 GMT

 >Enjoy the below info.

 >Hakan

 >---

 >Name of Turkish Air Force Pilot: Second Lieutenant Ilker Dincer
 >Name of Second Turkish Air Force Pilot: n.a.
 >Type of the aircraft: T-37 Training Jet (122nd Squadron)
 >Date: 6 August 2001
 >Time: 12:30 hours Turkish time
 >Place: Izmir, Candarli, Turkey
 >Duration of Encounter: 30 minutes

 >Dincer: "We are facing an unusual situation. We see an object
 >         shaped like a cross between a cone and a disc, with
 >         support legs, extremely luminous and high speed".

Good Report, notice the detail. A trained, observant eye.

 >Dincer reports the incident both to the Ground Control and to the
 >Combat Operations Center (COC) and asks for radar confirmation.
 >
 >COC:    "Negative. We detect a high rate of maneuvering in your
 >         aircraft but no detection of a second object around."

 >Dincer moves the T-37 closer towards the object and according to
 >Dincer, the object also moves closer towards the T-37.



A Cessna T-37 is a primary jet trainer, known to the USAF as a
"Tweet" it has two small (J-85's, I believe) pure jet engines
which also give it the nickname: "Ten thousand pound dog
whistle." this one might be a "Squadron hack"- used for
proficentcy and business.

 >Dincer: "The object is now coming closer to my wings, now it�s
 >         behind us, I�ll get it in front of myself, now it�s in
 >         front of us, hey this is certainly going for a dog fight
 >         with us".

I wonder if we had a bored scout ship crew, a picking on a Tweet
is like picking on a business jet. The Tweet is a little better
(not much) built than say a Cessna Citation and is not a real
dogfighter. As I said, its main function is to introduce a Pilot
to jet flight, not tactics per se.

 >The object gyrated around the T-37 for about a half hour. The
 >object and the T-37 maneuvered around each other during the
 >encounter until the object disappeared at an incredibly high
 >speed.

Since if the radar indicated that the Tweet was being trown all
over the sky,-not something normally done in one, one thing it
has a nasty stall/spin charateristic (this is from an old AF
instructor I knew.) something to be avoided, however hard to
avoid if you are trying to run away from something that wants to
have it's way with you.

 >The incident is under investigation by the Turkish Air Force and
 >there is a great deal of concern and shock among the Air Force
 >officials.

 >The incident will be reported to the relevant international
 >institutions, especially NASA.

Well, if this is legit (and I think it might be) we may have
something here, since it will be easy to check out the pilot's
veracity.


GT McCoy












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   Aug > Aug 16

             Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 17:29:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 08:33:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure - Velez


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure
 >Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 07:30:40 -0500

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure
 >>Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 20:55:59 +0000

 >>>Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 07:48:35 -0400
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure

 >>>>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>>>Date: 13 Aug 2001 14:06:22 -0700
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>>Subject: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure - Day 16

 >>>>Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Day 16

 >>>Hello All,

 >>>Due to a death in my family I have been away from the List for
 >>>several weeks. Like Michael Corleone, no matter how hard I try
 >>>to stay away, "they drag me back in!" ;) I am writing because
 >>>this is one I cannot allow to pass without comment.

 ><snip>

 >>>What will most likely happen if Lara persists is that her body
 >>>and health will begin to deteriorate (dangerously) at some
 >>>point, and unless she is in tip-top physical condition, she will
 >>>suffer/pay the consequences.

 >>>Instead of "encouraging" her we should all be pleading with her
 >>>to put an end to this folly before harmful or irreversible
 >>>effects from her hunger strike are visited upon her person.

 >>>Lara: Please, reconsider this (personally) dangerous course of
 >>>action you have taken. I am ready and willing to support you in
 >>>any way in order to get the presidents attention. But as I have
 >>>already stated, I cannot in good conscience support anything
 >>>that is going to endanger your life or your continued well
 >>>being.

 >>>As for the rest of her alleged "supporters": If anything bad
 >>>happens to Lara because of your encouragement, may it burn a
 >>>hole in your thoughtless (for Lara) heads for the rest of your
 >>>natural lives.

 >>John,

 >>Condolences on your loss. I, for one, am very glad to have the
 >>return of your "voice of sanity".

 >>Non-bonkers in Brentwood,

 >>Dick

Hi Alfred,

You wrote:

 >In the first place, Mr. Hall, to the ubiquitous mainstream
 >you're a capering mad-man, an aging beatnik, and a left leaning
 >question-asker (pinko-radical) likely just to the good side of
 >the 'Unabomber'. Your "non-bonkers in Brentwood" is taken,
 >therefore, with the endless flats at Bonneville... <g>.

Geez, you're in 'rare form' Alfred. I hope you're taking full
advantage of this visitation from your Muses and writing a few
odes as well.  ;)

 >Mr. Velez, on the other hand, has been abducted by aliens, and
 >so he is removed from the equational question, out of hand. I
 >mean, even a display of _reasonable_ compassion is suspect from
 >one of _those_ people. I've got it on good authority that John
 >has licked the dry lake bed at Area 51, so he's got enough salt
 >for everybody. <g>.

 >Neither of you would be able to hold down a teaching job, for
 >sure. <no little grinny things>

 >As regards our striker. In the first place we are talking about
 >a grown woman here that has rationally demonstrated some
 >egalitarian sense and rational seriousness in the past, a
 >cursory look seems to show. Allusions to "bonkers" might be a
 >little premature, needlessly distracting, and an otherwise
 >inaccurate splash of well meaning, but point-missing, paint...

Misinterpretation Al. I was referring to those who were egging
her on not to Lara. My first remark about her was that she
"seemed to be" a sincere person. I am also not questioning her
'cause'. It is her 'methods' that I think are a bit extreme. See
next response.

 >An intelligent fast is actually a healthy thing, to a point;
 >John likely knows that. There is no _mal_ nutrition in a healthy
 >fast, there is only an 'under' nutrition that most people in the
 >western hemisphere could have a couple of helpings of anyway...
 >I've got a whole paper in the spring-loaded, ready to go
 >position, so we can dicker that point if you want to.

No "dickering" at all. And yes, having studied and practiced
contemplative as well as certain physical forms of Yoga (all of
my adult life) I am familiar with, and have performed many
healthy, cleansing fasts. Many of which are intended to last for
only three to five days. Juice Fasts can go as long as a month
without jeopardizing health. The point I was trying to make was
that this fast that Lara is engaged in (due to its political
nature) has no preset terminus. She intends to persist until
George Dubya responds.

Between you, me, and the wall, that just ain't gonna happen.

So, what are we looking at? An extended fast that can only have
deleterious effects (even on someone who fasts regularly) if it
should approach or go beyond the thirty day range and a dolt of
a President whose concern for humanity is second only to
Goering. (Refer to Dubya's responses when asked about reprieves
for death row inmates during his terms as Governer of Texas.
This guy is no humanitarian!)

All that his tiny brain is capable of handling is keeping track
of his golf scores as he makes the rounds of his favorite
courses. (And I'll bet the farm that his caddy handles all the
complicated math for him!) Lara and anybody else who thinks Bush
is going to respond to a Hunger Strike For UFO Disclosure is
simply deluding themselves big-time. This fast of hers could go
much, much longer than her 'supporters' suspect.

Ergo, my concern for Lara's health and continued well-being.

 >The human body evolved on the savanna where a fast was a
 >continuing aspect of reality.

I'm sure that Lara like many other Americans is used to eating
regularly and fairly well. The beast you speak of may have
existed in bygone eras, and currently in many third world
countries but, America is the Fat-ass Capitol of the world. I
doubt that many second and third generation yankees have
inherited the kind of wiry - used to long periods of hunger -
body/genes that you reference here.

An extended fast of the kind that Lara has undertaken can only
begin to debilitate her and effect her overall health at some
point. Every principle that I was taught about fasting goes
against prolonged (more than thirty days) fasting. I was merely
stating that I cannot in good conscience support something that
is potentially harmful to another. I never said she didn't have
a right to do it, and I didn't question that right. Nor was I
calling _her_ bonkers. That was meant for the crowd gathered
under the parapet she is standing on yelling, "Jump, jump!"

Warm regards,

John Velez








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   Aug > Aug 16

                Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 17:57:11 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 08:40:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure -


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure
 >Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 18:55:54 -0700

 >>Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 07:48:35 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure

 >>>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>>Date: 13 Aug 2001 14:06:22 -0700
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure - Day 16

 >>>Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Day 16

 >>Hello All,

 >>Due to a death in my family I have been away from the List for
 >>several weeks. Like Michael Corleone, no matter how hard I try
 >>to stay away, "they drag me back in!" ;) I am writing because
 >>this is one I cannot allow to pass without comment.

 >>Lara seems like a sincere person of strong conviction. Abductees
 >>are sending her letters of support and she is being "encouraged"
 >>in her hunger strike by folks from all points on the compass. As
 >>strongly as I believe in UFO disclosure I cannot (in good
 >>conscience) support anything that will put someone's health or
 >>Life in danger.

 >I Agree John, I wrote a long rant then erased it because I saw
 >that this is not Lara's doing, entirely.

 >What really upset me was the biblical quote of John 15:3, when
 >the subject that Jesus Christ was talking about was giving your
 >life so others may live. Lay on the hand grenade, take the
 >bullet, get nailed to a Cross that sort of thing.

 >When this is not a life or death matter, why damage yourself
 >just to prove a point. It won't do any good anyway.

 >>Although this grandstand hunger strike may help to attract some
 >>attention to the subject, at what price? Do any of the people
 >>who are egging her on with letters of support care about this
 >>person's well being? Has anyone tried to counsel her about the
 >>foolishness of risking her health for something that can be
 >>accomplished without risk to human life? Has everybody gone
 >>completely bonkers while I was away?

 >>Again, I am in complete agreement with her "cause." It is her
 >>"methods" I am questioning. Reality Check: George Bush Jr. is
 >>busy playing golf. He is -not,- repeat, NOT) going to respond
 >>directly to this sacrificial (albeit noble) effort from Lara.

 >Not only Bush but every other politican that has never heard of
 >any UFO activist. Every President from Truman on down has gotten
 >tons of mail of all types. Is Bush any different, form letters
 >and all?

 >>What will most likely happen if Lara persists is that her body
 >>and health will begin to deteriorate (dangerously) at some
 >>point, and unless she is in tip-top physical condition, she will
 >>suffer/pay the consequences.

 >She seems to be in the habit of that, if her previous hunger
 >strike is any indication.

 >>Instead of "encouraging" her we should all be pleading with her
 >>to put an end to this folly before harmful or irreversible
 >>effects from her hunger strike are visited upon her person.

 >Having known a survivor of the Battaan Death March, starvation's
 >effects stayed with him until the day he died, (at a realtively
 >young age of 59)

 >>Lara: Please, reconsider this (personally) dangerous course of
 >>action you have taken. I am ready and willing to support you in
 >>any way in order to get the presidents attention. But as I have
 >>already stated, I cannot in good conscience support anything
 >>that is going to endanger your life or your continued well
 >>being.

 >Listen to John, Lara.

 >>As for the rest of her alleged "supporters": If anything bad
 >>happens to Lara because of your encouragement, may it burn a
 >>hole in your thoughtless (for Lara) heads for the rest of your
 >>natural lives.

 >Yes, I Agree with this too.

 >Tell me does Dr. Greer support this? has he heard about it? how
 >about it Mr. Cameron?

Gentlemen, All, Errol;

I am a tad surprised at some of the response I've seen posted
here relative to Lara's hunger strike. To wit, this is a grown
up lady who is making a statement which I presume she feels
sufficiently strong about, to undertake making it.

Further, this grown up lady is not exactly going hungry. She is,
for the reports I've read, doing the right thing by herself.
Taking the proper nutrition, electrolytes and juices with which
to not merely sustain but further, to keep her strength up. A
hunger strike is not a pleasant thing to undertake. Neither is
it usually a life threatening event. In fact, it can be
beneficial to both body and spirit. It can be dangerous as well,
but that's where the statement is being made.

By a mature lady, with a passion for what she considers
important, in the face of the President's golf game and in the
face of our two cents worth of "Oh please, don't do this little
girl, you might get hurt."

No, this is no little girl in need of our employment to "don't
hurt yourself." She is too smart for that.

My words are, if she's listening (make that reading), "Knock 'em
dead girl!" I should do the same but I am alas, way to Morte de
Fam myself.


Morty








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   Aug > Aug 16

                 Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 18:19:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 08:44:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Maccabee


 >From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 17:51:09 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com


 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Date: 14 Aug 2001 07:21:45 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'

<snip>

 >Now about the testimony of Sheridan Cavitt. In my lost post, I
 >made extensive quotes of Cavitt, and I am not going to do it
 >again. In a nutshell, Cavitt repeated all the time, in the 30
 >pages interview of Colonel Weaver, that he had found a simple,
 >uninteresting weather balloon, or a "radio sonde". The debris
 >was small, "maybe as long as this room wide". He did not see any
 >tape decorated with flowers, etc. If he had recovered a huge
 >balloon train, twenty balloons or more, attached to a strong
 >nylon line, with radar reflectors and various intruments, he
 >should have at least vaguely remembered that, but he didn't.

 >So, as Bob Durant puts it very well, it is no big surprise that
 >this is not quoted in the book. It is so damaging to the Mogul
 >theory!  It is a serious flaw of the book. On the contrary, it
 >does not harm the ufo theory because, as you admit yourself,
 >Cavitt is lying all the time. He had no need to do that if he
 >had found a Mogul balloon train, but he needed to if he had
 >found a ufo.

I point out again that a detailed analysis of Cavitt's interview
is at:

http://brumac.8k.com

There I have argued that either Cavitt had somehow mixed up the
Roswell retrieval with some other event or else he was flat out
lying.

I believe he was lying.








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   Aug > Aug 16

                          Secrecy News -- 08/15/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@igc.org>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 13:30:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 08:46:15 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/15/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
August 15, 2001

**BELLOWS REPORT FAULTS DOE, FBI
**"IT'S NOT AN OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT"


BELLOWS REPORT FAULTS DOE, FBI

The Justice Department on Monday released two heavily censored
chapters of the so-called "Bellows Report" on the investigation
of alleged Chinese nuclear espionage at Los Alamos National
Laboratory that purported to identify Wen Ho Lee as a suspected
spy.

The report, authored by federal prosecutor Randy Bellows and
submitted to Attorney General Reno in May 2000, is a case study
in how not to conduct a counterintelligence investigation.

It describes, step by step, how initial indications of possible
Chinese espionage led to a misdirected spy hunt that wasted
"years investigating the wrong crime" (page 236).

The report found that DOE officials set things off on the wrong
foot by mischaracterizing the alleged compromise of nuclear
information, and then the FBI made them worse.

"To say that DOE misled the FBI as to the predicate, and to say
that DOE improperly focused its conclusion only on Wen Ho Lee,
is only to describe half the problem. The other half was the
FBI's unfortunate and unwarranted acceptance of DOE's
description of the predicate, and its unhesitating and
unquestioning acceptance of DOE's identification of Lee as 'the
most logical suspect'." (page 380)

"It is not that Wen Ho Lee should not have been *a* suspect. It
was that Wen Ho Lee should not have been the *only* suspect.
After all, the case against Wen Ho Lee could hardly be termed
overwhelming" (page 376).

The Bellows report, which is generally scrupulous in its
assessments, seems weak in its discussion of allegations of
racial bias against Lee (pp. 381-88). Bellows does not appear to
have interviewed those who have made such allegations,
responding instead to second-hand reports in the press. If the
accusers had any evidence to support their claims, Bellows
apparently did not obtain it.

The scope of Bellows' inquiry is limited to the early
investigative phase of the Lee case, ending in March 1999, when
Wen Ho Lee was fired from Los Alamos. It does not encompass the
decision to prosecute him nine months later, the manner of his
confinement, or the government's conduct of his prosecution --
all matters of continuing controversy.

The full (declassified) text of Chapter 7 of the Bellows Report
is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/ops/ci/bellows_chap7.html

Excerpts from Chapter 6, which was censored to the point that
portions of the remaining text are unintelligible, are posted
here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/ops/ci/bellows_chap6.html


"IT'S NOT AN OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT"

One estimable reader objected to Secrecy News' (8/10/01) use of
the term "official secrets act" to refer to the proposed
legislation to criminalize unauthorized disclosures of
classified information. Such legislation was vetoed last year by
President Clinton and is again under consideration by the Senate
Select Committee on Intelligence.

"The reference to an 'Official Secrets Act' clearly alludes to
the long-time UK law that, in part, makes it a crime for anyone,
including a journalist, to publish classified information," the
reader wrote.

In contrast, he noted, "The legislation that President Clinton
vetoed last year clearly could not be used to prosecute the
uncleared receiver of classified information (such as a
journalist). The legislation only targeted the cleared holder of
classified information who, without authority, deliberately
discloses such information to someone who is not authorized to
have access to it. Even then, the legislation and other
provisions of law provide safeguards and mechanisms for
whistleblowers when it is believed that the information reveals
violations of law, waste, fraud or abuse."

"Prosecuting someone who deliberately violates his/her agreed
upon trust to safeguard classified information is a far cry from
prosecuting journalists," the reader argued sensibly.

"Finally, we cannot legitimately purport to support the broadest
possible implementation of declassification if we are unwilling
to support the safeguarding of information that is still
classified under existing provisions of law," he wrote.

But classified information can be, and long has been,
effectively safeguarded without making any and all leaks a
felony.

The "anti-leak" legislation was defeated last year not because
of opposition to protecting classified information. Rather,
opponents argued successfully that the measure would have a
chilling effect on legitimate interactions between government
officials and members of the public; that it would hinder
diplomats and press officers in the performance of their duties;
and that the executive branch's classification system should not
be
indiscriminately fortified with a felony statute.

******************************

Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:

Secrecy News is archived at:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691








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   Aug > Aug 16

                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 19:19:51 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 08:48:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Sparks


 >Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 10:58:08 +0100
 >From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris


 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:07:59 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>Date: 14 Aug 2001 06:42:06 -0700
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
<snip>

 >>>There is no way the target was strewn out over 3/4 mile on the
 >>>Foster Ranch.

 >>Well, it would depend upon how thinly spread out it was, or if
 >>it was in pieces.

Neil, Bob, Bill, List,

See my post on this at:

http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/2001/aug/m15-015.shtml

Where I say the following:

 >No witness to the debris field ever
 >specified - or could ever be reliable enough to specify - the
 >density of debris fragments constituting this field, especially
 >from memory 30-50 years later. ...

 >Bessie Brazel ... said the debris was
 >"scattered sparsely" and that the wind might have blown it
 >farther than that. (Pflock p. 277) ...

 >The main reason this is ridiculous is because of the human
 >tendency to simplify complex situations. If one or two foil
 >pieces were found 1,000 feet away or 4,000 feet away does that
 >make the _entire_ debris field 1,000 or 4,000 feet in size? How
 >many pieces does it take to make a "debris field"...? What if
 >the wind blew a few pieces 1,000 feet or more right while you're
 >standing there trying to make sense of the more immediate
 >collection of dozens or hundreds of pieces closer at hand. Does
 >that mean the debris field is considered 1,000+ feet in size or
 >what???? Didn't Brazel collect some of the debris and stash it
 >till he came back with Marcel, and if so, how does that removal
 >affect the area of the debris field after he returned? Can you
 >tell me whether your answer today in 2001 would even apply or be
 >understood by _any_ of the witnesses back in 1947 on site trying
 >to make sense of it???

 >Every person might have a different notion of what constitutes a
 >"debris field" and some might not even think of articulating or
 >formulating such a concept in the first place - why should
 >they? Are ranchers supposed to be aircraft accident
 >investigators??? Was Marcel even an accident investigator?
 >You're pushing far beyond the resaonable limits of witness
 >perception and comprehension here. Some witnesses might think
 >the only thing relevant is what was at their feet, maybe a few
 >dozen yards across. Some might think it's the densest collection
 >that they can see, ignoring all the rest that are scattered as
 >being deemed insignificant. Some might ignore the sun-browned
 >rubber fragments from the 23 balloons in the Mogul Flight 4
 >array because they'd blend in more with the brown background and
 >be harder to spot than the eye-catching, sun-glinting shiny foil
 >pieces. Some might have tried to be more careful and consider
 >all of the unusual material they saw. Some might have
 >misunderstood the questions put to them or the questions might
 >have been narrower or broader than they realized. Some might not
 >be very good at estimating distances. Some might simply not have
 >walked as far around as others.


 >Jesse Marcel's site description works out at aprox 777,500 sqft
 >That dubious interview with Mack Brazel in the RDR of the 9th
 >July quotes Mack as saying the site was 200 yards across that's
 >aprox 282,700 sqft.

How can you have 4 digits of precision on these numbers? There's
no justification for it. It may look "good" for fooling
laypeople into thinking they're "scientific" but they're
meaningless. The areas should be rounded off to the same 1-digit
precision of the size estimates given, i.e., rounded off to
about 800,000 sq.ft. and 300,000 sq.ft. respectively.

 >_If_ Charles Moore's MOGUL _did_ have 3
 >ML307 reflectors and _if_ it did crash on the Foster Ranch it
 >would only have

 >_54_ sq ft of foil. (90 sq ft if it had 5 ML307's attached)

What about the rubber balloon material?


 >To cover the above two site descriptions with 34 sqft of foil
 >that's

 >0.0275 sq INCHES per sq ft for Mack's size

 >and

 >0.01 sq INCHES per sq ft for Jesse Marcel's size of debris field

 >And that is a _mighty_ thin spread _just_ to provide a uniform
 >background cover.

 >To provide a _noticable_ say 10% coverage of the above 2 areas
 >you would need aprox one tenth of each of the area's ie over
 >70,000 and 28,000 square _feet_ of foil in each case.

Where do you _get_ these incredibly convenient numbers such as
"10% coverage"??? This is called bootstrapping. Apply a
"reasonable" number to something that you have no idea about,
that may be all or nothing and isn't statistical and like magic
you can bootstrap anything into existence.

And again, you ignore the rubber balloon material.

 >And _all_ that from the _one_ Flight 4 MOGUL launch which only
 >had at the very most 90sqft of foil and possibly _didn't_ have
 >any foil ML307's at all???.

 >But even if it did have ML307's the numbers don't really add up
 >do they?

They do add up. If a shiny fragment of debris was spotted from a
distance, or by walking over to it, then the "debris field"
could be enormous. An aircraft accident investigation today
wouldn't exclude a fragment just because it was too far away or
more isolated than other fragments.

A set of three Mogul kite-like radar reflectors of about 50
sq.ft. total area could be divided up into one-foot sized pieces
and dispersed all over a 300- or 600-foot debris field. Suppose
one-foot was an average dimension of a fragment, ordinarily we
might say that would be 50 fragments but that's simplistic as
smaller pieces overwhelm the number distributions. Half the
fragments would be smaller, half larger. Of the half consisting
of the smaller pieces, half of that half (a quarter of the total
area) would be the smallest. I recall 3 inches as the size given
for a smaller piece (or 16 to one square foot), so suppose at
the low end of the size distribution half of half, or about 12
sq.ft., are divided into fragments of that size, and the other
half of half are say 6 inches in size (4 to a sq.ft.). That
would yield 192 small pieces plus 48 of the larger six-inch
pieces plus 12 one-foot pieces plus say 3 two-foot pieces,
there's two square feet left over in this approximation so if
they contribute to each category in the same proportions then we
get a total of about 266 fragments, which we can round off to
300 (pieces smaller than three inches could easily inflate the
numbers). That's a reasonable estimate of fragment size
distribution, at least as a start. So approximately 50 square
feet of foil reflector material could have broken up into
something like 300 fragments of a spectrum of sizes ranging from
perhaps 3 inches to 2 feet.

Bessie Brazel described a "football field" size debris field of
double-sided foil-rubber fragments. If the 300 fragments were
scattered across this approximately 70,000 sq.ft. area then each
fragment might on the average be about 15 feet apart - though
some might be bunched together and others more sparsely
separated. That certainly seems plausible.

A whole football field covered with eye-catching sun-flashing
foil-composite pieces, just from 50 square feet of material.

A few pieces could be blown out thousands of feet, extending the
size of the area for those who cared to walk over, or who could
spot a shiny piece flashing in the distance.

Do you have any witness testimony giving an average separation
distance for the fragments in the debris field that would
conflict with this estimate? I don't know of any witness who
ever gave such a separation distance figure.


Brad









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   Aug > Aug 16

                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 22:12:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 08:52:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Stacy


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:13:39 -0300

<snip>

 >As noted in the last portion of the RDR [Roswell Daily Record]
 >article for July 9 (which is the basis for all the Mogul balloon
 >nonsense), Brazel was sure it wasn't a weather balloon.

 >He had found them before.


Stan,

Think about what you're saying here.

Are you suggesting that single weather balloons were raining
down on the Foster ranch to the extent that Brazel had come
across several others before encountering whatever it was that
he took into Roswell? That he was _familiar_ with same?

Gadzooks, man, what is the likelihood of _that_?

But, if true, doesn't this suggest that the Foster ranch was in
the "flight path" of balloon operations? Or was Brazel just
lucky enough to have stumbled across one or two prior to his
third encounter?

You can't have it both ways, no doubt as much as you would like
to.

And speaking of having it both ways... have you encountered any
recent news or revelations that might lead you to reconsider
Gerald Anderson's veracity re claims to having been a SEAL?

If so, might we expect to see news of same on your new web
site?

Curious minds would like to know.


Dennis Stacy









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                        Re: Ramey's Debris - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 23:20:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 08:55:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Maccabee


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 21:52:59 EDT
 >Subject: Ramey's Debris [was: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell']
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 15:43:36 -0700

<snip>

 >To sum up: The Roswell witnesses describe Mogul-like debris
 >except for foil-cloth, a 2-foot section of a thin slightly
 >curved sheet metal, and a discrepancy in the width of the tape
 >used. The Ramey photos show a clean set of tattered Mogul-like
 >remains lacking any dirty raindrop pockmarks or any dirt at all,
 >as if the material was substituted perhaps to make a 'good show'
 >for the news media, except that no flower designs are visible on
 >the tape. The Roswell witness evidence suggests a Mogul balloon
 >array in the field was mixed with some other debris, either by
 >human agency, deliberately or unintentionally, or as a result of
the anomaly/explosion event.>

Hmmmm..... I've got it!

The flying scaucer became entangled in the Mogul balloon train
and then the outer hull exploded with the curved metal/cloth
pieces dragging the the Mogul balloon train to the ground where
disk and Mogul randomly intermixed. No _wonder_ Marcel was
_confused_ and Cavitt could get away claiming he saw wrekage of
a weather balloon.

Hahahahaha


(The rain in Spain falls mainly in my brain.)
(By George, I think he's got it!)








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                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 23:32:38 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 08:56:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Young


 >Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 10:58:08 +0100
 >From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:07:59 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >>I think that Ed reveals his lack of reliability as a photo
 >>interpreter by not noticing the resemblance. His fascination
 >>with the phony Alien Autopsy film doesn't add much confidence,
 >>either.

 >Ed didn't find the connection, I did. It _is_ curious, but the
 >fact is 4 symbol shapes identified in sequence on the same
 >single beam section from the AA "debris footage" happen to match
 >closely, symbol shapes seen in the Fort Worth Photographs,
 >the number of matches I find more than just coincidence.

Well, if one was going to fake the AA film, and was interested
enough in details to include something which looked like the
long- published picture from Fort Worth, then maybe thay were
careful enough to include details.

<snip>

 >Jesse Marcel's site description works out at aprox 777,500 sqft

I wonder how Marcel got 777,500 square feet of anything in the
trunk of his little old car?

 >That dubious interview with Mack Brazel in the RDR of the 9th
 >July quotes Mack as saying the site was 200 yards across that's
 >aprox 282,700 sqft. _If_ Charles Moore's MOGUL _did_ have 3
 >ML307 reflectors and _if_ it did crash on the Foster Ranch it
 >would only have

 >_54_ sq ft of foil. (90 sq ft if it had 5 ML307's attached)

 >To cover the above two site descriptions with 34 sqft of foil
 >that's

 >0.0275 sq INCHES per sq ft for Mack's size

 >and

 >0.01 sq INCHES per sq ft for Jesse Marcel's size of debris field

 >And that is a _mighty_ thin spread _just_ to provide a uniform
 >background cover.

 >To provide a _noticable_ say 10% coverage of the above 2 areas
 >you would need aprox one tenth of each of the area's ie over
 >70,000 and 28,000 square _feet_  of foil in each case.

What makes 10% coverage necessary to notice some shiny debris
laying out on the desert?  There is a mighty big assumption
being made here.

Did Brazel ever say that the area was covered to this density?

 >But even if it did have ML307's the numbers don't really add up
 >do they?

No, they don't and they sure don't add up to what was collected,
according to the witnesses and the only known pictures. I
suggest that these huge numbers are strictly in the imaginations
of believers who are building castles in the air.


Clear skies,

Bob Young








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   Aug > Aug 16

                Roswell Debris Field [was: Review of Pflock's

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 16 Aug 2001 06:10:44 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 09:18:36 -0400
Subject: Roswell Debris Field [was: Review of Pflock's


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 06:22:55 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Date: 14 Aug 2001 07:21:45 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'

 >>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:18:16 -0700

 >>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 09:48:29 EDT
 >>>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>><snip>

 >>>>Despite Pflock quoting literally pages of witness testimony to
 >>>>unusual material properties in the Roswell debris throughout his
 >>>>book and repeatedly reciting it to the point of redundancy (AP
 >>>>reporter Kellahin's description of the material is quoted twice
 >>>>on the same page, p. 153), and presenting an extremely valuable
 >>>>collection of 50 pages of witness interview transcripts and
 >>>>affidavits,

 >>>I just purchased Pflock's "Roswell' yesterday and expected a
 >>>$26, typical debunking hack-job but was surprised to find an
 >>>interesting, fact-filled, hack-job instead.

 >>I think you hit the nail on the head here, Ed.

 >>>And while you're correct that Karl has made an important
 >>>contribution to Roswell research, his conclusions are dead wrong
 >>>and dumb. (find an identifiable piece of the mogul on the floor
 >>>of Gen. Ramey's office) This it is not the fault of the
 >>>information that Pflock has gathered together, but his own spin
 >>>on the details.

 >>Agreed. Marcel's large field-size estimate is a vital factor as
 >>well as descriptions of the material found by those who handled
 >>it and that does not logically lead to Pflock's conclusion.

 >>The field-size was estimated to be about 4,000 ft long (3/4
 >>mile) by about 250 feet wide. That is about 1,000,000 square
 >>feet.

 >>Assuming that to be a maximum and assuming the debris field to
 >>be uneven in shape, we can still estimate that the ground was
 >>covered by about 6,000 square feet of material.

 >>Assuming half this size and about 3,000 square feet of thin
 >>metallic material (no identifiable remnants of neoprene balloons
 >>seemed to have been mentioned), then how do we reconcile this
 >>with Rawin targets which had a total of 54 square feet of
 >>surface area. Lets see now - that would be around 55 Rawin
 >>targets.

 >>Hmmm... new theory.

 >>Someone disposed of old Rawin targets on the Foster Ranch and
 >>paid him a fee for it. No balloons needed. How is that for
 >>imaginative skepticism?

 >You know better than this. No witness to the debris field ever
 >specified - or could ever be reliable enough to specify - the
 >density of debris fragments constituting this field, especially
 >from memory 30-50 years later. I notice you don't mention
 >Brazel's contemporaneous July 8, 1947, estimate of the size of
 >the debris field of _rubber_ as about "two hundred yards" (600
 >feet) - almost exactly the size of a 657-foot Mogul balloon
 >train of 23 rubber balloons. (Roswell Daily Record, July 9,
 >1947) Nor do you mention Bessie Brazel's 300-foot estimate
 >("about the size of a football field"). She said the debris was
 >"scattered sparsely" and that the wind might have blown it
 >farther than that. (Pflock p. 277) Can you translate "sparsely"
 >into a material density such as square inches of material per
 >square yard of ground? I can't.

Marcel's estimate was 3/4 of a mile by about 250 ft wide. It is
true the estimates will vary among witnesses.

Mac Brazel: The debris field was 3/4 of a mile long and 300 feet
wide. It was oriented in a northwest to southeast direction.
There was a gouge in the northwest side of the debris field that
was 500 feet long and 10 feet wide. The debris on the field
mostly consisted of I-beams and parchment like, paper thin
pieces of metal material. The material was very light in weight,
a dull gray in color, and most pieces were 6 to 7 inches in
length. Some pieces that were even thinner than paper could not
be broken in half, cut or burnt. Mac Brazel collected several
pieces of the debris and went back to his ranch. So we have
varying statements, the I-beams and thin pieces of metal vs
rubber. If there was burnt neoprene balloon material, then why
didn't Marcel easily identify it as a balloon? If the debris was
strewn by a balloon, what made the gouge?

 >The main reason this is ridiculous is because of the human
 >tendency to simplify complex situations. If one or two foil
 >pieces were found 1,000 feet away or 4,000 feet away does that
 >make the _entire_ debris field 1,000 or 4,000 feet in size? How
 >many pieces does it take to make a "debris field" Bill? What if
 >the wind blew a few pieces 1,000 feet or more right while you're
 >standing there trying to make sense of the more immediate
 >collection of dozens or hundreds of pieces closer at hand. Does
 >that mean the debris field is considered 1,000+ feet in size or
 >what???? Didn't Brazel collect some of the debris and stash it
 >till he came back with Marcel, and if so, how does that removal
 >affect the area of the debris field after he returned? Can you
 >tell me whether your answer today in 2001 would even apply or be
 >understood by _any_ of the witnesses back in 1947 on site trying
 >to make sense of it???

It's not ridiculous. It is just an estimate. Even if we estimate
the debris field to be a mere 250 ft long parabolic spread it
would require 10 of the rawin targets. The 250' long parabolic
spread might be around 40,000 sq. ft (a square would be 62,500
sq. ft.) and the laminated targets would comprise 540 sq. ft. of
material so that an estimated density for the targets would be
little more than 1% of the spreaded area. That is sparse
alright, but if the debris field was closer to the larger
estimate, then we would need far more rawins to account for the
6" pieces. Oh, and where are these 6-7" pieces in the photos?

 >Every person might have a different notion of what constitutes a
 >"debris field" and some might not even think of articulating or
 >formulating such a concept in the first place - why should
 >they? Are ranchers supposed to be aircraft accident
 >investigators??? Was Marcel even an accident investigator?
 >You're pushing far beyond the resaonable limits of witness
 >perception and comprehension here. Some witnesses might think
 >the only thing relevant is what was at their feet, maybe a few
 >dozen yards across. Some might think it's the densest collection
 >that they can see, ignoring all the rest that are scattered as
 >being deemed insignificant. Some might ignore the sun-browned
 >rubber fragments from the 23 balloons in the Mogul Flight 4
 >array because they'd blend in more with the brown background and
 >be harder to spot than the eye-catching, sun-glinting shiny foil
 >pieces. Some might have tried to be more careful and consider
 >all of the unusual material they saw. Some might have
 >misunderstood the questions put to them or the questions might
 >have been narrower or broader than they realized. Some might not
 >be very good at estimating distances. Some might simply not have
 >walked as far around as others.

It gets pretty foggy at this point doesn't it? If any of the
testimony about the unusual properties of the metal are correct,
then rawin foil it is not.

 >These simple logical considerations help provide an entirely
 >different explanation for Marcel's large size estimate made 30+
 >years after the fact, and then there is the additional (or
 >related) factor of a reported _second site_ and how far away
 >that might have been, and whether there was or was not any
 >debris in between and whether or not such debris might have
 >simply been coincidentally blown around by the wind filling in
 >the gap between sites, and whether or not there was any
 >confusion (deliberate or unintentional) in deciding whether it
 >was two sites or just one very large site. Did you ever think of
 >that latter possibility? (Or any of these I've just mentioned?)
 >Bessie Brazel states in her affidavit (p. 277), "There may have
 >been additional material spread out more widely by the wind,
 >which was blowing quite strongly."

Ahhh... conjecture. We can also conjecture that testimony about
an entire aerospace craft with strewn bodies may also be a
possibility.








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   Aug > Aug 16

                     Lexington UFO Video - Still Images

From: Kenny Young <ufo@FUSE.NET>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 00:09:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 09:22:26 -0400
Subject: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images


Folks;

In regards to the suspected UFO video from Lexington, Kentucky
ABC affiliate Newschannel 36 WTVQ, a preliminary analysis is
underway and still images from that video are now available
online. I hope to receive some explanation for the object on the
video and hopefully a more detailed assessment will follow
shortly.

The link is:

http://home.fuse.net/ufo/lexufo.html


Thanks,


Kenny Young









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   Aug > Aug 16

                       [CANUFO] Nova Scotia Triangles

From: Eugene H. Frison <gfrison@cbnet.ns.ca>
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001  1:55 pm
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:03:53 -0400
Subject: [CANUFO] Nova Scotia Triangles


15.08.2001


Dear List:

The UFO report to Brian (over Nova Scotia on August 11) takes on
more substance as time goes on.

I received a telephone call from Steve MacLean (Nova Scotia
MUFON's former Provincial Director) last night who has heard of
three additional reports regarding triangles (or something
similiar) in Nova Scotia that night.

Steve relates accounts of "up to 30 pairs of bright white lights
with a red light in the center spanning a two hour period on the
night in question" reaching him.

Chris J. Styles (Nova Scotia MUFON's Assistant Provincial
Director) is on top of two of these reports (since they came to
him on his answering machine), according to Steve, and Steve
himself is looking into the third report which, I believe, he
received personally.

This makes four independent reports (including Brian's) and
Steve tells me that the three additional ones to Brian's
occurred between the hours of 10:00 - 12:00 PM. It may be
possible now to seperate these sightings from the extensive
background noise of bolides, meteor shower, and rocket booster
present that night because, unless there was a steady stream of
bolides fragmenting into triangle-like formations for two hours,
there's something that needs much closer looking at here.

May yet only turn out to be something mundane, like jets, but it
begins to increase the possibility that the object in Brian's
report was not the rocket booster or a meteor and was, in fact,
a triangular object (or at least the lights were in a triangular
formation) as his witness relates.

So, as it stands from my perspective right now, there was a neat
light show from the Perseids meteor shower that night, the
morning news in my area carried an interview with a guy who
claims to have seen an exceptionally bright and long-lived
bolide (this may have been the rocket booster), and four
independent people claim to have seen triangular light
formations with some of these people witnessing a stream of up
to thirty or more light formations over a two hour period.
Something now to sink the teeth into!

Conway, thanks for the bit on the bolide/FT connection. My son
made an interesting comment in this regard last night. If
someone wanted to disguise certain aerial activity then during a
meteor shower would be the perfect time, knowing that reports of
the activity would likely be c onfused with, or written off as,
'bright or long-lasting bolide' provided, of course, that the
objects they were playing with were sufficiently bolide-like in
appearance to begin with. Could it be possible the triangles are
a new plane with a new light configuration and the bolides  they
emit? are a new weapon being tested?

Just pondering and _not_ saying this is the answer!


Eugene Frison
Nova Scotia MUFON









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   Aug > Aug 16

                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 16:54:11 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:33:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 19:19:51 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 10:58:08 +0100
 >>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris

 >>Jesse Marcel's site description works out at aprox 777,500 sqft
 >>That dubious interview with Mack Brazel in the RDR of the 9th
 >>July quotes Mack as saying the site was 200 yards across that's
 >>aprox 282,700 sqft.

 >How can you have 4 digits of precision on these numbers? There's
 >no justification for it. It may look "good" for fooling
 >laypeople into thinking they're "scientific" but they're
 >meaningless. The areas should be rounded off to the same 1-digit
 >precision of the size estimates given, i.e., rounded off to
 >about 800,000 sq.ft. and 300,000 sq.ft. respectively.


Brad,

I actually rounded the numbers down, they come from the
following calculation.

Jesse Snr et al site discription:

3/4ml(3960ft) by 200-300 ft (aprox at 250ft) (elliptical
footprint assumed)

area of ellipse (major-axis x minor-axis) x 0.7854

(3960 x 250) x 0.7854 = 777,546 sq ft

(ditto for Mack's site, but a circular footprint assumed.)

 >>_If_ Charles Moore's MOGUL _did_ have 3
 >>ML307 reflectors and _if_ it did crash on the Foster Ranch it
 >>would only have

 >>_54_ sq ft of foil. (90 sq ft if it had 5 ML307's attached)

 >What about the rubber balloon material?

Yes what about the rubber?, it dosn't figure greatly in the very
early reports they concentrate on the debris as foil material,
like the 4'x3'x3' piece mentioned by Wilcox's deputies to the UP
newsservice on the afternoon of the 8th. Mack Brazel is also
quoted at that time as saying the debris mainly consisted of
foil like material.

 >>To cover the above two site descriptions with 34 sqft of foil
 >>that's

 >>0.0275 sq INCHES per sq ft for Mack's size

 >>and

 >>0.01 sq INCHES per sq ft for Jesse Marcel's size of debris field

 >>And that is a _mighty_ thin spread _just_ to provide a uniform
 >>background cover.

 >>To provide a _noticable_ say 10% coverage of the above 2 areas
 >>you would need aprox one tenth of each of the area's ie over
 >>70,000 and 28,000 square _feet_ of foil in each case.

 >Where do you _get_ these incredibly convenient numbers such as
 >"10% coverage"??? This is called bootstrapping. Apply a
 >"reasonable" number to something that you have no idea about,
 >that may be all or nothing and isn't statistical and like magic
 >you can bootstrap anything into existence.


Brad what figure of percentage coverage would you be happy using?

you need a minimum amount of coverage in a fairly uniform spread
to give the visual impression of a related area, a "debris field".

If you go down to 1% coverage the amount of material needed to
what was available _including_ the balloons, batteries, ballast
containers radio package et al is seriously lacking, and we are
assuming flight 4 _was_ configured just like the other flights
in the series, when we know the original flight 4 was cancelled
due to weather conditions and the launch has no official record,
only being noted in a team members diary as a test flight
presumably because they were already assembling the train when
the word came through to scrub the official launch. We _only_
have Charles Moore's memory to go on and the brief notes in that
diary to tell us how Flight 4 was actually configured, no
drawings and no log entry.

 >And again, you ignore the rubber balloon material.

The disparity is _so_ large I think you can, and remember the
brightly coloured ballast containers (labelled for recovery and
hazard) and all those hundreds of feet of twine don't get a look
in, the balloons were attached by the twine so were the ML307's
where you find one you _should_ have the other, nobody mentions
_any_ twine only some stuff like thin monofilament fishing line
and that's not what was used on the balloon flights.

And you also have to take into account Mack Brazel was quite
familiar with neoprene weather balloons he'd picked them up on
the ranch previously.

 >>And _all_ that from the _one_ Flight 4 MOGUL launch which only
 >>had at the very most 90sqft of foil and possibly _didn't_ have
 >>any foil ML307's at all???.

 >>But even if it did have ML307's the numbers don't really add up
 >>do they?

 >They do add up. If a shiny fragment of debris was spotted from a
 >distance, or by walking over to it, then the "debris field"
 >could be enormous. An aircraft accident investigation today
 >wouldn't exclude a fragment just because it was too far away or
 >more isolated than other fragments.

 >A set of three Mogul kite-like radar reflectors of about 50
 >sq.ft. total area could be divided up into one-foot sized pieces
 >and dispersed all over a 300- or 600-foot debris field. Suppose
 >one-foot was an average dimension of a fragment, ordinarily we
 >might say that would be 50 fragments but that's simplistic as
 >smaller pieces overwhelm the number distributions. Half the
 >fragments would be smaller, half larger. Of the half consisting
 >of the smaller pieces, half of that half (a quarter of the total
 >area) would be the smallest. I recall 3 inches as the size given
 >for a smaller piece (or 16 to one square foot), so suppose at
 >the low end of the size distribution half of half, or about 12
 >sq.ft., are divided into fragments of that size, and the other
 >half of half are say 6 inches in size (4 to a sq.ft.). That
 >would yield 192 small pieces plus 48 of the larger six-inch
 >pieces plus 12 one-foot pieces plus say 3 two-foot pieces,
 >there's two square feet left over in this approximation so if
 >they contribute to each category in the same proportions then we
 >get a total of about 266 fragments, which we can round off to
 >300 (pieces smaller than three inches could easily inflate the
 >numbers). That's a reasonable estimate of fragment size
 >distribution, at least as a start. So approximately 50 square
 >feet of foil reflector material could have broken up into
 >something like 300 fragments of a spectrum of sizes ranging from
 >perhaps 3 inches to 2 feet.

 >Bessie Brazel described a "football field" size debris field of
 >double-sided foil-rubber fragments. If the 300 fragments were
 >scattered across this approximately 70,000 sq.ft. area then each
 >fragment might on the average be about 15 feet apart - though
 >some might be bunched together and others more sparsely
 >separated. That certainly seems plausible.

 >A whole football field covered with eye-catching sun-flashing
 >foil-composite pieces, just from 50 square feet of material.

 >A few pieces could be blown out thousands of feet, extending the
 >size of the area for those who cared to walk over, or who could
 >spot a shiny piece flashing in the distance.

I played about with some figures over this some time ago:

The average foil density distribution across both sites working with
3x ML307C data is:

Site (1) 0.0275 Sq inches per sqft

Site (2) 0.01 Sq inches per sqft

To put these numbers into real world terms lets take an example
piece of foil of size 6 sq inches, a piece this area could be 2"
x 3" in size.

 From the _total_ foil available on Flt 4 you could get 1296 such
pieces out of the 54 sq ft.

You need a basic _minimum_ foil density to produce the visual
effect of a "defined" debris field, this minimum level must have
been reached to produce the descriptions given. To produce the
effect of a "defined debris field" using the 2" x 3" pieces we
would have to place them out on the desert as follows:

In case of Site (1) a lone piece of foil each at the centre of
1296 squares 14.7 ft by 14.7 ft. In the case of site (2) the
1296 squares would have to have sides of 24.5 ft x 25 ft.

And this would ONLY produce the "background" effect of the
defined debris fields as described.

(Would either of these really be dense enough, seen as our
witnesses were, on foot or from the back of a horse??.)

If you then wanted to produce "clumps" of debris, remember
witnesses state the foil was of various sizes many "larger" than
our 2"x3" test piece, you could only do this in the examples by
sticking a number of your 2"x3" pieces together, because you
only have 54sqft of material in 1296 pieces to work with, no
more, no less, that's _all_ the foil there is. Now you have some
larger pieces, but oops! you now have a few _large_ areas with
_no_ debris at all!!, because you had to use the pieces in those
areas up to make your bigger pieces. The more and larger the
concentrations on one place the thinner the distribution _has_
to get in others. You only have the one cake, if one person
decides to have a big piece somebody else either gets a smaller
piece or none at all!, and this cake is a fixed 54 sqft.

And what about the amount of foil debris needed to produce that
4'x3'x3' piece Mack talked about to the Roswell Police Dept?,
thats got to come out of your total amount too.

 >Do you have any witness testimony giving an average separation
 >distance for the fragments in the debris field that would
 >conflict with this estimate? I don't know of any witness who
 >ever gave such a separation distance figure.

No but we know from both Mack and Jesse Marcel the density _was_
great enough to allow both to visually conclude the direction of
flight of whatever it was that came appart over the ranch.


Neil






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   Aug > Aug 16

                            Nova Scotia Triangles

From: Eugene H. Frison <gfrison@c...>
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001  1:55 pm
Fwd Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:10:50 -0400
Subject: Nova Scotia Triangles


15.08.2001


Dear List:

The UFO report to Brian (over Nova Scotia on August 11) takes on
more substance as time goes on.

I received a telephone call from Steve MacLean (Nova Scotia
MUFON's former Provincial Director) last night who has heard of
three additional reports regarding triangles (or something
similiar) in Nova Scotia that night.

Steve relates accounts of "up to 30 pairs of bright white lights
with a red light in the center spanning a two hour period on the
night in question" reaching him.

Chris J. Styles (Nova Scotia MUFON's Assistant Provincial
Director) is on top of two of these reports (since they came to
him on his answering machine), according to Steve, and Steve
himself is looking into the third report which, I believe, he
received personally.

This makes four independent reports (including Brian's) and
Steve tells me that the three additional ones to Brian's
occurred between the hours of 10:00 - 12:00 PM. It may be
possible now to seperate these sightings from the extensive
background noise of bolides, meteor shower, and rocket booster
present that night because, unless there was a steady stream of
bolides fragmenting into triangle-like formations for two hours,
there's something that needs much closer looking at here.

May yet only turn out to be something mundane, like jets, but it
begins to increase the possibility that the object in Brian's
report was not the rocket booster or a meteor and was, in fact,
a triangular object (or at least the lights were in a triangular
formation) as his witness relates.

So, as it stands from my perspective right now, there was a neat
light show from the Perseids meteor shower that night, the
morning news in my area carried an interview with a guy who
claims to have seen an exceptionally bright and long-lived
bolide (this may have been the rocket booster), and four
independent people claim to have seen triangular light
formations with some of these people witnessing a stream of up
to thirty or more light formations over a two hour period.
Something now to sink the teeth into!

Conway, thanks for the bit on the bolide/FT connection. My son
made an interesting comment in this regard last night. If
someone wanted to disguise certain aerial activity then during a
meteor shower would be the perfect time, knowing that reports of
the activity would likely be c onfused with, or written off as,
'bright or long-lasting bolide' provided, of course, that the
objects they were playing with were sufficiently bolide-like in
appearance to begin with. Could it be possible the triangles are
a new plane with a new light configuration and the bolides  they
emit? are a new weapon being tested?

Just pondering and _not_ saying this is the answer!


Eugene Frison
Nova Scotia MUFON









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   Aug > Aug 17

                      Re: Roswell Debris Field - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 12:02:16 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:17:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell Debris Field - Young


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: 16 Aug 2001 06:10:44 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Brazel & Roswell Debris [was: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell']

 >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 06:22:55 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >Mac Brazel: The debris field was 3/4 of a mile long and 300 feet
 >wide. It was oriented in a northwest to southeast direction.
 >There was a gouge in the northwest side of the debris field that
 >was 500 feet long and 10 feet wide.

Bill:

I may have missed something, but could you please provide a
citation for this quote from Mr. Brazel, in his lifetime?

<snip>

 >Even if we estimate the debris field to be a mere 250 ft long
 >parabolic spread it would require 10 of the rawin targets.

Where did this "requirement" come from?

<snip>

 >It gets pretty foggy at this point doesn't it?

That's for sure, no matter what your point of view, here.

 >If any of the testimony about the unusual properties of the
 >metal are correct, then rawin foil it is not.

If any of the testimony by people known to have been there in
1947 is correct about "rawin" debris, and its striking
resemblance to the stuff in the Fort Worth pictures, what does
this say about the amazing properties of the "saucer debris"
conjured up years later?

<snip>

 >We can also conjecture that testimony about an entire
 >aerospace craft with strewn bodies may also be a possibility.

Not likely, if any of the 1947 testimony and pictures of rawin
debris is real. Unless, of course, you subcribe to Dr.
Maccabbe's hypothesis that the alien starship got tangled in the
600 ft Mogul train and fell out of the sky. Actually, this
hypothesis by Bruce is about as likely as any of the other
crashed saucer tales coming from this event.


Clear skies,

Bob Young


---------------------------------------------------------

No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the
testimony be of such a kind that its falseness would be more
miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish.

                      -- David Hume









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   Aug > Aug 17

               Re: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 12:45:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:20:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images - Velez


 >Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 00:09:30 -0400
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@FUSE.NET>
 >Subject: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >Folks;

 >In regards to the suspected UFO video from Lexington, Kentucky
 >ABC affiliate Newschannel 36 WTVQ, a preliminary analysis is
 >underway and still images from that video are now available
 >online. I hope to receive some explanation for the object on the
 >video and hopefully a more detailed assessment will follow
 >shortly.

 >The link is:

 >http://home.fuse.net/ufo/lexufo.html


Hi Kenny,

Thanx for the pix! That's one Hell of a balloon if that's what
it is. The size of a van you say. It would have to be a 'one
off' custom creation if it is a balloon. How many specialty
balloon manufacturers can there be with the capability to
produce such a complex creation? I would imagine only one or two
of a handful of parade balloon manufacturers would be capable of
making a balloon this size, and of this quality of detail. And
no anchoring line? Surprising for what -must be- a terribly
expensive balloon. (If that's what it is.)

If it is a balloon, they should get one for our annual Macy's
Thanksgiving Day parade! Far out.  I can hear one of the
spectators now:

"Martha, get in the car and head for New Jersey! They've landed,
they've landed!"  ;)


Regards,

John Velez








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   Aug > Aug 17

                Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 10:29:57 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:55:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure -


[Non-Subscriber Post]

Dear Mr. Velez and others:


 >Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 17:29:51 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure
 >>Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 07:30:40 -0500


 >>As regards our striker. In the first place we are talking about
 >>a grown woman here that has rationally demonstrated some
 >>egalitarian sense and rational seriousness in the past, a
 >>cursory look seems to show. Allusions to "bonkers" might be a
 >>little premature, needlessly distracting, and an otherwise
 >>inaccurate splash of well meaning, but point-missing, paint...

 >Misinterpretation Al. I was referring to those who were egging
 >her on not to Lara.

To, anyone concerned about my health, my request would be
contact your senator or congressman, and ask them if the
President got my letter. And if he has, what he is going to
do about it. I mean if you are really concerned. If not - that
is okay. ;-)

I guess I may have higher expectations from my President (Mbeki
and Mandela), since every single time I have written them a
letter, even if from another country, I have gotten a response.
I have never had to go on a hunger strike to get thier
attention. ;-) Twice my letter was both forwarded to the
relevant department were somebody was ordered to get back to me
with relevant information. For a Third World country going down
the hill (thanks the World Bank etc, etc.) I consider that the
way any Presidents office, who is interested in _serving_ his/her
country can do.

My suggestions to anyone with extra energy or charge on this
issue - would be this:

Make a copy of my letter to President Bush, and write a letter
similar to mine to your congressperson - see both at:

www.amandla.org/ufo/

then take it to your Congress person and ask them
for a response. You want a personal response regarding the
Presidents response to me! When we come at them from all sides!
And when we put directly daily or weekly visits to our congress
persons - the pressure will be on. My congresswoman is working
very hard at it! I think she deserves a bit of help! Let us make
those halls of Congress sing with '*&^% the people want some
answers'! There are a few brave souls in there - who if they
know the people support them, would rise to the occassion. We
need to give them some courage!;-)

 >My first remark about her was that she
 >"seemed to be" a sincere person. I am also not questioning her
 >'cause'. It is her 'methods' that I think are a bit extreme. See
 >next response.

I agree, and I also think the situation is way _beyond_ extreme,
and anyone who hasn't noticed that, may think there is precious
much more time! I on the contrary am not so sure, and don't see
why I should wait till I am 60 (which I doubt I'll get to see
with Colombian Vietnam on the way, chemtrails, toxic food,
depopulations, viruses like AIDS and who knows what else?) to
find out about travelling and visiting more enlightened beings
from out of space! It has got to stop!

And this is the first time we have 450 direct insider witnesses
who are prepared to testify! As well as a President who promised
to tell the truth! That to me is a gift from God! And I will do
whatever I can to support these men at this critical time! ;-)
We can all benefit from some disclosure, in physical, emotional,
psychological and so many other ways.... ;-)

 >>An intelligent fast is actually a healthy thing, to a point;
 >>John likely knows that. There is no _mal_ nutrition in a healthy
 >>fast, there is only an 'under' nutrition that most people in the
 >>western hemisphere could have a couple of helpings of anyway...
 >>I've got a whole paper in the spring-loaded, ready to go
 >>position, so we can dicker that point if you want to.

 >No "dickering" at all. And yes, having studied and practiced
 >contemplative as well as certain physical forms of Yoga (all of
 >my adult life) I am familiar with, and have performed many
 >healthy, cleansing fasts. Many of which are intended to last for
 >only three to five days. Juice Fasts can go as long as a month
 >without jeopardizing health. The point I was trying to make was
 >that this fast that Lara is engaged in (due to its political
 >nature) has no preset terminus. She intends to persist until
 >George Dubya responds.

Exactly! ;-) So, lets get dubya to respond. After all he works
for _you_! He is your employee as such! ;-) I know it is a
little simplistic, but that is really what he is. And he is an
employee who has through tiime forced his employer to pay him
yearly taxes, which he squanders and uses to kill, and he has
used his employers money to limit his employers rights and
freedoms! I think such an employee either gets a kick under the
butt, or is fired! But if we allow this to be done to us, it is
only our fault! ;-)

I intend to persist until he responds, and I think he better
know that! I would suggest and appreciate your energy directed
at the problem of a president who makes agreements and does not
keep them! I will gladly go away or stop my fast (and have some
coffee gelato in heavenly bliss) if he directly responds!

 >Between you, me, and the wall, that just ain't gonna happen.

what a sad thing to say about your President, and also that you
are not driven to do anything about such a situation.

 >So, what are we looking at? An extended fast that can only have
 >deleterious effects (even on someone who fasts regularly) if it
 >should approach or go beyond the thirty day range and a dolt of
 >a President whose concern for humanity is second only to
 >Goering. (Refer to Dubya's responses when asked about reprieves
 >for death row inmates during his terms as Governer of Texas.
 >This guy is no humanitarian!)

Exactly! However, he does like to think of himself as a southern
man who honors agreements! Well, he made one with the american
people (huffer's question) and I want him to keep it!

 >All that his tiny brain is capable of handling is keeping track
 >of his golf scores as he makes the rounds of his favorite
 >courses. (And I'll bet the farm that his caddy handles all the
 >complicated math for him!) Lara and anybody else who thinks Bush
 >is going to respond to a Hunger Strike For UFO Disclosure is
 >simply deluding themselves big-time. This fast of hers could go
 >much, much longer than her 'supporters' suspect.

We shall see Mr. Velez.

 >Ergo, my concern for Lara's health and continued well-being.

 >>The human body evolved on the savanna where a fast was a
 >>continuing aspect of reality.

 >I'm sure that Lara like many other Americans is used to eating
 >regularly and fairly well. The beast you speak of may have
 >existed in bygone eras, and currently in many third world
 >countries but, America is the Fat-ass Capitol of the world. I
 >doubt that many second and third generation yankees have
 >inherited the kind of wiry - used to long periods of hunger -
 >body/genes that you reference here.

 >An extended fast of the kind that Lara has undertaken can only
 >begin to debilitate her and effect her overall health at some
 >point. Every principle that I was taught about fasting goes
 >against prolonged (more than thirty days) fasting. I was merely
 >stating that I cannot in good conscience support something that
 >is potentially harmful to another.

Mr. Velez, I appreciate you for your concern - again - for my
well-being. The truth I want from Mr. Bush is also a truth if
revealed may alter the state of world affairs. I would gladly
put my white, healthy body at a bit of risk, which many billions
of other yellow, brown and black bodies are subjected to _all_
of their lives, so that American intelligence agencies can keep
their little secrets and the american public don't do anything
about hte effects these secrets have on the rest ofthe world.

Lets just take Iraq - 6000 children die every single month, from
forced starvation, bad water etc! That the USA _planned_! And
all the US govt is concerned about is 'managing the PR storm'..
Well, for all those children, for all the children in Africa who
have been vaccinated with free AIDS, for all the Colombian
children being sprayed with some version of Agent Orange! For
all of those, I want and will demand that when a president
promises to tell the truth, I damn well hold him accountable!
Even if it costs me a bit of discomfort! ;-)

I would appreciate your help in whichever way you deem fit, and
imagine we will get more done if we keep our focus on him! ;-)

 >I never said she didn't have
 >a right to do it, and I didn't question that right. Nor was I
 >calling _her_ bonkers. That was meant for the crowd gathered
 >under the parapet she is standing on yelling, "Jump, jump!"

Thank you! ;-) I 'jumped' many years ago, when I heard the
testimony of witnesses in the Truth and Reconciliation Hearings
in South Africa. When I heard the truth about all the secrets of
oppression, torture and degradation of the human soul. My soul
wept and wept. I had known something was going on, but not what.
I had believed the lies I was told, or at least did not demand
their truth. I promised myself - _never_ again! If someone was
willing to stand up and tell the truth, I would support that
person!

Also my own growth in learning to be honest with myself has led
me to much healing of things I previously denied, but had
constant pain and insecurity about. I no longer have any of
that, just love, and a willingness to share with others taht 'it
doesn't have to be this way' - we can live with truth, with
integrity to ourselves and our fellow plants, animals and beings
from wherever. ;-)

Sincerely,

Lara Johnstone


+=============================================+
|  Hungerstrike Requesting President Bush to  |
|   honor his agreement to tell the American  |
|     people the truth, by supporting the     |
|  Disclosure Project witnesses to testify    |
| about their extensive knowledge of UFO's:   |
+---------------------------------------------+
|       Bush/UFO Disclosure Request:          |
|       http://www.amandla.org/ufo/           |
|           Disclosure Project:               |
|     http://www.disclosureproject.org/       |
+=============================================+








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   Aug > Aug 17

                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 322

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 17:03:41 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 14:00:19 -0400
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 322


Italian UFO Newsflash

ISSUE NO. 322 -  10 AUGUST 2001

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- Increase in Italian Sightings during July
- Hessdalen 2001: Mission Is Underway
- Richard Haines�s Book on the Valentich Case
   Finally Translated in Italian


Increase In Italian Sightings During July

Giuseppe Stilo has disseminated an initial list of reports on
sightings received or gathered by the Italian Center for UFO
Studies and relative to this past July: it covers 67 observation
cases, which indicate not only a continuance but an increase in
the ongoing, small summer UFO wave  and this despite the fact
that the number of incidents reported by the mass media have
meanwhile been decreasing (55 newspaper clippings culled from
the "Eco della Stampa" newsclipping service  during the month of
July, compared with 86 in June).

The sightings continue distributed throughout the Peninsula, and
even though the northern regions are maintaining a slight lead,
the central and southern areas are no longer that far behind in
the statistics. As always, nocturnal lights prevail, but in July
there occurred 11 daylight objects, 8 close encounters and 3
cases captured on videotape.

In the meantime, the list of reports for the month of June has
been updated, with an increase in number from 54 to 62.

The first week of August, which has recorded 10 cases already,
seems to indicate that the wave is continuing. Of these, that
having had a major impact on the mass media has been the daytime
film taken in Trapani on the afternoon of 6 August and broadcast
on the Channel 5 newscast during the following evening.

[Reported by Giuseppe Stilo; CasiUfoList, 9 August;
collaboration by Roberto Labanti.]


Hessdalen 2001: Mission Underway

Mission 2001 in Hessdalen has been underway for over two weeks.
During this period, four Italian researchers (Massimo Teodorani,
Simona Righini, Andrea Cremonini and Flavio Gori), with
sponsorship by the Italian Project Hessdalen Committee, have
provided continuity to EMBLA 2000, the Italian-Norwegian
international project (International Council for Research and
Ostfold University College) for the study and the gathering of
data on luminous phenomena in the atmosphere over the Norwegian
valley. To these next week will be added Star Montebugnoli and
Jader Monari (CNR Institute of Radioastronomy and Radio
Observatory of Medicine).

The following week, the Italian researchers will participate
with their peers in a seminar organized in Holtalen by Ostfold
College, with the purpose of raising issues pertaining to
'Future Research Endeavors by the Hessdalen Project'.

[Press Release by CIPH, 10 August; collaboration
by Renzo Cabassi.]


Haines' Book On The Valentich Case Finally Translated Into
Italian

After a long wait, the Italian translation of Richard Haines�s
book has finally been published  about the celebrated case of
Frederick Valentich, the young Australian pilot who disappeared
along with his airplane immediately after having reported his s
ighting of a UFO on 21 October 1978.

An optic physicist and an expert on aeronautic issues, Haines
worked for the NASA and is the world�s premier expert on UFO
sightings made by pilots. The Italian edition of the book,
published by the Italian Center for UFO Studies, contains an
afterward by Marco Orlandi (Italian director of Project AirCat)
concerning updates having taken place through last year.

The book is entitled "Delta Sierra Juliet Rispondi�", and is
published by Edizioni UPIAR, with 292 pages and at a price of
32,000 Lire (27,000 Lire for CISU members). It may be ordered
directly from the publisher or from the Italian Center for UFO
Studies. First copies will be made available to the public at
the UFO converence organized on 11 August in Sassalbo (Massa
Carrara).

[Reported by Gian Paolo Grassino.]

- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by  Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website at
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di informazione
ufologica", published by the Italian Center for UFO Studies,
registered at Tribunale di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo. Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso
Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2001  by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing - send a blank
message to: cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org








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   Aug > Aug 17

                     Re: New UFO-Flap In Turkey? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 13:40:43 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 14:01:45 -0400
Subject: Re: New UFO-Flap In Turkey? - Hatch


 >Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 16:22:51 -0300
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: New UFO-Flap In Turkey?

 >>Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 16:26:36 -0400
 >>From: Joachim Koch <AchimKoch@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: New UFO-Flap In Turkey?
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>Hi List,

 >>I've just heard it on the radio and it was on page one of the
 >>Turkish newspaper "Hurriyet" on Aug. 8th:

 >>Two Turkish Air Force bomber pilots, Ilker Dincer and Arda
 >>Gunyer, in their T-37 reported to the tower that they suddenly
 >>saw a glowing disk-like UFO over the province of Izmir. It was
 >>traveling with fast speed and they followed it. They were able
 >>to lock on and had kind of a dog fight for some moments, then
 >>the UFO buzzed out of sight.

 >>"Hurriyet" spent page number one for this report and printed
 >>much of the conversation between the two pilots and the tower:
 >>"the object comes close to the wings... it is behind us... now
 >>it is in front of us...it is like a dogfight..."

 >>At the same time nothing was to be seen on the radar screens.
 >>Some international news agencies such as AFP have picked up the
 >>news.

<snip>

 >>Joachim Koch, Berlin

 >Hi Joachim,

 >I've been watching this thread for a couple of days. I note that
 >the Cessna T-37 is being called a bomber which it might be in
 >the Turkish AF. Usually it's a trainer - or was. Dubbed the
 >Tweet or Tweety Bird by the USAF it's sports two seats, side by
 >side so if the two Turkish jets intercepted or chased this UFO
 >there were likely four witnesses to the event. It's top speed is
 >about 360 mph. it can be configured with a couple of 250 pound
 >bombs.

 >See: http://www.af.mil/news/factsheets/T_37_Tweet.html


Hi Don:

Everything I think I read seems to indicate a single T-37
trainer, with two men aboard.


Best

- Larry









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   Aug > Aug 17

                        Re: Ramey's Debris - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 17:48:25 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 14:04:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Friedman


 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 22:12:23 -0500

 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:13:39 -0300

 ><snip>

 >>As noted in the last portion of the RDR [Roswell Daily Record]
 >>article for July 9 (which is the basis for all the Mogul balloon
 >>nonsense), Brazel was sure it wasn't a weather balloon.

 >>He had found them before.

 >Stan,

 >Think about what you're saying here.

 >Are you suggesting that single weather balloons were raining
 >down on the Foster ranch to the extent that Brazel had come
 >across several others before encountering whatever it was that
 >he took into Roswell? That he was _familiar_ with same?

 >Gadzooks, man, what is the likelihood of _that_?

What a strange question. It has been known for more than 20
years that Brazel had found at least 2 weather balloons and been
paid the rewards offered on the attached notices. (Instrument
packages). The Ranch was at least 10,000 acres, not a half acre
plot in a city. He had lived there a long time. Many balloons
had been launched in New Mexico. It might be more amazing if he
hadn't found any.

 >But, if true, doesn't this suggest that the Foster ranch was in
 >the "flight path" of balloon operations? Or was Brazel just
 >lucky enough to have stumbled across one or two prior to his
 >third encounter?

Lucky or unlucky?? He had found balloons he stated unequivocally
that what he had found wasn't any weather balloon.

 >You can't have it both ways, no doubt as much as you would like
 >to.

What do you mean both ways?

Because he was familiar with weather balloons, he recognized
that what he had found wasn't any weather balloon. The sherrif
noted it as unusual. Marcel noted it as unusual and not a
weather balloon. That is why Blanchard sent Marcel and Cavitt
out there to look at the mess of stuff in the pasture.

Remember that there is no way a small bundle of stuff would have
covered an area even 200 yards in diameter. If all he had found
was a weather balloon as liar Cavitt claimed) taking up an area
only 20 feet square and easily fitting in to one vehicle, he
would have brought it in in his pickup truck and there would
have been nothing left behind and no reason for Marcel and
Cavitt to trail him out in the boondocks. Remember that Marcel
couldn't talk to the press and describe the area he had seen

 >And speaking of having it both ways... have you encountered any
 >recent news or revelations that might lead you to reconsider
 >Gerald Anderson's veracity re claims to having been a SEAL?

 >If so, might we expect to see news of same on your new web
 >site?

 >Curious minds would like to know.

At least three of us including Kevin and myself have contacted
individuals noted in the article you noted. All of us were
informed that Gerald wasn't a SEAL according to the files they
have..I have been trying to go the next step and find out if he
was ever in the military at all. I have had two responses
indicating that he was not listed on the lists they consulted.
Both indicated that was not 100% certain. I do have a copy ( I
saw the original) of a navy discharge document for Gerald
Francis Anderson dated June 6,1969.His birthdate is October 4,
1941. People keep saying to try the Personnel records Center. I
submitted a request, but everybody including the VA people say
that it takes weeks or months to get a response. I don't have a
serial number or social security number Anybody know a
congressman who could have a quick search done?

When I know more I will inform the List.. One of the problems is
that computerized files often treat middle names and initials
differently.and have different sources For example, I was trying
to get a zip code for someone for whom I had a phone number. The
first two reverse look up files had no match. The third had the
full address. In addition I can't use the 800 numbers, now given
out for US government offices, from Canada. That is often the
only number provided

Stan Friedman








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   Aug > Aug 17

                   Re: Ramey Message 'Eagle Seal' - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 16:45:22 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:15:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey Message 'Eagle Seal' - Sparks


 >Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 17:09:41 +0100
 >From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Ramey Message 'Eagle Seal'

 >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 21:35:57 EDT
 >>Fwd Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 10:00:55 -0400
 >>Subject: Ramey Message 'Eagle Seal' [was: Review of

 >>>Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 17:30:01 +0100
 >>>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'

 >>Neil,

 >>I give you numbers you give me doubletalk. It is text of a
 >>message, not an image of a bird, an eagle!

 >>Do we only get pelicanism out of the UK these days?

 >>I gave you specific _quantitative_ measurements of the angles of
 >>orientation of the paper - which you totally ignore because you
 >>can't refute them - and you respond by pointing to irrelevant
 >>minor ripples or deviations from a flat surface.

 >Brad,

<snip>

 >You give _one_ all encompassing angle of 15 degrees, I think
 >this is an over generalisation of the situation. That upper
 >section of the message is both folded and curved and though some
 >points _might_ present a 15 degree profile to the camera, others
 >undoubtedly _don't_.

Neil,

You _still_ don't give any _numbers_. You still have no
quantitative evidence. You're still blowing smoke with idle
speculation instead of facts. You still point to irrelevancies
and distractions, apparently hoping it will all seem so
technical to most people that no one will notice.

Let me give you FACTS in response to your baseless speculation
and distractions:

FACT 1: About 84% of the total area of your imaginary "seal" is
on a plateau portion of the Ramey paper that _is_ in fact at
about a steep 15� angle to the camera. (See detailed inventory
below.)

Hence you continue to distract us with irrelevancies about paper
angles that relate only to about 16% of the "seal." You ignore
the fact that about 84% of the "seal" is in fact at the angle
that I measured and that that 15� angle is enormously steeper
than the 45� angle that you imagine for the "seal." There is no
way out of this Neil.


 >You have continuously changing angles of presentation to the
 >camera above and below a mean, caused by those "insignificant",
 >as you call them, ripples in the paper.

FACT 2: There are no "ripples" in the upper left corner of the
Ramey Message. The only "ripples" or creases are located
_elsewhere_ on the paper and are caused by:

   (a) the folding into four rectangles,

   (b) the warping caused by General Ramey's fingers and thumb,
    which can easily be seen from the back on the Bettmann
    Archive photo, and there are no ripples in that far upper
    left corner.

One can see that Ramey is gripping and crinkling the paper in
his fingers and those fingers are not touching the upper half of
the paper at all.

 >>You overlay an "eagle seal" over the Ramey message that is about
 >>45� off horizontal whereas the Ramey paper is itself at about
 >>15� in that top-left corner.

 >That top left corner itself is curving, check it's illumination.


FACT 3: The upper left corner upturns sharply at the edge of and
beyond the alleged rim of the "seal" but the main body of the
alleged "seal" is on a flat plateau at about a 15� angle from
edge-on horizontal. The upturn is obviously irrelevant to the
flat plateau area where the supposed "eagle" is seen.

 >>Your seal overlay is therefore
 >>grossly improperly positioned by a factor of three, an error of
 >>300%, a few degrees' deviation for ripples or curves makes no
 >>dent in the size of the overall error, of 300%. How can there
 >>possibly be any dispute over this? Is it because angles are
 >>involved? Is it because numbers are involved? Do people just
 >>tune out as soon as they see a number or a concept they think is
 >>too intricate? Why is this so hard? This problem would make a
 >>laughingstock in any university math or physics department in
 >>the world.

 >But because of the curvatures in the sheet, it _is_ possible for
 >a seal/stamp located where I claim to see it to be visible as
 >it's seen in the image. A practical _real_world_ demonstration
 >shows this to be the case.

Is it now only "possible"??? Either there is an eagle seal there
or there isn't. Your "practical _real_world_ demonstration" of a
seal that is quite properly angled at 15� shows this _not_ to be
the case but a physical impossibility since you are imagining a
perfectly undistorted "seal" at an angle of 45� from the blobs
on the Ramey Message. The two are radically different.

<snip>

 >>Let me recap here: You've made a serious mistake about the
 >>orientation of the paper in the top-left corner of the Ramey
 >>message. It is a physical impossibility for an "eagle seal" at a
 >>45� angle, as you've overlaid it over the Ramey message image,
 >>to be on the surface of the paper, which is much flatter at a
 >>15� angle, as it would float above the paper by nearly 1 inch.

 >>You have the equivalent of a pelican outflying a civil aircraft.

 >Brad, you may be interested in the plot to be found at:

 >http://www.thefortworthphotographs.freeserve.co.uk/images/section.gif

I understand the concept of ripples so why do you present this
diagram when you later admit (see below) this is hypothetical
and illustrative and has nothing to do with the Ramey Message?
This is irrelevant distraction!

 >This demonstrates my objections to treating the Ramey message
 >paper as a predominantly flat sheet.

 >The diagram shown represents a cross section through a paper
 >sheet having a surface rippled and curved. For simplicity the
 >cross section plot was created with a series of regular curves
 >of fixed radius.

 >Before I go any further let me make it clear this image should
 >_not_ be taken as anything more than an illustrative model.
 >It's _not_ to be taken as a direct representation of the ramey
 >message paper, it's cross section is still unknown.

Irrelevant distraction! The cross-section of the Ramey Message
_is_ known! Just look at the back of the paper in the Bettmann
Archive photo. Just make some measurements on the actual Ramey
Message photo instead of spouting off nonsense.

FACT 4: The alleged "seal" covers so much, vertically, of the
upper 3 inches of the Ramey Message that it starts close to the
edge of Ramey's thumb at the half-way fold and goes off the top
edge of the paper. Yet it's only supposed to be about 1.3 inches
wide. How can it be more than 3 inches tall? This is a physical
impossibility.

Neil answer this crucial question: Do you or do you not "see"
the top of the "seal" running off the top edge of the paper as
well as the bottom edge of the "seal rim" nearly touching
Ramey's thumb?

FACT 5: Your imaginary "seal" is too perfect in shape to fit
the sloped paper. Far edges of the imagined "seal" do fall onto
portions of the paper at a different angle than the 15� plateau
on which the main body of the supposed" seal rests -- yet there
is none of the extreme distortion one would expect, in fact
there is no distortion at all. It's as if your imagination has
created a perfect "seal" that does not follow the real world
orientation and distortion of the paper it is supposed to be on.
The upper left portion of the supposed "rim" does extend over on
to the upturned corner of the paper (which is at about 35�) on a
small section of rim amounting to only about 2% of the total
area of the "seal." Yet that part of the imagined circular
double "rim" still remains perfectly circular and is not
distorted. The bottom of the imagined "rim" extends so far down
the paper that it actually reaches the center fold where the
paper is close to 90� to the camera.

So while you continue to try to confuse us with nonsense about
ripples and different angles that aren't relevant let me give
quantitative facts:

FACT 5: Most of the imagined "seal," about 84% of it (see
measurements below), is on a portion of the Ramey Message paper
at 15� including a small portion extending off the paper but at
the same angle (about 5%). Only small portions of the "seal"
extend over onto portions of the paper at different angles,
about 16% of the "seal." These portions are as follows:

Upper Left of "Seal's Rim": About 0.1 x 0.3 inch (2% of total
area) at about 35�

Lower Portion "Seal & Rim": About 0.3 x 0.6 inch (14% of total
area) slopes down from 15� portion to 45�-60� portion

TOTAL: About 16% of "Seal" on portions of paper sloped greater
        than 15�

        About 84% of "seal" on the portion of paper at about 15�

My sad prediction is that you will continue to confuse us with
distractions about the 16% portions of the seal that are at
angles to the camera greater than the main body or 84% of the
"seal" that is at 15� and continue to evade the implications of
this shape distortion that is not seen in your imagined outline
of the "seal" that is 100% angled at the entirely different 45�
angle.


Brad








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   Aug > Aug 17

                  Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 16:55:03 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:17:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sparks


 >Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 18:19:22 -0400
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 17:51:09 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>Date: 14 Aug 2001 07:21:45 -0700
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'

 ><snip>

 >>Now about the testimony of Sheridan Cavitt. In my lost post, I
 >>made extensive quotes of Cavitt, and I am not going to do it
 >>again. In a nutshell, Cavitt repeated all the time, in the 30
 >>pages interview of Colonel Weaver, that he had found a simple,
 >>uninteresting weather balloon, or a "radio sonde". The debris
 >>was small, "maybe as long as this room wide". He did not see any
 >>tape decorated with flowers, etc. If he had recovered a huge
 >>balloon train, twenty balloons or more, attached to a strong
 >>nylon line, with radar reflectors and various intruments, he
 >>should have at least vaguely remembered that, but he didn't.

 >>So, as Bob Durant puts it very well, it is no big surprise that
 >>this is not quoted in the book. It is so damaging to the Mogul
 >>theory! It is a serious flaw of the book. On the contrary, it
 >>does not harm the ufo theory because, as you admit yourself,
 >>Cavitt is lying all the time. He had no need to do that if he
 >>had found a Mogul balloon train, but he needed to if he had
 >>found a ufo.

 >I point out again that a detailed analysis of Cavitt's interview
 >is at:

 >http://brumac.8k.com

 >There I have argued that either Cavitt had somehow mixed up the
 >Roswell retrieval with some other event or else he was flat out
 >lying.

 >I believe he was lying.


Hi Bruce,

I re-read your analysis and I disagree. I agree that Cavitt lied
about supposedly not recognizing that there was an ET
implication to the "flying saucer" or UFO controversy -- he
certainly could not have been that stupid. I also agree that
Cavitt lied in maintaining it was a weather balloon and avoiding
Mogul.

However you yourself pointed out the very real possibility that
the discrepancies in Cavitt's story with respect to others'
testimonies may be due to the possibility that Cavitt went out
only on the 2nd Trip to the Brazel site, by which time much of
the debris had already been collected on the 1st Trip, so the
area might have looked small to him when he saw it for the first
time.

If this happened on Sunday July 6 at the end of a 4th of July
holiday weekend, as the UP wire report states (Pflock pp. 90,
246), there might have been difficulty and delay in rounding up
base personnel such as Cavitt immediately.


Brad









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   Aug > Aug 17

                      Re: Roswell Debris Field - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 17:08:41 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 16:10:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell Debris Field - Sparks


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: 16 Aug 2001 06:10:44 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Brazel & Roswell Debris [was: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell']


 >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 06:22:55 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>Date: 14 Aug 2001 07:21:45 -0700
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'

 >>>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>>Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:18:16 -0700

 >>>>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>>>>Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 09:48:29 EDT
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>><snip>

 >>>>>Despite Pflock quoting literally pages of witness testimony to
 >>>>>unusual material properties in the Roswell debris throughout his
 >>>>>book and repeatedly reciting it to the point of redundancy (AP
 >>>>>reporter Kellahin's description of the material is quoted twice
 >>>>>on the same page, p. 153), and presenting an extremely valuable
 >>>>>collection of 50 pages of witness interview transcripts and
 >>>>>affidavits,

 >>>>I just purchased Pflock's "Roswell' yesterday and expected a
 >>>>$26, typical debunking hack-job but was surprised to find an
 >>>>interesting, fact-filled, hack-job instead.

 >>>I think you hit the nail on the head here, Ed.

 >>>>And while you're correct that Karl has made an important
 >>>>contribution to Roswell research, his conclusions are dead wrong
 >>>>and dumb. (find an identifiable piece of the mogul on the floor
 >>>>of Gen. Ramey's office) This it is not the fault of the
 >>>>information that Pflock has gathered together, but his own spin
 >>>>on the details.

 >>>Agreed. Marcel's large field-size estimate is a vital factor as
 >>>well as descriptions of the material found by those who handled
 >>>it and that does not logically lead to Pflock's conclusion.

 >>>The field-size was estimated to be about 4,000 ft long (3/4
 >>>mile) by about 250 feet wide. That is about 1,000,000 square
 >>>feet.

 >>>Assuming that to be a maximum and assuming the debris field to
 >>>be uneven in shape, we can still estimate that the ground was
 >>>covered by about 6,000 square feet of material.

 >>>Assuming half this size and about 3,000 square feet of thin
 >>>metallic material (no identifiable remnants of neoprene balloons
 >>>seemed to have been mentioned), then how do we reconcile this
 >>>with Rawin targets which had a total of 54 square feet of
 >>>surface area. Lets see now - that would be around 55 Rawin
 >>>targets.

 >>>Hmmm... new theory.

 >>>Someone disposed of old Rawin targets on the Foster Ranch and
 >>>paid him a fee for it. No balloons needed. How is that for
 >>>imaginative skepticism?

 >>You know better than this. No witness to the debris field ever
 >>specified - or could ever be reliable enough to specify - the
 >>density of debris fragments constituting this field, especially
 >>from memory 30-50 years later. I notice you don't mention
 >>Brazel's contemporaneous July 8, 1947, estimate of the size of
 >>the debris field of _rubber_ as about "two hundred yards" (600
 >>feet) - almost exactly the size of a 657-foot Mogul balloon
 >>train of 23 rubber balloons. (Roswell Daily Record, July 9,
 >>1947) Nor do you mention Bessie Brazel's 300-foot estimate
 >>("about the size of a football field"). She said the debris was
 >>"scattered sparsely" and that the wind might have blown it
 >>farther than that. (Pflock p. 277) Can you translate "sparsely"
 >>into a material density such as square inches of material per
 >>square yard of ground? I can't.

 >Marcel's estimate was 3/4 of a mile by about 250 ft wide. It is
 >true the estimates will vary among witnesses.

 >Mac Brazel: The debris field was 3/4 of a mile long and 300 feet
 >wide. It was oriented in a northwest to southeast direction.
 >There was a gouge in the northwest side of the debris field that
 >was 500 feet long and 10 feet wide. The debris on the field
 >mostly consisted of I-beams and parchment like, paper thin
 >pieces of metal material.

Bill,

Where does this come from?  I thought only Marcel Jr reported "I-beams."


 >The material was very light in weight,
 >a dull gray in color, and most pieces were 6 to 7 inches in
 >length. Some pieces that were even thinner than paper could not
 >be broken in half, cut or burnt. Mac Brazel collected several
 >pieces of the debris and went back to his ranch. So we have
 >varying statements, the I-beams and thin pieces of metal vs
 >rubber. If there was burnt neoprene balloon material, then why
 >didn't Marcel easily identify it as a balloon? If the debris was
 >strewn by a balloon, what made the gouge?

 >>The main reason this is ridiculous is because of the human
 >>tendency to simplify complex situations. If one or two foil
 >>pieces were found 1,000 feet away or 4,000 feet away does that
 >>make the _entire_ debris field 1,000 or 4,000 feet in size? How
 >>many pieces does it take to make a "debris field" Bill? What if
 >>the wind blew a few pieces 1,000 feet or more right while you're
 >>standing there trying to make sense of the more immediate
 >>collection of dozens or hundreds of pieces closer at hand. Does
 >>that mean the debris field is considered 1,000+ feet in size or
 >>what???? Didn't Brazel collect some of the debris and stash it
 >>till he came back with Marcel, and if so, how does that removal
 >>affect the area of the debris field after he returned? Can you
 >>tell me whether your answer today in 2001 would even apply or be
 >>understood by _any_ of the witnesses back in 1947 on site trying
 >>to make sense of it???

 >It's not ridiculous. It is just an estimate. Even if we estimate
 >the debris field to be a mere 250 ft long parabolic spread it
 >would require 10 of the rawin targets.

No it wouldn't.  See my posting at the following link, I don't
want to repeat myself:

http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/2001/aug/m16-011.shtml

The 250' long parabolic
 >spread might be around 40,000 sq. ft (a square would be 62,500
 >sq. ft.) and the laminated targets would comprise 540 sq. ft. of
 >material so that an estimated density for the targets would be
 >little more than 1% of the spreaded area. That is sparse
 >alright, but if the debris field was closer to the larger
 >estimate, then we would need far more rawins to account for the
 >6" pieces. Oh, and where are these 6-7" pieces in the photos?

 >>Every person might have a different notion of what constitutes a
 >>"debris field" and some might not even think of articulating or
 >>formulating such a concept in the first place - why should
 >>they? Are ranchers supposed to be aircraft accident
 >>investigators??? Was Marcel even an accident investigator?
 >>You're pushing far beyond the resaonable limits of witness
 >>perception and comprehension here. Some witnesses might think
 >>the only thing relevant is what was at their feet, maybe a few
 >>dozen yards across. Some might think it's the densest collection
 >>that they can see, ignoring all the rest that are scattered as
 >>being deemed insignificant. Some might ignore the sun-browned
 >>rubber fragments from the 23 balloons in the Mogul Flight 4
 >>array because they'd blend in more with the brown background and
 >>be harder to spot than the eye-catching, sun-glinting shiny foil
 >>pieces. Some might have tried to be more careful and consider
 >>all of the unusual material they saw. Some might have
 >>misunderstood the questions put to them or the questions might
 >>have been narrower or broader than they realized. Some might not
 >>be very good at estimating distances. Some might simply not have
 >>walked as far around as others.

 >It gets pretty foggy at this point doesn't it? If any of the
 >testimony about the unusual properties of the metal are correct,
 >then rawin foil it is not.


You're confusing properties with area - two different things.

Brad








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   Aug > Aug 17

                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 17:16:15 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 16:12:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Sparks


 >Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 23:20:28 -0400
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 21:52:59 EDT
 >>Subject: Ramey's Debris [was: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell']
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 15:43:36 -0700

 ><snip>

 >>To sum up: The Roswell witnesses describe Mogul-like debris
 >>except for foil-cloth, a 2-foot section of a thin slightly
 >>curved sheet metal, and a discrepancy in the width of the tape
 >>used. The Ramey photos show a clean set of tattered Mogul-like
 >>remains lacking any dirty raindrop pockmarks or any dirt at all,
 >>as if the material was substituted perhaps to make a 'good show'
 >>for the news media, except that no flower designs are visible on
 >>the tape. The Roswell witness evidence suggests a Mogul balloon
 >>array in the field was mixed with some other debris, either by
 >>human agency, deliberately or unintentionally, or as a result of
 >>the anomaly/explosion event.>

 >Hmmmm..... I've got it!

 >The flying scaucer became entangled in the Mogul balloon train
 >and then the outer hull exploded with the curved metal/cloth
 >pieces dragging the the Mogul balloon train to the ground where
 >disk and Mogul randomly intermixed. No _wonder_ Marcel was
 >_confused_ and Cavitt could get away claiming he saw wrekage of
 >a weather balloon.

 >Hahahahaha


 >(The rain in Spain falls mainly in my brain.)
 >(By George, I think he's got it!)


Bruce,

Maybe you can stop belly-laughing long enough to consider that
UFOs have long made experimental balloon launches as well as
rocket launches a target of attention, as witness numerous
incidents reported by General Mills Skyhook project team
members, including incidents at White Sands and elsewhere.  I
recall there was a balloon incident where it was claimed that a
large hole was found in the balloon after the UFO encounter
(1951?  Jan Aldrich knows the details).

Brad









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   Aug > Aug 17

                     Re: Roswell Debris Field - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 17:39:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:35:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell Debris Field - Maccabee


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: 16 Aug 2001 06:10:44 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Brazel & Roswell Debris [was: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell']


 >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 06:22:55 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >>You know better than this. No witness to the debris field ever
 >>specified - or could ever be reliable enough to specify - the
 >>density of debris fragments constituting this field, especially
 >>from memory 30-50 years later. I notice you don't mention
 >>Brazel's contemporaneous July 8, 1947, estimate of the size of
 >>the debris field of _rubber_ as about "two hundred yards" (600
 >>feet) - almost exactly the size of a 657-foot Mogul balloon
 >>train of 23 rubber balloons. (Roswell Daily Record, July 9,
 >>1947) Nor do you mention Bessie Brazel's 300-foot estimate
 >>("about the size of a football field"). She said the debris was
 >>"scattered sparsely" and that the wind might have blown it
 >>farther than that. (Pflock p. 277) Can you translate "sparsely"
 >>into a material density such as square inches of material per
 >>square yard of ground? I can't.

 >Marcel's estimate was 3/4 of a mile by about 250 ft wide. It is
 >true the estimates will vary among witnesses.

 >Mac Brazel: The debris field was 3/4 of a mile long and 300 feet
 >wide. It was oriented in a northwest to southeast direction.
 >There was a gouge in the northwest side of the debris field that
 >was 500 feet long and 10 feet wide. The debris on the field
 >mostly consisted of I-beams and parchment like, paper thin
 >pieces of metal material. The material was very light in weight,
 >a dull gray in color, and most pieces were 6 to 7 inches in
 >length. Some pieces that were even thinner than paper could not
 >be broken in half, cut or burnt. Mac Brazel collected several
 >pieces of the debris and went back to his ranch. So we have
 >>rubber. If there was burnt neoprene balloon material, then why
 >>didn't Marcel easily identify it as a balloon? If the debris was
 >strewn by a balloon, what made the gouge?

 >>The main reason this is ridiculous is because of the human
 >>tendency to simplify complex situations. If one or two foil
 >>pieces were found 1,000 feet away or 4,000 feet away does that
 >>make the _entire_ debris field 1,000 or 4,000 feet in size? How
 >>many pieces does it take to make a "debris field" Bill? What if
 >>the wind blew a few pieces 1,000 feet or more right while you're
 >>standing there trying to make sense of the more immediate
 >>collection of dozens or hundreds of pieces closer at hand. Does
 >>that mean the debris field is considered 1,000+ feet in size or
 >>what???? Didn't Brazel collect some of the debris and stash it
 >>till he came back with Marcel, and if so, how does that removal
 >>affect the area of the debris field after he returned? Can you
 >>tell me whether your answer today in 2001 would even apply or be
 >>understood by _any_ of the witnesses back in 1947 on site trying
 >>to make sense of it???

 >It's not ridiculous. It is just an estimate. Even if we estimate
 >the debris field to be a mere 250 ft long parabolic spread it
 >would require 10 of the rawin targets. The 250' long parabolic
 >spread might be around 40,000 sq. ft (a square would be 62,500
 >sq. ft.) and the laminated targets would comprise 540 sq. ft. of
 >material so that an estimated density for the targets would be
 >little more than 1% of the spreaded area. That is sparse
 >alright, but if the debris field was closer to the larger
 >estimate, then we would need far more rawins to account for the
 >6" pieces. Oh, and where are these 6-7" pieces in the photos?>

<snip>

 >>You're pushing far beyond the resaonable limits of witness
 >>perception and comprehension here. Some witnesses might think
 >>the only thing relevant is what was at their feet, maybe a few
 >>dozen yards across. Some might think it's the densest collection
 >>that they can see, ignoring all the rest that are scattered as
 >>being deemed insignificant. Some might ignore the sun-browned
 >>rubber fragments from the 23 balloons in the Mogul Flight 4
 >>array because they'd blend in more with the brown background and
 >>be harder to spot than the eye-catching, sun-glinting shiny foil
 >>pieces. Some might have tried to be more careful and consider
 >>all of the unusual material they saw. Some might have
 >>misunderstood the questions put to them or the questions might
 >>have been narrower or broader than they realized. Some might not
 >>be very good at estimating distances. Some might simply not have
 >>walked as far around as others.

 >It gets pretty foggy at this point doesn't it? If any of the
 >testimony about the unusual properties of the metal are correct,
 >then rawin foil it is not.

Before everyone gets tightly wrapped around a spindle while
trying to fathom the 'areal density' of scraps of material that
wuld be nessary to legitimately say a field of debris was a
certain size, let us not forget that there is _another_ clue as
to the amount of material, namely _volume_!.

As I recall, Marcell claimed he filled two vehicles with the
material. He drove one and Cavitt the other. Then more military
were sent to 'vacuum the desert' to get the rest of the
material.

Now, how much volume is there to a Mogul balloon array if you try
to pack it into a car? (see also Cavitt's 'testimony' at:

http://brumac.8k.com

Cavitt Emptor!)

And, incidently, what happened to all the cords/ropes/strings
that tied the Mogul together? Did all the ropes blow away
leaving the less dense/lighter weight paper-backed aluminum foil
and sun-baked (fragile?) balloon material?

Another thing.....

Brazel's son claimed that weeks after the event he was talking
about it in a bar and mentioned that he had found some more
material and stored it in a shoe box. Subsequently the 'Men In
Black' (military) showed up for the shoe box. And they weren't
looking for shoes!









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   Aug > Aug 17

                      Re: Turkish Pilots & UFO - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 18:00:38 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:37:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Turkish Pilots & UFO - Sparks


 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: Hakan Konac" <konac@ada.net.tr>
 >>Subject: Turkish Pilots & UFO
 >>Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 09:31:23 GMT

 >>Enjoy the below info.

 >>Hakan

 >>Name of Turkish Air Force Pilot: Second Lieutenant Ilker Dincer
 >>Name of Second Turkish Air Force Pilot: n.a.
 >>Type of the aircraft: T-37 Training Jet (122nd Squadron)
 >>Date: 6 August 2001
 >>Time: 12:30 hours Turkish time
 >>Place: Izmir, Candarli, Turkey
 >>Duration of Encounter: 30 minutes

 >>Dincer: "We are facing an unusual situation. We see an object
 >>    shaped like a cross between a cone and a disc, with
 >>    support legs, extremely luminous and high speed".

What "high speed"? Where was the T-37 headed? Where was it
located exactly? What altitude? Where was the UFO located in the
sky by angle? Altitude? Distance?

 >>Dincer reports the incident both to the Ground Control and to the
 >>Combat Operations Center (COC) and asks for radar confirmation.

 >>COC:  "Negative. We detect a high rate of maneuvering in your
 >>    aircraft but no detection of a second object around."

What was the speed of this supposed "high rate of maneuvering"?

 >>Dincer moves the T-37 closer towards the object and according to
 >>Dincer, the object also moves closer towards the T-37.

No details, no estimated distances, no directions/headings, no
times. Nothing.

 >>Dincer: "The object is now coming closer to my wings, now it’s
 >>    behind us, I’ll get it in front of myself, now it’s in
 >>    front of us, hey this is certainly going for a dog fight
 >>    with us".

No estimated distances, no headings or directions, no locations,
no times, no details.

 >>The object gyrated around the T-37 for about a half hour. The
 >>object and the T-37 maneuvered around each other during the
 >>encounter until the object disappeared at an incredibly high
 >>speed.

No estimated distances, no haedings, no directions, no
locations, no altitudes, no deatils.

 >>The incident is under investigation by the Turkish Air Force and
 >>there is a great deal of concern and shock among the Air Force
 >>officials.

 >>The incident will be reported to the relevant international
 >>institutions, especially NASA.

It sounds very suspicious to me, the extreme lack of any detail
except what would sound exciting to a UFO nut.










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                      E-SKEPTIC: Politically Incorrect

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 18:40:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:43:03 -0400
Subject: E-SKEPTIC: Politically Incorrect


E-SKEPTIC: Politically Incorrect on UFOs, cloning and Global
Warming


E-SKEPTIC FOR AUGUST 16, 2001
Copyright 2001 Michael Shermer, Skeptics Society, Skeptic magazine,

POLITICALLY INCORRECT

First of all, allow me to apologize for not posting an e-Skeptic
for over a month. I've been traveling to conferences and taking
a much-needed family vacation on Lake Powell where I discovered
a new meme--wake board skiing--that, like its counterpart on the
snow in snowboards, have almost entirely displaced skiis. The
learning curve is shorter (third time was a charm), but the
crashes are spectacularly more painful.

I wanted to give everyone a heads up on an episode of
Politically Incorrect that I am taping this afternoon that will
run either tonight or tomorrow night, with myself, Marion Ross
("Mrs. Cunningham" from Happy Days), Kevin Nealon (Saturday
Night Live), and Whitley Strieber, who has a new book out
claiming startling new evidence for alien contact. I flipped
through the book at a bookstore recently. It was the same ol'
three categories of evi- dence the UFOlogists have always
offered: blurry photographs, grainy videos, and lots and lots of
anecdotes about things that go bump in the night in the bedroom
and in Farmer Bob's field in Puckerbrush, Kansas.

Other subjects to cover in our 22 minutes are cloning and global
warming.  With this panel of genetic and climate experts I'm
sure we'll properly debate these momentous subjects. Should be
fun.


Michael Shermer












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                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:45:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:57:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris


 >Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 16:54:11 +0100
 >From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris

<snip>

 >And you also have to take into account Mack Brazel was quite
 >familiar with neoprene weather balloons he'd picked them up on
 >the ranch previously.

<snip>

Neil,

No, we don't have to take into account the fact that Brazel was
"quite familiar with neoprene weather balloons" as "he'd picked
them up on the ranch previously."

Don't care if Brazel is quoted as saying same, don't care if
someone else is quoted as saying same. Whoever said it was
wrong, period.

Just consider the odds. What was there about the Foster ranch
that made it an attraction for weather balloons, so much so that
Brazel would have been "familiar" with same?

Ranches (and the real world) just don't work that way. If a
neoprene weather balloon had previously landed on the Foster
ranch, Brazel's chances of having encountered the remains of
same would have been on the order of one in a million or more.
His chances of encountering a second weather balloon would have
been even more miniscule.

Metaphorically speaking, of course.

Still, this is the sort of statement that some people can accept
even when it flies in the face of local, ground-zero logic.

I defy anyone to find a rancher who is "quite familiar
with...weather balloons," now or then, having found them popping
up like daisies on their land.

Any such balloons would have had to have landed in Brazel's
front yard for him to have encountered same. That he would have
stumbled across enough downed weather balloons to have
familiarized himself with same is patently absurd. Ain't gonna
happen that way.

And before you ask: yes, our family's got a ranch.

But ol' Brazel, he jes' wanderin' round. Oops, there be a
weather balloon. Dang, there's another one! And a third! Now I
know what they look like, won't be fooled again, even if them
other suckers didn't have radar reflectors.

I'm sorry, but it's extremely unlikely that Brazel would have
been familiar with downed weather balloons, whoever testified to
same.

Dennis Stacy









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                      Darn You Streiber - You Did Good

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 00:28:59 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:04:20 -0400
Subject: Darn You Streiber - You Did Good


You really did.


I expected Whitley to be creamed by Bill Mahr and the other
guests, especially Shermer. Well, I and those of you who thought
so as well, were wrong. Even Mahr was positively inclined and
serious over the prospects of the "possibility" of the phenom.

And I would like to be the first to say that Shermer was the
only person on that panel who looked like an idiot. It was
blatantly obvious that he was determined to make Streiber look
bad. Had his little speeches memorized. All prepared.

I would place a moniker on Mr. Shermer? The Shermer Smirk.
Patently came to the show loaded for Streiber and overconfident.

Didn't work.

My congratulations to you, Whitley if you are watching. You did
good for all of us. Thank you, Sir. From the bottom of my
bleeding and probed body parts... Thank You Sir.


Jim Mortellaro








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                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 02:11:47 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:07:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Gates


 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 22:12:23 -0500

 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:13:39 -0300

 ><snip>

 >>As noted in the last portion of the RDR [Roswell Daily Record]
 >>article for July 9 (which is the basis for all the Mogul balloon
 >>nonsense), Brazel was sure it wasn't a weather balloon.

 >>He had found them before.


 >Stan,

 >Think about what you're saying here.

 >Are you suggesting that single weather balloons were raining
 >down on the Foster ranch to the extent that Brazel had come
 >across several others before encountering whatever it was that
 >he took into Roswell? That he was _familiar_ with same?

 >Gadzooks, man, what is the likelihood of _that_?

 >But, if true, doesn't this suggest that the Foster ranch was in
 >the "flight path" of balloon operations? Or was Brazel just
 >lucky enough to have stumbled across one or two prior to his
 >third encounter?

Years ago I could go to an area where you could find Radiosonde
instrument packages, some of them old, some of them new. Also
saw remnants of balloons.

At the time I asked the weather people about that and they said
that depending on where the "common" wind pattern was and the
launch site you could stumble into an area with the instrument
packages and balloon debris. In my case I happened to stumble
into the area and find the balloon material. Over the years I
had gone back to that area in Nevada and found even more.

I always regarded myself as lucky and fortunate to have stumbled
into the area. Many people don't know, nor do they have any
clue.

Even though I am not a 'weather balloon' expert of any kind I
could tell the difference between balloon material and debris
found at aircraft crash sites... there is a large difference.


Cheers,

Robert









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                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 02:20:12 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:09:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Gates


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 23:32:38 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com


 >>Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 10:58:08 +0100
 >>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:07:59 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>>I think that Ed reveals his lack of reliability as a photo
 >>>interpreter by not noticing the resemblance. His fascination
 >>>with the phony Alien Autopsy film doesn't add much confidence,
 >>>either.

 >>Ed didn't find the connection, I did. It _is_ curious, but the
 >>fact is 4 symbol shapes identified in sequence on the same
 >>single beam section from the AA "debris footage" happen to match
 >>closely, symbol shapes seen in the Fort Worth Photographs,
 >>the number of matches I find more than just coincidence.

 >Well, if one was going to fake the AA film, and was interested
 >enough in details to include something which looked like the
 >long- published picture from Fort Worth, then maybe thay were
 >careful enough to include details.

Agreed!

 ><snip>

 >>Jesse Marcel's site description works out at aprox 777,500 sqft

 >I wonder how Marcel got 777,500 square feet of anything in the
 >trunk of his little old car?

I don't think anybody has ever claimed that Marcel put _all_ of
the debris in his car. Apparently he just took _some_ of it back
to base and stopped by his house.

 >>That dubious interview with Mack Brazel in the RDR of the 9th
 >>July quotes Mack as saying the site was 200 yards across that's
 >>aprox 282,700 sqft. _If_ Charles Moore's MOGUL _did_ have 3
 >>ML307 reflectors and _if_ it did crash on the Foster Ranch it
 >>would only have

 >>_54_ sq ft of foil. (90 sq ft if it had 5 ML307's attached)

 >>To cover the above two site descriptions with 34 sqft of foil
 >>that's

 >>0.0275 sq INCHES per sq ft for Mack's size

 >>and

 >>0.01 sq INCHES per sq ft for Jesse Marcel's size of debris field

 >>And that is a _mighty_ thin spread _just_ to provide a uniform
 >>background cover.

 >>To provide a _noticable_ say 10% coverage of the above 2 areas
 >>you would need aprox one tenth of each of the area's ie over
 >>70,000 and 28,000 square _feet_ of foil in each case.
 >
 >What makes 10% coverage necessary to notice some shiny debris
 >laying out on the desert? There is a mighty big assumption
 >being made here.

 >Did Brazel ever say that the area was covered to this density?

For all anybody knows the so called debris could have been hip
deep, or it may have been sprinkled along the ground. I don't
recall that this was ever established.

 >>But even if it did have ML307's the numbers don't really add up
 >>do they?

 >No, they don't and they sure don't add up to what was collected,
 >according to the witnesses and the only known pictures. I
 >suggest that these huge numbers are strictly in the imaginations
 >of believers who are building castles in the air.

But then again the _assumption_ is made that all the debris
recovered was both talked about and in the fort worth photos. As
I recall General Dubois said their was two sites and the weather
balloon was a cover story. Point being is that for the skeptics
to be able to deal with the General's and other's testimony, we
instantly have to find some way of discrediting the witness,
otherwise the imaginations may be solid.


Cheers,

Robert








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                      Streiber On Politically Incorrect

From: Steve Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 02:20:13 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:12:14 -0400
Subject: Streiber On Politically Incorrect


Whitley Streiber's appearance on Politically Incorrect tonight,
August 16.

Watching Dr. Michael Shermer do his usual shtick, it occurred to
me that professional skeptics are like the water used in nuclear
reactors to contain and control the fuel rods.

They serve the government agenda and a lazy news media by
suffusing the powerful UFO/ET research with smarmy, unctuous,
pretentious, arrogant smugness in and effort to contain the work
and slow the impact.

With disclosure this smugness will drain away and the intense
heat of revelation will turn these skeptic's legacy to ash.

Steve Bassett








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   Aug > Aug 17

                        MOD Rendlesham File Released

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:16:46 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:14:26 -0400
Subject: MOD Rendlesham File Released


THE RENDLESHAM FILE

History in the making: British Government release UFO file on
Britain�s Most Famous UFO Incident

The official view is that no one at higher levels in the Air
Force or government took the Rendlesham sightings at all
seriously at the time � and this book is not going to change the
official views, despite what Bruni may hope.  Ian Ridpath,
Review of �You Can�t Tell The People, The Skeptic, Volume 14 No
1.

The Rendlesham Forest incident, involving members of the USAF
stationed at the twin RAF bases Bentwaters and Woodbridge in
Suffolk, England, is Britain�s most famous UFO case. Hard
evidence to support that an incident did take place on the
perimeter of RAF Woodbridge is now well documented. This
includes an official USAF memorandum authored Deputy Base
Commander, Lt Colonel Halt, his tape recording of the incident
and more recently official USAF photographs taken of the landing
site. But still the sceptics hang on to the theory that the UFO
was nothing more than the beam from the local lighthouse.

Since January 2001, Admiral of the Fleet The Lord Hill Norton,
has put a staggering 16 Questions to the House of Lords relating
to the case as presented in my book _You Can't Tell The People_.
As a result of these Questions and pressure put on Parliament
and the Ministry of Defence to release information on this case,
Lord Hill Norton and myself are now in possession of the
Ministry of Defence�s Rendlesham Forest file.

For twenty one years the Ministry of Defence has claimed that
the only report in their file, was Colonel Halt�s memorandum,
that the incident was of no defence significance and that no
UFO�s were tracked on radar.

What does the file reveal?

1.Vital evidence, which backs up my book and proves that in
spite of what the sceptics believe, those at higher levels in
the Air Force and government did take the Rendlesham Forest
incident seriously enough to begin an investigation.

2.That the Americans retrieved vital evidence that was not
shared with Britain�s Ministry of Defence.

3.That several departments in the Ministry of Defence and RAF
were involved in an investigation, including Defence
Intelligence Staff.

4.That problems arose with equipment at RAF Watton Eastern Radar
during the incident.

5.That Defence Intelligence Staff considered the radiation
readings to be significantly higher than normal (by a factor of
about ten).

6.That the USAF did carry out an investigation.

7.That the Ministry of Defence considered sanitising Colonel
Halt�s memorandum prior to its release due to concern over
intelligence and national security matters.

And much more�

Nick Pope: These revelations are sensational, and I�m sure there
will be pressure for an inquiry into both the incident itself
and the subsequent actions of both the MOD and the USAF.

Full Story in UFO Magazine (UK) on Sale 30 August 2001 Includes
feedback from senior Air Force Staff

Order your copy from www.ufomag.co.uk  Tel: 0870 7575836

I will be doing a full presentation of the facts, an update and
further comments from witnesses and those involved, at the
International Leeds Conference on 22 September 2001.

Georgina Bruni

"You Can't Tell The People". The Definitive Account of the
Rendlesham Forest UFO Mystery by Georgina Bruni.
Published by Sidgwick & Jackson
Available on-line at: www.amazon.co.uk and all good bookshops







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             Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:53:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:19:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure - Velez


 >Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 10:29:57 -0700
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure

 >[Non-Subscriber Post]

 >Dear Mr. Velez and others:

 >>Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 17:29:51 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure

 >>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure
 >>>Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 07:30:40 -0500

 >>>As regards our striker. In the first place we are talking about
 >>>a grown woman here that has rationally demonstrated some
 >>>egalitarian sense and rational seriousness in the past, a
 >>>cursory look seems to show. Allusions to "bonkers" might be a
 >>>little premature, needlessly distracting, and an otherwise
 >>>inaccurate splash of well meaning, but point-missing, paint...

 >>Misinterpretation Al. I was referring to those who were egging
 >>her on not to Lara.

Hi Lara, hi All,

You wrote:

 >To, anyone concerned about my health, my request would be
 >contact your senator or congressman, and ask them if the
 >President got my letter. And if he has, what he is going to
 >do about it. I mean if you are really concerned. If not - that
 >is okay. ;-)

I have been at this UFO business trying to raise public
awareness and writing letters to my congressmen and women for
many years. In fact, I have been one of the most active and
vocal activists to come down the pike in many a moon.  :)

Don't misread me. My concern for your health is genuine and not
scientifically unfounded. There are many ways to approach this
UFO disclosure problem -without- jeopardizing or compromising
anybody's health or well being. You have adopted a course of
action that is extreme and potentially dangerous to you
personally. Because of its potential to harm you, I cannot in
good conscience support your action. I do however support the
'cause' and I have done so for quite some time now.

 >I guess I may have higher expectations from my President (Mbeki
 >and Mandela), since every single time I have written them a
 >letter, even if from another country, I have gotten a response.
 >I have never had to go on a hunger strike to get thier
 >attention. ;-) Twice my letter was both forwarded to the
 >relevant department were somebody was ordered to get back to me
 >with relevant information. For a Third World country going down
 >the hill (thanks the World Bank etc, etc.) I consider that the
 >way any Presidents office, who is interested in _serving_ his/her
 >country can do.

 >My suggestions to anyone with extra energy or charge on this
 >issue - would be this:

 >Make a copy of my letter to President Bush, and write a letter
 >similar to mine to your congressperson - see both at:

 >www.amandla.org/ufo/

 >then take it to your Congress person and ask them
 >for a response. You want a personal response regarding the
 >Presidents response to me! When we come at them from all sides!
 >And when we put directly daily or weekly visits to our congress
 >persons - the pressure will be on. My congresswoman is working
 >very hard at it! I think she deserves a bit of help! Let us make
 >those halls of Congress sing with '*&^% the people want some
 >answers'! There are a few brave souls in there - who if they
 >know the people support them, would rise to the occassion. We
 >need to give them some courage!;-)

Lara, Mr. Mandela and George W. Bush are two different people
from (literally) two different 'worlds.' It is naivete on your
part to think, or to expect, a "formal" response from the likes
of president Bush. You should know that it has been a long
standing US policy _not_ to respond to 'hunger strikes' and the
like, (for any purpose) or to pressure, especially when it is
being applied by a solitary individual or statistically small
group. They will let you wither and die before they even
acknowledge you. I know this sounds terribly cynical to you, but
it is the reality of the situation.

 >>My first remark about her was that she
 >>"seemed to be" a sincere person. I am also not questioning her
 >>'cause'. It is her 'methods' that I think are a bit extreme. See
 >>next response.

 >I agree, and I also think the situation is way _beyond_ extreme,
 >and anyone who hasn't noticed that, may think there is precious
 >much more time! I on the contrary am not so sure, and don't see
 >why I should wait till I am 60 (which I doubt I'll get to see
 >with Colombian Vietnam on the way, chemtrails, toxic food,
 >depopulations, viruses like AIDS and who knows what else?) to
 >find out about travelling and visiting more enlightened beings
 >from out of space! It has got to stop!

That's a big mouthful of assumptions Lara. Things like how much
"time" we have, and "travelling to other worlds," not to mention
your assumption that the visitors are "more enlightened beings"
than we are is 'jumping the gun' more than just a little bit.

As far as the "Columbian Vietnam" is concerned you lost me there.

No one, and I mean no one, knows if any of the above is true or
even applies. Taking risks with your health for these kinds of
unfounded assumptions is simply not justified. Expecting that
George Bush will formally respond to "pressure" and your hunger
strike is, as I have already stated, just plain naive. It is
-your- life Lara to do with as you wish. Speaking as someone who
has been around the block a few times, I am only trying to
counsel you that there are "other ways" to go about this that
don't involve the risks or personal sacrifice that you have
taken on.

You are also applying pressure to the wrong point/person. The
"pressure" needs to be applied directly to our elected officials
in Congress. It is they who make the laws and who decide which
issues will be given public hearings. Not George Bush.

 >And this is the first time we have 450 direct insider witnesses
 >who are prepared to testify! As well as a President who promised
 >to tell the truth! That to me is a gift from God! And I will do
 >whatever I can to support these men at this critical time! ;-)
 >We can all benefit from some disclosure, in physical, emotional,
 >psychological and so many other ways.... ;-)

Your idealism blinds you to the reality of the situation.

Alfred wrote:

 >>>An intelligent fast is actually a healthy thing, to a point;
 >>>John likely knows that. There is no _mal_ nutrition in a healthy
 >>>fast, there is only an 'under' nutrition that most people in the
 >>>western hemisphere could have a couple of helpings of anyway...
 >>>I've got a whole paper in the spring-loaded, ready to go
 >>>position, so we can dicker that point if you want to.

I responded:

 >>No "dickering" at all. And yes, having studied and practiced
 >>contemplative as well as certain physical forms of Yoga (all of
 >>my adult life) I am familiar with, and have performed many
 >>healthy, cleansing fasts. Many of which are intended to last for
 >>only three to five days. Juice Fasts can go as long as a month
 >>without jeopardizing health. The point I was trying to make was
 >>that this fast that Lara is engaged in (due to its political
 >>nature) has no preset terminus. She intends to persist until
 >>George Dubya responds.

Lara responds:

 >Exactly! ;-) So, lets get dubya to respond. After all he works
 >for _you_! He is your employee as such! ;-) I know it is a
 >little simplistic, but that is really what he is. And he is an
 >employee who has through tiime forced his employer to pay him
 >yearly taxes, which he squanders and uses to kill, and he has
 >used his employers money to limit his employers rights and
 >freedoms! I think such an employee either gets a kick under the
 >butt, or is fired! But if we allow this to be done to us, it is
 >only our fault! ;-)

All true but as you say yourself, "simplistic." Way too
simplistic given the existing realities.

 >I intend to persist until he responds, and I think he better
 >know that! I would suggest and appreciate your energy directed
 >at the problem of a president who makes agreements and does not
 >keep them! I will gladly go away or stop my fast (and have some
 >coffee gelato in heavenly bliss) if he directly responds!

I already stated my 'opinion' to Alfred on this one. I wrote:

 >>Between you, me, and the wall, that just ain't gonna happen.

 >what a sad thing to say about your President, and also that you
 >are not driven to do anything about such a situation.

It _is_ a sad thing, but true nonetheless. And you "assume" that
I haven't been "driven to do anything" about it. I have
dedicated _seven years_ of my life to "doing something" about
it. Get to know me better before making such statements.

 >>So, what are we looking at? An extended fast that can only have
 >>deleterious effects (even on someone who fasts regularly) if it
 >>should approach or go beyond the thirty day range and a dolt of
 >>a President whose concern for humanity is second only to
 >>Goering. (Refer to Dubya's responses when asked about reprieves
 >>for death row inmates during his terms as Governer of Texas.
 >>This guy is no humanitarian!)

 >Exactly! However, he does like to think of himself as a southern
 >man who honors agreements! Well, he made one with the american
 >people (huffer's question) and I want him to keep it!

Yeah well, there's "ways" and then there's "ways" to get that
done Lara. Risking your personal health and continued well being
is not one of the more viable or acceptable ones. (to me
personally.)

 >>All that his tiny brain is capable of handling is keeping track
 >>of his golf scores as he makes the rounds of his favorite
 >>courses. (And I'll bet the farm that his caddy handles all the
 >>complicated math for him!) Lara and anybody else who thinks Bush
 >>is going to respond to a Hunger Strike For UFO Disclosure is
 >>simply deluding themselves big-time. This fast of hers could go
 >>much, much longer than her 'supporters' suspect.

 >We shall see Mr. Velez.

Yes we shall. What I dread is the "price" that may be paid in
order for us to "see." And, it is _you_ who will be paying it.
It's unnecessary for you to take such an extreme action in an
attempt to force the hand of a man like George Bush. The
'windmill' you are attacking is made of stone. Your lance will
break on contact.

 >>Ergo, my concern for Lara's health and continued well-being.

 >Mr. Velez, I appreciate you for your concern - again - for my
 >well-being.

I don't think you do Lara. You have set yourself on a course of
action that can only do you more harm in the end than any good
it will accomplish in the world of US politics. You need to
rally large numbers of people to petition congress. Not slowly
starve yourself to death to _force_ it to happen. Win people
over with intelligence and logic, don't try to 'force' their
hand by setting ultimatums.

 >The truth I want from Mr. Bush is also a truth if
 >revealed may alter the state of world affairs. I would gladly
 >put my white, healthy body at a bit of risk,

You already have.  :(

 >I would appreciate your help in whichever way you deem fit,

You have just gotten it.

 >and I imagine we will get more done if we keep our focus on him! ;-)

That is where we disagree. Bush is the wrong 'target.'
_Congress_ is the place to put the pressure. And _not_ by
risking your health!

 >>I never said she didn't have
 >>a right to do it, and I didn't question that right. Nor was I
 >>calling _her_ bonkers. That was meant for the crowd gathered
 >>under the parapet she is standing on yelling, "Jump, jump!"

 >Thank you! ;-) I 'jumped' many years ago, when I heard the
 >testimony of witnesses in the Truth and Reconciliation Hearings
 >in South Africa. When I heard the truth about all the secrets of
 >oppression, torture and degradation of the human soul. My soul
 >wept and wept. I had known something was going on, but not what.
 >I had believed the lies I was told, or at least did not demand
 >their truth. I promised myself - _never_ again! If someone was
 >willing to stand up and tell the truth, I would support that
 >person!

So would I Lara. But _not_ if that person was risking their own
health or life to do it. My ethics are very Buddhist that way.

 >Also my own growth in learning to be honest with myself has led
 >me to much healing of things I previously denied, but had
 >constant pain and insecurity about. I no longer have any of
 >that, just love, and a willingness to share with others taht 'it
 >doesn't have to be this way' - we can live with truth, with
 >integrity to ourselves and our fellow plants, animals and beings
 >from wherever. ;-)

You are very noble, caring, and idealistic person Lara. I hope
that those same qualities do not bring you to personal harm
because your fervor to -force the issue- blinds you to certain
realities.

My best wishes for you, and best of luck in all your endeavors.


Most sincerely,

John Velez








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   Aug > Aug 17

                             Re: Daniel Sheehan?

From: Gary Anthony <garyant@mithrand.karoo.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 21:13:21 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:20:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Daniel Sheehan?


Hi List,

Does anyone know if Daniel Sheehan has email? Or how I can
contact him?


Best regards,

Gary Anthony








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                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Murray

From: Marty Murray <mmurray31@home.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 16:16:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:23:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Murray


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 17:48:25 -0300

 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >>Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 22:12:23 -0500

 >>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:13:39 -0300

 >><snip>

 >>>As noted in the last portion of the RDR [Roswell Daily Record]
 >>>article for July 9 (which is the basis for all the Mogul balloon
 >>>nonsense), Brazel was sure it wasn't a weather balloon.

 >>>He had found them before.

 >>Stan,

 >>Think about what you're saying here.

 >>Are you suggesting that single weather balloons were raining
 >>down on the Foster ranch to the extent that Brazel had come
 >>across several others before encountering whatever it was that
 >>he took into Roswell? That he was _familiar_ with same?

 >>Gadzooks, man, what is the likelihood of _that_?

 >What a strange question. It has been known for more than 20
 >years that Brazel had found at least 2 weather balloons and been
 >paid the rewards offered on the attached notices. (Instrument
 >packages). The Ranch was at least 10,000 acres, not a half acre
 >plot in a city. He had lived there a long time. Many balloons
 >had been launched in New Mexico. It might be more amazing if he
 >hadn't found any.

 >>But, if true, doesn't this suggest that the Foster ranch was in
 >>the "flight path" of balloon operations? Or was Brazel just
 >>lucky enough to have stumbled across one or two prior to his
 >>third encounter?

 >Lucky or unlucky?? He had found balloons he stated unequivocally
 >that what he had found wasn't any weather balloon.

 >>You can't have it both ways, no doubt as much as you would like
 >>to.


Howdy Stanton!

Thanks for remaining the voice of reason, and for sticking to
the facts, in all of this. What was found out on the Brazel
Ranch was NOT a weather balloon or any other kind of balloon.
End of story!


Take care,

Marty









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   Aug > Aug 18

                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 16:46:42 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 01:07:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Sparks


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 17:48:25 -0300

 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >>Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 22:12:23 -0500

 >>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:13:39 -0300

 >><snip>

 >>>As noted in the last portion of the RDR [Roswell Daily Record]
 >>>article for July 9 (which is the basis for all the Mogul balloon
 >>>nonsense), Brazel was sure it wasn't a weather balloon.

 >>>He had found them before.

 >>Stan,

 >>Think about what you're saying here.

 >>Are you suggesting that single weather balloons were raining
 >>down on the Foster ranch to the extent that Brazel had come
 >>across several others before encountering whatever it was that
 >>he took into Roswell? That he was _familiar_ with same?

 >>Gadzooks, man, what is the likelihood of _that_?

 >What a strange question. It has been known for more than 20
 >years that Brazel had found at least 2 weather balloons and been
 >paid the rewards offered on the attached notices. (Instrument
 >packages). The Ranch was at least 10,000 acres, not a half acre
 >plot in a city. He had lived there a long time. Many balloons
 >had been launched in New Mexico. It might be more amazing if he
 >hadn't found any.


Hi Stan, Dennis,

I think it's a reasonable question. But with a little info we
can do some back-of-the-envelope calculations. If the Foster
Ranch was at least 10,000 acres then that is at least 15 square
miles or a diameter of about 5 miles or so.

Weather stations that measure winds/temp/humidity aloft with
radiosondes typically release such balloons once or twice a day
at set times. Alamogordo was probably one such station. I wish
people would publish the weather data for the Roswell incident
time frame so we can know these things and not have to surmise.

That would be 365 or 730 balloons per year just from Alamogordo
alone. Suppose balloons burst and fall within a 100 mile radius
(after catching the jet stream which would preferentially carry
more balloons eastward, northeast and southeast). Northeast
carries you to Foster Ranch at about the 100-mile range. Because
balloons have a standard ascent rate of around 1,000 ft/min and
burst at or below 100,000 feet they are aloft about 2 hours and
the jet stream will carry them about say 100 miles. Again just
very very rough numbers to do a simple calculation instead of
factless numberless worthless speculation.

As you can see there is going to be a preferred landing zone for
Alamogordo weather balloons along an arc of around 100 miles
radius east of the base, stretching from say Carlsbad up through
Roswell and to Corona, when the jet stream is active. (Applies
to Mogul balloons too.)

But let's suppose first the balloons went in _all_ directions
for 100 miles be fore computing the eastern arc landing zone.
The chances of hitting a 15+ sq.mi. Foster Ranch size area in
that case is only 1 in 2,000. So if there were only once a day
balloon launches from Alamogordo (it might have been double that
but let's start conservative), in 6 years there would be 2,190
or so balloons launched and a good chance one would have landed
on the Foster Ranch. But this requires a jet stream to carry
them that far and the jet stream is not operative all year round
in a given location.

Now let's figure the eastern arc from a jet stream and guess it
is active say 1/4 of the year, so maybe 90 daily balloons from
Alamogordo are caught in it or 180 if launched twice daily.
Suppose a 50-mile wide arc about 200 miles long or roughly an
area of 10,000 sq.mi. Chances of hitting the 15+ sq.mi. Foster
Ranch are roughly 1 in 700. So the chances are good that in
about 8 years for daily launches or in 4 years of twice daily
launches, a balloon would come down on the Foster Ranch.

Sounds very plausible given these numbers.


 >>But, if true, doesn't this suggest that the Foster ranch was in
 >>the "flight path" of balloon operations? Or was Brazel just
 >>lucky enough to have stumbled across one or two prior to his
 >>third encounter?

 >Lucky or unlucky?? He had found balloons he stated unequivocally
 >that what he had found wasn't any weather balloon.

 >>You can't have it both ways, no doubt as much as you would like
 >>to.

 >What do you mean both ways?

 >Because he was familiar with weather balloons, he recognized
 >that what he had found wasn't any weather balloon. The sherrif
 >noted it as unusual. Marcel noted it as unusual and not a
 >weather balloon. That is why Blanchard sent Marcel and Cavitt
 >out there to look at the mess of stuff in the pasture.

 >Remember that there is no way a small bundle of stuff would have
 >covered an area even 200 yards in diameter. If all he had found
 >was a weather balloon as liar Cavitt claimed) taking up an area
 >only 20 feet square and easily fitting in to one vehicle, he
 >would have brought it in in his pickup truck and there would
 >have been nothing left behind and no reason for Marcel and
 >Cavitt to trail him out in the boondocks. Remember that Marcel
 >couldn't talk to the press and describe the area he had seen

I don't agree. See my recent post. A Mogul array of about 50
sq.ft. of foil-paper could cover a football field with 300
fragments ranging in size from 3 inches to 2 feet with an
average spacing of 15 feet. Why no one, not one single
eyewitness, not one hearsay witness, describes PAPER-foil
fragments is a mystery Moguloids have yet to explain.


Brad









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   Aug > Aug 18

                Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:34:50 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 01:10:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure -


 >Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 10:29:57 -0700
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure

 >[Non-Subscriber Post]

 >Dear Mr. Velez and others:

 >>Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 17:29:51 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure

 >>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure
 >>>Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 07:30:40 -0500

<snip>

 >And this is the first time we have 450 direct insider witnesses
 >who are prepared to testify! As well as a President who promised
 >to tell the truth! That to me is a gift from God! And I will do
 >whatever I can to support these men at this critical time! ;-)
 >We can all benefit from some disclosure, in physical, emotional,
 >psychological and so many other ways.... ;-)

Lara Error: I believe the number of witnesses (450) I mentioned
is incorrect. The witnesess who have come forward are 99, and
there are many more who have said they will come forward if
hearings occur and they are released from their oaths of secret.



+=============================================+
|  Hungerstrike Requesting President Bush to  |
|   honor his agreement to tell the American  |
|     people the truth, by supporting the     |
|  Disclosure Project witnesses to testify    |
| about their extensive knowledge of UFO's:   |
+---------------------------------------------+
|       Bush/UFO Disclosure Request:          |
|       http://www.amandla.org/ufo/           |
|           Disclosure Project:               |
|     http://www.disclosureproject.org/       |
+=============================================+









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   Aug > Aug 18

                       Re: Ramey's Debris - van Gemert

From: Jean van Gemert <j.vangemert@chello.nl>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 00:15:13 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 01:13:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - van Gemert


 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris
 >Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:45:06 -0500

 >I'm sorry, but it's extremely unlikely that Brazel would have
 >been familiar with downed weather balloons, whoever testified to
 >same.

Dennis,

That's backwards reasoning. Your true train of thought is that
Brazel _has_ to be unfamiliar with weather balloons because the
Roswell debris _must_ be a weather balloon in order to account
for Brazel being truly surprised/dumbfounded at seeing one.
Ergo, he had never seen one before.

You're stuck in a vicious circle, and apparently willing to
dismiss testimony to the contrary with no good reason (if
someone can indeed produce evidence that Brazel had in fact
found weather balloons on his ranch before that is) just because
it's not giving you the answer you're looking for.

And don't get me started on the case you presented above in
favor of the impossibility of Brazel finding weather balloons on
his ranch ("I never saw/found any, so no one else could have
either.." cries Dennis. Double yawn! I'm surprised you've not
fallen off that slippery slope yet, or have you?).


Jean









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                 Re: E-SKEPTIC: Politically Incorrect - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 22:15:29 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 01:22:24 -0400
Subject: Re: E-SKEPTIC: Politically Incorrect - Hall


 >Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 18:40:40 -0400
 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
 >Subject: E-SKEPTIC: Politically Incorrect
 >To: UFO UpDates <UfoUpdates@Home.com>

 >E-SKEPTIC: Politically Incorrect on UFOs, cloning and Global
 >Warming

 >E-SKEPTIC FOR AUGUST 16, 2001
 >Copyright 2001 Michael Shermer, Skeptics Society, Skeptic magazine,

 >POLITICALLY INCORRECT

 >First of all, allow me to apologize for not posting an e-Skeptic
 >for over a month. I've been traveling to conferences and taking
 >a much-needed family vacation on Lake Powell where I discovered
 >a new meme--wake board skiing--that, like its counterpart on the
 >snow in snowboards, have almost entirely displaced skiis. The
 >learning curve is shorter (third time was a charm), but the
 >crashes are spectacularly more painful.

 >I wanted to give everyone a heads up on an episode of
 >Politically Incorrect that I am taping this afternoon that will
 >run either tonight or tomorrow night, with myself, Marion Ross
 >("Mrs. Cunningham" from Happy Days), Kevin Nealon (Saturday
 >Night Live), and Whitley Strieber, who has a new book out
 >claiming startling new evidence for alien contact. I flipped
 >through the book at a bookstore recently. It was the same ol'
 >three categories of evi- dence the UFOlogists have always
 >offered: blurry photographs, grainy videos, and lots and lots of
 >anecdotes about things that go bump in the night in the bedroom
 >and in Farmer Bob's field in Puckerbrush, Kansas.

Michael,

Obviously you haven't read The UFO Evidence, Volume II, or any
other moral equivalent thereof, or you wouldn't be
simple-mindedly characterizing the case for UFOs as you have
done here.

I'll debate you anywhere, anytime, including the egregiously
biased pages of the Skeptical Inquirer. I know you will make
excuses not to accept because you are considerably lacking in
both gonadal and mental resources and are more into bluff and
bluster.


Richard Hall











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                Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:39:25 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 01:25:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure -


 >Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:53:16 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure

 >>Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 10:29:57 -0700
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure

Mr. Velez,

I appreciate and thank you for your comments. ;-)

1. You are correct, I do not know you or what you have done. I
can only talk about now. What I see now, is someone who cares
for my health and wishes me to stop. Thank you. And as you say -
it is my health - and I can do with it what I want. I choose to
do with it to give it up for truth. ;-) Yes that may sound
'naive' or 'extreme' or whichever adjective you wish to use. I
wonder if we put the same energy to requesting people like me to
stop, onto others who are prepared to die for 'country', for
'money', for 'drugs', for 'religion' or whatever for - if we
would have peace! ;-) If we did, maybe there would be no need
for me to put 'my life/health' at risk for truth. We can only
have freedom to solve the problems we have if we are dealing
with the truth, otherwise, we are living in an illusion! ie we
are deluded! (my interpretation! ;-))

I thought long and hard about the issues you have raised -
before I started, and since I started - my hungerstrike. I am
still committed - if not more so! ;-)

RE: Pressure on my congresspersons. I agree. If you notice I
have written a letter to Congresswoman Lee:

http://www.amandla.org/ufo/

I am also in the process of writing to Maya Angelou (my
husband's great-aunt), Bishop Tutu, and Peggy Noonan (whom I
used to work for), asking them to support Congresswoman Lee. I
am visiting her office every day! She is working on it! ;-)

If you feel inclined, I'd request you write a letter to your
congressperson, and you are welcome to attach my letter. Ask
her/him for a personal response to you, regarding the presidents
response to me! ie a copy! ;-) Not too much to ask your
congressperson for - I don't think! (But then I've been told I
am naive! ;-))

Either way, I am okay with us agreeing to disagree. ;-)

And, I hope you will not mind if I keep my focus for now, on my
objective. My president in South Africa, my congresswoman in
CAlifornia, and others whom wish to actively do something to
bring about the changes we wish.

If you have any suggestions, or would like to share what you are
doing. I'd love to hear. If not - that's okay! ;-) We all have
to do what we have to do!

As for being around the block a bit! Sir, if you only knew - I
have lived a life more exiting and fun, joyful and painful than
many. I want that opportunity for every child. It starts with
telling the truth! ;-)

I thank you for listening, and hope you don't mind, if I attempt
to keep my focus. My dialogue with you has helped me to make
things clearer for myself, and I appreciate you for helping me
do that! Thank you,


Sincerely,

Lara Johnstone



+=============================================+
|  Hungerstrike Requesting President Bush to  |
|   honor his agreement to tell the American  |
|     people the truth, by supporting the     |
|  Disclosure Project witnesses to testify    |
| about their extensive knowledge of UFO's:   |
+---------------------------------------------+
|       Bush/UFO Disclosure Request:          |
|       http://www.amandla.org/ufo/           |
|           Disclosure Project:               |
|     http://www.disclosureproject.org/       |
+=============================================+









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               Re: E-SKEPTIC: Politically Incorrect - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 16:19:39 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 01:29:30 -0400
Subject: Re: E-SKEPTIC: Politically Incorrect - Tonnies


 >Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 18:40:40 -0400
 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
 >Subject: E-SKEPTIC: Politically Incorrect
 >To: UFO UpDates <UfoUpdates@Home.com>

<snip>

 >I wanted to give everyone a heads up on an episode of
 >Politically Incorrect that I am taping this afternoon that will
 >run either tonight or tomorrow night, with myself, Marion Ross
 >("Mrs. Cunningham" from Happy Days), Kevin Nealon (Saturday
 >Night Live), and Whitley Strieber, who has a new book out
 >claiming startling new evidence for alien contact. I flipped
 >through the book at a bookstore recently. It was the same ol'
 >three categories of evi- dence the UFOlogists have always
 >offered: blurry photographs, grainy videos, and lots and lots of
 >anecdotes about things that go bump in the night in the bedroom
 >and in Farmer Bob's field in Puckerbrush, Kansas.

I don't like this guy's tone.

Firstly, the book isn't at all "new."

Secondly, he admits to not reading it, but rather having
"flipped through it."

Thirdly, he regurgitates the obligatory stereotypes and cliches
that, interestingly enough, are not dealt with in "Confirmation"
(the book I'm assuming Shermer is addressing.)

He's going to be eaten alive if this is the schtick he plans on
using on 'Politically Incorrect'.


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 816-561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html










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                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:47:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 01:30:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Stacy


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 17:48:25 -0300

<snip>

 >What a strange question. It has been known for more than 20
 >years that Brazel had found at least 2 weather balloons and been
 >paid the rewards offered on the attached notices. (Instrument
 >packages). The Ranch was at least 10,000 acres, not a half acre
 >plot in a city. He had lived there a long time. Many balloons
 >had been launched in New Mexico. It might be more amazing if he
 >hadn't found any.

Stan,

Color me ignorant.

But from who or where does the above information come from?

Who said that Brazel had recovered at least two weather
balloons, and when?

Thanks in advance!

Dennis








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                             Re: Ramey's Debris

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:53:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 01:32:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 02:11:47 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >Years ago I could go to an area where you could find Radiosonde
 >instrument packages, some of them old, some of them new. Also
 >saw remnants of balloons.

 >At the time I asked the weather people about that and they said
 >that depending on where the "common" wind pattern was and the
 >launch site you could stumble into an area with the instrument
 >packages and balloon debris. In my case I happened to stumble
 >into the area and find the balloon material. Over the years I
 >had gone back to that area in Nevada and found even more.

 >I always regarded myself as lucky and fortunate to have stumbled
 >into the area. Many people don't know, nor do they have any
 >clue.

 >Even though I am not a 'weather balloon' expert of any kind I
 >could tell the difference between balloon material and debris
 >found at aircraft crash sites... there is a large difference.


Robert,

So what you're saying is that the Foster ranch was in an
established "flight pattern"?

If so, then what does that say about the likelihood of a Mogul
balloon array coming down on same?

Cheers,

Dennis








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   Aug > Aug 18

                  Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 20:09:03 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 01:37:53 -0400
Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Sparks


 >From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: MOD Rendlesham File Released
 >Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:16:46 +0100

 >THE RENDLESHAM FILE

 >History in the making: British Government release UFO file on
 >Britain's Most Famous UFO Incident


 >The official view is that no one at higher levels in the Air
 >Force or government took the Rendlesham sightings at all
 >seriously at the time - and this book is not going to change the
 >official views, despite what Bruni may hope. Ian Ridpath,
 >Review of 'You Can't Tell The People', The Skeptic, Volume 14 No 1.


 >The Rendlesham Forest incident, involving members of the USAF
 >stationed at the twin RAF bases Bentwaters and Woodbridge in
 >Suffolk, England, is Britain's most famous UFO case. Hard
 >evidence to support that an incident did take place on the
 >perimeter of RAF Woodbridge is now well documented. This
 >includes an official USAF memorandum authored Deputy Base
 >Commander, Lt Colonel Halt, his tape recording of the incident
 >and more recently official USAF photographs taken of the landing
 >site. But still the sceptics hang on to the theory that the UFO
 >was nothing more than the beam from the local lighthouse.

 >Since January 2001, Admiral of the Fleet The Lord Hill Norton,
 >has put a staggering 16 Questions to the House of Lords relating
 >to the case as presented in my book _You Can't Tell The People_.

 >As a result of these Questions and pressure put on Parliament
 >and the Ministry of Defence to release information on this case,
 >Lord Hill Norton and myself are now in possession of the
 >Ministry of Defence's Rendlesham Forest file.

 >For twenty one years the Ministry of Defence has claimed that
 >the only report in their file, was Colonel Halt's memorandum,
 >that the incident was of no defence significance and that no
 >UFO's were tracked on radar.

 >What does the file reveal?

 >1.Vital evidence, which backs up my book and proves that in
 >spite of what the sceptics believe, those at higher levels in
 >the Air Force and government did take the Rendlesham Forest
 >incident seriously enough to begin an investigation.

 >2.That the Americans retrieved vital evidence that was not
 >shared with Britain's Ministry of Defence.

 >3.That several departments in the Ministry of Defence and RAF
 >were involved in an investigation, including Defence
 >Intelligence Staff.

 >4.That problems arose with equipment at RAF Watton Eastern Radar
 >during the incident.

 >5.That Defence Intelligence Staff considered the radiation
 >readings to be significantly higher than normal (by a factor of
 >about ten).

 >6.That the USAF did carry out an investigation.

 >7.That the Ministry of Defence considered sanitising Colonel
 >Halt's memorandum prior to its release due to concern over
 >intelligence and national security matters.

 >And much more!

 >Nick Pope: These revelations are sensational, and I'm sure there
 >will be pressure for an inquiry into both the incident itself
 >and the subsequent actions of both the MOD and the USAF.

 >Full Story in UFO Magazine (UK) on Sale 30 August 2001 Includes
 >feedback from senior Air Force Staff

 >Order your copy from www.ufomag.co.uk Tel: 0870 7575836

 >I will be doing a full presentation of the facts, an update and
 >further comments from witnesses and those involved, at the
 >International Leeds Conference on 22 September 2001.

 >Georgina Bruni

 >"You Can't Tell The People". The Definitive Account of the
 >Rendlesham Forest UFO Mystery by Georgina Bruni.
 >Published by Sidgwick & Jackson
 >Available on-line at: www.amazon.co.uk and all good bookshops


Congratulations, Georgina!!!

Well done. This will definitely throw the pelicanist debunkers
into a frightful panic. Lately they have been trying desperately
to force other lighthouse/lightship beams to fit the sighting
data but can never get the known terrain and measured compass
directions to fit - either one or the other stops them cold.

So the MOD is proved to have been lying through its teeth
claiming the only document in its files was the Halt memo.


Brad Sparks






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   Aug > Aug 18

               Re: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images - Young

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 20:26:36 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 01:44:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images - Young


 >Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 12:45:28 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images

 >>Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 00:09:30 -0400
 >>From: Kenny Young <ufo@FUSE.NET>
 >>Subject: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>Folks;

 >>In regards to the suspected UFO video from Lexington, Kentucky
 >>ABC affiliate Newschannel 36 WTVQ, a preliminary analysis is
 >>underway and still images from that video are now available
 >>online. I hope to receive some explanation for the object on the
 >>video and hopefully a more detailed assessment will follow
 >>shortly.

 >>The link is:

 >>http://home.fuse.net/ufo/lexufo.html

 >Hi Kenny,

 >Thanx for the pix! That's one Hell of a balloon if that's what
 >it is. The size of a van you say. It would have to be a 'one
 >off' custom creation if it is a balloon. How many specialty
 >balloon manufacturers can there be with the capability to
 >produce such a complex creation? I would imagine only one or two
 >of a handful of parade balloon manufacturers would be capable of
 >making a balloon this size, and of this quality of detail. And
 >no anchoring line? Surprising for what -must be- a terribly
 >expensive balloon. (If that's what it is.)

 >If it is a balloon, they should get one for our annual Macy's
 >Thanksgiving Day parade! Far out.  I can hear one of the
 >spectators now:
 >
 >"Martha, get in the car and head for New Jersey! They've landed,
 >they've landed!"  ;)


Hi John;

So far the general reaction is "balloon" by far. Given the
balloon-like appearance on the still images and videotape (with
slight rotation and wobble while ascending upward) I can't
fathom why this was reported as a UFO and has generated debate
there in Lexington (acknowledging that some in the newsroom did
advance the 'mylar balloon' theory to be sure).

But this was thought to be a UFO and of some importance. It
seems this goes to show just how easily misperception (possibly
combined with a little dose of agenda for flavoring) so easily
causes some to be led astray.


Take care,

Kenny Young









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               Re: Streiber On Politically Incorrect - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 20:49:44 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 01:47:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Streiber On Politically Incorrect - Sparks


 >From: Steve Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 02:20:13 EDT
 >Subject: Streiber On Politically Incorrect
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Whitley Streiber's appearance on Politically Incorrect tonight,
 >August 16.

 >Watching Dr. Michael Shermer do his usual shtick, it occurred to
 >me that professional skeptics are like the water used in nuclear
 >reactors to contain and control the fuel rods.

 >They serve the government agenda and a lazy news media by
 >suffusing the powerful UFO/ET research with smarmy, unctuous,
 >pretentious, arrogant smugness in and effort to contain the work
 >and slow the impact.

 >With disclosure this smugness will drain away and the intense
 >heat of revelation will turn these skeptic's legacy to ash.

 >Steve Bassett


I totally disagree. The government has found a much more
effective way of creating paralyzing chaos and confusion among
the ranks of UFO researchers than by using boring "voice of
reason" types.

Any psychologiacl warfare expert can tell you it's the inflaming
of emotions that clouds reason the best.

They leak wild stories and covertly assist crackpots with
outlandish tales, and set ufologists and debunkers at each
other's throats over such nonsense, as well as divide the UFO
research community into warring camps.

It is obviously very successful - just look around at the
results. This has been going on since around 1950 if not earlier
and we still don't see it.









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   Aug > Aug 18

                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 22:44:02 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 02:36:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Gates


 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris
 >Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:45:06 -0500

 >>Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 16:54:11 +0100
 >>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris

 ><snip>

 >>And you also have to take into account Mack Brazel was quite
 >>familiar with neoprene weather balloons he'd picked them up on
 >>the ranch previously.

 ><snip>

 >Neil,

 >No, we don't have to take into account the fact that Brazel was
 >"quite familiar with neoprene weather balloons" as "he'd picked
 >them up on the ranch previously."

 >Don't care if Brazel is quoted as saying same, don't care if
 >someone else is quoted as saying same. Whoever said it was
 >wrong, period.

 >Just consider the odds. What was there about the Foster ranch
 >that made it an attraction for weather balloons, so much so that
 >Brazel would have been "familiar" with same?

Lets consider the odds that I have personally seen and or picked
up 15-20 weather balloon packages over the years. It is highly
likely that Dennis has never, if at any time ever seen an actual
downed instrument package and or balloon remnants.

 >Ranches (and the real world) just don't work that way. If a
 >neoprene weather balloon had previously landed on the Foster
 >ranch, Brazel's chances of having encountered the remains of
 >same would have been on the order of one in a million or more.
 >His chances of encountering a second weather balloon would have
 >been even more miniscule.

Depending on the wind patterns when the balloons were launched,
how far they would travel etc etc.

 >Metaphorically speaking, of course.

 >Still, this is the sort of statement that some people can accept
 >even when it flies in the face of local, ground-zero logic.

 >I defy anyone to find a rancher who is "quite familiar
 >with...weather balloons," now or then, having found them popping
 >up like daisies on their land.

Naturally when Dennis characterized Brazel previously finding
two balloon packages as "popping up like daisies" we realize he
is just Birnesizing the facts here.

 >Any such balloons would have had to have landed in Brazel's
 >front yard for him to have encountered same. That he would have
 >stumbled across enough downed weather balloons to have
 >familiarized himself with same is patently absurd. Ain't gonna
 >happen that way.

I know both ranchers and farmers that are all over their ground,
and would pretty well instantly know if something crashed or
landed. I know others that unless the object was driven to their
driveway, or landed right in front of them, they wouldn't care
nor give it much interest.

 >And before you ask: yes, our family's got a ranch.

Doesn't matter. The odds are you may never seen a downed balloon
instrument package

 >But ol' Brazel, he jes' wanderin' round. Oops, there be a
 >weather balloon. Dang, there's another one! And a third! Now I
 >know what they look like, won't be fooled again, even if them
 >other suckers didn't have radar reflectors.

For a cash reward I have no doubt he would look at them. Course
we live in a day and age where people go and dig up old outhouse
for the old antique bottles to sell. Wonder what the odds are
that people would dig up old outhouse locations for old bottles?

 >I'm sorry, but it's extremely unlikely that Brazel would have
 >been familiar with downed weather balloons, whoever testified
 >to same.

I find it extremely unlikely that anybody would dig up old
outhouses for the old bottles, but people in fact do it. Just
because I find it unlikely doesn't mean it doesn't happen.


Cheers,

Robert









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                 Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 00:58:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 02:39:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Maccabee


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 16:55:03 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 18:19:22 -0400
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>>

<snip>

 >>I point out again that a detailed analysis of Cavitt's interview
 >>is at:

 >>http://brumac.8k.com

 >>There I have argued that either Cavitt had somehow mixed up the
 >>Roswell retrieval with some other event or else he was flat out
 >>lying.

 >>I believe he was lying.


 >Hi Bruce,

 >I re-read your analysis and I disagree. I agree that Cavitt lied
 >about supposedly not recognizing that there was an ET
 >implication to the "flying saucer" or UFO controversy -- he
 >certainly could not have been that stupid. I also agree that
 >Cavitt lied in maintaining it was a weather balloon and avoiding
 >Mogul.

 >However you yourself pointed out the very real possibility that
 >the discrepancies in Cavitt's story with respect to others'
 >testimonies may be due to the possibility that Cavitt went out
 >only on the 2nd Trip to the Brazel site, by which time much of
 >the debris had already been collected on the 1st Trip, so the
 >area might have looked small to him when he saw it for the first
 >time.

 >If this happened on Sunday July 6 at the end of a 4th of July
 >holiday weekend, as the UP wire report states (Pflock pp. 90,
 >246), there might have been difficulty and delay in rounding up
 >base personnel such as Cavitt immediately.

Yes, but.....

I also believe Marcel when he said h anc Cavitt went out
together... in which case Cavitt had to have met Brazel since
'Brazel was the only one who knew where the material was.

In the paper I wrote I was trying to be as 'kind' to Cavitt as
possible by offering a 'way out'.....

However, I wrote that paper "many years ago. Now..... no more Mr
Nice Guy.

Cavitt Lied!









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   Aug > Aug 18

                        Re: Ramey's Debris - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 00:59:49 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 03:15:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Maccabee


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 17:16:15 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com


 >>Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 23:20:28 -0400
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

<snip>

 >>The flying scaucer became entangled in the Mogul balloon train
 >>and then the outer hull exploded with the curved metal/cloth
 >>pieces dragging the the Mogul balloon train to the ground where
 >>disk and Mogul randomly intermixed. No _wonder_ Marcel was
 >>_confused_ and Cavitt could get away claiming he saw wrekage of
 >>a weather balloon.

 >>Hahahahaha


 >>(The rain in Spain falls mainly in my brain.)
 >>(By George, I think he's got it!)


 >Maybe you can stop belly-laughing long enough to consider that
 >UFOs have long made experimental balloon launches as well as
 >rocket launches a target of attention, as witness numerous
 >incidents reported by General Mills Skyhook project team
 >members, including incidents at White Sands and elsewhere.  I
 >recall there was a balloon incident where it was claimed that a
 >large hole was found in the balloon after the UFO encounter
 >(1951?  Jan Aldrich knows the details).

I certainly do recall the balloon scientist encounters and have mentioned
them in The UFO FBI COnnection and also in my new book Abduction
In My Life.

I don't recall a hole-in-the-balloon incident... which does not
mean there wasn't one.

As I recall in the Moore and Kaliszewski sightings the UFO was
careful to avoid hitting the balloon.










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                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 01:11:17 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 03:17:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Sparks


 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris
 >Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:45:06 -0500

 >>Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 16:54:11 +0100
 >>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris

 ><snip>

 >>And you also have to take into account Mack Brazel was quite
 >>familiar with neoprene weather balloons he'd picked them up on
 >>the ranch previously.

 ><snip>

 >Neil,

 >No, we don't have to take into account the fact that Brazel was
 >"quite familiar with neoprene weather balloons" as "he'd picked
 >them up on the ranch previously."

 >Don't care if Brazel is quoted as saying same, don't care if
 >someone else is quoted as saying same. Whoever said it was
 >wrong, period.

 >Just consider the odds. What was there about the Foster ranch
 >that made it an attraction for weather balloons, so much so that
 >Brazel would have been "familiar" with same?

 >Ranches (and the real world) just don't work that way. If a
 >neoprene weather balloon had previously landed on the Foster
 >ranch, Brazel's chances of having encountered the remains of
 >same would have been on the order of one in a million or more.
 >His chances of encountering a second weather balloon would have
 >been even more miniscule.

 >Metaphorically speaking, of course.

 >Still, this is the sort of statement that some people can accept
 >even when it flies in the face of local, ground-zero logic.

 >I defy anyone to find a rancher who is "quite familiar
 >with...weather balloons," now or then, having found them popping
 >up like daisies on their land.

 >Any such balloons would have had to have landed in Brazel's
 >front yard for him to have encountered same. That he would have
 >stumbled across enough downed weather balloons to have
 >familiarized himself with same is patently absurd. Ain't gonna
 >happen that way.

 >And before you ask: yes, our family's got a ranch.

 >But ol' Brazel, he jes' wanderin' round. Oops, there be a
 >weather balloon. Dang, there's another one! And a third! Now I
 >know what they look like, won't be fooled again, even if them
 >other suckers didn't have radar reflectors.

 >I'm sorry, but it's extremely unlikely that Brazel would have
 >been familiar with downed weather balloons, whoever testified to
 >same.


Dennis,

You're already refuted by my earlier post at:

http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/2001/aug/m18-001.shtml

The chances of any one balloon just from Alamogordo alone - not
including Roswell if there were daily balloon launches there -
was roughly 1 in 2,000 to 3,000 or so. It would only take
several years of daily or twice daily launches, i.e., 2,000 to
6,000 balloons, to have one or two land on the Foster Ranch.

And if Roswell was launching too, that increases the likelihood
of balloons landing on the Foster Ranch.

If you dispute this then come up with better numbers not
factless opinion.

Brad


Calculations:

If the Foster Ranch was at least 10,000 acres then that is at
least 15 square miles or a diameter of about 5 miles or so.

Weather stations that measure winds/temp/humidity aloft with
radiosondes typically release such balloons once or twice a day
at set times. Alamogordo was probably one such station. I wish
people would publish the weather data for the Roswell incident
time frame so we can know these things and not have to surmise.

That would be 365 or 730 balloons per year just from Alamogordo
alone. Suppose balloons burst and fall within a 100 mile radius
(after catching the jet stream which would preferentially carry
more balloons eastward, northeast and southeast). Northeast
carries you to Foster Ranch at about the 100-mile range. Because
balloons have a standard ascent rate of around 1,000 ft/min and
burst at or below 100,000 feet they are aloft about 2 hours and
the jet stream will carry them about say 100 miles. Again just
very very rough numbers to do a simple calculation instead of
factless numberless worthless speculation.

As you can see there is going to be a preferred landing zone for
Alamogordo weather balloons along an arc of around 100 miles
radius east of the base, stretching from say Carlsbad up through
Roswell and to Corona, when the jet stream is active. (Applies
to Mogul balloons too.)

But let's suppose first the balloons went in _all_ directions
for 100 miles before computing the eastern arc landing zone. The
chances of hitting a 15+ sq.mi. Foster Ranch size area in that
case is only 1 in 2,000. So if there were only once a day
balloon launches from Alamogordo (it might have been double that
but let's start conservative), in 6 years there would be 2,190
or so balloons launched and a good chance one would have landed
on the Foster Ranch. But this requires a jet stream to carry
them that far and the jet stream is not operative all year round
in a given location.

Now let's figure the eastern arc from a jet stream and guess it
is active say 1/4 of the year, so maybe 90 daily balloons from
Alamogordo are caught in it or 180 if launched twice daily.
Suppose a 50-mile wide arc about 200 miles long or roughly an
area of 10,000 sq.mi. Chances of hitting the 15+ sq.mi. Foster
Ranch are roughly 1 in 700. So the chances are good that in
about 8 years for daily launches or in 4 years of twice daily
launches, a balloon would come down on the Foster Ranch.

Sounds very plausible given these numbers.










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                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 02:46:15 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 03:19:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Gates


 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:53:09 -0500

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 02:11:47 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>Years ago I could go to an area where you could find Radiosonde
 >>instrument packages, some of them old, some of them new. Also
 >>saw remnants of balloons.

 >>At the time I asked the weather people about that and they said
 >>that depending on where the "common" wind pattern was and the
 >>launch site you could stumble into an area with the instrument
 >>packages and balloon debris. In my case I happened to stumble
 >>into the area and find the balloon material. Over the years I
 >>had gone back to that area in Nevada and found even more.

 >>I always regarded myself as lucky and fortunate to have stumbled
 >>into the area. Many people don't know, nor do they have any
 >>clue.

 >>Even though I am not a 'weather balloon' expert of any kind I
 >>could tell the difference between balloon material and debris
 >>found at aircraft crash sites... there is a large difference.


 >Robert,

 >So what you're saying is that the Foster ranch was in an
 >established "flight pattern"?

 >If so, then what does that say about the likelihood of a Mogul
 >balloon array coming down on same?

Dennis,

The weather balloons may have come from a different location
than the infamous mogul balloon. Besides as I recall we truly
have 0, nada, evidence that any mogul balloons went down within
20 miles of the ranch. We do have evidence that over time Brazel
had apparently seen some weather balloons and knew what they
looked like...as opposed to debris field.


Cheers,

Robert









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                  Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 03:13:11 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 03:36:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell' - Sparks


 >Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 00:58:46 -0400
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>


 >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 16:55:03 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 18:19:22 -0400
 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>>

 ><snip>

 >>>I point out again that a detailed analysis of Cavitt's interview
 >>>is at:

 >>>http://brumac.8k.com

 >>>There I have argued that either Cavitt had somehow mixed up the
 >>>Roswell retrieval with some other event or else he was flat out
 >>>lying.

 >>>I believe he was lying.


 >>Hi Bruce,

 >>I re-read your analysis and I disagree. I agree that Cavitt lied
 >>about supposedly not recognizing that there was an ET
 >>implication to the "flying saucer" or UFO controversy -- he
 >>certainly could not have been that stupid. I also agree that
 >>Cavitt lied in maintaining it was a weather balloon and avoiding
 >>Mogul.

 >>However you yourself pointed out the very real possibility that
 >>the discrepancies in Cavitt's story with respect to others'
 >>testimonies may be due to the possibility that Cavitt went out
 >>only on the 2nd Trip to the Brazel site, by which time much of
 >>the debris had already been collected on the 1st Trip, so the
 >>area might have looked small to him when he saw it for the first
 >>time.

 >>If this happened on Sunday July 6 at the end of a 4th of July
 >>holiday weekend, as the UP wire report states (Pflock pp. 90,
 >>246), there might have been difficulty and delay in rounding up
 >>base personnel such as Cavitt immediately.

 >Yes, but.....

 >I also believe Marcel when he said h anc Cavitt went out
 >together... in which case Cavitt had to have met Brazel since
 >'Brazel was the only one who knew where the material was.

 >In the paper I wrote I was trying to be as 'kind' to Cavitt as
 >possible by offering a 'way out'.....

 >However, I wrote that paper "many years ago. Now..... no more Mr
 >Nice Guy.

 >Cavitt Lied!


If Rickett went out both trips then Brazel wouldn't be needed on
the 2nd Trip to help Cavitt find the site. Of course, with
aerial recon maybe finding aids weren't needed.

There just doesn't seem to be much to be gained for Cavitt to
lie about the visits. However, if he was directing the security
measures and the cordoning off of the site, with the base
Provost Marshal, then he must be lying about that in denying it.









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   Aug > Aug 18

                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Sparks

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 03:28:34 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 03:39:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Sparks


 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:45:06 -0500
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:57:10 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris

 >>Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 16:54:11 +0100
 >>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris

 ><snip>

 >And you also have to take into account Mack Brazel was quite
 >familiar with neoprene weather balloons he'd picked them up on
 >the ranch previously.

 ><snip>

 >Neil,

 >No, we don't have to take into account the fact that Brazel was
 >"quite familiar with neoprene weather balloons" as "he'd picked
 >them up on the ranch previously."

More accurately, _you_ don't want to take into account Brazel's
statement that he had previously found two weather balloons on
his property. You don't want to believe this because you find it
inconvenient. First Brazel describes a balloon crash on his
property, then at the end he denies it saying it wasn't anything
like the other balloons he had found.

 >Don't care if Brazel is quoted as saying same, don't care if
 >someone else is quoted as saying same.

Bessie Brazel Schreiber has also said they previously found
weather balloons on their property. Guess she made it up too,
huh Dennis?

 >Whoever said it was wrong, period.

Dennis Stacy knows better than the people who were there.

 >Just consider the odds. What was there about the Foster ranch
 >that made it an attraction for weather balloons, so much so that
 >Brazel would have been "familiar" with same?
 >>Ranches (and the real world) just don't work that way. If a
 >neoprene weather balloon had previously landed on the Foster
 >ranch, Brazel's chances of having encountered the remains of
 >same would have been on the order of one in a million or more.
 >His chances of encountering a second weather balloon would have
 >been even more miniscule.

 >Metaphorically speaking, of course.

Of course. Because non-metaphorically speaking your statement is
utter BS.

Hint: New Mexico is 120,000 square miles. Although I don't know
the precise figure, the Foster ranch is roughly 20 square miles
(maybe more). Even under the crude assumption that a weather
balloon had equal odds of dropping anywhere in New Mexico, the
odds of it dropping on the Foster Ranch are now down to 20 in
120,000 or one in 6000, non-metaphorically speaking.

If one takes into account that the property is downwind and
relatively close to a weather station that regularly launches
weather balloons, then the odds improve.

Albuquerque was the closest weather station that launched
radiosonde balloons, the type that carried award tags and would
be of value to ranchers. The weather bureau at Albuquerque sent
up two a day like clockwork. Say Brazel had been working the
ranch for three years. In three years that amounts to 2190
radiosonde balloons, non-metaphorically speaking.

The Foster Ranch was about 110 miles southeast of Albuquerque.
Examining Mogul records, about 75% of the balloons had
trajectories between the northeast and the southeast. If we
extrapolate that to Albuquerque, that's about 1600+ balloons
that would drop down in the 90 degree sector between NE and SE
"downwind" from Albuquerque over 3 years.

Let's further assume that close to 100% of these dropped within
150 miles. The neoprene balloons were rapidly degraded by
ultraviolet light and popped or deflated within a few hours of
launch. The winds would have to be quite strong to blow a
weather balloon further than this before it popped. (For
comparison, for the 3 neoprene Moguls launched in June/July 1947
with known trajectories, one traveled about 30 miles, another
80, and the third 120 miles.)

Now some math. The downwind sector with radius 150 miles
occupies an area of roughly 18000 square miles, of which the
Foster Ranch occupies 20. Assuming equal probability of coming
down inside this sector, the probability of dropping down on the
Foster Ranch is now down to 20 in 18000 or 1 in 900, a far cry
from one in a million, non-metaphorically speaking.

Since roughly 1600 balloons would drop in this area in a three
year period and the odds are roughly 1 in 900 of falling on the
Foster Ranch, then one would expect about two radiosonde
balloons from Albuquerque to end up on the Foster Ranch in a
three year period.

The calculation is rough, but it indicates that Brazel's
statement is quite reasonable given the large number of weather
balloons being launched in the area and the Foster Ranch being
downwind and in the zone where the balloons would likely drop.

This calculation also ignores the even greater number of pilot
balloons without instrument packages that were launched every
day, not only from Albuquerque, but other places like Santa Fe,
Alamogordo, Roswell, El Paso, and Orogrande (weather station for
White Sands). With the exception of Albuquerque, prevailing
winds would be less likely to take these balloons in the
vicinity of the Foster Ranch.

 >Still, this is the sort of statement that some people can accept
 >even when it flies in the face of local, ground-zero logic.

You mean Stacian debunker "logic", which is another animal
entirely.

 >I defy anyone to find a rancher who is "quite familiar
 >with...weather balloons," now or then, having found them popping
 >up like daisies on their land.

Not popping up like daisies - just dropping down on their land
once every year or two, not a terribly common event, but not
exactly "one in a million" either.

 >Any such balloons would have had to have landed in Brazel's
 >front yard for him to have encountered same. That he would have
 >stumbled across enough downed weather balloons to have
 >familiarized himself with same is patently absurd. Ain't gonna
 >happen that way.

 >And before you ask: yes, our family's got a ranch.

Is your ranch 20 square miles? Is it downwind from a weather
station that launches two balloons a day? With radar and weather
satellites, weather balloons just aren't as common as they used
to be 50 years ago.

Unless your family's ranch is in a situation similar to the
Foster Ranch in size and location, then your personal experience
vis--vis weather balloons falling on your property is
meaningless. I bet nobody gets malaria on your family's ranch
either. Does this mean that you can extrapolate that the odds of
getting malaria on a ranch in Panama are "one in a million?"

 >But ol' Brazel, he jes' wanderin' round. Oops, there be a
 >weather balloon. Dang, there's another one! And a third! Now I
 >know what they look like, won't be fooled again, even if them
 >other suckers didn't have radar reflectors.

 >I'm sorry, but it's extremely unlikely that Brazel would have
 >been familiar with downed weather balloons, whoever testified to
 >same.

Dang, us city slickers really fell for that cowboy's line. It
takes a regular cow paddy kicker, or should I say BS shoveler
like yourself to set us straight.


David Rudiak








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   Aug > Aug 18

             Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure - Kelly

From: Kelly <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 04:26:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 09:33:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure - Kelly


 >Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:39:25 -0700
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure

 >>Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:53:16 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure

 >>>Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 10:29:57 -0700
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure

 >Mr. Velez,

 >I appreciate and thank you for your comments. ;-)

 >1. You are correct, I do not know you or what you have done. I
 >can only talk about now. What I see now, is someone who cares
 >for my health and wishes me to stop. Thank you. And as you say -
 >it is my health - and I can do with it what I want. I choose to
 >do with it to give it up for truth. ;-) Yes that may sound
 >'naive' or 'extreme' or whichever adjective you wish to use. I
 >wonder if we put the same energy to requesting people like me to
 >stop, onto others who are prepared to die for 'country', for
 >'money', for 'drugs', for 'religion' or whatever for - if we
 >would have peace! ;-) If we did, maybe there would be no need
 >for me to put 'my life/health' at risk for truth. We can only
 >have freedom to solve the problems we have if we are dealing
 >with the truth, otherwise, we are living in an illusion! ie we
 >are deluded! (my interpretation! ;-))

<snip>

I worked for a former Prime Minister of Canada for many years
and can tell you how the process works here. Not sure about the
States. First, Prime Ministers and other high-ranking Ministers
have what is called an 'arm' - a machine that signs their
signatures. They get so much mail they have what is called a
Correspondence Unit, which sorts, reads and responds to the vast
majority of letters and emails received. The number of actual
letters that actually make it into what is called a 'signature
book' is very small indeed. That is the truth.

UFOs are not a politically urgent issue. That is the truth.

You can go on a hunger strike and die and politically it won't
make any difference. You might get some media coverage, and,
from the media point of view, if you do get coverage you can be
sure that you will be considered mentally unbalanced. You'll be
a one-day wonder. A dead one-day wonder.

On the other hand, with all the junk journalism in the states,
and if you're a young, good looking woman, you might be able to
get on some TV show and get your 15 minutes of fame.


Kelly









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               EW News: 08-18-01 Firmage - Engaging the Future

From: Kurt Jonach <ewarrior@electricwarrior.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 01:32:11 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 09:35:49 -0400
Subject: EW News: 08-18-01 Firmage - Engaging the Future


------------------------------------------------------------

The Electric Warrior : News August 18, 2001
http://www.electricwarrior.com/news/ewNews0028.htm

------------------------------------------------------------
� FIRMAGE - ENGAGING THE FUTURE
science & technology news

From: Joseph P. Firmage
Chairman
Motion Sciences Organization
http://MotionSciences.org

ABOUT MOTION SCIENCES

After several years and millions of dollars invested in
preparatory work, scientists in several research institutions
across the United States have come together. The people and
partners forming Motion Sciences believe that significant
discoveries in physics may be made within 10 years, discoveries
of great significance to the future of life on Earth. Explore
with me a hypothetical future.

Imagine that we discover by 2005 a breakthrough in energy
generation -- a device that can produce electricity with almost
no fuel, cost, or waste. Imagine limitless conversion of
seawater to fresh water by 2015. Imagine that by 2025 we no
longer need an electricity grid. Imagine a pollution-free
atmosphere by 2030. Imagine a permanent end to the growing
snarls of freeway traffic by 2040. Imagine a society which
recognizes a human right to move about as freely as the goods of
its economy -- across any border, any time; or a reusable
transportation vehicle that can take you into Space, driven by a
field of force rather than ejection of propellant. Finally
imagine a green Africa with a vibrant society of human and
natural life in 2051.

Sounds like science fiction, doesn't it? In fact, the vision
described above portrays precisely the kind of future emerging
from the implications of some of the best physics research
underway in the world today. A group of talented scientists and
engineers began quiet collaboration a few years ago, and have
now publicly joined forces in and with Motion Sciences, bringing
essential collaboration to a very challenging set of research
and development projects, a collaboration that we hope can soon
extend to engage complementary teams around the world.

In the process of forming this particular organization, we
considered for many months what kind of structure it should
have. Should Motion Sciences be a commercial, venture-capital
backed company? We tested this idea briefly, but more important
in our considerations, however, is the principle of what this
mission is all about, and it isn't about an IPO. Our mission is
about the possibility of sharing with the world one day tools
that could reverse environmental decline, end starvation and
poverty, and make wars a horror of the past.

Our mission is about helping to enable a renewal of human
civilization, and Nature as a whole.

Our mission is about the possibility that we will someday be
able to explore the Milky Way Galaxy in an interstellar
spacecraft.

Our mission is about scientific knowledge that shouldn't be
owned by a commercial corporation.

Motion Sciences Organization is therefore truly a public
enterprise -- and if we're successful, the proceeds yielded from
technologies sponsored by Motion Sciences will be given back to
humanity through select philanthropies. As a not-for- profit
501(c)3, our success in these missions will be dependent upon
the support of visionary institutional sponsors and citizens of
Earth. People like you. We have a goal for the 2001 calendar
year: engaging the support of 100,000 citizens of Earth,
becoming members of the Motion Sciences Community.

On behalf of a rare and talented network of highly credentialed
and rigorous scientists, engineers, and the teams assisting
them, I invite you to join with the people and institutional
partners of Motion Sciences in an historic attempt at a vital
mission. I cannot imagine a better way for the physics of the
21st century to be pioneered, than for citizens from all nations
to come together and make it so.  Let's join hands around the
planet!

------------------------------------------------------------
RELATED RESOURCES

Learn more about Motion Sciences at http://MotionSciences.org
and how you can help advance the work at
http://MotionSciences.org/joinnow.html.

------------------------------------------------------------
THE ELECTRIC WARRIOR
August 18, 2001
Silicon Valley, CA
http://www.electricwarrior.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Web developers, the URL address for this content is:
http://www.electricwarrior.com/news/ewNews0028.htm

Permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this article
or any portion thereof, provided The Electric Warrior is cited
as the source.

Images are created exclusively for the Electric Warrior Website.
They can be downloaded and cached for individual use, but may
not be reproduced or used in any other context without
permission.

eWarrior@electricwarrior.com







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   Aug > Aug 18

                       Rendlesham - MOD Files Website

From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:11:37 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 09:37:50 -0400
Subject: Rendlesham - MOD Files Website


THE RENDLESHAM FOREST INCIDENT M.O.D. FILE

Why wait for a conference - read it here first!

For over 20 years speculation has surrounded the British
Ministry of Defence's investigation of the spectacular UFO
incidents reported in Rendlesham Forest, near the RAF
Bentwaters-Woodbridge air base in Suffolk, England in 1980.

In May this year the MOD released the contents of their formerly
secret file on the case to UFO historians David Clarke and Andy
Roberts, with-holding just 2 documents on the grounds of
national security and 3 on the grounds they contain confidential
briefings to Government ministers.

The release of the file is a ground-breaking development in our
understanding of what happened in Rendlesham Forest and is sure
to set "alarm bells ringing" in high places!

The 155 page file contains evidence that the MOD *did*
investigate the incident, explains why they decided it was "of
no defence significance" and provides unique insights into the
internal policy that underpinned the MOD's attitude towards the
UFO problem in the 1980s.

You can now directly access the file contents, view samples of
the documents and read exclusive commentaries provided by
Rendlesham experts Jenny Randles and James Easton, by pointing
your web browser at Clarke and Robert's new fully illustrated
URL:

www.flyingsaucery.com

Our new site has been launched to showcase our ongoing, in-depth
historical research into classic UFO incidents reported in
Britain.

It will also be the home of a new, electronic version of the
much-missed magazine UFO Brigantia.

Become the first UFOlogist in your solar system to read the full
contents of the "Holy Grail" of the Rendlesham mystery.

When it comes to the latest news in British UFOlogy, Clarke and
Roberts insist that 'We CAN Tell the People' !

Happy trails,

Dave Clarke & Andy Roberts








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                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 08:59:29 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 09:42:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Randle


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 16:46:42 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com


 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >>Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 17:48:25 -0300

 >>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >>>Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 22:12:23 -0500

 >>>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>>Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:13:39 -0300

 >>><snip>

 >>>>As noted in the last portion of the RDR [Roswell Daily Record]
 >>>>article for July 9 (which is the basis for all the Mogul balloon
 >>>>nonsense), Brazel was sure it wasn't a weather balloon.

 >>>>He had found them before.

 >>>Stan,

 >>>Think about what you're saying here.

 >>>Are you suggesting that single weather balloons were raining
 >>>down on the Foster ranch to the extent that Brazel had come
 >>>across several others before encountering whatever it was that
 >>>he took into Roswell? That he was _familiar_ with same?

 >>>Gadzooks, man, what is the likelihood of _that_?

 >>What a strange question. It has been known for more than 20
 >>years that Brazel had found at least 2 weather balloons and been
 >>paid the rewards offered on the attached notices. (Instrument
 >packages). The Ranch was at least 10,000 acres, not a half acre
 >>plot in a city. He had lived there a long time. Many balloons
 >>had been launched in New Mexico. It might be more amazing if he
 >>hadn't found any.


Hi Stan, Dennis, Brad, all -

Nearly everyone I talked to who lived in that region, meaning
around Corona, talked of finding weather balloons. One even
mentioned that one balloon had a hundred dollar reward attached
to it, so he bundled it all up and sent it off, as the card
suggested, but never got the hundred dollars.

Another talked about a dried up, covered well in which they
disposed of the balloons because the cattle, as they grazed,
would eat the neoprene or other components and it could kill
them. For Dennis, yeah, the balloons were "raining" out of the
sky.

 >I think it's a reasonable question. But with a little info we
 >can do some back-of-the-envelope calculations. If the Foster
 >Ranch was at least 10,000 acres then that is at least 15 square
 >miles or a diameter of about 5 miles or so.

 >Weather stations that measure winds/temp/humidity aloft with
 >radiosondes typically release such balloons once or twice a day
 >at set times. Alamogordo was probably one such station. I wish
 >people would publish the weather data for the Roswell incident
 >time frame so we can know these things and not have to surmise.

Okay, Brad, here is what I know, based on the winds aloft data
that I got on two microfilms from the weather people in North
Carolina. Believe it or not, the winds aloft data has been
preserved, so that we can go back and check the records to find
out which way the wind was blowing on those critical days.

But, to answer your question, the winds aloft data was collected
four times a day. Balloons were launched from Tucson, AZ,
Albuquerque, El Paso and Roswell. There were also other balloons
launched from the middle of Arizona such as Phoenix that could
have easily reached New Mexico. I mention only the stations west
of Roswell (or south) because the winds generally blow from west
to east, but looking at these data, I see that they do blow in
the opposite direction. Interesting the winds at one level (say
10,000) might be blowing west, but the winds at 30,000 feet
would be stronger and blowing to the east (which means, I
suppose that with some UFO sightings, we could see a balloon
that seems to move against the wind).

I supplied a great deal of this information to Charles Moore
when he did his analysis of where the Flight No. 4 would have
fallen. He concluded that it would have drifted toward the
Brazel ranch, but that was supplemented by his belief that radar
had tracked it to near Arabella, but there are no records to
support this and Albert Crary's diary seems to argue that this
balloon train had no radar targets on it.

I don't know what specific information is needed, but it all
exists. I think that the claim, by Brazel, that he had found
weather balloons on two separate occasions is not at all
outrageous, given the nature of weather collection in New Mexico
in 1947.


KRandle








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                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:39:17 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:44:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Young


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 01:11:17 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris
 >>Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:45:06 -0500

<snip>

 >The chances of any one balloon just from Alamogordo alone - not
 >including Roswell if there were daily balloon launches there -
 >was roughly 1 in 2,000 to 3,000 or so. It would only take
 >several years of daily or twice daily launches, i.e., 2,000 to
 >6,000 balloons, to have one or two land on the Foster Ranch.

 >And if Roswell was launching too, that increases the likelihood
 >of balloons landing on the Foster Ranch.

Brad, Dennis, List:

This might be a low figure if there were other launching sites,
such as the missile test sites at White Sands or any sites used
by Reserve or regular artillery or air defense artillery. When
firing, artillery units' Meteorological sections in their Target
Acquisition Platoons launched regularly. I doubt that records
for these launches exist, though.


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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             Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:43:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 12:00:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure - Velez


 >Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 04:26:43 -0400
 >From: Kelly <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure

 >>Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:39:25 -0700
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure

 >>>Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:53:16 -0400
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure

 >>>>Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 10:29:57 -0700
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure

 >>Mr. Velez,

 >>I appreciate and thank you for your comments. ;-)

 >>1. You are correct, I do not know you or what you have done. I
 >>can only talk about now. What I see now, is someone who cares
 >>for my health and wishes me to stop. Thank you. And as you say -
 >>it is my health - and I can do with it what I want. I choose to
 >>do with it to give it up for truth. ;-) Yes that may sound
 >>'naive' or 'extreme' or whichever adjective you wish to use. I
 >>wonder if we put the same energy to requesting people like me to
 >>stop, onto others who are prepared to die for 'country', for
 >>'money', for 'drugs', for 'religion' or whatever for - if we
 >>would have peace! ;-) If we did, maybe there would be no need
 >>for me to put 'my life/health' at risk for truth. We can only
 >>have freedom to solve the problems we have if we are dealing
 >>with the truth, otherwise, we are living in an illusion! ie we
 >>are deluded! (my interpretation! ;-))

 ><snip>

 >I worked for a former Prime Minister of Canada for many years
 >and can tell you how the process works here. Not sure about the
 >States. First, Prime Ministers and other high-ranking Ministers
 >have what is called an 'arm' - a machine that signs their
 >signatures. They get so much mail they have what is called a
 >Correspondence Unit, which sorts, reads and responds to the vast
 >majority of letters and emails received. The number of actual
 >letters that actually make it into what is called a 'signature
 >book' is very small indeed. That is the truth.

 >UFOs are not a politically urgent issue. That is the truth.

 >You can go on a hunger strike and die and politically it won't
 >make any difference. You might get some media coverage, and,
 >from the media point of view, if you do get coverage you can be
 >sure that you will be considered mentally unbalanced. You'll be
 >a one-day wonder. A dead one-day wonder.

 >On the other hand, with all the junk journalism in the states,
 >and if you're a young, good looking woman, you might be able to
 >get on some TV show and get your 15 minutes of fame.


Hi Kelly,

Thanx for chiming in on this one. ;) She's not listening to me,
and my concern for her health is genuine. I'm not just flapping
my lips to make a breeze. I hope she opens her eyes and sees the
danger and futility in the course of action she has chosen.

The _last_ thing you want to do when you want a response from an
'indifferent' party is to proffer an ultimatum. It (usually)
only serves to entrench the other party in their position.

You're right about "how things work." It's the same here in the
States only worse. I have been giving Lara the benefit of the
doubt because she is not a US native. I'm sure she is not aware
of the 'nature of the beast' she is offering ultimatums to.

I sincerely hope she suffers no personal harm. She seems
hell-bent on seeing this thing through. Gotta admire her courage
and determination though. Although I don't give her any Brownie
points for taking advice from people who are expressing genuine
concern for her. The ones who are 'egging her on' have about as
much concern for her well-being as a farmer has for a barnyard
chicken. Just another 'entertainment' for them to feed on until
the next thing that makes them 'feel alive' comes along. They
are hyping her and the situation, to the point where it will
make it impossible for her to reconsider and back out before she
hurts herself. I still hold out hope that she'll re-think her
course of action before any of this takes a toll on her body or
her health.

Good note, good timing. Maybe she'll listen to you.   :)


Regards,

John Velez









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               Re: Rendlesham - MOD Files Website - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:51:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 12:02:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Rendlesham - MOD Files Website - Salvaille


 >From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Rendlesham - MOD Files Website
 >Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:11:37 +0100


Hello guys,

<snip>

 >The 155 page file contains evidence that the MOD *did*
 >investigate the incident, explains why they decided it was "of
 >no defence significance" and provides unique insights into the
 >internal policy that underpinned the MOD's attitude towards the
 >UFO problem in the 1980s.

 >You can now directly access the file contents, view samples of
 >the documents and read exclusive commentaries provided by
 >Rendlesham experts Jenny Randles and James Easton, by pointing
 >your web browser at Clarke and Robert's new fully illustrated
 >URL:

 > www.flyingsaucery.com

<snip>

Nice site with great layout.

But I couldn't find the 155 page file from MOD.

Where is it?


Regards,

Serge Salvaille









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                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 17:47:39 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 13:03:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 23:32:38 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 10:58:08 +0100
 >>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:07:59 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Review of Pflock's 'Roswell'
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>>I think that Ed reveals his lack of reliability as a photo
 >>>interpreter by not noticing the resemblance. His fascination
 >>>with the phony Alien Autopsy film doesn't add much confidence,
 >>>either.

 >>Ed didn't find the connection, I did. It _is_ curious, but the
 >>fact is 4 symbol shapes identified in sequence on the same
 >>single beam section from the AA "debris footage" happen to match
 >>closely, symbol shapes seen in the Fort Worth Photographs,
 >>the number of matches I find more than just coincidence.

 >Well, if one was going to fake the AA film, and was interested
 >enough in details to include something which looked like the
 >long- published picture from Fort Worth, then maybe thay were
 >careful enough to include details.

But just _who_ would this be and more to the point _when_?. And
that leads to a "what came first, the chicken or the egg" type
situation if you claim the alleged Alien Autopsy hoaxer had
prior knowledge of the symbols in the FW pictures.

And the AA symbols I'm talking about _are_ _not_ the publicised
beam symbols that every one who has seen the AA are familiar
with.

The symbols that match those seen in the FW pictures sit
along a beam on one of the tables seen in the _background_ of
the "debris footage" and as far as I'm aware were totally
un-noticed until I hit on them by chance, late in 1999, no one
else has come forward to claim prior knowledge of these to date.

A similar point can be made for the FW pictures, has anyone
before the RPIT claimed to have found symbols lurking within
the debris on Ramey's floor potted them?, and at a date before
the AA film surfaced in 1993?.

I don't know of anyone making that claim, and it's just another
one of those researched points any potential hoaxer would have
had to have gone into to have produced the AA film.

Now the FW pictures are proven historical documents and have a
traceable history back to the day they were taken, I have copies
of the record cards from the Fort Worth Star Telegram morgue
showing their original entries. What we see in them we can say
with some confidence was there in Ramey's office on the
afternoon of the 8th July 1947.

So another point to add to the difficulties of a would be
hoaxer, is that one of the cross checked AA symbols from the FW
images was _not_ identified in the well known 4 UTA/ST images
but in the very little known and much less seen Bettmann image,
taken by JBJ but never used by the Star Telegram, no original
negative or 1st generation print exists and I believe the copy
negative held by the Bettmann was only discovered during the
course of Kevin Randles researches.

 ><snip>

 >>Jesse Marcel's site description works out at aprox 777,500 sqft

 >I wonder how Marcel got 777,500 square feet of anything in the
 >trunk of his little old car?

Ah, but Cavitt had a "carry-all", see later.

 >>That dubious interview with Mack Brazel in the RDR of the 9th
 >>July quotes Mack as saying the site was 200 yards across that's
 >>aprox 282,700 sqft. _If_ Charles Moore's MOGUL _did_ have 3
 >>ML307 reflectors and _if_ it did crash on the Foster Ranch it
 >>would only have

 >>_54_ sq ft of foil. (90 sq ft if it had 5 ML307's attached)

 >>To cover the above two site descriptions with 34 sqft of foil
 >>that's

 >>0.0275 sq INCHES per sq ft for Mack's size

 >>and

 >>0.01 sq INCHES per sq ft for Jesse Marcel's size of debris field

 >>And that is a _mighty_ thin spread _just_ to provide a uniform
 >>background cover.

 >>To provide a _noticable_ say 10% coverage of the above 2 areas
 >>you would need aprox one tenth of each of the area's ie over
 >>70,000 and 28,000 square _feet_  of foil in each case.

 >What makes 10% coverage necessary to notice some shiny debris
 >laying out on the desert?  There is a mighty big assumption
 >being made here.

There's even bigger assumptions at large if you think you can
spread MOGUL flight 4 over either of those areas with sufficient
debris density to even worry sheep.....see below.

 >Did Brazel ever say that the area was covered to this density?

Nope, but if Tommy Tyree, the ranch hand who worked with Mack shortly
after the event is to be believed, the density was such as to
trouble Mack's sheep to the extent they wouldn't cross the debris
field, and he had to drive them around it.


 >>But even if it did have ML307's the numbers don't really add up
 >>do they?

 >No, they don't and they sure don't add up to what was collected,
 >according to the witnesses and the only known pictures. I
 >suggest that these huge numbers are strictly in the imaginations
 >of believers who are building castles in the air.

Sorry Bob you've lost me here, the numbers used are _directly_
from witness testimony, and pictures?, am I to assume you are
referring to JBJ's FW pics (?so you agree the debris shown _is_
some of that from Roswell? or do you know of some others?) which
according to Jesse Marcel only show a small portion of what was
transported to FWAAF aboard that B29's flight and that debris
flight only held what he and Cavitt had recovered from the
debris field. Most of the debris was still left behind out there
on the ranch.

A short aside from above, Cavitt was said to have been driving a
"jeep carryall", being a Brit and not familiar with the term
"carryall" I was surprised to find out when I checked that's not
the small "jeep" vehicle that pops up in most WWII action
movies, but a much larger "station wagon" style vehicle, more
than enough room inside one of those to recover a  downed MOGUL
in itself, so how come they filled the carryall and Marcel's
Buick yet still left the larger part of the debris out there?.

Dodge's version of the Carryall:

http://www.thefortworthphotographs.freeserve.co.uk/images/dodge_carryall.jpg



Neil








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                          Canadian Reports Increase

From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 12:40:28 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 14:53:00 -0400
Subject: Canadian Reports Increase


15 August 2001

Media note: 2001 A Banner Year For UFOs in Canada So Far

More than 75 UFO reports have been filed so far this year by
Canadians. What's more, public interest in the subject is
climbing as a result of some particularly interesting cases and
the topic's prominence in the media.

"If the numbers keep up, we will be looking at an increase in
UFO sightings in 2001 over the year 2000," says Chris Rutkowski,
research coordinator for Ufology Research of Manitoba (UFOROM),
based in Winnipeg. "It's partly that there have been some highly
prominent sightings of objects, but also likely because of some
increased media attention, bringing the subject to the forefront
of everyone's mind."

Rutkowski works with statistician Geoff Dittman of Winnipeg and
literally dozens of private UFO researchers and investigators
across the country in an effort to compile and catalogue trends,
patterns and characteristics of UFO reports. He says it's part
of an ongoing project to help scientists and laypeople alike
understand what it is that UFO witnesses are seeing and also to
allow access to case data for research purposes.

2001 has seen several notable cases reported so far, such as:

  - a 10-foot crater found in a field in Alberta, possibly
    connected to witnesses seeing a "fire tornado" in the sky;

  - the re-entry of a Russian rocket booster during the peak of
    the Perseid meteor shower last weekend, seen at the same time
    as triangular formations of UFOs;

  - an anonymous report from someone claiming to be an Ontario
    Provincial Police officer, noting that four people watched in
    amazement as five alien beings in white robes took soil
    samples in a wooded area near Fergus, Ontario;

  - two people in Surrey, BC, saw a red ball of light drop
    material like "molten red wax" as it moved eastward;

  - two objects seen for more than an hour moving slowly through
    the sky over Conception Bay, Newfoundland.


Rutkowski notes it's not just the UFO sightings themselves that
bring attention. In August, Macleans magazine ran a feature on
Canadian UFO investigators and witnesses. Space: The Imagination
Station has been traveling across the country producing short
segments on weird and wonderful places in Canada. And this
coming October, a private group is organizing a "Disclosure
Conference" to be held in Calgary to highlight alleged
government cover-up of UFO information.

"Polls have shown that 10 per cent of Canadians have seen UFOs,
and the recent Macleans poll found that 61 per cent of Canadians
believe that aliens are visiting Earth," explains Rutkowski.
"Public interest is running very high, and it would appear that
UFOs are going to remain a driving - or rather, flying - force
in popular culture for a long time to come."

For more information on UFO reports and related research in
Canada, and for information on how to contact a UFO researcher
in your area, contact:

Chris Rutkowski
UFOROM
204-269-7553
or
email: rutkows@cc.umanitoba.ca

--







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                       Re: Ramey's Debris - Deardorff

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 10:39:06 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 14:57:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Deardorff


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 16:46:42 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >...
 >Weather stations that measure winds/temp/humidity aloft with
 >radiosondes typically release such balloons once or twice a day
 >at set times. Alamogordo was probably one such station. I wish
 >people would publish the weather data for the Roswell incident
 >time frame so we can know these things and not have to surmise.

 >That would be 365 or 730 balloons per year just from Alamogordo
 >alone. Suppose balloons burst and fall within a 100 mile radius
 >(after catching the jet stream which would preferentially carry
 >more balloons eastward, northeast and southeast). Northeast
 >carries you to Foster Ranch at about the 100-mile range. Because
 >balloons have a standard ascent rate of around 1,000 ft/min and
 >burst at or below 100,000 feet they are aloft about 2 hours and
 >the jet stream will carry them about say 100 miles. Again just
 >very very rough numbers to do a simple calculation instead of
 >factless numberless worthless speculation.

 >As you can see there is going to be a preferred landing zone for
 >Alamogordo weather balloons along an arc of around 100 miles
 >radius east of the base, stretching from say Carlsbad up through
 >Roswell and to Corona, when the jet stream is active. (Applies
 >to Mogul balloons too.)

 >But let's suppose first the balloons went in _all_ directions
 >for 100 miles be fore computing the eastern arc landing zone.
 >The chances of hitting a 15+ sq.mi. Foster Ranch size area in
 >that case is only 1 in 2,000. So if there were only once a day
 >balloon launches from Alamogordo (it might have been double that
 >but let's start conservative), in 6 years there would be 2,190
 >or so balloons launched and a good chance one would have landed
 >on the Foster Ranch. But this requires a jet stream to carry
 >them that far and the jet stream is not operative all year round
 >in a given location.

 >Now let's figure the eastern arc from a jet stream and guess it
 >is active say 1/4 of the year, so maybe 90 daily balloons from
 >Alamogordo are caught in it or 180 if launched twice daily.
 >Suppose a 50-mile wide arc about 200 miles long or roughly an
 >area of 10,000 sq.mi. Chances of hitting the 15+ sq.mi. Foster
 >Ranch are roughly 1 in 700. So the chances are good that in
 >about 8 years for daily launches or in 4 years of twice daily
 >launches, a balloon would come down on the Foster Ranch.

 >Sounds very plausible given these numbers.

Brad,

All that sounds right to me. Although you concentrated on
Alamagordo, which probably launched weather balloons on its own
aperiodic schedule, depending on their own operations, the
closest NWS radiosonde stations frequently in an upwind
direction from Roswell were (and are) Albuquerque, El Paso and
Tucson; they launched twice a day. I should think that balloons
from any of those stations would occasionally have been coming
down in the general vicinity of Roswell, as well as all over the
larger area.

The rawinsonde network is different from the radiosonde network,
but overlapping, I believe. Also pibals (pilot balloons) were
sent up as frequently as every 6 hours from a somewhat denser
network of stations (to measure winds only).

Out on the West coast, where I live, we have virtually no chance
of ever seeing a downed weather balloon, due to no weather
stations to the NW, W or SW of us, and due to all the trees
around. Out in arid New Mexico one has a much greater chance of
spotting a downed balloon.


Jim Deardorff








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                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 13:47:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 15:01:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Stacy


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 03:28:34 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Is your ranch 20 square miles? Is it downwind from a weather
 >station that launches two balloons a day? With radar and weather
 >satellites, weather balloons just aren't as common as they used
 >to be 50 years ago.


David, others,

Sorry to have put you to so much trouble - because I quite
readily agree that I was wrong about the likelihood of Brazel
encountering weather balloons, and you and other respondents
were right.

The ranch I'm referring to is actually bigger... I'm embarrassed
to say by how much. During WWII there was a large AAF training
field that was about, oh, 40 to 50 miles west of the land. In
fact, there's a downed plane somewhere on the ranch.

After I wrote my precipitous post, I realized that a couple of
my unspoken assumptions were probably incorrect. For one thing,
I was going by the amount of roadway on the ranch, from which
you _might_ be able to view, say, 5% of the actual landmass
involved. Stumbling across a small weather balloon in such a
vast area would indeed be equivalent to coming across the
proverbial needle in the haystack.

I also overlooked the fact that all ranching back then was done
on horseback. Nowadays, ranchers are more likely to use
helicopters. From atop a horse, Brazel would have had a higher
vantage point than you get from the driver's seat of a typical
SUV today, and thus able to see more all around. Although you
can cover a lot more ground in an average day in an SUV than you
can on horseback!

I also no doubt incorrectly extrapolated our ground coverage
(relatively dense) to the Foster ranch (probably relatively
sparse), even though both ranches are in the same "general" neck
of the woods.

So, yes, all in all, I accept that he could have arguably come
across weather balloons. I hope you aren't too disappointed.

 >Unless your family's ranch is in a situation similar to the
 >Foster Ranch in size and location, then your personal experience
 >vis--vis weather balloons falling on your property is
 >meaningless. I bet nobody gets malaria on your family's ranch
 >either. Does this mean that you can extrapolate that the odds of
 >getting malaria on a ranch in Panama are "one in a million?"

How about this one - in 1947, one of the world's rarest type of
meteorites fell on the ranch. It was recovered because a couple
of ranch hands just happened to see it hit. Otherwise, it would
have gone unnoticed and unfound forever. It was one of those
rocky things, not the iron-nickle type.

Lots of arrowheads, too, and the remains of at least one
mammoth. I couldn't lead anybody back to the latter, though, if
my life depended on it. But it's out there, "somewhere." I might
be able to find it from a helicopter, which is how it was
discovered in the first place.

Alas, no oil or gas deposits.


Dennis Stacy










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               The Encyclopedia of Extraterrestrial Encounters

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 20:20:48 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 15:47:19 -0400
Subject: The Encyclopedia of Extraterrestrial Encounters


Pre-release announcement from Ronald D. Story:

The Encyclopedia of Extraterrestrial Encounters
A Definitive, Illustrated A-Z Guide To All Things Alien

Edited by Ronald D. Story

ISBN 0-451-20424-7

Release Date: September 4, 2001

In this definitive, comprehensive A-Z compendium revealing all
points of view of the alien experience, UFO hostorian Ronald
Story gathers together more than 100 experts in the field of
alien facts, fallacies, fiction, and films to explore the
incredible phenomenon of extra-terrestrial life. Here are the
profound theories of scientists and absolute believers, the
provocative questions of skeptics, and the legendary hoaxes that
made headlines. Here are the hard-to-dismiss eyewitness accounts
that made us think twice about God, the ancient pyramids, life
and death; the classic and sometimes outlandish sci-fi movies
that fueled America's fears; the effects of the atomic bomb on
the world's people, and the prescient visions of such literary
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in this massive compilation provide fascinating reading for
anyone who has ever pondered the universal question: Are we
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Illustrated with more than 300 rare drawings and photographs and
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Contributions from Jacques Vallee, Whitley Strieber, Carl
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D. Randle, Budd Hopkins, Stanton Friedman and many others

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Complete coverage of famous cases, leading theories and
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Full Alien Gallery
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for $9.99 postpaid, via Air Mail, to anywhere on the planet!

Order direct from Ronald Story at:

3540 � 32nd Avenue North #114
St. Petersburg, Florida 33713 U.S.A.
E-mail: UFOENCYCLOPEDIA@aol.com
Telephone: (727) 692-7600 or (727) 528-3789
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The book can also be ordered from AMAZON.COM

Regards,
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UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Filer's Files and Oz Files.








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                        Re: Ramey's Debris - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 13:02:36 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 11:25:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Friedman


 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:47:46 -0500

 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >>Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 17:48:25 -0300

 ><snip>

 >>What a strange question. It has been known for more than 20
 >>years that Brazel had found at least 2 weather balloons and been
 >>paid the rewards offered on the attached notices. (Instrument
 >>packages). The Ranch was at least 10,000 acres, not a half acre
 >>plot in a city. He had lived there a long time. Many balloons
 >>had been launched in New Mexico. It might be more amazing if he
 >>hadn't found any.
 >
 >Stan,

 >Color me ignorant.

 >But from who or where does the above information come from?

 >Who said that Brazel had recovered at least two weather
 >balloons, and when?


The first source that came to hand 'The Roswell Incident' (1980)
pp 90,91 from Bill Brazel:

      "We've picked up balloons all over this country and any
      time we found one we always turned it in because there was
      sometimes a reward for them. This was no balloon, although
      I once asked Dad if he ever found anything like an
      instrument package connected with this stuff. He said no,
      there was no instrument package."


Stan Friedman

Note: the interview was done long before Roswell became a
household name.









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                          Magonia Supplement No.36

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 22:31:50 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 11:36:34 -0400
Subject: Magonia Supplement No.36


This is the latest edition of Magonia Supplement, edited by John
Harney

MAGONIA
Supplement No. 36

EDITORIAL

We said it many years ago and we are saying it again. In August
1973 we published an editorial titled "Serious research or
juvenile entertainment" (MUFOB, Vol. 6, No. 2) in response to
pleas, in BUFORA Journal, for researchers to concentrate on
"genuine extraterrestrial hardware" (which still seems to be
unavailable) instead of all those boring psychological theories
or detailed reports of objective investigations of UFO reports.

In those days, it seems, popular ufology was aimed at
"starstruck teenagers", whereas now it is aimed at those who
never grow up. When veteran ufologist Richard Hall recently
submitted one of his regular columns to MUFON UFO Journal, it
was rejected by the Editor, because of Hall's critical comments
about some of the speakers booked for the forthcoming MUFON
conference. Hall resigned from MUFON in protest. Having looked
at the list of speakers, your Editor found only one who seems
likely to make a sensible and worthwhile contribution to any
topic in UFO studies. The others have obviously been chosen for
their entertainment value. However, it seems that this policy of
entertaining the immature, the cranks and the feeble minded is
not succeeding; MUFON membership is reported to be on the
decline. In its present state, its eventual demise would be no
great loss.

**********

CHILES-WHITTED:

Burn, Baby, Burn

Martin S. Kottmeyer

In the early morning hours of 24 July, 1948, a DC-3 piloted by
Captain Clarence S. Chiles is being overtaken by something.
Captain Chiles nudges his co-pilot, John B. Whitted: "Look, here
comes a new Army jet job." (1)

His official statement reads: "At 2:45 a.m., we were cruising at
5,000 feet when there came what looked like a jet-type aircraft
to our right and slightly above meeting us. It was a clear
moonlit night with the visibility excellent; therefore, we were
able to view the ship as it passed for a period of about ten
seconds. It was clear there were no wings present, that it was
powered by some jet or other type of power shooting flame from
the rear some fifty feet. There were two rows of windows, which
indicated an upper and lower deck, from inside these windows, a
very bright light was glowing. Underneath the ship there was a
glow of blue light. After it passed it pulled up into some light
broken clouds and was lost from view. There was no prop wash or
rough air felt as it passed." In a 2 November 1948
interrogation, Chiles added that it made a departure using an
"excellent, well-coordinated gentle climbing turn into clouds
before disappearance". Blue Book files indicate Chiles also
apparently thought "the flame flared out from a nozzle in the
rear which he thought he perceived. The flame extended some
30-50 feet behind the object and became deeper in intensity and
increased in length as the object pulled up into a cloud."

The co-pilot confirmed this for the most part: "We were at 5,000
feet and our position was 25 miles southwest of Montgomery,
Alabama. The strange object had a stream of red fire coming from
its tail. I assumed it was a jet type airplane of the Army or
Navy but as it came nearer I could see it was much larger than
any Army or navy jet I have seen or read about. It passed us on
the right side of our DC-3. I would estimate its speed in the
neighborhood of 700 mph but this is purely a rough estimate. We
were holding a compass heading of 50 degrees and the object
passed us going in the opposite direction. To me, the object
seemed about a half-mile from us, flying straight and level. I
could see no wings supporting the object. The object was
cigar-shaped and seemed about a hundred feet in length. The
fuselage appeared to be about three times the circumference of a
B-29 fuselage. It had two rows of windows, an upper and lower.
The windows were very large and seemed square. They were white
with light that seemed to be caused by some kind of combustion.
I estimate that we watched the object at least 5 seconds and not
more than 10 seconds. We heard no noise nor did we feel any
turbulence from the object. It seemed to be at about 5,500
feet." Whitted added that he didn't perceive the nozzle Chiles
saw, but confirmed "the increased length of the flame as the
object 'pulled up'".

After the pilots recovered from their initial surprise, they
found one passenger awake and got him to see the thing, but by
then there was "no physical shape -- only a streak of flame
moving in a straight line". Newspaper reports painted the
encounter in more lurid terms: "It flashed down and we veered to
the left and it veered to its left, and passed us about 700 feet
to our right and about 700 feet above us. Then as if the pilot
has seen us and wanted to avoid us, it pulled up with a
tremendous burst of flame out of its rear and zoomed up into the
clouds. Its prop-wash or jet-wash rocked our DC-3." The pilots
denied the presence of felt turbulence both in their interviews
with Air Force investigators and, later, ufologist James
McDonald.

Ruppelt indicates that old-timers at ATIC were shook up by this
case worse than the Mantell incident. "This was the first time
two reliable sources had been really close to a UFO to get a
good look and live to tell about it.

A few days after the DC-3 was buzzed, the people at ATIC decided
that the time had arrived to make an Estimate of the Situation.
The situation was the UFOs; the estimate was that it was
interplanetary!"(2) Menzel indicates the case "went far to
establish in the minds of the general public as well as of Air
Force investigators that the saucers were solid objects and some
sort of flying craft, humanly manned." He reports that "a
widely-circulated story claimed a high-speed rocket had broken
loose from White Sands" and caused the encounter. Menzel laughed
this explanation off as completely fantastic with no foundation
in truth.(3) Hynek felt the case was an undoubted meteor in his
report to ATIC of 30 April 1949. Menzel concurred and argued it
was part of either the Aquarid or Perseid meteor streams, based
mainly on the date.(4) This has been generally accepted among
sceptics.(5)

Loren Gross felt that the weakest point in this idea is the fact
that both pilots indicated the object changed course and they
were not fuzzy on the point. Most recently, Kevin Randle in
Scientific Ufology has offered a long attack on the meteor
explanation that focuses on the detail reported by both pilots
that square windows were visible. Noting that Hynek said
psychological research would be needed to decide the issue if
people would see square windows in a meteor's ion trail, Randle
did an experiment to settle the issue. The results: "People do
not normally create, in their minds, square windows on a streak
of light."(6) I suspect the thought that forms in most sceptics'
minds is that this experiment comes a couple decades too late.
There is no general presumption of portholes or windows in
saucers anymore. Randle also notes that the fact that Chiles
first suggested the craft was a jet job and that should have
skewed the interpretation into something closer to normal jets
and they don't have double rows of windows.(7) He avers: "There
is no solution for this case. That does not mean Chiles and
Whitted saw a craft built on another planet."(8) Randle does not
discuss why he does not think it is surely extraterrestrial if
it is unsolved, but it is easy enough to fill in the blanks.

Who believes alien spacecraft travel by means of jets or rocket
exhaust anymore? Those flames are inconsistent with how more
thoroughly alien spacecraft are held up, i.e. forces like
magnetism, anti-gravity, static electricity, dimensional drives,
or ultra-energy.(9) The craft was not a classical saucer, but
was described as "one of those fantastic Flash Gordon rocket
ships in the funny papers". For the record, Flash and Dr.
Zarkov's rocket did have lighted square windows, but did not
have a double-decker configuration.(10) The rockets in Buck
Rogers preferred a single row of round portholes.

The meteor explanation may well be wrong. The radiant of the
Delta Aquarids was off towards due south and sounds wrong for an
object that appears ahead and to the right of a plane bearing a
50 degree compass heading. The radiant of the Perseids is better
placed, but the 24 July date seems too early - borderline at
best. Jay Pasachoff's Contemporary Astronomy puts the limits at
25 July-18 August which, if it does not absolutely forbid a
meteor solution, renders the effort to tie the meteor to a
shower dubious.(11)

The fact that both pilots agreed the craft displayed longer
flames when it 'pulled up' certainly sounds like a jet to me. It
has been rumoured that Navy pilots would sometimes practice
intercepting enemy bombers in the dark by using unsuspecting
airliners as mock targets. When in a playful mood they would
turn off the external lights and come up real close. They'd turn
on the afterburner, creating a long rocket-like plume, and the
airliner would be left in the dust. The next day, they'd enjoy
the mystery UFO they created.(12) Without external lights, the
wings may have been hard to discern or, maybe, the roll angle
was such that the wings were not apparent. The windows might
have been reflections of light of the exhaust off surfaces along
the side of the plane. Who knows? I'm merely guessing here and I
am sure ufologists will offer a raft of reasons why this is
impossible.

It is easy enough to think of a dozen probable objections.
Frankly, if they want to argue it is a complete and total
mystery to them, so be it. The only points worth caring about:
1) Do you have a better explanation? 2) Do you think the case
really helps the ETH? Unless ufologists are prepared to give an
unequivocal 'Yes' to both questions and actually provide reasons
why their specific explanation is better, don't expect solutions
for the alleged problems. If you're half as smart as I think you
are, you can work out the answers yourselves. Really, folks, are
you impressed these days with alien craft spouting flames like
jets and rockets? Another mystery - yawn - we're so in awe -
zzzzzzz.

References

1. All quotes and material here and in the first paragraphs are
    taken from Loren Gross's UFOs: A History: Volume 1: July 1947
    - December 1948, Arcturus Book Service, 1982, 34-38

2. Ruppelt, Edward, The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects,
    Doubleday, 1956, 40-41

3. Menzel, Donald, Flying Saucers, Harvard University Press,
    1953, 14-15

4. Menzel, Donald, and Lyle Boyd, The World of Flying Saucers,
    Doubleday, 1963, 108-114

5. Condon report, 581; Sagan, Carl, and Thornton Page (eds),

    UFOs: A Scientific Debate, W.W. Norton, 1972, 12; Cohen,
    Daniel, The World of UFOs, Lippincott, 1978, 25-26

6. Randle, Kevin, Scientific Ufology, Avon, 1999, 191

7. Ibid., 192

8. Ibid., 165

9. "Conflicting Drives", unpublished file

10. Flash Gordon, Volume One: Mongo, the Planet of Doom, Kitchen
    Sink Press, 1990, 11

11. W.B. Saunders, 1977, 414

12. Klass, Philip J., UFOs: The Public Deceived, Prometheus,
    1983, 298-299

**********

UFO CRASHES: AN EMERGENT PATTERN

Gareth J. Medway


I have come to doubt whether it is possible to draw any
conclusions from individual UFO reports. It may be, however,
that a group of reports considered collectively can reveal
something significant. As briefly as possible, I shall try to
show this with the example of UFO crash stories.

It was on 14 June 1947 that William Brazel, a farmer near
Roswell, New Mexico, found a lot of silvery wreckage on his
land.(1) At first he did nothing, but on 8 July, following news
reports of flying saucers in the area, it occurred to him that
this might be one of them, and he reported it to the sheriff,
who passed it on to the Air Force, who told the press that the
mystery of the flying discs would now be solved. According to
the official report, however, when they got there it proved to
be merely a balloon. This they declared at a press conference,
and the incident was totally forgotten for over thirty years.
Their initial announcement suggests that, if they had captured
an alien spacecraft, they would have said so.

Nonetheless, persistent rumour, at least in California, had it
that a saucer had indeed crashed and that the Air Force were
busily learning the secrets of its technology: a 1949 memo by
Meade Layne of the Borderland Sciences Research Foundation (an
organisation mainly devoted to recording channelled messages
from "The Etherians", as they called the ufonauts) reported that
two scientists, one of them "Dr Weisberg, a physics professor
from a California university" had seen a crashed disc with six
dead occupants.

The source of Layne's information is unclear, but soon people
started to talk. In February 1950 Barney Barnett of Socorro, New
Mexico, told some visiting friends that when working near
Magdalena, New Mexico (nowhere near Roswell) he had chanced
across a crashed metallic disc, 25 to 30 feet across, with dead
bodies of small humanoids around it. Some archaeologists also
saw it. Then the military turned up and ordered them all
away.(2) This sequence of events was the template for many
subsequent stories.

On 8 March 1950 a lecture was given to students at the
University of Denver, Colorado, by a mysterious man who claimed
that a saucer had crashed at Aztec, New Mexico (hundreds of
miles from both Roswell and Socorro), in the spring of 1948. The
man was later identified as Silas Newton, and his testimony was
used as the basis for one of the first UFO books, Behind the
Flying Saucers, by Frank Scully. Silas Newton was a partner with
one "Dr Gee", who claimed that later two other saucers had
crashed in Arizona, and that he had been privileged to examine
all three. The first two both had a (dead) crew of sixteen, the
third only two. He believed they came from Venus. Dr Gee claimed
to be a magnetic scientist, though what he said on the subject
("there are 1,257 magnetic lines of force to the square
centimetre"(3)) was utter drivel.

Scully also described how Gee and Newton had developed a
magnetic device which could detect underground oil deposits. Two
years later, this led to their arrest on a charge of fraud. They
had been trying to sell their device for $800,000, but according
to police it was "a worthless piece of war surplus equipment"
that they had bought for $4.50.(4)

In the spring of 1952 one Bill Devlin was told by a soldier he
met on a train from Philadelphia to Washington that he had been
one of three drivers who took the remains of a saucer, along
with "sixteen or so" small bodies, from Aztec, New Mexico, to
Fort Riley, Kansas.(5) This is the other main type of crash
story, the military man who was there after the civilians were
cleared away, and who is sworn to secrecy by frightful
penalties, though willing to violate it to casual acquaintances.
His story of a saucer at Aztec with sixteen small bodies is
consistent with that in Scully's book, though since this had
become a bestseller, it is hardly independent confirmation.

In February 1954 President Eisenhower went on a golfing holiday
in Palm Springs, California. On 20 February he went off leaving
his entourage behind, and the press corps started speculating
wildly as to where he might have gone. In the evening a press
secretary explained that he had had to make an emergency trip to
a dentist. This did not satisfy the rumour mongers, who quickly
put it about that that the President had secretly gone to
Edwards Air Force Base to view a crashed flying saucer. Sure
enough, three months later Meade Layne received a letter from a
man named Gerald Light, who claimed to have visited the base
himself and seen no fewer than five different alien craft that
the Air Force was studying.(6)

Badly piloted UFOs kept on crashing, so it was said, in among
other places Arizona, California, Montana, Pennsylvania, British
Heligoland, Spitzbergen, Mexico, Sweden and Brazil. Invariably
the local military picked up the pieces, except in the case of a
four-foot saucer that fell on Silpho Moor near Scarborough,
Yorkshire, which was bought from the finder by a civilian and
put on display in a local fish and chip shop.(7) Though such
stories went out of fashion in the sixties, in the seventies
Leonard Stringfield renamed them "retrievals of the third kind",
and, having thus put the subject on a scientific basis, began a
collection of anecdotes: he learned for instance of a room in
the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago, "in which several
small humanoids were preserved in a glass case"; two disc-shaped
craft at Wright- Patterson, with four small bodies preserved in
chemicals; and the 1953 crash of an oval object near Kingman,
Arizona, in which was a dead four- foot tall alien.(8) By the
end of the decade he had accumulated nineteen retrieval stories,
all different.

According to one tale, in the late 1940s, the photographer
Nicholas von Poppen (d. 1975) had been flown to "Los Alamos"
airfield, where he was paid to photograph a flying saucer, 30
feet in diameter, which still had four dead aliens, dressed in
shiny black one-piece outfits, in their seats in front of a
control board. The only problem is that there was no air base at
Los Alamos; obviously, he was told that was where he was as part
of the cover-up.(9)

The problem, for the rigidly scientific ufologist, was that the
witnesses did not fully confirm each other's stories. In general
terms they agreed that alien spacecraft had crashed and come
into the possession of the military; but the crash sites were
all different, the bodies (varying in number from one up to
sixteen) and the wreckage were supposed to be stored in a
variety of Air Force bases and other places, and where dates
were given they did not match up. Yet soon this was to change.

Jesse Marcel, one of the officers who had picked up the wreckage
from Brazel's farm, used to talk about the incident, stating
that he believed that the object had indeed been an
extraterrestrial spacecraft. When Stanton T. Friedman was
interviewed on TV in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, on 21 February
1978, to promote his lecture tour "Flying Saucers Are Real", a
friend of Marcel's who worked there mentioned him. Friedman
often heard "Stories of acquaintances who claimed to know
someone who worked with a guy who said he knows where the bodies
of a 'flying saucer' crew are stored", but was always unable to
follow them up.(10) This was different, a real man who had
handled the wreckage.

Later that year Friedman also heard about Barney Barnett. He
passed both stories on to William Moore, who then needed a
subject to form a sequel to the bestseller he had co-written
with Charles Berlitz, The Philadelphia Experiment. A crashed UFO
was suitably sensational. Asked in an interview by Gray Barker
if he was investigating saucer crashes, Moore was reticent, but
said: "If I were working on this, I would take one particular
rumor, one of the more persistent ones, and devote all my
investigative efforts to that one case."(11)

Though the original newspaper reports, and an interview with
Marcel, were not nearly enough to fill a book, they were padded
out with crashed saucer rumours generally, glossing over the
discrepancies with regard to dates and places. They were able to
bring in Barney Barnett's claims by suggesting that the saucer
had exploded over Roswell, leaving the wreckage that was found
on Brazel's farm, but that most of it travelled another 125
miles to crash near Socorro. (Or perhaps, in a variant of the
urban legend, there were at that time only two UFOs in the whole
of the New Mexico airspace, and they collided with each other.)
Eisenhower's 1954 disappearance could have been to view the
Roswell saucer, they suggested, failing to explain why it was
seven years before the President took an interest.

The Roswell Incident was indeed a bestseller, so much so that
the subject has dominated ufology ever since. Suddenly, lots
more witnesses (and people who had heard the confessions of
witnesses since deceased) came forward with their Roswell, 1947,
stories, which none of hem had ever felt the need to tell
before, enabling the publication of a whole series of subsequent
books. Frankie Rowe said her fireman father told her he had been
on the way back from a fire when he came across the crash, and
saw "two little corpses and one person running around". Iris
Foster, of Taco, New Mexico, said one "Cactus Jack" had told her
of seeing a round object and four little bodies. More than one
archaeologist, who had been out looking for evidence of early
American settlements, testified: "I was there and saw
everything." Jim Ragsdale, who was there with his girlfriend,
saw the craft and several small beings, but, "While observing
the scene, we watched as a military convoy arrived and secured
the scene. As a result of the convoy's appearance we quickly
fled the area." So did the others.(12)

If all these people are telling the truth, then we have to
assume that a flying saucer crashed in a semi-desert region, and
for four weeks no one chanced to go near it but the farmer on
whose land it was. Then, suddenly, a whole crowd of people, who
were in the vicinity for a variety of reasons, archaelogists,
courting couples and so on, all happened to converge on the
wreckage by pure accident. Just then the army arrived,
preventing them from getting any proof. Such synchronicity would
be a remarkable anomalous phenomenon in itself.

In 1979 Sergeant (as he had been in 1947) Melvin E. Brown read
the Daily Mirror's review of The Roswell Incident, and told his
family - he had married an Englishwoman and lived in the UK - "I
was there. Everything in the article is true."(13) This would be
rather more compelling if he had told his family the story
before it had appeared in a national newspaper. It will have
been observed that, whilst no pattern emerges if one takes the
alleged dates of these crashes, there is a definite pattern if
one takes the dates on which the various stories are first known
to have been told.

The different accounts still do not agree: most say that the
craft was a disc, but Frank Kaufmann (who claimed to have
detected the crash on radar from White Sands) claimed it was
wedge shaped, and that there were four corpses and one living
being - others say three corpses, two corpses and one alive,
three corpses and one living, and so on and so forth.

Space does not permit me to deal with the claims of Philip Corso
and others to have been employed to "back engineer" the
wreckage, but I have often wondered at a technology that enables
the Greys to navigate safely across nine trillion miles of void
from Zeta Reticuli, only to smash into the ground on arrival.
Perhaps at this very moment American saucers, built in Area 51,
are crashlanding near military bases on the aliens' home planet.

References
1. Roswell Daily Record, 9 July (evening) 1947, quoted by Klass,
    Philip J., The Real Roswell Crashed Saucer Coverup,
    Prometheus Books, 1997, 20-21. The date of the initial
    discovery is often given, wrongly, as 5 July.

2. Berlitz, Charles, and William Moore, The Roswell Incident,
    Granada, 1980, 97-98, 57-63

3. Scully, Frank, Behind the Flying Saucers, Victor Gollancz,
    1950, 163

4. Jacobs, David Michael, The UFO Controversy in America,
    Signet, 1976, 51

5. Berliz and Moore, op. cit., 108-109

6. Good, Timothy, Alien Liaison, Century, 1991, 56-58

7. Randles, Jenny, UFO Retrievals, Blandford, 1995, chapter 4

8. Stringfield, Leonard H., Situation Red: The UFO Siege,
    Sphere, 1978, 190-195

9. Berlitz and Moore, op. cit., 99-101

10. Berliner, Don, and Stanton T. Friedman, Crash at Corona,
    Marlowe, New York, 1997, 9

11. Gray Barker's Newsletter, issue 9, December 1979

12. See for instance Hesemann, Michael, and Philip Mantle,
    Beyond Roswell, Michael O'Mara Books, 1997, 42-50

13. Ibid., 50-51

**********

LITERARY CRITICISM

Review by Christopher D. Allan

Michael David Hall and Wendy Ann Connors. Captain Edward J.
Ruppelt: The Summer of the Saucers - 1952, Rose Press
International, Albuquerque, New Mexico, 2000

For those who enjoy UFO history this is a superb account of the
early 1950s period (particularly 1952) in the USA, focusing on
the life and work of Edward J. Ruppelt, who was chief of Project
Blue Book from 1951-53 and whose book The Report on UFOs (1956)
became an early classic and is still often cited by believers
and sceptics alike.

The authors have, for the first time, published many useful
titbits gleaned from Ruppelt's private files and notebooks
(which run to some 700 pages) and have spoken to members of his
family and to many of his former colleagues, both military and
civilian. The result is a book which will interest any UFO
student of whatever persuasion. The only drawback is its
inevitable American bias, there being very little on UK or
foreign ufology.

There are many examples of letters to or from Ruppelt, pages of
discussions of the logistics of USAF organisation from 1947
onwards, accounts of top-level meetings on such topics as UFOs,
the Cold War, atomic energy, and atmospheric phenomena; plus
several new UFO case studies, as well as some old ones with
fresh updates. One of interest is the Kinross F-89 radar case,
which John Harney wrote about in Magonia ETH Bulletin No. 9,
under the heading "Disappearing Planes". The authors reveal,
through an aviation historian, that the Kinross tragedy had
nothing to do with UFOs, but much more to do with the fact that
the F-89 was a disastrous, unreliable aircraft. (It was scrapped
soon afterwards.)

We get new insights into the workings of the Battelle Institute
study, the CIA sponsored Robertson Panel, and the aftermath of
the famous Washington radar sightings. For the first time a
complete transcript is given of General Samford's press
conference of 29 July 1952.

It may not be generally known, for instance, that the Battelle
study and report (quoted by certain UFO proponents as proof of
UFO reality) had been completed in September 1953 but was not
released until October 1955, and even then it was dressed up as
Blue Book Special Report No. 14. The name "Battelle" was
deliberately suppressed at the time. When Ruppelt was asked
about the report after his own book came out he said he had
discarded the Battelle study as worthless in 1953. Similarly, it
seems Ruppelt was kept in the dark over the conclusions of the
Robertson Panel, although he participated during some of its
meetings. He was never shown its written findings while at Blue
Book, although its report was written in January 1953. The first
inkling of any written report was not until April 1958 when a
brief summary was released. The complete report, by Frederick C.
Durant (an associate member of the panel) did not appear until
1966. Ruppelt had carefully omitted in his book any mention of
the CIA who, as is now well known, was the instigator of the
Robertson Panel in the first place.

One curiosity is the "Lubbock Lights" case of autumn 1951,
involving repeated sightings of strange night lights over
Lubbock, Texas by four science professors, plus many other
people. The case did not publicly come to light until an account
appeared in Life magazine in April 1952. Ruppelt had
investigated the case at length but officially the lights were
left as unexplained. However, in his book he tells how a certain
scientist had later, privately, resolved the case but that he
(Ruppelt) could not divulge the details as the man had sworn him
to secrecy. In the revised edition of Ruppelt's book, however,
he reveals that the lights were identified as moths reflecting a
row of street lights.

Hall and Connors reveal that the scientist in question was none
other than one of the original professors (W.L. Ducker) who had,
after lot of experimentation, finally identified the lights as a
flight of plover. However, when he told Ruppelt of this he asked
for his identity to be kept secret. The irony was that Ruppelt
had first suggested to the professors, in 1951, that the objects
might be birds but they flatly rejected this idea! It was only
after repeated sightings of these lights (which reappeared
during 1952 and after) that Ducker proved Ruppelt was right in
the first place but, presumably, did not want his colleagues to
know this. The puzzling aspect is that Ruppelt gave a false
explanation in his revised book. Why? The authors cannot say,
and admit it is not a satisfactory ending to the story. However,
we can surmise that Ruppelt was still modestly trying to avoid
giving the impression that he was correct all along and still
wanted to credit an anonymous scientist with solving the case.
To divulge the true solution would give the show away. Hence the
false "solution". Unfortunately, Ruppelt's notes shed no further
light on how the "moths" explanation came about.

There is an interesting new story of Donald Menzel which the
authors describe as "a shocking story of security violations by
Menzel", where he obtained Blue Book files by unauthorised means
after first being refused them. It does not paint Menzel in a
favourable light.

Also included are incidents from the post-Ruppelt era, NICAP's
rise to fame in the late 1950s and the early attempts at
congressional hearings. As letters make clear, Ruppelt strongly
disapproved of Congress wasting its time over UFOs; he had a few
exchanges with Donald Keyhoe over this.

Finally, the authors prove conclusively, through documents and
Ruppelt's personal notes, that there was no official pressure
brought to bear on him either during the writing of his book or
its later revision. At no time did the USAF, the CIA or anyone
else seek to make him change his mind, reverse his views or
censor his book in any way, although he did, of course, submit
it for clearance. Indeed his letters show that he was always
sceptical of UFO reality, even when serving with Blue Book.

In early 1956 the vice-president of engineering at Northrop
Aircraft (Ruppelt's employer) even issued an internal memo to
staff praising, and giving publicity to, his book. This memo is
printed in full.

Unfortunately Ruppelt's health declined in the late 1950s and,
after two heart attacks, he died in September 1960 aged only 37.

Do not read this book expecting any "smoking gun" revelations.
There are no crashed saucers, no abductions and no underground
bases. Just a straightforward narrative with many interesting
quotes and insights into the early American UFO era. Strongly
recommended for all UFO historians.

**********

LETTER

My esteemed associate Hilary Evans's missive in Magonia
Supplement No. 34 is curious indeed. There is a good bit in it
with which I agree, causing me to dither a while before deciding
to take issue with the rest, which truly is curious.

I refer not to the gentle, benign, fin de siecle-like
condescension we colonials have with exasperated amusement come
to expect from your side of the Atlantic (did the Romans have to
suffer the Classical World equivalent from faded Athenians?).
Nor do I refer to Hilary's apparent confusion of the "feasts"
and "shows" of science fiction conventions (wherever staged)
with the stale doughnuts (if one is lucky) and unintended comedy
of many speakers at American UFO gatherings.

Nay, what I have in mind is his, on the one hand, taking to task
American ufologists for including cartoons in their works (thus
proving their lack of seriousness) and, on the other, crying out
for "even one major American UFO author who could stand back and
see the UFO phenomenon steadily and whole, for the extraordinary
mixture of sense and nonsense that it is!" - citing John Keel as
having come closest to this ideal. More confusion, to say the
least.

This confusion is distilled in Hilary's observation about "the
different tones of voice in the letters section of Jim Moseley's
Saucer Smear. If it's Chris Allan, or Tim Good [!], or Jenny,
then the subject is likely to be something at least halfway
serious: whereas the majority of the American letters are not
about UFOs but about personalities, calling names, slinging mud,
using d*rty w*rds." Clearly, Hilary and, perhaps, his
compatriots don't understand that Smear most often has nothing
to do with UFOs and bloody well nigh everything to do with
ufology/ufoology/UFOdumb, whereas our American nonsubscribers
most definitely do. Curious.

But take heart. There's a book coming next spring that just
might answer Hilary's prayer: Shockingly Close to the Truth! by
Jim Moseley and Yours Truly. We promise you at the very least an
"extraordinary mixture of sense and nonsense".

Karl T. Pflock,
Saucer Smear Contributing Editor and Fifth Columnist, Placitas,
New Mexico

**********

NOTES AND NEWS
from Nigel Watson

Weird Weekend

The new US Star Wars project is being created to fight the
secret war against the aliens. That's the reason given by
controversial ufologist, Tim Matthews, at a recent and rare
public appearance.

Speaking at the Weird Weekend held in Exeter by the Centre for
Fortean Zoology, on 16 June, Matthews didn't give much credit to
ufologists as they are mainly fixated on the ET hypothesis. As
for ufological sceptics, armchair theorists and Fortean Times
readers they are worse than Martian swamp scum.

He thinks that ufology focuses too much on individuals rather
than on the evidence itself, and as a consequence he would
rather not be associated with the subject (I'm sure the feeling
is mutual). He's gone as far as selling his expensive collection
of UFO aeronautical/military books at a car boot for �50. As a
kind of swan song to his UFO days he provided us with a story
that he believes is true:

Through a casual conversation unrelated to ufology, a widow of a
US four star General told him that one night many years ago her
late husband was called out to an 'incident' in Canada. The
General's behaviour, once happy-go-lucky, became morose after he
returned from investigating the incident. He never said much
about it except that he had been to a remote village where all
the graves had been opened up. He said that on his death he
wanted to be buried 12 feet deep. Is this a case of grave
robbing aliens? Do they feast on our dead bodies? Is someone's
imagination working at warp speed?

Matthews, despite disliking ETH believers does accept the ET
hypothesis. He is equally contradictory about some poltergeist
activity plaguing his home at the moment. Since a man died in
the house years ago he thinks any psychic investigators would
link it with his spirit. He thinks they, like ufologists, are
closed minded. Of course he's so open minded he'll believe
everything he tells himself.


Rumours

Remember Zigmund Adamski, who was found dead on a coal tip in
Todmorden in 1980? At the Exeter conference one of the attendees
had one explanation for it. Apparently some of Adamski's former
work mates discovered he had been responsible for atrocities
during World War Two; to scare him they locked him up (in a
mine-related building?). When he tried escaping he fell over and
killed himself. To cover their prank that back-fired, they
dumped his body and kept silent. Like most rumours this needs to
be taken at more than face value but it does sound more
reasonable than a botched alien abduction.


MAGONIA Supplement Letters and articles welcome. Please send all
contributions to the Editor: John Harney -
harney@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk









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   Aug > Aug 19

                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 22:44:48 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 11:41:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 02:20:12 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 23:32:38 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >><snip>

 >>>Jesse Marcel's site description works out at aprox 777,500 sqft

 >>I wonder how Marcel got 777,500 square feet of anything in the
 >>trunk of his little old car?

 >I don't think anybody has ever claimed that Marcel put _all_ of
 >the debris in his car. Apparently he just took _some_ of it back
 >to base and stopped by his house.

<snip>

Robert,

True, the bulk of their recovered debris Marcel recounts being
returned in Cavitt's vehicle. Dr Marcel Jnr recalls just a
couple of boxes of debris in the back of his father's Buick with
some other (poss larger) pieces being left in the trunk.

 >>>But even if it did have ML307's the numbers don't really add up
 >>>do they?

 >>No, they don't and they sure don't add up to what was collected,
 >>according to the witnesses and the only known pictures. I
 >>suggest that these huge numbers are strictly in the imaginations
 >>of believers who are building castles in the air.

 >But then again the _assumption_ is made that all the debris
 >recovered was both talked about and in the fort worth photos. As
 >I recall General Dubois said their was two sites and the weather
 >balloon was a cover story. Point being is that for the skeptics
 >to be able to deal with the General's and other's testimony, we
 >instantly have to find some way of discrediting the witness,
 >otherwise the imaginations may be solid.

Gen DuBose has given a variety of statements some of which are
contradictory but he seems to have been consistent in his
statements that the balloon story _was_ a cover up ordered
directly by Gen McMullen. And now thanks to the efforts of
Canadian RPIT member Andrew Lavoie we seem to have direct proof
of this cover up in action in information released from Fort
Worth Army Air Field during that afternoon.

At 5:30 pm on the 8th, The Dallas Morning News spoke with Maj
Edwin Kirton an Intelligence Officer at FWAAF, they received
from Kirton the firm, un-qualified weather balloon story.

At 6:17 pm the Dallas office of the FBI forwarded a teletype to
FBI headquarters regarding the debris found at Roswell, in some
examples of this FOIA release it can be seen that the contact at
FWAAF was this same Maj Kirton (though his name in the teletype
is spelt phonetically as Curtan). The tale he tells the FBI is
somewhat different from that given to the Dallas paper. Though
saying the debris _resembles_ that of a weather balloon he goes
on to relate that even after consultation with the Air Force's
technical people at Wright Field the weather balloon theory had
_not_ been "bourne out". The debris was being forwarded to
Wright Field.

Here we have a noticeable duplicity of statements, one story
given to the press, "it's a weather balloon", but another story
given to a Govt Agency, the FBI, "we thought it might be a
weather balloon but after checking with our technical people, it
doesn't seem to be".

And what has now come to light is that between the first AP wire
that broke the Roswell story to the world at 3:26pm Fort Worth
time, and 5:30pm when Kirton was giving out the firm balloon
story we now have a direct quote from Gen Ramey that gives that
_same_ _qualified_ story, but with a few more details than those
given to the FBI. In effect here we have _the_ story possibly
_before_ the cover up, given for press consumption, was set in
place.

In essence Ramey statement say's that he and the staff of FWAAF
_cannot_identify_ the debris brought from Roswell.

At some time between 3.26pm and 5.30pm when we know for sure the
cover story was being issued, a reporter from the Reuters news
agency got through by phone to Maj Edwin Kirton (yes the same
one) and was given a direct statement from Gen Ramey regarding
the debris.

Here is part of the Reuters article as printed on the 10th July
in a Canadian provincial paper.

--------

The object examined by the army authorities at Fort Worth was
stated to have been discovered last week by a rancher who stored
it until it was recovered by the 509th bomb intelligence men
stationed at Rowsell(original typo). Before Brigadier General
Rameys broadcast Major Edwin Kirtan, duty officer at Eighth Air
Force headquarters at Fort Worth, quoted him as saying:

"it looks like a hexagonal object covered with tinfoil or other
shining material suspended from a balloon of about twenty feet
diameter. It is possibly a weather balloon flown at the highest
altitude but none of the army men at this base recognize it as
an army type balloon."

-------

The article then goes on to relate Irving Newtons later ID of
the debris as a "ray wind target"

We have a few points to glean from the above statement, FWAAF
could not positively identify the metallic foil as "tinfoil"
they qualify it's description with "or other shining material".
There is also no mention of any the foil's paper backing if it
had have been an ML307 target.

We then have the statement, "but none of the army men at this
base recognize it as an army type balloon."

This is quite all encompassing statement "...but none of the
army men at this base...".

This is obviously said _before_ the 5:30pm call by the Dallas
Morning News as they got short shrift and the firm statement
that it _was_ just a weather balloon. And it also indicates
Ramey had been investigating the debris with his own resources
at FWAAF prior to the Reuters call, and wouldn't that of course
_include_ the weather staff on duty _that_afternoon_? After all
with suspicions it could be some type of weather device I would
have thought the  weather staff on duty at that time would have
been the first through the doors to check out the debris!. It
would have been the first line to eliminate in any
investigation.

So... why did it take Irving Newton, who didn't come on duty
until some 3hrs later, and so unaware possibly of all the
earlier investigation and fuss, to twig it was a Raywin???

Other than for public consumption, that is, remember Maj Kirton
_was_ issuing the balloon story long before Newton ever came on
shift.


Neil









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                  Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 23:28:15 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 11:44:10 -0400
Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Bruni


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 20:09:03 EDT
 >Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>THE RENDLESHAM FILE

 >>History in the making: British Government release UFO file on
 >>Britain's Most Famous UFO Incident

 >Congratulations, Georgina!!!

 >Well done. This will definitely throw the pelicanist debunkers
 >into a frightful panic. Lately they have been trying desperately
 >to force other lighthouse/lightship beams to fit the sighting
 >data but can never get the known terrain and measured compass
 >directions to fit - either one or the other stops them cold.


Dear Brad and List Members

Unfortunately, even these important files have been somewhat
misread, as only sceptics can do.

I was interested to see the post from Dave Clarke. This of
course was in response to my earlier post, and from the rather
sarcastic comments, I suspect I've upset him by breaking the
story first.

I've now seen Clarke et al's website, and to be fair, they have
made a decent stab at summarising some of the material in the
file. But once they move from summarisation to speculation,
things rapidly begin to go off track, especially in the analyses
by Jenny Randles and James Easton.

But all those involved in this new sceptical website have
misunderstood some of the material and have been selective in
their interpretation of other parts. There's much selective
quoting and several blatant errors. On occasion the data looks
as if its been massaged to fit their own pet theories, perhaps
to portray certain researchers in a favourable light and others
less favourably, while airbrushing others out of the story
altogether. This is a pity because this sort of point scoring
detracts from the real story.

To pick an example of sloppy research, much is made of Jenny
Randles' anonymous source (who gave second or third hand
information) at RAF Watton, while the testimony of ex radar
operator Nigel Kerr (see pages 39-40 of You Can't Tell The
People) is ignored. Jenny has made numerous errors, which is
strange considering all this updated information is in my book.
The next edition of UFO Magazine  (UK) will contain what list
members will find to be a more open minded summary and analysis
of the data (approximately 6,000 words)

Unfortunately, one major error is where Jenny Randles states
that DS8 acted as a "shop window". In fact the MOD file clearly
shows that DS8 worked alongside other departments, and were
privy to certain information that was not shared with senior RAF
and USAF personnel, or Members of Parliament. The fact that
certain matters appear not to have been followed up is open for
debate. We could speculate that those who held the job at the
time were not as proactive as their predecessors or those who
followed them. But we must also consider that the file refers to
certain telephone conversations between DS8 and other
departments, and although there are clues as to what was
discussed during these calls, we do not have all the facts.

James Easton makes similar mistakes, although as with Randles'
comments, an unstated aim seems to be an attempt to downplay the
role and views of Nick Pope. It is in their interest to do this
because Pope has consistently offered an insiders perspective on
ufology that contradicts the views of debunkers. The comments
from Randles and Easton are surely based on a brief skim through
the file from which most (but not all) of the documents have
been released. But Nick Pope worked on the entire file (and
numerous others) for three years and has confirmed to me that in
many respects Randles and Easton (and indeed Clarke and others
associated with this report) have simply misunderstood the way
in which the military and government work. On this I have to
agree.

As well as the internal documents, there are other revelations
in the file. List members might be interested to know that it
contains much public correspondence. Some of this is very
revealing, as certain researchers try to ingratiate themselves
with the MOD by stressing their scepticism and criticising those
who take a different view. Dave Clarke refers to one hilarious
letter from somebody who claimed to be in touch with a Sub Dwarf
civilisation, who intended to abduct senior Air Force personnel
from the bases, but he fails to mention an equally amusing
letter (dated 1983) from one of the researchers quoted on his
sceptical website. Giving an opinion of the Rendlesham Forest
case, this ufologist writes:

".....an indigenous intelligence to planet earth which in fact
is way beyond us in terms of most capacities and therefore
represent the real rulers of the world."

If you were seeking some answers, is this the kind of letter
that you would write to the MOD? And further more, if this is
the considered view of one of the people involved with this
site, I leave it to list members to draw their own conclusions
about the overall quality of the research and analysis that
these ufologists have carried out.

Of course, the real star of this story (not credited on this new
website) is former Chief of the Defence Staff, Lord Hill Norton.
I briefed him last year on my own research into the Rendlesham
Forest case, which involved interviews with MOD, RAF and USAF
sources. Based on this material, which was subsequently
presented in my book, Lord Hill Norton tabled a staggering
sixteen questions in parliament. (Check out the House of Lords
website, Hansard records for Written Questions and Answers from
January 2001 to April 2001). It is this pressure, coupled with
some internal MOD politics that I must keep private, that led to
the MOD decision to allow release of most (but not all) of the
file. Also worth mentioning is that the front cover of the file
reveals the date when it was recalled from the archives. This
was 1st November 2000, the same time that the MOD requested a
preview copy of my book for the attention of Defence Ministers
and senior MOD staff.

I'm sure that ufologists will appreciate the hard struggle
undertaken to get this file released.

And as I mentioned earlier, for a more open minded and accurate
analysis of the Rendlesham Forest file, may I urge you to read
my article in the September issue UFO Magazine (UK), which will
include feedback from senior Air Force personnel based at RAF
Bentwaters and Woodbridge at the time.


Georgina

"You Can't Tell The People".The Definitive Account of the
Rendlesham Forest UFO Mystery by Georgina Bruni. Published by
Sidgwick & Jackson Available in all good bookshops and on-line
at: www.amazon.co.uk Countries outside UK: www.netstoreusa.com









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   Aug > Aug 19

                        Re: Ramey's Debris - Skavhaug

From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 01:27:26 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 11:46:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Skavhaug


 >From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 17:47:39 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 13:03:32 -0400

 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris

<snip>

 >A short aside from above, Cavitt was said to have been driving a
 >"jeep carryall", being a Brit and not familiar with the term
 >"carryall" I was surprised to find out when I checked that's not
 >the small "jeep" vehicle that pops up in most WWII action
 >movies, but a much larger "station wagon" style vehicle, more
 >than enough room inside one of those to recover a  downed MOGUL
 >in itself, so how come they filled the carryall and Marcel's
 >Buick yet still left the larger part of the debris out there?.

 >Dodge's version of the Carryall:

http://www.thefortworthphotographs.freeserve.co.uk/images/dodge_carryall.jpg

 >Neil


Neil & List:

I've been studying the photos at this site:

http://www.thefortworthphotographs.freeserve.co.uk/ftw-pics/index.htm

i.e.:

- The 4 surviving UTA Images:

Top row (denoted photo A and B by myself):
Major Jesse A. Marcel holds the debris in Gen Ramey's office at
8th Air Force HQ Fort Worth Texas on the afternoon of July 8th
1947.

Bottom Row (photo C and D):
Gen Rodger Ramey, Gen Rodger Ramey and Col Thomas DuBose.

and,

- Bettmann/The Lost Ramey (photo E and F):

The other 2 images taken by Bond Johnson that afternoon:

A copy negative of the 2nd Ramey/Dubose "Grim pose" exists in
the Bettmann Archive in NY and though the negative is missing,
the 2nd RameyAlone "pose" was published in the July 10th edition
of The Fort Worth Star-Telegram.

- FWAAF Warrant Officer Irving Newton with the debris (photo G):

with the following excerpt:

"(...)It must be assumed that this photograph was taken soon
after Johnson took his set as if you look at the base of the
radiator beneath the window behind Newton you can see a paper
wrapped package, Johnson states that these were the packages the
debris was wrapped in. If you check in the Marcel images taken
by Johnson this self same package is there and in the Newton
Image has not moved or been disturbed from it's position in the
earlier shot. There are a number of missing articles from the
Newton image, the military cap and tie (thought to be Jesse
Marcel's) that are seen on top of the radiator in Johnson's
pictures are gone and more significantly, a number of pieces of
debris are no longer to be seen spread on the floor which were
there in the Johnson photographs. Upon examination these
"missing" debris items contained obvious markings or features
very inconsistent with the "weather balloon" story adopted by
the Air Force.(...)"

Thus, by studying these negatives _myself_ I have proposed the
following, regarding the photo's _chronological order_:

1. Photo F is taken first, in Ramey's office, while Col. DuBose
was properly dressed, with his jacket, cap and tie. He's also
holding a piece of paper, looking similar to the "Ramey
message". This can imply that he got/brought the message to the
office, and maybe he read it first (or, maybe he wrote it, as a
some sort of "quick report", to Gen. Ramey? I.e, the last line
on the Ramey message (line 9) reads (hand written):
DuBose....?). (The pieces of debris may have been
located/arranged on the floor by Marcel, in advance.)

2. Photo E, the next photo; DuBose takes off his jacket, tie and
cap, and puts the tie on the radiator, and the cap on the first
chair. He then sits down on the third chair from left. Then he
leaves the paper to Ramey - who's properly dressed "for the
photographers" - and who sits down (before or after reading the
message). (He won't sit down on the first chair, because of
DuBose's cap...)

I also think that the "badge" on Ramey's upper arm should be
worth studying more closely - under high magnification and
enhancement. (Maybe some design similarity with the seal..?)

(But, why does DuBose undress _in Ramey's office_, removing tie,
cap and jacket...in front of the photographers? Has he become
'distressed and unbalanced' after the events, after
reading/writing the message....?)

3. Photo C or D are taken afterwards, as the two are getting
more "relaxed". Is Ramey having a smoke? Is he having a smoke to
relax/"calm down" after having read the message/report? (From
DuBose...?)

4. Photo A or B are taken then; DuBose's tie is still on the
radiator. Marcel is also not "properly dressed", though. (I have
assumed that the cap and the tie are DuBose's.) He may be
removing the debris for further examinations elsewhere; we can
see that the foil/material he's holding is lacking some sort of
a beam/stick, after (my suggestion) having been mounted in a
tent-like fashion on the floor - by himself.

5. Then, later on, photo G is taken, after some of the pieces of
debris have been removed by Marcel.

I have assumed/proposed here that DuBose brought the message to
Ramey, i.e., from Colonel to General, maybe as a report.

(Maybe JB Johnson can verify some of these
assumptions/speculations?)


Regards,

Asgeir










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   Aug > Aug 19

             Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 18:12:57 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 11:50:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - McCoy


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 15 Aug 2001 12:26:59 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure
 >>Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 18:55:54 -0700

 >>>Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 07:48:35 -0400
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>>>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>>>Date: 13 Aug 2001 14:06:22 -0700
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>>Subject: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Day 16

 ><snip>

 >>Tell me does Dr. Greer support this? has he heard about it? how
 >>about it Mr. Cameron?

 >Dr. Greer is aware of this. Lara is very good at keeping the
 >lines of communication open.

If he is indeed aware has he a position on the possibility of
the first UFO disclosure martyr?

 >Some indirect contact has taken place with people who have been
 >associated with the Disclosure Project. Whether this has Dr.
 >Greer's direction I do not know.

Ok, fine, but why isn't Dr. Greer fully capable of taking the
disclosure issue on himself without the need of useless, futile,
acts of self-injury to prove what?

I agree with John and Kelly on this one (re; their previous
posts to Lara.)

Years ago, I knew of a woman who went on a hunger strike to get
James Watt out as Secretary of the Interior. She didn't know she
was pregnant. She miscarried, and nearly died anyway. Ol'
Clearcut didn't know or cared.

Point: No politician cares, not about something as immaterial to
voting as the 'UFO Bloc' (more like soft sponge than Bloc I
might add).

 >There has been no direct contact between the two, and according
 >to Lara it may be better if there isn't. Her concern is the
 >honesty of George Bush. UFOs is only a small part of the overall
 >secrecy she objects to.


 >Hope this helps,


Yes, it does, but if there isn't direct contact, how is the good
Doctor indirectly aware that the lines of communication are open
through his people that he is in indirect communication with and
with his indirect direction?

Sorry I asked.

GT McCoy











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   Aug > Aug 19

                    Re: Canadian Reports Increase - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 10:41:04 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 11:56:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Canadian Reports Increase - Young


 >From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA>
 >Subject: Canadian Reports Increase
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 12:40:28 -0500 (CDT)

<snip>

 >2001 has seen several notable cases reported so far, such as:

 > - a 10-foot crater found in a field in Alberta, possibly
      connected to witnesses seeing a "fire tornado" in the sky;

Chris:

Any more details on this?  Could this have been a meteor?

 > - the re-entry of a Russian rocket booster during the peak of
      the Perseid meteor shower last weekend, seen at the same time
      as triangular formations of UFOs;

<snip>

 > - two people in Surrey, BC, saw a red ball of light drop
      material like "molten red wax" as it moved eastward;

Any chance this could be a meteor fireball? Date, Time?

 >  - two objects seen for more than an hour moving slowly through
      the sky over Conception Bay, Newfoundland.

Any information on the date/time and direction of these?


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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                    Re: Canadian Reports Increase - Jones

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 16:47:35 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 12:07:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Canadian Reports Increase - Jones


 >From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA>
 >Subject: Canadian Reports Increase
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 12:40:28 -0500 (CDT)


<snip>

Hi Chris, Errol, Everyone...

Sounds like you have had a very interesting year Chris.

Any chance of seeing a write up of the cases that you mentioned
please?

 >2001 has seen several notable cases reported so far, such as:

 > - a 10-foot crater found in a field in Alberta, possibly
 >   connected to witnesses seeing a "fire tornado" in the sky;

 > - the re-entry of a Russian rocket booster during the peak of
 >   the Perseid meteor shower last weekend, seen at the same time
 >   as triangular formations of UFOs;

 > - an anonymous report from someone claiming to be an Ontario
 >   Provincial Police officer, noting that four people watched in
 >   amazement as five alien beings in white robes took soil
 >   samples in a wooded area near Fergus, Ontario;

 > - two people in Surrey, BC, saw a red ball of light drop
 >   material like "molten red wax" as it moved eastward;

 > - two objects seen for more than an hour moving slowly through
 >   the sky over Conception Bay, Newfoundland.



Regards

--

    In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                         Sean Jones
               http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/








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   Aug > Aug 19

                Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
Date: 19 Aug 2001 10:19:23 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 13:34:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure
 >Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 18:12:57 -0700

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: 15 Aug 2001 12:26:59 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 ><snip>

 >>Some indirect contact has taken place with people who have been
 >>associated with the Disclosure Project. Whether this has Dr.
 >>Greer's direction I do not know.

 >Ok, fine, but why isn't Dr. Greer fully capable of taking the
 >disclosure issue on himself without the need of useless, futile,
 >acts of self-injury to prove what?

Why do you assume Greer is not capable of taking on disclosure
without Lara?

 >I agree with John and Kelly on this one (re; their previous
 >posts to Lara.)

 >Years ago, I knew of a woman who went on a hunger strike to get
 >James Watt out as Secretary of the Interior. She didn't know she
 >was pregnant. She miscarried, and nearly died anyway. Ol'
 >Clearcut didn't know or cared.

 >Point: No politician cares, not about something as immaterial to
 >voting as the 'UFO Bloc' (more like soft sponge than Bloc I
 >might add).

100 years ago no politician cared about the female vote, or the
black vote. 25 years ago no politician cared about the gay vote.
So what is the point you are struggling to make?

 >>There has been no direct contact between the two, and according
 >>to Lara it may be better if there isn't. Her concern is the
 >>honesty of George Bush. UFOs is only a small part of the overall
 >>secrecy she objects to.

 >>Hope this helps,

 >Yes, it does, but if there isn't direct contact, how is the good
 >Doctor indirectly aware that the lines of communication are open
 >through his people that he is in indirect communication with and
 >with his indirect direction?

What do you propose Dr. Greer do? 1) break into her house in the
middle of her night and force feed her? 2) lock her in her room
till she eats? 3) Have her arrested? 4) Have her killed? 5)
Phone her and order her to stop immediately?

Last time I checked the United States was still a free country
where people can do as they please.

Lara does not have to feel the scolding of Greer to stop. She
gets enough of it from the UFO community. Despite my warning
about this when she started she expressed on a radio show last
night, shock at how people are treated in this community.

Some people associated with the Disclosure Project have
approached Lara with offers to help. As far as I know no one in
the Disclosure Project has attacked her for her actions.

Grant


"Are you ready for the revolution?"
Lara Johnstone, a California woman who began a Hunger Strike for
Disclosure on July 28th.









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   Aug > Aug 20

                Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 14:19:36 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:46:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 19 Aug 2001 10:19:23 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure
 >>Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 18:12:57 -0700

 >>>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>>Date: 15 Aug 2001 12:26:59 -0700
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >><snip>

 >>>Some indirect contact has taken place with people who have been
 >>>associated with the Disclosure Project. Whether this has Dr.
 >>>Greer's direction I do not know.

 >>Ok, fine, but why isn't Dr. Greer fully capable of taking the
 >>disclosure issue on himself without the need of useless, futile,
 >>acts of self-injury to prove what?

 >Why do you assume Greer is not capable of taking on disclosure
 >without Lara?

 >>I agree with John and Kelly on this one (re; their previous
 >>posts to Lara.)

 >>Years ago, I knew of a woman who went on a hunger strike to get
 >>James Watt out as Secretary of the Interior. She didn't know she
 >>was pregnant. She miscarried, and nearly died anyway. Ol'
 >>Clearcut didn't know or cared.

 >>Point: No politician cares, not about something as immaterial to
 >>voting as the 'UFO Bloc' (more like soft sponge than Bloc I
 >>might add).

 >100 years ago no politician cared about the female vote, or the
 >black vote. 25 years ago no politician cared about the gay vote.
 >So what is the point you are struggling to make?

 >>>There has been no direct contact between the two, and according
 >>>to Lara it may be better if there isn't. Her concern is the
 >>>honesty of George Bush. UFOs is only a small part of the overall
 >>>secrecy she objects to.

 >>>Hope this helps,

 >>Yes, it does, but if there isn't direct contact, how is the good
 >>Doctor indirectly aware that the lines of communication are open
 >>through his people that he is in indirect communication with and
 >>with his indirect direction?

 >What do you propose Dr. Greer do? 1) break into her house in the
 >middle of her night and force feed her? 2) lock her in her room
 >till she eats? 3) Have her arrested? 4) Have her killed? 5)
 >Phone her and order her to stop immediately?

 >Last time I checked the United States was still a free country
 >where people can do as they please.

 >Lara does not have to feel the scolding of Greer to stop. She
 >gets enough of it from the UFO community. Despite my warning
 >about this when she started she expressed on a radio show last
 >night, shock at how people are treated in this community.

 >Some people associated with the Disclosure Project have
 >approached Lara with offers to help. As far as I know no one in
 >the Disclosure Project has attacked her for her actions.

 >Grant


 >"Are you ready for the revolution?"


Dear Grant, List, Errol;

Excellent post and even more excellent logic, Grant.

This is a very opinionated place to live. No, not UpDates, but
the UFO community. Those who are most vocal other than me, tend
to set themselvesup as spokesmen and spokeswomen for everyone.
Sometimes we are treated like children... "Now, now... mustn't
do that. Might ruin your health!" in one breath. In the other,
"Go ahead, make a damned fool of yourself."

Depends more on how long you've been hanging around than on what
the issue is. Benn around a long time? You are anathema when you
do something counter to opinion. When you've been around a short
time, you are gently chided. But the chiding sets up who you are
supposd to be and who the chiders are supposed to be. Kings and
queens of the hill.

I mean it's not like you just doused yourself with gasoline and
are attempting to light a match or anything. But common sense
appears to elude us sometimes. So, in defense of Lara's common
sense and decent sensibility, I applaud you efforts to make a
statement that no one here would likely make. Put your entire
self on the line.

Good show, lady. However these words need not be said for you,
Lara. They need to be said for those who would do to you, what
they do best in general. Control.

I wish you health and love. It's just that here, you will
probably die ten thousand deaths on line before you croak of old
age in about fifty years.

Rest in Pieces. I mean that. When it's all over, rest in Reese's
Pieces. "And when it's all over, I'd just as soon be on my way,
up to some paradise, where the trout streams flow and the air is
nice. And ride a horse along the trail. But then they put him in
a jail house. And tried to turn a man into a mouse."


Lady Hurricaine lover,

Jim Mortellaro








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   Aug > Aug 20

                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 15:03:51 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:59:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Rudiak


 >From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 01:27:26 +0200

 >>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 17:47:39 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 13:03:32 -0400

 >Neil & List:

 >I've been studying the photos at this site:

 >http://www.thefortworthphotographs.freeserve.co.uk/ftw-pics/index.htm

 >i.e.:

 >- The 4 surviving UTA Images:

 >Top row (denoted photo A and B by myself):
 >Major Jesse A. Marcel holds the debris in Gen Ramey's office at
 >8th Air Force HQ Fort Worth Texas on the afternoon of July 8th
 >1947.

 >Bottom Row (photo C and D):
 >Gen Rodger Ramey, Gen Rodger Ramey and Col Thomas DuBose.

 >and,

 >- Bettmann/The Lost Ramey (photo E and F):

 >The other 2 images taken by Bond Johnson that afternoon:

 >A copy negative of the 2nd Ramey/Dubose "Grim pose" exists in
 >the Bettmann Archive in NY and though the negative is missing,
 >the 2nd RameyAlone "pose" was published in the July 10th edition
 >of The Fort Worth Star-Telegram.

 >- FWAAF Warrant Officer Irving Newton with the debris (photo G):

<snip>

 >Thus, by studying these negatives _myself_ I have proposed the
 >following, regarding the photo's _chronological order_:

 >1. Photo F is taken first, in Ramey's office, while Col. DuBose
 >was properly dressed, with his jacket, cap and tie. He's also
 >holding a piece of paper, looking similar to the "Ramey
 >message". This can imply that he got/brought the message to the
 >office, and maybe he read it first (or, maybe he wrote it, as a
 >some sort of "quick report", to Gen. Ramey? I.e, the last line
 >on the Ramey message (line 9) reads (hand written):
 >DuBose....?). (The pieces of debris may have been
 >located/arranged on the floor by Marcel, in advance.)

You seem to be confusing Gen. Ramey with Col. Dubose. Dubose is
never dressed up with his cap and tie and never holds the
message. The man all dressed up and crouching down by the debris
and holding the message in his left hand is Gen. Ramey in photos
C - F. It is _not_ Col. Dubose in photo F -- it is Ramey.

The last line on the Ramey message (line 9) is not hand-written
-- it is typed (though there is handwriting underneath that
slants upward and crosses the end of the signature. The
signature line is definitely not that of Dubose. I think it says
"RAMEY" though others claim it says "TEMPLE".

 >2. Photo E, the next photo; DuBose takes off his jacket, tie and
 >cap, and puts the tie on the radiator, and the cap on the first
 >chair. He then sits down on the third chair from left. Then he
 >leaves the paper to Ramey - who's properly dressed "for the
 >photographers" - and who sits down (before or after reading the
 >message). (He won't sit down on the first chair, because of
 >DuBose's cap...)

Yes, it is Dubose seated in photo E, just as he is in photo D,
but the dressed-up man crouching down in photo F is Ramey,
exactly the same as in photos C, D, and E. Dubose never takes
off his jacket, tie, and cap, because he never has them on. I'm
surprised you could get confused about this.

 >I also think that the "badge" on Ramey's upper arm should be
 >worth studying more closely - under high magnification and
 >enhancement. (Maybe some design similarity with the seal..?)

Probably just a standard AAF arm patch. What do you think this
would tell us?

 >(But, why does DuBose undress _in Ramey's office_, removing tie,
 >cap and jacket...in front of the photographers? Has he become
 >'distressed and unbalanced' after the events, after
 >reading/writing the message....?)

No, because he never "undresses." You have confused the
dressed-up Ramey in photo F with the "undressed" Dubose in
photos D and E.

 >3. Photo C or D are taken afterwards, as the two are getting
 >more "relaxed". Is Ramey having a smoke? Is he having a smoke to
 >relax/"calm down" after having read the message/report? (From
 >DuBose...?)

You draw some very odd conclusions from so little. Looks to me
that Ramey just has his right hand in front of his face in photo
C. Would the General sneak a smoke in the middle of a photo
session with a civilian reporter?

 >4. Photo A or B are taken then; DuBose's tie is still on the
 >radiator. Marcel is also not "properly dressed", though. (I have
 >assumed that the cap and the tie are DuBose's.) He may be
 >removing the debris for further examinations elsewhere; we can
 >see that the foil/material he's holding is lacking some sort of
 >a beam/stick, after (my suggestion) having been mounted in a
 >tent-like fashion on the floor - by himself.

 >5. Then, later on, photo G is taken, after some of the pieces of
 >debris have been removed by Marcel.

How do you draw the conclusion that Marcel removed material?

 >I have assumed/proposed here that DuBose brought the message to
 >Ramey, i.e., from Colonel to General, maybe as a report.
 >
 >(Maybe JB Johnson can verify some of these

Your assumption that Dubose brought Ramey the message is
unwarranted, since Dubose is never pictured holding the message,
as you propose. You have confused Gen. Ramey and Dubose in one
of the photos.


David Rudiak










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   Aug > Aug 20

               Johnstone Takes ET Hunger Strike To White House

From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
Date: 19 Aug 2001 16:54:06 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:07:59 -0400
Subject: Johnstone Takes ET Hunger Strike To White House


Lara Johnstone to take ET hunger strike to White House
EcoNews Service, Vancouver, BC

By Alfred Webre

PORTLAND, OR - Lara Johnstone on July 28, 2001 began a hunger
strike to request President George W. Bush to fulfill his
campaign promise and make public the truth about UFOs and
Extraterrestrials.

On August 18, 22 days into her hunger strike, Lara announced on
the live Ground Zero show (1080KOTK - Portland) that she will
take her Presidential hunger strike to Washington, D.C. and the
White House, as a daily reminder to President Bush.

"I am asking President Bush to fulfill his campaign promise, and
make public information on U.S. government involvement with
Extraterrestrial craft, technologies, and civilizations by
supporting the Disclosure witnesses who are ready to testify
before the U.S. Congress about their extensive knowledge of the
Extraterrestrial presence," says Johnstone.

Johnstone is referring to the approximately 100 military and
corporate Disclosure witnesses who have volunteered videotaped
testimony about UFOs and Extraterrestrials. Many of these
witnesses are subject to security oaths, and would require
Presidential or Congressional immunity to testify in public
before the U.S. Congress.

According a letter Lara wrote to her Congresswoman,
Congressional Black Caucus member Barbara Lee (D - Oakland,
CA.), "These numerous recorded witnesses constitute only a small
portion of a vast pool of identified present of former military,
intelligence, corporate, aviator, flight control, law
enforcement officers, scientists and other witnesses, who will
come forward when subpoenaed to testify at Congressional
Hearings. Without a grant of immunity releasing them from their
security oaths, many such unimpeachable witnesses fear to speak
out."

Ms. Johnstone used to work for Peggy Noonan, the former
speechwriter to Presidents Ronald Reagan and George Bush, Sr. In
writing President George W. Bush on July 26, she said, "I recall
she wrote a speech for your father about a 'thousand points of
light'. Can we shed a thousand points of light in this world? If
so, we need to open up the dark secrets that keep us in fear
from each other. It won't be easy, and will take a huge amount
of courage, honesty, responsibility and forgiveness, from all
six billion of us."

About George W. Bush, the 35 year-old Johnstone says, "Now, I am
not particularly a fan of Mr. Bush, however, the more I think
about what he said to Mr. Huffer (twice) I am convinced that he
wants to tell the people the truth!"

"But if those who want him to tell the truth, they are now going
to have to get off their armchairs and let him know!" Johnstone
adds.

Johnstone is referring to statements by then Governor George
Bush to former U.S. Army Security Agency member Charles Huffer
during a 2000 presidential campaign stop. Huffer asked both
Governor Bush and Dick Cheney, who was also present, as to
whether they would release government secrets regarding UFOs and
Extraterrestrials if elected. This reporter witnessed that
exchange, as broadcast by CNN.

On July 28, 2000, Huffer approached Governor Bush and Mr. Cheney
in Springdale, Ark. and asked Bush, "would [you] finally tell us
what is going on with UFOs?" Governor Bush replied, "Sure I
will." The question and Bush's answer were recorded by ABC NEWS
and broadcast on Nightline and more completely on CNN the next
day. On July 29, the Washington Post published part of an
interview with Charles Huffer about the exchange.

On the videotape, Mr. Bush is clearly seen stating that release
of the UFO information would be the first thing he would do,
while pointing to Mr. Cheney. Later, when asked by Huffer if he
would really release the UFO materials, Governor Bush replied,
"Yes sir," a reply that Huffer states he also has on audiotape.

Neither Mr. Bush nor Mr. Cheney have responded directly to Mr.
Huffer's follow-up on their campaign promise. In a letter to
Charles Huffer dated July 16, 2001, Vice President Cheney's
office stated they were referring all questions in the matter to
NASA. NASA in turn responded to Mr. Huffer in an August 1, 2001
letter, stating, "NASA has no program for the investigation of
UFOs, nor does the Agency have any factual evidence of the
existence of the existence of intelligent extraterrestrial
life."

Lara's hunger strike first began, reporter Grant Cameron writes,
after " July 26, 2001, [when] Lara Johnstone wrote a letter to
President George Bush in support of over 100 Extraterrestrial
Disclosure Witnesses who had come forward to tell of their
involvement in the cover-up of the UFO story by the government.
Lara stated in her letter that she would support her request for
disclosure with a hunger strike. Now, more than three weeks
later there is still no reply from President Bush, or any one
else at the White House. There is not even an acknowledgment
that the letter arrived."

The non-profit Disclosure Project on May 9, 2001 held a National
Press Club conference in Washington, DC to present live
testimony from 20 high-level military and corporate witnesses to
Extraterrestrial phenomena. According to the Disclosure Project,
" The event was live webcast, and at 9 a.m. over 250,000 people
were waiting on-line for the press conference to begin. The next
biggest webcast event at the National Press Club was less than
25,000. The first hour of the conference was 'electronically
jammed' according to the president of ConnectLive, the company
that webcasts all National Press Club events."

On Monday, August 13, Lara took her hunger strike to the steps
of the federal courthouse in Oakland, to petition her
Congresswoman, Barbara Lee to write a letter to President Bush
sharing Lara�s request for Extraterrestrial Disclosure.

In her hand-delivered letter to Congresswoman Lee, Lara states,
"As you know, the recorded testimony of scores of military,
government and other witnesses to Unidentified Flying Objects
and Extraterrestrial events and projects is strong evidence of
the existence of an UFO/Extraterrestrial presence on and around
Earth. This recorded testimony consists of dozens of first-hand,
often top-secret witnesses to UFO and Extraterrestrial events,
internal UFO-related government projects and covert activities,
space-based weapons programs and covert, reverse-engineered
energy and propulsion system projects. The technologies that are
of an Extraterrestrial origin, when publicly released within a
planned transition period, will provide solutions to global
environmental and security challenges."

Johnstone requested Congresswoman Lee to support a ban on
space-based weapons. "Our generation of voters and leaders are
responsible for this once in a lifetime decision -- to ban
space-based weapons so that we will be permitted to join the
peaceful travelers in the universe," Lara wrote.

On July 26, Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich (D.-Cleveland)
announced his intention to introduce legislation banning
space-based weapons. "The time has come to ban the further
weaponization of space," Congressman Kucinich said. "We must
work toward the elimination of all nuclear weapons, and an end
to policies which cause this country to move toward the
weaponization of space. I was pleased with the recent news from
our neighbor to the north that Canada is ready to join an
international effort to prohibit weapons in space. It is time
for the United States to take the lead and end the weaponization
of space."

Lara's letter to Congreewoman Lee continues, "The legislation to
ban space-based weapons will prohibit acts of war against
Extraterrestrial civilizations, which have proven to be
concerned about nuclear and weapons industry, but also have
proven they are not to be hostile. The comprehensive legislation
will transform the terrestrial war industry into a world
cooperative military (without space weapons), civil, and
commercial space industry. This will provide unprecedented
benefits and opportunities to all on Earth and in space."

Lara's involvement with the Extraterrestrial issue began,
according to reporter Grant Cameron, on July 22, 2001, "when Dr.
Steven Greer arrived in San Francisco to make a presentation of
his traveling Disclosure Project. The event was held at the huge
Masonic Auditorium. Among the 2,000 people in the audience was a
woman by the name of Lara Johnstone.

"Lara was a bit skeptical of the whole extraterrestrial thing,"
writes Cameron. "She had no background in Ufology. She had never
had a sighting. A friend sent her an e-mail about the local
Disclosure Event. Lara visited the Disclosure web site on the
Internet. After reading the objective she decided to attend. "I
never before really 'believed'," Lara wrote to President George
Bush, "in �verifiable evidence' of extraterrestrial visits." The
Disclosure event turned out to be a "reality check" for Lara.

"During the event the two hour Disclosure testimony videotape
was shown," Cameron states, "This tape, produced by the
Disclosure project, contains highlights of over 100 hours of
testimony that had been collected from interviews with dozens of
U.S. Government, industrial, and military witnesses to UFO and
extraterrestrial events and secret 'black-ops' projects.

"Lara decided action was necessary," Cameron states. "She chose
a form of protest that she was familiar with - a hunger strike.
In late 2000 Lara had used this protest method successfully
against the state of California. Lara described her first hunger
strike protest, 'I went on a hunger strike was against the CA
Department of Corrections and Gov. Gray Davis. After 25 days,
they bowed, admitted -- in writing -- what I had alleged, and
what they had 'said', but not in writing. Before the press
conference, the department head of all of California's prisons
came up to me and went ballistic. He started screaming 'Who do
you think you are, 'How dare you?' and on and on! He did not
like being called up by the South African media, asked to answer
very difficult questions regarding how he runs his prisons!'"
The 35 year-old Johnstone, who lives in Oakland, Ca. Is
originally from South Africa.

Asked if the hunger strike had affected her medically, Johnstone
stated during the KOTK program, "I am carrying out this hunger
strike with an open mind, and on a day-to-day basis," Johnstone
stated during the KOTK program, which included a public appeal
for medical personnel to monitor her daily progress.

Lara Johnstone is clear that she wants to provide President
George W. Bush with a clear choice about releasing UFO and
Extraterrestrial information. " If we choose to fight, bicker,
find blame and pre-judge, or whatever, well we will only get
more of the same and get nowhere very fast!" she said. "We -- as
George Bush does -- have a choice! We can take it screaming at
him, and be sure he is not going to have the support to tell the
truth, or we can support him, and be prepared to stand committed
to be responsible for helping people understand!"

Asked when she would be arriving on her Presidential hunger
strike to Washington, DC, Lara stated "I may arrive around the
time of the anti-globalization protests at the International
Monetary Fund (IMF) meetings starting September 28."

"On my way to the White House, I may stop where others feel I
can be if use," she adds. "In New York, I plan to sit in on
hunger strike at the offices of President Bill Clinton in
Harlem. He was very supportive of extraterrestrial Disclosure,
but was blocked. I also will definitely take this hunger strike
to the United Nations in New York."

On July 26, Canada's Foreign Minister John Manley stated that
"Canada would be very happy�to launch an initiative to see an
international convention preventing the weaponization of space."
Canada's lead in initiating a United Nations treaty banning
space-based weapons is a marked break with the Bush
administration on the issue of preventing an arms race in space.

When asked about how her Presidential hunger strike would unfold
in Washington, DC, Lara says, "Well, I am just starting to think
about that. I may ask to join Proposition One in a vigil in
front of the White House." Proposition One is a grassroots
movement for disarmament of nuclear weapons and the conversion
of nuclear and other arms industries to provide for human and
environmental needs."

"My hunger strike is really about the truth - be that about the
environment, or about extraterrestrial Disclosure. If there were
high-level environmental witnesses coming forth to reveal
testimony about ecological dangers, they would receive a great
deal of public support, both within the environmental movement
and with the public. The same degree to support should be given
the Disclosure witnesses. I am grateful for all the work the
Disclosure witnesses have done, the work everyone has done! "

This EcoNews story is based on reporting by Clyde Lewis, Holly
Conley, Grant Cameron, Ernie Vega, and Alfred Webre.

CONTACT: 604-733-8134
"Lara Johnstone to take ET hunger strike to White House"
NEWS STORY: http://www.ecologynews.com/cuenews38.html

KEY LINKS:


Lara Johnstone's Bush/UFO Disclosure Website
http://www.amandla.org/ufo/

Lara Johnstone's Story
http://www.ecologynews.com/cuenews33.html

Ground Zero: Clyde Lewis, Host - Radio Archives
http://www.clydelewis.com

Disclosure Project Website
http://www.disclosureproject.org

Proposition One
http://www.prop1.org/

Washington Post Story: "Bush, Cheney Come Calling In Arkansas"
http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A196-2000Jul28.html

---

"Are you ready for the revolution?"
Lara Johnstone, a California woman who began a Hunger Strike for
Disclosure on July 28th.









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   Aug > Aug 20

                        Re: Ramey's Debris - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 20:29:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:11:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Aldrich


 >From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 01:27:26 +0200

 >>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 17:47:39 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 13:03:32 -0400

 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris

 ><snip>

 >>A short aside from above, Cavitt was said to have been driving a
 >>"jeep carryall", being a Brit and not familiar with the term
 >>"carryall" I was surprised to find out when I checked that's not
 >>the small "jeep" vehicle that pops up in most WWII action
 >>movies, but a much larger "station wagon" style vehicle, more
 >>than enough room inside one of those to recover a downed MOGUL
 >>in itself, so how come they filled the carryall and Marcel's
 >>Buick yet still left the larger part of the debris out there?.

 >>Dodge's version of the Carryall:

http://www.thefortworthphotographs.freeserve.co.uk/images/dodge_carryall.jpg

 >Neil & List:

 >I've been studying the photos at this site:

 >http://www.thefortworthphotographs.freeserve.co.uk/ftw-pics/index.htm

 >i.e.:

 >- The 4 surviving UTA Images:

 >Top row (denoted photo A and B by myself):
 >Major Jesse A. Marcel holds the debris in Gen Ramey's office at
 >8th Air Force HQ Fort Worth Texas on the afternoon of July 8th
 >1947.

 >Bottom Row (photo C and D):
 >Gen Rodger Ramey, Gen Rodger Ramey and Col Thomas DuBose.

 >and,

 >- Bettmann/The Lost Ramey (photo E and F):

 >The other 2 images taken by Bond Johnson that afternoon:

 >A copy negative of the 2nd Ramey/Dubose "Grim pose" exists in
 >the Bettmann Archive in NY and though the negative is missing,
 >the 2nd RameyAlone "pose" was published in the July 10th edition
 >of The Fort Worth Star-Telegram.

 >- FWAAF Warrant Officer Irving Newton with the debris (photo G):

 >with the following excerpt:

 >"(...)It must be assumed that this photograph was taken soon
 >after Johnson took his set as if you look at the base of the
 >radiator beneath the window behind Newton you can see a paper
 >wrapped package, Johnson states that these were the packages the
 >debris was wrapped in. If you check in the Marcel images taken
 >by Johnson this self same package is there and in the Newton
 >Image has not moved or been disturbed from it's position in the
 >earlier shot. There are a number of missing articles from the
 >Newton image, the military cap and tie (thought to be Jesse
 >Marcel's) that are seen on top of the radiator in Johnson's
 >pictures are gone and more significantly, a number of pieces of
 >debris are no longer to be seen spread on the floor which were
 >there in the Johnson photographs. Upon examination these
 >"missing" debris items contained obvious markings or features
 >very inconsistent with the "weather balloon" story adopted by
 >the Air Force.(...)"

 >Thus, by studying these negatives _myself_ I have proposed the
 >following, regarding the photo's _chronological order_:

 >1. Photo F is taken first, in Ramey's office, while Col. DuBose
 >was properly dressed, with his jacket, cap and tie. He's also
 >holding a piece of paper, looking similar to the "Ramey
 >message". This can imply that he got/brought the message to the
 >office, and maybe he read it first (or, maybe he wrote it, as a
 >some sort of "quick report", to Gen. Ramey? I.e, the last line
 >on the Ramey message (line 9) reads (hand written):
 >DuBose....?). (The pieces of debris may have been
 >located/arranged on the floor by Marcel, in advance.)

 >2. Photo E, the next photo; DuBose takes off his jacket, tie and
 >cap, and puts the tie on the radiator, and the cap on the first
 >chair. He then sits down on the third chair from left. Then he
 >leaves the paper to Ramey - who's properly dressed "for the
 >photographers" - and who sits down (before or after reading the
 >message). (He won't sit down on the first chair, because of
 >DuBose's cap...)

 >I also think that the "badge" on Ramey's upper arm should be
 >worth studying more closely - under high magnification and
 >enhancement. (Maybe some design similarity with the seal..?)

 >(But, why does DuBose undress _in Ramey's office_, removing tie,
 >cap and jacket...in front of the photographers? Has he become
 >'distressed and unbalanced' after the events, after
 >reading/writing the message....?)

 >3. Photo C or D are taken afterwards, as the two are getting
 >more "relaxed". Is Ramey having a smoke? Is he having a smoke to
 >relax/"calm down" after having read the message/report? (From
 >DuBose...?)

 >4. Photo A or B are taken then; DuBose's tie is still on the
 >radiator. Marcel is also not "properly dressed", though. (I have
 >assumed that the cap and the tie are DuBose's.) He may be
 >removing the debris for further examinations elsewhere; we can
 >see that the foil/material he's holding is lacking some sort of
 >a beam/stick, after (my suggestion) having been mounted in a
 >tent-like fashion on the floor - by himself.

 >5. Then, later on, photo G is taken, after some of the pieces of
 >debris have been removed by Marcel.

 >I have assumed/proposed here that DuBose brought the message to
 >Ramey, i.e., from Colonel to General, maybe as a report.

 >(Maybe JB Johnson can verify some of these
 >assumptions/speculations?)


Hello Asgeir,

Interesting attempt to make sense of the sequence of the
photographs! Just a little too much analysis here:

Fort Worth, Texas in the summer before air conditioning. Give me
a break, of course, coats and ties are a little much.

In this era people smoked everywhere and all the time. Let's not
get melodramatic here about Ramey trying to calm down.

It is not proper for military to wear covers indoors unless
under arms. The caps in the pictures are for effect. Wearing
cover indoors, in fact, is "improperly dressed." However, for
photographs that is another matter.

Since the pictures are of the Roswell debris, it is assumed that
the message in Ramey's hand is about Roswell. I am unconvinced
by what people are trying to read on the paper. It could be
anything, including after action comments about General Van's
visit to 8th AF area a few days before.

Of course, for the last 50 years everything breathe any Air
Force office takes involves UFOs, so all the other paperwork is
turned out by gnomes in the Pentagon to cover up what is really
going on.

Ramey like any general officer had 50 items on his calendar
everyday.


Jan Aldrich










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   Aug > Aug 20

                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 21:59:34 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:13:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Young


 >Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 17:47:39 +0100
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 23:32:38 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >>Well, if one was going to fake the AA film, and was interested
 >>enough in details to include something which looked like the
 >>long- published picture from Fort Worth, then maybe thay were
 >>careful enough to include details.

 >But just _who_ would this be and more to the point _when_?.

Who? Whomever faked the AA film.

When? Probably sometime between 1980 when the Roswell tale
resurfaced in published picture form and 1993, or whenever the
AA film surfaced.

<snip>

 >And the AA symbols I'm talking about _are_ _not_ the publicised
 >beam symbols that every one who has seen the AA are familiar
 >with.

 >The symbols that match those seen in the FW pictures sit
 >along a beam on one of the tables seen in the _background_ of
 >the "debris footage" and as far as I'm aware were totally
 >un-noticed until I hit on them by chance, late in 1999, no one
 >else has come forward to claim prior knowledge of these to date.

Now let me get it straight. The hoaxer would have had to
publicly announce the existance of the little details he or she
had noticed in the Fort Worth pictures and had decided to
duplicate to make the fake debris look better?

 >A similar point can be made for the FW pictures, has anyone
 >before the RPIT claimed to have found symbols lurking within
 >the debris on Ramey's floor potted them?, and at a date before
 >the AA film surfaced in 1993?.

The problem with your argument is that in order for it to be
true, there would have to be no one on this Earth who is either
as observant or as smart as you.

You obvously think that that is extremely unlikely.

This seems like it could be a fatal flaw in your hypothesis,
Neil.

 >>I wonder how Marcel got 777,500 square feet of anything in the
 >>trunk of his little old car?

 >Ah, but Cavitt had a "carry-all", see later.

See above..

<snip>

 >>What makes 10% coverage necessary to notice some shiny debris
 >>laying out on the desert? There is a mighty big assumption
 >>being made here.

 >>Did Brazel ever say that the area was covered to this density?

 >Nope, but if Tommy Tyree, the ranch hand who worked with Mack shortly
 >after the event is to be believed, the density was such as to
 >trouble Mack's sheep to the extent they wouldn't cross the debris
 >field, and he had to drive them around it.

You've interviewed the sheep, Neil, and they agree that it was
10% coverage?

 >Sorry Bob you've lost me here, the numbers used are _directly_
 >from witness testimony

1947 witness testimony?

 >and pictures?, am I to assume you are
 >referring to JBJ's FW pics (?so you agree the debris shown _is_
 >some of that from Roswell? or do you know of some others?)

Yes.

 >which according to Jesse Marcel only show a small portion of
 >what was transported to FWAAF aboard that B29's flight and
 >that debris flight only held what he and Cavitt had recovered
 >from the debris field. Most of the debris was still left behind
 >out there on the ranch.

What is the date and citation for this 1947 quotation, please.

<snip>

 >so how come they filled the carryall and Marcel's Buick yet
 >still left the larger part of the debris out there?.

Please provide a citation and date for the eyewitness testimony
that they filled the carryall and Buick with debris, yet still
left most behind?


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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               CCCRN News: 2000 Formation Report - Handsworth,

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 02:40:36 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:02:31 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: 2000 Formation Report - Handsworth,



CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

August 20, 2001

_____________________________


ANOTHER 2000 FORMATION REPORT - HANDSWORTH, SASKATCHEWAN


Preliminary Report - August 20, 2001

Handsworth, Saskatchewan October 1, 2000

Another late report, not received until August of 2001. Reported
by Robert Leslie. Single circle in wheat, about 60 feet
diameter, with clockwise lay. Found by farmer (name withheld for
time being) while swathing the field at the beginning of October
in 2000. The circle is still there as the field was swathed
around it at the time, and it was subsequently left untouched.
CCCRN will therefore still be able to do at least a basic ground
inspection of this formation for Crop Watch 2001 within the next
couple weeks. Handsworth is a short distance northeast of the
Midale / Estevan region, which has seen an abundance of circle
reports over the years, as well as the whole southern area of
Saskatchewan in general.

Another case illustrating the possibility that a significant
number of formations, in particular single or small groups of
circles, may go unreported at least initially, especially in
more remote locations, which some of these fields are in. We do
know now from experience that this is the case with at least a
small percentage of reports, and possibly more.

Ground report, images to follow.

This makes thirteen known reports for 2000.

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events. CCCRN
News is available free by subscription:

To subscribe to CCCRN News, send a blank e-mail to:
cccrnnews-subscribe@topica.com

To unsubscribe from CCCRN News, send a blank e-mail to:
cccrnnews-unsubscribe@topica.com

CCCRN News Archive:
http://www.topica.com/lists/cccrnnews/read


The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which investigates the crop circle
phenomenon and other possibly related phenomena in Canada,
creating a liason between researchers, farmers, the public, the
media and scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma

Main Office:
202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

Provincial Branches:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/contacts.html

Circle Phenomena in Canada 2001:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/circlescanada01.html

Fields of Dreams Webcast Radio Show:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/fieldsofdreams.html


� Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2001











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                 Cydonian Imperative: 08-19-01 - Evidence of

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 22:02:32 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:05:09 -0400
Subject: Cydonian Imperative: 08-19-01 - Evidence of


The Cydonian Imperative
8-20-01

Evidence of Martian "Explosion"
by Mac Tonnies

See:

http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html

Image sleuth Keith Laney has discovered interesting radial
"blast" markings on the Martian surface that look suspiciously
like something you might find on a driveway on July 4th. Are the
streaks caused by water, such as the seeps catalogued by Efrain
Palermo and Jill England (cited on The Enterprise Mission's new
"Tides of Mars" paper)? Palermo has volunteered that the
apparent "explosion" looks somewhat like the aftermath of the
1908 Tunguska explosion in Siberia, an airburst thought to have
been caused by a disintegrating comet fragment.

The markings in the Mars image look as though something
detonated, but it's unclear whether the detonation occured above
or below the ground. I don't see how this could have been the
work of a conventional meteorite, as there's no evidence of an
impact crater or ejecta. And the peculiar "scorch" marks, (if
that's what they are) are absent from known examples of impact
events.

end










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                      Re: Turkish Pilots & UFO - Konac

From: Hakan Konac <konac@ada.net.tr>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:12:13 GMT
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:13:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Turkish Pilots & UFO - Konac


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 18:00:38 EDT
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:37:29 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Turkish Pilots & UFO - Sparks


 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: Hakan Konac" <konac@ada.net.tr>
 >>Subject: Turkish Pilots & UFO
 >>Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 09:31:23 GMT

 >>Enjoy the below info.

 >>Hakan

 >>Name of Turkish Air Force Pilot: Second Lieutenant Ilker Dincer
 >>Name of Second Turkish Air Force Pilot: n.a.
 >>Type of the aircraft: T-37 Training Jet (122nd Squadron)
 >>Date: 6 August 2001
 >>Time: 12:30 hours Turkish time
 >>Place: Izmir, Candarli, Turkey
 >>Duration of Encounter: 30 minutes

 >>Dincer: "We are facing an unusual situation. We see an object
 >>        shaped like a cross between a cone and a disc, with
 >>        support legs, extremely luminous and high speed".

 >What "high speed"? Where was the T-37 headed? Where was it
 >located exactly? What altitude? Where was the UFO located in the
 >sky by angle? Altitude? Distance?

 >>Dincer reports the incident both to the Ground Control and to the
 >>Combat Operations Center (COC) and asks for radar confirmation.

 >>COC:  "Negative. We detect a high rate of maneuvering in your
 >>      aircraft but no detection of a second object around."

 >What was the speed of this supposed "high rate of maneuvering"?

 >>Dincer moves the T-37 closer towards the object and according to
 >>Dincer, the object also moves closer towards the T-37.

 >No details, no estimated distances, no directions/headings, no
 >times. Nothing.

 >>Dincer: "The object is now coming closer to my wings, now it's
 >>        behind us, I'll get it in front of myself, now it's in
 >>        front of us, hey this is certainly going for a dog fight
 >>        with us".

 >No estimated distances, no headings or directions, no locations,
 >no times, no details.

 >>The object gyrated around the T-37 for about a half hour. The
 >>object and the T-37 maneuvered around each other during the
 >>encounter until the object disappeared at an incredibly high
 >>speed.

 >No estimated distances, no haedings, no directions, no
 >locations, no altitudes, no deatils.

 >>The incident is under investigation by the Turkish Air Force and
 >>there is a great deal of concern and shock among the Air Force
 >>officials.

 >>The incident will be reported to the relevant international
 >>institutions, especially NASA.

 >It sounds very suspicious to me, the extreme lack of any detail
 >except what would sound exciting to a UFO nut.


Dear Brad and List members,

Here are some answers to possible questions:

Q: What "high speed"? Where was the T-37 headed? Where was it
located exactly? What altitude? Where was the UFO located in the
sky by angle? Altitude? Distance? What was the speed of this
supposed "high rate of maneuvering"? No details, no estimated
distances, no directions/headings, no times. Nothing. No
estimated distances, no haedings, no directions, no locations,
no altitudes, no deatils.

A: The statement came from only one source: Turkish press (that
includes newspapers, TV news, radio stations). According to the
press, however, the source is the Turkish Air Force (TUAF)
itself. Only the TUAF has the answers to the above questions,
but they simply don�t want to talk about it. The pilots are
probably under orders to keep their mouths shut.

On the other hand, Mr. Haktan Akdogan, Chairman of the Sirius
UFO and Space Sciences Research Center says he talked to some
folks at the Air Force Command and learned from them that the
incident was under serious investigation and that they might
have some radar output - something that is in contrast with the
earlier news which stated that there was no radar confirmation.
Of course, if this is an incorrect statement, Mr. Akdogan is the
one to put the blame on. He added that this incident was not the
only one faced by the Turkish Air Force (TUAF) Pilots.

Apparently, TUAF has several reports from the past but is not
disclosing any information on any alleged incidents. Governments
are governments everywhere. Too many questions and just a few
publicly known answers!

Q: One can ask the question why would the Turkish Air Force
contact NASA since NASA has publicly disavowed any knowledge or
interest in UFOs?

A: Well, I can think of two answers:

1. TUAF is not aware of NASA's statement disavowing any interest
    in UFOs.

2. If TUAF really has an unusual radar output and does not have
    sufficient means to thoroughly analyse it, they might want to
    send the radar output to NASA and request info on it,
    notwithstanding that the incident is a UFO-related one.
    Perhaps, they will not even tell NASA about the UFO side of
    the story, but only ask them what they can make of the radar
    output. A simple request that can be addressed to an ally
    institution, right?

If I hear more on this, I'll let you know.


Regards,

E. Hakan Konac









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                 Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Roberts

From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:34:42 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:17:17 -0400
Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Roberts


 >From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released
 >Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 23:28:15 +0100

Pilgrims,

Georgina's post, reeking of sour grapes as it does, is highly
amusing.

Unfortunately we're too busy with proper UFO research to discuss
phone calls which may or may not have happened, single radar
operator 'sightings' which occupy one paragraph of her book, and
other irrelevancies. But, it's a lovely sunny afternoon in the
South Pennines, we've just been for a jolly walk and are
prepared to have a little fun with Georgina.....

Georgina wrote:

 >I was interested to see the post from Dave Clarke. This of
 >course was in response to my earlier post, and from the rather
 >sarcastic comments, I suspect I've upset him by breaking the
 >story first.

Ho, and indeed ho. We have had the Rendlesham file since May
2001. Our website was primed and ready to go, waiting to see how
Georgina (who only received the files recently) chose to present
the material.

We weren't disappointed.

Instead of choosing to 'tell the people', it's more a case of
telling the people to 'buy the magazine'. Georgina's
announcement has more to do with puffing up magazine sales than
any real desire for you, the ufological public, to read the
facts. Mrs Thatcher would be proud of her entrepreneurial
acumen!

Whereas Dave Clarke has chosen to contextualise and analyse the
documents Georgina has chosen merely to advertise them.

Georgina's nonsense about us 'distorting' the case can be shown
for the tripe it is if you look at flyingsaucery.com. Decide for
yourself just how much is 'comment' and how much is presentation
of the file itself. The 'comments' by James Easton and Jenny
Randles are totally distinct from the Rendlesham File and Dave's
commentary. Their views are not necessarily shared by either
Dave or myself but both have been major players in the
Rendlesham investigation and should be carefully listened to.

So, visit flyingsaucery.com where you can read selected
documents (for free!), the accompanying comment and analysis
(for free) and make your own minds up.

Despite Georgina's witterings, we have offered her the space to
put her side of the story on our site and she has accepted.
Once, of course it's been sold to you, along with the tea towel,
personalised handbag, and video, via UFO Magazine!

Buy now whilst belief lasts!

The 7000 people plus who've hit the site in the last 48 hours
haven't had to spend any money to see these vital documents. Nor
do they have to wade through a lot of hot air and nonsense. The
facts are there for all to see.

Naturally we are previewing our book on the site. But before it
comes out next May we will be freely releasing some absolutely
amazing UK ufological material to 'the people'.

We rest our valise!


Happy Trails

Dave and Andy










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             Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:55:08 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:20:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Velez


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 14:19:36 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: 19 Aug 2001 10:19:23 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure
 >>>Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 18:12:57 -0700

 >>>>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>>>Date: 15 Aug 2001 12:26:59 -0700
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>><snip>

 >>>>Some indirect contact has taken place with people who have been
 >>>>associated with the Disclosure Project. Whether this has Dr.
 >>>>Greer's direction I do not know.

 >>>Ok, fine, but why isn't Dr. Greer fully capable of taking the
 >>>disclosure issue on himself without the need of useless, futile,
 >>>acts of self-injury to prove what?

 >>Why do you assume Greer is not capable of taking on disclosure
 >>without Lara?

 >>>I agree with John and Kelly on this one (re; their previous
 >>>posts to Lara.)

 >>>Years ago, I knew of a woman who went on a hunger strike to get
 >>>James Watt out as Secretary of the Interior. She didn't know she
 >>>was pregnant. She miscarried, and nearly died anyway. Ol'
 >>>Clearcut didn't know or cared.

 >>>Point: No politician cares, not about something as immaterial to
 >>>voting as the 'UFO Bloc' (more like soft sponge than Bloc I
 >>>might add).

 >>100 years ago no politician cared about the female vote, or the
 >>black vote. 25 years ago no politician cared about the gay vote.
 >>So what is the point you are struggling to make?

 >>>>There has been no direct contact between the two, and according
 >>>>to Lara it may be better if there isn't. Her concern is the
 >>>>honesty of George Bush. UFOs is only a small part of the overall
 >>>>secrecy she objects to.

 >>>>Hope this helps,

 >>>Yes, it does, but if there isn't direct contact, how is the good
 >>>Doctor indirectly aware that the lines of communication are open
 >>>through his people that he is in indirect communication with and
 >>>with his indirect direction?

 >>What do you propose Dr. Greer do? 1) break into her house in the
 >>middle of her night and force feed her? 2) lock her in her room
 >>till she eats? 3) Have her arrested? 4) Have her killed? 5)
 >>Phone her and order her to stop immediately?

 >>Last time I checked the United States was still a free country
 >>where people can do as they please.

 >>Lara does not have to feel the scolding of Greer to stop. She
 >>gets enough of it from the UFO community. Despite my warning
 >>about this when she started she expressed on a radio show last
 >>night, shock at how people are treated in this community.

 >>Some people associated with the Disclosure Project have
 >>approached Lara with offers to help. As far as I know no one in
 >>the Disclosure Project has attacked her for her actions.

 >>Grant

 >>"Are you ready for the revolution?"


 >Dear Grant, List, Errol;

 >Excellent post and even more excellent logic, Grant.

 >This is a very opinionated place to live. No, not UpDates, but
 >the UFO community. Those who are most vocal other than me, tend
 >to set themselvesup as spokesmen and spokeswomen for everyone.
 >Sometimes we are treated like children... "Now, now... mustn't
 >do that. Might ruin your health!" in one breath. In the other,
 >"Go ahead, make a damned fool of yourself."

 >Depends more on how long you've been hanging around than on what
 >the issue is. Benn around a long time? You are anathema when you
 >do something counter to opinion. When you've been around a short
 >time, you are gently chided. But the chiding sets up who you are
 >supposd to be and who the chiders are supposed to be. Kings and
 >queens of the hill.

 >I mean it's not like you just doused yourself with gasoline and
 >are attempting to light a match or anything. But common sense
 >appears to elude us sometimes. So, in defense of Lara's common
 >sense and decent sensibility, I applaud you efforts to make a
 >statement that no one here would likely make. Put your entire
 >self on the line.

 >Good show, lady. However these words need not be said for you,
 >Lara. They need to be said for those who would do to you, what
 >they do best in general. Control.

 >I wish you health and love. It's just that here, you will
 >probably die ten thousand deaths on line before you croak of old
 >age in about fifty years.

 >Rest in Pieces. I mean that. When it's all over, rest in Reese's
 >Pieces. "And when it's all over, I'd just as soon be on my way,
 >up to some paradise, where the trout streams flow and the air is
 >nice. And ride a horse along the trail. But then they put him in
 >a jail house. And tried to turn a man into a mouse."

 >Lady Hurricaine lover,

 >Jim Mortellaro

Hello All,

Wow!

It simply amazes me how; what was originally a simple expression
of concern for the well being of a fellow human being, has been
twisted into this maelstrom of contentious debate. How my
expression of genuine concern for Lara has been tortuously
interpreted as an attempt to "control" I'll never know. My mind
just isn't that convoluted so I can't even follow the thought
processes involved that would permit anyone to derive such a
sick meaning from my posts to Lara. Must be 'somebody'
interpreting things the way they want to interpret them regardless
of actual content or intent. A form of "prejudice" if you will.

Just to clarify this for anyone who may be laboring under delusions
or misinterpretations; my legitimate concerns for Lara stem
from the following:

1. Lara is engaged in a long term fast with no set terminus. (She
plans to fast until George Bush caves and responds to her ultimatum.)

2. Fasts which extend beyond thirty days _are_physically_harmful_
to the individual that is fasting.

3. Her fast is being supervised by an 'herbologist' not a physician.
(A physician can monitor her blood chemistry and provide her with
sound medical advice should any changes that are hazardous to her
health transpire. She can then adjust her nutrient intake accordingly
in order to protect her health.)

4. Lara, for all her admirable character attributes is just a human
being with all the limitations and physical shortcomings that we
are all prone to.

Those of you who find it 'easy' to egg her on and encourage her
without ever _once_ mentioning the potential hazard to her well
being are doing her a tremendous disservice. Honestly, I get
tired of 'windbags' that have nothing better to do than to hop
onto every bandwagon that rolls into town without once taking
the time to think it through or to conduct a critical evaluation
as to its value.

Worse yet, some will take the good intentions of others and twist
and cajole it into their own very sick and twisted interpretations.
I trust that the more intelligent among the assembled are able to
see the (self serving) interpretations of these individuals for what
it is. Empty lip-service. (Talking just to hear the lilting sound of
ones own voice.)

I'd have a lot more respect for some of her supporters if they
had the cojones to join her in her fast rather than taking the
easy (and cowardly) route of twisting the meaning of, and verbally
castigating and criticizing others who are expressing _genuine_
concern for Lara's well being.

All I have done is express my concern for Lara. It is 'others'
who are (once again) trying hard to turn it all into an adversarial
(we/they) situation. The finger pointer's are the ones who
continually expend energy to keep the UFO community divided.
They are not only the instigators and culprits of it, they are
the ones who are guilty of the divisiveness  they so easily and
thoughtlessly 'blame' on others.

For them I will paraphrase the words of a Great teacher:

"Remove the _log_ from thine own eye before pointing out the
splinter in the eye of another!"


John Velez








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Aug > Aug 21

                 Foot & Mouth Reduced Crop Circle Sightings

From: Adam Lowe <nicap@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:47:03 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 02:22:26 -0400
Subject: Foot & Mouth Reduced Crop Circle Sightings


Hi Everyone,

If I remember correctly someone earlier this year asked if the
foot and mouth disease would affect the amount crop circles. I
spotted this earlier so I thought I'd pass it on.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1496000/1496296.stm

Foot and mouth disease reduced crop circle sightings.

Foot-and-mouth disease seems to have affected the number of
mysterious crop circles appearing through the summer, according
to a Wiltshire farmer.

Tim Carson had only one new circle appear on his land this year
- until rural access restrictions were lifted a month ago.

He said: "I had a phone call to ask if the footpaths were open
round our way.

"I said 'Yes', and that night a crop circle appeared. Read into
that what you will."

Researchers trying to explain the phenomenon say it may be
caused by the Earth's magnetic field - but they admit many
circles are hoaxes.

Elaborate patterns are man-made, say experts.

The high number appearing in Wiltshire has been linked with the
presence of ancient remains such as Stonehenge, Avebury and
Silbury Hill.

The circles are a familiar sight on Mr Carson's land at Manor
Farm in Alton Barnes, near Marlborough.

He knows that at least two of this year's circles were not
created by alien beings.

He said: "We had one circle during the restrictions and then the
footpaths were reopened and we have had six since then.

Disney film.

"Two of them I know about because someone was making a film, and
he asked me if he could make them.

"It's a love story and it's got crop circles in it."

Simple circles may not be fakes, say experts

Mr Carson could give no details, but said the director hoped to
release it after another movie hits the big screen, probably
next year.

The Disney film, Signs, is about circles appearing on a family
farm in Philadelphia.

Scientist Colin Andrews, who has spent 18 years researching the
strange manifestations, says about 80% are man-made.

Mr Carson is not amused by the fakes. "It's a waste of crops,
trespass and criminal damage," he said.

Massive circle.

But he admitted to being intrigued.

He said: "My neighbour's just had one that's absolutely massive.

Circles are common in Wiltshire

"If you work it out, it's not dark for that many hours in
summer, and this consists of about 300 separate circles.

"There must have been a circle made every 30 seconds.

"It would have taken an army to do that, and there's no way an
army could have gone undetected.

"It's something that defies belief."

There is no mystery about what makes the circles disappear - the
annual harvest.

"We've removed two already and the other five won't stay much
longer," said Mr Carson.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Aug > Aug 21

                       National UFO Conference Update

From: SMiles Lewis <smiles@elfis.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:54:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 02:27:45 -0400
Subject: National UFO Conference Update


The 38th Annual
NATIONAL UFO CONFERENCE
September 14-15-16
Austin, Texas
www.nufoc.net
www.drafthouse.com/downtown.html

     SPONSORED BY
The Elfis Network, theUFOstore.com, Gomi-"The Cure for Mundane
Living", Vulcan Video, Creatures, Waterloo Records & Video,
Quanset Hut, Insty Prints

UpDate Contents:

-Speaker Focus
-Event Themes Each Day
-Live Music Each Night
-Advance Ticket Discount

-=-=-

NUFOC 38 SPEAKERS

Robert Anton Wilson, Jenny Randles, Constance Clear, Patrick
Huyghe, Karl Pflock, Kenn Thomas, Greg Bishop, Eugenia Macer-
Story, James Arthur, David Perkins, James Moseley, Mack White,
Russ Dowden, Tom Deuley, Loren Coleman, Diana Hoyt, Pamela
Stonebrooke, Bruce Wright, Ed Conroy, Erik Stearns, Dennis Stacy,
Don Webb, Miles Lewis, Tim Brigham, Steve Mizrach, Jim Beal.

     -Kenn Thomas-
Kenn Thomas is founder, publisher and editor of Steamshovel
Press, one of the world's most respected alternative media
publications. He is also one of America's best known conspiracy
writers and the author of seven published books on a variety of
topics.

Thomas lectures widely and appears regularly on television and
radio programs, including Fox News Full Nelson, Rob McConnell's
X-Zone, Sightings on the Radio, Strange Daze and Coast To Coast
AM with Art Bell.

Books By Kenn Thomas include: Maury Island UFO, Inside the
Gemstone File, Flying Saucers over Los Angeles, Mind Control,
Oswald and JFK, NASA, Nazis and JFK, The Octopus, Popular
Alienation.

Kenn is presenting "The ParaPolitics of UFOs/Maury Island & the
Crisman Conspiracy" Sunday afternoon. He will also be
participating
in several panel discussions.

For more information about Kenn Thomas...
http://www.nufoc.net/thomas.htm
http://www.steamshovelpress.com

Check out pages from the Maury Island comic book...
http://www.seattleartbellchatclub.com/Maury.html


     -Constance Clear-
Abduction therapist & author of Reaching for Reality. Constance
hosts the nightly radio show/webcast Clear Talk. Lecturer and
psychotherapist Clear has a Master of Arts degree in psychology
from Trinity University and a Master of Social Work degree from
Our Lady of the Lake University. She has been in private
practice since 1976, working with individuals, couples, and
families. After fifteen years of facilitating a support group
for bereaved parents, Constance began to study the UFO
phenomena, which led to her working with abductees and
culminated in the creation of this book. Her credentials
include: L.M.S.W.-A.C.P., L.M.F.T., A.C.S.W., and B.C.D.

For more information about Constance Clear...
http://www.nufoc.net/clear.htm
http://www.reachingforreality.com


     -Patrick Huyghe-
Patrick Huyghe is presently the editor-in-chief of Paraview
Press in New York, and the editor of a twice-yearly journal on
the mysteries of science,  history, and nature called The
Anomalist. Under the company name JustDuckie, he also maintains
several web sites, which he created, including the online
version of The Anomalist and Small Comets, the news site for
information on the discovery of small comets.

Huyghe holds a BA in social psychology from the University of
Virginia and an MS in journalism from Syracuse University. After
two years of editing and writing on the staffs of Us and
Newsweek magazines, he turned freelance in 1980. Since then he
has written for dozens of magazines, from The New York Times
Magazine and Discover, to Psychology Today and Reader's Digest,
Health and Omni, Audubon and The Sciences, and many others.
During his two decades as a science writer he also served stints
as contributing editor to both Science Digest and Omni.

Huyghe has also contributed to Time-Life, Reader's Digest, and
Scribner's book series, taught science writing at the college
level, produced public TV documentaries for WGBH-Boston and
WNET- New York, and written exhibit text and interactive scripts
for the Liberty Science Center in New Jersey, the Petrosains
Discovery Center in Malaysia, and Monsanto's "Beautiful Science"
exhibit at EPCOT.

Huyghe has authored three books. His latest is titled, Swamp Gas
Times: My Two Decades on the UFO Beat.

For more information about Patrick Huyghe...
http://www.nufoc.net/huyghe.htm
http://www.PatrickHuyghe.com
http://www.Anomalist.com
http://www.ParaView.com


     -Diana Palmer Hoyt-
Diana has writtern her masters thesis on the academic ridicule
of the UFO subject: UFOs, Social Intelligence and the Condon
Committee. Diana is currently employed by NASA.

Diana is presenting Friday afternoon on "UFOs as Forbidden
Science". She will also be participating in the Friday afternoon
panel discussion "Best Future Research/Gaining Legitimacy".

For more information about Diana Hoyt...
http://www.nufoc.net/hoyt.htm
http://www.policy.nasa.gov/hoyt.html


     -Ed Conroy-
Author of Report on Communion: An Independent Investigation of
and Commentary on Whitley Strieber�s Communion. Ed Conroy was a
free-lance writer for the San Antonio (TX) Express-News and
other publications, specializing in arts and entertainment. He
is a graduate of the California Institute of the Arts� School of
Critical Studies, and lives in San Antonio.

His independent investigation of Whitley Strieber�s nonfiction
book Communion is every bit as eye-opening as Communion itself.
As the first in-depth report that attempts to verify experiences
related by Strieber in that work, Report on Communion studies
the �visitor� and UFO �abduction� phenomena. Ed Conroy presents
the story behind the book and the media uproar it created in
order to allow the reader to make up his or her own mind about
the most compelling and widely read account of an apparent UFO
"abduction.�

With Strieber�s full cooperation, Conroy has interviewed figures
important to Strieber�s childhood, the writing of Communion and
Transformation, his writing career in general, and the making of
the film of the book. Conroy has conducted original research on
similar �visitor� experiences in the vicinity of Strieber�s
boyhood home in San Antonio, Texas, cross-verified facts
presented in order to approach rationally the UFO phenomenon;
and records his own experiences for the reader to interpret.

Conroy also discusses Communion within the larger context of the
myths, folklore, and reality of our world, including the
possible relationship between the �visitors� and the fairies and
leprechauns of legend. He explores Communion�s place in the
American UFO community and includes an exclusive interview that
gives Strieber�s own thoughts on the identity of the �visitors.�
But perhaps the most important question addressed in Report on
Communion is �If Strieber is telling the truth, and humanity is
actually entering into a new relationship with entities who are
intervening dramatically in our most personal affairs, then what
kind of relationship are we to establish with them?�

Ed Conroy will be presenting Sunday afternoon. His talk is
titled "From UFO Researcher to Cabalist: Conroy's Transformation
After His Journey Through Communion". He will also be
participating in the Sunday afternoon panel discussion
"Balancing Experiencer Therapy & Event Investigations".

For more information about Ed Conroy...
http://www.nufoc.net/conroy.htm



     -Greg Bishop-
Editor of The Excluded Middle magazine and researcher into UFOs
and Alien Writing and their interconnections with altered states
of consciousness and shamanism. His articles have graced the
pages of Fortean Times, Magickal Blend and others.

In his article "ET Play Ball," written for The Konformist, Greg
looks at connections between the infamous Roswell incident and
inter- racial developments in sport.
http://www.konformist.com/1999/etplayball.htm

"The Great Rock Convention," co-written with conspiriologist
Kenn Thomas for Fortean Times magazine, is an outstanding
article on one of Greg's favorite subjects; early UFO contactees
and the Giant Rock gatherings. Gain some insight into the
beginnings of a contemporary New Religious Movement.
http://www.forteantimes.com/artic/118/rock.html

Greg will be presenting Saturday afternoon on "Psychedelics,
Alien Abductions, Shamanism and Alien Writing". He will also be
participating in several panel discussions.

For more information about Greg Bishop...
http://www.nufoc.net/bishop.htm

Check out the official web site for The Excluded Middle, one of
the most interesting conspiriology and weird culture zines,
founded in 1993. The archived articles are a stimulating read,
ranging from familiar topics such as UFOlogy and Nikola Tesla to
Cabbalistic interpreteations of Dr. Seuss tales. A must-read
site! http://www.excludedmiddle.com


There you can read famous interviews by Greg Bishop of...
William "Bill" Moore, Karla Turner, Keith Thompson, Richard
Boylan, James Moseley, Dean Radin, Ira Einhorn

-=-=-

Each full day of this year's National UFO Conference has a
theme. There are many important facets to unraveling the ufo
mystery so we've chosen to focus each days presentations towards
certain key componants of the phenomenon.


     Friday's focus: "The Future of UFOlogy"

What does the future hold for the scientific investigation of
the UFO phenomenon? Despite all the ridicule and lack of
official scientific inquiry, many dedicated researchers have led
the way investigating everything from UFO landing traces to the
stories of contact described by the witnesses themselves. Much
has been accomplished over the years and there is still much
work to do.

Hard at work behind the scenes, this day's lineup of presenters
will educate you about where we have been and where we are going
in the scientific quest for understanding of Earth's greatest
mysteries.

Is there any evidence for the claims of Goverment suppresed
crashed saucer retrievals such as the El Indio and, more famous,
Roswell New Mexico crash of 1947? How might we use the latest
technologies to aid us in our search for answers to the ufo
enigma? What can we learn from Academia's ridicule of the ufo
subject? How can we use that knowledge to turn the tide of
derision and begin anew to ask the right questions?


     Saturday's focus: "Alternate Paradigms for the UFO
     Phenomenon"

There has always been a tendacy to "escalate hypotheses" while
grappling with the "ufo problem." When the modern era of flying
saucers began it was easy to speculate about their possible
origins; advanced aircraft of an enemy nation was usually the
first idea put forth. Misperceived natural phenomena was another
popular explaination which still seems valid for weeding out the
80-95% "haystack" of IFOs (Identified Flying Objects) that
dilute the true UFO reports. But it was the ExtraTerrestrial
Hypothesis that quickly emerged as the main contender for the
modern public's ideas about the origins of UFOs.

Despite the extraterrestrial hypothesis' popularity and surface
level viability as the best explanation for UFO sightings and
close encounters, many researchers began looking elsewhere for
new hypotheses to better account for all the ufo data. In the
1970s a number of new theories emerged to explain ufos and
related phenomena. The Paranormal Hypothesis became popular
among those fluent in parapsychological research as well as
those identifying their interests in the strange with the
monikers of Forteana, Parapsychology and Anomalistics.

With subjects as diverse as consciousness and dream research,
apparition reports and ghost stories, cattle mutilations and
crop circles, psychedelics and perception, unknown animals and
paranormal beings, astral travel and out of body experiences,
shamanism and spiritual transformation... Saturday's speakers
will shatter your preconceptions about the Paradigms you believe
in and live by.


     Sunday's focus: "Integrating the Anomalous"

The focus of the final conference day is the "bottom line" of
these strange phenomena; how do we integrate the anomalous into
our lives? Sunday's speakers are well equipped to help us
individually and as a society to navigate the ambiguous multiple
paradigms inherant in UFO related phenomena..

While science has tried to quantify the UFO phenomena through
its various instruments of investigation such as radar,
magnetometers, chemical analyzers, photographic devices etc.,
the most important aspect of the strange events and encounters
is the person who witnesses and experiences these Unassimilated
Fantastic Observations. Some people have a religious response
(the Contactees old and new), others are incenced by the
violating aspects of there encounters. For some the encounters
are liberating transcendant spiritual experiences while others
are beset by a variety of debilitating problems ranging from
sleep disturbances, radiation sickness or even PTSD (Post
Traumatic Stress Disorder). "Something" is experienced by these
people and it can have life changing effects upon them.

What do we know about the people who witness these phenomena?
How can we balance our investigations into these events while
protecting the rights and well-being of the experiencers of such
bizarre phenomena?

How have the various researchers and experiencers grappled with
these phenomena over the years? What drives those who've not had
the experience to often voraciously pursue the answers to the
riddles posed by the phenomena? Why do others react with
ridicule and fear? These questions and much more will be
explored during both the Sunday Day Session and the Sunday Night
Session.

-=-=-

LIVE MUSIC

This year's conference will be unlike any other UFO event. Each
night there will be UFO researchers and a panel discussion just
like during the day but after dark there will be live ParaUFO
music, Flying Saucer Film Festival and Psychotronic
Entertainment.

Music is an amazingly mind altering technology. With simple
beats and rhythms a person's heart rate and brainwave activity
can be 'entrained' to a specific frequency. Music can change
your mood. It can put you on the edge of your seat in
suspenseful anticipation and it can exalt the very fabric of
your soul.

Some people have suggested that the creative artistic types
often seem to be experiencers of paranormal and contact
phenomena. Many  a musician has wrestled with the various issues
associated with UFOs, aliens and the paranormal. Austin has
played host to a number of such artists like Roky Erickson of
the 13th Floor Elevators and Jon Sanchez of the Flying Saucers.
There are tons of UFO songs out there in the ether.

Good examples of intuitive psychics and/or experiencers are
scheduled presenters Eugenia Macer-Story and Pamela Stonebrooke.
Besides giving their ufo lectures both Eugenia and Pamela will
be gracing us with their own musical stylings. Eugenia plays
guitar and rights songs for the numerous plays she has written.
She will be performing her own style of "Interdimensional Music"
Friday evening before that nights film festival. Then on Sunday
night Pamela Stonebrooke, an accomplished jazz singer, will belt
out several of her own tunes. (Keep an eye out for the next
Conference UpDate that will feature more information on both of
these multi-talented presenters.)

At the end of each night we will be featuring a taste of
Austin's own anomalous music community; first on Friday night
with veteran Austin rockers PONG then Saturday night with
ethereal feedback artists Experimental Aircraft and finally
Sunday night with garageband rockers SciBorg Sam & the
Automatons.

See what others are saying about these awesome Austin musicians:

      PONG!

"The name fits the retro-futuristic kind of mood we're in,"
explains guitarist and vocalist Gary Chester.

Joining Chester are Jason Craig (guitar, vocals), Lyman Hardy
(drums), Shane Shelton (keyboards, vocals), and Larry Strub
(bass, vocals). Craig and Shelton have spent time in local punk
rock bands Pocket FishRmen and Moist Fist, respectively. The
remaining three created one of Austin's most important post-punk
bands, the mighty modernist rock trio Ed Hall.

After releasing a handful of albums and touring the U.S. and
Europe, Ed Hall -- like their last label, Trance Syndicate --
called it quits in 1996. Personality clashes didn't break up the
band, but rather the familiar story of years of hard work with
less-than- desired rewards. Bassist Strub moved to Thailand for
a few years and taught English. Chester stayed in town, playing
with Moist Fist and fashioning Gold, the band that became Pong.

Checking out the band's rough mixes prove the point.
"Incapacitated" is a toe-tapping disco-rock jam that announces
"aliens have landed at the White House, California has fallen
into the ocean," that last word delivered in a fatalistic
falsetto drop. "Foot Foot" begins with Stonesy "whooo-hooo"
harmonies mixed with Warm Jets-era Eno vocals and an upbeat
rhythm. The flowing, flowering intro of "Bubble Jungle" morphs
into a cavernous shuffle groove, full of melodic stalactites and
weird vocal stalagmites. Pong songs are often like Dali
paintings, at once organized, inviting, and scary."

http://www.auschron.com/issues/dispatch/2000-03-03/music_feature3.html


"Dramatically switching gears, Austin's Pong sludges up on
stage. For those of you who were fans of Ed Hall, Pong is all
three members of this former seminal Austin band, along with two
other chaps adding keyboards and another guitar into the mix.
These veterans not only put on a stellar show, but have some
great material to go along with their antics."

http://www.splendidezine.com/features/sxsw2k/wednesday.html


     EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT
     http://www.experimentalaircraft.com/

"Another chance to lay back and drift easy as Austin, Texas'
EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT put the shimmer on and start glistening.
Ten tracks of blissy and sonic pop and rock combinations driven
by fuzzed guitars, lush female vocals, and an occasional
Moog/synth sound. Dynamic, jam-ready, and spaced." -Unknown

"Dreamy, narcotic, trance-inducing, space landscape of sound.
T.J. O'Leary, guitar and vocals; Rachel Staggs, guitar and
vocals; Mark Smith, bass; and Jason Ferguson, drums." -Unknown

"These Austin-nauts drift through the ether with beautifully
fuzzy guitars and lush girl vocals. The odd Moog and organ
slinks through as spaced-out hooks expand into Sonic Youth-style
jams. Shimmering moments of quiet provide valleys to match the
band's loudest peaks." -Williamette Week

"With neutron stars in their eyes and a new self-titled EP in
hand, Experimental Aircraft phases their brand of ballsy
bliss-rock into an Austin landscape woefully short on
shoegazerdom. References to drone masters Bailter Space might be
more apt, but when the band hits its stride, they're evocative
of the seemingly Precambrian days when My Bloody Valentine
walked the earth." - Michael Chamy, The Austin Chronicle

http://www.auschron.com/issues/dispatch/2000-11-24/music_recviews17.html


�Shoegazers and noise enthusiasts Experimental Aircraft weave
through Indie Rock signatures with alarming dexterity. From
Their Sonic Youth-inspired string noise and two-note dissonance
to Swervedriver�s hollow, NASA-approved screech (�Sci-Flyer�,
�Son of Mustang Ford�), and finally Lush/MBV, Doppler-effected
grooves, it�s obvious they�ve done their homework. While an
ability to mirror and medley some of �90s Alt-Rock�s greatest
moments deserves some respect, it�s Experimental Aircraft�s own
style and kinetic flair that remains most impressive.�
-Listen.com

"And lo, a great deal of drinking then took place at Opal's. A
whole lot. There were discussions of camping and Mississippi and
the feared "Zachsquatch". And over all of this debauchery spun
the gorgeous music of Experimental Aircraft, another Devil in
the Woods band. Their self-titled album is simultaneously a
tribute to the our shoegazing past and a hint at some sort of
blissed-out sonic future. Sure, there are traces of My Bloody
Valentine and Slowdive and Chapterhouse, (how couldn't there
be?), but Ex-Air have moved past the early 90's hip-hopped
percussion and focused more exclusively on guitars and what
distortion does to them. Lead singer Rachel's dreamy vocals and
lyrics remind you that music is safe when the world isn't.
Theirs is beautifully controlled noise that can pretty much
insulate you from whatever attacks. It hasn't left Squid's
discman since she left Austin. There's really never been a more
perfect end to an evening."

http://www.playinginfog.com/reviews/sxswmix.html

An Interview with Experimental Aircraft at AustinLive.Com
     http://www.austinlive.com/sxsw2000/interviews/experimentalaircraft.htm


     SCIBORG SAM & THE AUTOMATONS
     http://www.SciBorg-Gear.com/

"Alexander Uriostegui, the leader of SciBorg Sam & The
Automatons, is both musician and author. His book SciBorg Sam &
The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence is 'a journey of
nonstop action, adventure, mystery, chaos, corruption,
gratuitous violence, controversial issues, eroticism, and sick
humor.'

SciBorg Sam designs cyborg outfits for his band and is totally
into UFOs and Extraterrestrial Intelligences."

     Read an excerpt from the book:
http://www.sciborg-gear.com/journ.htm

-=-=-

ADVANCE REGISTRATION DISCOUNTS

     Advance Registration Before September 9th
$30 Individual Day Session Pass
     (MUST SPECIFY WHICH SESSION 1 / 3 / 5 )
$20 Individual Night Session Pass
     (MUST SPECIFY WHICH SESSION 2 / 4 / 6 )
$45 Day/Night Combo Pass (2 same day sessions)
     (MUST SPECIFY WHICH DAY Fri/Sat/Sun )
$120 All Sessions Pass (all 6 sessions)

SEND CHECKS OR MONEY ORDERS TO:

National UFO Conference
PO Box 33509
Austin, TX 78764
Make checks payable to: National UFO Conference

OR PURCHASE ONLINE

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                          Review: Faster Than Light

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 18:34:46 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 02:31:07 -0400
Subject: Review: Faster Than Light


The following is a review of "Faster than Light" magazine,
reviewed by Paul Hunter, official reviewer for ufologyinuk. If
anyone produces a publication which they would like to be
reviewed by Paul, please get in touch with me.

Joe McGonagle
Administrator, ufologyinuk



Title: Faster Than Light
Author: Christopher Evers
Date of Review: 19th August 2001
Reviewer: Paul Hunter

I received two copies of the A5 sized FTL edited by Chris Evers
of Hull. Unfortunately I can't say precisely which editions they
are because this information does not seem to be included
anywhere in either copy. Judging by the content I'd say that
they are late 2000 and early 2001. One edition was clearly
written in late 2000, which it says is FTL's fourth anniversary
but somewhat confusingly this clashes with the statement on the
other issue that the "...bi-monthly [six copies per year)
publication was founded in 1994...".

Faster Than Light is essentially a generous round up of UFO
related items found on the internet, (it also includes other
things such as ghosts and the paranormal); this interspersed
with Chris Evers own UFO investigations. If the first part of
this equation sounds easy, I can assure you it isn't. Anyone who
has for any reason (e,g.,. webmaster) tried to keep up with the
copious amount of UFO related information on the internet,
especially after the 1995 explosion, has a hard job indeed.
Considerable publishing work (and sheer selectivity) goes into
each FTL, so if you are not on the internet, or are but can't
keep up with all the news, or would simply prefer hard-copy
printout with colour pictures, this is a good buy indeed.
Significant UFO related events of all kinds are featured:

* Moon anomalies;

* UFOs and volcano's (ref: a name that English news-readers
dislike:- Popacatepetl), including colour photos;

* UFOs and 'black programmes' (here Chris evidently takes a
personal interest with a special essay or synopsis authored by
him);

* The Malmstrom 'UFOs and Minutemen' incident. (A report by
Robert Salas - one of the May 9th CSETI 'UFO Disclosure'
witnesses);

* Roswell updates;

* New York Flying Triangle sightings;

* 'Nazi UFOs'. There's no author or URL reference on this one,
but it relates to the Horton designed planes which any student
of this UFO sub topic will be familiar with;

* The 'COMETA' or 'IHEDN' report by Gildas Bourdais;

* The Derbyshire UFO flap (sourced from the 'Farshores' website,
which in turn gleans much of the info from the Matlock Mercury);

* 'Angels or Aliens?' by Scott Corrales.

You should be able to tell from the above list, that Chris tends
to source from somewhat 'pro ETH' leanings (Corrales, Salas). I
could go on, (this isn't even the contents of one issue of a 40
page FTL) but I think you can see there is a wide selection
here. One small improvement

- in view of the copious content - would be an index page Chris!
I was fascinated to read of an investigation by Chris Evers and
Gary Anthony of a local (to me) Grimsby UFO flap. Here, Chris
and Gary deserve recognition for essentially proving what a
slack initial job the local Grimsby Evening Telegraph did in
'investigating' the flap. What a thankless task it must be to go
round unpicking the true reporting from the journalistic
invention - and all on no pay! For completely non-ufological
reasons (to do with politics actually) I reached exactly the
same conclusions regarding the Grimsby Evening Telegraph in
1997: essentially, I believe they cannot take anything important
seriously. Gary and Chris rightly chastise the 'GET' for a lack
of integrity - one reporter even claimed ('bragged'?) that he
invented a UFO sighting and actually received reports of the
same from the general public! However, can we really believe a
liar? As well as this, the 'GET' editor supposedly ordered a
clampdown on the issue. From the FTL interviews with witnesses
and one alleged abductee, I gained an overwhelming impression of
witness sincerity, as well as justifiably cynical attitudes
regarding the Grimsby Evening Telegraph ability to report things
accurately.

It is a great shame that Grimsbarians are so ill-served by their
local paper (Pat Otter must have left?), and what a contrast
with the Matlock Mercury, whose editor seems a moral man, and
whose investigating zeal encompasses both the political and for
want of a better word, the 'paranormal'. Together with original
colour photos of the witnesses, this piece would not be out of
place in any UFO based magazine or book. Although I was familiar
with all the internet sourced news items, this article made the
entire issue invaluable to me. One hopes that Chris can find the
time to expand on 'original content' like this! This article
also shows an attitude of discernment and detachment which I
think probably informs the way the rest of the non-original
material is chosen and put together.

Conclusion
==========
Because the mainstay of FTL are reports from the wire services
and both major and minor media sourced websites on the internet,
it's hard for me to say what the format is likely to be in
future issues. Really, if it's an interesting or important news
item on the web, it will probably find it's way into Faster Than
Light.

'This-is-not-an-advert-honestly!':-

I operate a somewhat similar service on the web, currently
parked at this URL:

http://www.orion-web-maintenance.com/iufod/index.html

Partly because of a health related problem I am running this
service down, so by the end of the year it will feature only
occasional updates. I think after that, I may well take out a
subscription to FTL!

I know for a fact that there is a small market for a printed
resum of internet sourced UFO news (I do know for certain that
some UFO researchers who are too busy writing books or doing
investigations require this). I can recommend Faster Than Light
for all those who appreciate what the internet has to offer but
who for whatever reason cannot keep up with it all. I also
suggest that FTL will get even better if more original
investigations can be mounted.

This is a good service.

For those who are not interested in, or who actively dislike the
internet, or do not want to read from somewhat 'pro-ETH'
sources, this may not appeal - though if this is the case, I
suggest you give it a try anyway! Send you enquiries to:

Chris Evers
24 Chesnut Avenue
Queens Road
Hull
England
HU5 2RH

For �12 you will recieve six copies; overseas customers should send �20;
there are discounts for introducing a friend
Paul Hunter









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   Aug > Aug 21

                          Review: Northern UFO News

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 18:36:36 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 02:34:11 -0400
Subject: Review: Northern UFO News


The following is a review of "Northern UFO News" newsletter,
reviewed by Paul Hunter, official reviewer for ufologyinuk. If
anyone produces a publication which they would like to be
reviewed by Paul, please get in touch with me.

Joe McGonagle
Administrator, ufologyinuk


Title: Northern UFO News
Author: Jenny Randles
Date of Review: 19th August 2001
Reviewer: Paul Hunter

I received two issues of the A5 sized Northern UFO News to
review: No's 185 and 186, or Winter 2000 and Summer 2001
respectively. In this review I'll try to give an overall
impression of what to expect from Northern UFO News - insofar as
I can tell from just two issues. Each issue has eleven pages of
closely written information.

Northern UFO News seems to follow a set pattern: Editorial, UFO
researcher obituary, General UFO related news, Reading
recommendations/reviews, and Investigations.

There aren't many professional Ufologists in Britain, and Jenny
is perhaps foremost among these, (26 years as editor of Northern
UFO News alone!) so her words should be read carefully by
serious readers of the UFO subject. What you receive for �6 is
five issues per year (or five issues spread out over time if the
editor is too busy with other projects), with discounts for
loyal readers. Each issue consists of Jenny Randles'
observations, thoughts, gut instincts, case investigations and
book reviews - in other words it's nearly 'all Jenny', or nearly
all 'original content': she is never fanciful, speculation where
given is concise, she strains to be factual where possible.

Editorial
=========

Issue 185 starts with a complaint against the state of modern
ufology, comparing what she feels is the sewage of many internet
discussions with a 'new breed' of Ufologists, represented by
UFOIN.

Some UFO readers may feel that UFOIN are (or is that was?)
really sceptics in believers clothing, but Jenny thinks
otherwise saying that UFOIN has 25 of the best minds in the UK.
Essentially she chastises wishful thinking in Ufology, and yet
retains a certain distance from the bulk of UFOIN characterising
may of them as 'neo-sceptics'.

The later edition (186) relays to her readers the media-hyped
Dennis Plunkett affair, with Jenny arguing that this story was
as much a media concoction as an accurate reflection of the
number of UFO sightings world-wide. (I would also add that
Dennis substantially retracted his earlier statements during an
interview with ITV on Tuesday 15th May).

General UFO related news
========================

Fans of Jenny's books, who accept that she tries to pursue a
basically objective line, will probably appreciate her insights
and descriptions of UFO related items in her 'general news'
section where she summarises recent trends in a succinct way.
For example in issue 186, among many other research items, there
is news about project Hessalden, and a report on a John Moor's
University recent finding in psychology that may have a bearing
on the so-called 'Oz' factor, a term I believe Jenny coined
herself. (This latter relates to how people of different ages
perceive time differently, especially if under stress).

I was particularly interested to read an article in issue 185:
"Can Radar Waves Down Aircraft?". I was aware of the book by the
Harvard History (I thought it was English?) Professor, Elaine
Scarry who offended many in the US major media by writing a book
that countered received wisdom on several recent US air
disasters. But Northern UFO New (uniquely?) relates this to some
UFO cases (including Rendlesham). Although I was aware of a
radar link to alleged UFO crashes, the Elaine Scarry angle was
new to me. If there is only one unique insight per five annual
issues, some would say �6 is a small price to pay...

However there are also signs of prejudging the issue, or
cynicism: some more 'pro-ETH' UFO readers may not always like
what they read. Why do I say that? Because in an essay on a
Colin Wilson article for the Daily Mail about crop circles,
(issue 185) she mentions "...some hilarious stuff about circles
representing musical ratios...". So if you're the kind of person
whose response to crop circles is 'tosh!', and 'stuff and
nonsense' you will probably not question this. But if Wilson and
Randles are referring to the astronomer Gerald Hawkins' (Ph.D.)
idea that crop circles reflect a '5th theorem in geometry
(apparently to do with diatonic ratios - i.e., musical scales),
then I think the issue can't be dismissed with laughter. Jenny
rightly opposes wishful thinking in Ufology, but is this not an
inverted type of wishful thinking?

Reading recommendations/reviews
================================
Each issue contains a useful book or newsletter review section -
clearly, Jenny Randles is a voluminous reader on the UFO topic.
There are reviews of the little-known publications such as the
respected 'Bulletin of Anomalous Experience', or some of the
many self-published UFO newsletters: if you publish the latter I
strongly recommend you send a copy soon to:

Northern UFO News
1 Hallsteads Close
Dove Holes
Buxton
Derbyshire
SK17 8BS

However, one book review which I know has not been well received
by everyone is Northern UFO News' review of Georgina Bruni's
"You Can't Tell The People".

I get the impression that Jenny doesn't like the where the
'ideology' of this book is coming from, (she prefers that an
'ideology' more akin to James Easton's I gather), and Georgina
is even criticised for not having enough 'tenancy' in Ufology to
write a major UFO book. Oops, in these terms, I'm probably a
'squatter'...

I also know that to some her review even came across as being
inspired by professional jealousy (internet discussions) - an
entirely unfounded impression I am sure - but to the neo-sceptic
camp the new Rendlesham book is superficial.

Jenny reflects this view - although to be fair she also
recommends the book as a quite good general background guide to
the case. Most of her other reviews are short and less
contentious, and this section is highly useful for all readers
of the ufological spectrum.

Investigations
==============
I am not a UFO researcher and cannot comment too much on the
large sprinkling of new and ongoing cases reviewed in each
issue. But suffice it to say, as you would expect from Jenny
Randles, the approach is down-to-earth and rational, and where
possible her research section is rarely inconclusive. She has
faith that the UFO mystery can be solved by rational enquiry.
Jenny either receives reports from a variety of researchers or
does the research herself. For example in issue 186 Jenny
provides a synopsis of the Snafell 'sky fall' incident of
January 14th 2001 using raw reports from Gloria Dixon, David
Clarke and Chris Rolfe. Reports are sometimes supplemented by
small line drawings (not in colour). One case that I know people
are familiar with, is the Bonsall UFO footage taken on October
5th 2000 - you know the one worth �20,000 to the Fox network of
America! Here Jenny provides an exercise in judgment rather than
research inasmuch as she provisionally reckons the image is the
video camera's internal lens disfiguring 'something', and she
implies that Fox do not really care if the image is 'real' or
not - just as long as big bucks are made. (If you think back to
the infamous 'alien autopsy' footage, which Bob Kiviat bought
for the same network, this seems a reasonable conclusion, given
that the footage was first touted as 'real' evidence for aliens,
then later, as 'real' evidence for faking!).

Clearly she does not like loose ends, and many of the cases I
read, seemed to round-off with a witness misperception
conclusion. Clearly, if 'them pesky aleens' choose to invade us,
they'd be well advised to choose a night when Venus is visible -
almost no-one will believe the witnesses!

Conclusion
==========
I'd recommend Northern UFO News to all those UFO readers who
prefer a somewhat neo-sceptic, (or as they might prefer it, 'new
objectivity') viewpoint: if you like James Easton, Andy Roberts,
David Clarke, Kevin McLure etc this is probably for you.

I'd also recommend Northern UFO News to faithful readers of
Jenny Randles books, as well as readers who are undecided on the
UFO issue. While I feel that some 'pro-ETH' readers will from
time to time find something objectionable in Northern UFO News,
if you don't subscribe you'll may well also miss out on Jenny
Randles often unique insights into UFO research and useful book
and newsletter reviews, which can often bridge the apparent
divide between 'sceptics' and 'believers'. Paul Hunter









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   Aug > Aug 21

                       New Research Center In Portugal

From: Joaquim Fernandes <j.fernan@netcabo.pt>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:04:28 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 02:36:52 -0400
Subject: New Research Center In Portugal


Dear friends,

We proudly announce that at the University Fernando Pessoa was
approved and installed this year the Center for
Transdisciplinary Studies on Consciousness (CTEC), the first of
its kind within the Portuguese academy and also pioneer among
its counterparts in Europe.

He received institutional and scientific framing, with a Council
composed by scholars and researchers from the most respected
portuguese universities and it has credit from the Ministery of
Science as a research unity with regular support.

Its main goals is the study and theoretical and experimental
analysis of the so-caled "extraordinary haman experiences", such
as the abductional syndrome and para-religious experiences, the
ASC's and similar states, and the mind-body connection alleged
concerned with new therapies.

Lectures, seminars and simposia will be the external activities
of the CTEC and a scientific Journal as well.

We invite all the serious and open-minded scientists and
researchers to cooperate with us.

Any question can be sent to:

ctec.simposio@ufp.pt
or jfernan@ufp.pt
and see the www.ufp.pt


Greetings,

Joaquim Fernandes

CTEC Secretary
University Fernando Pessoa
Praca 9 de Abril, 349
4249-004 Porto
Portugal








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   Aug > Aug 21

                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:15:37 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 02:39:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Sparks


 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 20:29:01 -0400


 >>From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >>Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 01:27:26 +0200

 >>>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>>Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 17:47:39 +0100
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 13:03:32 -0400

<snip>

 >Hello Asgeir,

<snip>

 >Since the pictures are of the Roswell debris, it is assumed that
 >the message in Ramey's hand is about Roswell. I am unconvinced
 >by what people are trying to read on the paper. It could be
 >anything, including after action comments about General Van's
 >visit to 8th AF area a few days before.

 >Of course, for the last 50 years everything breathe any Air
 >Force office takes involves UFOs, so all the other paperwork is
 >turned out by gnomes in the Pentagon to cover up what is really
 >going on.

 >Ramey like any general officer had 50 items on his calendar
 >everyday.


Hi Jan,

What on earth are you talking about? This is just plain silly
talk and well below your normal very high standards! Are you
overworked or something?

It is an indisputable _fact_ that the easiest words to read on
the entire Ramey Message are "FORT WORTH, TEX." on Line 3 and
"WEATHER BALLOONS" on Line 7. I read them 16 years ago when I
borrowed a high res enlargement that Bill Moore had obtained.
This tells me, by the way, that they already knew about the
Project MOGUL balloon arrays consisting of multiple weather
balloons since the reference is to plural "WEATHER BALLOONS."
The rest of the text as I read it makes this very clear, i.e.,
that the weather balloons had been found near Roswell.

Most researchers agree that it is "ROSWELL" or "ROSWELL, NMEX."
on Line 5. And I agree that it is signed "RRAMEY" on Line 9.

That pretty much covers most of the visible message and it is
flatout undeniable that it _all_ relates to the Roswell
incident. With the rest of the text filled in as I have been
able to do, including text hidden under Ramey's thumb, it is of
course blatantly obvious it all relates to the Roswell case.


Regards,

Brad






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                      UFO Sightings OZ Files 21-08-2001

From: Diane Harrison <auforn@Ehome.net.au>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 06:22:00 +1000
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 02:44:07 -0400
Subject: UFO Sightings OZ Files 21-08-2001


UFO Sightings OZ Files 21-08-2001

Follow up 1800 Callin Code: 01614 15.07.01 NSW

Date: 15/07/01
Day: Sunday
Time Reported: 9.36 pm
Location: Bathurst, NSW
Reportee: Kimberley
Report Referred to: Veronica

The reportee was watching television on Sunday night, when a
very bright light shining through the window, caught her eye. It
was much bigger than a, star and was moving slowly west. She
watched the light for approximately a minute when she decided to
call her mother and niece. The three of them ran outside where
they continued to watch it for about 30 seconds. It was a
cloudless night, no wind and a quarter moon. Kimberley heard no
sound from the light as it continued to travel west. It then
abruptly stopped and went out like a light bulb. She immediately
felt she had to tell someone and called Telstra to inquire about
a number for such things. The Telstra line made a remark that
they had received a similar report from Goulburn and referred
her to the 1800 number.

Kimberley's mother informed her that a bright light had followed
their car many years before, along the highway between Orange
and Bathurst. Her mum had never mentioned it before Sunday
night.


End Report

Regards Veronica INFODIG NSW

````````````````
Follow up 1800 Callin Code: 01630 22.07.01 SA

Date: 22.07.01
Day: Monday
Time: 7.07 pm
Location: South Australia
Reportee: Michael S
Location: Morphett Vale
Witnesses: 2
Conditions: Clear sky - just after sunset
Referred: Charmaine


Report:

Michael phoned the Hotline number to report that he and his wife
had seen 2 bright lights in the sky on Sunday 22/07/01 around
6.30pm.

Michael was outside in his backyard when he noticed 2 bright
lights in the sky. They were in a SE direction and with one
being smaller than the other. He called out for his wife to come
and join him and also to verify that she could also see these 2
lights.....which she did.

They watched them for about 2-4 mins, during which time, the 2
lights had been travelling together, and they were travelling at
approx the speed of a plane. They then noticed that the larger
light started to fade out, whilst the smaller light, suddenly
shot straight across the sky, basically covering it from horizon
to horizon in a short time, in the direction of Victor Harbour,
which is in a southerly direction.

End Report
Charmaine Ballam
AUFORN State Director - South Australia
[Australian UFO Research Network]


```````````````

Follow up 1800 Callin Code: 01638 25.07.01 S.A.

Date: 25.07.01
Day: Wednesday
Time: 5.45 pm
Location: S.A.
Reportee: Michelle
Referred: Charmaine

Report:

Michelle is a student who lives in the Flinders Ranges. As part
of her school work she is currently doing a project on the
Paranormal. During her research she met a man who stated that he
had taken a photo of a 'light in the sky - ufo' and has given
Michelle the photo for her project.

Michelle then contacted the Hotline for help in getting someone
to look at the photo as well as help for her project.

Michelle will be scanning the photo and emailing it to me
tomorrow from school. I will then take a look at it, and may
also send it onto a couple of people for their opinions on it,
if I feel it looks 'legit'.

End Report
Charmaine Ballam
AUFORN State Director - South Australia
[Australian UFO Research Network]

~~~~~~~~~~

Follow up 1800 Callin Code: 01638 26.07.01 S.A.

Date: 26.07.01
Day: Thursday
Time: 4:52 pm
Location: SA
Reportee: 'J'
Referred: Charmaine


'J' rang the UFO Hotline with a few questions on certain events
that have been happening to her, recently and during her life. I
spoke with 'J' for some time on various issues, from abduction
to paranormal happenings to ufo sightings.

She seemed to feel better after speaking with me and was
appreciative that she was able to speak to someone who could
discuss these things with her, without making fun or thinking
she was 'nuts'.

'J' receives the AUFORN list, so that is why she decided to
phone the Hotline to get some answers to some of these questions
she has had for some time. She also informed me, that she too
had seen the UFO that was reported by many Mt
Gambier/Millicent/Pt McDonald residents in March 2001. Upon
describing it to me, I realised that YES! it was the exact
object that had been sighted as well as photo'd back then. 'J'
also let me know that this was not the first time she had seen a
ufo.

As 'J' lives in Millicent, I have given her my email address, so
she can email me, as well as phone me, when she feels she would
like to discuss more, on things that have happened in her life
and other questions she may have in confidence and privacy.

End Report

Regards,
Charmaine Ballam
AUFORN State Director - South Australia
[Australian UFO Research Network]

```````````````````
Follow up 1800 Callin Code: 01646 30.7.01 NSW
Date: 30.7.01
Day: Monday
Location: Lankays Creek, South NSW
Reportee: Anne

Anne and Roger were travelling along Jingellic Road at 8:31 pm
29/07/01. This road for the most part runs alongside the Murray
River, this area is located on the NSW/Victorian border. They
were travelling from East to West towards Holbrook when they
noticed a bright white light in the Southern Sky over the
National Park. Roger and Anne estimated it was above 6,000 feet
off the ground when they first noticed it and was moving at a 45
degree angle towards the ground. Roger stated it was going
faster than a comet. The object apparently turned red, then
exploded. It then turned green, then a beautiful bright blue and
then disappeared or went out. What is interesting is the
statement that it did not have a tail or leave a trail at all.

Anne who was driving was temporarily vision impaired during the
explosion, her vision was dim, she could not see her own
headlight beams in front of her. Anne stated the following day
that Helicopters were seen flying near the area the following
morning, but states she has seen helicopters flying near the
area before, so it could be a coincidence.

Both of them thought they should report it. They stated they
thought there may be debris from it and that Investigators may
be able to gain access via the 'Human Hovel Walking Track',
which runs along the side of the mountain.

Karen Burden
AUFORN Investigator - NSW


``````````````

Follow Up Callin Codes 1800 01681- 01682 SA
12/08/01 + 13/08/01


Time Reported: 8.45 pm
Location: Semaphore Park SA
Reportee: Liz K
Nearest State Director: Charmaine Ballam
Shape: Disc shaped - approx 8" round
Colour: Orange
Noise: Nil
Direction: travelling from North-westerly to due South
Duration: approx 2 mins
Conditions: Clear night sky - few scattered clouds

Report:

Liz was sitting outside on Saturday 11/08/01 having a cigarette
around 8.30pm, when she first spotted an orange light in the
sky. Whilst she continued to watch it, the one light became
three.

Liz states that the 3 orange disc shaped lights where travelling
in a straight line formation - horizontal eg: ' * * * ' and
thinks most probably the reason she originally saw one light was
that the line at that time was face on, as it moved passed her,
slowly, that is when she noticed three lights.

During the couple of minutes Liz saw these lights she heard no
sound from them, even though they were close enough to have
heard it if it was a light plane, which Liz originally thought
it was. She changed her mind, when she saw the other 2 lights
and the fact that they were flying in such a straight line
formation and that all their colour was orange, not the
blue/red/white of a light aircraft.

When I asked her, how she knew that this were 'disc shaped'
objects, she told me it was because they were so close overhead
that she could discern the shape clearly.

Liz then states that lights just disappeared, as quickly as they
had appeared.

End Report

Regards,
Charmaine Ballam
AUFORN State Director - South Australia
[Australian UFO Research Network]

********************

Follow Up Callin Code: 1800 01683 SA - 18/08/01

Date: 13/08/01
Day: Monday
Time Reported: 8.35 pm
Location: Kangarilla SA
Reportee: Neil
Nearest State Director: Charmaine Ballam
Object: One, Flashing white light
Sound: Nil
Duration: approx 60 - 90 secs
Conditions: clear sky - a few scattered clouds
Direction: travelling from south [ possibly Kangaroo
Island direction] to due north

Report:

Neil was outside at around 7.04pm on Saturday night. The night
sky was clear expect for a few scattered clouds, when he noticed
a bright pulsating light approx 85 degrees overhead, travelling
in a leisurely fashion but up high. What made him really take
notice of this light is the way that it 'flashed'.

It would flash once, for approx 8 secs, stop, then flash again
for approx 3 secs, stop, then again 8 secs, stop, 3 secs, stop
etc. It did that for approx 60 - 90 secs, before just
disappearing.

Neil said, he had good knowledge of the local aircraft that flew
from Kangaroo Island to Adelaide Airport on Saturday nights, as
he had lived in the Kangarilla area for years. Also the
Kangarilla area being in the southern foothills of Adelaide is
well away from city light and noise, that is another reason that
made it stand out in the clear sky... the brightness of it, and
also the lack of sound from it.

He said he had been skywatching for many years, and certainly
knew what a satellite looked like and as stated before a light
aircraft, this he said, was not like anything he had every seen
in all his years [he was an older gentleman] and that is what
made him contact the UFO Hotline. He stressed that if he had
felt even the remote possibility that it could have been a
satellite or plane or even a weather balloon he would not have
rang the hotline.

End Report
Regards,
Charmaine Ballam
AUFORN State Director - South Australia
[Australian UFO Research Network]
http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw

~~~~~~~~~

Follow-up 1800 Callin Code: 01690 14/08/01 QLD

Date: 14/08/01
Day: Tuesday
Duration: 20 seconds
Size: 5 cent piece
Colour: Bright white
Time Reported: 5.30pm
Location: Camp Hill Brisbane QLD
Reportee: Craig
Director, Rep : Emma AUFORN
Report

Brian was travelling in his car on Tuesday evening and observed
4 individual lights travelling in a straight line over the Camp
Hill area. The objects observed were a bright white colour with
a tail appearance. He guestimated the objects to be the size of
a 5 cent piece. He didn't believe they were aircraft as the
objects performed Manoeuvres, going up and down, sideways,
stopping and then loop the looping. He had never seen anything
like it watched them for 30 seconds but lost sight of them as he
was in traffic and had to pay attention etc.


End report
Regards Emma AUFORN


Thank you
Emma, Karen and Charmaine for these reports






--

Regards Diane Harrison

National Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

E-Mail: auforn@Ehome.net.au
E-mail: ufologist@powerup.com.au
http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw

ADMINISTRATION:

PO Box 738
Beaudessert 4285
QLD Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
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         1800 77 22 88 Freecall
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Disclaimer: A.UFO.R.N List Owners are not responsible
for the content or misuse of this list.
However, personal insults, flaming will not be tolerated.
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               Re: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images - Henry

From: Joel Henry <jhenry@visi.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:30:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 02:46:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images - Henry


 >Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 12:45:28 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images

 >>Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 00:09:30 -0400
 >>From: Kenny Young <ufo@FUSE.NET>
 >>Subject: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>Folks;

 >>In regards to the suspected UFO video from Lexington, Kentucky
 >>ABC affiliate Newschannel 36 WTVQ, a preliminary analysis is
 >>underway and still images from that video are now available
 >>online. I hope to receive some explanation for the object on the
 >>video and hopefully a more detailed assessment will follow
 >>shortly.

 >>The link is:

 >>http://home.fuse.net/ufo/lexufo.html

 >Hi Kenny,

 >Thanx for the pix! That's one Hell of a balloon if that's what
 >it is. The size of a van you say. It would have to be a 'one
 >off' custom creation if it is a balloon. How many specialty
 >balloon manufacturers can there be with the capability to
 >produce such a complex creation? I would imagine only one or two
 >of a handful of parade balloon manufacturers would be capable of
 >making a balloon this size, and of this quality of detail. And
 >no anchoring line? Surprising for what -must be- a terribly
 >expensive balloon. (If that's what it is.)

 >If it is a balloon, they should get one for our annual Macy's
 >Thanksgiving Day parade! Far out.  I can hear one of the
 >spectators now:

 >"Martha, get in the car and head for New Jersey! They've landed,
 >they've landed!"  ;)


It looks like Gamara the flying turtle to me.


Joel Henry

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Minnesota MUFON Field Investigator, Minnesota MUFON Journal Editor,
Minnesota MUFON Webmaster
Minnesota MUFON Web Page: http://www.visi.com/~jhenry/index.html








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                      Ex-Pilot Keeps Watching The Skies

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 03:04:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 03:04:29 -0400
Subject: Ex-Pilot Keeps Watching The Skies




From: UFO UpDates - Toronto

Source: The Philadelphia Inquirer

http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2001/08/19/local_news/VITEZ19.htm


Sunday, August 19, 2001


Ex-pilot keeps watching the skies

George Filer saw his first UFO in '62 while flying an Air Force
tanker over England. He now edits an online UFO newsletter.

SURF CITY, N.J. - Around 4 p.m., George Filer 3d took his
plastic deck chair, put it just under the shade of the gazebo,
and began to scan the ocean sky.

"I'm looking for anything interesting in the sky, like a glint,
a reflection off a shiny surface," said the retired Air Force
major, sitting in his aviator glasses, sipping a Coke. He and
his wife rent a house here for the summer, and every weekend
afternoon he perches here.

He looked at the sky above Long Beach Island on this Sunday
afternoon - deep blue, dotted with white clouds. A glint
appeared far to the South, above the beach - an airplane pulling
a Miller Lite banner.

Filer's granddaughter Nicole, 8, in bathing suit and Backstreet
Boys T-shirt, walked past on her way to the ocean. He stopped
her. "About a year ago you told me you saw a UFO," he said.
"Were you just pulling my leg?"

"I saw a shooting star," she said, and skipped away.

George Filer, 65, saw his first UFO in 1962. He was flying a
tanker plane for the Air Force, refueling fighters over England.
The control tower sent his plane to investigate a UFO on the
radar, near Stonehenge. His plane dove from 33,000 feet to 1,000
feet to find it.

"I picked it up on radar - like a ship, a huge aircraft carrier
in the air," he recalled, still excited nearly 40 years later.
"This was the biggest return [image] I'd ever seen on a radar
screen." As his plane approached, the object vanished. "If
you've ever seen the night launch at Cape Canaveral, it just
kind of lit up and took off like that."

His second encounter came a few years ago, from the bedroom of
his Medford Lakes home, which faces Briarwood Lake. "I woke at 4
a.m.," he said. "The bedroom was filled with light pouring in
from out the window. I saw a UFO surfacing. It looked like a
submarine coming out of the water, a blue ionization." His wife
slept through it.

Filer spent 20 years in the Air Force, logging over 5,000 hours
in the air. Most of his career he was an intelligence officer.
He even briefed generals in Vietnam, where "a lot of times we'd
get UFO reports over the DMZ [demilitarized zone]."

After the Air Force, he worked many jobs, including teaching
high school students aerospace science at Cherry Hill West. He
taught about UFOs, among other things: "The kids seemed to like
it. The school didn't." When he retired in 1997, he devoted
himself to finding UFOs.

"For me," he said, it's "like Copernicus, and proving that the
Earth wasn't the center of the solar system. I believe UFOs
exist. I believe we are visited by aliens. I want to change
people's viewpoints. This may be [mankind's] most important
endeavor."

His son, George 4th, 38, an estimator for a construction
company, brought a tray of crackers with crab dip to the gazebo.

"When I was 16, I did see something unusual at summer camp," the
son said, "so I kind of believe they're out there."

Like his mother and two sisters, the son can't quite relate to
his father's zeal. "First couple of years, it was all he wanted
to talk about," the son said. "I guess he's still obsessed about
it, but now he brings other subjects to the table."

Like sports-talk radio. "A lot of them make less sense than UFO
people," Filer said.

Since he retired, Filer has become East Coast director of the
Mutual UFO Network, the nation's largest UFO organization. From
his home office he edits a weekly Internet newsletter known as
Filer's Files.

Two hundred to 400 e-mails pour in monthly of sightings. He
compiles the best ones into Filer's Files (www.filers files.com)
and e-mails the report to 3,000 UFO enthusiasts, as well as to
Congress and the President. He isn't certain the President is
reading his files, but he believes congressional staffers are.

In May, he spoke at the National Press Club in Washington along
with 20 other UFO experts - a session that was barely mentioned
in the media.

Which he can't understand. Popular culture has embraced the
notion of UFOs. Just consider the movie Independence Day. Or
E.T. "People say they're more likely to see a UFO than a Social
Security check," he said.

Beside him on the gazebo railing was his Sony Handycam, with the
700X zoom - just in case he spotted an alien ship. He believes
the right photograph or video of a UFO could bring up to $1
million.

Before he got into UFOs, he used to look for Spanish doubloons
on the beach. "I feel I'm much more likely to find a UFO," he
said.

This afternoon he saw beer planes. Seagulls. A styrofoam rocket
shot into the air with a rubber strap by a little kid next door.

No UFOs.

He watched until his family called him for dinner - burgers and
dogs on the grill.









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   Aug > Aug 21

                          Secrecy News -- 08/20/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@igc.org>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 13:05:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 03:06:54 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/20/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
August 20, 2001

**GAO VIEWS IMPEDIMENTS TO PROSECUTING SPIES
**PUBLICATION OF CHINA NUKE BOOK STILL BLOCKED


GAO VIEWS IMPEDIMENTS TO PROSECUTING SPIES

If Aldrich Ames had not pleaded guilty to espionage in 1994 and
if his case had proceeded to trial, a court might have
suppressed much of the evidence against him because it was
collected without a criminal warrant, thereby placing his
conviction in doubt, according to some Justice Department
officials.

Though counterintelligence information has never been excluded
from the prosecution of a suspected spy in this way, the process
of converting a counterintelligence investigation into a
criminal case is a delicate one that is fraught with procedural
uncertainties.

The General Accounting Office provides a rare glimpse into the
ambivalent relations between spyhunters and prosecutors in a
report released last week entitled "FBI Intelligence
Investigations: Coordination Within Justice on
Counterintelligence Criminal Matters is Limited." The text of
the report (a 500 kB PDF file) may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/gao/d01780.pdf


PUBLICATION OF CHINA NUKE BOOK STILL BLOCKED

A 500 page manuscript describing China's nuclear weapons program
by former Los Alamos official Danny B. Stillman is still being
withheld from publication 19 months after it was submitted to
the government for pre-publication review to identify
information that might be classified.

In briefs filed on Friday, Stillman's attorney Mark S. Zaid
argued that the continuing delay in resolving the matter is "an
unconstitutional prior restraint" on Stillman's free speech. Mr.
Zaid asked the DC District Court to convene a public evidentiary
hearing in which the government would be obliged to justify its
classification decisions under cross examination.

Following the initial filing of Stillman's lawsuit in June of
this year, government reviewers narrowed their opposition to
publication substantially. Within two weeks, they released 85%
of the text. The remainder is still in contention.

Mr. Stillman's obligation to submit his work for prepublication
review stems from the secrecy agreement he signed to gain a
security clearance for access to intelligence information as
part of his job at Los Alamos. What makes this case rather
novel, however, is that most of the information in his
manuscript was gathered outside of his employment in private
visits to China. The government's attempts to suppress this
information therefore represent a significant expansion of its
censorship function.

Mr. Zaid's August 17 brief on behalf of Mr. Stillman presents
the facts of the case followed by a vigorous argument against
the government's open-ended "review." See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/08/stillman_memo.html

******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@fas.org> with this
command in the body of the message:

subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]


Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html


_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691








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               Re: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 17:49:07 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 03:10:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images - Ledger


 >Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 20:26:36 -0400
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images

 >>Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 12:45:28 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images

 >>>Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 00:09:30 -0400
 >>>From: Kenny Young <ufo@FUSE.NET>
 >>>Subject: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>Folks;

 >>>In regards to the suspected UFO video from Lexington, Kentucky
 >>>ABC affiliate Newschannel 36 WTVQ, a preliminary analysis is
 >>>underway and still images from that video are now available
 >>>online. I hope to receive some explanation for the object on the
 >>>video and hopefully a more detailed assessment will follow
 >>>shortly.

 >>>The link is:

 >>>http://home.fuse.net/ufo/lexufo.html

 >>Thanx for the pix! That's one Hell of a balloon if that's what
 >>it is. The size of a van you say. It would have to be a 'one
 >>off' custom creation if it is a balloon. How many specialty
 >>balloon manufacturers can there be with the capability to
 >>produce such a complex creation? I would imagine only one or two
 >>of a handful of parade balloon manufacturers would be capable of
 >>making a balloon this size, and of this quality of detail. And
 >>no anchoring line? Surprising for what -must be- a terribly
 >>expensive balloon. (If that's what it is.)

 >>If it is a balloon, they should get one for our annual Macy's
 >>Thanksgiving Day parade! Far out.  I can hear one of the
 >>spectators now:

 >>"Martha, get in the car and head for New Jersey! They've landed,
 >>they've landed!"  ;)

 >Hi John;

 >So far the general reaction is "balloon" by far. Given the
 >balloon-like appearance on the still images and videotape (with
 >slight rotation and wobble while ascending upward) I can't
 >fathom why this was reported as a UFO and has generated debate
 >there in Lexington (acknowledging that some in the newsroom did
 >advance the 'mylar balloon' theory to be sure).

 >But this was thought to be a UFO and of some importance. It
 >seems this goes to show just how easily misperception (possibly
 >combined with a little dose of agenda for flavoring) so easily
 >causes some to be led astray.


Hi Kenny,

Have you checked the winds for that day and location?


Don Ledger









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                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 21:47:52 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 03:56:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 21:59:34 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 17:47:39 +0100
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris

 ><snip>

 >>And the AA symbols I'm talking about _are_ _not_ the publicised
 >>beam symbols that every one who has seen the AA are familiar
 >>with.

 >>The symbols that match those seen in the FW pictures sit
 >>along a beam on one of the tables seen in the _background_ of
 >>the "debris footage" and as far as I'm aware were totally
 >>un-noticed until I hit on them by chance, late in 1999, no one
 >>else has come forward to claim prior knowledge of these to date.

 >Now let me get it straight. The hoaxer would have had to
 >publicly announce the existance of the little details he or she
 >had noticed in the Fort Worth pictures and had decided to
 >duplicate to make the fake debris look better?

 >>A similar point can be made for the FW pictures, has anyone
 >>before the RPIT claimed to have found symbols lurking within
 >>the debris on Ramey's floor potted them?, and at a date before
 >>the AA film surfaced in 1993?.

 >The problem with your argument is that in order for it to be
 >true, there would have to be no one on this Earth who is either
 >as observant or as smart as you.

 >You obvously think that that is extremely unlikely.

 >This seems like it could be a fatal flaw in your hypothesis,
 >Neil.

I think it is increasingly unlikely yes.

True it is possible somebody could have done some very in depth
research (in addition to all the other highly technical research
required to fabricate the AA if a hoax) if only the well known
UTA images alone were involved. But what I find compelling is
that the cross match of symbols includes the rare Bettmann image
and the symbol found in the Bettmann _only_ appears in the
Bettmann not any of the UTA images.

So what?, you might say.

I think it's true to say the UTA images have been public
knowledge, other than after their initial press publication, due
to their use in Roswell publications from 1980 onwards. But as
far as I'm aware none of the main stream works makes mention or
reproduces the Bettmann image, I have one work only in my
collection that uses the Bettmann, but that was published in
1995, after the AA appeared some 2 years before. (Ray Santilli
first saw the film in 1993, other people claim to have seen it
in the 60's)

I believe it was Kevin Randle who traced this image but I'm
unaware just when and if he has ever used it in reproduction in
any of his works, he hasn't in the ones I have, perhaps he can
comment on this, I'd be interested to know.

So if our hoaxers put together the AA with hidden FW pic details
in the 80's as you suggest, are they going to re-invent the
wheel and do a national archive picture search for the Fort
Worth images or the sensible thing and pinch other peoples
published research and then hit the UTA for a set of prints?. If
I were doing it I would go with the flow and assume the likes of
Randle, Schmitt, Friedman Beliner and Moore had done their
homework, why go hunting for more images when you know the UTA
had 4 originals??.

Another problem are those witnesses who claim to have seen the
AA film back in the 60's and 70's before even the UTA prints
were known about.

 >>>I wonder how Marcel got 777,500 square feet of anything in the
 >>>trunk of his little old car?

 >>Ah, but Cavitt had a "carry-all", see later.

 >See above..

 ><snip>

 >>>What makes 10% coverage necessary to notice some shiny debris
 >>>laying out on the desert? There is a mighty big assumption
 >>>being made here.

 >>>Did Brazel ever say that the area was covered to this density?

 >>Nope, but if Tommy Tyree, the ranch hand who worked with Mack shortly
 >>after the event is to be believed, the density was such as to
 >>trouble Mack's sheep to the extent they wouldn't cross the debris
 >>field, and he had to drive them around it.

 >You've interviewed the sheep, Neil, and they agree that it was
 >10% coverage?

 >>Sorry Bob you've lost me here, the numbers used are _directly_
 >>from witness testimony

 >1947 witness testimony?

Which?

Or are you thinking about Cavitt's description?.

 >>and pictures?, am I to assume you are
 >>referring to JBJ's FW pics (?so you agree the debris shown _is_
 >>some of that from Roswell? or do you know of some others?)

 >Yes.

Which?

 >>which according to Jesse Marcel only show a small portion of
 >>what was transported to FWAAF aboard that B29's flight and
 >>that debris flight only held what he and Cavitt had recovered
 >>from the debris field. Most of the debris was still left behind
 >>out there on the ranch.

 >What is the date and citation for this 1947 quotation, please.

 ><snip>

 >>so how come they filled the carryall and Marcel's Buick yet
 >>still left the larger part of the debris out there?.

 >Please provide a citation and date for the eyewitness testimony
 >that they filled the carryall and Buick with debris, yet still
 >left most behind?

Jesse Marcel "The Roswell Incident" my copy P69, interviewed in
1979.

"We collected all the debris we could handle. When we had filled
the Carry-all, I began to fill the trunk and back seat of the
Buick."

And I guess you'll class it as hearsay but..

Jesse Marcel Jnr page 73 same book.

"He had a 1942 Buick and a Carry-all trailer, and both were
loaded with this material which was only a small fraction of the
total material."


Neil









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                        Re: Ramey's Debris - Skavhaug

From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 23:12:19 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 04:07:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Skavhaug


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 21:59:34 EDT
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Young

 >>Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 17:47:39 +0100
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 23:32:38 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>And the AA symbols I'm talking about _are_ _not_ the publicised
 >>beam symbols that every one who has seen the AA are familiar
 >>with.

 >>The symbols that match those seen in the FW pictures sit
 >>along a beam on one of the tables seen in the _background_ of
 >>the "debris footage" and as far as I'm aware were totally
 >>un-noticed until I hit on them by chance, late in 1999, no one
 >>else has come forward to claim prior knowledge of these to date.

 >Now let me get it straight. The hoaxer would have had to
 >publicly announce the existance of the little details he or she
 >had noticed in the Fort Worth pictures and had decided to
 >duplicate to make the fake debris look better?

<snip>

 >>A similar point can be made for the FW pictures, has anyone
 >>before the RPIT claimed to have found symbols lurking within
 >>the debris on Ramey's floor potted them?, and at a date before
 >>the AA film surfaced in 1993?.

<snip>

 >Clear skies,

 >Bob Young

Bob, Neil & List:

According to an interview with Mac Brazel in Roswell Daily
Chronicle, July 9, 1947,

http://www.grassyhill.com/Roswell/Witnesses/brazel.htm

they were observing this (excerpts):

"(...)When the debris was gathered up the tinfoil, paper, tape,
and sticks made a bundle about three feet long and 7 or 8 inches
thick, while the rubber made a bundle about 18 or 20 inches long
and about 8 inches thick. In all, he estimated, the entire lot
would have weighed maybe five pounds.

There was no sign of any metal in the area which might have been
used for an engine and no sign of any propellors of any kind,
although at least one paper fin had been glued onto some of the
tinfoil.

There were no words to be found anywhere on the instrument,
although there were _letters_ on some of the parts. Considerable
scotch tape and some tape with flowers printed upon it had been
used in the construction.(...)"

The "letters" could be anything, i.e., letters from our
alphabet, Arabic, etc., and with some fantasy from the AA
makers, they could create "hieroglyphic letters" or symbols of
almost any kind, some of them even resembling those from the
Ramey office.

However, I don't know whether Brazel's stuff really was
identical to the material in Ramey's office.

However, I do agree with Neil that "some symbols" could possibly
be identified/observed on the Ramey office photos.

In any case, using "scotch tape" and no metallic materials
(however, today, light weight composite materials could do some
of the "metallic job"), Brazel's debris -- alone -- sure seemed
to be of the flimsy type, and _not_ really designed for a high
speed, upper atmosphere penetration, and possibly coming from
outer space...


Regards,

Asgeir









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                Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
Date: 20 Aug 2001 14:51:01 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 04:11:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -


 >Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:55:08 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >Wow!

 >It simply amazes me how; what was originally a simple expression
 >of concern for the well being of a fellow human being, has been
 >twisted into this maelstrom of contentious debate.

Have you written a letter to her Congress woman telling her that
after 30 days Lara is in serious trouble as you believe, and
pleading with her to do what she can while time remains. Posting
on this board does nothing to help Lara.

 >How my
 >expression of genuine concern for Lara has been tortuously
 >interpreted as an attempt to "control" I'll never know. My mind
 >just isn't that convoluted so I can't even follow the thought
 >processes involved that would permit anyone to derive such a
 >sick meaning from my posts to Lara. Must be 'somebody'
 >interpreting things the way they want to interpret them regardless
 >of actual content or intent. A form of "prejudice" if you will.

 >Just to clarify this for anyone who may be laboring under delusions
 >or misinterpretations; my legitimate concerns for Lara stem
 >from the following:

 >1. Lara is engaged in a long term fast with no set terminus. (She
 >plans to fast until George Bush caves and responds to her ultimatum.)

You don't know this for sure. If there was a terminus it sure
would not be made public for Bush to read.

 >2. Fasts which extend beyond thirty days _are_physically_harmful_
 >to the individual that is fasting.

A medical reference for this please.

 >3. Her fast is being supervised by an 'herbologist' not a physician.
 >(A physician can monitor her blood chemistry and provide her with
 >sound medical advice should any changes that are hazardous to her
 >health transpire. She can then adjust her nutrient intake accordingly
 >in order to protect her health.)

Old info. Ernie Vega is arranging for a western pill giving
witch doctor to supervise.

 >4. Lara, for all her admirable character attributes is just a human
 >being with all the limitations and physical shortcomings that we
 >are all prone to.

Did someone say she wasn't?

 >Those of you who find it 'easy' to egg her on and encourage her
 >without ever _once_ mentioning the potential hazard to her well
 >being are doing her a tremendous disservice. Honestly, I get
 >tired of 'windbags' that have nothing better to do than to hop
 >onto every bandwagon that rolls into town without once taking
 >the time to think it through or to conduct a critical evaluation
 >as to its value.

You are claiming those who are involved have not mentioned to
her the downside of things?

 >Worse yet, some will take the good intentions of others and twist
 >and cajole it into their own very sick and twisted interpretations.

I totally agree.

 >I trust that the more intelligent among the assembled are able to
 >see the (self serving) interpretations of these individuals for what
 >it is. Empty lip-service. (Talking just to hear the lilting sound of
 >ones own voice.)

I agree again.

 >I'd have a lot more respect for some of her supporters if they
 >had the cojones to join her in her fast rather than taking the
 >easy (and cowardly) route of twisting the meaning of, and verbally
 >castigating and criticizing others who are expressing _genuine_
 >concern for Lara's well being.

Talk is cheap. Do something for Lara to really help her. Write
her congress woman who can actually do somthing to stop the
fast.

 >All I have done is express my concern for Lara. It is 'others'
 >who are (once again) trying hard to turn it all into an adversarial
 >(we/they) situation. The finger pointer's are the ones who
 >continually expend energy to keep the UFO community divided.
 >They are not only the instigators and culprits of it, they are
 >the ones who are guilty of the divisiveness  they so easily and
 >thoughtlessly 'blame' on others.

Speaking for myself, I wrote up the story of what Lara had done.

Grant


"Are you ready for the revolution?"
Lara Johnstone, a California woman who began a Hunger Strike for
Disclosure on July 28th.










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Aug > Aug 21

                        Re: Ramey's Debris - Skavhaug

From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 01:21:01 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 04:14:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Skavhaug


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 15:03:51 EDT
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Rudiak

 >>From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >>Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 01:27:26 +0200

 >>>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>>Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 17:47:39 +0100
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Fwd Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 13:03:32 -0400

 >>Neil & List:

 >>I've been studying the photos at this site:

 >>http://www.thefortworthphotographs.freeserve.co.uk/ftw-pics/index.htm

<snip>

 >>1.Photo F is taken first, in Ramey's office, while Col. DuBose
 >>was properly dressed, with his jacket, cap and tie. He's also
 >>holding a piece of paper, looking similar to the "Ramey
 >>message". This can imply that he got/brought the message to the
 >>office, and maybe he read it first (or, maybe he wrote it, as a
 >>some sort of "quick report", to Gen. Ramey? I.e, the last line
 >>on the Ramey message (line 9) reads (hand written):
 >>DuBose....?). (The pieces of debris may have been
 >>located/arranged on the floor by Marcel, in advance.)

 >You seem to be confusing Gen. Ramey with Col. Dubose. Dubose is
 >never dressed up with his cap and tie and never holds the
 >message. The man all dressed up and crouching down by the debris
 >and holding the message in his left hand is Gen. Ramey in photos
 >C - F. It is _not_ Col. Dubose in photo F -- it is Ramey.

 >The last line on the Ramey message (line 9) is not hand-written
 >-- it is typed (though there is handwriting underneath that
 >slants upward and crosses the end of the signature. The
 >signature line is definitely not that of Dubose. I think it says
 >"RAMEY" though others claim it says "TEMPLE".

 >>2. Photo E, the next photo; DuBose takes off his jacket, tie and
 >>cap, and puts the tie on the radiator, and the cap on the first
 >>chair. He then sits down on the third chair from left. Then he
 >>leaves the paper to Ramey - who's properly dressed "for the
 >>photographers" - and who sits down (before or after reading the
 >>message). (He won't sit down on the first chair, because of
 >>DuBose's cap...)

 >Yes, it is Dubose seated in photo E, just as he is in photo D,
 >but the dressed-up man crouching down in photo F is Ramey,
 >exactly the same as in photos C, D, and E. Dubose never takes
 >off his jacket, tie, and cap, because he never has them on. I'm
 >surprised you could get confused about this.

 >>I also think that the "badge" on Ramey's upper arm should be
 >>worth studying more closely - under high magnification and
 >>enhancement. (Maybe some design similarity with the seal..?)

 >Probably just a standard AAF arm patch. What do you think this
 >would tell us?

 >>(But, why does DuBose undress _in Ramey's office_, removing tie,
 >>cap and jacket...in front of the photographers? Has he become
 >>'distressed and unbalanced' after the events, after
 >>reading/writing the message....?)

 >No, because he never "undresses." You have confused the
 >dressed-up Ramey in photo F with the "undressed" Dubose in
 >photos D and E.

 >>3. Photo C or D are taken afterwards, as the two are getting
 >>more "relaxed". Is Ramey having a smoke? Is he having a smoke to
 >>relax/"calm down" after having read the message/report? (From
 >>DuBose...?)

 >You draw some very odd conclusions from so little. Looks to me
 >that Ramey just has his right hand in front of his face in photo
 >C. Would the General sneak a smoke in the middle of a photo
 >session with a civilian reporter?

<snip>

 >How do you draw the conclusion that Marcel removed material?

 >>I have assumed/proposed here that DuBose brought the message to
 >>Ramey, i.e., from Colonel to General, maybe as a report.
 >>
 >>(Maybe JB Johnson can verify some of these

 >Your assumption that Dubose brought Ramey the message is
 >unwarranted, since Dubose is never pictured holding the message,
 >as you propose. You have confused Gen. Ramey and Dubose in one
 >of the photos.

 >David Rudiak


David & List:

The 'standard' arm patch could possibly be fairly identical in
design, as the message seal, or letter head. At least, there
might be _some_ design features in common (if this really means
anything).

Further, maybe Neil, through high magnification and enhancement,
can tell us if Ramey has actually sneaked a smoke here...?

Marcel was supposed to have brought with him the real debris
(or maybe it was "the other" debris...),

http://www.grassyhill.com/Roswell/Witnesses/ColDubose.htm

and, most likely, he also removed the material from Ramey's office,
which he, most likely, also had put there himself.

Also note that Marcel mentioned _metallic debris_ on the floor.

http://www.grassyhill.com/Roswell/Witnesses/MarcelMyths.htm

"(...)General Ramey allowed some members of the press in to take
a picture of the stuff. They took one picture of me on the floor
holding up some of the less-interesting _metallic_ debris. The
press was allowed to photograph this, but were not allowed far
enough into the room to touch it. The stuff in that photo was
pieces of the actual stuff we found (...)."

but Brazel did not:

http://www.grassyhill.com/Roswell/Witnesses/brazel.htm

"(...)There was no sign of any metal in the area which might
have been used for an engine and no sign of any propellors of
any kind, although at least one paper fin had been glued onto
some of the tinfoil.(...)"

Apparently, it _seems_ that the stuff found by Brazel and
the material in Rameys office is to be the same:

http://www.grassyhill.com/Roswell/Articles/PressReports.htm#9


"(...) According to information released by the department, over
authority of Maj. J. A. Marcel, intelligence officer, the disk
was recovered on a ranch in the Roswell vicinity, after an
unidentified rancher had notified Sheriff Geo. Wilcox here, that
he had found the instrument on his premises.

Major Marcel and a detail from his department went to the ranch
and recovered the disk, it was stated.

After the intelligence officer here had inspected the instrument
it was flown to higher headquarters.(...)

General Roger Ramey, Commander of the Eighth Air Force with
headquarters at Fort Worth Texas, received the object from
Roswell Army Air Base (Marcel, personally, couriered from
Roswell to Fort Worth on orders of General Ramey). It is being
shipped by air to the Army Air Force Research Centre at Wright
Field, Ohio.(...)"

So, the Ramey office debris, apparently, followed the path:
Brazel's ranch ---> Marcel @ RAAB ----> (couriered by Marcel) by
air to 'higher headquarters' and Ramey's office, @ EAF, FW,
Texas (where JBJ takes his 6 photos of Marcel, DuBose and Ramey)
---> by air to AAFRC @ WF, Ohio.

Further, it _could be_ that 'metallic debris' and 'tinfoil' is
taken as being the same thing...

By the way, how can it be that "(...)the RPIT is now working
with a theory that the markings that are barely visible in the
Johnson photos may be glyphs from 1000BC Egypt!"? I.e.:

http://www.grassyhill.com/Roswell/Witnesses/bjohnson.htm

Can it be that the debris comes from an "archaeological site",
where it was brought to in ancient times, or blown all the way
from Egypt in ancient times, and settled on Brazel's farm?

Further, I _did_ see the text saying it was Ramey on 'photo F'.
However, by comparing DuBose's face on "photo E" with the face
on "photo F", I think the man on 'photo F' looks more like 'a
properly dressed' DuBose...(Though, we can see something 'under
his nose' which surely _might look_ like a moustache --
something which Ramey ' has got -- but it may also be 'some
shadow' created by the flash, or by the newspaper printing; I do
-- personally -- think so. We can also see that the white
message/paper shown in his hands is actually smaller in size in
'photo F', than in the hands of Ramey in 'photo E' (the size in
photo E is almost twice the size), something which indicates
that the paper has been significantly altered (e.g., read)
between those two photos.

This, all together, makes me believe it's actually DuBose as
'Ramey alone', or 'lost Ramey', in 'photo F'. (Did JBJ prepare
the text under the photo?)

But, all this doesn't necessarily mean that much; it's just some
independent observations, and subjective analyses.


Regards,

Asgeir













   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Aug > Aug 21

                       National UFO Conference Update

From: SMiles Lewis <smiles@elfis.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:54:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 10:56:14 -0400
Subject: National UFO Conference Update


The 38th Annual
NATIONAL UFO CONFERENCE
September 14-15-16
Austin, Texas
www.nufoc.net
www.drafthouse.com/downtown.html

     SPONSORED BY
The Elfis Network, theUFOstore.com, Gomi-"The Cure for Mundane
Living", Vulcan Video, Creatures, Waterloo Records & Video,
Quanset Hut, Insty Prints

UpDate Contents:

-Speaker Focus
-Event Themes Each Day
-Live Music Each Night
-Advance Ticket Discount

-=-=-

NUFOC 38 SPEAKERS

Robert Anton Wilson, Jenny Randles, Constance Clear, Patrick
Huyghe, Karl Pflock, Kenn Thomas, Greg Bishop, Eugenia Macer-
Story, James Arthur, David Perkins, James Moseley, Mack White,
Russ Dowden, Tom Deuley, Loren Coleman, Diana Hoyt, Pamela
Stonebrooke, Bruce Wright, Ed Conroy, Erik Stearns, Dennis Stacy,
Don Webb, Miles Lewis, Tim Brigham, Steve Mizrach, Jim Beal.

     -Kenn Thomas-
Kenn Thomas is founder, publisher and editor of Steamshovel
Press, one of the world's most respected alternative media
publications. He is also one of America's best known conspiracy
writers and the author of seven published books on a variety of
topics.

Thomas lectures widely and appears regularly on television and
radio programs, including Fox News Full Nelson, Rob McConnell's
X-Zone, Sightings on the Radio, Strange Daze and Coast To Coast
AM with Art Bell.

Books By Kenn Thomas include: Maury Island UFO, Inside the
Gemstone File, Flying Saucers over Los Angeles, Mind Control,
Oswald and JFK, NASA, Nazis and JFK, The Octopus, Popular
Alienation.

Kenn is presenting "The ParaPolitics of UFOs/Maury Island & the
Crisman Conspiracy" Sunday afternoon. He will also be
participating
in several panel discussions.

For more information about Kenn Thomas...
http://www.nufoc.net/thomas.htm
http://www.steamshovelpress.com

Check out pages from the Maury Island comic book...
http://www.seattleartbellchatclub.com/Maury.html


     -Constance Clear-
Abduction therapist & author of Reaching for Reality. Constance
hosts the nightly radio show/webcast Clear Talk. Lecturer and
psychotherapist Clear has a Master of Arts degree in psychology
from Trinity University and a Master of Social Work degree from
Our Lady of the Lake University. She has been in private
practice since 1976, working with individuals, couples, and
families. After fifteen years of facilitating a support group
for bereaved parents, Constance began to study the UFO
phenomena, which led to her working with abductees and
culminated in the creation of this book. Her credentials
include: L.M.S.W.-A.C.P., L.M.F.T., A.C.S.W., and B.C.D.

For more information about Constance Clear...
http://www.nufoc.net/clear.htm
http://www.reachingforreality.com


     -Patrick Huyghe-
Patrick Huyghe is presently the editor-in-chief of Paraview Press in
New York, and the editor of a twice-yearly journal on the mysteries
of science,  history, and nature called The Anomalist. Under the
company name JustDuckie, he also maintains several web sites, which
he created, including the online version of The Anomalist and Small
Comets, the news site for information on the discovery of small
comets.

Huyghe holds a BA in social psychology from the University of
Virginia and an MS in journalism from Syracuse University. After
two years of editing and writing on the staffs of Us and Newsweek
magazines, he turned freelance in 1980. Since then he has written for
dozens of magazines, from The New York Times Magazine and
Discover, to Psychology Today and Reader's Digest, Health and
Omni, Audubon and The Sciences, and many others. During his two
decades as a science writer he also served stints as contributing
editor to both Science Digest and Omni.

Huyghe has also contributed to Time-Life, Reader's Digest, and
Scribner's book series, taught science writing at the college level,
produced public TV documentaries for WGBH-Boston and WNET-
New York, and written exhibit text and interactive scripts for the
Liberty Science Center in New Jersey, the Petrosains Discovery
Center in Malaysia, and Monsanto's "Beautiful Science" exhibit at
EPCOT.

Huyghe has authored three books. His latest is titled, Swamp Gas
Times: My Two Decades on the UFO Beat.

For more information about Patrick Huyghe...
http://www.nufoc.net/huyghe.htm
http://www.PatrickHuyghe.com
http://www.Anomalist.com
http://www.ParaView.com


     -Diana Palmer Hoyt-
Diana has writtern her masters thesis on the academic ridicule of the
UFO subject: UFOs, Social Intelligence and the Condon Committee.
Diana is currently employed by NASA.

Diana is presenting Friday afternoon on "UFOs as Forbidden Science".
She will also be participating in the Friday afternoon panel discussion
"Best Future Research/Gaining Legitimacy".

For more information about Diana Hoyt...
http://www.nufoc.net/hoyt.htm
http://www.policy.nasa.gov/hoyt.html


     -Ed Conroy-
Author of Report on Communion: An Independent Investigation of
and Commentary on Whitley Strieber�s Communion. Ed Conroy was
a free-lance writer for the San Antonio (TX) Express-News and other
publications, specializing in arts and entertainment. He is a graduate
of the California Institute of the Arts� School of Critical Studies, and
lives in San Antonio.

His independent investigation of Whitley Strieber�s nonfiction book
Communion is every bit as eye-opening as Communion itself. As the
first in-depth report that attempts to verify experiences related by
Strieber in that work, Report on Communion studies the �visitor�
and UFO �abduction� phenomena. Ed Conroy presents the story
behind the book and the media uproar it created in order to allow
the reader to make up his or her own mind about the most
compelling and widely read account of an apparent UFO
"abduction.�

With Strieber�s full cooperation, Conroy has interviewed figures
important to Strieber�s childhood, the writing of Communion and
Transformation, his writing career in general, and the making of the
film of the book. Conroy has conducted original research on similar
�visitor� experiences in the vicinity of Strieber�s boyhood home in
San Antonio, Texas, cross-verified facts presented in order to
approach rationally the UFO phenomenon; and records his own
experiences for the reader to interpret.

Conroy also discusses Communion within the larger context of the
myths, folklore, and reality of our world, including the possible
relationship between the �visitors� and the fairies and leprechauns of
legend. He explores Communion�s place in the American UFO
community and includes an exclusive interview that gives Strieber�s
own thoughts on the identity of the �visitors.� But perhaps the most
important question addressed in Report on Communion is �If
Strieber is telling the truth, and humanity is actually entering into a
new relationship with entities who are intervening dramatically in our
most personal affairs, then what kind of relationship are we to
establish with them?�

Ed Conroy will be presenting Sunday afternoon. His talk is titled
"From UFO Researcher to Cabalist: Conroy's Transformation After
His Journey Through Communion". He will also be participating in the
Sunday afternoon panel discussion "Balancing Experiencer Therapy &
Event Investigations".

For more information about Ed Conroy...
http://www.nufoc.net/conroy.htm



     -Greg Bishop-
Editor of The Excluded Middle magazine and researcher into UFOs
and Alien Writing and their interconnections with altered states of
consciousness and shamanism. His articles have graced the pages of
Fortean Times, Magickal Blend and others.

In his article "ET Play Ball," written for The Konformist, Greg looks
at connections between the infamous Roswell incident and inter-
racial developments in sport.
http://www.konformist.com/1999/etplayball.htm

"The Great Rock Convention," co-written with conspiriologist Kenn
Thomas for Fortean Times magazine, is an outstanding article on one
of Greg's favorite subjects; early UFO contactees and the Giant Rock
gatherings. Gain some insight into the beginnings of a contemporary
New Religious Movement.
http://www.forteantimes.com/artic/118/rock.html

Greg will be presenting Saturday afternoon on "Psychedelics, Alien
Abductions, Shamanism and Alien Writing". He will also be
participating in several panel discussions.

For more information about Greg Bishop...
http://www.nufoc.net/bishop.htm

Check out the official web site for The Excluded Middle, one of the
most interesting conspiriology and weird culture zines, founded in
1993. The archived articles are a stimulating read, ranging from
familiar topics such as UFOlogy and Nikola Tesla to Cabbalistic
interpreteations of Dr. Seuss tales. A must-read site!
http://www.excludedmiddle.com

There you can read famous interviews by Greg Bishop of...
William "Bill" Moore, Karla Turner, Keith Thompson, Richard
Boylan, James Moseley, Dean Radin, Ira Einhorn

-=-=-

Each full day of this year's National UFO Conference has a
theme. There are many important facets to unraveling the ufo
mystery so we've chosen to focus each days presentations towards
certain key componants of the phenomenon.


     Friday's focus: "The Future of UFOlogy"

What does the future hold for the scientific investigation of
the UFO phenomenon? Despite all the ridicule and lack of
official scientific inquiry, many dedicated researchers have led
the way investigating everything from UFO landing traces to the
stories of contact described by the witnesses themselves. Much
has been accomplished over the years and there is still much
work to do.

Hard at work behind the scenes, this day's lineup of presenters
will educate you about where we have been and where we are going
in the scientific quest for understanding of Earth's greatest
mysteries.

Is there any evidence for the claims of Goverment suppresed
crashed saucer retrievals such as the El Indio and, more famous,
Roswell New Mexico crash of 1947? How might we use the latest
technologies to aid us in our search for answers to the ufo
enigma? What can we learn from Academia's ridicule of the ufo
subject? How can we use that knowledge to turn the tide of
derision and begin anew to ask the right questions?


     Saturday's focus: "Alternate Paradigms for the UFO
     Phenomenon"

There has always been a tendacy to "escalate hypotheses" while
grappling with the "ufo problem." When the modern era of flying
saucers began it was easy to speculate about their possible
origins; advanced aircraft of an enemy nation was usually the
first idea put forth. Misperceived natural phenomena was another
popular explaination which still seems valid for weeding out the
80-95% "haystack" of IFOs (Identified Flying Objects) that
dilute the true UFO reports. But it was the ExtraTerrestrial
Hypothesis that quickly emerged as the main contender for the
modern public's ideas about the origins of UFOs.

Despite the extraterrestrial hypothesis' popularity and surface
level viability as the best explanation for UFO sightings and
close encounters, many researchers began looking elsewhere for
new hypotheses to better account for all the ufo data. In the
1970s a number of new theories emerged to explain ufos and
related phenomena. The Paranormal Hypothesis became popular
among those fluent in parapsychological research as well as
those identifying their interests in the strange with the
monikers of Forteana, Parapsychology and Anomalistics.

With subjects as diverse as consciousness and dream research,
apparition reports and ghost stories, cattle mutilations and
crop circles, psychedelics and perception, unknown animals and
paranormal beings, astral travel and out of body experiences,
shamanism and spiritual transformation... Saturday's speakers
will shatter your preconceptions about the Paradigms you believe
in and live by.


     Sunday's focus: "Integrating the Anomalous"

The focus of the final conference day is the "bottom line" of
these strange phenomena; how do we integrate the anomalous into
our lives? Sunday's speakers are well equipped to help us
individually and as a society to navigate the ambiguous multiple
paradigms inherant in UFO related phenomena..

While science has tried to quantify the UFO phenomena through
its various instruments of investigation such as radar,
magnetometers, chemical analyzers, photographic devices etc.,
the most important aspect of the strange events and encounters
is the person who witnesses and experiences these Unassimilated
Fantastic Observations. Some people have a religious response
(the Contactees old and new), others are incenced by the
violating aspects of there encounters. For some the encounters
are liberating transcendant spiritual experiences while others
are beset by a variety of debilitating problems ranging from
sleep disturbances, radiation sickness or even PTSD (Post
Traumatic Stress Disorder). "Something" is experienced by these
people and it can have life changing effects upon them.

What do we know about the people who witness these phenomena?
How can we balance our investigations into these events while
protecting the rights and well-being of the experiencers of such
bizarre phenomena?

How have the various researchers and experiencers grappled with
these phenomena over the years? What drives those who've not had
the experience to often voraciously pursue the answers to the
riddles posed by the phenomena? Why do others react with
ridicule and fear? These questions and much more will be
explored during both the Sunday Day Session and the Sunday Night
Session.

-=-=-

LIVE MUSIC

This year's conference will be unlike any other UFO event. Each
night there will be UFO researchers and a panel discussion just
like during the day but after dark there will be live ParaUFO
music, Flying Saucer Film Festival and Psychotronic
Entertainment.

Music is an amazingly mind altering technology. With simple
beats and rhythms a person's heart rate and brainwave activity
can be 'entrained' to a specific frequency. Music can change
your mood. It can put you on the edge of your seat in
suspenseful anticipation and it can exalt the very fabric of
your soul.

Some people have suggested that the creative artistic types
often seem to be experiencers of paranormal and contact
phenomena. Many  a musician has wrestled with the various issues
associated with UFOs, aliens and the paranormal. Austin has
played host to a number of such artists like Roky Erickson of
the 13th Floor Elevators and Jon Sanchez of the Flying Saucers.
There are tons of UFO songs out there in the ether.

Good examples of intuitive psychics and/or experiencers are
scheduled presenters Eugenia Macer-Story and Pamela Stonebrooke.
Besides giving their ufo lectures both Eugenia and Pamela will
be gracing us with their own musical stylings. Eugenia plays
guitar and rights songs for the numerous plays she has written.
She will be performing her own style of "Interdimensional Music"
Friday evening before that nights film festival. Then on Sunday
night Pamela Stonebrooke, an accomplished jazz singer, will belt
out several of her own tunes. (Keep an eye out for the next
Conference UpDate that will feature more information on both of
these multi-talented presenters.)

At the end of each night we will be featuring a taste of
Austin's own anomalous music community; first on Friday night
with veteran Austin rockers PONG then Saturday night with
ethereal feedback artists Experimental Aircraft and finally
Sunday night with garageband rockers SciBorg Sam & the
Automatons.

See what others are saying about these awesome Austin musicians:

      PONG!

"The name fits the retro-futuristic kind of mood we're in,"
explains guitarist and vocalist Gary Chester.

Joining Chester are Jason Craig (guitar, vocals), Lyman Hardy
(drums), Shane Shelton (keyboards, vocals), and Larry Strub
(bass, vocals). Craig and Shelton have spent time in local punk
rock bands Pocket FishRmen and Moist Fist, respectively. The
remaining three created one of Austin's most important post-punk
bands, the mighty modernist rock trio Ed Hall.

After releasing a handful of albums and touring the U.S. and
Europe, Ed Hall -- like their last label, Trance Syndicate --
called it quits in 1996. Personality clashes didn't break up the
band, but rather the familiar story of years of hard work with
less-than- desired rewards. Bassist Strub moved to Thailand for
a few years and taught English. Chester stayed in town, playing
with Moist Fist and fashioning Gold, the band that became Pong.

Checking out the band's rough mixes prove the point.
"Incapacitated" is a toe-tapping disco-rock jam that announces
"aliens have landed at the White House, California has fallen
into the ocean," that last word delivered in a fatalistic
falsetto drop. "Foot Foot" begins with Stonesy "whooo-hooo"
harmonies mixed with Warm Jets-era Eno vocals and an upbeat
rhythm. The flowing, flowering intro of "Bubble Jungle" morphs
into a cavernous shuffle groove, full of melodic stalactites and
weird vocal stalagmites. Pong songs are often like Dali
paintings, at once organized, inviting, and scary."

http://www.auschron.com/issues/dispatch/2000-03-03/music_feature3.html


"Dramatically switching gears, Austin's Pong sludges up on
stage. For those of you who were fans of Ed Hall, Pong is all
three members of this former seminal Austin band, along with two
other chaps adding keyboards and another guitar into the mix.
These veterans not only put on a stellar show, but have some
great material to go along with their antics."

http://www.splendidezine.com/features/sxsw2k/wednesday.html


     EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT
     http://www.experimentalaircraft.com/

"Another chance to lay back and drift easy as Austin, Texas'
EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT put the shimmer on and start glistening.
Ten tracks of blissy and sonic pop and rock combinations driven
by fuzzed guitars, lush female vocals, and an occasional
Moog/synth sound. Dynamic, jam-ready, and spaced." -Unknown

"Dreamy, narcotic, trance-inducing, space landscape of sound.
T.J. O'Leary, guitar and vocals; Rachel Staggs, guitar and
vocals; Mark Smith, bass; and Jason Ferguson, drums." -Unknown

"These Austin-nauts drift through the ether with beautifully
fuzzy guitars and lush girl vocals. The odd Moog and organ
slinks through as spaced-out hooks expand into Sonic Youth-style
jams. Shimmering moments of quiet provide valleys to match the
band's loudest peaks." -Williamette Week

"With neutron stars in their eyes and a new self-titled EP in
hand, Experimental Aircraft phases their brand of ballsy
bliss-rock into an Austin landscape woefully short on
shoegazerdom. References to drone masters Bailter Space might be
more apt, but when the band hits its stride, they're evocative
of the seemingly Precambrian days when My Bloody Valentine
walked the earth." - Michael Chamy, The Austin Chronicle

http://www.auschron.com/issues/dispatch/2000-11-24/music_recviews17.html


�Shoegazers and noise enthusiasts Experimental Aircraft weave
through Indie Rock signatures with alarming dexterity. From
Their Sonic Youth-inspired string noise and two-note dissonance
to Swervedriver�s hollow, NASA-approved screech (�Sci-Flyer�,
�Son of Mustang Ford�), and finally Lush/MBV, Doppler-effected
grooves, it�s obvious they�ve done their homework. While an
ability to mirror and medley some of �90s Alt-Rock�s greatest
moments deserves some respect, it�s Experimental Aircraft�s own
style and kinetic flair that remains most impressive.�
-Listen.com

"And lo, a great deal of drinking then took place at Opal's. A
whole lot. There were discussions of camping and Mississippi and
the feared "Zachsquatch". And over all of this debauchery spun
the gorgeous music of Experimental Aircraft, another Devil in
the Woods band. Their self-titled album is simultaneously a
tribute to the our shoegazing past and a hint at some sort of
blissed-out sonic future. Sure, there are traces of My Bloody
Valentine and Slowdive and Chapterhouse, (how couldn't there
be?), but Ex-Air have moved past the early 90's hip-hopped
percussion and focused more exclusively on guitars and what
distortion does to them. Lead singer Rachel's dreamy vocals and
lyrics remind you that music is safe when the world isn't.
Theirs is beautifully controlled noise that can pretty much
insulate you from whatever attacks. It hasn't left Squid's
discman since she left Austin. There's really never been a more
perfect end to an evening."

http://www.playinginfog.com/reviews/sxswmix.html

An Interview with Experimental Aircraft at AustinLive.Com
     http://www.austinlive.com/sxsw2000/interviews/experimentalaircraft.htm


     SCIBORG SAM & THE AUTOMATONS
     http://www.SciBorg-Gear.com/

"Alexander Uriostegui, the leader of SciBorg Sam & The
Automatons, is both musician and author. His book SciBorg Sam &
The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence is 'a journey of
nonstop action, adventure, mystery, chaos, corruption,
gratuitous violence, controversial issues, eroticism, and sick
humor.'

SciBorg Sam designs cyborg outfits for his band and is totally
into UFOs and Extraterrestrial Intelligences."

     Read an excerpt from the book:
http://www.sciborg-gear.com/journ.htm

-=-=-

ADVANCE REGISTRATION DISCOUNTS

     Advance Registration Before September 9th
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     (MUST SPECIFY WHICH SESSION 1 / 3 / 5 )
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     (MUST SPECIFY WHICH DAY Fri/Sat/Sun )
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SEND CHECKS OR MONEY ORDERS TO:

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Make checks payable to: National UFO Conference

OR PURCHASE ONLINE

     Thanks to Ticketweb and the Alamo Drafthouse Cinema
tickets to NUFOC 38 can now be purchased online with
valid credit card:
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alamodrafthouse&next=243289>

Seating is limited so please inquire immediately.







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                         Help Needed On 2 Old Cases

From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@email.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 15:49:57 +0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 10:59:08 -0400
Subject: Help Needed On 2 Old Cases

Dear List Members,

Could someone please check their files to see if they
have information about these interesting incidents?

Please send replies to caubeck@yahoo.com

Thank you,

Chris Aubeck


(1) I have two sources that are ambiguous about some small
details, and on one point contradict each other. Surprisingly,
neither Bougard nor Vallee mention this case.

Source A: Internet page dealing with miracles. My source's
source: "Mgr. de Bouille published an account of this apparition
and later received two briefs from Pope Leo XII."

"On December 17, 1826, after sunset, approximately three
thousand people gathered for a jubilee ceremony at Migne, in the
jurisdiction of Poitiers, France. All three thousand witnessed a
magnificent luminous object shining "brighter than the sun" and
"clearly not of this world" in the open sky above them. Records
of this event indicate that the heavenly object resembled a
cross, but by its description it hardly seems likely. The length
of the celestial "cross" measured forty feet and its
cross-member measured about four feet. The crowd was seized with
excitement, and a general feeling of brotherhood and unity
prevailed even long after the spectacle had vanished. Some wept,
some raised exclamations of wonder, some lifted their hands to
heaven, some studied and measured and scrutinized and others
simply took note. The reason for this phenomenon has never been
ascertained, as no one among the witnesses has ever offered a
single reasonable insight."

Source B: "Les OVNI du Pass," by Christiane Piens
(Bibliothque Marabout, Belgium 1977, p.86).

Notes:

Piens has "Migne-Auxances (near Poitiers)" for "Migne, in the
jurisdiction of Poitiers."

Piens has "80 feet" instead of "forty feet and its cross-member
measured about four feet."

Piens adds that 200 people provide a (written? oral?) testimony.

Piens' source: F. Largarde et le groupement Lumires dans la
nuit, "Mystrieuses soucoupes volantes," Albatros, 1973 p. 283.



(2) In 1767 a strange object was seen in Scotland. The exact
source is unknown to me but here we can reproduce a letter from
the most recent finder of the account, as published on the
research site Filer's Files (#34, August 28, 2000
www.filersfiles.com): Ilias Chdssochoidis writes, "As a doctoral
student in the Humanities [at Stanford University], I've been
spending much time reading 18th-century British periodicals. In
one of them I have found a report of an unexplained phenomenon.
I leave it to your judgment and experience to decide its merits
as a UFO sighting. Extract of a letter from Edinburgh, Sept. 8,
1767 follows:

"We hear from Perthsire, that an uncommon phaenomenon was
observed on the water of Isla, near Cupor Angus, preceded by a
thick dark smoke, which soon dispelled, and discovered a large
luminous body, like a house on fire, but presently after took a
form something pyramidal, and rolled forwards with impetuosity
till it came to the water of Erick, up which river it took its
direction, with great rapidity, and disappeared a little above
Blairgowrie. The effects were as extraordinary as the
appearance.

"In its passage, it carried a large cart many yards over a field
of grass; a man riding along the high road was carried from his
horse, and so stunned with the fall, as to remain senseless a
considerable time. It destroyed one half of a house, and left
the other behind, undermined and destroyed an arch of the new
bridge building at Blairgowrie, immediately after which it
disappeared.

"As few appearances of this kind ever were attended with like
consequences, various conjectures have been formed concerning
it."

This incident, in slightly varying versions, has been described
in three different books with no reference to the name of the
journal where it first appeared. I would like to know the title
and date of that journal. A French source has provided me with
the reference FSR vol. 21, no. 3-4, Nov. 1975, p. 54.
Unfortunately I do not have this issue. Could someone look it up
for me? Unless the above-quoted text differs from that published
in FSR all I require is the original bibliographical reference.










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   Aug > Aug 21

                        Rudolf Fenz - Time Traveler?

From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@email.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 15:49:57 +0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 11:02:01 -0400
Subject: Rudolf Fenz - Time Traveler?


Dear List members,

A story constantly repeated in Spanish publications concerns one
Rudolf Fenz, who is said to have been run over by a car in New
York in June 1950. Apparently he appeared out of nowhere. His
clothed seemed to belong to the 19th century, though he appeared
to be no more than 30 years old. When the police went through
the man�s pockets they found documents dated 1876 and antique
coins. They found his name on one of the documents but there was
no record of his existence in 1950 America. But they did find
one Rudolf Fenz Jr. in the phone book. Unfortunately this man, a
bank clerk, had died not long before, but his widow told the
investigator of the case (one Hubert V. Rihn of the Missing
Persons Investigation Dept.) that Fenz�s father had disappeared
mysteriously in the spring of 1876 when he went out to buy
tobacco.....

The story says that Rihn consulted a list of missing people
dated 1876. There was Rudolf Fenz�s name, 29 years old, last
seen dressed exactly as he was found on 5th Avenue in 1950 under
the wheels of an automobile.....

Sounds like an urban myth to me. And I�ve only ever seen it in
Spanish. Any bibliographic reference I can give would be
practically meaningless, but to name one: 'Los Enigmas
Pendientes' edited by Dr. Jimnez del Oso, Ediciones Uve, Madrid
1979, pp.75-77.

The last time I saw it mentioned in print was last week.

Can anyone give me any useful information?

Thank you,

Chris Aubeck










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                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:45:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 11:06:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Hatch


 >Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 21:47:52 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 21:59:34 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 17:47:39 +0100
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris

 >><snip>

 >>>And the AA symbols I'm talking about _are_ _not_ the publicised
 >>>beam symbols that every one who has seen the AA are familiar
 >>>with.

 >>>The symbols that match those seen in the FW pictures sit
 >>>along a beam on one of the tables seen in the _background_ of
 >>>the "debris footage" and as far as I'm aware were totally
 >>>un-noticed until I hit on them by chance, late in 1999, no one
 >>>else has come forward to claim prior knowledge of these to date.

 >>Now let me get it straight. The hoaxer would have had to
 >>publicly announce the existance of the little details he or she
 >>had noticed in the Fort Worth pictures and had decided to
 >>duplicate to make the fake debris look better?

 >>>A similar point can be made for the FW pictures, has anyone
 >>>before the RPIT claimed to have found symbols lurking within
 >>>the debris on Ramey's floor potted them?, and at a date before
 >>>the AA film surfaced in 1993?.

 >>The problem with your argument is that in order for it to be
 >>true, there would have to be no one on this Earth who is either
 >>as observant or as smart as you.

 >>You obvously think that that is extremely unlikely.

 >>This seems like it could be a fatal flaw in your hypothesis,
 >>Neil.

 >I think it is increasingly unlikely yes.

 >True it is possible somebody could have done some very in depth
 >research (in addition to all the other highly technical research
 >required to fabricate the AA if a hoax) if only the well known
 >UTA images alone were involved. But what I find compelling is
 >that the cross match of symbols includes the rare Bettmann image
 >and the symbol found in the Bettmann _only_ appears in the
 >Bettmann not any of the UTA images.

 >So what?, you might say.

 >I think it's true to say the UTA images have been public
 >knowledge, other than after their initial press publication, due
 >to their use in Roswell publications from 1980 onwards. But as
 >far as I'm aware none of the main stream works makes mention or
 >reproduces the Bettmann image, I have one work only in my
 >collection that uses the Bettmann, but that was published in
 >1995, after the AA appeared some 2 years before. (Ray Santilli
 >first saw the film in 1993, other people claim to have seen it
 >in the 60's)

 >I believe it was Kevin Randle who traced this image but I'm
 >unaware just when and if he has ever used it in reproduction in
 >any of his works, he hasn't in the ones I have, perhaps he can
 >comment on this, I'd be interested to know.

 >So if our hoaxers put together the AA with hidden FW pic details
 >in the 80's as you suggest, are they going to re-invent the
 >wheel and do a national archive picture search for the Fort
 >Worth images or the sensible thing and pinch other peoples
 >published research and then hit the UTA for a set of prints?. If
 >I were doing it I would go with the flow and assume the likes of
 >Randle, Schmitt, Friedman Beliner and Moore had done their
 >homework, why go hunting for more images when you know the UTA
 >had 4 originals??.

 >Another problem are those witnesses who claim to have seen the
 >AA film back in the 60's and 70's before even the UTA prints
 >were known about.

 >>>>I wonder how Marcel got 777,500 square feet of anything in the
 >>>>trunk of his little old car?

 >>>Ah, but Cavitt had a "carry-all", see later.

 >>See above..

 >><snip>

 >>>>What makes 10% coverage necessary to notice some shiny debris
 >>>>laying out on the desert? There is a mighty big assumption
 >>>>being made here.

 >>>>Did Brazel ever say that the area was covered to this density?

 >>>Nope, but if Tommy Tyree, the ranch hand who worked with Mack shortly
 >>>after the event is to be believed, the density was such as to
 >>>trouble Mack's sheep to the extent they wouldn't cross the debris
 >>>field, and he had to drive them around it.

 >>You've interviewed the sheep, Neil, and they agree that it was
 >>10% coverage?

 >>>Sorry Bob you've lost me here, the numbers used are _directly_
 >>>from witness testimony

 >>1947 witness testimony?

 >Which?

 >Or are you thinking about Cavitt's description?.

 >>>and pictures?, am I to assume you are
 >>>referring to JBJ's FW pics (?so you agree the debris shown _is_
 >>>some of that from Roswell? or do you know of some others?)

 >>Yes.

 >Which?

 >>>which according to Jesse Marcel only show a small portion of
 >>>what was transported to FWAAF aboard that B29's flight and
 >>>that debris flight only held what he and Cavitt had recovered
 >>>from the debris field. Most of the debris was still left behind
 >>>out there on the ranch.

 >>What is the date and citation for this 1947 quotation, please.

 >><snip>

 >>>so how come they filled the carryall and Marcel's Buick yet
 >>>still left the larger part of the debris out there?.

 >>Please provide a citation and date for the eyewitness testimony
 >>that they filled the carryall and Buick with debris, yet still
 >>left most behind?

 >Jesse Marcel "The Roswell Incident" my copy P69, interviewed in
 >1979.

 >"We collected all the debris we could handle. When we had filled
 >the Carry-all, I began to fill the trunk and back seat of the
 >Buick."

 >And I guess you'll class it as hearsay but..

 >Jesse Marcel Jnr page 73 same book.

 >"He had a 1942 Buick and a Carry-all trailer, and both were
 >loaded with this material which was only a small fraction of the
 >total material."


Hello guys:

I'm sorry I cannot cite chapter and verse, I think the following
came from one of Vallee's books.

Some fellow in Europe concocted a fantastic tale, possibly an
abduction or whatever, with alien contact wherein the aliens
divulged that they had stolen an electrical meter from some
house... presumably to see how it worked.

His story was blown .. he tripped himself up in some other way,
and finally confessed the whole matter if I recall correctly.

Before this rude exposure, somebody looked up police records for
the town in question, and (gasp!) indeed an electrical meter
mysteriously vanished from a house there!

It turned out that the perp had looked up the same records, and
carefully woven those unlikely facts into his own fantasia,
clearly in the hope that someone would find the missing meter
records independently!

That worked like a charm, for a while at least.

The Meter-Man / contactee had a far less elaborate and expensive
agenda than any Ray Santilli. All he had to do was dig thru some
dusty police records.

For all I know he stole the meter himself in an unrelated prank
years earlier. Ever heard of salting the mine? I'll bet the
Southwest is full of 55 gallon oil fields.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

PS: Please don't hold me to precise details. This is completely
from fuzzy memory [burp!] but I believe I have the general gist
of it.









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   Aug > Aug 21

                        UFO Cult Cloning Lab A Fraud

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 06:33:46 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 11:07:26 -0400
Subject: UFO Cult Cloning Lab A Fraud


Someone was kind enough to pass this along to me:

http://www.drudgereport.com/dna.htm

The Rael cult is also reported to be under investigation by a
federal grand jury for fraud.  Maybe if the Raelians step it up,
they can make multiple clones of themselves and send their
clones to jail in their place...


Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM







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                           THE WATCHDOG - 08-21-01

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:52:04 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 11:08:37 -0400
Subject: THE WATCHDOG - 08-21-01


UFOWATCHDOG.COM
"Don't Trip On Your Open Mind"
http://www.ufowatchdog.com

***NEWS***

~ Drudge Report: UFO Cult Cloning Lab Is A Fraud
~ George Filer Keeps Watching The Skies
~ Disease Brings Poor Crop Of Circles
~ Cheney UFO Disclosure Promise Being Pursued
~ Rendlesham UFO Case - MOD Files Now Online
~ Lexington, Kentucky UFO Video - Is It A UFO
~ Amazing Crop Circle - Over 400 Circles In A Single Formation









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   Aug > Aug 21

              Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Cox

From: Sheree Cox <CoxSheree@netscape.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 10:05:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 11:11:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Cox


 >Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:43:56 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure


I agree with John Velez. A Hunger Strike can be very dangerous.
Surely there's better and safer ways to protest. Does George
Bush really care?


Sheree Cox












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                                 List Hiatus

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 00:00:04 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 00:00:04 -0400
Subject: List Hiatus




Dear Reader,

UFO UpDates is off-line until AM Thursday August 30th, 2001 - a
short, but needed vacation.....


Errol Bruce-Knapp
Moderator





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                              List Back On-line

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:34:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:34:56 -0400
Subject: List Back On-line





From: Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>


Gentle Reader,

Relaxed, refreshed and feeling fine - "That's the way... uh huh,
uh huh, I like it - uh huh, uh huh!"

A glorious week at a family cottage on a bay in the Muskokas -
the kind of place you see in photographs of 'Canada' - a
paradise. We sat, endlessly patient, waiting to see 'something'
in the skies, but short of loons, hummingbirds, floatplanes and
the odd satellite - nothing unidentifiable. Damn!

The mail will flow shortly. New subscribers should note that the
List was not functioning for the past week, consequently
there'll be an abnormal amount of traffic in the next few
hours.....


ebk









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             US Base's Report Of UFO Crash 'Had MoD In A Panic'

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:36:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:36:07 -0400
Subject: US Base's Report Of UFO Crash 'Had MoD In A Panic'




From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

Source: The Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,543150,00.html

US Base's Report Of UFO Crash 'Had MoD In A Panic'


Richard Norton-Taylor
Tuesday August 28, 2001
The Guardian

A report by the deputy commander of a US nuclear base in East
Anglia of an unidentified flying object provoked panic in the
Ministry of Defence, newly-released documents have revealed.

In what was claimed to be Britain's first UFO landing, Lieutenant
Colonel Charles Halt, commander of the US Bentwaters base
near Woodbridge in Suffolk, reported that two of his security
patrolmen had seen "unusual lights" early in the morning of
December 27, 1980.

Thinking that an aircraft had crashed, they reported seeing "a
strange glowing object in the Rendlesham forest". The object
was described as being "metallic in appearance and triangular in
shape".

It had a "pulsing red light on top and bank of blue lights
underneath".

Animals on a nearby farm were said to have gone into a "
frenzy". The following day three depressions were found as well
as traces of radiation, Col Halt reported.

His report was released under the US freedom of information act
two years later. What has not been disclosed until now is the
MoD's response to it.

British papers on the incident have been discovered by David
Clarke, a researcher at Sheffield University who is writing a book
on UFOs.

The Halt report was sent to the MoD with a covering letter by
Squadron Leader Donald Moreland, an RAF liaison officer, who
referred to "some mysterious sightings".

The ministry's scientists said they could offer "no explanation for
the phenomena", or the radiation. Radar tapes from the night in
question were impounded from nearby RAF bases to see if there
was any evidence that British airspace had been invaded.

The papers make clear the MoD was concerned more about
protecting the base from unwelcome publicity than about the
alleged UFO sightings.

The ministry was worried about rumours being spread
suggesting that the "alien landing" was a clever cover story for
an accident involving nuclear weapons, the crash of a prototype
Stealth aircraft, or even the secret recovery of part of a Soviet
satellite.

It was also worried that anti-nuclear campaigners would be
alerted to the presence of nuclear bombs at Bentwaters.

Yet it had something else to hide. Five documents are being
withheld on the grounds that they contain confidential briefings
to ministers, relate to national security, or affect Britain's
relations with the US.

Dr Clarke, of Sheffeld University's centre for English cultural
tradition, and whose book is due to be published by Piatkus
next year, has asked the MoD to release them.

He said: "Here we had USAF servicemen at a highly sensitive
Nato base chasing UFOs around a forest in the middle of the
night."

He added: "The files raise questions about how easily our
defences could be fooled."







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                    Russian Scientists See Flying Saucers

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:36:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:36:26 -0400
Subject: Russian Scientists See Flying Saucers




From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

Source: Asia Times

http://atimes.com/c-asia/CH29Ag01.html


August 29, 2001


Central Asia/Russia

Russian Scientists See Flying Saucers
By Sergei Blagov

MOSCOW - A group of Russian scientists has come up with
sensational claims of fundamental discoveries. However, their
assertions provide more questions than answers about the
current, deplorable state of Russian science.

The group, headed by Professor Valerian Sobolev, claims "seven
major discoveries". One of these relates to a new
electrochemical process, which allows production of new,
previously unknown types of materials from silicon. Sobolev, who
heads the Material Technology Research Center in Volgograd,
Central Russia, claims that his new materials may contain
electromagnetic impulses and could therefore become a source of
virtually free electric energy.

Sobolev says that his know-how may help to build new types of
engineless flying machines evocative of flying saucers. He and
his team have sent a letter informing Russian President Valdimir
Putin of their "discoveries" - casually pointing out that
commercialization of their know-how would require some US$2
million.

The Russian scientists say they can build generators of free
electric energy on a commercial basis within 18 months. However,
established researchers remain skeptical. "They are yet to show
us any concrete proof," said prominent physicist Sergei Kapitsa.
The talk about new materials and sources of energy is either "an
honest mistake or an intentional deception", he added.

Large sections of the Russian media have not expressed any
doubts over Sobolev's claims. For instance, the official RIA
news agency, which also organized a media briefing for Sobolev
earlier this month, presented his assertions as fact and omitted
Kapitsa's and other critical remarks.

The former Soviet Union used to pride itself on its scientific
achievements, notably advances in natural sciences, and the
country had a system of finding and encouraging prodigies to
become scientists. These days, however, Russian physicists and
mathematicians are complaining that fewer talented young people
are willing to embrace scientific pursuits and prefer, instead,
to work abroad or in business.

Government funding for fundamental research programs in Russia
has plummeted more than 12-fold since 1991, according to Yuri
Osipov, chairman of the Russian Academy of Sciences. During the
same period, Osipov added, the number of scientific workers
dropped to 1 million from 3 million. More than half of the
nation's scientists live in Moscow or areas adjacent to the
city, yet the capital's high cost of living serves as an
additional incentive to abandon research.

Once the country's scientific elite, associated with the Russian
Academy of Science, known by its Russian acronym RAN, scientists
now must contend with unpaid wages and falling prestige. Within
the past decade, RAN has seen nearly 100,000 scientists leave
for the lucrative private sector.

Russian officials suggest various ways to support scientific
research. Earlier this month, Russia's Education Minister
Vladimir Filippov suggested the merger of research centers with
money-making colleges and universities. However, it remains to
be seen whether Russian scientists would do well in the
education sector. As recently as the 1970s, more than two-thirds
of Russian students pursued engineering, natural sciences and
medicine, but enrolment fell, along with prestige, after the end
of the Cold War.

Peter the Great launched the RAN nearly three centuries ago by
recruiting academics from Europe. Now, according to official
statistics, some 20,000 Russian scientists work abroad. Many of
them have taken with them the results of decades of collective
work that often had yet to be patented. Russia thus is losing
potential for much-needed earnings.

As younger scientists join the brain drain, the average age of
remaining holders of doctoral degree has risen to 60 years,
Osipov said. He urged a review of current legislation, which
causes over-taxation of private grants to fund fundamental
research. Russia's state budget allocates hardly enough to
ensure the mere subsistence of state-employed scientists. Not
surprisingly, many researchers survive relying on grants from
the International Science Foundation of US billionaire George
Soros, as well as smaller grants from the Russian Fund for Basic
Research.

Experts say that Russia - both the private and state sectors -
now invests less than $200 million per year to commercialize
high-tech know-how, including military technologies. This is a
far from adequate figure for a country with thousands of
research centers and high-tech enterprises.

However, skeptics argue that Russia's perceived "great science"
was not based in reality, as scientific achievements were used
for Cold War aims such as making atomic bombs, and other
weapons. By contrast, the general population saw no benefits.
Scientists counter that their achievements could be used for
more practical goals.

A few scientists have managed to take care of themselves -
notably Russia's controversial billionaire Boris Berezovsky, who
worked as a mathematician in the Soviet era. But his former
colleagues argue Berezovsky's notorious wealth, acquired "via a
variety of murky means", is not the kind of achievement for
which Russian science should pride itself.

Russian science still has considerable potential, as technology
transfer, and commercialization of intellectual property could
bring Russia up to $1 billion per year, according to official
estimates. These would-be huge revenues remain somewhat of a
dream, however.

It remains to be seen whether Sobolev's claims prove to be true
or a sheer hoax. If they turn out to be fraudulent, however,
this would further illustrate the desperate measures that
Russian scientists must embrace to attract publicity and
funding.

(Inter Press Service)

�2001 Asia Times Online Co., Ltd.

Building B - 5th Floor,
102/1 Phra Arthit Road,
Chanasangkhram,
Bangkok 10200,
Thailand







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              Hypnosis May Give False Confidence To Inaccurate

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:36:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:36:38 -0400
Subject: Hypnosis May Give False Confidence To Inaccurate




From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

Source: Ohio State University

http://www.osu.edu/researchnews/archive/hypnomem.htm

Hypnosis May Give False Confidence To Inaccurate Memories
By Jeff Grabmeier

Grabmeier.1@osu.edu

Ohio State University

SAN FRANCISCO - A new study suggests that hypnosis doesn't help
people recall events more accurately - but it does tend to make
people more confident of their inaccurate memories.

Researchers asked college students, including some who were
under hypnosis, to give the dates of 20 national and
international news events from the past 11 years.

The bottom line is that memories recovered through hypnosis, or
any other technique, need to be corroborated through other means
before they are accepted as true.

Those who were hypnotized were no more accurate than others in
choosing the correct dates. However, those who were hypnotized
were more reluctant to change their answers when they were told
they might be wrong.

The results suggest that people may have too much faith that
hypnosis can help them accurately recover lost memories, said
<http://www.psy.ohio-state.edu/homepage.asp?p=1117 Joseph Green,
co-author of the study and associate professor of
<http://www.psy.ohio-state.edu/ psychology at Ohio State
University's Lima campus.

"Clearly, myths and misconceptions about hypnosis abound," Green
said. "While hypnosis does not enhance the reliability of
memory, there is some evidence that hypnosis leads to increased
confidence in memories."

These results support earlier survey research co-authored by
Green that found nearly nine of ten people in four countries
believe that hypnosis can help someone remember something that
they could not remember otherwise.

Green conducted the latest study with Steven Jay Lynn of the
State University of New York at Binghamton. They presented their
results Aug. 26 in San Francisco at the annual meeting of the
<http://www.apa.org/American Psychological Association.

The study involved 96 college students who were asked to give
their best estimate of the day, month and year that various
events occurred. These included the date the Gulf War began, the
day a bomb exploded in Atlanta during the Olympics and the date
that Kurt Cobain of the rock band Nirvana committed suicide.

About half the students were hypnotized before performing the
task, while the other half performed a progressive muscle
relaxation exercise.

In addition to giving dates, the students were asked to rate how
confident they were in the estimates they gave. Afterwards, the
booklets with the date estimates were collected. After 20
minutes, the students were told the booklets had been scored to
determine if their dates were within three months of the actual
date. All participants were told that if they had a red star on
the back of the booklet, at least one, but maybe more of the
dates were inaccurate. In fact, though, the researchers had put
red stars on all the booklets. The students were then given 10
minutes to review and change any of their previous estimates and
give new ratings of how confident they were in their date
estimates.

Results showed that the students who were hypnotized were no
more accurate than those in the relaxation group. On some of the
questions, none of the students were within three months of the
correct date. At best, 62.5 percent were within three months of
the correct date of an event.

In their ratings, the students who were hypnotized were no more
confident in their date estimates than were the other students,
Green said. However, participants who were hypnotized were less
likely to change their estimates when told some were wrong.

Participants in the hypnosis group changed only 16.9 percent of
their answers, compared to the other group, who changed 24.6
percent of their answers.

The fact that students under hypnosis said they were no more
confident in their answers than did others, but were still less
likely to change their answers, suggests the belief in the power
of hypnosis to improve memory operates outside of conscious
awareness.

"Those who were hypnotized tell you they are not confident in
their answers, but their behavior - the reluctance to change
their answers - suggests they must be more confident in their
answers," Green said.

The reason may be the myths that surround hypnosis, he said.
"It's widely believed that hypnosis somehow acts as a truth
serum, that it unlocks memory and permits people to perform
mental operations that they otherwise couldn't do," Green said.

These myths occur worldwide, according to research Green helped
conduct. In a survey of 280 students in Australia, Germany, Iran
and the United States, 88 percent said hypnosis can help people
remember something they couldn't otherwise remember. There were
no significant differences in this belief between countries.

Green said the results of the new study don't mean that hypnosis
has no value. Any kind of technique used to retrieve memories -
including the use of diaries or drugs - will produce inaccurate
memories. However, the difference is that people tend to have
more faith in hypnosis than they do in other memory techniques.

"While it may be true that hypnosis is no worse than other
memory retrieval techniques in terms of accuracy, the downfall
is that people may be more confident in memories they generate
while under hypnosis," Green said. "And that's because of the
belief that hypnosis is a magical truth serum."

The bottom line is that memories recovered through hypnosis, or
any other technique, need to be corroborated through other means
before they are accepted as true, he said.

Contact: Joseph Green 419 221-1641, ext. 8278 Green.301@osu.edu

http://www.osu.edu/researchnews/archive/hypnomem.htm






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   Aug > Aug 30

                    Alien Seekers Damage Stone Age Mound

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:36:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:36:58 -0400
Subject: Alien Seekers Damage Stone Age Mound




From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

Source: BBC News

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1511000/1511448.stm

Tuesday, 28 August, 2001, 09:14 GMT 10:14 UK
Alien Seekers Damage Stone Age Mound

Silbury Hill: Sacred place or waste tip Trespassing UFO hunters
have climbed into Silbury Hill in Wiltshire, UK, damaging the
biggest man-made Neolithic mound in Europe.

English Heritage closed the 4,000-year-old mound to the public
after an 18th Century mining shaft opened up in the summit in
May last year.

The alien hunters broke into the site under cover of darkness
soon after the hole was discovered. Evidence of the trespass has
only come to light now, after a video of the foray was included
in a documentary film.

After tunnelling under the temporary roof installed by English
Heritage, two climbers abseiled into the shaft, while a third
videoed the stunt. They repeated the climb on a rainy winter
night six months later.

Archaeologist Mike Pitts says the climbers dislodged the soft
clay sides of the unstable shaft, possibly damaging vital
archaeological clues.

"They were extremely lucky to come out again alive. Between
their two visits there was a major collapse, which they joked
about in the video of their December visit."

Footage of the illicit descent has since been incorporated into
a video by Dutch documentary makers Janet Ossebaard and Bert
Janssen, who have attempted to sell it on the tourist circuit in
nearby Avebury.

Mr Pitts says that not only have shopkeepers refused to stock
the video, the crop circle enthusiasts who flock to Wiltshire
every summer have almost universally condemned the stunt.

English Heritage itself has come under fire for not doing enough
to protect the site.

"This video depicts the criminal trespass of an ancient
monument. So how these people can imagine that they can sell it
without being criticised is impossible to believe," says Mr
Pitts.

Secrets of the mound

As repairs to the hill get under way, English Heritage is
carrying out a seismic study to create a 3D computer image of
what lies inside.

It is the latest attempt to unlock the secrets of the hill,
which forms part of the ancient landscape surrounding Avebury
stone circle and nearby Stonehenge.

Theories abound as to why it was built. Many believe it was a
sacred monument, while others think it may have been a Stone Age
waste tip.

But the trespassers - thought to be local crop circle
enthusiasts - apparently believe that Silbury Hill is a power
station for passing alien craft.

It is a view shared by the Dutch documentary makers, who posted
an account of the stunt - and assorted UFO sightings near
Silbury Hill - on their website.

Included is a photo of a burn mark on a mobile phone carried by
one of the climbers, apparently caused by intense heat on his
climb up the mound - evidence, they infer, of the power
emanating from the hill.

Mr Pitts is sceptical: "I suggest that they may have jumped on
the phone while clambering about in the
dark."







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                 SETI Signal Crunching Yields Little So Far

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:37:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:37:13 -0400
Subject: SETI Signal Crunching Yields Little So Far




From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>


SETI@home: Signal Crunching Yields Little So Far

By Leonard David
Senior Space Writer
posted: 07:00 am ET
27 August 2001



MOUNTAIN VIEW, CALIFORNIA -- More than a dozen candidate signals
have been snagged by a global network of volunteers in a search
for extraterrestrial intelligence called SETI@home. But one by
one, the prospective SETI hits have been downgraded to misses
and tagged as radio interference.

The SETI@home project has been under way since May 1999. Using
data collected by the world�s largest radio telescope in
Arecibo, Puerto Rico, some 3 million volunteers around the globe
have attempted to tease out from the telescope�s star sweeping
any signs of radio chatter eking from distant, inhabited worlds.

SETI@home is separate from the SETI Institute, which is engaged
in several scientific and educational projects designed to
search for extraterrestrial intelligence in the Universe.
SPACE.com has a partnership with the SETI Institute.

Information crunching

SETI@home is based on the use of small personal computers, all
working simultaneously to form the world�s largest
supercomputer, said Dan Werthimer, chief scientist for the
effort at the University of California, Berkeley. "It�s better
than any supercomputer at any of our laboratories on the
planet," he told SPACE.com.

Volunteers donate time on their computers, making use of special
software to analyze data received over the Internet, and then
report back the fruits of information crunching to the UC
Berkeley SETI@home team.

"The volunteers donate a thousand years of computing time every
day. So far, they�ve donated 700 thousand years," Werthimer
said.

Candidate signals

In combing through the data, analysts eliminate signals that are
caused by radio frequency interference, computer errors, and to
keep an eye out for signals that repeat.

The result of that weeding through of data produced 17
extraterrestrial candidate signals -- those that show a pattern
indicative of intelligence in the natural buzz and crackle of
deep space.

"The most interesting signals are things that we�ve seen two or
more times. We actually have a human being looking at the data,
trying to figure our what are these repeating signals and why do
we see them again," Werthimer said.

So far, however, all the candidate signals have turned out to be
radio frequency interference. The patterns were found to be
associated with the same radio frequency.


"We know they are radio pollution because when the telescope is
pointed to other places, we see them as well," Werthimer said.
"The pollution is coming in from the side of the telescope."


Corruption

Werthimer said that radio pollution is the "big bugaboo" in
SETI. "It�s getting harder and harder to do SETI as more of
the radio bands are corrupted by satellites, television
transmitters and cell phones. Some radio bands are just so
polluted we can�t search through those bands anymore."

At the moment, while SETI@home has been highly
successful in attracting public involvement, none of the data
crunching has yielded evidence for any extraterrestrial
civilization.

"Nothing is popping out at us. But we�re going to keep
digging. And the further you dig down, the better chance you
have of finding a signal ... if it�s there," Werthimer said.

Despite the Universe still holding tight the true whereabouts of
any ET, there is some good news. The technology for
surveying all possible radio frequency bands of interest is
getting better and better.

"Right now, I would say that Earthlings are just getting into
the game," Werthimer said. "We need another factor of a
million or a billion in capabilities before we can do a thorough
search. But at the rate that technology is growing, we don�t
have to wait long. It�s only 20 or 30 years away."

Deaf ear to the Universe?

Given the response to SETI@home, officials running the
project are now scoping out SETI@home II.

The upgrade program means that radio band coverage at
Arecibo may be increased by adding another recorder
system. An additional recording system might also be utilized
at a radio telescope in the southern hemisphere, opening up
an entirely different part of the sky to SETI scientists.

Even with these augmentations, the search could still be
putting a deaf ear to the Universe.

"Maybe we�re barking up the wrong tree ... and there�s some
better technology that we don�t know about. Or, perhaps,
we�ve got to wait 500 years for the next revolution in physics,"
Werthimer said.

"But that�s like telling Christopher Columbus: Don�t bother
sailing the seas ... you�ll have airplanes and that�ll make your
job much easier, Werthimer said. "The point is, you�ve got to
start somewhere."









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   Aug > Aug 30

                        Chines Had Crop Circles First

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:37:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:37:38 -0400
Subject: Chines Had Crop Circles First



From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

Source: The Independant


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia_china/story.jsp?story=90696

By Calum McLeod in Urumqi, Xinjiang

26 August 2001

Is it a teardrop, a beard, the sun or the moon? And why do alien
visitors to Earth leave these mysterious signs in our fields?
Some answers may lie in the wilds of north-west China. There is
no Chinese equivalent for "croppies" yet, but the global army of
crop-circle enthusiasts just gained a key convert the their
cause, virgin lands ripe for speculation, and a great leap
backwards into antiquity.

Close to the Mongolian border, a Chinese explorer has discovered
a series of stone circles and other shapes he claims are the
2,500-year-old prototypes of crop patterns found in recent years
everywhere from Wiltshire to Western Australia. More than 70
countries worldwide, embracing each continent, have reported
ever more bizarre examples appearing in corn and wheat fields,
or grass, flowerbeds and even snow.

China was among the last major nations to resist a phenomenon so
intriguing it has spawned its own science � cereology � and
survived the pranks of confessed circle-makers. In the past
year, Chinese man of mystery Zhang Hui, research fellow at the
Xinjiang Museum in Urumqi, has harvested more than 20 patterns
that appear to match examples found in other countries, but may
pre-date them by up to 3,000 years. While croppies in the West
debate which circles are genuine mysteries and which the
"agrarian graffiti" of hoaxers, the Chinese finds are clearly
man-made.

"The primitive peoples who lived there were inspired by the crop
circles they saw," said Zhang, whose quest for the truth has
taken him to the farthest reaches of China's Xinjiang Uyghur
Autonomous Region, an expanse of Central Asian desert, mountain
and grassland seven times larger than the UK. "They thought the
circles were a way of communicating with the gods, and so placed
rocks in the shape of the circles."

Zhang found several circles in the grasslands of Qinghe county
beside the Sino-Mongolian border, ranging from simple circles to
more elaborate teardrop and other shapes. Bemused by their
geometrical sophistication, he went to Beijing to consult
Chinese translations of reference works by British croppies. "I
was amazed by the similarities," he said. "Both sets show
characteristics of modern, industrial civilisations, as you
would need modern instruments to make such perfect circles, yet
these could be the oldest records of crop circles world-wide.
They show that the phenomenon is much older than people
thought."

Zhang published his findings in the latest edition of a Chinese
magazine, Western, which is devoted not to gunslingers but the
vast and under-populated provinces of west China. The region is
home to many non-Chinese ethnic minorities, including most of
China's Muslims. Several of Zhang's stone patterns surround vast
piles of stones gathered to commemorate not ancient Chinese but
warrior nomads known as the Scythians, an Indo-Iranian people
with Caucasian features.

The Scythian connection will fuel fevered croppie speculation,
since their conquests were so extensive that Western historians
have identified cultural interaction with the ancient Celts,
whose religious sites have been among the leading locations for
crop circles. Zhang suggests links to places such as Stonehenge,
for luminaries such as John Haddington of the UK's Centre of
Crop Circle Studies have noted that circles often appear close
to the sacred sites of Celts, Australian Aborigines and Native
Americans. Based in a region at the heart of the old Silk Road,
Zhang is keen to explore these tenuous links between East and
West.

The first publicly recorded crop circle. in 1678 in
Stirlingshire, Scotland, came to be known as the "Devil's
Circle". Zhang noted a similar reaction to a pattern in Qinghe,
encircling a stone pile and tombstone with a deer engraving.
"The nomads call it the 'magic circle', and believe whoever
dares to touch the tombstone will offend the gods and be
punished." He himself would have been punished if he had pursued
such research two decades ago. For years, Chairman Mao waged war
on "superstitious" beliefs he saw holding back his attempts to
modernise China. "During the Cultural Revolution, a group of Red
Guards in north-east China saw a crop circle appear in a field
in a very short time," Zhang recalled from a rare eyewitness
account of a formation actually in progress, published much
later. "They were stunned, but at the time, nobody was allowed
to believe in such 'superstition'."

In these more liberal times, 30-year-old Zhang has spent six
years specialising in China's "mysterious culture". Other fans
of the unexplained run China's booming UFO Society, with
regional meetings and a newsletter of regular sightings. So does
Zhang agree with some Western croppies that extra-terrestrial
powers are creating these fields of dreams, and not bored border
guards, wind vortexes, electromagnetic fields, or even hedgehogs
as one theory goes?

"It's too early too say for sure," was his sensible reply, "but
there is a definite connection with the cosmos. It could be a
supernatural force, or even an alien civilisation." The truth is
still out there.






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   Aug > Aug 30

                   Mystery Around Noise, Lights Continues

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:38:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:38:13 -0400
Subject: Mystery Around Noise, Lights Continues




From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

Source: The Sun Journal, Leiston, Maine

http://www.sunjournal.com/story.asp?slg=082501mystery

08-25-01

Mystery Around Noise, Lights Continues

By Mark LaFlamme

Staff Writer


The buzz over Wednesday night�s sky phenomenon intensified
Friday as more and more people reported their experiences.
Accounts of strange, loud noises and mysterious lights in the
sky were coming from a wider area.

And as the mystery gained more attention, the number of theories
grew. An astronomer in Greene suggested meteor fragments burning
up in the atmosphere were the likely cause. Another Greene man
was convinced the military was at the root of the phenomenon.
And two men, including one who used to work on military craft,
spotted jet fighters in the sky the night of the event.

There also were plenty of people who said they had not ruled out
the possibility of the presence of beings from another planet.

As the range of reports of the event widened, folks from Wayne
and Litchfield contacted the newspaper to relate their
experiences. Those accounts were consistent with those from all
over Androscoggin County � men and women, young and old told of
a roar from the sky so loud it rattled their homes. Some
reported bright flares of light that made the night look like
daytime. Some were curious, many afraid.

"It sounded like it was right over my house, and it was loud,"
said 35-year-old Karen Kenbrous, who lives in East Auburn. "I
didn�t go outside. I was nervous. I was expecting something to
explode."

A doctor who lives in Auburn reported his experience with the
phenomenon in a few terse but ominous sentences.

"That sound made me consider the end of the world," said John
Comis. "I am not glad I heard it. But I never would have
believed in it had I not."

People were openly talking about UFOs and motherships. Some were
joking, some not. Others scoffed. And some solid theories were
emerging.

"I believe that your observers were treated to an especially
fine display of some tardy Perseid meteors," said John Neal, an
amateur astronomer in Greene.

The Perseid meteor shower peaked the weekend of Aug. 11 and 12.
Neal explained that bolides � extremely bright meteors leftover
from that shower � may be the culprits responsible for
Wednesday�s display.

"These fireballs or bolides are in fact extremely common," Neal
said. "But most of them occur over the oceans, and many occur
during daylight hours and so are not usually seen."

The bolides "can be isolated phenomena or can occur when the
earth�s orbit crosses the orbit of a comet," Neal said. "And it
is in fact this latter circumstance which I believe is the cause
of the recent unexplained lights and noises in the sky."

Others suspect military officials are simply not talking about
aircraft they had in the sky Wednesday night.

"A friend of mine down the road, he saw it. It was a KC135 cargo
jet," said Arthur Gagne, who lives in Greene. "He said it went
right over the trees."

The jet may have been revving its engines as it prepared to
land, Gagne said. And he suggested the military would not likely
admit it had some massive aircraft flying so low.

Maurice Gauthier of Greene used to work on F-106 jet fighters in
the U.S. Air Force. On Wednesday night, he said, several
fighters flew over Sabattus, headed toward Greene.

"If they�re in stealth mode, they probably didn�t even show up
on the radar," Gauthier said.

He described a maneuver in which the jet engine�s thrust and an
"after burner" propels the craft at amazing speeds, fire blazing
from the rear of the plane.

"You get a rumble, and it lights up quite a bit," Gauthier said.

He agreed with Gagne that military officials might not readily
admit to having jets in the area even though they were asked
after Wednesday night�s reports. On Thursday military officials
in Maine said they had no aircraft in the area at the time of
the reports, about 10:30 p.m. Wednesday.

A report from Chris Jordan, who lives in a remote area of
Turner, backs up Gauthier�s account. He said at about that time,
his house was shaken. When he went outside, he saw two fighter
jets flying side by side.

"They were humming right along," Jordan said. "They turned, they
crossed paths and then they flew off in different directions."

In spite of those accounts, suggestions of other world visitors
persisted among some on Friday.

Stephanie Kelley-Romano, a professor at Bates College in
Lewiston, has interviewed people who claim to have been abducted
by aliens. She is teaching a course on it. She has been to
Roswell, N.M., the site of the notorious Area 51, a military
base where many believe an alien spacecraft landed decades ago.
And she believes there is something to reports of
extraterrestrial craft visiting the planet.

"It�s always worth keeping an open mind," she said.

But Kelley-Romano is not convinced what dozens of people saw
Wednesday night was necessarily a visitor from another world.

"What was reported doesn�t necessarily appear to be the result
of something intelligent. It didn�t have deliberate movement,"
she said. "What would excite me is a light that will go left or
right and then back again."

In East Auburn, Keneborus� daughter was outside Friday looking
for meteor fragments, or anything that might be left behind by
whatever caused the sensation. Keneborus herself was not
discounting beings from another planet. But she was expecting a
more earthly explanation.

"Well, you know that�s always a possibility. I�m open minded,"
she said. "But if I had to pick a side of that fence, I�d say it
was something other than extraterrestrial. Either way, the
people who heard it will never forget it. There�s no closure."

mlaflamme@sunjournal.com







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             Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 11:09:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:43:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Velez


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 20 Aug 2001 14:51:01 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:55:08 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>Wow!

 >>It simply amazes me how; what was originally a simple expression
 >>of concern for the well being of a fellow human being, has been
 >>twisted into this maelstrom of contentious debate.

 >Have you written a letter to her Congress woman telling her that
 >after 30 days Lara is in serious trouble as you believe, and
 >pleading with her to do what she can while time remains. Posting
 >on this board does nothing to help Lara.

No Grant, I chose to speak with Lara directly. Her congressman
is not engaged in a health risking extended fast, Lara is. I
prefer going to the source. (If that's ok with you.)

And,...

"Posting to this board" is what facilitated that contact. Lara
responded immediately to my post and we both had an opportunity
to speak with each other 'live' on Strange Days Indeed this past
Saturday night. I have also communicated with her privately
concerning securing the services of a competent physician to
monitor her during the fast. I noticed in a posting yesterday
that she heeded my advice and is attempting to secure a personal
physician to monitor her fast. If you ask me that's not too
shabby considering that all I had to do was to "post to this
board" as you say.  :)

 >>How my
 >>expression of genuine concern for Lara has been tortuously
 >>interpreted as an attempt to "control" I'll never know. My mind
 >>just isn't that convoluted so I can't even follow the thought
 >>processes involved that would permit anyone to derive such a
 >>sick meaning from my posts to Lara. Must be 'somebody'
 >>interpreting things the way they want to interpret them regardless
 >>of actual content or intent. A form of "prejudice" if you will.

 >>Just to clarify this for anyone who may be laboring under delusions
 >>or misinterpretations; my legitimate concerns for Lara stem
 >>from the following:

 >>1. Lara is engaged in a long term fast with no set terminus. (She
 >>plans to fast until George Bush caves and responds to her ultimatum.)

 >You don't know this for sure. If there was a terminus it sure
 >would not be made public for Bush to read.

I can only go by what Lara herself tells me Grant. If you know
something that the rest of us don't know, perhaps you'd like to
share it. If not, all I, or anyone else can do is, to take Lara
at her word. 'She says' that she will not stop until Bush
responds. If that isn't the case perhaps you can clarify the
discrepancy.

 >>2. Fasts which extend beyond thirty days _are_physically_harmful_
 >>to the individual that is fasting.

 >A medical reference for this please.

1. Public library.

2. Teachers of Yoga practices/regimens.

3. You might want to try the Internet as well.

Do your own homework Grant. In fact, you should have researched
extended fasting and its effects on the practitioner _before_
you publicized and supported her action. My question to you
would be; How come you have to ask me for references on
information pertaining to extended fasting? Didn't you check it
all out _before_ you encouraged her by acting as her publicist?
I would have thought that you'd be up on _all_ the facts and
nuances of extended fasts. Shame on you. I'm surprised.

 >>3. Her fast is being supervised by an 'herbologist' not a physician.
 >>(A physician can monitor her blood chemistry and provide her with
 >>sound medical advice should any changes that are hazardous to her
 >>health transpire. She can then adjust her nutrient intake accordingly
 >>in order to protect her health.)

 >Old info. Ernie Vega is arranging for a western pill giving
 >witch doctor to supervise.

Your own personal attitude towards western medicine is leaking
Grant. And it's not "old" to me. I only found out Saturday night
when Errol mentioned the fact on air that her fast was being
supervised by an "herbologist" and not an experienced physician.

Through Errol I wrote to Lara recommending that she secure the
services of an MD who can monitor her blood chemistry. I only
hope that she doesn't share your obviously negative attitudes
towards physicians, or chooses not to seek the assistance of one
because (like yourself) she thinks they're all useless witch
doctors. It is _her_ life that is on the line, not yours. It's
_her_ attitudes towards doctors that really counts.

 >>4. Lara, for all her admirable character attributes is just a human
 >>being with all the limitations and physical shortcomings that we
 >>are all prone to.

 >Did someone say she wasn't?

In the post I was responding to, one of her "supporters" seems
to think she is a Force of Nature!  It was that _expressed_
attitude that I was addressing. A valid response I think. But
then, that's just my opinion and that is all any of us can ever
express on this "board" eh?

 >>Those of you who find it 'easy' to egg her on and encourage her
 >>without ever _once_ mentioning the potential hazard to her well
 >>being are doing her a tremendous disservice. Honestly, I get
 >>tired of 'windbags' that have nothing better to do than to hop
 >>onto every bandwagon that rolls into town without once taking
 >>the time to think it through or to conduct a critical evaluation
 >>as to its value.

 >You are claiming those who are involved have not mentioned to
 >her the downside of things?

What are you so upset about Grant? I haven't "claimed" anything.
Nor have I mentioned your name. Do you somehow feel that my
comments are aimed at you personally? Maybe some of it is just
'hitting you in the gut.' I'm not sure which. But it is plain to
see that my remarks have struck a nerve with you. You 'sound'
upset.

Interesting.

 >>I'd have a lot more respect for some of her supporters if they
 >>had the cojones to join her in her fast rather than taking the
 >>easy (and cowardly) route of twisting the meaning of, and verbally
 >>castigating and criticizing others who are expressing _genuine_
 >>concern for Lara's well being.

 >Talk is cheap. Do something for Lara to really help her. Write
 >her congress woman who can actually do somthing to stop the
 >fast.

Nope. I prefer to speak with Lara herself. Like I said earlier,
her congresswoman is not engaged in an extended fast. Lara is. I
thought I made it pretty clear in my first posting that I could
not (in good conscience) support -anything- that might put
someone's life or health in jeopardy. Maybe you ought to go back
and re-read that one.

 >>All I have done is express my concern for Lara. It is 'others'
 >>who are (once again) trying hard to turn it all into an adversarial
 >>(we/they) situation. The finger pointer's are the ones who
 >>continually expend energy to keep the UFO community divided.
 >>They are not only the instigators and culprits of it, they are
 >>the ones who are guilty of the divisiveness  they so easily and
 >>thoughtlessly 'blame' on others.

 >Speaking for myself, I wrote up the story of what Lara had done.

 >Grant

That makes you a 'publisher.' And considering the fact that you
are asking me about basic medical information relating to
extended fasting (you didn't do your own homework or research
_before_ you "published") you're more like the publisher of the
Enquirer who publishes stories without thinking them through or
even researching them properly.  :)

 >"Are you ready for the revolution?"
 >Lara Johnstone, a California woman who began a Hunger Strike for
 >Disclosure on July 28th.

Are you ready to deal with any negative effects this extended
fast may have on Lara's continued health?

Enjoy learning about lengthy, extended fasting. After you do
your homework, you may end up by writing the kind of 'genuinely
concerned' notes to Lara that I have been writing.  :)

Regards,

John Velez








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                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 11:24:20 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:45:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Young


 >Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:45:27 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris

 >>Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 21:47:52 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 21:59:34 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >Some fellow in Europe concocted a fantastic tale, possibly an
 >abduction or whatever, with alien contact wherein the aliens
 >divulged that they had stolen an electrical meter from some
 >house... presumably to see how it worked.

 >His story was blown .. he tripped himself up in some other way,
 >and finally confessed the whole matter if I recall correctly.

 >Before this rude exposure, somebody looked up police records for
 >the town in question, and (gasp!) indeed an electrical meter
 >mysteriously vanished from a house there!

 >It turned out that the perp had looked up the same records, and
 >carefully woven those unlikely facts into his own fantasia,
 >clearly in the hope that someone would find the missing meter
 >records independently!

 >That worked like a charm, for a while at least.

 >The Meter-Man / contactee had a far less elaborate and expensive
 >agenda than any Ray Santilli. All he had to do was dig thru some
 >dusty police records.

Sir Lawrence of Arabia:

Fascinating.

Yeah, if the AA film is faked, which is a decided opinion of
people who have performed autopsies and made movie special
effects, someone went to at least a modest amount of trouble.
Why wouldn't they have wanted to actually take a close look at
the pictures of the reall stuff?

I guess only my friend Neil would have thought of that.


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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                Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

From: sqquishy@altavista.com
Date: 21 Aug 2001 09:48:23 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:52:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -


 >Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 10:05:30 -0400
 >From: Sheree Cox <CoxSheree@netscape.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com (UFO UpDates - Toronto)
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:43:56 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure

 >I agree with John Velez. A Hunger Strike can be very dangerous.
 >Surely there's better and safer ways to protest. Does George
 >Bush really care?

Please tell me. I'm listening.


Grant Cameron



"Are you ready for the revolution?"
Lara Johnstone, a California woman who began a Hunger Strike for
Disclosure on July 28th.












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                    Re: Lexington UFO Video - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 13:44:34 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:54:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Lexington UFO Video - Mortellaro


 >Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:30:56 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Joel Henry <jhenry@visi.com>
 >Subject: Re: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images

 >>Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 12:45:28 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images

 >>>Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 00:09:30 -0400
 >>>From: Kenny Young <ufo@FUSE.NET>
 >>>Subject: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>Folks;

 >>>In regards to the suspected UFO video from Lexington, Kentucky
 >>>ABC affiliate Newschannel 36 WTVQ, a preliminary analysis is
 >>>underway and still images from that video are now available
 >>>online. I hope to receive some explanation for the object on the
 >>>video and hopefully a more detailed assessment will follow
 >>>shortly.

 >>>The link is:

 >>>http://home.fuse.net/ufo/lexufo.html

 >>Hi Kenny,

 >>Thanx for the pix! That's one Hell of a balloon if that's what
 >>it is. The size of a van you say. It would have to be a 'one
 >>off' custom creation if it is a balloon. How many specialty
 >>balloon manufacturers can there be with the capability to
 >>produce such a complex creation? I would imagine only one or two
 >>of a handful of parade balloon manufacturers would be capable of
 >>making a balloon this size, and of this quality of detail. And
 >>no anchoring line? Surprising for what -must be- a terribly
 >>expensive balloon. (If that's what it is.)

 >>If it is a balloon, they should get one for our annual Macy's
 >>Thanksgiving Day parade! Far out. I can hear one of the
 >>spectators now:

 >>"Martha, get in the car and head for New Jersey! They've landed,
 >>they've landed!" ;)

 >It looks like Gamara the flying turtle to me.

Thank you, Joel, for your important observation. Strange how so
many are fooled by Venus, Swamp Gas and Gamara. But this was an
important find. Uh , and I am reminded, Joel, that I and the
general contractors doing our old new home, went out for sushi
last evening, and guess what we saw right there, hovering over
the Goofi Sushi Fresh Fish House?

Gamara ... What a site. Especially with Ikura filled with
Gripple. Mmmm mmmm good.


Morty-San









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                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 13:44:42 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:56:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Rudiak


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:15:37 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >>Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 20:29:01 -0400

 ><snip>

 >>Since the pictures are of the Roswell debris, it is assumed that
 >>the message in Ramey's hand is about Roswell. I am unconvinced
 >>by what people are trying to read on the paper. It could be
 >>anything, including after action comments about General Van's
 >>visit to 8th AF area a few days before.

 >>Of course, for the last 50 years everything breathe any Air
 >>Force office takes involves UFOs, so all the other paperwork is
 >>turned out by gnomes in the Pentagon to cover up what is really
 >>going on.

 >>Ramey like any general officer had 50 items on his calendar
 >>everyday.

 >Hi Jan,

 >What on earth are you talking about? This is just plain silly
 >talk and well below your normal very high standards! Are you
 >overworked or something?

 >It is an indisputable _fact_ that the easiest words to read on
 >the entire Ramey Message are "FORT WORTH, TEX." on Line 3 and
 >"WEATHER BALLOONS" on Line 7. I read them 16 years ago when I
 >borrowed a high res enlargement that Bill Moore had obtained.
 >This tells me, by the way, that they already knew about the
 >Project MOGUL balloon arrays consisting of multiple weather
 >balloons since the reference is to plural "WEATHER BALLOONS."
 >The rest of the text as I read it makes this very clear, i.e.,
 >that the weather balloons had been found near Roswell.

"WEATHER BALLOONS" is certainly there, and by itself tells us
this is about Roswell. How often would Ramey deal with "weather
balloons" in any capacity and be sending telegrams about them?

I disagree, however, with your interpretation of what "weather
balloons" is telling us here. Just because Ramey uses the plural
"balloons" does _not_ mean this has to do with Mogul. Instead, I
read the last 3 lines of the message as having to do with what
the public was being told and how they were covering it up.
"Weather balloons" is in the phrase "NEXT SENT OUT PR [press
release] IS OF WEATHER BALLOONS..." "Weather balloons" was being
used generically here. The next line was about adding RAWIN
demonstration crews to firm up the weather balloon explanation.

What was happening here is that they were gearing up for a
national weather balloon debunking campaign that was to begin
the next day, using weather balloon demonstrations to debunk the
saucers. See, e.g., the following telegram from the night of
July 8 on the Project 1947 web page:

www.project1947.com/roswell/wkzo.htm

(Thanks to Jan Aldrich for putting this interesting document up
on his Web site.)

Here, the newsman is being told by military intelligence in
Washington that they thought radar targets explained all the
recent flying saucer sightings. That was the official drumbeat
for the next few days.

Also note that newsman was told to contact Col. M Duffy in New
Jersey for more information on the radar targets. This is Col.
Marcellus Duffy, who helped develop the RAWIN targets at nearby
Fort Monmouth and was the first Project Officer for Mogul.

This is also the same Col. Duffy who supposedly was at Wright
Field that night examining the debris flown in from Fort Worth
after Ramey had allegedly cancelled the flight. Duffy further
allegedly definitively IDed the material as coming from Project
Mogul, according to Air Force debunkers (this was one of the
cornerstones of their Mogul explanation). But how could Duffy be
doing this if he was actually in New Jersey near Mogul
headquarters?

In DebunkerLand, witnesses for the prosecution are allowed to be
in two places at once. CIC officer Sheridan Cavitt played this
game as well. According to the Air Force Roswell Report, he was
simultaneously back East in training and at Roswell picking up
body parts from a B29 crash in May, 1947. Cavitt also
independently placed himself out on the debris field picking up
a weather balloon, whereas for years he denied being involved or
even stationed at Roswell at the time.

 >Most researchers agree that it is "ROSWELL" or "ROSWELL, NMEX."
 >on Line 5. And I agree that it is signed "RRAMEY" on Line 9.

Agreed, though I think it just says "ROSWELL." and "RAMEY."
(Incidentally, I was the first to propose these
interpretations.) "RAMEY" looks like a 6 letter word because
there is handwriting underneath slanting upward and crossing the
end of the signature line. That, I believe, is the source of the
confusion. The second letter is definitely an "A" and we are not
dealing with a mystery man named "TEMPLE".

 >That pretty much covers most of the visible message and it is
 >flatout undeniable that it _all_ relates to the Roswell
 >incident.

You left out on the big word "DISC" (in quotes) on line 4, which
is undeniably there. (Part of the phrase "IN THE "DISC") There
is also, of course, "VICTIMS" on line 2 (which just about
everybody sees as there, except you Brad, as I understand it).

 >With the rest of the text filled in as I have been
 >able to do, including text hidden under Ramey's thumb, it is of
 >course blatantly obvious it all relates to the Roswell case.

I'm sure there will be battles royal over the exact
interpretation, but this message is flat out, undeniably about
the Roswell Incident. I remember having this argument with Kevin
Randle last year, who was also arguing that there was no
evidence that this message had anything to do with Roswell. Just
a few, clearly visible key words like "DISC" and WEATHER
BALLOONS (not to mention the timing of Ramey holding the message
while he is trying to sell a weather balloon story) says
otherwise.


David Rudiak









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                  Re: Canadian Reports Increase - Rutkowski

From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 14:21:12 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:04:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Canadian Reports Increase - Rutkowski

 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 10:41:04 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Canadian Reports Increase
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA>
 >>Subject: Canadian Reports Increase
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 12:40:28 -0500 (CDT)

 ><snip>

 >>2001 has seen several notable cases reported so far, such as:
 >>- a 10-foot crater found in a field in Alberta, possibly
 >>    connected to witnesses seeing a "fire tornado" in the sky;

 >Chris:
 >Any more details on this?  Could this have been a meteor?

It depends on whom you talk to. It sure looks like one, although
meteor craters of this size are rare. The "fire tornado" was
reported going _up_ rather than down, and the two things are
associated only because of geography; the crater could be
several months older. Although a faculty member from the
University of Lethbridge published a report saying the crater
was most likely a meteor crater, Allan Hildebrand, arguably the
world expert on impact cratering, is fairly sure it's not.

 >>- the re-entry of a Russian rocket booster during the peak of
 >>    the Perseid meteor shower last weekend, seen at the same time
 >>    as triangular formations of UFOs;

You didn't comment on this one, although researchers in the
Maritimes seem convinced that there may have been non-meteor and
non-reentry objects in the sky, too.

 ><snip>

 >>- two people in Surrey, BC, saw a red ball of light drop
 >>    material like "molten red wax" as it moved eastward;

 >Any chance this could be a meteor fireball? Date, Time?

Yes, but check the UFOBC website for details. www.ufobc.ca

 >>- two objects seen for more than an hour moving slowly through
 >>    the sky over Conception Bay, Newfoundland.

 >Any information on the date/time and direction of these?

No, this one was sketchy, unfortunately. I posted more details
to the CANUFO List, however.

 >Clear skies,

 >Bob Young

... and don't mix up your Erfls and Orthos.

May you not get a hernia moving your 36" Dobsonian.

Chris

--
Nobody in particular









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                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 20:26:28 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:06:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Morris



 >Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:45:27 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris

 >>Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 21:47:52 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris

<snip>


 >Hello guys:

 >I'm sorry I cannot cite chapter and verse, I think the following
 >came from one of Vallee's books.

 >Some fellow in Europe concocted a fantastic tale, possibly an
 >abduction or whatever, with alien contact wherein the aliens
 >divulged that they had stolen an electrical meter from some
 >house... presumably to see how it worked.

 >His story was blown .. he tripped himself up in some other way,
 >and finally confessed the whole matter if I recall correctly.

 >Before this rude exposure, somebody looked up police records for
 >the town in question, and (gasp!) indeed an electrical meter
 >mysteriously vanished from a house there!

 >It turned out that the perp had looked up the same records, and
 >carefully woven those unlikely facts into his own fantasia,
 >clearly in the hope that someone would find the missing meter
 >records independently!

 >That worked like a charm, for a while at least.

 >The Meter-Man / contactee had a far less elaborate and expensive
 >agenda than any Ray Santilli. All he had to do was dig thru some
 >dusty police records.

 >For all I know he stole the meter himself in an unrelated prank
 >years earlier. Ever heard of salting the mine? I'll bet the
 >Southwest is full of 55 gallon oil fields.


Larry,

I think this supports my thoughts here, your perpetrator of the
hoax did his homework in the very place researchers were bound
to look, the police records.

In the case of the AA that would be the UTA images, having the
symbols salted away in the obscure Bettmann image is analogous
to your hoaxer hiring a PI to then find an unrecorded crime to
fit into the story in the faint hope that later researchers
might just stumble across it.


Neil








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             Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Jones

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:28:07 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:08:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Jones


 >Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 10:05:30 -0400
 >From: Sheree Cox <CoxSheree@netscape.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com (UFO UpDates - Toronto)
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:43:56 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure

 >I agree with John Velez. A Hunger Strike can be very dangerous.
 >Surely there's better and safer ways to protest. Does George
 >Bush really care?

 >Sheree Cox

John

I would like to add my voice in support of your concerns. I do
not feel that it is right to urge someone to commit harm to
oneself for publicity.

In this (as in many others) case, I am in 100% agreement with you.
--

    In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                         Sean Jones
               http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/











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                Re: Rudolf Fenz - Time Traveler? - Waskiewicz

From: John Waskiewicz <jwaskiew@peoplepc.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 20:38:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:11:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Rudolf Fenz - Time Traveler? - Waskiewicz


 >From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@email.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 15:49:57 +0800
 >Subject: Rudolf Fenz - Time Traveler?

 >Dear List members,

 >A story constantly repeated in Spanish publications concerns one
 >Rudolf Fenz, who is said to have been run over by a car in New
 >York in June 1950. Apparently he appeared out of nowhere. His
 >clothed seemed to belong to the 19th century, though he appeared
 >to be no more than 30 years old. When the police went through
 >the man's pockets they found documents dated 1876 and antique
 >coins. They found his name on one of the documents but there was
 >no record of his existence in 1950 America. But they did find
 >one Rudolf Fenz Jr. in the phone book. Unfortunately this man, a
 >bank clerk, had died not long before, but his widow told the
 >investigator of the case (one Hubert V. Rihn of the Missing
 >Persons Investigation Dept.) that Fenz's father had disappeared
 >mysteriously in the spring of 1876 when he went out to buy
 >tobacco.....

 >The story says that Rihn consulted a list of missing people
 >dated 1876. There was Rudolf Fenz's name, 29 years old, last
 >seen dressed exactly as he was found on 5th Avenue in 1950 under
 >the wheels of an automobile.....

 >Sounds like an urban myth to me. And I've only ever seen it in
 >Spanish. Any bibliographic reference I can give would be
 >practically meaningless, but to name one: 'Los Enigmas
 >Pendientes' edited by Dr. Jimnez del Oso, Ediciones Uve, Madrid
 >1979, pp.75-77.

 >The last time I saw it mentioned in print was last week.

 >Can anyone give me any useful information?


I remember watching PSI Factor on TV here in Detroit over a year
ago, a very similar event except it was a man who disappeared
about 300 years earlier. I wonder if they just took this as a
source? They are said to get their tales from real recorded
events. I find the stories really far-fetched but being a
physicist gets me wondering.

Interesting connections don't you think?










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                    Re: Lexington UFO Video - Kenny Young

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 20:55:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:17:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Lexington UFO Video - Kenny Young


 >Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 17:49:07 -0300
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images

 >Hi Kenny,

 >Have you checked the winds for that day and location?

 >Don Ledger



Hi Don;

No, from my watching the video it seems fairly obvious that this
is just a novelty balloon of some sort, there is nothing about
it (that I can see) to indicate anything at all otherwise that
would warrant any further investigative concern.


Take care,

Kenny Young









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                  Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 01:32:19 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:20:27 -0400
Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Gates


 >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released
 >Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:34:42 +0100


 >>From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released
 >>Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 23:28:15 +0100

 >Pilgrims,

 >Georgina's post, reeking of sour grapes as it does, is highly
 >amusing.

 >Unfortunately we're too busy with proper UFO research to discuss
 >phone calls which may or may not have happened, single radar
 >operator 'sightings' which occupy one paragraph of her book, and
 >other irrelevancies. But, it's a lovely sunny afternoon in the
 >South Pennines, we've just been for a jolly walk and are
 >prepared to have a little fun with Georgina.....

 >Georgina wrote:

 >>I was interested to see the post from Dave Clarke. This of
 >>course was in response to my earlier post, and from the rather
 >>sarcastic comments, I suspect I've upset him by breaking the
 >>story first.

 >Ho, and indeed ho. We have had the Rendlesham file since May
 >2001. Our website was primed and ready to go, waiting to see how
 >Georgina (who only received the files recently) chose to present
 >the material.

 >We weren't disappointed.

 >Instead of choosing to 'tell the people', it's more a case of
 >telling the people to 'buy the magazine'. Georgina's
 >announcement has more to do with puffing up magazine sales than
 >any real desire for you, the ufological public, to read the
 >facts. Mrs Thatcher would be proud of her entrepreneurial
 >acumen!

 >Whereas Dave Clarke has chosen to contextualise and analyse the
 >documents Georgina has chosen merely to advertise them.

 >Georgina's nonsense about us 'distorting' the case can be shown
 >for the tripe it is if you look at flyingsaucery.com. Decide for
 >yourself just how much is 'comment' and how much is presentation
 >of the file itself. The 'comments' by James Easton and Jenny
 >Randles are totally distinct from the Rendlesham File and Dave's
 >commentary. Their views are not necessarily shared by either
 >Dave or myself but both have been major players in the
 >Rendlesham investigation and should be carefully listened to.

 >So, visit flyingsaucery.com where you can read selected
 >documents (for free!), the accompanying comment and analysis
 >(for free) and make your own minds up.

I don't understand. On one hand Dave and Andy claim Georgia is
"puffing" magazine sales and "buy the magazine" yet all they
appear to do is puff flyingsaucery.com and 'go to our web site.'
Gee, I can't tell much difference between what they critique and
what they do!


Cheers,

Robert









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                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 01:43:52 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:22:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Gates


 >From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 23:12:19 +0200

<snip>

 >they were observing this (excerpts):

 >"(...)When the debris was gathered up the tinfoil, paper, tape,
 >and sticks made a bundle about three feet long and 7 or 8 inches
 >thick, while the rubber made a bundle about 18 or 20 inches long
 >and about 8 inches thick. In all, he estimated, the entire lot
 >would have weighed maybe five pounds.


Of interest is the description of how they found it:

   "Brazel related that on June 14 he and 8-year-old son, Vernon
   were about 7 or 8 miles from the ranch house of the J.B.
   Foster ranch, which he operates, when they came upon a large
   area of bright wreckage made up on rubber strips, tinfoil, a
   rather tough paper and sticks.

   At the time Brazel was in a hurry to get his round made and
   he did not pay much attenion to it. But he did remark about
   what he had seen and on July 4 he, his wife, Vernon, and a
   daughter Betty, age 14, went back to the spot and gathered up
   quite a bit of the debris.

   The next day he first heard about the flying disks, and he
   wondered if what he had found might be the remnants of one of
   these."


Cheers,

Robert








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                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 07:48:55 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:24:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Rimmer


 >Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:45:27 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris

 >I'm sorry I cannot cite chapter and verse, I think the following
 >came from one of Vallee's books.

 >Some fellow in Europe concocted a fantastic tale, possibly an
 >abduction or whatever, with alien contact wherein the aliens
 >divulged that they had stolen an electrical meter from some
 >house... presumably to see how it worked.

 >His story was blown .. he tripped himself up in some other way,
 >and finally confessed the whole matter if I recall correctly.

 >Before this rude exposure, somebody looked up police records for
 >the town in question, and (gasp!) indeed an electrical meter
 >mysteriously vanished from a house there!

 >It turned out that the perp had looked up the same records, and
 >carefully woven those unlikely facts into his own fantasia,
 >clearly in the hope that someone would find the missing meter
 >records independently!
 >- Larry Hatch

 >PS: Please don't hold me to precise details. This is completely
 >from fuzzy memory [burp!] but I believe I have the general gist
 >of it.

You're quite right. I don't have a reference to hand either, but
the incident was one of the formative cases in the long-running
UMMO hoax.


John Rimmer

Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                 New Developments In Linda Cortile Abduction

From: Intruders Foundation <IFConfer@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:41:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:37:37 -0400
Subject: New Developments In Linda Cortile Abduction


Intruders Foundation Seminar Series Announcement

Saturday, September 8, 2001

DRAMATIC NEW DEVELOPMENTS IN THE LINDA CORTILE ABDUCTION CASE

The November 30, 1989, UFO abduction of Linda Cortile and the
complex series of events which followed that night have so
drastically altered our knowledge of alien incursion into our
world that it is easily history's most important abduction case.

Subsequent events have made the truth of that statement even
more certain. On Saturday, September 8th, at our first IF
seminar of the fall season, Budd Hopkins will present dramatic
new information from previously silent witnesses in this
extraordinary case.

In addition to these important new witness accounts Budd will
also offer evidence that Linda Cortile and "Richard," one of the
government agents involved in this encounter, separately gave
full accounts of the abduction to the most powerful Catholic
prelate in the United States - New York's Cardinal O'Connor.
Further, the Cardinal's close connection with the Vatica n makes
it virtually certain that details of that night were made known
to the Pope, and that the Vatican's recent public interest in
theological issues raised by the "theoretical" discovery of
alien intelligence is a direct result of this November 30, 1989,
event.

Sound outrageous? You be the judge. This first seminar is one
which no one interested in the abduction phenomenon will want to
miss.

We will very shortly publish the speakers and subjects of our
fall schedule, but mark down the dates: Octob er 13th, November
17th, and December 8th, our annual fundraiser and art sale at
Budd Hopkins' studio.

We look forward to seeing you again, and remember, seating is
limited to the first fifty people who make reservations.


REGISTRATION & INFORMATION

The seminar will be held on September 8th at the meeting rooms
of A.R.E., on the tenth floor of 150 W. 28th Street, New York,
NY. The price of the seminar is $30 for non-members and $20 for
members of IF, seniors, and students.

Reservations must be made by telephone at 212-645-5278, and will
be filled on a first come, first served basis. Payment must be
made in advance to secure the reservation. Make checks payable
to the Intruders Foundation, P.O. Box 30233, New York, NY 10011.
Only 50 reservations will be accepted.

On-street parking is generally available in the neighborhood.
The seminar will begin at 7:30 PM and end at 10:00PM. Doors open
at 7:00 PM. There will be a one half-hour intermission, during
which light complimentary refreshments will be served. A book
table will offer books, videotapes, and other material for sale
to those interested. For additional information, call IF at
212-645-5278.

Hope to see you there!

----------

The Intruders Foundation Seminar Series is presented in the
interests of open-minded scientific learning and the free
exchange of research, ideas, and theories. IF makes no specific
claims or endorsements regarding any materials, views, or
subject matter presented by our guests.

----------

Want to know more about Budd Hopkins and his nonprofit
scientific research organization, as well as past and future IF
events? Please visit our website:

www.intrudersfoundation.org

----------








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                    Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze

From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:34:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:20:55 -0400
Subject: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze


A strange coincidence has arisen.

Lara is planning to be in Washington Oct.4 as part of her
commitment to get President Bush to keep his promise made to
Charles Huffer in July 2000 related to UFOs.

In Washington at the same time as Lara, according to a press
release from the White House today will be a famous UFO
personality Eduard Shevardnadze. He will be meeting with
President Bush Oct.5. Will they discuss UFOs? Only time will
tell.

Shevardnadze gained his UFO reputation after having two
conversations with former President Ronald Reagan. The two
events were:

The first series of alien comments made by President Reagan came
during the November 1985 Geneva Summit between Ronald Reagan and
U.S.S.R. General Secretary Mikhail Gorbachev. During a series of
impromptu toasts on November 19, President Reagan began his
toast by discussing an invasion of aliens approaching on
Halley's Comet. A Memorandum of Conversation from the United
States Department of State recorded Reagan's comment.


"Reagan said that while the General Secretary was speaking, he
had been thinking of various problems being discussed at the
talks. He said that previous to the General Secretary's remarks,
he had been telling Foreign Minister Shevardnadze (who was
sitting to the President's right) that if the people of the
world were to find out that there was some alien life form that
was going to attack the Earth approaching on Halley's Comet,
then that knowledge would unite all the peoples of the world."


The second event occured with Soviet Foreign Minister Eduard
Shevardnadze while Shevardnadze's was in Washington to sign the
INF Treaty on September 15, 1987. According to the New republic
magazine who reported the story:


"...near the end of his lunch with Shevardnadze Reagan wondered
aloud what would happen if the world was faced with an �alien
threat' from outer space. 'Don't you think the United States and
the Soviet Union would be together?' Reagan asked. Shevardnadze
said yes, absolutely. 'And we wouldn't need our Defense
Ministers to meet.'"

_____________________________________________________________

Today's Release:

THE WHITE HOUSE

Office of the Press Secretary
(Crawford, Texas)


For Immediate Release August 28, 2001


STATEMENT BY THE PRESS SECRETARY

Georgian President Shevardnadze to Visit Washington

President Bush will welcome President Eduard Shevardnadze of
Georgia to Washington for a working visit on October 5. This
visit reflects the partnership between the United States and
Georgia, as both countries strive to strengthen Georgia's
sovereignty and free market, democratic transformation; to
advance Georgia's integration into the global economy; and to
foster stability throughout the Caucasus region.


---


"Are you ready for the revolution?" Lara Johnstone, a California
woman who began a Hunger Strike for Disclosure on July 28th.







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                    UFO Conference - New Jersey 10-6/7-01

From: Tom Benson <sparkle@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 22:25:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:25:16 -0400
Subject:  UFO Conference - New Jersey 10-6/7-01


Dear List:

Another Great UFO/ET Congress will occur on October 6 & 7, 2001
at the Days Inn, Rt. # 206 & NJTP Exit #7 near Bordentown, New
Jersey. Speakers include:

George Hansen, a long time paranormal researcher, will discuss
his new book, The Trickster and the Paranormal. Please check his
web site for more details: www.tricksterbook.com.

Antonio Huneeus science writer and columnist for Fate magazine
will give two UFO Chronicles lectures. The first lecture is a
comprehensive review of UFO Evidence from Argentina, Chile and
Brazil. He worked as an advisor for two seasons of a UFO series
produced by the Chilean National TV Network which contained
abduction reports, police and pilot reports with radar. This
illustrated presentation includes the former president of
Chile's own experience with a UFO. The second illustrated
lecture will give a comprehensive review of UFO evidence from
Spain, Italy, Hungary and a host of other nations. Antonio
published the only article concerning the Mussolini UFO
documents. The full story of these "X Files" from the Italian
Fascist era in the 1930's, where secret documents describe
"unconventional air mobiles", will be revealed. This and much
more European info was obtained from the International UFO
Symposium of 2001 in the Republic of San Marino,! (located in
central Italy) where he recently returned from, and has lectured
there for the past four years. He also spoke at the Budapest,
Hungary International UFO Conference and he was presented there
with an award. He will describe great UFO police reports and
will have film to share with us.

Georgio Tsoukalos will discuss: Legacy of the Gods. Georgio
published the Legendary Times journal. He is America's direct
link to Eric Von daniken and he will present the latest
discoveries in the Ancient Astronauts field. Find out about the
Mysterious Flying Turtles of Guatemala; the world-wide
phenomenon of Inca walls and cave drill holes; and as an
exclusive the pyramid found in Greece. Who depicted the ancient
stone statues found all over the ancient world, really? Discover
the world full of mysteries which stimulates your thoughts and
raise your curiosity even more...!

Susan L. Swiatek will talk on New Abduction Cases. She is an
Associate for the Fund For UFO Research and was the
co-coordinator for the MUFON International UFO Symposium in 1999
in Arlington, Virginia. She is coming from Virginia to give us
an illustrated lecture on newly researched abduction cases, and
her personal experiences. One exciting case concerns a lifetime
of abductions that happened to a musician in New Jersey where
the entities actually communicated with him. In another weird
case, an Man in Black experience unfolded.

Donald Rose will discuss Occultism in Ufology. Don is a musician
and he will speak on the role occultism plays in the study of
Ufology. He will share his personal experiences with us. Mr.
Rose was a long time correspondent with Albert Bender, author of
Flying Saucers and the Three Men in Black; Berthold E. Schwarz,
MD, author of Psychic and Psychiatric Aspects of the UFO, UFO
Dynamics, (2 volumes). and with Gray Barker, author of They Knew
Too Much About Flying Saucers, The Silver Bridge and many
others.

Rick Hilberg will speak on The First Thirty Years of the UFO.
This will be a fascinating all-illustrated historical look at
the UFO Phenomenon through its important early years, when
characteristics and patterns emerged. Mr. Hilberg lives in Ohio
and he has been actively investigating UFO sightings and
incidents, as well as writing about UFOs since 1962. He is the
editor of Flying Saucer Digest, one of the oldest and most
respected UFO publications and the author of many books
including his latest, The Last Great Flap: 1973-1974, just
published by his organization, the United Aerial Phenomena
Agency. He is one of the founders of the National UFO Conference
and has spoken at hundreds of conferences all over the United
States. You will find this as one of the most informative
lectures experiences you ever heard!

Jim Wilson talk is entitled: When UFOs Land. Over the years
Popular Mechanics magazine has looked into the hundreds of
reported UFO sightings. During his illustrated presentation, Mr.
Wilson the Science Editor for this publication, will look at
many of the most significant unexplained sightings. In addition,
Jim is the author of his new book: Combat - the Great American
War Planes. A Popular Mechanics exhibit will be on display at
the Congress!

Major George Filer, USAF (ret.) will speak on The Disclosure
Project of Government Knowledge of UFOs which he participated in
and was put together by Stephen Greer, MD. A press conference
was held in Washington. D.C. in May, 2001 at the National Press
Club where over 200 reporters and 20 TV stations including
ABC, CBS, BBC and CNN, came to hear many military intelligence
and government personnel telling their UFO experiences. Over 400
professional people want to testify before the U.S. Congress in
open hearings on the subject of UFOs. Major Filer is editor of
Filer's Files and he will also share his research into the
Carteret, New Jersey mystery lights in July, 2001 which was in
the news several days. George is also the Eastern Regional
Director for the Mutual UFO Network receiving and researching
UFO sightings all over the east coast. His Filer's Files
internet site had half million hits just last month. Check it
out!

Ronald D. Story will speak on The UFO Encyclopedia Project. His
illustrated presentation highlights selected moments in UFO
history. Ron is the editor of 'The Encyclopedia of UFOs',
(1980), a comprehensive and objective book on A to Z of
sightings, personalities, theories, feature articles and
illustrated. He has written four other UFO related books The
author's UFO background includes contact with such luminary
researchers such as Dr.James McDonald, Dr. Carl Sagan, Dr. J.
Allen Hynek and Jim and Coral Lorenzen, which he will be sharing
with us. Ron's new book is called 'The Encyclopedia of
Extraterrestrial Encounters'.

Diana Palmer Hoyt will discuss UFOs, Social Intelligence and the
Condon Committee, her Masters thesis paper on the academic
ridicule of the UFO subject. She is currently employed by NASA
in the Washington, D.C. area.

Thomas Hackney will speak on The Big 10/4 ET Acknowledges. Tom
relates three intelligent signals received in response to NASA's
Columbus Day launch of the high resolution microwave survey,
mankind's first major and official SETI project. The most
conspicuous and spectacular of these was the UFO - IFO event
that amazed the entire world: 21 comet impacts of the planet
Jupiter. Impossible to forget in a million years, it marked for
all time the moment it all began between our species.

For more information such as a schedule of talks and costs,
please contact Pat. J. Marcattilio, 221 Joan Terrace, Hamilton,
N.J. 08629, or phone (609)631-8955 between 11:00 am to 3:00 PM
or email your address to sparkle@earthlink.net

Additional information will be posted to this List soon.


Tom Benson


--- Tom Benson
--- sparkle@earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.









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                     Re: Ramey's Debris - Gonzlez Manso

From: Luis R. Gonzlez Manso <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 11:54:03 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:26:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Gonzlez Manso



 >Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:45:27 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris

 >Some fellow in Europe concocted a fantastic tale, possibly an
 >abduction or whatever, with alien contact wherein the aliens
 >divulged that they had stolen an electrical meter from some
 >house... presumably to see how it worked.

 >His story was blown .. he tripped himself up in some other way,
 >and finally confessed the whole matter if I recall correctly.

 >Before this rude exposure, somebody looked up police records for
 >the town in question, and (gasp!) indeed an electrical meter
 >mysteriously vanished from a house there!

 >It turned out that the perp had looked up the same records, and
 >carefully woven those unlikely facts into his own fantasia,
 >clearly in the hope that someone would find the missing meter
 >records independently!

Dear Larry,

You are talking about the infamous UMMO hoax, but the answer is
not so simple. Mr. Pea (the hoaxer) lives in Spain and the
alleged electrical meter robbed by the ummites was in La Javie
(France) (about 2.000 kms far away).


LuisR.








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                          Secrecy News -- 08/22/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@igc.org>
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:15:05 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:28:26 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/22/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
August 22, 2001

**      ANTI-LEAK BILL DRAWS OPPOSITION
**      THE RWANDA GENOCIDE AND THE US RESPONSE
**      FRUS VOLUME ON GREECE STILL SUPPRESSED


ANTI-LEAK BILL DRAWS OPPOSITION

As word spreads that Congress may enact legislation to make all
unauthorized disclosures of classified information a felony,
public outrage and opposition are beginning to mount.

"At a time when the rest of the world is looking to America for
leadership on openness, Congress would make it harder for
Americans to know what their government is doing," writes Tom
Blanton of the National Security Archive in a powerful op-ed in
today's New York Times:

  http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/22/opinion/22BLAN.html

The "anti-leak" proposal (which was vetoed last year by
President Clinton) would criminalize disclosure of "the kind of
information Americans need to debate issues like the
effectiveness of Washington's military aid to Colombia's drug
war or the chances for success of a new peacekeeping operation
in Macedonia," the New York Times editorialized yesterday:

  http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/21/opinion/21TUE2.html

The Senate Intelligence Committee, which was criticized for
pushing the proposal last year without an opportunity for public
debate, has scheduled a seemingly perfunctory hearing on the
matter on September 5.


THE RWANDA GENOCIDE AND THE US RESPONSE

The dawning awareness that a full-fledged genocide was taking
place in Rwanda in 1994 elicited only a feeble response from
official Washington, and many thousands of innocent lives that
could have been saved were lost as a result.

Newly declassified records documenting official reaction to
reports from Rwanda were obtained by Will Ferroggiaro of the
National Security Archive, which published them on Monday.

"Until now, we could only speculate as to what U.S. officials
knew about the genocide or what they were arguing in closed
diplomatic forums," Mr. Ferroggiaro said. "The documents provide
essential evidence of official inaction in the face of the
slaughter in Rwanda in 1994." See:

  http://www.nsarchive.org/NSAEBB/NSAEBB53/press.html

These records help inform a long, gripping article in the
September issue of The Atlantic Monthly entitled "Bystanders to
Genocide: Why the United States Let the Rwandan Tragedy Happen"
by Samantha Power (not yet available online).

Power's account of the genocide, in which 500,000 Rwandans were
killed, is passionately argued, but is unlikely to be the last
word on this horror. She explains the inadequate U.S. response
primarily by pointing to the personal defects of individual
leaders.

"President Clinton certainly could have known that a genocide
was under way, if he had wanted to know," she writes angrily and
somewhat coarsely.

Power insists that the Rwandan killers' intention to commit
genocide was known or "knowable" by U.S. policymakers early on.
"Any failure to fully appreciate the genocide," she insists,
"stemmed from political, moral, and imaginative weaknesses, not
informational ones."

But this overlooks some of the "informational" complexities that
appear to have conditioned the U.S. response.

During the first week of the genocide, officials in Washington
received as many as a thousand separate intelligence reports on
Rwanda per day, writes Alan J. Kuperman in his important new
book on the Rwanda genocide, "The Limits of Humanitarian
Intervention" (Brookings, 2001).

Due to the flood of often inconsistent information, "The
circuits were overwhelmed," Kuperman quotes a State Department
intelligence official as saying.

"One coping mechanism among veteran Washington intelligence
officials faced with such information overload is to dismiss
extreme, unconfirmed reports," Kuperman writes.

Thus, other executive branch agencies rejected the "extreme"
estimates of the progress of the genocide that were developed by
the Defense Intelligence Agency, although these would
subsequently prove to be the most accurate. The other agencies
explicitly noted their disagreement in intelligence summaries
prepared for the President, Kuperman reports in his book.

The point is not to diminish the responsibility of U.S.
officials. Rather, if Kuperman's analysis is correct, a close
examination of the Rwanda case may hold practical lessons for
U.S. intelligence and national security policy that go beyond
reproaching the terrible failures of individual leaders.

For more information on Kuperman's book see:

  http://www.brook.edu/press/books/humanitarian_intervention.htm


FRUS VOLUME ON GREECE STILL SUPPRESSED

Under pressure from the Central Intelligence Agency, the State
Department continues to defer publication of a volume of
historical documents on U.S. policy towards Greece in the
Johnson Administration.

The volume, "Foreign Relations of the United States (FRUS),
1964-1968: Cyprus, Greece, Turkey," which is already printed and
bound, sits in storage awaiting official clearance for release.

According to news reports, some officials fear that publication
of the FRUS history, which makes references to clandestine U.S.
intervention in Greek elections in the 1960s, could inspire an
attack by the Greek terrorist organization 17 November. Others
worry that it could disrupt the upcoming Cypriot elections.

Recently, the delayed publication was analyzed in the Greek
press, which mocked the CIA's reluctance to permit publication.

"Everyone who has read it believes that this is much ado about
nothing," wrote reporter Alexis Papakhelas, referring
Homerically to the "wine-colored" FRUS volume.

He quoted a US diplomat who said that "Even if we had nothing to
hide, the CIA's behavior reinforces the suspicion and the
certainty that we are trying to keep some sinful skeletons from
the past buried."

Mr. Papakhelas is author of a related book (in Greek) based on
documents he obtained under the Freedom of Information Act
entitled something like "The Rape of Greek Democracy."

See his article "The CIA's Secret Files on Greece," published in
the Athens newspaper To Vima on August 12 and translated by the
Foreign Broadcast Information Service, here:

  http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/08/gr081201.html

The matter was investigated further by George Lardner in the
Washington Post on August 17:

  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15770-2001Aug15.html

******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@fas.org> with this
command in the body of the message:

subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]


Secrecy News is archived at:

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_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Aug > Aug 30

         UFO UpDate:CCCRN News: Formation Report 2001 #6 - Dauphin,

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 18:23:21 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:30:36 -0400
Subject: UFO UpDate:CCCRN News: Formation Report 2001 #6 - Dauphin,


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

August 22, 2001

_____________________________


FORMATION REPORT 2001 #6 - DAUPHIN, MANITOBA


Preliminary Report - August 22, 2001

Dauphin, Manitoba
July 22, 2001

Report received from Jack Doss at CKDM 730 radio in Dauphin.
Reported to the station when they did a replay of a Saskatchewan
interview with CCCRN from last week (CKDM will be playing an
updated interview as well sometime today for their agricultural
report).

Four circles found by farmer Jim Pavlin in his canola field near
a road in the early morning around July 22. Not there the
previous day according to the farmer as they would have been
seen by the field workers. Circles were about 10.5 meters (35
feet), 9 meters (30 feet), 6 meters (20 feet) and 3 meters (10
feet) diameter, in a straight line diagonal to the edge of the
field, going from largest to smallest with about 0.6  to 0.9
meters (2 to 3 feet) of standing crop between each circle,
making the formation just over 30 meters (100 feet) in length.
No tracks seen going into the formation when first discovered.
One circle was directly under some overheard power lines.
Another farm assistant, Darren Damsgaard, said that he was
probably the first to enter the circles and saw no entry
pathways in the surrounding crop, but did see clear paths left
by himself where he walked through the crop afterwards to look
at the formation. The lay in each circle is interesting; while
going in the usual general spiral pattern, the crop was
flattened in one direction for about six feet, then abruptly
changed to the opposite direction for another six feet or so,
then back again, etc. Stalks were bent and snapped at the base
near the ground, but otherwise no other damage seen to the
plants themselves. The canola had also already pretty much
deflowered at this point. Photos were taken by the farmer, the
local Dauphin Herald newspaper and the local RCMP. Copies and
further information should be available soon.

Our CCCRN Saskatchewan team may be able to get to the location
over the next couple weeks although it is some distance from our
primary setup in Saskatchewan for that time, or our Manitoba
coordinator or other assistants may be able to. The field has
been swathed now, although again as in previous cases, the
circles themselves are still pretty much intact, being flattened
right down to the ground.

This is the sixth reported formation for 2001.

(Reminder - during the next two weeks starting this weekend, I
will be travelling through Saskatchewan and Alberta for Crop
Watch 2001. During that time I can be reached by my cell -
604.727.1454 - or my alternate e-mail address -
cccrn@hotmail.com - please use these for urgent or necessary
messages, ie. formation reports,etc. and I will return regular
correspondence when I get back, thanks!).

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events. CCCRN
News is available free by subscription:

To subscribe to CCCRN News, send a blank e-mail to:

cccrnnews-subscribe@topica.com


CCCRN News Archive:

http://www.topica.com/lists/cccrnnews/read


The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which investigates the crop circle
phenomenon and other possibly related phenomena in Canada,
creating a liason between researchers, farmers, the public, the
media and scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma

Main Office:
202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

Provincial Branches:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/contacts.html

Circle Phenomena in Canada 2001:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/circlescanada01.html

Fields of Dreams Webcast Radio Show:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/fieldsofdreams.html


� Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2001









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Aug > Aug 30

                        Filer's Files #34 - 08-22-01

From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:06:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:33:58 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #34 - 08-22-01


Filer's Files #34 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
August 22, 2001, Majorstar@aol.com.
Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com,

UFOs are reported in New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, North
Carolina, Indiana, Illinois, California, Canada, Greece,
Turkey, New Zealand and from space.

NEW PLANETARY SYSTEM

University of California at Berkeley announced that astronomers
have discovered a planetary system with two giant planets
centered on a star that is similar to our sun in chemical
composition. The findings indicate smaller planets similar to
Earth may be located in orbits inside these giant planets. The
astronomers believe many stars may have solar systems similar
to our own. Assuming the inner plants actually exist they are
likely to have water and life may flourish there. The newly
found solar system is orbiting Ursae Majoris only 45 light
years away, about 200 trillion miles from Earth. "Of all the
solar systems that have been found, this is the one that looks
the most like our own," said Debra Fischer, an astronomer.
"Nothing else is even close."

NEW YORK 5 TO 8 CIRCULAR OBJECTS

STATEN ISLAND -- We were on the beach at midnight on July 15,
2001, looking into sky with friends and other watchers. We
noticed 5 to 8 circular burnt orange colored lights in
formation flying over Staten Island. These lights were all
lined up horizontally. They moved slowly towards our direction.
Due to a disruption, we had to leave the scene but other
watchers stayed. Thanks to Joe Stefula

NEW JERSEY OVAL UFO

PALISADES PARK -- Several witnesses reported seeing a UFO
descend from the sky on August 16, 2001. The witness states,
"My wife, my neighbor and I saw an object come down from the
sky at 9:30 PM. The craft was oval shape with a cap full of
white colored lights. This is the first UFO we have ever seen.
Thanks to Varadaraj Kandasamy at aradraj2000@aol.com

TRENTON -- Several reports have come in from witnesses watching
from the Scenic Point on Route 295 over looking the Delaware
River. They report seeing strange moving lights at night. Some
are round and others spear shaped moving over the woods and
river. A diamond shaped craft was also sighted on August 18,
2001. The sightings have continued for the last week and video
has been taken. Reports from this general area have continued
regularly through the years. Frequently, the sightings have
involved several islands in the Delaware River north of
Philadelphia and south of Trenton near Burlington. This area
appears to be heating up again.

CARTERET INVESTIGATION CONTINUES -- Gabriel wrote and phoned to
tell me he was a witness to the Carteret sighting. He was
located near the large satellite dishes in Carteret. He reports
he had the best seat there and saw it all unfold. The witness
claims, "I saw it from two directions from Exit 13 and Exit 15
of the New Jersey Turnpike where dozens of cars were stopped to
watch. The object observed by hundreds was a dark black space
craft for sure with a triangular shape. Gabriel states, "I had
a pair of binoculars and I saw a ship I know what a ship looks
like. All the lights were attached to the large ship. I was
looking right at the ship it had a dark shadow ''V' shape
behind the lights. Also those people that saw the lights didn't
see that there was a couple of small ships first. That is why
the video shows the lights were in too different forms. The
other was a single light with 'v' shape. There was allot going
on that night. We also noticed that all commercial ! aircraft
had stopped flying over the area. Thanks to Gabriel
GabrielBellotti@aol.com Bayonne, NJ

PENNSYLVANIA ELONGATED RECTANGLE UFO

NEW HOPE -- Anthony Volpe reports that on June 17, 2001, Lynn
and I were traveling east on Woodhill Road in Upper Makefield
Township. The sky was clear and cloudless. As we crested a hill
and cleared the trees blocking our view, we saw an object
hovering in the foreground. Being familiar with the area, we
estimated that it was hovering over the Delaware River. It was
slightly larger than 1/2 inch as viewed at arm's length. It was
shaped like a 'bar' or elongated rectangle with square ends.
The color was a nonreflecting white. If clouds were available
it could have easily hid among them, but there was not a cloud
in the sky. We consulted a local map for distance and direction
information. The distance to the Delaware River from our
sighting location is one and six-tenths of a mile (1.6 mi.) The
UFO was hovering at a 30-degree angle above the horizon. The
direction was 303 degrees compass heading on our map.
Extrapolation of the size, distance and angle above the hor!
izon shows the UFO to be approx. 170 feet long hovering at
approx. nine-tenths of a mile (4,750 ft,) at a distance of 1.6
miles away from our viewing site. Lynn and I observed the UFO
hovering for several minutes. We lost sight of it as we
approached Interstate I-95 South. Thanks to the Volpes
Force_19118@hotmail.com

NORTH CAROLINA DISK SHAPE OBJECT CHANGING COLORS

MOORESVILLE -- On August 6, 2001, my son, my boyfriend and
myself were watching TV when my boyfriend went outside to smoke
a cigarette. He came in and had a strange look on his face and
went into the bedroom and grabbed his binoculars and said,
"Come see this!" The three of us went out on the porch at 12:40
AM and looked west above the treeline and saw an object that
was moving from side to side and up and down, changing colors
from a whitish blue to red then to green. We watched this for
about 11 minutes until it dropped below the treeline. I have
never been a believer of UFO's but after seeing this disk, I
question my belief. A brief description of the witnesses'
backgrounds are, 41 year old nurse, 20 yr. old navy enlistee
and a 40 yr. old ex military combat engineer who all saw the
same thing with our own eyes. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC
www.ufocenter.com

INDIANA OVAL SHAPED UFO PHOTOGRAPHED

INDIANAPOLIS -- Tom Sheets ISUR received the following report
from Angela Clark about her sighting on August 7, 2001, at
about 5:30 PM. She let the family dog out into the backyard and
noticed an object in the sky in the vicinity of some clouds.
She continued to watch as the object suddenly darted straight
down and made a quick 90-degree turn to the right, suddenly
stopping to hover over some adjacent homes. I phoned Angela who
described the object as appearing oval shaped, metallic
colored, and lighter on top and darker on the bottom. It had a
wobbly spin while hovering and there was a slight haze around
the craft. She estimated the distance at 1/4 mile and altitude
at 2500 to 3000 feet, and actual size as similar to 3 or 4
automobiles (HUMVEES) grouped together. Angela is a former
police officer, skydiver, and military dependent. The witness
stated she then ran into her computer room and grabbed her
digital camera, returned and snapped a photo of the hovering
object. ! (See www.filersfiles.com) At that point the object
slowly began to move upwards, then quickly accelerated upwards
and out of sight so fast she could not track it. Angela
forwarded a copy of the photo to ISUR and me for preliminary
inspection. The photo indicates a bright sunny day, with a few
cumulus clouds, the glare of the sun is evident on the clouds
and on the hovering object. The object appears to be oval
shaped but could be 'capsule' shaped and hovering beyond and
over some homes. Angela is currently a homemaker studying for a
medical certification. She is an excellent witness. The case
has been turned over to Indiana MUFON, State Director Jerry
Sievers for a local in-depth investigation. Thanks to ISUR
isur@america.net, and Tom Sheets tangosix@webtv.net, ISUR
Board, SD MUFON of Georgia.

SOUTH BEND -- On August 14, 2001, Mark Radecki, 47, was sitting
on the back door step when he heard a whistle, like a hawk
makes. He looked up expecting to see a hawk when he spotted a
black coffin shaped object directly overhead traveling
northwest at 1342 hours (1:42 PM). It flew away at a steady
speed of 1400 MPH. The witness heard the whistle one more time
before it flew behind some trees. Mark says, "My estimate is
that it was fairly low 800-1500 feet, and at its speed it would
have crossed the entire sky, being directly overhead, I about 6
seconds. A favorite hobby of mine is to sit in the yard, with
my binoculars and field guide, and watch and identify all the
aircraft that cross the sky. So I am familiar with all types of
aircraft, their speeds, and altitudes. This was not one of
them. Mark also saw a black egg shaped UFO with short stubby
wings ten years ago. The object was one inch in size at arm's
length. Sky was partly sunny, w/high cumulus clouds, 80 degr!
ees, 10 MPH wind. Thanks to Skywatch and UFO-PI Online
Reporting and Mark Radeckiclr46614@aol.com
PaulWillison@webtv.net

ILLINOIS SPHERES

WILDWOOD -- This is the second sighting of similar objects
within the past six months for me. I first saw two objects on
April 26, 2001, and a report was filed. On August 2, 2001, I
was able to distinguish a little more detail than the first
time. I observed directly west of Route 45 and Center Street in
Grayslake two bright lights stationary in the sky at 1:15 PM.
They were not moving as in the first sighting. This time I was
able to get my wife to view these objects with me and with
binoculars. They were round and had lights, which seemed to be
like multiple strings descending from top to bottom. They could
have been windows but were too far distant to really confirm.
When I looked at them with just my normal eyesight they were
very bright in the sky, and with the binoculars I could
distinguish the strands of lights on the side of the object.
They were quite a way's off in the distance but were very
large. They started moving towards the southwest after about 15
mi! nutes until they disappeared. Once they started moving, they
moved rather slowly. During the first sighting I had, they
moved very fast

CHICAGO -- It was about 3:00 AM on August 5, 2001, some friends
and I were sitting around in my friends yard talking and one of
my friends pointed to the sky and said, "What is that?" We all
looked to where he was pointing and I saw an object that seemed
to be glowing with its own light traveling across the sky from
southeast to northwest at a steady rate. The object appeared to
me to be squarish and a yellow orange color with very faint red
spots of light surrounding it. I heard no noise. The object
traveled in a straight line across the sky, not speeding up or
slowing down. It was a very clear night, with a nearly full
moon. We had observed several planes traveling from west to
east that night, both before and after we saw this object. They
were all obviously planes, with the tell tale blinking lights
and the jet noises. This object was different. We immediately
began listing off the things it could possibly be. Someone
suggested that maybe it was a children's ball! oon caught in
some freak jet stream. However, the wind wasn't blowing and the
stars were clear, not shimmering like on windy nights. I got
out my camera and snapped some pictures of the object, but as
of yet haven't gotten them developed. A similar object was seen
on August 9. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC

WISCONSIN LIGHTS KNOCK OUT POWER

MERCER -- J writes on the evening of August 3, 2001, I was
traveling to northern Wisconsin with a friend for fishing. We
were about 3 miles south of Mercer on US 51 at 12:30 AM when
large bright yellow-orange lights appeared in the sky directly
a mile ahead of us at 1,500 feet altitude. They were about the
size of your thumbnail at arm's length. The full moon was up
and the lights were just slightly smaller. The lights almost
looked like yellow orange fireballs, but didn't flicker and the
outside edges had a blur or hazy appearance. The lights were
"stacked" directly above each other a 100 yards apart. We both
saw the lights as if someone switched on a light. We drove
until we were a half mile away and I stopped to get my camera
from the trunk. Then the lights moved straight up and the
spacing between them doubled. As we exited the car the lights
moved to our left about a half mile all without changing their
formation. The sky was clear and as I took the first flash !
picture, the lights converged towards the middle light and
formed a perfect triangle on a horizontal plane at 200 yards
apart. I took 6 pictures in 5 minutes.

There was no noise even my hunting dog was quiet and still,
which is very unusual. We drove a mile further down the road
and snapped another picture just as a pickup truck swerved
sending gravel flying. I pulled along side the truck, and young
driver said, "What the hell am I looking at? I've been watching
those lights for about 10 minutes and when I saw your flash I
knew you guys saw them too." The three of us watched the lights
rise slowly, then the speed increased until they reached an
altitude of about a mile and they disappeared. We drove into
Mercer and realized the town was blacked out. I contacted the
power company and they said the outage was caused by a
"regulator reset." Thanks to Jim Aho W-Files
http://www.w-files.com

CALIFORNIA DISK SHAPED OBJECT SLOWLY MOVING

MAMMOTH LAKES -- I was camping out near Mammoth Mountain when
the crickets stopped chirping at 3:45 AM on August 7, 2001.
 From the West, I noticed a dark disk shaped object slowly
moving and stopping as it made its way towards my location. I
was inside my sleeping bag next to my girlfriend who was
asleep. The object got within fifty feet and I was frozen in
fear and curiosity. I watched the craft slowly slip by,
stopping for a few seconds at a time and continuing. There was
a very slight hum. The craft emitted a dull blue beam from the
far edge of the disc as though it was searching for someone.
The craft was now clearly visible as a shiny disc, and came to
a complete stop. I crawled towards it hoping it didn't detect
me. I kept thinking that this craft might have infrared or heat
sensors to detect any movement outside, but there was no
deviation from its course/task. At one point, the craft got to
about 2 feet from the ground and the humming became louder. I
got back ! without causing any notice when the craft became
enveloped by the surrounding area. It became invisible, but
with a slight atmospheric distortion. I watched this
mirage-like phenomenon float upwards until I could not see it
anymore. Five minutes later, the crickets started again and I
stayed up all night. This has changed my life forever and makes
me realize we are not alone.

YOSEMITE NATIONAL PARK -- On the evening of August 8, 2001, at
10:15 PM my girl friend and I were looking at the night sky
while camping at the North shore of Saddlebag Lake (elevation:
10,000 feet). The sky was clear, and moonless. We witnessed and
heard a formation of three "military fighter jets," displaying
normal navigational lights, and flying at 15,000 feet on a due
west heading. Trailing the formation of fighters at the 8
o'clock position was a large "Chevron Shaped Object," backlit
by starlight." We estimated the Chevron to be 100 yards from
wingtip-to-wingtip. The object had three "white colored" lights
-- one at the apex, and one at each wingtip." The object
matched the jets air speed and seemed to move south more like a
glider than a powered aircraft. We watched for two minutes. My
girl friend and I are very familiar with the air traffic in the
Tioga Pass area and these were flying south and parallel to the
commercial air east/west corridor. Neither one of ! us have ever
seen an "aircraft" this large. Both of us are trained and
experienced professionals (Health Care and Photojournalism). We
are certain of our observations. Thanks to NUFORC.

CANADA MACLEAN'S MAGAZINE CARRIES UFO ARTICLE

ST. PAUL -- The August 13, 2001, issue carries a serious UFO
article titled, "Seriously is there a middle ground between
skepticism and belief?" by Susan McClelland. "To the first-time
tourist, St. Paul, Alberta., could easily pass for a set from
The X-Files. The billboard at the edge of the small farming
community about 200 km northeast of Edmonton welcomes visitors
to the world's first UFO landing pad -- a circular cement deck
attached to the chamber of commerce. The chamber itself looks
like a spaceship. Businesses with names like Mama's Flying
Saucer Pizza & Breakfast and the Galaxy Motel line the main
street. The biggest surprise, though, may be just how long it's
been since the townsfolk put out the alien welcome mat. "The
landing pad was built during Canada's Centennial," explains
Mayor John Trefanenko. "People wanted to create something that
would be recognized around the world. Over the years, we kept
building on that theme." And build they have. UFO fervor has
sp! awned an industry in the town of 5,000 that brings in some
30,000 visitors a year. Townsfolk have developed otherworldly
areas of interest. Fernand Belzil, for instance, a semiretired
cattle rancher, is one of Canada's few experts on a grisly type
of animal mutilation in which all the blood has been drained
and certain organs surgically removed."


CANADA UFO REPORTS

NOTTAWASAGA BAY ON LAKE HURON -- On August 4, 2001, at 8:00 PM
we saw a jet going from SW to SE and an object came up behind
it on exactly the same flight path, but much faster than the
jet. When it reached the jet it disappeared and the jet kept
going. It overtook the jets speed at double or triple the
speed. The object was bright and round with no noise. We live
on the shore north of Barrie, Ontario. Last year, my husband
and I were sitting on our deck in July, when we watched a jet
flying southeast at 6:50 PM. Another object came out of the
southwest on a diagonal flying much faster than the jet. It
crossed in front of the jet and the jet veered to avoid a
possible collision. We were afraid for the aircraft. I reported
this to the government, but we never given an explanation. The
object looked oblong or round and it was a metal material
because the setting sun made it look orange.

TORONTO -- Harry Harris writes, my friend and I were standing
in Pratt & Whitney Canada's Mississauga Company's parking lot
for our lunch break, when we looked up at something like a bird
passing overhead. I continued to focus on what eventually
seemed to be two spheres orbiting about each-other but moving
at a constant 25 MPH velocity and in a straight line. They were
like two tennis balls made out of frosted glass light-bulbs
traveling just above the power lines. I was a mile west of
Pearson International Airport at 12:30 PM. The object was
traveling west. Thanks to Brian HBCC UFO Research -
yogi@lakesweb.com http://www.geocities.com/hbccufo/home.html

UNITED KINGDOM CROP CIRCLES

ALTON BARNES --A huge crop circle was reported at Milk Hill,
Wiltshire on August 13, 2001, that inclues some 250 circles. So
far scientists have not attested to its authenticity.
http://www.cropcircleconnector.com/2001/MilkHill2/milkhill2001a
.html

GREECE BIG LIGHT IN THE SKY

PELOPONNESE -- The witness reports, "I saw a strange light in
the sky over Patra on August 8, 2001, at 21:30. First, I
thought it was a satellite, or fireworks from a boat. My house
is near the sea, but there was no boat! It wasn't an airplane
because it had such a big light and lasted about four seconds.
Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC

TURKISH PILOTS & UFO UPDATE

ISMIR ---Hakan Konac reports that Turkish Air Force pilot First
Lieutenant Ilker Dincer was flying a T-37 Training Jet (122nd
Squadron) on August 6, 2001, when he encountered a UFO at 12:30
hours near Candarli. Radio communication from the Pilot:
Dincer: "We are facing an unusual situation. We see an object
shaped like a cross between a cone and a disc, with support
legs, extremely luminous and high speed". Dincer reported the
incident both to the Ground Control and to the Combat
Operations Center (COC) and asks for radar confirmation. COC:
"Negative. We detect a high rate of maneuvering in your
aircraft but no detection of a second object around." Dincer
moves the T-37 closer towards the object and according to
Dincer, the object also moves closer towards the T-37.

Dincer: "The object is now coming closer to my wings, now its
behind us, Ill get it in front of myself, now its in front of
us, hey this is certainly going for a dog fight with us". The
object gyrated around the T-37 for thirty minutes. The object
and the T-37 maneuvered around each other during the encounter
until the object disappeared at an incredibly high speed. The
incident is under investigation by the Turkish Air Force who at
first claimed it was a weather balloon. Thanks to
konac@ada.net.tr9a4ag@ham2.cc.fer.hr (Giuliano 'Jimmy'
Marinkovic)

NEW ZEALAND FLAMING CIGAR SHAPED ORANGE COMET

WAIHEKE ISLAND, AUCKLAND -- Joe Trainor received this report
from Anthony Milas and his girlfriend who saw a gray cigar
shaped craft surrounded by trailing flame on July 13, 2001. The
sun was setting at 5:30 PM, and the object was two-thirds its
size. The flaming trail moved very slowly downwards and arcing
to the north. It was moving with the head of the trail leading.
After five minutes, it broke into two trails - a larger and a
smaller. The smaller one appeared to hover. The larger one was
observed for five minutes before it disappeared behind clouds
close to the horizon. The object slowed its descent moving to
the west. Anthony states, "Using my binoculars it was now
maintaining a steadier altitude and I clearly saw a gray cigar
shape, and the flaming orange/yellow was surrounding this and
trailing off it." The object disappeared behind a cloud near
Rangitoto Island, several kilometers away. My girl friend saw
something similar several weeks ago, but assumed it w! as an
artifact of the sunset. The sun had set and this cannot be
explained by natural phenomena. The object was observed for ten
minutes close to the horizon, and I assume it was very large,
far away, and traveling very fast. Thanks to Joe Trainor
Masinaigan and anthonym@internet.co.nz (Anthony Milas)
reports@ufoinfo.com

LARA JOHNSTONE TO TAKE ET HUNGER STRIKE TO WHITE HOUSE.

On August 18, 22 days into her hunger strike, Lara announced on
the live Ground Zero show (1080KOTK - Portland) that she will
take her Presidential hunger strike to Washington, D.C. and the
White House, as a daily reminder to President Bush. "I am
asking President Bush to fulfill his campaign promise, and make
public information on U.S. government involvement with
Extraterrestrial craft, technologies, and civilizations by
supporting the Disclosure witnesses who are ready to testify
before the U.S. Congress. Thanks to ECONEWS SERVICE:
http://www.ecologynews.com/cuenews38.html

STS-105 - UFO SIGHTED FROM SPACE SHUTTLE CAMERA

Researcher Jeff Challender informed me, he watched the STS-105
Discovery tape during the shuttle overnight mission on August
10/11.  In one segment, there is an object, similar to Storey
Musgrave's "space snake" moving about in daylight over the
Indian Ocean west of New Guinea. It appears to be going away
from the tail of the Shuttle Discovery, and is first seen
against the blackness of space, then in silhouette against the
bright clouds and sea. The camera zoomed in on it briefly, but
didn't focus, then the downlink was cut. A half hour later, at
orbital sunset, it was still out there in the distance until
they cut the feed again. This was no ice chip. Later on, during
a night pass over Texas and the Gulf, there was another of
those bright zips of an object passing quickly. It resembled
the strange bright zipping object seen in the Houston sequence
from STS-96 in June 1999. Now since the Perseid meteor shower
was at it's peak that night, it's possible that this streak! was
a meteor.

Later, Cliff Rowe was monitoring the NASA TV video from the
STS-105 on August 11, 2001, as it glided silently around earth.
He observed a large dark round blurry object at 10:20 AM
Central Time video taped by the shuttle camera. The object was
the size of a thumb placed over the object on the TV screen.
The Shuttle's camera caught the object on the lower left of
center with the background of white clouds below. T he DARK
SPOT seemed to be stationary at first appearing as a possible
spot on the camera lens. As the Shuttle moved and the camera
zoomed in on it, the object moved slowly to the southeast. The
Shuttle camera began to pan to get a closer look at the object,
and appears to have rapidly switched to several different
colored filters. Then the object disappeared into the clouds
below. The Shuttle transmissions then switched to the NASA
animation picture of the Shuttle. We had a monstrous size UFO
messing around our earth in the upper atmosphere and this isn't
the ! first. These things are all over the place and most people
are being shielded from this information. If you don't believe
me get the tape "What Do They Know" by Jeff Chandler (his
E-mail: jefchall@world.att.net). You will be able to see these
objects from raw NASA data transmissions that have been caught
on tape by Jeff. You will be able to tell the difference
between ice crystals and UFOs passing by. If the proof on this
tape doesn't convince you, nothing will. Thanks to Cliff Rowe
husa@ev1.net and Jefchall@worldnet.att.net (Jeff Challender

Editor's Note: Unidentified Flying Objects with regularly
flashing lights are frequently videotaped in space by the
Shuttle's cameras. It is certainly possible that these UFOs are
ours and that classified black hypersonic craft are being
covered up by unclassified programs such as the canceled X-30
National Aerospaceplane project in 1994. It seems reasonable
that a reconnaissance aircraft was built to follow on to the
SR-71 Black Bird. Most likely a black-world hypersonic aircraft
has been built and is now flying. Jeff and Cliff may be seeing
these craft or are they real UFOs?

PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER ARTICLE -- I wish to thank Mike Vitez for
writing an excellent article about me for the Sunday August 19,
2001, Newspaper. The article was well written and contained a
balanced view of my interest in UFOs.

LARGEST UFO CD-ROM IN EXISTENCE The Black Vault has unveiled
thousands of documents relating to the UFO phenomenon. Some,
have never been published in electronic form, nor have other
seen even the light of day. Declassified in recent years, this
CD holds over 5,000 pages of material, covering the past
half-century of government involvement in the UFO field of
research. From the CIA recently declassified documents to the
FBI. From the NSA to the DIA, this CD has a fantastic archive,
ready to browse with high-resolution scans. Easily read and
easily navigated, this research tool will be used for years to
come! To order, call toll free, (866) 828-2858 or outside the
continental US, (818) 886-0131. Or order online today,
http://www.blackvaultstore.com

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL for $30 per year by
contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended you for
membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2001 by George A.
Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the
files on their Web Sites provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue
that the item appeared. These reports and comments are not
necessarily the official MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to
keep your name, address, or story confidential. Caution, most of
these are initial reports and require further investigation.












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              UFO Conference - New Jersey 10-6/7-01 - Addendum

From: Tom Benson <sparkle@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 20:14:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:47:04 -0400
Subject: UFO Conference - New Jersey 10-6/7-01 - Addendum


Dear List:

I didn't include the following speaker for the UFO Con to my
previous post, because I did not have the necessary bio put
together. It is the one and only Jim Moseley, who has appeared
over the years, since the 1950's on countless radio and
television shows and lectured at UFO conferences throughout the
United States.

In the late 1960's and early 11970's, he lectured as an expert
on UFOs to over one hundred colleges around the country.
Beginning in 1954, Jim published a semi-professional magazine
called Saucer News, which reached a peak subscription
circulation of almost 10,000.

Currently, Jim publishes a (free) UFO "trade journal", mainly of
interest to a few hundred people who make up the "hard core" of
flying saucer buffs. Humor and UFO-related gossip are the main
characteristics of this non-scheduled newsletter, which is
called "Saucer Smear". This newsletter takes an attitude! of
benign skeptism toward the more extreme UFO beliefs, and
generally reflects the various ways in which Moseley has
mellowed in his thinking over the years.

To find out just what that his thinking is, one would have to
become a "non-subscriber" to "Saucer Smear". There are no
subscribers, but donations are warmly welcomed.

Jim is author of his forthcoming memoirs, 'Shockingly Close To
The Truth'. I do not know what the title of Jim's talk for the
Con will be, but whatever it is, it will be great.


Tom Benson



--- Tom Benson --- sparkle@earthlink.net









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              Mars Online Gazette: A Mystery At Sagan Memorial

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 06:18:30 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:52:48 -0400
Subject: Mars Online Gazette: A Mystery At Sagan Memorial

The Electric Warrior takes a look at the Pathfinder
"sphinx"...


------------------------------------------------------------
Mars Online Gazette : August 23, 2001
http://www.electricwarrior.com/mol/MarsOnlineGazette.htm

Leading-Edge Mars Graphics and Commentary sponsored by
The Cydonian Imperative & The Electric Warrior

------------------------------------------------------------
A MYSTERY AT SAGAN MEMORIAL STATION

http://www.electricwarrior.com/mol/ewMol10.jpg

Is there a monument resembling an ancient Egyptian sphinx a
short distance away from NASA's Mars Pathfinder lander? Mac
Tonnies doesn't think so, but says the feature in question is
vague enough to entice--and confuse.

'Mars Online Gazette' presents a rebuttal to the Martian Sphinx,
featuring Tonnies' online assessment from The Cydonian
Imperative, together with images and commentary from The
Electric Warrior Website.

------------------------------------------------------------
! The Cydonian Imperative
by Mac Tonnies
July 31, 2001 - Ares Vallis

Sagan Memorial Station Revisited

When the Mars Pathfinder touched down on Mars, much online
speculation centered on the varied shapes of the rocks littering
the landing site. Many claimed to see structured, artificial
objects. While there was--and is--undoubtedly a lot to look at
in the Pathfinder panoramas, it's my opinion that nothing
visible in the images returned to Earth betrays artificial
origin.

That's not to say that we are looking at purely geological
debris. Geologist Ron Nicks has made an interesting, if
controversial, case for an artificial origin for the "Twin
Peaks" looming on the Martian horizon. His unusual contention is
bolstered, in my opinion, by the strikingly uniform square base
of the otherwise amorphic North Knob a few miles away.

http://www.electricwarrior.com/mol/ewNorthKnob.jpg

["North Knob" as seen from the Mars Global Surveyor. Note
unusual square base.]

In a recent post on The Enterprise Mission, Mike Bara and
Richard Hoagland return to the terrain surrounding Sagan
Memorial Station and identify--not so tentatively--a Martian
"sphinx," supposedly with visible headdress, paws, and crouching
body similar if not identical to the Great Sphinx in Egypt.

I will not attempt to conceal my bias: I don't think there's an
artificial sphinx a short distance away from the Pathfinder
craft. However, the feature in question is vague enough to
entice-- and confuse. If it really is a sphinx eternally
guarding the eroded Twin Peaks, what is it doing on a floodplain
where, as The Enterprise Mission's own Nicks asserts, the
hypothetical "casing" on the right-hand "pyramid" was washed
away by torrential Martian flows?

http://www.electricwarrior.com/mol/ewMarsSphinx.jpg

[The alleged "sphinx" seen before the weathered bulk of a
suspected "ruined arcology."]

If the "sphinx" had been constructed prior to the floods that
eroded the Twin Peaks and carpeted the foreground in rocky
debris (Pathfinder's "Rock Garden"), why is it still intact? A
more likely explanation may be that the "sphinx" is actually a
relatively small remnant of a much larger natural feature that
succumbed to erosion along with the blunted peaks on the
horizon.

My main complaint with the article by Bara/Hoagland is the
assertion that the alleged "sphinx" is facing east (like its
Giza counterpart). In order to support the notion that the
"sphinx" is aligned in a terrestrial manner, the article
rationalizes away the plainly visible length of the "sphinx" as
being ruined "temples" (!). Clearly, if the Pathfinder "sphinx"
is actually an analog of the Great Sphinx in Egypt (or the other
way around...), one must be prepared to address its shape, as
well as its possible alignment, with its earthly cousin.

Interestingly enough, the Great Sphinx in Egypt is a weirdly
"stretched"-looking work of art (as seen in the comparison
image).

http://www.electricwarrior.com/mol/ewSphinxComparison.jpg

[The Great Sphinx (Above) TEM Sphinx (Below)]

Compare the elongated form above to that of the Bara/Hoagland's
Martian "sphinx," noting that the proposed "head" is on the
right.

There doesn't seem to be any way to align the "sphinx" in any
way other than how it appears on the Pathfinder photo. Hoagland/
Bara's suggestion that the "sphinx" is pointing east requires a
significant imaginative leap that I am unwilling and unable to
make. Moreover, attributing the unwanted bulk of the Martian
landform to additional structures (when there is no
differentiation to justify concluding that it is more than one
formation) is completely ad hoc and flies in the face of
scientific methodology.

Obviously, the hypothesized Egyptian connection only makes sense
if the "sphinx" is pointing east. Unfortunately, the best
available data suggest that the "sphinx"--whatever it may prove
to be--is aligned north-south, a finding at odds with presumed
Egyptian parallels.

The Pathfinder site reveals a remarkable diversity of forms in
its rocks, but nothing that can be credibly cited as evidence of
intelligent design. We may in fact be looking at artificial
debris when we examine the Pathfinder panoramas. However, we
will not likely know this until we are able to explore the
weirdly geometric "North Knob" and beckoning Twin Peaks
firsthand.

------------------------------------------------------------
! The Electric Warrior
Mars Online Gazette
August 23, 2001 - Ares Vallis

IN THE MIDDLE GROUND

Is there a Martian sphinx crouching right in front of the South
Twin Peak? We need to take a closer look at some NASA images.

To begin with, it isn't clear whether the object in question is
as far away as the peak, which is known to be about one
kilometer from the lander. What appears to be a very large
sphinx, near the peak, might be a large rock, closer to the
lander. It's hard to tell, because in the photograph, neither
the peak or the "sphinx" are in sharp focus.

The "sphinx" appears to be located beyond a ridge, which
obscures the bottom portion of the object from view. An
accompanying image illustrates the proposed ridge line, in red.
If this line is accurate, then the left paw of the sphinx is
actually a rock on the ridge line, and detached from the main
body of the "sphinx", which lies somewhere beyond that.

http://www.electricwarrior.com/mol/ewSphinxRidgeLine.jpg

[The controversial anomaly could be a large rock behind a ridge.]

The right paw of the "sphinx" doesn't appear to exist, other
than being a highlight, similar to other surface highlights in
the photograph.

So, the "sphinx" may very well be a large rock or boulder, in
the middle ground between the peak and Pathfinder's famous "Rock
Garden".

A stereoscopic image which accompanies this article makes this
easier to see. (Although you may have trouble looking at it, if
you never viewed one before. Try making the two images line up,
by relaxing your eyes.)

http://www.electricwarrior.com/mol/ewMarsSphinxStereo.jpg

[The controversial anomaly is probably not too far from the
lander.]

VIEW FROM THE TOP

If a Martian sphinx is located in the vicinity of the South Twin
Peak, and the anomaly is comparable in size to its Earthy
counterpart in Giza, then it's reasonable to expect that the
feature would appear in an image of the Sagan Memorial Station
vicinity, captured by the Mars Orbital Camera (MOC).

http://www.electricwarrior.com/mol/ewTwinPeaks.jpg

[The controversial anomaly is too small to be imaged by MOC.]

The Great Sphinx in Egypt is 73 meters long. The accompanying
MOC image (SP125603) was captured at a resolution of about 3
meters per pixel. Broadly speaking, that's a lot of pixels
(about 24), and we'd expect to see something to the right of the
lower peak in this MOC image. But, there doesn't appear to be
anything in the image that even loosely corresponds to the
proposed sphinx, as viewed by Pathfinder.

However, if the "sphinx" is really a large rock not too far from
the lander, then it might be too small to be imaged by MOC. This
is consistent with what is seen, or rather, what can't be seen
in the photograph looking down from the MGS spacecraft orbiting
Mars.

An image map of the area shows Twin Peaks, North Knob, Big
Crater and the approximate location of the Pathfinder lander.
Where's the Martian sphinx?

http://www.electricwarrior.com/img/ewPathfinderVicinity.jpg

[Sagan Memorial Station Vicinity.]

Martian Floodplain

Could the anomalous Martian sphinx really be a large boulder
located in a floodplain, and yet not appear to be highly water
eroded?

In 1995, Mars Pathfinder project scientists visited an area in
the Pacific Northwest, which they believed to be very similar to
the Ares Vallis region on Mars. One of the numerous boulders
they saw in the Channeled Scabland was as big as a house!

The massive catastrophic floods believed to have shaped the Ares
Vallis channel on Mars could easily account for the presence of
a giant boulder, right where the "sphinx" can be seen. The
titanic forces that moved a boulder of that size wouldn't
necessarily have time to make it appear smoothly eroded.

An accompanying image, based on data from the Mars Orbiter Laser
Altimeter (MOLA) shows the approximate location of the
Pathfinder lander. Bottom left is the fan-out from the Ares
Vallis channel.

http://www.electricwarrior.com/img/ewMarsPathfinderMOLA.jpg

[Sagan Memorial Station MOLA]

------------------------------------------------------------
RELATED RESOURCES
Related Resources

Mars Pathfinder Landing Site ... A Sphinx Revisited?
The Enterprise Mission
http://www.enterprisemission.com/Path-sphinx.htm

Mars Pathfinder Landing Site (MOC SP125603)
Malin Space Science Systems
http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/ab1_m04/images/SP125603.html

Scabland Mars Pathfinder Report
Arizona Mars K-12 Education Program
http://emma.la.asu.edu/PATHFINDER/SCABLANDS/report_10_8_95.html

------------------------------------------------------------
THE ELECTRIC WARRIOR
August 23, 2001
Silicon Valley, CA

------------------------------------------------------------
Web developers, the URL address for this content is:

http://www.electricwarrior.com/mol/MarsOnlineGazette.htm

Permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this
article or any portion thereof.

The Cydonian Imperative
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html

The Electric Warrior Website.
http://www.electricwarrior.com/

eWarrior@electricwarrior.com



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                                 Ursa Major

From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson@alienjigsaw.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 16:50:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:21:03 -0400
Subject: Ursa Major


 From 'Filer's Files' and 'The Alien Jigsaw'

NEW PLANETARY SYSTEM

University of California at Berkeley announced that astronomers
have discovered a planetary system with two giant planets
centered on a star that is similar to our sun in chemical
composition. The findings indicate smaller planets similar to
Earth may be located in orbits inside these giant planets. The
astronomers believe many stars may have solar systems similar to
our own. Assuming the inner planets actually exist they are
likely to have water and life may flourish there. The newly
found solar system is orbiting Ursae Majoris only 45 light years
away, about 200 trillion miles from Earth. "Of all the solar
systems that have been found, this is the one that looks the
most like our own," said Debra Fischer, an astronomer. "Nothing
else is even close."

Regarding the above discovery - Could there be a relationship
to the following?


 From 'The Alien Jigsaw Researcher's Supplement':

"July 1993: We go on the deck. I ask him [the Being] 'Are you
from the Pleiades?'

The Being adamantly replies, 'NO.'

I ask him where he is from. We look in the sky to see the Big
Dipper. He says, 'See the Ursa Major?'

I reply, 'Yes.'

The Being then tells me,

'The star cluster to the right and below. The one with the
triangle to the left and the little stars in between... we're
from that one. The fourth planet from our sun.'

I asked him what his planet is like. He said sadly,

'I don't know, I've never been there. I was born on our ship.'

Erik Wilson, July 1993, Portland, Oregon 'The Alien Jigsaw
Researcher's Supplement' (c) 1994.


http://www.alienjigsaw.com








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              Cydonian Imperative - 08-24-01 - Crop Formations

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 22:48:38 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:24:21 -0400
Subject: Cydonian Imperative - 08-24-01 - Crop Formations

The Cydonian Imperative
8-24-01

Crop Formations Provoke Mars Speculation
by Mac Tonnies

See:

http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html


[image]

Elaborate crop glyph based on 1974 SETI broadcast.

In 1974, SETI scientists transmitted a digital image into deep
space in the hopes of it eventually being intercepted and
decyphered by extraterrestrials. In a surreal turn of events,
we've received a most unlikely "response" in the form of the
same message returned to us--not in the form of modulated radio
waves, but as an intricate English crop formation virtually next
door to a radio observatory.

(A brief editorial note: I am convinced that some crop circles
are legitimate scientific mysteries. The new SETI glyph,
conveniently positioned next to a radio telescope, might very
well prove to be the work of some pranksters with a subversive
sense of humor. On the other hand, if this is an actual
communication with some other intelligence, then I relish the
irony of the medium "they" chose to use--which may be the most
important message imparted by this new enigma.)

[image]

Signal or noise? The original 1974 SETI transmission is shown on
the right while the alleged "alien" response is on the left.
Note deviations.

The SETI-inspired crop glyph boasts some tantalizing changes
from the original version. Where a schematic human figure is
encoded on the original transmission, unknown artists have
inserted a small-bodied, big-headed figure that looks very much
like an approximation of the "grays" of close-encounter lore.
And where terrestrial scientists had placed a crude portrayal of
our solar system, the "aliens" have done the same: the crop
glyph features nine planets, one star, and three inhabited
worlds (one of which is ringed by four enigmatic "pixels" that
may represent moons or some unguessed phenomenon).

Most provocatively, the bottom of the original SETI message
featured a rough diagram of the radio dish in Arecibo, Puerto
Rico that transmitted the message to the stars. The new version
excludes any recognizable dish, but shows a simplified version
of an intricate crop glyph that appeared almost exactly one year
ago in the same location. (Does the simplified glyph represent a
technology analogous to the radio telescope in Arecibo...?)

[image]

Mysterious crop face recalls the shadowy-eyed Face on Mars seen
by Viking.

But that's not all. Crop-watchers are also treated to an
impressive "dot matrix" potrait of a shadowy human face that
recalls, at least to Richard Hoagland, the simian western side
of the Face on Mars. Whether it was made by aliens or not, the
workmanship evidenced by the "Crop Face" is remarkable, and it
stands as the first such piece of art to grace England's fields
since the crop circle phenomenon came to worldwide attention in
the early 1990s.

I don't know what, if anything, the SETI glyph has to do with
the interesting "face" glyph. One possibility is that we're
being offered evidence that the human race was genetically
engineered by "gray" aliens who visited Mars in the remote past.
A more likely scenario, in my opinion, is that we are being
treated to an ambitious and--given the subtleties of the SETI
"reply"-- scientifically literate hoax.

If, however, this is "real," then it's of obviously explosive
importance. Perhaps laboratory testing of the affected crops
will reveal magnetic or chemical anomalies indicating a nonhuman
agent.

end









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                          Secrecy News -- 08/24/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@igc.org>
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 08:56:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:26:46 -0400
Subject:  Secrecy News -- 08/24/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
August 24, 2001

**      OPPOSITION TO ANTI-LEAK MEASURE BUILDS
**      NOGUN-RI DOCUMENTS REVIVE KOREA CONTROVERSY


OPPOSITION TO ANTI-LEAK MEASURE BUILDS

In its lead editorial today, the Washington Post today
eloquently argued against the pending legislation that would
make the unauthorized disclosure of classified information a
felony.

"One trouble with creating a blanket criminalization of
classified leaks is that it gives the executive branch almost
unchecked authority to remove information from public
discussion," the Post editors wrote. "Such unchecked power would
be dangerous even if overclassification weren't rampant." See
the Post editorial entitled "No More Secrecy Bills" here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/opinion/A54690-2001Aug23.html

Meanwhile, the St. Petersburg Times in St. Petersburg, Florida
today came out in vigorous opposition to the anti-leak proposal.
Significantly, both Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Bob
Graham and House Intelligence Committee Chairman Porter Goss are
from Florida.

"If Graham really believes government needs to be held
accountable for its actions, he should help bury this
legislation," the St. Petersburg Times editors proclaimed. See:

http://www.sptimes.com/News/082401/Opinion/Classified_silencing.shtml

In another new wrinkle, House Judiciary Committee Chairman James
Sensenbrenner sent a letter to the House Intelligence Committee
last week preemptively insisting on his Committee's authority to
consider any legislation on criminalizing leaks before it is
adopted.

"I wanted to take this opportunity to assert that the House
Committee on the Judiciary would seek immediate referral of any
legislation that incorporates criminal provisions addressing the
unauthorized disclosure of classified information," wrote
Chairman Sensenbrenner.

Though he did not categorically state opposition to the
legislation, Sensenbrenner's action should tend to slow its
momentum and complicate its passage.

Further, Chairman Sensenbrenner wrote, "it is my strong
preference that any anti-leaks legislation be considered
separate and apart from general authorization bills." Such a
step would take the measure off the fast track that the
Intelligence Authorization Act is on and force Congress to
consider the legislation on its slender merits.

See Chairman Sensenbrenner's August 13 letter here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/08/sensen.html


NOGUN-RI DOCUMENTS REVIVE KOREA CONTROVERSY

Publication of declassified U.S. government documents from the
Korean War has renewed controversy in Korea over U.S. Air Force
aerial attacks near the village of Nogun-ri in 1950, which led
to the deaths of around 100 civilians.

The official U.S. report on the Nogun-ri case earlier this year
was inconclusive about whether the attacks had taken place. It
stated: "No U.S. Air Force veteran that the U.S. Review Team
interviewed participated in, or had any knowledge of anyone
participating in, the strafing of civilians in the vicinity
of.No Gun Ri in late July 1950.... Strafing may have occurred
near Nogun-ri the last week of July 1950 and could have injured
or killed Korean civilians but [...] any such air strikes were
not deliberate attacks on Korean civilians."

Yet the newly published documents refer plainly to strafing of
refugees. They were made widely available last week on the web
site of Henry Holt Publishers, which will soon publish "The
Bridge at No Gun Ri," a book on the Nogun-ri case written by the
Associated Press team who first reported in 1999 that American
troops had killed civilians in the Korean War. See:

http://www.henryholt.com/nogunri/documents.htm

The new disclosures created a stir in Korea. The Korea Herald in
Seoul, which first reported on the matter August 21, also
indicated that Nogun-ri survivors will file suit against U.S.
agencies next week under the Freedom of Information Act,
alleging non-compliance with the Act's requirements. In
addition, the Committee for Unveiling Truth about the Nogun-ri
Massacre will reportedly seek a congressional hearing on their
concerns.

Questions about the strafing of refugees near Nogun-ri were
previously discussed at a January 11, 2001 Pentagon press
briefing on the incident. See:

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jan2001/t01112001_t111cohe.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:
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Secrecy News is archived at:
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_______________________
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Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web: www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
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                         Slaves To Secrets And Lies

From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
Date: 24 Aug 2001 09:54:35 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:30:00 -0400
Subject: Slaves To Secrets And Lies


Slaves to Secrets and Lies
by
Lara Johnstone


A slave is one who waits for someone else to free him.
                            -- Rosellen Brown

We are all slaves to the secrets that imprison us, whether they
be secrets withheld from us by employers, friends, governments
or our own fear to admit to something we did, think, feel or
know.

The more secrets I hide from, avoid seeing, deny exist, pretend
I don't know about, blame someone else for, or lie about to
protect my ego or reputation -- the more I am a slave to my own
secrets and lies!

I choose to be free from my own secrets and lies, therefore I
choose to tell the truth.

I choose to be free from the secrets, lies, deception, avoidance
and denial that current governments and corporations keep from
the people, therefore when whistleblowers or truth-tellers come
forward from such secret organizations, I choose to support them
in telling their truth.

When 99+ identified present or former military, intelligence,
corporate, aviator, flight control, law enforcement officers,
scientists and other witnesses willingly step forward to be
subpoeanaed to testify at Congressional Hearings, about secrets
and lies that have been withheld from the entire planet, and
affect all beings in space, I THINK THAT IS IMPORTANT!

I think it is important enough to go on a hungerstrike to show
how important I think it is. To show how much I want to hear the
truth!

As Malcolm X said: I'm for truth, no matter who tells it. I'm
for justice, no matter who it is for or against. I'm a human
being first and foremost, and as such I am for whoever and
whatever benefits humanity as a whole.

I want the Disclosure Project witnesses to testify. Do you?

Frederick Douglass once said:

Power never concedes anything without a struggle.

Steve Biko once said:

The most potent weapon in the hands of the oppressor, is the
mind of the oppressed

I imagine if we wish to hear the truth, the first oppressors we
are going to have to face and struggle against are ourselves.
How we have allowed our minds to be deceived, lied to and
manipulated. Asking others to be prepared to tell the truth
while we hide, deceive, manipulate and lie is hypocrisy.

As Pieter Dirk Uys says: Hypocrisy is the vaseline of political
intercourse.

Could it be that we are so disillusioned with the current
'hypocritical' political system of deception, pretense, lies and
deceit, is - because we too are lieing, deceiving, and denying
the truth to ourselves, and not prepared to stand up in public
and demand the truth, irrespective of the consequences?

One brave elected official hasn't got time for hypocrisy,
secrets and lies on this issue.

Minnesota Governor Jesse Ventura: The federal government should
disclose whatever it knows about aliens or unidentified flying
objects to the public. . .That's called national security.
People in government think you can't handle it and you need to
be protected from it. [August 10, 2001]

Governor Ventura, I heartily agree!

Thank you!


Lara Johnstone









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             Cydonian Imperative: 08-25-01 - SETI Glyph Analysed

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 22:23:04 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:34:32 -0400
Subject: Cydonian Imperative: 08-25-01 - SETI Glyph Analysed


The Cydonian Imperative
8-25-01

Detail from "SETI" Glyph Analyzed
by Mac Tonnies

In the SETI crop glyph discussed in the previous article, the
portion of the code illustrating the "aliens'" presumed home
solar system is shown (see graphic below).

[image]

Corresponding with the schematic of our own solar system
transmitted in 1974, the graphic reveals a star at the far
right, with planets extending to the image's left. Like our
solar system, there are nine planets and one star, prompting
Richard Hoagland, in private correspondence, to volunteer that
this might be a representation of our own solar neighborhood.
The difference, obviously, is that the planets corresponding
with Earth, Mars, and Jupiter are elevated, denoting habitation.
(In the original transmission, the third planet from the
sun--Earth--is elevated, depicting the signal's planet of
origin.)

One of the first oddities that caught my eye was the peculiar
way the object equivalent to "Jupiter" was depicted by four
connected pixels. Could this represent a work of megasacle
engineering, or some other unknown phenomenon? Chris Joseph, who
painstakingly rendered the SETI glyph into digital format,
offered the possibility that the four pixels were meant to
represent inhabited moons--an attractive hypothesis that seemed
to make sense framed in Hoagland's model.

The four pixels could represent the four primary Jovian
satellites: Io, Europa, Ganymede and Callisto. Maybe the "alien"
message (assuming, as always, that it might be authentic) isn't
that "alien" after all, but merely a forecast of our own future
as we colonize space. But why, then, would the "Jupiter pixel"
remain "blank"? All of the other schematic planets appear as
"filled in" bits of data. If the communicator wanted to tell us
that the Jupiter system was inhabited, this could be more
accurately conveyed by filling in the "hollow" center left by
the four ambiguous pixels thought to represent moons.

A careful look at the left portion of the solar system schematic
reveals another telling detail: the "Neptune" equivalent is
missing a pixel compared to the original Arecibo transmission,
indicating that it is smaller than the gas giant known to
terrestrial astronomers. Unless this is a mistake on behalf of
the communicator (human or alien), then this certainly seems to
exclude our solar system as the star system represented in the
glyph.

As for the four-pixel arrangement where Jupiter might be
expected: perhaps we're seeing a necessarily simplified
rendering of a Dyson sphere. I find this notion attractive on a
speculative level, since the four-pixel "ring" occurs on the far
edge of the star system's "zone of habitability"; as the
farthest inhabited planet from its parent star, its population
might desire to harvest as much sunlight as possible, and
something like an insulating "shell" might be highly desirable.

[image]

[image]

Above is a close-up of the being representing the apparent alien
race. As discussed in my previous article, I think this is an
approximation of a "gray" alien of the sort popularized by books
and other media based on the alien abduction phenomenon
(whatever "alien abduction" may ultimately prove to be). Below
it is a typical example of a "gray," universally described as a
being with a large head, large eyes and frail, spindly body (all
traits clearly discernable in the SETI crop glyph).

(Note: The crop circle phenomenon is not my area of expertise by
any means, and for that reason it is generally not discussed in
the pages of The Cydonian Imperative. However, the "SETI" glyphs
demand to be addressed. It's my hope that even if the formations
in question are merely clever hoaxes, we will have learned
something about our understanding of life and intelligence in
the cosmos and here on Earth.)

end









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                          Secrecy News -- 08/27/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@igc.org>
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:32:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 17:38:10 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/27/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
August 27, 2001


**      MANY MILLIONS COULD BE SUBJECT TO ANTI-LEAK LAW
**      ANOTHER ESPIONAGE CASE


MANY MILLIONS COULD BE SUBJECT TO ANTI-LEAK LAW

The pending proposal to make unauthorized disclosures of
classified information a felony would apply not only to the
roughly three million persons who currently hold security
clearances for access to classified information. It could also
affect perhaps ten million or more American veterans and
retirees who formerly held such clearances.

This point was made by former intelligence analyst Allen Thomson
in several usenet discussion groups recently, spurring some
vigorous debate.

Mr. Thomson cited the language of the proposed law, which is
broadly written so as to encompass everyone who has ever had
authorized access to classified information. It would be binding
upon anyone who is:

"...an officer or employee of the United States, a former or
retired officer or employee of the United States, any other
person with authorized access to classified information, or any
other person formerly with authorized access to classified
information...."

How many living Americans have ever had authorized access to
classified information? Ten million, in round numbers? "It could
be much more," said an Administration security official. "It
could be less. Nobody keeps those numbers."

The official noted that until ten or fifteen years ago, the Air
Force and possibly other military services used to clear all of
their members. Since that time, the clearance process has
become somewhat more discriminating, he said.

The official indicated further that although the number of
Americans who were formerly authorized for access to classified
information might be very large indeed, that does not mean that
all of them actually had such access. "The overwhelming majority
have nothing to leak."

But given the capricious nature of the classification process
and the fact that authorization alone -- not actual access --
creates the vulnerability, the anti-leak proposal, with its
penalty of up to three years in jail, is bound to give pause to
those millions of veterans and former government employees who
have possessed a clearance, even if it was fifty years ago.

A report in the St. Petersburg Times today says that Senate
Intelligence Committee Chairman is seeking a compromise position
on the anti-leak proposal. "Even though he supported Shelby's
bill last year, Graham is looking for ways to satisfy the
concerns of the media." See "Graham is referee in battle
between secrets and leaks" by Sara Fritz:


http://www.sptimes.com/News/082701/Worldandnation/Graham_is_referee_in_.shtml

Four news organizations asked the Senate Intelligence Committee
to defer the scheduled September 5 hearing to allow time for
further deliberation, the Washington Post reported on August 25.
See:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59162-2001Aug24.html

But the proposed legislation may be so inherently flawed as to
be beyond compromise.

"By prohibiting disclosure of anything that the executive branch
says is 'classified,' the anti-leak measure would delegate to
the executive branch the power both to define a crime and to
prosecute it." See "Anti-leak Proposal Threatens Good
Government" by Steven Aftergood from the August 27 Washington
Times reprinted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/08/wt082701.html


ANOTHER ESPIONAGE CASE

The criminal complaint and supporting affidavit against Brian P.
Regan, the National Reconnaissance Office contractor employee
who was arrested last week on suspicion of espionage, may be
found here in an html version:

http://www.fas.org/irp/ops/ci/regan_complaint.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:

  subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:

  http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web: www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691









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                   Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Hale

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 17:10:09 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 17:41:57 -0400
Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Hale


 >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released
 >Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:34:42 +0100

 >Despite Georgina's witterings, we have offered her the space to
 >put her side of the story on our site and she has accepted.
 >Once, of course it's been sold to you, along with the tea towel,
 >personalised handbag, and video, via UFO Magazine!

 >Buy now whilst belief lasts!

Andy,

I take it you objected to your book (big black cats) being
reviewed in last months issue of UFO magazine, considering your
above post. Sorry if I offended any Big Black Cat Believers!


Roy..








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                      Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements

From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:19:33 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 17:53:31 -0400
Subject: Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements


Pilgrims,

Georgina Bruni has recently 'had a go' at our website using Nick
Pope as ammunition for her claim that we have "misinterpreted"
the MOD file.

Listers who would like to hear Pope on Rendlesham, from the
author's mouth should hop on over to:

www.flyingsaucery.com

where we have posted the relevant sections from a recent
interview with Nick.

That way, you make your own mind up on what Nick says about
Rendlesham.

You may also like to click on:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4246130,00.html

Where there is an on line article, taken from today's Guardian
newspaper, dealing with Dave Clarke's discovery and analysis of
the MOD Rendlesham files.


Happy Trails

Andy







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                          Filer's Files #35 - 2001

From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:33:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 18:12:07 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #35 - 2001


UFOs are reported in Maine, Massachusetts, New Jersey,
Pennsylvania, Maryland, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Oklahoma,
California, Washington, and Australia.

ENGLAND ALIEN FACE CROP CIRCLE INDICATES CONTACT?

CHILBOLTON RADIO TELESCOPE -- Two new incredible Crop Circle
pictograms or glyphs appeared in Southsea, Hampshire next to
the radio telescope gives evidence of extraterrestrial contact.
The first glyph appeared on Tuesday,August 14, 2001, that shows
a framed alien face with large dark eyes and a small mouth.
According to an employee at the Chilbolton Observatory on
Monday, August 20th, a second glyph appeared of a framed
complicated binary code that seems to a reply to a message
broadcast from the Arecibo Radio Telescope in Puerto Rico on
November 16, 1974. Astronomer Frank Drake was in charge and
with Carl Sagan sent a strong signal into space towards M-13 a
star system 25,000 light years away. That radio signal
depicted a stick drawing of a human and the Earth's location in
the solar system.

The makers of the glyphs would like us to believe that
extraterrestrials intercepted the signal and returned it to the
wrong radio telescope not as a radio signal, but as a glyph
drawing in the wheat. The reply glyph informs us that the
aliens have large heads in comparison to their smaller bodies,
gives their DNA, and that they apparently live on Mars and
Jupiter if you assume they are in our solar system. The glyphs
are composed of hundreds of little cells acting as pixels in
the wheat. Radio show host Whitley Strieber claims he was
warned the glyphs were coming and there are rumors it is part
of a TV show. I would recommend we withhold judgment until
scientists can closely examine the glyphs to determine how they
were made. See:

www.cropcircleconnector.com/http://www.earthfiles.com/earth271.htm

A research biologist writes, "Many people have been speculating
whether the new Arecibo crop pictogram in Chilbolton is a hoax
or real? The purpose of this message is: (a) to explain why
the DNA part of that pictogram was altered from Sagan's
original; and (b) to suggest a return message. The central
part of the Chilbolton pictogram shows that a DNA double helix
as found on Earth, with 10 base pairs per turn, has been
replaced on one side by a novel single-stranded helix with just
6 bases per turn. I had to work hard for several days, to
discover that the single-stranded helix with 6 bases per turn
refers to 2', 5'-linked RNA or DNA, as opposed to the normal
3', 5' variety. This is known to hardly any molecular
biologist, and I found out only by making an accurate model.
Since the chemical formula of the 6-base helix remains the same
as before, I guessed that any difference might be one of
stereochemistry: change the sugar-phosphate connection. A tiny
single-digit change in the central "rod" of that pictogram,
located between the two nucleic acid strands, may confirm such
a change in stereochemistry once it is mapped accurately.

In any case, there is no other plausible way of constructing a
6-fold helix as indicated. (a) "Association of 2', 5'
ligoribonucleotides," Nucleic Acids Research 1992, vol. 20, pp.
1685-1690. This paper shows that 2', 5'-linked RNA will form
double helices, but prefers to remain single stranded. (b)
"Synthesis and biological activities of 2', 5'-oligoadenylate,"
Nucleic Acids Research 1995, vol. 23, pp. 3989-3994. This
paper explores the use of 2', 5' RNA as an antiviral drug; it
seems we have been exposed to such strange molecules in the
past, and have evolved an interferon-RNAase L system against
them. (c) "2', 5' linked deoxyribonucleosides: thermal
stability", Nucleic Acids Research 1997, vol. 25, pp.
3310-3317. This paper shows that 2', 5' DNA will form a double
helix with RNA but not DNA; hence any 2', 5' infectious agents
would not be detectable by PCR.

Recall that origin-of-life experiments in the 1980's by Leslie
Orgel, found that RNA would often polymerize into two different
forms, namely 2', 5 versus 3', 5'; and it was a mystery to
chemical evolutionists why 3', 5' was favored on Earth. Note
that many abductees remain ill with chronic fatigue, which
generally includes a high level of RNAase L; just as if their
immune systems have been activated by contact with 2', 5' RNA.
The clear implication is that 2', 5' RNA may represent an
alternative system of genetic coding to 3',5' RNA or DNA as
found on Earth; and that the makers of the Chilbolton pictogram
wished us to understand that fact. Whether a secret band of
elite scientists could hoax such a result seems doubtful; since
2', 5' nucleic acids are mentioned rarely in the literature,
and nowhere does it say that they form a single-stranded helix
with 6 bases per turn. That I found only recently, by
painstakingly constructing an accurate model.

If the message is authentic, one must wonder whether it was
sent by radio some time ago, yet not made public? Finally,
George let me suggest a "return message" that could open
communication rapidly. I suggest that you ask people all
around the world to write the following in deserts, beaches,
forests, crops, and on all frequencies of amateur radio: "2',
5' --- 6 ............ 3', 5' --- 10  " Or simply "6 /10" if
they are lazy. But the full message is better. Thanks to Red
Setter.

US SPACE WEAPONS VS METEORS

The Bush Administration may have several reasons for placing
weapons into space. The US is concerned that hostile regimes
in North Korea, Iran, Iraq, Libya, and Syria are working to
produce missiles that can carry deadly chemical, biological, or
nuclear warheads. There is also a potential threat from Russia
and China. North Korea's test of the Taepo Dong 1 missile, and
Iran's development on the Sha-hab 3 missile indicate attacks
could come sooner than anyone thinks. Saddam Hussein did not
shrink from attacking Israel with missiles. It is prudent to
prepare to defend the US and its allies from missile attack.
President Bush has offered to cooperate with Russia on a global
defense system.

However, this may all be a smoke screen to defend us from
potential enemies in space. Asteroid 2001PM9 was discovered on
August 11, 2001, and could make a close pass on May 10, 2003.
The first possible impact date calculated and the one with the
highest probability of occurring is on June 17, 2005. Chances
of impact are one in a million or less, but other asteroids may
be lurking out there undetected. Newer calculations now
indicate there probably is little or no threat from this
particular asteroid that measures 3/4 of a mile in diameter.
The impact from an asteroid of this size could kill between
500,000 and 1.5 Billion lives depending on where it hits Earth.

NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory claims there are currently 315
known "potentially hazardous asteroids," or PHAs. Each appears
to be on a course that will one day bring it close to Earth's
orbit, but scientists stress that none of them are known to be
on a collision course with the planet now. Recent observations
at the European Southern Observatory with the world's first
operational virtual telescope 'Astrovirtel' have determined
that the newly discovered asteroid "2001 KX76" has a diameter
of 1300 kilometers. An asteroid that could cause a global
disaster would have to be more than a quarter-mile wide.
Smaller asteroids strike Earth abort every 5,000 years that
could destroy a city or cause devastating tsunamis. Scientists
have called on governments to make plans on how to defend our
Earth since little is being done to determine if any large
asteroids might be headed for Earth.

It is reasonable to assume the President is aware of the
possible danger from meteors and is developing forces able to
deal with them. He has picked the former head of the US Space
Command, General Richard B. Myers to be the new Chairman of the
Joint Chiefs in charge of all US Military forces. He is now
the Vice Chairman of the JCS.
http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/db?
Name01pm9&group=all&search=Search, Objects: 2001PM9; Earth
Impact Possibilities
http://newton.dm.unipi.it/cgi-bin/neodys/neoibo?

US SHUTTLE BEING FOLLOWED?

PORTLAND -- NUFORC reports that a witness heard on the radio
that the US space shuttle would be visible in a fly over on
August 14, 2001. He went outside at the appointed time and
sure enough it flew over as expected. The interesting thing is
that at arm's length 4 inches" behind the shuttle, I could see
a faint dot following at the same speed. The witness stated,
"I also saw this a few years back when the US shuttle had just
separated from the Russian MIR station. It was not announced
that it would be visible with any other US or Foreign craft.
Cliff Rowe was monitoring the NASA TV video from the STS-105 on
August 11, 2001, as it glided silently around earth. He
observed a large dark round blurry object at 10:20 AM Central
Time video taped by the shuttle camera. The object was the
size of a thumb placed over the object on the TV screen. The
Shuttle's camera caught the object on the lower left of center
with the background of white clouds below.

Editor's Note: Jeff Challender and Les Willie have also been
recording video from the U.S. space shuttles for years that
show UFOs. We can speculate they are similar to the X-33
Venture Star developed at the Lockheed Martin's Skunk Works
facility in Palmdale, California. The program was canceled in
March,but the Air Force's top space official General Ralph E,
Eberhart commander of U.S. Space Command wants them. This
craft could be used as a space bomber bringing weapons to
anywhere on Earth in less than 90 minutes.

SIR FRED HOYLE ONE OF MY HEROES DIED

Sir Fred Hoyle was one of the main proponents of the Panspermia
Theory for the origin of life on Earth brought here from space.
This theory is gaining more and more favorable attention among
the scientific community. It was his role and published
writings in the 1950s on the cosmological origin debates
against over whether the Big Bang (a term he created) or the
Steady State theories (a theory he then championed more on
philosophical grounds than scientific) that got me wondering
about a populated universe. He felt extraterrestrial life
existed throughout the universe and was indirectly interested
in UFOs. Life was spread about the universe aboard asteroids,
meteors, and even cosmic dust; a kind of Johnny Appleseed
spreading the seeds of life everywhere. For those interested
in Sir Fred Hoyle and the Panspermia Theory, one can go to the
What's New link at:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1503000/1503721.stm
http://www.panspermia.org/


MAINE LIGHTS CHANGING SHAPES John Thompson writes

OAKLAND -- My girl friend and I saw two UFO's on August 11,
2001, at 2:00 AM. They looked about 3-4 miles away near the
horizon and very bright. The light they emitted was a white
light and cast a reflection on the lake. It had 3 different
shapes that it kept alternating into every few minutes. The
first shape looked like two balls that were stuck together,
then it appeared to move closer to me and would turn into a
five pointed star, and moving farther away it became a fine
point of light. The light had an aura around it. The light
appeared to be stationary. A few times it did move rather
rapidly, but would stay near the same place. The first time it
made a figure 8, then a few "sparkles" when other aircraft came
near it. I saw 6 planes go near the two objects. It looked
like a military plane shot a missile at it,(that is when I saw
the first "sparkle"). The second UFO was higher in the sky and
stayed in the same spot the whole time I was watching. It was
not as bright and was half the size as the first. It had a
shape of the two balls stuck together the whole time. I had
watched them for a couple hours and the desire for sleep took
over. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com.

LEWISTON -- Authorities have no explanation for eerie bright
lights and loud rumbling sounds that dozens of people reported
coming from the skies on August 25, 2001. People from
Lewiston, Auburn, Sabattus, Greene, Leeds, Monmouth, and Minot
called police or the Lewiston Sun Journal about the lights and
noises. They said they saw bright lights or a streak of light
followed by a flash, and heard loud rumbling noises. "It was a
long rumbling. It sounded like a huge, huge object," said Lynn
Madelyn Bailey, 59, of Minot. "I was afraid to go out on my
deck. It sounded like it was right over my house." But
officials said no commercial flights flew through the area at
the time. Lewiston Police Sgt. Michael McGonagle tried to find
the source of the phenomenon after taking several calls about
it. But after calling the Federal Aviation Administration, the
National Guard, the Maine Drug Enforcement Agency and others,
he didn't have an answer. Thanks to the Lewiston Sun Journal
and Gerry@FarShores - wwww.100megsfree4.com/farshores/

MASSACHUSETTS OBSERVED 45 LIGHTS FLYING ACROSS THE SKY

CAPE COD -- The witness claims, "I saw at first what I thought
was a shooting star on August 10, 2001, except that it was
going a bit slower than usual. I saw another very small bright
light amongst the stars 10:00 PM and it moved across the sky in
an arc, not a straight line. Another, then another followed
that almost as if they were chasing each other. The next few
that I observed zigzagged across the sky changing speed and
direction. Then, a formation of four to five, lined up across
from one another with one slightly ahead. These lights are all
very small, bright and disappeared very quickly. The formation
flew in an arc-shaped pattern then vanished. This was not
natural, so I asked my girlfriend come outside. She pointed up
and said, "Is that one?" I looked up and a light was very
quickly moving across the sky in a very tight arc shape. She
became frightened and went inside. I stayed and saw more of
these lights. The last one I observed before it clouded up was
traveling due west and suddenly sped off to the east. I saw
40-50 of them within 1 hour and fifteen minutes. Thanks to
NUFORC.

NEW JERSEY LIGHTS AND DIAMOND SHAPE CRAFT

TRENTON -- Bill Fenton reports multiple UFO sightings over the
Delaware River and nearby woods on Wednesday August 22, 2001.
He phoned several times to inform me that he and his friends
were observing high speed lights and a diamond shaped craft.
Flashes of light would depart the craft and fly into the area
streaking past their position on Route 295 overlooking the
Delaware River.

BRIGANTINE -- Later the same evening, I was awakened by a
family overlooking the Atlantic Ocean who were witnessing high
speed maneuvering lights at 4;00 AM. The lights sounded very
similar to those spotted over the Delaware River 75 miles
northwest earlier in the evening.

JERSEY CITY -- UFOzone reports that on August 24, 2001, "I have
video of a strange phenomenon that my wife and I witnessed last
night from our apartment. I first saw the strange orange
lights at around 12:00 midnight and got my cam. Normally, it
is difficult to see anything in the night sky that is why this
sighting is so unbelievable. We watched for five minutes
before it vanished. It was changing shape before our eyes, and
a satellite issued from it. I live right across the Hudson
River from the World Trade Center. I taped the phenomenon over
Newark Airport to the southwest. Thanks to Dan
http://www.ufozone.co.uk.

PENNSYLVANIA FLYING TRIANGLE

PITTSBURGH -- On August 13, 2001, my husband and I were sitting
on our bed at 10:45 PM, when I noticed a bright light outside
the window behind him. The object seemed to 'twinkle,' and was
gold in color. My husband and I noticed green and a blinking
red lights that seemed to pulsate. Two other objects appeared
'that were exactly like the first and all three together formed
an 'upside down triangle.' They were motionless for about a
minute, then began moving slowly. We stayed to see if they
would come back, and they did in about a minute. This time,
there were only two lights. There was one behind each tree
with their lights still blinking. They stayed behind the trees
for a minute, then went away and came back a minute later, then
disappeared. My husband was not convinced they were UFOs, but
our cat was acting strange all through the night. She got
under the covers last night to bite and scratch one of my feet,
which she has never done before. This morning she started
hissing at me and making weird sounds and her fur was standing
straight up, like she was spooked. Thanks to Peter Davenport
NUFORC

POCONO MOUNTAINS -- Eileen writes that on August 13, 2001,
around 1:00 AM she spotted a Flying Triangle shaped UFO flying
south near Tobyhanna. Eileen states, "I thought it was three
lights making a triangle, but then the way it went behind a
cloud we all decided it was one UFO. The other UFOs we saw
were going from south to northwest. They were coming from
behind a cloud and moving very slowly, so we could follow their
path until they were hidden behind trees. No matter what time
of year I go up there I am sure to see them." Thanks to Wileen
at Leenie9850

MARYLAND CIGAR SHAPED UFO

HAGERSTOWN -- Two of my employees where changing shifts at
around 7:00 AM on August 1, 2001, when the night auditor saw a
cigar shaped object in the sky. The object seemed to be about 5
miles away and moved at a very slow pace just above the tree
lines. When all of a sudden it shot a bright star object from
one of the ends, and flew up into the sky and out of sight.
Both employees where very stunned and have been talking about
it ever since. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director of NUFORC
www.ufocenter.com

OHIO LIGHTS

STOW -- Tami writes, "The first sighting occurred while camping
at Silver Springs in Stow and the second series of sightings
was at my home in Akron." I spotted something in the sky about
2:30 AM on August 14, 2001, and at first I thought it was the
Goodyear Blimp, but this object was hovering. My sister and I
watched this thing flash bright red and blue lights, it was
awesome. I started looking around and saw more. My brother in
law said he couldn't think of anything that they could be. It
seemed like everywhere we looked there were two or more of
these objects floating in the sky. Some of the bigger "lights"
flashed colors like they were communicating with each other.
It looked like they were practicing for something. The little
dull looking objects maneuvered around the bigger lights. We
watched these objects until sunrise when they vanished. They
returned the next night at around 9:00 PM, but were not present
on Thursday. They returned on August 17 and for the next six
nights. None were visible in daylight hours. They look like
stars, but are brighter, and they "strobe " red and blue, and
white. Some moved very fast and others just hover. Thanks to
Purplef15o@aol.com

INDIANA PHOTOGRAPHED UFO RETURNS

INDIANAPOLIS -- Angela R. Clark a former policewoman
photographed a UFO on August 7, 2001. She writes, "When I was
8 or 9 years old I saw my first UFO. A few days after that
sighting my best friend and I were out playing at night when we
heard some strange "music," that sounded like an Ice Cream
truck. We looked above the treetops and saw an Ice Cream truck
that was flying. I have been terrified of those trucks ever
since! Last night, I went outside about 12:45 AM and it
started to rain with lightening. That's when I heard it. I
heard ice cream truck music!!! My husband the skeptic heard it
too. I came inside and got in bed as my husband was turning
off all the lights. ICE CREAM TRUCK MUSIC ... was right
outside of my 2 story window. It was so clear and distinct ...
you would think that it was literally outside of the window.
My husband looked at me and said, "Did you hear that?" It
doesn't make sense an ice cream truck would be out at 1:00 in
the morning, during a storm! What the heck is going on?
Thanks to Angela and Jim Osborne MUFON Investigator

Editor's Note: George Hansen has written a new book called,
"The Tricksters," any true UFO stories have this strange
trickster of joker aspect. The photo Angela captured of a disk
shaped craft can be seen at www.filersfiles.com.

ILLINOIS BRIGHT GEOMETRIC SHAPE RECTANGLE

DUNLAP -- At about 11:10 PM on August 13, 2001, I was driving
north on IL Route 40 when my wife and I saw several private
airplanes with flashing lights that were easily seen. In front
of us an object came streaking down with a long tail at 20
degrees from vertical. It was a small parallelogram with sharp
angles, for the corners did not look to be right angles. I
remember that the parallelogram was a double image. I could
not blink to clear my vision or I would have missed it. My
wife did not recall a double image. At arm's length it was
1/4" long and 1/8" wide and the tail would have been 10 inches
long. The object and the tail looked blue green; to my wife
they looked more yellow. I did see it though a tinted
windshield. It looked big enough and close enough that we
thought it was going to hit the nearby fields and make an
explosion, but it did not. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC
who spoke with this witness, and found him to be quite
credible.

OKLAHOMA DISK

LAWTON -- The witnesses were driving north on 82nd Street when
they saw four objects take off from the ground one at a time in
three-second intervals on August 15, 2001. The objects flew
north at super high rate of speed and would go out of sight in
about three seconds. The disk shaped objects appeared 3 to 5
feet in diameter. Watching this event was awesome but the
weird thing about it was no noise. Each object looked as if it
were being propelled from the rear because the rear of each
unit was blurry, like heat waves or exhaust. Each object
traveled on a trajectory of about 25 degrees and flew due
north. The witness contacted local media but there were no
other reports. Thanks to Peter Davenport and NUFORC

CALIFORNIA FLYING OBJECTS

ROSEVILLE -- We were driving west on Pleasant Grove Boulevard
when, Janice, sighted group of six to ten objects she thought
were big birds. As she pointed them out to Richard, she
noticed they were changing formation and moving up and down.
Richard also saw them and decided to get closer by turning left
on Washington and later stopping his car to observe. The
objects moved southeast towards them flying in semicircular
patterns, straight lines, and constantly changing their
formation. Some were at higher altitudes but these were
neither birds nor balloons, and were under their own mode of
power maneuvering in unusual patterns. As the objects changed
directions, their color would change from a very bright white
to brilliant silver. The objects moved away but returned.
They flew in three triangular pairs, then formed a straight
line moving east. They reversed direction with two groups of
three at one point, forming a delta shape and making arcing
turns. They watched for five minutes and the objects formed a
delta shape again, and moved away at high speed to the
northeast. Richard is a 61-year-old engineer and Janice is a
53-year-old homemaker. Thanks to MUFONHQ@aol.com and
NEW-WUFOD-I..1-408 SITE:

WEED, NORTH OF MT. SHASTA -- On August 20, 2001, Mary C. was
driving southbound on I-5, looking out of sunroof to stargaze
at 10:00 PM. She noticed three stars moving in unison
southbound. They were positioned to make an uneven triangle
(no sides equal in length). Initially I thought it was a
satellite; however, the "stars" were too far apart and moved in
perfect unison. I questioned the likelihood that the "stars"
were lights on the points of a craft but the space in between
the "stars" was camouflaged against the night sky. We observed
the lights moving southbound and one by one they disappeared as
it reached a portion of the nebula. The speed was steady, not
fast, but not slow. The white lights did not twinkle nor
blink. They made a triangle at 30,000 to 60,000 feet, but this
was only an estimate. Thanks to (Mary c.) reports@ufoinfo.com
em4carmalt@aol.com -

WASHINGTON DIAMOND SHIPS DOCKING WITH ANOTHER

SALMON LA SA -- We were camping out on the river on August 10,
2001, on a clear dark night and noticed a very bright white
ball hovering to the south that moved downward to the peak of
the mountain. It exploded nonviolently into two small spheres
that moved toward the peak, when a bus sized craft appeared.
We could not really see the craft, but saw four 2x2 glowing
magnificent orange lights under it. It acted like it was going
to land. None of the lights signified it as an airplane, as
none were blinking. The craft got closer to the two spheres,
and they both went over the mountain, out of our view. Then a
second ship, identical to the first, made the same trajectory
towards the others, and zigzagged to maneuver over the peak of
the mountain. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC
www.ufocenter.com

AUSTRALIA LIGHTS

PERTH -- Brian Richards reports that on the August 11, 2001, at
9:30 PM, independent witnesses reported seeing three very
bright amber lights hovering overhead at Rockingham. They were
in a triangular formation with the apex pointing west towards
the ocean. One group of witnesses calculated their height at
200 feet and the size of a basketball. The lights then started
to move in different directions, coming back together and
moving apart again. After 12 minutes the lights headed out to
sea and gradually blinked out. The witnesses were able to see
the lower object in silhouette after the light had gone out.
They could see a dark arrow or delta shape moving westward.
Thanks to Brian Richards brianr@cleo.murdoch.edu.au
ASPR/UFORUM(WA)



UFO WEBSITE NAME TO BE SOLD AT AUCTION "The UFO Experience" is
a world-famous phrase coined by the late Dr. J. Allen Hynek in
his 1972 book of that title. Omega Communications, which I
direct, has ended its internationally acclaimed annual
conference, "The UFO Experience," and has closed its website.
(I was a friend of Dr. Hynek and now represent his literary
estate. The conference website's URL <<www.ufoexperience.com>>
will be offered for sale at auction via the Internet on e-Bay
in late September. The domain name is registered with
InterNIC, the organization which controls domain names. (The
conference videotapes are now for sale at www.ufocity.com. The
auction will be conducted on e-Bay for five days, beginning at
noon on Monday, September 24, 2001. Internet address for e-Bay
is <<http://www.ebay.com>>. The listing will be entered under
the "Domain Names" section. (On e-Bay's home page, enter
"Domain Names" in the question box "What are you looking for?"
and then select the "Find it!" button.) TERMS 1. There will
be a floor (minimum selling price) of $500. 2. The winning
bidder pays InterNIC fees to have domain name transferred to
name of bidder's choice. The winning bidder will own all
rights to the domain name, with no strings attached. Payment
must be received within 10 days of auction close. Pay via bank
cashier's check, bank wire transfer, U.S. Postal System money
order, or through escrow service, with all fees paid by bidder
in U.S. dollars ($). Sale is final; your bid will be binding.
The transfer of domain name ownership will not begin until the
payment has cleared. 3. Bidder declares that he or she is at
least 18 years of age and legally able to consummate a final
sale. Buyer must contact seller immediately upon end of
auction to arrange payment and to give information for transfer
of domain name. 4. Preemptive bids will be considered before
the auction. I warrant that I am the legal owner of the domain
name being offered for sale. I make no other warranties of any
kind whatsoever, either express or implied. John White,
Producer "The UFO Experience" Conference 60 Pound Ridge Road
Cheshire, Connecticut 06410-3412 USA Tel 203-272-2151 Fax
203-250-0501 E-mail JWhite8011@aol.com

LARGEST UFO CD-ROM IN EXISTENCE The Black Vault has unveiled
thousands of documents relating to the UFO phenomenon. Some,
have never been published in electronic form, nor have other
seen even the light of day. Declassified in recent years, this
CD holds over 5,000 pages of material, covering the past
half-century of government involvement in the UFO field of
research. From the CIA recently declassified documents to the
FBI. From the NSA to the DIA, this CD has a fantastic archive,
ready to browse with high-resolution scans. Easily read and
easily navigated, this research tool will be used for years to
come! To order, call toll free, (866) 828-2858 or outside the
continental US, (818) 886-0131. Order online today,
http://www.blackvaultstore.com

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL for $30 per year by
contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended you for
membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2001 by George A.
Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the
files on their Web Sites provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue
that the item appeared. These reports and comments are not
necessarily the official MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to
keep your name, address, or story confidential. Caution, most of
these are initial reports and require further investigation.











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   Aug > Aug 30

                Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

From: David Wachenschwanz <ploot@atomiccafe.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:15:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 18:41:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Date: 21 Aug 2001 09:48:23 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 10:05:30 -0400
 >>From: Sheree Cox <CoxSheree@netscape.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com (UFO UpDates - Toronto)
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>>Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:43:56 -0400
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure

 >>I agree with John Velez. A Hunger Strike can be very dangerous.
 >>Surely there's better and safer ways to protest. Does George
 >>Bush really care?

 >Please tell me. I'm listening.

 >Grant Cameron

 >"Are you ready for the revolution?"
 >Lara Johnstone, a California woman who began a Hunger Strike for
 >Disclosure on July 28th.


Let me understand this. Someone is not eating because she
believes that by starving herself, she can persuade the
government to disclose all here-to-now "secret" information
concerning UFOs, et al? Is that correct?

If so its noble, but stupid.

If the government had such "undisclosed" information (assuming
there is any truth to the UFO phenomenon) do you or anyone here
_really_ believe they would bend on this issue? People have been
killed or "removed" for lesser deeds by the government. The
government doesn't care if some "nut" starves herself. In their
view the "problem" will take care of itself when she draws her
last breath.


David E Wachenschwanz








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                Advanced Propulsion & New Energy Technologies

From: office@faraday.ru (Alexander V. Frolov)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:28:50 0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 18:51:47 -0400
Subject: Advanced Propulsion & New Energy Technologies

[Non-Subsscriber Post -- ebk]

Dear Sir,

We are a new scientific research and development laboratory and
publishers of 'New Energy Technologies' - a printed, 72 page
magazine, in English. It presents science and technology in the
field of new energy, advanced propulsion methods for aerospace
industry, torsion field (spin-field) generators, longitudinal
waves and space-time engineering, ether wind experiments and
other latest news from Russian research laboratories.

Please, look at the content of the Sept-Oct. 20001 issue at our
site:

http://www.faraday.ru

You can see our past issue also.

I hope our news can be useful in your scientific work. Also, we
are looking for business partners. Please, let your colleagues
know about our new company.

Best regards,

Sincerely,

Alexander V. Frolov
Director
Faraday Lab Ltd
http://www.faraday.ru
St.Petersburg, Russia
7-812-2764761








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   Aug > Aug 30

              Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:50:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 20:16:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Sandow


 >Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:34:15 -0400
 >Subject: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze
 >To: bravehrt@concentric.net, sqquishy@altavista.com
 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>

 >A strange coincidence has arisen.

 >Lara is planning to be in Washington Oct.4 as part of her
 >commitment to get President Bush to keep his promise made to
 >Charles Huffer in July 2000 related to UFOs.

 >In Washington at the same time as Lara, according to a press
 >release from the White House today will be a famous UFO
 >personality Eduard Shevardnadze. He will be meeting with
 >President Bush Oct.5. Will they discuss UFOs? Only time will
 >tell.

 >Shevardnadze gained his UFO reputation after having two
 >conversations with former President Ronald Reagan.

<snip>

This is just too much.

Shevardnadze is not a UFO personality. He's the President of the
former Soviet republic of Georgia, a country that (like many
former Soviet lands) is not in good shape. Before this he was
foreign minister under Gorbachev, in the last years of the
Soviet Union, during which he got a reputation, doubtless
deserved, as a liberal, and a good guy.

In his two conversations with Reagan, Reagan (at least as
reported in the part of the message I snipped) did almost all
the talking. Reagan, as I'm sure we all know, was fond of asking
whether the US and the USSR would drop their differences if
aliens appeared. Twice he asked that entirely rhetorical
question to Shevardnadze, whose only reported answer was
something to the effect of "Yeah, sure."

Now, suddenly, this makes Shevardnadze a "UFO personality," even
though no other time, as far as I know, was he associated in any
way with UFOs or ufology. And it makes his appearance in
Washington at the same time as Lara Johnstone's "a strange
coincidence."

Credulous people, it seems, are ready to believe just about
anything.


Greg Sandow












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             Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 13:04:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 20:21:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Velez


 >Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:28:07 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 10:05:30 -0400
 >>From: Sheree Cox <CoxSheree@netscape.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com (UFO UpDates - Toronto)
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>>Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:43:56 -0400
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure

 >>I agree with John Velez. A Hunger Strike can be very dangerous.
 >>Surely there's better and safer ways to protest. Does George
 >>Bush really care?

 >>Sheree Cox

 >John

 >I would like to add my voice in support of your concerns. I do
 >not feel that it is right to urge someone to commit harm to
 >oneself for publicity.

 >In this (as in many others) case, I am in 100% agreement with you.


Hi Sean,

Thank you but I need to clarify one point: I don't believe that
Lara is doing this for "publicity". I stated in my original that
I couldn't in good conscience support her methods, (because of
the potential harm to her person) but... that I am completely
simpatico with the 'cause' - UFO disclosure.

You are jumping the gun in assuming that she would subject
herself to such an agonizing course of action for mere
"publicity". Have you ever fasted? Do you know the kind of
determination and strong Will that it takes to go for days -
much less weeks - without solid food intake? It's _not_easy_ my
brother.

She, or anyone else, would have to be one sick puppy to undergo
such a _grueling_ endurance test for "publicity". Lara sounds
like a sincere person. Unless/until any evidence surfaces to
make me think otherwise I am taking her at her word that she is
on this fast for the reason's she has already stated.

I don't think that you, or anybody else is justified in jumping
to the conclusion that her motives are as selfish and self
serving as going on this fast in an attempt at getting some
cheap "publicity". There is no evidence that such is the case -
_so_far_. Let's wait and see how the whole thing plays out over
time.


Regards,

John Velez







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               Re: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 13:09:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 20:25:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images - Velez


 >Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 20:55:19 -0400
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images

 >>Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 17:49:07 -0300
 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images

 >>Hi Kenny,
 >
 >>Have you checked the winds for that day and location?


Hi Kenny, Don, All,

Kenny responded:

 >Hi Don;

 >No, from my watching the video it seems fairly obvious that this
 >is just a novelty balloon of some sort, there is nothing about
 >it (that I can see) to indicate anything at all otherwise that
 >would warrant any further investigative concern.

I disagree Kenny. Nobody has addressed a couple of important,
and I think valid points that I raised in my original post.

1. If that 'thing' is a balloon; "Why wasn't such an obviously
expensive balloon (due to its size) tethered? If it was an
advert for some local used car dealership, (ahem, excuse me,
'Pre-owned' vehicle dealer) or the like, why wasn't it
_tethered_ over the business location where it would do the most
good?

There are no signs of brand-names or business ads that I can see
on this "balloon". Someone paid a pretty penny for a van-sized
Gamera balloon if that is what it is. It just doesn't make sense
that they would send it up and let it go without at the very
least taking the opportunity spray their logo all over it to
grab some publicity.

2. If it was a commercial 'runaway' why hasn't anybody stepped
forward to recover/retrieve their property?

3. Assuming it is a 'runaway balloon' or an 'intentional
hoax/prank,' again, why hasn't anybody come forward to claim the
balloon or the credit (if they are hoaxers) for putting one over
so many people?

The 'balloon' explanation is easy and simplistic but it doesn't
answer some practical and tough questions. There's more to this
than meets the eye. It's still too early to dismiss or write
this incident off as '"explained'. Too many open questions.


Regards,

John Velez







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              Re: New Developments In Linda Cortile Abduction -

From: George Hansen <gphansen2001@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:28:38 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 20:35:19 -0400
Subject: Re:  New Developments In Linda Cortile Abduction -


 >From: Intruders Foundation <IFConfer@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:41:18 -0400
 >Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:37:37 -0400
 >Subject: New Developments In Linda Cortile Abduction


Budd Hopkins just announced that Cardinal O'Connor has been
linked to the 1989 case of the UFO abduction of Linda Napolitano
(aka Linda Cortile).

My new book, The Trickster and the Paranormal, addresses the
case and provides some new analysis. A description of the book
can be found at:

http://www.tricksterbook.com

The relevance of the book for ufology is described at:

http://www.tricksterbook.com/BookDescriptions/Ufology.htm


The site also has the 1993 critique of the Linda case
by Stefula, Butler, and Hansen.

http://www.tricksterbook.com/ArticlesOnline/LindaCase.htm







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                          Secrecy News -- 08/30/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@igc.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:42:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:05:57 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 08/30/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
August 30, 2001


**      ANTI-LEAK LAW MAY BE "UNWORKABLE"
**      GAO CRITICIZES DOE SECURITY


ANTI-LEAK LAW MAY BE "UNWORKABLE"

The controversial Senate Intelligence Committee proposal to
criminalize unauthorized disclosures of classified information
would be extremely difficult to implement in practice, skeptical
security officials say. Among other things, it might require the
establishment of an entire new bureaucracy to review the
proposed public statements of millions of Americans who once
held a clearance and now fear prosecution for disclosing
classified information.

The practical difficulty with the anti-leak proposal stems from
the absence of clarity about what is "classified." The
definition of classified information is obviously not stable
over time. What is classified today may not be classified
tomorrow, and vice versa.

But to complicate matters further, different agencies may assign
a different classification status to the same information at the
same time. "Even the experts cannot always agree on what is
classified," according to one senior national security agency
official who recently retired. "There is predictable
variability."

(This fact has sometimes been turned to advantage by Freedom of
Information Act requesters who request declassification of the
same document from different agencies, yielding substantially
different but complementary declassified texts.)

The upshot is that a scrupulous person may never be absolutely
sure that a particular piece of information concerning national
defense or foreign policy is unclassified. "The [proposed
anti-leak] legislation puts at risk anyone who has or had a
clearance who communicates with the press since there is not
even agreement about what is legitimately or properly
classified," the official said.

"The existing system isn't good, but when the [proposed] law
removes intent to harm [as a criterion of guilt for disclosing
information] and doesn't define how you know when something is
properly classified, that has the effect of shocking Pavlov's
poor dog at random times no matter how he behaves."

"The only way to proceed with a semblance of protection would be
for anyone concerned about getting in trouble to obtain a
classification review in writing about what he or she proposes
to say. But administratively, this would be a nightmare," the
official said.

"The whole idea is unworkable. As someone who has spent some
time with the classification system, I do not think our
government's classification apparatus is capable of handling the
many inquiries that would surely arise from the millions of
people who have had clearances who may wish to talk to the
press, write a letter to the editor, discuss foreign policy in
public, etc."

Implementation of the law might therefore require the creation
of a new government entity whose sole purpose would be the
review and approval (or censorship) of proposed statements from
formerly cleared persons who want to avoid committing a felony
by disclosing information that might be classified.

No one has begun to consider how such a new government-wide
prepublication review agency might function, or what it would
cost.

Another significant degree of complexity arises from the fact
that the proposed law prohibits disclosure of "any" classified
information -- not just information to which a person may have
had authorized access. This means that any discussion or
elaboration of classified information that is already in the
public domain could also be a felony. And even prepublication
review might not solve that problem.

"Government reviewers would not be able to certify that a
particular submission was unclassified if it contained
classified information taken from the public domain," the
official said. "It might even be legally impermissible for them
to provide an expurgated text or to otherwise indicate to a
formerly cleared person what information in his proposed
statement is classified, since he or she is no longer authorized
to possess such information."

In any case, "If Freedom of Information Act requests are a rough
prototype of what a citizen has to go through to get a
classification review completed for requested documents, anybody
requesting an official review to help them avoid a felony for
releasing classified information is going to have to wait a long
time," the official said.

"Agencies typically take many months to some years to review
information requested under the FOIA. If the press can't wait
for John Q. Clearance to make sure he isn't going to prison,
then the public is effectively denied any input he might have
provided. Goodbye, First Amendment."

For now, the Senate Intelligence Committee appears to be
hell-bent on advancing this proposal. A seemingly perfunctory
public hearing on the matter is scheduled for September 5.
Meanwhile, opposition continues to mount.

"Criminalizing all leaks to stop the few that actually pose a
security threat amounts to burning down the house to roast the
pig," according to an editorial in the Chicago Tribune today:

http://chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0108300067aug30.story


GAO CRITICIZES DOE SECURITY

"The Department of Energy (DOE) has recently taken, and
continues to take, steps to upgrade protection and control over
its classified information, but additional steps are needed,"
according to a new report of the General Accounting Office
(GAO).

Though forcefully stated, the GAO's latest criticisms of DOE
security policy are picayune. The new report contends that DOE
should document with greater specificity its determinations that
individual employees have a "need to know" classified
information, and that the agency should consider reinstituting
certain access controls on top secret information.

Rather obtusely, the GAO authors do not acknowledge the
existence of any tension between security and mission
performance. Yet aggressive security measures have been seen to
adversely affect employee morale at DOE laboratories, and to
hinder recruitment and retention of highly skilled personnel,
posing a threat to the long-term vitality of these institutions.

It will always be possible to conceive of improvements in
security, especially if cost and performance considerations are
excluded. But perfect security could be achieved only by
shutting down all DOE facilities. Only then could one say with
certainty that no more secrets would ever be lost from those
facilities.

See the new GAO report ("DOE Needs to Improve Control Over
Classified Information," GAO-01-806, August 24, 380 kB PDF file)
here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/gao01806.pdf


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:
   subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:
   http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691






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                  Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:37:41 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:08:21 -0400
Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Rimmer


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 01:32:19 EDT
 >Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >I don't understand. On one hand Dave and Andy claim Georgia is
 >"puffing" magazine sales and "buy the magazine" yet all they
 >appear to do is puff flyingsaucery.com and 'go to our web site.'
 >Gee, I can't tell much difference between what they critique and
 >what they do!


I suppose one possible difference is that the website is free to
anyone who dips in, but the magazine costs money?


John Rimmer

Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                           Re: Ursa Major - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 17:04:59 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:10:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Ursa Major - Young


 >Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 16:50:56 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson@alienjigsaw.com>
 >Subject: Ursa Major

 >From 'Filer's Files' and 'The Alien Jigsaw'

 >NEW PLANETARY SYSTEM

 >University of California at Berkeley announced that astronomers
 >have discovered a planetary system with two giant planets
 >centered on a star that is similar to our sun in chemical
 >composition. The findings indicate smaller planets similar to
 >Earth may be located in orbits inside these giant planets. The
 >astronomers believe many stars may have solar systems similar to
 >our own. Assuming the inner planets actually exist they are
 >likely to have water and life may flourish there. The newly
 >found solar system is orbiting Ursae Majoris only 45 light years
 >away, about 200 trillion miles from Earth. "Of all the solar

Ladies & Gents:

The solar system is actually around the star 47 Ursae Majoris,
not orbiting the constellation.


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 04:35:18 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:14:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Hatch


 >From: Luis R. Gonzlez Manso <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 11:54:03 +0200

 >>Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:45:27 -0700
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris

 >>Some fellow in Europe concocted a fantastic tale, possibly an
 >>abduction or whatever, with alien contact wherein the aliens
 >>divulged that they had stolen an electrical meter from some
 >>house... presumably to see how it worked.

 >>His story was blown .. he tripped himself up in some other way,
 >>and finally confessed the whole matter if I recall correctly.

 >>Before this rude exposure, somebody looked up police records for
 >>the town in question, and (gasp!) indeed an electrical meter
 >>mysteriously vanished from a house there!

 >>It turned out that the perp had looked up the same records, and
 >>carefully woven those unlikely facts into his own fantasia,
 >>clearly in the hope that someone would find the missing meter
 >>records independently!

 >Dear Larry,

 >You are talking about the infamous UMMO hoax, but the answer is
 >not so simple. Mr. Pea (the hoaxer) lives in Spain and the
 >alleged electrical meter robbed by the ummites was in La Javie
 >(France) (about 2.000 kms far away).

 >LuisR.


Ah! Thank you Luis!

I knew I had an imperfect memory of the account, but that rings
true. Do you have some reference for this? I vaguely recall
reading it in one of Vallee's books, or something similar.


Best!

- Larry Hatch









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                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:01:37 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:20:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Sparks


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 13:44:42 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com


 >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:15:37 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >>>Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 20:29:01 -0400

 >><snip>

 >>>Since the pictures are of the Roswell debris, it is assumed that
 >>>the message in Ramey's hand is about Roswell. I am unconvinced
 >>>by what people are trying to read on the paper. It could be
 >>>anything, including after action comments about General Van's
 >>>visit to 8th AF area a few days before.

 >>>Of course, for the last 50 years everything breathe any Air
 >>>Force office takes involves UFOs, so all the other paperwork is
 >>>turned out by gnomes in the Pentagon to cover up what is really
 >>>going on.

 >>>Ramey like any general officer had 50 items on his calendar
 >>>everyday.

 >>Hi Jan,

 >>What on earth are you talking about? This is just plain silly
 >>talk and well below your normal very high standards! Are you
 >>overworked or something?

 >>It is an indisputable _fact_ that the easiest words to read on
 >>the entire Ramey Message are "FORT WORTH, TEX." on Line 3 and
 >>"WEATHER BALLOONS" on Line 7. I read them 16 years ago when I
 >>borrowed a high res enlargement that Bill Moore had obtained.
 >>This tells me, by the way, that they already knew about the
 >>Project MOGUL balloon arrays consisting of multiple weather
 >>balloons since the reference is to plural "WEATHER BALLOONS."
 >>The rest of the text as I read it makes this very clear, i.e.,
 >>that the weather balloons had been found near Roswell.

 >"WEATHER BALLOONS" is certainly there, and by itself tells us
 >this is about Roswell. How often would Ramey deal with "weather
 >balloons" in any capacity and be sending telegrams about them?


Hi Dave,

Exactly. I agree with you 100% here. And before some smartaleck
jumps in here and says it's not proven that Ramey sent the
message, all I need point out is that Ramey and his staff do not
need to be told that his headquarters are in "FORT WORTH, TEX."
so no _incoming_ message from somewhere else is going to tell
_him_ that, it would almost be insulting! However, he would
certainly identify his own location out of courtesy and to avoid
confusion in any outgoing message that he sent over a great
distance, i.e., to Washington, which had to deal with a
worldwide network of military bases. (If he had sent it to one
of the units under his command such as the 509th at Roswell he
would not need to tell them he was in Ft. Worth.)

 >I disagree, however, with your interpretation of what "weather
 >balloons" is telling us here. Just because Ramey uses the plural
 >"balloons" does _not_ mean this has to do with Mogul. Instead, I
 >read the last 3 lines of the message as having to do with what
 >the public was being told and how they were covering it up.
 >"Weather balloons" is in the phrase "NEXT SENT OUT PR [press
 >release] IS OF WEATHER BALLOONS..." "Weather balloons" was being
 >used generically here. The next line was about adding RAWIN
 >demonstration crews to firm up the weather balloon explanation.

I largely agree but also partially disagree with you here Dave.
Despite the fact my reading of the text completely diverges from
yours here except for the words "WEATHER BALLOONS" my reading
nevertheless, amazingly, agrees with you that there is some kind
of deliberately manipulated PR campaign being described that
involves the "WEATHER BALLOONS" that were found and that they
(Ramey and his recipient(s)) knew full well about the Mogul
multiple-weather-balloon arrays, and that something else had
been found besides the Mogul array, and that it was anomalous.

Please keep in mind that as the first Roswell skeptic, who
argued at great length with Stan Friedman and Bill Moore over
the case long before it went fully public (as well as with
others), this clashes with everything I have believed or
understood about the case. I have spent a long time trying to
fit my reading of the Ramey Message into a Mogul explanation
scheme - especially the reading that I think refers to a Mogul
array actually being found - but it just won't work. It's the
simple two-, three- and four-letter words that kill any
simplistic effort to explain it away as Mogul. And now my
ongoing review of Karl Pflock's book has shattered my skeptical
understanding of the case.

 >What was happening here is that they were gearing up for a
 >national weather balloon debunking campaign that was to begin
 >the next day, using weather balloon demonstrations to debunk the
 >saucers. See, e.g., the following telegram from the night of
 >July 8 on the Project 1947 web page:

 >www.project1947.com/roswell/wkzo.htm

 >(Thanks to Jan Aldrich for putting this interesting document up
 >on his Web site.)

Yes thanks to you both, Jan and Dave, because I have looked
everywhere for that memo and could not find it - I've had to
rely on memory and my memory turned out too pro-Mogul.

This is a private telegram to the Intelligence Division of the
War Dept (it was not called G-2 then) from Tony Gaston, News
Editor of WKZO radio station in Kalamazoo, Michigan, sent at
10:15 PM (EST) on the night of July 8, 1947, or just a few hours
after Gen. Ramey's press conference in Ft. Worth and Ramey's
radio broadcast on KBAP. It was received a few minutes later at
10:21 PM EST as shown by the date-time stamp of 1947 JULY 09
0321Z, thus proving that Daylight Savings Time was not in wide
use back then (Congress had to pass the Uniform Time Act in 1966
to enforce uniform observance of DST). Apparently Gaston was
following up on that news.

 >Here, the newsman is being told by military intelligence in
 >Washington that they thought radar targets explained all the
 >recent flying saucer sightings. That was the official drumbeat
 >for the next few days.

Tony Gaston of WKZO in Michigan apparently was given Col
Marcellus Duffy's name as a lead to track down to find out what
might be causing the saucer sightings. Who gave it to him or how
is not known but it certainly belies the notion that Project
Mogul was so utterly secret and compartmented that absolutely
nothing could be learned about it even peripherally, since here
was the supposed former Project Officer for TOP SECRET Mogul
giving a press interview. Apparently the info that Duffy was
replaced by Trakowski and transferred to Wright Field soon after
he started on Mogul in Nov 1946 is wrong (Pflock pp. 146-7)
since here was Col Duffy still in New Jersey in July 1947 and
being referenced as apparently the currently knowledgeable
official on what we now know was Mogul.

I bet local news clips from Michigan might tell us more about
what Gaston found out and reported on.

 >Also note that newsman was told to contact Col. M Duffy in New
 >Jersey for more information on the radar targets. This is Col.
 >Marcellus Duffy, who helped develop the RAWIN targets at nearby
 >Fort Monmouth and was the first Project Officer for Mogul.

 >This is also the same Col. Duffy who supposedly was at Wright
 >Field that night examining the debris flown in from Fort Worth
 >after Ramey had allegedly cancelled the flight. Duffy further
 >allegedly definitively IDed the material as coming from Project
 >Mogul, according to Air Force debunkers (this was one of the
 >cornerstones of their Mogul explanation). But how could Duffy be
 >doing this if he was actually in New Jersey near Mogul
 >headquarters?

Apparently Duffy's memory of what state he was in was terribly
faulty and makes his account highly unreliable and questionable
in the same way that CIC/OSI agent Lewis Rickett's testimony is
dismissed when it is pro-UFO but accepted when it helps build
the anti-UFO case or doesn't harm it (Pflock pp. 111 [accepted],
112 [rejected], 113 [accepted], 114-6, 153-4 [rejected]). No one
has ever described a flight taking Roswell debris to _New
Jersey_ of all places.

Whereas the FBI teletype I discovered back in 1979 was well
known and has been available for many years, and it explicitly
states there was a flight to Wright Field. Either Duffy held the
Roswell debris in his hands in Dayton or he didn't. There is no
in-between here. The July 8, 1947, telegram to Army Intelligence
proves that Duffy was not in Dayton, Ohio, but in New Jersey.

My suggestion is that Duffy never got awakened in the middle of
the night to be shown the Roswell debris and to then identify it
as weather balloon equipment (Pflock p. 151). Duffy was in New
Jersey and evidently never shown the material at all. I think
Duffy had been on the phone all afternoon to answer questions
from the AAF brass about Mogul, and was able to collect enough
data to figure out that the AAF was settling on the Mogul
explanation in the guise of "weather device," so that when a
reporter, Tony Gaston from Michigan, managed to track him down
in New Jersey, Duffy was ready. Or maybe Duffy got direct orders
(but more likely no one expected reporters would find him so no
one thought he had to be given any orders about what to say).
Duffy must have sufficiently concealed this high-level
discussion that it seemed to Gaston that no one in the military
was doing anything about it. Gaston then decided this
information from Duffy was so important that it needed to be
brought to the attention of Army Intelligence in Washington
immediately by telegram, at 10:15 at night.

Thanks again Dave for bringing this up. I had cited this
imperfectly in the private email debates these past several days
and now I have it clearly.

 >In DebunkerLand, witnesses for the prosecution are allowed to be
 >in two places at once. CIC officer Sheridan Cavitt played this
 >game as well. According to the Air Force Roswell Report, he was
 >simultaneously back East in training and at Roswell picking up
 >body parts from a B29 crash in May, 1947. Cavitt also
 >independently placed himself out on the debris field picking up
 >a weather balloon, whereas for years he denied being involved or
 >even stationed at Roswell at the time.

You are right about the double standard. However the dating of
Cavitt's assignment to Roswell was remembered wrong by him and
had to be corrected by Cavitt's wife, who remembered personal
life details that were dateable, according to Karl (I can't seem
to find this in his book and it might be in an email from him).

 >>Most researchers agree that it is "ROSWELL" or "ROSWELL, NMEX."
 >>on Line 5. And I agree that it is signed "RRAMEY" on Line 9.

 >Agreed, though I think it just says "ROSWELL." and "RAMEY."
 >(Incidentally, I was the first to propose these
 >interpretations.)

Thanks for the clarification. Previously all I knew was that
both you and Tom Carey had proposed similar readings on these
portions of the text in March 2000 and I had no way of knowing
who was first, I had no exact dates. I agree more with Tom's
variants but the key thing is that these are extremely crucial
readings, not trivial, and you should definitely get the credit
for them if you were first. Especially since to do so you were
having to run up against the party-line errors of the previous
interpreters and had to have the boldness to see clearly the
correct readings.

 >"RAMEY" looks like a 6 letter word because
 >there is handwriting underneath slanting upward and crossing the
 >end of the signature line. That, I believe, is the source of the
 >confusion. The second letter is definitely an "A" and we are not
 >dealing with a mystery man named "TEMPLE".

I don't see this handwriting.

 >>That pretty much covers most of the visible message and it is
 >>flatout undeniable that it _all_ relates to the Roswell
 >>incident.

 >You left out on the big word "DISC" (in quotes) on line 4, which
 >is undeniably there. (Part of the phrase "IN THE "DISC")

You're right. I had thought of it but wondered if it could
dismissed on the grounds that it could be argued by someone that
it might merely refer to the flying disc reports generally in
the news (which is _not_ my reading whatsoever). But you're
right because it does absolutely prove that this Line 4 cannot
possibly be some unrelated matter about base barbecues or
whatever but clearly has to do with the Roswell subject matter.
So I should have included it.

So, it is indisputable that Line 3 has "FORT WORTH, TEX."
Line 4 has "THE 'DISC' ".
Line 5 has "ROSWELL" or "ROSWELL, NMEX."
Line 7 has "WEATHER BALLOONS."
Line 9 has "RAMEY" or "RRAMEY."

There simply cannot possibly be any reasonable question that
this entire message _all_ has to do with the Roswell incident.
Enough of the first lines can be read to be sure that it too
refers to the same subject matter and isn't switching from base
cookouts and aircraft maintenance schedules or what-have-you to
suddenly discussing the Roswell incident. After the standard
military electronic addressing that always appears at the very
top there just isn't enough room on this short message to
discuss anything else but the subject of what is clearly the
bulk of the message - Roswell.

 >There
 >is also, of course, "VICTIMS" on line 2 (which just about
 >everybody sees as there, except you Brad, as I understand it).

Intellectual phase-lock. Need to break out of it.

 >>With the rest of the text filled in as I have been
 >>able to do, including text hidden under Ramey's thumb, it is of
 >>course blatantly obvious it all relates to the Roswell case.

 >I'm sure there will be battles royal over the exact
 >interpretation, but this message is flat out, undeniably about
 >the Roswell Incident. I remember having this argument with Kevin
 >Randle last year, who was also arguing that there was no
 >evidence that this message had anything to do with Roswell. Just
 >a few, clearly visible key words like "DISC" and WEATHER
 >BALLOONS (not to mention the timing of Ramey holding the message
 >while he is trying to sell a weather balloon story) says
 >otherwise.

 >David Rudiak

We are in large agreement, the message is as you put it "flat
out, undeniably about the Roswell incident." However, I do not
need any "battles royale" over the message readings as I already
have plenty of battles fighting behind the scenes with other
Roswell skeptics who apparently are infuriated that I am
betraying the cause due to finding new startling evidence which
I cannot deny and I refuse to twist and distort to fit an
anti-Roswell agenda. I will be posting more about this soon now
that UpDates is back online. I am still hopeful that some kind
of conventional explanation for Roswell will emerge but it looks
dim, especially after reading Karl's book.

One main stumbling block to a pro-UFO interpretation of Roswell
is that "the" debris looks like a bunch of trash from someone's
garage, not engine parts from an extraterrestrial spacecraft,
and in fact "resembles" Mogul balloon array debris according to
1947 contemporaneous documentation (8th AF's Major Kirton's
statement in the FBI teletype). But I have strenuously argued in
private along the same lines you have, Dave, as well as Neil
Morris (whom I disagree with on almost everything else) that
there was something unusual about the material, and that the
fact reported to the FBI and Reuters that it only "resembles"
and cannot seem to be simply and squarely identified by anyone
at the 8th AF and dismissed as weather balloon-cable-radar
reflector is troubling.

However there also appear to be two sites or one very large site
with spilled debris maybe only seemingly "connecting" them and I
would argue as a working hypothesis the Pflock 1994 thesis of
Mogul + Anomaly, but keeping in mind (a) the anomalous aspects
of the seemingly "Mogul" debris itself as well as (b) the strong
possibility that aerial recon simply turned up one of the Mogul
balloon arrays somewhere on July 8, 1947, and they sent it on
too. Logically, if there was aerial recon - and there was a
whole base, the 509th at Roswell, with nothing else better to do
- the shiny foil-paper radar reflectors from one of the lost
Mogul flights would have attracted attention from some distance.
We're only talking about 15-20 minutes' flying time from Roswell
to the general area of Foster Ranch.

For an example of the dilemmas I am in, I just recently
discovered 14 points of evidence mostly from Karl's book to
support the fact that the world's leading meteoriticist Dr.
Lincoln LaPaz did in fact investigate Roswell with two CIC
agents in the summer of 1947 and did find something very
unusual, which he never found in 1949 in conjunction with the
Green Fireballs. In the course of trying to reconstruct what
LaPaz was likely to have found out I discovered that the
Wilmots' publicized sighting of July 2, 1947 (in the same
headline article announcing the finding of the Roswell "disc")
yields a meteor radiant or possible interplanetary spacecraft
orbit originating on or near the solar system's ecliptic plane,
which is extraordinary (about 21 hrs RA, -30� Dec). Notice one
is given the two extraterrestrial choices - meteor or spaceship.


Brad








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                 Scientist Hopes To Nail Down Strange Noises

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:29:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:29:19 -0400
Subject: Scientist Hopes To Nail Down Strange Noises



From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

Source: Raleigh News & Observer

http://detnews.com:80/2001/nation/0108/30/a12-282127.htm


Scientist Hopes To Nail Down Strange Noises

Mysterious sounds reported as far back as 1850s in N. Carolina

By Jerry Allegood - Raleigh News & Observer


FORT FISHER, N.C. -- The sound rolls in off the ocean like an
invisible tidal wave, washing over houses with enough force to
rattle windows and startling people who look uneasily to the
ground and to the sky for an explanation.

Boom. Rattle. Rattle boom. And it is over as quickly as it
began.

The mysterious noises have been reported as far back as the
1850s.

Now, a Duke University seismologist hopes to find clues about
the mystery sound's origins as a side benefit from an earthquake
research project.

Peter Malin, a seismology professor for 10 years, plans to
monitor a sensor that has been placed deep in the ground at the
Fort Fisher State Historic Site near Wilmington.

The sensor is intended to record minor seismic activity that
might indicate when more significant quakes can be expected.
There is no explanation for the sounds, at least not one on
which everyone agrees.

Some say the rumbling is a sonic boom created by unseen
aircraft. Others suggest top-secret military training offshore
or maybe the earth moving on the ocean floor or deep below
ground.

Then there are the theories that gave the phenomenon its name,
the Seneca Guns -- that the sound comes from the ghosts of
American Indians firing guns to disturb descendants of those who
drove them from their land.

This name first arose in New York, then applied to North
Carolina, even though there were no Seneca Indians there.

Malin's hunch is that the booming noise originates in the
atmosphere, although he has no particular theory on the cause.

He heard the sound and saw its impact in July while preparing
his project. Doors and windows shook, but the house didn't, he
said, indicating to him that the ground did not move.

Residents who have heard the noise for years have ruled out
obvious suspects such as thunder because the booms have occurred
on clear days when there were no clouds or lightning.

Accounts of the rumbling date back to the days before airplanes,
much less supersonic jets that fly fast enough to break the
sound barrier.

There is no particular pattern, although in the past they have
been reported most often in the fall and spring.

Other scientists have suggested that the interplay between water
and weather might be causing the sounds.

Some people say that the mystery should never to solved, but
Malin says that there is good scientific basis for his wanting
to figure it
out.






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                     Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:06:19 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:31:15 -0400
Subject: Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike


Gesundt begins hunger strike in order to compell others not to
do hunger strikes because it's bad for your health. Gesundt, in
a touching rendition of "taps" played through bottles of Gripple
Dripple Sin Gas, Gesundt told reporters that it's really OK to
go on a hunger strike, providing you get the permission of those
who don't think it's such good idea.

Which is impossible unless one can demonstrate that it's OK.
Gesundt is gonna prove that it _is_ OK. All's you gotta do is
drink mass quantities of Gripple Dripple Sin Gas. It's got every
thing you need for nutrition. Fat, juicy critters for protein,
dripping in fruit juices (largely grape with some apple and
undisclosed other fruit juice for energy and vitaminies, it's
got alcohol so as to create within, a pleasant (but nutritious)
after glow.

It also has minerals. Yes, this stuff will keep you going for
months without having to eat or drink anything else. And _most_
important, even those of you whose permission is required in
order for an adult to demonstrate his or her dedication to a
CAUSe, even you will not be able to dispute the efficacy of such
a hunger strike.

So, watch for Gesundt's progress in the coming months. And if he
sounds a bit tipsy, well, not to mind. It's the Gripple. Gesundt
is now sitting comfortably in his hunger strike chair, waiting
for the reaction to come.

And in advance, he wishes to extend his greatful appreciation to
those of you who care so much (how much?) - SO MUCH, that you
will go to great lengths to tell each other just how much.

"Hey, Gesundt, stay away from them grahams. It's not on the
diet!"

There is one downside to hunger striking on Gripple. It really
makes you hungrier than weed.


Dr. Morty,
Physician

PS: Pass me the ham sandwitch. I hate looking at inebriated hungry
    people without a hero in my hand.








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             Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 20:12:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:39:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Lehmberg


 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze
 >Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:50:34 -0400

 >>Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:34:15 -0400
 >>Subject: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze
 >>To: bravehrt@concentric.net, sqquishy@altavista.com
 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>

<snipped>

 >Now, suddenly, this makes Shevardnadze a "UFO personality," even
 >though no other time, as far as I know, was he associated in any
 >way with UFOs or ufology. And it makes his appearance in
 >Washington at the same time as Lara Johnstone's "a strange
 >coincidence."

 >Credulous people, it seems, are ready to believe just about
 >anything.

This is forgetting why we're credulous in the first place, Mr.
Sandow. Perhaps a few of these credulous people are tired of
being kept in the dark and fed the usual dung (hapless mushrooms
anticipating the harvest) and would attempt _some_ kind of
proactive stance in an effort to alleviate their aggregate
ignorance. It's plain that it's a fools game to wait around for
the ufological luminaries (those haughtily bereft of that
disdained credulity) to do so.

Again, the hunger strike is not the issue. The issue is what
precipitates the hunger strike. The woman is not the problem,
the _problem_ is the problem.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

  ~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by the scurrilous.











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                             UFO Public Library

From: Thiago Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 22:22:48 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:41:26 -0400
Subject: UFO Public Library


Dear friends,

I would like to thank those whose helped us donating some
materials, books and videos to our Public UFO Library. Special
thanks to Mr. Kevin Randle, Bob Pratt, Dr. David Jacobs and Dr.
John Mack, that sent to us some books.

We are opening until the end of this year our library to share
with those that like the subject but do not have money or
informations to study the phenomenon. We want to help, to
diffuse the ufology and be useful to the society.

To those that want to help us donating books, videos, documents,
phots, please, send to this address:


Thiago Luiz Ticchetti
CLN 408 Bloco A apto. 224
Asa Norte
Brasilia/DF
70856-510
Brazil


Thanks to all.

Thiago Luiz Ticchetti
Vice-Presidente da Entidade Brasileira de Estudos
Extraterrestres(Braslia/Brasil)
(EBE-ET VICE PRESIDENT)

www.ebe-et.com.br
ICQ 35119615











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              UFO Research NSW Oz Conference - 2nd Of September

From: Diane Harrison <auforn@Ehome.net.au>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:58:46 +1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 18:37:37 -0400
Subject: UFO Research NSW Oz Conference - 2nd Of September


UFO Research NSW
UFO Conference September 2nd 2001
at Wentworthville Leagues Club

This Sunday the 2nd of September UFO Research NSW will present a
UFO Conference at Wentworthville Leagues Club from 1pm to 5pm.
The conference is part of an ongoing effort by UFO Research NSW
to inform the public in regard to the UFO phenomenon and also to
supply an opportunity for people to voice their own opinions and
experiences regarding the subject.

Our speakers

For Wentworthville Leagues include Graciella Flain from South
America, who will speak of latest developments in an area known
to be a "hotspot" for UFO activity, Bryan Dickerson President of
UFO Research NSW, speaking on the abduction aspect of the
phenomenon and Karen Burden, senior Investigator for both UFO
Research NSW and The Australian UFO Research Network discussing
sightings in Sydneys Greater Western Suburbs.

An entry fee of $10.00 per person applies to cover costs
incurred.

"UFO Expo"

This year UFO Research NSW has presented conferences at
Campbelltown, Central Coast, Riverwood as well as Surry Hills.

 From November through till January UFO Research NSW in
conjunction with Liverpool Regional Museum will be presenting a
"UFO Expo" with art exhibits drawn from various mediums as well
as National and International speakers for the seminar November
9th and 10th. Various other activities are planned during the
period which include skywatches, family BBQ's and other social
activities.

UFO Research NSW supports the "National UFO Research Network
Hotline" a 24 hour 7 days a week free call number for people to
report UFO sightings. The number to report sightings is 1800
772288.

--
Regards

Diane Harrison

National Director
The Australian UFO Research Network
and UFO Hotline.

Tel number 1800 77 22 88 a Free Call
Australian UFO Research Network -
http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw


A non profit organisation
PO Box 738
Beaudessert 4285
QLD Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888







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             Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:50:49 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:20:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Young


 >Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 13:04:30 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:28:07 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

<snip>

 >You are jumping the gun in assuming that she would subject
 >herself to such an agonizing course of action for mere
 >"publicity". Have you ever fasted? Do you know the kind of
 >determination and strong Will that it takes to go for days -
 >much less weeks - without solid food intake? It's _not_easy_ my
 >brother.

Hi, John:

You may be making a mistake, here, in equating your own
reasoning with hers. Why is having a strong will and
determination incompatible with publicity-seeking? Some of the
greatest self-promoters in history have been determined.
Remember 'Triumph of the Will'?

 >She, or anyone else, would have to be one sick puppy to undergo
 >such a _grueling_ endurance test for "publicity".

Can't argue with you here.

<snip>

 >I don't think that you, or anybody else is justified in jumping
 >to the conclusion that her motives are as selfish and self
 >serving as going on this fast in an attempt at getting some
 >cheap "publicity". There is no evidence that such is the case -
 >_so_far_. Let's wait and see how the whole thing plays out over
 >time.

I know what you were trying to say in the above, John, but the
fact is that anybody who would go on a public fast to get the
President of the United States to do something has clearly done
something to get some publicity, cheap or not.

The size of her ego seems fairly well established. The only
question would seem to be her motivation.

It reminds me of the quote attributed to Winston Churchill, made
to a back-bencher in the opposing party. I'm paraphrasing here
for this family newspaper, "We've already astablished what you
are, madame. Now we're just haggling over the price".

You don't attempt to generate personal publicity at the expense
of the President of a country without being part and parcel of a
publicity stunt. And you don't put yourself in the middle of
such stunts on the presidents of two countries without being a
serial egotist.


Clear skies,

Bob Young








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                 Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:51:19 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:23:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze -


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze
 >Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 20:12:55 -0500

 >>From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze
 >>Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:50:34 -0400

 >>>Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:34:15 -0400
 >>>Subject: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze
 >>>To: bravehrt@concentric.net, sqquishy@altavista.com
 >>>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>

 ><snipped>

 >>Now, suddenly, this makes Shevardnadze a "UFO personality," even
 >>though no other time, as far as I know, was he associated in any
 >>way with UFOs or ufology. And it makes his appearance in
 >>Washington at the same time as Lara Johnstone's "a strange
 >>coincidence."

 >>Credulous people, it seems, are ready to believe just about
 >>anything.

 >This is forgetting why we're credulous in the first place, Mr.
 >Sandow. Perhaps a few of these credulous people are tired of
 >being kept in the dark and fed the usual dung (hapless mushrooms
 >anticipating the harvest) and would attempt _some_ kind of
 >proactive stance in an effort to alleviate their aggregate
 >ignorance. It's plain that it's a fools game to wait around for
 >the ufological luminaries (those haughtily bereft of that
 >disdained credulity) to do so.

 >Again, the hunger strike is not the issue. The issue is what
 >precipitates the hunger strike. The woman is not the problem,
 >the _problem_ is the problem

Sirs,

The hunger strike should not be the issue. Some have made it so.
The issue is what precipitated the hunger strike. The woman is
the problem because some have made it so. Under the guise of
wimping clear concern for the lady's health, a concern which
would be noble were it not for the fact that it is none of
anyone's business what she does with her mouth, that what
matters is what she does with her intellect and her soul.

Those who express concern for her health should take note. It
would be a greater nobility to support her in her cause rather
than infringe upon her choice of demonstrating her own
intellectual concern. As if she were some child who did not know
what the hell she was doing in this matter.

No, I think Mr. Lehmberg, that rather than concern, some seek to
enoble their own practice by detracting (for that is what it is)
from her statement. An adult woman. Doing something difficult
for what she believes.

I just checked in, by the by, on our stalled wart, Gesundt. He
was attempting to suck the fuzz off a peach. He shall require
serious monitoring if he is to succeed as has Lara.

I support Lara. I don't support Gesundt. For there is a need for
such as her. And there should not be a need for such as he.


Jim











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              Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:58:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:28:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Stacy


 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze
 >Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:50:34 -0400

<snip>

 >Now, suddenly, this makes Shevardnadze a "UFO personality", even
 >though no other time, as far as I know, was he associated in any
 >way with UFOs or ufology. And it makes his appearance in
 >Washington at the same time as Lara Johnstone's "a strange
 >coincidence."

 >Credulous people, it seems, are ready to believe just about
 >anything.


Greg,

Couldn't something along the same lines be said for the
rendering of Jose Perez de Cuellar as an otherwise unwilling
"UFO personality"?

But wait, we now have this:

"On Saturday, September 8th, at our first IF seminar of the fall
season, Budd Hopkins will present dramatic new information from
previously silent witnesses in this extraordinary case.

"In addition to these important new witness accounts, Budd will
also offer evidence that Linda Cortile and 'Richard', one of the
government agents involved in this encounter, separately gave
full accounts of the abduction to the most powerful Catholic
prelate in the United States - New York's Cardinal O'Connor.
Further, the Cardinal's close connection with the Vatican makes
it virtually certain that details of that night were made known
to the Pope, and that the Vatican's recent public interest in
theological issues raised by the 'theoretical' discovery of
alien intelligence is a direct result of this November 30, 1989,
event."

Note that the Cardinal will not be able to say anything publicly
in response to such allegations, thereby no doubt lending
further 'credence' to his (and the Vatican's) involvement.

Note, also, how this material is being presented. We understand
and sympathize with the fact that this isn't the sort of
material that could be expected to appear in the next issue of
Nature. At the same time, we descry its commercialization, its
use as a lure to the "next revelation."

This is _not_ the way science is done -- although, all too
increasingly, it seems to be the way ufology is done.

Shevardnadze should feel flattered. After all, along with
Cardinal O'Connor, the Pope, the head of the UN, Linda and
Richard, he's keeping rather exclusive company.


Dennis Stacy












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             Re: Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike - Furlotte

From: David Furlotte <furry@nobelmed.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 23:11:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:30:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike - Furlotte


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:06:19 EDT
 >Subject: Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Gesundt begins hunger strike in order to compell others not to
 >do hunger strikes because it's bad for your health. Gesundt, in
 >a touching rendition of "taps" played through bottles of Gripple
 >Dripple Sin Gas, Gesundt told reporters that it's really OK to
 >go on a hunger strike, providing you get the permission of those
 >who don't think it's such good idea.


Jim,

This is in very poor taste. I don't believe that Lara is going
to get much accomplished and I am concerned about her health
through this hunger strike but this kind of humour is
self-deprecating and an insult to her.


Dave (Furry) Furlotte









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                  Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 03:01:28 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:34:31 -0400
Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Gates


 >Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:37:41 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 01:32:19 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>I don't understand. On one hand Dave and Andy claim Georgia is
 >>"puffing" magazine sales and "buy the magazine" yet all they
 >>appear to do is puff flyingsaucery.com and 'go to our web site.'
 >>Gee, I can't tell much difference between what they critique and
 >>what they do!

 >I suppose one possible difference is that the website is free to
 >anyone who dips in, but the magazine costs money?

True, but the point was that on one hand they berate Georgia for
promoting her article or whatever then they turn around and
promote themselves and their web site. Whether its free, or pay
for, doesn't make that much difference in that regard.


Cheers,

Robert










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                Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:22:02 +1000
Fwd Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:39:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -


 >From: David Wachenschwanz <ploot@atomiccafe.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure
 >Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:15:04 -0500


 >Let me understand this. Someone is not eating because she
 >believes that by starving herself, she can persuade the
 >government to disclose all here-to-now "secret" information
 >concerning UFOs, et al? Is that correct?

 >If so its noble, but stupid.

 >If the government had such "undisclosed" information (assuming
 >there is any truth to the UFO phenomenon) do you or anyone here
 >_really_ believe they would bend on this issue? People have been
 >killed or "removed" for lesser deeds by the government. The
 >government doesn't care if some "nut" starves herself. In their
 >view the "problem" will take care of itself when she draws her
 >last breath.

Governments and alike, fear one individual more than one would
think. It was one person that died on a cross whom changed the
way we think about religion. It was also one person that
defeated Goliath and one person that proved the earth was round
and not flat. There are many more examples I can give but I
think every one here gets my point. So one person can make a
difference.

It is said, that, the greatest number of all is _one_.

I have no doubt that there are people monitoring the situation
of the hunger strike on behalf on the government in question and
that they would be concerned with its out come. I wish the lady
undertaking this brave if not extreme measure all the best.

But I agree with many others here, when it comes to her well
being. Her life is worth more than the information she seeks;
also there may be a greater reason as to why they censor such
information.

Perhaps it is not so much the governments that hide much of this
from us, but in many cases it is religious institutions that
don't want this information coming forth. They, after all, stand
to lose the most from such things as Aliens becoming fact
instead of fiction.

I was at this point going to rave on at how one should take into
account the bigger picture when considering such explosive
subjects and does the end justify the means? But maybe it is
time the world knew the truth; we are a strong people and will
adapt to change.

I do however don't want any harm to come to this brave women,
but sometimes governments and alike will not take notice until
something of an extreme nature happens.

So Good Health to you Lara.

Still I cannot help but wonder what the people of Earth will
make of the truth if it is made available to them. Sometimes the
truth is too much to handle.

Note to the males of the list; trust a women like Lara to be the
one getting it _done_, while us males sit around the campfire
sipping long necks and just talking about getting it done.


Cheers,

Chris









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               Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data -

From: Diana Cammack <cammack@eomw.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:26:29 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:45:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data -


 >Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 19:26:23 -0400
 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
 >Subject: Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Element 118 (And 116?) Just Spurious Data
 >>Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 15:49:47 +1000


Note that The Economist magazine, 11 Aug 2001, has an article,
'The Periodic Table: 10 x-15 Seconds Of Fame', about Lawrence
Berkeley National Lab in California having retracted their claim
to have created two new elements because they are unable to
reproduce their original experienment and their re-analysis of
their data is 'disappointing'.

The Economist is citing a letter sent by Ken Gregoich to
Physical Review Letters. The article says that element 118 "has
been yanked un-ceremondiously off the [periodic] charts" though
Russian researchers in Dubna, have produced atoms of element 114
and 116 surviving several seconds.


Diana











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                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 01:02:20 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:48:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Hatch


 >Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 07:48:55 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris

 >>Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:45:27 -0700
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris

<snip>

 >>It turned out that the perp had looked up the same records, and
 >>carefully woven those unlikely facts into his own fantasia,
 >>clearly in the hope that someone would find the missing meter
 >>records independently!
 >>- Larry Hatch

 >>PS: Please don't hold me to precise details. This is completely
 >>from fuzzy memory [burp!] but I believe I have the general gist
 >>of it.

 >You're quite right. I don't have a reference to hand either, but
 >the incident was one of the formative cases in the long-running
 >UMMO hoax.


Hello John:

As I understand it, the Ummo hoax was so elaborate and complex,
in many ways self consistent, that it would have been child's
play for them to go look up some oddball item in police or news
records.

They may have planted or discovered a dozen clever tricks and
woven them into their byzantine tapestry.

If/when some honest researcher finds any one of them, its
instant corroboration, from an independent source no less!

Tricksters, "psychics" and cult gurus are full of tricks like
that. They don't really want or need to jam beliefs up your
nose.

Its so much better and easier to "salt the mine" and let the
pigeons discover "confirming evidence" later.

I hate all this because it only muddies the waters, and knocks
more sensible ufological debate right off the tracks.


Best

- Larry Hatch (dot net.. ahem!)









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                Re: Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:16:34 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:55:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements - Bruni


 >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements
 >Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:19:33 +0100

 >Georgina Bruni has recently 'had a go' at our website using Nick
 >Pope as ammunition for her claim that we have "misinterpreted"
 >the MOD file.

This is absolutely not true. The analysis is a total
misinterpretation of the MOD file. One does not need an excuse.

 >You may also like to click on:
 >http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4246130,00.html
 >Where there is an on line article, taken from today's Guardian
 >newspaper, dealing with Dave Clarke's discovery and analysis of
 >the MOD Rendlesham files.

Let's get this clear so that List members know the truth. Dave
Clark did not exactly _discover_ the MOD file, and I think it's
sad that he needs to promote this untruth. The real truth is
that Lord Hill-Norton was responsible for the release of the MOD
file, and I have been working with Lord Hill-Norton since last
year, and I know the history, and how much work has gone into
the release of this file. Clarke has no idea the pressures put
on the government for the release.

What happened was that Clarke applied for the file after it was
re-opened on the 1st November 2000, when senior defence
ministers were concerned about my book (the full story is
featured in the paperback of 'You Can't Tell The People',
published in November 2001. After the file was sent from the
archives it was then reviewed because of Questions in the House
of Lords relating to my book. After much pressure (apart from
the Questions) Baroness Symons released the file. So _anybody_
using the right code can acquire the file.

Reference to its release date from the archive is also stated on
the front cover of the file.

I have spent the last few days trying to undo the debunking that
Clarke has done in the Guardian article and on his website. I
was asked to talk to a journalist from The Guardian two weeks
ago but refused because I know their take on this subject. This
was the very newspaper that debunked the case when Ian Ridpath
fed them the 'lighthouse theory' in 1985.

It is a pity that the broadsheets don't take this case
seriously. Over the last month or so, five top journalists have
had the story, and two have written it up for publication, only
to have it pulled at the last minute. Unfortunately, the only
national paper that ran the story without debunking it was the
Star - a tabloid. I have to question why, but am of the opinion
that this sort of evidence makes the editors nervous.

Anyway, just to set the record straight, and turn around the
debunking, I have done several radio interviews, contributed to
a TV documentary on UFOs, done two television news shows and
managed to have the story published in the East Anglian
newspapers. It is also the lead story in UFO Magazine, where you
can read, what I consider to be a more accurate report and
analysis. For people in the West Midlands I will be discussing
the file on the BBC Radio Late Show on Friday evening at 9.30pm.


Georgina









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                  Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:16:37 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:59:23 -0400
Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Bruni


 >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements
 >Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:19:33 +0100


 >Instead of choosing to 'tell the people', it's more a case of
 >telling the people to 'buy the magazine'. Georgina's
 >announcement has more to do with puffing up magazine sales than
 >any real desire for you, the ufological public, to read the
 >facts. Mrs Thatcher would be proud of her entrepreneurial
 >acumen!

This is a silly statement. I have no shares in UFO Magazine.

 >The 'comments' by James Easton and Jenny Randles are
 >totally distinct from the Rendlesham File and Dave's
 >commentary. Their views are not necessarily shared by either
 >Dave or myself but both have been major players in the
 >Rendlesham investigation and should be carefully listened to.

James Easton has done nothing more than attempt to debunk the
case. In twenty years Jenny Randles has never interviewed any
primary USAF witnesses. She talked to Burroughs briefly when she
met him at a UFO conference, and Charles Halt, briefly when she
met him at the Strange But True? party. Jenny's take on the
Rendlesham file is completely erroneous. She even states on the
website that Steve Roberts has never come forward. That's
nonsense, his story, told from my interviews with him a few
years back, is featured in a chapter in my book, titled _The
Mysterious Steve Roberts_.

List members will be interested to know that Ms. Randles wrote
letters to the MOD, where she tried to discredit other
researchers, claiming they lacked knowledge, experience and
credible public relations. In exchange for information she
offered to use her books and articles to make the MOD look good
in the eyes of ufologists, defusing the opinion held by
ufologists that the MOD was involved in a cover up. And that's
just for starters.

She wanted the information for herself and did not want you to
get it. If Stanton Freidman was upset with the letter she wrote
to the journalist, UFO groups will be outraged to see her
letters to the MOD.I suspect she never thought these
embarrassing letters would be released.

 >Despite Georgina's witterings, we have offered her the space to
 >put her side of the story on our site and she has accepted.
 >Once, of course it's been sold to you, along with the tea
 >towel, personalised handbag, and video, via UFO Magazine!

There is no way that I would allow my material to be used on a
debunking website. www.rendleshamincident.co.uk will be launched
in November and will feature all the evidence for the case.


Best wishes,

Georgina Bruni








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                          Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #353

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 07:21:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 09:13:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #353


Alfred's Odd Ode #353 (August 31, 2001)

I am pilloried for passions that I have for different drummers,
and suspect that I'm denied poetic right. My rhythms are
discomfiting for some, perhaps contentious, but the song it
sings is filled with will to fight. What's there is only _there_
because I sing it in a song. What I would express can come out
righteous, clean, and strong. My points have different colors,
and the points that should be made (?) ... in SONG they have a
quality crossing flowers with grenades.

Now how much should I have to pay, to say these words this way?
And what's the price exacted for expression? What becomes my
crime that's just too heinous to allow, to justify the purging
and suppression? It's true I have a conscience that I wear upon
my sleeve. It's true I'd split the heavens; it's true I'd soar
and cleave. It's true I find religion's just a cop-out and a
drag; it's true there's only guile that's implied by ANY flag!

It's true I'd love autonomy and the freedom it implies, but
that's just not allowed by those who rule. These selected men
and women blessed with birthright are conniving... to insure
themselves a future. We're the tool. Their clever orchestrations
are profound and plainly seen. They decide intolerance, so it's
them defines obscene. They would write your script and they
would tell you what to think; you're just for their utility.
Behind, they nod and wink.

It's true that I would, just as soon, NOT live my life that way.
There's just no honor in it, it would seem. Based on lie's
invention to manipulate control, it's a carny-pitch divergence
from my dream. I dream of satisfaction that is righteous and
complete. I dream of the forthcoming, and the loss of all
conceit. I dream we fill the emptiness with the wealth of what
we know, and that SECRETS wrongly hidden are exposed to flash
and glow.

It's true that I believe, my friend, that WE ARE NOT ALONE, and
thinking such as that gets hard to bear. But I rise up every
morning with some coffee for my spark, and I fix the starry
skies with eyes and stare. What would you expect from me? I've
eyes and I can see, and well read and educated, I discover I'm
not free. With ears to match and listening I've found a cosmic
road, and on that trek I'm finding out I won't be cowed or
bowed.

...Disgust with rhyming verse is not my problem, understand? A
song's a weave of rhythm and some verse. It seems to me that
problem rests with others who would dictate how I tell you what
I think, and that's perverse. Everyone can take the time... to
see a different way. Everyone should have their choice to
double, put, or stay... Everyone's enhanced anew with choices
they could make... to fertilize real learning and improve a
person's break.

But I must fill a mold that's pressed down HARD upon my soul; it
doesn't matter what perceptions are. A universe, before me,
stands ignored in an indifference that would smother up the
outburst of a star! And I'm supposed to pack my brain in cakes
of social ice and validate hypocrisy to go along... be nice? If
yes, be disappointed. I'd be true, at least, to self -- to have
respect for others, one must first respect oneself!

I am a poet warrior... my blades are sharpened words, I'm not
apologetic; I'm obverse. All that I would wish for is the simple
honest insight that I'm chanting here, with you, to lift the
curse. The curse is the *unknowing* that we labor with, you see?
The curse is the erosion of the stuff that makes us free. The
curse is persecution of divergence we all need... to aerate
potential, be not bored -- improve the breed!

Now I'm expected dutifully to make a place for you, except you
as the standard -- how it's done... But where are all your
colors and your levels or your deepness? Where is richness?
Where is learning? Where's the fun? Your thinking's all
peripheral, and bereft of any depth. Your focus is too narrow,
and it seems you're scared too death. You make me pay the sordid
freight for all those fears you have, and keep me from a
livelihood that I, by right, should have.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

Good News!
by /\lfred Lehmberg
www.alienview.net

I have good news, and just news. First, the news...

For the last several years I've risen early in an attempt to
philosophically recapture my time for a more efficient utility.
It works splendidly. Recharged at the beginning of each day, I
write my commentary, study, and paint.

Out of bed by 2:15 usually, the obligatory morning activities
complete, and with a cup of strong coffee made, I am outside
(assuming clear skies) to pointedly meditate, stargaze, and
sky-watch. The preceding three activities are NOT mutually
exclusive. It's the best part of my day.

For a period of sixty to ninety minutes every morning, then, I
contemplate my current piece or essay, learn the positions of
the stars and constellations, and look for UFOs. I've seen the
damnedest stuff. One will, you know, when one takes the time to
actually look. I'd found it unavoidable, actually, until just
recently.

I'd kept records of my sightings for about a year, but gave it
up ultimately because the trend of the sightings was so sharply
up. The recording seemed superfluous. I saw something peculiar
(or three) every morning I went out. It'd gotten almost
perfunctory. Almost...

The reader is assured that I saw nothing but that which is
personally conclusive. Indeed, all I ever saw were the
Nocturnal Lights defined by Allen Hynek (the least in category
as he conceived them), but they were acting damned strange for
all their distance, and I never got bored, even remotely,
looking for them. I always anticipated them gleefully --
childishly. As a fifty-three year old retired soldier who saw
combat in Viet Nam, I value whatever tatter of my childishness
remains...

But it's been a week now of adequately observable skies, and I
have had but ONE sighting of those fretfully moving nocturnal
lights. Just one, and it was a weak one at that...

Astonishing! I was seeing them two and three at a time, and on
one occasion last month in northern California between ten and
fifteen of them flew by overhead at varying magnitudes of speed,
color, and brightness. The preceding occured in just one ninety
minute period! Recently (days ago), in Alabama, three flew over
simultaneously in a slowly rotating locked triangle. I'd been
seeing them steadily for months, and now, overnight, they're
gone! Where did they go?

I used to try to convince myself that I was seeing only
satellites, space stations, or bolides. But it was their
fretful flying style (their nervous and unblinking transitions
across the sky) that suggested strongly that I was seeing
something else. Subtle speed and direction changes were the
hallmarks of these objects, and I reasoned that that precluded
aircraft, satellite, space station, and meteor. But, even
assuming that they were the objects just dismissed... where did
they all go?

Now the good news.

While in California last month, and at my favorite used book
store, I stumbled on a copy of Dr. J. Allen Hynek's book "The
UFO Experience." If that name rings a bell, it should. That's
the author (and the book) that inspired Steven Spielberg's
milestone film, "Close Encounters of the Third Kind."

I've read excerpts from that book for years, and understood that
Dr. Hynek was a no-nonsense scientist of the first water, was a
respected academician, and was a man decidedly divorced from any
hint of quackery or kookdom. Even J. Edgar Hoover had to give
him a clean bill of health regarding loyalty, professional
competence, and attitude. This was despite the fact that Hynek
spelled his little used first name "Josef..."

This "clean bill" regarded a required security check necessary
for a top secret clearance, in turn pursuant to employment with
the United States Airforce's so-called UFO investigation effort
in the sixties. Hynek was in at the ground floor.

Dr. Hynek was a probable ringer that the Airforce thought they
had employed to help them debunk the study of UFOs. Presumably,
Dr. Hynek would be another scientific nail in Ufology's coffin
not unlike like the good Doctor Edward Condon, a suspicious
skepti-bunker of singular refinement. As it turned out Hynek
would demonstrate that the Government had another "think"
coming.

Hynek WAS a scientist, after all. The non-elected government
hadn't counted on that. He employed the scientific method as
did most of the other *scientists* employed, but HE would go
where the data led, consider evidence that did not agree with a
favored hypothesis, and call a bona fide unknown a bona fide
unknown. Condon, on the other hand, refused pointedly to go
where the data led, would NOT consider evidence that countered a
favored hypothesis, and went out of his way to label a bona fide
unknown as probable "swamp gas." Hynek was more scientifically
judicious with those kinds of pronouncements, and was therefore
bullied, misquoted, and pushed further from the ufological
point.

Condon was a minion of an established intelligence community
with a social axe to grind. Hynek was a teacher, a leader, and
a seeker of the wider scientific horizon. A man always
endeavoring to employ an alien view, I evaluate the two
gentlemen as dispassionately as I can. Which of these two would
the reader pay to do their science for them? The answer is a
classification of sorts, a blessing or an indictment --
forgetting that the question itself is blatantly rhetorical...

I must weigh the veracity, capability, and contribution of the
one against the other and put my money on the better horse.
Anything else is irrational, illogical, and NOT scientific.
Herein lies that aforementioned good news.

Those nocturnal lights that I said I had been observing? Well
-- it is very possible that I AM seeing just what I SAID I had
been seeing. It's not *proof* mind you. But it is quite clear
that there is, and always has been, something there to be seen,
in fact! So says the winning horse at any rate. Condon's nag
stalled at the first water hazard and pitched her rider overhead
and into a fetid skein of floating moldy road apples...

The good news is that you can look for these things -- nocturnal
lights, daylight disks, and Close Encounters types I, II, and
III with a clear conscience and a steady confidence! They ARE
actually out there to be seen. It's bad science to maintain that
they are NOT (and have never been) there! It's good science to
be convinced that they exist, and interacting with human beings
in some way we've yet to figure out. The game is truly afoot,
good reader!

That's the good news! You're NOT necessarily a loon, or a kook,
or a bonehead. You're not unavoidably a lamebrain, a wacko, or
a dimwit! You're not inescapably a weirdo, a nut or a
screwball! Oh, you could still be ALL of those things, but not
because you believed that there was evidence demonstrating the
existence of UFOs. It's OK to be interested. It's OK to
speculate on their potential, their possibility, and their
prerogatives.

It's OK, really. A REAL scientist says so. It's science, after
all. Read on!

~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the scurrilous.








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                            Bonsall UK UFO Back?

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 09:44:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 09:44:45 -0400
Subject: Bonsall UK UFO Back?




From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>


Source: Matlock Today - UK

http://www.matlocktoday.co.uk/fullstory.asp?storyid=11

Another Sighting!

[image]

Is the Bonsall UFO back in the Dales?

Has the infamous Bonsall UFO been seen above the Dales skies
once more?


In October last year the Mercury reported how a disc-shaped
object had been captured on video over Bonsall Moor for more
than six minutes, just hovering quietly in the sky.

Some experts have hailed the footage as "the best UFO video
ever" and it has been the subject of national and international
interest.

And on Monday night, Matlock landlady Karen Sismey looked out
over the veranda from the Thorn Tree Inn on Jackson Tor Road to
spy a similar object in the same area.

"My husband Phil had been out there at around 10.45pm when he
saw something hovering in the sky, so he shouted me and I came
out with my binoculars," said Mrs Sismey.

"It was over Bonsall and it must have been just there for a good
15 minutes.

"It was showing very vivid colours with red at the bottom, and
then ranging from emerald and blue colours to a bright lemon
yellow."

The object was seen by other visitors to the Thorn Tree,
including a BBC cameraman filming in the area - but
unfortunately he did not have his camera to hand.

"It was too far away to say how big it was but it must have been
big for me to be able to see it," Mrs Sismey added.

"It was not a helicopter or an aeroplane and I know that it
shouldn�t normally be there."












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                  Re: Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 10:59:07 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:11:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike -


 >From: David Furlotte <furry@nobelmed.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike
 >Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 23:11:18 -0400

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:06:19 EDT
 >>Subject: Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Gesundt begins hunger strike in order to compell others not to
 >>do hunger strikes because it's bad for your health. Gesundt, in
 >>a touching rendition of "taps" played through bottles of Gripple
 >>Dripple Sin Gas, Gesundt told reporters that it's really OK to
 >>go on a hunger strike, providing you get the permission of those
 >>who don't think it's such good idea.

 >Jim,

 >This is in very poor taste. I don't believe that Lara is going
 >to get much accomplished and I am concerned about her health
 >through this hunger strike but this kind of humour is
 >self-deprecating and an insult to her.

 >Dave (Furry) Furlotte

Dear Furry, Errol, List,

You of all people, Dave, should recognize this piece for what it
is... a statement of angst in the form of satire, not aimed at
or even remotely construed as being aimed at, Lara (see my
previous posts on the subject for the thread) but against those
whom I consider should be targeted by satire... those who
detract from the very essence of what Lara is doing by invecting
their "concern" for the mature lady's health.

David... you surprise me. Read it again. You need only your
intellect and not some advanced degree to garner the garnet. You
got me so unimpressed, David, that I neglected to remove the
little '>>' for the Noble Bruce-Knapp... as I am want to do.


Morty









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                     Earth TV Now Reaching Nearby Stars

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:18:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:18:55 -0400
Subject: Earth TV Now Reaching Nearby Stars





From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>


Source: Rense.com

http://rense.com/general13/near.htm

Our Television Shows - An Alien Experience
By Charles Strum

The New York Times

8-31-1

Earth's early television and radio signals are beginning to
reach large clusters of stars about 300 trillion miles out in
space. That's 50 light years, or the distance light can travel
in 50 years.

This is good news. While we've heard nothing from the galactic
suburbs a few light years away, new worlds mean new audiences.
And, if they possess really good home-entertainment centers,
entire star systems of extraterrestrials are sitting in
recreation pods and learning about our world the way we did:
from Art Linkletter, Lucille Ball and Groucho Marx.

"Any sophisticated alien would be able to look at these images
and say 'There are pictures here,' " said Dr. Seth Shostak, an
astronomer at the California institute known as SETI (Search for
Extraterrestrial Intelligence). "Of course, the pictures would
be ambiguous in terms of what's up and what's down, what's left
and what's right. Titles might be backward.

"Maybe," he said, "the medium is the message in this case."

Maybe. But without a TV guide such as "Earth for Dummies," how
do you explain the difference between the Lone Ranger's mask and
the one Dorothy Kilgallen wears on "What's My Line?" And if
"Vitameatavegamin" or George Fenneman means nothing to you,
imagine how an intergalactic channel surfer might feel.

How do you account for canned laughter, Snooky Lanson or the
relationship between Paul Winchell and Jerry Mahoney?

In a sense, Shostak said, it would be like looking at primitive
cave drawings.

"You look at this thing on the wall," Shostak said. "A few
things are obvious. A man is chasing something. Then he's having
it for dinner. But you don't get the jokes, the personal
references, if there are any. It's gone with the culture."

If that's the case, future generations of extraterrestrial
viewers will be struggling to understand why Lassie and Ed are
smarter than the people around them. By 2050, they will have
blinked past "This Is Your Life" and pondered "The Twilight
Zone," "Fantasy Island" and "The Teletubbies."

"The Complete Directory to Prime Time Network and Cable TV
Shows" (Ballantine Books, 2000) suggests that a lineup from the
1950s would confuse any alien with an antenna the size of
Manhattan.

Things start off well enough with a big-concept extravaganza
that explains who we are and what we're doing. It's "The
Marshall Plan in Action," 30 minutes of U.S. government film
that documents how we are helping rebuild a continent we just
spent six years flattening. This is followed by Billy Graham's
"Hour of Decision," which only takes a half-hour.

But continuity starts to run a bit off track with the mystery
show, "The Gallery of Mme. Lui-Tsong." "Suspense" is relieved by
"Danger," which is followed by "Amos 'n' Andy" and then "Strike
It Rich," a quiz show for charity cases.

They scream, they laugh, they cry. This is export-grade culture?

To be sure, mid-20th-century television has broad themes, the
most common being homicide. But genre programming is likely to
be just as confusing. Consider: "The Adventures of Ellery
Queen," "Charlie Wild, Private Detective," "Crime Syndicated,"
"Hands of Mystery," "Racket Squad," "Crime Photographer," "Crime
With Father." Each features a motionless body and 30 minutes of
confusion until the murderer is identified.

But how will an audience in space square fictional homicide with
"Gillette Cavalcade of Sports," which exhibits two boxers in
Madison Square Garden trying to kill each other, until one of
them appears to succeed? The motionless body on the canvas is,
qualitatively, no different from a corpse on "Martin Kane,
Private Eye." But there's no mystery. In fact, hundreds of
people around the ring are cheering.

"It doesn't worry me," Shostak said of the possible confusion.
"These signals, after all, are rather difficult to find. It's
much easier to find our military radar, though they are
considerably less interesting than `I Love Lucy.' "

Copyright � 2001 The Seattle Times Company
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