UFO UpDates
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   Sep

                          UFO UpDates Mailing List
                                  Sep 2001

  Sep 1:

   Re: Cydonian Imperative: 08-25-01 - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [54]
   Re: New Developments In Linda Abduction - - Sue Strickland [115]
   Newark Airport Radar Information - Colm Kelleher - NIDS [40]
   Re: Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements - Strickland - Sue Strickland
   [36]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - - Grant Cameron [71]
   Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Hall - Richard Hall [57]
   Re: Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike - Velez - John Velez [57]
   Re: Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike - Johnstone - Lara Johnstone
   [58]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - - Lara Johnstone [43]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - - Lara Johnstone [106]
   Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Clark - Jerome Clark [55]
   *U* Database Website Moved - Larry Hatch [33]
   Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - UFO UpDates - Toronto [39]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - - Alfred Lehmberg [56]
   Re: *U* Database Website Moved - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [11]
   Fast Correction - I'm In URL Hell! - Larry Hatch [8]
   Report On 'Seep' Features At Mars Society - Lan Fleming [63]
   Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Hatch - Larry Hatch [32]
   Re: New Developments In Linda Abduction - Young - Bob Young [35]
   Re: *U* Database Website Moved - Hatch - Larry Hatch [41]
   Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Bruni - Georgina Bruni [27]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Evans - Roger Evans [32]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - - Pat McCartney [49]
   Re: Newark Airport Radar Information - Hall - Richard Hall [22]
   The Rendlesham Lighthouse Redux - Georgina Bruni [26]
   Re: Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike - - Jim Mortellaro [63]
   In Defense Of The All-Too-Scarce Smile - Jim Mortellaro [116]
   Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Hall - Richard Hall [63]
   Cellular & Infrared Alert - Bruce Maccabee [75]
   'Strange Days... Indeed' Tonight - Hopkins & - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [14]

  Sep 2:

   Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Deardorff - Jim Deardorff
   [61]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - - Lara Johnstone [51]
   Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Cameron - Grant Cameron [61]
   Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Cameron - Grant Cameron [56]
   Re: New Developments In Linda Abduction - Velez - John Velez [62]
   Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [78]
   Re: Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements - Boreham - Robert Boreham [40]
   Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert - Young - YoungBob2@aol.com [20]
   Voyager Newsletter No. 20 [Extract] - James Easton [546]
   Re: Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements - Easton - James Easton [112]
   Re: New Developments In Linda Abduction - Gonzlez - Luis R. Gonzlez
   Manso [46]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Gonzlez Manso - Luis R. Gonzlez Manso [14]
   Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure - - Jan Pheneger [58]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Evans - Roger Evans [62]
   Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Georgina Bruni [108]
   Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Clark - Jerome Clark [70]
   Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert - Hatch - Larry Hatch [34]

  Sep 3:

   Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Cameron - Grant Cameron [87]
   Re: Ramey's Debris - Sparks - Brad Sparks [302]
   Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein
   [68]
   Lara Johnstone FAQ - Grant Cameron [115]
   Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [22]
   Dearborn Analysis & Reports On-Line - Todd Lemire [9]
   Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure - - Lara Johnstone [163]
   Gufology - Jan Aldrich [100]
   Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert - Velez - John Velez [56]
   Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - - Franois Parmantier [51]
   New EBE-ET Site - Thiago L. Ticchetti [10]
   Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Hall - Richard Hall [34]
   Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert - Young - Bob Young [44]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Young - Bob Young [48]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Young - Bob Young [22]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Young - Bob Young [17]
   Re: Lexington UFO Video - Ledger - Don Ledger [18]
   Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - - Jim Mortellaro [104]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - - Alfred Lehmberg [87]
   Newark Airport Radar Information - Ledger - Don Ledger [54]

  Sep 4:

   Re: Newark Airport Radar Information - Ledger - Don Ledger [30]
   Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert - Hatch - Larry Hatch [41]
   Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Hatch - Larry Hatch [67]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - - Alfred Lehmberg [35]
   No Joke - Richard Hall [21]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Evans - Roger Evans [20]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Cameron - Grant Cameron [57]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [19]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Johnstone - Lara Johnstone [108]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - - Lara Johnstone [38]
   Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Ledger - Don Ledger [21]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Johnstone - Lara Johnstone [34]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Evans - Roger Evans [28]
   Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee
   [45]
   Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure - - Jan Pheneger [23]
   Re: Newark Airport Radar Information - - David Wachenschwanz [60]
   Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [14]
   Re: Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements - Bruni - Georgina Bruni [18]
   '71 Garden Grove California Abduction - Luis R. Gonzlez Manso [15]
   Venturing From Shadows Into Light - UFO UpDates - Toronto [188]
   AA Puppet - Serge Salvaille [50]
   Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure - Velez - John Velez [238]
   Re: Close Encounters Of The Raelian Kind - Krmelj - Milos Krmelj [26]
   Re: No Joke - Blanton - Terry Blanton [20]
   Re: No Joke - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [60]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - - Serge Salvaille [53]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Clark - Jerome Clark [50]
   Secrecy News - 09/04/01 - Steven Aftergood [115]
   Re: Newark Airport Radar Information - Haley - Tim Haley [14]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - - Lara Johnstone [67]

  Sep 5:

   Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [29]
   CCCRN News: Formation Reports 2001 #8, 9, 10, 11 - Paul Anderson [52]
   Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - - Jim Deardorff [58]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [33]
   CCCRN News: Formation Reports 2001 #12, 13, 14, 15 - Paul Anderson [73]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - McCoy - GT McCoy [66]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Gates - Robert Gates [17]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 320 - Edoardo Russo [102]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [44]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Rimmer - John Rimmer [35]
   Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - - Franois Parmantier [91]
   Slowly We Turn - Jim Mortellaro [36]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Randle - Kevin Randle [51]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - - Alfred Lehmberg [124]
   Re: No Joke - Velez - John Velez [78]
   Bainbridge, Ohio Woman Tapes 'UFO' - UFO UpDates - Toronto [24]
   Re: Newark Airport Radar Information - Ledger - Don Ledger [29]
   Re: Newark Airport Radar Information - - David Wachenschwanz [36]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Evans - Evans [100]
   Re: Site Gives Scientists Outlet... - Velez - John Velez [24]
   Re: No Joke - Blanton - Terry Blanton [28]
   Re: No Joke - Young - Bob Young [39]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Young - Bob Young [30]
   Re: Bainbridge, Ohio Woman Tapes 'UFO' - Young - Bob Young
   <YoungBob2@aol.com< [7]
   Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais
   [28]
   Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais
   [46]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Evans - Evans [60]
   Re: No Joke - Velez - John Velez [60]
   Re: New Developments In Linda Abduction - - Sue Strickland [55]
   Re: Bainbridge, Ohio Woman Tapes 'UFO' - - David Wachenschwanz [16]
   Re: No Joke - Hall - Richard Hall [60]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Young - Bob Young [48]
   Re: New Developments in Linda Abduction - Hansen - George Hansen [68]
   Re: New Developments in Linda Abduction - Hansen - George Hansen [40]
   Re: Newark Airport Radar Information - Ledger - Don Ledger [44]

  Sep 6:

   National UFO Conference Update - SMiles Lewis [318]
   Re: Dearborn Analysis & Reports On-Line - Lemire - Todd Lemire [48]
   Another Cosmic Christ - Larry Hatch [54]
   Re: New Developments in Linda Abduction - - Sue Strickland [43]
   Re: No Joke - Karr - Nancy Karr [75]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Cameron - Grant Cameron [83]
   UFO Sightings OZ file 06.09.2001 - Diane Harrison - AUFORN [512]
   Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Deardorff - Jim Deardorff
   [57]
   Filer's Files #36 - 2001 - George A. Filer [444]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - - Serge Salvaille [61]
   Re: Bainbridge, Ohio Woman Tapes 'UFO' - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro
   [34]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Gates - Robert Gates [29]
   MUFON-CES: UFO Flap In Turkey - Hannes la Rue - MUFON-CES [15]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - - Alfred Lehmberg [238]
   Cosmos Re-entry Today - Bob Young [11]
   Space-Junk - Michael Woods [33]
   Secrecy News -- 09/06/01 - Steven Aftergood [113]
   Re: Dearborn Analysis & Reports On-Line - - Sue Strickland [59]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Rimmer - John Rimmer [22]
   Bainbridge UFO Video Update - Kenny Young [61]

  Sep 7:

   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Wachenschwanz - David Wachenschwanz [28]
   Re: No Joke - Hall - Richard Hall [35]
   Re: New Developments in Linda Abduction - Velez - John Velez [440]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Easton - James Easton
   [105]
   Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Evans - Roger Evans [57]
   Re: No Joke - Velez - John Velez [55]
   Re: Future Contact - Hale - Roy J Hale [16]

  Sep 8:

   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Clark - Jerome Clark [79]
   Sgt. Moody's Abduction? - Luis R. Gonzlez Manso [4]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Kaeser - Steve Kaeser [51]
   Lara Johnstone - Wendy Connors [20]
   CCCRN News: Formation Report 2001 #16 - Paul Anderson [20]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Sparks - Brad Sparks [158]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Haggard - Mike Haggard [35]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [41]
   "US Has Heavily Researched Anti-Gravity" - Todd Lemire [56]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke - Dave Clarke [76]
   Re: Lara Johnstone - Hatch - Larry Hatch [34]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke - Dave Clarke [76]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - - Andy Roberts [27]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Clark - Pat McCartney [32]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Wachenschwanz - David Wachenschwanz [51]
   X-PPAC Update - 9/7/01 - ExPPAC@aol.com [137]

  Sep 9:

   CE: - Wired News Covers UFO Disclosure - Brad Sparks [160]
   CE: Re: Wired News Covers UFO Disclosure - Jan Aldrich [127]
   Re: "US Has Heavily Researched Anti-Gravity" - - Jim Mortellaro [77]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Sparks - Brad Sparks [122]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Sparks - Brad Sparks [40]
   Re: X-PPAC Update - 9/7/01 - Hatch - Larry Hatch [27]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [63]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [61]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Young - Bob Young [40]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Rimmer - John Rimmer [53]
   Nazi UFOs And All That - Tim Matthews [46]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni - Georgina Bruni
   [28]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [105]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Velez - John Velez [86]
   World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris Recently? - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [28]
   Shuttle Astronauts Induction - UFO UpDates - Toronto [107]

  Sep 10:

   Debunkers Take Root In Hollywood - UFO UpDates - Toronto [53]
   New Staffordshire UFO Group Site - Graham Allan [12]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [62]
   Re: World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris - James Oberg [21]
   The Politicalization Of UFOs - Richard Hall [28]
   Re: World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris - Jan Aldrich [46]
   Re: CE: - Wired News Covers UFO Disclosure - Young - Bob Young [18]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - - Andy Roberts [31]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - - Nick Redfern [41]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke - Dave Clarke [153]
   Irony - Alfred Lehmberg [27]
   ET Politics In Clinton White House - Part 4 - - Grant Cameron [505]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Easton - James Easton
   [206]
   Re: World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris - Robert Gates [54]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - McCoy - GT McCoy [120]
   PRA - Night Vision Lab - Corso? - John Auchettl [94]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke - David Clarke [71]
   Re: Debunkers Take Root In Hollywood - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [18]
   Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [26]
   Re: "US Has Heavily Researched Anti-Gravity" - - Bill Hamilton [46]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Wachenschwanz - David Wachenschwanz [61]
   Re: World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris - John Velez [112]
   Re: Irony - Errol Bruce [75]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni - Georgina Bruni
   [65]
   Re: ET Politics In Clinton White House - Part 4 - - Terry Blanton [22]
   Re: Irony - Velez - John Velez [69]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [104]
   Re: "US Has Heavily Researched Anti-Gravity" - - Jim Mortellaro [61]
   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [109]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke - David Clarke [27]
   Re: The Politicalization Of UFOs - Velez - John Velez [72]
   Re: ET Politics In Clinton White House - Strickland - Sue Strickland
   [94]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Sparks - Brad Sparks [365]
   Re: Irony - Hall - Richard Hall [73]
   Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Jones - Sean Jones [27]
   Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike' - Grant Cameron [87]

  Sep 12:

   Words Fail - UFO UpDates - Toronto [2]
   Black Tuesday - John [10]
   Tragedy In The US - Sean Jones [15]
   Condolences - William Sawers [12]
   Terrorist Attack - Sharon Kardol [6]
   9-11 - A Date That A Nation Wept - David Furlotte [7]
   Hope - Serge Salvaille [5]
   Nightmare - GT McCoy [11]
   Re: Words Fail - Alfred Lehmberg [22]
   Re: Black Tuesday - Hall - Richard Hall [15]
   Re: Condolences - Gildas Bourdais [19]
   CCCRN News: Terrorist Tragedy in the US - Paul Anderson [46]
   Holy War - Wendy Connors [27]
   Re: Words Fail - Jean Meiners [9]
   Re: Tragedy In The US - John Velez [57]
   Condolences - Anthony Chippendale [10]

  Sep 13:

   To My Son - Dan Geib [17]
   My Thoughts Are With You - Adam Lowe [4]
   Re: Words Fail - Thiago Ticchetti [16]
   Re: Holy War - Serge Salvaille [22]
   Re: Black Tuesday - Sandow - Greg Sandow [35]
   Condolences - John Hayes [11]
   Re: Nightmare - Josh Goldstein [44]
   PayPal Relief Fund - Anthony Chippendale [9]
   Re: Black Tuesday - Larry Hatch [24]
   Re: Tragedy In The US - Scott Carr [43]
   Re: Black Tuesday - Don Ledger [23]
   "Either I'm Too Sensitive, Or Else I'm Gettin Soft" - Jim Mortellaro
   [30]
   Re: Tragedy In The US - William Sawers [18]
   Suicide Terrorists - Marty Murray [7]
   Why I Love My Country (USA) As Stated By A - John Velez [138]
   US Tragedy - Roy J Hale [5]
   My Way To Say It..... - David Furlotte [56]
   National UFO Conference Cancelled - SMiles Lewis [16]
   The Passing Of Gabriel Green - Joe McGonagle [51]
   Flying Objects - Josh Goldstein [48]
   Re: ET Politics In Clinton White House - Part 4 - Grant Cameron [31]
   Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Oberg - James Oberg [16]
   The Truth Is Here! - Andy Roberts [19]
   UFO Sightings OZ file - 06.Sep.2001 - Diane Harrison - AUFORN [499]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni - Georgina Bruni
   [44]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni - Georgina Bruni
   [62]
   Re: Jan Aldrich Post - Diana Cammack [20]
   Re: "Either I'm Too Sensitive, Or Else I'm Gettin - John Velez [22]
   Aftermath Of Attack - Bill Hamilton [50]
   Re: Flying Objects - Greg Sandow [19]
   Re: Tragedy In The US - Jan Pheneger [7]
   Atrocities - Andy Roberts [24]
   Re: Words Fail - Georgina Bruni [7]
   Re: "Either I'm Too Sensitive, Or Else I'm Gettin - GT McCoy [31]
   Re: Flying Objects - Sparks - Brad Sparks [120]
   The Story From Ground Zero... - Jsmortell@aol.com [124]
   Re: Atrocities - Dave Clarke [22]
   Re: Aftermath Of Attack - Bob Young [19]
   Re: "Either I'm Too Sensitive, Or Else I'm Gettin - Jim Mortellaro [63]

  Sep 14:

   Re: My Thoughts Are With You - Michail Gershtein [13]
   Are You Okay? - Royce J. Myers III [17]
   The Terrorist Tragedy - Chris Rolfe [18]
   Re: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike' - Randle - Kevin Randle [19]
   ET Politics In Clinton White House - Part 4 - - Grant Cameron [1021]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Easton - James Easton
   [189]
   Re: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike' - Evans - Evans [23]
   Re: CE: - Wired News Covers UFO Disclosure - - Nick Balaskas [92]
   Re: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike' - Gates - Robert Gates [106]
   Re: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike' - McCoy - GT McCoy [137]
   CCCRN News: Back From The Prairies - Paul Anderson [81]
   Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [50]
   Re: Irony - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [32]
   Re: World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris - Don Ledger [31]
   Re: Irony - Johnstone - Lara Johnstone [171]
   Re: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike' - Jones - Sean Jones [23]
   Re: Filer's Files #37 - 2001 - George A. Filer [473]
   Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Ledger - Don Ledger [32]
   Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - McCoy - GT McCoy [30]
   Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Jones - Sean Jones [20]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke - Dave Clarke [11]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Easton - James Easton
   [128]
   Image From Space Of Attack On Manhatten - Nick Balaskas [15]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Hale - Roy J Hale [12]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Easton - James Easton [38]
   Re: The Story From Ground Zero... - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [31]
   Re: Irony - Hall - Richard Hall [32]
   Re: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike' - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [54]
   Re: Are You Okay? - Wilson - Katharina Wilson [27]
   Re: Irony - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [64]
   Re: Irony - Velez - John Velez [243]
   Re: Words Fail - Cory - Cory Cameron [17]

  Sep 15:

   Re: Aftermath Of Attack - Lara Johnstone [121]
   Re: ET Politics In Clinton White House - Part 4 - Josh Goldstein [146]
   Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [27]
   Cydonian Imperative: 09-12-01 'Labyrinth Of Night' - Mac Tonnies [19]
   Secrecy News -- 09/12/01 - "Steven Aftergood" [133]
   Re: - Sharon Kardol [34]
   Unidentified Aircraft At Second WTC Attack - Brad Sparks [23]
   Secrecy News -- 09/14/01 - Steven Aftergood [94]
   Re: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike' - Chris - Christopher Kelly
   [183]
   Low Seat Uptake On Doomed Flights? - Joe McGonagle [8]
   Notes From A Newsroom - Michael Woods [56]
   And Another Thing... - Michael Woods [14]
   Re: Wired News Covers UFO Disclosure - Sparks - Brad Sparks [26]
   Re: Words Fail - Waskiewicz - John Waskiewicz [32]
   The Devil Made Them Do It - Bob Young [5]
   Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [87]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke - Dave Clarke [58]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke - Dave Clarke [50]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - - Joe McGonagle [16]

  Sep 16:

   Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Jones - Sean Jones [36]
   Re: Low Seat Uptake On Doomed Flights? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [39]
   Re: The Devil Made Them Do It - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [22]
   Reformed Grappa - Larry Hatch [71]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke - Dave Clarke [27]
   Re: ET Politics In Clinton White House - Part 4 - - Larry Hatch [60]
   Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Hatch - Larry Hatch [56]
   Re: Low Seat Uptake On Doomed Flights? - Jonach - Kurt Jonach [30]
   Re: Low Seat Uptake On Doomed Flights? - Fleming - Lan Fleming [23]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Rimmer - John Rimmer [26]
   Some Morons..... - Royce J. Myers III [16]
   Re: And Another Thing... - Shevlin - Collosus [32]
   Re: Are You Okay? - Myers - Royce J. Myers III [35]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni - Georgina Bruni
   [20]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni - Georgina Bruni
   [16]
   Re: Aftermath Of Attack - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [145]
   Re: Aftermath Of Attack - Evans - Roger Evans [75]
   Re: - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [55]
   Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [52]
   UFO Conference - New Jersey - Addenda - Tom Benson [11]
   'CAUS Alert: Looking Behind The Curtain' - Royce J. Myers III [31]
   Re: And Another Thing... - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [28]

  Sep 17:

   Re: The Devil Made Them Do It - Chris Kelly - Christopher Kelly [11]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Hale - Roy J Hale [30]
   Re: Low Seat Uptake On Doomed Flights? - - Jim Mortellaro [20]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni - Georgina Bruni
   [19]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni - Georgina Bruni
   [23]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni - Georgina Bruni
   [39]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni - Georgina Bruni
   [59]
   Re: And Another Thing - Woods - Michael Woods [7]
   On A Personal Note - John Velez [33]
   Re: Low Seat Uptake On Doomed Flights? - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [3]
   Re: Aftermath Of Attack - Myers - Royce J. Myers III [119]
   Re: CAUS Alert: Looking Behind the Curtain - - Wendy Connors [28]
   Re: Aftermath Of Attack - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [43]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke - Dave Clarke [91]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke - Dave Clarke [107]
   Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Young - Bob Young [23]
   Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Boreham - Robert Boreham [43]
   Resolution - Richard Hall [18]
   Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [90]
   Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [84]
   Secrecy News -- 09/17/01 - Steven Aftergood [56]

  Sep 18:

   Re: Resolution - McCoy - GT McCoy [24]
   Re: Resolution - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [103]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - - Joe McGonagle [24]
   Re: On A Personal Note - Furlotte - David Furlotte [44]
   Re: Resolution - Rimmer - John Rimmer [59]
   US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Bob Young [14]
   Re: Resolution - Clark - Jerome Clark [15]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke - Dave Clarke [39]
   Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Velez - John Velez [82]
   Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [44]
   Re: Aftermath Of Attack - Velez - John Velez [28]
   A Note To My Friends - Peter Robbins [28]
   Re: Resolution - Rimmer - "Richard Hall" [106]
   Re: Resolution - Hall - Richard Hall [106]
   Re: Some Morons..... - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [30]
   Re: Resolution - Velez - John Velez [124]
   Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Rutkowski - Chris Rutkowski
   [27]
   Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Wendy Connors [27]

  Sep 19:

   Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Young - Bob Young [38]
   Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Young - Bob Young [20]
   CCCRN News: Formation Report 2001 #17 - Paul Anderson [50]
   Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [43]
   Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [29]
   Secrecy News -- 09/18/01 - Steven Aftergood [96]
   www.mactonnies.com - Mac Tonnies [11]
   Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Cammack - Diana Cammack [39]
   Re: Undisputed Facts in Ufology - Connors - Wendy Connors [80]
   Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Ledger - Don Ledger [28]
   Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Young - Bob Young [47]
   Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Chris Kelly - Chris Kelly [63]
   Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Velez - John Velez [79]
   Re: Resolution - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [296]
   Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Young - Bob Young [15]
   Re: Undisputed Facts in Ufology - Ledger - Don Ledger [89]
   US UFO Sighting During Grounding - Jan Pheneger [86]
   Connors' Undisputed Facts in Ufology - Wendy Connors [67]
   PRG Update - September 19, 2001 - Stephen G. Bassett [108]
   Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro
   [49]

  Sep 20:

   Coincidental Or What? - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [23]
   Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Young - Bob Young [21]
   Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Rutkowski - Chris Rutkowski
   [23]
   Filer's Files #38 - 2001 - George A. Filer [444]
   Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Young - Bob Young [22]
   Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Bird - Mike Bird [82]
   Re: Low Seat Uptake On Doomed Flights? - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [5]
   New URL For Cydonian Imperative! - Mac Tonnies [10]
   Re: Undisputed Facts in Ufology - Sparks - Brad Sparks [170]
   Re: PRG Update - September 19, 2001 - Sparks - Brad Sparks [71]
   UFOs & SF? - Raymond Perrez [13]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 325 - Edoardo Russo [92]
   Re: Coincidental Or What? - Sparks - Brad Sparks [11]
   Re: Coincidental Or What? - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [21]
   Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Cammack - Diana Cammack [61]
   Re: Connors' Undisputed Facts in Ufology - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg
   [222]
   Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Velez - John Velez [126]
   Re: Coincidental Or What? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [36]
   Re: PRG Update - September 19, 2001 - Bassett - Stephen G. Bassett [87]
   Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Velez - John Velez [99]
   People..... - Jim Mortellaro [46]
   Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Young - Bob Young [66]

  Sep 21:

   Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Deardorff - Jim Deardorff [36]
   Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Hatch - Larry Hatch [77]
   Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [94]
   Re: PRG Update - September 19, 2001 - Sparks - Brad Sparks [130]
   Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [82]
   CCCRN News: (Update) Formation Report 2001 #17 - Paul Anderson [71]
   Cydonian Imperative: 09-20-01 - Mac Tonnies [88]
   Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Cammack - Diana Cammack [135]
   How the Binch Stole Freedom (NOT!) - Terry Blanton [53]
   Chilbolton Code Analysis - Claude DiDomenica <removed--ebk> [18]
   Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Velez - John Velez [61]
   Happy 40th, Betty Hill - Ron Cecchini [2]
   Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Young - Bob Young [26]
   Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Ledger - Don Ledger [61]

  Sep 22:

   An Ideology - Jim Mortellaro [83]
   The Best News In The Whole World - Jsmortell@aol.com [21]
   STS 51, 75, 80? - Leigh Blackmore [7]
   Re: The Best News In The Whole World - Velez - John Velez [47]
   Re: STS 51, 75, 80? - Oberg - James Oberg [73]

  Sep 23:

   Re: The Best News In The Whole World - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [55]
   Re: STS 51, 75, 80? - Oberg - James Oberg [13]
   (Update #2) Formation Report 2001 #17 - Paul Anderson [63]
   Re: The Best News In The Whole World - Jones - Sean Jones [33]
   Re: AA Puppet - Rebecca - Rebecca [73]

  Sep 24:

   Erik Beckjord - A Man With No Shame? - Royce J. Myers III [82]
   Norwegian Search For 'Silent Helicopter' UFO - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [15]
   Re: Erik Beckjord - A Man With No Shame? - Gates - Robert Gates
   <RGates8254@aol.com [36]
   99 Pink Balloons - Tim Mathews [71]
   Re: Secrecy News -- 09/21/01 - Steven Aftergood [121]

  Sep 25:

   Re: AA Puppet - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [78]
   Tell Cookie - Jim Mortellaro [19]
   Re: Could These Account For Some UFOs? - Ron Cecchini [6]
   Re: 99 Pink Balloons - Hale - Roy J Hale [59]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Easton - James Easton [29]
   Antonio Ribera 1920 - 2001 - Edoardo Russo [9]
   Re: AA Puppet - Morris - Neil Morris [84]
   Re: AA Puppet - Rebecca - Rebecca [64]
   Re: 99 Pink Balloons - Rolfe - Chris Rolfe [22]
   Re: Norwegian Search For 'Silent Helicopter' UFO - - GT McCoy [33]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #353a - Alfred Lehmberg [15]
   Re: AA Puppet - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [41]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Hale - Roy J Hale [31]
   Norway Mystery 'Chopper' Crash, Etc. - Chris Rolfe [18]
   CCCRN News: Various Updates - Paul Anderson [92]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #353a - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [22]

  Sep 26:

   Re: AA Puppet - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [47]
   E.T. Life Seminars At York U. In Toronto - Nick Balaskas [23]
   Re: Secrecy News -- 09/25/01 - Steven Aftergood [79]
   Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Velez - John Velez [51]
   Re: AA Puppet - Morris - Neil Morris [51]
   Filer's Files #39 - 2001 - George A. Filer [521]
   UFO Fever Rises In Northern Norway - UFO UpDates - Toronto [34]
   Re: Chiles-Whitted - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [41]
   Linda 'Cortile' Is OK! - John Velez [31]
   Re: - James Bond Johnson [64]
   Caution - AA Autopsy - Jim Mortellaro [17]
   Are you OK, Linda? - James Bond Johnson [64]
   Current/Ongoing Abductions Among Listers? - Reed Hall [27]

  Sep 27:

   Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Sparks - Brad Sparks [21]
   Re: Current/Ongoing Abductions Among Listers? - - Sue Strickland [36]
   Re: Current/Ongoing Abductions Among Listers? - - Jim Mortellaro [94]
   Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [131]
   Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Hatch - Larry Hatch [83]
   'UFO' Sighted Over Jurong, Singapore - UFO UpDates - Toronto [37]
   Global Consciousness Project - Terry Blanton [19]
   Re: Norway Mystery 'Chopper' Crash, Etc. - McCoy - GT McCoy [7]
   Re: Current/Ongoing Abductions Among Listers? - - John Velez [103]
   Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [50]

  Sep 28:

   UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Nick Balaskas [69]
   Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Rebecca - Rebecca [23]
   Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Morris - Neil Morris [58]
   Cydonian Imperative: Mars Life Controversy - Mac Tonnies [85]
   Re: UFO Conference - New Jersey 10-6/7-01 Addenda - Tom Benson [15]
   THE WATCHDOG: Shameless Sellers Trying To Turn - Royce J. Myers III [4]
   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - - Bill Hamilton [36]
   Bubbling Seas Can Sink Ships - UFO UpDates - Toronto [57]
   Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Rebecca - Rebecca [21]
   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Sparks - Brad Sparks [34]
   Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Sandow - Greg Sandow [37]
   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Murray - Marty Murray [37]
   Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Morris - Neil Morris [37]
   Secrecy News -- 09/28/01 - Steven Aftergood [93]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #353b - Alfred Lehmberg [45]
   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Hale - Roy J Hale [19]

  Sep 29:

   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - - Mac Tonnies [21]
   Appelle - Aliens Among Us - UFO UpDates - Toronto [69]
   Atom Experiment Brings Teleportation Closer - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [39]
   Terrestrial Tragedy Different Context At UFO Expo - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [207]
   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Hatch - Larry Hatch [27]
   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Randle - Keevin Randle
   [14]
   CE: CAUS Bulletin: Court Sets 11-6-2001 to Hear - Tim Edwards [32]
   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - - Alfred Lehmberg [30]
   Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Morris - Neil Morris [67]
   Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - UFO UpDates - Toronto [37]
   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Hatch - Larry Hatch [53]
   National UFO Conference - SMiles Lewis [40]
   Re: Terrestrial Tragedy Different Context At UFO - SMiles Lewis [14]
   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - - Jim Mortellaro [36]
   Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [26]
   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - - Jim Mortellaro [76]
   Re: Terrestrial Tragedy Different Context At UFO - Alfred Lehmberg [46]
   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - - Mac Tonnies [14]
   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Randle - Kevin Randle [58]
   Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Morris - Neil Morris [42]
   CCCRN News: Midale, Saskatchewan Field Reports - Paul Anderson [365]
   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser
   [20]
   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - - Alfred Lehmberg [40]

  Sep 30:

   Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Randle - Kevin Randle [62]
   Re: Bubbling Seas Can Sink Ships - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [118]
   EW - Photos of Snowy Dirtballs - Kurt Jonach [127]
   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - - Mac Tonnies [20]
   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [13]
   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Jones - Sean Jones [35]
   THE WATCHDOG (e-update) - 09-30-01 - Royce J. Myers III [20]

   The number enclosed in brackets is the number of lines of new text in





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   Sep > Sep 1

                Re: Cydonian Imperative: 08-25-01 - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 31 Aug 2001 08:57:25 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 08:12:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: 08-25-01 - Hamilton


 >Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 22:23:04 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Cydonian Imperative: 08-25-01 - SETI Glyph Analyzed
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>


 >The Cydonian Imperative
 >8-25-01

 >Detail from "SETI" Glyph Analyzed
 >by Mac Tonnies

 >In the SETI crop glyph discussed in the previous article, the
 >portion of the code illustrating the "aliens'" presumed home
 >solar system is shown (see graphic below).

 >[image]

 >Corresponding with the schematic of our own solar system
 >transmitted in 1974, the graphic reveals a star at the far
 >right, with planets extending to the image's left. Like our
 >solar system, there are nine planets and one star, prompting
 >Richard Hoagland, in private correspondence, to volunteer that
 >this might be a representation of our own solar neighborhood.
 >The difference, obviously, is that the planets corresponding
 >with Earth, Mars, and Jupiter are elevated, denoting habitation.
 >(In the original transmission, the third planet from the
 >sun--Earth--is elevated, depicting the signal's planet of
 >origin.)

<snip>

 >end

There have already been many discrepancies discovered in this
SETI glyph. I have indicated from the start that I was leaning
toward a conclusion that it was an elaborate hoax or made by
alien dummies.

The most recent trounce on the message in the glyph came to me
from Dr. Bruce Cornet.

He says, referring to the chemical formulas for the nucleotides:

"Whether or not ETI could figure this out depends on their level
of knowledge and understanding of biochemistry. Because of some
mistakes in the code for Deoxyribose, Adenine, and Guanine, ETI
might not be able to figure out all the nucleotides correctly.
Deoxyribose has five Carbon atoms, but the "symbol" for it shows
seven Carbon atoms. Guanine has five Carbon atoms, but the
"symbol" for it shows four Carbon atoms. Likewise, Adenine has
five Carbon atoms, but the symbol for it shows only four Carbon
atoms. Within the DNA molecule (as opposed to separate from it),
Adenine has only four Hydrogen atoms (two attached to a Nitrogen
and one each attached to a Carbon), but the "symbol" shows it
having five Hydrogens. These may seem like small errors, but
when ETI attempts to figure out our DNA chemistry, those errors
are compounded enormously. If the Chilbolton signal crop
formation truly came from ETI, then it should have these errors
corrected if ETI possess the same DNA and biochemistry as
humans. The truth will be revealed in the errors. Drake may have
intentionally included these errors so that hoaxers might be
caught red handed. And so they seem to have been."

Full analysis with graphics and tables by Dr. Cornet may be
viewed at:

http://bcornet.homestead.com/files/Chilbolton/chilbolton.htm








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                  Re: New Developments In Linda Abduction -

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:11:42 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 08:29:42 -0400
Subject: Re: New Developments In Linda Abduction -


 >Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:28:38 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: George Hansen <gphansen2001@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: New Developments In Linda Cortile Abduction
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Intruders Foundation <IFConfer@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:41:18 -0400
 >>Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:37:37 -0400
 >>Subject: New Developments In Linda Cortile Abduction

 >Budd Hopkins just announced that Cardinal O'Connor has been
 >linked to the 1989 case of the UFO abduction of Linda Napolitano
 >(aka Linda Cortile). The site also has the 1993 critique of the
Linda case
 >by Stefula, Butler, and Hansen.

 >http://www.tricksterbook.com/ArticlesOnline/LindaCase.htm


Dear Dr. Hansen, Listers,

I think the following excerpt taken from the Acknowledgement of
Dr. Hansen's book, 'The Trickster and the Paranormal', says more
than the entire critque ever could. The argument is sophomoric
in analysis, if based solely on Philip J. Klass' participation.
Dr. Hansen, I can now understand why you chose to put the
Acknowledgements at the end of the paper. They are often missed
there.

"Acknowledgements: We would like to thank Philip J. Klass for
assistance..."

Compounding that error is the trite use of the Dungeons &
Dragons metaphor to argue your hypothesis. Groan. In the Cortile
case, Fantasy Theme as a method of rhetorical criticism, fails
to address the "chaining out" of events that continue to emerge
in this case (i.e., the recent announcement of the involvement
of Cardinal O'Connor in the UFO abduction case of Linda
Napolitano). By the way, Dr. Hansen, I went to the sites you
listed and found no mention nor update of Cardinal O'Connor's
participation. Perhaps I missed it? Can you fill us in?

Dr. Hansen, you stated in the Introduction to your book, "The
central theme developed in this book is that psi, the
paranormal, and the supernatural are fundamentally linked to
destructuring, change, transition, disorder, marginality, the
ephemeral, fluidity, ambiguity, and blurring of boundaries. In
contrast, the phenomena are repressed or excluded with order,
structure, routine, stasis, regularity, precision, rigidity, and
clear demarcation. I hesitate to offer this very general
statement because, by itself, it will almost certainly be
misinterpreted; much of the book is devoted to explaining it.

..."The phenomena are not to be tamed by mere logic and
rationality, and attempts to do so are doomed to failure."

..."Our way of thinking is governed by Aristotelian logic. It
too has a binary aspect; something is either A or not-A. In this
system, the "law of the excluded middle" specifies that there is
no middle ground. The betwixt and between is excluded from
thought. Our culture is rationalized; it prefers sharp
distinctions and clear boundaries. Even our modern theory of
communication is binary, and the term bit is short for binary
digit. Bit strings are nothing more than sequences of
differences or distinctions (i.e., 0s and 1s)."

..."Psi does not merely violate categories; rather subversion of
categories is its essence. As such, there are limits as to what
can be said about it within our typical logical frameworks."

If you honestly believe those statements, why use "Fantasy
Theme" to argue against the possible validity of the Linda
Napoliano case? I would guess that Philip Klass wrote that part
of the critique and not you. It is certainly more in keeping
with his style than your own.

Furthermore, the literary comparisons drawn between Nighteyes
and the Linda Napolitano case only further exemplify the
commonalities between abduction cases. As was recently pointed
out to me by a well-known sci-fi author, "just because it's (the
book is listed as) fiction, doesn't mean it isn't the truth." If
Nighteyes was presented as a fictional piece for publication,
perhaps it was done so to garner a greater market. It may have
been in toto an "in-truth" experience, or it may have been a
compilation of various _other_ abduction stories the author
used. Therefore the argument against the validity of the Cortile
case is badly weakened.

What the comparative analysis does succeed in doing is making
evident to the readers, and especially those having had
first-hand experience with abduction, is the extent to which the
minutia of abduction experiences commonly overlap, and which are
just as commonly overlooked in abduction cases by supposedly
competent investigators as a product of hoax, all in their naive
efforts to find structure and security in a prime example of the
"trickster's ability to blur the boundaries."

As an "experiencer" and "abductee" I can vouch for all of the
above statements you have made. Whether I believe you are
sincere or not is another question. Your use of Philip Klass'
opinions and/or material are evidence of your lack of sincerity.
But, you are at least to be given credit for doing the research
(I hope), even if you are only paying lip-service to the reality
of UFOs, their occupants and abductees.

You can trust my feelings and statements. Nothing on this plane
of reality, in our dimension can adequately define the
one-on-one ET experience. To try to do so is futile, as you say.
And so, to try to argue (pigeon-hole) the Linda (Cortile) case
into a possible hoax, using "fantasy theme" analysis, is not
only contradictory, it shows your own need to structure and
define. Perhaps that is why you are also a magician? Defining
the perceived boundaries of "what is possible" from the
"impossible" is what a magician does. Or did you just use this
ambiguity to lure Philip Klass into writing such a laughable
argument?

Obviously, you can believe what you want, whatever fits your
need for distinction and structure. I have found your
introduction most interesting, and have ordered your book. It
should arrive in a couple of weeks, and I look forward to doing
my own comparative analysis, putting your work through my
personal mental gauntlet based on first-hand ET experiences. If
nothing else, I expect to have a lot of questions to ask you,
Dr. Hansen. And, I will be paying close attention to your
analysis of NDEs as they relate to my own experiences, since
I've been clinically dead 4 times, and none of those NDEs
correlate well with my 10+ years as an abductee. Sincerely, Sue
Strickland, ex-abductee

P.S. If listers are interested in the topic of Fantasy Theme as
a method of rhetorical criticism, I would suggest reading
Bormann, Ernest G., 'Colloquy I. Fantasy and Rhetorical Vision:
Ten Years Later', Quarterly Journal of Speech, 68 (1982).










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   Sep > Sep 1

                      Newark Airport Radar Information

From: Colm Kelleher - NIDS <NIDS@lb.bcentral.com>
Date: 31 Aug 2001 19:08:50 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 08:34:04 -0400
Subject: Newark Airport Radar Information


On July 25, 2001, NIDS sent a FOIA request to the FAA requesting
radar tapes (Tracon) for the July 14-15, 2001 timeframe around
the Carteret UFO incident. NIDS also requested the tower voice
tapes for the same time period from Newark International
Airport.

Prior to receiving the FOIA data, NIDS received a preliminary
analytical report that details unidentified flying objects
without transponders detected on air traffic control radar in
the airspace around Newark International Airport on the night of
July 14-15, 2001. The report is summarized in table form below.

The following points are to be noted:

All times in the report are Zulu time (GMT). Subtract 4 hours to
get Carteret time for each data point.

Speed of the different objects is measured in knots (kts).

EWR refers to Newark International Airport.

_None_ of the objects in the table below had transponders.

By far the most noteworthy aspect of this communication is the
large number of objects detected that DO NOT have transponders
(all commercial aircraft have transponders) in the airspace
around Newark International at the same time that an estimated
seventy eyewitnesses on the New Jersey Turnpike and a further
fifty (estimated) witnesses from Staten Island reported
unidentified lights in the same area of sky.

A request to randomly check for aircraft without transponders at
the same time on a DIFFERENT night produced the result that
there were no objects without transponders in the air around
Newark International airport on that second, randomly chosen,
night.

This "control" study lends support to the notion that such a
large profusion of objects without transponders in the air
around one of the busiest international airports in the world is
unusual. Secondly, the fact that multiple objects without
transponders were in the same airspace while over one hundred
eyewitnesses on the ground were watching several unidentified
objects over Carteret may be of interest.

In addition, we now have interviews with 13 witnesses posted on
our website:

http://www.nidsci.org/news/newjersey_contents.html


National Institute for Discovery Science
www.nidsci.org








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   Sep > Sep 1

             Re: Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements - Strickland

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 14:26:57 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 08:37:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements - Strickland


 >From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements
 >Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:16:34 +0100

 >>From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements
 >>Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:19:33 +0100

 >>Georgina Bruni has recently 'had a go' at our website using Nick
 >>Pope as ammunition for her claim that we have "misinterpreted"
 >>the MOD file.

 >I have spent the last few days trying to undo the debunking that
 >Clarke has done in the Guardian article and on his website. I
 >was asked to talk to a journalist from The Guardian two weeks
 >ago but refused because I know their take on this subject. This
 >was the very newspaper that debunked the case when Ian Ridpath
 >fed them the 'lighthouse theory' in 1985.

 >It is a pity that the broadsheets don't take this case
 >seriously. Over the last month or so, five top journalists have
 >had the story, and two have written it up for publication, only
 >to have it pulled at the last minute. Unfortunately, the only
 >national paper that ran the story without debunking it was the
 >Star - a tabloid. I have to question why, but am of the opinion
 >that this sort of evidence makes the editors nervous.


Dear Georgina and Listers:

Thanks for clearing up a lot of questions I had after reading the
report.

I do have a question or two.

Did anyone _verify_ the reported "woman's scream"... talk to the
occupants at the farm house immediately after the incident? If
so, what, if anything was said? If not, why was this aspect of
the investigation tabled?

Thanks for your answers in advance.


Sincerely,

Sue Strickland
ex-abductee








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   Sep > Sep 1

                Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
Date: 31 Aug 2001 14:32:33 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 08:40:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -


 >From: David Wachenschwanz <ploot@atomiccafe.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure
 >Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:15:04 -0500

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Date: 21 Aug 2001 09:48:23 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>>Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 10:05:30 -0400
 >>>From: Sheree Cox <CoxSheree@netscape.net>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com (UFO UpDates - Toronto)
 >>>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>>>Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:43:56 -0400
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure

 >>>I agree with John Velez. A Hunger Strike can be very dangerous.
 >>>Surely there's better and safer ways to protest. Does George
 >>>Bush really care?

 >>Please tell me. I'm listening.

 >>Grant Cameron

 >>"Are you ready for the revolution?"
 >>Lara Johnstone, a California woman who began a Hunger Strike for
 >>Disclosure on July 28th.

 >Let me understand this. Someone is not eating because she
 >believes that by starving herself, she can persuade the
 >government to disclose all here-to-now "secret" information
 >concerning UFOs, et al? Is that correct?

 >If so its noble, but stupid.

 >If the government had such "undisclosed" information (assuming
 >there is any truth to the UFO phenomenon) do you or anyone here
 >_really_ believe they would bend on this issue? People have been
 >killed or "removed" for lesser deeds by the government. The
 >government doesn't care if some "nut" starves herself. In their
 >view the "problem" will take care of itself when she draws her
 >last breath.

Thanks David

There is an analogy described by often by Daniel Sheehan. It is
of 1,000 or more Jewish concentration camp prisioners being
guarded by 2, 3, or 4 German guards with guns. The prisioners
just sat and waited to be led to the slaughter.

Lara is one person who thinks that if we all combine our
strengths and talents we can overrun the evil holding us
captive. She recognizes the fact that some people might have to
die to free everyone else. Those holding the secret know that
much of their power is in the fact that very little is required
to hold the population captive. Most are sheep who are very
happy to be led to the slaughter. Their counteracting position
is "The government doesn't care. It has the power and there is
nothing we can do."

The government is not going to suddenly concede the game on this
issue. Never. They will only lose when enough opposing players
forse the ball down the field and score some touchdown.

The absolute reality of the future of this subject is that the
release will eventually come, but it will only come after a
struggle.

People like Lara Johnstone and Steven Greer may be wrong in 90%
of what they do. The 10% right, however is moving the ball.
Action opposing the secrecy is the only thing moves the ball.
Running through the theatre every five minutes yelling fire, and
speculation about what others are doing wrong does nothing to
advance the football.

Building a bridge to the future on this issue requires that
someone pick up a shovel or hammer and do something. For this
reason, the doers should be saluted.

Grant


"Are you ready for the revolution?"
Lara Johnstone, a California woman who began a Hunger Strike for
Disclosure on July 28th.
Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping!
http://www.shopping.altavista.com








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   Sep > Sep 1

                   Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 22:14:43 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 08:42:17 -0400
Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Hall


 >From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released
 >Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:16:37 +0100

 >>From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements
 >>Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:19:33 +0100

 >>Instead of choosing to 'tell the people', it's more a case of
 >>telling the people to 'buy the magazine'. Georgina's
 >>announcement has more to do with puffing up magazine sales than
 >>any real desire for you, the ufological public, to read the
 >>facts. Mrs Thatcher would be proud of her entrepreneurial
 >>acumen!

 >This is a silly statement. I have no shares in UFO Magazine.

 >>The 'comments' by James Easton and Jenny Randles are
 >>totally distinct from the Rendlesham File and Dave's
 >>commentary. Their views are not necessarily shared by either
 >>Dave or myself but both have been major players in the
 >>Rendlesham investigation and should be carefully listened to.

 >James Easton has done nothing more than attempt to debunk the
 >case. In twenty years Jenny Randles has never interviewed any
 >primary USAF witnesses. She talked to Burroughs briefly when she
 >met him at a UFO conference, and Charles Halt, briefly when she
 >met him at the Strange But True? party. Jenny's take on the
 >Rendlesham file is completely erroneous. She even states on the
 >website that Steve Roberts has never come forward. That's
 >nonsense, his story, told from my interviews with him a few
 >years back, is featured in a chapter in my book, titled _The
 >Mysterious Steve Roberts_.

 >List members will be interested to know that Ms. Randles wrote
 >letters to the MOD, where she tried to discredit other
 >researchers, claiming they lacked knowledge, experience and
 >credible public relations. In exchange for information she
 >offered to use her books and articles to make the MOD look good
 >in the eyes of ufologists, defusing the opinion held by
 >ufologists that the MOD was involved in a cover up. And that's
 >just for starters.

 >She wanted the information for herself and did not want you to
 >get it. If Stanton Freidman was upset with the letter she wrote
 >to the journalist, UFO groups will be outraged to see her
 >letters to the MOD.I suspect she never thought these
 >embarrassing letters would be released.

 >>Despite Georgina's witterings, we have offered her the space to
 >>put her side of the story on our site and she has accepted.
 >>Once, of course it's been sold to you, along with the tea
 >>towel, personalised handbag, and video, via UFO Magazine!

 >There is no way that I would allow my material to be used on a
 >debunking website. www.rendleshamincident.co.uk will be launched
 >in November and will feature all the evidence for the case.


Georgina,

Your posts have the ring of truth about them, but I am more than
a little confused about who is or is not credible. I know and
have interacted closely with Chuck Halt, and have debriefed him
very thoroughly. He denied to me some of your statements in your
book about having interviewed him. Want to talk privately?


Dick Hall









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   Sep > Sep 1

               Re: Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 19:24:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 08:45:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike - Velez


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 10:59:07 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: David Furlotte <furry@nobelmed.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike
 >>Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 23:11:18 -0400

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:06:19 EDT
 >>>Subject: Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>Gesundt begins hunger strike in order to compell others not to
 >>>do hunger strikes because it's bad for your health. Gesundt, in
 >>>a touching rendition of "taps" played through bottles of Gripple
 >>>Dripple Sin Gas, Gesundt told reporters that it's really OK to
 >>>go on a hunger strike, providing you get the permission of those
 >>>who don't think it's such good idea.

 >>Jim,

 >>This is in very poor taste. I don't believe that Lara is going
 >>to get much accomplished and I am concerned about her health
 >>through this hunger strike but this kind of humour is
 >>self-deprecating and an insult to her.

 >>Dave (Furry) Furlotte

 >Dear Furry, Errol, List,

 >You of all people, Dave, should recognize this piece for what it
 >is... a statement of angst in the form of satire, not aimed at
 >or even remotely construed as being aimed at, Lara (see my
 >previous posts on the subject for the thread) but against those
 >whom I consider should be targeted by satire... those who
 >detract from the very essence of what Lara is doing by invecting
 >their "concern" for the mature lady's health.

 >David... you surprise me. Read it again. You need only your
 >intellect and not some advanced degree to garner the garnet. You
 >got me so unimpressed, David, that I neglected to remove the
 >little '>>' for the Noble Bruce-Knapp... as I am want to do.


Hello Jim,

Furry is 'right on!' In fact, he's downright sweet and gentle
about the way he laid it on you. I can't believe you are unable
see what he's talking about.

What is truly sad, and sometimes even touches my heart about
you, is that you really haven't got a clue. It took me awhile,
but I have become convinced that your blindness is genuine and
not just an affectation.

Also, since I cannot e-mail you privately.....

 From myself (and my family) I'd like to thank you and Rosie for
the Mass Card for my mother. Although we're not Catholics,
prayer is prayer and after all science has proven that prayer
_works_.

Energy cannot be annihilated.

It can only change/transform into some other state. It is part
of the reason why I firmly believe that some part of our
'Beingness,' of our 'Self' survives physical death. Any
heartfelt prayer for my moms' Soul is deeply appreciated by
myself and my family.


Sincerely,

John Velez








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   Sep > Sep 1

             Re: Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike - Johnstone

From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 18:04:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 08:48:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike - Johnstone


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:06:19 EDT
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike

 >Gesundt begins hunger strike in order to compell others not to
 >do hunger strikes because it's bad for your health. Gesundt, in
 >a touching rendition of "taps" played through bottles of Gripple
 >Dripple Sin Gas, Gesundt told reporters that it's really OK to
 >go on a hunger strike, providing you get the permission of those
 >who don't think it's such good idea.

Dr. Morty! ;-)

Thank you, I have not laughed so much for a long
time! ;-)

 >Which is impossible unless one can demonstrate that it's OK.
 >Gesundt is gonna prove that it _is_ OK. All's you gotta do is
 >drink mass quantities of Gripple Dripple Sin Gas. It's got every
 >thing you need for nutrition. Fat, juicy critters for protein,
 >dripping in fruit juices (largely grape with some apple and
 >undisclosed other fruit juice for energy and vitaminies, it's
 >got alcohol so as to create within, a pleasant (but nutritious)
 >after glow.

ROFL.... ;-)

 >It also has minerals. Yes, this stuff will keep you going for
 >months without having to eat or drink anything else. And _most_
 >important, even those of you whose permission is required in
 >order for an adult to demonstrate his or her dedication to a
 >CAUSe, even you will not be able to dispute the efficacy of such
 >a hunger strike.

Indeed you got it! It is going to be a while! ;-)

 >So, watch for Gesundt's progress in the coming months. And if he
 >sounds a bit tipsy, well, not to mind. It's the Gripple. Gesundt
 >is now sitting comfortably in his hunger strike chair, waiting
 >for the reaction to come.

 >And in advance, he wishes to extend his greatful appreciation to
 >those of you who care so much (how much?) - SO MUCH, that you
 >will go to great lengths to tell each other just how much.

 >"Hey, Gesundt, stay away from them grahams. It's not on the
 >diet!"

 >There is one downside to hunger striking on Gripple. It really
 >makes you hungrier than weed.

I cannot stop laughing... ;-) Oh thank you so much!

 >Dr. Morty,
 >Physician

 >PS: Pass me the ham sandwitch. I hate looking at inebriated hungry
 >    people without a hero in my hand.

Ahhh alas, very few herous left in this world.
Just a few: Grant, Ernie, Randy, Alfred, Richard..

Lara


+=============================================+
|   Hungerstrike Requesting President Bush    |
|   honor his agreement to tell the American  |
| people the truth about UFO's, by supporting |
| the Disclosure Project witnesses to testify |
|  about their extensive knowledge of UFO's,  |
| advanced energy and propulsion systems, etc.|
+---------------------------------------------+
|       Bush UFO Disclosure Request:          |
|     http://www.bushufodisclosure.org/       |
|           Disclosure Project:               |
|     http://www.disclosureproject.org/       |
+=============================================+









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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 1

                Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 18:09:08 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 08:52:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 13:04:30 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >Hi Sean,

 >Thank you but I need to clarify one point: I don't believe that
 >Lara is doing this for "publicity". I stated in my original that
 >I couldn't in good conscience support her methods, (because of
 >the potential harm to her person) but... that I am completely
 >simpatico with the 'cause' - UFO disclosure.

John,

Hi. Thank you. I've appreciated your concerns in the past, and I
still do now. And even more I appreciate your simpatico with the
cause -- UFO disclosure!

 >You are jumping the gun in assuming that she would subject
 >herself to such an agonizing course of action for mere
 >"publicity". Have you ever fasted? Do you know the kind of
 >determination and strong Will that it takes to go for days -
 >much less weeks - without solid food intake? It's _not_easy_ my
 >brother.

 >She, or anyone else, would have to be one sick puppy to undergo
 >such a _grueling_ endurance test for "publicity". Lara sounds
 >like a sincere person. Unless/until any evidence surfaces to
 >make me think otherwise I am taking her at her word that she is
 >on this fast for the reason's she has already stated.

 >I don't think that you, or anybody else is justified in jumping
 >to the conclusion that her motives are as selfish and self
 >serving as going on this fast in an attempt at getting some
 >cheap "publicity". There is no evidence that such is the case -
 >_so_far_. Let's wait and see how the whole thing plays out over
 >time.


I will deal with the 'publicity' remarks in that email.....

I appreciate your thoughts above on the matter.


+=============================================+
|   Hungerstrike Requesting President Bush    |
|   honor his agreement to tell the American  |
| people the truth about UFO's, by supporting |
| the Disclosure Project witnesses to testify |
|  about their extensive knowledge of UFO's,  |
| advanced energy and propulsion systems, etc.|
+---------------------------------------------+
|       Bush UFO Disclosure Request:          |
|     http://www.bushufodisclosure.org/       |
|           Disclosure Project:               |
|     http://www.disclosureproject.org/       |
+=============================================+








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 1

                Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:56:33 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 08:56:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -


 >From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:22:02 +1000
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

 >Governments and alike, fear one individual more than one would
 >think. It was one person that died on a cross whom changed the
 >way we think about religion. It was also one person that
 >defeated Goliath and one person that proved the earth was round
 >and not flat. There are many more examples I can give but I
 >think every one here gets my point. So one person can make a
 >difference.

Chris!

Hi. Thanks for the support! Thought I'd add a few more _one's_
who made a difference!

- My favorite of course being Mr. Braveheart!
- And second but not by much: 'one' Joan of Arc? ;-)
- There is the one Winnie Mandela (whatever your views may be on
   the lady, she is only one person who was a very ugly thorn in
   the side of apartheid)? And of course many others... ;-)
- Ghandi
- Cezar Chavez
- Martin Luther King
- Nelson Mandela
- Steve Biko and on and on... ;-)

 >It is said, that, the greatest number of all is _one_.

 >I have no doubt that there are people monitoring the situation
 >of the hunger strike on behalf on the government in question and
 >that they would be concerned with its out come. I wish the lady
 >undertaking this brave if not extreme measure all the best.

Much appreciated! Many thanks...

 >But I agree with many others here, when it comes to her well
 >being. Her life is worth more than the information she seeks;
 >also there may be a greater reason as to why they censor such
 >information.

Really? My life is worth more than the lives of millions of
people currently living lives of misery, which this information
probably could severely (sp?) alter!

Why is _my_ life worth more than millions? ;-)

Because I am _white_, or a _woman_ or _educated_ or what? ;-)

 >Perhaps it is not so much the governments that hide much of this
 >from us, but in many cases it is religious institutions that
 >don't want this information coming forth. They, after all, stand
 >to lose the most from such things as Aliens becoming fact
 >instead of fiction.

Agreed! Which is why I am not just writing to goverments, but
religious institutions too -- ie my letter to Bishop Tutu.

http://www.bushufodisclosure.org/menuletters.html

More letters to other religious and 'spiritual' leaders, and
others to come soon! ;-)

 >I was at this point going to rave on at how one should take into
 >account the bigger picture when considering such explosive
 >subjects and does the end justify the means? But maybe it is
 >time the world knew the truth; we are a strong people and will
 >adapt to change.

Agreed! At least some of us are strong enough, those who
seriously want the truth... It seems that others are in doubt as
to whether they _really_ want the disclosure! Especially if some
'crazy' woman shows them up for being armchair truth-seekers ;-)
But they sure like talking about it! ;-)

 >I do however don't want any harm to come to this brave women,
 >but sometimes governments and alike will not take notice until
 >something of an extreme nature happens.

Well, thank you! I would suggest anyone who is seriously
_worried_ about the _harm_ that may come to me -- to _focus_ on
the problem!!

ie -- our lying, cheating, stealing, pernicious, and
I could go on and on, and probably would lose my
'ladylike' language -- GOVERNMENTS! who do
very serious harm by their ineptitude, secrets
and lies!

Enough is enough! I am sorry, but I have just had enough of this
crap! ;-)

 >So Good Health to you Lara.

I'd suggest good health to President Bush, cause I'm not even
half-way yet! ;-)

 >Still I cannot help but wonder what the people of Earth will
 >make of the truth if it is made available to them. Sometimes the
 >truth is too much to handle.

Speaking personally? Or how do you know what is too much to
handle for anyone else? Seems like many millions of allegedly
'uneducated' third worlders know that there are beings visiting
from out of space -- could it be those that have been so
educated tha they have become zombies mascarading as educated
human beings, who may have the problem of 'handling' the
information? ;-)

 >Note to the males of the list; trust a women like Lara to be the
 >one getting it _done_, while us males sit around the campfire
 >sipping long necks and just talking about getting it done.

Indeed! I couldn't have said it better! I always won at Cowboys
and Indians against the boys when I was 5, seems like it just
doesn't end!

And I thought those good ol' Ozzie boys from down under would at
least put down the Fosters and Stand By the Sheila! ;-) Where is
Crocodile Dundee when I need him?

Good'ay

Lara


+=============================================+
|   Hungerstrike Requesting President Bush    |
|   honor his agreement to tell the American  |
| people the truth about UFO's, by supporting |
| the Disclosure Project witnesses to testify |
|  about their extensive knowledge of UFO's,  |
| advanced energy and propulsion systems, etc.|
+---------------------------------------------+
|       Bush UFO Disclosure Request:          |
|     http://www.bushufodisclosure.org/       |
|           Disclosure Project:               |
|     http://www.disclosureproject.org/       |
+=============================================+








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 1

              Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:14:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 09:00:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Clark


 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze
 >Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:50:34 -0400


 >>Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:34:15 -0400
 >>Subject: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze
 >>To: bravehrt@concentric.net, sqquishy@altavista.com
 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>

 >>In Washington at the same time as Lara, according to a press
 >>release from the White House today will be a famous UFO
 >>personality Eduard Shevardnadze. He will be meeting with
 >>President Bush Oct.5. Will they discuss UFOs? Only time will
 >>tell.

 >>Shevardnadze gained his UFO reputation after having two
 >>conversations with former President Ronald Reagan.

 >This is just too much.

 >Shevardnadze is not a UFO personality. He's the President of the
 >former Soviet republic of Georgia, a country that (like many
 >former Soviet lands) is not in good shape. Before this he was
 >foreign minister under Gorbachev, in the last years of the
 >Soviet Union, during which he got a reputation, doubtless
 >deserved, as a liberal, and a good guy.

 >In his two conversations with Reagan, Reagan (at least as
 >reported in the part of the message I snipped) did almost all
 >the talking. Reagan, as I'm sure we all know, was fond of asking
 >whether the US and the USSR would drop their differences if
 >aliens appeared. Twice he asked that entirely rhetorical
 >question to Shevardnadze, whose only reported answer was
 >something to the effect of "Yeah, sure."

 >Now, suddenly, this makes Shevardnadze a "UFO personality," even
 >though no other time, as far as I know, was he associated in any
 >way with UFOs or ufology. And it makes his appearance in
 >Washington at the same time as Lara Johnstone's "a strange
 >coincidence."

 >Credulous people, it seems, are ready to believe just about
 >anything.


Greg and listfolk,

Well said. I'll admit that my eyes bugged out even more than
usual at the strange characterization of Shevardnadze as a "UFO
personality". It also bears mentioning that according to
Reagan's best biographer, veteran political journalist and
longtime Reagan observer Lou Cannon, the former President's
occasional woolly statements about earth-uniting hostile aliens
were almost certainly took their inspiration from
science-fiction movies he'd seen in his youth. (If memory
serves, Cannon even cited several likely candidates.) Movies
were a huge influence on Reagan, and on occasion (as 60 Minutes
once documented in a memorable segment) he had trouble
distinguishing between a movie plot and an event that actually
happened.

Without much better evidence than exists now - actually, none at
all exists now - it is foolish, and frankly ignorant, to read
Reagan's remarks as hinting at knowledge of non-cinematic ET
visitation.


Jerry Clark












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   Sep > Sep 1

                         *U* Database Website Moved

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:08:29 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 09:04:41 -0400
Subject: *U* Database Website Moved


Hello Errol, and welcome back!

One note to the readers if I may.

Due to terrible service / downtime at my collapsing ISP
(jps.net ==> Onemain.com ==> Earthlink) I lost patience and
registered my own Domain Name.

With characteristic modesty, *U* is now online at:

http://www.larryhatch.net

Note the .net extension, _not_ .com The .com address was taken
by another Larry Hatch, some botanist who fancies English Ivy
of all things!  (I hate the stuff.)

If I could prevail on all your readers:

Please _please_ check any web-page links you may have to my
website, formerly at:

http://www.jps.net/larryhat  (and variations)

Please change any and all of them to:

http://www.larryhatch.net

the new and permanent address.

The entire website is now moved to my new host, in Silicon
Valley where connections should be faster and more reliable.

If anyone has my pages as "favorites" or bookmarks, please
change those links too. Simply visit visit the new pages at:

http://www.larryhat.net

and re-enter bookmarks or favorites. Then delete the old jps.net
ones.

All old JPSs/Onemain servers are will be taken offline in the
next 3 weeks or so, and with them ALL personal web-pages
starting with jps.net/xxxxxx. All old links to my website, will
go dead unless the URLs are changed.

My email address will remain the same. This is aliased to some
server at my Earthlink dial-up service.

Now I must do battle with a dozen Search Engines.. Alas.


Wish me luck.

- Larry Hatch









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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 1

                     Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 09:14:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 09:14:46 -0400
Subject: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind




From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

Source: The Village Voice

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0135/segall2.php

Week of August 29 - September 4, 2001


Close Encounter of the Raelian Kind
by Rebecca Segall


Raelianism was founded 30 years ago in France by auto-racing
reporter Claude Vorilhon. Now known as "Rael", he claims that in
1973 he was approached by a four-foot-tall alien who identified
himself as one of the "Elohim" - humanoid, all-powerful
extraterrestrials who had created life on Earth through cloning.
Vorilhon was the chosen son. His single mother had been
artificially inseminated by one of their number, and he was to
prepare earthlings for the Elohim's return.

The alien told Vorilhon that DNA is our essence, and that it can
be preserved for eternity. He also was told that all earthly
religions are misinterpretations of the true extraterrestrial
gospel, and that human beings should liberate themselves from
the scientifically limited and sexually and artistically
repressive tendencies of mainstream religion.

The alien explained that an account of the Elohim's work can be
found in the Bible, which, he said, is the oldest atheist book
in the world. The alien entrusted Vorilhon with the mission of
propagating this revelation and building an embassy in
Jerusalem, where the Elohim will officially return very soon,
along with Jesus, Moses, Buddha, and Muhammad, who are being
kept alive on a distant planet thanks to cloning.

And then the white, green-tinged creature renamed Vorilhon:
Henceforth he would be known as Rael.

Since that time, Rael has attracted 55,000 followers in 84
countries. Lapsed Catholics respond readily to his New Age
message, couched in familiar New Testament themes. Raelianism
also has thousands of followers in Japan and South Korea and a
handful of Jews in Israel.

The Raelians' quirky Web site (www.rael.org) - which greets
visitors with a flash film depicting a sombrero-shaped flying
saucer speeding around the Earth - is accessible in 17 languages,
including Mandarin, Farsi, Swedish, and Slovenian.

-30-







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                Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 08:31:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 10:09:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -


 >From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure
 >Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:22:02 +1000

 >>From: David Wachenschwanz <ploot@atomiccafe.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure
 >>Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:15:04 -0500

<snip>

 >But I agree with many others here, when it comes to her well
 >being. Her life is worth more than the information she seeks;

I have to take issue with this, Mr. Kelly. The information she
seeks is one _hell_ of a lot more important than _anyone's_
life. This includes you and me, my son, and a darling daughter
that you may, or may not, be bouncing on your knee. It's bigger
than any age, institution, or government, more important than
any nation, congregation, or creed, and of greater value than
the wealth of all nations, the savings of any population, or any
individual's personal satisfaction and financial security.

That information impacts on all of the preceding, indicating
_extreme_ importance. This is reflected in Ms. Johnstone's
willingness to risk that life... contributing her meager energy
behind the effort to precipitate that disclosure, to unmask
information we should all have, and to provide information
presently, and very suspiciously, denied to us.

 >also there may be a greater reason as to why they censor such
 >information.

I reject this out of hand. That alleged prerogative of
government to withhold information "for our own good" has been
so righteously, rigorously, and religiously _abused_ that any
attempt, now, to maintain that suspect secrecy is too suspicious
to be allowed to continue. Moreover, I'm amazed that ANYONE
might still believe that the lack of governmental
forthcomingness is necessary, justified, or efficacious, when
what it is, REALLY, is just profoundly disrespectful.

<snip>

 >Note to the males of the list; trust a women like Lara to be the
 >one getting it _done_, while us males sit around the campfire
 >sipping long necks and just talking about getting it done.

On this point you'll get no argument from me. I can agree that
we "good old boys" might be a little piqued by her direct
perspicuousness! Let's raise some fresh longnecks in a toast to
her, assume her rational conscientiousness, and give her the
respect that she deserves. Anything else... disserves.

<snipped>

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

  ~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.







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                 Re: *U* Database Website Moved - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: 1 Sep 2001 14:33:51 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 10:17:34 -0400
Subject: Re: *U* Database Website Moved - McGonagle


 >Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:08:29 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: *U* Database Website Moved

<snip>

 >The entire website is now moved to my new host, in Silicon
 >Valley where connections should be faster and more reliable.


If the power stays on for long enough!

Cheers, Larry.....

Joe ;-)


___________________________________________









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                     Fast Correction - I'm In URL Hell!

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 07:25:01 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 10:59:24 -0400
Subject: Fast Correction - I'm In URL Hell!


Once again, guys (I'm up way past bedtime )

*U* is now online at:

http://www.larryhatch.net

  .. and _not_

" www.jps.net/larryhat " ..


"Larryhat" went out the window with jps.net.


Sorry

- Larryhatch ( dot net, not com.) [burp!]









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                  Report On 'Seep' Features At Mars Society

From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 08:59:12 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 12:20:54 -0400
Subject: Report On 'Seep' Features At Mars Society


The message below was posted on the Cydonia email List by Efrain
Palermo who, with Jill England, made a presentation at the Mars
Society convention on August 23 in California.

The subject; the 'Seep' features found primarily in tropical
latitudes on Mars.

Geologist Harry Moore (a member of the Society for Planetary
SETI Research) contributed to the paper. I edited the paper and
also made a few contributions to its content.

Palermo and England's presentation argues strongly for the
possibility that these features are stains produced by a flowing
liquid, possibly water.

Since the presentation was made I've reviewed several other
papers on the subject written by planetary scientists, including
Michael Malin. None of them even considered the possibility that
these dark streaks could be anything other than dry dust slides.

It appears to me from reading those papers that they are
struggling rather unsuccessfully to force fit the evidence into
a 'dry Mars' model.

In the first paper, Malin described two alternative "dry" models
and rejected one of them because details of the features made it
appear unlikely. But in the subsequent paper, he rejected his
previously preferred model because additional research showed it
was untenable. He then switched his preference to the previously
rejected model without addressing most of his own objections to
it that caused him to reject it in the first paper.

This is a good indication of a lost scientific cause, stubbornly
clung to because of a 'scientific consensus' prematurely set in
concrete.

The two papers by Malin et. al. are at:

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/LPSC99/pdf/1809.pdf

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2000/pdf/1911.pdf


I'm posting Palermo's message with his permission.

=====================================================

Hello,

Myself, along with Jill England, presented our seeps paper at
the 4th Annual Mars Society Convention. We walked them through
our research and analysis and theories step by step using Jill's
laptop PowerPoint presentation with exceptionally clear and
crisp graphics.

The result?....

Overwhelming enthusiasm! We had a question and answer period
that lasted well over our allotted time period the interest was
so high. When I ended, I said I had copies of my paper if anyone
was interested (I had 15 nicely bound, clear plastic covered
copies), I got mobbed right after the talk and handed out all
of the papers like candy at Holloween.

We had a group of people following us for over an hour
afterward wanting to talk about it and offer their comments.

On our way back to the airport, on the second leg of our trip, a
stranger came up to us and said he was at our presentation and
wanted to shake our hands and told us how much he enjoyed it.

Even Hoagland got mentioned, Jill and I gave him credit where
credit was due. Someone in the audience had a question about his
Tides theory (we ran out of question and answer time and Jill
offered to go over it, after the talk, wih anyone in the
audience using Mike Bara's notes).

All and all a successful event. We had sat in on 3 other
presentations and no other's got the response that ours did.

Our paper will be included in their book which will include all
of the presentations given at this Conference.

I want to thank Lan Fleming for his editorial work on the paper.

If interested you can view a .pdf version at:

http://www.users.qwest.net/~vtwild/webpage/Mars%20Society%20Seeps%20Paper.pdf


Efrain Palermo







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               Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 08:03:05 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 18:10:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Hatch


 >From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >Source: The Village Voice

 >http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0135/segall2.php

 >Week of August 29 - September 4, 2001

 >Close Encounter of the Raelian Kind
 >by Rebecca Segall

 >Raelianism was founded 30 years ago in France by auto-racing
 >reporter Claude Vorilhon. Now known as "Rael", he claims that in
 >1973 he was approached by a four-foot-tall alien who identified
 >himself as one of the "Elohim" - humanoid, all-powerful
 >extraterrestrials who had created life on Earth through cloning.
 >Vorilhon was the chosen son. His single mother had been
 >artificially inseminated by one of their number, and he was to
 >prepare earthlings for the Elohim's return.

<snip>

Didn't some large western religion (the name escapes me,
something about holy water and budget forgiveness)... start out
with precisely the same silly rap?

As I recall, the biblical Hebrews called the Almighty "Elohim".
Any student of ancient religions should know about that, maybe
even a former race-car driver who (also) attended Catholic
school.

Sons of God were plentiful in ancient times. Every Egyptian
Pharoah directly descended from the God(s) without silly regard
to biology or genetics.

Frankly, this sounds like a classic French con-artist;
commercially tapping the un-met religious needs of thousands if
not millions; themselves forever awaiting Divine Rapture,
self-washing dishes and dry stockings that don't grow holes on
the bottom like mine do.



Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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               Re: New Developments In Linda Abduction - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 11:22:46 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 18:13:00 -0400
Subject: Re: New Developments In Linda Abduction - Young


 >From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: New Developments In Linda Abduction
 >Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:11:42 -0600

 >>Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:28:38 -0700 (PDT)
 >>From: George Hansen <gphansen2001@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: New Developments In Linda Cortile Abduction
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >As an "experiencer" and "abductee" I can vouch for all of the
 >above statements you have made.

So, you are somebody who claims special knowledge that others
don't have, and expect everyone to take your claim at face
value, just because you say it.

 >Whether I believe you are sincere or not is another question.
 >Your use of Philip Klass' opinions and/or material are evidence
 >of your lack of sincerity.

Oh, views different from yours are not just in error, they are
false. O course they must be lies. But, we must keep in mind
that you are entirely sincere. After all, you have just told us
so.

<snip>

 >Sincerely, Sue Strickland, ex-abductee

By this, we can assume that you are not currently under the
control of the Greys, or sending this from a laptop inside one
of their ships?

I just saw Men in Black again last night, along with a group of
adolescents. A delightful flick, but without the sincerety that
the screenwiters could have had by the addition of an Archbishop
or two. There were only creepy bugs.


Sincerely,

Bob Young

             ----------------
"Keep your eyes a little wide and blank" - Dr Miles Bennell's
instructions on how to look like a pod person, Invasion of the
Body Snatchers (1956)








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                   Re: *U* Database Website Moved - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 08:26:45 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 18:16:29 -0400
Subject: Re: *U* Database Website Moved - Hatch


 >Date: 1 Sep 2001 14:33:51 +0100
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: *U* Database Website Moved

 >>Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:08:29 -0700
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: *U* Database Website Moved

 ><snip>

 >>The entire website is now moved to my new host, in Silicon
 >>Valley where connections should be faster and more reliable.

 >If the power stays on for long enough!

 >Cheers, Larry.....

 >Joe ;-)


Cheers Joe! (..and good luck to you.)


It is my fervent hope that the people at JPS.NET (if their
customer service is any indication) are so thoroughly inept,
that they are _unable_ to shut down my old website... buying me
time to redirect visitors to the _new_ web pages.

This is delayed commercialism. I am discouraging sales right
now, in the hope that I can create an income stream, however
small, for when I do retire.

After all that work, jps.net (and its remains) informs me that
my pages will summarily shot at sunrise, on 2 SEPT 2001, just 3
weeks from now.

Having seen their performance so far, I wonder if they can find
the on/off switch or the servers it pertains to.

I suffered thru an hour of elevator music, recently, to reach a
"service person" who needed all my persuasion that there was
indeed a problem in the first place. Having pressed that fact
across, this person finally commiserated, much like a nun at the
bedside of a dying man.

Another service person responded (via email), one or two weeks
late, that they were indeed having problems allowing me to FTP
up my web pages to my pre-paid server space. Every third word
in that message was mis-spelled.

It is my fervent hope that jps.net / OneMain / or whatever, is
so inept that they will fail to shut down my website until Yahoo
and other search engines come along with updated URLs.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                  Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 16:31:17 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 18:20:04 -0400
Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Bruni


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released
 >Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 22:14:43 +0000

 >Georgina,

 >Your posts have the ring of truth about them, but I am more than
 >a little confused about who is or is not credible. I know and
 >have interacted closely with Chuck Halt, and have debriefed him
 >very thoroughly. He denied to me some of your statements in your
 >book about having interviewed him. Want to talk privately?

 >Dick Hall


Dick

It's interesting that Charles Halt should tell you that. When he
received the book, he actually wrote congratulating me on my
thorough research. I interviewed him several times for the book,
and have had other conversations with him since publication, and
he has never once complained. He asked me not to actually quote
him on most of his responses, which I complied to. And he shared
certain information which he asked me not to publish, and I also
complied to this request.

I hope this answers some questions, which I am forced to present
here on UpDates because you brought it up publicly. I will not
discuss publicly (for his sake) the reason why I think he denied
I had interviewed him, but would be willing to talk to you
privately, as you suggest.


Best wishes

Georgina Bruni









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             Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Evans

From: Roger Evans <shooter@afterimagephoto.tv>
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 10:56:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 18:24:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Evans


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 08:31:47 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

 >>From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure
 >>Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:22:02 +1000

Previously, Chris Kelly wrote:

 >>But I agree with many others here, when it comes to her well
 >>being. Her life is worth more than the information she seeks;

Lehmberg replied:

 >I have to take issue with this, Mr. Kelly. The information she
 >seeks is one _hell_ of a lot more important than _anyone's_
 >life. This includes you and me, my son, and a darling daughter
 >that you may, or may not, be bouncing on your knee. It's bigger
 >than any age, institution, or government, more important than
 >any nation, congregation, or creed, and of greater value than
 >the wealth of all nations, the savings of any population, or any
 >individual's personal satisfaction and financial security.

Mr. Lehmberg,

Let's say that the government gave up and said, "Okay. You win.
Here are all the files on ET life and ET craft".

And it turned out that ET life and ET craft simply didn't exist,
after all....

Would you feel the sacrifice of your family was _still_ worth
it, Mr. Lehmberg? And how would you know if the government was
telling the truth, anyway? _That_ is why Ms. Johnstone's act is
senseless. Unless the pro-UFO crowd gets the answer they want to
hear  - be it the truth or not - she will die from starvation.
Stupid.

Roger








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                Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Pat McCartney <ElPatricio@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 12:04:40 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 18:38:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -


 >Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:56:33 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
 >Subject: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >>Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:22:02 +1000
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

 >>Governments and alike, fear one individual more than one would
 >>think. It was one person that died on a cross whom changed the
 >>way we think about religion. It was also one person that
 >>defeated Goliath and one person that proved the earth was round
 >>and not flat. There are many more examples I can give but I
 >>think every one here gets my point. So one person can make a
 >>difference.

<snip>

 >>Perhaps it is not so much the governments that hide much of this
 >>from us, but in many cases it is religious institutions that
 >>don't want this information coming forth. They, after all, stand
 >>to lose the most from such things as Aliens becoming fact
 >>instead of fiction.

 >Agreed! Which is why I am not just writing to goverments, but
 >religious institutions too -- ie my letter to Bishop Tutu.
 >http://www.bushufodisclosure.org/menuletters.html
 >More letters to other religious and 'spiritual' leaders, and
 >others to come soon! ;-)

Thanks to both Christopher and Lara for making the point that
committed individuals can often affect history in the face of
seemingly overpowering forces.

What struck me when I read a brief resume of Lara's that, I
believe, Cameron posted, was that she had previously worked for
the inestimable Peggy Noonan. To those of us who are politically
literate, that name has a certain heft, since she was at one
time the speechwriter for both President Ronald Reagan and
President George Bush the First.

I am curious to know, Lara, whether you are still on good terms
with Ms. Noonan (whose political views I would contest, but not
her clout), and have you discussed this subject with her? The
reason I ask is that a hunger strike by a nameless individual
whose character is unknown is one thing, but an act of principle
committed by someone within the family, so to speak, can carry
far greater weight.

In any case, as someone who had previously written letters to
each member of the House and Senate select committees on
intelligence in support of congressional hearings on UFO's (and
received just two or three responses, all referring to the Air
Force's revisionist Mogul balloon story for Roswell), I believe
in taking action, regardless of the chances of success.

Best wishes in your quest.









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                 Re: Newark Airport Radar Information - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 16:19:14 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 18:40:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Newark Airport Radar Information - Hall


 >Date: 31 Aug 2001 19:08:50 -0000
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: Colm Kelleher - NIDS <NIDS@lb.bcentral.com>
 >Subject: Newark Airport Radar Information

 >On July 25, 2001, NIDS sent a FOIA request to the FAA requesting
 >radar tapes (Tracon) for the July 14-15, 2001 timeframe around
 >the Carteret UFO incident. NIDS also requested the tower voice
 >tapes for the same time period from Newark International
 >Airport.

 >Prior to receiving the FOIA data, NIDS received a preliminary
 >analytical report that details unidentified flying objects
 >without transponders detected on air traffic control radar in
 >the airspace around Newark International Airport on the night of
 >July 14-15, 2001. The report is summarized in table form below.

 >The following points are to be noted:

 >All times in the report are Zulu time (GMT). Subtract 4 hours to
 >get Carteret time for each data point.

 >Speed of the different objects is measured in knots (kts).

It is delightful to see some good, sensible scientific case
investigation posted here in place of the all-too-common fare of
ego displays and silliness.


Dick Hall









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                       The Rendlesham Lighthouse Redux

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 17:26:29 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 18:42:46 -0400
Subject: The Rendlesham Lighthouse Redux


List members might be interested to know that Nick Pope and I
were guests on the Carlton TV Weekend Late Live Show last night.
The sceptic guests on stage were Wendy Grossman, editor of The
Skeptic, and Quentin Cooper, presenter of BBC Radio 4 Science
Radio, The Material World.

Wendy brought up the tired lighthouse theory, claiming that it
was established 17 years ago that the UFO in Rendlesham Forest
was the local lighthouse. I have long awaited a public debate
with Wendy on this very subject, and although there wasn't much
time as the programme discussed other cases, I was pleased to
shoot down her theory by asking if she really believed that the
lighthouse could get up and fly into the forest, leaving marks
in the ground. The audience were pleasantly amused. I also
reminded her that this theory is long dead because of all the
new evidence. Nick Pope reminded her about the radiation
readings taken at the site and the MOD file that reveals that
there was concern over this matter. And that was the end of
that! What else could she say?

It's all very well for sceptics to have their quaint beliefs,
but they need to be able to prove what they are claiming. It
would also help if they kept up to date with the case.


Best wishes

Georgina Bruni

"You Can't Tell The People".The Definitive Account of the
Rendlesham Forest UFO Mystery by Georgina Bruni. Published
by Sidgwick & Jackson










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   Sep > Sep 1

                  Re: Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 14:17:57 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 18:45:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike -


 >Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 18:04:27 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
 >Subject: Re: Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike


 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:06:19 EDT
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Gesundt Joins Lara in Hunger Strike

 >>Gesundt begins hunger strike in order to compell others not to
 >>do hunger strikes because it's bad for your health. Gesundt, in
 >>a touching rendition of "taps" played through bottles of Gripple
 >>Dripple Sin Gas, Gesundt told reporters that it's really OK to
 >>go on a hunger strike, providing you get the permission of those
 >>who don't think it's such good idea.

 >Dr. Morty! ;-)

 >Thank you, I have not laughed so much for a long
 >time! ;-)

 >>Which is impossible unless one can demonstrate that it's OK.
 >>Gesundt is gonna prove that it _is_ OK. All's you gotta do is
 >>drink mass quantities of Gripple Dripple Sin Gas. It's got every
 >>thing you need for nutrition. Fat, juicy critters for protein,
 >>dripping in fruit juices (largely grape with some apple and
 >>undisclosed other fruit juice for energy and vitaminies, it's
 >>got alcohol so as to create within, a pleasant (but nutritious)
 >>after glow.

 >ROFL.... ;-)

 >>It also has minerals. Yes, this stuff will keep you going for
 >>months without having to eat or drink anything else. And _most_
 >>important, even those of you whose permission is required in
 >>order for an adult to demonstrate his or her dedication to a
 >>CAUSe, even you will not be able to dispute the efficacy of such
 >>a hunger strike.

 >Indeed you got it! It is going to be a while! ;-)

 >>So, watch for Gesundt's progress in the coming months. And if he
 >>sounds a bit tipsy, well, not to mind. It's the Gripple. Gesundt
 >>is now sitting comfortably in his hunger strike chair, waiting
 >>for the reaction to come.

 >>And in advance, he wishes to extend his greatful appreciation to
 >>those of you who care so much (how much?) - SO MUCH, that you
 >>will go to great lengths to tell each other just how much.

 >>"Hey, Gesundt, stay away from them grahams. It's not on the
 >>diet!"

 >>There is one downside to hunger striking on Gripple. It really
 >>makes you hungrier than weed.

 >I cannot stop laughing... ;-) Oh thank you so much!

 >>Dr. Morty,
 >>Physician

 >>PS: Pass me the ham sandwitch. I hate looking at inebriated hungry
 >> people without a hero in my hand.

 >Ahhh alas, very few herous left in this world.
 >Just a few: Grant, Ernie, Randy, Alfred, Richard..

 >Lara

I am indeed grateful that it made yo do what was intended,
laugh. However you left out some people when you listed several
heros.

Mo, Larry and Curly....

As one who has memories I'd rather not have, all I can do is
write. Which I am doing. We all do what we can. And stick
together in the process. And when the going gets really rough,
the best we can do is shtick together. beCAUSe laughter makes it
all a little better.

Give 'em hell, Lady.


Jim, Rosie, StupidTwo and all them voices in my head









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   Sep > Sep 1

                   In Defense Of The All-Too-Scarce Smile

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 17:08:54 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 18:48:39 -0400
Subject: In Defense Of The All-Too-Scarce Smile


With Errol's permission...

My association with UpDates as a contributor has taken several
detours since I began posting about four years ago. Can't really
be that long, can it? I suppose it can. And to some, it's like a
lifetime, I presume. Since 1997, my wife and I have ridden a
rollercoaster of emotions, emotions born of all manner of
nightmare. Some related to health and some, just lousy luck. But
the tide has turned, and has come for me to remove some myths as
well as relate some truths.

When I was an infant, I had memories which I was able to easily
interpret as dream, nightmare or real event which occurred
within a dreamlike state. At three years. Can't help it, if I'm
lucky. Now I need you folks to stay with me here.

Having had such a terror filled childhood, during which no one
was able to attend my wounds, no matter how wonderful my family
was to me. No matter how supportive and nurturing, they could
not help me. I watched them helplessly as they tried desperately
to understand what it was I was going through. And they watched
me helplessly as I tried desperately to appreciate what they
were doing for me.

Neither of us was able to help the other. The salvation of my
life was that we both stood strong, knowing that whatever was
happening was something which just had to be gotten through.
Together. Saved my life.

(It's coming soon, stay with me)

This stress-filled state was going to stay with me all my life.
It made me into a child, a young man and young adult, who
worried about everything. Everything. Scared silly by the least
of things. This fear, this stress, restricts you from achieving
your level. From reaching the top. The fear is always there.
With me, it has always been a feeling of impending doom. Always.
In fact, the fear with which someone such as I lives, manifests
in a physical way. The ganglia in the solar plexus, in the
stomach, even in the hands (the palms and the area on the
underside of the hands near the thumbs) are felt most strongly,
during these periods of fear.

So what does one do? When reaching the age of about 17 years,
you go see a shrink. You talk about everything. You tell about
the dreams. You say the truth. But hold back your own
interpretation of them. You allow the doctor to make his own
mind up as to the insanity lurking.

The answer comes back. Sane as the Rock of Gibraltar. But with
serious and sometimes debilitating phobia and panic attacks.
Thanks. The IQ much higher than average. Fear (phobia) which are
somewhat unusual in the combination in which this man's phobias
appear. More. But not terribly pertinent to this tome. Except
that the number of shrinks during this lifetime increased. One,
two, three, four. At levels during which the stress, the phobias
and the doubts over one's sanity, prevail. The answer is nearly
always the same. The only difference is the shrinks'
interpretation of some of the tests given. As age increased, the
ability to prevail over the stress increases. Confidence due to
success in one's career, and the stresses ADDED to the ones'
already there, make it seems intolerable. One turns to tobacco.
To pain killers. Thankfully, there is nothing stronger than such
as those mentioned. But taking them creates additional stress.
Finding a man, a physician, who can deal with one's own
interpretation of the events presumed to be alien ordered, is a
tough thing to do.

Finally, I achieve a good relationship with the man voted by his
own peers to be the best internist and diagnostician in this
part of the country. And I am moving to within five minutes of
his office. A man who has listened to my story for more than
thirty years. Got me through the tough times, saved my life and
Rosie's. Put me on antidepressants and did everything he could
to help.

I find out that this man has a family history of the paranormal.
Which is why he went into the profession. To debunk the bunk his
own family told about. So far, after practicing for forty years,
he cannot do so. Hard as he's tried.

So here we have a person (me) who has suffered fear and stress
all his life. Living with it in order to get through life is
tough enough. But living with it in order to achieve, is much
more difficult. To achieve the top of one's profession and climb
the ladder. That's a bitch and a half. But, forgive my
braggadocio, this is what I did. Until that tragic day when
Rosie was diagnosed with MS.

Now for the denouement. The point, as I love to say. Some on
this list learn to appreciate Brobdignag. Humor. Satire and the
occasional funny story. Some take it way the hell too seriously.
Seriously. The point of the satire is to laugh at a point, or
the point selected by the pointer. When it gets too heavy. Too
much of a burden to bear. Not for the pointer but for those
pointed, eh? (God I love that Torontianism)

So, the opposite of laughter is tears. The opposite of fear is
... uh... gees, what's the opposite of fear? Happiness. Joy.
Peace.

Now for the piece of resistance. I'd rather make it my "Peace"
of resistance.

I like to laugh. At me. At you. At things some of us perceive to
be our truth. Because during my lifetime of fear and stress,
I've learned that to laugh is to sloff off the stress. The fear.
And bring the joy. Bring a smile. I know that some of you are so
focused as to feel that the satire is ill-directed. It isn't.
Not in my mind. In my mind, it is properly directed. Therefore
it is not meant to insult. Well, not ALL the time. It is meant
to seriously show how silly something is by making it sound even
sillier.

I admire the work and word of Lehmberg. Sorry, Al. Gotta say it.
Had I your way with words and poetry, I'd be appreciated by
those who...! Alas, I do not. I rather, have my own way. And God
willing, I shall use my way to my grave. Which hopefully will
not be arrived at any time soon. Since Rosie and I have a new
home to move into up north. In the woods. With only critters for
neighbors. The sky for a blanket. And fresh mountain pine air.
Small mountains, because it's still pretty much in the lower
part of the state.

With only love for you who suffer as I have. And that means
_all_ of you. I remain, Jim Mortellaro... joker... satirist...
but when it comes to my memories, serious researcher.

So when you see a Gesundt on the page. Leave it alone, press
delete or do what most intellectuals who drink, do; enjoy it.
Smile. Cripes, at least smile. And know that behind the pen is a
man who loves life and has learned the hard way, to laugh and
point... nyuk.

Oh, and StupidTwo says hello. Actually, she says, "Woof!"









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   Sep > Sep 1

               Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 21:36:26 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 18:51:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Hall


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze
 >Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:14:09 -0500

 >>From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze
 >>Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:50:34 -0400

 >>>Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:34:15 -0400
 >>>Subject: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze
 >>>To: bravehrt@concentric.net, sqquishy@altavista.com
 >>>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>

 >>>In Washington at the same time as Lara, according to a press
 >>>release from the White House today will be a famous UFO
 >>>personality Eduard Shevardnadze. He will be meeting with
 >>>President Bush Oct.5. Will they discuss UFOs? Only time will
 >>>tell.

 >>>Shevardnadze gained his UFO reputation after having two
 >>>conversations with former President Ronald Reagan.

 >>This is just too much.

 >>Shevardnadze is not a UFO personality. He's the President of the
 >>former Soviet republic of Georgia, a country that (like many
 >>former Soviet lands) is not in good shape. Before this he was
 >>foreign minister under Gorbachev, in the last years of the
 >>Soviet Union, during which he got a reputation, doubtless
 >>deserved, as a liberal, and a good guy.

 >>In his two conversations with Reagan, Reagan (at least as
 >>reported in the part of the message I snipped) did almost all
 >>the talking. Reagan, as I'm sure we all know, was fond of asking
 >>whether the US and the USSR would drop their differences if
 >>aliens appeared. Twice he asked that entirely rhetorical
 >>question to Shevardnadze, whose only reported answer was
 >>something to the effect of "Yeah, sure."

 >>Now, suddenly, this makes Shevardnadze a "UFO personality," even
 >>though no other time, as far as I know, was he associated in any
 >>way with UFOs or ufology. And it makes his appearance in
 >>Washington at the same time as Lara Johnstone's "a strange
 >>coincidence."

 >>Credulous people, it seems, are ready to believe just about
 >>anything.

 >Greg and listfolk,

 >Well said. I'll admit that my eyes bugged out even more than
 >usual at the strange characterization of Shevardnadze as a "UFO
 >personality". It also bears mentioning that according to
 >Reagan's best biographer, veteran political journalist and
 >longtime Reagan observer Lou Cannon, the former President's
 >occasional woolly statements about earth-uniting hostile aliens
 >were almost certainly took their inspiration from
 >science-fiction movies he'd seen in his youth. (If memory
 >serves, Cannon even cited several likely candidates.) Movies
 >were a huge influence on Reagan, and on occasion (as 60 Minutes
 >once documented in a memorable segment) he had trouble
 >distinguishing between a movie plot and an event that actually
 >happened.

 >Without much better evidence than exists now - actually, none at
 >all exists now - it is foolish, and frankly ignorant, to read
 >Reagan's remarks as hinting at knowledge of non-cinematic ET
 >visitation.
 >Jerry Clark

A breath of fresh air returns to the airwaves after a noticeable
absence. The dynamic duo of Clark and Sandow bring much needed
knowledge and perspective to the list.


Dick Hall










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   Sep > Sep 1

                          Cellular & Infrared Alert

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 18:45:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 18:54:53 -0400
Subject: Cellular & Infrared Alert


CELLULAR ALERT:

I would like to collect sightings in which there are reports of
cellular structure. I have recently been informed by Don
Burleson that he has analyzed the Lubbock Light photos of Hart
and has found a rather startling hexagonal cell structure.

His discovery prompted me to review a video taken by Ed Walters
in 1991. I recalled that it, too, showed a cellular structure.
You can read about this and see "grabbed frames" at
http://brumac.8k.com/ DockVideo/DockVideo.html.

I recall that there have been other reports of cellular
structure (visual-only sightings) in the past and I now appeal
to the collective recall of UpDates to identify such reports for
review and analysis.


INFRARED ALERT:

I recently saw a video taken in Ohio of a strange light/object
which appears occasionally.... a class of "spook light"... or
similar to the lights reported by Harley Rutledge (Operation
Identification, Prentiss Hall, 1981) that appeared in th
Piedmont region of Missouri many times in the 1970's (and
perhaps still do). In this case, in Ohio about a month, there
were several people in the countryside looking for a light which
had appeared quite often to single and multiple witnesses. THe
nature of this light, as with the lights described by Rutledge ,
is not known.

Because the witnesses were waiting to see if the light would
appear one of them had a video camera ready. When it appeared
she managed to get several seconds of video. The strange thing
(besides the existence of the light itself) is the difference
between the multiple-witness description of how the light
disappeared and what appears on the video. THe witnesses agreed
that the light appeared and moved very slowly to the right over
a period of several seconds and then faded out.

The video shows the light. Slight camera motion due to hand
vibration combined with the lack of a fixed reference images
(too dark to see the surroungings) masked any slow motion that
the witnesses may have seen.

However, when the light disappears (as confirmed vocally by a
witness), on the video it dims slightly (the image is never
bright) and then "zooms" upward and to the right. In a few
frames it covers an angle of perhaps 10 degrees or so (difficult
to measure on a frame by frame basis because the image is just
above noise "snow" level).

The witnesses did not see any rapid departure motion, but the
camera evidently did.

How could this be?

It could be if the object changed its radiated power spectrum
from visible light to near infrared, which is a portion of the
spectrum just "below" (in frequency) the light frequency that we
see as red. If this happened the camera could still "see" it
because the video camera can detect and record near infrared
(IR).

I have done experiments which prove that IR light detected by a
video camera appears as a white image when played back. The
image of this light is white as it zooms to the right and
disappears. (More details of this event will be provided
elsewhere as analysis proceeds.)

There is a precedent for recorded spectrum change. During a
"Bubba" sighting in Pensacola, FL (multiple witness sighting)
the witnesses saw a bright red light suddenly get a lot dimmer
before fading out. Photos taken with infrared film and no IR
filter on the camera show the opposite: the image got much
bigger, indicating an increase in total radiation from the
light, as it dimmed to the visual observers. For complete
details see http://brumac.8k.com and look for the "Bubba"
sightings. You will have to skip through to the section on
"invisible light".

I would like to collect any sightings in which there is clear
evidence of spectral shift. I realize there won't be many as
yet, but (a) video cameras have been around for quite a long
time and they can detect IR, (b) the newer digital still cameras
could probably also detect IR (I haven't tested this assumption
with a digital camera.... perhaps someone could?) and (c) there
may be regular photography cameras in which people have used IR
film that has been around for (ages).

So: keep your eyes open for cellular and IR evidence!










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   Sep > Sep 1

                'Strange Days... Indeed' Tonight - Hopkins &

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 19:04:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 19:04:13 -0400
Subject: 'Strange Days... Indeed' Tonight - Hopkins &



From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

Joining Scott Robbins & I tonight:

Budd Hopkins
Lara Johnstone

and regulars

Dave Furlotte
John Velez

The program runs from 10:00 to 1:00 a.m. Eastern.

It can be listened to via:

www.cfrb.com

and reached at:

416-872-1010 [tell 'em you're a subscriber to UpDates]

sdi@cfrb.com [monitor next to mic.]


ebk











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   Sep > Sep 2

             Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Deardorff

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 16:49:50 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 10:27:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Deardorff


 >Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 08:03:05 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind

 >>From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Source: The Village Voice
 >>http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0135/segall2.php
 >>Week of August 29 - September 4, 2001

 >>Close Encounter of the Raelian Kind
 >>by Rebecca Segall

 >>Raelianism was founded 30 years ago in France by auto-racing
 >>reporter Claude Vorilhon. Now known as "Rael", he claims that in
 >>1973 he was approached by a four-foot-tall alien who identified
 >>himself as one of the "Elohim" - humanoid, all-powerful
 >>extraterrestrials who had created life on Earth through cloning.
 >>Vorilhon was the chosen son. His single mother had been
 >>artificially inseminated by one of their number, and he was to
 >>prepare earthlings for the Elohim's return.

 ><snip>

 >Didn't some large western religion (the name escapes me,
 >something about holy water and budget forgiveness)... start out
 >with precisely the same silly rap?

Hi Larry,

Well, Christianity's Immaculate Conception might be construed to
be about the same thing.

 >As I recall, the biblical Hebrews called the Almighty "Elohim".
 >Any student of ancient religions should know about that, maybe
 >even a former race-car driver who (also) attended Catholic
 >school.

Yes, Elohim is one of several Hebrew names (El, Eloah, Yahweh)
all referring to the Judeo-Christian God. However, "Elohim" is
also used in the Hebrew to refer to pagan gods (plural); it's a
plural word. And so it seems quite likely to me that the plural
"the gods" was its original meaning, which was part of oral
tradition for centuries and got written into the earliest
writings that preceded their Scriptures (i.e., "the gods" did
this, and "the gods" did that). Then after early Judaism shifted
from polytheism through henotheism to monotheism, "Elohim" came
to be interpreted as the singular 'God'.

 >...
 >Frankly, this sounds like a classic French con-artist;
 >commercially tapping the un-met religious needs of thousands if
 >not millions; themselves forever awaiting Divine Rapture,
 >self-washing dishes and dry stockings that don't grow holes on
 >the bottom like mine do.

If you were to read Rael's book, _The Message Given to Me by
Extra-Terrestrials_ (1986), you'd find various rather silly
statements, as you find with most contactees. And you'd find a
particular religious slant, which is also the case with many or
most other contactees. What Rael was taught favors an ET form of
Judaism and disparages Christianity. E.g., if Jesus had been
properly understood 2000 years ago, it says that all the
Christians in the world would today be Jews. Another example:
"The people of Israel (are) the most intelligent race."

I tend to regard him as an actual contactee, though there were
only two alleged witnesses to one of his definitive sightings to
support his claims, and no photos or any such. It's indeed quite
astounding that he's managed to drum up such a large following
on the basis of no independently presented supporting evidence.
Evidently his followers like his message, as you say, which
includes the inducement of lots of free love.


Jim Deardorff








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   Sep > Sep 2

                Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 15:53:31 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 10:32:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -


 >Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 10:56:33 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <shooter@afterimagephoto.tv>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 08:31:47 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

 >Mr. Lehmberg,

 >Let's say that the government gave up and said, "Okay. You win.
 >Here are all the files on ET life and ET craft".

 >And it turned out that ET life and ET craft simply didn't exist,
 >after all....

And maybe gravity too is a figment of our imagination? Maybe we
were just convinced of it and now believe it and if we did not
believe it then we would levitate? ;-)

I am sorry to say, but I fail to see how so many millions of
people can have similar and different experiences, and we have
goverments who are known for their devious attempts at
manipulation and control and secrets and lies, and you think
that there is 'nothing going on'? ;-)

Let's assume that that possibility occurs! If all the people who
don't know finally manage to find out it was just some
mind-control experiment by the CIA, or whatever, that ET/UFOs do
not exist! Then those people will have found some truth! For
those millions of persons it would be worth it! ;-)

Either way, my friend, my life for the truth - _whatever_ that
truth may be - is worth it! ;-)

<snip>

 >_That_ is why Ms. Johnstone's act is
 >senseless. Unless the pro-UFO crowd gets the answer they want to
 >hear  - be it the truth or not - she will die from starvation.
 >Stupid.

I hope you do not mind if I decide what is, and is not, a
senseless act to commit with _my_ body? I would not wish to
instruct you what to do with yours?

I imagine there is some anger behind this issue that you are not
willing to look at or admit to yourself? Possibly some secrets
you are hiding from your own consciousness?

Just a thought

Lara


+=============================================+
|   Hungerstrike Requesting President Bush    |
|   honor his agreement to tell the American  |
| people the truth about UFO's, by supporting |
| the Disclosure Project witnesses to testify |
|  about their extensive knowledge of UFO's,  |
| advanced energy and propulsion systems, etc.|
+---------------------------------------------+
|       Bush UFO Disclosure Request:          |
|     http://www.bushufodisclosure.org/       |
|           Disclosure Project:               |
|     http://www.disclosureproject.org/       |
+=============================================+








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   Sep > Sep 2

             Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Cameron

From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
Date: 1 Sep 2001 17:41:32 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 11:25:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Cameron


 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze
 >Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:50:34 -0400

 >>Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:34:15 -0400
 >>Subject: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze
 >>To: bravehrt@concentric.net, sqquishy@altavista.com
 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>

 >>A strange coincidence has arisen.

 >>Lara is planning to be in Washington Oct.4 as part of her
 >>commitment to get President Bush to keep his promise made to
 >>Charles Huffer in July 2000 related to UFOs.

 >>In Washington at the same time as Lara, according to a press
 >>release from the White House today will be a famous UFO
 >>personality Eduard Shevardnadze. He will be meeting with
 >>President Bush Oct.5. Will they discuss UFOs? Only time will
 >>tell.

 >>Shevardnadze gained his UFO reputation after having two
 >>conversations with former President Ronald Reagan.

 ><snip>

 >This is just too much.

 >Shevardnadze is not a UFO personality. He's the President of the
 >former Soviet republic of Georgia, a country that (like many
 >former Soviet lands) is not in good shape. Before this he was
 >foreign minister under Gorbachev, in the last years of the
 >Soviet Union, during which he got a reputation, doubtless
 >deserved, as a liberal, and a good guy.

Come on Greg. The UFO personality thing was a joke. The way you
have this written you seem to actually believe that there are
UFO personalities.

 >In his two conversations with Reagan, Reagan (at least as
 >reported in the part of the message I snipped) did almost all
 >the talking.

This would make sense as all we have is Reagan's version of the
story.

 >Reagan, as I'm sure we all know, was fond of asking
 >whether the US and the USSR would drop their differences if
 >aliens appeared. Twice he asked that entirely rhetorical
 >question to Shevardnadze, whose only reported answer was
 >something to the effect of "Yeah, sure."

That's not what Shevardnadze said.

 >Now, suddenly, this makes Shevardnadze a "UFO personality," even
 >though no other time, as far as I know, was he associated in any
 >way with UFOs or ufology. And it makes his appearance in
 >Washington at the same time as Lara Johnstone's "a strange
 >coincidence."

Now do you know how many time Shevardnadze was involved? I can
guarantee most people only knew of one reference till I posted
this orginal message, because I found the second only months ago
in the Reagan files in California. Let's not start developing
theories and conclusions based on what we think might have
happened.

 >Credulous people, it seems, are ready to believe just about
 >anything.

I totally agree.

Grant Cameron


"Are you ready for the revolution?"
Lara Johnstone, a California woman who began a Hunger Strike for
Disclosure on July 28th.
Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping!
http://www.shopping.altavista.com











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             Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Cameron

From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
Date: 1 Sep 2001 18:00:52 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 11:28:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Cameron


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze
 >Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:14:09 -0500

 >>From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze
 >>Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:50:34 -0400


 >Greg and listfolk,

 >Well said. I'll admit that my eyes bugged out even more than
 >usual at the strange characterization of Shevardnadze as a "UFO
 >personality".

Jerry. Are you another who believes there are people and then
"UFO personalities"?

It also bears mentioning that according to
 >Reagan's best biographer, veteran political journalist and
 >longtime Reagan observer Lou Cannon, the former President's
 >occasional woolly statements about earth-uniting hostile aliens
 >were almost certainly took their inspiration from
 >science-fiction movies he'd seen in his youth. (If memory
 >serves, Cannon even cited several likely candidates.)

Did Cannon state that he had gotten this from Reagan or was he
just guessing? Reagan referred to the "alien invasion" as "my
fantasy" and I know that for a fact as I have it in Reagan's own
handwritting. In the famous U.N. speech the writer took the
reference out and Reagan insisted that it be put back in. It
therefore seemed to carry some significance to the President.

 >Movies
 >were a huge influence on Reagan, and on occasion (as 60 Minutes
 >once documented in a memorable segment) he had trouble
 >distinguishing between a movie plot and an event that actually
 >happened.

This means nothing. I checked the Reagan movie theory and based
on my research the Reagan Library can actually produce an entire
list of movies he viewed while President to anyone who E-mails
them. The movie "ET." was not on the original list, so what does
this prove. Nothing.

Jimmy Carter holds the record for movies, almost twice what
Reagan viewed. What does this prove. Again nothing.

 >Without much better evidence than exists now - actually, none at
 >all exists now - it is foolish, and frankly ignorant, to read
 >Reagan's remarks as hinting at knowledge of non-cinematic ET
 >visitation.

It is ignorant to assume it means ET visitation, and ignorant to
believe it does not mean ET visitation.

Just for the record. Clinton made so many UFO and alien invasion
references, he makes Reagan look like Phil Klass on the UFO
issue. He is fast becoming a "UFO personality."

Also for the record. Reagan's public liaison people were tasked
to keep Reagan away from school kids who crowded around him
after speeches, for fear of what Reagan would say. One staffer
said "The Goddamndest things would come out of his mouth."


Grant Cameron


"Are you ready for the revolution?"
Lara Johnstone, a California woman who began a Hunger Strike for
Disclosure on July 28th.









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               Re: New Developments In Linda Abduction - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 21:17:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 12:34:58 -0400
Subject: Re: New Developments In Linda Abduction - Velez


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 11:22:46 EDT
 >Subject: Re: New Developments In Linda Abduction
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: New Developments In Linda Abduction
 >>Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:11:42 -0600

 >>>Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:28:38 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>From: George Hansen <gphansen2001@yahoo.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: New Developments In Linda Cortile Abduction
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>As an "experiencer" and "abductee" I can vouch for all of the
 >>above statements you have made.

 >So, you are somebody who claims special knowledge that others
 >don't have, and expect everyone to take your claim at face
 >value, just because you say it.

 >>Whether I believe you are sincere or not is another question.
 >>Your use of Philip Klass' opinions and/or material are evidence
 >>of your lack of sincerity.

 >Oh, views different from yours are not just in error, they are
 >false. O course they must be lies. But, we must keep in mind
 >that you are entirely sincere. After all, you have just told us
 >so.

 ><snip>

 >>Sincerely, Sue Strickland, ex-abductee

 >By this, we can assume that you are not currently under the
 >control of the Greys, or sending this from a laptop inside one
 >of their ships?

 >I just saw Men in Black again last night, along with a group of
 >adolescents. A delightful flick, but without the sincerety that
 >the screenwiters could have had by the addition of an Archbishop
 >or two. There were only creepy bugs.


Hi Bob,

Being a little 'rough' on Sue aren't you? Kinda like watching
Mike Tyson beat up on one of his girlfriends. Not a pretty
sight. Or even a 'fair' fight.

As for Dr. Hansen, he was the guy responsible for splattering
Linda's real name all over the Internet four years ago. What
does that tell you about his (alleged) ethics? Not believing
someone is not an excuse for violating that person's privacy or
right to chose anonymity.

His behavior throughout has spoken volumes to me about the
nature of his character. His insistence on using Linda's real
surname in public forums is indicative of, and 'on par' with,
the quality of the rest of his offering on the matter. Garbage
in, garbage out. Don't take my word for it. Read it for
yourself.

This isn't a defense of Budd, Linda, or the case. I have no idea
whether it is all true or not. I do know that Budd isn't the low
and deceptive character that Hansen paints him to be. And Linda
simply doesn't have the _guile_ it would take to create and
execute a hoax of this complexity. Ask anyone who actually
_knows_ them both if my words are not absolutely true.

As for my friend Sue:

Put away the billy-club. I know Sue. You can "talk" to her
without resorting to verbally mugging her as you have done
above. Save that for the jokers that deserve it.

I do!  ;)

Regards,

John Velez







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              Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 21:04:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 12:40:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Aldrich


 >Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 08:03:05 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind

 >>From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>Source: The Village Voice

 >>http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0135/segall2.php

 >>Week of August 29 - September 4, 2001

 >>Close Encounter of the Raelian Kind
 >>by Rebecca Segall

 >>Raelianism was founded 30 years ago in France by auto-racing
 >>reporter Claude Vorilhon. Now known as "Rael", he claims that in
 >>1973 he was approached by a four-foot-tall alien who identified
 >>himself as one of the "Elohim" - humanoid, all-powerful
 >>extraterrestrials who had created life on Earth through cloning.
 >>Vorilhon was the chosen son. His single mother had been
 >>artificially inseminated by one of their number, and he was to
 >>prepare earthlings for the Elohim's return.

 ><snip>

 >Didn't some large western religion (the name escapes me,
 >something about holy water and budget forgiveness)... start out
 >with precisely the same silly rap?

 >As I recall, the biblical Hebrews called the Almighty "Elohim".
 >Any student of ancient religions should know about that, maybe
 >even a former race-car driver who (also) attended Catholic
 >school.

 >Sons of God were plentiful in ancient times. Every Egyptian
 >Pharoah directly descended from the God(s) without silly regard
 >to biology or genetics.

 >Frankly, this sounds like a classic French con-artist;
 >commercially tapping the un-met religious needs of thousands if
 >not millions; themselves forever awaiting Divine Rapture,
 >self-washing dishes and dry stockings that don't grow holes on
 >the bottom like mine do.

Ah, Larry, funny you should mention Egypt, how about this story
of the Holy Child?


A woman with the blood of the kings in her veins received an
announcement from a heavenly messenger that she was to bear the
holy child.

The god came unto her and held a holy symbol beneath her nose.
The symbol looked something like a cross. There was a great and
pleasing fragrance throughout the abode and joy was felt
everywhere within the house.

The woman found she was pregnant and in due course delivered the
Holy Child who was a few days after birth presented in the
temple.


Sound somewhat familar?

This story is carved on the temple of Hatshepsut at Karnak,
Egypt. Hatshepsut was the Holy Child, her mother was Queen of
Egypt. The cross-like device was the ankh. Slight liberties are
taken here with the story. Since Hatshepsut was a woman-regent
who became Pharoah, she used this story as divine reinforcement
for rule, which seems to have been one of usurpment. One of the
greatest conquorers the world had ever seen did, however, hold
still for this story and didn't contest his (half?) sister's
reign even though as the story goes the gods favored him. I
don't think any of the Thutmosis the First through the Third
would have had much good to say about this story, but there is
no recorded information on that. The Southern Baptists in our
tour didn't much like such a story which antedated their
favorite one by 1000 years.

It gets better or worse depending on your view point. The
Egyptians had to swear to their gods that they had carried out
commandments rather stricter than the Israeli God.

The Goddess of Truth, Maat, placed a person's heart on a scale
balanced against a feather. A good and true heart would be
light, but heart with guilt and sin could not pass the test.
Since it was nearly impossible to keep all the commandments,
there were little magical (or is majical?) spells that could be
used to fool the gods and Maat, a way of getting around heavenly
judgement and the responsibities for one's actions. Ouch!

The way to get ahead in this country or North America is to
claim the divine, or now spacemen, as your ancestors, or at
least some special relationship with the divine, or spacemen
that others don't have. Hmm. Wonder if Rael is into Kool Aid or
high powered flashlights. His minon did get to testify before
Congress, maybe someone is doing something wrong here?


Jan Aldrich








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               Re: Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements - Boreham

From: Robert Boreham <fatrob83@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 01:36:46 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 12:45:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements - Boreham


 >From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements
 >Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 14:26:57 -0600

 >>From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements
 >>Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:16:34 +0100

 >>>From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements
 >>>Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:19:33 +0100

 >>>Georgina Bruni has recently 'had a go' at our website using Nick
 >>>Pope as ammunition for her claim that we have "misinterpreted"
 >>>the MOD file.

 >>I have spent the last few days trying to undo the debunking that
 >>Clarke has done in the Guardian article and on his website. I
 >>was asked to talk to a journalist from The Guardian two weeks
 >>ago but refused because I know their take on this subject. This
 >>was the very newspaper that debunked the case when Ian Ridpath
 >>fed them the 'lighthouse theory' in 1985.

 >>It is a pity that the broadsheets don't take this case
 >>seriously. Over the last month or so, five top journalists have
 >>had the story, and two have written it up for publication, only
 >>to have it pulled at the last minute. Unfortunately, the only
 >>national paper that ran the story without debunking it was the
 >>Star - a tabloid. I have to question why, but am of the opinion
 >>that this sort of evidence makes the editors nervous.


 >Thanks for clearing up a lot of questions I had after reading the
 >report.

 >I do have a question or two.

 >Did anyone _verify_ the reported "woman's scream"... talk to the
 >occupants at the farm house immediately after the incident? If
 >so, what, if anything was said? If not, why was this aspect of
 >the investigation tabled?

 >Thanks for your answers in advance.


The woman's scream can still be heard in the forest - it scared
the crap out of me last month when I visited Rendlesham. Not
sure, but I had the impression it was geese, although I beleve
the local deer population also make a similar noise to a scream.









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                    Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert - Young

From: YoungBob2@aol.com
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 21:39:03 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 12:56:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert - Young


 >Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 18:45:13 -0400
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Cellular & Infrared Alert
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >CELLULAR ALERT:

 >I would like to collect sightings in which there are reports of
 >cellular structure. I have recently been informed by Don
 >Burleson that he has analyzed the Lubbock Light photos of Hart
 >and has found a rather startling hexagonal cell structure.

Bruce:

I saw a very large enlargement of what was purported to be part
of a Lubbock Lights picture. The "cellular" appearance seemed to
me to possibly be the printer's dot pattern of an image which
had been printed.

Another possibility was that it might have been the grain of a
highly enlarged image.

If details were available about the source of the image used in
the analysis, it might be possible to figure out more.


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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                     Voyager Newsletter No. 20 [Extract]

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 04:02:11 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 13:09:22 -0400
Subject: Voyager Newsletter No. 20 [Extract]


Voyager Newsletter No. 20


1. Official Documents Demolish 'UFO Cover Up' Absurdity.

2. Nick Pope and A Number of Contradictory Tales.

3. Disclosure Exposure.

4. Has Sensational New Evidence Identified the Rendlesham 'UFO'?

5. The UFO Research List.


                         O0O~O0O~O0O~O0O


1. Official Documents Demolish 'UFO Cover Up' Absurdity.

Congratulations to Dr David Clarke on his acquisition of
previously unreleased Ministry of Defence [MoD] documentation

Dr Clarke has successfully obtained what seems to effectively be
the MoD's, apparently non-existent, 'Rendlesham forest UFOs'
file.

The contents are a landmark disclosure.

A highly commended new web site has been set up with freely
available copies of the main documents, at:

http://www.flyingsaucery.com/


There were two distinct 'UFO incidents' and it's
comprehensively established that Halt's memo contained the
wrong dates.

The incidents occurred at circa 0300 on the morning of 26
December and the night/early morning of 27/28 December. Halt
erroneously reports the dates as 27 and 29/30 December
respectively.

The MoD file confirms this astonishing faux pas was a major
factor why their investigations focused on spurious data.

Incredibly, the MoD papers confirm it was 1983, when science
writer Ian Ridpath wrote to them, before they were even aware
of the true situation.


How could Halt have been so mistaken.

It's a question which I may be the only person ever to have
raised directly. During 1997, it was publicised that American
journalist Salley Rayl was to interview Halt and I enquired if
she would please ask some questions on my behalf.

The 13 May, 1997 transcript records:

RAYL: We received an e-mail earlier in the day from a fellow by
the name of James Easton who lives in Scotland and apparently
has been researching this case during recent months.

[...]

One thing that he mentioned and a question that I would like to
pass on to you is why have there been variances in the dates
given for both incidents? Your memo claims that the dates were
on the evening, early morning of the 26th, 27th and 28th, 29th
of December, respectively. But elsewhere, you know, the dates
have been given as 25 to 26 and 29 to 30, he says. So why, why
are there differences in those dates?

HALT: Well, I tried to go back and recover the police blotter
and the security blotter think I mentioned to you earlier to
re- affirm the dates. Keep in mind, I wrote the memo several
weeks later. And it was not a really important memo. The date
was not critical. The critical portion was, you know, what
happened and are you interested? And how about getting involved
and let's investigate this. It's possible that I, I put the
date down wrong. But I don't believe so. I tried to verify
later and the police blotters had been taken from repository,
probably by a, how shall I say, curiosity seeker... [END]

[...]

HALT: The Wing Commander at that time was not present. ...He
and I discussed this incident the day after, which was a day or
two after which was a Saturday morning. I remember running into
him in the hallway of the building we shared a common office
building and I told him about it. He knew a little bit, but I
told him some details and told him I made the tape and he was
very interested and asked to hear the tape. I gave him the tape
and played it for him and he said, "May I take this to the
Third Air Force, to the staff meeting next Tuesday or
Wednesday?" I said, "Certainly." Well, I couldn't tell him, no.
And he took it down and played it to the staff and the General
looked at the staff and said, "First, the Wing Commander said,
'Is he a credible witness?' and the answer was, 'Yes.' So he
turned to the staff and said, "What do we do now?" And nobody
knew what to do. So there was some chuckling in the room and I
understand the comment was, "Well, it's a British affair. Let's
give it to them."

RAYL: And that's what you did?

HALT: And that's what everybody did. And I was told when he
came back, he gave me the tape back and thanked me and said,
"Get with Don Moreland. Let the British handle this." [END OF
EXTRACT]


Crucially, Halt clarifies that a senior General attended the
staff meeting. It seems a reasonable deduction this was General
Charles A. Gabriel, who was at that time Chief of Staff of the
US Air Staff and Commander in Chief of US Air Forces in Europe
at Ramstein AFB, Germany.

It would correlate with a letter contained within the MoD's
papers, when on 16 February 1981, Squadron Leader Badcock wrote
to them:

"I have spoken with Sqn Ldr Moreland at Bentwaters and he
considered the Deputy Base Commander [Halt] a sound source. I
asked if the incident had been reported on the USAF net and I
was advised that tape recorders of the evidence had been handed
to Gen Gabriel who happened to be visiting the station. Perhaps
it would be reasonable to ask if we could have tape recordings
as well."

I have a FOIA request that has been with Ramstein AFB for some
time now and which seeks to clarify a number of related issues.


Halt didn't take any witness statements until a full week
afterwards and states this delay was due to the holiday period.

Apparently, written testimonies were only requested from those
who had participated in the first night's events. Presumably,
as Halt was directly involved in the second incident, he
considered there was no need to document those proceedings,
plus he had the verbal notes from his microcassette recording.

Halt confirmed to Sally Rayl, "Around New Year's Eve, I took
statements and interviewed the men who had taken part in the
initial incident".

These were the statements I acquired in 1998 and the existence
of copies was first revealed in 'Rendlesham Unravelled' - see:

http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/rendlshm.htm


As four of the five statements record the date of our initial
'UFO' scare and verify it as 26 December, there should never
have been any confusion.

If, as Halt stated in response to my question, he attempted to
substantiate the correct dates before sending his memo, why not
refer to these testimonies he had personally obtained from the
witnesses?


Halt informed the Ministry that following a sighting of
"unusual lights outside the back gate at RAF Woodbridge" a
patrol was permitted to investigate, even though the forest was
outwith USAF jurisdictions. He wrote:

"Thinking an aircraft might have crashed or been forced down,
they called for permission to go outside the gate to
investigate. The on-duty flight chief responded and allowed
three patrolmen to proceed on foot. The individuals reported
seeing a strange glowing object in the forest".

It seems the 'strange glowing object' reported by them turned
out to be a farmhouse, as confirmed in the statement of one
participant, Airman Ed Cabansag:

"We figured the lights were coming from past the forest, since
nothing was visible as we passed through the woody forest. We
could see a glowing near the beacon light, but as we got closer
we found it to be a lit-up farmhouse. After we had passed
through the forest, we thought it had to be an aircraft
accident. So did CSC as well. But we ran and walked a good 2
miles past our vehicle, until we got to a vantage point where
we could determine that what we were chasing was only a beacon
light off in the distance. Our route through the forest and
field was a direct one, straight towards the light".


Indeed, it was the same 'glowing farmhouse', at Capel Green,
which so alarmed Halt during the second 'UFO' incident, when he
ventured into Rendlesham forest in search of the 'UFO' which
had reportedly been seen again. As he recalled in the interview
with Salley Rayl:

"Just prior to that, we had also noticed that the farmer's
house appeared to be glowing, as though there were a fire
inside. All the windows were bright red and sort of flickering
and I was quite concerned for the occupants of the house".

During the past year, local researcher Robert McLean has on
more than one occasion followed the route documented on Halt's
microcassette recording and, easily locating the same
farmhouse, was able to see for himself the "house on fire
effect", which is, "quite an effective illusion".

It's only a result of local lighting conditions.

[...]


However, the final member of that patrol, Airman First Class
John Burroughs, was adamant they never observed a 'craft',
merely some lights which implied an object was there. On 20
September, 1991, Jim Speiser published on ParaNet the
transcript of a brief series of questions which Burroughs had
answered. Amongst these was the following dialogue concerning
the 'Unsolved Mysteries' documentary, broadcast on 18
September:

POWELL: Regarding one of the last clips shown, which depicted
one or two airmen prone as a very nearby and clearly craft-like
object rose from a landing position and took off, do you know
if there were any ground traces of this?

BURROUGHS: First of all, we did not see a structured 'craft' as
was depicted. All we saw were lights that seemed to imply a
structure of some kind. Later inspection showed three round
depressions at that spot, forming an equilateral triangle. The
British Police explained these as 'rabbit holes'.

During a 1993 interview for 'Fate' magazine [Fate 46, No 9,
September 1993, pp 70-71], Burroughs also told Antonio Huneeus,
"I never saw anything metallic or anything hard".

Cabansag's statement refers only to some unfamiliar lights, the
origin of which was never resolved, except for the "beacon
light".

This is not exactly the overall scenario outlined in Halt's
memo.

I know that John Burroughs still maintains how only some
anomalous lights were seen, as I've been in touch with him. In
due course, it's anticipated that the informative, first-hand
account which Burroughs has confided will be published.


Neither did the lights 'manoeuvre through the trees and
disappear' as portrayed. Ultimately, the lights were seen next
to a farmhouse, before being lost from sight, as explained in
Burroughs' statement:

"We got up to a fence that separated the trees from the open
field and you could see the lights down by a farmers house. We
climbed over the fence and started heading towards the red and
blue lights and they just disappeared. Once we reached the
farmer's house we could see a beacon going around so we went
towards it. We followed it for about 2 miles before we could
see it was coming from a lighthouse.

We had just crossed a creek and were told to come back when we
saw a blue light to our left in the trees. It was only there
for a min and it just streaked away. After that, we didn't see
anything so we returned to the truck".


Conspicuously absent in Halt's memo is the story of how
Orfordness lighthouse played a role in those first and
formative 'UFO' perceptions.

That 'blue light' which seemed to 'streak away' is the sole
basis for Halt's contention, "The object was briefly sighted
approximately an hour later near the back gate".

There was never any 'object' observed again.

If the Ministry had also been advised by Halt that the tiny,
(confirmed by Halt to Sally Rayl), pulsating light he
personally observed within Rendlesham forest, as further
detailed in the memo, was seen again "clear off to the coast"
(documented in his microcassette recording), the entire context
of these 'UFO' alarms might have become more evident.


One additional factor which Halt drew attention to was
'radiation readings', taken at what was considered to be the
first night's 'UFO landing site'. We can see from the MoD's
file that they also wasted time on this.

It's long been demonstrated that the readings were minuscule -
see for example:

http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/newslet1.htm

The bottom line is, as detailed therein, is that incidental
'radiation readings' taken from a nearby farmer's field were
actually higher than most of the 'landing site' readings!


It's welcome that the MoD have finally released copies of the
various correspondence which Halt's memo generated and it's a
telling insight.

If the Ministry had realised what was contained within the
original witness statements, it's questionable if they would
even have bothered investigating whether radar tracking
evidence existed.

Although there have been claims a 'UFO' was tracked on radar,
prior to the first incident, it was documented that the radar
tower were contacted and could offer no assistance.

Halt also requested a statement from Flight Controller Fred
Buran, who was stationed at RAF Bentwaters Central Security
Control and had directed operations.

He testified:

"I monitored their progress (Burroughs, Cabansag and Penniston)
as they entered the wooded area".

"Due to the colors they had reported, I alerted them to the
fact that they may have been approaching a light aircraft crash
scene. I directed SSgt Coffey to check with the tower to see if
they could throw some light on the subject. They could not
help".


What's unveiled by the MoD's own internal documents could not
be much further removed from a 'cover up'.

It merely serves to once more evidence the extraordinary
misperceptions and fallacious claims which have been inherent
to the 'Rendlesham forest UFOs' and that when further
unravelled, the facts reveal infinitely more about human
nature, than not telling the people ET was here.

Also now set in context are previous comments by Nick Pope, who
worked for the MoD. In order to clarify Pope's exact duties, I
queried this with the Ministry and on 29 September 1999, Gaynor
South, from 'Secretariat(Air Staff)2a' replied:

"Mr Pope was employed as an Executive Officer in Secretariat
(Air Staff) 2. His post was designated Sec(AS)2a.

The main duties of the post concern non-operational RAF
activities overseas and diplomatic clearance policy for
military flights abroad.

A small percentage of time is spent dealing with reports from
the public about alleged 'UFO' sightings and associated public
correspondence".

On 5 May, 1996, Pope was interviewed by 'UFO Magazine' [UK] and
spoke about the Ministry's 'Rendlesham' file, or to be more
precise, its absence:

UFO: In 1980 one of the most extraordinary incidents involving
a UFO occurred in Suffolk, just a few hundred yards from the
joint USAF/RAF bases at Bentwaters and Woodbridge. DS8 was the
name of the MoD's UFO department at that time who handled the
case. Your thoughts on this one?

POPE: Rendlesham is the 'Holy Grail' of British Ufology isn't
it?

UFO: It was bigger than DS8 could handle - isn't that true?

POPE: I believe Rendlesham has an extraterrestrial explanation.
I am convinced on the first night of the activity a small
remote craft was seen by the guard patrol. As we all know,
trace evidence was found. Colonel Halt wrote his memorandum to
Whitehall...

UFO: On this insistence of a British officer?

POPE: Yes, but on each joint USAF/RAF base there is an RAF
Commander; but it's really only a nominal title; these
facilities are basically USAF bases. I believe for legal
reasons they must have an RAF Commander who acts as the conduit
between the USAF and the Ministry of Defence. My best
assessment of what happened next is - absolutely nothing! The
report was written on the 13th January and when it arrived at
Whitehall, whoever was doing the job didn't have the faintest
idea what to do with it, probably took one look at it and said,
what am I supposed to do? I am afraid to say it simply ended up
in a file. [END OF EXTRACT]


I'm sure Nick Pope will be interested to see the file which Dr
Clarke and others are now familiar with!

The interview continued:

POPE: The standard line on Rendlesham Forest is that the
incident was looked into, and nothing of defence significance
was uncovered. The challenge, as it where, to the department,
is that we have never seen the analysis.

UFO: But people want to know: who did this analysis? And on
what basis did it conclude there was no threat?

POPE: These are questions you might want to pose to Sec(AS)2a!

UFO: Does this not indicate that DS8 wasn't even a minor player
in the events that followed next. Bentwaters was on full alert
anyway due to the problems in Europe?

POPE: I believe we had just had the situation in Poland with
the trade union Solidarity, and this heightened international
tension.

[...]

UFO: Would it not have been different given such an incident
had occurred whilst you headed Sec(AS)2a? Would you have
launched an investigation?

POPE: I would have been on the first bloody train to
Bentwaters!

UFO: What kind of support would you have given?

POPE: I would have taken soil samples, and taken those to the
Defence Radiological Protection Service. I would have
immediately impounded the radar tapes and had them sent to me,
and immediately called RAF defence experts in, we would have
sat down, looked at the tapes and analysed the content to see
if they showed structured craft or spurious returns. Interview
statements would have followed...

UFO: But this allegedly did not happen in 1980?

POPE: At the end of the day this did not happen, so far as I am
aware.

UFO: Perhaps DS8 did these things and there was a general clamp
down of information?

POPE: If that had been the case it would have inevitably leaked
out. [END OF EXTRACT]


Pope concluded:

UFO: Was there a cover-up?

POPE: No. Not in the MoD - I think the MoD's response was just
ineffective.

UFO: That's a very big statement?

POPE: Yes, but if something of that magnitude was reported and
simply placed on file, then what else can you say? [END OF
EXTRACT]


We can now say that Pope was evidently oblivious to many key
facts.

Yet, the clues were there, as I emphasised in the first
'Voyager' newsletter published, during September 1998:

Contrary to Nick's conjecture that Col Halt's memo "simply
ended up in a file", is the information provided to myself last
year by Gaynor South at Secretariat(Air Staff)2a1a.

She wrote:

"You have questioned whether the Ministry of Defence thoroughly
investigated the events which are alleged to have taken place
at RAF Woodbridge/Rendlesham Forest. From Departmental records
available for the period in question, we have established that
all available information was looked at at the time by air
defence experts who were satisfied that nothing had occurred to
suggest that the UK Air Defence Region had been breached by
unauthorised foreign military activity on the nights in
question. In the absence of evidence corroborating Col Halt's
memo, which was sent some two weeks after the events in 1980,
and in the light of the Department's air defence remit, no
action was then deemed necessary".

This seems to be a categorical assurance "Departmental records
available for the period in question" do exist and substantiate
that Halt's report was investigated.

By Nick's previous admissions, the existence of any Ministry
file was possibly on a 'need to know' basis, and the facts seem
to confirm he didn't have any. [END OF EXTRACT]


This is now perhaps proven to be prophetic, although the
conclusions did seem obvious some years ago.

I wrote to Gaynor South, asking if copies of those
"Departmental records available for the period in question"
could be made public. That wasn't to be, however a more
accommodating attitude now seems to prevail and thanks to Dr
Clarke's continued, successful efforts, many pieces of the
'Rendlesham' puzzle have eventually fallen into place.


2. Nick Pope and A Number of Contradictory Tales.

Responding to this first ever publication of the Ministry's
file and my pertinent comments, Georgina Bruni, avowed 'UFO
cover up' devotee, proclaims:

"...an unstated aim seems to be an attempt to downplay the role
and views of Nick Pope. It is in their interest to do this
because Pope has consistently offered an insiders perspective
on ufology that contradicts the views of debunkers. The
comments from Randles and Easton are surely based on a brief
skim through the file from which most (but not all) of the
documents have been released. But Nick Pope worked on the
entire file (and numerous others) for three years and has
confirmed to me that in many respects Randles and Easton (and
indeed Clarke and others associated with this report) have
simply misunderstood the way in which the military and
government work. On this I have to agree".

My comments were in fact made after having seen a copy of the
complete Ministry of Defence papers released and subsequent to
private discussions concerning their contents.

As for the assertion, "Nick Pope worked on the entire file", if
Bruni read the comments she addresses, how could she fail to
note it has been highlighted in my analysis that not only had
Pope never 'worked' with the MoD's 'Rendlesham' file, he
claimed the 'file' didn't even exist!

Pope confirms he was employed by 'Secretariat(Air Staff)2a'
between 29 July 1991 and 26 July 1994. It was almost two years
afterwards, and a long time since he could have had any file
access, that Pope outlined his 'Rendlesham' conclusions to 'UFO
Magazine' [UK], as detailed above.

If Bruni was told by Pope that he "worked on the entire file",
and she hasn't just assumed this without checking the easily
available facts... what can we say except, here's the proof
otherwise.

According to Bruni, Pope "confirmed to me that in many respects
Randles and Easton (and indeed Clarke and others associated
with this report) have simply misunderstood the way in which
the military and government work...".

I don't believe these are the facts which have so
comprehensively been confirmed.

[...]


Consequent to a new development, is a potentially critical
breakthrough.

We might now be able to evidence the probable identity of those
peculiar lights which Burroughs, Cabansag and Penniston [BC&P]
observed down on the farm.

It's imperative we recognise that tales of these lights zooming
off into space contradict what was documented and come from
Penniston's subsequent 'recall', after he was subjected to
hypnosis. There's a noteworthy commentary on this by 'alien
abduction' researcher, David Jacobs, who was asked by 'OMNI on-
line' to "view and comment on the videotape of Penniston's
second hypnosis session".

[...]


I had set out the theory... and former Senior Airman Kenneth
Greene, stationed at RAF Bentwaters, has provided some
significant evidence which supports it.

He recently spoke about the 'UFO' which was encountered by a
fellow servicemen and himself in 1978:

"One thing I remembered after talking to you last was an
incident that occurred on my way to Bentwaters one night for
the Midnight shift. I was living off base at the time in a
small town called Darsham near Saxmundham, Suffolk. My room
mate and I were on a small country road and as we came round a
curve there was a small triangular object, about 8 feet in
height, stopped in middle of the road. This object had a small
flashing orange beacon on top and bright white lights emanating
from it at various points. Our immediate thought was that it
was a UFO...".

Incredible... here was another 'UFO', in the vicinity of BC&P's
1980 sighting and which exhibited distinctive, similar
characteristics - triangular 'shaped'/lighting, approximately
the same size, with a rotating orange light and a bank of other
beams below.

Are there any other correlations?

Yes, the 'country road' UFO had an orange beacon on top. BC&P's
object had a top light which Burroughs' sketch of the 'light
triangle', as noted above, shows to be "red and orange".

Note also that an orange light was apparently reported by
Penniston. According to Flight Commander Fred Buran's
statement:

"...SSgt Penniston said that he had never seen lights of this
color or nature in the area before. He described them as red,
blue, white and orange".

A typical vehicle warning beacon would be amber coloured, which
is close to "red and orange".

What was the 'triangular UFO' that Senior Airman Greene and his
room mate came across in 1978...

"Our immediate thought was that it was a UFO, but it turned out
to be...

[...]

In the meantime, what precisely remains as credible evidence of
a 'UFO'?

This pivotal 'sighting' was the foundation and catalyst for all
other Rendlesham forest 'UFO' reports which ensued, yet it's
abundantly obvious from those original testimonies there was no
'radar tracking' and no indication an object was seen to be
airborne, or reported as such to Central Security Control.
We've since learned that Burroughs never witnessed a definite
'craft' at all.

It's a tale of lights moving through farmland in the dead of
night and eventually found to be "down by a farmers house".

Perhaps now, we also know why. [END OF NEWSLETTER EXTRACT]


The full newsletter is available on-line, at:

http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/v20.txt


An addendum, as emphasised on the 'UFO Research List'
[http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UFORL/]:

I've obtained what is understood to be a press release, issued
by Georgina Bruni.

[...]

Amongst the claims made in an attempt to scrape together any
'evidence' which implies the MoD's files reveal a 'UFO cover
up' - despite the abject reverse being so comprehensively
documented therein - are some continued assertions from Nick
Pope.

As recently highlighted in the latest 'Voyager' newsletter and
also on this list, Pope originally went into great detail
explaining during various interviews how there was no MoD
'Rendlesham file', because the Ministry didn't even bother
investigating Halt's memo. So far as he was aware anyway.

Now, Bruni informs the media that she obtained a different
story direct from Pope himself:

"In fact the MOD files reveal that Nick Pope took enough of an
interest in the Rendlesham case to began further enquiries,
whilst at the same time being forced to comply with MOD policy
by doing what his predecessors did, spinning the usual MOD
line. But there is no doubt that he was considered by
ufologists to be the most active and helpful person to have
ever sat at the UFO desk. I thought it would be interesting to
ask him for his opinion on the release of these files. He told
me........

'I recognise most of the documents from my time in Secretariat
(Air Staff)'."


How can Pope recognise most of the 155 documents when he
claimed - after having left 'Secretariat(Air Staff)2a':

"The standard line on Rendlesham Forest is that the incident
was looked into, and nothing of defence significance was
uncovered. The challenge, as it where, to the department, is
that we have never seen the analysis".

As he also confirmed, when interviewed by Dave Clarke and Andy
Roberts in April this year - just before the MoD file was
released to Dr Clarke:

"I find Rendlesham bizarre; looking at the Rendlesham Forest
file, it starts obviously with Halt's memo and Don Moreland's
covering note and then frankly there isn't a lot. In fact, as I
recall, I don't think there is anything until the News of the
World and Chuck de Caro's documentary, some papers from the
Public Affairs Office 3rd Air Force about the handling of this
and then it turns into correspondence".

Asked - there must be something missing there then? - Pope
replied:

"Something missing or missing a trick, but it depends what you
mean. If you look very carefully at what you have been told
about Rendlesham, it says I think nothing more than Colonel
Halt's report was examined carefully at the time by those
officers responsible for looking at the Air Defence of the
realm and the conclusion was that nothing of any defence
significance was involved and as such no further action was
taken. Well, that is I'm sure technically a true statement.
Whether it implies that anyone actually sat down and did any
sort of sucking of teeth, you know, interviewing of witnesses,
etc I don't think it does - I think if that memo arrived to DS8
at the time, side-copied to two or three specialist divisions
and if it had sat on file with nothing else being done then the
statements made on Rendlesham are still true; it was examined
by, because when it came out of the envelope it would have been
read, so it was examined by, and its almost chicken and egg by
virtue of the fact that they placed it on the file and didn't
do any investigation with a capital I, you could say well, its
an assumption of course...".


Clearly, if Pope had in truth ever seen the papers now released
he wouldn't have to make "an assumption" that the Ministry's
entire case 'examination' comprised someone having a cursory
read of Halt's memo before sticking it in a file!

Perhaps he will explain the apparently incongruous divergence
[which I understand local media sources are now aware of] in
his claimed recollections.


Because this will become more suitable concerning some
impending media developments, there is a forthcoming new home
[which was a 'cloaked' URL to related 'UFOWorld' material] for
what has long been recognised (especially by former base
personnel) as the authoritative 'Rendlesham' web site.

It is, of course, the definitive:

www.rendlesham.com


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk







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   Sep > Sep 2

               Re: Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements - Easton

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 07:21:52 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 13:11:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements - Easton


 >From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 14:26:57 -0600
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements - Strickland

Sue asked:

 >Did anyone _verify_ the reported "woman's scream"... talk to the
 >occupants at the farm house immediately after the incident? If
 >so, what, if anything was said? If not, why was this aspect of
 >the investigation tabled?

Sue,

As first revealed within 'Voyager Newsletter No. 15', published
in October last year:

"From productive discussions on UFORL, Robert [McLean], myself
and other subscribers seem to be in agreement that we may have
solved another of the Rendlesham forest mysteries.

It relates to the following, as recalled in Burroughs' statement:

"We crossed a small open field that led into the trees where the
lights were coming from and as we were coming into the trees
there were strange noises, like a woman was screaming. Also the
woods lit up and you could hear the farm animals making a lot of
noise and there was a lot of movement in the woods. All three of
us hit the ground...".

It would appear that the source of those 'screams' was probably
the forest's Muntjac deer, also known as the 'barking deer',
which "click when alarmed and also squeak and scream when
frightened".
[END OF EXTRACT]


Of course, the Ministry never had sight of Burroughs' statement,
as acquired by Lt. Col. Halt, otherwise there would presumably
have been some significant insight - if not raising of eyebrows
and monocles dropped in cups of afternoon tea - when they
learned, as Burroughs confirmed [and has more recently admitted
in detail to myself], "Once we reached the farmer's house we
could see a beacon going around so we went towards it. We
followed it for about 2 miles before we could see it was coming
from a lighthouse".

If I was presently able, which I'm not, to disclose what
Burroughs has explained, there might be some different
perceptions about this proclaimed 'best ever evidence for a UFO
cover up' case.

Shortly, and in substance, that will happen.


Incidentally, note - as few appreciate - Burroughs' statement
continued:

"All three of us hit the ground and whatever it was started
moving back towards the open field and after a min or 2 we got
up and moved into the open field".

This 'minute or two' is critical, as is his confirmation the
'UFO' was then spotted, "down by a farmers house".

That tells us it never 'took off' at all.

And it's not the only evidence which does.

In due course...


Meanwhile, what supposedly could the Ministry of Defence not
'tell the people'?

They _have_ now... and there is not even the slightest - as
in...zero... zilch... nada... nothing whatsoever... suggestion
of a 'UFO cover-up' in respect of the 'best UK UFO cover-up case
ever'.

I thought that was the big deal for 'UFO conspiracy' activists?

Have they perhaps unconditionally been exposed as having no
credible excuse for an utter absence of 'UFO cover up'
verification in such landmark official 'UFO' documentation?

Let's get this in perspective; recent Rendlesham disclosures
would be secondary only to any secret 'Roswell' file being made
public.


So... what's being proclaimed now and does it actually have any
bearing on the farcical 'Rendlesham forest alien landing'
beliefs? Or are devotees so conspicuously grasping at
'Rendlesham forest alien landing Ministry of Defence cover up'
paper straws... whilst unable to cite one iota of associated,
meaningful evidence contained within the British government's
equivalent 'Roswell and MJ-12' open 'X-File'.


Some colleagues and myself note that Rendlesham and 'a new
Ministry of Defence exposure why UFOs are alien spaceships',
will feature at this month's 'UFO Magazine' [UK] conference.

Given that the organisers still declare NASA faked the moon
landings, some might conclude it's a poignant, if not pitiful,
partnership.

It might also have some bearing on why 'ufology' is still
perceived by mainstream science and the media as a boil on the
arse of abject stupidity.


Not that the ridiculously avowed 'cover up' media won't listen
if approached professionally... contrary to allegations
otherwise.

As fundamentally confirmed in 'Voyager Newsletter No. 15',
published over a year ago, in June 2000:

"Recently, I was able to persuade one of the UK's most
prestigious national newspapers that there were some puzzling
aspects and related claims concerning nuclear weapons on base
and they might care to look into these.

They agreed to do so and I understand contacted Col. Halt
directly.

Halt has reportedly stated he 'wants to have his day in court in
England' and I doubt he will ever have a better opportunity.

I would be surprised if anything comes of it and there's little
more I can do in this respect".
[END OF EXTRACT]


That prestigious newspaper was the 'Times'.

Seemingly, Halt never replied.

Perhaps I shouldn't have revealed this... it has to be bad PR
for a... 'debunker'?

Sue, I hope I'm not duly expelled from the skeptical 'inner
circle', especially as I've only just learned the complicated
handshake and there were some misunderstandings with CSICOP
about deep-rooted Scottish Masonic protocol and whether I wanted
to retain my kneecaps.

Hopefully, as I'm sure your good self and others appreciate, any
evidence I highlight can be substantiated - even our seemingly
enigmatic 'UFO connected scream in the forest'!


Best wishes,

James Easton
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 2

              Re: New Developments In Linda Abduction - Gonzlez

From: Luis R. Gonzlez Manso <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 10:44:42 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 13:13:29 -0400
Subject: Re: New Developments In Linda Abduction - Gonzlez


 >From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: New Developments In Linda Abduction
 >Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:11:42 -0600


<snip>

 >Furthermore, the literary comparisons drawn between Nighteyes
 >and the Linda Napolitano case only further exemplify the
 >commonalities between abduction cases. As was recently pointed
 >out to me by a well-known sci-fi author, "just because it's (the
 >book is listed as) fiction, doesn't mean it isn't the truth." If
 >Nighteyes was presented as a fictional piece for publication,
 >perhaps it was done so to garner a greater market. It may have
 >been in toto an "in-truth" experience, or it may have been a
 >compilation of various _other_ abduction stories the author
 >used. Therefore the argument against the validity of the Cortile
 >case is badly weakened.

Sorry to keep insisting but, at least to me (and I _did_ read
Nighteyes) the coincidences between both narratives went beyond
mere commonalities. As I have written here twice before without
a convincing reply:

 >I will quote the main point again:

 >The three main points in Linda Cortile�s abduction (a) abductee
 >speaking alien tongue, b) abductee working with the aliens,
 >c) sexual bonding since childhood between pairs of abductees)
 >were written several months before the alleged abduction. This is,
 >at least, a clear evidence of a sociological influence or, in the
 >worst scenario, proof of a hoax.

 >Let me put it more clearly. The most amazing point made
 >in Hopkins� book, the cornerstone of Linda Cortile�s case,
 >was how the aliens had orchestrated the lifes of two
 >abductees in order to reunite them one night in lower
 >Manhattan for an apocalyptic message. The main surprise
 >of Nighteyes� plot (besides the aliens being humans) is
 >when two apparently independent abductees met again,
 >in order to become the founders of a future race. How can
 >anybody miss the paralelism?

Now, as you cannot say that this are mere commonalities, you
fell back into claiming that maybe the author is an "silent
abductee". Well, has anybody bother to ask Garfield
Reeves-Stevens? Even if he denies it, you can always say he is
in denial. You see, I can never win. I can never probe that
Reeves-Stevens had never been abducted.

Maybe he was, but for the moment (and despite the Vatican's
backing) I will keep to a simpler solution.


Sincerely,

Luis R. Gonzlez Manso








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   Sep > Sep 2

                     Re: Ramey's Debris - Gonzlez Manso

From: Luis R. Gonzlez Manso <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 10:49:32 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 13:14:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Gonzlez Manso


 >Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 04:35:18 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris

 >Do you have some reference for this?

If I may quote myself I will suggest you read my article "UMMO:
The planet of the anonymous correspondents. 27 years of close
encounters of the postal kind" in MAGONIA #47 (October 1973)

If that proves difficult, I may have it in electronic format.
Contact directly.

Besides, in FORTEAN TIMES #149 (August 2001) Bob Rickard (with
my help) offers a very short summary of the affair.


Yours,

Luis R. Gonzlez Manso








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   Sep > Sep 2

                Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Jan Pheneger <jan0320@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:40:54 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 13:29:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure -


Date: Friday, August 31 2001 11:21:00
From: Jan Pheneger < jano320@aol.com >
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto < ufoupdates@home.com >
Subject: RE: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

Reading over all the discussion of Lara's fasting, I want to
write here that which needs to be considered for her health's
sake.

No, I am no Physcian. But I know some as friends, from
Gastrointernalist, to Neuropsychiatry.

Lara is going to need the help of both, in my opinion.

Cannot anyone see that lara is crying out for help?

I am not talking here about "publicity", or UfO Disclosure.

I say what I say here, because Lara is writing her own death
sentence if she truly is going to keep up such a "fast".

Not only do I see her as a foolish person, the fact is, she is
only fooling herself with keeping this up. No one to fool, but
sadly only herself.

So, I make this post not based on "foolishness", but attempts
that hopefully Lara will see this post, and _take_it_ to heart
based upon a true story of a young lady that _is_, thank
goodness, still with us.

The young lady did "fast". For fifty-two days. Silently she
wasted from her mere 127 pounds to a mere 85 pounds. She wanted
to be a model.

She was not anorexic - she had a troubled mind, for which help
should have been sought from a Physcian - had anyone known of
this young lady's 'troubled mental state of mind'. She ended up
in hospital with dehydration, severe high blood pressure,
irreversable heart damage and never to bear children. This young
lady is only 17 years old, and a 4.0 student until her own
emotions took her over the edge with "fasting".

A beautiful young lady who could have been so much more, with
psychiatric help in her time of need and physcians to monitor
her weight loss.

I write this to this List, because when you know someone, and I
mean... personally know someone who 'fasts', help is needed from
Physcians, and _not_ anyone less qualified.

I am appalled to see the support for what Lara is doing to
herself. You make me sick thinking that this is a 'just cause'
for any support of disclosure for any reasons.

Lara, if you read this post and truly love yourself - as I am
sure there are family and friends who love you - please realise
that you are writing your own death sentence by keeping this up
without a reputable physician to monitor you.

If you could see for yourself the young lady I write about here,
you would stop right now, just by taking a look at her and what
she had done to herself.

It is heartbreaking.

Please stop for your own sake, as well as for those who love you
- before it is to late.

One way or the other, if you do not stop, you eventually will,
either kill yourself or end up with physicians treating you in
and out of hospital for the harm you are doing to your body and
mind.

I hope you take this as seriously, as the rest of this List does.

I fully agree with you John Valez.


Sincerely,

Jan Pheneger









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   Sep > Sep 2

             Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Evans

From: Roger Evans <shooter@afterimagephoto.tv>
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 10:48:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 13:40:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Evans


 >From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
 >Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 15:53:31 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

 >>Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 10:56:33 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans <shooter@afterimagephoto.tv>
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>>Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 08:31:47 -0500
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

Previously, I wrote:

 >>Mr. Lehmberg,

 >>Let's say that the government gave up and said, "Okay. You win.
 >>Here are all the files on ET life and ET craft".

 >>And it turned out that ET life and ET craft simply didn't exist,
 >>after all....

 >And maybe gravity too is a figment of our imagination? Maybe we
 >were just convinced of it and now believe it and if we did not
 >believe it then we would levitate? ;-)

I certainly can not argue that kind of reasoning. It is no
wonder that you do not see gravity of the situation, and that's
no joke. Also, my post was to Mr. Lehmberg and what _he_ thought
about giving up his family's life only to possibly find out that
ET life _doesn't_ exist. What you do with your own life is your
business, but I still have the opinion that it is senseless to
give your life for something that, by your own admission, is
more than likely doomed to failure. I give the following as an
example.

You wrote:

 >I am sorry to say, but I fail to see how so many millions of
 >people can have similar and different experiences, and we have
 >goverments who are known for their devious attempts at
 >manipulation and control and secrets and lies, and you think
 >that there is 'nothing going on'? ;-)

I never said there was nothing going on. I believe in the
existence of ET life. What I do _not_ believe is that the
government will ever tell the truth about it, regardless of what
you do. And, from what you've written above, you admit that they
lie when they need to. What will make this occasion any
different? I admire your courage, but your tenacity is
misplaced. Think about this and please think about it seriously:

You feel that the information you seek is worth your life to
bring it out into the open. If this is true and the information
exists, then certainly the government would feel the same; that
your life is worth sacrificing to continue keeping it a secret.

_Please_ reconsider your position. I fear for your safety. I
have no doubt the government has killed in the name of the
information you seek. Letting you commit suicide publicly only
makes their job easier and calls attention to all the wrong
things. No disrespect intended, but they don't care about you
and if you die for your cause, the government will simply label
you as a misguided nutball that only proves their point that
_anyone_ that believes in ET life is a misguided nutball. You
won't be viewed as a martyr, you will be viewed as the poster
child for Trekkies gone postal.

I've said all I have to say, and I wish you well. I'm not going
to debate you on this topic as you have more important things to
attend to right now.


Take care,

Roger Evans








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   Sep > Sep 2

                   Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 16:51:31 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 13:45:31 -0400
Subject: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001


Hot Gossip UK September 2001

Welcome to the September 2001 round-up of news, views and gossip
from the world of ufology, the paranormal, the weird and the
wonderful.

The MOD Rendlesham Forest File

As regular readers with an interest in ufology are doubtless
aware by now, Hot Gossip's Editor in Chief Georgina Bruni has
acquired the MOD's official file on the Rendlesham Forest UFO
incident. Georgina broke the story on August 17 on the popular
UFO UpDates List, and the Internet was soon buzzing with the
news. Georgina received numerous e-mails herself, and messages
were posted on various sites and discussion groups. The next day
a website was hastily put up, on which more sceptical opinions
were given an airing. The documents come from a file (or more
accurately, from several different files) that I used during my
tour of duty in Sec(AS)2a, from 1991 to 1994. I'm pleased though
surprised that some Defence Intelligence Staff papers have been
released, because although I worked with the DIS frequently in
the course of my official research and investigation into the
UFO phenomenon, this was a part of my MOD work that I could
never previously have discussed with the media or the public.
Perhaps appropriately, about the most recent paper on the file
is a briefing that I wrote for the Press Office in January 1994.
I was, of course, putting forward the _no defence significance_
party line. Georgina's summary of the file, her analysis of the
papers and her research into what they reveal are written up in
a massive 6000 word article which appears in the current edition
of UFO Magazine (UK), which went on sale on August 30. I'll be
writing my own analysis for the next edition of the magazine.

UFO Conference Sold Out

Talking of UFO Magazine, their Leeds conference has already sold
out for the Saturday, and will probably have sold out for the
Sunday by the time you read this. There may be some Friday night
tickets left, but that's about it. Check out www.ufomag.co.uk
for details. Seeing as the capacity is around 750, that's no
mean feat. Of course, the presence of people like Budd Hopkins,
John Mack and Georgina Bruni may have more than a little to do
with the popularity of the event, but this is a fantastic
achievement for which everyone involved should be congratulated.
The Internet may have given ufology a new dimension, but there's
no substitute for a live event where you can meet researchers
and enthusiasts in person, debate the issues and generally have
a good time.

Hypnosis Debate

The tragic case of Peter Falconio, missing but presumed murdered
in Australia has reopened the debate about the validity of
regression hypnosis. A psychologist from Sydney University
apparently hypnotised Peter's girlfriend, Joanne Lees, in an
attempt to see whether she could recall new evidence about the
mystery stranger who allegedly flagged down their camper van,
prior to attacking the couple. The initiative had the blessing
of Australian police, but Assistant Commissioner John Daulby
said that no new information had been gleaned from the hypnosis.

Asteroid Alert

It is no exaggeration to say that the danger to the Earth posed
by comets and asteroids is probably the biggest threat to the
continued existence of the human race. So it's encouraging that
the Government has invited bids from universities and museums to
run the National Asteroid and Comet Information Centre. But most
of those involved in this subject believe that we need more than
information packs and a website. They argue that what we really
need is observatory time and R & D work on an interdiction
strategy to deflect or destroy any inbound planet killers. If
you'll excuse the pun, watch this space for further
developments. Search on the keyword O`SpaceguardO' for more
information.

Nazis, Flying Saucers and Anti-Gravity

Well that's a title guaranteed to grab people's attention.
Seriously though, if I picked up a book dealing with these sorts
of issues I might be a little sceptical. But if that book was
written by the aviation editor of Jane's Defence Weekly, I might
think again. So with that in mind, look out for the imminent
publication (September 16) of Nick Cook's new book The Hunt for
Zero Point, published by Century. The Skunk Works, Aurora, UFOs
and anti-gravity. It's all there. So if that's your thing, check
it out.

Questing Conference

If alternative history and forbidden archaeology is your thing,
you'll want to be at the questing conference to be held at the
Conway Hall in Red Lion Square, London WC1 on November 3. Check
www.andrewcollins.net for details.

Crop Circles

If crop circles were all made by people, would we expect the
numbers to have fallen off this year as people worried about
spreading Foot and Mouth Disease, or worried that concerns over
this would make farmers more trigger happy and more eager to set
their dogs on any trespassers? Would last year's conviction of
Matthew Williams for criminal damage have an effect? Are we
talking aliens, Earth energies, magnetic fields, wind vortices,
or a few people with ropes, planks of wood, a few pints of cider
and the desire to create some conceptual art? I really don't
know. But check out all the usual websites for the images of
this summer's best formations. The latest Julia Set formation
with over 400 separate circles is a beauty. It covers more than
500,000 square feet and is around 900 feet in diameter (the
length is equivalent to four jumbo jets).

Flying Saucer Review

For those of you interested in UFO reports from all around the
world, check out Flying Saucer Review. Old subscribers and new
will wish to know that they have a new website, so check
www.fsreview.net for details of this long running and intriguing
publication.

Ed's Note:

Nick Pope's four books, Open Skies, Closed Minds, The Uninvited,
Operation Thunder Child and Operation Lightning Strike are
available from all good bookshops and from the usual Internet
book sites. His UK publishers are Simon & Schuster. In America,
The Overlook Press










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   Sep > Sep 2

              Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 11:38:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 13:50:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Clark


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 1 Sep 2001 18:00:52 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze
 >>Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:14:09 -0500

 >>>From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze
 >>>Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:50:34 -0400


Grant,

 >It also bears mentioning that according to
 >>Reagan's best biographer, veteran political journalist and
 >>longtime Reagan observer Lou Cannon, the former President's
 >>occasional woolly statements about earth-uniting hostile aliens
 >>were almost certainly took their inspiration from
 >>science-fiction movies he'd seen in his youth. (If memory
 >>serves, Cannon even cited several likely candidates.)

 >Did Cannon state that he had gotten this from Reagan or was he
 >just guessing?

Cannon, a critical but not unsympathetic biographer, was
discussing a consistent pattern in Reagan's life, showing how
movie plots played a role in his thinking about a variety of
national and international matters, including those with which
he dealt as President. On occasion his memory would turn movie
scenes into what he represented, and no doubt sincerely thought
of, as real-life events.

 >>Movies
 >>were a huge influence on Reagan, and on occasion (as 60 Minutes
 >>once documented in a memorable segment) he had trouble
 >>distinguishing between a movie plot and an event that actually
 >>happened.

 >This means nothing. I checked the Reagan movie theory and based
 >on my research the Reagan Library can actually produce an entire
 >list of movies he viewed while President to anyone who E-mails
 >them. The movie "ET." was not on the original list, so what does
 >this prove. Nothing.

I am at a loss to understand the point you're attempting to make
here. Cannon wasn't talking necessarily about the movies that
Reagan viewed _as President_, and neither was I. Reagan,
remember, was not only a product of the film industry but a
lifelong, devoted movie fan, and he was not a young man when he
entered the White House..

I also don't understand why you've mentioned the Spielberg film
here.

 >Jimmy Carter holds the record for movies, almost twice what
 >Reagan viewed. What does this prove. Again nothing.

You can say that again. Unless you can demonstrate that Carter's
thinking was influenced by movies as Reagan's was, it's probably a
good idea to drop Carter's name from future discussion.

 >>Without much better evidence than exists now - actually, none at
 >>all exists now - it is foolish, and frankly ignorant, to read
 >>Reagan's remarks as hinting at knowledge of non-cinematic ET
 >>visitation.

 >It is ignorant to assume it means ET visitation, and ignorant to
 >believe it does not mean ET visitation.

My point, hardly - I should think - a controversial one, remains:

Given who he was, given the grip popular films had on his
imagination over a lifetime, Reagan's occasional references to
allegedly earth-uniting alien invaders are hardly evidence that he
possessed secret knowledge of ET visitation. That case will have
to be made with other evidence, which so far has not been
demonstrated to exist. It does not follow, of course, that therefore
no such evidence exists anywhere. It just means that if it's there,
we've yet to see it. In the meantime, the more dubious evidence
we're shown (such as the references at issue), the more naturally
skeptical any informed observer becomes.


Jerry Clark








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   Sep > Sep 2

                    Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 10:34:22 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 14:14:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert - Hatch


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 21:39:03 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 18:45:13 -0400
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Cellular & Infrared Alert
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>CELLULAR ALERT:

 >>I would like to collect sightings in which there are reports of
 >>cellular structure. I have recently been informed by Don
 >>Burleson that he has analyzed the Lubbock Light photos of Hart
 >>and has found a rather startling hexagonal cell structure.

 >Bruce:

 >I saw a very large enlargement of what was purported to be part
 >of a Lubbock Lights picture. The "cellular" appearance seemed to
 >me to possibly be the printer's dot pattern of an image which
 >had been printed.

 >Another possibility was that it might have been the grain of a
 >highly enlarged image.

 >If details were available about the source of the image used in
 >the analysis, it might be possible to figure out more.



Hello Bob, Bruce and others.

I am _way_ out of my field as I offer the following.

Any number of times, whilst looking thru a microscope, a
telescope, or my own reading glasses retrieved from an open beer
barrel, I have noticed a "cellular" appearance to what was
actually just some spots of light.

My only concern here is that some unnecessary fuss might be made
out of lens effects and the like. For that, of course, I must
defer to the experts, no matter how hard it is to spell their
last names.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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   Sep > Sep 3

             Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Cameron

From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
Date: 2 Sep 2001 11:17:22 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 11:21:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze - Cameron


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze
 >Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 11:38:23 -0500

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: 1 Sep 2001 18:00:52 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze
 >>>Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:14:09 -0500

 >>>>From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone & Eduard Shevardnadze
 >>>>Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:50:34 -0400

 >Grant,

 >>It also bears mentioning that according to
 >>>Reagan's best biographer, veteran political journalist and
 >>>longtime Reagan observer Lou Cannon, the former President's
 >>>occasional woolly statements about earth-uniting hostile aliens
 >>>were almost certainly took their inspiration from
 >>>science-fiction movies he'd seen in his youth. (If memory
 >>>serves, Cannon even cited several likely candidates.)

 >>Did Cannon state that he had gotten this from Reagan or was he
 >>just guessing?

 >Cannon, a critical but not unsympathetic biographer, was
 >discussing a consistent pattern in Reagan's life, showing how
 >movie plots played a role in his thinking about a variety of
 >national and international matters, including those with which
 >he dealt as President. On occasion his memory would turn movie
 >scenes into what he represented, and no doubt sincerely thought
 >of, as real-life events.

 >>>Movies
 >>>were a huge influence on Reagan, and on occasion (as 60 Minutes
 >>>once documented in a memorable segment) he had trouble
 >>>distinguishing between a movie plot and an event that actually
 >>>happened.

 >>This means nothing. I checked the Reagan movie theory and based
 >>on my research the Reagan Library can actually produce an entire
 >>list of movies he viewed while President to anyone who E-mails
 >>them. The movie "ET." was not on the original list, so what does
 >>this prove. Nothing.

 >I am at a loss to understand the point you're attempting to make
 >here. Cannon wasn't talking necessarily about the movies that
 >Reagan viewed _as President_, and neither was I. Reagan,
 >remember, was not only a product of the film industry but a
 >lifelong, devoted movie fan, and he was not a young man when he
 >entered the White House..

 >I also don't understand why you've mentioned the Spielberg film
 >here.

 >>Jimmy Carter holds the record for movies, almost twice what
 >>Reagan viewed. What does this prove. Again nothing.

 >You can say that again. Unless you can demonstrate that Carter's
 >thinking was influenced by movies as Reagan's was, it's probably a
 >good idea to drop Carter's name from future discussion.

 >>>Without much better evidence than exists now - actually, none at
 >>>all exists now - it is foolish, and frankly ignorant, to read
 >>>Reagan's remarks as hinting at knowledge of non-cinematic ET
 >>>visitation.

 >>It is ignorant to assume it means ET visitation, and ignorant to
 >>believe it does not mean ET visitation.

 >My point, hardly - I should think - a controversial one, remains:
 >
 >Given who he was, given the grip popular films had on his
 >imagination over a lifetime, Reagan's occasional references to
 >allegedly earth-uniting alien invaders are hardly evidence that he
 >possessed secret knowledge of ET visitation. That case will have
 >to be made with other evidence, which so far has not been
 >demonstrated to exist. It does not follow, of course, that therefore
 >no such evidence exists anywhere. It just means that if it's there,
 >we've yet to see it. In the meantime, the more dubious evidence
 >we're shown (such as the references at issue), the more naturally
 >skeptical any informed observer becomes.

Where did I say Reagan's "alien invasion" references meant that
he had "secret knowledge of ET visitation?"

As mentioned previously Clinton used the alien invasion
reference more than Reagan did, and it is generally believed he
out of the loop on the subject. Clinton even said that if the
aliens did invade, the U.S. would unite and defeat the aliens.
Sometimes you have to take what they say with a grain of salt.

The point both made is that the world would unite and regional
and racial differences would not be as significant. This is
true.


Grant

"Are you ready for the revolution?"
Lara Johnstone, a California woman who began a Hunger Strike for
Disclosure on July 28th.










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   Sep > Sep 3

                         Re: Ramey's Debris - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 14:30:22 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 11:24:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris - Sparks


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 13:44:42 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:15:37 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Ramey's Debris
 >>>Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 20:29:01 -0400

 >><snip>

 >>>Since the pictures are of the Roswell debris, it is assumed that
 >>>the message in Ramey's hand is about Roswell. I am unconvinced
 >>>by what people are trying to read on the paper. It could be
 >>>anything, including after action comments about General Van's
 >>>visit to 8th AF area a few days before.

 >>>Of course, for the last 50 years everything breathe any Air
 >>>Force office takes involves UFOs, so all the other paperwork is
 >>>turned out by gnomes in the Pentagon to cover up what is really
 >>>going on.

 >>>Ramey like any general officer had 50 items on his calendar
 >>>everyday.

 >>What on earth are you talking about? This is just plain silly
 >>talk and well below your normal very high standards! Are you
 >>overworked or something?

 >>It is an indisputable _fact_ that the easiest words to read on
 >>the entire Ramey Message are "FORT WORTH, TEX." on Line 3 and
 >>"WEATHER BALLOONS" on Line 7. I read them 16 years ago when I
 >>borrowed a high res enlargement that Bill Moore had obtained.
 >>This tells me, by the way, that they already knew about the
 >>Project MOGUL balloon arrays consisting of multiple weather
 >>balloons since the reference is to plural "WEATHER BALLOONS."
 >>The rest of the text as I read it makes this very clear, i.e.,
 >>that the weather balloons had been found near Roswell.

 >"WEATHER BALLOONS" is certainly there, and by itself tells us
 >this is about Roswell. How often would Ramey deal with "weather
 >balloons" in any capacity and be sending telegrams about them?


Hi Dave,

Exactly. I agree with you 100% here. And before some smartaleck
jumps in here and says it's not proven that Ramey sent the
message, all I need point out is that Ramey and his staff do not
need to be told that his headquarters are in "FORT WORTH, TEX."
so no _incoming_ message from somewhere else is going to tell
_him_ that, it would almost be insulting! However, he would
certainly identify his own location out of courtesy and to avoid
confusion in any outgoing message that he sent over a great
distance, i.e., to Washington, which had to deal with a
worldwide network of military bases. (If he had sent it to one
of the units under his command such as the 509th at Roswell he
would not need to tell them he was in Ft. Worth.)

 >I disagree, however, with your interpretation of what "weather
 >balloons" is telling us here. Just because Ramey uses the plural
 >"balloons" does _not_ mean this has to do with Mogul. Instead, I
 >read the last 3 lines of the message as having to do with what
 >the public was being told and how they were covering it up.
 >"Weather balloons" is in the phrase "NEXT SENT OUT PR [press
 >release] IS OF WEATHER BALLOONS..." "Weather balloons" was being
 >used generically here. The next line was about adding RAWIN
 >demonstration crews to firm up the weather balloon explanation.

I largely agree but also partially disagree with you here Dave.
Despite the fact my reading of the text completely diverges from
yours here except for the words "WEATHER BALLOONS" my reading
nevertheless, amazingly, agrees with you that there is some kind
of deliberately manipulated PR campaign being described that
involves the "WEATHER BALLOONS" that were found and that they
(Ramey and his recipient(s)) knew full well about the Mogul
multiple-weather-balloon arrays, and that something else had
been found besides the Mogul array, and that it was anomalous.

Please keep in mind that as the first Roswell skeptic, who
argued at great length with Stan Friedman and Bill Moore over
the case long before it went fully public (as well as with
others), this clashes with everything I have believed or
understood about the case. I have spent a long time trying to
fit my reading of the Ramey Message into a Mogul explanation
scheme -- especially the reading that I think refers to a Mogul
array actually being found -- but it just won't work. It's the
simple two-, three- and four-letter words that kill any
simplistic effort to explain it away as Mogul. And now my
ongoing review of Karl Pflock's book has shattered my skeptical
understanding of the case.

 >What was happening here is that they were gearing up for a
 >national weather balloon debunking campaign that was to begin
 >the next day, using weather balloon demonstrations to debunk the
 >saucers. See, e.g., the following telegram from the night of
 >July 8 on the Project 1947 web page:

 >www.project1947.com/roswell/wkzo.htm

 >(Thanks to Jan Aldrich for putting this interesting document up
 >on his Web site.)

Yes thanks to you both, Jan and Dave, because I have looked
everywhere for tha t memo and could not find it -- I've had to
rely on memory and my memory turned out too pro-Mogul.

This is a private telegram to the Intelligence Division of the
War Dept (it was not called G-2 then) from Tony Gaston, News
Editor of WKZO radio station in Kalamazoo, Michigan, sent at
10:15 PM (EST) on the night of July 8, 1947, or just a few hours
after Gen. Ramey's press conference in Ft. Worth and Ramey's
radio broadcast on KBAP. It was received a few minutes later at
10:21 PM EST as shown by the date-time stamp of 1947 JULY 09
0321Z, thus proving that Daylight Savings Time was not in wide
use back then (Congress had to pass the Uniform Time Act in 1966
to enforce uniform observance of DST). Apparently Gaston was
following up on that news.

 >Here, the newsman is being told by military intelligence in
 >Washington that they thought radar targets explained all the
 >recent flying saucer sightings. That was the official drumbeat
 >for the next few days.

Tony Gaston of WKZO in Michigan apparently was given Col
Marcellus Duffy's name as a lead to track down to find out what
might be causing the saucer sightings. Who gave it to him or how
is not known but it certainly belies the notion that Project
Mogul was so utterly secret and compartmented that absolutely
nothing could be learned about it even peripherally, since here
was the supposed former Project Officer for TOP SECRET Mogul
giving a press interview. Apparently the info that Duffy was
replaced by Trakowski and transferred to Wright Field soon after
he started on Mogul in Nov 1946 is wrong (Pflock pp. 146-7)
since here was Col Duffy still in New Jersey in July 1947 and
being referenced as apparently the currently knowledgeable
official on what we now know was Mogul.

I bet local news clips from Michigan might tell us more about
what Gaston found out and reported on.

 >Also note that newsman was told to contact Col. M Duffy in New
 >Jersey for more information on the radar targets. This is Col.
 >Marcellus Duffy, who helped develop the RAWIN targets at nearby
 >Fort Monmouth and was the first Project Officer for Mogul.

 >This is also the same Col. Duffy who supposedly was at Wright
 >Field that night examining the debris flown in from Fort Worth
 >after Ramey had allegedly cancelled the flight. Duffy further
 >allegedly definitively IDed the material as coming from Project
 >Mogul, according to Air Force debunkers (this was one of the
 >cornerstones of their Mogul explanation). But how could Duffy be
 >doing this if he was actually in New Jersey near Mogul
 >headquarters?

Apparently Duffy's memory of what state he was in was terribly
faulty and makes his account highly unreliable and questionable
in the same way that CIC/OSI agent Lewis Rickett's testimony is
dismissed when it is pro-UFO but accepted when it helps build
the anti-UFO case or doesn't harm it (Pflock pp. 111 [accepted],
112 [rejected], 113 [accepted], 114-6, 153-4 [rejected]). No one
has ever described a flight taking Roswell debris to _New
Jersey_ of all places.

Whereas the FBI teletype I discovered back in 1979 was well
known and has been available for many years, and it explicitly
states there was a flight to Wright Field. Either Duffy held the
Roswell debris in his hands in Dayton or he didn't. There is no
in-between here. The July 8, 1947, telegram to Army Intelligence
proves that Duffy was not in Dayton, Ohio, but in New Jersey.

My suggestion is that Duffy never got awakened in the middle of
the night to be shown the Roswell debris and to then identify it
as weather balloon equipment (Pflock p. 151). Duffy was in New
Jersey and evidently never shown the material at all. I think
Duffy had been on the phone all afternoon to answer questions
from the AAF brass about Mogul, and was able to collect enough
data to figure out that the AAF was settling on the Mogul
explanation in the guise of "weather device," so that when a
reporter, Tony Gaston from Michigan, managed to track him down
in New Jersey, Duffy was ready. Or maybe Duffy got direct orders
(but more likely no one expected reporters would find him so no
one thought he had to be given any orders about what to say).
Duffy must have sufficiently concealed this high-level
discussion that it seemed to Gaston that no one in the military
was doing anything about it. Gaston then decided this
information from Duffy was so important that it needed to be
brought to the attention of Army Intelligence in Washington
immediately by telegram, at 10:15 at night.

Thanks again Dave for bringing this up. I had cited this
imperfectly in the private email debates these past several days
and now I have it clearly.

 >In DebunkerLand, witnesses for the prosecution are allowed to be
 >in two places at once. CIC officer Sheridan Cavitt played this
 >game as well. According to the Air Force Roswell Report, he was
 >simultaneously back East in training and at Roswell picking up
 >body parts from a B29 crash in May, 1947. Cavitt also
 >independently placed himself out on the debris field picking up
 >a weather balloon, whereas for years he denied being involved or
 >even stationed at Roswell at the time.

You are right about the double standard. However the dating of
Cavitt's assignment to Roswell was remembered wrong by him and
had to be corrected by Cavitt's wife, who remembered personal
life details that were dateable, according to Karl (I can't seem
to find this in his book and it might be in an email from him).

 >>Most researchers agree that it is "ROSWELL" or "ROSWELL, NMEX."
 >>on Line 5. And I agree that it is signed "RRAMEY" on Line 9.

 >Agreed, though I think it just says "ROSWELL." and "RAMEY."
 >(Incidentally, I was the first to propose these
 >interpretations.)

Thanks for the clarification. Previously all I knew was that
both you and Tom Carey had proposed similar readings on these
portions of the text in March 2000 and I had no way of knowing
who was first, I had no exact dates. I agree more with Tom's
variants but the key thing is that these are extremely crucial
readings, not trivial, and you should definitely get the credit
for them if you were first. Especially since to do so you were
having to run up against the party-line errors of the previous
interpreters and had to have the boldness to see clearly the
correct readings.

"RAMEY" looks like a 6 letter word because
 >there is handwriting underneath slanting upward and crossing the
 >end of the signature line. That, I believe, is the source of the
 >confusion. The second letter is definitely an "A" and we are not
 >dealing with a mystery man named "TEMPLE".

I don't see this handwriting.

 >>That pretty much covers most of the visible message and it is
 >>flatout undeniable that it _all_ relates to the Roswell
 >>incident.

 >You left out on the big word "DISC" (in quotes) on line 4, which
 >is undeniably there. (Part of the phrase "IN THE "DISC")

You're right. I had thought of it but wondered if it could
dismissed on the grounds that it could be argued by someone that
it might merely refer to the flying disc reports generally in
the news (which is _not_ my reading whatsoever). But you're
right because it does absolutely prove that this Line 4 cannot
possibly be some unrelated matter about base barbecues or
whatever but clearly has to do with the Roswell subject matter.
So I should have included it.

So, it is indisputable that Line 3 has "FORT WORTH, TEX."

Line 4 has "THE 'DISC' ".
Line 5 has "ROSWELL" or "ROSWELL, NMEX."
Line 7 has "WEATHER BALLOONS."
Line 9 has "RAMEY" or "RRAMEY."

There simply cannot possibly be any reasonable question that
this entire message _all_ has to do with the Roswell incident.
Enough of the first lines can be read to be sure that it too
refers to the same subject matter and isn't switching from base
cookouts and aircraft maintenance schedules or what-have-you to
suddenly discussing the Roswell incident. After the standard
military electronic addressing that always appears at the very
top there just isn't enough room on this short message to
discuss anything else but the subject of what is clearly the
bulk of the message -- Roswell.

 >There
 >is also, of course, "VICTIMS" on line 2 (which just about
 >everybody sees as there, except you Brad, as I understand it).

Intellectual phase-lock. Need to break out of it.

 >>With the rest of the text filled in as I have been
 >>able to do, including text hidden under Ramey's thumb, it is of
 >>course blatantly obvious it all relates to the Roswell case.

 >I'm sure there will be battles royal over the exact
 >interpretation, but this message is flat out, undeniably about
 >the Roswell Incident. I remember having this argument with Kevin
 >Randle last year, who was also arguing that there was no
 >evidence that this message had anything to do with Roswell. Just
 >a few, clearly visible key words like "DISC" and WEATHER
 >BALLOONS (not to mention the timing of Ramey holding the message
 >while he is trying to sell a weather balloon story) says
 >otherwise.

 >David Rudiak

We are in large agreement, the message is as you put it "flat
out, undeniably about the Roswell incident." However, I do not
need any "battles royale" over the message readings as I already
have plenty of battles fighting behind the scenes with other
Roswell skeptics who apparently are infuriated that I am
betraying the cause due to finding new startling evidence which
I cannot deny and I refuse to twist and distort to fit an
anti-Roswell agenda. I will be posting more about this soon now
that UpDates is back online. I am still hopeful that some kind
of conventional explanation for Roswell will emerge but it looks
dim, especially after reading Karl's book.

One main stumbling block to a pro-UFO interpretation of Roswell
is that "the" debris looks like a bunch of trash from someone's
garage, not engine parts from an extraterrestrial spacecraft,
and in fact "resembles" Mogul balloon array debris according to
1947 contemporaneous documentation (8th AF's Major Kirton's
statement in the FBI teletype). But I have strenuously argued in
private along the same lines you have, Dave, as well as Neil
Morris (whom I disagree with on almost everything else) that
there was something unusual about the material, and that the
fact reported to the FBI and Reuters that it only "resembles"
and cannot seem to be simply and squarely identified by anyone
at the 8th AF and dismissed as weather balloon-cable-radar
reflector is troubling.

However there also appear to be two sites or one very large site
with spilled debris maybe only seemingly "connecting" them and I
would argue as a working hypothesis the Pflock 1994 thesis of
Mogul + Anomaly, but keeping in mind (a) the anomalous aspects
of the seemingly "Mogul" debris itself as well as (b) the strong
possibility that aerial recon simply turned up one of the Mogul
balloon arrays somewhere on July 8, 1947, and they sent it on
too. Logically, if there was aerial recon -- and there was a
whole base, the 509th at Roswell, with nothing else better to do
-- the shiny foil-paper radar reflectors from one of the lost
Mogul flights would have attracted attention from some distance.
We're only talking about 15-20 minutes' flying time from Roswell
to the general area of Foster Ranch.

For an example of the dilemmas I am in, I just recently
discovered 14 points of evidence mostly from Karl's book to
support the fact that the world's leading meteoriticist Dr.
Lincoln LaPaz did in fact investigate Roswell with two CIC
agents in the summer of 1947 and did find something very
unusual, which he never found in 1949 in conjunction with the
Green Fireballs. In the course of trying to reconstruct what
LaPaz was likely to have found out I discovered that the
Wilmots' publicized sighting of July 2, 1947 (in the same
headline article announcing the finding of the Roswell "disc")
yields a meteor radiant or possible interplanetary spacecraft
orbit originating on or near the solar system's ecliptic plane,
which is extraordinary (about 21 hrs RA, -30� Dec). Notice one
is given the two extraterrestrial choices -- meteor or
spaceship.


Brad








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   Sep > Sep 3

             Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 01:44:44 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 11:38:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Goldstein


 >Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 08:03:05 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind

 >>From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>Source: The Village Voice

 >>http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0135/segall2.php

 >>Week of August 29 - September 4, 2001

 >>Close Encounter of the Raelian Kind
 >>by Rebecca Segall

 >>Raelianism was founded 30 years ago in France by auto-racing
 >>reporter Claude Vorilhon. Now known as "Rael", he claims that in
 >>1973 he was approached by a four-foot-tall alien who identified
 >>himself as one of the "Elohim" - humanoid, all-powerful
 >>extraterrestrials who had created life on Earth through cloning.
 >>Vorilhon was the chosen son. His single mother had been
 >>artificially inseminated by one of their number, and he was to
 >>prepare earthlings for the Elohim's return.

 ><snip>

 >Didn't some large western religion (the name escapes me,
 >something about holy water and budget forgiveness)... start out
 >with precisely the same silly rap?

 >As I recall, the biblical Hebrews called the Almighty "Elohim".
 >Any student of ancient religions should know about that, maybe
 >even a former race-car driver who (also) attended Catholic
 >school.

 >Sons of God were plentiful in ancient times. Every Egyptian
 >Pharoah directly descended from the God(s) without silly regard
 >to biology or genetics.

 >Frankly, this sounds like a classic French con-artist;
 >commercially tapping the un-met religious needs of thousands if
 >not millions; themselves forever awaiting Divine Rapture,
 >self-washing dishes and dry stockings that don't grow holes on
 >the bottom like mine do.


Hi Larry and everyone else,

I just shuffled over to my computer in my Kevlar socks. They
never get holes and are the world's best at deflecting splinters
and bullets. Never take them off - even sleep or sex - and
especially the bathtub. Bullets cane come anytime from anyplace.

I survived the 2001 hemp parade, festival, and playing their
outdoor concert in a spectacular setting here in Berlin,
Germany. I'm laid back with my keyboard in my lap. And no, I am
definitely not fasting. I have the munchies at this moment while
traversing the wormhole. Watermelon calls from heaven.

I m pondering over the gigantic and distorted ego of Claude
Vorilhon. If one ponders the spiritual practices of the Raelians
one must see that it is an ideal con to have alien tantric sex
with an unlimited sea of goddesses and with every follower
praying at your feet and masterbating to you and your alien
ancestors. They seem to be having a lot more fun than the Hare
Krishnas, Clone On!

Yeah, right. Since I spent most of my life in the San Francisco
Bay area of California, I sure got to witness a lot of
charlatans who were "saviours of the simple minded". dangling
spiritual carrots before their noses. But I could never bring
myself to have unlimited loving sex with an endless temple sea
of "Goddesses of Light" if I were living a lie. Damn. But music
has brought me lots of love in my life.

However, if anypne on the List feels like conspiring with me to
jointly launch a cult like the Raelians but beyond, contact me
off-List. Women devotees please do the same. The temple is open
to anyone.

All right! Time to read through all this weekend's posts on
UpDates that I have downloaded but not yet had time to read. I
look forward to it exccept for whatever percentage of time is
spent wasting my reading skills on the utterances of debunkers
with blinders. Ha, got you riled up, didn't I? <g>


Josh Goldstein












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   Sep > Sep 3

                             Lara Johnstone FAQ

From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
Date: 2 Sep 2001 12:35:30 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 11:43:59 -0400
Subject: Lara Johnstone FAQ


Source: http://www.bushufodisclosure.org/menucontact.html


Frequently Asked Questions about Lara Johnstone:

What did I weigh when I started my hungerstrike?

I am 5'10, and I weighed 196 lbs. On day 33 (Aug 29) I weigh 173
lbs.

Lara Johnson or Johnstone?

Both. Johnstone is my Maiden name, Johnson is my married name. I
use both.

What am I consuming?

I am drinking only liquids -- water with added oxygen (Cell
Food), fresh fruit and vegetable juices (mixed, with added
spirulina and protein powder)and herbal teas. I also once or
twice a week, have some wheatgrass juice. I also occassionaly
have soup drained of solids through a tea-strainer.

Have I ever had a UFO Experience?

No.

Do I believe in UFOs?

I have no idea whether UFOs/ETs exist or not. My hungerstrike
-- for me -- is NOT ABOUT UFOs, but about FREEDOM OF SPEECH. It
is about supporting men and women, who have come forward at
great risk to themselves, to their reputations, to their
families, who say they have evidence that massively impacts
millions of lives, and which they wish to share.

My hungerstrike is to support people to be heard, to get their
day infront of Congress. If these were members of the KKK, or
the KGB, or from Osama Bin Laden's friends, or prison guards, or
Chinese sweatshop workers, or human rights workers in Colombia,
or prisoners in California, or disabled, or gays or children
being exploited in wherever! To me it is not about whether what
they have to say is about something I 'believe in' or not, or
whether it suits my 'agenda', or how it affects my 'reputation'.

It is about giving EVERYBODY the right to stand up and talk --
if they wish to -- and have evidence to substantiate what they
are trying to say. Maybe when I hear what these witnesses have
to say, and see the evidence, I may be able to better answer
whether I 'believe' in UFOs or not. And maybe not. Until then,
I have no idea! ;-)

However, from what I have heard of the Disclosure Project
witnesses testimony, in the Disclosure Book, video and on their
website. I have to say that I do NOT think these witnesses are
lying, and I am very disturbed by their testimony, and I think
it is very important that we find out as soon as possible how
much they know. If what they say is true, then we had better pay
attention and pay attention very quickly.

What I do know is that the US and other governments seem to be
going to extraordinary lengths to deny what these witnesses have
to say. It certainly does not seem as if any Goverment
Representatives (with the exception of the brave, honest and
forthright Governor Jesse Ventura) have the courage to demand
that the US Goverment come clean about it's knowledge of UFOs
and extraterrestial visits.

Do I have medical check ups?

Yes, since week three, I have gone in for a weekly check up to
the Berkeley Woman's Health Center, where I get weighed, have a
blood and a urine test, as well as a general check up of
reflexes, eyes, ears and that type of thing. So far -- all is
very healthy.

What do my family have to say about my hungerstrike?

My husband -- Demian -- is supportive, he says that is the woman
he married -- someone who cares about the world passionately and
is willing to do something about it. He doesn't know much about
this 'ufo business' but knows enough about how the US goverment
hides essential information from the people it represents to
believe there has to be something fishy going on. My rents in
South Africa would rather that I just be normal and not make
such a fuss about the world being as it is, and they don't think
that anyone will care about what I am doing. My sisters and
brothers have not commented, I imagine they would prefer not to
have to think about it.

What do I look like?

Here are three pictures of me over the past few years.
(Click link on top to view pix)

What work do I do?

Well I recently gave up my job in order to devote all my time
and resources to the hungerstrike. Before that I worked in an
English pub, as a nanny for over 4 years, as a caregiver to a
quadriplegic college student, as a deckhand, first mate and
captain of various sailing yachts in the Atlantic, Carribean and
Indian Oceans, secretary, office manager and various other
social service related positions. I have also occassionally
written various short articles for internet news magazines and
social justice publications, such as the New Abolitionist, Race
Traitor, Woza Internet News, Radical Honesty Ezine and Free
Spirit (San Francisco's Homeless Newspaper). Most recently I
have been working on setting up the Amandla Braveheart
Collective, a nonprofit intentional community in South Africa
for at risk youth, ex-prisoners and drug addicts, similar to
Delancey Street in San Francisco.

What other issues have I been active in and concerned about?

For the past 8 or 9 years I have worked as a volunteer and
activist in the prisoners rehabilitation, prison reform, social
justice, environmental justice, ecological education, third
world debt relief, anti-globalization, anti-drug war,
anti-police brutality, anti-racism, anti-death penalty,
free-speech, radical honesty, community policing, alternative
currencies, anti-war and new abolitionist movements.

Have I ever been on a hunger strike before?

Yes, once. It was against the California Department of
Corrections, and my request was to Governor Gray Davis. The
details of that hungerstrike can be found at CA Justice. The
California Inspector General's Office finally investigated (for
the third time) and agreed with the complaint I had registered
with their office.

Have I ever been arrested for civil disobedience?

Yes, three times.


- 1) In Cumbria, England with Greenpeace, protesting against
Sellafield, a Nuclear power station as heavily contaminated with
radioactivity as Chernobyl;

- 2) In Oakland, CA at the Federal Building, protesting against
the bombing of Iraq;

- 3) With the Democracy Brigades, in the rotunda of the Capital
in Washington, DC, protesting for Campaign Finance Reform. .


"Are you ready for the revolution?"
Lara Johnstone, a California woman who began a Hunger Strike for
Disclosure on July 28th.







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   Sep > Sep 3

                  Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 16:44:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 11:48:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert - Maccabee


 >Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 10:34:22 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert

<snip>

 >Any number of times, whilst looking thru a microscope, a
 >telescope, or my own reading glasses retrieved from an open beer
 >barrel, I have noticed a "cellular" appearance to what was
 >actually just some spots of light.

 >My only concern here is that some unnecessary fuss might be made
 >out of lens effects and the like. For that, of course, I must
 >defer to the experts, no matter how hard it is to spell their
 >last names.

May I suggest you visit:

http://brumac.8k.com

and look at the cellular image in the Dock Video. This is not an
artifact of looking at a tiny image using a microscope. I have
shown the full video frame and the UFO image takes up a sizeable
part. Definitely the structure imaged therein is characteristic
of the object, whatever it was. The cellular structure
discovered by Burleson is similar. However, I have not looked at
th Hart photos for independent confirmation.









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   Sep > Sep 3

                     Dearborn Analysis & Reports On-Line

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 17:11:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 11:50:36 -0400
Subject: Dearborn Analysis & Reports On-Line


Members,

The Dearborn, Michigan Video Analysis and Report are now
available online. See the respective links near the bottom of
the page at:

http://members.home.net/tlemire/dearborn.html


I'm always open to sincere constructive criticism.


Todd Lemire

Michigan UFO CENTRAL
http://members.home.net/tlemire/UFOCENTRAL.html









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   Sep > Sep 3

                Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 14:59:24 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 11:57:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure -


 >From: Jan Pheneger <jan0320@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:40:54 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

Jan, Hi!

Thanks for your comments...

 >Reading over all the discussion of Lara's fasting, I want to
 >write here that which needs to be considered for her health's
 >sake.

 >No, I am no Physcian. But I know some as friends, from
 >Gastrointernalist, to Neuropsychiatry.

I do have a very very good physician who is monitoring my health
weekly and so far I am healthier than any other person she has
seen in a long time! ;-)

 >Lara is going to need the help of both, in my opinion.

 >Cannot anyone see that lara is crying out for help?

Sorry... I see _you_ crying out for help for _Lara_, but I have
not seen Lara _crying_ for help! I have experienced her as
writing letters requesting help for the problem (not me!), and I
have yet to see a letter of your concern to President Bush?

 >I am not talking here about "publicity", or UfO Disclosure.

I am talking about UFO Disclosure - a much bigger problem than
me! Why don't people put the same effort into getting disclosure
as they do in attempting to convince me to 'save my health'!

 >I say what I say here, because Lara is writing her own death
 >sentence if she truly is going to keep up such a "fast".

Indeed you are totally correct! ;-) And Lara is the captain of
her own ship! ;-) This is but one life of many, I imagine I have
the right to choose what I live and die for like anyone else!?
;-)

Do you put as much effort into discouraging all those who sign
up for the army, navy etc to go and _die_ for killing others? As
you put into attempting to discourage me to die for Truth? ;-)

This does not mean that I do not very much appreciate your
concern. I just feel that your concern is a little misfocused! I
have _repeatedly_ said that when my health does become an
_issue_, I will seriously consider it and have this
conversation, _until_then_, I would appreciate it if anyone
concerned for my health could put their energies to getting
_disclosure_! ;-)

 >Not only do I see her as a foolish person, the fact is, she is
 >only fooling herself with keeping this up. No one to fool, but
 >sadly only herself.

How am I fooling myself? ;-)

 >So, I make this post not based on "foolishness", but attempts
 >that hopefully Lara will see this post, and _take_it_ to heart
 >based upon a true story of a young lady that _is_, thank
 >goodness, still with us.

I've seen your post and I appreciate your response. I will _be_
with you even when my body has departed from this planet! If you
are going to miss my body that much, you can take a photo of it
or stick it up in some plaza, but personally I would prefer it
you appreciate my heart and soul, something that will be around
for many more millenia, just like yours! ;-)

 >The young lady did "fast". For fifty-two days. Silently she
 >wasted from her mere 127 pounds to a mere 85 pounds. She wanted
 >to be a model.

Poor lady! I ain't interested in being a model. For most of my
life I have been very happy with being a big African girl,
strong and healthy! I have never had medical insurance, and I
have not seen a doctor until I started this fast. I have not so
much as had a cold in 14 years! ;-) And htat is with travelling
and backpacking all over the world, and eating the craziest
things in the craziest places. I have not even got diarrhea! ;-)
I am probably healthier than just about anyone on this board,
for now! ;-)

 >She was not anorexic - she had a troubled mind, for which help
 >should have been sought from a Physcian - had anyone known of
 >this young lady's 'troubled mental state of mind'.

She definately did have a troubled mind! ;-) I do not! ;-)

 >She ended up
 >in hospital with dehydration, severe high blood pressure,
 >irreversable heart damage and never to bear children.

Poor girl. I never wanted to bring children into a world of
hate, destruction and total denial for what life, living and
love is all about! ;-) But that was my choice! ;-)

 >This young
 >lady is only 17 years old, and a 4.0 student until her own
 >emotions took her over the edge with "fasting".

This poor lady again was not the problem, but a society so
focussed on making women look thin, so they can be 'loved'! She
is NOT THE PROBLEM, the focus on money, greed, and getting love
for what you look like, as opposed to _who you are_ is the
PROBLEM! ;-)

 >I write this to this List, because when you know someone, and I
 >mean... personally know someone who 'fasts', help is needed from
 >Physcians, and _not_ anyone less qualified.

I have more than physicians! I have common sense. I have a
spiritual advisor. I have a very very strong backbone! Both my
great grandparents survived the first concentration camps last
century in the Boer WAr! ;-) I have some very very strong genes
of survival! I have almost died 5 times! Maybe I should have
been a cat! ;-) And yet God or whomever is in charge wanted me
alive!

Who knows for what, but until I am dead my mission on earth is
for the truth, for love and for peace! Amen! ;-)

 >I am appalled to see the support for what Lara is doing to
 >herself. You make me sick thinking that this is a 'just cause'
 >for any support of disclosure for any reasons.

 >Lara, if you read this post and truly love yourself - as I am
 >sure there are family and friends who love you - please realise
 >that you are writing your own death sentence by keeping this up
 >without a reputable physician to monitor you.

I do have a reputable physician to monitor me! Please verify
information before you make assumptions, and upset yourself with
those assumptions. ;-)

I am not afraid of my own death sentence, but it seems that many
others are! I appreciate that and again - please focus your
attention on the Death Sentence To Our Freedom - Secrecy And
Lies! ;-)

 >If you could see for yourself the young lady I write about here,
 >you would stop right now, just by taking a look at her and what
 >she had done to herself.

I am not her, and she is not me! I imagine the paradigm you view
the world in is one in which you were brought up in! American
western obssessive with having and living as long as you can...

I did not grow up with that viewpoint, and of course you do not
have to appreciate mine. Please do not expect me to 'buy' your
world view point about what I can and cannot give my life for!
;-)

I appreciate that you are upset about it, and I imagine that is
more about your experiences with this young girl than it is
about me! ;-)

I have made up my mind.. either please help me focus on
_disclosure_, or accept my decision.

 >It is heartbreaking.

Heartbreaking? Only if you consider living in chains and being
too afraid to give your life for the truth... but rather sitting
enslaved to the _secrecy_ and _lies_ and considering yourself
okay and happy... ;-)

 >Please stop for your own sake, as well as for those who love you
 >- before it is to late.

Anyone who really loves me will support me in choosing for
myself what cause I wish to die for or not! As my husband
clearly does. Maybe it is because he has realized the freedom of
giving your life for others in truth and love, and is still
around to appreciate the courage it took and how much it takes
to love yourself to be able and willing to make such a gift to
YOURSELF! ;-)

Others who wish me to be _around_ for them think that I am there
for _having_ and not for _being_ who I am! ;-) Just my 2 cents..
;-)

 >One way or the other, if you do not stop, you eventually will,
 >either kill yourself or end up with physicians treating you in
 >and out of hospital for the harm you are doing to your body and
 >mind.

The body currently called _Lara_ may eventually die, the spirit
currently living insider he will not!

As Arnold Shwarznegger  (sp) says:

I'll be back! ;-)

 >I hope you take this as seriously, as the rest of this List does.

Indeed more so! ;-)

 >I fully agree with you John Valez.

As do I! ;-)

Sincerely,

Lara Johnstone


+=============================================+
|   Hungerstrike Requesting President Bush    |
|   honor his agreement to tell the American  |
| people the truth about UFO's, by supporting |
| the Disclosure Project witnesses to testify |
|  about their extensive knowledge of UFO's,  |
| advanced energy and propulsion systems, etc.|
+---------------------------------------------+
|       Bush UFO Disclosure Request:          |
|     http://www.bushufodisclosure.org/       |
|           Disclosure Project:               |
|     http://www.disclosureproject.org/       |
+=============================================+









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   Sep > Sep 3

                                  Gufology

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 21:01:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 12:29:21 -0400
Subject: Gufology


I seldom post things that are not serious... even when they seem
to be off-subject or goofing off, they have a serious side. This
message is a set up for other messages which are coming and is
serious!

Gooflogy or Gufology is the study of goofiness associated with
ufology. For the early days, I must be the foremost expert on
gufology, and believe me there is plenty of goofiness. Since
Project 1947 was formed, it has investigated the beginning of
the UFO era. I have visited institutions in 60 US states,
Canadian provences and the District of Columbia. I have read
thousands of newspaper articles on the 1947 wave.

This wave did not start with Kenneth Arnold. There were other
sighting reports prior to the big blaze in the newspapers.
However, after Arnold's sighting, this became a silly season
phenomenon. You couldn't tell that from the books that have been
written on the subject because most authors strip out or are
completely unaware of what was actually going on.

In the Project 1947 report, I try to give the flavor of this
period.

http://www.fufor.com/fufor-pub-2.htm#1947

The only other author who has done something similar is Loren
Gross in his UFO history series. So while UFO books may make
this era appear sombre and oh so serious, it wasn't. It was
summer madness. All this foolishness has been stripped from the
popular books about the era and especially the Roswell
offerings.

So what was happening. The Arnold story ran across the country
on the 26th of July, and the mostly skeptical press carried it
along with possible explanations. Some wits made comments about
seeing things after too much alcohol. However, as other people
like Richard Rankin and Bryon Savage came forward, some coverage
became more serious. At the same time there was a lot of
foolishness and easily explainable reports and contradictory
official comments. However, on about the 30th of June, the
obituary for the flying discs had been written in many
newspapers. Officialdom said there was nothing to it.

However, Idaho Statesman Aviation Editor Dave Johnson contacted
Lt. Gen. Twining at Wright Field on or before the 2d of July for
comments on the UFOs. Twining told Johnson that Wright Field
would study UFOs and asked people to send him accounts. Twining
told Brig. Gen. Brentnall, in a memo on the 2nd of July, that
Wright Field would initiate an investigation. Twining could do
this on his own without permission, but as news stories indicate
General Vandenberg was aware of the investigation, so it
probably came from the top. Johnson's story on Twining ran in
the newspapers on the 3rd of July and after, but did not get as
much coverage as others stories about this time.

A story on the 2nd of July that discs were seen over Lawton,
Oklahoma which turned out to be advertising leaflets was carried
on the wire services. It shows that some of these stories can be
explained with a little journalistic investigation. However,
this is also a precursor to all the advertising stunts which
would use "flying discs" thrown from airplanes, off tall
buildings and even out of cars. At one Chamber of Commerce
meeting in Minneasota an advertister says that the flying disc
is the greatest advertising gimmick to come along in a long
time.

Over the long 4th of July Independence Day weekend, all hell
broke loose. Stories of flying discs come from all over and two
other trends really got going - humor and pranks. And, of course,
everyone had an opinion on what the flying discs were.

The Smith/Stevens UAL airline sighting got into newspapers
across the country that didn't even carry the Arnold story. In
fact, the first some newspapers even noticed the flying discs
started then.

Among the flood of reports are jokes and hoaxes which increase
as the week goes on.

One of the biggest skywatches ever, starts as people go outside
for hours to watch for the flying discs. From the radios come
continuous talk on the subject, "Hiya, all you Cats and Kittens!
This Jonny Tree, your DJ on WEIC, flying the discs out to you."

There are few TV sets in the country so radio and multi-editions
of newspapers provide the news.

Silliness starts to get the upper-hand.

Huge headlines scream about a P-38 knocking down a disc in
Montana. Next day that is put down as a hoax. The newspapers
that ran with the story are "ragged on" by their competitors.

http://www.project1947.com/roswell/bozeman.htm

Rewards are offered, some tongue in cheek, for a flying disc.
All kinds of contraptions appear on the ground and in the air
after the rewards are announced.

http://www.project1947.com/roswell/ufo47.htm

Newspaper editors become weary of the foolishness. Several
times, the secret of the flying discs are about to be revealed
only to turn out to be some prank. Finally, the first
announcements of Roswell appear. It builds up suspense, which is
quickly squelched the next day. About this time many editors and
the wire services throw in the towel. Stories dry up except for
humor items and some overseas reports. Local newspapers and
regional wire services still carry reports, but after the 15th
of July, it is over except for some news analyses articles on
the 20th and the Murray Island story in early August.

Roswell is not the beginning. It is the end of the wave for the
newswires.


Jan Aldrich

Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331, USA
(860) 546-9135







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                    Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:49:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 13:17:54 -0400
Subject: Re:  Cellular & Infrared Alert - Velez


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 21:39:03 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 18:45:13 -0400
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Cellular & Infrared Alert
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>CELLULAR ALERT:

 >>I would like to collect sightings in which there are reports of
 >>cellular structure. I have recently been informed by Don
 >>Burleson that he has analyzed the Lubbock Light photos of Hart
 >>and has found a rather startling hexagonal cell structure.

 >Bruce:

 >I saw a very large enlargement of what was purported to be part
 >of a Lubbock Lights picture. The "cellular" appearance seemed to
 >me to possibly be the printer's dot pattern of an image which
 >had been printed.

 >Another possibility was that it might have been the grain of a
 >highly enlarged image.

 >If details were available about the source of the image used in
 >the analysis, it might be possible to figure out more.


Hi Bob, hi All,

I am a journeyman printer. Yes, blow-ups of photos will show
some graininess due to the limitations of resolution introduced
by the film's emulsion. But, photographic enlargements will
_not_ show a printers' dot pattern unless it was 'screened'
(processed) for offset printing first.

Printing presses cannot print 'continuous tone' photographs. All
photo material has to have a screen introduced utilizing a photo
repro-process involving exposing the photo's negative with a
Benday screen underneath. (The screen is sandwiched in a vacuum
frame between the negative of the original photo and a blank
piece of film.) Dot density can vary from comic book sized dots
(60 dpi - visible to the naked eye) to the 133 or 155 dpi
screens employed by the industry as a standard and that require
a 8X or 10X loupe to see clearly.

So, if you are looking at an enlargement of a 'photograph' you
will not see -any- print introduced dot/moire patterns. If you
are looking at a 'processed photo' you will find dots (of the
same size) _uniformly_ throughout the entire image. Not just a
portion of it. The acid test is to put a loupe down on the
picture and look for the dot patterns. To see what I'm talking
about, place a photo from any book next to a photograph that you
took yourself and view the them side by side through a good
magnifier.

Hope this little bit of info helps you to know how to tell the
difference (with certainty) whether what you are looking at has
been derived from a printed piece, or an enlarged photo. A
professional photographer can tell us more about how different
film emulsions effect the resolution of an image during the
enlargement process.

Where the Devil is Bob Shell when you need him!  <VBG>


Regards,

John Velez
4 color offset film stripper for 14 years ;)








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                  Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind -

From: Franois Parmantier <parcol@club-internet.fr>
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 17:06:52 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 13:20:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind -


 >Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 08:03:05 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind


 >>From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>


 >>Source: The Village Voice

 >>http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0135/segall2.php

 >>Week of August 29 - September 4, 2001

 >>Close Encounter of the Raelian Kind
 >>by Rebecca Segall

 >>Raelianism was founded 30 years ago in France by auto-racing
 >>reporter Claude Vorilhon. Now known as "Rael", he claims that in
 >>1973 he was approached by a four-foot-tall alien who identified
 >>himself as one of the "Elohim" - humanoid, all-powerful
 >>extraterrestrials who had created life on Earth through cloning.
 >>Vorilhon was the chosen son. His single mother had been
 >>artificially inseminated by one of their number, and he was to
 >>prepare earthlings for the Elohim's return.

 ><snip>

 >Didn't some large western religion (the name escapes me,
 >something about holy water and budget forgiveness)... start out
 >with precisely the same silly rap?

 >As I recall, the biblical Hebrews called the Almighty "Elohim".
 >Any student of ancient religions should know about that, maybe
 >even a former race-car driver who (also) attended Catholic
 >school.

 >Sons of God were plentiful in ancient times. Every Egyptian
 >Pharoah directly descended from the God(s) without silly regard
 >to biology or genetics.

 >Frankly, this sounds like a classic French con-artist;
 >commercially tapping the un-met religious needs of thousands if
 >not millions; themselves forever awaiting Divine Rapture,
 >self-washing dishes and dry stockings that don't grow holes on
 >the bottom like mine do.


Dear List members,

We, French, feel deeply sorry and apologize for exporting Rael
to North America.

Claude Vorilhon is very well known in France, and not only among
ufologists, as a dangerous person and his group as a very well
organized and profitable company. Please note that he claims to
be the fastest religious leader thanks to his disciples who fund
the raelian racing car team. Unfortunately, the reality is not
so funny and his cloning project is worrying. So there is a need
to spread informations about him

French journalists have carried out investigations into the
Raelian movement and his personnal story. The last one was
broadcast on a French TV, M6, few months ago. In this report,
his best old-friend testified that Rael confessed to him he
never saw any flying saucer and that he created the whole story.


Best regards to all,

Franois Parmantier












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                               New EBE-ET Site

From: Thiago L. Ticchetti <thiagolt@opendf.com.br>
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 12:30:46 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 13:22:37 -0400
Subject: New EBE-ET Site


Hello friends,

I would like to invite you to visit the new website of the
Brazilian Extraterrestrial UFO Research (EBE-ET).

visit: www.ebe-et.com.br

We propose ourselves to be one of the information channels about
UFOs in Brazil.

We hope that you enjoy the new look.


Regards,

Thiago Luiz Ticchetti

Vice-Chair EBE-ET








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                   Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 15:56:13 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 13:25:18 -0400
Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Hall


 >From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released
 >Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 16:31:17 +0100

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released
 >>Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 22:14:43 +0000

 >>Georgina,

 >>Your posts have the ring of truth about them, but I am more than
 >>a little confused about who is or is not credible. I know and
 >>have interacted closely with Chuck Halt, and have debriefed him
 >>very thoroughly. He denied to me some of your statements in your
 >>book about having interviewed him. Want to talk privately?


 >Dick

 >It's interesting that Charles Halt should tell you that. When he
 >received the book, he actually wrote congratulating me on my
 >thorough research. I interviewed him several times for the book,
 >and have had other conversations with him since publication, and
 >he has never once complained. He asked me not to actually quote
 >him on most of his responses, which I complied to. And he shared
 >certain information which he asked me not to publish, and I also
 >complied to this request.

 >I hope this answers some questions, which I am forced to present
 >here on UpDates because you brought it up publicly. I will not
 >discuss publicly (for his sake) the reason why I think he denied
 >I had interviewed him, but would be willing to talk to you
 >privately, as you suggest.


Georgina,

You are absolutely right and I probably should not have brought
this up on UpDates; henceforth off-line only.

I, too, have some ideas about what he said and why based on past
experience.

Dick









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                    Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:44:27 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 17:43:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert - Young


 >Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:49:52 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 21:39:03 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >>Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 18:45:13 -0400
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Cellular & Infrared Alert
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>CELLULAR ALERT:

 >>I would like to collect sightings in which there are reports of
 >>cellular structure. I have recently been informed by Don
 >>Burleson that he has analyzed the Lubbock Light photos of Hart
 >>and has found a rather startling hexagonal cell structure.

 >Bruce:

 >I saw a very large enlargement of what was purported to be part
 >of a Lubbock Lights picture. The "cellular" appearance seemed to
 >me to possibly be the printer's dot pattern of an image which
 >had been printed.

 >Another possibility was that it might have been the grain of a
 >highly enlarged image.

 >If details were available about the source of the image used in
 >the analysis, it might be possible to figure out more.

 >I am a journeyman printer. Yes, blow-ups of photos will show
 >some graininess due to the limitations of resolution introduced
 >by the film's emulsion. But, photographic enlargements will
 >_not_ show a printers' dot pattern unless it was 'screened'
 >(processed) for offset printing first.

<snip>

 >So, if you are looking at an enlargement of a 'photograph' you
 >will not see -any- print introduced dot/moire patterns. If you
 >are looking at a 'processed photo' you will find dots (of the
 >same size) _uniformly_ throughout the entire image. Not just a
 >portion of it.

John, List:

Thanks for this detailed explanation. It's the reason I wondered
about the source of the picture that was used for the analysis:
was it from a published source or a photographic print?

Clear skies,

Bob Young









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                       Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:44:28 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 17:45:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Young


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 2 Sep 2001 12:35:30 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Lara Johnstone FAQ

 >Source: http://www.bushufodisclosure.org/menucontact.html

 >Frequently Asked Questions about Lara Johnstone:

<snip>

 >Have I ever had a UFO Experience?

 >No.

 >Do I believe in UFOs?

 >I have no idea whether UFOs/ETs exist or not. My hungerstrike
 >-- for me -- is NOT ABOUT UFOs, but about FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

<snip>

 >What other issues have I been active in and concerned about?

 >For the past 8 or 9 years I have worked as a volunteer and
 >activist in the prisoners rehabilitation, prison reform, social
 >justice, environmental justice, ecological education, third
 >world debt relief, anti-globalization, anti-drug war,
 >anti-police brutality, anti-racism, anti-death penalty,
 >free-speech, radical honesty, community policing, alternative
 >currencies, anti-war and new abolitionist movements.

Mr. Cameron, UFO UpDates List Members, my dear friends:

Grant, you have finally managed to do a fine public service,
here, with your FAQ about Lara Johnstone.

This isn't about UFOs, but about far Left and Internationalist
Anarchist politics (the latter an oxymoron if ever there was
one). Ms. Johnstone and her associates have undoubtedly read
somewhere that UFO related websites are one of the most popular
categories of the world-wide web, after porn.

They are acting accordingly and will monopolize as much UFO
related bandwidth as they can, with the help of their
noviciates, such as Grant Cameron. The message is anti-west,
anti-US, anti-democracy, anti-anything in order to inflate their
egos to the enormous sizes needed to give meaning to their
current miserable lives.

I have decided that I will just push the delete button and not
waste my time. I am sure that many of my good friends on this
list have just now levitated themselves a few inches above their
chairs and are right now pounding the keyboards and smashing the
mice with glee.

I'm sorry to have to disapoint you, ladies and germs, but it'll
save time which can be put to better use debunking a few more
flying saucer stories. Regretfully, my good friends, many of you
will to on wasting valuable time and energy as you allow
yourselves to be manipulated by these ingrates.


Clear skies,

Bob Young

--------
MIB, MJ-12 informer, astronomy enthusiast









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             Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:44:30 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 17:48:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Young


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 31 Aug 2001 14:32:33 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>From: David Wachenschwanz <ploot@atomiccafe.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure
 >>Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:15:04 -0500

<snip>

 >There is an analogy described by often by Daniel Sheehan. It is
 >of 1,000 or more Jewish concentration camp prisioners being
 >guarded by 2, 3, or 4 German guards with guns. The prisioners
 >just sat and waited to be led to the slaughter.

What the hell are you and Sheehan talking about? Are you nuts?

 >if we all combine our strengths and talents we can overrun the
 >evil holding us captive. She recognizes the fact that some people
 >might have to die to free everyone else.

You are, aren't you?  You are bloomin', stark-raving looney.

Bob Young

-------------

Anything you suspect will turn out to be true if you pursue it
long enough. Paranoia is just another word for Ignorance.

- - - Hunter S. Thompson









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                       Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:54:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 17:51:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Young


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 2 Sep 2001 12:35:30 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Lara Johnstone FAQ

 >Source: http://www.bushufodisclosure.org/menucontact.html

 >Frequently Asked Questions about Lara Johnstone:

<snip>

Oh, I forgot the rest:

 >Have I ever been arrested for civil disobedience?

 >Yes, three times.

 >- 1) In Cumbria, England with Greenpeace, protesting against
 >Sellafield, a Nuclear power station as heavily contaminated with
 >radioactivity as Chernobyl;

This, ladies & gentlemen, should give you a good indication of
the accuracy and credibility of Johnstone and company.


Clear skies,

Bob Young






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                      Re: Lexington UFO Video - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 16:09:03 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 17:53:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Lexington UFO Video - Ledger


 >Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 20:55:19 -0400
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images

 >>Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 17:49:07 -0300
 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Lexington UFO Video - Still Images

 >>Hi Kenny,

 >>Have you checked the winds for that day and location?

 >>Don Ledger

 >No, from my watching the video it seems fairly obvious that this
 >is just a novelty balloon of some sort, there is nothing about
 >it (that I can see) to indicate anything at all otherwise that
 >would warrant any further investigative concern.


Hi Kenny,

Thanks,

Don Ledger








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                  Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 15:49:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 18:45:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind -


 >Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 01:44:44 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind


 >>Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 08:03:05 -0700
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind

 >>>From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>Source: The Village Voice

 >>>http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0135/segall2.php

 >>>Week of August 29 - September 4, 2001

 >>>Close Encounter of the Raelian Kind
 >>>by Rebecca Segall

 >>>Raelianism was founded 30 years ago in France by auto-racing
 >>>reporter Claude Vorilhon. Now known as "Rael", he claims that in
 >>>1973 he was approached by a four-foot-tall alien who identified
 >>>himself as one of the "Elohim" - humanoid, all-powerful
 >>>extraterrestrials who had created life on Earth through cloning.
 >>>Vorilhon was the chosen son. His single mother had been
 >>>artificially inseminated by one of their number, and he was to
 >>>prepare earthlings for the Elohim's return.

 >><snip>

 >>Didn't some large western religion (the name escapes me,
 >>something about holy water and budget forgiveness)... start out
 >>with precisely the same silly rap?

 >>As I recall, the biblical Hebrews called the Almighty "Elohim".
 >>Any student of ancient religions should know about that, maybe
 >>even a former race-car driver who (also) attended Catholic
 >>school.

 >>Sons of God were plentiful in ancient times. Every Egyptian
 >>Pharoah directly descended from the God(s) without silly regard
 >>to biology or genetics.

 >>Frankly, this sounds like a classic French con-artist;
 >>commercially tapping the un-met religious needs of thousands if
 >>not millions; themselves forever awaiting Divine Rapture,
 >>self-washing dishes and dry stockings that don't grow holes on
 >>the bottom like mine do.


 >Hi Larry and everyone else,

 >I just shuffled over to my computer in my Kevlar socks. They
 >never get holes and are the world's best at deflecting splinters
 >and bullets. Never take them off - even sleep or sex - and
 >especially the bathtub. Bullets cane come anytime from anyplace.

 >I survived the 2001 hemp parade, festival, and playing their
 >outdoor concert in a spectacular setting here in Berlin,
 >Germany. I'm laid back with my keyboard in my lap. And no, I am
 >definitely not fasting. I have the munchies at this moment while
 >traversing the wormhole. Watermelon calls from heaven.

 >I m pondering over the gigantic and distorted ego of Claude
 >Vorilhon. If one ponders the spiritual practices of the Raelians
 >one must see that it is an ideal con to have alien tantric sex
 >with an unlimited sea of goddesses and with every follower
 >praying at your feet and masterbating to you and your alien
 >ancestors. They seem to be having a lot more fun than the Hare
 >Krishnas, Clone On!

 >Yeah, right. Since I spent most of my life in the San Francisco
 >Bay area of California, I sure got to witness a lot of
 >charlatans who were "saviours of the simple minded". dangling
 >spiritual carrots before their noses. But I could never bring
 >myself to have unlimited loving sex with an endless temple sea
 >of "Goddesses of Light" if I were living a lie. Damn. But music
 >has brought me lots of love in my life.

 >However, if anypne on the List feels like conspiring with me to
 >jointly launch a cult like the Raelians but beyond, contact me
 >off-List. Women devotees please do the same. The temple is open
 >to anyone.

 >All right! Time to read through all this weekend's posts on
 >UpDates that I have downloaded but not yet had time to read. I
 >look forward to it exccept for whatever percentage of time is
 >spent wasting my reading skills on the utterances of debunkers
 >with blinders. Ha, got you riled up, didn't I? <g>


Dear Joshua, List and Errol,

Say, are you the Joshua what fit that battle in Jericho, Long
Island? I heard of you. And I wish I were in Germany right now,
but not Berlin, rather Bavaria. The people there are friendly to
a fault, happy and make the most 'wonderful' roast pork I ever
et in my life (Sorry Lara).

And the beer. Oh my Got in Himmel. I remember traveling from
Neuremberg to Meunchen (during the Christmas season when at
Neuremberg, there is a street festival featuring Glu Vine).

Anyway, there we were, dopy-headed from Glu vine, but sampling
the Pils from there to Munich, topped off by the most vile
strawberry schnopps I've ever had. I slept well that night.

But I digress......

I am responding to your offer to launch a Raelian Religion. I
have the formula for the best religion what ever was in the his
story of religions. And everyone can join. If only for a few
minutes... heh, heh.

This is the deal. The religion is to be called, "UFOs Are
Raelian" and is to be headed up by a Pop. Pop can be, oh, say
me. I am the oldest of the crew. Surely older than you, Josh.
Unless you are _that_ Joshua.

The religion is to be based on the sexual practices of the
Really Real Raelians. I am told that their manner of
reproduction is intense, non-motional sex. But one must needs
be under the affluence of Grippahol. Or else it don't work.

So I propose that I supply the Gripp. You can be second in
command. I will be Pop. I insist on sharing the prophets with
you. As for the profits, well, we can work it out later.

Love, Peace and Really Raelian, Brother ...


Pop Morty the First

PS: You may if you choose, provide Hemp from Heaven and Kevlar
     socks or other birth preventing accuterment, in fact, I
     recommend it.










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   Sep > Sep 3

                Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:58:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 18:51:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -


 >Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 15:53:31 -0700
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 10:56:33 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans <shooter@afterimagephoto.tv>
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>>Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 08:31:47 -0500
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

 >>Mr. Lehmberg,

 >>Let's say that the government gave up and said, "Okay. You win.
 >>Here are all the files on ET life and ET craft".

You miss the point here, Mr. E. - it's not that they "give up"
that is so critical. It is that they _have_ anything to give up.
If they do (and scientists with more intellectual bravery than
Condon and Menzel believed that they do) then we are all being
done a profound and disrespectful injustice to have it kept from
us. It's obvious that you think they do not, and I have to
wonder what you base _your_ even more puzzling conjecture upon.

 >>And it turned out that ET life and ET craft simply didn't exist,
 >>after all....

I think that this is harder to accept than the alternative.
Moreover, I think that anyone with a LICK of common sense would
think similarly... Isn't that odd? To me, _you're_ the kook,
metaphorically speaking.

 >And maybe gravity too is a figment of our imagination? Maybe we
 >were just convinced of it and now believe it and if we did not
 >believe it then we would levitate? ;-)

Bad analogy, Lara. Mr. E obviously believes that corn comes in a
can, and that cornbread are square, while it is _pie_ that are
ROUND. Besides, Mr. E. can always get _me_ to levitate!

 >I am sorry to say, but I fail to see how so many millions of
 >people can have similar and different experiences, and we have
 >goverments who are known for their devious attempts at
 >manipulation and control and secrets and lies, and you think
 >that there is 'nothing going on'? ;-)

Mr. Evans has stock in a future as _he_ has planned it Lara, and
has no room for a reality that does not guarantee the gainful
inflation of his investment in that future... you bump the ante
a little more than he's comfortable with.

 >Let's assume that that possibility occurs! If all the people who
 >don't know finally manage to find out it was just some
 >mind-control experiment by the CIA, or whatever, that ET/UFOs do
 >not exist! Then those people will have found some truth! For
 >those millions of persons it would be worth it! ;-)

...not if it's outside the accepted cultural meme of Mr. E.!

 >Either way, my friend, my life for the truth - _whatever_ that
 >truth may be - is worth it! ;-)

...Only if it the *accepted* truth, the humano-centric truth, or
the party line truth. There are no truths that don't have
humanity at their sun source and center...

 ><snip>

 >>_That_ is why Ms. Johnstone's act is
 >>senseless. Unless the pro-UFO crowd gets the answer they want to
 >>hear - be it the truth or not - she will die from starvation.
 >>Stupid.

I don't want an answer that I want to hear, Mr. E.! I want the
truth _you_ can't handle. There are already too many people
telling me what they think I should be hearing -- a large part
of the aggregate problem. You've joined that club. I remain
unimpressed, unfulfilled, and unsatisfied by that particular
brand of mindset.

 >I hope you do not mind if I decide what is, and is not, a
 >senseless act to commit with _my_ body? I would not wish to
 >instruct you what to do with yours?

Nope. Sorry Lara. Most would have you taste good, not have good
taste. IOW, most would have you validate their philosophy than
passionately express your own. They'll learn nothing, of course,
but that's probably the design.

 >I imagine there is some anger behind this issue that you are not
 >willing to look at or admit to yourself? Possibly some secrets
 >you are hiding from your own consciousness?

...Conscience rather than consciousness, I'm thinking...

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by scurrilous
skepti-bunkies.









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   Sep > Sep 3

                  Newark Airport Radar Information - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 17:19:22 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 18:57:03 -0400
Subject: Newark Airport Radar Information - Ledger


 >Date: 31 Aug 2001 19:08:50 -0000
 >To: List Member <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Colm Kelleher - NIDS <NIDS@lb.bcentral.com>
 >Subject: Newark Airport Radar Information

 >On July 25, 2001, NIDS sent a FOIA request to the FAA requesting
 >radar tapes (Tracon) for the July 14-15, 2001 timeframe around
 >the Carteret UFO incident. NIDS also requested the tower voice
 >tapes for the same time period from Newark International
 >Airport.

 >Prior to receiving the FOIA data, NIDS received a preliminary
 >analytical report that details unidentified flying objects
 >without transponders detected on air traffic control radar in
 >the airspace around Newark International Airport on the night of
 >July 14-15, 2001. The report is summarized in table form below.

 >The following points are to be noted:

 >All times in the report are Zulu time (GMT). Subtract 4 hours to
 >get Carteret time for each data point.

 >Speed of the different objects is measured in knots (kts).

 >EWR refers to Newark International Airport.

 >_None_ of the objects in the table below had transponders.

 >By far the most noteworthy aspect of this communication is the
 >large number of objects detected that DO NOT have transponders
 >(all commercial aircraft have transponders) in the airspace
 >around Newark International at the same time that an estimated
 >seventy eyewitnesses on the New Jersey Turnpike and a further
 >fifty (estimated) witnesses from Staten Island reported
 >unidentified lights in the same area of sky.

 >A request to randomly check for aircraft without transponders at
 >the same time on a DIFFERENT night produced the result that
 >there were no objects without transponders in the air around
 >Newark International airport on that second, randomly chosen,
 >night.

 >This "control" study lends support to the notion that such a
 >large profusion of objects without transponders in the air
 >around one of the busiest international airports in the world is
 >unusual. Secondly, the fact that multiple objects without
 >transponders were in the same airspace while over one hundred
 >eyewitnesses on the ground were watching several unidentified
 >objects over Carteret may be of interest.

 >In addition, we now have interviews with 13 witnesses posted on
 >our website:

 >http://www.nidsci.org/news/newjersey_contents.html

 >National Institute for Discovery Science
 >www.nidsci.org


Very good. It should also be noted that aircraft not equipped
with transponders are not permitted into controlled airspace in
that TRACON, or in most TRACONs for that matter, without prior
approval of the controllers of that TRACON.

Additionally, most aircraft are required to have Mode C, an
electronic slave to the aircraft's transponder which altitude
identifies the aircraft as well as other information such as the
aircraft's ID [ie N number in the States.. C-F or G preceeding
three other letters in Canada].


Don Ledger








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   Sep > Sep 4

                Re: Newark Airport Radar Information - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 17:32:51 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 16:02:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Newark Airport Radar Information - Ledger


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Newark Airport Radar Information
 >Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 16:19:14 +0000

 >>Date: 31 Aug 2001 19:08:50 -0000
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: Colm Kelleher - NIDS <NIDS@lb.bcentral.com>
 >>Subject: Newark Airport Radar Information

 >>On July 25, 2001, NIDS sent a FOIA request to the FAA requesting
 >>radar tapes (Tracon) for the July 14-15, 2001 timeframe around
 >>the Carteret UFO incident. NIDS also requested the tower voice
 >>tapes for the same time period from Newark International
 >>Airport.

 >>Prior to receiving the FOIA data, NIDS received a preliminary
 >>analytical report that details unidentified flying objects
 >>without transponders detected on air traffic control radar in
 >>the airspace around Newark International Airport on the night of
 >>July 14-15, 2001. The report is summarized in table form below.

 >>The following points are to be noted:

 >>All times in the report are Zulu time (GMT). Subtract 4 hours to
 >>get Carteret time for each data point.

 >>Speed of the different objects is measured in knots (kts).

 >It is delightful to see some good, sensible scientific case
 >investigation posted here in place of the all-too-common fare of
 >ego displays and silliness.


Hi Dick,

I've already responded separately to the NIDS submission
[additional air traffic control details] but I must echo your
remarks as well.


Don Ledger








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   Sep > Sep 4

                    Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 14:55:41 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 16:04:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert - Hatch


 >Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 16:44:43 -0400
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 10:34:22 -0700
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert

<snip>

 >>My only concern here is that some unnecessary fuss might be made
 >>out of lens effects and the like. For that, of course, I must
 >>defer to the experts, no matter how hard it is to spell their
 >>last names.

 >May I suggest you visit:

 >http://brumac.8k.com

 >and look at the cellular image in the Dock Video. This is not an
 >artifact of looking at a tiny image using a microscope. I have
 >shown the full video frame and the UFO image takes up a sizeable
 >part. Definitely the structure imaged therein is characteristic
 >of the object, whatever it was. The cellular structure
 >discovered by Burleson is similar. However, I have not looked at
 >th Hart photos for independent confirmation.


Hello Bruce!

I found the web pages with the pix (thanks).

I cannot call any of this "lens effects", as there is a definite
if irregular shape visible.

Frame 44, (color image on the left) shows something that reminds
me of the Japanese lanterns that were something of a fad here in
the 1950s. Made of paper, they unfolded, accordion style, from
top to bottom. People would put candles or small electric lites
inside. They were good yard decorations for lawn parties etc.
but the first rains ruined them.

Frame 77 (color image, bottom-right) shows a less regular shape,
more like a rock or a potato. The entire bottom section is dimly
illuminated, much like a lamp inside of a paper or
semi-transparent plastic bag. The bright spot in the middle of
that lit portion strikes me as the source of the illumination.

None of this is anything like what I had in mind when I
mentioned "lens effects", I must agree.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







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   Sep > Sep 4

               Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 15:36:21 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 16:05:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Hatch


 >From: Franois Parmantier <parcol@club-internet.fr>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind
 >Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 17:06:52 +0200

 >>Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 08:03:05 -0700
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind

 >>>From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>Source: The Village Voice

 >>>http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0135/segall2.php

 >>>Week of August 29 - September 4, 2001

 >>>Close Encounter of the Raelian Kind
 >>>by Rebecca Segall

 >>>Raelianism was founded 30 years ago in France by auto-racing
 >>>reporter Claude Vorilhon. Now known as "Rael", he claims that in
 >>>1973 he was approached by a four-foot-tall alien who identified
 >>>himself as one of the "Elohim" - humanoid, all-powerful
 >>>extraterrestrials who had created life on Earth through cloning.
 >>>Vorilhon was the chosen son. His single mother had been
 >>>artificially inseminated by one of their number, and he was to
 >>>prepare earthlings for the Elohim's return.

 >>Didn't some large religion [snip] ... start out
 >>with precisely the same silly rap?

[snip]

 >>Frankly, this sounds like a classic French con-artist;
 >>commercially tapping the un-met religious needs of thousands
 >>if not millions; [snip -LH]

- - -

 >Dear List members,

 >We, French, feel deeply sorry and apologize for exporting l
 >Rael to North America.

Oh heck. After exporting McDonald's Hamburgers to France,
I suppose we had it coming.

 >Claude Vorilhon is very well known in France, and not only among
 >ufologists, as a dangerous person and his group as a very well
 >organized and profitable company. Please note that he claims to
 >be the fastest religious leader thanks to his disciples who fund
 >the raelian racing car team. Unfortunately, the reality is not
 >so funny and his cloning project is worrying. So there is a need
 >to spread informations about him

Cloning requires science, not religion. I don't expect
much to come of it. -LH

 >French journalists have carried out investigations into the
 >Raelian movement and his personal story. The last one was
 >broadcast on a French TV, M6, few months ago. In this report,
 >his best old-friend testified that Rael confessed to him he
 >never saw any flying saucer and that he created the whole story.

 >Best regards to all,

 >Franois Parmantier

Aha! Thanks for the info, I had not heard that.

And let me make a prediction: The devoted Raeleans will
vigorously deny this confession of Rael, and his old best
friend will be portrayed as a tool to some powerful but
secret agency in league with:

(a) the devil,
(b) MJ-12
(c) the CIA or French equivalent -or-
(d) The McDonald's International conspiracy.

Once committed to insanities like Raelism, no amount
of sweet reason or logic will dislodge their beliefs.

But hey! This is religion. Its not _supposed_ to
make any sense.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

PS: McDonalds here puts _both_ mustard and ketchup
on the same burger, every single time. A conspiracy?
its more like a proven formula. Amazing.











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   Sep > Sep 4

                Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 17:42:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 16:07:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:44:30 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: 31 Aug 2001 14:32:33 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>>From: David Wachenschwanz <ploot@atomiccafe.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure
 >>>Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:15:04 -0500

 ><snip>

 >>There is an analogy described by often by Daniel Sheehan. It is
 >>of 1,000 or more Jewish concentration camp prisioners being
 >>guarded by 2, 3, or 4 German guards with guns. The prisioners
 >>just sat and waited to be led to the slaughter.

 >What the hell are you and Sheehan talking about? Are you nuts?

 >>if we all combine our strengths and talents we can overrun the
 >>evil holding us captive. She recognizes the fact that some people
 >>might have to die to free everyone else.

 >You are, aren't you?  You are bloomin', stark-raving looney.

Your insults should be as full featured as your denial, Booby.
You'd really _have_ something then.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

 >~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.








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   Sep > Sep 4

                                   No Joke

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 23:03:17 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 16:10:09 -0400
Subject: No Joke


Sorry folks, but I don't think the UFO subject or its effects on
human beings is funny at all.

The evidence is overwhelming that we are being diddled with by
Beings From Somewhere (ET or not doesn't really matter) and
notwithstanding Bob Young and his ilk (Non potest, ergo non est)
we should be at least trying to systematically gather data,
critically analyzing it, and subjecting our interpretations to
thoroughgoing peer review. That is the only scientific approach.

It is only the skeptibunkers like Young who are totally
convinced that they already have the answer in advance; the rest
of us believe in trying to do science.

What _is_ funny is the human reactions to UFO reports, which
gives us a wide range of laughable absurdities all too often
displayed here. Some of it distinctly reminds me of the old
saying about laughing past the graveyard.

As anyone who knows me can affirm, I have a very lively and
active sense of humor about life in general. As far as UFOs are
concerned, the funniest thing is the people who declaim and rant
and posture constantly while avoiding participation in any
serious efforts to ascertain the truth.


Dick









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             Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Evans

From: Roger Evans <shooter@afterimagephoto.tv>
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 18:08:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 16:12:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Evans


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 31 Aug 2001 14:32:33 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

Previously, Grant Cameron wrote:

 >There is an analogy described by often by Daniel Sheehan. It is
 >of 1,000 or more Jewish concentration camp prisioners being
 >guarded by 2, 3, or 4 German guards with guns. The prisioners
 >just sat and waited to be led to the slaughter.

Grant, you are way out of line and so is Sheehan. It is one
thing for 1000 people to sit passively under the watch of a few
guards. It is something else altogether when those guards have
their guns pointed at one's children, which was the real
leverage used on concentration camp prisoners; act up and your
loved ones will be killed right in front of you. You and Sheehan
make me sick, trying to twist history and devalue the deaths of
millions just so you can form a sound bite. It is no wonder that
you take the possible death of Ms. Johnstone so casually. You
are not human.


Roger Evans









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                      Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Cameron

From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
Date: 3 Sep 2001 16:22:47 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 16:14:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Cameron

 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:44:28 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: 2 Sep 2001 12:35:30 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Lara Johnstone FAQ

 >>Source: http://www.bushufodisclosure.org/menucontact.html

 >>Frequently Asked Questions about Lara Johnstone:

 ><snip>

 >>Have I ever had a UFO Experience?

 >>No.

 >>Do I believe in UFOs?

 >>I have no idea whether UFOs/ETs exist or not. My hungerstrike
 >>-- for me -- is NOT ABOUT UFOs, but about FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

 ><snip>

 >>What other issues have I been active in and concerned about?

 >>For the past 8 or 9 years I have worked as a volunteer and
 >>activist in the prisoners rehabilitation, prison reform, social
 >>justice, environmental justice, ecological education, third
 >>world debt relief, anti-globalization, anti-drug war,
 >>anti-police brutality, anti-racism, anti-death penalty,
 >>free-speech, radical honesty, community policing, alternative
 >>currencies, anti-war and new abolitionist movements.

 >Mr. Cameron, UFO UpDates List Members, my dear friends:

 >Grant, you have finally managed to do a fine public service,
 >here, with your FAQ about Lara Johnstone.

 >This isn't about UFOs, but about far Left and Internationalist
 >Anarchist politics (the latter an oxymoron if ever there was
 >one). Ms. Johnstone and her associates have undoubtedly read
 >somewhere that UFO related websites are one of the most popular
 >categories of the world-wide web, after porn.

 >They are acting accordingly and will monopolize as much UFO
 >related bandwidth as they can, with the help of their
 >noviciates, such as Grant Cameron. The message is anti-west,
 >anti-US, anti-democracy, anti-anything in order to inflate their
 >egos to the enormous sizes needed to give meaning to their
 >current miserable lives.

 >I have decided that I will just push the delete button and not
 >waste my time. I am sure that many of my good friends on this
 >list have just now levitated themselves a few inches above their
 >chairs and are right now pounding the keyboards and smashing the
 >mice with glee.

 >I'm sorry to have to disapoint you, ladies and germs, but it'll
 >save time which can be put to better use debunking a few more
 >flying saucer stories. Regretfully, my good friends, many of you
 >will to on wasting valuable time and energy as you allow
 >yourselves to be manipulated by these ingrates.


Bob

Give the a "commie behind every tree" dogma a rest. The cold war
ended 10 years ago, and ravings like yours do nothiong but
encourage more warfare and more death.

Grant


"Are you ready for the revolution?"
Lara Johnstone, a California woman who began a Hunger Strike for
Disclosure on July 28th.








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                     Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 20:21:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 18:58:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Salvaille


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:54:50 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: 2 Sep 2001 12:35:30 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Lara Johnstone FAQ

<snip>

 >>Have I ever been arrested for civil disobedience?

 >>Yes, three times

 >>- 1) In Cumbria, England with Greenpeace, protesting against
 >>Sellafield, a Nuclear power station as heavily contaminated with
 >>radioactivity as Chernobyl;

 >This, ladies & gentlemen, should give you a good indication of
 >the accuracy and credibility of Johnstone and company.

Don't activists have the same rights as debunkers?

Talking about the straw and the beam...


Regards









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                     Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Johnstone

From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 17:18:53 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:02:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Johnstone


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:44:28 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: 2 Sep 2001 12:35:30 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Lara Johnstone FAQ

 >>Source: http://www.bushufodisclosure.org/menucontact.html

 >>Frequently Asked Questions about Lara Johnstone:

 >Mr. Cameron, UFO UpDates List Members, my dear friends:

 >Grant, you have finally managed to do a fine public service,
 >here, with your FAQ about Lara Johnstone.

 >This isn't about UFOs, but about far Left and Internationalist
 >Anarchist politics (the latter an oxymoron if ever there was
 >one).

Mr. Young! That is very funny! Can you please then answer me why
I have very good friends in US Militia's? I have more friends
on the right, with Constitutionalist/Libertarian views, than I
have on the left!

I choose my friends because of _who_ they are, not because of
their political ideology!

 >Ms. Johnstone and her associates have undoubtedly read
 >somewhere that UFO related websites are one of the most popular
 >categories of the world-wide web, after porn.

Not until now, had I ever read that! But thanks for the info!
Maybe I should have read that certain ufo related individuals
were so narrow minded that their brains have lost the ability to
change their minds.. ;-)

 >They are acting accordingly and will monopolize as much UFO
 >related bandwidth as they can, with the help of their
 >noviciates, such as Grant Cameron.

Who are _they_? I am _one_ person who went to a Disclosure
Briefing and was horrified! I have spoken to some of my friends
in the _left_ and asked them to support Disclosure for this
issue, and _every_ single one of them, said absolutely _not_!
Their answers were: "the UFO movement is so full of kooks and
spies and people who see things and it is like entering a
hornets' nest"!

Clearly one hornet is now emerging and showing
himself?

Answer me just a few questions Mr. Young?

1. What is your problem with Disclosure Mr. YOung?

2. Why do you not seem to want the DP witnesses to
    testify?

 >The message is anti-west,
 >anti-US, anti-democracy, anti-anything

Anti-west? I beg your pardon, how can supporting one of the
greatest documents ever published -- the United States
Constitution be 'anti-west', and the same goes for
'anti-democracy'???

Seems like Bob is anti-anyone who wants disclosure? Huh?

 >in order to inflate their
 >egos to the enormous sizes

There is nothing wrong with having a healthy ego, in my opinion.
It means you 'think' for yoruself, you are your 'own' person,
you 'get things done'.. you are not easily manipulated.

 >needed to give meaning to their
 >current miserable lives.

That is very funny! My life ain't miserable and
never has been. There is not one incident of my
life that I regret.. can you say the same? ;-)

On the contrary it does seem that many in the UFO movement lives
are terribly miserable, the fear, the hate, the assumptions and
accusations without any attempt at verification..

I have yet to come across so much misery, even in the prison
gulag of America!

 >I have decided that I will just push the delete button and not
 >waste my time. I am sure that many of my good friends on this
 >list have just now levitated themselves a few inches above their
 >chairs and are right now pounding the keyboards and smashing the
 >mice with glee.

Actually some may, Mr. Young. But I am not. I would actually
like to have a conversation with you, about the issues of
disclosure. However it seems that you have clearly made some
assumptions about me, and until you get over them, that will not
be possible.

If you do wish to have a conversation about facts, thoughts, and
feelings at some time -- by all means write. I'll be here! I
don't delete stuff just cause it doesn't fit with my agenda! ;-)

 >I'm sorry to have to disapoint you, ladies and germs, but it'll
 >save time which can be put to better use debunking a few more
 >flying saucer stories. Regretfully, my good friends, many of you
 >will to on wasting valuable time and energy as you allow
 >yourselves to be manipulated by these ingrates.

I imagine there is much anger involved in the above statement! I
can only assume that somewhere along the line someone hoodwinked
you and you are now petrified of it happening again!

I am sorry if that is the case! I have told numerous people that
I have no secrets, anything you wish to know about me! I'll tell
you!

The issue is for me disclosure... If you don't wnat that - by
all means, that is your right. I hope you dont mind me trying to
find out what the hell is going on, cause I don't like sitting
in the dark and speculating about reality... even if the skies
are clear!

People's heads clearly are not! ;-)


Lara


+=============================================+
|   Hungerstrike Requesting President Bush    |
|   honor his agreement to tell the American  |
| people the truth about UFO's, by supporting |
| the Disclosure Project witnesses to testify |
|  about their extensive knowledge of UFO's,  |
| advanced energy and propulsion systems, etc.|
+---------------------------------------------+
|       Bush UFO Disclosure Request:          |
|     http://www.bushufodisclosure.org/       |
|           Disclosure Project:               |
|     http://www.disclosureproject.org/       |
+=============================================+









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   Sep > Sep 4

                Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 17:22:55 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:05:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:44:30 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: 31 Aug 2001 14:32:33 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>>From: David Wachenschwanz <ploot@atomiccafe.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure
 >>>Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:15:04 -0500

 ><snip>

 >>There is an analogy described by often by Daniel Sheehan. It is
 >>of 1,000 or more Jewish concentration camp prisioners being
 >>guarded by 2, 3, or 4 German guards with guns. The prisioners
 >>just sat and waited to be led to the slaughter.

 >What the hell are you and Sheehan talking about? Are you nuts?

 >>if we all combine our strengths and talents we can overrun the
 >>evil holding us captive. She recognizes the fact that some people
 >>might have to die to free everyone else.

 >You are, aren't you?  You are bloomin', stark-raving looney.

 >Bob Young

 >Anything you suspect will turn out to be true if you pursue it
 >long enough. Paranoia is just another word for Ignorance.

 >- - - Hunter S. Thompson

Very interesting quote Mr. YOung! ;-)

Lara

+=============================================+
|   Hungerstrike Requesting President Bush    |
|   honor his agreement to tell the American  |
| people the truth about UFO's, by supporting |
| the Disclosure Project witnesses to testify |
|  about their extensive knowledge of UFO's,  |
| advanced energy and propulsion systems, etc.|
+---------------------------------------------+
|       Bush UFO Disclosure Request:          |
|     http://www.bushufodisclosure.org/       |
|           Disclosure Project:               |
|     http://www.disclosureproject.org/       |
+=============================================+








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                  Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 16:11:08 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:05:30 -0400
Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released - Ledger


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 01:32:19 EDT
 >Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released
 >>Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:34:42 +0100

 >>>From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: MOD Rendlesham File Released
 >>>Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 23:28:15 +0100

<snip>

 >I don't understand. On one hand Dave and Andy claim Georgia is
 >"puffing" magazine sales and "buy the magazine" yet all they
 >appear to do is puff flyingsaucery.com and 'go to our web site.'
 >Gee, I can't tell much difference between what they critique and
 >what they do!


I'm always highly amused at how highly amused Andy is. He's one
cheerful fellow.

Don Ledger









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                     Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Johnstone

From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 17:25:23 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:08:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Johnstone


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:54:50 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: 2 Sep 2001 12:35:30 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Lara Johnstone FAQ


 >>Source: http://www.bushufodisclosure.org/menucontact.html

 >>Frequently Asked Questions about Lara Johnstone:

 ><snip>

 >Oh, I forgot the rest:

 >>Have I ever been arrested for civil disobedience?

 >>Yes, three times.

 >>- 1) In Cumbria, England with Greenpeace, protesting against
 >>Sellafield, a Nuclear power station as heavily contaminated with
 >>radioactivity as Chernobyl;

 >This, ladies & gentlemen, should give you a good indication of
 >the accuracy and credibility of Johnstone and company.


I'll let Bob Young and Hunter Thompson answer the above...

"Anything you suspect will turn out to be true if you pursue it
long enough. Paranoia is just another word for Ignorance."
                                  - Hunter S. Thompson

Lara


+=============================================+
|   Hungerstrike Requesting President Bush    |
|   honor his agreement to tell the American  |
| people the truth about UFO's, by supporting |
| the Disclosure Project witnesses to testify |
|  about their extensive knowledge of UFO's,  |
| advanced energy and propulsion systems, etc.|
+---------------------------------------------+
|       Bush UFO Disclosure Request:          |
|     http://www.bushufodisclosure.org/       |
|           Disclosure Project:               |
|     http://www.disclosureproject.org/       |
+=============================================+









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             Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Evans

From: Roger Evans <shooter@afterimagephoto.tv>
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 21:12:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:11:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Evans


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:58:25 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

Previously, Alfred wrote:

 >I don't want an answer that I want to hear, Mr. E.! I want the
 >truth _you_ can't handle.

You _claim_ that the life of you and your own family is worth
more than the information she seeks. Yet, _she_ gets closer to
death with each passing day that you intellectualize about her
plight over dinner with friends. Maybe this time next month or
so, you can have breakfast with your UFO buddies and talk about
how sad her passing was and how much she'll be missed by the UFO
community... please pass the biscuits, thank you.

Here is the truth _you_ can't handle: She's losing weight and
you're not.

Talk is cheap Alfred, and yours is the cheapest I've ever seen.

Like you, I believe in ET life. Unlike you, I believe in human
life more and hers shouldn't be wasted just to satisfy your
curiosity about a truth that the government will never fess up
to. To me, she's a person. To you, she's just a means to an end.
And what if her ploy doesn't work? Who will you line up next to
take the fall? A member of _your_ family, maybe? How much was
this week's grocery bill, by the way?

Seems like the John Ford restoration fund just missed an
opportunity for a contribution and _you_ missed an opportunity
to put your money where your food filled mouth is.


Roger Evans








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             Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 23:03:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:13:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Maccabee


 >Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 01:44:44 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind


<snip>

 >I survived the 2001 hemp parade, festival, and playing their
 >outdoor concert in a spectacular setting here in Berlin,
 >Germany. I'm laid back with my keyboard in my lap. And no, I am
 >definitely not fasting. I have the munchies at this moment while
 >traversing the wormhole. Watermelon calls from heaven.

 >I m pondering over the gigantic and distorted ego of Claude
 >Vorilhon. If one ponders the spiritual practices of the Raelians
 >one must see that it is an ideal con to have alien tantric sex
 >with an unlimited sea of goddesses and with every follower
 >praying at your feet and masterbating to you and your alien
 >ancestors. They seem to be having a lot more fun than the Hare
 >Krishnas, Clone On!

 >Yeah, right. Since I spent most of my life in the San Francisco
 >Bay area of California, I sure got to witness a lot of
 >charlatans who were "saviours of the simple minded". dangling
 >spiritual carrots before their noses. But I could never bring
 >myself to have unlimited loving sex with an endless temple sea
 >of "Goddesses of Light" if I were living a lie. Damn. But music
 >has brought me lots of love in my life.

 >However, if anypne on the List feels like conspiring with me to
 >jointly launch a cult like the Raelians but beyond, contact me
 >off-List. Women devotees please do the same. The temple is open
 >to anyone.

Since I just got back from a grand Church in which I was playing
Bach's great D minor Prelude and Fugue (you know the one....
Captain Nemo was playing it as the submarine was dying in 20,000
Leagues Under the Sea... you are old enough to have seen that
movie... aren't you?) and reading your note about music and
Raelian love goddesses by the dozen, I got to thinking.

If I cloned myself many times at least one of us might be
successful in setting up a Bachian cult, dedicated to Bacchus,
of course, and playing wild organ music 24/7 and eve wilder
organs while watching the auto races.

I wonder if Rael still watches the auto races.

Uh, congratulations on surviving the hemp parade. I presume that
second hand smoke made everything go well. But being at home
with a keyboard on your lap? Can't you get something softer,
more curvy? Rael would be ashamed of you.

Bach to the Future!  (um,. title of a piece on my tape of
compositions)












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                Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Jan Pheneger <jan0320@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 01:11:06 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:18:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure -


Dear, Dear Lara....

I hope in the end that you can smile all the smiles you made in
your reply post I made to please knock this "fasting" nonsense
off.

Do you really think the Government is going to give a damn to
what you are doing to your body? I think _not_! But it is just
my opinion after all.

As for my encouragement and devotion to the men and women who go
to war to fight for this Country...

My son sits as a sniper with the United States Army in Kosovo
_as I write this, right along with the rest of our military.

Yes, it was his mother who initially encouraged him to be all
that he can_wants_ to_ be by enlisting. He had a free choice.
Supportive(?) You bet I am! And I _am_ damn proud of all of
them men and women. After all _our_ freedom  is _never_ free
Lara. Many men and women have died for a _just_ cause.

I suppose you can too. It is your decision.

For this prior post I made was after all only for your welfare
for _your_ health's sake. Just a genuine concern. It is not
going to make you some hero.

But I sincerely wish you the best Lara as you are a free woman.


Respectfully,

Jan Pheneger









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                   Re: Newark Airport Radar Information -

From: David Wachenschwanz <ploot@atomiccafe.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 09:12:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:23:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Newark Airport Radar Information -


 >Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 17:19:22 -0300
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Newark Airport Radar Information

 >>Date: 31 Aug 2001 19:08:50 -0000
 >>To: List Member <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: Colm Kelleher - NIDS <NIDS@lb.bcentral.com>
 >>Subject: Newark Airport Radar Information

 >>On July 25, 2001, NIDS sent a FOIA request to the FAA requesting
 >>radar tapes (Tracon) for the July 14-15, 2001 timeframe around
 >>the Carteret UFO incident. NIDS also requested the tower voice
 >>tapes for the same time period from Newark International
 >>Airport.

 >>Prior to receiving the FOIA data, NIDS received a preliminary
 >>analytical report that details unidentified flying objects
 >>without transponders detected on air traffic control radar in
 >>the airspace around Newark International Airport on the night of
 >>July 14-15, 2001. The report is summarized in table form below.

 >>The following points are to be noted:

 >>All times in the report are Zulu time (GMT). Subtract 4 hours to
 >>get Carteret time for each data point.

 >>Speed of the different objects is measured in knots (kts).

 >>EWR refers to Newark International Airport.

 >>_None_ of the objects in the table below had transponders.

 >>By far the most noteworthy aspect of this communication is the
 >>large number of objects detected that DO NOT have transponders
 >>(all commercial aircraft have transponders) in the airspace
 >>around Newark International at the same time that an estimated
 >>seventy eyewitnesses on the New Jersey Turnpike and a further
 >>fifty (estimated) witnesses from Staten Island reported
 >>unidentified lights in the same area of sky.

 >>A request to randomly check for aircraft without transponders at
 >>the same time on a DIFFERENT night produced the result that
 >>there were no objects without transponders in the air around
 >>Newark International airport on that second, randomly chosen,
 >>night.

 >>This "control" study lends support to the notion that such a
 >>large profusion of objects without transponders in the air
 >>around one of the busiest international airports in the world is
 >>unusual. Secondly, the fact that multiple objects without
 >>transponders were in the same airspace while over one hundred
 >>eyewitnesses on the ground were watching several unidentified
 >>objects over Carteret may be of interest.

 >>In addition, we now have interviews with 13 witnesses posted on
 >>our website:

 >>http://www.nidsci.org/news/newjersey_contents.html

 >>National Institute for Discovery Science
 >>www.nidsci.org

 >Very good. It should also be noted that aircraft not equipped
 >with transponders are not permitted into controlled airspace in
 >that TRACON, or in most TRACONs for that matter, without prior
 >approval of the controllers of that TRACON.

 >Additionally, most aircraft are required to have Mode C, an
 >electronic slave to the aircraft's transponder which altitude
 >identifies the aircraft as well as other information such as the
 >aircraft's ID [ie N number in the States.. C-F or G preceeding
 >three other letters in Canada].


And... must be at least a private pilot. No students on solo.
I've been a PP since 1984 and I still avoid flying into such
terminal control areas... its still hair raising for me!









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                  Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 4 Sep 2001 07:21:40 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:25:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert - Hamilton


 >Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 18:45:13 -0400
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Cellular & Infrared Alert
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >CELLULAR ALERT:

 >I would like to collect sightings in which there are reports of
 >cellular structure. I have recently been informed by Don
 >Burleson that he has analyzed the Lubbock Light photos of Hart
 >and has found a rather startling hexagonal cell structure.

<snip>

Sounds like Frank Kaufman's testimony concerning the underside
of the Roswell craft which he described as arrays of hexagonal
cells.


Bill H.








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                Re: Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:03:25 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:30:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements - Bruni


 >From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope & Rendlesham Statements
 >Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 14:26:57 -0600

 >Dear Georgina and Listers:

 >Thanks for clearing up a lot of questions I had after reading the
 >report.

 >I do have a question or two.

 >Did anyone _verify_ the reported "woman's scream"... talk to the
 >occupants at the farm house immediately after the incident? If
 >so, what, if anything was said? If not, why was this aspect of
 >the investigation tabled?

During my research I discovered that some of the locals had
heard similar noises in the area. I believe this is put down to
the deer. Apparently there are several different species living
in the forest.


Best wishes,


Georgina









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                    '71 Garden Grove California Abduction

From: Luis R. Gonzlez Manso <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 11:35:25 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:36:40 -0400
Subject: '71 Garden Grove California Abduction


Dear Colleagues,

I have a fragmented collection of FSR.

In Volume 22 #3 (which includes the very first investigation of
an humanoid case by a pro-abductionist Hopkins), Alvin Lawson
presented an article titled 'Hypnotic Regression Of Alleged
CE-III Cases' were he mentioned his investigations around the
Garden Grove abduction, centering in a March 1971 incident in
the Arizona desert with 7-foot clones with crocodile-scaled
skin!

There is a mention of a future follow-up article, but I have
been unable to locate it. Besides, I seem to recall that this
case was finally considered a hoax.

Can anyone point me to the pertinent sources?


Thanks in advance,

Luis R. Gonzalez









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                      Venturing From Shadows Into Light

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:41:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:41:20 -0400
Subject: Venturing From Shadows Into Light



From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

Source: Los Angeles Times

http://www.latimes.com/templates/misc/printstory.jsp?slug=la%2D000071425sep04


Venturing From Shadows Into Light

They claim to have been abducted by aliens. A Harvard research
psychiatrist backs them. Now 'experiencers' want society's
respect.

By MICHAEL P. LUCAS
TIMES STAFF WRITER

September 4 2001

Camille James sometimes wishes she were the average, everyday
Beverly Hills expectant mom she appears to be. At 35, she's
youthful and attractive with a girlish mop of chestnut hair and
a sweet, fragile smile. She breezes through life as a
caterer-schoolteacher-painter-magazine-

writer-sometime actress and--as she says she discovered in
hypnotherapy five years ago--a space alien abductee.

Under hypnosis during treatment for anxiety, she said, she
recovered memories of a night in December 1995 when she was
"taken out of my room through the ceiling in a blue beam of
light" and brought aboard a UFO, where she saw "beings that were
tall; they had white robes, big black eyes." She also recovered
memories of aliens removing a fetus she was carrying--a hybrid
alien-human fetus. Life has never been the same for James, who
learned to cope with her situation, met others like her and now
is at the forefront of a movement to bring abductees--or
experiencers, as they prefer to be called--into the mainstream
of society.

Although they're treated by popular culture like castoffs from
"The X-Files" and regarded by medical experts as sleep-disorder
victims, experiencers are drawing on the work of a controversial
but respected psychiatrist to claim a new identity that would
enable them to live openly and free of discrimination.

"All we want is to be treated like normal, intelligent adults,"
agreed Jill (who asked that her last name be withheld), an
experiencer who said she was fired from a job as a script
supervisor after confiding in co-workers.

If all this sounds too wild, then it's time to consult a
psychiatrist--and that would be Dr. John E. Mack, a 71-year-old
professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, a researcher,
Pulitzer Prize-winning author and the guiding light of UFO
believers, more than 1,000 of whom turned out last month to hear
him at the Mutual UFO Network, an annual symposium in Irvine.

Mack, who has evaluated hundreds of experiencers, says this
group of people should be treated with respect; he considers
them akin to shamans or religious mystics. Except that the
alien-abduction phenomenon, he explained in an interview, is
"like an outreach program from the cosmos." Experiencers can
take comfort in Mack's work--and also in data showing that
they're not alone. A January 2000 nationwide poll by Yankelovich
Partners revealed that 1% of American adults believe they've
encountered beings from other planets. And a Gallup Poll in May
showed that 33% of Americans believe that extraterrestrial
beings have visited Earth--and another 27% aren't sure they
haven't.

Even so, 40 years after the first reported alien abduction, of
New Hampshire couple Barney and Betty Hill, experiencers still
move furtively on the edges of society, wary of ostracism. And
Mack, who's been on the Harvard Medical School faculty since
1956, mostly teaching psychoanalysis to residents, said he, too,
was long a skeptic. Twelve years ago when an associate
introduced him to UFO researcher and author Budd Hopkins, Mack,
as he wrote in a 1992 research paper: "... assumed that both
[Hopkins] and his subjects must be mentally disturbed."

But Mack said he took a closer look in 1990, and several
puzzling phenomena intrigued him: Young children and abductees
in far-flung locations gave similar accounts; many abductees
showed consistent injuries such as distinctive cuts and marks on
the skin. And often abduction reports accompanied independent
sightings of strange lights or flying objects.

Mack plunged into study, founding a Harvard-affiliated academic
center, PEER--Program for Extraordinary Experience
Research--through which he evaluated hundreds of abductees, and
published his findings in two books.

In "Abduction: Human Encounters With Aliens" (Scribner's, 1994)
he documents his science--examining experiencers by taking
psychological histories, performing batteries of standard
clinical tests and conducting extensive interviews. In the
follow-up "Passport to the Cosmos" (Crown, 1999), he examines
abductions reported in traditional societies around the world.

His conclusion: Experiencers are authentic--not mentally ill.
His theory: Some powerful intelligence is trying to intervene in
human affairs. All of which, not surprisingly, has drawn rebukes
within the academic community.

After all, this is the same John E. Mack whose book "A Prince of
Our Disorder," a biography of British-born Arab warrior T.E.
Lawrence, won the 1977 Pulitzer Prize for biography. And the
same Mack who testified before Congress in 1983 about the
psychological impact on American youth of the threat of nuclear
war. And the same Mack who served as president of the respected
International Society for Political Psychology.

And so his work draws respectful disagreement from some
academics, outright derision from others.

"He enjoys ... being the center of attention," sighs Arnold S.
Relman, professor emeritus at Harvard Medical School, who seven
years ago led a formal academic probe of Mack's work on behalf
of the medical school dean. The investigation, Relman said,
concluded that Mack should widen his professional circle of
research associates and adopt a more detached attitude toward
his subjects.

"He's not taken seriously by his colleagues anymore," Relman
said. "But in the interests of academic freedom, Harvard can
afford to have a couple of oddballs." Mack replied through an
aide that he wouldn't resort to name-calling, but he and Relman
simply disagree over the meaning of subjective reality when
applied to experiencers.

"You have the sense that these people have actually experienced
something of great meaning and depth and profundity that is not
simply a projection of their own unconscious," Mack said.

Yet Mack won't be pinned down on the literal truth of any
abduction experience, even though PEER's ongoing Multiple
Witness Project seeks to corroborate patients' abduction
episodes with spouses and others who were present at the time.
Mack said he considers critics' demands for more physical
evidence a distraction from his main inquiry into why human
beings are being contacted and by whom.

Mack asks: "How come some seemingly normal housewife, who has
not been particularly on a personal spiritual quest and isn't
necessarily interested in UFOs, is suddenly having these
tremendously powerful experiences that include being taken
somewhere and probed ... ?"

The answer could lie in the heart of the scientific controversy
surrounding the phenomenon--that is, experiencers' hypnotically
recovered memories. Experiencers are often referred to Mack by
other professionals, such as Barbara Lamb, a Claremont marriage
and family therapist who hypnotizes patients and regresses
them--that is, induces them to reexperience their past to
discover the source of various disturbances.

Lamb, who has been in practice for more than 25 years, said she
was at first "shocked and skeptical," to hear her patients
relate memories of past lives or of abduction aboard UFOs. She
concluded that space aliens exist, and "are fascinated with
human beings."

But that's "nonsense," said Herbert Spiegel, a nationally
recognized expert in hypnotherapy and member of the medical
school faculty at Columbia University. "Hypnosis is for people
with minor illnesses ... phobias or bad habits like smoking or
overeating." Hypnotic regression to recover memories of past
lives or trips to other planets, he said, is what's known as a
"rich fantasy life."

Richard J. McNally, a research psychologist in the Harvard
University Department of Psychology, is conducting a separate
study comparing those who believe they've been abducted by
aliens with Vietnam War veterans suffering from post-traumatic
stress disorder. McNally said his research suggests that
experiencers have undergone a not-uncommon disorder he describes
as sleep paralysis accompanied by "hypnopompic visions." A
sufferer of this condition, reported by about 15% of the
population, typically dreams with his eyes open, of such things
as floating in space or of shadowy beings.

"Most people wake up and say, 'That was weird' and go back to
sleep," McNally said. But experiencers he has studied share
strikingly nonmainstream attitudes embracing New Age beliefs in
such things as mysticism and UFOs. Mack brushes off such
skeptics, saying his job is to persuade society that
experiencers deserve respect. He gives them the appellation
"authentic witnesses" and says they carry a message that
Earthlings would ignore only at our peril. That message, he
said, "has to do with the perilous destruction of the Earth as a
living system [and] this destructiveness that we are engaged in
is drawing a response from the entities or beings in the
cosmos."

Still, experiencers say abduction is an intense personal drama.
For Camille James, the traumatic memories were recovered in the
course of four regression sessions with different therapists.
"Each time, it takes me about a year to recover," James said,
perched in the dining room of her airy apartment. And there are
some issues she is not emotionally prepared to confront--and
doesn't plan to revisit during regression--including the
encounter in which she became pregnant.

"I know a lot of abductees come back with a big ecological
message, but I can't say that's my message," she said. Rather,
she said her life was changed in two ways: in a new appreciation
for children--hence her decision to become a schoolteacher and
to have a baby--and a revulsion toward violence, especially in
movies or on TV. Eventually breaking free of the abductions was
its own life-changing experience, she said, involving an intense
struggle aided by spiritual advisors.

Still, James hopes for the day when her experience will be
considered normal--normal enough so she no longer needs to
shield her identity in a newspaper photo, wary of the taunts of
her students.

"Even my mother, the first time I got through telling her about
everything I'd been through, she couldn't accept it," James
said. "She listened and didn't say anything for awhile. Finally
she said, 'Why couldn't you just be gay?"'

For information about reprinting this article, go to
http://www.lats.com/rights/register.htm











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   Sep > Sep 4

                                  AA Puppet

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 12:48:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:45:16 -0400
Subject: AA Puppet


First I would like to thank Dave Vetterick, Ed Gehrman and Neil
Morris for sending me the two AA CDs. The deal was to post some
opinion on the List.

The following may or may not have been discussed somewhere...

Can someone explain to me how it was possible to cut around the
skull of the creature without, at some point, putting the body on
its belly?

Take a piece of wood (2x4 will do nicely), put it on a table and
try to make a half-inch deep cut around it with a saw, without
turning the piece of wood.

Impossible.

But this is what the guys in the film have managed to do.

Proof that the body has not been turned over:

File 09-un-numbered.avi, frame 2087
After extraction of the brain

Note the V-shaped bloodstain between the legs of the creature
and the position of the right hand.

Go to: 05-reel61.avi, frames 2089-2107
Head has not been touched

Same V-shaped blood stain at the exact same place. The position
of the body on the table has not changed. The right hand is in
the same position. And I believe that, if the body had been
turned, the large bloodstain would have been smudged.

Another giveaway is the left thoracic skin flap. It changes
between 04-reel59.avi, frame 1515 (before removal of the
internal organs) and 07-reel63.avi, frame 1347 (internal organs
removed, people working on peeling of the skin of the head). But
the flap remains unchanged through 09-un-numbered.avi, frame
1711, where the top of head has been sawed out and the brain
removed.

Many observations make this autopsy unauthentic: no photographs
but a camera incapable of close shots, the impossibility to
identify any one, attention focused on the gory aspects of the
autopsy. No measuring whatsoever, no weighing of organs and...
where are the damn jars filled with conservation liquids to put
the organs in? Did they let them rot? No study of the orifices:
a vagina examined without spreading the legs, no examination of
the mouth or the ear ducts. And, of course, the creature had no
back side.

As for the "Debris footage", gimme a break. Carefully framed to
avoid showing any human face in there: gosh, only hands.  No
recognizable faces in one film, and lots of faces - but all
masked - in the other (including an out of the room, window-
protected secretary).

Notice: all that could be identifiable had been carefully taken
out of play: faces (bare ones hidden), organs and discrete
features (out of focus).

This is AhAh, not AA.


Regards,

Serge Salvaille










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             Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 13:41:47 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:49:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure - Velez


 >Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 14:59:24 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
 >Subject: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure

 >>From: Jan Pheneger <jan0320@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:40:54 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike To Support UFO Disclosure
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Jan, Hi!

 >Thanks for your comments...

 >>Reading over all the discussion of Lara's fasting, I want to
 >>write here that which needs to be considered for her health's
 >>sake.

 >>No, I am no Physcian. But I know some as friends, from
 >>Gastrointernalist, to Neuropsychiatry.
 >>weekly and so far I am healthier than any other person she has
 >seen in a long time! ;-)

 >>Lara is going to need the help of both, in my opinion.

 >>Cannot anyone see that lara is crying out for help?

 >Sorry... I see _you_ crying out for help for _Lara_, but I have
 >not seen Lara _crying_ for help! I have experienced her as
 >writing letters requesting help for the problem (not me!), and I
 >have yet to see a letter of your concern to President Bush?

 >>I am not talking here about "publicity", or UfO Disclosure.

 >I am talking about UFO Disclosure - a much bigger problem than
 >me! Why don't people put the same effort into getting disclosure
 >as they do in attempting to convince me to 'save my health'!

 >>I say what I say here, because Lara is writing her own death
 >>sentence if she truly is going to keep up such a "fast".

 >Indeed you are totally correct! ;-) And Lara is the captain of
 >her own ship! ;-) This is but one life of many, I imagine I have
 >the right to choose what I live and die for like anyone else!?
 >;-)

 >Do you put as much effort into discouraging all those who sign
 >up for the army, navy etc to go and _die_ for killing others? As
 >you put into attempting to discourage me to die for Truth? ;-)

 >This does not mean that I do not very much appreciate your
 >concern. I just feel that your concern is a little misfocused! I
 >have _repeatedly_ said that when my health does become an
 >_issue_, I will seriously consider it and have this
 >conversation, _until_then_, I would appreciate it if anyone
 >concerned for my health could put their energies to getting
 >_disclosure_! ;-)

 >>Not only do I see her as a foolish person, the fact is, she is
 >>only fooling herself with keeping this up. No one to fool, but
 >>sadly only herself.

 >How am I fooling myself? ;-)

 >>So, I make this post not based on "foolishness", but attempts
 >>that hopefully Lara will see this post, and _take_it_ to heart
 >>based upon a true story of a young lady that _is_, thank
 >>goodness, still with us.

 >I've seen your post and I appreciate your response. I will _be_
 >with you even when my body has departed from this planet! If you
 >are going to miss my body that much, you can take a photo of it
 >or stick it up in some plaza, but personally I would prefer it
 >you appreciate my heart and soul, something that will be around
 >for many more millenia, just like yours! ;-)

 >>The young lady did "fast". For fifty-two days. Silently she
 >>wasted from her mere 127 pounds to a mere 85 pounds. She wanted
 >>to be a model.

 >Poor lady! I ain't interested in being a model. For most of my
 >life I have been very happy with being a big African girl,
 >strong and healthy! I have never had medical insurance, and I
 >have not seen a doctor until I started this fast. I have not so
 >much as had a cold in 14 years! ;-) And htat is with travelling
 >and backpacking all over the world, and eating the craziest
 >things in the craziest places. I have not even got diarrhea! ;-)
 >I am probably healthier than just about anyone on this board,
 >for now! ;-)

 >>She was not anorexic - she had a troubled mind, for which help
 >>should have been sought from a Physcian - had anyone known of
 >>this young lady's 'troubled mental state of mind'.

 >She definately did have a troubled mind! ;-) I do not! ;-)

 >>She ended up
 >>in hospital with dehydration, severe high blood pressure,
 >>irreversable heart damage and never to bear children.

 >Poor girl. I never wanted to bring children into a world of
 >hate, destruction and total denial for what life, living and
 >love is all about! ;-) But that was my choice! ;-)

 >>This young
 >>lady is only 17 years old, and a 4.0 student until her own
 >>emotions took her over the edge with "fasting".

 >This poor lady again was not the problem, but a society so
 >focussed on making women look thin, so they can be 'loved'! She
 >is NOT THE PROBLEM, the focus on money, greed, and getting love
 >for what you look like, as opposed to _who you are_ is the
 >PROBLEM! ;-)

 >>I write this to this List, because when you know someone, and I
 >>mean... personally know someone who 'fasts', help is needed from
 >>Physcians, and _not_ anyone less qualified.

 >I have more than physicians! I have common sense. I have a
 >spiritual advisor. I have a very very strong backbone! Both my
 >great grandparents survived the first concentration camps last
 >century in the Boer WAr! ;-) I have some very very strong genes
 >of survival! I have almost died 5 times! Maybe I should have
 >been a cat! ;-) And yet God or whomever is in charge wanted me
 >alive!

 >Who knows for what, but until I am dead my mission on earth is
 >for the truth, for love and for peace! Amen! ;-)

 >>I am appalled to see the support for what Lara is doing to
 >>herself. You make me sick thinking that this is a 'just cause'
 >>for any support of disclosure for any reasons.

 >>Lara, if you read this post and truly love yourself - as I am
 >>sure there are family and friends who love you - please realise
 >>that you are writing your own death sentence by keeping this up
 >>without a reputable physician to monitor you.

 >I do have a reputable physician to monitor me! Please verify
 >information before you make assumptions, and upset yourself with
 >those assumptions. ;-)

 >I am not afraid of my own death sentence, but it seems that many
 >others are! I appreciate that and again - please focus your
 >attention on the Death Sentence To Our Freedom - Secrecy And
 >Lies! ;-)

 >>If you could see for yourself the young lady I write about here,
 >>you would stop right now, just by taking a look at her and what
 >>she had done to herself.

 >I am not her, and she is not me! I imagine the paradigm you view
 >the world in is one in which you were brought up in! American
 >western obssessive with having and living as long as you can...

 >I did not grow up with that viewpoint, and of course you do not
 >have to appreciate mine. Please do not expect me to 'buy' your
 >world view point about what I can and cannot give my life for!
 >;-)

 >I appreciate that you are upset about it, and I imagine that is
 >more about your experiences with this young girl than it is
 >about me! ;-)

 >I have made up my mind.. either please help me focus on
 >_disclosure_, or accept my decision.

 >>It is heartbreaking.

 >Heartbreaking? Only if you consider living in chains and being
 >too afraid to give your life for the truth... but rather sitting
 >enslaved to the _secrecy_ and _lies_ and considering yourself
 >okay and happy... ;-)

 >>Please stop for your own sake, as well as for those who love you
 >>- before it is to late.

 >Anyone who really loves me will support me in choosing for
 >myself what cause I wish to die for or not! As my husband
 >clearly does. Maybe it is because he has realized the freedom of
 >giving your life for others in truth and love, and is still
 >around to appreciate the courage it took and how much it takes
 >to love yourself to be able and willing to make such a gift to
 >YOURSELF! ;-)

 >Others who wish me to be _around_ for them think that I am there
 >for _having_ and not for _being_ who I am! ;-) Just my 2 cents..
 >;-)

 >>One way or the other, if you do not stop, you eventually will,
 >>either kill yourself or end up with physicians treating you in
 >>and out of hospital for the harm you are doing to your body and
 >>mind.

 >The body currently called _Lara_ may eventually die, the spirit
 >currently living insider he will not!

 >As Arnold Shwarznegger (sp) says:

 >I'll be back! ;-)

 >>I hope you take this as seriously, as the rest of this List does.

 >Indeed more so! ;-)

 >>I fully agree with you John Valez.

 >As do I! ;-)


Hello Lara, hi All,

I've been sitting back reading and studying the remarks and
responses going back and forth. I'd like to make some comments
and share some observations of my own.

Lara, it's important for you to bear in mind that you never took
the time to allow folks to get to know you. _Before_ asking them
to support you in what many of us consider to be a rash,
extreme, futile and 'potentially' harmful (to you personally,)
act.

I can only speak for myself, but I would need to have confidence
in, and be fairly well assured that, a virtual stranger to
us/ufology, (such as yourself) is not just "another"
opportunistic carpetbagger who is only interested in getting as
much personal publicity as possible.

You may know how 'sincere' you are, but we don't know you well
enough to share that confidence yet. Trust and confidence must
be _earned_ (won) over time. It's unreasonable to expect that
people are going to give it freely to someone they do not know.
You're not experiencing resistance as much as the honest
incredulity of people who have been subjected to a parade of
fakes and charlatans for decades. Try to understand where a lot
of what you are hearing from people is coming from. It's honest
concern and incredulity.

The only way to accomplish anything is by allowing folks to 'get
to know you' over time. Not under the pressure filled conditions
that your act has created. Support such as you are seeking
doesn't materialize overnight. It helps if you already enjoy the
trust, confidence, and backing of the people _before_ you launch
into a such a drastic and dramatic course of action. If you
really want the genuine and enthusiastic support of enough
people to make a difference with our political system, (your
stated objective) then you should have given us a chance to
_develop_ the kind of trust and confidence in you that such
commitment/support requires.

Political support is a lot to ask from people who have not been
given the opportunity to develop that confidence in you over
time. You have no "track record" with the very people you are
seeking support from. You can't blame folks for being a bit
cautious, or even a little leery, with someone they are not at
all familiar with. You 'sound' sincere, but then again, (for all
we know) you may be just another opportunistic carpetbagger that
has rolled into town. We've all seen plenty of em. (Which
includes 'personalities' like Gersten and Greer.)

Putting _everybody_ (Bush _and_ us) into the 'limited situation'
of having to decide whether to give their support to a complete
stranger (especially by placing your own self in imminent
danger,) is tantamount to a blatant form of Blackmail or an
ultimatum. You have treated _us_ (the People) in this situation
in much the same 'crap or get off the pot' manner as you are
doing with President Bush. You suddenly announce that you have
chosen to starve your self and that we all, here and now, are
forced to put all other methods and considerations on the side
and choose whether to support you or not. (Isn't that what
General Ripper did to the President in Dr. Strangelove?) ;)

You admonish us repeatedly to write to your congress-person
before anything bad happens to you. Can you see why I use
descriptive words like "Blackmail" and "ultimatum" when
discussing your methods? Very few people that I know of are
amenable to giving in to, (much less acknowledging) emotional or
intellectual Blackmail. Or... caving in to 'ultimatums.' Do you
know of any?

The more 'personal' approach, (winning people over by giving
them a chance to get to know you and to develop genuine trust
and confidence in you through familiarity) is the only thing
that will bring the kind of results that you hope for. The kind
of ultimatum that you have issued us all by your action, added
to the defensive and sometimes preachy responses that you are
giving to people, (thus far. See your own responses to Jan.)
will only serve to _alienate_ potential sources of support in
the UFO community. That approach will not help you to accomplish
your stated goal, or to gather the kind of mass support you
need.

Personally I'd like to see you win. From what I've seen and
heard so far though, (from yourself, Grant, or your few but
passionate supporters) I don't hold out much chance of it
happening.

Just "food for thought", and as they say,...

'only my two cents.'  ;)


John Velez

Long time fighter for Truth


            A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
            www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                 johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
   "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









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              Re: Close Encounters Of The Raelian Kind - Krmelj

From: Milos Krmelj <milos.krmelj@guest.arnes.si>
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 22:43:59 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:53:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounters Of The Raelian Kind - Krmelj

[Non-subscriber Post --ebk]

List,

Slovakia Not Slovenia Close Encounters Of The Raelian Kind

Several days ago I had read about Raelianism. In that report
last word was that they have web page or site also in
'Slovenian'. As I went to that site, I found that it is in
_Slovakian_. There is very big difference in both Slavic
languages, not to mention geography. Slovenia was part of former
Yougoslavia and is now for 10 years inddependent
country.Slovakia was tied wiith Chezs to Chekoslovakia(I am not
certain in right spelling) and is now (after spliting with
Chezs) also independent country.

So countries are totally diffrent, as is language different. And
it happens all the time that people mix both countries.

On the other hand as I follow ufology ( now for more then 35
years), it is known that ideology behind that cult or lunatic
fringe has nothing to do with serious scientific study of ufo
reports o scientific ufology.It is just one of those cults which
are actually doingto that study more harm and additionaly even
more difficult.

Even in our small country (Slovenia is about the size of New
Jersey), we do have those people which are so naive to belive in
such cult ideas (or new religion) and their fictional stories.


Milos Krmelj

Ljubljana, Slovenia
Europe







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                            Re: No Joke - Blanton

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 16:43:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:57:14 -0400
Subject: Re: No Joke - Blanton


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: No Joke
 >Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 23:03:17 +0000

 >Sorry folks, but I don't think the UFO subject or its effects on
 >human beings is funny at all.

 >The evidence is overwhelming that we are being diddled with by
 >Beings From Somewhere (ET or not doesn't really matter) and
 >notwithstanding Bob Young and his ilk (Non potest, ergo non est)
 >we should be at least trying to systematically gather data,
 >critically analyzing it, and subjecting our interpretations to
 >thoroughgoing peer review. That is the only scientific approach.

<snip>

Yes, but the more I learn about the subject, the less sure I am
that I want to know the truth. The implications of manipulation
become unbearable when you realize there is nothing you can do
to prevent it.

Humor might be our only consolation. Humor and Gripple.


Regards,

Terry









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                           Re: No Joke - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:58:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:59:58 -0400
Subject: Re: No Joke - Lehmberg


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: No Joke
 >Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 23:03:17 +0000

 >Sorry folks, but I don't think the UFO subject or its effects on
 >human beings is funny at all.

Serious business regarding the quality of ones life is seldom
funny.

 >The evidence is overwhelming that we are being diddled with by
 >Beings From Somewhere (ET or not doesn't really matter) and
 >notwithstanding Bob Young and his ilk (Non potest, ergo non est)
 >we should be at least trying to systematically gather data,
 >critically analyzing it, and subjecting our interpretations to
 >thoroughgoing peer review. That is the only scientific approach.

Forgetting about Marcus Welby for a moment, I would welcome a
scientific approach in the manner of Hynek, McDonald, or Haines
et al. But that effort has been so torpedoed by Condon, Menzel
and an egregious mainstream that there doesn't seem to be any
relief in sight.

Not trying to be _too_ obnoxious about it, I would raise
consciousness about it any way I can... Like you, I'm taking
considerable heat.

Seems to me we do more infighting than is necessary. We've been
pretty quick to throw down the hurdle in front of ANY proactive
effort.

Scientific bean counting, albeit necessary, still has to be made
to come alive for Joe Sixpack, and Jane Winecooler. Outside of
the attention of the gross population we're in a vacuum.

 >It is only the skeptibunkers like Young who are totally
 >convinced that they already have the answer in advance; the rest
 >of us believe in trying to do science.

... and as good as that science gets it will always be denied by
the mainstream. Pour a little Slick 50 on a slight grade and a
blown GTO can't get the traction to make the crest. It needs a
running start, or someone to throw down a little sand... the guy
shoveling sand doesn't require the science, he just needs to
know that he's shoveling for a good cause... IOW, inclusiveness
and cooperation.

 >What _is_ funny is the human reactions to UFO reports, which
 >gives us a wide range of laughable absurdities all too often
 >displayed here. Some of it distinctly reminds me of the old
 >saying about laughing past the graveyard.

I wrote a poem recently that said exactly that. Are you a fan? <g>.

 >As anyone who knows me can affirm, I have a very lively and
 >active sense of humor about life in general. As far as UFOs are
 >concerned, the funniest thing is the people who declaim and rant
 >and posture constantly while avoiding participation in any
 >serious efforts to ascertain the truth.

I'm ready to do what I can.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.









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                Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 17:18:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 20:36:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -


 >Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 18:08:21 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <shooter@afterimagephoto.tv>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: 31 Aug 2001 14:32:33 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

<snip>

 >>There is an analogy described by often by Daniel Sheehan. It is
 >>of 1,000 or more Jewish concentration camp prisioners being
 >>guarded by 2, 3, or 4 German guards with guns. The prisioners
 >>just sat and waited to be led to the slaughter.

 >Grant, you are way out of line and so is Sheehan. It is one
 >thing for 1000 people to sit passively under the watch of a few
 >guards. It is something else altogether when those guards have
 >their guns pointed at one's children, which was the real
 >leverage used on concentration camp prisoners; act up and your
 >loved ones will be killed right in front of you.

<snip>

Uh?

Wrong picture, Rodge. This is not a Rambo movie.

Re-read your history and Grant is right on the money with this
one. It may not be hollywoodesque, but it is reality.

You confuse observation with moral judgement. It is one thing to
observe that a few nazis could guard 1000 prisoners. It is
another thing to imply cowardliness. And it is another thing to
imply that you have to be a coward to be a coward and that
nothing is worse than a coward.

Grant made an observation. You made the judgement. And the
judgement of the judgement.

Don't be so hasty.

<snip>

 >You and Sheehan
 >make me sick, trying to twist history and devalue the deaths of
 >millions just so you can form a sound bite. It is no wonder that
 >you take the possible death of Ms. Johnstone so casually. You
 >are not human.

<snip>

Puleeze, let's not get into this will you?

If an historical fact doesn't suit you, make your homework and
rectify it.

And then, let's have a long philosophical discussion on subjects
like death, fear, cowardliness, despair, hope abandoned, and
going naked into the cold night.

Rectification: I don't want that discussion. I just want a
little dignity here, not a witch hunt on the back of all the
victims of all the genocides in the last 100 years or so.

Woops, I just tripped over some homeless SOB on my way to the
bank.

Sorry about that Sir... ah, Miss?

Can't quite make it out.


Regards










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                       Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:47:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 20:37:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Clark


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 3 Sep 2001 16:22:47 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:44:28 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>>Date: 2 Sep 2001 12:35:30 -0700
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Lara Johnstone FAQ


Grant,

 >>Grant, you have finally managed to do a fine public service,
 >>here, with your FAQ about Lara Johnstone.

 >>This isn't about UFOs, but about far Left and Internationalist
 >>Anarchist politics (the latter an oxymoron if ever there was
 >>one). Ms. Johnstone and her associates have undoubtedly read
 >>somewhere that UFO related websites are one of the most popular
 >>categories of the world-wide web, after porn.

 >>They are acting accordingly and will monopolize as much UFO
 >>related bandwidth as they can, with the help of their
 >>noviciates, such as Grant Cameron. The message is anti-west,
 >>anti-US, anti-democracy, anti-anything in order to inflate their
 >>egos to the enormous sizes needed to give meaning to their
 >>current miserable lives.

 >Give the a "commie behind every tree" dogma a rest. The cold war
 >ended 10 years ago, and ravings like yours do nothiong but
 >encourage more warfare and more death.

Much as it pains me to agree with Bob Young, he's right about
this, and you're wrong. Your response suggests to me that you
don't pay much attention to what's going on in the world.

The far left (many of whose members, you will be no doubt
shocked to learn, identify themselves as Communists) is an
active, visible presence on many fronts, including the ones your
friend involves herself with. The revived extreme left is much
discussed in political and cultural magazines (it was the cover
story, for example, of The New Republic not long ago), and
mainstream media have covered the issue extensively. Just who do
you think those people are who regularly riot at meetings of the
World Trade Organization? Confused soccer hooligans? Movie
extras? Pranksters? Extraterrestrials?

People who don't like the WTO (or other phenomena of the modern
world) have every right peacefully to express their views, of
course, just as others have every right to disagree with and
criticize them if they choose, without being accused of living
in the Cold War - which is where you apparently reside, since
that is, weirdly, the only frame of reference in which you are
able to place Bob's perceptive observations.


Jerry Clark











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                           Secrecy News - 09/04/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@igc.org>
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 13:59:08 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 20:39:55 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News - 09/04/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
September 4, 2001


**      ANTI-LEAK LAW COULD MAKE CRIMINALS OF MANY
**      SIGMA 16 CLASSIFICATION CATEGORY PENDING


ANTI-LEAK LAW COULD MAKE CRIMINALS OF MANY

The proposal in Congress to make unauthorized disclosures of
classified information a felony could ensnare journalists as
well as many ordinary citizens in a web of criminality.
Henceforward they could be liable for inciting a felony if they
knowingly solicit disclosure of classified information from
anyone who is not officially authorized to disclose it.

This appears to be an unintended consequence of the crudely
drafted "anti-leak" legislation. Senator Richard Shelby, one of
the few identifiable proponents of the pending proposal,
stressed last year that it is unlike Britain's Official Secrets
Act because it would target only the leakers. It "criminalizes
the actions of persons who are charged with protecting
classified information, not those who receive or publish it."

In an initial response to this claim, critics have noted that
journalists would often be the best or only witnesses to the
crime of leaking, and would therefore be subject to
interrogation under subpoena by investigators seeking to
identify their sources.

In fact, however, journalists are far more than witnesses
because they are far more than passive conduits of information.
In the normal course of business, a reporter actively elicits
information.

And if the act of disclosure is a felony, then "incitement" to
disclose may also be a crime. Yet every good national security
reporter, and many a concerned citizen, is engaged in such
"incitement" practically every day.

In criminal law it's called being an "accessory before the
fact," observed former CIA analyst Allen Thomson, a critic of
the pending proposal. He pointed to a law dictionary definition
which explained that "an accessory before the fact is one whose
counsel or instigation leads another to commit a crime."

Thus, contrary to Sen. Shelby's assurance, criminalizing
disclosure of classified information has legal ramifications
that go far beyond the leaker.

The relevant statutes include 18 USC 2 which dictates that:
"Whoever commits an offense against the United States or aids,
abets, counsels, commands, induces or procures its commission,
is punishable as a principal." This means that both the leaker
and the one who elicited the leak could wind up in jail.

Even the passive recipient of a leak could be in trouble if he
doesn't immediately alert the authorities, according to 18 USC 4
("Misprision of felony"): "Whoever, having knowledge of the
actual commission of a felony cognizable by a court of the
United States, conceals and does not as soon as possible make
known the same to some judge or other person in civil or
military authority under the United States, shall be fined under
this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both."

And while formally accredited journalists enjoy some tenuous
consideration from Justice Department investigators (or at least
they did until the recent subpoena of an Associate Press
reporter's phone records), no such consideration is promised to
other Americans who wish to participate in deliberations over
national security policy.

Such concerns are among the many issues that are unlikely to be
satisfactorily addressed in the hasty Senate Intelligence
Committee hearing scheduled for Wednesday September 5 to
consider the anti-leak proposal.


SIGMA 16 CLASSIFICATION CATEGORY PENDING

The Department of Energy and the Department of Defense have
approved the creation of a new classification category called
Sigma 16 that will pertain to particularly sensitive details of
nuclear weapons design. It is expected to come into effect later
this year.

The arrival of Sigma 16 was heralded by an article in the
Washington Post on August 31:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21891-2001Aug30.h
tml

But as if to illustrate the widespread confusion about the
complex inner workings of the classification system, the Post
story got a number of things wrong.

"Technically, Sigma 16 will be a sub-group of sensitive
compartmented information, or SCI," the Post ventured. That is
not correct.

SCI refers to information that is derived from intelligence
sources and methods. It is protected under procedures
established by the Director of Central Intelligence. In
contrast, Sigma 16, like other nuclear weapons design
information, has no intrinsic relation to intelligence and is
protected under the Atomic Energy Act.

"The new [Sigma 16] classification appears to be an outgrowth of
the Wen Ho Lee case," the Post reported. But this is pure
invention. Sigma 16, which would entail increased protection for
certain information, emerged from former Energy Secretary Hazel
O'Leary's "higher fences" initiative back in 1997 and even
earlier.

Currently, information on the design, manufacture and
utilization of nuclear weapons is broken down into 15 so-called
Sigma categories. The present definitions of these categories,
as well as that of the pending Sigma 16, may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/sigmas.html

The December 2000 report of the Joint Policy Group for the
Protection of Nuclear Weapons Design and Use Control
Information, which specifically recommended creation of Sigma
16, may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/joint_report.html


******************************

Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:

     subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:
     http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691








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                Re: Newark Airport Radar Information - Haley

From: Tim Haley <haleyt@foodsci.purdue.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 17:37:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 20:43:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Newark Airport Radar Information - Haley


 >From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 17:11:21 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Dearborn Analysis & Reports On-Line

 >The Dearborn, Michigan Video Analysis and Report are now
 >available online. See the respective links near the bottom of
 >the page at:

 >http://members.home.net/tlemire/dearborn.html

 >I'm always open to sincere constructive criticism.

Todd,

I didn't see anything in your analysis that would address the
possibility of a high flying military jet aircraft flying away
from the camera with a view of its afterburners.


Tim Haley









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                Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 16:08:06 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 20:49:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -


 >From: Roger Evans <shooter@afterimagephoto.tv>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 18:08:21 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: 31 Aug 2001 14:32:33 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >Previously, Grant Cameron wrote:

 >>There is an analogy described by often by Daniel Sheehan. It is
 >>of 1,000 or more Jewish concentration camp prisioners being
 >>guarded by 2, 3, or 4 German guards with guns. The prisioners
 >>just sat and waited to be led to the slaughter.

 >Grant, you are way out of line and so is Sheehan.

Roger,

How is he way out of line?

 >It is one
 >thing for 1000 people to sit passively under the watch of a few
 >guards. It is something else altogether when those guards have
 >their guns pointed at one's children, which was the real
 >leverage used on concentration camp prisoners; act up and your
 >loved ones will be killed right in front of you.

 >You and Sheehan
 >make me sick, trying to twist history and devalue the deaths of
 >millions just so you can form a sound bite.

I'm not sure that is what Grant did. He is entitled to his
opinion and interpretation of events and history, just like
anyone else. Our interpretations of history are often how we put
action into our own lives by emulating or learning from how
others did things that worked or did not.

Clearly it did not work very well for many concentration camp
victims to sit and wait under guard to see if they would
eventually live. Sure many of them did, but how many more would
have if they had fought back like many did in the ghetto's, or
much sooner when Hitler was still coming to power.

If black children in south Africa had sat around and been afraid
of the guns pointed in their faces, or the car-bombs in their
busses, or the teargas in their eyes, or the armoured cars
storming thier little huts, they would probably still be
enslaved! The freedom you take for granted in this once great
country in severe decline heading to fascism, was achieved, not
because people sat and worried about guns pointing at their
children, but because a few brave souls got out and were willing
to give their lives... Much as you don't like the truth of that,
it is what history has taught us... ;-)

 >It is no wonder that
 >you take the possible death of Ms. Johnstone so casually.

Quite to the contrary, Grant Cameron has been one person on this
entire planet called earth who has taken me most seriously and
has bust his balls to not take it casually and do what ever he
can!

 >You are not human.

I am sorry, I have no idea how to respond to such a statement.
Everybody - in my opinion - is human, some of us have just
forgotten what it takes to stand up and fight for truth so
humanity can be free to be human...

Lara Johnstone


+=============================================+
|   Hungerstrike Requesting President Bush    |
|   honor his agreement to tell the American  |
| people the truth about UFO's, by supporting |
| the Disclosure Project witnesses to testify |
|  about their extensive knowledge of UFO's,  |
| advanced energy and propulsion systems, etc.|
+---------------------------------------------+
|       Bush UFO Disclosure Request:          |
|     http://www.bushufodisclosure.org/       |
|           Disclosure Project:               |
|     http://www.disclosureproject.org/       |
+=============================================+








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                  Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 22:15:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 09:17:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert - Maccabee


 >Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 14:55:41 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert


 >>Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 16:44:43 -0400
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Cellular & Infrared Alert
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

<snip>

 >I found the web pages with the pix (thanks).

 >I cannot call any of this "lens effects", as there is a definite
 >if irregular shape visible.

 >Frame 44, (color image on the left) shows something that reminds
 >me of the Japanese lanterns that were something of a fad here in
 >the 1950s. Made of paper, they unfolded, accordion style, from
 >top to bottom. People would put candles or small electric lites
i>nside. They were good yard decorations for lawn parties etc.
 >but the first rains ruined them.

 >Frame 77 (color image, bottom-right) shows a less regular shape,
 >more like a rock or a potato. The entire bottom section is dimly
 >illuminated, much like a lamp inside of a paper or
 >semi-transparent plastic bag. The bright spot in the middle of
 >that lit portion strikes me as the source of the illumination.>

 >None of this is anything like what I had in mind when I
 >mentioned "lens effects", I must agree.>

It appears that there is a small source of reddish light and
that the cellular structure, whatever that might be, radiates
white light. I doubt that this can be explained as a Japanese
Lantern video.









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              CCCRN News: Formation Reports 2001 #8, 9, 10, 11

From: Paul Anderson <cccrn@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:17:06 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 09:18:45 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Formation Reports 2001 #8, 9, 10, 11


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

September 3, 2001


(UPDATE)FORMATION REPORTS 2001 #8, 9, 10, 11 - MIDALE, SASKATCHEWAN


The two new previously reported formations at Midale,
Saskatchewan are actually three, making these the eighth, ninth
and tenth formations reported for 2001 (August 27 / 28). A new
fourth formation has also appeared in the same field as the
first formation (August 30).

Surveys of all four have now been completed by our CCCRN team
both from the air and on the ground. All are in wheat.

First formation is a circle with two surrounding rings
approximately 70 feet across. Circle is counterclockwise lay,
first ring is clockwise and second ring is counterclockwise.

The second formation is a set of two circles close together; the
larger circle has again two surrounding rings, although in this
case each are broken into segments. This circle / rings is about
60 feet across. The smaller companion circle is about 20 feet
across.

Third formation is a combination of a half flattened circle and
a half standing circle, again about 60 feet diameter. The
standing portion of the formation has another smaller flattened
circle inside it. Lay is mostly clockwise except for some
interesting 'weaving' of stalks toward the center portion of the
formation, with bundles of stalks crossing over each other in
'Xs', up to half a dozen layers deep.

The fourth is a long 'backwards 7' with a smaller similar
companion next to it. The main formation is over a hundred feet
long, the smaller one about 18 feet. Lay is flat in main part of
larger formation and in smaller one, but a there is another 'X'
type weaving of the stalks in the 'hook' portion of the longer
formation, similar to formation number three.

No tracks at all were seen going to the first three formations
when initially discovered. A possible human-made track was
observed going to the longer part of the fourth formation,
although it is unclear when or how this occurred. No track was
seen however going to the smaller companion or between the two
parts of the formation which were separated by several feet. It
was noted that the tracks we (CCCRN) made to gain access to the
formations later were very clearly visible, especially from the
air. Such similar tracks were definitely not there when
formations were first seen.

Some camera anomalies were noted while circling the formations
at low level, as well as a sudden video camera battery failure
experienced by a news team from CTV News while in the first
formation. No node deformities or compass deviations, etc. seen.

This makes eleven reported formations now for 2001 and four in
the Midale area (complete field reports, photos and survey
diagrams to follow soon and be added to the web site after I
return to Vancouver; we have also taken excellent video footage
- PA).









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                  Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind -

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:05:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 09:22:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind -


 >Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 15:36:21 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind

 >>From: Franois Parmantier <parcol@club-internet.fr>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind
 >>Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 17:06:52 +0200

 >>>Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 08:03:05 -0700
 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind

 >>French journalists have carried out investigations into the
 >>Raelian movement and his personal story. The last one was
 >>broadcast on a French TV, M6, few months ago. In this report,
 >>his best old-friend testified that Rael confessed to him he
 >>never saw any flying saucer and that he created the whole story.

 >>Best regards to all,

 >>Franois Parmantier

 >Aha! Thanks for the info, I had not heard that.

 >And let me make a prediction: The devoted Raeleans will
 >vigorously deny this confession of Rael, and his old best
 >friend will be portrayed as a tool to some powerful but
 >secret agency in league with:

 >(a) the devil,
 >(b) MJ-12
 >(c) the CIA or French equivalent -or-
 >(d) The McDonald's International conspiracy.

 >Once committed to insanities like Raelism, no amount
 >of sweet reason or logic will dislodge their beliefs.

Larry,

I think you must admit that besides (c) above, there could be
any number of other, sober reasons why this old friend might
have turned against Claude (Rael), and invented a debunking
story; such as:

(1) He doesn't like the thought of cloning humans

(2) he grew jealous of all the attention Rael was getting

(3) he became friends with some French ufologists and learned
that they automatically debunk people who claim to be
contactees, so he could get on good terms with them by debunking
Rael

(4) it dawned on him that Rael's strong advocacy of free love
among the members of his movement would promote the spread of
AIDS, or

(5) he became disenamored of one of the teachings Rael
proclaimed, such as extolling his brand of Judaism at the
expense of Christianity, or something else.....

Without knowing anything about this "old friend," or who he is,
one can only guess at such possible motivations. I wonder if he
is the friend he called "Francois" in his 1986 book, who was
allegedly in on Rael's claimed July 1975 sighting. If so, how
likely is it that Francois would wait 25 years before objecting
to Rael's use of his name in his book, or before confessing his
own involvement in the hoax?

So I would be interested in learning a lot more about this "old
friend," as well as allowing Rael to tell his side of the story,
before jumping to any conclusion about it.


Jim Deardorff










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                Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: 4 Sep 2001 19:56:14 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 09:25:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -


 >Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 18:08:21 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <shooter@afterimagephoto.tv>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: 31 Aug 2001 14:32:33 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >Previously, Grant Cameron wrote:

 >>There is an analogy described by often by Daniel Sheehan. It is
 >>of 1,000 or more Jewish concentration camp prisioners being
 >>guarded by 2, 3, or 4 German guards with guns. The prisioners
 >>just sat and waited to be led to the slaughter.

 >Grant, you are way out of line and so is Sheehan. It is one
 >thing for 1000 people to sit passively under the watch of a few
 >guards. It is something else altogether when those guards have
 >their guns pointed at one's children, which was the real
 >leverage used on concentration camp prisoners; act up and your
 >loved ones will be killed right in front of you. You and Sheehan
 >make me sick, trying to twist history and devalue the deaths of
 >millions just so you can form a sound bite. It is no wonder that
 >you take the possible death of Ms. Johnstone so casually. You
 >are not human.

Roger

I am sorry you missed my point. I hope however that you feel
better after your outburst.

I am in contact with Lara many times a day. She knows I have
only her best interests at heart. Moreover, I will support any
decision she should make in the future.

Grant



"Are you ready for the revolution?"
Lara Johnstone, a California woman who began a Hunger Strike for
Disclosure on July 28th.









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   Sep > Sep 5

             CCCRN News: Formation Reports 2001 #12, 13, 14, 15

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Wed,  5 Sep 2001 02:56:36 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 09:37:15 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Formation Reports 2001 #12, 13, 14, 15


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

September 5, 2001


FORMATION REPORTS 2001 #12, 13, 14, 15 - MIDALE, SASKATCHEWAN AND
MANNING, ALBERTA

Preliminary Report - September 5, 2001

Midale, Saskatchewan
September 1, 2001

Manning, Alberta
August 25, 2001


(These four new reports have been combined as before, to save on
multiple e-mails).

Three more crop formations were found in the Midale region of
Saskatchewan on September 1, making a total of seven so far in
the area. They have been and are still being documnented by the
CCCRN teams both from the air and on the ground. Discovered and
reported by pilot and CCCRN assistant John Erickson and a
visiting news team from Global TV in Calgary, Alberta. The first
and third formations (see below) were definitely not there the
previous day as John had flown over those same fields which were
empty at the time, but were discovered the next morning.

First formation is a large 'celtic cross' type pattern,
basically a circle surrounded by a ring with other standing
clumps of wheat in the flattened areas in various shapes. Lay is
somewhat more haphazard and messy than in the previous
formations, although the design is rather pleasing from the air.
Approximately 60 - 70 feet diameter. A smaller single circle is
nearby, which exhibits a much neater lay pattern. Formation is
just a short distance from an oil pumping station.

Secong formation is a single small circle surrounded by a large
thin ring, again approximately 60 - 70 feet diameter. Formation
had already been combined by farmer, but was still clearly
visible from the air. An interesting note is that this formation
is only a matter of yards from the farmhouse.

The third formation certainly ranks as one of the best yet seen
in this country, a large 'celtic knot' type pattern, again about
70 feet diameter, consisting of three 22 foot plus circles
arranged in an equilateral triangle, two counterclockwise and
one clockwise lay, with a wide band of flattened crop looping
around and between them and crossing over itself in a couple
places. Very flat and beautiful flowing lay on the ground. The
formation is at least two to three hundred feet into the field,
again with no tracks seen leading into it when first found. The
winding circling band also creates three small triangular
standing sections in the middle of the formation. The crop is
younger wheat, which looked less healthy than other nearby
fields, with darker green weeds mixed in it, giving the
formation an unusual textured kind of look, yet the lay was the
best of any of the Midale formations seen so far this year. It
was noted that some small blue flowers on some of the weeds
appeared to be undamaged inside the formation, as was the rest
of the crop.

Also, a formation of circles in grass has been reported by
Gordon Kijek of the Alberta UFO Study Group at Manning, Alberta,
found August 25. A woman reported seeing bright blue flashing
lights descending toward a field, lasting about an hour, in the
area where the circles were later found, although she is not
sure if they are connected. The circle reportedly have standing
centers in them.

This makes fifteen reported formations now for 2001 with seven
in the Midale area alone (complete field reports, photos and
survey diagrams of the new Midale formations to follow soon and
be added to the web site after I return to Vancouver; we have
also again taken excellent video footage; whether the grass
circles at Manning can be visited by any of our teams yet is
uncertain as the location is some distance from any of our
assistants - PA).

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             Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 22:10:02 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 09:40:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - McCoy


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:44:30 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: 31 Aug 2001 14:32:33 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>>From: David Wachenschwanz <ploot@atomiccafe.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure
 >>>Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:15:04 -0500

 ><snip>

 >>There is an analogy described by often by Daniel Sheehan. It is
 >>of 1,000 or more Jewish concentration camp prisioners being
 >>guarded by 2, 3, or 4 German guards with guns. The prisoners
 >>just sat and waited to be led to the slaughter.

 >What the hell are you and Sheehan talking about? Are you nuts?

Just the supposed myth that the Jews simply went slaughter like
so many sheep. Ever hear of the Warsaw ghetto? Also in those
camps were Guard Towers with heavy machine guns, and all other
sort of crowd controlling paraphernalia. Like those heavy
machine guns pointed at your wife, for instance.

My late father-in-law was in the first Armored Unit in Dachau.
Simply put, if these poor folk were led around by the Nazis, it
was because they were starved, beaten, and abused to the point
that they gave up - the "Final Solution" if you will. He was in
Patton's 3rd. in case anyone wants to know.

Stalin did the same thing to his own people, and the farm folk
of the Ukraine, by artificially setting up a 'famine' - then
blaming it on the 'Kulaks' and destroying the last vestge of a
free and efficient farm system. Oh, and about 20 millions died
too.

 >>if we all combine our strengths and talents we can overrun the
 >>evil holding us captive. She recognizes the fact that some people
 >>might have to die to free everyone else.

 >You are, aren't you?  You are bloomin', stark-raving looney.


Well, Bob, its a type of political fight that some see as
combating a great evil. Any subject will do and any receptive
audience, someone cares about the subject of UFO's so much  that
she is going to show that awful "gummit", they will be sorry
just wait and see! Even if the subject isn't even-familiar-to
them.

I would like to see a real, true ,scientific effort to get to
the real issue of UFO truth. I have seem them, at least one a
classic disk, several I can't explain conventionally. I cannot
believe that the folks that are being treated like Cosmic Lab
Animals are somehow being 'enlightened'.

As a hanger-on on the List, and not being anyone in particular
but one who is wanting to find out what is going on, and at
least  able to be semi coherent, I cannot understand the need to
make Political hay  at the expense of the overall effort to
really understand the UFO mystery.

Honest people working hard is what we have and need, but all the
efforts to make a political issue (and a one - sided one at
that) of the UFO cause will be doomed to failure. This is not an
issue to the average sheeple that is going to make one whit  of
difference in their lives, and its hardly worth going to
political war over.

Political efforts to "mainstream" the issue will go for naught,
and I have a question: If this is such an important issue, Why
hasn't the mainstream press and the internet press -ever-grabbed
on this. There is nothing, repeat, nothing there. if there is,
show me, I can handle it.

Oh, and I mean Lara on Larry King kind of exposure.


GT McCoy









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                       Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 01:01:25 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 09:42:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Gates


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 3 Sep 2001 16:22:47 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ

 >Bob

 >Give the a "commie behind every tree" dogma a rest. The cold war
 >ended 10 years ago, and ravings like yours do nothiong but
 >encourage more warfare and more death.

 >Grant


 >"Are you ready for the revolution?"
 >Lara Johnstone, a California woman who began a Hunger Strike for
 >Disclosure on July 28th.

UFO disclosure is just the latest goober on her agenda. From all
appearences, once disclosure becomes less public, she will move
on to the next public protest which will generate publicity.

Cheers,

Robert









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                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 320

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 10:26:09 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 09:44:47 -0400
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 320


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 320 -  20 JULY 2001

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- Daytime Object Filmed in Turin
- Italian Sightings in July
- Launching of the Hessdalen Mission
- UFO TV Movies


Daytime Object Filmed in Turin

On Saturday, 7 July, various people observed, in plain daylight,
the maneuvers of at least seven oval-shaped white objects in the
skies over Turin.

Starting at around 6 p.m., a housewife also succeeded at filming
them at various stages during an approximate half-hour time
period, while they were passing back and forth over her house,
and she then alerted the Carabinieri, the local TV stations and,
finally, the Italian Center for UFO Studies. Investigations and
the examination of the videofilm are underway.

[Investigation by Matteo Leone]


Italian Sightings in July

Sightings of UFO phenomena continue throughout Italy, at the
same pace as June.

During the first fifteen days of July, in fact, there were 25
reports received or gathered by the Italian Center for UFO
Studies, compared with the 54 of the preceding month.

Aside from a photographic case, a film and an isolated humanoid,
the other cases were of nocturnal lights, for the most part, and
only one out of every six was a daylight sighting.

An initial list of sightings for July was circulated by Giuseppe
Stilo, who is in the process of monitoring for the CISU, in
real-time, the sightings of this summertime mini-flap.

[Reported by Giuseppe Stilo]


Launching of Hessdalen Mission

Tuesday, 24 July, will mark the launching in Norway of the new
mission organized by the Italian Committee for Project Hessdalen
for the installation of  various detection tools in the valley
where strange and luminous aerial phenomena have been observed
and studied for almost twenty years.

The expedition, comprising Italian scientists and technicians,
was entirely organized and financed by the committee, a private
center formed in 2000 for this purpose, and it will be followed
by another group of technicians from the CNR (National Research
Council), which last year installed some equipment in Hessdalen
in order to detect and analyze the electromagnetic disturbances
associated with the strange phenomena, and who will return to
the site next month under the banner of  "Project EMBLA"
organized by the CNR Bologna Institute of Radioastronomy and
Ostfold College of Norway.

[Press release by the Italian Committee for Project Hessdalen;
collaboration by Renzo Cabassi]


UFO TV Movies

A UFO episode during each one of the first two evenings of the
new series from the TV movie 'Seven Days', airing Sunday
evenings on Raidue.

Area 51, the Roswell Case, alien bodies preserved for 50 years,
Chemical Element 115, alien abductions, animal mutilations,
black helicopters, reverse engineering on crashed flying discs,
ufologists, the "revelators," the Cover-Up: almost nothing is
overlooked that involves the various themes which have been at
the center of the American UFO saga over the last ten years, in
the context of a secret military group which has the capability
of traveling through time.

[Reported by Paolo Toselli]

- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by  Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website at
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di informazione
ufologica", published by the Italian Center for UFO Studies,
registered at Tribunale di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.

Director: Giovanni Settimo.
Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso Vittorio
Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2001  by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing
(just send a blank message to:
cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)
The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org








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                      Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 06:40:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 09:47:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Lehmberg


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 20:21:20 -0400

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:54:50 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>>Date: 2 Sep 2001 12:35:30 -0700
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Lara Johnstone FAQ

 ><snip>

 >>>Have I ever been arrested for civil disobedience?

 >>>Yes, three times

 >>>- 1) In Cumbria, England with Greenpeace, protesting against
 >>>Sellafield, a Nuclear power station as heavily contaminated with
 >>>radioactivity as Chernobyl;

 >>This, ladies & gentlemen, should give you a good indication of
 >>the accuracy and credibility of Johnstone and company.

 >Don't activists have the same rights as debunkers?

No - having a conscience, an open mind, and a desire for a level
playing field are all immediately disqualifying. There is no
need for due process, character can be attacked with impunity,
and the status quo maintained at any cost. Her very rational
concern is proof of her cognitive infidelity, her compassion is
evidence of her emotional infirmity, and her courage is
descriptive of her demonstrated insanity. Activists are, by
definition, crazy, and can therefore be discounted out of hand,
with prejudice, and with convenient arbitrariness.

 >Talking about the straw and the beam...

...or the dust mote and the mountain. Perhaps it is enevitable
that some are born to merely mouth breath.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.









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                       Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:40:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 09:49:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Rimmer


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 20:21:20 -0400

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:54:50 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>>Date: 2 Sep 2001 12:35:30 -0700
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Lara Johnstone FAQ

 ><snip>

 >>>Have I ever been arrested for civil disobedience?

 >>>Yes, three times

 >>>- 1) In Cumbria, England with Greenpeace, protesting against
 >>>Sellafield, a Nuclear power station as heavily contaminated with
 >>>radioactivity as Chernobyl;

 >>This, ladies & gentlemen, should give you a good indication of
 >>the accuracy and credibility of Johnstone and company.

 >Don't activists have the same rights as debunkers?

 >Talking about the straw and the beam...

I'm not sure what Mr Salvaille means here (but that's nothing
new). What Bob Young meant was that anyone who thinks there is
any comparison at all between Sellafield and Chernobyl is
talking through their hat, and if they can get that so wrong,
you must doubt their credibility about other matters. It
suggests that Ms Johnstone is the sort of 'activist' who goes
firing off with all barrels before considering the facts.

(Just to ward off any pedants: yes, all nuclear power stations
are highly radioactive on the inside of the reactors, it's what
happens on the outside that's important!)


John Rimmer

Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk









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                  Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind -

From: Franois Parmantier <parcol@club-internet.fr>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:15:19 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 09:52:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind -


 >Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 15:36:21 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind

 >>From: Franois Parmantier <parcol@club-internet.fr>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind
 >>Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 17:06:52 +0200

 >>>Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 08:03:05 -0700
 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind

 >>>>From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>>Source: The Village Voice

 >>>>http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0135/segall2.php

 >>>>Week of August 29 - September 4, 2001

 >>>>Close Encounter of the Raelian Kind
 >>>>by Rebecca Segall

 >>>>Raelianism was founded 30 years ago in France by auto-racing
 >>>>reporter Claude Vorilhon. Now known as "Rael", he claims that in
 >>>>1973 he was approached by a four-foot-tall alien who identified
 >>>>himself as one of the "Elohim" - humanoid, all-powerful
 >>>>extraterrestrials who had created life on Earth through cloning.
 >>>>Vorilhon was the chosen son. His single mother had been
 >>>>artificially inseminated by one of their number, and he was to
 >>>>prepare earthlings for the Elohim's return.

 >>>Didn't some large religion [snip] ... start out
 >>>with precisely the same silly rap?

 ><snip>

 >>>Frankly, this sounds like a classic French con-artist;
 >>>commercially tapping the un-met religious needs of thousands
 >>>if not millions; [snip -LH]

 >>We, French, feel deeply sorry and apologize for exporting l
 >>Rael to North America.

 >Oh heck. After exporting McDonald's Hamburgers to France,
 >I suppose we had it coming.

Sure. But Ronnie is a terrible cooker, not a religious
Sergeant-Major.

 >>Claude Vorilhon is very well known in France, and not only among
 >>ufologists, as a dangerous person and his group as a very well
 >>organized and profitable company. Please note that he claims to
 >>be the fastest religious leader thanks to his disciples who fund
 >>the raelian racing car team. Unfortunately, the reality is not
 >>so funny and his cloning project is worrying. So there is a need
 >>to spread informations about him

 >Cloning requires science, not religion. I don't expect
 >much to come of it. -LH

I hope you're right. But Rael describes themselves as a
scientific movement with many atheist adherents. And they don't
just pray for cloning human babies they also put means. The
cloning project is being led by a French-born biochimist,
Christine Boisselier, who claims to run four scientific teams.
But hopefully, it seems they don't have the expertise to achieve
success and the whole project could be first a good way to draw
attention. However, the America's Food and Drug Administration
is monitoring them and it's a good thing.

 >>French journalists have carried out investigations into the.
 >>Raelian movement and his personal story. The last one was
 >>broadcast on a French TV, M6, few months ago. In this report,
 >>his best old-friend testified that Rael confessed to him he
 >>never saw any flying saucer and that he created the whole
 >story.

 >Aha! Thanks for the info, I had not heard that.

 >And let me make a prediction: The devoted Raeleans will
 >vigorously deny this confession of Rael, and his old best
 >friend will be portrayed as a tool to some powerful but
 >secret agency in league with:

 >(a) the devil,
 >(b) MJ-12
 >(c) the CIA or French equivalent -or-
 >(d) The McDonald's International conspiracy.


(e) The Inspector Clousaeu connection

 >Once committed to insanities like Raelism, no amount
 >of sweet reason or logic will dislodge their beliefs.

 >But hey! This is religion. Its not _supposed_ to
 >make any sense.

Too bad because it must be stressed that Raelians are neither
just millenarian fantaisists nor genuine prophets of the New
Age. The so called physical and spiritual liberation through
sexual expression is sometimes applied to teenagers. 4 raelians
have been sentenced in France (March 2001) for sexual abuses on
5 girls 15 years old.

 >Best wishes

 >- Larry Hatch

 >PS: McDonalds here puts _both_ mustard and ketchup
 >on the same burger, every single time. A conspiracy?
 >its more like a proven formula. Amazing.

Could it be also a good mean to disgust Rael's cosmic friends,
and father :-)), the Elohim, and to keep them away from Earth ?


Best regards

Franois Parmantier











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                               Slowly We Turn

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 08:22:54 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 09:55:09 -0400
Subject: Slowly We Turn


"Slowly I turned. Inch by inch. Step by step."

One of the more famous Vaudevillian villains used to say, as he
stalked poor Lou Costello, just before boffing the beleaguered
boy on his noggin. A classic routine. Even more famous than
"Who's on First?" A game that comedy actors play. All triggered
by some innocent word, which when uttered sets the villain off
on his journey into absurdity.

Seemingly innocent little act. Except when you apply it to real
life, eh? When you make comparisons to reality, which is not
what they feed you in the media or even here, by some, on
UpDates. You say an innocent word. Make an innocent remark and
"Slowly I turned." Then comes the stalk, the rant and finally,
the attack. And when the attack comes, it is most merciless.
Completely without any regard for collateral damage. People
begin falling like trees in Tanguska. All 'round the drop zone,
overpressure and brimstone create complete and utter destruction
and chaos.

Slowly I turned. Inch by inch. Step by step.

UFOlogy is a lot like that. Whether a hunger strike or someone's
misjudgment, it oft seems to this lister that there lurks more
than the disabled alien out there, waiting to probe. As if the
probed like to probe others in retribution for having been
probed. "Here, let me stick this in... now... see how it feels?
Slowly I turned!"

I wonder why it is that emotion reigns supreme in this issue as
much as it does? Why it is that we must feel compelled to attack
each other, not argue or debate but stone? Perhaps it is because
we cannot abide ourselves. That we cannot muster enough respect
for ourselves, individually, to be able to muster for anyone
else, or their opinion.

Lara - is a prime example of this "Slowly I turned" mentality. And
frankly, it sucks. Not Lara. Not her politics, which is her business,
but the name calling, UFO McCarthyism. Right here. In beautiful
downtown UpDates.

May the Schwartz be with us.

Mortellaro






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                       Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 08:32:09 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 09:57:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Randle


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 2 Sep 2001 12:35:30 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Lara Johnstone FAQ

 >Source: http://www.bushufodisclosure.org/menucontact.html

 >Frequently Asked Questions about Lara Johnstone:

<snip>

 >Do I believe in UFOs?

 >I have no idea whether UFOs/ETs exist or not. My hungerstrike
 >-- for me -- is NOT ABOUT UFOs, but about FREEDOM OF SPEECH. It
 >is about supporting men and women, who have come forward at
 >great risk to themselves, to their reputations, to their
 >families, who say they have evidence that massively impacts
 >millions of lives, and which they wish to share.

 >My hungerstrike is to support people to be heard, to get their
 >day infront of Congress. If these were members of the KKK, or
 >the KGB, or from Osama Bin Laden's friends, or prison guards, or
 >Chinese sweatshop workers, or human rights workers in Colombia,
 >or prisoners in California, or disabled, or gays or children
 >being exploited in wherever! To me it is not about whether what
 >they have to say is about something I 'believe in' or not, or
 >whether it suits my 'agenda', or how it affects my 'reputation'.

 >It is about giving EVERYBODY the right to stand up and talk --
 >if they wish to -- and have evidence to substantiate what they
 >are trying to say. Maybe when I hear what these witnesses have
 >to say, and see the evidence, I may be able to better answer
 >whether I 'believe' in UFOs or not. And maybe not. Until then,
 >I have no idea! ;-)

 >However, from what I have heard of the Disclosure Project
 >witnesses testimony, in the Disclosure Book, video and on their
 >website. I have to say that I do NOT think these witnesses are
 >lying, and I am very disturbed by their testimony, and I think
 >it is very important that we find out as soon as possible how
 >much they know. If what they say is true, then we had better pay
 >attention and pay attention very quickly.

I think that here we find the flaw in the argument. Lara
Johnstone doesn't think these witnesses are lying, but the
troubling fact is that, at the very least, four of them are.
They have made contradictory statements, the documentation does
not support their claims, and they have been caught in the past
fudging the truth.

The problem here is the "if" part of the statement... _If_ what
they say is the truth... we have good evidence that it is not
and if it is not, then the conclusions are not logical.

While it is true that we have freedom of speech, it should also
be remembered that the speech does not have to be true to be
heard (insert your own examples here from either side of the
political aisle, science, history, criminal defense...).

What we must do is determine how much of the Project Disclosure
testimony is true and expose the rest of it.


KRandle









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                Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 08:33:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 10:03:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -


 >Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 21:12:51 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <shooter@afterimagephoto.tv>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:58:25 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

 >Previously, Alfred wrote:

 >>I don't want an answer that I want to hear, Mr. E.! I want the
 >>truth _you_ can't handle.

 >You _claim_ that the life of you and your own family is worth
 >more than the information she seeks.

It's obvious that you have a real problem with scale, Mr. Evans.
You can add that to your growing list of projected inadequacies.
I've provided ample demonstration that I am willing to stand by
my convictions, pay real world prices in real world ways. Unlike
you, a sneering dilettante, an convenient buff, and a strident
negativist, I've put my money where my mouth is. All you ever do
is carp! Feel free to rearrange the letters, a little, in that
last capitalized word.

 >Yet, _she_ gets closer to
 >death with each passing day that you intellectualize about her
 >plight over dinner with friends.

You don't get it do you, bunky. In metaphor, _you're_ her
plight. You're the problem. You're the reason. You're the fault.
You're the provenance. You're the provider of the cross she says
she's willing to die on. You're the reason she suffers, at all.
Why? Because you insist on putting the focus on what she's
doing, and not on why she's doing it. Moreover, don't project on
me what you're, likely, a lot more guilty of than I could EVER
be. I resent your implication and dismiss it, confidently, out
of hand.

 >Maybe this time next month or
 >so, you can have breakfast with your UFO buddies and talk about
 >how sad her passing was and how much she'll be missed by the UFO
 >community... please pass the biscuits, thank you.

Paint this any way you want to, Mr. Evans, you only demonstrate
your own lack of real compassion and display your general social
fecklessness . It's not about her at all, it's what motivates
her. Again, she's not the problem, the problem is the problem.
I'm not the villain in this piece. I have to give that
responsibility to you and "dubya"! Enjoy your own breakfast.
Don't fret about mine.

 >Here is the truth _you_ can't handle: She's losing weight and
 >you're not.

...And? That's not a very clever dodge, Mr. Evans. That's a
distraction! What's that supposed to mean, Mr. Evans? Are you
pointing out that I don't have her courage? Do you imply that I
don't have her COMPASSION? Would you suggest that I don't have
her determination, her drive, or her clarity of purpose? Right
on all counts, Mr. Evans! So? So!!!

We're not _talking_ about me, Mr. Evans. We are talking about a
woman of rumored sound mind that has more of those qualities
than me, Mr. Evans. Certainly more than you. She really frosts
your cookie doesn't she?

Why do you think that is? I think I know why. We can explore
that here if you like...

 >Talk is cheap Alfred, and yours is the cheapest I've ever seen.

I'll tell you what's cheap, Mr. Evans... "cheap" is contrived
concern and easy compassion worn like an obfuscating cloak to
cover their own lack of same. _That's_ cheap.

 >Like you, I believe in ET life.

I'll be throwing the BS card down on this too obvious loss
leader, Mr. Evans. Along with this alleged belief you are too
willing to except the cultural business as usual that has
precipitated this mess in the first place. Your "beliefs" are
suspect.

 >Unlike you, I believe in human
 >life more

What whining and off task dross is this? And your compassion is
touching given that you likely don't have a thought for the
25,000 children that starve to death on this planet every day as
a result of your lack of the very compassion that you too easily
trot out here.

 >and hers shouldn't be wasted just to satisfy your
 >curiosity about a truth that the government will never fess up
 >to.

Yeah -- that's my fault I suppose...

Face it Mr. Evans. Johnstone reminds you too much of your own
intellectual indolence and courage deficit. She's so far up your
nose that you can feel her knees on your top lip! You're
distressed because she has the stones to draw the line in the
sand that you won't, can't, or didn't. Get used to it. Her line
is just, and your lack of moral support for it is likely not.

 >To me, she's a person. To you, she's just a means to an end.

Disapproved! Resubmit in 30 days for final disapproval. She's an
embarrassment to you, Mr. Evans! To me she is a person... a
person of courage and someone to be admired.

 >And what if her ploy doesn't work?

I think we all agree that it's not likely to _work_, Mr. Evans.
The sociopathic bunch you front for assuredly does not have the
concern and compassion you only SAY you have... but her gesture
raises the pressure a little bit more, regardless.

 >Who will you line up next to
 >take the fall?

I would hope that _you_ would! It would give me an excuse to
think better of you. For _my_ part, I can't start something that
I don't think I have the juice to finish.

 >A member of _your_ family, maybe? How much was
 >this week's grocery bill, by the way?

That's it! Point a distracting finger at me, like _I'm_, the
problem, blithely oblivious to the three you point back at
yourself.

 >Seems like the John Ford restoration fund just missed an
 >opportunity for a contribution and _you_ missed an opportunity
 >to put your money where your food filled mouth is.

It's not _my_ mouth, Mr. Evans, and I've lost the money, maybe
60,000 dollars after taxes for putting mouth and money in the
same nexus. And as to John Ford? He's somebody _else_ with more
guts in a nail paring than what you evidently drag daily to your
_own_ breakfast table. Don't throw him up to me again or I'll
embarrass you further.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.









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   Sep > Sep 5

                             Re: No Joke - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:41:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 10:06:06 -0400
Subject: Re: No Joke - Velez


 >Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 16:43:21 -0400
 >From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: No Joke

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: No Joke
 >>Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 23:03:17 +0000

 >>Sorry folks, but I don't think the UFO subject or its effects on
 >>human beings is funny at all.

 >>The evidence is overwhelming that we are being diddled with by
 >>Beings From Somewhere (ET or not doesn't really matter) and
 >>notwithstanding Bob Young and his ilk (Non potest, ergo non est)
 >>we should be at least trying to systematically gather data,
 >>critically analyzing it, and subjecting our interpretations to
 >>thoroughgoing peer review. That is the only scientific approach.

Hi Dick, Terry, All,

Terry writes:

 ><snip>

 >Yes, but the more I learn about the subject, the less sure I am
 >that I want to know the truth. The implications of manipulation
 >become unbearable when you realize there is nothing you can do
 >to prevent it.

Speaking as an abductee:

If you multiply that 'feeling' of helplessness by a factor of a
hundred you begin to understand the challenge that abductees
find themselves confronted with. You have the luxury of turning
it off inside your own head. Those who have actually experienced
it have to -live with- the reality and memory of those
encounters. They have no choice but to face it square on and
deal with it. (And I mean 'deal for real'. Life or death, fight
or flight type stuff. On the most elemental and primal human
levels.)

Many of us are parents. Our 'fears' are compounded by worry for
the safety and welfare of our children as well. In many ways it
becomes (for the abductee) a matter of pure and simple survival.
After all, if we don't fight to keep ourselves mentally intact
we will be unable to be there for ourself or our children. We
have to make room for this impossible scenario within our own
internal ecosystem, and expand our world view somehow to include
the phenomena, or face the prospect of living in perpetual fear
and paranoia that it will happen again. And every abductee knows
that it _will_ happen again.

I cannot speak for anybody else, but for me, it took a Herculean
effort to overcome my own fears and tendency to obsess over
this. To learn how to focus my mind/attention on my own life.
(my wife, children, family, friends, career etc.) Otherwise, the
little Grey bastards would become a sanity and life robbing
obsession. It became an urgent matter of taking control of my
own life, and _consciously_ choosing to live my life - my way.
The alternative to 'coming to grips with it' is both
unacceptable and unthinkable for me.

Who wants to end up in a perpetual state of sleep deprivation,
sitting by the bolted shut front door every night in a terry
cloth robe, babbling to oneself, with a bottle of Capt. Jack in
one hand, and a loaded shotgun in the other. What method of
'dealing with it' would you choose?

I had to choose between doing all the inner work involved in
conquering/overcoming my own primal fears, or losing myself to
what is tantamount to total insanity. Instead of ridiculing us,
non-abductees should be using "abductees" as a road map, an
example, of how one comes to grips with the impossible. We have
survived. Some of us have fared better than others but we have
all mentally, emotionally, and physically survived nonetheless.
People should be studying us, pumping us for information, and
_learning_ from us. The varied and unique ways that each of us
have found to integrate and deal with this 'new/ old' reality is
something that others need to emulate not laugh at.

 >Humor might be our only consolation. Humor and Gripple.

Laughing past the Cemetery is how Dick phrased it in his
original I believe. There are times when humor/laughter has its
place and times when it is simply inappropriate. Each person has
to learn how to judge for themselves when it is or it isn't.
Humor is a great therapeutic tool when used appropriately. There
are some things in life however that just aren't all that funny.
For me UFO/alien abduction is one of them.


Regards,

John Velez, Abductee









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                     Bainbridge, Ohio Woman Tapes 'UFO'

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 10:12:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 10:12:25 -0400
Subject: Bainbridge, Ohio Woman Tapes 'UFO'



From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

Source: WKYC-TV - Channel 3 Cleveland

http://www.wkyc.com/news/morelocal/bainbridge/010904ufosighting.ssf

Bainbridge Woman Tapes 'UFO'

September 4, 2001

BAINBRIDGE, Ohio -- Is it an alien invasion or just an optical
illusion? A Bainbridge woman is searching for answers.

On two separate occasions, Heather Rice of Bainbridge says she
saw, and taped, a UFO.

[image]

The first time was August 29th, while getting her daughter ready
for school. The second time was the very next morning.

Rice says she saw a "mother ship" and four others surrounding
it, flying in a triangular pattern.

[image]

"It looked like a circular thing with windows with the red and
green lights shining through," Rice says. "It was spinning
fast."

Rice took her videotape to Bainbridge Police.

"We can take a copy of her tape and then turn it over to NASA if
they want they can take a look at it," Lt. Jon Bokovitz says.
"They've enhanced some video for us in the past. Maybe they can
determine what it was."

No other sightings have been reported to Bainbridge police.










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                Re: Newark Airport Radar Information - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 11:16:02 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 10:23:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Newark Airport Radar Information - Ledger


 >From: Tim Haley <haleyt@foodsci.purdue.edu>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Newark Airport Radar Information
 >Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 17:37:23 -0500

 >>From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 17:11:21 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Dearborn Analysis & Reports On-Line

 >>The Dearborn, Michigan Video Analysis and Report are now
 >>available online. See the respective links near the bottom of
 >>the page at:

 >>http://members.home.net/tlemire/dearborn.html

 >>I'm always open to sincere constructive criticism.

 >I didn't see anything in your analysis that would address the
 >possibility of a high flying military jet aircraft flying away
 >from the camera with a view of its afterburners.


There again whether in or above the zone the aircraft would
known to the controllers-unless during wartime conditions. The
top of the CZ there is 9 and 13,000 feet.

Also, consider what you are suggesting - that some half-dozen
fighter aircraft are in afterburners therefore they are looking
for speed and power and flying very fast - unlike the lights
which were moving quite slowly.

Remember that multi-engined aircraft such as the old B-52 or
transport aircraft don't have afterburners.

Its a bit of a grasp at straws to suggest afterburners as a
possible explanation for the lights. But, by raising this idea
you've eliminated it.


Don Ledger









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                   Re: Newark Airport Radar Information -

From: David Wachenschwanz <ploot@atomiccafe.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:11:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 13:28:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Newark Airport Radar Information -


 >Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 11:16:02 -0300
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Newark Airport Radar Information

 >>From: Tim Haley <haleyt@foodsci.purdue.edu>
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Newark Airport Radar Information
 >>Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 17:37:23 -0500

 >>>From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >>>Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 17:11:21 -0400
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Dearborn Analysis & Reports On-Line

 >>>The Dearborn, Michigan Video Analysis and Report are now
 >>>available online. See the respective links near the bottom of
 >>>the page at:

 >>>http://members.home.net/tlemire/dearborn.html

 >>>I'm always open to sincere constructive criticism.

 >>I didn't see anything in your analysis that would address the
 >>possibility of a high flying military jet aircraft flying away
 >>from the camera with a view of its afterburners.

 >There again whether in or above the zone the aircraft would
 >known to the controllers-unless during wartime conditions. The
 >top of the CZ there is 9 and 13,000 feet.

 >Also, consider what you are suggesting - that some half-dozen
 >fighter aircraft are in afterburners therefore they are looking
 >for speed and power and flying very fast - unlike the lights
 >which were moving quite slowly.

 >Remember that multi-engined aircraft such as the old B-52 or
 >transport aircraft don't have afterburners.

 >Its a bit of a grasp at straws to suggest afterburners as a
 >possible explanation for the lights. But, by raising this idea
 >you've eliminated it.


Just a point in fact: The military does have in its inventory
multiengine (jet) aircraft with afterburners, i.e.: F-4 Phantom,
F-15 Eagle, SR-71 Blackbird, etc, etc.

David E Wachenschwanz








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             Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Evans

From: Evans <shooter@afterimagephoto.tv>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 10:16:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 13:31:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Evans


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 08:33:46 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

 >>Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 21:12:51 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans <shooter@afterimagephoto.tv>
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>>Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:58:25 -0500
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -


Alfred wrote:

 >It's obvious that you have a real problem with scale, Mr. Evans.
 >You can add that to your growing list of projected inadequacies.
 >I've provided ample demonstration that I am willing to stand by
 >my convictions, pay real world prices in real world ways.

What ample demonstration? You said, very clearly, that your life
and the life of your family are worth more than the information
Laura seeks. Don't make the boasts. Let her off the hook! Do it,
like the woman you admire so much is doing. But then, there's a
couple of reasons you won't, aren't there? I point to the
following:

I asked:

 >>And what if her ploy doesn't work?

You replied:

 >I think we all agree that it's not likely to _work_, Mr. Evans.

This is, of course, the _real_ reason you don't emulate her
task. You know it's all for nothing. More importantly, if _you_
did it and died for the knowledge it acquired (if any) then you
wouldn't get to be around to see what the big surprise is, now
would you?

That explains the answer to my other question where I asked:

 >>Who will you line up next to
 >>take the fall?

You replied:

 >I would hope that _you_ would!

Anyone but Alfred, right?

 >For _my_ part, I can't start something that
 >I don't think I have the juice to finish.

So, you don't have the nads to do it but feel free to criticize
others that won't do it, either. Does it matter that I also see
the foolishness of the act as a reason for not copying her
behavior? You yourself said above that it is more likely not to
work. But you are willing to stand by and watch another human
being die just in case it might. And, as I asked before but you
never answered, how will you know if the government is telling
the truth, anyway? After all, I stated plainly:

 >>Like you, I believe in ET life.

and you replied, incredulously:

 >I'll be throwing the BS card down on this too obvious loss
 >leader, Mr. Evans. Along with this alleged belief you are too
 >willing to except the cultural business as usual that has
 >precipitated this mess in the first place. Your "beliefs" are
 >suspect.

Typical. Why don't you check the archives, Alfred? You'll find
that I have consistently presented a pro-ET life position
despite my disbelief of some of the evidence presented. I take
issue with some of the personalities involved in the debate on
ET life, but not the issue behind it. So, here you are, faced
with the fact of the matter and you don't know whether to
believe me or not.

Thanks for proving my point.

If you can't judge my sincerity, then how in the world can you
judge the government's even _if_ they finally gave an answer to
the ET question, something that you freely admit they probably
won't do?

Regarding this load of manure:

 >What whining and off task dross is this? And your compassion is
 >touching given that you likely don't have a thought for the
 >25,000 children that starve to death on this planet every day as
 >a result of your lack of the very compassion that you too easily
 >trot out here.

Better put that stick back in the bag, my friend. I have been
involved in homeless shelters and feed the children programs my
entire life. Your typical tactic of trying to bend the
accusatorial finger and dodge the issue won't work here. I have
gone hungry plenty of times so that someone I saw on the street
could have my meal.

Here's the odd thing about this whole affair, dude: It is
clearly obvious that _you_ don't need convincing. You already
believe that ET life exists, just as I do (whether you believe
me or not isn't important). Therefore, the only purpose
associated with this woman's act is to justify your beliefs! I
don't need her to risk death or die just to make me feel better
about my position. So, no matter how you want to paint the
picture, Alfred, the fact is that you are willing to stand by
and let (indeed, encourage) this woman to commit suicide for the
sole purpose of satisfying your curiosity about something that
you are already convinced of and that you admit the government
will not respond to and that you won't be able to judge as being
accurate!

You're a poet, Alfred. What rhymes with "obtuse", anyway? I'll
give you a hint: It begins with an "A".

You can have the last word on this, Alfie. I'm not going to make
this a protracted debate that lasts longer than Ms. Johnstone.
Despite your illogical and ever mounting justifications, if she
keeps this up, she'll die and you won't be any more sure about
things then than you already are now. So what's the point?


Roger Evans








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                 Re: Site Gives Scientists Outlet... - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:35:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 13:34:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Site Gives Scientists Outlet... - Velez


 >From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >Source: The Sacramento Bee

 >http://www.sacbee.com/news/news/local02_20010904.html

 >Web site gives scientists outlet for explaining the
 >unexplainable

 >By Edie Lau
 >Bee Science Writer
 >(Published Sept. 4, 2001)

Hello All,

<snip>

 >"Speaking just as a psychologist now," he added, "if you have a
 >really significant experience and you feel you can't tell
 >anybody about it because you think it's weird, repressing (it)
 >is not good for your mental health."

And thanks to Errol, this List, and all of you who have read and
listened patiently to all the posts I have contributed over the
years, I for one don't have to "repress" anything!  ;)

God bless you all for 'being there.'

In good mental health, and the *"purity and essence of our
precious bodily fluids,"....

I remain,

John Velez  :)

*I mentioned 'General Ripper' in an earlier post so I thought
I'd quote him. ;)









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                            Re: No Joke - Blanton

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 12:43:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 13:36:11 -0400
Subject: Re: No Joke - Blanton


 >Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:41:12 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: No Joke

 >Speaking as an abductee:

 >If you multiply that 'feeling' of helplessness by a factor of a
 >hundred you begin to understand the challenge that abductees
 >find themselves confronted with. You have the luxury of turning
 >it off inside your own head. Those who have actually experienced
 >it have to -live with- the reality and memory of those
 >encounters.

<snip>

I guess my fear is that those of you who can remember your
experiences are the unfortunate ones. And that the rest of us
suffer from the "blue pill syndrome" a la 'The Matrix'.

There once was a religion called Gnosis whose members sought
illumination. The illuminatus saw beyond the self inflicted
reality screen of the non-adept. We have been invaded and
conquered at that level but few are enlightened enough to see
it. Like, the game is already over and we didn't have enough
sense (awareness) to play. The results of conquest are manifest
in reality in unforeseen ways: addiction, hate, cruelty, apathy,
loss of faith.

Gee, I sound like a 60's Quinn/Martin production. ;-)

Ah, there's that humor to the rescue again.

Now, I need to get a grip(ple).

Regards,

Terry









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                             Re: No Joke - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:51:52 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 13:38:14 -0400
Subject: Re: No Joke - Young


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: No Joke
 >Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 23:03:17 +0000

 >Sorry folks, but I don't think the UFO subject or its effects on
 >human beings is funny at all.

Richard:

Nor do I, for the most part.

 >The evidence is overwhelming that we are being diddled with by
 >Beings From Somewhere (ET or not doesn't really matter) and
 >notwithstanding Bob Young and his ilk (Non potest, ergo non est)
 >we should be at least trying to systematically gather data,
 >critically analyzing it, and subjecting our interpretations to
 >thoroughgoing peer review.

When is the last time that has happened? MUFON meetings or when
you met with your publisher to discuss your advance?

 >That is the only scientific approach.

 >It is only the skeptibunkers like Young who are totally
 >convinced that they already have the answer in advance; the rest
 >of us believe in trying to do science.

The difference between our beliefs, Dick, is that you think that
there is _an answer_, that you have it, and it is Beings of some
sort, but I think that like most other human affairs there are
actually a lot of little answers and probably even some leftover
questions that folks a lot smarter or luckier than us might some
day figure out. And if they don't it's probably not going to be
an Earthshaking oversight, in any case.

 >What _is_ funny is the human reactions to UFO reports, which
 >gives us a wide range of laughable absurdities all too often
 >displayed here. Some of it distinctly reminds me of the old
 >saying about laughing past the graveyard.

What seems to have gotten you is that you may have suspected
that there were some hee-hees and snorts coming from the
cubicles of The Ilk over yet another human saucer fiasco.

Another problem, Dick, seems to be that you have a problem
laughing at yourself.


Bob Young

On board the DeathStar of The Ilk

---------------

"I find your lack of faith disturbing." - D. Vader









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                       Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:51:54 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 13:40:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Young


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 3 Sep 2001 16:22:47 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:44:28 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >>This isn't about UFOs, but about far Left and Internationalist
 >>Anarchist politics

<snip>

 >Give the a "commie behind every tree" dogma a rest.

Grant:

Ooh, hit a sensitive spot, did I?

Please read my post again, carefully this time. I don't believe
that you will find "commies" mentioned anyplace, or do you know
something about anarchists that I don't?

 >The cold war ended 10 years ago

Twelve, but then if every nuclear plant is as radioactive as
Chernoble, who's counting?  Even though we're now in the post-
deconstructionist 21st Century, we still have the anti-s this,
and the anti-s that.  Read your own list.

You even list the "Radical Honesty Movement".

Gol-l-l-y, What's _that_ about?


Clear skies,

Bob Young

                     -------------

"In Cumbria, England, Sellafield, a Nuclear power station
as heavily contaminated with radioactivity as Chernobyl."
  - -  Lara Johnstone and Grant Cameron








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               Re: Bainbridge, Ohio Woman Tapes 'UFO' - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com<
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:56:21 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 13:41:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Bainbridge, Ohio Woman Tapes 'UFO' - Young


 >From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >Source: WKYC-TV - Channel 3 Cleveland

 >http://www.wkyc.com/news/morelocal/bainbridge/010904ufosighting.ssf

Listfolk:

Might Venus, Ladies & Gents.


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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             Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:25:11 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 13:44:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Bourdais


 >Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 15:36:21 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind

 >>From: Franois Parmantier <parcol@club-internet.fr>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind
 >>Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 17:06:52 +0200

 >>Claude Vorilhon is very well known in France, and not only among
 >>ufologists, as a dangerous person and his group as a very well
 >>organized and profitable company. Please note that he claims to
 >>be the fastest religious leader thanks to his disciples who fund
 >>the raelian racing car team. Unfortunately, the reality is not
 >>so funny and his cloning project is worrying. So there is a need
 >>to spread informations about him

 >Cloning requires science, not religion. I don't expect
 >much to come of it. -LH

 >>French journalists have carried out investigations into the
 >>Raelian movement and his personal story. The last one was
 >>broadcast on a French TV, M6, few months ago. In this report,
 >>his best old-friend testified that Rael confessed to him he
 >>never saw any flying saucer and that he created the whole story.


Hello All,

Thank you, Franois, for bringing this information to UFO
UpDates. I confirm entirely what you say, especially the
testimony of a former close friend of Rael in France. I have
seen the TV program, too.


Gildas Bourdais













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             Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:27:49 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 13:46:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Bourdais


 >Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:05:27 -0700
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind

 >Larry,

 >I think you must admit that besides (c) above, there could be
 >any number of other, sober reasons why this old friend might
 >have turned against Claude (Rael), and invented a debunking
 >story; such as:

 >(1) He doesn't like the thought of cloning humans

 >(2) he grew jealous of all the attention Rael was getting

 >(3) he became friends with some French ufologists and learned
 >that they automatically debunk people who claim to be
 >contactees, so he could get on good terms with them by debunking
 >Rael

 >(4) it dawned on him that Rael's strong advocacy of free love
 >among the members of his movement would promote the spread of
 >AIDS, or

 >(5) he became disenamored of one of the teachings Rael
 >proclaimed, such as extolling his brand of Judaism at the
 >expense of Christianity, or something else.....

 >Without knowing anything about this "old friend," or who he is,
 >one can only guess at such possible motivations. I wonder if he
 >is the friend he called "Francois" in his 1986 book, who was
 >allegedly in on Rael's claimed July 1975 sighting. If so, how
 >likely is it that Francois would wait 25 years before objecting
 >to Rael's use of his name in his book, or before confessing his
 >own involvement in the hoax?

 >So I would be interested in learning a lot more about this "old
 >friend," as well as allowing Rael to tell his side of the story,
 >before jumping to any conclusion about it.


Dear Jim,

It is very kind of you to try to defend the case of Rael, but I
can assure you that here in France no real ufologist, of any
opinion on UFOs, takes him seriously.

Rael became famous overnight thanks to a popular TV program of
Jacques Chancel, and he has been a nightmare ever since, being a
regular guest, in his ridiculous white suit, on many popular
shows about UFOs. He is a very cynical man, boasting openly
about making a lot of money, and laughing at those who don't, as
was shown in his recent interview on French TV.

On the contrary, his old friend looked very credible to me. He
was a quiet country man, smiling a little and somewhat
embarassed to have to tell his story.


Regards to all

Gildas Bourdais








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             Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Evans

From: Evans <shooter@afterimagephoto.tv>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 13:18:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 16:38:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Evans


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
 >Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 17:18:58 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

 >>Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 18:08:21 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans <shooter@afterimagephoto.tv>
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

Previously, Grant had written:

 >>>There is an analogy described by often by Daniel Sheehan. It is
 >>>of 1,000 or more Jewish concentration camp prisioners being
 >>>guarded by 2, 3, or 4 German guards with guns. The prisioners
 >>>just sat and waited to be led to the slaughter.

I responded:

 >>Grant, you are way out of line and so is Sheehan. It is one
 >>thing for 1000 people to sit passively under the watch of a few
 >>guards. It is something else altogether when those guards have
 >>their guns pointed at one's children, which was the real
 >>leverage used on concentration camp prisoners; act up and your
 >>loved ones will be killed right in front of you.

Serge replied:

 >Uh?

 >Wrong picture, Rodge. This is not a Rambo movie.

 >Re-read your history and Grant is right on the money with this
 >one. It may not be hollywoodesque, but it is reality.

Serge,

I have forgotten more about the history of concentration camp
survivors than you will ever know. My jounalism teacher was a
victim of the camps, and still had the tatoos on her arm. I had
many, many meetings with her, other survivors of the camps as
well as POWs of German camps over the years as I did research on
the very subject that is being debated.

You are simply wrong. The irony is that Grant's proposed
"reality" _is_ the more hollywoodesque of the two scenerios; one
that is popularized by people that can _not_ imagine the mental
tortures that the Nazis inflicted on the already tortured bodies
of concentration camp victims.

Here are the facts: The Jews were no cowards, as Grant and
Sheehan suggest, and the Nazis were not stupid, as depicted in
shows like "Hogan's Heroes".

So, the question becomes, "How do smart people use the least man
power to confine and control a large group of people that aren't
cowards?"

Exactly the way I described and exactly the way it was done as
confirmed by the people that were there: The Nazis separated the
children and loved ones from the adults and used the threat of
death or harm of the weaker group to keep the more able bodied
adults in line. More to the point, _smaller_ camps that had
prisoners of war (soldiers) had _far_ more guards than the
larger concentration camps did. Now why would that be? Because
the same tactic would not work on military men in confinement
since loved ones weren't part of the equation.

Don't debate me on this, Serge. You are simply wrong and the
deeper you try to justify Grant's writings, the more you will
only lose respect from people that know the truth about the
camps. I have nothing else to say to you on this because the
whole subject sickens me to no end.

Believe what you want, but I sincerely hope you rethink your
position.


Roger









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                             Re: No Joke - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:26:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 16:40:55 -0400
Subject: Re: No Joke - Velez


 >Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 12:43:09 -0400
 >From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: No Joke

 >>Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:41:12 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: No Joke

 >>Speaking as an abductee:

 >>If you multiply that 'feeling' of helplessness by a factor of a
 >>hundred you begin to understand the challenge that abductees
 >>find themselves confronted with. You have the luxury of turning
 >>it off inside your own head. Those who have actually experienced
 >>it have to -live with- the reality and memory of those
 >>encounters.

 ><snip>

Hi Terry,

You wrote:

 >I guess my fear is that those of you who can remember your
 >experiences are the unfortunate ones. And that the rest of us
 >suffer from the "blue pill syndrome" a la 'The Matrix'.

It's true. "The Matrix has you!"

"Follow the White Rabbit."

Knock, knock Neo!"  ;)

Your comment kicked up a lot of stuff. I figured verbalizing it
and sharing it would be informative and beneficial to some.
Calling those of us who consciously recall these contacts
"unfortunate ones" misses the fact that 'some of us' are the
kind of people who would prefer to know, rather than not know. I
don't like to have anything 'sugarcoated' for me. Give it to me
straight and let me work it all out for myself. For others 'not
knowing' is just as good and as valid an approach as the one I
have chosen for myself. But I don't consider myself to be an
"unfortunate" because I have raised the lid on Pandora's box.
It's just a pure bitch closing again!  <vbg>

 >There once was a religion called Gnosis whose members sought
 >illumination. The illuminatus saw beyond the self inflicted
 >reality screen of the non-adept. We have been invaded and
 >conquered at that level but few are enlightened enough to see
 >it. Like, the game is already over and we didn't have enough
 >sense (awareness) to play. The results of conquest are manifest
 >in reality in unforeseen ways: addiction, hate, cruelty, apathy,
 >loss of faith.

In terms of the alleged "invasion" you bet it's over. Been
"over" for probably thousands of years! And speaking as one who
has had to overcome "addiction, hate, cruelty, apathy, and loss
of faith," I would not be who I am today were it not for those
very same challenges and obstacles. I have learned to appreciate
the lessons I have learned along the way. As Einstien said,
"It's all relative Schlomo!" Depends on your point of view
whether something represents a negative or a positive, an
obstacle or an opportunity.  :)

 >Gee, I sound like a 60's Quinn/Martin production. ;-)

My all time Quinn/Martin fav was "The Fugitive" with David
Jansen!  ;)

 >Now, I need to get a grip(ple).

If your 'grip' is as white knuckled as the rest of us, welcome
aboard the ledge we're _all_ dangling from mate!  :)


Regards,

John Velez









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                  Re: New Developments In Linda Abduction -

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:33:00 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 16:42:57 -0400
Subject: Re: New Developments In Linda Abduction -


 >From: Luis R. Gonzlez Manso <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: New Developments In Linda Abduction
 >Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 10:44:42 +0200

 >>From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: New Developments In Linda Abduction
 >>Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:11:42 -0600

Dear Luis, Listers,

First, let me apologize for the lateness of my reply, and for
not making myself clear in my first email. Since I have not yet
read "Nighteyes" (I will soon), I based my analysis on what
points the critics felt worthy to discuss as "too coincidental"
to allow for anything other than a hoax. I disagreed with their
assumption based on the _same_ points. My perception may be
skewed. (As you so gently suggested, Luis, I better read the
book, before I make assumptions. Otherwise, I'll be in the same
boat as the critics.). Speaking as an abductee, I have
personally experienced _all_ but two (2) of the points the
critics mentioned, including the ones _you_ mention.

That makes for a strong correlation between experiences, because
there are now three (3) independent persons (including myself)
who say they have experienced similar events in their lives. The
fact that these events are "common" to three independent persons
(one of whom may be fictional), only further strengthens the
"commonality" between them, making the events no longer
anamalous. It seems incredible. It's a hard pill to swallow, I
grant you that! The implications are pretty mind-boggling. Want
to talk about that? Therefore, my use of the word
"commonalities." (I'd rather "sweep over" the implications, but
my mind won't all me to do that, or I wouldn't have bothered to
write this much personal information on this list.)

However you look at these events, whether coincidental,
manufactured and/or engineered, a definite pattern is evident to
me. Therefore, it was my argument that the critics "shot
themselves in their own feet" because: (1) they used a "case
study" (at that, perhaps fictional) to argue their point for a
hoax; and, (2) the critics compounded their error in using
"Fantasy Theme" analysis as a possible scenario for the
"coincidences" of the events described, failing to update the
"chaining out" of events which have ocurred subsequent to
Hopkin's initial publication of the possible abduction in the
Linda Cortile.

Rather, I feel it may have been more worthwhile for the critics
to research the possibility that other contactees might have
experienced the same or similar events in their lives, apart
from a (perhaps fictionalized) novel, which "coincidentally"(?)
matched the events of another abduction scenario (the Linda
Cortile case). That one I am familiar with, as well as my own.
Luis, I put a lot of faith in personal experience. So, if you
want to argue this further, and discuss the magnanamous
implications, please do write. You might open my otherwise
squeezed-shut-eyes and clentched-teeth (terror) on this issue.


Sincerely,

Sue Strickland









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                  Re: Bainbridge, Ohio Woman Tapes 'UFO' -

From: David Wachenschwanz <ploot@atomiccafe.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:14:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 16:45:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Bainbridge, Ohio Woman Tapes 'UFO' -


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com<
 >Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:56:21 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Bainbridge, Ohio Woman Tapes 'UFO'
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>Source: WKYC-TV - Channel 3 Cleveland

 >>http://www.wkyc.com/news/morelocal/bainbridge/010904ufosighting.ssf

 >Listfolk:

 >Might Venus, Ladies & Gents.


Hey, thanks for posting that URL! I wanted to see the video and
it also indicated what part of the Buckeye State Bainbridge was
in.

I've been all over the world but I still know very little about
my birth state!


David E Wachenschwanz - Houston
"Watching The Skys When Not Checking Eyelids For Cracks."








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                             Re: No Joke - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 19:15:36 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 16:46:40 -0400
Subject: Re: No Joke - Hall


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:51:52 EDT
 >Subject: Re: No Joke
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: No Joke
 >>Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 23:03:17 +0000

 >>Sorry folks, but I don't think the UFO subject or its effects on
 >>human beings is funny at all.

 >Richard:

 >Nor do I, for the most part.

 >>The evidence is overwhelming that we are being diddled with by
 >>Beings From Somewhere (ET or not doesn't really matter) and
 >>notwithstanding Bob Young and his ilk (Non potest, ergo non est)
 >>we should be at least trying to systematically gather data,
 >>critically analyzing it, and subjecting our interpretations to
 >>thoroughgoing peer review.

 >When is the last time that has happened? MUFON meetings or when
 >you met with your publisher to discuss your advance?

Bob,

There was no advance on my book. But there was a hell of a lot
of systematic data gathering and analysis that went into it.
CUFOS, SSE, and others including some individuals who
participate on this site are practicing some good science. But
of course you have never shown any sign of being aware of the
serious work that is going on, only the kookery to which your
knee jerks in violent reaction.

 >>That is the only scientific approach.

 >>It is only the skeptibunkers like Young who are totally
 >>convinced that they already have the answer in advance; the rest
 >>of us believe in trying to do science.

 >The difference between our beliefs, Dick, is that you think that
 >there is _an answer_, that you have it, and it is Beings of some
 >sort, but I think that like most other human affairs there are
 >actually a lot of little answers and probably even some leftover
 >questions that folks a lot smarter or luckier than us might some
 >day figure out. And if they don't it's probably not going to be
 >an Earthshaking oversight, in any case.

The difference between our beliefs (as you have clearly
demonstrated on this site) is that mine are based on
considerable data gathering and analysis where as yours are
based on bald-faced assumptions without much (if any ) case
investigation.

 >>What _is_ funny is the human reactions to UFO reports, which
 >>gives us a wide range of laughable absurdities all too often
 >>displayed here. Some of it distinctly reminds me of the old
 >>saying about laughing past the graveyard.

 >What seems to have gotten you is that you may have suspected
 >that there were some hee-hees and snorts coming from the
 >cubicles of The Ilk over yet another human saucer fiasco.

I guess I need a translation of this. I hee-haw and snort at
"saucer fiascos" all the time.

 >Another problem, Dick, seems to be that you have a problem
 >laughing at yourself.

This shows how little you know about me. Actually I think I'm a
pretty funny fellow, so I laugh at myself a lot.

 >Bob Young


Dick Hall

On the tail of The Ilk with all guns loaded and primed.









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                       Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:57:24 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 16:48:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Young


 >Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 17:18:53 -0700
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:44:28 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip.

 >Answer me just a few questions Mr. Young?

 >1. What is your problem with Disclosure Mr. YOung?

Liars.

 >2. Why do you not seem to want the DP witnesses to
 >testify?

They already have, haven't they?

<snip>

 >Seems like Bob is anti-anyone who wants disclosure? Huh?

Yes, I'm a card carrying member of the MIBs. [Flash]

 >On the contrary it does seem that many in the UFO movement lives
 >are terribly miserable, the fear, the hate, the assumptions and
 >accusations without any attempt at verification..

I'm relieved that you've noticed. Perhaps I was a little hasty -
although I doubt it.

 >I have yet to come across so much misery, even in the prison
 >gulag of America!

Oh, come on. Ever been in prison for more than just a few hours?

<snip>

 >If you do wish to have a conversation about facts, thoughts, and
 >feelings at some time -- by all means write. I'll be here! I
 >don't delete stuff just cause it doesn't fit with my agenda! ;-)

How about giving a citation and source for the following
nonsense:

"In Cumbria, England …Sellafield, a Nuclear power station as
heavily contaminated with radioactivity as Chernobyl."

And while you're at it, could you explain what the British
Government could have done with the thousands of dead
without anybody noticing? Please be specific, with known
examples.


Clear skies,

Bob Young

MIB [Flash]
----------
"There is no use in trying," said Alice; "one can't believe
impossible things."

"I dare say you haven't had much practice," said the Queen.
"When I was your age, I always did it for half an hour a day.
Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things
before breakfast."

-- Lewis Carroll, "Through the Looking Glass"








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              Re: New Developments in Linda Abduction - Hansen

From: George Hansen <gphansen2001@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:07:10 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 16:51:08 -0400
Subject: Re: New Developments in Linda Abduction - Hansen


 >From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:11:42 -0600
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 08:29:42 -0400
 >Subject: Re: New Developments In Linda Abduction


I wish to thank Ms. Sue Strickland for taking the time to
comment on my post regarding the Linda Napolitano (aka, Cortile)
case. She appears to have misconstrued some of my work. That is
not surprising. The trickster perspective is difficult to
comprehend initially, and it is often a source of confusion. But
it is key to understanding the paranormal.

Ms. Strickland raised a number of points. I will address several
here.


Klass

Mr. Klass did contribute information for the Stefula, Butler,
and Hansen critique published in 1993. I thanked him for it
publicly, and if the acknowledgement was not sufficiently
prominent, I apologize.

That paper can be found at:

http://www.tricksterbook.com/ArticlesOnline/LindaCase.htm


Mr. Klass did none of the writing of the paper, and to the best
of my recollection, he was not even shown the paper prior to its
distribution and publication. I did the writing; Stefula and
Butler did the bulk of the investigation.

Mr. Klass has made major contributions to ufology. I respect
him. I also disagree with him on a great many issues.

My own perspective on UFO phenomena is briefly presented on my
website:

http://www.tricksterbook.com/BookDescriptions/Ufology.htm


Nighteyes

As Ms. Strickland indicates, the novel Nighteyes by Garfield
Reeves-Stevens does indeed incorporate many aspects of the
typical UFO abduction experience. However, the novel also
includes peculiar features, which, by Hopkins' own admission,
were unique to the Linda case.

Further, there are significant inconsistencies between Linda's
claims and verifiable facts.

The unique features and the inconsistencies constitute an
overwhelming case against the literal reality of the Napolitano
abduction.


Dungeons and Dragons (D&D) Comparison

The comparison between UFO abductions and fantasy role-playing
games (FRPGs) is of very limited usefulness, with the typical
abduction.

The Linda Napolitano case is not typical, and the D&D comparison
is very helpful from a variety of perspectives. Some of the most
prominent people in ufology endorsed the case, including John
Mack, David Jacobs, Walt Andrus, and Jerry Clark (Clark has
since taken a more neutral position). The failure of these
leaders to critically assess the claims should be of grave
concern. It was their behavior, rather than, Linda's, that makes
the D&D comparison so compelling.

My new book discusses FRPGs in more depth than the 1993
critique. I hope that abductees will not find it offensive.
There are substantial limitations to the comparison, and I
discuss those limits in my book.


NDEs and UFOs

Ms. Strickland reports that she has had both near-death
experiences as well as abduction experiences.

I suspect that most U.S. ufologists would thus look askance upon
her claims. Similarly, Kenneth Ring's work on the NDE-UFO
overlap was not well received in U.S. ufology. The overlap is
extremely important, and trickster theory addresses this
surprising nexus.

Again, I want to thank Ms. Strickland for taking the time to
comment (and also for buying a copy of my book!). I look forward
to her future remarks.


Sincerely,

George P. Hansen








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              Re: New Developments in Linda Abduction - Hansen

From: George Hansen <gphansen2001@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:11:22 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 16:53:46 -0400
Subject: Re: New Developments in Linda Abduction - Hansen


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 21:17:44 -0400
 >Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 12:34:58 -0400
 >Subject: Re: New Developments In Linda Abduction


Mr. John Velez has made some allegations that deserve a
response.

Velez refers to me saying: "he was the guy responsible for
splattering Linda's real name all over the Internet four years
ago." He also indicates that I violated her "privacy" and "right
to chose (sic) anonymity."

At the 1992 MUFON convention Linda Napolitano took the stage and
told of her kidnapping by government agents. She did this in
front of hundreds of people, including media representatives.
She did not choose anonymity, contrary to the statements of Mr.
Velez. Ms. Napolitano voluntarily presented herself and her
claims publicly.

Saucer Smear (Sept. 5th, 1992, Volume 39, No. 8, page 1) was
perhaps the first to publicly reveal Linda's real last name.

I make no apology for using her real name in my articles in 1992
and 1993. This was nine years ago, not four (as Mr. Velez
indicated).

Mr. Velez impugns the creativity and intelligence of Ms.
Napolitano when he says that she does not have what it "would
take to create and execute a hoax of this complexity." I have a
real respect for Ms. Napolitano's intelligence; unfortunately,
Mr. Velez and Mr. Hopkins apparently do not have a similar
respect for Linda.

Mr. Velez states: "Budd isn't the low and deceptive character
that Hansen paints him to be."

Contrary to Mr. Velez's assertion, I have not suggested that Mr.
Hopkins is a deceptive character. I have made it clear that I
think that Budd Hopkins fully believes the Linda case to have
occurred as he has described it in his book and articles.

My opinion of Hopkins is clearly described on page 21 of the
1993 critique. That paper can be found at:

http://www.tricksterbook.com/ArticlesOnline/LindaCase.htm

The above facts should be sufficient to allow the reader to
assess the credibility of Mr. Velez.


Sincerely,

George P. Hansen








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                Re: Newark Airport Radar Information - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 17:40:04 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 17:01:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Newark Airport Radar Information - Ledger


 >From: David Wachenschwanz <ploot@atomiccafe.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Newark Airport Radar Information
 >Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:11:38 -0500

 >>Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 11:16:02 -0300
 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Newark Airport Radar Information

 >>>From: Tim Haley <haleyt@foodsci.purdue.edu>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Re: Newark Airport Radar Information
 >>>Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 17:37:23 -0500

 >>>>From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >>>>Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 17:11:21 -0400
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>>Subject: Dearborn Analysis & Reports On-Line

 >>>>The Dearborn, Michigan Video Analysis and Report are now
 >>>>available online. See the respective links near the bottom of
 >>>>the page at:

 >>>>http://members.home.net/tlemire/dearborn.html

 >>>>I'm always open to sincere constructive criticism.

 >>>I didn't see anything in your analysis that would address the
 >>>possibility of a high flying military jet aircraft flying away
 >>>from the camera with a view of its afterburners.

 >>There again whether in or above the zone the aircraft would
 >>known to the controllers-unless during wartime conditions. The
 >>top of the CZ there is 9 and 13,000 feet.

 >>Also, consider what you are suggesting - that some half-dozen
 >>fighter aircraft are in afterburners therefore they are looking
 >>for speed and power and flying very fast - unlike the lights
 >>which were moving quite slowly.

 >>Remember that multi-engined aircraft such as the old B-52 or
 >>transport aircraft don't have afterburners.

 >>Its a bit of a grasp at straws to suggest afterburners as a
 >>possible explanation for the lights. But, by raising this idea
 >>you've eliminated it.

 >Just a point in fact: The military does have in its inventory
 >multiengine (jet) aircraft with afterburners, i.e.: F-4 Phantom,
 >F-15 Eagle, SR-71 Blackbird, etc, etc.


I repeat,

 >Remember that multi-engined aircraft such as the old B-52 or
 >transport aircraft don't have afterburners.

I never said anything about fighters.

Don Ledger








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   Sep > Sep 6

                       National UFO Conference Update

From: SMiles Lewis <smiles@elfis.net>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 13:15:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 08:05:10 -0400
Subject: National UFO Conference Update


The 38th Annual
NATIONAL UFO CONFERENCE
September 14-15-16
Austin, Texas
www.nufoc.net
www.drafthouse.com/downtown.html

SPONSORED BY
The Austin Chronicle, KLBJ AM, Gomi-"The Cure for Mundane
Living", Vulcan Video, Creatures, Waterloo Records & Video, Wet
Salon, Camera Coop, Mars Restaurant, Jupiter Records, Affordable
Sound and Data Duplication, Adventures in Crime & Space, Alien
Records, Groopie, Quanset Hut, Insty Prints, theUFOstore.com


Update Contents:

-Speaker Focus
-Film Festival Each Night
-Live Music
-Advance Ticket Discount

-=-=-

NUFOC 38 SPEAKERS

Robert Anton Wilson, Jenny Randles, Constance Clear, Patrick
Huyghe, Karl Pflock, Kenn Thomas, Greg Bishop, Eugenia Macer-
Story, James Arthur, David Perkins, James Moseley, Mack White,
Russ Dowden, Tom Deuley, Loren Coleman, Diana Hoyt, Pamela
Stonebrooke, Bruce Wright, Ed Conroy, Erik Stearns, Dennis
Stacy, Don Webb, Miles Lewis, Tim Brigham, Steve Mizrach, Jim
Beal.


-Eugenia Macer-Story-
Eugenia Macer-Story has taught seminars in situations as diverse
as the Kingston, N.Y. town hall (Investigative Dowsing for the
ASD) and the WSES/IEEE International Conference 2001 on Crete,
Greece (a technical explanation of non-local information
theory). She has also appeared on national educational
television in the CBC documentary HAUNTED HOUSES, giving a brief
on-site demonstration of clairvoyant ghost-hunting.

Since first being published in UFOLOGY magazine in 1976, E.
Macer-Story has been writing articles on the unexplained and
anomalous events for a number of magazines and journals. Her
scientific papers have also been published in the proceedings of
the AAAS, New Science Forum, WSES/IEEE International Conferences
and U.S. Psychotronics Association.

She is also a poet/playwright and visual artist whose work has
been exhibited internationally. The International Enciclopaedic
Dictionary of Modern and Contemporary Art 2001/ 2002 (pub:Italy)
will include E. Macer-Story as a recognized contemporary artist.
Her plays & gallery events have been produced off-off Broadway.
She is a member of the U.S. Dramatists Guild.

Eugenia is presenting her paper ""Configurational Time:
Conceptual & Sensory Perception of Multidimensional Events"
Saturday morning. She will also be performing her own "Multi-
Dimensional Music" Friday night and participating in panel
discussions.

For more information on Eugenia...

http://www.MagickMirror.com
http://www.YankeeOracle.org
http://www.Fluidice.com


-David Perkins-
Founder and staff writer for Spirit Magazine. He has been an
active paranormal researcher for the past twenty five years,
investigating everything from cattle mutilations to underground
alien bases. His special area of research is "Paranormal
Phenomena & the Gaian Mind: Considering the Possibilities."

David Perkins is a 1968 graduate of Yale University majoring in
American Studies and Political Science. As a writer/journalist,
he has investigated UFOs, cattle mutilations and paranormal
phenomena since 1975. He has a published book Altered Steaks (Am
Here Books) and is finishing Mute Testimony (co-authored with
Tom Adams, which is a book examining the history of the cattle
mutilation phenomenon. David's article on cattle mutilations,
"Darkening Skies," was included in UFO 1947-1997 (John Brown
Publishing), an anthology of the world's leading authorities on
UFOs.

Perkins, one of ufology�s foremost thinkers, has written
articles that have appeared in Boulder, Taos and High Times
magazines, as well as numerous newspapers and research journals.
He is the founder of  Western Spirit magazine and currently
serves as staff writer for that publication. He also wrote the
forewords to Christopher O'Brien's books The Mysterious Valley
and Enter The Valley. David has been featured on the Art Bell
Radio Show and appeared in numerous television and movie
documentaries including, A Strange Harvest, Sightings, High
Strange New Mexico, The Mutilation Files, Fox Family Channel�s
Exploring the Unknown and The Billion Dollar Secret. His
Weirdness Update is a regular feature in Western Spirit.

David will be presenting his "Paranormal Phenomena and the Gaian
Mind: Considering the Possibilities" paper within the Saturday
Day Session. He will also be participating in several panel
discussions.

For more information on David...

http://www.nufoc.net/perkins.htm


-Tom Deuley-
Deuley, an electrical engineer, served aboard nuclear
submarines, and then worked for the NSA (National Security
Agency). He has been on the National Board of Directors of the
Fund for UFO Research since its inception in 1979.

Friday afternoon Tom will present his research into the "El
Indio Saucer Crash". He will also be participating in the Friday
Day Session UFO Panel Discussion on "Best Future
Research/Gaining Legitimacy)."

For more information on Tom...

http://www.nufoc.net/deuley.htm


-Dennis Stacy-
Editor of The Anomalist, former editor of the MUFON UFO
Journal. Author of the Marfa Lights Viewers Guide, multi-part
UFO series for Omni magazine, co-authored The Field Guide To
UFOs and UFO 1947-1997: Fifty Years of Flying Saucers.

Dennis will present on the "Field Guide Approach to UFOs" during
the Friday Day Session. He will also be participating in panel
discussions.

For more information on Dennis...

http://www.nufoc.net/stacy.htm
http://www.Anomalist.com


-Bruce Lanier Wright-
Bruce Wight is author of two critically acclaimed books...
Yesterday's Tomorrows: The Golden Age of Science Fiction Movie
Posters and Nightwalkers: Gothic Horror Movies, the Modern Era
(available from Taylor Publishing Co, Dallas, TX. or at finer
bookstores everywhere) Bruce Wright is a frequent contributor to
Fortean Times magazine.

On Friday Afternoon Bruce will present his research into "The
Shaver Mystery & the SciFi Influence". He will also be
participating in the "Media Influence & Psychological Warfare"
and "Fact/Fiction the Art Interface within Anomalous Narratives"
panel discussions.

For more information on Bruce...

http://www.nufoc.net/wright.htm
http://www.strangemag.com/invadersfromelsewhere1.html


-Don Webb-
Don Webb has published fiction in a variety of venues and
languages. His most recent fiction collections include A Spell
for the Fulfillment of Desire (Black Ice Books), Stealing My
Rules (CPAOD Books), and The Explanation and Other Good Advice
(Wordcraft of Oregon). His first book, Uncle Ovid's Exercise
Book, won the 1988 Illinois State University/Fiction Collective
fiction contest. His 2nd book, Marchenland ist abgebrannt,
appeared in Austria in 1990. His mystery novel, The Double, was
recently published by St. Martin's Press and another, Essential
Salts, was published in 1999.

Don Webb is an expert on the magical practices of Late
Antiquity, his most recent occult book is The Seven Faces of
Darkness: Practical Typhonian Magic from Runa Raven Press. He
has lectured on Left Hand Path theology, Egyptian magic,
Sadeanism.

Saturday night Don will be reading his short story "Sabbath of
the Zeppelins" which incorporates the Airship "UFO" Scare of the
late 1800s / early 1900s which even touched Austin, Texas. He
will also be participating in the "Fact/Fiction the Art
Interface within Anomalous Narratives" panel discussion.

For mor information on Don...

http://www.nufoc.net/webb.htm
http://www.euro.net/mark-space/bioDonWebb.html


-=-=-

FLYING SAUCER FILM FESTIVAL
http://www.nufoc.net/filmfest.htm

The UFO phenomenon exists in a synergistic cybernetic interface
with humanity. Whatever the true nature of UFOs, they interact
with us within several different milieus, all of which are
influenced by the media and culture. This media and culture in
turn feeds back into the phenonomenon in a continuous cycle.

If the fantastic fictions of our television and print media can
feedback upon and influence our images and ideas of the unknown
then we will continue to have a harder and harder time of
sorting the wheat from the chaff of non-human intelligences
communicating through the UFO encounter.

Therefore it is very important that we look at some of the
various ways the subject of UFOs and Aliens have been handled by
the film and television industries. Each night's selection of
films delves into these issues areas especially as they relate
to that day's particular event theme.

Friday night features:

-UFOs It Has Begun by Robert Emenneger
-Five Million Years To Earth by Nigel Kneale

UFOS: It Has Begun (1974/1978)
Our first documentary of the conference is infamous for its
collection of narrators and UFO personalities (Rod Serling,
Burgess Meredith, Jose Ferrer, Jacques Vallee, J. Allen Hynek
etc) but more so because of the strange tale of military
contacts dangling a ufological carrot in front of the film
makers. This documentary also had the full cooperation of NASA,
and the Department of Defense.

For more information on UFOs It Has Begun...

http://alienade.tripod.com/newshollo.html
http://www.eclecticviewpoint.com/evemen.html
http://www.tje.net/para/documents/ebe/ebe02.htm


Five Million Years To Earth (1967)
aka Quatermass & The Pit
"Was the Devil really a Martian? Could our predatory nature be
the result of a eugenics experiment performed on our ancestors
by aliens millions of years ago? These are the questions raised
after an ancient spaceship is unearthed in the London
Underground, and Professor Quatermass must answer them before
the world is torn apart in a Martian race war. Based on the
popular BBC sci-fi t.v. series."

For more information on Five Million Years To Earth...

http://mappa.mundi.net/reviews/review_004/
http://www.xfiles.stylicious.com/season7/7x03_tombli.html
http://www.mbcnet.org/ETV/Q/htmlQ/quartermass/quartermass.htm
http://www.stomptokyo.com/movies/q/quatermass-and-the-pit.html


Saturday night features:

-Tribulation99: Alien Anomalies Under America
-Alien DreamTime & excerpts from The Mummy's
-Wilhelm Reich: Mysteries of the Organism


Tribulations 99: Alien Anomalies Under America (1991) Craig
Baldwin and Ken Adams are both leading explorers of new media
revolution; Craig Baldwin with his archeologically oriented
found footage assemblages of fact/fiction documentaries and Ken
Adams with advanced psychedelic computer imagery and surrealist
subject matter.

Tribulation99 is the much talked about pseudocumentary that
weaves a twisted tale incorporating old world myths of
subterranean reptoids within the hollow earth, the flying saucer
phenomenon, third world politics, earth changes, the rapture and
more. Its a mind bending journey through old film libraries and
strange movie memes.

For more information on Tribulations 99 and Craig Baldwin...

http://www.othercinema.com
http://www.othercinema.com/filmography/trib99.html


Alien DreamTime (1992) & The Mummy's Tongue (2001)
excerpts Ken Adams is no stranger to the strange. He has made
two of the most psychedelic films ever (Alien DreamTime &
Strange Attractor) both of which featured psychedelic shaman
Terence McKenna and his informational ideas about the alien
Other and the morphogenetic noosphere. Alien DreamTime
approximates the psychedelic state of consciousness using then
leading edge computer graphics and visual stimuli with Terence
McKenna's tell tale voice and SpaceTime Continuum's trance music
pushing us along.

Ken's latest endeavor is a conspiracy comedy called Mummy's
Tongue about the mysterious spiriting away of Abraham Lincoln's
assassin's tongue; an apparent hand me down from one conspiracy
collector to the other. Ken is working with Austin photographer
Bob Sherman on this soon to be released feature.

For more information on Alien DreamTime & Ken Adams...

http://www.mummystongue.com/production.html
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.05/streetcred.html
http://www.fringecore.com/magazine/m1-4.html
http://www.auschron.com/film/pages/movies/15384.html


WR Mysteries of the Organism (1971)
WR stands for Wilhelm Reich and World Revolution. This bizarre
film is for adults only. It's one third art film, one third
documentary and one third adult feature. Dusan Makavejev weaves
a bizarre tapestry giving us much insight into the weird world
of Wilhelm Reich and the FDA's dramatic response to his ideas
and activities. Makavejev then tells a love story about Wilhelm
Reich wherein Reich's character is a beautiful young
revolutionary who falls in love with a repressed Russian figure
skater.

Interspersed with old propaganda reels, sexpol films, bizarre
Reichian therapy workshop footage and rare interviews with those
who knew Wilhelm Reich, this film will leave you gasping to know
even more about the enigmatic man and his wild theories of the
life energy known as Orgone.

For more information about WR Mysteries of the Organism...

http://www.facets.org/archives/directors/makavejev/
http://www.auricular.com/AIM/reviews/sfiff41/day8.html
http://film.guardian.co.uk/Century_Of_Films/Story/0,4135,55070,00.html
http://www.sensesofcinema.com/contents/00/11/wr.html
http://www.sfiff.org/fest98/programs/wrmyst.html
http://www.indiana.edu/~iupress/books/0-85170-720-3.shtml


Sunday night features:

-Contact UFO: Alien Abductions
-Spectres of the Spectrum by Craig Baldwin


Contact UFO: Alien Abductions (1991)
Perhaps the best documentary ever made on alien abductions. This
investigative film starts off with a wonderful review of the
early UFO Contactee Era and its inhabitants. It quickly moves to
the modern day abduction phenomenon and the film makers
interview the best and brightest in the UFO field. A must see
for the die hard UFO researcher or interested layperson.

For more information on this documentary...
http://www.mpihomevideo.com/conufoalab.html

OnLine Preview Trailer:
Standard   http://www.mpimedia.com/real_video/S_Promo350.ram
Deluxe  http://www.mpimedia.com/real_video/D_Promo350.ram


Spectres of the Spectrum (1999)
An incredibly relevant look at how electromagnetics have
impacted humanity's history and future by found footage artist
Craig Baldwin.

Set in the year 2007 in the blighted desert outpost of Las
Vegas, a young telepathic woman ("BooBoo") scavenges for
survival on an old bombing range with her father ("Yogi") who is
holed up in a cinder-block pirate-TV station, broadcasting
rambling diatribes on the impending global electromagnetic
'Pulse'. A solar eclipse gives BooBoo a cosmic opportunity to
save the world, through a superluminal voyage back into time to
retrieve a secret message left on the airwaves by her scientist
grandmother.

This science-fiction allegory about 'electromagnetic autonomy'
in opposition to the hegemony of the culture-management
industry, tracing a history of media technology from its early
days to a 21st century "New Electromagnetic Order" that
threatens to take total control of our lives.

For more information including four film excerpts...

http://www.othercinema.com/sos/sosgallery.html
http://www.othercinema.com/sos.html
http://www.combustiblecelluloid.com/intcb.shtml
http://www.alpertawards.org/archive/winner97/baldwin.html

-=-=-

LIVE MUSIC

For more on the live music being featured at the conference...

http://www.nufoc.net/music.htm

-=-=-

ADVANCE REGISTRATION DISCOUNTS
Remember, prices below are the reduced advance registration
prices.


Advance Registration Before September 9th
$30 Individual Day Session Pass
(MUST SPECIFY WHICH SESSION 1 / 3 / 5 )
$20 Individual Night Session Pass
(MUST SPECIFY WHICH SESSION 2 / 4 / 6 )
$45 Day/Night Combo Pass (2 same day sessions)
(MUST SPECIFY WHICH DAY Fri/Sat/Sun )
$120 All Sessions Pass (all 6 sessions)

SEND CHECKS OR MONEY ORDERS TO:

National UFO Conference
PO Box 33509
Austin, TX 78764
Make checks payable to: National UFO Conference

OR PURCHASE ONLINE

Thanks to Ticketweb and the Alamo Drafthouse Cinema tickets to
NUFOC 38 can now be purchased online with valid credit card:

http://www.ticketweb.com/user/?region=texas&query=schedule&venue=alamodrafthouse
&next=243289

Seating is limited so please inquire immediately.









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   Sep > Sep 6

              Re: Dearborn Analysis & Reports On-Line - Lemire

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 16:59:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 13:00:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Dearborn Analysis & Reports On-Line - Lemire


 >From: Tim Haley <haleyt@foodsci.purdue.edu>
 >Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 17:37:23 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Newark Airport Radar Information - Haley

 >From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 17:11:21 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Dearborn Analysis & Reports On-Line

 >The Dearborn, Michigan Video Analysis and Report are now
 >available online. See the respective links near the bottom of
 >the page at:

 >http://members.home.net/tlemire/dearborn.html

 >I'm always open to sincere constructive criticism.

 >Todd,

 >I didn't see anything in your analysis that would address the
 >possibility of a high flying military jet aircraft flying away
 >from the camera with a view of its afterburners.

 >Tim Haley

Tim, David, and Don,

Thanks so much for the feedback and I do apologize for not being
able to put the whole video online which would give everyone a
better understanding of the 'objects' flight characteristics.

Due to the estimated speed of the object and the length of time
it was in view pretty much rules out a military jet with it's
afterburners on.  An SR-71, using one of Tim's examples, exceeds
Mach 3 or three times the speed of sound.  Mach 1 is 330 m/s or
741.4 mph, the speed of sound. Mach 2 is twice this; Mach 3,
etc.  The SR-71 fly's at 33 miles per minute or 3,000 feet per
second. It fly's faster than a 30-06 bullet.

The object, just in the 40 secs that I have online, at the speed
of 33 miles/min. would've flown approx. 22 miles.  Now the
afterburners, viewed as a single light at this distance,
would've also appeared to have shrunk into invisibility at that
speed and distance.  Also, this object was filmed for
approximately 6 mins. altogether, which would've put the
distance traveled for an SR-71 at almost 200 miles!  Even at
Mach 1 the distance traveled would've been approx. 74 miles.

Without starting another long winded argument about flying
outside the boundaries of MOA's and military traffic patterns,
the area of this sighting does not lie along known military
traffic routes, with the nearest being that of Selfridge ANG.

I believe you're absolutely right Don, we're able to safely
eliminate this as a possibility, and I really didn't see a need
to address this particular issue within the report.


Sincerely,

Todd Lemire

Michigan UFO CENTRAL
http://members.home.net/tlemire/UFOCENTRAL.html








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                            Another Cosmic Christ

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 11:04:54 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 13:33:18 -0400
Subject: Another Cosmic Christ


Hello all:

Here is a news item from France about a group I had not heard of
before:


  Police begin demolishing giant statue of cult
  leader built illegally in French Alps
  (Associated Press)

CASTELLANE, France (AP) Armed with high-powered jackhammers and
dynamite, French police on Wednesday began demolishing a giant
concrete statue of a cult leader built illegally in the hills of
the French Alps.

Dozens of police entered the mountain retreat of the Mandarom
sect at dawn with court papers authorizing the destruction of
the 107-foot-tall statue that has been the focus of an ongoing
legal battle between cult members and residents.

The painted concrete statue was built in 1993 to honor the
secretive group's now-deceased leader, Gilbert Bourdin, who
referred to himself as the "Cosmic Christ."

The statue, adorned with a flowing white robe and a golden
crown, depicts Bourdin with fluorescent green eyes and holding
two scepters.

Many residents in Castellane, in southeastern France, object to
the statue and have fought for years to have it removed on the
grounds that it was built without a permit.

Police cordoned off the area around the statue early Wednesday.
A dozen military trucks sealed off nearby roads.

Sect members were cleared from the compound, but one person
scrambled to the statue and climbed up it before an officer
scaled the monument to bring him down.

Demolition crews then began chipping away at the statue's
reinforced concrete base with jackhammers. Authorities said they
planned to topple the 1,100-ton statue with explosives.

The work was expected to be completed within 48 hours, said
Bernard Lemaire, the top official in the Alpes-
de-Haute-Provence region in southeastern France.

Bourdin, a self-proclaimed messiah who claimed he shielded the
world from extraterrestrial invasions, died in 1998 at the age
of 72. He had suffered from diabetes and Parkinson's disease.

A former teacher from the French Caribbean island of Martinique,
Bourdin founded the Mandarom cult in 1969. Followers are strict
vegetarians who wear loose-fitting tunics and keep their heads
shaved.

A 1996 French parliamentary report said the group had engaged in
"insidious recruitment" practices and cited a police
investigation of rape accusations brought against Bourdin by
five former cult members.

France began cracking down on religious sects in recent years in
response to groups such as the Order of the Solar Temple, which
lost 74 members in mass suicides in France, Switzerland and
Canada between 1994 and 1997.

The French government passed a law this year that increases the
country's judicial arsenal against sects. The law makes it
easier for courts to disband sects that have committed abuses.

- - - -

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                  Re: New Developments in Linda Abduction -

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:52:05 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 13:39:53 -0400
Subject: Re: New Developments in Linda Abduction -


 >Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:07:10 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: George Hansen <gphansen2001@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: New Developments in Linda Abduction
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:11:42 -0600
 >>Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 08:29:42 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: New Developments In Linda Abduction


Dear Dr. Hansen,

Thank you for responding to my questions. Firstly, I wish to
acknowledge your responses. But, until I receive your book and
study it and _also_ read Nighteyes, I cannot debate the issues
you have discussed with intelligent responses, except from my
abductee and NDE experience paradigms. I tried to do that in my
response to Luis Gonzales-Manso's email. Unfortunately, my
response to his letter posted at the same time that your
response did. I realize that if I am to learn anything new, I
cannot confine my mind, exclusive of others research, no matter
how uncomfortable I may be in the process. So, I wish to table
this conversation until later. Can we bring this thread up
again?

Also, you may have misunderstood a remark I made. The many
abductions and visits I experienced took place at completely
different times in my life and in geographically separate
locales than the 4 NDEs I've experienced. Initially, I never
made any mental or physical connection between the two kinds of
experiences. The questions began 6 years ago, when I realized
that my physical body was absent in one scenario, having taken a
new form (the NDEs), while my physical body is _always_ present
in the abduction experiences. That is when I began to explore
both of these phenomena. Both scenarios seem to have been
occurring in different dimensions on the _same_ plane (this
one). I have only had one (1) out-of-body experience while in
the presence of the ETs. I was definitely in another demension
on a separate plane during that experience. If you wish to
discuss this aspect of your work in relation to my experiences,
before I read your book, that is also your perogative. I cannot
guarantee that what I tell you will sound logical (it
isn't)...but it's the truth...however bizarre it may sound.

Thanking you in advance.


Sincerely,

Sue Strickland

P.S. Snail mail sucks.







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   Sep > Sep 6

                             Re: No Joke - Karr

From: Nancy Karr <karr@home.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 18:19:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:05:20 -0400
Subject: Re: No Joke - Karr


 >Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:41:12 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: No Joke


 >Speaking as an abductee:

 >If you multiply that 'feeling' of helplessness by a factor of a
 >hundred you begin to understand the challenge that abductees
 >find themselves confronted with. You have the luxury of turning
 >it off inside your own head. Those who have actually experienced
 >it have to -live with- the reality and memory of those
 >encounters. They have no choice but to face it square on and
 >deal with it. (And I mean 'deal for real'. Life or death, fight
 >or flight type stuff. On the most elemental and primal human
 >levels.)
<snip>


I new to the List and wasn't sure if there were any other
experiencers here but it's so good to hear from you Sue and now
from John.

I'm a long time abductee/experiencer and just reaching the age
where I'm feeling tired of being 'messed' with and only knowing
about one quarter of the story behind it. I thought I was the
only one that was having a hard time finding a professional to
help me through hypnosis that wold be able to ask the right
questions... also that might have a mutual interest in the
information that I have within my head.

I may repeat some what John has so elloquently said in his
post... but the fear of uncovering experiences and how they
might effect and change your life has to finally be outweighed
by the inner urging of wanting some answers and trying to take
back some control in your life. I also had to let my children
grow up because I was afraid that the information could be used
against them.

The way that I got through without thinking or talking about it
was to push all of the memories back in my brain and try not to
think about it but you can only do this for so long and it
starts coming out in various ways.

The other odd thing and I imagine it's part of the alien
conditioning is that when I start to talk about this stuff or
relay it to others I get sleepy and no matter how adimant I was
in the initial urge to talk about it... I get distracted and
having feelings such as: that it dosn't matter, I've got better
things to do etc. I've been starting to use that as a clue, for
instance ...if the information doesn't matter I can talk about
it freely...if it may comprimise the security of the alien
aganda then, as I feel now, can hardly remember how to type my
own name.

To this day no one knows everything that I can remember going
through, I have kept it mostly to myself.

Some of the information that I have will not be the usual... go
up on the ship, get examined and put back in bed types of
scenarios.

I understand that MUFON is only interested in abductions that
fit their particular criteria. I have sent an email to the local
Toronto MUFON group but I have a feeling that I probably won't
get a response. So I'm left to feel that I'm out in this alone
and that's okay, I'm getting used to it. I'm one of those who
feel that they have agreed to helping the aliens in their
reproductive programs. I know that all of us do not feel the
same way. I have concious recall of quite a bit of my
experiences but am curious about what I do not remember. I have
been given many gifts because of these experiences and then
again have suffered many health problems too.

I do value humor and have been known to break out in laughter at
things that others do not find very funny :) but I feel that if
you cannot laugh at life and especially at yourself then you're
going to have a very hard time getting through it.

I had a 'recall dream' two nights ago... actually I had two and
I was trying to pay attention and get as much detail from these
dreams as possible. I can remember thinking that the first dream
was too complicated to remember so I thought of a keyword and a
visual. So I woke up saying to myself... as long as I remember
being a coat rack I'll remember the dream... a coat rack arrgh!
I had a good laugh about that one.


Nancy
Abductee/Contactee








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                      Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Cameron

From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
Date: 5 Sep 2001 15:40:13 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:08:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Cameron


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:47:26 -0500

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: 3 Sep 2001 16:22:47 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:44:28 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>>>Date: 2 Sep 2001 12:35:30 -0700
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>>Subject: Lara Johnstone FAQ

 >Grant,

 >>>Grant, you have finally managed to do a fine public service,
 >>>here, with your FAQ about Lara Johnstone.

 >>>This isn't about UFOs, but about far Left and Internationalist
 >>>Anarchist politics (the latter an oxymoron if ever there was
 >>>one). Ms. Johnstone and her associates have undoubtedly read
 >>>somewhere that UFO related websites are one of the most popular
 >>>categories of the world-wide web, after porn.

 >>>They are acting accordingly and will monopolize as much UFO
 >>>related bandwidth as they can, with the help of their
 >>>noviciates, such as Grant Cameron. The message is anti-west,
 >>>anti-US, anti-democracy, anti-anything in order to inflate their
 >>>egos to the enormous sizes needed to give meaning to their
 >>>current miserable lives.

 >>Give the a "commie behind every tree" dogma a rest. The cold war
 >>ended 10 years ago, and ravings like yours do nothiong but
 >>encourage more warfare and more death.

 >Much as it pains me to agree with Bob Young, he's right about
 >this, and you're wrong. Your response suggests to me that you
 >don't pay much attention to what's going on in the world.

 >The far left (many of whose members, you will be no doubt
 >shocked to learn, identify themselves as Communists) is an
 >active, visible presence on many fronts, including the ones your
 >friend involves herself with. The revived extreme left is much
 >discussed in political and cultural magazines (it was the cover
 >story, for example, of The New Republic not long ago), and
 >mainstream media have covered the issue extensively. Just who do
 >you think those people are who regularly riot at meetings of the
 >World Trade Organization? Confused soccer hooligans? Movie
 >extras? Pranksters? Extraterrestrials?

 >People who don't like the WTO (or other phenomena of the modern
 >world) have every right peacefully to express their views, of
 >course, just as others have every right to disagree with and
 >criticize them if they choose, without being accused of living
 >in the Cold War - which is where you apparently reside, since
 >that is, weirdly, the only frame of reference in which you are
 >able to place Bob's perceptive observations.


Jerry

Your post is simple red-baiting. It is McCarthyism, no matter
what color to try to paint it Jerry, or what name you wish to
give it.

A young lady writes a letter to the President making a request
of him. She receives no response.

Suddenly according to your analysis we have not the invasion not
of the aliens as hypothesized by Reagan and Clinton, but the
invasion of the "evil empire." Worse yet the little commie
buggers are going to take over the United States through the
flying saucer people. How clever!!

Never would I have believed this level of paranoia still existed
in the United States at the beginning of the 21st century.

She may be leaving for Washington at the end of next week. If
you need to report her to the FBI she will be either be driving
an old VW bus or will be on a greyhound bus. (she is pretending
to be one of the poor proletariat types). Be careful tho'. if
you check her website

www.bushufodisclosure.org

you will see pictures of her, and you will see that she has been
known to paint her face like a clown. The FBI should know this.
Maybe you can stop her before she gets to Washington and takes
over.

Grant


"The President did not know whether or not Gorbachev believed in
reincarnation. Perhaps the President in a previous life had been
the inventor of the shield." A Top-Secret Memorandum of
Conversation describing Reagan's defense of SDI to Chairman
Gorbachev during their one on one Summit meetings in Geneva
November 20, 1985







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                      UFO Sightings OZ file 06.09.2001

From: Diane Harrison - AUFORN <auforn@Ehome.net.au>
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:27:00 +1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:14:15 -0400
Subject: UFO Sightings OZ file 06.09.2001


UFO Sightings OZ file 06.09.2001

Thank you to all that have contributed to
these reports.
__________________________________

UFO Sighting Balgowlah-north Shore NSW

1800 Callin Code: 001321 14.04.2001

Date: 07.04.2001
Day: Saturday
Time Reported: 8:00pm
Location: Balgowlah-north shore
Reportee: E
Report given to nearest rep: UFO Society WS

Report:

On 7th April 2001 around 8:00pm, E walked to her lounge room
window to pull in the curtains when she noticed unusual lights
emitting from behind a white narrow, translucent cloud. The
strange anomaly appeared northeast above the ocean at a high
altitude.

The witness described the white lights as one large (like a
distant car headlight) and several smaller ones grouped together
on the left hand side of the primary light. She collected a pair
of binoculars to obtain a closer view. As E tried to align her
binoculars it was too late. The anomaly had vanished.

The event only lasted a few seconds.

E also mentioned a sighting she had around 5:00am late last year
(could not recall the exact month) when a "round" object was
seen heading north/northeast over the ocean at an incredible
speed.

Regards Attila Director UFOSWS affiliated AUFORN
______________________________________

UFO Sighting Gorokan NSW

1800 Callin Code: 001362 08.05.2001

Date: 27.04.2001-29.05.2001
Day: Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday.
Time Reported: 8:30pm
Location: Gorokan
Reportee: P
Report given to nearest rep: UFO Society WS


Message:

The sightings occurred over three nights from 27th April 2001 to
29th April 2001 between the hours of 8:30pm and 10:30pm.

P first had the encounter when he peered outside his bedroom
window and discovered five luminous objects hovering in the
distance.

As he went outside, he noticed that one of the objects seemed
closer than the others, yet still quite a distance away (P�s
estimate was between 1-2 kilometres northwest).

There was a thick cloud barrier and the four other objects
appeared to shift in and out of the haze. However, the closest
object hovered just below the clouds therefore giving P a much
clearer view of the strange anomaly.

He described the object as a metallic dome with three different
lights spinning from under its rim (red, orange and green) thus
reflecting onto its surface. P said that he also noticed that
the object had some kind of wing system on its side.

What made the encounter even more bizarre was the unusual fast
moving sparks or "pins of light" produced by the object-some
seemed to orbit the primary object and return to it while others
disappeared into the distance.

Peter believes that the anomaly remained visible for around two
hours before fading away into the clouds towards Tuggerah Lake.
This incident repeated itself over three nights without any
noise being produced by the anomaly.

Regards Attila Director UFOSWS affiliated AUFORN
________________________________________

UFO Sighting Corrimal NSW

1800 Callin Code: 001360 11.05.2001

Date: 23.04.2001
Day: Monday
Time Reported:
Location: Corrimal NSW
Reportee: Michelle
Report given to nearest rep: UFO Society WS


Message:

On 23rd April, around 8:00pm, Michelle and her sister were
taking a walk in the streets of Corrimal (10 kilometres north of
Wollongong) when she glanced up into the sky to discover eight
dull-orange lights travelling in a �V� formation.

Their sizes were somewhat larger than the background stars. She
said that the lights were travelling from the city (N-NW) and
heading southeast at conventional aircraft speed.

Michelle and her sister were facing towards the ocean at the
time of the sighting. She also noted that the �V� formation was
moving side ways instead of apex first!

"My sister and I take a walk each night," Michelle said, " and
watch the planes fly over head. But what we saw that evening was
not a plane."

The anomaly or anomalies were visible for a minute before
fading away.

Regards Attila Director UFOSWS affiliated AUFORN
__________________________________________

UFO Sighting Long Reef incident New South Wales

Hi all,

Just a brief thank you for your assistance. Also, Bill asked me
to summarize the Long Reef situation that occurred on 26th
June. I must admit that the sighting was too incredible for me
to be forthcoming. For weeks I dwelled on it not telling anyone
(except my wife and immediate colleagues).

The following report was constructed by a colleague who was with
me at the time of the sighting. I will not disclose his name at
this point. I think you will appreciate this event more from
another persons point of view. Regards

Attila

Field trip to Collaroy Tuesday 26th June 2001

The evening started with only 2 members attending.
Attila and T.

I met up with Attila in the Golf club car park as arranged at
1800. Being well prepared for a chilly night ahead on the coast.
Warm clothing & flask of coffee.

We walked up the hill to the lookout which faces North towards
Avalon & Palm Beach. After a few minutes we had set-up camp so
to speak on the other side of the barriers. Very naughty.

The night started quietly with the usual planes on their
respective flight paths. A couple of shooting stars where seen a
little while later high in the sky. The prelude before the storm
in no uncertain terms. An orange flash well above the Avalon
area was noted. Immediately after that Attila spotted coming
over our heads from east to west what Attila described as a
fireball. I only caught a glimpse in the corner of my eye of
something orange as I turned around.

Within seconds the fun started. An orange ball towards the North
was spotted hovering over the sea. Lit up with the regular beam
of the Palm Beach lighthouse. Binoculars & Attila�s Telescope
where quickly trained onto the object. A reflection of the very
bright glow was clearly seen on the waves. In front of our eyes
it just disappeared into the murky depths, just vanished. Attila
took some photos of the object, which I suppose, at arms length
about the size of a pea. We did not have much time to
congratulate ourselves before it reappeared in about the same
spot, but this time it was slowly hovering towards us. Once
again the reflection was seen on the water�s surface. Getting
bigger as it was getting closer. A Photo or two was taken. Again
with no warning it just disappeared into the sea.

We both screamed in delight of witnessing such an occasion.

This was short lived. At approx 2130 a large very bright orange
glow was seen above the trees towards the eastern side of the
point. Even more remarkable was the fact that this glow was in
the heart of a Triangle Upturned. Smaller very dim lights at the
peripheral extremes could be seen. The planes, which had been
flying over all night, stopped. Several helicopters were seen
going towards the objects position, but never got there. They
turned around and flew away.A magnificent sight.

Attila raced for some of the equipment and hotfooted to the
eastern end of Long Reef Point. I stayed with the remainder of
our stuff and watched in awl the ship. It moved steadily down &
south to settle base down (I think) just above the water & in
clear view of me through a cutting in the trees.

On Attila�s return we packed up & repositioned ourselves further
on the point. This position left us exposed to the elements, but
who cares. Seeing this object we forgot all the woes.

The view magnified was terrific. It looked like one large item,
sausage shape, hovering above the water with a similar shape &
size as its reflection. It shimmered as if a heat haze was
around it. The object was also rotating.

Attila took some more photos, but in the excitement ran out of
film. Air traffic control was contacted and asked if anything
thing had happened or shown up on radar. Deny, Deny, Deny was
the outcome with them starting to give Attila the 1800 number.

A large ship was spotted sailing south in the channel towards
Sydney. This passed in front of the glow. No way could this glow
have been missed. With that, Attila spoke to the coast guard.
Asking similar questions to that of the airport. It was stated
that calls from Narrabeen had been received, asking if a ship
was on fire. It was much later on our leaving that we noticed
the very top of the glow was the only thing visible from the
coast.

I don�t know why, but every so often I looked at my watch &
called out the time. After about an hour the object changed
shape. This time two smaller balls appeared to the side of the
main core. Spinning & shimmering.

Two hours passed & it was still there. Position changing a
little to the north. Once again it mutated into more pieces. The
main core & one below, two to the right side by side, & another
two top to bottom to the right of them. All glowing orange,
rotating & shimmering, clear visible through the telescope.

With the naked eye it looked like one solid object. Occasionally
a small right light was seen on the top towards the right.

Also very strange, shooting up from the object towards the clear
night sky, I saw very fast shafts of light. The same type of
light was seen coming down from the sky into the object.

Is this the first time a communication device has been seen?

Three hours had almost passed & it was still there hovering,
shimmering & rotating above the water. All planes that funnily
had by-passed this object had now stopped for the night. Clouds
started coming in over us, going towards the glow & object. A
few drops of rain had been felt. That & with Attila�s mount had
broken was a time to call it a night. Time 0030 we started to
pack up. I turned my torch at the object, which is quite bright.
Nothing happened. No response. Attila & I both felt as if it
knew we were there.

Walking down the hill we periodically turned around to see if it
followed, but no the glow just got smaller behind the curvature
of the earth. It just kept on drawing us to look at it. Bundling
into Attila�s car we quickly drove back up the hill. Hoping for
a response I suppose or even contact.

By now the wind was also whipping up. It was funny to note that
in the car park it was dry, as was the long journey home.

END OF REPORT

 From Attila Director UFOSWS affiliated AUFORN
____________________________________

UFO Sighting Wollongong New South Wales

1800 Call in Code: 01668 06.08.2001

Date: 05.08.2001
Day: Sunday
Time Reported: 1.30am
Location: Wollongong region
Reportee: B
Report given to nearest rep: UFO Society WS


Report:

B lives in a quite neighbourhood on the outskirts of Wollongong.
One early morning around 1.30am, B and her husband were awakened
by a distressed neighbour knocking on their door.

When she answered, B found her neighbour (call in code 01669)
full of commotion. She was pointing at a bright red light up in
the southwestern sky. The couple decided to join their
neighbour, who had a few drinks that evening, and watched the
bright object for a while. Apparently the object was seen to
zigzag occasionally in a small field.

Around an hour later, B and her husband were feeling a little
exhausted and decided to rest their tired souls . The following
day B met up with the neighbours. Apparently they were up
watching the bright light until 6.30am. The neighbour claimed
that the object eventually shot across the sky towards the east
and disappeared. B admitted that the final version of the story
was a little far fetched (which may have been induced by the
heavy consumption of a liquid substance.

The bright red light in the southwestern sky that was slowly
descending over a long period of time was in fact the planet
Mars. The zigzag effect as we all know was due to scintillation.
B felt quite happy with the response and said, "I thought it was
something like that".

Regards Attila Director UFOSWS affiliated AUFORN
___________________________________

CE4 - CE5 Report ? NSW

1800 Callin Code: 01662 4.8.01 NSW
Date: 4.8.01
Day: Satruday
Time Reported: 8.19
Location: NSW
Reportee: Ty
Report given to nearest rep: UFO Society WS

Report:

Ty; he's a disabled pensioner who claims that ETs appear in his
house, around his garden and just about everywhere since 1974 in
forms of entities. "They just seem to materialize," he says.
Ty's worked around a bit in his younger years as a fork lift
driver, gardener, cleaner. Anywhere he went, they just seemed to
appear!

He believes that these ETs are sending messages through
television and radio broad casts. He can pick out certain
phrases from programs and writes them down. Apparently he has
collected around 13,000 phrases that display a certain message.

He claims that significant messages/phrases were expressed in
the UFO Diaries television series. I asked Ty if he reads
literature and explores the world of UFOs through videos and
other available programs. After telling me that he reads a lot
of Arthur C. Clerk novels and an abbott viewer of the UFO
Diaries.

Regards Attila Director UFOSWS affiliated AUFORN
____________________________________

UFO Sighting Beaudesert QLD (description of a meteorite?)

Big bright florescent Green fire ball seen over
the Brisbane area

Time: 11.32 am
Sunday 2.09.2001
Size: close to 3 mils at arms length
Tail: close to 10 cm long at arms length
Disappeared behind clouds.
Direction: looking North from the south of Beaudesert
Duration: 2-3 seconds

Hi Folks

Rob and I have just been out watching a formation of 6 twin
engine prop planes flying in a V formation heading out to sea in
a North easterly direction over Mt Tamborine.

To our amazement just to the North of these planes appeared a
big bright florescent green fire ball "which fell from the sky"
it left a massive green and white tail behind it. WOW did anyone
else see it.?? --

Regards Diane Harrison National Director of
The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director
__________________________________

UFO Sighting Daisy Hill Queensland (description of a meteorite?)

Follow up 1800 Callin Code: 01713 2.9.01 Qld

Date: 2.9.01
Day: Sunday
Time Reported: 5pm
Location:  Brisbane
Reportee: Dave
Report given to nearest rep: Jan Stone

Report:

Location: Daisy Hill
Date and time of sighting. Sunday 2.9.01
aprox 11.35am Dave and his family were traveling
toward Daisy Hill Forest from the Pacific Highway when
they saw what looked like a falling star.  David said he
thought he could see a metal colour in the object,
he said it seemed to fall into the Daisy Hill Forest.
He said it had a Blue tail on it. It was in the East position
right in front of them.

End Report Regards Jan AUFORN Director QLD
____________________________________

UFO Sighting Atkinson Dam QLD ( description of a meteorite?)

Follow up 1800 Callin Code: 01712 2.9.01 Qld

Date: 2.9.01
Day:  Sunday
Time Reported:  11.35am
Location: Coominya
Reportee:  Mike
Report given to nearest rep: Jan Stone
Tel:

Report:

At around 11.35am This morning (2.9.01) at Atkinson Dam
on the road between Gatton and Esk, Mike and his family
saw what looked like a shooting star with a long greenish/blue
  tail behind it. It was in the East/North/East position, looked
like it was towards North,East side of Brisbane. Went out just
before it hit the ground. He wanted to know if anyone else saw it.
Please read my next report for similar sighting (report 01713)

End Report Regards Jan AUFORN QLD Director

~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi Diane, list
Further to your sighting Diane.

Today (Sunday 2.9.01) we received 3 reports
They were from Enoggera in Brisbane,
Bunya Mountains 200 klms west of Brisbane
and Stanthorpe 200 klms south-west of Brisbane.
All reports seem to relate to the same object.

All were seen between 11.30 and 11.35 am.
the different descriptions we received were -

an orange burning light with a blue green tail
a comet, white light with tail
a large flare with a ball at the end

The witnesses from Enoggera and Stanthorpe both
reported looking E/NE and the one from Bunya Mountains
reported looking East when they saw the object.

The object was reported to be very large and extremely
bright with descriptions ranging from "brighter than a mirror
reflecting the sun" to "like a welding flash".
All witnesses were extremely impressed with the size all
stating it was larger than their thumbnail at arm's length.
(that's big!)

All witnesses reported the light was coming down to the ground
at a slight angle to the North.They also reported it affected their
eyes, blinded, dazzled and hurt their eyes. Two of the witnesses
lost it behind trees and a hill, the other reported it just fizzling out.
All only saw it for less than 5 seconds.
No noise was heard at the time.

After some calculations we have estimated the object to
have come down about 200 klms west of Maroochydore
out at sea. So far it seems to fit the description of a meteorite,
except no one reported any noise at the time.
However taking the distance into consideration no
one should have heard anything before 5 minutes duration,
but should have heard something in the 5 to 20 minute
range after the sighting.
Probably by that time they were on the phone to me
so possibly wouldn't have noticed it.

We contacted the Channel 7, 9 and 10 TV stations.
Channel 7 was the only aware of it and were looking into it.

Sheryl for UFOR Queensland
_____________________________

UFO Sighting Murray River New South Wales

Name of reportee: Paul E
Day: 5th September and 28th August
Time: 7.00 to 7.15 PM both nights
Location: Barham NSW 50 mtrs from the Murray river near Vic border
Given to Investigator: Doug Moffett
Report:

On the evening of the 28th of August Paul, his girlfriend and
another friend were outside smoking and stargazing when they
noticed 2 dim stars zig zagging across and around a near full
moon for approx 15minutes before travelling away from them.
On the 5th of September whilst again smoking and stargazing,
Paul, alone this time, noticed a dim star that then became a
bright star in the sky. The bright star then dimmed before
changing speed like a shooting star with a blue/white tail, before
dimming and then turning bright red before disappearing.
The object performed several zig zags in the sky over approx
30 to 40 cms apparent length with height variation of plus or
minus 10cms vertically giving a 20cm approx apparent length
from top to bottom of the zig zag before disappearing and going
very dim. The object on the 5th of September zig zagged
for approx 5 minutes before slowly moving away from the viewer
toward space. The objects on the 28th August zig zagged for
most of the 15 minute duration of the sighting. Both objects
appeared very high in altitude to the observer, much higher
than a plane. I have no terrestrial explanation for these sightings
at this time.

Doug Moffett AUFORN State Director NSW
UFO Research NSW Sightings Officer

____________________________________

UFO Sighting Queensland

Follow up Callin Code: 01699 23.8.01 QLD.
Date: 21.08.01
Day: Tuesday
Time Reported: 9.50 am
Location: QLD
Reportee: Mr X
Director, Rep : Jan


Report:

Mr X had a dream the night after the crop circles appeared
on Tuesday 21st August 2001.  420 of the circles. Mr X says
he knows the message that the crop circles are trying to tell
us and this is his theory( in his own words):

Channel 10 News Tuesday 21/8/01 show 420 circles appeared
overnight in a wheat field UK all circles appearing to be linked.
Message from outer space or a reminder?.
If each circle = 1 month divide by 420 X 12 = 35 years
add 35 years to 2001 and you get 2036

On the news in 1994/5 it was reported that an asteroid belt was
going to collide with Earth in the year 2036.  Which corresponds
with the Wheat field waning and makes earths destruction on or
about 21.8.2036 if nothing is done about it!
The way I read this warning is the people from space are willing
to help Earth divert this complete destruction if we ask them,
but we have to ask because it is probably against their beliefs
to interfere with another planet unless requested.

Now that I have written this it looks and sounds silly, but this is
what I dreamed on the night of, 21/8/01 it just came to me out
of the blue and I remembered the news and broadcast in 1994/5.
Could this be true?
Could you please put this out on the list for others to comment.

~~~~~~

End of this report but please read on.

Mr X has asked me to forward your reply's to him, he has not got a
computer, so I will have to print them out and post to him.
All comments welcome. Mr X is a American Gentleman from Texas.
He had had many sighting in the past as a child, please read on
for his experience.

Sighting one
Age 7.  In about 1945 - Oakland California. Daytime -
In back yard, heard noise and looked up.  Air force testing
B-52 Bomber, saw a white streak fly across the sky and then
  a fireball and the B52 exploded.  A single parachute shot
from the craft, so I thought the pilot must have got out.

Sighting Two
1948 Oakland California, approx 0600. Going to do my paper
round on my bike, taking, shortcut through rim of large gravel
pit, when suddenly a large object flew up from center and
disappeared into the sky, this seemed to pull the bike from
under me, I fell off the bike, the bike disappeared, I suffered
cuts and bruises, I was almost knocked out.
My bike was never found.

Sighting Three
1951 Milton, Florida. Navel Air Base, daytime, Hiking in woods,
and laid down in clearing for a rest, saw strange formation of
thunder clouds in the sky, suddenly felt warm and relaxed
and went to sleep, waking up just at sunset, got into trouble
for being late for diner.

Sighting Four
1956 Night, Nr Britany? France, standing guard duty where
supply ships were being off loaded offshore.  Clear night,
Golden Moon, which I thought was reflecting off the water,
then realized the reflection was moving.  Watched it
disappear (about 4 minutes).

Sighting Five
1997 Labrador, Queensland. Night of October on or about 14th.
Walking to Pizza hut with daughter to celebrate her birthday.
We had just crossed the footbridge where coast guard is, My
daughter pointed up asking " what is that"? Looking up I saw a
long light blue streak shooting across the sky, more or less
above the Pizza Hut.  Watched until out of sight, No noise, just
blue streak, length of sighting 10-12 seconds.
End Report Regards Jan AUFORN QLD Director
________________________________________

UFO Sighting Runaway Bay to Morningside QLD

Follow up Callin Code: 01711 31.8.01 QLD
Date: 31.8.01
Day: Friday
Time Reported: 11.33am
Location: Brisbane
Reportee: Mark
Report given to nearest rep: Jan
Tel:


REPORT
Mark said he was driving home from work on Friday morning
(31.8.01) at 1.42am He was traveling from Runaway Bay to
Morningside. He was almost home, when he noticed a flash
in the clouds, he then saw (in the east) 8 lights come out of
the clouds and then disappear, then reappear again, and go
into a straight line formation. They then moved away from
each other, almost vanished and then moved back to the
line position again, then went behind a cloud. The defused
lights then shone through the clouds and were flickering.
One of the lights had a red glow around it.  There was no
noise. Mark stopped the car and watched for 25 minutes,
then they just went out and vanished.
Mark could not tell me the estimated size of the lights.
The hight in the sky was about that of high cloud height.
Position was in the East.
End Report Regards Jan AUFORN QLD Director

--

Regards Diane Harrison
National Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

E-Mail: auforn@Ehome.net.au
E-mail: ufologist@powerup.com.au
http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw

ADMINISTRATION:

PO Box 738
Beaudessert 4285
QLD Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Australian UFO Research Network Hotline Number
         1800 77 22 88 Freecall
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Disclaimer: A.UFO.R.N List Owners are not responsible
for the content or misuse of this list.
However, personal insults, flaming will not be tolerated.
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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 6

             Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Deardorff

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 17:09:43 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:15:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind - Deardorff


 >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind
 >Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:27:49 +0200

 >>Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 19:05:27 -0700
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Close Encounter Of The Raelian Kind

 >>Larry,

 >>I think you must admit that besides (c) above, there could be
 >>any number of other, sober reasons why this old friend might
 >>have turned against Claude (Rael), and invented a debunking
 >>story; such as:

 >>(1) He doesn't like the thought of cloning humans
 >>(2) he grew jealous of all the attention Rael was getting
 >>(3) he became friends with some French ufologists and learned
 >>that they automatically debunk people who claim to be
 >>contactees, so he could get on good terms with them by debunking
 >>Rael
 >>(4) it dawned on him that Rael's strong advocacy of free love
 >>among the members of his movement would promote the spread of
 >>AIDS, or
 >>(5) he became disenamored of one of the teachings Rael
 >>proclaimed, such as extolling his brand of Judaism at the
 >>expense of Christianity, or something else.....

 >>Without knowing anything about this "old friend," or who he is,
 >>one can only guess at such possible motivations. I wonder if he
 >>is the friend he called "Francois" in his 1986 book, who was
 >>allegedly in on Rael's claimed July 1975 sighting. If so, how
 >>likely is it that Francois would wait 25 years before objecting
 >>to Rael's use of his name in his book, or before confessing his
 >>own involvement in the hoax?

 >>So I would be interested in learning a lot more about this "old
 >>friend," as well as allowing Rael to tell his side of the story,
 >>before jumping to any conclusion about it.

 >Dear Jim,

 >It is very kind of you to try to defend the case of Rael, but I
 >can assure you that here in France no real ufologist, of any
 >opinion on UFOs, takes him seriously.

I have no desire to defend him, Gildas. But I hate to see
ufologists jump to conclusions based on no firm evidence. Who's
going to believe any of their findings if they behave like that?

 >Rael became famous overnight thanks to a popular TV program of
 >Jacques Chancel, and he has been a nightmare ever since, being a
 >regular guest, in his ridiculous white suit, on many popular
 >shows about UFOs. He is a very cynical man, boasting openly
 >about making a lot of money, and laughing at those who don't, as
 >was shown in his recent interview on French TV.
 >
 >On the contrary, his old friend looked very credible to me. He
 >was a quiet country man, smiling a little and somewhat
 >embarassed to have to tell his story.

I think one needs to go on a lot more than just how credible a
person may look on TV. Would you accept everything that every
witness of Steven Greer's has to say on his disclosure video
just because they may have looked credible?


Regards,

Jim Deardorff









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 6

                          Filer's Files #36 - 2001

From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 20:13:36 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:17:40 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #36 - 2001


Filer's Files #36 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
September 5, 2001, Majorstar@aol.com.
Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com,

FAA RADAR REPORTS ANOMALOUS OBJECTS WERE OVER NEW JERSEY.

UFOs HAVE BEEN OBSERVED in New Hampshire, New Jersey, Ohio,
Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Oklahoma,
Texas, Wyoming, Oregon, and California. Strange glyphs indicate
alien contact may have occurred in England.

ADMIRAL LORD HILL NORTON, a five star Admiral and former head
of the British Ministry of Defense in July 2000, stated, "What
I'd like to say is that there is a serious possibility we are
being visited - and - and have been visited for many years - by
people from outer space, from other civilizations; that it
behooves us to find out who they are, where they come from, and
what they want. This should be the subject of rigorous
scientific investigation, and not the subject of rubbishing by
tabloid newspapers." The book "Disclosure" by Steven M. Greer
M.D.

CARTERET: NEWARK AIRPORT RADAR INFORMATION -- The National
Institute for Discovery Science on July 25, 2001, sent a FOIA
request to the FAA requesting radar tapes (Tracon) for the July
14-15, 2001 time frame around the Carteret UFO incident. NIDS
also requested the tower voice tapes for the same time period
from Newark International Airport. A preliminary analytical
report that details unidentified flying objects without
transponders detected on air traffic control radar in the
airspace around Newark International Airport on the night of
July 14-15, 2001.

By far the most noteworthy aspect of this communication is the
large number of objects detected that DO NOT have transponders
(all commercial aircraft have transponders) in the airspace
around Newark International at the same time that an estimated
seventy eyewitnesses on the New Jersey Turnpike and a further
fifty (estimated) witnesses from Staten Island reported
unidentified lights in the same area of sky. A request to
randomly check for aircraft without transponders at the same
time on a DIFFERENT night produced the result that there were
no objects without transponders in the air around Newark
International airport on that second, randomly chosen, night.

This "control" study lends support to the notion that such a
large profusion of objects without transponders in the air
around one of the busiest international airports in the world
is unusual. Secondly, the fact that multiple objects without
transponders were in the same airspace while over one hundred
eyewitnesses on the ground were watching several unidentified
objects over Carteret might be of interest. Thanks to NIDS and
MUFON's Director John Schuessler. See report
at:http://www.nidsci.org/news/newjersey_contents.html

Editor's Note: Peter Davenport also requested a similar FOIA
 From the FAA. Our contacts with military and Coast Guard radar
operators have revealed similar information concerning
unknowns. A dozen anomalous targets possibly circling targets
flew over the Newark International Airport general area on July
15 around 12:30 AM. These anomalous targets flying through
controlled airspace illegally flew in wide variations in speed.
Most were moving relatively slowly around 60 mph. One was
moving at 250 mph and a high-speed craft flew through the area
at around 600 knots (690 MPH). Speeds varied from 580 to 620
knots (670 to 720 MPH) faster than any normal jet traffic.
Numerous slow moving targets were also reported that flew
slower than any normal aircraft traffic from 50 to 80 knots.

My discussion with John Callahan former FAA Division Chief of
Accidents and Investigation in Washington, DC revealed similar
radar data has been available for many years. He revealed that
during his six years in this position other similar cases were
investigated and the FAA was told by the CIA to keep this
information quiet. John revealed during the Disclosure Project
how he had radar proof of a UFOs over Alaska that were reported
by a Japanese Air Lines 747 flown by Captain Kenja Terochi in
1986. The 747 crew and multiple radar have spotted a huge
aircraft carrier size UFO over Alaska. TWA and other airline
crews also spotted the UFO. Captain Terochi announced his
sighting to the press and was soon relieved from flying duties.
The other aircraft crews were smart enough to keep quiet and
keep their jobs. This ridicule factor more than any other keeps
the true extent of the UFO problem relatively secret. Dr.
Richard Haines a NASA scientist happened to meet the Chief Me!
dical Officer for Japan Airlines and asked about the incident.
He was told a medical review board had decided that it was not
wise to have pilots who see strange things. Numerous near
misses by military and commercial pilots are kept quiet in this
way. Fortunately, the pilots of the UFOs generally react
quickly and avoid most mid-air collisions. When our aircraft
fall out of the sky and hundreds of witnesses report seeing a
UFO in near proximity, it is time to consider their involvement
in accidents.

NEW HAMPSHIRE FLYING TRIANGLE

On August 20, 2001, at about 10:00 PM, on a star lit night, the
witness saw a flying triangle shape object with a bright white
light at each point. The witness states, "I couldn't make out
any actual outline of the object or judge it's distance or
size. My best guess would be the size of a football field about
a quarter to a half-mile away." At first, it was stationary but
then started to move slowly down toward the tree line and
disappeared. The duration of movement was 15 to 20 seconds. The
Flying Triangle made no sound and this exact object was also
seen in February of 2001 in approximately same location."
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director National Reporting Center
www.ufocenter.com

NEW JERSEY CYLINDER

SEA BRIGHT/SHREWSBURY RIVER -- Peter B. Tarlton and his
girlfriend reports that on August 21, 2001, while fishing at
the Sea Bright Bridge, a glossy white ovoid/cylinder was
observed at 3:45 PM at an altitude of 1500 feet. The
object/craft approached the beach heading due west making a
slight curve to the southeast. It had no visible aero
forms/planes, was matte white to glossy white. The O/C rose
leisurely in altitude from 1500' to 2500'. Haze and smog
affected visibility; however most interestingly, it slowly
pulsed to an intense white-hot light/power up phase, slid
behind some haze, and disappeared. My girlfriend and I both
conducted additional observations of commercial jetliner
aircraft, in the same vicinity, under the same environmental
conditions, and the sun's glare was 20% to 30% of what was
observed with ovoid cylinder. Additionally jet aircraft did not
disappear; their aero surfaces were clearly and visually
distinguished. The same observation was not repeata! ble with
commercial traffic under same conditions. The object turned and
disappeared. I have witnessed over 25 craft in this area,
within five years. All of these 'sightings' have occurred
within a five-mile radius of Sea Bright Bridge. Thank you for
your efforts, excellent site, and contributions to the
Disclosure Project. Thanks to Peter B. Tarlton.

TRENTON -- Bill Fenton reports multiple UFO sightings over the
Delaware River and nearby woods on Wednesday, August 22, 2001,
and several days following. He phoned several times to inform
me that he and his friends were observing high speed lights and
a diamond shaped craft. Flashes of light would depart the craft
and fly into the area streaking past their position on Route
295 overlooking the Delaware River.

On Wednesday, August 28, 2001, I drove to the Delaware River
scenic overlook with Bill Fenton and observed several high
speed maneuvering lights between 9:30 and 10:30 PM. There was
fairly heavy commercial traffic moving north along an airway.
However, there were unexplained lights over a landfill across
the river in Pennsylvania. I also saw a green light flash over
Route 295 moving east. There is unexplained activity in the
area for many years.

OHIO MOTHERSHIP WITH FOUR UFOs AND TWO LOW FLYING TRIANGLES

BAINBRIDGE, Ohio -- Is it an alien invasion or just an optical
illusion? A Bainbridge woman is searching for answers reports
WKYC-TV Website in Cleveland. On two separate occasions,
Heather Rice of Bainbridge says she saw, and taped, a UFO. The
first time was August 29th, while getting her daughter ready
for school. The second time was the very next morning. Rice
says she saw a "mother ship" and four others surrounding it,
flying in a triangular pattern. "It looked like a circular
thing with windows with the red and green lights shining
through," Rice says. "It was spinning fast." Rice took her
videotape to Bainbridge Police. "We can take a copy of her tape
and then turn it over to NASA if they want they can take a look
at it," Lt. Jon Bokovitz says. "They've enhanced some video for
us in the past. Maybe they can determine what it was." Thanks
to Gerry at Gerry@FarShores - www.100megsfree4.com/farshores

MARIETTA -- On August 31, 2001, the witness was driving home at
9:20 PM, when the witness noticed a very low flying plane
coming closer and related. As it came closer I could see that
the object had a Flying Triangle shape with lights on all 3
points, and a flashing light in the center. It was moving at a
rapid pace and passed directly over my car. I slowed down, and
so did other cars as it came over and I could clearly make out
the shape of the object. It was triangular and the back of it
seemed to be concave. A second later, a second craft of the
same size and shape flew in formation with the other at the
same flight level. I watched both of them until finally they
disappeared behind the hills at which time I called my mom on
my cell phone. The Flying Triangles had a wide wing with a
concave back, and looked black against the moonlit sky. Both
craft had lights on the bottom corners and a flashing bluish
white light in the center. There was another blue light in the
! very front, above the white light on the bottom. These craft
were flying very low, I would estimate between 500 and 1000
feet altitude probably below safe flight rules. They were
traveling very fast about 300-500 mph, much faster than any
commercial plane I have ever seen. Thanks to Joe Trainor editor
UFO Roundup.

Editor's Note: Again we have eye witness reports of multiple
aircraft flying so low as to create a safety hazard to both air
and ground traffic. They seldom use transponders as required by
safety regulations. Similar reports have been reported in the
Chicago area and picked up on radar causing the diverting of
aircraft landing at O'Hare and Midway Airports. Kenny Young
reports that similar lights were reported over Milan, Indiana
not far from Cincinnati at 2:45 AM on July 31, 2001.

ILLINOIS DAYLIGHT CYLINDER SPOTTED

NASHVILLE -- On August 28, 2001, in the early afternoon the
witness was fishing on the lake at Washington County
Conservation Center. I heard what I thought was jet noise and
looked up and saw a long narrow object silver in color. The
craft had no wings or tail and had a long cigar shape, longer
than most jet liner fuselages. If this is not a UFO is it
possible that the wings of a jet may blend against the sky or
clouds and not be seen under some circumstances? There were
some high clouds and sky was visible behind the object. If the
lighting had somehow obscured the wings I would have seen the
engines. In addition, the "windows" were on the bottom and
visible to me. Airline windows are on the side. The area is
near several airports so jet noise is common. I am now listing
this as one of my UFO sightings, bringing the total up to four
since 1958. Editor's Note: Based on your description it is
difficult to determine if you saw an aircraft or a UFO. Most
likely the color of the wings, engines, and tail blended with
the background since they are often painted white or gray while
the rest of the aircraft is a more prominent color. However,
there are no aircraft with windows on the bottom and we do get
UFO reports of silver cigar or cylinder shaped craft
frequently. These have included near misses where the pilots
ducked down in the cockpit. The jet noise would indicate the
craft had jet engines, but we will probably never know the true
answer.

MICHIGAN LIGHTS CHASED

WEST OLIVE -- The witness was on the beach when he saw white
lights that he thought were bright stars at water level 70
miles out on the lake on August 13, 2001. The center light shot
strait upward probably 50 miles high faster than any plane and
stopped. The second object on the left moved upward, while the
center craft did a zigzag pattern while moving down the
shoreline in less than a second. The third stood very still and
then shot strait up very fast and disappeared. The first moving
object appeared to be spinning in place. They all went under
the horizon for probably two minutes. Upon returning they made
sharp, sudden, and fast maneuvers. I returned to the beach the
next night and saw a very bright light in the exact same spot.
The light started doing the same sharp, fast up and down
movements as the others. Within a few minutes five aircraft
started moving toward the UFO. It made very uneven flashes of
light, moved north, and disappeared. Thanks to Peter Dave!
nport and NUFORC

MINNESOTA TRIANGULAR SHAPED UFO

DULUTH - The witness reports he and a friend were heading home
from the Barnum Fair twenty miles southwest of Duluth on August
18, 2001, when we noticed a bright light in the southeast. My
friend thought it was Venus, but it seemed too large, too
bright, and too low. It was the only star in that direction! At
10:13 PM, it suddenly darted straight north for three seconds
covering a lot of ground in that short time. We lost sight of
it, but when we turned left towards home and came to an open
field, we saw the bright object again. It was hovering but then
moved upwards quickly and the light went out, and then came
back on again about ten seconds later. Thanks to Peter
Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com.

MISSOURI THREE LIGHTS DISAPPEARED BEHIND SOME TREES.

COLUMBIA -- I saw three lights on August 18, 2001, that looked
like running lights for some blacked out shape at 10:30 PM. It
occurred at night so the shape was not visible. It was very low
when I first saw it above my window and moved much faster than
any plane or helicopter. It made no sound. It buzzed my
neighborhood moved to hover above some trees, which I am
guessing to be about 400 yards away. After a while it went off
into the treeline and disappeared out of sight. Thanks to
NUFORC.

OKLAHOMA FAST MOVING PASTEL RED ORANGE OVAL OBJECT

YUKON -- The oval object was seen at 10:45 PM on August 18,
2001, moving east at a high rate of speed. It was a pastel red
orange color. It did not have any lights on it such as our
planes have. It was the solid pastel red orange color that
disappeared going toward Oklahoma City. I watched in total
amazement since I never believed in such things. I Believe Now!
It resembled the way a searchlight moves, but this was not a
searchlight.

OKLAHOMA CITY -- Lisa Ghariani sent an e-mail telling me she
was traveling from Anadarko on Highway 15 on August 19, 2001,
when she saw a singular oncoming light moving horizontally
towards her. At 11:45 PM, outside of Yukon I slowed a bit and
watched as the light got brighter and brighter. It finally came
directly in front of the car at about 40 yards away. It burst
into a very bright circle with four diamonds like points and
came directly towards me, then vanished. I pulled over thinking
it might be a motorcycle, but nothing ever passed or made any
kind of sound. Thanks to Lisa Ghariani LongShortrose

TEXAS LARGE UFO FLEW OVER HOUSE

BRAZORIA -- The witness related, "We heard it go over the house
on August 18, 2001, you could hear a huge rushing sound of
air." There was a loud continuous sound that sounded like a zip
gun or reverberating siren sound. The thing had to be very
large and traveling just above the treetops at 12:05 AM. It was
very low. There was the rushing sound of air, but no motor
sound. We live under a flight and know what aircraft sound
like. This was nothing like anything we ever heard. Please
advise.

WYOMING BLINDING FLASH AND VERTICAL TAKEOFF OF OBJECT.

ROCK RIVER -- On August 18, 2001, I was traveling northwest on
Highway 30 toward Rock River at about 10:30 PM, when an
extremely bright flash like an explosion occurred, and it was
as bright as full daylight. There was a bright orange flash
then an object left at an extreme rate of speed vertically and
escaped the atmosphere in less than 1 second! This stretch of
road is desolate and I do not know of any other traffic other
than another lonely motorist that I passed as I came into Rock
River. I have seen explosions before and nothing other than a
nuclear blast from my military training was as bright. I am
also aware of other incidents in this area for many years.
Thanks to NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

OREGON DAYTIME UFO SIGHTING

PORTLAND -- on August 17, 2001, two persons saw the glint from
a silver spherical object moving southeast at high altitude at
12:35 PM. Just before the sighting, a squadron of UH-60
military helicopters flew in formation northeast towards
Portland PDX airport. The spherical object appeared to have
movement on the underside, similar to a tail and moved rapidly
across the sky. I grabbed my partner and directed his attention
to it. "My god! It is a UFO" was his response. I grabbed the
camera off the table and got three shots before I lost it in
the trees. We ran out front of the house, and looked along the
expected path of the object, but it had disappeared. The
witness occupations are Chef/Teacher/Artist and, ironically
enough, a Radio Talk Show Host who specializes in the topics of
Paranormal and unexplained phenomena. Thanks to Peter Davenport
NUFORC

CALIFORNIA THREE FLYING TRIANGLES

Joshua Tree -- On August 24, 2001, there was a terrific
meteorite shower show, but nothing compared to the 3 black
'Triangles' seen at approximately 1:30 AM zipping around
rapidly and dead stopping in midair. Shirley and I missed it,
but not this man- (dalamjiwa@hotmail.com). This morning over
coffee at the Country kitchen inn, he excitedly told me all
about it. If he wasn't a believer before, he sure is now.
Thanks to Dex dexxa@earthlink.net

NEW STEALTH AIRCRAFT SIGHTED?

RACHEL -- AREA 51 researchers witnessed the new version of the
F-117A stealth fighter during the morning of June 12, 2001,
when they took a film crew from the Learning Channel for an
overnight stay up Tikaboo Peak. Just before 8:00 AM they
watched a KC-10 refueling tanker fly right overhead refueling
an aircraft about twice the size of a F-15 chase plane.
Standard F-117 and F-15s are about 65 feet long with a 43 feet
wingspan. This aircraft was almost twice the size of the F-15
with a more streamlined cockpit. It is gray, appears 100 to 130
feet long with a 65 to 85 feet wingspan, and is likely a
bomber. Thanks to Skywatch.

ENGLAND: ET PHONED HOME? ALIEN MESSAGE MAY INDICATE CONTACT

CHILBOLTON RADIO TELESCOPE -- Two new incredible Crop Circle
formations or glyphs appeared in Southsea, Hampshire next to
the radio telescope gives evidence of extraterrestrial contact.
The first glyph appeared on Tuesday, August 14, 2001, that
shows a framed alien face with large dark eyes and a small
mouth. According to an employee at the Chilbolton Observatory
on Monday, August 20th, a second glyph appeared inside of a
fenced area with a complicated binary code that seems to be a
reply to a message broadcast from the Arecibo Radio Telescope
in Puerto Rico on November 16, 1974. Astronomer Frank Drake and
Carl Sagan sent a strong signal into space towards M-13 a star
system 25,000 light years away. That radio signal depicted a
stick drawing of a human and the Earth's location in the solar
system. An apparent alien answer to the radio signal in a
pictogram has caused a heated controversy. Some say aliens made
the glyphs. Others claim hoaxers using boards to knock down t!
he wheat made the glyphs for an upcoming television program.
The glyph is very complex and tells us the aliens have large
heads in comparison to bodies smaller than ours, provides their
DNA, and that they apparently live on Mars and Jupiter if you
assume they are in our solar system. The glyphs are composed of
hundreds of little cells acting as pixels in the wheat. Charles
R. Mallett and the BLT scientist team have already made some
preliminary discoveries indicating the glyphs are real and not
hoaxed.

Genuine crop formations or glyphs are often observed with
plasma balls or luminous orbs over them, sometimes strange
sounds are reported, people entering the formation claim
physiological effects, large knuckle like or exploded nodes are
noted on the stalks of grain, meteorite dust is often found
within the fields, and electronic and electrical effects can be
measured. Formations made by tricksters do not have any of
these effects although; it has been suspected that some
tricksters may have seeded fields with swollen-node-stems.
Hoaxers could seed a formation with authentic
swollen-node-stems, but this would be a difficult process.
First authentic matching plants with swollen nodes would need
to be dug up, transported, successfully transplanted, and kept
alive at night without leaving traces. Crop circle
Electronic/magnetic sensors are able to pick up various kinds
of readings in authentic fields.

Bruce Maccabee wrote, "At my suggestion Paul Vigay has compiled
a graphic representation of the number of agriglyphs per month
for the last several years. It shows that the foot and mouth
disease restrictions on entering fields had little or no effect
on the numbers. Very heavy fines are given to be who enter
fields without permission. Experts on both sides are
withholding judgment until scientific analysis can be made of
the alleged alien message and its authenticity. Early
indications are that the glyph contains information that could
only be known by high order of intelligence. Some scientists
claim aliens would not communicate in this way, but they may
not use radio communication since it so slow. Thought waves
sent from the Moon by Astronaut Edgar Mitchell were virtually
instantaneous. Aliens may want everyone to see their handiwork.
Perhaps they have attempted to reach various governments who
have ignored them, and they prefer to openly communicate. There
are many possibilities and its too early to rule out alien
contact. See: www.cropcircleresearch.com,
cropcircleconnector.com/ http://www.earthfiles.com/earth271.htm

"THE UFO EXPERIENCE" WEBSITE NAME TO BE AUCTIONED "The UFO
Experience" annual conference has been ended and the conference
website closed down. The website's URL <<www.ufoexperience.com
will be offered for sale at auction via the Internet on e-Bay
on September 24, 2001. The listing will be in the "Domain
Names" section. (On e-Bay's home page, enter "Domain Names" in
the question box "What are you looking for?" and then select
the "Find it!" button.) The auction will have a floor of $500
and will last five days. Preemptive bids will be considered
before the auction. I reserve the right to cancel the auction
if a preemptive bid is accepted. John White, Producer "The UFO
Experience" Conference 60 Pound Ridge Road Cheshire,
Connecticut 06410-3412, USA Tel 203-272-2151. Fax 203-250-0501,
E-mail White8011@aol.com

LARGEST UFO CD-ROM IN EXISTENCE The Black Vault has unveiled
thousands of documents relating to the UFO phenomenon. Some,
have never been published in electronic form, nor have other
seen even the light of day. Declassified in recent years, this
CD holds over 5,000 pages of material, covering the past
half-century of government involvement in the UFO field of
research. From the CIA recently declassified documents to the
FBI. From the NSA to the DIA, this CD has a fantastic archive,
ready to browse with high-resolution scans. Easily read and
easily navigated, this research tool will be used for years to
come! To order, call toll free, (866) 828-2858 or outside the
continental US, (818) 886-0131. Order online today,
http://www.blackvaultstore.com

BEFORE YOU BUY OR SELL A HOME SEE MY FREE REPORT All real
estate agents are not the same? Some real estate agents are
part timers and inexperienced while others are experts. When
you are selling or buying your home, you need to make sure you
have the best real estate agent working for you! Remember, the
majority of people do not know the right questions to ask, and
what pit falls can cause major problems. Picking the right real
estate agent can be a wonderful experience, and picking the
wrong one can be a big mistake! Find out, " What you need to
understand before hiring any real estate agent!" To get a free
report, e-mail Majorstar@aol.com.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL for $30 per year by
contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended you for
membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2001 by George A.
Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the
files on their Web Sites provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue
that the item appeared. These reports and comments are not
necessarily the official MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish
to keep your name, address, or story confidential. Caution,
most of these are initial reports and require further
investigation.











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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 6

                Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 22:47:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:20:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -


 >Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 13:18:42 -0500
 >From: Evans <shooter@afterimagephoto.tv>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
 >>Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 17:18:58 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

 >>>Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 18:08:21 -0500
 >>>From: Roger Evans <shooter@afterimagephoto.tv>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

<snip>

 >Here are the facts: The Jews were no cowards, as Grant and
 >Sheehan suggest, and the Nazis were not stupid, as depicted in
 >shows like "Hogan's Heroes".

 >So, the question becomes, "How do smart people use the least man
 >power to confine and control a large group of people that aren't
 >cowards?"

<snip>

Roger,

You're the one using the term coward. I didn't see that in
Grant's post.

It looks like you're beating a strawman.

Controlling a large bunch of people demands some work, like:
starve them to death, strip them of all dignity and kill any
hope. It gravitates around destroying all possible sense of
security and the primary needs of the individual.

Torture 101 is about control. No need to be a coward to, on your
own terms, behave like one. Just being there is usually enough.

<snip>

 >Exactly the way I described and exactly the way it was done as
 >confirmed by the people that were there: The Nazis separated the
 >children and loved ones from the adults and used the threat of
 >death or harm of the weaker group to keep the more able bodied
 >adults in line. More to the point, _smaller_ camps that had
 >prisoners of war (soldiers) had _far_ more guards than the
 >larger concentration camps did. Now why would that be? Because
 >the same tactic would not work on military men in confinement
 >since loved ones weren't part of the equation.

<snip>

I do not deny the fact that this must have happened. But I also
acknowledge Grant's position.

I am not calling the victims cowards. You are.

I have too much respect for human nature to judge any individual
confronted with horror.

<snip>

 >Don't debate me on this, Serge. You are simply wrong and the
 >deeper you try to justify Grant's writings, the more you will
 >only lose respect from people that know the truth about the
 >camps. I have nothing else to say to you on this because the
 >whole subject sickens me to no end.

<snip>

And like all people who know the truth about the camps, you see
only 6 million Jews. What about the other 6 million or so
non-Jews in there?

The camps made nearly 12 million victims.

And they were _all_ people. Men, women and children caught in a
hell that could have been avoided.

Makes me sick also. But one needs to remember.


Regards,









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   Sep > Sep 6

             Re: Bainbridge, Ohio Woman Tapes 'UFO' - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 22:48:59 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:25:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Bainbridge, Ohio Woman Tapes 'UFO' - Mortellaro


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com<
 >Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:56:21 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Bainbridge, Ohio Woman Tapes 'UFO'
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>Source: WKYC-TV - Channel 3 Cleveland

 >>http://www.wkyc.com/news/morelocal/bainbridge/010904ufosighting.ssf

 >Listfolk:

 >Might Venus, Ladies & Gents.


 >Clear skies,

Dear Bob, other Used up Dopey-heads, the Rest of the List and
Errol,

The trouble with you, Bob, is that you cannot distinguish among
the various skeptibunky articles. For example, this particular
article should be conscrewed and being Pelicans. Dark skinned
ones. The WASP varieties are too wiley to be detected, except by
the malodorous fumes left behind. These odors bear smart
resemblance to the sour effluvium of rear end exhalations from
Grolsch and Seven Crown.

Larwence of Hatchdom, please confirm.

Further, Swamp Gas, whilst as malodorous as gaseous Grolsch and
Rye, is not usually associated with things in the sky. SG is
reserved almost exclusively with things which land. Even if
there is no swamp with which to produce the glowing fumeroles.

Venus No! Swamp Gas No! Kooba Si.

Frankly though, Venus is just as culpably, stupidly and
ingnorantly as vicious as "Slowly I turned."  As in worms.

(sigh)

I suggest (if I may be so bold) that you stick with tried and
true, Young Bob. It sounds better, more familiar and frankly, a
lot sillier.


Signed,

A Secret Admirer... you handsome devil, you.

PS: I lie, like a rug.








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 6

             Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 23:25:29 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:32:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Gates


 >Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 16:08:06 -0700
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

<snip>

The bottom line is people can starve themselves to absolute
death and it won't make any difference. Over the many years of
my life I have never seen _any_ hunger strike be effective
against a large corporate enity or government. This hunger
strike flat out won't work no matter how "positive" we think, no
matter "how we feel" and no matter how much of a so called
"difference" we would make by doing it.

My prediction is in two or three years after Lara has moved on
to other things we will still be discussing the latest move that
Greer makes; discussion the merits of the AA and MJ-12 documents
from time to time, not to mention breathless revelations from so
called insider, intelligence community sources who unload the
latest news and gossip through people who appear on the Art Bell
show.

 >+=============================================+
 >|  Hungerstrike Requesting President Bush  |
 >|  honor his agreement to tell the American |
 >| people the truth about UFO's, by supporting |
 >| the Disclosure Project witnesses to testify |
 >| about their extensive knowledge of UFO's, |
 >| advanced energy and propulsion systems, etc.|


Here are the facts. Bush never signed any kind of an "agreement"
nor did he "directly promise" that would disclose what he knew.


Cheers,

Robert









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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 6

                        MUFON-CES: UFO Flap In Turkey

From: Hannes la Rue - MUFON-CES <newsmaster@mufon-ces.org>
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:38:18 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:35:11 -0400
Subject: MUFON-CES: UFO Flap In Turkey


Dear friends,

We have issued a press release on the situation in Turkey.
Collegues confirm a kind of UFO flap at the moment. The
international media has shown interest in the events. A summary
of all availabe sources is available at:

Military pilots encounter UFO in prohibited turkish airspace:

http://www.mufon-ces.org/text/english/pr/2001-09-06.htm

As ever, this material is free for any kind of publication in
your magazine, newsletter or homepage.


Best regards

Hannes la Rue

News and Webmaster
Society for the Scientific Investigation of Anomalous
Atmospherical and Radar Phenomena - MUFON-CES, Inc.
http://www.mufon-ces.org










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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 6

                Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 06:59:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:42:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -


 >Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 10:16:13 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <shooter@afterimagephoto.tv>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 08:33:46 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

 >>>Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 21:12:51 -0500
 >>>From: Roger Evans <shooter@afterimagephoto.tv>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure

 >>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>>>Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:58:25 -0500
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>>Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

 >Alfred wrote:

 >>It's obvious that you have a real problem with scale, Mr. Evans.
 >>You can add that to your growing list of projected inadequacies.
 >>I've provided ample demonstration that I am willing to stand by
 >>my convictions, pay real world prices in real world ways.

 >What ample demonstration? You said, very clearly, that your life
 >and the life of your family are worth more than the information
 >Laura seeks. Don't make the boasts. Let her off the hook! Do it,
 >like the woman you admire so much is doing. But then, there's a
 >couple of reasons you won't, aren't there?

What a weird and wonderfully knotted Gordian puzzle you've woven
here! So typically black and white, either/or, and on or off.
 From the most innocent appreciation of the best personal bravery
signified by a person perhaps this century to a righteous demand
that I sacrifice my family to _your_ contrived and shallow
alter! All in the space of almost one breath! Astonishing!

 >I point to the
 >following:

Only the convenient "following"; only the points that you _want_
to address. Only those points that strive so futilely to keep
you in a little comfort zone of your own design... forgive the
digression, but the new reader might need to be reminded of all
the little "fallacial" dodges you employ in a written debate.
For instance, there's a lot of unheralded snippage occurring in
this thread presenting your specious argument in more
complementary light. And did I tell you how *touching* your
concern was? You're like a platoon of whining crocodiles...

 >I asked:

 >>>And what if her ploy doesn't work?

 >You replied:

 >>I think we all agree that it's not likely to _work_, Mr. Evans.

 >This is, of course, the _real_ reason you don't emulate her
 >task. You know it's all for nothing.

Attention is attention is attention and by any other name would
smell as sweet, Mr. Evans. Proactive effort is seldom _all_ for
nothing. If that wasn't true then you'd still be tilling the
fields of your Manor Lord, sending your daughters to that
selfsame manor for the sport of some *lord* and his dim bulb
sons... I can understand, though, how you just couldn't make
that out. I've already noticed your difficulty with scale.

 >More importantly, if _you_
 >did it and died for the knowledge it acquired (if any) then you
 >wouldn't get to be around to see what the big surprise is, now
 >would you?

I've admitted honestly that I lack the courage to that, Mr.
Evans... and I've flown down the barrels of some pretty big
guns, knowing beforehand I was going to do it... IOW you can
quit foaming like a porcine republican, your point is made. I
lack those guts... Still, I'd appreciate the courage of someone
who does possess them, despite your fervid display of easy
'concern'. Touching, really.

 >That explains the answer to my other question where I asked:

 >>>Who will you line up next to
 >>>take the fall?

 >You replied:

 >>I would hope that _you_ would!

 >Anyone but Alfred, right?

Aw! Humor impaired too? And you still try to fan this meager
little flame, don't you? It's not about me. It's not about Ms.
Johnstone... scale, Mr. Evans... scale! In as much as it is none
of your damn business anyway, pull back for once in your
negatively impacted little life and try to see the big
picture... a futile entreaty I know.

 >>For _my_ part, I can't start something that
 >>I don't think I have the juice to finish.

 >So, you don't have the nads to do it but feel free to criticize
 >others that won't do it, either.

Huh? But I've admitted that I don't have that brand of 'nads'...
and I can _understand_ why you wouldn't want to do it, but I
wonder what errant thumb you sucked to detect the described
criticism... another problem with scale, probably.

 >Does it matter that I also see
 >the foolishness of the act as a reason for not copying her
 >behavior?

Of course, just as you should see the bravery of her act and
appreciate her behavior. But you're so lock step and parochial
in your _own_ behavior you can't allow that. What a pity.

 >You yourself said above that it is more likely not to
 >work. But you are willing to stand by and watch another human
 >being die just in case it might.

And you, Mr. Evans, is it true that you've stopped beating your
wife? What kind of question _is_ that? It's certainly true that
the sociopathic indifference of the "dubya" administration would
ignore the death of hundreds before they cut their financial
throats...

...but as to standing by and watching? Well that seems to be a
role thrust down upon me. I'm compelled to stand and watch,
whatever my personal desires, None of this was _my_ mandate, so
count this as another item on your list of points poorly made.
It's going to be difficult if not impossible to watch.

 >And, as I asked before but you
 >never answered,
 >how will you know if the government is telling
 >the truth, anyway?

That doesn't bother you? You accept that? You, even shallowly,
admit here that government is not telling you the truth? Do you
see that? Is that par for your particular course? That's the
whole point and provenance of her gesture, whatever her outcome.
We're kept in the dark and fed shit, not to put too fine a point
on it, and Ms. Johnstone has decided she has had quite enough. I
guess you like the shade and the menu...

 >After all, I stated plainly:

...and shallowly, I might add

 >>>Like you, I believe in ET life.

 >and you replied, incredulously:

 >>I'll be throwing the BS card down on this too obvious loss
 >>leader, Mr. Evans. Along with this alleged belief you are too
 >>willing to except the cultural business as usual that has
 >>precipitated this mess in the first place. Your "beliefs" are
 >>suspect.

 >Typical. Why don't you check the archives, Alfred? You'll find
 >that I have consistently presented a pro-ET life position
 >despite my disbelief of some of the evidence presented.

Yeah, yeah -- you can demonstrate an *open mind*, you talked the
talk, careful not to walk the walk... quick with a sneer,
equally quick with a sneer and a smirk, passive aggressive with
mawkish "I saids" and "you replieds". I consider it all loss
leader beardmanship to mask a skeptibunky agenda... and I have
to push through a writing style reminiscent of spoiled creme in
weak coffee... but I digress...

 >I take
 >issue with some of the personalities involved in the debate on
 >ET life, but not the issue behind it. So, here you are, faced
 >with the fact of the matter and you don't know whether to
 >believe me or not.

Yeah -- it's true... I don't think you're righteous, balanced,
or remotely convincing.

 >Thanks for proving my point.

...A presumption facetiously made.

 >If you can't judge my sincerity, then how in the world can you
 >judge the government's even _if_ they finally gave an answer to
 >the ET question, something that you freely admit they probably
 >won't do?

Well in as much as I've evaluated you as a shill for the
back-stepping government that you admit is less than ethically
forthcoming, I find your sincerity disarmingly easy to judge...
next?

 >Regarding this load of manure:

...which you should suck from your fingers and spit into your
own garden so as to gain the utility of every poopy bit...


 >>What whining and off task dross is this? And your compassion is
 >>touching given that you likely don't have a thought for the
 >>25,000 children that starve to death on this planet every day as
 >>a result of your lack of the very compassion that you too easily
 >>trot out here.

 >Better put that stick back in the bag, my friend.

No -- It's nice out! ...think I'll leave it out.

 >I have been
 >involved in homeless shelters and feed the children programs my
 >entire life. Your typical tactic of trying to bend the
 >accusatorial finger and dodge the issue won't work here. I have
 >gone hungry plenty of times so that someone I saw on the street
 >could have my meal.

ROTFLMFAO! Scale, Mr. Evans. Scale. I'm 53... when I was 10, the
United States and world population was half what it is today;
the increase is by _design_. I hope giving up a few meals made
you feel a little better about feeding homeless children, but
with the employment of scale your likely self serving gesture is
revealed for the empty gesture that it very probably was... I'm
underwhelmed.

 >Here's the odd thing about this whole affair, dude: It is
 >clearly obvious that _you_ don't need convincing. You already
 >believe that ET life exists, just as I do (whether you believe
 >me or not isn't important).

No I don't believe you, but that _is_ unimportant.

 >Therefore, the only purpose
 >associated with this woman's act is to justify your beliefs!

You have pronounced that and so it is so? Hit your reset.

 >I
 >don't need her to risk death or die just to make me feel better
 >about my position.

Well -- how wonderfully convenient for you. And if she quit you
wouldn't have your personal flight envelope pushed any further.
Were it me, your suspect concern would be beneath my concern,
consideration, and contempt.

 >So, no matter how you want to paint the
 >picture, Alfred, the fact is that you are willing to stand by
 >and let (indeed, encourage) this woman to commit suicide for the
 >sole purpose of satisfying your curiosity about something that
 >you are already convinced of and that you admit the government
 >will not respond to and that you won't be able to judge as being
 >accurate!

If I thought she was an irrational idiot on a fools errand she
wouldn't hear a peep from me, Mr. Evans. All she gets from me is
respect for a grand gesture. Sorry if she's making _you_
uncomfortable. Perhaps you should explore that discomfiture a
little more deeply.

 >
 >You're a poet, Alfred. What rhymes with "obtuse", anyway? I'll
 >give you a hint: It begins with an "A".

...abstruse, abuse? I think it'd snap before you could get it
as far as you needed it for _either_ of those two words. Try
again.

 >
 >You can have the last word on this, Alfie.

You can call me Mr. Lehmberg, Mr. Evans. And as regarding the
last word? You can suit yourself.

 >I'm not going to make
 >this a protracted debate that lasts longer than Ms. Johnstone.

Seems to me she's an object only to _you_, if she can be so
airily conceived to last no longer than this debate... a little
slip-up on your part... a flaw in your mawkish concern?

 >Despite your illogical and ever mounting justifications,

...now that's a laugh coming from the weepy crocodile...

 >if she
 >keeps this up, she'll die and you won't be any more sure about
 >things then than you already are now. So what's the point?
 >

...the point is respect for a brave gesture, whatever its
outcome or result. The point is an evaluation of an unjust
status quo that this gesture indicates; the point is trust in
government; the point is forthcoming institutions; the point is
a level playing field; the point is the rule of law; the point
is due process... I could go on...

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the scurrilous.








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                            Cosmos Re-entry Today

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:41:27 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:43:50 -0400
Subject: Cosmos Re-entry Today


Ladies & Gents:

There have been many reports from commuters this morning of a
fireball about 5:54 A.M. EST and a sunlit cloud train visible
until about 6:30, visible over the East coast from Virginia
Beach, VA to Boston, MA.

There was a predicted reentry of a Russian rocket body over the
Atlantic coast of the US for around the time of this fireball.
The rocket was 1975-076B  (#08128) Cosmos 756 RB. See SeeSat:

http://www.satellite.eu.org/sat/seesat/Sep-2001/0052.html


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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                                 Space-Junk

From: Michael Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 15:36:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:47:16 -0400
Subject: Space-Junk


BC-Space-Junk
code:2
INDEX: International, Technology
HL:Old Russian rocket re-enters atmosphere, creates light show over
East Coast

TRENTON, N.J. (AP) _ A fiery object streaked across the sky over
much of the U.S. East Coast early Thursday. Officials said it was a
Russian rocket that re-entered the atmosphere after orbiting Earth
since 1975.

The SL3 rocket body re-entered the atmosphere shortly before 6
a.m. about 160 kilometres off Delaware, said navy Cmdr. Rod Gibbons,
a spokesman for the U.S. Space Command at Colorado Springs, Colo.
"The object was not designed to survive re-entry" and likely
burned up before any pieces could reach the ground, Gibbons said.

Gibbons said the rocket was one of 8,300 man-made objects the
centre tracks in space. Some 17,000 such objects have re-entered
Earth's atmosphere since the late 1950s, he said.

People from Massachusetts to Virginia reported seeing the object.
Charles Tekula, 49, a commercial fisherman in Long Island, was
with his son at about 5:30 a.m. when he saw the sky light up.
"At first thought it was a jetliner coming toward us, but then I
saw a smoke trail," he said.

"My son said it looked like a big, slow-moving firework across
the sky." Tekula said. "We were speechless, it was the most
fantastic thing I'd ever seen."

Officials at the U.S. National Weather Service and the Naval
Observatory had earlier speculated that the object might have been
meteor.

___

On the Net:
http://www.peterson.af.mil/usspace/reentry.htm

The truth can STAY out there
Send in a good FANTASY.








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                          Secrecy News -- 09/06/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@igc.org>
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:28:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:48:59 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 09/06/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
September 6, 2001


**      ANTI-LEAK PROPOSAL FIZZLES
**      CIA DIRECTORATE OF SCIENCE & TECH PROFILED
**      FOREIGN TARGETING OF US DEFENSE INDUSTRY
**      REPORT OF CIA DECLASSIFICATION ADVISORY PANEL


ANTI-LEAK PROPOSAL FIZZLES

The widely criticized effort to enact a criminal statute
prohibiting the unauthorized disclosure of classified
information ended with a whimper Tuesday evening when a hearing
on the matter was canceled and the measure was withdrawn from
consideration in the FY 2002 Intelligence Authorization Act.

A spokesman for Senator Richard Shelby, the leading proponent of
the measure, issued a terse statement:

  At the request of Attorney General John Ashcroft, the
  Intelligence Committee has postponed Wednesday's hearing to
  study the leaking of classified information. The Justice
  Department has requested additional time to study this issue.

It was a delicate way of conceding that the Justice Department
opposes the pending legislation as currently drafted.

This is a remarkable development since the very same anti-leak
measure was endorsed by the Justice Department last year (and
supported as part of the FY 2001 Intelligence Authorization Act
by then-Senator John Ashcroft). A Justice Department spokesman
declined to explain the reversal or to elaborate on the
Department's current assessment of the matter, which will be the
subject of an interagency review over the coming months.

Senator Shelby would not admit defeat. "This bill is going to be
back in the hopper, if not by me then by others," he told the
Associated Press. "This is not a this-year legislation,
necessarily. It's long-term legislation. This legislation is not
going away, because the problem [of leaks] is going to get
worse, not better."

Separately, the Senate is moving this week to adopt another
anti-leak statute as part of the Export Administration Act of
2001 (S.149, Section 602d).Unauthorized disclosure of certain
information on export applications, licenses and related data
would be punishable by a fine of up to $50,000 and up to a year
in jail. See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/s149.html#penalty


CIA DIRECTORATE OF SCIENCE & TECH PROFILED

Intelligence scholar Jeffrey T. Richelson has authored a study
of the CIA's Directorate of Science and Technology (DST) that
sheds new light on this little-known branch of the intelligence
agency.

Structured as a history, Richelson's book "The Wizards of
Langley" traces the activities of the DST over nearly four
decades and documents its diverse achievements that range from
the exquisite (the development of overhead reconnaissance) to
the criminal (mind control experiments) to the absurd (psychic
espionage). See:

http://www.perseusbooksgroup.com/perseus-cgi-bin/display/0-8133-
6699-2

Richelson has compiled a new collection of declassified
documents on the DST that was published on the National Security
Archive web site here:

http://www.nsarchive.org/NSAEBB/NSAEBB54/


FOREIGN TARGETING OF US DEFENSE INDUSTRY

Last year, no fewer than 63 countries were engaged in
"suspicious" intelligence collection activities directed against
U.S. defense contractors, according to a new report of the
Defense Security Service.

"Technologies generating most foreign interest in 2000 included
information systems, sensors and lasers, aeronautics systems,
armaments and energetic materials, and electronics," the report
stated.

"Information Systems remained the most sought militarily
critical technology category in 2000," the report indicated,
noting that an increase of more than 100% in "suspicious"
foreign targeting of modeling and simulation technology, HF and
VHF military radios, encryption devices, TEMPEST equipment,
firewall and intrusion detection technology.

"Suspicious" foreign collection activity includes "any request
not sought or encouraged by the cleared [U.S.] company, which is
received from a known or unknown source (usually foreign), which
concerns classified, sensitive, or export controlled
information."

A copy of the new report, entitled "2001 Technology Collection
Trends in the U.S. Defense Industry" and issued this week by the
Defense Security Service, may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/2001_trend.pdf


REPORT OF CIA DECLASSIFICATION ADVISORY PANEL

The first "tranche" of declassified historical records from the
Office of the Director of Central Intelligence is in the process
of being released, according to a report published today by the
CIA's Historical Review Panel (HRP).

The new report is singularly uninformative, by design. "Because
the HRP's advice to the DCI must be completely frank and candid,
we are not reporting Panel recommendations."

This is a polite falsehood that does the distinguished Panel
members no credit. It is clear from previous disclosures of
Panel recommendations and from the work of similar advisory
bodies that confidentiality is not required to ensure the
Panel's candor. Rather, the only purpose of the report's
deliberate vagueness is to shield the Director of Central
Intelligence from public criticism and controversy.

See the Panel report here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/advisory/ciahrp4.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation
of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@fas.org> with this
command in the body of the message:

subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691










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                  Re: Dearborn Analysis & Reports On-Line -

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:29:01 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:50:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Dearborn Analysis & Reports On-Line -


 >Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 16:59:01 -0400
 >From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Dearborn Analysis & Reports On-Line

 >>From: Tim Haley <haleyt@foodsci.purdue.edu>
 >>Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 17:37:23 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Newark Airport Radar Information - Haley

 >>From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 17:11:21 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Dearborn Analysis & Reports On-Line

 >>The Dearborn, Michigan Video Analysis and Report are now
 >>available online. See the respective links near the bottom of
 >>the page at:

 >>http://members.home.net/tlemire/dearborn.html

 >>I'm always open to sincere constructive criticism.

 >>Todd,

 >>I didn't see anything in your analysis that would address the
 >>possibility of a high flying military jet aircraft flying away
 >>from the camera with a view of its afterburners.

 >>Tim Haley

 >Tim, David, and Don,

 >Thanks so much for the feedback and I do apologize for not being
 >able to put the whole video online which would give everyone a
 >better understanding of the 'objects' flight characteristics.

 >Due to the estimated speed of the object and the length of time
 >it was in view pretty much rules out a military jet with it's
 >afterburners on.  An SR-71, using one of Tim's examples, exceeds
 >Mach 3 or three times the speed of sound.  Mach 1 is 330 m/s or
 >741.4 mph, the speed of sound. Mach 2 is twice this; Mach 3,
 >etc.  The SR-71 fly's at 33 miles per minute or 3,000 feet per
 >second. It fly's faster than a 30-06 bullet.

 >The object, just in the 40 secs that I have online, at the speed
 >of 33 miles/min. would've flown approx. 22 miles.  Now the
 >afterburners, viewed as a single light at this distance,
 >would've also appeared to have shrunk into invisibility at that
 >speed and distance.  Also, this object was filmed for
 >approximately 6 mins. altogether, which would've put the
 >distance traveled for an SR-71 at almost 200 miles!  Even at
 >Mach 1 the distance traveled would've been approx. 74 miles.

 >Without starting another long winded argument about flying
 >outside the boundaries of MOA's and military traffic patterns,
 >the area of this sighting does not lie along known military
 >traffic routes, with the nearest being that of Selfridge ANG.

 >I believe you're absolutely right Don, we're able to safely
 >eliminate this as a possibility, and I really didn't see a need
 >to address this particular issue within the report.


Dearest ebk, Todd L, Tim H., Dick H., John V., Jim M., Jenny R.,
Philip K., Dennis S., Jim E., Bob Y., et al., and All UFOUpdates
Listers.,

Hopefully, the evidence and "proof" we _all_ have sought for so
many years is _slowly_ becoming conclusive. I will be interested
to see when this news is broadcast, and how the world will
choose to treat these revelations. This is a phenomenal piece of
research Todd, and worthy of many accolades. Congradulations! It
is about time.


Sincerely,

Sue Strickland








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                       Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:48:17 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:52:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Rimmer


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:57:24 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 17:18:53 -0700
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ

 >How about giving a citation and source for the following
 >nonsense:

 >"In Cumbria, England Sellafield, a Nuclear power station as
 >heavily contaminated with radioactivity as Chernobyl."

 >And while you're at it, could you explain what the British
 >Government could have done with the thousands of dead
 >without anybody noticing? Please be specific, with known
 >examples.

This explains the foot and mouth disease outbreak in Cumbria.
Tony Blair is dressing all the bodies up in cow costumes and
burning them!


John Rimmer

Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                         Bainbridge UFO Video Update

From: Kenny Young <ufo@FUSE.NET>
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 15:55:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 17:54:15 -0400
Subject: Bainbridge UFO Video Update


Bainbridge UFO video update

In effort to find out details about the reported Bainbridge, Ohio
UFO videotape:

http://www.wkyc.com/news/morelocal/bainbridge/010904ufosighting.ssf

an attempt was made to contact the Baindbridge police department
referenced in the September 5, 2001 WKYC-TV news report. After
searching for such a department in the YAHOO 'Yellow Pages'
look-up, no such department could be found. Searching in areas
'beyond' Bainbridge, the nearest police office was listed as the
Greenfield Police Dept, 300 Jefferson St, Greenfield, OH
(937-981-4466). That office was contacted and the officer taking
the call informed that there "hadn't been a Bainbridge police
department for 10-years now..."

The Ross County Sheriff's department was contacted at
740-773-1185 and they also informed that there is no police
department for Bainbridge, Ohio and they were not familiar with
the name of Lt. Jon Bokovitz either. One officer in the office
was mindful to note the existence of a Bainbridge Township that
was in northeastern Ohio, near Cleveland.

Finally the correct Bainbridge Township Police Department in
northeastern Ohio (Geauga County between Trumbull and Cuyahoga
Counties) was looked up (440-543-8252) and Lt. Bokovitz was
located this afternoon.

He informed that he is the last qualified person 'on earth' to
comment on the videotape and that he doesn't usually stay up at
night looking for UFOs. "The only thing I see at night is the
inside of my eyelids," he said, while offering that the
videotape was "pretty compelling."

He said the videotape seems to show several pulsating lights in
a triangular formation that are mostly stationary. The video, he
said, was interesting to watch, but the issue was not a police
matter. He also said that his office does not retain a copy of
the video nor do they investigate anything of this nature. "This
sort of thing doesn't fall under revised code in Ohio," he said.

Evidently, word of the videotape came to his attention from a
co-worker who was an acquaintance with the videographer,
identified by WKYC-TV as Heather Rice.

Lieutenant Bokovitz theorized that the video might depict a
bright celestial arrangement of heavenly objects such as the
planets Venus and Jupiter along with the star Sirius. He said
that he had referred to an online astronomical website to
ascertain that at 6:00 a.m. on August 30th there would have been
such an outstanding celestial arrangement visible from
Bainbridge.

When asked about the WKYC-TV reference to his previous
consultation with NASA, Lt. Bokovitz informed that a videotape
of a local bank robbery, which was badly distorted, contained an
important still image of the bank robbery suspect. He had
consulted with NASA to have the video enhanced.

COMMENT:

This inquiry addresses three points of concern: 1). the location
of the event is in Bainbridge Township in Geauga County of
Northeastern Ohio, not the southern Ohio town of Bainbridge
(location of a crop circle addressed by news media in 2000), 2).
Bokovitz advised that his previous inquiry with NASA was not
relevant to any UFO-related issue and 3). The video itself may
be easily explainable and does not necessarily constitute
anything of significance.

Filed,
September 6, 2001
KENNY YOUNG









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                   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Wachenschwanz

From: David Wachenschwanz <ploot@atomiccafe.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 16:34:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 11:19:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Wachenschwanz


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 5 Sep 2001 15:40:13 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:47:26 -0500

<snip>

 >Your post is simple red-baiting. It is McCarthyism, no matter
 >what color to try to paint it Jerry, or what name you wish to
 >give it.

 >A young lady writes a letter to the President making a request
 >of him. She receives no response.


A _lot_ of people write to the President and don't get replies.
The most powerful man in the free world doesn't necessarily have
the time to respond to every piece of correspondence.

Especially about something like UFOs, and the demand to disclose
all information the government possesses on UFOs.

Ever stop to think the Prez may not have access to such
information? Just because he's the Prez he isn't privy to every
little piece of classified information the spooks have.

There may be much more important things to take care of being
Prez. Like vacations in Texas. Or drunken underage daughters. Or
even the missile defense system.

Or more probable: The Prez doesn't have time to make sense out
of nonsense.


David E Wachenschwanz









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                             Re: No Joke - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 22:11:07 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 11:23:40 -0400
Subject: Re: No Joke - Hall


 >From: Nancy Karr
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 >Subject: Re: No Joke
 >Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 18:19:30 -0400

 >>Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:41:12 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez
 >>Subject: Re: No Joke


 >>Subject: Re: No Joke

 >>Speaking as an abductee:

 >>If you multiply that 'feeling' of helplessness by a factor of a
 >>hundred you begin to understand the challenge that abductees
 >>find themselves confronted with. You have the luxury of turning
 >>it off inside your own head. Those who have actually experienced
 >>it have to -live with- the reality and memory of those
 >>encounters. They have no choice but to face it square on and
 >>deal with it. (And I mean 'deal for real'. Life or death, fight
 >>or flight type stuff. On the most elemental and primal human
 >>levels.)

 >I new to the List and wasn't sure if there were any other
 >experiencers here but it's so good to hear from you Sue and now
 >from John.

 >I'm a long time abductee/experiencer and just reaching the age
 >where I'm feeling tired of being 'messed' with and only knowing
 >about one quarter of the story behind it. I thought I was the
 >only one that was having a hard time finding a professional to
 >help me through hypnosis that wold be able to ask the right
 >questions... also that might have a mutual interest in the
 >information that I have within my head.

<snip>


Nancy,

Welcome aboard, and I hope you do find helpful information and
sympathetic people on the List. By all means, keep your sense of
humor.


Dick








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 7

               Re: New Developments in Linda Abduction - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:33:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 11:46:49 -0400
Subject: Re: New Developments in Linda Abduction - Velez


 >Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:11:22 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: George Hansen <gphansen2001@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: New Developments in Linda Abduction
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 21:17:44 -0400
 >>Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 12:34:58 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: New Developments In Linda Abduction

Hello All,

One mo' time!

Warning to the squares, long post ahead but well worth the read.
I have attached a part of Budd Hopkins rebuttal to the Butler,
Hansen, Stefula critique that is chock-full of information about
our newly-acquired Listerion George Hansen. That said, and
apologies for lengthiness issued, off we go.

Get the popcorn, this is going to be a goodie! :)


George wrote:

 >Mr. John Velez has made some allegations that deserve a
 >response.

 >Velez refers to me saying: "he was the guy responsible for
 >splattering Linda's real name all over the Internet four years
 >ago." He also indicates that I violated her "privacy" and "right
 >to chose (sic) anonymity."

 >At the 1992 MUFON convention Linda Napolitano took the stage and
 >told of her kidnapping by government agents. She did this in
 >front of hundreds of people, including media representatives.
 >She did not choose anonymity, contrary to the statements of Mr.
 >Velez. Ms. Napolitano voluntarily presented herself and her
 >claims publicly.

You ought to know by now that we don't use the names of
witnesses who wish to remain anonymous. Whether that anonymity
has already been violated by others or not. Every time you use
her real surname in a public forum someone who 'didn't know it'
finds out.

Out of sheer nervousness she may have used her real name.
(Understandable under the circumstances) That 'slip' does not
automatically grant the right for anybody else to broadcast the
information. People such as yourself who viewed the incident as
a "green light" to publish her name all over the place are
nothing more than crass opportunists IMHO. Some people will use
any excuse simply to justify their own self serving, unethical,
'gray-area' behavior.

With tongue firmly implanted in cheek: I know how terrible you'd
feel if Linda suddenly started being harassed by some whack-o
(or three) who managed to track her down because he/she learned
her real name for the first time in one of your posts. Think
about it. It's not so very far fetched a possibility. This is
the Internet. It can be like an electronic public toilet.
Anybody (such as yourself for instance) can drop in. If you
can't help Linda, don't hurt her either.

 >I make no apology for using her real name in my articles in 1992
 >and 1993. This was nine years ago, not four (as Mr. Velez
 >indicated).

I was referring to the last time _I_ dealt with this 'using her
real name' business. _Four years ago_ as I stated. In 1992 I was
not a part of "ufology" nor was I participating in e-mail
discussions.

 >Mr. Velez impugns the creativity and intelligence of Ms.
 >Napolitano when he says that she does not have what it "would
 >take to create and execute a hoax of this complexity." I have a
 >real respect for Ms. Napolitano's intelligence; unfortunately,
 >Mr. Velez and Mr. Hopkins apparently do not have a similar
 >respect for Linda.

You're a funny guy. ;)

What I _said_ was that Linda didn't have the 'guile' to create
or execute a "hoax" of this complexity and magnitude. Grab a
dictionary and look up the meaning of the word 'guile.'


 From the American Heritage Dictionary:

guile (ghl) n. 1. Treacherous cunning; skillful deceit. 2. Obsolete.
A trick or stratagem.


_Where_, in that definition, do you perceive a negative
reference to somebody's level of "intelligence"? You "impugn"
the intelligence of those who read these posts when you flaunt
your low level of reading comprehension as if it was something
to be proud of. Try responding to what was actually written as
opposed to the running dialog inside your own head. ;)

 >Mr. Velez states: "Budd isn't the low and deceptive character
 >that Hansen paints him to be."

 >Contrary to Mr. Velez's assertion, I have not suggested that Mr.
 >Hopkins is a deceptive character.

No, you only say that the whole case is a hoax mostly based on
'Night Eyes'. How do you separate Budd (as the
researcher/author) from your very public accusation that it is
_all_ an elaborate hoax? (Not to mention plagiarism.) And you
claim to say all that without automatically implying some guilt
or complicity on the author's part. Accusing a published writer
of plagiarism/theft can be considered defamation of character
and potentially cause harm to Budd's income earning ability as
an author. Any lawyer will tell you that Budd _could_ if he
wanted to, sue your pants-off. Unless you think you're certain
that you can prove (to a jury of your peers) that he (or Linda)
plagiarized Night Eyes.

You're an amazing dude. Not the sharpest blade in the drawer but
amazing nonetheless. :)

 >The above facts should be sufficient to allow the reader to
 >assess the credibility of Mr. Velez.

<LOL> The folks on _this_ List have had almost six years to
"assess my credibility" if they cared to. Considering the fact
that I am not _in_any way_ a part of the Brooklyn Bridge
abduction case, it is not _my_ credibility that is in question
however.  :)

Just for the record: I have never in any of my posts (check the
Archive) defended Linda's 'case'. However, I have, consistently,
defended Linda as a person. There _is_ a difference. And, if you
have something to tell Hopkins then contact him directly at his
Intruders Foundation and tell it to Budd himself. After all, it
was he that wrote the book. I don't have to explain or prove
anything connected to that case to anybody.

Speaking of :credibility"...

Let me ask you, "How is your co-author the "Mahdi" doing with
his homemade cult/religion that he founded, out West? How many
people has he managed to convince (to date) that the World, and
_all of us_, are only a part of a dream _he's_ having? C'mon
man, between the "Mahdi", all the Celtic crap, the
insensitivity, and the purely mean-spirited attacks on poor
Linda, just 'how seriously' are we supposed to take you guys
anyway? You've got some nerve to talk about 'credibility.'

How does the saying go? "People who live in glass houses,...."

I hope that folks do read your "critique" of the case. It's an
interesting one. The real shame of it is; you guys manage to
make/raise a few interesting and _valid_ points and questions.
But then the three of you subsequently proceeded to trash it all
by pooping all over yourselves with a display of malice and
nastiness, (and in some cases such as your partner the "Mahdi"
and his delusions - pure insanity) that you and your fellow
'researchers' directed personally _at_ Linda on the Internet.

If you had a case, you mucked it up yourselves with the
consistently lowbrow (nasty) public displays, posts, and
behavior towards Linda (and good research people like Jerry
Clark,) that you all demonstrated. I have read some of the
downright personal and hateful postings (AOL forum) that you and
your cronies fired at Linda over the years. The kind of
personalized garbage that would never even make it to a List
such as this one. You sir have proven yourself to be a
_genuinely_ mean-spirited person. The public's memory may be
short, but mine isn't. I'm not Linda. Or a 'girl' that you can
beat up on. I hit back. (Hard) ;)

For the straights:

Interested folks should take the time to go Greg Sandow's
website and look up Greg's well written analysis of the Butler,
Hansen, Stefula critique.

http://gregsandow.com/ufo/Contents/From_IUR_--_An_Analysis_of_the/from_iur_--_an
_analysis_of_the.htm

Budd also wrote an excellent piece several years back. I have
tacked part 1 onto the end of this post. The nanosecond I track
down part 2 on my hard drive I'll post it to the List. It's
long, but well worth the read. It'll give you a little insight
into 'who' this fellow George Hansen is who has 'dropped in on
us' out of the blue. He may be 'new' to many of you,... but he's
'yesterday's news' to some of us older List brethern. Read
Budd's piece. And as always, make up your own minds.

Back to you Mr. H:

I've said all I'm going to say to you George. I've been on this
merry-go-round with you and your screwy partner the "Mahdi"
before. No thanks. I'm not up for wasting my energy talking
around in circles with you guys a second time. I'm confident
that the good people here at UFO UpDates will get an ample
opportunity to see the kind of 'stuff' that you guys are really
made of without -any- input from me.

It's inevitable.  :)

I'm sorry I even dignified you with a response. After the
shameful way you've treated Linda and her family (as well as
good people/ researchers like Jerry Clark) over the years, you
honestly don't deserve it. Rage on if you will. From here on out
I trash any posts with "Hansen" in the header. As far as I'm
concerned you've had your "fifteen minutes".

John "That's my final answer Regis" Velez :)

---------------------------------------------------------

 From Budd Hopkins:

HOUSE OF CARDS

THE BUTLER / HANSEN / STEFULA CRITIQUE OF THE CORTILE CASE
BY BUDD HOPKINS
PART 1

Nothing in life occurs in a vacuum. The meaning of every act is
conditioned by personality and circumstance. As a researcher
into the UFO phenomenon with many years' experience, I know all
too well how the credibility of any investigation can be
destroyed, misinterpreted, or exaggerated by those with special
reasons to do so. And all too often these significant personal
issues are invisible to the world at large.

Those of us who work in this area face an enormous and
particular obstacle in this regard. The special nature of the
problem can be illustrated by comparing one woman's charge of
rape with another woman's clam of UFO abduction. In the first
case, if a woman claims she has been raped, some may believe
her, and others may not. Those who do not believe her may do so
for a variety of reasons: they've doubted her truthfulness in
the past; they feel she has severe psychological problems; they
regard the woman as having a drug or alcohol dependency serious
enough to render her judgment unreliable, and so on. But
whatever their reasons for rejecting the validity of her charge,
all agree on one basic premise: rape exists as a common criminal
act.

When we consider the example of the woman claiming a UFO
abduction, the difference is immediately obvious. Those who do
not believe she was abducted may do so for many of the same
reasons I've listed above. But here a major difference between
the two situations looms into view. Some may not believe the
woman simply because they do not believe any UFO abduction has
ever occurred anywhere, at any time. No matter what the woman
claims or what the evidence shows, for these people the incident
cannot have occurred; if she persists in her claim she is, ipso
facto, either lying or mentally ill.

As we know, a wide variety of people present themselves as
objective investigators of UFO reports. But in order to know how
open-minded or how mired in ideological denial any individual
might be, we must first learn what he or she truly believes
about the possibility that any UFO abductions have ever
occurred. Logically, anyone who accepts the possible occurrence
of such incidents must therefore accept the potential truth of
the many seemingly bizarre details abductees have reported in
the past.

In these experiences abductees routinely describe being
physically paralyzed, levitated in beams of light, and floated
through closed surfaces. They say they have been wakened in the
night and through some method of unconscious control made to
gather together with other abductees at locations their captors
have selected for them. They describe having been abducted at
intervals with the same human companions, made to suffer
amnesia, and placed with others who are "switched off" while
they are, themselves, taken into UFOs. Anyone who rejects a
priori, the possibility of such well-known aspects of the
abduction experience cannot fairly and objectively judge the
truth of any UFO abduction case.

One notorious believer in the impossibility of such events
rejects all those reporting UFO abductions as being either liars
or sufferers from mental illness. Despite his absolutist
mind-set he presents himself as an objective UFO investigator,
as able as anyone to weigh the evidence. Since nothing exists
without context, the motives of such ideologues are always of
some relevance. Do these true believers act out of religious or
political convictions? Are they merely publicity seekers? Do
they work for some sinister dis-information group within the
government? Do they have personal motives, such as revenge for
imagined slights or suspected ridicule?

The aforementioned true believer, famous for being as
open-minded as the late Ayatollah, once posited a theory of
exotic plasmas as the cause of many UFO reports. After his ideas
were rejected by mainline scientists and plasma experts, he
became even more rabidly opposed to the possibility that any
UFOs might actually be intelligently controlled spacecraft. One
can reasonably ask, then, whether such ideologues publish their
books and articles for reasons of score-settling, personal
vanity, or the like. As I've pointed out, nothing occurs in a
vacuum.

With these thoughts in mind, I would like to delve into the
background of the "Linda Cortile" case, a complex series of
events which I have been investigating for the past two years
and about which I am preparing a full-length study for
publication.

The case, which is one of extraordinary sensitivity, has been
publicly vilified as a probable hoax by Philip Klass, Joe
Stefula, Rich Butler, and George Hansen, though they have
presented not a shred of convincing evidence in support of that
proposition. The information on which they base their theory is
extraordinarily poor. They have talked with none of the
witnesses whose accounts corroborate those of the Cortile
family. They have viewed none of the four extremely important
supporting videotapes, nor have they seen any of the relevant
physical evidence. The are familiar only with the one complete
audio cassette tape that I have made public; they have not heard
any of the more than two dozen others generated by my
investigation. Of the 13 witness letters and six signed
statements in this case, they are familiar with only the four
letters published so far.

Despite this lack of familiarity with the witnesses and the
range of evidence, they have widely publicized their flimsy but
slanderous charges in the United States and Europe. They have
tried to build a reputation- trashing cases consisting of
nothing more than speculation and a particularly smarmy kind of
innuendo in which they go no further than to claim that this or
that remark or bit of behavior on Linda's part "raises serious
questions." Two of these men claim that they harbored serious
doubts about the case for many months before they passed them on
to such dubious personages as Philip Klass and James Moseley and
shortly thereafter circulated an article attacking the
credibility of Linda Cortile. As they well knew, I was the
central investigator in this case. At no time did they inform me
of these doubts before they made them public, nor did they ask
me if there were logical answers to what they referred to as
troubling questions. As I will demonstrate, there are clear
reasons for their devious and shockingly unprofessional
behavior.

  From the very first these men have had to shift their ground
  again and again as they discovered that much of their
  information and many of their assumptions were dead wrong.
  Instead of apologizing for publishing often egregious errors,
  they have simply moved on to new, equally uncertain claims and
  assumptions. They have, among other things, said the following:
  that Linda Cortile is a former actress; that I believe that the
  two agents in the case, Richard and Dan, work for the Secret
  Service; that the night of the abduction the two were
  accompanied by official British and Yemeni automobiles; that
  the two agents reported feeling a strong vibration at the time
  of the sighting; and that both subsequently suffered nervous
  breakdowns. None of these statements is true.

They have also claimed that Linda Cortile remembers being taken
underwater that night and that she subsequently described seeing
debris under the East River; that the agent Dan sent me a card
informing me he was in a mental institution; that I have a
financial arrangement about a book on Linda's case; and that the
two of us have argued over its terms.

They also claim Linda's son was abducted two months before her
November 30, 1989, abduction and that she neglected to tell me
of this until months later; that the wristwatch of the woman on
the bridge malfunctioned during the abduction whereas Dan's and
Richard's did not; that Linda's husband was not at home the
night of the abduction as Linda had claimed; that the windows of
the apartment building from which she was abducted are not
visible from the Brooklyn Bridge, so the woman at that location
could not possibly have seen what she claimed to have seen; and
so on and on.

Not one single statement in the long list above is true. Not
one. (I am refusing here to be caught up in questions about the
identity of the third man, so I am eliminating from this list
the false statements they have made about this particular
issue.) I can assure the reader that the items I've chosen to
quote above are selected virtually at random; there are many,
many others---lies, misconceptions, and false information---but
the list I've given is already too long. The point is simple;
the case these men have tried to build is a house of cards.

Experienced UFO researchers may well ask about the backgrounds
of the three men whose names follow Klass' on the above list.
Apart from their attack on the Linda cortile case, none of them,
to my knowledge, has ever published anything in the field of UFO
research. None has addressed a major conference, and none
appears to be working cooperatively within an established UFO
organization. Stefula and Butler were evidently active for a
while in New Jersey's Mutual UFO Network chapter, but no one
I've talked with has ever heard of George Hansen as a UFO
researcher.

The history of my involvement with Butler and Stefula, however,
is a crucial to the understanding of the context in which their
charges against the Cortile family have been leveled. Butler is
the only one of this group with whom I once had something of a
personal friendship. I met him when he approached me a number of
years ago because he felt he was a UFO abductee. (This statement
can be made here because Butler has publicly identified himself
as such.) At the time he seemed both sincere and naive.

I have no reason to doubt that he has, indeed, undergone UFO
abductions, but there was always a disturbingly self important
edge to Butler's claims. He insisted, for example, that his
experience as an enlisted man in the Air Force would allow him,
in the case of a major UFO sighting, to make a phone call which
would lead immediately to a scramble of jet interceptors. He
also informed me that he has invented something very important
for the military-industrial complex. (Since he asked me to
maintain secrecy regarding this as yet unpatented invention, I
will respect his request. Though Butler himself has participated
in the flagrant and unethical violation of the confidentiality
of Linda Cortile, her husband, and her sons, I will nonetheless
extend to him the same right of confidentiality all UFO
witnesses should receive as their due.)

I have made no effort to evaluate the reality of Butler's exotic
claims, though in the light of his personality, their existence
is not surprising. His ego is woven of many strands, prominent
among which are the natural enthusiasm of youth, profound
psychological naivete, and the partly earned hubris of the
autodidact. And as might be expected from these ingredients, the
resulting fabric is an oddly shaped and gaudy piece of goods.

Despite these misgivings I received Butler into my home, invited
him time and time again to my support-group meetings, and helped
him through the recall of his UFO abduction experiences. I gave
him hours of my life.

My first major doubts about him arose when I heard the details
of his theories regarding the abduction phenomenon. The aliens,
he asserted, were abducting people only of Native American or
Celtic background; no one else was a true or hard core abductee.
When he spelled out his theory, I nodded in humorous agreement,
pointing out that he had obviously made dramatic new
discoveries; he had stumbled upon the Irish parentage of Barney
Hill and the Navajo origin of all Chinese and Korean abductees.
I don't believe that he understood the irony of my remark;
Butler is not a man brimming with humor, and his boundless
self-assurance blinds him to psychological nuance.

Unfortunately, the absurdity of Butler's theory had an
emotionally damaging result when he informed a young Jewish
woman who had suffered from many UFO abductions that she could
not possibly be a real or hard core abductee. According to
Butler, the alien geneticists (like Dr. Mengele) evidently take
a dim view of Jewish blood and want nothing to do with it. This
young woman, who has suffered enough at the hands of the UFO
occupants, was extremely upset to be told by Butler that he
believed she'd been discarded on racial grounds. She was,
according to the meaning of his theory, both a reject and either
a liar or a mental case.

Now I'm not accusing Butler here of anti-Semitism, instead, I'm
accusing him of profound naivete, insensitivity, and
illogic---all three of which faults surfaced in his later and
equally absurd attacks on the Cortile family. Butler's racial
theory decrees that Linda Cortile, an Italian-American
completely devoid of Cherokee or Welsh blood, cannot possibly be
a real or hard core abductee. But since Linda, in previous
hypnotic sessions, had recalled the aliens' removing ova and
dealing with her reproductive system, according to Butler's
theory she must be, ipso facto, a liar. Logic therefore means
that since she is lying and 12 direct witnesses convincingly
support her truthfulness, there can be only one conclusion: she
must be an extravagantly skilled, Rasputin-like sociopath, who
has manufactured all kinds of highly detailed physical evidence
and trained 12 people---men, women, and even her own children---
to memorize a mass of extraordinarily complex information and to
lie about it with entirely convincing emotion.

At the outset I did not allow the ludicrous nature of Butler's
racial theory to discredit him entirely in my eyes. I made
allowance for his youth, his innocence of psychological
subtlety, and the fact that abductees often find it necessary to
invent outlandish schemes as personal coping mechanisms. What
truly shocked me about young Butler was the information I
received one day that he had anointed himself a hypnotist and
was now working with hapless New Jersey residents who believed
they had had UFO-abduction experiences.

This activity is not to be entered into lightly. My own
background with hypnosis was as follows: From 1976 through
1983---nearly eight years--- I was, as it were, an observant
apprentice to numerous psychiatrists and psychologists who did
the hypnosis for me in my UFO cases. For eight years I watched
their many styles and methods, and when I began doing the work
myself in late 1983 at the age of 52, I made sure that seasoned
psychiatrists and psychologists sat in on my sessions, to give
me criticism and further instructions. Butler evidently felt no
such compunction. Tyros who posit theories of cosmic eugenics
and who feel they have the power to order in air strikes are
obviously very sure of their innate abilities.

The second member of the New Jersey debunking trio is a man
named Joseph Stefula. I met him in October 1991 when Rich Butler
brought him, uninvited, to my support group. He may have
attended two of my meetings--- I don't remember---but at his
last visit I noticed that he was talking with a young, rather
fragile female abductee during a conversational break. As their
discourse ended and he walked away from her, I noticed that she
was in tears. When I asked her what was the matter, she told me
that the man---whoever he was--- had been badgering her with
questions about the upsetting UFO experiences she has earlier
described to the group. "Why didn't you do X?" he would ask, or
"Why can't you remember Z?" His tone, she said,
implied that he did not believe what she has been saying.

----------------------------------------------------------------

To UpDates "Listers"

I'll post part 2 of Budd's response to Butler, Hansen, Stefula
when I find it on this 30 gig sock-drawer I call a computer. ;)


Regards,

John Velez








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 7

             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Easton

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 03:09:03 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 20:14:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Easton


Duly edited from a recent UFORL posting, it does seem
appropriate to highlight the following questions in response to
Nick Pope's latest newsletter, as published on UFO UpDates:

Pope claims, concerning the recently released Ministry of
Defence [MoD] 'Rendlesham' documents:

"The documents come from a file (or more accurately, from
several different files) that I used during my tour of duty in
Sec(AS)2a, from 1991 to 1994".

As so many others appreciate, the factual anomaly which
strikingly asks to be resolved is whether any MoD file Pope
actually had access to contained, as he seems to insinuate,
those documents which have been made available.

Pope, for some reason, doesn't say this.

Straightforward questions for Nick Pope:

1. Long before the MoD file was made public, you claimed in an
inaugural, May 1996, 'UFO Magazine' interview that, so far as
you were aware:

"The standard line on Rendlesham Forest is that the incident was
looked into, and nothing of defence significance was uncovered.
The challenge, as it where, to the department, is that we have
never seen the analysis".

If you had never 'seen the analysis', then why are you,
seemingly, asserting being familiar with the documents Dr Clarke
has published?


2. You told 'UFO Magazine', that, had you been involved at the
time of 'Rendlesham', then "radar tapes" would have been
impounded and "RAF defence experts called in". These were in
fact actions instigated by the MoD.

Yet, when asked by 'UFO Magazine', "But this allegedly did not
happen in 1980?... you replied, "At the end of the day this did
not happen, so far as I am aware".

They further queried, "Perhaps DS8 did these things and there
was a general clamp down of information?".

You denied any knowledge; "If that had been the case it would
have inevitably leaked out".

How does this equate with your present recollections of the
MoD/'UFO' facts?


3. When more recently interviewed by Dave Clarke and Andy
Roberts, again prior to the MoD file's 'absolute zero cover-up
revelations', you acknowledged:

"I find Rendlesham bizarre; looking at the Rendlesham Forest
file, it starts obviously with Halt's memo and Don Moreland's
covering note and then frankly there isn't a lot. In fact, as I
recall, I don't think there is anything until the News of the
World and Chuck de Caro's documentary, some papers from the
Public Affairs Office 3rd Air Force about the handling of this
and then it turns into correspondence".

As Dave and Andy surmise:

"It is apparent that Pope did not have access to the documents
relating to the investigations made in 1981-83 by DS8 and RAF
(Ops) that were released by the MOD in 2001. These did not, in
1992-4, form part of the 'correspondence file' on the Rendlesham
case that Pope accessed whilst serving at Sec (AS) 2. Why Pope
did not have access to the newly-released material is a mystery.
Did he not feel it necessary to request a search for additional
documents, or did he not have sufficient 'need to know' to see
them? If the former was the case, it hardly supports his
contention that it was this incident in particular that helped
to persuade him of the existence of ET visits to Britain".


Given that it's comprehensively documented you had no knowledge
of the Ministry's research, is the true scenario as 'potentially
suggested' in a recent 'UFO Research List' commentary:

"Perhaps it's considered an embarrassment that in all his
comments about a case which Pope termed 'the Holy Grail of
Ufology', he was oblivious to the critical facts known to others
within his own department. [END]


I also understand that Graham Birdsall of 'UFO Magazine' now
states on their web site:

"In revealing how officials briefed Ministers to deliberately
mislead both houses of Parliament, what emerges from these files
is a 20-year-long official cover-up that stretches to the
highest echelons of government".

Why does Graham seemingly ignore the contrary fact that Pope
told 'UFO Magazine' in 1996:

UFO Magazine: Was there a cover-up?

Nick Pope: No. Not in the MoD - I think the MoD's response was
just ineffective.

UFO: That's a very big statement?

Nick Pope: Yes, but if something of that magnitude was reported
and simply placed on file, then what else can you say?


It's a confirmation Pope repeated, for example, in a later 1996
interview with CNI News:

CNI News: This seemingly irrational denial of significant UFO
events could be interpreted as evidence of a deliberate
cover-up. What are your views on that?

Nick Pope: I found no evidence to support a cover-up in Britain.
I think, without trying to sound too arrogant, that I would have
gotten a few hints in three years if there had been someone
doing my job but on a covert basis...".


A stupendous irony is Pope's response when, some years ago,
asked that same question by a certain Georgina Bruni:

Bruni: Do you think there's a cover-up in the UK?

Pope: I don't think it's so much a case of a cover-up, I think
it's just that there's no lasting evidence and I don't think the
officialdom know how to deal with it. I think that officialdom
is just not convinced that there's any real proof.


Doubtless these fundamental discrepancies will be prominently
debated by Birdsall, Bruni and Pope at the imminent 'UFO
Magazine' conference... or does Pope accede to a celebration of
allegations which he has so comprehensively refuted and say
nothing in 'defence'?

Will he tell the people...


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk







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   Sep > Sep 7

             Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Evans

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 21:09:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 20:18:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure - Evans


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 22:47:40 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Hunger Strike to Support UFO Disclosure -

Previously, I wrote:

 >>Here are the facts: The Jews were no cowards, as Grant and
 >>Sheehan suggest, and the Nazis were not stupid, as depicted in
 >>shows like "Hogan's Heroes".

 >>So, the question becomes, "How do smart people use the least man
 >>power to confine and control a large group of people that aren't
 >>cowards?"

Serge replied:

 >You're the one using the term coward. I didn't see that in
 >Grant's post.

 >It looks like you're beating a strawman.

Huh? Perhaps you need to re-read Grant's quote of Sheehan. He
wrote:

 >>>There is an analogy described by often by Daniel Sheehan. It is
 >>>of 1,000 or more Jewish concentration camp prisioners being
 >>>guarded by 2, 3, or 4 German guards with guns. The prisioners
 >>>just sat and waited to be led to the slaughter.

Get real. The meaning of what Grant wrote is obvious, Serge. The
analogy is that everyone could have saved themselves but didn't
because they were cowards. If this isn't the intended meaning,
then I would like to know _what_ the point was of using such an
example, which is fabricated from whole cloth.

You also claimed:

 >I am not calling the victims cowards. You are.

That is a blatant lie, Serge. I never said or even implied the
Jews were cowards. In fact, anyone that can read will see that I
clearly said they were not. You, on the other hand, read Grant's
quote about the Jews that "just sat and waited to be led to the
slaughter" and then wrote, without a moment's hestitation:

 >Grant is right on the money with this one.
 >It may not be hollywoodesque, but it is reality.

and this:

 >I also acknowledge Grant's position.

And what position would that be, considering the vile nature of
his insinuations?

How can you reconcile what they wrote, agree with it and then
write with a straight face:

 >I have too much respect for human nature to judge any individual
 >confronted with horror.

Some respect.

Sorry, Serge, but you're riding a lame horse on this one.
Sheehan and Grant are clearly trying to rewrite history just to
make a pointless point for their own politics. I am truly sorry
(and surprised) that you agree with them.

I said I wouldn't debate you on this but I'll be damned if I'm
going to let you misquote me and lay blame on me for something
that Sheehan and Grant said. I _never_ implied the Jews were
cowards; _they_ did and, frankly, so did _you_ by agreeing with
them. If in doubt, then re-read the quote that you felt was
"right on the money."

"they just sat and waited to be led to the slaughter"

Insulting. Truly insulting.


Roger








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                             Re: No Joke - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:44:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 20:20:23 -0400
Subject: Re: No Joke - Velez


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: No Joke
 >Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 22:11:07 +0000

 >>From: Nancy Karr
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 >>Subject: Re: No Joke
 >>Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 18:19:30 -0400

 >>>Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:41:12 -0400
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>From: John Velez
 >>>Subject: Re: No Joke

 >>>Subject: Re: No Joke

 >>>Speaking as an abductee:

 >>>If you multiply that 'feeling' of helplessness by a factor of a
 >>>hundred you begin to understand the challenge that abductees
 >>>find themselves confronted with. You have the luxury of turning
 >>>it off inside your own head. Those who have actually experienced
 >>>it have to -live with- the reality and memory of those
 >>>encounters. They have no choice but to face it square on and
 >>>deal with it. (And I mean 'deal for real'. Life or death, fight
 >>>or flight type stuff. On the most elemental and primal human
 >>>levels.)

 >>I new to the List and wasn't sure if there were any other
 >>experiencers here but it's so good to hear from you Sue and now
 >>from John.

 >>I'm a long time abductee/experiencer and just reaching the age
 >>where I'm feeling tired of being 'messed' with and only knowing
 >>about one quarter of the story behind it. I thought I was the
 >>only one that was having a hard time finding a professional to
 >>help me through hypnosis that wold be able to ask the right
 >>questions... also that might have a mutual interest in the
 >>information that I have within my head.

 ><snip>


 >Nancy,

 >Welcome aboard, and I hope you do find helpful information and
 >sympathetic people on the List. By all means, keep your sense of
 >humor.


Hi Nancy,

I'd like to second Dick's welcome and well wishes. Just try to
remain cognizant of the fact that as 'intimate' as this forum
can seem at times, that this is a very 'public' venue. As Homer
Simpson says, you don't want to "air out your stinkables" on a
public List such as this one. Use your better judgement and
discretion as to 'how much' you want to reveal in such an  open
forum.

Don't worry. If I ever see a 'shark' coming in too close while
you're out for a swim in the deep water, I'll come along with my
dingy and side-swipe em for you. ;)

Regards, and a warm welcome...


John Velez


                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."










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   Sep > Sep 7

                          Re: Future Contact - Hale

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 03:06:28 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 20:24:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Future Contact - Hale


Hi All,

If Errol will permit, I have a plug for my new CD.

As some of you may be aware, I am also a musician, who creates
electronic synth based music. I have my latest CD 4 track single
out, which you can purchase from myself. It is a slow ambient
piece, entitled " Future Contact ".

If you would like to get your hands on a copy, then please
e-mail me. So far I have nothing but good reviews! Priced at
just �6:99.

Please note: This CD will be played at the forthcoming UFO Mag,
Leeds UFO Conference, as it has been used for a UFO Video
presentation.


Best Regards,

Roy..

Read Down To Earth Magazine @
http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk









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   Sep > Sep 8

                       Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:48:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 03:25:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Clark


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 5 Sep 2001 15:40:13 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com


 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:47:26 -0500

 >>>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>>Date: 3 Sep 2001 16:22:47 -0700
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ

 >>>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:44:28 EDT
 >>>>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>>>>Date: 2 Sep 2001 12:35:30 -0700
 >>>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>>>Subject: Lara Johnstone FAQ


Grant,

 >>>Give the a "commie behind every tree" dogma a rest. The cold war
 >>>ended 10 years ago, and ravings like yours do nothiong but

 >>The far left (many of whose members, you will be no doubt
 >>shocked to learn, identify themselves as Communists) is an
 >>active, visible presence on many fronts, including the ones your
 >>friend involves herself with. The revived extreme left is much
 >>discussed in political and cultural magazines (it was the cover
 >>story, for example, of The New Republic not long ago), and
 >>mainstream media have covered the issue extensively. Just who do
 >>you think those people are who regularly riot at meetings of the
 >>World Trade Organization? Confused soccer hooligans? Movie
 >>extras? Pranksters? Extraterrestrials?

 >>People who don't like the WTO (or other phenomena of the modern
 >>world) have every right peacefully to express their views, of
 >>course, just as others have every right to disagree with and
 >>criticize them if they choose, without being accused of living
 >>in the Cold War - which is where you apparently reside, since
 >>that is, weirdly, the only frame of reference in which you are
 >>able to place Bob's perceptive observations.

 >Your post is simple red-baiting. It is McCarthyism, no matter
 >what color to try to paint it Jerry, or what name you wish to
 >give it.

I think you just made my case for me. Reread the last sentence
of my message to you. I am afraid I read your position exactly
right. You're still living in the Cold War. Hey, my friend, this
is the early 21st Century, in case you haven't looked at your
calendar lately.

 >A young lady writes a letter to the President making a request
 >of him. She receives no response.

 >Suddenly according to your analysis we have not the invasion not
 >of the aliens as hypothesized by Reagan and Clinton, but the
 >invasion of the "evil empire." Worse yet the little commie
 >buggers are going to take over the United States through the
 >flying saucer people. How clever!!

Oh, really? Gimme a break.

I don't know who "commie buggers" are, or what that phrase is
supposed to mean in the real world, but I do know something --
more than you, I infer -- about the revived far left, of which
your friend is clearly a member. As she, a citizen of a country
that is not (Lara's paranoid fantasy notwithstanding) a "prison
gulag," has every right to be. Just as Bob Young, I, and any
other informed observer have the right to characterize --
accurately -- her political allegiances without finding
ourselves at the receiving end of bizarre and baseless charges
about McCarthyism and paranoia.

 >Never would I have believed this level of paranoia still
 >existed in the United States at the beginning of the 21st
 >century.

Unfortunately, I would all too easily believe the level of
obliviousness you suffer concerning political extremism at the
beginning of the 21st Century. (Amusingly, Lara also boasts
about friends on the far-right [and hilariously paranoid]
militia movement. She's got all the wacky angles covered, I
gather.) Perhaps if you read something other than the most
paranoid sort of UFO literature, you might be able to post more
thoughtful contributions to this discussion. As it is, every
response just sinks you in deeper.


Jerry Clark









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   Sep > Sep 8

                           Sgt. Moody's Abduction?

From: Luis R. Gonzlez Manso <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 17:49:58 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 09:33:10 -0400
Subject: Sgt. Moody's Abduction?



I am interested in knowing if somebody has been able to track
the whereabouts of Sgt. Moody, after he was destined overseas in
October 1975, and got more details about his experience?


Luis R. Gonzlez Manso









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                       Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Kaeser

From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 12:55:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 09:35:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Kaeser


 >From: David Wachenschwanz <ploot@atomiccafe.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 16:34:51 -0500

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: 5 Sep 2001 15:40:13 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>>Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:47:26 -0500

 ><snip>

 >>Your post is simple red-baiting. It is McCarthyism, no matter
 >>what color to try to paint it Jerry, or what name you wish to
 >>give it.

 >>A young lady writes a letter to the President making a request
 >>of him. She receives no response.

 >A _lot_ of people write to the President and don't get replies.
 >The most powerful man in the free world doesn't necessarily have
 >the time to respond to every piece of correspondence.

 >Especially about something like UFOs, and the demand to disclose
 >all information the government possesses on UFOs.

 >Ever stop to think the Prez may not have access to such
 >information? Just because he's the Prez he isn't privy to every
 >little piece of classified information the spooks have.

 >There may be much more important things to take care of being
 >Prez. Like vacations in Texas. Or drunken underage daughters. Or
 >even the missile defense system.

 >Or more probable: The Prez doesn't have time to make sense out
 >of nonsense.


David,

I don't want to get into the middle of this, I'd be very
surprised if some sort of a "buck" letter wasn't automatically
sent to anyone who took the time to write to the White House, or
the President. After all, this is a political game being played
and you don't want to anger those who voted you in.....<g>

There are personnel who screen all correspondence, with generic
responses sent to those who ask basic questions, while more
complex questions are forwarded up the chain. But it is normal
for an immediate response to be sent, so that one would know
that the letter has been received. After all, that gives the
White House two chances to contact a constituent and let them
know they're on the job.

It is also common for individuals to write on the behalf of
others, so anyone can write in support of Lara's request, which
would cause the White House to take notice of the interest.

You are correct in that the issue of UFOs would not be given any
priority by the White House, unless it becomes a political
issue.


Steve









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                               Lara Johnstone

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 16:44:49 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 09:38:35 -0400
Subject: Lara Johnstone


1. Hunger strikes only work in civilized countries with a
literate population that knows what is going on and want
something done about it. Besides, the bald-headed, knobby-kneed,
squinty eyed little dude already did it. Imitation is the
sincerest form of flattery, but then again, Ms. Johnstone lacks
originality. Personally, she would get my vote if she bought a
dozen rejected Pit Bull terriers from Binky's Tavern and dog
fight arena, beat them senseless, starved them to almost death
and then ran into them naked with steak juice rubbed on her
body. She would definitely get some high profile publicity.
Unfortunately, she's too Greer'd up to think straight... then
again, maybe she doesn't think and just pretends she does.

2. How do we know Ms. Johnstone hasn't secreted a stash of
Twinkies in her toliet tank and laughing her tush off at
everyone whenever she excuses herself to go to the john?

3. Maybe it would be better if she invested in Jennie Craig
stock.

Man, there is definitely one born every minute. OK, I'm ready
for the next dog and pony show. Open the curtins!


Wendy Connors









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   Sep > Sep 8

                    CCCRN News: Formation Report 2001 #16

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Sat,  8 Sep 2001 00:48:10 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 09:41:57 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Formation Report 2001 #16


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

September 7, 2001


FORMATION REPORT 2001 #16 - VANDERHOOF, BRITISH COLUMBIA

Preliminary Report - September 17, 2001

Vanderhoof, British Columbia
September 6, 2001

Yet another crop formation reported today, by CCCRN field
research assistant Brian Vike (also of HBCC UFO Research).

Six circles in an oat field, near the same location as the
formation from 1998 (continuing the trend this year of
formations appearing in locations where they did two or three
years ago). Discovered by pilot Brent Miskuski on September 6,
with no entry pathways initially seen. Four are very close
together, with two others off a ways further.

Brian will be travelling to the location tomorrow (I am
currently in Kamloops, BC and may be able to get there although
it is some distance from where I am at the moment - PA).

This is the sixteenth formation reported now for 2001.










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             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:23:23 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 09:45:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Sparks


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 03:09:03 +0100

Hi List Members,

This post more than anything else demonstrates what a deceitful
scoundrel Easton is by his deliberate misquotation where he
suppresses Nick Pope's _very next_ sentence explaining:

     "I'm pleased though surprised that some Defence Intelligence
     Staff papers have been released, because although I worked
     with the DIS frequently in the course of my official
     research and investigation into the UFO phenomenon, this was
     a part of my MOD work that I could never previously have
     discussed with the media or the public.:

See Sept 2 post at:

http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/2001/sep/m02-015.shtml

Please keep this explanation by Pope in mind as you plow through
Easton's garbage that follows:

 >Duly edited from a recent UFORL posting, it does seem
 >appropriate to highlight the following questions in response to
 >Nick Pope's latest newsletter, as published on UFO UpDates:

 >Pope claims, concerning the recently released Ministry of
 >Defence [MoD] 'Rendlesham' documents:

 >"The documents come from a file (or more accurately, from
 >several different files) that I used during my tour of duty in
 >Sec(AS)2a, from 1991 to 1994".

[Easton as mentioned, willfully omits the next sentence by Pope
which states in part:  "... this was a part of my MOD work that
I could never previously have discussed with the media or the
public."]

 >As so many others appreciate, the factual anomaly which
 >strikingly asks to be resolved is whether any MoD file Pope
 >actually had access to contained, as he seems to insinuate,
 >those documents which have been made available.

 >Pope, for some reason, doesn't say this.

 >Straightforward questions for Nick Pope:

 >1. Long before the MoD file was made public, you claimed in an
 >inaugural, May 1996, 'UFO Magazine' interview that, so far as
 >you were aware:

 >"The standard line on Rendlesham Forest is that the incident was
 >looked into, and nothing of defence significance was uncovered.
 >The challenge, as it where, to the department, is that we have
 >never seen the analysis".

 >If you had never 'seen the analysis', then why are you,
 >seemingly, asserting being familiar with the documents Dr Clarke
 >has published?

[Easton as mentioned, willfully omits Pope's statement that:
"... this was a part of my MOD work that I could never
previously have discussed with the media or the public."]

 >2. You told 'UFO Magazine', that, had you been involved at the
 >time of 'Rendlesham', then "radar tapes" would have been
 >impounded and "RAF defence experts called in". These were in
 >fact actions instigated by the MoD.

 >Yet, when asked by 'UFO Magazine', "But this allegedly did not
 >happen in 1980?... you replied, "At the end of the day this did
 >not happen, so far as I am aware".

[Easton willfully omits Pope's statement that:  "... this was a
part of my MOD work that I could never previously have discussed
with the media or the public."]

 >They further queried, "Perhaps DS8 did these things and there
 >was a general clamp down of information?".

 >You denied any knowledge; "If that had been the case it would
 >have inevitably leaked out".

 >How does this equate with your present recollections of the
 >MoD/'UFO' facts?

[Easton consciously omits Pope's statement that:  "... this was
a part of my MOD work that I could never previously have
discussed with the media or the public."]


 >3. When more recently interviewed by Dave Clarke and Andy
 >Roberts, again prior to the MoD file's 'absolute zero cover-up
 >revelations', you acknowledged:

 >"I find Rendlesham bizarre; looking at the Rendlesham Forest
 >file, it starts obviously with Halt's memo and Don Moreland's
 >covering note and then frankly there isn't a lot. In fact, as I
 >recall, I don't think there is anything until the News of the
 >World and Chuck de Caro's documentary, some papers from the
 >Public Affairs Office 3rd Air Force about the handling of this
 >and then it turns into correspondence".

[Easton willfully omits Pope's statement that:  "... this was a
part of my MOD work that I could never previously have discussed
with the media or the public."]

 >As Dave and Andy surmise:

 >"It is apparent that Pope did not have access to the documents
 >relating to the investigations made in 1981-83 by DS8 and RAF
 >(Ops) that were released by the MOD in 2001. These did not, in
 >1992-4, form part of the 'correspondence file' on the Rendlesham
 >case that Pope accessed whilst serving at Sec (AS) 2. Why Pope
 >did not have access to the newly-released material is a mystery.
 >Did he not feel it necessary to request a search for additional
 >documents, or did he not have sufficient 'need to know' to see
 >them? If the former was the case, it hardly supports his
 >contention that it was this incident in particular that helped
 >to persuade him of the existence of ET visits to Britain".

[Easton deliberately omits Pope's statement that:  "... this was
a part of my MOD work that I could never previously have
discussed with the media or the public."]

 >Given that it's comprehensively documented you had no knowledge
 >of the Ministry's research, is the true scenario as 'potentially
 >suggested' in a recent 'UFO Research List' commentary:

 >"Perhaps it's considered an embarrassment that in all his
 >comments about a case which Pope termed 'the Holy Grail of
 >Ufology', he was oblivious to the critical facts known to others
 >within his own department. [END]

[Easton knowingly omits Pope's statement that:  "... this was a
part of my MOD work that I could never previously have discussed
with the media or the public."]


 >I also understand that Graham Birdsall of 'UFO Magazine' now
 >states on their web site:

 >"In revealing how officials briefed Ministers to deliberately
 >mislead both houses of Parliament, what emerges from these files
 >is a 20-year-long official cover-up that stretches to the
 >highest echelons of government".

 >Why does Graham seemingly ignore the contrary fact that Pope
 >told 'UFO Magazine' in 1996:

 >UFO Magazine: Was there a cover-up?

 >Nick Pope: No. Not in the MoD - I think the MoD's response was
 >just ineffective.

 >UFO: That's a very big statement?

 >Nick Pope: Yes, but if something of that magnitude was reported
 >and simply placed on file, then what else can you say?

[Easton deliberately omits Pope's statement that:  "... this was
a part of my MOD work that I could never previously have
discussed with the media or the public."]


 >It's a confirmation Pope repeated, for example, in a later 1996
 >interview with CNI News:

 >CNI News: This seemingly irrational denial of significant UFO
 >events could be interpreted as evidence of a deliberate
 >cover-up. What are your views on that?

 >Nick Pope: I found no evidence to support a cover-up in Britain.
 >I think, without trying to sound too arrogant, that I would have
 >gotten a few hints in three years if there had been someone
 >doing my job but on a covert basis...".

[Easton intentionally omits Pope's statement that:  "... this
was a part of my MOD work that I could never previously have
discussed with the media or the public."]


 >A stupendous irony is Pope's response when, some years ago,
 >asked that same question by a certain Georgina Bruni:

 >Bruni: Do you think there's a cover-up in the UK?

 >Pope: I don't think it's so much a case of a cover-up, I think
 >it's just that there's no lasting evidence and I don't think the
 >officialdom know how to deal with it. I think that officialdom
 >is just not convinced that there's any real proof.

[Easton purposefully omits Pope's statement that:  "... this was
a part of my MOD work that I could never previously have
discussed with the media or the public."]

 >Doubtless these fundamental discrepancies will be prominently
 >debated by Birdsall, Bruni and Pope at the imminent 'UFO
 >Magazine' conference... or does Pope accede to a celebration of
 >allegations which he has so comprehensively refuted and say
 >nothing in 'defence'?

 >Will he tell the people...

 >James Easton.
 >E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
 >www.ufoworld.co.uk


Will Easton tell the truth for once and stop deliberately
misquoting and distorting the testimony of people such as Nick
Pope and Colonel Charles Halt (from whose statements to Salley
Rayl he continues to delete whole sentences)?









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                      Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Haggard

From: Mike Haggard <mikeh@cybertrails.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:19:57 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 09:50:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Haggard


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 2 Sep 2001 12:35:30 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Lara Johnstone FAQ

 >What am I consuming?
 >I am drinking only liquids -- water with added oxygen (Cell
 >Food), fresh fruit and vegetable juices (mixed, with added
 >spirulina and protein powder)and herbal teas. I also once or
 >twice a week, have some wheatgrass juice. I also occassionaly
 >have soup drained of solids through a tea-strainer.

How is this a hunger strike?

When Gandhi went on hunger strikes for peace he would _stop_
eating. No water, no food, no tea, no grass... Medically N.P.O.
He would suddenly be dreadfully ill and people took notice. They
had a visual fright in his near death. I heard Lara on the radio
last weekend and she sounded as perky as Kati Courik.

The human body can exist healthy without _any_ solid food intake
for 35 days as long as you have water. Then it can go on for
much long, while damaging the body, for a time depending on the
health of the individual. I know, I have fasted for various
reason (non political) in this manner many times.

This description from the FAQ tells of a person on a diet, not a
fast or a strike. Sure she will lose weight and mass on this
diet, but she will not die. Chances are she could live many long
years on this very diet. So where is the threat to the leaders?

Gandhi used the hunger strike as a loaded gun and pointed it at
the power that be and said, "My death on your heads." This
little ploy is more like a pumped-up air gun with Lara saying,
"My palate-boredom and loose-fit clothing on your heads!" They
will not respond to this because they are not threatened.

But they would not be threatened by a real strike in this issue
either... but a _real_ strike would at least get the media
attention that is currently lacking.


The Haggard,

Winslow, AZ









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                     Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 23:03:34 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 09:52:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Mortellaro


 >From: David Wachenschwanz <ploot@atomiccafe.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 16:34:51 -0500


 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: 5 Sep 2001 15:40:13 -0700
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>>Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:47:26 -0500

 ><snip>

 >>Your post is simple red-baiting. It is McCarthyism, no matter
 >>what color to try to paint it Jerry, or what name you wish to
 >>give it.

 >>A young lady writes a letter to the President making a request
 >>of him. She receives no response.


 >A _lot_ of people write to the President and don't get replies.
 >The most powerful man in the free world doesn't necessarily have
 >the time to respond to every piece of correspondence.

 >Especially about something like UFOs, and the demand to disclose
 >all information the government possesses on UFOs.

 >Ever stop to think the Prez may not have access to such
 >information? Just because he's the Prez he isn't privy to every
 >little piece of classified information the spooks have.

 >There may be much more important things to take care of being
 >Prez. Like vacations in Texas. Or drunken underage daughters. Or
 >even the missile defense system.

 >Or more probable: The Prez doesn't have time to make sense out
 >of nonsense.

One may assign the "Prez" with attributes such as inebriated
children, Texas vacations (highly improbable, as he happens to
live there... [sigh]) and then assign the attribute of being a
sensible man, whilst the nonesense (presumably) is the UFO
scenario.

Did I get that write? Or are you from the same place as Gesundt,
which is to say, Brobdignag?

Eh?

 >David E Wachenschwanz

Jim (tank top) Morty









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                  "US Has Heavily Researched Anti-Gravity"

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 05:25:53 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 09:57:33 -0400
Subject: "US Has Heavily Researched Anti-Gravity"


This was sent to me by a friend and I thought it would be of
interest here. Any comments?

Source: Yahoo!News

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010907/sc/arms_gravity_dc_1.html


Friday September 7 12:15 PM ET

US Has Heavily Researched Anti-Gravity, Book Says

By Bradley Perrett

LONDON (Reuters) - The U.S. military may have conducted serious
research into anti-gravity based on Nazi studies, a top defense
journalist suggests in a new book.

In ``The Hunt for Zero Point,'' journalist Nick Cook says, based
on a decade's research, he believes by the 1950s the U.S. was
seriously working on anti-gravity ``electrogravitics''
technology, which would lift and propel vehicles without wings
or thrust.

``I feel intuitively that some vehicle has been developed,
particularly given that there is this wealth of scientific data
out there, and the Americans have never been slow to pick up on
this sort of science,'' Cook, the aerospace consultant for
Jane's Defense Weekly, told Reuters in an interview.

Cook uncovered reports and sightings of a Nazi research device
that had been hidden in a remote part of Poland, where it had
apparently been supplied with great quantities of electricity --
which an electrogravitic experiment would require.

Curiously, barely a hint of such Nazi research appeared after
the war, suggesting that whoever captured it -- probably the
United States -- immediately stamped it ``secret,'' he said.

Cook noted that, as a respected expert, he is risking his
reputation by writing seriously about a technology associated
with UFOs, which most scientists dismiss as science fiction
embraced by ``hocus-pocus'' believers.

The United States is known to have a huge budget for so called
``black projects,'' because it spends more on defense than can
be accounted for by adding up the value of public programs.

Cook admitted he cannot produce a conclusive case. But that is
the nature of black projects, in which even the workers usually
have no idea what they are working on.

In 1947, amid the early craze of UFO reports, an air force
general reported on the possibility of the United States
building disc-shaped objects with extreme rates of climb and
maneuverability but without noise or evident propulsion.

In the mid 1950s electrogravitics was the subject of a few press
reports, including one that described work by most of the United
States' major defense contractors, Cook reported.

And then it all went quiet -- just as stealth technology
suddenly disappeared from view in the mid 1970s, only to
re-emerge as operational aircraft in the late 1980s.

Academic papers on the subject have mysteriously disappeared
from libraries.

There is still no firm evidence that electrogravitics is more
than science fiction. Civilian scientists and amateurs have
experimented with it, and while some have reported success, no
one seems to have reproduced their results to prove that it
works.

---


Todd Lemire
Michigan UFO CENTRAL









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             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke

From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 11:14:01 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 10:01:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 03:09:03 +0100


Hi James,

 >I also understand that Graham Birdsall of 'UFO Magazine' now
 >states on their web site:

 >"In revealing how officials briefed Ministers to deliberately
 >mislead both houses of Parliament, what emerges from these files
 >is a 20-year-long official cover-up that stretches to the
 >highest echelons of government".

 >Why does Graham seemingly ignore the contrary fact that Pope
 >told 'UFO Magazine' in 1996:

 >UFO Magazine: Was there a cover-up?

 >Nick Pope: No. Not in the MoD - I think the MoD's response was
 >just ineffective.


I think the answer is quite simple - "Cover Up" sells copies of
magazines, "No Cover-up" doesn't!

Graham has a business to run - and as Carl Jung wrote "...news
affirmining the existence of UFOs welcome, but that scepticism
seems to be undesirable..to believe that UFOs are real suits the
general opinion, whereas disbelief is to be discouraged."

 >A stupendous irony is Pope's response when, some years ago,
 >asked that same question by a certain Georgina Bruni:

 >Bruni: Do you think there's a cover-up in the UK?

 >Pope: I don't think it's so much a case of a cover-up

The relationship between the standpoints and motivations of of
Bruni and Pope are interesting, and bear close examination.

Pope claims there is no MOD cover up over Rendlesham, yet writes
a forward to a book by Bruni whose main argument is that there
was a cover-up.

Bruni tells us that we should not believe anything MOD employees
tell us - particularly, it seems, if they tell us there is no
cover-up - but she appears to accept everything Pope tells her,
despite the glaring contradictions and internal inconsistencies.

If Bruni was the objective reporter of the Rendlesham case she
claims to be, should she not have been asking some "awkward
questions" rather than appearing to act as one of Pope's
publicity mouthpieces?

As those in the media know, becoming too close to one's sources
can compromise the integrity of your material.

Could the explanation be more to do with "having a business to
run" rather than "getting to the truth" as they claim,
particularly if the truth is that there was no cover-up. (See
above: cover up sells books, no cover-up dosen't).

Confusing? Clearly someone is "making it up as they go along",
and must think the ufological public are dimwits. While Nick is
a nice guy and has made a significant contribution to the
campaign to get the MOD to be more open about its dealings with
UFOs, I feel he has come to believe his own hype - ie that he
was the MOD's answer to "Fox Mulder", which is what the British
Press would call "spin", something one would have thought
someone with a background in public relations, as Bruni has,
would have recognised immediately.

My conclusion after spending several hours this April
questioning Nick Pope in great detail is that his knowledge of
the MOD's involvement in UFO investigation, and of the
Rendlesham incident, is largely confined to what he read _after_
leaving Sec (AS)2a in 1994, or simply what he is allowed to say
as a result of the OSA.

Anyone reading his book 'Open Skies Closed Minds' will reach the
conclusion that his knowledge of UFOs was gleaned largely from
reading the UFO literature, rather than from any "inside
information" he had access to whilst serving at AS(Sec) 2a.

As an example, on pg 68 of the paperback edition he mentions the
famous 1956 radar/visual incident as occurring at "Lakenheath in
Sussex." I hope someone has since reminded the MOD that RAF
Lakenheath is actually near Cambridge, Sussex being on the south
coast.

But as we all know, they "can't tell the
people."!



Cheers

Dave Clarke

"The Skeptick doth neither affirm, neither denie any position;
but doubteth of it."  --Sir Walter Raleigh


www.flyingsaucery.com








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                         Re: Lara Johnstone - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 07:12:56 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 10:33:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone - Hatch


 >From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Lara Johnstone
 >Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 16:44:49 -0600

 >1. Hunger strikes only work in civilized countries with a
 >literate population that knows what is going on and want
 >something done about it. Besides, the bald-headed, knobby-kneed,
 >squinty eyed little dude already did it. Imitation is the
 >sincerest form of flattery, but then again, Ms. Johnstone lacks
 >originality. Personally, she would get my vote if she bought a
 >dozen rejected Pit Bull terriers from Binky's Tavern and dog
 >fight arena, beat them senseless, starved them to almost death
 >and then ran into them naked with steak juice rubbed on her
 >body. She would definitely get some high profile publicity.
 >Unfortunately, she's too Greer'd up to think straight... then
 >again, maybe she doesn't think and just pretends she does.

 >2. How do we know Ms. Johnstone hasn't secreted a stash of
 >Twinkies in her toliet tank and laughing her tush off at
 >everyone whenever she excuses herself to go to the john?

 >3. Maybe it would be better if she invested in Jennie Craig
 >stock.

 >Man, there is definitely one born every minute. OK, I'm ready
 >for the next dog and pony show. Open the curtins!


Dear Wendy:

Having watched this (choose a word) from the sidelines also, I
have decided to make a personal commitment:

I will not eat any Sushimi Alfredo whatsoever, until George W.
Bush pays some more attention to Dr. Steven Greer.

I shall sustain myself with only other foods, and the customary
liquids.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

   <nosushimialfredo@larryhatch.net>

PS:  Martyr medals made on request. Volume discounts.









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             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke

From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 16:58:41 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 18:33:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke



 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:23:23 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >>Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 03:09:03 +0100


Brad Sparks writes:

 >This post more than anything else demonstrates what a deceitful
 >scoundrel Easton is by his deliberate misquotation where he
 >suppresses Nick Pope's _very next_ sentence explaining:

 >  "I'm pleased though surprised that some Defence Intelligence
 >  Staff papers have been released, because although I worked
 >  with the DIS frequently in the course of my official
 >  research and investigation into the UFO phenomenon, this was
 >  a part of my MOD work that I could never previously have
 >  discussed with the media or the public.:

 >[Easton as mentioned, willfully omits the next sentence by Pope
 >which states in part: "... this was a part of my MOD work that
 >I could never previously have discussed with the media or the
 >public."]

Sorry Brad, but your labouring of this point has become your
un-doing. You are wrong and completely out of your depth as per
usual.

Pope's statement that his work with the DIS was "part of my MOD
work that I could never have discussed with the media or public"
is not correct, but even if it were it is not relevant in this
particular instance. In a detailed interview with myself and
Andy Roberts in April 2001 Pope discussed in detail how he
worked closely with "other specialist divisions within the MOD"
in his investigation of UFO reports. He has referred to this
liaison on numerous occasions in print, during interviews with a
range of UFO researchers, including Nick Redfern and Jenny
Randles. Although he may not have made specific reference to DI
55 or DSTI, it is patently clear these were the "specialist
divisions" he was referring to.

The existence of these divisions and their role since 1950 in
the investigation of UFOs comes as no surprise to anyone with a
knowledge of the workings of theBritish MOD other than it seems
to Sparks. Anyone who consults the voluminous UFO files at the
Public Record Office can see the evidence of DSTI's deep
involvement - which has been an "open secret" since the
mid-1990s (see Nick Redfern's Covert Agenda for numerous
examples). Indeed, in the last two years I have been able to
interview a number of former members of DSTI's staff from the
1950s and 1960s who have been happy to discuss their work on the
subject. So why is it necessary to suggest the very existence of
these branches cannot even be mentioned in 2001?

The point here is not that Pope was _unable_ as a result of the
Official Secrets Act to discuss the DIS role in the
investigation of the Rendlesham Forest incident, but simply that
he was _unaware_ of their involvement in this particular case at
the time he was incumbent at Sec (AS)2a. At that time (1992-94)
the documents pertaining to their role in this case did not form
part of the "correspondence file" which contained nothing other
than Halt's memo, Moreland's memorandum and letters from the
public. This fact is clearly stated by Nick Pope in his own
words - he makes that patently clear in the interview I taped
and transcribed during April (see www.flyingsaucery.com), when
he freely discussed the role of the DIS in other contexts.

The MOD in their release statement also make it patently clear
that the DIS documents did not form part of the original file
but we located following a "search of other files." Clearly,
Pope did not see these files during his service with Sec (AS)2a,
or did not feel it was necessary to ask for them to be searched
for by Archives.

Why this sudden change of mind has occurred is a question Nick
Pope should answer himself, but it is hardly a case that Easton
has chosen to misquote him on this point.

Pope does a good job of misquoting himself, without having to
rely upon others to do it for him.

I look forward to Brad's apology to Easton, and trust it won't
be substituted with yet another knee-jerk polemic against
"sceptics" and "debunkers."


Dave Clarke









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                Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 -

From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 17:10:32 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 18:35:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 -


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:23:23 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

Brad wrote:

 >This post more than anything else demonstrates what a deceitful
 >scoundrel Easton is by his deliberate misquotation where he
 >suppresses Nick Pope's _very next_ sentence explaining:
 >
 >     "I'm pleased though surprised that some Defence Intelligence
 >     Staff papers have been released, because although I worked
 >     with the DIS frequently in the course of my official
 >     research and investigation into the UFO phenomenon, this was
 >     a part of my MOD work that I could never previously have
 >     discussed with the media or the public.:

Nothing deceitful at all Brad. Surely this is a trick Nick will
pull every time something new is extracted from the UK
government. Ask him a question now about something now (we have
several such instances on record) and he will airily say he
never saw it. Then when researchers produce it he will say he
knew about it all along but couldn't say because of the OSA.
That's a lot of rubbish I'm afraid because numerous, and serving
ex-SAS and military people have revealed all manner of genuine
secrets and nothing happens. I'm afraid Nick will have to to
better than to claim knowledge in retrospect and ufologists will
have to learn not to be gulled quite so often.


Happy Trails

Andy










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                       Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Clark

From: Pat McCartney <ElPatricio@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 14:40:22 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 18:37:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Clark


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:48:35 -0500

 >I don't know who "commie buggers" are, or what that phrase is
 >supposed to mean in the real world, but I do know something --
 >more than you, I infer -- about the revived far left, of which
 >your friend is clearly a member. As she, a citizen of a country
 >that is not (Lara's paranoid fantasy notwithstanding) a "prison
 >gulag," has every right to be.

I am dismayed at the pummeling Lara Johnstone continues to
receive on UFO UpDates from people who, silly me, I assumed
might at least give her principled stand some moral support,
even if privately they consider her hunger strike feckless at
best and dangerous at worst.

But I could not let the esteemed Mr. Clark's bashing of the
"revived far left" go unchallenged, since most engage in
peaceful, lawful demonstrations against trade agreements that
they believe jeopardize democratic institutions and hard-won
environmental and labor agreements.

Further, if Jerry does not believe that the United States,
so-called leader of the free world, does not now have its own
"prison gulag", I would ask him why we have 2 million of our
citizens now behind bars. California alone has more people in
jail and prison than the countries of England, France, Germany,
Japan, Holland and Singapore combined. Gosh, we must be safer
than those lawless countries, huh Jerry?

It's no anti-American plot that the United States was voted off
the UN Commission on Human Rights.

Sorry, but you struck a nerve.


Regards,

Pat McCartney








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                   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Wachenschwanz

From: David Wachenschwanz <ploot@atomiccafe.com>
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 14:15:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 18:40:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Wachenschwanz


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 23:03:34 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: David Wachenschwanz <ploot@atomiccafe.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 16:34:51 -0500

 >>>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>>Date: 5 Sep 2001 15:40:13 -0700
 >>>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>>>Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:47:26 -0500

 >><snip>

 >>>Your post is simple red-baiting. It is McCarthyism, no matter
 >>>what color to try to paint it Jerry, or what name you wish to
 >>>give it.

 >>>A young lady writes a letter to the President making a request
 >>>of him. She receives no response.

 >>A _lot_ of people write to the President and don't get replies.
 >>The most powerful man in the free world doesn't necessarily have
 >>the time to respond to every piece of correspondence.

 >>Especially about something like UFOs, and the demand to disclose
 >>all information the government possesses on UFOs.

 >>Ever stop to think the Prez may not have access to such
 >>information? Just because he's the Prez he isn't privy to every
 >>little piece of classified information the spooks have.

 >>There may be much more important things to take care of being
 >>Prez. Like vacations in Texas. Or drunken underage daughters. Or
 >>even the missile defense system.

 >>Or more probable: The Prez doesn't have time to make sense out
 >>of nonsense.

 >One may assign the "Prez" with attributes such as inebriated
 >children, Texas vacations (highly improbable, as he happens to
 >live there... [sigh]) and then assign the attribute of being a
 >sensible man, whilst the nonesense (presumably) is the UFO
 >scenario.

 >Did I get that write? Or are you from the same place as Gesundt,
 >which is to say, Brobdignag?

 >Eh?

 >>David E Wachenschwanz

 >Jim (tank top) Morty

I presume you mean "right" as in correct?

If so, then my reply is "wrong."

One can vacation where one is from. Its done all the time. I too
live in Texas, and while its not Palm Springs, its better than
some other places I've lived.

So, with the obvious explained, what the hell is your point?









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                           X-PPAC Update - 9/7/01

From: ExPPAC@aol.com
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 17:05:19 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 19:38:13 -0400
Subject: X-PPAC Update - 9/7/01


X-PPAC
Update - September 7, 2001

The X-PPAC website poll

For the past year a question has been posed by a popup on the
main page of the X-PPAC web site. It is unambiguous and is
stated thus:

   "Are you convinced that intelligent, extraterrestrial
     life forms visiting our planet, now?"

Earlier this week the vote total reached 10,000. This is not a
scientific poll. There has most certainly been double voting
(padding). Some of that, however, would have canceled out. That
being the case, it is still quite notable that for the past
months the breakdown has been steady at 73% yes, 21% no, 6% no
opinion. 73% is a remarkable number. Further, it would be
reasonable to assume that some of the 21% no's, while not
convinced, are leaning toward a positive response.

This does not represent the view of the general public, which
polls out at around 20% yes to questions with this degree of
certainty. Rather it represents the view of those people who
have visited the X-PPAC website - meaning they have a high
degree of interest in this subject. Based upon UFO/ET television
ratings, the ratings for radio programs and the reported level
of web search engine activity, the number of people in the
nation with this level of interest may well exceed 20 million.

73% of 20 million is 15 million people. In light of the closeness
of the recent congressional and presidential elections, it is
appropriate to consider how much political power a focused
representation of these citizens interests would project. More
on this soon.


Bay Area UFO Expo - September 15-16

Stephen Bassett, the executive director of X-PPAC, will give the
keynote presentation at the Saturday banquet for the Bay Area
UFO Expo in Santa Clara, CA. Information on this conference is
available at: www.bayareaufoexpo.com

Bassett will also be attending the IUFO Congress in Laughlin,
NV the following week (information at: www.ufocongress.com)
and looks forward to getting feedback on how to pursue
the politics of the disclosure process.


Congressional Alerts

Periodically X-PPAC faxes all members of both houses in order to
maintain a constant level of pressure toward congressional
action. This also serves to inform the congressional staff whose
job it is to triage incoming faxes. What legislative aides see
regarding this subject is critical to potential member
decisions. You can review these alerts at:
www.x-ppac.org/Alerts.html.


The OSTP Documents

Earlier this year Canadian researcher, Grant Cameron, used the
FOIA to obtain 88 documents from the Office of Science and
Technology Policy (John Gibbons) in the Clinton White House.
These documents confirm the political initiative funded and led
by Laurance Rockefeller which targeted the Clinton
administration from 1993 to 1995 in and effort to end the UFO
cover-up.

This is important work. Cameron has also written an excellent
white paper which draws upon these documents and can be viewed
at: www.x-ppac.org/OSTP.html.

That these documents were released with almost no redaction is
quite interesting. Under the FOIA nothing is released unless the
agency targeted wants it released. Despite what the public
thinks, the FOIA is not a force majeure. The OSTP must have
known that confirmation of the Rockefeller initiative would be
reintroduced to the political press, which did not cover the
story the first time around. That is exactly what is happening.

Given that Daniel Sheehan and Alfred Webre are publicly
discussing their firsthand knowledge of the Carter
administration's interest in the UFO/ET question, the press is
learning there are now two living ex-presidents who attempted to
address the politics of the UFO cover-up and were shut down.

What is now needed is pressure on Clinton and Carter to
speak out in concert.


Bush Backs Away from the Shelby Provision

A provision to the upcoming intelligence appropriations bill,
which some have called a "national secrets act" has been set
aside for now. The provision sponsor, Senator Richard C. Shelby
(R-Ala.), has not gotten the support of the Bush administration.
A similar proposal was vetoed by Clinton.

A hearing by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence to
address this proposal has also been canceled.

This is a positive sign from the current administration that
developing demands for secrecy reform are being heard. Perhaps
it is an invitation to raise other issues. See:

Editorial in "The Hill"
www.hillnews.com/090501/editorial.shtm

FAS editorial by Aftergood
www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/08/wt082701.html

Washington Post article - Sept. 5, 2001
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42544-2001Sep4.html


Institute for Cooperation in Space (ICIS)

A new organization has been founded by Carol Rosin, Daniel
Sheehan and Alfred Webre to address the controversial issues
surrounding the further weaponization of space by the United
States. ICIS is behind a bill about to be introduced by
Rep.Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) to ban weapons in space. Canada and
Japan are also working to develop a space weapons ban treaty.

This new development is notable because Rosin, Sheehan and Webre
are part of the brain trust behind the Disclosure Project. This
creates interesting possibilities for the political media and
will be watched carefully.

See news release at the ICIS website:
http://www.peaceinspace.com/


Hunger Strike - An Activist Gained

Lara Johnstone, a Berkeley, CA woman, has tied a hunger strike
to candidate Bush's promise to Charles Huffer during the
campaign that as president he would be forthcoming on the UFO/ET
issue. Lara is an experienced activist and knows what she is
doing. She is very articulate and has brought considerable media
attention to the Bush/Huffer encounter.

The "hunger strike" has a long tradition as a nonviolent method
of protest. It should surprise no one that the full range of
activist options will be utilized to engage a government imposed
embargo on the truth of an extraterrestrial reality. You can
follow her progress at: www.bushufodisclosure.org


An Activist Lost

Those who champion truth being the foundation of our nation's
space policy lost a good friend recently with the passing of
David Laverty much too young from Lymphoma cancer.

A wonderful appreciation of David by Kynthia can be viewed at:
http://www.planetarymysteries.com/david

  ___________________________________________________

   Extraterrestrial Phenomena Political Action Committee
        URL: www.x-ppac.org
        E-mail: exppac@aol.com
        Phone: 301-990-4290
         Fax: 301-990-0199
        4938 Hampden Lane, #161
        Bethesda, Maryland 20814
  ___________________________________________________

  Spread the word about X-PPAC and the politics of disclosure.
    Contribute online at: www.x-ppac.org/Contribute.html
   or mail to: 4938 Hampden Lane,161 Bethesda, MD 20814
  ___________________________________________________

    "There is almost no limit to what you can accomplish,
      if you are willing to give away the credit."
  ___________________________________________________

     "The truth costs money. Lies, on the other hand,
        will be provided to you for free."








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 9

                   CE: - Wired News Covers UFO Disclosure

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@AOL.COM>
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 02:09:52 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 12:30:58 -0400
Subject: CE: - Wired News Covers UFO Disclosure


 >From: The Secret Of The Golden Flower [mailto:gargoyle@ECHONYC.COM]
 >Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 11:09 AM
 >To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
 >Subject: Re: Wired News covers UFO Disclosure

 >Of the very few questionable witnesses, NONE have been shown
 >to be outright fabrication. Some people dont get the proof
 >they personally need, and so they conclude wrongly that the
 >case is a fabrication. What can you do to help the Project
 >succeed? Talk discouragingly in public? Is that the best you
 >can come up with?

 >--- stv

Let's start with the most blatantly obvious liar and hoaxer on CSETI's
witness list:

CSETI Witness B: MSM; a naval worker at Atlantic Fleet Command
Center, Norfolk, with a Top-Secret, SCI (Sensitive Compartmented
Information) clearance, October 1981. The witness was present
throughout a prolonged encounter off the eastern US seaboard
between US naval aircraft and a 300-foot diameter, disc shaped,
UFO, which was monitored on multiple radars including NORAD. The
UFO was confirmed to be neither Soviet nor US. Admiral X (known
to us) gave the order to "close in on the object, make contact,
fo rce it down if possible." Military jets were scrambled from a
nearby US aircraft carrier in the north Atlantic. The UFO
propulsion was so extraordinary that in ONE SWEEP of the radar,
the disc would move from off the coast of NEWFOUNDLAND to an
area off NORFOLK, Virginia, then suddenly from Norfolk to off
the coast of JACKSONVILLE Florida.

[THIS PROVES THE STORY IS AN OUTRIGHT LIE. SEE BELOW]

One naval aircraft briefly got close enough to photograph the
object (above cloud ceiling, with unlimited visibility at
approximately 35,000 feet). This photograph was later enlarged
and shown to Admiral X on the large screen display in the
Atlantic Fleet Command Center. This witness subsequently saw an
aircraft camera photograph of the huge metallic disc.

MORE COMMENTS: This story trips itself up as a blatant hoax
right here. There is no radar that can track a UFO in "ONE sweep
of the radar" over a distance of 1,100 miles from Newfoundland
to Norfolk and 600 miles from Norfolk to Jacksonville as that is
well beyond the typical 300-mile range of even long-range early
warning radars and would be well below the earth's horizon from
such distances if low enough in altitude to have jets scrambled
to intercept. At 35,000 ft, for example, targets disappear below
the earth's geometric horizon at 230 miles ground distance.

Furthermore, if the UFO allegedly moved such distances in "ONE
sweep" then it would be impossible to determine that two
isolated blips at opposite sides of a radar scope belonged to
the same object. Anomalous propagation typically generates
spurious returns among which radar operators can sometimes
mistakenly "connect the dots" and then imagine the connected up
blips belong to a single rapidly moving object. A minimum of
several blips in a roughly straight line and approximately
evenly spaced are required to be sure they are echoes from an
actual target.


Let's move on to the next set of liars, these being ones
claiming that NASA' s low-resolution satellites took photos of a
UFO casting a shadow on the earth beneath it as well of course
photos of bogus ET Moon Bases:


CSETI Witness I and Witness J: Two separate witnesses, unknown
to each other, who at different times and at different places,
saw NASA PHOTOGRAPHS with UFO or ET facilities (MOON). Witness I
was present at Johnson Space Center, working under contract with
Ford Aerospace, and directly saw clear daytime photograph from a
satellite with a disc shaped UFO, which cast a SHADOW on the
earth beneath it. When she asked what they would do with the
photo (she wrongly assumed it would be released to the public)
she was told that it, like others, would be altered and the UFO
would be removed from the image prior to release to non-secure
NASA or other agency use. Witness I saw strips of film showing
extensive ARTIFICIAL structures on the dark side of the MOON
which were there result of the Lunar Orbiter overflights.

MORE COMMENTS: Low-resolution NASA satellites could not pick up images of
both a UFO and its shadow on the earth. NASA satellites are not classified
spy satellites. Try finding ANY NASA photos of ordinary aircraft WITH their
SHADOWS! Show me just one you liars!!!!


Our next CSETI liar is too stupid and unfamiliar with NSA and
intelligence basics to know that "cryptoGRAPHERS" were at NSA
Headquarters at Ft. Meade, Maryland, not at the Pentagon in
Virginia AND that they don't decipher or decrypt messages, they
make OUR own codes. CryptoLOGISTS and cryptANALYSTS are the ones
who decipher and decrypt -- this liar is too dumb to know the
difference. He apparently is too dumb to know that Top Secret
clearance isn't sufficient for crypto work as he would need
CRYPTO clearance:


CSETI Witness K: Major SL, a respected lawyer, was an Army
CRYPTOGRAPHER in the Pentagon 1959-61. He was shown metal
samples of debris from the crash of an extraterrestrial craft in
New Mexico in the late 1940s, and it was demonstrated to him the
extraordinary properties of the material. He saw the ET writing
on the debris and was told Army CRYPTOGRAPHERS were studying it,
but that they had not (in 1959) broken the code.
  He also had confirmed to him then President Eisenhower's
  interest in the subject, that he knew of the subject, but that
  he was being left out of substantial information dealing with
  ET technology programs. Major SL had a Top-Secret clearance and
  continues to possess a Top-Secret clearance in the US Army
  Reserve.


MORE COMMENTS: Army frauds are getting tired of the AF fly boys
grabbing all the glory on Roswell so now they're horning in on
the hoaxing action.


Here is one witness who sounds legitimate except that the morons
at CSETI are incapable of recognizing and filtering
pseudoscientific hogwash, so they are oblivious to poppycock
about "INSTANT vertical accelerations" which by definition are
impossible and are impossible to measure on radar or anything
else:

CSETI Witness Q: KS, US Air Force career air traffic controller
and radar operator with Top-Secret clearance, present at Minot
ND Strategic Air Command (ICBM) base. Witness had multiple
extraordinary encounters with UFOs on radar and documented
maneuverability of shocking proportions such as INSTANT vertical
accelerations to >5000 miles per hour, AGAINST the force of
gravity, etc.

MORE COMMENTS: Of course it's AGAINST the "force of gravity"!!!
ANYTHING moving upward vertically is going AGAINST the "force of
gravity," including ordinary helicopters and balloons. This kind
of scientifically illiterate trash would get CSETI laughed out
of every physics dept in the world and make them a laughingstock
at any Congressional hearing if someone knowledgeable tipped off
the hearing staff.


Here is another legitimate witness, astronaut Gordon Cooper,
whose testimony has been ruined by inserting or allowing
bold-faced lies about a coverup that supposedly whisked away the
photos from the May 3, 1957, incident at Edwards AFB that were
"NEVER SEEN AGAIN" -- except as it turns out by THOUSANDS of
people who bought Brad Steiger's book with 3 of the PHOTOS in
it!!! The frames if not the entire film are at the National
Archives in the BLUE BOOK files, and have even been PUBLISHED
all the way back in November 1976 by Brad Steiger of all people
in his book "Project Blue Book" (Ballantine), pp. 360-1, Case
#4715:

CSETI Witness R: Mercury Astronaut and American hero Gordon
Cooper, had clear sighting of disc shaped UFO 1950s and also had
his squadron film a landed UFO at Edwards Air Force Base. Film
was flown on the general's plane to the Pentagon and was NEVER
SEEN AGAIN.


Our last liar has one of the most preposterous stories of all --
concerning ET "ejection pod" spurportedly found in the South
Atlantic. I am going to bet we didn't have any ICBM tests into
the South Atlantic in August 1963:

CSETI Witness A: Captain of a navy contract vessel in charge of
retrieving ICBM test missiles in the south Atlantic, August
1963. During one evening, a UFO was seen on radar and then
abruptly disappeared. Following morning, the captain was
vectored to the place where the UFO vanished and they found an
ejection pod, approximately 6 feet by 6 feet, containing 3
extraterrestrial biological entities (EBEs): Each ET was clad in
a one piece flight suit, was about 40 inches tall, olive
complexion, 4 digits on each hand, etc. This witness handled the
EBEs and has detailed information concerning their morphology,
how they were taken off of his ship by a navy nuclear submarine
and how the ET ejection pod was transferred to another surface
ship.


What I want to know is why I should support (a) such a pack of
liars and cheats who tell such mammoth whoppers, and (b) a
Disclosure Project headed by people so stupid and incompetent
that they cannot tell that these are lies and/or amazingly have
not obtained the services of those who CAN tell, among all the
HUNDREDS of so-called EXPERTS they've retained, or they DO KNOW
these are lies and themselves are lying to the public about the
liar witnesses.






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 9

                  CE: Re: Wired News Covers UFO Disclosure

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@CYBERZONE.NET>
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 11:52:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 12:33:54 -0400
Subject: CE: Re: Wired News Covers UFO Disclosure


 >From: "Sharon K" <sharon@HOTMIX.COM.AU>
 >To: <CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>
 >Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 5:22 AM
 >Subject: Re: Wired News covers UFO Disclosure


 >Brad,

 >Your reply is thorough and very interesting.
 >I was impressed to see a view of the other side
 >to the disclosure debate.

 >Not being directly involved in any of the armed forces
 >or in the scientific community per se my
 >knowledge of what you have contributed is very
 >limited and I am sure other listers in my situation
 >would agree that it is refreshing to read factual comments
 >rather than the all the common emotional response.

 >Thank you

 >Sharon K


Sharon,

If you if you review the messages on this list you will find
that some of Brad's objections, the majical radar tracking for
example, have been brought up here before. A large number of
other problems have indeed been surfaced here and elsewhere.
Usually these are shouted down, by "what have you done, at least
Greer is doing something." "50, 200, and now 450+ [pick a
number] witnesses, there has got to be something here."

Let's look at the witnesses first. I have written to some of
these people on the witness list asking how they got there.
Well, it seems that if one grants an interview to a TV
production company, the company or interviewer obtains a release
which makes the interview their property. The interviewee does
not have control of how the interview is used. [We don't work
that way, when Tom Tulien and I interviewed Fred Durant for an
oral history, we obtained premission to quote it for our
historical purposes, but if other want to use the footage, they
must contact Durant not Tom. Durant controls his interveiw.]

So, at least, some of these interviews were not done by Greer
and the Disclosure Project (DJ) but by others. The interviewee
is on record, but he is not necessarily a supporter of the DJ.
Fine, in the past people have quoted others in support of their
position. However, here a non-disclosure is that some on the
witness list are not active supporters of DJ.

Some witnesses on the list are legitmate and important. Salas
for instance.

click on

www.cufon.org

then go to Special Reports and click on Malmstrom


His case, the very important Malmstrom nuclear incident was
written up in manuscript with Jim Klotz. It is interesting that
in these current times very questionable UFO material easily
finds an outlet, but serious less-sensational things are left
behind. (To me, this is a most sensational case, but it doesn't
have ET escape pods recovered in the Atlantic, so it has to take
a back seat to that. Or in the DJ it must take a back seat to
Clifford Stone with his 57 varities of aliens.)

See Kevin Randle's comments on Stone:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2001/jul/m31-013.shtml

Salas did decide to be one of Greer's witnesses. He thought that
possibly through the exposure in the media, others in his case
might come forward--for years the attempts to find other
witnesses involved in the case stagnated. Just recently other
witnesses have been, but not because of the DJ, but because of
the work of Jim Klotz and new search techniques available on the
web which were not here years ago.

At the DJ presentation there was another important
non-disclosure; Greer's ability to lure spaceship and
communicate with ET. This should have been more sensational than
Stone's 57 variety of aliens, but is mentioned nowhere. Now if
Greer has been as one poster here put it, "busting his ass on
the DJ." Why could he have taken just a little time to provide
us with absolute proof of ETs from just one of his contact
session? Then, we would have to wend our way through all these
testimonies which in the end have nothing to back them up. Greer
could easily provide us with THE PROOF! He declines.

Now another major non-disclosure was tying UFOs to a far left
political agenda. I don't care if you believe that space should
be militarized or not, if you believe that there should be no
anti-ballistic missile defense. [note: the word ballistic as any
artilleryman can tell you means it operates in the gravity well.
Since ET can travel over vast distances and have power that
easily over comes the gravity well then, this would seem to have
nothing to do with the subject.] This was sprung on an
unsuspecting UFO community without warning or consultation. Now
there is a three way split in Congress over missile defense.
Some support Bush's program, some support alternative ideas, and
some are for no missile defense at all. This last group is in
the minority. Identifying a fringe cause, UFOs, with a political
position which is in the minority does not seem overly brilliant
to me. Especially, there if there is no advanced warning to
colleagues in the UFO field that is your stategy. This
non-disclosure really grates! You can try to whip everyone in
line by saying that, Greer is opposed by egoists who are looking
out for their own opinions, but in the end what you have is a
group of people trying to impose their political agenda on
others without any free exchange of ideas. "Here it is take or
leave it."

If you want to work for other causes great, but political action
about UFOs should concern just that topic.

So in the end what is going on here? The DJ is a hodge-podge on
witnesses some good, some with credibility problems and some
outright yarn spinners. This hodge-podge will be thrown in
Congress' lap for them to sort out? I think not.

If you want to get Congressional interest you go with your
absolutely best evidence upfront. You make your case in a
logical and simple way supported at every step with the best you
have. You leave the side issues out. You leave the people with
questionable backgrounds out. You present a compelling case
based on the best you have not a this scatter gun approach.

If there were Congressional hearings with the current
hodge-podge of "witnesses" then the flashy screwy ones will
insure that the important ones do not get a hearing.

There have been Congressional hearings in the past. Sometimes
these did not occur because of barrages of letters unleased by
constituents, although that didn't hurt, but because Congressmen
were convinced that some oversight in the area was needed. To
those who say nothing was being done before DJ, you are wrong!
Just because it wasn't flashy and out there for everyone on to
see, doesn't mean that there aren't other efforts going on. In
fact, DJ effective blocked this work. The foolishness associated
with the DJ made those Congressional staffs looking at the
material retreat for the time being.

To summarize: Important witnesses are obcured by less credible
ones in DJ. An attempt is made to use ufology for a separate
political agenda. (Already this has been ridiculed by Rush
Limbaugh.) Finally, the principal does not come forward and talk
about his experience which if properly utilized should have
provided absolute proof of ET.

There is pleny of non-disclosures at the DJ.

Jan Aldrich









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 9

               Re: "US Has Heavily Researched Anti-Gravity" -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 16:05:27 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 12:49:48 -0400
Subject: Re: "US Has Heavily Researched Anti-Gravity" -


 >Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 05:25:53 -0400
 >From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>,
 >Subject: "US Has Heavily Researched Anti-Gravity"


 >This was sent to me by a friend and I thought it would be of
 >interest here. Any comments?

 >Source: Yahoo!News

 >http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010907/sc/arms_gravity_dc_1.html


 >Friday September 7 12:15 PM ET

 >US Has Heavily Researched Anti-Gravity, Book Says

 >By Bradley Perrett

 >LONDON (Reuters) - The U.S. military may have conducted serious
 >research into anti-gravity based on Nazi studies, a top defense
 >journalist suggests in a new book.

 >In ``The Hunt for Zero Point,'' journalist Nick Cook says, based
 >on a decade's research, he believes by the 1950s the U.S. was
 >seriously working on anti-gravity ``electrogravitics''
 >technology, which would lift and propel vehicles without wings
 >or thrust.

 >``I feel intuitively that some vehicle has been developed,
 >particularly given that there is this wealth of scientific data
 >out there, and the Americans have never been slow to pick up on
 >this sort of science,'' Cook, the aerospace consultant for
 >Jane's Defense Weekly, told Reuters in an interview.

 >Cook uncovered reports and sightings of a Nazi research device
 >that had been hidden in a remote part of Poland, where it had
 >apparently been supplied with great quantities of electricity --
 >which an electrogravitic experiment would require.

 >Curiously, barely a hint of such Nazi research appeared after
 >the war, suggesting that whoever captured it -- probably the
 >United States -- immediately stamped it ``secret,'' he said.

 >Cook noted that, as a respected expert, he is risking his
 >reputation by writing seriously about a technology associated
 >with UFOs, which most scientists dismiss as science fiction
 >embraced by ``hocus-pocus'' believers.

 >The United States is known to have a huge budget for so called
 >``black projects,'' because it spends more on defense than can
 >be accounted for by adding up the value of public programs.

 >Cook admitted he cannot produce a conclusive case. But that is
 >the nature of black projects, in which even the workers usually
 >have no idea what they are working on.

 >In 1947, amid the early craze of UFO reports, an air force
 >general reported on the possibility of the United States
 >building disc-shaped objects with extreme rates of climb and
 >maneuverability but without noise or evident propulsion.

 >In the mid 1950s electrogravitics was the subject of a few press
 >reports, including one that described work by most of the United
 >States' major defense contractors, Cook reported.

 >And then it all went quiet -- just as stealth technology
 >suddenly disappeared from view in the mid 1970s, only to
 >re-emerge as operational aircraft in the late 1980s.

 >Academic papers on the subject have mysteriously disappeared
 >from libraries.

 >There is still no firm evidence that electrogravitics is more
 >than science fiction. Civilian scientists and amateurs have
 >experimented with it, and while some have reported success, no
 >one seems to have reproduced their results to prove that it
 >works.

 >Todd Lemire


Hello Todd, List, Errol,

Good piece. Ed Fouche wrote a fine novel not terribly long ago,
a book which title I've forgotten. It postulated that the United
States had the technology to develop and maintain a technology
which helped explain many of the sightings of UFO's which we've
seen in the skies of this planet.

This opinion never made any sense to me. If this nation or any
other, has the technology which allows the kind of flight
characteristics many of us have obeserved, then too many men and
women have died needlessly in wars large and small. And if this
is so, that we have such technology and failed to use it when it
was necessary, then it makes Hiroshima and Nagasaki look benign
by comparison. Meaning, we've multiplied our mistakes by
unimaginable mutations. If such were to become known, it could
literally destroy government as we know it.

Hmmmm..... what a damned good idea.


Cloudy skies (as usual),

Jim Mortellaro








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 9

             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 19:08:12 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 12:52:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Sparks


 >From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 16:58:41 +0100

 >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:23:23 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >>>Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 03:09:03 +0100

Hi List members,

As usual Clarke changes the subject and expects no one to
notice. The issue is in two parts: (a) Easton's misquotation of
Nick Pope whereby he deliberately and selectively omits Pope's
next-sentence explanation for why he could "never previously
discuss" his knowledge of secret files on Rendlesham and (b)
Easton's subsequent beating of Pope over the head so to speak
for lying or not explaining his previous denials.

Clarke changes the subject to arguing over whether Pope's
explanation is satisfactory instead of dealing with the issue of
Easton's deliberate suppression of Pope's explanation. Clarke
may well be right that Pope's explanation is unsatisfactory in
some way, but that doesn't excuse Easton from waxing indignant
over Pope insinuating that Pope never even addressed the issue,
however convincingly or not, when in fact Pope did so and Easton
refused to quote it, even though it was the very next sentence
following the one Easton did quote.

Pope should explain this more fully but until then we can easily
imagine that because of Pope's relatively more "public" role he
may have been given more stringent instructions about concealing
the existence and activities of other intelligence sections
involved with UFO's even though those other sections' personnel
were not given similar instructions -- they didn't need to since
their role wasn't as visible or exposed as Pope's was.


 >Brad Sparks writes:

 >>This post more than anything else demonstrates what a deceitful
 >>scoundrel Easton is by his deliberate misquotation where he
 >>suppresses Nick Pope's _very next_ sentence explaining:

 >> "I'm pleased though surprised that some Defence Intelligence
 >> Staff papers have been released, because although I worked
 >> with the DIS frequently in the course of my official
 >> research and investigation into the UFO phenomenon, this was
 >> a part of my MOD work that I could never previously have
 >> discussed with the media or the public.:

 >>[Easton as mentioned, willfully omits the next sentence by Pope
 >>which states in part: "... this was a part of my MOD work that
 >>I could never previously have discussed with the media or the
 >>public."]

 >Sorry Brad, but your labouring of this point has become your
 >un-doing. You are wrong and completely out of your depth as per
 >usual.

 >Pope's statement that his work with the DIS was "part of my MOD
 >work that I could never have discussed with the media or public"
 >is not correct, but even if it were it is not relevant in this
 >particular instance. In a detailed interview with myself and
 >Andy Roberts in April 2001 Pope discussed in detail how he
 >worked closely with "other specialist divisions within the MOD"
 >in his investigation of UFO reports. He has referred to this
 >liaison on numerous occasions in print, during interviews with a
 >range of UFO researchers, including Nick Redfern and Jenny
 >Randles. Although he may not have made specific reference to DI
 >55 or DSTI, it is patently clear these were the "specialist
 >divisions" he was referring to.

 >The existence of these divisions and their role since 1950 in
 >the investigation of UFOs comes as no surprise to anyone with a
 >knowledge of the workings of theBritish MOD other than it seems
 >to Sparks. Anyone who consults the voluminous UFO files at the
 >Public Record Office can see the evidence of DSTI's deep
 >involvement - which has been an "open secret" since the
 >mid-1990s (see Nick Redfern's Covert Agenda for numerous

As usual arguing from total ignorance. I interviewed CIA/OSI
officials in the 70's who told me they met with and discussed
UFO's with DSTI personnel in 1952-3 including Director Bertie K.
Blount and his successor R. V. Jones.

 >examples). Indeed, in the last two years I have been able to
 >interview a number of former members of DSTI's staff from the
 >1950s and 1960s who have been happy to discuss their work on the
 >subject. So why is it necessary to suggest the very existence of
 >these branches cannot even be mentioned in 2001?

 >The point here is not that Pope was _unable_ as a result of the
 >Official Secrets Act to discuss the DIS role in the
 >investigation of the Rendlesham Forest incident, but simply that
 >he was _unaware_ of their involvement in this particular case at
 >the time he was incumbent at Sec (AS)2a. At that time (1992-94)

More assumptions in changing the subject, assuming Pope was
unaware of the secret files instead of unable to discuss their
existence. The issue was Easton's suppression of Pope's
explanation that he previously couldn't discuss the secret files
and indignantly acting as if he had no explanation, not whether
it was the correct explanation or not.

Pope didn't say anything about the Official Secrets Act in the
quote Easton suppressed. It could have been special instructions
given to him, and whether based on the OSA or not is a separate
issue.

 >the documents pertaining to their role in this case did not form
 >part of the "correspondence file" which contained nothing other
 >than Halt's memo, Moreland's memorandum and letters from the
 >public. This fact is clearly stated by Nick Pope in his own
 >words - he makes that patently clear in the interview I taped
 >and transcribed during April (see www.flyingsaucery.com), when
 >he freely discussed the role of the DIS in other contexts.

 >The MOD in their release statement also make it patently clear
 >that the DIS documents did not form part of the original file
 >but we located following a "search of other files." Clearly,
 >Pope did not see these files during his service with Sec (AS)2a,
 >or did not feel it was necessary to ask for them to be searched
 >for by Archives.

 >Why this sudden change of mind has occurred is a question Nick
 >Pope should answer himself, but it is hardly a case that Easton
 >has chosen to misquote him on this point.

 >Pope does a good job of misquoting himself, without having to
 >rely upon others to do it for him.

 >I look forward to Brad's apology to Easton, and trust it won't
 >be substituted with yet another knee-jerk polemic against
 >"sceptics" and "debunkers."

 >Dave Clarke

Easton owes Pope an apology for misquoting him, for leaving out
Pope's explanation that he couldn't previously discuss the
secret files, and for in effect browbeating Pope over supposedly
having no explanation when it was Easton who suppressed it.









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             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 19:14:29 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 12:54:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Sparks


 >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 17:10:32 +0100

 >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:23:23 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Brad wrote:

 >>This post more than anything else demonstrates what a deceitful
 >>scoundrel Easton is by his deliberate misquotation where he
 >>suppresses Nick Pope's _very next_ sentence explaining:

 >>  "I'm pleased though surprised that some Defence Intelligence
 >>  Staff papers have been released, because although I worked
 >>  with the DIS frequently in the course of my official
 >>  research and investigation into the UFO phenomenon, this was
 >>  a part of my MOD work that I could never previously have
 >>  discussed with the media or the public.:

 >Nothing deceitful at all Brad. Surely this is a trick Nick will
 >pull every time something new is extracted from the UK
 >government. Ask him a question now about something now (we have
 >several such instances on record) and he will airily say he
 >never saw it. Then when researchers produce it he will say he
 >knew about it all along but couldn't say because of the OSA.


Andy,

See my posting in response to Clarke. I will not repeat myself
here. The issue was Easton suppressing Pope's explanation not
whether it was a very good or convincing explantion.

I will add that I appreciate what you're trying to say here and
Pope will simply have to answer for himself on this.

However, the Pope quote that Easton suppressed says nothing
about the OSA. Whether Pope got special instructions more
stringent than others because of his more visible or exposed
role he will have to explain, and whether it was based on the
OSA or not is a separate issue.

 >That's a lot of rubbish I'm afraid because numerous, and serving
 >ex-SAS and military people have revealed all manner of genuine
 >secrets and nothing happens. I'm afraid Nick will have to to
 >better than to claim knowledge in retrospect and ufologists will
 >have to learn not to be gulled quite so often.









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                     Re: X-PPAC Update - 9/7/01 - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 16:58:14 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 12:58:27 -0400
Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - 9/7/01 - Hatch


 >From: Stephen Bassett <ExPPAC@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 17:05:19 EDT
 >Subject: X-PPAC Update - 9/7/01
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >X-PPAC
 >Update - September 7, 2001

 >The X-PPAC website poll

 >For the past year a question has been posed by a popup on the
 >main page of the X-PPAC web site. It is unambiguous and is
 >stated thus:

 >   "Are you convinced that intelligent, extraterrestrial
 >     life forms visiting our planet, now?"

<snip>

I hate to answer a question with a question. Alas:

I think the X-PPac question is poorly phrased.

If I had the ability or means, I would ask:

"Do you believe that intelligent ET persons are sending
spacecraft to Earth?"

The original wording seems designed to make anyone with a
positive response look like an idiot.

My wording makes the same idiot look like a carefully considered
crackpot, somebody worthy of some small respect in the Subway
Sandwich line.


Best wishes

- Larry [burp!] Hatch


PS:  I am no longer responsible for my spelling and stuff like
that there.  - LH









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                     Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 22:52:37 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 13:01:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Mortellaro


 >Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 14:15:30 -0500
 >From: David Wachenschwanz <ploot@atomiccafe.com>
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 23:03:34 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: David Wachenschwanz <ploot@atomiccafe.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>>Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 16:34:51 -0500

 >>>>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>>>Date: 5 Sep 2001 15:40:13 -0700
 >>>>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>>>>Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:47:26 -0500

 >>><snip>

 >>>Or more probable: The Prez doesn't have time to make sense out
 >>>of nonsense.

 >>One may assign the "Prez" with attributes such as inebriated
 >>children, Texas vacations (highly improbable, as he happens to
 >>live there... [sigh]) and then assign the attribute of being a
 >>sensible man, whilst the nonesense (presumably) is the UFO
 >>scenario.

 >>Did I get that write? Or are you from the same place as Gesundt,
 >>which is to say, Brobdignag?

 >>Eh?

 >>>David E Wachenschwanz

 >>Jim (tank top) Morty

 >I presume you mean "right" as in correct?

 >If so, then my reply is "wrong."

 >One can vacation where one is from. Its done all the time. I too
 >live in Texas, and while its not Palm Springs, its better than
 >some other places I've lived.

 >So, with the obvious explained, what the hell is your point?

Dear All, Mr. Wachenschwanz and Errol,

First, I apologize most profoundly. I forgot that I was dealing
with erudition of the third kind, and used to pluperfect
positive of the past present tense. "Write" is, as is my want,
used as a satirical version of "right." Which is not what you
are, if indeed you are telling this list that the UFO and
abduction phenom is "nonesense." Now that's just my pair of
dimes ... paradigm ... so sorry.

That is "what the hell my point" is. Now, yet again, in simple
script, when you wrote that the "prez" vacationed in Texas, just
what the hell does that have to do with Lara, her fast, the
abduction phenom or the price of bananas in Paducah?

Last, when you wrote that the "prez" was not required to make
sense out of nonesense, what the hell was the nonsense? The
abduction phenom?

As for the point, there were three. One and two above and three
on one of our heads. Your response will determine which one of
us wears the dunce cap.

Now, please go sit in the corner. You are guilty of not
comprehending satire when you read it and not being clear about
what is and what isn't nonsense. And darn it I really _hate_ it
when that happens.


Gesundt

Next time it'll be me









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                     Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 23:11:31 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 13:05:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Mortellaro


 >From: Pat McCartney <ElPatricio@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 14:40:22 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Clark
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:48:35 -0500

 >>I don't know who "commie buggers" are, or what that phrase is
 >>supposed to mean in the real world, but I do know something --
 >>more than you, I infer -- about the revived far left, of which
 >>your friend is clearly a member. As she, a citizen of a country
 >>that is not (Lara's paranoid fantasy notwithstanding) a "prison
 >>gulag," has every right to be.

 >I am dismayed at the pummeling Lara Johnstone continues to
 >receive on UFO UpDates from people who, silly me, I assumed
 >might at least give her principled stand some moral support,
 >even if privately they consider her hunger strike feckless at
 >best and dangerous at worst.

 >But I could not let the esteemed Mr. Clark's bashing of the
 >"revived far left" go unchallenged, since most engage in
 >peaceful, lawful demonstrations against trade agreements that
 >they believe jeopardize democratic institutions and hard-won
 >environmental and labor agreements.

 >Further, if Jerry does not believe that the United States,
 >so-called leader of the free world, does not now have its own
 >"prison gulag", I would ask him why we have 2 million of our
 >citizens now behind bars. California alone has more people in
 >jail and prison than the countries of England, France, Germany,
 >Japan, Holland and Singapore combined. Gosh, we must be safer
 >than those lawless countries, huh Jerry?

 >It's no anti-American plot that the United States was voted off
 >the UN Commission on Human Rights.

 >Sorry, but you struck a nerve.


Dear Pat, Jerome, List and Errol,

You hit another nerve out there in the void, Jerome. I had one
lousy nerve left, and now, you're on it. I agree to an extent,
with Pat. I'll see his point and raise you two or three. This
country is no longer what it once was. And the fault is not the
government, or politicians or the rest of the jerks we lemmings
blame it all on, it's us. We, the people. For whom the
Constitution and indeed this entire nation, this experiment in a
Constitutional Republic, was founded by our forefathers.

We fail to become involved, we fail to challenge what we believe
to be wrong, and we fail to open our big mouths for anything
better than to abuse those who do. We look at people like Lara,
who put their money where the rest of us put our mouths, and we
belittle their efforts at making a difference. And it stinks.
Worse than Swamp Gas and Fil Class.

(Note to Mr. Wachenschwanze... _satire_!)

To be honest, and this is my personal pair of dimes
(caution-hummer), that if just half of us raised our voices to
our leaders in lieu of at those who do, we'd all be better off.

It should surprise me that Lara is taking more of a beating as
the days go by. It don't. Almost as if people lurking are
waiting for another bash before adding their own voices to the
cacophony. This is something for which we should be grateful.
But no. We look for any item which would detract from her
generous efforts. The end result? The sum total of human
knowledge is detracted from.


Jimmy









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                       Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 23:11:55 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 13:07:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Young


 >From: Pat McCartney <ElPatricio@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 14:40:22 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Clark
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:48:35 -0500

<snip>

 >But I could not let the esteemed Mr. Clark's bashing of the
 >"revived far left" go unchallenged, since most engage in
 >peaceful, lawful demonstrations against trade agreements that
 >they believe jeopardize democratic institutions and hard-won
 >environmental and labor agreements.

 >Further, if Jerry does not believe that the United States,
 >so-called leader of the free world, does not now have its own
 >"prison gulag", I would ask him why we have 2 million of our
 >citizens now behind bars.

Pat:

Perhaps because they have been convicted of crimes?

 >It's no anti-American plot that the United States was voted off
 >the UN Commission on Human Rights.

Then what kind of plot was it? A plot by the Radical Honesty
Movement?

Consider these paragons of "human rights" who have just been
made members of that august body, while the U.S. was being
thrown off:

Algeria, Cuba, "Democratic" Republic of the Congo, Kenya,
Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, Viet Nam and Libya. There they will join
China, Liberia, and Pakistan.

 >Sorry, but you struck a nerve.

I'll say. What nerve, exactly was that?

And what does any of this have to do with UFOs, other than to
attempt to co-opt discussion of that topic and replace it with a
bunch of New Left gibberish?


Clear skies,

Bob Young

---------
In Cumbria, England, Sellafield, a Nuclear power station
as heavily contaminated with radioactivity as Chernobyl
  - - Lara Johnstone and Grant Cameron








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                       Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 10:19:32 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 13:09:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Rimmer


 >From: Pat McCartney <ElPatricio@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 14:40:22 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Clark
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:48:35 -0500

 >>I don't know who "commie buggers" are, or what that phrase is
 >>supposed to mean in the real world, but I do know something --
 >>more than you, I infer -- about the revived far left, of which
 >>your friend is clearly a member. As she, a citizen of a country
 >>that is not (Lara's paranoid fantasy notwithstanding) a "prison
 >>gulag," has every right to be.

 >I am dismayed at the pummeling Lara Johnstone continues to
 >receive on UFO UpDates from people who, silly me, I assumed
 >might at least give her principled stand some moral support,
 >even if privately they consider her hunger strike feckless at
 >best and dangerous at worst.

If people consider her so-called "hunger" strike dangerous, why
on earth should they give her any support?

 >But I could not let the esteemed Mr. Clark's bashing of the
 >"revived far left" go unchallenged, since most engage in
 >peaceful, lawful demonstrations against trade agreements that
 >they believe jeopardize democratic institutions and hard-won
 >environmental and labor agreements.

 >Further, if Jerry does not believe that the United States,
 >so-called leader of the free world, does not now have its own
 >"prison gulag", I would ask him why we have 2 million of our
 >citizens now behind bars.

Maybe because 2 million people have committed crimes? Out of a
population of, what?, 260 million, less than 1% doesn't seem too
high.

 >California alone has more people in
 >jail and prison than the countries of England, France, Germany,
 >Japan, Holland and Singapore combined. Gosh, we must be safer
 >than those lawless countries, huh Jerry?

Outside the major cities you probably are.

 >It's no anti-American plot that the United States was voted off
 >the UN Commission on Human Rights.

Hmmm... and which Rights-loving nations were voted on in its
place?

 >Sorry, but you struck a nerve.

Anybody who compares the penal conditions of any democratic
country - however severe - with those of the Soviet Gulag
certainly strikes my nerves - or, more accurately, gets on them.
As indeed does anyone who compares Johnstone's silly little
demonstration with the incredible bravery of those who struggled
against the Holocaust - without the benefits of holistic therapy
and wheatgrass juice, whatever that might be.


John Rimmer

Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk









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   Sep > Sep 9

                           Nazi UFOs And All That

From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 08:14:17 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 13:12:34 -0400
Subject: Nazi UFOs And All That


Dear All,

Nice to be back.

Jane's Defence Weekly's very own Aerospace expert Nick Cook has
just had his 'The Hunt For Zero Point' published by Century in
the UK. Several people have e-mailed me to congratulate me on
having published the bulk of material in 'UFO Revelation' over
two years ago. In fact, Cook didn't use many of the documents
that I did, but he concentrated much more on "anti-gravity"
technologies. Nevertheless, Cook has made some very important
new discoveries and, with Bill Rose's continued efforts and
those of Canadian Aerospace historian Bill Zuk, we now have an
emerging and improved picture of Nazi and man-made flying disc
technologies.

Hand in hand with Cook's new revelations and proof that Avro
Special Projects Groups leader John CM Frost travelled, in 1953,
to a highly secret meeting in Germany with a senior scientist
(probably Richard Miethe) to discuss German flying disc
technologies of the wartime period, the skeptics will no doubt
be wheeling out the usual emotional stuff about concentration
camps and so forth to divert attention away from the
technological/aviation side. However, like so much of our
evidence, this material comes straight from the Canadian defence
archives.

As our group has said before, this is a technical investigation.
Whilst I have always concentrated upon Counter Intelligence
Corps, CIA and other declassified documents to make forward
progress, colleagues have combed other areas for new evidence.
Despite the skeptic's claim (Kevin McClure, for instance) that
"no new evidence" could emerge over 50 years after the end of
hostilities, new evidence continues to come out!

The latest development is a group photograph showing Richard
Miethe with known Paperclip scientists taken in Germany in 1945.

Nick Cook deliberately has, very understandably, steered away
from the 'UFO' aspects of his investigation although the links
are pretty clear. It's just nice to have one of the world's
leading experts in aerospace and black technologies reopening an
important debate with the timely publication of an undoubted
bestseller.

With this in mind, I shall be "spilling the beans" on many of
the latest developments and recapping the solid evidence for
man-made advanced flying discplanes on the Jeff Rense radio show
in a the very near future.

In the meantime, the game's afoot.


Tim Matthews

Author, UFO Revelation
British UFO Studies Centre









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             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 14:03:43 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 13:16:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:23:23 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >This post more than anything else demonstrates what a deceitful
 >scoundrel Easton is by his deliberate misquotation where he
 >suppresses Nick Pope's _very_next_ sentence explaining:

 >     "I'm pleased though surprised that some Defence Intelligence
 >     Staff papers have been released, because although I worked
 >     with the DIS frequently in the course of my official
 >     research and investigation into the UFO phenomenon, this was
 >     a part of my MOD work that I could never previously have
 >     discussed with the media or the public.:

 >See Sept 2 post at:

 >http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/2001/sep/m02-015.shtml


Hi Brad

You are spot on with your analysis. With regard to the
Rendlesham files, Nick is writing an article for the October
edition of UFO Magazine. This should correct the recent errors
and debunking.


Georgina Bruni

'You Can't Tell The People - The Definitive Account of the
Rendlesham Forest UFO Mystery' by Georgina Bruni. Published by
Sidgwick & Jackson Available at all good book shops and on-line
at:
www.amazon.co.uk
Countries outside UK:
www.netstoreusa.com









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                     Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 15:20:33 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 13:21:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Goldstein


 >Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 14:15:30 -0500
 >From: David Wachenschwanz <ploot@atomiccafe.com>
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 23:03:34 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: David Wachenschwanz <ploot@atomiccafe.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>>Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 16:34:51 -0500

 >>>>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>>>Date: 5 Sep 2001 15:40:13 -0700
 >>>>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>>>>Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:47:26 -0500

 >>><snip>

 >>>>Your post is simple red-baiting. It is McCarthyism, no matter
 >>>>what color to try to paint it Jerry, or what name you wish to
 >>>>give it.

 >>>>A young lady writes a letter to the President making a request
 >>>>of him. She receives no response.

 >>>A _lot_ of people write to the President and don't get replies.
 >>>The most powerful man in the free world doesn't necessarily have
 >>>the time to respond to every piece of correspondence.

 >>>Especially about something like UFOs, and the demand to disclose
 >>>all information the government possesses on UFOs.

 >>>Ever stop to think the Prez may not have access to such
 >>>information? Just because he's the Prez he isn't privy to every
 >>>little piece of classified information the spooks have.

 >>>There may be much more important things to take care of being
 >>>Prez. Like vacations in Texas. Or drunken underage daughters. Or
 >>>even the missile defense system.

 >>>Or more probable: The Prez doesn't have time to make sense out
 >>>of nonsense.

 >>One may assign the "Prez" with attributes such as inebriated
 >>children, Texas vacations (highly improbable, as he happens to
 >>live there... [sigh]) and then assign the attribute of being a
 >>sensible man, whilst the nonesense (presumably) is the UFO
 >>scenario.

 >>Did I get that write? Or are you from the same place as Gesundt,
 >>which is to say, Brobdignag?

 >>Eh?

 >>>David E Wachenschwanz

 >>Jim (tank top) Morty

 >I presume you mean "right" as in correct?

 >If so, then my reply is "wrong."

 >One can vacation where one is from. Its done all the time. I too
 >live in Texas, and while its not Palm Springs, its better than
 >some other places I've lived.

 >So, with the obvious explained, what the hell is your point?

So, what the hell is the point? What is the point of discussing
Lara Johnstone nearly to death? That point is not whether she
lives or dies but whether I can live through these endless
personal discussions regarding her actions. I've been staying
out of this swamp all along but I am now foolishly sticking my
toe in. That is because I wish we would spend more time on this
List discussing more important matters in UFO investigation and
not get caught up making personal arguments over minor issues.

What do I mean by minor issues? At the risk of seeming
insensitive, I think this Lara Johnstone action is misguided and
will not have much bearing on getting information out of the
government. I have read her website including her links with
people who have influenced her direction. In my opinion I feel
her world view is rather naive, as is her view of Ufology.

She attended one meeting of Steven Greer and decided to do
something to reveal the UFO truth, which if public would end the
world's problems. What is that something to do? Go on a weight
loss diet until there are Congressional hearings with government
disclosure. If that doesn't happen, whither away and die, not
able to take other approaches to try to enable her goals to be
reached. That, to me, sounds rather childish. Remember the type
of fit in which a child says to a parent "If you make me do any
more homework I'm going to hold my breath till I die"? .And I
would say, go ahead and do it, it's your right. I haven't seen
any news stories reporting such deaths.

Now she is heading to Washington in time for a big
anti-globalism demonstration. As in recent demonstrations there
will be a lot of people expressing their points. Most will do so
in a peaceful manner. Unfortunately at the front lines will be
assorted anarchists, hard line communist extrements ( that is
the truth, not McCarthyism) and other miscreants who came to
attack the police and trash mom and pop stores as the spawn of
the evils of capitalism. Do you remember the last WTO
Conference? They will get the headlines while screwing things up
for the legitimate protestors. I doubt whether any press at that
time will be interested in Lara Johnstone's diet for truth.

Plus, I remember from when I lived in Washington that every day
of every year there are a host of people who come from all over
the planet (and maybe beyond) who are trying to get the
President to listen to them by demonstrating in front of the
White House fence. Lara Johnstone may well be lost in the crowd
of fasters, self-flaggelators, Jesus preachers, and truthseekers
trying to be noticed.

Good luck Lara,


Josh Goldstein

By the way, I'd like all fellow Listerions to know that I
suffered making this post. I was hungry when I was inspired to
write and I delayed my lunch till I was finished. Oh, the
hardships of being on this List. Give me lunch or I will not
post for a while.











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   Sep > Sep 9

                       Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 11:27:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 13:25:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Velez


 >From: Mike Haggard <mikeh@cybertrails.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:19:57 -0700

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: 2 Sep 2001 12:35:30 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Lara Johnstone FAQ

 >>What am I consuming?
 >>I am drinking only liquids -- water with added oxygen (Cell
 >>Food), fresh fruit and vegetable juices (mixed, with added
 >>spirulina and protein powder)and herbal teas. I also once or
 >>twice a week, have some wheatgrass juice. I also occassionaly
 >>have soup drained of solids through a tea-strainer.


Hiya Mike,

You asked:

 >How is this a hunger strike?

The short answer is; It's not.

 >When Gandhi went on hunger strikes for peace he would _stop_
 >eating. No water, no food, no tea, no grass... Medically N.P.O.
 >He would suddenly be dreadfully ill and people took notice. They
 >had a visual fright in his near death. I heard Lara on the radio
 >last weekend and she sounded as perky as Kati Courik.

Yes, she does. I was impressed at how great she sounded after
weeks of (alleged) fasting. Errol commented during a live
broadcast of SDI that she sounded better now than in previous
weeks. I think we were all surprised. But then we all thought
that she was "fasting" (in the traditional sense that you site
above) and not on a kind of semi-restricted 'juice diet.'

 >The human body can exist healthy without _any_ solid food intake
 >for 35 days as long as you have water. Then it can go on for
 >much long, while damaging the body, for a time depending on the
 >health of the individual. I know, I have fasted for various
 >reason (non political) in this manner many times.

Me too Mike. It's why I was so concerned for her well-being
initially. That is; until I heard what the "fast" consisted of.
The lady is 5'10" and she started out at a 'zaftig' 195 lbs.
Sounds like she can stand to drop a few lbs. (or thirty) anyway.
;)

 >This description from the FAQ tells of a person on a diet, not a
 >fast or a strike. Sure she will lose weight and mass on this
 >diet, but she will not die. Chances are she could live many long
 >years on this very diet. So where is the threat to the leaders?

Ipso facto, there is none. I stopped "worrying" about her (and
posting about it) the second I finished reading about the 'diet'
she is on.

 >Gandhi used the hunger strike as a loaded gun and pointed it at
 >the power that be and said, "My death on your heads." This
 >little ploy is more like a pumped-up air gun with Lara saying,
 >"My palate-boredom and loose-fit clothing on your heads!" They
 >will not respond to this because they are not threatened.

More like a "plumped-up" Lara attempting to bludgeon the
President of the US into submission by threatening she will
undergo a healthy weight loss. <LOL> And yes, I too was thinking
in terms of a "Ghandi" style political fast. It's what most of
us would think of when we hear the term 'fast' used in
conjunction with an act that is 'political' in nature. Turns out
we had nothing 'real' to be concerned about. Pisses me off.
Makes me feel like I was fooled 'once again' just for taking
somebody at their word.

 >But they would not be threatened by a real strike in this issue
 >either... but a _real_ strike would at least get the media
 >attention that is currently lacking.

A "real" strike would most likely have been over by now. She
would have been hospitalized at some point and _force fed_ if
necessary in order to sustain her life. With the 'diet' that
she's on, she'll probably live long enough to dance on all of
_our_ graves!

In Spanish there is a saying that goes:

"El pero que ladra, no muerde."

It translates: "Dogs that bark, don't bite."

As far as I'm concerned this was all just a lot of 'talk'
(barking) with no real 'bite.' No real 'threat' to anyone. Lara
or President Bush. What a bring down. It's made me feel like a
jerk for even caring.

 >The Haggard,

I'm feeling "haggard" myself Mike. After you've seen your
umpteenth "dog & pony" show, the novelty (and my patience)
starts to wear a bit thin.

 >Winslow, AZ

Super-funky New York.  ;)

Regards,

John Velez, Love All, trust _few_... ;)



            A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
            www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                 johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
   "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









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               World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris Recently?

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 14:07:05 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 14:07:05 -0400
Subject: World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris Recently?



From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

Thanks to Harry Tokarz, Larry Fenwick and Nick Balaskas for
bringing this to our attention.....

ebk

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris Recently?

Stephen Greer on a radio show on Thursday night of last week -
08/30/01 - claimed that he's been contacted by a world-famous
astronaut whose name he cannot disclose, for now.

http://www.artbell.com/topics0801.html

It seems that the world-famous astronaut has sworn that he was
directly involved with an alien-crash incident after which he,
the world-famous astronaut, was in posession of incontrovertible
physical evidence of the existance of extraterrestrials.

The world-famous astronaut maintains that the evidence was taken
from him by an un-named intelligence agency. He then went
straight to William Cohen, Secretary of Defence under Clinton,
who tried to retrieve the evidence. Cohen was abruptly refused
all access.

Greer said that he is going to become even more pro-active and
blow the cover of these "illegal" operations very soon, with the
help of this well-recognized astronaut, who is committed to
getting the information out.

Greer also said that he recieved word from one of his witnesses,
'AH' of Boeing, that a scientist at JPL recently confessed to
him that all the artifacts on Mars are real and that JPL has
been covering up an alien civilization presently thriving on the
planet.









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                        Shuttle Astronauts Induction

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 14:15:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 14:15:15 -0400
Subject: Shuttle Astronauts Induction



From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

[Thanks 'Anonymouse' --ebk]


Source: Canada NewsWire

http://www.newswire.ca/releases/September2001/07/c5750.html


Attention National, Entertainment And Education Editors:

First Class of Space Shuttle Astronauts to be Inducted into
Astronaut Hall of Fame


Apollo 13 Commander Jim Lovell to Host Historic Celebration
At Kennedy Space Center Visitor Complex Nov. 9-10

CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla., Sept. 7 /CNW/ -- On November 9 and 10,
2001, space fans will have the opportunity to witness the
induction of America's first class of space shuttle astronauts
into the U.S. Astronaut Hall of Fame, joining space heroes from
Mercury, Gemini, Apollo and Skylab missions. The two-day
celebration will take place at Kennedy Space Center Visitor
Complex, marking the first time the Visitor Complex has hosted
this prestigious event, and the first time the public has been
widely invited to participate in the induction celebration. The
last induction ceremony was held in 1997 for the Apollo
astronauts. To date, 44 astronauts have been inducted into the
Astronaut Hall of Fame.

Shuttle commanders Robert L. "Bob" Crippen (STS-1, STS-7,
STS-41C, STS-41G), Joe H. Engle (STS-2, STS-51I), Richard H.
"Dick" Truly (STS-2, STS-8) and Frederick H. "Rick" Hauck
(STS-7, STS-51A, STS-26) were selected for induction by a
distinguished committee of former NASA flight directors and
officials, space journalists and a space historian. The
committee was appointed by the Astronaut Scholarship Foundation,
for which Apollo 13 Commander Jim Lovell currently serves as
Chairman.

"Space shuttle astronauts are truly unsung heroes of the space
program," said Lovell. "Many people don't realize that the
shuttle was the first vehicle to launch men into space without
being previously flight tested unmanned. It's radically
different from the spacecraft used in the Mercury, Gemini and
Apollo missions."

On Friday evening, November 9, at 7 p.m. guests will enjoy a
pre-induction celebration at the critically acclaimed
Apollo/Saturn V Center, the recently constructed home of one of
only three existing Saturn V moon rockets in the world. The
highlight of the evening will be several appearances and
meet-and-greets with previously inducted Hall of Fame
astronauts. Currently scheduled to appear are Mercury Astronaut
Scott Carpenter; Mercury and Gemini Astronaut Gordon Cooper;
Mercury, Gemini and Apollo Astronaut Wally Schirra; Gemini,
Apollo and Shuttle Astronaut John Young; Gemini and Apollo
Astronaut Jim Lovell; Gemini and Apollo Astronaut Dick Gordon;
Apollo Astronauts Rusty Schweickart and Al Worden; Skylab
Astronaut Bill Pogue; and Skylab and Shuttle Astronauts Paul
Weitz and Owen Garriott. The bill of fare includes hand-carved
roast pork loin; fresh clams and oysters; smoked salmon and
Florida crab cakes; wild mushroom risotto; international and
domestic cheeses; petit fours, cheesecake and chocolate fondue
with fresh seasonal fruit, as well as assorted non-alcoholic and
alcoholic beverages. Musical entertainment also will be
provided.

The induction ceremony will take place on Saturday, November 10,
at 2 p.m. at Kennedy Space Center Visitor Complex's Shuttle
Plaza, with an inspirational backdrop of a full-size space
shuttle replica. Scheduled Master of Ceremonies is CNN's Miami
Bureau Chief, John Zarella; host is Jim Lovell.

Space fans may purchase the entire event package for just $85
adults, $60 children ages 3-11. Package price includes admission
to the Friday evening pre-induction celebration and the Saturday
afternoon induction ceremony, as well as admission to both
Kennedy Space Center Visitor Complex and the Astronaut Hall of
Fame for three full days, November 9-11. Tickets for the
induction event may be purchased online at
http://www.kennedyspacecenter.com or by phone at 321/449-4444. A
limited number of discounted hotel rooms are also available.

By participating in this historic event, the astronauts also
help to ensure the future of the space program-each astronaut
has agreed to donate his appearance fees to the Astronaut
Scholarship Foundation, which provides scholarships to upper
level college students and those pursuing advanced degrees in
the fields of science and engineering. A nonprofit organization,
the Astronaut Scholarship Foundation was established in 1984 as
the Mercury Seven Foundation by the six surviving members of
America's original Mercury Astronauts and Mrs. Betty Grissom,
widow of the seventh, Gus Grissom.

"The money raised by the Astronaut Scholarship Foundation
ensures that America's best and brightest students have an
opportunity to pursue careers in science and engineering,
regardless of economic status," said Lovell.  "To date, 146
students have received almost $1.5 million in scholarships from
the Foundation."

For more information about the Astronaut Scholarship Foundation,
call (321) 269-6119.

Kennedy Space Center Visitor Complex, located 45 minutes east of
Orlando, Florida, offers guests the opportunity to see real
components of the International Space Station, relive man's moon
landing at the Apollo/Saturn V Center and see space shuttle
launch pads. Regular daily admission is $25 for adults and $15
for children ages 3-11, and includes access to all exhibits, the
KSC Tour of restricted areas, Astronaut Encounter, Mad Mission
to Mars 2025 and IMAX(R) space films. Kennedy Space Center
Visitor Complex is open from 9 a.m. to approximately dusk every
day except December 25 and certain launch days. The Astronaut
Hall of Fame is located just west of Kennedy Space Center, and
features space memorabilia, authentic space hardware, and
personal artifacts from America's space pioneers.

To receive our press releases electronically, please e-mail
adwyerdncinc.com

-30-

For further information:  Michelle Salyer, +1-321-449-4318, or
Heather Strickland,  +1-321-449-4273, both of KSCVC; or Linn
Burnaw of ASF, +1-321-269-6101, ext. 6176











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   Sep > Sep 10

                      Debunkers Take Root In Hollywood

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 07:08:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 07:08:18 -0400
Subject: Debunkers Take Root In Hollywood

http://www.dailynews.com/news/articles/0901/08/new16.asp



Debunkers Take Root In Hollywood

By Robert Jablon
Staff Writer

With the motto 'The Bunk Stops Here',' an international skeptics'
group said Friday it will open a Hollywood media center to
promote its views on everything from UFOs to speaking with the
dead.

The National Media Center, scheduled to open sometime next
month, will try to hook up reporters and the public with
scientists and experts to cast a critical eye on fringe science
and religious claims.

Such debunking rarely gets a voice in the media, where the ratio
might be "six believers and one skeptic," said Paul Kurtz,
chairman of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of
Claims of the Paranormal.

"We feel that the media has reached a kind of crisis ...
presenting basically propaganda for paranormal phenomena," Kurtz
said during a news conference at the Griffith Observatory in the
hills overlooking Hollywood.

"Fox Network aired the alien autopsy three times, knowing it to
be a hoax," said James Underdown, executive director of the
Center for Inquiry-West. "They're in it for the money. We're in
it for the information."

The center is part of the skeptics' group, which for decades has
tried to debunk belief in everything from faith healing and the
Shroud of Turin to homeopathic medicine.

A recent target has been John Edward, who claims to make contact
with dead people on his syndicated show "Crossing Over." Kurtz
said Edward appears to be using a series of leading questions
and tricks often used by phony mediums.

Fox spokesman Joe Earley declined to comment on the group's
complaints other than to point out that the alien autopsy
program was subtitled "Fact or Fiction?"

"The premise of the show was to determine whether or not that
was indeed real or fake," he said.

A telephone number listed on Edward's Web site rang unanswered.

The media center will be housed on Hollywood Boulevard, a
location chosen because Southern California is a center of
movie, TV and other media production -- and also a hotbed for
beliefs of all kinds that lack scientific foundation, Underdown
said.

"You could probably stand on any building in Los Angeles and hit
a golf ball, and within range of your golf shot would be a tarot
card reader, a psychic or someone else of that nature,"
Underdown said. "We feel like a lot of people are being bilked
out of their hard-earned money."

Kurtz said the nation needs another point of view.

"More Americans believe in heaven, in hell, in devils, in
communicating with the dead than any other advanced scientific
nation," he said. "It's a reversion to the Middle Ages, in one
sense."

-30-











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                      New Staffordshire UFO Group Site

From: Graham Allan <webmaster@sufog.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 18:33:46 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 07:26:34 -0400
Subject: New Staffordshire UFO Group Site


We invite you to view our new web site:

http://www.sufog.co.uk

Packed with news, articles and information about the latest
sightings in and around Staffordshire.

Feel free to have a look and let us now what you think! (Be
Nice)

We also have the exclusive footage of the latest sighting online
for you to watch - so take a look.

Please respond to the webmaster:
stuart@sufog.co.uk


Graham Allan (SUFOG Co-ordinator)
http://www.sufog.co.uk









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   Sep > Sep 10

                      Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 14:22:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 07:30:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Aldrich


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 23:11:31 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Pat McCartney <ElPatricio@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 14:40:22 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Clark
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>>Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:48:35 -0500

<snip>

 >It should surprise me that Lara is taking more of a beating as
 >the days go by. It don't. Almost as if people lurking are
 >waiting for another bash before adding their own voices to the
 >cacophony. This is something for which we should be grateful.
 >But no. We look for any item which would detract from her
 >generous efforts. The end result? The sum total of human
 >knowledge is detracted from.

 >Jimmy


Jimmy,

I see if someone disagrees with Lara and so states, they are
bashing her.

Her generous efforts? Perhaps. However, I would say, misguided!
What is going to happen if she indeed become gravely ill or dies
on this hunger strike? Will there be an outpour for her in the
press or would it more likely be--

"Repeating the common theme of various extreme cults, Heaven's
Gate and the Solar Temple, yet another suicide attempt
today... a woman claiming that the government had secret
evidence of UFO invaders was take to the local hospital in
serious condition. She had vowed to fast until President George
Bush release the truth about extraterrestrials here among us.

"Dr. J. William Knowitallski sociologist at Mountain Majic
University, decried yet another suicide action by what he
termed, 'fringe believers disassociated for the social
mainstream.'

"'Some may call it book burning,' Dr. Knowitallski continued,
'but I applauded those librarians who removed UFO books for
their shelves at the time of the Heaven's Gate suicides. Such
literature is dangerous to the mental health of the young
generation. This latest incident just proves this point.'"

I disagree with Lara Johnstone. Her actions will probably not
result in the goal she wishes, but will further discredit
ufology. Good intentions do indeed pave the road to Hell!

There are hundreds of UFO conspiracy theories, if every last
scrap of paper, film, photograph or other material under
government control were released, there would still be plenty of
people dissatisfied. I think some in the government realize
this.

The US government is not forthcoming with UFO information! Even
people who think there is nothing to UFOs will agree with this
statement. In some, but not all cases the government has, in
fact, obfuscated and deliberately been non-responsive to
legitimate requests for information. Sparks, Greenwood, Todd,
Fawcett, myself, we have all experienced this. Be that as it
may, Lara Johnson will probably not have the desired effect, and
probably do more to hinder than help.

Turn your statement around, you are bashing everyone who
disagrees with Lara Johnstone.


Jan Aldrich









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                  Re: World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris

From: James Oberg <JamesOberg@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 14:12:40 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 07:33:15 -0400
Subject: Re: World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris


 >Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 14:07:05 -0400
 >To: "02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris Recently?

 >From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >Thanks to Harry Tokarz, Larry Fenwick and Nick Balaskas for
 >bringing this to our attention.....

 >ebk

 >_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

 >World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris Recently?

 >Stephen Greer on a radio show on Thursday night of last week -
 >08/30/01 - claimed that he's been contacted by a world-famous
 >astronaut whose name he cannot disclose, for now.

 >http://www.artbell.com/topics0801.html


If this is real, the 'anonoymous' astronaut is a fool to think
his 'leak' won't be traced directly back to him. Hey, just get a
lit of ALL astronauts who have talked to secdef Cohen about UFO
samples, and eliminate the innocent ones.

I suspect the namelessness is another Greer gimmick, probably to
pre-hype another tall tale from dear Gordon Cooper, who knows
how to please the audiences he has chosen to appear before.










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                        The Politicalization Of UFOs

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 19:42:22 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 07:38:11 -0400
Subject: The Politicalization Of UFOs


Errol and List,

I am among those who feel that the Greerites, with all their
dubious tactics and politicalization of UFOs, are dominating the
subject (and this List) far too much. Kudos to Brad Sparks and
Jan Aldrich for their recently posted cogent remarks on this
issue, and also on the Johnstone extension of the same
phenomenon, I applaud Jerry Clark, Josh Goldstein, John Velez,
and Bob (even skeptics may be right sometimes) Young.

'Radicalization' is another word that applies to this extremist
takeover of the UFO subject. Once again, I urge people to check
out the web site and various postings of the Disclosure Project
spokesman and 'main man', Alfred L. Webre (not hard to find with
the unusual name spelling). He has made some of the most extreme
and outrageous political statements of anyone involved. The
radical tactics advocated by the Greerites are not only
extremist, as has been pointed out recently they are not even
based on credible or reliable information. It's "storm the
ramparts and truth be damned," all too reminiscent of the
mindless bottle and bomb throwing of anarchists.

All of this serves as a distraction from serious UFO research,
and does absolutely nothing to advance human knowledge. To the
contrary, it obscures far more important and valuable efforts
and, in effect, amounts to a 'UFO cover-up' by people whose
political motivations are highly suspect and whose standards of
logic and evidence are practically nonexistent. They are
muddling up and confusing the entire subject with their
shenanigans, which makes for a very effective 'cover-up'.


Dick










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                  Re: World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 16:01:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 07:42:30 -0400
Subject: Re: World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris



 >From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >Thanks to Harry Tokarz, Larry Fenwick and Nick Balaskas for
 >bringing this to our attention.....

 >ebk

 >_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

 >World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris Recently?

 >Stephen Greer on a radio show on Thursday night of last week -
 >08/30/01 - claimed that he's been contacted by a world-famous
 >astronaut whose name he cannot disclose, for now.

 >http://www.artbell.com/topics0801.html

 >It seems that the world-famous astronaut has sworn that he was
 >directly involved with an alien-crash incident after which he,
 >the world-famous astronaut, was in posession of incontrovertible
 >physical evidence of the existance of extraterrestrials.

 >The world-famous astronaut maintains that the evidence was taken
 >from him by an un-named intelligence agency. He then went
 >straight to William Cohen, Secretary of Defence under Clinton,
 >who tried to retrieve the evidence. Cohen was abruptly refused
 >all access.

 >Greer said that he is going to become even more pro-active and
 >blow the cover of these "illegal" operations very soon, with the
 >help of this well-recognized astronaut, who is committed to
 >getting the information out.

 >Greer also said that he recieved word from one of his witnesses,
 >'AH' of Boeing, that a scientist at JPL recently confessed to
 >him that all the artifacts on Mars are real and that JPL has
 >been covering up an alien civilization presently thriving on the
 >planet.

You can tell me this story right after I tell you mine about
with recovered an alien spaceship from the DMZ in Korea. Clark
Clifford, Johnson's Secretary of Defense, General Harold K.
Johnston, the JCS chief and General Bonesteel, 8th Army and
United Nations Forces Command, all saw this object. Oh, and John
Glenn was there too. Forgot the astronaut, sorry. Much of the
military build up in Korea was not because of the Pueblo, it
wasn't, it was because of this recovery.

There, do I get to go on Art Bell and make completely
unsubstantiated BS!? Enough is enough! When are we going to quit
falling for this hype? Put up or shut up!

Harry, Larry and Nick, you guys, should hang your heads in shame
for helping to spead this kind of thing. Get something more than
just, "Greer said." I think this indicate that Greer has no
traction and is trying to hype up the situation with more
sensationalism. What a joke.


Bull Butter!

Jan Aldrich










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             Re: CE: - Wired News Covers UFO Disclosure - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 15:49:52 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 07:44:11 -0400
Subject: Re: CE: - Wired News Covers UFO Disclosure - Young


 >Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 02:09:52 EDT
 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@AOL.COM>
 >Subject: Re: Wired News Covers UFO Disclosure
 >To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

<snip>

 >What I want to know is why I should support (a) such a pack of
 >liars and cheats who tell such mammoth whoppers, and (b) a
 >Disclosure Project headed by people so stupid and incompetent
 >that they cannot tell that these are lies and/or amazingly have
 >not obtained the services of those who CAN tell, among all the
 >HUNDREDS of so-called EXPERTS they've retained, or they DO KNOW
 >these are lies and themselves are lying to the public about the
 >liar witnesses.

Brad:

Thank you for the rundown on several of the Disclosure claims. I
go for "all of the above".


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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                Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 -

From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 19:07:56 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 07:56:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 -


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 19:14:29 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

Brad wrote:

 >The issue was Easton suppressing Pope's explanation not
 >whether it was a very good or convincing explantion.

I think 'suppressing' is perhaps too emotive a term Brad. The
plain fact is that so few people believe the twists and turns of
Nick's narratives that it hardly seems worth mentioning them
sometimes.

 >I will add that I appreciate what you're trying to say here and
 >Pope will simply have to answer for himself on this.

As I'm sure he will. But I'm pleased you appreciate what I say.
If you look carefully at the contradictions in Nick's statements
about the Rendlesham documents he is very specific (in the
interview he did with Dave and I earlier this year) as to what
was and what wasn't in the file. Now he appears to be claiming
to have seen it all and has back-engineered the story to fit.

 From quite a few conversations and a lenghty interview with
Nick, I share Dave Clarke's belief that Nick saw very little
when he was in post at the MOD and it is only in the light of a
book publishing deal that he is 'remembering' files as they are
released. Pah!

Well, ok, you can get away with a trick like this maybe once.
Let's see what happens next time an MOD rabbit is produced from
the bag and see how Nick pretends he knew all about this one.

The bag's wriggling. That rabbit won't stay in there much
longer!


Happy Trails

Andy









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                Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 -

From: Nick Redfern <Skywatcher4u@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 16:27:02 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 08:03:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 -


Hi All,

I've followed with a keen interest the ongoing debate re. the
recently released British Ministry of Defence file on the
Rendlesham incident and Nick Pope's comments.

I thought I would throw in a few comments that might be worth
considering.

I interviewed Nick in 1994 for my first book, A Covert Agenda,
and we discussed the case.

Nick told me, on audio-tape, that the Rendlesham file that was
in his office only contained the Halt memo; the News Of The
World newspaper piece from 1983 (and related news clippings);
and correspondence with members of the public.

He also told me (on tape too) that he had not seen any documents
that related in any way to any sort of MoD investigation of the
case. Moreover, he went on to say that in his opinion no such
papers existed.

He also denied (on tape again) that the file he saw contained
the covering letter that Sqdn. Leader Moreland sent to the MoD
with Halt's memo. The file does contain that memo and Nick's
only response now is that he doesn't know why he told me this.

Therefore, cover-up or foul-up, the fact is that Pope didn't say
anything along the lines of "Oh, I may have seen other papers
and files that I can't discuss because of the constraints of the
Official Secrets Act."

He was very clear about what was in the file to which he had
access and very clear in his views that the MoD had not
investigated the case.

Can anyone shed any light on Nick's curious (and to me totally
baffling) assertion that the Moreland covering letter wasn't in
the file and that he had never seen it?

One final thing to ponder on: Nick has been very vocal in
lectures/books and magazine interviews about his belief that
the March 31, 1993, "Flying Triangle" sighting at RAF Shawbury,
England, had a bearing on national security and the defence of
the UK.

However, when I interviewed him in '94 for my book (more than 12
months after the Shawbury encounter) he told me (again on tape)
that he had never come across a UFO report that had a bearing on
national security.

Any comments?


Nick Redfern









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             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke

From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 22:10:33 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 08:16:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 19:08:12 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >>Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 16:58:41 +0100

Brad Sparks writes:

 >As usual Clarke changes the subject and expects no one to
 >notice.

 >Clarke changes the subject to arguing over whether Pope's
 >explanation is satisfactory instead of dealing with the issue of
 >Easton's deliberate suppression of Pope's explanation. Clarke
 >may well be right that Pope's explanation is unsatisfactory in
 >some way, but that doesn't excuse Easton from waxing indignant
 >over Pope insinuating that Pope never even addressed the issue,
 >however convincingly or not, when in fact Pope did so and Easton
 >refused to quote it, even though it was the very next sentence
 >following the one Easton did quote.

This is just gobbledygook, plain and simple to evade the fact
that, as Sparks reluctantly accepts I "may well be right."

Whether Easton misquoted Pope is irrelevant, as what Pope had to
say simply did not fit either the facts, or what Pope himself
had been previously quoted as saying on the same subject!

 >Pope should explain this more fully but until then we can easily
 >imagine that because of Pope's relatively more "public" role he
 >may have been given more stringent instructions about concealing
 >the existence and activities of other intelligence sections
 >involved with UFO's even though those other sections' personnel
 >were not given similar instructions -- they didn't need to since
 >their role wasn't as visible or exposed as Pope's was.

Quite an assumption from someone who accuses others of making
assumptions!

Of course, Pope won't respond in person to these very reasonable
questions - he will only respond either:

a) through his official spokeswoman Georgina Bruni

b) through the pages of UFO magazine whose readers will pay
�2.95 for the privilege of reading a response to "debunkers"
whose original questions the readers will not be allowed to read
before they see Pope's response!

For a magazine that accuses others of "censorship" and
"cover-up" that's quite revealing in itself.

 >>The point here is not that Pope was _unable_ as a result of the
 >>Official Secrets Act to discuss the DIS role in the
 >>investigation of the Rendlesham Forest incident, but simply that
 >>he was _unaware_ of their involvement in this particular case at
 >>the time he was incumbent at Sec (AS)2a. At that time (1992-94)

 >More assumptions in changing the subject, assuming Pope was
 >unaware of the secret files instead of unable to discuss their
 >existence. The issue was Easton's suppression of Pope's
 >explanation that he previously couldn't discuss the secret files
 >and indignantly acting as if he had no explanation, not whether
 >it was the correct explanation or not.

What a load of bunkum. Pope's contradictions are the central
issue - not whether Sparks has got an axe to grind with Easton.
My conclusion that Pope had _never_ seen the DIS files on
Rendlesham that he now, in retrospect claims to have seen, is
_not_ an assumption - it comes directly from the words of Pope
himself.

Readers can read the relevant part of the my interview with Pope
from April 2001 and make up their own mind who is telling the
truth and who is obfusicating the issue.

The complete transcript of the section of the interview that
deals with Rendlesham can be downloaded from:

www.flyingsaucery.com

I hope to make the full interview available to researchers in
the future.

---

NP: Nick Pope
DC: Dave Clarke

NP: I find Rendlesham bizarre; looking at the Rendlesham Forest
file, it starts obviously with Halt's memo and Don Moreland's
covering note and then frankly there isn't a lot. In fact, as I
recall, I don't think there is anything until the News of the
World and Chuck de Caro's documentary, some papers from the
Public Affairs Office 3rd Air Force about the handling of this
and then it turns into correspondence. Now I suppose there are
two options - who knows, maybe Nick Redfern's right.

DC: There must be something missing there then?

NP: Something missing or missing a trick, but it depends what
you mean. If you look very carefully at what you have been told
about Rendlesham, it says I think nothing more than Colonel Halt's
report was examined carefully at the time by those officers
responsible for looking at the Air Defence of the realm and the
conclusion was that nothing of any defence significance was involved
and as such no further action was taken.

Well, that is I'm sure technically a true statement. Whether it
implies that anyone actually sat down and did any sort of
sucking of teeth, you know, interviewing of witnesses, etc I
don't think it does - I think if that memo arrived to DS8 at the
time, side-copied to two or three specialist divisions and if it
had sat on file with nothing else being done then the statements
made on Rendlesham are still true; it was examined by, because
when it came out of the envelope it would have been read, so it
was examined by, and its almost chicken and egg by virtue of the
fact that they placed it on the file and didn't do any
investigation with a capital 'I', you could say well, its an
assumption of course, but if you trust people to know their jobs
they must have looked at them, they must have concluded for
whatever reason that there was nothing of any defence
significance.

So the statements that you got were not falsehoods, but I think
and you know I have to be careful what I say here, I think I
think they are potentially misleading. I can see why Ufologists
would feel that they had been misled.

I still think it is a case of a mistake rather than a missing
file, I really don't think that the nettle was grasped. Unless
Halt and Moreland and you know, even in most of the USAF
patrols, they say, and Halt and Moreland certainly say, I wrote
my report and I forwarded it and we heard nothing back, nobody
interviewed us, nobody phoned me up and asked for further
details, nobody came and asked to interview the primary
witnesses, this didn't happen.

DC: Are you saying then that the letter and cover-note dated the
13 January1981 was the first that the MOD would have heard about
the case?

NP: Yes. Yes. I think so. Yes.

DC: But it doesn't seem there was any level of concern does it,
especially if this had been something sent by the Russians!

NP: It doesn't but then if you think about it, if everyone had a
little piece of something, but I don't think there was anyone
who was in a position to put it all together

DC: So you're saying there was no cover-up over Rendlesham?

NP: I'm aware of no cover-up over Rendlesham. I'm aware of - and
I chose my words carefully again - what I can understand might
be perceived as almost acriminal lack of action..as you know
anything that is perceived as acover-up I actually think it is
bureaucracy or cock-up or whatever. Bear in mind as well that
the fact that the desk officer [tape break]

DC: I don't want to prattle on about Rendlesham for too long,
and there are other important cases, but I want to ask you do
you think there is anything else to emerge?

NP: Not from the official records in Britain, no.

[END OF INTERVIEW]


Note, UpDates readers, that one month before the MOD released
the Rendlesham Forest file to me (in May 2001) I asked Nick Pope
a direct question: "do you think there is anything else to
emerge" and his answer was "Not from the official records in
Britain, no."

Please bear that answer in mind when you read his response to my
"debunking" in the October issue of UFO magazine.

Ask yourself this: if Pope maintains there was no cover-up over
Rendlesham by the British MOD will he be taking issue with
Georgina Bruni and Graham Birdsall, editor of UFO Magazine, who
in the September 2001 issue claimed the new files revealed:

"..... how officials briefed Ministers to deliberately mislead
both houses of Parliament, what emerges from these files is a
20-year-long official cover-up that stretches to the highest
echelons of government".


Dave Clarke

"The Skeptick doth neither affirm, neither denie any position;
but doubteth of it." --Sir Walter Raleigh


www.flyingsaucery.com











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                                    Irony

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 18:41:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 08:22:51 -0400
Subject: Irony


I'm glad I don't gag easily on irony. Those seemingly so
concerned with Ms. Johnstone's health and welfare previously are
now astonishingly critical that she's not being anywhere near
hard enough on herself. Perhaps we should all try for a smidgeon
more consistency.

Moreover, dismissed as a fat girl with a commie agenda,
conveniently losing weight for 15 minutes of fame... is contrary
to the reality of a nation functioning as the Rome of the 21st
century, a nation much better served by strident criticism than
reactionary and uninformed adulation.

This woman holds herself proudly while standing for righteous
principal. She maintains her position while sustaining withering
patronization, ridicule, and insult. She confronts a legitimate
problem head-on while others otherwise count points, airily
pronounce and blithely pontificate.

That's the alien view.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the scurrilous.










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                ET Politics In Clinton White House - Part 4 -

From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
Date: 9 Sep 2001 19:01:48 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 08:36:57 -0400
Subject: ET Politics In Clinton White House - Part 4 -


Extraterrestrial Politics in the Clinton White House: White
House Interest - Part 4

    "Recently I was in Washington meeting with a very famous
    astronaut. Everyone would know this person's name... This
    particular astronaut had during his career been in possession
    of a very specific piece of incontrovertible piece of
    evidence related to UFOs. It is something that if disclosed
    would clear and definitive. This astronaut described how he
    had approached and worked directly with President Clinton's
    Secretary of Defense William Cohen to look into and retrieve
    from classified projects this specific piece of evidence - of
    that which he had all the specific details... the words used
    by this astronaut to me were "there was an inordinate large
    amount of money and personal time by the Secretary of Defense
    William Cohen was spent to locate this evidence, and he was
    never given access to it."

        Dr. Steven Greer Interview with Art Bell August 30, 2001


UFO Interest in the Clinton White House

During a late November 1995 address in Ireland, President
Clinton took time from his speech to express frustration at not
being able to get any information on UFOs. In particular,
Clinton expressed frustration about the 1947 crash of an unknown
craft near Roswell, New Mexico. If bodies of aliens had been
recovered in Roswell, the President told the crowd, "The Air
Force didn't tell me about it, and I would like to know."

In response the President's "I would like to know" comment,
Clinton received a letter from Paul Davids, the executive
producer and co-writer of the movie 'Roswell'. Davids later
wrote about his letter to the President.

"I sent the President a two page letter urging a change of
policy regarding the secrecy and classification of documents
surrounding the UFO issue in so many cases. I enclosed four
videotapes: The movie 'Roswell' (of which I was Executive
Producer and co-writer), and three documentaries I prepared that
present UFO evidence: 'Down in Roswell' (a compendium of news
coverage through the years on the Roswell Incident); 'Reply to
the Air Force Report on the Roswell Incident' (an indictment of
the Air Force 'Mogel Balloon' report), and 'Golden Anniversary
UFO Briefing for the White Sands Missile range Pioneers.' (Based
on a UFO presentation to the 50th Anniversary of the White Sands
Missile Range and Proving Grounds.)"

When it has been general practice since 1977 for the White House
to re-route all UFO letters to NASA (or as in the case of Hunger
Striker Lara Johnstone, to be totally ignored by the President
Bush). Clinton's treatment of Davids letter was different. It
showed that the President held a genuine interest in the subject
of Roswell. Davids recalled the Clinton White House handling of
his letter.

"To my surprise, a brief reply was sent to me by the President
immediately following the date of Richard Hoagland's Washington
Press Club Conference in which Hoagland cited lunar anomalies
that support possible conclusions of ancient alien artifacts on
those worlds. The reply was overnighted by Priority Mail in a
priority envelope. (Previous correspondence from Bill Clinton
was always by standard first class mail.) My letter to the
President had been marked Personal and Confidential. His reply
was marked Personal."

"The President expressed gratitude and appreciation for my
having sent him the videocassettes, calling it generous and
thoughtful on my part, and he passed on Hillary's best wishes to
me as well."

Clinton's positive reaction to Davids letter was consistent with
a commitment he had made to the subject of UFOs while still
running for President. That commitment indicated that Clinton
was truly interested in the UFO subject. The commitment also
represented the only time a U.S. President's has addressed the
UFO phenomena in writing prior to being elected. Writing on his
personal letterhead, then President-elect Clinton wrote a
constituent named Michael,

"Thank-you for voicing your opinion on UFOs. A Clinton-Gore
administration will seek to meet the needs of the U.S. and other
nations while moving towards our long-term space objectives,
including human exploration of the solar system. We will also
stress efforts to learn about other planets which improves our
understanding of our own world, and stimulates advances in
computers, sensors, image processing, and communications."

Once elected, however, the President found out quickly that he
and his elected officials were being cut out of the government
UFO process. The President was forced to allow outsiders in to
provide UFO information to his staff. This exclusion from the
data caused the President great frustration. Years later Sarah
McClendon, a senior White House reporter, confirmed to Dr.
Steven Greer the rumored President's frustration, and the cause
for it.

McClendon told Dr. Greer that she had, at one point, asked the
President Clinton why he didn't do something about disclosing
the truth about UFOs. McClendon told Greer that the President
had leaned over and said to her, "Sarah, there's a secret
government within the government, and I have no control over
it."

Moreover, according to another story related to Dr. Greer, the
President found himself not only out of the loop, but in a
situation where he even feared for his life over the UFO issue.
Greer recounted the story as it was told to him,

"A friend of the President came to my home, after I met with CIA
Director James Woolsey. (December 1993) Now this is a guy who is
sort of a Democratic Party big wig. He said, "Steve, I don't
think we can do this, although we support the objectives.'(of
the UFO Disclosure proposal) I said, 'Why not?' Now this guy is
a big kidder. I thought he was joking. He said, 'Well, we're
convinced that if the President does what your asking him to do,
and what you've asked his CIA Director to do, he'll end up like
Jack Kennedy."

"I went, 'ha ha ha."

Then he said, 'I'm serious.' He was not joking. There's a lot of
fear, and a lot of intimidation."

The perceived threats against the President did not, however,
completely immobilize the President on the issue. It was not as
if the Clinton search for UFO truth ended, or that he began a
passive wait in the Oval Office hoping someone would come in and
tell him what was going on. He did make some moves such as, on
April 17, 1995, when he made a move he hoped would help the
Disclosure process.

What he did was to sign Executive Order 12958, which directed
that all government records of historical value and those 25
years or older be immediately reviewed and declassified, unless
meeting one of nine narrowly-defined exemptions. Clinton's
Executive Order required that all these records be reviewed, or
exempted from declassification by April 2000. It was hoped that
this declassification would open up the UFO documents everyone
was seeking.

As 1995 moved along, however, it was evident that "those in the
know who constitutionally were obligated to brief Clinton" were
not about to voluntarily provide him the UFO story.

It led President Clinton to make a second move to aid
disclosure. He began tasking the heads of various departments
within his government to bring him the answer to the UFO
mystery.

In addition, he opened the White House doors so that almost
every one of his key cabinet members and friends were given UFO
briefing from knowledgeable members of the public. People like
Greer, Rockefeller, and Farley moved in to provide UFO
information and briefings.

One of the first cabinet members to be tasked with the UFO
problem was Hillary's Clinton's former law partner, and then
head of the Justice Department, Webster Hubbell. Hubbell
recalled the UFO mission Clinton had tasked him with in his
memoir "Friends in High Places".

According to Hubbell, Clinton had said, "if I put you over at
Justice I want you to find the answers to two questions for me,
- One, who killed JFK. And two, are there UFOs."

"Clinton was dead serious," Hubbell wrote, "I had looked into
both but wasn't satisfied with the answers I was getting." It
was later revealed that Hubbell had even gone to NORAD
headquarters to get an answer for the President, but there too
he had run up against a brick wall of denial.

The public airing by Hubbell that Clinton had an obsession to
find out about UFOs and the JFK assassination did cause some
embarrassment at the White House. Mike McCurry, the President's
Press Secretary, immediately faced the question of confirming or
denying what Hubbell had written in his book.

The problem of answering the question was not simple. Not only
did McCurry have to answer the question, but also he had to do
it without putting Hubbell down. This was because Hubbell had
been subpoenaed to testify about the White Water scandal that
was dogging the Clintons. Hubbell knew where the bodies were
buried, so the Clinton White House didn't dare make him angry.

The tact that McCurry used to escape the Hubbell UFO question
was brilliant. In fact, he used the same technique that has been
used against UFOs by various government agencies for over 50
years. He mocked the subject of UFOs, and avoided discussion of
the President's involvement.

McCurry did this by referring to an alien that had appeared on
the front cover of the Weekly World News newspaper tabloid
shaking hands with the President. The humorous issue with the
picture of Clinton and the alien ran five months before the
Clinton 1992 election victory, and it headlined the story that
the alien was backing Clinton for the election. So when asked to
confirm the "New York Post" story that Clinton had tasked
Webster Hubbell to look into UFOs, McCurry stated,

"No. We have a regular briefing in the Oval Office with this
space alien that some tabloids report. (Laughter.) Maybe the New
York Post hasn't reported that, but we asked the space creature
to look into that story."

Files from the Clinton Office for Science and technology Policy
showed that Clinton's Science Advisor, Jack Gibbons, had also
been involved in attempting to get an answer to the UFO mystery
for the Clinton White House. The particular investigation that
Gibbons' office undertook related to UFOs concerned the crash of
a mysterious object near Roswell, New Mexico in July 1947.

To fulfill his role for the President, Gibbons tasked the Air
Force to do a full investigation of the Roswell incident. He
also cooperated with a General Accounting Office investigation,
initiated by New York Congressman Steven Schiff, into the events
surrounding the 1947 New Mexico crash.

History does not yet tell us whether Clinton tasked Gibbons to
investigate UFOs, or whether Gibbons knew that he better play
along with Clinton's friend (Laurance Rockefeller) who was
heading up the request to the White House for UFO information.

It is now fairly clear, however, that although UFOs may have
been a pet interest of the President, but it was not a subject
that did not bring Gibbons any joy. This Gibbons' distaste for
the subject of UFOs is clearly spelled out in many of the OSTP
documents. People who dealt with Gibbons on the issue of UFOs
also relate his unease with the subject.

Dick Farley was one of the insiders who stated Gibbons was not
happy with his "UFO assignment" for the President. Farley was a
member of the Rockefeller team that first briefed Gibbons on
UFOs in 1993 (shortly after Clinton took office). Farley wrote
that Gibbons "maintained the posture that his efforts were
really to 'protect' the President by keeping him away from UFO
issues and Laurance Rockefeller's inquiries."

Gibbons had also stated right up front in the first briefing
with Rockefeller that "he was an agnostic, that if there was
some evidence there he would be glad to look at it. But at this
point he had no such evidence."

When Laurance Rockefeller sent his draft Presidential UFO letter
to Jack Gibbons for his input in late 1995, Gibbons had another
chance to comment on UFOs. The comments Gibbons wrote in the
margins of the draft were indicative of his disbelief.

In the draft letter Rockefeller had suggested Gibbons' OSTP office be a "coordin
ator for government information about ETI and UFOs." Gibbons scribbled in the ma
rgin, "Please, no!" At the end of the letter Gibbons scribbled three points that
 summed up his conclusion to the UFO involvement of his OSTP office, and the Roc
kefeller UFO evidence.

-open invitation to the nuts
-overwhelm OSTP
-no evidence

The biggest indicator that Gibbons did not share the President's
love of UFOs came in a August 1995 letter that Jack Gibbons had
written to the President. It was just days before the President
was scheduled to receive a long awaited briefing on UFOs from
Laurance Rockefeller. Gibbons wrote like a man who had tried to
save the company from collapse, but was now announcing to the
owner that the company was broke. Gibbons letter to President
Clinton was an acknowledgment that, despite his best efforts,
Rockefeller had made it around him, and was now going to sell
UFOs to the President in person. Gibbons also outlined his
displeasure with the UFO subject, and how things had turned out.

"Soon after you were inaugurated Les Aspin and Mel Laird
referred Laurance to me concerning the famous 'Roswell
incident,' dating from 1947, in which UFO buffs claimed a flying
saucer crashed near the town of Roswell, New Mexico... I
persuaded Rockefeller not to bother you with this issue but
instead to let me talk to defense officials to see if there was
anything to the story... the bottom line is that all evidence
points to a failed U.S. Air Force balloon experiment, and no
evidence of a 'Flying saucer' or cover-up conspiracy. . .
Rockefeller may thank you for the openness of the
Administration, including his ability to work with me... he
knows that we are trying to be helpful in responding to his
concerns about UFOs... but I've made it no secret that we must
not be too diverted from more earthly imperatives."

Besides the members of Clinton's staff like Hubbell and Gibbons
who had been given "UFO jobs," we now know that a whole series
of close Clinton staffers were receiving UFO briefing from a
variety of sources.

Some, like Clinton Press Secretary Dee Dee Myers, took the UFO
information she had received and went on to be a media
consultant for the movie "Contact." This was the 1997 movie that
included a clip of President Clinton announcing that astronomers
had just made the first contact with extraterrestrials.  It was
a video clip that had been carefully reworked to make it appear
like an announcement of the discovery of an extraterrestrial
message. It was in reality only a statement made in August 1996
by President Clinton regarding the discovery of possible
bacterial evidence found in a Martian meteor.

The Presidential clip, although clearly faked to be something it
was not, produced almost no hostile response or legal action
from the Clinton White House.

Other Clinton press secretaries had also been dragged into the
UFO mess. Most were finding the UFO questions difficult to deal
with. Joe Lockhart, for example, when approached at a White
House reception about UFOs for the second time by a friend of
reporter Sarah McClendon made it clear he no longer wished to
discuss the subject. Lockhart then went to the far side of the
room where he remained for the remainder of the reception.

Mike McCurry, on the other hand, usually handled the subject
with caustic or humorous comments. An example of this occured
when asked during a news conference by one reporter asked if the
President might be going to Roswell. McCurry replied, " I didn't
say a thing. No, we don't need to go there because we were there
in the flying saucer yesterday.

In 1996 McCurry faced numerous UFO questions due to the release
of the movie "Independence Day," and the possible discovery of
signs of life in a Martian meteor. The first questions came just
days "Independence Day." They centered on the movie's theme of
invading aliens that had blown up the White House as part of
their attack. Two reporters from the "Florida Today" newspaper
asked McCurry if the White House had any plan for an alien
invasion attack if it were to come. McCurry replied that there
were no plans.

Further inquiries by the reporters about a possible
"Independence Day" scenario led McCurry to say that if the
aliens did attack, "I just hope it's one of those days when
Whitewater or the FBI files have dominated the news."

Shortly after this questioning about "Independence Day" Bill and
Hillary returned to vacation in the Tetons where they had
received their UFO briefing the year before from Laurance
Rockefeller. The vacation also came only days after President
Clinton read his statement on the South Lawn of the White House
announcing that scientists had found a Martian meteorite that
showed possible signs of biological life. All these factors
seemed to come together for a great UFO one liner when McCurry
was asked if the President planned to head back to Washington
early as he had the year before. McCurry replied,

He will hold to that tradition. The only thing that would compel
a high public profile is if space aliens came to Washington and
destroyed the White House. (Laughter.) That would probably
compel him to come out of his blissful vacation mode.

The briefing for Clinton administration members appeared to have
started even before the President took office. The first of many
was an offer of a UFO briefing to the Clinton White House from
former Nixon Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird. At the urging of
Laurance Rockefeller, Laird wrote to his good friend Les Aspin,
the Clinton Defense Secretary designee, offering to brief him on
UFOs.

Also called in by Rockefeller to help with the White House UFO
briefing initiative was the famous evangelist Billy Graham - a
man who claimed friendships with many U.S. Presidents. Graham
had spoken earlier of his belief in extraterrestrial life in a
book he had written about angels. Graham had supplemented this
statement about extraterrestrial life in an interview that he
had given on Clinton's Inauguration Day to interviewer David
Frost.

Rockefeller wrote Graham that he would like Graham to co-sign a
letter to the President "requesting that he review the present
secret classification of government information pertaining to
UFOs and related phenomena." Rockefeller told Graham in his
letter that he was considering Maurice Strong, Perez de Cuellar,
and ex-President Jimmy Carter as other possible signatories to
the letter.

Graham, although supportive of the efforts to gain
declassification for the UFO subject, turned down the offer to
sign the letter to President Clinton. He wrote Rockefeller,

"Naturally, I was most interested to hear of your desire to get
declassification of documents changed so that they will be
available to researchers and those with an interest in the
so-called UFOs, etc. I think you are exactly right, that since
they are reviewing the whole classification process, many
documents will probably become available that have not
previously.

I also appreciate your invitation to me to be a part of those
signing such a letter of request to the President. However, over
the years I have mad it a policy not to co-sign such letters,
but keep my contacts with presidents on a purely, personal,
one-on-one, private basis. In this way I have an opportunity to
discuss many issues and subjects over the years with nobody
knowing about it, no publicity, and they have the assurance that
I will not discuss what we talked about... I hope you will
understand."

The early UFO briefings given to White House staff did not stop
at Les Aspin. Bruce Lindsay, Clinton's legal counsel, Arkansas
friend, and key figure inside the White House trying to contain
the Monica Lewinsky story, was briefed on the subject of UFOs by
Dr. Steven Greer's Project Starlight staff. Nothing has yet
become public about how Lindsey reacted or what efforts he made
to help the Clinton Administration end UFO secrecy.

Lindsey was one of the Arkansas Clinton inner circle members who
helped pick many of the cabinet members for Clinton during the
transition in 1992-93. He may have been a part of another group
of "close associates" of President Clinton who were briefed in
Little Rock after Clinton realized he was being stonewalled on
his UFO inquiries. The briefer to this group of Clinton
associates was Mars and UFO investigator Richard Hoagland.

The mention of the briefing was first made public in an
interview Hoagland conducted with Art Bell. It received very
little attention at the time, due partly to disbelief that a
group attached to the President would be gathered together in
Little Rock, to obtain UFO information that the President should
be able to get with a phone call.

According to an account of the Hoagland led UFO briefing, He
gave the briefing over two nights. "The first night went well,
the second night was headed-off, and attendees were told that
Hoagland had left for Texas."

In 1998 White House reporter Sarah McClendon added another name
to the list of people briefed in the White House. McClendon ran
a story stating that Clinton's key National Security Advisor
Anthony Lake had also received a briefing on UFOs. Lake was
confronted about his knowledge of UFOs story during an
appearance on the PBS Diane Rehm talk show. Lake was so
flustered with the question (which centered on his knowledge of
Roswell - a case the Clinton administration had spend a lot of
effort investigating) that he literally provided no answer at
all. Diane Rehm was forced to step in and talk to the caller.

Then following a speech Lake gave in April 1998 at Princeton
University, he was asked directly about the McClendon story that
during his term as National Security Advisor to Clinton he had
been briefed about UFOs. This time, Lake at least had a response
to the UFO question but it was an answer that was very strange.

"This is very classified. But if you look at Independence Day,
the contact with the space aliens, the description of the aliens
is just about perfect. No, that's nonsense. Absolute nonsense. I
never got a briefing. There is no, what is it Roswell. Unless, I
never heard of Roswell...Area 51.I never heard of it... "

The briefers of Anthony Lake were rumored to be Dr. Greer's
CSETI Starlight group. I therefore put the question of the
National Security Advisor's claim of UFO ignorance and his
denial of a UFO briefing to Dr. Greer following a lecture he
gave at Laughlin, Nevada in March 2001. Speaking to Lake's claim
of UFO ignorance, Greer responded, "Not true." As to Anthony
Lake's claim that he was never briefed, Dr. Greer stated,

"A member of my team provided him with those materials, and he
asked the President about the subject. He is not totally
ignorant of the subject. It is true if he said he ignorant of it
in terms of material provided to him officially. I'm just a guy
(referring to his briefing to Lake) I'm lower than dog poop. I'm
just a guy - a civilian. So if he's saying he did not deal with
or get officially- that's true. They did receive materials from
us. I do have the man on my team who gave it to him and briefed
him."

Vice-President Al Gore, senior people in Al Gore's office, his
Chief of Staff, and many of his personal friends" were also
given UFO briefings by Dr. Greer's Starlight team. Very little
has been released about Gore and his staff's reaction, or
subsequent action Gore gave to help declassify the UFO subject.
Stories have circulate that Gore's people, particularly his
person on the environment was very interested, and did discuss
the UFO topic further with Greer outside of the briefings given.

Dr. Greer gave the most significant briefing to a member of the
Clinton administration in December 1993. It was a three-hour
briefing given to President Clinton's Director of Central
Intelligence James Woolsey. Dr. Greer described his briefing of
Woolsey as a presentation of "the scientific data, along with a
well conceived assessment, and set of recommendations."

Greer stated that he had been told that Woolsey "had an interest
in the subject and felt that the subject was valid, that he had
not been able to find out anything through channels, even though
he was the head of the CIA, the NSA, the NRO, and other civilian
intelligence agencies."

Woolsey was very moved by the evidence Greer presented and
offered to do what he could to come up with answers. As
supported by a recently declassified document from the CIA,
Woolsey did appear (as claimed by Greer) to try to track down
some UFO cases given to him to check. These efforts were
unsuccessful. He found himself was faced with the "empty file
syndrome" - no evidence pro or con.

His wife Sue Woolsey, Chief Operating Officer for the National
Academy of Sciences, was also present for the Greer briefing.
She shared an interest in the phenomena, as she and her husband
had been involved in a daylight sighting during the late sixties
in New Hampshire. Her interest in Greer's work also appeared to
continue after the briefing, and even after her husband was
replaced as DCI. She was reportedly in attendance for the
special UFO briefings Dr. Greer held for government and
congressional members in Washington, in April 1997.

The internal UFO inquiries made at the CIA by James Woolsey
following the Greer briefing began what became a new whitewash
CIA study on the agency's involvement in the UFO phenomena over
the years 1947-1990. It was titled "CIA's Role in the Study of
UFOs, 1947-1990." CIA historian Gerald K. Haines wrote it. In
the introduction to the paper Haines wrote of James Woolsey's
UFO involvement,

"In late 1993, after being pressured by Ufologists for the
release of additional CIA information on UFOs, R. James Woolsey
ordered another review of all Agency files on UFOs."

Richard Farley, a former member of the Rockefeller UFO
Disclosure Initiative team, made his own effort to provide UFO
briefings to yet other members of the Clinton White House. He
dealt for over a year with Assistant to the President and Deputy
Chief of Staff, (later Ambassador to Britain) Phil Lader. Farley
reported that he sent "several packages" of UFO material to
Lader. Farley has never explained why he chose Lader, but Lader
was responsible for White House Operations and staff, including
the coordination of the overall policy development process.

The released Clinton OSTP papers revealed that Lader appeared to
be interested in the UFO material Farley was sending. For
example, in response to the first packet of Rockefeller White
House Initiative documents sent by Farley in February 1994,
Lader sent Farley a thank-you letter. In the margin of the
letter Lader had added a hand-written comment "Remarkable
Thoughts."

Farley told this author that his UFO briefing effort actually
made it as high as Clinton's Chief of Staff Mack McLarty. Farley
believed that McLarty had discussed the material with President
Clinton, but doubted that he had given the President anything
more than what Farley called "retail UFOlogy."

Those in the office of the Chief of Staff to the President after
McLarty left appeared to carry on the interest in UFOs. They
also showed that it was okay to be interested in UFOs in the
Clinton White House. Clinton Deputy Chief of Staff John Podesta
was one case in point. He was known among White House reporters
as the unofficial leader of the X-files club in the West Wing of
the White House.

Podesta expressed his obsession with X-files when he told "U.S.
News" "when the show about aliens comes on I just get glued to
the tube and try to figure out which government agencies to call
to determine if the show's story is real or not." "U.S. News"
reported further that Podesta had even e?mailed one of the shows
characters, FBI agent Dana Scully."

The "Christian Science Monitor" newspaper also wrote about the
Clinton's Deputy Chief of Staff and his extraordinary interest
in the X-files.

"Some White House staffers decorate coffee tables with
presidential trinkets. Not John Podesta. While serving as deputy
chief of staff to President Clinton, the table in his office was
covered with "X?Files" paraphernalia. Books, fan magazines, and
photos of special agents Mulder and Scully formed the little
shrine he built to the popular science fiction TV series."

Even as this paper was being written and edited, another
revelation was made about another Clinton staffer who appeared
to have as part of his job description, "find out about UFOs."
That Clinton cabinet member was Secretary of Defense William
Cohen. Given Cohen's background, it is not surprising that he
would take up a UFO cause for the Clinton White House. After all
Cohen was one of the Senators who stepped in and helped rescue
the 20 million dollar U.S. Army's psychic intelligence-gathering
program known as Project Stargate, after Reagan national
Security advisor Frank Carlucci "dispatched the inspector
general to investigate the Stargate Project at Fort Meade."

It has not been announced if the UFO directive for Cohen's
involvement came directly from President Clinton, but Dr. Steven
Greer has announced that after discussions with "a very famous
astronaut" that Cohen had called this astronaut in to help with
a UFO investigation he had begun.

"This particular astronaut had during his career been in
possession of a very specific piece of incontrovertible piece of
evide

[arrived truncated --ebk]






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 10

             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Easton

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 03:14:05 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 08:41:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Easton


Regarding:

 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:23:23 EDT
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001

Brad highlighted Pope's 'Weird World' claims:

"I'm pleased though surprised that some Defence Intelligence
Staff papers have been released, because although I worked with
the DIS frequently in the course of my official research and
investigation into the UFO phenomenon, this was a part of my MOD
work that I could never previously have discussed with the media
or the public".


Brad,

These supposedly 'suppressed' comments seem to have no relevance
to the Ministry of Defence's 'Rendlesham' file.

As you should know if reading previous related material, it's
evident that Pope was entirely oblivious of any MoD
investigations.

This is not a situation where Pope had _ever_ noted there was
some case material he couldn't discuss, it's one where he
explained on a number of occasions, and in detail, that the
Ministry had not followed up Halt's memo, so far as he was
aware. Indeed, Pope lamented the fact, as confirmed to 'UFO
Magazine' in 1996:

Nick Pope: ...on each joint USAF/RAF base there is an RAF
Commander; but it's really only a nominal title; these
facilities are basically USAF bases. I believe for legal reasons
they must have an RAF Commander who acts as the conduit between
the USAF and the Ministry of Defence. My best assessment of what
happened next is - absolutely nothing! The report was written on
the 13th January and when it arrived at Whitehall, whoever was
doing the job didn't have the faintest idea what to do with it,
probably took one look at it and said, what am I supposed to do?
I am afraid to say it simply ended up in a file. [END]

Asked how he would have responded, Pope replied:

"I would have immediately impounded the radar tapes and had them
sent to me, and immediately called RAF defence experts in, we
would have sat down, looked at the tapes and analysed the
content to see if they showed structured craft or spurious
returns. Interview statements would have followed...".

The interview continued:

UFO Magazine: But this allegedly did not happen in 1980?

Nick Pope: At the end of the day this did not happen, so far as
I am aware.

[...]

UFO Magazine: Was there a cover-up?

Nick Pope: No. Not in the MoD - I think the MoD's response was
just ineffective.

UFO: That's a very big statement?

Nick Pope: Yes, but if something of that magnitude was reported
and simply placed on file, then what else can you say?

Pope concluded, "The standard line on Rendlesham Forest is that
the incident was looked into, and nothing of defence significance
was uncovered. The challenge, as it where, to the department, is
that we have never seen the analysis".


It's really straightforward - unless of course you believe Pope
intentionally misled everyone to that extent, and completely
unnecessarily?


Have you actually seen all the papers released by the MoD?

Are you familiar with any of them?

If you are, please explain why Pope couldn't mention that the
Ministry had investigated Halt's claims - without any
requirement to discuss 'classified' documents - and instead
engaged on the following dialogue with Dave Clarke and Andy
Roberts, only a few months ago:

Pope: I find Rendlesham bizarre; looking at the Rendlesham
Forest file, it starts obviously with Halt's memo and Don
Moreland's covering note and then frankly there isn't a lot. In
fact, as I recall, I don't think there is anything until the
News of the World and Chuck de Caro's documentary, some papers
from the Public Affairs Office 3rd Air Force about the handling
of this and then it turns into correspondence. Now I suppose
there are two options - who knows, maybe Nick Redfern's right.

Clarke: There must be something missing there then?

Pope: Something missing or missing a trick, but it depends what
you mean. If you look very carefully at what you have been told
about Rendlesham, it says I think nothing more than Colonel
Halt's report was examined carefully at the time by those
officers responsible for looking at the Air Defence of the realm
and the conclusion was that nothing of any defence significance
was involved and as such no further action was taken. Well, that
is I'm sure technically a true statement. Whether it implies
that anyone actually sat down and did any sort of sucking of
teeth, you know, interviewing of witnesses, etc I don't think it
does - I think if that memo arrived to DS8 at the time,
side-copied to two or three specialist divisions and if it had
sat on file with nothing else being done then the statements
made on Rendlesham are still true; it was examined by, because
when it came out of the envelope it would have been read, so it
was examined by, and its almost chicken and egg by virtue of the
fact that they placed it on the file and didn't do any
investigation with a capital I, you could say well, its an
assumption of course, but if you trust people to know their jobs
they must have looked at them, they must have concluded for
whatever reason that there was nothing of any defence
significance. So the statements that you got were not
falsehoods, but I think and you know I have to be careful what I
say here, I think I think they are potentially misleading. I can
see why UFOlogists would feel that they had been misled. I still
think it is a case of a mistake rather than a missing file, I
really don't think that the nettle was grasped. Unless Halt and
Moreland and you know, even in most of the USAF patrols, they
say, and Halt and Moreland certainly say, I wrote my report and
I forwarded it and we heard nothing back, nobody interviewed us,
nobody phoned me up and asked for further details, nobody came
and asked to interview the primary witnesses, this didn't
happen.

Clarke: Are you saying then that the letter and cover-note dated
the 13 January 1981 was the first that the MOD would have heard
about the case?

Pope: Yes. Yes. I think so. Yes.

Clarke: That raises the question then that after such a length of
time had passed - over 2 weeks - how would you have been able to
check out that information?

Pope: Well you probably wouldn't. Moreland was on leave. Halt
briefed Moreland on it orally. Moreland I think told Halt well
do a report, Halt was not going to have done that unless
Moreland told him to do it, therefore Halt was already working
in a situation where it was some days after the event. Now I'm
not sure if Moreland knows if he was on one week's break or two,
it's all in Georgina's book.

Clarke: Would the radar tapes still have been available 2 weeks
later?

Pope: They should have been. Certainly in my time, now that's
difficult, now in 1980 I very much doubt that the system that I
had inherited had been operating.certainly during my tour of
duty radar data from say, places like Portreath and Neatishead
would be downloaded onto standard VHS cassette and would be kept
for about a month, on each day they would take the 30th one and
stick it in the machine, press play and record. So I don't know
the answer to that question, you would have to ask the MOD what
the practice was at that time. However, as you know, certainly
and I've forgotten his name but I have personally spoken to him,
I'm talking about one of the duty officers at Watton, the one
that Georgina interviewed, but I had spoken with him, in fact I
had put him in touch with Georgina, bizarrely he had interviewed
me as a local DJ somewhere in East Anglia, he had interviewed me
for Operation Thunderchild or whatever, and afterwards he said
look, I'll tell you why I'm so interested in all this, I used to
be a radar operator at Watton, and he said there was an incident
- quite a famous one actually - back in 1980, sometime around
Christmas, I was on duty and I got a call from someone at
Bentwaters/Woodbridge who said 'have you got anything on the
screens' and he said I will look, two or three sweeps, and he
said 'bloody hell, yes there is something right over the base'
and he said that after 2 or 3 sweeps it faded out and was gone
and he said, yes there was something and that was about it.

[...]



  Clarke: So you're saying there was no cover-up over Rendlesham?

Pope: I'm aware of no cover-up over Rendlesham. I'm aware of -
and I chose my words carefully again - what I can understand
might be perceived as almost a criminal lack of action... as you
know anything that is perceived as a cover-up I actually think
it is bureaucracy or cock-up or whatever. Bear in mind as well
that the fact that the desk officer [tape break]

Clarke: I don't want to prattle on about Rendlesham for too
long, and there are other important cases, but I want to ask you
do you think there is anything else to emerge?

Pope: Not from the official records in Britain, no. Now whether
there is some 3rd Air Force, USAF, OSI stuff, whatever I don't
know.

[...]

[END]


You do realise that Pope's part-time tenure at the Ministry's
'UFO desk' was over a decade after 'Rendlesham'?

In the statement which you allege was 'suppressed' [even though
Pope's newsletter had previously been sent to all UpDates
subscribers], does Pope state that any 'Defence Intelligence
Staff' papers he had seen were connected to 'Rendlesham'?

Of course not.

It might be the impression he gives, whether intentionally, I
can't say. The irony is I had explained the factual background
so that Pope's comments wouldn't mislead anyone, especially
those who some could surmise were targeted as most gullible and
would 'fall for it'... big time.

I'm not sure how you seemingly missed the thorough
clarifications which were emphasised.

It is, however, surely not too much if we ask that you verify
whether deductions are factually watertight, especially if
already evidenced otherwise, before embarking on a ridiculous,
non-factual, tirade. Especially one that's categorically
libellous.

Dave Clarke writes:

"I look forward to Brad's apology to Easton, and trust it won't
be substituted with yet another knee-jerk polemic against
"sceptics" and "debunkers."

I'm not remotely troubled by pursuing an apology, however, you
do now have to justify the publicised slur.

Can you evidentially do so? If not, then perhaps an apology is
proven as absolutely warranted.


As an aside, one gem of a comment from Nick Pope is contained
within the MoD papers.

In a January 1994 'loose minute' to David Davies at DPO(RAF),
concerning "Central TV's request for information on the UFO
sighting in Rendlesham Forest in December 1980", Pope advised:

"I believe that it will be in our interests to be as helpful as
we can, and to try and reflect the good relationship that we now
have with many of the more serious UFO groups and researchers.
There are still a few within the field who believe that the MOD
is involved in a cover-up, and I think the more helpful and open
we are, the less likely it is that this view will get an
airing".


"There are still a few within the field who believe that the MOD
is involved in a cover-up..."?

Kudos to Nick Pope for an informed debunking of _that_ nonsense!


Best wishes,

James Easton

E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 10

                  Re: World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 22:58:56 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 08:45:45 -0400
Subject: Re: World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris


 >Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 14:07:05 -0400
 >To: "02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris Recently?

 >From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

<snip>

 >World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris Recently?

 >Stephen Greer on a radio show on Thursday night of last week -
 >08/30/01 - claimed that he's been contacted by a world-famous
 >astronaut whose name he cannot disclose, for now.

 >http://www.artbell.com/topics0801.html

 >It seems that the world-famous astronaut has sworn that he was
 >directly involved with an alien-crash incident after which he,
 >the world-famous astronaut, was in posession of incontrovertible
 >physical evidence of the existance of extraterrestrials.

Likely he doesn't actually have "possession" now because
somebody probably came/showed up at his door/threatened his
family or whatever and he now doesn't have it because "they"
picked it up.

 >The world-famous astronaut maintains that the evidence was
 >taken from him by an un-named intelligence agency. He then went

OK, just as I had thought.

 >straight to William Cohen, Secretary of Defence under Clinton,
 >who tried to retrieve the evidence. Cohen was abruptly refused
 >all access.

One would presume that if somebody "actually" talked to Cohen,
he would have an entirely different story to tell that would not
support the above story. Then we would hear how "they" silenced
Cohen, blah blah.

 >Greer said that he is going to become even more pro-active and
 >blow the cover of these "illegal" operations very soon, with the
 >help of this well-recognized astronaut, who is committed to
 >getting the information out.

Now that Edgar Mitchell no longer "supports" Greer, we
apparently have a new astronaut.

 >Greer also said that he recieved word from one of his witnesses,
 >'AH' of Boeing, that a scientist at JPL recently confessed to
 >him that all the artifacts on Mars are real and that JPL has
 >been covering up an alien civilization presently thriving on the
 >planet.

Sounds like the same type of people who were whispering all
sorts of tales and storys in various UFO radio show guests ears
about how ET's were going to land on a mountain top in Arizona
last December, or how the mass ET landing was going to take
place in the desert south west on April 24th of 1997 etc etc.
Note none of which happened, but all the so called "insider, top
drawer, never told a lie in their life, absolutly reliable
sources" have now found a new ear to whisper in, i.e. Greer, and
naturally the story gets retold on Art Bell or whom ever Greer
is guesting on.

Ah, I can't wait for the latest in so called insider pearls and
revelations.... :)


Cheers,

Robert










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                       Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 21:42:57 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 08:51:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - McCoy


 >Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 11:27:16 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ

 >>From: Mike Haggard <mikeh@cybertrails.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:19:57 -0700

 >>>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>>Date: 2 Sep 2001 12:35:30 -0700
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Lara Johnstone FAQ

 >>>What am I consuming?

 >>>I am drinking only liquids -- water with added oxygen (Cell
 >>>Food), fresh fruit and vegetable juices (mixed, with added
 >>>spirulina and protein powder)and herbal teas. I also once or
 >>>twice a week, have some wheatgrass juice. I also occassionaly
 >>>have soup drained of solids through a tea-strainer.


Hello, all Mike and John.

 >Hiya Mike,

 >You asked:

 >>How is this a hunger strike?

 >The short answer is; It's not.

 >>When Gandhi went on hunger strikes for peace he would _stop_
 >>eating. No water, no food, no tea, no grass... Medically N.P.O.
 >>He would suddenly be dreadfully ill and people took notice. They
 >>had a visual fright in his near death. I heard Lara on the radio
 >>last weekend and she sounded as perky as Kati Courik.

 >Yes, she does. I was impressed at how great she sounded after
 >weeks of (alleged) fasting. Errol commented during a live
 >broadcast of SDI that she sounded better now than in previous
 >weeks. I think we were all surprised. But then we all thought
 >that she was "fasting" (in the traditional sense that you site
 >above) and not on a kind of semi-restricted 'juice diet.'

Yes, I agree in this case, "The Juiceman Cometh".

 >>The human body can exist healthy without _any_ solid food intake
 >>for 35 days as long as you have water. Then it can go on for
 >>much long, while damaging the body, for a time depending on the
 >>health of the individual. I know, I have fasted for various
 >>reason (non political) in this manner many times.

 >Me too Mike. It's why I was so concerned for her well-being
 >initially. That is; until I heard what the "fast" consisted of.
 >The lady is 5'10" and she started out at a 'zaftig' 195 lbs.
 >Sounds like she can stand to drop a few lbs. (or thirty) anyway.
 >;)

So have I enforced even, when I had my jaw wired due to an
accident. Also for other reasons (also non-political).

 >>This description from the FAQ tells of a person on a diet, not a
 >>fast or a strike. Sure she will lose weight and mass on this
 >>diet, but she will not die. Chances are she could live many long
 >>years on this very diet. So where is the threat to the leaders?

 >Ipso facto, there is none. I stopped "worrying" about her (and
 >posting about it) the second I finished reading about the 'diet'
 >she is on.

 >>Gandhi used the hunger strike as a loaded gun and pointed it at
 >>the power that be and said, "My death on your heads." This
 >>little ploy is more like a pumped-up air gun with Lara saying,
 >>"My palate-boredom and loose-fit clothing on your heads!" They
 >>will not respond to this because they are not threatened.

More like Eddie Murphy in the Redneck Bar with Nolte in '48
Hours'. Than Ghandi, who was a patriot in the truest sense.
Willing to die for his country. So others might live free of
tyranny. At least he thought that, and lived it. (I wonder,
however how it would have been if the Japanese had taken India
from the British, how he, Nehru and the others would have
treated. There would have been no Mountbatten, for instance.)

 >More like a "plumped-up" Lara attempting to bludgeon the
 >President of the US into submission by threatening she will
 >undergo a healthy weight loss. <LOL>And yes, I too was thinking
 >in terms of a "Ghandi" style political fast. It's what most of
 >us would think of when we hear the term 'fast' used in
 >conjunction with an act that is 'political' in nature. Turns out
 >we had nothing 'real' to be concerned about. Pisses me off.
 >Makes me feel like I was fooled 'once again' just for taking
 >somebody at their word.

Same here, I thought I just was caring about someone's health
having actually known someone who went on a hungerstrike and
misscarried because of it.

 >>But they would not be threatened by a real strike in this issue
 >>either... but a _real_ strike would at least get the media
 >>attention that is currently lacking.

I had that same question - where is the major media in all this?
Is it because this is a non-event, a dog and pony show? Sorry it
is not real, just like any thing that surrounds the Circus of
Greer; not quite what it seems.

 >A "real" strike would most likely have been over by now. She
 >would have been hospitalized at some point and _force fed_ if
 >necessary in order to sustain her life. With the 'diet' that
 >she's on, she'll probably live long enough to dance on all of
 >_our_ graves!

 >In Spanish there is a saying that goes:

 >"El pero que ladra, no muerde."

 >It translates: "Dogs that bark, don't bite."

 >As far as I'm concerned this was all just a lot of 'talk'
 >(barking) with no real 'bite.' No real 'threat' to anyone. Lara
 >or President Bush. What a bring down. It's made me feel like a
 >jerk for even caring.

Well, John, you are not the only one, and I had to bite the
inside of my cheek a couple of times, because of the political
crap that was layered on. Like frosting on a cowpie. That even
has infected the List, I do not give a darn if someone is an
anarchist as long as he/she doesn't blow up my little SUV (that
I do need for my work) just to make a statement. Also I don't
care if someone is a card carrying member of The Christian
Coalition as long as he/she doesn't put a camera in my bedroom
(not that they would see any thing lately - the hours I have
been putting in). But, there is enough politics in the UFO world
without another layer of fresh B.S. that has been added through
this "hunger strike" business.

 >>The Haggard,

 >I'm feeling "haggard" myself Mike. After you've seen your
 >umpteenth "dog & pony" show, the novelty (and my patience)
 >starts to wear a bit thin.

 >>Winslow, AZ

 >Super-funky New York.  ;)

 >Regards,

 >John Velez, Love All, trust _few_... ;)

John, you haven't lived life until you've been; "Standing on the
corner in Winslow Arizona".

GT McCoy

"In God We Trust all others pay cash" -Jean Shepard.








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                       PRA - Night Vision Lab - Corso?

From: John Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 07:29:36 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:14:36 -0400
Subject: PRA - Night Vision Lab - Corso?


Hi EBK & List,

One from our aeronautics mail bag.

At our last meeting (PRA) we noted that - The Sikorsky CYPHER II
Unmanned Air Vehicle (UAV) made its first tethered flight on
June 15, now this is not overly-important to most .....

NOW - unless your a Col. Philip Corso follower,

"Hush Now and Close Your Eyes"

However, for some reason Sikorsky has listed (See below).

[1]. The Army Night Vision Lab's Air Systems Division

and

[2]. (CORSO French) Shrouded Rotor technology.

Now this is interesting - First time information for the public
eyes.


REF TAKEN FROM THE REPORT:

                        ***

"The aircraft is being built for the U.S. Army Night Vision Labs
in Fort Belvoir, Va."

  Ref: Para 2, line 1.

                        ***

"Gary F. Meyering, Small Unmanned Air Vehicle Project Leader at
the Night Vision Lab's Air Systems Division. "This was a
considerable milestone ... "

  Ref: Para 2, line 5.

                        ***

"The CYPHER II incorporates shrouded rotor technology"

  Ref: Para 5, line 1.

                        ***

"Sikorsky Aircraft Corporation, based in Stratford, Conn., is a
world leader in helicopter design ..."


Ref: Para 8, line 1.

                        ***

SIKORSKY NEWS PAGE:

"Sikorsky CYPHER II UAV Conducts First Flight"
STRATFORD, Conn., July 5, 2001

http://www.sikorsky.com/news/20010705b.html

CYPHER IMAGE:

http://www.sikorsky.com/news/images/Cypher2_tether.jpg

                        ***

As they say "Where's the Beef"?  - Well, that's up to you?

========================================================

STRATFORD, Conn., July 5, 2001 - The Sikorsky CYPHER II Unmanned
Air Vehicle (UAV) reached a major milestone here on June 15 with
its first tethered flight. This marked the first time the
experimental aircraft has taken to the air. CYPHER II has since
maintained a rigorous, almost daily test flight schedule.

The aircraft is being built for the U.S. Army Night Vision Labs
in Fort Belvoir, Va., and will be used for testing small sensors
next year. "Sikorsky has performed admirably to achieve first
tethered flight on the CYPHER II UAV despite the significant
technical challenges typically faced with developmental
aircraft," said Gary F. Meyering, Small Unmanned Air Vehicle
Project Leader at the Night Vision Lab’s Air Systems Division.
"This was a considerable milestone and we would like to thank
the entire CYPHER II team for its selfless hard work and
dedication."

Tethered flight allows the CYPHER II team to limit the flight
envelope of the unmanned vehicle. The next milestone will be a
free flight scheduled by the end of summer at Sikorsky's
Development Flight Center in West Palm Beach, Fla.

"The Army looks forward to the capabilities this unique new
platform will bring to Future Combat System (FCS) development,
where Vertical Take-off and Landing air vehicles will provide
the ground commander with an organic Reconnaissance Surveillance
and Target Acquisition capability and improved situational
awareness," Meyering said.

The CYPHER II incorporates shrouded rotor technology developed
on the CYPHER Technology Demonstrator (TD) aircraft. The
addition of wings and a pusher propeller provides high speed
capability. The shrouded rotor is safer than exposed rotor
systems typically used on rotary-wing UAVs because it minimizes
the hazard of exposed high speed rotor blades to ground
personnel. The aircraft has a 10-foot wing span, weighs about
250 pounds at mission weight and is capable of 135 mile per hour
forward flight speed.

The CYPHER II with its unique removable wing design can hover
like a helicopter or be flown as a fixed wing aircraft. The air
vehicle incorporates cutting-edge technology that makes it
ideally suited for urban surveillance, communications relay,
precise payload delivery, and operations in crowded terrain.

As a fixed wing aircraft, the CYPHER II UAV has a maximum range
of more than 100 nautical miles. As a rotary wing aircraft, the
CYPHER II UAV can operate in confined areas and support urban
operations.

Sikorsky Aircraft Corporation, based in Stratford, Conn., is a
world leader in helicopter design, manufacturing and service.
Sikorsky is a subsidiary of United Technologies Corporation
(NYSE:UTX), of Hartford, Conn., which provides a broad range of
high-technology products and support services to the aerospace
and building systems industries.

For more information, contact Bill Tuttle at (203)386-3829 or Ed
Steadham at (203)386-6086.

-30-

Regards to all,


John Auchettl
PRA - Director



PRA WEB:
http://members.aol.com/praufo/PRA1/Pra1.htm



Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170
Australian & Asia UFO
1961-2001 - 40 YEARS OF RESEARCH SERVICE

========================================================








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             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke

From: David Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 14:26:10 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:32:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke


Greetings list,

Those who have been following the ongoing debate over whether
Nick Pope did or *did not* see the Defence Intelligence files
relating to the Rendlesham Forest incident will be interested to
read the following, by courtesy of Jenny Randles.

Jenny interviewed Nick Pope on video tape in December 1995
prior to the publication of his first book when she was
researching a BBC TV documentary on UFOs.

She asked specific questions relating to Rendlesham and I now
reproduce her transcript of that interview. I refer readers
specifically to paragraph 7 of the transcript where Nick states
unequivocably: "I've not seen the evaluation work that went on
the Rendlesham Forest case. There are some papers that I have
not seen."


Transcript Begins:

I asked him about DSTI and DI 55 - the 'other departments where
the reports went to' - as I put it.  'Can you comment on whether
the reports actually go to these departments and what they do
with them?'

(I already knew because Ralph Noyes had happily told me this and
what the initials stood for - but I didnt let on to Nick, of
course!)

He said: 'I cant actually tell you what (the initials) stand
for, simply because thats not what we do. But what I can tell
you is that basically those departments - theres nothing
sinister or spooky about them - its simply people casting an
expert eye over the data and helping us in Sec AS with the
actual business of investigation. It really is a case of two or
three heads being better than one.'

So I asked why MoD reports are just scraps of paper with no
evidence for any evaluation. 'Surely some evaluation is done?
This work done by the other departments. Do you see that
evaluation?'

He said: 'Very often the only evaluation that is done is a quick
glance to see if there is any threat. Now this is a grey area.
But I think in the 95% of cases where there is a reasonable
explanation you wouldnt necessarily expect to see any written
material  - someone would simply look at it and say 'thats
obviously an airship'.'

So I pointed out that with a case like Rendlesham 'surely some
kind of evaluation work has to be done? Many possibilities
arise. It could be a terrorist attack for instance.'

He said: 'I think the Rendlesham Forest case is a case apart and
is very much the prestige case of British UFOlogy. Now
unfortunately I've not seen the evaluation work that went on the
Rendlesham Forest case. There are some papers that I have not
seen.'

'Do you mean that these are somewhere else?' I asked

'No, what I mean is that the Rendlesham Forest file that I have
seen starts from the News of the World article - which was
obviously some time after the event. And although there is
reference made to evaluation being carried out at the time.
Thats the material that I've not seen.'

'So where is it then?'

'The problem is that when DS 8 evolved into Sec AS in l985 all
the files were closed down and material was chopped and changed
and I'm afraid thats the way governments tend to work sometime.
And its an extremely inexact science. So the answer to the
question is - I hope that its somewhere in the system in the
contemporary file for that year rather than the specific
Rendlesham Forest case file that I had which was started when
the public reaction to the event started.'

Transcript Ends:


As Jenny says:

I think you will find Nick's l995 comments on the Rendlesham
Forest file interesting and very specific as to what he
did/did not see during his then just concluded tenure at the MoD
Air Staff office. They seem pretty conclusive and he put them on
film so he has to stand by them.


All best wishes

Dave Clarke










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               Re: Debunkers Take Root In Hollywood - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 10 Sep 2001 07:02:22 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:38:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Debunkers Take Root In Hollywood - Hamilton


On Mon, 10 September 2001, UFO UpDates - Toronto wrote:


 >Source: dailynews.com

 >http://www.dailynews.com/news/articles/0901/08/new16.asp

 >Debunkers Take Root In Hollywood

 >By Robert Jablon
 >Staff Writer

 >With the motto 'The Bunk Stops Here',' an international skeptics'
 >group said Friday it will open a Hollywood media center to
 >promote its views on everything from UFOs to speaking with the
 >dead.

<snip>


Knowing Hollywood Blvd these skeptibunkers will have a great
time as some of the street riff-raff that inhabits that corner
of the universe wanders into their office with drug-soaked minds
and gives them the Old California "Say man, why don't you guys
smoke some of this and you'll see spirits coming out of the
walls". Ha ha. What a great place for the skeptics.

Bill H








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                    Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 10 Sep 2001 07:07:57 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:46:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Hamilton


 >From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 08:14:17 EDT
 >Subject: Nazi UFOs And All That
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Dear All,

 >Nice to be back.

 >Jane's Defence Weekly's very own Aerospace expert Nick Cook has
 >just had his 'The Hunt For Zero Point' published by Century in
 >the UK. Several people have e-mailed me to congratulate me on
 >having published the bulk of material in 'UFO Revelation' over
 >two years ago. In fact, Cook didn't use many of the documents
 >that I did, but he concentrated much more on "anti-gravity"
 >technologies. Nevertheless, Cook has made some very important
 >new discoveries and, with Bill Rose's continued efforts and
 >those of Canadian Aerospace historian Bill Zuk, we now have an
 >emerging and improved picture of Nazi and man-made flying disc
 >technologies.

<snip>

Yes, Nazi saucers puts a respectable spin on reverse engineering
and accounting for all those sightings over the years of
saucers, mother ships, alien entities, and the ancient sightings
due to German time travel experiments.

No respectability for reverse-engineering attempts from a
Roswell ET spaceship, but now we can go foreward on a new
footing. Just secret aircraft, thats all!


Bill H









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               Re: "US Has Heavily Researched Anti-Gravity" -

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 10 Sep 2001 07:15:35 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:52:13 -0400
Subject: Re: "US Has Heavily Researched Anti-Gravity" -


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 16:05:27 EDT
 >Subject: Re: "US Has Heavily Researched Anti-Gravity"
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 05:25:53 -0400
 >>From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>,
 >>Subject: "US Has Heavily Researched Anti-Gravity"

 >>This was sent to me by a friend and I thought it would be of
 >>interest here. Any comments?

 >>Source: Yahoo!News

 >>http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010907/sc/arms_gravity_dc_1.html

 >>Friday September 7 12:15 PM ET

 >>US Has Heavily Researched Anti-Gravity, Book Says

 >>By Bradley Perrett

 >>LONDON (Reuters) - The U.S. military may have conducted serious
 >>research into anti-gravity based on Nazi studies, a top defense
 >>journalist suggests in a new book.

<snip>

 >Good piece. Ed Fouche wrote a fine novel not terribly long ago,
 >a book which title I've forgotten. It postulated that the United
 >States had the technology to develop and maintain a technology
 >which helped explain many of the sightings of UFO's which we've
 >seen in the skies of this planet.

 >This opinion never made any sense to me. If this nation or any
 >other, has the technology which allows the kind of flight
 >characteristics many of us have obeserved, then too many men and
 >women have died needlessly in wars large and small. And if this
 >is so, that we have such technology and failed to use it when it
 >was necessary, then it makes Hiroshima and Nagasaki look benign
 >by comparison. Meaning, we've multiplied our mistakes by
 >unimaginable mutations. If such were to become known, it could
 >literally destroy government as we know it.

 >Hmmmm..... what a damned good idea.

Jim, Jim, you have no respect for the "under-handedness of the
cabal", as Dr. Boylan puts it.

You need more Gripple.

The Advanced Technology aircraft are only for the elite to
escape to Mars when the Earth is destroyed by the numerous
catastrophes we have been given dire warnings about... like
undetected earth-colliding asteroids, etc... why use
electrogravitic craft to wage war?

It will all be over soon.

Be patient. Commiserate and drink your daily gripple and you
will be happy.


Bill H








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                   Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Wachenschwanz

From: David Wachenschwanz <ploot@atomiccafe.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:14:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:57:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Wachenschwanz


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 22:52:37 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 14:15:30 -0500
 >>From: David Wachenschwanz <ploot@atomiccafe.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

<snip>

 >Dear All, Mr. Wachenschwanz and Errol,

 >First, I apologize most profoundly. I forgot that I was dealing
 >with erudition of the third kind, and used to pluperfect
 >positive of the past present tense. "Write" is, as is my want,
 >used as a satirical version of "right." Which is not what you
 >are, if indeed you are telling this list that the UFO and
 >abduction phenom is "nonesense." Now that's just my pair of
 >dimes ... paradigm ... so sorry.

 >That is "what the hell my point" is. Now, yet again, in simple
 >script, when you wrote that the "prez" vacationed in Texas, just
 >what the hell does that have to do with Lara, her fast, the
 >abduction phenom or the price of bananas in Paducah?

 >Last, when you wrote that the "prez" was not required to make
 >sense out of nonesense, what the hell was the nonsense? The
 >abduction phenom?

 >As for the point, there were three. One and two above and three
 >on one of our heads. Your response will determine which one of
 >us wears the dunce cap.

 >Now, please go sit in the corner. You are guilty of not
 >comprehending satire when you read it and not being clear about
 >what is and what isn't nonsense. And darn it I really _hate_ it
 >when that happens.


How am I supposed to know that you are employing your "satirical
signature" or that you're simply not a very bright person? On
the world wide web, I see a lot of misuse of words: write/right,
their/there, to/too, etc. Your reputation does not proceed you,
to me you are an unknown.

On UFOs, I believe that a lot of very credible witnesses have
seen unusual things in the night sky as well as in broad
daylight. Nocturnal lights and daylight discs, as well as CEs I
and II are very interesting reading, in my opinion. However when
we get down to the CE IIIs and these so-called "abduction"
cases, then I have to start backing the truck up. I've been
following the UFO story since 1962. However with every advancing
year the stories seem to get more twisted and perverted. I
suspect this happens to keep those books selling!

Certainly the abduction "phenomenon" isn't nonsense, but it sure
smells of mental illness. And NO illness is nonsense, and should
be treated by professional medical personnel, not a painter
turned UFO investigator.

The whole idea of Lara's protest is noble, but also quite
juvenal. But considering the posted age of the young lady has
her at 17, that's not surprising. She's young and wants to
change the world. Didn't we all? I suspect she will soon learn
that her ideals dwell only within her mind's realm.

Vacation in Texas Vs. Disclosing the "truth"? I don't think this
requires an explanation to those with at least a GED, but lets
proceed:

To the Prez, it could be that vacation in Texas is much more
important, personally, than Lara's impulsive whim to get to the
truth about "UFOs." At least that's my take on it, and I can't
say that I blame him one bit.










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   Sep > Sep 10

                  Re: World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:37:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 11:11:57 -0400
Subject: Re: World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris


 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris Recently?
 >Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 16:01:03 -0400

 >>From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>Thanks to Harry Tokarz, Larry Fenwick and Nick Balaskas for
 >>bringing this to our attention.....

 >>ebk

 >>_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

 >>World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris Recently?

 >>Stephen Greer on a radio show on Thursday night of last week -
 >>08/30/01 - claimed that he's been contacted by a world-famous
 >>astronaut whose name he cannot disclose, for now.

 >>http://www.artbell.com/topics0801.html

<snip>

Hiya Jan, hi All,

Jan writes:

 >Harry, Larry and Nick, you guys, should hang your heads in shame
 >for helping to spread this kind of thing.

Amen! It's bad enough that rumor mongers like Bell are out there
spreading manure faster and thicker than the most modern farm
machinery, but when ufologists bring their shovels out of the
garage and join in to help... "stop the world, I want to get
off!"

 >Get something more than just, "Greer said." I think this indicate
 >that Greer has no traction and is trying to hype up the situation
 >with more sensationalism. What a joke.

I think a lot of us learned long ago to 'shelve' any reports that
come in which include 'clues' as to their true nature (in the
language used to make the report) such as:

1. "Unnamed sources"

2. "Cannot reveal the identity"

3. "Unspecified government agency" etc., etc., etc.

What I 'think' is happening is; with the growth of interest in
UFOs, the number of participants in UFO related venues has
ballooned so rapidly that 'ufology' now reflects the values and
'conditions' of the larger society (statistically) more
accurately now, than in the past.

There's an old Gnostic axiom that goes, "As above, so below, as
below, so above." The larger society has dumbed-down over the
years and ufology reflects it. What the 'larger society' is
willing to accept as News or Journalism has become more and more
tabloid in nature. The _same_ thing has happened in ufology. No
more asking hard questions or applying critical-thinking to
anything. Just applaud and cheer every GD dog & pony show that
parades down the street or have your ear (or butt) chewed-off
for not being an unquestioning, blind, go along, get along
Believer.

This List is a prime example. When the participants consisted
solely of individuals with some credentials and a checkable
track record for having a _direct_ connection to the research,
the level of the discussion and the content of the dialog was on
a much higher level (for the most part) than it is today.
Reports such as this one by Bell/Greer would have been
immediately recognized for what it is and not too much energy,
or time, would have been wasted on it. As you told Mr.
Mortellaro in another thread, the people who speak out (on both
sides of the fence) _against_ tabloid sensationalism, posers,
opportunists, charlatans, and liars are now the ones who are
being vilified.

And they are being vilified, of all things, by a core of
un-critical True Believers - people that jump on each and every
bandwagon that rolls into town without the slightest nod toward
critical thinking or thoughtful consideration. People who
ride/surf the waves of hype and sensationalism because it's one
of the few things that makes them feel alive. Folks who are
only here on UFO UpDates getting their own personal needs met -
attention, recognition, acceptance etc.

It may be an expression of being human, but it's sad
nonetheless. Feeding or assuaging the 'personal needs' of others
is not why I joined, or why I participate on this List. I'm sure
the same goes for you and many others. It's a trade-off Jan.

When EBK made the List open to the general public, two things
happened: The diversity of the people and points of view on the
List skyrocketed - a good thing. But, the price we paid for it
was a _dramatically_ increased level of 'noise' among the
posts/posters - not a good thing.

I've been happy with it and able to live with it because I
think the trade-off - in terms of having gained a broader
range of diversity - is worth the price. Although that gain
doesn't take away from how much of a pain-in-the-ass it is to
repeatedly have to explain the obvious to a noisy few, it's a
small price to have to pay for some of the truly wonderful
people we've picked up along with the noise-makers/static
contributors.'

 >Bull Butter!

Of course it is Jan. Only now, we are put into the awkward
position of having to debate every expression of critical
thought with people who simply don't get it, to begin with.
Anybody who questions anything, or anybody - Lara or Greer for
example - or tries to apply a little old-fashioned critical
thought to any 'particular' has now become a de-facto, black hat
wearing, bad guy.

Someone asked me privately why I am so friendly with Bob Young
on - and off - the List. "After all, he's a hard core skeptic and
you are an abductee." Because this individual cannot see beyond
labels he could not understand when I answered him; "I like
Bob because right or wrong, he _questions_ everything." It's
that 'you're either fer us, or agin' us mentality that we are
running up against.

The middle of the road seems to be a dangerous piece of real
estate now-a-days. I've got the tire tracks all across my back
to prove it. Ain't life a stomp down, ironic, bitch! <LOL>


Sincerely,

Your fellow 'migraine' sufferer. See you out on the
Range pahdner. :)


John Velez
Grey hair getting UFO buck-a-roo


            A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
            www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                 johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
   "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 10

                                  Re: Irony

From: Errol Bruce <errolbruce@home.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 12:05:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 12:05:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Irony

Read this and let me know if the changes are Otay - otay?

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 11:19:50 -0400
To: ufoupdates@home.com
From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Irony


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Irony
 >Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 18:41:33 -0500


Hi Alfred, hi All,

You wrote:

 >I'm glad I don't gag easily on irony. Those seemingly so
 >concerned with Ms. Johnstone's health and welfare previously are
 >now astonishingly critical that she's not being anywhere near
 >hard enough on herself. Perhaps we should all try for a smidgeon
 >more consistency.

I can't speak for anybody else but my perceived "inconsistency"
coincided with my learning of _what_ Lara's "hunger-strike"
consisted of.

 >Moreover, dismissed as a fat girl with a commie agenda,
 >conveniently losing weight for 15 minutes of fame... is contrary
 >to the reality of a nation functioning as the Rome of the 21st
 >century, a nation much better served by strident criticism than
 >reactionary and uninformed adulation.

Tell me the truth Alfred, (at first) didn't you think that Lara
was engaged in a traditionally defined, political hunger-strike?
I know I did. When I first read of her 'hunger-strike' I
thought, "Oh my God, this poor woman is going to starve herself
to death in order to get Dubya to cop to the realty of UFOs." At
that point, thinking that she was actually starving herself and
knowing what a knothead Dubya is, I figured, "she's a dead
woman." I immediately composed my first post on this thread
expressing a very real concern for her welfare and safety.

Then... three weeks later, I find out that she's "fasting" not
in the traditional (Ghandi style, political hunger-strike) that
I thought she was. That she is in fact on what can only be
called a fairly strict 'diet'.  I felt like I had been fooled
and taken in. It turns out that all my worry and concern was for
naught, about nothing.

_That_ is why I recently expressed the thoughts and feelings
that I have.

 >This woman holds herself proudly while standing for righteous
 >principal. She maintains her position while sustaining
 >withering patronization, ridicule, and insult. She confronts a
 >legitimate problem head-on while others otherwise count points,
 >airily pronounce and blithely pontificate.

Alfred you already know how much I love and respect you. You are
one of the few people who have been actively and energetically
supporting Lara's alleged "fast" that I have any _real_ respect
for.

I can easily accept and support you in your support of her
because I know you, and I _know_ that that support (coming from
you) is honest and sincere. I can only hope that you are able to
see and to respect my take/point of view, and to accept it as
being as honest and sincere in origin as your own. You know me
man. I am not just being a 'hard-ass' with Lara for fun.

My caring about this subject is genuine. It's not just _talk_
with me. I have backed up my words with _deeds_ and _dedicated_
hard work for many years. I'm here because I came to _work_ and
because I _really_ care. The opinions that I post are not phony
BS that I make-up just to see my own words in print. (And you,
more so than most, _know_ the truth of that.)

Support me in my stand as I do you in yours. We know each other's
Hearts and that the positions/stands that we take are taken in
(earnest) honesty and sincerity.

 >That's the alien view.

And a damned fine one it is.  :)

Warmest regards, tu amigo siempre, (in spite of any differences
of opinion,...)


John Velez

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 10

             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:08:13 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 12:10:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni


 >From: Nick Redfern <Skywatcher4u@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 16:27:02 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >I interviewed Nick in 1994 for my first book, A Covert Agenda,
 >and we discussed the case.

 >Nick told me, on audio-tape, that the Rendlesham file that was
 >in his office only contained the Halt memo; the News Of The
 >World newspaper piece from 1983 (and related news clippings);
 >and correspondence with members of the public.

 >He also told me (on tape too) that he had not seen any documents
 >that related in any way to any sort of MoD investigation of the
 >case. Moreover, he went on to say that in his opinion no such
 >papers existed.

 >He also denied (on tape again) that the file he saw contained
 >the covering letter that Sqdn. Leader Moreland sent to the MoD
 >with Halt's memo. The file does contain that memo and Nick's
 >only response now is that he doesn't know why he told me this.

 >Can anyone shed any light on Nick's curious (and to me totally
 >baffling) assertion that the Moreland covering letter wasn't in
 >the file and that he had never seen it?

Hi Nick

As you know, Nick Pope actually told me that Moreland's covering
letter _was_ in the Ministry Of Defence file. See page 295 of my
book 'You Can't Tell The People' where I write:

"However, I can confirm that Nick Pope was aware of Squadron
Leader Moreland's letter being in the MOD files......"

Concerning Nick Pope's previous denial to you, I reported in
detail my interview with Nick concerning this very subject (see
pages 293 to 295 in my book.

Although you claim (in your review of my book) that I did not
exactly address this issue, I assure you I did, and I believe
that my published interview with Nick proves this point.

At the time (I have been known to be pushy) I felt that I may
have put Nick in a difficult position over this matter. Having
already interviewed Moreland, who confirmed that his letter was
sent to DS8, I was convinced that it was in the MOD file.

It is my opinion that the reason Nick did not discuss this with
you, was because of the written details on the bottom of the
letter, concerning other departments including the Defence
Intelligence Staff. In fact, when I did receive a copy of the
letter, these details had been carefully erased. It was only
when I saw the MOD file that I realised the MOD had removed this
interesting information, which of course would have assisted me
in obtaining other documents.

What I don't understand (and I mention this is my book) is why,
in 20 years, nobody thought to make a written request for
Moreland's letter.

One must be fair to Nick Pope, after all, he does still work for
the MOD and is not obliged to offer detailed information on
these matters to members of the public. Considering his
position, I think he has been more than helpful in UFO matters
and it is wrong to target him in this way.

Hope this helps to sort out one your queries. I have seen a
draft copy of Nick's article for the October issue of UFO
Magazine, and I am sure it will answer questions on the other
matters raised in this discussion. It will also educate the
likes of Clarke et al, who claim to know so much about how the
MOD works, when in fact, they haven't a clue.


Best wishes,

Georgina


"You Can't Tell The People".The Definitive Account of the
Rendlesham Forest UFO Mystery by Georgina Bruni. Published by
Sidgwick & Jackson Available in all good bookshops and on-line
at: www.amazon.co.uk Countries outside UK: www.netstoreusa.com








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 10

              Re: ET Politics In Clinton White House - Part 4 -

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 11:40:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 12:12:27 -0400
Subject: Re: ET Politics In Clinton White House - Part 4 -


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 9 Sep 2001 19:01:48 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: ET Politics In Clinton White House - Part 4

 >Extraterrestrial Politics in the Clinton White House: White
 >House Interest - Part 4

<snip>

 >Rockefeller wrote Graham that he would like Graham to co-sign a
 >letter to the President "requesting that he review the present
 >secret classification of government information pertaining to
 >UFOs and related phenomena." Rockefeller told Graham in his
 >letter that he was considering Maurice Strong, Perez de Cuellar,
 >and ex-President Jimmy Carter as other possible signatories to
 >the letter.

Perez de Cuellar?!? Did Larry actually broach the subject with
the former Sec. Gen.? Was Rockefeller able to verify that de
Cuellar has first-hand knowledge about UFOs? Does this verify
aspects of the Napolitano case or is there some other reason de
Cuellar would have an interest in UFOs?

And how do you know Rockefeller discussed this with Rev Graham?


Regards,

Terry









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   Sep > Sep 10

                              Re: Irony - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 11:19:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:15:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Irony - Velez


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Irony
 >Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 18:41:33 -0500


Hi Alfred, hi All,

You wrote:

 >I'm glad I don't gag easily on irony. Those seemingly so
 >concerned with Ms. Johnstone's health and welfare previously are
 >now astonishingly critical that she's not being anywhere near
 >hard enough on herself. Perhaps we should all try for a smidgeon
 >more consistency.

I can't speak for anybody else but my perceived "inconsistency"
coincided with my learning of _what_ Lara's "hunger-strike"
consisted of.

 >Moreover, dismissed as a fat girl with a commie agenda,
 >conveniently losing weight for 15 minutes of fame... is contrary
 >to the reality of a nation functioning as the Rome of the 21st
 >century, a nation much better served by strident criticism than
 >reactionary and uninformed adulation.

Tell me the truth Alfred, (at first) didn't you think that Lara
was engaged in a traditionally defined, political hunger-strike?
I know I did. When I first read of her 'hunger-strike' I
thought, "Oh my God, this poor woman is going to starve herself
to death in order to get Dubya to cop to the realty of UFOs." At
that point, thinking that she was actually starving herself and
knowing what a knothead Dubya is, I figured, "she's a dead
woman." I immediately composed my first post on this thread
expressing a very real concern for her welfare and safety.

Then... three weeks later, I find out that she's "fasting" not
in the traditional (Ghandi style, political hunger-strike) that
I thought she was. That she is in fact on what can only be
called a fairly strict 'diet'.  I felt like I had been fooled
and taken in. It turns out that all my worry and concern was for
naught, about nothing.

_That_ is why I recently expressed the thoughts and feelings
that I have.

 >This woman holds herself proudly while standing for righteous
 >principal. She maintains her position while sustaining
 >withering patronization, ridicule, and insult. She confronts a
 >legitimate problem head-on while others otherwise count points,
 >airily pronounce and blithely pontificate.

Alfred you already know how much I love and respect you. You are
one of the few people who have been actively and energetically
supporting Lara's alleged "fast" that I have any _real_ respect
for.

I can easily accept and support you in your support of her
because I know you, and I _know_ that that support (coming from
you) is honest and sincere. I can only hope that you are able to
see and to respect my take/point of view, and to accept it as
being as honest and sincere in origin as your own. You know me
man. I am not just being a 'hard-ass' with Lara for fun.

My caring about this subject is genuine. It's not just _talk_
with me. I have backed up my words with _deeds_ and _dedicated_
hard work for many years. I'm here because I came to _work_ and
because I _really_ care. The opinions that I post are not phony
BS that I make-up just to see my own words in print. (And you,
more so than most, _know_ the truth of that.)

Support me in my stand as I do you in yours. We know each other's
Hearts and that the positions/stands that we take are taken in
(earnest) honesty and sincerity.

 >That's the alien view.

And a damned fine one it is.  :)

Warmest regards, tu amigo siempre, (in spite of any differences
of opinion,...)


John Velez

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









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   Sep > Sep 10

                     Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 12:38:22 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:20:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Mortellaro


 >From: David Wachenschwanz <ploot@atomiccafe.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:14:46 -0500

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 22:52:37 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 14:15:30 -0500
 >>>From: David Wachenschwanz <ploot@atomiccafe.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 ><snip>

 >>Dear All, Mr. Wachenschwanz and Errol,

 >>First, I apologize most profoundly. I forgot that I was dealing
 >>with erudition of the third kind, and used to pluperfect
 >>positive of the past present tense. "Write" is, as is my want,
 >>used as a satirical version of "right." Which is not what you
 >>are, if indeed you are telling this list that the UFO and
 >>abduction phenom is "nonesense." Now that's just my pair of
 >>dimes ... paradigm ... so sorry.

 >>That is "what the hell my point" is. Now, yet again, in simple
 >>script, when you wrote that the "prez" vacationed in Texas, just
 >>what the hell does that have to do with Lara, her fast, the
 >>abduction phenom or the price of bananas in Paducah?

 >>Last, when you wrote that the "prez" was not required to make
 >>sense out of nonesense, what the hell was the nonsense? The
 >>abduction phenom?

 >>As for the point, there were three. One and two above and three
 >>on one of our heads. Your response will determine which one of
 >>us wears the dunce cap.

 >>Now, please go sit in the corner. You are guilty of not
 >>comprehending satire when you read it and not being clear about
 >>what is and what isn't nonsense. And darn it I really _hate_ it
 >>when that happens.


 >How am I supposed to know that you are employing your "satirical
 >signature" or that you're simply not a very bright person? On
 >the world wide web, I see a lot of misuse of words: write/right,
 >their/there, to/too, etc. Your reputation does not proceed you,
 >to me you are an unknown.

Which appears to be your problem, Sir. To simply jump into the
fray without doing what most have done before doing so, getting
to know the players. Listening to the List first. Who is whom,
eh?

I would go back, were I you, and look the archives over and see
some of the numerous posts made and by whom before making the
statement above. Not too many on this list should be unknowns.

 >On UFOs, I believe that a lot of very credible witnesses have
 >seen unusual things in the night sky as well as in broad
 >daylight. Nocturnal lights and daylight discs, as well as CEs I
 >and II are very interesting reading, in my opinion. However when
 >we get down to the CE IIIs and these so-called "abduction"
 >cases, then I have to start backing the truck up. I've been
 >following the UFO story since 1962. However with every advancing
 >year the stories seem to get more twisted and perverted. I
 >suspect this happens to keep those books selling!

I like the sound of your words - "so-called" abduction cases,
twisted and perverted. Skeptibunkyism of the third kind. And not
worth the opine without your reasoning first. Me? I've memories
which go back before Roswell. You may wish to check the archives
to ferret out drawings I made as a young'en.  In 1945 or so.

 >Certainly the abduction "phenomenon" isn't nonsense, but it sure
 >smells of mental illness. And NO illness is nonsense, and should
 >be treated by professional medical personnel, not a painter
 >turned UFO investigator.

Painter turned UFO investigator. Sir, you are referring to one
of the best in the business. Budd Hopkins. You have no idea who
the hell or what the hell you are talking about. You do not know
the man. You know nothing about him, his dedication, honesty,
integrity, talend in regressive hypnosis, nor have you likely
read any of his books. This makes you iggerant. In the second
degree at least. Not worth further discourse until your own
education is complete. Selective belief systems is like
selective memory on the witness stand. Not worth the time of
day.

 >The whole idea of Lara's protest is noble, but also quite
 >juvenal. But considering the posted age of the young lady has
 >her at 17, that's not surprising. She's young and wants to
 >change the world. Didn't we all? I suspect she will soon learn
 >that her ideals dwell only within her mind's realm.

Noble but "juvenal?" Cheeses. I give up. Young eh? Cheeses.
Again, and again, you demonstrate iggerantz of the facts. Do
your homework first.

 >Vacation in Texas Vs. Disclosing the "truth"? I don't think this
 >requires an explanation to those with at least a GED, but lets
 >proceed:

 >To the Prez, it could be that vacation in Texas is much more
 >important, personally, than Lara's impulsive whim to get to the
 >truth about "UFOs." At least that's my take on it, and I can't
 >say that I blame him one bit.

I do not agree that Lara has indulged in any impulosive whim.
And neither is she imature. This lady has a history of informed
activism. Many appear to have worried over her health. Next came
the determination that she is not on a hunger strike, per se,
but fasting. Now they are coming down on her for not going on a
hunger strike.

Duplicitous nonesense designed to empower themselves and
deflower the lady.  And to me, it smells of ignobility.  That
would be iggerantz with a jigger of nobility. In the days of the
nobility, very few bathed. Use of perfume was rampant. It helped
staunch the odor, the sour effluvium. But you know? It never
works.


I am,

Jimmy









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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 10

               Re: "US Has Heavily Researched Anti-Gravity" -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 12:56:48 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:22:19 -0400
Subject: Re: "US Has Heavily Researched Anti-Gravity" -


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: 10 Sep 2001 07:15:35 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: "US Has Heavily Researched Anti-Gravity"

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 16:05:27 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: "US Has Heavily Researched Anti-Gravity"
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 05:25:53 -0400
 >>>From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>,
 >>>Subject: "US Has Heavily Researched Anti-Gravity"

 >>>This was sent to me by a friend and I thought it would be of
 >>>interest here. Any comments?

 >>>Source: Yahoo!News

 >>>http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010907/sc/arms_gravity_dc_1.html

 >>>Friday September 7 12:15 PM ET

 >>>US Has Heavily Researched Anti-Gravity, Book Says

 >>>By Bradley Perrett

 >>>LONDON (Reuters) - The U.S. military may have conducted serious
 >>>research into anti-gravity based on Nazi studies, a top defense
 >>>journalist suggests in a new book.

 ><snip>

 >>Good piece. Ed Fouche wrote a fine novel not terribly long ago,
 >>a book which title I've forgotten. It postulated that the United
 >>States had the technology to develop and maintain a technology
 >>which helped explain many of the sightings of UFO's which we've
 >>seen in the skies of this planet.

 >>This opinion never made any sense to me. If this nation or any
 >>other, has the technology which allows the kind of flight
 >>characteristics many of us have obeserved, then too many men and
 >>women have died needlessly in wars large and small. And if this
 >>is so, that we have such technology and failed to use it when it
 >>was necessary, then it makes Hiroshima and Nagasaki look benign
 >>by comparison. Meaning, we've multiplied our mistakes by
 >>unimaginable mutations. If such were to become known, it could
 >>literally destroy government as we know it.

 >>Hmmmm..... what a damned good idea.

 >Jim, Jim, you have no respect for the "under-handedness of the
 >cabal", as Dr. Boylan puts it.

 >You need more Gripple.

I always need more Gripple.

 >The Advanced Technology aircraft are only for the elite to
 >escape to Mars when the Earth is destroyed by the numerous
 >catastrophes we have been given dire warnings about... like
 >undetected earth-colliding asteroids, etc... why use
 >electrogravitic craft to wage war?

Oh. Gosh. I had no idea. I mean, I thought them duds .. dudes,
sorry, was goin indaground ... underground I mean. (hic) 'S where
I'm goin.

 >It will all be over soon.

 >Be patient. Commiserate and drink your daily gripple and you
 >will be happy.

Thank you Billy. You know, you really understand me. You may be
the only one who does really, really udnerstands me. Except for
me mommy. (sigh and a Hic)

Uh, are you married?

A loving but inebriantated mail... male ... God I hope you look
like Pia Zadora. Them pouting lips always made me get that funny
feelin.


Morty









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   Sep > Sep 10

                     Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 13:16:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:38:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Mortellaro


 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 14:22:07 -0400

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 23:11:31 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Pat McCartney <ElPatricio@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 14:40:22 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ - Clark
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone FAQ
 >>>>Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:48:35 -0500

 ><snip>

 >>It should surprise me that Lara is taking more of a beating as
 >>the days go by. It don't. Almost as if people lurking are
 >>waiting for another bash before adding their own voices to the
 >>cacophony. This is something for which we should be grateful.
 >>But no. We look for any item which would detract from her
 >>generous efforts. The end result? The sum total of human
 >>knowledge is detracted from.

 >>Jimmy


 >Jimmy,

 >I see if someone disagrees with Lara and so states, they are
 >bashing her.

Read the duplicitous nature of the various posts. "She's on a
hunger strike. I'm genuinely concerned for her welfare." And so
I believe.

Next, "She's merely fasting." Uh oh. Now that she is in less
danger she must not be for real. Bashing her. Bashing them.
Which in your opinion is the correct bash? Forgive me, but I am
not fond of faking it. It makes me nauseous. Then, I gotta
holler New York.

 >Her generous efforts? Perhaps. However, I would say, misguided!
 >What is going to happen if she indeed become gravely ill or dies
 >on this hunger strike? Will there be an outpour for her in the
 >press or would it more likely be--

It's not a hunger strike any more. Remember? She's not likely to
die.

 >"Repeating the common theme of various extreme cults, Heaven's
 >Gate and the Solar Temple, yet another suicide attempt
 >today... a woman claiming that the government had secret
 >evidence of UFO invaders was take to the local hospital in
 >serious condition. She had vowed to fast until President George
 >Bush release the truth about extraterrestrials here among us.

Utter nonesense in that the comparison is unfair an ill
conceived. You know this to be so.

 >"Dr. J. William Knowitallski sociologist at Mountain Majic
 >University, decried yet another suicide action by what he
 >termed, 'fringe believers disassociated for the social
 >mainstream.'

I wore a fringe once. Made me look fat. Fatter, excuse me.

 >"'Some may call it book burning,' Dr. Knowitallski continued,
 >'but I applauded those librarians who removed UFO books for
 >their shelves at the time of the Heaven's Gate suicides. Such
 >literature is dangerous to the mental health of the young
 >generation. This latest incident just proves this point.'"

 >I disagree with Lara Johnstone. Her actions will probably not
 >result in the goal she wishes, but will further discredit
 >ufology. Good intentions do indeed pave the road to Hell!

How may this discredit Ufoology? Let me boil this down to it's
simplest form, in terms of my opinion. We spend way too much
time stating our concern (which may well be legitimate) for her
welfare. And way too much time belittling the Lady's intentions.
Then, when we observe what we should have in the beginning, that
most so-called hunger strikes are fasts, this bellittles the
Lady's intentions even further. Now, she is not doing anything
worthwhile because her life is not in mortal danger.

Duh!

The long and the short of it is that _some_ of us Ufoologists
completely disregard anything which shades our own light. This
is my sincere opinion.

 >There are hundreds of UFO conspiracy theories, if every last
 >scrap of paper, film, photograph or other material under
 >government control were released, there would still be plenty
 >of people dissatisfied. I think some in the government realize
 >this.

Hmmm ... so what?

 >The US government is not forthcoming with UFO information! Even
 >people who think there is nothing to UFOs will agree with this
 >statement. In some, but not all cases the government has, in
 >fact, obfuscated and deliberately been non-responsive to
 >legitimate requests for information. Sparks, Greenwood, Todd,
 >Fawcett, myself, we have all experienced this. Be that as it
 >may, Lara Johnson will probably not have the desired effect, and
 >probably do more to hinder than help.

Just what is the desired effect? Your view may be different than
that of the person being the activist.

 >Turn your statement around, you are bashing everyone who
 >disagrees with Lara Johnstone.

Yes. I am. But only when I perceive that the bashing is
indicative of a superior attitude. An ill-conceived one. Lara is
entitled to her effort. And not entitled to our second guessing
her purposes or what we perceive will be the result. She is not
entitled to our second-guessing her, her intentions or her
sincerity. And most important of all, she _is_ entitled to our
support insofar as we can do so. Even if this means leaving it
alone until he outcome if any.

Then, "when it's all over, just as soon go on my way. Up to some
paaradise, where the trout streams flow and the air is nice. And
take a ride along the trail ... "

But we've already got her in a ten foot cell. Like the
Hurricaine. And like Ford.

I was never any good at cleaving. Soaring is good. Them landings
is hard tho.

Morty








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   Sep > Sep 10

             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke

From: David Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 18:38:01 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:41:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke


 >From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:08:13 +0100

 >>From: Nick Redfern <Skywatcher4u@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 16:27:02 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Hope this helps to sort out one your queries. I have seen a
 >draft copy of Nick's article for the October issue of UFO
 >Magazine, and I am sure it will answer questions on the other
 >matters raised in this discussion. It will also educate the
 >likes of Clarke et al, who claim to know so much about how the
 >MOD works, when in fact, they haven't a clue.

Georgina,

Your amusing remarks simply serve to illustrate how easily you
can be 'taken in' by stories spun by those who you dearly _want_
to believe.

Without realising it, you have revealed who it is who _truly_
hasn't a clue about how the MOD works. And you seriously
underestimate how easy it is to pull the wool over the eyes of
ufologists with long standing knowledge and experience, as Nick
Redfern and Jenny clearly have.

I'm not one for making predictions, but this time can assure you
that very soon you will be eating your own words.


Best wishes

Dave Clarke









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   Sep > Sep 10

                  Re: The Politicalization Of UFOs - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 14:06:54 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 15:47:54 -0400
Subject: Re: The Politicalization Of UFOs - Velez


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: The Politicalization Of UFOs
 >Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 19:42:22 +0000

 >Errol and List,

Hi Dick, hi All,

Dick wrote:

 >I am among those who feel that the Greerites, with all their
 >dubious tactics and politicalization of UFOs, are dominating the
 >subject (and this List) far too much. Kudos to Brad Sparks and
 >Jan Aldrich for their recently posted cogent remarks on this
 >issue, and also on the Johnstone extension of the same
 >phenomenon, I applaud Jerry Clark, Josh Goldstein, John Velez,
 >and Bob (even skeptics may be right sometimes) Young.

Please take the time to read my response to Jan Aldrich
regarding this new "Greer" offering. You can apply it as a
response to your comments here and it will 'fit' just as well.
:)

And thank you. It's comforting to know that at least a 'few' are
able to see where I am coming from. We are defined to a
significant degree (revealing the nature of our character) by
those we associate ourselves with as well as by those who have
set themselves in opposition to us. So far, I'm proud of both in
my life. Thanks for vote of support Dick. It means a lot to me
coming from you.

 >'Radicalization' is another word that applies to this extremist
 >takeover of the UFO subject. Once again, I urge people to check
 >out the web site and various postings of the Disclosure Project
 >spokesman and 'main man', Alfred L. Webre (not hard to find with
 >the unusual name spelling). He has made some of the most extreme
 >and outrageous political statements of anyone involved. The
 >radical tactics advocated by the Greerites are not only
 >extremist, as has been pointed out recently they are not even
 >based on credible or reliable information. It's "storm the
 >ramparts and truth be damned," all too reminiscent of the
 >mindless bottle and bomb throwing of anarchists.

Ahh, ufology!  ;)

In my deeply beloved game of chess, certain positions/situations
arise that are just ripe for taking advantage of. Just a kind of
'group dynamic' among the relationship of the pieces to each
other that can lend itself to brilliance or mayhem. It's the
same in life and ergo in ufology. Anybody willing to spend the
time studying the board will come to recognize the dynamic
components that lend themselves to _manipulation_ for one's own
purposes/advantage.

The opportunists/land sharks work the group dynamics in ufology
on one end for reasons of self enrichment or aggrandizement; and
I'm certain that the intelligence community is busy on the other
end working those same group dynamics to their own advantage
for purposes of control. I hope nobody living in the year 2001 -
or a member of this List - is still naive enough not to 'grok'
that reality.

There is more going on in ufology than meets the eye. 'Big
Brother' not only has a hand in, he's in up to his elbows!
Anything less on the part of the intelligence community would be
a gross negligence and a sign of incompetence. As much as I
consider them to be a bunch of misguided clowns I never make
the mistake of underestimating their intelligence.

 >All of this serves as a distraction from serious UFO research,
 >and does absolutely nothing to advance human knowledge. To the
 >contrary, it obscures far more important and valuable efforts
 >and, in effect, amounts to a 'UFO cover-up' by people whose
 >political motivations are highly suspect and whose standards of
 >logic and evidence are practically nonexistent. They are
 >muddling up and confusing the entire subject with their
 >shenanigans, which makes for a very effective 'cover-up'.

Which I firmly believe may very well be the whole 'point' of it.


Warm regards,

John Velez

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









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   Sep > Sep 10

             Re: ET Politics In Clinton White House - Strickland

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 12:26:32 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:14:22 -0400
Subject: Re: ET Politics In Clinton White House - Strickland


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 9 Sep 2001 19:01:48 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: ET Politics In Clinton White House - Part 4


 >Extraterrestrial Politics in the Clinton White House: White

 >"Recently I was in Washington meeting with a very famous
 >astronaut. Everyone would know this person's name... This
 >particular astronaut had during his career been in possession
 >of a very specific piece of incontrovertible piece of
 >evidence related to UFOs. It is something that if disclosed
 >would clear and definitive. This astronaut described how he
 >had approached and worked directly with President Clinton's
 >Secretary of Defense William Cohen to look into and retrieve
 >from classified projects this specific piece of evidence - of
 >that which he had all the specific details... the words used
 >by this astronaut to me were "there was an inordinate large
 >amount of money and personal time by the Secretary of Defense
 >William Cohen was spent to locate this evidence, and he was
 >never given access to it."
 >    Dr. Steven Greer Interview with Art Bell August 30, 2001


Dear Grant, Listers, Skeptics, Abductees,

Dr. Greer et al. and Art 'The Blow *Art' have succeeded in
frying my previous hopes about the possibility of some positive,
conclusive evidence forthcoming from the Disclosure Project. He
made clear his intentions and his motives in this little excerpt
that Grant chose to post to the List. It is evident that Steven
Greer et al, is just as big an ass as the people he has chosen
to challenge to tell the truth. He hasn't chosen to tell the
"whole" truth... not yet... his Disclosure Project noticeablely
fails to touch on the little side issue of abductions. Just in
case you haven't noticed.

Since I have always doubted the claimed motives behind much of
what Steven Greer's Disclosure Project is about, this only adds
fuel to the fire. Was this statement supposed to enlighten the
unenlightened? I think not. Greer's use of it was as a carrot to
be dangled in front of the so-called disinformationalists. It
shows Greer's true colors... his malevolence and his ignorance
about how inflamitory such a piece of enuendo can be - it only
serves to incite the "crazies" like me, an ex-abductee, into
writing incoherent letters to their Congressmen, participating
in "go-nowhere" debates on UFO Lists, supporting "hunger
strikes", etc. So _Greer_ doesn't have to open his flapping lips
about what he _does_ know... not yet. It's like the mystery
writer's method to sustain the suspense. Greer et al. are _good_
at that.

For those of us who are _intimately_ involved in ET abductions,
past and present, it grates more than a little on my nerves to
see that this "so-called" expert (Greer et al.) still dangles
carrots like this in the faces of hard-working, honest skeptics,
naive in the belief that their government is righteously
protecting their best interests. Crap. BS. Greer et al.
are attempting to _blackmail_ the powers-that-be into divulging
information they feel compelled to keep quiet. Period. Why do
you think that his Disclosure Project does not _even_ mention_
the monumental case studies they have amassed concerning
abductions of children through adulthood?

Greer et al. is using this type of carrot dangling like a
*+)(&^%$##$^ game (e.g., "See boys, if you don't bend over,
admit to your crass, immoral, unethical, illegal behavior...
well, you know what will happen. I've already given you a taste
of the carrot... my Disclosure Project will tell _all_. Now you
don't want the good American citizens of this country to know
that you've been in collusion with the ETs for 50+ years trading
ET Technology for our little children's ova and sperm, do you?
You don't really want a revolution, do you?") Yes, Greer does
want a revoltuion... he's a flaming idealist, under the mistaken
idea that the ETs are our space borthers: kind, gentle, loving
little creatures, only wanting to help us! Groan. Sorry folks,
"they" aren't perfect either. They aren't angels (as The Rev.
Billy Graham would like you to think). Some are smart, some
dumb, some have personal issues with certain individuals. They
aren't any better or worse than we humans have proven ourselves
to be over eons of time.

Throwing crap like this in the faces of the American public -
while _we_ and our children and grandchildren continue to be
treated like lab rats in an Earthly cage, is not only
xenophobic, it's tantamount to the German people's denial of
their collusion, participation and employment in Hilter's
extermination camps. Those that lived in the villages
surrounding the camps could _smell_ the human flesh burning.
After the war, the U.S. sent a team of sociologists over to the
villages to talk to the people, "so that we could learn from
this atrocity, so that it would never happen again." Most of the
villagers refused to acknowledge their participation in the
camps (though many were employed there), nor even that they had
heard about the crimes being committed, much less admit to
_smelling_ the burning human flesh. While you're enjoying your
life, there are _some_ of us who are continuously harassed and
terrorized by these creepy litter bugs. And, it doesn't matter
that you can't get your head around the facts right now, 'cause
Greer et al. is going to make _sure_ you do, sooner or later.
Count on it. In the meantime, enjoy your carrots.


Sue Strickland,
mother, grandmother and ex-abductee









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   Sep > Sep 10

             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 14:54:17 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:18:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Sparks


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Easton
 >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 03:14:05 +0100

 >Regarding:

 >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:23:23 EDT
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001


Dear List Members,

So Easton _admits_:

(a) He suppressed Nick Pope's explanation that he "could never
previously discuss" his "MOD work" that included the recently
"released" secret DIS "papers" on Rendlesham and

(b) He admits that he selectively quoted only the sentence that
preceded this explanation, and that he (Easton) had various
reasons to consciously justify this intentional suppression on
his part, and

(c) Admits he had proceeded to attack Pope for all of his
(Pope's) "previous" denials as if there was no explanation for
them.

Let's see where Easton does this (below).

All Easton had to do was quote Pope's explanation in his Sept. 7
post on this List and then explain that he does not believe
Pope's explanation for various reasons, etc. etc. Is that a
problem? That would have been the proper and intellectually
honest thing to do. I don't see why that should be so hard for
Easton and his sycophants to see - except that if Pope had been
quoted explaining why he had previously denied the existence of
secret files and secret investigations of Rendlesham it would
spoil their fun in making Pope look bad by quoting all of Pope's
previous denials and trying to get the maximum embarrassment
mileage they can out of the denials.

Now that this trick has been exposed, Easton and his sycophants
resort to whining that Pope's previous denials of secret files
and investigations of Rendlesham were too _convincing_.

 >Brad highlighted Pope's 'Weird World' claims:

 >"I'm pleased though surprised that some Defence Intelligence
 >Staff papers have been released, because although I worked with
 >the DIS frequently in the course of my official research and
 >investigation into the UFO phenomenon, this was a part of my MOD
 >work that I could never previously have discussed with the media
 >or the public".

As any intelligent reader of this List can see, this explanation
by Pope of his participation in the MOD coverup of its files on
the Rendlesham case _does_ relate to _Rendlesham_ despite
Easton's bold-faced efforts to allege that Pope was not even
talking about _Rendlesham_ here (see further down where Easton
argues this mindboggling proposition). It was a sentence in the
middle of the one and only paragraph contained in Pope's article
section entitled "The MOD Rendlesham Forest File." All one has
to do to be absolutely sure is read the surrounding context of
Pope's single paragraph posted here and see he is discussing the
recently released MOD file on Rendlesham. I will quote it below.

Or does Easton contend that Pope was talking about recently
"released" MOD papers on say, jackrabbits as a problem at air
bases (assuming for sake of argument there were such), in his
"The MOD Rendlesham Forest File" section of his (Pope's)
column???

Here is the entire section of Pope's column, posted here on
Sept. 2, on "The MOD Rendlesham Forest File":

http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/2001/sep/m02-015.shtml

[QUOTE FROM NICK POPE COLUMN, POSTED ON UFO UPDATES, SEPT. 2]

The MOD Rendlesham Forest File

As regular readers with an interest in ufology are doubtless
aware by now, Hot Gossip's Editor in Chief Georgina Bruni has
acquired the MOD's official file on the Rendlesham Forest UFO
incident. Georgina broke the story on August 17 on the popular
UFO UpDates List, and the Internet was soon buzzing with the
news. Georgina received numerous e-mails herself, and messages
were posted on various sites and discussion groups. The next day
a website was hastily put up, on which more sceptical opinions
were given an airing. [THIS IS THE SENTENCE EASTON QUOTES:] The
documents come from a file (or more accurately, from several
different files) that I used during my tour of duty in
Sec(AS)2a, from 1991 to 1994. [THIS IS THE NEXT SENTENCE THAT
EASTON SUPPRESSES:] I'm pleased though surprised that some
Defence Intelligence Staff papers have been released, because
although I worked with the DIS frequently in the course of my
official research and investigation into the UFO phenomenon,
this was a part of my MOD work that I could never previously
have discussed with the media or the public. Perhaps
appropriately, about the most recent paper on the file is a
briefing that I wrote for the Press Office in January 1994. I
was, of course, putting forward the _no defence significance_
party line. Georgina's summary of the file, her analysis of the
papers and her research into what they reveal are written up in
a massive 6000 word article which appears in the current edition
of UFO Magazine (UK), which went on sale on August 30. I'll be
writing my own analysis for the next edition of the magazine.
[END QUOTE]

Now does this or does this not all relate to Rendlesham?


 >Brad,

 >These supposedly 'suppressed' comments seem to have no relevance
 >to the Ministry of Defence's 'Rendlesham' file.

Here now Easton gives his excuse for suppressing Pope's
explanation on the grounds that _he_ (Easton) personally did not
believe the explanation was "relevant." The honest thing to have
done was to have quoted Pope and then said it wasn't believed
"relevant." I don't see why that is so hard - except of course
that quoting Pope's explanation ruins the whole feeding frenzy
of debunker attacks on Pope for denying the secret files which
wuld be spoiled if they quoted him explaining that he couldn't
previously discuss the secret files.

But as we saw (above) the comments by Pope _do_ relate to the
secret Rendlesham case papers recently released. Who is telling
the truth about whether the subject matter of the suppressed
sentence is on Rendlesham or not, me or Easton?

 >As you should know if reading previous related material, it's
 >evident that Pope was entirely oblivious of any MoD
 >investigations.

Whether that is "evident" is an assumption Easton makes, not a
statement of fact, given that Pope claims he did know about the
MoD investigations but previously couldn't discuss it.

 >This is not a situation where Pope had _ever_ noted there was
 >some case material he couldn't discuss, it's one where he
 >explained on a number of occasions, and in detail, that the
 >Ministry had not followed up Halt's memo, so far as he was
 >aware. Indeed, Pope lamented the fact, as confirmed to 'UFO
 >Magazine' in 1996:

Here Easton argues over the veracity or adequacy of Pope's
explanation that he "could never previously discuss" his "MOD
work" that included the recently "released" secret DIS "papers"
on Rendlesham.

 >Nick Pope: ...on each joint USAF/RAF base there is an RAF
 >Commander; but it's really only a nominal title; these
 >facilities are basically USAF bases. I believe for legal reasons
 >they must have an RAF Commander who acts as the conduit between
 >the USAF and the Ministry of Defence. My best assessment of what
 >happened next is - absolutely nothing! The report was written on
 >the 13th January and when it arrived at Whitehall, whoever was
 >doing the job didn't have the faintest idea what to do with it,
 >probably took one look at it and said, what am I supposed to do?
 >I am afraid to say it simply ended up in a file. [END]

 >Asked how he would have responded, Pope replied:

 >"I would have immediately impounded the radar tapes and had them
 >sent to me, and immediately called RAF defence experts in, we
 >would have sat down, looked at the tapes and analysed the
 >content to see if they showed structured craft or spurious
 >returns. Interview statements would have followed...".

 >The interview continued:

 >UFO Magazine: But this allegedly did not happen in 1980?

 >Nick Pope: At the end of the day this did not happen, so far as
 >I am aware.

 >[...]

 >UFO Magazine: Was there a cover-up?

 >Nick Pope: No. Not in the MoD - I think the MoD's response was
 >just ineffective.

 >UFO: That's a very big statement?

 >Nick Pope: Yes, but if something of that magnitude was reported
 >and simply placed on file, then what else can you say?

 >Pope concluded, "The standard line on Rendlesham Forest is that
 >the incident was looked into, and nothing of defence significance
 >was uncovered. The challenge, as it where, to the department, is
 >that we have never seen the analysis".

A slipup by Pope? There was an "analysis" by someone???

 >It's really straightforward - unless of course you believe Pope
 >intentionally misled everyone to that extent, and completely
 >unnecessarily?

In other words, Easton is complaining that Pope was so
_convincing_ in his past denials of secret MoD files and
investigations.

 >If you are, please explain why Pope couldn't mention that the
 >Ministry had investigated Halt's claims - without any
 >requirement to discuss 'classified' documents - and instead
 >engaged on the following dialogue with Dave Clarke and Andy
 >Roberts, only a few months ago:

 >Pope: I find Rendlesham bizarre; looking at the Rendlesham
 >Forest file, it starts obviously with Halt's memo and Don
 >Moreland's covering note and then frankly there isn't a lot. In
 >fact, as I recall, I don't think there is anything until the
 >News of the World and Chuck de Caro's documentary, some papers
 >from the Public Affairs Office 3rd Air Force about the handling
 >of this and then it turns into correspondence. Now I suppose
 >there are two options - who knows, maybe Nick Redfern's right.

 >Clarke: There must be something missing there then?

 >Pope: Something missing or missing a trick, but it depends what
 >you mean. If you look very carefully at what you have been told
 >about Rendlesham, it says I think nothing more than Colonel
 >Halt's report was examined carefully at the time by those
 >officers responsible for looking at the Air Defence of the realm
 >and the conclusion was that nothing of any defence significance
 >was involved and as such no further action was taken. Well, that
 >is I'm sure technically a true statement. Whether it implies
 >that anyone actually sat down and did any sort of sucking of
 >teeth, you know, interviewing of witnesses, etc I don't think it
 >does - I think if that memo arrived to DS8 at the time,
 >side-copied to two or three specialist divisions and if it had
 >sat on file with nothing else being done then the statements
 >made on Rendlesham are still true; it was examined by, because
 >when it came out of the envelope it would have been read, so it
 >was examined by, and its almost chicken and egg by virtue of the
 >fact that they placed it on the file and didn't do any
 >investigation with a capital I, you could say well, its an
 >assumption of course, but if you trust people to know their jobs
 >they must have looked at them, they must have concluded for
 >whatever reason that there was nothing of any defence
 >significance. So the statements that you got were not
 >falsehoods, but I think and you know I have to be careful what I
 >say here, I think I think they are potentially misleading. I can
 >see why UFOlogists would feel that they had been misled. I still
 >think it is a case of a mistake rather than a missing file, I
 >really don't think that the nettle was grasped. Unless Halt and
 >Moreland and you know, even in most of the USAF patrols, they
 >say, and Halt and Moreland certainly say, I wrote my report and
 >I forwarded it and we heard nothing back, nobody interviewed us,
 >nobody phoned me up and asked for further details, nobody came
 >and asked to interview the primary witnesses, this didn't
 >happen.

 >Clarke: Are you saying then that the letter and cover-note dated
 >the 13 January 1981 was the first that the MOD would have heard
 >about the case?

 >Pope: Yes. Yes. I think so. Yes.

 >Clarke: That raises the question then that after such a length of
 >time had passed - over 2 weeks - how would you have been able to
 >check out that information?

 >Pope: Well you probably wouldn't. Moreland was on leave. Halt
 >briefed Moreland on it orally. Moreland I think told Halt well
 >do a report, Halt was not going to have done that unless
 >Moreland told him to do it, therefore Halt was already working
 >in a situation where it was some days after the event. Now I'm
 >not sure if Moreland knows if he was on one week's break or two,
 >it's all in Georgina's book.

 >Clarke: Would the radar tapes still have been available 2 weeks
 >later?

 >Pope: They should have been. Certainly in my time, now that's
 >difficult, now in 1980 I very much doubt that the system that I
 >had inherited had been operating.certainly during my tour of
 >duty radar data from say, places like Portreath and Neatishead
 >would be downloaded onto standard VHS cassette and would be kept
 >for about a month, on each day they would take the 30th one and
 >stick it in the machine, press play and record. So I don't know
 >the answer to that question, you would have to ask the MOD what
 >the practice was at that time. However, as you know, certainly
 >and I've forgotten his name but I have personally spoken to him,
 >I'm talking about one of the duty officers at Watton, the one
 >that Georgina interviewed, but I had spoken with him, in fact I
 >had put him in touch with Georgina, bizarrely he had interviewed
 >me as a local DJ somewhere in East Anglia, he had interviewed me
 >for Operation Thunderchild or whatever, and afterwards he said
 >look, I'll tell you why I'm so interested in all this, I used to
 >be a radar operator at Watton, and he said there was an incident
 >- quite a famous one actually - back in 1980, sometime around
 >Christmas, I was on duty and I got a call from someone at
 >Bentwaters/Woodbridge who said 'have you got anything on the
 >screens' and he said I will look, two or three sweeps, and he
 >said 'bloody hell, yes there is something right over the base'
 >and he said that after 2 or 3 sweeps it faded out and was gone
 >and he said, yes there was something and that was about it.

 >[...]

 > Clarke: So you're saying there was no cover-up over Rendlesham?

 >Pope: I'm aware of no cover-up over Rendlesham. I'm aware of -
 >and I chose my words carefully again - what I can understand
 >might be perceived as almost a criminal lack of action... as you
 >know anything that is perceived as a cover-up I actually think
 >it is bureaucracy or cock-up or whatever. Bear in mind as well
 >that the fact that the desk officer [tape break]

 >Clarke: I don't want to prattle on about Rendlesham for too
 >long, and there are other important cases, but I want to ask you
 >do you think there is anything else to emerge?

 >Pope: Not from the official records in Britain, no. Now whether
 >there is some 3rd Air Force, USAF, OSI stuff, whatever I don't
 >know.

 >[...]

 >[END]

 >In the statement which you allege was 'suppressed' [even though
 >Pope's newsletter had previously been sent to all UpDates
 >subscribers], does Pope state that any 'Defence Intelligence
 >Staff' papers he had seen were connected to 'Rendlesham'?

 >Of course not.

Here is where Easton bold-facedly denies that Pope was even
talking about Rendlesham when Pope explained (in his article
"The MOD Rendlesham Forest File") that he couldn't previously
discuss the secret MoD files and work on Rendlesham, not until
the surprising file release occurred!

Also, it is quite convenient to suggest that a posting made by
someone else 5 days and dozens of postings earlier somehow
relieves Easton of the responsibility to quote _both_ sentences
by Pope rather than the one designed to paint him in the worst
light possible.

Again, here is the entire Nick Pope column item on the release
of the secret Rendlesham case files. You the reader be the judge
of whether Pope was talking about papers "connected to
'Rendlesham' " or not:

http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/2001/sep/m02-015.shtml

[QUOTE FROM NICK POPE COLUMN, POSTED ON UFO UPDATES, SEPT. 2]

The MOD Rendlesham Forest File

As regular readers with an interest in ufology are doubtless
aware by now, Hot Gossip's Editor in Chief Georgina Bruni has
acquired the MOD's official file on the Rendlesham Forest UFO
incident. Georgina broke the story on August 17 on the popular
UFO UpDates List, and the Internet was soon buzzing with the
news. Georgina received numerous e-mails herself, and messages
were posted on various sites and discussion groups. The next day
a website was hastily put up, on which more sceptical opinions
were given an airing. [THIS IS THE SENTENCE EASTON QUOTES:] The
documents come from a file (or more accurately, from several
different files) that I used during my tour of duty in
Sec(AS)2a, from 1991 to 1994. [THIS IS THE NEXT SENTENCE THAT
EASTON SUPPRESSES:] I'm pleased though surprised that some
Defence Intelligence Staff papers have been released, because
although I worked with the DIS frequently in the course of my
official research and investigation into the UFO phenomenon,
this was a part of my MOD work that I could never previously
have discussed with the media or the public. Perhaps
appropriately, about the most recent paper on the file is a
briefing that I wrote for the Press Office in January 1994. I
was, of course, putting forward the _no defence significance_
party line. Georgina's summary of the file, her analysis of the
papers and her research into what they reveal are written up in
a massive 6000 word article which appears in the current edition
of UFO Magazine (UK), which went on sale on August 30. I'll be
writing my own analysis for the next edition of the magazine.
[END QUOTE]

Now does this or does this not _all_ relate to Rendlesham?

 >It might be the impression he gives, whether intentionally, I
 >can't say. The irony is I had explained the factual background
 >so that Pope's comments wouldn't mislead anyone, especially
 >those who some could surmise were targeted as most gullible and
 >would 'fall for it'... big time.

 >I'm not sure how you seemingly missed the thorough
 >clarifications which were emphasised.

 >It is, however, surely not too much if we ask that you verify
 >whether deductions are factually watertight, especially if
 >already evidenced otherwise, before embarking on a ridiculous,
 >non-factual, tirade. Especially one that's categorically
 >libellous.

Easton's attacks on Pope by misquoting him are false, designed
to paint him in a false light (that he had no explanation for
his previous denials of secret Rendlesham files, when he did
have an explanation and Easton suppressed it), impugn his
character and are potentially "libellous." My pointing out the
highly public debunker Easton's now admitted suppression or
misquotation of Pope is certainly true and cannot therefore be
"libellous."

 >Dave Clarke writes:

 >"I look forward to Brad's apology to Easton, and trust it won't
 >be substituted with yet another knee-jerk polemic against
 >"sceptics" and "debunkers."

 >I'm not remotely troubled by pursuing an apology, however, you
 >do now have to justify the publicised slur.

 >Can you evidentially do so? If not, then perhaps an apology is
 >proven as absolutely warranted.

The documentation for Easton's suppression of Pope's explanation
(that Pope said he previously had to deny there were secret
Rendlesham files) was given from the start and there was no
"slur." Easton has now compounded it all by trying to deny the
undeniable, by denying that Pope's explanation even had to do
with Rendlesham!

I do apologize if I had not made that completely clear!

 >As an aside, one gem of a comment from Nick Pope is contained
 >within the MoD papers.

 >In a January 1994 'loose minute' to David Davies at DPO(RAF),
 >concerning "Central TV's request for information on the UFO
 >sighting in Rendlesham Forest in December 1980", Pope advised:

 >"I believe that it will be in our interests to be as helpful as
 >we can, and to try and reflect the good relationship that we now
 >have with many of the more serious UFO groups and researchers.
 >There are still a few within the field who believe that the MOD
 >is involved in a cover-up, and I think the more helpful and open
 >we are, the less likely it is that this view will get an
 >airing".

 >"There are still a few within the field who believe that the MOD
 >is involved in a cover-up..."?

 >Kudos to Nick Pope for an informed debunking of _that_ nonsense!

Again, a backhanded complaint that Pope was so _convincing_ in
denying that there was a coverup of secret MoD files and
investigations.









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   Sep > Sep 10

                              Re: Irony - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:41:13 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:20:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Irony - Hall


 >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 11:19:50 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez
 >Subject: Re: Irony

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 >>Subject: Irony
 >>Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 18:41:33 -0500

 >Hi Alfred, hi All,
 >You wrote:

 >>I'm glad I don't gag easily on irony. Those seemingly so
 >>concerned with Ms. Johnstone's health and welfare previously are
 >>now astonishingly critical that she's not being anywhere near
 >>hard enough on herself. Perhaps we should all try for a smidgeon
 >>more consistency.

 >I can't speak for anybody else but my perceived "inconsistency"
 >coincided with my learning of _what_ Lara's "hunger-strike"
 >consisted of.

 >>Moreover, dismissed as a fat girl with a commie agenda,
 >>conveniently losing weight for 15 minutes of fame... is contrary
 >>to the reality of a nation functioning as the Rome of the 21st
 >>century, a nation much better served by strident criticism than
 >>reactionary and uninformed adulation.

 >Tell me the truth Alfred, (at first) didn't you think that Lara
 >was engaged in a traditionally defined, political hunger-strike?
 >I know I did. When I first read of her 'hunger-strike' I
 >thought, "Oh my God, this poor woman is going to starve herself
 >to death in order to get Dubya to cop to the realty of UFOs." At
 >that point, thinking that she was actually starving herself and
 >knowing what a knothead Dubya is, I figured, "she's a dead
 >woman." I immediately composed my first post on this thread
 >expressing a very real concern for her welfare and safety.

 >Then... three weeks later, I find out that she's "fasting" not
 >in the traditional (Ghandi style, political hunger-strike) that
 >I thought she was. That she is in fact on what can only be
 >called a fairly strict 'diet'. I felt like I had been fooled
 >and taken in. It turns out that all my worry and concern was for
 >naught, about nothing.

 >_That_ is why I recently expressed the thoughts and feelings
 >that I have.

 >>This woman holds herself proudly while standing for righteous
 >>principal. She maintains her position while sustaining
 >>withering patronization, ridicule, and insult. She confronts a
 >>legitimate problem head-on while others otherwise count points,
 >>airily pronounce and blithely pontificate.

 >Alfred you already know how much I love and respect you. You are
 >one of the few people who have been actively and energetically
 >supporting Lara's alleged "fast" that I have any _real_ respect
 >for.

 >I can easily accept and support you in your support of her
 >because I know you, and I _know_ that that support (coming from
 >you) is honest and sincere. I can only hope that you are able to
 >see and to respect my take/point of view, and to accept it as
 >being as honest and sincere in origin as your own. You know me
 >man. I am not just being a 'hard-ass' with Lara for fun.

 >My caring about this subject is genuine. It's not just _talk_
 >with me. I have backed up my words with _deeds_ and _dedicated_
 >hard work for many years. I'm here because I came to _work_ and
 >because I _really_ care. The opinions that I post are not phony
 >BS that I make-up just to see my own words in print. (And you,
 >more so than most, _know_ the truth of that.)

 >Support me in my stand as I do you in yours. We know each other's
 >Hearts and that the positions/stands that we take are taken in
 >(earnest) honesty and sincerity.

 >>That's the alien view.

 >And a damned fine one it is. :)

 >Warmest regards, tu amigo siempre, (in spite of any differences
 >of opinion,...)


List,

I think we should appoint John as ambassador to Mars, or the Nth
dimension, or wherever the little buggers come from. His
patience, gentility, and sense of fairplay are non pareil.


Dick









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                     Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Jones

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:19:54 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:23:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Jones


 >From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 08:14:17 EDT
 >Subject: Nazi UFOs And All That
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Dear All,

 >Nice to be back.

 >Jane's Defence Weekly's very own Aerospace expert Nick Cook has
 >just had his 'The Hunt For Zero Point' published by Century in
 >the UK. Several people have e-mailed me to congratulate me on
 >having published the bulk of material in 'UFO Revelation' over
 >two years ago. In fact, Cook didn't use many of the documents
 >that I did, but he concentrated much more on "anti-gravity"
 >technologies. Nevertheless, Cook has made some very important
 >new discoveries and, with Bill Rose's continued efforts and
 >those of Canadian Aerospace historian Bill Zuk, we now have an
 >emerging and improved picture of Nazi and man-made flying disc
 >technologies.

Tim, long time no see.

How's the married father these days?

I wonder how many Americans realise that man was put on the moon
by the same man the built the V2?

I wonder how many really realise what the Paper-clip conspiracy
was all about, for it wasn't just getting German scientists out
of Germany.

Kindest regards

--

    In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                         Sean Jones









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                     Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike'

From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
Date: 9 Sep 2001 22:33:16 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:00:00 -0400
Subject: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike'


On Sunday September 9 - Day 44 Lara Johnstone made the decision
to end her hunger strike to encourage President Bush to fulfill
his promise to Charles Huffer to disclose the truth about UFOs.
She discussed her decision to end the hunger strike, prior to
ending it, with some of the supporters who had been with her for
most of her effort to achieve disclosure.

When I talked to her Sunday evening, she said the hunger strike
was supposed to focus on disclosure. It was now focused on her
and the time to end it had come. Minutes later at rest stop on
her bus trip from Oakland to Los Angeles to speak at a
conference Lara stopped and ate a burger. "It was a small
vegetable one," she told me in a phone call minutes later.

Despite a letter from her congress woman Barbara Lee requesting
that the President provide Lara Johnstone with a reply to her
July 26, 2001 letter, it appears that the President will not be
forced to answer mail from constituents.

Lara told me that, in the end, Mr. Bush had no support to make a
UFO disclosure. The American people and even many inside of the
UFO community have many issues on their mind ahead of
Disclosure. In order to make such a big move the President needs
broad consensus. It was evident this did not exist.

Even many inside the UFO community were not prepared to do
anything more than talk about the issue. On many occasions I
discussed this fact with Lara. She stated that she was quite
surprised at how different the UFO community was than other
protest communities.

It appears to this author that the UFO community is a community
in diapers whose time to contribute to the world is still some
time in the future. I told Lara that if her effort for
disclosure worked UFO people would become the new power, and
we'd surely blow up the world in the first week with our
fighting.

The attacks on Lara from the UFO community, particularly the UFO
UpDates List took their toll. Lara told me when asked for a
comment about this said that naysayers exist in all movements.
However, in other movements those striving to achieve an
objective join together and ignore the noise. This does not
happen as much in the UFO community, and is maybe one of the
things that can be learned from her hunger strike.

Lara will be putting up a statement on September 11 about her
decision to end the hunger strike. It will appear on her web
site.

www.bushufodisclosure.com

Many will say that the hunger strike is a failure because Bush
was able to just ignore the issue and continue on with his plans
to drill for more oil, and ignore treaties dealing with weapons
in space and green house gases.

The analysis is not that simple. I firmly believe that
disclosure will not come from some 'hail Mary' pass play that
scores the winning touchdown. Like evolution it will occur in
small bits rather than large bites. It comes from people like
Lara who put one foot in front of the other and edge the ball
further down the field. The ball is definitely closer to the
goal line than it was 44 days ago.

When the UFO community has moved the ball over and over down the
field, and when the general population is ready - then
disclosure will come. Let's all pray for $20.00 a gallon gas
prices.

People are not ready for disclosure yet. Perhaps that is why the
aliens have not ended the mystery with their own landing on the
White House lawn, or by cutting in during Monday night football
to announce their arrival. They can see the baby bottles
sticking out of our back pockets, and know we have things to
work out first.

Lara wished to thank all those who have offered her support over
the many days of her effort. She was moved by many of the
letters, and considers many of those she has met friends for
life.

Lara will continue to work for disclosure as she still believes
this one of the critical issues of our time. If in the future
she believes that a hunger strike would be supported, and that
it is the thing that would be needed she said she would do it
again.

Speaking on behalf of those close to Lara I would like to thank
Lara for her contribution to the Disclosure movement. Even
though they were never made public, we know the dramatic things
she lost in taking on this challenge. They were things that we
more earth bound souls would never think of giving up.

I am sure that those closest to Lara consider her a hero, and
will join her in a minute to help her in any new plans she has
for disclosure. She has been a prime example of sacrifice,
determination, and selflessness. Her contribution to this field
will long be remembered.


Grant Cameron


"Are you ready for the revolution?"
Lara Johnstone, a California woman who began a Hunger Strike for
Disclosure on July 28th.







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                                 Words Fail

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 07:49:08 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 07:49:08 -0400
Subject: Words Fail


Horrified eyes glued to a TV set. Incomprehensible. Awful. Sad.


ebk










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                                Black Tuesday

From: John <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:37:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 08:04:03 -0400
Subject: Black Tuesday


Hello All,

In a twenty-minute period we lost more lives today than in the
whole of the Viet Nam war. I can see the black cloud rising up
from the downtown area of Manhattan from my office window.

In shock,

John Velez, New York
                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."







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                              Tragedy In The US

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:17:16 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 08:06:54 -0400
Subject: Tragedy In The US


Americans, Canadians, and all affected

My condolences to all Americans for the atrocity that has been
visited upon them today. My God grant all those affected the
peace and strength that they will need to see them through this
tragedy.

May they also be assured that the perpetrators of this crime
will not go unpunished for God will remember all on the day of
judgement.

I hope that John Velez, Bud Hopkins, Linda Cortile, Jim
Mortellaro and everyone else that I know who lives in the New
York area has come through today physically unhurt, and may
their mental scars heal quickly.

--


    In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                         Sean Jones
               http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/








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                                 Condolences

From: William Sawers <syntax@slingshot.co.nz>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:55:27 +1200
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 08:09:39 -0400
Subject: Condolences


Errol and List

To my friends from the US and elsewhere
at the heartbreaking tragedy of the last
hours

Nothing can be said to express the shock and
horror that unfolded before our eyes last
night

The shock is still sinking in throughout NZ and
we send you our deepest sorrow at what you must
be experiencing.

God be with you and God Bless us All


William









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                              Terrorist Attack

From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:12:47 +0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 08:10:43 -0400
Subject: Terrorist Attack


To all in the US,

I am so devistated by what is happening in America
at this time.  My prayers go to all who know someone
caught in the tragedy.

In my prayers
Sharon Kardol, Western Australia.








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                      9-11 - A Date That A Nation Wept

From: David Furlotte <furry@nobelmed.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:42:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:37:49 -0400
Subject: 9-11 - A Date That A Nation Wept


Dear List members,

My horror at watching what transpired cannot
effectively be conveyed with mere words.

My deepest condolences for the incredible loss of
life caused by these cowardly attacks on the
innocent.


Dave (Furry) Furlotte











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                                    Hope

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:14:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:39:21 -0400
Subject: Hope


Let us hope that, when this is all finished, there is more peace
throughout the world, everywhere, so that this becomes some sort
of sacrifice and not a meaningless loss of lives.

My best to all fellow Americans.


Serge









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                                  Nightmare

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 07:51:01 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:43:40 -0400
Subject: Nightmare


"I fear that all we have done is awaken the sleeping giant and
  filled him with terrible resolve."

              -- Adm. Yamamoto-commander Japanese Imperial Navy
                                                    DEC 7, 1941


This is act of War against not only the U.S. but against the
civilized World.


"We can get choked on a Gnat but when called on, we can swallow
Tigers whole."

                      --Sen. Eugene McCarthy (the good McCarthy)


May God give Us the strengthened resolve to see this through to
the only possible conclusion.









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                               Re: Words Fail

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 07:25:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:49:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Words Fail


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 07:49:08 -0400
 >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Words Fail


 >Gentle Reader,

 >Horrified eyes glued to a TV set. Incomprehensible. Awful. Sad.


It's a terrible new spin on the world, for sure... Understanding
pushed further and further away. We'll be mired to our glands
for years as a result of this, pushed around and manipulated by
emotions and at the whim of the social conservatives. It's a
dark day on _many_ levels.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by scurrilous
skepti-bunkies.









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                          Re: Black Tuesday - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:30:34 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:51:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Black Tuesday - Hall


 >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:37:02 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John
 >Subject: Black Tuesday

 >Hello All,

 >In a twenty-minute period we lost more lives today than in the
 >whole of the Viet Nam war. I can see the black cloud rising up
 >from the downtown area of Manhattan from my office window.

 >In shock,

 >John Velez, New York

John,

People have been inquiring about the welfare of Budd Hopkins and
Greg Sandow, both of whom live in lower Manhattan. Please keep
us informed if you learn anything.

Dick










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                               Re: Condolences

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:29:42 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:53:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Condolences


 >From: William Sawers <syntax@slingshot.co.nz>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Condolences
 >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:55:27 +1200

 >Errol and List

 >To my friends from the US and elsewhere
 >at the heartbreaking tragedy of the last
 >hours

 >Nothing can be said to express the shock and
 >horror that unfolded before our eyes last
 >night

 >The shock is still sinking in throughout NZ and
 >we send you our deepest sorrow at what you must
 >be experiencing.

 >God be with you and God Bless us All

 >William


I join myself to these words of condolence,
after such a terrifying  tragedy.


Gildas Bourdais, from France








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                   CCCRN News: Terrorist Tragedy in the US

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:36:58 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:56:25 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Terrorist Tragedy in the US



CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

September 12, 2001

_____________________________


I have been watching the news coverage of this unbelievable
barbaric act in the US and wish to send my thoughts and prayers
to everyone, particularly those in the New York and Washington
areas. The scenes we are seeing are incomprehensible, surreal
even.

The cowardly people who committed this act of terror must be
found and brought to justice. Our freedom and democracy must be
protected, but they will also prevail.

On behalf of our entire CCCRN network,

Paul Anderson

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events. CCCRN
News is available free by subscription:

To subscribe to CCCRN News, send a blank e-mail to:
cccrnnews-subscribe@topica.com

To unsubscribe from CCCRN News, send a blank e-mail to:
cccrnnews-unsubscribe@topica.com

CCCRN News Archive:
http://www.topica.com/lists/cccrnnews/read


The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which investigates the crop circle
phenomenon and other possibly related phenomena in Canada,
creating a liason between researchers, farmers, the public, the
media and scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma

Main Office:
202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

Provincial Branches:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/contacts.html

Circle Phenomena in Canada 2001:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/circlescanada01.html

Fields of Dreams Webcast Radio Show:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/fieldsofdreams.html


� Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2001









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                                  Holy War

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:53:01 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:57:32 -0400
Subject: Holy War


For the first time in my life I seek not justice, but blood. I
am certain the world will not like this change that is sweeping
the psyche of our nation, but there are excessively rare times
when justice alone is not adequate. Let there be no mistake, we
are preparing for war and it will not be fought on the shores of
our nation, but in these cowards own homes.

This was no random car bombing, etc. by cowards. This act went
far beyond the act of terroism to an overt act of war. There is
a huge difference. We, as a people, cry when we hear of
terrorist acts in Europe and elsewhere, but this act today was
not something our people will tolerate or absorb, for it was far
more than a few fanatics killing a few dozen innocent people.
Our body count will be in the thousands and will be more than
our nation will bear or tolerate.

Like Yamamoto said after the attack on Pearl Habor: "I fear we
have awaken the sleeping giant." We are, once again, wide awake.
The gauntlet has been cast and the world should prepare to
tremble. for we have no choice but to draw our sword so long
sheathed. Our first swing of the blade will be direct and
without parallel in history, for what happened today cannot be
repaired by diplomacy or political maneuvering.

Those nations who will not stand with us will forever be
considered our enemies. What happened today cannot or will not
be forgiven. Our leaders may well posturize and pontificate, but
our people will demand the blood of evil to be drained from
these fanatics and their future generations forever.


Wendy Connors








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                               Re: Words Fail

From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 07:47:59 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:01:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Words Fail


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
 >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 07:49:08 -0400
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Words Fail


 >Gentle Reader,

 >Horrified eyes glued to a TV set. Incomprehensible. Awful. Sad.

 >ebk


Amen.

Jean









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                            Re: Tragedy In The US

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:26:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:06:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Tragedy In The US


 >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:17:16 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Tragedy In The US

 >Americans, Canadians, and all affected

 >My condolences to all Americans for the atrocity that has been
 >visited upon them today. My God grant all those affected the
 >peace and strength that they will need to see them through this
 >tragedy.

 >May they also be assured that the perpetrators of this crime
 >will not go unpunished for God will remember all on the day of
 >judgement.

 >I hope that John Velez, Bud Hopkins, Linda Cortile, Jim
 >Mortellaro and everyone else that I know who lives in the New
 >York area has come through today physically unhurt, and may
 >their mental scars heal quickly.

Hi Sean, hi All,

Out of all of us, the one who lives closest to 'ground zero' is
Linda. Her apartment building is on the East side just blocks
away from the disaster. I've been calling her since yesterday
but her phone has been 'busy' the whole time. I don't know if
she's taken it off the hook intentionally or if there are simply
problems with the phone lines downtown (likely) but at least the
line is alive.

Budd and his wife Carol live on 16th Street in the Chelsea
section of Manhattan. According to all reports everything above
14th Street was unaffected by the attack.

Greg Sandow and his wife Anne live in mid-town. I spoke with him
and they are fine. So unless Budd or Carol had some business
downtown they should also be ok.

Jim Mortellaro lives north/outside of the city limits in
Westchester County with his wife Rosie. I'm sure we'll hear from
him shortly.

My wife works downtown just the other side of the Manhattan
Bridge. I was concerned for her safety but she made it home
alright. I took a picture from the intersection of Rockaway
Blvd. and Atlantic avenue in Queens. (1 Block from my house) Up
until yesterday morning, you could see the tops of the World
Trade Center sticking up above the rooftops of the nearby local
buildings. Bear in mind when you look at the picture that I am
located about 5 to 6 miles away from the WTC. That's how _HUGE_
the smoke and debris cloud is.

We all need to pray for the families of the innocent people,
policemen, firemen, EMS workers that perished in this horrendous
and inhuman act of barbarism.

Have no doubt... whoever is responsible _will_ pay. And probably
with their own lives and with the very real possibility of
collateral damage from the retaliation of the US government, the
lives of even more 'innocent' people as well. We just need to
pray for us all.

Depressed and in complete shock,


John Velez

sure we'll hear


                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









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                                 Condolences

From: Anthony Chippendale <anthonyc@ufon.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:56:04 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:08:05 -0400
Subject: Condolences


On behalf of myself and The UFO Network, I would like to offer
my condolences to my American friends and to everyone who has
lost a friend or relative in the utterly evil terrorist attacks
on America.

- Anthony Chippendale
   anthonyc@ufon.org
   http://www.ufon.org.uk
   ICQ: 48472589

When you are true to yourself and open your heart and mind, the
possibilites are endless.









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                                  To My Son

From: Dan Geib <geibdan@qtm.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:17:46 GMT
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:52:17 -0400
Subject: To My Son


To my son today I said,
The world will never be the same again.

There is hatred and evil in the world that our caring and
compasionate souls will never understand.

The God we worship is not the god that people use to claim
justification in senseless killings and cowardly murder.

To me, my son said,
Dad, what are we to do?

Have faith son.

Faith that mankind will cary on. The justice will be serverd. As
I dropped him off at school today I said son, "Take that
marvelous mind and compasionate soul of yours and learn well, so
you may be best prepared to use your heart and mind to be a
peaceful and positive member of this great world of ours"

God Bless America and the values and ideals it represents. God
have mercy on those that perished & survived today

Dan








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                          My Thoughts Are With You

From: Adam Lowe <nicap@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:29:31 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:55:32 -0400
Subject: My Thoughts Are With You


Hi everyone.

My thoughts are with anyone affected by this atrocity. I can't
think of a lot else to say. It's an unbelievable tragedy.

Adam









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                               Re: Words Fail

From: Thiago Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:10:54 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:58:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Words Fail


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
 >Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:49 AM
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Words Fail

 >Gentle Reader,

 >Horrified eyes glued to a TV set. Incomprehensible. Awful. Sad.

 >ebk


Words now are no solution for those whose lost the loved ones.

My condolences to the North-American people.

God bless you.

Thiago Luiz Ticchetti
Vice-Presidente da Entidade Brasileira de Estudos
Extraterrestres(Braslia/Brasil)
(EBE-ET VICE PRESIDENT)

www.ebe-et.com.br
ICQ 35119615






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                                Re: Holy War

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:40:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 02:00:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Holy War


 >From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Holy War
 >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:53:01 -0600


Wendy,

 >Those nations who will not stand with us will forever be
 >considered our enemies. What happened today cannot or will not
 >be forgiven. Our leaders may well posturize and pontificate, but
 >our people will demand the blood of evil to be drained from
 >these fanatics and their future generations forever.

I understand your sorrow. But this language is the same language
used by terrorists around the world.

Yes, the people responsible for this need to be punished.

But we must consider that the unraveling drama is the daily
reality of many people on this planet. Most of the time, if not
all the time, hatred and/or ignorance an/or sheer indifference
maintain this reality. Could we walk in their shoes? We all
should.

Hate, ignorance and indifference are the only evil, the true
enemy. Let's do our best to destroy it.


Best,

Serge








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                         Re: Black Tuesday - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:22:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 02:02:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Black Tuesday - Sandow


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Black Tuesday
 >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:30:34 +0000

 >People have been inquiring about the welfare of Budd Hopkins and
 >Greg Sandow, both of whom live in lower Manhattan. Please keep
 >us informed if you learn anything.

I'm fine, and Budd and Carol are, too. We all live far enough
uptown not to be directly affected, either by the blasts, the
debris, the smoke and ash, or the evacuations. My wife and I
didn't even know anything had happened till someone called us at
11 AM yesterday. We can't see the World Trade Center from our
apartment, and we didn't hear anything. Once we had the news, we
realized that the cloud we saw over rooftops south of us wasn't
a cloud - it was smoke from the disaster. From then on, we were
glued to TV.

We've donated things to the rescue teams, and tried to give
blood. We were turned away at the Red Cross, too, for the happy
reason that they have more donors right now than they can
handle.

We're shocked and scared, needless to say. It's hard to believe
this is real, even with clouds of smoke where the towers used to
be. My wife has a friend who worked in one of the buildings.
Thinking of him gave us our only really horrible moments, but he
was fine. Nothing we've gone through compares - obviously - to
the real horror others have experienced.

New York is odd today, again needless to say. I've happened to
pass a couple of firehouses, and both were grim reminders. At
one, people had offered bouquets of flowers. At the other, the
firefighters were hosing down one of their trucks, which was
covered with white ash.

Thanks from the bottom of my heart to everyone for the many
expressions of concern, anger, dismay, and hope. It means a lot
to me, and I'm sure to everyone else from New York on this List.


Greg Sandow









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                                 Condolences

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:47:36 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 02:03:16 -0400
Subject: Condolences


I would like to send my condolences to our friends in America.
Words cannot express how I feel.

John Hayes
webmaster@ufoinfo.com
http://ufoinfo.com
John Hayes

webmaster@ufoinfo.com

UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Filer's Files and Oz Files.








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                                Re: Nightmare

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:59:10 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 02:06:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Nightmare


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Nightmare
 >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 07:51:01 -0700

 >"I fear that all we have done is awaken the sleeping giant and
 >  filled him with terrible resolve."

 >              -- Adm. Yamamoto-commander Japanese Imperial Navy

 >This is act of War against not only the U.S. but against the
 >civilized World.

 >"We can get choked on a Gnat but when called on, we can swallow
 >Tigers whole."

 >                      --Sen. Eugene McCarthy (the good McCarthy)

 >May God give Us the strengthened resolve to see this through to
 >the only possible conclusion.


To GT and all fellow Listmembers,

GT, thanks for posting the meaningful quotes above. I also thank
everyone else who have posted their sentiments. I also am
horrified at this tragedy to all humanity. I am in a deep shock
state. I hope that out of this tragedy all people draw closer
together with deeper thinking and with a resolve to have a more
peaceful, tolerant, and cooperating world.

I've been on this List since near its beginning and I want to
give Errol special thanks for the message you posted and for
your years of tireless work trying to help us help each other to
answer our many questions regarding the UFO enigma.

A while back I coined the term Listerions. I didn't mean we were
weirdos (even though I am) but ideally as a collegial group of
people working together to learn more in this corner of UFOdom.
It sounds good to me. Use it as you wish.

All along I have hoped for more debate of evidence and facts with
less time getting caught up in personal squabbles. In many ways
this List seems to me to get better in that regard over time, like
a fine wine.

I hope we can remember to leave our bitter tannins outside, try to
keep our minds propped open, and produce a more professional
(whatever that may mean to you) bouquet of a shared investigation,
a good vintage, Let's not forget to keep our good hearts in the
process. That's my wish on this list, fellow Listerions.

As for this world tragedy I can only think of the first words of
the Movietone announcer at the crash of the Hindenburg. "Oh the
humanity"!

Maybe out of this darkness we can evolve and act more like
humanity.


Josh Goldstein












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                             PayPal Relief Fund

From: Anthony Chippendale <anthonyc@ufon.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:27:34 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 02:08:50 -0400
Subject: PayPal Relief Fund


PayPal have opened a special donation account for you to donate
money for the relief effort. 100% of money received goes to
"National Disaster Relief Fund of the American Red Cross".
Please, whatever you can afford will be gratefully received by
them.

Please goto:

http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/relief-outside

to donate.


Anthony Chippendale








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                              Re: Black Tuesday

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 05:46:06 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 02:10:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Black Tuesday


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Black Tuesday
 >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:30:34 +0000

 >>Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:37:02 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John
 >>Subject: Black Tuesday

 >>Hello All,

 >>In a twenty-minute period we lost more lives today than in the
 >>whole of the Viet Nam war. I can see the black cloud rising up
 >>from the downtown area of Manhattan from my office window.

 >>In shock,

 >>John Velez, New York

 >John,

 >People have been inquiring about the welfare of Budd Hopkins and
 >Greg Sandow, both of whom live in lower Manhattan. Please keep
 >us informed if you learn anything.


Hello Dick:

I relayed a query from "wwweber" who asked about Greg Sandow.
He got thru, and got back to me.

Greg and his wife are fine. No word on Budd yet.


Best

- Larry Hatch








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                            Re: Tragedy In The US

From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:47:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 02:15:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Tragedy In The US


 >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:26:57 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Tragedy In The US

 >Out of all of us, the one who lives closest to 'ground zero' is
 >Linda. Her apartment building is on the East side just blocks
 >away from the disaster. I've been calling her since yesterday
 >but her phone has been 'busy' the whole time. I don't know if
 >she's taken it off the hook intentionally or if there are simply
 >problems with the phone lines downtown (likely) but at least the
 >line is alive.


Hi John, All -

The phone lines have been erratic, to be sure. To hopefully shed
a little bit of light on it, my wife and I have been trying for
24 hours to telephone our apartment on the Lower East Side, and
several of our friends in the apartment building, only to
receive either a dead line or a busy signal. Fortunately, we've
been able to confirm with our friends via email that they are
all right and that the building is still standing.

Likewise, we've had very "spotty" communication with relatives
in SoHo and Staten Island - we can get through on the phone
roughly 1 in 20 tries, the rest are either busy signals or dead
connections.

My wife and I (as I'm sure are so many of us) are still immersed
in the long, slow, and scary process of trying to track down all
of the people who we know were or might have been in the area.
Fortunately for us, all of our closest friends and family have
been accounted for, but it is simply amazing how many others we
keep remembering and thinking of - friends we'd not talked to in
a while, people we used to work with, etc.

This is a really complicated and volatile time for us all - it's
horrifying enough to see NYC buried in rubble and in flames and
to have lost such a symbolic and recognizable skyline - but to
just not know what can or will happen next... It's almost too
much to comprehend.

One thing is for certain, the world has become a scarier and
less hospitable place in the past 24 hours. I really don't think
there's anyone in the country who won't be affected by this
tragedy - who won't have lost, at the very least a friend of a
friend... It's a terrifying and sobering thought.


  - Scott C. Carr

www.erols.com/sardonica
www.apocalypseficiton.com









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                              Re: Black Tuesday

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:37:43 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 02:23:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Black Tuesday


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Black Tuesday
 >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:30:34 +0000

 >>Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:37:02 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John
 >>Subject: Black Tuesday

 >>Hello All,

 >>In a twenty-minute period we lost more lives today than in the
 >>whole of the Viet Nam war. I can see the black cloud rising up
 >>from the downtown area of Manhattan from my office window.

 >>In shock,

 >>John Velez, New York

 >John,

 >People have been inquiring about the welfare of Budd Hopkins and
 >Greg Sandow, both of whom live in lower Manhattan. Please keep
 >us informed if you learn anything.


Hi Dick,

It is my understanding from a friend of Greg's and mine in the
southern US is that Greg and family are okay. I've heard nothing
of Budd Hopkins. Perhaps John Velez knows.

Don Ledger








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             "Either I'm Too Sensitive, Or Else I'm Gettin Soft"

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:27:24 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 02:29:32 -0400
Subject: "Either I'm Too Sensitive, Or Else I'm Gettin Soft"


On Tuesday afternoon I was asked to help law enforcement with
communications, which is my expertise. Positioned about 50 feet
from ground zero, in a com van, I wrote what I felt and sent it
to Jeff Rense, who published it. What was missing was an
explanation of what our eyes saw and our ears heard. It was
missing because there is no way to do so.

To those who have expressed concern for us, we are a long, long
way from the WTC, up in the northern reaches of the county of
Westchester. I was there as a volunteer. Rosie is fine. After
crying for a while, she wanted to go out and give blood. I
explained that she had MS antibodies in her blood from the
Copaxone injections she gets every night. That would not do. I
cannot either, for medical reasons (high BP). Then she wanted to
go volunteer at the hospital. "No Rosie, first, you can't even
walk, and second, I'm doing our part for the both of us." But I
can't do it there again. No more.

"Either I'm too sensitive, or else I'm gettin soft." (Dylan)

My cousin, my first cousin on Dad's side, died when tower two
went down. She managed to get out of the damned place when it
was blasted by other terrorists. But not this time. We were
close. She was my age.

If you need more, go to this URL:

http://www.rense.com/general13/breath.htm

With love for this country and a good deal of very un-Christian
hatred for the bastards who did this. May they roast for
eternity.

You assholes picked the wrong city. The wrong country. As
assholes, you would not know that. But wait. Just wait and see
what you cowards have wrought. Wait.


Jim and Rosemarie Mortellaro









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                            Re: Tragedy In The US

From: William Sawers <syntax@slingshot.co.nz>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:02:27 +1200
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 03:04:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Tragedy In The US


 >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:26:57 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Tragedy In The US

 >>Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:17:16 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Tragedy In The US


G'day John,

Xstatic to hear that you and your wife are OK!.

Words still cannot express the shock _still_ unfolding.

Feelings range from numbed disbelief to horrifying anger and
hatred I never thought I'd feel and then on to depresion at the
state of man's inhumanity over such an intangible as religion.

Thank you for your calm sanity

Warmest Regards from Downunder

Take Care

William










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                             Suicide Terrorists

From: Marty Murray <mmurray31@home.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 00:10:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 03:05:36 -0400
Subject: Suicide Terrorists


Posted to another List yesterday, but the thoughts remain the
same.

I pray for all the many souls who have lost their lives today,
those who have lost loved ones, those who are injured, and may
the ones who did this rot in hell for eternity.


Take care,

Marty








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                 Why I Love My Country (USA) As Stated By A

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 00:15:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 03:25:28 -0400
Subject: Why I Love My Country (USA) As Stated By A


Hi All,

I've been having a couple of off-List (private) discussions with
some friends about all that's transpired here in the US. Damn if
it didn't take a Canadian to refresh in my mind why I love my
country so. And... to remind me why I love my Canadian friends
so. Starting with the 'Hairy One' that runs this List, to Mike
Woods, Don Ledger, Furry Furlotte, Michelle Deschamps, Victor
Vigianni, Nick Balaskas, Scott Robbins, Sue Kovios, Cathy
(Mother-trucker) on and on and on. Every one a 'stand up'
individual, sincere, and _loyal_ friend. (Not to mention what a
bunch of genuine characters they all are.) :)

----------------------------------------------------------------

Hi John,

This piece was written years ago by a famous Canadian
broadcaster - a hard bitten radio host in Toronto named Gordon
Sinclair. It was forwarded to me as a pilot by an American pilot
as part of an Aviation List.

Use it as you wish.

Don

***************

"LET'S BE PERSONAL"
Broadcast June 5, 1973
CFRB 1010, Toronto, Ontario

Topic: "The Americans"

The United States dollar took another pounding on German, French
and British exchanges this morning, hitting the lowest point
ever known in West Germany. It has declined there by 41% since
1971 and this Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the
Americans as the most generous and possibly the
least-appreciated people in all the earth.

As long as sixty years ago, when I first started to read
newspapers, I read of floods on the Yellow River and the
Yangtze. Who rushed in with men and money to help? The Americans
did.

They have helped control floods on the Nile, the Amazon, the
Ganges and the Niger. Today, the rich bottom land of the
Misssissippi is under water and no foreign land has sent a
dollar to help. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain
and Italy, were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans
who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in
debts. None of those countries is today paying even the interest
on its remaining debts to the United States.

When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the
Americans who propped it up and their reward was to be insulted
and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When distant cities are hit by earthquakes, it is the United
States that hurries into help... Managua Nicaragua is one of the
most recent examples. So far this spring, 59 American
communities have been flattened by tornadoes. Nobody has helped.

The Marshall Plan .. the Truman Policy .. all pumped billions
upon billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now,
newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent
war-mongering Americans.

I'd like to see one of those countries that is gloating over the
erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplanes.

Come on... let's hear it! Does any other country in the world
have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tristar
or the Douglas 107? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all
international lines except Russia fly American planes? Why does
no other land on earth even consider putting a man or women on
the moon?

You talk about Japanese technocracy and you get radios. You talk
about German technocracy and you get automobiles. You talk about
American technocracy and you find men on the moon, not once, but
several times... and safely home again. You talk about scandals
and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for
everyone to look at. Even the draft dodgers are not pursued and
hounded. They are here on our streets, most of them... unless
they are breaking Canadian laws .. are getting American dollars
from Ma and Pa at home to spend here.

When the Americans get out of this bind... as they will... who
could blame them if they said 'the hell with the rest of the
world'. Let someone else buy the Israel bonds, Let someone else
build or repair foreign dams or design foreign buildings that
won't shake apart in earthquakes.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking
down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When
the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke,
nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can
name to you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of
other people in trouble.

Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the
Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even
during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbours have faced it alone and I am one Canadian who is
damned tired of hearing them kicked around. They will come out
of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are
entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over
their present troubles.

I hope Canada is not one of these. But there are many smug,
self-righteous Canadians. And finally, the American Red Cross
was told at its 48th Annual meeting in New Orleans this morning
that it was broke.

This year's disasters... with the year less than half-over - has
taken it all and nobody...but nobody... has helped.

ORIGINAL SCRIPT AND AUDIO
COURTESY STANDARD BROADCASTING CORPORATION LTD.

(c) 1973 BY GORDON SINCLAIR

*****************

I know it won't be Canada, John. Gordon Sinclair speaks for us
all. Right now we've got paramedics and medical peoples ready to
come to New York at a moment's notice. Blood is being given
freely here for the use of the medical facilities in New York
and Washington. Troops are on high alert, jets are in the air,
ships are offshore and ready-aye-ready. Homes have been opened
all over this country to accommodate stranded international
flight passenger, many of them American. as one American woman
put it tonight on the evening news, "We're being spoiled
rotten".

Don

*****************

Thanks for picking my head up a bit Don. We've all been feeling
the shot to the testicles we've taken. Hopefully like the good
men and women that we are, with nothing but "Justice" as our
goal, we will all stand together and fight for what is right in
a -fair- and humane fashion. In a way that the whole world can
respect and admire us for.

For Wendy Conners:

*Not for "Blood" Wendy. But for "Justice!" I understand your
anger. I feel it too. But if we simply give in to our own animal
nature and go after "blood" then we are no better than than the
thing we seek to correct. And, if _we_ don't begin to cop to and
address some of the 'causes' of all the hatred that is aimed at
us in the world; (as demonstrated by these _Animals_;) then we
are doomed to suffer repeat performances in the future. I hope
that while we're out there getting our 'pound of flesh' that we
can all actualize the great and high values/principles that
we're all supposed to stand for. Having the biggest "Stick" on
the block isn't what makes us Great. I like to think that that
isn't what we're all about. That we're above that.

Thanx for the note Don. Speaking as a deeply wounded American, I
needed the reminder (shot in the arm) just about now. :) I'd
just as soon stand in harm's way with a Canadian at my side as I
would any fellow American. Mike Woods is ready to lie about his
age just so he can enlist to help us fight back! ;)

You guys (my Canuck buddies,) are the _best_. Bar none.

Regards,

John Velez



  A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
  www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
  johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
   "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."








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                                 US Tragedy

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 05:23:06 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 03:26:59 -0400
Subject: US Tragedy


Dear Friends, Colleagues, across the USA..

I express my heart felt feelings to everyone affected in this
tragedy, I recently lost a brother, and I feel your pain. I
cannot put the words to my feelings on this attack on humanity.


Roy Hale










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                            My Way To Say It.....

From: David Furlotte <furry@nobelmed.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 00:34:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 03:30:01 -0400
Subject: My Way To Say It.....


It was the beginning of a beautiful day in New York City. The
sky was a soft baby blue with the bright ball of the sun hanging
in the sky as though it were placed there just for the benefit
of New Yorkers. The same bright sun that made the twin
skyscraping towers of the World Trade Center gleam for all the
world to see also made it easy for the cowards to see their
targets from miles away. It was early in the day with an average
workday beginning either at 8 or 9 o'clock for most people. Many
of the thousands of men and women were already in their climate
controlled offices. Some were hard at work, while others were
enjoying coffee and the occasional breakfast treat at their desk
before starting their day. Some were in the cafeterias or
sneaking a cigarette before heading up to their offices or work
areas. But NONE of them were preparing for the unthinkable. None
of them were getting ready to die and none of them were saying
goodbye to loved ones. that would come later.

At 8:48 a.m. on a beautiful September day, a declaration of war
was made by a group of cowards that believe in an oxymoron, a
holy war. Their beliefs, their reasons, their motives matter not
a whit because what matters is what they did. They knowingly and
willfully committed a crime against all human beings. They took
the lives of innocent men, women, and children. They took those
lives in the most heinous and cowardly manner possible. They
took those lives without warning and without conscience. They
are NOT warriors, they are NOT soldiers, and they do not even
deserve to be referred to as human. They are animals that are
diseased and a threat, and as all dangerous animals that are
sick, they need to be hunted down and put down for the good and
safety of us all.

In the course of less time than it takes to fly from Boston to
San Francisco, the lives of thousands of people changed.
Children were left without fathers or mothers. Some were
orphaned and men and women were left without spouses, brothers,
sisters and friends. The victims suffered in a myriad of ways
that no human being should ever have to deal with. No death row
prisoner ever faced a tougher sentence. Men and women were
trapped on teetering structures with flames and smoke blocking
their escape. Some of them jumped hundreds of feet to their
deaths rather than face being burned alive. Others held out,
praying and hoping for rescue only to die horribly as their
world fell away from them and they plunged to their deaths along
with the structures that they had worked in and felt safe
inside.

The horror and the death did not stop with the innocent ones
inside the towers or aboard the aircraft. In continued with the
brave, firefighters, police officers and emergency medical
personnel who were struggling to do their jobs as the world fell
down upon them, crushing them beneath concrete, steel and glass.

Even this toll in carnage was not enough for them. They wanted
still more blood on their hands as they crashed yet another
hi-jacked jet into the Pentagon building and still more as
another jet that they tried to guide like a bomb was wrestled
back and crashed into a field, killing the innocent people along
with the animals. September 11, 2001 is not a day that will live
in infamy, it will be remembered as the day a world wept.

Lest We Forget









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                      National UFO Conference Cancelled

From: SMiles Lewis <smiles@elfis.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:46:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:42:17 -0400
Subject: National UFO Conference Cancelled


Hello from Austin Texas,

It is with much sadness and regret that we must cancel this
weekend's scheduled 38th National UFO Conference.

The recent traumatic terrorist attacks against the people of
this country have too dramaticly changed the availability of
flights for both NUFOC speakers and attendees.

The collective mood of the Nation is very somber right now and
the issue of UFOs seems impossible to focus upon in the
immediate future.

It is unclear as to when we might be able to reschedule this
event.

Please accept our deepest apologies. We will do whatever we can
to provide refunds to those who have preregistered for this
event.

Thank you for your understanding.


Miles Lewis










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                        The Passing Of Gabriel Green

From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:03:12 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:11:43 -0400
Subject: The Passing Of Gabriel Green


I would also like to express my disgust for the pointless act of
terrorism, and offer my condolences to anyone that has been
affected by it.

Regards, Joe

-----

From: William Hamilton

Notice: Gabriel Green knew me since I was a teenager. He was one
of the early contactees who had seen one of the bell-shaped
scout ships within 100 yards.

He also claimed that a man from a planet in Alpha Centauri had
paid him a visit.

Many contactees were ridiculed for their stories and Gabe was no
exception, but he ignored the ridicule and went on to establish
a rare relationship with numerous other contactees whose stories
he documented in his published Flying Saucers newletter. Gabe
was always seen at the Giant Rock spacecraft conventions with
his wife. After the death of his beloved wife, he moved to Yucca
Valley to pursue his interests in contactees in the peace of the
high desert where UFOs were frequently seen. Gabe was a great
host and frequently entertained visitors in his home where he
had a vast collection of saucer books for sale along with some
rare pamphlets from the early era.

Gabe will be sorely missed by his friends. He always believed in
reincarnation and, perhaps, as Ben Franklin was fond of saying,
will appear again in a new edition.

A fond farewell to you Gabe,

Sincerely,

Bill Hamilton


----- Original Message -----

From: Dex and Shirley
To: skyopen@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 11:29 PM
Subject: An Announcement

Gabriel Green is Founder-President of the Amalgamated Flying
Saucer Clubs of America - AFSCA, in Yucca Valley, California.

He died today. On behalf of Gabriel Green and his personal
contribution to me, I was able to dedicate a website in honor of
his personal friends and their Contacts with people from other
worlds.

Thank You Gabriel Green. You will be greatly missed.

Dex

--- Dex and Shirley

--- http://home.earthlink.net/~dexxa

-- Secret of the Saucers Website

SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL, INC. (A Non-Profit Organization)
"What could be stranger than the truth?"

Skywatch International Inc. and this list service are not
responsible for content or authenticity of posts. Opinions
expressed on this list are the property of the posters and do
not reflect the official position of Skywatch International.

Visit the Skywatch International Inc. website!

http://www.skywatch-international.org

-----------------------------------------------








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                               Flying Objects

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Weds, 11 Sep 2001 23:55:31 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:20:51 -0400
Subject: Flying Objects


All fellow Listerions,

We have just seen the worst kind of unidentified flying objects.

Ironically, just as I typed the previous sentence the CNN
commentator suddenly asked "what is the unidentified single
engine private plane that just flew the length of Manhattan,
since there is no flight allowed"? It looks like a Cessna to me.

Isn't Manhattan within controlled airspace? The plane was low
enough to be legal under normal conditions. I don't know if
Manhattan has special low altitude restrictions. I never flew in
that area. Who was that? Was it legal? A mystery.

Having been a pilot, the use of those airliners as weapons in
yesterday's attacks especially sickens me. Anyone else who has
been a pilot probably feels the same way, knowing the feeling.

Due to medical problems I haven't been able to keep my pilot's
certificate active in recent years. I am puzzled about a few
things regarding yesterday's deadly flights. Maybe someone else
on the list who is a pilot knows more about the details and is
more up to date with the FARs.

Those four planes were on approved flight paths and had filed
their normal flight plans. They had transponders and could be
tracked continuously on their flight paths. What I am not clear
about is what kind of communications took place when the
airliners were hijacked. Yesterday on TV I heard that the pilot
of the plane that crashed into the Pentagon requested clearance
to divert from his flight path to head to Washington. You
usually have to give a reason like an emrgency or something if
you are an airliner. Does anyone have any more information
regarding those communications? If proper procedures were not
followed I would think the control centers would be alarmed and
notify FAA higher officials.

What are the procedures if an airliner suddenly deviates from
its flight path and does not declare to land at the nearest
airport it could be directed to? What are the regulations
regarding what the FAA procedure is in this kind of case?
Wouldn't the control center issue an immediate alarm regarding
this irregularity? Is there a point that they would send up a
USAF fighter to check it out, similar to someone entering a
restricted airspace without clearance? Even if the hijackers
followed normal radio procedures, wouldn't the FAA be
immediately suspicious about the request for a different flight
path? I've been a military and a general aviation pilot and I'd
like to know how soon after the first plane made erratic
deviations that an alarm was put out. How soon after the other
planes deviated?

I'm still shocked and glued to the tube. I don't have the energy
to check the skinny on pilot websites.


Thanks,

Josh










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               Re: ET Politics In Clinton White House - Part 4

From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
Date: 10 Sep 2001 13:31:32 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:26:02 -0400
Subject: Re: ET Politics In Clinton White House - Part 4


 >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 11:40:44 -0400
 >From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: ET Politics In Clinton White House - Part 4 - Truncated

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: 9 Sep 2001 19:01:48 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: ET Politics In Clinton White House - Part 4

 >>Extraterrestrial Politics in the Clinton White House: White
 >>House Interest - Part 4

 ><snip>

 >>Rockefeller wrote Graham that he would like Graham to co-sign a
 >>letter to the President "requesting that he review the present
 >>secret classification of government information pertaining to
 >>UFOs and related phenomena." Rockefeller told Graham in his
 >>letter that he was considering Maurice Strong, Perez de Cuellar,
 >>and ex-President Jimmy Carter as other possible signatories to
 >>the letter.

 >Perez de Cuellar?!? Did Larry actually broach the subject with
 >the former Sec. Gen.? Was Rockefeller able to verify that de
 >Cuellar has first-hand knowledge about UFOs? Does this verify
 >aspects of the Napolitano case or is there some other reason de
 >Cuellar would have an interest in UFOs?

 >And how do you know Rockefeller discussed this with Rev Graham?

The letter to Graham from Rockefeller, and the Graham's response
are part of the 991 pages released by Clinton's OSTP. I can send
a jpg scan to anyone who wants to see the letters.

There is no confirmation if De Cuellar was contacted.
Rockefeller simply says he is considering them as co-signers
leaving the impression they were contacted.


Grant









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                     Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Oberg

From: James Oberg <JamesOberg@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:59:53 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:26:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Oberg


 >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:19:54 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That

 >>From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 08:14:17 EDT
 >>Subject: Nazi UFOs And All That
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >I wonder how many Americans realise that man was put on the moon
 >by the same man the built the V2?

Right, they did two favors for the world -- bankrupted Nazi
Germany on an idiotic inefficient war machine, that otherwise
the resources for it would have prolonged the war another six
months at least, and second, returned to their childhood ideals
to open the solar system to huamnity. Show some gratitude!!










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   Sep > Sep 13

                             The Truth Is Here!

From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:21:04 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:28:35 -0400
Subject: The Truth Is Here!


Pilgrims,

Two new items of possible interest may be found at:

http://www.flyingsaucery.com

(look in the UFO Brigantia downloads section)

The Northumbrian UFO Crash of 1969 (MOD documents on this case)

http://www.flyingsaucery.com/files/The%201969%20Northumbrian%20UFO%20Crash.doc

and

No Kidding This Time. My Flying Saucer Photo Is Genuine!

UFO photographic hoaxes and the story of Alex Birch and Stephen
Darbishire

http://www.flyingsaucery.com/brigantia/home.htm

Please note that these are both original pieces of research and
investigation, offered to the UFO community by Andy Roberts and
Dave Clarke entirely for free!


Happy Trails

Andy


"You destroy people's hopes and dreams, attack their beliefs,
bring them down and use every low tactic at your disposal."
Tim Matthews, July 2000









   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 13

                     UFO Sightings OZ file - 06.Sep.2001

From: Diane Harrison - AUFORN <auforn@Ehome.net.au>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 07:35:49 +1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:35:10 -0400
Subject: UFO Sightings OZ file - 06.Sep.2001


UFO Sightings OZ file 06.09.2001

Thank you to all that have contributed to
these reports.
__________________________________

UFO Sighting Balgowlah-north Shore NSW

1800 Callin Code: 001321 14.04.2001

Date: 07.04.2001
Day: Saturday
Time Reported: 8:00pm
Location: Balgowlah-north shore
Reportee: E
Report given to nearest rep: UFO Society WS

Report:

On 7th April 2001 around 8:00pm, E walked to her lounge room
window to pull in the curtains when she noticed unusual lights
emitting from behind a white narrow, translucent cloud. The
strange anomaly appeared northeast above the ocean at a high
altitude.

The witness described the white lights as one large (like a
distant car headlight) and several smaller ones grouped together
on the left hand side of the primary light. She collected a pair
of binoculars to obtain a closer view. As E tried to align her
binoculars it was too late. The anomaly had vanished.

The event only lasted a few seconds. E also mentioned a sighting
she had around 5:00am late last year (could not recall the exact
month) when a �round� object was seen heading north/northeast
over the ocean at an incredible speed.

Regards Attila Director UFOSWS affiliated AUFORN
______________________________________

UFO Sighting Gorokan NSW

1800 Callin Code: 001362 08.05.2001

Date: 27.04.2001-29.05.2001
Day: Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday.
Time Reported: 8:30pm
Location: Gorokan
Reportee: P
Report given to nearest rep: UFO Society WS


Message:

The sightings occurred over three nights from 27th April 2001 to
29th April 2001 between the hours of 8:30pm and 10:30pm.

P first had the encounter when he peered outside his bedroom
window and discovered five luminous objects hovering in the
distance.

As he went outside, he noticed that one of the objects seemed
closer than the others, yet still quite a distance away (P�s
estimate was between 1-2 kilometres northwest).

There was a thick cloud barrier and the four other objects
appeared to shift in and out of the haze. However, the closest
object hovered just below the clouds therefore giving P a much
clearer view of the strange anomaly.

He described the object as a metallic dome with three different
lights spinning from under its rim (red, orange and green) thus
reflecting onto its surface.

P said that he also noticed that the object had some kind of
wing system on its side. What made the encounter even more
bizarre was the unusual fast moving sparks or �pins of light�
produced by the object-some seemed to orbit the primary object
and return to it while others disappeared into the distance.

Peter believes that the anomaly remained visible for around two
hours before fading away into the clouds towards Tuggerah Lake.
This incident repeated itself over three nights without any
noise being produced by the anomaly.

Regards Attila Director UFOSWS affiliated AUFORN
________________________________________

UFO Sighting Corrimal NSW

1800 Callin Code: 001360 11.05.2001

Date: 23.04.2001
Day: Monday
Time Reported:
Location: Corrimal NSW
Reportee: Michelle
Report given to nearest rep: UFO Society WS


Message:

On 23rd April, around 8:00pm, Michelle and her sister were
taking a walk in the streets of Corrimal (10 kilometres north of
Wollongong) when she glanced up into the sky to discover eight
dull-orange lights travelling in a �V� formation.

Their sizes were somewhat larger than the background stars. She
said that the lights were travelling from the city (N-NW) and
heading southeast at conventional aircraft speed. Michelle and
her sister were facing towards the ocean at the time of the
sighting. She also noted that the �V� formation was moving side
ways instead of apex first!

�My sister and I take a walk each night,� Michelle said, � and
watch the planes fly over head. But what we saw that evening was
not a plane.�

The anomaly or anomalies were visible for a minute before fading
away.

Regards Attila Director UFOSWS affiliated AUFORN

__________________________________________

UFO Sighting Long Reef incident New South Wales

Hi all,

Just a brief thank you for your assistance. Also, Bill asked me
to summarize the Long Reef situation that occurred on 26th June.
I must admit that the sighting was too incredible for me to be
forthcoming. For weeks I dwelled on it not telling anyone
(except my wife and immediate colleagues).

The following report was constructed by a colleague who was with
me at the time of the sighting. I will not disclose his name at
this point. I think you will appreciate this event more from
another persons point of view. Regards

Attila

---

Field trip to Collaroy Tuesday 26th June 2001

The evening started with only 2 members attending. Attila and T.

I met up with Attila in the Golf club car park as arranged at
1800. Being well prepared for a chilly night ahead on the coast.
Warm clothing & flask of coffee.

We walked up the hill to the lookout which faces North towards
Avalon & Palm Beach. After a few minutes we had set-up camp so
to speak on the other side of the barriers. Very naughty.

The night started quietly with the usual planes on their
respective flight paths. A couple of shooting stars where seen a
little while later high in the sky. The prelude before the storm
in no uncertain terms. An orange flash well above the Avalon
area was noted. Immediately after that Attila spotted coming
over our heads from east to west what Attila described as a
fireball. I only caught a glimpse in the corner of my eye of
something orange as I turned around.

Within seconds the fun started. An orange ball towards the North
was spotted hovering over the sea. Lit up with the regular beam
of the Palm Beach lighthouse. Binoculars & Attila�s Telescope
where quickly trained onto the object. A reflection of the very
bright glow was clearly seen on the waves. In front of our eyes
it just disappeared into the murky depths, just vanished. Attila
took some photos of the object, which I suppose, at arms length
about the size of a pea. We did not have much time to
congratulate ourselves before it reappeared in about the same
spot, but this time it was slowly hovering towards us. Once
again the reflection was seen on the water�s surface. Getting
bigger as it was getting closer. A Photo or two was taken. Again
with no warning it just disappeared into the sea.

We both screamed in delight of witnessing such an occasion.

This was short lived. At approx 2130 a large very bright orange
glow was seen above the trees towards the eastern side of the
point. Even more remarkable was the fact that this glow was in
the heart of a Triangle Upturned. Smaller very dim lights at the
peripheral extremes could be seen. The planes, which had been
flying over all night, stopped. Several helicopters were seen
going towards the objects position, but never got there. They
turned around and flew away.A magnificent sight.

Attila raced for some of the equipment and hotfooted to the
eastern end of Long Reef Point. I stayed with the remainder of
our stuff and watched in awl the ship. It moved steadily down &
south to settle base down (I think) just above the water & in
clear view of me through a cutting in the trees.

On Attila�s return we packed up & repositioned ourselves further
on the point. This position left us exposed to the elements, but
who cares. Seeing this object we forgot all the woes.

The view magnified was terrific. It looked like one large item,
sausage shape, hovering above the water with a similar shape &
size as its reflection. It shimmered as if a heat haze was
around it. The object was also rotating.

Attila took some more photos, but in the excitement ran out of
film. Air traffic control was contacted and asked if anything
thing had happened or shown up on radar. Deny, Deny, Deny was
the outcome with them starting to give Attila the 1800 number.

A large ship was spotted sailing south in the channel towards
Sydney. This passed in front of the glow. No way could this glow
have been missed. With that, Attila spoke to the coast guard.
Asking similar questions to that of the airport. It was stated
that calls from Narrabeen had been received, asking if a ship
was on fire. It was much later on our leaving that we noticed
the very top of the glow was the only thing visible from the
coast.

I don�t know why, but every so often I looked at my watch &
called out the time. After about an hour the object changed
shape. This time two smaller balls appeared to the side of the
main core. Spinning & shimmering.

Two hours passed & it was still there. Position changing a
little to the north. Once again it mutated into more pieces. The
main core & one below, two to the right side by side, & another
two top to bottom to the right of them. All glowing orange,
rotating & shimmering, clear visible through the telescope.

With the naked eye it looked like one solid object. Occasionally
a small right light was seen on the top towards the right.

Also very strange, shooting up from the object towards the clear
night sky, I saw very fast shafts of light. The same type of
light was seen coming down from the sky into the object.

Is this the first time a communication device has been
seen?????????

Three hours had almost passed & it was still there hovering,
shimmering & rotating above the water. All planes that funnily
had by-passed this object had now stopped for the night. Clouds
started coming in over us, going towards the glow & object. A
few drops of rain had been felt. That & with Attila�s mount had
broken was a time to call it a night. Time 0030 we started to
pack up. I turned my torch at the object, which is quite bright.
Nothing happened. No response. Attila & I both felt as if it
knew we were there.

Walking down the hill we periodically turned around to see if it
followed, but no the glow just got smaller behind the curvature
of the earth. It just kept on drawing us to look at it. Bundling
into Attila�s car we quickly drove back up the hill. Hoping for
a response I suppose or even contact.

By now the wind was also whipping up. It was funny to note that
in the car park it was dry, as was the long journey home. END OF
REPORT

 From Attila Director UFOSWS affiliated AUFORN
____________________________________

UFO Sighting Wollongong New South Wales

1800 Call in Code: 01668 06.08.2001

Date: 05.08.2001
Day: Sunday
Time Reported: 1.30am
Location: Wollongong region
Reportee: B
Report given to nearest rep: UFO Society WS


Report:

B lives in a quite neighbourhood on the outskirts of Wollongong.
One early morning around 1.30am, B and her husband were awakened
by a distressed neighbour knocking on their door.

When she answered, B found her neighbour (call in code 01669)
full of commotion. She was pointing at a bright red light up in
the southwestern sky. The couple decided to join their
neighbour, who had a few drinks that evening, and watched the
bright object for a while. Apparently the object was seen to
zigzag occasionally in a small field.

Around an hour later, B and her husband were feeling a little
exhausted and decided to rest their tired souls . The following
day B met up with the neighbours. Apparently they were up
watching the bright light until 6.30am. The neighbour claimed
that the object eventually shot across the sky towards the east
and disappeared. B admitted that the final version of the story
was a little far fetched (which may have been induced by the
heavy consumption of a liquid substance.

The bright red light in the southwestern sky that was slowly
descending over a long period of time was in fact the planet
Mars. The zigzag effect as we all know was due to scintillation.
B felt quite happy with the response and said, �I thought it was
something like that�.

Regards Attila Director UFOSWS affiliated AUFORN
___________________________________

CE4 - CE5 Report ? NSW

1800 Callin Code: 01662 4.8.01 NSW
Date: 4.8.01
Day: Satruday
Time Reported: 8.19
Location: NSW
Reportee: Ty
Report given to nearest rep: UFO Society WS

Report:

Ty; he's a disabled pensioner who claims that ETs appear in his
house, around his garden and just about everywhere since 1974 in
forms of entities. "They just seem to materialize," he says.
Ty's worked around a bit in his younger years as a fork lift
driver, gardener, cleaner. Anywhere he went, they just seemed to
appear!

He believes that these ETs are sending messages through
television and radio broad casts. He can pick out certain
phrases from programs and writes them down. Apparently he has
collected around 13,000 phrases that display a certain message.

He claims that significant messages/phrases were expressed
in the UFO Diaries television series. I asked Ty if he reads
literature and explores the world of UFOs through videos and
other available programs. After telling me that he reads a lot
of Arthur C. Clerk novels and an abbott viewer of the UFO
Diaries.

Regards Attila Director UFOSWS affiliated AUFORN
____________________________________

UFO Sighting Beaudesert QLD (description of a meteorite?)

Big bright florescent Green fire ball seen over
the Brisbane area

Time: 11.32 am
Sunday 2.09.2001
Size: close to 3 mils at arms length
Tail: close to 10 cm long at arms length
Disappeared behind clouds.
Direction: looking North from the south of Beaudesert
Duration: 2-3 seconds

Hi Folks

Rob and I have just been out watching a formation of 6 twin
engine prop planes flying in a V formation heading out to sea in
a North easterly direction over Mt Tamborine.

To our amazement just to the North of these planes appeared a
big bright florescent green fire ball "which fell from the sky"
it left a massive green and white tail behind it. WOW did anyone
else see it.??

--

Regards Diane Harrison National Director of
The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director
__________________________________

UFO Sighting Daisy Hill Queensland (description of a meteorite?)

Follow up 1800 Callin Code: 01713 2.9.01 Qld

Date: 2.9.01
Day: Sunday
Time Reported: 5pm
Location: Brisbane
Reportee: Dave
Report given to nearest rep: Jan Stone

Report:

Location: Daisy Hill
Date and time of sighting. Sunday 2.9.01
aprox 11.35am Dave and his family were traveling toward Daisy
Hill Forest from the Pacific Highway when they saw what looked
like a falling star. David said he thought he could see a metal
colour in the object, he said it seemed to fall into the Daisy
Hill Forest. He said it had a Blue tail on it. It was in the
East position right in front of them.

End Report Regards Jan AUFORN Director QLD
____________________________________

UFO Sighting Atkinson Dam QLD ( description of a meteorite?)

Follow up 1800 Callin Code: 01712 2.9.01 Qld

Date: 2.9.01
Day: Sunday
Time Reported: 11.35am
Location: Coominya
Reportee: Mike
Report given to nearest rep: Jan Stone
Tel:

Report:

At around 11.35am This morning (2.9.01) at Atkinson Dam on the
road between Gatton and Esk, Mike and his family saw what looked
like a shooting star with a long greenish/blue tail behind it.
It was in the East/North/East position, looked like it was
towards North,East side of Brisbane. Went out just before it hit
the ground. He wanted to know if anyone else saw it. Please read
my next report for similar sighting (report 01713)

End Report Regards Jan AUFORN QLD Director

~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi Diane, list

Further to your sighting Diane.

Today (Sunday 2.9.01) we received 3 reports They were from
Enoggera in Brisbane, Bunya Mountains 200 klms west of Brisbane
and Stanthorpe 200 klms south-west of Brisbane. All reports seem
to relate to the same object.

All were seen between 11.30 and 11.35 am. the different
descriptions we received were -

an orange burning light with a blue green tail a comet, white
light with tail a large flare with a ball at the end

The witnesses from Enoggera and Stanthorpe both reported looking
E/NE and the one from Bunya Mountains reported looking East when
they saw the object.

The object was reported to be very large and extremely bright
with descriptions ranging from "brighter than a mirror
reflecting the sun" to "like a welding flash". All witnesses
were extremely impressed with the size all stating it was larger
than their thumbnail at arm's length. (that's big!)

All witnesses reported the light was coming down to the ground
at a slight angle to the North.They also reported it affected
their eyes, blinded, dazzled and hurt their eyes. Two of the
witnesses lost it behind trees and a hill, the other reported it
just fizzling out. All only saw it for less than 5 seconds. No
noise was heard at the time.

After some calculations we have estimated the object to have
come down about 200 klms west of Maroochydore out at sea. So far
it seems to fit the description of a meteorite, except no one
reported any noise at the time. However taking the distance into
consideration no one should have heard anything before 5 minutes
duration, but should have heard something in the 5 to 20 minute
range after the sighting. Probably by that time they were on the
phone to me so possibly wouldn't have noticed it.

We contacted the Channel 7, 9 and 10 TV stations. Channel 7 was
the only aware of it and were looking into it.

Sheryl for UFOR Queensland
_____________________________

UFO Sighting Murray River New South Wales

Name of reportee: Paul E Day: 5th September and 28th August
Time: 7.00 to 7.15 PM both nights Location: Barham NSW 50 mtrs
from the Murray river near Vic border Given to Investigator:
Doug Moffett Report:

On the evening of the 28th of August Paul, his girlfriend and
another friend were outside smoking and stargazing when they
noticed 2 dim stars zig zagging across and around a near full
moon for approx 15 minutes before travelling away from them.

On the 5th of September whilst again smoking and stargazing,
Paul, alone this time, noticed a dim star that then became a
bright star in the sky. The bright star then dimmed before
changing speed like a shooting star with a blue/white tail,
before dimming and then turning bright red before disappearing.

The object performed several zig zags in the sky over approx 30
to 40 cms apparent length with height variation of plus or minus
10cms vertically giving a 20cm approx apparent length from top
to bottom of the zig zag before disappearing and going very dim.
The object on the 5th of September zig zagged for approx 5
minutes before slowly moving away from the viewer toward space.
The objects on the 28th August zig zagged for most of the 15
minute duration of the sighting. Both objects appeared very high
in altitude to the observer, much higher than a plane. I have no
terrestrial explanation for these sightings at this time.


Doug Moffett AUFORN State Director NSW UFO Research NSW
Sightings Officer

____________________________________

UFO Sighting Queensland

Follow up Callin Code: 01699 23.8.01 QLD.
Date: 21.08.01
Day: Tuesday
Time Reported: 9.50 am
Location: QLD
Reportee: Mr X
Director, Rep : Jan


Report:

Mr X had a dream the night after the crop circles appeared on
Tuesday 21st August 2001. 420 of the circles. Mr X says he knows
the message that the crop circles are trying to tell us and this
is his theory( in his own words):

Channel 10 News Tuesday 21/8/01 show 420 circles appeared
overnight in a wheat field UK all circles appearing to be
linked. Message from outer space or a reminder?.

If each circle = 1 month divide by 420 X 12 = 35 years add 35
years to 2001 and you get 2036

On the news in 1994/5 it was reported that an asteroid belt was
going to collide with Earth in the year 2036. Which corresponds
with the Wheat field waning and makes earths destruction on or
about 21.8.2036 if nothing is done about it!

The way I read this warning is the people from space are willing
to help Earth divert this complete destruction if we ask them,
but we have to ask because it is probably against their beliefs
to interfere with another planet unless requested.

Now that I have written this it looks and sounds silly, but this
is what I dreamed on the night of, 21/8/01 it just came to me
out of the blue and I remembered the news and broadcast in
1994/5.

Could this be true?

Could you please put this out on the list for others to comment.

~~~~~~

End of this report but please read on.

Mr X has asked me to forward your reply's to him, he has not got
a computer, so I will have to print them out and post to him.
All comments welcome. Mr X is a American Gentleman from Texas.
He had had many sighting in the past as a child, please read on
for his experience.

Sighting one
Age 7. In about 1945 - Oakland California. Daytime -
In back yard, heard noise and looked up. Air force testing B-52
Bomber, saw a white streak fly across the sky and then a
fireball and the B52 exploded. A single parachute shot from the
craft, so I thought the pilot must have got out.

Sighting Two
1948 Oakland California, approx 0600. Going to do my paper round
on my bike, taking, shortcut through rim of large gravel pit,
when suddenly a large object flew up from center and disappeared
into the sky, this seemed to pull the bike from under me, I fell
off the bike, the bike disappeared, I suffered cuts and bruises,
I was almost knocked out. My bike was never found.

Sighting Three
1951 Milton, Florida. Navel Air Base, daytime, Hiking in woods,
and laid down in clearing for a rest, saw strange formation of
thunder clouds in the sky, suddenly felt warm and relaxed and
went to sleep, waking up just at sunset, got into trouble for
being late for diner.

Sighting Four
1956 Night, Nr Britany? France, standing guard duty where supply
ships were being off loaded offshore. Clear night, Golden Moon,
which I thought was reflecting off the water, then realized the
reflection was moving. Watched it disappear (about 4 minutes).

Sighting Five
1997 Labrador, Queensland. Night of October on or about 14th.
Walking to Pizza hut with daughter to celebrate her birthday. We
had just crossed the footbridge where coast guard is, My
daughter pointed up asking " what is that"? Looking up I saw a
long light blue streak shooting across the sky, more or less
above the Pizza Hut. Watched until out of sight, No noise, just
blue streak, length of sighting 10-12 seconds. End Report
Regards Jan AUFORN QLD Director
________________________________________

UFO Sighting Runaway Bay to Morningside QLD

Follow up Callin Code: 01711 31.8.01 QLD
Date: 31.8.01
Day: Friday
Time Reported: 11.33am
Location: Brisbane
Reportee: Mark
Report given to nearest rep: Jan
Tel:


REPORT Mark said he was driving home from work on Friday morning
(31.8.01) at 1.42am He was traveling from Runaway Bay to
Morningside. He was almost home, when he noticed a flash in the
clouds, he then saw (in the east) 8 lights come out of the
clouds and then disappear, then reappear again, and go into a
straight line formation. They then moved away from each other,
almost vanished and then moved back to the line position again,
then went behind a cloud. The defused lights then shone through
the clouds and were flickering. One of the lights had a red glow
around it. There was no noise. Mark stopped the car and watched
for 25 minutes, then they just went out and vanished. Mark could
not tell me the estimated size of the lights. The hight in the
sky was about that of high cloud height. Position was in the
East.

End Report Regards Jan AUFORN QLD Director

--

Regards Diane Harrison
National Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

E-Mail: auforn@Ehome.net.au
E-mail: ufologist@powerup.com.au
http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw

ADMINISTRATION:

PO Box 738
Beaudessert 4285
QLD Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
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         1800 77 22 88 Freecall
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Disclaimer: A.UFO.R.N List Owners are not responsible
for the content or misuse of this list.
However, personal insults, flaming will not be tolerated.
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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 13

             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 00:26:21 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:36:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni


 >From: David Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 18:38:01 +0100

 >Your amusing remarks simply serve to illustrate how easily you
 >can be 'taken in' by stories spun by those who you dearly _want_
 >to believe.

Dave

What you are going on about? I have explained in detail that
Nick Pope did inform me that Squadron Leader Moreland's letter
to the MOD was in the MOD file. And that's a fact that was
published in my book well before the MOD files surfaced. So Nick
Pope was certainly aware of Moreland's letter. There is no spin
here!

I have not been taken in. In fact, in almost twenty years nobody
bothered to make a written request for the letter. If anybody
was taken in, it surely was Jenny Randles who knew about
Moreland's letter but didn't bother to request it because she
heard it didn't contain much. Even Nick Redfern didn't bother to
ask for it because he was told it wasn't in the file. So, I ask
you, who was taken in, not me my friend.

 >Without realising it, you have revealed who it is who _truly_
 >hasn't a clue about how the MOD works. And you seriously
 >underestimate how easy it is to pull the wool over the eyes of
 >ufologists with long standing knowledge and experience, as Nick
 >Redfern and Jenny clearly have.

You are being very silly now. Unless you have worked at the MOD
you cannot claim to know how it works. Your bragging just makes
you look like a silly little boy who thinks he knows it all.
Some very prominent journalists have examined the Rendlesham
files and have been amazed to see how the MOD dealt with the
public, press and government officials. I'd like to pitch you
next to the big boys and see just how you cope.

 >I'm not one for making predictions, but this time can assure you
 >that very soon you will be eating your own words.

Dave, you are always making claims, but we seldom hear more
about them. I have no words to eat, everything I have explained
here, is factual. If you can't see that then you are living in
fantasy land. All that studying on fairies should not be taken
too seriously. Believing in flying lighthouses and radioactive
rabbits and pretending to be James Bond may be fun, but isn't it
time you grew up and looked at the real world.


Best wishes

Georgina








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 13

             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 01:16:40 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:38:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni


 >From: David Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 14:26:10 +0100

 >Those who have been following the ongoing debate over whether
 >Nick Pope did or *did not* see the Defence Intelligence files
 >relating to the Rendlesham Forest incident will be interested to
 >read the following, by courtesy of Jenny Randles.

What's the point of all this outdated material? Nick gave similar
interviews to most ufologists.

Here we have an historical event, the fact that for the first
time ever, the MOD has released a major UFO file, and all you
debunkers can do, is rave on about whether Nick Pope saw the
file or not. Don't you think this is all rather childish?

 >She asked specific questions relating to Rendlesham and I now
 >reproduce her transcript of that interview. I refer readers
 >specifically to paragraph 7 of the transcript where Nick states
 >unequivocably: "I've not seen the evaluation work that went on
 >the Rendlesham Forest case. There are some papers that I have
 >not seen."

If you had paid attention the MOD file you would realise that
nobody, except probably DIS, saw the evaluation. You would also
realise that there are some missing documents. So what's your
point?

 >I asked him about DSTI and DI 55 - the 'other departments where
 >the reports went to' - as I put it.  'Can you comment on whether
 >the reports actually go to these departments and what they do
 >with them?'

 >(I already knew because Ralph Noyes had happily told me this
 >and what the initials stood for - but I didnt let on to Nick,
 >of course!)

Did she really think Nick didn't know what they were? Really!

 >He said: 'I cant actually tell you what (the initials) stand
 >for, simply because thats not what we do. But what I can tell
 >you is that basically those departments - theres nothing
 >sinister or spooky about them - its simply people casting an
 >expert eye over the data and helping us in Sec AS with the
 >actual business of investigation. It really is a case of two or
 >three heads being better than one.'

Has Jenny ever thought that Nick did not want to discuss these
details with a ufologist, especially considering he was still
with the MOD. When she spoke to Noyes, was he still with the
MOD? I think not! Maybe Nick is not saying he didn't know what
they stood for, but that he could not tell her because that's
not what they do. Depends which way you read into it.

Of course Nick knew about these departments. Take a close look
at Moreland's letter. Now consider this, Nick knew about this
letter being in the file, so he must have seen the details of
where it was sent. The truth is that you guys are just trying to
debunk Nick when in fact several people in his position had to
play by the same rules.

One person who didn't have any excuse was Jenny Randles. I am
more concerned with her letters to the MOD debunking other
ufologists. Maybe it's time we pasted some of those letters for
all to see.

Nick Pope is not the traitor here.


Best wishes

Georgina Bruni

"You Can't Tell The People". The Definitive Account of the
Rendlesham Forest UFO Mystery by Georgina Bruni. Published by
Sidgwick & Jackson Available at all good book shops and on-line
at: www.amazon.co.uk Countries outside UK: www.netstoreusa.com









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   Sep > Sep 13

                            Re: Jan Aldrich Post

From: Diana Cammack <cammack@eomw.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:28:33 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:31:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Jan Aldrich Post


 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:14:49 -0400
 >Subject:

 >WBZ radio read the names of the passengers and crew of the two
 >airliners which originated at Logan Airport, Boston, and which
 >were hijacked for the terrorist attack. Due to my duties, I did
 >not hear them all, but an Australian Quantas official was among
 >the dead.

 >Also, earlier a New York Stock Exchange official said that many
 >other nationals work at the World Trade Center. People from the
 >UK, Canada, Japan, German, France worked at WTC. They had
 >nothing to do with US policy.

 >How unfortunate!

 >God Bless all the victims and their families.


Africans feel the same. Their family members will be among the
dead too. People here are sad and angry, including the muslim
community.


Diana
Malawi, Africa









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              Re: "Either I'm Too Sensitive, Or Else I'm Gettin

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:35:24 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:33:26 -0400
Subject: Re: "Either I'm Too Sensitive, Or Else I'm Gettin


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:27:24 EDT
 >Subject: "Either I'm Too Sensitive, Or Else I'm Gettin Soft"
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >My cousin, my first cousin on Dad's side, died when tower two
 >went down. She managed to get out of the damned place when it
 >was blasted by other terrorists. But not this time. We were
 >close. She was my age.

To Jim, Rosie, & the Mortellaro family,

On behalf of Margie and myself, I'd like to express our deepest
sympathy for your the senseless loss of your loved one. I lost
my mother just weeks ago and I understand the depth of the pain
you must be feeling right now. At times like these we need to
put our differences aside and comfort each other in any way that
we can.

In the end, all we have in Life is each other.

In deepest sympathy,


John & Margie Velez



                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."










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   Sep > Sep 13

                             Aftermath Of Attack

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 13 Sep 2001 07:06:29 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:37:41 -0400
Subject: Aftermath Of Attack


In the aftermath of the attack on America many are reflecting on
the meaning of life, the meaning of our way of life, and whether
we are as culpable in the act as those who terrorize us. There
are many opinions. And, except for those Palestinians in Lebanon
who seem to have rejoiced over our tragedy, most are shocked and
dismayed at the brazen act of these forces of terrorism.

Pardon me if I quote from an ancient source of wisdom, the
Dhammapada wherein Buddha is quoted as saying,


"For hate is never conquered by hate.
Hate is conquered by love.
This is an eternal law.
Many do not realize that we must all come to an end here;
but those who do realize this, end their quarrels at once."


And he who came in peace said that he who lives by the sword
shall die by the sword.

Despite words from the Great Ones, humankind persists in its
follys.

We must advance spiritually and socially if we are to reach the
stars or we might not survive long enough to land our spaceships
on distant worlds.

What must we do now, as a people, as a nation?

We must change our thinking before it is too late.

A friend of mine just informed me that he received a call to
report to the entrance of an underground bunker. He has a JEEP
Level 2 card that assures him sanctuary after those who have a
Level 1 card are safe. This is part of the COG (Continuity of
Government program) instituted by the National Program Office.
When there is a national emergency FEMA takes charge.

My friend said that those who contacted him were worried about
war breaking out in the MidEast and the possibility of
escalation. He has not gone to his assigned place yet and is
monitoring the news very closely.

Should the rest of us worry about war? the economy? We do
anyway, but now we have an opportunity to reflect and think. We
cannot save those who died in that horrible tragedy at the World
Trade Center. It is inconceivable to even contemplate being at
Ground Zero. Life must go on for the rest of us.

And what about those UFOs we are so fond of? Have intelligent
observers now familiar with humankind looked at our broadcasts,
the pain, the tragedy? What do they feel if anything? There is
some evidence that we were being observed closely in all the
great wars. Have some of them also passed through our stages of
evolution and strife? What can we eventually learn from them and
the greater arena of life in the universe?

After the atomic bomb Einstein said that everything had changed
but our thinking. Perhaps it is now time to change our thinking.


Peace,


Bill Hamilton
Executive Director
Skywatch International Inc.









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                             Re: Flying Objects

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 11:17:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:39:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Flying Objects


 >Date: Weds, 11 Sep 2001 23:55:31 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Flying Objects

 >I am puzzled about a few
 >things regarding yesterday's deadly flights. Maybe
 >someone else
 >on the list who is a pilot knows more about the details and is
 >more up to date with the FARs.

There's a reasonably detailed article in today's New York Times
about this. It's hard to find on their website, so here's a
direct link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/13/national/13AVIA.html.

My wife and I are feeling better today. There's a deep emotional
toll that all this takes -- and it sneaks up on you. We were both
depressed last night, even though nothing had directly happened
to us. Today we're resolved to keep the TV off (most of the
time), and live our lives as normally as we can.

Greg Sandow











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                            Re: Tragedy In The US

From: Jan Pheneger <jan0320@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 11:34:26 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:41:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Tragedy In The US


Hi List,

Budd and Carol Hopkins are both ok.

I spoke with Budd at his home on Tuesday afternoon.

Any word of the wherabouts of Peter Robins would be welcome - to
know he is ok.


Respectfully,

Jan Pheneger










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                                 Atrocities

From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:59:57 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:48:11 -0400
Subject: Atrocities


Hi,

During the recent atrocity in the US Dave Clarke and I were
travelling to and from London by car, and heard more news than
we would have liked to.

It's just appalling and I sincerely hope those on this List
affected by it are as ok as can be and that those of you from
America can live through it.

My thoughts - for what they are worth - is that appropriate and
meaningful vengeance should be taken. Fanaticism and vterrorism
must never be allowed to cow anyone, whether individual or
nation.

Having now seen the stupid 'Nostradamus' predictions and the
'face' of an Islamic terrorist in the smoke (pictured in a UK
paper today) I sincerely hope ufologists do not superimpose
their belief systems onto this event. Already on one List some
idiot has claimed to have seen a 'UFO' flying in the footage and
I strongly suspect at least one idiot UFO magazine editor in the
UK will be penning an article about how vulnerable the air space
is to UFOs. This just makes a devastating event even sadder.
This is _real_ and makes the Rendlesham and Roswell fantasies
fade into nothing. I'm sure we'll all be back to bickering among
ourselves soon but in the meantime my very best wishes to anyone
even remotely touched by this horror.


Andy









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                               Re: Words Fail

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:58:31 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:02:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Words Fail


 From all of us at Hot Gossip UK, our sympathy goes out to all
America for their terrible loss.

And our thoughts are with the families and friends of those who
suffered in this terrible tragedy.


Georgina Bruni
Editor in Chief
Hot Gossip UK












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              Re: "Either I'm Too Sensitive, Or Else I'm Gettin

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:54:35 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:08:51 -0400
Subject: Re: "Either I'm Too Sensitive, Or Else I'm Gettin


Hello, all Jim.

 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:27:24 EDT
 >Subject: "Either I'm Too Sensitive, Or Else I'm Gettin Soft"
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >My cousin, my first cousin on Dad's side, died when tower two
 >went down. She managed to get out of the damned place when it
 >was blasted by other terrorists. But not this time. We were
 >close. She was my age.

 >If you need more, go to this URL:

 >http://www.rense.com/general13/breath.htm

 >With love for this country and a good deal of very un-Christian
 >hatred for the bastards who did this. May they roast for
 >eternity.


Jim,

My heart goes out to you and Rosie, I have a cousin who is on
his way back to NY from Denver because of his specialty in
Firefighting, I also have a cousin on the USS Cole who was a
survivor and she re-upped, on the Cole, this is one thing that
will unite everone who values this country and Western
Civilization. I am sorry about your cousin, and every one else's
cousin, mom, dad, son daughter, grandparent, friend et. al. who
died and suffered this act of barbarity.

I grew up on an eastern oregon cattle/wheat ranch, I have seen
the cycles of birth, death, and rebrith. As an aerial
firefighter I saw destruction on a truly massive scale
(Yellowstone comes to mind.).

But, nothing like this, have I ever experienced. Nothing.

Remember 9-11-01


GT McCoy














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                         Re: Flying Objects - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:47:44 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:11:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Flying Objects - Sparks


 >Date: Weds, 11 Sep 2001 23:55:31 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Flying Objects


 >All fellow Listerions,

 >We have just seen the worst kind of unidentified flying objects.

 >Ironically, just as I typed the previous sentence the CNN
 >commentator suddenly asked "what is the unidentified single
 >engine private plane that just flew the length of Manhattan,
 >since there is no flight allowed"? It looks like a Cessna to me.

 >Isn't Manhattan within controlled airspace? The plane was low
 >enough to be legal under normal conditions. I don't know if
 >Manhattan has special low altitude restrictions. I never flew in
 >that area. Who was that? Was it legal? A mystery.

 >Having been a pilot, the use of those airliners as weapons in
 >yesterday's attacks especially sickens me. Anyone else who has
 >been a pilot probably feels the same way, knowing the feeling.

 >Due to medical problems I haven't been able to keep my pilot's
 >certificate active in recent years. I am puzzled about a few
 >things regarding yesterday's deadly flights. Maybe someone else
 >on the list who is a pilot knows more about the details and is
 >more up to date with the FARs.

 >Those four planes were on approved flight paths and had filed
 >their normal flight plans. They had transponders and could be
 >tracked continuously on their flight paths. What I am not clear
 >about is what kind of communications took place when the
 >airliners were hijacked. Yesterday on TV I heard that the pilot
 >of the plane that crashed into the Pentagon requested clearance
 >to divert from his flight path to head to Washington. You
 >usually have to give a reason like an emrgency or something if
 >you are an airliner. Does anyone have any more information
 >regarding those communications? If proper procedures were not
 >followed I would think the control centers would be alarmed and
 >notify FAA higher officials.

 >What are the procedures if an airliner suddenly deviates from
 >its flight path and does not declare to land at the nearest
 >airport it could be directed to? What are the regulations
 >regarding what the FAA procedure is in this kind of case?
 >Wouldn't the control center issue an immediate alarm regarding
 >this irregularity? Is there a point that they would send up a
 >USAF fighter to check it out, similar to someone entering a
 >restricted airspace without clearance? Even if the hijackers
 >followed normal radio procedures, wouldn't the FAA be
 >immediately suspicious about the request for a different flight
 >path? I've been a military and a general aviation pilot and I'd
 >like to know how soon after the first plane made erratic
 >deviations that an alarm was put out. How soon after the other
 >planes deviated?

 >I'm still shocked and glued to the tube. I don't have the energy
 >to check the skinny on pilot websites.


Josh,

I can't answer most of your questions and it sickens me that the
FAA is escaping almost all criticism and scrutiny in this
terrible tragedy and act of war against our nation.

I have heard - and it is very difficult to confirm because of
poor coordination of info among national news agencies - that
one of the American flights was seen by FAA air traffic
controllers at Nashua, N.H., make the first unexplained sharp
left turn at about 8:15 AM (EDT) on Tuesday or almost 1/2 hour
before it crashed into the World Trade Center. By 8:28 AM the
FAA controllers knew there were two hijacked airliners out of
Boston's Logan airport making sharp deviations from their flight
plans and heard over the open mike held open by the captain of
one airliner (courageously and at great risk) one of the
terrorists say "We have several planes. We have other planes."

This was still about 14 minutes before the first of the hijacked
airliners was crashed into the WTC north tower in the greatest
single act of mass murder in history, killing probably 10,000
people.

Yet as far as I have been able to determine, the FAA did not
sound a wide alert until _after_ the 2nd airliner crashed into
the World Trade Center at 9:02 AM.

The very fact that I cannot even easily determine such an
obviously important fact and that questions about it are not
being raised hourly by the media attests to the fact that
something is terribly wrong here.

DOT Secretary Mineta just stated at a press conference a minute
ago that he didn't act to shut down aviation until _after_ the
_3rd_ airliner went down. Apparently _two_ airliners crashing
into the World Trade Center, killing 10,000, wasn't enough!!!

While the intelligence community gets beaten up for its enormous
lapses and failures (several of the terrorists were on FBI and
INS watch lists including terrorist pilot Mohammed Atta linked
to a bombing in Israel in 1986) the FAA continues to virtually
escape all criticism.

Now NBC network reports that at 9 AM on Tuesday at JFK airport
aboard a United flight headed for L.A. three (3) Middle
Eastern-type passengers got into an altercation with aircrew and
had to be told to leave the plane (!!!!), the 3 refused at
first, Police were called, and then the 3 did leave and
_disappeared_, escaping through the ridiculous non-secure FAA
"security" system. The three obvious hijackers were not
arrested.

A separate report to NBC from a retired police officer at the
same United terminal at JFK airport states that he noticed that
in the terminal bar everyone's attention was riveted on the TV
as they watched in horror at the two plane crashes into the
World Trade Center towers (so we know this was immediately after
9:02 AM EDT when the second airliner crashed). Everyone was
transfixed by the scene on tv _except_ for 2 Middle Easterners
who were in a hushed argument in a foreign language. He
approached them but they suddenly left when they saw him and
were joined by a _third_ man, a similar Middle Easterner, and
all three departed destination unknown.

This is simply incomprehensible that these mass murderers could
have so easily escaped.

How many 60 Minutes and 60 Minutes-type exposs in just the past
year alone have revealed the mammoth gaps in airport security
where reporters were easily able to smuggle weapons in past
airport checkpoints. Federal security agents similarly have
smuggled weapons in. And now news reports state that the
security firm responsible for Boston, Dulles and Newark airports
where the known terrorists got through to commandeer the
airliners, had been cited for _thousands_ of security lapses
going back to 1995, including allowing _dozens_ of _criminals_
into Airport Operations.

And the Clinton Commission on Air Safety & Security urged that
the already existing tight International Flight security
procedures be applied to Domestic flights -- and the FAA buckled
in to the airlines who whined and complained and refused!











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                        The Story From Ground Zero...

From: Jsmortell@aol.com
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:52:30 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:17:52 -0400
Subject: The Story From Ground Zero...


Errol, if it please the court, I would like to thank the
literally zillions of people who wrote to us, to Rosie and me,
to express their support, send prayers and such. None of you
have any idea how wonderful it is to receive such support. I
lost a cousin. But there are at least 25,000 souls now departed
from their homes here on earth. Think on how many families will
not see mommie or dad come home. Not just tonight, but likely
never again. They need our prayers. And the Red Cross needs help
too. Even if it's just you. Arms and legs. Blood. Money if you
got it. And a lot of good thoughts in the event you are not of a
religious bent. Here now is what I saw on 9/11... at what was
once a proud place for New York. Except for me as you will see.

Yesterday and the day before, I wrote about sadness and grief. I
also wrote about anger. And hatred. We lost someone, true, she
was a wonderful girl. A lady actually, but we were so close as
first cousins, close all our lives, that she is still just a
little girl to me.

And then there was the devastation of the scene. How many times
have New Yorkers passed the Statue Of Liberty on the parkway,
seen the Empire State building? Truth is, so many of us have
_never_ been to these places, except maybe as kids, when our
parents thought it important for us to visit these places. And
so, whether people or places, things stay on our minds, burned
in by a basic level of familiarity which cannot be defined.

The World Trade Center was different. It was _not_ there for me
when I was a kid. It was in fact, a blight on a more wonderful
blight. That last one needs explanation. Canal and Cortland
Streets used to be a place where, like Alice's Restaurant, you
could buy just about anything. Anything. But most important of
all to a kid of age 13 years, who was a licensed amateur radio
operator, there were the war surplus stores. I could tell you
what I bought, but you wouldn't believe it. But out of those
spare parts, those cheap components and old WW2 bomber radios, I
built a most magnificent radio shack. Most impressive. But the
place was rather a blight. The "Gesundt" character was
originally built out of the Canal and Cortland Street vendors.
Standing outside their stores screeching out what was inside,
for cheaper than dirt.

"Heah... heah... come-in... come-in... cheap... ladies hats from
Paris." And others hawking their wondrous vacuum tubes and
resisters, capacitors and selenium rectifiers.

"Selenium Rectifiers" fellow bubbas and bubbettes. You gotta be
my age to know and love the stench if you plugged the darn thing
in the wrong way in the socket. "P-U"

And so the blight was removed, only to be replaced by another
blight. A blight to some who missed the old place that was once
a fun place.

I started to say that the WTC was different. It was. Because it
was there and we wanted the old place. But it came and it became
a fixture. And unlike the Statue of Liberty and it's ilk, the
WTC was a place that nearly EVERY New Yorker saw, visited and
had business in at one time or another. Not only that, but the
place was plastered on the backdrops for the Tonight show and so
many other venues. It was plastered on places which are nearly
subliminal in left impressions on the mind.

The WTC was a fixture which had to be there. Because it was
placed there under protest by many, placed there in the media,
in the movies and on TV, in the news papers and news programs.
It was there. Had to be. I mean, look, it was everywhere you
looked.

Driving to the Financial District in emergency vehicles, on the
West Side Highway and it's extension, being paced by military,
police, fire and search and rescue vehicles, the first thing I
saw was what I did not see. And it was surreal. It just couldn't
be. But the Twin Towers were missing from a landscape on which
they just could NOT be missing. It was then that the guy next to
me wept. I would like to tell you that I didn't need him to
start in. I was almost there myself.

And when the scene enlarged, filled out field of view, I was
reminded of another scene. When I was a young engineer working
for Grumman Aircraft and Engineering Corporation in the late
60's. GAEC. The Grumman Eagle plastered on the huge Syosset,
N.Y. radome. And in that radome was not radar. There was
instead, a lunar landscape. And on that landscape was the Lunar
Rover, sitting in simulacrum on that landscape. I drove it, I
was bounced around on the moon. It was real to me. But it was
actually only realistic. The moon's surface was a gray-ish
powdered dust. Fine powder.

That was what came to my mind when we drove up. The landscape
was powder. Gray powder. I was back on the moon in the Lunar
Rover. And when I looked further out, I saw boulders which
looked like the surface of Mars. Shows to go you where my mind
is, eh? Out in space. Or spaced out. Further out there was
nothing. The scenery was familiar and demanded the Twin Towers.
But they were not there. What was, was the skeleton of the
facade. In a grim, twisted and familiar way. It was dark,
pulverized concrete all around like a gray snowstorm just
passed. And the larger chunks of gray. Everything coated in that
powder. Everything.

We were not just there to provide special communications, small
repeaters for the workers' radios, even the search doggies, but
also for sensitive microphones, for small TV cameras. All of
which required an expert hand and more expert equipment. Very
sensitive stuff.

With us was a powerful generator. About 30,000 plus KW. It was
quiet electrically as well as the sound. It was there to light
up the area in which we set up our own perimeter for the com
vans. When we fired it up the lights came on and you could see
past and through the dust in the air. Just barely. The last
thing I noticed was those chunks of concrete coated in that gray
dust. Because some of those chunks were not concrete. They were
people. People. It was then I wept most profoundly. But I was
not ashamed. Nor was I alone. As I turned I saw my fellow
volunteers doing the same.

I suppose we are all much alike in our souls. And it is our
souls which ache, not our bodies. Those things, our bodies, are
way too jaded for any emotion. No. This comes from our depths.
And thank God for that. For without it we would all succumb to
the barbarism which created this scene of devastation. Which
speaks volumes for those who perpetrated this deed. Whether from
close or from afar. These have no souls. Or those souls are
damaged and empower the bodies of these people, the perpetrators
of this crime.

Under that rubble are about 25,000 human bodies in various
pieces. And among those pieces are the pieces which once was my
Cookie. She is gone. But her soul is not among the missing.

They picked the wrong people, the wrong City. These are the
assholes of the universe. For out of this horror will arise a
new America. And I predict that we will suffer much, and suffer
long, from such as we've experienced today. But what will arise
is a better place in which to live. Even through the horror of
terrorism. They picked the wrong people. But of course, assholes
could not comprehend such.


Jim Mortellaro and the Mortellaro Family








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                               Re: Atrocities

From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:06:23 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:19:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Atrocities


 >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Atrocities
 >Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:59:57 +0100

 >It's just appalling and I sincerely hope those on this List
 >affected by it are as ok as can be and that those of you from
 >America can live through it.


Greetings list,

Just to echo what Andy has said I share the shock and horror
expressed by everyone on this list and want to send my best
wishes to anyone touched by this mindless terrorism.

I hope the US subscribers to this List will take some comfort
from the shared feelings of grief and anger that ordinary people
in Britain are experiencing - in the street, at work and
everywhere.

Living in a country that has been used to regular terrorist
outrages (on a completely different scale) has led us to regard
the USA as being one of the safest places in the world. As so
many have said, that image has been shattered and I know its a
cliche but the world will never be the same again.

All best wishes


Dave Clarke









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                           Re: Aftermath Of Attack

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:13:25 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:20:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Aftermath Of Attack


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: 13 Sep 2001 07:06:29 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Aftermath Of Attack

<snip>

 >A friend of mine just informed me that he received a call to
 >report to the entrance of an underground bunker. He has a JEEP
 >Level 2 card that assures him sanctuary after those who have a
 >Level 1 card are safe. This is part of the COG (Continuity of
 >Government program) instituted by the National Program Office.
 >When there is a national emergency FEMA takes charge.

 >My friend said that those who contacted him were worried about
 >war breaking out in the MidEast and the possibility of
 >escalation. He has not gone to his assigned place yet and is
 >monitoring the news very closely.

Please let all of know, by all means. I hope that your friend
doesn't possess much of a security clearance. Sure wouldn't want
to read about it here, first, pal.


Bob Young









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              Re: "Either I'm Too Sensitive, Or Else I'm Gettin

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:15:40 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:24:20 -0400
Subject: Re: "Either I'm Too Sensitive, Or Else I'm Gettin


 >Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:35:24 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: "Either I'm Too Sensitive, Or Else I'm Gettin Soft"


 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:27:24 EDT
 >>Subject: "Either I'm Too Sensitive, Or Else I'm Gettin Soft"
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>My cousin, my first cousin on Dad's side, died when tower two
 >>went down. She managed to get out of the damned place when it
 >>was blasted by other terrorists. But not this time. We were
 >>close. She was my age.

 >To Jim, Rosie, & the Mortellaro family,

 >On behalf of Margie and myself, I'd like to express our deepest
 >sympathy for your the senseless loss of your loved one. I lost
 >my mother just weeks ago and I understand the depth of the pain
 >you must be feeling right now. At times like these we need to
 >put our differences aside and comfort each other in any way that
 >we can.

 >In the end, all we have in Life is each other.

 >In deepest sympathy,


 >John & Margie Velez

Dear John, All those who have written, and of course, Errol,

I cannot believe the response to the post that I did not even
see. Haven't had the time to look until now. From people I've
not heard from on UpDates in a dog's age, from people I've not
agreed with in the past, from people who I've not spoken with in
a long time. From everyone. Which proves to me that we are all
alike. The differences which make us unique are due to genes,
culture and experiences. Deep within each of us is what makes us
all the same. A soul. Spirit. Life force. Call it what you will.
Such evil. Such cruelty. Impossible to imagine. I can't even
shoot a rabbit or a woodcock any more. And I love the flesh of
the woodcock. And venison... haven't had a steak in dozens of
years. Because I can't even harm an animal.

I carry a concealed firearm. For obvious reasons. But I cannot
in truth think of drawing it. In self defense maybe, but not in
anger.

And yet, there are those who draw their weapons and aim at the
souls of mothers and fathers, of children... daughters and sons.
Kill wantonly. With malice and hatred. Because you cannot do
such actions without hating. I cannot even begin to imagine such
hatred.

I remember a time when a good friend was shot in cold blood for
no reason. I saw the thing take place. Even then, I could not
hate the evil who pulled the trigger. Maybe I hated myself more
for not drawing that piece and shooting him before he shot my
friend. But I could not do that. I could not even imagine that
someone, that someone... would pull the trigger of that gun he
was pointing at Rich.

I suppose I don't belong here. I cannot abide hatred and
cruelty. And so, John... I thank you and Margie for you
thoughts. And after this, I have changed my mind about a great
deal. I've decided that there are no real differences among
people. Non which matter. And those which really are important
should be settled before we croak. Because we just don't know
when that is gonna happen. And leaving here with unfinished
business means we gotta come back.

I don't want to come back here. I want to go home. And stay
there. "Sometimes a man must be alone, and this is no place to
hide." (Dylan)


Love, peace and prayers,

Jim, Rosemarie and StupidTwo









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                        Re: My Thoughts Are With You

From: Michail Gershtein <ufo_miger@chat.ru>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:58:49 +0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:31:24 -0400
Subject: Re: My Thoughts Are With You



 >From: Adam Lowe <nicap@blueyonder.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: My Thoughts Are With You
 >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:29:31 +0100

 >Hi everyone

 >My thoughts are with anyone affected by this atrocity. I can't
 >think of a lot else to say. It's an unbelievable tragedy.
 >Adam

My thoughts too. I haven't words... it's tragedy for all of us -
and here, in Russia...

How much grief in our hearts... unbelievable...

Now in Russia also was minutes of mourning. We are together!

* Mikhail Gershtein *









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                                Are You Okay?

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:41:58 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:34:51 -0400
Subject: Are You Okay?


Folks,

Just got this from Budd Hopkins...


From: Budd Hopkins
To: <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 6:51 AM
Subject: Re: Are You Okay?


Dear Royce,

Thank you so much for your expression of concern. Carol and I
are both safe and well. We live about a mile and a half from the
World Trade Center, and as the horror unfolded we walked over to
the Hudson River where we had a view downstream. We saw the
northern building enveloped in smoke and then, suddenly, flame
gushed out from its central floors and it simply imploded,
falling in on itself and collapsing. It was the most horrendous
sight of my life. We knew that there were still uncounted
thousands of workers in the building who couldn't get down
because the fire had blocked all exits.









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                            The Terrorist Tragedy

From: Chris Rolfe <astratech@supanet.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:24:23 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:38:03 -0400
Subject: The Terrorist Tragedy


To everyone in America,

On behalf of everybody here at UFO Monitors East Kent (UK), and
UFOTREK information telephone service, I would like to send our
sincere condolences, and heart felt sympathies to the tragic
events that occurred in New York, Washington and Pittsburgh.

For myself, the picture of the aircraft going into the WTC will
haunt me for many years to come. And seeing the picture of
innocence on the face of 4 year old Juliana Clifford McCourt,
who was murdered on board flight 175 as it slammed into the WTC
along with her mother, brough heavy sadness to my heart, and
tears to my eyes. Having a little girl named Megan who will be
two years old next month brought it so close to home for me at
least.

Words cannot express how I really feel... the sadness, the
anger, etc....


I am so sorry.

Chris Rolfe
UFOMEK









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              Re: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike' - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:26:30 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:54:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike' - Randle


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 9 Sep 2001 22:33:16 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike'

Good Evening, List, all -

<snip of everything about the hunger "diet">

I thought I would point out, once again, that part of the
problem here was that many of us do not accept all of the
Disclosure Project "witnesses" as telling the truth. Many of us
have pointed out the flaws in many of these testimonies, and I
noticed that this problem was never addressed. Inside we get a
lecture on the fragmented nature of the UFO field.

Well, I for one, had trouble with the Disclosure Project because
we simply couldn't trust the data, and Dr. Greer made no real
effort to validate the stories (yes, I mean stories) that many
of these people told.

So, like it or not, this wasn't a cause that demanded support
and the Disclosure Project is badly flawed, possibly fatally.

KRandle








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                ET Politics In Clinton White House - Part 4 -

From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
Date: 10 Sep 2001 18:49:23 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:07:58 -0400
Subject: ET Politics In Clinton White House - Part 4 -


Extraterrestrial Politics in the Clinton White House: White
House Interest - Part 4

   "Recently I was in Washington meeting with a very famous
   astronaut. Everyone would know this person's name... This
   particular astronaut had during his career been in possession
   of a very specific piece of incontrovertible piece of
   evidence related to UFOs. It is something that if disclosed
   would clear and definitive. This astronaut described how he
   had approached and worked directly with President Clinton's
   Secretary of Defense William Cohen to look into and retrieve
   from classified projects this specific piece of evidence - of
   that which he had all the specific details... the words used
   by this astronaut to me were "there was an inordinate large
   amount of money and personal time by the Secretary of Defense
   William Cohen was spent to locate this evidence, and he was
   never given access to it."

     Dr. Steven Greer Interview with Art Bell August 30, 2001


UFO Interest in the Clinton White House

During a late November 1995 address in Ireland, President
Clinton took time from his speech to express frustration at not
being able to get any information on UFOs. In particular,
Clinton expressed frustration about the 1947 crash of an unknown
craft near Roswell, New Mexico. If bodies of aliens had been
recovered in Roswell, the President told the crowd, "The Air
Force didn't tell me about it, and I would like to know."

In response the President's "I would like to know" comment,
Clinton received a letter from Paul Davids, the executive
producer and co-writer of the movie 'Roswell'. Davids later
wrote about his letter to the President.

"I sent the President a two page letter urging a change of
policy regarding the secrecy and classification of documents
surrounding the UFO issue in so many cases. I enclosed four
videotapes: The movie 'Roswell' (of which I was Executive
Producer and co-writer), and three documentaries I prepared that
present UFO evidence: 'Down in Roswell' (a compendium of news
coverage through the years on the Roswell Incident); 'Reply to
the Air Force Report on the Roswell Incident' (an indictment of
the Air Force 'Mogel Balloon' report), and 'Golden Anniversary
UFO Briefing for the White Sands Missile range Pioneers.' (Based
on a UFO presentation to the 50th Anniversary of the White Sands
Missile Range and Proving Grounds.)"

When it has been general practice since 1977 for the White House
to re-route all UFO letters to NASA (or as in the case of Hunger
Striker Lara Johnstone, to be totally ignored by the President
Bush). Clinton's treatment of Davids letter was different. It
showed that the President held a genuine interest in the subject
of Roswell. Davids recalled the Clinton White House handling of
his letter.

"To my surprise, a brief reply was sent to me by the President
immediately following the date of Richard Hoagland's Washington
Press Club Conference in which Hoagland cited lunar anomalies
that support possible conclusions of ancient alien artifacts on
those worlds. The reply was overnighted by Priority Mail in a
priority envelope. (Previous correspondence from Bill Clinton
was always by standard first class mail.) My letter to the
President had been marked Personal and Confidential. His reply
was marked Personal."

"The President expressed gratitude and appreciation for my
having sent him the videocassettes, calling it generous and
thoughtful on my part, and he passed on Hillary's best wishes to
me as well."

Clinton's positive reaction to Davids letter was consistent with
a commitment he had made to the subject of UFOs while still
running for President. That commitment indicated that Clinton
was truly interested in the UFO subject. The commitment also
represented the only time a U.S. President's has addressed the
UFO phenomena in writing prior to being elected. Writing on his
personal letterhead, then President-elect Clinton wrote a
constituent named Michael,

"Thank-you for voicing your opinion on UFOs. A Clinton-Gore
administration will seek to meet the needs of the U.S. and other
nations while moving towards our long-term space objectives,
including human exploration of the solar system. We will also
stress efforts to learn about other planets which improves our
understanding of our own world, and stimulates advances in
computers, sensors, image processing, and communications."

Once elected, however, the President found out quickly that he
and his elected officials were being cut out of the government
UFO process. The President was forced to allow outsiders in to
provide UFO information to his staff. This exclusion from the
data caused the President great frustration. Years later Sarah
McClendon, a senior White House reporter, confirmed to Dr.
Steven Greer the rumored President's frustration, and the cause
for it.

McClendon told Dr. Greer that she had, at one point, asked the
President Clinton why he didn't do something about disclosing
the truth about UFOs. McClendon told Greer that the President
had leaned over and said to her, "Sarah, there's a secret
government within the government, and I have no control over
it."

Moreover, according to another story related to Dr. Greer, the
President found himself not only out of the loop, but in a
situation where he even feared for his life over the UFO issue.
Greer recounted the story as it was told to him,

"A friend of the President came to my home, after I met with CIA
Director James Woolsey. (December 1993) Now this is a guy who is
sort of a Democratic Party big wig. He said, "Steve, I don't
think we can do this, although we support the objectives.'(of
the UFO Disclosure proposal) I said, 'Why not?' Now this guy is
a big kidder. I thought he was joking. He said, 'Well, we're
convinced that if the President does what your asking him to do,
and what you've asked his CIA Director to do, he'll end up like
Jack Kennedy."

"I went, 'ha ha ha."

Then he said, 'I'm serious.' He was not joking. There's a lot of
fear, and a lot of intimidation."

The perceived threats against the President did not, however,
completely immobilize the President on the issue. It was not as
if the Clinton search for UFO truth ended, or that he began a
passive wait in the Oval Office hoping someone would come in and
tell him what was going on. He did make some moves such as, on
April 17, 1995, when he made a move he hoped would help the
Disclosure process.

What he did was to sign Executive Order 12958, which directed
that all government records of historical value and those 25
years or older be immediately reviewed and declassified, unless
meeting one of nine narrowly-defined exemptions. Clinton's
Executive Order required that all these records be reviewed, or
exempted from declassification by April 2000. It was hoped that
this declassification would open up the UFO documents everyone
was seeking.

As 1995 moved along, however, it was evident that "those in the
know who constitutionally were obligated to brief Clinton" were
not about to voluntarily provide him the UFO story.

It led President Clinton to make a second move to aid
disclosure. He began tasking the heads of various departments
within his government to bring him the answer to the UFO
mystery.

In addition, he opened the White House doors so that almost
every one of his key cabinet members and friends were given UFO
briefing from knowledgeable members of the public. People like
Greer, Rockefeller, and Farley moved in to provide UFO
information and briefings.

One of the first cabinet members to be tasked with the UFO
problem was Hillary's Clinton's former law partner, and then
head of the Justice Department, Webster Hubbell. Hubbell
recalled the UFO mission Clinton had tasked him with in his
memoir "Friends in High Places".

According to Hubbell, Clinton had said, "if I put you over at
Justice I want you to find the answers to two questions for me,
- One, who killed JFK. And two, are there UFOs."

"Clinton was dead serious," Hubbell wrote, "I had looked into
both but wasn't satisfied with the answers I was getting." It
was later revealed that Hubbell had even gone to NORAD
headquarters to get an answer for the President, but there too
he had run up against a brick wall of denial.

The public airing by Hubbell that Clinton had an obsession to
find out about UFOs and the JFK assassination did cause some
embarrassment at the White House. Mike McCurry, the President's
Press Secretary, immediately faced the question of confirming or
denying what Hubbell had written in his book.

The problem of answering the question was not simple. Not only
did McCurry have to answer the question, but also he had to do
it without putting Hubbell down. This was because Hubbell had
been subpoenaed to testify about the White Water scandal that
was dogging the Clintons. Hubbell knew where the bodies were
buried, so the Clinton White House didn't dare make him angry.

The tact that McCurry used to escape the Hubbell UFO question
was brilliant. In fact, he used the same technique that has been
used against UFOs by various government agencies for over 50
years. He mocked the subject of UFOs, and avoided discussion of
the President's involvement.

McCurry did this by referring to an alien that had appeared on
the front cover of the Weekly World News newspaper tabloid
shaking hands with the President. The humorous issue with the
picture of Clinton and the alien ran five months before the
Clinton 1992 election victory, and it headlined the story that
the alien was backing Clinton for the election. So when asked to
confirm the "New York Post" story that Clinton had tasked
Webster Hubbell to look into UFOs, McCurry stated,

"No. We have a regular briefing in the Oval Office with this
space alien that some tabloids report. (Laughter.) Maybe the New
York Post hasn't reported that, but we asked the space creature
to look into that story."

Files from the Clinton Office for Science and technology Policy
showed that Clinton's Science Advisor, Jack Gibbons, had also
been involved in attempting to get an answer to the UFO mystery
for the Clinton White House. The particular investigation that
Gibbons' office undertook related to UFOs concerned the crash of
a mysterious object near Roswell, New Mexico in July 1947.

To fulfill his role for the President, Gibbons tasked the Air
Force to do a full investigation of the Roswell incident. He
also cooperated with a General Accounting Office investigation,
initiated by New York Congressman Steven Schiff, into the events
surrounding the 1947 New Mexico crash.

History does not yet tell us whether Clinton tasked Gibbons to
investigate UFOs, or whether Gibbons knew that he better play
along with Clinton's friend (Laurance Rockefeller) who was
heading up the request to the White House for UFO information.

It is now fairly clear, however, that although UFOs may have
been a pet interest of the President, but it was not a subject
that did not bring Gibbons any joy. This Gibbons' distaste for
the subject of UFOs is clearly spelled out in many of the OSTP
documents. People who dealt with Gibbons on the issue of UFOs
also relate his unease with the subject.

Dick Farley was one of the insiders who stated Gibbons was not
happy with his "UFO assignment" for the President. Farley was a
member of the Rockefeller team that first briefed Gibbons on
UFOs in 1993 (shortly after Clinton took office). Farley wrote
that Gibbons "maintained the posture that his efforts were
really to 'protect' the President by keeping him away from UFO
issues and Laurance Rockefeller's inquiries."

Gibbons had also stated right up front in the first briefing
with Rockefeller that "he was an agnostic, that if there was
some evidence there he would be glad to look at it. But at this
point he had no such evidence."

When Laurance Rockefeller sent his draft Presidential UFO letter
to Jack Gibbons for his input in late 1995, Gibbons had another
chance to comment on UFOs. The comments Gibbons wrote in the
margins of the draft were indicative of his disbelief.

In the draft letter Rockefeller had suggested Gibbons' OSTP
office be a "coordinator for government information about ETI
and UFOs." Gibbons scribbled in the margin, "Please, no!" At the
end of the letter Gibbons scribbled three points that summed up
his conclusion to the UFO involvement of his OSTP office, and
the Rockefeller UFO evidence.

-open invitation to the nuts
-overwhelm OSTP
-no evidence

The biggest indicator that Gibbons did not share the President's
love of UFOs came in a August 1995 letter that Jack Gibbons had
written to the President. It was just days before the President
was scheduled to receive a long awaited briefing on UFOs from
Laurance Rockefeller. Gibbons wrote like a man who had tried to
save the company from collapse, but was now announcing to the
owner that the company was broke. Gibbons letter to President
Clinton was an acknowledgment that, despite his best efforts,
Rockefeller had made it around him, and was now going to sell
UFOs to the President in person. Gibbons also outlined his
displeasure with the UFO subject, and how things had turned out.

"Soon after you were inaugurated Les Aspin and Mel Laird
referred Laurance to me concerning the famous 'Roswell
incident,' dating from 1947, in which UFO buffs claimed a flying
saucer crashed near the town of Roswell, New Mexico... I
persuaded Rockefeller not to bother you with this issue but
instead to let me talk to defense officials to see if there was
anything to the story... the bottom line is that all evidence
points to a failed U.S. Air Force balloon experiment, and no
evidence of a 'Flying saucer' or cover-up conspiracy. . .
Rockefeller may thank you for the openness of the
Administration, including his ability to work with me... he
knows that we are trying to be helpful in responding to his
concerns about UFOs... but I've made it no secret that we must
not be too diverted from more earthly imperatives."

Besides the members of Clinton's staff like Hubbell and Gibbons
who had been given "UFO jobs," we now know that a whole series
of close Clinton staffers were receiving UFO briefing from a
variety of sources.

Some, like Clinton Press Secretary Dee Dee Myers, took the UFO
information she had received and went on to be a media
consultant for the movie "Contact." This was the 1997 movie that
included a clip of President Clinton announcing that astronomers
had just made the first contact with extraterrestrials. It was
a video clip that had been carefully reworked to make it appear
like an announcement of the discovery of an extraterrestrial
message. It was in reality only a statement made in August 1996
by President Clinton regarding the discovery of possible
bacterial evidence found in a Martian meteor.

The Presidential clip, although clearly faked to be something it
was not, produced almost no hostile response or legal action
from the Clinton White House.

Other Clinton press secretaries had also been dragged into the
UFO mess. Most were finding the UFO questions difficult to deal
with. Joe Lockhart, for example, when approached at a White
House reception about UFOs for the second time by a friend of
reporter Sarah McClendon made it clear he no longer wished to
discuss the subject. Lockhart then went to the far side of the
room where he remained for the remainder of the reception.

Mike McCurry, on the other hand, usually handled the subject
with caustic or humorous comments. An example of this occured
when asked during a news conference by one reporter asked if the
President might be going to Roswell. McCurry replied, " I didn't
say a thing. No, we don't need to go there because we were there
in the flying saucer yesterday.

In 1996 McCurry faced numerous UFO questions due to the release
of the movie "Independence Day," and the possible discovery of
signs of life in a Martian meteor. The first questions came just
days "Independence Day." They centered on the movie's theme of
invading aliens that had blown up the White House as part of
their attack. Two reporters from the "Florida Today" newspaper
asked McCurry if the White House had any plan for an alien
invasion attack if it were to come. McCurry replied that there
were no plans.

Further inquiries by the reporters about a possible
"Independence Day" scenario led McCurry to say that if the
aliens did attack, "I just hope it's one of those days when
Whitewater or the FBI files have dominated the news."

Shortly after this questioning about "Independence Day" Bill and
Hillary returned to vacation in the Tetons where they had
received their UFO briefing the year before from Laurance
Rockefeller. The vacation also came only days after President
Clinton read his statement on the South Lawn of the White House
announcing that scientists had found a Martian meteorite that
showed possible signs of biological life. All these factors
seemed to come together for a great UFO one liner when McCurry
was asked if the President planned to head back to Washington
early as he had the year before. McCurry replied,

He will hold to that tradition. The only thing that would compel
a high public profile is if space aliens came to Washington and
destroyed the White House. (Laughter.) That would probably
compel him to come out of his blissful vacation mode.

The briefing for Clinton administration members appeared to have
started even before the President took office. The first of many
was an offer of a UFO briefing to the Clinton White House from
former Nixon Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird. At the urging of
Laurance Rockefeller, Laird wrote to his good friend Les Aspin,
the Clinton Defense Secretary designee, offering to brief him on
UFOs.

Also called in by Rockefeller to help with the White House UFO
briefing initiative was the famous evangelist Billy Graham - a
man who claimed friendships with many U.S. Presidents. Graham
had spoken earlier of his belief in extraterrestrial life in a
book he had written about angels. Graham had supplemented this
statement about extraterrestrial life in an interview that he
had given on Clinton's Inauguration Day to interviewer David
Frost.

Rockefeller wrote Graham that he would like Graham to co-sign a
letter to the President "requesting that he review the present
secret classification of government information pertaining to
UFOs and related phenomena." Rockefeller told Graham in his
letter that he was considering Maurice Strong, Perez de Cuellar,
and ex-President Jimmy Carter as other possible signatories to
the letter.

Graham, although supportive of the efforts to gain
declassification for the UFO subject, turned down the offer to
sign the letter to President Clinton. He wrote Rockefeller,

"Naturally, I was most interested to hear of your desire to get
declassification of documents changed so that they will be
available to researchers and those with an interest in the
so-called UFOs, etc. I think you are exactly right, that since
they are reviewing the whole classification process, many
documents will probably become available that have not
previously.

I also appreciate your invitation to me to be a part of those
signing such a letter of request to the President. However, over
the years I have mad it a policy not to co-sign such letters,
but keep my contacts with presidents on a purely, personal,
one-on-one, private basis. In this way I have an opportunity to
discuss many issues and subjects over the years with nobody
knowing about it, no publicity, and they have the assurance that
I will not discuss what we talked about... I hope you will
understand."

The early UFO briefings given to White House staff did not stop
at Les Aspin. Bruce Lindsay, Clinton's legal counsel, Arkansas
friend, and key figure inside the White House trying to contain
the Monica Lewinsky story, was briefed on the subject of UFOs by
Dr. Steven Greer's Project Starlight staff. Nothing has yet
become public about how Lindsey reacted or what efforts he made
to help the Clinton Administration end UFO secrecy.

Lindsey was one of the Arkansas Clinton inner circle members who
helped pick many of the cabinet members for Clinton during the
transition in 1992-93. He may have been a part of another group
of "close associates" of President Clinton who were briefed in
Little Rock after Clinton realized he was being stonewalled on
his UFO inquiries. The briefer to this group of Clinton
associates was Mars and UFO investigator Richard Hoagland.

The mention of the briefing was first made public in an
interview Hoagland conducted with Art Bell. It received very
little attention at the time, due partly to disbelief that a
group attached to the President would be gathered together in
Little Rock, to obtain UFO information that the President should
be able to get with a phone call.

According to an account of the Hoagland led UFO briefing, He
gave the briefing over two nights. "The first night went well,
the second night was headed-off, and attendees were told that
Hoagland had left for Texas."

In 1998 White House reporter Sarah McClendon added another name
to the list of people briefed in the White House. McClendon ran
a story stating that Clinton's key National Security Advisor
Anthony Lake had also received a briefing on UFOs. Lake was
confronted about his knowledge of UFOs story during an
appearance on the PBS Diane Rehm talk show. Lake was so
flustered with the question (which centered on his knowledge of
Roswell - a case the Clinton administration had spend a lot of
effort investigating) that he literally provided no answer at
all. Diane Rehm was forced to step in and talk to the caller.

Then following a speech Lake gave in April 1998 at Princeton
University, he was asked directly about the McClendon story that
during his term as National Security Advisor to Clinton he had
been briefed about UFOs. This time, Lake at least had a response
to the UFO question but it was an answer that was very strange.

"This is very classified. But if you look at Independence Day,
the contact with the space aliens, the description of the aliens
is just about perfect. No, that's nonsense. Absolute nonsense. I
never got a briefing. There is no, what is it Roswell. Unless, I
never heard of Roswell...Area 51.I never heard of it... "

The briefers of Anthony Lake were rumored to be Dr. Greer's
CSETI Starlight group. I therefore put the question of the
National Security Advisor's claim of UFO ignorance and his
denial of a UFO briefing to Dr. Greer following a lecture he
gave at Laughlin, Nevada in March 2001. Speaking to Lake's claim
of UFO ignorance, Greer responded, "Not true." As to Anthony
Lake's claim that he was never briefed, Dr. Greer stated,

"A member of my team provided him with those materials, and he
asked the President about the subject. He is not totally
ignorant of the subject. It is true if he said he ignorant of it
in terms of material provided to him officially. I'm just a guy
(referring to his briefing to Lake) I'm lower than dog poop. I'm
just a guy - a civilian. So if he's saying he did not deal with
or get officially- that's true. They did receive materials from
us. I do have the man on my team who gave it to him and briefed
him."

Vice-President Al Gore, senior people in Al Gore's office, his
Chief of Staff, and many of his personal friends" were also
given UFO briefings by Dr. Greer's Starlight team. Very little
has been released about Gore and his staff's reaction, or
subsequent action Gore gave to help declassify the UFO subject.
Stories have circulate that Gore's people, particularly his
person on the environment was very interested, and did discuss
the UFO topic further with Greer outside of the briefings given.

Dr. Greer gave the most significant briefing to a member of the
Clinton administration in December 1993. It was a three-hour
briefing given to President Clinton's Director of Central
Intelligence James Woolsey. Dr. Greer described his briefing of
Woolsey as a presentation of "the scientific data, along with a
well conceived assessment, and set of recommendations."

Greer stated that he had been told that Woolsey "had an interest
in the subject and felt that the subject was valid, that he had
not been able to find out anything through channels, even though
he was the head of the CIA, the NSA, the NRO, and other civilian
intelligence agencies."

Woolsey was very moved by the evidence Greer presented and
offered to do what he could to come up with answers. As
supported by a recently declassified document from the CIA,
Woolsey did appear (as claimed by Greer) to try to track down
some UFO cases given to him to check. These efforts were
unsuccessful. He found himself was faced with the "empty file
syndrome" - no evidence pro or con.

His wife Sue Woolsey, Chief Operating Officer for the National
Academy of Sciences, was also present for the Greer briefing.
She shared an interest in the phenomena, as she and her husband
had been involved in a daylight sighting during the late sixties
in New Hampshire. Her interest in Greer's work also appeared to
continue after the briefing, and even after her husband was
replaced as DCI. She was reportedly in attendance for the
special UFO briefings Dr. Greer held for government and
congressional members in Washington, in April 1997.

The internal UFO inquiries made at the CIA by James Woolsey
following the Greer briefing began what became a new whitewash
CIA study on the agency's involvement in the UFO phenomena over
the years 1947-1990. It was titled "CIA's Role in the Study of
UFOs, 1947-1990." CIA historian Gerald K. Haines wrote it. In
the introduction to the paper Haines wrote of James Woolsey's
UFO involvement,

"In late 1993, after being pressured by Ufologists for the
release of additional CIA information on UFOs, R. James Woolsey
ordered another review of all Agency files on UFOs."

Richard Farley, a former member of the Rockefeller UFO
Disclosure Initiative team, made his own effort to provide UFO
briefings to yet other members of the Clinton White House. He
dealt for over a year with Assistant to the President and Deputy
Chief of Staff, (later Ambassador to Britain) Phil Lader. Farley
reported that he sent "several packages" of UFO material to
Lader. Farley has never explained why he chose Lader, but Lader
was responsible for White House Operations and staff, including
the coordination of the overall policy development process.

The released Clinton OSTP papers revealed that Lader appeared to
be interested in the UFO material Farley was sending. For
example, in response to the first packet of Rockefeller White
House Initiative documents sent by Farley in February 1994,
Lader sent Farley a thank-you letter. In the margin of the
letter Lader had added a hand-written comment "Remarkable
Thoughts."

Farley told this author that his UFO briefing effort actually
made it as high as Clinton's Chief of Staff Mack McLarty. Farley
believed that McLarty had discussed the material with President
Clinton, but doubted that he had given the President anything
more than what Farley called "retail UFOlogy."

Those in the office of the Chief of Staff to the President after
McLarty left appeared to carry on the interest in UFOs. They
also showed that it was okay to be interested in UFOs in the
Clinton White House. Clinton Deputy Chief of Staff John Podesta
was one case in point. He was known among White House reporters
as the unofficial leader of the X-files club in the West Wing of
the White House.

Podesta expressed his obsession with X-files when he told "U.S.
News" "when the show about aliens comes on I just get glued to
the tube and try to figure out which government agencies to call
to determine if the show's story is real or not." "U.S. News"
reported further that Podesta had even e?mailed one of the shows
characters, FBI agent Dana Scully."

The "Christian Science Monitor" newspaper also wrote about the
Clinton's Deputy Chief of Staff and his extraordinary interest
in the X-files.

"Some White House staffers decorate coffee tables with
presidential trinkets. Not John Podesta. While serving as deputy
chief of staff to President Clinton, the table in his office was
covered with "X?Files" paraphernalia. Books, fan magazines, and
photos of special agents Mulder and Scully formed the little
shrine he built to the popular science fiction TV series."

Even as this paper was being written and edited, another
revelation was made about another Clinton staffer who appeared
to have as part of his job description, "find out about UFOs."
That Clinton cabinet member was Secretary of Defense William
Cohen. Given Cohen's background, it is not surprising that he
would take up a UFO cause for the Clinton White House. After all
Cohen was one of the Senators who stepped in and helped rescue
the 20 million dollar U.S. Army's psychic intelligence-gathering
program known as Project Stargate, after Reagan national
Security advisor Frank Carlucci "dispatched the inspector
general to investigate the Stargate Project at Fort Meade."

It has not been announced if the UFO directive for Cohen's
involvement came directly from President Clinton, but Dr. Steven
Greer has announced that after discussions with "a very famous
astronaut" that Cohen had called this astronaut in to help with
a UFO investigation he had begun.

"This particular astronaut had during his career been in
possession of a very specific piece of incontrovertible piece of
evidence related to UFOs. It is something that if disclosed
would clear and definitive," Greer said in a special breaking
interview with radio host Art Bell. "This astronaut described
how he had approached and worked directly with President
Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen to look into and
retrieve from classified projects this specific piece of
evidence - of that which he had all the specific details . .
.the words used by this astronaut to me were 'there was an
inordinate large amount of money and personal time by the
Secretary of Defense William Cohen was spent to locate this
evidence, and he was never given access to it.'"

Dr. Greer stated in the interview that this effort by Secretary
Cohen was further proof that, despite the interest in the
Clinton White House and a concerted effort by the President and
his staff to get the answers, they were unconstitutionally cut
out of the process of governing control over the UFO subject.

It was perhaps frustrating situations like the one with Cohen
that led Bill Clinton to bypass the official search for UFO
answers, and actually approve a personal UFO briefing from a
member of the public for himself and his wife Hillary. That
historic briefing took place during the President's August 1995
vacation at the Rockefeller Ranch outside Jackson Hole, Wyoming.
The briefer was Laurance Rockefeller.

The inclusion of Hillary in the Rockefeller briefing was the
first indicator that the President's wife was prepared to play a
strong role in the search for UFO answers.

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Subject: Extraterrestrial Politics in the Clinton White House: Hillary's
   Involvement -Part 5A

Extraterrestrial Politics in the Clinton White House: Hillary's Involvement - Pa
rt 5A

A poll reveals that almost half of all Americans think the
government is hiding evidence of UFOs from the public. The other
half thinks that the evidence of UFOs existed, but it was
"misplaced" by Hillary Clinton. One of the many Clinton jokes
that circulated on the Internet

A review of the 991 pages of the Clinton administration Office
of Science and Technology Policy UFO files have revealed that
yet another powerful member of the Clinton White House was
involved in the UFO briefings, and also in the actual attempt to
bring the issue to President Clinton. That person, whose name
appears more than once in the OSTP documents, was the
President's wife Hillary Clinton.

Hillary's UFO involvement might have come simply from the fact
that she played a strong role in many of the Clinton White House
decisions. Hillary was not a typical first lady. She was for
example, the only first lady in history to have her own office
in the West Wing.

For this and her other independent actions, Hillary was often
described in unflattering terms. "The American Spectator," for
example, described Hillary as "The Lady Macbeth of Little Rock:
consuming ambition, inflexibility of purpose, domination of
pliable husband, and an unsettling lack of tender human feeling,
along with the affluent contempt for traditional female roles."

Not only was Hillary a strong female force inside the white
House, but also she exhibited a strong liking for items of the
paranormal like UFOs. It was an interest she shared with many
past Presidents and first ladies in history.

Paranormal First Ladies

The idea that a first lady might have an interest in UFOs goes
all the way back to Mrs. Betty Ford. During 1966 Gerald Ford's
made congressional requests for an investigation into UFO
sightings that were occurring in his home state of Michigan. It
was rumored, however, that it was his wife Betty who had the
interest in the UFO subject. Her husband, the congressman, as
the story goes, was only following her direction in asking for
an investigation.

Nancy Reagan continued the First Lady trend with her strong
interest in UFOs as well as in other areas of the paranormal.
President Reagan shared both of her interests. Nancy was
present for Ronald Reagan's first reported UFO sighting prior to
attending a dinner party in California. When Reagan had his
second sighting, he reported it to Nancy as soon as he arrived
home. According to Norman C. Millar, to whom Reagan told the
story, Ronald and Nancy Reagan had done personal research on
UFOs following the sighting. This research had uncovered many
things, including the fact that there were references to UFOs in
Egyptian history.

Although many historians have written up Ronald and Nancy
Reagan, as not always in touch with reality, the fact is that
many first families, who had occupied 1600 Pennsylvania Ave,
were also according to available records, quite interested in
things of the paranormal. A quick review shows that it was not
unusual at all to find a first lady or president with an
interest in ghost, seances, or UFOs. Consider for example:

  - the wife of President Abraham Lincoln, Mary Todd Lincoln,
  hosted as many as eight seances in the White House. President
  Lincoln, himself, attended at least one of these seances held
  in the White House on April 23, 1863. Much of Mary Todd's
  interest in spiritualism centered on efforts to communicate
  with her son Willie who in 1862 died in what is now known as
  the Lincoln bedroom. Mrs. Lincoln claimed success. "Willie
  lives," said Mrs. Lincoln, "he comes to me every night and
  stands at the foot of the bed with the same sweet adorable
  smile he always has had."

  - President Theodore Roosevelt claimed that he felt the
  presence of Lincoln in the Lincoln bedroom. He was rumored to
  have kept his "astrological chart mounted on a chess board, and
  was said to consult it at crucial moments in his presidency."

  - Eleanor Roosevelt said of the Lincoln ghost, "Sometimes when
  I worked at my desk late at night I'd get a feeling that
  someone was standing behind me. I'd have to turn around and
  look."

  - Jimmy Carter and his wife believed that a house he lived in
  from 1955 to 1961 was haunted. Carter's daughter held sleeps
  over in the White House where the young girls waited for
  Lincoln's ghost to appear. In addition to ghosts, President
  Carter believed that on January 6, 1969 he witnessed a UFO for
  ten minutes while waiting for a meeting to begin in a small
  Georgia town.

  - First ladies and Presidents who claimed to have seen or
  sensed Lincoln's ghost in the White House include, Grace
  Coolidge, Theodore Roosevelt, Eleanor Roosevelt, Harry Truman,
  Dwight Eisenhower, Jacqueline Kennedy, and Ladybird Johnson.

  - Nancy and Ronald Reagan both claimed to have experienced the
  Lincoln ghost. Reagan, to the dismay of his staff even referred
  to Lincoln's ghost in his speeches.

  - Both James Garfield and Abraham Lincoln believed they had
  premonitions that they would be assassinated. Truman believed
  that he had a premonition in a dream of Roosevelt's death just
  before the President died.

  - Most of the decisions in the Reagan White House (especially
  after the assassination attempt) took place only after they
  were approved by Nancy Reagan's California astrologer.

  - Mamie and Dwight Eisenhower fought a rumor that they were
  bringing psychic Jean Dixon into the White House for advice.

  - Other first ladies who were interested in visionaries,
  psychics, mediums, astrologers, and human potential advocates
  included the wives of Ulysses S. Grant, John Tyler, Woodrow
  Wilson, and Warren G. Harding.

The fact then that OSTP files hint that Hillary Clinton
continued the trend of interest in UFOs by first ladies should
come as no surprise. These OSTP references, along with other
public UFO statements, show that Hillary led all First Ladies in
her strong interest in UFOs and other paranormal areas of study.

Hillary had a good sense of humor about her rumored interest and
involvement in the world of UFOs. In June 1997, the Weekly World
News tabloid ran a ridiculous story that there had been a crash
of a UFO in Arkansas. Hillary, it declared had adopted an alien
baby that had survived the crash, and the Secret Service was
rushing to build a special nursery in the White House. When
asked about this humorous tabloid tale Hillary was rumored to
have said, " If the alien baby comes, we're ready and looking
forward to it... I've always wanted a sibling for Chelsea."

At times Hillary's interest in UFOs appeared to be one of quiet
support or curiosity. In May 1995 Hillary was asked to present a
lecture at a conference, sponsored by Hillary's friend Laurance
Rockefeller, which dealt with the impact of possible future
extraterrestrial contact. Patti Solis, Director of Scheduling
for the First Lady wrote, "Mrs. Clinton's official schedule will
not permit her to accept the invitation." Hillary may have been
interested in UFOs, but a public speech on the topic was a bit
too much of an "outing."

The Clintons Get Briefed

The first clear indication that Hillary was to play an active
role in the UFO policy inside the Clinton White House came when
a story was published by the New York Post that Bill and Hillary
Clinton had been briefed on the UFO subject, in August 1995,
while the first family was on vacation at the Rockefeller Teton
Ranch outside of Jackson Hole, Wyoming.

Neither the CIA nor any other agency was involved in the
briefing. The then 85-year-old billionaire philanthropist and
Clinton friend Laurance Rockefeller did it. With both Clinton's
present he presented an oral briefing designed to present the
best evidence for UFOs.

The UFO briefing was done during the Clinton's scheduled
seventeen-day holiday. The Clintons were staying at the 8000 sq.
ft. villa (known as the JY ranch) of Laurance's nephew West
Virginia Senator John D. Rockefeller located at the south end of
the Teton National Park.

As reported by Dick Farley, the CIA had attempted to "shield"
Clinton from the people like Rockefeller and Greer who were
trying to enlighten the President about UFOs. For that reason
Rockefeller chose to do the briefing away from the White House
where the CIA would have less control, and less ability to block
his UFO efforts.

The Wyoming vacation presented the prime opportunity as few of
Clinton's top people were at the ranch during the vacation
period. The only one known to have been there was Erskine Bowles
who arrived the morning of the briefing. Even press secretary
Mike McCurry was on holidays. The assistant press secretary
Ginny Terzano was at Jackson Hole holding down the fort.

The UFO briefing occurred due to a combination of Rockefeller's
power and determination to bring the problem of UFO secrecy to
the President, and the President's interest in UFOs and
frustration at not being able to find out what was going on. The
President was ready to hear the story and Rockefeller was ready
to tell it. It would be the first of what Richard Farley called
"several direct contacts" between Rockefeller and Clinton away
from the White House.

Moreover, Rockefeller had become tired at what he considered the
continued coverup surrounding UFOs, and the effort by those
surrounding Clinton to shield the President from his UFO
Initiative. Rockefeller's was determined to play hardball to get
the ear of the President. This was evidenced by a pressure
tactic that the White House handlers learned about just prior to
the UFO briefing given to Bill and Hillary in Wyoming.

During the first UFO briefing given to Clinton's Science Advisor
in March 1993, Laurance Rockefeller had discussed the
possibility of a public campaign in major U.S. newspapers to
"encourage the President to change the policy of secrecy silence
and disinformation he inherited concerning the UFO phenomena."

In August 1995, as Rockefeller was preparing his briefing for
President Clinton, he was also tightening the screws to let
others (blocking his UFO Initiative in the White House) know he
meant business. It may have been these kind of pressure tactics
that finally led to the White House handlers to allow the
Rockefeller UFO show and tell session. In one of the documents
found in the recently released Clinton OSTP files there is a
letter where C.B. Scott Jones outlined the threat.

"Several layouts of full page ads have been drafted. One that I
like is attached to this letter. Timing of such a media strategy
depends upon what the White House does or does not do. If
needed, it certainly would not be delayed much before the
presidential campaign media blitz starts."

Attached to the letter Jones attached one of the proposed ads
that Rockefeller was proposing to place in The News York Times,
Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, Los Angeles Times and others.


Mr. President
On the subject of UFO Phenomena -
What Do You Know. When Did You Learn It?
Have you Shared it With Congress?
When Will You Talk To The American People About It?
The Subject is as Important as any We Will
Ever Face. Don't try to go it Alone.
This Information Belongs to the World.

Although some around President Clinton seemed determined to
exclude UFOs from the presidential list of "things to do,"
Clinton, himself, had always exhibited a strong interest in the
subject of UFOs. In many of his public speeches he mentioned or
joked about UFOs. One example was when he commented quite
positively over the 1996 alien invasion movie "Independence
Day." He even found a moral in the fictional alien story.

"I loved it. I loved it and ??Mr. Pullman came and showed it. I
thought he made a good president. And we watched the movie
together, and I told him after it was over he was a good
president, and I was glad we won. And it made me wonder if I
should take flying lessons. . The good thing about Independence
Day is there's an ultimate lesson for that ?? for the problems
right here on Earth. We whipped that problem by working together
with all these countries. And all of a sudden the differences we
had with them seemed so small once we realized there were
threats that went beyond our borders. And I wish that we could
think about that when we deal with terrorism and when we deal
with weapons proliferation ?? the difference between all these
others problems. That's the lesson I wish people would take away
from Independence Day. "

Clinton's UFO interest would have meant that he fully welcomed
Rockefeller's UFO briefing as part of his vacation. There was
nothing, however, put out by the White House Press Office that
indicated UFOs were on the vacation agenda. Even Clinton said no
more than he intended to rest, and play some golf. The assistant
Press Secretary stated nothing more than "I think you can expect
them to go out and have fun. It's a vacation."

Behind the scenes the UFO briefing had been ready for weeks. Dr.
Steven Greer had provided Rockefeller with material that would
be used in the briefing. He wrote James Dorskind, Deputy
Assistant to the President and Director of Presidential
Correspondence, informing him that he and his group would be
available to help with the Presidential UFO briefing should
there be problems.

"At Mr. Rockefeller's request, I have conveyed to him a package
of evidence, assessments and other documents to share with the
President. Please know that I am available to answer any
questions regarding this evidence or the subject in general, and
I am willing to come to the YK Ranch on very short notice,
should this be helpful to the President or his staff. Be assured
that our entire network of scientists, astronauts and
researchers are at your service."

Clinton's Science Advisor, Jack Gibbons, wrote a memorandum to
President Clinton attempting to prepare the President for the
Rockefeller briefing. He titled it "Inquiry from Laurance
Rockefeller." It was a memo that indirectly tried to tell the
President that the briefing would be a waste of time. That he
and his staff had already been down this road with Rockefeller
and that there was no evidence to support Rockefeller's
concerns. He wrote,

"You will probably see Mr. Rockefeller on your vacation in the
Tetons. He will want to talk to you about his interests in
extrasensory perception, paranormal phenomena, and UFOs. His
interests are related to those of Senator Pell."

"A second rubric for Rockefeller's interest is what is called
'human potential' research. The extreme examples usually involve
precognition, super-human strength, and endurance in life saving
roles, telepathy, and others. Senator Pell and others have
supported the funding of research in social science to focus
more on these phenomena."

When the UFO briefing actually took place is not certain, but it
occurred before or after the 49th birthday party given for the
President at the home of World Bank President James Wolfensohn
near the Rockefeller Ranch, on the evening of the August 19.

Some like C. B. Scott Jones, who had been involved with
Rockefeller in the first UFO briefing given to a member of the
Clinton administration, was not too certain that the White House
would ever let the briefing take place. On August 23, 1995, he
wrote to Jack Gibbons trying to find out what had happened.

"Mr. Rockefeller was a guest at the President's birthday party a
few days ago in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. I hope he had an
opportunity to talk to the President about this subject. It
would be comforting to know for sure that the President is not
being shielded by the White House staff on this subject."

As Dr. Greer had been providing material for the briefing, and
was corresponding with Dorskind at the White House, this author
asked Greer at the Laughlin World UFO congress what the
President's reaction had been to the Rockefeller presentation.
Greer stated,

"Bill Clinton's reaction was that he had asked Webster Hubbell
to look into this. Wester Hubbell asked NORAD, and asked if
there was anything to it. They said no� Clinton was not in put
into the loop contrary to what you might have heard on this, and
Carter was largely left out. He knew a little, but he was not
allowed to really get briefed. Reagan knew more, and Bush knew
more."

In addition to Hillary being included in the Rockefeller
briefing given to Bill Clinton during the 1995 vacation, the
Clinton OSTP files give another hint at the key involvement by
Hillary in the Rockefeller UFO Initiative.

As mentioned before, for a period of three years Rockefeller
worked on a letter to be sent to the President on the UFO
subject. Although not explicitly stated in the OSTP files, it
appeared that Rockefeller had been discouraged from sending the
letter to the President it by Jack Gibbons.

On November 1, 1995, Rockefeller's lawyer Henry L. Diamond sent
Jack Gibbons the latest version of Rockefeller letter to the
President. As had happened before Diamond proposed that it was
time the President saw the letter. "Laurance thinks," wrote
Diamond, "it is perhaps timely to send a letter to the
President."

More important than the fact that Rockefeller was again
threatening a direct UFO letter to the President, is the fact
that Diamond announced to Gibbons the identity of the person who
had helped in the drafting of the Presidential letter. The
people helping Rockefeller with the UFO letter were none other
than Hillary Clinton and her staff.

"Attached are," wrote Diamond, "a draft letter to the President
which Laurance has been discussing with Mrs. Clinton and her
staff." The draft of the Hillary aided November 1995 letter to
the President read as follows:

Draft

Dear President Clinton,
Re: Lifting Secrecy on Information About
Extraterrestrial Intelligence as Part
Of the Current Classification review

For some time in connection with my concern for human values, I
have been interested in the enhancement of spirituality and
holistic healing as well as the development of a new paradigm of
consciousness. This involves an appreciation of the close
relationship between science and religion and the wisdom of
approaching them together rather than separately.

As result of extensive conversations with researchers in these
areas, as well as my own informal study, I have come to believe
that the question of life elsewhere in the cosmos is of
paramount importance. Your initiative in bringing greater
openness to government through the current review of the
classification of government documents to eliminate unnecessary
secrecy, offers an extraordinary opportunity to advance our
knowledge of this question.

This letter is to request, that, as part of this reassessment,
you personally and specifically direct a review of current
government information policy concerning Extraterrestrial
Intelligence (ETI), including Unidentified Flying Objects
(UFOs). It is widely believed that various information
concerning the existence of non - existence of UFOs, and that it
has been unnecessarily withheld from the public as classified
for reasons of national security. If this information were
released, it would be received as evidence of a new spirit of
partnership between government and its citizens.

The current classification review is a good step. However, Mr.
President, from past experience there is every reason to believe
that without your personal initiative available information of
ETI and UFOs will not be released in a meaningful way. This is
to urge you to expand and accelerate the important movement
towards openness you have initiated. We would like to suggest
the following steps:

1. Direct that information about ETI and UFOs be given priority
in the current classification review.

2. Appoint a coordinator for government information about ETI
and UFOs to bring together information from all federal agencies
involved, such as the Department of Defense, the Air Force,
NASA, the CIA and other parts of the intelligence community.
Your Science Advisor, Jack Gibbons, might well be the right
person for this role.

3. Make it known through federal agencies, such as those named
above, that anyone having information about ETI or UFOs will be
granted amnesty from relevant oaths or other government
constraints.

These steps, I respectfully suggest, would further not only be
the cause of scientific inquiry and knowledge, but also that of
public confidence in government and international good will. The
timing is particularly propitious because, as our first
post-Cold war President, you have an opportunity to take this
important step without many of the national security constraints
that have limited government candor with the American people in
the past.

As an interested and concerned citizen, I stand ready to assist
in whatever I can do that you might find useful.

Sincerely,


Laurance S. Rockefeller

A February 5, 1996 letter from Rockefeller to the Clinton's
Science Advisor gave further indication about just how involved
Hillary was in the UFO process. This process involved getting
the critical UFO information to the President, so he in turn
could initiate UFO disclosure.

As a part of this effort to gather information, Science Advisor
Gibbons had offered to "approach the Air Force, the Central
Intelligence Agency and NASA on this project." The information
gathered would be presented to Rockefeller, and if need be the
President. In addition Rockefeller wrote of the effort to gather
UFO information from the various agencies, "You indicated that
you will keep the First Lady's Office informed, and we shall as
well."

Further details about Hillary Clinton's connection to the White
House UFO Initiative came from Dan Smith. Smith is a researcher
and was a regular contact with CIA scientist Dr. Ronald
Pandolfi. Pandolfi, as mentioned before, was the CIA agent
called in by the Clinton White House to provide information on
UFOs when Rockefeller made his first approach to the White
House.. Smith spoke of Pandolfi's UFO role in the White House,
and his ties to Hillary.

"Ron's job relative to the Clintons was to prevent Hillary from
trying to find out who Jim Woolsey's (CIA Director) sources
were, since they would have had to know the real story in order
explain to Jim why George Bush, Sr. should not be given the
content of it. Hillary was trying and is still trying to get
back to the horse's mouth. Exactly what her motives are, are not
clear to me."

The final connection between Hillary and the Rockefeller UFO
Initiative is also the strangest. In 1996 and 1997 Hillary took
a lot of negative press about her new age occult leaning.
Various writers linked many New Age personalities to Hillary.
These included writer Marianne Williamson, and yogi to the stars
Ken Scott Nateshvar.

Then a couple months after Hillary helped edit the Rockefeller
UFO letter to the President, Hillary's name became tied to the
Director of the "Foundation for Mind Research" Jean Houston.
When the story of the Houston connection became public Houston
became known as Hillary Clinton's "Eleanor Roosevelt Conduit."

According to a book "The Choice" by Bob Woodward, Hillary met
from late 1994 till March 1996 with Houston. In the Woodward
account, Houston led the first lady through "imaginary
conversations" with her hero Eleanor Roosevelt, and also former
Indian Prime Minister Ghandi.

When the story broke Hillary Clinton's office put out a
statement denying that the first lady was participating in a
seance. Houston herself put out a statement that she was not a
psychic. The sessions with Roosevelt and Ghandi were described
as "brainstorming" sessions "visualizing" what Eleanor Roosevelt
"might have said." The statement read in part,

"While I have had a number of conversations with Jean Houston,
it is not true that she is my spiritual advisor... During the
hours of free-wheeling discussion, Jean Houston suggested that I
imagine a conversation with Eleanor Roosevelt, who grappled with
the difficult social issues of her day. This was an interesting
intellectual exercise to help spark my own thoughts; it was a
brainstorming session for my book - - not a spiritual event.....
And I do wonder what Eleanor Roosevelt might think of all
this."

The importance of Jean Houston's subsequent role in the UFO
picture came in a fax sent from Rockefeller's lawyer, Henry
Diamond, to Jack Gibbons dated June 6, 1996. This was the same
time frame when Hillary and Jean Houston were meeting to talk to
Eleanor Roosevelt, and the same time frame when Rockefeller was
meeting with Hillary to discuss his UFO strategy.

The fax sent by Diamond was a confirmation that Diamond,
Laurance Rockefeller, and Laurance's senior person in New York,
Wes Frye, would be meeting with Gibbons the next day June 7. In
the fax Diamond thanked Gibbons for the meeting, and told the
President's Science Advisor that the subject Rockefeller wanted
to discuss during the meeting was Hillary's friend Jean Houston.
Attached to the fax was an letter from Houston to Rockefeller
outlining her views on UFOs and also Rockefeller's effort to
effect disclosure UFO disclosure in the White House.

"Thank-you for sending me the documentation concerning
Unidentified Flying Objects... It has long been our position
that the truth of this matter should be made known. Our feeling
is that the likely effects would be more positive than negative
. . .So, Mr. Rockefeller, we congratulate you on your part in
making this very formidable and readable presentation of a very
important subject. How does one go about using it to break
through decades of stonewalling and denial and get the veil
lifted? We would certainly be pleased to play a part in bringing
about that end. Let me invite you to come and visit us and we
would certainly look forward to discussing the UFO problem as
well as other matters of mutual interest."

The Houston to Rockefeller letter was dated March 18, 1996.
Houston invited Rockefeller to meet with her at her home just
outside of New York in April. The meeting undoubtablely took
place, and by June Rockefeller thought Jean Houston important
enough to arrange a special meeting in Washington with Gibbons.
Hillary's input and UFO connection to Houston during this
critical period have not yet been made public. The two were,
according to Hillary, meeting on a number of occasions during
this period.

The prominent role of Hillary in the Rockefeller UFO Initiative
should not come as any surprise when all her public actions
regarding the UFO subject are viewed. Hillary time and again
spoke of UFOs, UFO sightings, and the concept of the "alien
invasion," in her speeches, and in her statements to the press.


-30-









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   Sep > Sep 14

             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Easton

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 02:50:46 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:14:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Easton


 >From: David Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 18:38:01 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001

Dave wrote:

 >>From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >>Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:08:13 +0100

 >Georgina,

[...]

 >Without realising it, you have revealed who it is who _truly_
 >hasn't a clue about how the MOD works. And you seriously
 >underestimate how easy it is to pull the wool over the eyes of
 >ufologists with long standing knowledge and experience, as Nick
 >Redfern and Jenny clearly have.

 >I'm not one for making predictions, but this time can assure you
 >that very soon you will be eating your own words.


Dave,

I suspect you might have been commenting from an informed
position.

I'm pleased to confirm that contentions previously expressed can
evidently be proven as factual.

Courtesy of Jenny Randles, we can now further appreciate the
issues in their true context.

During December l995, before Nick Pope's first book and
prerequisite marketing, Jenny conducted a filmed interview with
him.

Jenny notes that the tape of that interview records the
following:

I asked if there was any British case where a radar confirmation
of a visually observed target occurred and that was not
explained and here was his answer:

"I am not aware of a British case - no".

I then asked him about DSTI and DI 55 - the "other departments
where the reports went to" - as I put it. "Can you comment on
whether the reports actually go to these departments and what
they do with them?"

(I already knew because Ralph Noyes had happily told me this and
what the initials stood for - but I didn't let on to Nick, of
course!)

He said: "I can't actually tell you what (the initials) stand
for, simply because that's not what we do. But what I can tell
you is that basically those departments - there's nothing
sinister or spooky about them - it's simply people casting an
expert eye over the data and helping us in Sec AS with the
actual business of investigation. It really is a case of two or
three heads being better than one".

So I asked why MoD reports are just scraps of paper with no
evidence for any evaluation. "Surely some evaluation is done?
This work done by the other departments. Do you see that
evaluation?'"

He said: "Very often the only evaluation that is done is a quick
glance to see if there is any threat. Now this is a grey area.
But I think in the 95 per cent of cases where there is a
reasonable explanation you wouldn't necessarily expect to see
any written material  - someone would simply look at it and say
'that's obviously an airship'."

So I pointed out that with a case like Rendlesham "surely some
kind of evaluation work has to be done? Many possibilities
arise. It could be a terrorist attack for instance".

He said: "I think the Rendlesham Forest case is a case apart and
is very much the prestige case of British UFOlogy. Now
unfortunately I've not seen the evaluation work that went on the
Rendlesham Forest case. There are some papers that I have not
seen".

"Do you mean that these are somewhere else?" I asked.

"No, what I mean is that the Rendlesham Forest file that I have
seen starts from the News of the World article - which was
obviously some time after the event. And although there is
reference made to evaluation being carried out at the time.
That's the material that I've not seen".

"So where is it then?"

"The problem is that when DS 8 evolved into Sec AS in l985 all
the files were closed down and material was chopped and changed
and I'm afraid that's the way governments tend to work sometime.
And its an extremely inexact science. So the answer to the
question is - I hope that its somewhere in the system in the
contemporary file for that year rather than the specific
Rendlesham Forest case file that I had which was started when
the public reaction to the event started".
[END]


The above correlates entirely with responses Nick Pope gave to
'UFO Magazine' in 1996 and what was explained to Nick Redfern,
Dave Clarke and Andy Roberts.

Nick Pope has therefore previously substantiated never having
access to that investigative documentation, recently released by
the Ministry of Defence.

This is the "evaluation work" which Pope acknowledged was, "the
material that I've not seen".


Nick Redfern comments:

"Nick [Pope] told me, on audio-tape, that the Rendlesham file
that was in his office only contained the Halt memo; the News Of
The World newspaper piece from 1983 (and related news
clippings); and correspondence with members of the public.

He also told me (on tape too) that he had not seen any documents
that related in any way to any sort of MoD investigation of the
case. Moreover, he went on to say that in his opinion no such
papers existed.

He also denied (on tape again) that the file he saw contained
the covering letter that Sqdn. Leader Moreland sent to the MoD
with Halt's memo. The file does contain that memo and Nick's
only response now is that he doesn't know why he told me this.

Therefore, cover-up or foul-up, the fact is that Pope didn't say
anything along the lines of "Oh, I may have seen other papers
and files that I can't discuss because of the constraints of the
Official Secrets Act."

He was very clear about what was in the file to which he had
access and very clear in his views that the MoD had not
investigated the case". [END]


My appreciation, I'm sure echoed by others, for Nick and Jenny's
assistance in definitively resolving some of the questions
raised.

I trust we can draw that proverbial line under the proven facts.


Nick Redfern also asks, "Can anyone shed any light on Nick's
curious (and to me totally baffling) assertion that the Moreland
covering letter wasn't in the file and that he had never seen
it?"

Nick, if I recall correctly, in another interview or statement,
Pope mentions that as he couldn't locate the original
'Rendlesham' file, he had opened up a new file himself.

That could explain why the 'Pope' file had so little in it - a
copy of Halt's memo and that NoTW article were publicly
available.

In order to hopefully determine this, and some significantly
related questions, I've asked Secretariat(Air Staff)2a1a if they
can confirm when their 'Rendlesham' file was 'rediscovered'.

I'm curious, because in 'Voyager Newsletter No. 20', I wrote:

We can now say that Pope was evidently oblivious to many key
facts.

Yet, the clues were there, as I emphasised in the first
'Voyager' newsletter published, during September 1998:

Contrary to Nick's conjecture that Col Halt's memo "simply ended
up in a file", is the information provided to myself last year
by Gaynor South at Secretariat(Air Staff)2a1a.

She wrote:

"You have questioned whether the Ministry of Defence thoroughly
investigated the events which are alleged to have taken place at
RAF Woodbridge/Rendlesham Forest. From Departmental records
available for the period in question, we have established that
all available information was looked at at the time by air
defence experts who were satisfied that nothing had occurred to
suggest that the UK Air Defence Region had been breached by
unauthorised foreign military activity on the nights in
question. In the absence of evidence corroborating Col Halt's
memo, which was sent some two weeks after the events in 1980,
and in the light of the Department's air defence remit, no
action was then deemed necessary".

This seems to be a categorical assurance "Departmental records
available for the period in question" do exist and substantiate
that Halt's report was investigated.
[END OF EXTRACT]


As I realised at the time, there surely had to be some documented
basis for Gaynor's verification.

Note that she says, "From Departmental records available for the
period in question...".

Wouldn't you agree it sounds like the original file had come to
light by this time?

Let's see what their reply tells us.


The question which remains unresolved, as accurately highlighted,
is how do we equate the now clarified facts with Pope's current
assertions:

"The documents come from a file (or more accurately, from several
different files) that I used during my tour of duty in Sec(AS)2a,
from 1991 to 1994".

Oh, not overlooking he immediately added:

"I'm pleased though surprised that some Defence Intelligence
Staff papers have been released, because although I worked with
the DIS frequently in the course of my official research and
investigation into the UFO phenomenon, this was a part of my MOD
work that I could never previously have discussed with the media
or the public. Perhaps appropriately, about the most recent
paper on the file is a briefing that I wrote for the Press
Office in January 1994. I was, of course, putting forward the
_no defence significance_ party line".


Whilst at the same time, admirably, suggesting to a colleague
how, concerning claims our MoD were involved in a 'UFO cover
up', "the less likely it is that this view will get an airing",
if the Ministry were comprehensively forthcoming!

Doubtless Pope will equally ensure that his informed view, the
antipathy of 'UFO Magazine's' claims, will receive an airing at
their impending conference, where Pope is a speaker.

What better opportunity.


Alternatively, perhaps someone will enlighten the supposedly
clueless about 'how the MoD really works'. Or how Nick Pope
does.

Otherwise, Game, Set and Match...


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk








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   Sep > Sep 14

               Re: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike' - Evans

From: Evans <shooter@afterimagephoto.tv>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:41:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:31:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike' - Evans


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 9 Sep 2001 22:33:16 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike'

 >On Sunday September 9 - Day 44 Lara Johnstone made the decision
 >to end her hunger strike to encourage President Bush to fulfill
 >his promise to Charles Huffer to disclose the truth about UFOs.

<snip>

 >I am sure that those closest to Lara consider her a hero, and
 >will join her in a minute to help her in any new plans she has
 >for disclosure. She has been a prime example of sacrifice,
 >determination, and selflessness. Her contribution to this field
 >will long be remembered.

 >Grant Cameron

 >"Are you ready for the revolution?"
 >Lara Johnstone, a California woman who began a Hunger Strike for
 >Disclosure on July 28th.

Sheesh.

The old "Three Hunger Strikes and You're Out" bit.

What a load. And to think I was really worried about her
welfare. Well, Alfred, looks like you're safe, now. Not quite
the ending you were expecting, though, eh? ;)


Roger









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   Sep > Sep 14

                Re: CE: - Wired News Covers UFO Disclosure -

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:57:01 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:33:11 -0400
Subject: Re: CE: - Wired News Covers UFO Disclosure -


 >Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 02:09:52 EDT
 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@AOL.COM>
 >Subject: Re: Wired News Covers UFO Disclosure
 >To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

<snip>

 >Military jet were scrambled from a nearby US aircraft carrier
 >in the north Atlantic. ... UFO, which was monitored on multiple
 >radars including NORAD.

<snip>

Without this bit of information which you selectively ignored,
your "proof" that this CSETI witness was lying vanishes Brad.
Yes, a SINGLE radar may not be able to track a UFO moving so
rapidly over such large distances in the time for one sweep of
the radar, but MULTIPLE radars can. There would be no reason to
scramble jets from a nearby aircraft carrier, as this "liar"
witness also claims, unless the UFO remained in the area for a
quite a while and reduced its speed enough for an interception
attempt.

<snip>

 >Let's move on to the next set of liars, ... and directly saw
 >clear daytime photograph from a satellite with a disc shaped
 >UFO, which cast a SHADOW on the earth beneath it. ... saw
 >strips of film showing extensive ARTIFICIAL structures on the
 >dark side of the MOON which were there result of the Lunar
 >Orbiter overflights.

<snip>

Just check out the many low resolution satellite images of
alleged chemtrails along with their shadows to convince yourself
Brad that a disc shaped UFO (or thick cloud?) with its shadow can
also be observed from space.

As for artificial structures on the Moon, Gordon Cooper claims
to have seen such things on the Earth from much higher altitudes
during his Mercury and Gemini spaceflights.

Although no artificial structures (including Santa's UFO?) were
reported on the Moon by the astronauts themselves, while
orbiting the Moon on Apollo 8 in 1968, Jim Lovell is recorded to
have said "I wonder whether I'd think it [the Moon] was
inhabited or not.". Mike Collins on Earth replied "You don't see
anybody waving, do you?". Makes one wonder if the astronauts
knew of or had similar experiences with ET aliens of their own
as Steven Greer's "World Famous Astronaut" is alleged to have.

<snip>

 >Our next CSETI liar is too stupid and unfamiliar with NSA and
 >intelligence basics to know that "cryptoGRAPHERS" were at NSA
 >Headquarters at Ft. Meade, Maryland, ... CryptoLOGISTS and
 >cryptANALYSTS are the ones who decipher and decrypt -- this
 >liar is too dumb to know the difference. ... This kind of
 >scientifically illiterate trash would get CSETI laughed out of
 >every physics dept in the world and make them a laughingstock
 >at any Congressional hearing if someone knowledgeable tipped
 >off the hearing staff.

<snip>

Your proof that these other CSETI witness must also be liars is
not convincing to me Brad. How many times have you heard
educated people say things like "The speeding UFO flew just like
a comet." or "I filmed the UFO with my video camera"? Are they
liars too? Although their observations are correct, sometimes I
would get a laugh too from reading the physics interpretation
for experiments students performed here in our labs.

<snip>

 >Here is another legitimate witness, astronaut Gordon Cooper,
 >whose testimony has been ruined by inserting or allowing
 >bold-faced lies about a coverup that supposedly whisked away
 >the photos from the May 3, 1957, incident at Edwards AFB that
 >were "NEVER SEEN AGAIN" -- except as it turns out by THOUSANDS
 >of people who bought Brad Steiger's book with 3 of the PHOTOS
 >in it!!!

<snip>

In my copy of this same edition of Brad Steiger's book, 'Project
Blue Book', it does include 3 poor quality images of something
at Edwards AFB back in 5/2/57 (a typo, or did Brad too allow
some of his own bold-face lies in his book?). According to
Gordon Cooper in his book, 'Leap of Faith', images of this UFO
which set down on three landing gear (none are visible in the
images in Brad Steiger's book) about 50 yards away was shot with
35mm and 4x5 still cameras AND motion picture film. Have you
Brad ever seen all these images in the Project Blue Book
archives? I haven't.

<snip>

 >Our last liar has one of the most preposterous stories of all
 >-- concerning ET "ejection pod" spurportedly found in the South
 >Atlantic. I am going to bet we didn't have any ICBM tests into
 >the South Atlantic in August 1963: ... What I want to know is
 >why I should support (a) such a pack of liars and cheats who
 >tell such mammoth whoppers,

<snip>

What is the basis for dismissing this account Brad other than it
sounds too preposterous to be true. It certainly doesn't prove
it is a lie. You have done such a good job debunking UFO stories
in the past Brad that I expected better from you, even though I
too am not a big fan of Steven Greer or his approach either.


Nick Balaskas








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               Re: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike' - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 23:45:48 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:35:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike' - Gates


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 9 Sep 2001 22:33:16 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike'


 >On Sunday September 9 - Day 44 Lara Johnstone made the decision
 >to end her hunger strike to encourage President Bush to fulfill
 >his promise to Charles Huffer to disclose the truth about UFOs.
 >She discussed her decision to end the hunger strike, prior to
 >ending it, with some of the supporters who had been with her for
 >most of her effort to achieve disclosure.

Bush didn't "promise" Huffer that he would disclose the truth
about UFOs, he only dodged the question to Cheney.

 >When I talked to her Sunday evening, she said the hunger strike
 >was supposed to focus on disclosure. It was now focused on her
 >and the time to end it had come. Minutes later at rest stop on

Disclosure was just the latest activist item on her agenda.
Since it didn't reap gobs of publicity and national media
attention some suppose that she is going to move on to the next
protest or hunger strike in support or, or against some other
political issue.

<snip>

 >Despite a letter from her congress woman Barbara Lee requesting
 >that the President provide Lara Johnstone with a reply to her
 >July 26, 2001 letter, it appears that the President will not be
 >forced to answer mail from constituents.

No, let me repeat _NO_ president actually answers every letter
sent to them. If she honestly believed that she is truly doesn't
understand how Washington works.

For example, during the Clinton years they had mail room
volunteers that opened the White House mail. One article about
the volunteers said that the President only _actually_ saw a
small sampling of the letters, i.e. those that the volunteers
thought were an excellent letter about a particular subject.

Keep in mind the White House gets mail from everybody about
everything. One article stated that the White House gets upward
of 15-30,000 letters per day on an assortment of issues, gripes,
complaints and complements. Much of the mail is screened. For
example a letter about UFOs that is actually answered is likely
written by some Colonel or Capt, or says something like he is
responding on behalf of the President blah blah.

Note the same is true of Congressional staffs. I have been in
the rooms and when they get a phone call, or receive a letter
the staff dutifully logs what the person is writing about and at
the end of the day they go to Congressperson X or Senator Y and
tell them that out of 250 letters and calls, so many were in
support of this issue, so many were against, etc etc. The nice
signed letter you get back from your Congressperson is usually
done with a signature machine or sorts...can't remember the
exact name of what they call it.

 >Lara told me that, in the end, Mr. Bush had no support to make a
 >UFO disclosure. The American people and even many inside of the
 >UFO community have many issues on their mind ahead of
 >Disclosure. In order to make such a big move the President needs
 >broad consensus. It was evident this did not exist.

The simple fact is that Lara's so called hunger strike did not
invoke the response she wanted so then instead of stating the
truth that her effort did not work, she trys to blame the fact
that Bush had no support etc etc. Bush never "promised" or
"signed a contract" stating that he would disclose all UFO info.
He simply dodged the question over to Cheney

 >Even many inside the UFO community were not prepared to do
 >anything more than talk about the issue. On many occasions I
 >discussed this fact with Lara. She stated that she was quite
 >surprised at how different the UFO community was than other
 >protest communities.

Obviously Lara had it in her mind that the UFO community is some
kind of protest community.

 >The attacks on Lara from the UFO community, particularly the UFO
 >UpDates List took their toll. Lara told me when asked for a
 >comment about this said that naysayers exist in all movements.
 >However, in other movements those striving to achieve an
 >objective join together and ignore the noise. This does not
 >happen as much in the UFO community, and is maybe one of the
 >things that can be learned from her hunger strike.

This is not true of the Environmental movements whose in
fighting over issues is legendary. When the woman spent the
year in the Redwood, many people of similar belief questioned
the reality and the reasons why she did it.

<snip>

 >Many will say that the hunger strike is a failure because Bush
 >was able to just ignore the issue and continue on with his plans
 >to drill for more oil, and ignore treaties dealing with weapons
 >in space and green house gases.

UFO disclosure has nothing to do with drilling for oil, or ABM
issues. In fact it was many people who were anti ABM and or oil
drilling saw the UFO issue as a tie in to get more support for
their movements and beliefs. Everybody on the UFO side
"welcomed" the support and saw it as a tie in for disclosure.
In the end both sides were attempting to use each other to
accomplish their purpose.

<snip>

 >Lara will continue to work for disclosure as she still believes
 >this one of the critical issues of our time. If in the future
 >she believes that a hunger strike would be supported, and that
 >it is the thing that would be needed she said she would do it
 >again.

I would imagine that _if_ significant publicity could be generated
she would be back in the thick of it so to speak.

<snip>

 >"Are you ready for the revolution?"
 >Lara Johnstone, a California woman who began a Hunger Strike for
 >Disclosure on July 28th.

Shouldn't this now read "I am ending my hunger strike." As to the
so called revolution it never started.

Cheers,

Robert










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   Sep > Sep 14

               Re: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike' - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:50:52 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:40:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike' - McCoy


Hello all,

 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 9 Sep 2001 22:33:16 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike'

At first, I was concerend about Lara, but now in the wake of the
(shudder) "disclosure"  that it all was merely a rather strict
but healthy diet, I am going to take the gloves off, and I will
not bring politics into my reply . Unlike this flaccid attempt
at political statement, this so-called 'hunger-strike'/liquid
diet.

 >On Sunday September 9 - Day 44 Lara Johnstone made the decision
 >to end her hunger strike to encourage President Bush to fulfill
 >his promise to Charles Huffer to disclose the truth about UFOs.
 >She discussed her decision to end the hunger strike, prior to
 >ending it, with some of the supporters who had been with her for
 >most of her effort to achieve disclosure.

 >When I talked to her Sunday evening, she said the hunger strike
 >was supposed to focus on disclosure. It was now focused on her
 >and the time to end it had come. Minutes later at rest stop on
 >her bus trip from Oakland to Los Angeles to speak at a
 >conference Lara stopped and ate a burger. "It was a small
 >vegetable one," she told me in a phone call minutes later.

Maybe her "Juiceman" broke down.

 >Despite a letter from her congress woman Barbara Lee requesting
 >that the President provide Lara Johnstone with a reply to her
 >July 26, 2001 letter, it appears that the President will not be
 >forced to answer mail from constituents.

As told on this list, he never (as I said) heard of her and it
is likely that all the mail got sent to NASA anyway.

 >Lara told me that, in the end, Mr. Bush had no support to make a
 >UFO disclosure. The American people and even many inside of the
 >UFO community have many issues on their mind ahead of
 >Disclosure. In order to make such a big move the President needs
 >broad consensus. It was evident this did not exist.

Yep, and it would take a Klingon battle fleet obsuring a full
moon before any kind "consensus" would be achived. Sorry, but
that's what it would take.

 >Even many inside the UFO community were not prepared to do
 >anything more than talk about the issue. On many occasions I
 >discussed this fact with Lara. She stated that she was quite
 >surprised at how different the UFO community was than other
 >protest communities.

"Protest communities" - that's a new one on me - Anarchists are a
"protest community", Earth Firsters are a "protest community" ,
the UFO community a protest community? Sorry you've got the
wrong idea. The UFO community has the consistency and the
direction of a large herd of Cats. Boy ,did Greer give you a bad
idea (IMHO) Lara should have looked a little further before she
decided to go on her diet.

 >It appears to this author that the UFO community is a community
 >in diapers whose time to contribute to the world is still some
 >time in the future. I told Lara that if her effort for
 >disclosure worked UFO people would become the new power, and
 >we'd surely blow up the world in the first week with our
 >fighting.

Depends on who was in charge of the new "power" Greer, no
thanks. and this is an insult to the people who are legit, and
trying make it all work, even the skeptics (Oh how I wish that
his Darkness, Duke of Mendoza had dropped by. <G>) to ask the
questions and present the experiences of their own lives.

 >The attacks on Lara from the UFO community, particularly the UFO
 >UpDates List took their toll. Lara told me when asked for a
 >comment about this said that naysayers exist in all movements.
 >However, in other movements those striving to achieve an
 >objective join together and ignore the noise. This does not
 >happen as much in the UFO community, and is maybe one of the
 >things that can be learned from her hunger strike.

 >Lara will be putting up a statement on September 11 about her
 >decision to end the hunger strike. It will appear on her web
 >site.

 >www.bushufodisclosure.com

 >Many will say that the hunger strike is a failure because Bush
 >was able to just ignore the issue and continue on with his plans
 >to drill for more oil, and ignore treaties dealing with weapons
 >in space and green house gases.

What ever one's opinion of Dubya, Lara's non-hungerstrike was a
non-event. and I hazard a guess that it simply was a gesture by
some-whomever they were, to gauge the UFO community not for its
sheer cussed bullheadedness (one of it charms, I might add.) but
how gullible they as a whole were. I'm talking about Greer here
and you Mr. Cameron. Did you actually think that there would be
a great revolution, from this herd of Cats? Gee ,you _didn't_ do
your homework did you?

<snip>

 >disclosure will come. Let's all pray for $20.00 a gallon gas
 >prices.

Like Greer's disclosure that ain't gonna happen pard, and if it
did you and your elitist cronys would be the fist ones to howl
like a mashed cat (sorry I've been dealing with cat that has a
serious case of 'night crazies'-hence all the reference to
cats.).

 >People are not ready for disclosure yet. Perhaps that is why the
 >aliens have not ended the mystery with their own landing on the
 >White House lawn, or by cutting in during Monday night football
 >to announce their arrival. They can see the baby bottles
 >sticking out of our back pockets, and know we have things to
 >work out first.

Quite frankly even the White House Lawn would be debunked. I'm
not shure that Monday Night Football would be a good idea
either, Depending on who's playing and which Quarter they chose
to announce,how close the game was.

 >Lara wished to thank all those who have offered her support over
 >the many days of her effort. She was moved by many of the
 >letters, and considers many of those she has met friends for
 >life.

 >Lara will continue to work for disclosure as she still believes
 >this one of the critical issues of our time. If in the future
 >she believes that a hunger strike would be supported, and that
 >it is the thing that would be needed she said she would do it
 >again.

Depends if she needs to lose another 20-30 lbs. I suppose.

 >Speaking on behalf of those close to Lara I would like to thank
 >Lara for her contribution to the Disclosure movement. Even
 >though they were never made public, we know the dramatic things
 >she lost in taking on this challenge. They were things that we
 >more earth bound souls would never think of giving up.

Oh, give me a break, Cameron, did she miscarry, did she lose her
hair, or just some unwanted fat. You don't even know what some
of Us in the UFO community have given up in our lives either, as
for eathbound, have you ever been inside a forest fire, seen the
sky at 45,000 feet? Watched Shoemaker-Levy make holes in Jupiter
with your own telescope? or, on a warm August night, see a shiny
metallic disk, fly in and out of your life leaving more
questions than answers? I resent being called 'Earth Bound', and
that somehow a liquid diet is the moral equivalent of Mahatma
Ghandi.

 >I am sure that those closest to Lara consider her a hero, and
 >will join her in a minute to help her in any new plans she has
 >for disclosure. She has been a prime example of sacrifice,
 >determination, and selflessness. Her contribution to this field
 >will long be remembered.

Sorry, my pantheon of Heros tend not to have clay feet. Or are
devotees of some insipid flim-flam artist(s) as for being
remembered, I'd like to think that, somewhere, Andy Warhol is
about to ring the old 15 minute gong on this charade.


GT McCoy









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   Sep > Sep 14

                     CCCRN News: Back From The Prairies

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 06:35:43 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:42:07 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Back From The Prairies


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

September 11, 2001

_____________________________


BACK FROM THE PRAIRIES


Just a quick note to those on the mailing list that I am now
back home in Vancouver after a very busy and eventful two weeks
out in the prairies for Crop Watch 2001. Along with various and
much-appreciated field research assistants, I was able to
conduct ground and aerial studies of eight formations, in
Saskatchewan and Alberta. Others have also been investigated by
other CCCRN assistants and others that I was unable to get to,
in Manitoba and BC. As of today, September 11, sixteen
formations have been reported so far in Canada. Photographs and
video of the formations we investigated will be available soon,
and the full reports will be added to the web site as soon as I
can do it.

The weather was very hot and dry most of the time, with
mosquitoes en-masse in Alberta! But it was well worth it, for
what we were able to accomplish this time out. Being in Midale,
Saskatchewan, during which time four new formations appeared
(seven formations altogether within a six day period ) proved
most valuable, as we were able to document them in near pristine
condition, with no entry pathways, etc. initially visible (in
tramline-less fields), within hours or a day or two at most
after they were known to have appeared. We would just be
finishing investigating a formation, then be dashing off again
upon word of more new ones! I have found some interesting
photographic anomalies on some of the pictures I took (and also
experienced intermittent camera failure while flying over some
formations); the news crew from CTV News had a complete camera
battery failure inside one formation, as well as other audio
link problems with the CBC Newsworld crew, just to make things a
bit more interesting. Also very strong dowsing reactions, for
several people including myself, inside the Drayton Valley,
Alberta formation.

Media coverage of this year's formations has included CBC
Newsworld, CTV News, Global TV (for the new Global National news
program), Partners in Motion, The Calgary Herald, The Prairie
Post, The Leader Post, The Ottawa Citizen and various other
newspaper articles and radio programs. A complete listing
(current and upcoming) will be added to the Media page on the
web site, again as soon as I can get to it.

I will also write up my annual summary report for this year's
crop of reports, after things have quieted down a bit more
again.

Please also now use my regular e-mail again for online
correspondence: psa@look.ca

Paul Anderson

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events. CCCRN
News is available free by subscription:

To subscribe to CCCRN News, send a blank e-mail to:
cccrnnews-subscribe@topica.com

To unsubscribe from CCCRN News, send a blank e-mail to:
cccrnnews-unsubscribe@topica.com

CCCRN News Archive:
http://www.topica.com/lists/cccrnnews/read


The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which investigates the crop circle
phenomenon and other possibly related phenomena in Canada,
creating a liason between researchers, farmers, the public, the
media and scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma

Main Office:
202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

Provincial Branches:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/contacts.html

Circle Phenomena in Canada 2001:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/circlescanada01.html

Fields of Dreams Webcast Radio Show:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/fieldsofdreams.html


� Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2001









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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Sep > Sep 14

                    Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 03:01:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:43:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Aldrich


 >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:19:54 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Jones

 >>From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 08:14:17 EDT
 >>Subject: Nazi UFOs And All That
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Tim, long time no see.

 >How's the married father these days?

 >I wonder how many Americans realise that man was put on the moon
 >by the same man the built the V2?

 >I wonder how many really realise what the Paper-clip conspiracy
 >was all about, for it wasn't just getting German scientists out
 >of Germany.

 >Kindest regards

 >In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.

 >Sean Jones


Well, duh, not many of us don't remember watching von Braun on
the national Disneyland TV program in the pre-sputnik 1950's,
because many Americans were born after this.

Paperclip conspiracy? How interesting to have a conspiracy which
is headlined in the newspapers discussed on the radio and
television and vigoriously debated by various government
agencies.

Ever hear of the spoils of war? First was Overcast. At the time
it was thought that the war with Japan would drag on in at least
1946. Overcast was an attempt to use German technology, especial
rocket technology against the Japanese.

After the island fighting in the Pacific, the military was under
a lot of pressure to use poison gas on the Japanese in Okinawa.
There were headlines many newspapers and on the editorial pages
said, "Give our Marines a break, gas the Japs." General Howlin'
Mad Smith recounted this in his autobiograph. Considering that
the Olympic (Majestic) operation against Japan foresaw over one
million Allied casualities, you can see why there was an effort
to exploit German technology to bring an early end to the War.

The War ended against Japan and Overcast became Paperclip.

I remember seeing newsreels at the movie theatres about the
missile program at White Sands and then at Red Stone with
retrospective background shots showing the German scientists
arriving at Wright Field--all standing around smoking cigaretts
like crazy and looking pretty miserable--then cuts to V-2 shots
at White Sands.

Paperclip conspiracy? Give it a rest. Sell this drivel somewhere
else. Most were aware of what was going on at the time. Ever
hear of the record album, "A Night Completely Wasted with Tom
Lehr." History books are wonderful things, but do no good left
unopen on the shelves.


Jan Aldrich









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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 14

                            Re: Irony - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 05:30:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:45:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Irony - Lehmberg


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Irony
 >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:41:13 +0000

 >>Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 11:19:50 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez
 >>Subject: Re: Irony

 >>>From: Alfred Lehmberg
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 >>>Subject: Irony
 >>>Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 18:41:33 -0500

<snip>

 >List,

 >I think we should appoint John as ambassador to Mars, or the Nth
 >dimension, or wherever the little buggers come from. His
 >patience, gentility, and sense of fairplay are non pareil.


That's not doting patience with an insolent child, Mr. Hall;
that's respect for a fellow sentient being. I think it's
interesting that you can't, don't, or won't see the
difference...

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.








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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Sep > Sep 14

                  Re: World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:33:11 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:47:38 -0400
Subject: Re: World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris


 >From: James Oberg <JamesOberg@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 14:12:40 EDT
 >Subject: Re: World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris Recently?
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 14:07:05 -0400
 >>To: "02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris Recently?

 >>From: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>Thanks to Harry Tokarz, Larry Fenwick and Nick Balaskas for
 >>bringing this to our attention.....

 >>ebk

 >>_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

 >>World Famous Astronaut Had UFO Debris Recently?

 >>Stephen Greer on a radio show on Thursday night of last week -
 >>08/30/01 - claimed that he's been contacted by a world-famous
 >>astronaut whose name he cannot disclose, for now.

 >>http://www.artbell.com/topics0801.html

 >If this is real, the 'anonoymous' astronaut is a fool to think
 >his 'leak' won't be traced directly back to him. Hey, just get a
 >lit of ALL astronauts who have talked to secdef Cohen about UFO
 >samples, and eliminate the innocent ones.

 >I suspect the namelessness is another Greer gimmick, probably to
 >pre-hype another tall tale from dear Gordon Cooper, who knows
 >how to please the audiences he has chosen to appear before.


Hi James and List,

Your last sentence suggests that Gordon Cooper is making up UFO
stories. Is this the intent of your statement? If so what is the
basis for this statement?


Regards,

Don Ledger










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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 14

                            Re: Irony - Johnstone

From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:10:29 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:56:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Irony - Johnstone


 >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 11:19:50 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Irony

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Irony
 >>Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 18:41:33 -0500

 >Hi Alfred, hi All,

 >You wrote:

 >>I'm glad I don't gag easily on irony. Those seemingly so
 >>concerned with Ms. Johnstone's health and welfare previously are
 >>now astonishingly critical that she's not being anywhere near
 >>hard enough on herself. Perhaps we should all try for a smidgeon
 >>more consistency.

 >I can't speak for anybody else but my perceived "inconsistency"
 >coincided with my learning of _what_ Lara's "hunger-strike"
 >consisted of.

Interesting, Mr. Velez. In the second week of my hungerstrike, I
forget the day, I was a host on the radio Show Strange Days
Indeed, in which you were on the show too! I recall stating at
the time exactly what I was consuming, I made it VERY CLEAR that
I was NOT on a Gandhi Style fast, but it seemed at the time that
you refused to want to hear me!

You wanted to fall all over yourself about how dangerous my fast
was, no matter how much I told you what my fast actually
consisted of!

I can now see why! You misled _yourself_, you confused
_yourself_. I have been totally open abuot what I have been
consuming, how _fat_ I was, and anything else anyone wanted to
know!

Call Steven Bassett and he will tell you that when he heard
about my fast, he called me and gave me a 2 hour grilling asking
me any question he wanted. I answered every single one with
total honesty! I appreciated him for calling and for giving me a
grilling, cause I imagine that is a responsible thing to do for
anyone who wished to support me. Grant Cameron gave me a similar
grilling, as did Randy Kitchur! ;-)

If you wanted to know anything, all you had to do was call and
ask Mr. Velez! I have nothing to hide! My telephone number is
splattered all over the web! All you had to do, in order to find
out anything you wanted to know, was pick up the phone! and
guess what, I'd answer it!

You wish to deceive yourself, and blame it on me! That's
fine.... It says more about _John Velez_ and how you define your
_integrity_ and _honesty_ than it does about Lara Johnstone!

Lara Johnstone may be an idealistic woman who dreams of changing
the world and who does not care about being skinny to live upto
some American sick dream of what people should look like, but
who will go on a fast(diet,hungerstrike) for honesty, for truth
and to make a statement that she cares! Whatever you think of
her actions -- dumb, dumber, kind, stupid, or courageous! That's
your prerogative!

The day you stop eating solid foods for 44 days, get evicted
three times in those 44 days due to your fast, lose 3 friends,
live in your car, give up your employment to focus on the fast,
are totally open with anyone who calls asking for information,
and continue to take the barrage of negativity from people _who
say the care_, then Mr. Velez, I'll take your criticism as
valid!

 >>Moreover, dismissed as a fat girl with a commie agenda,
 >>conveniently losing weight for 15 minutes of fame... is contrary
 >>to the reality of a nation functioning as the Rome of the 21st
 >>century, a nation much better served by strident criticism than
 >>reactionary and uninformed adulation.
 >
 >Tell me the truth Alfred, (at first) didn't you think that Lara
 >was engaged in a traditionally defined, political hunger-strike?

If anyone did -- they made it up in thier own heads! Anyone who
knows anything about hungerstrikes, knows there are a multitude
of ways to do a hungerstrike, and the way to find out what type
the person is on, is to ASK THEM!!!

 >I know I did.

Well, then you have nobody to blame but yourself! I had the
information out there from the time the website was setup!

 >When I first read of her 'hunger-strike' I
 >thought, "Oh my God, this poor woman is going to starve herself
 >to death in order to get Dubya to cop to the realty of UFOs." At
 >that point, thinking that she was actually starving herself and
 >knowing what a knothead Dubya is, I figured, "she's a dead
 >woman." I immediately composed my first post on this thread
 >expressing a very real concern for her welfare and safety.

Really? You have a short memory Mr. Velez! A very short one! You
forget me telling you over and over on Strange Days Indeed, that
I was on a very healthy hungerstrike (at least for the first
couple of weeks/month)!

 >Then... three weeks later, I find out that she's "fasting" not
 >in the traditional (Ghandi style, political hunger-strike) that
 >I thought she was.

Whos' fault is it if you don't find out the evidence and go
around making assumptions? Or don't listen when you are actually
hearing the information from the horse's mouth? Mine?

 >That she is in fact on what can only be called a fairly strict
 >'diet'.

Indeed, and the day you stop eating solids for 44 days, not
because you want to look beautiful, but because you actually
care and want to stand for some cause -- well then tell me how
easy it is! You do it Mr. Velez and then we can talk about what
a 'strict diet' it is!

 >I felt like I had been fooled and taken in.

What a convenient victim story!

By nobody but yourself! I didn't fool you -- your insistence and
refusal to listen to me when I told you over and over is your
own problem! Taking responsibility for your problem would be an
ADULT thing to do!

 >It turns out that all my worry and concern was for
 >naught, about nothing.

It turns out that your worry and concern were a load of crock
you used to help yourself feel good about yourself, without
opening your ears and hearing what I had to say! You prefereed
to be led around by your assumptions than hear reality!

Seems like a common problem in ufology...

If you had bothered to visit my website at any time you would
have known what I was consuming at the time that you bothered to
find out! If you had called me and asked me I would have told
you!

In fact I did tell you -- MORE THAN ONCE WITH HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE
LISTENING!!!

 >_That_ is why I recently expressed the thoughts and feelings
 >that I have.

Indeed!

 >>This woman holds herself proudly while standing for righteous
 >>principal. She maintains her position while sustaining
 >>withering patronization, ridicule, and insult. She confronts a
 >>legitimate problem head-on while others otherwise count points,
 >>airily pronounce and blithely pontificate.

 >Alfred you already know how much I love and respect you. You are
 >one of the few people who have been actively and energetically
 >supporting Lara's alleged "fast" that I have any _real_ respect
 >for.

 >I can easily accept and support you in your support of her
 >because I know you, and I _know_ that that support (coming from
 >you) is honest and sincere. I can only hope that you are able to
 >see and to respect my take/point of view, and to accept it as
 >being as honest and sincere in origin as your own.

Honest and sincere???? Mr. Velez, please define for me what you
mean by these two words, because I think we may have different
interpretations?

Maybe in ufology -- the words sincere and honesty
have a totally different meaning! Maybe it is time
I hear what these words mean to people here!

Becuase if anything, I have been honest from day 1. I have been
sincere, even when my sincerity was anger!

 >You know me
 >man. I am not just being a 'hard-ass' with Lara for fun.

Really? Then what are you being?

 >My caring about this subject is genuine. It's not just _talk_
 >with me. I have backed up my words with _deeds_ and _dedicated_
 >hard work for many years. I'm here because I came to _work_ and
 >because I _really_ care. The opinions that I post are not phony
 >BS that I make-up just to see my own words in print. (And you,
 >more so than most, _know_ the truth of that.)

 >Support me in my stand as I do you in yours. We know each other's
 >Hearts and that the positions/stands that we take are taken in
 >(earnest) honesty and sincerity.

Mr. Velez, does _my_ heart count in this matter? Or am I just a
convenient piece of flesh for you to batter upon?

I have not lied to you, or anyone else! Not once! I may not have
done all exactly the way people thought I should, but there is
one thing I have not done!

I have not lied to _anyone_ about my fast/hungerstrike, even
when that got me evicted three times in the last three weeks,
even when it meant I was sleeping in my car, even when my best
friend said he could have nothing to do with me while this was
going on!

2. I have taken every single person at their word, no matter how
absolutely sci-fi their story, I have given them the benefit of
the doubt! Innocent until proven guilty! I have heard their
stories, I have lay in bed and cried night after night about
their pain. I have battled on trying to be a voice for thier
pain.

I will continue, except I now know where John Velez stands..








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 14

               Re: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike' - Jones

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:12:06 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:58:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike' - Jones


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 9 Sep 2001 22:33:16 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike'


 >It appears to this author that the UFO community is a community
 >in diapers

 >Grant Cameron

Well Grant you have now succeeded in insulting a large number of
people on this List.

I have been out of diapers longer than your apparent mental age
by an awful big factor.

This _modern_ UFO community if fifty years old and there are
many wizened veterans in it. I do not count my fifteen plus
years in Ufology making me a veteran, for there are people here
who have been in this game more that double that.

As for your comment about Lara not being able to take the abuse
that she received here on UFO UpDates, how laughable is that?

All I have seen is concern for her physical well being! If that
is abuse, then I suggest she is still in diapers.


Yours in disgust

--

    In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                         Sean Jones
               http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 14

                        Re: Filer's Files #37 - 2001

From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:52:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:00:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #37 - 2001


Filer's Files #37 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
September 12, 2001, Majorstar@aol.com.
Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com,

AMERICA UNDER ATTACK -- The terrorist assault on New York and
Washington, DC over shadow the UFO situation. We send our
prayers to those who lost their lives or loved ones. These
terrorist attacks have changed the world. Everyone is a
potential target and the magnitude of these attacks is
extraordinary. For sometime we have been vulnerable to terrorist
attack. I personally thought the teorrists would use biological
warfare, but these attacks are certainly more spectacular. It is
likely the 757 and 767 aircraft were chosen by the terrorists
since they carry a large fuel load and have common controls so
that a pilot can fly either aircraft.  The United Airlines
aircraft that crashed in Pennsylvania likely was going to crash
in Washington DC at the White House or Capital. We can assume
the people in this aircraft are heroes and may have prevented
further carnage. Cell phone calls from the planes claimed the
terroists had mace and knives and were killing people. During t!
he 70s, hijacking was fairly common. Everyone must consider
airport security as part of their own responsibility. In the
future hijacked aircraft are likely to be shot down to prevent
them from crashing into populated areas. Aggressive attacks
against terrorists and countries that harbor them must now be
achieved to prevent further attacks on innocent civilians.

Damian Barna sent an e-mail stating, "In the shots of the plane
crash on the World Trade Center I spotted a UFO. It is in the
pax version of the shot. For a few seconds the camera focuses on
the UFO while searching the skies for planes. I think, that I
have it on tapee, but need to check my file. Watch the footage
closely, there is a cigar shaped ship off to the right when the
second plane crashes from the left to the right. There is a shot
from ground level. The footagee shows what appears to be a cigar
shaped cloud, but I know better I have learned to recognize the
dimensions of the cloud coverd ships. I will locate the footage
on the tapes." Thanks to Damian Barna

HUNGARIANS CLAIM FOUND TRACES OF LIFE ON MARS

Apparently, Hungarian scientists have found evidence of living
organisms on Mars after analyzing 60,000 photographs taken by
the Mars Global Surveyor probe. A three-man team said the
pictures showed evidence of thousands of dark dune spots,
similar to organisms found near Earth's South Pole, in craters
in Mars' snowy southern polar region. These spots indicate that
on the surface below the ice there are such organisms which,
absorbing solar energy, are able to melt the ice and create
conditions of life for themselves,'' biologist and team member
Tibor Ganti. During harsh Martian winters, when temperatures
plummet to minus 328  Fahrenheit, these so-called Mars Surface
Organisms are protected by a thick blanket of ice which then
melts as the planet's early summer temperatures climb to just
above zero. Large gray dark dune spots -- with a diameter
ranging from 30 feet to several hundred yards -- are left
behind. These, the Hungarians claim, are dried-out organisms,
which can! reactivate themselves once the colder, icy season
sets in again. The same mechanisms can be found on Earth in ice
covering lakes at the South Pole. This could be the first real
proof of life on Mars. These would be living organisms and this
would be the first find of living organisms on another planet,"
he said. http://www.ufoxfiles.com/WorldOfTheStrange/default.asp

Editor's Note: Often strange structures, domes, pyramids, are
found on Mars. Individually, most can be explained away,
collectively they point to an ancient civilization once existed
or has gone underground. Hundreds of meteors probably strike
Mars daily just as they do on earth but we are lucky to have our
atmosphere that protects us from all but the biggest, while Mars
is virtually unprotected. Under these conditions life on Mars
likely went underground and may have attempted to reach its
closest neighbor. I have been looking both at images of Mars and
on Earth for evidence of this hypothesis. Throughout, the Earth
and Mars there are strange burrows, burial grounds, or monuments
to the dead. Our lives are rather short and most wish to be
remembered or to live on. During the Disclosure Project Dr.
Steven Greer and several witnesses revealed that there is life
on Mars based on their contacts.

MAINE TRIO OF 'CRAFT' IN FORMATION

KENNEBUNK -- While at the Astronomical Society of Northern New
England's opening of their Starfield Observatory we were
observing an Iridium Flare on August 24, 2001. At 9:29 PM, we
observed a trio of 'satellites' moving in formation to the west
at 80 degrees altitude in the constellation Lyra. We put several
binoculars and one telescope on the trio. We could only get one
craft at a time and they were only dots of lights with no
characteristics of commercial aircraft. There were no noises as
the craft were extremely high if not in orbit. The trio of craft
continued in perfect formation westward until out of sight over
the horizon. Peter Davenport commented that very few satellites
fly to the west. Observers seem to be quite qualified. Thanks to
NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

NEW JERSEY COMET

HUDSON RIVER -- Gabriel Bellotti notified me that at 5:30 AM he
was coming home from work on September 6, 2001, from Jersey
City to Bayonne when he saw a meteor or comet. It was big and
flashed across the Hudson River or maybe over New York. Someone
else had to see this thing. It was large. It's the first time
that I ever saw anything like this before. It left a big streak
in the sky and the middle of the streak was bright like a light
was inside. I just wanted to let you know so you can check it
out, Thanks Gabriel Bellotti

LINDEN -- On September 7, 2001, I saw something very large and
very strange (definitely not an airplane or airship) extremely
high in the sky at around 3:30 in the afternoon. It was in such
plain sight that I could hardly believe that I'm the only one
who could have seen it. This thing just floated over without a
sound. Damnedest thing I've ever seen. Thanks to Mike
D.DTDream18

Editor's Note: A comet of fire ball was reported over the East
Coast on September 6. A Russian rocket entering the atmosphere
was also reported.

PENNSYLVANIA BRIGHT FAST MOVING OBJECT

LAFAYETTE HILL - Red Jake E-mailed that, "I still cannot
believe my eyes what I just saw. It was September 3, 2001, at
9:06 PM. My wife and I were just out for an after dinner walk
and I noticed that there was a lot of airplane activity in the
sky, due to the Labor Day weekend. When I saw a bright white
object that flew across the sky for about 1-3 seconds. Then it
just disappeared. I am still in a state of shock, because I
know exactly what I saw. This is my first encounter ever with
an UFO. I wish to know if anyone else in the Philadelphia
Montgomery County area saw the same. Thanks to Red Jake
Red24Jake@aol.com

WEST VIRGINIA STRANGE OBJECT WAS FLOATING OVER ONE OF MY COWS.

Wayne -- I went out to my barn, before going to work to check
on a couple of my cows and check their water on August 1, 2001,
at 6:00 AM. This is a big barn, with two sliding doors on the
front, each about 15 feet tall, and 7 feet wide. I leave the
doors open during the summer so air can circulate. When I
walked into my barn an object was floating over the top of a
cow that was about the size of a tire, but square, and angled
down on all of it sides. It looked about 8 inches thick, and
maybe 3 feet wide, and it was black with some kind of gray
markings on it. The thing actually looked kind of beat up. When
I walked in, the thing just floated there for a couple of
seconds, and then flew over my head and out the door. It didn't
fly real fast over me, but I don't know where it went once it
got outside, and it didn't make any noise. I looked a good
while for it, but I never saw it again. I went back inside the
barn to check on my cattle that go in and out for water and fo!
od. I checked on the cow that had the object over it. She
looked and acted all right, but I found a place on her ear that
looked like she had been poked with a needle or something.
There was just a tiny bit of blood there, and her eye on that
side of her head, had like a broken blood vessel in it. I told
my wife what I saw, and she told me that I was crazy, so I
thought I would tell you. I was also late for work because of
this strange thing. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC
www.ufocenter.com

GEORGIA HOVERING OBLONG CRAFT

WHITESBURG -- The witness lives on a large farm of 500+ acres
with his wife and several children. One night in mid-June at
about 10:30 PM, the witness' son came in from outside and
remarked on a strange aircraft over their property. The witness
and family members proceeded outside, and over their adjacent
field was a hovering oblong craft (thicker in the middle), with
white and red lights. The primary witness (PW) stated that it
appeared to be about 500 yards away and about 150 feet in
altitude, because the lights seemed to illuminate the tops of
some nearby trees. PW estimated that the object was about the
size of a quarter held at arm's length, adding that his thumb
end would not have covered it. He looked at it thru binoculars
and noticed that there were steady white lights around it's
mid-line, with red lights seeming to move along the mid-line
between the white lights, as if in sequence. PW added that the
actual structure seemed to be metallic in tone, comparing it !
to the color of a Greyhound bus, or a DeLorean automobile (dull
stainless steel body). Witness then took a large extremely
powerful handheld spotlight used in night fishing and spotted
the craft. The object then moved from about 2 o'clock to about
10 o'clock at an unbelievable speed (eye blink speed according
to the PW), there to once again hover over a different part of
the field at about the same altitude. At that time, additional
similar objects appeared over the field, and at one point,
three were stacked up in a hover. The whole family observed
seven objects for thirty minutes until 11:00 PM. The objects
then simultaneously vanished from view.

The PW also added another unusual aspect to this occurrence.
Several weeks before this event, one of his friends was using a
remote part of the property to camp. The next morning as he
departed, he asked the PW if he had sneaked down to the
campsite during the night to shine his night fishing spotlight
through his tent wall. The PW had not done so. Additional
investigation will follow. Thanks to Tom Sheets, SD MUFONGA,
ISUR Board.

WISCONSIN UFOs HELP LAUNCH UFO REPORTING CENTER

APPLETON COUNTY: CALUMET -- John B. reports, "We saw three
flashing lights on August 30, 2001, at 8:30 PM that were lined
up in a row. They were flashing in sequence. Two flashes,
pause, three flashes, pause, four flashes, pause, and then
repeated. The front light was amber and the others were white.
At first, it looked like they were all connected. Using
binoculars, it looked like only the front light was attached to
the next segment and the other segments were separate. The
object was cigar shaped and had some sort of windows in it.
Suddenly, the rear lights split apart and flew in different
directions. Then, as it got further away, it "realigned" into
one cigar shaped craft that was headed toward Outagamie County
Airport. My wife called the airport and the tower had not seen
anything as I described, on radar. I also saw them on August
27th, when we saw only two similar lights.

SHEBOYGAN -- Steve Oplatek on August 29, 2001, decided to step
outside his house to smoke at 8:40 PM. I noticed six large
aircraft flying west with strobe lights at a fair rate of
speed. I heard jet engine noises and noticed that slightly
ahead of the aircraft were another set of moving lights. The
second set consisted of two lights that were orange in color
and steady; they did not blink like a strobe. After further
observation, it appeared to me as if the aircraft were pursuing
the orange lights. I got this impression because the aircraft
were maneuvering a lot compared to the orange lights. After 2
to 3 minutes the orange lights started to separate, one took a
slight turn to the North, while the other one continued west.
The aircraft then split up into two elements consisting of hree
planes each. It looked like the aircraft were trying to
surround the orange lights, perhaps in a dog fight. This
sighting lasted about five minutes. Six aircraft in such close
proximi! ty to Sheboygan is unusual! Thanks to Jenny Hoppe who
announces the launch of "UFO Wisconsin," their very own UFO
Reporting Center at http://www.ufowisconsin.com.

ILLINOIS OVAL UFO

BLOOMINGTON - The witness relates, "I was driving home from
work on Route 51 to Heyworth on August 22, 2001, around 11:15
PM. I was about half way home when I noticed three bright
lights, side by side in the sky hovering around the Randolph
Grain Elevator. I estimate the object was about 500-1000 feet
in the air. Curiosity got the best of me so I turned on
Randolph Road and proceeded east to check things out. As I got
closer, the object was still hovering and the lights were
getting brighter. I passed the grain elevator and the object
still had not moved. I was getting closer, my cell phone rang,
and no one was there and no incoming call registered in my
phone log. I kept driving and the object darted northeast very
quickly and was gone. I checked the flight schedule at the
Central Illinois Regional Airport and a plane comes in from
Chicago at 11:10 PM. I stopped on the road ten miles away and
could see the landing lights of the plane, but the object had
an oval shape! based on the layout of the lights and darted
away. I saw something out of the ordinary. Thanks to NUFORC.

NEVADA LIGHT DESCENDS TOWARD CAR

PAHRUMP -- On August 24, 2001, the witness drove 60 miles
southwest of Las Vegas and stopped on a bluff over looking
Pahrump at 9:30 PM. They observed an orange light hovering
above the city. The witness stated, "We watched this light for
several minutes, as we were observing this light it started
towards us and in a few seconds was above our car. We were
somewhat startled at this, as there was no noise or any other
signs of a propulsion engine. We watched as this light appeared
to be descending upon us, being a little intimated by this, we
got in out vehicle and sped off. The light did not follow us,
but left us wanting as to what it was?" Thanks to Greg
BeardenGBLVN22

CALIFORNIA SAW A LARGE FLYING TRIANGLE SHAPED CRAFT

VISTA -- On August 21, 2001, the witness reports seeing lights
on each side of a flying triangle craft at 7:01 PM. First a
bright light came out from behind a cloud like a slow moving
plane, but it was not a plane because there were no red and
green navigation lights on each side. There was no sound it was
just a white dot, then a minute later another bright dot
appeared, and behind it was a triangle shaped craft with three
lights on each side followed. They all went behind a hill and
that was it I didn't see them leave

CARDIFF STATE BEACH - On August 21, 2001, two hours later
another witness was standing at the very edge of the beach at
9:00 PM. A dim pattern of lights in the sky caught his
attention and at first he thought it might be a formation of
planes. The witness states, "Through some low clouds, the craft
appeared and it turned out that the light pattern was just one
side of this triangular object. The main body of the object was
black with rows of lights on each side of the triangle, with
three bright lights on top at each corner-top and bottom. The
object moved slowly south out of a low cloud, stopped, and
rotated about 60 degrees. The Flying Triangle wobbled as it
rotated. During the entire event, there was no sound louder
than the crashing of the waves on the beach. I would estimate
the object to be 2000 feet above the water and 2500 feet off of
the beach. The Flying Triangle was 450 feet or more in width. I
saw this object fairly clearly and it was large enough in my
fi! eld of view that I could see many details. Thanks to Peter
Davenport NUFORC

CANADA CYLINDRICAL UFO

KANATA, ONTARIO -- There was a clear blue sky on August 25,
2001, as the witness and his wife drove north and noticed a
high flying jet plane leaving a contrail at 10:02 AM. One
minute later they saw another craft moving northeast without
making a contrail. It was moving just too fast and too high to
be a glider or small airplane. It looked like a perfectly
cylindrical metallic object with a quasi-transparent dome shape
attached to the top similar in texture to what you can see when
the moon is barely visible during the day. There was a variable
haze surrounding the object the fast moving object. As the
object came over head the witness laughed to himself and
realized the shape of the object was just like a UFO portrayed
in a B movie. Comparing the UFO with a helicopter flying over
the witness felt the UFO was the size of a big commercial jet.
He is an amateur astronomer and has a Master degree in
engineering.

BURNABY BC -- On August 24, 2001, the witness and her husband
were heading home to Surrey, when she looked up and noticed a
huge blimp at high altitude at 6:05 PM. It was much bigger than
any airplane. The object was stationary, and had a reddish
rustic tinge of color. They traveled down Willingdon Avenue and
on to the freeway watching when it moved northwest. They had
never seen an object move with that speed and that size. About
1 1/2 hours after they got home to Surrey, they had to get back
onto the freeway for an engagement in downtown Vancouver. Again
they noticed a black object stationary in the sky again so they
pulled over at 7:40 PM. It was the same oval shaped and very
dark black large oblong/shaped object. NUFORC felt the witness
was exceptionally eloquent and credible and was not describing
the laser light over Victoria, BC, later and the same night.
Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com.

POLTERGEISTS AND UFOs

Lordfrench@aol.com writes for over five years, my fiancee and I
have had a very active poltergeist in our lives. We have been
subjected to a wide range of supernatural events, daily
'miracles' such as items flying around our home and in our car;
things appearing and disappearing in front of our eyes; strange
telephone calls and messages; imitative voices calling out;
footsteps in the house; items being teleported from our home
thousands of miles to the home of a friend; friends being hit
by flying items in their home while speaking to me on the
phone; bizarre computer and electrical interference's; displays
crashing to the floor or flying across aisles in stores; books
flipping into the air from shelves in bookstores; items jumping
from grocery shelves or slamming to the floor near us. We have
had many hundreds, probably more than a thousand, events or
manifestations of literally "impossible" actions since April of
1996. While all this has been stupefying and life-altering,! we
also--during a peak early period of these manifestations, in
September of 1996--had a very vivid and fairly close-up UFO
sighting while driving at night on a freeway. A wide-ranging
pair of bright white lights hovered over the expressway ahead
of us for five minutes; their "wingspread" so wide I assumed it
to be a jumbo jet in distress flying low towards us. On finally
approaching the lights, and driving under them, the bright
light-turned-to-shadow revealed (to me) a high-tech and
metallic stacked superstructure situated above and back from
the blinding lights. The structure appeared like the top of a
wedding cake, two barrels stacked up, a smaller upon a larger
cylinder. The lower cylinder was ribbed with perfect vertical
lines.

My fiancee, amazingly, saw another aspect of the object very
clearly. She saw rows of yellow and red windows or squares
situated below the lights, in such depth and so uniform that
she thought she was looking at a skyscraper. Amazing that the
two of us, seated a couple feet apart, both clearly saw two
distinct images. (On passing under the lights and structure, it
disappeared in an instant. I pulled over, but it was suddenly
gone. Naturally, we were left--and have been
since--contemplating the connection between our poltergeist
experiences and the UFO sighting. I feel they must be
connected, but how? At the other end of the spectrum, I have
been in touch with a veteran UFO experiencer who feels the
common poltergeist manifestations in our lives are in fact ET
actions, that we are in fact being toyed with by aliens who for
some reason have become attached to us. The most common
poltergeist occurrence is the appearance and disappearance of 6
to 9 beer bottles from our ref! rigerator. daily. The bottles
often disappear with a loud "clunk" and usually end up all over
the house half filled and ice-cold.

We had a personal object disappear from our home one day and
show up that day at a friend's house over 2,000 miles away. I
said to the friend on the phone, "Watch, the next thing will be
you'll have a UFO sighting." Within a few days he saw a UFO
that he videotaped. The coincidence of the poltergeist
onslaught and the UFO sighting surely can't be disconnected? I
went to see a priest about the poltergeist, but though he
volunteered to "cleanse" our home, I sensed he was not too
eager to do so, since poltergeists--unlike classic ghosts--do
not take well to religious adjustment. Anyway, bringing the
alleged 'demons' subject back to the world of UFOs, can anyone
shed light on this mystery of our lives, the bizarre
relationship between poltergeists and UFOs? Thanks to
Lordfrench@aol.com and Skywatch International.

THE BARBARA WALTER'S INTERVIEW WITH ANNE HECHE

On the show 20/20 TV show on September 5, 2001, Ann Heche
revealed more information about the curious event near Fresno,
California on August 19, 2000, in which she was found wandering
outside a rural ranch house, wearing a sports bra and shorts
and babbling about "the spaceship." Ms. Heche said, that six
years ago, back in 1995, she began hearing disembodied voices.
The voices told her that she was "Celestia," an avatar from
"the Fourth Dimension" who was destined to give birth in the
21st Century to "the New Messiah." Ann Heche's middle name is
Celeste. During the six-year period, which includes her
celebrated romance with Ellen DeGeneres, Ms. Heche experienced
a wide range of paranormal phenomena, including clairvoyance,
clairaudience, glossolalia, poltergeist levitation activity and
visualization of departed spirits. According to Heche, her
lover's reaction was, "So you talk to the dead, eh? That's
nice. Uh, just don't talk about it, okay? Oh, and I love you
dearly! ." While at the Sierra lodge that day, Ms. Heche says
she heard the voice of "Mamnod" or God instructing her to take
a blast of Ecstasy and then report to Fresno for a rendezvous
with the spaceship. "I was ready to return to the Fourth
Dimension," she said. Ms. Heche remembers driving "for five
hours" to Fresno. Which is really unusual since she was only on
the road for no more than 80 minutes. The voice then told her
to pull over, leave the black SUV and head out into the farm
field "where the spaceship would be landing soon." When her
friends came to see her at the medical center on the morning of
August 20, Ms. Heche said she suddenly snapped out of it. No
more voices. "I was sane for the first time in 13 years."
Thanks to Joe Trainor Masinaigan

ENGLAND: ET PHONED HOME? ALIEN MESSAGE MAY INDICATE CONTACT

CHILBOLTON RADIO TELESCOPE -- Nancy Talbot from the BLT Team
called to inform me that the two new Crop Circle formations or
glyphs next to the radio telescope had been investigated by a
scientific Team. The investigators indicate they did not find
evidence for authenticity, nor did they find evidence the
glyphs were a hoax. It was reported in error that the field was
surrounded by a fence. There were no visible changes to the
plants, such as node enlargement or expulsion cavities. The
glyphs also had a grid line 3 to 4 inches thick that underlain
the crops that could be used to help create the design. This
does not prove that the glyphs were man-made nor does it prove
they were made by aliens. They could not provide evidence for
extraterrestrial contact. The first glyph appeared on August
14, 2001, that shows a framed alien face with large dark eyes
and a small mouth. The second glyph appeared with a complicated
binary code that seems to be a reply to a message broadca! st
from the Arecibo Radio Telescope in Puerto Rico on November 16,
1974. That radio signal depicted a stick drawing of a human,
our accurate DNA, and the Earth's location in the solar system.
Early indications are that the new glyph contains information
that could only be known by high order of intelligence. Some
scientists claim aliens would not communicate in this way, but
they may not use radio communication, since it so slow. There
are many possibilities and its too early to completely rule out
alien contact. See: www.cropcircleresearch.com,
cropcircleconnector.com/. Thanks to Nancy Talbot will speak at
Levittown Hall in Hickesville, NY on October 21, 2001. Contact
Ms. Steele (516) 420-8767.

LARGEST UFO CD-ROM IN EXISTENCE The Black Vault has unveiled
thousands of documents relating to the UFO phenomenon. Some,
have never been published in electronic form, nor have other
seen even the light of day. Declassified in recent years, this
CD holds over 5,000 pages of material, covering the past
half-century of government involvement in the UFO field of
research. From the CIA recently declassified documents to the
FBI. From the NSA to the DIA, this CD has a fantastic archive,
ready to browse with high-resolution scans. Easily read and
easily navigated, this research tool will be used for years to
come! To order, call toll free, (866) 828-2858 or outside the
continental US, (818) 886-0131. Order online today,
http://www.blackvaultstore.com

"THE UFO EXPERIENCE" WEBSITE NAME TO BE AUCTIONED --"The UFO
Experience" annual conference has been ended and the conference
website closed down. The website's URL <<www.ufoexperience.com
will be offered for sale at auction via the Internet on e-Bay
on September 24, 2001. The listing will be in the "Domain
Names" section. (On e-Bay's home page, enter "Domain Names" in
the question box "What are you looking for?" and then select
the "Find it!" button.) The auction will have a floor of $500
and will last five days. Preemptive bids will be considered
before the auction. I reserve the right to cancel the auction
if a preemptive bid is accepted. John White, Producer "The UFO
Experience" Conference 60 Pound Ridge Road Cheshire,
Connecticut 06410-3412, USA Tel 203-272-2151. Fax 203-250-0501,
E-mail White8011@aol.com

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL for $30 per year by
contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended you for
membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2001 by George A.
Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the
files on their Web Sites provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue
that the item appeared. These reports and comments are not
necessarily the official MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish
to keep your name, address, or story confidential. Caution,
most of these are initial reports and require further
investigation.










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                     Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 11:43:38 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:17:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Ledger


 >From: James Oberg <JamesOberg@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:59:53 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:19:54 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That

 >>>From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 08:14:17 EDT
 >>>Subject: Nazi UFOs And All That
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>I wonder how many Americans realise that man was put on the moon
 >>by the same man the built the V2?

 >Right, they did two favors for the world -- bankrupted Nazi
 >Germany on an idiotic inefficient war machine, that otherwise
 >the resources for it would have prolonged the war another six
 >months at least, and second, returned to their childhood ideals
 >to open the solar system to huamnity. Show some gratitude!!

Hello James,

There's a shorter phrase to say the same thing you offered
above. The ends justifies the means. I'm not young enough to
believe that Von Braun was slyly attempting to bankrupt the Nazi
regime. I'm old enough to remember the great medical debates
about using Nazi research on the Jews and other unfortunates.
Supposedly this was not done for moral reasons-and if you
believe this I've got a pharmaceutical company to sell you. All
of this aside, apparently these rules did not apply to the
machines of destruction.


Jaded,

Don Ledger









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                     Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:14:32 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:27:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - McCoy


 >From: James Oberg <JamesOberg@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:59:53 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:19:54 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That

 >>>From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 08:14:17 EDT
 >>>Subject: Nazi UFOs And All That
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>I wonder how many Americans realise that man was put on the moon
 >>by the same man the built the V2?

 >Right, they did two favors for the world -- bankrupted Nazi
 >Germany on an idiotic inefficient war machine, that otherwise
 >the resources for it would have prolonged the war another six
 >months at least, and second, returned to their childhood ideals
 >to open the solar system to huamnity. Show some gratitude!!

Well, James, I do. As a student of history-aviation in
particular, Von Braun & Co. put us, the U.S. on the Moon and
beyond. (Pardon the  attitude, I'm feeling a bit angry anyway.)

Also, Mr. Matthews is the main spokesman for 'captured' Nazi
saucer tech. As I have stated before, if the Nazi's had this
supposed wonder weapon, why aren't we thus: "All day long ve
Seig Heil! Seig Heil! In der Fhurer's face!"- with apologies
to one of my heroes and role models, Spike Jones,
bandleader, humorist.


GT McCoy








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                     Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Jones

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:16:52 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:29:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Jones


 >From: James Oberg <JamesOberg@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:59:53 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

Evening James, List

 >>I wonder how many Americans realise that man was put on the moon
 >>by the same man the built the V2?

 >Right, they did two favors for the world -- bankrupted Nazi
 >Germany on an idiotic inefficient war machine, that otherwise
 >the resources for it would have prolonged the war another six
 >months at least, and second, returned to their childhood ideals
 >to open the solar system to huamnity. Show some gratitude!!

Pray tell, why should I show gratitude?

Werner Von Braun was directly responsible for the deaths of
thousands of British people. Why should I be grateful that he
put an American on the moon with the same technology that killed
so many of my countrymen?

--

    In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                         Sean Jones
               http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/










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             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke

From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:08:55 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:31:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke


 >From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 00:26:21 +0100


 >You are being very silly now. Unless you have worked at the MOD
 >you cannot claim to know how it works. Your bragging just makes
 >you look like a silly little boy who thinks he knows it all.


Clearly, I've touched a raw nerve to elicit such such childish
and pathetic comments from someone who expects her arguments to
be taken seriously.


Dave Clarke











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             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Easton

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:32:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:33:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Easton


Regarding:

 >From: David Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 14:26:10 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke

Dave wrote:

 >Those who have been following the ongoing debate over whether
 >Nick Pope did or *did not* see the Defence Intelligence files
 >relating to the Rendlesham Forest incident will be interested to
 >read the following, by courtesy of Jenny Randles.

Dave,

This confirms that contentions previously expressed can
evidently be proven as factual.

To reiterate; Jenny notes that the tape of her 1995 interview
with Nick Pope records the following:

I asked if there was any British case where a radar confirmation
of a visually observed target occurred and that was not
explained and here was his answer:

"I am not aware of a British case - no".

I then asked him about DSTI and DI 55 - the "other departments
where the reports went to" - as I put it. "Can you comment on
whether the reports actually go to these departments and what
they do with them?"

He said: "I can't actually tell you what (the initials) stand
for, simply because that's not what we do. But what I can tell
you is that basically those departments - there's nothing
sinister or spooky about them - it's simply people casting an
expert eye over the data and helping us in Sec AS with the
actual business of investigation. It really is a case of two or
three heads being better than one".

So I asked why MoD reports are just scraps of paper with no
evidence for any evaluation. "Surely some evaluation is done?
This work done by the other departments. Do you see that
evaluation?'"

He said: "Very often the only evaluation that is done is a quick
glance to see if there is any threat. Now this is a grey area.
But I think in the 95 per cent of cases where there is a
reasonable explanation you wouldn't necessarily expect to see
any written material  - someone would simply look at it and say
'that's obviously an airship'."

So I pointed out that with a case like Rendlesham "surely some
kind of evaluation work has to be done? Many possibilities
arise. It could be a terrorist attack for instance".

He said: "I think the Rendlesham Forest case is a case apart and
is very much the prestige case of British UFOlogy. Now
unfortunately I've not seen the evaluation work that went on the
Rendlesham Forest case. There are some papers that I have not
seen".

"Do you mean that these are somewhere else?" I asked.

"No, what I mean is that the Rendlesham Forest file that I have
seen starts from the News of the World article - which was
obviously some time after the event. And although there is
reference made to evaluation being carried out at the time.
That's the material that I've not seen".

"So where is it then?"

"The problem is that when DS 8 evolved into Sec AS in l985 all
the files were closed down and material was chopped and changed
and I'm afraid that's the way governments tend to work sometime.
And its an extremely inexact science. So the answer to the
question is - I hope that its somewhere in the system in the
contemporary file for that year rather than the specific
Rendlesham Forest case file that I had which was started when
the public reaction to the event started".
[END]


The above correlates with responses Nick Pope gave to 'UFO
Magazine' in 1996 and what was explained to Nick Redfern, Andy
Roberts and yourself.

Nick Pope has therefore previously substantiated never having
access to that investigative documentation, recently released by
the Ministry of Defence.

This is the "evaluation work" which Pope acknowledged was, "the
material that I've not seen".


Nick Redfern also comments:

"Nick [Pope] told me, on audio-tape, that the Rendlesham file
that was in his office only contained the Halt memo; the News Of
The World newspaper piece from 1983 (and related news
clippings); and correspondence with members of the public.

He also told me (on tape too) that he had not seen any documents
that related in any way to any sort of MoD investigation of the
case. Moreover, he went on to say that in his opinion no such
papers existed.

He also denied (on tape again) that the file he saw contained
the covering letter that Sqdn. Leader Moreland sent to the MoD
with Halt's memo. The file does contain that memo and Nick's
only response now is that he doesn't know why he told me this.

Therefore, cover-up or foul-up, the fact is that Pope didn't say
anything along the lines of "Oh, I may have seen other papers
and files that I can't discuss because of the constraints of the
Official Secrets Act."

He was very clear about what was in the file to which he had
access and very clear in his views that the MoD had not
investigated the case".
[END]


My appreciation, I'm sure echoed by others, for Nick and Jenny's
assistance in definitively resolving some of the questions
raised.

I trust we can draw that proverbial line under the proven facts.


The question which remains unresolved, as accurately
highlighted, is how do we equate the now clarified facts with
Pope's current assertions:

"The documents come from a file (or more accurately, from
several different files) that I used during my tour of duty in
Sec(AS)2a, from 1991 to 1994".

Oh, not overlooking he immediately added:

"I'm pleased though surprised that some Defence Intelligence
Staff papers have been released, because although I worked with
the DIS frequently in the course of my official research and
investigation into the UFO phenomenon, this was a part of my MOD
work that I could never previously have discussed with the media
or the public".

As I said, it already seemed obvious this had nothing to do with
any 'Rendlesham' file which Pope had knowledge of, although he
might have given some that impression.


He continues, "Perhaps appropriately, about the most recent
paper on the file is a briefing that I wrote for the Press
Office in January 1994. I was, of course, putting forward the
_no defence significance_ party line".

Whilst at the same time, admirably, suggesting to a colleague
how, concerning claims our MoD were involved in a 'UFO cover
up', "the less likely it is that this view will get an airing",
if the Ministry were comprehensively forthcoming!

If space permits, a copy of this notable 'no MoD cover up'
document might be published, along with others from the
Ministry's file, to accompany my 'Rendlesham' article, which
will appear in the next issue of 'Fortean Times'.


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk








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   Sep > Sep 14

                   Image From Space Of Attack On Manhatten

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:26:51 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:35:34 -0400
Subject: Image From Space Of Attack On Manhatten


Hi Errol and UFO UpDates readers.

Check out the 1 meter resolution image of the WTC site (minus
the twin 110 story towers) taken by the unclassified IKONOS
satellite.

Nick


<snip>

NEWSALERT: Thursday, September 13, 2001 @ 0149 GMT
------------------------------------------------------
The latest news from Astronomy Now and Spaceflight Now


IKONOS VIEW OF MANHATTAN
------------------------
This one-meter resolution satellite image of Manhattan, New York
was collected by Space Imaging's IKONOS satellite. The image
shows an area of white and gray-colored dust and smoke at the
location where the World Trade Center once stood.

http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0109/12ikonoswtc/

<snip>








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              Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Hale

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 03:50:59 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:37:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Hale


 >From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 01:16:40 +0100

 >One person who didn't have any excuse was Jenny Randles. I am
 >more concerned with her letters to the MOD debunking other
 >ufologists. Maybe it's time we pasted some of those letters for
 >all to see.


Hi Georgina,

I would be extremely interested in seeing these letters, where
can I see them, if indeed that is possible?

Roy






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             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Easton

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 06:02:21 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:39:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Easton


Regarding any suggestion that the released Ministry of Defence
file contained some correspondence from Jenny Randles which
'debunked other ufologists' and this should earnestly be
detailed as being of utmost meaningful, related, significance...

Some might conclude that an evidently vindictive, intentionally
destructive and ultimately pointless exercise was the last thing
we all needed...


Tell you what, anyone who wants to peruse the full text of
Jenny's commendable correspondence with the MoD, in which she
does suggest, almost twenty years ago, that BUFORA was the most
appropriate recipient of 'UFO' documents Jenny asked to be
released - rather than [debunk] any other UK 'UFO' organisation
- just let me know.

If this is equally a 'concern' of yours, I'll gladly send you a
copy of the sparse material - you _will_ conclude, 'is that all
the absurd, alleged 'debunking' entails?

Even better, a special offer to UpDates subscribers, I'll throw
in - completely free of charge - copies of correspondence from
the infamous 500 page 'FUFOR' file, which contained the never
before released official and original 'Rendlesham' witness
statements.

Read the documents which reveal how Brenda Butler, Dot Street,
Paul Fuller, Jenny Randles and even Col. Charles Halt were
criticised, or critical of others! Yes, it's equally an outdated
'Rendlesham' perspective and completely irrelevant, but, hey,
what do you expect for free!?

If this is what you consider to be a contribution to 'ufology',
as opposed to the abject reverse, then write to me.

Otherwise, let's not bother with cited, pitiful 'evidence' of
nothing other than what some might construe as a personal
vendetta, which is increasingly repugnant, transparent, with no
substance and exceedingly tiresome to ufologists. Especially the
many who appreciate Jenny's immense, objective and significant
contributions from a lifetime of so much consequential,
published research.


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk











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                Re: The Story From Ground Zero... - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:46:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:42:17 -0400
Subject: Re: The Story From Ground Zero... - Maccabee


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:52:30 EDT
 >Subject: The Story From Ground Zero...
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com


 >Errol, if it please the court, I would like to thank the
 >literally zillions of people who wrote to us, to Rosie and me,
 >to express their support, send prayers and such. None of you
 >have any idea how wonderful it is to receive such support. I

<snip>

 >The World Trade Center was different. It was _not_ there for me
 >when I was a kid. It was in fact, a blight on a more wonderful
 >blight. That last one needs explanation. Canal and Cortland
 >Streets used to be a place where, like Alice's Restaurant, you
 >could buy just about anything. Anything. But most important of
 >all to a kid of age 13 years, who was a licensed amateur radio
 >operator, there were the war surplus stores. I could tell you
 >what I bought, but you wouldn't believe it. But out of those
 >spare parts, those cheap components and old WW2 bomber radios, I
 >built a most magnificent radio shack. Most impressive. But the
 >place was rather a blight. The "Gesundt" character was
 >originally built out of the Canal and Cortland Street vendors.
 >Standing outside their stores screeching out what was inside,
 >for cheaper than dirt.>

 >"Heah... heah... come-in... come-in... cheap... ladies hats from
 >Paris." And others hawking their wondrous vacuum tubes and
 >resisters, capacitors and selenium rectifiers.

 >"Selenium Rectifiers" fellow bubbas and bubbettes. You gotta be
 >my age to know and love the stench if you plugged the darn thing
 >in the wrong way in the socket. "P-U"


Thanks for the message, Jim/.   And, yes, I recall the odor of
garlic or arsenic as a selenium rectifier burned!









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                              Re: Irony - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:01:21 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:45:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Irony - Hall


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 >Subject: Re: Irony
 >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 05:30:16 -0500

 >>From: Richard Hall
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Irony
 >>Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:41:13 +0000

 >>>Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 11:19:50 -0400
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>From: John Velez
 >>>Subject: Re: Irony

 >>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 >>>>Subject: Irony
 >>>>Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 18:41:33 -0500

 >>List,

 >>I think we should appoint John as ambassador to Mars, or the Nth
 >>dimension, or wherever the little buggers come from. His
 >>patience, gentility, and sense of fairplay are non pareil.

 >That's not doting patience with an insolent child, Mr. Hall;
 >that's respect for a fellow sentient being. I think it's
 >interesting that you can't, don't, or won't see the
 >difference...

Alfred,

I have no idea what you are all out of joint about here. I
happen to admire John Velez and took time to compliment him, but
apparently you see something heinous in that. From this and past
posts, it is clear that you have trouble comprehending simple
statements without twisting them into something else.

Let's get back to serious discussion of the issues.


Dick









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             Re: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike' - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:25:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:51:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike' - Lehmberg


 >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:41:38 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <shooter@afterimagephoto.tv>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike'

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: 9 Sep 2001 22:33:16 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike'

 >>On Sunday September 9 - Day 44 Lara Johnstone made the decision
 >>to end her hunger strike to encourage President Bush to fulfill
 >>his promise to Charles Huffer to disclose the truth about UFOs.

 ><snip>

 >>I am sure that those closest to Lara consider her a hero, and
 >>will join her in a minute to help her in any new plans she has
 >>for disclosure. She has been a prime example of sacrifice,
 >>determination, and selflessness. Her contribution to this field
 >>will long be remembered.

 >>Grant Cameron

 >>"Are you ready for the revolution?"
 >>Lara Johnstone, a California woman who began a Hunger Strike for
 >>Disclosure on July 28th.

 >Sheesh.

 >The old "Three Hunger Strikes and You're Out" bit.

This coming from the guy missing every easy pop-up fly ball
headed his way makes the humor a little limp, but what the hell?
A cheap shot, is a cheap shot is a cheap shot, and by any other
name would smell like the out house door on a tuna boat, eh, Mr.
Evans?

 >What a load.

...a load that you've been stridently less than willing to bear
on your own shoulders, I point out.

 >And to think I was really worried about her
 >welfare.

Another BS card's thrown down on that one. I'm less than
convinced regarding the veracity of that specious declaration,
Mr. Evans.

 >Well, Alfred, looks like you're safe, now.

Oh -- I'm far from safe, Mr. Owens. You too.

 >Not quite
 >the ending you were expecting, though, eh?

...Not the one I would have hoped for, for sure. And I find your
too gleeful reaction to its resolution saying quite a bit more
about you than me. Eh?

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

 >~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by scurrilous
skepti-bunkies.









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                         Re: Are You Okay? - Wilson

From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson@alienjigsaw.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:05:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:19:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Are You Okay? - Wilson


 >Are You Okay?

 >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:41:58 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Are You Okay?

 >From: Budd Hopkins
 >To: <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 6:51 AM
 >Subject: Re: Are You Okay?


 >Dear Royce,

 >Thank you so much for your expression of concern. Carol and I
 >are both safe and well. We live about a mile and a half from the
 >World Trade Center, and as the horror unfolded we walked over to
 >the Hudson River where we had a view downstream. We saw the
 >northern building enveloped in smoke and then, suddenly, flame
 >gushed out from its central floors and it simply imploded,
 >falling in on itself and collapsing. It was the most horrendous
 >sight of my life. We knew that there were still uncounted
 >thousands of workers in the building who couldn't get down
 >because the fire had blocked all exits.

Thanks for this posting. It was great to hear that our UFO
friends and associates in New York are safe. I've been waiting
to hear something from Budd, as I telephoned on the 11th and
left a message. It's good to know that he and Carol are both
safe.


Thanks again,


Katharina








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                            Re: Irony - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:29:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:35:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Irony - Lehmberg


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Irony
 >Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:01:21 +0000

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 >>Subject: Re: Irony
 >>Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 05:30:16 -0500

 >>>From: Richard Hall
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Re: Irony
 >>>Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:41:13 +0000

 >>>>Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 11:19:50 -0400
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>>From: John Velez
 >>>>Subject: Re: Irony

 >>>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 >>>>>Subject: Irony
 >>>>>Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 18:41:33 -0500

 >>>List,

 >>>I think we should appoint John as ambassador to Mars, or the Nth
 >>>dimension, or wherever the little buggers come from. His
 >>>patience, gentility, and sense of fairplay are non pareil.

 >>That's not doting patience with an insolent child, Mr. Hall;
 >>that's respect for a fellow sentient being. I think it's
 >>interesting that you can't, don't, or won't see the
 >>difference...

 >Alfred,

 >I have no idea what you are all out of joint about here. I
 >happen to admire John Velez and took time to compliment him, but
 >apparently you see something heinous in that. From this and past
 >posts, it is clear that you have trouble comprehending simple
 >statements without twisting them into something else.

I likely see things a little clearer than I think you would
allow, Dick, moreover, I think you have an idea...

 >Let's get back to serious discussion of the issues.

 >Dick

I've never left them. Not to make churlish points; not for
artful debate; not for sake of parochial point of view or ax to
grind. The issues are as Hynek painted them -- no looking, no
wanting to look, no look encouragement...

Bad science was used to discredit the subject of UFOs from sign
through grudge to bluebook and has been signed off on by every
generation of the suspicious mainstream since! That's the issue.
I'm ready to welcome you back any time you say.

I want to know. I've looked and I've seen. I want to respect my
reality. I don't want to continue to be angered by institutions
pissing on my leg and telling about rain. I sense conspiracy to
defraud and mislead directed at us all. A labled mushroom, I'm
tired of the shade and I'm insulted by the diet. I would know!

Tragic recent events make this moot for awhile, but no less
imperative, no less crucial, and no less important!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

 >~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 14

                              Re: Irony - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:15:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:41:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Irony - Velez


 >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:10:29 -0700
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
 >Subject: Re: Irony

 >>Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 11:19:50 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Irony

 >>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Irony
 >>>Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 18:41:33 -0500

 >>Hi Alfred, hi All,

 >>You wrote:

 >>>I'm glad I don't gag easily on irony. Those seemingly so
 >>>concerned with Ms. Johnstone's health and welfare previously are
 >>>now astonishingly critical that she's not being anywhere near
 >>>hard enough on herself. Perhaps we should all try for a smidgeon
 >>>more consistency.

 >>I can't speak for anybody else but my perceived "inconsistency"
 >>coincided with my learning of _what_ Lara's "hunger-strike"
 >>consisted of.

 >Interesting, Mr. Velez. In the second week of my hungerstrike, I
 >forget the day, I was a host on the radio Show Strange Days
 >Indeed, in which you were on the show too! I recall stating at
 >the time exactly what I was consuming, I made it VERY CLEAR that
 >I was NOT on a Gandhi Style fast, but it seemed at the time that
 >you refused to want to hear me!

 >You wanted to fall all over yourself about how dangerous my fast
 >was, no matter how much I told you what my fast actually
 >consisted of!

 >I can now see why! You misled _yourself_, you confused
 >_yourself_. I have been totally open abuot what I have been
 >consuming, how _fat_ I was, and anything else anyone wanted to
 >know!

 >Call Steven Bassett and he will tell you that when he heard
 >about my fast, he called me and gave me a 2 hour grilling asking
 >me any question he wanted. I answered every single one with
 >total honesty! I appreciated him for calling and for giving me a
 >grilling, cause I imagine that is a responsible thing to do for
 >anyone who wished to support me. Grant Cameron gave me a similar
 >grilling, as did Randy Kitchur! ;-)

 >If you wanted to know anything, all you had to do was call and
 >ask Mr. Velez! I have nothing to hide! My telephone number is
 >splattered all over the web! All you had to do, in order to find
 >out anything you wanted to know, was pick up the phone! and
 >guess what, I'd answer it!

 >You wish to deceive yourself, and blame it on me! That's
 >fine.... It says more about _John Velez_ and how you define your
 >_integrity_ and _honesty_ than it does about Lara Johnstone!

 >Lara Johnstone may be an idealistic woman who dreams of changing
 >the world and who does not care about being skinny to live upto
 >some American sick dream of what people should look like, but
 >who will go on a fast(diet,hungerstrike) for honesty, for truth
 >and to make a statement that she cares! Whatever you think of
 >her actions -- dumb, dumber, kind, stupid, or courageous! That's
 >your prerogative!

 >The day you stop eating solid foods for 44 days, get evicted
 >three times in those 44 days due to your fast, lose 3 friends,
 >live in your car, give up your employment to focus on the fast,
 >are totally open with anyone who calls asking for information,
 >and continue to take the barrage of negativity from people _who
 >say the care_, then Mr. Velez, I'll take your criticism as
 >valid!

 >>>Moreover, dismissed as a fat girl with a commie agenda,
 >>>conveniently losing weight for 15 minutes of fame... is contrary
 >>>to the reality of a nation functioning as the Rome of the 21st
 >>>century, a nation much better served by strident criticism than
 >>>reactionary and uninformed adulation.

 >>Tell me the truth Alfred, (at first) didn't you think that Lara
 >>was engaged in a traditionally defined, political hunger-strike?

 >If anyone did -- they made it up in thier own heads! Anyone who
 >knows anything about hungerstrikes, knows there are a multitude
 >of ways to do a hungerstrike, and the way to find out what type
 >the person is on, is to ASK THEM!!!

 >>I know I did.

 >Well, then you have nobody to blame but yourself! I had the
 >information out there from the time the website was setup!

 >>When I first read of her 'hunger-strike' I
 >>thought, "Oh my God, this poor woman is going to starve herself
 >>to death in order to get Dubya to cop to the realty of UFOs." At
 >>that point, thinking that she was actually starving herself and
 >>knowing what a knothead Dubya is, I figured, "she's a dead
 >>woman." I immediately composed my first post on this thread
 >>expressing a very real concern for her welfare and safety.

 >Really? You have a short memory Mr. Velez! A very short one! You
 >forget me telling you over and over on Strange Days Indeed, that
 >I was on a very healthy hungerstrike (at least for the first
 >couple of weeks/month)!

 >>Then... three weeks later, I find out that she's "fasting" not
 >>in the traditional (Ghandi style, political hunger-strike) that
 >>I thought she was.

 >Whos' fault is it if you don't find out the evidence and go
 >around making assumptions? Or don't listen when you are actually
 >hearing the information from the horse's mouth? Mine?

 >>That she is in fact on what can only be called a fairly strict
 >>'diet'.

 >Indeed, and the day you stop eating solids for 44 days, not
 >because you want to look beautiful, but because you actually
 >care and want to stand for some cause -- well then tell me how
 >easy it is! You do it Mr. Velez and then we can talk about what
 >a 'strict diet' it is!

 >>I felt like I had been fooled and taken in.

 >What a convenient victim story!

 >By nobody but yourself! I didn't fool you -- your insistence and
 >refusal to listen to me when I told you over and over is your
 >own problem! Taking responsibility for your problem would be an
 >ADULT thing to do!

 >>It turns out that all my worry and concern was for
 >>naught, about nothing.

 >It turns out that your worry and concern were a load of crock
 >you used to help yourself feel good about yourself, without
 >opening your ears and hearing what I had to say! You prefereed
 >to be led around by your assumptions than hear reality!

 >Seems like a common problem in ufology...

 >If you had bothered to visit my website at any time you would
 >have known what I was consuming at the time that you bothered to
 >find out! If you had called me and asked me I would have told
 >you!

 >In fact I did tell you -- MORE THAN ONCE WITH HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE
 >LISTENING!!!

 >>_That_ is why I recently expressed the thoughts and feelings
 >>that I have.

 >Indeed!

 >>>This woman holds herself proudly while standing for righteous
 >>>principal. She maintains her position while sustaining
 >>>withering patronization, ridicule, and insult. She confronts a
 >>>legitimate problem head-on while others otherwise count points,
 >>>airily pronounce and blithely pontificate.

 >>Alfred you already know how much I love and respect you. You are
 >>one of the few people who have been actively and energetically
 >>supporting Lara's alleged "fast" that I have any _real_ respect
 >>for.

 >>I can easily accept and support you in your support of her
 >>because I know you, and I _know_ that that support (coming from
 >>you) is honest and sincere. I can only hope that you are able to
 >>see and to respect my take/point of view, and to accept it as
 >>being as honest and sincere in origin as your own.

 >Honest and sincere???? Mr. Velez, please define for me what you
 >mean by these two words, because I think we may have different
 >interpretations?

 >Maybe in ufology -- the words sincere and honesty
 >have a totally different meaning! Maybe it is time
 >I hear what these words mean to people here!

 >Becuase if anything, I have been honest from day 1. I have been
 >sincere, even when my sincerity was anger!

 >>You know me
 >>man. I am not just being a 'hard-ass' with Lara for fun.

 >Really? Then what are you being?

 >>My caring about this subject is genuine. It's not just _talk_
 >>with me. I have backed up my words with _deeds_ and _dedicated_
 >>hard work for many years. I'm here because I came to _work_ and
 >>because I _really_ care. The opinions that I post are not phony
 >>BS that I make-up just to see my own words in print. (And you,
 >>more so than most, _know_ the truth of that.)

 >>Support me in my stand as I do you in yours. We know each other's
 >>Hearts and that the positions/stands that we take are taken in
 >>(earnest) honesty and sincerity.

 >Mr. Velez, does _my_ heart count in this matter? Or am I just a
 >convenient piece of flesh for you to batter upon?

 >I have not lied to you, or anyone else! Not once! I may not have
 >done all exactly the way people thought I should, but there is
 >one thing I have not done!

 >I have not lied to _anyone_ about my fast/hungerstrike, even
 >when that got me evicted three times in the last three weeks,
 >even when it meant I was sleeping in my car, even when my best
 >friend said he could have nothing to do with me while this was
 >going on!

 >2. I have taken every single person at their word, no matter how
 >absolutely sci-fi their story, I have given them the benefit of
 >the doubt! Innocent until proven guilty! I have heard their
 >stories, I have lay in bed and cried night after night about
 >their pain. I have battled on trying to be a voice for thier
 >pain.

 >I will continue, except I now know where John Velez stands..

Hello Lara, hello List,

I guess it's true, if you give people enough rope some of them
will eventually hang themselves.  ;)

This outrageous spleen venting that you've posted (although I'm
sure it was intended to hurt _me_ or make _me_ look bad somehow)
has revealed far more about the kind of person you are than
anything else. You have completely twisted and misunderstood the
meaning of my words (a post I wrote) in response to someone I
have known for many years and consider a friend. (Alfred
Lehmberg) There is absolutely nothing malicious in the post that
you have taken such extreme offense at. (Aside from the fact
that I wasn't talking _to you._)

Personally, I'd like to get back to dealing with the folks on
the List and not have to dedicate another second of time to you
or your non-existent hunger-strike.

You wrote (ranted) to me:

 >Maybe so, and maybe not! If that is the truth about
 >the ufo community and they don't want to hear my
 >truth! Then so be it, there are many others out
 >there in the world, who really wnat the truth,
 >and who would appreciate my services, as imperfect
 >as they may be. One thing they'll know is that I
 >won't lie to them, no matter how hard it is to
 >tell them the truth, I will do it. Even if it
 >means they kill me!

 >If the ufology movement wants leaders like you and
 >Steven Greer and so on, who lie to your followers when
 >it is convenient for you, and who spin the truth and
 >manipulate it so that you can look good -- well then
 >no wonder the ufology movement is not getting
 >any disclosure, and nobody knows whom to believe.

 >Unlike you Mr. Velez, and many others in the ufology
 >movement -- I want the truth! The good truth, the bad
 >truth, the truth that is difficult to hear, the truth
 >that is amazing to hear, the truth about abductions,
 >the truth about everything! And I will not lie to
 >anyone in order to manipulate them.

 >if anyone wishes me to lead them, then I will tell
 >them the truth about who I am, the good the bad
 >and all. I will serve those who want the truth,
 >and know that I will not compromise myself to
 >manipulate their opinion of me.

Sick ego?

Re: Your plan to publish my posts on your personal website:

You do _not_ have my permission to use any of my writings at
your personal website. (As you plan to do) BTW, you'll also
need the permission of the moderator of the UFO UpDates List
before you post _any_ material to your personal webpages.

For some  reason you have chosen to single me out as some kind
of "bad guy" in all of this. (I don't particularly care.) But...
if you want to publish my writing, you can point people to the
UFOMind Archives where the posts (as written) are _already_
(without any of your spin) available on the Internet.  ;)

Rant until you 'feel better' but you won't be hearing anymore
from me. This last post of yours has shown me that you are not
worthy of any more time, or my serious consideration. Actually,
after reading this last from you, I've become sorry I ever heard
of you. I plan to get on with other, more pressing issues
myself. You know, like dealing with the recent tragedy here in
my hometown.

Suggest you do same. Let's all 'move on' to more important
things. :)


Sincerely,  have a good and a healthy life!

John Velez


                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 14

                            Re: Words Fail - Cory

From: Cory Cameron <kecksburg@cnwl.igs.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:21:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:06:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Words Fail - Cory


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
 >Date: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:02 AM
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Words Fail

 >Gentle Reader,

 >Horrified eyes glued to a TV set. Incomprehensible. Awful. Sad.

 >ebk


I think I speak on behalf of all Canadians who condemn this
unmentionable act. My heart goes out to all Americans due to
these horrific acts of violence that have occured recently. For
4 days I have remained fixed to the television set desperately
trying to fathom why people would do this. And I must say that I
am at a loss as to how people would conjure up enough boldness
to commit these hideous acts..... no morals, no love, no
integrity. A sad thing.


Most Kind, Caring, and Supportive regards,

Cory Cameron









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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 15

                           Re: Aftermath Of Attack

From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:26:05 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:12:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Aftermath Of Attack



 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: 13 Sep 2001 07:06:29 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Aftermath Of Attack

 >In the aftermath of the attack on America many are reflecting on
 >the meaning of life, the meaning of our way of life, and whether
 >we are as culpable in the act as those who terrorize us. There
 >are many opinions. And, except for those Palestinians in Lebanon
 >who seem to have rejoiced over our tragedy, most are shocked and
 >dismayed at the brazen act of these forces of terrorism.

 >Pardon me if I quote from an ancient source of wisdom, the
 >Dhammapada wherein Buddha is quoted as saying,

 >"For hate is never conquered by hate.
 >Hate is conquered by love.
 >This is an eternal law.
 >Many do not realize that we must all come to an end here;
 >but those who do realize this, end their quarrels at once."

 >And he who came in peace said that he who lives by the sword
 >shall die by the sword.

 >Despite words from the Great Ones, humankind persists in its
 >follys.

 >We must advance spiritually and socially if we are to reach the
 >stars or we might not survive long enough to land our spaceships
 >on distant worlds.

 >What must we do now, as a people, as a nation?

 >We must change our thinking before it is too late.

 >A friend of mine just informed me that he received a call to
 >report to the entrance of an underground bunker. He has a JEEP
 >Level 2 card that assures him sanctuary after those who have a
 >Level 1 card are safe. This is part of the COG (Continuity of
 >Government program) instituted by the National Program Office.
 >When there is a national emergency FEMA takes charge.

 >My friend said that those who contacted him were worried about
 >war breaking out in the MidEast and the possibility of
 >escalation. He has not gone to his assigned place yet and is
 >monitoring the news very closely.

 >Should the rest of us worry about war? the economy? We do
 >anyway, but now we have an opportunity to reflect and think. We
 >cannot save those who died in that horrible tragedy at the World
 >Trade Center. It is inconceivable to even contemplate being at
 >Ground Zero. Life must go on for the rest of us.

 >And what about those UFOs we are so fond of? Have intelligent
 >observers now familiar with humankind looked at our broadcasts,
 >the pain, the tragedy? What do they feel if anything? There is
 >some evidence that we were being observed closely in all the
 >great wars. Have some of them also passed through our stages of
 >evolution and strife? What can we eventually learn from them and
 >the greater arena of life in the universe?

 >After the atomic bomb Einstein said that everything had changed
 >but our thinking. Perhaps it is now time to change our thinking.

 >Peace,

 >Bill Hamilton
 >Executive Director
 >Skywatch International Inc.


Dear Bill,

Many many thanks for your email and thoughts, wise words and
incredible wisdom.

I totally agree. I imagine that would finally show the greatness
of our humanity. Can we overcome our hate, our wish for revenge?
It is going to be a true test of courage of our humanity?

My information gathering over the past how many years in the
various truth movements tells me that we are definately being
lied to, and my spiritual quest for a life of peace and harmony
and my experience of growing through hard times, has taught me
that it is when I am at my most angry and hateful, if I can stop
for just one minute and look in the mirror and try to see
exactly what it is that I am afraid of.

I imagine many are afraid of physical and financial insecurity,
which in the current paradigm of living is how we establish our
'success' and our 'security' - hence the destruction we have
reaped on our planet and why we now need new technologies (which
we would not have needed if we had simply lived at one with the
planet).

Anyway fear of external insecurities is based on thinking that
our security comes from some external reality or authority, or
power.

They don't... power comes from loving ourselves deep within and
from treating every single other human being as we would be
treated. Personal Power comes from love, and when you totally
love, you are not afraid of anything, because you know in the
fibers of your being, that your body is at one with this planet
and even if you die, you are a part of the web of life, you are
not afraid... ;-)

Fear comes from hate, from seperation to the web of life, from
seperation and obsession with thinking and our ideologies and
who we think we are... when we identify with who we think we are
(successful, american, etc) then so many things can be
considered an 'attack' to who we are, or how we perceive
ourselves, and when our minds thing they are bieng attacked,
well they fight back!!

Years ago, they fought back by helping us to survive.. these
days our over-identification with our minds as to who we are,
are resulting in our possible annihilation, and with current
events it seems like we have very little time to wake Up! ;-)

We must listen to our hearts.... our hearts of love, our hearts
of trying as hard as it may be....

Security and knowing that we are one with the world, and with
another (such as is exemplified incredibly in the many stories
you hear about how strangers helped, hugged, and loved one
another - they truly forgot who they were and suddenly cared
more for others than they did for themselves) comes from facing
our fears together.

This is probably the biggest opportunity ever being offered to
America to truly show her ability to forgive, to grow, to learn
and to embrace all people, and to take responsibility for her
actions she has made (as we all do, sometimes when we want this
or that) in the past that have hurt others around the world.

The world would embrace such courage, and we would all be crying
in the streets with love that we could overcome such a tragedy
and finally learn that we are all on this planet together....

We can either love each other, forgive, sometimes get mad,
scream a little, but we can get over our little angers, and can
learn to grow and live as a humane species, welcoming others
from the universe....

This is a critical time for the UFO community, it is critical
how the UFO community responds to this crisis and how it leads
by either posturing and demanding war and revenge, or calling
for reason, love and forgiveness...

Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help...

Much luv,

Lara









   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 15

               Re: ET Politics In Clinton White House - Part 4

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 00:32:49 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:23:42 -0400
Subject: Re: ET Politics In Clinton White House - Part 4


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 10 Sep 2001 18:49:23 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: ET Politics In Clinton White House - Part 4 - Complete

 >Extraterrestrial Politics in the Clinton White House: White
 >House Interest - Part 4

 >   "Recently I was in Washington meeting with a very famous
 >   astronaut. Everyone would know this person's name... This
 >   particular astronaut had during his career been in possession
 >   of a very specific piece of incontrovertible piece of
 >   evidence related to UFOs. It is something that if disclosed
 >   would clear and definitive. This astronaut described how he
 >   had approached and worked directly with President Clinton's
 >   Secretary of Defense William Cohen to look into and retrieve
 >   from classified projects this specific piece of evidence - of
 >   that which he had all the specific details... the words used
 >   by this astronaut to me were "there was an inordinate large
 >   amount of money and personal time by the Secretary of Defense
 >   William Cohen was spent to locate this evidence, and he was
 >   never given access to it."


Grant, I agree with what Kevin Randle recently posted to you
that most of the Disclosure witnesses had no more evidence to
offer than stories. The above story is another example. Steven
Greer does not seem to understand that stories are nothing more
than tales unless they are investigated and determined if there
are leads that can generate evidence, if there is any proof to
the evidence, etc. Testimonials are not cases unless they can
prove something. Any professional investigator knows to never
report on a case until one is built. But then again, Greer was
talking with Art Bell, "the crackwhore of the UFO world". To me,
Bell wouldn't know what constitutes proof even if it bit him on
the butt.

All the stories of Disclosre should have been thoroughly and
professionally investigated (not by UFO field investigators) by
people with professional training. If those with stories to tell
could not provide any links to evidence that confirmed their
stories then they should have been eliminated. I don't want to
toot my own horn but I am a graduate of both the regular and
advanced programs from a respected detective academy.

I'm not saying one needs to have a professional education to
begin investigating UFO matters. To me, the MUFON field examiner
manual trains you to be a reporter and to investigate at the
investigative reporter level. There are a number of UFO cases
that indicate they are worthy of professional investigating and
case building.

I would love to see some of the people on this List who have
professional backgrounds in areas of investigation (lawyers and
their investigators, private detectives, people with police
excperience, military officers, etc) work together to get to the
bottom of some of the more solid cases.

Of course, as usual, funding is a problem. Perhaps you should
hook me up with the Rockefellers. Then I can be able to
investigate with my 205mph Ferrari and get to locations in a
hurry before the aliens leave.<g>.


 >     UFO Interest in the Clinton White House

<snip>

 >"To my surprise, a brief reply was sent to me by the President
 >immediately following the date of Richard Hoagland's Washington
 >Press Club Conference in which Hoagland cited lunar anomalies
 >that support possible conclusions of ancient alien artifacts on
 >those worlds. The reply was overnighted by Priority Mail in a
 >priority envelope. (Previous correspondence from Bill Clinton
 >was always by standard first class mail.) My letter to the
 >President had been marked Personal and Confidential. His reply
 >was marked Personal."

I am thankful for Paul Davids' effort but Hoagland's press
conference was an embarassment.

<snip>

 >Lindsey was one of the Arkansas Clinton inner circle members who
 >helped pick many of the cabinet members for Clinton during the
 >transition in 1992-93. He may have been a part of another group
 >of "close associates" of President Clinton who were briefed in
 >Little Rock after Clinton realized he was being stonewalled on
 >his UFO inquiries. The briefer to this group of Clinton
 >associates was Mars and UFO investigator Richard Hoagland.

 >The mention of the briefing was first made public in an
 >interview Hoagland conducted with Art Bell. It received very
 >little attention at the time, due partly to disbelief that a
 >group attached to the President would be gathered together in
 >Little Rock, to obtain UFO information that the President should
 >be able to get with a phone call.

I can't believe he was one of the briefers to higher people in
the Clinton administration. I hope he didn't do his usual spiel.

<snip>

 >Dr. Greer gave the most significant briefing to a member of the
 >Clinton administration in December 1993. It was a three-hour
 >briefing given to President Clinton's Director of Central
 >Intelligence James Woolsey. Dr. Greer described his briefing of
 >Woolsey as a presentation of "the scientific data, along with a
 >well conceived assessment, and set of recommendations."

 >Greer stated that he had been told that Woolsey "had an interest
 >in the subject and felt that the subject was valid, that he had
 >not been able to find out anything through channels, even though
 >he was the head of the CIA, the NSA, the NRO, and other civilian
 >intelligence agencies."

 >Woolsey was very moved by the evidence Greer presented and
 >offered to do what he could to come up with answers. As
 >supported by a recently declassified document from the CIA,
 >Woolsey did appear (as claimed by Greer) to try to track down
 >some UFO cases given to him to check. These efforts were
 >unsuccessful. He found himself was faced with the "empty file
 >syndrome" - no evidence pro or con.

 >His wife Sue Woolsey, Chief Operating Officer for the National
 >Academy of Sciences, was also present for the Greer briefing.
 >She shared an interest in the phenomena, as she and her husband
 >had been involved in a daylight sighting during the late sixties
 >in New Hampshire. Her interest in Greer's work also appeared to
 >continue after the briefing, and even after her husband was
 >replaced as DCI. She was reportedly in attendance for the
 >special UFO briefings Dr. Greer held for government and
 >congressional members in Washington, in April 1997.

 >The internal UFO inquiries made at the CIA by James Woolsey
 >following the Greer briefing began what became a new whitewash
 >CIA study on the agency's involvement in the UFO phenomena over
 >the years 1947-1990. It was titled "CIA's Role in the Study of
 >UFOs, 1947-1990." CIA historian Gerald K. Haines wrote it. In
 >the introduction to the paper Haines wrote of James Woolsey's
 >UFO involvement,

 >"In late 1993, after being pressured by Ufologists for the
 >release of additional CIA information on UFOs, R. James Woolsey
 >ordered another review of all Agency files on UFOs."

I sure hope the case that Greer made was a far cry better than
his Disclosure Project and his personal statements. I never
tried to contact his people to try to obtain that. Does anyone
on the list know?

Also, I had a file sent to me with Disclosure Project witness
statement testimonies. My hard disk got corrupted and I can't
recover it. Does anyone have their stories without me paying a
fee? If Greer's project was more professional I'd be glad to pay
for it. Unfortunately I feel that the Disclosure Press
Conference was unprofessional and a damage to legitimate
UFOlogy. For that reason I balk at giving it any money. I would
like to reread some statements that are in writing.

<snip>

Grant, thanks for all the interesting information regarding the
Clintons and their administration. I never was a fan of Melvin
Laird but I'll be glad to invite nim over for coffee and cake if
he will brief me and show me the files. Bill and Hillary are
also invited. I promise that if we partake of my favorite
refreshment we won't inhale. I'm not talking about clouding our
minds with Gesundt's Gripple or good ol' Larry (burp) Hatch's
beer. I've always wondered what drug Richard Hoagland may be on.
Maybe he once hit his head on a Mars globe. Sorry Richard, but
you know I love you.


Tschus,

Josh Goldstein










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                   Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:40:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:25:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Goldstein


 >Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:16:52 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That

 >>From: James Oberg <JamesOberg@aol.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:59:53 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Evening James, List

 >>>I wonder how many Americans realise that man was put on the moon
 >>>by the same man the built the V2?

 >>Right, they did two favors for the world -- bankrupted Nazi
 >>Germany on an idiotic inefficient war machine, that otherwise
 >>the resources for it would have prolonged the war another six
 >>months at least, and second, returned to their childhood ideals
 >>to open the solar system to huamnity. Show some gratitude!!

 >Pray tell, why should I show gratitude?

 >Werner Von Braun was directly responsible for the deaths of
 >thousands of British people. Why should I be grateful that he
 >put an American on the moon with the same technology that killed
 >so many of my countrymen?


Sean,

Don't you know that when Dr. Von Braun was asked how he could
launch rockets that were going to kill civilians he allegedly
said, "It was my department to send them up but it was a
different department responsible for where they landed".

Josh










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             Cydonian Imperative: 09-12-01 'Labyrinth Of Night'

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:00:07 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:27:52 -0400
Subject: Cydonian Imperative: 09-12-01 'Labyrinth Of Night'


The Cydonian Imperative

http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html

Labyrinth Of Night
by
Allen Steele

Reviewed by Mac Tonnies

Allen Steele's "Labyrinth of Night," now back in print, is the
only science fiction book I know of that deals with the Face and
pyramids on Mars, and for that reason may eventually come to be
viewed as unusually prescient. Steele is a very capable writer
of hard SF, and "Labyrinth of Night" bristles with technical
detail. Unfortunately, Steele's preoccupation with hardware
overshadows the sheer alien mystery that should rightfully be
the core of this novel. Those interested in Cydonia and what we
might find there may find themselves aghast at Steele's somewhat
meandering fictional exploration of the Martian enigmas, but
"Labyrinth of Night" succeeds as a page-turner and as an
excellent portrait of the human future in space.

To order from Amazon.com, please visit The Cydonian Imperative.








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                          Secrecy News -- 09/12/01

From: "Steven Aftergood" <saftergood@igc.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:11:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:29:45 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 09/12/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
September 12, 2001


**      AFTER SEPTEMBER 11
**      WHITE HOUSE BLOCKS RELEASE OF REAGAN PAPERS
**      FRUS SERIES IS NOT IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


AFTER SEPTEMBER 11

The September 11 terrorist attack on the World Trade Center and
the Pentagon has left a void that surpasses human comprehension.
Above and beyond the countless individual tragedies, the
sophistication of the attack and the extraordinary skill that
was harnessed to accomplish its mission of death and destruction
reveal a dimension of evil that is usually hidden.

Just as the 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor provided much of the
impetus for creation of a "central" intelligence agency, so the
terrorist attack of September 11, which apparently killed an
even larger number of Americans, is likely to shape the future
design of U.S. national security policy in equally fundamental
ways.

But the lessons learned from the cruel attack need to be drawn
carefully and, insofar as it is possible, dispassionately.

"Tragic events almost inevitably result in the promulgation of
legislation/executive action that reacts to the moment,"
according to one Administration official with long experience in
such matters.  "Most often, these 'solutions' turn out to be
short-sighted."

Within the little world of government secrecy policy,
"additional classification categories are something I would not
be at all surprised to see invoked or suggested," the official
said.  Also, "Agencies like the CIA and DOD may very well use
this occasion to note that declassification is nice, but it is
diverting resources (money and people) from their primary
missions."

Today, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld lashed out at
unauthorized disclosures of classified information and said such
disclosures are interfering with the nation's response to
terrorism.  Speaking at a Pentagon press briefing he said:

"It's important to underline that when people deal with
intelligence information and make it available to people who are
not cleared for that classified information, the effect is to
reduce the chances that the United States government has to
track down and deal with the people who have perpetrated the
attacks on the United States and killed so many Americans."

Secretary Rumsfeld did not explain what prompted his comments,
but he may have been responding to remarks by Senator Orrin
Hatch quoted in the Washington Post today.  Sen. Hatch cited
U.S. intelligence intercepts of communications between
supporters of Usama Bin Laden referring to the attack as
evidence that Bin Laden was involved.

See excerpts from Secretary Rumsfeld's briefing here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/09/dod091201.html

One response to the latest crisis that is already on the agenda
is a sharp increase in the intelligence budget, even though
there is no clear correlation between intelligence spending and
agency performance.

"The Intelligence Community is our nation's vital early warning
system and we must support its mission to the fullest extent
possible," said Senate Intelligence Chairman Bob Graham in a
September 6 press release on the FY 2002 Intelligence
Authorization Act.  "The funding increase for intelligence
contained in this bill represents what must be the first
installment of a multi-year effort to correct serious
deficiencies that have developed over the past decade in the
Intelligence Community."  See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/09/ssci_010906.html

The new bill does not include the controversial proposal to
criminalize unauthorized disclosures of classified information,
but it does require the Justice Department to assess the need
for such a measure and to report back by May 1, 2002.

House Judiciary Committee members Rep. John Conyers and Rep. Bob
Barr wrote to the Senate Intelligence Committee on September 6
asserting their committee's jurisdiction over any such anti-leak
legislation and urging the Senate committee to dispense with it
altogether.  See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/09/conyersbarr.html


WHITE HOUSE BLOCKS RELEASE OF REAGAN PAPERS

The Bush Administration has moved for the third time to delay
the release of White House papers from the Reagan Administration
in an apparent violation of the Presidential Records Act of
1978.

In an August 31 letter to the National Archives, White House
counsel Alberto R. Gonzales said rather obscurely that yet
another delay was required "to review the many constitutional
and legal questions raised by potential release of sensitive and
confidential Presidential records and to decide upon the proper
legal framework and process to employ in reviewing such records
on an ongoing basis."

American University historian Anna K. Nelson said the White
House action to withhold the records placed the Bush
Administration at odds with the clear requirements of the
Presidential Records Act.

"I think it's a scandal to hold them back," she told the
Associated Press. "The whole point of the Presidential Records
Act is to open documents. It goes against the spirit of the
law."

See the correspondence from White House counsel Gonzales here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/09/presrecs.html


FRUS SERIES IS NOT IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW

The State Department's "Foreign Relations of the United States"
(FRUS) series, which is the official record of US foreign
policy, is not being published in the timely fashion required by
law, according to a new Senate Foreign Relations Committee
report.

A 1991 law requires that FRUS provide a "thorough, accurate and
reliable documentary record of major U.S. foreign policy
decisions and significant U.S. diplomatic activity" and that it
be published not more than 30 years after the events described.

"A decade after the law was enacted, the Department remains out
of compliance with this provision," the Senate Committee found.
"The Department has yet to publish 11 of the 34 volumes from the
Johnson Administration, which ended in 1969. The main reason for
the shortfall, says the Department, is the 'time-consuming
declassification process'."

In its defense, the State Department told the Committee that it
has received uneven cooperation from the Central Intelligence
Agency, which has recently imposed restrictions on research by
State Department historians.  See excerpts from the Senate
report here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/frus.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:
subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]


Secrecy News is archived at:
    http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691









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                                     Re:

From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:33:32 +0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:31:47 -0400
Subject: Re:


 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:14:49 -0400
 >Subject:

 >WBZ radio read the names of the passengers and crew of the two
 >airliners which originated at Logan Airport, Boston, and which
 >were hijacked for the terrorist attack. Due to my duties, I did
 >not hear them all, but an Australian Quantas official was among
 >the dead.

 >Also, earlier a New York Stock Exchange official said that many
 >other nationals work at the World Trade Center. People from the
 >UK, Canada, Japan, German, France worked at WTC. They had
 >nothing to do with US policy.

 >How unfortunate!

 >God Bless all the victims and their families.
 >Jan Aldrich

Jan,

It's unfortunate any nationality has to suffer even an eensy bit
of this heartache, but yes, Australia has 3 confirmed dead (2
were on two of the planes) and 84 are unaccounted for who were
to be in or around the buildings that day. I also have a distant
Dutch relative who has yet to be reached who was doing some
consulting work in the WTC. It has really touched the lives of
every square inch of God's green earth.

Another sad outcome is the attitude several of my fellow Aussie
country men who have spat on Arabs in the street, defiled
several Mosques and even several arab children have had bottles
thrown at them. This is probably not isolated to our country, I
have heard arab companies in the US are recieving death threats
etc. We really need to pray for understanding and compassion so
other "innocent" poeple don't get hurt.


"And Grace will lead us home"

Sharon
West Aust.









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                 Unidentified Aircraft At Second WTC Attack

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@AOL.COM>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 06:38:01 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:34:44 -0400
Subject: Unidentified Aircraft At Second WTC Attack

List Members,

I can shed some light now on the report of an unidentified
aircraft at the terrorist acts of war against our country, and
the civilized world, at the World Trade Center towers.

I just watched several repeats on NBC tv network of a video clip
of the second hijacked airliner attack on the South Tower at
about 9:02 AM on Tuesday, a clip I had never seen before. It
looked like it was taken from a mile or more away to the SE from
Manhattan, possibly in the Civic Center area across East River,
looking towards the WTC towards the NW. The video camera zoomed
in and out of a chain-link fence so it is a very distinctive
video clip.

About 10 seconds after the airliner slammed into the South Tower
moving from left to right, another aircraft at a higher
elevation angle and more distant can be seen also traveling left
to right. It can be seen for about 10 seconds before
disappearing behind the smoking buildings. It looks like it had
an angular size roughly 10 to 20 times smaller than the hijacked
air liner. Therefore, if it was a similar-sized aircraft it
would have been very roughly 10 miles away, or if a small civil
aviation aircraft perhaps a few miles away over Jersey City.

Either way it looks like it was air traffic flying on a N or NE
heading, evidently flying out of Newark airport. Not a UFO.









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                          Secrecy News -- 09/14/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@igc.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:51:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:36:39 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 09/14/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
September 14, 2001


**      CONGRESS RUSHES IN
**      DECLASSIFICATION INCHES FORWARD


CONGRESS RUSHES IN

In an initial response to the terrorist attacks of September 11,
the U.S. Senate on Thursday night adopted a spate of legislative
measures dubbed "The Combating Terrorism Act of 2001."

Most of the hurriedly assembled legislation, which was offered
as an amendment to the Commerce, Justice and State
Appropriations bill, consists of new reporting requirements and
sense-of-Congress declarations that are unlikely to do much to
combat terrorism.

In a slightly more substantive move that appears to be based on
a misunderstanding, the legislation also instructs the CIA to
rescind its 1995 guidelines governing the recruitment of
informants who have committed human rights violations.

This was a response to the assertion made by some conservative
critics and editorial writers that the guidelines had crippled
CIA's human intelligence efforts by imposing bureaucratic
obstacles to the recruitment of spies.

But that premise has been vigorously disputed by the CIA itself.

"The notion that our human rights guidelines are an impediment
to fighting terrorism is simply wrong," said CIA spokesman Bill
Harlow in a June 4, 2000 statement. "No one knows better than we
do that when combating terrorism it is often necessary to deal
with unsavory individuals. But we do so with eyes wide open and
appropriate notification to senior officials."

Accordingly to Harlow, the CIA has "never, ever turned down a
request to use someone, even someone with a record of human
rights abuses, if we thought that person could be valuable in
our overall counterterrorism program."

With a minimum of debate, the Senate also moved to expand the
scope of criminal wiretapping authority.

Senators Leahy and Levin complained that the full implications
and costs of the various measures were unclear and warranted
full hearings. But the legislation was nevertheless adopted on
voice vote, with a suggestion that it could later be modified in
a House-Senate conference.

The September 13 Senate floor debate on these anti-terrorism
measures may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/s091301.html


DECLASSIFICATION INCHES FORWARD

Two years ago, Congress enacted an arduous procedure for the
re-review of previously declassified documents at the National
Archives to ensure that classified nuclear weapons data was not
inadvertently released in the process of declassification. The
Department of Energy (DOE) is slowly implementing that
supplementary review procedure.

Of the 220 million pages of documents that had been both
declassified and made available to the public between 1995 and
1998, DOE reviewers have now cleared 190 million pages,
according to Kenneth M. Stein of DOE. The remaining 30 million
pages have been withdrawn from public access. They are being
processed at a rate of 500,000 pages per month, a task that will
not be completed for five years.

An additional 200 million pages had been declassified but not
publicly released at the time Congress enacted its new review
requirement. Of these, only 10 million pages have been cleared
under the new review procedures. 190 million pages await review.

The withdrawal or withholding of declassified records has
significantly disrupted the activities of researchers who
actually make use of such records. In an effort to mitigate this
problem, DOE and the National Archives have established a
Review-on-Demand procedure by which researchers can identify
records of particular interest for review earlier than might
otherwise be the case. Up to 50,000 pages per month can be
accommodated under this procedure, Mr. Stein said at a meeting
with historians yesterday.

Aside from declassification issues, public access to these
records is further hampered by an enormous processing backlog at
the National Archives. Such processing is required to prepare
the raw documents for orderly public access.

Because many Archive personnel have been diverted to
implementation of the congressionally-mandated Nazi War Crimes
Disclosure Act over the past year and a half, the routine
processing of declassified records has suffered.

"We have a huge backlog," said Michael Kurtz of the Archives.
"We are far behind."


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:

subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:
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_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691








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               Re: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike' - Chris

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:04:25 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:42:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike' - Chris


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 9 Sep 2001 22:33:16 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Lara Johnstone Ends 'Hunger-Strike'

 >On Sunday September 9 - Day 44 Lara Johnstone made the decision
 >to end her hunger strike to encourage President Bush to fulfill
 >his promise to Charles Huffer to disclose the truth about UFOs.
 >She discussed her decision to end the hunger strike, prior to
 >ending it, with some of the supporters who had been with her for
 >most of her effort to achieve disclosure.

 >When I talked to her Sunday evening, she said the hunger strike
 >was supposed to focus on disclosure. It was now focused on her
 >and the time to end it had come. Minutes later at rest stop on
 >her bus trip from Oakland to Los Angeles to speak at a
 >conference Lara stopped and ate a burger. "It was a small
 >vegetable one," she told me in a phone call minutes later.

I for one came in on this Hunger Strike protest after it had
started and like coming in on a meeting that has already started
I wasn't up to speed on the issue. Because of this, I stupidly
thought Lara was laid up in bed in a lot worse shape than Lara
was. Shame on me for breaking a golden rule; Check out the issue
twice, THEN add any relative comments.

So my apologies to Lara for my misinterpretation as to the state
of her health.

 >Despite a letter from her congress woman Barbara Lee requesting
 >that the President provide Lara Johnstone with a reply to her
 >July 26, 2001 letter, it appears that the President will not be
 >forced to answer mail from constituents.

 >Lara told me that, in the end, Mr. Bush had no support to make a
 >UFO disclosure. The American people and even many inside of the
 >UFO community have many issues on their mind ahead of
 >Disclosure. In order to make such a big move the President needs
 >broad consensus. It was evident this did not exist.

 >Even many inside the UFO community were not prepared to do
 >anything more than talk about the issue. On many occasions I
 >discussed this fact with Lara. She stated that she was quite
 >surprised at how different the UFO community was than other
 >protest communities.

The trick, Lara and Grant, is to get things done without
appearing to really be doing anything at all. Fighting fire with
fire to coin a common phase. This board, while it serves a
wonderful purpose, is nothing more than a platform for debunkers
and ringers to ensure nothing really ever gets done and if
something or someone is getting anything done, then they know
about it and can mount a deference to counter it.

It is one of those cases where going public works against you,
instead of for you. Many here would be very surprised as to the
sorts of people and government institute staff that read this
board on a daily bases and then do reports on what their read
here.

 >It appears to this author that the UFO community is a community
 >in diapers whose time to contribute to the world is still some
 >time in the future. I told Lara that if her effort for
 >disclosure worked UFO people would become the new power, and
 >we'd surely blow up the world in the first week with our
 >fighting.

Some here are Grant, but no all. You have to remember we are no
dealing with only those interested in UFO disclosure here, many
of those we are up against when trying to disclose UFO
information are seasoned professionals. Trained in the art of
counter intelligence. It is a case of; 'know thy enemy' and plan
accordingly. They are not our enemies or at least I like to
think they aren't, but these people have a job to do and they do
it very well indeed.

 >The attacks on Lara from the UFO community, particularly the UFO
 >UpDates List took their toll. Lara told me when asked for a
 >comment about this said that naysayers exist in all movements.
 >However, in other movements those striving to achieve an
 >objective join together and ignore the noise. This does not
 >happen as much in the UFO community, and is maybe one of the
 >things that can be learned from her hunger strike.

 >Lara will be putting up a statement on September 11 about her
 >decision to end the hunger strike. It will appear on her web
 >site.

 >www.bushufodisclosure.com

 >Many will say that the hunger strike is a failure because Bush
 >was able to just ignore the issue and continue on with his plans
 >to drill for more oil, and ignore treaties dealing with weapons
 >in space and green house gases.

It has been a learning experience for you guys and I am sorry to
say but I really don't think you had any idea as to the scale
you are up against. But you have done a wonderful job Lara as
with you staff and you have my unconditional support and
admiration. So don't let the words of a few get to you guys.
These few do not represent all of Human kind nor do they even
speak for many of us here

 >The analysis is not that simple. I firmly believe that
 >disclosure will not come from some 'hail Mary' pass play that
 >scores the winning touchdown. Like evolution it will occur in
 >small bits rather than large bites. It comes from people like
 >Lara who put one foot in front of the other and edge the ball
 >further down the field. The ball is definitely closer to the
 >goal line than it was 44 days ago.

Here here, but there is a flag on the last play; Holding;
Defence; five-yard penalty; automatic first down. *S* I wish,
but unfortunately the other team don t play by the rules as it
is their ball game and they make the rules, as we all know.

 >When the UFO community has moved the ball over and over down the
 >field, and when the general population is ready - then
 >disclosure will come. Let's all pray for $20.00 a gallon gas
 >prices.

Alternative fuel and alterative power is here, many here may not
know of the number of Australian inventers that have been forced
to sell their ideas and research to a over seas companies. If
their don't sell these inventors seem to meet with unexplained
deaths. But the interesting thing is that their research or
ideas are then just shelved. Why I often ask? Exposure a
magazine here did an article on the 'Raping of Australia' back
in 1996 or 97 cannot remember which year and I a too lazy to
look it up. But this mag as with a TV special looked into this
subject.

I know all about this first hand as I stupidly wrote to one of
the so-called people mentioned in the article who wanted to see
end such thing happening in Australia, I wrote to a person
called Bill Owen about using cells to retain information, in
other words a bio cell hard drive. He wanted to meet with me but
said he didn't know much about what I was on about. Then, it
turned out that he had a son working for a company overseas and
that company shortly after announced it was working on much
along the same lines.

I of course went to ASIO our national secret service about this,
but I was told I would have to patent the idea first before they
could do anything.

Anyway, to cut to the chase, I didn't patent my idea as this
would have given the idea in full to everyone. The company that
said it was working on the same idea as mine disappeared off the
net; as I maybe stupid but I wasn't stupid enough to give Owen
my idea in full, and Exposure write a follow article about Bill
Owen and how he wasn't the person he said he was and how much of
what he claimed and wrote about in past articles was taken from
others and written up as his own, without their consent.

 >People are not ready for disclosure yet. Perhaps that is why the
 >aliens have not ended the mystery with their own landing on the
 >White House lawn, or by cutting in during Monday night football
 >to announce their arrival. They can see the baby bottles
 >sticking out of our back pockets, and know we have things to
 >work out first.

I really believe that most people today are in fact closet
believers. If the Alien debate did become fact tomorrow I think
many people would say they always thought that Aliens were real.

Most people just seem too scared of reticule, if they say they
believe in UFO's and Aliens.

 >Lara wished to thank all those who have offered her support over
 >the many days of her effort. She was moved by many of the
 >letters, and considers many of those she has met friends for
 >life.

 >Lara will continue to work for disclosure as she still believes
 >this one of the critical issues of our time. If in the future
 >she believes that a hunger strike would be supported, and that
 >it is the thing that would be needed she said she would do it
 >again.

I sure hope Lara isn't giving up the fight. I think much has
been achieved and more will be achieve by her. I would however
suggest a reworking of tactics for the next campaign.

One suggestion I have, if I may, is if Lara does get a chance to
ask question of the likes of president Bush, don't ask straight
out if UFO's are real. Trap him into answering this question in
an around_about _way as no one in his position will ever answer
this question straight out. A mistake I see a lot of people
making when their do finally get to ask the big questions.

 >Speaking on behalf of those close to Lara I would like to thank
 >Lara for her contribution to the Disclosure movement. Even
 >though they were never made public, we know the dramatic things
 >she lost in taking on this challenge. They were things that we
 >more earth bound souls would never think of giving up.

 >I am sure that those closest to Lara consider her a hero, and
 >will join her in a minute to help her in any new plans she has
 >for disclosure. She has been a prime example of sacrifice,
 >determination, and selflessness. Her contribution to this field
 >will long be remembered.

It is the little things in our lives that makes all the
difference and Lara has made a big difference.

                       *********************

It was while I was writing this that news of the World Trade
Centre Towers were hit came live on the TV. Needless to say this
act of senseless death and destruction left me stunned and
unable to write which is why it has taken me so long to reply.

If the Aliens are up there, I hope they aren't watching us at
the moment as I believe Grant is one hundred percent right when
he said; >"They can see the baby bottles >sticking out of our
back pockets, and know we have things to >work out first."

Let us hope we grown_up soon and learn to work things out the
right way, if for no other reason when our children's sake.


Tophar










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                     Low Seat Uptake On Doomed Flights?

From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 01:10:54 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:44:15 -0400
Subject: Low Seat Uptake On Doomed Flights?


I am sorry if this post may seem a little insensitive, I totally
abhor what has happened, and fully sympathise with the families
and friends of the victims. It occured to me that that there
were  very few passengers on the flights involved in the
atrocities in the US. Is it usual in the US for domestic flights
to be less than half full, or was this unusual?

Regards,


Joe








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                            Notes From A Newsroom

From: Michael Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:22:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:49:29 -0400
Subject: Notes From A Newsroom


Hey Listers,

Read some postings on Media distortion here and having now
completed a work week of 14 hour days this week, in the CITY-TV
newsroom in Toronto, I thought I'd share a few observations.....

First off, we're Canadians so we have the luxury of a small
(very small, it felt like) distancing from the tragedy. But when
my friends hurt, I hurt, too. And I'm a jerk, so I want to pay
back pain with pain.

Despite what some might think, we don't sit around in newsrooms
saying "We won't run the video of people jumping from the 110th
floor... not because its in poor taste but because the bombers
are probably Islamic fundamentalists and as such are more in
line with my left-wing, anti-American leanings." Actually, we
ran the video - precisely what do you think terror is? And
I'm so right-wing I make Ghengis Khan seem like a moderate.

And as for getting it right... well, in a perfect world, we
would, everytime, but for the most part, honest, we don't make
it up. We rely on police officers, fire fighters and other
officials large and small to tell us the truth. So in a fluid
situation, like a fire, disaster or even a raid, we send three
reporters to the scene, they talk to two cops and a fire fighter
(or whatever) and come back with three different viewpoints on
the same events... and the accuracy could be good, bad or
indifferent.

What's that you say? We shouldn't say anything until we're
certain? Okay, that means we sit on word of the arrest of
suspects... which could allow unscrupulous officials the power to
detain people without allowing them legal protection and critics
would complain we surpressed the news. (Do I think ignoring civil
rights is a good idea for people connected with these crimes? I
think boiling the bastards in oil is a good idea... don't get me
started.)

Perhaps surveilence cameras over everything would allow the
media to be more accurate. Terrorists might force North American
governments to go that way.

I hope not.

Some of you won't want to read this next part or won't believe
it. I don't care.

I'm proud of my colleagues, at my station, at my competitors
here in Toronto and the American media. Not only have we been
surprisingly restrained but there have also been repeated
admonishments everywhere, in Canada and the U.S., to keep cool,
to blame individuals, not entire ethnic groups or religions.
That's very reassuring.

The impact of the electronic medium is powerful. Wouldn't every
mosque in the U.S. be burning tonight if Dan Rather and Co. had
gone on air and said Burn those muslims out?

Instead the message has been tolerance and for the most part,
that's been the reaction.

But after four days of this filling my every working moment, I
weep at the staggering loss of life, I'm sickened at the mind
capable of ordering up homicide on this scale and fear we will
all live a little diminished by these events.


Michael J. Woods

The truth can STAY out there
Send in a good FANTASY










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                            And Another Thing...

From: Michael Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:40:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:50:51 -0400
Subject: And Another Thing...


By the way, Listers,


Has anyone seen any video of V.P. Dick Cheney since Tuesday that
had to have been shot since Tuesday? Reports have him at Camp
David and he was the only big Washington mover that wasn't at
today's memorial service.

I haven't seen any video of him that couldn't have been shot
months earlier... and I'm wondering if perhaps news of the
attack was too much for his heart and he's in intensive care...
or even worse condition? Would someone please straighten out my
mis-informed butt.

Thanks,

Michael J. Woods... often known as Woodsy

The truth can STAY out there
Send in a good FANTASY.









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                Re: Wired News Covers UFO Disclosure - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@AOL.COM>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:44:08 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:53:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Wired News Covers UFO Disclosure - Sparks


 >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:57:01 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: CE: - Wired News Covers UFO Disclosure


 >>Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 02:09:52 EDT
 >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@AOL.COM>
 >>Subject: Re: Wired News Covers UFO Disclosure
 >>To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

 ><snip>

 >>Military jet were scrambled from a nearby US aircraft carrier
 >>in the north Atlantic. ...UFO, which was monitored on multiple
 >>radars including NORAD.

 ><snip>

 >Without this bit of information which you selectively ignored,
 >your "proof" that this CSETI witness was lying vanishes Brad.
 >Yes, a SINGLE radar may not be able to track a UFO moving so
 >rapidly over such large distances in the time for one sweep of
 >the radar, but MULTIPLE radars can.

You have selectively distorted the CSETI account which states
clearly that the UFO proved its fantastic acceleration by moving
(1,100 miles) from Newfoundland to Norfolk in "_One_sweep_ of the
radar."  There is _nothing_ about _multiple_ radars in _that_
statement.  Your desperate effort to force other radars into
THAT statement are disingenuous.

I'm snipping the rest of this so the focus is not lost on this
bold-faced lie by the liar witness.









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                         Re: Words Fail - Waskiewicz

From: John Waskiewicz <jwaskiew@peoplepc.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:00:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:57:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Words Fail - Waskiewicz


 >From: Cory Cameron <kecksburg@cnwl.igs.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Words Fail
 >Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 17:21:16 -0400

 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
 >>Date: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:02 AM
 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Words Fail

 >>Gentle Reader,

 >>Horrified eyes glued to a TV set. Incomprehensible. Awful.
 >>Sad.

 >>ebk

 >I think I speak on behalf of all Canadians who condemn this
 >unmentionable act. My heart goes out to all Americans due to
 >these horrific acts of violence that have occured recently. For
 >4 days I have remained fixed to the television set desperately
 >trying to fathom why people would do this. And I must say that I
 >am at a loss as to how people would conjure up enough boldness
 >to commit these hideous acts..... no morals, no love, no
 >integrity. A sad thing.

 >Most Kind, Caring, and Supportive regards,

 >Cory Cameron

Aas an American I thank you for your kind thoughts, I too have
been glued to the TV.

I just wonder " has the sleeping giant been awaken? " and if so
is it the great nations of the planet?

Who will now arise as one  and show us all how we are
earthlings, not just Americans, Canadians, etcetera, and put
aside whatever distinctions we may have labeled ourselves in the
past.

Perhaps good may arise from this evil act, in the strangest
ways.









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                          The Devil Made Them Do It

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:42:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 08:01:36 -0400
Subject: The Devil Made Them Do It


Ladies & Gents:

Check this one out,

http://dailynews.philly.com/content/daily%5Fnews/2001/09/13/local/DEVI13C.htm


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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                   Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 00:11:22 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 08:04:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Mortellaro


 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That
 >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 03:01:42 -0400

 >>Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:19:54 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Jones

 >>>From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 08:14:17 EDT
 >>>Subject: Nazi UFOs And All That
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Tim, long time no see.

 >>How's the married father these days?

 >>I wonder how many Americans realise that man was put on the moon
 >>by the same man the built the V2?

 >>I wonder how many really realise what the Paper-clip conspiracy
 >>was all about, for it wasn't just getting German scientists out
 >>of Germany.

 >>Kindest regards

 >>In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.

 >>Sean Jones

 >Well, duh, not many of us don't remember watching von Braun on
 >the national Disneyland TV program in the pre-sputnik 1950's,
 >because many Americans were born after this.

What? What? Just what the heck izzat suppos-a mean? I am one of
those born before 1950. And there is a whole lotta goombahs out
there same as me. We are the... uh... the alta cockas of this
great nation. Baby Bloomers... Boomers, sorry. Crimey, we
constitoot vast, fat majority of dimbulbs who were just young
enough to _not_ realize that Von Braun was a NAZI pawn or worse,
and just old enough to know he was Cherman.

And what we did know of him was what Unca Walt told us on those
Sundays which supported spaced out programmes (in honor of our
Brit fiends... friends). My friends were not nearly as
interested in such programs as these as I was. I think most of
them preferred "Fantasy Land" more.

 >Paperclip conspiracy? How interesting to have a conspiracy
which >is headlined in the newspapers discussed on the radio and
 >television and vigoriously debated by various government
 >agencies.

Damned if I knew it. Even the goddamned paper clips are a
conspiracy. Sheesh. This country is headed for a fall. In fact,
Fall happens real soon I here.

 >Ever hear of the spoils of war? First was Overcast. At the time
 >it was thought that the war with Japan would drag on in at
least >1946. Overcast was an attempt to use German technology,
especial >rocket technology against the Japanese.

 >After the island fighting in the Pacific, the military was
under >a lot of pressure to use poison gas on the Japanese in
Okinawa. >There were headlines many newspapers and on the
editorial pages >said, "Give our Marines a break, gas the Japs."
General Howlin' >Mad Smith recounted this in his autobiograph.
Considering that >the Olympic (Majestic) operation against Japan
foresaw over one >million Allied casualities, you can see why
there was an effort >to exploit German technology to bring an
early end to the War.

Yeah... tough shot that was. Well, listen... at least we didn't
gas the buggers. We were much kinder and gentler. We _Nuked_
'em.

 >The War ended against Japan and Overcast became Paperclip.

 >I remember seeing newsreels at the movie theatres about the
 >missile program at White Sands and then at Red Stone with
 >retrospective background shots showing the German scientists
 >arriving at Wright Field--all standing around smoking cigaretts
 >like crazy and looking pretty miserable--then cuts to V-2 shots
 >at White Sands.

 >Paperclip conspiracy? Give it a rest. Sell this drivel somewhere
 >else. Most were aware of what was going on at the time. Ever
 >hear of the record album, "A Night Completely Wasted with Tom
 >Lehr." History books are wonderful things, but do no good left
 >unopen on the shelves.

 >Jan Aldrich

Dear Jan,

I wish to notify this List of a new product from the Gripple
Werken, our factory in Deutchland. We call the new product,
which consists of a new and interesting use for the dried and
compressed Grappa of our pressings (very absorbent), a product
for our ageing Baby Bloomer Pop... You lations. We call it
(thank you Saturday Night Live) "Ooops, I crapped my pants!"

Of course, the same silly fossify applies to the UFO conundrum.
And it happens every time I get abducted... or perceive I've
been abducted. And it almost _always_ happens when they stick it
to me. Which is how I got the idea for OICMP .... Oooops I
crapped my pants.

Thank you,

Jim








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             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke

From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:36:17 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 08:06:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 02:50:46 +0100

 >>From: David Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 18:38:01 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001

James wrote:

 >I'm pleased to confirm that contentions previously expressed can
 >evidently be proven as factual.

 >Courtesy of Jenny Randles, we can now further appreciate the
 >issues in their true context.

You clear re-statement of the basic facts of what was clearly
stated by Nick Pope in interviews with two of Britain's most
respected UFOlogists over five years ago is appreciated;
however, I feel that we are wasting our time.

It is only possible to hold a discussion based upon the rules of
evidence if others respect those same rules. What we have seen -
and it has become a depressingly familiar sight - is that when
such an approach is taken all we get from the likes of Bruni and
Sparks is abuse and the most embarrassing ill-informed ridicule
that is typical of those who are bereft of an answer.

Having painted herself into a corner in her blind support for a
lost cause, Bruni's arrogance is such that she will go to any
lengths to avoid losing face. The more she tries to belittle the
hard work and experience of others, the more it reflects badly
upon her own credibility.

The direct questions that remain to be answered include:

1. Why does Nick Pope now claim to have been familiar with the
DIS file on the Rendlesham case when all his pre-August 2001
statements clearly stated that no such file existed, or if it
did he had not seen it?

2. Why does Nick Pope maintain there was no MOD cover-up over
Rendlesham and yet is happy to support the claims of Bruni and
Birdsall whose arguments directly contradict his own stance?

3. How can Georgina Bruni claim to be reporting objectively on
the Rendlesham case whilst acting as a unquestioning mouthpiece
for disinformation as is evident from (2) and (3) above.

I predict we will not receive an answer, only more attempts to
change the subject or heap ridicule upon those who would dare to
question the motivations that lie behind this mass of
contradictions.

It's ironic that we are being asked to accept there was a
cover-up when its promoters are involved in a cover-up of their
own!

It's not so much a case of "you can't tell the people" but more
of how long can they spin this one out before they are badly
caught out.

Best from

Dave Clarke,
www.flyingsaucery.com

"All that studying on fairies should not be taken too seriously.
Believing in flying lighthouses and radioactive rabbits and
pretending to be James Bond may be fun, but isn't it time you
grew up and looked at the real world."

--Georgina Bruni, believer in time-travelling aliens,
September 2001.











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             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke

From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:12:43 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 08:08:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 06:02:21 +0100

Hi James,

 >Regarding any suggestion that the released Ministry of Defence
 >file contained some correspondence from Jenny Randles which
 >'debunked other ufologists' and this should earnestly be
 >detailed as being of utmost meaningful, related, significance...

I've read these letters and Jenny has nothing to be ashamed of;
she was attempting to set up dialogue and exchange with the MOD
rather than simply demanding to see the UFOs hidden away in
secret bases like others whose letters are preserved in the PRO
files.

I'd happily post copies to anyone who is interested if they care
to email me privately.

 >Otherwise, let's not bother with cited, pitiful 'evidence' of
 >nothing other than what some might construe as a personal
 >vendetta, which is increasingly repugnant, transparent, with no
 >substance and exceedingly tiresome to ufologists. Especially the
 >many who appreciate Jenny's immense, objective and significant
 >contributions from a lifetime of so much consequential,
 >published research.

You have hit the nail on the proverbial head. Georgina Bruni has
been waging a particularly unpleasant and vindictive vendetta
against Jenny for some time, and simply cannot resist introducing
personal attacks upon her into posts she has exchanged on this
list that had no connection with the subject.

As you quite rightly say, if it were not for Jenny, Brenda, Dot
and others who kept plugging away at the Rendlesham case back in
the 1981 there would have been no "case file" for Georgina to
base her research upon in the first place. That's some gratitude
for you, and reveals just how vindictive and immature the source
of these attacks actually is.

Personally, I don't agree with Jenny's conclusions on Rendlesham
but no one who expects to be taken seriously can deny that she
has dedicated many years of her life, at considerable personal
expense, to seeking the truth as best she was able at the time.

What I find particularly disturbing is the deafening silence of
those who claim to be friends and supporters of Jenny who are
prepared to allow Georgina Bruni indulge in the unjust character
assassination against someone who has done her no harm.

Dave Clarke,
www.flyingsaucery.com

"All that studying on fairies should not be taken too seriously.
Believing in flying lighthouses and radioactive rabbits and
pretending to be James Bond may be fun, but isn't it time you
grew up and looked at the real world."

--Georgina Bruni, believer in time-travelling aliens,
September 2001.








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                Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 -

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 13:33:34 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:00:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 -


 >From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:36:17 +0100

<snip>

 >2. Why does Nick Pope maintain there was no MOD cover-up over
 >Rendlesham and yet is happy to support the claims of Bruni and
 >Birdsall whose arguments directly contradict his own stance?

<snip>

Dave, apologies if I have missed something, but I saw nothing in
the released documents for the MOD to cover-up? (apart from the
fact that there was a half-hearted and fumbled "investigation"
into the event, which produced no conclusive results). If that
is the case, then surely Nick was right, there was no cover-up?


Regards,

Joe









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                     Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Jones

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:58:24 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 07:34:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Jones


 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That
 >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 03:01:42 -0400

Jan, Errol, Listers

 >Ever hear of the spoils of war?

Methinks the vein of my post has come across far stronger than I
intended.

What I tried to get across was that how many Americans realise
that it was the same scientist that put man on the moon as built
the rockets that destroyed London. That's all. Americans
governments in general like to over look certain details and
hide things that shame them. I _know_ this as fact.

I also know that serving officers and enlisted men had the
choice, fight or die, it was very much like that for the Russian
army as well. I suppose this make _us_ the morally right army
because our fighting men and women had the choice?

War is a shameful thing that we, as the human race, inflict on
our fellow beings. War is usually a pride thing. This is very
hard for me to say because I fear that WWIII could well be
started over the recent atrocities. I honestly think that
President Bush also knows this which is why he is treading
carefully.

I cannot personally condone a course of action that will lead to
the loss of life of a fellow human being.

I have also read in the papers, and on the Internet, that NATO
stands firmly behind the US and that if war is declared then so
be it.

I repeat, I cannot personally condone a course of action that
will lead to the loss of life of a fellow human being.

I think I will say no more on this thread for personal reasons,
not least because I today discovered that someone I knew was in
one of the offices in the south tower, and that there is no news
on Amanda.


Regards

Sean









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   Sep > Sep 16

               Re: Low Seat Uptake On Doomed Flights? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 06:02:04 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 07:37:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Low Seat Uptake On Doomed Flights? - Hatch


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Low Seat Uptake On Doomed Flights?
 >Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 01:10:54 +0100

 >I am sorry if this post may seem a little insensitive, I totally
 >abhor what has happened, and fully sympathise with the families
 >and friends of the victims. It occured to me that that there
 >were very few passengers on the flights involved in the
 >atrocities in the US. Is it usual in the US for domestic flights
 >to be less than half full, or was this unusual?

 >Regards,

 >Joe


Hello Joe:


This is not an insensitive question of yours.

I have seen the same thing myself; one flight packed like
sardines, another so empty I could stretch out and snooze across
three seats, or move to some preferred spot with more leg-room.

Fact is, scheduled airlines must run on schedule, while the
passengers either buy tickets or they don't.

I might speculate that the planners of these horrible missions
carefully chose the date and time to take advantage of mostly
empty flights. That would remove the risk of their suicidal
maniacs getting "bumped" from this or that flight.

Imagine the opposite. Three or four zealots get on board, and
the "volunteer pilot" gets kicked off. Piss poor zealotry.

I took a half-empty plane to Britain once. On my return, I could
hardly find a seat. The 747 was jammed with the British! (One
of them kindly pressed a cold can of Heinekens in my hand.)

I pulled a half-pint of Scottish dew from my pocket and offered
him a swig in return.

The fellow to my right, an off-duty flight attendant for the
same airline, indicated that bringing ones own spirits is rather
frowned upon, but accepted a little drop himself. (So did his
pretty girlfriend, another Stewie.)

Those were kinder, more innocent days; late 1980s. Ronald Reagan
might go bomb Libya or whatever, but the North Atlantic seemed
safe enough.



Very best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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   Sep > Sep 16

                  Re: The Devil Made Them Do It - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 08:17:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 07:39:55 -0400
Subject: Re: The Devil Made Them Do It - Lehmberg


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:42:50 EDT
 >Subject: The Devil Made Them Do It
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Ladies & Gents:

 >Check this one out,

http://dailynews.philly.com/content/daily%5Fnews/2001/09/13/local/DEVI13C.htm

Just the kind of clap-trap fruits and nuts distraction I would
have expected from you , Bob-o. Your skies become increasingly
more cluttered.  I'll bet you think Condon was on the ball...

...Sorry Bob, the devil made me do it.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.









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   Sep > Sep 16

                               Reformed Grappa

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 06:29:47 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 07:42:10 -0400
Subject: Reformed Grappa


 >From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re:
 >Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:33:32 +0800

 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:14:49 -0400
 >>Subject:

 >>WBZ radio read the names of the passengers and crew of the two
 >>airliners which originated at Logan Airport, Boston, and which
 >>were hijacked for the terrorist attack. Due to my duties, I did
 >>not hear them all, but an Australian Quantas official was among
 >>the dead.

 >>Also, earlier a New York Stock Exchange official said that many
 >>other nationals work at the World Trade Center. People from the
 >>UK, Canada, Japan, German, France worked at WTC. They had
 >>nothing to do with US policy.

 >>How unfortunate!

 >>God Bless all the victims and their families.
 >>Jan Aldrich

 >Jan,

 >It's unfortunate any nationality has to suffer even an eensy bit
 >of this heartache, but yes, Australia has 3 confirmed dead (2
 >were on two of the planes) and 84 are unaccounted for who were
 >to be in or around the buildings that day. I also have a distant
 >Dutch relative who has yet to be reached who was doing some
 >consulting work in the WTC. It has really touched the lives of
 >every square inch of God's green earth.

 >Another sad outcome is the attitude several of my fellow Aussie
 >country men who have spat on Arabs in the street, defiled
 >several Mosques and even several arab children have had bottles
 >thrown at them. This is probably not isolated to our country, I
 >have heard arab companies in the US are recieving death threats
 >etc. We really need to pray for understanding and compassion so
 >other "innocent" poeple don't get hurt.

 >"And Grace will lead us home"

 >Sharon
 >West Aust.


Hello Sharon:

I'm not a religious man, but I was a bit touched by the
inclusion of an Islamic Cleric at a recent religious hootenanny
in San Jose, California.

There are and will always be ignorant people in every country
who must identify every cause and effect with some racial or
religious group.

Once again: Fazooze with the corner liquor store did not attack
Western Civilization in New York; some band of psychotic
nut-cases did that.

This terrible series of events was carefully and meticulously
planned by some secretive, well financed group for their own
twisted purposes. Habeeb the rug merchant had nothing to do with
it.

These are the acts of lazy ignorant people, and that is just
ugly.

The answer is intelligence, in every sense of the
word.

1) In the military sense: Who exactly are they? Where are they?
What do they have, and what do they lack?

2) In the cloak-and-dagger sense: [fill in the blanks, Osama...]

3] In every popular and civilized sense: ...Why punish an
innocent friend? Maybe that Lebanese is a Christian, or an
honest wine merchant.

Finally, I must say I am honestly touched, by the outpouring of
support from countries which are seen as somewhat negative if
not hostile to the USA in ordinary times.

Now I better shut up and enjoy my wine. I have a new mixture
(due to non-virgin bottles) made up of Korbut Kanyon red, and
some New York Jewish Raspberry squeezings. I called that the
Osama Slider, but "Reformed Grappa" makes more sense somehow.



Very best wishes

- Larry Hatch

= = = = = = = =









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   Sep > Sep 16

             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke

From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:57:33 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 07:45:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 13:33:34 +0100

 >>From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >>Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:36:17 +0100

 >Dave, apologies if I have missed something, but I saw nothing in
 >the released documents for the MOD to cover-up? (apart from the
 >fact that there was a half-hearted and fumbled "investigation"
 >into the event, which produced no conclusive results). If that
 >is the case, then surely Nick was right, there was no cover-up?


Hi Joe,

No, you've not missed anything! You're quite right, there is no
evidence of a cover-up and Nick is quite right. But the question
was to illustrate the contradiction between his stance and that
adopted by Georgina and by UFO magazine. They both use his
statements as evidence to support a cover up; Pope writes a
forward to a book whose main argument is that there was a
cover-up; the whole bunch can't get their story consistent.

That was the point that Nick Redfern was teasing out in his
message to UpDates earlier this week.

What my whole argument amounts to is this: no one asks any
critical questions. It's time someone started!

Cheers

Dave Clarke









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              Re: ET Politics In Clinton White House - Part 4 -

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:10:25 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 07:48:24 -0400
Subject: Re: ET Politics In Clinton White House - Part 4 -


 >Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 00:32:49 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: ET Politics In Clinton White House - Part 4

 >>From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >>Date: 10 Sep 2001 18:49:23 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: ET Politics In Clinton White House - Part 4 - Complete

 >>Extraterrestrial Politics in the Clinton White House: White
 >>House Interest - Part 4

 >>"Recently I was in Washington meeting with a very famous
 >>astronaut. Everyone would know this person's name... This
 >>particular astronaut had during his career been in possession
 >>of a very specific piece of incontrovertible piece of
 >>evidence related to UFOs. It is something that if disclosed
 >>would clear and definitive.

<snip>

 >Grant, I agree with what Kevin Randle recently posted to you
 >that most of the Disclosure witnesses had no more evidence to
 >offer than stories. The above story is another example. Steven
 >Greer does not seem to understand that stories are nothing more
 >than tales unless they are investigated and determined if there
 >are leads that can generate evidence, if there is any proof to
 >the evidence, etc. Testimonials are not cases unless they can
 >prove something. Any professional investigator knows to never
 >report on a case until one is built. But then again, Greer was
 >talking with Art Bell, "the crackwhore of the UFO world". To me,
 >Bell wouldn't know what constitutes proof even if it bit him on
 >the butt.

Hello Josh!

The only quibble I have with the above is that I would put a
dash into "crack-whore". (Maybe that rubbed off from translating
French.)

As for Greer and Hoagland; after 3 or 4 drinks I can't tell them
apart. [burp]

I have to repeat to my self: "Greer is the one with the
flashlights etc., Hoagland has the face on Mars .. " One of
them, I almost forget which, indicated that the truth, or proof
(don't quote me) is irrelevant.

I expect that sort of mind-mush from a guru, a swami or new-age
drivel-monger of the 5th kind.

Art Bell? He couldn't care less if any of this makes sense. Bell
has some 400 AM stations the last I heard, all running his ads
between the BS artists. This is late nite radio... its not
supposed to make any sense.

<snip>

 >>Dr. Greer gave the most significant briefing to a member of the
 >>Clinton administration in December 1993. It was a three-hour
 >>briefing given to President Clinton's Director of Central
 >>Intelligence James Woolsey. Dr. Greer described his briefing of
 >>Woolsey as a presentation of "the scientific data, along with a
 >>well conceived assessment, and set of recommendations."


I can no longer contribute to this discussion.


Best wishes to all

- Larry Hatch

 >>Greer stated that he had been told that Woolsey "had an interest
 >>in the subject and felt that the subject was valid, that he had
 >>not been able to find out anything through channels, even though
 >>he was the head of the CIA, the NSA, the NRO, and other civilian
 >>intelligence agencies."












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                     Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:28:39 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 07:50:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Hatch


 >Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:40:00 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That

 >>Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:16:52 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That

 >>>From: James Oberg <JamesOberg@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:59:53 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Evening James, List

 >>>>I wonder how many Americans realise that man was put on the moon
 >>>>by the same man the built the V2?

 >>>Right, they did two favors for the world -- bankrupted Nazi
 >>>Germany on an idiotic inefficient war machine, that otherwise
 >>>the resources for it would have prolonged the war another six
 >>>months at least, and second, returned to their childhood ideals
 >>>to open the solar system to huamnity. Show some gratitude!!

 >>Pray tell, why should I show gratitude?

 >>Werner Von Braun was directly responsible for the deaths of
 >>thousands of British people. Why should I be grateful that he
 >>put an American on the moon with the same technology that killed
 >>so many of my countrymen?

 >Sean,

 >Don't you know that when Dr. Von Braun was asked how he could
 >launch rockets that were going to kill civilians he allegedly
 >said, "It was my department to send them up but it was a
 >different department responsible for where they landed".

 >Josh

Hello Josh and all:


I may be way off base here, but the impression I have of Werner
Von Braun is that of a rocketry enthusiast.

Von Braun (in this view) could not care less who financed his
toys, as long as he could design and fire off better (und
besser) rockets.

So, Germany lost the darned war. This man just wanted to play
with rockets, and would have done so under Soviet aegis, had
they gotten to him first.

For me; saying that von Braun took us to the Moon, is like
saying that Edison invented the computer.

Other souls had a strong parts and roles to play in such
matters.

Please forgive my crude language, but the Nazi-UFO "connection"
is crap. The AVRO car is crap. 98 other wing-ding explanations
for UFOs are all crap.

Why are we wasting time on such matters?

My opinion is that we should spend more time on what UFOs might
be, and far less on what they cannot be.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch


PS: If you keep up this German AVRO car stuff I will go on a
Hunger (but not thirst) strike.

I might even hold my breath until I turn purple.

That will teach you a lesson!










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               Re: Low Seat Uptake On Doomed Flights? - Jonach

From: Kurt Jonach <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:35:57 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 07:51:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Low Seat Uptake On Doomed Flights? - Jonach



 >From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Low Seat Uptake On Doomed Flights?
 >Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 01:10:54 +0100

 >I am sorry if this post may seem a little insensitive, I totally
 >abhor what has happened, and fully sympathise with the families
 >and friends of the victims. It occured to me that that there
 >were  very few passengers on the flights involved in the
 >atrocities in the US. Is it usual in the US for domestic flights
 >to be less than half full, or was this unusual?

Joe,

I don't think it was particularly unusual that any of those
regularly scheduled flights were not full on that day. Before
the economic downturn, business related travel kept some
domestic corridors so full you couldn't get a seat. So, you see,
it just depends on the situation.

What goes to the heart of your questions is the apparent fact
that US domestic airports and commuter travel patterns were
successfully studied well in advance of this despicable act.

In the case of fewer passengers, there would be less chance of
resistance (which apparently happened on the flight that went
down in Pennsylvania). The airports chosen had long standing FAA
records which indicated they were particularly susceptible to
terrorist intrusion. (Not to say the terrorists had the records,
just that they'd be able to figure this out over time.)

Our vulnerabilities were sought out and exploited. The victims
brutally murdered that day lived, as we all did, in a world they
deemed safer than it actually was.

That was how we lived. How we move on from here I can't say.

-kj









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              Re: Low Seat Uptake On Doomed Flights? - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:29:54 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 07:52:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Low Seat Uptake On Doomed Flights? - Fleming


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
 >Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 01:10:54 +0100
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Low Seat Uptake On Doomed Flights?

 >I am sorry if this post may seem a little insensitive, I totally
 >abhor what has happened, and fully sympathise with the families
 >and friends of the victims. It occured to me that that there
 >were  very few passengers on the flights involved in the
 >atrocities in the US. Is it usual in the US for domestic flights
 >to be less than half full, or was this unusual?

I had been wondering the same thing. Afternoon flights are
usually packed, but perhaps morning flights are more likely to
fly with light passenger loads. It did occur to me, though, that
the terrorists might have found out which flights were flying at
under capacity from conspirators working within the airport.
They might have chosen these flights deliberately because it
would be easier to subdue a smaller number of people with the
light weapons the terrorists reportedly carried. I wouldn't be
surprised if that was the case, given the precision with which
the crime was planned and executed. It's already generally
believed that transcontinental flights were chosen because of
the large amounts of explosive jet fuel they carried. The cold
rationality of evil in its purest form...









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             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:15:22 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 07:54:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Rimmer


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 13:33:34 +0100

 >>From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >>Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:36:17 +0100

 ><snip>

 >>2. Why does Nick Pope maintain there was no MOD cover-up over
 >>Rendlesham and yet is happy to support the claims of Bruni and
 >>Birdsall whose arguments directly contradict his own stance?

 ><snip>

 >Dave, apologies if I have missed something, but I saw nothing in
 >the released documents for the MOD to cover-up? (apart from the
 >fact that there was a half-hearted and fumbled "investigation"
 >into the event, which produced no conclusive results). If that
 >is the case, then surely Nick was right, there was no cover-up?


Surely the point Dave is making is that there _is_ nothing to
cover up, but Pope is happy to associate himself with people who
have created a cottage industry saying that there is, and allows
them to be his mouthpiece on the Web.

Some may find this anomolous!

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                              Some Morons.....

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:06:44 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 08:07:38 -0400
Subject: Some Morons.....


The following was sent out by the organizers of the Bay Area UFO
Expo. It didn't take long for some a-hole out there to start
spewing about "what _really_ happened" back east and giving
"exclusive presentations". Yes, we all know it was a conspiracy
you morons... shame on you and anyone else trying to take
advantage of the people back East:


    "Despite what some of you may have heard Richard Hoagland
    say on Art Bell's radio program, most of the other speakers
    have, in fact, NOT cancelled. Yes, Mr. Hoagland has
    cancelled. However, he is being replace by Master Scholar,
    Jordan Maxwell, who was prominent at our companion
    conference, CONSPIRACY CON, this past May. Mr. Maxwell
    will have much to say about the Bible and UFOs, Religion,
    Secret Societies and Conspiracies, as well as an exclusive
    presentation on what has "really" happened in New York and
    Washington, D.C. this past week."









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                     Re: And Another Thing... - Shevlin

From: Donnie Shevlin (Collosus) <dshevlin@charter.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:17:25 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 08:11:19 -0400
Subject: Re: And Another Thing... - Shevlin


 >Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:40:25 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: Michael Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: And Another Thing...

 >By the way, Listers,

 >Has anyone seen any video of V.P. Dick Cheney since Tuesday that
 >had to have been shot since Tuesday? Reports have him at Camp
 >David and he was the only big Washington mover that wasn't at
 >today's memorial service.

 >I haven't seen any video of him that couldn't have been shot
 >months earlier... and I'm wondering if perhaps news of the
 >attack was too much for his heart and he's in intensive care...
 >or even worse condition? Would someone please straighten out my
 >mis-informed butt.

 >Thanks,

 >Michael J. Woods... often known as Woodsy


Hi everyone, EBK and Mr. Woods,

Follow up on this.....

Dick Cheney was available today, Saturday Sept 15 in the war
discussion room at Camp David with Bush and other cabinet
members. I saw him as still sickly from his recent hospital
visits but alive and kicking.

Secondly, Errol, on the behalf of many Americans here and
myself, we appreciate that you are posting many stories here
that are not related to the subject of Ufology. This has always
been a serious discussion group focused on a much needed answer.
The time that you spend here clarifying the where abouts of some
of our NorthEastern counterparts does not go unnoticed. Thank
you very much.

Donnie Shevlin

"This is a call to the world body to remove a festering boil."
                                                     --DWS









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                          Re: Are You Okay? - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:22:44 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 08:13:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Are You Okay? - Myers


 >Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:05:18 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson@alienjigsaw.com>
 >Subject: Are You Okay?

 >>Are You Okay?

 >>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:41:58 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Are You Okay?

 >>From: Budd Hopkins
 >>To: <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >>Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 6:51 AM
 >>Subject: Re: Are You Okay?

 >>Dear Royce,

 >>Thank you so much for your expression of concern. Carol and I
 >>are both safe and well. We live about a mile and a half from the
 >>World Trade Center, and as the horror unfolded we walked over to
 >>the Hudson River where we had a view downstream. We saw the
 >>northern building enveloped in smoke and then, suddenly, flame
 >>gushed out from its central floors and it simply imploded,
 >>falling in on itself and collapsing. It was the most horrendous
 >>sight of my life. We knew that there were still uncounted
 >>thousands of workers in the building who couldn't get down
 >>because the fire had blocked all exits.

 >Thanks for this posting. It was great to hear that our UFO
 >friends and associates in New York are safe. I've been waiting
 >to hear something from Budd, as I telephoned on the 11th and
 >left a message. It's good to know that he and Carol are both
 >safe.


Has anyone heard from any other East coast ufologists that may
have been there? I hope everyone else is doing well, God bless.


Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM
"Don't Trip On Your Open Mind"









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             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:53:48 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 08:14:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 06:02:21 +0100

 >Regarding any suggestion that the released Ministry of Defence
 >file contained some correspondence from Jenny Randles which
 >'debunked other ufologists' and this should earnestly be
 >detailed as being of utmost meaningful, related, significance...

 >Some might conclude that an evidently vindictive, intentionally
 >destructive and ultimately pointless exercise was the last thing
 >we all needed...

Now isn't that charming coming from a debunker such as yourself.
One who spends so much time having a bash at researchers and
witnesses and so little time on the actual case.


Georgina Bruni


"You Can't Tell The People".The Definitive Account of the
Rendlesham Forest UFO Mystery by Georgina Bruni. Published
by Sidgwick & Jackson. Available at all good bookshops and
on-line at: www.amazon.co.uk
Countries outside UK: www.netstoreusa.com









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             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 21:12:48 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 08:16:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni


 >Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 03:50:59 +0100
 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001

 >>One person who didn't have any excuse was Jenny Randles. I am
 >>more concerned with her letters to the MOD debunking other
 >>ufologists. Maybe it's time we pasted some of those letters for
 >>all to see.


 >Hi Georgina,

 >I would be extremely interested in seeing these letters, where
 >can I see them, if indeed that is possible?


Hi Roy

Darren Danks is uploading them to his website this weekend. I'll
let you know when they go live.


Best wishes

Georgina










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                     Re: Aftermath Of Attack - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:36:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 08:23:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Aftermath Of Attack - Goldstein


 >Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:26:05 -0700
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
 >Subject: Re: Aftermath Of Attack

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Date: 13 Sep 2001 07:06:29 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Aftermath Of Attack

 >>In the aftermath of the attack on America many are reflecting on
 >>the meaning of life, the meaning of our way of life, and whether
 >>we are as culpable in the act as those who terrorize us. There
 >>are many opinions. And, except for those Palestinians in Lebanon
 >>who seem to have rejoiced over our tragedy, most are shocked and
 >>dismayed at the brazen act of these forces of terrorism. <g>

<snip>

 >Dear Bill,

 >Many many thanks for your email and thoughts, wise words and
 >incredible wisdom.

 >I totally agree. I imagine that would finally show the greatness
 >of our humanity. Can we overcome our hate, our wish for revenge?
 >It is going to be a true test of courage of our humanity?

 >My information gathering over the past how many years in the
 >various truth movements tells me that we are definately being
 >lied to, and my spiritual quest for a life of peace and harmony
 >and my experience of growing through hard times, has taught me
 >that it is when I am at my most angry and hateful, if I can stop
 >for just one minute and look in the mirror and try to see
 >exactly what it is that I am afraid of.

 >I imagine many are afraid of physical and financial insecurity,
 >which in the current paradigm of living is how we establish our
 >'success' and our 'security' - hence the destruction we have
 >reaped on our planet and why we now need new technologies (which
 >we would not have needed if we had simply lived at one with the
 >planet).

 >Anyway fear of external insecurities is based on thinking that
 >our security comes from some external reality or authority, or
 >power.

 >They don't... power comes from loving ourselves deep within and
 >from treating every single other human being as we would be
 >treated. Personal Power comes from love, and when you totally
 >love, you are not afraid of anything, because you know in the
 >fibers of your being, that your body is at one with this planet
 >and even if you die, you are a part of the web of life, you are
 >not afraid... ;-)

 >Fear comes from hate, from seperation to the web of life, from
 >seperation and obsession with thinking and our ideologies and
 >who we think we are... when we identify with who we think we are
 >(successful, american, etc) then so many things can be
 >considered an 'attack' to who we are, or how we perceive
 >ourselves, and when our minds thing they are bieng attacked,
 >well they fight back!!

 >Years ago, they fought back by helping us to survive.. these
 >days our over-identification with our minds as to who we are,
 >are resulting in our possible annihilation, and with current
 >events it seems like we have very little time to wake Up! ;-)

 >We must listen to our hearts.... our hearts of love, our hearts
 >of trying as hard as it may be....

 >Security and knowing that we are one with the world, and with
 >another (such as is exemplified incredibly in the many stories
 >you hear about how strangers helped, hugged, and loved one
 >another - they truly forgot who they were and suddenly cared
 >more for others than they did for themselves) comes from facing
 >our fears together.

 >This is probably the biggest opportunity ever being offered to
 >America to truly show her ability to forgive, to grow, to learn
 >and to embrace all people, and to take responsibility for her
 >actions she has made (as we all do, sometimes when we want this
 >or that) in the past that have hurt others around the world.

 >The world would embrace such courage, and we would all be crying
 >in the streets with love that we could overcome such a tragedy
 >and finally learn that we are all on this planet together....

 >We can either love each other, forgive, sometimes get mad,
 >scream a little, but we can get over our little angers, and can
 >learn to grow and live as a humane species, welcoming others
 >from the universe....

 >This is a critical time for the UFO community, it is critical
 >how the UFO community responds to this crisis and how it leads
 >by either posturing and demanding war and revenge, or calling
 >for reason, love and forgiveness...

 >Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help...

 >Much luv,

 >Lara


Hello Bill and Lara,

Bill,

I've also been meaning to thank you for your words. I also want
to say that I might have wrongly misjudged you those years I was
in LA MUFON. In the last few years you seem to be a lot more
focused in valid investigation and not speculation. I keep in
touch with Don Waldrop, an old friend. He has repeatedly asked
me to be on the board of LA MUFON but I've been over here in
Berlin doing a music project for the last two years and I don't
know if or when I may move back to LA. I'm sure the Chapter is
well-off having you in your position and Don at the helm.

Lara,

I've got a few suggestions that may help you.

1) If modern technology bothers you join the Luddites
International. The only problem is that they don't use
computers, pens, pencils, cars or airplanes.

2) When I first read of you on this List I felt you were
immature, politically naive and not wise to the ways of the
world. You certainly are lacking knowledge in the UFO field. You
should educate yourself if you care about the UFO enigma. The
way you jumped right into an absurd act after once seeing Steven
Greer's circus presentation shows me you have no depth. Your
statements above confirm that impression, not about only UFOs
but critical thinking.

Face it, we didn't start this war and we are correct in
destroying these evil forces, as we were with the Nazis. That
war wasn't won with hugs and kisses. Sure we are humane and the
American government and its people will act in a responsible
manner. We have an obligation to end people being terrorized. If
you want to really help peace on this planet join the Womens
Army Corps. Or are you too much of a coward to fight for what is
right - defending human principles on this planet?

3) Grow up and check any statements before you believe them. A
lot of these "truthseekers" run on conspiracy gossip and no real
evidence to prove their points. Grow up and learn how to really
think for yourself. We are peace loving people but this is no
time for peaceniks. Please stand aside and keep your opinions to
yourself. We have a job to do on our planet and you don't want
to het hurt from tripping over your own words.

4) If you don't like the way things are heading on this planet
and have your absurd Luddite views you would make a lot more
impact by going on a real hunger strike with only water to drink
and carry it to its conclusion. You may end up on a planet you
like better that has no humans.

5) You have no business insulting people you don't personally
know in the UFO field. That shows me rampant immaturity and a
total lack of character.

6) Stay out of the UFO world and _especially_ UFO UpDates unless
you grow up and have some real knowledge to contribute. You are
wearing out my delete button.

7) Which are you going to do, join the WAC or go on a real
hunger strike? If you don't like those options and foolishly got
yourself evicted 3 times then sell your car (no use to Luddites)
and crawl back into your cave and sit around a wood fire.
Remember that Luddites can't use matches. If you don't know the
meaning of Luddites then you have to find out for yourself as
Luddites don't use anything made by machines.

8) I'll say goodbye as you leave this List.


Josh Goldstein

A highly decorated combat veteran who receives 100% disability
from the Veterans Administration. I'm ready to fight again for
what is right.

Are you?











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                       Re: Aftermath Of Attack - Evans

From: Roger Evans <shooter@afterimagephoto.tv>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 15:59:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 08:30:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Aftermath Of Attack - Evans


 >From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:26:05 -0700
 >Subject: Re: Aftermath Of Attack


Lara wrote:

 >This is probably the biggest opportunity ever being offered to
 >America to truly show her ability to forgive, to grow, to learn
 >and to embrace all people, and to take responsibility for her
 >actions she has made (as we all do, sometimes when we want this
 >or that) in the past that have hurt others around the world.

 >We can either love each other, forgive, sometimes get mad,
 >scream a little, but we can get over our little angers, and can
 >learn to grow and live as a humane species, welcoming others
 >from the universe....

 >This is a critical time for the UFO community, it is critical
 >how the UFO community responds to this crisis and how it leads
 >by either posturing and demanding war and revenge, or calling
 >for reason, love and forgiveness...


Lara,

I don't know if you are simply naively unrealistic or just
pulling everyone's leg. So let's put all this sage wisdom to the
test with a little question:

If I came over to your home and start beating the living hell
out of someone you loved, that you held dear to your heart, are
you not going to lift a finger to stop me? Are you just going to
stand there forgiving me and loving me and loving me some more
until I am so loved that I feel guilty and stop on my own? And
if I make it clear that I regard you as the devil and that my
vicious attack is justified in my mind and that you're next
after I finish with your loved one, are you still going to love
me and forgive until the bitter end? If so, then why? And if
not, then at what point do you draw a line in the blood stained
sand and say, "Enough, already!" and fight back?

I pride myself on not being a racist or a bigot and have always
made a distinction between regular people and bad people. As
such, I don't hate all people, just bad people. However, it is
getting harder and harder for me to make that distinction
clearly as friends are robbed and beaten by "nice looking"
strangers that approached them with a disarming smile and an
open hand asking for a cigarette. And the idea of an "innocent"
society grows more elusive every time I see Muslim children
dancing in the streets in celebration of the deaths of thousands
of Americans. I have no doubt that America has done some very
bad things to a lot of really decent people over the years, but
we _never_ dance in the street at the thought of someone dying,
even when murderers are executed that were guilty of the most
hideous crimes imaginable. These children are being taught that
vengeance and hate and ignorance and violence are a way of life
and _not_ an act of last resort against an enemy that attacks
without warning or provocation. They are sent to military school
as casually as we send our kids to Little League.

Look, I don't know beans about snakes, though I am sure that
some in my backyard are harmless. But, I have a three year-old
that likes to play outside despite the ever present possibility
of snakage. So, I keep a shovel handy and, unfortunately, the
ones that bite make it pretty hard on the ones that don't. Now,
I feel really sorry for the decent Muslims in this world that
are taking the heat for the insane among them. But the
distinction they seek (and deserve) is something that, as unfair
as it may be, they will _have_ to take a more proactive part in.
Unlike a snake, these people can talk and reason and think, if
they choose to. If they want to avoid the shovel, then point out
the ones among them that bite and hand them over. Either that or
stay out of my yard.

Beyond that, I think the concept of loving anyone that doesn't
want to kill me on sight is a _great_ idea. You tell me which
ones they are, and I'll make a note of it, copy it and pass it
on to the State Department. If you can't do that, then your sage
wisdom is neither sage nor is it wisdom and wouldn't survive
five seconds in the Muslim world where woman can't even _begin_
to express themselves like you have. If you think it would, then
I suggest you translate your missive into their native language
and spam the hell of of these guys like you've been spamming
people on this List with your other nonsense.


Roger Evans









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                                Re: - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:50:04 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 08:33:18 -0400
Subject: Re:                           - Aldrich


 >From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re:
 >Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:33:32 +0800

 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:14:49 -0400
 >>Subject:

 >>WBZ radio read the names of the passengers and crew of the two
 >>airliners which originated at Logan Airport, Boston, and which
 >>were hijacked for the terrorist attack. Due to my duties, I did
 >>not hear them all, but an Australian Quantas official was among
 >>the dead.

 >>Also, earlier a New York Stock Exchange official said that many
 >>other nationals work at the World Trade Center. People from the
 >>UK, Canada, Japan, German, France worked at WTC. They had
 >>nothing to do with US policy.

 >>How unfortunate!

 >>God Bless all the victims and their families.
 >>Jan Aldrich

 >Jan,

 >It's unfortunate any nationality has to suffer even an eensy bit
 >of this heartache, but yes, Australia has 3 confirmed dead (2
 >were on two of the planes) and 84 are unaccounted for who were
 >to be in or around the buildings that day. I also have a distant
 >Dutch relative who has yet to be reached who was doing some
 >consulting work in the WTC. It has really touched the lives of
 >every square inch of God's green earth.

 >Another sad outcome is the attitude several of my fellow Aussie
 >country men who have spat on Arabs in the street, defiled
 >several Mosques and even several arab children have had bottles
 >thrown at them. This is probably not isolated to our country, I
 >have heard arab companies in the US are recieving death threats
 >etc. We really need to pray for understanding and compassion so
 >other "innocent" poeple don't get hurt.

 >"And Grace will lead us home"

 >Sharon
 >West Aust.

Sharon and Diana,

My last off-topic message. I understand that 90 Australians who
worked in the WTC are unacconted for. Hopefully, they are safe
and just haven't checked in yet. WBZ radio, a great news
station, indicated that over 300 Pakistanis also worked at the
WTC. So probably many, many nationalities are effected in this
terrorist act.

Diana, of course, you are correct about Africans also being
effected. Innocent people who just happened to be near the
American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were killed and hurt.

Islam is surrender to God, one of whose names is the
Compassionate One. Surely, these terrorists violate the core
values of that great religion. Other Muslims should not be
visited with violence because of the evil acts of a few
fanatics.


God Bless.

Jan Aldrich









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                    Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:22:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 08:37:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Aldrich


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 00:11:22 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That
 >>Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 03:01:42 -0400

 >>>Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:19:54 +0100
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >>>Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Jones

 >>>>From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 08:14:17 EDT
 >>>>Subject: Nazi UFOs And All That
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >Dear Jan,

 >I wish to notify this List of a new product from the Gripple
 >Werken, our factory in Deutchland. We call the new product,
 >which consists of a new and interesting use for the dried and
 >compressed Grappa of our pressings (very absorbent), a product
 >for our ageing Baby Bloomer Pop... You lations. We call it
 >(thank you Saturday Night Live) "Ooops, I crapped my pants!"

 >Of course, the same silly fossify applies to the UFO conundrum.
 >And it happens every time I get abducted... or perceive I've
 >been abducted. And it almost _always_ happens when they stick it
 >to me. Which is how I got the idea for OICMP .... Oooops I
 >crapped my pants.

 >Thank you,

 >Jim

Jim,

I spent much time in Italy as a tourist, and actually lived
there for over a year and a half, but never could get into
drinking that Gripple Grappa stuff. One glass of house wine was
good enough for me, I'm a cheap drunk.

I remember Von Braun actually said something to the effect that
while building rockets in Germany, he was responsible for the
plans, not where they came down. That was good for a great
laugh.

Wendy Connors and Michael Hall found huge files on Paperclip at
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. I have about a dozen microfilms
from Maxwell AFB which also contain Paperclip files along with
other WWII files. So I now know more than I ever wanted to know
about the subject.

Of course, the Brits had their own version of Paperclip, but
they have more colorful conspiracy theories than Americans.
Blowing up Parliament for instance. I still can't figure out why
this event is celebrated with fireworks. Can you imagine anyone
doing that to the US Congress and ending all that confusion and
bickering?


Jan









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                    UFO Conference - New Jersey - Addenda

From: Tom Benson <sparkle@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 19:9:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 08:50:09 -0400
Subject: UFO Conference - New Jersey - Addenda



Dear List:

The 38th Annual National UFO Conference (NUFOC) scheduled to be
held in Austin, Texas this weekend was cancelled and will held
there next year as the 39th. 35 speakers were scheduled for this
conference.

To maintain continuity for this event, the 38th Conference will
be merged with our conference. For more information I refer you
to our website at:

www.geocities.com/UFOcongress


Tom Benson

sparkle@earthlink.net








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   Sep > Sep 16

                  'CAUS Alert: Looking Behind The Curtain'

From: Royce J. Myers III <rjm3@sprintmail.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 18:03:47 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 08:54:55 -0400
Subject: 'CAUS Alert: Looking Behind The Curtain'


No one can keep their fingers out of this can they? Look out
for yet another round of FOIA lawsuits and fund raisers...

Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM



----- Original Message -----

From: <caus@xxxxx>
To: <caus-list@xxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 5:51 PM
Subject: CAUS ALERT: Looking Behind the Curtain


Dear Members:

Consistent with my latest commentary "Attack on America: Looking
Behind the Curtain" (http://www.xxxx.xxxx/xxxxx.xxx I am
interested in forming a network of people who, if not believing
as I do about our cosmic test for self-determination, are at
least willing to keep an open mind.

The network's purpose will be to "look behind the curtain" and
report to me anything unusual whether on the Internet, TV, news
media, or events in their own lives. Each of the people in the
network will initially determine what is "unusual." We need to
be alert for, and aware of, anything that doesn't "feel" right
to any of our senses. Of CAUS we must continue to watch the
skies.

If you are interested in becoming part of this network please
e-mail or call me. Something is occurring in our reality and it
is not simply another planetary war, I feel that it is
necessary, at least for me, to monitor the situation. But I need
help.


Peter A. Gersten
Director, CAUS
xxx-xxx-xxxx










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                    Re: And Another Thing... - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 21:06:13 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 08:56:57 -0400
Subject: Re: And Another Thing... - Mortellaro


 >Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:40:25 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: Michael Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: And Another Thing...


 >By the way, Listers,

 >Has anyone seen any video of V.P. Dick Cheney since Tuesday that
 >had to have been shot since Tuesday? Reports have him at Camp
 >David and he was the only big Washington mover that wasn't at
 >today's memorial service.

 >I haven't seen any video of him that couldn't have been shot
 >months earlier... and I'm wondering if perhaps news of the
 >attack was too much for his heart and he's in intensive care...
 >or even worse condition? Would someone please straighten out my
 >mis-informed butt.

 >Thanks,

 >Michael J. Woods... often known as Woodsy

 >The truth can STAY out there
 >Send in a good FANTASY.

Sir, the Vice President attended a security council meeting,
prior to which each member was interviewed. He looked just fine.

And with all respect, now's not the time for such rumors as
this. At this delicate time, proffering this kind of dingleberry
scheiss is unacceptable. At least to me. Unless of course, you
are echoing something you may have heard or read elsewhere. You
know as well as the rest of us that the Internet has a habit of
getting around.

Word to the (hopefully) wise.

Jim Mortellaro








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                 Re: The Devil Made Them Do It - Chris Kelly

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 10:35:59 +1000
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:06:04 -0400
Subject: Re: The Devil Made Them Do It - Chris Kelly


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 23:42:50 EDT
 >Subject: The Devil Made Them Do It
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com


 >Ladies & Gents:

 >Check this one out,

http://dailynews.philly.com/content/daily%5Fnews/2001/09/13/local/DEVI13C.htm


Granted, that is very freaky, even a little scary considering
all the hype associated with the prophecies of Nostradamus
everyone is talking about.

Tophar.









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              Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Hale

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 02:38:21 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:07:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Hale


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 06:02:21 +0100

 >Regarding any suggestion that the released Ministry of Defence
 >file contained some correspondence from Jenny Randles which
 >'debunked other ufologists' and this should earnestly be
 >detailed as being of utmost meaningful, related, significance...

 >Some might conclude that an evidently vindictive, intentionally
 >destructive and ultimately pointless exercise was the last thing
 >we all needed...

Hi,

I am sorry to note that your answer has been consumed by your
anger of, what may be considered a very simple request. I do not
wish to put forward the idea that Jenny would debunk other UFO
researchers, but as the notion has been put into the arena, I
would like to have the chance to read such communications Jenny
had with the MoD, on a purely self interest basis.

 >Tell you what, anyone who wants to peruse the full text of
 >Jenny's commendable correspondence with the MoD, in which she
 >does suggest, almost twenty years ago, that BUFORA was the most
 >appropriate recipient of 'UFO' documents Jenny asked to be
 >released - rather than [debunk] any other UK 'UFO' organisation
 >- just let me know.

I am also under the growing impression that you are a PR agent
for Jenny, perhaps in some time to come, Jenny would like to
openly comment on these communications, before other people push
her to far into the firing line of other questions, which may
arise from this MoD exchange?


Roy..









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                  Re: Low Seat Uptake On Doomed Flights? -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 00:18:14 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:08:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Low Seat Uptake On Doomed Flights? -



 >From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Low Seat Uptake On Doomed Flights?
 >Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 01:10:54 +0100


 >I am sorry if this post may seem a little insensitive, I totally
 >abhor what has happened, and fully sympathise with the families
 >and friends of the victims. It occured to me that that there
 >were  very few passengers on the flights involved in the
 >atrocities in the US. Is it usual in the US for domestic flights
 >to be less than half full, or was this unusual?

Dear Joseph, List, Errol;

Although not a recent heavy air traveler, up until a few years
ago, I traveled more than a hundred thousand miles a year on
business. It is not unusual for airliners to be half full (or
half empty) and still fly. The schedules must be honored. The
airlines have the right to cancel a flight because it is not
nearly half full, but this is not SOP. I've been on so many
where the aircraft was similarly accoutered.


Jim Mortellaro

Former Ganza Macher and presently a retired nudnick and Grippler








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             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:23:25 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:24:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 02:50:46 +0100

 >In order to hopefully determine this, and some significantly
 >related questions, I've asked Secretariat(Air Staff)2a1a if they
 >can confirm when their 'Rendlesham' file was 'rediscovered'.

It might help to write to the correct department. The one above
no longer exists. To save you the trouble: the file was
re-opened on 1 November 2000, when senior defence ministers
requested copies of my book due to the fact that I was having my
book launch in MOD Main Building, Whitehall. The date is clearly
stated on the front cover of the file.

Georgina Bruni

"You Can't Tell The People".The Definitive Account of the
Rendlesham Forest UFO Mystery by Georgina Bruni. Published
by Sidgwick & Jackson Available in all good bookshops and on-line
at: www.amazon.co.uk

Countries outside UK: www.netstoreusa.com








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             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:23:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:26:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni


 >From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:08:55 +0100

 >>You are being very silly now. Unless you have worked at the MOD
 >>you cannot claim to know how it works. Your bragging just makes
 >>you look like a silly little boy who thinks he knows it all.


 >Clearly, I've touched a raw nerve to elicit such such childish
 >and pathetic comments from someone who expects her arguments to
 >be taken seriously.

 >Dave Clarke

On the contrary Dave. It is obvious who has hit a raw nerve.
Your comments concerning Nick Pope (who was not with the MOD
during the reported incident) is totally off subject. The real
story here is the fact that the MOD have released many of their
documents on the Rendlesham case.


Best wishes

Georgina Bruni


"You Can't Tell The People".The Definitive Account of the
Rendlesham Forest UFO Mystery by Georgina Bruni. Published by
Sidgwick & Jackson Available in all good bookshops and on-line
at: www.amazon.co.uk

Countries outside UK: www.netstoreusa.com









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             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:23:31 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:27:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni


 >From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:36:17 +0100

 >Having painted herself into a corner in her blind support for a
 >lost cause, Bruni's arrogance is such that she will go to any
 >lengths to avoid losing face. The more she tries to belittle the
 >hard work and experience of others, the more it reflects badly
 >upon her own credibility.

Losing face on what, might I ask? I have always credited other
researchers in both my book and my articles. Whereas you and
your debunking friends do not give credit to anybody other than
yourselves.

 >3. How can Georgina Bruni claim to be reporting objectively on
 >the Rendlesham case whilst acting as a unquestioning mouthpiece
 >for disinformation as is evident from (2) and (3) above.

I am not a mouthpiece for Nick Pope. Nick is not on the Internet
and you people continue to bring my name into these questions. I
have informed you all that Nick's article in the October issue
of UFO Magazine, will cover these questions. It is not down to
me to discuss it further at this time.

 >It's ironic that we are being asked to accept there was a
 >cover-up when its promoters are involved in a cover-up of their
 >own!

Now, that's exactly what I mean by you being so silly

 >It's not so much a case of "you can't tell the people" but more
 >of how long can they spin this one out before they are badly
 >caught out.

Caught out by what? Anybody who has read the Rendlesham file
(copies of which will be available at the Leeds conference) will
be able to decide for themselves, the role the MOD played. I am
not hiding anything.

Best wishes

Georgina Bruni

"You Can't Tell The People".The Definitive Account of the
Rendlesham Forest UFO Mystery by Georgina Bruni. Published
by Sidgwick & Jackson Available in all good bookshops and on-line
at: www.amazon.co.uk

Countries outside UK: www.netstoreusa.com









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             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:23:34 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:28:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Bruni


 >From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:12:43 +0100

 >You have hit the nail on the proverbial head. Georgina Bruni has
 >been waging a particularly unpleasant and vindictive vendetta
 >against Jenny for some time, and simply cannot resist introducing
 >personal attacks upon her into posts she has exchanged on this
 >list that had no connection with the subject.

No, I have not. Most of the time I have been defending myself.
Before publication of my book, Jenny accused me (publicly) of
writing gossip for the book. She refused to answer any of my
questions concerning her part in any investigation, and when my
book was published, wrote not only bad and unfair reviews but
continued to try to discredit me. So I think it's fair to say
that Jenny has been the instigator here. You also suggest this
has nothing to do with the subject. But you continue to quote
Nick Pope, who was not even around during the reported incident.
So what's your point.

 >As you quite rightly say, if it were not for Jenny, Brenda, Dot
 >and others who kept plugging away at the Rendlesham case back in
 >the 1981 there would have been no "case file" for Georgina to
 >base her research upon in the first place. That's some gratitude
 >for you, and reveals just how vindictive and immature the source
 >of these attacks actually is.

I have credited everybody in my book, very fairly indeed. But as
I have mentioned so many times, my book was not written to
grease the egos of researchers, but for the witnesses
themselves. The truth of the matter is that Jenny wrote a great
deal about the case, but did not investigate it herself. This is
probably why she was reluctant to answer my questions concerning
her research, which, after months of criticism from her, she
finally answered some questions. I'm sure Jenny would agree with
me that Brenda and Dot were the main investigators until late
1983. Had Jenny picked up the case seriously in early 1981, when
Dot Street contacted her, then Jenny could take credit. But
unfortunately that was not the case. However, her articles did
help to get the story out to other researchers, so for that we
can credit her.

 >What I find particularly disturbing is the deafening silence of
 >those who claim to be friends and supporters of Jenny who are
 >prepared to allow Georgina Bruni indulge in the unjust character
 >assassination against someone who has done her no harm.

This is another of your silly remarks. One cannot argue with the
truth. And are you saying that it's OK to criticise Lord Hill-Norton,
Nick Pope, the witnesses and myself, but that your group should not
have to answer to anything.

Dave, unless you have done your research and have some proper
questions to ask , I don't have time for all this bickering
nonsense.

I am too grown up to play in your playground.

One last comment. Be careful you don't open a Pandora's Box,
you'd be surprised what's in there.


Georgina Bruni


"You Can't Tell The People".The Definitive Account of the
Rendlesham Forest UFO Mystery by Georgina Bruni. Published
by Sidgwick & Jackson Available in all good bookshops and on-line
at: www.amazon.co.uk

Countries outside UK: www.netstoreusa.com








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   Sep > Sep 17

                        Re: And Another Thing - Woods

From: Michael Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:20:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:35:23 -0400
Subject: Re: And Another Thing - Woods


Dear Listers....

I think VP Dick Cheney appearing live on NBC's Meet the Press
constitutes a sighting of the guy since Tuesday. Thanks
everybody for the responses....and to my newsroom post.

Mike Woods

The truth can STAY out there
Send in a good FANTASY.









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                             On A Personal Note

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:53:33 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:39:52 -0400
Subject: On A Personal Note


Hello All,

I just want to thank Errol Bruce-Knapp, Scott Robbins, and Dave
(Furry) Furlotte for their courage and guts in putting out a
'normal' UFO program on 'Strange Days... Indeed' on Saturday
night.

I can only speak for myself, but I really appreciated the all too
brief respite from the heaviness of what we have all had to deal
with this past week. At a time like this things that are 'normal
routine' take on renewed importance in our lives by providing us
the comfort and security of the familiar to cling to. There is
something healthy about the momentary diversion and yes,
entertainment.

I could hear the pain and the strain in Errol, Scott, and Dave's
voices last Saturday night. I _know_ how hard it was for them to
stay focused and to put their best effort out under the extreme
and emotional circumstances. Speaking as one New Yorker I am
deeply grateful for their valiant effort to help us all get back
to our everyday routines. SDI (for me) _is_ a very real and
important part of my 'Normal Routine'. Although I had to choke
back tears it simply felt good to be doing something that always
brings me great personal satisfaction and great pleasure.
(Spending time with EBK, Scott, and the listeners and other
regular contributors to SDI.)

God bless you guys. You did good. It took courage to overcome
your own pain and _do_the_show_ and I have nothing but respect
for your efforts and for all of you.

My thanks for the momentary "break" in the grief.

Most sincerely,

John Velez, Proud contributor to SDI
                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









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             Re: Low Seat Uptake On Doomed Flights? - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:30:52 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:45:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Low Seat Uptake On Doomed Flights? - McGonagle


My thanks to everyone who took the time to respond.


Regards,

Joe







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                       Re: Aftermath Of Attack - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 07:54:52 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:51:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Aftermath Of Attack - Myers


 >Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:26:05 -0700
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
 >Subject: Re: Aftermath Of Attack

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Date: 13 Sep 2001 07:06:29 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Aftermath Of Attack

 >>In the aftermath of the attack on America many are reflecting on
 >>the meaning of life, the meaning of our way of life, and whether
 >>we are as culpable in the act as those who terrorize us. There
 >>are many opinions. And, except for those Palestinians in Lebanon
 >>who seem to have rejoiced over our tragedy, most are shocked and
 >>dismayed at the brazen act of these forces of terrorism. <g>

 > <snip>
 >
 >Dear Bill,

 >Many many thanks for your email and thoughts, wise words and
 >incredible wisdom.

 >I totally agree. I imagine that would finally show the greatness
 >of our humanity. Can we overcome our hate, our wish for revenge?
 >It is going to be a true test of courage of our humanity?

 >My information gathering over the past how many years in the
 >various truth movements tells me that we are definately being
 >lied to, and my spiritual quest for a life of peace and harmony
 >and my experience of growing through hard times, has taught me
 >that it is when I am at my most angry and hateful, if I can stop
 >for just one minute and look in the mirror and try to see
 >exactly what it is that I am afraid of.

 >I imagine many are afraid of physical and financial insecurity,
 >which in the current paradigm of living is how we establish our
 >'success' and our 'security' - hence the destruction we have
 >reaped on our planet and why we now need new technologies (which
 >we would not have needed if we had simply lived at one with the
 >planet).

 >Anyway fear of external insecurities is based on thinking that
 >our security comes from some external reality or authority, or
 >power.

 >They don't... power comes from loving ourselves deep within and
 >from treating every single other human being as we would be
 >treated. Personal Power comes from love, and when you totally
 >love, you are not afraid of anything, because you know in the
 >fibers of your being, that your body is at one with this planet
 >and even if you die, you are a part of the web of life, you are
 >not afraid... ;-)

 >Fear comes from hate, from seperation to the web of life, from
 >seperation and obsession with thinking and our ideologies and
 >who we think we are... when we identify with who we think we are
 >(successful, american, etc) then so many things can be
 >considered an 'attack' to who we are, or how we perceive
 >ourselves, and when our minds thing they are bieng attacked,
 >well they fight back!!

 >Years ago, they fought back by helping us to survive.. these
 >days our over-identification with our minds as to who we are,
 >are resulting in our possible annihilation, and with current
 >events it seems like we have very little time to wake Up! ;-)

 >We must listen to our hearts.... our hearts of love, our hearts
 >of trying as hard as it may be....

 >Security and knowing that we are one with the world, and with
 >another (such as is exemplified incredibly in the many stories
 >you hear about how strangers helped, hugged, and loved one
 >another - they truly forgot who they were and suddenly cared
 >more for others than they did for themselves) comes from facing
 >our fears together.

 >This is probably the biggest opportunity ever being offered to
 >America to truly show her ability to forgive, to grow, to learn
 >and to embrace all people, and to take responsibility for her
 >actions she has made (as we all do, sometimes when we want this
 >or that) in the past that have hurt others around the world.

 >The world would embrace such courage, and we would all be crying
 >in the streets with love that we could overcome such a tragedy
 >and finally learn that we are all on this planet together....

 >We can either love each other, forgive, sometimes get mad,
 >scream a little, but we can get over our little angers, and can
 >learn to grow and live as a humane species, welcoming others
 >from the universe....

 >This is a critical time for the UFO community, it is critical
 >how the UFO community responds to this crisis and how it leads
 >by either posturing and demanding war and revenge, or calling
 >for reason, love and forgiveness...

 >Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help...


Yeah, well trying sending Osama Bin Laden a postcard and see
what kind of package he sends you. Stop and think about the
thousands of people that are now dead. Do you understand that? I
don't think you do. I'm tired of people saying "wake up". I'm
tired of this BS talk about paradigms and what "really
happened."

I saw what was really happening last Tuesday morning. I saw
planes filled with passengers plow into buildings and explode. I
saw people jumping to their deaths rather than burn to death
from the fire engulfing the WTC. I saw firefighters and cops
alike rushing into buildings to save people, buildings that
collapsed on top of them and took many of their lives along with
the thousnads of others in the area. I sat in my living room and
cried with my wife as we sat and watched these people get
MURDERED. The entire world watched it happen - where were you?
Were you out trying to hitch a ride with the aliens with one of
Doc Greer's all powerful alien signaling flashlights?

 >We can either love each other, forgive, sometimes get mad,
 >scream a little, but we can get over our little angers, and can
 >learn to grow and live as a humane species, welcoming others
 >from the universe....

You tell that to the families of the victims and any other
terrorist group on their next run as they continue to kill
people, even their own. I guess we should just forgive everyone
and just not worry about it, eh? So, you think we should just
forget about the THOUSANDS of people that are DEAD? This act
goes far, far beyond "little angers". Your e-mail is an absolute
insult to this country, the people that live in it and the
people that died in it last Tuesday. I certainly hope that
people don't think you're representing my voice or the voices of
many others in the UFO community - because you aren't.

Of course, you are after all on a much higher spiritual plane
than the rest of us. Please do go to whatever spiritual plane
you see fit - so long as it isn't anywhere here in the United
States of America.


Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM
"Don't Trip On Your Open Mind"









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                Re: CAUS Alert: Looking Behind the Curtain -

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:31:18 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:56:57 -0400
Subject: Re: CAUS Alert: Looking Behind the Curtain -


 >From: Royce J. Myers III <rjm3@sprintmail.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.net>
 >Subject: 'CAUS Alert: Looking Behind the Curtain'
 >Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 18:03:47 -0700

 >No one can keep their fingers out of this can they? Look out
 >for yet another round of FOIA lawsuits and fund raisers...


 >Royce J. Myers III
 >UFOWATCHDOG.COM

 >----- Original Message -----

 >From: <caus@xxxxx>
 >To: <caus-list@xxxxx>
 >Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 5:51 PM
 >Subject: CAUS ALERT: Looking Behind the Curtain

 >Dear Members:

 >Consistent with my latest commentary "Attack on America: Looking
 >Behind the Curtain" (http://www.xxxx.xxxx/xxxxx.xxx I am
 >interested in forming a network of people who, if not believing
 >as I do about our cosmic test for self-determination, are at
 >least willing to keep an open mind.

<snip>

Gersten must be on the prowl for a new way to gain funds. His
purple robe must be wearing out and he needs a new outfit to
prance and prattle in while tending to his "flock" of choo-choo
birds while he calls down the intergalactic militia to spare
humanity from his throne in Sedona.

Same song, second verse. Could be better, but it gets only
worse. Next dog and pony show, please.


Wendy Connors











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                     Re: Aftermath Of Attack - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 17 Sep 2001 08:36:56 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:02:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Aftermath Of Attack - Hamilton


 >Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:36:27 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Aftermath Of Attack

 >>Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:26:05 -0700
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Aftermath Of Attack

 >>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>Date: 13 Sep 2001 07:06:29 -0700
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Aftermath Of Attack

 >>>In the aftermath of the attack on America many are reflecting on
 >>>the meaning of life, the meaning of our way of life, and whether
 >>>we are as culpable in the act as those who terrorize us. There
 >>>are many opinions. And, except for those Palestinians in Lebanon
 >>>who seem to have rejoiced over our tragedy, most are shocked and
 >>>dismayed at the brazen act of these forces of terrorism. <g>

 ><snip>

 >>Dear Bill,

 >>Many many thanks for your email and thoughts, wise words and
 >>incredible wisdom.

<snip>

 >Bill,

 >I've also been meaning to thank you for your words. I also want
 >to say that I might have wrongly misjudged you those years I was
 >in LA MUFON. In the last few years you seem to be a lot more
 >focused in valid investigation and not speculation. I keep in
 >touch with Don Waldrop, an old friend. He has repeatedly asked
 >me to be on the board of LA MUFON but I've been over here in
 >Berlin doing a music project for the last two years and I don't
 >know if or when I may move back to LA. I'm sure the Chapter is
 >well-off having you in your position and Don at the helm.

Thanks Josh.

I am focused on valid investigation, but I have not altogether
given up speculation, however my speculation these days is based
on more analysis, and some of those things I was willing to
accept in the past are now in doubt.

While essentially a pacificst at heart, I would not shirk the
opportunity to don the cloak of a warrior again. Wrongs must be
righted and I am all for confronting the true perpetrators of
terrorism.

Bill










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             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke

From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:21:59 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:07:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke


 >Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 02:38:21 +0100
 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001

 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >>Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 06:02:21 +0100

Roy Hale wrote:

 >I am also under the growing impression that you are a PR agent
 >for Jenny, perhaps in some time to come, Jenny would like to
 >openly comment on these communications, before other people push
 >her to far into the firing line of other questions, which may
 >arise from this MoD exchange?


At the risk of being labelled a "PR agent for Jenny" I'm happy
to help you out. Jenny has circulated the following statement
that she has given me permission to repost on UpDates for the
benefit of newcomers to this subject:

[Statement begins]

I read the debates on UpDates and realise that most people on
there are decent and rational folk. However, after the one-sided
'discussion' regarding the Manchester Evening News lawsuit that
filled day after day of that List during the summer (revealing
barely a one-sided half-portrait of the story) and Ms Bruni's
rather ill-spirited grudge match, I have opted out of taking
part in the forum. I do not consider it productive for ufology
to foster this kind of personalised slanging match since people
will rarely take heed of the facts in judgement and tend to
stand by their own preconceptions as to who they think is right.
So any 'I said, she said' response would not lead to clarity.

I 'know' I was honest with the MoD d have absolutely nothing to
hide. Anyone who thinks otherwise is more than welcome to take
this up directly with me and I ill try to be courteous and
helpful. But I will not engage in some kind of unseemly sideshow
on the internet.

However, I certainly do not have any qualms  about any of my
letters to the MoD appearing - provided that 'balanced'
publication on Updates means that.

Criticise me, if you consider it appropriate, from sight of the
full facts - but not from any kind of blinkered perspective that
may be conveyed by selective presentations. I am happy to take
fair rebukes based on awareness of the truth. But not polemical
assaults fermented by other issues.

As for Ms Bruni's extraordinary comment that I presumably did
not expect this correspondance with the MoD to become known -
this may just reflect her lack of background in this field. And
I do not say that as any personal attack. It is merely an
historical reality.

By which I mean that I actually discussed at length within
UFOlogy my campaign to talk sense to the MoD and to get them to
release their files (if not to BUFORA then to a scientific
institute) - at the time when it was happening. This was
something that persisted for several years and is not merely
evidenced during the Rendlesham case files. In fact it started
in l978.

I lectured on the topic at conferences and indeed  - amongst
other places - I had an article published on this theme in
'Flying Saucer Review' during the period that this campaign was
underway. (The Ministry of Defence Approach it was titled)

I suspect that trying to keep an allegedly 'dirty deed' quiet
from fellow ufologists by writing about what I was doing in
(then) the worlds largest circulation UFO magazine is not
exactly the strategic move of the century.

Of course, knowing the above defuses the point of this verbal
assault. I cannot blame Ms Bruni for not being knowledgeable
enough about UFO history to know these things. She wasnt there,
after all. But she could, of course, have asked before
commenting and I would have happily explained the background.

As might Bill Chalker, who will surely recall that I solicited
his help (that he kindly offered) - in order to try to persuade
the MoD to release data during this time - given that he had
then just obtained access to the RAAF files in Australia as
prelude to their Freedom of Information Act.

Not to mention that I actually discuss this campaign to get
files from the MoD in several of my books. It is even discussed
in Sky Crash  - as I recall - check out pages 69 - 73 of the
paperback where the story of my communicating letters and
efforts to get the MoD to cooperate are reported.

Whatever legitimate excuses Ms Bruni has for not understanding
British UFO history she surely has to have read the above book.
As such the idea of my hoping that this material would not
surface seems somewhat absurd.

After all - it hardly takes Einstein to figure out that if I am
putting so much effort into persuading the MoD to open up its
files then the letters I send to them urging such an act are
themselves going into those files and are rather likely to be
released if I succeed!

Just how does this translate into an inane remark that I maybe
hoped these would never see the light of day?

Am  I missing something here in the chain of logic?

[End of statement]









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   Sep > Sep 17

             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke

From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:11:21 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:13:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke


Greetings list -

Those following the debate over the MOD file on the Rendlesham
Forest incident will be interested to read a letter sent by
Graham Birdsall, editor of UFO Magazine (UK) to a colleague,
Christopher Allan.

Christopher wrote to Birdsall responding to Georgina Bruni's
article on the files published in the September 2001 issue. He
contested Birdsall's claim in the editorial that the files were
"hitherto classified" (other than the fact that they were
covered, like all other official documents, by the "30 year
rule"). This we have made perfectly clear on
www.flyingsaucery.com along with the precise reasons specified
by the MOD for retention of five additional documents (on the
grounds they contain classified radar information and
confidential briefings to Ministers).

In his reply, of 3 September 2001 Birdsall writes:

"Each and all of the Rendlesham Files were indeed classified and
not due for release until 2013. Please do not take my word for
it, but that of Nick Pope and officials at the MOD.

"According to Dr David Clarke, who most would look upon as a
sceptic in such matters, he is aware of at least five further
documents - each classified Top Secret - that have yet to be
released. Quoted in the Daily Star, 30 August 2001, Dr Clarke
said these documents 'could prove there really were aliens on
British soil.'

"The article continued: 'But he says publishing the reports was
blocked by worried defence top brass. Dr Clarke demanded that
the papers should be released immediately.'"

Stop chuckling at the back - I'm sure no one on this List would
seriously believe I said the five missing documents would prove
aliens had landed in Britain, but more on that point later.

Birdsall continues by using Nick Pope's testimony once again in
support of the claimed "cover-up":

"You will doubtless be delighted to learn that Nick Pope will
write about the compartmentalised nature and remit of the MOD
documents concerned in our next issue, which will demonstrate
beyond any reasonable doubt that the Rendlesham Forest incident
was deemed to be of defence significance."

UpDates readers should note the following:

Firstly, once again Nick Pope - who, remember, has said
repeatedly that there was no MOD cover-up - is being shamelessly
used as part of an attempt to create mystery where no mystery
exists. Cash tills are ringing in the background.

Secondly, no conversation ever took place between myself and the
Daily Star because I was on holiday in the Scottish Highlands
when the story was broken by the Guardian - from whom they had
shamelessly copied the story.

The quotes from Daily Star that Birdsall uses are clearly
fabricated and yet UFO Magazine have made no effort to check
they are correct before repeating them to support their claims
of a cover-up. Yet this same magazine attacks journalists for
misquoting ufologists!

As a journalist myself, I've often swapped jokes with colleagues
on the tabloids who cheerfully admit they invent quotes when
they cannot be bothered to follow up a story. In the Star's case
that wasn't even necessary.

For the benefit of foreign readers, the Daily Star is the
tabloid equivalent of America's National Enquirer, while the
Guardian is a serious left-leaning broadsheet. While the Star
are content to copy and misquote, the Guardian scoops all its
rivals by publishing the exclusive memoirs of Stella Rimmington,
the former MI5 director, the week after they ran my Rendlesham
exclusive.

Bear this in mind when you read this extract from a post by
Georgina Bruni from UpDates on 31 August this year:

 >I have spent the last few days trying to undo the debunking that
 >Clarke has done in the Guardian article and on his website. I
 >was asked to talk to a journalist from The Guardian two weeks
 >ago but refused because I know their take on this subject. This
 >was the very newspaper that debunked the case when Ian Ridpath
 >fed them the 'lighthouse theory' in 1985.

 >It is a pity that the broadsheets don't take this case
 >seriously. Over the last month or so, five top journalists have
 >had the story, and two have written it up for publication, only
 >to have it pulled at the last minute. Unfortunately, the only
 >national paper that ran the story without debunking it was the
 >Star - a tabloid. I have to question why, but am of the opinion
 >that this sort of evidence makes the editors nervous.

When journalists won't run with stories supplied by Georgina she
has to believe they have been spiked by a D-Notice. She fails to
appreciate the story hasn't run because even the most cynical of
journalists can see the cover-up claim is nonsense.

I challenge Georgina to name the two journalists who have
written up the story for publication "only to have it pulled at
the last minute." I would not be surprised to discover they are
equally as fictitious as the Guardian reporter who she refused
to speak to!

The whole saga has been vastly amusing, and I now sit back and
wait to see if UFO Magazine are careless enough to re-publish my
invented quoted in the October 2001 issue.

I would ask all those who attend the Leeds conference later this
month to put Pope and Bruni on the spot and ask them what their
_real_ motivations are in continuing to flog a dead horse.

As John Rimmer perceptively put it:

 >there _is_ nothing to cover up, but Pope is happy to
 >associate himself with people who  have created a cottage
 >industry saying that there is, and allows  them to be his
 >mouthpiece on the Web.


All best wishes,

Dave Clarke

www.flyingsaucery.com

"All that studying on fairies should not be taken too seriously.
Believing in flying lighthouses and radioactive rabbits and
pretending to be James Bond may be fun, but isn't it time you
grew up and looked at the real world."

--Georgina Bruni, believer in time-travelling aliens,
September 2001.














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   Sep > Sep 17

                     Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:28:13 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:23:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Young


 >Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:28:39 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That

 >I may be way off base here, but the impression I have of Werner
 >Von Braun is that of a rocketry enthusiast.

 >Von Braun (in this view) could not care less who financed his
 >toys, as long as he could design and fire off better (und
 >besser) rockets.

<snip>

 >Please forgive my crude language, but the Nazi-UFO "connection"
 >is crap. The AVRO car is crap. 98 other wing-ding explanations
 >for UFOs are all crap.

 >Why are we wasting time on such matters?

Larry, All:

Seems like a voice of reason.

Every seen the inside of an old German WWII aircraft at a
museum? If these are what the controls of a saucer look like,
then we don't have to worry. Image being in one of those babies
when they're moving at 1,500 miles/hour and making an
instantateous, right-angle turn.


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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                    Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Boreham

From: Robert Boreham <fatrob83@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:40:59 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:27:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Boreham


 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That
 >Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:22:57 -0400

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 00:11:22 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >>Dear Jan,

 >>I wish to notify this List of a new product from the Gripple
 >>Werken, our factory in Deutchland. We call the new product,
 >>which consists of a new and interesting use for the dried and
 >>compressed Grappa of our pressings (very absorbent), a product
 >>for our ageing Baby Bloomer Pop... You lations. We call it
 >>(thank you Saturday Night Live) "Ooops, I crapped my pants!"

 >>Of course, the same silly fossify applies to the UFO conundrum.
 >>And it happens every time I get abducted... or perceive I've
 >>been abducted. And it almost _always_ happens when they stick it
 >>to me. Which is how I got the idea for OICMP .... Oooops I
 >>crapped my pants.


 >Jim,

 >I spent much time in Italy as a tourist, and actually lived
 >there for over a year and a half, but never could get into
 >drinking that Gripple Grappa stuff. One glass of house wine was
 >good enough for me, I'm a cheap drunk.

 >I remember Von Braun actually said something to the effect that
 >while building rockets in Germany, he was responsible for the
 >plans, not where they came down. That was good for a great
 >laugh.

 >Wendy Connors and Michael Hall found huge files on Paperclip at
 >Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. I have about a dozen microfilms
 >from Maxwell AFB which also contain Paperclip files along with
 >other WWII files. So I now know more than I ever wanted to know
 >about the subject.

 >Of course, the Brits had their own version of Paperclip, but
 >they have more colorful conspiracy theories than Americans.
 >Blowing up Parliament for instance. I still can't figure out why
 >this event is celebrated with fireworks. Can you imagine anyone
 >doing that to the US Congress and ending all that confusion and
 >bickering?


Being British don't make it any easier to understand! We must
have a strange scence of humor? or very vague memories?









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   Sep > Sep 17

                                 Resolution

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:38:07 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:28:48 -0400
Subject: Resolution


I propose, and ask endorsement of, a two-part resolution
concerning UFO Updates:

(1) I will henceforth not post any message that attacks a person
(i.e., ad hominem) as opposed to attacking or disagreeing with
what that person says. Disagree with the argument (facts and
logic), don't insult or demean the person who makes it.

(2) I will henceforth post only messages that bear directly on
reported UFO sightings, and their evaluation and interpretation,
and not focus on personal philosophies or religions or political
viewpoints. Again, if someone posts something invoking the
latter, it will be fair game to disagree with their relevance
and to state specific reasons why you think so, short of calling
the person who states them bad names.

I do not claim to be 100% innocent of violating these principles
in the past during moments of anger or upset, but I do recognize
the need for more civilized discourse and will dedicate myself
to the effort.


Dick










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                   Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:57:15 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:38:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Mortellaro


 >Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:58:24 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That

 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That
 >>Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 03:01:42 -0400

 >Jan, Errol, Listers

 >>Ever hear of the spoils of war?

 >Methinks the vein of my post has come across far stronger than I
 >intended.

 >What I tried to get across was that how many Americans realise
 >that it was the same scientist that put man on the moon as built
 >the rockets that destroyed London. That's all. Americans
 >governments in general like to over look certain details and
 >hide things that shame them. I _know_ this as fact.

 >I also know that serving officers and enlisted men had the
 >choice, fight or die, it was very much like that for the Russian
 >army as well. I suppose this make _us_ the morally right army
 >because our fighting men and women had the choice?

 >War is a shameful thing that we, as the human race, inflict on
 >our fellow beings. War is usually a pride thing. This is very
 >hard for me to say because I fear that WWIII could well be
 >started over the recent atrocities. I honestly think that
 >President Bush also knows this which is why he is treading
 >carefully.

 >I cannot personally condone a course of action that will lead to
 >the loss of life of a fellow human being.

 >I have also read in the papers, and on the Internet, that NATO
 >stands firmly behind the US and that if war is declared then so
 >be it.

 >I repeat, I cannot personally condone a course of action that
 >will lead to the loss of life of a fellow human being.

 >I think I will say no more on this thread for personal reasons,
 >not least because I today discovered that someone I knew was in
 >one of the offices in the south tower, and that there is no news
 >on Amanda.

 >Regards

 >Sean

Dear Sean, Listers, Errol,

I wish to thank Errol for recreating UpDates on all our behalf,
those of us who suffer together. And that is a very large
community these days... So with greatful thanks to Errol and
with his permission, I write...

People who suffer together grow closer than those who are
content. Sayeth the Bard. And if, after all these posts of mine,
you know not who the Bard is, I shall have to beat you with a
wet noodle. The large, Chinese kind. And for those newbies if
any, who know not for whom the Bard speaks, he speaks for me and
he is the great Bobby Zimmerman. AKA, Dylan the Elder. The
younger is nothing more than a silly fax..... uh ... facsimili,
sorry.

Shared illness, fear, terror and even the shared positive
things, such as Pia Zadora, bring those people sharing, close.
And even those who lost no one in this horror, are close.
Whether American or citizen of another nation, the sure and
certain knowledge that this can happen to _any_ of us, allows us
to grow close. Certainly as a country, but also as a world and
in those places on this ball of dirt, where there is even a
semblance of humanity. For as we all know, there are places
where humanity, joie de vivre, peace, love, kindness and respect
for human life is the exception, not the rule. And those places
must be made to become a large field of glass. Like Sodom and
Gamorah, there is no room on this planet for such evil.

I know this will seem a lame example of growing close from
shared adversity, but those of us who have suffered, or
perceived to have suffered, from alien interaction, we are a
close community of souls. And to all of you who share the
memories of such, I urge you to do what many of us have not
done, including myself; bury them hatchets.

I am, and all of us should be, brothers and sisters in
suffering. And we who suffer from shared abduction phenomena as
well as Americans suffering (and likely will continue to suffer)
from terrorism from sleeping cells across our open land, must
join together now. No more to argue over things which have
little meaning in the greater scheme of things. Debate, yes.
Broken friendships and angst, no.

I now have no enemies. Except those we all have. Focus on them.
Volunteer to help one the other. Give blood. Spare your time to
give to your volunteer fire departments. Anything. Make
yourselves good neighbors. Not only does it feel good, but it
does good. And that is the final silken thread which makes the
bond. Giving.

And sometimes, "giving" means ending bad relationships. I offer
my hand to you, John, in friendship.

Due to circumcisions beyond control, our final move to the North
country is delayed until this coming Saturday. We need only a
few hundred grand. Any takers?


Jim Mortellaro









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   Sep > Sep 17

                   Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:21:13 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:45:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Mortellaro


 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That
 >Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:22:57 -0400

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 00:11:22 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That
 >>>Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 03:01:42 -0400

<snip>

 >>Dear Jan,

 >>I wish to notify this List of a new product from the Gripple
 >>Werken, our factory in Deutchland. We call the new product,
 >>which consists of a new and interesting use for the dried and
 >>compressed Grappa of our pressings (very absorbent), a product
 >>for our ageing Baby Bloomer Pop... You lations. We call it
 >>(thank you Saturday Night Live) "Ooops, I crapped my pants!"

 >>Of course, the same silly fossify applies to the UFO conundrum.
 >>And it happens every time I get abducted... or perceive I've
 >>been abducted. And it almost _always_ happens when they stick it
 >>to me. Which is how I got the idea for OICMP .... Oooops I
 >>crapped my pants.

 >>Thank you,

<snip>

 >I spent much time in Italy as a tourist, and actually lived
 >there for over a year and a half, but never could get into
 >drinking that Gripple Grappa stuff. One glass of house wine was
 >good enough for me, I'm a cheap drunk.

Unfortunately I've never been a cheap anything. Which means that
anything I like is almost always too damned expensive for me.
Not to worry, I just discovered a tree where money grows.

Allow me to example you regarding my uncheap habits. At the WTC
last Tuesday, one of the guys was smoking Marlboro all night.
And frankly, I had not smoked a cigarette in more than 15 years.

But it smelled so good. And we were in that confined place in a
com van, good ventilation, but not great. And this jive turkey
was smoking up a storm. I must have been breathing his smoke
because the aroma was making me really happy. No, not whacky
tabacky, just that nice, mellow feeling after you've enjoyed a
smoke.

Well, I kept looking at them Marlboro's and smelling the smells.
Frankly, the odor outside was terrible. I kept looking at his
lips with that wonderful ciggy in it, he kept looking at me and
finally, I took a butt. After all those years I sucked down that
cigarette and haven't stopped since.

Which makes me a maroon. Hooked in less than a night. Now that's
a spicey meataballa.

 >I remember Von Braun actually said something to the effect that
 >while building rockets in Germany, he was responsible for the
 >plans, not where they came down. That was good for a great
 >laugh.

 >Wendy Connors and Michael Hall found huge files on Paperclip at
 >Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. I have about a dozen microfilms
 >from Maxwell AFB which also contain Paperclip files along with
 >other WWII files. So I now know more than I ever wanted to know
 >about the subject.

 >Of course, the Brits had their own version of Paperclip, but
 >they have more colorful conspiracy theories than Americans.
 >Blowing up Parliament for instance. I still can't figure out why
 >this event is celebrated with fireworks. Can you imagine anyone
 >doing that to the US Congress and ending all that confusion and
 >bickering?

 >Jan

Dear Jan, Listers and Errol,

Verner was my hero when he began his appearances on the Disney
show. Hero. And this after one part of my Guinzoid family
(Palermians to a man, woman and Godfadda), the sephardic ones in
Hungary, lost ninety plus, leaving only two to come to our
country and begin anew here. My aunt never said a word when I
watched Disney's Sunday shows on space. When Verner showed his
face, she left the room. Everyone looked after her and followed
her out to console her. I never knew what was up. I was maybe
ten years or so, give or take a year. But she would be inside
shedding a tear or three. And me, watching my hero, Verner Von
Braun. I was in space. Chasing the bastards what used to go
after me. What'd I know?

I know now. And I am sorry Aunt Olga. She's still with us, quite
elderly and quite ill. That's what I get for being an only
child. Everything (almost) I wanted. Shoot, I'll never do that
again.

Docca Morty








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                          Secrecy News -- 09/17/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@igc.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:27:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:54:40 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 09/17/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
September 17, 2001


**  NEW RESOURCES ON TERRORISM


NEW RESOURCES ON TERRORISM

Usama bin Laden is estimated to have about $300 million in
personal financial assets with which he funds his Al Qaida
network of as many as 3,000 Islamic militants, according to a
report published last week by the Congressional Research
Service.

"Al Qaida cells have been identified or suspected in
Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen,
Jordan, Egypt, Libya, Lebanon, Algeria, Tunisia, Mauritania,
Sudan, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Chechnya, Somalia,
Eritrea, Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, Ethiopia, other parts of
Africa, Malaysia, the Philippines, Uruguay, Ecuador, Bosnia,
Kosovo, Albania, the United Kingdom, Canada, and allegedly
inside the United States itself," the new report said.

The CRS report, which is based on open sources, is entitled
"Terrorism: Near Eastern Groups and State Sponsors, 2001." It
was authored by CRS analyst Kenneth Katzman and is dated
September 10. A copy is available here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL31119.pdf

Other CRS reports on related topics include "Terrorism and the
Military's Role in Domestic Crisis Management," dated April 19,
2001:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL30928.pdf

and "Terrorism: Automated Lookout Systems and Border Security
Options and Issues," dated June 18, 2001:

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL31019.pdf

In 1999, President Clinton found that by harboring Usama bin
Laden, the Taliban of Afghanistan constituted an unusual and
extraordinary threat to the United States. He declared a
national emergency in response. See Executive Order 13129:

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo/eo-13129.htm

The resulting sanctions against Afghanistan and the Taliban that
are now in place are described by the U.S. Department of the
Treasury here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/t11tali.pdf

A summary of existing terrorism sanctions generally is provided
here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/t11ter.pdf


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:
   subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:
   http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691








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                           Re: Resolution - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:11:48 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:25:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Resolution - McCoy



 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Resolution
 >Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:38:07 +0000

 >I propose, and ask endorsement of, a two-part resolution
 >concerning UFO Updates:

 >(1) I will henceforth not post any message that attacks a person
 >(i.e., ad hominem) as opposed to attacking or disagreeing with
 >what that person says. Disagree with the argument (facts and
 >logic), don't insult or demean the person who makes it.

 >(2) I will henceforth post only messages that bear directly on
 >reported UFO sightings, and their evaluation and interpretation,
 >and not focus on personal philosophies or religions or political
 >viewpoints. Again, if someone posts something invoking the
 >latter, it will be fair game to disagree with their relevance
 >and to state specific reasons why you think so, short of calling
 >the person who states them bad names.

 >I do not claim to be 100% innocent of violating these principles
 >in the past during moments of anger or upset, but I do recognize
 >the need for more civilized discourse and will dedicate myself
 >to the effort.


Dick,

Hear, hear, I second the motion-

GT McCoy








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                          Re: Resolution - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 07:00:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:35:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Resolution - Lehmberg


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Resolution
 >Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:38:07 +0000

 >I propose, and ask endorsement of, a two-part resolution
 >concerning UFO Updates:

 >(1) I will henceforth not post any message that attacks a person
 >(i.e., ad hominem) as opposed to attacking or disagreeing with
 >what that person says. Disagree with the argument (facts and
 >logic), don't insult or demean the person who makes it.

"Don't insult or demean" would be a fine ideal, forgetting that
folks need a good elbow now and again... and an efficacious
elbow can be, too blithely, censured as the insult and specious
detraction you allude to... Still, I aspire to be all good
elbow.

...No cheap shots, or senseless points taken, and everybody
defends the implications of their convictions, view points, and
world views facilitating mutual advancement and individual
enlightenment. I'd facilitate the inclusive and deny the
exclusive to promote the conclusive...

 >(2) I will henceforth post only messages that bear directly on
 >reported UFO sightings, and their evaluation and interpretation,
 >and not focus on personal philosophies or religions or political
 >viewpoints.

Whoa. That's not entirely realistic given that any supposed
remainder is still ruled by their own personal philosophies or
religions or political viewpoints. And if all that goes on is
more benign bean counting and sifting of the otherwise ignored
and disrespected data (that has hallmarked the production of a
ufological effort here-to-for), I'd suggest that that dog barks
up the wrong tree.

I'd suggest an activist role. Even in this day and age.
Especially in this day and age! The sooner the better! Nothing
else seems to work, history abundantly demonstrates. If you
really want to know (really, really want to know!), you have to
rather stridently _insist_ on knowing. If you want
accountability, you have to demand accountability! If you want a
forthcoming leadership, you must accept no less!

 >Again, if someone posts something invoking the
 >latter, it will be fair game to disagree with their relevance
 >and to state specific reasons why you think so, short of calling
 >the person who states them bad names.

On the other hand, we could just cut to the chase. Any
invocation of the latter is handily dealt with by the intrepid
Mr. Flynn. I don't think we need to worry our pretty little
heads about the mechanics of List officiation. A quality job has
been maintained for years. One couldn't _pay_ for a better, more
inclusive service. Hmmm.....

 >I do not claim to be 100% innocent of violating these principles
 >in the past during moments of anger or upset,

Well -- I do. <...smoothing an eyebrow with a licked pinky>. <g>.

 >but I do recognize
 >the need for more civilized discourse and will dedicate myself
 >to the effort.

I'd imagine that our ufological conundrum (that does not go away
as a result of a terrorist attack) has wider horizons than you
are giving it credit for. I think that it is insinuated into
every sociological, institutional, and cultural aspect of the
wider considerations organic to an entire planet... and that
that planet does not _recognize_ the contrived parochial or
_respect_ the convenient ethnocentric.

I think you ignore key points in a Spartan, washed-out,
atmosphere of only considering messages that bear directly on
reported UFO sightings, their evaluation and interpretation, and
otherwise dismiss personal philosophies, religions, or political
viewpoints. UFOs are about all those things.

To try to parse out the ufological from sociological is like
trying to distill new life from week old hamburger... consider
further that full disclosure a month ago would likely have
precluded collapesed buildings of murdered thousands a week ago.
Jimmy doesn't hit Johnny in the head with a brick bat if he
knows there's an adult there to watch... Now I think that's a
truism. Do you?

In as much as this is more about control of List contribution
(dumping me and Dr. Morty <g>.) than about civilized discourse
let me just say this: Take away _all_ the freeform and seemingly
undisciplined thinking and you hamstring the potential for
creative and progressive contribution of greater reach, if _not_
grasp! Moreover, in as much as the ufological status quo has
done nothing to alleviate, in the slightest, our confusion
regarding the issue, one might consider more respect for
concerned and lawful activism and continue to suffer a few of us
with the inconvenient predilection to keep an elbow in your
side.

We've a rough row to hoe. A capital opportunity has been
presented to a suspicious leadership poised to push all the
really important subjects to a distant back burner, if not
completely off the stove! The environment, social
responsibility, individual rights, free expression, and UFOs...
all are trivialized and dismissed to facilitate the likely
invented concerns regarding the antithesis of all those
things... Welcome back to the nineteenth century?


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

 >~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.








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                Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 -

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:32:13 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:36:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 -


 >Hi Joe,

 >No, you've not missed anything! You're quite right, there is no
 >evidence of a cover-up and Nick is quite right. But the question
 >was to illustrate the contradiction between his stance and that
 >adopted by Georgina and by UFO magazine. They both use his
 >statements as evidence to support a cover up; Pope writes a
 >forward to a book whose main argument is that there was a
 >cover-up; the whole bunch can't get their story consistent.

 >That was the point that Nick Redfern was teasing out in his
 >message to UpDates earlier this week.

 >What my whole argument amounts to is this: no one asks any
 >critical questions. It's time someone started!

Thanks for the response, Dave, I was starting to think I had
missed something. I do think that while you may have reason to
question the tack that Georgina and UFOMAG take in relation to
Rendlesham, Nick has been consistant in his statements to the
effect that there was no cover-up? His writing of the forword in
YCTTP doesn't neccessarily mean that he agrees with everything
in the book.

Surely you would agree with me that the book makes a reasonable
attempt to record the known facts, even if you disagree with the
interpretation of those facts?


Regards,

Joe










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                      Re: On A Personal Note - Furlotte

From: David Furlotte <furry@nobelmed.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:38:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:40:49 -0400
Subject: Re: On A Personal Note - Furlotte


 >Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:53:33 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: On A Personal Note

 >Hello All,

 >I just want to thank Errol Bruce-Knapp, Scott Robbins, and Dave
 >(Furry) Furlotte for their courage and guts in putting out a
 >'normal' UFO program on 'Strange Days... Indeed' on Saturday
 >night.

I would also like to say thank you, John, for being a part of the
show. I'm not sure that I would have the strength of character
to be able to participate if it were Toronto that suffered the
heinous attack that your city had. Being able to pick up the pieces
and carry on with "life as usual" in the face of this simply shows
the incredible resolve that New Yorkers have and in doing so,
you send a clear message to the animals responsible.

 >I could hear the pain and the strain in Errol, Scott, and Dave's
 >voices last Saturday night. I _know_ how hard it was for them to
 >stay focused and to put their best effort out under the extreme
 >and emotional circumstances. Speaking as one New Yorker I am
 >deeply grateful for their valiant effort to help us all get back
 >to our everyday routines. SDI (for me) _is_ a very real and
 >important part of my 'Normal Routine'. Although I had to choke
 >back tears it simply felt good to be doing something that always
 >brings me great personal satisfaction and great pleasure.
 >(Spending time with EBK, Scott, and the listeners and other
 >regular contributors to SDI.)

The medium of Radio allows us more leeway than any other and it
was fortunate that there were three of us in the studio. There
were times when either Errol or Scott or I were unable to speak
and I think we managed to cover a little for each other. After
the show, we went for a beer and of course, the television was
showing images and updates. Once again, we felt the pain and
heaviness in our hearts as we watched those images and spoke
about our own feelings and views.

 >God bless you guys. You did good. It took courage to overcome
 >your own pain and _do_the_show_ and I have nothing but respect
 >for your efforts and for all of you.

 >My thanks for the momentary "break" in the grief.

You were a part of that "break" in grief, Sir, and allowed us
the luxury of being able to take a breather. Thank _you_ for
participating and being there for us.


Be safe, my friend,

Dave (Furry) Furlotte








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                           Re: Resolution - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:50:10 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:43:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Resolution - Rimmer


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Resolution
 >Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:38:07 +0000

 >I propose, and ask endorsement of, a two-part resolution
 >concerning UFO Updates:

 >(1) I will henceforth not post any message that attacks a person
 >(i.e., ad hominem) as opposed to attacking or disagreeing with
 >what that person says. Disagree with the argument (facts and
 >logic), don't insult or demean the person who makes it.

I don't really think that this resolution, however well meaning,
is at all practical. The main problem is that so many arguments
and viewpoints are almost exclusively identified with one
person, so that any criticism of them is invariably interpreted
as an attack on the person promoting that viewpoint. And so many
people take such personal 'ownership' of their opinions and
research that they are only too willing to see any criticism of
what they say as a criticism of themselves.

This appears to be particularly so in the case of abductees, who
have publicy enrolled themselves in the UFO debate. What they
have experienced is so intensely personal, that it seems to be
very difficult for them to see any critical analysis or
questioning as other than a hostile attack.

The plea to 'keep personalities out of it' is a regular demand
in ufology, but I fear it is as impossible as 'keeping
personalities' out of politics. I hear demands for that too,
from time to time - usually from prominent political
personalities!

 >(2) I will henceforth post only messages that bear directly on
 >reported UFO sightings, and their evaluation and interpretation,
 >and not focus on personal philosophies or religions or political
 >viewpoints. Again, if someone posts something invoking the
 >latter, it will be fair game to disagree with their relevance
 >and to state specific reasons why you think so, short of calling
 >the person who states them bad names.

But personal philosophies, religions and political viewpionts
are an integral part of ufology - they determine the way in
which individuals interpret the world around them and how they
integrate anomalies such as UFOs into their world view. A person
with an extreme-right political philosophy is likely to see
black helicopters as sinister tools of the cetral government,
whilst a hippy-dippy Magonian psychosocial type will see them as
some sort of vague psychic archetype (only joking, Jerry!) If
you're going to challenge someone's views on such a topic you
are also going to be challenging their political and social
attitudes. Unfortunately, many people will see this as an 'ad
hominem' attack.

 >I do not claim to be 100% innocent of violating these principles
 >in the past during moments of anger or upset, but I do recognize
 >the need for more civilized discourse and will dedicate myself
 >to the effort.

I think most of the discourse we see on this List is pretty
civilised. Unfortunately, the cry of "vicious personal attack"
or a claim of injured ego is sometimes seen as a way of bringing
to a close a robust exchange of views which is getting a little
too warm for comfort.


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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   Sep > Sep 18

                     US UFO Sightings During Grounding?

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:03:01 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:46:33 -0400
Subject: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?


Ladies & Gentlemen:

Presumably people in the US were still watching the skies last
week, when all civilian air traffic was grounded, perhaps more
so than usually.

I wonder whether UFO sightings continued unabated, and what kind
of UFOs were sighted? Triangular, Daylights Disks, or what?

Does the inability of a peacetime military to defend the
nation's capital have any implications for the inability of a
similar peacetime force, in 1947, to conduct a sophisticated
overall cover up of an alien saucer crash in New Mexico?

I wonder what other implications these events might have for
students of the UFO subject?


Clear skies,

Bob Young








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                           Re: Resolution - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:14:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:18:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Resolution - Clark


 >Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:50:10 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Resolution


 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Resolution
 >>Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:38:07 +0000


John,

 >whilst a hippy-dippy Magonian psychosocial type will see them as
 >some sort of vague psychic archetype (only joking, Jerry!)

Well, actually, I think I've more often accused you guys of
being librarians.


Meaning no disrespect,

Jerry Clark








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             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke

From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:36:56 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:22:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Clarke


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - McGonagle
 >Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:32:13 +0100


Hi Joe -

 >Thanks for the response, Dave, I was starting to think I had
 >missed something. I do think that while you may have reason to
 >question the tack that Georgina and UFOMAG take in relation to
 >Rendlesham, Nick has been consistant in his statements to the
 >effect that there was no cover-up? His writing of the forword in
 >YCTTP doesn't neccessarily mean that he agrees with everything
 >in the book.

Agreed in terms of the cover-up and apologies if that is what I
appear to have been suggesting. The point I was trying to make
was summed up far more effectively by John Rimmer who wrote:

 >>there _is_ nothing to cover up, but Pope is happy to
 >>associate himself with people who have created a cottage
 >>industry saying that there is, and allows them to be his
 >>mouthpiece on the Web.

As I've said before Pope is a nice bloke and his open-minded
attitude is a generally a credit to himself and the subject.
However, given the contradictory statements he has made on a
variety of subjects (see Nick Redfern's post to this list) I
maintain we _should_ be asking questions, not blindly consuming
everything he and his spokeswoman tells us.

 >Surely you would agree with me that the book makes a reasonable
 >attempt to record the known facts, even if you disagree with the
 >interpretation of those facts?

I think Georgina's book is super and and have told her how much
I enjoyed reading it, on this List and privately. No one denies
that it does a good job at recording the known facts. That does
not stop me from pointing out that it is written from a
belief-driven viewpoint and would never be regarded as an
objective historical account. But then if I took that attitude
as an excuse to clear out my bookcase I dare say I wouldn't have
many books left to read!

Keep up the good work Georgina - I just enjoy a good argument
now and again!


Dave Clarke








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               Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:43:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:45:04 -0400
Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Velez


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:03:01 EDT
 >Subject: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Ladies & Gentlemen:

 >Presumably people in the US were still watching the skies last
 >week, when all civilian air traffic was grounded, perhaps more
 >so than usually.

 >I wonder whether UFO sightings continued unabated, and what kind
 >of UFOs were sighted? Triangular, Daylights Disks, or what?

 >Does the inability of a peacetime military to defend the
 >nation's capital have any implications for the inability of a
 >similar peacetime force, in 1947, to conduct a sophisticated
 >overall cover up of an alien saucer crash in New Mexico?

 >I wonder what other implications these events might have for
 >students of the UFO subject?


Howdy 'Young' Bob,

Last week I posted two informal reports to the members of the
AIC e-mail List (I also shared it with Don Ledger and EBK)
about two _daylight_ 'white disc' sightings that I had on two
consecutive days. Both sightings were of a 'clearly defined' and
'distinct' solitary white disc.

I even managed to shoot two photos (with my digital camera) of
one of the solitary discs. (On the second day) I was going to
send EBK a copy of the pix in order to kind of 'document' the
sightings. But, the barely visible, fuzzy, little white blob
that my camera recorded was not clear enough/good enough to be
considered acceptable 'proof' of what I had seen with my naked
eyes.

If anybody with the $ or equipment wants to donate a digital
videocam with high magnification capability to me, this poor
bastard would greatly appreciate it! I'm just dying to capture
these sightings on quality equipment that will allow others to
see and study the objects I see fairly regularly in the skies
over New York. Contact me privately if you can help me. I'm
serious about this. I'm having sightings and don't have the
right equipment to document them properly for later analysis by
experts.

Considering the fact that the only thing in the air over New
York was several F-15s (which is what I was looking for in the
first place! I had gone out to check out the fighters. UFOs were
the farthest thing from my mind at the time.) and that the
pilots were flying under orders to shoot first and ask questions
later, I'm surprised these objects were not picked up and
targeted. Maybe they were, and our guys were told to ignore them
rather than chase them.

One disc (sighting on second day) was coming from the direction
of Manhattan. At first I thought, "maybe they turned loose a
weather balloon to check wind direction and it's blowing in
towards me." But the object stopped _dead_ in its tracks for
several seconds. Then it started moving again in a slightly
altered flight path toward me. I watched the clearly visible
white disc, which looked more like it was 'glowing' from within
- a soft light; not as harsh to the eye as reflected light; as
it flew overhead slightly to the North of my position, it
stopped dead in its tracks again for another few seconds, and it
then disappeared over the rooftops as it moved off towards the
East/Atlantic ocean. The whole "sighting" lasted two to three
minutes, tops.

I didn't want to post the sightings to the List because:

1. I didn't have _good_ photographic evidence to back up my
verbal report. It just would have been more 'anecdotal' BS and
Lord knows we're all tired of hearing those kinds of "reports."

2. The recent tragedy precluded interjecting "UFO" sighting
reports into the already highly emotionally charged situation.

3. Because I didn't get good photos, I didn't feel like
'debating' my sightings in a public forum like this. We've all
been too devastated by the tragedy to go off debating another
anecdotal report.

It was just bad timing Bob, and might have been, mistakenly,
perceived as being in bad taste to interject UFOs into an
already _painful_ situation.

The 'short version' is; Yes Bob, I saw _two_ UFOs last week in
the skies over New York. And considering the circumstances; as
John Lennon said in his famous tune: "There are UFOs over New
York, and I ain't too surpriiiiised,..."   ;)


Regards,

John Velez



                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."








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   Sep > Sep 18

                   Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 1956 03:12:49 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:50:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That - Goldstein


 >Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:40:00 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That

 >>Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:16:52 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Nazi UFOs And All That

<snip>

 >Don't you know that when Dr. Von Braun was asked how he could
 >launch rockets that were going to kill civilians he allegedly
 >said, "It was my department to send them up but it was a
 >different department responsible for where they landed".


Hello my fellow Listerons,

I must say that, in case you didn't know, what I posted above is
an old joke. It is also a joke about the compartmenalization of
German beauracracy. Believe me, I know. I've been living herein
Berlin, Germany for the last two years. The city is great, the
people are fine, yet the beauacrrappy is more compartmentalized
than the NRO. In other words, you have to run all over the place
to get one job handled. One department has no relation to the
other, so that a small job requires seeing many departments.
That may have a lot to do with why the German war machine was
inefficient. That and certain labor laws make it hard for
companies to quickly adjust. That may be why the German industry
is having their first layoffs in modern history.

In East Germany under Communism they had no layoffs and no money
or freedom. After the fall of the wall (everything in the East
except for some Stalinist ugly block building was pretty much
the same as right after WWII - cobblestone streets, etc), ll the
unbelievably heavy polluting plants were closed. New industry,
businesses and commerce came in. But I think they still have a
very high unemployment rate of something like 18%, in case you
were burnin' to know.

On another note, I quickly met with Dr. Von Braun when I worked
at the National Air and Space Museum of the Smithsonian
Institution in 1976. Duh, I never thought then to ask him about
UFOs. It was before I knew of his interest. And I was too dense
to put 2+2 together. If he was the Rocketmeister he may have
asked a lot of questions about the nature of UFOs and also
thought over ideas on how to build them. Otherwise, he was
friendly and cheery.

Tschus (bye),

Josh










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                       Re: Aftermath Of Attack - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:01:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:52:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Aftermath Of Attack - Velez


 >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Aftermath Of Attack
 >Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 07:54:52 -0700

 >>Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:26:05 -0700
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Aftermath Of Attack

<snip>


Hiya Royce,

Because I myself have needed to be forgiven in my life, I
believe in forgiving others. Although I cannot find it in my
heart anywhere to "forgive and forget" the animal(s) behind
these most recent atrocities, I think I can find it in my heart
to forgive Lara.  ;)

She is _clearly_ self absorbed, deeply deluded, and out of
touch with reality. I can only feel sympathy for her. Let's
forgive _her_ because she's only human, and try to forget all
the insensitive and self-centered remarks that she has posted
and just move on. This nonsense has already taken up enough of
our time and energies.

I'm sure you agree.  :)


Regards,

John Velez


                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 18

                            A Note To My Friends

From: Peter Robbins <probbins@teamcpm.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:24:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:58:36 -0400
Subject: A Note To My Friends


Dear friends,

Just a brief, belated note to thank all of you who have written
or inquired about my safety or whereabouts this past week.

I was several miles north of the World Trade Center complex when
this horror transpired.

While I, my family, immediate friends and colleagues were
unhurt, I am quite overcome by the number of friends of friends
who were not as fortunate.

I spent most of this past weekend in lower Manhattan trying to
grasp what has happened to my dear city. I don't think that I
have ever been prouder to call myself a New Yorker, or sadder.

We in the field of serious UFO studies have long accustomed
ourselves to dealing with what others might call the
unbelievable, but nothing ever prepared me for the sight of what
was left of the North Tower - a still-smoking five-story stack
of complete rubble mixed with the remains of five thousand plus
former human beings.

If nothing else, this horrific event should serve to remind us
all how fragile life is, and that while we are here, we should
attempt to do some good. The many messages I've received from
around this country, from the United Kingdom and elsewhere have
reminded me how rich in friends I am and what an honor it is to
work at something which has brought me so close to so many fine
people I would never otherwise have met.


With the very best of wishes to you all,

Peter Robbins
Editor, UFOcity.com
Manhattan







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 18

                           Re: Resolution - Rimmer

From: "Richard Hall" <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:23:43 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:14:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Resolution - Rimmer


 >Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:50:10 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 >From: John Rimmer
 >Subject: Re: Resolution

 >>From: Richard Hall
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Resolution
 >>Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:38:07 +0000

 >>I propose, and ask endorsement of, a two-part resolution

 >>concerning UFO UpDates:

 >>(1) I will henceforth not post any message that attacks a person
 >>(i.e., ad hominem) as opposed to attacking or disagreeing with
 >>what that person says. Disagree with the argument (facts and
 >>logic), don't insult or demean the person who makes it.

 >I don't really think that this resolution, however well meaning,
 >is at all practical. The main problem is that so many arguments
 >and viewpoints are almost exclusively identified with one
 >person, so that any criticism of them is invariably interpreted
 >as an attack on the person promoting that viewpoint. And so many
 >people take such personal 'ownership' of their opinions and
 >research that they are only too willing to see any criticism of
 >what they say as a criticism of themselves.

John,

Apparently you and I are divided by a common language. You are
reading all sorts of things into what I thought was a rather
simple and clear-cut statement.

 >This appears to be particularly so in the case of abductees, who
 >have publicy enrolled themselves in the UFO debate. What they
 >have experienced is so intensely personal, that it seems to be
 >very difficult for them to see any critical analysis or

 >questioning as other than a hostile attack.

You certainly are generalizing here about a very diverse
population. Anyway, how personally people take things or how
uncritical their reasoning faculties in regard to language is
their problem and if they can't stand the heat, they will have
to get out of the kitchen.

 >The plea to 'keep personalities out of it' is a regular demand
 >in ufology, but I fear it is as impossible as 'keeping
 >personalities' out of politics. I hear demands for that too,
 >from time to time - usually from prominent political
 >personalities!

This is your "straw man." I never said this. Obviously
personalities, and egos, are all over the field. My whole point
is that when you think someone's arguments and logic (or for
that matter their behavior or tactics) are wrong, you can say so
without personal name-calling. As a concrete example, if I think
Peter Gersten is behaving foolishly or selfishly, or with some
ulterior motive, I can say this without calling him a "flaming
idiot" for what he posted here. (I may really think the latter,
but I don't have to say so).

 >>(2) I will henceforth post only messages that bear directly on
 >>reported UFO sightings, and their evaluation and interpretation,
 >>and not focus on personal philosophies or religions or political
 >>viewpoints. Again, if someone posts something invoking the
 >>latter, it will be fair game to disagree with their relevance
 >>and to state specific reasons why you think so, short of calling
 >>the person who states them bad names.

 >But personal philosophies, religions and political viewpionts
 >are an integral part of ufology - they determine the way in
 >which individuals interpret the world around them and how they
 >integrate anomalies such as UFOs into their world view. A person
 >with an extreme-right political philosophy is likely to see
 >black helicopters as sinister tools of the cetral government,
 >whilst a hippy-dippy Magonian psychosocial type will see them as
 >some sort of vague psychic archetype (only joking, Jerry!) If
 >you're going to challenge someone's views on such a topic you
 >are also going to be challenging their political and social
 >attitudes. Unfortunately, many people will see this as an 'ad

 >hominem' attack.

So what? Who cares what ignorant people think? If someone
invokes Left Wing politics (say) as allegedly being an integral
part of the UFO subject, they deserve to be pounced on and
disputed. All my resolution calls for is for as many people as
are willing to do so to resolve to avoid that kind of reasoning
and stick to the facts of the subject. The resolution already
covers that.

 >>I do not claim to be 100% innocent of violating these principles
 >>in the past during moments of anger or upset, but I do recognize
 >>the need for more civilized discourse and will dedicate myself
 >>to the effort.

 >I think most of the discourse we see on this List is pretty

 >civilised.

I guess it depends on how much you delete without reading, an
increasing amount for me. It is the civilized discourse that
keeps me going, but there is a lot of trash and name calling as
well.

 >Unfortunately, the cry of "vicious personal attack"
 >or a claim of injured ego is sometimes seen as a way of bringing
 >to a close a robust exchange of views which is getting a little

 >too warm for comfort.

I'm all for robust exchanges. All I am asking for is a
resolution to try (a) to avoid name calling, and (b) to stay on
topic and avoid using the list to advance a political or
religious viewpoint or to invoke it as an alleged essential
element of the phenomenon. This seems very simple and basic to
me. Of course, "psychosocials" may see it as a threat because
they apparently really don't believe that there is any such
thing as a real, objective, physical UFO phenomenon. In their
case, I say let them argue that viewpoint if they wish and those
of us who think that is "flaming nonsense" will refrain from
calling them insulting names. Instead, we will try to point out
the errors in their facts. logic, and reasoning. Pretty simple,
really.


- Dick

P.S. Many people seem to have difficulty with the concept of "ad
hominem." I may say more on that point later.








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 18

                            Re: Resolution - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:23:43 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:26:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Resolution - Hall


 >Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:50:10 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 >From: John Rimmer
 >Subject: Re: Resolution

 >>From: Richard Hall
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Resolution
 >>Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:38:07 +0000

 >>I propose, and ask endorsement of, a two-part resolution

 >>concerning UFO UpDates:

 >>(1) I will henceforth not post any message that attacks a person
 >>(i.e., ad hominem) as opposed to attacking or disagreeing with
 >>what that person says. Disagree with the argument (facts and
 >>logic), don't insult or demean the person who makes it.

 >I don't really think that this resolution, however well meaning,
 >is at all practical. The main problem is that so many arguments
 >and viewpoints are almost exclusively identified with one
 >person, so that any criticism of them is invariably interpreted
 >as an attack on the person promoting that viewpoint. And so many
 >people take such personal 'ownership' of their opinions and
 >research that they are only too willing to see any criticism of
 >what they say as a criticism of themselves.

John,

Apparently you and I are divided by a common language. You are
reading all sorts of things into what I thought was a rather
simple and clear-cut statement.

 >This appears to be particularly so in the case of abductees, who
 >have publicy enrolled themselves in the UFO debate. What they
 >have experienced is so intensely personal, that it seems to be
 >very difficult for them to see any critical analysis or

 >questioning as other than a hostile attack.

You certainly are generalizing here about a very diverse
population. Anyway, how personally people take things or how
uncritical their reasoning faculties in regard to language is
their problem and if they can't stand the heat, they will have
to get out of the kitchen.

 >The plea to 'keep personalities out of it' is a regular demand
 >in ufology, but I fear it is as impossible as 'keeping
 >personalities' out of politics. I hear demands for that too,
 >from time to time - usually from prominent political
 >personalities!

This is your "straw man." I never said this. Obviously
personalities, and egos, are all over the field. My whole point
is that when you think someone's arguments and logic (or for
that matter their behavior or tactics) are wrong, you can say so
without personal name-calling. As a concrete example, if I think
Peter Gersten is behaving foolishly or selfishly, or with some
ulterior motive, I can say this without calling him a "flaming
idiot" for what he posted here. (I may really think the latter,
but I don't have to say so).

 >>(2) I will henceforth post only messages that bear directly on
 >>reported UFO sightings, and their evaluation and interpretation,
 >>and not focus on personal philosophies or religions or political
 >>viewpoints. Again, if someone posts something invoking the
 >>latter, it will be fair game to disagree with their relevance
 >>and to state specific reasons why you think so, short of calling
 >>the person who states them bad names.

 >But personal philosophies, religions and political viewpionts
 >are an integral part of ufology - they determine the way in
 >which individuals interpret the world around them and how they
 >integrate anomalies such as UFOs into their world view. A person
 >with an extreme-right political philosophy is likely to see
 >black helicopters as sinister tools of the cetral government,
 >whilst a hippy-dippy Magonian psychosocial type will see them as
 >some sort of vague psychic archetype (only joking, Jerry!) If
 >you're going to challenge someone's views on such a topic you
 >are also going to be challenging their political and social
 >attitudes. Unfortunately, many people will see this as an 'ad

 >hominem' attack.

So what? Who cares what ignorant people think? If someone
invokes Left Wing politics (say) as allegedly being an integral
part of the UFO subject, they deserve to be pounced on and
disputed. All my resolution calls for is for as many people as
are willing to do so to resolve to avoid that kind of reasoning
and stick to the facts of the subject. The resolution already
covers that.

 >>I do not claim to be 100% innocent of violating these principles
 >>in the past during moments of anger or upset, but I do recognize
 >>the need for more civilized discourse and will dedicate myself
 >>to the effort.

 >I think most of the discourse we see on this List is pretty

 >civilised.

I guess it depends on how much you delete without reading, an
increasing amount for me. It is the civilized discourse that
keeps me going, but there is a lot of trash and name calling as
well.

 >Unfortunately, the cry of "vicious personal attack"
 >or a claim of injured ego is sometimes seen as a way of bringing
 >to a close a robust exchange of views which is getting a little

 >too warm for comfort.

I'm all for robust exchanges. All I am asking for is a
resolution to try (a) to avoid name calling, and (b) to stay on
topic and avoid using the list to advance a political or
religious viewpoint or to invoke it as an alleged essential
element of the phenomenon. This seems very simple and basic to
me. Of course, "psychosocials" may see it as a threat because
they apparently really don't believe that there is any such
thing as a real, objective, physical UFO phenomenon. In their
case, I say let them argue that viewpoint if they wish and those
of us who think that is "flaming nonsense" will refrain from
calling them insulting names. Instead, we will try to point out
the errors in their facts. logic, and reasoning. Pretty simple,
really.


- Dick

P.S. Many people seem to have difficulty with the concept of "ad
hominem." I may say more on that point later.








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 18

                      Re: Some Morons..... - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 1956 03:38:01 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:30:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Some Morons..... - Goldstein


 >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Some Morons.....
 >Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:06:44 -0700

 >The following was sent out by the organizers of the Bay Area UFO
 >Expo. It didn't take long for some a-hole out there to start
 >spewing about "what _really_ happened" back east and giving
 >"exclusive presentations". Yes, we all know it was a conspiracy
 >you morons... shame on you and anyone else trying to take
 >advantage of the people back East:

 >    "Despite what some of you may have heard Richard Hoagland
 >    say on Art Bell's radio program, most of the other speakers
 >    have, in fact, NOT cancelled. Yes, Mr. Hoagland has
 >    cancelled. However, he is being replace by Master Scholar,
 >    Jordan Maxwell, who was prominent at our companion
 >    conference, CONSPIRACY CON, this past May. Mr. Maxwell
 >    will have much to say about the Bible and UFOs, Religion,
 >    Secret Societies and Conspiracies, as well as an exclusive
 >    presentation on what has "really" happened in New York and
 >    Washington, D.C. this past week."


Oh Royce,

Not Jordan Maxcwell. He's still a wacko on the loose after so
many years. He's a classic case. I wonder if any Psychiatrits
trolling for new clients go to Conspiracy Con? Sounds like they
would have easy pickings with guys like him.

Maybe someone can clue me in. Why is it that in recent years,
when I look at contemporary photos of Richard Hoagland, his face
is more and more resembling the Viking picture of the Mars Face?
Either he or I have been looking at photos of the ancient face
too many times. What do you think Mac? <g>










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   Sep > Sep 18

                           Re: Resolution - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:24:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:35:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Resolution - Velez


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Resolution
 >Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 07:00:46 -0500

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Resolution
 >>Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:38:07 +0000

 >>I propose, and ask endorsement of, a two-part resolution
 >>concerning UFO Updates:

 >>(1) I will henceforth not post any message that attacks a person
 >>(i.e., ad hominem) as opposed to attacking or disagreeing with
 >>what that person says. Disagree with the argument (facts and
 >>logic), don't insult or demean the person who makes it.

Hello Alfred, hi All,

You wrote:

 >"Don't insult or demean" would be a fine ideal, forgetting that
 >folks need a good elbow now and again... and an efficacious
 >elbow can be, too blithely, censured as the insult and specious
 >detraction you allude to... Still, I aspire to be all good
 >elbow.

Speaking as one with 'chaffed elbows' :) there is an element of
'self-policing' involved that has real value and should not be
underestimated. I think Richard is referring to ad hominem
_personal_ attacks. I 'kind of' agree with both of your
expressed points of view. Although I can tell you from
experience that it is hard to balance between the two sometimes.
The more 'responsible' among us always try to err towards the
side of reason and objective analysis of person or situation
rather than giving in to impulse or anger. It's a fine line to
walk. Takes more than a little finesse most times.  ;)

 >...No cheap shots, or senseless points taken, and everybody
 >defends the implications of their convictions, view points, and
 >world views facilitating mutual advancement and individual
 >enlightenment. I'd facilitate the inclusive and deny the
 >exclusive to promote the conclusive...

You _do_ have a way with words Mr. Lehmberg. Jesse Jackson's own
speech writer has nothing on you in his play on words. ;) "Your
fustication causes consternation clear down to the very
foundation of our great nation!"

I love listening to Jackson. He's a poet, and he doesn't know
it! Southern preachers!  :)

 >I'd suggest an activist role. Even in this day and age.
 >Especially in this day and age! The sooner the better! Nothing
 >else seems to work, history abundantly demonstrates. If you
 >really want to know (really, really want to know!), you have to
 >rather stridently _insist_ on knowing. If you want
 >accountability, you have to demand accountability! If you want a
 >forthcoming leadership, you must accept no less!

Right on. But it does matter 'what' the "activist" is
contributing. There are "activists" that shouldn't climb out of
bed in the morning. Like Bin Laden, there are some "activists"
that we can all do without. A good man is a good man but as the
blues song says, "A good man is hard to find!"  :)

 >>Again, if someone posts something invoking the
 >>latter, it will be fair game to disagree with their relevance
 >>and to state specific reasons why you think so, short of calling
 >>the person who states them bad names.

 >On the other hand, we could just cut to the chase. Any
 >invocation of the latter is handily dealt with by the intrepid
 >Mr. Flynn. I don't think we need to worry our pretty little
 >heads about the mechanics of List officiation. A quality job has
 >been maintained for years. One couldn't _pay_ for a better, more
 >inclusive service. Hmmm.....

I agree. EBK maintains the best run ship on the waves of the
Internet. The man has proven time and again that he has fine
(and fair) judgement when it comes to moderating this List.

 >In as much as this is more about control of List contribution
 >(dumping me and Dr. Morty <g>.) than about civilized discourse
 >let me just say this:

Becoming a paranoiac in your old age Lehmberg? Who's trying to
"dump" you? Errol? Richard? I think you tipped just a little too
far over to the right with this one. I would fight hammer and
tong to keep you a part of this List. I've even been wrestling
with Mortellaro for the longest time to get him to 'sober up'
his contributions to the List. He's an "abductee" that causes us
more harm in terms of how we are perceived by the general
public, than good. He's a bright and sensitive man. If his
energy could be redirected he could be a formidable force and
a terrific representative on the side of the abductees. I
wouldn't want anybody with his potential to be thrown off the
List either. Why the Hell do you think I'm so hard on him and
put so much effort into him? For fun?

You are you. Nothing in Heaven or Hell will ever change that.
Personally I wouldn't alter a hair on your glorious head.
Mortellaro is a diamond in the rough. He just needs to "polish"
his stone. Actually if he stopped trying to be a cookie cutter
version of you and just concentrated on developing _his own_
style, the docca 'could be' great and make a valuable
contribution to the battle we are all engaged in.  But "get rid"
of _you_? Never. I'd quit the List in protest.

I think you've got a nitrogen bubble stuck in your brain
somewhere on this one Alfred. You need to decompress a little
maybe.  :)

 >We've a rough row to hoe. A capital opportunity has been
 >presented to a suspicious leadership poised to push all the
 >really important subjects to a distant back burner, if not
 >completely off the stove! The environment, social
 >responsibility, individual rights, free expression, and UFOs...
 >all are trivialized and dismissed to facilitate the likely
 >invented concerns regarding the antithesis of all those
 >things... Welcome back to the nineteenth century?

Sure, they 'could be' taking advantage of the situation in order
to advance their own agenda of "control." But to call it
"invented concerns" I think is taking it one step too far
Alfred. I don't think that Bush or any of those right wing
cowboys would wish something like this on our own people, just
so they can take advantage of it for their own political
purposes. After the fact yes, it's very possible. Before the
fact no, I would disagree with that. To have intelligence about
something like this in advance and then to allow it to happen
just for political purposes would make Bush as bad and a danger
to us, as Bin Laden himself. Maybe worse. I hope that's not the
case. If it turns out it is, we'll all just have to direct our
weapons at the White house first, and _then_ rid ourselves of
the 'other' vermin.

Together we stand, divided we fall.

If _you_ go,... I go!


Regards,

John Velez

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."








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   Sep > Sep 18

             Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Rutkowski

From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@Ms.UManitoba.CA>
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:47:14 CST
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:38:18 -0400
Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Rutkowski


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:03:01 EDT
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?

 >Ladies & Gentlemen: Presumably people in the US were still watching
 >the skies last week, when all civilian air traffic was grounded, perhaps
 >more so than usually. I wonder whether UFO sightings continued
 >unabated, and what kind of UFOs were sighted? Triangular, Daylights
 >Disks, or what?

In answer to your question, from my own perspective, UFO
sightings have continued. I was initially surprised to receive
reports after last Tuesday, however, one can also speculate that
fear of the unknown may foster an atmosphere where sightings of
unknown aircraft over the continent should be reported to
authorities. In fact, CIRVIS reports direct pilots and others to
make such reports of unidentified objects.

Anyway, I have received four such reports through official
channels since last week's incident. Nothing fancy, mind you,
just fireballs and the like. I would not be surprised if
sightings continued being reported.


Chris Rutkowski

Media Relations Coordinator
Public Affairs Department
University of Manitoba
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada  R3T 2N2
  voice:  (204) 474-9514
e-mail:  Chris_Rutkowski@umanitoba.ca








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   Sep > Sep 18

                       Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:05:33 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:42:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology


1. Enough people and organizations since 1947 have collected
sufficient data and documentation to present a hard evidenuary
case that a phenomena involving unknown type aerial vehicles
have been periodically observed and if presented in a court of
law would be sufficient to conclude it is a valid phenomenon.

2. Other than the above, everything else is absolute total
speculation up to this point in time. Nobody, as yet, has the
answer to this phenomena as to exactly what it is or to its
meaning.

3. Due to 1 and 2 above the scientific and academic fields have
defaulted in their responsibility to examine, without prejudice,
this phenomena as done with any other type of phenomena
scientifically studied or theorized.

Now, where do we go from here and how do we actually focus on
doing whatever it is we are supposed to be doing about it?

I consider myself a pretty decent researcher. Certainly not the
best or the brightest, but certainly not the dumbest either.
What started as a challenge of looking at this phenomena has,
over the the years, turned into a circus of the most absurd
kind. Suddenly I have to wade through crop circles, low level
hums, monuments on Mars, abduction, Nazi weaponry, clarivoyance,
voo-doo, crystals, invisible ships, flying men who look like
moths, fifteen zillion types of aliens, etc.

What the hell happened to real Ufology and just when did the
basics become a thing of the past? I must have missed the
transition somewhere along the way.


Wendy Connors









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   Sep > Sep 19

               Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:05:57 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:39:49 -0400
Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Young


 >Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:43:38 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:03:01 EDT
 >>Subject: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >>I wonder whether UFO sightings continued unabated, and what kind
 >>of UFOs were sighted? Triangular, Daylights Disks, or what?

<snip>

 >Last week I posted two informal reports to the members of the
 >AIC e-mail List (I also shared it with Don Ledger and EBK)
 >about two _daylight_ 'white disc' sightings that I had on two
 >consecutive days. Both sightings were of a 'clearly defined' and
 >'distinct' solitary white disc.

  <snip>

 >One disc (sighting on second day) was coming from the direction
 >of Manhattan. At first I thought, "maybe they turned loose a
 >weather balloon to check wind direction and it's blowing in
 >towards me." But the object stopped _dead_ in its tracks for
 >several seconds.

Or might have been moving directly toward you, then

 >it started moving again in a slightly altered flight path toward me.
 >I watched the clearly visible
 >white disc, which looked more like it was 'glowing' from within
 >- a soft light; not as harsh to the eye as reflected light; as
 >it flew overhead slightly to the North of my position, it
 >stopped dead in its tracks again for another few seconds, and it
 >then disappeared over the rooftops as it moved off towards the
 >East/Atlantic ocean. The whole "sighting" lasted two to three
 >minutes, tops.

Could have been a balloon. What was the date and time? The wind
data is available from:

http://weather.unisys.com/archive/eta_init/0109/


Clear skies,

Bob Young








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               Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:16:30 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:50:37 -0400
Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Young


 >From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@Ms.UManitoba.CA>
 >Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:47:14 CST

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:03:01 EDT
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?

<snip>

 >>I wonder whether UFO sightings continued unabated, and
 >>what kind of UFOs were sighted? Triangular, Daylights Disks,
 >>or what?

 >I have received four such reports through official
 >channels since last week's incident. Nothing fancy, mind you,
 >just fireballs and the like. I would not be surprised if
 >sightings continued being reported.

Hi, Chris:

Thanks for the info. Were all flights grounded over Canada, too?


Clear skies,

Bob Young








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                    CCCRN News: Formation Report 2001 #17

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 01:35:40 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:52:09 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Formation Report 2001 #17



CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

September 18, 2001

_____________________________


Preliminary Report - September 18, 2001

Red Deer, Alberta
September 16, 2001


Report received today from Mary-Ann Barr of the Red Deer
Advocate newspaper of a large new crop formation found on
September 16 near Red Deer, Alberta.

Seven circles, like a 'Star of David'. Large circle in center is
about 105 feet across, smaller circles are about 38 feet each,
connected by crossing pathways. The whole formation is around
300 feet or so in size, in wheat. Farmer found it Sunday night
(16th). No tracks seen going to formation, and seed heads on
plants are all intact, with no visible damage and neat, precise
lay of the crops. All lay is counterclockwise. It has also been
shown on RDTV News from Red Deer, with aerial video footage.

Further details when available.

This is the seventeenth formation reported for 2001.

____________________________


The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which investigates the crop circle
phenomenon and other possibly related phenomena in Canada,
creating a liason between researchers, farmers, the public, the
media and scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma

CCCRN News is the e-news service of CCCRN, providing the latest
news, reports and updates, sent free to your e-mail.

To subscribe to CCCRN News, send a blank e-mail to:
cccrnnews-subscribe@topica.com

To unsubscribe from CCCRN News, send a blank e-mail to:
cccrnnews-unsubscribe@topica.com

CCCRN News Archive:
http://www.topica.com/lists/cccrnnews/read


CANADIAN CROP CIRCLE RESEARCH NETWORK

Main Office:
202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

Provincial Branches:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/contacts.html

Circle Phenomena in Canada 2001:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/circlescanada01.html

Fields of Dreams Webcast Radio Show:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/fieldsofdreams.html


� Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2001








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                 Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:08:54 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:55:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Maccabee


 >From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >To: <UFOUpdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:05:33 -0600


 >1. Enough people and organizations since 1947 have collected
 >sufficient data and documentation to present a hard evidenuary
 >case that a phenomena involving unknown type aerial vehicles
 >have been periodically observed and if presented in a court of
 >law would be sufficient to conclude it is a valid phenomenon.

 >2. Other than the above, everything else is absolute total
 >speculation up to this point in time. Nobody, as yet, has the
 >answer to this phenomena as to exactly what it is or to its
 >meaning.

 >3. Due to 1 and 2 above the scientific and academic fields have
 >defaulted in their responsibility to examine, without prejudice,
 >this phenomena as done with any other type of phenomena
 >scientifically studied or theorized.

 >Now, where do we go from here and how do we actually focus on
 >doing whatever it is we are supposed to be doing about it?>

 >I consider myself a pretty decent researcher. Certainly not the
 >best or the brightest, but certainly not the dumbest either.
 >What started as a challenge of looking at this phenomena has,
 >over the the years, turned into a circus of the most absurd
 >kind. Suddenly I have to wade through crop circles, low level
 >hums, monuments on Mars, abduction, Nazi weaponry, clarivoyance,
 >voo-doo, crystals, invisible ships, flying men who look like
 >moths, fifteen zillion types of aliens, etc.

 >What the hell happened to real Ufology and just when did the
 >basics become a thing of the past? I must have missed the
 >transition somewhere along the way.

A little frustrated, are you?

Just think of the "richness" of the subject now. No longer just
"plain vanilla" UFO sightings, of which we have zillions, and
plain old contactee stories.

If they weren't enough to make you crazy by themselves you now
have abductions, mutilations, landing traces, movies, videos,
rods, agriglyphs, orbs, space brothers, entities, megalithic
constructions (not built by humans, of course), etc., etc.

The solution?

When the ice cream gets too rich, like Rainforest Crunch or
Chunky Monkey, or Cherries Garcia, I just go back to plain old
vanilla to reassure myself that there is "something to believe
in."








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              Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:08:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:00:58 -0400
Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Maccabee


 >Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:43:38 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:03:01 EDT
 >>Subject: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Ladies & Gentlemen:

 >>Presumably people in the US were still watching the skies last
 >>week, when all civilian air traffic was grounded, perhaps more
 >>so than usually.

 >>I wonder whether UFO sightings continued unabated, and what kind
 >>of UFOs were sighted? Triangular, Daylights Disks, or what?

<snip>

 >It was just bad timing Bob, and might have been, mistakenly,
 >perceived as being in bad taste to interject UFOs into an
 >already _painful_ situation.

 >The 'short version' is; Yes Bob, I saw _two_ UFOs last week in
 >the skies over New York. And considering the circumstances; as
 >John Lennon said in his famous tune: "There are UFOs over New
 >York, and I ain't too surpriiiiised,..." ;)

Thanks for the message, John. Last Tuesday evening I posted a
message that for the first time in the lifetimes of most people
on this (or any) List, the skies would be barren of aircraft
(save the military). I suggested people go out and look. Same
thing last Wednesday night. I did look myself, but saw
nothing... and it was strange... no aircraft.

So now we know there were at least a couple of sightings.








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                          Secrecy News -- 09/18/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@igc.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:47:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:19:53 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 09/18/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
September 18, 2001

**      NATIONAL EMERGENCY DECLARED
**      SSCI REPORT ON INTEL AUTHORIZATION
**      IN PURSUIT OF MYSTICAL RECONCILIATION


NATIONAL EMERGENCY DECLARED

On September 14, President Bush declared that "A national
emergency exists by reason of the terrorist attacks at the World
Trade Center, New York, and the Pentagon, and the continuing and
immediate threat of further attacks on the United States."

Declaration of a national emergency entitles the President to
invoke a number of statutes granting him extraordinary
authorities. The nine particular statutes invoked by President
Bush last Friday give him increased flexibility in constituting
the size and distribution of U.S. armed forces.

The text of President Bush's declaration, which was published in
the Federal Register today, and an accompanying executive order
implementing the new authorities are posted here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2001/09/fr091801.html


SSCI REPORT ON INTEL AUTHORIZATION

Even before last week's terrorist attack, President Bush had
requested a "substantial increase" in intelligence spending for
the coming year. With the supplemental billions now being
allocated by Congress, the intelligence budget for fiscal year
2002 may be the largest in history.

Some of the general contours of the proposed intelligence budget
are evident from the report of the Senate Select Committee on
Intelligence (SSCI) on the Intelligence Authorization Act for FY
2002, which was filed last Friday and published today.

The Committee identifies its top priorities as follows: "(1)
revitalizing the National Security Agency; (2) correcting
deficiencies in human intelligence; (3) addressing the imbalance
between intelligence collection and analysis; and (4) rebuilding
a robust research and development program."

The report contains a number of asides on covert action
reporting, Congress as an intelligence consumer, polygraph
testing, language translation resources and other important
topics that will be of interest to concerned citizens.

The new SSCI Report on the Intelligence Authorization Act for FY
2002 (Senate Report 107-63) is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2001_rpt/srep107-63.html


IN PURSUIT OF MYSTICAL RECONCILIATION

In a week of horrors apparently originating in the Middle East,
it was heartening to see American leaders reaching out to Arab
American and Islamic leaders and assuring them that "they" are
"us." Senior officials from the President on down went out of
their way to acknowledge the vulnerability of these minority
communities and to offer them the increased security that was
regrettably necessary following recent attacks on mosques and
community centers.

This outreach was not only the proper and decent thing to do, it
is also part of the ongoing process of clarifying who the enemy
is and is not. If there is to be a war against terrorism it
must be fought not only by attacking those who would kill
innocent civilians but by building bridges to those who oppose
terrorist actions and by strengthening their hand.

The notion that religion could be a basis for such
bridge-building, rather than an obstacle to it, seems
improbable. But that is the starting point of Yossi Klein
Halevi's new book "At the Entrance to the Garden of Eden"
(Harper Collins, 2001).

Halevi, an orthodox Israeli Jew, set out to meet his Islamic and
Christian Palestinian neighbors and to engage them not on a
political plane but as fellow spiritual seekers. (The uncertain
premise here seems to be that there is a common spiritual
reality that is the subject of all true religion, along the
lines of what Aldous Huxley called the "perennial philosophy.")

 From every obvious point of view this is a preposterous
undertaking. But Halevi shows wonderful courage, sensitivity
and self-critical awareness in his pursuit. And with some
effort his quest finds a response among certain Sufi sheykhs and
Christian monastics in the West Bank.

Arab-Israeli reconciliation through mystical union is not an
approach that is likely to be tried by U.S. mediators at Camp
David.

But the capacity to conceive and pursue an alternative vision
for transcending inherited conflicts is much in demand.

More information about Halevi's "At the Entrance to the Garden
of Eden" may be found here:

http://www.harpercollins.com/catalog/book_xml.asp?isbn=068816908
2


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the Federation
of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@fas.org> with this
command in the body of the message:
  subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]


Secrecy News is archived at:
  http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web: www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691








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                             www.mactonnies.com

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:28:29 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:09:45 -0400
Subject: www.mactonnies.com


Hi,

This is just a note that my website, presently reached at:

http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html

will be upgraded to its own domain name within the next few
days, www.mactonnies.com.

Content will remain mostly the same as the previous incarnation,
with the benefit that the server will be more responsive and
I'll have more memory space to work with.

Until the transition is complete, the original Geocities site
will remain operational.

Thanks!








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                  Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Cammack

From: Diana Cammack <cammack@eomw.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:34:07 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:14:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Cammack


 >From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >To: <UFOUpdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:05:33 -0600

<snip>

 >What started as a challenge of looking at this phenomena has,
 >over the the years, turned into a circus of the most absurd
 >kind. Suddenly I have to wade through crop circles, low level
 >hums, monuments on Mars, abduction, Nazi weaponry, clarivoyance,
 >voo-doo, crystals, invisible ships, flying men who look like
 >moths, fifteen zillion types of aliens, etc.

 >What the hell happened to real Ufology and just when did the
 >basics become a thing of the past? I must have missed the
 >transition somewhere along the way.

 >Wendy Connors


Wendy,

I am not trying to be provocative, but what is 'real
Ufology' and what are the 'basics'? We can catalogue sightings
till the cows-come-home, but all we seem to get is more of the
same... triangles, disks, hovering, landing, etc. and perhaps
if lucky a few 'traces' but hardly anything more.

Collecting data in a passive manner - and how can it be anything
else unless you can be proactive and set up your own experiement
(e.g., do as CSETI and Greer used to do regularly, 'vector in'
UFOs) - is not very rewarding. Unless you can open up a new
field of cataloguing (by which I mean collecting data, collating
it, comparing it with other data, etc) - e.g., on abductions,
monuments, inplants, hums, etc. - there seems to be little to do
in Ufology.

The alternative is to extrapolate - theorise about what it all
means and that is what alot of 'researchers' seem to be doing...
little research, lots of theorising! But seriously, what more
can one do when its impossible to do much more than collect and
collate? There must be some other fields of science where this
happens... where experiments and proactive
changing-conditions-to-see-what-happens-next are impossible -
though I cannot think of one now...


Diana
Malawi









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                  Re: Undisputed Facts in Ufology - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 06:26:28 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:18:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts in Ufology - Connors


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:08:54 -0400
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:55:01 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology

 >A little frustrated, are you?

 >Just think of the "richness" of the subject now. No longer just
 >"plain vanilla" UFO sightings, of which we have zillions, and
 >plain old contactee stories.

 >If they weren't enough to make you crazy by themselves you now
 >have abductions, mutilations, landing traces, movies, videos,
 >rods, agriglyphs, orbs, space brothers, entities, megalithic
 >constructions (not built by humans, of course), etc., etc.

 >The solution?

 >When the ice cream gets too rich, like Rainforest Crunch or
 >Chunky Monkey, or Cherries Garcia, I just go back to plain old
 >vanilla to reassure myself that there is "something to believe
 >in."

Ah, but I too return to "plain vanilla." More so than ever
because that is where the real real cream is located. <G> New
things always can be added to the old. To Wit:

Chile-Whitted Incident. There were real people behind the
documentation that tells much more than the written report. As
an example consider the following:

1. Chiles led the airline industry in being the first of their
pilots to sport a mustache and other pilots began to follow
suit. 2. Born in Tennessee, Chiles father was a school principle
and a Baptist minister.

3. Chiles attended the U of Tenn and studied pre-med. He took
his training in the AAC at both Randolph and Kelly Fields, TX.
He also served at Hamiliton Field, CA.

4. Chiles became an EAL pilot at the age of 22 and was based in
Atlanta. (Ihave a photo of him taken in 1940 and a couple while
he was in the Army Air Corps). Two years later he was recalled
to active duty and flew the "Hump."

5. He became Squadron Commander and later Deputy Commanding
Officer of at Hensley Field and then was commanding officer at
Ascension Island and rose to the rank of Lt. Col. He flew just
about everything up to and including P-38s. While commanding
Wideawake field at Ascension Island, he used his own money to
bring Christmas trees from the U.S. so his men could have a
better Christmas on an island that had nothing and forbid
alcohol. Yep, although he was not a drinker, he allowed his men
to do so, but monitored it so that it did not get out of
control.

6. His wife's name was Eleanor and they were married 3 weeks to
the day before the attack on Pearl Harbor. HIs last duty
assignment was in Natal, Brazil.

7. Following his EAL career they moved back to Tennessee, built
there home out of an old church and raised cattle.

8. He made a movie with Gene Autry.

9. Shipe Chiles was a highly admired man for his expertise and
leadership, both in the military and at Eastern Airlines. He was
considered among his colleagues as the "Best of the Best." He
was not flamboyant, but very friendly, compassionate, but tough
about insuring everything he did was correct and on target.

This is the "Cream" of the Vanilla. It gives new insight into
the information he gave to T-2 about their sighting that isn't
found in the case file. At a time we now have umpteen claims of
various alien types, there is yet no evidence that these beings
are extraterrestrial or otherwise. We just don't know and
speculation without proper groundwork leads to chaos within the
field of Ufology. At this time the focus should not be on wild
speculation or demands to uncover nefarious conspiracies, but
rather review and to add to that which was missed, then apply
this to what is currently within the various off-shoots of the
main point of study - Ufology.

It is not frustration I am feeling, but anger that so many
dingbats, woo-woo's, armchair pundits, doofus's, guru's and the
like spoiling the aroma of what was and should still be a noble
pursuit in understanding something so wonderfully unique with
possible far-reaching consequences for humanity.

If you are interested in Crop Circle study, etc., that is
absolutely great, but until you can definitively tie it to the
basics of Ufology, it should not stand as a part of Ufology at
this time. Do not misunderstand me, here. I am also interested
in the new phenomena of "Rods" and a few other areas, but until
I can connect them to the basic field of Ufology, I consider
them seperate undertakings.

To many herbs and spices make the soup unpalatable and a waste.


Wendy Connors








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               Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:29:21 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:20:32 -0400
Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Ledger


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:16:30 EDT
 >Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@Ms.UManitoba.CA>
 >>Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:47:14 CST

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:03:01 EDT
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?

 ><snip>

 >>>I wonder whether UFO sightings continued unabated, and
 >>>what kind of UFOs were sighted? Triangular, Daylights Disks,
 >>>or what?

 >>I have received four such reports through official
 >>channels since last week's incident. Nothing fancy, mind you,
 >>just fireballs and the like. I would not be surprised if
 >>sightings continued being reported.

 >Hi, Chris:

 >Thanks for the info. Were all flights grounded over Canada, too?


Yes, to the last. The Canadian Government grounded all
flights - except military - until the airspace opened in the
States. Right now private and recreational VFR aircraft are
grounded but that restriction will likely lift shortly.

Best,

Don Ledger









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                   Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:35:24 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:22:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Young


 >Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:08:54 -0400
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >>To: <UFOUpdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:05:33 -0600

<snip>

 >>What the hell happened to real Ufology and just when did the
 >>basics become a thing of the past? I must have missed the
 >>transition somewhere along the way.

<snip>

 >A little frustrated, are you?

 >Just think of the "richness" of the subject now. No longer just
 >"plain vanilla" UFO sightings, of which we have zillions, and
 >plain old contactee stories.

 >If they weren't enough to make you crazy by themselves you now
 >have abductions, mutilations, landing traces, movies, videos,
 >rods, agriglyphs, orbs, space brothers, entities, megalithic
 >constructions (not built by humans, of course), etc., etc.

 >The solution?

 >When the ice cream gets too rich, like Rainforest Crunch or
 >Chunky Monkey, or Cherries Garcia, I just go back to plain old
 >vanilla to reassure myself that there is "something to believe
 >in."


Wendy, The Bruce and The List:

So, finally, we all get to agree about something. Or, maybe, at
least we three may agree on something, after all.

Please see my recent post re UFOs During Grounding:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2001/sep/m18-006.shtml

During WWII one of the most important discoveries about stars
was made by Walter Baade, a German immigrant who wasn't allowed
to do war work and who was observing with the Mt. Wilson
telescopes near light polluted Los Angeles.

The city was under war-time blackout, allowing spectroscopic
observations to be made of individual stars in nearby galaxies.
He discovered the "two populations" of stars, young, hydrogen
and helium rich stars in the spiral arms of galaxies, and older
"metal-rich" stars in the galactic center. This helped nail down
a theory of star formation and evolution.

The recent grounding of nearly all airplanes in the US (and
Canada?) provides a similar opportunity to take a look at the
vanilla ice cream sightings. Were they different?

The problem, I suspect, is getting a representative sample.


Clear skies,

Bob Young







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                Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Chris Kelly

From: Chris Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 23:42:52 +1000
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:24:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Chris Kelly


 >From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >To: <UFOUpdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:05:33 -0600


 >1. Enough people and organizations since 1947 have collected
 >sufficient data and documentation to present a hard evidenuary
 >case that a phenomena involving unknown type aerial vehicles
 >have been periodically observed and if presented in a court of
 >law would be sufficient to conclude it is a valid phenomenon.

Nice observation here Wendy and true, if the evidence we have
for this phenomena was for use in a murder case. It would be
enough to convict someone. Yet it is interesting to note that a
court of law recognises God even though the proof of God is much
the same kind of evidence as what we have for Aliens/UFO's and
in some cases there is even less proof.

 >2. Other than the above, everything else is absolute total
 >speculation up to this point in time. Nobody, as yet, has the
 >answer to this phenomena as to exactly what it is or to its
 >meaning.

Nobody that would be considered as a creditable source,
which has me asking myself time and again, If an eyewitness isn't
a creditable source then  'What is a creditable source.'


 >3. Due to 1 and 2 above the scientific and academic fields have
 >defaulted in their responsibility to examine, without prejudice,
 >this phenomena as done with any other type of phenomena
 >scientifically studied or theorized.

Boy haven't they Wendy, these people really droped the ball big
time.

 >Now, where do we go from here and how do we actually focus on
 >doing whatever it is we are supposed to be doing about it?

I for one would really like just some of the money that is spent
on weapons Research ECT reallocated to be used to settle this
question once and for all, if only this was possible. No one at
NASA can tell me that just one shuttle mission to answer this
question wouldn't get results. Hell we here would even take up a
collection to pay for the damn mission. So long as the results
were a live feed back to UFO researchers that is.

 >I consider myself a pretty decent researcher. Certainly not the
 >best or the brightest, but certainly not the dumbest either.
 >What started as a challenge of looking at this phenomena has,
 >over the the years, turned into a circus of the most absurd
 >kind. Suddenly I have to wade through crop circles, low level
 >hums, monuments on Mars, abduction, Nazi weaponry, clarivoyance,
 >voo-doo, crystals, invisible ships, flying men who look like
 >moths, fifteen zillion types of aliens, etc.

 >What the hell happened to real Ufology and just when did the
 >basics become a thing of the past? I must have missed the
 >transition somewhere along the way.

In a word Wendy, MONEY. Many people, as you know, have found
it pays well to write and talk about such a phenomena and the strangest
thing is, people seem to like fantasy better than the truth. Tell the world
the truth and your a fool, tell the world a good story and your a star.

I haven't had many real-life encounters, but the ones I have had and
told others about, wasn't believed. So I told a good story along the
same lines as my real-life encounters, just to see what would happen
and it was believed, 'go figure'.

This is why, I guess, Ufology has gotten to the point it is today, it
pays better to make up fantasies and people will believe it. I don't
understand the psychology behind this, but it seems to be true from
what I have observed.

I like your way of thinking Wendy Connors, the "fifteen zillion
types of aliens" comment really cracked me up and is so very true.

Tophar.









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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 19

               Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:08:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:26:58 -0400
Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Velez


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:05:57 EDT
 >Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:43:38 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:03:01 EDT
 >>>Subject: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>>I wonder whether UFO sightings continued unabated, and what kind
 >>>of UFOs were sighted? Triangular, Daylights Disks, or what?

 ><snip>

 >>Last week I posted two informal reports to the members of the
 >>AIC e-mail List (I also shared it with Don Ledger and EBK)
 >>about two _daylight_ 'white disc' sightings that I had on two
 >>consecutive days. Both sightings were of a 'clearly defined' and
 >>'distinct' solitary white disc.

 ><snip>

 >>One disc (sighting on second day) was coming from the direction
 >>of Manhattan. At first I thought, "maybe they turned loose a
 >>weather balloon to check wind direction and it's blowing in
 >>towards me." But the object stopped _dead_ in its tracks for
 >>several seconds.

Hi Bob,

The sightings happened on the 13th, Thursday, about 12:30 PM)
and again on Friday the 14th at about 2:30 PM. The sighting I am
referring to here is the one on Friday. The one that was coming
towards me from Manhattan.

 >Or might have been moving directly toward you, then

I don't think so Bob. In order to create the "illusion" that it
had "stopped" it would have had to change its angle of approach
towards the ground in my exact/direct 'line of sight'. There was
no change in altitude (that I could detect) during the sighting.
Whatever it was, balloon or disc, it just stopped dead for about
4-5 seconds. Twice during the sighting. The second time it
"stopped it was much closer to my position and moving (almost)
directly _across_ my line of sight. It _stopped._ It didn't
appear to suddenly start moving in a downward angle directly
_at_ me. It simply stopped along its own flight path and then
continued on.

 >>it started moving again in a slightly altered flight path toward me.
 >>I watched the clearly visible
 >>white disc, which looked more like it was 'glowing' from within
 >>- a soft light; not as harsh to the eye as reflected light; as
 >>it flew overhead slightly to the North of my position, it
 >>stopped dead in its tracks again for another few seconds, and it
 >>then disappeared over the rooftops as it moved off towards the
 >>East/Atlantic ocean. The whole "sighting" lasted two to three
 >>minutes, tops.

 >Could have been a balloon. What was the date and time? The wind
 >data is available from:

 >http://weather.unisys.com/archive/eta_init/0109/

Dates and times above.

Wind data (wind barb) indicates that on the 13th the prevailing
winds were coming from offshore (roughly SE to NW) and on the
14th from (roughly NE to SW.) Double check me Bob. I'm not a
meteorologist and reading those weather maps makes my eyes go
crossed. I "think" I read the wind data correctly though. What
I'm not sure of is; what altitude do those wind readings
represent? Both objects couldn't have been higher than a
thousand feet or so. But then it's hard to determine altitude
not knowing the size of the object(s) I was observing. Check out
the maps for me and confirm or correct my reading of the wind
data for those two days please.

I've been an amateur astronomer and skywatcher for 30 years Bob.
I know my way around 'up there.' I don't think these objects
were balloons. Or I wouldn't have reported them as "UFOs." ;)

Visually, both objects presented as; hard edged, (well defined
shape) glowing, white discs.


Thanks,

John


            A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
            www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                 johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
   "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 19

                          Re: Resolution - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:29:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:33:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Resolution - Lehmberg


 >Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:24:41 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Resolution

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Resolution
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 07:00:46 -0500

 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Resolution
 >>>Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:38:07 +0000

 >>>I propose, and ask endorsement of, a two-part resolution
 >>>concerning UFO Updates:

 >>>(1) I will henceforth not post any message that attacks a person
 >>>(i.e., ad hominem) as opposed to attacking or disagreeing with
 >>>what that person says. Disagree with the argument (facts and
 >>>logic), don't insult or demean the person who makes it.

 >Hello Alfred, hi All,

 >You wrote:

 >>"Don't insult or demean" would be a fine ideal, forgetting that
 >>folks need a good elbow now and again... and an efficacious
 >>elbow can be, too blithely, censured as the insult and specious
 >>detraction you allude to... Still, I aspire to be all good
 >>elbow.

 >Speaking as one with 'chaffed elbows' :)

...And not surprised given your penchant to swing 'em around
like Darth Maul's double barreled light sabre, occasionally!
<g>.

 >there is an element of
 >'self-policing' involved that has real value and should not be
 >underestimated. I think Richard is referring to ad hominem
 >_personal_ attacks. I 'kind of' agree with both of your
 >expressed points of view.

Aw, c'mon Johnny me lad, in for a penny, in for a pound! Where
can you parse a substantial 'kind of'? I can feel you agree with
me more than flaccid 'kind of'.

 >Although I can tell you from
 >experience that it is hard to balance between the two sometimes.
 >The more 'responsible' among us always try to err towards the
 >side of reason and objective analysis of person or situation
 >rather than giving in to impulse or anger.

Impulse and Anger are ready substitutions for rational thinking,
for sure ...but then others of us are confused by conflicting
definitions of what responsibility might actually mean to the
people applying it... for some I'm sure it's another sociopathic
tool, which may wander a little too far afield... but where is
"reason and objective analysis" found in a manipulated
mainstream so obstinately disrespecting you. You personally!
Dick too.

You and I? We're a bubble of arguable rationality in a world
that laughes at _you_ on national television, and keeps _me_
from a living I was born to do. Activism seems appropriate given
the attention we receive from our institutions, the betrayal
we've suffered from them, and the disrespect we endure at their
convenience.

 >It's a fine line to
 >walk. Takes more than a little finesse most times. ;)

You walk it exceptionally well, John.

 >>...No cheap shots, or senseless points taken, and everybody
 >>defends the implications of their convictions, view points, and
 >>world views facilitating mutual advancement and individual
 >>enlightenment. I'd facilitate the inclusive and deny the
 >>exclusive to promote the conclusive...

 >You _do_ have a way with words Mr. Lehmberg. Jesse Jackson's own
 >speech writer has nothing on you in his play on words. ;)

That's a little dismissive isn't it, John? Comparisons with
alleged inflated and largely discredited gas bags... I've always
found them a trifle wounding. ...but maybe that's just me.

 >"Your
 >fustication causes consternation clear down to the very
 >foundation of our great nation!"

Well -- I think the good Reverend Jackson's 'speech writer' was
trying to reach the largest audience with a difficult message of
abstract intangibles, and did have considerable success reaching
real people with a positive message, whatever one might think
that message was. He was kind of key to a lot of disenfranchised
people beginning to believe in themselves for the first time...
and if that's true... then it doesn't really matter that he'd
occasionally break into a little song and rhyme his words
annoyingly, does it?

 >I love listening to Jackson. He's a poet, and he doesn't know
 >it! Southern preachers! :)

Oh I think he knows it. And actually? I find Jackson as tiresome
as some people find me. <g>. I take the lesson in that.

 >>I'd suggest an activist role. Even in this day and age.
 >>Especially in this day and age! The sooner the better! Nothing
 >>else seems to work, history abundantly demonstrates. If you
 >>really want to know (really, really want to know!), you have to
 >>rather stridently _insist_ on knowing. If you want
 >>accountability, you have to demand accountability! If you want a
 >>forthcoming leadership, you must accept no less!

 >Right on. But it does matter 'what' the "activist" is
 >contributing.

That's a dangerous call to make, and should have some pretty
wide parameters when it occurs. I don't really see anybody
calling it fair right now, except perhaps Mr. Flynn.

 >There are "activists" that shouldn't climb out of
 >bed in the morning. Like Bin Laden, there are some "activists"
 >that we can all do without. A good man is a good man but as the
 >blues song says, "A good man is hard to find!" :)

...And isn't _that_ ironic given research that indicates that
nine out of ten folks are _good_ men _easy_ to find. This is a
comparison between the number of concerned sociophiles and the
number of more expansively defined sociopaths... or psychopaths,
preying on them. I've several conclusive citations indicating
that that sociopath will turn up where it is least expected. In
loved ones, objects of unquestioned trust... teachers,
preachers, doctors, cops, politicians, whole governments...
sociopaths grind self serving axes. They empire build. They
presuppose intolerance.

 >>>Again, if someone posts something invoking the
 >>>latter, it will be fair game to disagree with their relevance
 >>>and to state specific reasons why you think so, short of calling
 >>>the person who states them bad names.

 >>On the other hand, we could just cut to the chase. Any
 >>invocation of the latter is handily dealt with by the intrepid
 >>Mr. Flynn. I don't think we need to worry our pretty little
 >>heads about the mechanics of List officiation. A quality job has
 >>been maintained for years. One couldn't _pay_ for a better, more
 >>inclusive service. Hmmm.....

 >I agree. EBK maintains the best run ship on the waves of the
 >Internet. The man has proven time and again that he has fine
 >(and fair) judgement when it comes to moderating this List.

_I'm_ not saying any more nice stuff about Mr. Flynn until his
check clears!

 >>In as much as this is more about control of List contribution
 >>(dumping me and Dr. Morty <g>.) than about civilized discourse
 >>let me just say this:

 >Becoming a paranoiac in your old age Lehmberg?

Where there is threat there is no paranoia, John. That joking
comment was motivated by scolding E-mails to me from people
otherwise sullenly insouciant. What can I tell you?

It doesn't matter to me as much as it should, though. I'm
hopefully somewhere near the bottom of my social rejection and
arbitrary punishment for insisting that I have a right to free
expression on the net and at the local level, and for
identifying activism as an honorable path to more satisfying
aggregate enlightenment. To do anything else just seems to
continue past mistakes, exacerbates the general futility, and
executes too many backward steps too late in a seemingly
discarded, discredited, and lately denounced life.

 >Who's trying to
 >"dump" you? Errol? Richard? I think you tipped just a little too
 >far over to the right with this one.

Well - certainly not Mr. Flynn, a man renowned for a loyalty to
his band of merry, merry men, but who, if asked, might indicate
a higher than usual rate in regard to me and the generation of
just such a demand... though I don't know. I haven't asked him
because I might find out that it's true and feel compelled to
redact myself just to spare Errol's feelings. I can only guess
given the kind of mail that _I_ receive. Anonymous mail,
usually. I never said these critics had any courage. Regardless,
I implied a joke that was only funny because it might contain a
grain of truth, small or large. And I lean left, very _very_
seldom to the right. <g>.

 >I would fight hammer and
 >tong to keep you a part of this List. I've even been wrestling
 >with Mortellaro for the longest time to get him to 'sober up'
 >his contributions to the List.

I think Mortellaro's contributions to this List give it more
relevance, immediacy, and humanity than might otherwise be found
in the alternative collection of noodlers and propeller heads
that the ufologically parochial might prefer. That was the
provenance of this list as I recall ( exclusively noodlers and
propeller heads), and our kind facilitator, our founding father
(if you will) saw fit to include the *diverse* to freshen up an
obviously stagnant gene pool... not to put too fine a point on
it.

 >He's an "abductee" that causes us
 >more harm in terms of how we are perceived by the general
 >public, than good.

That's one man's opinion. Others, myself included, might see a
human face on a concept that is reviled, detested, and avoided
by a sneering mainstream not fit to shine his well abused shoes.
He's _one_ of the reasons that I tend to believe _you_, John.

Moreover, the general public is _programmed_ by the leadership
to reject a positive perception of your well documented plight
and there is no _amount_ of you and Dick Hall seriously sticking
to the rational and the scientifically straight and narrow that
will provide the credit and ufological resolution we all
deserve. Your science, rationality, and good faith is a more
than sturdy spear, but the scientific mainstream renders it
without a *point* to allow it to penetrate. Activism is (was?)
that point.

 >He's a bright and sensitive man.

That's enough...!

 >If his
 >energy could be redirected he could be a formidable force and
 >a terrific representative on the side of the abductees. I
 >wouldn't want anybody with his potential to be thrown off the
 >List either. Why the Hell do you think I'm so hard on him and
 >put so much effort into him? For fun?

...I can only wonder how _he_ interpreted what we all find out
now was only tough love...

 >You are you. Nothing in Heaven or Hell will ever change that.
 >Personally I wouldn't alter a hair on your glorious head.

And I appreciate that vote of confidence, knowing that together
we _can_ be greater than the sum of our parts.

 >Mortellaro is a diamond in the rough. He just needs to "polish"
 >his stone. Actually if he stopped trying to be a cookie cutter
 >version of you and just concentrated on developing _his own_
 >style the docca 'could be' great and make a valuable,
 >contribution to the battle we are all engaged in.

I don't think that's accurate, appropriate, or fair. He
demonstrates above average polish to me and people I respect
agree that he is anything but rough. Much more traditional and
reactionary than I, he is his own man. I'm sure you didn't mean
this the way it sounded. If so, that love's a mite too tough.

 >But "get rid"
 >of _you_? Never. I'd quit the List in protest.

Forgetting for a moment that real betrayal takes many forms, I
remain once bitten, twice shy. I've been blown off bigger lists
for less valid reasons. I just have a low tolerance for wet pant
legs, and I guess I am genetically compelled to bang gums
together when the stars are right... It's gotten me in a fair
amount of trouble, but the rewarded alternative was unendurable.
I appreciate the declaration, John.

 >I think you've got a nitrogen bubble stuck in your brain
 >somewhere on this one Alfred. You need to decompress a little
 >maybe. :)

Or go back down... it's more real down there anyway. <g>.

 >>We've a rough row to hoe. A capital opportunity has been
 >>presented to a suspicious leadership poised to push all the
 >>really important subjects to a distant back burner, if not
 >>completely off the stove! The environment, social
 >>responsibility, individual rights, free expression, and UFOs...
 >>all are trivialized and dismissed to facilitate the likely
 >>invented concerns regarding the antithesis of all those
 >>things... Welcome back to the nineteenth century?

 >Sure, they 'could be' taking advantage of the situation in order
 >to advance their own agenda of "control." But to call it
 >"invented concerns" I think is taking it one step too far
 >Alfred.

Jeez John, you _know_ we created Ladin and Saddam out of whole
cloth to justify short sighted political ends. "Dubya" just
called for a "Crusade"... perhaps not so ignorant of how
'charged' that busy little word might be to a sixth of the
population of the world! Christ, what a ma-roon!

Full disclosure was _never_ in the interest of the coveted
status quo and we can count on the imperatives of the ones
wishing for a rabid police state to make oppressive hay while
this suspicious sun shines. I think it likely that all sorts of
specious concerns are likely to be *invented*, John. UFOs are
off the stove. Too frivolous. The environment is forgotten.
Can't afford it and a war effort, too! Individual rights will
become as rare as the snail darter, and we'll all line up from
the cars we live in to beg for our ration of soylant green.

 >I don't think that Bush or any of those right wing
 >cowboys would wish something like this on our own people, just
 >so they can take advantage of it for their own political
 >purposes.

My study of history won't reassure me of that, but I would
prefer that you are right.

 >After the fact yes, it's very possible.

Likely.

 >Before the
 >fact no, I would disagree with that.

...<sigh>

 >To have intelligence about
 >something like this in advance and then to allow it to happen
 >just for political purposes would make Bush as bad and a danger
 >to us, as Bin Laden himself.

That's not so hard to imagine, John, and I'm glad I didn't have
to be the one to say it.

 >Maybe worse. I hope that's not the
 >case. If it turns out it is, we'll all just have to direct our
 >weapons at the White house first, and _then_ rid ourselves of
 >the 'other' vermin.

...we're just treading water, hoss.

 >Together we stand, divided we fall.

What a glutton does is gluttony. What does God do if God is an
iron? Give up? God is irony!

 >If _you_ go,... I go!

With the _full_ awareness and understanding that nobody is going
anywhere... If Jimmy goes, I go, so I guess _you_ go if Jimmy
goes. There would be a sonorously sincere synergy to that. Don't
you think?

I guess we read on, but we hang together or assuredly hang
separately, like you said. And taking a lesson from George
Lucas, it's the diverity of an enterprise that will beat the
evil empire and destroy the Death Star. Presently I see UpDates
as the proud Rebellion that some might turn to its inbred
alternative. Let's just continue to trust our founder and
legislate no spurious legislations.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.









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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 19

               Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:42:06 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:51:48 -0400
Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Young


 >Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:29:21 -0300
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?

 >Yes, to the last. The Canadian Government grounded all
 >flights - except military - until the airspace opened in the
 >States. Right now private and recreational VFR aircraft are
 >grounded but that restriction will likely lift shortly.

Thanks, Don. This is beginning to get interesting. I'll bet the
skies haven't been this clear of aircraft since maybe 1920 or
so.

The problem is, as always, getting data that is truly
representative.


Clear skies,

Bob Young








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 19

                  Re: Undisputed Facts in Ufology - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:12:18 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:58:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts in Ufology - Ledger


 >From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts in Ufology
 >Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 06:26:28 -0600

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:08:54 -0400
 >>Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:55:01 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology

 >>A little frustrated, are you?

 >>Just think of the "richness" of the subject now. No longer just
 >>"plain vanilla" UFO sightings, of which we have zillions, and
 >>plain old contactee stories.

 >>If they weren't enough to make you crazy by themselves you now
 >>have abductions, mutilations, landing traces, movies, videos,
 >>rods, agriglyphs, orbs, space brothers, entities, megalithic
 >>constructions (not built by humans, of course), etc., etc.

 >>The solution?

 >>When the ice cream gets too rich, like Rainforest Crunch or
 >>Chunky Monkey, or Cherries Garcia, I just go back to plain old
 >>vanilla to reassure myself that there is "something to believe
 >>in."

 >Ah, but I too return to "plain vanilla." More so than ever
 >because that is where the real real cream is located. <G>New
 >things always can be added to the old. To Wit:

 >Chile-Whitted Incident. There were real people behind the
 >documentation that tells much more than the written report. As
 >an example consider the following:

 >1. Chiles led the airline industry in being the first of their
 >pilots to sport a mustache and other pilots began to follow
 >suit. 2. Born in Tennessee, Chiles father was a school principle
 >and a Baptist minister.

 >3. Chiles attended the U of Tenn and studied pre-med. He took
 >his training in the AAC at both Randolph and Kelly Fields, TX.
 >He also served at Hamiliton Field, CA.

 >4. Chiles became an EAL pilot at the age of 22 and was based in
 >Atlanta. (Ihave a photo of him taken in 1940 and a couple while
 >he was in the Army Air Corps). Two years later he was recalled
 >to active duty and flew the "Hump."

 >5. He became Squadron Commander and later Deputy Commanding
 >Officer of at Hensley Field and then was commanding officer at
 >Ascension Island and rose to the rank of Lt. Col. He flew just
 >about everything up to and including P-38s. While commanding
 >Wideawake field at Ascension Island, he used his own money to
 >bring Christmas trees from the U.S. so his men could have a
 >better Christmas on an island that had nothing and forbid
 >alcohol. Yep, although he was not a drinker, he allowed his men
 >to do so, but monitored it so that it did not get out of
 >control.

 >6. His wife's name was Eleanor and they were married 3 weeks to
 >the day before the attack on Pearl Harbor. HIs last duty
 >assignment was in Natal, Brazil.

 >7. Following his EAL career they moved back to Tennessee, built
 >there home out of an old church and raised cattle.

 >8. He made a movie with Gene Autry.

 >9. Shipe Chiles was a highly admired man for his expertise and
 >leadership, both in the military and at Eastern Airlines. He was
 >considered among his colleagues as the "Best of the Best." He
 >was not flamboyant, but very friendly, compassionate, but tough
 >about insuring everything he did was correct and on target.

 >Wendy Connors


Hi Wendy,

About 6 months ago I got into a limited argument with some on
this List and P-47 about the Chiles-Whited sighting which
apparently had been decided that it was a non-starter as UFO
sightings go.

Because we now have low level meteors that can reverse their
plummet and climb back upward, what Chiles and Whited had seen
was one of these newer model meteors/fireballs which I might add
is as unproven as ghosts and the existance of Christ.

I tried to explain the sighting from a pilots point of view
  - some of the stuff ufologists come up with regarding avaiation
is laughable - however, saner heads prevailed it seems.

Note that this was not a pet sighting of mine, nor was I even
aware of it. What I knew of this sighting came from a quick
look-up in Dick Hall's The UFO Evidence book and Jerry Clarke's
The UFO Book - and it came as a result of this sighting having
been claimed to be solved by Jenny Randles, Bob [it was probably
a meteor] Young and others.

One reason given for the likelihood of this being a meteor - if
memory serves - is that the object had an exhaust and since UFOs
as we know them can't/don't have exhausts, then this couldn't
have been the real McCoy.

There were also suggestions that the pilots were looking for
publicity at the time. I've heard this about Arnold and many
others as well but this is a time honored ploy used to discredit
the witness, if you can't disprove the sighting - so I tended to
ignore that claim as such.

What's your feeling on this case-closed scenario?


Don









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                      US UFO Sighting During Grounding

From: Jan Pheneger <jan0320@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:52:53 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:06:31 -0400
Subject: US UFO Sighting During Grounding


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:03:01 EDT
 >Subject: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Ladies & Gentlemen:

 >Presumably people in the US were still watching the skies last
 >week, when all civilian air traffic was grounded, perhaps more
 >so than usually.

 >I wonder whether UFO sightings continued unabated, and what kind
 >of UFOs were sighted? Triangular, Daylights Disks, or what?


Hi List!

Tuesday evening proved fruitful in Northwest Ohio for watching
the skies. On Route 117 West out of Lima, Ohio the light I have
taken pictures of, as well as video-taped recently did light up
above a treeline of a woods then just blinked out. I have posted
a full description of it _and_its_capabilities_ in my prior
post to UpDates.

It is a orange ball of light, often changing its form and
capable of changing to a red pin drop and zipping across the
sky, as I have seen it do many times in prior years with other
witnesses, as well as Sheriff's Deputys.

Tuesday evening's sighting was unexpected, but a witness with me
that saw it as well . By the time I turned on the camcorder, and
vehicle was stopped _it was gone. I still videotaped the area
above the trees where it lit up. But to no avail this time _ did
the camcorder pick it up even after the light disappeared.

I will remain, with eager attempts to get this light on more
video tape for you to have a better analysis then prior taping
of the light moving_blinking_out_and the video showing it take a
upward angle at a very high rate of speed when it appeared to be
invisible to the naked eye. As always_ it _only appears_ to be
gone to the human naked eye. Camera showing infr-red shows it
can still be there.

I am convinced that with no aircraft allowed during grounding on
Tuesday evening this is a real UFO we are dealing with.
Furthermore _upon_ reading this post today is a substantual
testimony I recently took a interview with.

There is report made recently of the hunter interviewed by me of
a time back in 1995-1997 who went to his deer stand and was
climbing up his stand when he saw tracks leading off into the
distance. Not that of a deer upon climbing back down to look at
these unusual tracks.

But in the fresh new fallen snow of a 6-8 inch snowfall_ claims
of a small barefoot child_5 toes_ and a Tallon hooklike claw off
of each toe. This is unusual enough_but the print was said to be
only 1/4 to 1/2 inches deep into that snowfall. Looking as if it
only drifted across the snow.

This deer hunter is very reputable_very skilled_in his
hunting_and tracking. Many around here who know him have there
bows set and tuned by this man prior to deer hunting season. He
knows his skill_tracking_hunting very well.

Upon further interviewing by me_ I was listening_letting him
tell all he had to say. He had mentioned he hunts in Michigan as
well_and naturally I assumed the wrong idea as to where this
area might be. Without making suggestions_or breaking into his
witnessing_ I just let him talk. A person who is being honest
will look another in the eyes. He did me_ and finally I said
where was this (?) Never did I expect the answer given.

The reply was so innocently given_ and for those of you who have
read my own personal accounts to UpDates of this light I have
personally seen_photographed_ and recently videotaped will know
why I shudder at this mans testimony.

He looked over innocently and said do you know where Route 117
West of Lima turns off onto Sunderland Rd. I hunt several of the
woods out there. And said his deer stands stand in several of
the woods in the area.

I froze at the reply. As to all who know I am a credible
witness_this is the exact road I lived on back from 1995 to 1999
prior to moving to Maryland, and the woods he mentioned are a
few of the woods that many have reported seeing this light who
live in the area_and the same woods that I have photographed
this light back during 1995-1997.

One needs only to look at the dates given in my prior post to
updates. Compare them dates. 1995-1997 was the time I did most
of my photographs of the lights.

I knew nothing of_about_this man_until a few weeks ago as for a
interview he was referred to me for.

Anyone out there anywhere who has ever seen anything similar as
for footprints in snow_better yet_mud ? If so_email me at
jan0320@aol.com

I would be interested in trying to obtain video taping and
pictures of this unexplained footprint. I understand that the
Wildlife Division of this County was contacted for information
as to what this tiny childlike footprint could of been.


Respectfully,

Jan Pheneger









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                    Connors' Undisputed Facts in Ufology

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:05:24 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:24:13 -0400
Subject: Connors' Undisputed Facts in Ufology


Hi Chris, Bob, Kelly, Diana, et. al.

Please forgive me if I don't answer each of you individually. I
suffer from Lupus and it has attacked the old joints, so I don't
do really long emails anymore, but here are some thoughts for
you all to consider as you discuss this thread - I'll be
lurking:


At this moment in time, especially with the US gearing for war,
there will be little to really do in Ufology, in its current
state. However, it is probably a really good time for a return
to basics, review what we have, dig and add the minor crumbs to
the old cases and the current cases and most importantly, all of
us to preserve the history of our search for understanding.

I have much faith in many of you younger researchers out there
whose posts I read.

Remember, I'm one of those old broads who got into this when
about the only violent thing on early T.V. was between Bugs
Bunny and Elmer Fudd. Hell, I remember when there wasn't TV
and our phone had a crank on it.

Listen and learn from we old fuds, geezers and biddies who are
rational and don't rush to judgment. Apply the groundwork all
of us laid over the last 50 years.

There are many of you who have open minds and are willing to
consider all possibilities. Unfortunately, you are being
over-shadowed by the purple-robed yo-yo's looking for deep,
nefarious conpiracies, channeling down the great mothership, off
on an alien hunt tangent without thought, etc. -  the list is
endless here.

It is your responsibility to begin to carry the ball and
distance yourselves from these crackpots, weirdos, fruit loops,
cretins, charltans, doofus'es, etc..

The time has come to learn and search the history of your field
of study and research so that as you add to the knowledge base,
you will do so with the understanding of what came before.

It is here that your greatest strength will come and the
ammunition you will need to bring Ufology into a recognized
science. It will happen. You have mountains of data and insights
available to you.

Some of you, or perhaps your children, will go on to become
scientists, academics, etc.

This is when the scientific default syndrome will begin to
collapse. But tread slowly, learn the basics, learn the history
and prepare your research for the future.

I recommend the delete button on those who are much like
terrorists stealing and destroying your research heritage in
Ufology.

Further, do what you can not to allow them to spread their
silliness. Hound them out of the field and off the internet
Lists devoted to the study and research of Ufology.

Show the academic and scientific world exactly what these
cretins are and replace it with what you are... damn fine
researchers who have much to offer in understanding the
phenomena from an intelligent point of view, regardless if your
being a lay person.

Most great advances that have come came not from the scientists,
but the visionaries who were not scientists.

While awaiting the next big case that might be the one to bring
enlightment, learn your field of study. Only a millionth of a
percent of information needed on the older cases are brought to
light. I demonstrate that all the time.

Get to know the people who researched before you, learn what
they did, how the did it, what they did wrong and what they did
right. Then use this to make the field better.

Do not listen to us old timers when we whine and complain that
Ufology is dead. It isn't. It really hasn't even begun its
journey thorugh the birth canal.


Little steps, little steps.....

Wendy Connors









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                       PRG Update - September 19, 2001

From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:50:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:37:49 -0400
Subject: PRG Update - September 19, 2001



PRG
Paradigm Research Group

Update - September 19, 2001

Relevance

Paradigm Research Group (and X-PPAC) has one primary goal - the
end of a government imposed embargo on the truth of an
extraterrestrial presence. In the process of pursuing this goal,
secondary, tangential issues such as secrecy reform and abuse of
power by intelligence agencies became part of the work. Because
these secondary issues are not trivial, the events of last week
will have considerable impact on the disclosure process and the
entities attached to that process.


The Disclosure Process and a Debate Deferred

Without question, the disclosure process has been set back and
likely set aside (as have a broad range of other issues) and the
Paradigm Clock will be adjusted accordingly. The attention of
the media, the Congress, and the general public will be focused
on the September 11 tragedy and the aftermath for an indefinite
period.

Somewhere in Washington a debate will take place in the coming
months - a debate to which the public will not be a party. On
one side the following position will be put forth: political
murder by religious fundamentalist fanatics is further proof
humanity is not ready to receive formal confirmation of an
extraterrestrial presence.

On the other side this position: the line delineating the growth
in collective maturity of the human race continues to diverge
from an exponential ascendance in the power and availability of
weaponry, population growth, and human impact on planetary
ecosystems. Only a profound change in the human collective world
view can prevent a 21st century calamity. The suppressed truth
of a galaxy of diverse intelligent civilizations is the only
candidate with the leverage to immediately alter the collective
Weltanshauung.

The nation was on the verge of seeing this debate enter into
mainstream intellectual discourse. Now that public, mainstream
debate has again been deferred.


PRG Agenda

The lobbying of Congress and the political media will be put on
hold. This could be a time when the UFO/ET research/activist
community could come together and privately work out the basis
for a more unified, comprehensive political approach to
influencing at a later time the government posture towards
disclosure. There are 20 million plus Americans who closely
follow the developing evidentiary structure for an
extraterrestrial reality. Brought together under a sufficiently
broad umbrella of common interest, it would be a powerful
political force.

PRG has set up a substantial computerized office capable of
handling 5 or 6 volunteers onsite. It is time to draw upon the
many offers of support to assist in creating infrastructure.
This would include a cyber support staff.

The issue described above hovers over every decision PRG makes -
would the resolution of the UFO/ET cover-up help the world move
away from war and terrorism as a means to pursue self-interests?


Commentary - America's Response

The nations response to this extreme act of political terrorism
will have far more consequence than the event itself. There is a
great opportunity to reestablish trust in governance by U.S.
citizens and foreign states.

As often stated, the business of America is business. But the
honor of America is justice and fairness for all people and
nations. It is essential the response of this nation to the
political murder of September 11 not tarnish that honor.

The American people have acted with extraordinary compassion and
circumspection to this provocation. Via unprecedented media
coverage, the world has witnessed a great and good people at
their best and now awaits the actions of the government that
represents and serves these people.

Let the response be so wise in its execution, so fair in its
application, so just in its outcome, the billions of the world's
inhabitants who mean America no harm and look to it for guidance
and support, will have their belief in America's values and
intentions reaffirmed.

The most valuable currency in this century will not be the
dollar, or Euro, gold and silver, or microchips - it will be
trust. Any nation that has it and builds it will be able to
pursue the hopes and dreams of its citizens. Any action or
policy which diminishes it, diminishes us all.


Commentary - The "Peter Principle"

The media coverage since September 11 has been extraordinary in
its scope and very revealing. Dozens upon dozens of interviews
with past and present players on the world's stage have been
aired. They have included the Mullahs of Afghanistan and Iran,
members and leaders of terrorist groups, ambassadors to nations
and the United Nations, the alpha males of American politics,
the war cabinets of Bush senior and Reagan, the current cabinet
of G. W. Bush, the current leaders of nations, the spinmeisters
of punditry, and the interviewers themselves.

After 100 hours of this immersion a personal view was handsomely
reinforced. The manner in which men of all cultures and nations
look at the world and conduct the world's business has taken the
human race as far as it can - it can go no further. Without the
full inclusion of the world view of women in the political,
military, religious and commercial decision making processes,
the 21st Century will become a time when the living envy the
dead.

  ___________________________________________________

                           Paradigm Research Group
                        URL: www.paradigmclock.com
                        E-mail: ParadigmRG@aol.com
                             Phone: 301-990-4290
                               Fax: 301-990-0199
                          4938 Hampden Lane, #161
                          Bethesda, Maryland 20814
  ___________________________________________________


    "There is almost no limit to what you can accomplish,
      if you are willing to give away the credit."







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             Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:24:32 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:49:11 -0400
Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Mortellaro


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:05:57 EDT
 >Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:43:38 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:03:01 EDT
 >>>Subject: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>>I wonder whether UFO sightings continued unabated, and what kind
 >>>of UFOs were sighted? Triangular, Daylights Disks, or what?

 ><snip>

 >>Last week I posted two informal reports to the members of the
 >>AIC e-mail List (I also shared it with Don Ledger and EBK)
 >>about two _daylight_ 'white disc' sightings that I had on two
 >>consecutive days. Both sightings were of a 'clearly defined' and
 >>'distinct' solitary white disc.

 ><snip>

 >>One disc (sighting on second day) was coming from the direction
 >>of Manhattan. At first I thought, "maybe they turned loose a
 >>weather balloon to check wind direction and it's blowing in
 >>towards me." But the object stopped _dead_ in its tracks for
 >>several seconds.

 >Or might have been moving directly toward you, then

 >>it started moving again in a slightly altered flight path toward me.
 >>I watched the clearly visible
 >>white disc, which looked more like it was 'glowing' from within
 >>- a soft light; not as harsh to the eye as reflected light; as
 >>it flew overhead slightly to the North of my position, it
 >>stopped dead in its tracks again for another few seconds, and it
 >>then disappeared over the rooftops as it moved off towards the
 >>East/Atlantic ocean. The whole "sighting" lasted two to three
 >>minutes, tops.

 >Could have been a balloon. What was the date and time? The wind
 >data is available from:

 >http://weather.unisys.com/archive/eta_init/0109/


Dear Bobbo,

Congratulations! It was a baloon. It's the one I was blowing up
in front of that NYC Copper when I got stopped for DWI. It got
away from me. Too much Gripple Gas. Whooshhhhhh!  All gone.

I was not arrested, as the ossifer was rather more intent on
sipping a taste, which I always keep in the back seat.  Just in
case I get abducted by a thirsty alien.

Good call, Bobbo...

Docca Morty









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                            Coincidental Or What?

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:24:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 06:34:18 -0400
Subject: Coincidental Or What?


Is this a little too coincidental or what?

O.K., here goes.



The date of the attack: 9/11 - 9 + 1 + 1 = 11

9/11 = 911 Emergency's Phone number

September 11th is the 254th day of the year: 2 + 5 + 4 = 11

After September 11th there are 111 days left to the end of the year.

119 is the Country Code to Iraq/Iran. 1 + 1 + 9 = 11

Twin Towers - standing side by side, looked like the number 11

The first plane to hit the towers was Flight 11


I Have More.......

State of New York - The 11th State added to the Union

New York City - 11 Letters

Afghanistan   - 11 Letters

The Pentagon  - 11 Letters

Ramzi Yousef  - 11 Letters (convicted or orchestrating the
                 attack on the WTC in 1993)

Flight 11     - 92 on board - 9 + 2 = 11

Flight 77     - 65 on board - 6 + 5 = 11



Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo

Miami UFO Center
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/ufomiami/index.html
Miami UFO Reporter (English)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/1341/index.html









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                   Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:52:03 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 06:35:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Young


 >From: Diana Cammack <cammack@eomw.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:34:07 +0100

 >>From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >>To: <UFOUpdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:05:33 -0600

<snip>

 >Collecting data in a passive manner - and how can it be anything
 >else unless you can be proactive and set up your own experiement
 >(e.g., do as CSETI and Greer used to do regularly, 'vector in'
 >UFOs) - is not very rewarding.

Diane:

An "experiment" has just been conducted - the removal of all
commercial and General Aviation from the skies of North America
to create the conditions which haven't existed since maybe 1920.
This should provide a great opportunity to search for UFO
sighting reports and study the differences.


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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             Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Rutkowski

From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@Ms.UManitoba.CA>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:27:00 CST
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 06:40:19 -0400
Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Rutkowski


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:16:30 EDT
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?

 >>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@Ms.UManitoba.CA>
 >>Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:47:14 CST

 >>I have received four such reports through official
 >>channels since last week's incident. Nothing fancy, mind you,
 >>just fireballs and the like. I would not be surprised if
 >>sightings continued being reported.

 >Hi, Chris: Thanks for the info. Were all flights grounded over
 >Canada, too?

Yes.


Chris Rutkowski
Media Relations Coordinator
Public Affairs Department
University of Manitoba
Winnipeg, Manitoba,
Canada  R3T 2N2
voice:  (204) 474-9514
e-mail:  Chris_Rutkowski@umanitoba.ca








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                          Filer's Files #38 - 2001

From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:05:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 06:50:11 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #38 - 2001


Filer's Files #38 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
September 19, 2001, Majorstar@aol.com.
Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com,

UFOs sightings have fallen but some are observed around the
world in New Jersey, Virginia, Wisconsin, Louisiana, Oklahoma,
California, Washington, England, Norway, Italy, and
Byelorussia.

AMERICA IS AT WAR - President Bush stated, "This act will not
stand, we will smoke them out of their holes, and hunt them
down and bring them to justice." None of us could have
predicted this kind of attack. Those who harbor terrorists will
be held accountable. This was assault not against the US, but
against the world. We thank the many readers have written
expressing their sympathies and horror that caused the
heart-breaking loss of life in New York, Washington, DC, and
Pennsylvania such as Yaroslavl UFO Researchers who expressed
condolences to families of the lost Americans in connection
with attack of the terrorists of September 11, 2001, Uryi
Smirnov in Yaroslavl, Russia.

I FEAR NO EVIL - This was an almost perfect terrorist assault
on New York and Washington, DC. However, the passengers on
United Flight 93 acted to thwart the final attack on the
capital. The families of at least four men on the plane were in
contact by cell phone with their loved ones and learned that
the terrorists had hijacked other planes and crashed them into
the World Trade Center. Flight 93 took off 40 minutes late from
Newark, and at 9:45 AM the craft made a sudden U turn while
over Cleveland heading towards Washington. Jeremy Glick, Tom
Burnett, Mark Bingham and Todd Beamer were on cell phones and
told about the crashes into the World Trade Center.

Glick, 31, was an Internet executive and judo champion, he told
his wife that he and other passengers were going to rush the
hijackers. His wife Lyz told Dateline, that she told her
husband, "Honey, you need to go for it."

Tom Burnett, 38, was an executive and former high school
quarterback was on the phone to California with his wife Denena
four times telling her, "We're getting ready to do something."

Mark Bingham, 31, was a rugby player who once disarmed a mugger
is also thought to have participated. He called his mother to
say good-bye.

Todd Beamer, 32, was an Oracle executive from New Jersey who
contacted GTE supervisor Lisa Jefferson and told her that two
hijackers had locked themselves in the cockpit, and that Glick
and some other passengers were going to jump the hijacker in
the rear of the plane holding a bomb. He asked her to pray with
him and they recited the 23rd Psalm, "Even though I walk
through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil,
for thou art with me, thy rod and thy staff they comfort me....
and I will dwell in the House of the Lord, forever." Jefferson
then heard Beamer say, "Let's Roll!" Very shortly thereafter
the plane crashed.

I wish to thank these and the other heroes on Flight 93 and in
the buildings who gave their lives so others could live. I send
our prayers to those who lost their lives and their loved ones
in this national tragedy. These terrorist attacks have changed
the world and I doubt if it will ever be the same. Nineteen
young terrorists were able to kill over 5,000 Americans and
many other nationalities and were able to destroy part of New
York and the Pentagon. We are all potential targets and the
magnitude of these attacks is extraordinary. This was a
cleverly planned conspiracy requiring a sophisticated terrorist
group, who quite likely has other plans for subsequent strikes.
Apparently, at least some of the terrorists lived in expensive
homes while attending flight school in Florida. The terrorists
paid the $10,000 entry fee and learned to fly. Most are
believed to have come from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and the United
Emirates. All three countries are considered friendly to the
United States. However, these are not democracies and this
apparently breeds resentment. Terrorist leaders such as Osama
ben Laden can take this resentment, falsely interpret their
religion and turn the people into terrorists willing to commit
suicide. None of the terrorists were known to be particularly
religious. Terrorists supported by Iraq are likely involved.

To defeat the terrorist we must be careful in how we carry the
war to them. Killing the innocent will only breed more
terrorism. Killing Osama ben Laden could make him a martyr.
There are indications other terrorist teams planned to
commandeer at least two more planes and were stopped by the
emergency grounding orders. In addition, we must be aware of a
possible trap in Afghanistan, and that the terrorist may
possess chemical and nuclear weapons.

Terrorists could also board planes in other countries and fly
them to the US. We would then have to choose to shoot down the
aircraft or let it hit other major targets. Three of four
hijacked aircraft hit their targets and succeeded in shutting
down America's financial markets and airline system. It is
likely that further attacks may be planned and we must all be
vigilant and aware of what is going on around them. The 1998,
African embassy bombings were followed by others attacks such
as the bombing of the USS Destroyer Cole in October 2000. It is
likely other teams are in place and awaiting orders. The
terrorists probably have limited knowledge of each other and
are instructed not to use long distance phones. There is
evidence they used the Internet. The real weakness of the
terrorists may be financial since most were apparently not
working, lived surprisingly well and had no obvious form of
income. Our country must cut off all financial aid to the
terrorists and freeze their assets.

CNN reported that F-15 fighters were launched from Otis AFB
shortly after the first airliner hit New York. The F-15s nearly
missed the second airliner before it hit the second tower.
Langley AFB, F-16s were scrambled from Langley to intercept the
AA-757 before it hit the Pentagon. Its likely the jets were
also tracking the UA-757 that crashed near Pittsburgh.
President Bush had given orders to shoot down any aircraft
entering Washington airspace, but NORAD claims none of its
fighters expended weapons. Aggressive attacks against
terrorists and countries that harbor will be forthcoming. Last
month there was a meeting of Islam terrorist organizations that
produced the Jerusalem Project, a plan to destroy Israel and
the US.

In the history of America there have been few more trying times
than those of September 11th. I thought it would be interesting
to determine what action George Washington took in the summer
of 1775, when he took command of rag tag Army whose mission was
to defeat Britain, then the most powerful nation in the world.

The following first general order was issued to all military
forces: "The General most earnestly requires and expects a due
observance of those articles of war established for the
government of the army, which forbid profane cursing, swearing
and drunkenness. And in like manner, requires and expects of
all officers and soldiers not engaged in actual duty, a
punctual attendance at Divine services, to implore the blessing
of Heaven upon the means used for our safety and defense. On
July 20 the order was amended. And it is expected that all
those who go to worship do take their arms, ammunition, and
accouterments, and are prepared for immediate action, if called
upon."

NEW YORK UFO A REFLECTION

WORLD TRADE CENTER - A UFO was noticed in the film of the
almost immediately after the attack by the second aircraft
hitting the second tower. Chuck Warren my Webmaster who has
extensive experience in analyzing film and computer images
strongly insists this is not a UFO and represents a reflection
of the sun's image or possible debris. I wish to thank many of
you who notified me about the possible UFO, but it appears to
be a false alarm.

NEW JERSEY 2ND CYLINDER SIGHTING:

SEA BRIGHT - Peter Tarlton reports he was on the coast about
four miles as the crow flies to New York City. He writes, "I
witnessed an illuminated/energized silver/mercury 300'+
cylinder at about 1850 feet in altitude, on September 15, 2001,
at 3:30 PM, the second in two weeks. The cylinder appeared and
disappeared in the exact location in the sky as the first one
on August 21. I watched for an additional 3 minutes to insure
it was a NOT a commercial craft nor a silver reflection in the
sun. There is little or no air traffic in this area, sadly,
making ideal viewing. May we be further guided by our wisdom to
enlightened actions; perhaps they will then let their presence
be truly known. Thanks to Peter Tarlton.
banastre2000@yahoo.com)

ORANGE - On September 13, 2001, the witness saw a craft rising
at a fast speed and saw a light being emitted from its base. I
am in North New Jersey and on Thursday evening, September 13,
2001, at about 9:00 PM, I was at a party for a retiring
colleague. I was outside using my cell phone when I heard
something overhead. All three-area airports were closed and no
planes were supposed to be in the air. I looked up and saw a
circular light ascending to the heavens then disappear. Did any
other members in the NY area see this too?

GARDEN CITY PARK - After a long and very tragic week here in
the NYC area, I feel compelled to watch our skies more
vigilant. With commercial air traffic stopped for 3 days, the
skies were sadly quite. I do not wish to add to the current
state of confusion, but feel I must note any strangeness in the
skies around New York City.

On Sunday, September 16, 2001, I saw what I thought could be a
Mylar balloon or satellite at high altitude at 3:30 PM. The
size of the object was 1/3 the size of a marble held at arm's
length. It was rock steady showing no movement and no
discernible shape. It was highly reflective of bright sunlight
at about 20,000 feet. A full size commercial jet appeared as
large as a marble at arm's length, but at only 1/2 the objects
altitude. I was at the Garden City Long Island railroad
station, facing east and walked my children home. During our 15
minute walk the object did not move so I got my binoculars and
saw the object was over Mitchell Field in Uniondale, 22 miles
from New York City. My friend and I both used the binoculars,
and feel this object did not look and more importantly did not
act like a balloon. I ran into the house and went online for an
AOL weather report. I next ran to the local grocery store and
brought 3 chrome look Mylar balloons. The object was east of
us but held steady. When we released the Mylar balloons they
followed the winds to the south, 45 degrees away from the
object. I should also note the balloons had nowhere near the
same reflectivity as they twisted and turned on their accent,
with an occasional flash of sunlight, similar to a cameras
flashbulb. In addition, the balloons I released stayed low in
the horizon, and went no higher than 25 degrees. I feel
confident this was no balloon or satellite and will be even
more vigilant of our great cities skies. Thanks to Peter
Davenport

VIRGINIA GOLDEN GLOWING BALL

MANASSAS - On September 8, 2001, four adults and one
7-year-old child witnessed numerous balloons at sunset at 9:15
PM. The witnesses soon realized that it wasn't balloons at all.
All are credible witnesses, two local city government
employees, a mechanic and an office accountant. What looked
like a large group of illuminated balloons was coming north in
our direction and we began to see they were large hazy golden
glowing balls about the size of the face of the moon. There was
a haze around the balls so you could not make out what was
inside the haze. Just in front of the glowing Ball, was about
four, maybe five, tiny star-like objects. They seemed to be in
a formation just in front of the larger object. All stayed
exactly in their formation and flew over our heads going north
against the wind, without changing or blinking nor making a
sound. The tiny star like objects seemed to be taking or
leading the larger object away. We all agreed that we could not
identify the object as an aircraft nor could we think of
anything it could have been, other than a UFO. Thanks to Peter
Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

WISCONSIN BOWLING BALL LIGHTS

SHEBOYGAN - UFO Wisconsin reports: "This information was given
to me by my son who is 17 years old who was driving out of
Howard's Grove on September 6, 2001. He saw two red lights
going near a field over a home. The lights were the size of
bowling balls about thirty yards away. They started to go
higher and then suddenly split into six red lights. They
started to twist and spiral around each other. They went higher
and higher and then suddenly vanished."

PORT WASHINGTON - Jenny Hoppe reports that the witness was
driving west on Highway 11 entering the city and looked east,
towards Lake Michigan, and saw a bright yellow/orange ball. The
object looked like a large headlight so the witness pulled off
the road. The object passed directly overhead and the underside
appeared to look more like an airplane might - with small red
and blue lights. Possibly it WAS just an airplane or helicopter,
but witness never saw one lighted in this manner. Thanks to
Jenny Hoppe jenny@ufowisconsin.com, http://www.ufowisconsin.com/

LOUISIANA FOOTBALL SHAPED UFO

MORGAN CITY - NICAP's witness reports, that on September 10,
2001, "My close friend, and I went outside about 10:30 PM, and
saw a football shaped object. It seemed to be made of a pipe
type structure, like a drawing on a 3-D model on a PC without
the skin. It had only two very dim white lights towards the
bottom, that looked like they where low wattage bulbs behind
cloudy white glass. The object was less than 400 feet away from
us. There is a "BellSouth" Tower behind my house, so I used the
tower as a gauge for size and distance. The object moved slowly
horizontal, but very fast vertically. This was my first TRUE
experience seeing such a thing. I am glad someone else was with
me." Thanks to Francis Ridge NICAP Site Coordinator
http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/

OKLAHOMA LARGE SILVER OBJECT IN STEEP CLIMB

TULSA - Shelley reports seeing a strange object on September
14, 2001, "I walked out of my office near the Tulsa
International Airport and immediately noticed a bright large
silver object with two bright spotlight looking circle lights
side by side. It was hovering in the northern horizon and had
an eerie glow all around the huge object. It just hovered in
the same spot for two minutes. I was looking for coworkers to
come out and one finally saw it. Minutes later, it took off
almost straight up to a very steep climb to the west and was
gone. It climbed at a steep angle much too great for a plane to
make and it WAS NO AIRPLANE." My boss also saw a strange bright
object in the sky two hours later while driving north on
Highway 75 about 8:00 PM. It also seemed to hover and fly
erratically going south then suddenly making strange turns that
a normal airplane could not make. He pulled the off road and
the object took off quickly. Thanks to Shelley
ShelleyA@Pennwell.com

WASHINGTON FLYING TRIANGLE

SEATTLE - The female witness was standing at the water's edge
of Myrtle Edwards Park in Seattle, looking up towards the
southeast. The sun was setting behind the Olympics when she
noticed three tiny solid black circles moving north in a
triangular pattern. They seemed to be moving very slowly and
were the size of a quarter of my fingernail at arm's length.
The three objects had no lights and were completely circular.
They then stopped and spread out into a line and just sat in
the sky. It appeared to be VERY high. There were also two
planes in the sky, rather low who were on approach to SeaTac
Airport. A fourth object was suddenly noticed moving upwards to
meet the other three. The four objects then moved, with an odd
uniformity of movement towards the south. They faded from view
in about a minute. I talked with Peter Davenport who found her
description of the objects credible and convincing. Thanks to
NUFORC www.ufocenter.com.

CALIFORNIA FLYING TRIANGLE SIGHTED AND TAPED

FLORISTON - On August 16, 2001, the witness got a short clip
on video tape of a very strange craft at about 10:00 PM. My
daughters boyfriend was out on the front porch and banged on my
window to get my attention. I looked out and saw a white
flashing very bright light. It had several white lights and one
bright red strobing light as well. It flew over the range to
the northeast, stopped, all lights went out for a few seconds,
then it lit back up and came straight back over again, without
making a banked turn. It stopped, then maybe rotated, or
pivoted and then came back. I got my video camera and took 20
to 30 seconds of a good sized object about the size of a 727
maybe a bit bigger. It was almost Delta wing shaped maybe more
of a sharper triangle. It made no noise even though it was
close by. Thanks to Joe's UFOs <anomalousnews@yahoo.com>

ENGLAND UFO SIGHTINGS

BRIDGEWATER, SOMERSET - On or about August 19, 2001, a flying
triangle shape object pointing towards earth and circle shape
on top with alternating red, blue and green lights was seen at
11:45 PM. It was silent and rotated in front of my car, then
flew off and hovered for roughly an hour above a small village
called Brent Knowle. It is here that 3 witnesses including
myself, observed the UFO with binoculars. Broken clouds started
to form in the distance and gradually our vision was limited
until after the last bit of cloud passed we looked back to see
that it wasn't there.

PITCASTLE, PERTHSHIRE - Gordon MacGregor reports, "We had
just finished entertaining guests at Pitcastle House on August
24, 2001, and were set to leave when David's phone rang. During
his conversation, I scanned the sky, and saw two star-like
objects moving at speed towards the south at 11:30 PM. I showed
then to David while he was still on the phone. As we watched,
he noticed another farther to the north traveling in an up and
down manner and glowing brighter. It also seemed to be
spinning, went up and down and often moved across. It sometimes
moved in a 'jerky' fashion. To our surprise, it would seem to
flash and was 'answered' by flashes from others star like
objects at differing points in the sky. Suddenly, after around
30 minutes, immediately below the main object there was a
sudden streak of light into which one of these star-like
objects moved at immense speed. The light was extremely similar
to the 'worm hole' depicted in the program Deep Space Nine. The
light had almost a tunneling effect and came from know where,
immediately closing when the object had passed through. We were
astounded at this. Two minutes later the main object rose
higher and higher and shot off upwards. Thanks to Gordon
MacGregor

GRIMSBY - On September 8, 2001, a telephone call alerted me to
the strange sighting of a ball bearing shaped silver ball
traveling in the skies over the East Coast of the United
Kingdom. Mr. H. D., who lives near Grimsby on the East coast of
the United Kingdom, telephoned on Monday evening to discuss
this unusual sighting. Mr. H. D. who is ex R.A.F. said the
silver object was as big as a 5 pence coin held at arm's
length, as it traveled from a WNW direction. The object passed
directly over him; "It was perfectly round with what looked
like extremely small stubby wings just protruding from its
circular body." He continued, " The object sped past me at
least four times faster than a Jumbo Jet. It crossed from
horizon to horizon in a matter of seven seconds. I was a
complete skeptic until I saw this, but now am convinced of the
existence of UFO's. As the local radio, weather watcher I am
constantly checking the skies and I know what I saw was
something strange." Thanks to Chris Evers www.hufos1.karoo.net
Faster Than Light Web Site

NORWAY FALLING STAR UFO?

INDERY, NORD-TRNDELAG - On September 17, 2001, the witness
was watching TV, and decided to take a smoke outdoors at 12:20
AM, when suddenly a falling-star-like thing fell to the ground
or passed by. I don't know how far away, but I didn't seem like
it was a falling star, it was to fast for that. I also heard a
high-frequency sound. I wonder if it could be a little meteor?
Thanks to Peter B. Davenport, Director National UFO Reporting
Center

BYELORUSSIA LIGHT SPHERE UFO

MOGILEV - This last summer was rich for UFO sightings in
Byelorussia. On August 24, 2001, between 11 and 12:00 PM many
people saw something very strange in Mogilev, the third biggest
Byelorussian City. A strange object the size of the Moon was
seen at two kilometers altitude. The shape was like a mushroom
lying on its side. It gave out a bright yellow light, sparkling
and shining. Later moving red and green lights appeared inside
the object and very soon it turned into real fireworks. Many
light spots were moving into and out of the object as it
changed shape for about six minutes. Finally it turned
"orange," but green and red lights remained. The "orange"
disappeared, then appeared again in another place, and moved
slowly to the west. It vanished again and appeared as a bright
star several times.

BULDUK LAKE - Pavel Zayats, a well-known Byelorussian
musician, and his girlfriend Ira Zapolskaya, saw a strange
shining sphere over Bulduk Lake on September 1, 2001. This is
one of the system of the Blue Lakes - a unique natural
reservation, with untouched woods and deep clean lakes north of
Belarus. Pavel says, "About 4:00 AM, I woke up because of a
strange terror inside of me and knew something was wrong.
Through the window I saw a light that turned into two rays as
if someone moved to the cabin with handy electric lights. I was
scared. I went outside and stood awestruck by image of a two
meters across, light sphere hanging above the ground in the
trees. Many small light balls were flying around the sphere. I
shouted and woke up Ira and we watched for twenty minutes. Then
the sphere slowly merged into the two rays of light again and
disappeared. A neighbor woman told me that she had seen a
similar phenomenon and it is dangerous and will drive you mad.
I noticed ! later in the day there was sparkling lights in our
cabin." Note: Bulduk Lake is well-known for strange fish or
animals with six meter humps. Thanks to Vadim Deruzhinsky,
Editor-in-Chief of Secret Researches Analytic Journal Tel./fax:
375 (172) 84 60 33 vd@gtp.

The GREAT UFO/ET CONFERENCE on October 6 & 7, 2001, at the DAYS
INN Route 206 and NJTP Exit 7, Bordentown, NJ. Saturday 10:00
AM George Filer will be the lead-off speaker concerning the UFO
Disclosure Project, Rick R. Hilberg - the First Three Decades,
Jim Wilson - When UFOs Land, Diana Palmer Hoyt UFOs, Social
Intelligence and Condon Committee, Donald LeeRose - Occultism
in Ufology, Georgio Tsoukalos - Legacy of the Gods, Antonio
Huneeus - UFO Chronicles From South America, Susan Swiatek -
New Abduction Cases, James Moseley - Shockingly Close To the
Truth, Ronald Story -The UFO Encyclopedia Project, Antonio
Huneeus- UFO Chronicles from Europe, George Hansen - The
Trickster and the Paranormal. Call Pat J. Marcattilio at 609
298-6100.

LARGEST UFO CD-ROM IN EXISTENCE The Black Vault has unveiled
thousands of documents relating to the UFO phenomenon. Some,
have never been published in electronic form, nor have other
seen even the light of day. Declassified in recent years, this
CD holds over 5,000 pages of material, covering the past
half-century of government involvement in the UFO field of
research. From the CIA recently declassified documents to the
FBI. From the NSA to the DIA, this CD has a fantastic archive,
ready to browse with high-resolution scans. Easily read and
easily navigated, this research tool will be used for years to
come! To order, call toll free, (866) 828-2858 or outside the
continental US, (818) 886-0131. Order online today,
http://www.blackvaultstore.com

"THE UFO EXPERIENCE" WEBSITE NAME TO BE AUCTIONED  - "The UFO
Experience" annual conference has been ended and the conference
website closed down. The website's URL <<www.ufoexperience.com
will be offered for sale at auction via the Internet on e-Bay
on September 24, 2001. The listing will be in the "Domain
Names" section. (On e-Bay's home page, enter "Domain Names" in
the question box "What are you looking for?" and then select
the "Find it!" button.) The auction will have a floor of $500
and will last five days. Preemptive bids will be considered
before the auction. I reserve the right to cancel the auction
if a preemptive bid is accepted. John White, Producer "The UFO
Experience" Conference 60 Pound Ridge Road Cheshire,
Connecticut 06410-3412, USA Tel 203-272-2151. Fax 203-250-0501,
E-mail White8011@aol.com

MUFON UFO JOURNAL - For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL for $30 per year by
contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended you for
membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2001 by George A.
Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the
files on their Web Sites provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue
that the item appeared. These reports and comments are not
necessarily the official MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish
to keep your name, address, or story confidential. Caution,
most of these are initial reports and require further
investigation.










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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 20

               Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 19:26:14 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 06:51:43 -0400
Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Young


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:24:32 EDT
 >Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:05:57 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:43:38 -0400
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?

 >Dear Bobbo,

 >Congratulations! It was a baloon. It's the one I was blowing up
 >in front of that NYC Copper when I got stopped for DWI. It got
 >away from me. Too much Gripple Gas. Whooshhhhhh! All gone.

Thank you, sir. My first thought was swamp gas, but that's
always a hisser, nowadays. However, I think that I said only
that it, "could have been", a balloon. One never knows about
these things. We'll see if the wind direction supports it.


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 20

                   Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Bird

From: Mike Bird <mikebird@interlog.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 00:48:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 07:02:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Bird


 >From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >To: <UFOUpdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:05:33 -0600

Hello all, I'm relatively new to the List. I'm Mike Bird from
Toronto. I've been lurking for the last three weeks. It's
amazing how much junk can be generated in such a short time
frame. This is the first post that wasn't about character
assination, and actually posed some important issues. Sufficient
to compell me to jump into the fray that has always been
Ufology, or as Linda Moulton Howe would say, "Searchers for
Truth".

Don't think that it only started in 1947. Have you read Thomas
More's "Utopia"? He was struggling for truth and meaning in
1516.

What about Galeleio? He knew truth, but it took a while for him
to be completely 'accepted'. Like 300 years by the church.
Mostly because truth challenges lies. It's all about control.

 >Now, where do we go from here and how do we actually focus on
 >doing whatever it is we are supposed to be doing about it?

Isn't that really what it's all about? Were supposed to be
figuring out what it all means. We're supposed to separate the
wheat from the chaff. We're supposed to figure our way out of
the forest. Both individually and collectively.

Last Tuesday was a major step backward.

But sometimes out of pain, comes focus and renewed purpose.

I hope my American neighbours truely understand that what
happened affected the entire world. We were all unwilling
wittnesses to the execution of 5000+ human beings, and vast
unnecessary destruction. The pain and fear was sensed by the
entire human community.

 >I consider myself a pretty decent researcher. Certainly not the
 >best or the brightest, but certainly not the dumbest either.

Don't be too hard on yourself. Just being involved, puts you
ahead of about 5.98 billion fellow earthlings, who are just
waiting for each weeks lottery numbers to be announced to
give their lives meaning.

 >What started as a challenge of looking at this phenomena has,
 >over the the years, turned into a circus of the most absurd
 >kind.

I think 'Ship of Fools' applies here. And Buckminster Fuller did
call our planet the "Good Ship Earth".

 >Suddenly I have to wade through crop circles, low level
 >hums, monuments on Mars, abduction, Nazi weaponry, clarivoyance,
 >voo-doo, crystals, invisible ships, flying men who look like
 >moths, fifteen zillion types of aliens, etc.

There does seem to be alot of pieces to the puzzle to turn
over. Maybe some of them are just diversions. Isn't it like TV
shows. Much is junk. Tune your antennae to the important issues.

 >What the hell happened to real Ufology and just when did the

Wendy, I'm not sure if there ever was such a thing. It reminds
me of the philosophical discussion that Bill Clinton started,
over what the meaning of the word 'is' is.

Early Ufology was just about 'nuts and bolts'. In my mind there
is no doubt that something is there. I'm not trying to determine
'what' anymore, it's more the 'why'.

 >basics become a thing of the past? I must have missed the
 >transition somewhere along the way.

No, we are still in transition. But we are slowly moving towards
truth. I'm hopeful it will happen in our lifetime, but if not
that is why my kids know what I think it's all about. If I
taught them anything important at all, it's that the world ain't
entirely as it appears. And to not be fooled by the fools.

Go easy on me folks, I'm the new kid on the List...

But I just turned 50, and I started researching things in '75,
so I'm no pushover. '75, the same year that Bo & Peep started
their cult, and the same year Travis was zapped. How many of you
got 'involved' around '75?

Lets try to have some meaningfull discussions about the content,
not the container.

Oh yes, I forgot to mention that I take my hat off to Lara. Yes
I know that she called off her 'fasting', but at least she took
a stand. It's easy to criticize, but try making a statement
where your own personal health is at stake. It's called 'caring
about something' greater than yourself.

There can be no doubt that she raised awareness about the
Disclosure project.


Warm regards to all,

Mike


"We must say all the words that should be spoken, before they
are lost and gone forever"

                              -- Chris de Burgh in 'Shine On'










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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 20

             Re: Low Seat Uptake On Doomed Flights? - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 05:56:22 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 07:06:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Low Seat Uptake On Doomed Flights? - McGonagle


A List member sent me a link to a CNN story which comes to
similar conclusions to those expressed on the list.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/19/hijacked.planes/index.html


Many thanks again,

Joe










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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 20

                      New URL For Cydonian Imperative!

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 23:20:22 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 07:08:35 -0400
Subject: New URL For Cydonian Imperative!


Hello,

The Cydonian Imperative has moved!

It can now be reached at:

http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

The site can also be reached through its old GeoCities address,
so old links can remain intact. The new ISP promises better
service, no pop-up ads, and increased data transfer capability.

I appreciate your helping make this transition a beneficial one.


Mac Tonnies

http://mactonnies.com









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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 20

                  Re: Undisputed Facts in Ufology - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 02:30:41 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 07:11:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts in Ufology - Sparks


 >Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:12:18 -0300
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts in Ufology


 >>From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts in Ufology
 >>Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 06:26:28 -0600

 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:08:54 -0400
 >>>Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:55:01 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology

<snip>

 >About 6 months ago I got into a limited argument with some on
 >this List and P-47 about the Chiles-Whited sighting which
 >apparently had been decided that it was a non-starter as UFO
 >sightings go.

 >Because we now have low level meteors that can reverse their
 >plummet and climb back upward, what Chiles and Whited had seen
 >was one of these newer model meteors/fireballs which I might add
 >is as unproven as ghosts and the existance of Christ.

 >I tried to explain the sighting from a pilots point of view
 >- some of the stuff ufologists come up with regarding avaiation
 >is laughable - however, saner heads prevailed it seems.

 >Note that this was not a pet sighting of mine, nor was I even
 >aware of it. What I knew of this sighting came from a quick
 >look-up in Dick Hall's The UFO Evidence book and Jerry Clarke's
 >The UFO Book - and it came as a result of this sighting having
 >been claimed to be solved by Jenny Randles, Bob [it was probably
 >a meteor] Young and others.


Hi Don,

Can you please explain to me why you think the Chiles-Whitted
object was _not_ a meteor, an explanation first proposed by
Hynek and the Air Force and later urged by the Condon Committee,
Phil Klass, and others? Are you familiar with the "airship
effect" in which darker and lighter areas of flaming reentries
and meteor fireballs generate the impression of "windows" in a
surrounding body? (CR pp. 574-582.)

I have never seen any clear data on the elevation and azimuth
angles for the Chiles-Whitted object. But we can reconstruct it
based on scaling from the relative relationships of distance,
speed, duration and height values given by Chiles and Whitted,
realizing that while each individual number is very difficult to
directly observe, the relative ratios can be observable
quantities.

Chiles and Whitted said the object came head on to within about
700 feet at about 500-700 mph while they were flying at 5,000
feet and was at a height of about 5,500 feet, or 500 feet higher
than their altitude, and disappeared behind them on the right
after a total duration of 5-10 seconds. (Chiles also gave a half
mile distance estimate but it's not clear when it applied,
beginning, middle or end of the sighting.)

That tells us the object was roughly 45� above the horizon
(arcsin 500 ft/700 ft = 45.6�). Is there anything inherently
impossible about a meteor at that angle? I don't think so. The
angular velocity is roughly a radian per second (perhaps 700
ft/sec speed at 700 ft range) or perhaps 1/4 radian per second
at the larger distance estimate.

If the object was at a typical meteor altitude of about 40 miles
then its ground range would also be about 40 miles. The angular
velocity translates to roughly 14 to 56 miles per second which
is quite in accord with typical meteor velocities at the low end
of that range. Is there anything inconsistent here with a
meteor?

When the object passed it _seemed_ to "pull up" into the broken
clouds at about 6,000 feet (more on the clouds below), which
would only be about 1,000 feet higher than the Chiles-Whitted
DC-3 airliner. Because the clouds were broken and Chiles-Whitted
never mention seeing the object pass in front of any of them, it
leaves open the possibility it was a meteor seen _through_ the
broken clouds. It all happened too fast to be sure of such
details.

As for "pulling up," there is a real angular problem here.
Chiles' and Whitted's own data indicate a _drop_ in elevation
angles paradoxically. Was it really higher angularly speaking or
was it an illusion of perspective due to the long distances
traveled across large arcs in the sky? To illustrate, suppose
the object took half the sighting duration or about 2.5 seconds
to pass from the abeam point on the right of the airliner to its
disappearance behind it. At a speed of 700 feet/sec on a "UFO"
scenario this would be a distance traveled of about 1750 feet to
a point where the ground range to the airliner would be about
1,900 feet.

But at that distance an altitude that _appeared_ to be 1,000
feet higher would only be about 28� above the horizon (arctan
1,000/1,900 = 28�), ignoring the one-degree aircraft depression
angle as negligible. While the heights and distances separately
may not have validity, their relative angular relationship does
and the distances can easily be scaled up to a "meteor"
scenario, keeping in mind the large error margins (for example,
we could use a meteor velocity of 20 mi/sec for a meteor
disappearing at a ground range of about 65 miles at an elevation
of 28�).

Yet the object at closest approach had been at roughly 45� elevation.
Afterward it only seemed to "pull up," but because it was in the distance
towards the horizon the effect of perspective caused the elevation angle to
actually _drop_ to only something like 28� elevation (keep in mind these
elevation angles have large precision error margins on the order of �25% to
�50%).

To give some more numbers for illustration, if it was a meteor
at a height of about 40 miles at that forty-mile closest
approach point then it could easily have dropped to, say, 35
miles height when it disappeared at perhaps 65 miles distance,
and these numbers would give the same elevation angles we
previously calculated, the same angles derived from Chiles' and
Whitted's "UFO" numbers. What is inconsistent with a meteor
here?

What might have rescued this sighting for the UFO category is if
McDonald could have obtained some quantitative data on the
sharpness of the "pull up" maneuver, but I cannot find any such
data, which requires a radius of curvature to be meaningful and
which McDonald did not obtain (I'm referring to his House
testimony). But it would have been better if such data were
obtained from the witnesses in 1948, not 1968, anyway.

Another thing that might save this for the unexplained "UFO"
category is if we could find witness observations of the object
passing in _front_ of a cloud, _"below"_ won't cut it because it
is ambiguous as to whether that means "below" by angle or
"below" by passing in front. A meteor can be "below" by angle
and still be at a great distance.

Whitted denied to McDonald in 1968 interviewing that the object
disappeared in the clouds but said it abruptly disappeared
before that point, so the disappearance doesn't give us distance
data. As co-pilot Whitted was on the right-hand side he had the
best view of the disappearance off to the right, while Chiles
was busy veering off to the left to avoid what was perceived as
a potential collision. There are cases of pilots veering off
from what they thought was a possible collision with what turned
out to be distant meteor fireball so the fact they thought that
doesn't prove the objects were nearby.


One last thing that might salvage this as a UFO is if the
double-decker arrangement of the "windows" that both Chiles and
Whitted described and drew turns out to be difficult to
reconcile with a meteor. Possibly that plus the pointed spindle
shape could be argued to be too sharply defined and structured
to be a fuzzy outlined meteor fireball (but Whitted didn't have
the needle nose). The skeptics argue that in space reentries
witnesses have drawn sharply defined cigar shapes with
rectangular "windows" (which were just illusions of orderly
arrangement and shape due to bright blobs of light seen against
less-bright glowing areas). See Plates 1c and 1d in Klass' UFOs
Explained. But the witnesses to reentries don't describe
_double_ decker rows of such lights or "windows." There is a
question whether double rows of meteoritic material can split
into two neat parallel streams like that. Skeptics could however
argue that it is too difficult for witnesses, however
experienced as pilots, to see details like this very clearly in
a sighting of such brief 5-10-second duration moving at such
high speed across the sky (up to 15� to 60� per second angular
velocity).

All in all, this just seems rather marginal. Why argue over this
case? Don't we have thousands of unexplained cases of longer
duration and better circumstances? It is a matter of history
more than anything else because it triggered the parallel
development of AMC's Aug. 5, 1948, TOP SECRET Estimate of the
Situation and Air Force Intelligence's TOP SECRET AIR 203 study.

 >One reason given for the likelihood of this being a meteor - if
 >memory serves - is that the object had an exhaust and since UFOs
 >as we know them can't/don't have exhausts, then this couldn't
 >have been the real McCoy.

I have never heard this argument before. An "exhaust" is a
burning stream and is very much like a burning stream of a
meteor or satellite reentry.

 >There were also suggestions that the pilots were looking for
 >publicity at the time. I've heard this about Arnold and many
 >others as well but this is a time honored ploy used to discredit
 >the witness, if you can't disprove the sighting - so I tended to
 >ignore that claim as such.

I've never heard this argument before, either.


Brad







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                Re: PRG Update - September 19, 2001 - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 02:50:56 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 07:13:34 -0400
Subject: Re: PRG Update - September 19, 2001 - Sparks


 >From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG@aol.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:50:52 -0400
 >Subject: PRG Update - September 19, 2001

 >PRG
 >Paradigm Research Group

 >Update - September 19, 2001

 >Relevance

 >Paradigm Research Group (and X-PPAC) has one primary goal - the
 >end of a government imposed embargo on the truth of an
 >extraterrestrial presence. In the process of pursuing this goal,
 >secondary, tangential issues such as secrecy reform and abuse of
 >power by intelligence agencies became part of the work. Because
 >these secondary issues are not trivial, the events of last week
 >will have considerable impact on the disclosure process and the
 >entities attached to that process.


 >The Disclosure Process and a Debate Deferred

 >Without question, the disclosure process has been set back and
 >likely set aside (as have a broad range of other issues) and the
 >Paradigm Clock will be adjusted accordingly. The attention of
 >the media, the Congress, and the general public will be focused
 >on the September 11 tragedy and the aftermath for an indefinite
 >period.

 >Somewhere in Washington a debate will take place in the coming
 >months - a debate to which the public will not be a party. On
 >one side the following position will be put forth: political
 >murder by religious fundamentalist fanatics is further proof
 >humanity is not ready to receive formal confirmation of an
 >extraterrestrial presence.

This is quite an earth-shattering sensational claim to be
making. If you _know_ this so assuredly then why do you need any
"disclosure"? You've got the whole story.

But if you don't really _know_ this, then you shouldn't be
asserting this as a fact. This just shows that the Disclosure
Process as presently led does not carefully distinguish between
fact and fiction. This understandably makes people in the UFO
community very nervous and unwilling to support a process that
cannot be relied upon to make important announcements of a
factual nature.

 >On the other side this position: the line delineating the growth
 >in collective maturity of the human race continues to diverge
 >from an exponential ascendance in the power and availability of
 >weaponry, population growth, and human impact on planetary
 >ecosystems. Only a profound change in the human collective world
 >view can prevent a 21st century calamity. The suppressed truth
 >of a galaxy of diverse intelligent civilizations is the only
 >candidate with the leverage to immediately alter the collective
 >Weltanshauung.

 >The nation was on the verge of seeing this debate enter into
 >mainstream intellectual discourse. Now that public, mainstream
 >debate has again been deferred.


 >PRG Agenda

 >The lobbying of Congress and the political media will be put on
 >hold. This could be a time when the UFO/ET research/activist
 >community could come together and privately work out the basis
 >for a more unified, comprehensive political approach to
 >influencing at a later time the government posture towards
 >disclosure. There are 20 million plus Americans who closely
 >follow the developing evidentiary structure for an
 >extraterrestrial reality. Brought together under a sufficiently
 >broad umbrella of common interest, it would be a powerful
 >political force.

<snip>

Why should the UFO community work with you when you have
injected a decidedly politicized agenda of attacking space
weapons and promoting exotic energy sources without having the
courtesy of consulting the UFO community in advance?

Why should the UFO community work with you when you have not
proved able to distinguish fact from fiction in making
sensational announcements and in screening crackpot and
unreliable "witnesses" from reliable ones?









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   Sep > Sep 20

                                 UFOs & SF?

From: Raymond Perrez <r.perrez@libertysurf.fr>
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:41:07 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 07:18:28 -0400
Subject: UFOs & SF?


[Non-Subscriber Post --ebk]

Dear Errol,

I am doing research on possible links between science fiction
films and UFO beliefs in the States. My website features a
questionnaire for guests to fill in if they want:

www.chez.com/offworld

Could you possibly post this message so that contributors to
your List can have access to the questionnaire if they so wish?
It would be a great help as I am in France and don't know quite
how to get in touch with people interested in UFOs in America.

Thanks a lot for your help.

:-)

Raymond Perrez
Toulouse, France











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   Sep > Sep 20

                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 325

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:49:33 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 07:21:48 -0400
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 325


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 325 - 14 SEPTEMBER 2001

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- Recap of the Summer Wave
- UFO Videos & Cartoons on TV
- National UFO Congress on "Luminous Phenomena in the Atmosphere"

      RECAP OF THE SUMMER WAVE

News and reports keep on coming in as of sightings of unusual
aerial phenomena this summer.

With the addition of thirty-odd cases heretofore unpublished on
the Internet site of the CUN, the total number of observations
gathered and catalogued up to this point by the working group of
the Italian Center for Ufology Studies between 1 June and 13
September has reached a total of 353, as announced by Giuseppe
Stilo in an update of his systematic real time tracking.

In a little over three months, the Italian summer wave of 2001
has therefore totaled more sightings than are typically normal
year. The concise monthly listings of the cases are available
for review on the Internet site of the CISU which, as always, is
interested in any new report.

[Report by Giuseppe Stilo.]


UFO VIDEOS AND CARTOONS ON TV

Italian TV screens heve been replete with UFO references and
inspirations in these last weeks, from pop band Travis's music
video ('Side', featuring Ufology enthusiasts watching the sky
and the final abduction of the members of the band), which
follows those (also UFO-related, in part) of Tahiti80, of
Gorillaz, and of Superman Lovers; the commercial ads for the new
telephone provider Tu (featuring the talking cellphone connected
to a spaceship) and the promotional campaign for the Euro (a
little coin traverses the screen as if it were a UFO, passing
through various scenes); and finally, the new cartoon series,
"Roswell Conspiracies," aired since 15 September on Italia 1
(the title is indicative of the "Aliens Among Us" theme).

[Reports by Paolo Bergia, Stefano Innocenti, Sebastiano Ridolfi
and Sveva Stallone; La Stampa, 1 September; Uforama Online, 1
September; Chucara2000 Mailing List, 1 September, Ufoitalia
mailing list, 2 September; ANSA, 14 September.]


NATIONAL UFO CONGRESS ON LUMINOUS PHENOMENA IN THE ATMOSPHERE

Invitations and the detailed program have been sent out to all
members of and collaborators of the Italian Center for Ufo
Studies regarding the 16th National Ufology Congress, which will
take place at the Astronomical Observatory of San Giovanni in
Persiceto (Bologna) on Saturday, 13 October, featuring the
theme: "Luminous Phenomena in the Atmosphere and Instrumental
Ufology."

Among the various reports, particular interest is expected for
the report on the EMBLA 2001 mission, jointly conducted this
summer in the Norwegian valley of Hessdalen by CNR researchers
and the Project Hessdalen Italian Committee.

[Reports by Renzo Cabassi and Giuseppe Stilo.]

- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website
at http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di
informazione ufologica", published by the Italian
Center for UFO Studies, registered at Tribunale
di Torino, No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo.
Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso Vittorio
Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2001 by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing (just send a
blank message to:
cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org









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   Sep > Sep 20

                     Re: Coincidental Or What? - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 06:44:39 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 07:22:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Coincidental Or What? - Sparks


 >From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Coincidental Or What?
 >Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:24:18 -0400

 >Is this a little too coincidental or what?

 >O.K., here goes.

 >The date of the attack: 9/11 - 9 + 1 + 1 = 11

 >9/11 = 911 Emergency's Phone number


In most of the world the date is written Day-Month so that it is
11-9 or 119. It is very doubtful that the planners chose the
date because our country uses 911 for the emergency number.










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                   Re: Coincidental Or What? - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:49:15 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:24:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Coincidental Or What? - Mortellaro


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 06:44:39 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Coincidental Or What?
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com


 >>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Coincidental Or What?
 >>Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:24:18 -0400

 >>Is this a little too coincidental or what?

 >>O.K., here goes.

 >>The date of the attack: 9/11 - 9 + 1 + 1 = 11

 >>9/11 = 911 Emergency's Phone number

 >In most of the world the date is written Day-Month so that it is
 >11-9 or 119. It is very doubtful that the planners chose the
 >date because our country uses 911 for the emergency number.

Hello, Brad, List, Errol,

With respect, but most countries did not get Bin Laden-ated.
Excuse, please, let me correct that... "Most countries did not
get allegedly bin Laden-ated."

Must observe the rules of political correctness and law.


Jim Mortellaro








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                  Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Cammack

From: Diana Cammack <cammack@eomw.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:21:10 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:28:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Cammack


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:52:03 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Diana Cammack <cammack@eomw.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >>Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:34:07 +0100

 >>>From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >>>To: <UFOUpdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >>>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:05:33 -0600

 ><snip>

 >>Collecting data in a passive manner - and how can it be anything
 >>else unless you can be proactive and set up your own experiement
 >>(e.g., do as CSETI and Greer used to do regularly, 'vector in'
 >>UFOs) - is not very rewarding.

 >Diane:

 >An "experiment" has just been conducted - the removal of all
 >commercial and General Aviation from the skies of North America
 >to create the conditions which haven't existed since maybe 1920.
 >This should provide a great opportunity to search for UFO
 >sighting reports and study the differences.


Good point. Now let's see what data we get and compare these to
data from a 'normal' day when America has 45% (I think I heard)
of the world's flights.....

We can also compare the data with a normal day in say, Africa,
when no airplane flies over. (I live in a capital city but
rarely see or hear a plane... it can be weeks...)

So, for instance, did we have fewer sightings in the US when
there were no airplanes than in a similar sized population of
Africa when we have (almost) no airplanes?

I venture to guess there would be more sightings in the
USA..... And this brings us to the crux of the matter: how to
compare data when you cannot hold the variables rigid.....

I would say there are fewer sightings reported from Africa on a
normal day because [1] Americans have a place to report
sightings to, [e] because they are aware of UFOs and hardly
anyone out here is..... And not necessarily because there are
fewer UFOs!

So, in the comparison between US when it has planes and  US when
it does not:, one variable is the people and their looking
upwards: were there fewer or more Americans looking skywards in
the days following the NY disaster? That should affect the
comparison. Similarly, were Americans too shook up (traumatised
by the disaster and subsequent events) to report a sighting or
were they more anxious and willing to report a sighting (because
the FBI and other authorities would want to know about anything
out of the ordinary)?

The population had changed and so it would be, to my mind, hard
to compare the two different scenarios/times.

Or there could have been fewer UFOs because ETs were staying
well-clear of what appeared to be a warzone, or there could have
been more, because ETs were taking notes on human nature! This
would throw off any comparison!

Not to belabour the point, I just think comparisons must be seen
within a larger framework of multiple and changable variables...
Its probably not science... Nonetheless, I am very keen to see
the results!


Diana
Malawi









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             Re: Connors' Undisputed Facts in Ufology - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:47:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:25:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Connors' Undisputed Facts in Ufology - Lehmberg


 >From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Connors' Undisputed Facts in Ufology
 >Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:05:24 -0600

 >Hi Chris, Bob, Kelly, Diana, et. al.

 >Please forgive me if I don't answer each of you individually. I
 >suffer from Lupus and it has attacked the old joints, so I don't
 >do really long emails anymore, but here are some thoughts for
 >you all to consider as you discuss this thread - I'll be
 >lurking:

Bummer! Sorry to hear about the Lupus. You know, I have a
were-sister (no time to explain<g>) with that affliction. Her
name is Miriam. She's controlled hers with supplements, and a
macro-biotic diet. I say this in the hopes you're not similarly
afflicted regarding suspicious programming from the mainstream
medical community, which has a lot to answer for in ANY
evaluation. Maybe everything that could be done is not being
done...

I hope you're not having it unbearably bad, at any rate... I
have only one tiny little joint at the end of my right middle
finger that is remotely agonizing at times; I can't begin to
imagine what you must endure over your whole body. Miriam was
crippled... nothing the doctors could do... she's snapped
herself right back, on her own, with diet and supplements.
Another guy cured his Crohn's disease doing a similar thing...

Apparently, the human body _wants_ to work right given the
correct raw materials that it used in the VAST majority of its
evolution out on the savanna. We eat a buncha' crap, just this
century, that the human mechanism never learned to process or
utilize. It's that, largely, that makes us sick, I understand.
It seems medicine is only a shill for drug companies who would
have you pay ruinously for what you can pick up around you...
but I digress <g>.

 >At this moment in time, especially with the US gearing for war,
 >there will be little to really do in Ufology, in its current
 >state.

...all part of the overall plan - unsettlingly... the price of our
attention span.....

 >However, it is probably a really good time for a return
 >to basics, review what we have, dig and add the minor crumbs to
 >the old cases and the current cases and most importantly, all of
 >us to preserve the history of our search for understanding.

F***in' "A" skippy! But, a tall order for a collection of folks
not getting the straight stuff from the git' go! And _that_
little tidbit seems to be blithely ignored in the rational
entreaty to do the homework, review the basics, and preserve the
history, no criticism of you personally.  It is a dismissing
mainstream, otherwise hailed as the default and final scientific
arbiter, that is the major bottleneck in a rational
understanding of UFOs.

The only real value in your approach is to remind the _rational_
individual that there is a core of experience in the phenomenon
that validates a true, and here-to-for ignored, dismissed or
ridiculed, unknown. That's what makes Dr. Maccabbe's response to
you so valuable and encouraging to me. Most of it is fake, but
much of it is _not_. That should be chillingly astonishing and
challenging to the scientific mainstream - but it ain't! Hynek
and Vallee pointed this out early in the game. The mainstream
still won't cop! That's the seminal issue!

 >I have much faith in many of you younger researchers out there
 >whose posts I read.

I'm compelled to wonder what satisfies or presupposes your
standard for a quality researcher.

 >Remember, I'm one of those old broads who got into this when
 >about the only violent thing on early T.V. was between Bugs
 >Bunny and Elmer Fudd. Hell, I remember when there wasn't TV
 >and our phone had a crank on it.

With respect, that's an appeal to authority, madam - not playing
well to the over 50 crowd aspiring to the uncluttered (alien, if
you will) view of the present state of things. The authority
appealed to? It is suspect in the extreme.

I mean no insult here. All of us are at the whim of shadowy
non-elected unknowns not shy about the use of progamming,
behavioral modification, and social manipulation to achieve its
myopic ends. It's quite a challenge to wade through and a
reminder that trying to drain the swamp is difficult when
perplexed by those ubiquitous alligators of inordinate
disposition...

 >Listen and learn from we old fuds, geezers and biddies who are
 >rational and don't rush to judgment. Apply the groundwork all
 >of us laid over the last 50 years.

And when has _that_ ever occurred? That ground work was clearly
articulated by Hynek in his book of 1972 where he provides
convincingly referenced argument for a ufological investigation
that has been hamstrung from the very beginning by the very
_officials_ that called for it! I've respect for the fuds,
geezers and biddies that is due, but perhaps a too restrictive
rationality led to no _movement_ to judgement. It is plain that
we are no closer to disclosure that we were in 1972. Not really.
It is still dismissed, ridiculed, and ignored by a mainstream
that otherwise hammers it into the popular conscious via
corporate media... and what's up with that?!?

 >There are many of you who have open minds and are willing to
 >consider all possibilities. Unfortunately, you are being
 >over-shadowed by the purple-robed yo-yo's looking for deep,
 >nefarious conpiracies,

I've done some research that makes conspiracies of all types a
little more understandable. There is conspiracy, Ma'am. It is
nefarious. It is deep. Denial, given revealed history, is
ludicrous. One word - Nixon. I mean no insult to a conservative
sensibility... Another noun - Kissinger...

 >channeling down the great mothership, off
 >on an alien hunt tangent without thought, etc. - the list is
 >endless here.

...So is the list of what is speciously denied.

 >It is your responsibility to begin to carry the ball and
 >distance yourselves from these crackpots, weirdos, fruit loops,
 >cretins, charltans, doofus'es, etc..

Well - as one tries to wash this particularly _alien_ infant,
one must take care to parse out, somehow, that illusive
difference found between this kind of baby and the bathwater
it's sitting in. Pure science is only willing to take, at best,
a very narrow view of the ufological, evidenced by the thin
production of substance that we fuds, geezers and biddies have
provided over the last 50 years.

Weirdoes, fruit loops, cretins, charlatans, and doofus'es,
moreover, are more likely an alternative individual reaction to
institutions that are not forthcoming, deliberately misleading,
or lying outright. These are interested, innocent people and a
minority of sociopaths who prey on them or take advantage of
their confusion...

Most of these folks may be confused people trying to distill
meaning from a culture that largely _fails_ them regarding
paranormal issues - monsters putting profit and the maintenance
of the status quo ahead of people's efficaciously enlightened
(and socially responsible) self-actualization.

That's not psychobabble. People _want_ to be informed. Society
does not fulfill its responsibility to do that.

 >The time has come to learn and search the history of your field
 >of study and research so that as you add to the knowledge base,
 >you will do so with the understanding of what came before.

No argument in principle here; however, some thought should be
given to acting on it. What was true 50 years ago is just as
true today. Waiting for a conflicted mainstream science to
notice even the most rationally sincere and painstaking
adherence to its method is perhaps a fool's errand.

Bad science, specious assumptions, and flawed executions are the
bulk of what has come before. What would be learned from that?
The mainstream works passionately to pervert the understanding
of what has come before too much of the time. Condon's report
still has a scientific validity that is unearned, conveniently
contrived, and a perversion of the very science that it wears
like a bulletproof cloak... but it is still referenced by the
opposition, inexplicably!

 >It is here that your greatest strength will come and the
 >ammunition you will need to bring Ufology into a recognized
 >science. It will happen. You have mountains of data and insights
 >available to you.

Amen to that! Little that ever sees the light of day,
unfortunately.

 >Some of you, or perhaps your children, will go on to become
 >scientists, academics, etc.

 >This is when the scientific default syndrome will begin to
 >collapse. But tread slowly, learn the basics, learn the history
 >and prepare your research for the future.

 >I recommend the delete button on those who are much like
 >terrorists stealing and destroying your research heritage in
 >Ufology.

...but not too quick with that button because it's the
complacent mainstream that produces that conjectured terrorist
and steals or destroys that heritage of research! Don't worry
about the woo-woo crowd! They're just an understandable reaction
to that VAST informational VOID created by the short-sheeting
mainstream. In the face of real information, presently denied,
even a _purple_ robe evaporates to laughable smoke and shadows.

 >Further, do what you can not to allow them to spread their
 >silliness. Hound them out of the field and off the internet
 >Lists devoted to the study and research of Ufology.

Better to expend that same energy on the real cause of the
informational deficit. The silliness wouldn't be here but for
that now much maligned and maliciously obfuscating mainstream.

 >Show the academic and scientific world exactly what these
 >cretins are and replace it with what you are... damn fine
 >researchers who have much to offer in understanding the
 >phenomena from an intelligent point of view, regardless if your
 >being a lay person.

Sounds as good as a Knute Rockne locker-room pep-talk... but,
again, it's a cowardly fearful and inappropriately gun-shy
academic and scientific _mainstream_, producing and sustaining
the alleged "cretins", that is the enemy of that intelligent
point of view you'd celebrate.

 >Most great advances that have come came not from the scientists,
 >but the visionaries who were not scientists.

That's right! And a lot of these guys went down, forgotten, in
unjustified flames before the scientific sheeple crawled on
board.

 >While awaiting the next big case that might be the one to bring
 >enlightment, learn your field of study. Only a millionth of a
 >percent of information needed on the older cases are brought to
 >light. I demonstrate that all the time.

I've got to agree with that. Lord knows _I_ wouldn't have
anything to write about. <g>.

 >Get to know the people who researched before you, learn what
 >they did, how the did it, what they did wrong and what they did
 >right. Then use this to make the field better.

The only thing that can make the field better is to have the
mainstream dragged kicking and screaming to its table as a
result of strident and unceasing activism. We've made this kind
of progress no other way. Anything else is an exercise in
futility. With respect, ma'am, you'd throw the seed on the
unwatered concrete and expect it to grow. You suggest that it is
possible to breath in a vacuum. You imply that no bad deed goes
unpunished. <g>. I maintain that no _good_ deed goes unpunished.

 >Do not listen to us old timers when we whine and complain that
 >Ufology is dead. It isn't. It really hasn't even begun its
 >journey thorugh the birth canal.

Amen!

 >Little steps, little steps.....

...any step, every step. Torches and headbands. Marching in the
streets. All the stuff that makes America truly great, energizes
our futures, and freshens up an aggregate potentiality <g>.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND - John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is - the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the scurrilous.









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 20

                   Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:06:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:33:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Velez


 >Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 00:48:30 -0400
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Mike Bird <mikebird@interlog.com>
 >Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology

 >>From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:05:33 -0600

Hi Mike,

 >Hello all, I'm relatively new to the List. I'm Mike Bird from
 >Toronto. I've been lurking for the last three weeks.

Cheeses, Mary and Joseph, and here I thought you were a
"Listerion" all these years! Welcome to the List Mike. I really
am surprised that you weren't subscribed all this time. I learn
something 'new' everyday. :) I always kind of assumed that you
were in the background taking in all the many discussions.

 >Isn't that really what it's all about? Were supposed to be
 >figuring out what it all means. We're supposed to separate the
 >wheat from the chaff. We're supposed to figure our way out of
 >the forest. Both individually and collectively.

And what you see going on here is that process in action. In
_all_ of its manifestations. Some, not all, of what you see is
"self-policing." (House cleaning) Takes a bit of attention to
discern the difference sometimes I'll grant you that, but it
_is_ self-policing nonetheless. "Sometimes" that self-policing
gets reduced to the level of (Monty Python's) game,"spot the
loonie" but even those incidents do not diminish its value one
iota. (prime example: Lara Johnstone)

 >Go easy on me folks, I'm the new kid on the List...

Oh stop. Never forget, "sticks and stones can break your bones
but 'words' will never hurt you." (Unless you yourself grant
them that power over you.)  ;)

 >But I just turned 50,

Welcome to the "other-side" of the mountain! :)

I got my AARP card (American Association of Retired Persons) in
the mail just last week. I guess it doesn't matter to them
whether you are retired or not, only that you've reached the
'magic number' 50! Which I did two years ago.  <VBG>

 >Oh yes, I forgot to mention that I take my hat off to Lara. Yes
 >I know that she called off her 'fasting', but at least she took
 >a stand. It's easy to criticize, but try making a statement
 >where your own personal health is at stake.

She didn't "take a stand" as much as "go on a diet" Mike. Her
"health" (as it turns out) was never 'really' in any "danger" at
all. We got snookered - again. Go to the UFO Mind Archives (URL
listed below) and read through _all_ the posts in the thread
before passing any final judgement. It all turned out to be
'smoke & mirrors'. After reading through it all you may still
wish to stand by your original remarks but, at least that
opinion will be based on familiarity with _all_ of the facts and
commentaries.

Unless of course you happen to _like_ "smoke & mirror" illusions.

Every once-in-awhile a 'shiny bauble' appears that sends some of
the participants on the List into a deep hypnotic trance. Go and
study your kids faces while they are engrossed in one of their
favorite TV shows. It's like that. Same phenomena. I don't
watch much TV myself, and a 'shiny object' doesn't hold much
fascination for me unless; it flies, moves in strange ways, has
no visible engine or wings, and makes no sound. :) But then my
'bent' is of a much more reality based and practical nature
anyway. To each his/her own. Mike (Woodsy) will tell you;

"Reality sucks, send in a good fantasy!" <LOL> :)

 >There can be no doubt that she raised awareness about the
 >Disclosure project.

Many of us consider the "Disclosure Project" to be a
'non-starter.' (With _good_ cause/justification) And at that
point, "raising awareness" about what is essentially a
"non-starter" doesn't really serve much _practical_ purpose.
Does it? It's like holding a carnival and inviting thousands to
watch someone beating an already dead horse eh!

Contrary to popular belief; Steven Greer does _not_ represent
Ufology. He is not there by consensus, which is what anything
involving our own elected officials calls for.

Everybody who supports this sham is always crying; at least
Greer is doing something! Well, what is it precisely that he is
doing? Let's have a look-see.

The only 'real' thing of a practical nature to come out of it so
far is; brisk sales of Greer's two hour video and a
North-American conference tour that Greer uses like an old
fashioned Medicine Show to showcase and sell his tapes.

There are _no_ petitions being gathered for presentation to
Congress. There are _no_ 'real' plans to do so.

There are _no_ 'real' efforts being made to secure hearings. Nor
are there any further plans for it.

In fact, because of the tragedy of last week they have now
cancelled _any_ and all efforts to secure hearings. But wait...
there's more!

The "Disclosure Project" is not just about 'UFO disclosure'.
Greer has tacked on unrelated political hot potatoes like "space
based weapons" and "free energy". Greer didn't even properly
check out his own witnesses _before_ parading them before the
media, our elected political representatives, and the rest of
us. All the media needs in order to discredit any good or solid
witnesses in the group is; to find one or three liars among
them.

Greer is going to end up hurting Ufology much more than any
debunkers or skeptics ever have in the 50 years preceding
this so called "Disclosure Project". It should more accurately
be called, "Greers' Disclosure Video Discount House and Magical
Mystery Tour."

Many of those "witnesses" would be much better off hitching
their little red wagons to _another_ star. Check it all out for
yourself. As you know Mike, I have a lot invested in this UFO
business of a very personal nature. I have little patience for
the opportunists and the fakers. Greer _is_ one of those. So you
see, it isn't so much "character assassination" as it is,
calling 'em like you see 'em. Speaking the truth. Exposing
charlatans before they can do much harm. etc.

I guess your take on the posts to the List will pretty much
depend on which side of the debate your own thoughts and
feelings resonate with. But don't make the mistake of dismissing
it all as "criticism" for the sake of criticism. Some of us
really do care.

You have a _lot_ of catching-up to do my brother. Bone-up on
all of the posts that have been submitted on these subjects. Any
time spent at the UFO Mind Archive will be time well-spent.

My warmest regards to your wife and kiddies. Good to hear your
'voice'. Been a _long_time_ since we talked. Do you still have
your UFO group in Toronto?

Welcome aboard Mike. :)

Best wishes,

John Velez

            A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
            www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                 johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
   "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 20

                    Re: Coincidental Or What? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:54:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:36:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Coincidental Or What? - Lehmberg


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:49:15 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Coincidental Or What?
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 06:44:39 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Coincidental Or What?
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Coincidental Or What?
 >>>Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:24:18 -0400

 >>>Is this a little too coincidental or what?

 >>>O.K., here goes.

 >>>The date of the attack: 9/11 - 9 + 1 + 1 = 11

 >>>9/11 = 911 Emergency's Phone number

 >>In most of the world the date is written Day-Month so that it is
 >>11-9 or 119. It is very doubtful that the planners chose the
 >>date because our country uses 911 for the emergency number.

 >Hello, Brad, List, Errol,

 >With respect, but most countries did not get Bin Laden-ated.
 >Excuse, please, let me correct that... "Most countries did not
 >get allegedly bin Laden-ated."

 >Must observe the rules of political correctness and law.

Ossama bin Labia = 6-3+5 = 11! Wow! It IS a miracle!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by scurrilous
skepti-bunkies.









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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 20

                Re: PRG Update - September 19, 2001 - Bassett

From: Stephen G. Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:49:12 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:42:34 -0400
Subject: Re: PRG Update - September 19, 2001 - Bassett


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 02:50:56 EDT
 >Subject: Re: PRG Update - September 19, 2001
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG@aol.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:50:52 -0400
 >>Subject: PRG Update - September 19, 2001

 >>PRG
 >>Paradigm Research Group

 >>Update - September 19, 2001

 >snip

 >>Somewhere in Washington a debate will take place in the coming
 >>months - a debate to which the public will not be a party. On
 >>one side the following position will be put forth: political
 >>murder by religious fundamentalist fanatics is further proof
 >>humanity is not ready to receive formal confirmation of an
 >>extraterrestrial presence.

 >>PRG Agenda

 >>The lobbying of Congress and the political media will be put on
 >>hold. This could be a time when the UFO/ET research/activist
 >>community could come together and privately work out the basis
 >>for a more unified, comprehensive political approach to
 >>influencing at a later time the government posture towards
 >>disclosure. There are 20 million plus Americans who closely
 >>follow the developing evidentiary structure for an
 >>extraterrestrial reality. Brought together under a sufficiently
 >>broad umbrella of common interest, it would be a powerful
 >>political force.

 ><snip>

 >Why should the UFO community work with you when you have
 >injected a decidedly politicized agenda of attacking space
 >weapons and promoting exotic energy sources without having the
 >courtesy of consulting the UFO community in advance?


The point of that paragraph was not that the UFO community work
"with me," but that it work together. As for the matter of a
"politicized agenda," you may have me confused with Steven
Greer. PRG has supported the Disclosure Project and continues to
do so, because at the heart of the DP is the drive to get
congressional hearings. As regards the space weapons and energy
issues brought forward at the press conference, PRG's position
is as follows:

1)  efforts to weaponize space are being made without a fully
     informed, public debate. Weaponization has been moving
     forward in a disingenuous fashion. Most importantly,
     what little debate is taking place is completely absent
     the critical information regarding an extraterrestrial
     presence, which remains under a government enforced
     embargo. Space and military policy built upon lies
     and misinformation is not in the best interest of the
     nation.

2)  considerable witness testimony points to embargoed
     technology as well. Either that embargoed technology
     would have major impact on human affairs or it
     would not. If the government wishes to come forward and
     say that, "Yes, we have alien technology under review,
     but no, it is not sufficiently developed for commercial
     application." it can do so - perhaps as part of open
     congressional hearings. PRG supports the public
     knowing the specifics of government held alien
     technology.

The key phrase in the paragraph, however, was "sufficiently
broad umbrella." There are differences of opinion on this or
that initiative such as the DP. However, it should be possible
to identify areas of broad agreement, common interest which sit
above these niche disagreements.  Within that larger tent a
political movement could be born.


 >Why should the UFO community work with you when you have not
 >proved able to distinguish fact from fiction in making
 >sensational announcements and in screening crackpot and
 >unreliable "witnesses" from reliable ones?


This update was not a press release.  Most readers understood
that the "debate" referred to was a speculation. I am not one
who believes the military services and intelligence agencies are
composed of fools. Only a fool would ignore the impact of
September 11 on an internal disclosure process. If you do not
believe there is an extraterrestrial presence in our world and
elements of the government are aware of it, then you would
understandably have no confidence in such a speculation.

PRG was not part of any witness screening process. At the end of
the day, some of the witnesses will be shown to be flawed. It is
the totality of the testimony which is compelling. It is PRG's
position that any effort to deny congressional hearings for
dozens of government witnesses, because two or three are
compromised, is neither legitimate nor appropriate.


Regards,

Stephen Bassett










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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 20

                   Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:14:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:46:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Velez


 >From: Diana Cammack <cammack@eomw.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:21:10 +0100

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:52:03 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Diana Cammack <cammack@eomw.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >>>Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:34:07 +0100

 >>>>From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >>>>To: <UFOUpdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >>>>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:05:33 -0600

 >><snip>

 >>>Collecting data in a passive manner - and how can it be anything
 >>>else unless you can be proactive and set up your own experiement
 >>>(e.g., do as CSETI and Greer used to do regularly, 'vector in'
 >>>UFOs) - is not very rewarding.

 >>Diane:

 >>An "experiment" has just been conducted - the removal of all
 >>commercial and General Aviation from the skies of North America
 >>to create the conditions which haven't existed since maybe 1920.
 >>This should provide a great opportunity to search for UFO
 >>sighting reports and study the differences.

 >Good point. Now let's see what data we get and compare these to
 >data from a 'normal' day when America has 45% (I think I heard)
 >of the world's flights.....

 >We can also compare the data with a normal day in say, Africa,
 >when no airplane flies over. (I live in a capital city but
 >rarely see or hear a plane... it can be weeks...)

 >So, for instance, did we have fewer sightings in the US when
 >there were no airplanes than in a similar sized population of
 >Africa when we have (almost) no airplanes?

 >I venture to guess there would be more sightings in the
 >USA..... And this brings us to the crux of the matter: how to
 >compare data when you cannot hold the variables rigid.....

 >I would say there are fewer sightings reported from Africa on a
 >normal day because [1] Americans have a place to report
 >sightings to, [e] because they are aware of UFOs and hardly
 >anyone out here is..... And not necessarily because there are
 >fewer UFOs!

 >So, in the comparison between US when it has planes and  US when
 >it does not:, one variable is the people and their looking
 >upwards: were there fewer or more Americans looking skywards in
 >the days following the NY disaster? That should affect the
 >comparison. Similarly, were Americans too shook up (traumatised
 >by the disaster and subsequent events) to report a sighting or
 >were they more anxious and willing to report a sighting (because
 >the FBI and other authorities would want to know about anything
 >out of the ordinary)?

 >The population had changed and so it would be, to my mind, hard
 >to compare the two different scenarios/times.

 >Or there could have been fewer UFOs because ETs were staying
 >well-clear of what appeared to be a warzone, or there could have
 >been more, because ETs were taking notes on human nature! This
 >would throw off any comparison!

Hi Diane,

First, I want to say that I thought this was a thoughtful/well
written post. But this note isn't about that.  :)

I've been wanting to ask you a few questions if I may, mostly
because I haven't taken the time to get to know you (shame on
me) and because of what is to this New Yorker, your 'exotic'
location. :)

You wrote:

 >Not to belabour the point, I just think comparisons must be seen
 >within a larger framework of multiple and changable variables...
 >Its probably not science... Nonetheless, I am very keen to see
 >the results!

Nothing scientific mind you, but do you happen to have a rough
estimate of the number of sightings in your area? And I ask in
spite of the fact that you mentioned the lack of reporting
centers in Africa. I just thought that because you have an
interest in the subject you might have a bit more 'local' info
than most.

For many years now and in many countries, people (myself
included) have been observing and recording (as best we can)
small white discs and spheres circumnavigating our skies in
broad daylight freely, and with complete impunity. I have
_hours_ of video that I have accumulated myself, and tape that
was submitted to me from people all over the world of these
white discs, and spheres.

I'm curious if you have ever seen or heard of anything similar
that may even have been 'videotaped/recorded' locally to you.

Also, what do you know of 'local' (if any) UFO abduction
reports? If you do know of any, could you please tell me if
there is any major deviation in terms of reported details, from
what you know of our 'Western' UFO abduction reports?

And thanx in advance for taking the time to respond to my
'nosey' questions Diane. Just curious. Inquiring minds want to
know!   :)

Regards from the 'New Heartland of Humanity' - New York -


John Velez  ;)


                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 20

                                 People.....

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:18:20 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:50:16 -0400
Subject: People.....


People Who Suffer Together Are Closer Than Those Who Are Most Content

A short note, if Errol permits.

These are tough times for all of us. For the world, not just
this country. Abductees are the last group of people in this
world who should not be on at least friendly terms. I extend my
hand to all of us. Even you, Dennis. Just kidding.

I forgotten who it was who told Kruschov that we would wait
until "hell freezes over" for his answer... during the Cuban
Missile crises. I will wait until hell freezes over, with my
hand hanging out in mid air, until someone reaches out. No one
in particular, anyone will do.

And the reason for this is the times in which we live. Abductees
must pull together at all costs. "People who suffer together
grow closer than people who are quite content... " (Dylan) And
Lord knows, we suffer together. We share pain. It has affected
our lives in the most intimate of ways. And I deal with pain in
] my own way. I believe in laughing. At me, at you, at
researchers, even at the entities that I perceive have nearly
ruined my already miserable life. Although I think I'll take
back that last group. I really do hate the little buggers.

There must be room for a little lightening up. It's the brew
that made Brobdignag famous. So I shall with the permission of
Mr. Bruce- Knapp, do my level best to lighten our load. Which is
a heavy one indeed. By laughter. Humor. Satire and a little burp
or three now and again. Make that a 'Hic' because Larry Hatch
already has the "burp" department all tied up.

Laughter for me is the best medicine. We should all learn to
laugh at ourselves. And if we cannot, let someone else do it. I
once worked for a guy who was a marketing genius. But he hated
doing the marketing. He told me that, "I like to hire people who
love the work, and let them deal with it. They do the best job."
He hired me. I loved the work.

And with every job or assignment I ever had, I would always
demonstrate a good deal of humor. It made everyone happier. And
I never even had to sip the Grip to get in the mood. I'm always
in the mood.

So, until Rosie and I are installed in our new home this coming
weekend, I'll be a little scarce. Some of you will miss the
humor. Some of you will be very happy indeed. Some of you. To
the rest, my hand is still hanging out there. In love and
friendship to all who would grab it, shake it vigorously and
give me a hug. Even if we remain unintelligibly and vigorously
on opposite sides of the fence.


Jim and family.....

PS: We're coming soon, in a desert near you.
PPS: Sorry, I lied. My notes are never short. Just me.








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   Sep > Sep 20

                   Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:35:19 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:52:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Young


 >From: Diana Cammack <cammack@eomw.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:21:10 +0100

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:52:03 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>An "experiment" has just been conducted - the removal of all
 >>commercial and General Aviation from the skies of North America
 >>to create the conditions which haven't existed since maybe 1920.
 >>This should provide a great opportunity to search for UFO
 >>sighting reports and study the differences.

 >Good point. Now let's see what data we get and compare these to
 >data from a 'normal' day when America has 45% (I think I heard)
 >of the world's flights.....

 >We can also compare the data with a normal day in say, Africa,
 >when no airplane flies over. (I live in a capital city but
 >rarely see or hear a plane... it can be weeks...)

 >So, for instance, did we have fewer sightings in the US when
 >there were no airplanes than in a similar sized population of
 >Africa when we have (almost) no airplanes?

 >I venture to guess there would be more sightings in the
 >USA..... And this brings us to the crux of the matter: how to
 >compare data when you cannot hold the variables rigid.....

 >I would say there are fewer sightings reported from Africa on a
 >normal day because [1] Americans have a place to report
 >sightings to, [e] because they are aware of UFOs and hardly
 >anyone out here is..... And not necessarily because there are
 >fewer UFOs!

Good point. No matter where one stands on what the stimulii for
UFO sightings might be, there is no doubt that in the US there
is a powerful cultural component. Nearly everybody here "knows"
about UFOs.

 >So, in the comparison between US when it has planes and US when
 >it does not:, one variable is the people and their looking
 >upwards: were there fewer or more Americans looking skywards in
 >the days following the NY disaster? That should affect the
 >comparison.

Yes.

 >Similarly, were Americans too shook up (traumatised by the
 >disaster and subsequent events) to report a sighting or were
 >they more anxious and willing to report a sighting (because the
 >FBI and other authorities would want to know about anything
 >out of the ordinary)?

Other good flies in the ointment, as it were.

 >The population had changed and so it would be, to my mind, hard
 >to compare the two different scenarios/times.

Yes, but one still has the UFO reports _received_ and what kind
they are, triangles, single Nocturnal Lights which might be
astronomical, etc. Whatever is reported should show _some_
difference.

 >Or there could have been fewer UFOs because ETs were staying
 >well-clear of what appeared to be a warzone, or there could have
 >been more, because ETs were taking notes on human nature! This
 >would throw off any comparison!

Ha. This reminds me of James Oberg's "Null Hypothesis" in his
book, UFO's and Outer Space Mysteries. In this he notes the
variations in annual number of reports and the low probable
number of remaining mysteries. He postulated that if perhaps the
legislature of the planet Clarion, or whatever, decided to cut
the Earth research budget and therefore no true UFOs were
present, we most likely wouldn't be able to tell the difference
between that year and the one preceeding it.


Clear skies,

Bob Young








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   Sep > Sep 21

             Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Deardorff

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:14:06 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:04:20 -0400
Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Deardorff


 >Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:08:43 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:05:57 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >>Could have been a balloon. What was the date and time? The wind
 >>data is available from:

 >>http://weather.unisys.com/archive/eta_init/0109/

 >Dates and times above.

 >Wind data (wind barb) indicates that on the 13th the prevailing
 >winds were coming from offshore (roughly SE to NW) and on the
 >14th from (roughly NE to SW.) Double check me Bob. I'm not a
 >meteorologist and reading those weather maps makes my eyes go
 >crossed. I "think" I read the wind data correctly though. What
 >I'm not sure of is; what altitude do those wind readings
 >represent? Both objects couldn't have been higher than a
 >thousand feet or so. But then it's hard to determine altitude
 >not knowing the size of the object(s) I was observing. Check out
 >the maps for me and confirm or correct my reading of the wind
 >data for those two days please.


Hello John,

Allow me to jump in here to point out that the weather map shown
in the above URL gives wind vectors for roughly the 5000 ft
level (850 millibar level), and for 00Z (midnight Greenwich
time) and 12Z times. So you'd need to interpolate between the
surface winds and those 5,000 ft winds, and also between 00Z and
12Z times to have a fair estimate. The winds were pretty weak on
the 14th 00Z and 12Z, perhaps only 3-5 mps, and hard to even
estimate on their crude chart. They could be somewhat variable
under such conditions at lower altitudes than 5,000ft.


Regards,

Jim D.









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   Sep > Sep 21

                   Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 07:53:09 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:07:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Hatch


 >From: Diana Cammack <cammack@eomw.net>
 >To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:21:10 +0100

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:52:03 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Diana Cammack <cammack@eomw.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >>>Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:34:07 +0100

 >>>>From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >>>>To: <UFOUpdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >>>>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:05:33 -0600

 >><snip>

 >>>Collecting data in a passive manner - and how can it be anything
 >>>else unless you can be proactive and set up your own experiement
 >>>(e.g., do as CSETI and Greer used to do regularly, 'vector in'
 >>>UFOs) - is not very rewarding.

 >>Diane:

 >>An "experiment" has just been conducted - the removal of all
 >>commercial and General Aviation from the skies of North America
 >>to create the conditions which haven't existed since maybe 1920.
 >>This should provide a great opportunity to search for UFO
 >>sighting reports and study the differences.

 >Good point. Now let's see what data we get and compare these to
 >data from a 'normal' day when America has 45% (I think I heard)
 >of the world's flights.....

 >We can also compare the data with a normal day in say, Africa,
 >when no airplane flies over. (I live in a capital city but
 >rarely see or hear a plane... it can be weeks...)

 >So, for instance, did we have fewer sightings in the US when
 >there were no airplanes than in a similar sized population of
 >Africa when we have (almost) no airplanes?

 >I venture to guess there would be more sightings in the
 >USA..... And this brings us to the crux of the matter: how to
 >compare data when you cannot hold the variables rigid.....

 >I would say there are fewer sightings reported from Africa on a
 >normal day because [1] Americans have a place to report
 >sightings to, [e] because they are aware of UFOs and hardly
 >anyone out here is..... And not necessarily because there are
 >fewer UFOs!

<snip>


Hello Diana:

As this map (fast loading) will show, most of Africa is devoid
of UFO sightings reports available here:

http://www.larryhatch.net/EASTHEMI.html

Virtually all reports came from Europeans and other non-native
people; colonists, missionaries etc.

In southern Africa, most of my data came from/through Cynthia
Hind of Zimbabwe. The results of this bias show strongly in
another map of that region:

http://www.larryhatch.net/SAFALL.html

One bright spot is the small French island of Reunion, which is
white with sightings. Look East of Madagascar, about 55 degrees
East, 21 dgrs South. It comes down to communications,
infrastructure, culture, politics .. Simple language
difficulties prevent adequate coverage of some areas.

I would not know which way to bet regarding North American
sightings counts during the aviation hiatus of last week. Fewer
aircraft mean fewer misidentified night-lights, but there may
have been more eyes on the skies watching for the military craft
most definitely up there!

Peter Davenport of the NUFORC in Seattle might have some good
statistics however. I would look him up first for comparisons,
and then try to sift things out.

http://nuforc.anomalies.net/reports/ndxevent.html


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch


PS: My dad was born in Melsetter, S. Rhodesia BTW. His
recollection was that the natives would interpret anything out
of the ordinary in a spiritual context.

PPS: Once again, please note the new URLs for these maps and
other *U* Database displays. The old www.jps.net pages are about
to go down.









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   Sep > Sep 21

                 Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:11:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:12:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Lehmberg


 >Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:06:48 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology

 >>Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 00:48:30 -0400
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: Mike Bird <mikebird@interlog.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology

 >>>From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >>>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:05:33 -0600


<snip>

 >>Oh yes, I forgot to mention that I take my hat off to Lara. Yes
 >>I know that she called off her 'fasting', but at least she took
 >>a stand. It's easy to criticize, but try making a statement
 >>where your own personal health is at stake.

John quotes the letter, Mike, but you've got the spirit, and
law's not much without spirit. She wasn't in the same kind of
danger as eating nothing, but she did lose a lot of weight while
making a point of some solidity about our suspicious leadership,
and she did it while suffering some pretty crass, abusive, and
sneeringly *fallacious* criticism from her more myopic friends
and neighbors. Through it all she kept her chin high, her
expression calm, and her message focused. In 1967 she was
everywhere, and we could use more of her now. Especially now.

 >She didn't "take a stand" as much as "go on a diet" Mike.

This is inordinately harsh, John, and frankly innaccurate. The
stand she took was abundantly obvious. To focus on what this
women did is to forget what compelled her to do it. Her very
brave stand, and willingness to endure the ridicule she enjoyed,
proves her to be a rationally conscientious whisleblower of the
first water. I'm supposed to have a pretty good idea of what
courage really is (?), and she's got it. In buckets. And I don't
know, but I think it likely her action cost her plenty, too.

 >Her
 >"health" (as it turns out) was never 'really' in any "danger" at
 >all.

...Seems she did an extreme thing for an inarguably excellent
cause with some elegance and intellegence, and did it in a non
violent way. I don't think that it _gets_ any better than that.
And deep down? I think you think so, too.

 >We got snookered - again.

There's no snooker here, John. But there we are, talking about
her, still, when what should interest us is what compelled her
to do it.

 >Go to the UFO Mind Archives (URL
 >listed below) and read through _all_ the posts in the thread
 >before passing any final judgement.

I agree completely. Read mine especially! <g>.

 >It all turned out to be
 >'smoke & mirrors'.

Nonsense. It was an individual act of pristine and uncomplicated
bravery pointing to a place nobody (but a _few_ of us) really
wants to look. Moreover, I think a large part of the irritation
with her comes from the ballsy demonstration she unflinchingly
made. Perhaps a few of the menfolk (present company excluded, of
course <g>) were a mite embarrassed that they lacked the
requisite stones to make her particular kind of "balls to the
wall" statement. A busily _proactive_ one.

That's what I'm hearing from some female lurkers, at any rate. I
rather agree with them, well nigh embracing the betrayal of my
"Y" chromosome. It might get me laid! <g>. No? Still, it seems
the right thing to do.

 >After reading through it all you may still
 >wish to stand by your original remarks but, at least that
 >opinion will be based on familiarity with _all_ of the facts and
 >commentaries.

Amen! ...and I've pumped up a hallelujah for ya'! I'm betting
he'll go for the spirit over the letter, though. Flexibility
over rigidity. Acceptance over dismissal...

 >Unless of course you happen to _like_ "smoke & mirror" illusions.

<snip>

Oops! Gotta' watch those either/or's, even John's (especially
John's <g>.), Mike... a fallacy because real life doen't break
down like that. There's always another option, always an
alternative. It's seldom either/or unless it's constructed to be
that way. We're not computers. We _invent_ computers.

"You're either dead or alive"! No. There a lot going on between
those two things -- too much to assess.

"You're either with me or against me"! No, again. Not of
necessity. Never of necessity.

Have fun on the list Mike. It's an education every _day_.



Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.








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   Sep > Sep 21

                Re: PRG Update - September 19, 2001 - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 18:29:32 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:13:59 -0400
Subject: Re: PRG Update - September 19, 2001 - Sparks


 >From: Stephen G. Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:49:12 EDT
 >Subject: Re: PRG Update - September 19, 2001
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com


 >>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 02:50:56 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: PRG Update - September 19, 2001
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG@aol.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:50:52 -0400
 >>>Subject: PRG Update - September 19, 2001

 >>>PRG
 >>>Paradigm Research Group

 >>>Update - September 19, 2001

 >>snip

 >>>Somewhere in Washington a debate will take place in the coming
 >>>months - a debate to which the public will not be a party. On
 >>>one side the following position will be put forth: political
 >>>murder by religious fundamentalist fanatics is further proof
 >>>humanity is not ready to receive formal confirmation of an
 >>>extraterrestrial presence.

You've snipped off my response here without noting that you'd
done so. My point was that here you present a scenario as
factual as if based on definite knowledge of specific agencies
and persons involved. Only when challenged do you say this was
merely "speculation" that most would understand to be such.

To be an effective lobbyist you need skills of diplomacy and
care in the art of expression. Here you violate both standards
by making sensational pronouncements without any awareness of
the discredit you bring to your position. And you not only
alienate those in government and media who are sensitive to the
crackpot element but also those in the UFO community who care
about rigorous, disciplined research into the UFO phenomenon
free from the effects of loose cannons, crackpots and
charlatans.

 >>>PRG Agenda

 >>>The lobbying of Congress and the political media will be put on
 >>>hold. This could be a time when the UFO/ET research/activist
 >>>community could come together and privately work out the basis
 >>>for a more unified, comprehensive political approach to
 >>>influencing at a later time the government posture towards
 >>>disclosure. There are 20 million plus Americans who closely
 >>>follow the developing evidentiary structure for an
 >>>extraterrestrial reality. Brought together under a sufficiently
 >>>broad umbrella of common interest, it would be a powerful
 >>>political force.

 >><snip>

 >>Why should the UFO community work with you when you have
 >>injected a decidedly politicized agenda of attacking space
 >>weapons and promoting exotic energy sources without having the
 >>courtesy of consulting the UFO community in advance?


 >The point of that paragraph was not that the UFO community work
 >"with me," but that it work together.

Well you lumped in "ET research/activists" in with the UFO
community as if you intend to slip in the Greer/CSETI/DP types
as if they have been and are a part of the UFO community, rather
than being interlopers with a hidden agenda that wasn't seen for
years and now an increasingly vocal political agenda that is
unrelated to UFO research and investigation.


 >As for the matter of a
 >"politicized agenda," you may have me confused with Steven
 >Greer. PRG has supported the Disclosure Project and continues to
 >do so, because at the heart of the DP is the drive to get
 >congressional hearings. As regards the space weapons and energy
 >issues brought forward at the press conference, PRG's position
 >is as follows:

I was not confusing you. You're a fellow traveler with
Greer/CSETI/DP. Everyone knows that.

 >1) efforts to weaponize space are being made without a fully
 >  informed, public debate. Weaponization has been moving
 >  forward in a disingenuous fashion. Most importantly,
 >  what little debate is taking place is completely absent
 >  the critical information regarding an extraterrestrial
 >  presence, which remains under a government enforced
 >  embargo. Space and military policy built upon lies
 >  and misinformation is not in the best interest of the
 >  nation.

 >2) considerable witness testimony points to embargoed
 >  technology as well. Either that embargoed technology
 >  would have major impact on human affairs or it
 >  would not. If the government wishes to come forward and
 >  say that, "Yes, we have alien technology under review,
 >  but no, it is not sufficiently developed for commercial
 >  application." it can do so - perhaps as part of open
 >  congressional hearings. PRG supports the public
 >  knowing the specifics of government held alien
 >  technology.

 >The key phrase in the paragraph, however, was "sufficiently
 >broad umbrella." There are differences of opinion on this or
 >that initiative such as the DP. However, it should be possible
 >to identify areas of broad agreement, common interest which sit
 >above these niche disagreements. Within that larger tent a
 >political movement could be born.

Sorry but you're pushing a sugar-coated poison pill, sugar
coating the poison of having to accept crackpot elements with
complete acceptance and unconsciousness of their disreputable
nature while imagining that the sweetness of seeking disclosure
of government UFO secrets will smother over the bitter poison.
It's still poison. It makes one wonder if someone has
deliberately orchestrated this campaign as a means to discredit
the UFO community.

 >>Why should the UFO community work with you when you have not
 >>proved able to distinguish fact from fiction in making
 >>sensational announcements and in screening crackpot and
 >>unreliable "witnesses" from reliable ones?

 >This update was not a press release. Most readers understood
 >that the "debate" referred to was a speculation. I am not one
 >who believes the military services and intelligence agencies are
 >composed of fools. Only a fool would ignore the impact of
 >September 11 on an internal disclosure process. If you do not
 >believe there is an extraterrestrial presence in our world and
 >elements of the government are aware of it, then you would
 >understandably have no confidence in such a speculation.

 >PRG was not part of any witness screening process. At the end of
 >the day, some of the witnesses will be shown to be flawed. It is
 >the totality of the testimony which is compelling. It is PRG's
 >position that any effort to deny congressional hearings for
 >dozens of government witnesses, because two or three are
 >compromised, is neither legitimate nor appropriate.

No matter how much sugar (genuine witnesses) you use to coat the
poison (crackpot and liar witnesses) it's still poison! You're
not screening witnesses but you accept them _all_ without
question, and you don't even say you urge competent screening,
nor are you lobbying for such careful screening. You don't fool
anyone when you dress up completely disreputable witnesses as
merely "compromised," as if it was merely a matter of weak
stories, minor errors, etc. Many in the UFO community are doing
a screening of our own and we're screening _you_ out of our
legitimate UFO contacts and databases.








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   Sep > Sep 21

                Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 20:03:39 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:15:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Mortellaro


 >From: Diana Cammack <cammack@eomw.net>
 >To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:21:10 +0100


 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:52:03 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Diana Cammack <cammack@eomw.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >>>Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:34:07 +0100

 >>>>From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >>>>To: <UFOUpdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >>>>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:05:33 -0600

 >><snip>

 >>>Collecting data in a passive manner - and how can it be anything
 >>>else unless you can be proactive and set up your own experiement
 >>>(e.g., do as CSETI and Greer used to do regularly, 'vector in'
 >>>UFOs) - is not very rewarding.

 >>Diane:

 >>An "experiment" has just been conducted - the removal of all
 >>commercial and General Aviation from the skies of North America
 >>to create the conditions which haven't existed since maybe 1920.
 >>This should provide a great opportunity to search for UFO
 >>sighting reports and study the differences.

 >Good point. Now let's see what data we get and compare these to
 >data from a 'normal' day when America has 45% (I think I heard)
 >of the world's flights.....

Dear Diana, List, Errol,

Normal? Here? Woof! Not bloody likely. Nothing in this country
is normal. However (and I am answering a point raised below) the
events here in the States more than traumatized citizens. People
stayed glued to their TV sets for the better part of a week.
Nothing was able to stir them or pry them away. And still, the
toob is irresistable.

So, my theory is that this is not an experiment at all. Because
the one variable we have not considered in your post is the one
which is not a variable. People are not looking up. They are by
and large, looking straight away at the toob. Over dinner. Over
breakfast, at work and every other which way.

 >We can also compare the data with a normal day in say, Africa,
 >when no airplane flies over. (I live in a capital city but
 >rarely see or hear a plane... it can be weeks...)

Then there are the cultural and population differences to factor
in.

 >So, for instance, did we have fewer sightings in the US when
 >there were no airplanes than in a similar sized population of
 >Africa when we have (almost) no airplanes?

As above.

 >I venture to guess there would be more sightings in the
 >USA..... And this brings us to the crux of the matter: how to
 >compare data when you cannot hold the variables rigid.....

 >I would say there are fewer sightings reported from Africa on a
 >normal day because [1] Americans have a place to report
 >sightings to, [e] because they are aware of UFOs and hardly
 >anyone out here is..... And not necessarily because there are
 >fewer UFOs!

 >So, in the comparison between US when it has planes and US when
 >it does not:, one variable is the people and their looking
 >upwards: were there fewer or more Americans looking skywards in
 >the days following the NY disaster? That should affect the
 >comparison. Similarly, were Americans too shook up (traumatised
 >by the disaster and subsequent events) to report a sighting or
 >were they more anxious and willing to report a sighting (because
 >the FBI and other authorities would want to know about anything
 >out of the ordinary)?

 >The population had changed and so it would be, to my mind, hard
 >to compare the two different scenarios/times.

 >Or there could have been fewer UFOs because ETs were staying
 >well-clear of what appeared to be a warzone, or there could have
 >been more, because ETs were taking notes on human nature! This
 >would throw off any comparison!

 >Not to belabour the point, I just think comparisons must be seen
 >within a larger framework of multiple and changable variables...
 >Its probably not science... Nonetheless, I am very keen to see
 >the results!

Aks (sorry, I'm still a Bronx boy) ... ask Larry Hatch. Larry?


Best,

Jim Mortellaro
The Good Humor Man








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               CCCRN News: (Update) Formation Report 2001 #17

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 01:59:23 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:18:44 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: (Update) Formation Report 2001 #17



CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

September 20, 2001

_____________________________


(UPDATE) FORMATION REPORT 2001 #17 - RED DEER, ALBERTA


The 'Star of David' formation at Red Deer, Alberta is 422 feet
in diameter, not the estimated 300 feet as earlier reported,
making this the largest, and arguably most complex formation yet
found in this country. The large circle in the center is 106
feet, the smaller circles ranging from 42 to 44 feet. Connecting
pathways are about 3 feet wide. Judy Arndt from Edmonton,
Alberta of CropCircleQuest and a field research assistant for
CCCRN, along with Alberta coordinator Gordon Sopczak conducted a
ground survey of the formation yesterday. Lyle Ford, Anne Pope
and Bob Oulton, three more assistants from Calgary, Alberta,
have gone there today as well. Lyle has taken aerial photos from
his Cessna plane as has Bob from his paraglider. The formation
was found September 16; it is known to have not been there on
September 1, when the field was last sprayed.

The ground lay ranges from neat and tidy in some areas to messy
in others. The crop is mature red wheat, which is very dry and
brittle. The geometry is off in places, although the overall
design is impressive, and very large! This field does have
tramlines (not common here), with the formation oriented to
match up with them (see diagram attached). The seed heads do not
show any obvious damage associated with mechanical flattenning
(as in most hoaxes); plant stalks are bent at various heights,
from ground level to about three inches above the ground. No
stretched or ruptured nodes found.

The formation is starting to receive public and media attention with many
visitors to the site.

There is also a report from nurses at a nursing home in nearby
Lacombe earlier this month, of seeing odd triangular
configurations of lights at 3:15 am, then later again around
5:00 am. A few nights later, on the 15th at 1:05 am, other
nurses saw another set of lights, arranged in seven triangles,
peach or light orange in colour, which then changed to an arrow
then crescent shaped pattern before disappearing.

Additional field reports, photos, etc. available soon, as well
as for other formations at Midale, Saskatchewan, Drayton Valley,
Alberta and Vanderhoof, BC.


____________________________


The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which investigates the crop circle
phenomenon and other possibly related phenomena in Canada,
creating a liason between researchers, farmers, the public, the
media and scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma

CCCRN News is the e-news service of CCCRN, providing the
latest news, reports and updates, sent free to your e-mail.

To subscribe to CCCRN News, send a blank e-mail to:
cccrnnews-subscribe@topica.com

To unsubscribe from CCCRN News, send a blank e-mail to:
cccrnnews-unsubscribe@topica.com

CCCRN News Archive:
http://www.topica.com/lists/cccrnnews/read


CANADIAN CROP CIRCLE RESEARCH NETWORK

Main Office:
202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

Provincial Branches:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/contacts.html

Circle Phenomena in Canada 2001:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/circlescanada01.html

Fields of Dreams Webcast Radio Show:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/fieldsofdreams.html


� Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2001









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                        Cydonian Imperative: 09-20-01

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 19:52:03 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:20:51 -0400
Subject: Cydonian Imperative: 09-20-01


The Cydonian Imperative
9-20-01

NASA's "Search for Life" a Charade
by Mac Tonnies

http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

Since the Viking craft set sail for Mars in the mid-70s, NASA
has justified its interest in the Red Planet as the "search for
life." The Mars Pathfinder mission was an exception, with
geological goals coming first. But as new and better spacecraft
are deployed to Mars, such as the Mars Global Surveyor, it has
become painfully clear that NASA's desire to look for life on
Mars is at best a public relations charade. Evidence for
biochemistry in the Martian soil was quickly glossed over when
the Viking landers detected signs of organic activity, passing
two of the three tests for the life they were designed to
detect.

More recently, noted scientist and author Arthur C. Clarke's
remarks about apparent plantlife on Mars have been roundly
ignored, despite high-resolution images that clearly show
unknown phenomena that might be certainly be explained in
exobiological terms. In the meantime, additional evidence for
Mars as a living planet continues to mount, with Russian
astronomers reporting the presence of organic pigment in the
thin Martian atmosphere and a team of Hungarian scientists
concluding that the exotic-looking "Dalmatian spots" on Mars are
likely large colonies of moss or fungus adapted to its cold
environment.

The battle over the biochemical results obtained in the 70s
continues with rekindled vigor, and NASA has been flatly accused
of allowing its biased preconceptions of Mars as a lifeless,
Moon-like world to infect its public presentation of Mars. When
NASA employees are asked about the prospect of confirming life
on Mars, they're unanimous that such a discovery would be
excellent for NASA's planetary science budget. But after
examining NASA's history of conscientiously dodging the life on
Mars inquiry, one wonders just how "desirable" the discovery of
life on Mars actually is .

That NASA considers the "Face" and other anomalies to be
naturally occurring landforms almost goes without saying,
despite the singularly disturbing fact that NASA has yet to
perform any sort of reviewable scientific study that would bear
out this position. The new overhead image of the Face was
written off as natural because, according to one space agency
employee, it "reminded him" of a natural formation here on
Earth; to say this pronouncement mocks scientific method is
probably an understatement.

But while a spectator can see how the presence of possible
monumental architecture might weigh too heavily on existing
paradigms to be taken seriously by officialdom, the presence of
Martian "plants" is more difficult to attribute to human nature.
Curiously, it was NASA itself that proudly sported the Antarctic
meteorite as evidence of past life (never mind the fact that the
British had life-indicating meteorites catalogued and filed a
decade previously).

NASA is best viewed as a collection of disparate teams, each
with their own prejudices and budget pressures. For the last 25
years, NASA's Mars program has been handled exclusively through
the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL). The Mars scientists at JPL
are geologists, as is Dr. Michael Malin, controversial "owner"
of the Mars Orbiter Camera aboard the Surveyor spacecraft. JPL
officials realize all too well how precarious their situation
might become if life is detected on Mars: inevitably, biologists
would be called in, adding competition for the already
overburdened Mars budget.

The dichotomy is less a matter of whether there is life on
Mars--and the best evidence currently indicates there is--than a
hideously simple matter of staying employed. Priorities
shift--but only if those in charge allow them to. In Mars' case,
admitting evidence favorable to life or speculating on the
possibility only detracts attention away from the present
geological agenda. Even a jaded public finds the prospect of
Martian life interesting and worthy of pursuit. NASA and JPL
have capitalized on the implications of the idea to promote an
endless convoy of geological survey craft. The so-called "search
for life" goes on. And on.

Indeed, the "Search for Life" has become NASA/JPL's public
relations catch-phrase. Unfortunately, like most catch phrases,
it rings hollow under close examination. If anything is needed
to catalyze planetary exploration, a field that stagnated with
the demise of the Apollo program in the early 70s, it is the
discovery of life on our sister planet. But until science can
muster the foresight and savvy necessary to exploit the strong
possibility of Martian lifeforms, crewed missions to Mars will
remain purely fanciful. It is crucial that "office politics" are
not allowed to play a central role in the future of human Mars
exploration.

http://mactonnies/cydonia.html

end









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                  Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Cammack

From: Diana Cammack <cammack@eomw.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:34:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:25:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Cammack


 >Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:14:17 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology

 >>From: Diana Cammack <cammack@eomw.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >>Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:21:10 +0100

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:52:03 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>From: Diana Cammack <cammack@eomw.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >>>>Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:34:07 +0100

 >>>>>From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >>>>>To: <UFOUpdates@home.com>
 >>>>>Subject: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >>>>>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:05:33 -0600

 >>><snip>

 >>>>Collecting data in a passive manner - and how can it be anything
 >>>>else unless you can be proactive and set up your own experiement
 >>>>(e.g., do as CSETI and Greer used to do regularly, 'vector in'
 >>>>UFOs) - is not very rewarding.

 >>>Diane:

 >>>An "experiment" has just been conducted - the removal of all
 >>>commercial and General Aviation from the skies of North America
 >>>to create the conditions which haven't existed since maybe 1920.
 >>>This should provide a great opportunity to search for UFO
 >>>sighting reports and study the differences.

 >>Good point. Now let's see what data we get and compare these to
 >>data from a 'normal' day when America has 45% (I think I heard)
 >>of the world's flights.....

 >>We can also compare the data with a normal day in say, Africa,
 >>when no airplane flies over. (I live in a capital city but
 >>rarely see or hear a plane... it can be weeks...)

 >>So, for instance, did we have fewer sightings in the US when
 >>there were no airplanes than in a similar sized population of
 >>Africa when we have (almost) no airplanes?

 >>I venture to guess there would be more sightings in the
 >>USA.... And this brings us to the crux of the matter: how to
 >>compare data when you cannot hold the variables rigid.....

 >>I would say there are fewer sightings reported from Africa on a
 >>normal day because [1] Americans have a place to report
 >>sightings to, [e] because they are aware of UFOs and hardly
 >>anyone out here is.... And not necessarily because there are
 >>fewer UFOs!

<snip>

 >Hi Diane,

 >First, I want to say that I thought this was a thoughtful/well
 >written post. But this note isn't about that. :)

 >I've been wanting to ask you a few questions if I may, mostly
 >because I haven't taken the time to get to know you (shame on
 >me) and because of what is to this New Yorker, your 'exotic'
 >location. :)

 >You wrote:

 >>Not to belabour the point, I just think comparisons must be seen
 >>within a larger framework of multiple and changable variables...
 >>Its probably not science... Nonetheless, I am very keen to see
 >>the results!

 >Nothing scientific mind you, but do you happen to have a rough
 >estimate of the number of sightings in your area? And I ask in
 >spite of the fact that you mentioned the lack of reporting
 >centers in Africa. I just thought that because you have an
 >interest in the subject you might have a bit more 'local' info
 >than most.

 >For many years now and in many countries, people (myself
 >included) have been observing and recording (as best we can)
 >small white discs and spheres circumnavigating our skies in
 >broad daylight freely, and with complete impunity. I have
 >_hours_ of video that I have accumulated myself, and tape that
 >was submitted to me from people all over the world of these
 >white discs, and spheres.

 >I'm curious if you have ever seen or heard of anything similar
 >that may even have been 'videotaped/recorded' locally to you.

 >Also, what do you know of 'local' (if any) UFO abduction
 >reports? If you do know of any, could you please tell me if
 >there is any major deviation in terms of reported details, from
 >what you know of our 'Western' UFO abduction reports?

 >And thanx in advance for taking the time to respond to my
 >'nosey' questions Diane. Just curious. Inquiring minds want to
 >know!  :)

 >Regards from the 'New Heartland of Humanity' - New York -

 >John Velez ;)

John, The questions you ask are good ones, and similar to those
I have asked myself and others before.

African UFO reports have been collected in two books, and a
montly newsletter, all by Cynthia Hind, who as you will know,
lived and this year died in Harare, Zimbabwe. An intelligent,
kind and inspiring lady. She investigated abductions, contact
cases and sightings, and is most well known probably for her
study of a landing with ETs wandering about outside a school
ground in rural Zimbabwe. I believe she and John Mack
independently and together collected tales and drawings from the
kids. The report is in her second book (sorry, I have forgotten
the title).

She encouraged me to collect tales in Malawi (two countries
north of Zimbabwe) and I advertised in the press for reports of
odd events some years ago. You cannot ask for UFO stories
because the culture will sometimes label, say, ETs as 'ancestor
spirits' and these would not be reported if you limited yourself
to UFOs and ETs per se.

Unfortunately, I received little feedback, though over the years
I have managed to collect a couple stories.

One, in Zimbabwe, when a bunch of (white, ex-pat) teachers saw a
UFO when camping. Nothing special in that tale. Another came
from the press when a group of Malawian villagers saw a 'coffin'
shaped UFO fly over their village and the bush. I reported this
in Michael Lindeman's now defunct email newletter. They said
that this was not the first incident, and that someone had died
after being overflown by a UFO some time before. I was never
able to visit the village (quite remote) but I still think it
would be worth while. As for the death... well, 20% of folk
here have HIV and 60% of folk are malnourished, so young deaths
are common. Even these deaths are blamed on witchcraft.

Here nothing is ever straight forward... as people live with one
foot in the spirit world and feel that this affects their lives
daily... There was another sighting by white safari-camp
managers, when a UFO overflew their camp, but I have never
tracked these people down.....

I know of no video tapes, but perhaps there are some in
Cynthia's library. When I am next in Harare I will contact her
son and find out what has happened to her materials.

 From what I have read and heard, and from my discussions with
Cynthia, the sightings in Africa are much the same as elsewhere.
I do think that a lot of good work could be done out here,
especially because most of the population is not 'contaminated'
by UFO/ET movies, reports, news, etc. On the other hand you
would have to synthesize the reports and separate out the
spiritualist elements... Of course, some in the US UFO scene
would argue that the spiritual element is key to understanding
what is going on, so who knows!?

Does this answer your questions?


Diana








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                     How the Binch Stole Freedom (NOT!)

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 09:52:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:32:49 -0400
Subject: How the Binch Stole Freedom (NOT!)


Every U down in Uville liked U.S. a lot,
But the Binch, who lived Far East of Uville, did not.
The Binch hated U.S! the whole U.S. way!
Now don't ask me why, for nobody can say,
It could be his turban was screwed on too tight.
Or the sun from the desert had beaten too bright
But I think that the most likely reason of all
May have been that his heart was two sizes too small.

But, Whatever the reason, his heart or his turban,
He stood facing Uville, the part that was urban.
"They're doing their business," he snarled from his perch.
"They're raising their families! They're going to church!
They're leading the world, and their empire is thriving,
I MUST keep the S's and U's from surviving!"

Tomorrow, he knew, all the U's and the S's,
Would put on their pants and their shirts and their dresses,
They'd go to their offices, playgrounds and schools,
And abide by their U and S values and rules,

And then they'd do something he liked least of all,
Every U down in U-ville, the tall and the small,
Would stand all united, each U and each S,
And they'd sing Uville's anthem, "God bless us! God bless!"
All around their Twin Towers of Uville, they'd stand,
and their voices would drown every sound in the land.

"I must stop that singing," Binch said with a smirk,
And he had an idea--an idea that might work!
The Binch stole some U airplanes in U morning hours,
And crashed them right into the Uville Twin Towers.
"They'll wake to disaster!" he snickered, so sour,
"And how can they sing when they can't find a tower?"

The Binch cocked his ear as they woke from their sleeping,
All set to enjoy their U-wailing and weeping,
Instead he heard something that started quite low,
And it built up quite slow, but it started to grow--
And the Binch heard the most unpredictable thing...
And he couldn't believe it--they started to sing!

He stared down at U-ville, not trusting his eyes,
What he saw was a shocking, disgusting surprise!
Every U down in U-ville, the tall and the small,
Was singing! Without any towers at all!
He HADN'T stopped U-Ville from singing! It sung!
For down deep in the hearts of the old and the young,
Those Twin Towers were standing, called Hope and called Pride,
And you can't smash the towers we hold deep inside.

So we circle the sites where our heroes did fall,
With a hand in each hand of the tall and the small,
And we mourn for our losses while knowing we'll cope,
For we still have inside that U-Pride and U-Hope.

For America means a bit more than tall towers,
It means more than wealth or political powers,
It's more than our enemies ever could guess,
So may God bless America! Bless us! God bless!

(unknown)










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   Sep > Sep 21

                          Chilbolton Code Analysis

From: Claude DiDomenica <removed--ebk>
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:09:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:38:54 -0400
Subject: Chilbolton Code Analysis

[Non-subscriber Post]


Hello,

I just put together a Website for a friend that may be of
interest to your subscribers:

Chilbolton Code Analysis
Brian L. Crissey, Ph.D.
http://www.claudescommentary.com/special/chilbolton/

I also link to the site from the main page of my Website.

By the way, I do enjoy reading the varied opinions on your list.
I 'lurk' via the Web. :)


Regards,

Claude DiDomenica
Claude's Commentary Publisher, Author and Webmaster
http://www.claudescommentary.com/

"If a man make a better mouse-trap than his neighbor, though he
builds his house in the woods, the world will make a beaten path
to his door."

                                       --Ralph Waldo Emerson











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   Sep > Sep 21

               Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:29:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:40:43 -0400
Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Velez


 >Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:14:06 -0700
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?

 >>Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:08:43 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:05:57 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>>Could have been a balloon. What was the date and time? The wind
 >>>data is available from:

 >>>http://weather.unisys.com/archive/eta_init/0109/

 >>Dates and times above.

 >>Wind data (wind barb) indicates that on the 13th the prevailing
 >>winds were coming from offshore (roughly SE to NW) and on the
 >>14th from (roughly NE to SW.) Double check me Bob. I'm not a
 >>meteorologist and reading those weather maps makes my eyes go
 >>crossed. I "think" I read the wind data correctly though. What
 >>I'm not sure of is; what altitude do those wind readings
 >>represent? Both objects couldn't have been higher than a
 >>thousand feet or so. But then it's hard to determine altitude
 >>not knowing the size of the object(s) I was observing. Check out
 >>the maps for me and confirm or correct my reading of the wind
 >>data for those two days please.

 >Hello John,

 >Allow me to jump in here to point out that the weather map shown
 >in the above URL gives wind vectors for roughly the 5000 ft
 >level (850 millibar level), and for 00Z (midnight Greenwich
 >time) and 12Z times. So you'd need to interpolate between the
 >surface winds and those 5,000 ft winds, and also between 00Z and
 >12Z times to have a fair estimate. The winds were pretty weak on
 >the 14th 00Z and 12Z, perhaps only 3-5 mps, and hard to even
 >estimate on their crude chart. They could be somewhat variable
 >under such conditions at lower altitudes than 5,000ft.


Hiya Jim,

Thank you for the input. At last, someone who can find his own
butt if allowed to use both hands! (Reading those confusing
maps!) :)

I think my best bet is to visit the NY Times website and see if
I can track down the local weather report for the days in
question. Those national maps don't go into enough detail for
our purposes here. If you or anyone else can track down the
speed and wind direction info at roughly the 1000 ft. level for
New York City on the 13th and 14th it would be greatly
appreciated. I'll check out a couple of the newspaper sites
myself.

BTW, has anybody checked with Peter Davenport in Washington
about reported sightings during the grounding? Peter is "The
Man" to talk to about any reports that were submitted during
that week.

Thanks again for the help Jimbo.  :)


Warmest regards,

John Velez

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."










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   Sep > Sep 21

                           Happy 40th, Betty Hill

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:30:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:41:55 -0400
Subject: Happy 40th, Betty Hill



That is all.

... that, and lay low this weekend.











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                   Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:31:38 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 18:20:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Young


 >From: Diana Cammack <cammack@eomw.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:34:27 +0100

<snip>

 >Here nothing is ever straight forward... as people live with one
 >foot in the spirit world and feel that this affects their lives
 >daily...

<snip>

 >From what I have read and heard, and from my discussions with
 >Cynthia, the sightings in Africa are much the same as elsewhere.
 >I do think that a lot of good work could be done out here,
 >especially because most of the population is not 'contaminated'
 >by UFO/ET movies, reports, news, etc. On the other hand you
 >would have to synthesize the reports and separate out the
 >spiritualist elements... Of course, some in the US UFO scene
 >would argue that the spiritual element is key to understanding
 >what is going on, so who knows!?

Diana:

Sounds like there would be some significan cultural differences
which may make it very difficult to compare "non-aircraft" UFO
sightings between a significant part of Africa and North America
during the recent aviation grounding.

Thanks for the interesting info, though.


Clear skies,

Bob Young








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   Sep > Sep 21

               Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 18:05:21 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 18:24:41 -0400
Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding? - Ledger


 >Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:29:42 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?

 >>Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 14:14:06 -0700
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >>Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?

 >>>Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:08:43 -0400
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?

 >>>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:05:57 EDT
 >>>>Subject: Re: US UFO Sightings During Grounding?
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >><snip>

 >>>>Could have been a balloon. What was the date and time? The wind
 >>>>data is available from:

 >>>>http://weather.unisys.com/archive/eta_init/0109/

 >>>Dates and times above.

 >>>Wind data (wind barb) indicates that on the 13th the prevailing
 >>>winds were coming from offshore (roughly SE to NW) and on the
 >>>14th from (roughly NE to SW.) Double check me Bob. I'm not a
 >>>meteorologist and reading those weather maps makes my eyes go
 >>>crossed. I "think" I read the wind data correctly though. What
 >>>I'm not sure of is; what altitude do those wind readings
 >>>represent? Both objects couldn't have been higher than a
 >>>thousand feet or so. But then it's hard to determine altitude
 >>>not knowing the size of the object(s) I was observing. Check out
 >>>the maps for me and confirm or correct my reading of the wind
 >>>data for those two days please.

 >>Allow me to jump in here to point out that the weather map shown
 >>in the above URL gives wind vectors for roughly the 5000 ft
 >>level (850 millibar level), and for 00Z (midnight Greenwich
 >>time) and 12Z times. So you'd need to interpolate between the
 >>surface winds and those 5,000 ft winds, and also between 00Z and
 >>12Z times to have a fair estimate. The winds were pretty weak on
 >>the 14th 00Z and 12Z, perhaps only 3-5 mps, and hard to even
 >>estimate on their crude chart. They could be somewhat variable
 >>under such conditions at lower altitudes than 5,000ft.

 >Thank you for the input. At last, someone who can find his own
 >butt if allowed to use both hands! (Reading those confusing
 >maps!) :)

 >I think my best bet is to visit the NY Times website and see if
 >I can track down the local weather report for the days in
 >question. Those national maps don't go into enough detail for
 >our purposes here. If you or anyone else can track down the
 >speed and wind direction info at roughly the 1000 ft. level for
 >New York City on the 13th and 14th it would be greatly
 >appreciated. I'll check out a couple of the newspaper sites
 >myself.

 >BTW, has anybody checked with Peter Davenport in Washington
 >about reported sightings during the grounding? Peter is "The
 >Man" to talk to about any reports that were submitted during
 >that week.


Hi John and all,

Just thought I'd give you a heads up re. Canada's aircraft.
Everything is flying now, including general aviation.


Best,

Don Ledger









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   Sep > Sep 22

                                 An Ideology

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 21:37:33 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 08:09:41 -0400
Subject: An Ideology


Ignoring the facts doesn't change them. Ideology, a credo,
creed, weltanschauung, an outlook, a philosophy, a view.
Facts... well, you get the message.

Now for the point. It happens every time someone does something
which hasn't been done before. Or "said" before. Used to be in
the movies, when the elder generation of doctors heard Doctor
Lister talk about germs, or Doctor Freud about sex, or Pasteur
about little critters (see, UFOs are old!), they more than
demurred. Really kinda funny because Lister was a Stage Three
Syphilitic. And them little critters you can't see and therefore
don't exist were boring into his very soul.

Called them nuts. Persecuted them. "Bugs you can't see?" Hah!
Jerk! In those days it seems, no one went on fasts, diets or
hunger strikes. But there were Brobdignagians galore. And say,
did you guys know that Torontians, Sicilians and Brobdignagians
are all related? Betcha yous guys didn't know that.

Same philosophy applies to UFOs. To the Abduction Phenom.
"Swamp Gas... the Planet Venus... Serious. Yeah. And there's
Young Bob in skies clear. And Larry Hatch, calling for a beer.
And Stan Friedman, in his beard. And Docca Morty, quoting the
Beard ... Bard. Don't rhyme but I ain't no Lehmberg.

So what's the point? Simple. Nothing old is new again. And
nothing new is old again. La Mem Chose. See, if it's an old
thought, it's OK. Makes sense in the current pair of dimes.
Nothing old is new again.

But from the opposite view, nothing new is old again. See,
because like, old is not necessarily de rigor. Just because it's
current to most pairs of dimes, doesn't make it so. Engage.
ENGAGE DAMMIT! From this point of view, new is true.

Look at it this way so everyone may comprehend. Germs, or them
little bugs, are impossible to exist. Because you can't see
them. Nothing old is new again. From the opposite view, germs
exist because the empirical data proves they exist. Sure, we
have nothing with which to see them. But when surgeons wash
their hands, many more folks survive the surgery and live. When
they don't, people get fever and no amount of hot glasses on
warm bodies will make it better. And no number of leeches will
take the pain away and no amount of bleeding the poor bugger
will make the fever leave. Son of a gun. Nothing new is old
again.

UFOs. Can't prove they exist. UFOs. They exist because so many
people have seen them. Abductions by "entities!" Can't prove it
is so, because there is no way to prove they exist. (See UFOs)
Never mind that so many abductees have perceptions so real that
these exhibit as post trauma illnesses. Doesn't make sense
because, well, no one has actually seen a germ... I mean, no one
has actually seen a man or child or woman beamed aboard. You
know?

Nothing old can be newly defined. Just swamp gas. Willow the
wisp. A bit of undigested beef. I love each of you out there.
Even you, Dennis. Not just kidding. And Young Bob in his clear
skies. And even Fil Class. Gosh he's funny! In'he? Huh? And
Velez' peptic ulcer. And Lehmberg's angst. And my silly
fossifies. All good stuff. Even if we individually think it all
sucks big time.

Now for a Docca Morty _first!_ Another point. Yup. Read it first
here on UpDates. Con Permeso. Por Favor. S'il vous plais.
Biagierdi. Bitte. Up here on UpDates there are people who
proclaim to be what they are really not. Experts. Not even Ex
Spurts. This guy's got a gripe with guys who are too serious.
This one's got a gripe with guys who are not serious. This one's
got a gripe with the whole UFO thingy all over the place. And
the beat goes on. It was hate, not religion which motivated the
acts of September eleven. And hatred exhibits in many ways.
"Even Satan sometimes come - as The Man of Peace." Don't even
aks me to say who said that. Silly people.

All of that is OK with me. Just as long as no one... NO ONE...
ever ... tries to take from me, or you, or any man... any
human... his or her right to speak the language of peace and
truth undisguised, unfettered. Just because it ain't in our
lexicon don't make it untrue and worth the freaking rant! Got
that Dudes and Dudesses? Because sometimes, the truth is not to
be seen. Or tasted. It is to be felt within. Like the
redoubtable ... the formidable, peace. The peace of knowing that
when one speaks his truth, all can hear it and taste it and
smell it. It can be seen for all to view. Everyone.

Except the fools who sometimes come... as men of peace.

God bless us, Everyone.


Jim Mortellaro and Family

Firmly ensconced in our beautiful new home in UpState north
Country. Just south of where them Torontians live. Just a little
east of Porkville. And butting up against that formidable city
of Brobdignag. The city that never sleeps. Peace brothers.









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   Sep > Sep 22

                      The Best News In The Whole World

From: Jsmortell@aol.com
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 22:06:41 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 08:11:20 -0400
Subject: The Best News In The Whole World

Dear All...

Cookie, my little girl cousin, which is how I always see her, is
alive. Not too well, but alive. She was found by some State
Police friends of mine. Yeah, I still have a few. She had been
seriously ill with pneumonia and multiple fractures in a good
many bones in her body.

Under medication for pain and with a bad fever from the
pneumonia (which apparently was a reaction to the pulverized
concrete and Lord knows what all else she sucked into them
bronchs), she was unable to even guess who the hell she was.
When I saw her tonight, I could not weep. I'm all wept out. Was
on my way up to the North country, on the phone with some guy
named Lehmberg, when a call came in and then another, and
another. And I wound up in an uptown Manhattan hospital looking
down on the most beautiful face I've seen in a long time ...
excepted my wifey and of course, the wondrously pouting Pia. A
woman of great proportions in all the right places.

Thank you for your prayers. And your good thoughts. And mostly,
thank you for writing to me. So many mails. And so few females.
(sigh)


Jim, Rosemarie, StupidTwo and the Mortellaro family of Palermians









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                               STS 51, 75, 80?

From: Leigh Blackmore <troswell51@optusnet.com.au>
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 20:24:59 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 08:18:52 -0400
Subject: STS 51, 75, 80?


Hello,

Trying for information and views on the UFO footage from
Shuttles STS 51, 75, 80.

Have received a lot of conflicting info regarding these
sightings. Can anyone shed some light on this subject?

Regards

Leigh Blackmore








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                Re: The Best News In The Whole World - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 10:03:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 10:35:15 -0400
Subject: Re: The Best News In The Whole World - Velez


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 22:06:41 EDT
 >Subject: The Best News In The Whole World
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Dear All...

 >Cookie, my little girl cousin, which is how I always see her, is
 >alive. Not too well, but alive. She was found by some State
 >Police friends of mine. Yeah, I still have a few. She had been
 >seriously ill with pneumonia and multiple fractures in a good
 >many bones in her body.

 >Under medication for pain and with a bad fever from the
 >pneumonia (which apparently was a reaction to the pulverized
 >concrete and Lord knows what all else she sucked into them
 >bronchs), she was unable to even guess who the hell she was.
 >When I saw her tonight, I could not weep. I'm all wept out. Was
 >on my way up to the North country, on the phone with some guy
 >named Lehmberg, when a call came in and then another, and
 >another. And I wound up in an uptown Manhattan hospital looking
 >down on the most beautiful face I've seen in a long time ...
 >excepted my wifey and of course, the wondrously pouting Pia. A
 >woman of great proportions in all the right places.

 >Thank you for your prayers. And your good thoughts. And mostly,
 >thank you for writing to me. So many mails. And so few females.
 >(sigh)


Hello Jim,

A 'found' survivor! That _is_ great news! Especially considering
how many people are still desperately searching local hospitals
for their loved ones. Could you please send me her _name_ and
_which hospital_ she's in so me and Margie can send her a card
or some flowers? I'm sure she'll enjoy the well wishes and note
of support.

If you don't mind,...

I'll pass the information on to my wife's cousin Paul Vitello.
He's a Pulitzer Prize winning feature writer for Newsday. I'm
certain he'll want to write an article about it so that others
may be able to share in your joy and maybe even hold out some
hope for their own loved ones.

It would be an important story to publish. So many have lost
family members and friends that an inspirational story such as
yours would lift many hearts in what is a dark time for so many.

Wonderful news. We're happy and relieved for you and your
family.


John Velez

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









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   Sep > Sep 22

                         Re: STS 51, 75, 80? - Oberg

From: James Oberg <JamesOberg@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 11:12:59 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 12:20:35 -0400
Subject: Re: STS 51, 75, 80? - Oberg


 >From: Leigh Blackmore <troswell51@optusnet.com.au>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: STS 51, 75, 80?
 >Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 20:24:59 +1000 >>

The following links may contribute to this discussion, and
STS-75 is currently a topic at the www.junjun.com whisper's UFO
BB:


STS-29 Radio Message

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&safe=off&threadm=xb9_4.79086%24VM3.606631%
40news.infostrada.it&rnum=8&prev=/groups%3Fq%3DUFO%2BOberg%2Bsolve%26hl%3Den%26s
afe%3Doff%26rnum%3D8%26selm%3Dxb9_4.79086%2524VM3.606631%2540news.infostrada.it


STS-37

http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/news2/shut.html


STS-48

Larry King Show (June 26, 1992)

http://userfs.cec.wustl.edu/~sl17/lksts.html

Summary debunking (June 28, 1992)

http://www.debunker.com/texts/sts48_ufo.html

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/ufo990217.html

and

http://www.rense.com/ufo2/stss.htm

Data files:

http://www.igs.net/~hwt/zigzag.html

July 1995 open letter to Kasher:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=oberg+STS+UFO&start=50&hl=en&safe=off&rnum=59&
selm=9506248066.AA806610506%40CC.IMS.DISA.MIL

Horizon-shift

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=oberg+STS+UFO&start=50&hl=en&safe=off&rnum=51&
selm=19991101180303.13748.00001088%40ng-fw1.aol.com

My big study:

area51.upsu.plym.ac.uk/~moosie/ufo/txt/sight/027.htm

and

http://bedlam.rutgers.edu/ufo/oberg.txt

in four parts:

http://ufos.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ufobbs.com%2F
txt1%2F045.html

Mike Bara's Critique:

http://www.lunaranomalies.com/rebuttal.htm

My response to Bara:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=oberg+STS+UFO&hl=en&safe=off&rnum=9&selm001204
135420.08448.00002511%40ng-mk1.aol.com


STS-63

Proponent: http://www.rense.com/general/sts.htm

and

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=oberg+STS+UFO&start=10&hl=en&safe=off&rnum=11&
selm=11131-3A6A5CB2-9%40storefull-152.iap.bryant.webtv.net


STS-75

CSICOP first report (Skeptical Inquirer Electronic Digest, Feb. 22, 2000 ):

http://www.csicop.org/list/listarchive/msg00018.html

My assessment: http://www.sightings.com/general/stsd.htm

and

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=oberg+STS+UFO&start=60&hl=en&safe=off&rnum=68&
selm=8ff31i%246jd%241%40uranium.btinternet.com

response from proponent: http://www.rense.com/general/stsfoot.htm

and

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=oberg+STS+UFO&start=10&hl=en&safe=off&rnum=1

7&selm=38D8F2FC.9F5A5130%40conspiracy.com

Note from Chuck Shaw:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/may/m01-017.shtml


More STS-75 back-and-forth

http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicsg2.html


STS-80
debunked by me:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/feb/m20-015.shtml

and

http://www.aliensonearth.com/archive_/people/o/oberg/doc/sts80.txt

and

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=oberg+STS+UFO&start&hl=en&safe=off&rnum=23&sel
m=19991116113909.10937.00000047%40ng-cf1.aol.com


STS-101

http://www.rense.com/general/sts101.htm
http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/a2000/jun/a.htm

X-15 stories

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=UFO+Oberg+X-15&hl=en&safe=off&rnum=3&selm01062
1094309.19514.00000475%40ng-fy1.aol.com


Letter to Paula Zahn (Dec 29, 1999)
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=oberg+STS+UFO&start=30&hl=en&safe=off&rnum=34&
selm=19991230143206.16052.00000087%40ng-fn1.aol.com

Strange Shuttle Sights: Unearthly and Mundane
http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/phenomena/shuttle_ufos_991213.html

Some Notorious 'Anomalous' Shuttle Events
http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/phenomena/shuttle_ufos_examples_991213.html

Shuttle TV: Is What We See What NASA Gets?
http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/phenomena/shuttle_tv_991227.html








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   Sep > Sep 23

              Re: The Best News In The Whole World - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 10:52:01 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 14:48:12 -0400
Subject: Re: The Best News In The Whole World - Mortellaro

 >Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 10:03:37 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: The Best News In The Whole World


 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 22:06:41 EDT
 >>Subject: The Best News In The Whole World
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Dear All...

 >>Cookie, my little girl cousin, which is how I always see her, is
 >>alive. Not too well, but alive. She was found by some State
 >>Police friends of mine. Yeah, I still have a few. She had been
 >>seriously ill with pneumonia and multiple fractures in a good
 >>many bones in her body.

 >>Under medication for pain and with a bad fever from the
 >>pneumonia (which apparently was a reaction to the pulverized
 >>concrete and Lord knows what all else she sucked into them
 >>bronchs), she was unable to even guess who the hell she was.
 >>When I saw her tonight, I could not weep. I'm all wept out. Was
 >>on my way up to the North country, on the phone with some guy
 >>named Lehmberg, when a call came in and then another, and
 >>another. And I wound up in an uptown Manhattan hospital looking
 >>down on the most beautiful face I've seen in a long time ...
 >>excepted my wifey and of course, the wondrously pouting Pia. A
 >>woman of great proportions in all the right places.

 >>Thank you for your prayers. And your good thoughts. And mostly,
 >>thank you for writing to me. So many mails. And so few females.
 >>(sigh)


 >Hello Jim,

 >A 'found' survivor! That _is_ great news! Especially considering
 >how many people are still desperately searching local hospitals
 >for their loved ones. Could you please send me her _name_ and
 >_which hospital_ she's in so me and Margie can send her a card
 >or some flowers? I'm sure she'll enjoy the well wishes and note
 >of support.

 >If you don't mind,...

 >I'll pass the information on to my wife's cousin Paul Vitello.
 >He's a Pulitzer Prize winning feature writer for Newsday. I'm
 >certain he'll want to write an article about it so that others
 >may be able to share in your joy and maybe even hold out some
 >hope for their own loved ones.

 >It would be an important story to publish. So many have lost
 >family members and friends that an inspirational story such as
 >yours would lift many hearts in what is a dark time for so many.

 >Wonderful news. We're happy and relieved for you and your
 >family.


 >John Velez

Thank you for your offer, John. Cookie's husband is a retired
firefighter. Her daughter is a macher on the SNL show for years.
I shall ask them if they wish to share their story with the
world.

Right now, she is in a state of goophy with pain killers
and waning pneumonia. I will get back to you with this.

Best,
Jim








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                         Re: STS 51, 75, 80? - Oberg

From: James Oberg <JamesOberg@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:29:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 14:52:23 -0400
Subject: Re: STS 51, 75, 80? - Oberg


 >From: Leigh Blackmore <troswell51@optusnet.com.au>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: STS 51, 75, 80?
 >Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 20:24:59 +1000 >>


Leigh, which 'STS-51' video are you referring to? If it's the clip at:

http://www.artbell.com/video/sts51ufo.avi

you'll notice there's an EVA crewman on an MMU, docking to a PAM
comsat, which occurred on STS 51-A, a wholly different mission
from STS-51.

If this is the one, the blob looks similar to one on STS-37 that
was examined in 1993 and found to be a droplet on the inside of
the overhead window, as viewed by a hand-held 16-mm camera.


Jim Oberg







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   Sep > Sep 23

                    (Update #2) Formation Report 2001 #17

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 17:57:40 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 14:54:15 -0400
Subject: (Update #2) Formation Report 2001 #17


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

September 23, 2001

_____________________________


(UPDATE #2) FORMATION REPORT 2001 #17 - RED DEER, ALBERTA


An aerial photo is attached, courtesy of Jeff Challoner
(reddeer01.jpg). Others will be available soon as well and added
to the web site. The field has been combined around the
formation, except for one swath where the farmer had initially
mistakenly gone through it before realizing what he had found.
The exact positioning on the tramlines (again not common here
like in Europe) is similar to the 'Tree of Life' formation in
England in 1997 for example, and many of the early pictogram
formations there in the late 1980s/early 1990s.

Also, it appears that the formation was created sometime during
the night of September 1/2, as another pilot has now reported
seeing it on September 2 and the farmer has said the field was
definitely empty on September 1 when they were doing spraying.
If so, it is interesting that such a religious/spiritual symbol
would appear (which has not happened before in Canada as far as
we know) just a few days before the tragic and indeed
world-changing events of September 11. A matter of speculation
only at this point of course, but worth considering. It went
publicly unreported until September 16 when discovered
separately by the farmer during combining. The formation,
basically hexagonal, can be viewed as a 'Star of David' although
it is a variation thereof with the additional circles added to
it. The setting is also beautiful, more closely resembling the
countryside of England than the typically flat prairies (the
formation is near a picturesque hill, similar to the English
hills and mounds). Jeff, a minister in nearby Red Deer, said he
felt a 'gut feeling' that the hill and surrounding area were a
'holy place'.

____________________________


The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which investigates the crop circle
phenomenon and other possibly related phenomena in Canada,
creating a liason between researchers, farmers, the public,
the media and scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma

CCCRN News is the e-news service of CCCRN, providing the
latest news, reports and updates, sent free to your e-mail.

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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Sep > Sep 23

                Re: The Best News In The Whole World - Jones

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 19:29:37 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 14:55:40 -0400
Subject: Re: The Best News In The Whole World - Jones


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 22:06:41 EDT
 >Subject: The Best News In The Whole World
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Dear All...

 >Cookie, my little girl cousin, which is how I always see her, is
 >alive. Not too well, but alive. She was found by some State
 >Police friends of mine. Yeah, I still have a few. She had been
 >seriously ill with pneumonia and multiple fractures in a good
 >many bones in her body.

 >Under medication for pain and with a bad fever from the
 >pneumonia (which apparently was a reaction to the pulverized
 >concrete and Lord knows what all else she sucked into them
 >bronchs), she was unable to even guess who the hell she was.
 >When I saw her tonight, I could not weep. I'm all wept out. Was
 >on my way up to the North country, on the phone with some guy
 >named Lehmberg, when a call came in and then another, and
 >another. And I wound up in an uptown Manhattan hospital looking
 >down on the most beautiful face I've seen in a long time ...
 >excepted my wifey and of course, the wondrously pouting Pia. A
 >woman of great proportions in all the right places.

 >Thank you for your prayers. And your good thoughts. And mostly,
 >thank you for writing to me. So many mails. And so few females.
 >(sigh)

Jim, and for all those that are interested.

There is also good news about Amanda. On the Sunday before the
fateful day, Amanda and her fianc decided to take a week off,
and go into the country, with no phones, TV, or any disruption
to their private time.

She is devastated by the events, and thank God for Alex
"cajoling" her into a short notice break.

Regards

Sean









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   Sep > Sep 23

                           Re: AA Puppet - Rebecca

From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:52:48 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 16:19:42 -0400
Subject: Re: AA Puppet - Rebecca


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
 >Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 12:48:02 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: AA Puppet

Serge,

I'm leaving your entire post intact because I haven't seen any
comment on it:

 >First I would like to thank Dave Vetterick, Ed Gehrman and Neil
 >Morris for sending me the two AA CDs. The deal was to post some
 >opinion on the List.

 >The following may or may not have been discussed somewhere...

 >Can someone explain to me how it was possible to cut around the
 >skull of the creature without, at some point, putting the body
 >on its belly?

 >Take a piece of wood (2x4 will do nicely), put it on a table and
 >try to make a half-inch deep cut around it with a saw, without
 >turning the piece of wood.

 >Impossible.

 >But this is what the guys in the film have managed to do.

 >Proof that the body has not been turned over:

 >File 09-un-numbered.avi, frame 2087
 >After extraction of the brain

 >Note the V-shaped bloodstain between the legs of the creature
 >and the position of the right hand.

 >Go to: 05-reel61.avi, frames 2089-2107
 >Head has not been touched

 >Same V-shaped blood stain at the exact same place. The position
 >of the body on the table has not changed. The right hand is in
 >the same position. And I believe that, if the body had been
 >turned, the large bloodstain would have been smudged.

 >Another giveaway is the left thoracic skin flap. It changes
 >between 04-reel59.avi, frame 1515 (before removal of the
 >internal organs) and 07-reel63.avi, frame 1347 (internal organs
 >removed, people working on peeling of the skin of the head). But
 >the flap remains unchanged through 09-un-numbered.avi, frame
 >1711, where the top of head has been sawed out and the brain
 >removed.

 >Many observations make this autopsy unauthentic: no photographs
 >but a camera incapable of close shots, the impossibility to
 >identify any one, attention focused on the gory aspects of the
 >autopsy. No measuring whatsoever, no weighing of organs and...
 >where are the damn jars filled with conservation liquids to put
 >the organs in? Did they let them rot? No study of the orifices:
 >a vagina examined without spreading the legs, no examination of
 >the mouth or the ear ducts. And, of course, the creature had no
 >back side.

 >As for the "Debris footage", gimme a break. Carefully framed to
 >avoid showing any human face in there: gosh, only hands. No
 >recognizable faces in one film, and lots of faces - but all
 >masked - in the other (including an out of the room, window-
 >protected secretary).

 >Notice: all that could be identifiable had been carefully taken
 >out of play: faces (bare ones hidden), organs and discrete
 >features (out of focus).

 >This is AhAh, not AA.


 >Regards,

 >Serge Salvaille


Have you received any comments that you can share with the rest
of UpDates? I would be most interested in what Neil and/or Ed or
anyonone elsse, for that matter, have had to say on your
comments.

I'm glad to see _someone_ comment on their viewing of the AA
CDs. I was beginning to wonder if anyone had seen them.
Presently, I am in a situation which doesn't allow me the
opportunity to view them, so I do appreciate your comments.

If you are able, I would love to see any feedback that you have
received.

Your idea about not being able to cut around the puppet's head
is an interesting point and it is one that I have not seen
raised anywhere else. Now, if I only could view everything
again, I might have a better understanding of it all.


Thanks,

Rebecca







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   Sep > Sep 24

                    Erik Beckjord - A Man With No Shame?

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 17:31:21 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 08:45:52 -0400
Subject: Erik Beckjord - A Man With No Shame?


Well, it hasn't taken the wackos long to seize the moment and
jump on board the WTC wagon. Read below and try not to puke.

Though Beckjord says it isn't a joke, no one would take half of
what he says seriously. Bigfoot "expert", Loch Ness Monster
hunter, UFOs - and now Beckjord can add 'security consultant' to
his growing list of jack-of-all-trades and master of
none... excuse me while I puke now...

Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM
"Don't Trip On Your Open Mind"


-----


Beckjord, Hanson & MacGillivray
Security and Management Consultants
817 Columbus ave.,no.161,SF,CA.
All mail to Box 9502,Berkeley,CA 94709
415-974-4339, fax 510-843-0154


If you plan to fly, ask the airline "DO YOU HAVE LOCKED STEEL
DOORS FOR THE PILOT CABIN?"

If they say no, DO NOT FLY WITH THEM, pick another airline that
does.

If hijackers know this is in effect, they will NOT BOTHER TO
TRY.


Also: once on, search your seat and under it, and in cabinets, and next to
your seat, for hidden box cutters and knives planted by clean-up crew
assisting hijackers.

Also: in air, to disable hijackers, as a LAST resort, open
emergency door or emergency window a crack, if you can, try to
be tied in with seat belt or other straps, and DECOMPRESS THE
PLANE. Pilot will have to dive plane to get to lower altitude.
In some cases, this may crash the plane, but this is better than
dying by smashing into the Empire State Building and killing
thousands.

Also: the Beckjord Blanket Blocking technique can enable you to
fend off a knife with folded blanket while you and others hit
hijackers with anything you can - fists, laptop, trays,bottles,
your pulled-out belt with heavy buckle at end, even shaken
champagne (in first class),etc.

Also: Use pillows in same manner, or loose food trays,
books,etc.

Also: Self defense must start at FIRST HINT of a hijacker. Do
NOT delay, and do NOT vote, just act, and urge all to help you.

Also: Carry on an umbrella or a cane, and use this to TRIP any
hijacker or hit them. Even a ten year old child can trip
someone. Once fallen down, passengers must disable or even kill
the hijacker - it is your life at stake. No more Mr. Nice Guy...
No more victims. You must be AGGRO and never passive.

Also: Muslims abhor pig meat. Do not laugh, but if you bring on
canned Spam, which is pig meat, you can open it and throw bits
at them, to force them back. You must chant: "Pig meat!" over
and over. Some, not all, will recoil and back off.

Also: before hijackers can act, we must INFILTRATE AND DIVERT
THEM. One way is to consider their flaws. Some hijackers were
promised 72 virgins in heaven by Allah if they killed Americans.
Some of them were found to be in strip clubs in cities in the
USA prior to the attacks. Some also got drunk the night before,
despite Muslim law. Now let us consider that single young
Islamic men are sexually deprived. Prostitution is rare in
Islamic countries. The only way to get sex is to marry. Sexual
frustration is high.

To SUBVERT members of the bin Laden org, we must drop false
morality and use SEX to subvert these men where we can.

This is not a joke. There is no "ho,ho.ho".. but to do this, we
need to offer what spies have always offered in all wars and
pre-wars -- --- Free Sex. Instead of 72 virgins (maybe) if you
die, we should offer 72 free nights with patriotic call girls or
72 free nights at the Mustang Ranch in Nevada.  (Now stop the
sniggering...intelligence services have always offered enticing
women to get secret info.) At one time, the US Gov't owned the
Mustang Ranch due to back taxes, and the US Gov't operated the
Ranch. This might happen again... or a fee can be paid to the
owners and/or the women in any state.

This is dead serious. Not a joke. We need to offer sex and money
to any bin Laden org. member to DEFECT and reveal their plans
and locations.

If bombs do not do it, if bullets do not do it, SEX AND CASH
WILL.

If you are offended by this reality, we regret it, but this is
WAR!!!!


ERIK BECKJORD

Calls not from media are returned collect.

PASS COPIES TO FIVE OTHERS, WHO PASS THIS TO FIVE MORE, EACH,
UNTIL WE COVER THE WORLD. Put on all lists you are on.








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 24

                Norwegian Search For 'Silent Helicopter' UFO

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 11:57:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 11:57:46 -0400
Subject: Norwegian Search For 'Silent Helicopter' UFO



From: UFO UpDates - Toronto

Source: Ananova.com

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_406540.html


Norwegian Police Search For 'Silent Helicopter' UFO


Police in Norway are searching for a UFO described by witnesses
as being like a silent helicopter.

Three witnesses believe the craft was going to crash into the sea
when they called the authorities.

Officers in Mosjen haven't found any evidence of the craft.

"They were three sober and trustworthy people and we have no
reasons to doubt them," says Roar Tgersen from Helgeland
police.

The witnesses were sitting in a car when they saw the object
flying low over the city.

Story filed: 14:01 Monday 24th September 2001








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   Sep > Sep 24

              Re: Erik Beckjord - A Man With No Shame? - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 09:03:56 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:44:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Erik Beckjord - A Man With No Shame? - Gates


 >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Erik Beckjord - A Man With No Shame?
 >Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 17:31:21 -0700

 >Well, it hasn't taken the wackos long to seize the moment and
 >jump on board the WTC wagon. Read below and try not to puke.

 >Though Beckjord says it isn't a joke, no one would take half of
 >what he says seriously. Bigfoot "expert", Loch Ness Monster
 >hunter, UFOs - and now Beckjord can add 'security consultant' to
 >his growing list of jack-of-all-trades and master of
 >none... excuse me while I puke now...

 >Regards,

 >Royce J. Myers III
 >UFOWATCHDOG.COM
 >"Don't Trip On Your Open Mind"


 >-----


 >Beckjord, Hanson & MacGillivray
 >Security and Management Consultants
 >817 Columbus ave.,no.161,SF,CA.
 >All mail to Box 9502,Berkeley,CA 94709
 >415-974-4339, fax 510-843-0154


 >If you plan to fly, ask the airline "DO YOU HAVE LOCKED STEEL
 >DOORS FOR THE PILOT CABIN?"

What this individual fails to realize is that all airliners have the "same"
type door that gets into the cockpit

 >If they say no, DO NOT FLY WITH THEM, pick another airline that
 >does.

 >If hijackers know this is in effect, they will NOT BOTHER TO
 >TRY.

They will anyways, of course the instant the flight crew saw us
groping around the seat searching for knives and other weapons,
as these folks suggest, we would probably be suspected as being
hijackers.

Likewise attempting to bring on cans of SPAM.....  I deleted out
the rest of the post, but what a joke in all.

Cheers,

Robert








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   Sep > Sep 24

                              99 Pink Balloons

From: Tim Mathews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:19:59 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 16:11:45 -0400
Subject: 99 Pink Balloons


Dear All,

At the Leeds International UFO conference held this last
weekend, Russell Callaghan of UFO Magazine (UK version) showed
some "world exclusive UFO video footage" taken by Chris Martin
over South London recently.

(This was on the Sunday. The highlight of the w/end was Georgina
Bruni, on the Saturday, whose lecture was excellent.)

Russell would have us believe that this is significant footage
when, in fact, he e-mailed his doubts to a colleague of mine a
while ago. I should like to know why a leading member of the
British UFO research community continues to insist that this is
"MAJOR UFO" footage when he knows very well that the "object"
filmed was in fact a garland of pink balloons released after a
Gay Rights event in London held at the same time as the "UFO
incident".

The portion of Russ's e-mail to my colleague reads thus, and I
quote:

"---- Original Message -----
From: "Russel Callaghan" <russ@ufomag.co.uk>
To: XXXXXXXXXXX
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2001 3:52 PM
Subject: RE: MAJOR UFO FOOTAGE SHOT BY CHRIS MARTIN


Hi XX

I think it is one of two things.

Garland of balloons.

But I ask 'why use expensive helium to fill balloons that are
not intended to fly'?

Check out this photo from the day before the sighting.

The parade took place in London not far from where Chris filmed
the object on the Sunday afternoon. It could one of the same but
what Chris filmed appears to be quite a bit larger than the
display.

Catford is about 2 miles from Lewisham and those daring young
fools and their Wind Buggies race on common land there. It has
been suggested that we are seeing one of the 'Large Kites' used
to pull the buggies. Good suggestion but the cloud base where
the object appears to drop into was put at around 6,000ft. Well
a two mile cable on a kite would be quite something, unless of
course its one that broke loose.

Looking at the size of the object I would not want to be in a
light aircraft flying towards it, I'm sure it could do serious
damage to a prop or air intake and who knows what it would do to
a jet intake? The object is most likely to have a mundane
explanation, but by getting the information together and having
material to back up our suggestions (of what it might be) we are
seen to be doing something about it and not just denying or
ridiculing it.

We leave that to the debunkers."

-----

Is this another example of don't believe the hype?


Tim Matthews, British UFO Studies Centre

................................................................

ADVERT

BUFOSC Dave Kelly Memorial Conference 2001
(In Conjunction with Wyrd Magazine)
Waterloo Community Centre,
Waterloo Rd,
Runcorn, Cheshire,
Saturday 17th November

Featuring

Steve Jones (Britain's first Pagan Magistrate) on Hooded Entities
Tim Matthews on Circular Dreams - Dr. Schauberger's Saucer
Lynda Matthews on Incidents of High Strangeness
Eric Morris/Tim Matthews - Situation Update - UFOs in Cheshire and
Beyond...(new cases from North Wales)
Matthew Williams - Crop Circles - Weird, Wonderful and Why I Made Them

Overhead and Video Projection.
Wyrd magazine ON SALE!

Proceeds to Cat's Protection League (Dave's charity of choice)
Tickets now available from;
BUFOSC, 78 Greenall Rd, Northwich, Cheshire CW9 5RN.
Tel; (01606) 330567 and (07903) 256530.

"Better than the UFO Magazine Conference at half the price!"








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   Sep > Sep 24

                        Re: Secrecy News -- 09/21/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@igc.org>
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 10:45:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 20:06:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Secrecy News -- 09/21/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
September 21, 2001


**      CIVIL LIBERTIES IN WARTIME
**      STATE DEPT MULLS "BOOK BURNING"


CIVIL LIBERTIES IN WARTIME

An exceptionally diverse coalition of citizens' groups, law
professors and others came together last Thursday to urge that
the nation's response to terrorism be pursued "calmly and
deliberately with a determination not to erode the liberties and
freedoms that are at the core of the American way of life."

"We can, as we have in the past, in times of war and of peace,
reconcile the requirements of security with the demands of
liberty," according to a declaration issued by the ad hoc
coalition.

"We need to ensure that actions by our government uphold the
principles of a democratic society, accountable government and
international law, and that all decisions are taken in a manner
consistent with the Constitution." See:

  http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/

This message appears to have been widely internalized by
government officials and political leaders of both parties. It
is hard to find anyone who is out to "trash the Constitution."

"We're going to do everything we can to harmonize the
constitutional rights of individuals with every legal capacity
we can muster to also protect the safety and security of
individuals," Attorney General John Ashcroft said on September
18.

"We are a democracy," said House Majority Leader Dick Armey
yesterday. "What we are trying to save is our civil liberties."

Draft legislation introduced by the Justice Department has some
questionable features, but Senate leaders said that the proposal
will not be rubber stamped. A September 19 draft of the proposed
legislation with critical analysis may be found here:

  http://www.cdt.org/security/010911response.shtml

A rather intelligent dialogue on "civil liberties in wartime"
was published September 17-21 in Slate.com between Stewart
Baker, former NSA General Counsel, and Eugene Volokh, a UCLA
professor of constitutional law.

Baker analyzed the new wiretap measures adopted by the Senate
September 13 and concluded that "If this is the worst threat our
liberties face, we're doing very well indeed."

Volokh noted that one must assess not only the direct impact of
proposed new laws, but also the potential for abuse that they
inadvertently create and the capacity of oversight to detect
abuse. "Properly run [such laws] might intrude on privacy only
in constitutionally permissible ways -- if we can trust the
government to properly run them," he wrote.

The week-long dialogue begins here:

  http://slate.msn.com/dialogues/01-09-17/dialogues.asp?iMsg=2

One of the most sensible proposals around is that any new
anti-terrorism legislation that is adopted in the current threat
environment "should come with a sunset provision, requiring the
law to lapse after two years unless it is reenacted," as argued
by Yale law professor Bruce Ackerman in the Los Angeles Times on
September 20.

"The rise of terrorism undoubtedly requires a serious debate
over the proper balance between liberty and security in the 21st
century. But Congress should not provide permanent answers when
we have not even begun to ask the right questions."

See "Sunset Can Put a Halt to Twilight of Liberty" here:

  http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-092001ackerma
  n.story


STATE DEPT MULLS "BOOK BURNING"

The Department of State is under growing pressure from the
Central Intelligence Agency to destroy its inventory of an
official history of U.S. relations with Greece during the 1960s
and to replace it with a new, sanitized version.

Some 1500 copies of "Foreign Relations of the United States
(FRUS), 1964-1968, volume XVI" on US policy towards Greece,
Cyprus, Turkey have been printed. But they have been withheld
from circulation because of last minute concerns raised by the
CIA.

The sticking point appears to be a handful of documents that
allude to CIA intervention in the electoral process in Greece
some 35 years ago. CIA officials claim that release of such
documents could upset current relations with Greece or even
provide a pretext for terrorism. Similar claims that delayed the
release of another FRUS volume on Indonesia earlier this year
proved unfounded.

A CIA proposal to dispose of the existing inventory of the FRUS
volume on Greece and to reprint the volume without the offending
documents "has been bruited for weeks," according to one
government historian familiar with the situation.

"Every time the subject is raised in my presence, I mention
those dread words 'cover up.' Or at least they should be dread
words. It seems to me that the existence of the volumes is too
well known. Destroying them would be a huge public relations
disaster for the U.S. government," the historian said on
September 20. "Book burning is definitely not a politically
correct thing to do."

"I don't know why the Agency is so over-the-top on this issue,"
the historian said. "Maybe they really do know more than they're
telling us."

Director of Central Intelligence George J. Tenet has gotten
personally involved in the matter, attempting to enlist the help
of Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage in blocking
release of the official history.

According to one source, Mr. Tenet contacted Mr. Armitage to
discuss the matter as recently as the night of September 10, at
a time when his attention might have been more profitably
directed elsewhere. A State Department official would not
confirm or deny that the September 10 conversation took place.

The suppression of the FRUS volume was reported by the
Washington Post on August 17. It was discussed in an August 12
article in the Greek press here:

  http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/08/gr081201.html

******************************

Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:

  subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:
  http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web: www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691








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   Sep > Sep 25

                          Re: AA Puppet - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 18:25:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 07:54:00 -0400
Subject: Re: AA Puppet -  Salvaille


 >Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:52:48 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com
 >Subject: Re: AA Puppet
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca
 >>Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 12:48:02 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: AA Puppet

Hello Rebecca,

<snip>

 >I'm leaving your entire post intact because I haven't seen any
 >comment on it:

 >>First I would like to thank Dave Vetterick, Ed Gehrman and Neil
 >>Morris for sending me the two AA CDs. The deal was to post some
 >>opinion on the List.

 >>The following may or may not have been discussed somewhere...

 >>Can someone explain to me how it was possible to cut around the
 >>skull of the creature without, at some point, putting the body
 >>on its belly?

 >>Take a piece of wood (2x4 will do nicely), put it on a table and
 >>try to make a half-inch deep cut around it with a saw, without
 >>turning the piece of wood.

 >>Impossible.

 >>But this is what the guys in the film have managed to do.

 >>Proof that the body has not been turned over:

<snip>

 >Have you received any comments that you can share with the rest
 >of UpDates? I would be most interested in what Neil and/or Ed or
 >anyonone elsse, for that matter, have had to say on your
 >comments.

 >I'm glad to see _someone_ comment on their viewing of the AA
 >CDs. I was beginning to wonder if anyone had seen them.
 >Presently, I am in a situation which doesn't allow me the
 >opportunity to view them, so I do appreciate your comments.

 >If you are able, I would love to see any feedback that you have
 >received.

 >Your idea about not being able to cut around the puppet's head
 >is an interesting point and it is one that I have not seen
 >raised anywhere else. Now, if I only could view everything
 >again, I might have a better understanding of it all.

<snip>

Thanks for your comments.

I guess that most people have had enough of the AA story. That
might explain the lack of interest.

As for the comments I received, let me point out that there has
been some kind of misunderstanding: the initial deal was to get
the CDs, analyze them, _then_ post something on the Updates.

My post annoyed quite a few people who wanted to avoid an endless
debate on the List. I was told that the initial deal was that all
would be kept within the confines of a web site appropriate for
healthier exchanges. I was not supposed to post on the List! All
in all, I managed to pull out the initial 'contract' with Dave
Vetterick. It proved (yet another time) that evidence is more
reliable than memory and that Alzheimers had struck again.

So, I can talk on the List, provided I also send the post to
Dave.

As for some feedback. The only one I got was from Ed Gehrman:

"I don't feel it is necessary to turn the creature over to get at
the brain. There is some missing footage but I believe it's
possible to ascertain the procedures."

If I have my bearings rights, Ed de facto recognizes that the
creature was not turned over at any time during the course of the
autopsy. This is a very important point.

If I still have my bearings right, it is impossible to cut around
a 2x4 on a table without turning over the damn piece of wood.
This is not an opinion.

This is a fact.

Since the alien body was not turned over but had its skull cut
around and its brain extracted, there is only one inescapable
conclusion: no frame is missing, the film is a complete frame up
(pun intended).

Regards,

Serge


P.S.: For up-to-date information of the various people who
presumably got the CDs and current critics, go to:

http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/aafilm/

My text should be there some time around, but don't expect my
picture! ;)











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   Sep > Sep 25

                                 Tell Cookie

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 20:07:53 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 07:56:30 -0400
Subject: Tell Cookie


Hello All, and with Errol's permission,

I've spoken to Cookie. She sounds weak but the lady's got a lot
of Moxie. For those of you who know not what Moxie is, well, you
gotta be my age or older. It was a soft drink way back when. And
it was supposed to be loaded with stuff. God knows specifically
what, but everybody drank it, to the extent that people used to
use the phrase, "He's got a lot of Moxie!"

You may wish to send her a line. A lot of people sent their
prayers her way. Her email is:

TELLCOOKIE@AOL.COM

A positive word would, I am certain, be welcome. She does not
know that the Internet had her on a special wavelength to the Big
Guy.

My very good friends will have her landline number if they wish
to commisserate, however I would give her a little time to get
her strength back.

To my good friends, a mail with her phone will follow shortly.


Fondly and with great appreciation,

The Mortellaro's








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                   Re: Could These Account For Some UFOs?

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 20:32:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 07:58:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Could These Account For Some UFOs?



 From Monday's, 09-24-01, Manchester, New Hampshire, newspaper,
'The Union Leader', page A5, "Military tools could hunt low-tech
enemies", re: unmanned spy drones/planes:

     The eerie-looking windowless planes can hover for up to 40
     hours, transmitting high-resolution pictures and video to
     the Pentagon in near real time










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                         Re: 99 Pink Balloons - Hale

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 01:33:02 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 08:03:42 -0400
Subject: Re: 99 Pink Balloons - Hale


 >From: Tim Mathews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:19:59 EDT
 >Subject: 99 Pink Balloons
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Dear All,

 >At the Leeds International UFO conference held this last
 >weekend, Russell Callaghan of UFO Magazine (UK version) showed
 >some "world exclusive UFO video footage" taken by Chris Martin
 >over South London recently.

<snip>

 >Russell would have us believe that this is significant footage
 >when, in fact, he e-mailed his doubts to a colleague of mine a
 >while ago. I should like to know why a leading member of the
 >British UFO research community continues to insist that this is
 >"MAJOR UFO" footage when he knows very well that the "object"
 >filmed was in fact a garland of pink balloons released after a
 >Gay Rights event in London held at the same time as the "UFO
 >incident".


Hello Tim,

Glad to see you back on stage. The footage you refer to,
concerning what you call "balloons", I have some questions
about, for which I need answers.

I saw the picture, in UFO Magazine, which showed a triangled
arrangement of tightly welded and centrally aligned balloons.
This in my eyes, would make the balloons fly in a tight
formation, or central point on manoeuvre. Yet in the film by
Chris (I have been given the chance view the footage close-up)
the object seems to flex it's entire shape - from a collective
mass of formed objects, to a widened almost horseshoe
appearance? Surely, if this object were to be the balloons let
off from some kind of parade, then some fundamental questions
need be addressed?

Can a pivoted and aligned set of balloons, alternate in such a
flexed shape, when the tight central point of the balloons would
surely make such an event hard to achieve, even in such
conditions as high altitude?

Secondly, what measurements do you have for the set of
"balloons" you put this footage down to? I grant you, that the
colour of the object is reddish, but is that all we should go
on?

Another thing that I would point people to, would be when the
object fly's into a cloud base, you then begin to realize the
size of the object.

Thirdly, on close inspection of the footage, you also realize
that the object (s) are actually formed in a swirled motion,
almost like the way some metal rods are layered, in a woven
fashion?

Also, if the object were to be balloons, what would stabilize
the balloons at the same height throughout most of the film?
Surely the case would be, that if these were balloons from a
festival of some kind, then I would imagine that helium of some
kind would be use to allow the balloons to reach some height?
Does helium allow for sustained floatation in one part of the
sky, enough for Chris to capture for more than five minutes?

Forward your data on the balloons at this festival, and your
study of the footage, and I will gladly review your comments on
this case.


Regards,

Roy









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             Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Easton

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 03:07:07 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 08:05:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Easton


 >Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 02:38:21 +0100
 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001

Roy wrote:

 >I am also under the growing impression that you are a PR agent
 >for Jenny, perhaps in some time to come, Jenny would like to
 >openly comment on these communications, before other people push
 >her to far into the firing line of other questions, which may
 >arise from this MoD exchange?

Roy,

Although I haven't seen any UpDates posts for week or more, I'm
sure the clarification to your comments is that I probably
highlighted how pathetic and woeful it was that anyone should
question Jenny's contributions to 'ufology'.

They are immense, landmark and can be found in any good book
store.


I have since noted:

 >From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:05:24 -0600
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:24:13 -0400
 >Subject: Connors' Undisputed Facts in Ufology

...that Wendy surmised of ufology's progress:

"Little steps, little steps....."

Perhaps my point was, it might be productive if some of these
were actually 'forward'.


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk









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                         Antonio Ribera 1920 - 2001

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:44:41 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 08:09:26 -0400
Subject: Antonio Ribera 1920 - 2001


Hello Folks,

Josep Guijarro, editorial member of the Spanish magazine "Mas
All", informed us today that the pioneer of Spanish ufology,
Antonio Ribera, died on Sunday, September 23.

Born in 1920, he was among the founders of Centro de Estudios
Interplanetarios (CEI) in 1958 and became one of the best known
ufologists from Spain and author of a lot of books and articles
about UFOs.


Best regards









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                           Re: AA Puppet - Morris

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:34:09 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 09:19:43 -0400
Subject: Re: AA Puppet - Morris


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: AA Puppet
 >Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 18:25:25 -0400

 >>Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:52:48 -0700 (PDT)
 >>From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com
 >>Subject: Re: AA Puppet
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com


 >I guess that most people have had enough of the AA story. That
 >might explain the lack of interest.


Serge,

I would think the lack of response reflects rather the lack of
people on this List with "hands on" knowledge of autopsy room
practice.

 >As for some feedback. The only one I got was from Ed Gehrman:

 >"I don't feel it is necessary to turn the creature over to get at
 >the brain. There is some missing footage but I believe it's
 >possible to ascertain the procedures."

 >If I have my bearings rights, Ed de facto recognizes that the
 >creature was not turned over at any time during the course of the
 >autopsy. This is a very important point.

 >If I still have my bearings right, it is impossible to cut around
 >a 2x4 on a table without turning over the damn piece of wood.
 >This is not an opinion.

 >This is a fact.

 >Since the alien body was not turned over but had its skull cut
 >around and its brain extracted, there is only one inescapable
 >conclusion: no frame is missing, the film is a complete frame up
 >(pun intended).


I too have no experience of the procedures, but did come across
the following description of "brain removal" during an autopsy,
it does _not_ mention turning the body:



REMOVING THE BRAIN

The diener takes the body block out from under the patient's
back and places it under the back of the head. This elevates the
head so that it is positioned as if it were on a very thick,
stiff pillow. The diener uses a scalpel to cut from behind one
ear, over the crown of the head, to behind the other ear. Like
with the trunk incisions, this one is deep, all the way to the
skull. The skin and soft tissues are now divided into a front
flap and a rear flap. The front flap is pulled (this takes some
strength) forward (like being "scalped") over the patient's
face, thus exposing the top and front of the skull. The back
flap is pulled backwards over the nape of the neck. The whole
top hemisphere of the skull is now exposed.

The diener takes an electric saw (typically called a "Stryker
saw," even if it's not manufactured by Stryker) and makes cuts
around the equator of the cranium. This cut must be deep enough
to cut all the way through the skull, but not so deep that the
brain is cut (this takes some skill). Typically, the cut is not
totally straight but has a notch so that the skull top
(calvarium) will not slide off the bottom half of the skull
after everything is sewn back up. After this cut, the calvarium
is removed and set aside. As the calvarium is lifted off, there
is a very characteristic sound that is sort of a combination of
a sucking sound and the sound of rubbing two halves of a coconut
together. The best recorded representation of this sound that I
have heard is in the brain transplant scene of the film
Robocop 2.

The outer layer of the meninges (the coverings of the brain),
called the dura, stays with the calvarium, so that the top of
the brain is now fully exposed. After the chore of getting to
it, it is a relatively easy matter to get the brain out. There
are no tough ligaments that hold the brain in, so really all
that needs to be done is to cut the spinal cord and the dural
reflections that go between the cerebellum and cerebrum (called
the tentorium). The brain is then easily lifted out.

Since the brain is very soft and easily deformable, it is not
manipulated at the time of the autopsy. Instead it is hung up by
string in a large jar of formalin (a 10% solution of
formaldehyde gas in buffered water) for two weeks or longer. The
action of formaldehyde is to "fix" the tissue, not only
preserving it from decay, but also causing it to become much
firmer and easier to handle without deforming it. The reason
that it is suspended by string is to prevent it from having a
flattened side from lying in the bottom of the jar (the brain is
heavier than water and therefore sinks).

<End>


Note. Mention is made of a "body block" in the above, this is
_not_ used in the AA film. Back in 1995 this point was noted but
when various medical people were questioned about this it
transpired the block was _not_ always used, particularly back in
the period(and earlier) in which the AA was allegedly filmed.


Neil

-------------------------------------------








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                           Re: AA Puppet - Rebecca

From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 06:12:07 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 09:22:19 -0400
Subject: Re: AA Puppet - Rebecca


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: AA Puppet
 >Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 18:25:25 -0400

 >Thanks for your comments.

 >I guess that most people have had enough of the AA story. That
 >might explain the lack of interest.

Yes, well I'm sure there's a lack of interest. The thing has
been a done deal, IMO, for years now. But in the spirit of
stupidity, I'm still willing to read what others have to say.

 >As for the comments I received, let me point out that there has
 >been some kind of misunderstanding: the initial deal was to get
 >the CDs, analyze them, _then_ post something on the Updates.

Sounds like a good plan.

 >My post annoyed quite a few people who wanted to avoid an
 >endless debate on the List. I was told that the initial deal
 >was that all would be kept within the confines of a web site
 >appropriate for healthier exchanges. I was not supposed
 >to post on the List! All in all, I managed to pull out the

What could be more healthy than UpDates?

 >initial 'contract' with Dave Vetterick. It proved (yet another
 >time) that evidence is more reliable than memory and that
 >Alzheimers had struck again.

Oh well, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I would not have seen
them otherwise.

Rather than a healthy exchange, it appears to me (just from
reading this message, not from visiting the website) that this
group of people are trying to control the comments. Not very
open-minded, IMO.

 >So, I can talk on the List, provided I also send the post to
 >Dave.

 >As for some feedback. The only one I got was from Ed Gehrman:

 >"I don't feel it is necessary to turn the creature over to get
 >at the brain. There is some missing footage but I believe it's
 >possible to ascertain the procedures."

Missing footage? Hmmm. That's a new one. Thought we were seeing
continuous film.

 >If I have my bearings rights, Ed de facto recognizes that the
 >creature was not turned over at any time during the course of
 >the autopsy. This is a very important point.

 >If I still have my bearings right, it is impossible to cut around
 >a 2x4 on a table without turning over the damn piece of wood.
 >This is not an opinion.

Thanks for sharing this. I've done my own little experiment and
have come to same conclusion. However, I haven't seen the video
in years, so, I don't remember when/where/how the brain footage
was shown. Doesn't matter at this point, since I'm not
commenting on the CDs.

 >This is a fact.

 >Since the alien body was not turned over but had its skull cut
 >around and its brain extracted, there is only one inescapable
 >conclusion: no frame is missing, the film is a complete frame
 >up
 >(pun intended).

HAH!

Thanks for sharing!

 >P.S.: For up-to-date information of the various people who
 >presumably got the CDs and current critics, go to:

 >http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/aafilm/

 >My text should be there some time around, but don't expect my
 >picture! ;)

Rats!


All the best,

Rebecca







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                        Re: 99 Pink Balloons - Rolfe

From: Chris Rolfe <astratech@supanet.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:34:19 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:40:33 -0400
Subject: Re: 99 Pink Balloons - Rolfe


 >From: Tim Mathews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:19:59 EDT
 >Subject: 99 Pink Balloons
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Dear All,

 >At the Leeds International UFO conference held this last
 >weekend, Russell Callaghan of UFO Magazine (UK version) showed
 >some "world exclusive UFO video footage" taken by Chris Martin
 >over South London recently.

<snip>


Dear Tim,

I was talking to someone the other day, and they told me
something interesting.

Weather balloons according to the met office are sent up daily
at 06:00 and 18:00 hrs from the following locations: Hemsby,
Hertmonceux, Brize Norton, Wattisham.

This person stated that Chris Martin holds personal skywatches
at 18:00 hrs most days? If true, then I leave this one to make
up your own conclusions?

But of course it could be just a coincidence?


Chris Rolfe
UFOMEK/UFO-TREK.








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             Re: Norwegian Search For 'Silent Helicopter' UFO -

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 07:12:54 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:49:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Norwegian Search For 'Silent Helicopter' UFO -

 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
 >Date: Monday, September 24, 2001 8:59 AM
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Norwegian Search For 'Silent Helicopter' UFO

 >Source: Ananova.com

 >http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_406540.html

 >Norwegian Police Search For 'Silent Helicopter' UFO

 >Police in Norway are searching for a UFO described by witnesses
 >as being like a silent helicopter.

 >Three witnesses believe the craft was going to crash into the sea
 >when they called the authorities.

 >Officers in Mosjen haven't found any evidence of the craft.

 >"They were three sober and trustworthy people and we have no
 >reasons to doubt them," says Roar Tgersen from Helgeland
 >police.

 >The witnesses were sitting in a car when they saw the object
 >flying low over the city.

 >Story filed: 14:01 Monday 24th September 2001

Hello, all, EBK.

Back on July 19th or thereabouts exactly the same thing happened
in Port Orford Oregon, in full view of four different people-
except this was called a gyrocopter, and acutally was seen
crashing and sinking.

The Area off Battle Rock  Park is open ocean but realitivley
shallow, not more than 25-30 ft. at its deepest. The locals know
this area like the back of their hands. The Coast Guard was
called. Nothing repeat nothing was found, not even an oil slick.
As with the Norwegian case the four in question were solid
citizens, one running the local visitor's center. I will try to
send a copy of the article from the local paper-Port Orford
Today. it will be a PDF format for the acutal issue of July
19th. Let me know if it does not work.


[Didn't --ebk]










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                           Alfred's Odd Ode #353a

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 09:12:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:52:29 -0400
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #353a



UFOs shall not depart, except to leave our minds. Distracted, we
are looking _less_ (and we've never searched our skies). As now
we have a new 'excuse' to clutter up the view, our 'leadership'
must sigh relief to see that bill's not due...


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the scurrilous.










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                          Re: AA Puppet - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:20:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:53:47 -0400
Subject: Re: AA Puppet - Salvaille


 >Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:34:09 +0100
 >From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: AA Puppet


 >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: AA Puppet
 >>Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 18:25:25 -0400

 >>>Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:52:48 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com
 >>>Subject: Re: AA Puppet
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com


Neil,

<snip>

 >I too have no experience of the procedures, but did come across
 >the following description of "brain removal" during an autopsy,
 >it does _not_ mention turning the body:

 >REMOVING THE BRAIN

<snip>

 >The diener takes an electric saw (typically called a "Stryker
 >saw," even if it's not manufactured by Stryker) and makes cuts
 >around the equator of the cranium. This cut must be deep enough
 >to cut all the way through the skull, but not so deep that the
 >brain is cut (this takes some skill).

<snip>

Yes, Neil, an _electric saw_, a _Stryker saw_. What is a Stryker
saw? Imagine a "T". The horizontal bar of the "T" is the blade
and you hold the saw by the vertical bar. Hence, the body does
not need to be turned over if you want to cut around the skull. A
"body block" will necessarily be useful is this case.

In the AA film, the job is done with a _hand saw_.

So, if I have my bearings right, you, along with Ed, recognize
that the creature was not turned over at any time during the
course of the autopsy. This is a crucial point.

Do you recognize that it is impossible, using a hand saw, to cut
around a 2x4 on a table without turning over the damn piece of
wood?

Do you?

And what is the inescapable conclusion?


Regards,

Serge









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              Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Hale

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:34:03 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:57:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001 - Hale


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World September 2001
 >Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 03:07:07 +0100

 >Roy,

 >Although I haven't seen any UpDates posts for week or more, I'm
 >sure the clarification to your comments is that I probably
 >highlighted how pathetic and woeful it was that anyone should
 >question Jenny's contributions to 'ufology'.

 >They are immense, landmark and can be found in any good book
 >store.


James,

I am in no doubt that Jenny has played her role in the better
understanding of UFOs, both from the public and media slants.
And I acknowledge here time as a researcher and investigator
and author, within the UFO subject.

But are you telling me, that this means that Jenny some how
becomes unquestionable within this subject? Let's remember, all
humans are fallible and we all make mistakes, say the wrong
things, and cause errors within aspects of our lives. I am not
saying this is in relation to anything that may involve Jenny
and UFO research, but if these letters do exist, and they happen
to bear some relation to the Bentwaters case, then surely like
many other pieces of documentation' it should be allowed to be
reviewed, by those interested parties.

The question here is not Jenny, but the content of these
communications with the MoD. I hope soon to be able to read the
above letters, and, once I have, I shall send my views on their
content.


Regards,

Roy..










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                    Norway Mystery 'Chopper' Crash, Etc.

From: Chris Rolfe <astratech@supanet.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:28:38 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:43:36 -0400
Subject: Norway Mystery 'Chopper' Crash, Etc.


How odd? We had a similar incident here in Kent, England.

On August 27, 2001 at 18:15 hours a train driver on the Romney,
Hythe & Dymchurch Railway (a small gauge steam train line),
spotted an unusual aircraft flying very low over houses, which
suddenly disappeared in a puff of smoke. Other witnesses between
the villages of Dymchurch and Ruckinge also reported seeing it.

Lydd airport officials said that they had no record of aircraft
being in the area at that time. The Police, Fire and Ambulance
services from Folkestone, Hythe, New Romney, and Ashford took
part in a three hour search of the area. Even calling in a
Police helicopter with heat seeking equipment. Nothing was
found, and no aircraft reported missing.

 From eyewitness descriptions the plane is believed to be a
Canard of the Long EZ or Varieze type The operation was
co-ordinated by the emergency services Control unit based at St.
Marys'in the Marsh, with assistance from Lydd Airport.


Chris Rolfe
UFOMEK/UFO-TREK









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   Sep > Sep 25

                         CCCRN News: Various Updates

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 18:05:54 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:45:46 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Various Updates



CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

September 25, 2001

_____________________________


VARIOUS UPDATES


A few quick updates and notices:

FORMATION UPDATES

Aerial photos are now posted on the web site for Red Deer,
Vanderhoof and the seven formations at Midale, Saskatchewan. The
Midale photos are primarily still images from the CCCRN digital
video footage that we took. There are also links to ground
reports by Judy Arndt (CCCRN field research assistant and Crop
Circle Quest) for the Drayton Valley and Red Deer formations.
Each formation report page also has a listing of any relevant
news articles or other media pieces. Additional aerial and
ground photos will be added as soon as I can get them scanned. I
am also working on the lay and measurement diagrams and field
reports for Midale. Links to individual formation reports are
here:

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/circlescanada01.html

As Andy Thomas kindly pointed out to me, the Red Deer 'Star of
David' formation is very similar, almost identical, to a
formation at Pegsdon Hills, Bedfordshire in England, July 28,
2000.

The aerial video of the Midale formations is available, both in
quicktime format (1 minute, 2.3 MB) and VHS (about 5 minutes,
edited to the best shots). We were able to tape several of these
formations very soon after their appearance, before anyone else
entered them as far as we know, with no entry tracks visible.
These are the more typically Canadian type wheat fields, with no
tramlines. For two of the formations, Midale #1 and Midale #5,
you can see the entry tracks that we made ourselves to gain
access before we were able to fly over them in those cases;
these were not there initially, except for one odd 'unknown'
track at Midale #4 (the 'backwards 7'). A copy of the quicktime
clip will be added to the web site as well. The VHS version does
show the ground lay, etc. in more detail; if anyone would like a
copy, let me know.


EARTHFILES REPORTS

Linda Moulton Howe is doing updates on the Canadian formations
this year for her science reports on the Dreamland radio program
with Whitley Strieber. A web copy of her first report (Red
Deer), is now posted on her Earthfiles web site (Midale and
other formations will be covered in subsequent reports):

http://www.earthfiles.com/earth282.htm


JEFF RENSE RADIO SHOW

I will be giving an update on the Canadian formations this year
for the Jeff Rense radio program this evening, September 25,
along with Graham Conway of UFOBC:

http://www.rense.com


FIELDS OF DREAMS WEBCAST RADIO SHOW

The next Fields of Dreams radio program on October 3, CCCRN's
own webcast radio show for the Night Search Paranormal Network
(NSPN) , will be a special update and overview of this year's
events:

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/fieldsofdreams.html


THE PRAIRIE CIRCULAR NEWSLETTER

Finally, but not least, I am working on a print newsletter for
CCCRN, The Prairie Circular. This is particularly useful for
people who do not yet have web access, including many farmers,
etc. who have expressed interest in the phenomenon. Subscription
rates (modest and affordable) and other information will be
available soon. While the focus is on the phenomenon in Canada,
contributions from other researchers, etc. is certainly welcome.


____________________________


The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which investigates the crop circle
phenomenon and other possibly related phenomena in Canada,
creating a liason between researchers, farmers, the public, the
media and scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma

CCCRN News is the e-news service of CCCRN, providing the latest
news, reports and updates, sent free to your e-mail.

To subscribe to CCCRN News, send a blank e-mail to:

cccrnnews-subscribe@topica.com


CCCRN News Archive:

http://www.topica.com/lists/cccrnnews/read


CANADIAN CROP CIRCLE RESEARCH NETWORK

Main Office:
202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

Provincial Branches:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/contacts.html

Circle Phenomena in Canada 2001:

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/circlescanada01.html

Fields of Dreams Webcast Radio Show:

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/fieldsofdreams.html


� Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2001









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   Sep > Sep 25

                   Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #353a - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:51:48 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:49:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #353a - Mortellaro


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #353a
 >Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 09:12:22 -0500


 >UFOs shall not depart, except to leave our minds. Distracted, we
 >are looking _less_ (and we've never searched our skies). As now
 >we have a new 'excuse' to clutter up the view, our 'leadership'
 >must sigh relief to see that bill's not due...


Dear Al, All, Errol,

In the name of my father, his son and the holy wives (all wives
are holy - it's the law!), I say unto yous, that this truth
which you've utttered (and sputtered - the tome is unlike your
other Ode's, that is to say too short - like unto me) is
absolute. The Founding Fathers are turning over in their graves
from the bite of that which our bleeders have brought upon us.
Lies. Feeding the frenzy of those who disbelieve in an effort to
confused the rest of us and US.

There are those who would say about the above run-on, unclear
and obtuse phrases, "Huh!?"  To those I say, "Duh!?" And leave
it to Beaver Cleaver. He'll eat anything.


Jim Mortellaro
Baby it's COLD up here!









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                           Re: AA Puppet - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:40:37 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 07:39:09 -0400
Subject: Re: AA Puppet - Gehrman


 >>Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:34:09 +0100
 >>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: AA Puppet

 >>>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: AA Puppet
 >>>Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 18:25:25 -0400

 >>>>Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 12:52:48 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>>From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com
 >>>>Subject: Re: AA Puppet
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Neil,

 ><snip>

 >>I too have no experience of the procedures, but did come across
 >>the following description of "brain removal" during an autopsy,
 >>it does _not_ mention turning the body:

 >>REMOVING THE BRAIN

 ><snip>

 >>The diener takes an electric saw (typically called a "Stryker
 >>saw," even if it's not manufactured by Stryker) and makes cuts
 >>around the equator of the cranium. This cut must be deep enough
 >>to cut all the way through the skull, but not so deep that the
 >>brain is cut (this takes some skill).

 ><snip>

 >Yes, Neil, an _electric saw_, a _Stryker saw_. What is a Stryker
 >saw? Imagine a "T". The horizontal bar of the "T" is the blade
 >and you hold the saw by the vertical bar. Hence, the body does
 >not need to be turned over if you want to cut around the skull. A
 >"body block" will necessarily be useful is this case.


The footage shows that the brain was removed without cutting
around the skull. The procedure described in 'Removing the
Brain" was close to the mark sans the Stryker saw.

I will agree that the creature was never turned over to expedite
the removal of the brain and that the saw was a hand saw.

But Serge, as I've mentioned before, this discussion should be
happening on the web page Dave has patiently created just for
this purpose. I don't feel comfortable discussing this with you
on UpDates because we had all agreed to discussing our findings
with those folks receiving the AA CDs, before we posted to
UpDates or other Lists.

This wasn't an attempt to limit the discussion; it's simply
impossible to discuss the AA in any intelligent or knowledgeable
manner without having a copy of the AA CDs.

Why don't you follow the protocol and send your photo and
misgivings to Dave?


Ed








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                  E.T. Life Seminars At York U. In Toronto

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 20:11:09 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 07:49:48 -0400
Subject: E.T. Life Seminars At York U. In Toronto


Hi Everyone,

York University will be presenting a series of seminars in the
coming weeks that will be of interest to UFO UpDates readers.
Various well known and qualified speakers with backgrounds in
science, theology, etc. will give talks as part of 'The Quest
for Contact: In Search of Extraterrestrial Life' series of
seminars. Below is a brief summary of some of the scheduled
talks.


  Title: Extraterrestrials in History and Culture
  Speaker: Steven J. Dick (U.S. Naval Observatory)
  Date: October 19, 2001

  Title: Searching for Extraterrestrials
  Speaker: Seth Shostak (SETI Institute)
  Date: November 30, 2001

  Title: Discovering ET, Discovering God
  Speaker: Christopher J. Corbally (Vatican Observatory)
  Date: January 18, 2002

  Title: First Contact: What if...?
  Speaker: Panel Discussion - host Bob McDonald (CBC -TV)
  Date: March 6, 2002

For further information about this series of seminars, contact me
or Prof. Bernie Lightman (416-736-5164 or lightman@yorku.ca).

Nick Balaskas










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   Sep > Sep 26

                        Re: Secrecy News -- 09/25/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@igc.org>
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:42:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 07:51:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Secrecy News -- 09/25/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
September 25, 2001


**      AIRING THE CIVIL LIBERTIES DEBATE
**      EVIDENCE AGAINST BIN LADEN REMAINS SECRET


AIRING THE CIVIL LIBERTIES DEBATE

Despite a widespread sense of urgency and some impatience with
the usual niceties of political debate, a serious discussion of
national security and civil liberties in the aftermath of the
September 11 terrorist attacks is underway in Washington.

To its credit, the Senate Intelligence Committee held an open
hearing September 24 on proposals for legislative changes to
intelligence and counterterrorism policy. Several provisions of
these proposals would expand the government's ability to conduct
surveillance on Americans, or otherwise raise civil liberties
issues.

Unlike the more widely publicized Judiciary Committee hearings,
the Intelligence Committee invited witnesses from
non-governmental organizations, including the Center for
National Security Studies and the Center for Democracy and
Technology.

Most of the witnesses disagreed with several aspects of the
pending legislation. In a number of respects, they also
disagreed with each other. The resulting record is highly
informative. It is too early to say whether or how it will shape
the Senate's actions, but it already permits a more informed
public assessment of these complex issues.

The prepared testimony from the September 24 Senate Intelligence
Committee hearing is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2001_hr/index.html

A September 21 statement by Intelligence Committee Chairman Bob
Graham introducing his proposed bill (S.1448) "to enhance
intelligence in the prevention of terrorism" may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2001_cr/s092101.html


EVIDENCE AGAINST BIN LADEN REMAINS SECRET

The principal evidence linking Usama Bin Laden to the September
11 terrorist attacks will remain classified, despite some recent
equivocation suggesting that release of a report on the subject
was imminent.

Although Bin Laden has been named by Secretary of State Powell
as the "prime suspect," the precise nature of what he is
suspected of has not been clearly spelled out. Did he plan the
September 11 attacks? Finance them? Incite them?

Clearly, he did incite such attacks. In a 1998 declaration of
"Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders" he called upon his followers
to "kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and
military -- in any country in which it is possible to do it."
See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm

But yesterday officials defended their decision not to release
more specific information, citing the sensitivity of
intelligence sources.

"In a democracy it's always important to provide the maximum
amount information possible," said White House spokesman Ari
Fleischer at a September 24 press briefing. "But I think the
American people also understand that there are going to be times
when that information cannot immediately be forthcoming." See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/09/wh092401.html

State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said release of
further "evidence" was not immediately planned.

"As we find information that is unclassified, we'll try to make
it available," he said. "There's no particular fixed date or
target at this point for doing that in a big show or anything."
See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/09/dos092401.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:

subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691








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                           Re: AA Puppet - Morris

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 07:35:13 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 08:54:45 -0400
Subject: Re: AA Puppet - Morris


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: AA Puppet
 >Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:20:12 -0400

 >>Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:34:09 +0100
 >>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: AA Puppet


 >>The diener takes an electric saw (typically called a "Stryker
 >>saw," even if it's not manufactured by Stryker) and makes cuts
 >>around the equator of the cranium. This cut must be deep enough
 >>to cut all the way through the skull, but not so deep that the
 >>brain is cut (this takes some skill).

 ><snip>

 >Yes, Neil, an _electric saw_, a _Stryker saw_. What is a Stryker
 >saw? Imagine a "T". The horizontal bar of the "T" is the blade
 >and you hold the saw by the vertical bar. Hence, the body does
 >not need to be turned over if you want to cut around the skull.
 >A "body block" will necessarily be useful is this case.

 >In the AA film, the job is done with a _hand saw_.

Hi Serge,

Yes it is a bone saw, and also the correct surgical instument
for the job as used in that alleged period.

As I said in my original response, medical opinion of autopsy
procedures from that time indicated the use of the body block
varied, it seemed to be a personal preference wether it was used
or not, it was not obligotary.

 >So, if I have my bearings right, you, along with Ed, recognize
 >that the creature was not turned over at any time during the
 >course of the autopsy. This is a crucial point.

No. That conclusion cannot be made, although the segments of the
AA film cover a large portion of the procedures carried out on
the body, the available film ends abruptly at the extraction of
the brain, other later procedures could have been carried out.

Another point raised back in 1995 by people with a medical
background regarding the "autopsy" was that what was seen should
have been more accurately labelled a "dissection" rather than an
autopsy.

 >Do you recognize that it is impossible, using a hand saw, to cut
 >around a 2x4 on a table without turning over the damn piece of
 >wood?

 >Do you?


Not particularly impossible no, being a long suffering DIY
enthusiast and given a good sharp handsaw!. And we are not
dealing with cutting _through_ a 2x4 or a skull for that matter,
but only delecately cutting through a few mm's of bone into the
skull cavity, tricky and in need of a skilled hand maybe, but
impossible?, I think not.

 >And what is the inescapable conclusion?


How was it done _before_ electric bone saws??.


Neil.









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                   Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 03:58:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 08:53:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology - Velez


 >From: Diana Cammack <cammack@eomw.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:34:27 +0100

 >>Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 16:14:17 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology

 >>>From: Diana Cammack <cammack@eomw.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Undisputed Facts In Ufology
 >>>Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:21:10 +0100

<snip>

Hi Diana,

Sorry for delay in response. "Sometimes" I have to take time
away from UpDates in order to earn the money that allows me to
continue to enjoy the pleasure of posting to the List.  :)

 >Does this answer your questions?

Yes Diana thank you.  ;)

It would be neat if somebody could catalogue and publish Cynthia
Hind's material. I am especially interested in the reported
'details' of any African UFO abductions. (For the purpose of
comparing notes with the many Western reports I have been sent
over the years.)

 >Of course, some in the US UFO scene would argue that the spiritual
 >element is key to understanding what is going on, so who knows!?

"Who knows" is absolutely correct Diane. Although I have had
_undeniable_ (for me) experiences that have convinced me that
the phenomenon is 'physically' real, I have put off arriving at
any conclusions regarding its 'purpose' or 'origin'
indefinitely. At least until something comes along that proves
to be solid and reliable in terms of information or evidence.

We cannot trust our own government to 'come clean' on its own
with any information they may have. And,... because of the
clandestine/covert modus operandi of the UFO occupants, we could
probably never fully trust anything we may eventually get
directly from them either!

Whether you are convinced of the reality of UFOs or not, we're
_all_ stuck between a rock and very hard place when it comes to
acquiring any 'reliable' information on the subject.  Just bits
and pieces that have to be meticulously and carefully ferreted
out from a virtual dung heap that consists of; (some) facts,
diluted with a heapin' helpin' of pure, unchained speculation.

Oh woe is us!  ;)

Thanx again for taking the time to respond.  :)

Regards,

John Velez



                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









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                          Filer's Files #39 - 2001

From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:39:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:26:34 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #39 - 2001


Filer's Files #39 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
September 26, 2001, Majorstar@aol.com.
Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com,

Reported UFO sightings are down, but some were observed in New
York, New Jersey, Georgia, California, England, and Norway.
There are cattle mutilations in Montana, Canadian crop circles,
and evidence of life and tunnels on Mars. Because of the
catastrophe most people are glued to the television.

SEND A PRAYER, THE YANKS ARE COMING AND IT WON'T BE OVER UNTIL
ITS OVER, OVER THERE. America is getting ready for war as US
military forces deploy to the Middle East and South Asia. Many
countries such as Britain, Turkey, and Pakistan have agreed to
participate. Some kind of a strike against Osama bin Laden can
be expected in the near future. Commando type raids are
likely. During my trips to Turkey I saw some of the toughest
mountain fighters in the world, and I hope we can get Turkish
Special Forces to join the fight because they understand
mountain fighting. It will take a few weeks for our key naval
forces to deploy from half way around the world. Air Force
raids could occur at any time verified targets are acquired.
The enemies include both Osama bin Laden and Iraq who supports
his activities. The initial mission will be deploying
aircraft, supplies, covert forces, and other troops to Bahrain,
Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Diego Garcia Island in the Indian
Ocean. Fr! ance has agreed to let the US use its large military
base at Djibouti.

B-1 bombers with enhanced electronic countermeasures are being
sent to Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, and Diego Garcia. These bombers
operate at very low altitudes and will likely conduct some of
the first attacks. The terrorists do not have a sophisticated
air defense system, and penetration into their territory should
not be a problem. The key will be for intelligence to find the
well hidden and dug in terrorists, then to destroy them. Osama
bin Laden apparently moves with his caravan to a new hideout,
often a deep cave almost every night. Covert forces that could
launch helicopter or parachute operations are already in the
area.

CNN reported that F-15 fighters were launched from Otis AFB
shortly after the first airliner hit New York. The F-15s
nearly missed the second airliner before it hit the second
tower. Langley AFB, F-16s were scrambled from Langley to
intercept the AA-757 before it hit the Pentagon but were too
late. President Bush had given orders to shoot down any
aircraft entering Washington airspace, but NORAD claims none of
its fighter's expended weapons. Unfortunately the F-16 fighter
unit at Atlantic City had lost its alert air defense mission,
so it was not on alert. It is very possible if this unit was
on alert only 75 miles from New York it could have stopped the
second attack in time. Our F-15 and F-16s are flying fighter
patrol the Northeast Air Corridors with KC-135s from the 107th
ARW at Niagara Falls AFRB flying tanker support.


As a retired intelligence officer I would like to clarify some
factors. Intelligence had intercepted messages from Ben Laden
to his men in the US. They knew he was preparing for attacks,
but did not how or exactly where the attacks would occur.
Meanwhile, Robert Collins writes, Sunday's 60 Minutes TV Show
did a great job on the mentality of suicide bombers. Seven
million people come to this country every year on temporary
visas for various lengths of time. Of those only 3 1/2 million
actually go back home but the rest stay here illegally
according to the head of INS. The hijackers had expired visas.
FOX TV just showed their own check on Airport Security using
their own news people before the Sept 11th, attack. They tried
to pass 15 items through the checkpoints at various airports of
which Logan Airport, Boston was one of them. Consistently,
they were able to get 14 of the 15 items through airport
security including some big knives. Any wonder why the
Hijacker's succ! eeded. Successful operations against
terrorists require strong intelligence and security.
Terrorists always try to penetrate the weakest link in a
country's defenses.

The evidence indicates that at least two more aircraft
hijackings were planned on September 11, because box-cutters
like those used by the hijackers were found on aircraft
grounded just after the attacks. The aircrews essentially had
no weapons to fight the hijackers. Many effective weapons can
be made from Plastic and similar materials. It is my opinion
that some pilots should be armed. The government can
nationalize the airlines during a national emergency, so aren't
the pilots government employees as soon as a potential attack
occurs? Among the belongings of suspected terrorist Zacarias
Moussaoui, were manuals showing how to operate crop dusting
equipment that could be used to spray fast-killing toxins. The
discovery resulted in the grounding of all crop dusters
nationwide. Terrorists also have obtained licenses for driving
trucks containing toxins. These poisons could be sprayed over
cities.

Readers must understand we are at war. The terrorists want to
kill your children, your spouse, and your neighbors. Look for
UFOs, but be aware you are in danger from these people.

A friend related the following story to my wife. President
Bush visited the World Trade Center and talked with one of the
rescue workers who was picking up debris. The rescue worker
told the President that his uncle was one of heroes on Flight
93 that jumped the hijackers and crashed in Pennsylvania.
President Bush hugged the man, and told him, "Your uncle saved
my wife's life!" The President took off his own hat, signed
it, and gave it to the rescue worker. Later, the rescue worker
attended the memorial service for his uncle, and gave the
President's hat to his uncle's wife, who was very touched by
the gift. I send our prayers to those who lost their lives and
their loved ones in this national tragedy and our forces won't
be back to its over, over there.

ANNE HECHE DOES IT AGAIN!

BOSTON -- Joe Trainor reports actress Anne Heche almost took
the Boston plane to Los Angeles that crashed into the World
Trade Center on September 11, 2001. Only at the last minute
did she change her plans and fly to Toronto with her new
husband for more book signings of "Call Me Crazy." Instead of
heading home to California, she flew to Toronto and saved her
life.

NEW YORK BOOMERANGS

ST. JOHNSVILLE -- The witness reports that two flashing objects
in the sky appear as if they are "talking" to each other. At
11:33 PM, on August 24, 2001, my father and I witnessed two
objects in the sky a ways apart, flashing different colors,
from red to blue to white. At first my father believed that
they were "quasars" but one of them moved and reappear a short
distance away from the original spot. When looking at these
objects, I could notice that at one point it appeared they were
shaped like a boomerang, and then they would "change" into a
circle. Both my father and I are law enforcement officers.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director UFO Reporting Center
www.ufocenter.com

NEW JERSEY CYLINDER UFOs

LONG BEACH ISLAND -- While on vacation this summer Robert
Lamarco noticed a cylinder shaped object just off the Atlantic
coast four times. One sighting was the third week of August,
and he saw it twice on September 19, 2001. The sighting was at
about 11:00 AM and again at 2:30 PM. Robert said, "They came
in slow from the north, and went out to the back at my house in
Manahawkin. My boy's and I saw it again on Wednesday. It
seemed to be more over the land, and higher in the sky. It
moves so slowly. When it was right overhead we could see that
they had a cylinder shape and the ends were flat. It was a
soft white in color and there was no mistaking it for a plane,
or blimp. There were very few clouds in the sky at the time we
saw it." Thanks to Robert Lamarco funnycar1232000@yahoo.com

NORTHERN NEW JERSEY -- On September 24, 2001, the witness could
not sleep so around 3:00 AM, she went outside for a smoke it
was very quiet and only the sound of crickets broke the sound.
The witness relates, "I was scanning the skies and noticed a
very bright light traveling east going towards New York that
was flying well below the clouds. Suddenly it stopped and made
a quick southerly movement for about two miles. Then it
stopped again, and then traveled very fast to the east again
and then out of sight. There was no sound. This was in no way
a plane or a helicopter, it went off almost like a shot "one
minute it is there the next it was gone" I had no chance to get
my binoculars to view it better. Thanks to Louise SHnSASSY1
para-discuss@yahoogroups.com

GEORGIA UFO INVESTIGATION

WHITESBURG -- MUFON State Director Tom Sheets and George
Lainhart met with the witness who spotted a UFO in June at his
home. The witness turned over several good sketches of the UFO
and reconfirmed his personal account as being correct. During
further inspection of the surrounding property, the witness
pointed out the treetops that were illuminated by the hovering
craft. George had brought along his laser range finder used in
his duties on the SWAT Team. George ascertained that the trees
which were first illuminated were 336 yards away (the witness
had estimated 500 yards). The second tree to which the object
moved was only 74 yards away. Using these more exact ranges
and a terrain feature of known size, we later hope to determine
a more exact real size for the object. Various police
officials and local clerks in area stores advised they had no
knowledge of similar reports for the first two weeks in June.

On September 10, the witness phoned Tom at 10:00 PM and
indicated the objects may have returned, as he could see
bizarre lights over the distant part of his property. Tom
proceeded to Whitesburg, which took about one hour. They had
left the area upon my arrival, and did not return up through
3:00 AM. Thanks to Tom Sheets State Director.

LAGRANGE -- Around 7:45 PM, September 21, 2001, John Thompson
saw a "donut" like rope contrail. It had about 7-8 round
spaced "donuts" in a portion of the contrail. I had a
throwaway camera with me and took three photos of white
contrails several miles away over the Georgia-Alabama border to
the west, going south. It might have been one of the advanced
military aircraft deploying. Thanks to John Thompson

MONTANA CATTLE MUTILATIONS

WHITEFISH -- Brian Schweitzer, a cattle rancher, who was the
unsuccessful Democratic candidate for the US Senate last year,
recently found one of his cows killed. "The brand inspector
said lightning caused the death." Mr. Schweitzer said, "but
there was no lightning that night. And it very much looked
like those incisions were done with instruments." Mr.
Taliaferro, a cattleman who has been ranching for 25 years.
"When you see it, I tell you, it makes a believer out of you
that something weird is going on." Eight cow killings have
been reported in Montana since June 12, the most recent on
August 31, 2001, and they all appear similar to 67 cattle
mutilations in the 1970's. Law enforcement officials and
veterinarians who investigated said they had never seen
anything like it. In all the cases, part of the animal's face,
called the mask, is removed, along with reproductive organs.
There is usually no blood, and predators will often not touch
the carcass. County sheriff'! s deputy, says people who dismiss
the deaths are not looking hard enough. No vehicle tracks or
footprints have been found around the animals. "There are
smooth edges on those cuts and no bite marks. The mystery and
savagery of the deaths have led the more fanciful to speculate
that the cattle, which can weigh nearly a ton, were killed by a
band of satanic cultists, by UFOs or by secret military
testing.

CALIFORNIA GLOWING LIGHTS

BELLFLOWER -- Kim writes that on September 22, 2001, my Mom
called us outside to look at a strange bright red light in the
sky. My brother and his friend, my boyfriend and our friend
all went outside at about 11:40 PM to discover an extremely
bright object bigger than a star. The glowing light was coming
towards us from the east. We watched it for about ten minutes
as it continued to come closer. When it was almost overhead it
suddenly stopped. We continued to watch it for probably about
five more minutes as it just hovered there. We live 20 miles
southeast of Los Angeles and thought it might be a terrorist
plane. Suddenly the hovering red light flashed a couple of
times and dropped an object. It moved closer when it flashed
again a few times and dropped another object. We waited for an
explosion of a bomb, but nothing happened. The light blinked
and then flickered away and we saw the (unlit) object fly away
quickly. It moved so slowly, we figured it probably wasn't! a
plane. Thanks to Kim SBsurge4

CANADA NEW CROP CIRCLES

RED DEER, ALBERTA -- Paul Anderson reports the 'Star of David'
formation is 422 feet in diameter, making this the largest, and
arguably most complex formation yet found in this country. The
large circle in the center is 106 feet, the smaller circles
range from 42 to 44 feet. Connecting pathways are about 3 feet
wide. Judy Arndt of CropCircleQuest and coordinator Gordon
Sopczak conducted a ground survey of the formation yesterday.
The formation was found September 16, 2001. The crop is mature
red wheat, which is very dry and brittle. Aerial photos show
the geometry is off in places, although the overall design is
impressive, and very large! The seed heads do not show any
obvious damage associated with mechanical flattening (as in
most hoaxes); plant stalks are bent at various heights, from
ground level to about three inches above the ground. No
stretched or ruptured nodes found. Nurses in nearby Lacombe on
September 15, 2001, reported seeing odd triangular
configuratio! ns of lights at 3:15 and 5:00 AM. A few nights
later, on the at 1:05 AM, other nurses saw a set of lights,
arranged in seven triangles, peach or light orange in color,
which changed to an arrow, then a crescent shaped pattern
before disappearing. Thanks to Paul Anderson psa@look.ca,
Canadian Crop Circle Research Network
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

VANDERHOOF -- On Saturday, September 8, 2001, I drove three
hours to see six new Crop Circles in a field around the small
airport. Mr. Brent Miskuski was flying over the area in his
plane and spotted the Circles from the air. He sent along 3
pictures of the Crop Circles which I have placed to my site. It
was an awesome feeling standing in this field. You can find
the information at the following URL:
http://www.geocities.com/hbccufo/CropCircleInvestigated.html

ENGLAND UFO BACK IN THE DALES

DERBYSHIRE -- Matlock Mercury reported how a disc-shaped object
had been captured on video over Bonsall Moor last October, for
six minutes, just hovering quietly in the sky. Some experts
have hailed the footage as "the best UFO video ever" and it has
been the subject of national and international interest. On
August 27, 2001, Karen Sismey looked out from the Thorn Tree
Inn to spy a similar object in the same area. "My husband Phil
had been out there at around 10:45 PM when he saw something
hovering in the sky, for a good 15 minutes. " It was showing
very vivid colors with red at the bottom, and then ranging from
emerald and blue colors to a bright lemon yellow." The object
was seen by other visitors to the Thorn Tree. "It was not a
helicopter or an airplane and I know that it shouldn't normally
be there." Thanks to Gerry Farshores -
www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/

NORWAY UFO

MOSJEN -- Gerry Farshores writes that on September 23, 2001,
three people ran into the police station in Mosjen, central
Norway, to report seeing an unidentified flying object streak
low over the city. Police say all three are credible, and
they're classifying the incident as a UFO sighting. "We're
talking about three sober, credible people who we have no
reason to doubt," said Roar Tgersen of the Helgeland police
district. Three witnesses were sitting in a car when they saw
an unusual object flying low through the nighttime skies. They
said it resembled some sort of helicopter, and that it was
flying from the south in a northerly direction. "We don't know
what it was, therefore we're calling it a UFO," the object
rotated around its own axis. The three got out of the car to
get a better look, but quickly dove for cover because they were
afraid the object was about to crash. They said there was no
sound at all from the object, and that they felt threatened.
Police in! both Mosjen and Bod took the report seriously and
sent out patrols to search for any wreckage. Nothing was found
after several hours of searching. Thanks to Aftenposten, Oslo
/ Norway, Frode Stran and Gerry FarShores,
www.100megsfree4.com/farshores

MARS TUNNEL HABITAT INVESTIGATED

As editor of Filer's Files, I'm not a scientist but, I obtained
extensive intelligence and photo interpretation experience
while serving in the Air Force. Mars has indisputable evidence
of vast water flow that cut canyons, valleys, riverbeds and
left shorelines of lakes and seas. Within many of canyons and
valleys are lava tube or strange tunnel like structures. These
apparent tubes may an optical illusion, but I personally see a
rounded 3D effect to the strange, tubes or tunnels generally
located along the bottom of valleys. With the limited
equipment available to me, I feel these structures definitely
need further study and analysis. Astronomers for more than
hundred years have been watching Mars and claimed they saw
canal like structures on the Red Planet. M. Schiaparelli the
Director of Observatory at Milan stunned the world in 1877
announcing that Mars had a series of connecting straight lines
or canals. Their visibility was not always the same but, more
than sixty! had been observed that terminate at canal junctions
or in dark areas thought to be seas. Numerous other
astronomers such as American Percival Lowell confirmed the
findings with more powerful telescopes and noted that many of
the canals terminated in five and six-point intersections.
These were much more complex than structures formed by nature
and Lowell announced this indicated intelligent deliberate
planning on Mars. Water ice does exist on Mars, but sublimates
around -100�F (-73�C), due to the low atmospheric pressure of
6.1 mbars.

When our Viking satellites reached Mars, no canals were found,
but it may have been the tunnel like structures that the
astronomers had been observing? We now know that an
international team of researchers has discovered compelling
evidence that the magnetite crystals in the Martian meteorite
ALH84001 are of biological origin. The researchers found that
the magnetite crystals embedded in the meteorite are arranged
in long chains, which they say could have been formed only by
once-living organisms. Dr. Serguei M. Pershin Ph.D., a
Principal Investigator for the NASA Mars Polar Lander LIDAR
experiment, claims he has discovered organic pigments on Mars
relating to photosynthetic organisms. The organic pigments
suggest that life still exists on Mars. Cyanobacteria that
dominate Earth habitats such as Antarctica quite likely survive
on Mars. The red-green pigments of cyanobacteria are in part
due to Chlorophyll for converting solar radiation into food
(photosynthesis). Cyan b! acteria can tolerate the extreme
damaging effect of solar UV-B by synthesizing a variety of
protecting pigments, which either screen or prevent the effects
of the radiation.

Based on the assumption there has been life on Mars at least in
the past, I examined the evidence as if I was preparing an
intelligence report on the possible tunnel structures. A large
tunnel structure was imaged by Mars Global Surveyor on August
11, 1999, at 39.12N 27.08 W in flat terrain. Within the area
there are several deep valleys or channels probably caused by
the erosive movement of water in the past. These channels or
canyons appear to be an average of 150 meters deep. They are
now dry but appear to have been formed by water. Strange
tunnel like structures possibly lava tubes appear to have been
formed within these channels. The apparent size of the tunnels
is quite large with the width ranging from 125 meters to 200
meters in diameter. (410 to 656 feet) The tunnel structures
visible above ground are some three kilometers long running in
various directions similar to the astronomer's maps. Most of
the tunnels appear to be buried, but may have been visible in !
the past.

The tubes remind me of large tunnel structures built for
subways or the Chunnel that goes under the English Channel.
They could be natural structures formed by lava flows from
extensive ancient volcanic activity on the planet, particularly
in the Northern level plains. Running perpendicular to the
darker tubes are white ribs or striations that appear to
provide the main support. The striations may be a rib like
structure and appear made of different materials than the tube
itself and are evenly placed at an estimated 60 meters or 200
feet. They appear to provide the main strength to the
structure. The ribs bend in a uniform manner around turns and
occasionally appear anchored to the side of the channel to
provide further support for the over all structure. Often, the
tunnels overlap one another and meet perpendicular to each
other as described by the astronomers. One set of tunnels
joins and appear to dive further underground, while others
appear excavated. At first th! e striations reminded me of the
sand Sief Dunes in Saudi Arabia, but these are uniform with the
prevailing wind. The tunnels change direction frequently, but
the striations remain perpendicular and constant even with the
change in direction. Therefore, it is doubtful that these are
sand dunes that were formed by the prevailing winds. Windblown
sand and dust on the lee side of impact craters clearly show
the prevailing northwesterly winds. The tunnel structures
clearly change direction and disregard the prevailing wind
patterns. The tunnels are not eroded either from the wind or
the water flow. The tunnel system is likely part of the water
drainage system. The concept of canals by the early
astronomers may be correct, but the water flow may be diverted
inside the tunnel to avoid evaporation and the extreme cold.

Lava flows often have tunnel like features with open areas at
the center. Heavy water flows may have helped erode the
openings for increased water flow. We can speculate that the
lava flows were then altered for cultural purposes. If
intelligent life exists on Mars, it could have up graded the
tunnels for cultural activities. It is even possible the
astronomers observed the tunnels under construction that were
later covered. Water is likely transported at the base of the
tunnel and could carry boat traffic. Higher levels in the
tunnel could support high-speed rail line and a highway.
Living quarters and areas for farming could be situated along
the outer edges of the structure. When the Martian atmosphere
thinned and the lakes began to dry up, the inhabitants built
these structures to transfer water, move between underground
outposts and create a habitat for the remaining life. It is
likely some atmosphere apparently collects within the tunnels.
Water melting from th! e Ice Caps and underground could be
captured and transported inside the tunnels. Boats or barges
could float on the water. Geysers spurting water indicate more
water is available underground than generally realized.

The underground habitat is probably protected from Cosmic rays
by a combination of the thin atmosphere, soil, and steel ring
structures. Other images from other areas on Mars show hints
of similar tunnel like structures so we can speculate they
extend underground for long distances. One tunnel structure
seems to run from the Polar cap south to the Cydonia City area.
There is no apparent evidence of damage to the structures from
meteorite damage, they seem in good repair although there are
craters in the general area. At the largest width of the main
tunnel there appears to be a dome like structure at the top.
This dome is likely an observation post since almost all the
tunnel structure can be observed from this point. Not all
civilizations may choose to live above ground. Underground
living provides warmer temperatures, access to underground
aquifers, protection from the elements and potential enemies.

One of the complexes of Mars that most likely represents the
remnants of an ancient civilization is at Cydonia. The Fort, D
& M Pyramid, and the Cliff represent structures that seem
unlikely to have been formed by natural forces. The 'Cliff' at
Cydonia is a two-mile long tapered wedge that is located near
the perimeter of a 'splash'-style crater. Running parallel to
the 'Cliff' is another tunnel like structure. Both objects
would have been destroyed and buried under a shock wave of
debris from the meteor impacts, so it is obvious they must have
been formed some time after the meteor impacts. These impacts
are relatively recent, therefore, it is very unlikely they are
natural features and represent structures built by
intelligence. There is no geological mechanism that could
create such clearly defined formations, nor could they have
emerged from the debris surrounding the crater impact still
intact. Neither the 'Cliff' nor the tunnel like structure
could be part of the ! crater or its ejecta. The 'Cliff' and
the companion tunnel are some of the most important anomalies
at Cydonia and strongly hint of a hypothetical Martian
Civilization.

The civilization was eventually faced with both a vanishing
water supply and atmosphere. The population then would likely
attempt to preserve their lives by going underground. A tunnel
transportation system would be a logical part this activity.
Melting water from the snow at the poles in the springtime
could be transported towards warmer areas. Underground living
provides protection against meteors and radiation and food can
be grown using artificial lights. Large monuments may have
been built to mark the passage of their civilization and a
sophisticated society would have likely ventured out into
space. At the end of World War II a great deal of German
manufacturing had gone underground. The Heinkel firm produced
725 Volkjager HE-160 jet fighters per month using 2000 workers
all underground. When necessary a civilization will go
underground.

It is difficult to determine if the tunnels are still in use,
but we may be observing the remains of an ancient civilization.
Infrared photography generally not available to the public
indicates numerous underground heat sources often in straight
lines. These could be some lave flows, that were later
modernized to provide a low cost, ready-built enclosure for
habitation and transportation. The tunnels need further
investigation, since they hold the key to understanding Martian
history. See www.filersfiles.com for photos.

The GREAT UFO/ET CONFERENCE on October 6 & 7, 2001, at the DAYS
INN Route 206 and NJTP Exit 7, Bordentown, NJ. Saturday 10:00
AM George Filer will be the leadoff speaker concerning the UFO
Disclosure Project, Rick R. Hilberg - the First Three Decades,
Jim Wilson - When UFOs Land, Diana Palmer Hoyt UFOs, Social
Intelligence and Condon Committee, Donald LeeRose - Occultism
in Ufology, Georgio Tsoukalos - Legacy of the Gods, Antonio
Huneeus - UFO Chronicles From South America, Susan Swiatek -
New Abduction Cases, James Moseley - Shockingly Close To the
Truth, Ronald Story -The UFO Encyclopedia Project, Antonio
Huneeus- UFO Chronicles from Europe, George Hansen - The
Trickster and the Paranormal. Call Pat J. Marcattilio at 609
298-6100.

LARGEST UFO CD-ROM IN EXISTENCE The Black Vault has unveiled
thousands of documents relating to the UFO phenomenon. Some,
have never been published in electronic form, nor have other
seen even the light of day. Declassified in recent years, this
CD holds over 5,000 pages of material, covering the past
half-century of government involvement in the UFO field of
research. From the CIA recently declassified documents to the
FBI. From the NSA to the DIA, this CD has a fantastic archive,
ready to browse with high-resolution scans. Easily read and
easily navigated, this research tool will be used for years to
come! To order, call toll free, (866) 828-2858 or outside the
continental US, (818) 886-0131. Order online today,
http://www.blackvaultstore.com

"THE UFO EXPERIENCE" WEBSITE NAME TO BE AUCTIONED --"The UFO
Experience" annual conference has been ended and the conference
website closed down. The website's URL <<www.ufoexperience.com
will be offered for sale at auction via the Internet on e-Bay
on September 24, 2001. The listing will be in the "Domain
Names" section. (On e-Bay's home page, enter "Domain Names" in
the question box "What are you looking for?" and then select
the "Find it!" button.) The auction will have a floor of $500
and will last five days. Preemptive bids will be considered
before the auction. I reserve the right to cancel the auction
if a preemptive bid is accepted. John White, Producer "The UFO
Experience" Conference 60 Pound Ridge Road Cheshire,
Connecticut 06410-3412, USA Tel 203-272-2151. Fax 203-250-0501,
E-mail White8011@aol.com

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL for $30 per year by
contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended you for
membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2001 by George A.
Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the
files on their Web Sites provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue
that the item appeared. These reports and comments are not
necessarily the official MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants
permission for us to publish and use your name. Please state
if you wish to keep your name, address, or story confidential.
Caution, most of these are initial reports and require further
investigation. Regards, George Filer










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   Sep > Sep 26

                     UFO Fever Rises In Northern Norway

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:48:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:48:25 -0400
Subject: UFO Fever Rises In Northern Norway

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article.jhtml?articleID2231

Updated 25.09.01, kl 14:34 (GMT +01:00)
UFO Fever Rises In Northern Norway

Police in Helgeland, north central Norway, have been getting a
rash of reported UFO sightings, while a woman in the northern
town of Bod insists a small flying object landed in her garden.


It's enough to spur images from the "War of the Worlds," and
police chief Roar Tgersen doesn't see any reason to doubt that
people are describing what they actually saw.

Tgersen says several more people have come forward after news
reports carried the account of three people in the town of
Mosjen who dove for cover when they saw a low-flying, whirling
object hurtle through the night skies.

"We also have several other witness observations of the same
phenomenon in the same time frame on Sunday," Tgersen said.
He's been in contact with Norway's Department of Defense, but
says they haven't made any observations of their own.

Other people have reported sightings of additional UFOs that
apparently resemble small, brightly lit balls. While the larger
object over Mosjen emitted no noise whatsoever, Tgersen says
the smaller objects are reported to have made a hissing sound.

But the most remarkable reports came from the northern city of
Bod. There, a woman went out of her house to smoke a cigaratte.
Suddenly, she says, a flying object landed on her lawn, stood
there awhile, and then lifted off and flew away.

What's more, two other separate individuals reported the same
sighting, at the same time, on Saturday evening. One of the two
was driving his car when he spotted it flying over Vefsnfjorden,
while another saw it while out on a veranda. Both reported that
it was brightly lit.

Aftenposten's Norwegian reporter
Frode Stran
Aftenposten Interactive English Desk
Nina Berglund






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   Sep > Sep 26

                        Re: Chiles-Whitted - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:29:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:51:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Chiles-Whitted - Aldrich


See message from Brad Sparks:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2001/sep/m20-009.shtml

 From Don Ledger

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2001/sep/m19-016.shtml

and finally Wendy Connors on the Chiles-Whitted sighting

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2001/sep/m19-009.shtml

Wendy says of Chiles:

"5. He became Squadron Commander and later Deputy Commanding
Officer of at Hensley Field and then was commanding officer at
Ascension Island and rose to the rank of Lt. Col. He flew just
about everything up to and including P-38s. While commanding
Wideawake field at Ascension Island, he used his own money to
bring Christmas trees from the U.S. so his men could have a
better Christmas on an island that had nothing and forbid
alcohol. Yep, although he was not a drinker, he allowed his men
to do so, but monitored it so that it did not get out of
control."

This is highly interesting as one Air Force official suggested
that the pilots were drunk at the time of the sighting.

I know Barry Greenwood has looked in scores of newspapers around
the time of this sighting to try to find more information  on
this and other sightings. There are sightings from the ground
and over a wide area.

Further, there was a newspaper account of two Virginia
professors who made a similar sighting about the same time.  IF,
a big if, the Chiles-Whitted object and the Virginia objects
were the same, then this bostlers the meteor explanation.
However, exact times are not available for the professors'
sightings.

This sighting takes up more than two hundred pages in the Blue
Book files, but does not cover all the angles.

Even if the sighting, was of a bolide, it is important in UFO
history as it is apparently lead to the TID request for the RAND
spaceship study and probably to the ETOS and "Analysis of Flying
Object Incidents over the United States" studies.

Brad, as far as Hynek is concerned, I would take what he says
about meteors at this time with a grain of salt.  He was, in
fact, explaining objects seen under overcast as meteors, and
further his suggestion that the Newfoundland cloud cutter was a
meteor seems way out of line.


Jan Aldrich









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   Sep > Sep 26

                           Linda 'Cortile' Is OK!

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:26:36 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:53:31 -0400
Subject: Linda 'Cortile' Is OK!


Hi All,

Although I still have no news about Antonio Huneuus and one or
two other New York based ufologists, I have (finally) heard from
Linda. Below is a copy of the response note she sent me in
answer to my inquiry about herself and her family.

Regards to all,

John Velez

------------------

Dear John:

Went on a job interview that morning and got stuck in building
#1. When I came home (7 blocks away from ground zero) and walked
through the door, my family was frantic and my good friend Sal
Amendola was on the phone. After having ran from the crumbling
of Tower #2, with the help of a fireman, I returned home just in
time to see Tower #1 fall to ground zero from our window.

Sal's call was the last I heard from anyone in two weeks. No
telephone, no TV, no newspapers, no mail, no venturing out.
Cops, State troopers and Military on every block. Toxic fumes
have made us sick. Most of all, we're heartsick for all those
poor people who have lost their lives and the families who were
left behind.

I can't get the image out of my mind and I wonder what happened
to the elderly man I dragged with me, until a firefighter
scooped me up and took me away.

Thanks for your concern. My best to your family and all of those
in your support group.

Ciao,
Linda
            A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
            www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                 johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
   "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 26

                                     Re:

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:50:56 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:59:19 -0400
Subject: Re:


Linda Cortile was an original TSer but dropped out quickly. She
is the most famous abductee and was the subject of a book by
Budd Hopkins. See the map which shows where she lives -- and
where the various witnesses of her abduction were located: Greg
Sandow -- Map of the Linda Cortile Case

Linda and her husband met Elizabeth, Sandy and me at the subway
station and she took us on an extended walking tour of Lower
Manhattan, where she has lived her entire life. We walked right
past the WTC and were amazed at the height of those towers.
Linda is a lovely, charming and very bright lady and not any
kind of "kook" as some critics of her story have implied. I
tried to phone and email her right after the WTC disaster and
this is the first reply received from her. Now we know why ...

Bond


Subj: Are you OK, Linda?
Date: 9/26/01 1:29:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Honeybe
To: JBONJO

Dear Bond:

Thanks very much for your concern. We're fine and trying to get
back to normal. The tragedy hit the Cortile's hard. Lost a
niece, two nephews, and two cousins.

Went on a job interview in Tower #1 that morning for the company
where my relatives are employed. Wanting to give a good
impression, I arrived at the towers early and since we're only
seven blocks away from the WTC, I walked.

No sooner had I entered the building and headed for the
information desk to find out exactly which elevator to take to
the 104th floor, I heard a horrific BOOM. It shook the floor we
were standing on. At first no one let us out of the Tower
because of falling debris. When my intuition kicked in, I
listened to it and headed out the entrance door.

Outside, was an elderly man who could hardly walk, so I dragged
him with me. Discarding my high heeled shoes, we ran together
trying to duck debris. We looked back and a cloud of smoke
followed us.

A fireman came along and scooped me up and I lost the poor man
who was running with me. I can't stop thinking about him. What
in God's name happened to him? I'm so worried.

When I arrived home, my family was frantic. After I hugged them
all, I ran to the living room window and watched Tower #1 fall
to ground zero. I was wet with sweat remembering that I had been
in that building just a short while before and but for God's
care I would have been on the 104th floor -- above where the
first plane impacted and from which no one could have escaped.

My good friend Sal Amendola was on the phone with my husband and
his call was the last we heard from anyone for 2 weeks. No
phone, no computer, no TV, no newspapers, no mail, and no
venturing out. Cops, state troopers and military were standing
on every street. F-16's flew above us. Toxic dust filled the
air. I can still taste it. We developed  a nasty cough. As of
today, we have a new 'temporary phone number.'

Can't get the image out of my mind. We're heartsick over all
those people who have lost their lives and the families they
left behind. We don't believe our relatives will ever be found.
We're still feeling a little shaky.

Yes, the World Trade Center was destroyed, but our spirits tower
higher than those buildings and will never fall. We won the war
before it had begun.

Thanks again for your concern and please forward this message to
those on your List and give them my love.

Best regards to Elizabeth and Sandy.

Love,

Linda










   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 26

                            Caution - AA Autopsy

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:10:48 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:41:07 -0400
Subject: Caution - AA Autopsy


Not wishing to restrict any discussion and debate on this matter
- not one dot - however, not all of us have copies of the CD's
as originally distributed. There is a wealth of information on
those CD's. The agreement was to have been as follows:

Anyone having been delivered the CD sets were to have made
discussions on the site prepared for such. Which is why the CD's
were distributed in the first place. So, I would suggest, with
great caution and fear not to upset anyone here, that those of
us who _have_ the CD's follow the rules set up for us and avoid
further discussion _here_ until we've all had a chance to come
to some conclusions on the site provided us.

Do not misconstrue my intent. I am not interested (in fact, I am
the _last_ guy in the world who wishes to do so) in restricting
topic discussion. Only in this case, it was our agreement. We
who have the CD set.


Love and respect,

Jim Mortellaro









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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 26

                             Are you OK, Linda?

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:50:56 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:43:00 -0400
Subject: Are you OK, Linda?


Linda Cortile was an original TSer but dropped out quickly. She
is the most famous abductee and was the subject of a book by
Budd Hopkins. See the map which shows where she lives -- and
where the various witnesses of her abduction were located: Greg
Sandow -- Map of the Linda Cortile Case

Linda and her husband met Elizabeth, Sandy and me at the subway
station and she took us on an extended walking tour of Lower
Manhattan, where she has lived her entire life. We walked right
past the WTC and were amazed at the height of those towers.
Linda is a lovely, charming and very bright lady and not any
kind of "kook" as some critics of her story have implied. I
tried to phone and email her right after the WTC disaster and
this is the first reply received from her. Now we know why ...

Bond


Subj: Are you OK, Linda?
Date: 9/26/01 1:29:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Honeybe
To: JBONJO

Dear Bond:

Thanks very much for your concern. We're fine and trying to get
back to normal. The tragedy hit the Cortile's hard. Lost a
niece, two nephews, and two cousins.

Went on a job interview in Tower #1 that morning for the company
where my relatives are employed. Wanting to give a good
impression, I arrived at the towers early and since we're only
seven blocks away from the WTC, I walked.

No sooner had I entered the building and headed for the
information desk to find out exactly which elevator to take to
the 104th floor, I heard a horrific BOOM. It shook the floor we
were standing on. At first no one let us out of the Tower
because of falling debris. When my intuition kicked in, I
listened to it and headed out the entrance door.

Outside, was an elderly man who could hardly walk, so I dragged
him with me. Discarding my high heeled shoes, we ran together
trying to duck debris. We looked back and a cloud of smoke
followed us.

A fireman came along and scooped me up and I lost the poor man
who was running with me. I can't stop thinking about him. What
in God's name happened to him? I'm so worried.

When I arrived home, my family was frantic. After I hugged them
all, I ran to the living room window and watched Tower #1 fall
to ground zero. I was wet with sweat remembering that I had been
in that building just a short while before and but for God's
care I would have been on the 104th floor -- above where the
first plane impacted and from which no one could have escaped.

My good friend Sal Amendola was on the phone with my husband and
his call was the last we heard from anyone for 2 weeks. No
phone, no computer, no TV, no newspapers, no mail, and no
venturing out. Cops, state troopers and military were standing
on every street. F-16's flew above us. Toxic dust filled the
air. I can still taste it. We developed  a nasty cough. As of
today, we have a new 'temporary phone number.'

Can't get the image out of my mind. We're heartsick over all
those people who have lost their lives and the families they
left behind. We don't believe our relatives will ever be found.
We're still feeling a little shaky.

Yes, the World Trade Center was destroyed, but our spirits tower
higher than those buildings and will never fall. We won the war
before it had begun.

Thanks again for your concern and please forward this message to
those on your List and give them my love.

Best regards to Elizabeth and Sandy.

Love,

Linda








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 26

                  Current/Ongoing Abductions Among Listers?

From: Reed Hall <rhall@carbon.cudenver.edu>
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:56:12 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 16:28:03 -0400
Subject: Current/Ongoing Abductions Among Listers?


Hi, all -

Long-time lurker, first-time "caller" here. I follow the
discussions on this list (reading them daily via Glenn
Campbell's site) with great interest, have done so for quite
some time now, and think this is a fantastic forum. The vast
majority of the participants seem intelligent and informed, and
their various perspectives and positions make for lively,
sometimes acerbic, but always thought-provoking discussions.

I do have a question which I'd like to pose to those members of
this List who are, or perceive themselves to be, abductees. My
understanding, based on the UFO literature I've read, is that
one of the key characteristics of the phenomenon is that it is a
lifelong, ongoing phenomenon. Is that the experience of the
abductees here on this List? John, Jim, others - are these
experiences still continuing in your lives today? Many of you do
mention from time to time some of your past experiences from way
back when, but there seems little to no mention of current,
ongoing experiences. I'm just very curious to know if they're
still occurring in your lives. If so, how often? How long ago
was the most recent one? What happened? That sort of thing.

I'm particularly intrigued - disturbed - by the abduction
phenomenon, and would value the input of those here who are
continuing to have those sorts of experiences in their lives to
comment upon them as much as they feel comfortable doing. The
more pieces to this enigmatic jigsaw puzzle we can piece
together, the better....


Thanks!








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 27

                      Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:51:15 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 06:17:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Sparks


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:10:48 EDT
 >Subject: Caution - AA Autopsy
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Not wishing to restrict any discussion and debate on this matter
 >- not one dot - however, not all of us have copies of the CD's
 >as originally distributed. There is a wealth of information on
 >those CD's. The agreement was to have been as follows:

 >Anyone having been delivered the CD sets were to have made
 >discussions on the site prepared for such. Which is why the CD's
 >were distributed in the first place. So, I would suggest, with
 >great caution and fear not to upset anyone here, that those of
 >us who _have_ the CD's follow the rules set up for us and avoid
 >further discussion _here_ until we've all had a chance to come
 >to some conclusions on the site provided us.

 >Do not misconstrue my intent. I am not interested (in fact, I am
 >the _last_ guy in the world who wishes to do so) in restricting
 >topic discussion. Only in this case, it was our agreement. We
 >who have the CD set.


Well I never agreed to any such rules and never would and don't
intend to. These so-called "rules" were imposed after the fact.










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 27

               Re: Current/Ongoing Abductions Among Listers? -

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:52:58 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 06:22:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Current/Ongoing Abductions Among Listers? -



 >Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:56:12 -0600
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: Reed Hall <rhall@carbon.cudenver.edu>
 >Subject: Current/Ongoing Abductions Among Listers?

Hi Reed, Listers,

You asked some pertinent questions, but ones not so easily
answered. First of all, you need to introduce yourself to our
List before I (speaking for myself only) am willing to talk
much about my "current" experiences. Time _does_ have a way of
healing, although in my case, I'm very ambivalent about
discussing some of these issues because I need to know your
motivation for asking the questions (i.e., what do you plan on
doing with the information you receive?)

Reed, I've lost friends, jobs, been ridiculed to exasperation
over the years, and I am now pretty careful with whom I discuss
my "current" experiences. One caviat on this List is that
whether you're an experiencer or a skeptic, you maintain the
complete privacy of those people with whom you write off-line or
on-line. Some of us have divulged our full names on this List.
Despite what John Carpenter and George Hansen think, that does
_not_ give you, nor anyone else carte blanche to do what you
wish with the information you learn on this List. Of course, you
can go to the archives and look up someone's name, digesting all
of what has been written. But, if you use that information
inappropriately, beware. EBK has bumped people from this List
before, and I'm sure he'll do it again, if he feels it is
necessary to do so.

This List is here for all to learn, but discretion is not just
the better part of valor; in this case it is imperative. Until
these pheonmena are understood and accepted, that has to be the
way it is, otherwise, no one will want to respond to your
questions, you won't get your questions answered, and none of us
will learn anything new either.

Understood?


Sincerely,

Sue










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 27

               Re: Current/Ongoing Abductions Among Listers? -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:31:46 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 06:29:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Current/Ongoing Abductions Among Listers? -


 >Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:56:12 -0600
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: Reed Hall <rhall@carbon.cudenver.edu>
 >Subject: Current/Ongoing Abductions Among Listers?


 >Hi, all -

 >Long-time lurker, first-time "caller" here. I follow the
 >discussions on this list (reading them daily via Glenn
 >Campbell's site) with great interest, have done so for quite
 >some time now, and think this is a fantastic forum. The vast
 >majority of the participants seem intelligent and informed, and
 >their various perspectives and positions make for lively,
 >sometimes acerbic, but always thought-provoking discussions.

 >I do have a question which I'd like to pose to those members of
 >this List who are, or perceive themselves to be, abductees. My
 >understanding, based on the UFO literature I've read, is that
 >one of the key characteristics of the phenomenon is that it is a
 >lifelong, ongoing phenomenon. Is that the experience of the
 >abductees here on this List? John, Jim, others - are these
 >experiences still continuing in your lives today? Many of you do
 >mention from time to time some of your past experiences from way
 >back when, but there seems little to no mention of current,
 >ongoing experiences. I'm just very curious to know if they're
 >still occurring in your lives. If so, how often? How long ago
 >was the most recent one? What happened? That sort of thing.

I can speak for myself and just a few others, perhaps a dozen or
so, or more. Half of the perceived abductees are in for the
pound. With ongoing experiences. Some, such as myself, seem to
have had a hiatus for a number of years, the middle years.
Either the experiences had stopped or the memory of them
obliterated. In any case, and in my experience, they had
returned in recent years.

However the strange happenings such as problems with electronics
and with lights going off at the most unexpected times, continue
unabated.

Should you require additional information, just ask. OnList.

One thing I would like to mention which I believe applies to
those who perceive themselves to be researchers, as well as to
such as yourself, perhaps... I've personally given a goodly
amount of information on this List and to my chagrin, it often
passes forgotten.

How many times have I mentioned an event or action on this List
which in another context, mention yet again, in answer to a post
made by people who've been here a long, long while. It is as if
I never posted in the first place. Maybe it's just that what I
believe to be important is not so to the researcher. It's as if
I never mentioned it on UpDates. Which in itself is wrong, not
on my part, but on the parts of those who call themselves
researchers. We should all be interested in the same thing.
Researchers should be soaking what I and other abductees have to
say like a sponge. Looking and analyzing every word out of our
mouths. Not so. And this is shockingly disturbing to me.

Similarly, your questions have all been answered previously,
certainly by me, on this list. Depending on how long you've been
lurking, if it's been more than two years, then you've missed
one too many points.

Please do not consider this an indictment. It is. But not to you
personally. Rather to those who keep expounding and beating
their chests about how important and true their paradigms, their
opinions, their beliefs, should be to the rest of us.  We who've
all been through it and through it again. It's almost as if we
are not important in this matter. We are too wrapped up in the
events to be considered seriously to have a point of view. That
sucks big time. All of you know damned well when the old Morty
is in his funnybone mode. And when he's in his righteous
indignation mode. In case there is some doubt. This post is the
latter. I said "all." Well, maybe not exactly all.  But enough.

This rant is directed at those who should know better. Taking
notes, Taking names. Recording every damned thing we have to
say. Each of us. In the event we have something to say. Which we
do.

I have no idea whether I am an abductee or even if the phenom is
real. It is to me. So real, that I am appalled at the lack of
attention to the details listed here by us, and the lack of
retention by those who should be paying same.

OK. I do believe you've all had enough. So've I.

 >I'm particularly intrigued - disturbed - by the abduction
 >phenomenon, and would value the input of those here who are
 >continuing to have those sorts of experiences in their lives to
 >comment upon them as much as they feel comfortable doing. The
 >more pieces to this enigmatic jigsaw puzzle we can piece
 >together, the better....

It is my personal opinion that a sufficiency of fact - _fact_ -
has been written over and over. It's all there. Now it's up to
the research community to piece it together. We can help. The
abductee should _not_ be the idiot who is regressed for his or
her memory. Such as it is. The abductee should be the first
person polled as to the events perceived. Not the last. We are
not even the last as far as I can see from the retained
information presented herein. Not even a tool. Which is why I
cannot respect terribly many researchers. Those who do not _use_
us are few. Hopkins. Jacobs. Some few others. The rest?

"Tell me what I want to know. Never mind what _you_ think!"


With respect,

Jim Mortellaro








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 27

                    Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 23:46:04 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 06:57:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Salvaille


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:10:48 EDT
 >Subject: Caution - AA Autopsy
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >Not wishing to restrict any discussion and debate on this matter
 >- not one dot - however, not all of us have copies of the CD's
 >as originally distributed. There is a wealth of information on
 >those CD's. The agreement was to have been as follows:

 >Anyone having been delivered the CD sets were to have made
 >discussions on the site prepared for such. Which is why the CD's
 >were distributed in the first place. So, I would suggest, with
 >great caution and fear not to upset anyone here, that those of
 >us who _have_ the CD's follow the rules set up for us and avoid
 >further discussion _here_ until we've all had a chance to come
 >to some conclusions on the site provided us.

 >Do not misconstrue my intent. I am not interested (in fact, I am
 >the _last_ guy in the world who wishes to do so) in restricting
 >topic discussion. Only in this case, it was our agreement. We
 >who have the CD set.

<snip>

Hello Jim and List.

This, Jim, is starting to look like defamation.

Grab the Gripple bottle, my friend, and enjoy the ride :)

I am not the kind of person who violates terms of agreements. I
know you don't mean it, but this is what I am accused of. It is
becoming some kind of mantra for Ed Gehrman and Dave Vetterick.

Pause for a moment before joining the ahoummmmmmmmms.

Let me put the record straight once and for all.

Phase 1:

Dated August 2, 2001, I received, from Dave Vetterick, Neil
Morris and Ed Gehrman, the following message which started with:

"Ed Gehrman, Neil Morris & I would like to send you AT NO COST a
2 CD set put together by  Neil Morris, which contains digitized
copies of all the Santilli AA film reels. The clarity and
ability to look at the entire AA frame by frame I found
extremely interesting and revealing."

Attached with this August 2, 2001 offer, there was a word
document, signed by the same 3 persons.

Name of attachment: "CD Invitation.doc".

On line 36 of "CD Invitation.doc", we can read the following:

"All you have to do is reply to this message and we'll send you
the 2 CD set at our expense. In return we ask you simply write a
message explaining your final opinion on the AA film, and what
effect if any the CD had in influencing your opinion. Post this
on whatever related news/discussion lists you belong to & send
us a copy.

"We are going to make the CD set available to the public via
these news lists at our cost. People will be able to look at
both the AA Film and Ramey photos in great detail.

"Our sole purpose and motive is to keep the Roswell incident in
the forefront of the public eye. We believe this is the most
effective, and perhaps only way to uncover the truth about
Roswell, whatever that truth might be."

Now, is this plain English? Did we have an agreement when I
accepted the offered CD? You're damn right we had.

Phase 2:

On September 4, in order to respect the agreement, I
_reluctantly_ issued the "AA Puppet" post. To which nobody
responded.

On September 5, the _next_day_, I received the following e-mail
for Dave Vetterick:

"Hi Serge

"You may have missed my last e-mail where we said we were ready
to start taking responses.

"We decided not to have replies and follow up discussion posted
on the List. Instead we asked everyone to send their initial
comments to me. Were going to set up a private web site where
everyone's comments will be posted on a separate page for each
participant. The address for the web site is only being given to
the participants where you can read each others responses."

_This_ is _not_ an agreement. It is a unilateral turn-around and
a breach of contract. An agreement is, by definition, bilateral.
"We decided" is all but _mutual_.

At this time, I also received an e-mail from Ed Gehrman, asking
what was the matter with me, that we had an agreement, etc, etc.

E-mail to which I responded by sending the same extract of the
same agreement of August 2.

To which Ed respondes that he was sorry and that he didn't know
Dave and I had this kind of agreement...

Phase 3

On September 23, Rebecca answers my "AA puppet" post.

Do I have the right to answer her? You bet.

Is this an infringement to the original agreement? No sir.

Phase 4

Ed Gerhman now publicly accuses me on the List of not respecting
the agreement. You are implying that the group had an agreement.
And, for crying out loud, I have just received an e- mail from
Dave accusing me of betraying the freaking agreement.

Phase 5

What I would like to know is:

1. Where did you get the idea that the agreement was to keep the
AA discussion within the confines of a web site?

2. Where did you get the idea that it was prohibited to discuss
the AA film on the Updates?

Would you be referring to the September 5 e-mail from Dave...?

You would call an agreement a statement starting with "We
decided"?

3. As for keeping this within a small circle, please note that
the following people have presumably received the CDs for
analysis: Jan Aldrich, Colin Andrews, Nick Balaskas, Peter
Blinn, Gildas Bourdais, Georgina Bruni, John Burns, Conway
Costigan, Michel Deschamps, Jon Downes, Bobbie Felder, George
Filer, Stan Friedman, Robert Gates, Ed Gehrman, Richard Hall,
Bill Hamilton, Larry Hatch, Sean Jones, Steven Kaeser, Bruce
Maccabee, Philip Mantle, Jesse Marcel, Neil Morris, Jim
Mortellaro, Kevin Randle, David Rudiak, Serge Salvaille, Greg
Sandow, William Sawers, Bob Shell, Brad Sparks, Dennis Stacy, Ed
Stewart, Whitley Strieber, Mac Tonnies, Ed Uthman, John Velez,
Dave Vetterick, Don Waldrop.

If they look like unfamiliar figures on the List, please let me
know.

Phase 6

I don't give a damn.

But I suggest an apology would be nice.

For the ignorant weirdoes on this List (and that includes EBK),
[head snaps up, "Huh?"--ebk] I have put my observations with
pictures on the following site:

http://www.rocler.qc.ca/sergesa/

This way, all the rest will understand that the body was never
turned over to cut around the skull and will try to figure out
hiw it is possible to cut around a 2x4 on a table with a 4 inch
wide saw without turning the thing around.

The concerned few may repeat to themselves: "The bastard didn't
respect the agreement... The bastard didn't respect the
agreement..."

But that won't make the AA film something else then a definite
piece of B.S.

Regards and appropriate appreciation,

[and without, surprisingly, an ounce of bitterness,]

Serge






   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 27

                      Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 03:59:12 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 07:39:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Hatch


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:51:15 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:10:48 EDT
 >>Subject: Caution - AA Autopsy
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Not wishing to restrict any discussion and debate on this matter
 >>- not one dot - however, not all of us have copies of the CD's
 >>as originally distributed.

<snip>

 >>Do not misconstrue my intent. I am not interested (in fact, I am
 >>the _last_ guy in the world who wishes to do so) in restricting
 >>topic discussion. Only in this case, it was our agreement. We
 >>who have the CD set.

 >Well I never agreed to any such rules and never would and don't
 >intend to. These so-called "rules" were imposed after the fact.



Hello Brad and Jim:

I have to agree with Brad here.

Please read the original message, in full, from Dave Vetterick:

"Larry

  Tried sending this to you before & it bounced so am
  trying again

  Dave


  Subj: Autopsy CD's
  Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 00:14:49 -0500
  From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>

  To: Greg Sandow, Gildas Bourdais, Dennis Stacy,
   Robert Gates, Earl Bruce Knapp, Larry Hatch
   Bob Young, John Velez, Steven Kaeser,
   Rebecca Keith
  CC: neil morris, Ed Gehrman

[ All actual email addresses deleted here -LH ]

  Ed Gehrman may have already had a discussion with you
  about these new CD's from Neil Morris, which contain
  digitized copies of all the Santilli AA film reels. The
  clarity and ability to look at the entire AA frame by frame
  I found extremely interesting and revealing. We'd like to
  send you this 2 CD set AT NO COST.

  Please see the attached word file which explains what Ed,
  Neil & I are going to do & why.

  At the very least, the CD's deserve a look and additional
  discussion among ourselves with as much of this discussion
  as possible shared with the public via the various UFO
  discussion lists.

[please note that last phrase above -LH ]

  We think you'll agree the ultimate goal as stated at the
  end of the enclosed is one we all share regardless of our
  opinions of the AA film. We don't think anyone would
  argue that in the last several years, NOTHING, has
  captured the public's interest as much as the AA films.

  It's in this spirit we hope you'll take a look and then
  respond as requested.

  Thanks
  Dave Vetterick
  Neil Morris
  Ed Gehrman "

- - - -

Then, _one_ guy responds on the UpDates list, and whammo! Now we
all have to play by new rules; _restricting_ discussion to a
special list or group managed by the purveyors of the same AA
CDs named above.

Sorry, I'm not playing that game. I agreed to look at them and
(possibly) comment. I have visited countries with "managed
news". I used to belong to the One True Church. (you know, the
one that tells you which books you can read..)

If you want my opinion of the AA film/CDs, you will see it in
open court ( i.e. this forum and similar ) and _not_ someplace
where it is out of my control.

I can understand the investors in any scheme like this trying to
recover their costs and maybe turn a profit; it looks like an
expensive project. I cannot allow them to attach my name to the
effort, however.

If the perps want their CDs back, they can have them. Kindly
send a postpaid envelope.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch


PPS:

  "CD Invitation.doc
  Name: CD Invitation.doc
  Type: Microsoft Word Document (application/msword)
  Encoding: base64 "

Sorry, I cannot read MS Word documents here. -LH








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 27

                    'UFO' Sighted Over Jurong, Singapore

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 07:52:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 07:52:22 -0400
Subject: 'UFO' Sighted Over Jurong, Singapore

http://sg.cna.mediacorpnews.com/articles/2001/09/24/singaporenews5205.htm


24 September 2001 1540 hrs (GMT) 2340 hrs (SST)

'UFO' Sighted Over Jurong West
by Bridgette See


Residents in Jurong West saw a strange object in the sky on
Saturday night, describing it an unidentified flying object that
hovered for as long as 15 minutes over some blocks of flats.

The UFO sparked excitement and speculation among the residents,
some of whom called the Channel NewsAsia hotline.

Resident Benjamin Lee captured the object on a video camera, but
by the time the camera began rolling, it had moved some distance
away.

"They were shouting and said some flying saucer over the place
so I just came out and saw the thing," he said.

"They said, 'Take your view cam.' So I started taking down the
picture. Then the saucer was just hovering over the top of the
block, a very bright light.

"At first I thought it was a chopper. Everybody was saying it's
a helicopter but after looking at the lights -- the lights were
running around the whole thing -- it looks much more like a
saucer." Mr Lee said.

"I was in the kitchen when I saw the saucer. It was as wide as
the flat window," added Joanne Lee.

"I didn't believe it, so I used a toy telescope to look at it.
It was very clear, like a plate, rounded, with blinker lights,"
another eyewitness, Mr Tan, said.

"I saw it at 9.45 pm. I used a telescope. There were many lights
on the bottom of the saucer. There were three windows. Fifteen
minutes later, it flew off in another direction," Madam Yong
added.

A spokesperson from mobile phone company StarHub thought it
could be their lightship, which flew over the Bukit Timah
expressway that night.

StarHub said the two 1,000-watt lights on the lightship are so





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                        Global Consciousness Project

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 07:44:07 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:03:12 -0400
Subject: Global Consciousness Project


I'm not really sure this is on topic; but, I'm sure most listers
will find it interesting.

For some time now, Princeton University has been running
something called the Global Consciousness Project.  They have
dispersed 38 "EGGS", essentially random number generators,
around the world.  They measure the correlation of these numbers
over time.  The data tends to show that world events cause a
resonance or a loss of randomness as we humans focus on these
events.  Here's a project description:

http://noosphere.princeton.edu/

Things like major earthquakes, the death of Princess Diana, or
even New Years Eve celebrations seem to indicate a human
resonance.  But, the recent events in NYC showed a significant
"disturbance in the force":

http://noosphere.princeton.edu/terror.html

What I find most astounding is that these correlations began
FOUR HOURS BEFORE the actual event.

Amazing.

Terry









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   Sep > Sep 27

              Re: Norway Mystery 'Chopper' Crash, Etc. - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 07:40:05 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:07:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Norway Mystery 'Chopper' Crash, Etc. - McCoy


EBK, Listers:

FYI this is the home page for the Port Orford News go to the
Port Orford (yes it is the same Orford that is of the Rendelsham
story's lighthouse is named after.) News site then go to the
date of July 19th 2001, make sure you have a PDF reader up.

http://www.kramerskorners.com/


http://www.kramerskorners.com/pot12/1227today.pdf








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               Re: Current/Ongoing Abductions Among Listers? -

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:53:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 20:20:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Current/Ongoing Abductions Among Listers? -


 >Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:56:12 -0600
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: Reed Hall <rhall@carbon.cudenver.edu>
 >Subject: Current/Ongoing Abductions Among Listers?

 >Hi, all -

 >Long-time lurker, first-time "caller" here. I follow the
 >discussions on this list (reading them daily via Glenn
 >Campbell's site) with great interest, have done so for quite
 >some time now, and think this is a fantastic forum. The vast
 >majority of the participants seem intelligent and informed, and
 >their various perspectives and positions make for lively,
 >sometimes acerbic, but always thought-provoking discussions.

Hello Reed,

You asked:

 >I do have a question which I'd like to pose to those members of
 >this List who are, or perceive themselves to be, abductees. My
 >understanding, based on the UFO literature I've read, is that
 >one of the key characteristics of the phenomenon is that it is a
 >lifelong, ongoing phenomenon. Is that the experience of the
 >abductees here on this List?

Speaking strictly for myself, yes.

 >John, Jim, others - are these experiences still continuing in your
 >lives today?

I have no recollection of recent "abductions" but sightings of
unexplained flying objects continues unabated and on a fairly
regular basis.

 >Many of you do mention from time to time some of your past
 >experiences from way back when, but there seems little to no
 >mention of current, ongoing experiences. I'm just very curious
 >to know if they're still occurring in your lives.

I haven't had any (that I can recall) in awhile. And if I did,
this List would not be the place to report a 'recent' event or
to publicly discuss it. UFO sighting or abduction experiences
need to be carefully checked out before 'taking them to the
public.' Frankly, I don't think that anyone should be
broadcasting the details of their own experiences in a 'public'
forum unless those details (and the person) has been thoroughly
investigated, and other more mundane explanations for what they
are reporting have been systematically eliminated. Without that
kind of basic 'groundwork' having been performed by an educated
and independent research person it's all purely anecdotal.

I worked with Budd Hopkins for five years in order to
investigate my own experiences as completely as possible. My
participation on this List and the sharing of some of those
events with the members of UFO UpDates is done to help raise
public awareness about the phenomenon and is _incidental_ to
that investigation. I wouldn't go before the public with my
reports and expect be taken seriously or at my word without that
prior and thorough investigation process having been performed
first. Or without the verification and backing of a research
person that can vouch for me (my character and my basic
soundness of mind) as well as the 'beyond the ordinary' nature
of the events I am reporting.

Anyone can 'say' they are an "abductee" or that they themselves
"think" they are being abducted. Without independent
verification by an (hopefully) objective third party it's just
their unverified word that you have to take. Some will openly
declare that they are not sure if they are even being abducted.
Reports from such a source should be given the weight that they
deserve. Unless that person and their claims have been checked
out and placed under close scrutiny, it's a case (for the
consumer of the information) of 'Caveat emptor.'

Having a case or a person "investigated" or researched does not
guarantee their accuracy or truthfulness. But at least you know
that 'someone else' has at minimum looked into it, checked the
person out, the details of what is being reported, and made the
educated determination that further investigation of their
claims/ reports is justified.

 >If so, how often?

To date the frequency of contact (for me) has been every few
years or so. It'll be 'quiet' for a while and then there will be
a burst of activity. Followed again by a long period of relative
peace and quiet. Contact has been cyclical in my case.

 >How long ago was the most recent one?

Not quite sure. I don't always 'recall' an event unless it
happened to me while fully conscious and awake.

 >What happened?

Read all the accounts that are already available. What "happens"
is what has already been repeatedly reported. You'll be on your
way home, or in your home when there is a sudden and unwanted
intrusion by "persons or things" of unknown origin and intent.
The 'details' of abduction events are out there in quantity. Hit
a Barnes & Noble or spend more time out at the archive. There
are more details documented there than you can shake a stick at.

 >I'm particularly intrigued - disturbed - by the abduction
 >phenomenon, and would value the input of those here who are
 >continuing to have those sorts of experiences in their lives to
 >comment upon them as much as they feel comfortable doing.

I can't speak for anybody else, but that's precisely what I've
been doing for almost six years right here on this List. You
really need to spend some time doing homework at the UFO Mind
archive.

 >The more pieces to this enigmatic jigsaw puzzle we can piece
 >together, the better....

Puzzle parts don't always 'fit' and if the "picture" is an
abstract one, it's anyone's guess as to which pieces even go
together.

Hope this helped.

John Velez

            A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
            www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                 johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
   "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."







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                    Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:20:37 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 20:31:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Mortellaro


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy
 >Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 23:46:04 -0400

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:10:48 EDT
 >>Subject: Caution - AA Autopsy
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>Not wishing to restrict any discussion and debate on this matter
 >>- not one dot - however, not all of us have copies of the CD's
 >>as originally distributed. There is a wealth of information on
 >>those CD's. The agreement was to have been as follows:

 >>Snip

 >Hello Jim and List.

 >This, Jim, is starting to look like defamation.

 >Grab the Gripple bottle, my friend, and enjoy the ride :)

 >I am not the kind of person who violates terms of agreements. I
 >know you don't mean it, but this is what I am accused of. It is
 >becoming some kind of mantra for Ed Gehrman and Dave Vetterick.

<snip>

 >Regards and appropriate appreciation,

 >[and without, surprisingly, an ounce of bitterness,]

 >Serge

Hi Serge, List, Errol (Are you _really_ an iggerent weiredo?),

Anyway,

I am out of this discussion after this post. I hope. I think I
hope.

It was my understanding from the begining that given the
material, I would limit my response to the providers of the
CD's. After the responses were compiled, the data would be
released. Period.

Given the expense involved in making and sending the CD's would,
to me, be caveat enough, to be more than cautious in directing
my responses. I suspecgted that those who went to the trouble
and expense they did, would have presumed such on us all. My
sorry excuse for an opinion in this matter is limited. I am not
a researcher and I am not one who is expert in photography. I am
merely a lonely little petunia in an onion patch. But having
been asked, I respected the bounty placed upon me.

My recomendations to Vetterick are in his hands. Twice. I am
sorry that this matter has become a hot potato(e). Like much
else on this list, it has become so. Therefore, I shall prepare
my Cafe' Barbera and sip the light fantastic whilst the rest of
you duke it out. Hopefully like gentlemen.

Ahhhh. Who the hell needs Ahoooooummmmm when I got this kinda
coffee? And who the hell needs Gripple? Eat your hearts out
Dudes and Dudesses.


Morty,

Good to the last drip...








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                   UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:49:01 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:09:51 -0400
Subject: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...


Hi everyone.

Unless we know for sure, whatever different beliefs we have
about anything, in this case the origins of some UFOs, our
beliefs are often based on many 'very reasonable' but not
necessarily true or proven assumptions. For example, many reject
the conclusion that some UFOs are extraterrestrial in origin
because it would take just too long for ETs to come here if they
originated from some distant world, even if this world was from
within our own galaxy. The enormous amount of energy required to
achieve the necessary speeds approaching that for light so that
the ETs could reach Earth within a human lifetime is so large,
we "safely" conclude that they simply cannot physically get here
from there. Maybe large speeds or big distances are not really
valid reasons to make this conclusion.

Below is an exciting and continuing development which one day
may allow us to "teleport" to worlds across the whole universe.
If 23rd century man has mastered it (I missed the two hour new
Star Trek series last night - was it any good?), maybe the ETs
have also mastered teleportation.

---

PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 558 September 26, 2001 by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben Stein,
and James Riordon

ENTANGLEMENT OF MACROSCOPIC OBJECTS, a pair of gas clouds
containing a trillion atoms each, has been achieved by a
research team in Denmark (Eugene Polzik, University of Aarhus,
011-45-89423745, polzik@ifa.au.dk), constituting by far the
largest material objects entangled on demand and paving the way
for quantum teleportation between macroscopic objects.

The accomplishment, published in this week's issue of Nature
(Julsgaard et al., 27 September 2001), was announced in
preliminary form this June at the first International Conference
on Quantum Information, sponsored in part by the Optical Society
of America and the American Physical Society.

One of the most profound features of quantum mechanics,
entanglement is a special interrelationship between objects in
which measuring one object instantly influences the other, even
if the two are completely isolated from one another. No previous
entanglement with atoms has involved more than four particles.

Furthermore, atoms have only been entangled at close proximity,
either as ions spaced microns apart in a tiny trap (Update 475),
or atoms flying over a short range through narrowly spaced
cavities (Hagley et al., Phys. Rev. Lett., 7 July 1997).

In the present experiment, researchers sent a light beam through
two cesium gas samples, each held in a special paraffin-coated
cell. The beam changed each sample's "collective spin," which
describes, in a sense, the net direction in which all of the
atoms' tiny magnets add up.

First, the researchers measured the sum of the two collective
spins without knowing the individual collective spin of each
sample. A subsequent measurement, nearly a millisecond later,
showed that the sum remained the same. This demonstrated that
the two gas samples maintained their special interrelation- ship
and were entangled.

Although the two samples were just millimeters apart, they could
in principle be separated, and thereby entangled, at much longer
distances. Entanglement of such large objects enables "bulk"
properties, like collective spin, to be "teleported," or
transferred, from one gas cloud to another.

<snip>

---

In the E.T. Life series of public seminars sponsored by York
University and scheduled to begin next month, we already have
many brilliant scientists, engineers, theologians, etc. who will
speak on this subject based on their own "very reasonable"
assumptions.

Unfortuately, although they may have no doubts that ETs are out
there, we have no speakers to present the evidence that ETs are
already here.

Any suggestions for such a speaker?









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                     Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Rebecca

From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:44:34 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:12:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Rebecca


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy
 >Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 23:46:04 -0400

<snip>

Personally, I think this whole thing stinks. And I appreciate
you laying everything out Serge.

 >Phase 3

 >On September 23, Rebecca answers my "AA puppet" post.

Had I known that this was gonna cause this big of stir, you can
bet I would have asked sooner! <G>

Nothing beats a good controversy.

 >Do I have the right to answer her? You bet.

And again, thanks for that.

 >Is this an infringement to the original agreement? No sir.

 From the evidence you presented, it doesn't appear to be an
infringement.

Although I haven't seen the CDs and I haven't seen the "autopsy"
video in years, I can't see where one would need the CDs to make
the point about the skull. One can see everything you commented
on in the video, right?

Thanks again!

Rebecca










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                      Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Morris

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 20:19:49 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:24:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Morris


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:10:48 EDT
 >Subject: Caution - AA Autopsy
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com


 >Not wishing to restrict any discussion and debate on this matter
 >- not one dot - however, not all of us have copies of the CD's
 >as originally distributed. There is a wealth of information on
 >those CD's. The agreement was to have been as follows:

 >Anyone having been delivered the CD sets were to have made
 >discussions on the site prepared for such. Which is why the CD's
 >were distributed in the first place. So, I would suggest, with
 >great caution and fear not to upset anyone here, that those of
 >us who _have_ the CD's follow the rules set up for us and avoid
 >further discussion _here_ until we've all had a chance to come
 >to some conclusions on the site provided us.

 >Do not misconstrue my intent. I am not interested (in fact, I am
 >the _last_ guy in the world who wishes to do so) in restricting
 >topic discussion. Only in this case, it was our agreement. We
 >who have the CD set.

 >Love and respect,

 >Jim Mortellaro

All,

Let me first say I hope I am a supporter of open discussion and
free exchange of research data. In the work I am still involved
in with RPIT and the FW images I have made (until recently when
my server had to be shut down) findings freely available to all
on the Internet and have also included the same data as a bonus
on the CD's. So why request the discussion of the AA CD sets be
held in a single forum?.

The answer is not earth shattering, but rather mundane, the 40
or so researchers who took up the initial offer to receive the
CD's and hopefully take part in this exercise, were also
provided with software to allow them to single step through the
films, frame by frame, this allows points and features to be
identified unambiguously by exact frame number, the only people
this reference information would make sense to is the people
taking part in the exercise.

If lengthy technical discussions referencing specific reel and
frame numbers were to start up on this (or any other List) I
believe it would quickly bore the pants off the rest of the
couple of thousand people out there who did not have immediate
access to the the CD's and software to follow what was being
discussed.

Personally, I'm only too happy to continue to enter into
_general_ discussions regarding the AA film here on UpDates but
how many lister's out there would want to put up with post after
post making references to specific points and referencing at say
01/reel53 frames 1045 to 1067.

Does it make any sense to you - do you know what these frames
hold?.

I think many would soon get rather annoyed with these type of
postings and quickly suggest the discussion be taken elsewhere.

So why not start "elsewhere" to begin with and avoid the hassle,
if folk _are_ that interested, pop in and have a browse round
Dave's site and even ask for a set of CD's and join in, though
we _will_ have to start covering our costs where the CD's are
concerned.


Neil








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                 Cydonian Imperative: Mars Life Controversy

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 17:33:14 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:30:23 -0400
Subject: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Life Controversy



The Cydonian Imperative
http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html
9-27-01

Lan Fleming Responds to NASA's Peculiar "Life on Mars"
Perspective

[Lan Fleming is a member of Scientists for Planetary SETI
Research and a contributor to "The Case for the Face." I extend
my thanks for letting me post his essay on The Cydonian
Imperative. Please visit his website at www.vgl.org. --Mac]

Dr. Timothy Titus of the USGS wrote an article denouncing
"glaring scientific errors" of the Hungarian scientists who
recently proposed a biological explanation for the dark spots
that form on martian dunes in the south polar region. Titus says
the paper is "riddled" with errors.

The article is at:

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-life-01h.html

The Hungarian paper is at:

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2001/pdf/1543.pdf


The first of the alleged glaring errors Titus cites is that the
Hungarians claimed that the temperatures in polar regions
dropped to -200 C (-328 F) when in fact, according to Titus, the
lowest temperatures are -126 C (- 195 F). But the Hungarian
paper makes absolutely no reference to any specific
temperatures. I can only speculate that Titus saw some previous
Internet article reporting on the Hungarian research that
confused Celsius and Fahrenheit and he attributes the error to
the researchers rather than the reporter.

The second alleged error was that the Hungarians propose, as
part of their biological interpretation of the dark spots, that
there is significant water ice in the southern polar latitudes.
The reason that this is supposedly an error is that Titus
himself flatly asserts that the south polar cap is composed
carbon dioxide ice, not water ice. That Titus labels
disagreement with his own unsupported interpretation as "error"
is suggestive of arrogance more than a scientific position. As
it turns out, there are other scientist that also doubt the
validity of Titus' flat assertion, including planetary scientist
Maria Zuber.

Rick Sterling, reported on the Cydonia email List contacted
Titus and informed him of Zuber's opinion. Most astoundingly,
Titus' reply was:

"This result is not unexpected. My boss, Dr. Hugh H. Kieffer,
has claimed that the residual south cap is water ice with a thin
layer of CO2 ice covering it. Of course - he had no proof to
base this belief until now. He also believes that there is a 100
year cycle where every 100 years, the CO2 ice completely
disappears - revealing the water ice. This may have happened in
1969."

How could he possibly say this so blandly when he has just
written an article denouncing the work of someone for expressing
an so opinion similar to that of his own boss? This is totally
mind-boggling.

The third "error" Titus attributed to the Hungarians was: "water
ice does exist on Mars, but sublimates around -100�F (-73�C),
due to the low atmospheric pressure of 6.1 mbars. Earth has a
surface pressure of 1000 mbars."

Titus own claim is in itself is a "glaring scientific error"
that I might expect from an unmotivated kid in a highschool
physics class, but not from a Ph.D. astrogeologist with the
United States Geological Survey, presumably getting paid to
study Mars. As a casual glance at the water phase diagram shows,
water ice is stable at Mars atmospheric pressures and
temperatures up to 0 degrees Celsius, and will even melt rather
than sublimate within a narrow range of temperatures. I don't
know where Titus got his numbers from. He might have confused
the CO2 phase diagram with the one for water. CO2 sublimates at
-78 C, but at Earth atmospheric pressure, not Mars.

If this is the quality of thought behind the research being done
on the data collected by the MGS, the entire project is a waste
of taxpayer's money. If, on the other hand, Titus knew what he
said is false, which I suspect is the case, then his article was
deliberate disinformation. It certainly does nothing to allay
suspicions that JPL and geologists politically aligned with them
are desperate to prevent biologists from getting involved in
planetary research.

Fortunately, while people associated with the MGS mission like
Titus engage in shrill and disingenuous attacks on other
scientists with different points of view, the European Space
Agency seems to be taking the rational approach one would expect
from a scientific organization. They aren't proclaiming that the
Hungarians have demonstrated "proof" of life on Mars; they've
merely said the evidence and arguments presented for life appear
interesting enough to deserve further investigation.

end

http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html









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              Re: UFO Conference - New Jersey 10-6/7-01 Addenda

From: Tom Benson <sparkle@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:31:24 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:37:22 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Conference - New Jersey 10-6/7-01 Addenda


 >From: Tom Benson <sparkle@earthlink.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: UFO Conference - New Jersey 10-6/7-01
 >Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 22:25:15 -0400

See:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2001/aug/m30-024.shtml


Dear List:

There has been a chnage in one of the speakers for the New
Jersey UFO conference:

Donald Rose is not attending because of another commitment.

The new speaker is Patrick Huyghe, a science writer, co-editor
of the "Anomalist" journal and author of several books. Pat will
discuss his latest book: Swamp Gas Times, My Two Decades on the
UFO beat.


Tom Benson









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               THE WATCHDOG: Shameless Sellers Trying To Turn

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 20:46:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:41:28 -0400
Subject: THE WATCHDOG: Shameless Sellers Trying To Turn


UFOWATCHDOG.COM
"Don't Trip On Your Open Mind"


Shameless Sellers Trying To Turn Tragedy Into Cash

http://www.ufowatchdog.com/shameless.html









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                Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... -

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 28 Sep 2001 07:02:56 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 10:25:16 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... -


 >Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:49:01 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

 >Hi everyone.

 >Unless we know for sure, whatever different beliefs we have
 >about anything, in this case the origins of some UFOs, our
 >beliefs are often based on many 'very reasonable' but not
 >necessarily true or proven assumptions. For example, many reject
 >the conclusion that some UFOs are extraterrestrial in origin
 >because it would take just too long for ETs to come here if they
 >originated from some distant world, even if this world was from
 >within our own galaxy. The enormous amount of energy required to
 >achieve the necessary speeds approaching that for light so that
 >the ETs could reach Earth within a human lifetime is so large,
 >we "safely" conclude that they simply cannot physically get here
 >from there. Maybe large speeds or big distances are not really
 >valid reasons to make this conclusion.

<snip>

Based on our current knowledge and technology we have speculated
that space travel is an enormous undertaking requiring vast
energy to attain fractional luminal velocities and every trufo
reported cannot possibly be another spacecraft bridging those
immense distances. But, is the reasoning correct? Are the
assumptions correct?

Some engineers and scientists are already speculating on how to
achieve superluminal speeds and traverse light-years almost as
quickly as Star Trek's Enterprise, but what if this happened
long ago and spacecraft set up bases of operation near earth and
on earth and that most trufos are launched from these nearby
facilities? That changes the perspective. Not every trufo has
just popped in from Alpha Remoteness 3.

Teleportation may be possible, but there is no indication here
on the tranport velocity which may not be any faster than light
speed.


-Bill H








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                        Bubbling Seas Can Sink Ships

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:42:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:42:17 -0400
Subject: Bubbling Seas Can Sink Ships

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991350

Bubbling seas can sink ships

19:00 26 September 01
Johanna Marchant

Lab tests have proved that bubbles can sink floating objects.
The findings add weight to suggestions that methane bubbles
escaping from methane reserves in the seabed might have been to
blame for vessels disappearing in the Bermuda Triangle and the
North Sea.

The Greek mathematician Archimedes realised that for something
to float, the density of the liquid has to be greater than the
density of the object. So a simple argument is that if you mix
enough bubbles into a liquid to lower its average density, an
object floating on its surface should sink. People have
suggested that this process is behind the mysterious demise of
many ships that sank for no obvious reason.

However, Bruce Denardo at the Naval Postgraduate School in
Monterey, California, was sceptical. He points out that rising
bubbles often carry currents of water up with them, exerting an
upwards force on the floating object. For all but the most
violent bubbles, this upward drag might be enough to keep an
object afloat.

Bubbling under

Denardo and his colleagues decided to test the theory. They
filled a four-litre glass beaker with water, then fed in air at
the bottom at varying speeds. Then they dropped in steel balls
filled with varying amounts of water and air to see how easily
they would sink. If, in the absence of rising bubbles, the ball
only just floated on the surface, switching on the bubbles made
it sink.

"We were surprised that the theory was confirmed," says Denardo.
"This is just what one might naively expect, but we expected
that an upward drag would occur."

Even so, the case isn't closed, Denardo says. Because the
experiment was carried out in a closed container, he thinks
upward currents might not have had room to form. In the open
sea, upwellings would form more easily in the region of the
bubbles, while the water would flow downwards again a short
distance away.

Secret weapon

Initially this would help a boat to stay afloat. But if the
vessel were swept slightly to one side, it might just hit the
down currents and sink.

Denardo concludes that we can't rule out the methane theory for
ships lost in the Bermuda Triangle. "If a phenomenon can be made
to occur in a lab, it probably occurs somewhere in the natural
universe," he says.

If bubbles can indeed sink ships, the military might want to use
them as a weapon. Michael Stumborg, a researcher at the US Naval
War College in Rhode Island, has proposed building "buoyancy
bombs" that would collect and release bubbles.

An underwater vehicle could extract methane from a deposit in
the seabed, then transport it to a point underneath a target
ship. "The release of the methane will reduce the buoyancy of
the ship and could in principle sink it," says Denardo.

Journal reference: American Journal of Physics (vol 69, p 1064)

19:00 26 September 01








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                     Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Rebecca

From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:37:54 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:01:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Rebecca


 >Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 20:19:49 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy


 >So why not start "elsewhere" to begin with and avoid the
 >hassle, if folk _are_ that interested, pop in and have a
 >browse round Dave's site and even ask for a set of CD's and
 >join in, though we _will_ have to start covering our costs
 >where the CD's are concerned.

Have you checked with your compadres on this?

I received an email that requested that I not divulge the
website address ever again. The email stopped short of asking me
to swear on a stack of Bibles. I never even knew a website
existed (for a very good reason) and certainly didn't know it
was classified. I mistakenly left the address that was posted by
another lister in a reply. Excuse me.

So are you now saying that the general public can go have a
look?

As for recouping your costs, I don't see why anyone should have
a problem with that.


Rebecca








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             Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Sparks

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:10:23 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:00:26 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Sparks


 >Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:49:01 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

 >Hi everyone.

 >Unless we know for sure, whatever different beliefs we have
 >about anything, in this case the origins of some UFOs, our
 >beliefs are often based on many 'very reasonable' but not
 >necessarily true or proven assumptions. For example, many reject
 >the conclusion that some UFOs are extraterrestrial in origin
 >because it would take just too long for ETs to come here if they
 >originated from some distant world, even if this world was from
 >within our own galaxy. The enormous amount of energy required to
 >achieve the necessary speeds approaching that for light so that
 >the ETs could reach Earth within a human lifetime is so large,
 >we "safely" conclude that they simply cannot physically get here
 >from there. Maybe large speeds or big distances are not really
 >valid reasons to make this conclusion.


What about the fact that UFO behavior is utterly inconsistent
with expected ET behavior, e.g., why would aliens travel across
the galaxy to have little entities dig up flowers in a French
lady's yard?


 ><snip>

 >In the E.T. Life series of public seminars sponsored by York
 >University and scheduled to begin next month, we already have
 >many brilliant scientists, engineers, theologians, etc. who will
 >speak on this subject based on their own "very reasonable"
 >assumptions.

 >Unfortuately, although they may have no doubts that ETs are out
 >there, we have no speakers to present the evidence that ETs are
 >already here.

 >Any suggestions for such a speaker?

What about speakers to present evidence _against_ ET's "already"
being here (via UFO's)?









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                      Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:14:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:04:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Sandow


 >Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 20:19:49 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy

 >Personally, I'm only too happy to continue to enter into
 >_general_ discussions regarding the AA film here on UpDates but
 >how many lister's out there would want to put up with post after
 >post making references to specific points and >referencing at say
 >01/reel53 frames 1045 to 1067.

 >Does it make any sense to you - do you know what these frames
 >hold?.

 >I think many would soon get rather annoyed with these type of
 >postings and quickly suggest the discussion be taken
 >elsewhere.

 >So why not start "elsewhere" to begin with and avoid
 >the hassle,

But Neil, all this means is to avoid discussion here that's too
technical for anyone to follow. That's a general rule we all
ought to follow, no matter what we talk about. I'm speaking now
as someone who was offered the CDs, and got them. I was as
surprised as Serge is by the change in the rules. I can't see
why we shouldn't discuss what we've learned here.

Having said that, I'll say the film leaves me not knowing what
to think, largely because I can't enter the discussion at the
technical level others have. Maybe when I've looked at it more,
I'll have more to say. Meanwhile, there's one thing I wish for -
peer review (or something like it), of comments others make.
Serge's point about the brain removal makes sense to me, but I'd
like to see what others - surgeons, for example, or medical
examiners - have to say. I feel the same about an article in
Flatland magazine, which I assume we all got, as I did, with the
CDs. It argues that one piece of the debris couldn't be faked,
because of details of its construction. That argument also seems
plausible to me, but I don't know enough to judge it. So there,
too, I'd like comments from people with the technical expertise
to judge better than I can.


Greg Sandow










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             Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Murray

From: Marty Murray <mmurray31@home.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:35:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:08:54 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Murray


 >Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 10:49:01 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

Nick wrote:

 >Hi everyone.

 >Unless we know for sure, whatever different beliefs we have
 >about anything, in this case the origins of some UFOs, our
 >beliefs are often based on many 'very reasonable' but not
 >necessarily true or proven assumptions. For example, many reject
 >the conclusion that some UFOs are extraterrestrial in origin
 >because it would take just too long for ETs to come here if they
 >originated from some distant world, even if this world was from
 >within our own galaxy. The enormous amount of energy required to
 >achieve the necessary speeds approaching that for light so that
 >the ETs could reach Earth within a human lifetime is so large,
 >we "safely" conclude that they simply cannot physically get here
 >from there. Maybe large speeds or big distances are not really
 >valid reasons to make this conclusion.

 >Below is an exciting and continuing development which one day
 >may allow us to "teleport" to worlds across the whole universe.
 >If 23rd century man has mastered it (I missed the two hour new
 >Star Trek series last night - was it any good?), maybe the ETs
 >have also mastered teleportation.

Howdy Nick & All,

I think it would be very foolish of us to make any assumptions
about interstellar travel based upon our very limited knowledge.
At some point in the future, I'm sure, it may turn out to be
just as easy as it is shown to be in "Star Trek."

As for the new series, I thought the premiere episode was great.
Scott Bakula makes a good captain. There's a lot of action, with
Bakula making like a futuristic Chow-Yun Fat with his
double-handed phaser play, and the new Vulcan science officer is
even better looking than 7 of 9! It has a totally different tone
to it than the other series. I think you'll enjoy it.


Take care,

Marty








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                      Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Morris

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 18:52:04 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:13:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Morris


 >Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 08:37:54 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 20:19:49 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy

 >>So why not start "elsewhere" to begin with and avoid the
 >>hassle, if folk _are_ that interested, pop in and have a
 >>browse round Dave's site and even ask for a set of CD's and
 >>join in, though we _will_ have to start covering our costs
 >>where the CD's are concerned.

 >Have you checked with your compadres on this?

 >I received an email that requested that I not divulge the
 >website address ever again. The email stopped short of asking me
 >to swear on a stack of Bibles. I never even knew a website
 >existed (for a very good reason) and certainly didn't know it
 >was classified. I mistakenly left the address that was posted by
 >another lister in a reply. Excuse me.

 >So are you now saying that the general public can go have a
 >look?

Rebecca,

Dave's site only went live recently and only in testing mode, it
is _still_ being built. I can perfectly understand Dave's
reluctance to having the URL spread far and wide at this very
early stage in the exercise. But noted, accidents do happen.

I know Dave had hoped to have the site available this month
(Oct) but I also now know this may slip into November to give
further time for feedback to come in from those parties involved
with the CD project. Give it a little time, this is a work in
progress.

Please be assured this is _not_ an attempt to _limit_
discussion, but rather to provide a focused, in-depth resource
to _promote_  _more_ discussion and research into the subject of
the AA film.

Neil.








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                          Secrecy News -- 09/28/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@igc.org>
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:56:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:16:17 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 09/28/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
September 28, 2001


**   "CULTURAL REVOLUTION" IN INTELLIGENCE NEEDED
**   DISRUPTING TERRORIST FINANCIAL NETWORKS
**   FISA OVERSIGHT


"CULTURAL REVOLUTION" IN INTELLIGENCE NEEDED

The defects of the U.S. intelligence bureaucracy can no longer
be ignored, says the House Permanent Select Committee on
Intelligence in a new report which urges structural reforms and
increased resources for intelligence.

"The  United States has placed undue risks on its national
security interests by not redressing the many critical problems
facing the Intelligence Community," the Committee report said.
"There is a fundamental need for both a cultural revolution
within the Intelligence Community as well as significant
structural changes."

The Committee cites the familiar litany of problems in human
intelligence, signals intelligence, analysis, and foreign
language capability and "implores" the Administration to revise
its budget planning to allocate greater resources for
intelligence, "our first line of defense."

The Committee notes that two Bush Administration reviews of
intelligence are underway.  "If history serves, however, no
major substantive changes will occur after these reviews are
complete. The Committee believes that major changes  are
necessary."

"The Administration must broadly address the shortfalls and
needs of the Community, lest we continue to suffer attacks such
as  those inflicted on September 11, 2001--or worse!"

The new House Intelligence Committee report, dated September 26,
is available here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2001_rpt/hrep107-219.html


DISRUPTING TERRORIST FINANCIAL NETWORKS

"Any effective anti-terrorism campaign must include tracking the
money supply that funds terrorism and shutting it down," said
Senator Carl Levin on Wednesday.  "Disrupting terrorists'
financial networks is vital to ending their ability to carry out
massive terrorist operations like the September 11th tragedy."

An attempt to carry out such disruption is already one of the
prongs of the U.S. government's response to the recent terrorist
attacks.  While there are intrinsic limits to what can be
accomplished through this approach, there is also evidently much
that can be achieved.

With this in mind, the Treasury Department has established a new
Foreign Terrorist Asset Tracking Center which "is dedicated to
identifying the financial infrastructure of terrorist
organizations worldwide and curtail their ability to move money
through the international banking system."

These and related efforts were the subject of a particularly
informative hearing before the Senate Banking Committee on
September 26.

Senator Levin described what is already known about the
financing of the al-Qaeda network.  Treasury Under Secretary
Jimmy Gurule reported on the new Tracking Center and the 2001
National Money Laundering Strategy.  Jonathan Winer, a former
State Department deputy assistant secretary, discussed "what we
can do to combat terrorist finance" and provided a detailed set
of options.

The prepared testimony from the Senate Banking Committee hearing
may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2001_hr/index.html#ml

On September 24, President Bush issued an executive order that
"expands the Treasury Department's power to target the support
structure of terrorist organizations."  See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2001/09/wh092401.html


FISA OVERSIGHT

The 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) is the law
governing intelligence surveillance and physical search of those
who are suspected of being agents of a foreign power.

Amendments to that law are now under consideration in Congress
in connection with the September 11 terrorist attacks.

The last time that FISA was subjected to significant
congressional investigation and amendment was in the aftermath
of the Wen Ho Lee case last year.

The transcript of a March 2000 Senate Judiciary Committee
hearing on FISA and the "Counterintelligence Reform Act of 2000"
was published last week. It is available here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2000_hr/hr030700.htm


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:
    subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:
    http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691







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                           Alfred's Odd Ode #353b

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 15:58:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:20:51 -0400
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #353b


I'm a mote of consciousness, aware of self and quite remiss if I
don't shake an angry finger, poke it in your EYE and _linger_,
and let you know I'm _not_ amused regarding what we're sold as
truth.

...We don't get a useful smidgen, we're treated like convenient
pigeons, and we are pieces in a game for power brokers gone
insane!

What's the answer (you'd ask me), and I'd respond "I must be
free." And that is all I'd need to say 'cause *freedom* is the
_only_ way! Freedom is a full disclosure, coming forward, ever
bolder; lies and fraud to fall away or fire up the will to pay!
Stepping backwards not an answer; that's a vicious social
cancer! It detracts from UFOs _existing_ up your Roman nose...

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

Sorry <wiping finger on a handi-wipe>... it had to be done (the
people dodging the finger know who they are), but it's a class
"A" royal bitch when I look around me on the street and all I
see are cowards!

Why? Cowards 'cause they won't take the hard look! Cowards
insisting I validate their faith! Cowards throwing freedom away
to cover their candy-coated asses -- so desperate for their
shred of illusionary *security*. Cowardice in the name of
patriotism! Cowardice _instead of_ rationalism! Cowards striking
murderous sucker punches from the cowardly shadows we cowardly
Americans have made for ourselves in an unending campaign of
cowardly ignorance! Cowards of every stripe, flavor, creed and
nationality. Christian cowards and cowards of Islam... Cowards
to speak for cowards as cowards write the words... It's time for
an END to cowardice!

I don't know if it's a hoax or not but there is an interesting
picture at http://www.alienview.net/rabid.html . You don't have
to look hard, but it's hard to look... The title should be
"Sucker Punch"...

Did you ever get the feeling that you were being watched? Bet on
it!


~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.








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              Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Hale

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 01:36:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:22:37 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Hale


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: 28 Sep 2001 07:02:56 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

<snip>

 >But what if this happened long ago and spacecraft set up
 >bases of operation near earth and on earth and that most
 >trufos are launched from these nearby facilities?


Bill,

I am aware of at least one place where such activity may take
place. It is currently, and has been for a very long time,
sealed off with a no-fly zone, and apparently NASA seem to like
photographing it from space?

One witness informed me off huge electrical current sounds as
well as UFO sightings at this place, could suggest that this
particular remote place is one to consider.

It is in Brazil.


Regards,

Roy..







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                Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... -

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:05:52 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 07:11:17 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... -


 >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 01:36:27 +0100
 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

<snip>

 >One witness informed me off huge electrical current
 >sounds as
 >well as UFO sightings at this place, could suggest
 >that this
 >particular remote place is one to consider.

 >It is in Brazil.

I don't rule out some "trufos" originating from bases on Earth,
but I'm more astronomically inclined. If _some_ UFOs are "nuts
and bolts", the visiting aliens would be foolish to overlook
such places as the lunar farside, the Asteroid Belt, and
possibly the ring systems of the Jovian planets as sources of
abundant raw material.

Author/physicist Gregory Benford has made the same argument.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 816-561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
           http://mactonnies.com








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                          Appelle - Aliens Among Us

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 07:17:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 07:17:46 -0400
Subject: Appelle - Aliens Among Us

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=2421069&BRD=1891&PAG=461&dept_id=12157
3&rfi=6


Friday 28 September, 2001


Aliens Among Us

Christine C. Fien/Messenger Post Staff
September 27, 2001


SUNY Brockport Professor Discusses The Alien Abduction Experience

Nearly one million Americans say they've had an alien abduction
experience.

While there's many conventional explanations for the
experiences, no one theory can totally account for the
phenomena, says Dr. Stuart Appelle, psychology professor at SUNY
Brockport.

Appelle's interest in perception and consciousness has led him
to study the alien abduction experience. His work has appeared
in the journal "Science" and several other publications. He is
also editor of the "Journal of UFO Studies", an academic journal
dedicated to UFO-related phenomena.

Appelle is interested in the abduction experience and the degree
to which abductees report very similar experiences.

"Many people feel that the consistency, in and of itself, is
strong evidence that people are reporting real experiences," he
said. "Even the sequence is the same."

Most abductees report being taken from their bedrooms, or after
they are stopped in their vehicles along an isolated strip of
road, Appelle explained. They usually report some kind of close
encounter, such as seeing a UFO or even aliens.

"Generally, this is followed by a period of amnesia," Appelle
said. "The next thing they know, the UFO is gone and they're
back in their car traveling down the highway, and an hour or two
has passed and they can't account for it."

When the "memory" returns, either spontaneously or through
hypnosis, abductees claim to have been aboard a spaceship or in
an "unusual environment," Appelle said.

"Typically, they are subjected to various physical and
psychological examinations, carried out by beings that look not
human," he said.

Most abductees describe aliens similarly; gray, about 4- or
5-feet tall, with disproportionately large heads for their
bodies, and very large, almond-shaped eyes.

Popular theories that attempt to explain the abduction
phenomena, unsuccessfully, include hypnosis and sleep-paralysis,
Appelle said, adding that neither can account for all reports of
alien abductions.

Hypnosis can create false memories, Appelle said, and abductees
don't go to a hypnotist out of the blue. They go because they
have "missing time" - sometimes hours they can't account for -
or suspect they may have been abducted.

While hypnosis may embellish the story, the core experience is
still there, Appelle said.

Sleep-paralysis as an explanation to debunk abduction accounts
also falls short, he said. During an occurrence of
sleep-paralysis, people wake up feeling like they can't move,
can't speak, and sometimes sense a disturbing presence in the
room. The problem is, Appelle said, that this theory doesn't
explain highway abductions. Sleep-paralysis experiences also
tend to be very vague, while accounts of alien abductions are
rich in detail, he said.

"Sometimes you can even get down to details of such things like
emblems on uniforms," he said.

Appelle said he is "open-minded" on the subject of abductions.

"I don't, like some people, think that it is inherently
impossible, so I'm willing to entertain the idea that these
experiences are exactly what they seem to be," he said. "It's a
phenomena that does not yet have a documented explanation."

Appelle will lecture on reports of alien abduction at 7:30 p.m.
Sunday, Oct. 14, at the R.I.C. University Center, 1150
University Ave. For more information, call Rochester
Info-courses at 256-1960.


�Irondequoit Post 2001









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                 Atom Experiment Brings Teleportation Closer

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 07:21:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 07:21:07 -0400
Subject: Atom Experiment Brings Teleportation Closer

http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=8&id=87339


Atom Experiment Brings Teleportation Closer

Reuters-- Thursday, September 27, 2001 at 09:30 JST LONDON
Physicists in Denmark have made two samples of trillions of
atoms interact at a distance in an experiment which may bring
"Star Trek"-style teleportation and rapid quantum computing
closer to reality.

Eugene Polzik and his colleagues at the University of Aarhus are
not about to beam anyone up to the Starship Enterprise, but
their research reported in the science journal Nature on
Wednesday makes the idea of instantly transporting an object
from one place to another less far fetched.

It involves quantum entanglement � a mysterious concept of
entwining two or more particles without physical contact. Albert
Einstein once described it as "spooky action at a distance."

Entangled states are needed for quantum computing and
teleportation. Scientists have entangled states of a few atoms
in earlier experiments but Polzik and his team have done it with
very large numbers and using laser light.

"It is the first result where two macroscopic material objects
have been entangled," Polzik explained in a telephone interview.

"We have produced entanglement at a distance which means you and
me can share entangled objects which is important for quantum
communication, including quantum teleportation."

In 1998 what has been described as the first teleportation
experiment was done when scientists at the California Institute
of Technology teleported a beam of light across a laboratory
bench.

Ignacio Cirac, a physicist at the University of Innsbruck in
Austria said achievement of Polzik and his team could lead to
real-life quantum communication systems, teleportation and
quantum computers.

"This is the first time two different atomic samples have been
entangled in this way � using light � even though the samples
are separated by some distance," he said in a commentary in
Nature.

Cirac believes further experiments will follow which could
"revolutionise the field of quantum information." (Reuters News)


  � Reuters 2001









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              Terrestrial Tragedy Different Context At UFO Expo

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 07:26:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 07:26:37 -0400
Subject: Terrestrial Tragedy Different Context At UFO Expo

http://www.sfweekly.com/issues/2001-09-26/nightcrawler.html


Alien Culture

Terrestrial Tragedy Has An Entirely Different Context At
The UFO Expo

By Silke Tudor


Just a few short days after the World Trade Centers were gored
by two passenger planes, a jet airliner roars overhead, low
enough in the sky to make the company logo visible, as it
prepares for descent into San Jose International Airport. As the
bone-rattling sound fades into the seemingly peaceful azure
distance, a volley of screams perforates the midmorning air.
Intellectually, I know that Paramount's Great America is just
around the bend - I can see the crest of several roller coasters
rising in primary-colored splendor less than a baseball's throw
away - but viscerally I know something else: I'm frightened and
on alert. I wonder at the fortitude, or fortunate insensibility,
of the folks who drove to Santa Clara today to invoke terror by
way of a 91-foot climb to the top of the Vortex, instead of just
watching CNN. I also wonder at the multitudinous other
techniques the human psyche has developed to battle the effects
of tragedy.

"In light of the horrible events that occurred on Tuesday, I
think it's even more important and urgent that we open up
communication with extraterrestrials on a global scale," says
Arizona music instructor Pinchemel Luz, one of the 900 people
who made it to the third annual Bay Area UFO Expo, in spite of
airport closures. "If we had access to alien technology, we'd
have an endless power source, and we wouldn't have to meddle in
the affairs of Middle Eastern countries. This whole thing could
have been avoided if the government would just come clean with
what they already know. We don't need oil. Our government knows
that. They've known it for years."

Luz turns on his heel and marches into the Marriott Hotel with
the air of a man doing his solemn duty. In the hall, he passes a
woman cheerfully toying with two green alien finger puppets. (I
am told the race represented by the puppets should be closer to
"dolphin-gray" in color.) But for the most part, the
conventioneers in the hallway are as grave as botanists as they
map their hectic schedules, juggling over a dozen lectures and
workshops while trying to squeeze in time for lunch and
shopping/research in the expo hall. The average age of the
conventioneers is older than I expected, and not a single soul
is wearing antennae.

"What, did you think this was going to be like a Star Trek
convention?" mocks a Washington nurse practitioner. "A lot of
these people are doctors, researchers, businessmen, activists
... thoughtful people."

Thoughtful people with interesting childhoods.

"I saw a UFO when I was 12," admits first-time conventioneer and
Oregon resident Barbara Coursey after some persistent wheedling.
"There had been sightings all through the South that summer. It
was the summer of 1948 or '49. Whole towns were seeing it.
Together. But the government dismissed it, saying these people
were drunk, those people were crazy, that whole town was under
mass hypnosis - just making stuff up to hide the facts. But I
know what I saw. It was cigar-shaped and had a red, sparkly
glow. It rose up very slowly, almost elegantly, and then just
took off - pteewww - at a right angle." To illustrate the fact,
Coursey slices her hand through the air as fast as she is
physically able, a gesture that is duplicated by numerous people
throughout the day in a futile attempt to convey speed. "It was
really, really fast."

"But my grandfather said, "Don't you tell anyone about this. I
won't have folks saying mine are crazy,'" continues Coursey. "In
my family, you listened to Grandpa, so I didn't mention it to a
soul for almost 30 years."

"That's the problem," says Sharon Macek, a local optometrist who
"sadly" has never seen a UFO herself. "Credible people are
afraid to put their reputations on the line, so people walk
around with these huge experiences, these huge ... experiences,
buried in their subconscious because society says anyone who
believes in aliens is completely woo-woo. The government could
change all that tomorrow if they wanted. Full disclosure."

The Disclosure Project, directed by Dr. Steven M. Greer, a
family practitioner from North Carolina with four daughters and
a golden retriever, is a "nonprofit research project working to
fully disclose the facts about UFOs, extraterrestrial
intelligence, and classified advanced energy and propulsion
systems." In May of this year, the Disclosure Project staged one
of the largest press conferences in the recent history of the
National Press Club in Washington, D.C., during which Greer
brought forward more than 20 military, government, and corporate
eyewitnesses to offer testimony about their UFO and
extraterrestrial sightings. In the course of his campaign, Greer
has recorded more than 120 hours of interviews with such
witnesses, which he distilled to two hours for Senate hearings.
On July 27, prompted by the conviction and information offered
by Greer in a lecture, Berkeley resident Lara Johnstone embarked
on a 44-day hunger strike (her diet did include water, fresh
fruit and vegetable juices mixed with spirulina and protein
powder, herbal teas, wheatgrass juice, and soup drained of
solids) in support of the Disclosure Project even though she
didn't consider herself a member of the UFO community prior to
seeing Greer speak.

"The witnesses were so courageous," says 34-year-old Johnstone,
who is, admittedly, no stranger to hunger strikes. (Since moving
to Berkeley two years ago she has also embarked on a hunger
strike against the policies of the California Department of
Corrections.) "And I wanted to support their right to speak
openly in court. Dr. Greer's speech was incredibly strong and
powerful. And he said, "I'm prepared to give my life for this
cause because this is that important.' And I thought, "What am I
willing to give?'"

Even from the back wall of the overcapacity California Ballroom,
it's easy to see Greer's sway. As charismatic, well-spoken, and
coolly verbose as a well-trained politician, Greer suggests that
open knowledge of alien presence and technology will end
poverty, facilitate justice, and lead to global peace. If only
we all knew what the government knows.

"The Air Force says they are no longer investigating UFOs," says
20-year-old John Greenewald Jr., whose relentless research under
the Freedom of Information Act at Canadian government agencies
has led to an archive of more than 80,000 government papers,
which he makes available at www.blackvault.com. "I have
documents that say otherwise. That is the single most important
piece of information anyone can offer. It draws everything else
into question."

According to Phillip Krapf, a former copy editor for the Los
Angeles Times, government disclosure would have been unnecessary
if not for the bombing of the World Trade Centers. While aboard
a spaceship (800 feet in diameter) in 1997, and again in 2000,
he learned, along with 850 prominent humans known as the
Ambassadors, that the alien species known as Verdants were
planning for imminent, open contact in 2002, but now they're
reconsidering.

"The time line has been changed now," says Krapf during his
workshop, "but they've seen this before."

Still, according to a large percentage of expo attendees and
most lecturers, there is no shortage of contact.

Melinda Leslie, an employee for a large Southern California
architectural firm, claims to have been abducted for the first
time when she was a child, and says the contact has continued
throughout her life.

"My abduction experiences are pretty typical," says Leslie.
"They've taken eggs, introduced me to hybrid children, monitored
my reactions as I was presented with possible disaster and
catastrophe scenarios."

Leslie doesn't seem terribly troubled by the alien abductions;
her real concern is with military re-abduction.

"They [the military] want to know what I know," says Leslie with
a calm, sure gaze. "The co-author of my book pulled out of the
project because her life was threatened. My roommate's daughter
moved out of our house because she was scared."

"Purple Rose," the manager of an Oklahoma trucking office, can
offer countless experiences that people might describe as
out-of-body, but that she knows to be extraterrestrial in
nature. "They started when I was 4," says Rose, lighting her
fourth cigarette, her eyes darting across the parking lot, up at
the sky, and back again. "They took me and my sister, but my
sister doesn't remember; she was too young."

Rose recalls her first ship sighting at the age of 15 while she
and a girlfriend were enjoying a beer with a couple of guys in a
pickup truck in Northern California. "They were scared," says
Rose, showing a tinge of contempt for her friends. "They thought
their lives were going to end, but I was just curious. I got out
of the truck to look; the ship was directly overhead. I'm not
fear-based."

Among Rose's experiences, which include contact with as many as
10 alien races (including one with amphibian features) and
numerous styles of spacecraft (including a long "mall-sized"
ship with foliage, huge pedestrian thoroughfares, and ambient
lighting that materialized from the air), there have been some
frightening turns.

"I've felt very uncomfortable with some of the aliens," says
Rose, brushing her waist-length blond hair out of her face but
still avoiding eye contact. "Some bad things have happened
around me afterwards."

A natural reaction, according to Marshall Vian Summers, who
conducts one of the more poorly attended lectures of the
weekend. "If a human being took you from your home in the middle
of the night and physically and mentally tortured you," says
Summers, "you'd want them punished."

Anna K., a 37-year-old shiatsu practitioner from San Francisco,
counters that while her abduction 14 years ago seemed invasive
at first, she has since come to see it as benevolent.

"There's a lot of emphasis on getting abductees to empathize
with their attackers," Summers responds. "That way the
[abductees] are more responsive to the biological coding..... No
one should give up their power like that."

After the lecture, however, Anna K. considers, and rejects,
Summers' stance. "He sounds paranoid," she says. "Saying all
aliens are bad is like saying all humans are bad. There's a lot
that's positive in the human experiences as well."

Anna K.'s abduction occurred on a New Zealand kiwi farm while
she was outside looking at the stars. She recalls the vivid
sensation of falling and the next thing she remembers is being
shaken awake by two farmhands and taken to a nearby hospital
where she was treated for hypothermia. Bruises were found on her
inner thighs - from alien medical exams and extraterrestrial
impregnation, says Anna K. Over the years, with the help of
rebirthing techniques, she has pieced together memories of her
alien abductors.

"I opened myself up to some sort of contact in New Zealand,"
says Anna K. "I remember saying that I was willing to do
anything for the good of humanity. These sorts of things don't
come unbidden."

"I think [extraterrestrial] contact is, for the most part,
benevolent," says Lucia August, a mild-voiced, purple-clad
psychotherapist who operates the East Bay Contact Support
Network. "But even mild first contact can, initially, be
traumatic. It's a paradigm-shattering experience, and it takes a
long time for some people to come to terms with what they've
experienced. Some of them have trouble even remembering it.
First, they need to remember; then they might need crisis
management, education, and contact with other experiencers.
That's really important, having a connection with other people
that understand."







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             Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 03:57:37 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 07:45:53 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Hatch


 >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 01:36:27 +0100
 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Date: 28 Sep 2001 07:02:56 -0700
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

 ><snip>

 >>But what if this happened long ago and spacecraft set up
 >>bases of operation near earth and on earth and that most
 >>trufos are launched from these nearby facilities?

 >Bill,

 >I am aware of at least one place where such activity may take
 >place. It is currently, and has been for a very long time,
 >sealed off with a no-fly zone, and apparently NASA seem to like
 >photographing it from space?

 >One witness informed me off huge electrical current sounds as
 >well as UFO sightings at this place, could suggest that this
 >particular remote place is one to consider.

 >It is in Brazil.



Hello Roy:


Might your friend (in Brazil?) be able to provide longitude and
latitude for this special place?

It makes it much easier to check on a map.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch









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             Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Randle

From: Keevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 08:48:58 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 09:37:16 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Randle


 >Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:05:52 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>


 >>Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 01:36:27 +0100
 >>From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

 ><snip>

 >Author/physicist Gregory Benford has made the same argument.

Ah, but we can't believe what he says because he writes science
fiction. I know that he is a member of Science Fiction Writers of
America because I just looked his name up in the SFWA directory.

KRandle






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               CE: CAUS Bulletin: Court Sets 11-6-2001 to Hear

From: Tim Edwards <tedwards@PSKNET.COM>
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 02:05:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 09:40:32 -0400
Subject: CE: CAUS Bulletin: Court Sets 11-6-2001 to Hear

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: CAUS Bulletin: Court Sets 11-6-2001 to Hear DoD Appeal
Date: 29 Sep 2001 04:51:56 -0000
From: caus@caus.org
Reply-To: caus@caus.org
To: <caus-list@caus.org>

----------------------
CAUS in COURT: CAUS v. Department of Defense
----------------------
In the midst of our turmoil, the U.S. Court of Appeals has
decided to listen to oral arguments in Citizens Against UFO
Secrecy v. Department of Defense (DoD). The case will be argued
in San Francisco on November 6, 2001 at 9:00am.

For those unfamiliar with the nature and background of this
lawsuit, I suggest you view the information on the CAUS web
site. Simply stated, it is a lawsuit under the Freedom of
Information Act (FOIA) for information about the "Flying
Triangles" that have been seen in our skies. The DoD has stated
that that it conducted a reasonable search but could not find
any information. CAUS is arguing that the DoD did not do any
search.

The essence of this lawsuit involves our right to know about an
advanced technology in our reality, especially when that
technology is evidence of another intelligence.

The hearing is open to the public.  CAUS would like a large
turnout for this hearing. We can make a statement on November 6
if enough people show up. Information as to the location of the
courthouse as well as the courtroom will soon be posted on the
CAUS web site.

Peter A. Gersten, Esq.
Director

--
*So much to learn and so little time!*

DreamScape
http://timledwards.users.50megs.com/dreamscape.htm









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                Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 08:49:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 09:46:53 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... -


 >From: Keevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 08:48:58 EDT
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:05:52 -0700 (PDT)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 01:36:27 +0100
 >>>From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

 >><snip>

 >>Author/physicist Gregory Benford has made the same argument.

 >Ah, but we can't believe what he says because he writes science
 >fiction. I know that he is a member of Science Fiction Writers of
 >America because I just looked his name up in the SFWA directory.
 >
 >KRandle

This was a joke, right?

Lehmberg@snowhill.com



~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.









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   Sep > Sep 29

                      Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Morris

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 14:29:51 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 11:23:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Morris


 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy
 >Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:14:19 -0400

 >>Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 20:19:49 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy

 >>Personally, I'm only too happy to continue to enter into
 >>_general_ discussions regarding the AA film here on UpDates but
 >>how many lister's out there would want to put up with post after
 >>post making references to specific points and >referencing at say
 >>01/reel53 frames 1045 to 1067.

 >>Does it make any sense to you - do you know what these frames
 >>hold?.

 >>I think many would soon get rather annoyed with these type of
 >>postings and quickly suggest the discussion be taken
 >>elsewhere.

 >>So why not start "elsewhere" to begin with and avoid
 >>the hassle,

 >But Neil, all this means is to avoid discussion here that's too
 >technical for anyone to follow. That's a general rule we all
 >ought to follow, no matter what we talk about. I'm speaking now
 >as someone who was offered the CDs, and got them. I was as
 >surprised as Serge is by the change in the rules. I can't see
 >why we shouldn't discuss what we've learned here.


Greg,

I think there has been some confusion here, as I see it at any
rate. It was intended, after the CD's were distributed and
watched by the parties involved that, in return, they put
together a new personal review of the film in the light of
watching (and hopefully with the aid of the provided software,
freshly analysing) the film in the new format. Then submitting
this review to Dave who was acting as coordinator, and was
meanwhile putting together the website where these reviews could
be posted whether pro or anti.

Currently my own thoughts are that a specific mailing List aimed
at this research might further be set up to aid the in depth
discussion of the subject of the AA, I suspect Errol would feel
the remit of UpDates would not carry to this specialised
discussion?. I personally think it would be imposing on the many
UpDates readers for the reasons I made in an earlier post, and
who also may not have such a deep and continuing interest in the
subject.

 >Having said that, I'll say the film leaves me not knowing what
 >to think, largely because I can't enter the discussion at the
 >technical level others have. Maybe when I've looked at it more,
 >I'll have more to say. Meanwhile, there's one thing I wish for -
 >peer review (or something like it), of comments others make.

This is exactly what Dave's website can provide by posting the
various reviews.

 >Serge's point about the brain removal makes sense to me, but I'd
 >like to see what others - surgeons, for example, or medical
 >examiners - have to say. I feel the same about an article in
 >Flatland magazine, which I assume we all got, as I did, with the
 >CDs. It argues that one piece of the debris couldn't be faked,
 >because of details of its construction. That argument also seems
 >plausible to me, but I don't know enough to judge it. So there,
 >too, I'd like comments from people with the technical expertise
 >to judge better than I can.

Many people forget, or just don't realise many opinions were
sought _and_ obtained back in 1995 on most of the contentious
points of the AA and these are as valid now as then.

Unfortunately there is no one repository where these can be
found and reviewed, again Dave might be able to provide this
resource with his site.

Neil









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                          Re: Caution - AA Autopsy

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 11:41:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 11:41:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy

 >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 14:29:51 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy

 >>From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy
 >>Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:14:19 -0400

 ><snip>

 >>But Neil, all this means is to avoid discussion here that's too
 >>technical for anyone to follow. That's a general rule we all
 >>ought to follow, no matter what we talk about. I'm speaking now
 >>as someone who was offered the CDs, and got them. I was as
 >>surprised as Serge is by the change in the rules. I can't see
 >>why we shouldn't discuss what we've learned here.

 >Greg,

<snip>

 >Currently my own thoughts are that a specific mailing List aimed
 >at this research might further be set up to aid the in depth
 >discussion of the subject of the AA, I suspect Errol would feel
 >the remit of UpDates would not carry to this specialised
 >discussion?. I personally think it would be imposing on the many
 >UpDates readers for the reasons I made in an earlier post, and
 >who also may not have such a deep and continuing interest in the
 >subject.


Neil,

I have no objection to such discussion on UFO UpDates - as long
as participants are subscribed here, references to items at
Dave's site include the appropriate URLs, the 'Subject:' line
leads with 'AA: ' and said discussions don't devolve into
tiresome slanging matches. Subscribers who don't want to read
those posts always have the option of hitting their 'Delete'
keys.

Setting up another E-mail List _is_ an alternative - much like
better mouse traps and differently-shaped wheels.


Errol Bruce-Knapp
UFO UpDates - Toronto













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             Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 07:24:41 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 11:45:43 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Hatch


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 08:48:58 EDT
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:05:52 -0700 (PDT)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 01:36:27 +0100
 >>>From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

 >><snip>

 >>Author/physicist Gregory Benford has made the same argument.

 >Ah, but we can't believe what he says because he writes science
 >fiction. I know that he is a member of Science Fiction Writers of
 >America because I just looked his name up in the SFWA directory.

 >KRandle

- - -

Hello Kevin:

I try to dream up science fiction plots as a way to fall asleep
nights. Its kinda fun, and works well on weekdays when other
methods are off limits.

One plot has a human temporarily adopted as a sort of "pet" by
space aliens (intelligent robot types actually) who
underestimate his powers of recall.

His fractured memories include their evasive answers to sensible
questions, yet offer little clues to their motives, methods, and
means.

This is a harmless and pleasant way to speculate, without
putting ones reputation on the line; sort of like playing Cocoa
Futures with Monopoly Money.

Anyhow, I cannot completely discount the words of a SF writer,
and I'm sure that's not what you meant to imply.

The important thing is the presentation. If a Sci Fi writer
presents something as "fact", as Whitley Strieber did for
example, then his or her name is on the line like anybody else
writing "non-fiction".

Perhaps there should be a third section at the bookstore. A nice
big sign might say "Non-Fact". Now more than ever, there is a
real need for such a category. Jerry Falwell has it that the
9-11 tragedies were due to our sins. Somebody else said Falwell
is living proof of a lack of chlorine in the gene pool, but I
digress.

I would be embarrassed to see some or my own thoughts, from just
5 or 10 years ago, in print for all to see now. That is how
fluid UFO perceptions are.

I like science fiction people, with certain reservations of
course, but wish they weren't so negative about UFO people in
general as if they were all the same.

They simply aren't. A precious few of them actually make some
sense.



Best wishes

- Laarry Hatch









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                           National UFO Conference

From: SMiles Lewis <smiles@elfis.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 10:16:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 12:01:53 -0400
Subject: National UFO Conference


Hello,

This is the last official announcement from Elfis.net regarding
the cancelled 38th National UFO Conference previously scheduled
for Sept. 14th thru 16th, 2001, in Austin, Texas. The National
UFO Conference is not being rescheduled in Austin Texas this
year or the next.

In order to maintain the continuous chain of 37 previous
National UFO Conferences, the moniker of "38th Annual" NUFOC has
been transferred to/merged with Pat Marcatillio's pre-scheduled
'Annual UFO/ET/Alien and Abduction Congress' in New Jersey,
October 6th and 7th.

(See below for details)

Because each year's conference usually occurs in a different
State, next year's NUFOC will not be held in Texas.

The above decisions were those of the National UFO Conference
committee; James Moseley is the permanent chairperson. For
details on next year's 39th annual National UFO Conference see
the Saucer Smear website here...

http://www.martiansgohome.com/smear/

or write to Supreme Commander Moseley directly at:

Saucer Smear
P.0. Box 1709
Key West, FL 33041

And...

The Elfis Network will soon play host to an ongoing series of
Anomaly Conferences with a broad focus ranging from UFOs and
Aliens to Parapsychology and Fortean Research. These conferences
will be held in Austin and throughout the State of Texas (and
eventually, perhaps, throughout the United States). Stay tuned
to the Elfis Network for details...

"The ELFIS NETWORK - Portal to Possible Paradigms"

http://www.elfis.net


Sincerely,

SMiles Lewis


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

     "NUFOC by Proxy in New Jersey"
                 October 6-7, 2001


For more information on the NUFOC merger with the Annual
UFO/ET/Alien and Abduction Congress please access the web page
linked below...

http://65.108.189.235/speakers.htm









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              Re: Terrestrial Tragedy Different Context At UFO

From: SMiles Lewis <smiles@elfis.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 10:26:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 12:06:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Terrestrial Tragedy Different Context At UFO


 >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 07:26:37 -0400
 >To: "- UFO UpDates Subscribers -":;
 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Terrestrial Tragedy Different Context At UFO Expo

 >http://www.sfweekly.com/issues/2001-09-26/nightcrawler.html

 >Alien Culture

 >Terrestrial Tragedy Has An Entirely Different Context At
 >The UFO Expo

 >By Silke Tudor


<snip>

I am looking for conference reviews for any UFO events held
immediately in the wake of the 9.11 attacks.

For example the UFO Congress, UFO Expo, etc.


Miles

-=-=-








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                Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 11:43:53 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 12:09:56 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... -


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 08:48:58 EDT
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:05:52 -0700 (PDT)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 01:36:27 +0100
 >>>From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

 >><snip>

 >>Author/physicist Gregory Benford has made the same argument.

 >Ah, but we can't believe what he says because he writes science
 >fiction. I know that he is a member of Science Fiction Writers of
 >America because I just looked his name up in the SFWA directory.

 >KRandle

Dear Kevin, Listers, Errol ...

Haven't had a drink to drop since I moved in, which is why my
mind wanders and my hands shake. Also why my eyes, not what they
used to be anyway, move aboot quickly, I forgot what they call
that. But it's what the researchers on List tell me happened
when I was but a pup. When I saw them little lights moving
rapidly to, fro, and here and there, dim bulbs they were too,
moving quite randomly within a circle of arc no more than a few
degrees... maybe. Well, I am seeing them again. Sunamongonya.
They're baaaaack!

But I undress. Digress, sorry.

Uh, the post you gave us... wuzzat a joke? I mean, you know,
Kevin, these days, it's hard to tell. Which is why the Ol' Morty
makes it so, so... I dunno, so "obvious."

So when you get a chance, let's get together. We'll do lunch.
Then you may divulge the veracity or otherwise, of your tomb.

Tome.


Jim









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                    Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:18:10 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:39:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - McGonagle


 >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 14:29:51 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy

<snip>

 >Currently my own thoughts are that a specific mailing List aimed
 >at this research might further be set up to aid the in depth
 >discussion of the subject of the AA, I suspect Errol would feel
 >the remit of UpDates would not carry to this specialised
 >discussion?. I personally think it would be imposing on the many
 >UpDates readers for the reasons I made in an earlier post, and
 >who also may not have such a deep and continuing interest in the
 >subject.

<snip>

Speaking personally, and in spite of Errol's willingness to host
such a discussion, I would prefer more discussions like this to
take place off-list, with the outcomes posted here. In my view
there is an advantage to setting up specialised lists, in that
technical debates can be specifically trawled at a future date,
without having to sift through unrelated material, and
uninterested parties can extend the life of the delete key on
their keyboards! The only proviso which I would set on that is
that the alternative list(s) should be made accessible to anyone
interested.

Just my tuppence (10 cents) worth.

Regards, Joe









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                Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 12:48:32 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:41:49 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... -


 >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 07:24:41 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...


 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 08:48:58 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:05:52 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>>Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 01:36:27 +0100
 >>>>From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

 >>><snip>

 >>>Author/physicist Gregory Benford has made the same argument.

 >>Ah, but we can't believe what he says because he writes science
 >>fiction. I know that he is a member of Science Fiction Writers of
 >>America because I just looked his name up in the SFWA directory.

 >>KRandle

 >Hello Kevin:

 >I try to dream up science fiction plots as a way to fall asleep
 >nights. Its kinda fun, and works well on weekdays when other
 >methods are off limits.

 >One plot has a human temporarily adopted as a sort of "pet" by
 >space aliens (intelligent robot types actually) who
 >underestimate his powers of recall.

 >His fractured memories include their evasive answers to sensible
 >questions, yet offer little clues to their motives, methods, and
 >means.

 >This is a harmless and pleasant way to speculate, without
 >putting ones reputation on the line; sort of like playing Cocoa
 >Futures with Monopoly Money.

 >Anyhow, I cannot completely discount the words of a SF writer,
 >and I'm sure that's not what you meant to imply.

 >The important thing is the presentation. If a Sci Fi writer
 >presents something as "fact", as Whitley Strieber did for
 >example, then his or her name is on the line like anybody else
 >writing "non-fiction".

 >Perhaps there should be a third section at the bookstore. A nice
 >big sign might say "Non-Fact". Now more than ever, there is a
 >real need for such a category. Jerry Falwell has it that the
 >9-11 tragedies were due to our sins. Somebody else said Falwell
 >is living proof of a lack of chlorine in the gene pool, but I
 >digress.

 >I would be embarrassed to see some or my own thoughts, from just
 >5 or 10 years ago, in print for all to see now. That is how
 >fluid UFO perceptions are.

 >I like science fiction people, with certain reservations of
 >course, but wish they weren't so negative about UFO people in
 >general as if they were all the same.

 >They simply aren't. A precious few of them actually make some
 >sense.


Dear Larry, Kevin, Listers and Errol;

Kevin was only joshing. I can tell because I am psychic. As for
your sleepytime operations, Larry, I suggest that you reconsider
lulling yourself to sleep by thinking of Sci-Fi plots. Ahem,
isn't there someone by that name somewhere? Plots?

(sigh)

Anyway, because you are the consumate gentleman, Larry. And
because you maintain an open mind and have never uttered a sour
effluvium... wait... you have never smelled bett... cheeses, I
am not connecting here. Must be withdrawal symptoms. Because you
are such a nice guy, I am going to send you something with which
you may play prior to sleepytime. No, not a substance. And
nothing which is illegal, immoral or fattening. Nothing to
inhale or even exhale. And nothing whatsoever to do with UFO's
or the Abduction phenom.

I shall send you a lifetime supply, gratis, of anatomically correct
Pia Zadora blowup dolls. I got this photo of her with the most
wonderful pouting lippies, and a fantastic chassis... and shock
absorbers you just wouldn't berieve. Believe.

Aw schucks. Weren't nuttin but a little thing.

Jim









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              Re: Terrestrial Tragedy Different Context At UFO

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 12:06:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:44:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Terrestrial Tragedy Different Context At UFO


 >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 10:26:25 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Terrestrial Tragedy Different Context At UFO Expo
 >From: SMiles Lewis <smiles@elfis.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 07:26:37 -0400
 >>To: "- UFO UpDates Subscribers -":;
 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Terrestrial Tragedy Different Context At UFO Expo

 >>http://www.sfweekly.com/issues/2001-09-26/nightcrawler.html

 >>Alien Culture

 >>Terrestrial Tragedy Has An Entirely Different Context At
 >>The UFO Expo

 >>By Silke Tudor

 ><snip>

 >I am looking for conference reviews for any UFO events held
 >immediately in the wake of the 9.11 attacks.

 >For example the UFO Congress, UFO Expo, etc.


Let us know what you find out. I would be very interested, for
one. I don't think it trivializes the disaster at all to say
that it would likely not have happened if a significant
disclosure event (from the non elected leadership) had occurred
before _it_ had. I thought this the day of the disaster. All
we're left with now is a reason for the bad guys to screw the
lid down a little tighter... and so how much longer before our
rational interests make us another newly defined enemy to be
demonized and then eliminated?

Denials regarding UFOs are at the root of _all_ our inauspicious
activity down here. We're like the shipwrecked kids in Goldman's
book... wallowing the limbic as a result of not thinking that
there are any *adults* watching. Think how embarrassing it's
going to be for everyone else when they find out that there _is_
a watching. Think how pissed off they're going to be to discover
that some of the kids knew the truth all along... It's a shame
and a rage that shan't improve with any age... that's certain.
Best do it now. Get that dentist's office visit behind us...


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.








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                Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... -

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 10:31:41 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:46:13 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... -


 >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 07:24:41 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

<snip>

 >Anyhow, I cannot completely discount the words of a SF writer,
 >and I'm sure that's not what you meant to imply.

I think the word you're looking for is "irony". Kevin was
mocking the notion that SF writers are excluded from genuine
scientific speculation. Kevin's written quite a few science
fiction novels under various names.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 816-561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
      http://mactonnies.com









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             Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 14:06:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:48:42 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Randle


 >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 07:24:41 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 08:48:58 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:05:52 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>>Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 01:36:27 +0100
 >>>>From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

 >>><snip>

 >>>Author/physicist Gregory Benford has made the same argument.

 >>Ah, but we can't believe what he says because he writes science
 >>fiction. I know that he is a member of Science Fiction Writers of
 >>America because I just looked his name up in the SFWA directory.

 >>KRandle

  - - -

 >Hello Kevin:

 >Anyhow, I cannot completely discount the words of a SF writer,
 >and I'm sure that's not what you meant to imply.

 >The important thing is the presentation. If a Sci Fi writer
 >presents something as "fact", as Whitley Strieber did for
 >example, then his or her name is on the line like anybody else
 >writing "non-fiction".

Oh, for God's sake, People -

Philip Klass was right, we have no sense of humor.

I could look Benford up in the SFWA Directory, which is sent
only to members of that organization because I am a member of
that organization. I have written 18 science fiction novels and
had just sold an additional four.

I made the comment because I have seen and heard people say
the same thing about me. I am the only researcher in the UFO
world whose day job disqualifies me from commentary because,
you know, I write science fiction. I have heard people at the
IUFOMRC in Roswell make the comment and I have heard researchers
in the UFO world make the comment and I have seen it mentioned
in email and on websites.

So please, for those of you with heads of concrete, it was a
joke. Get it? Benford writes science fiction. I write science
fiction. And I will look forward to all of you jumping to my
defense the next time someone suggests that I don't know the
difference between fact and fiction because I write science
fiction. I do know the difference and all my fiction books are
clearly labeled as such. Too bad there are others who can't make
that claim.

And, btw, its science fiction and not Sci Fi.

And, finally, about half of the members of SFWA have Ph.Ds.

KRandle,
member Science Fiction Writers of America...

and for those of you in the know, I know that they changed the
name to Science Fiction and Fastary Writers of America a number
of years ago, but I don't write fantasy (yet) and I find the
name to be a little redundant.








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                      Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Morris

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 19:53:45 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:51:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy - Morris

 >>Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 14:29:51 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy

 >>>From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy
 >>>Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:14:19 -0400

 >><snip>

 >>>But Neil, all this means is to avoid discussion here that's too
 >>>technical for anyone to follow. That's a general rule we all
 >>>ought to follow, no matter what we talk about. I'm speaking now
 >>>as someone who was offered the CDs, and got them. I was as
 >>>surprised as Serge is by the change in the rules. I can't see
 >>>why we shouldn't discuss what we've learned here.

 >>Greg,

 ><snip>

 >>Currently my own thoughts are that a specific mailing List aimed
 >>at this research might further be set up to aid the in depth
 >>discussion of the subject of the AA, I suspect Errol would feel
 >>the remit of UpDates would not carry to this specialised
 >>discussion?. I personally think it would be imposing on the many
 >>UpDates readers for the reasons I made in an earlier post, and
 >>who also may not have such a deep and continuing interest in the
 >>subject.

 >I have no objection to such discussion on UFO UpDates - as long
 >as participants are subscribed here, references to items at
 >Dave's site include the appropriate URLs, the 'Subject:' line
 >leads with 'AA: ' and said discussions don't devolve into
 >tiresome slanging matches. Subscribers who don't want to read
 >those posts always have the option of hitting their 'Delete'
 >keys.

 >Setting up another E-mail List _is_ an alternative - much like
 >better mouse traps and differently-shaped wheels.


Errol,

Many thanks for this, good idea to lead the subject line with an
AA prefix, it will allow those not interested to hit the Del
key.

I'll forward this on to Dave and Ed just in case they've missed
it.


Thanks again,

Neil.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 29

               CCCRN News: Midale, Saskatchewan Field Reports

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 20:26:40 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:59:13 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Midale, Saskatchewan Field Reports


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

September 29, 2001

_____________________________


FIELD REPORTS - MIDALE, SASKATCHEWAN
August 27 - September 1, 2001


Following are the field reports from our investigations of the
seven formations at Midale, Saskatchewan. They are included
together here in this one e-mail for convenience; they will also
be posted separately for each formation report on the web site.
Survey diagrams and additional photos will be available soon, as
well as the field report, diagrams and additional photos for
Drayton Valley, Alberta.

In terms of associated anomalies, of particular interest is the
odd circular 'blurred or fogged out area' or distortion which
can be seen in two of the aerial photos I took over the Midale
#5 formation, and also in the aerial video footage taken at the
same time, in which it can be seen moving across the screen (see
description below). Nothing seen visually at the time. Other odd
small white objects or lights can be seen in a number of the
ground photos, perhaps dust or something else?

Also:

There is a report of yet three more formations about 80 miles
northeast of Midale, in wheat, found September 26. Whether this
is actually three circles in one formation or three separate
formations is not known at this point. Further details pending
in the next day or two.

There is also now confirmation that the Red Deer formation was
first seen on September 2, by an assistant flying with a search
and rescue team at the time. As the farmer had previously stated
that the field was empty September 1 when they were spraying,
this narrows down the time frame considerably as to when the
formation was made.


MIDALE, SASKATCHEWAN #1
August 27, 2001

Field Report - Paul Anderson, CCCRN

Assistant Debbie Warren and I had just finished our
investigation of the two circle formation at DraytonValley,
Alberta, and were staying in Edmonton with Judy Arndt (Crop
Circle Quest and CCCRN field research assistant) and her husband
Mike, when I received a message from our pilot assistant John
Erickson in Estevan, Saskatchewan of three new formations that
had just appeared there, again near Midale, a few miles away in
southeast Saskatchewan. They were in the same fields as
formations from 1999. We set out the next morning for another
long day's drive to Midale. We had been going to go to the
canola formation at Dauphin, Manitoba next, but decided that
these new formations were more important for our studies at the
time as they were new and also somewhat more complex from the
descriptions given. We were fortunate to be able to see these
formations within a couple days or so after their creation. The
four that followed a few days later, we were able to document
within hours.

The first formation in the Midale area we investigated was a
classic large circle with two concentric rings around it, in
wheat. Spotted by John Erickson on August 27, and in the same
field as a formation in 1999, owned by farmer Dayle Martinson.
Debbie and I met John in Estevan, who took us to the location. A
couple of our other CCCRN assistants from the area, Robert
Leslie and Sonia Peterson, were already there, along with some
neighbouring farmers. They had already walked into the
formation, which was a relatively short distance from the dirt
road, leaving very noticeable pathways in doing so. We followed
the same tracks, to avoid making more than necessary. They did
tell us however that no entry pathways were seen at all when the
formation was first found, which is something we would verify
ourselves with some of the other formations later. We later
obtained aerial video and photographs of the formation.

The centre circle was approximately 14.5 meters (48 feet)
diameter, with the two rings encircling it about 1.2 meters (4
feet) wide each and a total diameter of about 28 meters (92
feet), with some variability noted. The lay of the crop inside
the formation was relatively smooth and uniform, although not
quite as flat to the ground as in 1999. Centre circle was
counterclockwise, the first ring clockwise, then the outermost
ring counterclockwise again. No holes or other obvious
disturbance to the ground found in the centre of the circle.
Stalks were bent at or very close to the ground, with little if
any other damage. Larger stones and rocks inside both the circle
and rings (common in the field) showed no signs of having been
disturbed, scraped or pushed over, etc. as might be expected
from mechanical flattening (ie. boards, planks). One stuck up
several inches from the ground, yet looked completely
undisturbed. The wheat stalks were flattened both over top of
and around the stones. Debbie Warren and Sonia Peterson assisted
with survey measurements.

No stretched or ruptured nodes, compass or other ground
anomalies found. However, I repeatedly had problems with my
camera (standard 35 mm) while circling this and the other Midale
formations in John Erickson's plane, with the camera refusing to
take the picture and advance properly to the next shot whenever
I tried using the zoom. Also, a CTV News crew who were later
taping an interview with us inside this formation experienced a
sudden battery failure in their video camera (such effects being
common in many formations).


MIDALE, SASKATCHEWAN #2
August 27, 2001

Field Report - Paul Anderson, CCCRN

The second formation in the Midale area was in a field owned by
farmer Randy Johner, also again a field that hosted a formation
in 1999, and not far from Midale #1. This one was also spotted
by John Erickson on August 27, and also reported by Randy. This
was also basically a circle with two surrounding rings, in
wheat,although in this case the rings were broken into offset
segments, the inner ring divided into two parts, the outer ring
divided into four. There was also a smaller satellite circle a
short distance away, and tangent to the edge of the dirt road.
The main formation was set further into the field, again with no
initial entry pathways seen, which this time we saw ourselves,
both on the ground and later from the air. We flew over this
formation with John before we entered it on the ground, to
verify this, with photographs and video.

The centre circle was about 12.5 meters (41 feet) diameter,
varying slightly from circular by a few inches. Total diameter
approximately 24.5 meters (80 feet). Crop lay was fairly uniform
and flat to the ground, counterclockwise in both the circle and
the ring segments. Lay was similar in the satellite circle,
about 6.4 meters (21 feet) diameter, also counterclockwise.
Stalks were bent at or very close to the ground, with little if
any other damage. No holes or other obvious disturbance to the
ground found in the centre of the circle. Sonia Peterson
assisted with survey measurements.

No stretched or ruptured nodes, compass or other ground
anomalies found. However, I repeatedly had problems with my
camera (standard 35 mm) while circling this and the other Midale
formations in John Erickson's plane, with the camera refusing to
take the picture and advance properly to the next shot whenever
I tried using the zoom.


MIDALE, SASKATCHEWAN #3
August 27, 2001

Field Report - Paul Anderson, CCCRN

The third Midale formation was a rather unusual looking
combination of flattened and standing half circles, with a
smaller flattened circle inside the standing section, in wheat.
Some people referred to this one as a 'mushroom'. Also spotted
on August 27 by John Erickson, and again in a field owned by
farmer Randy Johner. And yet again, this was a field that
previously had a formation in 1999. As with Midale #2, we saw no
initial entry pathways going into the formation; we also flew
over this one to verify this for ourselves and document it,
before we entered it on the ground. The field is the next one
down from Midale #2, on the other side of the dirt road.

The formation was approximately 15 meters (50 feet) in diameter.
Crop lay was primarily clockwise except for a section in the
flattened half circle which was counterclockwise, as was the
smaller circle inside the standing section. Overall, the lay was
more complex in this formation than in Midale #1 and 2, with a
band of crop about 1.2 meters (4 feet) wide which continued to
run clockwise around the inside edge of the flattened half
circle part of the formation, next to the counterclockwise
portion. In the centre of this half circle, where the two
different flows met, the wheat formed a sort of central 'spine',
arranged in overlapping bunches of stalks up to five or six
layers deep, crossing each other in 'X' type patterns. Stalks
were bent at or very close to the ground, with little if any
other damage. No holes or other obvious disturbance to the
ground found in the centre of the small circle or where the
centre would be of the larger circle halves. Debbie Warren
assisted with survey measurements.

No stretched or ruptured nodes, compass or other ground
anomalies found. However, I repeatedly had problems with my
camera (standard 35 mm) while circling this and the other Midale
formations in John Erickson's plane, with the camera refusing to
take the picture and advance properly to the next shot whenever
I tried using the zoom.


MIDALE, SASKATCHEWAN #4
August 30, 2001

Field Report - Paul Anderson, CCCRN

The fourth formation was found a couple days later, on August
30, in the same field as Midale #2, but several hundred feet
away. A sort of 'backwards 7' for lack of a better description,
in wheat. Again spotted by John Erickson while flying over the
previous three formations in the area. Was not there the day
before. This was the only Midale formation that had an unknown
track leading to it when first found. Whether this was from
someone else visiting it before us, or from hoaxers, we may
never know. A smaller companion piece was several feet away from
the main formation. Interestingly, there was no track between
the two sections, only from the larger one to the dirt road.

Main piece was approximately 21 meters (69 feet) long along main
axis, the smaller companion about 5.5 meters (18 feet). Main
part of the larger pattern was gently curved, with a straight
end piece attached (the top bar in the '7'), with crop flattened
right to left in the curved section. In the end piece however,
the crop showed a similar kind of elaborate layering as seen in
Midale #3, with bunches of wheat crossing each other in similar
kinds of 'X' patterns down its whole length, about 8.5 meters
(28 feet). Crop inside the smaller companion piece was flattened
right to left only. Stalks were bent at or very close to the
ground, with little if any other damage. Debbie Warren assisted
with survey measurements.

No stretched or ruptured nodes, compass or other ground
anomalies found. However, I repeatedly had problems with my
camera (standard 35 mm) while circling this and the other Midale
formations in John Erickson's plane, with the camera refusing to
take the picture and advance properly to the next shot whenever
I tried using the zoom.


MIDALE, SASKATCHEWAN #5
September 1, 2001

Field Report - Paul Anderson, CCCRN

The fifth Midale formation was again basically a circle/ring
pattern, but with other additional standing shapes inside it, in
wheat. Spotted by John Erickson and a news crew from Global TV
on September 1 while flying that morning, along with the other
two new formations, Midale #6 and #7. A smaller satellite circle
was nearby. Formation had not been there the previous day, as
John stated he had flown over the very same fields, which were
then still empty. Having just finished our investigations of the
first four formations, we immediately set off to see these new
ones. This one was in a field that had not had any formations in
it before, as far as we know, owned by farmer Armaud Wediene,
although there had been formations before in the nearby area. No
initial entry tracks seen again, as with the first three
formations. In this case, we weren't able to fly over it until
later that afternoon, so we entered the formation for an initial
inspection. Our own entry pathways are clearly visible in the
aerial photos and video that we took that afternoon, but no
others. An oil pumping station is nearby, next to the field, and
within a couple hundred feet or so of the formation itself.
There is also an electrical tower on either side of the
formation.

About 23 meters (78 feet) in diameter, the crop lay in this
formation was messier than in the previous ones we had visited.
While generally counterclockwise, the lay was rather haphazard,
not as smooth and flowing. Standing shapes of crop were in both
the centre circle and the surrounding ring, but were difficult
to define from the ground, until we could get an aerial view
later. These turned out to be four circular standing circles in
the ring, about 1.2 to 1.5 meters (4 to 5 feet) across each, and
other, somewhat larger wedge shaped standing pieces inside the
centre circle. Some stalks in the surrounding flattened area
were sort of wrapped around the standing sections. The formation
could be generally described as a celtic cross pattern, with
additional pieces, although the overall geometry, while
impressive, was kind of odd looking. The lay in the smaller
satellite circle, 3.65 meters (12 feet) diameter, was much
smoother and uniform in appearance, also counterclockwise.
Stalks were bent at or very close to the ground, with little if
any other damage. No holes or other obvious disturbance to the
ground found in the centres of the circles. Robert Leslie
assisted with survey measurements.

No stretched or ruptured nodes, compass or other ground
anomalies found. However, I repeatedly had problems with my
camera (standard 35 mm) while circling this and the other Midale
formations in John Erickson's plane, with the camera refusing to
take the picture and advance properly to the next shot whenever
I tried using the zoom. Also, a couple of my aerial photos of
this formation show an unusual circular 'blurred or fogged out
area' next to the pattern. The video footage, taken over the
same formation at the same time, shows the same or similar
looking 'patch' moving across the screen from upper right to
lower left for about two or three seconds then is gone. It is
densest in the main part of it, then more diffuse at the edges.
I haven't seen this in any of the other video or photos we took.
It is similar, but more opaque looking, to the photos taken by
Nick Nicholson in the UK in 1990 (see page123 of Linda Moulton
Howe's newest book, 'Mysterious Lights and Crop Circles'). The
photos and video were taken through two different windows on the
same side of the plane. Nothing seen visually at the time.
Similar blurs and other anomalies have been found by many people
over the years taking pictures in and over formations.


MIDALE, SASKATCHEWAN #6
September 1, 2001

Field Report - Paul Anderson, CCCRN

The sixth Midale formation was probably the best in terms of
ground construction and detail. Also somewhat more elaborate
than the usual predominately circle/ring type patterns seen on
the prairies, it consisted of three circles arranged in an
equilateral triangle configuration, with a wide band of
flattened crop flowing and looping around them, creating a
standing partial ring around each circle, and smaller triangular
standing pieces in the centre of the formation, in wheat.
Described as a 'triplet' or 'three leaf clover'. Spotted by John
Erickson and a news crew from Global TV on September 1 while
flying that morning, along with the other two new formations,
Midale #5 and #7. Formation had not been there the previous day,
as John stated he had flown over the very same fields, which
were then still empty. This one was also in a field that had not
had any formations in it before, as far as we know, although the
field is owned by farmer Dayle Martinson, as with Midale #1, and
close again to where other formations have been found before. No
entry tracks seen again, as with the others. In this case again,
we weren't able to fly over it until later that afternoon, so we
entered the formation for an initial inspection. Our own entry
pathways are again visible in the aerial photos and video that
we took that afternoon, but no others. This formation was set
further into the field than the others, at least a couple
hundred feet.

Each circle was approximately 7 meters (23 feet) diameter, with
an overall diameter of about 25 meters (82 feet). Crop lay was
flatter and smoother than in the other Midale formations,
flowing over and under itself in different spots in the band,
creating a sort of visual 'knotted' effect. Lay was
counterclockwise in two of the circles and clockwise in the
third. The surrounding band followed the same direction around
each circle. It was interesting to note that the wheat in this
field appeared to be more severely affected by the drought, the
plants being more stunted in growth, and weeds everywhere
growing amongst the crop, which gave the formation an odd kind
of textured appearance. Yet the lay was superior to the
formations in other healthier fields. No holes or other obvious
disturbance to the ground found in the centres of the circles.
Stalks were bent at or very close to the ground, with little if
any other damage. In a few spots, some of the weeds had small
blue flowers which appeared to be untouched. Debbie Warren
assisted with survey measurements.

No stretched or ruptured nodes, compass or other ground
anomalies found. However, I repeatedly had problems with my
camera (standard 35 mm) while circling this and the other Midale
formations in John Erickson's plane, with the camera refusing to
take the picture and advance properly to the next shot whenever
I tried using the zoom.


MIDALE, SASKATCHEWAN #7
September 1, 2001

Field Report - Paul Anderson, CCCRN

The seventh Midale formation was a simpler pattern again, a
small circle surrounded by a larger thin ring, in wheat. Spotted
by John Erickson and a news crew from Global TV on September 1
while flying that morning, along with the other two new
formations, Midale #5 and #6. Formation had not been there the
previous day, as John stated he had flown over the very same
fields, which were then still empty. This one was also in a
field that had not had any formations in it before, as far as we
know, but again in the same general area as previous formations.
This formation however had been combined by the farmer, but was
still clearly visible from the air. It was close to what
appeared to be a man-made pond or water trough, and within a few
hundred feet of the farm house. This is the only Midale
formation we didn't enter as we had trouble locating it on the
ground before we had to head back home in BC. It appeared to be
in the same size range as the others.

I repeatedly had problems with my camera (standard 35 mm) while
circling this and the other Midale formations in John Erickson's
plane, with the camera refusing to take the picture and advance
properly to the next shot whenever I tried using the zoom.


____________________________


The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which investigates the crop circle
phenomenon and other possibly related phenomena in Canada,
creating a liason between researchers, farmers, the public, the
media and scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma

CCCRN News is the e-news service of CCCRN, providing the
latest news, reports and updates, sent free to your e-mail.

To subscribe to CCCRN News, send a blank e-mail to:
cccrnnews-subscribe@topica.com

To unsubscribe from CCCRN News, send a blank e-mail to:
cccrnnews-unsubscribe@topica.com

CCCRN News Archive:
http://www.topica.com/lists/cccrnnews/read


CANADIAN CROP CIRCLE RESEARCH NETWORK

Main Office:
202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel/Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

Provincial Branches:

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/contacts.html


Circle Phenomena in Canada 2001:

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/circlescanada01.html


Fields of Dreams Webcast Radio Show:

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/fieldsofdreams.html


� Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2001








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 29

             Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <Steve@Konsulting.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:02:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 18:01:27 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Kaeser


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 08:48:58 EDT
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >>Author/physicist Gregory Benford has made the same argument.

 >Ah, but we can't believe what he says because he writes
 >science fiction. I know that he is a member of Science
 >Fiction Writers of America because I just looked his name up
 >in the SFWA directory.

 >KRandle

I think we still have some respect for Arthur C. Clarke, who is
both an author and future theorist. Kevin, I assume that your
comment was a tad sarcastic.

Benford is a good writer. One can do a search on Amazon and find
that they list 91 items that he has written that are currently
available. One of the reasons that his work is so good is the
result of his scientific background.


Steve

[who used to read a lot of Sci-Fi when he had time]






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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 29

                Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:22:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 18:30:50 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... -


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 14:06:43 EDT
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 07:24:41 -0700
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

 >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 08:48:58 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:05:52 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>>>Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 01:36:27 +0100
 >>>>>From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

 >>>><snip>

 >>>>Author/physicist Gregory Benford has made the same argument.

 >>>Ah, but we can't believe what he says because he writes science
 >>>fiction. I know that he is a member of Science Fiction Writers of
 >>>America because I just looked his name up in the SFWA directory.

 >>Hello Kevin:

 >>Anyhow, I cannot completely discount the words of a SF writer,
 >>and I'm sure that's not what you meant to imply.

 >>The important thing is the presentation. If a Sci Fi writer
 >>presents something as "fact", as Whitley Strieber did for
 >>example, then his or her name is on the line like anybody else
 >>writing "non-fiction".

 >Oh, for God's sake, People -

 >Philip Klass was right, we have no sense of humor.

<snip>

Philip Klass' idea of humor is getting needlessly crude in front
of Greg Sandow and his girlfriend, so he's not one to comment on
it one way or the other, besides... sex and UFOs ain't funny,
Magee. <g>.



Lehmberg@snowhill.com









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 30

                   Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 20:22:03 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 11:06:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Randle


Good Evening, List, all -

I hadn't really planned to say anything about this, but what the hell,
it's Saturday and the football game is over.

 >Source: Irondequoit Post, Rochester, N.Y.

 >http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=2421069&BRD=1891&PAG=461&dep>t_id=12
1573&rfi=6


 >Friday 28 September, 2001


 >Aliens Among Us

 >Christine C. Fien/Messenger Post Staff
 >September 27, 2001


 >SUNY Brockport Professor Discusses The Alien Abduction Experience

 >Nearly one million Americans say they've had an alien abduction
 >experience.

So, where did this number come from? Did the writer make it up,
did Dr. Appelle, or have we now gotten away from the 5 million
figure that came out of the first roper Poll... Yes, I know the
second, as posted on the NIDS website, cut everything in about
half.


 >Hypnosis can create false memories, Appelle said, and abductees
 >don't go to a hypnotist out of the blue. They go because they
 >have "missing time" - sometimes hours they can't account for -
 >or suspect they may have been abducted.

Or they have had vivid dreams and friends suggest they see
someone, or they have experienced sleep paralysis and aren't
sure what happened to them and friends suggest they see
someone... Oh, yes, sleep paralysis doesn't count...

 >While hypnosis may embellish the story, the core experience is
 >still there, Appelle said.

And in some cases there is no core story as evidenced by those
claiming horrific Vietnam combat and which they told under
hypnosis with all the proper emotion, only to have their stories
exposed as untrue.

 >Sleep-paralysis as an explanation to debunk abduction accounts
 >also falls short, he said. During an occurrence of
 >sleep-paralysis, people wake up feeling like they can't move,
 >can't speak, and sometimes sense a disturbing presence in the
 >room. The problem is, Appelle said, that this theory doesn't
 >explain highway abductions. Sleep-paralysis experiences also
 >tend to be very vague, while accounts of alien abductions are
 >rich in detail, he said.

And no one said that sleep paralysis explains all cases of alien
abduction, only that it explains some. Couple that to a
hypnotist who is poorly trained, and the rich detail can be
found.

Some sleep paralysis experiences are quite detailed. I'm
confused as to why Dr. Appelle would say something like this,
unless the writer got part of the quote wrong.


 >Appelle said he is "open-minded" on the subject of abductions.

 >"I don't, like some people, think that it is inherently
 >impossible, so I'm willing to entertain the idea that these
 >experiences are exactly what they seem to be," he said. "It's a
 >phenomena that does not yet have a documented explanation."

Well, he's correct here. There is no documented explanation. But
then, we shouldn't reject part of the solution because it
doesn't cover every case. Kind of like suggesting that aircraft
haven't been misidentified as a UFO because some were really
weather balloons. Like all aspects of the UFO phenomena, I don't
think there is a single explanation that covers everything.

And, I've never understood why we all say that 90% of the UFO
sightings are explained in the mundane, but all of the
abductions must be alien. Couldn't it be that some are, in fact,
explanable in terrestrial terms? Not all, but some?


KRandle








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                Re: Bubbling Seas Can Sink Ships - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 04:45:03 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 11:14:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Bubbling Seas Can Sink Ships - Goldstein


 >Source: NewScientist

 >http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991350

Hello fellow Listerions,

I don't mean to mock these important findings but I came to the
same conclusion many years ago. Maybe I was drawn into
scientific experimentation as a child in the 1950s by the
inspiration of my mentor, "Mr. Wizard" on TV. Seeing the post
below regarding bubbling left me feeling unusually weird and
frisky tonight. I will slip on my ass in one of the lower
recesses of my childhood memories. That was a low grade of humor
that one may someday see in the future film "American Pie 3".


 >Bubbling seas can sink ships

 >19:00 26 September 01
 >Johanna Marchant

 >Lab tests have proved that bubbles can sink floating objects.
 >The findings add weight to suggestions that methane bubbles
 >escaping from methane reserves in the seabed might have been to
 >blame for vessels disappearing in the Bermuda Triangle and the
 >North Sea.

As a kid I found the above out in my home laboratory, the
bathtub. It was part of my study of UFOs - Unusual Flatulent
Objects.

It must have been one Thanksgiving when, in the water of the
bathtubub after dinner, I discovered that I was a mighty methane
generator. It would emanate from me in frequent and uniformly
large bubbles that would float up to the surface and be released
to jump out of that open air into the free atmosphere. That
phenomenon caused me to experiment to further discover its
properties.

I experimented with my floating rubber ducky and with my armada
of floating toy boats of various sizes. Do you remember the World
War II secrecy motto that "loose lips sink ships"? The other end
of my body proved that statement to be correct. Through trial and
error I discovered that if a bubble covered at least 80% of the
volume of water that displaced the object would sink. Picture a 3'
long Titanic going down. All aboard would have been drowned. My
ducky never quacked again.

 >The Greek mathematician Archimedes realised that for something
 >to float, the density of the liquid has to be greater than the
 >density of the object. So a simple argument is that if you mix
 >enough bubbles into a liquid to lower its average density, an
 >object floating on its surface should sink. People have
 >suggested that this process is behind the mysterious demise of
 >many ships that sank for no obvious reason.

Most likely discovered in the public baths of Athens. I hope old
Archimedes never dropped the Grecian soap as it could have
ruined his experiment.

 >However, Bruce Denardo at the Naval Postgraduate School in
 >Monterey, California, was sceptical. He points out that rising
 >bubbles often carry currents of water up with them, exerting an
 >upwards force on the floating object. For all but the most
 >violent bubbles, this upward drag might be enough to keep an
 >object afloat.

 >Bubbling under

 >Denardo and his colleagues decided to test the theory. They
 >filled a four-litre glass beaker with water, then fed in air at
 >the bottom at varying speeds. Then they dropped in steel balls
 >filled with varying amounts of water and air to see how easily
 >they would sink. If, in the absence of rising bubbles, the ball
 >only just floated on the surface, switching on the bubbles made
 >it sink.

 >"We were surprised that the theory was confirmed," says Denardo.
 >"This is just what one might naively expect, but we expected
 >that an upward drag would occur."

 >Even so, the case isn't closed, Denardo says. Because the
 >experiment was carried out in a closed container, he thinks
 >upward currents might not have had room to form. In the open
 >sea, upwellings would form more easily in the region of the
 >bubbles, while the water would flow downwards again a short
 >distance away.

 >Secret weapon

 >Initially this would help a boat to stay afloat. But if the
 >vessel were swept slightly to one side, it might just hit the
 >down currents and sink.

 >Denardo concludes that we can't rule out the methane theory
 >for ships lost in the Bermuda Triangle. "If a phenomenon can be
 >made to occur in a lab, it probably occurs somewhere in the
 >natural universe," he says.

Brad Steiger, move over and watch out for my new blockbuster
book.

The Day the Earth Farted - The Bermuda Triangle

I cover mysterious ship sinkings and illuminate why aircraft caught
in methane bubbles fall out of the air. Several WWII Hellcat Navy
aircraft once disappeared together on an unusually flatulent day.
Have you always wondered if either the Atlantean fish or undersea
UFOs cause this to happen?

 >If bubbles can indeed sink ships, the military might want to use
 >them as a weapon. Michael Stumborg, a researcher at the US
 >NavalWar College in Rhode Island, has proposed building "buoyancy
 >bombs" that would collect and release bubbles.

 >An underwater vehicle could extract methane from a deposit in
 >the seabed, then transport it to a point underneath a target
 >ship. "The release of the methane will reduce the buoyancy of
 >the ship and could in principle sink it," says Denardo.

I strongly recommend that The U.S. Naval Research Laboratory try
to repeat excperiments in their own bathtubs. If previous
findings are confirmed, then I suggest that a proposal be
submitted to the Office of Naval Research to conduct full scale
black budget experiments on surplus ships. This experiment would
not fall within the protocols of classic bubble theory but would
demonstrate a new potential as an invisible weapon. If methane
could be rapidly and effectively generated and released it would
provide the additional insurance of Biowarfare.

Listerions, if you attempt the preliminary research in your home
bathtubs please follow my instructions in the first paragraph.
Please do not post your findings on this list. I will soon
create a separate list on which we can tabulate our results.

 >Journal reference: American Journal of Physics (vol 69, p 1064)

 >19:00 26 September 01

Further research awaits. Since methane bubbles from farm animals
are a major source of air pollution that may lead to global
warming, the new list will also excplore theories of how this
can be reduced. Perhaps they could be fitted with some type of
inflatable diapers that could be filled, removed and collected
by the Navy to be used to inflate a new generation of wartime
blimps. All suggestions will be welcome on my new list.


Thanks,

Josh












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   Sep > Sep 30

                       EW - Photos of Snowy Dirtballs

From: Kurt Jonach <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 20:42:36 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 11:17:45 -0400
Subject: EW - Photos of Snowy Dirtballs


------------------------------------------------------------

The Electric Warrior : Front Page September 30, 2001
http://www.electricwarrior.com/

------------------------------------------------------------
� PHOTOS OF SNOWY DIRTBALLS
NASA photographs of comet Borrelly challenge conventional wisdom

science news
by The Electric Warrior

http://www.electricwarrior.com/img/Borrelly5.jpg

In a high risk encounter with the unknown, NASA rocket
scientists sent the Deep Space 1 spacecraft into the core of
comet Borrelly, to emerge with the best ever images of a
cometary nucleus.

The paradigm-busting photos released a few days later challenged
at least one common supposition about comets:

Space.com reported, "The new observations support other recent
studies indicating that comets may not contain as much water as
was once thought -- an assumption that had earned them the name
'dirty snowballs'."

Until now, comets were thought to be pristine samples of ice and
dust, unchanged since the formation of the solar system. But a
theory by Tom Van Flandern predicts that comets are mostly rock,
not much different than asteroids.

FACETS' Founder, David Jinks told The Electric Warrior that if
Van Flandern's model is right, then comets are more like "snowy
dirtballs."

A FIERY COMA

Comets aren't really flaming chunks of rock, leaving a blazing
trail behind them. That description basically fits meteorites,
which burn up as they enter the Earth's atmosphere.

A cometary nucleus is surrounded by huge clouds of gas and dust,
which are ejected by heated jets as the comet approaches the
Sun. Some of these jets are visible in the NASA photos.

A comet's tail is formed when the magnetically charged solar
wind pushes back the ejected material, as the rest of the comet
moves on. Borrelly's nucleus is about the size of a mountain;
its titanic coma thought to be as large as Earth.

DS1, essentially a proof of concept mission for futuristic
technologies, was never designed to explore comets. Before the
spacecraft made its unshielded descent, deep into Borrelly's
core, nobody knew whether it would be damaged by thick clouds of
dust and cometary debris.

WE ARE STARDUST

Most of what science has said about comets is based on studies
of one named Halley, which approaches Earth about once every 80
years.

DS1's project scientist Robert Nelson says, "That situation has
now changed." A close encounter with another comet has literally
doubled our knowledge overnight.

Most of the information gathered by NASA awaits further
analysis. Nelson told Space.com that comets are a gateway to the
formation of the solar system, and our best view of human
origins.

The last time Halley returned in 1985, Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan
laid out a theory of comets as mementos of creation. "When we
study the comets, we study our own beginnings," they wrote in
their book, 'Comet'.

Sagan and Druyan described a scenario in which both comets and
planets are formed of interstellar material. The only difference
is that comets have remained mostly unchanged, since the
beginning of the solar system.

ON THE ORIGIN OF THE SPECIOUS

The Exploded Planet Hypothesis (EPH) put forth by Tom Van
Flandern provides an alternate model for the origin of comets
and asteroids. As described by David Jinks, "Among the most
important predictions of the EPH is the idea that comets and
asteroids are essentially the same thing."

"Since the EPH predicts that cometary surfaces are mostly rocky,
rather than icy," says Jinks, "it is no surprise that recent
images of comet Borrelly reveal an asteroid-like body, a fact
which prompted JPL scientist Don Yeomans to eschew the standard
moniker 'dirty snowball' for the more accurate 'icy dirtball'".

This is just what Van Flandern predicted almost ten years ago in
his book 'Dark Matter, Missing Planets & New Comets': "A comet
fly-by mission will reveal that densities of cometary nuclei are
consistent with rock, showing that comets are not exclusively
frozen volatiles."

In case you missed it, the EPH theory plays an important part in
Van Flandern's controversial opinions about the Face on Mars An
untold number of independent Mars anomaly researches believe the
enigmatic Martian mesa may also tell us something about our own
origins.

Nine months into what's shaping up to be The Year We Didn't Make
Contact, electric warriors can take comfort in the fact that
solid scientific investigation continues challenge assumptions,
and inspire open-minded scientific inquiry.

------------------------------------------------------------
RELATED RESOURCES

Is there life on Mars?

Early in September, a team of Hungarian scientists said they
found evidence of living organisms, in photos taken by NASA's
Mars Global Surveyor spacecraft.

The European Space Agency supports further investigation. NASA
recently dismissed the idea as erroneous. Researchers from the
online Mars community have their own thoughts on the matter.

20-Sep-01 NASA's "Search for Life" a Charade
http://mactonnies.com/imperative23.html

(The Cydonian Imperative) - NASA employees are unanimous that
the discovery of Martian life would be excellent for NASA's
planetary science budget. But after examining NASA's history of
conscientiously dodging the life on Mars inquiry, one wonders
just how "desirable" the discovery of life on Mars actually is
...NASA and JPL have simply capitalized on the implications of
the idea to promote an endless convoy of geological survey
craft. And so the so-called "search for life" goes on. And on.

27-Sep-01 JPL scientist refutes claims of life on Mars
http://mactonnies.com/imperative23.html

(Cydonia Mailing List) - Fortunately, while people associated
with the MGS mission like Titus engage in shrill and
disingenuous attacks on other scientists with different points
of view, the European Space Agency seems to be taking the
rational approach one would expect from a scientific
organization. They aren't proclaiming that the Hungarians have
demonstrated "proof" of life on Mars; they've merely said the
evidence and arguments presented for life appear interesting
enough to deserve further investigation.

------------------------------------------------------------
THE ELECTRIC WARRIOR
September 30, 2001
Silicon Valley, CA
http://www.electricwarrior.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Web developers, the URL address for this content is:
http://www.electricwarrior.com/expose/Expose006.htm

Permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this
article or any portion thereof, provided The Electric
Warrior is cited as the source.

Images are created exclusively for the Electric Warrior
Website. They can be downloaded and cached for individual
use, but may not be reproduced or used in any other context
without permission. (Except as noted).

eWarrior@electricwarrior.com








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Sep > Sep 30

                Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... -

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 21:00:44 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 11:19:40 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... -


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 14:06:43 EDT
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >So please, for those of you with heads of concrete, it was a
 >joke. Get it? Benford writes science fiction. I  write science
 >fiction. And I will look forward to all of you jumping to my
 >defense the next time someone suggests that I don't know the
 >difference between fact and fiction because I write science
 >fiction. I do know the difference and all my fiction books are
 >clearly labeled as such. Too bad there are others who can't make
 >that claim.

Well said, Kevin. A _lot_ of highly regarded scientists have
used SF as an intellectual vehicle. Fred Hoyle, Arthur C.
Clarke, Rudy Rucker, Gregory Benford...those are just a very
few.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 816-561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
      http://mactonnies.com









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             Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 00:26:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 11:22:28 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Stacy


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 14:06:43 EDT
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >KRandle,
 >member Science Fiction Writers of America...

 >and for those of you in the know, I know that they changed the
 >name to Science Fiction and Fastary Writers of America a number
 >of years ago, but I don't write fantasy (yet) and I find the
 >name to be a little redundant.

Kevin,

Fer sure, it's that Fastary stuff you gotta watch out for!

Dennis










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             Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Jones

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 08:58:40 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 11:24:54 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... -  Jones


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 14:06:43 EDT
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

Good Morning Kevin, Listeroon's

 >>Ah, but we can't believe what he says because he writes science
 >>fiction. I know that he is a member of Science Fiction Writers of
 >>America because I just looked his name up in the SFWA directory.

 >Oh, for God's sake, People -

 >Philip Klass was right, we have no sense of humor.

I must be in a minority here, because I could see straight away
that Kevin was being mildly sarcastic and lampooning others
here.

I have written many a UFO article, some have even been
published. I have also written a few Sci-Fi (sorry Kevin we
Brits prefer that term) stories which have never been published.

My fiance and I are attending the annual World Sci-Fi Convention
next year in San Jose. Where she will get to meet Larry Niven,
one of the worlds most famous Sci-Fi writers, and for whom she
runs the quasi official website www.larryniven.org free of
charge.

Larry's writing partner is often Jerry Pournelle who also has a
Phd.

I hope to meet Tad Williams myself as he is my favourite Fantasy
writer at the moment, the "Otherland" series which I am reading
at the moment is brilliant and I would recommend it to anyone
for a good read.

I am hoping he can give me tips on how to write my fantasy book
which I have been working on for over ten years now, it's all
about "Tedric", whoa it's even my email address <g>

What I am trying to demonstrate here, is that some of us have a
life outside of Ufology, as does Kevin.

--

    In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                         Sean Jones
               http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/









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                     THE WATCHDOG (e-update) - 09-30-01

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 08:06:42 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 11:29:47 -0400
Subject: THE WATCHDOG (e-update) - 09-30-01


UFOWATCHDOG.COM
"Don't Trip On Your Open Mind"
http://www.ufowatchdog.com

UPDATED: Shameless Sellers Trying To Turn Tragedy Into Cash

Numerous scams turned up attempting to capitalize on the murders
of those in NYC and at the Pentagon. UFOlogy was not immune from
the maggots out there trying to get attention or soak up the
blood money... http://www.ufowatchdog.com/shameless.html

NEWS http://www.ufowatchdog.com/news.html


~ Anomalous Photos In Crop Formations
~ Terrestrial Tragedy Has An Entirely Different Context At The
   UFO Expo
~ No Kidding This Time...My Flying Saucer Photo Is Genuine
~ Aliens Among Us
~ Norwegian Police Search For 'Silent Helicopter' UFO


SPECIAL INVESTIGATION: Reed Hoax: Feeling Ripped Off?

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