UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
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   Oct

                          UFO UpDates Mailing List
                                  Oct 2001

  Oct 1:

   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Rimmer - John Rimmer [14]
   Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Rimmer - Bob Young [31]
   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - - Mac Tonnies [13]
   Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [90]
   Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Clark - Jerome Clark [28]
   Re: Bubbling Seas Can Sink Ships - Hall - Richard Hall [31]
   Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? - Lan Fleming [47]
   Strange Lights - Again! - Jim Mortellaro [143]
   'Mechanical Alien' Drawings - Mac Tonnies [9]
   Something Weird From Tennessee - Kenny Young [44]
   Friedman Back On Line - Stan Friedman [6]
   Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Hall - Richard Hall [39]
   Re: Atom Experiment Brings Teleportation Closer - - John Velez [40]
   Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [23]
   Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? - - Bob Young [20]
   Re: Strange Lights - Again! - Young - Bob Young [29]
   Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Velez - John Velez [114]
   Re: 'Mechanical Alien' Drawings - Karr - Nancy Karr [28]

  Oct 2:

   Re: Strange Lights - Again! - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [53]
   Re: 'Mechanical Alien' Drawings - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [20]
   Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Randle - Kevin Randle [131]
   Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Sandow - Greg Sandow [16]
   Leeds Conference Review - Anthony Chippendale [213]
   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Clark - Jerome Clark [29]
   On Much Maligned Fresh Pairs of Dimes - Jim Mortellaro [90]
   Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Young - Bob Young [32]
   Re: Strange Lights - Again! - Hatch - Larry Hatch [45]
   Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? - - Don Ledger [35]
   Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Randle - Kevin Randle [206]
   Re: 'Mechanical Alien' Drawings - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [26]
   Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? - - Lan Fleming [20]
   Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? - - Bruce Maccabee [22]
   Cydonian Imperative: 10-2-01 The Face on Mars and - Mac Tonnies [35]
   Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [178]
   Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? - - Mac Tonnies [16]
   EW 01-Oct-01: FBI's Top 20 Internet Security Risks - Kurt Jonach [91]
   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... Hatch - Larry Hatch [42]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #353c - Alfred Lehmberg [23]
   Nick Pope's Weird World October 2001 - Georgina Bruni [121]
   X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Steve Bassett [56]
   Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? - - Bob Young [16]
   World Trade Center Hoax - Royce J. Myers III [15]
   Nick Pope Does Sport Radio UK - Georgina Bruni [2]
   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - - Donald Shevlin [19]

  Oct 3:

   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Lowe - Adam Lowe [30]
   Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Velez - John Velez [104]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #353c - Checchini - Ron Cecchini [13]
   WTC Hoax, Bell & Dames [was: World Trade Center - Ron Cecchini [60]
   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - - Jim Mortellaro [27]
   Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? - - Lan Fleming [23]
   Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? - - Lan Fleming [20]
   Budd Hopkins' UFO Seminar Announcement - 10/13/01 - Intruders
   Foundation [60]
   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Kelly - Kelly [43]
   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Hatch - Larry Hatch [24]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #353c - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [32]
   Re: Filer's Files #40 10-03-01 - George A. Filer [490]
   Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? - - Joe McGonagle [34]
   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - - Joe McGonagle [43]
   Re: Open Letter on Politically Correct Use of - Jim Mortellaro [37]
   Pope & Rendlesham 'Humanoids' - Sue Strickland [62]
   Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Jones - Sean Jones [24]
   USA: UFOS And National Security - Alfred Webre [4]
   Re: Something Weird From Tennessee - UFO UpDates - Toronto [66]
   [lunascan] Objects Near Moon? - Francis Ridge [12]

  Oct 4:

   UFO Over Singapore - UFO UpDates - Toronto [37]
   'UFO' Is Trash Bags With Glow Sticks - UFO UpDates - Toronto [26]
   Re: Pope & Rendlesham 'Humanoids' - Gates - Robert Gates [95]
   Re: [lunascan] Objects Near Moon? - Cammack - Diana Cammack [38]
   UFO-Like Sightings "Reflection Off Satellite" - Kelly [10]
   Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? - - Lan Fleming [28]
   Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [289]
   Re: Pope & Rendlesham 'Humanoids' - Strickland - Sue Strickland [17]
   Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? - - Joe McGonagle [55]
   Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Velez - John Velez [46]
   Re: UFO-Like Sightings "Reflection Off Satellite" - Sue Strickland [39]
   Re: Filer's Files #40 10-03-01 - George A. Filer [490]
   UFOs And The NOSS [Naval Ocean Surveillance - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [403]
   Re: Unidentified Object At World Trade Center? - - Donnie Shevlin [20]
   Calama - "My Wife And I Saw It!" - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [92]
   Re: UFOs And The NOSS Problem - Oberg - James Oberg [11]

  Oct 5:

   Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Bassett - Stephen G. Bassett
   [339]
   Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org> - Steven Aftergood [78]
   Re: Leeds Conference Review - Shurinov - Boris Shurinov [20]
   Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? - - Lan Fleming [49]
   Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? - - Jim Mortellaro [87]
   Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Sandow - Greg Sandow [27]
   New *U* Map - Larry Hatch [19]
   Secrecy News -- 10/4/01 - Steven Aftergood [78]
   Re: New *U* Map - Hall - Richard Hall [25]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #353d - Alfred Lehmberg [27]

  Oct 6:

   Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? - - Donnie Shevlin [71]
   Re: New *U* Map - Hatch - Larry Hatch [38]
   To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It - Richard Hall" [23]
   Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? - - Lan Fleming [30]
   Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [183]
   Research Update AFM 200-3 - Wendy Connors [33]
   Circles Grow More Complex - UFO UpDates - Toronto [65]
   Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Bassett - Stephen G. Bassett [63]
   Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? - - Neil Morris [41]
   Re: Pope & Rendlesham 'Humanoids' - Bruni - Georgina Bruni [28]
   Re: Pope & Rendlesham 'Humanoids' - Bruni - Georgina Bruni [37]
   Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? - - Joe McGonagle [61]
   Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Strickland - Sue Strickland [43]
   Re: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It - McCoy - GT McCoy [50]
   Re: Research Update AFM 200-3 - Connors - Wendy Connors [73]
   Re: Research Update AFM 200-3 - Connors - Wendy Connors [105]
   Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Sandow - Greg Sandow [68]
   Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Velez - John Velez [281]
   Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? - - Lan Fleming [30]
   Re: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [71]
   Working The Congress - Richard Hall [25]

  Oct 7:

   Re: Working The Congress - Felder - Bobbie Felder [36]
   Re: Pope & Rendlesham 'Humanoids' - Strickland - Sue Strickland [103]
   Re: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It - Webre - Alfred Webre [109]
   31793 Emails And Counting - Sean Jones [17]
   Re: Working The Congress - Colaw - John Colaw [96]

  Oct 8:

   Song Sung Blue - Jim Mortellaro [66]
   Book Sale - Roy J Hale [8]
   Re: Sheehan Saga - Cameron - Grant Cameron [45]
   Re: 31793 Emails And Counting - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [19]
   Re: 31793 Emails And Counting - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [29]
   Re: Working The Congress - Velez - John Velez [67]
   Re: Book Sale - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [23]
   Missssiippi UFO News Video Report? - SMiles Lewis [17]
   Same Song, Second Verse - Rebecca [33]
   Re: 31793 Emails And Counting - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [33]
   Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Strickland - Sue Strickland [168]
   Re: Missssiippi UFO News Video Report? - Hall - Richard Hall [13]

  Oct 9:

   Seti@home Expands Its Back Yard - UFO UpDates - Toronto [62]
   Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Velez - John Velez [64]
   Re: Working The Congress - Hall - Richard Hall [118]
   Re: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It - Sandow - Greg Sandow [60]
   Re: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It - Hall - Richard Hall [141]
   Re: 31793 Emails And Counting - Hall - Richard Hall [37]
   Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Hall - Richard Hall [180]
   Re: Sheehan Saga - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [56]
   Secrecy News -- 10/08/01 - Steven Aftergood [111]
   Nexus Magazine? - Bobbie Felder [13]
   Who Represents Us? - Jim Mortellaro [57]
   Rendlesham: Landing Deposited 10x Background - James Easton [15]
   EW: SETI Project Sets Number-Crunching Milestone - Kurt Jonach [89]
   Re: Sheehan Saga - Cammack - Diana Cammack [16]
   Re: Mississppi UFO News Video Report? - Lewis - SMiles Lewis [21]
   Re: Nexus Magazine? - Dyton - Jonathan Dyton [6]
   Mothman Movie Release Now 02-22-02 - UFO UpDates - Toronto [127]
   Re: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It - Sandow - Greg Sandow [20]
   Woman 'Travels' 600KMs. In 90 Minutes - UFO UpDates - Toronto [20]
   Re: Nexus Magazine? - Minna Hyvnen [12]
   Re: Nexus Magazine? - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [15]
   Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Vetterick - Dave Vetterick [69]
   Magonia Supplement No. 37. - John Rimmer [442]
   Getting A Grip - Wendy Connors [50]

  Oct 10:

   Re: Magonia Supplement No. 37. - Clark - Jerome Clark [32]
   Re: Getting A Grip - Clark - Jerome Clark [31]
   Re: Woman 'Travels' 600KMs. In 90 Minutes - Velez - John Velez [98]
   Re: Getting A Grip - Velez - John Velez [25]
   Re: Circles Grow More Complex - Anderson - Paul Anderson [33]
   Re: Rendlesham: Landing Deposited 10x Background - Joe McGonagle [106]
   Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [106]
   Re: Nexus Magazine? - Hale - Roy J Hale [19]
   Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Rebecca - Rebecca [85]
   Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Rebecca - Rebecca [100]
   Re: Nexus Magazine? - Johnstone - Lara Johnstone [28]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No. 37. - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [33]
   Teasing & Ridicule - Christopher Kelly [51]
   Re: Nexus Magazine? - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [179]
   Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Vetterick - Dave Vetterick [38]
   Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Velez - John Velez [56]
   Re: Sheehan Saga - Anthony - Gary Anthony [81]
   Filer's Files #41 - 2001 - WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com [372]
   Secrecy News -- 10/10/01 - Steven Aftergood [118]
   New Life On Mars Evidence 'Conclusive' - UFO UpDates - Toronto [23]
   Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [43]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No. 37. - Connors - Wendy Connors [16]
   Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Hall - "Richard Hall" [57]
   WTC Object - Sue Strickland [12]

  Oct 11:

   Re: Filer's Files #41 - 2001 - John Velez [65]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No. 37. - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [151]
   Pyramid-Shaped UFO Seen In Northern Chile - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [36]
   Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Vetterick - Dave Vetterick [89]
   Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Rebecca - Rebecca [90]
   Australian UFO National Conference 2001 - John. W. Auchettl [134]
   Position Statement On Alien Abduction - Wendy Connors [125]
   AA Enigma News - Terry Blanton [6]
   Re: Position Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez - John Velez [204]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzlez Manso - Luis R. Gonzalez
   [46]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No. 37 - Clarke - Dave Clarke [53]
   Secret Rendlesham Documents Released - Dave Clarke [136]
   How Much Lower Will Greer Go? - Chris Rutkowski [33]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Clark - Jerome Clark [24]
   Re: How Much Lower Will Greer Go? - Hall - Richard Hall [23]
   Secrecy News -- 10/10/01 - Steven Aftergood [119]
   Re: Position Statement On Alien Abduction - Connors - Wendy Connors
   [14]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez - John Velez [41]
   Re: Campaign For Disclosure - Toronto - Velez - John Velez [91]
   Re: CCCRN News: Art and Humour - Anderson - Paul Anderson [46]

  Oct 12:

   UK Government Helps Fund Crop Circle Film - UFO UpDates - Toronto [36]
   Re: Position Statement On Alien Abduction - - Sue Strickland [433]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No. 37 - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [194]
   Re: Nexus Magazine? - Danks - Darren Danks [30]
   Re: Book Sale - Hale - Roy J Hale [18]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzlez Manso - Luis R. Gonzalez
   [42]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzlez Manso - Luis R. Gonzalez
   [47]
   Re: Position Statement on Alien Abduction - Connors - Wendy Connors
   [272]
   Re: Position Statement On Alien Abduction - Connors - Wendy Connors
   [129]
   Re: Rendlesham: Landing Deposited 10x Background - Joe McGonagle [31]
   The Watchdog (e-update) - 10-12-01 - Royce J. Myers III [19]
   Statistics On Hoax Cases? - Minna Hyvonen [5]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Clark - Jerome Clark [46]
   Re: Position Statement On Alien Abduction - Hyvonen - Minna Hyvnen [87]
   Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [24]
   What We Have Here is a Failure to Communicate - Jim Mortellaro [69]
   Re: Statistics On Hoax Cases? - Vike - Brian Vike [49]
   Re: Position Statement on Alien Abduction - Connors - Wendy Connors
   [86]
   Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [55]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Rimmer - John Rimmer [80]

  Oct 13:

   Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID System - Kurt Jonach [104]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez - John Velez [146]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Randle - Kevin Randle [71]
   Chupacabras Have Been In Chile Since The 70s - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
   [55]
   Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID - John Velez [115]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Clark - Jerome Clark [105]
   Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID - Kurt Jonach [53]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [58]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [72]

  Oct 14:

   Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID - Nancy Karr [55]
   Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID - Jim Mortellaro [87]
   Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID - - Wendy Connors [103]
   Probing Abduction 'Classics' - Luis R. Gonzalez [66]

  Oct 15:

   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzalez - Luis R. Gonzalez [57]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzalez - Luis R. Gonzalez [58]
   The Abduction Of Ann Jefferies - Chris Aubeck [196]
   New Email Address For Larry Hatch - Larry Hatch [13]
   Rajesh Kumar - www.etcontact/net? - Larry Hatch [40]
   Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID - - Jim Mortellaro [57]
   Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID - - Josh Goldstein [42]
   Alien Technology Documentary? - Royce J. Myers III [17]
   Declassify This (UFO?) Document - UFO UpDates - Toronto [79]
   The Gundiah, OZ, Mackay Abduction - Leigh Blackmore [271]
   Re: Probing Abduction Classics - Connors - Wendy Connors [53]
   AA... By The By - Christopher Kelly [39]
   Re: The Abduction of Ann Jefferies - Aubeck - Chris Aubeck [119]
   Re: Rudolf Fenz 1847-1950? - Aubeck - Chris Aubeck [42]
   Security Precautions in New York City - "Jan Aldrich" [74]
   Re: Baloney Detection - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [147]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Clark - Jerome Clark [107]
   Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID - - Serge Salvaille [31]
   Secrecy News - 10/12/01 - Steven Aftergood [79]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez - John Velez [283]

  Oct 16:

   Eras News: Weekly Briefing 10.15.01 - Paul Anderson [71]
   Re: UFO UpDate: AA... By The By - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [24]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Randle - Kevin Randle [40]
   Re: Rendlesham Radiation - Easton - James Easton [228]
   Bryant's New Jimmy Carter UFO Book - Larry W. Bryant [87]
   Cellphones Spook British Ghosts - Joe McGonagle [28]
   Re: Rajesh Kumar - www.etcontact/net? - Kelly - Christopher Kelly [19]
   Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID - - Wendy Connors [92]
   Re: Position Statement on Alien Abduction - Velez - John Velez [271]
   Rajesh Kumar Is Found! - Larry Hatch [17]
   Re: Baloney Detection - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [209]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Clark - Jerome Clark [55]
   Re: AA... By The By - Tophar - Christopher Kelly [45]
   Re: Probing Abduction Classics - Gonzalez - Luis R. Gonzalez [38]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzalez - Luis R. Gonzalez [96]
   Re: Cellphones Spook British Ghosts - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [42]
   Re: Rajesh Kumar - www.etcontact/net? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [29]

  Oct 17:

   Re: Security Precautions in New York City - Velez - John Velez [110]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Sandow - Greg Sandow [30]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #354 Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [38]
   Re: AA... By The By - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [23]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Aubeck - Chris Aubeck [178]
   Re: Cellphones Spook British Ghosts - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [37]
   Re: Rendlesham Radiation - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [74]
   Re: Security Precautions in New York City - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [92]
   Re: Security precautions in New York City - McCoy - GT McCoy [27]
   CCCRN News: Fall 2001 Lectures - Paul Anderson [75]
   Re: AA... By The By - Tophar - Chris Kelly [35]
   Filer's Files #42 - 2001 - George A. Filer [394]

  Oct 18:

   Secrecy News -- 10/17/01 - Steven Aftergood [96]
   'Hooked On The Outdoors' Magazine - Wendy Christensen [7]
   Re: Security Precautions in New York City - - Alfred Lehmberg [100]
   Re: AA... By The By - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [24]
   Re: Security Precautions in New York City - Murray - Marty Murray [20]
   Message For Larry Hatch - John Hayes [21]
   Re: Security Precautions In New York City - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [58]
   'The Highest Step In The World' - UFO UpDates - Toronto [30]
   Re: Security Precautions in New York City - Velez - John Velez [73]
   Re: Security Precautions in New York City - - Alfred Lehmberg [25]
   Re: Security Precautions In New York City - McCoy - GT McCoy [70]
   Re: Security Precautions in New York City - Sandow - Greg Sandow [18]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzalez - Luis R. Gonzalez [36]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzalez - Luis R. Gonzalez [23]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzalez - Luis R. Gonzalez [164]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Wilson - Katharina Wilson [133]
   Re: Probing Abduction Classics - Wilson - Katharina Wilson [80]
   Alberto Sanmartin? - Gary Anthony [6]
   Re: Message For Larry Hatch - Hatch - Larry Hatch [25]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Sandow - Greg Sandow [12]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [92]

  Oct 19:

   Re: Security Precautions in New York City - - Alfred Lehmberg [48]
   Re: AA... By The By - Tophar - Chris Kelly [54]
   Re: Rendlesham Radiation - Hale - Roy J Hale [14]
   Re: Probing Abduction Classics - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [105]
   Re: AA... By The By - Richard Hall [68]
   A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Jim Mortellaro [58]
   Re: Security Precautions in New York City - Sandow - Greg Sandow [90]
   UFOs Reported Over Suriname - UFO UpDates - Toronto [25]
   Re: UFOs Reported Over Suriname - Hall - Richard Hall [15]
   Goethe's Sighting? - Chris Aubeck [17]

  Oct 20:

   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez - John Velez [86]
   Re: Rendlesham Radiation - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [28]
   Re: Security Precautions in New York City - - Alfred Lehmberg [198]
   Re: AA... By The By - Tophar - Christopher Kelly [84]
   Drawing of Hickson/Parker Entity - Mac Tonnies [5]
   Re: UFOs Reported Over Suriname - Hatch - Larry Hatch [32]
   Re: Drawing of Hickson/Parker Entity - Hatch - Larry Hatch [15]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Strickland - Sue Strickland [53]
   Re: Pope & Rendlesham 'Humanoids' - Bruni - Georgina Bruni [70]
   Re: Secret Rendlesham Documents Released - Bruni - Georgina Bruni [48]
   New Fatima Book - Joaquim Fernandes [33]
   Re: AA... By The By - Stickland - Sue Strickland [201]
   Re: Drawing of Hickson/Parker Entity - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [20]

  Oct 21:

   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez - John Velez [142]
   Re: Drawing of Hickson/Parker Entity - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [15]
   Re: AA... By The By - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [30]
   British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Dave Clarke [60]
   How Churchill Chased Flying Saucers - UFO UpDates - Toronto [71]
   Re: AA... By The By - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [22]
   UFO/ET Book For Children - Jeff Westover [19]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [37]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [50]
   Re: AA... By The By - Hall - Richard Hall [58]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [34]
   Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Johnstone - Lara Johnstone [20]
   Articles On Exobiology - Joe McGonagle [34]

  Oct 22:

   Re: AA... By The By - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [20]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [69]
   Re: AA... By The By - Tophar - Christopher Kelly [286]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clarke - Dave Clarke [39]
   Re: AA... By The By - Tophar - Christopher Kelly [91]
   Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Tophar - Christopher Kelly [36]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Strickland - Sue Strickland [112]
   Ex-Chilean Naval Chief - "UFOs Are Real" - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [39]
   The Watchdog (e-update) - 10-22-01 - Royce J. Myers III [23]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Roberts - Andy Roberts [41]
   Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Velez - John Velez [85]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [50]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez - John Velez [53]
   Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [30]

  Oct 23:

   Daylight Disc Taped By Hungarian Military Pilot - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [3]
   Eras News: Weekly Briefing 10.22.01 - Paul Anderson [44]
   A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Luis R. Gonzalez [56]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzalez - Luis R. Gonzalez [43]
   Re: Probing Abduction Classics - Gonzalez - Luis R. Gonzalez [46]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzalez - Luis R. Gonzalez [13]
   Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Murray - Marty Murray [78]
   Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [104]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Jan Aldrich [49]
   LDT [was: AA... By The By] - Christopher Kelly [49]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clarke - Dave Clarke [96]
   Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [32]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Strickland - Sue Strickland [35]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clark - Jerome Clark [39]
   Copyright On Ideas? - Wendy Christensen [16]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez - John Velez [54]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - McCartney - Pat McCartney [47]

  Oct 24:

   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Hall - Richard Hall [46]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Christensen - Wendy Christensen [22]
   Secrecy News -- 10/23/01 - Steven Aftergood [71]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [97]
   Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [101]
   Richard Doty Interview? - Robert Gates [5]
   Re: How Churchill Chased Flying Saucers - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [41]
   Cydonian Imperative: 10-23-01 Mars Odyssey - Mac Tonnies [28]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Deardorff - Jim Deardorff [39]
   Re: Copyright On Ideas? - Tophar - Christopher Kelly [49]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clarke - Dave Clarke [61]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clarke - Dave Clarke [20]
   Eras News: 10-24-01 Odyssey Successfully Arrives - Paul Anderson [80]
   Filer's Files #43 - 10-24-01 - George A. Filer [466]

  Oct 25:

   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Strickland - Sue Strickland [58]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clarke - Dave Clarke [31]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez - John Velez [79]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 326 - Edoardo Russo [87]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 327 - Edoardo Russo [102]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clark - Jerome Clark [60]
   Re: Rendlesham Radiation - Hale - Roy J Hale [25]
   New Video - Roy J Hale [6]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Gates - Robert Gates [29]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Gates - Robert Gates [37]
   EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO Case? - Kurt Jonach [56]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 328 - Edoardo Russo [126]
   Re: Richard Doty Interview? - Myers - Royce Myers [23]
   Re: EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO - Kevin Randle [15]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 329 - Edoardo Russo [118]
   Re: EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO - Sue Strickland [84]
   Re: Rendlesham Radiation - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [68]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clarke - Dave Clarke [36]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clarke - Dave Clarke [73]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Deardorff - Jim Deardorff [47]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Rimmer - John Rimmer [18]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clark - Jerome Clark [34]
   Re: Rendlesham Radiation - Bolton - David Bolton [22]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clark - Jerome Clark [85]

  Oct 26:

   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Rimmer - John Rimmer [13]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez - John Velez [47]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [73]
   Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Cecchini - Ron Cecchini [21]
   Re: EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO - Kevin Randle [47]
   Secrecy News -- 10/25/01 - Steven Aftergood [68]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clark - Jerome Clark [37]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Rimmer - John Rimmer [37]
   Maneuvers Mistaken For UFOs In Ohio - Kenny Young [51]
   Speaker: "Aliens Are Here" - UFO UpDates - Toronto [49]
   Re: EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO - Kurt Jonac [25]
   Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Westover - Jeff Westover [76]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clarke - Dave Clarke [32]
   'UFO Mayor'? We'll Know In Two Weeks - John E.L. Tenney [98]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 330 - Edoardo Russo [157]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clark - Jerome Clark [41]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clark - Jerome Clark [20]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clark - Jerome Clark [35]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clark - Jerome Clark [25]
   Weekend Aurora - Nick Balaskas [26]
   Re: EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO - Kevin Randle [18]
   Re: Speaker: "Aliens Are Here" - Bassett - Stephen Bassett [86]
   Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Velez - John Velez [89]
   Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Strickland - Sue Strickland [192]
   Beware New Scam! - Bruce Maccabee [71]
   Re: Rendlesham Radiation - Bolton - David Bolton [27]
   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Strickland - Sue Strickland [74]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clarke - Dave Clarke [66]
   Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Velez - John Velez [129]
   Re: Beware New Scam! - Sandow - Greg Sandow [85]

  Oct 27:

   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Rimmer - John Rimmer [38]
   'Profiles In Ufology' - Reed Hall [34]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Rimmer - John Rimmer [58]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Sandow - Greg Sandow [71]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - McCartney - Pat McCartney [54]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clark - Jerome Clark [82]
   Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Felder - Bobbie Felder [78]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [100]
   Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [200]
   Re: Beware New Scam! - Furlotte - David Furlotte [49]
   'Footfall' - Sean Jones [89]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clarke - Dave Clarke [86]
   Re: Beware New Scam! - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [17]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Campagna - Palmiro Campagna [42]
   'Strange Days... Indeed' Tonight - DR. Steven Greer - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [13]

  Oct 28:

   Interview With New Pascagoula '73 Witness - Kenny Young [126]
   UFO & ETs Haunt Chile Construction Site - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [75]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clark - Jerome Clark [30]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clarke - Dave Clarke [38]
   FYI - Reliable Info On 'Nigerian Scam' - Wendy Christensen [5]
   Re: Rendlesham Radiation - Hale - Roy J Hale [13]

  Oct 29:

   Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Gonzalez - Luis R. Gonzalez [51]
   Re: Beware New Scam! - Aubeck - Chris Aubeck [16]
   Re: 'Strange Days... Indeed' Tonight - DR. Steven - John Velez [26]
   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Rudiak - David Rudiak [58]
   Secrecy News -- 10/23/01 - Steven Aftergood [68]
   US Tax Money At Work - Larry W. Bryant [19]
   CCCRN News: Eyewitness Report - 'Beams' Create - Paul Anderson [53]
   Research Institute Of Anomalous Phenomena - Lara Johnstone [113]
   Richard C. Phillips? - John Hayes [16]

  Oct 30:

   Eras News: Weekly Briefing 10.29.01 - Paul Anderson [50]
   UFO Over Madrid - 1863 - chris aubeck [35]
   Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Velez - John Velez [50]
   Secrecy News -- 10/25/01 - Steven Aftergood [102]
   Cydonian Imperative: New 'Faces' on Mars - Mac Tonnies [96]
   Ghosts, UFOs and Local Politics - John Tenney [115]
   Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Cecchini - Ron Cecchini [64]
   Question for Stanton Friedman - Ron Cecchini [18]
   Psychological Trauma [was: UFO/ET Book For - Ron Cecchini [58]
   Cydonian Imperative: 'Out-of-Frame' Technique - Mac Tonnies [129]

  Oct 31:

   Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Gates - Robert Gates [48]
   UFO Magazine USA On Philip Corso - Gildas Bourdais [27]
   More MUFON Dissent - Larry W. Bryant [36]
   Cydonian Imperative: Clarification - Mac Tonnies [13]
   Live Stream: Erich von Daniken Speaks at U.S. - Diana Botsford [37]

   The number enclosed in brackets is the number of lines of new text in





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             Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:22:24 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 09:05:30 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Rimmer


 >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 08:58:40 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

 >I have written many a UFO article, some have even been
 >published. I have also written a few Sci-Fi (sorry Kevin we
 >Brits prefer that term) stories which have never been published.

This particular 'Brit' very strongly dislikes both "Sci-Fi" and
"Brit". As the latter began as a derogatory term used by
republicans in Northern Ireland I regard as an offensive racial
epithet.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk









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                   Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Rimmer

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:25:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 09:08:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Rimmer


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 20:22:03 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >I hadn't really planned to say anything about this, but what the
 >hell, it's Saturday and the football game is over.

 >>Source: Irondequoit Post, Rochester, N.Y.

 >>http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=2421069&BRD=1891&PAG=461&dept_id=12
1573&rfi=6

<snip>

 >Well, he's correct here. There is no documented explanation.

Kevin, List:

Not even any documented proof, like sneaked pixs, a stolen
Romulan communicator.

 >But then, we shouldn't reject part of the solution because it
 >doesn't cover every case. Kind of like suggesting that aircraft
 >haven't been misidentified as a UFO because some were really
 >weather balloons. Like all aspects of the UFO phenomena, I don't
 >think there is a single explanation that covers everything.

 >And, I've never understood why we all say that 90% of the UFO
 >sightings are explained in the mundane, but all of the
 >abductions must be alien. Couldn't it be that some are, in fact,
 >explanable in terrestrial terms? Not all, but some?

An important observation. Why wouldn't the totality of UFO
phenomena be any different than any other human matter. There
are always a lot of greys, but not so many blacks and whites. A
wide range of human conditions and situations _should_ be
present. Any theory which does not include this is clearly in
deep trouble.

I'm always doubtfull when somebody claims a simple explanation.


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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                Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... -

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 10:11:50 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 09:09:41 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... -


 >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 08:58:40 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

<snip>

 >Larry's writing partner is often Jerry Pournelle who
 >also has a
 >Phd.

Readers may recall Pournelle from the introduction to Pflock's
"Roswell."


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 816-561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
           http://mactonnies.com









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                 Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 14:05:25 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 09:16:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Mortellaro


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 20:22:03 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com


 >Good Evening, List, all -

 >I hadn't really planned to say anything about this, but what the hell,
 >it's Saturday and the football game is over.

 >>Source: Irondequoit Post, Rochester, N.Y.

 >http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=2421069&BRD=1891&PAG=461&dep>t_id=12
1573&rfi=6


 >>Friday 28 September, 2001


 >>Aliens Among Us

 >>Christine C. Fien/Messenger Post Staff
 >>September 27, 2001


 >>SUNY Brockport Professor Discusses The Alien Abduction Experience

 >>Nearly one million Americans say they've had an alien abduction
 >>experience.

<snip>

 >>Hypnosis can create false memories, Appelle said, and abductees
 >>don't go to a hypnotist out of the blue. They go because they
 >>have "missing time" - sometimes hours they can't account for -
 >>or suspect they may have been abducted.

 >Or they have had vivid dreams and friends suggest they see
 >someone, or they have experienced sleep paralysis and aren't
 >sure what happened to them and friends suggest they see
 >someone... Oh, yes, sleep paralysis doesn't count...


Dear Kevin, All, Errol,

You are missing a point, Kevin. Vivid dreams are distinguished
by most if not all abductees. I've had very vivid dreams.
However in my most sincere and accurate memory and knowledge,
there is a very significant difference between _any_ dream and
the perceived abduction experience. Ask any abductee. This is
most true of those of us who have had spontaneous or other
recall. There is no doubt of the source of the recall, eh? No
Jacobs or Hoppy to blame for planting our seeds.

 >>While hypnosis may embellish the story, the core experience is
 >>still there, Appelle said.

 >And in some cases there is no core story as evidenced by those
 >claiming horrific Vietnam combat and which they told under
 >hypnosis with all the proper emotion, only to have their
stories >exposed as untrue.

One never knows about truth. But you may single out many such
stories. None of which impacts the truth of the abduction
phenomenon. Each must be treated seperately. Besides, we who
perceive ourselves to have had these experiences were largely
not serving in Nam. Or had any traumatic experience with which
to develope such trauma. In fact, it's the other way around. The
experience produces our trauma.

 >>Sleep-paralysis as an explanation to debunk abduction accounts
 >>also falls short, he said. During an occurrence of
 >>sleep-paralysis, people wake up feeling like they can't move,
 >>can't speak, and sometimes sense a disturbing presence in the
 >>room. The problem is, Appelle said, that this theory doesn't
 >>explain highway abductions. Sleep-paralysis experiences also
 >>tend to be very vague, while accounts of alien abductions are
 >>rich in detail, he said.

 >And no one said that sleep paralysis explains all cases of
 >alien abduction, only that it explains some. Couple that to a
 >hypnotist who is poorly trained, and the rich detail can be
 >found.

Only too true.

 >Some sleep paralysis experiences are quite detailed. I'm
 >confused as to why Dr. Appelle would say something like this,
 >unless the writer got part of the quote wrong.

 >>Appelle said he is "open-minded" on the subject of abductions.

 >>"I don't, like some people, think that it is inherently
 >>impossible, so I'm willing to entertain the idea that these
 >>experiences are exactly what they seem to be," he said. "It's a
 >>phenomena that does not yet have a documented explanation."

 >Well, he's correct here. There is no documented explanation. But
 >then, we shouldn't reject part of the solution because it
 >doesn't cover every case. Kind of like suggesting that aircraft
 >haven't been misidentified as a UFO because some were really
 >weather balloons. Like all aspects of the UFO phenomena, I don't
 >think there is a single explanation that covers everything.

 >And, I've never understood why we all say that 90% of the UFO
 >sightings are explained in the mundane, but all of the
 >abductions must be alien. Couldn't it be that some are, in fact,
 >explanable in terrestrial terms? Not all, but some?

Does this detract from those which are not? This is the heart of
research is it not? To make the distinction. Listen, Kevin...
I've not the heart to debate with anyone regarding the lameness
of so many of the arguments against. Unless you've been there,
it's nearly impossible to extrapolate. However I have one very
stupid question. It must be very stupid, I can't for the life of
me garner an answer.

Hasn't anyone used the sort of drugs on people like us, sodium
pentathol or any of it's ilk to help determine truth? Shucks, I
see it in the movies all the time. Must be truth, eh? I mean,
it's on the screen... on the toob.... inn't?


Jim








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                    Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:28:57 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 09:18:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Clark


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 20:22:03 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Appelle said he is "open-minded" on the subject of abductions.

 >>"I don't, like some people, think that it is inherently
 >>impossible, so I'm willing to entertain the idea that these
 >>experiences are exactly what they seem to be," he said. "It's a
 >>phenomena that does not yet have a documented explanation."

 >Well, he's correct here. There is no documented explanation. But
 >then, we shouldn't reject part of the solution because it
 >doesn't cover every case. Kind of like suggesting that aircraft
 >haven't been misidentified as a UFO because some were really
 >weather balloons. Like all aspects of the UFO phenomena, I don't
 >think there is a single explanation that covers everything.

 >And, I've never understood why we all say that 90% of the UFO
 >sightings are explained in the mundane, but all of the
 >abductions must be alien. Couldn't it be that some are, in fact,
 >explanable in terrestrial terms? Not all, but some?

I urge all interested listfolk to read Stuart Appelle's paper in
JUFOS. It is the finest survey I've ever seen of the relative
strengths and weakness of all proposed explanations, mundane and
extraordinary, for the abduction phenomenon.  The citation is:

"The Abduction Experience: A Critical Evaluation of Theory and
Evidence." Journal of UFO Studies (n.s., 6, 1995/1996): 29-78.

The issue is available from CUFOS at 2457 West Peterson Avenue,
Chicago, Illinois 60659.


Jerry Clark











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                   Re: Bubbling Seas Can Sink Ships - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 19:04:49 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 09:20:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Bubbling Seas Can Sink Ships - Hall


 >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 04:45:03 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Bubbling Seas Can Sink Ships

 >>Source: NewScientist

 >>http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991350

 >Hello fellow Listerions,

 >I don't mean to mock these important findings but I came to the
 >same conclusion many years ago. Maybe I was drawn into
 >scientific experimentation as a child in the 1950s by the
 >inspiration of my mentor, "Mr. Wizard" on TV. Seeing the post
 >below regarding bubbling left me feeling unusually weird and
 >frisky tonight. I will slip on my ass in one of the lower
 >recesses of my childhood memories. That was a low grade of humor
 >that one may someday see in the future film "American Pie 3".

 >As a kid I found the above out in my home laboratory, the
 >bathtub. It was part of my study of UFOs - Unusual Flatulent
 >Objects.

 >It must have been one Thanksgiving when, in the water of the
 >bathtubub after dinner, I discovered that I was a mighty methane
 >generator. It would emanate from me in frequent and uniformly
 >large bubbles that would float up to the surface and be released
 >to jump out of that open air into the free atmosphere. That
 >phenomenon caused me to experiment to further discover its
 >properties.

. . . .

Josh & List,

I have deleted most of the swamp gas rather than further pollute
the atmosphere. Surely this is some of the most important
research reported on this List recently. The bubble has finally
burst.


Dick











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                 Unidentified Object at World Trade Center?

From: Lan Fleming <LanFleming@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:06:58 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 09:23:47 -0400
Subject: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center?


The Drudge Report web site shows frames from a video reportedly
taken 10 seconds after the second tower of the World Trade
Center was struck on 9/11. It shows a dark object streaking
downward at a shallow angle from the first tower, starting near
the level of the impact. The frame sequence is at:

http://www.drudgereport.com/flash91.htm

It has been dismissed by some people as a bug or bird flying
close to the video camera, but the first frame suggests
otherwise. That frame shows the dark streak cut off abruptly at
the edge of the building, as if the object is partially hidden
by the tower itself. And the apparent size and speed of the
object are such that it probably should have been visible
against the building in the frame prior to its first appearance
if it was between the building and the camera. That prior frame
isn't shown on the Drudge web site, but is part of the movie
sequence that can be downloaded from another web site:

http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/wtc1x.gif

This indicates that the object may have been behind the
building, not in front of it. If so, an estimate can be made of
its speed, assuming it was at the same distance from the camera
as the WTC tower or greater (in fact, the object almost appears
to have originated from within the tower). The width of the
building is about 170 feet, according to the diagram at:

http://webs.ii.ca/nalyd/skyscrapers/tallones.htm

Using that width for the distance scale, a video frame rate of
60 per second, and the distance covered by the leading edge of
the streak between the first and fourth frame, the speed would
have been about 3,800 miles per hour, more than 5 times the
speed of sound. This is, of course, too high a speed for the
object to be a helicopter, although it is within the range of
some military jets. Drudge says there were no witness reports
of any military aircraft at the time, although maybe even a jet
flying low at Mach 5 could go unnoticed in the chaos and terror.

A missile might be another possibility, although it seems to me
that a missile would probably have impacted somewhere where it
would have been discovered. I don't know whether or not the
explosion itself could have propelled a large chunk of debris to
that kind of speed, but I don't think so.

The provenance of this footage appears to be well established.
It was taken by a news organization, not amateurs. The video
clip originally was posted by Fox News at:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34238,00.html

I haven't been able to get my browser to display it properly,
though.

This may be something that one of the experts on the list (Bruce
Maccabee?) should take a closer look at.


Lan Fleming









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                           Strange Lights - Again!

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:58:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 10:27:14 -0400
Subject: Strange Lights - Again!


Lights in the sky. Rosemarie and I moved upstate to a place
where the trout streams flow and the air is nice. (From
"Hurricane" by the Bard). The sky is also nice. I cannot recall
being in such clear atmosphere in a long, long time. It was this
way in the late forties and very early fifties in the Bronx,
believe it or not. In those times I had seen the milky way on
numerous occasions from my home on Wickham Avenue. And during a
most splendid solar maximum, the Aurora Borealis. Truth.

It's the way it is up here. A few nights ago the Aurora came.
Not the one in my garage. The one in the sky. It was weak for
certain. But I saw it. And I see other things here too. Things I
have already reported on UpDates but wish to report again, this
time with further explanation. These things may have nothing to
do with aliens from the planet Mongo. But these are Unidentified
Flying Objects, notwithstanding.

First the description of the lights. 'Light' actually. One
light. A dim star is what you see at first. At zenith. And one
at about 45 degrees in the Southern sky. Just those two places.
Hey, maybe the Air Farce is experimenting with swamp gas or
something secret in them places. I dunno. But those are the
_only_ places I see this phenomenon. It is a paradox in truth
because it cannot happen.

The light is a dim star. Not moving. I am drawn to that point in
the night sky by whim or fancy or some strange need to just go
out there and look up. It starts that way. When I was a kid I
would feel this "high strangeness," grab my telescope and binocs
and go out in the back yard. I would look straight up at zenith.
I would see this dim star. Maybe four or so magnitude or less.
Yeah, less. Star.

Then it starts moving. Erratically. Just the one star. Those
near it are not moving. Just this one object. OK? So it ain't me
eyes, Dudes and Dudesses. Because there are other stars nearby
not moving. And it moves with or without averted vision. In
fact, there were some occasions when with averted visions, I
would see even dimmer objects doing the same thing. But never
the stars in the nighborhood. And the displacement of this star
in it's erratic movement, is usually no more than a few arc
seconds or at most, a degree or so. Like the other night. Two or
three degrees of arc. The little guys are brave and gettin'
braver.

The movement is erratic. Starts, stops, moves this way and that.
Zig-zag. Circular. Unbelievable, even in those days. Nothing we
know moves like that. And never did I go back inside the house
and ask someone to come out and witness it. I could not. Would
not. Can't recall. Because the high strangeness prevented me
from mentioning this to anyone. And usually, when this happened,
something else would happen during the ensuing nights.

I digress. After looking at zenith and seeing this sight, I
would next automatically, mechanically almost, go to the side of
the house which faced South. I would look halfway up the sky
from the horizon and sure enough. There it would be, moving just
like the star at zenith. This one never was motionless. And that
Southern sky, that Southern side of the house, is where my
bedroom faced. One of my bedrooms. I had several as I grew up.
And it was at that window facing South from which the solid blue
light came. That one.

For several nights now, after starting to smoke again (I had not
touched cancer stix for 15 plus years) I decided to go outside
to kill some cells in my lungs, when this feeling came over me
again. High Strangeness. It is a combination of mixed up
feelings. Among those which I can recognize are... Fear...
Wonder... Anticipation... a little terror... and something I can
only recognize and describe as a feeling of some past
recognition. Something expected is going to happen. I started
smoking the morning of 9/11.

The sky has been clear and crisp for the entire week we've been
here. The six inch Cassegrain is busy getting to temperature.
The five inch reflector is cooling down. The binocs are in the
garage so they are not gonna fog at the wrong time.

I have to go outside. Rosemarie looks at me and asks what's
wrong. I tell her, "I dunno. But I feel funny. Strange funny.
Please, come out with me." I bundle her up. It's cold. She can't
take cold or heat. Straight out the door and I say to her,
before looking at the sky - on purpose - "Sweetheart, look
straight up and tell me if you see anything unusual."

"She tells me there is a star, a very dim one, moving to and
fro." She says it must be a... and stops. She doesn't know what
it may be. I say, just describe it and she does. As I've seen it
hundreds of times before, when I was young. Same description

"Do you feel anything at all, I mean, physically?"

"No."

I look up and there the sucker is. Moving like years ago. Oh
shit. What now? I say, "Let's go back inside and go out the deck
door and see if there is anything in that part of the sky." She
hesitates. "What's the matter?"

"I _do_ feel funny. I am afraid. I don't want to be out here
anymore." We go back inside and I ask her to look at the
Southern sky. It takes a few moments of cajoling. I promise her
a night of ecstasy.

"Oh yeah? That's going to be a long distance piece of work."
"Why?" "You're sleeping in the bathtub tonight. Last time you
promised me ecstasy all I got was ...." I shall leave out the
personal part. Ahem.

We go out back and it's the same thing about forty-five degrees
up from zenith.

After a cup of Cafe' Barbera, I ask her to tell me if the other
surrounding stars were moving and she explains that it was just
those two.

Nothing has happened to us that we are aware. And I am always
aware if something has happened. I get that "funny feeling" in
the morning. The one I shoulda got the night before? No, not
"that" funny feeling.

As a perceived abductee, I cannot explain this. Not a problem
with the eyes. My next door neighbor came out this morning and
told me she's seen me with the telescope. Invites me in for
coffee. I bring Elio's fresh ground beans and her husband
grovels at the aroma. There, in the kitchen, is a 9 inch folded
Cassie, the one I've always lusted after. Does everything but
jump up and down and spit wooden nickels. Built-in
microprocessors do the work. I am drooling. I trade him TWO
nights of my personal use of this wonder for 1/4 pound of Cafe'
Barbera. I am almost out of this stuff and you may imagine,
those of you who know me, how much this is costing me. I adore a
good cup of Joe.

We talk, he tells me if I'd seen the crazy star this past week
and describes what I've seen for years. He knows I am writing a
book because I have no drapes in my office yet, and everyone can
look inside and see me typing away day and night. Especially
night with the lights on. We talk some more. He tells me "Did
you know that the locksmith you are using was a student of
Imbroglio, and that he took the class out on UFO watching field
trips in Mount Kisco in the 80's? I said I did. He told me. He
asked me if I believed in UFO's and I said I did. Asked if I
believed in the abduction experience and said, "Well, you may as
well know. I do. I was. And I still likely am." I knew I could
say that because he asked the question by using the exact
phrase, "The Abduction Experience." Either he was Fill Class in
drag or he was one. He was one. And he described the same thing
happening to him as a child. His wife just looked at him like
she was in a trance. I asked him if he would consider sharing
his story with me, no names. He said yes to that. I now have
another witness for the book. And his story is very similar to
mine.

Maybe there is a reason for those funny stars. The ones acting
like they were alive.

Maybe they are alive. Maybe there is something to all this other
than strange coincidences and funny eye problems. I mean, here
are two people, three actually if I count the man's wifey, who
see the same thing. One of us can be lying or crazy. But when,
out of a clear blue sky, some guy whips out, "Hey, have you seen
that crazy star....." you know something is happening here, but
you don't know what it is. Do you, Mr. Jones!?


Jim Mortellaro









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                         'Mechanical Alien' Drawings

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:16:44 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 10:39:50 -0400
Subject: 'Mechanical Alien' Drawings


List,

I've read many accounts of "Gray" aliens being robots of some
sort, and drew a couple pictures expounding on this idea just
for the fun of it (actually I drew 'em a long time ago and just
put them online tonight).

(I'm not an "experiencer" and these _aren't_ drawn from memory.)

They can be seen at:

http://mactonnies.com/doodles.html

--Mac










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                       Something Weird From Tennessee

From: Kenny Young <ufo@FUSE.NET>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 04:07:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 10:45:25 -0400
Subject: Something Weird From Tennessee

Enclosed is a strange report from Tennessee I received via email
early this morning. I responded with a message asking for
clarification of the word 'figure.' I could only imagine that
his use of the word 'figure' was an effort to describe something
difficult to put into words or might have been because of a
regional dialect or something similar. I'll try to follow up on
this Tennesse report.

KY

-------------------

I am from Wartrace, TN and am a student at Tennessee
Technological University. On Sunday, September 23, 2001, at
about 7:30 pm, I was passing through the outskirts of Machester,
TN on my way to TTU. I saw a glowing figure in the sky but
didn't really think anything about it. It was already dark
outside. As I approached the figure I noticed that it was moving
or should I say floating. It was close enough to the ground to
where I could make out what it looked like. I looked like a
fireball that had a sort of "cap" on top. The "cap" was like a
cone with the tip cut off, it was flattened out at the top. The
"cap" fit on the fireball like figure. The UFO had a yellowish
orange glow to it. I watched it float over my truck and out into
a field and away until I couldn't see it anymore. It never
really shot away really fast, just kept a constant, yet quick
speed. I didn't understand it because people haven't pictured a
figure like this one before (to my knowledge). I guess it could
have been something else, but I have never seen anything like
it. Sorry I reported it so late but I didn't know exactly what
to do. Maybe you'll know what I should do or maybe you are just
the one to tell. Let me know what you think about this or what
you can find out. E'mail me back at jva0542@tnech.edu as soon as
possible. Thanks for your time and understanding. Maybe you can
bring me to a better understanding of what I saw.

Thanks again,

(name and email address deleted for privacy)

-------------------

Dear (name deleted),

I am having trouble understanding your description and
especially your use of the term 'figure' to describe this. For
example: "the cap fit on the fireball like a figure" seems to
have nothing that could make sense to me or illustrate an image
workable from a basic framework to reference from. The word
'figure' as is commonly used might indicate arms, body and legs,
such as "stick figure." Could you kindly help out with a
clarification of this?


Thanks for taking the time to report this,

Kenny Young









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                            Friedman Back On Line

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 07:39:10 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 10:47:20 -0400
Subject: Friedman Back On Line


Errol:

My Email server (Brunnet.net) has finally made it back on line!
Down six days. So if anybody has been trying to reach me, I am
sorry, but apparently your messages were bounced.


Stan Friedman
fsphys@brunnet.net








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                    Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 14:13:24 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 10:49:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Hall


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:25:50 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 20:22:03 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>I hadn't really planned to say anything about this, but what the
 >>hell, it's Saturday and the football game is over.

 >>>Source: Irondequoit Post, Rochester, N.Y.

 >>http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=2421069&BRD=1891&PAG=461&dept_id=12
1573&rfi=6

 ><snip>

 >>Well, he's correct here. There is no documented explanation.

 >Kevin, List:

 >Not even any documented proof, like sneaked pixs, a stolen
 >Romulan communicator.

 >>But then, we shouldn't reject part of the solution because it
 >>doesn't cover every case. Kind of like suggesting that aircraft
 >>haven't been misidentified as a UFO because some were really
 >>weather balloons. Like all aspects of the UFO phenomena, I don't
 >>think there is a single explanation that covers everything.

 >>And, I've never understood why we all say that 90% of the UFO
 >>sightings are explained in the mundane, but all of the
 >>abductions must be alien. Couldn't it be that some are, in fact,
 >>explanable in terrestrial terms? Not all, but some?

 >An important observation. Why wouldn't the totality of UFO
 >phenomena be any different than any other human matter. There
 >are always a lot of greys, but not so many blacks and whites. A
 >wide range of human conditions and situations _should_ be
 >present. Any theory which does not include this is clearly in
 >deep trouble.

 >I'm always doubtfull when somebody claims a simple explanation.

 >Clear skies,

 >Bob Young

Bob,

You mean simple explanations like "swamp gas," "ball lightning,"
"fireballs?"


Dick









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              Re: Atom Experiment Brings Teleportation Closer -

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:18:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 10:59:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Atom Experiment Brings Teleportation Closer -


 >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 07:21:07 -0400
 >To: "- UFO UpDates Subscribers -":;
 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Atom Experiment Brings Teleportation Closer

 >Source: Japan Today

 >http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=8&id=87339

 >Atom Experiment Brings Teleportation Closer

 >Reuters-- Thursday, September 27, 2001 at 09:30 JST LONDON
 >Physicists in Denmark have made two samples of trillions of
 >atoms interact at a distance in an experiment which may bring
 >"Star Trek"-style teleportation and rapid quantum computing
 >closer to reality.

 >Eugene Polzik and his colleagues at the University of Aarhus are
 >not about to beam anyone up to the Starship Enterprise, but
 >their research reported in the science journal Nature on
 >Wednesday makes the idea of instantly transporting an object
 >from one place to another less far fetched.


Hi All,

The article goes on to say:

 >It involves quantum entanglement  a mysterious concept of
 >entwining two or more particles without physical contact. Albert
 >Einstein once described it as "spooky action at a distance."

Gee, I wonder if a civilization that is maybe older and more
scientifically advanced could figure out a way to develop
technology that would take advantage of the principle expressed
in the above and allow them to pass through solid objects!
<VBEG>(Like walls, ceilings, closed doors, closed windows,
etc.etc.etc.)

Seems like the more we learn, the less 'far fetched' some of the
details reported by abductees become. ;) Sure, we're a long way
from taking technological advantage of findings like the one
above, but maybe it isn't beyond the science of a race capable
of creating machines that demonstrate the abilities/behaviors
that UFOs do.


Regards,

John Velez


            A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
            www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
   "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."







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                  Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:38:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 11:01:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Salvaille


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us
 >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:28:57 -0500

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 20:22:03 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >I urge all interested listfolk to read Stuart Appelle's paper in
 >JUFOS. It is the finest survey I've ever seen of the relative
 >strengths and weakness of all proposed explanations, mundane and
 >extraordinary, for the abduction phenomenon.  The citation is:

 >"The Abduction Experience: A Critical Evaluation of Theory and
 >Evidence." Journal of UFO Studies (n.s., 6, 1995/1996): 29-78.

 >The issue is available from CUFOS at 2457 West Peterson Avenue,
 >Chicago, Illinois 60659.

<snip>

Jerry and List,

The article is also online at:

http://www.spacelab.net/~jvif/appelle1.htm

This is John Velez' web site.


Serge










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              Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:39:05 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 11:03:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -


 >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:06:58 -0600
 >Subject: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center?
 >From: Lan Fleming <LanFleming@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>

<snip>

 >Drudge says there were no witness reports of any military aircraft
 >at the time, although maybe even a jet flying low at Mach 5 could
 >go unnoticed in the chaos and terror.

There was no chaos and terror prior to the approach of this
hypothetical "Mach 5" military jet. In fact, maybe there wasn't
any airliner crashes at all, but tens of thousands of windows
just broken by the sound.

<snip>

 >The provenance of this footage appears to be well established.

<snip>

 >the video cllip originally was posted by Fox News at:

 >http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34238,00.html

This validates it? Oh, Lordy


Clear skies,

Bob Young










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                     Re: Strange Lights - Again! - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:45:41 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 11:05:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Strange Lights - Again! - Young


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:58:43 EDT
 >Subject: Strange Lights - Again!
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >Then it starts moving. Erratically. Just the one star. Those
 >near it are not moving. Just this one object. OK? So it ain't me
 >eyes, Dudes and Dudesses. Because there are other stars nearby
 >not moving. And it moves with or without averted vision. In
 >fact, there were some occasions when with averted visions, I
 >would see even dimmer objects doing the same thing. But never
 >the stars in the nighborhood. And the displacement of this star
 >in it's erratic movement, is usually no more than a few arc
 >seconds or at most, a degree or so. Like the other night. Two or
 >three degrees of arc. The little guys are brave and gettin'
 >braver.

Hi, Jim:

Sounds like autokinetic mortion of the eye muscles. I can see it
in the planetarium, too. Pick out any known star, bright enough
or low in the sky so that there aren't any nearby references and
you'll see it. I have a little experiement in the planetarium
when I turn out all lights and "stars", except for a small
reostat bulb. Within seconds the kids see it "moving". This is
identical to the classic experiment dome with a dim red light in
a darkened room in the 1920's which documented this phenomenon.

Sounds like you are appreciating the beautiful night sky. Keep
looking up.


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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                    Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:57:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 11:14:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Velez


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 20:22:03 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Good Evening, List, all -

 >I hadn't really planned to say anything about this, but what the hell,
 >it's Saturday and the football game is over.

 >>Source: Irondequoit Post, Rochester, N.Y.

 >>http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=2421069&BRD=1891&PAG=461&dep >t_id=
121573&rfi=6

 >>Friday 28 September, 2001

 >>Aliens Among Us

 >>Christine C. Fien/Messenger Post Staff
 >>September 27, 2001

 >>SUNY Brockport Professor Discusses The Alien Abduction Experience

Hello Mr. Randle, hi All,

Kevin writes (out of boredom because there's not much to do in
the mid-west on a Saturday night unless you want to get drunk or
go cow tipping.....)

 >>Nearly one million Americans say they've had an alien abduction
 >>experience.

 >So, where did this number come from? Did the writer make it up,
 >did Dr. Appelle, or have we now gotten away from the 5 million
 >figure that came out of the first roper Poll...

Maybe he used figures from the same "poll" that you and Mr.
Estes got your (published) statistic that almost 50% of
abductees are gay! I asked you the same question, "Where did
this number come from?" when you published your equally
'questionable' statistic.

 >>Hypnosis can create false memories, Appelle said, and abductees
 >>don't go to a hypnotist out of the blue. They go because they
 >>have "missing time" - sometimes hours they can't account for -
 >>or suspect they may have been abducted.

 >Or they have had vivid dreams and friends suggest they see
 >someone, or they have experienced sleep paralysis and aren't
 >sure what happened to them and friends suggest they see
 >someone... Oh, yes, sleep paralysis doesn't count...

For a tough guy who served time in the military you have a real
penchant for going after the 'easy meat'. I'm still waiting for
you to acknowledge that abduction cases involving (waking state)
fully conscious encounters cannot be explained by "sleep
paralysis" or any of the other simplistic explanations that you
are always holding 'out front' like a bar-b-que chef protecting
himself from grease spatter with a cotton apron.

 >>While hypnosis may embellish the story, the core experience is
 >>still there, Appelle said.

 >And in some cases there is no core story as evidenced by those
 >claiming horrific Vietnam combat and which they told under
 >hypnosis with all the proper emotion, only to have their stories
 >exposed as untrue.

So what about the ones that _are_ true Kevin? Or, is it a simple
case of _all_ abductees are lying? That thousands of ordinary
family folk worldwide have suddenly become deranged to the point
where they are collectively telling elaborate lies about contact
with alien beings. And the _same_elaborate lie yet! Giveth us a
break please.

 >>Sleep-paralysis as an explanation to debunk abduction accounts
 >>also falls short, he said. During an occurrence of
 >>sleep-paralysis, people wake up feeling like they can't move,
 >>can't speak, and sometimes sense a disturbing presence in the
 >>room. The problem is, Appelle said, that this theory doesn't
 >>explain highway abductions. Sleep-paralysis experiences also
 >>tend to be very vague, while accounts of alien abductions are
 >>rich in detail, he said.

 >And no one said that sleep paralysis explains all cases of alien
 >abduction, only that it explains some. Couple that to a
 >hypnotist who is poorly trained, and the rich detail can be
 >found.

 >Some sleep paralysis experiences are quite detailed. I'm
 >confused as to why Dr. Appelle would say something like this,
 >unless the writer got part of the quote wrong.

Hmmm, you mean like those guys out in the mid-west that claim
that half of those who report UFO abductions are homosexuals?

 >>Appelle said he is "open-minded" on the subject of abductions.

 >>"I don't, like some people, think that it is inherently
 >>impossible, so I'm willing to entertain the idea that these
 >>experiences are exactly what they seem to be," he said. "It's a
 >>phenomena that does not yet have a documented explanation."

 >Well, he's correct here. There is no documented explanation. But
 >then, we shouldn't reject part of the solution because it
 >doesn't cover every case. Kind of like suggesting that aircraft
 >haven't been misidentified as a UFO because some were really
 >weather balloons. Like all aspects of the UFO phenomena, I don't
 >think there is a single explanation that covers everything.

True. Which also means that if even _one_ abductee out of all
the many thousands reporting are telling the truth; then we're
all in very deep poo-doo. But you keep ignoring that fact in
favor of tackling the 'easily explained' reports. Aiming low,
and only at the weak sisters seems to be your preferred
approach. After you've taken down the weak ones, you can then
surround the healthier, stronger ones and take them down by
sheer force of numbers eh? You're a pip.

Or, maybe your intentions are noble and you seek to eliminate
the easily explained cases so that you can then defend the
strong cases and hold them up as examples of a genuine mystery.

But 'somehow' I doubt the latter.

 >And, I've never understood why we all say that 90% of the UFO
 >sightings are explained in the mundane, but all of the
 >abductions must be alien. Couldn't it be that some are, in fact,
 >explanable in terrestrial terms? Not all, but some?

Could be caused by repeated anal penetration according to your
statistics.

Hey Kevin, if it's so 'boring' on a Saturday night where you
are, so much so that it causes you to 'mess with the abductees
on the UpDates List' for entertainment; you ought to consider
moving here to New York! In spite of the disaster, we have a
rich cultural and entertainment industry that is ever at the
ready to wipe away your boredom.

Regards from the Heart of Humanity, and the center of the
cultural world, New York.


John Velez


            A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
            www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                 johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
   "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."







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   Oct > Oct 1

                   Re: 'Mechanical Alien' Drawings - Karr

From: Nancy Karr <karr@home.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:03:09 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 11:17:57 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Mechanical Alien' Drawings - Karr


Hello Mac,

Thanks for sharing your drawings...

...I thought you might be interested in the two types that I
have run into: ones that I call Barbie and Ken dolls.

They have almost mask like faces and are all built the same in
stature. They are always smiling very broadly no matter what is
going on.

The other type looks like a metal man, it was huge, strong and
had weapons available in it. All you can do is run...

I usually see them set on a target. It's like they come in and
focus on an individual, capture or kill and then return it home.
They very rarely miss their target and can jump through rips in
time which makes for a grand chase.

I've never seen one that actaully looks like a grey.

BTW.. I was wondering if anyone knew of a good, trustworthy
email support group for experiencers?

I've been trying to find one but have not had that much luck.
thanks in advance

Nancy


 >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:16:44 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: 'Mechanical Alien' Drawings
 >To: UfoUpdates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >
 >
 >List,
 >
 >I've read many accounts of "Gray" aliens being robots of some
 >sort, and drew a couple pictures expounding on this idea just
 >for the fun of it (actually I drew 'em a long time ago and just
 >put them online tonight).









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                  Re: Strange Lights - Again! - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:33:40 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 00:29:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Strange Lights - Again! - Mortellaro


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:45:41 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Strange Lights - Again!
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com


 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:58:43 EDT
 >>Subject: Strange Lights - Again!
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>Then it starts moving. Erratically. Just the one star. Those
 >>near it are not moving. Just this one object. OK? So it ain't me
 >>eyes, Dudes and Dudesses. Because there are other stars nearby
 >>not moving. And it moves with or without averted vision. In
 >>fact, there were some occasions when with averted visions, I
 >>would see even dimmer objects doing the same thing. But never
 >>the stars in the nighborhood. And the displacement of this star
 >>in it's erratic movement, is usually no more than a few arc
 >>seconds or at most, a degree or so. Like the other night. Two or
 >>three degrees of arc. The little guys are brave and gettin'
 >>braver.

 >Hi, Jim:

 >Sounds like autokinetic mortion of the eye muscles. I can see it
 >in the planetarium, too. Pick out any known star, bright enough
 >or low in the sky so that there aren't any nearby references and
 >you'll see it. I have a little experiement in the planetarium
 >when I turn out all lights and "stars", except for a small
 >reostat bulb. Within seconds the kids see it "moving". This is
 >identical to the classic experiment dome with a dim red light in
 >a darkened room in the 1920's which documented this phenomenon.

Yeah. I sat in a NASA darkroom at Goddard Spaceflight Center in
Greenbelt, Md. for eons, looking at similacrum of stars,
zillions of stars. Not one of them moved. Wierd, huh? Read on
McTuff.

 >Sounds like you are appreciating the beautiful night sky. Keep
 >looking up.

I've been looking at stars since I was a little Gesundt. Always
had an interest in Astronomy. Taught it at Adelphi years back.
Lectured and gave more time to the glass than you'll ever see in
your mirrors. It _ain't_ autokinetic eye movement. Reference the
reference below.

 >Clear skies,

Read it again, Young Bob. You are not paying attention to
detail. There are references. The nearby stars. Some, right in
the circle of movement of the object. Sheesh. Proves my theory
that some folks don't see what you see but what they want you to
see, so they keep telling you, you see what you don't see but in
reality you see what you do see and you don't see what they want
you see.

See?

Uh, that was autokinetic mouth movement.


Morty

PS: I can prove it wasn't autokinetic eye muscle movement.
     I have no eye muscles! Hah! Too much Grip!









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   Oct > Oct 2

                Re: 'Mechanical Alien' Drawings - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:40:35 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 00:31:25 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Mechanical Alien' Drawings - Mortellaro


 >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:16:44 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: 'Mechanical Alien' Drawings
 >To: UfoUpdates <ufoupdates@home.com>


 >List,

 >I've read many accounts of "Gray" aliens being robots of some
 >sort, and drew a couple pictures expounding on this idea just
 >for the fun of it (actually I drew 'em a long time ago and just
 >put them online tonight).

 >(I'm not an "experiencer" and these _aren't_ drawn from memory.)

 >They can be seen at:

 >http://mactonnies.com/doodles.html

 >--Mac

Dear Mac, List, Errol,

First and foremost, thank you for sharing. I enjoyed your cocka
doodle doos. Seriously. It's fun stuff.

Second, and more important... I have a major observation to
make.

Just when was it that you met my inlaws?


Jim Mortellaro









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                   Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:41:52 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 00:34:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Randle


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 14:05:25 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 20:22:03 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Good Evening, List, all -

 >>I hadn't really planned to say anything about this, but what the hell,
 >>it's Saturday and the football game is over.

 >>>Source: Irondequoit Post, Rochester, N.Y.


 >>http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=2421069&BRD=1891&PAG=461&dep>t_id=1
21573&rfi=6


 >>>Friday 28 September, 2001


 >>>Aliens Among Us

 >>>Christine C. Fien/Messenger Post Staff
 >>>September 27, 2001


 >>>SUNY Brockport Professor Discusses The Alien Abduction Experience

 >>>Nearly one million Americans say they've had an alien abduction
 >>>experience.

 ><snip>

 >>>Hypnosis can create false memories, Appelle said, and abductees
 >>>don't go to a hypnotist out of the blue. They go because they
 >>>have "missing time" - sometimes hours they can't account for -
 >>>or suspect they may have been abducted.

 >>Or they have had vivid dreams and friends suggest they see
 >>someone, or they have experienced sleep paralysis and aren't
 >>sure what happened to them and friends suggest they see
 >>someone... Oh, yes, sleep paralysis doesn't count...


 >Dear Kevin, All, Errol,

 >You are missing a point, Kevin. Vivid dreams are distinguished
 >by most if not all abductees. I've had very vivid dreams.
 >However in my most sincere and accurate memory and knowledge,
 >there is a very significant difference between _any_ dream and
 >the perceived abduction experience. Ask any abductee. This is
 >most true of those of us who have had spontaneous or other
 >recall. There is no doubt of the source of the recall, eh? No
 >Jacobs or Hoppy to blame for planting our seeds.

No, I haven't missed the point. Dr. Appelle had asked for the
ways people arrived at the idea that they had been abducted and
I suggested, based on what Leah Haley had said about they way
she came to the conclusion she had been abducted that her first
recall was in the form of a very vivid dream. That does not mean
that everyone else fell into that category, it just suggests
another way that people enter into the abduction arena.

 >>>While hypnosis may embellish the story, the core experience is
 >>>still there, Appelle said.

 >>And in some cases there is no core story as evidenced by those
 >>claiming horrific Vietnam combat and which they told under
 >>hypnosis with all the proper emotion, only to have their
 >>stories exposed as untrue.

 >One never knows about truth. But you may single out many such
 >stories. None of which impacts the truth of the abduction
 >phenomenon. Each must be treated seperately. Besides, we who
 >perceive ourselves to have had these experiences were largely
 >not serving in Nam. Or had any traumatic experience with which
 >to develope such trauma. In fact, it's the other way around. The
 >experience produces our trauma.

I was suggesting that Dr. Appelle's suggestion that even if
there is hypnotic embellishment that the core experience is true
is not necessarily an accurate statement. I used the example of
those claiming horrific combat in Vietnam only because we have
records that can be checked. If you say you were in Vietnam and
exposed to combat, we can check the accuracy of those
statements. Many of those with the most horrific stories were
not in combat or even in Vietnam.

I could have used Satanic Ritual Abuse as well. These stories
are told under hypnosis with all the "proper" emotions and yet,
when many of the details are checked, they do not corroborate
the "core" belief or core story. I was suggesting here that the
core story might not be there and we need to check, as best we
can, for that core report.

 >>>Sleep-paralysis as an explanation to debunk abduction accounts
 >>>also falls short, he said. During an occurrence of
 >>>sleep-paralysis, people wake up feeling like they can't move,
 >>>can't speak, and sometimes sense a disturbing presence in the
 >>>room. The problem is, Appelle said, that this theory doesn't
 >>>explain highway abductions. Sleep-paralysis experiences also
 >>>tend to be very vague, while accounts of alien abductions are
 >>>rich in detail, he said.

 >>And no one said that sleep paralysis explains all cases of
 >>alien abduction, only that it explains some. Couple that to a
 >>hypnotist who is poorly trained, and the rich detail can be
 >>found.

 >Only too true.

 >>Some sleep paralysis experiences are quite detailed. I'm
 >>confused as to why Dr. Appelle would say something like this,
 >>unless the writer got part of the quote wrong.

 >>>Appelle said he is "open-minded" on the subject of abductions.

 >>>"I don't, like some people, think that it is inherently
 >>>impossible, so I'm willing to entertain the idea that these
 >>>experiences are exactly what they seem to be," he said. "It's a
 >>>phenomena that does not yet have a documented explanation."

 >>Well, he's correct here. There is no documented explanation. But
 >>then, we shouldn't reject part of the solution because it
 >>doesn't cover every case. Kind of like suggesting that aircraft
 >>haven't been misidentified as a UFO because some were really
 >>weather balloons. Like all aspects of the UFO phenomena, I don't
 >>think there is a single explanation that covers everything.

 >>And, I've never understood why we all say that 90% of the UFO
 >>sightings are explained in the mundane, but all of the
 >>abductions must be alien. Couldn't it be that some are, in fact,
 >>explanable in terrestrial terms? Not all, but some?

 >Does this detract from those which are not? This is the heart of
 >research is it not? To make the distinction. Listen, Kevin...
 >I've not the heart to debate with anyone regarding the lameness
 >of so many of the arguments against. Unless you've been there,
 >it's nearly impossible to extrapolate. However I have one very
 >stupid question. It must be very stupid, I can't for the life of
 >me garner an answer.

 >Hasn't anyone used the sort of drugs on people like us, sodium
 >pentathol or any of it's ilk to help determine truth? Shucks, I
 >see it in the movies all the time. Must be truth, eh? I mean,
 >it's on the screen... on the toob.... inn't?

There is a good reason why such an experiment had not been
conducted in wide spread fashion... A licensed medical doctor
would need to be involved to administer the drug. And, the
subject would need to sign an informed consent.

However, the experiment has been conducted and the results were
interesting. Under hypnosis, the subjects suggested reports of
alien abduction that mirror those reports made by others. Under
the influence of the drug there was no accompanying memories of
abduction. The difference here, as I see it, is that under the
hypnosis we believe the subject is in an altered state but can't
really prove it. Under the influence of the drug, we know the
altered state exists.

And for those interested in numbers, the experiment was
conducted with only a few people because of the medical and
legal considerations. This is not something that can be done
lightly and must be monitored by a medical doctor.


KRandle









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                   Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:49:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 00:36:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Sandow


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us
 >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:28:57 -0500

 >I urge all interested listfolk to read Stuart Appelle's paper in
 >JUFOS. It is the finest survey I've ever seen of the relative
 >strengths and weakness of all proposed explanations, mundane and
 >extraordinary, for the abduction phenomenon.  The citation is:

 >"The Abduction Experience: A Critical Evaluation of Theory and
 >Evidence." Journal of UFO Studies (n.s., 6, 1995/1996): 29-78.

 >The issue is available from CUFOS at 2457 West Peterson Avenue,
 >Chicago, Illinois 60659.


I agree. Appelle's paper is still the most important discussion
of the abduction evidence. It's not very comforting either to
believers or skeptics.


Greg Sandow









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                           Leeds Conference Review

From: Anthony Chippendale <anthonyc@ufon.org>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 16:47:10 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 00:46:57 -0400
Subject: Leeds Conference Review


Review of 20th Leeds International UFO Conference
Leeds University - 21 to 23 September 2001
By Anthony Chippendale

Introduction

Every year for the past 20 years UFO Magazine UK has held a UFO
conference in Leeds, England. This year's conference was, in my
opinion, the best yet! It was a total sell-out and the
lecturer's that UFO Magazine editor Graham Birdsall lined up for
us were great! They included Budd Hopkins, Dr John Mack, Nick
Pope, Georgina Bruni and more! It all kicked off at 7pm on the
Friday...

Friday Evening

Although the conference wasn't due to start until 7pm I was
there at bang on 6pm when the doors opened. As soon as I walked
in, I grabbed my first of many bargains that weekend! Sat at a
little desk amongst many piles of books was researcher Alan F
Alford and he was flogging off his personal stock of his books
at only �5 each! Normal selling price for these (they were
hardbacks) is �20 each! I grabbed a copy of each of them, which
he duly signed for me. They were: Gods of the New Millennium,
The Phoenix Solution and When the Gods Came Down. I can't wait
to read them!

In previous years the Friday evening has been dominated by the
showing of video footage of recent UFO sightings, this year,
however, as many people could not attend the Saturday and Sunday
as tickets had sold out, they gave each of the weekend's speaker
fifteen minutes at the lectern to give a short talk about what
their lectures, during the weekend, would be about.

First up were Nick Pope and his abductee friend Brigette Grant.
Now, for as long as I've been attending the Leeds conference
(this was my 4th conference), Brigette has "tagged along" with
Nick, but no one has ever known who she was.... I actually
thought she was his girlfriend! But this weekend we got to know
the truth.... she is an abductee, with a very interesting tale
of a lifetime of experiences with UFOs and the paranormal.

Next up was Dr John Mack, the Harvard psychiatrist who believes
abductions are real, followed by New York researcher Budd
Hopkins. They both give a quick ten-minute overview of what they
were going to be talking about in their lectures the following
day.

After a thirty-minute interval during which I picked up a copy
of the new October 2001 issue of UFO Magazine and a copy of the
double video "What Happened on the Moon?" Georgina Bruni, author
of Rendlesham Forest book "You can't tell the People" gave us a
quick introduction to the new MOD files on Rendlesham Forest,
which she was going to be elaborating on in her lecture.

After Georgina came Mexican researcher Santiago Yturria Garza
who gave us a brief introduction and promised us that during his
Sunday afternoon presentation we would be seeing some amazing
new film footage from Mexico.

Finally, UFO Magazine's own Russel Callaghan showed us some
interesting new UFO footage, which he would be expanding on, on
Sunday.

During the evening Graham Birdsall had one little surprise for
us, from behind the thick black curtain came Canadian Martyn
Stubbs who was instrumental in bringing the "secret NASA
transmissions" to the world. Martyn is very ill with a brain
tumour and received a very warm welcome from the audience.

Saturday

Saturday morning, on arriving at the conference auditorium I
found my second bargain of the weekend! This time, Nick Redfern,
British researcher, had a stall of all his old books and
magazines. He is currently making a permanent move to Texas to
live with his new girlfriend, who may even become his wife. So,
he was flogging off all these old paperback books at only �1
each! I grabbed nine of them.... they are old 1970s books on
Atlantis, Bermuda Triangle and a couple of UFO ones. They are
Classics and have been out of print for decades. It was a great
find! Cheers Nick!

First up after some introductions from Graham Birdsall was a
one-minute silence in memory of the victims of the tragic 11
September terrorist attacks. During the minute they played some
footage of still pictures of the World Trade Centre. It was a
very moving display.

Following the one minute silence they played a short five minute
video called "A Year in Profile" showing a few new UFO clips
that have emerged and reviews of bits of UFO news that have
occurred since the last conference a year ago.

The first speaker of the day, Dr John Mack, came next. Dr Mack
is a psychiatrist at Harvard University and a winner of the much
sought-after "Pulitzer Prize". He was written two books on the
subject of alien abduction titled "Abduction" and "Passport to
the Cosmos". He told us of how when he announced that he
believed that aliens were abducting people; he came under
investigation and close scrutiny from Harvard University. He
also briefly discussed his views on abductions and then took
some questions from the audience:

Q: Are there any similarities between the types of people
abducted?

A: No, they come from all socio-economic groups.

Q: Can we hear of any positive or constructive encounters?

A: Yes, a common experience during abductions is the abductees
been told about how we were destroying the world, pollution etc.
Experiencers would be less negative if the worldview of
abductions wasn't so much negative.

Q: What is your view on "channelled" information?

A: Not everything that is channelled is true and not everything
that is true is channelled.

Following the one-hour luncheon interval, Graham Birdsall
introduced two special visitors who had made the long journey
all the way from S Korea to be with us at the conference!

First up in the afternoon was MOD (Ministry of Defence) employee
and UFO book author Nick Pope and alleged abductee Brigette
Grant. Instead of the usual lecture from the lectern, Nick and
Brigette took a seat on some armchairs and Nick conducted a
sort-of "interview" of Brigette, during which she recounted the
various paranormal experiences that she experienced while she
was growing up including several ghost and "fairy" sightings.
These paranormal experiences culminated with an impressive UFO
sightings and abduction in 1993 in Los Angeles, California,
where she was living at the time, although she now lives in
England.

Immediately following Nick and Brigette, Graham Birdsall, for
the benefit of those who were absent on the Friday night, once
again brought Martyn Stubbs out from behind the curtain! The
audience showed their appreciation for his attendence with a
massive ovation of applause.

Following that it was the turn of Rendlesham Forest investigator
and author of Rendlesham book "You can't tell the People",
Georgina Bruni. Georgina's lecture cantered on a review of some
new evidence, which has recently come to light, including the
release of new MOD documents about the incident. These new
documents are stamped "S/R 2025" which means they were not
scheduled to be reviewed again until the year 2025. This
indicates that the documents were recently given an early review
and release by someone within the UK government or MOD. She also
revealed that there are now five new written statements by USAF
personnel confirming that the incident did occur as reported.
These new witnesses confirm that they saw alien "humanoids"
inside the craft, which allegedly landed in Rendlesham Forest.
Georgina also announced that following extensive research she
has discovered that UFOs landed in the forest in the late 1800s
and even in the 1600s!! She is currently researching this for
more information.

The last speaker of the day was New York abduction researcher
Budd Hopkins. His presentation centred on a review of the 1989
Linda Cortile abduction. He showed us some photographs and
x-rays of an object that was discovered in her nose. He also
said that he is in contact with some of the secret service
officers who allegedly witnessed Linda being floated out of her
apartment window.

Sunday

First up on Sunday morning was the executive director of NARCAP
(National Aviation Reporting Center on Anomalous Phenomena). His
presentation focused on the risk posed to aircraft by UAPs
(Unidentified Aerial Phenomena). Unfortunately, a lot of his
presentation, which was based on a slide show, was a run-down of
some statistics relating to UAP sightings and near air misses.
He made the important point of "Primary issue should be aviation
safety, not the probability of occurrence". He also told us of
how there have been some sightings of UAPs "orbiting" aircraft!
Which is very intriguing!

Following on from Ted Roe, he took a seat on the armchairs along
with former British Airways pilot Graham Shepherd and pilot
Malcolm Smith along with friend/researcher David Cayton. They
took several questions from the audience and they also discussed
the recent World Trade Center disaster. Graham Shepherd made the
important statement "There is no way to prevent a catastrophic
event from occurring on an aircraft event." and "All the new
security measures are purely cosmetic.". Private pilot Malcolm
Smith briefly told us of his 1997 sighting which involved a
large "shadow" which appeared over his aircraft.

Following the luncheon interval, UFO Magazine editor and
conference organiser Graham Birdsall took to the lectern and
gave a presentation entitled "Origins". Although his
presentation, which was about the links between SETI and the
Vatican and their researcher into Ufology, was interesting,
there was little new information, a lot of it was "old stuff"
that he has already spoken about in the magazine and at previous
conferences. Nevertheless, it was interesting stuff and it was
nice to hear it all put together in a nice presentation. He also
made the statement that he believes we have had technological
"help along the way" from an ET source.

Straight after Graham came UFO Magazine�s website manager and
film specialist Russel Callaghan who showed us some impressive
film footage of UFOs around England. He also discussed the claim
made in the UK press earlier this year that a woman had been
paid �20,000 for some UFO footage, he dismisses it as "crap"!
One interesting piece of footage was shot from a police
helicopter in Brighton and it shows a cylindrical object flying
near the helicopter, it was certainly an impressive piece of
footage which once again affirms my view that ET is visiting us!

Graham and Russell then took a seat on the armchairs with Martyn
Stubbs who came out from behind the curtain for a chat with us.
He told of how he had been making more progress with research
into the "secret NASA transmissions" and he also told of how
this could be his last visit to the UK due to the seriousness of
his malignant brain tumour. I have to say that I could tell that
he was ill.

The final speaker of the day and of the conference was Mexican
researcher Santiago Yturria Garza who I thought was a great
guy!! His presentation was basically an hour-long movie of UFO
footage/pictures, which he cleverly narrated over. The footage
included classic Mexican footage of swarms of UFOs including
some spheres, but the most interesting was that of "humanoids"
in the air. The footage wasn't 100% clear but you could easily
make out these strange humanoid figures just "floating" in the
sky. I won't say anymore about it because I have my doubts about
its authenticity and I don't want to comment on it!!

Conclusion

In conclusion.... I would just like to say a big thank you to
Graham Birdsall and his team at UFO Magazine (UK) for putting
together a great conference. This year's conference was the best
so far with good audience participation and some very
interesting lectures and topics discussed.

Anthony Chippendale
anthonyc@ufon.org

- Anthony Chippendale
  anthonyc@ufon.org
  http://www.ufon.org.uk
  ICQ: 48472589

When you are true to yourself and open your heart and mind, the
possibilites are endless.







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             Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:24:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 01:04:39 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Clark


 >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:22:24 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...


 >>Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 08:58:40 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...


John,

 >>I have written many a UFO article, some have even been
 >>published. I have also written a few Sci-Fi (sorry Kevin we
 >>Brits prefer that term) stories which have never been published.

 >This particular 'Brit' very strongly dislikes both "Sci-Fi" and
 >"Brit". As the latter began as a derogatory term used by
 >republicans in Northern Ireland I regard as an offensive racial
 >epithet.

In deference to you, and of course speaking (well, actually
typing) strictly for myself and not for Sean, I will not use
"Brit" in any further posting.

But really, it should be no more offensive than "Yank" for
American (which doesn't offend any American of my acquaintance,
though I know it began as a term of ridicule used by British
troops during the, er, misunderstanding between our two
societies in the latter 18th Century), and it certainly is not a
"racial" epithet, Churchillian rhetorical flourishes about the
British "race" aside.

I suppose I should add that I speak -- er, type -- as a lifelong
Anglophile.

Jerry Clark









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                    On Much Maligned Fresh Pairs of Dimes

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 13:08:55 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 01:08:21 -0400
Subject: On Much Maligned Fresh Pairs of Dimes


Take me as I am or let me go. It's a song. Dylan sang it
although I don't know if he writ it. Seems to me that people as
a rule, don't do that. Most especially when it comes to such
impossible beliefs, beliefs which decimate the "accepted"
paradigm(s). Take as an example the germ. The lowly germ. In
1850 you really couldn't see the little sucker. But there was
evidence of such a creature. A bug. Those who embraced this
theory as being fact were literally peed on by their peers.

Another example. Take the issue of Alien Abduction. Laugh, laugh
laugh. Up your sleeve, down your textbook, etc. I hope Lara
doesn't mind my repeating this here, but the words ring true to
me. She writes:

QUOTING:

"Hello,

Yesterday I sent a letter to CSICOP which spells a horrifying
end to public opinion on so - called "expert" fundamentalist
sceptics, who want us to believe that all things have been
discovered and that the impossible can be made possible...

I told them that after sixty years, it was too late for the
American Scientific Community to prevent negative public
opinion, and that as a result, scientists who will in the future
come to deny the UFO - coverup, the Holocaust and simular crimes
against humanity, may be expelled from respected science -
research organizations....

Knowing that I may sound too judgemental, it is a declaration of
war against any person on the planet who cannot disprove
subjects that so far have been claimed easy to be disproven by
some other people, the majority of whom suffer from self -
deception, grandoise ideas, and the like...

We want to believe that we are alone, but the sorry fact, is
that this belief is generally considered no longer neccesary.
Today, about 10 years ago a UFO book was published which said
that for everuY UFO sceptic there are at least 10 UFO -
believers..

Some of the things mentioned above were not said directly to
CSICOP, but put in the form of a hidden message to the American
scientific community, that it has lost in the UFO - debate....

Please put this forward on everybody on your lists.....

I can put you responses from CSICOP in the future....

matrixs@mi.is"

END QUOTE

My, my. Not too bad, Gutsy Lady. Well, I said you was high
classed. And that was not a lie. (Sorry Bob, Elvis had it this
time). Young Bob, take note. Disregard your (possible) disregard
for the lady, and put her words in your mind. What's left of it
after alien bashing so long you likely wore out more cells than
I have with my Gripple. This attitude of disbelief, of unbelief
to something unusual, something new, counter to extant pairs of
dimes - has been ongoing since men began thinking.

Happens every time some dimbulb thinks up something which is
impossible to apply to the prevailing winds of hot paradigm air.
Make that "stale" paradigm air. "Can't happen... impossible...
no proof... where's the beef?..... Show me a rudder from one a
them saucer thingies."

Eventually, ultimately, those old beliefs did not prevail. And
most of us who perceive what we do, will. Whatever the cause,
something is happening. It's just that we don't really know what
it is. I don't. And dammit... neither do ANY of you!

Perhaps the problem is that we, the abductees, say it as if it
were fact that we've been probed up our whatsis's and beamed
aboard some flying gizmoid in the sky. Maybe we should just
say... uh ... nah... never mind. That won't float needer. Truth
is, I don't know what happens to me. It's just that what I
perceive happens is so real, fraught with the emoticons of my
very being, the physical sensations, the terror and the post
trauma effects, that to believe anything but what I perceive is
more insane than some of you guys think I am to believe it.

I know that I am going to draw lots of fire on this, on and off
List, but I don't care. Never did care much for what people
think or I would not have come out of my closet. You know, it
may have been kinda lonely in there, but it was nice and comfy.
Safe. Yeah.

I digress. I am inclined to study that portion of this
phenomenon, which may be the guilty party. The spiritual
element. That this phenom may be related to some spiritual
paradigm, is beginning to sound more interesting. Ghosts and
goblins? Maybe. I read in the NY Times (so it MUST be so) that
in the City of New York, there have been numerous cases of
people being inhabited by bad spirits. Too true. Only the
spirits turned out _NOT_ to be evil spirits, but the spirits of
the dead.

Sounds intersesting.

But then, so does a shot of DandyGrabrandy. Our newest creation.
Freshly made Brandy from the vines of wines, stepped on by
inebriants from the streets of Canal, critters and all. In fact,
much like that Mexican brew with the Tequilla worm,
DandyGrabrandy has all of _our_ critters in colliodal
suspension. Like milk. Never clear, never aged. Instant
inebriatation. Mouton LaFeet Du Rothchild, eat your hearts out.


Jim Mortellaro









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                    Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Young

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 15:39:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 01:10:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Young


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us
 >Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 14:13:24 +0000

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:25:50 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 20:22:03 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >>>But then, we shouldn't reject part of the solution because it
 >>>doesn't cover every case. Kind of like suggesting that aircraft
 >>>haven't been misidentified as a UFO because some were really
 >>>weather balloons. Like all aspects of the UFO phenomena, I don't
 >>>think there is a single explanation that covers everything.

 >>>And, I've never understood why we all say that 90% of the UFO
 >>>sightings are explained in the mundane, but all of the
 >>>abductions must be alien. Couldn't it be that some are, in fact,
 >>>explanable in terrestrial terms? Not all, but some?

 >>I'm always doubtfull when somebody claims a simple explanation.

 > You mean simple explanations like "swamp gas," "ball lightning,"
 >"fireballs?"

Dick:

No, I probably could have said "Singular Explanations", which in
the case of this human phenomenon are much less likely that
Multiple Explanations. Or do you think that each and every
flying saucer report since 1947 has been caused by the Romulans?


Clear skies,

Bob Young









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                     Re: Strange Lights - Again! - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 12:45:45 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 01:13:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Strange Lights - Again! - Hatch


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:45:41 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Strange Lights - Again!
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:58:43 EDT
 >>Subject: Strange Lights - Again!
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>Then it starts moving. Erratically. Just the one star. Those
 >>near it are not moving. Just this one object. OK? So it ain't me
 >>eyes, Dudes and Dudesses. Because there are other stars nearby
 >>not moving. And it moves with or without averted vision. In
 >>fact, there were some occasions when with averted visions, I
 >>would see even dimmer objects doing the same thing. But never
 >>the stars in the nighborhood. And the displacement of this star
 >>in it's erratic movement, is usually no more than a few arc
 >>seconds or at most, a degree or so. Like the other night. Two or
 >>three degrees of arc. The little guys are brave and gettin'
 >>braver.

 >Hi, Jim:

 >Sounds like autokinetic mortion of the eye muscles. I can see it
 >in the planetarium, too. Pick out any known star, bright enough
 >or low in the sky so that there aren't any nearby references and
 >you'll see it. I have a little experiement in the planetarium
 >when I turn out all lights and "stars", except for a small
 >reostat bulb. Within seconds the kids see it "moving". This is
 >identical to the classic experiment dome with a dim red light in
 >a darkened room in the 1920's which documented this phenomenon.

 >Sounds like you are appreciating the beautiful night sky. Keep
 >looking up.

 >Clear skies,

 >Bob Young


Uh, Bob?

Jim was careful to note that nearby stars _did_ stay put while
the dim lite in question moved. There could be any number of
mundane explanations, but over a period of say one hour, we
could safely rule out real stars, planets, even comets. If it
moved to and fro or "maneuvered", even meteors fall out of the
equation.

I would think in terms of aircraft first, and go from there.
This is another reason I don't catalog nite-lite sightings any
more.



Best

- Larry Hatch









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              Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 17:11:23 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 01:24:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:39:05 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center?
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:06:58 -0600
 >>Subject: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center?
 >>From: Lan Fleming <LanFleming@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>

 ><snip>

 >>Drudge says there were no witness reports of any military aircraft
 >>at the time, although maybe even a jet flying low at Mach 5 could
 >>go unnoticed in the chaos and terror.
 >
 >There was no chaos and terror prior to the approach of this
 >hypothetical "Mach 5" military jet. In fact, maybe there wasn't
 >any airliner crashes at all, but tens of thousands of windows
 >just broken by the sound.

 ><snip>

 >>The provenance of this footage appears to be well established.

 ><snip>

 >>the video cllip originally was posted by Fox News at:

 >>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34238,00.html

 >This validates it? Oh, Lordy


Hi Lan,

Without knowing which news clip contained the footage of the two
anomalies on the tape it would be hard to find it. The actual
site is at:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34238,00.html

Then go to:

Videos
Attack
and:
9/11/01: First Plane Hits World Trade Center Tower

And for Bob,

Validates what?

Don









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                   Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 17:45:13 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 01:27:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Randle


 >Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:57:16 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 20:22:03 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Good Evening, List, all -

 >>I hadn't really planned to say anything about this, but what the hell,
 >>it's Saturday and the football game is over.

 >>>Source: Irondequoit Post, Rochester, N.Y.

 >>>http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=2421069&BRD=1891&PAG=461&dep
 >>>t_id=121573&rfi=6

 >>>Friday 28 September, 2001

 >>>Aliens Among Us

 >>>Christine C. Fien/Messenger Post Staff
 >>>September 27, 2001

 >.>SUNY Brockport Professor Discusses The Alien Abduction Experience

 >Hello Mr. Randle, hi All,

 >Kevin writes (out of boredom because there's not much to do in
 >the mid-west on a Saturday night unless you want to get drunk or
 >go cow tipping.....)

Hello John, List, all -

Actually, they go cow tipping farther west. No one really
suggested boredom here, I was merely providing a time context,
but once again, it proves that we have no sense of humor.

 >>>Nearly one million Americans say they've had an alien abduction
 >>>experience.

 >>So, where did this number come from? Did the writer make it up,
 >>did Dr. Appelle, or have we now gotten away from the 5 million
 >>figure that came out of the first roper Poll...

 >Maybe he used figures from the same "poll" that you and Mr.
 >Estes got your (published) statistic that almost 50% of
 >abductees are gay! I asked you the same question, "Where did
 >this number come from?" when you published your equally
 >'questionable' statistic.

Actually, I have published the information about our statistical
analysis in The Anomalist, No. 9, Winter 2000/01. We interviewed
more than 500 people and randomly selected 350 of those reports.
The number was further reduced because of a lack of all data so
that our analysis was based on 316 such reports.

We found an over representation of homosexuals in this abductee
population and realized that this was much higher than it should
have been. Depending on the study cited, between 2 and 10
percent of the general population describes itself as gay. Our
sample found them represented between 6 and 30 times higher than
they should have been. We thought it important to report this
statistic.

We also suggest that other traits that are not readily visible
such as political party affiliation, right or left- handedness,
college education, blood type be examined to find out if any of
these populations are over or under represented. These might
provide some clues about alien abduction.

When we asked John Mack about this (yes, we interviewed him on
video tape, contrary to popular belief) he said that he imagined
gays would be represented the same as in the general population,
which means, he never asked the question.

 >>>Hypnosis can create false memories, Appelle said, and abductees
 >>>don't go to a hypnotist out of the blue. They go because they
 >>>have "missing time" - sometimes hours they can't account for -
 >>>or suspect they may have been abducted.

 >>Or they have had vivid dreams and friends suggest they see
 >>someone, or they have experienced sleep paralysis and aren't
 >>sure what happened to them and friends suggest they see
 >>someone... Oh, yes, sleep paralysis doesn't count...

 >For a tough guy who served time in the military you have a real
 >penchant for going after the 'easy meat'. I'm still waiting for
 >you to acknowledge that abduction cases involving (waking state)
 >fully conscious encounters cannot be explained by "sleep
 >paralysis" or any of the other simplistic explanations that you
 >are always holding 'out front' like a bar-b-que chef protecting
 >himself from grease spatter with a cotton apron.

Well, looking at Stuart Appelle's article, that appears on your
web site. I notice that Dr. Appelle wrote, "Both sleep paralysis
and hypnagogic/hypnopompic hallucinations occur in normal people
[was that really the way he wanted to phrase that?] (Fukada,
1994; Roth, 1978 [sleep researchers who have published articles
in psychological journals]), but they may also be symptomatic
(in some cases the only overt symptom; Roth, 1978) of a sleep
disorder called narcolepsy. A narcoleptic attack can occur
during normal daytime activities or even while driving. During a
narcoleptic attack ‘a person many continue behavior associated
with wakeful consciousness but later have no memory for what he
did. The episodes can last hours' (Moorcraft, 1989, p. 262).
This aspect of narcolepsy is reminiscent of missing time in
abduction experiences."

Seems that he's suggesting a way that those in a waking state
can experience "sleep paralysis..." The question that needs to
be answered is "How many abductees are narcoleptics and is there
a correlation here?" If I remember the statistics right, .02
percent of the population has been diagnosed as narcolpetic, but
that would reflect only those cases in which narcolepsy would be
a noticeable and debilitating disease. Mild cases probably
wouldn't be reported at all.

Yes, at the end, Dr. Appelle wrote, "Despite the appeals of
parsimony and analogy, as yet there have been no direct tests of
a linkage between sleep anomalies and abduction experiences."

I think some of those linkages do exist, but too often they are
in the form of anecdotal testimony (which in and of itself does
not rule them out), but this is a larger question.

 >>>While hypnosis may embellish the story, the core experience is
 >>>still there, Appelle said.

 >>And in some cases there is no core story as evidenced by those
 >>claiming horrific Vietnam combat and which they told under
 >>hypnosis with all the proper emotion, only to have their stories
 >>exposed as untrue.

 >So what about the ones that _are_ true Kevin? Or, is it a simple
 >case of _all_ abductees are lying? That thousands of ordinary
 >family folk worldwide have suddenly become deranged to the point
 >where they are collectively telling elaborate lies about contact
 >with alien beings. And the _same_elaborate lie yet! Giveth us a
 >break please.

Never said that they were lying. Always said that the majority
are sincere people reporting as accurately as they can
experiences they remember. Merely am pointing out that this idea
that the core experiences are real, even though embellished
under hypnosis is not an accurate statement as demonstrated by
these tales of horrific combat. I'm challenging, not the
experiences of the abductees, but the statement about core
beliefs and core memories.

 >>>Sleep-paralysis as an explanation to debunk abduction accounts
 >>>also falls short, he said. During an occurrence of
 >>>sleep-paralysis, people wake up feeling like they can't move,
 >>>can't speak, and sometimes sense a disturbing presence in the
 >>>room. The problem is, Appelle said, that this theory doesn't
 >>>explain highway abductions. Sleep-paralysis experiences also
 >>>tend to be very vague, while accounts of alien abductions are
 >>>rich in detail, he said.

 >>And no one said that sleep paralysis explains all cases of alien
 >>abduction, only that it explains some. Couple that to a
 >>hypnotist who is poorly trained, and the rich detail can be
 >>found.

 >>Some sleep paralysis experiences are quite detailed. I'm
 >>confused as to why Dr. Appelle would say something like this,
 >>unless the writer got part of the quote wrong.

 >Hmmm, you mean like those guys out in the mid-west that claim
 >that half of those who report UFO abductions are homosexuals?

Not at all. And all we said was that our research, in our
sample, revealed a statistic that we thought deserved further
attention.

And I'm sure that both Russ Estes and Bill Cone, who live in
California, would be quick to point out they live in the west.

 >>>Appelle said he is "open-minded" on the subject of abductions.

 >>>"I don't, like some people, think that it is inherently
 >>>impossible, so I'm willing to entertain the idea that these
 >>>experiences are exactly what they seem to be," he said. "It's a
 >>>phenomena that does not yet have a documented explanation."

 >>Well, he's correct here. There is no documented explanation. But
 >>then, we shouldn't reject part of the solution because it
 >>doesn't cover every case. Kind of like suggesting that aircraft
 >>haven't been misidentified as a UFO because some were really
 >>weather balloons. Like all aspects of the UFO phenomena, I don't
 >>think there is a single explanation that covers everything.

 >True. Which also means that if even _one_ abductee out of all
 >the many thousands reporting are telling the truth; then we're
 >all in very deep poo-doo. But you keep ignoring that fact in
 >favor of tackling the 'easily explained' reports. Aiming low,
 >and only at the weak sisters seems to be your preferred
 >approach. After you've taken down the weak ones, you can then
 >surround the healthier, stronger ones and take them down by
 >sheer force of numbers eh? You're a pip.

I would have thought that the Pat Roach case would meet your
high standards. Here is a case that I believe can be explained
in the mundane by sleep paralysis, poor investigative technique
(for which I have to take some of the lumps) and the improper
use of hypnotic regression. I thought, in our book, we took on
some of those stronger cases.

 >Or, maybe your intentions are noble and you seek to eliminate
 >the easily explained cases so that you can then defend the
 >strong cases and hold them up as examples of a genuine mystery.

 >But 'somehow' I doubt the latter.

 >>And, I've never understood why we all say that 90% of the UFO
 >>sightings are explained in the mundane, but all of the
 >>abductions must be alien. Couldn't it be that some are, in fact,
 >>explainable in terrestrial terms? Not all, but some?

 >Could be caused by repeated anal penetration according to your
 >statistics.

Could be that some don't want to look at all the data.

 >Hey Kevin, if it's so 'boring' on a Saturday night where you
 >are, so much so that it causes you to 'mess with the abductees
 >on the UpDates List' for entertainment; you ought to consider
 >moving here to New York! In spite of the disaster, we have a
 >rich cultural and entertainment industry that is ever at the
 >ready to wipe away your boredom.

Never said that I was bored, nor that I was going to mess with
the abductees. I just wanted to add a different voice to Dr.
Appelle's statements reported on the UpDates List.

And, in spite of what you think, there is a rich cultural and
entertainment industry here in Iowa that includes most of what
you see in New York. True, the Broadway shows are at Hancher for
only a couple of weeks rather than months, and true we're
limited to college football rather than pro, but we also talk in
terms of a murder rate for the state for the year, rather than
the city for the weekend. And even if we can't get out of the
house, we can be treated to the foul mouthed comics on HBO (who
film their specials in New York), or see Breakfast with the Arts
on A&E, and we have libraries, and art museums, and even river
boat gambling.

 >Regards from the Heart of Humanity, and the center of the
 >cultural world, New York.


 >John Velez

And regards from the bread basket of the world and the center of
the United States, Iowa (though the actual, physical center is
in Kansas).


KRandle









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                  Re: 'Mechanical Alien' Drawings - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 17:05:17 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 01:41:02 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Mechanical Alien' Drawings - Tonnies


 >From: Nancy Karr <karr@home.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: 'Mechanical Alien' Drawings
 >Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:03:09 -0700

 >Hello Mac,

 >Thanks for sharing your drawings...

 >...I thought you might be interested in the two types that I
 >have run into: ones that I call Barbie and Ken dolls.

 >They have almost mask like faces and are all built the same in
 >stature. They are always smiling very broadly no matter what is
 >going on.

<snip>

Sounds like the people I see at Starbucks!

 >BTW.. I was wondering if anyone knew of a good, trustworthy
 >email support group for experiencers?

Not having had any "abduction" experiences, I hesitate to
recommend support groups of any kind that might taint your own
recall. (Posting speculative alien drawings on a UFO list is
more science fiction than enything else; I made sure not to
qualify them as forensic portraits!)

John Velez (a frequent poster of this list) would be my personal
choice if I happened to get snatched by something I didn't
understand and wanted a sympathetic ear.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 816-561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
  http://mactonnies.com










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              Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -

From: Lan Fleming <LanFleming@houston.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 19:27:44 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 01:42:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:39:05 EDT
 >Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 11:03:20 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -

 >>Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:06:58 -0600
 >>Subject: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center?
 >>From: Lan Fleming <LanFleming@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>

 ><snip>

 >>Drudge says there were no witness reports of any military aircraft
 >>at the time, although maybe even a jet flying low at Mach 5 could
 >>go unnoticed in the chaos and terror.

 >There was no chaos and terror prior to the approach of this
 >hypothetical "Mach 5" military jet. In fact, maybe there wasn't
 >any airliner crashes at all, but tens of thousands of windows
 >just broken by the sound.


Well, thanks for your - um - thoughts. But I was kind of hoping
to hear from someone who could say something that made sense.

BTW: There are apparently very few military aircraft that can
reach Mach 5.










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              Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 21:53:49 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 01:44:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -


 >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:06:58 -0600
 >Subject: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center?
 >From: Lan Fleming <LanFleming@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >The Drudge Report web site shows frames from a video reportedly
 >taken 10 seconds after the second tower of the World Trade
 >Center was struck on 9/11. It shows a dark object streaking
 >downward at a shallow angle from the first tower, starting near
 >the level of the impact. The frame sequence is at:>

 >http://www.drudgereport.com/flash91.htm

<snip>

 >The provenance of this footage appears to be well established.
 >It was taken by a news organization, not amateurs. The video
 >clip originally was posted by Fox News at:

 >http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34238,00.html

 >I haven't been able to get my browser to display it properly,
 >though.

 >This may be something that one of the experts on the list (Bruce
 >Maccabee?) should take a closer look at.


I did look. Would need better copy and video characteristics
(camera data) etc. to properly evaluate. Might be an object
propelled by explosion.








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              Cydonian Imperative: 10-2-01 The Face on Mars and

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 22:08:10 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 01:47:50 -0400
Subject: Cydonian Imperative: 10-2-01 The Face on Mars and

The Cydonian Imperative
10-2-01

Face on Mars Conforms to Mathematically "Perfect"
Visage

by Mac Tonnies

Illustrations and links:

http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

The Discovery Channel has produced a fascinating science news
piece suggesting that an archetypal human face is "wetwired"
into our brains, and that a given face's beauty (and hence its
desirability) can be encoded using the Golden Ratio. The Golden
Ratio is a mathematical device well-known for its applications
in ancient architecture.

Former plastic surgeon Dr. Stephen Marquerdt has generated a
'wireframe-like' mask to illustrate the 'perfect' human face. In
the graphic below, Chris Joseph has superimposed the Golden
Ratio-derived face on the Face on Mars, using the Face's right
"eyeball" as a reference point. As can be seen, there are
several intriguing correlations that suggest that the Face, far
from being a randomly eroded mesa, is in fact a deliberately
sculpted humanoid visage.

[image]

Joseph's superimposition is a satisfactory confirmation of the
rigorous aesthetic analysis of the Face conducted by James
Channon twenty years ago, using Viking imagery. Working with the
existing imagery of the time, Channon concluded that the Mars
face was most likely artificial, based on properties such as
proportion, expression and supposed cultural location.

The Face's apparent hominid/feline duality poses interesting
hurdles for the straight-forward approach used by Joseph. Dr.
Mark Carlotto, who pioneered the use of computer analysis for
study of the Cydonia enigmas, will soon have an authoritative
paper online addressing the first (and only) high-resolution
full-frontal overhead photo of the Face.

-end-









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                 Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 01:08:48 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 01:53:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Mortellaro


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:41:52 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 14:05:25 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 20:22:03 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>Good Evening, List, all -

 >>>I hadn't really planned to say anything about this, but what the hell,
 >>>it's Saturday and the football game is over.

 >>>>Source: Irondequoit Post, Rochester, N.Y.

 >>>>http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=2421069&BRD=1891&PAG=461&dep>t_id
=121573&rfi=6


 >>>>Friday 28 September, 2001


 >>>>Aliens Among Us

 >>>>Christine C. Fien/Messenger Post Staff
 >>>>September 27, 2001


 >>>>SUNY Brockport Professor Discusses The Alien Abduction Experience

 >>>>Nearly one million Americans say they've had an alien abduction
 >>>>experience.

 >><snip>

 >>>>Hypnosis can create false memories, Appelle said, and abductees
 >>>>don't go to a hypnotist out of the blue. They go because they
 >>>>have "missing time" - sometimes hours they can't account for -
 >>>>or suspect they may have been abducted.

 >>>Or they have had vivid dreams and friends suggest they see
 >>>someone, or they have experienced sleep paralysis and aren't
 >>>sure what happened to them and friends suggest they see
 >>>someone... Oh, yes, sleep paralysis doesn't count...


 >>Dear Kevin, All, Errol,

 >>You are missing a point, Kevin. Vivid dreams are distinguished
 >>by most if not all abductees. I've had very vivid dreams.
 >>However in my most sincere and accurate memory and knowledge,
 >>there is a very significant difference between _any_ dream and
 >>the perceived abduction experience. Ask any abductee. This is
 >>most true of those of us who have had spontaneous or other
 >>recall. There is no doubt of the source of the recall, eh? No
 >>Jacobs or Hoppy to blame for planting our seeds.

 >No, I haven't missed the point. Dr. Appelle had asked for the
 >ways people arrived at the idea that they had been abducted and
 >I suggested, based on what Leah Haley had said about they way
 >she came to the conclusion she had been abducted that her first
 >recall was in the form of a very vivid dream. That does not mean
 >that everyone else fell into that category, it just suggests
 >another way that people enter into the abduction arena.

A good point. How do people come up with the idea that they've
been abducted... some from hypnosis... some from recall. I fit
into the latter category. Recall. It was a tough decision to
come to. I mean to come to the conclusion that I had been
abducted. Taken. Let me explain the degree of difficulty.

See, I was in bed. I was in this solid blue light. I was not in
bed. I was in this hospital which was over my house. Funny place
for a hospital, eh? Yeah, it sure was tough for me to conclude
some one or some things (little doctors) took me out of my bed.
Whilst attempting to scream bloody murder to awaken my mommy and
daddy, between whom I was placed in order not to be taken. (It
happend before many times).

Yeah. It sure was a tough call. (sigh) But someone had to figger
it out. Guess it was me.

 >>>While hypnosis may embellish the story, the core experience is
 >>>still there, Appelle said.

 >>And in some cases there is no core story as evidenced by those
 >>claiming horrific Vietnam combat and which they told under
 >>hypnosis with all the proper emotion, only to have their
 >>stories exposed as untrue.

 >One never knows about truth. But you may single out many such
 >stories. None of which impacts the truth of the abduction
 >phenomenon. Each must be treated seperately. Besides, we who
 >perceive ourselves to have had these experiences were largely
 >not serving in Nam. Or had any traumatic experience with which
 >to develope such trauma. In fact, it's the other way around. The
 >experience produces our trauma.

 >I was suggesting that Dr. Appelle's suggestion that even if
 >there is hypnotic embellishment that the core experience is true
 >is not necessarily an accurate statement. I used the example of
 >those claiming horrific combat in Vietnam only because we have
 >records that can be checked. If you say you were in Vietnam and
 >exposed to combat, we can check the accuracy of those
 >statements. Many of those with the most horrific stories were
 >not in combat or even in Vietnam.

True there are no records of me or others who suffer a type of
post traumatic stress disorder, with further embellishments such
as physical illnesses which are real, and often shared by
perceived abductees. So much so that statistically, the numbers
point to further commonality than merely the post trauma.

 >I could have used Satanic Ritual Abuse as well. These stories
 >are told under hypnosis with all the "proper" emotions and yet,
 >when many of the details are checked, they do not corroborate
 >the "core" belief or core story. I was suggesting here that the
 >core story might not be there and we need to check, as best we
 >can, for that core report.

Perhaps the "core" report should be the acceptance of the
experiencers' story. After all the reports, the years of such
happening, the commonality of experiences and shared illnesses,
many sufferers of which never clearly knew of the others'
edxperiences, should be the core report. Anechdotal or
otherwise, the data keeps adding up in favor of the experiencer.
With respect.

 >>>Sleep-paralysis as an explanation to debunk abduction accounts
 >>>also falls short, he said. During an occurrence of
 >>>sleep-paralysis, people wake up feeling like they can't move,
 >>>can't speak, and sometimes sense a disturbing presence in the
 >>>room. The problem is, Appelle said, that this theory doesn't
 >>>explain highway abductions. Sleep-paralysis experiences also
 >>>tend to be very vague, while accounts of alien abductions are
 >>>rich in detail, he said.

 >>And no one said that sleep paralysis explains all cases of
 >>alien abduction, only that it explains some. Couple that to a
 >>hypnotist who is poorly trained, and the rich detail can be
 >>found.

 >Only too true.

 >>Some sleep paralysis experiences are quite detailed. I'm
 >>confused as to why Dr. Appelle would say something like this,
 >>unless the writer got part of the quote wrong.

 >>>Appelle said he is "open-minded" on the subject of abductions.

 >>>"I don't, like some people, think that it is inherently
 >>>impossible, so I'm willing to entertain the idea that these
 >>>experiences are exactly what they seem to be," he said. "It's a
 >>>phenomena that does not yet have a documented explanation."

 >>Well, he's correct here. There is no documented explanation. But
 >>then, we shouldn't reject part of the solution because it
 >>doesn't cover every case. Kind of like suggesting that aircraft
 >>haven't been misidentified as a UFO because some were really
 >>weather balloons. Like all aspects of the UFO phenomena, I don't
 >>think there is a single explanation that covers everything.

 >>And, I've never understood why we all say that 90% of the UFO
 >>sightings are explained in the mundane, but all of the
 >>abductions must be alien. Couldn't it be that some are, in fact,
 >>explanable in terrestrial terms? Not all, but some?

 >Does this detract from those which are not? This is the heart of
 >research is it not? To make the distinction. Listen, Kevin...
 >I've not the heart to debate with anyone regarding the lameness
 >of so many of the arguments against. Unless you've been there,
 >it's nearly impossible to extrapolate. However I have one very
 >stupid question. It must be very stupid, I can't for the life of
 >me garner an answer.

 >Hasn't anyone used the sort of drugs on people like us, sodium
 >pentathol or any of it's ilk to help determine truth? Shucks, I
 >see it in the movies all the time. Must be truth, eh? I mean,
 >it's on the screen... on the toob.... inn't?

 >There is a good reason why such an experiment had not been
 >conducted in wide spread fashion... A licensed medical doctor
 >would need to be involved to administer the drug. And, the
 >subject would need to sign an informed consent.

So? I volunteer. Any other takers?

 >However, the experiment has been conducted and the results were
 >interesting. Under hypnosis, the subjects suggested reports of
 >alien abduction that mirror those reports made by others. Under
 >the influence of the drug there was no accompanying memories of
 >abduction. The difference here, as I see it, is that under the
 >hypnosis we believe the subject is in an altered state but can't
 >really prove it. Under the influence of the drug, we know the
 >altered state exists.

 >And for those interested in numbers, the experiment was
 >conducted with only a few people because of the medical and
 >legal considerations. This is not something that can be done
 >lightly and must be monitored by a medical doctor.

What experiment? Conducted by whom? Using what drug? How many
people? Etc. Etc. Etc. I am not familiar with such a test. But
then, I am a researcher of only my own experiences. I would like
the detail as it interests me. As a perceived experiencer I feel
an obligation to determine just what the hell has happened to me
over the years.

All of which above, by the way, does not explain squat about the
other sensless and literally _stupid_ things which happen to
many of us. Lights winking out. Electronic issues. With me it's
clocks. Digital clocks.

Etc.

So, Kev, I guess what I am saying is that none of the above
which you wrote explains anything. Which is not an indictment on
you. Merely a basic "core" issue of this strange and often
oxymoronic phenom.

Best,

Jim






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              Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 23:09:43 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 04:41:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -


 >Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 21:53:49 -0400
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >I did look. Would need better copy and video characteristics
 >(camera data) etc. to properly evaluate. Might be an object
 >propelled by explosion.

A damage inspector on TV was showing off some sort of metal
girder that had flown out of the WTC during the explosion and
come to rest in what was left of a living room in an apartment
across the street.

Whatever is in the mystery video is obviously much larger, but
maybe it's a structural component. Can its trajectory be traced?


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 816-561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
http://mactonnies.com









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             EW 01-Oct-01: FBI's Top 20 Internet Security Risks

From: Kurt Jonach <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 00:37:43 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 04:45:18 -0400
Subject: EW 01-Oct-01: FBI's Top 20 Internet Security Risks

------------------------------------------------------------

The Electric Warrior : News October 1, 2001
http://www.electricwarrior.com/news/ewNews0030.htm

------------------------------------------------------------
� FBI's TOP 20 INTERNET SECURITY RISKS
technology news
by The Electric Warrior

*** The FBI's NIPC and a non-profit computer industry institute
update their list of the most critical Internet security
vulnerabilities. ***

All of the most successful Internet computer viruses took
advantage of well-known network security holes, and might have
been prevented by freely available software updates.

The National Infrastructure Protection Center (NIPC) and the
SANS Institute have teamed up to help both professional and home
Internet users avoid 20 of the most common computer threats.

A little over a year ago, the SANS Institute and the NIPC
created a highly successful list, which summarized the Ten Most
Critical Internet Security Vulnerabilities. That list was
updated on October 1, and expanded to cover a broader range of
issues.

There is no way to "tough it out" and ignore these common
computer vulnerabilities, and security experts routinely advise
computer users to download and install software fixes, called
patches. But the practice is frequently overlooked by large
companies, universities, and especially, home users.

"The challenge right now is that (home users) either go to a
vendor, or they go to a site that's too techie for them, so they
give up," Alan Paller told the Associated Press. Paller is
research director for the SANS Institute, a cooperative
education and research organization.

According to Paller "This is a site that's designed for people
that are regular users, and it isn't trying to sell them
anything."

------------------------------------------------------------
DO IT YOURSELF

As reported by AP, "Many individual users are unaware of
vulnerabilities in their computers and find installing software
updates tedious and difficult."

According to the SANS Institute, "These few software
vulnerabilities account for the majority of successful attacks,
simply because attackers are opportunistic -- taking the easiest
and most convenient route. They exploit the best-known flaws
with the most effective and widely available attack tools."

Good news for "mere mortals", you don't have to read the whole
list. The information is easy to read, and broken up into three
categories: General Vulnerabilities, Windows Vulnerabilities,
and Unix Vulnerabilities.

Point-and-click Webmasters using Microsoft Internet Information
Services (IIS) take note: The first two items on the Windows
list explain the facts behind two recent computer worms, Nidma
(Web Server Folder Traversal) and Code Red (ISAPI Extension
Buffer Overflows).

------------------------------------------------------------
KEEP IT SIMPLE SECURITY

The NIPC has also posted a list of seven computer security tips
for small business and home computer users. Among the best:

"Do not open email attachments from strangers, regardless of how
enticing the Subject Line or attachment may be. Be suspicious of
any unexpected email attachment from someone you do know because
it may have been sent without that person�s knowledge from an
infected machine."

------------------------------------------------------------
RELATED RESOURCES

The Twenty Most Critical Internet Security Vulnerabilities
http://www.sans.org/top20.htm
(SANS Institute) - The SANS/FBI Top Twenty list is valuable
because the majority of successful attacks on computer systems
via the Internet can be traced to exploitation of security flaws
on this list.

Seven Simple Computer Security Tips
http://www.nipc.gov/warnings/computertips.htm
(NIPC) - Use strong passwords ... Make regular backups of
critical data ... Use virus protection software ... Use a
firewall ... Do not keep computers online ... Do not open email
attachments from strangers ... Download security patches

Computer Industry Takes on Viruses
http://news.excite.com/news/ap/011001/16/computer-security
(Excite News/AP) - The FBI is teaming with the computer industry
to help American companies and regular Internet users prevent
the 20 worst computer threats - from the Code Red worm to the
Melissa virus.

------------------------------------------------------------
THE ELECTRIC WARRIOR
October 1, 2001
Silicon Valley, CA
http://www.electricwarrior.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Web developers, the URL address for this content is:
http://www.electricwarrior.com/news/ewNews0031.htm

Permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this article
or any portion thereof, provided The Electric Warrior is cited
as the source.

Images are created exclusively for the Electric Warrior Website.
They can be downloaded and cached for individual use, but may
not be reproduced or used in any other context without
permission.

eWarrior@electricwarrior.com









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              Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 16:41:19 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 04:48:49 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... Hatch

 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...
 >Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:24:41 -0500

 >>Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:22:24 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...


 >>>I have written many a UFO article, some have even been
 >>>published. I have also written a few Sci-Fi (sorry Kevin we
 >>>Brits prefer that term) stories which have never been published.

 >>This particular 'Brit' very strongly dislikes both "Sci-Fi" and
 >>"Brit". As the latter began as a derogatory term used by
 >>republicans in Northern Ireland I regard as an offensive racial
 >>epithet.

 >In deference to you, and of course speaking (well, actually
 >typing) strictly for myself and not for Sean, I will not use
 >"Brit" in any further posting.

 >But really, it should be no more offensive than "Yank" for
 >American (which doesn't offend any American of my acquaintance,
 >though I know it began as a term of ridicule used by British
 >troops during the, er, misunderstanding between our two
 >societies in the latter 18th Century), and it certainly is not a
 >"racial" epithet, Churchillian rhetorical flourishes about the
 >British "race" aside.

 >I suppose I should add that I speak - er, type - as a lifelong
 >Anglophile.


Hello Jerry, John...

I was surprised (and a bit saddened) to hear that the term
"brit" was in any way pejorative, negative or whatever. I've
used it many a time, almost as a term of endearment; yes
something like "yank".

I wonder how many Americans realize this? Darn few I would
guess. How about the Canadians, Australians etc.?

I've called people "brits" right to their face and nobody seemed
to mind. Maybe they were just being polite. Is this general
knowledge in Britain itself? "Brit" certainly doesn't sound evil
to my innocent ears.

Best

- Larry

PS: Of course I swear a lot, so maybe I'm not the best judge of
such matters.








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                           Alfred's Odd Ode #353c

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 06:16:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 09:05:41 -0400
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #353c


UFOs? They're wound up in the taproots of our lives. They do not
go away and, frankly, fill portentous skies.

As they are well outside of what we're fed through our TV's, we
know they're outside *Law*, my friend; they instruct we're on
our knees. Evidence presumes they're here; that we are not
alone. The Evidence is parchment, ancient glyphs, and carved in
stone. And we forget the photographs, forget the ones who see,
and line up to be utilized by the ones with *greater* need.

Something is, yes, out there, but we shove it from our minds. We
make them into make believe and we don't look - or find. All
this (?) just crass instruction from a culture almost dead... a
culture run on old ideas that look back and not ahead!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.








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                    Nick Pope's Weird World October 2001

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 12:39:18 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 09:08:51 -0400
Subject: Nick Pope's Weird World October 2001


NICK POPE�S WEIRD WORLD

Welcome to the October 2001 round-up of news, views
and gossip from the world of ufology, the paranormal,
the weird and the wonderful.

UFO Magazine Conference

UFO Magazine�s annual conference took place in Leeds on 21, 22
and 23 September and was a complete sell out (715 seats) on each
of the two main days. This makes it the most successful British
UFO conference of all time. The material presented certainly
lived up to everyone�s expectations, and the feedback from
attendees was very positive. Saturday was pretty much devoted to
abductions, with presentations from Budd Hopkins and John Mack,
widely regarded as the leading experts in this area of ufology.
Budd presented some new material on the Linda Cortile case,
concerning Linda�s meetings with the late Cardinal O�Connor of
New York, and the interest shown by the Catholic Church in
Linda�s experiences and the phenomenon more generally. John Mack
views the alien contact phenomenon in a different way to Budd,
and his presentation put the case for a more spiritual
interpretation of what�s happening.

Georgina Bruni was the only Saturday speaker not dealing with
abduction, though her talk threw up some intriguing clues that
some of the USAF witnesses did experience some missing time.
Georgina also offered the audience some new information on the
involvement of General Gordon Williams and General Charles
Gabriel, and showed a series of USAF and MOD documents, drawings
and photographs.

I gave a presentation with Brigitte Grant, an abductee who I�ve
been working with for several years. Brigitte gave an overview
of the various strange experiences that she�s had, focusing on a
few specific UFO and abduction experiences. For an audience more
used to hearing from the abduction researchers, it was
refreshing to hear about experiences first hand, from an
abductee, and aside from being fascinated by her story, the
audience very much appreciated Brigitte�s courage for speaking
out about her encounters in so public a forum. The Sunday
speakers were equally impressive.

Ted Roe gave a fascinating insight into the work that NARCAP is
doing with pilots who report UFOs, while Santiago Garza showed
some truly extraordinary film footage of some sightings in
Mexico which appear to show humanoid figures flying in an
upright position, as if they were walking in the air. These
so-called �Flying Little Men� sightings are something that I�m
sure we�ll be hearing more of in the future. There were also
powerful presentations from Graham Birdsall and Russel
Callaghan, the latter of whom showed some recent British video
footage of UFO sightings. It was also great to hear from Martyn
Stubbs, always a popular figure at Leeds. A full report on the
conference, complete with photographs, will appear in the bumper
November/December edition of UFO Magazine, which goes on sale on
25 October. Meanwhile check out www.ufomag.co.uk for the latest
ufological news and views.

Operation Lightning Strike

The paperback edition of my latest book, Operation Lightning
Strike, goes on sale on 1 October. So far as my publishers are
aware, this book and my other novel, Operation Thunder Child,
are the only two science fiction books ever to have been vetted
by the Government prior to publication. Operation Lightning
Strike is a speculative novel about alien invasion, drawing on
my official Ministry of Defence research and investigation into
UFOs, alien abduction and other strange phenomena. It�s
published by Pocket Books and costs 5.99.

Rendlesham Revelations

The October edition of UFO Magazine, on sale now, features an
article I�ve written in the aftermath of Georgina Bruni�s
breaking of the story concerning the release of MOD documents on
the Rendlesham Forest incident. This article follows up on some
of the points raised in Georgina�s article in the September
edition, which also featured many of the key documents. As I
wrote some of the documents that have been released, I�ve
naturally been asked quite a lot about this, so thought it would
be helpful if I offered some views. Much inaccurate material has
been posted on certain websites and online discussion groups,
often resulting from mistakes and misunderstandings on the part
of researchers not familiar with the unique culture of the MOD.
Sceptical researchers have talked about documents from �the DIS
files�, implying that the secretariat where I worked was not
fully briefed on the work of the Defence Intelligence Staff. My
article corrects such misunderstandings and shows that none of
the DIS or Ops(GE) documents came from any file other than
DS8/10/209 Part E or D/Sec(AS)/12/2/1. Far from being �out of
the loop�, the secretariat where I worked took the lead role,
tasking the DIS and Ground Environment radar specialists to take
forward certain parts of the investigation relating to their
respective areas of expertise. My article also corrects the
rather more widespread but equally incorrect view that the MOD
documents implicate me in a cover-up. The documents released
include several ones that I wrote, including material that I
wrote for the MOD Press Office. This material states that the
events were of no defence significance. I also suggest a PR
strategy to help dispel accusations that there had been a
cover-up. All this has prompted some researchers to believe that
I�ve lied about the case, that I�m part of a cover-up and that
I�ve been involved in the release of the Rendlesham documents to
Georgina Bruni, as part of an MOD indoctrination or
disinformation strategy. I can confirm that I no longer have any
official role concerning the UFO subject and that the work I do
now is in a private capacity. My article explains the
distinction between opinions I gave while working officially on
the UFO subject (when I had to follow the party line) and my
personal views on the case. It also explains why I was unable to
discuss or hint at the involvement of the DIS, and my work with
them, until release of documents concerning their role had been
authorised. The fact that there were (and still are) areas of my
UFO work that I can�t discuss should not be taken as proof that
I�m part of a conspiracy. I still work for the MOD and even if I
didn�t, the Official Secrets Act is binding for life.

Extraterrestrial Encyclopedia

I�ve just received a copy of The Encyclopedia of
Extraterrestrial Encounters, edited by Ronald Story. A detailed
review will appear in next month�s column, but if it�s anywhere
near as good as The Encyclopedia of UFOs, which Story edited in
1980, then this is a title that anyone with an interest in UFOs
should read.


Nick Pope�s four books, Open Skies, Closed Minds, The Uninvited,
Operation Thunder Child and Operation Lightning Strike are
available from most good bookshops and from all the usual
Internet book sites. His British publishers are Simon &
Schuster. In America, his first two books are published in
hardback by The Overlook Press and in mass-market paperback by
Dell Publishing.









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                       X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001

From: Steve Bassett <ExPPAC@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 12:00:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 16:55:52 -0400
Subject: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001



                                          X-PPAC
                             Update - October 2, 2001

MSNBC  Series

MSNBC is about to launch a 5-part series by Michael Moran
titled:  The Secret Empire: The U.S. Military in the 20th
Century. www.msnbc.com/news/WARROOM_front.asp?0dm=V22AN

This is the first time that X-PPAC has seen this terminology,
"The Secret Empire," used by a mainstream news entity to refer
to the U.S. military/intel complex. Update recipients are
strongly encourage to check out this series.


Event  (note university venue)

Missouri MUFON, under the guidance of State Director Bruce
Widaman, will present "Flying Saucers Hidden History 2001" on
Nov. 3 at the University of Missouri at St. Louis.  The program
in the J. C. Penny Auditorium will get underway at 9 a.m. and
conclude at 9: p.m.  The theme of the all-day program is
disclosure of the government cover-up of UFO information.

Speakers include Stanton Friedman, author of Crash at Corona and
Top Secret/Majic; Richard Dolan, author of UFOs and the National
Security   State (reviewed in January, 2001, Journal); and Dr.
Carol Rosin of ICIS.

Contact Widaman at 800-489-4UFO or P. O. Box 643, St. Charles,
MO 63302.


Upcoming Media Appearances/Presentations (Bassett)

KWHL FM 106.5,  Anchorage,  October 3,  7:30 pm  EDT
Webcast:   www.kwhl.com

KTRS AM 550,  St. Louis, October 12, 11 pm EDT
Webcast:  www.550ktrs.com/pages/listenonline.htm

Baltimore, MD presentation,  October 21,  1 pm EDT
For info e-mail:  LightStarr00@aol.com


Time to Coalition

With the drive for congressional hearings moved to the side by
world events, this is a time for organizations within the field
to come together with each other and possibly with receptive
organizations tangential to the issues at hand.

Only a broadbased structure with political clout will be able to
influence disclosure and post-disclosure government policies and
actions.

    ___________________________________________________

        Extraterrestrial Phenomena Political Action Committee
                             URL: www.x-ppac.org
                           E-mail: exppac@aol.com
                             Phone: 301-990-4290
                               Fax: 301-990-0199
                          4938 Hampden Lane, #161
                          Bethesda, Maryland 20814
    ___________________________________________________

     Spread the word about X-PPAC and the politics of disclosure.
            Contribute online at: www.x-ppac.org/Contribute.html
        or mail to: 4938 Hampden Lane,161 Bethesda, MD 20814
    ___________________________________________________

            "There is almost no limit to what you can accomplish,
                    if you are willing to give away the credit."
    ___________________________________________________

              "The truth costs money. Lies, on the other hand,
                          will be provided to you for free."







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              Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 09:35:28 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 16:58:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -


 >Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 19:27:44 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center?
 >From: Lan Fleming <LanFleming@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:39:05 EDT
 >>Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 11:03:20 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center?

<snip>

 >BTW: There are apparently very few military aircraft that can
 >reach Mach 5.

But _No_ civilian. Oh, I forgot, the point of your post must
have been that one of George Adamski's little tinny saucers did
it.


Clear skies,

Bob Young








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                           World Trade Center Hoax

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 06:51:48 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 17:00:37 -0400
Subject: World Trade Center Hoax


For those of you that have received the infamous photo of the
tourist on top of the WTC with an airplane in the background -
ignore this piece of trash of a hoax. Here's the story on it:

http://www.snopes2.com/rumors/crash.htm

I've also updated my commentary on the maggots trying to take
advantage of the WTC attacks... you know who you are. These
people are an absolute disgrace and I think its high time
Ufology started doing a lot of house cleaning. Something has to
change...

http://www.ufowatchdog.com/shameless.html


Regards,

Royce J. Myers III

"Don't Trip On Your Open Mind... or your own ambition to exploit
murder victims and show the world what a dirtbag vulture you
really are..."









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   Oct > Oct 2

                        Nick Pope Does Sport Radio UK

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 14:51:30 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 17:02:25 -0400
Subject: Nick Pope Does Sport Radio UK


Worth a mention: Nick will be on the popular James Whale
Radio Show from 11pm Thursday 4 October. That's Sport Radio.











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                Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... -

From: Donald Shevlin <donnieshevlin@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 10:28:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 17:04:40 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... -


Hi Errol, and all who are concerned,

I was asked to look over this video shot of the second crash. At
first I thought as everyone else did, "What was that?", but on
further review on the actual video footage I found that it was a
helicopter. It's passing just above and behind the position of
where the camera is located during this video shot.

If you look at the video just as the second jet hits the tower,
you can just barely see the shadow move over the upper corner of
the _second_ tower closet to the camera. Then on closer review you
could the shadow for a brief moment in the smoke just before the
shadow passes over the second tower corner.

The reason it looks as if the shadow is moving so quickly is
that the shadow is reflecting off of smoke closer to the camera
than the buildings are in relationship. Thus giving the illusion
of a greater speed.

So, in conclusion, it's a chopper filming the tower destruction.
A sad day in all lives, here and abroad. There is no UFO to be
spotted.

Donnie Shevlin









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              Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Lowe

From: Adam Lowe <nicap@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:17:52 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 07:59:41 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Lowe


 >Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 16:41:19 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...
 >>Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:24:41 -0500

 >>>Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:22:24 +0100
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

<snip>

 >>>This particular 'Brit' very strongly dislikes both "Sci-Fi" and
 >>>"Brit". As the latter began as a derogatory term used by
 >>>republicans in Northern Ireland I regard as an offensive racial
 >>>epithet.

 >>In deference to you, and of course speaking (well, actually
 >>typing) strictly for myself and not for Sean, I will not use
 >>"Brit" in any further posting.

<snip>

 >I was surprised (and a bit saddened) to hear that the term
 >"brit" was in any way pejorative, negative or whatever. I've
 >used it many a time, almost as a term of endearment; yes
 >something like "yank".

<snip>


Hi Larry, list.

This is the first time I've heard that 'Brit' is in any way a
negative term for us.


Adam









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                 Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 15:09:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 08:20:56 -0400
Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Velez


 >From: Steve Bassett <ExPPAC@aol.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 12:00:09 -0400
 >Subject: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001


Hello All,


I do wish to comment, in this forum, on statements made in the
X-PPAC Update. Steve, please feel free to respond (or not) here
on the UpDates List to any of my comments. I have teed-off and
taken my best swing. Please feel welcome & free to do like-wise.


Steve wrote:

 >Time to Coalition

 >With the drive for congressional hearings moved to the side by
 >world events, this is a time for organizations within the field to come
 >together with each other and possibly with receptive organizations
 >tangential to the issues at hand.

 >Only a broadbased structure with political clout will be able to
 >influence disclosure and post-disclosure government
 >policies and actions.

Steve, this is what _should_ have been done from the very
_beginning_! It's one of the things that myself and others have
been belly-aching about since day one. It's all being done
bass-ackwards. The witnesses are being screened _after_ they
have been introduced and presented publicly. Consensus is being
sought _after_ the fact.

C'mon man.

If "consensus" had been sought from the _start_ from the major
UFO organizations and from the UFO community at large, the
effort could have been backed by many more people. It could have
been much more representative and as a direct result, more
popular, coordinated, and bottom line 'effective' than it has
been.

The problem with all that is; Greer would have had to give them
some say so in how the thing would have been handled and
presented. 'Who' represented the UFO community before our
elected officials would have been put up for a general vote. I
never would have voted for Greer. For example: put "Greer" and
say "Richard Hall" or "Richard Haines" on the same ballot for
the job. Tell me who _you_ think gets to enjoy a landslide
mandate to be our collective representative(s) before congress.
It's no contest. (No lo contiende) And a 'no-brainer' for those
voting.

A broad-based organization with strong consensus, internal
unity, and backing by its members would have been the benefit of
doing it democratically - as opposed to presenting the public
with a monarch/dictator) from the very beginning. And that's
just some of the ways the whole thing _should_ have gone down.
But it didn't. Now, after the fact, you have to scurry around
seeking the self-same "consensus" and strong popular backing
which should have been the _first_ thing on the need-to-do list.
Not the tenth thing. Most, if not all, of this popular support
that you seek should have already been in place.

To get the kind of "broad-based" backing you seek, you need to
allow folks to have a say in things. To actively participate in
the process. That's the 'American Way' Steve. A panel/group of
bright, experienced individuals heading up this thing, who can
nurture and direct it properly, would almost ensure its success
on the front end. Folks who have been _voted_ in to the
positions by members of the UFO community and its many
organizations would enjoy enormous popular support. It just will
not go to a self-appointed "representative" with a personal
political agenda. Much of which is unrelated to actual UFO
disclosure anyway.

And while there is a break in the 'action'...

The witnesses also need to be thoroughly/properly screened by
some of the best people available in ufology. For example: If
you put guys like Kevin Randle, Stan Freidman, or a cop like
Royce Myers on a job like this, I can promise you that whatever
witnesses survive their screening process will be bullet-proof,
air-tight-certifiable, and solid gold. That isn't the case now
though is it?

Now is the time to start from scratch.

Seek broad-based consensus. Nominate representatives that folks
can then vote for. Devise a plan of attack that will actually
_accomplish_ something - other than speaking tours and tape
sales. Carefully screen the witnesses. Secure
signatures/petitions via the Internet with thousands of
subscribers all addressed to members of congress _requesting_
open, public hearings. Dance naked in the pale moon light... do
it all. But do it _right_.

With the strong backing and consensus of the all the people your
problems will be solved. _Before_ you send anybody to represent
us all in front of _our_ elected officials, ask _us_ who _we_
would like that person(s) to be. Start by making this a more
democratic and representative process and watch how the numbers
of supporters begins to swell. Before Gersten came along, the
membership numbers in CAUS had been sky-rocketing. This whole
process could enjoy that same kind of popular support too. But
not as it presently exists.

I can't tell you how I long to throw my support behind a
group-effort to secure hearings for total UFO information
disclosure. Like many, many, others, I am still waiting for that
kind of truly grass-roots representative movement to come along.
In me, you have a potentially powerful, and vocal advocate. And
I'm not just passing gas; I have a popular and busy website and
I'm on the radio (50,000 Watt station with a big Internet
following) twice a month. Haven't you ever asked yourself why
guys like me, (and there are plenty,) are giving you all kinds
of static - busting your chops - instead of throwing strong
support behind you? Do you ever _really_listen_ to what is
being said/expressed? I sometimes wonder if you dismiss it all
as pure malcontent blather. If you do, you are committing a
serious error in judgement about some good people.


Regards, respectfully submitted, a 'true' friend who cares,...


John Velez, speaking strictly for myself








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                   Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #353c - Checchini

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 18:24:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 08:24:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #353c - Checchini


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #353c
 >Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 06:16:29 -0500

<snip poem>

 >Something is, yes, out there, but we shove it from our minds.
 >We make them into make believe and we don't look - or find.
 >All  this (?) just crass instruction from a culture almost dead...
 >a culture run on old ideas that look back and not ahead!

   UFOs at night.
   Invade my safe little world.
   Be gone, demon spawn!

(it was time someone started a haiku thread...)











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               WTC Hoax, Bell & Dames [was: World Trade Center

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 19:42:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 08:38:23 -0400
Subject: WTC Hoax, Bell & Dames [was: World Trade Center


 >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: World Trade Center Hoax
 >Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 06:51:48 -0700

 >For those of you that have received the infamous photo of the
 >tourist on top of the WTC with an airplane in the background -
 >ignore this piece of trash of a hoax. Here's the story on it:

It's really hard for me to believe (but then again, no it isn't)
that anyone would actually believe that that photo is authentic.

I can't fathom the lack of brain cells necessary that would keep
a sane person from asking the plethora of obvious questions,
chief amongst them being: "After the ensuing apocalyptic inferno
and total annihilation of the World Trade Center, how did they
find this pristine photo?"

(never mind the fact that the guy in the photo is dressed
  for winter, the "plane" is perfectly in focus, and perfectly
  computer-rendered looking, etc, etc.)

I should post my WTC photos, 'cause I was there, on top of that
building, 2 days before the attack. And I live in Boston. And I
live and work near where some of the hijackers (may they rot in
hell) lived, and where they found a car with an Arabic flight
manual, etc.

Never have I said "surreal" so many times in my life...

 >I've also updated my commentary on the maggots trying to take
 >advantage of the WTC attacks... you know who you are. These
 >people are an absolute disgrace and I think its high time
 >Ufology started doing a lot of house cleaning. Something has
 >to change...

 >http://www.ufowatchdog.com/shameless.html

While I couldn't help chuckling at the imagery of a few dozen
passengers throwing Spam at a would-be hijacker whilst chanting
"Pig meat! Pig meat!", I totally agree.

(put 'em in a boat to Afghanistan with Falwell and Robertson?)

I barely have any "love" left for Art Bell, but I was listening
the other night when Dames was on, and I tried getting through
to ask him (Dames) what ever happened to the last dozen or so
catastrophes he predicted. Bell, who is getting stupider with
each passing day, never asked.

He also never called Dames to task for his lousy excuses in
response to listener questions about whether or not Dames & Co.
had used any of their great mental powers to help the government
find Bin Laden, et al. I can't remember exactly what he said,
but it wasn't important... stuff like "No" and "It's hard" and
"By the time we found them, they'd be gone." - the obvious
rebuttal to _that_ being "Hey, moron, if you can 'remote view'
the _future_, how about finding out where Bin Laden is _going_
to be, and then let us know?"

Etc.

I'm sure Bell has more money than God at this point, but...

Hold on... I'm picking something up... whoa, strange...
it's from the... from the _future_!... message say:

  In the Kingdom of Nye
  a dumb ruler will die
  He listened to many fools
  talk about monsters and ghouls
  He was very unwise
  to help spread so many lies
  Caused much panic and strife
  Will pay with his life

Oh no! Someone call Cartman! We need some AUTHORITAAAH!










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                Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 20:13:19 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 09:05:30 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... -


 >From: Donald Shevlin <donnieshevlin@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From
 >Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 10:28:35 -0500

 >Hi Errol, and all who are concerned,

 >I was asked to look over this video shot of the second crash.
At >first I thought as everyone else did, "What was that?", but
on >further review on the actual video footage I found that it
was a >helicopter. It's passing just above and behind the
position of >where the camera is located during this video shot.

 >If you look at the video just as the second jet hits the tower,
 >you can just barely see the shadow move over the upper corner
of >the _second_ tower closet to the camera. Then on closer
review you >could the shadow for a brief moment in the smoke
just before the >shadow passes over the second tower corner.

 >The reason it looks as if the shadow is moving so quickly is
 >that the shadow is reflecting off of smoke closer to the camera
 >than the buildings are in relationship. Thus giving the
illusion >of a greater speed.

 >So, in conclusion, it's a chopper filming the tower
destruction. >A sad day in all lives, here and abroad. There is
no UFO to be >spotted.

 >Donnie Shevlin

Good job, Donnie.  Of course, I knew this to be so all along. I
was just testing the rest of yous.


Jim Mortellaro
As himself this time








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              Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 19:14:51 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 09:07:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 09:35:28 EDT
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center?

 >>Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 19:27:44 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center?
 >>From: Lan Fleming <LanFleming@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:39:05 EDT
 >>>Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 11:03:20 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center?

 ><snip>

 >>BTW: There are apparently very few military aircraft that can
 >>reach Mach 5.

 >But _No_ civilian. Oh, I forgot, the point of your post must
 >have been that one of George Adamski's little tinny saucers did
 >it.

I don't recall citing that as a likely explanation. I gave my
reasons for _tentatively_ concluding that the video showed an
object travelling at a high rate of speed. I see you have
nothing intelligent to say in response. That doesn't lead me to
conclude my reasons can't be refuted, only that you can't do it.









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              Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -

From: Lan Fleming <LanFleming@houston.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 19:53:50 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 09:08:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 21:53:49 -0400
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center?

 >>Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:06:58 -0600
 >>Subject: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center?
 >>From: Lan Fleming <LanFleming@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>

<snip>

 >>This may be something that one of the experts on the list (Bruce
 >>Maccabee?) should take a closer look at.

 >I did look. Would need better copy and video characteristics
 >(camera data) etc. to properly evaluate. Might be an object
 >propelled by explosion.

Yes. I suppose that a proper evaluation would require, at the
very least, verifying that the frame rate of the original video
is what it appears to be on the available clips. Perhaps Fox
News removed some frames to decrease the download time for the
internet version of the clip. Information on the original video
should be available from the news service that recorded it.









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              Budd Hopkins' UFO Seminar Announcement - 10/13/01

From: Intruders Foundation <IFConfer@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 23:21:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 09:13:56 -0400
Subject: Budd Hopkins' UFO Seminar Announcement - 10/13/01



Intruders Foundation Seminar Series Announcement

AN EVENING WITH ROBERT SWIATEK -
REPRESENTING THE FUND FOR UFO RESEARCH
AND THE UFO RESEARCH COALITION

Saturday, October 13, 2001

In a unique seminar program, Robert Swiatek will present two
separate but equally important topics. As the most experienced
researcher on the subject, Rob will open with a discussion of
the world-famous 1952 Washington National Airport UFO sightings.
During this series of reports from the last week in July, UFOs
were sighted in proscribed air space over the Capitol building
and the White House. These unknown craft were sighted visually
and simultaneously tracked on radar. Jet interceptors were
vectored in, and an atmosphere of crisis gripped many military
and civilian authorities. On July 29, the Air Force held a
tumultuous press conference at the Pentagon to address the UFO
sightings, a meeting, which at the time was the most widely
attended military press conference since World War II.

Robert's second subject will deal with an important and ongoing,
but highly controversial affair, Dr. Steven Greer's "Disclosure
Project." Rob and his wife Susan have been following Dr. Greer's
activities for a number of years, observing "...the success of
his often radical and unsupported pronouncements, as well as the
considerable problems that they have created for serious,
scientifically-inclined UFO and abduction researchers.” Susan
Swiatek attended Dr. Greer's recent "Disclosure Project" press
conference at the Washington Hilton Hotel, which featured a
number of witnesses to the UFO cover-up, and will add her
personal observations.

A question and answer period will follow Robert Swiatek's two
important presentations, in an evening no one interested in the
history of the UFO phenomenon and its present complex state can
afford to miss.


REGISTRATION & INFORMATION

The seminar will be held on October 13th at the meeting rooms of
A.R.E., on the tenth floor of 150 W. 28th Street, New York, NY.
The price of the seminar is $30 for non-members and $20 for
members of IF, seniors, and students. Reservations must be made
by telephone at 212-645-5278, and will be filled on a first
come, first served basis. Payment must be made in advance to
secure the reservation. Make checks payable to the Intruders
Foundation, P.O. Box 30233, New York, NY 10011. Only 50
reservations will be accepted.

On-street parking is generally available in the neighborhood.
The seminar will begin at 7:30 PM and end at 10:00PM. Doors open
at 7:00 PM. There will be a one half-hour intermission, during
which light complimentary refreshments will be served. A book
table will offer books, videotapes, and other material for sale
to those interested. For additional information, call IF at
212-645-5278.

Hope to see you there!

----------

The Intruders Foundation Seminar Series is presented in the
interests of open-minded scientific learning and the free
exchange of research, ideas, and theories. IF makes no
specific claims or endorsements regarding any materials, views,
or subject matter presented by our guests.

----------

Want to know more about Budd Hopkins and his nonprofit
scientific research organization, as well as past and future IF
events? Please visit our website:

www.intrudersfoundation.org

----------------









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             Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Kelly

From: Kelly <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 08:19:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 09:16:50 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Kelly


 >From: Adam Lowe <nicap@blueyonder.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...
 >Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:17:52 +0100

 >>Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 16:41:19 -0700
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...
 >>>Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:24:41 -0500

 >>>>Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:22:24 +0100
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

 ><snip>

 >>>>This particular 'Brit' very strongly dislikes both "Sci-Fi" and
 >>>>"Brit". As the latter began as a derogatory term used by
 >>>>republicans in Northern Ireland I regard as an offensive racial
 >>>>epithet.

 >>>In deference to you, and of course speaking (well, actually
 >>>typing) strictly for myself and not for Sean, I will not use
 >>>"Brit" in any further posting.

 ><snip>

 >>I was surprised (and a bit saddened) to hear that the term
 >>"brit" was in any way pejorative, negative or whatever. I've
 >>used it many a time, almost as a term of endearment; yes
 >>something like "yank".

 ><snip>

 >Hi Larry, list.

 >This is the first time I've heard that 'Brit' is in any way a
 >negative term for us.


I asked on another List that has a lot of 'Brits' on it and
basically they said no, it is not derogatory or racist.  One
guy, originally from Belfast, said the term is sometimes used to
describe the _Army_ by N. Ireland republicans, and others said
that something to the effect that the person who posted this
'sounds like an uptight p----'.

So it's okay to call a Brit a Brit although the Scots and Welsh
may prefer to be called 'Scots' and 'Welsh' depending on the
circumstances.


Kelly








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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 3

             Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 05:15:37 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 09:18:56 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Hatch


 >From: Adam Lowe <nicap@blueyonder.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...
 >Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:17:52 +0100

 >>Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 16:41:19 -0700
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

<snip>

 >>I was surprised (and a bit saddened) to hear that the term
 >>"brit" was in any way pejorative, negative or whatever. I've
 >>used it many a time, almost as a term of endearment; yes
 >>something like "yank".

 >Hi Larry, list.

 >This is the first time I've heard that 'Brit' is in any way a
 >negative term for us.

 >Adam


Thanks Adam!

This Yank does not want to offend any B***s at all.

There are so many words one cannot use any more, for all sorts
of reasons. Its a shame really, and so unnecessary in many
cases.


Best

- Larry Hatch







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 3

                    Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #353c - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 07:46:57 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 09:20:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #353c - Lehmberg


 >Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 18:24:17 -0400
 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
 >Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #353c
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #353c
 >>Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 06:16:29 -0500

 ><snip poem>

 >>Something is, yes, out there, but we shove it from our minds.
 >>We make them into make believe and we don't look - or find.
 >>All  this (?) just crass instruction from a culture almost dead...
 >>a culture run on old ideas that look back and not ahead!

 >  UFOs at night.
 >  Invade my safe little world.
 >  Be gone, demon spawn!

 >(it was time someone started a haiku thread...)


Ironic that acceptance of the alleged ufological demons on
August eleventh would have likely precluded the actions of
fanatical demons a month later... Who acts up when they know a
powerful stranger is watching?

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.











   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 3

                       Re: Filer's Files #40 10-03-01

From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 14:54:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 22:33:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #40 10-03-01


Filer's Files #40 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
October 3, 2001, Majorstar@aol.com.
Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com,

UFO sightings have picked up again in the US and continue in
Norway. UFOs were observed in New Jersey, Pennsylvania,
Georgia, Ohio, Wisconsin, Indiana, Illinois, Nebraska, Kansas,
Arkansas, Colorado, Singapore, and Norway. Crop Circles were
reported in Canada and the Netherlands.

US AND BRITAIN will likely launch attacks within Afghanistan in
the next several days. Small teams of elite US forces, together
with British commandos, have begun operating on the ground
around key targets inside Afghanistan in the first phase of the
US led military offensive. Specialized military reconnaissance
units are focusing on primary targets for potential air and
ground attacks, notably hideouts of the terrorist organization
led by Osama bin Laden and vulnerable bases of Afghanistan's
ruling Taliban militia. These forces are also attempting to
obtain Afghan allies who hate the Taliban. Afghanistan is
involved in a civil war with the Taliban controlling most of
the country and the Northern Alliance holding about 10 percent
of the country in the Northeast. The Northern Alliance will
benefit from an airborne resupply route from Dushanbe,
Tajikistan, to Bagram Air Base. It is likely we are already
using some of their facilities. Uzbekistan and Tajikistan were
once p! art of the Soviet Union, and with prodding from Russia,
may offer bases for US forces. These countries operate
Russian-built, twin-engine An-24s and An-32s transports fly in
supplies and ammunition at night to the Northern Alliance.
Surprisingly, India was the first country to offer the US air
bases to fight the Taliban and also to send in supplies to
support the Northern Alliance. Pakistan is unlikely to allow
bombing attacks from its territory, but will probably allow
aerial tankers and cargo aircraft to operate from there.
Attacks will likely be launched from aircraft carriers at sea.

President George W. Bush said in a White House meeting with
King Abdullah II of Jordan, "He and his military planners had
studied the lessons learned by Russia in its losing struggle
against Afghan rebels in the 1980s." US Special Forces have
begun carrying out scouting missions to pave the way for air
strikes followed by landings by helicopter-borne troops." These
operations involve small teams of four to 12 men, that are
secretly helicopter into Afghan territory. They hide during
daylight and then use night vision equipment to pinpoint
command posts, supply depots, training headquarters and other
targets for US military strikes. At least 2,000 members of the
US Special Forces, including the 75th Ranger Regiment, their
command unit, have deployed during the last week in bases close
to Afghan borders in Pakistan, Uzbekistan, and Tajikistan.
Britain reportedly has its 250-man Special Air Service on
secret missions in northern Afghanistan.

POSSIBLE BOMBING OF WORLD TRADE CENTER?

Lee Robertson, the project structural engineer who helped
design the World Trade Center claims the twin towers were
designed to take the impact of a four engine 707 commercial jet
aircraft. At 8:45 AM, Flight 11, a 767 aircraft crashed into
the center of the North Tower exploding its jet fuel. The fires
continue to burn for 1 hour 27 minutes, but only diminishing
smoke is observed when at 10:30 AM the North Tower suddenly
collapses. At 9:03 AM, Flight 175, a 757 aircraft slams into
the South Tower near the corner of the building spraying most
of the fuel outside the building. The fuel is burned away in
seconds with a huge fireball explosion as most of you have seen
on television. At 9:50 AM, only 47 minutes later the South
Tower collapses. Both buildings successfully withstood the
aircraft's impacts and their devastating explosions of jet
fuel. People in the 80th floors remarked they hardly felt the
impacts. I have spent a great deal of time looking at the video
of th! e tragedy. Something seems wrong. The South Tower who
took less of a hit and much less jet fuel collapses in half the
time it takes the North Tower to collapse. I noticed that just
prior to the collapse of either tower, debris is sent into the
air like an explosion has just occurred.

The general wisdom is that the burning of the offices inside
the towers eventually caused the failure of the steel
structure. It is well known that steel eventually melts with
high enough temperatures. Watching the impact of the aircraft
on the towers, it is apparent that within seconds all or most
of the jet fuel exploded and burned when the aircraft crashed.
The highest temperatures occurred at this time, and this is
when the steel was most likely to have melted. The secondary
fires from the office furniture and supplies are very unlikely
to have reached high enough temperatures to melt the steel. The
steel came from Japan and was designed to withstand high
temperatures and was protected by concrete insulation to
withstand high temperatures.

The South Tower took a blow near the corner of the building
spraying half the fuel that exploded outside the tower.
Temperatures were at their greatest at this point within the
corner of the building, and the steel should have lost its
strength at this point toppling the building over on its side
or at least dropping that part of the floor, but it stood up.
Hundreds of expert rescue personnel entered the buildings and
started conducting operations assuming the buildings were safe
from collapse. Emergency sprinkler systems appeared to be
functioning even on upper floors. After the initial impacts,
little if any open flames are apparent as people conduct an
orderly evacuation. Several people who had evacuated the
buildings claimed they heard public address announcements that
the fire was under control and they could return to their
offices. Some people chose to return to work in the building
rather than continue the evacuation, because it was thought the
buildings were now! safe. Suddenly without warning the South
Tower collapses. Van Romero vice president for research at New
Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology states, "The collapse
of the towers resembled those of a controlled implosion caused
by high explosives on buildings and other structures. The
detonations could have been caused by a small amount of
explosive put in more than two points in each of the towers. It
could have been a relatively small amount of explosives placed
in strategic points. The MIT faculty announced that "The
structure was still good" after the planes hit"

The towers have exterior columns that were damaged by the
aircraft, but the key to the buildings strength is its inner
tubes. These may have eventually melted losing their strength,
or explosives may have destroyed them? The towers steel cores
were protected by several centimeters of cement-based
insulation. It is my contention having worked for several
engineering firms that the firemen's expertise was correct. The
buildings should not have collapsed from the fire, that some
other factors were involved. These could be faulty
construction, failure to follow the fire codes, or that the
World Trade Center was again attacked with high explosives like
it had been several years before. Osama Bin Laden is an
experienced structural engineer and terrorist. The aircraft
attacks may have actually covered up the actual explosions that
destroyed the buildings. The explosives may have been planted
in the confusion. Two hundred and thirty firemen who came into
the buildings and sta! rted fire and rescue operations were
killed along with almost one hundred police officers. I watched
several interviews with eight firemen who survived and none
thought the Towers would collapse. Further investigation of the
catastrophe is warranted. Thanks to PsyOpNews.com.

UFOs ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER VIDEOS

Peter Davenport NUFORC writes several people reported seeing
UFOs in the video of the crashes into the World Trade Center.
We have looked at many videos and still photos of the WTC
attack, and we believe that none of the allegedly anomalous
objects appears to us to be UFO-related. The tiny white object
seen above Tower 1 at the time of the first impact appears to
us to be a helicopter on the near side of the tower and
resultant fireball, flying from left to right.

The fuzzy, indistinct object seen just to the right of the
fireball erupting from Tower 2 (southern tower) is more
difficult to ascribe to anything we are familiar with, but our
suspicion is that the object(s) may be the engine(s) from UAL
Flight 175/Boeing 767 which, because of their mass, penetrated
through the building well ahead of the fireball and other parts
of the aircraft. We express our profound sympathy to the many
thousands of individuals whose loved ones perished in this
tragedy. Thanks to Peter B. Davenport, Director National
Reporting Center.

PENNSYLVANIA DISK

GRANTVILLE -- My 12 year old daughter came home from school and
said that she had to tell me something and that she thought I
would not believe her. She proceeded to tell me that she saw
two alien saucers approach our area on August 29, 2001, while
waiting for the bus. She said, "One had a sparkly light that
came out the bottom of one of the ships in a tubular shape,
that went towards the ground and stayed there for about 15
seconds and came back up the ship. Then both ships left the
area going away from our house." My daughter is not the
imaginative type, and she is afraid that something will happen
to her or her family. She prayed that whole day that nothing
would happen, and she cannot sleep well ever since it happened.

OHIO TWO FLYING TRIANGLES

MARIETTA -- The witness reports, "I was traveling east towards
my home on August 29, 2001, when I noticed an airplane from the
local airport. I was nearing Wal-Mart at around 9:20 PM, when I
noticed something just seemed out of place. The object was
traveling very fast, and its shape just didn't look right. I
realized it was not a routine flight, and it was coming from
the wrong direction. It was now flying directly towards my car
and had five lights on it, a blue light was on the very front
of it, a white light just below the blue one, 2 white lights on
either side, and a flashing light in the center of it. As it
flew directly over my car, I slowed down, and I noticed other
cars in front of mine slow down also, so I know I was not the
only one who saw it. It finally passed over my car, and there
was no sound. I could see the triangular shape very clearly and
it was totally black against the moonlit sky. The back had no
indications of exhaust or smoke. The back was co! ncave in shape
looking sort of like a boomerang but more triangular. I could
now see only four lights, the three white ones, and the bluish
white flashing light in the center. I was shocked when a second
flying triangle quickly followed the first. They both were
moving at the same speed and 1000 foot altitude. They were
separated by about 1000 feet and were moving very fast probably
above 300 to 400 mph. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC

GEORGIA DISKS ON THE NIGHT OF THE CRASHES.

GRIFFIN -- I was getting home from band practice on September
11, 2001, the night that all the crashes happened and looking
around I looked to the north and saw two disks with lights on
the edge through some clouds at 8:45 PM. I was surprised
because, I knew they were supposed to be grounded. They had
lights on them that changed in Sync from blue to green. They
darted around each other for about 10-15 seconds before I lost
track of them. I was really freaked out and I felt like this
needed to be shared. I am very serious about this report.
Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com.

INDIANA LOW HOVERING DISC

ZIONSVILLE -- The witnesses report seeing a saucer shaped craft
on September 1, 2001. It had solid white lights at the ends and
bottom, flashing white light on the top. We approached by car
at 9:30 PM, and the object appeared to be standing still and
not moving. The object hovered low then disappeared completely
as we got closer.

TERRE HAUTE -- The reports seeing an elongated off-white
iridescent oval shaped object that appeared in the center of
the clear sky, going silently to the west at 4:57 AM. I could
make out an apparent dome-like structure on top before it went
out of view about five seconds later. The object was two inches
across at arm's length. Estimating 60 tangent at 500 feet away
at ground level=866 feet high. The same witness reported a
minute later seeing a faint light green sphere change direction
towards the south, almost as if it noticed I was observing it.
I say this for two reasons, as it shifted in direction directly
between the trees in front of me, about 60 feet away, and in an
instant stopped then accelerated three times, in about as many
feet. Either it moved faster than my eyes could track it, or it
seemed to vibrate or shimmer losing it's round shape while in
motion. It then resumed course to the southeast. Even though it
was very small for it's altitude. Using tange! nt at 65 degrees
50 feet away at ground level=107 feet high. The size was a
thumbnail at arm's length. (Peter Davenport comments that both
reports came from the same source. We do not understand how
anyone would be able to determine distances, altitudes, and
angles with the precision implied by this case.)

WISCONSIN FLYING TRIANGLE

GREENVILLE -- On September 23, 2001, the witness said, "I was
traveling south on US 45 just south of the city of Greenville
in Winnebago County. I noticed an aircraft flying south
parallel to me that had its landing lights on at 10:00 PM. The
aircraft made a sharp right turn and headed back to the north.
As we approached the aircraft near the intersection of 150 and
45, it appeared the aircraft had stopped moving. As we got
closer we could definitely see that it was not moving and that
it was hovering at about 400-500 feet high. Other vehicles were
traveling south on US 45 and were slowing down also because of
what they were seeing. It appeared that it was no more than 1/4
mile away on the right side of the road hovering over farm
fields. The aircraft was shaped like a triangle with three or
four bright white lights on two sides and two red blinking
lights. Thanks to UFOWisconsin by Duane W
http://www.ufowisconsin.com/county/reports/r2001_0923_winnebago
.html for drawing

ILLINOIS UFO

CRETE -- On September 1, 2001, the witness reports seeing a UFO
hovering over an open field at only 100 feet above the ground
at 12:30 AM. The witness was driving his truck, when the UFO
moved quickly upward and away from roadside. It was a dim
yellowish white in color and the underbelly was brighter in
color and definition. The object was the size of 1 1/2 buses in
length. I did not believe in UFOs until this happened. I was in
total awe of how an object of its size moved and changed
direction so fast. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC

NEBRASKA DAYLIGHT FLYING TRIANGLE

OMAHA -- The witness was traveling on Crown Point Road on
August 29, 2001, near the Blair High Road intersection, when he
saw a black shape moving through the air almost directly east.
The witness has many years of Air Force experience and
familiarity with the air traffic patterns of the area. He
stated, "My immediate presumption was this had to be either a
dark colored B1 or possibly B2 bomber heading in for a landing
at Offutt AFB. Then, to my utter surprise, the object 'banked'
giving me an edge on view; and what I now saw was a very long,
narrow angled black triangle. Having seen number of 747s at
that distance, I would estimate it at about that length of 231
feet. It was clearly not the shape of a B2, nor a B1, because
the only time it's wings are back in a 'delta' type
configuration is when it is flying at high speed (which this
craft was not). Second, because the shape was way too narrow
and triangular. I was going to stop and keep watching this
craft, but I first! looked down to my Van's clock to see the
exact time, and when I looked up, the craft was gone." Thanks
to NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

KANSAS ORBS

COLDWATER -- Pat Wells saw an amazing orb in the western sky
with his 30-70 binoculars on October 1, 2001, at 4:26 AM. It
stayed stationary for fifteen or so minutes then flew west. The
light was intense. Pat says, "I was looking above the western
horizon about 20 degrees and saw on orb with red white and
yellowish flashing lights within and revolving it then moved
west pretty dam fast." I would be interested in any other
sightings. God bless America. Thanks to Pat pwells@rh.net

ARKANSAS FLYING LIGHTS

LITTLE ROCK -- Kaleeh Rodgers. E-mailed that, "My friend
Kristen and I were outside around midnight on September 31,
2001, trying to get my telescope ready to look at the
satellites. We heard you could see them then. Kristen screamed,
"WHAT'S THAT?" I looked up and I saw these green, red and blue
lights blinking green, red, and then blue. Then all the lights
came on. Then they would all go off, and blink again, following
the same pattern each time. This "craft" hovered over us for
about 30 seconds to a minute, then flew off into the night sky
faster than any plane, I have ever seen. One of my interests is
planes. Thanks to Kaleeh Rodgers.

COLORADO MINI UFO FLAP

SALIDA -- Seems we are having a mini-flap of sightings here in
the San Luis Valley, which, appears to have commenced with Tim
Edwards' on September 10, 2001, with the sighting and
videotaping of a triangular object cruising over Salida. On
September 22, visiting Texas hunters at the San Luis Lakes
observed a "huge moon-sized, glowing ball hovering to the north
over head the Dollar Lakes. This is the supposed location of
the sipapu or "place of emergence" for the Pueblo Indians. The
object appeared to extend two bright beams of light into the
lakes. Two other witnesses at the Great Sand Dunes Oasis
Campground also reported seeing what was probably the same
object. The following morning at 11:30 AM, another witness
(while driving in the Baca development) reported two
disc-shaped objects flying low over the Sangre de Cristos near
Crestone Park. When a conventional plane flying at a higher
altitude neared their location, both discs appeared to "vanish
into thin air." I am i! nvestigating a number of other reports
from this past week, which I will post after confirmation.
Thanks to Tmv tmv@ctelco.net

CANADA NEW CROP CIRCLES

MIDALE, SASKATCHEWAN -- Three more Crop circle formations about
80 miles northeast of Midale, were formed in wheat and found
September 26, 2001. Whether this is actually three circles in
one formation or three separate formations is not known at this
point. Thanks to CCCRN NEWS psa@look.ca cccrnnews@topica.com

NORWAY UFO LANDS

OSLO -- On September 25, 2001, police in Helgeland, north
central Norway, have been getting a rash of reported UFO
sightings, while a woman in the northern town of Bod insists a
small flying object landed in her garden. Tgersen says several
more people have come forward after news reports carried the
account of three people in the town of Mosjen who dove for
cover when they saw a low-flying, whirling object hurtle
through the night skies On September 23. "We also have several
other witness observations of the same phenomenon in the same
time frame on Sunday," Tgersen said. Other people have
reported sightings of additional UFOs that apparently resemble
small, brightly lit balls. While the larger object over Mosjen
emitted no noise whatsoever, Tgersen says the smaller objects
are reported to have made a hissing sound. But the most
remarkable reports came from the northern city of Bod. There,
a woman went out of her house and a flying object landed on her
lawn, stoo! d there awhile, and then lifted off and flew away.
Two other separate individuals reported the same sighting, at
the same time, on Saturday evening. One of the two was driving
his car when he spotted it flying over Vefsnfjorden, while
another saw it while out on a veranda. Both reported that it
was brightly lit. Thanks to Frode Stran and Gerry FarShores at
www.100megsfree4.com/farshore

MARS TUNNELS

Bill Clark writes, "Thank you for all the information on the
military buildup in Asia in Filer's Files." I think I will stop
reading the newspapers and just wait for your report each week
- it's concise, clear, and with some solid observations! I am a
Ph.D. student of Aerospace Engineering at the University of
Texas at Austin, where most of the Mars data is being analyzed
(at the Center for Space Research). I have been in the middle
of a big debate about Mars. About half of the scientific
community believes that no water could ever have existed on
Mars. The reasoning is not hard to follow.

One of the first objectives of any manned Mars mission will be
to create an atmosphere. The planet's gravity is so small that
this atmosphere would have to be constantly replenished to
remain stable. Now, if there were ever water on the planet, it
would not have remained for very long at all - it would quickly
evaporate, then be lost into deep space because the gravity
could not hold it there. So it is virtually impossible that
water could ever have existed on Mars - especially not in a
huge volume as we have on Earth, for eons; long enough to have
caused all the land features we see now.

An alternate theory, which is presented in great detail on my
web site at http://www.inviticus.com, is that there is a strong
gravity flux in the neighborhood of Mars, sufficient to cause
these patterns on the surface. It would also explain why the
Russians never made it to Mars in six attempts, and why all
three of our most recent missions to Mars have failed (two
crashed, and the third lost half its solar panels in transit).
It is certainly reason to be cautious in our (meaning the US)
current Mars mission, and the UK's upcoming one. I have a
trajectory optimization program on my web site -- with source
code -- if anybody wants to see for himself or herself how
tricky this mission is!

The problem is that, if you accept that the peculiar patterns
on Mars could not have been caused by water, and that they were
caused by this gravitational phenomenon - then it is necessary
to say that this gravity flux may be strong but it is probably
not capable of creating such fine features as we see on the
planet surface. Thus people are even more hesitant to discard
the water wash theory because of what it would mean in the
interpretation of these surface features - i.e., they are not
natural. Thanks to center4cm@earthlink.net (Bill Clark, P.E.)

NETHERLANDS CROP CIRCLE

Nancy Talbot phoned to inform me she had witnessed the
formation of a Crop Circle in the early morning hours of August
21, 2001. Nancy had gone to Holland to visit an amazing young
man called Robert. Nancy was reading in bed at 3:00 AM, when
she heard cattle outside her room making noises. A few minutes
later, they started again but stopped about 3:15 AM. Nancy
noticed her room was brightening like a welders arc light. An
intense column of light was above the field located behind her
bedroom. There were two tubes of light about a foot in diameter
shinning down on the field. The lights went out for a second
and other came down. Nancy jumped out of bed and called for the
young man she was visiting named Robert. He was also awake in
the kitchen and also saw the lights shinning down about 85 feet
away. They rushed outside and there was nothing in the sky or
field. Everything was quiet with no sound, and no smells. They
walked toward the field and just beyond the fence ! was a Crop
Circle in the string beans. It was a 35 foot ellipse (stretched
circle) with a twenty foot long off to one side with a crossbar
at the end, forming a 'T' coming off the ellipse. Nancy thought
she saw some steam rising from the Crop Circle. The next
morning Nancy saw the field from her bedroom window. We
wondered if the Crop Circle had been made so Nancy could see
it. This observation seems more than a coincidence and infers
intelligence at work. Thanks to Nancy Talbot and George
Reynolds Maryland MUFON.

SINGAPORE SAUCER VIDEOTAPED

JURONG WEST -- Residents report seeing a UFO on September 22,
2001, that hovered for 15 minutes over some apartment flats.
The UFO sparked excitement and speculation among the residents,
some of whom called the Channel NewsAsia hotline. Resident
Benjamin Lee captured the object on a video in the distance.
"Then the saucer was just hovering over the buildings, with a
very bright light. "At first we thought it was a chopper, but
the lights were running around the whole thing and it looks
much more like a saucer." It was as wide as the flat window,"
Joanne Lee says, "I didn't believe it, so I used a toy
telescope to look at it. It was very clear, like a plate,
rounded, with blinker lights," another eyewitness, Mr. Tan,
said. I saw it at 9.45 PM. I used a telescope. There were many
lights on the bottom of the saucer. There were three windows.
Fifteen minutes later, it flew off in another direction," Madam
Yong added. A spokesperson from mobile phone company Star Hub
th! ought it could be their lightship, which flew over the Bukit
Timah expressway that night. StarHub said the two 1,000-watt
lights on the lightship are so bright it could have been
mistaken for a UFO. Thanks' to correspondent Christopher Lee
ChannelNewsAsia.com / Singapore and Gerry@FarShores who notes
the 'UFO' could have been an advertising lightship - -
www.100megsfree4.com/farshores

The GREAT UFO/ET CONFERENCE on October 6 & 7, 2001, at the DAYS
INN on Route 206 and NJTP Exit 7, Bordentown, NJ. Saturday
10:00 AM George Filer will be the leadoff speaker concerning
the UFO Disclosure Project, Rick R. Hilberg - the First Three
Decades, Jim Wilson - When UFOs Land, Diana Palmer Hoyt UFOs,
Social Intelligence and Condon Committee, Donald LeeRose -
Occultism in Ufology, Georgio Tsoukalos - Legacy of the Gods,
Antonio Huneeus - UFO Chronicles From South America, Susan
Swiatek - New Abduction Cases, James Moseley - Shockingly Close
To the Truth, Ronald Story -The UFO Encyclopedia Project,
Antonio Huneeus- UFO Chronicles from Europe, George Hansen -
The Trickster and the Paranormal. Call Pat J. Marcattilio at
609 298-6100.

LARGEST UFO CD-ROM IN EXISTENCE The Black Vault has unveiled
thousands of documents relating to the UFO phenomenon. Some,
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ready to browse with high-resolution scans. Easily read and
easily navigated, this research tool will be used for years to
come! To order, call toll free, (866) 828-2858 or outside the
continental US, (818) 886-0131. Order online today,
http://www.blackvaultstore.com

BEFORE YOU BUY OR SELL A HOME SEE MY FREE REPORT All real
estate agents are not the same? Some real estate agents are
part timers and inexperienced while others are experts. When
you are selling or buying your home, you need to make sure you
have the best real estate agent working for you! Remember, the
majority of people do not know the right questions to ask, and
what pit falls can cause major problems. Picking the right real
estate agent can be a wonderful experience, and picking the
wrong one can be a big mistake! Find out, " What you need to
understand before hiring any real estate agent!" To get a free
report, e-mail Majorstar@aol.com.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL for $30 per year by
contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended you for
membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2001 by George A.
Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the
files on their Web Sites provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue
that the item appeared. These reports and comments are not
necessarily the official MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish
to keep your name, address, or story confidential. Caution,
most of these are initial reports and require further
investigation. Regards, George Filer










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   Oct > Oct 3

              Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 14:28:05 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 22:43:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -


 >Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 19:53:50 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center?
 >From: Lan Fleming <LanFleming@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 21:53:49 -0400
 >>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center?

 >>>Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:06:58 -0600
 >>>Subject: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center?
 >>>From: Lan Fleming <LanFleming@houston.rr.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>

 ><snip>

 >>>This may be something that one of the experts on the list (Bruce
 >>>Maccabee?) should take a closer look at.

 >>I did look. Would need better copy and video characteristics
 >>(camera data) etc. to properly evaluate. Might be an object
 >>propelled by explosion.

 >Yes. I suppose that a proper evaluation would require, at the
 >very least, verifying that the frame rate of the original video
 >is what it appears to be on the available clips. Perhaps Fox
 >News removed some frames to decrease the download time for the
 >internet version of the clip. Information on the original video
 >should be available from the news service that recorded it.

The thing which bothers me most about all of these attempts to
read UFO activity into the atrocity (and there are several), is
that all the reports which I have come across (about five now)
are made by people who saw the "anomalous objects" on
video/TV - not one actual eyewitness report. It strikes me that
people are looking for something that they have no cause to
anticipate was there, and trying to bend the facts into their
preconceived expectations.


Regards,


Joe











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                Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... -

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 14:41:33 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 22:47:25 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... -


 >Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 05:15:37 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

 >>From: Adam Lowe <nicap@blueyonder.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...
 >>Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:17:52 +0100

 >>>Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 16:41:19 -0700
 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...

 ><snip>

 >>>I was surprised (and a bit saddened) to hear that the term
 >>>"brit" was in any way pejorative, negative or whatever. I've
 >>>used it many a time, almost as a term of endearment; yes
 >>>something like "yank".

 >>Hi Larry, list.

 >>This is the first time I've heard that 'Brit' is in any way a
 >>negative term for us.

 >>Adam

 >Thanks Adam!

 >This Yank does not want to offend any B***s at all.

 >There are so many words one cannot use any more, for all sorts
 >of reasons. Its a shame really, and so unnecessary in many
 >cases.

Hello, Larry &L List,

When I was in the British Army, many people were awarded
nicknames according to where they came from. At one unit, I was
"Paddy", there were many "Jocks" (Scotland), "Taffs" (Wales),
"Scouses" (Liverpool) "Brummies" (Birmingham), "Geordies"
(Newcastle), etc. In most cases, these were regarded as terms of
endearment, though there were one or two sensitive people who
didn't appreciate the titles as such.

The context also has major influence as to whether or not such
terms should be regarded as dimunitive, "Lousy Pom" is
definitely not an Australian term of brotherly admiration for
the Brits, whereas "Pom" in itself is innoffensive in my
opinion. Anyway, how did we get onto this topic? Have the
"Greys" made a complaint under the inter-galactic alien equal
rights legislation?


Cheers,


Joe









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   Oct > Oct 3

                Re: Open Letter on Politically Correct Use of

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 10:09:08 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 22:49:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Open Letter on Politically Correct Use of


We are the "PC Society of America" and we are the watchdog of
language, now focusing on the UFO community of crackpots and
idiots who think they are (Ha!) interacting with (double Ha!)
aliens.

We object to the use of the derogatory word, "UFO" on the basis
of the fact that it offends those whose names begin and or end
with the same letters. We also object to the use of the term
"experiencers," as a result of the fact that many people
"experience" many things and those who do not "experience" this
abduction phenom do not wish to be associated with the phenom.

We also object to the use of the derogatory phrase, "UpDates" on
the basis of the fact that many people are updated every day, so
why should they be associated with this list of silly people
studying this silly phenom? Huh?

It is suggested that Mr. Errol Bruce-Knapp develop a language
similar to, say, the language that guy "woof" uses on the
Startrek series. But of course, you must not offend the poor
departed soul of Mr. Gene Rodenberry by actually using that
language. Besides, Woof would also be offended, as he is a
person of darker color persuasion.

Oh, and one last thing, I object, most strenuously, to the use
of Dr. James Mortellaro's in-laws as objet d'art in his
etchings. Unless of course, Mr. Tonnies pays Gesundt for the use
of the images of his stupid inlaws. After all, it is an insult
to Dr. and especially Mrs. Gesundt, to use her relations for
sport.

Never mind.  Uh, Mac, can I use your pix superimposed on a
pistol target for use on the range?

Last: We object to the use of the English language when
referring to any of these silly subjects. We suggest that you
strange people invent another language which will not offend the
rest of us.


Dr. K. Kreplock, Ph.D.
Fundamentally Correct and Politically Inoffensive


PS: We almost forgot. Mr. Mortellaro uses the word
       "Guinzoids" when reefering to his four bears. This
       is OK, as he is one.  Thank you.








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   Oct > Oct 3

                        Pope & Rendlesham 'Humanoids'

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 08:09:30 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 22:59:05 -0400
Subject: Pope & Rendlesham 'Humanoids'


 >From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Nick Pope's Weird World October 2001
 >Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 12:39:18 +0100 NICK POPE'S WEIRD WORLD


Dear Nick, Georgina, Listers,

Nick, I have several questions for you. I'm sure Georgina can
clarify this, if you cannot. Did you have prior knowledge of the
information Georgina Bruni presented at the the Leeds
Conference? I am referring specifically to the the USAF reports
of "humanoid" beings seen at the Rendelsham Forest incident? If
so, how do you justify the statement you made in the MOD press
report,


"...This material states that the events were of no
defence significance. I also suggest a PR strategy to help
dispel accusations that there had been a cover-up."?


If you had access to all of the files Georgina Bruni had, and
had no prior knowledge, that strongly suggests that you and your
team were 'out of the loop', doesn't it? Or is this avoidance of
the issue in your reports evidence of a cover-up, or more
misinformation or disinformation intended to squelch the
public's knowledge and/or understanding of what _really_
happened? See below.

<snip>

 >From: Anthony Chippendale <anthonyc@ufon.org>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Leeds Conference Review
 >Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 16:47:10 +0100

 >Review of 20th Leeds International UFO Conference
 >Leeds University - 21 to 23 September 2001
 >By Anthony Chippendale

 >She also revealed that there are now five new written statements by
 >USAF personnel confirming that the incident did occur as reported.
 >These new witnesses confirm that they saw alien "humanoids"
 >inside the craft, which allegedly landed in Rendlesham Forest.
 >Georgina also announced that following extensive research she
 >has discovered that UFOs landed in the forest in the late 1800s
 >and even in the 1600s!! She is currently researching this for
 >more information."

And, from your own synopsis of the Leeds Conference, you failed
to illuminate the issue of the witnessed "humanoids," chosing to
make reference instead to a possible abduction scenario (e.g.,
use of the term, "missing time"). I'd like to know more about
that "missing time," as it relates to the USAF reports of the
Rendlesham Forest incident, as I'm sure it will prove most
interesting to all.

Another question. Were the USAF reports available to you, Nick,
while you were investigating this incident? If not, why not?
Obviously, if Georgina has managed to obtain copies of these
reports, they were (or are not now) considered a national
security issue, so why was this information withheld from the
public initially?

 >...her talk threw up some intriguing clues that
 >some of the USAF witnesses did experience some missing time.
 >Georgina also offered the audience some new information on the
 >involvement of General Gordon Williams and General Charles
 >Gabriel, and showed a series of USAF and MOD documents, drawings
 >and photographs.

As far as the Rendelsham Forest Incident is concerned, using the
Official Secrets Act to justify your failure to disclose these most
important aspects of the case, doesn't wash.


Sincerely,

Sue Strickland










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             Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Jones

From: Sean Jones <Sean.Jones@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 18:15:11 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 23:02:20 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From... - Jones


 >Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 16:41:19 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From....

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: UFOs Cannot Possibly Originate From...
 >>Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 11:24:41 -0500

 >>In deference to you, and of course speaking (well, actually
 >>typing) strictly for myself and not for Sean, I will not use
 >>"Brit" in any further posting.

 >Hello Jerry, John...

 >I was surprised (and a bit saddened) to hear that the term
 >"brit" was in any way pejorative, negative or whatever. I've
 >used it many a time, almost as a term of endearment; yes
 >something like "yank".

I am aghast that anyone, especially a Brit could take offence at
the term Brit. I also agree with Jerry and Larry, neither is
"Yank" a derogatory name. Methinks that John just takes offence
at anything he likes just to stir things up? After all, I am
positive that the term Brit has been used here before.

Heaven knows what John would read into the term "Limey"!


Regards

Sean









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                       USA: UFOS And National Security

From: Alfred Webre <EcoRadio@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 20:39:59 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 23:13:34 -0400
Subject: USA: UFOS And National Security


USA: UFOS AND NATIONAL SECURITY

By Leslie Kean

Full article now at:http://www.ecologynews.com/cometa.html

Thank you.








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                     Re: Something Weird From Tennessee

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 23:23:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 23:23:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Something Weird From Tennessee



 >Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 04:07:07 -0400
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@FUSE.NET>
 >Subject: Something Weird From Tennessee
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >Enclosed is a strange report from Tennessee I received via email
 >early this morning. I responded with a message asking for
 >clarification of the word 'figure.' I could only imagine that
 >his use of the word 'figure' was an effort to describe something
 >difficult to put into words or might have been because of a
 >regional dialect or something similar. I'll try to follow up on
 >this Tennesse report.

 >KY

 >-------------------

 >I am from Wartrace, TN and am a student at Tennessee
 >Technological University. On Sunday, September 23, 2001, at
 >about 7:30 pm, I was passing through the outskirts of Machester,
 >TN on my way to TTU. I saw a glowing figure in the sky but
 >didn't really think anything about it. It was already dark
 >outside. As I approached the figure I noticed that it was moving
 >or should I say floating. It was close enough to the ground to
 >where I could make out what it looked like. I looked like a
 >fireball that had a sort of "cap" on top. The "cap" was like a
 >cone with the tip cut off, it was flattened out at the top. The
 >"cap" fit on the fireball like figure. The UFO had a yellowish
 >orange glow to it. I watched it float over my truck and out into
 >a field and away until I couldn't see it anymore. It never
 >really shot away really fast, just kept a constant, yet quick
 >speed. I didn't understand it because people haven't pictured a
 >figure like this one before (to my knowledge). I guess it could
 >have been something else, but I have never seen anything like
 >it. Sorry I reported it so late but I didn't know exactly what
 >to do. Maybe you'll know what I should do or maybe you are just
 >the one to tell. Let me know what you think about this or what
 >you can find out. E'mail me back at jva0542@tnech.edu as soon as
 >possible. Thanks for your time and understanding. Maybe you can
 >bring me to a better understanding of what I saw.

 >Thanks again,

 >(name and email address deleted for privacy)

 >-------------------

 >Dear (name deleted),

 >I am having trouble understanding your description and
 >especially your use of the term 'figure' to describe this. For
 >example: "the cap fit on the fireball like a figure" seems to
 >have nothing that could make sense to me or illustrate an image
 >workable from a basic framework to reference from. The word
 >'figure' as is commonly used might indicate arms, body and legs,
 >such as "stick figure." Could you kindly help out with a
 >clarification of this?


 >Thanks for taking the time to report this,

 >Kenny Young



Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 00:12:42 -0400
From: Kenny Young <ufo@FUSE.NET>
Subject: reply from the Tennessian
To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

See earlier message and follow up question about the use of the
word 'figure' -- KY

see: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2001/oct/m01-010.shtml

========= REPLY PASTED BELOW ============


Sorry about the confusion. I guess 'object' would have been
easier to understand rather than 'figure'. I was in middle
Tennessee about 20 minutes north of Manchester when I saw the
UFO. I know I said fireball, but it was probably more of a
gassious ball than a fireball. This is sort of like what
the 'cap' looked liked like that sat upon the gas ball.

    ----
  /      \
/ .....  \

The gas ball sat right underneath the 'cap' and was almost
the same width as the cap, maybe just a little larger. The
gas ball was round also. Man I wished I had a camera or
something that night. Thank you for your time.






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   Oct > Oct 3

                        [lunascan] Objects Near Moon?

From: Francis Ridge <slk@evansville.net>
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 19:24:41 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 23:26:10 -0400
Subject: [lunascan] Objects Near Moon?



FYI,

http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/lunar_sightings.htm


Fran

http://members.evansville.net/slk/lunascan.html
http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/


----------------------------------------------------------------


THE LUNASCAN PROJECT (TLP): An Earth-Based Telescopic Imaging
(EBTI) program using live and recorded CCD technology to
document and record Lunar Transient Phenomena (LTPs).

The Lunascan Project HomePage:
http://www.evansville.net/~slk/lshomepage.html

The Project's Mission Statement:
http://www.evansville.net/~slk/miss.html










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   Oct > Oct 4

                             UFO Over Singapore

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 00:43:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 00:43:17 -0400
Subject: UFO Over Singapore

http://sg.cna.mediacorpnews.com/articles/2001/09/24/singaporenews5205.htm


24 September 2001 1540 hrs (GMT) 2340 hrs (SST)

'UFO' Sighted Over Jurong West
by Bridgette See


Residents in Jurong West saw a strange object in the sky on
Saturday night, describing it an unidentified flying object that
hovered for as long as 15 minutes over some blocks of flats.

The UFO sparked excitement and speculation among the residents,
some of whom called the Channel NewsAsia hotline.

Resident Benjamin Lee captured the object on a video camera, but
by the time the camera began rolling, it had moved some distance
away.

"They were shouting and said some flying saucer over the place
so I just came out and saw the thing," he said.

"They said, 'Take your view cam.' So I started taking down the
picture. Then the saucer was just hovering over the top of the
block, a very bright light.

"At first I thought it was a chopper. Everybody was saying it's
a helicopter but after looking at the lights - the lights were
running around the whole thing - it looks much more like a
saucer." Mr Lee said.

"I was in the kitchen when I saw the saucer. It was as wide as
the flat window," added Joanne Lee.

"I didn't believe it, so I used a toy telescope to look at it.
It was very clear, like a plate, rounded, with blinker lights,"
another eyewitness, Mr Tan, said.

"I saw it at 9.45 pm. I used a telescope. There were many lights
on the bottom of the saucer. There were three windows. Fifteen
minutes later, it flew off in another direction," Madam Yong
added.

A spokesperson from mobile phone company StarHub thought it
could be their lightship, which flew over the Bukit Timah
expressway that night.

StarHub said the two 1,000-watt lights on the lightship are so
bright it could have been mistaken for a UFO.

Residents in Bukit Timah apparently saw a similar object
but concluded that it was the back of the lightship.








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                    'UFO' Is Trash Bags With Glow Sticks

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 00:48:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 00:48:44 -0400
Subject: 'UFO' Is Trash Bags With Glow Sticks

http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,325007183,00.html?

Utah News

Tuesday, October 02, 2001

'UFO' Is Trash Bags With Glow Sticks

TOOELE -- A glowing, unidentified flying object seen in Tooele's
skies Saturday night was identified not as otherworldly, but as
a hoax.

The 10-to-15-feet long, 4-to-5-feet wide cylinder was first
spotted by a Tooele police officer at 12:59 p.m. about 800 feet
in the air.

"From his vantage point, he thought it was over the (Tooele
Army) Depot," Tooele Police Sgt. Lance Sutherland said. "You
couldn't make it out through binoculars."

A second look, however, showed the object was flying over 900
South and 200 West. "It was definitely over Tooele," Sutherland
said.

About 20 minutes later, the object lost some of its buoyancy and
began to float down. Officers were able to determine it was
several garbage bags filled with helium. Glow sticks were
attached to the bottom.

"It must have been affixed to the ground at one point because it
had some fishing line attached to it," Sutherland said. Officers
grabbed the fishing line and reeled the object in, putting an
end to the spectacle about 1:25 a.m.

"It was just a hoax," Sutherland said. There are no suspects in
the case.








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                  Re: Pope & Rendlesham 'Humanoids' - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 23:45:45 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 09:51:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Pope & Rendlesham 'Humanoids' - Gates


 >From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Pope & Rendlesham
 >Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 08:09:30 -0600


 >>From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Nick Pope's Weird World October 2001
 >>Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 12:39:18 +0100 NICK POPE'S WEIRD WORLD


 >Dear Nick, Georgina, Listers,

 >Nick, I have several questions for you. I'm sure Georgina can
 >clarify this, if you cannot. Did you have prior knowledge of the
 >information Georgina Bruni presented at the the Leeds
 >Conference? I am referring specifically to the the USAF reports
 >of "humanoid" beings seen at the Rendelsham Forest incident? If
 >so, how do you justify the statement you made in the MOD press
 >report,

As I recall the phraseology was 5 reports by USAF people.
We don't know if they were written at the time of the incident, or last
year.


 >"...This material states that the events were of no
 >defence significance. I also suggest a PR strategy to help
 >dispel accusations that there had been a cover-up."?

I am curious what Nick has to say. If the reports were written
at the time it is very possible and perhaps likely that the
USAF reports were not "shared" with the British and visa-versa.
The bottom line may be that to Sue the fact that witnesses allegedly
saw "humanoids" in the craft still would not make it something
of "defense significance." But had the craft intruded into the
nuclear weapons bunker or flightline etc etc that may have justified
it to be of "defense significance." It also can be that the "party line"
is denial.

 >If you had access to all of the files Georgina Bruni had, and
 >had no prior knowledge, that strongly suggests that you and your
 >team were 'out of the loop', doesn't it? Or is this avoidance of
 >the issue in your reports evidence of a cover-up, or more
 >misinformation or disinformation intended to squelch the
 >public's knowledge and/or understanding of what _really_
 >happened? See below.

The question boils down to when were the reports written,
where they in the so called British document release, or
were they statements that came about during the current
investigation?

 ><snip>

 >>From: Anthony Chippendale <anthonyc@ufon.org>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Leeds Conference Review
 >>Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 16:47:10 +0100

 >>Review of 20th Leeds International UFO Conference
 >>Leeds University - 21 to 23 September 2001
 >>By Anthony Chippendale

 >>She also revealed that there are now five new written statements by
 >>USAF personnel confirming that the incident did occur as reported.
 >>These new witnesses confirm that they saw alien "humanoids"
 >>inside the craft, which allegedly landed in Rendlesham Forest.
 >>Georgina also announced that following extensive research she
 >>has discovered that UFOs landed in the forest in the late 1800s
 >>and even in the 1600s!! She is currently researching this for
 >>more information."

Obviously Nick wouldn't have a copy of those reports in the so
called official file.

 >And, from your own synopsis of the Leeds Conference, you failed
 >to illuminate the issue of the witnessed "humanoids," chosing to
 >make reference instead to a possible abduction scenario (e.g.,
 >use of the term, "missing time"). I'd like to know more about
 >that "missing time," as it relates to the USAF reports of the
 >Rendlesham Forest incident, as I'm sure it will prove most
 >interesting to all.

People highlight what strikes them. For example in one account
the so called humanoids. In another account so called missing
time. Perhaps in another account of the same story we will hear
something else emphasized.

 >Another question. Were the USAF reports available to you, Nick,
 >while you were investigating this incident? If not, why not?
 >Obviously, if Georgina has managed to obtain copies of these
 >reports, they were (or are not now) considered a national
 >security issue, so why was this information withheld from the
 >public initially?

 >>...her talk threw up some intriguing clues that >>some of the
USAF witnesses did experience some missing time. >>Georgina also
offered the audience some new information on the >>involvement
of General Gordon Williams and General Charles >>Gabriel, and
showed a series of USAF and MOD documents, drawings >>and
photographs.

 >As far as the Rendelsham Forest Incident is concerned, using
 >the Official Secrets Act to justify your failure to disclose
 >these most important aspects of the case, doesn't wash.

If folks truly understood how much trouble you can get into for
disclosing classified information whether in the US under US
law, or in UK under the official secrets act, you would
understand Nicks comment. Once the documents are declassified,
you can then talk about what has been declassified and or
released publicly. Like people in the Stealth fighter program
who didn't talk about it until it was officially disclosed.


Cheers,

Robert








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   Oct > Oct 4

                 Re: [lunascan] Objects Near Moon? - Cammack

From: Diana Cammack <cammack@eomw.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 09:08:38 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 09:58:29 -0400
Subject: Re: [lunascan] Objects Near Moon? - Cammack


 >To: lunascan@yahoogroups.com
 >From: Francis Ridge <slk@evansville.net>
 >Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 19:24:41 -0700
 >Subject: [lunascan] Objects Near Moon?

 >FYI,

 >http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/lunar_sightings.htm

 >Fran

List, the following is clipped off the above website:


      "They are what I would call circular in shape and metallic.
      I know this because tonight at approx. 7:15 pm MDT
      (Mountain Daylight Time). I noticed a flap of these UFOs.
      Several flew the same direction, the rest flew somewhat
      independently. The seventh one seen actually slowed a
      little, I noticed a glint of sunlight off of its obvious
      disc-like shape, it made a sharp turn and kept going.

      In all, I've so far seen a total of about 15. I saw seven
      (the flap) in about a timespan of only 30 seconds. It was,
      without doubt, the most amazing event I've witnessed in my
      life. The rest of my family has been hooked on the
      telescope and each has seen at least a few.

      I should also mention that these objects 1) travel at
      different altitudes above the lunar surface, and many seem
      to travel at the same height as others (as in predefined
      flight patterns), 2) they all appear to be the same shape,
      apparently circular, but it is still unclear if they are
      all the same size, and 3) they have been seen to make
      intelligent maneuvers and course changes. "


My question, how would anyone be able to tell the altitude of
any object crossing in front of the moon, let alone that several
were at different altitudes?

Secondly (unless these objects were close to earth) any object
and its (circular) shape and composition (metallic) would have
to be huge to be seen if near the moon, right?

Can astronomers
see things near the surface of the moon that clearly?

Please explain to this lay(wo)man...


Diana
In Malawi









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   Oct > Oct 4

                UFO-Like Sightings "Reflection Off Satellite"

From: Kelly <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 06:51:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 10:06:16 -0400
Subject: UFO-Like Sightings "Reflection Off Satellite"

National Post - Canada
Thursday, Oct. 4 2001
p. A15

UFO-like sightings blamed on reflection off satellite

OWEN SOUND - Flashing lights in the sky over southern Georgian
Bay, Ontario, on Tuesday night were not a flying saucer, experts
said yesterday.  The sightings stopped traffic and drew dozens
of calls to authorities.  But Geoff Chester, of the U.S. Naval
Observatory, said the lights were the sun reflecting from the
dish antennas on a communications satellite.









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              Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -

From: Lan Fleming <LanFleming@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 08:21:00 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 10:11:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 14:28:05 +0100
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -

 >The thing which bothers me most about all of these attempts to
 >read UFO activity into the atrocity (and there are several), is
 >that all the reports which I have come across (about five now)
 >are made by people who saw the "anomalous objects" on
 >video/TV - not one actual eyewitness report.

Huh? Eyewitness reports are universally considered as
"anecdotal" evidence. Video recordings are documentary evidence.

 >It strikes me that
 >people are looking for something that they have no cause to
 >anticipate was there, and trying to bend the facts into their
 >preconceived expectations.

I certainly did not anticipate any such thing and I was not
looking for it.

A news video shows what appears to be an object moving at a
speed far too great for it to have been seen by anyone at the
time. Saying so is not "bending the facts;" it simply is stating
them.

If frames were removed from the available video clip to decrease
download time, then the actual elapsed time in the video
sequence would have been greater than it appears when measured
on the clip, making the speed of the object lower and therefore
less "anomalous". Whether or not that's what happened could be
determined only by more objective evaluation.

Foggy pontifications sure won't do it.









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   Oct > Oct 4

                Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 11:17:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 17:01:48 -0400
Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Aldrich


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 15:09:16 -0400
 >UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 ->Velez

 >>From: Steve Bassett <ExPPAC@aol.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 12:00:09 -0400
 >>Subject: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001

John, you are a good-hearted person who thinks the best of
everyone, a good quality in a person. A much ruder and cruder
reponse to XPPAC is below.

 >Hello All,

 >I do wish to comment, in this forum, on>statements made in the
 >X-PPAC Update. Steve, please feel free to>respond (or not) here
 >on the UpDates List to any of my comments. I>have teed-off and
 >taken my best swing. Please feel welcome & free>to do like-wise.


 >Steve wrote:

 >>Time to Coalition

 >>With the drive for congressional hearings moved to the side by
 >>world events, this is a time for organizations within the field to come
 >>together with each other and possibly with receptive organizations
 >>tangential to the issues at hand.

 >>Only a broadbased structure with political clout will be able to
 >>influence disclosure and post-disclosure government
 >>policies and actions.

 >Steve, this is what _should_ have been done from the very
 >_beginning_! It's one of the things that myself and others have
 >been belly-aching about since day one. It's all being done
 >bass-ackwards. The witnesses are being screened _after_ they
 >have been introduced and presented publicly. Consensus is being
 >sought _after_ the fact.

 >C'mon man.

 >If "consensus" had been sought from the _start_ from the major
 >UFO organizations and from the UFO community at large, the
 >effort could have been backed by many more>people. It could have
 >been much more representative and as a direct result, more
 >popular, coordinated, and bottom line 'effective' than it has been.

 >The problem with all that is; Greer would have had to give them
 >some say so in how the thing>would have been handled and
 >presented. 'Who' represented the UFO>community before our
 >elected officials would have been put up for a general vote. I
 >never would have voted for Greer. For example: put "Greer" and
 >say "Richard Hall" or "Richard Haines" on the same ballot for
 >the job. Tell me who _you_ think>gets to enjoy a landslide
 >mandate to be our collective representative(s) before congress.
 >It's no contest. (No lo contiende) And a 'no->brainer' for
 >those voting.

 >A broad-based organization with strong consensus, internal
 >unity, and backing by its members would have been the benefit of
 >doing it democratically - as opposed to>presenting the public
 >with a monarch/dictator) from the very beginning. And that's
 >just some of the ways the whole thing _should_ have gone down.
But it didn't. Now, after the fact, you have to scurry around
 >seeking the self-same>"consensus" and strong popular backing
 >which should have been the _first_ thing on the need-to-do
 >list. Not the tenth thing. Most, if not all, of this popular
 >support that you seek should have>already been in place.

 >To get the kind of "broad-based" backing you seek, you need to
allow folks to have a say in things. To actively participate in
the process.>That's the 'American Way' Steve. A panel/group of
 >bright, experienced individuals heading up this thing, who can
 >nurture and direct it properly,>would almost ensure its success
 >on the front end.Folks who have been _voted_ in to the
 >positions by members of the UFO community and its many
 >organizations would enjoy enormous popular support. It just will
 >not go to a self-appointed "representative" with a personal
 >political agenda. Much of which is unrelated to actual UFO
 >disclosure anyway.

 >And while there is a break in the 'action'...

 >The witnesses also need to be>thoroughly/properly screened by
 >some of the best people available in ufology. For example: If
 >you put guys like Kevin Randle, Stan Freidman, or a cop like
 >Royce Myers on a job like this, I can promise you that whatever
 >witnesses survive their screening process will be bullet-proof,
 >air-tight-certifiable, and solid gold. That isn't the case now
 >though is it?

 >Now is the time to start from scratch.

 >Seek broad-based consensus. Nominate representatives that folks
 >can then vote for. Devise a plan of attack that will actually
 >_accomplish_ something - other than speaking tours and tape
 >sales. Carefully screen the witnesses. Secure
 >signatures/petitions via the Internet with thousands of
 >subscribers all addressed to members of
 >congress _requesting_open, public hearings. Dance naked in the
 >pale moon light... do it all. But do it _right_.

 >With the strong backing and consensus of the all the people
 >your problems will be solved. _Before_ you send anybody to
 >represent  us all in front of _our_ elected officials, ask _us_
 >who _we_would like that person(s) to be. Start by making this a
 >more democratic and  representative process and watch how the
 >numbers of supporters begins to swell. Before Gersten came
 >along, the membership numbers in CAUS had been sky-rocketing.
 >This whole  process could enjoy that same kind of popular
 >support too. But not as it presently exists.

 >I can't tell you how I long to throw my support>behind a
 >group-effort to secure hearings for total UFO information
 >disclosure. Like many, many,  others, I am still waiting for
 >that  kind of truly grass-roots representative movement>to come
 >along. In me, you have a potentially powerful, and vocal
 >advocate. And I'm not just passing gas; I have a popular and
 >busy website and I'm on the radio (50,000 Watt>station with a
 >big Internet following) twice a month. Haven't you ever asked
 >yourself why  guys like me, (and there are plenty,) are giving
 >you all kinds of static - busting your chops - instead of
 >throwing strong support behind you? Do you ever _really_listen_
 >to what is  being said/expressed? I sometimes wonder if you
 >dismiss it all as pure malcontent blather. If you do, you are
 >committing a serious error in judgement about some good people.

 >Regards, respectfully submitted, a 'true' friend>who cares,...

 >John Velez, speaking strictly for myself

Speaking for myself, of course, I don't care if people have spit
on me and beat me up and stomped me in an alley way, if they
came up with some rational approach to Congress I would be
leading the charge, the first one over the top.

But not here and not now. There have been many words spoken and
written about The Disclosure Project some in ignorance, and some
as mis-representation, and some as complete _non-disclosure_.

Ignorance first.

We were treated here to the Sheehan story according to Grant
Cameron. Unfortunately, Cameron couldn't even get the Sheehan's
story straight. Cameron had President Carter using the
Congressional Research Office. When Richard Hall posed some
rather modest demures, Cameron would hear nothing of these and
even questioned how Hall would know anything at all about the
subject. Cameron knew how government worked by gum, and who the
hell was Richard Hall to tell him otherwise. In the end Sheehan
didn't say Carter contacted the Congressional Research Office
and many other things put forward by Cameron didn't match
Sheehan's version. As with the supposed incident of the Air
Force officer's alleged comment, "Go shit in your hat!" in
answer to the question on Roswell, it seem that fact checking is
not one of Cameron's strong suits, he would rather accept
outright as fact anything that agrees with his particular world
view. I don't find any apology to Richard Hall by Grant Cameron
and any messages setting the record straight.

The whole-hearted endorsement by the Disclosure Project of his
latest essay on the UFOs and the Clinton administration will, of
course, cause problems in Congressional hearings. (More on this
later.)

Some supporters of the Disclosure Project have stated the
following, all of which are wrong:

1) There have never been Congressional hearings on UFOs before.
Starting in at least in 1956, there were hearings held on the
subject. Two public hearings were held by the 1960s, one by the
House Armed Services Committee and the other, the Rouse
symposium was widely published including in a book by John
Fuller.

Even Bassett, supposedly ace lobbyist can't get it right: "The
only Congressional hearings held previously were conducted in
1968 by the House Science and Astronautics Committee (90th
Congress, 2nd Session, Committee Print No. 7. "Symposium
Unidentified Flying Objects.";)" Not very good on fact checking
are you, Steve?

2) "Greer is the only one doing something." No not at all true,
a complete and total insult to Dick Hall who has worked on this
aspect for decades. In fact, exactly who was it that came in and
tried to pass off "The Best Available Evidence" as his? Greer
only stopped when threaten by laywers. (No respect for other's
property, but look at the copyright restrictions on the
Disclosure Project. Highly restrictive!)

"Well, old experienced ufologists are just jealous." Emphasis on
the old. No, they have been through this before and have an idea
how things work. They also are able, from bitter experience, to
spot frauds and yarn-spinners which seems to be beyond the
ability of those running the Disclosure Project.

To nail down facts in cases takes time and money. Most of us,
use our grocery money to try to get at the facts. I know that
many of us work overtime so that we may take a few weeks out and
go on the road and get corroboration of witnesses' statements -
not just completely accepting any tall-tale that comes along.

"Collecting newspaper clippings is fine, but Greer is doing real
work." Sorry, if I gave the impression, all I do is collect
clippings. We are working on a number of cases which are
important to understanding UFO history, UFOs and the government,
and the UFO phenomenon (a) and a lot of this involves time
consuming and expensive efforts.

Ignorance is strength for Disclosure Project supporters.

Misrepresentations:

1) One of the first misrepresentation was, of course, the misuse
of the The Best Available Evidence by Greer.

2) In the Connecticut MUFON newsletter several years ago was a
story about how Robert Dean, Steven Greer and Richard Hall of
FUFOR were working on a disclosure project. When I sent this to
Dick Hall, he, of course, demanded a correction. Seems that this
representation was not CT MUFON's at all, but rather just
repeating what had been put out by the Disclosure Project
associates.

3) Now if you look at the some of the videos in the Disclosure
Project, you will find that they were not done by Greer at el,
but are indeed archived films or done by others.

4) Senator Daniel Inouye is shown on the beginning of the
Disclosure Video, his clip is just dropped in with all the UFO
witnesses. Of course, he wasn't addressing anything to was
remotely related to UFOs. A serious misrepresentation.

5) Many on the Disclosure Project have former affiliation with
instituations such as Stanford Research Institute, but have not
current affiliation. Advertisements purchased on Google and in
representations elsewhere refer to such affiliations, but what
is not mentioned is that these are in the past tense.

Outright NON-Disclosures.

1) Number One on this list is welding on a Far-Left political
agenda item concerning missile defense. Was there any hint of
such a thing prior to the press conference? Probably, but you
couldn't find any such a thing on the CSETI website. Now maybe
Steven Bassett will tell you different, but since a majority of
congress are for missile defense, it seems rather daffy to
connect this to a UFO hearing. (Many in Congress are opposed to
Bush's missile defense, but still want a missile defense.)

2) Non-disclosure to the public and press at the Press
Conference of the fact that Greer claims he can vector UFOs in
for communication almost at will. (Now people are saying Greer
did this in the past and all that was from his early days.
Sorry, the CSETI site has now changed, such material was on
there this year and well after the Disclosure Project Press
Conference. Nice try to push this down a memory hole. (To harp
on this once again, if you can vector in UFOs, they can be
inspected by various instruments that would absolutely establish
what they were. There would be no need for such a thing as a
Disclosure Project, one could bring absolute proof to bear, not
witnesses' statements.)

3) There was no Hunger Strike for Disclosure, it was Dieting for
Disclosure. Trying to blame the UFO UpDates List for the failure
of this fiasco is beyond belief.

Now to Congressional Hearings and a little war story. Many,
including, apparently the Disclosure Project, think that
Congressmen and Sentators are boobs. Maybe they are! But their
staffs are not and are generally made up of highly competent and
knowledgeable people.

When I was stationed at Fort Sill one of my tasks was to write
enlisted Skill Qualification Tests (SQT) for meteorology. I had
finished my SQT early, it was checked and we had tried it out
using meteorological crewmen assigned to Fort Sill. The tests
were at the printers.

SQTs had become an item of Congressional interest. One of the
important questions was, "Were SQTs measuring soldiers'
competence in their jobs?" The subcommittee concerned had
thought not and wanted the Army to change the tests - _now_. The
Army's interpretation of 'now' was the new tests could be phased
in over a year or longer time frame. During a hearing on certain
military subjects, the SQT issue was to be revisited, and among
the briefers two captains, from Fort Sill, were sent to testify.
Later, in a conference in the colonel's office, I heard the
outcome as it specifically concerned me.

The two captains were only some of the officials to give
testimony on the SQT subject, but they were up early. They
related how behind one congressman, there was this extremely
beautiful woman and went into the details of her physical
perfection. They couldn't keep their eyes off her, and they
thought she must be some congressmen's mistress. Also, seated
next to her was a former Army captain. As the Fort Sill captains
started their testimony, the woman and the former Army captain
started producing documents from briefcases, writing notes to
Congressmen and whispering in their ears.

Many things the captains said were challenged, by the
Congressmen who seemed to know more than the military men did
about the SQT program. The captains remembered the icy stare
from the woman researcher. The Army took some big hits that day,
and the word went out that now meant _now_, not two years from
now. I was ordered to get my tests from the printer and re-write
them immediately in the new format.

So if the members of the Disclosure Project think they can bring
some of the clowns and yarn-spinners they have on their witness
list to Congress and they will pass muster at a Congressional
hearing, they have another think coming. The Disclosure Project,
despite protests to the contrary, did little in vetting their
"witnesses". There are some good ones like Salas, but these will
be lost in the silliness of "38 levels above Top Secret," etc.

Here is my own conspiracy theory on the Disclosure Project - it
is not about disclosure at all. The purpose is to discredit the
UFO phenomenon so badly that no serious person will ever
consider it again. It is constructed so poorly that Congressmen
and Senators will remember how silly some of the claims were
and will never, ever, take up the subject again.

Some of the people on the project are obviously good-hearted,
some may have other motives, but many are obviously duped by
people who think you can mix bad witnesses and good together and
when the dust settles, the Truth will come out. Sorry, you
better bring your best team, and they better be checked six ways
from Thursday, or you will be the laughing stock.

As I said before about people who seem to believe the most
outlandish claims:

"The people who want to believe this sort of thing will never
check dates, or facts, or history, they will just believe any
provocative thing placed in front of them. The hunger for this
sort of thing is insatiable, that why there are hundreds of UFO
conspriacy theories, most contradicting all the others. That
doesn't seem to matter. What matters is they explain things in
nice little neat packages."


Jan Aldrich








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   Oct > Oct 4

               Re: Pope & Rendlesham 'Humanoids' - Strickland

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 09:29:51 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 17:03:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Pope & Rendlesham 'Humanoids' - Strickland


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 23:45:45 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Pope & Rendlesham 'Humanoids'
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Pope & Rendlesham
 >>Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 08:09:30 -0600

 >>>From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Nick Pope's Weird World October 2001
 >>>Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 12:39:18 +0100 NICK POPE'S WEIRD WORLD


Dear Nick, Georgina, Listers,

Another question to Nick and Georgina. What is the written date
shown on the 5 USAF reports outlining the Redelsham Forest
incident? The other questions still stand as asked and awaiting
answers.








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              Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 17:34:30 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 17:17:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -


 >Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 08:21:00 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center?
 >From: Lan Fleming <LanFleming@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>

<snip>

Here is an extract from a post that I made to another list on the
same topic on the 18/9/01:

1. Prior to the attack, NY skies will have been busy with
scheduled aircraft, and helicopter traffic. Many of these will
still have been airborne at the time and shortly after the
incident.

2. At the point of impact, debris will have been thrown out in
all directions.

3. After the impact, any light debris, eg tarpaulins, plastic
carrier bags, paper etc will still have been floating around for
some time.

4. The video images are generally focussed on the towers, not on
any of the several reported objects. This fact, coupled with the
small size of the objects, makes it virtually impossible to
identify them.

5. I have not heard of anyone actually reporting having seen a
UFO at the time-all the "reports" that I have come across are
people observing "something" on the television.

6. Objects that have been identified so far include paper, and a
US fighter which was scrambled in an attempt to intercept the
second aircraft (unfortunately too late).

All of this leads me to the conclusion that there was nothing of
any ufological interest in the sky at the time, and if there
was, the situation is too chaotic to eliminate the other causes
of reports.

 >Huh? Eyewitness reports are universally considered as
 >"anecdotal" evidence. Video recordings are documentary evidence.

Even if a still from the video clearly showed a Ventubian
intergalactic reconnaissance craft Mk.IV, without any eyewitness
reports (of which I would expect many, in daylight hours, over a
busy city), the video would be regarded as highly suspicious,
and not as any kind of evidence.

People do not generally check videos of, for example, scheduled
tower block demolitions in order to identify every piece of
debris that is thrown out from the demolition - such objects are
simply regarded as the sort of debris that you would normally
expect from such an operation.

In my opinion, no matter how hard you study video footage taken
from any angle of view, it will not be possible to eliminate
debris as the origin of any unidentified object. (Other objects,
such as birds/helicopters etc may be identifiable, depending on
the quality of the footage).

What reason is there to suppose that anything in this case is
not debris/conventional objects? Is it a case that people refuse
to believe that humans could inflict such horror on humans, and
are looking for something non-human to blame?

In my view, all this speculation about UFO's being at the scene
detract from the real issues involved.


Regards,

Joe








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 4

                    Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 12:37:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 17:20:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us - Velez


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 15:39:43 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us
 >>Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 14:13:24 +0000

 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:25:50 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 20:22:03 EDT
 >>>>Subject: Re: Appelle - Aliens Among Us
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>>>But then, we shouldn't reject part of the solution because it
 >>>>doesn't cover every case. Kind of like suggesting that aircraft
 >>>>haven't been misidentified as a UFO because some were really
 >>>>weather balloons. Like all aspects of the UFO phenomena, I don't
 >>>>think there is a single explanation that covers everything.

 >>>>And, I've never understood why we all say that 90% of the UFO
 >>>>sightings are explained in the mundane, but all of the
 >>>>abductions must be alien. Couldn't it be that some are, in fact,
 >>>>explanable in terrestrial terms? Not all, but some?

 >>>I'm always doubtfull when somebody claims a simple explanation.

 >>You mean simple explanations like "swamp gas," "ball lightning,"
 >>"fireballs?"

 >Dick:

 >No, I probably could have said "Singular Explanations", which in
 >the case of this human phenomenon are much less likely that
 >Multiple Explanations. Or do you think that each and every
 >flying saucer report since 1947 has been caused by the Romulans?


Hi Bob, hi All,

Speaking of things "Romulan."

I would like to see a nekkid fight scene between Seven-of-Nine
and Vulcan Sub-Commander T'Pol... in Romulan Jello. (Or Klingon
mud.) Now _that_ would be a 'sighting' worth reporting and
investigating.

Just my two cents.

John Velez  ;)



                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."










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              Re: UFO-Like Sightings "Reflection Off Satellite"

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 10:40:27 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 17:22:37 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO-Like Sightings "Reflection Off Satellite"


 >Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 06:51:02 -0400
 >From: Kelly <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
 >Subject: UFO-Like Sightings "Reflection Off Satellite"
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >National Post - Canada
 >Thursday, Oct. 4 2001
 >p. A15

 >UFO-like sightings blamed on reflection off satellite
 >OWEN SOUND - Flashing lights in the sky over southern Georgian
 >Bay, Ontario, on Tuesday night were not a flying saucer, experts
 >said yesterday. The sightings stopped traffic and drew dozens
 >of calls to authorities. But Geoff Chester, of the U.S. Naval
 >Observatory, said the lights were the sun reflecting from the
 >dish antennas on a communications satellite.

Dear EBK, Listers,

This is exactly where I draw the line between being a believer
and being a skeptic. Coming from an abductee, these questions
will seem more in keeping with Dennis Stacy's questioning mind.
So be it.

What time of day was this sighting made, and what compass
direction was the object reported to have been seen and in which
direction was it moving? I've lived, worked, played in that
area, a lot. I've seen the Northern Lights right above my head,
the Milky Way sprayed like window cleaner encrusted with
diamonds, meteor showers so heavy and close, you duck to avoid
"getting hit," and can track all kinds of satellites crossing
without the aid of a telescope. Never _once_ have I seen lights
"flashing" off of a satellite in pitch dark, (supposedly due to
reflection of the suns rays). Therein lies the reason for my
question concerning the time of day or night?

Unless you can tell me which specific satellite can be seen on a
_regular_ basis along Georgian Bay during the early summer,
evening hours with the naked eye, the direction in which it is
consistently moving, and can _repeat_ this scenario, I will
continue to doubt the "experts" "light reflection" theory. I'd
like to witness a repeat of that incident myself. And, I wasn't
even on Georgian Bay that particular day.

Thanks for your answers, in advance.


Sue









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   Oct > Oct 4

                       Re: Filer's Files #40 10-03-01

From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 14:54:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 17:25:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #40 10-03-01


Filer's Files #40 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
October 3, 2001, Majorstar@aol.com.
Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com,

UFO sightings have picked up again in the US and continue in
Norway. UFOs were observed in New Jersey, Pennsylvania,
Georgia, Ohio, Wisconsin, Indiana, Illinois, Nebraska, Kansas,
Arkansas, Colorado, Singapore, and Norway. Crop Circles were
reported in Canada and the Netherlands.

US AND BRITAIN will likely launch attacks within Afghanistan in
the next several days. Small teams of elite US forces, together
with British commandos, have begun operating on the ground
around key targets inside Afghanistan in the first phase of the
US led military offensive. Specialized military reconnaissance
units are focusing on primary targets for potential air and
ground attacks, notably hideouts of the terrorist organization
led by Osama bin Laden and vulnerable bases of Afghanistan's
ruling Taliban militia. These forces are also attempting to
obtain Afghan allies who hate the Taliban. Afghanistan is
involved in a civil war with the Taliban controlling most of
the country and the Northern Alliance holding about 10 percent
of the country in the Northeast. The Northern Alliance will
benefit from an airborne resupply route from Dushanbe,
Tajikistan, to Bagram Air Base. It is likely we are already
using some of their facilities. Uzbekistan and Tajikistan were
once p! art of the Soviet Union, and with prodding from Russia,
may offer bases for US forces. These countries operate
Russian-built, twin-engine An-24s and An-32s transports fly in
supplies and ammunition at night to the Northern Alliance.
Surprisingly, India was the first country to offer the US air
bases to fight the Taliban and also to send in supplies to
support the Northern Alliance. Pakistan is unlikely to allow
bombing attacks from its territory, but will probably allow
aerial tankers and cargo aircraft to operate from there.
Attacks will likely be launched from aircraft carriers at sea.

President George W. Bush said in a White House meeting with
King Abdullah II of Jordan, "He and his military planners had
studied the lessons learned by Russia in its losing struggle
against Afghan rebels in the 1980s." US Special Forces have
begun carrying out scouting missions to pave the way for air
strikes followed by landings by helicopter-borne troops." These
operations involve small teams of four to 12 men, that are
secretly helicopter into Afghan territory. They hide during
daylight and then use night vision equipment to pinpoint
command posts, supply depots, training headquarters and other
targets for US military strikes. At least 2,000 members of the
US Special Forces, including the 75th Ranger Regiment, their
command unit, have deployed during the last week in bases close
to Afghan borders in Pakistan, Uzbekistan, and Tajikistan.
Britain reportedly has its 250-man Special Air Service on
secret missions in northern Afghanistan.

POSSIBLE BOMBING OF WORLD TRADE CENTER?

Lee Robertson, the project structural engineer who helped
design the World Trade Center claims the twin towers were
designed to take the impact of a four engine 707 commercial jet
aircraft. At 8:45 AM, Flight 11, a 767 aircraft crashed into
the center of the North Tower exploding its jet fuel. The fires
continue to burn for 1 hour 27 minutes, but only diminishing
smoke is observed when at 10:30 AM the North Tower suddenly
collapses. At 9:03 AM, Flight 175, a 757 aircraft slams into
the South Tower near the corner of the building spraying most
of the fuel outside the building. The fuel is burned away in
seconds with a huge fireball explosion as most of you have seen
on television. At 9:50 AM, only 47 minutes later the South
Tower collapses. Both buildings successfully withstood the
aircraft's impacts and their devastating explosions of jet
fuel. People in the 80th floors remarked they hardly felt the
impacts. I have spent a great deal of time looking at the video
of th! e tragedy. Something seems wrong. The South Tower who
took less of a hit and much less jet fuel collapses in half the
time it takes the North Tower to collapse. I noticed that just
prior to the collapse of either tower, debris is sent into the
air like an explosion has just occurred.

The general wisdom is that the burning of the offices inside
the towers eventually caused the failure of the steel
structure. It is well known that steel eventually melts with
high enough temperatures. Watching the impact of the aircraft
on the towers, it is apparent that within seconds all or most
of the jet fuel exploded and burned when the aircraft crashed.
The highest temperatures occurred at this time, and this is
when the steel was most likely to have melted. The secondary
fires from the office furniture and supplies are very unlikely
to have reached high enough temperatures to melt the steel. The
steel came from Japan and was designed to withstand high
temperatures and was protected by concrete insulation to
withstand high temperatures.

The South Tower took a blow near the corner of the building
spraying half the fuel that exploded outside the tower.
Temperatures were at their greatest at this point within the
corner of the building, and the steel should have lost its
strength at this point toppling the building over on its side
or at least dropping that part of the floor, but it stood up.
Hundreds of expert rescue personnel entered the buildings and
started conducting operations assuming the buildings were safe
from collapse. Emergency sprinkler systems appeared to be
functioning even on upper floors. After the initial impacts,
little if any open flames are apparent as people conduct an
orderly evacuation. Several people who had evacuated the
buildings claimed they heard public address announcements that
the fire was under control and they could return to their
offices. Some people chose to return to work in the building
rather than continue the evacuation, because it was thought the
buildings were now! safe. Suddenly without warning the South
Tower collapses. Van Romero vice president for research at New
Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology states, "The collapse
of the towers resembled those of a controlled implosion caused
by high explosives on buildings and other structures. The
detonations could have been caused by a small amount of
explosive put in more than two points in each of the towers. It
could have been a relatively small amount of explosives placed
in strategic points. The MIT faculty announced that "The
structure was still good" after the planes hit"

The towers have exterior columns that were damaged by the
aircraft, but the key to the buildings strength is its inner
tubes. These may have eventually melted losing their strength,
or explosives may have destroyed them? The towers steel cores
were protected by several centimeters of cement-based
insulation. It is my contention having worked for several
engineering firms that the firemen's expertise was correct. The
buildings should not have collapsed from the fire, that some
other factors were involved. These could be faulty
construction, failure to follow the fire codes, or that the
World Trade Center was again attacked with high explosives like
it had been several years before. Osama Bin Laden is an
experienced structural engineer and terrorist. The aircraft
attacks may have actually covered up the actual explosions that
destroyed the buildings. The explosives may have been planted
in the confusion. Two hundred and thirty firemen who came into
the buildings and sta! rted fire and rescue operations were
killed along with almost one hundred police officers. I watched
several interviews with eight firemen who survived and none
thought the Towers would collapse. Further investigation of the
catastrophe is warranted. Thanks to PsyOpNews.com.

UFOs ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER VIDEOS

Peter Davenport NUFORC writes several people reported seeing
UFOs in the video of the crashes into the World Trade Center.
We have looked at many videos and still photos of the WTC
attack, and we believe that none of the allegedly anomalous
objects appears to us to be UFO-related. The tiny white object
seen above Tower 1 at the time of the first impact appears to
us to be a helicopter on the near side of the tower and
resultant fireball, flying from left to right.

The fuzzy, indistinct object seen just to the right of the
fireball erupting from Tower 2 (southern tower) is more
difficult to ascribe to anything we are familiar with, but our
suspicion is that the object(s) may be the engine(s) from UAL
Flight 175/Boeing 767 which, because of their mass, penetrated
through the building well ahead of the fireball and other parts
of the aircraft. We express our profound sympathy to the many
thousands of individuals whose loved ones perished in this
tragedy. Thanks to Peter B. Davenport, Director National
Reporting Center.

PENNSYLVANIA DISK

GRANTVILLE -- My 12 year old daughter came home from school and
said that she had to tell me something and that she thought I
would not believe her. She proceeded to tell me that she saw
two alien saucers approach our area on August 29, 2001, while
waiting for the bus. She said, "One had a sparkly light that
came out the bottom of one of the ships in a tubular shape,
that went towards the ground and stayed there for about 15
seconds and came back up the ship. Then both ships left the
area going away from our house." My daughter is not the
imaginative type, and she is afraid that something will happen
to her or her family. She prayed that whole day that nothing
would happen, and she cannot sleep well ever since it happened.

OHIO TWO FLYING TRIANGLES

MARIETTA -- The witness reports, "I was traveling east towards
my home on August 29, 2001, when I noticed an airplane from the
local airport. I was nearing Wal-Mart at around 9:20 PM, when I
noticed something just seemed out of place. The object was
traveling very fast, and its shape just didn't look right. I
realized it was not a routine flight, and it was coming from
the wrong direction. It was now flying directly towards my car
and had five lights on it, a blue light was on the very front
of it, a white light just below the blue one, 2 white lights on
either side, and a flashing light in the center of it. As it
flew directly over my car, I slowed down, and I noticed other
cars in front of mine slow down also, so I know I was not the
only one who saw it. It finally passed over my car, and there
was no sound. I could see the triangular shape very clearly and
it was totally black against the moonlit sky. The back had no
indications of exhaust or smoke. The back was co! ncave in shape
looking sort of like a boomerang but more triangular. I could
now see only four lights, the three white ones, and the bluish
white flashing light in the center. I was shocked when a second
flying triangle quickly followed the first. They both were
moving at the same speed and 1000 foot altitude. They were
separated by about 1000 feet and were moving very fast probably
above 300 to 400 mph. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC

GEORGIA DISKS ON THE NIGHT OF THE CRASHES.

GRIFFIN -- I was getting home from band practice on September
11, 2001, the night that all the crashes happened and looking
around I looked to the north and saw two disks with lights on
the edge through some clouds at 8:45 PM. I was surprised
because, I knew they were supposed to be grounded. They had
lights on them that changed in Sync from blue to green. They
darted around each other for about 10-15 seconds before I lost
track of them. I was really freaked out and I felt like this
needed to be shared. I am very serious about this report.
Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com.

INDIANA LOW HOVERING DISC

ZIONSVILLE -- The witnesses report seeing a saucer shaped craft
on September 1, 2001. It had solid white lights at the ends and
bottom, flashing white light on the top. We approached by car
at 9:30 PM, and the object appeared to be standing still and
not moving. The object hovered low then disappeared completely
as we got closer.

TERRE HAUTE -- The reports seeing an elongated off-white
iridescent oval shaped object that appeared in the center of
the clear sky, going silently to the west at 4:57 AM. I could
make out an apparent dome-like structure on top before it went
out of view about five seconds later. The object was two inches
across at arm's length. Estimating 60 tangent at 500 feet away
at ground level=866 feet high. The same witness reported a
minute later seeing a faint light green sphere change direction
towards the south, almost as if it noticed I was observing it.
I say this for two reasons, as it shifted in direction directly
between the trees in front of me, about 60 feet away, and in an
instant stopped then accelerated three times, in about as many
feet. Either it moved faster than my eyes could track it, or it
seemed to vibrate or shimmer losing it's round shape while in
motion. It then resumed course to the southeast. Even though it
was very small for it's altitude. Using tange! nt at 65 degrees
50 feet away at ground level=107 feet high. The size was a
thumbnail at arm's length. (Peter Davenport comments that both
reports came from the same source. We do not understand how
anyone would be able to determine distances, altitudes, and
angles with the precision implied by this case.)

WISCONSIN FLYING TRIANGLE

GREENVILLE -- On September 23, 2001, the witness said, "I was
traveling south on US 45 just south of the city of Greenville
in Winnebago County. I noticed an aircraft flying south
parallel to me that had its landing lights on at 10:00 PM. The
aircraft made a sharp right turn and headed back to the north.
As we approached the aircraft near the intersection of 150 and
45, it appeared the aircraft had stopped moving. As we got
closer we could definitely see that it was not moving and that
it was hovering at about 400-500 feet high. Other vehicles were
traveling south on US 45 and were slowing down also because of
what they were seeing. It appeared that it was no more than 1/4
mile away on the right side of the road hovering over farm
fields. The aircraft was shaped like a triangle with three or
four bright white lights on two sides and two red blinking
lights. Thanks to UFOWisconsin by Duane W
http://www.ufowisconsin.com/county/reports/r2001_0923_winnebago
.html for drawing

ILLINOIS UFO

CRETE -- On September 1, 2001, the witness reports seeing a UFO
hovering over an open field at only 100 feet above the ground
at 12:30 AM. The witness was driving his truck, when the UFO
moved quickly upward and away from roadside. It was a dim
yellowish white in color and the underbelly was brighter in
color and definition. The object was the size of 1 1/2 buses in
length. I did not believe in UFOs until this happened. I was in
total awe of how an object of its size moved and changed
direction so fast. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC

NEBRASKA DAYLIGHT FLYING TRIANGLE

OMAHA -- The witness was traveling on Crown Point Road on
August 29, 2001, near the Blair High Road intersection, when he
saw a black shape moving through the air almost directly east.
The witness has many years of Air Force experience and
familiarity with the air traffic patterns of the area. He
stated, "My immediate presumption was this had to be either a
dark colored B1 or possibly B2 bomber heading in for a landing
at Offutt AFB. Then, to my utter surprise, the object 'banked'
giving me an edge on view; and what I now saw was a very long,
narrow angled black triangle. Having seen number of 747s at
that distance, I would estimate it at about that length of 231
feet. It was clearly not the shape of a B2, nor a B1, because
the only time it's wings are back in a 'delta' type
configuration is when it is flying at high speed (which this
craft was not). Second, because the shape was way too narrow
and triangular. I was going to stop and keep watching this
craft, but I first! looked down to my Van's clock to see the
exact time, and when I looked up, the craft was gone." Thanks
to NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

KANSAS ORBS

COLDWATER -- Pat Wells saw an amazing orb in the western sky
with his 30-70 binoculars on October 1, 2001, at 4:26 AM. It
stayed stationary for fifteen or so minutes then flew west. The
light was intense. Pat says, "I was looking above the western
horizon about 20 degrees and saw on orb with red white and
yellowish flashing lights within and revolving it then moved
west pretty dam fast." I would be interested in any other
sightings. God bless America. Thanks to Pat pwells@rh.net

ARKANSAS FLYING LIGHTS

LITTLE ROCK -- Kaleeh Rodgers. E-mailed that, "My friend
Kristen and I were outside around midnight on September 31,
2001, trying to get my telescope ready to look at the
satellites. We heard you could see them then. Kristen screamed,
"WHAT'S THAT?" I looked up and I saw these green, red and blue
lights blinking green, red, and then blue. Then all the lights
came on. Then they would all go off, and blink again, following
the same pattern each time. This "craft" hovered over us for
about 30 seconds to a minute, then flew off into the night sky
faster than any plane, I have ever seen. One of my interests is
planes. Thanks to Kaleeh Rodgers.

COLORADO MINI UFO FLAP

SALIDA -- Seems we are having a mini-flap of sightings here in
the San Luis Valley, which, appears to have commenced with Tim
Edwards' on September 10, 2001, with the sighting and
videotaping of a triangular object cruising over Salida. On
September 22, visiting Texas hunters at the San Luis Lakes
observed a "huge moon-sized, glowing ball hovering to the north
over head the Dollar Lakes. This is the supposed location of
the sipapu or "place of emergence" for the Pueblo Indians. The
object appeared to extend two bright beams of light into the
lakes. Two other witnesses at the Great Sand Dunes Oasis
Campground also reported seeing what was probably the same
object. The following morning at 11:30 AM, another witness
(while driving in the Baca development) reported two
disc-shaped objects flying low over the Sangre de Cristos near
Crestone Park. When a conventional plane flying at a higher
altitude neared their location, both discs appeared to "vanish
into thin air." I am i! nvestigating a number of other reports
from this past week, which I will post after confirmation.
Thanks to Tmv tmv@ctelco.net

CANADA NEW CROP CIRCLES

MIDALE, SASKATCHEWAN -- Three more Crop circle formations about
80 miles northeast of Midale, were formed in wheat and found
September 26, 2001. Whether this is actually three circles in
one formation or three separate formations is not known at this
point. Thanks to CCCRN NEWS psa@look.ca cccrnnews@topica.com

NORWAY UFO LANDS

OSLO -- On September 25, 2001, police in Helgeland, north
central Norway, have been getting a rash of reported UFO
sightings, while a woman in the northern town of Bod insists a
small flying object landed in her garden. Tgersen says several
more people have come forward after news reports carried the
account of three people in the town of Mosjen who dove for
cover when they saw a low-flying, whirling object hurtle
through the night skies On September 23. "We also have several
other witness observations of the same phenomenon in the same
time frame on Sunday," Tgersen said. Other people have
reported sightings of additional UFOs that apparently resemble
small, brightly lit balls. While the larger object over Mosjen
emitted no noise whatsoever, Tgersen says the smaller objects
are reported to have made a hissing sound. But the most
remarkable reports came from the northern city of Bod. There,
a woman went out of her house and a flying object landed on her
lawn, stoo! d there awhile, and then lifted off and flew away.
Two other separate individuals reported the same sighting, at
the same time, on Saturday evening. One of the two was driving
his car when he spotted it flying over Vefsnfjorden, while
another saw it while out on a veranda. Both reported that it
was brightly lit. Thanks to Frode Stran and Gerry FarShores at
www.100megsfree4.com/farshore

MARS TUNNELS

Bill Clark writes, "Thank you for all the information on the
military buildup in Asia in Filer's Files." I think I will stop
reading the newspapers and just wait for your report each week
- it's concise, clear, and with some solid observations! I am a
Ph.D. student of Aerospace Engineering at the University of
Texas at Austin, where most of the Mars data is being analyzed
(at the Center for Space Research). I have been in the middle
of a big debate about Mars. About half of the scientific
community believes that no water could ever have existed on
Mars. The reasoning is not hard to follow.

One of the first objectives of any manned Mars mission will be
to create an atmosphere. The planet's gravity is so small that
this atmosphere would have to be constantly replenished to
remain stable. Now, if there were ever water on the planet, it
would not have remained for very long at all - it would quickly
evaporate, then be lost into deep space because the gravity
could not hold it there. So it is virtually impossible that
water could ever have existed on Mars - especially not in a
huge volume as we have on Earth, for eons; long enough to have
caused all the land features we see now.

An alternate theory, which is presented in great detail on my
web site at http://www.inviticus.com, is that there is a strong
gravity flux in the neighborhood of Mars, sufficient to cause
these patterns on the surface. It would also explain why the
Russians never made it to Mars in six attempts, and why all
three of our most recent missions to Mars have failed (two
crashed, and the third lost half its solar panels in transit).
It is certainly reason to be cautious in our (meaning the US)
current Mars mission, and the UK's upcoming one. I have a
trajectory optimization program on my web site -- with source
code -- if anybody wants to see for himself or herself how
tricky this mission is!

The problem is that, if you accept that the peculiar patterns
on Mars could not have been caused by water, and that they were
caused by this gravitational phenomenon - then it is necessary
to say that this gravity flux may be strong but it is probably
not capable of creating such fine features as we see on the
planet surface. Thus people are even more hesitant to discard
the water wash theory because of what it would mean in the
interpretation of these surface features - i.e., they are not
natural. Thanks to center4cm@earthlink.net (Bill Clark, P.E.)

NETHERLANDS CROP CIRCLE

Nancy Talbot phoned to inform me she had witnessed the
formation of a Crop Circle in the early morning hours of August
21, 2001. Nancy had gone to Holland to visit an amazing young
man called Robert. Nancy was reading in bed at 3:00 AM, when
she heard cattle outside her room making noises. A few minutes
later, they started again but stopped about 3:15 AM. Nancy
noticed her room was brightening like a welders arc light. An
intense column of light was above the field located behind her
bedroom. There were two tubes of light about a foot in diameter
shinning down on the field. The lights went out for a second
and other came down. Nancy jumped out of bed and called for the
young man she was visiting named Robert. He was also awake in
the kitchen and also saw the lights shinning down about 85 feet
away. They rushed outside and there was nothing in the sky or
field. Everything was quiet with no sound, and no smells. They
walked toward the field and just beyond the fence ! was a Crop
Circle in the string beans. It was a 35 foot ellipse (stretched
circle) with a twenty foot long off to one side with a crossbar
at the end, forming a 'T' coming off the ellipse. Nancy thought
she saw some steam rising from the Crop Circle. The next
morning Nancy saw the field from her bedroom window. We
wondered if the Crop Circle had been made so Nancy could see
it. This observation seems more than a coincidence and infers
intelligence at work. Thanks to Nancy Talbot and George
Reynolds Maryland MUFON.

SINGAPORE SAUCER VIDEOTAPED

JURONG WEST -- Residents report seeing a UFO on September 22,
2001, that hovered for 15 minutes over some apartment flats.
The UFO sparked excitement and speculation among the residents,
some of whom called the Channel NewsAsia hotline. Resident
Benjamin Lee captured the object on a video in the distance.
"Then the saucer was just hovering over the buildings, with a
very bright light. "At first we thought it was a chopper, but
the lights were running around the whole thing and it looks
much more like a saucer." It was as wide as the flat window,"
Joanne Lee says, "I didn't believe it, so I used a toy
telescope to look at it. It was very clear, like a plate,
rounded, with blinker lights," another eyewitness, Mr. Tan,
said. I saw it at 9.45 PM. I used a telescope. There were many
lights on the bottom of the saucer. There were three windows.
Fifteen minutes later, it flew off in another direction," Madam
Yong added. A spokesperson from mobile phone company Star Hub
th! ought it could be their lightship, which flew over the Bukit
Timah expressway that night. StarHub said the two 1,000-watt
lights on the lightship are so bright it could have been
mistaken for a UFO. Thanks' to correspondent Christopher Lee
ChannelNewsAsia.com / Singapore and Gerry@FarShores who notes
the 'UFO' could have been an advertising lightship - -
www.100megsfree4.com/farshores

The GREAT UFO/ET CONFERENCE on October 6 & 7, 2001, at the DAYS
INN on Route 206 and NJTP Exit 7, Bordentown, NJ. Saturday
10:00 AM George Filer will be the leadoff speaker concerning
the UFO Disclosure Project, Rick R. Hilberg - the First Three
Decades, Jim Wilson - When UFOs Land, Diana Palmer Hoyt UFOs,
Social Intelligence and Condon Committee, Donald LeeRose -
Occultism in Ufology, Georgio Tsoukalos - Legacy of the Gods,
Antonio Huneeus - UFO Chronicles From South America, Susan
Swiatek - New Abduction Cases, James Moseley - Shockingly Close
To the Truth, Ronald Story -The UFO Encyclopedia Project,
Antonio Huneeus- UFO Chronicles from Europe, George Hansen -
The Trickster and the Paranormal. Call Pat J. Marcattilio at
609 298-6100.

LARGEST UFO CD-ROM IN EXISTENCE The Black Vault has unveiled
thousands of documents relating to the UFO phenomenon. Some,
have never been published in electronic form, nor have other
seen even the light of day. Declassified in recent years, this
CD holds over 5,000 pages of material, covering the past
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research. From the CIA recently declassified documents to the
FBI. From the NSA to the DIA, this CD has a fantastic archive,
ready to browse with high-resolution scans. Easily read and
easily navigated, this research tool will be used for years to
come! To order, call toll free, (866) 828-2858 or outside the
continental US, (818) 886-0131. Order online today,
http://www.blackvaultstore.com

BEFORE YOU BUY OR SELL A HOME SEE MY FREE REPORT All real
estate agents are not the same? Some real estate agents are
part timers and inexperienced while others are experts. When
you are selling or buying your home, you need to make sure you
have the best real estate agent working for you! Remember, the
majority of people do not know the right questions to ask, and
what pit falls can cause major problems. Picking the right real
estate agent can be a wonderful experience, and picking the
wrong one can be a big mistake! Find out, " What you need to
understand before hiring any real estate agent!" To get a free
report, e-mail Majorstar@aol.com.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL for $30 per year by
contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended you for
membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2001 by George A.
Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the
files on their Web Sites provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue
that the item appeared. These reports and comments are not
necessarily the official MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish
to keep your name, address, or story confidential. Caution,
most of these are initial reports and require further
investigation. Regards, George Filer









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                 UFOs And The NOSS [Naval Ocean Surveillance

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 17:55:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 17:55:21 -0400
Subject: UFOs And The NOSS [Naval Ocean Surveillance

http://www.anomalist.com/features/Noss.html

10-04-01

UFOs And The NOSS [Naval Ocean Surveillance System] Problem

by Anthony Eccles

On Thursday 29th June The Guardian newspaper presented a feature
on sun storm satellites.(1) The European Space Agency is about
to launch Cluster, a set of four satellites that are designed to
orbit the sun in a tight formation. In 1996, the test flight
launcher 'Ariane V,' which carried the first Cluster payload,
blew up. In that same year a Canadian newspaper reports that
observers of the Perseid meteor shower were surprised to see a
triangular formation of three lights above them in the sky. For
the first time people were becoming aware that satellites
travelling in formation were in existence.

The case that follows has, over recent months, brought to light
a number of important points to my attention. Thanks to Strange
Daze, I have been able to update this investigative article into
artificial satellite systems which continues to be responsible
for a large number of UFO sightings. Two things comes to light
from this case; firstly, that many ufologists fail to identify
reported UFO sightings probably due to deep cultural belief
systems, and secondly, that the security of the United States is
continuously being threatened by the technological development
of other countries. I shall explain more about the latter point
later on, but first of all I would like to start at the
beginning and explain how I have come to the above conclusions.

During October of 1999, a UFO case had come to my attention from
the Thingwall area of Wirral on Merseyside. A fifty five year
old sales engineer called John was walking his dog in the fields
on the Tuesday night of the 5th of October. John and his dog
were located to the north of Prenton Brook, and to the east of
far Lower Thingwall Lane. It was ten o'clock at night and the
sky was slightly covered with cloud, it was not raining and
there was no wind. In fact, John could see a clear night sky. A
slow moving point of light had caught his attention, and it
appeared to pass through the constellation of Cassiopeia. The
man believed that what he was looking at was a satellite.
However, another detail had caught his eye, he noticed a second
light and then a third appearing together to form a triangular
formation, with one light being the lead light and the others
forming a base line, an isosceles triangle formation. All three
lights were moving together simultaneously. Satellites? Moving
in formation? His initial thought was that he was observing
three individual objects and not three lights that were fixed
onto a single solid body. They appeared to move at the correct
speed for a satellite and at the correct height. The lights
disappeared from view "as they entered the Earth's shadow".
Normally, most investigators, like myself, would probably
connect the sighting of triangular lights with suspect prototype
military aircraft. However, because the witness had submitted a
number of important observational details on his sighting form,
I was able to focus the investigation on astronomical phenomena.

My first point of call was my computer skymap and reference
books of the Merseyside night skies, which are published by the
Liverpool Astronomical Society. With this in hand I was able to
locate Cassiopeia. From John's description of the lights the
witness had observed them travelling from the west to the east.
I had never heard of satellites travelling in formation before
so my next move was to contact the British Astronomical
Association - Artificial Satellite Section, and also to look on
the Internet for a satellite tracking site called
Heavens-Above.Com, which is based in Germany. From this website
I was able to pinpoint a satellite called Cosmos 1943 rocket
which was close to the estimated object altitude and location.
It is a single object which passes at 22:03:05 at a magnitude of
3.9 and first appears in the south west. This object fails to
account for the lights witnessed, firstly because it produces a
singular light in the sky, secondly because it appears below
Cassiopeia and not through it, and finally because it moves in
the opposite direction, from the south west to the north east.

Not the right solution, I know, but I was certain I was on the
right track. Soon after, on the 25th October 1999, I received an
email from the British Astrronomical Association with an
explanation that it could well be NOSS. The email carried with
it the following information:

"A couple of summers ago, meteor observers certainly became
familiar with the 'NOSS Trio' of satellites, which were in an
equilateral pattern. Onboard sensors apparently allowed
researchers to measure precise distances between these, and how
they were affected by gravitational pertubations over time. The
NOSS satellites were also comparatively faint - visual mag. +3
or thereabouts."

Searching carefully on the Internet I discovered a piece that
had been written by CNI News, it was continuing a story that had
appeared on the 1st September 1996 in the Toronto Star newspaper
regarding the annual Perseid meteor shower. During the nights of
the 8th, 9th and 10th of August of that year a set of three
"unblinking" lights in triangular formation had "cruised across
the star fields." These lights had never been seen before and
were described as being fainter than the constellation of Ursa
Major. The article goes on to say that Ted Molczan, a satellite
orbit expert based in Toronto had figured out what the three
lights were...they were NOSS, and there was not just one set but
there were actually three sets of satellites travelling in
formation. They were code named Parcae, after the three
daughters of Zeus, and were a part of the US Navy's spaceborne
electronic intelligence system (ELINT). NOSS was the name given
to these satellites by non military satellite specialists and
stood for Naval Ocean Surveillance System. Until 1996, the US
Government had denied all knowledge of these satellites ever
existing.

Each group of satellites, apparently, fly at an altitude of
1100km and in formation approximately 100km across. The
satellites are meant to track the position, speed, and direction
of all military ships at sea. This is done by detecting
communication, navigation and weapons control signals that are
emitted almost continuously by naval ships. Three satellites can
track these ships more accurately than a singular satellite
could by measuring the time difference of signal receipt.
According to this CNI News article three sets of satellites were
launched in 1990, 1991 and 1996. Each satellite measures
approximately three meters in length, larger than the earlier
versions of this system.(2)

This sounded fascinating to me because it indicated that any
ship belonging to any nationality could be identified and
located anywhere in the world. It has some interesting
implications with the use of satellite technology. Furthermore I
was surprised that I had not come across these in the UFO
literature as an explanation for some UFO reports. I conducted a
further search and found a number of question and answer pages
from satellite enthusiasts. They inquire as to whether these
satellites can remain in tight formation and ask how they can
maneuver in orbit. These satellites move with a leading
satellite first and the remaining two following behind, they are
not capable of remaining in a tight formation but will appear in
a triangular formation as well as a formation of lights
travelling in a straight line. This actually ties in with a
couple of other UFO cases that I have which fit just that
description. One of the answers given by a satellite observer
stated the following;

"The NOSS constellations consist of three visible satellites,
each of which moves in a roughly geocentric orbit. The shape of
the triangle formed cannot be maintained because the orbits must
intersect one another when viewed from Earths center. Thus from
time to time the satellites will even appear to be in a straight
line from that point of view. All other times they form some
sort of triangle, but its shape must vary continuously. I tried
viewing them from above in simulation in Starry Night. It is
possible to do so, but it is very difficult."(3)

Out of curiosity I wanted to know a bit more and fortunately
found a few pages from FAS, Space Policy Agency: Military Space
Programs. From here were pages which described White Cloud
(NOSS). Its opening sentence begins:

"The White Cloud Naval Ocean Surveillance System (NOSS)
performed wide area ocean surveillance, primarily for the Navy
White Cloud which is used to determine the location of radio and
radars transmissions using triangulation. The identity of naval
units can be deduced by analysis of the operating frequencies
and transmission patterns of the emitters.

Each NOSS launch placed a cluster of one primary satellite and
three smaller sub-satellites (that trail along at distances of
several hundred kilometers) into low polar orbit. This satellite
array can determine the location of radio and radars
transmitters, using triangulation, and the identity of naval
units, by analysis of the operating frequencies and transmission
patterns.

NOSS used the ELINT (Electronic Intelligence) technique called
"time difference of arrival", TDOA, rather than true
interferometry. Conceptually, TDOA and interferometry are very
similar, though distinct, techniques. They may also use the
frequency-domain version of TDOA, FDOA, which exploits Doppler
shifts somewhat in the way the COSPAS/SARSATs do."

The initial phase of Operation White Cloud was reported to be in
operation from 1976 right through to 1987 when 9 satellites were
sent into orbit. This phase used one main and three
sub-satellites and used Atlas F rockets to project them into
orbit. It is not explained how these satellites remained in
formation flight, it is suggested that extremely long wires held
them together but that these would have had to have been several
hundreds of kilometers long! From 1983 to 1987 a total of five
groups of modernized SSU-1A satellites with upgraded
stabilization and data transmission systems were launched to
replace failed satellites. By 1990, these satellites were
launched using only three bodies. A number of infrared sensors
were incorporated into these, and these had been manufactured by
a company called Martin Marietta. By 1996 these satellites were
using a stronger and more reliable Titan 4#17 rockets.(4) (NOSS
satellites are really known collectively as Space-Based Wide
Area Surveillance System - a joint US Navy and Air Force
program.)

There is a paper given by a Russian military advisor called
Major A. Andronov entitled "The U.S. Navy's 'White Cloud'
Spaceborne ELINT System." This gives an excellent explanation as
to why three satellites are used. The first has a wide
observation swath, but by itself cannot determine the
co-ordinates of radio emitters. The second satellite, with the
first, gets a fix on the shipborne emitters, the position of the
ship is obtained, but with some ambiguity. The third body gets
the fix of the emitters signals, enables their co-ordinates to
be determined precisely and then transmits the information to
Navy ships for weapons employment. You can therefore take out an
enemy surface craft long before it appears on Radar.(5) The
targeted information is not only relayed to US Navy ships but
also to land stations such as Blossom Point in Maryland, Winter
Harbor in Maine, Edsel in Scotland, and smaller stations in the
Pacific such as Guam and Adak ,(6) which were receiver stations
before they were closed down.(7)

Major Andronov states that a satellite group is able to receive
signals from a zone with a radius of about 3500km on the surface
of the Earth, and under clear conditions can monitor the same
object 108 minutes later. A system of four satellite groups
enables any region at a latitude of 40 to 60 degrees to be
monitored more than 30 times a day. This spaced based ELINT
system is one of the basic means for over-the-horizon targeting
for warships equipped with Tomahawk cruise missiles. Today,
these information receiver systems are employed by nuclear
submarines.(8)

Recently, I came across a feature on page 34 of UFO Magazine
regarding one man's observation of such satellites.(9) At the
close of his writing he asks "Do satellites orbit in symmetrical
formation, perhaps?" This is followed by a very small entry at
the bottom of the page which states that "James Oberg claims
that three top secret DoD satellites are orbiting the Earth in
triangular formation". There did not appear to be any research
done by the magazine to support or correct this statement, in
fact nothing further had been reported since then. A colleague
of mine, Bill Bimson, had contacted UFO Magazine with the
contents of the article you are reading now. Their reply was
that NOSS satellites could not account for the witness's initial
sighting back in 1975, and according to my own notes NOSS was
first launched in 1976. Could this be right? I began to scour
the Internet for more information.

What I then discovered answered my question. Was it possible
that formation satellites could have been launched, tried and
tested at an earlier date. According to a reliable source the
first launch of ELINT Naval reconnaissance satellites code named
Parcae took place at Vandenberg Launch Site(10) 14 December 1971
and were launched using an LT Thor Agena D rocket.(11) What I
realized was that there were different ELINT systems that were
being used by the US Air Force and US Navy. Remember that NOSS
is only a civilian term for the satellites, their name, type,
and operational function will vary so there will be a number of
dates for their initial launches. To further confuse interested
parties rocket launches designated as NOSS were a cover for
other military satellites.

Over the years through the 1980s and 90s the satellites were
launched on powerful rockets from the Atlas F, Atlas H and the
Titan 4. These were designed to carry a payload of several
satellites which would be individually deployed in Low Earth
Orbit (using Altitude Control Electronics or ACE), this would
not only be cheaper but also a more effective way of deploying
satellites. However, there do appear to be a number of
discrepancies, normally the rocket being used as a launcher
would determine the type of satellite being sent up. If we look
at the weight being carried by the launchers today we know that
they can carry a payload of 8 tonnes in orbit, but the SB-Wass
(NOSS) satellites weigh a total of 1.5 tonnes, what we do not
know is what other type of equipment is contained within the
rocket payload. The extra mass appears to be consistent with the
presence of advanced scanning infra-red sensor on the
sub-satellites.(12) Another example of existing misinformation
involves the Titan 2 and Titan 4 booster rockets that were used
in 1988, 1989 and 1992 which had a payload similar to NOSS but
were in fact, as stated previously, singular spacecraft. These
were deployed at a higher orbit around the Earth to function for
Signal Intelligence (SIGINT) instead of Electronic Intelligence
(ELINT).

For the Twenty First century satellites will be of a smaller
construction, produced economically and will encompass tasks
such as space based radar that the present Discoverer II program
(joint US Air Force, DARPA and NRO technology) is tasked to do
will cost an estimated $60 million. Discoverer IIs goal will be
to launch two research and development satellites which will be
capable of detecting and tracking targets on the Earths
surface! (Did you know that the NAVSPASUR surveillance system -
surveillance of space - uses a Doppler shift to detect objects
as small as 10cm in diameter at orbital heights of up to 15,000
nautical miles and accurately keep track of them?) They will
produce high-resolution and imagery and collect high-resolution,
digital terrain mapping data. It will be able to do this day or
night and in all weather. But why the development of multiple
formation satellite systems?

Since the end of the Cold War the United States has had to
refocus its military planning and strategy. Second and Third
World countries have quickly increased their technological
development. The conflict in the Gulf War had demonstrated the
superior reconnaissance ability of surveillance satellites and
the US military has depended upon it. The US Air Force believed
that space based programs will make ground based and air based
radars redundant. To do this there has to be found a cheaper way
of producing a new security. In the Draft Roles and Missions
Report of the Joints Chief of Staff it notes that;

"The newest national space satellite system will consolidate the
missions, facilities and infrastructure of two existing
satellites. This will facilitate the closure of six ground
stations and consolidate operations at one site, eliminating
significant facility expenses."

An important threat is the vulnerability of Low Earth Orbit
satellites to anti satellite attack, or ATAS, Satellites(13) can
be seen during clear nights but also on rare occasions
affordable telescopes can detect faint objects in the daytime
sky! (Accompanied by rare atmospheric effects e.g. mirages, we
might even have satellites creating daylight UFOs.) It is also
relatively easy to track satellites, amateur astronomers have
demonstrated this already. Second and Third World countries
hoping to develop techniques of countering satellite
surveillance only have to find a means of being able to
identify, track and either mask ground based targets (such as
mobile missile launchers) or disable the satellite itself. It is
a misconception that satellites can operate today in a totally
covert manner. The technology needed to track and
counter/disable is available and inexpensive. There is easy
access to a worldwide network of amateur satellite observers,
complete with a skymap and a PC anyone can plot and predict the
movement of satellites. To detect and track means that the
hardware has to be available, for a technology that is being
constantly produced it is easily available if a nation can
afford the cost. Most Third World nations can, e.g. India.

A wonderful example is this of a Lacrosse I surveillance
satellite over Tehran being targeted for the 16 March 1992 and
again on the 22 March 1992. With the knowledge of the
satellites trajectory, elevation, and height it would have been
possible for Iran to fire a missile to knock out the satellite.
Such anti satellite measures are a growing security threat to
the US and there is a need for projects to involve formations of
satellites so as to prevent any attack on the satellites from
rendering their work useless. Another added problem here is that
there is a need for a rapid satellite replacement, so that
surveillance and intelligence gathering can continue, of which
the US has none employed.

My interest in the field of UFOs entails the possible
identification of satellites as an origin of the sighting. With
this case, I feel that I have done so. I am now aware that
certain satellites do travel in formation and they also create
different shapes of lights. We have NOSS travelling in threes
and also the Lacrosse satellites travelling in twos. For me in
Merseyside it also means solving a number of other cases which
have been previously labeled as insufficient data (IFO-ID).
However, what I became bothered by was the fact that these
satellites had been observed by amateur astronomers in 1996 yet
no one in ufology had picked this up! I was unable to locate any
of this from the available UFO literature!

This was very unusual as it clearly provides a solution for a
number of sightings. I realized that few so called 'ufologists'
actually like to hear of solutions, in fact, I know that there
are some who enjoy the mere mystery of the subject but refuse to
pay attention to the fact that unsolved cases only represent
approximately 1 in 10 of reported sightings. We know that from
the equipment on board these surveillance satellites, and their
appearance, that they will emit a bright white color with a blue
tinge, and may be accompanied with smaller lights about their
body, the light may also appear to flicker possibly due to the
reflector radar antenna as they turn in orbit. The formation of
lights will also vary from triangular, to a straight line to
even appear to intercept one another and then disappear. This
description is not at all definitive but reflects what satellite
observers have reported seeing.

The first time I had produced this article I actually thought I
was going to receive mail from readers telling me that this was
nothing new, how wrong I was! I received confirmation of this
from someone who contacted the British UFO Research Association
who actually told me that the NOSS satellites actually describe
what he had seen in the night sky a few years ago. I wonder how
many reported observations from the British public have been
interpreted by ufologists as the famed Flying Triangle? I also
wonder about NASA film footage, such as STS-80 and STS-48, of
objects that appear to be intelligently controlled orbiting the
Earth and is interpreted by some to be footage of
extra-terrestrial craft rather than, say for arguments sake, a
military project to see if it is possible to shoot down
satellites with ground based missiles. Remember that a number of
UFO stories put around in the 1960s were cover stories for the
CIA when top secret high altitude aircraft were being flown,
such as the U2 spyplane. Space footage of apparently unusual and
intelligently controlled craft could also be a cover for
necessary security satellite operations.



Endnotes

(1) Guardian newspaper Thursday June 29 2000, p.9

(2) You can look at this page if you go to its original file
name which is CNI: Triangle of Stars??
http://www.cninews.com/Search/CNI.0475.html

(3) http://www.satellite.eu.org/sat/seesat/Aug-1997/0296.html
http://www.satellite.eu.org/sat/seesat/Aug-1997/0299.html
http://www.satellite.eu.org/sat/seesat/Aug-1997/0303.html

(4)http://www.fas.org/spp/military/program/surveill/noss.htm

(5) Another factor to consider is the development of stealth
technology and the need to detect this, particularly if possible
aggressor nations were to use this technology against the US.

(6) These places are where Classic Wizard, the satellite control
system, is located.

(7) http://users.ox.ac.uk/~daveh/Space/Military/mil_sbwass.html

(8)
http://www.fas.org/spp/military/program/surveill/noss_andronov.h
tm

(9) UFO Magazine March/ April 2000 p.34 "The Experiencers"

(10) Vandenberg Launch Site is situated in California, USA, and
was first used as a training base for soldiers who went to
Korea. Then it reopened as an ICBM base in November 1956. In
1958 Vandenberg launched its first missile. The base was
selected as a launch site specifically for setting satellites
into polar orbit and for missile testing across the Pacific and
Kwajalein Atoll.
Http://www.rocketry.com/mwade/sites/vannberg.htm

(11) Mark Wades Encyclopedia Astronautica
http://www.rocketry.com/mwade/craft/noss.htm

(12) http://users.ox.ac.uk/~daveh/Space/Military/mil_sbwass.html

(13) Allen Thomson Space Policy 11 (1) February 1995, pp.19-30
"Satellite Vulnerability: a post-Cold War issue?"



Anthony Eccles is an Assistant Curator of Ethnology at Liverpool
Museum. In his spare time he is the Co-Founder and co-ordinator
for the Merseyside Anomalies Research Association and an active
member of the British UFO Research Association.

Copyright � Anthony Eccles 2001









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              Re: Unidentified Object At World Trade Center? -

From: Donnie Shevlin <dshevlin@charter.net>
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 16:26:56 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 17:57:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Unidentified Object At World Trade Center? -


I originally wrote this last week. Sent it to the wrong thread.

-----

Hi Errol, and all who are concerned,

I was asked to look over this video shot of the second crash. At
first I thought as everyone else did, "What was that?", but on
further review on the actual video footage I found that it was a
helicopter. It's passing just above and behind the position of
where the camera is located during this video shot.

If you look at the video just as the second jet hits the tower,
you can just barely see the shadow move over the upper corner of
the _second_ tower closet to the camera. Then on closer review,
you could see the shadow for a brief moment in the smoke just
before the shadow passes over the second tower corner.

The reason it looks as if the shadow is moving so quickly is
that the shadow is reflecting off of smoke closer to the camera
than the buildings are in relationship. Thus giving the illusion
of a greater speed.

So, in conclusion, it's a chopper filming the tower destruction.
A sad day in all lives, here and abroad. There is no UFO to be
spotted.


Donnie Shevlin









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                      Calama - "My Wife And I Saw It!"

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 17:27:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 18:56:14 -0400
Subject: Calama - "My Wife And I Saw It!"


Chupacabras in Chile


http://www.geocities.com/ufomiami.geo/Chupacabras/Chupacabras.html

"My Wife And I Saw It!"


A recent eyewitness account in the Chilean city of Calama has
corroborated previous descriptions of a possible blood predator
entity. It was approximately 22:30 on the 28 of August of 2001.
The eyewitness, who did not want to us to mention his last name,
was driving back to his residence. His wife was in the passenger
seat. They had just attended a church meeting.

A few meters before they arrived at their residence, 'Mr.
Martin' saw a strange figure on the side of the road. To his
surprise, he later recalled that the creature was suspended
about 20 centimeters from the ground. The creature was moving
very rapidly; in fact, it was too fast for any ordinary animal.
The entity rapidly crossed the road in a straight line flight.
As they watched the strange creature, Mr. Martin and his wife
began feeling very unusual physical sensations.

Calama UFO Center looked into the credibility of both witnesses
and determined that there is absolutely no reason for them to
create a false story. Mr. Martin is a security guard at a local
school. He�s been faithfully married for ten years and he lives
an ordinary life with his wife and his three children.


EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY - IN HIS OWN WORDS

I remember that we were driving on a small hill about 35 meters
from my house. Suddenly, it came out of the bushes on the side
of the road.

Immediately, I turned on the high beams. At first, I though it
was my brother-in-law because he lives with us; nevertheless,
after clearly noticing that it moved at a surprising speed and
stood about to 20 centimeters from the ground, I was absolutely
sure that it was not a human being or an animal because it did
not touch the ground!

The creature appeared to be very rigid, with its arms stuck to
the body in a very strange way, like defying all laws of
physics. It had a ghostly and grotesque aspect. It was gray and
white in color and had lots of hair. It almost looked like a
hairy coat or a blanket!

As I saw it, I asked my wife if she was seeing the same thing
that I was. She said yes, so it was not just me. But perhaps the
most unusual thing we experienced was a strange fear and an
inexplicable cold sensation. Nevertheless, I tried to remain
calm and decided to continue driving towards it.

I finally reached the house. The gate was open, so I did not
hesitate to access my driveway. I kept the headlights on so I
could see everything in front of us.

When we finally accessed our property, we were able to see it
again. Then it jumped and disappeared into thin air. We remained
inside the car for a few more moments because we were still
feeling fear and cold sensations.

End of testimony


Mr. Martin is no stranger to these phenomena. After revealing
his testimony, Mr. Martin told us that ten years ago, he saw a
strange looking bird, making weird sounds, at a farm owned by
his father. The bird was about one meter in height. When he
pointed the flashlight at it, the creature reacted very
violently and tore up the wire fence, which is not ordinary for
any bird.

He also claims that in June of 2000, when his father-in-law and
brother-in-law were going to feed their animals at a cattle
ranch, a strange ball of light, greenish blue in color and about
35 centimeters in diameter, appeared out of nowhere and,
incredibly, began to float between the legs of the cows. They
quickly ran out of there.

After searching the Martin property and the surrounding areas,
we found some very familiar tracks. They were the typical tracks
found in places where these entities appear.

His brother-in-law admits that during his encounter, he was so
scared that he urinated himself. Although it may be unpleasant
to mention, I think it is important to emphasize that
frequently, eyewitnesses loose control of their bladders or
rectal sphincter during these encounters. These are only a few
among many symptoms that they experience. The entities appear to
cause their victims to loose physiological control of their
bodies.

Mr. Martin also told us that about a month and a half ago, his
dog died shortly after giving birth. It had a strange looking
hole in the neck area. Apparently, it survived an attack but it
lost a lot of blood. It turned almost into "skin and bones"
before it died a few days after the attack.

His children have also seen strange looking creatures. One time,
one of the young children was paralyzed in front of his house
after seeing what he described as a "red-eyed creature".

Finally, I would like to remind everyone that these phenomena
continue to happen very frequently in Northern Chile. The
eyewitness accounts, the descriptions and the symptoms that they
mention are amazingly similar.

I do not believe that all of this is coincidence. This is very
real.


Jaime Ferrer
Director of Calama UFO Center
Translation by Mario Andrade

Photos at: http://www.geocities.com/ufomiami.geo/MyWife/MyWife.html









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   Oct > Oct 4

                    Re: UFOs And The NOSS Problem - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 17:26:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 19:02:42 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs And The NOSS Problem - Oberg


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers - :;>
 >Date: Thursday, October 04, 2001 4:55 PM
 >Subject: UFOs And The NOSS [Naval Ocean Surveillance System] Problem

 >Source: The Anomalist
 >http://www.anomalist.com/features/Noss.html
 >10-04-01

I'm sorry his internet search didn't find the site where my own identical
conclusions were posted,

http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/phenomena/triangle_ufo_noss_000114.html


Jim Oberg








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                Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Bassett

From: Stephen G. Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 19:36:57 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 09:07:33 -0400
Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Bassett


 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001
 >Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 11:17:48 -0400

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 15:09:16 -0400
 >>UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 ->Velez

 >>>From: Steve Bassett <ExPPAC@aol.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 12:00:09 -0400
 >>>Subject: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001

 >John, you are a good-hearted person who thinks the best of
 >everyone, a good quality in a person. A much ruder and cruder
 >reponse to XPPAC is below.

 >>Hello All,

 >>I do wish to comment, in this forum, on>statements made in the
 >>X-PPAC Update. Steve, please feel free to>respond (or not) here
 >>on the UpDates List to any of my comments. I>have teed-off and
 >>taken my best swing. Please feel welcome & free>to do like-wise.

 >>Steve wrote:

 >>>Time to Coalition

 >>>With the drive for congressional hearings moved to the side by
 >>>world events, this is a time for organizations within the field to come
 >>>together with each other and possibly with receptive organizations
 >>>tangential to the issues at hand.

 >>>Only a broadbased structure with political clout will be able to
 >>>influence disclosure and post-disclosure government
 >>>policies and actions.

 >>Steve, this is what _should_ have been done from the very
 >>_beginning_! It's one of the things that myself and others have
 >>been belly-aching about since day one. It's all being done
 >>bass-ackwards. The witnesses are being screened _after_ they
 >>have been introduced and presented publicly. Consensus is being
 >>sought _after_ the fact.

 >>C'mon man.

 >>If "consensus" had been sought from the _start_ from the major
 >>UFO organizations and from the UFO community at large, the
 >>effort could have been backed by many more>people. It could have
 >>been much more representative and as a direct result, more
 >>popular, coordinated, and bottom line 'effective' than it has been.

 >>The problem with all that is; Greer would have had to give them
 >>some say so in how the thing>would have been handled and
 >>presented. 'Who' represented the UFO>community before our
 >>elected officials would have been put up for a general vote. I
 >>never would have voted for Greer. For example: put "Greer" and
 >>say "Richard Hall" or "Richard Haines" on the same ballot for
 >>the job. Tell me who _you_ think>gets to enjoy a landslide
 >>mandate to be our collective representative(s) before congress.
 >>It's no contest. (No lo contiende) And a 'no->brainer' for
 >>those voting.

 >>A broad-based organization with strong consensus, internal
 >>unity, and backing by its members would have been the benefit of
 >>doing it democratically - as opposed to>presenting the public
 >>with a monarch/dictator) from the very beginning. And that's
 >>just some of the ways the whole thing _should_ have gone down.
 >But it didn't. Now, after the fact, you have to scurry around
 >>seeking the self-same>"consensus" and strong popular backing
 >>which should have been the _first_ thing on the need-to-do
 >>list. Not the tenth thing. Most, if not all, of this popular
 >>support that you seek should have>already been in place.

 >>To get the kind of "broad-based" backing you seek, you need to
 >allow folks to have a say in things. To actively participate in
 >the process.>That's the 'American Way' Steve. A panel/group of
 >>bright, experienced individuals heading up this thing, who can
 >>nurture and direct it properly,>would almost ensure its success
 >>on the front end.Folks who have been _voted_ in to the
 >>positions by members of the UFO community and its many
 >>organizations would enjoy enormous popular support. It just will
 >>not go to a self-appointed "representative" with a personal
 >>political agenda. Much of which is unrelated to actual UFO
 >>disclosure anyway.

 >>And while there is a break in the 'action'...

 >>The witnesses also need to be>thoroughly/properly screened by
 >>some of the best people available in ufology. For example: If
 >>you put guys like Kevin Randle, Stan Freidman, or a cop like
 >>Royce Myers on a job like this, I can promise you that whatever
 >>witnesses survive their screening process will be bullet-proof,
 >>air-tight-certifiable, and solid gold. That isn't the case now
 >>though is it?

 >>Now is the time to start from scratch.

 >>Seek broad-based consensus. Nominate representatives that folks
 >>can then vote for. Devise a plan of attack that will actually
 >>_accomplish_ something - other than speaking tours and tape
 >>sales. Carefully screen the witnesses. Secure
 >>signatures/petitions via the Internet with thousands of
 >>subscribers all addressed to members of
 >>congress _requesting_open, public hearings. Dance naked in the
 >>pale moon light... do it all. But do it _right_.

 >>With the strong backing and consensus of the all the people
 >>your problems will be solved. _Before_ you send anybody to
 >>represent us all in front of _our_ elected officials, ask _us_
 >>who _we_would like that person(s) to be. Start by making this a
 >>more democratic and representative process and watch how the
 >>numbers of supporters begins to swell. Before Gersten came
 >>along, the membership numbers in CAUS had been sky-rocketing.
 >>This whole process could enjoy that same kind of popular
 >>support too. But not as it presently exists.

 >>I can't tell you how I long to throw my support>behind a
 >>group-effort to secure hearings for total UFO information
 >>disclosure. Like many, many, others, I am still waiting for
 >>that kind of truly grass-roots representative movement>to come
 >>along. In me, you have a potentially powerful, and vocal
 >>advocate. And I'm not just passing gas; I have a popular and
 >>busy website and I'm on the radio (50,000 Watt>station with a
 >>big Internet following) twice a month. Haven't you ever asked
 >>yourself why guys like me, (and there are plenty,) are giving
 >>you all kinds of static - busting your chops - instead of
 >>throwing strong support behind you? Do you ever _really_listen_
 >>to what is being said/expressed? I sometimes wonder if you
 >>dismiss it all as pure malcontent blather. If you do, you are
 >>committing a serious error in judgement about some good people.

 >>Regards, respectfully submitted, a 'true' friend>who cares,...

 >>John Velez, speaking strictly for myself

 >Speaking for myself, of course, I don't care if people have spit
 >on me and beat me up and stomped me in an alley way, if they
 >came up with some rational approach to Congress I would be
 >leading the charge, the first one over the top.

 >But not here and not now. There have been many words spoken and
 >written about The Disclosure Project some in ignorance, and some
 >as mis-representation, and some as complete _non-disclosure_.

 >Ignorance first.

 >We were treated here to the Sheehan story according to Grant
 >Cameron. Unfortunately, Cameron couldn't even get the Sheehan's
 >story straight. Cameron had President Carter using the
 >Congressional Research Office. When Richard Hall posed some
 >rather modest demures, Cameron would hear nothing of these and
 >even questioned how Hall would know anything at all about the
 >subject. Cameron knew how government worked by gum, and who the
 >hell was Richard Hall to tell him otherwise. In the end Sheehan
 >didn't say Carter contacted the Congressional Research Office
 >and many other things put forward by Cameron didn't match
 >Sheehan's version. As with the supposed incident of the Air
 >Force officer's alleged comment, "Go shit in your hat!" in
 >answer to the question on Roswell, it seem that fact checking is
 >not one of Cameron's strong suits, he would rather accept
 >outright as fact anything that agrees with his particular world
 >view. I don't find any apology to Richard Hall by Grant Cameron
 >and any messages setting the record straight.

 >The whole-hearted endorsement by the Disclosure Project of his
 >latest essay on the UFOs and the Clinton administration will, of
 >course, cause problems in Congressional hearings. (More on this
 >later.)

 >Some supporters of the Disclosure Project have stated the
 >following, all of which are wrong:

 >1) There have never been Congressional hearings on UFOs before.
 >Starting in at least in 1956, there were hearings held on the
 >subject. Two public hearings were held by the 1960s, one by the
 >House Armed Services Committee and the other, the Rouse
 >symposium was widely published including in a book by John
 >Fuller.

 >Even Bassett, supposedly ace lobbyist can't get it right: "The
 >only Congressional hearings held previously were conducted in
 >1968 by the House Science and Astronautics Committee (90th
 >Congress, 2nd Session, Committee Print No. 7. "Symposium
 >Unidentified Flying Objects.";)" Not very good on fact checking
 >are you, Steve?


The excerpt you show here is from a Disclosure Project press
release, and, yes it is incorrect. It was republished as is by
X-PPAC. In retrospect, had there been more time, I would have
tried to get back to the DP and get that corrected. I am well
aware of the 1966 hearing. When referring to the hearing process
myself, I usually say "there have been no formal hearings in
Congress on the UFO/ET issue since 1966/68." You referred to a
formal hearing in 1956 and others. I would love to have a list
of any formal hearings prior to 1966 with the title of the
hearing and the committee. It would be useful, and if you have
such a list handy, could you provide it? Thanks.


 >2) "Greer is the only one doing something." No not at all true,
 >a complete and total insult to Dick Hall who has worked on this
 >aspect for decades. In fact, exactly who was it that came in and
 >tried to pass off "The Best Available Evidence" as his? Greer
 >only stopped when threaten by laywers. (No respect for other's
 >property, but look at the copyright restrictions on the
 >Disclosure Project. Highly restrictive!)

 >"Well, old experienced ufologists are just jealous." Emphasis on
 >the old. No, they have been through this before and have an idea
 >how things work. They also are able, from bitter experience, to
 >spot frauds and yarn-spinners which seems to be beyond the
 >ability of those running the Disclosure Project.

 >To nail down facts in cases takes time and money. Most of us,
 >use our grocery money to try to get at the facts. I know that
 >many of us work overtime so that we may take a few weeks out and
 >go on the road and get corroboration of witnesses' statements -
 >not just completely accepting any tall-tale that comes along.

 >"Collecting newspaper clippings is fine, but Greer is doing real
 >work." Sorry, if I gave the impression, all I do is collect
 >clippings. We are working on a number of cases which are
 >important to understanding UFO history, UFOs and the government,
 >and the UFO phenomenon (a) and a lot of this involves time
 >consuming and expensive efforts.

 >Ignorance is strength for Disclosure Project supporters.

 >Misrepresentations:

 >1) One of the first misrepresentation was, of course, the misuse
 >of the The Best Available Evidence by Greer.

 >2) In the Connecticut MUFON newsletter several years ago was a
 >story about how Robert Dean, Steven Greer and Richard Hall of
 >FUFOR were working on a disclosure project. When I sent this to
 >Dick Hall, he, of course, demanded a correction. Seems that this
 >representation was not CT MUFON's at all, but rather just
 >repeating what had been put out by the Disclosure Project
 >associates.

 >3) Now if you look at the some of the videos in the Disclosure
 >Project, you will find that they were not done by Greer at el,
 >but are indeed archived films or done by others.

 >4) Senator Daniel Inouye is shown on the beginning of the
 >Disclosure Video, his clip is just dropped in with all the UFO
 >witnesses. Of course, he wasn't addressing anything to was
 >remotely related to UFOs. A serious misrepresentation.

 >5) Many on the Disclosure Project have former affiliation with
 >instituations such as Stanford Research Institute, but have not
 >current affiliation. Advertisements purchased on Google and in
 >representations elsewhere refer to such affiliations, but what
 >is not mentioned is that these are in the past tense.

 >Outright NON-Disclosures.

 >1) Number One on this list is welding on a Far-Left political
 >agenda item concerning missile defense. Was there any hint of
 >such a thing prior to the press conference? Probably, but you
 >couldn't find any such a thing on the CSETI website. Now maybe
 >Steven Bassett will tell you different, but since a majority of
 >congress are for missile defense, it seems rather daffy to
 >connect this to a UFO hearing. (Many in Congress are opposed to
 >Bush's missile defense, but still want a missile defense.)


It's "Stephen" with a "ph," and I mention that only
because I am often confused with Greer and it helps to
make the distinction.....

It is X-PPAC's position that the matters of SDI, ABM and space
weaponization are very significant policy decisions which should
be vigorously debated in the open, and that key information with
potential impact on such debates, which would certainly include
the presence of extraterrestrials in earth air space, should not
be withheld from the Congress or the public. The principal focus
of X-PPAC has been and will continue to be the end to the
government embargo on the truth regarding an extraterrestrial
presence and the convening of open, comprehensive congressional
hearings to address government employee testimony. How other
organizations choose to address the numerous political questions
which are tangential to the UFO/ET issue, is of course, their
prerogative.


 >2) Non-disclosure to the public and press at the Press
 >Conference of the fact that Greer claims he can vector UFOs in
 >for communication almost at will. (Now people are saying Greer
 >did this in the past and all that was from his early days.
 >Sorry, the CSETI site has now changed, such material was on
 >there this year and well after the Disclosure Project Press
 >Conference. Nice try to push this down a memory hole. (To harp
 >on this once again, if you can vector in UFOs, they can be
 >inspected by various instruments that would absolutely establish
 >what they were. There would be no need for such a thing as a
 >Disclosure Project, one could bring absolute proof to bear, not
 >witnesses' statements.)

 >3) There was no Hunger Strike for Disclosure, it was Dieting for
 >Disclosure. Trying to blame the UFO UpDates List for the failure
 >of this fiasco is beyond belief.

 >Now to Congressional Hearings and a little war story. Many,
 >including, apparently the Disclosure Project, think that
 >Congressmen and Sentators are boobs. Maybe they are! But their
 >staffs are not and are generally made up of highly competent and
 >knowledgeable people.

 >When I was stationed at Fort Sill one of my tasks was to write
 >enlisted Skill Qualification Tests (SQT) for meteorology. I had
 >finished my SQT early, it was checked and we had tried it out
 >using meteorological crewmen assigned to Fort Sill. The tests
 >were at the printers.

 >SQTs had become an item of Congressional interest. One of the
 >important questions was, "Were SQTs measuring soldiers'
 >competence in their jobs?" The subcommittee concerned had
 >thought not and wanted the Army to change the tests - _now_. The
 >Army's interpretation of 'now' was the new tests could be phased
 >in over a year or longer time frame. During a hearing on certain
 >military subjects, the SQT issue was to be revisited, and among
 >the briefers two captains, from Fort Sill, were sent to testify.
 >Later, in a conference in the colonel's office, I heard the
 >outcome as it specifically concerned me.

 >The two captains were only some of the officials to give
 >testimony on the SQT subject, but they were up early. They
 >related how behind one congressman, there was this extremely
 >beautiful woman and went into the details of her physical
 >perfection. They couldn't keep their eyes off her, and they
 >thought she must be some congressmen's mistress. Also, seated
 >next to her was a former Army captain. As the Fort Sill captains
 >started their testimony, the woman and the former Army captain
 >started producing documents from briefcases, writing notes to
 >Congressmen and whispering in their ears.

 >Many things the captains said were challenged, by the
 >Congressmen who seemed to know more than the military men did
 >about the SQT program. The captains remembered the icy stare
 >from the woman researcher. The Army took some big hits that day,
 >and the word went out that now meant _now_, not two years from
 >now. I was ordered to get my tests from the printer and re-write
 >them immediately in the new format.

 >So if the members of the Disclosure Project think they can bring
 >some of the clowns and yarn-spinners they have on their witness
 >list to Congress and they will pass muster at a Congressional
 >hearing, they have another think coming. The Disclosure Project,
 >despite protests to the contrary, did little in vetting their
 >"witnesses". There are some good ones like Salas, but these will
 >be lost in the silliness of "38 levels above Top Secret," etc.

 >Here is my own conspiracy theory on the Disclosure Project - it
 >is not about disclosure at all. The purpose is to discredit the
 >UFO phenomenon so badly that no serious person will ever
 >consider it again. It is constructed so poorly that Congressmen
 >and Senators will remember how silly some of the claims were
 >and will never, ever, take up the subject again.

 >Some of the people on the project are obviously good-hearted,
 >some may have other motives, but many are obviously duped by
 >people who think you can mix bad witnesses and good together and
 >when the dust settles, the Truth will come out. Sorry, you
 >better bring your best team, and they better be checked six ways
 >from Thursday, or you will be the laughing stock.

 >As I said before about people who seem to believe the most
 >outlandish claims:

 >"The people who want to believe this sort of thing will never
 >check dates, or facts, or history, they will just believe any
 >provocative thing placed in front of them. The hunger for this
 >sort of thing is insatiable, that why there are hundreds of UFO
 >conspriacy theories, most contradicting all the others. That
 >doesn't seem to matter. What matters is they explain things in
 >nice little neat packages."


The Disclosure Project is a complex and significant political
initiative trying to impact congressional intransigence to
properly address the UFO/ET reality. X-PPAC supports this
effort. The DP is certainly not without flaws. It could be
improved.

X-PPAC and PRG fully support a working alliance between the "old
guard" ufologists with roots dating back even to the 1950s and
the newer activists and researchers. Such an alliance could be
powerful, but will require a serious effort to understand each
other's approach and viewpoint. Compromise will be necessary. It
always is. No one in this field has a monopoly on the truth or
is in sole possession of the answer to the political impasse.

If another significant political initiative emerges from an
organization or coalition to press for congressional hearings
and an end to the cover-up, X-PPAC and PRG will assist it as
well.

Also, X-PPAC supports the efforts of a number of activists. That
includes Grant Cameron. He has done some excellent work. If
there are flaws in that work, I believe Grant would welcome any
assistance offered in good faith to correct those mistakes.










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   Oct > Oct 5

                    Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 16:24:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 13:31:03 -0400
Subject: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>



SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
October 4, 2001


**      DISCLOSURE OF AGENT IDENTITIES CALLED "TERRORISM"
**      SENATE EASES DOE POLYGRAPH POLICY


DISCLOSURE OF AGENT IDENTITIES CALLED "TERRORISM"

Can even the vilest form of speech be considered "terrorism"?

One wouldn't think so, but that is the upshot of the expanded
definition of terrorism in a bill now pending before Congress.

Specifically, the bill defines the unauthorized disclosure of
the identities of clandestine intelligence agents as terrorism
if it is intended to influence the conduct of goverment behavior
or retaliate against the government.

There is of course a consensus that the disclosure of "covert
agents," particularly with intent to harm the United States, is
a bad thing to do.  That is why there is already a law that
prohibits it, which is called the Intelligence Identities
Protection Act.

But the relation between unauthorized disclosures of agent names
and terrorism is hard to discern.

"This is a speech crime which has no place in this list [of
terrorist activities]," said Morton H. Halperin, a former
Pentagon and State Department official who is now at the Council
on Foreign Relations in Washington.

If it is already against the law, does going further to define
the disclosure of agent identities as "terrorism" make any
difference?  In fact, it does.

In testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee on October 3,
Mr. Halperin noted that Congress had carefully crafted the
Intelligence Identities Protection Act back in 1982 "to ensure
that it would not prevent the press from publishing information
it had acquired by legitimate means. For example, Congress
inserted a bar on conspiracy provisions so that a reporter could
not be accused of conspiring with a source."

"This protection and many others would be swept away if this
crime remains on the list of federal terrorism crimes," he said.

The House version of the anti-terrorism legislation, known as
the "Provide Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and
Obstruct Terrorism (PATRIOT) Act of 2001," addresses the
disclosure of agent identities at Section 306a. See the full
text of the legislation here:

http://cryptome.org/hr2975ih.txt

Morton Halperin's testimony before the Senate Judiciary
Committee is posted here:

http://www.senate.gov/~judiciary/te100301sc-halperin.htm


SENATE EASES DOE POLYGRAPH POLICY

Buried in the Defense Authorization Act approved by the Senate
this week is language that would repeal the Department of
Energy's controversial polygraph policy and replace it with a
more measured polygraph program.

Under the new interim procedures, anyone who does not have
routine access to "Top Secret Restricted Data" could be exempted
from polygraph testing.  In practice, there is very little
information that is classified at the TS/RD level.

The legislation directs the Secretary of Energy to develop a new
counterintelligence polygraph policy, but wisely refrains from
dictating the specific content of that policy.

The text of the new polygraph legislation, which must still be
considered in a House-Senate conference, is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/100301_poly.html

"As we all know, the initial response prompting ... the
polygraph program ... was the situation of security breaches in
our nuclear laboratories," said Senator Jack Reed on September
24.  "We hope and believe that is a thing of the past."

******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@lists.fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:
    subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:
    http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_____________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
(202)454-4691










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   Oct > Oct 5

                   Re: Leeds Conference Review - Shurinov

From: Boris Shurinov <shurinov@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 01:21:44
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 13:35:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Leeds Conference Review - Shurinov


To the List,

I would like to add a different voice to Anthony Chippendale's
"Leeds Conference Review" and to Georgina Bruni's "Nick Pope's
Weird World October 2001". (Fwd Date: 02 Oct 2001.)

This year's conference was the best, they say. OK. But
Chippendale's last paragraph about Mexican researcher Santiago
Yturria Garza is the best of the best.

"The final speaker of the day and of the conference was Mexican
researcher Santiago Yturria Garza... His presentation was
basically an hour-long movie of UFO footage/pictures... but the
most interesting was that of "humanoids" in the air. The footage
wasn't 100% clear but you could easily make out these strange
humanoid figures just "floating" in the sky. I won't say anymore
about it because I have my doubts about its authenticity and I
don't want to comment on it!!"

What is necessary to reduce all speaker's arguments to nonsense?
Not too much, just one footage with "humanoids" floating in the
sky. Especially, at the end of the conference.


Best to all (and to our ufology),

Boris Shurinov










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              Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -

From: Lan Fleming <LanFleming@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 20:23:10 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 13:39:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -


 >From: Donnie Shevlin <dshevlin@charter.net>
 >Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 16:26:56 +0000
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Unidentified Object At World Trade Center?

 >I was asked to look over this video shot of the second crash. At
 >first I thought as everyone else did, "What was that?", but on
 >further review on the actual video footage I found that it was a
 >helicopter. It's passing just above and behind the position of
 >where the camera is located during this video shot.

I assume that you mean the object was passing between the camera
and the building. If it was behind the camera, it wouldn't be in
the picture at all.

 >So, in conclusion, it's a chopper filming the tower destruction.

That is quite impossible, assuming the frame rate shown in the
video clip is 60 frames per second. If the object was at the
same distance from the camera as the building, it was traveling
at a rate of 3800 mph (again, assuming that the elapsed time
between frames on the video clip is 1/60 of a second). A
reasonable height for a helicopter cabin is 5 feet, or .03 times
the width of the buildings (170 feet). A reasonable speed for a
helicopter _might_ be 190 miles per hour (although that seems
pretty fast for a copter flying around between tall buildings in
a city). A speed of 190 mph is 1/20 of the speed the object
would have had if it were at the same distance from the camera
as the building (3800 mph).

For the true speed to be 1/20 of the speed it would have had if
it was close to the building, the distance from the object to
the camera would have to have been 1/20 of the distance from the
camera to the building. But if the object was 20 times closer to
the camera than the building was, it would have to have appeared
20 times bigger than a helicopter would appear if at the same
distance from the camera as the building, or 20 X .03 = 6/10
times the building's width in the video. Yet in the video clip,
the width of the object transverse to the direction of its
motion is less than 1/6 the width of the building. So the
apparent size of the object in the video is at least 10 times
too small for it to be a helicopter.

 >A sad day in all lives, here and abroad. There is no UFO to be
 >spotted.

It was a horrific day, but the object in this video as yet
remains unidentified. If it did pass between the camera and the
building rather than behind the building. It could have been a
small bird. A bird with a body thickness a couple inches wide
and traveling at 40 mph at a distance from the camera 100 times
closer than the camera's distance to the building would produce
the object's apparent speed on the video. But the clip I've seen
strongly suggests that it passed behind the building relative to
the camera's position. I would need to see some good evidence to
the contrary before reaching the conclusion that it was a bird.









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              Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 21:46:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 13:43:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center?
 >Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 17:34:30 +0100

 >>Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 08:21:00 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center?
 >>From: Lan Fleming <LanFleming@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>

 ><snip>

 >Here is an extract from a post that I made to another list on the
 >same topic on the 18/9/01:

 >1. Prior to the attack, NY skies will have been busy with
 >scheduled aircraft, and helicopter traffic. Many of these will
 >still have been airborne at the time and shortly after the
 >incident.

 >2. At the point of impact, debris will have been thrown out in
 >all directions.

Hi Joe, List, Errol ...

Not necessarily. Having been to the WTC and sold them some high
technology safety products after the first blast. I got a look
at the construction. Heavy duty. Really heavy. Sidebar, I am
convinced that there were people in the subasements, alive and
well until they starved to death. Even with a hundred ten floors
on top of them.

However my thinking was that possibly, there was an explosion
which was restricted in it's escape, to a small area, perhaps
one floor or several floors. The explosion contained a goodly
amount of gases and debris, which like liquid thru a pipe, got
up to pretty high velocities on the way out.

The problem with that theory is that the angle of the plane's
ungainly entrance into the WTC was all wrong for this angle of
pressurized detritous.

 >3. After the impact, any light debris, eg tarpaulins, plastic
 >carrier bags, paper etc will still have been floating around
 >for some time.

Having been to the site that first night, I can assure you that
because of (1) the aircrafts' speed and fuel load, there was
little thrown out which was large, intact and unburned. And (2),
the concrete was, at the time of the impact itself, so
powerfull, that everything was litterally pulverized. This
material was largely small in size. Except for the large chunks
of what was formerly humanity, here and there on the ground. It
looked like chunks of concrete but it was not. The reason this
was so, is because it was all covered in that powdered concrete.
Pulverized. Was likely close to what it must have been like to
walk on the moon.

 >4. The video images are generally focussed on the towers, not on
 >any of the several reported objects. This fact, coupled with the
 >small size of the objects, makes it virtually impossible to
 >identify them.

 >5. I have not heard of anyone actually reporting having seen a
 >UFO at the time-all the "reports" that I have come across are
 >people observing "something" on the television.

 >6. Objects that have been identified so far include paper, and a
 >US fighter which was scrambled in an attempt to intercept the
 >second aircraft (unfortunately too late).

 >All of this leads me to the conclusion that there was nothing of
 >any ufological interest in the sky at the time, and if there
 >was, the situation is too chaotic to eliminate the other causes
 >of reports.

 >>Huh? Eyewitness reports are universally considered as
 >>"anecdotal" evidence. Video recordings are documentary evidence.

 >Even if a still from the video clearly showed a Ventubian
 >intergalactic reconnaissance craft Mk.IV, without any eyewitness
 >reports (of which I would expect many, in daylight hours, over a
 >busy city), the video would be regarded as highly suspicious,
 >and not as any kind of evidence.

Wrong. From Mongo. And it was a scout craft. With cha cha balls
on the rear deck.

 >People do not generally check videos of, for example, scheduled
 >tower block demolitions in order to identify every piece of
 >debris that is thrown out from the demolition - such objects are
 >simply regarded as the sort of debris that you would normally
 >expect from such an operation.

 >In my opinion, no matter how hard you study video footage taken
 >from any angle of view, it will not be possible to eliminate
 >debris as the origin of any unidentified object. (Other objects,
 >such as birds/helicopters etc may be identifiable, depending on
 >the quality of the footage).

 >What reason is there to suppose that anything in this case is
 >not debris/conventional objects? Is it a case that people refuse
 >to believe that humans could inflict such horror on humans, and
 >are looking for something non-human to blame?

 >In my view, all this speculation about UFO's being at the scene
 >detract from the real issues involved.

Well said.

Morty









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                Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 11:51:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 13:46:25 -0400
Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Sandow


 >From: Stephen G. Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 19:36:57 EDT
 >Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Bassett
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >The Disclosure Project is a complex and significant political
 >initiative trying to impact congressional intransigence to
 >properly address the UFO/ET reality.

My first problem comes with the words "congressional
intransigence". Yes, Congress isn't inclined to hold the
hearings Steven and others would like. But that's not because
it's intransigent, in the sense of unreasonably stubborn. It
just mirrors the attitude generally found among political people
in America (and, I bet, most other countries). That's the same
attitude you find among opinion leaders in all fields
(journalists, educators, intellectuals, you name it; maybe
everywhere except in the entertainment world).

So, given the context, congress isn't being unreasonable at all.
Wrong, maybe. But you, of all people, need to be realistic about
why disclosure (assuming, of course, that there's anything to
disclose) isn't getting anywhere.

Here's a comparison. You're not going to get far urging Congress
to hold hearings on a national system of free health care.
That's just not on the political agenda in the United States -
even though it's taken for granted throughout the western world.
Congress isn't being "intransigent" on this issue. It just
mirrors public opinion here in the US.


Greg Sandow









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                                 New *U* Map

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 03:06:30 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 13:48:07 -0400
Subject: New *U* Map


Hello all:

I have put up a new UFO map on the *U* Website.

This one is different from the others, it is and overlay of
three separate UFO wave years in the USA (1947, 1957, 1973)
layered as separate colored sightings-dots.

Each of those waves taken separately, seems to favor certain US
regions over others. What seems new, is that the three years
taken together, and excluding all other years, seem to blanket
the USA almost completely.

Please click on:

http://www.larryhatch.net/WAVLAYER.html

The only blank spots are where population density is sparse to
non-existent, almost like some sort of plan.

The same map is shown on George Filer's website.

http://www.filersfiles.com/ufo/ufodatabase.htm

George was kind enough to have the map image color-enhanced for
clarity.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch









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                           Secrecy News -- 10/4/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 16:24:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 15:07:06 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/4/01



SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
October 4, 2001


**      DISCLOSURE OF AGENT IDENTITIES CALLED "TERRORISM"
**      SENATE EASES DOE POLYGRAPH POLICY


DISCLOSURE OF AGENT IDENTITIES CALLED "TERRORISM"

Can even the vilest form of speech be considered "terrorism"?

One wouldn't think so, but that is the upshot of the expanded
definition of terrorism in a bill now pending before Congress.

Specifically, the bill defines the unauthorized disclosure of
the identities of clandestine intelligence agents as terrorism
if it is intended to influence the conduct of goverment behavior
or retaliate against the government.

There is of course a consensus that the disclosure of "covert
agents," particularly with intent to harm the United States, is
a bad thing to do.  That is why there is already a law that
prohibits it, which is called the Intelligence Identities
Protection Act.

But the relation between unauthorized disclosures of agent names
and terrorism is hard to discern.

"This is a speech crime which has no place in this list [of
terrorist activities]," said Morton H. Halperin, a former
Pentagon and State Department official who is now at the Council
on Foreign Relations in Washington.

If it is already against the law, does going further to define
the disclosure of agent identities as "terrorism" make any
difference?  In fact, it does.

In testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee on October 3,
Mr. Halperin noted that Congress had carefully crafted the
Intelligence Identities Protection Act back in 1982 "to ensure
that it would not prevent the press from publishing information
it had acquired by legitimate means. For example, Congress
inserted a bar on conspiracy provisions so that a reporter could
not be accused of conspiring with a source."

"This protection and many others would be swept away if this
crime remains on the list of federal terrorism crimes," he said.

The House version of the anti-terrorism legislation, known as
the "Provide Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and
Obstruct Terrorism (PATRIOT) Act of 2001," addresses the
disclosure of agent identities at Section 306a. See the full
text of the legislation here:

http://cryptome.org/hr2975ih.txt

Morton Halperin's testimony before the Senate Judiciary
Committee is posted here:

http://www.senate.gov/~judiciary/te100301sc-halperin.htm


SENATE EASES DOE POLYGRAPH POLICY

Buried in the Defense Authorization Act approved by the Senate
this week is language that would repeal the Department of
Energy's controversial polygraph policy and replace it with a
more measured polygraph program.

Under the new interim procedures, anyone who does not have
routine access to "Top Secret Restricted Data" could be exempted
from polygraph testing.  In practice, there is very little
information that is classified at the TS/RD level.

The legislation directs the Secretary of Energy to develop a new
counterintelligence polygraph policy, but wisely refrains from
dictating the specific content of that policy.

The text of the new polygraph legislation, which must still be
considered in a House-Senate conference, is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/100301_poly.html

"As we all know, the initial response prompting ... the
polygraph program ... was the situation of security breaches in
our nuclear laboratories," said Senator Jack Reed on September
24.  "We hope and believe that is a thing of the past."

******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@lists.fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:
    subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:
    http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_____________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
(202)454-4691







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                           Re: New *U* Map - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 18:06:12 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 15:36:25 -0400
Subject: Re: New *U* Map - Hall


 >Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 03:06:30 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch
 >To: UFO UpDates
 >Subject: New *U* Map

 >Hello all:

 >I have put up a new UFO map on the *U* Website.

 >This one is different from the others, it is and overlay of
 >three separate UFO wave years in the USA (1947, 1957, 1973)
 >layered as separate colored sightings-dots.

 >Each of those waves taken separately, seems to favor certain US
 >regions over others. What seems new, is that the three years
 >taken together, and excluding all other years, seem to blanket
 >the USA almost completely.

 >Please click on:

 >http://www.larryhatch.net/WAVLAYER.html

 >The only blank spots are where population density is sparse to
 >non-existent, almost like some sort of plan.

Larry,

I have done several large-scale map plottings in the past,
showing trends counter to population density. Your map confirms
this for at least two states: New Mexico (far too many
sightings) and Florida (far too few sightings). I wish you could
plot the 1967 wave. I have data on all the waves and "flaps" into
the 1980s.


Dick










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                           Alfred's Odd Ode #353d

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 06:47:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 15:41:23 -0400
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #353d


It's down to us, Rebecca, it's how we see OUR stars. As tiny points of
distant light, or 'them' more near than far.

It's what WE thought that mattered as we made our feelings
known. Would we improve our lots in life believing we're alone?

Alone in all the cosmos? Alone to contemplate? Alone to go
unwitnessed as we sought some pointless fate? Alone in sad
indifference? Alone to count our beads, alone to be . . . oh,
good or bad -- or something in between...

...Alone to count our blessings? Alone to feel cursed? Alone to
be respected, glad, or disrespected -- hurt? Alone in
satisfaction, or alone to do without? Alone in suffered silence,
or alone to scream and shout?

We're not alone, Rebecca.  We're mired in denial. Around us
breaths a multiverse filled with promise, grace, and style. We
deny the future, we're distracted by the past, and the present
is a fantasy to make that madness last...

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
scurrilous skepti-bunkies.









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              Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -

From: Donnie Shevlin <dshevlin@charter.net>
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 16:14:30 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 02:20:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -


 >Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 20:23:10 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center?
 >From: Lan Fleming <LanFleming@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>From: Donnie Shevlin <dshevlin@charter.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 16:26:56 +0000
 >>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Unidentified Object At World Trade Center?

 >>I was asked to look over this video shot of the second crash. At
 >>first I thought as everyone else did, "What was that?", but on
 >>further review on the actual video footage I found that it was a
 >>helicopter. It's passing just above and behind the position of
 >>where the camera is located during this video shot.

 >I assume that you mean the object was passing between the camera
 >and the building. If it was behind the camera, it wouldn't be in
 >the picture at all.

 >>So, in conclusion, it's a chopper filming the tower destruction.

 >That is quite impossible, assuming the frame rate shown in the
 >video clip is 60 frames per second. If the object was at the
 >same distance from the camera as the building, it was traveling
 >at a rate of 3800 mph (again, assuming that the elapsed time
 >between frames on the video clip is 1/60 of a second). A
 >reasonable height for a helicopter cabin is 5 feet, or .03 times
 >the width of the buildings (170 feet). A reasonable speed for a
 >helicopter _might_ be 190 miles per hour (although that seems
 >pretty fast for a copter flying around between tall buildings in
 >a city). A speed of 190 mph is 1/20 of the speed the object
 >would have had if it were at the same distance from the camera
 >as the building (3800 mph).

 >For the true speed to be 1/20 of the speed it would have had if
 >it was close to the building, the distance from the object to
 >the camera would have to have been 1/20 of the distance from the
 >camera to the building. But if the object was 20 times closer to
 >the camera than the building was, it would have to have appeared
 >20 times bigger than a helicopter would appear if at the same
 >distance from the camera as the building, or 20 X .03 = 6/10
 >times the building's width in the video. Yet in the video clip,
 >the width of the object transverse to the direction of its
 >motion is less than 1/6 the width of the building. So the
 >apparent size of the object in the video is at least 10 times
 >too small for it to be a helicopter.

 >>A sad day in all lives, here and abroad. There is no UFO to be
 >>spotted.

 >It was a horrific day, but the object in this video as yet
 >remains unidentified. If it did pass between the camera and the
 >building rather than behind the building. It could have been a
 >small bird. A bird with a body thickness a couple inches wide
 >and traveling at 40 mph at a distance from the camera 100 times
 >closer than the camera's distance to the building would produce
 >the object's apparent speed on the video. But the clip I've seen
 >strongly suggests that it passed behind the building relative to
 >the camera's position. I would need to see some good evidence to
 >the contrary before reaching the conclusion that it was a bird.

Lan, Group, Hi y'all

I think that you missed the point here, Lan. It's a SHADOW of
the chopper that was above and behind the position of the camera
filming the event in question. It's not an actual object at all
but a shadow of it. If you watch the film in it's entirety, just
focus on the corner of the soon to be hit building, the closes
to the camera. That would be the upper right. Just at the tip.
Keep your eyes there and watch, you will see the shadow move
over that spot. It bends and changes to the shape of the
building.

The reason it moves so quickly is that the shadow is being
displayed in some smoke or mist extending from the building out
towards the camera. The closer the shadow moves towards the
camera, the faster that it becomes. And you'll note that the
smoke or mist is not in a straight line and even with the
camera, the shadow or mist angles downward and away.


All due respect,

Donnie Shevlin









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                           Re: New *U* Map - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 14:12:51 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 02:22:02 -0400
Subject: Re: New *U* Map - Hatch


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: New *U* Map
 >Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 18:06:12 +0000

 >>Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 03:06:30 -0700
 >>From: Larry Hatch
 >>To: UFO UpDates
 >>Subject: New *U* Map

 >>Hello all:

 >>I have put up a new UFO map on the *U* Website.

 >>This one is different from the others, it is and overlay of
 >>three UFO wave years in the USA (1947, 1957, 1973)
 >>layered as separate colored sightings-dots.

 >>Each of those waves taken alone seems to favor certain US
 >>regions over others. What seems new, is that the three years
 >>taken together, and excluding all other years, seem to blanket
 >>the USA almost completely.

 >>Please click on:

 >>http://www.larryhatch.net/WAVLAYER.html

 >>The only blank spots are where population density is sparse to
 >>non-existent, almost like some sort of plan.
- - -

 >Larry,

 >I have done several large-scale map plottings in the past,
 >showing trends counter to population density. Your map confirms
 >this for at least two states: New Mexico (far too many
 >sightings) and Florida (far too few sightings). I wish you could
 >plot the 1967 wave. I have data on all the waves and "flaps" into
 >the 1980s.


Hello Dick:

I'm off to work now. In about 10 hours I can run off some data
and a map for 1967. That is not my busiest year by a long shot.
It might show some interesting geographical distribution
however.

If its striking enough, I might squeeze it onto the maps menu on
the website,  that menu is bulging at the seams. In any case I
can send you images and data; ditto for anyone else interested.

Best!

- Larry









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                     To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It

From: Richard Hall" <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 21:34:47 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 02:25:21 -0400
Subject: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It


Stephen Bassett et al.,

You neatly skip around the substantive arguments and issues
raised by Jan Aldrich (and others) to insist that yours is a
serious initiative, and claim that you wish to embrace old f---s
like me into the fold if we would only bury our differences in a
common cause. Sorry! You have it all wrong. Your cause and
Steven Greer's cause are not my cause, nor the cause of anyone
who values careful, factual, scientific presentation of data. It
will be a cold day in hell before I embrace your (Greer's)
cause. Do you or do you not agree with him and his approach? You
weasel around about that as you do on the entire issue of
arbitrarily including highly controversial political issues in
the "disclosure" movement approach to Congress.

Also, very pertinent to your wish to "embrace" everyone, am I to
assume that you agree with, approve of, and/or condone the truly
wild-eyed extremist political views expressed by Alfred L. Webre
on his web site and in various e-mail exchanges? If you are not
aware of them, I suggest that you become aware of them. He is,
after all, a major spokesperson for your treasured project. Or
is this simply another example of the extremely strange position
you, Greer and Co. have taken that facts, honesty, truth, and
integrity don't matter? The end justifies the means?


Dick Hall










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   Oct > Oct 6

              Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -

From: Lan Fleming <LanFleming@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 18:35:04 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 02:26:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 17:34:30 +0100
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -

<snip>

 >Even if a still from the video clearly showed a Ventubian
 >intergalactic reconnaissance craft Mk.IV, without any eyewitness
 >reports (of which I would expect many, in daylight hours, over a
 >busy city), the video would be regarded as highly suspicious,
 >and not as any kind of evidence.

Only someone who hasn't actually looked at the video could
seriously make such an assertion. The object appears in 5 video
frames, presumably spaced 1/60 of a second apart. It is visible
for less than 1/10 of a second. If the object was traveling at
the rate of speed the video suggests, it would not have been
visible long enough to consciously register with most people who
might have seen it. Why should any eye witness reports be
expected for an object moving so fast it could scarcely be
noticed? Even the Gamma Press cameraman who took the video
apparently didn't notice it.

 >In my view, all this speculation about UFO's being at the scene
 >detract from the real issues involved.

I haven't engaged in speculation. As far as I'm concerned, this
is a "UFO" only because it is unidentied and because the
evidence indicates it is moving at an unusually high speed. All
of the purported UFO footage from the incident I've seen except
this one seem amenable to prosaic explanations. But I hardly
think speculation detracts from the "real issues" any more than
does unreasoning emotionalism, although it's an understandable
human reaction to an event of this enormity.










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                Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 20:02:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 02:33:24 -0400
Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Aldrich


 >From: Stephen G. Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 19:36:57 EDT
 >Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001
 >>Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 11:17:48 -0400

 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 15:09:16 -0400
 >>>UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001

 >>>>From: Steve Bassett <ExPPAC@aol.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 12:00:09 -0400
 >>>>Subject: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001

Steve/Stephen please see my response to your comments below.

<snip>

 >>Even Bassett, supposedly ace lobbyist can't get it right: "The
 >>only Congressional hearings held previously were conducted in
 >>1968 by the House Science and Astronautics Committee (90th
 >>Congress, 2nd Session, Committee Print No. 7. "Symposium
 >>Unidentified Flying Objects.";)" Not very good on fact checking
 >>are you, Steve?

 >The excerpt you show here is from a Disclosure Project press
 >release, and, yes it is incorrect. It was republished as is by
 >X-PPAC. In retrospect, had there been more time, I would have
 >tried to get back to the DP and get that corrected. I am well
 >aware of the 1966 hearing. When referring to the hearing process
 >myself, I usually say "there have been no formal hearings in
 >Congress on the UFO/ET issue since 1966/68." You referred to a
 >formal hearing in 1956 and others. I would love to have a list
 >of any formal hearings prior to 1966 with the title of the
 >hearing and the committee. It would be useful, and if you have
 >such a list handy, could you provide it? Thanks.

Not all hearing were devoted to solely UFOs. However, the 1956
Moss Subcommittee hearing touched on Project Blue Book Special
Report #14. Dr. Leon Davidson had requested a full copy of the
report had difficulties with the Air Force. While Davidson and
CSI NY officials were at the hearings, they did not testify, but
the Air Force received some sharp questioning from the
Subcommittee members. I think this success caused the interest
in further political action involving Congress.

 >>Outright NON-Disclosures.

 >>1) Number One on this list is welding on a Far-Left political
 >>agenda item concerning missile defense. Was there any hint of
 >>such a thing prior to the press conference? Probably, but you
 >>couldn't find any such a thing on the CSETI website. Now maybe
 >>Steven Bassett will tell you different, but since a majority of
 >>congress are for missile defense, it seems rather daffy to
 >>connect this to a UFO hearing. (Many in Congress are opposed to
 >>Bush's missile defense, but still want a missile defense.)

 >It's "Stephen" with a "ph," and I mention that only
 >because I am often confused with Greer and it helps to
 >make the distinction.....

Okay, Steve, sorry for the murdering your name.

 >It is X-PPAC's position that the matters of SDI, ABM and space
 >weaponization are very significant policy decisions which should
 >be vigorously debated in the open, and that key information with
 >potential impact on such debates, which would certainly include
 >the presence of extraterrestrials in earth air space, should not
 >be withheld from the Congress or the public. The principal focus
 >of X-PPAC has been and will continue to be the end to the
 >government embargo on the truth regarding an extraterrestrial
 >presence and the convening of open, comprehensive congressional
 >hearings to address government employee testimony. How other
 >organizations choose to address the numerous political questions
 >which are tangential to the UFO/ET issue, is of course, their
 >prerogative.

Again, I don't understand how an anti-ballistic missile which
operates in a gravity well has anything to do with ETs. If in
fact, the observed manuevers reported are correct, no missile
can do anything to them.

 >>2) Non-disclosure to the public and press at the Press
 >>Conference of the fact that Greer claims he can vector UFOs in
 >>for communication almost at will. (Now people are saying Greer
 >>did this in the past and all that was from his early days.
 >>Sorry, the CSETI site has now changed, such material was on
 >>there this year and well after the Disclosure Project Press
 >>Conference. Nice try to push this down a memory hole. (To harp
 >>on this once again, if you can vector in UFOs, they can be
 >>inspected by various instruments that would absolutely establish
 >>what they were. There would be no need for such a thing as a
 >>Disclosure Project, one could bring absolute proof to bear, not
 >>witnesses' statements.)

 >>3) There was no Hunger Strike for Disclosure, it was Dieting for
 >>Disclosure. Trying to blame the UFO UpDates List for the failure
 >>of this fiasco is beyond belief.

 >>Now to Congressional Hearings and a little war story. Many,
 >>including, apparently the Disclosure Project, think that
 >>Congressmen and Sentators are boobs. Maybe they are! But their
 >>staffs are not and are generally made up of highly competent and
 >>knowledgeable people.

<snip>

 >>Here is my own conspiracy theory on the Disclosure Project - it
 >>is not about disclosure at all. The purpose is to discredit the
 >>UFO phenomenon so badly that no serious person will ever
 >>consider it again. It is constructed so poorly that Congressmen
 >>and Senators will remember how silly some of the claims were
 >>and will never, ever, take up the subject again.

 >>Some of the people on the project are obviously good-hearted,
 >>some may have other motives, but many are obviously duped by
 >>people who think you can mix bad witnesses and good together and
 >>when the dust settles, the Truth will come out. Sorry, you
 >>better bring your best team, and they better be checked six ways
 >>from Thursday, or you will be the laughing stock.

 >>As I said before about people who seem to believe the most
 >>outlandish claims:

 >>"The people who want to believe this sort of thing will never
 >>check dates, or facts, or history, they will just believe any
 >>provocative thing placed in front of them. The hunger for this
 >>sort of thing is insatiable, that why there are hundreds of UFO
 >>conspriacy theories, most contradicting all the others. That
 >>doesn't seem to matter. What matters is they explain things in
 >>nice little neat packages."

 >The Disclosure Project is a complex and significant political
 >initiative trying to impact congressional intransigence to
 >properly address the UFO/ET reality. X-PPAC supports this
 >effort. The DP is certainly not without flaws. It could be
 >improved.

 >X-PPAC and PRG fully support a working alliance between the "old
 >guard" ufologists with roots dating back even to the 1950s and
 >the newer activists and researchers. Such an alliance could be
 >powerful, but will require a serious effort to understand each
 >other's approach and viewpoint. Compromise will be necessary. It
 >always is. No one in this field has a monopoly on the truth or
 >is in sole possession of the answer to the political impasse.

 >If another significant political initiative emerges from an
 >organization or coalition to press for congressional hearings
 >and an end to the cover-up, X-PPAC and PRG will assist it as
 >well.

Speaking for myself only, again, I would say if you want such a
coalition you must be prepared to leave behind a lot of baggage.
Here is what I think should happen as a minimum:

1) The spokespersons should be people without, shall we say,
colorful ufological pasts.

2) All witnesses would be vetted. The creditials would be
checked by a committee who were familiar with
government/military personnel procedures. They would document
the witnesses careers and establish that they were indeed who
they represent themselves to be.

3) This "Coalition" would be an an ad hoc body and as such the
subject would be UFOs, other political philosophy from the right
or left would have to be left behind as would anti-ABM action.
You can be against it all you want, but for the Coalition such
links would have to be broken.

4. Damp down hype about how evil the government is, you want
cooperation not confrontation.

5. An agenda and goals which all would agree on and okayed and
sign as binding agreement.

I suggest that John Velez, Steven Kaeser, Francis Ridge, Jim
Klotz and Dick Hall as the initial negotiators with the DP for
any such coalition. (I just volunteered these people without
consulting them so some might not want to touch this with a ten
foot pole.) There needs to have a lot of confidence building
here.

 >Also, X-PPAC supports the efforts of a number of activists. That
 >includes Grant Cameron. He has done some excellent work. If
 >there are flaws in that work, I believe Grant would welcome any
 >assistance offered in good faith to correct those mistakes.

I think a good faith action on Grant Cameron's part would be to
reconcile his version of the Sheehan saga as posted by him here on
UFO Updates with the transcript of Sheehan's comments on Errol's
'Strange Days....Indeed'.

My own experience shows that officials have obfuscated important
cases and have not been forthcoming wth records. I think the
above represents important matters which should be taken up by
members of Congress.

Also, most ufologists, activists or whatever do not realize the
extent of record keeping in the government. It might be said
that the government answered questions and FOIA requests in what
might be termed a proper manner, but it has not certainly not
volunteered information from the above mentioned sources.

It is possible to produce a number of witnesses that support
each others stories and who are in turn supported by official
document currently available to the public. Such witnesses are
more convincing than just one person telling a story, especially
when "little" enhancements creep into the tale.

I personally doubt that anything will come from this because I
suspect powerful hidden personal and "commercial" agendas are
involved here.

Again speaking for myself.


Jan Aldrich









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   Oct > Oct 6

                          Research Update AFM 200-3

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 18:40:50 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 02:37:11 -0400
Subject: Research Update AFM 200-3


Greetings to the List Members:

An original copy of AFM 200-3, dated May 1953, has been
obtained. The title of this document is, 'Handbook for Air
Intelligence Officers', with a security classification of
Restricted.

This is the document of the infamous illustration of an Air
Force B-47 bomber being attacked by three flying saucers and
taking evasive action.

The caption with this illustration reads:

"The Air Technical Intelligence Center is responsible for the
prevention of technological surprise."

The section detailing Air Technical Intelligence is comprised of
six pages, but there is no mention directly of crypto-aeronautic
issues. However, it does give an excellent overview of the
mission of Air Technical Intelligence.

The manual is 100 pages, illustrated with Appendicies,
Bibliography, Index and comprising the following sections:

01. Introduction to Air Intelligence
02. Operational Intelligence
03. Pre & Post Mission Activities
04. Maps, Charts and Grid Systems
05. Electronics Intelligence
06. Aerial Reconnaissance
07. Photo Intelligence
08. Photo-Radar Intelligence
09. Air Technical Intelligence
10. Flak Intelligence
11. Air Target Intelligence
12. Evasion, Escape & Resisting Enemy Interrogation
13. Counter Intelligence
14. Air Psychological Warfare
15. Administration & Training


Wendy Connors









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                          Circles Grow More Complex

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 02:50:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 02:50:12 -0400
Subject: Circles Grow More Complex

http://www.producer.com/current_news/this_week/contact.html

this document web posted: Thursday October 4, 2001


Circles Grow More Complex

By Ed White
Winnipeg bureau

Mysterious craft have been passing over fields this harvest
season.

A few times this summer, the craft have circled farmers' fields,
which then were discovered to contain crop circles. When the
beings alight from these aircraft, they dash off to inspect the
crop circles before other human beings have a chance.

They are part of Crop Watch 2001, an effort of the
Vancouver-based Canadian Crop Circle Research Network.

"We're still getting reports coming in," said network director
Paul Anderson, who scoured Alberta and Saskatchewan for crop
circles in late summer.

"There have been 17 so far this year."

Anderson's journey was an attempt to capture as much information
as possible about the mysterious circles, which have begun
appearing with greater regularity in North America and England
since first being spotted near Stonehenge, England, in the
1970s.

Anderson wanted to examine the circles before farmers, tourists,
reporters and circle chasers got into them and contaminated the
evidence.

Some of the ones Anderson found this year had no evidence of
human manufacture, a key requirement for a circle to be
considered a mystery.

"We're still convinced this is a genuine phenomenon," said
Anderson, who has seen a number made by human hoaxers.

"In being able to separate the fake ones from the still
unexplained ones, we're making progress."

Anderson doesn't like to speculate on the origin of the circles.
Some people have suggested that space aliens have caused the
circles.

"I don't want to jump to conclusions," said Anderson.

"What is actually causing them, we don't know."

Anderson was lucky this summer when he visited the crop circle
hotbed of Midale, Sask.

It was the site of a series of crop circles in 1999. More were
found this year. So Anderson paid a visit to the town.

He rented a plane to observe the reported circles from the air.
On a flight a couple of days later he discovered, to his
excitement, more circles had appeared. He got there before any
other people to record the phenomenon.

Last week a gigantic, 91-metre-wide crop circle collection was
reported outside Red Deer.

Anderson said this phenomenon is interesting to study because it
keeps developing. The first crop circles found in England were
quite simple, but over the years they have become more complex.

In Canada, which began experiencing crop circling a few years
later, the circles have tended to lag behind the English ones.
But Anderson said they are evolving here too.

"Some of the ones in Saskatchewan are more complex than we're
used to seeing. They're up a notch or two."

Anderson said British crop circle researchers are frustrated by
the number of fake crop circles being made by human jokesters.

There's less hoaxing in Canada, Anderson said. He is convinced
there is something more than human pranksters behind some crop
circles. He just wants to know what it is.

"With most mysteries � UFOs, Bigfoot � it's a question of do
they exist. With this, there's no doubt they exist. What's
causing them?"

Pictures of some of the Canadian crop circles this year can be
found at www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada.













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                Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Bassett

From: Stephen G. Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 01:02:14 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 02:55:58 -0400
Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Bassett


 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001
 >Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 11:51:19 -0400

 >>From: Stephen G. Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 19:36:57 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Bassett
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>The Disclosure Project is a complex and significant political
 >>initiative trying to impact congressional intransigence to
 >>properly address the UFO/ET reality.

 >My first problem comes with the words "congressional
 >intransigence". Yes, Congress isn't inclined to hold the
 >hearings Steven and others would like. But that's not because
 >it's intransigent, in the sense of unreasonably stubborn. It
 >just mirrors the attitude generally found among political people
 >in America (and, I bet, most other countries). That's the same
 >attitude you find among opinion leaders in all fields
 >(journalists, educators, intellectuals, you name it; maybe
 >everywhere except in the entertainment world).

 >So, given the context, congress isn't being unreasonable at all.
 >Wrong, maybe. But you, of all people, need to be realistic about
 >why disclosure (assuming, of course, that there's anything to
 >disclose) isn't getting anywhere.

 >Here's a comparison. You're not going to get far urging Congress
 >to hold hearings on a national system of free health care.
 >That's just not on the political agenda in the United States -
 >even though it's taken for granted throughout the western world.
 >Congress isn't being "intransigent" on this issue. It just
 >mirrors public opinion here in the US.

 >Greg Sandow


That is an interesting analogy. Let's examine it. Health care is
a major issue in the country. It affects tens of millions. It is
openly debated nationwide. There have been many hearings in the
Congress on health care. You would not go to Congress and press
for "free health care hearings" - you wouldn't have to. You
would approach committees with already planned hearings on
health care and request the opportunity to make the case for
this or that approach.

The presence of extraterrestrials is a major issue. Numerous
polls have shown that tens of millions of Americans are
convinced they are here. A similar amount believe the government
is withholding the truth. Yet, there hasn't been a hearing on
this major issue since 1968, and the1966/1968 hearings were less
than satisfactory. That's 33 years. The UFO/ET issue has been in
play world wide. Since 1968, from Congress - nothing. If that
isn't intransigence, what is?

The demand is not for "ETs are real" hearings or "ETs are here
to save us hearings" or "UFO technology is hidden" hearings. It
is for hearings to take testimony from government employees who
have extraordinary information.  The Congress is not being asked
to take a position. It is asked to fact find a major issue which
Congress has run from for three decades. Let the testimony speak
for itself.

The UFO reality is not the only issue the Congress is running
from, and as long as citizens give it license it will run away
from all it can.

The problem is not that the demand for hearings is an
unreasonable request - the problem is not enough people and
organizations will come together behind the demand and make it
so. They are too busy nailing opinions to trees to climb up to
the top of one and see the forest.


SB










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              Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 13:23:46 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 14:59:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -


 >Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 20:23:10 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center?
 >From: Lan Fleming <LanFleming@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>From: Donnie Shevlin <dshevlin@charter.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 16:26:56 +0000
 >>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Unidentified Object At World Trade Center?

 >>I was asked to look over this video shot of the second crash. At
 >>first I thought as everyone else did, "What was that?", but on
 >>further review on the actual video footage I found that it was a
 >>helicopter. It's passing just above and behind the position of
 >>where the camera is located during this video shot.

 >I assume that you mean the object was passing between the camera
 >and the building. If it was behind the camera, it wouldn't be in
 >the picture at all.

 >>So, in conclusion, it's a chopper filming the tower destruction.

 >That is quite impossible, assuming the frame rate shown in the
 >video clip is 60 frames per second. If the object was at the
 >same distance from the camera as the building, it was traveling
 >at a rate of 3800 mph (again, assuming that the elapsed time
 >between frames on the video clip is 1/60 of a second). A
 >reasonable height for a helicopter cabin is 5 feet, or .03 times
 >the width of the buildings (170 feet). A reasonable speed for a
 >helicopter _might_ be 190 miles per hour (although that seems
 >pretty fast for a copter flying around between tall buildings in
 >a city). A speed of 190 mph is 1/20 of the speed the object
 >would have had if it were at the same distance from the camera
 >as the building (3800 mph).


Lan,

Can I throw in a corrective technical point, NTSC like our PAL
TV standard here in Europe uses a line interlace technique which
means that although each picture is scanned 60 times a sec in
the US system (50 times a second in Europe), each individual scan
only records either odd or even numbered picture lines, these
are then sequentially overlaid to produce the resulting full
frame of 525 or 625 lines.

Because of this line interlacing the actual _full_ frame rate
finally produced is half the field scanning frequency, ie 30fps
in the US and 25fps in Europe.


Neil









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                  Re: Pope & Rendlesham 'Humanoids' - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 13:55:33 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 15:00:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Pope & Rendlesham 'Humanoids' - Bruni


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 23:45:45 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Pope & Rendlesham 'Humanoids'
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Dear Nick, Georgina, Listers,

 >Another question to Nick and Georgina. What is the written date
 >shown on the 5 USAF reports outlining the Redelsham Forest
 >incident? The other questions still stand as asked and awaiting
 >answers.

Lieutenant Fred Buran's statement is dated 2 January 1981

Master Sergeant J.D. Chandler's statement is dated 2 January
1981

Staff Sergeant Jim Penniston's statement is undated, but he told
me that he wrote it approximately a week after the events. He
claims the typed statement is a watered down (summary) version
of his testimony, which he initially penned in ink.

John Burroughs said he wrote his statement after the third night
(his statement is undated).

Airman Edward Cabansag's statement was signed (according to him)
the morning after the event. He claims he did not read the
statement because he was so nervous , he just signed it.


Hope that helps

Georgina Bruni


Coming soon: 9 November is the launch of the paperback of "You
Can't Tell The People".The Definitive Account of the Rendlesham
Forest UFO Mystery by Georgina Bruni. Published by Pan Macmillan
Includes new revelations.  Available on-line at:
www.amazon.co.uk Countries outside UK: www.netstoreusa.com









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                  Re: Pope & Rendlesham 'Humanoids' - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 13:55:35 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 15:02:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Pope & Rendlesham 'Humanoids' - Bruni


 >From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Pope & Rendlesham
 >Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 08:09:30 -0600

 >Dear Nick, Georgina, Listers,


 >Nick, I have several questions for you. I'm sure Georgina can
 >clarify this, if you cannot. Did you have prior knowledge of the
 >information Georgina Bruni presented at the the Leeds
 >Conference? I am referring specifically to the the USAF reports
 >of "humanoid" beings seen at the Rendelsham Forest incident? If
 >so, how do you justify the statement you made in the MOD press
 >report,

What statements concerning "humanoids" are you referring to?
There are no official USAF statements referring to humanoids.

 >Another question. Were the USAF reports available to you,
 >Nick, while you were investigating this incident?

In Nick's UFO Magazine statement he points out that the USAF
witness statements were not in the Rendlesham MOD file.

 >If not, why not?

You may also wish to know that taped evidence was handed to
General Charles Gabriel, the Chief of USAFE, and allegedly this
was not shared with the MOD.

 >Obviously, if Georgina has managed to obtain copies of these
 >reports, they were (or are not now) considered a national
 >security issue, so why was this information withheld from the
 >public initially?

You must consider that both the MOD and USAF have withheld
evidence on this case. Clearly this proves that there was a
cover-up. The only reason the MOD file has been released is
because Lord Hill-Norton and myself have been pushing Parliament
for a release of information.


Georgina Bruni

Coming soon: 9 November is the launch of the paperback of "You
Can't Tell The People".The Definitive Account of the Rendlesham
Forest UFO Mystery by Georgina Bruni. Published by Pan Macmillan
Includes new revelations.  Available on-line at:
www.amazon.co.uk Countries outside UK: www.netstoreusa.com









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              Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 14:23:43 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 15:04:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -


 >Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 18:35:04 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center?
 >From: Lan Fleming <LanFleming@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 17:34:30 +0100
 >>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -

 ><snip>

 >>Even if a still from the video clearly showed a Ventubian
 >>intergalactic reconnaissance craft Mk.IV, without any eyewitness
 >>reports (of which I would expect many, in daylight hours, over a
 >>busy city), the video would be regarded as highly suspicious,
 >>and not as any kind of evidence.
 >
 >Only someone who hasn't actually looked at the video could
 >seriously make such an assertion. The object appears in 5 video
 >frames, presumably spaced 1/60 of a second apart. It is visible
 >for less than 1/10 of a second. If the object was traveling at
 >the rate of speed the video suggests, it would not have been
 >visible long enough to consciously register with most people who
 >might have seen it. Why should any eye witness reports be
 >expected for an object moving so fast it could scarcely be
 >noticed? Even the Gamma Press cameraman who took the video
 >apparently didn't notice it.

You are correct, I haven't looked at it. After looking at the
first two clips with reported UFO's, I decided that nothing lay
behind the reports.

My point really is why, if nothing has been reported by
eyewitnesses, are people carrying out frame by frame studies of
these tapes? I am sure that if such studies were carried out on
every piece of video, many more such "UFO's" would be uncovered,
not because they are alien spacecraft, but because they are
things that we normally wouldn't notice, eg insects/dust passing
in front of the lens etc.

If it makes any difference, call it a "Rod". It still brings us
no closer to identifying the objects that most people would
classify as a UFO.

As for the estimated speed, if it was a solid object, where are
all the sonic boom reports? If it was only supersonic at the
exact moment of the atrocity then why didn't people see it
before or after? Also, it could well have been visible to people
at a greater distance from the site at the time the video was
taken.. By all means, if it interests you, get it analysed, but
I am sure that nothing of any substance will be learned from it.

 >>In my view, all this speculation about UFO's being at the scene
 >>detract from the real issues involved.

 >I haven't engaged in speculation. As far as I'm concerned, this
 >is a "UFO" only because it is unidentied and because the
 >evidence indicates it is moving at an unusually high speed. All
 >of the purported UFO footage from the incident I've seen except
 >this one seem amenable to prosaic explanations. But I hardly
 >think speculation detracts from the "real issues" any more than
 >does unreasoning emotionalism, although it's an understandable
 >human reaction to an event of this enormity.

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree here, I
don't think that I will be able to convince you that further
analysis is futile, and unless you do come up with some
interesting results, you won't be able to convince me that it is
worth spending time on.

Best wishes,

Joe









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              Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Strickland

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 08:31:07 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 15:07:20 -0400
Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Strickland


 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001
 >Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 20:02:22 -0400

 >>From: Stephen G. Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 19:36:57 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001
 >>>Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 11:17:48 -0400

 >>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>>Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 15:09:16 -0400
 >>>>UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001

 >>>>>From: Steve Bassett <ExPPAC@aol.com>
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>>Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 12:00:09 -0400
 >>>>>Subject: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001

Dear Stephen, John, Jan, Listers,

I'm glad this debate is on-going. It's important and vital to
all of us if we are to form a "broad-based", cooperative
coalition. Whew! That would be a milestone, wouldn't it!? What
remains unclear to many are the specific goals both of these
organizations wish to achieve, mostly because the methods used
seem to negate the stated purposes.

It is my humble opinion that if Jan Aldrich and Richard Hall
have trouble defining exactly what the objective purposes are
behind the Disclosure Project and X-PPAC, your organizations
have a major communication problem.

You're _not_ communicating a clear, well-defined message.

If these 2 people have a problem with understanding your
motives, much less your organization's methods, you and Greer
should take a hint. They have more individual brain-power and
analytical acuity than _all_ of the so-called experts sitting on
the Disclosure Project's politically-military-based panel put
together.

If you want to succeed... listen to them. Take their advice.
Otherwise, you're shooting yourselves in the feet.


Sincerely,

Sue Strickland
ex-abductee








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               Re: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 07:43:13 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 15:13:03 -0400
Subject: Re: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It - McCoy


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It
 >Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 21:34:47 +0000

 >Stephen Bassett et al.,

 >You neatly skip around the substantive arguments and issues
 >raised by Jan Aldrich (and others) to insist that yours is a
 >serious initiative, and claim that you wish to embrace old f---s
 >like me into the fold if we would only bury our differences in a
 >common cause. Sorry! You have it all wrong. Your cause and
 >Steven Greer's cause are not my cause, nor the cause of anyone
 >who values careful, factual, scientific presentation of data. It
 >will be a cold day in hell before I embrace your (Greer's)
 >cause. Do you or do you not agree with him and his approach? You
 >weasel around about that as you do on the entire issue of
 >arbitrarily including highly controversial political issues in
 >the "disclosure" movement approach to Congress.

 >Also, very pertinent to your wish to "embrace" everyone, am I to
 >assume that you agree with, approve of, and/or condone the truly
 >wild-eyed extremist political views expressed by Alfred L. Webre
 >on his web site and in various e-mail exchanges? If you are not
 >aware of them, I suggest that you become aware of them. He is,
 >after all, a major spokesperson for your treasured project. Or
 >is this simply another example of the extremely strange position
 >you, Greer and Co. have taken that facts, honesty, truth, and
 >integrity don't matter? The end justifies the means?


Hello, all Dick.

Well said Dick, I like the "cold day" remark. You are right,
Congress isn't going to give the time of day to most of these
Klowns, even if they drop the politics. Just how are they
supposed to be taken seriously if the main agenda is:"Our space
bro. are not happy with your missle defence, position on peace,
love and Terrorisum. etc." How do the Klowns know? There are
some folks on the List who have had some very unpleasant things
done to them by our "brothers" hardly something to encourage
intra-Galactic harmony (Cheer up, only 150 years till we go
kick some alien butt - if the "Enterprise" saga holds up<G>.)

Levity aside, there is a need for real reasearch, real questions
by real people, (yes include sceptics too) folks who do not
have an 'agenda' or are driven by politics, like so many of my
gereration.

What is frusterating to me is the Klowns get the media because
they know that they are getting their fifiteen minutes even
though they make fools of themselves.

There were some good witnesses mixed in, but the media loves the
wackos - and the lack of fact-checking for the sake of "inclusion"
does great harm to any serious people who are trying to say
something above cacophony of the center ring. Maybe that's the
purpose - think about it.


GT McCoy











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                   Re: Research Update AFM 200-3 - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 09:50:28 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 15:14:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Update AFM 200-3 - Connors


The following is an excerpt from AFM 200-3.

AIR TECHNICAL INTELLIGENCE

Air technical intelligence may be defined as the knowledge of
scientific and technological developments of foreign powers as
these developments affect the enemy's ability to conduct both
offensive and defensive air warfare.

Ever since aircraft and air weapons were first introduced as
implements of war, there has been an inherent need for such
knowledge to insure our national security. As military aviation
has developed, the need for air technical intelligence has grown
in direct proportion.

If this requirement was not recognized widely before World War
II, it was demonstrated most clearly in that conflict when the
enemy began to use new air weapons against the United States and
our allies with the crippling impact of technological surprise.

At the end of World War II, the United States Strategic Bombing
Survey recorded some of the lessons that had been learned with
bitter experience since 1941, and restated, as follows, the
mandatory requirement for air technical intelligence.

"The air war in Europe was marked by continuous developments and
evolution. This process did not stop with VE Day; great strides
have been made since in machines, weapons, and techniques. No
greater or more dangerous mistake could be made than to assume
that the same policies and practices that won the war in Europe
will be sufficient to win the next one."

MISSION OF AIR TECHNICAL INTELLIGENCE

The Strategic Bombing Survey also recommended "continuous and
active scientific research and technical development on a
national scale." accompanied by "a more adequate and integrated
system for the collection and evaluation of intelligence
information." In this way the United States could keep pace with
the evaluation of military aviation throughout the world.

Today the intelligence organizations in the United States Air
Force and Navy is based on a recognition of the needs cited by
this survey. The over-all intelligence missions of the Air
Force, as set forth in Air Force Regulation 200-5, includes the
prevention of "strategic, tactical or technological surprise
from any soure." In other words, the mission of air technical
intelligence is to guard this nation against such surprises as
those encountered in World War II.

[Wendy's comment: The above statement is probably the root of
using flying saucers against a B-47 in the illustration on the
following page. It is obvious that the UFO phenomenon was taken
seriously as a minute probability/possibility, but also
representative of other nations developing advanced aircraft
based on lenticular designs, etc. Thus, the impetus for AVRO
funding, etc.]

The responsibility for prevention of technological surprise has
been assigned to the Air Technical Intelligence Center, within
the Directorate of Intelligence, Headquarters, USAF; and to the
Office of Naval Intelligence, U.S. Navy. Other components of
USAF and USN Intelligence are responsible for security against
strategic and tactical surprise, with all of the above
components working together in an attempt to fulfill the
over-all mission.

[Wendy's comment: Here we have the second definitive
documentation that ATIC was not a component of AMC and answered
directly to DI USAF Hqs. Thus, I was correct in my statement
that T-2 was not answerable to AMC, but was rather an
intelligence component assigned to Wright-Patterson from
September 1947 onwards. Also, that the ONI had definitive roles
entwined with ATIC.]

Sucess in this attempt depends in large measure on our discovery
of reliable information concerning the technical capabilities of
air weapons or weapons systems which have been produced or are
under developments in foreign countries. We need all the
technical information that we can obtain on all the equipment
that any potential enemy may be able to use against us or
against our own air power in the event of war.

[Wendy's comment: Thus, the probibility that UFOs were seriously
considered important intelligence material, cannot be disputed
in any meaningful manner for the times.]


Wendy Connors








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                   Re: Research Update AFM 200-3 - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 10:50:56 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 15:15:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Update AFM 200-3 - Connors


Part Two

The following excerpt is from AFM 200-3 dated May 1953

COLLECTION and EVALUATION of AIR TECHNICAL INTELLIGENCE
INFORMATION

The bits of information used in piecing together the whole
picture of foreign air warfare potentials are collected by air
technical liaison officers (ATLOs), who work overseas on the
staffs of major commands or in the offices of Air and Naval
Attaches. Information is also collected by air technical
intelligence (ATI) teams, who are trained to collect items of
enemy equipment in theatres of war. Other valuable sources of
information are military observers, agents, overt and covert
sources in foreign countries, industrial representatives, aerial
reconnaissance units, and military combat units.

[Wendy's comment: Thus, it appears that during the SIGN
investigation, UFOs may well have been perceived as a possible
immediate threat, but as time passed, this possibility of
immediate threat was discounted, but placed on the back burner
of future possibility. Thus, the divisionary processes in motion
between intelligence officers themselves as to just how the
phenomena was to be further perceived.]

To assist in the collection of the required medical
intelligence, flight surgeons have been placed in the field as
assistant air attaches (medical) at strategically important
posts. The number of flight surgeons serving in this capacity is
small, but the background and training of these officers have
made them keenly aware of the information and intelligence that
is required to preserve our nationl safety.

[Wendy's comment: A very cryptic paragraph, but seems to give
credence and documentation to the work of Keith Chester in this
area. Exactly why this is commented upon within AFM 200-3 seems
rather strange. Some possibilities for inclusion may be taken as
a pointer for the research into atomic engines, etc., which
would have far reaching importance on health issues related to
pilots and crews and the population as a whole, in any event of
engine failure or aircraft crash. Taking this a step further
into speculation, it might be considered important from the
aspect of unknown crash retrieval specimens...i.e., Roswell
incident implications without documentation.]

ATI operations date back to the days of World War II, when the
United States, lacking detailed information about the enemy's
aircraft and air weapons, sent collection teams out into the
battlefields to pick up crashed aircraft and other pieces of
abandoned enemy equipment. From a study of these samples, air
technical intelligence analysts discovered valuable facts about
the equipment, how it was made, and how it worked. In some cases
they even found where it was made. This information on enemy
aircraft and equipment, incidently, furnished new strategic
bombing targets for the allied air forces and thus contributed
materially to the neutralization of the sources of the weapons
that were being used against us.

[Wendy's comment: It is therefore documented that ATIC did, in
fact, work in the field and this leads credence to Col.
Hemstreet's, Major Bilek, George Towels and Alfred Loedding
assertion that T-2 did send a person(s) to Roswell in July 1947,
as it was the mission of T-2 / ATIC to do so and would have been
mandatory. Again, implications without documentation in regards
to Roswell incident specimens.]

ATI teams of World War II made a substantial contribution to the
winning of the war, and there is no intention to permit in the
future the loss of the lessons that have been learned from the
experience of ATI collectors on the fields of battle.

Air technical liaison officers study continuing peacetime
developments in the science and technology of foreign air power.
These officers, trained to spot significant facts in such
developments, report the information through official channels
to air technical intelligence analysts. These analysts, who
receive bits of information from ATLOs throughout the world,
compare, examine, and evaluate the information in the light of
growing files of technical data and in consideration of the
findings of specific investigations, including laboratory tests.
 From this fund of evaluated data, the analysts produce the
over-all picture of foreign capabilities to wage air warfare.

There is no pretense that the picture of these current
capabilities - not to mention the future capabilities of any
potential army - is now complete. There is no pretense that air
technical intelligence now has all the information that is
required for the prevention of technological surprise, today or
tomorrow. Much information that is required for this purpose is
closely guarded by foreign powers, just as military information
about our own developments is closely guarded by our own
military establishment. Much of the information that is needed
for the completion of the picture of foreign capabilities must
be deduced from the scattered bits of data that are obtained
from various sources, i.e., from the analysis of specific pieces
of foreign equipment and from the air technical liaison offers'
continuing exploitation of source materials which they can
discover and develop.

[Wendy's comment: From the perpective of crypto-aeronautics,
Project Blue Book was used in the "over-all picture" scenario by
collecting sighting data, but not directly involved in obtaining
field specimens, except on rare events. Thus, the samplings from
field work would have been turned over to higher authority or to
the ONI for analysis, etc.]

Because of the difficulties of collection and because of the
difficulities which are obviously involved in this required
process of deduction, there are, admittedly, gaps in the total
picture of foreign capabilities. These gaps must be filled in as
quickly and as carefully as possible to provide adequate
safeguards for this nation against sudden, devastating
technological surprise.

[Wendy's comment: Thus, the investigations of the UFO phenomenon
is interlaced with other branches of the armed forces and in
contratual projects within scientific and public institutions.]


Wendy Connors








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                Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 13:11:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 15:17:34 -0400
Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Sandow


 >From: Stephen G. Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 01:02:14 EDT
 >Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Here's a comparison. You're not going to get far urging Congress
 >>to hold hearings on a national system of free health care.
 >>That's just not on the political agenda in the United States -
 >>even though it's taken for granted throughout the western world.
 >>Congress isn't being "intransigent" on this issue. It just
 >>mirrors public opinion here in the US.

 >That is an interesting analogy. Let's examine it. Health care is
 >a major issue in the country. It affects tens of millions. It is
 >openly debated nationwide. There have been many hearings in the
 >Congress on health care. You would not go to Congress and press
 >for "free health care hearings" - you wouldn't have to. You
 >would approach committees with already planned hearings on
 >health care and request the opportunity to make the case for
 >this or that approach.

This makes my point even stronger. Congress is already
interested in health care. So anyone wanting to propose a new
approach - new in this country, anyway - already has a way of
doing it. No need to wave flags and accuse Congress of
intransigence. _That_ approach would be bound to fail.

Clarification, since after all I'm an old '60s radical: I don't
mean that confrontation is never a reasonable tactic. But it's
not the same as political action within the system. I gather
that Stephen's  push for congressional hearings is supposed to
be a move within the system.

 >The presence of extraterrestrials is a major issue. Numerous
 >polls have shown that tens of millions of Americans are
 >convinced they are here. A similar amount believe thegovernment
 >is withholding the truth. Yet, there hasn't been a hearing on
 >this major issue since 1968, and the1966/1968 hearings were less
 >than satisfactory. That's 33 years. The UFO/ET issue has been in
 >play world wide. Since 1968, from Congress - nothing. If that
 >isn't intransigence, what is?

In other words: If Congress doesn't do something _you_ think is
important, then they're being unreasonably stubborn. Millions
upon millions of people believe in astrology. Does that mean
Congress should hold hearings? It's a scandal, right? Here's
this method which could improve the efficiency of government!
All we'd have to do is make sure important government activities
were launched on favorable days. And Reagan already did that, so
there's a precedent. (Well, OK, he didn't do it openly, and it
was more Nancy's idea than his, but still he did it.)

Of course, you think UFOs are more important than astrology, and
have better evidence. But that's only your opinion. Maybe it's
mine, too. But the most important thing here is what Congress's
opinion might be. And there, I'm afraid, we come against an
uncomfortable reality: Many, maybe most people in Congress may
well think UFOs are as silly as astrology. So if you loudly call
them intransigent, they'll just think you're silly, too.

At this stage of the political game, I'd think we'd do better to
mobilize public opinion. If there were large demonstrations
around the country in favor of UFO disclosure, Congress might
well act. Or, for that matter, if UFOs seemed as hot a current
topic as they did in the '60s.

This could be combined with careful behind the scenes activity,
designed to show members of Congress that there were serious
reasons to be concerned. Though careful - as Jan, Dick, and
others have been showing - is not exactly what the Greer
project has been.


Greg Sandow

(Another comparison might be with alternative medicine. The
government has acted in this area, for instance by setting up a
project within the NIH, because many medical people are
interested. If as many scientists were publicly interested in
UFOs, Congress might be more willing to do something.)








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                 Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 15:07:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 15:23:07 -0400
Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Velez


 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001
 >Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 20:02:22 -0400

 >>From: Stephen G. Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 19:36:57 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001
 >>>Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 11:17:48 -0400

 >>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>>Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 15:09:16 -0400
 >>>>UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001

 >>>>>From: Steve Bassett <ExPPAC@aol.com>
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>>Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 12:00:09 -0400
 >>>>>Subject: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001

 >Steve/Stephen please see my response to your comments below.

 ><snip>

 >>>Even Bassett, supposedly ace lobbyist can't get it right: "The
 >>>only Congressional hearings held previously were conducted in
 >>>1968 by the House Science and Astronautics Committee (90th
 >>>Congress, 2nd Session, Committee Print No. 7. "Symposium
 >>>Unidentified Flying Objects.";)" Not very good on fact checking
 >>>are you, Steve?

 >>The excerpt you show here is from a Disclosure Project press
 >>release, and, yes it is incorrect. It was republished as is by
 >>X-PPAC. In retrospect, had there been more time, I would have
 >>tried to get back to the DP and get that corrected. I am well
 >>aware of the 1966 hearing. When referring to the hearing process
 >>myself, I usually say "there have been no formal hearings in
 >>Congress on the UFO/ET issue since 1966/68." You referred to a
 >>formal hearing in 1956 and others. I would love to have a list
 >>of any formal hearings prior to 1966 with the title of the
 >>hearing and the committee. It would be useful, and if you have
 >>such a list handy, could you provide it? Thanks.

 >Not all hearing were devoted to solely UFOs. However, the 1956
 >Moss Subcommittee hearing touched on Project Blue Book Special
 >Report #14. Dr. Leon Davidson had requested a full copy of the
 >report had difficulties with the Air Force. While Davidson and
 >CSI NY officials were at the hearings, they did not testify, but
 >the Air Force received some sharp questioning from the
 >Subcommittee members. I think this success caused the interest
 >in further political action involving Congress.

 >>>Outright NON-Disclosures.

 >>>1) Number One on this list is welding on a Far-Left political
 >>>agenda item concerning missile defense. Was there any hint of
 >>>such a thing prior to the press conference? Probably, but you
 >>>couldn't find any such a thing on the CSETI website. Now maybe
 >>>Steven Bassett will tell you different, but since a majority of
 >>>congress are for missile defense, it seems rather daffy to
 >>>connect this to a UFO hearing. (Many in Congress are opposed to
 >>>Bush's missile defense, but still want a missile defense.)

 >>It's "Stephen" with a "ph," and I mention that only
 >>because I am often confused with Greer and it helps to
 >>make the distinction.....

 >Okay, Steve, sorry for the murdering your name.

 >>It is X-PPAC's position that the matters of SDI, ABM and space
 >>weaponization are very significant policy decisions which should
 >>be vigorously debated in the open, and that key information with
 >>potential impact on such debates, which would certainly include
 >>the presence of extraterrestrials in earth air space, should not
 >>be withheld from the Congress or the public. The principal focus
 >>of X-PPAC has been and will continue to be the end to the
 >>government embargo on the truth regarding an extraterrestrial
 >>presence and the convening of open, comprehensive congressional
 >>hearings to address government employee testimony. How other
 >>organizations choose to address the numerous political questions
 >>which are tangential to the UFO/ET issue, is of course, their
 >>prerogative.

 >Again, I don't understand how an anti-ballistic missile which
 >operates in a gravity well has anything to do with ETs. If in
 >fact, the observed manuevers reported are correct, no missile
 >can do anything to them.

 >>>2) Non-disclosure to the public and press at the Press
 >>>Conference of the fact that Greer claims he can vector UFOs in
 >>>for communication almost at will. (Now people are saying Greer
 >>>did this in the past and all that was from his early days.
 >>>Sorry, the CSETI site has now changed, such material was on
 >>>there this year and well after the Disclosure Project Press
 >>>Conference. Nice try to push this down a memory hole. (To harp
 >>>on this once again, if you can vector in UFOs, they can be
 >>>inspected by various instruments that would absolutely establish
 >>>what they were. There would be no need for such a thing as a
 >>>Disclosure Project, one could bring absolute proof to bear, not
 >>>witnesses' statements.)

 >>>3) There was no Hunger Strike for Disclosure, it was Dieting for
 >>>Disclosure. Trying to blame the UFO UpDates List for the failure
 >>>of this fiasco is beyond belief.

 >>>Now to Congressional Hearings and a little war story. Many,
 >>>including, apparently the Disclosure Project, think that
 >>>Congressmen and Sentators are boobs. Maybe they are! But their
 >>>staffs are not and are generally made up of highly competent and
 >>>knowledgeable people.

 ><snip>

 >>>Here is my own conspiracy theory on the Disclosure Project - it
 >>>is not about disclosure at all. The purpose is to discredit the
 >>>UFO phenomenon so badly that no serious person will ever
 >>>consider it again. It is constructed so poorly that Congressmen
 >>>and Senators will remember how silly some of the claims were
 >>>and will never, ever, take up the subject again.

 >>>Some of the people on the project are obviously good-hearted,
 >>>some may have other motives, but many are obviously duped by
 >>>people who think you can mix bad witnesses and good together and
 >>>when the dust settles, the Truth will come out. Sorry, you
 >>>better bring your best team, and they better be checked six ways
 >>>from Thursday, or you will be the laughing stock.

 >>>As I said before about people who seem to believe the most
 >>>outlandish claims:

 >>>"The people who want to believe this sort of thing will never
 >>>check dates, or facts, or history, they will just believe any
 >>>provocative thing placed in front of them. The hunger for this
 >>>sort of thing is insatiable, that why there are hundreds of UFO
 >>>conspriacy theories, most contradicting all the others. That
 >>>doesn't seem to matter. What matters is they explain things in
 >>>nice little neat packages."

 >>The Disclosure Project is a complex and significant political
 >>initiative trying to impact congressional intransigence to
 >>properly address the UFO/ET reality. X-PPAC supports this
 >>effort. The DP is certainly not without flaws. It could be
 >>improved.

 >>X-PPAC and PRG fully support a working alliance between the "old
 >>guard" ufologists with roots dating back even to the 1950s and
 >>the newer activists and researchers. Such an alliance could be
 >>powerful, but will require a serious effort to understand each
 >>other's approach and viewpoint. Compromise will be necessary. It
 >>always is. No one in this field has a monopoly on the truth or
 >>is in sole possession of the answer to the political impasse.
 >
 >>If another significant political initiative emerges from an
 >>organization or coalition to press for congressional hearings
 >>and an end to the cover-up, X-PPAC and PRG will assist it as
 >>well.

 >Speaking for myself only, again, I would say if you want such a
 >coalition you must be prepared to leave behind a lot of baggage.
 >Here is what I think should happen as a minimum:

 >1) The spokespersons should be people without, shall we say,
 >colorful ufological pasts.

 >2) All witnesses would be vetted. The creditials would be
 >checked by a committee who were familiar with
 >government/military personnel procedures. They would document
 >the witnesses careers and establish that they were indeed who
 >they represent themselves to be.

 >3) This "Coalition" would be an an ad hoc body and as such the
 >subject would be UFOs, other political philosophy from the right
 >or left would have to be left behind as would anti-ABM action.
 >You can be against it all you want, but for the Coalition such
 >links would have to be broken.

 >4. Damp down hype about how evil the government is, you want
 >cooperation not confrontation.

 >5. An agenda and goals which all would agree on and okayed and
 >sign as binding agreement.

 >I suggest that John Velez, Steven Kaeser, Francis Ridge, Jim
 >Klotz and Dick Hall as the initial negotiators with the DP for
 >any such coalition. (I just volunteered these people without
 >consulting them so some might not want to touch this with a ten
 >foot pole.) There needs to have a lot of confidence building
 >here.

 >>Also, X-PPAC supports the efforts of a number of activists. That
 >>includes Grant Cameron. He has done some excellent work. If
 >>there are flaws in that work, I believe Grant would welcome any
 >>assistance offered in good faith to correct those mistakes.

 >I think a good faith action on Grant Cameron's part would be to
 >reconcile his version of the Sheehan saga as posted by him here on
 >UFO Updates with the transcript of Sheehan's comments on Errol's
 >'Strange Days....Indeed'.

 >My own experience shows that officials have obfuscated important
 >cases and have not been forthcoming wth records. I think the
 >above represents important matters which should be taken up by
 >members of Congress.

 >Also, most ufologists, activists or whatever do not realize the
 >extent of record keeping in the government. It might be said
 >that the government answered questions and FOIA requests in what
 >might be termed a proper manner, but it has not certainly not
 >volunteered information from the above mentioned sources.

 >It is possible to produce a number of witnesses that support
 >each others stories and who are in turn supported by official
 >document currently available to the public. Such witnesses are
 >more convincing than just one person telling a story, especially
 >when "little" enhancements creep into the tale.

 >I personally doubt that anything will come from this because I
 >suspect powerful hidden personal and "commercial" agendas are
 >involved here.

 >Again speaking for myself.


Hi Jan,

We're beating a dead horse here Jan. I'm sure you've been
reading Stephen's "responses." (if they can properly be called
that) And just in case you haven't noticed, he's giving us the
back of his hand. There is no 'meaningful' dialog taking place.
We're expressing our honest thoughts and opinions about the DP,
and Stephen is fending it all off and defending it along with
everyone connected to it. He's not listening. He doesn't want to
hear what we have offer, and he's acting as if he's 'protecting'
something.

Stephen Bassett's  interest in maintaining the status quo
(concerning the DP) as well as his defense of Greer and people
like Grant Cameron is becoming more and more suspicious to me.
What is the nature of the bond/relationship I wonder that causes
him to responds like a paid 'front man' (public relations
officer) for Greer.

Who _are_ these people? Why are we even dignifying them with our
time and attention. Maybe what we really need to do first is
clean house.

Something really _stinks_ here Jan. As 'fishy' as the Fulton
Fish Market on any week night.

Listen man, it's cards on the table time. "Lobbyists" represent
"special interests". Judging by all appearances Stephen Bassett
"represents" Greer and whatever "Greer's" agenda and 'special
interests' are. Staunch (and blind) supporters of that agenda
whether they are credible people or not (eg: Grant Cameron) get
promoted in public while anyone daring to take umbrage at their
shameful displays and machinations are either ignored out of
hand, or dismissed as splitters or malcontents.

We all, myself, Dick Hall, yourself, and many others, continue
to try to 'dialog' (interact) with this crew to no avail.
They're simply not listening. They're not "representing" _us_.
The only thing they care about is advancing their own agenda(s.)
Unless there is 'special interest' money involved somewhere, I
cannot fathom the insistence on tieing issues like 'space based
weapons' and 'free-energy technology' to the base issue of UFO
information disclosure. Nothing else makes any sense. I don't
know 'where' but 'somewhere' in this Samba-line _money_ is
involved.

Think about it Jan. What else could it possibly be?

Time to dump the lot, and take on the work ourselves. To do
whatever we have to do to make open hearings (actually) happen.
I am willing to dedicate time, effort, and what little resources
I can muster to such an effort. As long as it's practical,
'grass-roots' based, and democratic, I'm down.

The question is; is anybody else game?

"Dialoging" with Stephen Bassett, Dr. Greer, or even Grant
Cameron is like talking to a little kids that have their hands
up to their ears and shouting "blah, blah, blah," to block out
the sound of whatever you are saying. I say it's high time we
show the lot of em _our_ backs. Ignore them the same way you
would any child who is being intentionally belligerent.

We have the people, the access to the major groups,
organizations, and individuals that comprise the "UFO
community." (whatever that is.) All that needs to be done is to
put our melons together and organize ourselves. The simple truth
is; we don't need no stinking badges, no "Greer's" no "Bassetts"
no "Cameron's" to do what really needs to be done. They haven't
accomplished s**t anyway. We've nothing to lose and everything
to gain.

Again, I am ready, willing, and able to throw my time, effort,
and support behind an organized, practical, grass-roots
movement, which is democratic both in theory and in practice,
and that has as its single goal and sole purpose the securing of
open, public, congressional hearings on the question of total
UFO related information disclosure.

For the love of Ghod, let's stop banging our heads against this
wall that Greer and Bassett have set-up and do the thing
ourselves. We _don't_need_them! The witnesses are all 'on tape,'
and I'm sure they'll be willing to testify before congress
regardless of whether it's "Greer" or a grass-roots organization
that got them there. All any of them will care about is that
they are sitting before the congress giving testimony. We'll
have our best guys take care of vetting the witnesses. I'm
certain there is enough 'solid gold' in the ranks of those
hundreds of willing witnesses to 'win the day' for all of us
before congress.

We have an awful lot of good people right here Jan. Let's see
who's willing to 'put up.' If we don't do this thing ourselves,
it isn't going to get done. Period. Forget about Greer and
Bassett. That's one dead horse my arms are completely tired of
flogging.


Regards,

John Velez

PS - BTW, Jan, I enjoyed your first response to my post to
Stephen Bassett. I was telling Errol that you used my
'diplomatically' worded post like an Olympian would use a
springy diving board in serious competition. I 'wanted' to say
it like you said it. Next time I won't hold back. It turns out
that some folks are simply not worthy of such gentile
considerations. ;)





                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









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   Oct > Oct 6

              Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -

From: Lan Fleming <LanFleming@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 15:18:29 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 17:54:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center? -


 >From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 13:23:46 +0100
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Unidentified Object at World Trade Center?

<snip>

 >Because of this line interlacing the actual _full_ frame rate
 >finally produced is half the field scanning frequency, ie 30fps
 >in the US and 25fps in Europe.

 >Neil

Thanks. I was hoping there would be some technical discussion
from someone more knowledgeable than I am about video equipment.

A frame rate of 30 per second would cut the apparent speed of
the object on the video to half of what I originally estimated,
from 3800 miles per hour to 1900 miles per hour - supersonic
rather than hypersonic. The lower speed would probably be within
the capabilities of US military aircraft. However, I don't know
if existing operational aircraft can achieve that speed at the
low altitude suggested by the video, especially without
producing any sonic boom.

There has been some research into reduction of sonic boom,
presumably to improve the stealth capabilities of supersonic
jets. Perhaps this was some relatively experimental craft sent
up in a desperate attempt to intercept the second airliner
before it reached the Trade Center.

The government couldn't be faulted for trying just about any
means of stopping the other hijacked planes once they knew the
terrorists were using them as weapons of mass destruction.

BTW: The video clip showing the object seems to have been
removed from the Fox News web site, although all the other clips
from 9/11 are still there.









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              Re: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 17:33:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 17:57:04 -0400
Subject: Re: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It - Aldrich


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It
 >Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 07:43:13 -0700

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It
 >>Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 21:34:47 +0000

 >>Stephen Bassett et al.,

 >>You neatly skip around the substantive arguments and issues
 >>raised by Jan Aldrich (and others) to insist that yours is a
 >>serious initiative, and claim that you wish to embrace old f---s
 >>like me into the fold if we would only bury our differences in a
 >>common cause. Sorry! You have it all wrong. Your cause and
 >>Steven Greer's cause are not my cause, nor the cause of anyone
 >>who values careful, factual, scientific presentation of data. It
 >>will be a cold day in hell before I embrace your (Greer's)
 >>cause. Do you or do you not agree with him and his approach? You
 >>weasel around about that as you do on the entire issue of
 >>arbitrarily including highly controversial political issues in
 >>the "disclosure" movement approach to Congress.

 >>Also, very pertinent to your wish to "embrace" everyone, am I to
 >>assume that you agree with, approve of, and/or condone the truly
 >>wild-eyed extremist political views expressed by Alfred L. Webre
 >>on his web site and in various e-mail exchanges? If you are not
 >>aware of them, I suggest that you become aware of them. He is,
 >>after all, a major spokesperson for your treasured project. Or
 >>is this simply another example of the extremely strange position
 >>you, Greer and Co. have taken that facts, honesty, truth, and
 >>integrity don't matter? The end justifies the means?

 >Hello, all Dick.

 >Well said Dick, I like the "cold day" remark. You are right,
 >Congress isn't going to give the time of day to most of these
 >Klowns, even if they drop the politics. Just how are they
 >supposed to be taken seriously if the main agenda is:"Our space
 >bro. are not happy with your missle defence, position on peace,
 >love and Terrorisum. etc." How do the Klowns know? There are
 >some folks on the List who have had some very unpleasant things
 >done to them by our "brothers" hardly something to encourage
 >intra-Galactic harmony (Cheer up, only 150 years till we go
 >kick some alien butt - if the "Enterprise" saga holds up<G>.)

 >Levity aside, there is a need for real reasearch, real questions
 >by real people, (yes include sceptics too) folks who do not
 >have an 'agenda' or are driven by politics, like so many of my
 >gereration.

 >What is frusterating to me is the Klowns get the media because
 >they know that they are getting their fifiteen minutes even
 >though they make fools of themselves.

 >There were some good witnesses mixed in, but the media loves the
 >wackos - and the lack of fact-checking for the sake of "inclusion"
 >does great harm to any serious people who are trying to say
 >something above cacophony of the center ring. Maybe that's the
 >purpose - think about it.


GT, I agree, some people can't recognize quality.

Recently, Loren Gross and I were in Miami to visit Dr. Willy
Smith. Dr. Smith invited us to go to local MUFON meeting which
was to deal with the Disclosure Project. Here Loren Gross walks
into a local meeting, and no one recognizes him even after he
introduces himself. To me this was so ironic, to be almost
beyond belief!

Loren Gross hardly goes to any such events, but here he walks in
out of the blue to a local MUFON meeting. The poor people there
didn't know who he was. Ten years ago, if I could get Loren to
answer one of my letters, I thought myself fortunate, but these
people didn't have the foggiest who he was. No wonder, the
Disclosure Project gets along so well, people don't know the
good stuff when it is right in front of their faces.

Maybe one day someone will explain to these folks that they a
probably had a once in a life time opporunity to question one of
the most knowledgeable researchers in ufology, and they blew it!


Jan Aldrich









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   Oct > Oct 6

                            Working The Congress

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 22:32:06 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 19:08:03 -0400
Subject: Working The Congress


Appropo of the "Disclosure Project" and how we should go about
trying to persuade the U.S. Congress to hold meaningful hearings
on UFOs, I must say (with all due immodesty) that I have been
there, done that.

Not only did I head the NICAP organization in the only
successful effort to obtain hearings, I then worked for and
retired from Congressional Information Service after a 10+ year
career. But what do I know?

Daniel Sheehan and his would-be interpreter Grant Cameron, while
displaying ignorance of many well-known facts, pretend to have
"inside" knowledge that has escaped all the rest of us. Not!

This whole escapade has become quite silly. I am strongly
convinced that most people on this List don't have a clue about
how ridiculous the entire "pro-UFO" movement looks to
influential people who matter.

I have beat my gums for years trying to point out the necessity
of (a) avoiding constant speculation, (b) disowning and
unequivocally separating ourselves from the "crazies" and (c)
presenting hardcore well-established facts in order to persuade
people who matter to take a new look at UFOs.

My UFO Evidence: Volume II makes a very strong case for UFOs
being something well worth scientific (and political) attention.
If we can't rally around that or equivalent presentations of
evidence, then you might as well forget it.


Dick Hall












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   Oct > Oct 7

                      Re: Working The Congress - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 19:59:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 22:57:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Working The Congress - Felder


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Working The Congress
 >Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 22:32:06 +0000

<snip>

 >This whole escapade has become quite silly. I am strongly
 >convinced that most people on this List don't have a clue about
 >how ridiculous the entire "pro-UFO" movement looks to
 >influential people who matter.

 >I have beat my gums for years trying to point out the necessity
 >of (a) avoiding constant speculation, (b) disowning and
 >unequivocally separating ourselves from the "crazies" and (c)
 >presenting hardcore well-established facts in order to persuade
 >people who matter to take a new look at UFOs.

I just wanted to throw in my two cents into this discussion.

I have to agree with Dick.

Whether we like it or not, whether it hurts or not, whether it
angers us or not, the simple reality of life is that the
majority of people outside the 'UFO Community' are laughing
their collective asses off at the antics of the lunatics that
have attached themselves to the general theme of 'UFO stuff'.

Yes, polls have shown that the majority of the American public
think we are not alone in the universe. I think we can attribute
that more to the influence of "Star Trek" more than we can
attribute it to the efforts of Ufology.

It is my firm belief that until Ufology pays more attention to
the company it keeps, the field will not be taken seriously in
any 'mainstream' venue.

My opinion on the matter.


Bobbie





==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========








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   Oct > Oct 7

               Re: Pope & Rendlesham 'Humanoids' - Strickland

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 19:03:26 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 23:03:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Pope & Rendlesham 'Humanoids' - Strickland


 >From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Pope & Rendlesham 'Humanoids'
 >Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 13:55:35 +0100

 >>From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Pope & Rendlesham
 >>Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 08:09:30 -0600


Dear Georgina, Listers,

First, I want to thank you for your responses to my questions.
It bothers me, however, that it took sooooo long for you and
your investigators to validate the information presented.

I do appreciate your hard work, Georgina, and hope you will
forgive my impatient questions.

I went back through the UFO UpDates Archives to January
2000 to ensure that I have not misunderstood your position in
this case.

I realize that my impatience is due in part to my being an
abductee, and I feel an urgency to find some answers in my
lifetime. I also resent the seemingly intransigence of the
political machinery to address these issues, as I'm sure you and
Lord Hill-Norton do. However, I'm nearly resigned to the fact
that such a thorough investigation as the Rendelsham Forest
incident, whether it takes 1 day or 180 days, would be too long
for me.

I also am delighted to hear that the paperback edition of "You
Can't Tell the People" is about to be released! I want so much
to read your book, but I can't afford the hardback edition at
$50.00. I've been _waiting_ a long time for this paperback to
come out. Have you added an addendum to the paperback version
showing the "new" USAF reports you discussed at the Leeds
Conference last week?

You asked:

 >What statements concerning "humanoids" are you referring to?
 >There are no official USAF statements referring to humanoids.

Groan. Is this another mis-communication? The question that I
had about "humanoids" allegedly seen at the Rendelsham Forest
site was based on information that was included (perhaps
erroneously) in a synopsis of the Leeds Conference, emailed to
UFOUpdates (see sentence 2):

 >>From: Anthony Chippendale <anthonyc@ufon.org>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Leeds Conference Review
 >>Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 16:47:10 +0100

 >>Review of 20th Leeds International UFO Conference
 >>Leeds University - 21 to 23 September 2001
 >>By Anthony Chippendale

 >>She also revealed that there are now five new written statements by
 >>USAF personnel confirming that the incident did occur as reported.
 >>These new witnesses confirm that they saw alien "humanoids"
 >>inside the craft, which allegedly landed in Rendlesham Forest.
 >>Georgina also announced that following extensive research she
 >>has discovered that UFOs landed in the forest in the late 1800s
 >>and even in the 1600s!! She is currently researching this for
 >>more information."

Did Anthony Chippendale misunderstand you? I was not there. I
would really like to see copies of the 5 reports, to see what
the gentlemen had to say.

Also, in your written response to Larry Warren's questions (see
below), you strongly suggest that Col. Williams' presence at the
Rendelsham Forest incident was in doubt. Was he confusing Col.
Williams' with General Charles Gabriel's presence at the site?.
Has the testimony of Col. Williams been made public yet? Do you
have a copy of Col. Williams' and General Gabriel's written
statements concerning the incident and the supposed (perhaps
telepathic) communication which allegedly took place?

After seeing the dates posted on 3 of the 5 USAF reports... only
3-5 days after the initial incident occurred, it seems evident
that the reports were intentionally withheld from the MOD by the
USAFE. Obviously, General Charles Gabriel took his orders from
someone in a higher position that himself. I doubt that he would
have _unilaterally_ decided to withhold the evidence. So, it may
be safe to assume that not only did the US government knowingly
deceive the American public in 1981 concerning this issue, the
powers-that-be are continuing to do so. Not very reassuring at
this time of tragedy for any of us, is it?

I should think it important that an updated version including
these reports be distributed, especially since it took Lord
Hill-Norton and you such extreme effort to obtain copies of the
evidence supporting the reality of the incident.

Thank you again for your complete answers. It is a hard pill to
swallow.


Sincerely,

Sue Strickland
ex-abductee


 >You may also wish to know that taped evidence was handed to
 >General Charles Gabriel, the Chief of USAFE, and allegedly this
 >was not shared with the MOD.
 >
 >>Obviously, if Georgina has managed to obtain copies of these
 >>reports, they were (or are not now) considered a national
 >>security issue, so why was this information withheld from the
 >>public initially?
 >
 >You must consider that both the MOD and USAF have withheld
 >evidence on this case. Clearly this proves that there was a
 >cover-up. The only reason the MOD file has been released is
 >because Lord Hill-Norton and myself have been pushing Parliament
 >for a release of information.
 >
 >
 >Georgina Bruni
 >
 >Coming soon: 9 November is the launch of the paperback of "You
 >Can't Tell The People".The Definitive Account of the Rendlesham
 >Forest UFO Mystery by Georgina Bruni. Published by Pan Macmillan
 >Includes new revelations. Available on-line at:
 >www.amazon.co.uk Countries outside UK: www.netstoreusa.com








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               Re: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It - Webre

From: Alfred Webre <EcoRadio@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 22:32:48 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 23:09:30 -0400
Subject: Re: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It - Webre


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It
 >Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 21:34:47 +0000

 >Also, very pertinent to your wish to "embrace" everyone, am I to
 >assume that you agree with, approve of, and/or condone the truly
 >wild-eyed extremist political views expressed by Alfred L. Webre
 >on his web site and in various e-mail exchanges?

Richard

Ever since I stated on this List I could not remember meeting
you (I still do not remember any meeting with you), you seem to
be taken with demonizing my name on this list by referring to my
political views.  I still do not understand what point you are
trying to make.

Over the past 30 years I have written 5 books and countless
articles and email posts on a variety of subjects ranging from
spirituality to earth changes to electromagnetic weapons to the
Kennedy assassination to Ufology.

True, I was an elected Clinton-Gore delegate at the 1996 Texas
Democratic convention, and perhaps that worries your obviously
conservative sensitivities.

On certain issues, like the anti-Extraterrestrial information
war, I am also a 'conspiracy theorist' and that obviously
disturbs you.

My personal views are protected by the First Amendment, and I
will continue to express them.

My personal views are in the protected domain of my personal
speech, and are separate from organizations I may be working
with.

You and I may be of the same generation, but obviously we are
dimensions apart in political perception and persuasion. So let
us agree to disagree about political issues.

I suggest you stop these ad hominem references to my personal
views, and start reading and addressing my views on issues of
Ufology and the Extraterrestrial presence. I would be glad to
debate them with you here.

Here is an introduction to my views regarding Exopolitics and
the Extraterrestrial presence:

Introduction to Exopolitics

Is there intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe? The true
story unfolding in the Universe may turn our concepts upside
down.

In reality, Earth appears to be an isolated planet in the midst
of a populated Universe. Universe society consists of highly
organized and consciously evolving, advanced civilizations.
Universe civilizations function within our own interstellar
Universe, as well as within other dimensions in the Universe at
large. Advanced Universe civilizations exist in other dimensions
parallel to our own. They access our own planet, galaxy, and all
of interstellar space.

Life-bearing planets such as Earth are part of a collective
Universe whole, operating under Universal law. Think of Earth as
part of a Universe commons. Life is implanted and cultivated
here under the tutelage of more advanced societies, in
accordance with the over-all principles of Universe ecology.

Where necessary, Universal law applies restrictive measures to a
planet that endangers the collective whole. Universe government
can remove a planet from open circulation within Universe
society. This fate appears to have happened to Earth in our
distant past. Earth has suffered for aeons as an exopolitical
outcast among the community of Universe civilizations.

Earth is isolated because it is under intentional quarantine by
a structured, rational Universe society. There are signs around
us of a Universe initiative to reintegrate Earth into
interplanetary society. It is possible that Earth may be
permitted to rejoin Universe society, under certain conditions,
or at a future time certain.

The above version of our Universe reality may sound vaguely
familiar to you. It is the stock of most science fiction, after
all. The notion of a populated Universe may have the ring of
truth for you. It may raise a tingle along the back of your
neck, a truth too close for comfort. Or you may react to the
concept of a populated Universe as flaky and unscientific.

Your own beliefs about a populated Universe - whatever they
might be - fall along a spectrum of public opinion that is
frequently measured. A 1996 Gallup poll showed that 72 percent
of the U.S. adult population believes there is some form of
extraterrestrial life, and 45 percent believes the Earth has
been visited by extraterrestrial life. There are indications
that public opinion about extraterrestrial visitation is similar
in other regions of the planet. The proportion of
extraterrestrial-sensitive world youth may be even higher than
the adult populations who believe in an extraterrestrial
presence.

Nearly 100 million adult humans in the United States of America
(45 percent of the adult population) believe that
extraterrestrial civilization has visited Earth. Approximately
100 million U.S. citizens vote in a U.S. Presidential election
(the U.S. Federal Election Commission reports that 96,277,634
people voted in the 1996 presidential general election)! About
100,000,000 persons voted in the disputed 2000 U.S. Presidential
election.

It is safe to assume that the 100 million US adults who believe
in extraterrestrial life could not all be delusional,
pre-programmed, or brainwashed. These extraterrestrial-sensitive
humans are responding to something they sense is true, deep in
their intuition - that extraterrestrials have visited Earth. It
is also safe to assume that human intuition is reality-oriented
enough to filter out false propaganda from Universe reality. For
example, some extraterrestrial "visitations" are actually
psychological warfare operations conducted by human
military-intelligence agencies.

 From "Exopolitics: A Decade of Contact"
by Alfred Lambremont
Webre, JD, MEd

http://www.ecologynews.com/exoone.html

Alfred Webre
Vancouver, BC
http://www.universebooks.com









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                          31793 Emails And Counting

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 11:25:01 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 23:13:54 -0400
Subject: 31793 Emails And Counting


Morning All

I have just finished migrating my old emails to my new mail
package. I don't use Outlook because there are far to many
virus's that use VBS, but I digress.

I joined the UFO UpDates List back in March 1997. I have kept
just about every email bar Errol's posting protocols. In all of
that time I have 'met' a number of very interesting people,
enjoyed a good debate or ten and generally enjoyed 'being here'.
So I would like to take this opportunity to thank Errol for all
of his unpaid hard work that he has done for all of us people on
this List for all these years.


--

     In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                          Sean Jones
                http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/

P.S. I am in the process of updating my webpages, so I have put
a funny one up for the moment, feel free to check it out.

[33813 as of this one at the Archive --ebk]










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                      Re: Working The Congress - Colaw

From: John Colaw <Scarecrow@colaw.net>
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 13:41:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 23:48:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Working The Congress - Colaw


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Working The Congress
 >Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 22:32:06 +0000

 >Appropo of the "Disclosure Project" and how we should go about
 >trying to persuade the U.S. Congress to hold meaningful hearings
 >on UFOs, I must say (with all due immodesty) that I have been
 >there, done that.

Dear Mr. Hall,

You most certainly have been there, done that. Thank you, sir.

 >Not only did I head the NICAP organization in the only
 >successful effort to obtain hearings, I then worked for and
 >retired from Congressional Information Service after a 10+ year
 >career. But what do I know?

It would be appropriate for the current disclosure movement to
acknowledge this foundation and build upon it, rather than start
a new one from the ground up. Are most members of Congress well
informed regarding this true history of UFO Disclosure in
America? It seems to me that the "giggle factor" has never been
successfully detached from the term "UFO", and that
disinformation has done a splendid job of relegating UFOs to the
ridiculous along with the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus.

Who are the current members of Congress who even begin to look
receptive to honest inquiry into UFO evidence? Would it make
sense to enlist an entire committee's support, for further
patronage of the idea into the halls of Congress?

 >Daniel Sheehan and his would-be interpreter Grant Cameron, while
 >displaying ignorance of many well-known facts, pretend to have
 >"inside" knowledge that has escaped all the rest of us. Not!

Duly noted. Anyone preaching a sermon on disclosure needs to lead
the way themselves with open and examinable forthright evidence
that provides a solid foundation from which to build the new
protocol of disclosure from. Insiders are a dime a dozen. Any
witnesses who cannot withstand intense scrutiny of their stories
or evidence are a liability whose mere presence suggests a
certain self-destructive nature to the entire event. Not being
informed on facts known to the UFO research community at large
tends to splinter rather than unite the groups who need to come
together in order to accompish disclosure.

 >This whole escapade has become quite silly. I am strongly
 >convinced that most people on this List don't have a clue about
 >how ridiculous the entire "pro-UFO" movement looks to
 >influential people who matter.

Seems to me it always gets "silly". Especially when extended
from "pro-UFO" movement to space disarmament or "free energy and
utopia for everyone" messages. What are these agendas doing in a
disclosure movement? It is hard enough to communicate a single
focus for UFO Disclosure without the immediately divisive
approach of all this touch-feely crowd making people squirm with
their tales of the evolved space brotherhood who only need for
us primitive brutes to form a circle, hold hands and sing
Kum-Ba-Yah to the star people. Please, there are alien vehicles
flying in our skies. Let us acknowledge that first, and then we
can go from there.

The voices of love, brotherly peace and channelled prophecy are
always there to intrude and dilute any information or
presentation regarding ET presence on our planet. When I preach
reason and restraint I am labeled a military ops disinformation
agent, or a violence loving zealot who has been duped by the
evil military-industrial establishment into believing that ETs
are anything besides my highly evolved space brother and
teacher. What does that sales pitch have to do with opening
additional congressional hearings on the validity of UFO
evidence and the implication to our society?

 >I have beat my gums for years trying to point out the necessity
 >of (a) avoiding constant speculation, (b) disowning and
 >unequivocally separating ourselves from the "crazies" and (c)
 >presenting hardcore well-established facts in order to persuade
 >people who matter to take a new look at UFOs.

Amen. But those same "crazies" are well entrenched, and their
emotional bait and switch, passive-aggressive tactics make them
a genuine factor in the entire equation. And with people
spouting their abduction or contactee messages from every
corner, it gets harder and harder to motivate a skeptic to look
any deeper into the evidence itself. New Age ET encounter groups
will not permit UFOs to be separated from their own propaganda
and efforts to do so simply reinforces their ranks.

 >My UFO Evidence: Volume II makes a very strong case for UFOs
 >being something well worth scientific (and political) attention.
 >If we can't rally around that or equivalent presentations of
 >evidence, then you might as well forget it.

 >Dick Hall

We need our leaders to rally around it. I know from personal
experience that the government knows about UFOs, and I am at a
loss to grok what is actually happening. I have been meaning to
read your new book since it came out earlier this year. I am in
the process of ordering it now. It is going to take a lot of
continued release of good information to enable the public to
discern the truth amongst the flotsam of UFO material being
presented. Thank you for your own efforts. You demonstrated
resolve and integrity in your stance over the MUFON position,
and there are some of us who do appreciate the efforts of
yourself and those like you. Please continue to lead by example.

Best wishes,
John Colaw

http://www.ufodisclosure.com








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                               Song Sung Blue

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 19:14:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 10:20:32 -0400
Subject: Song Sung Blue



 From inside the solid blue light comes a song sung blue.
But not everybody knows this one.

I danced last night.
With all of my might.
And prayed hard as I played,
To make it all right;
All the misery. All the pain.
But nothing would devour it.
There was no gain.

So I started to weep.
Right there on the street,
Outside the place where I tried to sleep.
In my brand new home. Started counting sheep.
But all I could do, for me ... was weep.

Someone came by. Said, "Why do you cry?"
Said I,
"I cry because God won't let me die.
Got too much on me. Too much to hide.
Were I to die, right here and now,
I could not bear the pain, the burden of shame."
I'd have to live in enternity with misery on tow.

"What shame, human soul?"

"It's too sad to console, and who are you, sir,
who comes in the night, to comfort, to give light?"

I am no one. Exactly. Just a being like you.
Without the body, to extract the dew, the energy
 From which, your mind may construe,
That which is true.
That which is you."

"A riddle you tell. For I know not your meaning.
Tell it the way I can understand without leaning
My ear to my brain, my brain to my ear,
To hear,
To learn from within is not my strong suit.
Kind spirit of love.
I can tell you're in truth."

"The riddle is easy to comprehend.
All you must do is listen my friend.
The voice within you is loud. It is clear.
If only your race could discern it. Prepare.
Prepare to hear the voices within.
If it isn't to hear when you've cheated, and sinned,
Then maybe it's to hear of joy. Not of sin.
Maybe you've learned it all along wrong.
Maybe you've looked for the bad.
Not the good. Maybe you've listened to sad
people who care not for the soul, but only the bad.
May be that God is all love, not fear. Maybe
you've been taught that the opposite's there.
 From this point forward, listen to love.
 From this point on, you'll hear only good.
 From this moment forth, only joy and good will
to lessen the burdens of life and ill will.

 From this moment on. You're not human at all.
Instead you are life. Life within. Stand tall.
Celebrate life. Be joyful and strong. And may
all of your sins be no sins at all.
May they be only mistakes from which to learn.
Then perhaps all will be nothing to burn
at the entrance to hell. For hell is not.
And you are. So stand tall. Afraid be not.
Gain in stature. Be joyful and proud.
For God created you as He created the cloud.

But you, you are special. Unique. A thing of beauty.
Stand tall young human. Do your duty.


Jim Mortellaro








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                                  Book Sale

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 03:07:24 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 10:24:44 -0400
Subject: Book Sale



Hi All,

Just to let you know about my bargain book corner on my site -
please point yourself to the following URL:

http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/Booksell.htm

Please follow the instructions set out on the page if you would
like any of the books.

Best regards,

Roy..







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                         Re: Sheehan Saga - Cameron

From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
Date: 7 Oct 2001 20:04:38 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 10:53:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Sheehan Saga - Cameron


 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001
 >Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 20:02:22 -0400


Jan

Please list the problems you find between my Sheehan article (I
assume you mean the first draft as posted in late June) and the
Sheehan transcript that I also posted on UpDates.

Somehow you seem to be putting out the spin that I am somehow
Sheehan's spokesman in all this. Nothing could be further from
the truth. If I come to the conclusion that Sheehan made up the
story I will be the first to post it.

I used radio transcripts and lectures given by Sheehan for the
first article that I put out. I cc'd a copy to Sheehan for any
corrections, and received no reply. I received no reply to any
further posted discussions I had with you or Dick Hall which
were cc'd to Sheehan.

It was I who provided questions to Errol that were used in the
interview which lead to the transcript. (I also provided a set
of questions to a second person in contact with Sheehan to
resolve questions) Unfortunately Errol did not get to some of
the critical questions. I interviewed Sheehan for two short
interviews by phone to question things which I saw as problems,
and was content with his answers.

I learned shortly after the UpDate discussions took place that
Sheehan was somewhat upset with the letter I sent to Marcia
Smith, and I am therefore now not in any position to resolve any
problems that might exist in his story. (I did however see him
draw the symbols for someone at the Bay Expo after his
workshop.)

As you may know Sheehan has taken a position that he does not
wish to answer questions on this case as in his opinion it would
only lead to more infighting. That is his right, and he must pay
whatever price associated with that decision.

My suggestion to you, is that if you have some problem with his
version of events in 1977, you take on your role as an
investigator and phone him yourself. I will provide you his
phone number. I know he offered to meet with Dick Hall to
resolve any problems Dick had with the story, and as far as I
know Dick never took up Sheehan's offer.

I will resolve whatever I can, but as I have said before I am
not able to resolve the "what-ifs" and the "I think it would
have been done different" opinions that were expressed in the
discussions. I am not a magician.

Grant Cameron









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                   Re: 31793 Emails And Counting - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 20:33:33 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 12:17:07 -0400
Subject: Re: 31793 Emails And Counting - Tonnies


 >Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 11:25:01 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: 31793 Emails And Counting

<snip>

 >I joined the UFO UpDates List back in March 1997. I have kept
 >just about every email bar Errol's posting protocols. In all of
 >that time I have 'met' a number of very interesting people,
 >enjoyed a good debate or ten and generally enjoyed 'being here'.
 >So I would like to take this opportunity to thank Errol for all
 >of his unpaid hard work that he has done for all of us people on
 >this List for all these years.


I second that!  I've been off and on UpDates since '95 and find
myself very greatful for the dedication that's allowed this
forum to exist. Thanks to everyone who's shared interesting
knowledge.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 816-561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
http://mactonnies.com








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                 Re: 31793 Emails And Counting - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 23:33:47 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 12:18:42 -0400
Subject: Re: 31793 Emails And Counting - Mortellaro


 >Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 11:25:01 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: 31793 Emails And Counting


 >Morning All

 >I have just finished migrating my old emails to my new mail
 >package. I don't use Outlook because there are far to many
 >virus's that use VBS, but I digress.

 >I joined the UFO UpDates List back in March 1997. I have kept
 >just about every email bar Errol's posting protocols. In all of
 >that time I have 'met' a number of very interesting people,
 >enjoyed a good debate or ten and generally enjoyed 'being here'.
 >So I would like to take this opportunity to thank Errol for all
 >of his unpaid hard work that he has done for all of us people on
 >this List for all these years.

Me too. But then I arreddy said it B 4. However, I wish to share
with the List, the fact that my beautiful Rosie, who has not
been exactly all that feelgood lately, attempted to go to the
URL you listed, Sean.

She came back telling me that something was wrong with the
address. Naturally, I went to the URL myself and realized
immediately, that there was indeed something wrong with the
site. So I looked at the address, then again, typed it again and
got the same message ...

"This page sucks and cannot be displayed
Etc."

Which I immediately recognized as your funny page. Howsumeva, it
did take about ten minutes for "immediately" to take place.


Al's Heiney








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                      Re: Working The Congress - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 01:35:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 12:22:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Working The Congress - Velez

 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Working The Congress
 >Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 22:32:06 +0000


Hello Dick, hi All,

You write:

 >Appropo of the "Disclosure Project" and how we should go about
 >trying to persuade the U.S. Congress to hold meaningful hearings
 >on UFOs, I must say (with all due immodesty) that I have been
 >there, done that.

Which is why it blows my mind the way Stephen Bassett responds
to you. (in the 'manner' that he does) You'd think he'd be
working overtime trying to turn you into a valuable ally and
picking your brain at every opportunity. Instead of surrounding
himself with the best people available, he shuns them for the
likes of Greer and Sheehan and Cameron. I don't know what that
tells you but, it speaks volumes to me. (Speaking as an
interested observer.)

 >Not only did I head the NICAP organization in the only
 >successful effort to obtain hearings, I then worked for and
 >retired from Congressional Information Service after a 10+ year
 >career. But what do I know?

<LOL>The first mistake you're making is even comparing these
people, and what they are doing, to yourself, and to the
hearings that you were part of helping to secure. You're
comparing your own 'solid gold' to their 'tin'. These folks have
their own agenda Dick and it has absolutely nothing to do with
obtaining congressional hearings. Who knows, aside from selling
witness videotapes, maybe they're laying the groundwork to
create their own "Free Energy" company. Whatever it is, it has
little to do, by comparison, with anything _you_ have done in
the past.   ;)

 >Daniel Sheehan and his would-be interpreter Grant Cameron, while
 >displaying ignorance of many well-known facts, pretend to have
 >"inside" knowledge that has escaped all the rest of us. Not!

Seems to be a 'pattern.' Greer tried to lay that rap on me when
I spoke with him. The old 'source that must remain unnamed'
routine. He recently pulled the same crap with his 'famous
astronaut' announcement. If Off-track betting parlors would take
wagers on whether any of these "facts" will ever be
substantiated or not, I'd get rich betting that they won't.

 >This whole escapade has become quite silly. I am strongly
 >convinced that most people on this List don't have a clue about
 >how ridiculous the entire "pro-UFO" movement looks to
 >influential people who matter.

Crying shame.

 >I have beat my gums for years trying to point out the necessity
 >of (a) avoiding constant speculation, (b) disowning and
 >unequivocally separating ourselves from the "crazies" and (c)
 >presenting hardcore well-established facts in order to persuade
 >people who matter to take a new look at UFOs.

Yeah, I've got more than a few boot-prints on my butt for doing
the same thing. I haven't ever let personal barbs or accusations
stop me though. This is all way too urgent and important an
issue to allow a few needy loonies to dilute/lessen the impact
of the serious work being done by so many. I just want to
reiterate how glad I am that you take the time to keep an active
hand-in by your participation on this List. I know how much crap
you have to put up with in order to continue.

Keep up the always good and valuable work that you do Dick. I
for one am grateful that you are around.


Regards,

John Velez



                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









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                         Re: Book Sale - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:34:10 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 12:24:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Book Sale - Mortellaro


 >Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 03:07:24 +0100
 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Book Sale


 >Hi All,

 >Just to let you know about my bargain book corner on my site -
 >please point yourself to the following URL:

 >http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/Booksell.htm

 >Please follow the instructions set out on the page if you would
 >like any of the books.

 >Best regards,

 >Roy..

Dear Roy, Listers and Errol,

Thank you for the book sale, however the only book I was
interested in purchasing was "Women on Top" and my wifey won't
let me have it. Well, actually that is not quite accurate. She
told me that she WOULD let me have it. If I bought the book. So,
is it possible to send me the title in a plain brown rapper ...
wrapper, sorry? And please, send it to my brother-in-law first.
He'll bend the pages where the good parts are. Unless of course,
you've already done that for us.


Spanking you in advance and paying in Gripple Dripple.

Jim









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                     Missssiippi UFO News Video Report?

From: SMiles Lewis <smiles@elfis.net>
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 09:45:05 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 12:25:46 -0400
Subject: Missssiippi UFO News Video Report?


Hi UpDates eListers,

Below is a link to a recent local news piece on UFOs.

I'm curious if listers find it average, below/above?

To me it seems better than most.

SMiles
www.elfis.net


-=-=-

Charles Hickson and Calvin Parker were fishing on the Pascagoula
River in October of 1973. The men say they were overpowered by
creatures from an alien ship. Calvin Parker had remained fairly
silent about his experience, until 1993.

Watch the 5 min video report on this and other famous sightings
from Mississippi. Requires RealPlayer.

http://wjtv.com/MGBCXATW3SC.html

UFO Mystery, WJTV Channel 12, Mississippi
Eyewitness Videos
by Darren Dedo
Sep 26, 2001









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                           Same Song, Second Verse

From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 07:51:00 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 12:27:54 -0400
Subject: Same Song, Second Verse


Errol

I don't know what you might do with this - perhaps post it, if
you think it interesting.

In light of recent dialogue on this list, I thought some of the
new folks or even some of the old-timers here, might enjoy a
backward glance at what we were discussing a little over 4 years
ago.

I've enclosed the links to the thread below. I'm hopeful that I
didn't leave any out, because there were some great thoughts
posted.

All this kind of proves a point [to me] that I've been mulling
over in head. The more things change, the more they stay the
same. Not a new thought, I know, but an appropriate one. I
certainly haven't done anything to try and change anything
having to do with the study of UFOs and apparently most folks
haven't either, but we sure like to talk about it!

Enjoy!


http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/1997/aug/m15-024.shtml

http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/1997/aug/m15-036.shtml

http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/1997/aug/m15-037.shtml

http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/1997/aug/m15-043.shtml

http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/1997/aug/m15-044.shtml

http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/1997/aug/m16-005.shtml

http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/1997/aug/m16-006.shtml

http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/1997/aug/m17-001.shtml

http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/1997/aug/m17-002.shtml

http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/1997/aug/m17-018.shtml

http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/1997/aug/m17-019.shtml

http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/1997/aug/m17-025.shtml

http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/1997/aug/m18-001.shtml

http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/1997/aug/m18-006.shtml

http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/1997/aug/m18-007.shtml

http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/1997/aug/m18-025.shtml












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   Oct > Oct 8

                  Re: 31793 Emails And Counting - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 18:49:48 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 17:57:17 -0400
Subject: Re: 31793 Emails And Counting - Goldstein


 >Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 11:25:01 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: 31793 Emails And Counting

 >Morning All

 >I have just finished migrating my old emails to my new mail
 >package. I don't use Outlook because there are far to many
 >virus's that use VBS, but I digress.

 >I joined the UFO UpDates List back in March 1997. I have kept
 >just about every email bar Errol's posting protocols. In all of
 >that time I have 'met' a number of very interesting people,
 >enjoyed a good debate or ten and generally enjoyed 'being here'.
 >So I would like to take this opportunity to thank Errol for all
 >of his unpaid hard work that he has done for all of us people on
 >this List for all these years.

 >--

 >   In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
 >             Sean Jones
 >        http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/

 >P.S. I am in the process of updating my webpages, so I have put
 >a funny one up for the moment, feel free to check it out.

 >[33813 as of this one at the Archive --ebk]

My fellow Listerions,

If I give 5 minutes to reading each email that translates to
over 2800 hours I have wasted in these last years. If I had
been working at only $20 per hour that translates to over
$56,000. As a thanks to Errol we should donate an equal amount
to him. <g>

But those figures illustrate what big thanks he deserves. As for
me, how have I gone so wrong? Perhaps Errol can found a support
group for people addicted to Ufology. Man, I could have bought a
new car. Face it, we are addicts. Incurable? Perhaps it is true.
Please help me.


Josh











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   Oct > Oct 8

              Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Strickland

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 11:33:25 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 18:09:12 -0400
Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Strickland


 >Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 15:07:06 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001

 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001
 >>Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 20:02:22 -0400

 >>>From: Stephen G. Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 19:36:57 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001
 >>>>Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 11:17:48 -0400

 >>>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>>>Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 15:09:16 -0400
 >>>>>UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001

 >>>>>>From: Steve Bassett <ExPPAC@aol.com>
 >>>>>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>>>Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 12:00:09 -0400
 >>>>>>Subject: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001

Dear Stephen,

I was hoping you would listen to Richard Hall, Jan Aldrich, GT
McCoy's and John Velez' criticisms and suggestions for possibly
improving the X-PPAC's and Greer's Disclosure Project's
movements. It appears you have not, and have chosen instead to
continue to defend the present stances both of your
organizations have taken. So, despite my reluctance to further
"beat a dead horse," I will try to explain _why_ your
organizations have achieved so little, and will probably fail to
meet your stated goals.

Steve, you wrote:

 >>>It is X-PPAC's position that the matters of SDI, ABM and space
 >>>weaponization are very significant policy decisions which should
 >>>be vigorously debated in the open, and that key information with
 >>>potential impact on such debates, which would certainly include
 >>>the presence of extraterrestrials in earth air space, should not
 >>>be withheld from the Congress or the public. The principal focus
 >>>of X-PPAC has been and will continue to be the end to the
 >>>government embargo on the truth regarding an extraterrestrial
 >>>presence and the convening of open, comprehensive congressional
 >>>hearings to address government employee testimony.

Basically, you've got "the cart before the horse" here. Do you
see how convoluted the basic goals of UFO disclosure become when
the side issues of SDI, ABM, and space weaponization are brought
into the picture? How can you expect Congress to listen to any
rational argument _against_ SDI and missle "defense" issues as
it relates to UFOs, when the general public can't even get their
heads around the basic issue... UFOs exist. They are manned by
scientifically superior beings. Period. Start there.

Furthermore, Steve, there is an innate contradiction in the
platform your 2 organizations are using. It is not logical to
base the education of the public on military-based "expertise",
if at the same time you profess that the ETs are our space
brothers?! (which is the propaganda of the 2 organizations).
Groan.

Huh? Which is it? If the ETs are our space brothers and mean us
no harm, etc. why is the military involved in the issue at all?
To shoot them down? Not shoot them down? If the military is
interested in _not_ shooting them down, why all the concern and
fear expressed by your's and Greer's organizations about SDI and
ABM R&D? So, the military _is_ interested in shooting down ETs?
See Steve, the mixed messages the 2 organizations are
presenting?

As Dick and Jan have pointed out, Congress (and the American
people) have apparently decided that we need some sort of
missile defense system to protect ourselves from the likes of
Osuma Bin Laden and his ilk. A multi-billion $ Bill has already
been passed (2 weeks ago) pushing for more SDI research. Whether
that R&D is successful is another question. _If_ it is
successfully developed, the question remains as to whether that
missile "defense" system will or could be used "defensively" or
"offensively" to shoot down ET craft, thereby putting us in a
war with an intelligence far superior to our own in a cosmos we
are just beginning to explore. If I'm following you correctly,
that is your point and Greer's in including the SDI, ABM missle
reserach into the UFO question. Am I following you and Greer's
thoughts correctly? If not, I'm not surprised.

But, do you see how 'iffy' and clouded the basic issues become
when this round-about method is used within the general context
of educating the American public that UFOs even exist in the
first place? Abductees then become the only _remaining_ group of
people (apart from the military 'in-crowd') who can possibly
understand the seriousness of the correlation your 2
organizations are attempting to make. And, abductees and the
military 'in-crowd' _are_not_ the groups that need to be
educated here.

My point here is this: your organization and Dr. Greer's are
'barking up the wrong tree' and have successfully made a mess of
the whole UFO phenonenon, not only by failing to define the
basic issues, but also by failing to use consistent,
non-contradictory methods to do so, and by addressing the
_wrong_ groups of people to educate.

I think John Velez is correct. We need to start over. The X-PPAC
and Greer's Disclosure Project is a wash-out. And, though I'd
like to participate _in some form_ to gain a "broad-based
coalition," to educate the public, I'd probably be considered
one of the 'crazies' or 'whackos' based on my experiences with
the ETs.

So, although I may be able to help analyze the process fairly
well, I don't think it would be a positive, productive idea to
include me in on a panel of "experiencers." As John Velez once
told me, "Sue, you 'over-identify' with the ETs." He's probably
correct. He usually is. I still don't call _all_ of them
"friends", because I think there's something pathologically
wrong with _anyone_ who continues to physically and knowingly
hurt children. And, I don't care if you think that is based on
some archaic sociological, cultural rationalization or not.
Wherever they're from, or whatever reasons they may have for
doing so, I consider some (not all) of their behaviors wrong.
Period.

The ETs seem to be many and varied in their own personalities
and cultures. But, they perform abductions in 'lock-step' (i.e.,
their methods and procedures for abductions are well-defined and
systematically documented over time). This may be a good jumping
off place for attacking the reality of abductions, _after_ the
general public is made wholly aware of the existence of UFOs.

And, I think children's civil rights under 18 would be duly
protected by law (I realize there is no 'Bill of Rights' for
children, per se, but wouldn't (or couldn't) such children be
protected from identification? Am I correct in my thinking,
Richard? Problem is, I doubt there are many parents of abducteed
children who would allow their children to give testimony, even
after the 'giggle-factor' and evidence of the existence of UFOs
is commonly dispelled or known, as the case may be. I think that
until there are known methods to deter such abductions, the
abductions will continue, and such testimony may only serve to
increase the "fear factor" in the general public (which is
another reason for our government to keep the whole issue
silent). And, SDI and ABM missiles shooting down the ET craft to
avoid such abductions does seems a bit over-reactive, given our
present ignorance on the total phenonmenon.

Furthermore, IF we are in collusion for scientific and/or
technological knowledge with the ETs, and their negative
behaviors are seen as inherently "wrong" by the general public,
but some faction of our government condones those behaviors in
order to gain some nebulous superiority over our fellow human
beings (and/or the ETs), then we and our behaviors become
morally and ethically _wrong_ as well. _If_ we condone ET
abduction behavior, then we aren't any better than the ETs, are
we? That's another hard pill to swallow. They may be
technologically superior, but I have _never_ felt them to be
emotionally mature beings.

So, maybe we should concentrate on the basics first. First,
let's make blankity-blank sure we present solid evidence to the
general public that UFOs exist. Such evidence should be
presented by ufologist researchers ('believers' and 'skeptics'
working together), not some military-based panel of 'experts',
whose agenda only serves to muddy the waters, or 'crazies' and
'whackos', whose bizarre, anectodal experiences, only serve to
ignite an already not-well-understood phenomena.

Afterall, we can't expect any government to allow hearings for
disclosure, if they are in the middle of the whole mess
themselves (as both X-PPAC and Greer's Disclosure Project
insist), and/or in collusion with the ETs. Furthermore, it is
ridiculous to consider that any government would voluntarily
permit individuals to divulge information learned or obtained
while working on such "black" projects with the ETs. We already
have laws on the books forbidding such behavior. Congress is
only trying to strengthen thd law already in effect.

Steve, stop beating a dead horse. Henceforth, I promise to do
like-wise.


Sincerely,

Sue Strickland
ex-abductee








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 8

                Re: Missssiippi UFO News Video Report? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 18:21:16 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 18:11:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Missssiippi UFO News Video Report? - Hall


 >Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 09:45:05 +0000
 >Subject: Missssiippi UFO News Video Report?
 >From: SMiles Lewis
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto

 >Hi UpDates eListers,

 >Below is a link to a recent local news piece on UFOs.
 >I'm curious if listers find it average, below/above?

The heading reminds me of the old joke. The teacher asks the
student to spell Mississippi, but when the student hesitates the
teacher asks what's wrong. Student: "I know how to spell
Mississippi, I just don't know when to stop!"

The news story is fairly typical for a retrospective report.

- Dick










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   Oct > Oct 9

                       Seti@home Expands Its Back Yard

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 00:36:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 00:36:12 -0400
Subject: Seti@home Expands Its Back Yard

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,47365,00.html

Seti@home Expands Its Back Yard
By Farhad Manjoo

2:00 a.m. Oct. 6, 2001 PDT


If E.T. is sending a cute little message our way, the chances
that we'll find it are now a little bit better.

That's because Seti@home - the peer-to-peer computing project
that ties together millions of computers to examine radio waves
coming from space - is planning to increase the band of the
electromagnetic spectrum it analyzes.

The project will now look at up to 20 times more data, a
scientist at Seti@home said, partly because it has so many users
that it is in danger of running out of radio data to send them.

There are two different processes involved in the Seti@home
project - recording the data and analyzing the data. In the
past, the analysis has been the limiting factor; the project had
the ability to record mountains of data coming in from space,
but because of scant computing power, only a small bit of it
could ever be analyzed for extraterrestrial messages.

But there are now 3 million Seti@home users, and thousands of
new people sign up to crunch data each day - making the entire
Seti@home network more powerful than the biggest of
supercomputers.

So powerful, indeed, that "we were running into the possibility
that we'll soon run out of data to process," said Dan Werthimer,
chief scientist at the University of California at Berkeley,
which manages the Seti project.

To solve this problem, Seti@home is installing a Linux-based,
super-fast digital data recorder that was donated by
Hewlett-Packard. According to the company, the new machine can
record data 10 times faster than the previous recorder.

"The data is streaming from 13 telescope feeds at a rate of 5 MB
per second per feed. With more (input and output) capacity,
bandwidth and increased speed, the system is excellent for
real-time programming and has low interrupt latency," HP said in
a statement.

Werthimer, of Seti@home, said that the project is still testing
out the recorder, and that it will be deployed within the next
couple of months.

"When we first install it, we won't use the full capacity," he
said. "We want to plan for growth because more and more people
are signing up everyday, and the people that are already running
it are also upgrading their computers, adding more computing
power."

The electromagnetic spectrum is a continuum - picture it as a
"number line" - of electromagnetic waves of different
wavelengths. Part of the debate in the search for alien life is
what portion of the spectrum to analyze - that is, if aliens
were sending us a message, at what frequency would they choose
to send it?

The Seti@home project has been analyzing the microwave portion
of the band because, Werthimer said, "if E.T. was sending us a
picture on purpose, we figure he'd probably focus there." Since
Werthimer has a charming, albeit suspicious, habit of calling
people "Earthlings" in everyday speech, it's best to trust him
when he says he knows which frequency E.T. would likely choose.

With the new capacity, Seti@home still plans to focus its
analysis only on that microwave region, but now it will be
analyzing a much larger portion of that region, Werthimer said.

"I don't guarantee we'll bag an alien in the next year," he
added, "but eventually Earthlings are going to find out what's
out there."











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   Oct > Oct 9

                     Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:58:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 08:49:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Velez


 >Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 07:51:00 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Same Song, Second Verse
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com


 >Errol

 >I don't know what you might do with this - perhaps post it, if
 >you think it interesting.

<snip>

Hello Mr. Mortellaro, hello All,

You confessed:

 >I certainly haven't done anything to try and change anything
 >having to do with the study of UFOs

I just wanted to grab the opportunity to agree with you on
'something.' "Houston, we have successfully docked with the
pod." :)

 >and apparently most folks haven't either,

That's wrong. Comments like that should always be preceded by,
"speaking for myself" in order to maintain a semblance of
honesty.

 >but we sure like to talk about it!

Some do, some don't. This sounds more like a 'projection' on
your part rather than an objective or even truthful observation.

Regarding this List and its members:

That _was_ a good thread you quoted. Did you participate in it?
It included some really _good people_ that contrary to your
misinterpretations, have made some _genuine_ contributions to
ufology. More than just 'rap'.

I tip my hat to all of those who participated in that thread way
back when. I not only think that people like Dennis Stacy and
Mark Cashman, or my beloved Rebecca (and others) have made
_solid_ contributions to ufology, I think they made _meaningful_
ones. Contributions that only they, because of their unique
points of view, and also because they are so unique as
individuals, could have made.

Speaking _strictly_ for myself.

I came to this List at EBK's invitation. He was being a
'Guardian Angel" by providing myself and Budd Hopkins an outlet
to the public and to the UFO community when we needed it most.
Budd had invited me to participate in a NOVA segment (WGBH/PBS)
to act as a representative of one of his many cases. NOVA was
screwing us over and Errol was the only one who gave us an
opportunity to get our side of the story out to the public. In
gratitude for that and many, many other things, I have always
remained an active and contributing member of the UpDates
family. I love some of these people.

As for you:

It was through me, (AIC) that you yourself were introduced to
this List. Something I'd like to publicly cop to, and apologize
for. You, more than any other, use an almost inordinate amount
of bandwidth criticizing this List and those who participate in
it. You rarely have anything good to say about it. I had held
out some hope that you would prove to be an asset to those of us
who have 'come out' in public with a mind to making a meaningful
contribution. I'm sorry. I completely disagree with your opinion
of this List and with those who contribute to it. If it's such a
waste of time and all talk, what is your purpose in being here?
Frankly I don't think you have a bloody clue as to what this
List is all about.

Most sincerely,

John Velez

            A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
            www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                 johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
   "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."








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   Oct > Oct 9

                       Re: Working The Congress - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 20:32:09 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 08:52:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Working The Congress - Hall


 >Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 13:41:18 -0500
 >From: John Colaw
 >Subject: Re: Working The Congress
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto

 >>From: Richard Hall
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Working The Congress
 >>Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 22:32:06 +0000

 >>Appropo of the "Disclosure Project" and how we should go about

 >trying to persuade the U.S. Congress to hold meaningful hearings
 >>on UFOs, I must say (with all due immodesty) that I have been
 >>there, done that.

 >Dear Mr. Hall,
 >You most certainly have been there, done that. Thank you, sir.

 >>Not only did I head the NICAP organization in the only
 >>successful effort to obtain hearings, I then worked for and
 >>retired from Congressional Information Service after a 10+ year
 >>career. But what do I know?

 >It would be appropriate for the current disclosure movement to
 >acknowledge this foundation and build upon it, rather than start
 >a new one from the ground up. Are most members of Congress well
 >informed regarding this true history of UFO Disclosure in
 >America? It seems to me that the "giggle factor" has never been
 >successfully detached from the term "UFO", and that
 >disinformation has done a splendid job of relegating UFOs to the
 >ridiculous along with the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus.

 >Who are the current members of Congress who even begin to look
 >receptive to honest inquiry into UFO evidence? Would it make
 >sense to enlist an entire committee's support, for further
 >patronage of the idea into the halls of Congress?

 >>Daniel Sheehan and his would-be interpreter Grant Cameron, while
 >>displaying ignorance of many well-known facts, pretend to have
 >>"inside" knowledge that has escaped all the rest of us. Not!

 >Duly noted. Anyone preaching a sermon on disclosure needs to lead
 >the way themselves with open and examinable forthright evidence
 >that provides a solid foundation from which to build the new
 >protocol of disclosure from. Insiders are a dime a dozen. Any
 >witnesses who cannot withstand intense scrutiny of their stories
 >or evidence are a liability whose mere presence suggests a
 >certain self-destructive nature to the entire event. Not being
 >informed on facts known to the UFO research community at large
 >tends to splinter rather than unite the groups who need to come
 >together in order to accompish disclosure.

 >>This whole escapade has become quite silly. I am strongly
 >>convinced that most people on this List don't have a clue about
 >>how ridiculous the entire "pro-UFO" movement looks to
 >>influential people who matter.

 >Seems to me it always gets "silly". Especially when extended
 >from "pro-UFO" movement to space disarmament or "free energy and
 >utopia for everyone" messages. What are these agendas doing in a
 >disclosure movement? It is hard enough to communicate a single
 >focus for UFO Disclosure without the immediately divisive
 >approach of all this touch-feely crowd making people squirm with
 >their tales of the evolved space brotherhood who only need for
 >us primitive brutes to form a circle, hold hands and sing
 >Kum-Ba-Yah to the star people. Please, there are alien vehicles
 >flying in our skies. Let us acknowledge that first, and then we
 >can go from there.

 >The voices of love, brotherly peace and channelled prophecy are
 >always there to intrude and dilute any information or
 >presentation regarding ET presence on our planet. When I preach
 >reason and restraint I am labeled a military ops disinformation
 >agent, or a violence loving zealot who has been duped by the
 >evil military-industrial establishment into believing that ETs
 >are anything besides my highly evolved space brother and
 >teacher. What does that sales pitch have to do with opening
 >additional congressional hearings on the validity of UFO
 >evidence and the implication to our society?

 >>I have beat my gums for years trying to point out the necessity
 >>of (a) avoiding constant speculation, (b) disowning and
 >>unequivocally separating ourselves from the "crazies" and (c)
 >>presenting hardcore well-established facts in order to persuade
 >>people who matter to take a new look at UFOs.

 >Amen. But those same "crazies" are well entrenched, and their
 >emotional bait and switch, passive-aggressive tactics make them
 >a genuine factor in the entire equation. And with people
 >spouting their abduction or contactee messages from every
 >corner, it gets harder and harder to motivate a skeptic to look
 >any deeper into the evidence itself. New Age ET encounter groups
 >will not permit UFOs to be separated from their own propaganda
 >and efforts to do so simply reinforces their ranks.

 >>My UFO Evidence: Volume II makes a very strong case for UFOs
 >>being something well worth scientific (and political) attention.
 >>If we can't rally around that or equivalent presentations of
 >>evidence, then you might as well forget it.

 >We need our leaders to rally around it. I know from personal
 >experience that the government knows about UFOs, and I am at a
 >loss to grok what is actually happening. I have been meaning to
 >read your new book since it came out earlier this year. I am in
 >the process of ordering it now. It is going to take a lot of
 >continued release of good information to enable the public to
 >discern the truth amongst the flotsam of UFO material being
 >presented. Thank you for your own efforts. You demonstrated
 >resolve and integrity in your stance over the MUFON position,
 >and there are some of us who do appreciate the efforts of
 >yourself and those like you. Please continue to lead by example.


John,

Well stated on the current UFO "state-of-the art"; better than I
have been able to articulate it. And thanks for the kind words.

To you and John V., I don't have the economic freedom and
therefore the time to lead another "charge" on Congress.

Furthermore, I fear that the waters have been so badly muddied
now that it will take some major breakthrough, such as a very
large and obvious worldwide UFO sighting wave, to get anywhere
now.

I am very skeptical about the prospects, even more so since we
are now faced with a life and death struggle with earthly
terrorists (in addition to the not-from-this-earth ones). I am
scratching around for retirement funds.

However, if a well-led and responsible Congressional hearing
movement were to arise, willing to build a careful groundwork,
and patiently await an appropriate opportunity, I would be glad
to be an advisor.

Furthermore, I would be willing to make discount (cost) copies
of The UFO Evidence: Volume II available for distribution to key
Members of Congress. I categorically rule out Steven Greer,
Steven Bassett, and Alfred Webre as an acceptable movement.


- Dick










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   Oct > Oct 9

              Re: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:48:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 08:57:53 -0400
Subject: Re: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It - Sandow


 >From: Alfred Webre <EcoRadio@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 22:32:48 EDT
 >Subject: Re: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com (UFO UpDates - Toronto)

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It
 >>Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 21:34:47 +0000

 >>Also, very pertinent to your wish to "embrace" everyone, am I to
 >>assume that you agree with, approve of, and/or condone the truly
 >>wild-eyed extremist political views expressed by Alfred L. Webre
 >>on his web site and in various e-mail exchanges?


I haven't had first-hand contact with Alfred Webre's political
views. But I did note this, in his reply to Dick Hall:

 >True, I was an elected Clinton-Gore delegate at the 1996 Texas
 >Democratic convention, and perhaps that worries your obviously
 >conservative sensitivities.

So let me state that I'm a registered Democrat, before I go any
further, even if I'm not going to comment on politics.

What I want to say is about this:

 >In reality, Earth appears to be an isolated planet in the midst
 >of a populated Universe. Universe society consists of highly
 >organized and consciously evolving, advanced civilizations.
 >Universe civilizations function within our own interstellar
 >Universe, as well as within other dimensions in the Universe at
 >large. Advanced Universe civilizations exist in other dimensions
 >parallel to our own. They access our own planet, galaxy, and all
 >of interstellar space.

 >Life-bearing planets such as Earth are part of a collective
 >Universe whole, operating under Universal law. Think of Earth as
 >part of a Universe commons. Life is implanted and cultivated
 >here under the tutelage of more advanced societies, in
 >accordance with the over-all principles of Universe ecology.

 >Where necessary, Universal law applies restrictive measures to a
 >planet that endangers the collective whole. Universe government
 >can remove a planet from open circulation within Universe
 >society. This fate appears to have happened to Earth in our
 >distant past. Earth has suffered for aeons as an exopolitical
 >outcast among the community of Universe civilizations.

 >Earth is isolated because it is under intentional quarantine by
 >a structured, rational Universe society. There are signs around
 >us of a Universe initiative to reintegrate Earth into
 >interplanetary society. It is possible that Earth may be
 >permitted to rejoin Universe society, under certain conditions,
 >or at a future time certain.

 >The above version of our Universe reality may sound vaguely
 >familiar to you. It is the stock of most science
 >fiction, after all.

It's especially like the ideas in the wonderful C.S. Lewis
trilogy, 'Out Of The Silent Planet', 'Perelandra' and 'That
Hideous Strength'. (Though Lewis gives it all a lovely Christian
spin.)

But talk of this kind, whether one agrees with it or not, has
absolutely no place in any move to persuade the government to
disclose UFO information. Too many people in Washington are
going to think we're crazy just to bring up the prospect of
alien visits at all. To ask them to consider what Mr. Webre has
written - no matter how sincerely he believes it - will make
them think we're really nuts.


Greg Sandow









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   Oct > Oct 9

               Re: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 21:45:18 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 09:03:42 -0400
Subject: Re: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It - Hall


 >From: Alfred Webre
 >Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 22:32:48 EDT
 >Subject: Re: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com (UFO UpDates - Toronto)

 >>From: Richard Hall
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It
 >>Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 21:34:47 +0000

 >>Also, very pertinent to your wish to "embrace" everyone, am I to
 >>assume that you agree with, approve of, and/or condone the truly
 >>wild-eyed extremist political views expressed by Alfred L. Webre
 >>on his web site and in various e-mail exchanges?

 >Richard

 >Ever since I stated on this List I could not remember meeting
 >you (I still do not remember any meeting with you), you seem to
 >be taken with demonizing my name on this list by referring to my
 >political views. I still do not understand what point you are

 >trying to make.

Alfred (and List),

I will insert some direct responses in your text and then append
a statement. The main point I am trying to make is that if List
members took the time to look at your history of far-out
statements (I have repeatedly urged them to do so and to make up
their own minds), they would realize that you are... a pretty
far-out person and not a credible spokesperson for approaching
the Congress or other Government agencies in regard to UFOs.
They should look at www.exopolitics.com and www.ecologynews.com

 >Over the past 30 years I have written 5 books and countless
 >articles and email posts on a variety of subjects ranging from
 >spirituality to earth changes to electromagnetic weapons to the
 >Kennedy assassination to Ufology.

Yes, embracing just about every New Age and/or crackpot notion
yet advanced about "earth changes," psychic forces, mind
control, prophecy... you name it.

 >True, I was an elected Clinton-Gore delegate at the 1996 Texas
 >Democratic convention, and perhaps that worries your obviously
 >conservative sensitivities.

Sorry, but your "obvious" conclusion is false. I am a hardcore
Democrat.

 >On certain issues, like the anti-Extraterrestrial information
 >war, I am also a 'conspiracy theorist' and that obviously
 >disturbs you.

 >My personal views are protected by the First Amendment, and I

 >will continue to express them.

I have never suggested that you should be denied free speech;
only that your ideas are far-out.

 >My personal views are in the protected domain of my personal
 >speech, and are separate from organizations I may be working with.

 >You and I may be of the same generation, but obviously we are
 >dimensions apart in political perception and persuasion. So let
 >us agree to disagree about political issues.

 >I suggest you stop these ad hominem references to my personal
 >views, and start reading and addressing my views on issues of
 >Ufology and the Extraterrestrial presence. I would be glad to
 >debate them with you here.

 >Here is an introduction to my views regarding Exopolitics and
 >the Extraterrestrial presence:

 >Introduction to Exopolitics

 >Is there intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe? The true
 >story unfolding in the Universe may turn our concepts upside
 >down.

 >In reality, Earth appears to be an isolated planet in the midst
 >of a populated Universe. Universe society consists of highly
 >organized and consciously evolving, advanced civilizations.
 >Universe civilizations function within our own interstellar
 >Universe, as well as within other dimensions in the Universe at
 >large. Advanced Universe civilizations exist in other dimensions
 >parallel to our own. They access our own planet, galaxy, and all
 >of interstellar space.

Oh, really? How could you possibly know these things? Is this
revealed "truth?"

 >Life-bearing planets such as Earth are part of a collective
 >Universe whole, operating under Universal law. Think of Earth as
 >part of a Universe commons. Life is implanted and cultivated
 >here under the tutelage of more advanced societies, in

 >accordance with the over-all principles of Universe ecology.

 >Where necessary, Universal law applies restrictive measures to a
 >planet that endangers the collective whole. Universe government
 >can remove a planet from open circulation within Universe
 >society. This fate appears to have happened to Earth in our
 >distant past. Earth has suffered for aeons as an exopolitical
 >outcast among the community of Universe civilizations.

 >Earth is isolated because it is under intentional quarantine by
 >a structured, rational Universe society. There are signs around
 >us of a Universe initiative to reintegrate Earth into
 >interplanetary society. It is possible that Earth may be
 >permitted to rejoin Universe society, under certain conditions,
 >or at a future time certain.

 >The above version of our Universe reality may sound vaguely
 >familiar to you. It is the stock of most science fiction, after
 >all. The notion of a populated Universe may have the ring of
 >truth for you. It may raise a tingle along the back of your
 >neck, a truth too close for comfort. Or you may react to the
 >concept of a populated Universe as flaky and unscientific.

It's not the concept of a populated universe that is flaky and
unscientific, it is your claim to know everything in the
universe that is flaky and unscientific.

 >Your own beliefs about a populated Universe - whatever they
 >might be - fall along a spectrum of public opinion that is
 >frequently measured. A 1996 Gallup poll showed that 72 percent
 >of the U.S. adult population believes there is some form of
 >extraterrestrial life, and 45 percent believes the Earth has
 >been visited by extraterrestrial life. There are indications
 >that public opinion about extraterrestrial visitation is similar
 >in other regions of the planet. The proportion of
 >extraterrestrial-sensitive world youth may be even higher than
 >the adult populations who believe in an extraterrestrial
 >presence.

 >Nearly 100 million adult humans in the United States of America
 >(45 percent of the adult population) believe that
 >extraterrestrial civilization has visited Earth. Approximately
 >100 million U.S. citizens vote in a U.S. Presidential election
 >(the U.S. Federal Election Commission reports that 96,277,634
 >people voted in the 1996 presidential general election)! About
 >100,000,000 persons voted in the disputed 2000 U.S. Presidential
 >election.

 >It is safe to assume that the 100 million US adults who believe
 >in extraterrestrial life could not all be delusional,
 >pre-programmed, or brainwashed. These extraterrestrial-sensitive
 >humans are responding to something they sense is true, deep in
 >their intuition - that extraterrestrials have visited Earth. It
 >is also safe to assume that human intuition is reality-oriented
 >enough to filter out false propaganda from Universe reality. For
 >example, some extraterrestrial "visitations" are actually
 >psychological warfare operations conducted by human
 >military-intelligence agencies.

 >From "Exopolitics: A Decade of Contact"
 >by Alfred Lambremont
 >Webre, JD, MEd

I think you have more or less proved my point with your own
self-quotations, but there is a lot more there, folks, in re:
his ranting anti-government statements and belief in the
"Bildeberger New World Order", George W. Bush's 2000 election as
part of a deliberate "massive covert 'destabilization'
operation" with added vile accusations about Bush that I won't
repeat here (and I am not a Bush fan). In 1974 you predicted
major cataclysms (earthquakes, tidal waves) "in the coming
years." Let's see, it is now 25 years and counting.

With 'UFO friends' like Greer, Webre, and Bassett, who needs
enemies?

  - Dick










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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 9

                    Re: 31793 Emails And Counting - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 22:17:10 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 09:05:28 -0400
Subject: Re: 31793 Emails And Counting - Hall


 >Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 18:49:48 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: 31793 Emails And Counting

 >>Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 11:25:01 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: 31793 Emails And Counting

 >>Morning All

 >>I have just finished migrating my old emails to my new mail
 >>package. I don't use Outlook because there are far to many
 >>virus's that use VBS, but I digress.

 >>I joined the UFO UpDates List back in March 1997. I have kept
 >>just about every email bar Errol's posting protocols. In all of
 >>that time I have 'met' a number of very interesting people,
 >>enjoyed a good debate or ten and generally enjoyed 'being here'.
 >>So I would like to take this opportunity to thank Errol for all
 >>of his unpaid hard work that he has done for all of us people on
 >>this List for all these years.

 >My fellow Listerions,

 >If I give 5 minutes to reading each email that translates to
 >over 2800 hours I have wasted in these last years. If I had
 >been working at only $20 per hour that translates to over
 >$56,000. As a thanks to Errol we should donate an equal amount
 >to him. <g>

 >But those figures illustrate what big thanks he deserves. As for
 >me, how have I gone so wrong? Perhaps Errol can found a support
 >group for people addicted to Ufology. Man, I could have bought a
 >new car. Face it, we are addicts. Incurable? Perhaps it is true.
 >Please help me.

 >Josh

Josh,

We are here for you, brother. Fellow addict (53 years worth).
Unfortunately, it is incurable. But it can be kept under control
with proper counseling and by imbibing the appropriate liquid
'medicines'.


- Dick













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                 Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 22:29:31 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 09:08:38 -0400
Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001 - Hall


 >From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001
 >Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 11:33:25 -0600

 >>Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 15:07:06 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001

 >>>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001
 >>>Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 20:02:22 -0400

 >>>>From: Stephen G. Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 19:36:57 EDT
 >>>>Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001
 >>>>>Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 11:17:48 -0400

 >>>>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>>>>Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 15:09:16 -0400
 >>>>>>UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>>>Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001

 >>>>>>>From: Steve Bassett <ExPPAC@aol.com>
 >>>>>>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>>>>Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 12:00:09 -0400
 >>>>>>>Subject: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001

 >Dear Stephen,

 >I was hoping you would listen to Richard Hall, Jan Aldrich, GT
 >McCoy's and John Velez' criticisms and suggestions for possibly
 >improving the X-PPAC's and Greer's Disclosure Project's
 >movements. It appears you have not, and have chosen instead to
 >continue to defend the present stances both of your
 >organizations have taken. So, despite my reluctance to further
 >"beat a dead horse," I will try to explain _why_ your
 >organizations have achieved so little, and will probably fail to
 >meet your stated goals.

 >Steve, you wrote:

 >>>>It is X-PPAC's position that the matters of SDI, ABM and space
 >>>>weaponization are very significant policy decisions which should
 >>>>be vigorously debated in the open, and that key information with
 >>>>potential impact on such debates, which would certainly include
 >>>>the presence of extraterrestrials in earth air space, should not
 >>>>be withheld from the Congress or the public. The principal focus
 >>>>of X-PPAC has been and will continue to be the end to the
 >>>>government embargo on the truth regarding an extraterrestrial
 >>>>presence and the convening of open, comprehensive congressional
 >>>>hearings to address government employee testimony.

 >Basically, you've got "the cart before the horse" here. Do you
 >see how convoluted the basic goals of UFO disclosure become when
 >the side issues of SDI, ABM, and space weaponization are brought
 >into the picture? How can you expect Congress to listen to any
 >rational argument _against_ SDI and missle "defense" issues as
 >it relates to UFOs, when the general public can't even get their
 >heads around the basic issue... UFOs exist. They are manned by
 >scientifically superior beings. Period. Start there.

 >Furthermore, Steve, there is an innate contradiction in the
 >platform your 2 organizations are using. It is not logical to
 >base the education of the public on military-based "expertise",
 >if at the same time you profess that the ETs are our space
 >brothers?! (which is the propaganda of the 2 organizations).
 >Groan.

 >Huh? Which is it? If the ETs are our space brothers and mean us
 >no harm, etc. why is the military involved in the issue at all?
 >To shoot them down? Not shoot them down? If the military is
 >interested in _not_ shooting them down, why all the concern and
 >fear expressed by your's and Greer's organizations about SDI and
 >ABM R&D? So, the military _is_ interested in shooting down ETs?
 >See Steve, the mixed messages the 2 organizations are
 >presenting?

 >As Dick and Jan have pointed out, Congress (and the American
 >people) have apparently decided that we need some sort of
 >missile defense system to protect ourselves from the likes of
 >Osuma Bin Laden and his ilk. A multi-billion $ Bill has already
 >been passed (2 weeks ago) pushing for more SDI research. Whether
 >that R&D is successful is another question. _If_ it is
 >successfully developed, the question remains as to whether that
 >missile "defense" system will or could be used "defensively" or
 >"offensively" to shoot down ET craft, thereby putting us in a
 >war with an intelligence far superior to our own in a cosmos we
 >are just beginning to explore. If I'm following you correctly,
 >that is your point and Greer's in including the SDI, ABM missle
 >reserach into the UFO question. Am I following you and Greer's
 >thoughts correctly? If not, I'm not surprised.

 >But, do you see how 'iffy' and clouded the basic issues become
 >when this round-about method is used within the general context
 >of educating the American public that UFOs even exist in the
 >first place? Abductees then become the only _remaining_ group of
 >people (apart from the military 'in-crowd') who can possibly
 >understand the seriousness of the correlation your 2
 >organizations are attempting to make. And, abductees and the
 >military 'in-crowd' _are_not_ the groups that need to be
 >educated here.

 >My point here is this: your organization and Dr. Greer's are
 >'barking up the wrong tree' and have successfully made a mess of
 >the whole UFO phenonenon, not only by failing to define the
 >basic issues, but also by failing to use consistent,
 >non-contradictory methods to do so, and by addressing the
 >_wrong_ groups of people to educate.

 >I think John Velez is correct. We need to start over. The X-PPAC
 >and Greer's Disclosure Project is a wash-out. And, though I'd
 >like to participate _in some form_ to gain a "broad-based
 >coalition," to educate the public, I'd probably be considered
 >one of the 'crazies' or 'whackos' based on my experiences with
 >the ETs.

 >So, although I may be able to help analyze the process fairly
 >well, I don't think it would be a positive, productive idea to
 >include me in on a panel of "experiencers." As John Velez once
 >told me, "Sue, you 'over-identify' with the ETs." He's probably
 >correct. He usually is. I still don't call _all_ of them
 >"friends", because I think there's something pathologically
 >wrong with _anyone_ who continues to physically and knowingly
 >hurt children. And, I don't care if you think that is based on
 >some archaic sociological, cultural rationalization or not.
 >Wherever they're from, or whatever reasons they may have for
 >doing so, I consider some (not all) of their behaviors wrong.
 >Period.

 >The ETs seem to be many and varied in their own personalities
 >and cultures. But, they perform abductions in 'lock-step' (i.e.,
 >their methods and procedures for abductions are well-defined and
 >systematically documented over time). This may be a good jumping
 >off place for attacking the reality of abductions, _after_ the
 >general public is made wholly aware of the existence of UFOs.

 >And, I think children's civil rights under 18 would be duly
 >protected by law (I realize there is no 'Bill of Rights' for
 >children, per se, but wouldn't (or couldn't) such children be
 >protected from identification? Am I correct in my thinking,
 >Richard? Problem is, I doubt there are many parents of abducteed
 >children who would allow their children to give testimony, even
 >after the 'giggle-factor' and evidence of the existence of UFOs
 >is commonly dispelled or known, as the case may be. I think that
 >until there are known methods to deter such abductions, the
 >abductions will continue, and such testimony may only serve to
 >increase the "fear factor" in the general public (which is
 >another reason for our government to keep the whole issue
 >silent). And, SDI and ABM missiles shooting down the ET craft to
 >avoid such abductions does seems a bit over-reactive, given our
 >present ignorance on the total phenonmenon.

 >Furthermore, IF we are in collusion for scientific and/or
 >technological knowledge with the ETs, and their negative
 >behaviors are seen as inherently "wrong" by the general public,
 >but some faction of our government condones those behaviors in
 >order to gain some nebulous superiority over our fellow human
 >beings (and/or the ETs), then we and our behaviors become
 >morally and ethically _wrong_ as well. _If_ we condone ET
 >abduction behavior, then we aren't any better than the ETs, are
 >we? That's another hard pill to swallow. They may be
 >technologically superior, but I have _never_ felt them to be
 >emotionally mature beings.

 >So, maybe we should concentrate on the basics first. First,
 >let's make blankity-blank sure we present solid evidence to the
 >general public that UFOs exist. Such evidence should be
 >presented by ufologist researchers ('believers' and 'skeptics'
 >working together), not some military-based panel of 'experts',
 >whose agenda only serves to muddy the waters, or 'crazies' and
 >'whackos', whose bizarre, anectodal experiences, only serve to
 >ignite an already not-well-understood phenomena.

 >Afterall, we can't expect any government to allow hearings for
 >disclosure, if they are in the middle of the whole mess
 >themselves (as both X-PPAC and Greer's Disclosure Project
 >insist), and/or in collusion with the ETs. Furthermore, it is
 >ridiculous to consider that any government would voluntarily
 >permit individuals to divulge information learned or obtained
 >while working on such "black" projects with the ETs. We already
 >have laws on the books forbidding such behavior. Congress is
 >only trying to strengthen thd law already in effect.

 >Steve, stop beating a dead horse. Henceforth, I promise to do
 >like-wise.


Some very thoughtful and heartfelt comments here that accord
very well with my overall perceptions of what is going on.

We have the potential right here on this List for some great
'seminars' involving Sue, John V., and other knowledgable
people, and with honest skeptics (not rabid debunkers) asking
questions about reported abduction experiences.

But we also need to underpin that with hardcore facts about why
UFOs are a serious issue in the first place that help to make
abduction reports credible.

In an ideal world, both should proceed side by side.

  - Dick









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   Oct > Oct 9

                         Re: Sheehan Saga - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 18:09:55 +0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 09:10:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Sheehan Saga - Lehmberg


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 7 Oct 2001 20:04:38 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Sheehan Saga

 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001
 >>Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 20:02:22 -0400

 >Jan

 >Please list the problems you find between my Sheehan article (I
 >assume you mean the first draft as posted in late June) and the
 >Sheehan transcript that I also posted on UpDates.

 >Somehow you seem to be putting out the spin that I am somehow
 >Sheehan's spokesman in all this. Nothing could be further from
 >the truth. If I come to the conclusion that Sheehan made up the
 >story I will be the first to post it.

 >I used radio transcripts and lectures given by Sheehan for the
 >first article that I put out. I cc'd a copy to Sheehan for any
 >corrections, and received no reply. I received no reply to any
 >further posted discussions I had with you or Dick Hall which
 >were cc'd to Sheehan.

 >It was I who provided questions to Errol that were used in the
 >interview which lead to the transcript. (I also provided a set
 >of questions to a second person in contact with Sheehan to
 >resolve questions) Unfortunately Errol did not get to some of
 >the critical questions. I interviewed Sheehan for two short
 >interviews by phone to question things which I saw as problems,
 >and was content with his answers.
 >
 >I learned shortly after the UpDate discussions took place that
 >Sheehan was somewhat upset with the letter I sent to Marcia
 >Smith, and I am therefore now not in any position to resolve any
 >problems that might exist in his story. (I did however see him
 >draw the symbols for someone at the Bay Expo after his
 >workshop.)

 >As you may know Sheehan has taken a position that he does not
 >wish to answer questions on this case as in his opinion it would
 >only lead to more infighting. That is his right, and he must pay
 >whatever price associated with that decision.

 >My suggestion to you, is that if you have some problem with his
 >version of events in 1977, you take on your role as an
 >investigator and phone him yourself. I will provide you his
 >phone number. I know he offered to meet with Dick Hall to
 >resolve any problems Dick had with the story, and as far as I
 >know Dick never took up Sheehan's offer.

 >I will resolve whatever I can, but as I have said before I am
 >not able to resolve the "what-ifs" and the "I think it would
 >have been done different" opinions that were expressed in the
 >discussions. I am not a magician.


No worries, mate - the lot doing the criticism just feels their
backfield being encroached upon... of course they've just been
marking time behind the scrimmage line since 1955, so what the
hell did they expect?

Sheehan's proactive stance has bourne much fruit in the past...
his track record is certainly better... he's had _results_ ...
that's the _real_ problem, IME.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com









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   Oct > Oct 9

                          Secrecy News -- 10/08/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 14:59:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 09:23:42 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/08/01



SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
October 8, 2001


**      HOUSE ADOPTS 2002 INTELLIGENCE AUTHORIZATION
**      SECRECY OFFICE SEEKS NEW DIRECTOR
**      MORE RESOURCES ON TERRORISM


HOUSE ADOPTS 2002 INTELLIGENCE AUTHORIZATION

The House of Representatives adopted its version of the
Intelligence Authorization Act for FY 2002 on October 5.

"The bill provides several billion dollars more than
appropriated last year and several hundred million dollars more
than requested by the President for fiscal year 2002," according
to Rep. Nancy Pelosi, the ranking minority member of the House
Intelligence Committee.

The new proposed budget allocation was also characterized as a
nine percent increase over the past year and a two percent
increase over the President's request.

This implies an intelligence budget total in excess of $30
billion.  For no valid reason, the precise total has been
classified since it was last disclosed in 1998, when it reached
$26.7 billion.

The text of the October 5 House floor debate on intelligence
funding may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2001_cr/h100501.html


SECRECY OFFICE SEEKS NEW DIRECTOR

The Information Security Oversight Office (ISOO), which is the
government body responsible for overseeing national security
classification and declassification policy, is looking for a new
Director to replace its current leader, the distinguished Steven
Garfinkel, who is retiring at the end of the year.

ISOO reviews secrecy programs in over 60 executive branch
agencies and develops new government-wide secrecy policies,
among its various other responsibilities.  ISOO is
administratively part of the National Archives, but takes policy
direction from the National Security Council.


Steven Garfinkel was appointed ISOO Director in May 1980.
Through countless conflicts and controversies over the past two
decades, he has emerged with a finely honed sense of what
matters in security policy, and what does and doesn't work.  It
is hard to imagine that there is anyone with a more thorough
understanding of the inner workings of the government secrecy
system.

Mr. Garfinkel must also be the most accessible and responsive
agency head in the U.S. government.  He is always willing to
take a moment to explain why you are wrong.

He shepherded the classification system through its significant,
though not fully realized, post-Cold War changes.  With
rumblings of ill-considered changes to secrecy policy beginning
to be heard, Mr. Garfinkel with his long view and rich
experience will probably be missed sooner rather than later.

The ISOO Director "must possess the ability to cope with complex
problems and conflicting points of view, and to recognize
problem areas, the resolution of which will require innovative
thought and action," according to a Position Description
prepared by ISOO.

On the other hand, "The work is largely sedentary. Physical
demands are minimal."  See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/isoo/director.html

The official ISOO Director vacancy announcement from the Office
of Personnel Management, including application information, may
be found here:

http://www.usajobs.opm.gov/wfjic/jobs/BZ0097.htm


MORE RESOURCES ON TERRORISM

The Senate Foreign Relations Committee has issued a new
compilation of previously published resources on terrorism and
related issues under the title "Strategies for Homeland Defense"
which may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2001_rpt/sprt107-43.html

A new White House fact sheet describing the functions of the new
Office of Homeland Security is available here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2001/10/wh100801.html

Last week the British government published a 21 page report
articulating why Usama bin Laden and the al-Qa'ida network are
to be held responsible for the September 11 terrorist attacks.

Why hasn't the U.S. government published a comparable document?

"If you were to see such a document produced by the American
government," explained White House press spokesman Ari Fleischer
on October 5, "you would quickly say, How do you know this?  And
the only [way to] answer those questions [is] to get into
sources and methods. And that's just something that we are not
going to do."

Fortunately, the British government's views on the subject were
less tortured.  Its October 4 report on "Responsibilities for
the Terrorist Atrocities in the United States" is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2001/10/ukreport.html

The State Department's latest list of 28 foreign terrorist
organizations was published on October 5.  See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2001/10/fr100501.html

The CIA has added an innocuous new "War on Terrorism" section to
its web site.

Unlike most of the Agency's online material, which is written in
careful, uninflected prose that reads as if it were the product
of artificial intelligence, the new Terrorism pages shift
erratically between alternate spellings of "bin Laden" and "bin
Ladin," perhaps suggesting some new disarray at the CIA.  See:

http://www.odci.gov/terrorism/index.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
<majordomo@lists.fas.org> with this command in the body of the
message:

    subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:
    http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691









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                               Nexus Magazine?

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 20:12:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 09:31:55 -0400
Subject: Nexus Magazine?


I would like to get input on what the members of this List think
about Nexus Magazine? Credible or not as a source of reliable
UFO/paranormal information?

The URL for the magazine is:

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/


Thanks

Bobbie

==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========











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                             Who Represents Us?

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 21:26:32 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 10:01:13 -0400
Subject: Who Represents Us?


Wha? Who or whom should it be, who represents the rest of us
when it comes to the UFO conundrum and why? Good question. Is
there one person, just one lousy person, who represents the best
of the best, the man, woman or child with the squeaky clean
background, the person with the leastest of the worstest and the
bestest of the greatest?

Who is most qualified? Who? Greer? Hall? Mo, Larry or Curly?
Which among us has no ax to grind, no ulterior motive, which by
the way also includes an experiencer, whose acte is the
sharpest; who has nothing in his or her background with which to
bend, spindle or mutilate what he or she represents merely by
virtue of his or her lack of virtue?

Very few would be way too large a number.

The best among us, in this man's opinion, is not among us. No.
The best among us ain't here on UpDates. And it's got nothing to
do with knowledge, state of mind, virtue or lack of it. Nothing
at all to do with believability, honesty or anything else. Has
to do with being part of the problem. And anyone on this forum
to a man, woman and beast of burden, is part of the problem by
virtue of that person's interest or involvement in the conundrum
itself.

So where's the beef? It's got Mad Cow disease. No one of any ilk
can help us. We are helpless. The time is not yet for this
problem, this conundrum, to be unraveled into an answer. This
government is not ready to communicate that which it is
concealing. Allow me to communicate to you that which I believe
to be the philosophy which best represents the state of mind of
governance in general, on this subject of UFOs and the
abduction phenomena.

 From the Jeff Rense site:

"Henry Kissinger in an address to the super secret Bilderberg
Organization meeting at Evian, France, May 21, 1992 said the
following as transcribed from a tape recording made by one of
the Swiss delegates:"

'Today American's would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los
Angeles to restore order; tomorrow they will be grateful. This
is especially true if they were told there was an outside threat
from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that threatened our
very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will
plead with world leaders to deliver them from this evil. The one
thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this
scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for
the guarantee of their well being granted to them by their world
government.'

___

Aside from the mosaic of NWO-ism in Kissinger's speech, note the
comments about the unknown. That he believes this to be
substantial enough for Americans to relinquish that which is the
very foundation of liberty and freedom. _That_ much fear.

They don't trust us folks. They (whomever "they" are) do not
understand how their citizens could or would be able to cope
with such a paradigm. They believe we cannot handle it. That
they are dead wrong means nothing. They've got the Motts.
And we don't got the juice.

Just a pair of personal dimes from the ol' Morty.

Ol' Morty

Jim









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                Rendlesham: Landing Deposited 10x Background

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 04:38:45 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 10:06:37 -0400
Subject: Rendlesham: Landing Deposited 10x Background


The following - and preceding evidence highlighted at source -
may be of interest:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UFORL/message/233

See also :

http://www.forteantimes.com/mag_info/this_issue.shtml

'RENDLESHAM REVEALED'

JAMES EASTON on what the government files really tell us about
'Britain's Roswell'.

If you might take issue with the latter, you seriously must,
factually, address reality of the former...


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk

The Rendlesham web site:

www.rendlesham.com









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              EW: SETI Project Sets Number-Crunching Milestone

From: Kurt Jonach <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 21:41:57 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 10:09:13 -0400
Subject: EW: SETI Project Sets Number-Crunching Milestone


------------------------------------------------------------

The Electric Warrior : News October 8, 2001
http://www.electricwarrior.com/news/ewNews0032.htm

------------------------------------------------------------
� SETI PROJECT SETS NUMBER-CRUNCHING MILESTONE
technology news
by The Electric Warrior

*** The data processing power managed by SETI@home is so
successful that the project plans to increase its data gathering
capacity  ***

The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI) studies
radio waves coming from space, in hope of finding a signal that
unambiguously proves that intelligent life exists somewhere,
anywhere, beyond Earth.

The earliest SETI projects never looked very deeply at the
microwave data gathered from radio telescopes because they were
limited by the amount of computer power available for data
analysis.

The UC Berkeley SETI team came up with the idea of harnessing
millions of computers on the Internet, in a peer-to-peer
distributed computing network that rivaled the data processing
power of a supercomputer.

The application software, which runs as a simple screen-saver on
multiple PC platforms, is so popular that the SETI@home recently
told Wired News that the project was in danger of running out of
input data:

"There are now 3 million Seti@home users, and thousands of new
people sign up to crunch data each day -- making the entire
Seti@home network more powerful than the biggest of
supercomputers."

The coordinated home computing experiment is so successful that
the SETI@home Web page can report a new computing milestone in
ZettaFLOPs: "We recently reached the ZettaFLOP (1021
floating-point operations) mark - a world record!"

Now that the SETI@home projects enjoys so much bandwidth, the
project plans to deploy a super-fast digital data recorder,
donated by Hewlett-Packard.

ET DATA FILTER

The SETI@home Website has a series of newsletters that explain
scientific checks-and-balances to home users competing to make
first contact. The data mining process is only one step in the
project's ongoing search for ETI.

The UC Berkeley SETI team says that a failure in the micro-
processor floating-point unit might cause your computer to
generate incorrect results, without necessarily crashing your
system.

Not surprisingly, the SETI@home project also has to deal with
computer hackers who try to skew the process. In this case, what
the hacked results produce are no detected signals at all. If
somebody sends back plenty of results, but never finds anything,
they get suspicious.

Lastly, there is a third type of result which is simply a
statistical computer failure. "Sometimes, very rarely, a
computer will get the wrong answer to a calculation for no
apparent reason."

The SETI@home project has enough volunteers to allow any piece
of data to be processed more than once, and can compare
potential ETI signals from different computers, to each other.

Signals due to radio frequency interference (RFI), as well as
"persistent" signals with the same location and frequency, must
be removed from consideration, because the origin of these
signals are known to be from Earth.

The SETI@home team expects most, if not all, detected radio
signals to originate from Earth based transmitters.

------------------------------------------------------------
RELATED RESOURCES

Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence at Home
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/
(SETI@home) - SETI@home is a scientific experiment that uses
Internet-connected computers in the Search for Extraterrestrial
Intelligence (SETI). You can participate by running a free program
that downloads and analyzes radio telescope data.

06-Oct-01 Seti@home Expands Its Back Yard
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,47365,00.html
(Wired News) - The project will now look at up to 20 times more
data, a scientist at Seti@home said, partly because it has so
many users that it is in danger of running out of radio data to
send them.

------------------------------------------------------------
THE ELECTRIC WARRIOR
October 8, 2001
Silicon Valley, CA
http://www.electricwarrior.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Web developers, the URL address for this content is:
http://www.electricwarrior.com/news/ewNews0032.htm

Permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this
article or any portion thereof, provided The Electric
Warrior is cited as the source.

Images are created exclusively for the Electric Warrior
Website. They can be downloaded and cached for individual
use, but may not be reproduced or used in any other context
without permission.

eWarrior@electricwarrior.com











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                         Re: Sheehan Saga - Cammack

From: Diana Cammack <cammack@eomw.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 07:07:12 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 10:10:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Sheehan Saga - Cammack


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 7 Oct 2001 20:04:38 -0700
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Sheehan Saga

 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: X-PPAC Update - October 2, 2001
 >>Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 20:02:22 -0400

<snip>

 >I learned shortly after the UpDate discussions took place that
 >Sheehan was somewhat upset with the letter I sent to Marcia
 >Smith, and I am therefore now not in any position to resolve any
 >problems that might exist in his story.


Did she ever answer you?

Diana
(Malawi)









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                Re: Mississppi UFO News Video Report? - Lewis

From: SMiles Lewis <smiles@elfis.net>
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 00:44:45 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 10:13:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Mississppi UFO News Video Report? - Lewis


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Missssiippi UFO News Video Report?
 >Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 18:21:16 +0000

 >>Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 09:45:05 +0000
 >>Subject: Missssiippi UFO News Video Report?
 >>From: SMiles Lewis
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto

 >>Hi UpDates eListers,

 >>Below is a link to a recent local news piece on UFOs.
 >>I'm curious if listers find it average, below/above?

 >The heading reminds me of the old joke. The teacher asks the
 >student to spell Mississippi, but when the student hesitates the
 >teacher asks what's wrong. Student: "I know how to spell
 >Mississippi, I just don't know when to stop!"

 >The news story is fairly typical for a retrospective report.


Hi Dick,

Whoops, I can't believe I forwarded that without catching the
glaring typo...

Thanks for commenting on the "retro report".

SMiles









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                         Re: Nexus Magazine? - Dyton

From: Jonathan Dyton <jon@wibble.powernet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:45:40 GMT
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 10:15:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Nexus Magazine? - Dyton


 >I would like to get input on what the members of
 >this List think about Nexus Magazine

"Dodgy" is the word I'd use:

http://www.google.com/search?q=david+icke+nexus&btnG=Google+Search

Especially where they've incurred the wrath of Searchlight.


Jon









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                     Mothman Movie Release Now 02-22-02

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 10:50:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 10:50:17 -0400
Subject: Mothman Movie Release Now 02-22-02

http://filmforce.ign.com/articles/36036p1.html

[Sony Pictures release date now set for February 22nd, 2002 --ebk]


The Stax Report: Script Review of The Mothman Prophecies

Stax looks at the screenplay based on the 1975 cult classic book
by aclaimed ufologist John A. Keel, set to star Richard Gere and
Laura Linney, and be directed by Mark Pellington... by Stax

11-21-00

Stax here with my reaction to the screenplay for The Mothman
Prophecies! This 120-page "first rewrite" by Richard Hatem
(Under Siege 2: Dark Territory) is dated August 4th, 1998. Becky
Johnson is currently rewriting the script, which is based on the
1975 cult classic book by acclaimed ufologist John A. Keel.
Primal Fear co-stars Richard Gere and Laura Linney will reunite
for this film with Mark Pellington (Arlington Road) set to
direct. Lakeshore Entertainment is producing the film with
Sony's Screen Gems serving as its distributor. Production begins
this January with a release date set for
fall 2001.

The Mothman Prophecies is a cerebral and creepy tale of the
paranormal that, like the book it's based on, claims to be based
on actual events that allegedly transpired in Point Pleasant,
West Virginia between November 1966 and December 1967. Hatem's
script has updated and condensed the time frame of the original
occurrences; the story now happens over the course of a few
weeks during the present. Hatem's also changed the names of the
principle characters, some of whom are based on actual people.

The protagonist is Washington Post political reporter John Klein
(Gere), an up-and-coming journalist who interacts with fat cats
on Capitol Hill and is being eyed for a job at CNN. He has a
beautiful wife named Mary and life seems to be going his way.
What follows shouldn't be considered a spoiler since the
industry trades already let this cat out of the bag. A
Christmas-time car accident befalls the Kleins, which leads to
an X-ray of Mary's skull that reveals a heretofore-undiagnosed
brain tumor. It's terminal.

Mary's hospitalized and begins immediate cancer treatments. One
day while she is resting, John discovers a bizarre drawing of a
bug-like man that Mary had inexplicably sketched. The grotesque
image is burned into John's memory. Mary passes away shortly
thereafter. John is devastated by her loss and his promising
career flounders.

One year later. Still lonely and pained by Mary's death, John
has forsaken dating and thrown himself into his work. While
driving all night to Alexandria in order to interview the
governor, John's car breaks down during a storm. He approaches a
rural home for assistance and is dismayed when its inhabitant,
Gordon Smallwood, pulls a gun on him and calls the police.

Gordon explains to John and Sgt. Connie Parker (Linney) that
John has come to his door the past three nights at exactly the
same time asking for help. Naturally, John declines the
accusation but this won't be his first brush here with
weirdness. It turns out that John's not where he should be. He's
actually in Point Pleasant, West Virginia, having somehow
traveled four hundred miles out of his way in less time than was
possible.

Curiosity gets the better of John and he soon learns of all the
other odd goings-on that have been happening lately in Point
Pleasant. It seems a number of locals, including many "normal"
and well regarded folks, have seen strange lights over the Ohio
River while others have had visions of a strange bug or
bird-like man. A drawing of this creature rocks John when he
realizes this is the exact same image Mary drew before she died.
As they dig deeper into the meaning behind all these bizarre
events, John and Connie develop romantic feelings for one
another.

Are these strange occurrences tied to UFOs? Or are they instead
indications of intelligent life existing here on earth but
within another dimension? One thing is certain. This "Mothman"
people keep seeing has become a harbinger of doom. The story
barrels toward a frightening conclusion as a prediction of a
disaster in Point Pleasant comes true. And just how and why is
John's late wife tied to all this? John Klein will find these
shocking answers by story's end.

The Mothman Prophecies was not nearly as hokey or contrived as
I'd feared it might be. (Although the title's still ludicrous.)
I was genuinely enthralled by John Klein's quest, and I bought
into the story's premise. This was because Hatem created
characters I could care about. These protagonists anchored an
otherwise fantastical story firmly in (emotional) reality. Since
I cared about what these events meant to the characters, I then
cared about what would happen next in the story. That's what
helped suspend my disbelief.

John and Connie were well-realized characters who formed a
believable and even poignant romance. This is also one of the
few scripts I've read recently where a child of one of the main
characters didn't hinder the story. All too often writers create
"movie kids," little smart-alecks who cause either a lot of
"cute" moments or over-the-top mischief. Connie's young son
Kevin, however, is just a regular kid who likes his mother's
newfound friend; he does nothing to spoil things. Also, while
this draft may take place in a small town, there aren't,
thankfully, any stereotypical oddball locals.

This script also worked because it was more about what was left
unseen rather than what was seen. There were no monster attacks,
no people running around yelling "Go! Move!" None of that loud
nonsense that ruins so many genre films today. Hatem's draft
recalled older works like The Twilight Zone, The Night Stalker,
and Close Encounters of the Third Kind. It was more cerebral
than visceral, more about human beings than entities from
beyond.

This draft's biggest weakness was that there were as many
questions were raised by all the supernatural "clues" provided
as there were answers. In hindsight, some of these clues didn't
really seem to matter or to even make much sense. One character
saw vague images of naked people walking the streets on his
otherwise static-filled TV screen. What the hell was that all
about anyway?! Just what did it have to do with "The Mothman"?
I'm still unsure.

My fear is that The Mothman Prophecies could be script-doctored
into a more generic, special effects-heavy movie. That it'll
become preoccupied with all the fantastic goings-on rather than
staying focused on people. Or that, even if the final script
does retain most of Hatem's work, that the material will be
interpreted poorly by its director. Of course, these are all
unfounded (and slightly cynical) suspicions on my part but I've
seen enough good genre scripts transformed into mediocre
"Hollywood blockbusters" lately to remain skeptical. I sincerely
hope to be proven wrong here.

The Mothman Prophecies was an intriguing tale about a man who
finds the answers to all the Big Questions he's been asking
about life. For John Klein, it becomes a lesson in "be careful
what you wish for" as he's drawn into an increasingly harrowing
examination of the paranormal. Despite some plot holes and a
potentially high "cheese factor", The Mothman Prophecies
remained involving because it was about people and not about
fantastic events where people are secondary.

STAX







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              Re: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 10:24:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 10:53:40 -0400
Subject: Re: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It - Sandow


 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: To X-PPAC & Others Who Don't Get It
 >Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:48:31 -0400

 >I haven't had first-hand contact with Alfred Webre's political
 >views. But I did note this, in his reply to Dick Hall:

 >>True, I was an elected Clinton-Gore delegate at the 1996 Texas
 >>Democratic convention, and perhaps that worries your obviously
 >>conservative sensitivities.

 >So let me state that I'm a registered Democrat, before I go any
 >further, even if I'm not going to comment on politics.

I just reread this, and I don't think my tone of voice came
across. I meant this humorously, as a way of parodying what
Webre said. The idea of a political test for comments here on
UpDates is offensive.

Besides, even if I don't know what Dick Hall's politics are, I
know he knows what extremism is. There really are Republicans
who think Clinton was extreme, but they're absurd, and I'd have
lots of trouble believing Dick was one of them.


Greg Sandow










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                    Woman 'Travels' 600KMs. In 90 Minutes

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 11:04:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 11:04:39 -0400
Subject: Woman 'Travels' 600KMs. In 90 Minutes

http://www.abc.net.au/news/state/qld/metqld-9oct2001-6.htm

Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:40 AEST

Abduction Claim Gives Ufologists Food For Thought

Reports of an alien abduction in central Queensland are expected
to keep the room buzzing at a national UFO conference in
Brisbane this weekend.

Police are investigating claims that a Maryborough district
woman was abducted from a caravan and transported 600 kilometres
to the north Queensland sugar city of Mackay.

Witnesses have told police they saw the woman near Maryborough
on Thursday night. She turned up in a dazed and muddy state 90
minutes later at Mackay Base Hospital.

UFO investigator Dr Martin Gottschall is not surprised at the
woman's claim.

"These sort of things seem to be happening all around the
globe," he said.

"What these people will appreciate the most is for other people
to suspend judgement for a while; don't call them idiots or
crazy or accuse them of trying to create some sort of a hoax. By
and large this is rarely the case," Mr Gottschall said.











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                             Re: Nexus Magazine?

From: Minna Hyvnen <minna.hyvonen@kolumbus.fi>
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:18:44 +0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 14:49:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Nexus Magazine?


 >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 20:12:58 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Nexus Magazine?

 >I would like to get input on what the members of this List think
 >about Nexus Magazine? Credible or not as a source of reliable
 >UFO/paranormal information?

 >The URL for the magazine is:

 >http://www.nexusmagazine.com/


Here's one vote for 'not credible'.

Minna H
Finland








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   Oct > Oct 9

                       Re: Nexus Magazine? - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 16:57:01 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 14:52:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Nexus Magazine? - McGonagle


 >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 20:12:58 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Nexus Magazine?

 >I would like to get input on what the members of this List think
 >about Nexus Magazine? Credible or not as a source of reliable
 >UFO/paranormal information?

I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them - they got
quite nasty when I suggested (contrary to their assertions) that
the Transistor is of completely terrestrial origin, a natural
progression from the semiconductor diode.

In the end, they threatened me with legal action (after calling
me all sorts of names, and accusing me of being racist!).


Regards,

Joe









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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 9

                   Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Vetterick

From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 12:16:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 14:54:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Vetterick


 >Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:58:51 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse

 >>Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 07:51:00 -0700 (PDT)
 >>From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Same Song, Second Verse
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Hello Mr. Mortellaro, hello All,

<snip>

 >Regarding this List and its members:

 >That _was_ a good thread you quoted. Did you participate in it?
 >It included some really _good people_ that contrary to your
 >misinterpretations, have made some _genuine_ contributions to
 >ufology. More than just 'rap'.

<snip>

 >Speaking _strictly_ for myself.

 >I came to this List at EBK's invitation. He was being a
 >'Guardian Angel" by providing myself and Budd Hopkins an outlet
 >to the public and to the UFO community when we needed it most.
 >Budd had invited me to participate in a NOVA segment (WGBH/PBS)
 >to act as a representative of one of his many cases. NOVA was
 >screwing us over and Errol was the only one who gave us an
 >opportunity to get our side of the story out to the public. In
 >gratitude for that and many, many other things, I have always
 >remained an active and contributing member of the UpDates
 >family. I love some of these people.

 >As for you:

 >It was through me, (AIC) that you yourself were introduced to
 >this List. Something I'd like to publicly cop to, and apologize
 >for. You, more than any other, use an almost inordinate amount
 >of bandwidth criticizing this List and those who participate in
 >it. You rarely have anything good to say about it. I had held
 >out some hope that you would prove to be an asset to those of us
 >who have 'come out' in public with a mind to making a meaningful
 >contribution. I'm sorry. I completely disagree with your opinion
 >of this List and with those who contribute to it. If it's such a
 >waste of time and all talk, what is your purpose in being here?
 >Frankly I don't think you have a bloody clue as to what this
 >List is all about.

 >Most sincerely,

 >John Velez


Excellent comments John, you have hit the nail squarely on the
head.

This was also demonstrated by Ms. Keith's comment regarding the
Alien Autopsy CD review in her Sept. 28, 2001 post to UpDates.

 >Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy

 >"Had I known that this was gonna cause this big of stir,
 >you can bet I would have asked sooner! <G>Nothing
 >beats a good controversy. "

A private e-mail she made to myself and a couple others involved
in the CD review didn't deserve a civil reply.

To clear up that misguided thread and statements :

The CD's of the AA film and a Web site where reviews and
comments are being posted now, will be made available to
EVERYONE in a few weeks. We'll make a public announcement and
strongly encourage open debate and additional discussion.

Initial participation was by invitation only. Logistically, and
because some of the participants requested confidentiality and
e-mail privacy, the initial discussion is taking place
privately. However, all this is being recorded, and documented.
Save for those participants who want their info and comments
removed, everything else will be made available when concluded
in a few weeks.

Those original invitees who elected not to honor this
temporary confidentiality request have been removed
from the current private discussion.


Best Regards,

Dave Vetterick








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   Oct > Oct 9

                         Magonia Supplement No. 37.

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 20:58:53 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 17:12:19 -0400
Subject: Magonia Supplement No. 37.



MAGONIA Supplement

No. 37 5 October 2001


EDITORIAL

The outrageous and tragic events of 11 September are a stark
reminder that we are all threatened by real dangers, and real
and evil conspiracies. Contrast, if you will, these realities
with the imaginary dangers and imaginary conspiracies which
exercise the mainds of far too many ufologists: government
conspiracies to hide The Truth about the UFOs; the project
conducted by the Greys to produce human-alien hybrids; and other
fantasies. Is it too much to hope that many ufologists will now
abandon these silly notions and emerge into the real world, to
give what help they can to deal with real conspiracies?


A NEW TECHNIQUE FOR DETECTING LIFE ON OTHER PLANETS?

IN A RECENT article in the scientific journal Nature (1) the
authors discuss a model that predicts features of terrestrial
planets orbiting nearby stars, that should be discernible in the
light curve obtained by low-precision photometry.

"For extrasolar planets similar to Earth, we expect daily flux
variations of up to hundreds of per cent, depending sensitively
on ice and cloud cover as well as seasonal variations. This
suggests that the meteorological variability, composition of the
surface (for example, ocean versus land fraction) and rotation
period of an Earth-like planet could be derived from photometric
observations. Even signatures of Earth-like planet life could be
constrained or possibly, with further study, even uniquely
determined."

By making photometric measurements at different wavelengths it
might be possible to detect vegetation.

"On Earth vegetation has a dramatic sudden rise in albedo by
almost an order of magnitude at around 750 nm, known as the 'red
edge'. Vegetation has evolved this strong reflection as a
cooling mechanism to prevent overheating which would cause
chlorophyll to degrade."

Reference
1. Ford, E.B., Seager, S. and Turner, E.L. "Characterization of
extrasolar terrestrial planets from diurnal photometric
variability", Nature, Vol. 412, 30 August 2001, 885-887


LITERARY CRITICISM

Reviews by Peter Rogerson

Michael David Hall. UFOs: a Century of Sightings. Galde Press, 1999.
�32.50

This is the first history of ufology and UFO cases by a
professional historian since David Jacobs's The UFO Controversy
in America a quarter of a century back. As a historian, Hall
declines to supply "explanations" for the cases, and notes the
problems with the ETH, though readers will detect in his
selection of cases, and commentary, a general pro-UFO bias.
However, he has little time for Roswell, pointing out that if
something as exotic as a spacecraft had been discovered in 1947,
it would have been months before anyone realised what they were
dealing with. In Roswell they knew what was up at first sight.
Hall hints that perhaps some sort of really big military,
possibly nuclear, secret was involved. He also has a few kind
words to say about Phil Klass.

The strength of this book is the detailed study of the US
government policy, and his use of the private papers of Ed
Ruppelt, which gives some idea of the complexities involved. Of
particular interest is his naming of a new candidate for the
'father of the ETH', the aeronautical engineer Alfred Loedding,
who seems to have been the driving force behind the infamous
Estimate of the Situation. The trouble is that no one since
Ruppelt has seen the Estimate, and we cannot say what the
arguments used were, though other Air Force documents from this
period suggest that the idea being floated around was that the
Martians had seen the nuclear bomb explosions and were coming to
see what was going on. Hall has met with members of Loedding's
family, and his son claims to have remembered investigating
landing reports back in the 1940s. Is this a false memory? If
not this is very interesting indeed.

The case reports should be very useful, and there is much early
material for the ufologists to get their teeth into. One
low-level report from Circleville, Ohio now appears on the basis
of the report here to be a CEIII, and there are a lot of cases,
which if they occurred exactly as reported would be very
puzzling indeed. Looking at these stories reminds us of how easy
it was in the early 1950s to argue for the ETH. Hall points out
that Loedding and others who supported the ETH never had any
positive evidence in its favour; they argued from elimination.
There is evidence of an exotic technology, it isn't ours, it
isn't the Russians, it must be the ETs (which usually meant the
Martians).

Looking at these stories today, what strikes us is that they
don't so much represent what we in 2001 would think of as an
advanced technology or of the work of ETs, but a kind of
advanced 1940s and 1950s technology, a mixture of speculative
ideas about revolutionary aerospace designs and 1930s comic-book
ideas of 'spaceships'. This is the 'advanced technology' of the
world before satellites and computers, and remote imaging.

Though Hall notes the role of the Cold War from time to time, I
was surprised that as a historian he really paid very little
attention to the cultural climate. For example, it seems obvious
now how much war- time experience and imagery pervades these
stories. The flying saucers behave in many ways like
ultra-high-performance German or Japanese fighters, flying in
formation, engaging in dog fights, etc. Just how many of the
pilot UFO witnesses had been on active service in the war, and
how many had been trained either explicitly or implicitly to see
an enemy aircraft behind any ambiguous light in the sky and
react accordingly? We don't know the answer to that question.

Is it a coincidence that as the War receded into memory, UFO
reports become more tenuous, more exotic and "paranormal". Hall
notes how ufologists now have become diverted into the pursuit
of crashed- saucer rumours and wild abduction stories, because
there are no good classical UFO cases around. (It also might be
that while access to the Project Blue Book files is relatively
simple for anyone willing to fork out for the microfilms, access
to the records of civilian UFO groups is next to impossible.)

  One should be able to recommend this book as an excellent
  source of good-quality UFO reports, and when I first obtained
  it, that's what I intended to do, but reading through it gave
  me some serious doubts. For I have come to doubt the accuracy
  of the accounts given, because in a number of cases that I know
  well, the accounts here are inaccurate; indeed the report of
  the Hill case is one of the most inaccurate I have come across.
  Were the reports compiled from memory, reconstructed from
  hastily written notes or what? Also, though Hall does introduce
  more foreign reports than most American UFO writers, I came to
  the conclusion that his knowledge of the subject was not all
  that deep. Perhaps one can only evaluate it after being deeply
  involved for decades.

That caveat means that two of the most important cases in the
book, apparent EM-type cases from before the modern UFO wave,
need to be re-examined in the original sources. US readers
should try to get hold of a magazine called Sky Trails for June
1933 and check the story of Colin Murphy who is reported as
claiming that, in late September 1926, seventy miles from Salt
Lake City his DC4 biplane was 'buzzed' by a sort of wingless
cylinder, ninety feet long and eight to ten feet thick. Every
time the object came within 150 ft his engine misfired, forcing
him to make an emergency landing only to see the object shoot
away.

British researchers need to get access to History of the III
Fighter Squadron RAF, London Press, 1947, for the following
story from 5 July 1933, when at night a flight of four Hawker
Fury fighters encountered a "huge circular light" which dropped
down from above into the centre of their formation. Captain
Nigel Tomkins's engine cut out forcing him to crash land.
Another pilot, Bruce Thomas, came even closer, suffering not
just an engine failure but burns to his hands and face. Clearly
if the book can be traced and confirms that this account is
reliable, then all efforts should be made to track down flight
logs and other original documentation, check the local press for
the period, and even try to track down descendants of those
involved. [A preliminary check with the library at the RAF
Museum, and the British library, has failed to trace this book.
JR]

British resesarchers might also like to try to find something
more about a vague reference by Ruppelt to an incident on 16-17
January 1947, in which two fighters intercepted a violently
moving object over England.

Despite the errors, and the price, this is an important book,
and one that ufologists should add to their collection.

Illobrand von Ludwiger. Best UFO Cases Europe, National
Institute for Discovery Science, 1998. �18.50.

This illustrated A4 document presents a number of UFO cases both
old and new from Europe, but one cannot say that they are the
'best' cases; most are simply reports of lights in the night. It
is possible that some of these may be poorly understood
atmospheric phenomena, but my gut feeling is that most if not
all would resolve into very conventional IFOs if subjected to
detailed, critical investigation. Of course the Belgian
triangles and Trans-en-Provence get the obligatory look in.

There is a physical evidence case, a mysterious lump of metal
found after an alleged UFO sighting, in Sweden in 1956, first
actually investigated, it would appear, some 22 years after the
event, though this is difficult to work out. The results of
analysis showed that it was made from pulverised tungsten
carbide and cobalt, and had nothing special about its
manufacture. It comes as no surprise that ufologist von Ludwiger
takes the line that until the exact manufacturer and use of the
block can be found, it must be assumed to have come from a
flying saucer. In other words, assume everything is paranormal
until you can prove otherwise. There is one more interesting
case, a CEIII from Lake Constance in 1977, but even there I
suspect that the main UFO sighting would turn out to be an IFO,
and the occupant report a fantasy.

The report also features introductions from representatives of
the American UFO establishment, Messsrs Maccabee, Schuessler and
Haines, the last devoting the space to his own quarrel with the
Sturrock committee rather than discussing the work in hand.

Compared with UFO research in the English- and French-speaking
worlds, UFO research in Germany has a distinctly cultic
character, being largely staffed by disciples of the maverick
physicist Burkhart Heim, and von Ludwiger is no exception. It is
unclear whether Heim has any influence outside the ranks of
ufologists and paranormalists.

Von Ludwigers own explanation of the UFO phenomenon is that it
is time travelers, though why time travelers would want to draw
attention to themselves is anyones guess.

This work is yet another example of how ufologists are their own
worst enemies. The summaries do not give actual reports, merely
the ufologists' interpretations of what is happening; basic
details are missing; there is little of evidence of genuine
open-minded inquiry; there is the credulity and the resort to
out-of-date and fringe science, and frank science fiction
speculation. It is clear that ufologists as a class have no idea
at all as to what constitutes scientific evidence, or scientific
inquiry, or even basic public relations.


LETTERS


Having had time to digest Nigel Watson's disgraceful smear
published as part of your Magonia Supplement No.36 it is obvious
that you owe me the right to reply.

Watson has deliberately and rather callously misrepresented what
I said at the recent Weird Weekend in Exeter to the extent that
four people who were there, and who have read his comments,
cannot believe they were in the same room.

Watson wrote:

"The new US Star Wars project is being created to fight the
secret war against the aliens. That's the reason given by
controversial ufologist, Tim Matthews, at a recent and rare
public appearance." Not true. I did not say this and could not
have done, because I have no information on a Star Wars system
to "fight a secret war against aliens". (My understanding is
that lasers could not be properly focused in space, or certainly
not until recently.) What I did say in my talk was that the
General had told his wife that efforts to create a defensive
shield were being made and that he had devoted much time to
developing Star Wars type systems. In any case, he was working
on this the in the early 1980s when the Reagan administration
thought that Star Wars was viable. This is hardly a
"new...project".

"Matthews didn't give much credit to ufologists as they are
mainly fixated on the ET hypothesis. As for ufological sceptics,
armchair theorists and Fortean Times readers they are worse than
Martian swamp scum."

This is pure fantasy. It is true that the Fortean Times
editorial team has allowed Joe McNally to carry out a smear
campaign against me (The Hierophant column) and has promoted and
advertised libellous and defamatory material from Larry O'Hara's
At War With The Universe in their magazine. But this wasn't
mentioned in my talk.

"He thinks that ufology focuses too much on individuals rather
than on the evidence itself..."

Watson's own misleading report is an excellent example of his
and others' debunking tactics of investigating the
investigators.

"He never said much about it except that he had been to a remote
village where all the graves had been opened up. He said that on
his death he wanted to be buried 12 feet deep. Is this a case of
grave robbing aliens? Do they feast on our dead bodies? Is
someone's imagination working at warp speed?"

This is further evidence of Watson's inability to report simple
facts. A job with The Sun beckons. In fact, the information was
that a UFO had been tracked and that the location of the object
which had come down had been determined. What I actually said
was that the General's wife referred to the "aliens" in question
as being most like the fictional "Predator" character. I cannot
understand why, at a light- hearted Fortean event which most
people enjoyed attending, Watson should have such a problem with
my making such information known. Nobody, apart from Watson that
is, has an "overactive" imagination. He, like other skeptics,
has to belittle people and lie in order to supposedly "prove"
his point. This is very childish and tells us how little
credibility should be attached to his research, such as it is.

"Matthews, despite disliking ETH believers does accept the ET
hypothesis."

Really? Where have I said this? Which "ETH believers" is he
referring to? In fact, I get on with most people rather well and
have rebuilt bridges with several noted researchers including
Nick Redfern.

"He is equally contradictory about some poltergeist activity
plaguing his home at the moment. Since a man died in the house
years ago he thinks any psychic investigators would link it with
his spirit. He thinks they, like ufologists, are closed minded.
Of course he's so open minded he'll believe everything he tells
himself."

Where is the contradiction? I think Watson has a problem because
I cannot be conveniently pigeon-holed. Just because I think
there is a serious UFO/alien incident worthy of investigation -
which may indeed prove people like him wrong - and because we
have had some incidents of high strangeness in our house (and
the houses either side) Watson finds "contradiction".

A major problem, as I pointed out in Exeter, was the terminology
used to describe such events. "Poltergeist" (I did not say that
we were suffering from Poltergeist activity) and "Ghost" are
terms that conjure up ideas and imagery of "the other side", of
"spirits". I made it clear that the activity was focussed upon
my daughter Alexandra.

I made it clear that I didn't know what to make of it but my
view is that these and similar events are more than likely on
the edge of scientific understanding. Beyond that I have no idea
what is going at our house! I asked whether anybody in the
audience had experienced similar goings-on and several people
approached me privately at the end.

It would appear that Nigel Watson has a problem with this. I
cannot imagine why. All I will say is that had I been reporting
upon his talk I would have stuck to the facts and offered little
if any further comment.

I await his reply with interest,

Tim Matthews.


Its funny how people who think they have been, to quote Tim Matthews,
"deliberately and callously misrepresented" find it easy to smear their
detractors in a far more off-hand and libellous manner.

In this case Tim Matthews calls me a liar. Or, since he is so
pedantic with terminology and the reporting of "facts" he says I
"...belittle people and lie in order to.....blah, blah..."

Having made such an outrageous and shocking slur on my good
character he is unable to show what lies I am guilty of.

He quite rightly notes that I did not mention a few things (e.g.
the reference to "Predator" or that he didn t use the word
�poltergeist�) but that doesn�t make me a liar.

He did not refer to Joe McNally in his talk but he certainly
left a clear impression that he did not like Fortean Times or armchair
theorists, and that doesn�t make me a liar either.

Where are my damn lies? I can�t find any!

Instead of lies I just see areas of disagreement and
interpretation. It is he who is really the dispenser of smears,
callous misrepresentation and character assassination, and he
should jolly well apologise to me in the pages of this bulletin.
I know he won�t just as I know little green men will never land
a flying saucer on the White House lawn. Nigel Watson


In Magonia Supplement No. 36 Martin Kottmeyer discusses the 24
July 1948 UFO sighting by DC-3 pilots Chiles and Whitted.

He pointed out that Hynek felt the case was an undoubted meteor
in his report to ATIC of 30 April 1949, and that Menzel
concurred but argued it was part of either the Aquarid or
Perseid meteor streams, based mainly on the date. He pointed out
that UFO sceptics have generally agreed with this.

Kottmeyer decides that a meteor explanation may be wrong because
the radiant of the Delta Aquarids was off towards the south and
sounds wrong for an object that appears ahead and [toward the
East]. Although the Perseids radiant would be better, the 24
July date seems early.

Although there are many active, though mostly minor, showers
during mid-summer, not just the two mentioned, the key to
understanding the meteor hypothesis is that nearly all fireballs
brighter than Venus are believed to be associated with
asteroids, and are considered "sporadics", not part of meteor
showers, which seem to be related to comets and their orbits.

This was first suggested more than a hundred years ago. By the
mid-20th Century meteoritics was considered a scientific
backwater to many astronomers, who may not have been aware of
this relationship, Dr Menzel's opinion notwithstanding.

Few, if any, UFO commentators seem aware that the prevailing
view of meteor researchers is that most bright fireballs are not
part of showers. This of course does not include present-day
space debris re- entries, which are all "sporadics" of another
kind.

So, I don't think that the sporadic nature of this object can
rule out a meteor.

Robert R. Young, PO Box 371, Harrisburg PA 17104 USA
Youngbob2@aol.com

NOTES AND NEWS

from Nigel Watson


Murdering UFOs

If you watch TV you get an exaggerated view of the murderous
intentions of aliens. Obvious culprits like The X Files are full
of homicidal creatures but even mainstream drama series are
often tempted to dip their toes into sf-related storylines.

A few years back, Heartbeat, set in 1960s Yorkshire, had a
murder mystery that looked like it was inspired by the stories
of Jenny Randles. A man is found dead on the moors with burn
marks, and there are sightings of UFOs in the area. Had these
UFOs murdered him? Of course not, the man had died and fallen
onto a two-bar fire whilst carrying out an illicit affair. To
avoid a scandal his body was dumped on the moor and as for those
pesky UFOs, they were RAF aircraft switching off their engines
and gliding over the moors at night. Mystery solved.

The latest example literally cropped up in the "Electric
Vendetta" episode of the Midsomer Murders broadcast on ITV1 on 2
September 2001. A dead naked man is found in a crop circle with
burnt arms, a piece of hair shaved off and two puncture marks in
his back. It mirrors perfectly a �classic� UFO murder case
according to the local ufologist. The murder allows the
ufologist to pontificate about ETs and to whip-up interest in
his crop-circle research. Another victim is found in similar
circumstances, and someone else is electrocuted in his pick- up
truck. The Midsomer Murders is rapidly turning into the war of
the worlds!

Very surprisingly, and what I consider with great restraint, the
show never alluded to there being a serial (cereal) killer on
the loose. The prime suspect is the ufologist (shifty types
aren�t they) but he�s rather mundanely killed by being pushed
down some stairs.

Like every episode of Scooby Doo we know there is going to be a
rational explanation for the spooky activity. That�s where the
Midsomer Murders is different; it staggers and snakes its way
through the narrative like a gormless drunk. As a viewer you
sink into a sleepy apathy until you wake up to watch the end
credits rolling. As usual this episode was lovingly shot and had
an excellent supporting cast; the downside is that it has the
bland John Nettles as DCI Tom Barnaby who fumbles his way
through the investigation.

If you try unravelling this particular plot you find more holes
in it than a packet of Polos. From what I could tell, the first
victim was electrocuted trying to kill a bloke who has had a
long-standing argument over a woman since his college days. The
ufologist got the job of disposing of the body and decided to
dress it up as an ET attack. The other murders were for a
variety of different reasons or whatever. I doubt that anyone
cared or cares.

I had thought that crop circles had disappeared from the media
for good, but this summer I saw one reported on a breakfast TV
show and on Radio 5 they discussed a �square� crop circle
(square crop doesn�t sound right) that was supposed to contain a
scientific message from the ETs. Perhaps the Midsomer Murders in
its inept way will manage to kill off this remaining spark of
interest in the matter? Who am I kidding?

I Tawt I Saw A Bunnie Rarebit

A University of Washington study has shown that our memories of
past events are incredibly malleable and highly unreliable. At a
presentation of the findings at Glasgow University it was noted
that: "In some sense, life is a continual memory alteration
experiment where memories are continually shaped by new incoming
information."

To prove this hypothesis Jacquie Pickrell, a doctoral candidate
in psychology, and professor of psychology Elizabeth Loftus,
presented a group with an advert showing Bugs Bunny shaking
hands with visitors to Disney World. Later 30 per cent of the
viewers also remembered meeting Bugs Bunny when they had visited
Disney World when they were children. As anyone with any
knowledge of animation knows Bugs Bunny is not a Disney
character and has never appeared in a Disney theme park. From
her research Pickrell concluded: "You can truly implant a memory
for an entire event that never happened."

Loftus said she felt that this small study makes us question
such factors as: "When will people take a detail and attach it
to some other memory? How do we bind pieces of experience
together? When will you take a piece of experience that kind of
floats around in the mind and attach it to another experience?
Why and when does that happen?"

This work shows that people can be convinced (some would say
tricked) into believing they experienced something in childhood
or the past that did not really happen. For advertisers and
marketing companies this can be a very powerful tool. For
example, Stewart's, a root beer manufacturer, highlighted how
people can use new information to reshape their autobiographical
memories, when they put 'old fashioned' and 'original' labels on
their bottles. Adults then remembered drinking the product as
children, yet this drink was not bottled until the 1990s.

In terms of ufology the implications of this work are profound.
In the literature there are hundreds of accounts of people who
remember UFO sightings and alien encounters in childhood, but
never reported such experiences at the time. Also, the
literature is full of accounts of 'flying saucers' seen before
1947 but not reported until many years later.

------------------------------------------

Edited by John Harney

Posted by:
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk









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                               Getting A Grip

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:02:20 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 17:18:19 -0400
Subject: Getting A Grip


Let me see if I have this X'y Packie Thingy correct:

1. We have a real attorney who sometimes wears purple robes in
Sedona and spends time on top of the mountain attempting to
bring forth the mothership to benefit humanity and then stands
before courts of law pleading against conspiratorial government
shenanigans in order to enlighten the masses. Rumored to wear
blinking light beenies to make the advanced mothership easier to
locate the spot of contact.

2. A doctor leaves the emergency room and medicine to devote his
life to vectoring in alien space ships so that the world can be
enlightened of the 16 types of aliens and what they have in
store for humanity. To further his quest, he prescribes people
to go with him into the night on an intergalactic weeny roast in
order to teach them how to call down the alien brotherhood.

3. Two competing political pundits propose to coordinate all
organizations with turf rights in Ufology to band together to
force Congress to abandon all hope and learn the wisdom of the
space brothers and why they are necessary to alleviate the
troubles of man.

4. A DSM-IV case study that writes of crystal hypnotic
hobgoblins and chakramatic vertigoistic channeled insights into
the psychic malstrom of...well, whatever.

5. Among the proposals are to disclose all this, via people with
misleading and erroneous resumes, to the hallowed halls of the
U. S. Legislative Branch, etc.

6. Groupies who flock, like the Gooney Birds of Midway Island,
to the most recent edition of the pulp blockbusters with titles
such as: "I Was a Reptilian Sex-Change from Charcon," "My Six
Days Chained to an Alien Marital Device," etc.

7. This gang always has their hands in somebody else's pocket.

Now, on the other side of this X'y Packie Thingy, we have:

1. A small group of known academic/scientific types and many not
so well known, who believe that research, documentation, study,
peer review and scientific sampling, are the basis for
understanding and coming to hypothetical conclusions as to the
possibilities which may or may not explain, the phenomena known
as Ufology and keep their intellect to the grindstone, always
searching, debating and researching.

2. A group that writes documented, footnoted monographs, knowing
they don't have the answers, but continue to research and look
into the phenomena.

3. A group, usually called "elitist," that have spent their
lives and fortunes in the pursuit of knowledge and enlightenment
regarding the possibilities or probabilities of this phenomenon
and puts those really hard to read books containing words with
more than two syllables on the bookshelves to drive people
wacky.

4. These characters keep their hands in their own pockets.

Hummmmmmmm....which to choose, which to choose....?


Wendy Connors








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   Oct > Oct 10

                   Re: Magonia Supplement No. 37. - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 16:33:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 02:56:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 37. - Clark


 >Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 20:58:53 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Magonia Supplement No. 37.

 >MAGONIA Supplement

 >No. 37 5 October 2001


 >EDITORIAL

 >The outrageous and tragic events of 11 September are a stark
 >reminder that we are all threatened by real dangers, and real
 >and evil conspiracies. Contrast, if you will, these realities
 >with the imaginary dangers and imaginary conspiracies which
 >exercise the mainds of far too many ufologists: government
 >conspiracies to hide The Truth about the UFOs; the project
 >conducted by the Greys to produce human-alien hybrids; and other
 >fantasies. Is it too much to hope that many ufologists will now
 >abandon these silly notions and emerge into the real world, to
 >give what help they can to deal with real conspiracies?


What a load of... well, I'm too polite to complete the sentence,
but not too polite to express my shock and disgust. To use an
atrocity like the September 11 slaughter to score cheap points
against ufologists who presume to disagree with Magonia's
favored beliefs is, at best, to make oneself look cynical beyond
reason and, at worst, to raise questions concerning your sense
of moral proportion.

Though I don't think much of psychosocial ufology, I have always
thought well of you, John. I would have expected better. You're
making about as much sense as the California pro-gun group that
exploited the atrocity to promote its crusade against gun
control. For that, the group was roundly criticized, and I hope
other List members will provide the same service to your
amazingly ill-considered words.


Jerry Clark









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                         Re: Getting A Grip - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 16:41:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 02:59:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Getting A Grip - Clark


 >From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Getting A Grip
 >Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:02:20 -0600


 >Let me see if I have this X'y Packie Thingy correct:

 >1. We have a real attorney who sometimes wears purple robes in
 >Sedona and spends time on top of the mountain attempting to
 >bring forth the mothership to benefit humanity and then stands
 >before courts of law pleading against conspiratorial government
 >shenanigans in order to enlighten the masses. Rumored to wear
 >blinking light beenies to make the advanced mothership easier to
 >locate the spot of contact....

<snip>

 >7. This gang always has their hands in somebody else's pocket.

 >Now, on the other side of this X'y Packie Thingy, we have:

 >1. A small group of known academic/scientific types and many not
 >so well known, who believe that research, documentation, study,
 >peer review and scientific sampling, are the basis for
 >understanding and coming to hypothetical conclusions as to the
 >possibilities which may or may not explain, the phenomena known
 >as Ufology and keep their intellect to the grindstone, always
 >searching, debating and researching....

<snip>

 >4. These characters keep their hands in their own pockets.

 >Hummmmmmmm....which to choose, which to choose....?

Wendy,

Wonderfully, insightfully, pointedly, hilariously said. Thanks
for reminding all good Listfolk that not everybody out there is
a mere half step ahead of the butterfly net, or residing in the
Gonzo Dimension.

Jerry Clark










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              Re: Woman 'Travels' 600KMs. In 90 Minutes - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:27:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 03:10:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Woman 'Travels' 600KMs. In 90 Minutes - Velez


 >Source: ABC News OnLine [The Australian Broadcasting Corporation]

 >http://www.abc.net.au/news/state/qld/metqld-9oct2001-6.htm

 >Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:40 AEST

 >Abduction Claim Gives Ufologists Food For Thought

 >Reports of an alien abduction in central Queensland are expected
 >to keep the room buzzing at a national UFO conference in
 >Brisbane this weekend.

 >Police are investigating claims that a Maryborough district
 >woman was abducted from a caravan and transported 600 kilometres
 >to the north Queensland sugar city of Mackay.

 >Witnesses have told police they saw the woman near Maryborough
 >on Thursday night. She turned up in a dazed and muddy state 90
 >minutes later at Mackay Base Hospital.

 >UFO investigator Dr Martin Gottschall is not surprised at the
 >woman's claim.

 >"These sort of things seem to be happening all around the
 >globe," he said.

 >"What these people will appreciate the most is for other people
 >to suspend judgement for a while; don't call them idiots or
 >crazy or accuse them of trying to create some sort of a hoax. By
 >and large this is rarely the case," Mr Gottschall said.


Hi All,

Anytime UFO abduction gets discussed, the toll taken on the
experiencer rarely, if ever, enters the discussion. A major part
of the reason for my involvement on a public level has to do
with raising awareness of this human component/element. I want
to share two brief reports with you that many of you have never
heard, but which corroborates the 'relocation' detail in the
Australian case.

Russ Hudson is one the abductees that participated in the 1992
conference that was held at M.I.T. on the subject of abduction.
Rusty is also one of Budd Hopkins 'research projects' which is
how I met and befriended him.

Rusty was on a playing tour of the South with four other
musicians. I wish I had time/space to recount all of the details
of this 'group' abduction experience. It happened while these
men were all fully alert and awake. The bit that has relevance
here however is how it ended for Rusty. He awoke after a
harrowing "alien/UFO" experience on the balcony of a room
several floors lower, and on the opposite side of the hotel they
were staying in.

I was looking this guy right in the eye as he shared his
abduction account with me. Sure, we can _all_ be 'fooled' under
the right circumstances and by the right person. But there's
something palpable that you can feel in the pit of your stomach
when you hear someone speaking an emotional truth. I got that
feeling when Rusty described how frightened and disoriented he
felt when he discovered where he was. There were guests in the
room whose balcony he had been deposited on. They were as upset
and confused as to how he got there as Russ was. I believe that
balcony was on a sixth floor room. Russ and his band-mates were
all several floors higher and on the other end of the building.

I know how he felt because I had a similar experience; missing
time and physical displacement, that was connected to a close-up
encounter/sighting of a silent, glowing, disc shaped, flying
object. I had never felt so frightened, disoriented, and
confused in all my life. In fact, that is the _only_ such
experience I had ever had.

Another abductee (lady who shall remain nameless) told me that
more than anything else connected to her own UFO occupant
encounter, was the overwhelming fear and disorientation she had
experienced when she 'suddenly' found herself miles away from
her own home, barefoot, outside, at night, in her nightgown.

As strange as this detail in the reports may seem, it comes up
time and again in UFO abduction reports. Mr. Gotshall is right.
Judgement needs to be suspended _at_first,_ but IMHO it should
be done for the sake of tending to the wounded psyche of the
witness/participant. If it is warranted, an investigation can be
performed. But at first, the abductees should be treated as
non-judgementally a way as possible  just as in any other cases
involving trauma to the victim. (Rape, assault, physical abuse
cases etc.) Qualifier: Unless there is immediate evidence that
the person's report is an outright fabrication.

Never forget that each "abductee" represents an actual "person."
One that is just like you in all important respects. Just think
for one moment how you would feel, what it would do to your
head, if you had such an terrifying, world-view shattering, and
completely _intrusive_ encounter yourself.

I'll bet you'd want someone to listen to you without laughing in
your face. I've been on the receiving end of that kind of
emotionally violent/assaulting ridicule. Myself and few others
were verbally assaulted/attacked for an hour by a crowd of 300+
people. Budd wanted us all to walk out early in the doings but I
told him no. That we were telling the truth and we had no reason
to 'run'. That we wanted to stand up to these people. We all
talked to each other afterwards, and I know better, but it hurt
like hell anyway. It wasn't right. Some folks have no idea how
genuinely hurtful ridicule can be.

Keep an open mind, and always give folks a fair hearing. Not
much to grant a neighbor eh? You are asked to give nothing more
and nothing less than you would expect if it was _you_ that this
impossible strangeness was happening to.   ;)

Regards,

John Velez

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."








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   Oct > Oct 10

                         Re: Getting A Grip - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:32:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 03:17:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Getting A Grip - Velez


 >From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Getting A Grip
 >Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:02:20 -0600

 >Let me see if I have this X'y Packie Thingy correct:

 >1. We have a real attorney who sometimes wears purple robes in
 >Sedona and spends time on top of the mountain attempting to
 >bring forth the mothership to benefit humanity and then stands
 >before courts of law pleading against conspiratorial government
 >shenanigans in order to enlighten the masses. Rumored to wear
 >blinking light beenies to make the advanced mothership easier to
 >locate the spot of contact.

<snip>


 >4. These characters keep their hands in their own pockets.

 >Hummmmmmmm....which to choose, which to choose....?

 >Wendy Connors


Hi Wendy, hi All,

I must say Wendy, the longer I know you, the better I like you.
Well said.

Regards,

John Velez




                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









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   Oct > Oct 10

                  Re: Circles Grow More Complex - Anderson

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 22:55:42 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 03:18:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Circles Grow More Complex - Anderson


 >Source: The Western Producer [Western Canada's Farm Weekly]

 >http://www.producer.com/current_news/this_week/contact.html

 >this document web posted: Thursday October 4, 2001


 >Circles Grow More Complex

 >By Ed White
 >Winnipeg bureau


Thanks for posting this, Errol.

The print version of the article also has along with it on the
same page (19) a piece on the 422 foot Red Deer, Alberta
formation, now known to have been first seen September 2, and
the unusual sightings of triangular lights in the area near the
same time. The same or similar article ran in numerous other
papers as well, the Red Deer Advocate in particular (three
articles so far).

Additional media listings of newspaper articles, etc. covering
the Canadian crop circles in 2001 can be found here:

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/media.html

We appreciate the Western Producer's continued coverage of the
phenomenon in Canada, as it is often referred to as 'the bible'
of the agricultural industry here, and is Canada's oldest
farming newspaper as far as I know (since 1923, and I can
remember reading it at my grandparents' as a kid). Indeed, a
number of circle reports from farmers have often come to us
because of WP's coverage the past few years.

Paul Anderson

___________________


The Eras Project
http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

Canadian Crop Circle Research Network
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

Fields of Dreams Webcast Radio Show
(Night Search Paranormal Network)
http://www.nightsearch.net/hosts/paul_anderson.html










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   Oct > Oct 10

              Re: Rendlesham: Landing Deposited 10x Background

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 23:56:51 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 03:21:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Rendlesham: Landing Deposited 10x Background


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Rendlesham: Landing Deposited 10x Background Radiation!
 >Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 04:38:45 +0100

 >The following - and preceding evidence highlighted at source -
 >may be of interest:

 >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UFORL/message/233

James, the article referred to above asserts that the scale on
the dials of the CDV7000 Geiger counter is similar to the dial
of the AN/PDR27 (the equipment reported to have been used at the
Rendlesham forest event). The article then goes on to assert
that the lowest scale on the PDR27 was 0-0.5 mRad/hour,
apparently graduated at 0.01 mRad/hour intervals.

According to the recorded dialogue between Halt and the PDR
operator, it appears that the instrument was set to the 0.5
mRad/hour scale, and the deflection was about 7 graduations on
the scale, ie, 0.07 mRad per hour.

This amounts to 14% of the full-scale deflection, and having
worked on electronic measuring equipment, I would conservatively
expect an accuracy at this point on the scale to be in the order
of +/- 50% of the value read. This would suggest an actual value
of between 0.035-0.105 mRad/hour.

At: http://www.rendlesham.com/rend3.htm

You quote Giles Cowling of the DERA Radiation Protection
Services as saying that the expected normal background radiation
would be in the order of 0.01 mRad/hour.

This still makes the reading between 3 and 10.5 times the
expected reading, in my view. (However, I have serious
reservations about the applicability of the readings in
comparison to the figures provided to me by the NRPB-more of
that later in the post).

Furthermore, an article by Ian Ridpath at:

http://www.debunker.com/texts/RidpathRendlesham2.html

Contains the following:

"My earlier inquiries had shown that the radiation monitor used
by Halt and his team would have been of the type known as a PDR
27. On behalf of Frank Close, NRPB contacted the American
manufacturers of the PDR 27, who stated that Halt's peak
measurement of 0.1 mR/h was the "bottom reading on the lowest
range" of the monitor and was "of little or no significance."
They noted further that these instruments are designed to be
used to monitor workplace fields or radiation levels after
sizable nuclear incidents and are therefore not suitable for
environmental monitoring at background levels. On the basis of
this information from the manufacturers, NRPB concluded that
using such an instrument to establish a level of 10 times
background (i.e. 0.1 mR/h) is not credible."

While I would agree that the accuracy of the readings at either
extreme of the scale would not be suitable for scientific
measurement, they are still sufficiently accurate to distinguish
between background radiation and level of a factor of 3 to 10
times that level.

I have a number of questions which you may be able to help me
with:

The suggested value of background radiation (0.01 mRad/hour)
appears to me to be an arbitrary suggested value. As you
probably know, background levels can vary, and are influenced to
a large extent by local Geology.

I have obtained a copy of  NRPB-R191, "Gamma-radiation levels
Outdoors in Great Britain", available from the NRPB at a cost of
�5.00. I have a little difficulty obtaining the levels for the
area around Rendlesham, for two reasons:

1. The table is based on an obscure grid system. I have emailed
Ordnance Survey for help with this, but if anyone on the list
has run into this problem before, and can answer it, I would
appreciate their advice.

2. The levels are expressed in nGy per hour. I think I have all
the information that I need to make a conversion, I just have to
understand it!

I am curious as to where Ian got his information that the model
used was an AN/PDR27-this source is not identified in his
article alluded to above. I am aware that this was a standard
model issued to most US military units at the time, but given
that Nuclear weapons were apparently stored near the base, it
seems likely to me that other equipment may have been available.
(I would expect regular readings with a very sensitive
instrument to be taken at least weekly around the WSA, to check
for any faults with the screening, or leakage from the
contents).

This brings me onto the next part. I don't believe that the
readings taken at the time of the incident are of any value
whatsoever. It is certainly wrong to compare them to the
"official" background levels for the following reasons:

1. We don't know how thoroughly the operator was trained on the
equipment. If he was a member of the unit radiological survey
team, then he was probably very skilled, on the other hand, if
he was the first guy to grab the Geiger thingy on the way out,
he may even have been using the wrong tube!

2. The background readings provided by the NRPB were taken under
very specific conditions. They were all taken with identical
instruments. All of the instruments were sampling for a 600
second period. The G-M tubes were mounted on tripods,
vertically, 1 metre above the ground. Surveyors were also
specifically advised not to take measurements in densely wooded
areas.

3. It seems reaonable to assume that the probe was held directly
over the depressions, and close to, or even inside them.
Readings taken in such a way could easily be affected by old
building rubble, or foreign natural rock fragments (by foreign,
I mean not typical of the local geology). The depressions may
even have focussed particles onto the sampling tube.

In conclusion, I don't believe that the readings can be viewed
as evidence of any sort, either for propounders of a grounded
UFO, or the detractors, and any further investigation along
these lines is a waste of effort.

Regards, Joe









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                  Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 19:02:13 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 03:24:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Mortellaro


 >Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 12:16:36 -0500
 >From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse


 >>Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:58:51 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse

 >>>Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 07:51:00 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >>>Subject: Same Song, Second Verse
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Hello Mr. Mortellaro, hello All,

 ><snip>

 >>Regarding this List and its members:

 >>That _was_ a good thread you quoted. Did you participate in it?
 >>It included some really _good people_ that contrary to your
 >>misinterpretations, have made some _genuine_ contributions to
 >>ufology. More than just 'rap'.

 ><snip>

 >>Speaking _strictly_ for myself.

 >>I came to this List at EBK's invitation. He was being a
 >>'Guardian Angel" by providing myself and Budd Hopkins an outlet
 >>to the public and to the UFO community when we needed it most.
 >>Budd had invited me to participate in a NOVA segment (WGBH/PBS)
 >>to act as a representative of one of his many cases. NOVA was
 >>screwing us over and Errol was the only one who gave us an
 >>opportunity to get our side of the story out to the public. In
 >>gratitude for that and many, many other things, I have always
 >>remained an active and contributing member of the UpDates
 >>family. I love some of these people.

 >>As for you:

 >>It was through me, (AIC) that you yourself were introduced to
 >>this List. Something I'd like to publicly cop to, and apologize
 >>for. You, more than any other, use an almost inordinate amount
 >>of bandwidth criticizing this List and those who participate in
 >>it. You rarely have anything good to say about it. I had held
 >>out some hope that you would prove to be an asset to those of us
 >>who have 'come out' in public with a mind to making a meaningful
 >>contribution. I'm sorry. I completely disagree with your opinion
 >>of this List and with those who contribute to it. If it's such a
 >>waste of time and all talk, what is your purpose in being here?
 >>Frankly I don't think you have a bloody clue as to what this
 >>List is all about.

 >Excellent comments John, you have hit the nail squarely on the
 >head.

 >This was also demonstrated by Ms. Keith's comment regarding the
 >Alien Autopsy CD review in her Sept. 28, 2001 post to UpDates.

 >>Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy

 >>"Had I known that this was gonna cause this big of stir,
 >>you can bet I would have asked sooner! <G>Nothing
 >>beats a good controversy. "

 >A private e-mail she made to myself and a couple others involved
 >in the CD review didn't deserve a civil reply.

 >To clear up that misguided thread and statements :

 >The CD's of the AA film and a Web site where reviews and
 >comments are being posted now, will be made available to
 >EVERYONE in a few weeks. We'll make a public announcement and
 >strongly encourage open debate and additional discussion.

 >Initial participation was by invitation only. Logistically, and
 >because some of the participants requested confidentiality and
 >e-mail privacy, the initial discussion is taking place
 >privately. However, all this is being recorded, and documented.
 >Save for those participants who want their info and comments
 >removed, everything else will be made available when concluded
 >in a few weeks.

 >Those original invitees who elected not to honor this
 >temporary confidentiality request have been removed
 >from the current private discussion.


Gentleman, Errol,

I don't know what you are talking about Mr. Velez. I did not
receive your post quoted above. Not in my files. Perhaps you
should include in your comments, the thread in which I am
allegedly ranting UpDates and/or it's members.

Further, my name is not on this thread. So what the heck is my
name doing on it?

Dave, are you in agreement with John in regard to my
comportment? Clearly you guys have me at a disadvantage. If so,
let me know, as I have defended Vetterick and the AA CD program
to the end. To wit, I am trusted, as are a few others, with the
site password. I haven't a clue, it's true. But about why I am
on your scheiss list.

(sigh)

Mr. John Velez, your opinion of me is irrelevant except when you
are misunderstanding, misquoting, misreporting and
misinterpreting my views. This may be an opportune time to clue
me in. Just for the record.

In the final analysis, what you or anyone else may think of me
is not nearly as important to me as you obviously believe. Just
make certain that you are dead right about me and not just
stating your opinion about me or my meaning. When I was a list
member of AIC, your opinion of my humor was exceedingly
positive. What's changed is not me. Gogito, ergo ...

This List is mine as much as it is anyone elses. And I am not a
happy puppy over your personalizing rants concerning me. I've
written many a post here, oft told Errol how much I value the
list, how much I am indepted to him for allowing me to
participate.  I also respect truth. I have not heard any truth
when it comes to your opinions concerning me. Not of late.

So, unless most of this list cares, why don't you just do what
you said you would do on SIX seperate occasions, not answer my
posts, hit "delete" or just go away... from me. My hand, sir, is
still extended. And it will stay that way until hell freezes
over. But I repeat myself.

Fondest personal regards.

Jim










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                         Re: Nexus Magazine? - Hale

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 04:44:56 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 03:26:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Nexus Magazine? - Hale


 >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 20:12:58 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Nexus Magazine?

 >I would like to get input on what the members of this List think
 >about Nexus Magazine? Credible or not as a source of reliable
 >UFO/paranormal information?

 >The URL for the magazine is:
 >
 >http://www.nexusmagazine.com/


Hi,

I would imagine that anyone answering to the negative, must be
able to substantiate the Non -credibility of all such data
published in Nexus.

I personally feel that Nexus have brought a few gems out into
the open, for example the 'Poltergeist Experiment' very
interesting to see physical manifestations of such phenomena
contained within a set laboratory. This was an excellent
article.

Roy..








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                    Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Rebecca

From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 21:26:17 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 03:31:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Rebecca


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:58:51 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Velez>

 >>Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 07:51:00 -0700 (PDT)
 >>From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Same Song, Second Verse
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Errol

 >>I don't know what you might do with this - perhaps post it, if
 >>you think it interesting.

 ><snip>

 >Hello Mr. Mortellaro, hello All,

 >You confessed:

 >>I certainly haven't done anything to try and change anything
 >>having to do with the study of UFOs

 >I just wanted to grab the opportunity to agree with you on
 >'something.' "Houston, we have successfully docked with the
 >pod." :)

 >>and apparently most folks haven't either,

 >That's wrong. Comments like that should always be preceded by,
 >"speaking for myself" in order to maintain a semblance of
 >honesty.

 >>but we sure like to talk about it!

 >Some do, some don't. This sounds more like a 'projection' on
 >your part rather than an objective or even truthful
observation.

 >Regarding this List and its members:

 >That _was_ a good thread you quoted. Did you participate in it?
 >It included some really _good people_ that contrary to your
 >misinterpretations, have made some _genuine_ contributions to
 >ufology. More than just 'rap'.

 >I tip my hat to all of those who participated in that thread way
 >back when. I not only think that people like Dennis Stacy and
 >Mark Cashman, or my beloved Rebecca (and others) have made
 >_solid_ contributions to ufology, I think they made _meaningful_
 >ones. Contributions that only they, because of their unique
 >points of view, and also because they are so unique as
 >individuals, could have made.

John!!

Most of those comments above came from me and I certainly hope
that you aren't directing your comments to me! If so, I'm gonna
have a bone to pick with you.

I can be obtuse some of the time, but I'd like to think that
most of the time I'm not obtuse at all.

The point I was trying to make with the quoting of the threads
from 1997 was that many of us were trying to tell Stephen
Bassett the same thing everyone is telling him now! He didn't
listen to some of best commentators and researchers three years
ago, why should even think he would listen now?

My comment about not having done anything pertained to me not
having worked to make this subject more palatable for the
general public. And I haven't seen evidence that anyone else has
either. But I don't think that's something other researcher have
to take on, if they don't want to. I'm certainly not criticizing
the likes of you Johh, or Jan Aldrich or Dick all or any number
of folks who produce great commentary and research that is
honest and free of politics. Unlike Mr. Bassett and the people
he represents.

Look what's happened to the MUFON Journal since Mr. Bassett
proposed it to be a peer review journal of ufology! I could go
on and on and comment again on his suggestions of four years
ago, but why beat a dead horse?

I thank you for thinking I have made a solid contribution to
ufology, but I disagree with you, I have done nothing. I haven't
changed one person's mind. I certainly tried to get to the
bottom of the autopsy saga, but that's hardly a contribution.
For the past three years I have mainly been a lurker on this
List and have done nothing to contribute to research of the
subject. I wish I had the passion for the subject that I once
had, I do think I could make a contribution, but the "thrill" is
gone. Burnt out or something. I don't know.

I do enjoy reading this List and thank Errol from the heart of
my bottom for all the hard work he's done. I've been on this
List from day one and I don't want to even think about all the
stupid things I've typed over the years. Please don't remind me.

It was my intention to leave the subject of UFOs behind. I
planned to do that when this thread was over. I am tired of
watching everyone swim upstream. It's wearing me out. But now I
have to go try to clear up a little mess with Mr. Vetterick.

I can assure everyone I won't let the door hit me in the rear as
leave.


Rebecca

"Who is unsure how Jim M got involved in this thread. I think I
must be missing some messages."









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                    Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Rebecca

From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 21:49:30 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 03:36:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Rebecca


 >Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 12:16:36 -0500
 >From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse

 >>Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:58:51 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse

 >>>Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 07:51:00 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >>>Subject: Same Song, Second Verse
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Hello Mr. Mortellaro, hello All,

 ><snip>

 >>Regarding this List and its members:

 >>That _was_ a good thread you quoted. Did you participate in
 >>it?
 >>It included some really _good people_ that contrary to your
 >>misinterpretations, have made some _genuine_ contributions
 >>to ufology. More than just 'rap'.

 ><snip>

 >>Speaking _strictly_ for myself.

 >>I came to this List at EBK's invitation. He was being a
 >>'Guardian Angel" by providing myself and Budd Hopkins an outlet
 >>to the public and to the UFO community when we needed it most.
 >>Budd had invited me to participate in a NOVA segment (WGBH/PBS)
 >>to act as a representative of one of his many cases. NOVA was
 >>screwing us over and Errol was the only one who gave us an
 >>opportunity to get our side of the story out to the public.
 >>In gratitude for that and many, many other things, I have
 >>always remained an active and contributing member of the UpDates
 >>family. I love some of these people.

 >>As for you:

 >>It was through me, (AIC) that you yourself were introduced to
 >>this List. Something I'd like to publicly cop to, and apologize
 >>for. You, more than any other, use an almost inordinate amount
 >>of bandwidth criticizing this List and those who participate in
 >>it. You rarely have anything good to say about it. I had held
 >>out some hope that you would prove to be an asset to those of us
 >>who have 'come out' in public with a mind to making a meaningful
 >>contribution. I'm sorry. I completely disagree with your opinion
 >>of this List and with those who contribute to it. If it's such a
 >>waste of time and all talk, what is your purpose in being here?
 >>Frankly I don't think you have a bloody clue as to what this
 >>List is all about.

 >>Most sincerely,

 >>John Velez

 >Excellent comments John, you have hit the nail squarely on the
 >head.

 >This was also demonstrated by Ms. Keith's comment regarding the
 >Alien Autopsy CD review in her Sept. 28, 2001 post to UpDates.


 >>Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy

 >>"Had I known that this was gonna cause this big of stir,
 >>you can bet I would have asked sooner! <G>Nothing
 >>beats a good controversy. "

 >A private e-mail she made to myself and a couple others involved
 >in the CD review didn't deserve a civil reply.

And as you and everyone else who received knows, I didn't want
one or expect one.

But the private email to you and others was only sent after you
sent me an email that would have been an insult to anyone who
has half a brain. It was my opinion after reading that email
that you were trying to act as a moderator for UFO UpDates.

 >To clear up that misguided thread and statements :

 >The CD's of the AA film and a Web site where reviews and
 >comments are being posted now, will be made available to
 >EVERYONE in a few weeks. We'll make a public announcement and
 >strongly encourage open debate and additional discussion.

Oh I thought Neil made the website public a few weeks ago when
he posted this:

"So why not start "elsewhere" to begin with and avoid the
hassle, if folk _are_ that interested, pop in and have a browse
round Dave's site and even ask for a set of CD's and join in,
though we _will_ have to start covering our costs where the CD's
are concerned."

The complete post can be found here:

http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/2001/sep/m28-003.shtml

 >Initial participation was by invitation only. Logistically, and
 >because some of the participants requested confidentiality and
 >e-mail privacy, the initial discussion is taking place
 >privately. However, all this is being recorded, and documented.
 >Save for those participants who want their info and comments
 >removed, everything else will be made available when concluded
 >in a few weeks.

IOW, it could be said that people might see only what you want
to them see. How do we know which people didn't want their
comments made public and which one y'all didn't want to make
public?

 >Those original invitees who elected not to honor this
 >temporary confidentiality request have been removed
 >from the current private discussion.

That's will big of you guys. From everything I've seen posted on
this List save for Jim M's comments, no one understood your
confidentiality aggreement. But he's hardly a credible source,
IMO.

You darn tootin' I sent you an email not worthy of a reply, but
only because you requested something of me that was ridiculous.
Your misleading statements concerning this incident doesn't help
your credibility any at all.


Rebecca









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                       Re: Nexus Magazine? - Johnstone

From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 02:55:01 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:39:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Nexus Magazine? - Johnstone


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nexus Magazine?
 >Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 16:57:01 +0100

 >>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 20:12:58 -0500
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Nexus Magazine?

 >>I would like to get input on what the members of this List think
 >>about Nexus Magazine? Credible or not as a source of reliable
 >>UFO/paranormal information?

Hi Joe,

 >I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them - they got
 >quite nasty when I suggested (contrary to their assertions) that
 >the Transistor is of completely terrestrial origin, a natural
 >progression from the semiconductor diode.

Could you please explain to me in as simple language as possible
;-) what the transistor has to do with their story? Are you
saying the entire story is incorrect or that there are just some
mistakes.

 >In the end, they threatened me with legal action

Legal action for doing what????

 >(after calling
 >me all sorts of names, and accusing me of being racist!).

Being a racist towards whom? What did you say that was being a
racist? Did they say?

Thanks allot... ;-)

Lara








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                  Re: Magonia Supplement No. 37. - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:25:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:35:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 37. - Maccabee


 >Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 20:58:53 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Magonia Supplement No. 37.

 >MAGONIA Supplement

 >No. 37 5 October 2001

<snip>


(Book Review)

 >Illobrand von Ludwiger. Best UFO Cases Europe, National
 >Institute for Discovery Science, 1998. �18.50.

 >This illustrated A4 document presents a number of UFO cases both
 >old and new from Europe, but one cannot say that they are the
 >'best' cases; most are simply reports of lights in the night. It
 >is possible that some of these may be poorly understood
 >atmospheric phenomena, but my gut feeling is that most if not
 >all would resolve into very conventional IFOs if subjected to
 >detailed, critical investigation. Of course the Belgian
 >triangles and Trans-en-Provence get the obligatory look in.

<snip>

 >The report also features introductions from representatives of
 >the American UFO establishment, Messsrs Maccabee, Schuessler and
 >Haines, the last devoting the space to his own quarrel with the
 >Sturrock committee rather than discussing the work in hand.


For further details on one of the important radar cases cited by
von Ludwiger, see:

http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/articles/maccabee.

Wherein... you will find a table of contents for an article I
wrote in response to the negative report of the Sturrock Panel.
(Note: there was nary a comment on my paper by the "noisy
negativists.") Click on "Linear Track Mach 3" and you can read
"beyond" what von Ludwiger put into his book.

(Of course, the rest of my "Atmosphere...."  paper is also good
reading!)









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                             Teasing & Ridicule

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 22:43:25 +1000
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:38:28 -0400
Subject: Teasing & Ridicule


List and others,

No doubt most here by now will have heard or read about a young
women reporting that she was abducted in Queensland Australia,
if not refer to reference below.

 >Source: ABC News OnLine [The Australian Broadcasting Corporation]

 >http://www.abc.net.au/news/state/qld/metqld-9oct2001-6.htm

 >Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:40 AEST

 >Abduction Claim Gives Ufologists Food For Thought

<snip>

Being a UFO researcher and having people around me know this
means one becomes the brunt of other peoples teasing and
ridicule when news items like the one above come about. Even the
investigating cop being interviewed on TV about the abduction
was laughing during the interview.

In the old days I used to get upset about being teased and
ridiculed and wanted to punch someone's lights out, now days I
am a little older and a little wiser, so I have learnt to remain
clam and just screw with their minds.

I do this by asking the ones doing the teasing to prove that the
Universe exists. This is not easy to do, if fact one cannot
prove that the Universe does in fact exist, after all were does
all the space and the matter that fills it come from? If there
was a BIG BANG then were did all the matter for this BIG BANG
come from in the first place. No one knows. You can go back in
time to the beginning (our idea of the beginning) of time and
that is were it stops, because no one knows or can prove were
all of which makes up the Universe came from in the first place.
So, I am not really here and Aliens don't exist.

*If anyone here can prove or knows were all matter and space
originated from I would really like to hear from them.*

It is interesting to point out that the indigenous people of
Australia tell dream time stories of a time before planets,
galaxies and the universe as we know it. They talk about how
spirits ruled this time, perhaps this is were thought first
manifested itself? which in turn lead to us (after billions and
billions of year) as the saying goes, "I think, therefore I am."

Anyway, some Australians are having a good laugh at this person
expense, which has me wondering, if this is a hoax, given all
the ridicule and teasing why would anyone fake such a thing.
Goodness only knows I get teased to death for just researching
damn Aliens and UFO's. Imagine saying you have seen one or was
abducted by one. Something I think someone would only admit to
if it really happened to them. (Well here in Aust anyway, as no
one would ever let you live down saying you had been abducted or
seen one. It would be brought up every time you entered a room
or party ECT.) You really do get treated like a freak here.

One witness to a UFO landing I interviewed a while back got so
sick and tried of the teasing etc., they changed their story and
started telling everyone they just made the whole thing up for a
laugh. Cannot say I blame them for doing that.


Tophar









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                       Re: Nexus Magazine? - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:42:20 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:18:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Nexus Magazine? - McGonagle


 >Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 02:55:01 -0700
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
 >Subject: Re: Nexus Magazine?

 >>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Nexus Magazine?
 >>Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 16:57:01 +0100

 >>>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 20:12:58 -0500
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Nexus Magazine?

<snip>

 >Could you please explain to me in as simple language as possible
 >;-) what the transistor has to do with their story? Are you
 >saying the entire story is incorrect or that there are just some
 >mistakes.

At their website, they have an article entitled
"Reverse-Engineering Roswell UFO Technology", by someone called
Jack Shulman, which can be found at:

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/ACCandRoswell.html

In it the author talks around the possibility that the
Transistor was given to us by Aliens. He doesn't actually come
out and say that he thinks this, I think that is because he
knows how ridiculous the idea is, and how easy it is to
disprove, and it probably sells books too. Someone on another
list asked what people thought of the article in January this
year, and I wrote:

"sorry to disapoint you, but certainly the part of the article
about the transistor it total Bovine solid waste product, and
this puts the whole article in a bad light. The transistor is a
natural development of the diode. Details of the discovery of
the diode (and other technological advances) can be found at:

http://www.pbs.org/transistor/science/info/diodes.html

and the first transistor at:

http://www.pbs.org/transistor/science/events/pointctrans.html

Other techologies referred to by the author can also be traced
back to conventional roots. If he told me that the Sun will rise
in East tomorrow morning, I would ask for a second opinion!"

You can read about the development of semiconductor technology
at the links above.

Anyway, I was irritated at this apparent attempt to make money
out of public gullibility, that I copied the above post to Nexus
magazine. They initially questioned my qualifications to make
such a statement (they were unaware that I am a qualified
electronics engineer), and also forwarded my post to several
other people. Here is an extract from a response that I posted
on 29th January to Duncan Roads (then editor of Nexus Magazine)
and an anonymous poster, signed simply as Imagination Internet
Inc., Newark, New Jersey.

[start quote]

"Jack has stated firmly, that he never claimed that they were
from alien sources, just that he was told that by others"

-and makes a point of regurgitating the rumour (while avoiding
responsibility for it), perpetuating the fallacy. Why does he do
that? If I told him that the Earth was a cube, and that science
had deliberately covered up this fact, would he repeat that
publicly?

"John Bardeen testing what looks like minute fragments of
integrated circuits "

In order to tell if they were fragments of integrated circuits,
they would need to be examined under magnification, or else all
that you can say is that they appeared like lumps of plastic, or
etched metal. Both materials were probably in plentiful supply
in the lab.

"He shares certain beliefs in common with Stephen Hawking, who
was on TV questioning Bill Clinton on the very subject a few
years back"

Are you suggesting that Stephen Hawking doubts the man-made
origin of the Transistor? If so, I will try to contact him and
ask him to explain his foundation for this belief as well. If
not, what is your point? Incidentally, what did Bill Clinton
know about semiconductor theory?

"At no time did I have co-valent bonding with Monica Lewinski!"
;-)

As to my knowledge of the origins of the transistor, I wasn't
personally present when it was discovered, but I qualified as an
electronics engineer in 1978, following two years studying
electronics (including semiconductor and even valve theory), so
I consider that I have some knowledge of how transistors and
diodes work, and how they are closely related to each other.

"We have also publicized the statistical likelihood that life
exists that bears intelligence, elsewhere in the Universe, and
that things like the "orbs" continue to be worthwhile for
investigation, since the indoor versions of them, pictures taken
with very precise cameras, reveal a technology at play that is
clearly coexisting in our space, without being able to be
directly touched, but which can be seen and clearly
photographed, as in the Denver examples."

I do not dispute the statistical likelyhood that intelligent
life exists elsewhere in the universe. I also accept that it is
possible (though in my opinion, unlikely) that any such life has
reached our solar system. Also, it may surprise you to know that
I have photographed 'orbs'. I can, if you like, forward copies
of the images, but I have passed the copyright ownership to a
paranormal group, so you would need to approach them to obtain
permission to publish. I accept that they are interesting, and
worthy of further investigation, but I have not reached any
conclusion about them having a technological origin-I currently
think it more likely that they are an unknown natural
phenomenon.

[end quote]

I then got an hilarious post from someone called Jarv Fitch,
Public Relations (hahahaha!), Imagination Internet which
included the following lines:

"Hey, McGonagle, you're so unbelievably visionless, you think a
diode has more than one mineral part! Pardon my French, but:
This letter is entirely my opinion, and no, even though I am of
Scotch-Irish decent, I deplore people like Shockley, I think the
world would be a better place if dysinformationist propagandists
like he and Glenn Campbell were packed off to pick potatoes in
Dublin and Edinborough, instead of pulling this continual
nonsense for a Bell Labs in 1947, or today on the Web".

"I think Shockley was part of the Thule/Aryan cult, which
embraced Shockley because he was a bastard of an anti-Semite and
a bastard of a racist, and he is literally the "god" of the
Aryan techno cultists. I believe you're simply attacking the
story, because you are, like Lamphere and Ranney and Campbell,
in league with that cult, like so much of the pro Shockley Aryan
cult: unable to restrain oneself against attacking a "Jew" in
the spotlight, much as the same cult has attacked other "Jews"
and "Blacks"."

"The fact is: you're wrong. Fact is, Werner, its IMPOSSIBLE that
the transistor was suddenly discovered the way AT&T claimed: 5
minutes on Bardeens test table and bingo, he had it. ABSURD.
Stop writing us about this, you're wrong, you're stuck in words
trying to use letters like P and N, or 2 and 3 or diode and
triode to try to THINK the correlation into existence".

"I gather that what's behind all this is your RELIGION. For you,
apparently, if the Unversed might ever be conjectured to have
aliens in it, then your entire "mankind was created in God's
image" and "garden of Eden" belief system would crumble with you
at its epicenter. Self-importance deification of human beings
is, itself, a crime against humanity."

"Pardon my rant, but even though its only been 1 year, I'm very
tired of reading fake "Joe McGonagles", named after a WC Fields
character in a movie, aliased to free, untraceable servers,
trying to disrupt this story for their own purposes. It's
nauseating."

So it would seem that I am a racist, pretending to be myself,
but my real name is Werner? The actual post was much longer, and
I have extracted some of the more entertaining bits. If anyone
wants to see the entire post (or series of posts) you nan mail
me directly.

 >>In the end, they threatened me with legal action

 >Legal action for doing what????


Here is the message that I posted to the mail list (not this one)
on 30th January:

"I received a mail from editor@nexusmagazine.com , but I can't
forward it on to the list because at the end it says:

"THIS LETTER IS NOT MEANT FOR PUBLICATION. Kindly cease and
desist, we do not wish to debate further any BS you've gathered
and sent us before, or which Bruce Maccabbee or Bruce Cornet
gathered for you. Do not Spam us further, and make no defamatory
comments about us, or about anyone here, or appropriate legal
action will be authorized."

In it, they said that they are right next to Bell Labs, and they
have met with people from there and confirmed privately that
Bell received something from the US Army in 1947, etc etc
(yawn). It goes on to mention Stanton Friedman and Jack Shulman
perpetuated "rumors" (and yes, I quote the word "rumors"
directly from the mail!) about the alien intervention. It goes
on to mention other "rumors" about the US military incarcerating
Jews for 40 years to work on sensitive projects......

They also say that they aren't interested in what I have to say
(presumably because it does not fit in with their fantasies).
These people cannot be regarded as authoritative, or even
rational, where science is concerned, they simply don't want to
know the truth, and won't entertain anyone who thinks that they
may be wrong (though I find them very entertaining!).
Apparently, I am a part of the "big conspiracy"!"

 >>(after calling
 >>me all sorts of names, and accusing me of being racist!).

 >Being a racist towards whom? What did you say that was being a
 >racist? Did they say?

 >Thanks allot... ;-)

 >Lara

I hope the above answers your question!

Regards,


Joe








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   Oct > Oct 10

                   Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Vetterick

From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:00:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:20:58 -0400
Subject: Re:  Same Song, Second Verse - Vetterick


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 19:02:13 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 12:16:36 -0500
 >>From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse

 >>>Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:58:51 -0400
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse

 >>>>Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 07:51:00 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>>From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >>>>Subject: Same Song, Second Verse
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<Big Snip>


 >Gentleman, Errol,

 >I don't know what you are talking about Mr. Velez. I did not
 >receive your post quoted above. Not in my files. Perhaps you
 >should include in your comments, the thread in which I am
 >allegedly ranting UpDates and/or it's members.

 >Further, my name is not on this thread. So what the heck is my
 >name doing on it?

 >Dave, are you in agreement with John in regard to my
 >comportment? Clearly you guys have me at a disadvantage. If so,
 >let me know, as I have defended Vetterick and the AA CD program
 >to the end. To wit, I am trusted, as are a few others, with the
 >site password. I haven't a clue, it's true. But about why I am
 >on your scheiss list.

<snip>

Jim... My comments were absolutely _not_ directed at you,
and IMO Mr. Velez's were not either.

You are honorable, truthful, trustworthy, and a gentleman.
Unfortunately, traits not common to all. I apologize if I
contributed to the confusion.


Kindest Regards

Dave









   UFO UpDates
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 10

                     Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:13:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:23:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Velez


 >Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 21:26:17 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:58:51 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Velez>

 >>>Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 07:51:00 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >>>Subject: Same Song, Second Verse
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>Errol

 >>>I don't know what you might do with this - perhaps post it, if
 >>>you think it interesting.

 >><snip>

Hi Rebecca,

You wrote:

 >John!!

 >Most of those comments above came from me and I certainly hope
 >that you aren't directing your comments to me! If so, I'm gonna
 >have a bone to pick with you.

No! What happened was; I had your post and Mortellaro's cued for
response and I confused 'em. No matter. What I said to Mortellaro
stands. I wouldn't retract a word of it. Whether it appeared in
the right context or not, I meant each and every word of what I
wrote to him and the mistake does not alter it's validity.
Actually, I'm killing two birds with one stone here because I
can explain (and apologize) to you, and I also know the 'docca'
will read this so I'm confident he will 'get the message.'

Sorry for confusion Rebecca. My mistake.  ;)

And BTW, what do you mean by:

a. You're leaving.

b. You've never made a 'contribution.'

I hope you're not going anywhere. You've threatened to pack your
bags and leave regularly for years. This time sounds different
though. I hope you change your mind and choose to stick around.
I'd miss the hell out of you.

As for, "no contribution" that is something best left to your
peers to determine. My feeling has always been that your input
in all the discussions and debates over the years has been
invaluable. By your presence and participation you have been a
part of helping to form public awareness and opinion on several
of the more important issues facing us all as individuals and as
'ufologists.' (Whatever the hell the latter is.)

Stick around Bex, we need _more_ good, honest, no-nonsense
people like you, not fewer. And if you do walk away, don't walk
away feeling frustrated or let down. You can be proud of your
"contribution" to the day to day doings in ufology over the last
several years.  :)


Warmest regards,

John Velez



                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."










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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 10

                         Re: Sheehan Saga - Anthony

From: Gary Anthony <garyant@mithrand.karoo.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:52:49 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:27:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Sheehan Saga - Anthony


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >Date: 7 Oct 2001 20:04:38 -0700
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Sheehan Saga - Cameron

<snip>

 >I learned shortly after the UpDate discussions took
 >place that Sheehan was somewhat upset with the
 >letter I sent to Marcia Smith, and I am therefore now
 >not in any position to resolve any problems that might
 >exist in his story. (I did however see him draw the
 >symbols for someone at the Bay Expo after his
 >workshop.)

 >As you may know Sheehan has taken a position
 >that he does not wish to answer questions on this case
 >as in his opinion it would only lead to more infighting.
 >That is his right, and he must pay whatever price
 >associated with that decision.

 >My suggestion to you, is that if you have some problem
 >with his version of events in 1977, you take on your role
 >as an investigator and phone him yourself. I will provide
 >you his phone number. I know he offered to meet with
 >Dick Hall to resolve any problems Dick had with the
 >story, and as far as I know Dick never took up Sheehan's
 >offer.

 >Grant Cameron


Hi List and Grant,

Grant this is an interesting post. I' ve managed to encourage a
few top notch scientists in the fields of linguistics and
cryptography to examine alleged alien semiotics, who have no
connections with ufology whatsoever. They would be more than
happy to look at a sample from Daniel Sheehan.

This is a matter, I've tried so far unsuccessfully, to advance
with Mr. Sheehan, I also emailed him and received no response. I
tried calling long distance too but reached someone else's
number due possibly to a number and or address change.

(I would like to follow this up further, if possible; and try
calling Daniel Sheehan again, for firsthand details, so if you
have no qualms about supplying me with his number off list, I
would very much appreciate it Grant).

Mr. Sheehan need not concern himself with any infighting, on my
part, as I have no axe to grind and the examination of samples
collected for the project will be scrutinised by language and
other relevant experts. Commentary on samples are up to experts
and the nature of science in this regard does not require to
make personal issues out of such data, nor should it.
Ufologists, on the other hand, may!!

So there is a need for concern, but what has to be assessed
here, on the part of both the individual and consensus is, does
science require to examine such claims? What are other concerns
and should these interfere with the aforementioned submission or
examination process for alien symbols or phonetics?

My understanding, taken from some involvement and expert opinion
of both ufologists and importantly aforementioned language
experts is an affirmative, yes samples and claims should be
examined and means brought into effect to reassuringly solve any
concerns to facilitate the process of having alleged alien
language and symbolism studied. There are other preliminary
steps which are necessary too, which define and experiment with
aspects that either could be considered related or confused with
this topic, that need to be ironed out. Also, widespread
sampling is essential and ideally would be better before
confabulation and other factors like media saturation can occur.
But we now see an array of such samples finding their way into
various media.

If, we are dealing with one or more alien language how important
is trying to understand and document this? There have been past
posts on list reflecting this topic, notably some very relevant
ones by John Velez, Greg Sandow and Steven Powell. At the end of
the day it boils down to what the experts think
(By experts I do not mean ufologists) and also what witnesses to
alleged semiotics can contribute regarding knowledge of the
source (or sources) of alleged alien semiotics and of alleged
aliens themselves.

Even if Mr Sheehan desires not to be directly involved, it would
be worthwhile to see what the symbols look like and perhaps
submit them as an anonymous sample? There are already, untold
number of abductees and others who have generously supplied
samples and information on this (and other) basis.

Comments welcome!

Regards

Gary Anthony











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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 10

                          Filer's Files #41 - 2001

From: WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:04:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:31:29 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #41 - 2001


Filer's Files #41 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
October 10, 2001, Majorstar@aol.com.
Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com,

UFO SIGHTINGS HAVE PICKED UP AGAIN IN THE US. Numerous UFOs were
observed around the US on September 11, the same day as the
World Trade Center attack after the grounding of all commercial
aircraft. UFOs were spotted in Massachusetts, New York,
Pennsylvania, Georgia, Ohio, Kentucky, Michigan, Wisconsin,
Illinois, Missouri, Nebraska, Norway, and Japan. US and Britain
attack Taliban in Afghanistan.

MASSACHUSETTS UFOs

REVERE -- Logan Airport had been shut down due to trade center
attack on September 11, 2001. The witness who lives nearby had
observed fighter jets all day, but at 9:00 PM, he noticed a
star like object in the eastern sky. He ran home to get his
video camera and his father. Upon return we were greeted by
four others who were also observing the UFO over Short Beach.
Upon zooming in with my Sony Digital 8 handy cam. I noticed an
object that appeared to hover in the sky, but through my
binoculars it seemed to dance all around. There were blue and
red lights that were moving all around the craft. We then
witnessed a splitting of a vessel into parts. One object�s
light began to move rapidly in a different pattern as if to be
communicating with the other ship. One looked like fireworks,
and then quickly disappeared, and reappeared to the left at a
45 degree angle. We then witnessed a triangle type formation
with yet another craft. I have all sorts of video. Craft flew
ra! pidly east and we then saw three fighter jets flying to and
above these objects. Video footage played at slow motion shows
intricate light patterns on one ship, with very bright lights
in the center and almost force field like arcs moving from the
center to the outer edges. Many witnesses stopped their
vehicles to observe them.

OTIS AIR FORCE BASE -- A couple of friends and I were looking
at the sky September 11, 2001, for any air traffic since there
was only military traffic allowed. At 10:00 PM we saw two Air
Force jets in single file heading toward Otis Air Force Base in
Cape Cod. They were close together and in quite a hurry. A
minute later, my friend pointed out a circular object orange in
color moving at an enormous rate of speed across the open sky.
It seemed to zigzag and dance as if it was intelligent, and
then disappeared behind some trees. I've never seen anything as
fast as this in mid air. About ten minutes later, a similar
object came across the sky again from the east to southwest
with the same speed and sporadic movement, and again
disappeared behind some trees. Thanks to Peter Davenport,
Director National Reporting Center www.ufocenter.com.

NEW YORK A UFO SPHERE CHECKED US OUT WHILE WE FLEW MODEL
ROCKETS.

LYNBROOK -- The witness who is the father of three kids went
out for an hour to shoot off model rockets on September 2,
2001. They shot ten rockets with class B engines when the
father witnessed what appeared to be the wadding out of one of
the rockets at 5:35 PM. Using their binoculars, he realized the
object was nothing like they had ever seen. They were roundish
with a red light, but the red was not sharply defined. Then my
sons witnessed the light change from one big light, to smaller
lights. There were many small UFOs and two bigger ones. They
seemed to hover and then move quickly in different directions.
One even went in the opposite direction without slowing down.
Then after ten minutes, they started to disappear. The closest
one was shinny aluminum.

PENNSYLVANIA WHITE TEARDROP

LANSDALE -- The witness was on his deck talking to a friend on
the phone on September 11, 2001, about the attacks. He saw what
he thought were some unusually bright stars grouped together in
the shape of a perfect triangle. I had never noticed this
before. One suddenly shot across the sky that looked like a
white teardrop, then it was gone. This was much too large to be
a shooting star. There was no sound and no colored lights. I
have never seen anything like it.

HELLERTOWN -- Also on September 11, 2001, high in the northern
sky two objects were seen flashing red, green, and white lights
flying slowly in a circular path at 11:00 PM. Then one object
moved up to about a 60-degree angle, the other one flew below
the horizon. We observed it for an hour went and went to sleep
thinking it must have been satellite or something and we'd look
for it the next night, but it was not there. There were no
airplanes flying this night because of the terrorist attacks.
We heard airplanes flying over before, which drew our attention
outside; these planes went in an opposite direction of the
lights. We figured they were military aircraft, but these
lights did not appear to be anything we had seen before, they
were very slowly moving, almost stationary, about the size of a
very large star. Thanks to NUFORC www.ufocenter.com.

SHARON -- The Herald's Joe Pinchot reports A fireball shooting
across the early night sky on Tuesday, October 2, 2001, led
many residents from the southwestern part of Mercer County to
call 911. Supervisor Tom Meyer said calls for what apparently
was a meteor started coming in at 7:41 from the Shenango
Valley. "They've described it as a large ball of fire with a
tail," he said. Meyer said unless the meteor hit the ground in
Mercer County, there was nothing 911 could do and there were no
reports of that. Meteors, commonly called shooting stars, are
the streaks of light caused by dust particles from space
evaporating in the earth's atmosphere, according to NASA. The
particles themselves are called meteoroids, and, if they land
on earth, meteorites. Astronomer Ted Pedas of Farrell said he
did not see the meteor but from its description it appeared to
have been a bolide, a very large meteor that probably was seen
over six or seven states. Bolides are "the size of a walnut a!
nd on up," he said. Thanks to The Herald's 10/03/01 and Gerry -
FarShores News www.100megsfree4.com/farshores

OHIO FIREBALL

AKRON -- Beacon Journal's Carol Biliczky reports, "Everyone has
an opinion about the streak of light that shot across the sky
on October 2, 2001, at 7:30 PM. NASA spokesman from Glenn
Research Center, David DeFelice suggests it was a bolide -- a
big meteor that explodes into a shower of colors as it enters
the Earth's atmosphere. BRYAN -- The witness reports that, "On
September 29, 2001, myself and three other people saw seven
bright orange objects in the western sky just above horizon at
7:13 PM. We first noticed three objects that were vertical at
several thousand feet altitude. There were two more vertical
objects spaced the same distance and two more flying around
them with very bright orange tails. The five that were vertical
stayed in place for about seven minutes then they all
disappeared. They were the size of a dime at arm�s length.
Other witnesses were Jean Short, Shannon Ooten and Nick Favret
all from Bryan. Thanks to Skywatch International Inc.
skyopen@yahoogroups.com

GEORGIA MISSING TIME

ROSWELL -- The witness had just finished eating dinner at the
Waffle House on Cobb Parkway when he began to feel a tingling
sensation in his rear molar bottom tooth on September 1, 2001.
He states, "I quickly paid my bill and exited the building when
I noticed that the toothache was subsiding. I noticed a faint
humming sound in my ear and looked up, and noticed a tight
formation of five aircraft that did some remarkable things. The
three that were closest to me suddenly descended from about
25,000 feet to about 500 feet. The other two craft, in the
rear, simply disappeared. A bright beam began to shine down
from one of them. That is when I blacked out. I woke up 30
minutes later in a farm field ten miles away. I felt refreshed
and still had my receipt from the Waffle House in my pocket
that showed I had left the restaurant at 1:30 AM. What happened
during that 30-minute period is beyond me. I can't remember a
thing. Anyway, I found a nearby road and was lucky to fin! d a
farmhouse with a light on inside. The farmer gave me a ride
back to my car. It was then that I noticed the tooth was
missing. The strange thing was that there was no blood. It had
completely healed over as if I had never been born with a tooth
there in the first place. This is what prompted me to visit
your website. Looking at my arms and legs, I notice nothing
unusual except that there appears to be some kind of injection
mark with a lump about the size of a pea on my left bicep. It
doesn't hurt and it seems hard. My vision seems a little
blurred. In the back pocket of my jeans, I noticed a piece of
paper that has a type of hieroglyphics. Thanks to Peter
Davenport NUFORC

KENTUCKY UFO LANDING

FORT KNOX. On Sunday, October 7, 2001, Peter Davenport called
to inform me that he had just received a UFO report from
witnesses who claimed to observe a UFO landing nearby. Later,
the witnesses also saw the craft take off. They visited the
field and found evidence of a landing. Burn marks and
impressions in the ground were spotted.

MICHIGAN SIGHTING OF TRIANGLE WEDGE SHAPED OBJECT

COLON -- On September 11, 200I, the witness and his 9-year-old
son, saw a wedge shaped UFO at 10:10 PM. The boy called out
when he saw the craft, and his father thinking this odd as all
of the airports had been shut down. They saw a slow moving
craft with randomly flashing blue, red, and white lights all
along its edge. The father states, "We then ran outside to get
a better view. It was moving due west. As it came parallel to
our position I did an angle check by hand (a trick I learned in
astronomy class) I found that it was about 30 degrees above the
horizon over due south. I could not judge its distance as I
realized that I was not dealing with just any standard
aircraft, and these things could really be any size. I could
not detect any sound coming from the craft. As it neared the
western horizon I noticed that the only steady lights on the
craft were the two white lights, one on each rear point. This
is more proof that this type of craft exists. My theory is tha!
t they may have been interested as to why there were no other
aircraft in the air over one of the busiest air traffic
continents on this planet." Thanks to NUFORC.

WISCONSIN STRANGE LIGHTS

Bonnie M reports, "I got a telephone call at 8:40 PM of a
strange light in the sky September 26, 2001. I went outside and
to the northwest was a light in the sky about three times the
size of a star. It was below the top of tall trees. It stayed
in this position for a long time when it suddenly jumped higher
in the sky. I got my binoculars and the object had green, red
and white lights, which changed positions rapidly. Some of the
time it looked as if it was circular with all the lights in a
changing pattern. Then it seemed to jump all over and then
changed into a pattern of red, white and green lights that were
in single file and danced around and looked like a snake
dancing in the sky. It got lower, when two airplanes flew above
it. There was a definite look to the light pattern that lasted
from 8:40 to 9:42 PM. It was different from anything I have
seen. Thanks to Jenny Hoppe UFOWisconsin
http://www.ufowisconsin.com/county/reports/r2001 0926 winnebago
.html

ILLINOIS FOUR UFO OBJECTS IN SKY

CRESCENT CITY -- On September 4, 2001, driving home with my
8-year-old grand son the sun was setting at 7:00 PM, but it was
strange because it kept getting brighter. I am 50 years old and
I've never seen anything like this. The sun or a light got
brighter in every direction we turned, like it was getting
closer and closer to us. We had to hold a paper in front of our
eyes to be able to see the bright orange that radiated so
bright its hard to describe. Then pretty soon the bright light
was gone. An hour later, we noticed there was a cloud of pink
all around us just like when you�re in the fog. The bottom half
was very sharp blue and on top of it was very pink. We could
hardly see as it got closer so we stopped the car. The pink
cloud was still there along with the four ships. These were not
airplanes or vapor. They angled down and two looked a little
smaller with a design of some kind. They turned right and we
expected them to land. Fifteen minutes later, when I got! to my
house they were gone but we were very scared by the experience.
Thanks to NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

BOLINGBROOK -- On September 11, 2001, the area had lost
electrical power so the two families were outside and eight
witnesses spotted two flashing lights traveling north side by
side at 7:30 PM. After a few minutes they disappeared, but
within a couple minutes the lights began flashing again near
where they were first seen. The flashing lights were traveling
south, but would turn around and travel north. Sometimes they
faded to a red glow. This had gone on for over an hour when I
saw a steady red light traveling east much faster than any jet.
Within minutes I saw a steady white light traveling southeast.
My wife 2 children, neighbor and wife and his 2 children all
witnessed this. (NUFORC Note: The lights may have been
navigation lights on military aircraft patrolling the skies
over the U. S. PD)

MISSOURI LIGHT

ASH GROVE at about 10:00 PM I went out in the front yard on
September 11, 2001, and noticed a light at about 20 degrees
above the horizon. It was climbing at a high rate of speed,
then descended, and did ALL KINDS of loops, back and forth from
left to right, and hovered. I can see it out my window as I
type this. It's a dot in the sky, slightly brighter then a star
with an occasional red flash. Ira still going in circles, up
and down, and all different directions. Its now 10:47 PM and
its still there. All air traffic is grounded. Nothing we have
could do this. They're too fast with right angle turns. Thanks
to NUFORC.

NEBRASKA CIGAR METALLIC HOVERING OBJECT

OMAHA -- On September 21, 2001, the witness was driving down
84th street and noticed a metallic object in the sky near
Offutt Air Force Base about 8 miles away at 2,000 feet in
altitude. At first, he thought it was an "American Airlines"
aircraft on approach to Epply Air Field. However, the object
was not flying a normal approach. At 2:30 PM, the object
appeared to be hovering which peaked my attention, so I drove
to a higher elevation in town. As I drove closer the object
descended and disappeared from view. I don't believe it was a
normal jet; even a Harrier aircraft does not begin a descent
from that altitude.

OKLAHOMA FLYING TRIANGLE CHANGES DIRECTIONS INSTANTLY

WOODWARD -- On September 19, 2001, the witness was changing the
price signs on the gas pumps at the travel center when he saw a
huge silvery flying triangle. It was traveling at an impossibly
fast speed going east at 9:30 AM. It stopped in midair, without
slowing, became invisible for a couple seconds, and then sped
off west. It stopped again, without slowing, then dropped
straight down out of the sky then became invisible once more.
Following this, I heard a very loud sonic boom and the roar of
a jet, but did not see a jet. A short time after that, I heard
two more sonic booms. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC.

NORWAY UFO LANDS

OSLO -- On September 25, 2001, police in Helgeland, north
central Norway, had been getting a rash of UFO sightings, while
a woman in the northern town of Bod insists a small flying
object landed in her garden. Further investigation reveals that
a car traveling with a laser light system may have confused
witnesses. Thanks to Frode Stran and Gerry FarShores at
www.100megsfree4.com/farshore

JAPAN UFO FORMATION SIGHTING

KYOTO STATION -- On 22nd September, several strange objects
flying in formation over the Kyoto JR Station Building were
seen by at least 20 people. At the time, Jun-ichi Kato, a
leader of OUR-J (the Organization of UFO Research Japan), was
with a member, Tomokatsu Terayama and other several members
gathering for the regular skywatch meeting. Terayama initially
spotted these UFOs at the northeast sky around 12:10. Kato and
other meeting members verified the objects flying in some
formation, and Kato and Terayama succeeded in photographing the
UFOs. The eyewitnesses were not only OUR-J members, but some
tourists and the local residents. Seven objects were flying and
changing formation and each looked like it transformed from a
round to an oblong shape. Those observing the UFOs with their
binoculars said that these objects looked different from any
conventional objects. They suddenly changed direction to WSW
and disappeared.

URAWA -- An orange sphere was seen on September 23, 2001,
around 16:35, over the OUR-J branch group's skywatch meeting in
Urawa city (near Tokyo). At first, a member, Mayumi Ikeda (Ms)
spotted this UFO about 20 minutes after the meeting was
started. The object was hovering over their heads for a minute
or two and slowly moved to the south, and finally disappeared
as ascending. The object was photographed by OUR-J staff,
Nishikawa and the photo will be posted in the November OUR-J
journal at http://www.our-j.com// Thanks to Toshie Nakagawa
OUR-J ourj@mbd.sphere.ne.jp

MAPS AND UFO WAVES

Larry Hatch writes, "I have put up a new UFO map on the *U*
Website. This one is different from the others; it is an
overlay of three separate UFO wave years in the USA (1947,
1957, 1973) layered as separate colored sightings-dots. Each of
those waves taken separately seems to favor certain US regions
over others. What seems new, is that the three years taken
together, and excluding all other years, seem to blanket the
USA almost completely. Please click on:
http://www.larryhatch.net/WAVLAYER.html the only blank spots
are where population density is sparse to non-existent, almost
like some sort of plan. The same map is shown on George Filer's
website. http://www.filersfiles.com/ufo/ufodatabase.htm. George
was kind enough to have the map image color-enhanced for
clarity. Thanks to Larry Hatch. Editor's Note: It seems
unlikely that random reports would blanket the entire US unless
there was a plan. Many of the sightings are near US military
bases.



SEND GREETINGS TO OUR SHUTTLE EXPERT

Jeff Challender just came out of the hospital after a serious
operation (again) on his back. He needs some friendly support.
Please send get well soon prayers to Jefchall@worldnet.att.net.

DISCLOSURE PROJECT PRESENTATIONS

NEW YORK -- Disclosure presentation by Steven Greer, M.D., NYC
on October 26, with Video Taped Testimony of Military,
Government & Intelligence Witnesses Friday, Oct. 26, 7:30 PM:
The New York Academy of Medicine, Hosack Hall, 1216 5th Ave. at
103rd St., NYC $10 Facility Fee Donation. Parking: Academy, 50
spaces free after 5:30 PM, 1st come basis; Merit Parking, 107th
& Madison Ave. Doors open 6:30 PM  Disclosure Video
Presentation starts at 7:30 PM., Thanks to Jim Schilder
Disclosure volunteer

TORONTO -- Disclosure presentation by Dr. Steven Greer, Major
George Filer (ret.) Commander Graham Bethune (ret.) in Toronto
on Sunday, October 28 at the University of Toronto at 1:00 PM.

SAINT LOUIS MUFON CONFERENCE -- MUFON Conference at J.C.Penny
Auditorium, University of Missouri, St.Louis Campus, 9am-9pm.,
Nov.3rd.,2001, FLYING SAUCERS - HIDDEN HISTORY - 2001 (D-Day of
Disclosure) 1) Press Conference 2) Richard Dolan - U.F.O.'s and
the National Security State 3) Harold E. Burt - Flying Saucers
101 4) Dr.Carol Rosin - The Future of Space And
Extraterrestrial Intelligence 5) Stanton T. Friedman - Putting
The Pieces Back Together Again 6) Special Speakers Panel $10.00
per each of six sessions,or $50.00 before November for all.
1-800-489-4UFO, MUFON/MISSOURI,
P.O.Box#643,St.Charles,Mo.63302, < bwidaman@earthlink.net >,or
636-946-1394, The Airport Marriot Hotel $65.00 Thanks to: Bruce
Widamen State Director Missouri

BEFORE YOU BUY OR SELL A HOME SEE MY FREE REPORT All real
estate agents are not the same? Some real estate agents are
part timers and inexperienced while others are experts. When
you are selling or buying your home, you need to make sure you
have the best real estate agent working for you! Remember, the
majority of people do not know the right questions to ask, and
what pit falls can cause major problems. Picking the right real
estate agent can be a wonderful experience, and picking the
wrong one can be a big mistake! Find out, " What you need to
understand before hiring any real estate agent!" To get a free
report, e-mail Majorstar@Aol.com.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL for $30 per year by
contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended you for
membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2001 by George A.
Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the
files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its
editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared. These reports and comments are not necessarily the
official MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish
to keep your name, address, or story confidential. Caution,
most of these are initial reports and require further
investigation. Regards, George Filer








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                          Secrecy News -- 10/10/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:49:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:33:34 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/10/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
October 10, 2001


**      BUSH RESTRICTS LAWMAKER ACCESS TO CLASSIFIED INFO
**      PENTAGON RESTRICTS MEDIA CONTACTS
**      ANTI-TERRORISM LEGISLATION ADVANCES


BUSH RESTRICTS LAWMAKER ACCESS TO CLASSIFIED INFO

In an extraordinary exercise of official secrecy, President Bush
ordered six agency heads to withhold classified information from
all but eight designated members of Congress. The move
immediately drew sharp criticism from Congressional leaders.

In an October 5 memo on "Disclosures to the Congress," the
President said that "the only Members of Congress" who may be
briefed "regarding classified or sensitive law enforcement
information" are the Speaker of the House, the House Minority
Leader, the Senate Majority and Minority Leaders, and the Chairs
and Ranking Members of the House and Senate Intelligence
Committees.

"It's a reflection of the fact that our nation is now at war,
and the rules have changed," said White House press spokesman
Ari Fleischer yesterday. "It's a reflection of the reality that
disclosure of information in a time of war is far different from
an inadvertent disclosure at a time of peace. It could literally
mean the loss of lives of people who are embarking on missions."

Congress was quick to object and to assert its prerogatives,
threatening to suspend needed legislation until the restrictions
are eased.

"The defense bill is not moving until we are included," said
Senator Ted Stevens, the ranking Republic on the Senate
Appropriations Committee, as quoted in the Washington Times.

"I think it's an overreaction," said Senator Richard Shelby, who
is perhaps the most outspoken congressional critic of "leaks" of
classified information. Senator Shelby, speaking on CNN, said
that at a minimum, members of the armed services committee and
the defense appropriations subcommittee needed to be included in
classified briefings. He also volunteered that "I do believe
that there is too much information that is classified."

There are a number of categories of classified information that,
by statute, may be provided to only a select subset of
congressional leaders. These include the reporting of covert
actions (see 50 USC 413b) and the reporting of certain Pentagon
special access programs known as "waived programs" (see 10 USC
119).

In contrast to those narrow provisions, President Bush's
directive appears to overreach because it refers generically to
"classified information" and "sensitive law enforcement
information" (presumably related to the current anti-terrorist
campaign). Moreover, it completely excludes congressional
committees that have related oversight responsibilities,
including the armed services, foreign relations, judiciary and
appropriations committees.

The text of President Bush's October 5 memorandum to agency
heads is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/10/gwb100501.html

Excerpts from the October 9 White House press briefing at which
the memo was discussed may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/10/wh100901.html


PENTAGON RESTRICTS MEDIA CONTACTS

In further evidence of expanding official secrecy, the
Department of Defense has called upon its contractors to limit
the information that they publicly disclose and directed its own
acquisition officers to terminate contacts with the news media.

"I would ... like to stress, during this national emergency, the
importance of the use of discretion in all the public
statements, press releases, and communications made by your
respective companies," wrote Under Secretary of Defense E.C.
"Pete" Aldridge in an October 2 letter to major defense
contractors.

"As we all know, even seemingly innocuous industrial information
can reveal much about military activities and intentions to the
trained intelligence collector," Mr. Aldridge wrote. See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/10/aldridge.html

Deputy Assistant Secretary Darlene Druyun went beyond that to
actually prohibit Pentagon acquisition officials from speaking
with the media.

"Effective immediately, I do not want anyone within the Air
Force acquisition community discussing any of our programs with
the media (on or off the record)," Ms. Druyun wrote in an
October 4 email message to program officers. See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/10/druyun.html

These directives were reported and placed in context in an
article by Amy Butler in InsideDefense.com, reposted with
permission here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/10/id100901.html


ANTI-TERRORISM LEGISLATION ADVANCES

Senator Patrick Leahy, the Senate Judiciary Committee chairman,
yesterday described at length and somewhat apologetically the
Senate's version of the pending anti-terrorism legislation,
known as the "Uniting and Strengthening America Act of 2001."

He outlined the numerous changes that have been made to the
Administration's initial proposal in the course of Senate
deliberations to date, but noted that "This is not the bill that
I, or any of the sponsors, would have written if compromise was
unnecessary."

See Senator Leahy's October 9 remarks on the Senate floor here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/s100901.html

The pending Senate legislation, introduced October 4, is posted
here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/s1510.html

The American Civil Liberties Union criticized the Senate bill in
an October 5 press release saying it "poses significantly more
danger to civil liberties than the measure adopted earlier this
week by the House Judiciary Committee." See:

http://www.aclu.org/safeandfree/


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
<majordomo@lists.fas.org> with this command in the body of the
message: subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]


Secrecy News is archived at:
  http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691









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                   New Life On Mars Evidence 'Conclusive'

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:38:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:38:25 -0400
Subject: New Life On Mars Evidence 'Conclusive'

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_419740.html


New Life On Mars Evidence 'Conclusive'

A new book reveals Nasa scientists have found 'conclusive'
evidence life once existed on Mars.

Experts at the Johnson Space Centre in Houston say three
meteorites they have analysed contain fossilised bacteria.

They think life may have originated there four billion years
ago and then arrived on Earth.

The findings are revealed in the new book Mars: Inside The
Red Planet by Dr Heather Couper and Nigel Henbest.

Some of the best new evidence comes from the Nakhla
meteorite which landed in Egypt in 1911.

'Microfossils' inside it are said to be better than similar
controversial findings in meteorite ALH 84001 revealed in
1996.

The book quotes Nasa's Dr Everett Gibson as saying: "We
opened it in a clean lab and inside it found samples of clays
which are probably in the 600 to 700-million-year-old time
frame.

"Within these carbonates and clays are structures and
features that are even larger and better preserved than
those we saw in 84001."

Story filed: 09:58 Wednesday 10th October 2001









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                   Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:27:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:10:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Salvaille


 >Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 12:16:36 -0500
 >From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse

 >>Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:58:51 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse

 >>>Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 07:51:00 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >>>Subject: Same Song, Second Verse
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >Excellent comments John, you have hit the nail squarely on the
 >head.

 >This was also demonstrated by Ms. Keith's comment regarding the
 >Alien Autopsy CD review in her Sept. 28, 2001 post to UpDates.

 >>Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy

 >>"Had I known that this was gonna cause this big of stir,
 >>you can bet I would have asked sooner! <G>Nothing
 >>beats a good controversy. "

 >A private e-mail she made to myself and a couple others involved
 >in the CD review didn't deserve a civil reply.

 >To clear up that misguided thread and statements :

<snip>

Dave,

I must admit: you have a knack for spin.

I gather you are referring to an email sent by Rebecca on
Wednesday, September 26, 2001.

That email was  sent to the following individuals: Dave
Vetterick, Serge Salvaille, Jim Mortellaro, Neil Morris, Ed
Gehrman

Subject: Re: AA Autopsy Discussion

The email starts with a sentence explicitly forbidding
forwarding, copying or posting on the Internet.

But since (short of Cartesian arguments?) you have chosen to
spice your manure with insinuations, allow me to testify that
her email was pertinent, clear, to the point.

Allow me also to testify that the latest emails I received from
your group were, in every way, consistent with the attitude you
have displayed toward difference of opinion since this whole
thing started.


Serge Salvaille









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                  Re: Magonia Supplement No. 37. - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:30:08 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:12:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 37. - Connors


Ummmmm...Magonia? Sounds like a terrorist flower cell of some sort.

If it wasn't for the study of "Ufology," even with the wacko's,
weirdo's and preverts horning in, wouldn't Magonia be out of a
job, or at the very least, re-tooling to cover debunking
conspiracies regarding fairy wing plucking or something
important like that?

Further, if there was no personality of "Ufology," wouldn't
Magonia be just a single sheet off the Charmin roll written in
crayon?

Isn't the skeptibunker types even a tad bit grateful for the dog
and pony shows that provide the opportunity for them to huff and
puff and pretend to blow the whole house down?

Skeptibunkers... can't live with 'em and can't satisfy 'em, no
matter how hard one tries.

Go figure.


Wendy Connors









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                     Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Hall

From: "Richard Hall" <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:46:21 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:14:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Hall


 >Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:13:38 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez
 >Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse

 >>Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 21:26:17 -0700 (PDT)
 >>From: Rebecca
 >>Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: John Velez
 >>>Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:58:51 -0400
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Velez>

 >>>>Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 07:51:00 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>>From: Rebecca
 >>>>Subject: Same Song, Second Verse
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>>Errol

 >>>>I don't know what you might do with this - perhaps post it, if
 >>>>you think it interesting.

 >Hi Rebecca,
 >You wrote:
 >
 >>John!!

 >>Most of those comments above came from me and I certainly hope
 >>that you aren't directing your comments to me! If so, I'm gonna
 >>have a bone to pick with you.

 >No! What happened was; I had your post and Mortellaro's cued for
 >response and I confused 'em. No matter. What I said to Mortellaro
 >stands. I wouldn't retract a word of it. Whether it appeared in
 >the right context or not, I meant each and every word of what I
 >wrote to him and the mistake does not alter it's validity.
 >Actually, I'm killing two birds with one stone here because I
 >can explain (and apologize) to you, and I also know the 'docca'
 >will read this so I'm confident he will 'get the message.'

 >Sorry for confusion Rebecca. My mistake. ;)
 >And BTW, what do you mean by:

 >a. You're leaving.
 >b. You've never made a 'contribution.'

 >I hope you're not going anywhere. You've threatened to pack your
 >bags and leave regularly for years. This time sounds different
 >though. I hope you change your mind and choose to stick around.
 >I'd miss the hell out of you.

 >As for, "no contribution" that is something best left to your
 >peers to determine. My feeling has always been that your input
 >in all the discussions and debates over the years has been
 >invaluable. By your presence and participation you have been a
 >part of helping to form public awareness and opinion on several
 >of the more important issues facing us all as individuals and as
 >'ufologists.' (Whatever the hell the latter is.)

 >Stick around Bex, we need _more_ good, honest, no-nonsense
 >people like you, not fewer. And if you do walk away, don't walk
 >away feeling frustrated or let down. You can be proud of your
 >"contribution" to the day to day doings in ufology over the
 >last several years. :)

I second the emotion, Rebecca (also the name of one of my
paternal aunts). Well-informed critics and question-askers play
a very important role in so-called "ufology".


Dick










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                                 WTC Object

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:14:27 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:26:17 -0400
Subject: WTC Object


Please check out:

http://www2.justnet.ne.jp/~kiti/Ufo/wtc/wtc.htm

and scroll down (almost to the bottom) to the tiny video clip
showing some solid object flying from near ground-level on the
right to cross and behind the WTC, just before the second plane
impacts the second tower. The object can be seen continuing to
fly off toward the left. That baby is movin' out... whatever it
is. Got any ideas?

This looks like a very different angle from that of the FOX
picture, which made whatever that is, look like a projectile
exiting the 2nd building.


Sue Strickland










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                        Re: Filer's Files #41 - 2001

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:18:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 03:18:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #41 - 2001


 >Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:04:25 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com
 >Subject: Filer's Files #41 - 2001

 >Filer's Files #41 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
 >October 10, 2001, Majorstar@aol.com.
 >Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com,

 >UFO SIGHTINGS HAVE PICKED UP AGAIN IN THE US. Numerous UFOs were
 >observed around the US on September 11, the same day as the
 >World Trade Center attack after the grounding of all commercial
 >aircraft. UFOs were spotted in Massachusetts, New York,
 >Pennsylvania, Georgia, Ohio, Kentucky, Michigan, Wisconsin,
 >Illinois, Missouri, Nebraska, Norway, and Japan. US and Britain
 >attack Taliban in Afghanistan.

<snip>

Hi George, hi All,

 >NEW YORK A UFO SPHERE CHECKED US OUT WHILE WE FLEW MODEL
 >ROCKETS.

 >LYNBROOK -- The witness who is the father of three kids went
 >out for an hour to shoot off model rockets on September 2,
 >2001. They shot ten rockets with class B engines when the
 >father witnessed what appeared to be the wadding out of one of
 >the rockets at 5:35 PM. Using their binoculars, he realized the
 >object was nothing like they had ever seen. They were roundish
 >with a red light, but the red was not sharply defined. Then my
 >sons witnessed the light change from one big light, to smaller
 >lights. There were many small UFOs and two bigger ones. They
 >seemed to hover and then move quickly in different directions.
 >One even went in the opposite direction without slowing down.
 >Then after ten minutes, they started to disappear. The closest
 >one was shinny aluminum.

I have been 'on' about these buggers for years!

I currently have hours of video and a bunch of photos of these
'spheres.' These things are not 'weather balloons.' They have
the ability to stop, start, tumble in place, and move willfully
in any direction they choose. The movements are erratic. Bill
Hamilton of Skywatch can vouch for what I am saying. Many of us
have been recording as much of this activity as we can. It all
continues to go completely ignored. Has been for years.

These _same objects_ (Tom King calls them 'Hockey pucks' - which
is just what many of them look like,) have been photographed and
videotaped by many people across the country and around the
globe. Every time I read one of these reports about the round
objects (silver spheres and white discs) it sets me off
wondering when a knowledgeable 'anyone' is going to conduct some
kind of investigation into the nature of these 'objects.' I'm
still hoping to get the right recording equipment I need to
properly document these objects. A friend of mine is on the
case. Hopefully, along with some qualified and skilled people to
analyze any film or taped material, we 'might' finally begin to
find some answers. In many respects ufology is a 'do it
yourself' affair. Like astronomy 'used to be' in days gone by.
You get to do all the work yourself; take hard earned money away
from yourself and your family just so that you can finance your
activity; and then you get to enjoy the pleasure of getting your
ass whipped by your peers when you finally present your material
for review.

Ain't love grand?  ;)

Regards,

John Velez



                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
          "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."







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                  Re: Magonia Supplement No. 37. - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:36:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 03:21:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 37. - Aldrich


 >Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 20:58:53 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Magonia Supplement No. 37.

I have a few bones to pick here. See below.

 >MAGONIA Supplement

 >No. 37 5 October 2001


 >EDITORIAL

<snip>

 >LITERARY CRITICISM

 >Reviews by Peter Rogerson

 >Michael David Hall. UFOs: a Century of Sightings. Galde Press,
 >1999. �32.50

 >This is the first history of ufology and UFO cases by a
 >professional historian since David Jacobs's The UFO Controversy
 >in America a quarter of a century back. As a historian, Hall
 >declines to supply "explanations" for the cases, and notes the
 >problems with the ETH, though readers will detect in his
 >selection of cases, and commentary, a general pro-UFO bias.
 >However, he has little time for Roswell, pointing out that if
 >something as exotic as a spacecraft had been discovered in 1947,
 >it would have been months before anyone realised what they were
 >dealing with. In Roswell they knew what was up at first sight.
 >Hall hints that perhaps some sort of really big military,
 >possibly nuclear, secret was involved. He also has a few kind
 >words to say about Phil Klass.

 >The strength of this book is the detailed study of the US
 >government policy, and his use of the private papers of Ed
 >Ruppelt, which gives some idea of the complexities involved. Of
 >particular interest is his naming of a new candidate for the
 >'father of the ETH', the aeronautical engineer Alfred Loedding,

The Sign Historical Group interviewed Victor Bilek who worked
closely with Loedding. Bilek remembered Loedding as sort of a
chatter box. Bilek couldn't believe that Loedding was in on the
UFO investigations as he would constantly be spilling the beans
about what happened during the day.

However, official documents do indicate Loedding was deeply
involved. One 1947 document cited Alfred Loedding, Engineer in
charge of flying disc investigations. Other documents have
Loedding meetin with Dr. Carroll at HQ, AF Intelligence, to
discuss establishment of a UFO investigation project.

 >who seems to have been the driving force behind the infamous
 >Estimate of the Situation. The trouble is that no one since
 >Ruppelt has seen the Estimate, and we cannot say what the
 >arguments used were, though other Air Force documents from this
 >period suggest that the idea being floated around was that the
 >Martians had seen the nuclear bomb explosions and were coming to
 >see what was going on.

Roger, others have discussed the Estimate from claimed personal
knowledge. Fournet said he saw the Estimate. He did not have too
high an opinion of the document as his comments at the Ozark UFO
Conference indicate. Both Keyhoe and Hynek claimed to have seen
either the Estimate or summaries of it.

 >Hall has met with members of Loedding's
 >family, and his son claims to have remembered investigating
 >landing reports back in the 1940s. Is this a false memory? If
 >not this is very interesting indeed.

There were several "landing" reports in 1947-48. Your own
research gave me information on several. The AF investigated
some of these. See Joel Carpenter's comments on the Midland
Fireball:

http://www.project1947.com/dow.htm

 >The case reports should be very useful, and there is much early
 >material for the ufologists to get their teeth into. One
 >low-level report from Circleville, Ohio now appears on the basis
 >of the report here to be a CEIII, and there are a lot of cases,
 >which if they occurred exactly as reported would be very
 >puzzling indeed. Looking at these stories reminds us of how easy
 >it was in the early 1950s to argue for the ETH. Hall points out
 >that Loedding and others who supported the ETH never had any
 >positive evidence in its favour; they argued from elimination.
 >There is evidence of an exotic technology, it isn't ours, it
 >isn't the Russians, it must be the ETs (which usually meant the
 >Martians).

 >Looking at these stories today, what strikes us is that they
 >don't so much represent what we in 2001 would think of as an
 >advanced technology or of the work of ETs, but a kind of
 >advanced 1940s and 1950s technology, a mixture of speculative
 >ideas about revolutionary aerospace designs and 1930s comic-book
 >ideas of 'spaceships'. This is the 'advanced technology' of the
 >world before satellites and computers, and remote imaging.

 >Though Hall notes the role of the Cold War from time to time, I
 >was surprised that as a historian he really paid very little
 >attention to the cultural climate. For example, it seems obvious
 >now how much war- time experience and imagery pervades these
 >stories. The flying saucers behave in many ways like
 >ultra-high-performance German or Japanese fighters, flying in
 >formation, engaging in dog fights, etc. Just how many of the
 >pilot UFO witnesses had been on active service in the war, and
 >how many had been trained either explicitly or implicitly to see
 >an enemy aircraft behind any ambiguous light in the sky and
 >react accordingly? We don't know the answer to that question.

 >Is it a coincidence that as the War receded into memory, UFO
 >reports become more tenuous, more exotic and "paranormal". Hall
 >notes how ufologists now have become diverted into the pursuit
 >of crashed- saucer rumours and wild abduction stories, because
 >there are no good classical UFO cases around. (It also might be
 >that while access to the Project Blue Book files is relatively
 >simple for anyone willing to fork out for the microfilms, access
 >to the records of civilian UFO groups is next to impossible.)

 > One should be able to recommend this book as an excellent
 > source of good-quality UFO reports, and when I first obtained
 > it, that's what I intended to do, but reading through it gave
 > me some serious doubts. For I have come to doubt the accuracy
 > of the accounts given, because in a number of cases that I know
 > well, the accounts here are inaccurate; indeed the report of
 > the Hill case is one of the most inaccurate I have come across.
 > Were the reports compiled from memory, reconstructed from
 > hastily written notes or what? Also, though Hall does introduce
 > more foreign reports than most American UFO writers, I came to
 > the conclusion that his knowledge of the subject was not all
 > that deep. Perhaps one can only evaluate it after being deeply
 > involved for decades.

 >That caveat means that two of the most important cases in the
 >book, apparent EM-type cases from before the modern UFO wave,
 >need to be re-examined in the original sources. US readers
 >should try to get hold of a magazine called Sky Trails for June
 >1933 and check the story of Colin Murphy who is reported as
 >claiming that, in late September 1926, seventy miles from Salt
 >Lake City his DC4 biplane was 'buzzed' by a sort of wingless
 >cylinder, ninety feet long and eight to ten feet thick. Every
 >time the object came within 150 ft his engine misfired, forcing
 >him to make an emergency landing only to see the object shoot
 >away.

These publications are very hard to trace down. I suspect these
are lore unless actual copies can be found.

 >British researchers need to get access to History of the III
 >Fighter Squadron RAF, London Press, 1947, for the following
 >story from 5 July 1933, when at night a flight of four Hawker
 >Fury fighters encountered a "huge circular light" which dropped
 >down from above into the centre of their formation. Captain
 >Nigel Tomkins's engine cut out forcing him to crash land.
 >Another pilot, Bruce Thomas, came even closer, suffering not
 >just an engine failure but burns to his hands and face. Clearly
 >if the book can be traced and confirms that this account is
 >reliable, then all efforts should be made to track down flight
 >logs and other original documentation, check the local press for
 >the period, and even try to track down descendants of those
 >involved. [A preliminary check with the library at the RAF
 >Museum, and the British library, has failed to trace this book.
 >JR]

Glad to know someone has made an attempt to check this story.

 >British resesarchers might also like to try to find something
 >more about a vague reference by Ruppelt to an incident on 16-17
 >January 1947, in which two fighters intercepted a violently
 >moving object over England.

What is more interesting is that Ruppelt indicates that there
were a series of such reports.

 >Despite the errors, and the price, this is an important book,
 >and one that ufologists should add to their collection.

Jan Aldrich









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                  Pyramid-Shaped UFO Seen In Northern Chile

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:40:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 03:27:23 -0400
Subject: Pyramid-Shaped UFO Seen In Northern Chile


Pyramid-shaped UFO seen in Northern Chile

 From Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
ufomiami@prodigy.net <mailto:ufomiami@prodigy.net>
10-10-1

A gigantic UFO was seen at the beach of Cavancha, in the
northern Chilean city of Iquique. The sighting took place on
October 5th of 2001. The eyewitnesses were a taxi driver and two
of his passengers. They claimed that the UFO was about 300 yards
long and shaped like a pyramid.

Carlos, a local taxi driver, was on his way to drop off two
passengers to the coastal city of Iquique. It was around 19:45
PM. He was driving on a highway that runs between the beach and
the local airport. Suddenly, he saw what appeared to be some
lights coming from the south side of the beach. He initially
thought it was an airplane because of the proximity to the
airport. Nevertheless, he was very surprised to see that the
object got closer and closer, perhaps too close for any ordinary
aircraft - as it hovered at about 1 kilometer from the highway.

Carlos kept driving. As he passed a curve, he was able to view
the object form a slightly different angle. As he got even
closer, he began to notice that around the object, it had red,
yellow and green flashing lights, as well as a white light at
the top. He also noticed that it was shaped like a giant
pyramid.

"It almost looked like a giant stealth bomber. However, this
object was about 300 yards in length, so it was not a plane. As
it got closer, I began to accelerate the car. Suddenly, a very
bright light came out from the bottom of the object,
illuminating the entire beach. It was scary; the light was so
strong that we were able to see the waves in the ocean. When I
turned to see my passengers, they were speechless. We were all
astonished", he said. The cab driver claimed that the sighting
lasted about 20 minutes.


Jaime Ferrer R.
Calama UFO Center
Translated by Mario Andrade










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                   Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Vetterick

From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:23:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 03:40:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Vetterick


 >Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 21:49:30 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 12:16:36 -0500
 >>From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse

<snip>

 >>Excellent comments John, you have hit the nail squarely on the
 >>head.

 >>This was also demonstrated by Ms. Keith's comment regarding the
 >>Alien Autopsy CD review in her Sept. 28, 2001 post to UpDates.

 >>>Subject: Re: Caution - AA Autopsy

 >>>"Had I known that this was gonna cause this big of stir,
 >>>you can bet I would have asked sooner! <G>Nothing
 >>>beats a good controversy. "

 >>A private e-mail she made to myself and a couple others involved
 >>in the CD review didn't deserve a civil reply.

 >And as you and everyone else who received knows, I didn't want
 >one or expect one.

 >But the private email to you and others was only sent after you
 >sent me an email that would have been an insult to anyone who
 >has half a brain. It was my opinion after reading that email
 >that you were trying to act as a moderator for UFO UpDates.

 >>To clear up that misguided thread and statements :

 >>The CD's of the AA film and a Web site where reviews and
 >>comments are being posted now, will be made available to
 >>EVERYONE in a few weeks. We'll make a public announcement and
 >>strongly encourage open debate and additional discussion.

 >Oh I thought Neil made the website public a few weeks ago when
 >he posted this:

 >"So why not start "elsewhere" to begin with and avoid the
 >hassle, if folk _are_ that interested, pop in and have a browse
 >round Dave's site and even ask for a set of CD's and join in,
 >though we _will_ have to start covering our costs where the CD's
 >are concerned."

 >The complete post can be found here:

 >http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/2001/sep/m28-003.shtml

 >>Initial participation was by invitation only. Logistically, and
 >>because some of the participants requested confidentiality and
 >>e-mail privacy, the initial discussion is taking place
 >>privately. However, all this is being recorded, and documented.
 >>Save for those participants who want their info and comments
 >>removed, everything else will be made available when concluded
 >>in a few weeks.

 >IOW, it could be said that people might see only what you want
 >to them see. How do we know which people didn't want their
 >comments made public and which one y'all didn't want to make
 >public?

 >>Those original invitees who elected not to honor this
 >>temporary confidentiality request have been removed
 >>from the current private discussion.

 >That's will big of you guys. From everything I've seen posted on
 >this List save for Jim M's comments, no one understood your
 >confidentiality aggreement. But he's hardly a credible source,
 >IMO.

 >You darn tootin' I sent you an email not worthy of a reply, but
 >only because you requested something of me that was ridiculous.
 >Your misleading statements concerning this incident doesn't help
 >your credibility any at all.


Rebecca, you are not being truthful. No rational thinking person
could conclude anything I said was an attempt to act as
moderator for UpDates.

The message you're trying to distort for whatever reason, was
the 3rd or 4th time we asked a specific person to respect the
privacy of the other 40 or so people participating. He
deliberately violated this request.

In that message the only part addressed to you said:

"REBECCA....I'm sure you understand why we must handle it this
way. I can only ask that you respect the request for privacy and
not make any further posts or give out the web site address. If
you resolve your PC difficulty I'll keep the offer open to send
you a copy & have you participate. When all discussion is done
we intend to make the web site public. Key here is that those
who don't want their name and comments shown will have that
choice before hand. DO I HAVE YOUR AGREEMENT ON THIS
CONFIDENTIALITY?"

This is perfectly clear. I was simply asking you not to
exasperate the error and problem created by one very
inconsiderate person in the group. As you said, what a
ridiculous request to make of you.

Your crude use of profanity and insults in your private reply to
me can't be justified by anything I said in the entire e-mail
much less the above small portion addressed to you.

It seems you have problems with a lot of people on this list,
reflecting back on the thread involving Stanton, among others. I
understand why now, and ask you can add me to that list.

Dave









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                    Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Rebecca

From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 00:50:40 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 06:51:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Rebecca


 >Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:13:38 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse

 >>Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 21:26:17 -0700 (PDT)
 >>From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >>John!!

 >>Most of those comments above came from me and I certainly hope
 >>that you aren't directing your comments to me! If so, I'm gonna
 >>have a bone to pick with you.

<snip>

 >Sorry for confusion Rebecca. My mistake.  ;)

Thank you. That clears that up and that means I have no bones to
pick with you! :)

 >And BTW, what do you mean by:

 >a. You're leaving.

Heading out? Moving on? Blowin' the joint? Hasta la vista, baby?

 > b. You've never made a 'contribution.'

Not in a truly significant way. Not in a way that I would have
liked, although I never set out to make a contribution. I was
just curious. One thing led to another, as things are wont to
do, and all this sudden I'm spouting off about all sorts of
things.

 >I hope you're not going anywhere. You've threatened to pack your
 >bags and leave regularly for years. This time sounds different

Moi? Threatened to leave before? That doesn't sound like me. I
typically don't make threats.

 >though. I hope you change your mind and choose to stick around.
 >I'd miss the hell out of you.

It's not like I'm gonna die or anything. Well, I'm not planning
on it. I'll be around but in like a really deep lurk. Who knows
maybe something will spark my interest again and I'll be back
spouting off once more.

 >As for, "no contribution" that is something best left to your
 >peers to determine. My feeling has always been that your input
 >in all the discussions and debates over the years has been
 >invaluable. By your presence and participation you have been a
 >part of helping to form public awareness and opinion on several
 >of the more important issues facing us all as individuals and
 >as 'ufologists.' (Whatever the hell the latter is.)

Why thank you for that. I love to give input and I like debate,
even when I'm not participating. But I can't agree with your
assertion that helped form public opinion. Not the way I define
public. I see the public as the people out there who aren't on
this List, who don't think about UFOs. I haven't affected them
at all. And what truly frightens me is that someone like Steven
Greer and his ilk might affect those folks _someday_ and I
really think that threat needs to be dealt with. I've thought
about that for years. I've commentated on it before. But what
have I done to change that? Absolutely nothing.

 >Stick around Bex, we need _more_ good, honest, no-nonsense
 >people like you, not fewer. And if you do walk away, don't walk
 >away feeling frustrated or let down. You can be proud of your
 >"contribution" to the day to day doings in ufology over the last
 >several years.  :)

Thank you John. That means so much - it really does. I don't
feel let down as much as I feel I have failed. Not that I ever
set out to accomplish anything, but I just think there is
something that this large group of folks on UpDates could do to
get the word out and I don't know why we haven't done it before.

I forget who - forgive me, whoever you are - but someone the
other day remarked about the cost of the List. Jeez. That was
kind of sobering. It seems like such wasted energy.

For someone who is in a pretty darn good mood, I sound really
pessimistic. I think there is a future for this field, but we
had better get a grip on the reins and start doing something
productive to get the message to the public. Before someone else
does. Unfortunately, I don't have the magic pill on how to do
it.

I will leave frustrated. But I also leave enriched. What
wonderful people you all are (well, most of you, anyway!).
Thanks to this subject, I can say I have friends all over the
world. I've traveled all over North America and to the UK all
because of my thirst for knowledge in ufology. For that I am
thankful.

Errol, you can't know how much I value our friendship. What a
wonderful service you have given to ufology. This List is the
best thing going. A damn sight better than almost all magazines,
radio programs (except SDI, of course), and/or TV shows devoted
to the subject. Keep up the good work.

And I must add a word of thanks for Glenn Campbell (not the
singer <G>) for archiving everything from UpDates!

I'm not quite finished here yet. I need to see how a few things
wind down.


Thanks again John.
Mucho ((((HUGS))))

Rebecca










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                   Australian UFO National Conference 2001

From: John. W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 04:26:53 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 06:54:09 -0400
Subject: Australian UFO National Conference 2001


List and EBK,


Just a quick reminder.

The Australian UFO National Conference 2001 will take place in
Brisbane, Queensland this weekend on the 13th and 14th of
October 2001.

So if your in the area, get along. Its a full program put on by
one of Australia's best UFO societies, UFO Research (Queensland)
[UFOR(QLD)]


The keynote speakers are -

                         ***

DR MARTIN GOTTSCHALL (Brisbane)

"TIME AS A KEY TO UNDERSTANDING UFO’s"

Strange ideas about time have been discussed amongst scientists,
in science fiction and by UFO researchers as well. It has now
become possible to link some of these ideas to the equations of
the theory of relativity, which have been carefully and
accurately verified by experimental studies. This means that we
can be considerably more confident about the actual existence of
such things as reverse time (meaning time progressing
backwards), zero time (meaning time standing still) and
different rates of time (meaning different levels or dimensions
of reality). These ideas help us to begin to understand how
UFO’s travel in space, where they might be coming from, what
their interest in us and our planet might be, and outlines the
shape of our own future.

                         ***

MIKE FARRELL (Port Macquarie)

"FORBIDDEN UFO FOOTAGE - WHAT THE PUBLIC SHOULD SEE!"
(Mike will be showing footage on both days)

A review of the most recent and compelling videos to reach the
public domain in 2001. Includes highlights of films and programs
from around the world and new NASA UFO footage. These images
have not been shown in Australia before! The proof is in the
detail!

                         ***

BRYAN DICKESON (Sydney)

"UFOs: HOW LITTLE THE AUSTRALIAN PUBLIC KNOWS AND HOW
MUCH DOES IT NEED TO KNOW"

The Australian public's view of UFOs has been dominated by
events in the United States for the last 50 years. Australian
media ignore major local contributions and local UFO
organisations have always had major problem getting their
findings to a larger audience. Meanwhile, much excellent
information available publicly to researchers is being
overlooked. A brief historical review of four, important,
identifiable strands of investigation since the 1950s, from
"accessible" public groups, "official" RAAF investigations,
special Defence projects, to organisations based outside
Australia.

                         ***

BRENDA BUTLER (Melbourne)

"TAKING BACK THE POWER"

Brenda has been facilitating a UFO support group for
experiencers (abductees) for the past 8 years. This came about
due to her own conscious memories beginning to surface 11 years
ago. She found that their was no help in the community, at the
time when she desperately needed it and so the idea of forming a
group arose from being involved in a Family violence support
group for women, which Brenda originally participated in and
then co-facilitated for many years. After seeing the often
sudden and profound changes which occurred in women involved in
the group it led her to believe that maybe the same could happen
for abductees.

                         ***

KEVIN ROBB (Adelaide)

"DIMENSIONAL INTERACTION IN SOUTH AUSTRALIA"

In 1995 at Waitpinga beach in South Australia, Kevin Robb viewed
an object in the sky and experienced a period of missing time.
Looking for answers to his experience led Kevin to contact the
UFO Research group in South Australia. Progressively, Kevin
became spiritually aware and developed a technique to aid others
with multi-dimensional and extraterrestrial interference. Kevin
shares his experiences and how that experience led him on to the
healers path.

                         ***

SHERYL GOTTSCHALL (Brisbane)

"HYPNOSIS AS A TOOL FOR UFO RESEARCH"

Hypnosis is an often used tool to retrieve information about
alien abduction experiences but just how valid is it? Since many
theories abound from the information gleaned, it would be wise
to understand hypnosis more comprehensively to give credence to
the information extracted. This presentation gives an overview
of hypnosis, discusses memory, memory retrieval and it's
pitfalls, hypnotic phenomena and possible hypnotic techniques
mimicked by aliens during the abduction experience, and what
that may mean.

                         ***

GARY OPIT (Mullumbimby)

"UNDERSTANDING EXTRATERRESTRIALS - A Biologist's
Perspective"

This talk, based on the latest scientific discoveries, will show
how ludicrous and dangerous it is to imagine that we have in any
way descended from extraterrestrial and why there has been no
extraterrestrial interference whatsoever during the lengthy
evolution of life on this planet. However it will also reveal
why extraterrestrials must colonise living planets, how our
planet was colonised by extraterrestrials, where they dwell and
why they are here.

To understand extraterrestrials, how they think and behave, we
have to be able to understand ourselves. We have to remember
that we are the aliens to every other potentially occurring life
form throughout the universe. The physical features and
behaviour of aliens portrayed in science fiction movies are
almost always inefficient. Natural forces will have shaped the
inhabitants of other worlds to be efficient, graceful and
harmonious members of complex ecosystems. We, and they, are not
individual entities, but are, or were, embedded within and
utterly a part of, global living organisms. This talk will
reveal the nature of the universal ecosystem of which all are a
part.


                         ***

Just an update about the upcoming National Conference in
Brisbane on the 13th and 14th of October.

* John Auchettl (PRA Melbourne)
  "Detecting The Language & Imprints Of The Invisible World"

* Suzanne Hansen (NZ)
  "Is it time? - Corroboration or collaboration."

* Karim Hashim-Jones (Brisbane)

* Mary Rodwell (West Australia)

are no longer making a presentation at the conference, due to
other commitments.

UFOR(Qld) now have a writer, speaking, who uses his pen name
Elron for anonymity. Elron has been abducted by more than one
type of extra-terrestrial from around the age of eight and has
complete recall of all his experiences.


                         ***

For more information contact:

Sheryl or Martin Gottschall on (07) 3376 1780
or Tino Pezzimenti on (07) 3256 3330
or email gottscha@in.com.au

UFOR(Qld) Home Page:
http://briz.net/uforq/

                         ***

Yours Sincerely,

John. W. Auchettl
Director - PRA

Karen. Lambert
Supervisor - PRA


PRA WEB:
http://members.aol.com/praufo/PRA1/Pra1.htm



Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170
Australian & Asia UFO
1961-2001 - 40 YEARS OF RESEARCH SERVICE









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                    Position Statement On Alien Abduction

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 06:22:47 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 08:39:27 -0400
Subject: Position Statement On Alien Abduction


Right out of the gate I find that the alien abduction scenario,
from its beginning, scares the hell out of me. Enough so, I have
never written about it or wanted to do deep research into it.
This is not easy for a crypto-aeronautical researcher and
historian to admit openly.

That said, I read the literature and the posts from those who
have admitted to such experiences. Even though I do so with a
critical eye and intellect, I cannot dismiss it as some type of
wacko movement within the field. Yet, I have seen no evidence
that it ties directly with crypto-aeronautics in the
conventional sense. It seems, on the whole, to lie on the
borders of it with channels through it. It is pretty scary and
harrowing stuff. I will elaborate a tad on this from both an
historical view and a personal view.

In the beginning, 'Ufology' was a pure avenue of adventure. An
enigmatic phenomena burst upon the military and public scene.
Initially, reports of contacts with the pilots of these strange
nuts and bolts craft were dismissed, on the whole, by the
military and civilian research groups. It took quite a while for
NICAP, CSI, etc. to move in an intellectual position regarding
landing cases with humanoid contact and rightly so, for several
reasons.

First, the Contactee movement began and tried to attach itself
to mainstream ufological research. Adamski, Derenberger, Menger,
etc., made life miserable for those who were attempting to
approach ufology from a scientific and academic viewpoint in an
attempt to understand what the phenomena actually entailed. It
was very much like the scene out of the movie, "Contact," where
Dr. Ellie Arroway is riding through the wacko crowd seeing Elvis
impersonators singing "Viva Las Vega," etc.

The contactees really muddied the waters of ufology by jumping
way ahead of the game without proof or documentation. Suddenly,
people were claiming they had traveled to Saturn, Venus, etc.,
and that the space brothers were going to save humanity, etc.
The same kind of B.S. today under a different wrapper, i.e., the
Disclosure Project, etc. The really hardcore example of putting
the cart before the horse, so to speak.

On the one side of the coin were the common sense ufologists.
They moved carefully and cautiously. But make no mistake here.
We were not totally skeptical or ready to dismiss the phenomena
like the scientific community did when they defaulted on their
responsibilities to explore a new phenomena. However, the real
ufologists of the day were between scientific resistance and the
contactee movement. Ufology, as a unique and interesting field
of study was in the position of the proverbial middle road,
taking neither a blind eye, nor going off the deep end into
fanaticism. Fifty plus years later, nothing has changed in this
regard. But, ufology itself, has evolved, even under these most
trying of circumstances.

 From the historical position, first came the disc phenomenon,
followed by the humanoid reports. By 1957, a case regarding an
illiterate farmer in the boondocks of Brazil named Villas-Boas,
was to be the impetus for mainstream ufology to reconnoiter and
face the possibility that there may be some type of 'alien'
contact beginning that went beyond aerial dimension. I will let
you all go to your UFO literature to read the full details of
this case and I'll give a short description here. Villas-Boas
had been working in his fields when he observed a flying disc
land. He was apprehensive, but not actually scared when he
approached this craft. To make a long story short, he was taken
inside the craft by humanoids and was sexually propositioned by
a humanoid female type. From all practical standpoints, this is
the beginning point of the alien abduction scenario.

What made the case so viable as to move mainstream ufological
research, was the fact that it was done in an isolated area, not
done for publicity and the person traveled hundreds of miles to
get medical help from Dr. Olavo Fontes. Thus, from this single
case alien abduction entered into the center ring of ufology. It
had no connection with the woo-woo contactee movement on the
fringes of ufology. It was a hardcore case with far reaching
consequences.

Today, various researchers have attempted to grapple with the
abduction scenario and formulate possible hypotheses to
consider. However, even after all these years, evidence still
remain distant to either explain or prove what is actually going
on and what to do about it. But, even now, the alien abduction
scenario muddies the waters of ufology, as did the contactee
movement of the 1950s and 1960s and the Disclosure Projects
dancing around in extraterrestrial drag today.

For those who approach the alien abduction scenarios from a
practical standpoint, there is little doubt that two shifts have
developed within the field of ufological studies. First is the
possibility of alien contact, but without documented proof and
secondly, that a few people seem to have been contacted against
their will by what can only be considered an alien phenomena.
Beyond these assumptions all else is total speculation.

There are, however, some real intellectual 'bumps' that exist
within this scenario. The most important of these is the very
scale as to how many people have been abducted. With estimates
ranging in the millions, without documentation, combined with
cases from unreliable personalities, etc., there is little doubt
that the vast majority of alien abduction cases are bogus and
probably arise from other avenues such as, wannabee factors,
wishful thinking, etc.

Thus, from this researchers personal perspective and experience,
I assume that there is something to the abduction scenario and
that some people, indeed, have experienced something that seems
connected, in a bizarre and obtuse way, to the ufological
phenomenon. I read the posts from the more centrally-grounded
abductees on this List and continue to keep an open mind.
However, as much as I hate to state it, there is nobody in core
ufology that can answer the abductees questions with
quantitative factuality. But, as a researcher, I can certainly
empathize with an experiencer's feelings of impotence regarding
the meaning or reasons for their experiences.

Ufology is a science that is still forming. It has a long way to
go. However, abductees must assist the research from a middle
ground position if there is to be any hope in charting,
documenting and understanding such a far-reaching element of
ufology and their place in it.

The difference between a skeptic and a ufologist is very wide.
The solid ufological researcher remains skeptical, but open to
possibilities and probabilities and works to document the
position. The skeptic lacks the elements of possibility and
probability and works from the position that nothing is possible
or probable due solely to its enigmatic factor. Because of this
difference, abductees feel trapped in the middle. What is
important is that abductee refrain from taking the fanatical
position and not allow the skeptibunker (Pelicanist) position to
feel that you don't count in ufological research. You do count
and seasoned, knowledgable/experienced researchers have not
abandoned you... but, we take the middle road forward and foray,
periodically, down the side roads in an attempt to remain
balanced.


Wendy Connors











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                               AA Enigma News

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 08:56:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:18:52 -0400
Subject: AA Enigma News


EBK & list:

Forgive me if this has been posted previously. There is some
interesting news on the alleged alien dissection film:

http://www.beyondroswell.com/roswell/AA%20Update.htm

Regards,

Terry









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   Oct > Oct 11

              Re: Position Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:12:49 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:34:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Position Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez


 >From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Position Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 06:22:47 -0600

Hi Wendy, hi All,

 >Right out of the gate I find that the alien abduction scenario,
 >from its beginning, scares the hell out of me. Enough so, I have
 >never written about it or wanted to do deep research into it.
 >This is not easy for a crypto-aeronautical researcher and
 >historian to admit openly.

The honest admission you have made is what IMHO separates the
'wheat from the chaff' in terms of intellectual honesty.
Something which is sorely lacking in many of those associated
with "ufology." Your openness and honesty id refreshing and
appreciated. Wish we could all see more of it among those who
investigate the UFO phenom.

 >That said, I read the literature and the posts from those who
 >have admitted to such experiences. Even though I do so with a
 >critical eye and intellect, I cannot dismiss it as some type of
 >wacko movement within the field. Yet, I have seen no evidence
 >that it ties directly with crypto-aeronautics in the
 >conventional sense.

That is one of the things I have been talking about since day
one. Although I hesitate to use the analogy because it opens up
its own 'can of worms' it is only the "Betty and Barney Hill"
type encounters involving a "UFO" _and_ its "occupants," (which
also includes the Travis Walton case, the Charlie Hickson
Pascagoula, Miss. case, the Allagash four case, etc etc etc)
should even be considered by "UFO" researchers. That is an
opinion that has caused many "abductees" to call me a "traitor"
and a "skeptic" (of all things) in the past.

You are quite correct however that _many_ "abductee" reports
have nothing to do with a direct encounter/contact with a UFO. I
have been saying for years that _all_ of those cases should be
set aside in favor of focusing on the ones which involve: a
fully awake/alert individual who was 'going about their
business' at the time of the "contact/sighting," cases involving
multiple witnesses/experiencers, and at all times only cases
that involve close-up contact/interaction with a UFO(s) and
their occupants.

A big part of the problem has been that "UFO" abduction has not
been clearly defined by anyone who does research. Ergo, it has
become defined (what an "abduction" is,) by the experiencers
themselves. Whatever anyone reports, whether it be a "dream," or
"imagination," or whatever, it has all become lumped together
with the reports involving a close-up encounter with a UFO which
also includes contact with the occupants. That fully conscious
and direct kind of contact is what defines a "UFO" abduction.
All the rest of those reports that begin with, "I was sleeping
in my bed" although they may be true and valid, should all be
put on a 'back burner' in favor of investigating the more
immediately relevant "UFO/occupant contact" cases.

 >Re: Villas-Boas you say: "It was a hardcore case with far reaching
 >consequences."

My 'point' (above) precisely!

 >Today, various researchers have attempted to grapple with the
 >abduction scenario and formulate possible hypotheses to
 >consider. However, even after all these years, evidence still
 >remain distant to either explain or prove what is actually going
 >on and what to do about it. But, even now, the alien abduction
 >scenario muddies the waters of ufology, as did the contactee
 >movement of the 1950s and 1960s and the Disclosure Projects
 >dancing around in extraterrestrial drag today.

I don't think that is the abductees fault as much as it is a
problem caused by those who report on the phenomenon as
'proponents' of it, rather than as objective investigators.
Sure, there are a lot of abductees out there (myself included)
who broadcast details of these encounters in public. But they
don't hold a candle to the amount influence created by best
selling books on the subject that have been written and
disseminated world-wide by folks like Budd Hopkins, David
Jacobs, Ray Fowler, Dr. John Mack etc.

I would blame them (if 'blame' is a proper term) before I'd
blame the experiencers.

 >For those who approach the alien abduction scenarios from a
 >practical standpoint, there is little doubt that two shifts have
 >developed within the field of ufological studies. First is the
 >possibility of alien contact, but without documented proof and
 >secondly, that a few people seem to have been contacted against
 >their will by what can only be considered an alien phenomena.
 >Beyond these assumptions all else is total speculation.

I agree with the latter but not with the former. There _is_
'documentation' in the form of physical marks, scars, and
foreign objects, as well as ground trace evidence, multiple
witnesses etc., that are associated with these
encounters/reports.

But yes, in terms of what has been proven or established,
most of what goes on is _pure_ speculation. Something I
have strived to avoid assiduously over the years.

 >There are, however, some real intellectual 'bumps' that exist
 >within this scenario. The most important of these is the very
 >scale as to how many people have been abducted. With estimates
 >ranging in the millions, without documentation, combined with
 >cases from unreliable personalities, etc., there is little doubt
 >that the vast majority of alien abduction cases are bogus and
 >probably arise from other avenues such as, wannabee factors,
 >wishful thinking, etc.

I agree. Although I would hesitate to venture a guess as to the
percentage. I think that using a term like "vast majority" is
a bit extreme. It probably reflects a personal bias in thinking
more than it does representation of 'hard' or 'proven fact'.
Truth is, until somebody begins to investigate, and through the
process of elimination actually determines how many such cases
are bogus, we just won't know how many are real or not.

 >Thus, from this researchers personal perspective and experience,
 >I assume that there is something to the abduction scenario and
 >that some people, indeed, have experienced something that seems
 >connected, in a bizarre and obtuse way, to the ufological
 >phenomenon.

See my first response above. :) I have had such an encounter
Wendy. An uncomfortably 'close-up' encounter with a UFO followed
by hours of missing time and a trip to an emergency room the
next morning, in order to tend to the physical sequelae of the
encounter. It just doesn't get anymore 'close-up and personal'
in terms of being UFO related than that. I am not alone. Budd
has shelves full of such reports. 'Something' (and I don't claim
to know 'what') _is_ going on. That 'something' involves
non-human beings, unconventional flying craft, and it leaves
behind _physical_ evidence. Until someone actually investigates
these cases all we will ever have is guessing, personal opinion,
and speculation.

We can't say "there is no evidence" because no one has taken the
time to determine whether what is already in hand actually
comprises valid or 'acceptable evidence'. Even the most basic of
research has yet to be performed. Yet everyone always feels free
to expound on the abduction phenomenon as if they actually knew
what the hell they were talking about.

Talk about "muddy water!"

The 'gold' needs to be sifted from the 'lead' among the many
reports. Then, those cases which lend themselves to
investigation need to be (actually, thoroughly) investigated.
Maybe then, and only then, will anyone really be able to speak
on the subject with any semblance of authority or reliability.

 >I read the posts from the more centrally-grounded
 >abductees on this List and continue to keep an open mind.

I'd like to think that I am considered one of those.

 >However, as much as I hate to state it, there is nobody in core
 >ufology that can answer the abductees questions with
 >quantitative factuality. But, as a researcher, I can certainly
 >empathize with an experiencer's feelings of impotence regarding
 >the meaning or reasons for their experiences.

The search for "meaning" for me, is secondary to helping get a
real investigation started. People need to know what is
happening, and they needed to know it _yesterday!_ There is an
urgency to all of this that few are able to (genuinely)
appreciate. What many of us have been through is _no_joke_. The
implications for our future and the future of our children are
monumental.

 >Ufology is a science that is still forming. It has a long way to
 >go. However, abductees must assist the research from a middle
 >ground position if there is to be any hope in charting,
 >documenting and understanding such a far-reaching element of
 >ufology and their place in it.

That's the reason I got into the public arena in the first
place! To make myself available to interested researchers as
well as others who were having similar experiences. When I
consented to participate in NOVA it was with the assumption that
some independent research people were actually going to study
our cases and report on them. I volunteered to take a polygraph,
undergo psychological and physical evaluation all in order to
help eliminate mental illness or intentional deception as a
cause for my reports. I was willing to allow them to do anything
short of intrusive surgery in order to help substantiate our
claims.

Budd armed himself with a couple of his more bullet-proof people
and allowed NOVA to have complete access to us, and to his
records. You'd think that anyone really interested in doing
responsible science-reporting would have jumped all over an
opportunity like that. Like the rest of the research community
they failed to 'do the job'.

Same thing happened when I joined this List. I made myself
available to any and all serious research people who may have
wanted to investigate an abduction case for themselves. To 'have
a go' at one of Budd Hopkins cases even. I've been here for six
years and I'm still waiting.

Sorry but, you can't blame us for not being willing to
cooperate. I'm the exception that disproves the rule. The fault
lies mostly with the research community itself. It has fallen
flat on its pontificating face when it comes to investigating
reports of UFO abduction. Like I said, everybody has something
to say, but few actually know what the devil they are talking
about. Until the research community actually accepts some
responsibility for properly investigating abduction reports, all
we're going to get is more 'uneducated' opinion.

 >What is
 >important is that abductee refrain from taking the fanatical
 >position and not allow the skeptibunker (Pelicanist) position to
 >feel that you don't count in ufological research. You do count
 >and seasoned, knowledgable/experienced researchers have not
 >abandoned you... but, we take the middle road forward and foray,
 >periodically, down the side roads in an attempt to remain
 >balanced.

Yeah, well if you look over to your left a little you'll see me
out there in the middle of the road beside you. Those who know
me best will vouch for how hard I work at staying grounded,
open-minded, and willing to learn and to work. Now, if we can
find some researchers who are willing to do like-wise... we'll
be in business. :)


Regards,

John Velez


            A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
            www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                 johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
   "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









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   Oct > Oct 11

              Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzlez Manso

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:29:15 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:44:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzlez Manso


 >From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Position Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 06:22:47 -0600

<snip>

 >By 1957, a case regarding an illiterate farmer in the
 >boondocks of Brazil named Villas-Boas, was to be
 >the impetus for mainstream ufology to reconnoiter and
 >face the possibility that there may be some type of 'alien'
 >contact beginning that went beyond aerial dimension

<snip>

 >What made the case so viable as to move mainstream ufological
 >research, was the fact that it was done in an isolated area, not
 >done for publicity and the person traveled hundreds of miles to
 >get medical help from Dr. Olavo Fontes.

Not true!

Vilas-Boas was _not_ an illiterate farmer in the boondocks of
Brazil. His family even had a tractor. He was able to read and
write. And he was studying Law. Some time later he would became
a lawyer.

Surprisingly, he didn't discuss his abduction withanyone in his
family, only with the local chemist who suggested he to write
to journalist Joao Martins who was writing about flying saucers
in a magazine, received even in those boondocks.

They exchanged several letters (unpublished) and even small
wooden models made by Vilas Boas himself of the craft and the
aliens. Finally, even though he insisted that his work was
essential at home, he accepted the money raised by Dr. Fontes to
pay for the journey to Sao Paulo, several months later, where he
met with Martins and Fontes and told his story. Martins decided
not to publish it and Vilas Boas was visibly disappointed. He
was _not_ looking for the medical help of Dr. Fontes.

He returned to his life, and was very much surprised when
several years later a team from a Brazilian UFO Group (SBEDV)
located and reached him. At first, he refused to speak with them,
but when they complained of their long voyage, he surrendered
and retold his story. The team did not interview any member of
his family or the chemist.

It seems, so say some Brazilian ufologists, that he was a
bachelor who had to live in the same house with his newly
married brother, so maybe it was just a sexual fantasy or a tall
tale on the chemist that backfired. The truth is that the case
was never investigated in situ, nor additional material
collected.


Yours,

Luis R. Gonzlez Manso








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   Oct > Oct 11

                   Re: Magonia Supplement No. 37 - Clarke

From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:16:50 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:46:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 37 - Clarke


 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 37
 >Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:36:58 -0400

 >>Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 20:58:53 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Magonia Supplement No. 37

 >>British resesarchers might also like to try to find something
 >>more about a vague reference by Ruppelt to an incident on 16-17
 >>January 1947, in which two fighters intercepted a violently
 >>moving object over England.

 >What is more interesting is that Ruppelt indicates that there
 >were a series of such reports.


Hi Jan,

As you probably are aware, I have been investigating the radar
reports by RAF Chain Home stations during January 1947 for some
years. 12 months ago I made a major breakthrough in that I was
able to interview a Fighter Controller who was involved in the
radar tracking of a UFO over the North Sea on 16 January 1947.
This resulted in a dramatic chase across the North Sea involving
a Mosquito night-fighter diverted from an on-going exercise.

As a result of a lot of good luck and using contacts at the MOD
I was able to access a previously unknown RAF file on the
incidents that revealed a major operation was mounted to track
and intercept the "ghost planes" referred to by Ed Ruppelt in
his 1956 memoirs. Not only was there a series of radar trackings
but fighter stations were on alert for a period of week,
resulting in a number of scrambles involving the RAF's Mosquito
night-fighter squadrons. I can reveal that the sightings began
in late in 1946 and continued almost until the beginning of the
'flying saucer era' in May 1947.

Eventually I was fortunate enough to trace and interview the
pilot of a Mosquito that was involved in one of the incidents
and whose navigator tracked the "unidentified high flying
aircraft" (his words) over Norfolk on the fighter's AI radar.
The pilot, who retired at the rank of Group Captain, has a clear
memory of the bizarre incident and a logbook entry that
demonstrates this was the first recorded "interception" of a X-
(ie unidentified) track mounted by the RAF since the end of
hostilities in 1945.

The January 1947 sightings over Eastern England and the North
Sea are a fascinating bridge between the 'ghost rockets' and the
'flying saucer' era, and were treated with great seriousness by
the British Air Ministry.

The contents of the RAF file and the interviews with those
involved in the radar trackings and interceptions will be
published early next year in my book with Andy Roberts: "Out of
the Shadows."

In the meantime, I hope the above will be sufficient to whet
your appetite!


Best wishes

Dave Clarke









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   Oct > Oct 11

                    Secret Rendlesham Documents Released

From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:26:19 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:51:06 -0400
Subject: Secret Rendlesham Documents Released


MINISTRY OF DEFENCE RELEASE "TOP SECRET" RENDLESHAM DOCUMENTS

Five documents relating to the alleged UFO Landing at RAF
Woodbridge in 1980 are no longer a secret following a landmark
decision by the MOD's Director of Information Exploitation.

In March 2001 the MOD agreed to release the contents of their
file following an application by David Clarke under the Code of
Practice on Access to Government Information.

The decision marks a further breakthrough in our understanding
of the events in Rendlesham Forest.

Five documents were with-held from the response under exemptions
to the code, 2 under Exemption 1 (national security) and 3 under
Exemption 2 (internal discussion and advice to ministers less
than 30 years old).

We immediately lodged an appeal against the decision and an
internal review has now been completed. A senior MOD official
has now released the two documents that were with-held on the
grounds of national security.

The five documents - described by UFO Magazine as "top secret" -
are:

1. A letter from the MOD to RAF Watton (Eastern Radar) and the
SOC station, RAF Neatishead, dated 26 January 1981 requesting a
statement on radar observations on 29 December 1980.

2. A reply from the Commanding Officer of RAF Neatshead to MOD
(Ops) GE dated 3 February 1981 describing the results of checks.

3. An internal minute from an MOD official [Pam Titchmarsh], to
a Minister's Office (John Stanley, Ministry of Defence)
submitting a draft response and an accompanying background note
in respect of a Parliamentary Question tabled by Sir Patrick
Wall MP, answered on 24 October 1983.

4. A duplicate copy of the first page of (3) above.

5.  An internal Minute from a MOD official to a Minister's
office, submitting a draft response and accompanying background
material in respect of A letter to the Secretary of State for
Defence, Michael Heseltine MP from David Alton MP, which had
enclosed a letter from one of Mr Alton's Constituents.

The released documents and a copy of the judgement will be
posted on the www.flyingsaucery.com Website.

The documents contain no evidence that a cover-up of a UFO
landing ever existed.

We can reveal that the two documents with-held on the grounds of
"national security" do not constitute a 'smoking gun' - they
simply illustrate how claims of a cover-up arise from secrecy
for the sake of secrecy, part of an established tradition in
Britain.

What they reveal is that the RAF were making checks on radar
records for 29 December 1980, following information supplied by
Lt Col Charles Halt in his memo to the MOD.

As we now know the actual date of Halt's sighting in Rendlesham
Forest was the night of 27/28 December 1980. This implies
incompetence and complacency on behalf of the MOD, who did not
see fit to make further inquiries into the details they had been
supplied by Halt.

The correct date was subsequently confirmed by the former
Commanding Officer of RAF Watton who has described his role in
an exclusive interview in June 2001 before any other UFOlogist
was even aware of the MOD file release.

The retired Squadron Leader told us: "I recall the incident well
[as] I was on duty at the time it occurred. I can confirm that
the call came from Bentwaters RAPcom. They requested that we
scan the radars for any radar targets in their area; there were
NONE. They reported flashing lights in the Rendlesham Forest
area, outside the airfield runway [and that] the base police
were investigating the incident."

The officer was on duty on the same night as a civilian radar
operator Nigel Kerr who claims he saw a "blip" on his screen
above the base runway coincident with the report from
Bentwaters. The blip disappeared after several sweeps of the
radar. Kerr's CO dismisses this claim, saying that no such
observation was reported to his Controller at the time, who
oversaw the ATC screens at the joint military/civilian facility.
This is a fact confirmed by the CO in contemporary note in the
MOD file, dated 26 February 1981 that reads:

      "On the night of the reported sighting our controller on
      duty was requested to view the radar; nothing was observed.
      The facts are recorded in our log book of that night."

He added that the T84 analogue radars at Watton frequently
detected spurious echoes that behaved exactly as Kerr described.
The lack of radar corroboration was confirmed by Halt in a 1997
interview when he said:

      "[I] called the command post, asked them to call Eastern
      Radar, responsible for air defence of the sector..twice
      they reported that they didn't see anything.."

The Watton CO also confirmed that he personally ordered that
all radar tapes - both from 27/28 December and surrounding dates
- should be impounded for examination. This was not unusual but
entirely consistent with MOD procedure following reports of
unusual sightings. In January, 1981 the evidence was removed by
a joint RAF/USAF team from the Military Air Traffic Organisation
(MATO) who apparently found some of the tapes were faulty.

This appears to be the basis of the rumour that USAF
intelligence officers "confiscated" radar tapes from Watton
shortly after the sightings. The CO's evidence can finally lay
this myth to rest.

Claims have been made that the release of the MOD file is
entirely as a result of pressure placed upon the Ministry by
Lord Hill-Norton and Georgina Bruni. Credit is due to both, but
this claim is not correct.

The facts are that during the summer of 2000 the MOD invited us
to submit specific requests for UFO case files under the terms
of the Code of Practice. The Rendlesham File was just one of a
number of files closed under the 30 year rule that were
subsequently requested and released; their contents will be
revealed in our book, "Out of the Shadows: The British
Establishment, UFOs and the Cold War", published early next
year.

My request for the Rendlesham File was submitted in February
2001 and on 22 March an MOD official wrote as follows:

      "[as a result of your request]. there are a number of
      papers that were generated between 1981 and 1983 and later
      assembled on one file, along with correspondence received
      after 1983 from members of the public.Briefings to
      Ministers in respect of PQs asked on the subject since 1983
      are placed on another File. On the file containing papers
      on the alleged incident in Rendlesham Forest, there is an
      internalminute that appears to summarise the extent of MOD
      investigation and draws the conclusion that has been used
      in all subsequent briefings.

      "We are content to photocopy the documents from that file,
      which consists of somewhere in the region of 70 enclosures.
      This, along with some sanitising and review will be
      undertaken free of charge following your application under
      the Code of Practice."

This proves that our application was made and processed
following MOD procedure that was entirely independent of Lord
Hill-Norton who received the file some time after we did.

We wish to pay tribute to all those who have contributed to the
research into the Rendlesham case, regardless of their opinions
and personal approach to the subject. That includes Georgina
Bruni, Jenny Randles, James Easton, Ian Ridapth, Nick Redfern
and others who have all contributed to our knowledge of the
Rendlesham forest mystery in their own way.

Keep watching

www.flyingsaucery.com

for further revelations.

Happy trails,

David Clarke and Andy Roberts












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   Oct > Oct 11

                        How Much Lower Will Greer Go?

From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@Ms.UManitoba.CA>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:49:35 CST
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:00:46 -0400
Subject: How Much Lower Will Greer Go?


I can't believe this....

Using the events of September 11th to garner public support for
Greer's "Disclosure Project"?

Tsk.

------- Forwarded message follows -------
From:                   "Randy Kitchur" <randykitchur@hotmail.com>
To:                     Chris_Rutkowski@umanitoba.ca
Subject:                Campaign For Disclosure - Toronto
Date sent:              Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:22:00 -0500

<snip>


CAMPAIGN FOR DISCLOSURE - TORONTO




We Need Your Help

to DISCLOSE the SECRETS

that could have

PREVENTED the SEPT 11th TRAGEDY

Hear how Classified Projects are
withholding Technologies that could
Replace our need for Oil

Campaign for
Disclosure

presentation with Q&A by
Steven M. Greer, M.D.
with guest witnesses invited
plus Video Taped Testimony of Military,
Government, & Intelligence Witnesses

<snip>

-----

Chris Rutkowski
Media Relations Coordinator
Public Affairs Department
University of Manitoba
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada  R3T 2N2
  voice:  (204) 474-9514
e-mail:  Chris_Rutkowski@umanitoba.ca







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   Oct > Oct 11

                  Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:13:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:05:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Clark


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:29:15 +0200

 >>From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Position Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 06:22:47 -0600

 >It seems, so say some Brazilian ufologists, that he was a
 >bachelor who had to live in the same house with his newly
 >married brother, so maybe it was just a sexual fantasy or a tall
 >tale on the chemist that backfired.

An admittedly every specialized fantasy, involving among - other
erotic elements - vomiting. I think the rest of us will count
that among the less probable explanations for Villas-Boas's
story.

To me the case is interesting as one that, long before Budd
Hopkins's investigations brought the concept into the abduction
controversy, suggests the presence of hybrid beings. At least it
is consistent with that hypothesis, as are the surprising number
of early CE3s (unremarked on by any ufologist, as far as I know,
until I discussed it in my UFO Encyclopedia) wherein human or
near-human entities are described.


Jerry Clark









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                  Re: How Much Lower Will Greer Go? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:09:26 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:09:33 -0400
Subject: Re: How Much Lower Will Greer Go? - Hall


 >From: Chris Rutkowski
 >Subject: Campaign For Disclosure - Toronto
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:49:35 CST

 >I can't believe this.... Using the events of September 11th to
 >garner public support for Greer's "Disclosure Project"?

 >Tsk.

 >------- Forwarded message follows -------

 >From: "Randy Kitchur"
 >To: Chris_Rutkowski@umanitoba.ca
 >Subject: Campaign For Disclosure - Toronto
 >Date sent: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:22:00 -0500

 >CAMPAIGN FOR DISCLOSURE - TORONTO

 >We Need Your Help

 >to DISCLOSE the SECRETS

 >that could have

 >PREVENTED the SEPT 11th TRAGEDY

 >Hear how Classified Projects are withholding Technologies that
 >could Replace our need for Oil [Etc.]

Chris,

You ask how much lower Greer & Co. will go. How low is a snake's
belly?


Dick










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                          Secrecy News -- 10/10/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:49:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:12:02 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/10/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
October 10, 2001


**      BUSH RESTRICTS LAWMAKER ACCESS TO CLASSIFIED INFO
**      PENTAGON RESTRICTS MEDIA CONTACTS
**      ANTI-TERRORISM LEGISLATION ADVANCES


BUSH RESTRICTS LAWMAKER ACCESS TO CLASSIFIED INFO

In an extraordinary exercise of official secrecy, President Bush
ordered six agency heads to withhold classified information from
all but eight designated members of Congress.  The move
immediately drew sharp criticism from Congressional leaders.

In an October 5 memo on "Disclosures to the Congress," the
President said that "the only Members of Congress" who may be
briefed "regarding classified or sensitive law enforcement
information" are the Speaker of the House, the House Minority
Leader, the Senate Majority and Minority Leaders, and the Chairs
and Ranking Members of the House and Senate Intelligence
Committees.

"It's a reflection of the fact that our nation is now at war,
and the rules have changed," said White House press spokesman
Ari Fleischer yesterday.  "It's a reflection of the reality that
disclosure of information in a time of war is far different from
an inadvertent disclosure at a time of peace. It could literally
mean the loss of lives of people who are embarking on missions."

Congress was quick to object and to assert its prerogatives,
threatening to suspend needed legislation until the restrictions
are eased.

"The defense bill is not moving until we are included," said
Senator Ted Stevens, the ranking Republic on the Senate
Appropriations Committee, as quoted in the Washington Times.

"I think it's an overreaction," said Senator Richard Shelby, who
is perhaps the most outspoken congressional critic of "leaks" of
classified information.  Senator Shelby, speaking on CNN, said
that at a minimum, members of the armed services committee and
the defense appropriations subcommittee needed to be included in
classified briefings.  He also volunteered that "I do believe
that there is too much information that is classified."

There are a number of categories of classified information that,
by statute, may be provided to only a select subset of
congressional leaders.  These include the reporting of covert
actions (see 50 USC 413b) and the reporting of certain Pentagon
special access programs known as "waived programs" (see 10 USC
119).

In contrast to those narrow provisions, President Bush's
directive appears to overreach because it refers generically to
"classified information" and "sensitive law enforcement
information" (presumably related to the current anti-terrorist
campaign).  Moreover, it completely excludes congressional
committees that have related oversight responsibilities,
including the armed services, foreign relations, judiciary and
appropriations committees.

The text of President Bush's October 5 memorandum to agency
heads is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/10/gwb100501.html

Excerpts from the October 9 White House press briefing at which
the memo was discussed may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/10/wh100901.html


PENTAGON RESTRICTS MEDIA CONTACTS

In further evidence of expanding official secrecy, the
Department of Defense has called upon its contractors to limit
the information that they publicly disclose and directed its own
acquisition officers to terminate contacts with the news media.

"I would ... like to stress, during this national emergency, the
importance of the use of discretion in all the public
statements, press releases, and communications made by your
respective companies," wrote Under Secretary of Defense E.C.
"Pete" Aldridge in an October 2 letter to major defense
contractors.

"As we all know, even seemingly innocuous industrial information
can reveal much about military activities and intentions to the
trained intelligence collector," Mr. Aldridge wrote.  See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/10/aldridge.html

Deputy Assistant Secretary Darlene Druyun went beyond that to
actually prohibit Pentagon acquisition officials from speaking
with the media.

"Effective immediately, I do not want anyone within the Air
Force acquisition community discussing any of our programs with
the media (on or off the record)," Ms. Druyun wrote in an
October 4 email message to program officers.  See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/10/druyun.html

These directives were reported and placed in context in an
article by Amy Butler in InsideDefense.com, reposted with
permission here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/10/id100901.html


ANTI-TERRORISM LEGISLATION ADVANCES

Senator Patrick Leahy, the Senate Judiciary Committee chairman,
yesterday described at length and somewhat apologetically the
Senate's version of the pending anti-terrorism legislation,
known as the "Uniting and Strengthening America Act of 2001."

He outlined the numerous changes that have been made to the
Administration's initial proposal in the course of Senate
deliberations to date, but noted that "This is not the bill that
I, or any of the sponsors, would have written if compromise was
unnecessary."

See Senator Leahy's October 9 remarks on the Senate floor here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/s100901.html

The pending Senate legislation, introduced October 4, is posted
here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/s1510.html

The American Civil Liberties Union criticized the Senate bill in
an October 5 press release saying it "poses significantly more
danger to civil liberties than the measure adopted earlier this
week by the House Judiciary Committee."  See:

http://www.aclu.org/safeandfree/


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@lists.fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:
    subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

    unsubscribe secrecy_news [your email address]
Secrecy News is archived at:
    http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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             Re: Position Statement On Alien Abduction - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:30:43 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:14:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Position Statement On Alien Abduction - Connors


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:29:15 +0200
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzlez Manso

<snip>

 >Not true!

Just goes to show you that even I screw up speaking from old
memories of cases, instead of looking them up before putting my
foot into my mouth. <G>

You are absolutely correct, of course, Luis. However, the
overall concept of what I was using the Villas-Boas case as a
reference, still stands.

I appreciate the butt kick.


Wendy Connors









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                  Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:47:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:16:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:29:15 +0200

 >>From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Position Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 06:22:47 -0600

 ><snip>

 >>By 1957, a case regarding an illiterate farmer in the
 >>boondocks of Brazil named Villas-Boas, was to be
 >>the impetus for mainstream ufology to reconnoiter and
 >>face the possibility that there may be some type of 'alien'
 >>contact beginning that went beyond aerial dimension

 ><snip>

 >>What made the case so viable as to move mainstream ufological
 >>research, was the fact that it was done in an isolated area, not
 >>done for publicity and the person traveled hundreds of miles to
 >>get medical help from Dr. Olavo Fontes.

 >Not true!

 >Vilas-Boas was _not_ an illiterate farmer in the boondocks of
 >Brazil. His family even had a tractor. He was able to read and
 >write. And he was studying Law. Some time later he would became
 >a lawyer.

<snip>

Hola Luis,

You wrote:

 >The truth is that the case was never investigated in situ,
 >nor additional material collected.

A truthful statement like that one should make _anyone_ who
calls themselves a UFO "researcher" hang their heads in shame.
The first known (reported) case of UFO abduction and it was
never investigated on the spot where it happened, nor properly
recorded or documented. I'd laugh if it wasn't so sad.

The real shame is; it's typical!

Recuerdos,

John Velez

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









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                Re: Campaign For Disclosure - Toronto - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:07:54 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:19:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Campaign For Disclosure - Toronto - Velez


 >From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@Ms.UManitoba.CA>
 >Subject: Campaign For Disclosure - Toronto
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:49:35 CST

 >I can't believe this....

 >Using the events of September 11th to garner public support for
 >Greer's "Disclosure Project"?

 >Tsk.

 >------- Forwarded message follows -------
 >From:               "Randy Kitchur" <randykitchur@hotmail.com>
 >To:                 Chris_Rutkowski@umanitoba.ca
 >Subject:            Campaign For Disclosure - Toronto
 >Date sent:          Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:22:00 -0500

 ><snip>

 >CAMPAIGN FOR DISCLOSURE - TORONTO

 >We Need Your Help

 >to DISCLOSE the SECRETS

 >that could have

 >PREVENTED the SEPT 11th TRAGEDY

 >Hear how Classified Projects are
 >withholding Technologies that could
 >Replace our need for Oil

 >Campaign for
 >Disclosure

 >presentation with Q&A by
 >Steven M. Greer, M.D.
 >with guest witnesses invited
 >plus Video Taped Testimony of Military,
 >Government, & Intelligence Witnesses

 ><snip>

 >-----

 >Chris Rutkowski

Hey Chris!

You sound surprised my brother. Did you by any chance 'expect'
any other kind of behavior? C'mon amigo, this is the same guy
that had to be threatened with legal action for ripping-off and
claiming credit for the work of other ufologists. (You know who
you are!)  ;)

The first time I ever heard of him was five years ago when some
Scottish researchers made a heart rending plea to American
ufologists (right here on this List) to assist them in
recovering an original copy of videotaped UFO, -that Greer had
ripped off and flown home with. (All done with limos and a lear
jet that was supplied by Larry Rockefeller.)

That was the first time I got to meet and speak with the good
doctor. I called him on the phone and asked him if there was any
truth to the claims of the Scottish researchers. Greer claimed
it was all a big misunderstanding. It was months before those
sorry sods got their video back. And that was after -weeks- of
in-fighting on this List between Dr. Greer and his now deceased
assistant and several members of the UpDates List. (Sorry,
forget her name. I don't mean to bad mouth the dead but I do
recall clearly however that she was one nasty mouthed customer
though. Just ask John Stepkowski.  Sorry John, didn't mean to
open any 'old' wounds.  ; )

That was also when he told me that 98% of all alien abductions
were being carried out by clandestine agents within our own
government. That he gotten that information from a high ranking
general from the Pentagon who he could not name. I asked him for
-three years- to substantiate that outrageous claim. He never
has. In the meantime, I'm sure that statement managed to scare
the crap out of more than one or two abductees.

Then there's CSETI.

Almost $400.00 US per year so you can run around in some one's
cow pasture with a flashlight vectoring in UFOs. It's a freakin'
scam man.

Now he uses the disaster which ended thousands of lives and has
shattered thousands more as a part of one of his many "fund
raising" pitches, and you are surprised.

I'm not. Every time I start to think that this guy can't sink
any lower, he always manages to drain a little more water out of
the pool.  :)

Get some rest Chris. This sorry excuse for a human being isn't
worth losing any shut-eye over. Whoever wrote the copy for the
above, whether it was Greer or someone else, (although he _did_
approve its use apparently) needs to be prayed for. In a case
like the above, prayer would be the only remaining hope for such
a person. Or maybe an alien rectal probe. For certain, this kind
of behavior is clearly way beyond any 'human' help or therapy.

"Hey Dr. Greer! Let's Limbo for moola-boola! How loooooow will
you go?"  <LOL>

I'd like to lock Greer in a room, for 5 minutes, with several
copies of his fund raising ad and few of the larger, male,
family members of those who died on the 11th. I'm sure they'd be
willing to give him 'something'. <VBEG>

But hey man, at least Greer is "doing something"! Right?


Regards,

John Velez

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









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                  Re: CCCRN News: Art and Humour - Anderson

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:54:28 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:26:09 -0400
Subject: Re: CCCRN News: Art and Humour - Anderson


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

October 11, 2001

_____________________________


ART AND HUMOUR


Something a little different, a couple links for your interest
and enjoyment:

New Zealand Sand Art

http://circles.orcon.net.nz/indexc.html

(Thanks to ilyes for this one, this unknown artist is quite
talented!)


Spud Uncovers the Mystery Behind the Crop Circles

http://www.interlog.com/~chapman/crop.htm


____________________________


The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which investigates the crop circle
phenomenon and other possibly related phenomena in Canada,
creating a liason between researchers, farmers, the public, the
media and scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma

CCCRN News is the e-news service of CCCRN, providing the latest
news, reports and updates, sent free to your e-mail.

To subscribe to CCCRN News, send a blank e-mail to:
cccrnnews-subscribe@topica.com

CCCRN News Archive:
http://www.topica.com/lists/cccrnnews/read


CANADIAN CROP CIRCLE RESEARCH NETWORK

Main Office:
202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

Provincial Branches:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/contacts.html

Circle Phenomena in Canada 2001:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/circlescanada01.html

Fields of Dreams Webcast Radio Show:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/fieldsofdreams.html


� Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2001

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   Oct > Oct 12

                  UK Government Helps Fund Crop Circle Film

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:21:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:21:13 -0400
Subject: UK Government Helps Fund Crop Circle Film




Source: BBC News

http://news.bbc.co.uk?Query=&@216.92.12.172/sci/tech/newsid_158000/158544.stm

5 October, 2001, 15:17 GMT 16:17 UK


UK Government helps fund blockbuster crop circle film

After The Sixth Sense and Unbreakable the next release from
director M Night Shyamalan is Signs.

The film is the third major release from Shyamalan, who received
huge accolades for The Sixth Sense, one of the most celebrated
films of 1999.

Currently in production in Pennsylvania, Signs won't be in
cinemas until next Summer. As with his previous two releases, at
this stage little is know about the plot, but it has been
revealed that the film will focus on the crop circle phenomenon.
"No aliens will appear in the movie, although they will be heard
and communicate through the language of mathematics" said
Shyamalan.

The film stars Mel Gibson who will play the farmer on whose land
the crop circles appear. Joaquin Phoenix who was recently
nominated for a best supporting actor Oscar for his portrayal of
the Emperor in Ridley Scott's blockbuster Gladiator will play
Gibson's brother  and 12 year old Rory Culkin younger brother of
Macaulay will play one of Gibson's children.

Crop circles started to appear in the mid seventies and
developed over the years from simple circles into complex
pictograms. The high number appearing in Wiltshire has been
linked with the presence of ancient remains such as Stonehenge,
Avebury and Silbury Hill.

The film is being part funded along with Walt Disney pictures by
the British Film Council which has a three-year budget of �150m
from government and lottery funds to "shamelessly" build on
links with Hollywood studios, said the Council's chief executive
officer, John Woodward.<P>

Self-proclaimed crop circle hoaxer John Lundberg said: "it's
ironic that the government are funding a crop circle film, as
researchers often accuse them of running a campaign via the
media to discredit crop circles."








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                 Re: Position Statement On Alien Abduction -

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:36:32 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:47:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Position Statement On Alien Abduction -


 >From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Position Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 06:22:47 -0600

Dear Wendy,

Thanks for the vote of confidence (if you intended your remarks
toward me). I tend to rely too much on others to mirror an image
of myself that I would hope others have of me, but which I feel
is often slightly shewed toward the belief that I've 'got it
together.' I don't. I'm sure you will understand better after
reading this peculiar tome in response to your position
statement about abduction.

Several people on this List have helped to keep me 'in line',
'down the middle of the road', to remind me to take this whole
thing a little less seriously than I would otherwise tend to do.
Now, I can add you to that list, Wendy. Your previous email
"Subject: Getting A Grip" dated Tue, 9 Oct, had me laughing out
loud... "Let me see if I have this X'y Packie Thingy
correct... Hmmmmmm, which to choose?" I needed that.

In your most recent email, 'Position Statement on Alien
Abduction', you stated on a more serious tone:

 >Right out of the gate I find that the alien abduction scenario,
 >from its beginning, scares the hell out of me. Enough so, I have
 >never written about it or wanted to do deep research into it.

Yep. I'm of the same mindset. Are you thinking about dipping
your toe in the muddy waters now? You may change your mind after
reading some of the stuff I have to say. Speaking for myself,
insatible curiosity keeps driving me to analyze the _whys_, to
look for some rational answers. After all these years, I've only
found a few (I think). I think that's probably just exactly why
no one, including myself as an 'experiencer', wants to talk
about it much, for fear of 'muddying the waters' more than they
already are. Besides, talking and writing about these
experiences only brings to the forefront the terror we initially
experience with each visit, as well as the 'flash-back' memories
that continue to occur over the years, sometimes adding insult
to injuiry.

So, to talk about this is more difficult than you can imagine.
I've tried to analyze this to a fault, as you will plainly see.
I am ambivalent about _why_ the memories of these experiences
are allowed to come in little pieces like they often do for so
many abductees, including myself. Of course, if I believe 'they
allow' this to occur, the assumptions here are several: 1) that
'they' have control over what and how much we are able to
recall; and, 2) for the ETs to 'allow' abductees to continually
obsess over past experiences, sometimes serves to deepen the
terror and ensuing depression, especially with the additional
flash-back of memories over the years.

If that line of thinking is continued, the intent of the beings
to allow such to occur means that their motives for doing so
must be inherently pathological, and malevolent. Of course, this
is also assuming that they are able to assess 'right' from
'wrong', as our culture dictates. This would be especially true
if their intent is to simply terrify the abductee into silence.
This is dangerous ground... to assume that their cultural mores
match our own. But, do they even _try_ to 'match' our mores? The
answer here, I think, is "yes, they do try to take into account
what we think". What is scary for them is that they can only
control our thinking as it relates to our ability to remember.
Because they are incapable of emotion, they cannot control it in
us, and so for us to have conscious recall also brings with
those memories the associated emotions: feelings of pain,
terror, love, hate, mistrust. After all, it's easier for them to
simply 'wipe our memory clean' of the experience. Then we
_can't_ feel anything. But, in doing so, each visit is just as
horrific as the first so that _no_ acclamation to the sequence
of events can occur, no 'stringing-out' of the incidents to
allow for learning (which might also allow for some continuity
of thought based on previous experiences, thus _lessening_ the
degree of terror with each visit).

That lack of continuity _is_ what most often happens to many
abductees. So, are they doing us a favor by _not_ allowing us to
remember, by giving us commands that we will not remember? Are
they being 'kind' in some obtuse fashion, because they realize
our culture and beliefs in 'self-determination' need to be
nutured, not smashed and destroyed? It is those of us with
conscious recall that threaten this little design of theirs. It
is possibly _why_ we don't get visited as often in our old age.
We have memories, and we can differentiate between dreams and
nightmares and real experiences based on our memories and
associated feelings. The emotions are attached like super-glue
to those memories, unlike dreams. Then, they have compounded
their problems for keeping their presence a secret. However, I
don't choose to believe that this particular behavior of theirs
(to 'wipe our memories clean') is for the sole purpose of
scaring the crap out of us each and every time they visit, just
to renew some pathological need to see us suffer. In fact, I
think their intent is exactly the opposite, and is the answer as
to _why_ they do try so hard to 'wipe our memories clean', make
us forget, and keep us in the dark. See what you think. On some
of us, their methods don't work very well, is all.

One of the first early experiences I had (I was 5) involved
trying to get away from the swarms of 'Little People', who I
thought were trolls (like the ones in the 'Billy-Goat Gruff'
stories, hiding under the bridge, waiting to catch anyone who
tried to cross over). BTW, the description of those trolls
closely matches the little buggers, in reality. To get away, I
made a conscious decision to jump from the second floor landing
of our stairs to reach the 1st floor and the front door, to get
out of the house, away from 'them'. In the couple of seconds I
had to decide, I realized I might kill myself in that jump, but
I felt I had no choice, and I thought I was dreaming, anyway, so
I probably wouldn't hurt myself. I was in mid-air, at the apex
of the fall, when I heard someone yell, "NO!" Suddenly, I was no
longer falling. I hung in mid-air, above the staircase, legs and
arms flapping like some little bird in an invisible net. While I
screamed and cried for my mommy, daddy and sister to come help
me, they tried to calm me down, with assurances that they would
not hurt me. Finally, I floated ever so gently to the bottom of
the stairs, lightly landing on one toe. "I can fly!" That's all
my little mind could comprehend. The fear was gone. I scrambled
up the stairs toward them, turned and took off again... it was
so incredible, I just wanted to fly, over and over. I didn't
care if it was a dream. After the 3rd jump, one of the 'Little
People' grabbed for me. Again, I heard, "NO! Leave her alone!
She is turning this into a game to get over her fear." I looked
up and saw a tall grey being. I stopped. He looked like he was
wearing a form-fitting sheet with huge black eyes cut out. I
looked away, trying to think. I hadn't thought of that! He was
right! I was turning it into a game, and I was almost over my
terror... until I saw him! I knew in that instant that I wasn't
dreaming, but my little mind didn't care. I wanted to fly! And,
I knew he would not let me fall to my death, dream or no dream.
He was teaching me to trust. That grey became my mentor,
teacher, protector over the years. And, for several 'visits'
after that, I was allowed to repeat the above scenario, as if my
little mind had to check to make sure they would not allow any
harm to come to me.

But, the ETs were careful to ensure that I could differentiate
between 'being with them' and 'being on my own.' I tried
'flying' off of a table in school shortly after that first
'flying' experience. For a split-second, I felt myself
suspended, but of course, I wasn't. I landed 'splat' on the
linoleum floor, knocking the wind out of me. It's a wonder I
didn't knock teeth out, or split my chin open. It was an
eye-opener for me at 5: there were 2 worlds, one was real, the
other was dream-like, and I was not to assume that they would
ever intervene to 'save me' in this world. Period.

I never tried to 'fly' again, and I never again assumed they
would come and save me from illness, accidents, or whatever else
happened in this world. They came uninvited. When they did come,
my parents were 'asleep' and could not help me, so I didn't
bother to scream. Sometimes, I tried to run into my sister's
bedroom, but the couple of times I did, she was no better off
than I. I was responsible for myself, by myself. It was over
many years, many experiences, that I decided my initial 'blanket
trust' was ill-founded, immature and simplistic. By 13, I had
'fallen in love' with my mentor, my teacher, the grey I named
"Daniel", (as much as a little girl can love at 13). He told me
many things that would happen in the future, none of which I
wanted to believe. They have all come true. After spending years
building up this trust and friendship, teaching me simple
things, from how to save a dying gold fish to showing me the
wonders of our little galaxy and way beyond, after all of this,
'Daniel' chose to hurt me intentionally. After that, I could not
trust him ever again, and told him so. He was 650+ years old, I
was 13. I expected a little more emotional maturity from him.
So, when asked to go live with him, I chose not to. A couple of
months later, while on vacation in Bermuda, I was visited again
and told that 'Daniel' died when his ship crashed somewhere in
Alaska, that he had been so dejected after I turned him down, he
had gambled away everything he had (including me) to a couple of
creepy reptoids. One of them I recognized and dispised. He was
chosen to come and tell me of Daniel's death. I was devastated,
hysterical with grief. I could not be consoled, even after the
'whole gang' came and took me for a walk on the beach, sans the
reptoid creeps. I never saw them again. I've never gotten over
that grief, guilt and anger. If I had gone...etc., etc. 'They'
know how I feel, and sometimes come to comfort me, to make up
for their initial insensitivity. I don't care anymore. I take a
'middle road' on most things now, including these phenomena.
Nothing I have seen or experienced in this world or the other
makes me think 'they' are any more perfect or imperfect than we
are. So, now that I've told you all more than I should have, and
you think I'm as 'whacko' as the nut-cases in Contact, singing,
"Viva Las Vegas", you can hit the 'delete' button. I wish it was
all a bad dream. More than you'll ever know.

 >This is not easy for a crypto-aeronautical researcher and
 >historian to admit openly.

That's ok. I envy you. Your brains, mostly.

 >That said, I read the literature and the posts from those who
 >have admitted to such experiences. Even though I do so with a
 >critical eye and intellect, I cannot dismiss it as some type of
 >wacko movement within the field.

Thanks for reading and _trying_ to understand. My experiences
are too bizarre to discuss, for the most part. Times haven't
changed that much, I fear. If I were 5 again, I'd expect to hear
the same lecture as I did from my father then about "The boy who
cried 'wolf'...too many times." Dad didn't fly into a rage when
I told him about my experiences. He didn't call me a liar.
Instead, he told me to be careful I didn't cry "Wolf" until the
wolf was _really_ at the door...otherwise no one would believe
me if I cried 'wolf' _after_ the wolf had disappeared. He just
didn't want me to talk about it with others. I kept quiet, for
the most part, after that. 'They' didn't intervene to clear up
the confusion either.

 >Yet, I have seen no evidence
 >that it ties directly with crypto-aeronautics in the
 >conventional sense. It seems, on the whole, to lie on the
 >borders of it with channels through it. It is pretty scary and
 >harrowing stuff.

Yep. I've ordered some books written for the layperson, like
myself, to try to understand the possibility of other
dimensions, etc. I've only read one that comes close to
explaining what I think I've experienced. So, I've ordered
others by the same author. I hope I haven't wasted my time (and
money). His name is Michio Kaku. What do you think of his work?

 >In the beginning, 'Ufology' was a pure avenue of adventure. An
 >enigmatic phenomena burst upon the military and public scene.
 >Initially, reports of contacts with the pilots of these strange
 >nuts and bolts craft were dismissed, on the whole, by the
 >military and civilian research groups. It took quite a while for
 >NICAP, CSI, etc. to move in an intellectual position regarding
 >landing cases with humanoid contact and rightly so, for several
 >reasons.

 >First, the Contactee movement began and tried to attach itself
 >to mainstream ufological research. Adamski, Derenberger, Menger,
 >etc., made life miserable for those who were attempting to
 >approach ufology from a scientific and academic viewpoint in an
 >attempt to understand what the phenomena actually entailed. It
 >was very much like the scene out of the movie, 'Contact', where
 >Dr. Ellie Arroway is riding through the wacko crowd seeing Elvis
 >impersonators singing 'Viva Las Vega,' etc.

 >The contactees really muddied the waters of ufology by jumping
 >way ahead of the game without proof or documentation. Suddenly,
 >people were claiming they had traveled to Saturn, Venus, etc.,
 >and that the space brothers were going to save humanity, etc.
 >The same kind of B.S. today under a different wrapper, i.e., the
 >Disclosure Project, etc. The really hardcore example of putting
 >the cart before the horse, so to speak.

Yep. Too many people crying 'Wolf!'

 >On the one side of the coin were the common sense ufologists.
 >They moved carefully and cautiously. But make no mistake here.
 >We were not totally skeptical or ready to dismiss the phenomena
 >like the scientific community did when they defaulted on their
 >responsibilities to explore a new phenomena.

I'm not sure I'd make such a blanket statement as 'defaulted on
their responsibilities...' I think maybe there are some
scientists who have chosen to keep quiet until the 'wolf is at
the door.' Some, I know, are abductees themselves. Meantime,
'they' don't intervene, usually.

 >However, the real
 >ufologists of the day were between scientific resistance and the
 >contactee movement. Ufology, as a unique and interesting field
 >of study was in the position of the proverbial middle road,
 >taking neither a blind eye, nor going off the deep end into
 >fanaticism. Fifty plus years later, nothing has changed in this
 >regard. But, ufology itself, has evolved, even under these most
 >trying of circumstances.

Not much change, from my perspective. Of course, it takes a lot
of innovative thinking to be willing to move off the 'middle
road', and as Dick pointed out, there's a big question in many
scientists and researchers minds as to the relevance and
importance of the UFO phenomena, much less the aspect of
abductions, and how that all fits into whether the issue is
important enough to warrant such deep investigation, time,
money, energy, etc.

Terror tends to make one procrastinate until 'hell freezes over'
before one decides to move off of the 'middle road', status quo.
It's safer standing and doing nothing in the middle of the road.
That goes for abductees too, like myself. Just talking about
this gives me the heebee-jeebies. I may be setting myself up for
another 'visit'. I hope not. Forcing myself to read
semi-scientific material that may or may not substantiate what
I've experienced is about as far as I can go.

This is the only list I participate in, and I don't attend
seminars, conferences, haven't written any books, and can't even
bring myself to make some necessary phone calls which might (not
saying 'will') substantiate some of what has happened to me.
It's _all_ very difficult, whether someone else believes what
you tell them or not. The 'giggle factor' is only another facet
of trying to keep one's sanity. Having to deal with the likes of
Greer et al. doesn't help. They are truely nothing more than a
thorn in the sides of those abductees and researchers (both
believers and debunkers) who are trying to 'be serious', get
answers and _not_ muddy the waters. But, do 'they' help? Nope.
And, 'they' don't intervene, usually.

 >From the historical position, first came the disc phenomenon,
 >followed by the humanoid reports. By 1957, a case regarding an
 >illiterate farmer in the boondocks of Brazil named Villas-Boas,
 >was to be the impetus for mainstream ufology to reconnoiter and
 >face the possibility that there may be some type of 'alien'
 >contact beginning that went beyond aerial dimension. I will let
 >you all go to your UFO literature to read the full details of
 >this case and I'll give a short description here. Villas-Boas
 >had been working in his fields when he observed a flying disc
 >land. He was apprehensive, but not actually scared when he
 >approached this craft. To make a long story short, he was taken
 >inside the craft by humanoids and was sexually propositioned by
 >a humanoid female type. From all practical standpoints, this is
 >the beginning point of the alien abduction scenario.

Wendy, by 1957, I was so directly steeped in ETs, I'd decided to
act 'bored' when they showed up, in hopes of dissuading them
from coming so often. It didn't work very well. They only tended
to increase my learning curve, by showing me unbelievably,
beautiful aspects of our universe. If I told you what I've seen,
I wouldn't expect you to believe me. I don't expect anyone on
this list to believe what I've told you. Even my husband can't
get his head around this stuff. That's ok. I've given up trying.
And, 'they' don't intervene, usually.

 >What made the case so viable as to move mainstream ufological
 >research, was the fact that it was done in an isolated area, not
 >done for publicity and the person traveled hundreds of miles to
 >get medical help from Dr. Olavo Fontes. Thus, from this single
 >case alien abduction entered into the center ring of ufology. It
 >had no connection with the woo-woo contactee movement on the
 >fringes of ufology. It was a hardcore case with far reaching
 >consequences.

We lived in a middle-class suburb of Columbus, Ohio, with houses
all around us. Mr. Ruhl (our next door neighbor) saw something
in the middle of our backyard one night, and had a heart attack.
He was mumbling something about a space ship to the doctor the
next morning, and said he saw my sister and me climbing up a
rope ladder to the ship. Mrs. Ruhl called Mom about it
afterwards. When Mom asked me about it, I lied. "He must be
seeing things", I said. My sister didn't remember anything,
thank goodness. Mr. Ruhl never recovered. He died 2 weeks later.
I always felt guilty, because he was telling the truth. What
difference would it have made? He was an old, sick man, and I
was a little girl. Who would believe either one of us? Even that
that young age, I knew nothing would come of it. And, 'they'
don't intervene, usually.

Funny thing. Dr. Stewart Kingsley, head of the CO-SETI at OSU,
moved into a tiny little house in 1992, just a 1/2 block from
where all of these abductions occurred. He's got a huge dish
sitting in the backyard of that house, trained to the SSW...the
opposite direction from the old woods where so much happened for
10 years...just 3 blocks away, not 10 light years away. He's
still looking...in the wrong direction.

 >Today, various researchers have attempted to grapple with the
 >abduction scenario and formulate possible hypotheses to
 >consider. However, even after all these years, evidence still
 >remain distant to either explain or prove what is actually going
 >on and what to do about it. But, even now, the alien abduction
 >scenario muddies the waters of ufology, as did the contactee
 >movement of the 1950s and 1960s and the Disclosure Projects
 >dancing around in extraterrestrial drag today.

So, as I said before, my anecdotal experiences don't mean crap,
and only serve to muddy the waters.

 >For those who approach the alien abduction scenarios from a
 >practical standpoint, there is little doubt that two shifts have
 >developed within the field of ufological studies. First is the
 >possibility of alien contact, but without documented proof and
 >secondly, that a few people seem to have been contacted against
 >their will by what can only be considered an alien phenomena.
 >Beyond these assumptions all else is total speculation.

Yep. The 'wolf' is out there, but I'm not the one who's going to
do the 'calling in', and I'm certainly _not_ the one you want to
try to clarify things. I have no more answers. Hope your 'toe
dipping' wasn't too painful.

 >There are, however, some real intellectual 'bumps' that exist
 >within this scenario. The most important of these is the very
 >scale as to how many people have been abducted. With estimates
 >ranging in the millions, without documentation, combined with
 >cases from unreliable personalities, etc., there is little doubt
 >that the vast majority of alien abduction cases are bogus and
 >probably arise from other avenues such as, wannabee factors,
 >wishful thinking, etc.

The experiences _all_ sound bogus, no matter what side of the
fence you're in; one has the grass cut a little shorter, the
other is left to grow untended, and there are snakes in it. Most
of the time, I'm standing on the side where the grass is
knee-high and the critters are thick, along with all the other
abductees. Someday, I want to be over on the other side, where
the grass looks greener, shorter and better tended.

 >Thus, from this researchers personal perspective and experience,
 >I assume that there is something to the abduction scenario and
 >that some people, indeed, have experienced something that seems
 >connected, in a bizarre and obtuse way, to the ufological
 >phenomenon. I read the posts from the more centrally-grounded
 >abductees on this List and continue to keep an open mind.
 >However, as much as I hate to state it, there is nobody in core
 >ufology that can answer the abductees questions with
 >quantitative factuality. But, as a researcher, I can certainly
 >empathize with an experiencer's feelings of impotence regarding
 >the meaning or reasons for their experiences.

You don't need to try to keep an open mind. You don't want your
brains to fall out, do you? It's easier to not look too hard.
Don't stray off the beaten path. Unless you're _really_ strong,
you won't make it.

 >Ufology is a science that is still forming. It has a long way to
 >go. However, abductees must assist the research from a middle
 >ground position if there is to be any hope in charting,
 >documenting and understanding such a far-reaching element of
 >ufology and their place in it.

There is no way to 'assist' in the research, not with logical
questions and answers. Note: 'they' don't even communicate the
same way we do (i.e., they make a statement, "A", and jump to
"C", leaving you to try and figure out the _why_ of "B".) Be
real. It's gonna take a whole lotta work on everyone's part
before scientists and ufologists can figure this mess out. In
the meantime, keep the 'whackos' like me out of the picture.
Keep it simple.

 >The difference between a skeptic and a ufologist is very wide.
 >The solid ufological researcher remains skeptical, but open to
 >possibilities and probabilities and works to document the
 >position.

In this case, you're beating your head against a brick wall.
There's so little evidence, it's not worth mentioning.

 >The skeptic lacks the elements of possibility and
 >probability and works from the position that nothing is possible
 >or probable due solely to its enigmatic factor.

I like this. It's like grass growing through cement sidewalks.
If it _does_ grow, it's valid info to be studied.

 >Because of this
 >difference, abductees feel trapped in the middle.

Some of us don't care much anymore. We're just worried about our kids
and grandkids having to deal with this crap for the next 50 years.

 >What is
 >important is that abductee refrain from taking the fanatical
 >position and not allow the skeptibunker (Pelicanist) position to
 >feel that you don't count in ufological research. You do count
 >and seasoned, knowledgable/experienced researchers have not
 >abandoned you...

I'm hardly fanatical about anything anymore. If the government
wants to play games with an intelligence far superior to our own
technologically, let 'em. 'They' won't intervene, usually. Not
until it's too late to 'right' the 'wrongs', then we'll both be
too sorry, too late.

 >but, we take the middle road forward and foray,
 >periodically, down the side roads in an attempt to remain
 >balanced.

Well folks, I hope this little 'foray' hasn't 'unbalanced' your
opinion of me too radically, but I expect it has. I don't feel
any guilt over telling you what I have. I'm just sorry that I
had to blow your opinion of my supposed 'togetherness' all to
*ell and gone. Fortunately, I'm in a lot better shape than some
who have been dealing with this all their lives, and continue to
do so. Now you know why we don't like talking about this too
much, too often. It scares the crap out of us too.


Sincerely,

Sue Strickland
ex-abductee










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 12

                   Re: Magonia Supplement No. 37 - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:43:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:24:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 37 - Aldrich


 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 37.
 >Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:36:58 -0400

 >>Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 20:58:53 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Magonia Supplement No. 37.

Further remarks below.

 >I have a few bones to pick here. See below.

 >>MAGONIA Supplement

 >>No. 37 5 October 2001

 >>EDITORIAL

 ><snip>

 >>LITERARY CRITICISM

 >>Reviews by Peter Rogerson

 >>Michael David Hall. UFOs: a Century of Sightings. Galde Press,
 >>1999. �32.50

 >>This is the first history of ufology and UFO cases by a
 >>professional historian since David Jacobs's The UFO Controversy
 >>in America a quarter of a century back. As a historian, Hall
 >>declines to supply "explanations" for the cases, and notes the
 >>problems with the ETH, though readers will detect in his
 >>selection of cases, and commentary, a general pro-UFO bias.
 >>However, he has little time for Roswell, pointing out that if
 >>something as exotic as a spacecraft had been discovered in 1947,
 >>it would have been months before anyone realised what they were
 >>dealing with. In Roswell they knew what was up at first sight.
 >>Hall hints that perhaps some sort of really big military,
 >>possibly nuclear, secret was involved. He also has a few kind
 >>words to say about Phil Klass.

 >>The strength of this book is the detailed study of the US
 >>government policy, and his use of the private papers of Ed
 >>Ruppelt, which gives some idea of the complexities involved. Of
 >>particular interest is his naming of a new candidate for the
 >>'father of the ETH', the aeronautical engineer Alfred Loedding,

 >The Sign Historical Group interviewed Victor Bilek who worked
 >closely with Loedding. Bilek remembered Loedding as sort of a
 >chatter box. Bilek couldn't believe that Loedding was in on the
 >UFO investigations as he would constantly be spilling the beans
 >about what happened during the day.

 >However, official documents do indicate Loedding was deeply
 >involved. One 1947 document cited Alfred Loedding, Engineer in
 >charge of flying disc investigations. Other documents have
 >Loedding meetin with Dr. Carroll at HQ, AF Intelligence, to
 >discuss establishment of a UFO investigation project.

 >>who seems to have been the driving force behind the infamous
 >>Estimate of the Situation. The trouble is that no one since
 >>Ruppelt has seen the Estimate, and we cannot say what the
 >>arguments used were, though other Air Force documents from this
 >>period suggest that the idea being floated around was that the
 >>Martians had seen the nuclear bomb explosions and were coming to
 >>see what was going on.

As indicated by the McCoy memo, Project SIGN was aware of the Books of
Charles Fort. This may have had some impact on there thinking. Robertson
after the Robertson Panel mentioned that the panel should take care of the
Forteans for awhile.

 >Roger, others have discussed the Estimate from claimed personal
 >knowledge. Fournet said he saw the Estimate. He did not have too
 >high an opinion of the document as his comments at the Ozark UFO
 >Conference indicate. Both Keyhoe and Hynek claimed to have seen
 >either the Estimate or summaries of it.

 >>Hall has met with members of Loedding's
 >>family, and his son claims to have remembered investigating
 >>landing reports back in the 1940s. Is this a false memory? If
 >>not this is very interesting indeed.

 >There were several "landing" reports in 1947-48. Your own
 >research gave me information on several. The AF investigated
 >some of these. See Joel Carpenter's comments on the Midland
 >Fireball:

 >http://www.project1947.com/dow.htm

 >>The case reports should be very useful, and there is much early
 >>material for the ufologists to get their teeth into. One
 >>low-level report from Circleville, Ohio now appears on the basis
 >>of the report here to be a CEIII,

Accounts of the Circleville, Ohio report may be found in the
latter part of this page:

http://www.project1947.com/fig/1948a.htm

 >>and there are a lot of cases,
 >>which if they occurred exactly as reported would be very
 >>puzzling indeed. Looking at these stories reminds us of how easy
 >>it was in the early 1950s to argue for the ETH. Hall points out
 >>that Loedding and others who supported the ETH never had any
 >>positive evidence in its favour; they argued from elimination.
 >>There is evidence of an exotic technology, it isn't ours, it
 >>isn't the Russians, it must be the ETs (which usually meant the
 >>Martians).

 >>Looking at these stories today, what strikes us is that they
 >>don't so much represent what we in 2001 would think of as an
 >>advanced technology or of the work of ETs, but a kind of
 >>advanced 1940s and 1950s technology, a mixture of speculative
 >>ideas about revolutionary aerospace designs and 1930s comic-book
 >>ideas of 'spaceships'. This is the 'advanced technology' of the
 >>world before satellites and computers, and remote imaging.

 >>Though Hall notes the role of the Cold War from time to time, I
 >>was surprised that as a historian he really paid very little
 >>attention to the cultural climate. For example, it seems obvious
 >>now how much war- time experience and imagery pervades these
 >>stories. The flying saucers behave in many ways like
 >>ultra-high-performance German or Japanese fighters, flying in
 >>formation, engaging in dog fights, etc. Just how many of the
 >>pilot UFO witnesses had been on active service in the war, and
 >>how many had been trained either explicitly or implicitly to see
 >>an enemy aircraft behind any ambiguous light in the sky and
 >>react accordingly? We don't know the answer to that question.

 >>Is it a coincidence that as the War receded into memory, UFO
 >>reports become more tenuous, more exotic and "paranormal". Hall
 >>notes how ufologists now have become diverted into the pursuit
 >>of crashed- saucer rumours and wild abduction stories, because
 >>there are no good classical UFO cases around. (It also might be
 >>that while access to the Project Blue Book files is relatively
 >>simple for anyone willing to fork out for the microfilms, access
 >>to the records of civilian UFO groups is next to impossible.)

 >>One should be able to recommend this book as an excellent
 >>source of good-quality UFO reports, and when I first obtained
 >>it, that's what I intended to do, but reading through it gave
 >>me some serious doubts. For I have come to doubt the accuracy
 >>of the accounts given, because in a number of cases that I know
 >>well, the accounts here are inaccurate; indeed the report of
 >>the Hill case is one of the most inaccurate I have come across.
 >>Were the reports compiled from memory, reconstructed from
 >>hastily written notes or what? Also, though Hall does introduce
 >>more foreign reports than most American UFO writers, I came to
 >>the conclusion that his knowledge of the subject was not all
 >>that deep. Perhaps one can only evaluate it after being deeply
 >>involved for decades.

 >>That caveat means that two of the most important cases in the
 >>book, apparent EM-type cases from before the modern UFO wave,
 >>need to be re-examined in the original sources. US readers
 >>should try to get hold of a magazine called Sky Trails for June
 >>1933 and check the story of Colin Murphy who is reported as
 >>claiming that, in late September 1926, seventy miles from Salt
 >>Lake City his DC4 biplane was 'buzzed' by a sort of wingless
 >>cylinder, ninety feet long and eight to ten feet thick. Every
 >>time the object came within 150 ft his engine misfired, forcing
 >>him to make an emergency landing only to see the object shoot
 >>away.

 >These publications are very hard to trace down. I suspect these
 >are lore unless actual copies can be found.

 >>British researchers need to get access to History of the III
 >>Fighter Squadron RAF, London Press, 1947, for the following
 >>story from 5 July 1933, when at night a flight of four Hawker
 >>Fury fighters encountered a "huge circular light" which dropped
 >>down from above into the centre of their formation. Captain
 >>Nigel Tomkins's engine cut out forcing him to crash land.
 >>Another pilot, Bruce Thomas, came even closer, suffering not
 >>just an engine failure but burns to his hands and face. Clearly
 >>if the book can be traced and confirms that this account is
 >>reliable, then all efforts should be made to track down flight
 >>logs and other original documentation, check the local press for
 >>the period, and even try to track down descendants of those
 >>involved. [A preliminary check with the library at the RAF
 >>Museum, and the British library, has failed to trace this book.
 >>JR]

 >Glad to know someone has made an attempt to check this story.

 >>British resesarchers might also like to try to find something
 >>more about a vague reference by Ruppelt to an incident on 16-17
 >>January 1947, in which two fighters intercepted a violently
 >>moving object over England.

 >What is more interesting is that Ruppelt indicates that there
 >were a series of such reports.

I was aware of the research of Clarke and Roberts, but not the extent of
their haul. Impressive. Nor was I aware that the "ghost aeroplanes" went
back to 1945, especially interesting. There is more work to be done in the
AAF message files in our National Archives to see if the American attachees
informed Washington of these reports. I do indeed await their book.

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2001/oct/m11-011.shtml

Other interesting leads are:

1) A supposed attempted UFO interception near Hong Kong by the
RAF on about 10 July 1947. Newspaper reports in Hong Kong
referred to such rumors which the RAF denied.

2) Radar tracks of unknown objects by the Royal Navy off of
Japan in 1948. A report is listed in USAF intelligence index
cards, but the report is not available in the large, still
classified, AF intelligence report library turned over to the
National Archives.

3) References to "Gizmos" in various news reports and
intelligence reports, that is unknown radar tracks for US
radars. I can't pin any of these down, but obviously these
bothered radar people in the US. Loren Gross mentioned a rather
short report in 1946.

4) I think we will find a rather more extensive investigation
into ghost rockets than previously thought with the use of both
radar and radio direction finders. One Top Secret US Navy
document does mention the use of a Navy plane with specieal
radio interception gear in 1947.

5) If ghost rockets were a Scandinavian psychosociological
phenomena should we not expect find similar stories in the
northern Norwegian Islands, Iceland and Greenland. (Limited
research to date in a few Icelandic newspapers has turned up
nothing but reports from the main land of Europe.)

 >>Despite the errors, and the price, this is an important book,
 >>and one that ufologists should add to their collection.


Jan Aldrich









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 12

                         Re: Nexus Magazine? - Danks

From: Darren Danks <darrend@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 01:06:16 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:31:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Nexus Magazine? - Danks

:
:
:
:
:
:
:


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Nexus Magazine? - McGonagle
 >Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 16:57:01 +0100


 >I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them - they got
 >quite nasty when I suggested (contrary to their assertions) that
 >the Transistor is of completely terrestrial origin, a natural
 >progression from the semiconductor diode.

 >In the end, they threatened me with legal action (after calling
 >me all sorts of names, and accusing me of being racist!).

 >Regards,

 >Joe

Hi Joe and the list

I agree with the transistor bit. It definately IS of terrestrial
origin but not from the U.S. as a lot of people think. It was
actually developed at the Mullard laboratories at (now) DERA
facility at Malvern, UK. They grow silicon crystals there
amongst other things, non of this "the ETs invented it all" type
stuff. Humans can think for themsleves even though some people
don't seem to think so. They invented the P-N junction diode and
then started playing around with different variations to see
what happens. Who of us haven't played around with chemicals in
science at school to see what happens :-)

We all know the ETs are here but they didn't invent all the
technology we have around us. WE are much much smarted than WE
give ourselves credit for!!

Re. Nexus, I've always enjoyed the mag but I didn't realise they
can get so nasty if someone disagrees with any of the articles.


Take care

Darren









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   Oct > Oct 12

                            Re: Book Sale - Hale

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 02:58:24 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:10:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Book Sale - Hale


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:34:10 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Book Sale
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Dear Roy, Listers and Errol,

 >Thank you for the book sale, however the only book I was
 >interested in purchasing was "Women on Top" and my wifey won't
 >let me have it. Well, actually that is not quite accurate. She
 >told me that she WOULD let me have it. If I bought the book.


Jim,

I am sorry to say, that the book you mention does not contain
any pictures of naked women, simply a lot of text from women
about their sexual fantasies.

A slight over spill on my Psycho-social readings.

Thank you to those who have e-mailed privately for certain
books.

http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/Booksell.htm

Roy..









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   Oct > Oct 12

              Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzlez Manso

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:35:40 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:17:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzlez Manso


 >Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:47:42 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction

Hello John,

You wrote

 >The first known (reported) case of UFO abduction and it was
 >never investigated on the spot where it happened, nor properly
 >recorded or documented. I'd laugh if it wasn't so sad.

I do not explain myself properly. Vilas Boas was interviewed at
length by Dr. Fontes and Martins about 4 months after the
incident. This happened in Rio de Janeiro (not in Sao Paulo as I
wrote before). The SBEDV investigation team did visit Vilas Boas
at home, in San Francisco de Sales, and visited the place of the
incident but 5 years later and without interviewing any
additional family member, etc.

On the main question, I strongly agree with you in that bedroon
visitors are a different phenomena from UFO abductions, or at
least, should be analized differently. But...

Let us center in your own case (as I read it in Brokesmith's
'Alien Abductions'). Let's accept for the sake of the argument
that you did see a non-human craft in Brooklyn that night. Even
though, you yourself did not qualify as an abductee, because
you did _not_ have conscious recall of being abducted.

You panicked, started running, and "the next second, it's
daylight, and I'm sitting bolt upright in bed. It's 7 o�clock in
the morning. And I've got blood all over me (...) and my eye is
out here, very red and swollen, and the white of the eye is
completely red". You were not mugged because all your valuables
were still in your pants (One question: Did you awake dressed,
even with your shoes on?).

I have proposed that you might simply had trip over a rubbish
can and some foreign substance (solid or liquid) may have
entered your eye and produced an allergic reaction. You yourself
admitted that the physiological imposibility of having a eye
"laying on the cheek" made your statement under hypnosis just a
sensation, not a fact.

Not everybody who sees a UFO, even at a short distance is
abducted. Why did you think that part of your experience is
real?


Yours,

Luis R. Gonzlez Manso










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   Oct > Oct 12

              Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzlez Manso

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:01:11 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:23:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzlez Manso


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:13:34 -0500

Hello, Jerry.

You wrote:

 >An admittedly every specialized fantasy, involving among - other
 >erotic elements - vomiting. I think the rest of us will count
 >that among the less probable explanations for Villas-Boas's
 >story.

Of course, you are entitled to think so. My bet would be a tall
tale on the chemist which backfired.

The history of ET beliefs in South America is still to be
written, but you must remember that the very first human contact
with aliens post-Arnold was the Jose C. Higgings encounter, in
Brazil. (Not much cited is the last sentence of the newspaper
account - no investigation, again - on the case, which points
to a possible hoax or a dream. I do not have it at hand but if
you are interested I will look for it).

Besides, just a few weeks before the Vilas Boas case, we have
the appearance on Brazilian TV of Profesor Guimaraes boasting
about his travels in a UFO.

 >To me the case is interesting as one that, long before Budd
 >Hopkins's investigations brought the concept into the abduction
 >controversy, suggests the presence of hybrid beings. At least it
 >is consistent with that hypothesis, as are the surprising number
 >of early CE3s (unremarked on by any ufologist, as far as I know,
 >until I discussed it in my UFO Encyclopedia) wherein human or
 >near-human entities are described.

Well, we could also consider Greek semi-gods (like Hercules)
hybrid beings. And, what did the B.E.M.s of the SF pulps in the
30s have in mind abducting so many damsels? Peter Rogerson
wrote a series of articles in Magonia about the precedents of
abduction up to the Hills.

What I am trying to say is that talking about hybrids is just
speculation. And a speculation shared by many people (remember
the Bible stories about giants messing around with human
women?). Human or humanoid beings are so because of the lack of
imagination exhibited by contactees and eyewitness, or because
of a convergent evolution? Even Swords, who admits the
convergent evolution option, denies the possibility of
hybridisation.

The only solution (for its reality) is the one commented by
Dniken et al, that aliens created humans. But this solution
really creates more problems than it solves.


Yours,

Luis R. Gonzlez










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   Oct > Oct 12

             Re: Position Statement on Alien Abduction - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:19:46 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:54:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Position Statement on Alien Abduction - Connors


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:12:49 -0400
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Position Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez

 >>From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Position Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 06:22:47 -0600


 >>Hi Wendy, hi All,

 >>Right out of the gate I find that the alien abduction scenario,
 >>from its beginning, scares the hell out of me. Enough so, I have
 >>never written about it or wanted to do deep research into it.
 >>This is not easy for a crypto-aeronautical researcher and
 >>historian to admit openly.

 >The honest admission you have made is what IMHO separates the
 >'wheat from the chaff' in terms of intellectual honesty.
 >Something which is sorely lacking in many of those associated
 >with "ufology." Your openness and honesty is refreshing and
 >appreciated. Wish we could all see more of it among those who
 >investigate the UFO phenom.

Well, John, I ain't as smart as I wish I was, but then again,
I'm human, so that accounts for the times I stumble over my
tongue and butcher my own reasoning. Guess trying is what really
counts in the whole scheme of things, but I appreciate the
compliment. <G>

 >>That said, I read the literature and the posts from those who
 >>have admitted to such experiences. Even though I do so with a
 >>critical eye and intellect, I cannot dismiss it as some type of
 >>wacko movement within the field. Yet, I have seen no evidence
 >>that it ties directly with crypto-aeronautics in the
 >>conventional sense.

 >That is one of the things I have been talking about since day
 >one. Although I hesitate to use the analogy because it opens up
 >its own 'can of worms' it is only the "Betty and Barney Hill"
 >type encounters involving a "UFO" _and_ its "occupants," (which
 >also includes the Travis Walton case, the Charlie Hickson
 >Pascagoula, Miss. case, the Allagash four case, etc etc etc)
 >should even be considered by "UFO" researchers. That is an
 >opinion that has caused many "abductees" to call me a
 >"traitor"and a "skeptic" (of all things) in the past.


I know what you mean, John, about "opening a can of worms." I
should have kept my mouth shut...60 emails and counting since I
posted. I gotta feeling I'll be up all night again. <G>

 >You are quite correct however that _many_ "abductee" reports
 >have nothing to do with a direct encounter/contact with a UFO. I
 >have been saying for years that _all_ of those cases should be
 >set aside in favor of focusing on the ones which involve: a
 >fully awake/alert individual who was 'going about their
 >business' at the time of the "contact/sighting," cases involving
 >multiple witnesses/experiencers, and at all times only cases
 >that involve close-up contact/interaction with a UFO(s) and
 >their occupants.

I agree. It is kind of like the nocturnal light scenario in
ufology. What can you really do with them except chart them in a
database? I dunno. I don't have the expertise of Larry Hatch,
etc. in that area and rely on him and others to inform me of
what it might mean. Besides, I go blind trying to connect the
dots on the maps and then am more confused than ever. <G> On top
of that, people who write me asking me to tell them what the
"big blue, hazy light" was that "zigged and zagged" they saw.
Now, in all honesty, how can that question be answered that
would be acceptable? It can't.

 >A big part of the problem has been that "UFO" abduction has not
 >been clearly defined by anyone who does research. Ergo, it has
 >become defined (what an "abduction" is,) by the experiencers
 >themselves.

<snip>

Wish I could help you here, John, but I've perambulated around
the field for a heck of a long time and I still beat my head
against the wall trying to clearly define what "Ufology" is
supposed to be. That's why I keep saying that the UFO phenomena
is reality based and we really don't know diddly squat what it
really is and what it means yet.

Also, that is why I stopped using "ufology" and switched to
using the term: crypto-aeronautics. It just sounds better and
seems easier to grapple with because it isn't so obtuse and
enigmatic sounding. I think its a start, but then again, what
the hell do I know? I am schlepping around like everybody else.

The more I study the more I know and the more I know the more I
forget...thus, the less I know. Yet, like caged dog, I keep
trying to understand and make sense of something that doesn't
make sense. Good intellectual exercise, but even though I
learned a lot of really good stuff, I'm no closer to an answer
than I was on day one.

No wonder people go wacky in this field at times. In a nutshell,
we know more about what crypto-aeronautics isn't, than what it
really is and that's a start, anyway. So, I can understand your
frustration with your work in the alien abduction scene.

 >>Today, various researchers have attempted to grapple with the
 >>abduction scenario and formulate possible hypotheses to
 >>consider. However, even after all these years, evidence still
 >>remain distant to either explain or prove what is actually going
 >>on and what to do about it. But, even now, the alien abduction
 >>scenario muddies the waters of ufology, as did the contactee
 >>movement of the 1950s and 1960s and the Disclosure Projects
 >>dancing around in extraterrestrial drag today.

 >I don't think that is the abductees fault as much as it is a
 >problem caused by those who report on the phenomenon as
 >'proponents' of it, rather than as objective investigators.

<snip>

 >I would blame them (if 'blame' is a proper term) before I'd
 >blame the experiencers.

I'm not blaming the Experiencers, John. At least in the way you
are perceiving it. What I am saying is that some Experiencers
make demands on researchers that cannot be met and then
fulminate to the point of making researchers want to ignore them
or the abduction scenario in total.

Kinda like being a parent and having the rug rompers in the back
seat constantly saying, "Are we there yet? Huh? Are we there
yet? Why aren't we there yet?" Well, you get the point, I'm
sure. The Experiencer is undoubtedly desperate for answers (who
wouldn't be in the same circumstances), but some cannot accept,
or will accept, that researchers really don't know any more than
what they, themselves know. In other words, Experiencers
sometimes want the researcher to handle the situation and guide
them, but that cannot really be done. Assisted, yes, but not
given definitive answers or make the experience more palatable.

 >>For those who approach the alien abduction scenarios from a
 >>practical standpoint, there is little doubt that two shifts have
 >>developed within the field of ufological studies. First is the
 >>possibility of alien contact, but without documented proof and
 >>secondly, that a few >people seem to have been contacted against
 >>their will by what can only be considered an alien phenomena.
 >>Beyond these assumptions all else is total speculation.

 >I agree with the latter but not with the former. There
 >_is_'documentation' in the form of physical marks, scars, and
 >foreign objects, as well as ground trace evidence, multiple
 >witnesses etc., that are associated with these
 >encounters/reports.

Well, John, I think you are half correct on this point. But,
collateral documentation is just that and does not prove
conclusively alien abduction. I'll give you an example.
Reference the Cash/Landrum incident. Radiation type burns,
helicopters, diamond-like craft, etc. Obviously an unknown
aeronautical craft is observed, witnesses injured, etc. But no
definitive proof of an extraterrestrial craft. Same with
Experiencer's trace elements. Those alone do not conclusively
point to alien abduction, torture, etc.

There is no actual proof, as yet, that the abduction scenario is
extraterrestrial in nature, interdimensional, etc. These remain hypotheses
with secondary evidence. This documentation gives only hard circumstantial
evidence that an enigmatic event took place. Nothing more. Alone, such
evidentiary elements do not prove an alien abduction actually took place,
but suggests only a possibility and not a probability. What it does prove is
that the incident cannot be discounted or ignored. It requires further study
and research. The skeptic won't even go this far.

<snip>

 >>There are, however, some real intellectual 'bumps' that exist
 >>within this scenario. The most important of these is the very
 >>scale as to how many people have been abducted. With estimates
 >>ranging in the millions, without documentation, combined with
 >>cases from unreliable personalities, etc., there is little
 >>doubt that the vast majority of alien abduction cases are bogus
 >>and probably arise from other avenues such as, wannabee
 >>factors, wishful thinking, etc.

 >I agree. Although I would hesitate to venture a guess as to the
 >percentage. I think that using a term like "vast majority" is a
 >bit extreme. It probably reflects a personal bias in thinking
 >more than it does representation of 'hard' or 'proven fact'.
 >Truth is, until somebody begins to investigate, and through
 >the process of elimination actually determines how many such
 >cases are bogus, we >just won't know how many are real or not.

Well, I think you kinda split hairs here, John. Common sense
tells me that if 3 or 4 million Americans (let's forget the
millions world-wide for the sake of argument) of all economic,
political, social, etc., status have been abducted by aliens,
then a portion of those would be in positions of power
(economically and politically) to do something about getting it
researched. Smaller groups of people have destroyed governments,
etc. I'm pretty convinced such a phenomena is taking place, but
I believe that "alien abduction" is on a very small scale and
even at that, it presents very serious problems.

<snip>

 >See my first response above. :) I have had such an encounter
 >Wendy.

<snip>

I know, John. Kinda singing to the choir, eh? <G>

 >We can't say "there is no evidence" because no one has taken
 >the time to determine whether what is already in hand actually
 >comprises valid or 'acceptable evidence'. Even the most basic
 >of research has yet to be performed. Yet everyone always feels
 >free to expound on the abduction phenomenon as if they
 >actually knew what the hell they were talking about.

John, from your experience and perspective, whom (persons,
organizations) do you suggest has the expertise via, political,
scientific, medical, economic, social/psychological, etc. to
address the problem and exactly what do you want done about a
problem that seems beyond human comprehension? Further, exactly
how do you feel this should be accomplished and by what
methodology?

 >>I read the posts from the more centrally-grounded abductees on
 >>this List and continue to keep an open mind.

 >I'd like to think that I am considered one of those.

You are and I'm listening.

<snip>

 >The search for "meaning" for me, is secondary to helping get a
 >real investigation started. People need to know what is
 >happening, and they needed to know it _yesterday!_ There is an
 >urgency to all of this that few are able to (genuinely)
 >appreciate. What many of us have been through is _no_joke_.
 >The implications for our future and the future of our children
 >are monumental.

Wouldn't a search for possible "meaning" be an important core
element of a real investigation? Secondly, what you and others
have been through is certainly "no joke" by any conceivable
stretch of the imagination. Thirdly, there is more "urgency" in
many other things, too, John. At the moment, I am more concerned
for the welfare of the free world, but that does not mean that
does not mean I don't care about you or people who are
experiencing such a phenomena. But, I don't count dead bodies in
alien abduction incidents. Psychological stress...definitely.
But psychological stress can be just as monumental in other
things besides an alien abduction incident.

 >>Ufology is a science that is still forming. It has a long way
 >>to go. However, abductees must assist the research from a middle
 >>ground position if there is to be any hope in charting,
 >>documenting and understanding such a far-reaching element of
 >>ufology and their >place in it.

<snip>

 >Sorry but, you can't blame us for not being willing to
 >cooperate. I'm the exception that disproves the rule. The fault
 >lies mostly with the research community itself. It has fallen
 >flat on its pontificating face when it comes to investigating
 >reports of UFO abduction. Like I said, everybody has something
 >to say, but few actually know what the devil they are talking
 >about. Until the research community actually accepts some
 >responsibility for properly investigating abduction reports, all
 >we're going to get is more 'uneducated' opinion.

Ummm, I didn't "blame [ Experiencer's] for not being willing to
cooperate." I put forth the concept that by "demanding"
something be researched that is probably beyond human ability at
this time, is muddying the waters. I asked above what should be
done, how should it be done and what expectations are possible?
In other words, what methodology does a researcher follow when
facing such an enigma? Moral support and an ear to listen is
what is available, currently. If crowd chanting takes over, how
can that help? Thus, muddying the waters. Thus, the middle of
the road scenario to understanding and developing a methodology
to research.

 >>What is important is that abductee refrain from taking the
 >>fanatical position and not allow the skeptibunker (Pelicanist)
 >>position to feel that you don't count in ufological research.
 >>You do count and seasoned, knowledgable/experienced researchers
 >>have not abandoned you... but, we take the middle road forward
 >>and foray, periodically, down the side roads in an attempt to
 >>remain balanced.

 >Yeah, well if you look over to your left a little you'll see me
 >out there in the middle of the road beside you. Those who know
 >me best will vouch for how hard I work at staying grounded,
 >open-minded, and willing to learn and to work. Now, if we can
 >find some researchers who are willing to do like-wise... we'll
 >be in business. :)

I think you've made good strides in your quest, John, but taking
the position that insinuates that it's researchers fault for not
doing something about the abduction scenario is pretty lame.
Therefore, that is certainly not a middle of the road approach.

Nobody gives me medals or glory for the new material I've
brought to the field, so why should you be courted differently?
I'll give you an example: I posted information about what a
single page from a classified document actually detailed by
bringing the entire manual to the eyes of ufological researchers
(AFM 200-3) on various lists, including this one. By doing so I
conclusively documented and destroyed the speculation about the
illustration and wording that has puzzled ufologists since 1966.
Yet, only two people even acknowledged the contribution, which I
deeply appreciated, but my doing so is not for alocades (sp?),
it is what I do and how I contribute. I certainly don't blame
NICAP, Dick Hall, Frank Edwards, etc. for not doing so, even
though Edwards gave it to NICAP and researchers have speculated
on it for decades.


Regards,

Wendy Connors










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             Re: Position Statement On Alien Abduction - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:57:45 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:03:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Position Statement On Alien Abduction - Connors


This post is addressed to the members of the List who have been
experiencers of what the alien abduction scenario in Ufology and
anyone else who may be interested.

First, I want to thank Sue, John, et. al., who have replied to
my position statement, both on the List and privately. It is
quite impossible to personally reply to all of you, not because
I did not read your email or post, but because of time
constraints. For example, this morning I waited for 18 minutes
for emails sent to finish D/loading. I did respond personally
to some of you last night, but I don't want any of you to be
offended because you are not getting a personal reply. If the
situation were reversed, I am sure you would understand. That
said, I want to respond to all of you in a different way... on
this List.

John Velez seems to have taken the lead, more or less, in a
position as spokesperson for many Experiencers and has a List
for those of you who feel more comfortable discussing the issues
away from the eyes of the 'world' and researchers. John plainly
stated yesterday that one of the commonalities among
Experiencers is that researchers are not really doing anything.
I've responded to John and you should have seen it on the UFO
Updates List by now.

I want to try an experiment on the List. Those who wish to
participate can send their answer to me privately. But, before I
explain what I want to do, I must ask you to consider the
following:

1. I am not a scientist, physician, psychologist, psychiatrist,
etc. I am a crypto-aeronautic researcher who just looks, learns
and make my own decisions.

2. It does not matter whether I believe or disbelieve what all
of you shared shared with me (are you listening, Sue?). What
does matter, is that I am willing to keep and open mind and
allow you to teach me before I make a definitive belief
regarding alien abduction one way or the other. Hopefully, other
researchers on this list will learn too.

3.  The responsibility to teach the crypto-aeronautic researcher
about alien abduction is the primary responsibility of the
Experiencers themselves. Researchers cannot teach you what you
already know from personal experience. However, researchers
worth their salt, so to speak, are willing to listen and learn,
but the Experiencer must learn the "language" of
crypto-aeronautic research, while the researcher must learn the
"language" of alien adbduction scenarios so that channels of
communication don't end up in a semantic quagmire. As an
example: Medical doctors speak in medical terminology so that
there is no misunderstanding of what is being related. This
leaves discussion or disagreements to be considered without
having to hash through just what another doctor is talking
about. This same specific language model is found in all
professions and undertakings. The engineer, architect, etc., all
use commonality of terminology. Crypto-aeronautics has not
reached this level, as yet, but it is progressing.

The above said, I give notice to the Experiencer that much of
their frustration with the research end of the alien abduction
scenario from both sides, is due to the lack of proper
terminology. The experiment I want to do is very, very simple in
language, but will be excessively difficult, as those who wish
to participate will quickly take note and wonder if you can do
it at all. But I ask you to really give it all you've got. It is
important for several reasons.

First, a baseline is needed for research. I haven't seen this to
date. From this baseline, or core meaning, are all other
elements of study and research derived. I will explain as simply
as I can by using an example. A young man is arrested for
holding up a convience store and is taken into custody and
questioned by the police about why he did it. Through the
questioning the police learn he is unemployed, addicted to
drugs, etc. He is tried for the crime and sentenced accordingly.
However, even with all of the information given and learned the
bottom line is not addressed. This bottom line would be called
the "Baseline" and is the beginning point of understanding the
whole situation. The absolute baseline, once the police, court
and lawyers got through, would be: "I needed the money." It
isn't quite that simple though. The baseline is necessary to
understand the whole scenario of the crime. He need money to buy
drugs, but he's on drugs as an escape from an abusive father or
parents who did not give him a moral ground from which to grow;
that he was hungry or needed money to feed his sister, etc.
Further, he might not have learned the process for getting
assistance without resorting to crime, but may feel the process
for doing so makes him feel belittled, etc. The list is endless.
But, the absolute bottom line is: He needed money.

Secondly, the baseline is critical for building the process in
order to find or determine answers to questions and then for the
eventual building of a methodology that can be used to study,
track and deal with the alien abduction scenario. Remember,
research and understanding isn't easy and it doesn't come to
full circle for quite awhile. But it is a way, I believe, for
the Experiencer and researcher interested in unraveling the
phenomena together (are you listening, John?).

Heres the experiment and I'll put it in simple terms and with a
simple statement.

Statement: People who have experienced what they feel is alien
abduction feel isolated, scared, etc. Further, they don't know
what to do about the experience(s) and fear for the
possibilities it may have for their children, spouses, etc.
Desperate, they seek understanding, acceptance, etc. Due to the
emotional issues involved and the stress of the issue,
Experiencers are generally taken for wackos, weirdos or
hysterical types by a large percentage of their society. The
reason for this is that the experiences are so weird and
bizarre, most people don't want to listen or it scares them in
some way. In other words, most people, if given a choice, would
rather the Experiencer just go away and stop confusing things.
However, that won't happen. From a common sense standpoint
alone, regardless of the psychological mumbo-jumbo, etc., too
many people have had an experience that closely relates to
others experiences, thus are an actual community of people with
a common factor of experience. Therefore, in order to set a
baseline, the following is offered and those who desire to
participate are welcome to do so.

Rules: Participation can be via the List or directly to me
by private email. I will not personally respond to those who
wish to participate, but will gather the individual answers,
compile them and send them on (without names) to those
researchers more adept than I am in this particular aspect of
crypto-aeronautics. I will then share with the List, in general
terms, what seems to be the concensus as to the baseline of
alien abduction from the researchers standpoint. I will give
until January 31, 2002 for all responses from those who desire
to participate.

The Question:

The "Experiencer" must select a time to quietly reflect on their
experiences and without using emotion or explanation, give a
_single_sentence_ to the following question:


The bottom line meaning of the experience I have had or continue
to have for me, is: (Remember, just one sentence)


Thank you,

Wendy Connors








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              Re: Rendlesham: Landing Deposited 10x Background

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:29:54 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:30:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Rendlesham: Landing Deposited 10x Background


I have now received the information I needed from the Ordnance
Survey office, and it identifies the NRPB grid reference for RAF
Woodbridge and most of Rendlesham forest to be:

63(E) 24(N)

The corresponding figure for background radiation in that 10 km
square is given as:

20 nanoGrays/Hour (0.00000002 Gy/hour)

1 Gray=100 Rad, therefore, this figure equates to:

100x20/1,000,000,000 Rad/hour
=0.000002 Rad/hour or 2 microRad/hour

I am fallible, though I have tried to be as accurate as
possible, so if I have made any error in the grid reference or
the calculations, please feel free to correct me.

If we accept the reading given on Halt's tape as 0.07 mRad/hour,
and allow an error factor of 50%, the minimum reading would be
around 0.035 mRad/hour, or 35 microRad/hour, seventeen times the
"official" background level.

I suppose it is now up to the individual to decide whether this
comparatively massive reading (though still harmless, we are
assured) was due to the method of measurement used, or
radioactive contamination from an unknown source.

Out of interest, the national average natural outdoor dose rate
in the UK is given as 34 nGy/hour, or 3.4 microRad/Hour. I also
tried to work out the safe exposure levels, but got thoroughly
bamboozled by different units of measurement-why do they make
things difficult for people? For information and if anyone wants
to work out the Rad equivalents, 1 mSv (millisievert) is the
recommended annual dose limit for the general public (according
to the International Commission on Radiological Protection).


Cheers,

Joe








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                     The Watchdog (e-update) - 10-12-01

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:38:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:33:05 -0400
Subject: The Watchdog (e-update) - 10-12-01


UFOWATCHDOG.COM
"Don't Trip On Your Open Mind"
http://www.ufowatchdog.com

***COMMENTARY***

How Far Will They Go? - In the aftermath of the terror attacks,
UFOlogy's finest are once again at it taking advantage of a
tragic situation.

Shameless Sellers Trying To Turn Tragedy Into Cash - The death
of thousands and the mourning of an entire nation isn't enough
to stop some from trying to cash in.

***NEWS***

~ Ed Dames: Full of It and Then Some...
~ UK Government Helps Fund Crop Circle Film
~ Australian Police Investigate Abduction
~ Mothman Prophecies: Coming To A Theater Near You
~ Seat@home Expands Its Back Yard
~ Circles Grow More Complex
~ UFOs and the NOSS
~ Alien Autopsy Update












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                          Statistics On Hoax Cases?

From: Minna Hyvonen <minna.hyvonen@kolumbus.fi>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 20:07:36 +0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:35:21 -0400
Subject: Statistics On Hoax Cases?


Dear List,

Has anyone compiled any statistics about UFO-hoax cases? If so,
where could such statistics be found?

Asks

Minna H










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                  Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:40:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:36:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Clark


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:01:11 +0200


 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:13:34 -0500


Hi, Luis,

 >>An admittedly every specialized fantasy, involving among - other
 >>erotic elements - vomiting. I think the rest of us will count
 >>that among the less probable explanations for Villas-Boas's
 >>story.

 >Of course, you are entitled to think so. My bet would be a tall
 >tale on the chemist which backfired.

Based, exactly, on what evidence?

 >>To me the case is interesting as one that, long before Budd
 >>Hopkins's investigations brought the concept into the abduction
 >>controversy, suggests the presence of hybrid beings. At least it
 >>is consistent with that hypothesis, as are the surprising number
 >>of early CE3s (unremarked on by any ufologist, as far as I know,
 >>until I discussed it in my UFO Encyclopedia) wherein human or
 >>near-human entities are described.

 >Well, we could also consider Greek semi-gods (like Hercules)
 >hybrid beings. And, what did the B.E.M.s of the SF pulps in the
 >30s have in mind abducting so many damsels? Peter Rogerson
 >wrote a series of articles in Magonia about the precedents of
 >abduction up to the Hills.

Of course, as Eddie Bullard has stated repeatedly, claiming a
pedigree and demonstrating one are entirely different matters.
So far, all I see in this sort of psychosocial guesswork is the
former.  Has anybody demonstrated that CE3 witnesses were
students of Greek mythology or immersed in 30s pulp science-
fiction arcana?  I don't think so.

In any event, unless you're claiming that all CE3 claimants who
reported what we might now interpret as hybrid beings were
lying, the theory you seem to be proposing makes no sense. We're
talking about experiences, sometimes multiply or independently
witnessed, not ideas and images extant only in mental space.  I
find Villas-Boas's anticipation of sexual abductions, plus its
implied hybrid being, interesting, and even more so in the
context of later sexual abductions and in the unremarked-upon
context of early CE3 experiences of humanlike entities.

None of this proves anything, of course, but it surely deserves
more than airy dismissal.


Jerry Clark











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             Re: Position Statement On Alien Abduction - Hyvonen

From: Minna Hyvnen <minna.hyvonen@kolumbus.fi>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 20:50:50 +0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 15:25:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Position Statement On Alien Abduction - Hyvonen


 >From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Position Statement on Alien Abduction
 >Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 06:22:47 -0600

 >Right out of the gate I find that the alien abduction scenario,
 >from its beginning, scares the hell out of me. Enough so, I have
 >never written about it or wanted to do deep research into it.
 >This is not easy for a crypto-aeronautical researcher and
 >historian to admit openly.

We seem to be biased a bit different way: somehow - I wonder why
- I feel no fear while hearing these stories of people`s
experiences. But I must point out, that the more horrifying
experience, the more I hope the person could somehow avoid it.
Who would want any harm to same-species individuals? Maybe my
attitude developed when I listened, for 4 years, to the stories
of different experiencers. The experiences of UFOs and big
black-eyed monsters were a piece of cake compared with claims
and experiences of evil spirits. I want to point out, that I do
not consider that the experiences were originated by spirits.
But how can people have horrible experiences even when there is
no shred of evidence, that anyone other than themselves has
caused them?!

<snip>

 >In the beginning, 'Ufology' was a pure avenue of adventure. An
 >enigmatic phenomena burst upon the military and public scene.
 >Initially, reports of contacts with the pilots of these strange
 >nuts and bolts craft were dismissed, on the whole, by the
 >military and civilian research groups. It took quite a while for
 >NICAP, CSI, etc. to move in an intellectual position regarding
 >landing cases with humanoid contact and rightly so, for several
 >reasons.

Now I�m slipping slightly of the topic.....

What has bothered me on the history of ufology is the question
of egg and hen; Which was first, the unidentified flying
objects, or horrifying experiences of odd creepers? See, first
it seemed there was flying things first. Then I studied (as a
lay-man) a bit about sleep paralysis, and found out, that
surprisingly far in our history there is stories of odd
experiences, that fills the features of sleep paralysis. Is
there a starting poit at all, or has these phenomenons been with
us as long as we have been here?

 >The contactees really muddied the waters of ufology by jumping
 >way ahead of the game without proof or documentation. Suddenly,
 >people were claiming they had traveled to Saturn, Venus, etc.,
 >and that the space brothers were going to save humanity, etc.
 >The same kind of B.S. today under a different wrapper, i.e., the
 >Disclosure Project, etc. The really hardcore example of putting
 >the cart before the horse, so to speak.

It never ceases to surprise me, that _only_ mentioning the
scientific point makes some people so angry, they react like
they were beaten. Why? The only explanation I have found is
that they feel that their own values are in danger of being
crushed, and they are themselves in danger of being muddled.

 >On the one side of the coin were the common sense ufologists.
 >They moved carefully and cautiously. But make no mistake here.
 >We were not totally skeptical or ready to dismiss the phenomena
 >like the scientific community did when they defaulted on their
 >responsibilities to explore a new phenomena. However, the real
 >ufologists of the day were between scientific resistance and the
 >contactee movement. Ufology, as a unique and interesting field
 >of study was in the position of the proverbial middle road,
 >taking neither a blind eye, nor going off the deep end into
 >fanaticism. Fifty plus years later, nothing has changed in this
 >regard. But, ufology itself, has evolved, even under these most
 >trying of circumstances.

<snip>

Good points. Today in Finland - and surely globally - it seemes
we have these types of UFO-hobbists:

1) critical UFO-researchers
2) non-critical UFO-researchers
3) critical experiencers (we do not know them because of their own critiques)
4) non-critical experiences (them we know well)

Standing in the middle, walking the Golden Road so to speak is
not a easy task, and I wonder how many have succeded at it. I
don�t think the religious aspects should be considered in
UFO investigation, but the theories of altered mind-states,
hallucinations and purely mis-interpretions should. We have also
discussed here about studying the experiencer him/herself. Not
as beliveing everyone is a hoaxer, more like checking out all
diseases and disorders, like narcolepsy, sleep paralysis etc.
But as many other things, this splits our group in two; one says
it is an insult to study the experiencer, the other thinks it is a
good idea and should be done.

Do you folks think that examing the health of the experiencer
could be any good for UFO research? If it could be of any benefit,
how and by whom it should be done?

Minna H








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                    Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:29:03 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 15:28:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Gehrman


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse
 >Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:57:52 -0400

You wrote to Jim:

 >You have defended Vetterick and the AA CD program even when the
 >means to the ends involved attacking reputations.

 >In this case, mine.

 >It has been demonstrated that I had been falsely accused of
 >breaking an agreement. Yet, I got no excuse from nobody.

Not quite true. This is what I wrote to you after we exchanged a
few angry emails. I thought it was an apology, at least it was
intended as such:


Serge

"Sorry for the harshness in the tone of my last post to you.
I was mistaken about the understanding between you and Dave .
The reason for my impatience is that I wanted to respond, on List
of course, but that would interfere with my agreement with Dave
and the rest of our research group. Would you mind sending your
Updates post to Dave so it can be responded to by me and others?"

<snip>

"I apologize for my unnecessary rudeness and hope you
continue to respond."

Ed









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                What We Have Here is a Failure to Communicate

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 15:01:27 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 15:30:58 -0400
Subject: What We Have Here is a Failure to Communicate


Wendy Conners wrote, in a recent post, of her feelings regarding
the "language" of communication.

Recently I had the pleasure of speaking at great length, to a
man I perceived (up until that point) to be a skeptibunker as
well as a traitor to his previous positive opinion regarding the
abduction phenom. I was wrong. And the reason(s) I was wrong
had nothing to do with language per se. It had to do with my
lack of ability to allow what I was reading and hearing to
penetrate long enough to be able to comprehend meaning. Mia
culpa.

You see, one of the most serious problems Experiencers face is
our emotions, our own memories, which are so real, so
"obviously" real to us as to preclude an attempt to eliminate
other possibilities for the event. Instead, we perceive that
every attempt to establish a more mundane rationale for our
memory is an attempt to debunk. It may be so. But not always. We
are trained like Pavlov's dogs, to salivate with angst at every
opportunity for some _other_ explanation of our experiences.

For example. I perceive that I've been floated through the walls
on a solid blue light, accompanied by three little guys with big
heads, big eyes, etc. I am brought to a craft and examined in
the most personal way, in the most personal places... and much
worse, etc. Who is to say that the entire episode was _not_
merely a dream. Or some other event, the result of some strange,
somnolent state or another.

To me, this is only remotely possible. I must admit that there
_may_ be another, more down to earth explanation, for the
phenomena. If I can admit to that other _ possibility_, then my
skeptical counterpart must also admit to the reality of my
perceptions, as perceived.

Once we've allowed ourselves to arrive at this point, we are
irrevocably bound. The skeptibunker becomes the skeptic. The
experiencer, too, has opened up his or her mind to other
possibilities. Now there is a channel opened up for
communication.

Skeptics allow that we, the experiencers, should open our minds
to other possibilities. Experiencers should reflect the same
upon our detractors, as well as those righteously researching
the phenomena.

Open your minds to the possibility. In lieu of offering at first
breath, an alternative possibility, offer this. "I seek answers
other than alien intervention in our lives. But I admit to the
reality of alien intervention. It's just that to me, this is the
remote possibility."

And we must be able to say the same. "I admit to the possibility
that there may be another explanation. But this other
possibility is remote in my paradigm."

With good reason. It happened. At least to our minds and memory.
It really happened. What happened? I cannot admit to an absolute
truth for my belief.

And so, this inability to communicate may require some other
intervention, some other methodology for our understanding. It
may be as simple as opening our minds. Maybe not to other
realities for our experiences, but to the possibility of same.
And most important of all, to me personally, it allows others to
have other realities, without going ballistic, without rancor,
without abusive behavior, without the need to challenge and
fight. See, that achieves nothing at all. Uh, well, actually it
does achieve something.

Dissonance. Anger. Finger pointing. Hatred. Rants. Etc.

Which would you choose?

One last thought. When one combines a lifetime of events,
memories and a level of silliness, of strange happenings, of
marks on our bodies which are associated with the events ...
then by the simple application of statistical analysis, one
comes to the conclusion that any mundane explanation is highly
remote. But possible.


Jim Mortellaro

Nothing is more sacred than truth - especially truth to ourselves.








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                    Re: Statistics On Hoax Cases? - Vike

From: Brian Vike <yogi@lakesweb.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:35:18 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:04:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Statistics On Hoax Cases? - Vike


 >From: Minna Hyvonen <minna.hyvonen@kolumbus.fi>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Statistics On Hoax Cases?
 >Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 20:07:36 +0300

 >Dear List,

 >Has anyone compiled any statistics about UFO-hoax cases? If so,
 >where could such statistics be found?


Hi List

Talking about "hoaxes", I just got burnt about a month and a
half ago. I received a sighting report, from two independent
people in terrace, British Columbia.

I contacted each of them by telephone, to set up an interview on
the same day. Well after making arraignments I headed off on a 3
hour drive from Houston to Terrace. After arriving in Terrace,
and spending the whole day talking to each of these fellows, and
a bit of shopping, I turned around for a 3 hour drive back home.

As a researcher said to me, it sounded to good to be true. I had
two people reporting the same craft over and around Terrace. I
got home and started to go through the tape I had recorded from
the two of them. I started to think about the whole thing, and
picked up the telephone and called another guy in Terrace, B.C.
to see if he had heard anything about this sighting. To my
surprise he said "yes"! After I explained who I had interviewed,
the two names popped up of these fellows. He told me they had
stopped to see him, asking where to make a report, since they
knew him and knew he was into all this stuff. Of course he gave
them the information they required, and as they were leaving,
they told him the whole thing was a joke.

My friend could not get a hold of me at the time, so I got the
contacted by these 2 goofs first, and off I went before I could
get warned.

Anyway, there are certainly a lot going around, and is certainly
hard to filter the bad ones out. After I got stuck with egg on
my face, and a long drive, I now do my best to gather
information before leaving for an interview. Well as much as I
can before heading out. I have found that my media contacts have
been really helpful to some degree, but of course they have to
hear about something strange that has taken place.

I guess it was a good experience for me, keeps me on my toes
from now on. I am sure like many of you, get emails telling
about a sighting and giving a number to call. well I always
write back asking for a little information about the event
before I pick up the phone. In a lot of cases, I don't get a
reply to my email, so I am certainly not willing to call.

I am sure everyone who investigates UFOs would have a few
stories kicking around about being hoaxed. So maybe this would
be for good reading if nothing else.


Take good care,

Brian










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             Re: Position Statement on Alien Abduction - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:33:22 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:09:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Position Statement on Alien Abduction - Connors


I would like to share with the List members and anyone else who
might be interested the following actual personal event.

Not so long ago I awoke from a troubled sleep. During the night
I experienced a weight upon my chest and difficulty breathing,
but I didn't really wake up... just "felt" it. The following
morning I noticed three small cuts on my right knee. These cuts
looked evenly spaced, of approximately the same length and were
parallel, one to the other. I noticed a blood stain on my pillow
and looking in the bathroom mirror, I noticed that blood was on
my upper lip.

Certainly sounds like an unremembered alien abduction event. I
mean, I've read of similar incidents in the abduction literature
and the thought did cross my mind. However, being the yo-yo I
am, I dismissed it from my thoughts and continued on with my
day.

Several more times I would have the same feeling of a heavy
weight on my chest and find blood on my pillow when I awoke.
"Ummm," I said to myself. "Maybe these little grey goobers
people talk about are messing with me and I don't realize it."
Back to the literature I went. Sure enough, similar events have
been reported.

Now, I ask you, how on earth can anyone ignore this since it
happened several times. I'm not usually prone to going off the
deep end, but the incidents were very disturbing in a
psychological sort of way. Enough so that I couldn't flippantly
dismiss it any more. It had happened several times. The funny
part was, that I didn't remember anything about being taken
aboard a space craft or having real nasties done to me, but
something weird was going on.

Well, I found out what I was experiencing. You see, I am a
brittle asthmatic and have been for years. I use an aerosol
inhaler that contains medication to keep my airways open. Over
the years, I reach for the inhaler several times during the
night and have done so much, that I actually do so without
really waking up or remembering I did so. But, being an
asthmatic, the weight on my chest was heavier than what I
normally experience when my bronchial tubes tighten up and begin
to close.

Now, I have this damnably wonderful cat, named Dingus T. McGee.
Dingus, for 13 years has always slept down around my ankles. He
learned that was his place, because even though I am not
allergic to him, having him to close to my face will, after
awhile, trigger an asthma episode. So, after all these years
you'd think he would be set in his ways and vary his normal
routine. Not so, however. I had purchased a new night gown with
a longer than usual ribbon that hung from the front of the
collar. The little creep had been crawling up on my chest (all
18 pounds of him) and playing with the ribbon (OK, I'm a big
person <G>).

But, what about the scratches that one time and the several
incidents of blood on my pillow? Well, that's kinda funny too. I
couldn't understand what that was all about. I got to the bottom
of the weight issue on my chest, but darned if I could figure
out why blood kept appearing on my pillow periodically. First
there was blood on my lip, then I find blood on my left ear. How
very strange.

It didn't take long to figure out what was going on with the
blood incident. I had purchased two feather pillows (cheap ones
from Wal Mart... hey, I ain't exactly Bill Gates, ya know) and
assiduously put them into anti-allergen cases, followed by
pillow cases. As I laid my head down I got the biggest poke...
like somebody drove an ice pick into my left ear. I raised up my
head faster than lightning and saw a splotch of blood on the
pillow and felt blood on my ear. Sure enough, cheap feather
pillows ain't all soft down from birds that quack and honk... no
siree! Cheap feather pillows sometimes contain pretty large
feathers and there was a quill sticking out of the pillow like a
candle in a cake!

Second concern tackled. But, what of the scratches? Well, I got
an itchy back... so I have three or four back scratchers laying
around the house and one next to my bed. That one is one of
those really cheapy plastic jobbers you get at the dollar store.
My other ones are made of bamboo. Seems like plastic back
scratcher had been on the bed, hidden under the covers and sure
enough, the prongs matched exactly the marks on my knee.

The moral of this story? There really isn't one, except, being
human we sometimes can imagine all sorts of things. I tell this
because I have been thinking about a "Experiencers" and how
harrowing their incidents must be. But, taking the middle of
road approach, I wonder if sometimes, just sometimes, an
"Experiencer" might think those little grey goobers (blue
ones,too), visited that night, when really they didn't this time
around. Being gun shy comes from being burned one time too many.

Anyway, for what it's worth. Please, don't inundate me with
emails. <G>


Wendy Connors









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                   Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:51:49 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 17:58:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse - Salvaille


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse
 >Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:29:03 -0700

 >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Same Song, Second Verse
 >>Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:57:52 -0400

<snip>

 >>You have defended Vetterick and the AA CD program even when the
 >>means to the ends involved attacking reputations.

 >>In this case, mine.

 >>It has been demonstrated that I had been falsely accused of
 >>breaking an agreement. Yet, I got no excuse from nobody.

 >Not quite true. This is what I wrote to you after we exchanged a
 >few angry emails. I thought it was an apology, at least it was
 >intended as such:


 >Serge

 >"Sorry for the harshness in the tone of my last post to you.
 >I was mistaken about the understanding between you and Dave .
 >The reason for my impatience is that I wanted to respond, on List
 >of course, but that would interfere with my agreement with Dave
 >and the rest of our research group. Would you mind sending your
 >Updates post to Dave so it can be responded to by me and others?"

 ><snip>

 >"I apologize for my unnecessary rudeness and hope you
 >continue to respond."

<snip>

Ed,

Let's not conveniently re-write history, shall we?

On September 5, I received an email from you starting with: "I
don't mind an act of anarchy but you made an agreement to abide
by the etiquette that Dave explained; otherwise I wouldn't have
sent you a set of AA CDs. Please adopt those guidelines for your
next posting and please repost your comments to Dave so I can
respond."

Your reaction had been triggered by my September 4 post on "AA
Puppet".

I immediately replied to you with a quote from the August 2
agreement. My reply was all but hostile.

You "apology" came on September 6.

Blame it on Rebecca, the subject came back on the Updates on
September 23.

The AA CD proposal came from Dave Vetterick, Neil Morris and Ed
Gehrman. The AA CD group accused me of violating an agreement: a
false accusation.

You never apologized for your September 26 insinuation. Neil
Morris, although open to discussion, seems to have been gagged
in the process.

Don't think your hands are any cleaner because you guys
obviously let Dave do the dirty work.

And we wouldn't be having this discussion if Dave had not tried
a cheap shot on Rebecca.

Are we gonna put this one to rest?

Regards,










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   Oct > Oct 12

                  Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 23:15:04 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 18:48:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Rimmer


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:40:19 -0500

 >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:01:11 +0200

 >>Well, we could also consider Greek semi-gods (like Hercules)
 >>hybrid beings. And, what did the B.E.M.s of the SF pulps in the
 >>30s have in mind abducting so many damsels? Peter Rogerson
 >>wrote a series of articles in Magonia about the precedents of
 >>abduction up to the Hills.

 >Of course, as Eddie Bullard has stated repeatedly, claiming a
 >pedigree and demonstrating one are entirely different matters.
 >So far, all I see in this sort of psychosocial guesswork is the
 >former.  Has anybody demonstrated that CE3 witnesses were
 >students of Greek mythology or immersed in 30s pulp science-
 >fiction arcana?  I don't think so.

 >In any event, unless you're claiming that all CE3 claimants who
 >reported what we might now interpret as hybrid beings were
 >lying, the theory you seem to be proposing makes no sense. We're
 >talking about experiences, sometimes multiply or independently
 >witnessed, not ideas and images extant only in mental space.  I
 >find Villas-Boas's anticipation of sexual abductions, plus its
 >implied hybrid being, interesting, and even more so in the
 >context of later sexual abductions and in the unremarked-upon
 >context of early CE3 experiences of humanlike entities.


Jerry,

I don't know if you're doing this deliberatly to provoke an
argument, but you know as well as I do that Luis - or any other
psycho- social ufologist - is not suggesting that CE3 claimants
are steeped in 1930's pulp science fiction, any more than most
1930's pulp writers were scholars of Greek mythology. Beliefs in
human-alien hybrids are a common feature of the mythology of
many ages and societies. Medieval peasants' were familiar with
beliefs in demonic-human coupling; they did not have to read
Greek legends to have these ideas, any more than modern
abductees need to. Tales of fairy changlings and supernatural
abductions from the eighteen and nineteenth centuries are not
dependent on those reporting them being familiar with ancient
Assyrian creation myths. The psycho-social point is that these
beliefs arise independently in _all_ cultures at _all_ times -
including ours.

Now there's two ways of looking at this: you can say that all
these tales are the results of actual meetings and interbreeding
between humans and real, physical aliens but reported using the
familiar imagery of the period. Some people, indeed, do believe
this. I think it's a silly idea, but it does at least have the
virtue of consistency.

The other way of looking at it is that all cultures produce
these legends, for a variety of reasons - mostly as a way of
explaining otherwise puzzling events or rationalising abberant
aspects of human behaviour - and the form of the legend is
determined by the nature and structure of the culture, its
religious beliefs, the level of scientific knowledge and the way
in which such knowledge is disseminated and mediated. And we're
not talking 'literary criticism' here, as David Hufford has
clearly demonstrated, we are dealing with actual human
experiences.

Oh, I forgot. There's a third, Jerry Clark, way of explaining
this. All _other_ cultures have had mythologies and folk beliefs
about human- supernatural intercourse (both social and sexual),
but uniquely, not _ours_. Such tales which arise in our era are
the result of actual alien encounters. The trouble is that here
Jerry is being the rather chauvinistic Literary Critic - because
he cannot accept that these earlier tales in other societies
were also, in most part, accounts of real experiences undergone
by real people - not "ideas and images extant only in mental
space". And he seems unable to accept that modern Westernised
people - people rather like Jerry Clark - could have the same
sorts of subjective experiences as earlier generations or those
living in other societies.

I have been typing up Peter Rogerson articles, "A Revisionist
History of Abductions" which Luis refers to, for posting on the
Magonia website. I shall have to redouble my efforts to do this,
and let UpDates readers know when they are available.


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk












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   Oct > Oct 13

               Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID System

From: Kurt Jonach <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 01:07:12 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 08:39:33 -0400
Subject: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID System


------------------------------------------------------------

The Electric Warrior : News October 13, 2001
http://www.electricwarrior.com/news/ewNews0033.htm

------------------------------------------------------------
�TECHNOLOGY LEADERS PONDER FINGERPRINT ID SYSTEM
technology news
by The Electric Warrior

*** Two high-tech CEOs say their technology supports a national
ID system, now gaining favor in response to the recent terrorist
attacks ***

The chairman and CEO of Sun Microsystems, Scott McNealy, thinks
the United States needs a national identification system.

Speaking to reporters at a high-tech symposium in Orlando,
Florida, McNealy touted the Java computer platform developed by
Sun, with statements sure to grab the attention of anyone even
mildly interested in privacy or civil liberties.

"Absolute anonymity breeds absolute irresponsibility," said
McNealy. "We need a thumbprint Java card in the hand of
everybody in the country."

The smart-card ID system would be accessed by computers in
places like airports, shopping malls, and any other location
where, according to McNealy, anonymity could be dangerous.

As reported by Reuters, "McNealy said it would be the job of
Congress to decide when people can be anonymous and when they
cannot."

THE ILLUSION OF PRIVACY

McNealy isn't the first high-tech CEO to suggest that technology
offered by his company could empower a national identity system.
Last month Oracle CEO Larry Ellison said his company would
provide the software for such a fingerprint-based system, for
free.

"We need a national ID card with our photograph and thumbprint
digitized and embedded in the ID card,'' said Ellison, speaking
with typical candor during a televised interview in San
Francisco.

Ellison argues that in a computerized and globally networked
world, there isn't much privacy left anyway.

"Well, this privacy you're concerned about is largely an
illusion,'' said Ellison. "All you have to give up is your
illusions, not any of your privacy."

As reported online by Silicon Valley.com, "Oracle has a
longstanding relationship with the federal government. Indeed,
the CIA was Ellison's first customer, and the company's name
stems from a CIA-funded project launched in the mid-1970s that
sought better ways of storing and retrieving digital data."

MUST PRIVACY BE SACRIFICED?

Does our nation inevitably give up privacy and freedom as
government agencies tighten the screws on terrorism? That's the
question Red Herring's Rafe Needleman put to members of the
Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF).

Needleman, who writes a daily column offering investment advice
to the high-tech community, said  Lee Tien, and attorney for the
EFF cast the subject in terms he could easily understand.

"Speaking my language, he makes the point that government is
entrepreneurial: any strong agency will take advantage of the
right situation to further its mission. The mission of the FBI,
for example, is to catch bad guys, not to protect privacy. Given
a chance to increase its powers, it's to be expected that it
will try to widely deploy new tools like the ISP snoop
Carnivore."

Carnivore, presumably named for its ability to consume networked
data, is an electronic surveillance system developed by the FBI.
The system is being used in the war against terrorism, under
newly enacted federal wiretap legislation.

Officially renamed DCS1000, the unfortunate name has stuck. In
the wake of the recent World Trade Center catastrophe, Wired
News reported, "An administrator at one major network service
provider said that FBI agents showed up at his workplace on
Tuesday 'with a couple of Carnivores.'"

------------------------------------------------------------
RELATED RESOURCES

11-Oct-01 Sun's McNealy: Time for a national ID card

http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2817399,00.html?chkpt=zdnnp1tp02

[ZDNet News]-- Scott McNealy, chairman and CEO of Sun Microsystems
Inc., said Thursday his long-held belief the United States needs
a national identity system has gained a lot of traction since
the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.


22-Sep-01 Oracle boss urges national ID cards, offers free software

http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/news/svfront/ellsn092301.htm

[SiliconValley.com]-- Broaching a controversial subject that has
gained visibility since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, Oracle
Chairman and CEO Larry Ellison is calling for the United States
to create a national identification card system - and offering
to donate the software to make it possible.

12-Oct-01 Catch of the Day: Just doing their jobs

http://www.redherring.com/index.asp?layout=story&channel=80000008&doc_id=1480020
348

[Red Herring]-- Fortunately, both police and legislature in this
country are ultimately counterbalanced by the courts, which can
compel agencies to honor the U.S. Constitution, in particular
the 4th Amendment... Initiatives like Carnivore are dangerous
but not inherently wrong. Criminals use technology, and so can
police. What remains to be seen is whether technology can serve
both national interests and constitutional rights.

------------------------------------------------------------
THE ELECTRIC WARRIOR
October 13, 2001
Silicon Valley, CA
http://www.electricwarrior.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Web developers, the URL address for this content is:
http://www.electricwarrior.com/news/ewNews0033.htm

Permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this article
or any portion thereof, provided The Electric Warrior is cited
as the source.

Images are created exclusively for the Electric Warrior Website.
They can be downloaded and cached for individual use, but may
not be reproduced or used in any other context without
permission.

eWarrior@electricwarrior.com









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   Oct > Oct 13

                  Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 04:04:36 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 08:43:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez
 >Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:35:40 +0200

 >>Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:47:42 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction

 >Hello John,

 >You wrote

 >>The first known (reported) case of UFO abduction and it was
 >>never investigated on the spot where it happened, nor properly
 >>recorded or documented. I'd laugh if it wasn't so sad.

 >I do not explain myself properly. Vilas Boas was interviewed at
 >length by Dr. Fontes and Martins about 4 months after the
 >incident. This happened in Rio de Janeiro (not in Sao Paulo as I
 >wrote before). The SBEDV investigation team did visit Vilas Boas
 >at home, in San Francisco de Sales, and visited the place of the
 >incident but 5 years later and without interviewing any
 >additional family member, etc.

Hello Luis,

You wrote:

 >On the main question, I strongly agree with you in that bedroon
 >visitors are a different phenomena from UFO abductions, or at
 >least, should be analized differently. But...
 >
 >Let us center in your own case (as I read it in Brookesmith's
 >'Alien Abductions'). Let's accept for the sake of the argument
 >that you did see a non-human craft in Brooklyn that night. Even
 >though, you yourself did not qualify as an abductee, because
 >you did _not_ have conscious recall of being abducted.

1. Peter left out a lot of details that would not have fit in
very well with his "theory" (explanation) for that event. What
you are reading in Peter's book is not the complete report.

2. The "abduction" part of the story came out during a hypnosis
session. I have already stated repeatedly on this List my own
attitudes towards hypnosis and any material that is recovered by
that method. I don't automatically discount it, but I do not put
much stock in it either. I rely on what I can recall
consciously. On what happened to me while I was wide awake and
aware.

3. I do have (many) conscious recollections spread throughout my
lifetime (beginning in childhood) that involve bald, large
headed, little grey men with large black eyes. My "memories" are
not _all_ derived from that one event in Brooklyn.

 >You panicked, started running, and "the next second, it's
 >daylight, and I'm sitting bolt upright in bed. It's 7 o�clock in
 >the morning. And I've got blood all over me (...) and my eye is
 >out here, very red and swollen, and the white of the eye is
 >completely red". You were not mugged because all your valuables
 >were still in your pants (One question: Did you awake dressed,
 >even with your shoes on?).

No. I had on my underwear, and a blood stained tee-shirt. My
clothes were in a heap on the floor. No blood on my outer
garments. Only my tee-shirt. (Which was covered by a short
sleeve shirt during the events of the night before.

And, my statement that I had not been "mugged" was not based on
whether my "valuables" as you put it, were still in my pants.
The doctor in the emergency room told me that the swelling of
the eye was not caused by "trauma." That I had not been struck.
I had told the doctor that I thought I had been mugged only
because I could not recall anything that happened after that
moment when I was fleeing from the UFO. It was the only
explanation that made any sense to me so that is what I told the
physician. It was he that caused me to question it when he told
me that no, I had not been "hit" by anything and that it didn't
appear to be "infected" either.

He also asked me about the "surgical" procedure that had been
performed on me (inside my head/sinuses) after looking up my
nose to try to determine the source of the nose bleeding. I told
him that I had never had _any_ surgery in my head. He called on
an ENT specialist (eye, nose and throat) to also have a look at
me and the second doctor (the "psecialist") asked me the same
question. I told him the same thing I told the first one. I have
_never_ had any surgery inside my head. They both became annoyed
with me as if I was holding back personal medical information
from them intentionally.

Listen man, I've been over and over the details of that night at
least 100,000 times in my own head. Trying to find an answer. At
no other time in my life has such a thing as this happened to
me. Where I am in a certain place doing a certain thing one
moment, and from one split-second to the next, unaccounted hours
have passed, and I find myself someplace else from where I
started.

That "UFO" I saw was not very far away from me either. 60 ft I'd
say. Close enough to know that I was not seeing anything
_conventional_ and to cause me to run like hell away from it.
That 'thing' was no hallucination or weather balloon. I have an
illustration of the sighting posted at:

http://www.spacelab.net/~jvif/myart3.htm

 >I have proposed that you might simply had trip over a rubbish
 >can and some foreign substance (solid or liquid) may have
 >entered your eye and produced an allergic reaction.

See the diagnosis of (two) physicians above and save your
tripped over rubbish "theories" for some 'other' abduction
report.  :)

 >You yourself admitted that the physiological imposibility of having
 >a eye "laying on the cheek" made your statement under hypnosis
 >just a  sensation, not a fact.

What I said was that it "felt like" my eye was out and laying on
my cheek during the procedure that was performed by the grey
being. That I thought that something like that was
physiologically impossible. I had that fact confirmed by a
physician I consulted. That is why I adopted the position that I
thought that recollection was questionable. I don't know for
sure what was done to my eye or by whom. Only that 'something'
_was_done_, by 'someone'.

 >Not everybody who sees a UFO, even at a short distance is
 >abducted. Why did you think that part of your experience is
 >real?

Because of the sequence of events Luis.

1. I see a "UFO" up close and personal.

2. I become frightened and I started to run for my front door.

3. One second it is night and I am running from a "UFO", and
then without _any_ sensation of time passing, the very next
micro-second it is morning, I am in my bed, my clothes are off,
and I have a badly swollen eye and I'm bleeding from the nose.
All from one moment to the very next.

You add 2+2 and tell me what you come up with.

Close-up UFO encounter + a whole night of missing time + several
rather severe 'unexplained' physical symptoms.

Mind you, that even under hypnosis, I recalled the details of
the conscious part of the event accurately and the "abduction"
part came up/out 'in sequence' followed again by accurate
recollection of the subsequent consciously recalled events. It
was a 'seamless' sequence of events. (including the missing
time) Not the bits and pieces mish-mosh that you wish to
perceive it was.

Your "explanations" would be interesting to consider were it not
for the fact that I was examined and diagnosed by two physicians
within hours of the event. If you want to argue with their
(educated) opinions you would need to take that up with them. I
can only go by what I was told. (Emergency room/Lutheran
Hospital, 57th Street and Second Avenue in Sunset Park,
Brooklyn. August of 1977)

It all started in childhood Luis. You would need to explain a
_lot_ more than just the odd events of that one night to even
begin to address the number and consistency of these events in
my life. It's not a case of one oddball, isolated incident. But
of many, sprinkled liberally over a lifetime.

Garbage in the eye eh?  Nice try Luis.  ;)


Regards,

John Velez

                      A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                      www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                               johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
    "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









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   Oct > Oct 13

                  Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 09:37:49 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 11:37:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Randle


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:40:19 -0500

 >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:01:11 +0200

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:13:34 -0500


 >Hi, Luis,

 >>>An admittedly every specialized fantasy, involving among - other
 >>>erotic elements - vomiting. I think the rest of us will count
 >>>that among the less probable explanations for Villas-Boas's
 >>>story.

 >>Of course, you are entitled to think so. My bet would be a tall
 >>tale on the chemist which backfired.

 >Based, exactly, on what evidence?

 >>>To me the case is interesting as one that, long before Budd
 >>>Hopkins's investigations brought the concept into the abduction
 >>>controversy, suggests the presence of hybrid beings. At least it
 >>>is consistent with that hypothesis, as are the surprising number
 >>>of early CE3s (unremarked on by any ufologist, as far as I know,
 >>>until I discussed it in my UFO Encyclopedia) wherein human or
 >>>near-human entities are described.

 >>Well, we could also consider Greek semi-gods (like Hercules)
 >>hybrid beings. And, what did the B.E.M.s of the SF pulps in the
 >>30s have in mind abducting so many damsels? Peter Rogerson
 >>wrote a series of articles in Magonia about the precedents of
 >>abduction up to the Hills.

 >Of course, as Eddie Bullard has stated repeatedly, claiming a
 >pedigree and demonstrating one are entirely different matters.
 >So far, all I see in this sort of psychosocial guesswork is the
 >former.  Has anybody demonstrated that CE3 witnesses were
 >students of Greek mythology or immersed in 30s pulp science-
 >fiction arcana?  I don't think so.


Hi Jerry, List, All -

I want to comment only on this one, small aspect of the debate,
which is that I don't believe that you must be a student of
Greek mythology or immersed in 30s pulp science fiction arcana
to be aware of some of those stories or images. I believe that
this is, for the lack of a better term, a collective
unconscious, in which this stuff floats... the idea of an urban
myth might be a good example of this. Stories that seem to
circulate with no home, no real written foundation but are out
there, spreading from person to person and community to
community. I remember, back in the early 70s people collecting
cigarette packages because there was an urban myth that the
cigarette companies would buy iron lungs as the packages were
redeemed.

Or, as an example from my own reason past... I don't watch South
Park, but when a question on Who Wants To Be A Millionaire was
asked about which character dies in almost every show, I knew
the answer was Kenny. I had seen something or heard something
that gave me that answer, proving, I suppose, that we do pick up
things without being aware of it.

All this means is that a person who didn't study Greek
mythology, or 30s science fiction, might (and I stress the
might) have picked up something or heard something that provided
a clue. This just shows that the information was "out there" to
coin a phrase, and because it was, there might have been some
contamination. Again, might have been.....

And this is not to say that everyone was contaminated, or that
the basis for the CEIIIs was science fiction or pop culture. At
the MUFON Symposium in 1996 I attempted to make this point,
which is, we can't just say that the connection doesn't exist
because there seems to be no precedent for it. To break the
connection, we must do a little better.


KRandle









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   Oct > Oct 13

                Chupacabras Have Been In Chile Since The 70s

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 10:44:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 11:43:41 -0400
Subject: Chupacabras Have Been In Chile Since The 70s


Chilean Government Employee: "Chupacabras have been in Chile
since 1970's"

10-12-01

A local Calama municipal employee has stated that the
Chupacabra-related phenomena occurring in Northern Chile are
nothing new. She personally witnessed mysterious deaths of
domestic animals during her childhood. According to her
testimony, the event took place when she was only 6 or 7 years
of age, in 1970 or 1971. She witnessed the appearance of a
strange creature when she went for a walk with her 10-year-old
sister. Nevertheless, the entity that she describes was not all
that similar to the typical blood predator; in her case, it was
a serpent-like creature.


EYEWITNESS ACCOUNT

During that time, I lived with my parents in a small rural
village near the San Pedro and San Pablo volcanoes. This
mountain region is located at about 230 kilometers from Calama.

I remember walking with my sister one afternoon near a brook
where our lamas used to go to drink water. Suddenly, we saw a
large serpent that did not crawl; instead, it seemed to fly
slightly above the ground at a great speed. It was so fast that
it left a trail of dust like the roadrunner cartoon characters.
Due to our childhood innocence and curiosity, we decided to
follow it but it was too fast and it disappeared.

The following morning, my father went out to feed the lamas. To
his surprise, he found 10 of them dead. Coincidently, all of the
dead lamas were pregnant and they all died the same way � with a
neck wound.

My father blamed the strange deaths on the military. He was very
suspicious of some troops that coincidently, were patrolling the
towns nearby. My father was very angry because all of the
pregnant lamas were dead. In an effort to save some of the meat,
my mother decided to cut open five of them. It was then when she
realized that the animals did not have a drop of blood in their
bodies. The orifice in the neck area of the animals did not have
an exit wound. Furthermore, no bullets were found inside the
neck; in fact, that was the very reason why my father could not
sustain a case against the military troops. He could not find
bullet projectiles inside the bodies; therefore, he did not have
enough evidence to sustain his claim.

The next day, my mother cooked the dead lama meat. When we began
eating it, we all noticed a horrible taste. I remember all of us
complained about the bad taste of our lunch.

The other 5 lamas were still outside, in the same place where
they died. Vultures and condors soon began to arrive to feed on
the dead animals. Nevertheless, they too rejected the lama meat.
They began acting strange, flapping their wings against their
chest very violently. Some of the birds vomited shortly after
they ate. We have never seen anything like that.


Jaime Ferrer R.
Calama UFO Center
Translated by Mario Andrade

-----

Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center
ufomiami@prodigy.net <mailto:ufomiami@prodigy.net>









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   Oct > Oct 13

                Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 12:02:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 13:22:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID


 >From: Kurt Jonach <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
 >To: <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
 >Subject: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID System
 >Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 01:07:12 -0700

 >------------------------------------------------------------

 >The Electric Warrior : News October 13, 2001
 >http://www.electricwarrior.com/news/ewNews0033.htm

 >------------------------------------------------------------
 >TECHNOLOGY LEADERS PONDER FINGERPRINT ID SYSTEM
 >technology news
 >by The Electric Warrior

 >*** Two high-tech CEOs say their technology supports a national
 >ID system, now gaining favor in response to the recent terrorist
 >attacks ***

 >The chairman and CEO of Sun Microsystems, Scott McNealy, thinks
 >the United States needs a national identification system.

 >Speaking to reporters at a high-tech symposium in Orlando,
 >Florida, McNealy touted the Java computer platform developed by
 >Sun, with statements sure to grab the attention of anyone even
 >mildly interested in privacy or civil liberties.

 >"Absolute anonymity breeds absolute irresponsibility," said
 >McNealy. "We need a thumbprint Java card in the hand of
 >everybody in the country."

 >The smart-card ID system would be accessed by computers in
 >places like airports, shopping malls, and any other location
 >where, according to McNealy, anonymity could be dangerous.

 >As reported by Reuters, "McNealy said it would be the job of
 >Congress to decide when people can be anonymous and when they
 >cannot."

 >THE ILLUSION OF PRIVACY

 >McNealy isn't the first high-tech CEO to suggest that technology
 >offered by his company could empower a national identity system.
 >Last month Oracle CEO Larry Ellison said his company would
 >provide the software for such a fingerprint-based system, for
 >free.

 >"We need a national ID card with our photograph and thumbprint
 >digitized and embedded in the ID card,'' said Ellison, speaking
 >with typical candor during a televised interview in San
 >Francisco.

 >Ellison argues that in a computerized and globally networked
 >world, there isn't much privacy left anyway.

 >"Well, this privacy you're concerned about is largely an
 >illusion,'' said Ellison. "All you have to give up is your
 >illusions, not any of your privacy."

 >As reported online by Silicon Valley.com, "Oracle has a
 >longstanding relationship with the federal government. Indeed,
 >the CIA was Ellison's first customer, and the company's name
 >stems from a CIA-funded project launched in the mid-1970s that
 >sought better ways of storing and retrieving digital data."

 >MUST PRIVACY BE SACRIFICED?

 >Does our nation inevitably give up privacy and freedom as
 >government agencies tighten the screws on terrorism? That's the
 >question Red Herring's Rafe Needleman put to members of the
 >Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF).

 >Needleman, who writes a daily column offering investment advice
 >to the high-tech community, said  Lee Tien, and attorney for the
 >EFF cast the subject in terms he could easily understand.

 >"Speaking my language, he makes the point that government is
 >entrepreneurial: any strong agency will take advantage of the
 >right situation to further its mission. The mission of the FBI,
 >for example, is to catch bad guys, not to protect privacy. Given
 >a chance to increase its powers, it's to be expected that it
 >will try to widely deploy new tools like the ISP snoop
 >Carnivore."

 >Carnivore, presumably named for its ability to consume networked
 >data, is an electronic surveillance system developed by the FBI.
 >The system is being used in the war against terrorism, under
 >newly enacted federal wiretap legislation.

 >Officially renamed DCS1000, the unfortunate name has stuck. In
 >the wake of the recent World Trade Center catastrophe, Wired
 >News reported, "An administrator at one major network service
 >provider said that FBI agents showed up at his workplace on
 >Tuesday 'with a couple of Carnivores.'"


Hi Kurt, hi All,

"Carnivore"? "Soldiers, police, and armaments" being paraded on
the streets of the one of the largest cities in the world?
Welcome to the 'New World Order' kiddies.

It's spooky here in New York now-a-days. I can understand the
need for _some_ National Guard soldiers to be aiding police
efforts in Manhattan near to the site of the tragedy, but what
are _armed_ soldiers doing on the streets of Brooklyn?

My wife works in the 'downtown' (business) district of Brooklyn.
Everyday, she tells me stories about how the entire area is
besieged by "soldiers, police" and "cement barricades". People
are being directed and stopped on the street, or while entering
or leaving buildings and forced to produce identification.

My son told me that he had witnessed a military jeep driving on
a major avenue in Manhattan with a small cannon in tow. _What_,
if not for pure psychological effect, would be the reason or
justification for that? To shoot something down over the city?
If the airborne target of such a weapon had damage to the city
as its objective, wouldn't shooting it down _over_ the city
pretty much assist a wouldbe attacker in his/her goal? It would
rain fiery debris on the people and buildings below.

Just why the hell are they parading _cannons_ on the streets of
New York? It doesn't make me feel 'safe' at all, if _that_ is
the intention. In fact, it scares the hell out of me because it
makes me think, "Police State".

Now there is talk of "Carnivore" and a "National I.D. System".

We've all got be real careful here and keep our radar tuned.
Just to make sure that our personal freedoms don't _all_ get
sold down the river in the name of "increased "security".

There is a fine line here between Democracy and Totalitarian
State. Let's all walk it with our eyes wide open. No BS. Parts
of Downtown Brooklyn are a lot like 1930's Nazi Germany these
days. It's one thing to increase security so that people can
begin to feel 'safe'. (Which is just selling an illusion
anyway.) It is quite another to allow ourselves to be stopped
willy-nilly in the streets of our own cities by weapon carrying
soldiers and then having to produce our "papers" upon demand.
Sounds like an old war movie eh?


 From New York. And more than just a bit concerned,

John Velez

                      A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                      www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                               johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
    "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."








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   Oct > Oct 13

                  Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 12:16:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 13:24:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Clark


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 09:37:49 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:40:19 -0500

 >>>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:01:11 +0200

 >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>>Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:13:34 -0500


Hi, Kevin,

 >>>Well, we could also consider Greek semi-gods (like Hercules)
 >>>hybrid beings. And, what did the B.E.M.s of the SF pulps in the
 >>>30s have in mind abducting so many damsels? Peter Rogerson
 >>>wrote a series of articles in Magonia about the precedents of
 >>>abduction up to the Hills.

 >I want to comment only on this one, small aspect of the debate,
 >which is that I don't believe that you must be a student of
 >Greek mythology or immersed in 30s pulp science fiction arcana
 >to be aware of some of those stories or images. I believe that
 >this is, for the lack of a better term, a collective
 >unconscious, in which this stuff floats... the idea of an urban
 >myth might be a good example of this. Stories that seem to
 >circulate with no home, no real written foundation but are out
 >there, spreading from person to person and community to
 >community. I remember, back in the early 70s people collecting
 >cigarette packages because there was an urban myth that the
 >cigarette companies would buy iron lungs as the packages were
 >redeemed.

I just don't see the relevance of this, my friend. Folklorists
acknowledge that there is a whole lot of difference between a
story in oral circulation (even in a far more robust tradition
than, as I understand you, you're proposing here) on one hand
and on the other someone's claimed personal experience. They
even have a word for the latter: memorates. At a folklore
conference I attended some years ago on the subject (at the
University of Nebraska in Omaha), I heard no small number of
folklorists express puzzlement at memorates, and some had even
openly embraced the reality of the anomalous phenomena in
question because among their informants were many seemingly
sane, credible individuals who had personal encounters to
relate.

In fact, most folklorists believe that even the most outlandish
folklore (e.g., that concerning fantastic creatures such as
merbeings and fairies) may grow out of experiences, or perceived
experiences, and not the other way around. Sometimes (as in at
least two centuries' worth of reports of hairy bipeds in
Newfoundland) there is no accompanying folk tradition. David
Hufford has pointed out that though the Old Hag experience is
common in the United States, Americans historically have had no
name for it; only those who actually experienced the phenomenon
knew of it. In other words, it's at least as likely that seeing
is believing than that believing is seeing.

In any event, I _wish_ people knew more about classic Greek
mythology. If we did, we'd have a smarter, more literate
population than the one we're living in.

 >Or, as an example from my own reason past... I don't watch South
 >Park, but when a question on Who Wants To Be A Millionaire was
 >asked about which character dies in almost every show, I knew
 >the answer was Kenny. I had seen something or heard something
 >that gave me that answer, proving, I suppose, that we do pick up
 >things without being aware of it.

Again, Kevin, this really isn't the point we're discussing. In
any case, South Park, even for us nonviewers, is a far more
visible presence in our popular culture than Greek gods or 30s
SF- magazine arcana.

 >All this means is that a person who didn't study Greek
 >mythology, or 30s science fiction, might (and I stress the
 >might) have picked up something or heard something that provided
 >a clue. This just shows that the information was "out there" to
 >coin a phrase, and because it was, there might have been some
 >contamination. Again, might have been.....

We can speculate endlessly if we're not held to questions of
evidence, of course. For me, I remain skeptical of any claim -
which I've yet to see demonstrated by anything but ex cathedra
declaration - of a link between 1930s pulp SF and modern-day
CE3 _experiences_.

I might add, as long as I have the floor for a moment, that for
about 10 years (roughly 1957-1967) I was immersed in SF and read
the stuff by the carload, everything from the current writers to
many who came before. You could see that in a sense I _was_
immersed in SF arcana. Even though I haven't read SF in a long
time, I can still discuss it reasonably intelligently (at least
up till the late '60s). As I've followed the abduction
phenomenon since, I haven't seen a whole lot that reminds me of
the stories and motifs in which I lived during a particularly
impressionable time in my life. Any resemblance strikes me as
more likely coincidental - given the vast SF literature dealing
with human/ET interaction - and probably meaningless.

It seems to me that SF is more productively studied in a UFO
context as one way to determine possible sources on which
hoaxers can draw. In the 1950s, for example, one writer exposed
the roots of SF reader George Hunt Williamson's contactee
cosmology in Isaac Asimov's Foundation series. The fit was
undeniable, and the exposer didn't have to draw on something as
nebulous (and as dubiously extant) as the "collective
unconscious."


Cordially,

Jerry Clark











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   Oct > Oct 13

                Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID

From: Kurt Jonach <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 10:54:42 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 14:57:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID


 >Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 12:02:30 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID System

 >Hi Kurt, hi All,

 >"Carnivore"? "Soldiers, police, and armaments" being paraded on
 >the streets of the one of the largest cities in the world?
 >Welcome to the 'New World Order' kiddies.

 >It's spooky here in New York now-a-days. I can understand the
 >need for _some_ National Guard soldiers to be aiding police
 >efforts in Manhattan near to the site of the tragedy, but what
 >are _armed_ soldiers doing on the streets of Brooklyn?

 >My wife works in the 'downtown' (business) district of Brooklyn.
 >Everyday, she tells me stories about how the entire area is
 >besieged by "soldiers, police" and "cement barricades". People
 >are being directed and stopped on the street, or while entering
 >or leaving buildings and forced to produce identification.

 >My son told me that he had witnessed a military jeep driving on
 >a major avenue in Manhattan with a small cannon in tow. _What_,
 >if not for pure psychological effect, would be the reason or
 >justification for that? To shoot something down over the city?
 >If the airborne target of such a weapon had damage to the city
 >as its objective, wouldn't shooting it down _over_ the city
 >pretty much assist a wouldbe attacker in his/her goal? It would
 >rain fiery debris on the people and buildings below.

 >Just why the hell are they parading _cannons_ on the streets of
 >New York? It doesn't make me feel 'safe' at all, if _that_ is
 >the intention. In fact, it scares the hell out of me because it
 >makes me think, "Police State".

 >Now there is talk of "Carnivore" and a "National I.D. System".

 >We've all got be real careful here and keep our radar tuned.
 >Just to make sure that our personal freedoms don't _all_ get
 >sold down the river in the name of "increased "security".

 >There is a fine line here between Democracy and Totalitarian
 >State. Let's all walk it with our eyes wide open. No BS. Parts
 >of Downtown Brooklyn are a lot like 1930's Nazi Germany these
 >days. It's one thing to increase security so that people can
 >begin to feel 'safe'. (Which is just selling an illusion
 >anyway.) It is quite another to allow ourselves to be stopped
 >willy-nilly in the streets of our own cities by weapon carrying
 >soldiers and then having to produce our "papers" upon demand.
 >Sounds like an old war movie eh?

 >From New York. And more than just a bit concerned,


John,

Thanks for you candid, on the scene report. I think we can all
understand the need for more security, but what you've described
sounds a little over-the-top, especially if it doesn't make you
feel 'safe'.

Many people think the Anti-Terrorism Bill that passed yesterday
is pretty heavy handed. I have to wonder if the nation is too
shell-shocked to pay attention.

Anyway, I'm sincerely glad you, (& Jim) are OK.

-kj








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 13

                Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 13:48:54 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 15:01:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Mortellaro


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 09:37:49 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:40:19 -0500

<snip>

 >Hi Jerry, List, All -

 >I want to comment only on this one, small aspect of the debate,
 >which is that I don't believe that you must be a student of
 >Greek mythology or immersed in 30s pulp science fiction arcana
 >to be aware of some of those stories or images. I believe that
 >this is, for the lack of a better term, a collective
 >unconscious, in which this stuff floats... the idea of an urban
 >myth might be a good example of this. Stories that seem to
 >circulate with no home, no real written foundation but are out
 >there, spreading from person to person and community to
 >community. I remember, back in the early 70s people collecting
 >cigarette packages because there was an urban myth that the
 >cigarette companies would buy iron lungs as the packages were
 >redeemed.

 >Or, as an example from my own reason past... I don't watch South
 >Park, but when a question on Who Wants To Be A Millionaire was
 >asked about which character dies in almost every show, I knew
 >the answer was Kenny. I had seen something or heard something
 >that gave me that answer, proving, I suppose, that we do pick up
 >things without being aware of it.

 >All this means is that a person who didn't study Greek
 >mythology, or 30s science fiction, might (and I stress the
 >might) have picked up something or heard something that provided
 >a clue. This just shows that the information was "out there" to
 >coin a phrase, and because it was, there might have been some
 >contamination. Again, might have been.....

 >And this is not to say that everyone was contaminated, or that
 >the basis for the CEIIIs was science fiction or pop culture. At
 >the MUFON Symposium in 1996 I attempted to make this point,
 >which is, we can't just say that the connection doesn't exist
 >because there seems to be no precedent for it. To break the
 >connection, we must do a little better.


Interesting ...

Dear Kevin, List, Errol,

My Dad was born in Ybor City in Tampa Florida. It was then, the
Cigar Capital of the world. Indeed, most of my family worked in
that business, specifically for Arturo Fuente, whose Claro's I
smoke even as I write this.

Dad took with him (to NY) many urban myths, and among those
which I remember vividly, was the story of the "Goat Sucker."  I
have to spell it phonetically, "Choopa Waysa!"

Similar to Chupacabra. He never knew what a Choopa Waysa was,
but it was used as a derogative whenever the moment arose. As in
"You Stupid Maroon."

And etc.

Just my two centavos.

Jim

PS: Derogative is a word I made up. Similar to similacrum,
     Gesundt, Gripple and all the voices in my head.








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   Oct > Oct 13

                 Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 12:43:00 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 19:12:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Tonnies


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 13:48:54 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 09:37:49 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>I believe that this is, for the lack of a better
 >>term, a collective unconscious, in which this stuff
 >>floats... the idea of an urban myth might be a good
 >>example of this.

 >Dad took with him (to NY) many urban myths, and among those
 >which I remember vividly, was the story of the "Goat Sucker." I
 >have to spell it phonetically, "Choopa Waysa!"

 >Similar to Chupacabra. He never knew what a Choopa Waysa was,
 >but it was used as a derogative whenever the moment arose. As in
 >"You Stupid Maroon."

<snip>

I think it would be foolish to ignore the power of urban myth as
a mechanism for "meme dispersal," but I think alien abduction
accounts may have a deeper origin.

My own position on abductions is that a great deal of them are
"noise" produced by a variety of factors, but that there is a
core of truly anomalous events that deserve to be taken
extremely seriously. An alien intelligence of some sort
shouldn't be discounted.

If "aliens" (whatever that word ultimately means) want to
interact with us, they may choose to do so in an archetypal
language, showing us, in effect, what we _expect_ to see. The
"gray" physique may be partly, or even mostly, invented by the
media, but the fact remains that we equate big-headed, big-eyed
bald creatures with literal flesh-and-blood aliens.

Why shouldn't the alien intelligence exploit a pre-existing
image if it helps them interact with us?

I don't have any problems with the idea of alien visitors. But I
tend to doubt they are "nuts and bolts" in the conventional
sense. Already, humans are making remarkable progress with
nanotechnology and neurology. If we are being visited, the
aliens are likely thousands or millions of years ahead of us,
and will likely have advanced on these abilities, and others, to
a degree that would leave us floored...assuming we could
understand it at all.

Perhaps our "visitors," assuming they're out there observing us
for unknown reasons, choose to manifest on a level of
consciousness where, for whatever reason, they can work with
fewer distractions--both mundane, physical inconveniences like
dodging the cops as they yank somebody out of his/her bedroom at
3:00 AM as well as appealing to the abductee's particular sense
of reality. This would help account for minor "cosmetic"
differences of the aliens and their vehicles (assuming a
"vehicle" is present).

Summing up, the "gray" alien we all know and love may be a mask,
an illusion. But that doesn't make the person wearing it any
less real.

--Mac

Kevin Randle wrote:



Jim Mortellaro wrote:

 >Dad took with him (to NY) many urban myths, and
 >among those
 >which I remember vividly, was the story of the "Goat
 >Sucker." I
 >have to spell it phonetically, "Choopa Waysa!"

 >Similar to Chupacabra. He never knew what a Choopa
 >Waysa was,
 >but it was used as a derogative whenever the moment
 >arose. As in
 >"You Stupid Maroon."

<snip>

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 816-561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
http://mactonnies.com








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   Oct > Oct 14

                Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID

From: Nancy Karr <karr@home.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 18:35:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 11:30:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID



 >Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 12:02:30 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID System

 >>From: Kurt Jonach <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
 >>To: <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
 >>Subject: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID System
 >>Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 01:07:12 -0700

 >>------------------------------------------------------------

 >>The Electric Warrior : News October 13, 2001
 >>http://www.electricwarrior.com/news/ewNews0033.htm

 >>------------------------------------------------------------
 >>TECHNOLOGY LEADERS PONDER FINGERPRINT ID SYSTEM
 >>technology news
 >>by The Electric Warrior

<snip>

 >There is a fine line here between Democracy and Totalitarian
 >State. Let's all walk it with our eyes wide open. No BS. Parts
 >of Downtown Brooklyn are a lot like 1930's Nazi Germany these
 >days. It's one thing to increase security so that people can
 >begin to feel 'safe'. (Which is just selling an illusion
 >anyway.) It is quite another to allow ourselves to be stopped
 >willy-nilly in the streets of our own cities by weapon carrying
 >soldiers and then having to produce our "papers" upon demand.
 >Sounds like an old war movie eh?

 >From New York. And more than just a bit concerned,

John and all,

To quote Sue, "you may think I'm nuts" :) but all of my
experiences with aliens have developed certain skills that I
believe I have always had, but not to this extent. I get moving
pictures of events that happen in the future, usually about what
may happen to the people that I love in the form of warnings or
even if something really great is going to happen. You can ask
my family and they would verify it for me... sometimes dreams.
I understand that all of you think this kind of thing is hogwash
but I can't let that stop me from expressing myself. I feel that
I must have these things happen for a purpose and sometimes I
can help others with it and that makes me happy.

It's just going to get worse and there's is nothing anyone can
really do about it other than help family friends and self.

The governments are going to have no choice about bringing in
some sort of identificaiton system to all of the allied
countries. It's just a matter of time. Especially if there's
another bombing attack.

I've been having visions of a bomb that goes off in a dense city
population. The effect is circular, as I'm in it and I can see
it all around me. The city seems intact with the effects of the
bomb all around it. It melts the outer-ring of buildings up to
the sky where there's a large round hole that all of the muddy
energy is going into and then it impacts on itself on the ground and
everything disintegrates and goes wooshing up into the
atmosphere through this opening. All I can see after that is
people with their hands covering their faces in horrible
grief... and thinking to themselves, again, how could this
happe?


Take it as you will,

Nancy











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   Oct > Oct 14

                Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 19:28:06 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 11:35:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID



 >From: Kurt Jonach <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID System
 >Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 10:54:42 -0700


 >>Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 12:02:30 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID System

 >>Hi Kurt, hi All,

 >>"Carnivore"? "Soldiers, police, and armaments" being paraded on
 >>the streets of the one of the largest cities in the world?
 >>Welcome to the 'New World Order' kiddies.

 >>It's spooky here in New York now-a-days. I can understand the
 >>need for _some_ National Guard soldiers to be aiding police
 >>efforts in Manhattan near to the site of the tragedy, but what
 >>are _armed_ soldiers doing on the streets of Brooklyn?

<snip>

 >>From New York. And more than just a bit concerned,


 >John,

 >Thanks for you candid, on the scene report. I think we can all
 >understand the need for more security, but what you've described
 >sounds a little over-the-top, especially if it doesn't make you
 >feel 'safe'.

 >Many people think the Anti-Terrorism Bill that passed yesterday
 >is pretty heavy handed. I have to wonder if the nation is too
 >shell-shocked to pay attention.

 >Anyway, I'm sincerely glad you, (& Jim) are OK.

 >-kj

Kurt, List, Errol,

A few comments from the peanut gallery - mine.

Thanks for the concern, Kurt, however we now live well North of
what I would consider to be the "blast area" around the 30 to 40
mile radius of Nueva York. And we are on a mountain (near the
top but not quite) which face is away from NYC. So, unless it is
a huge, megaton job, much more powerful than Hiroshima, we
should be safe.

Except from fallout.

Hell of a thing to hear from someone in the US of A, eh? Reminds
me of the days when I was a kid, and yes, I was a kid once...
back in the early fifties, when we had a real Civil Defense
network and something called "Conalrad" worked with the AM
broadcast system to produce a nation-wide alert system in the
event one of the evil Russian ICBM's came at us. We were taught
to hide under our seats (desk seats in school) and when to get
up and when to go to the nearest Air Raid Shelter.

That was then. And this is now. Seems that as I grow old,
everything old is new again.

People in this nation are not used to being at war and are
certainly _not_ used to being in jeopardy for our lives. But we
are.

I was drving from Peekskill, a smallish town on the Hudson
River, toward our new home in the country, when I was seeing
what reminded me of German and other Continental airports.
Soldiers. With automatic weapons. Bayonettes. In battle gear and
make that full battle gear. Guarding the Hudson across from the
Indian Point Nuclear Generating plant. I could see tanks on the
other side with my binocs. And artillery which looked to me like
AA.

These turkeys are damned serious. When I stopped on the Bear
Mountain Highway to put the glasses on the parade, I was asked
to produce ID. I did. But the side arm was not something the
soldier expected. What happened next was no fun. But I produced
a shield and more ID and he was happy. Just a kid. A very
freightened kid. In his teens from his looks. And scared. You
cannot easily reason with that level of fear. There is a good
reason for his fear. It's the training he received. Musta scared
the wits out of him.

Not good.

Americans are a freedom loving people. This is a dangerous time
for us in more ways than terrorism. And our concern as citizens
is righteous. People should be worried over our freedoms. But
the only way to protect these are for all of US to voice those
concerns to our erected leader. Elected. Sorry. I was thinking
of Clinton.

On the one hand.

On the other hand, there is no way to guard ourselves without
the presence of the armed forces. No other way. And no other way
to ensure our saftey than (in my opinion) to have to put up with
the likes of "Show us your papers!"

Sad. But too true. It is however, up to us to make certain it
does not spread into a police state. And I think it will not. We
are too much used to being free.

The guns which are seen in Brooklyn and elsewhere are AA
weapons. In the event we have to shoot down a commercial jet or
some other intruder and there are no fighters around.


Never a fighter when you need one, eh?

Jim









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   Oct > Oct 14

               Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID -

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 17:48:36 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 11:40:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID -


My two cents.

Normally, I would be rabid with anger over such a proposal. I'm
a Democrat, but liberal on some things, moderate on others and
down-right conservative on other issues. But I am considering
exactly what is transpiring:

To take nothing from the horrendous loss of life at Pearl
Harbor, the casualty amount in New York City has exceeded the
Pearl Harbor disaster, almost three-fold. Japan's initial attack
was on our military forces. Terrorists initial attacks are aimed
most on American civilians.

For the first time our nation has been attacked and war declared
on the continental United States by a fanatical branch of a
relgion that is practiced by over a billion people. This nation
is at war and the battleground is the entire world, including
the cities of America. If you don't understand that, look at the
destruction in NYC and Washington, D.C. "This was no boating
accident," a U.S. Embassy or single American naval vessel
attacked. Only an absolute dolt would think otherwise. With this
particular act of terrorism, using commerical airliners filled
with innocent people, as massive bombs, the declaration of war
was made by fanatics who have garnered strength over decades to
hijack a peaceful and loving relgion and turned it into twisted,
perverted and evil political and ideological statement. It has
been made perfectly clear to anyone with the intelligence
quotient of a bacterium, that a large group of fanatics, with
money, resources and weapons, want to destroy the United States.

This isn't some insipid incident that can be ignored by any
American, or any person in any other country of the world, who
believes in peaceful solutions and civilized justice. No amount
of political correctness can justify the actions terrorists have
taken, nor should political correctness be even given review for
this nations defense.

This war was started by fanatics that don't wear uniforms, hide
behind a religion and uses it against the free world and for
their own nefarious and evil intent. The real Clerics and Holy
leaders of Islam knew of the cancer within its ranks, allowed it
to grow and fester while the leaders of the Islamic nations did
nothing to protect their national religion from fanatics when
their Holy leaders failed. Thus, the Kings, Shieks, Royal
families, Islamic clerics, etc., by their own inaction and
archaic tribal sytems, are impotent and unable to clean up the
mess they, themselves, have allowed to develop. Their own fears
have caused stagnation and failure to evolve as a people. If
that isn't a sin against Islam, what is? Tribal leaders, Royal
families, Holy clerics, all should be ashamed of themselves.
They have shown the other 5/6th of the world just how tarnished
their own dictation of Honor really is and allowed their people
to be tainted and abused. It is disgusting any way one wishes to
slice it.

So, our own military in the streets of our country? That makes
you fearful? How ridiculous. Our military personnel live here
and have always been among us. We the People govern this nation,
not our military. We the People keep and bear arms, just so the
military and our elected leaders are always reminded whom this
nations real leaders are and to whom they answer to.

A national I.D. system? A good idea. A sane method of
controlling crime, terrorism and other nefarious nasties against
the people of our country. Can it be abused? No, because We the
People, really do keep close watch. Whenever abuse happens, we
address it and stop it. We do this by election, impeachment or
taking up arms, depending on the factualities of the abuse. How
do I know this to be true? Our Constitution and Bill of Rights
is only written on paper, but was done so with the blood of the
people. We don't let a relgion rule us, We the People, rule and
use our religions for personal spiritual enlightnment, not as
the owners of our souls, lives, liberties or pursuits of
happiness.

Here, being an American is an honor and a priviledge you breath,
live and fight for to maintain. Your heritage is a personal
thing, as is your religion. Here, you are not an
Hispanic-American, Native American, Arab-American or any of that
political correctness crap that flows from educational
institutional drivel. If you are a citizen, you are an American
in total. We Americans celebrate our own culteral heritages and
traditions, but don't force those heritages or cultural
traditions down another American's throat or use religion to
control others or our nation. That's _Liberty_!

Fear of a national I.D. card? Absolute rubbish. Today I produce
photo I.D. to cash a check, apply for loans, federal/state/local
assistance, etc., etc., etc. Why, we all have a number assigned
to us already. The only trouble is, identity cards in the
present form are easy to fake. A national I.D. card only offers
protection because it proves your identity and rights of
citizenship. As long as the law for it doesn't go beyond that,
then I say, fine. I can think of many more positive reasons than
negative ones for such a card. People pass across the borders of
our nation undetected now, in the thousands. Most because they
want a better life. That's fine, but we are civilized and
welcome new citizens, but expect those who desire citizenship to
follow proceedures for doing so. Involving oneself in criminal
or terrorist activities would be inherently more difficult with
a national I.D. card system in place. Less resources would be
wasted when a person has a legal warrant out on them. With
vigilance against abuse, a national I. D. card can protect us
better and allow us even more freedom, if we institute it to do
that.

The national I. D. card is an idea whose time has come. However,
before being instituted, it must be debated and safeguards put
into place. Our nation is built upon the principles of
compromise. That's what makes us so damnably _free_. Believe me,
the majority rules here, via the ballot box, but the minority
keeps the majority honest. <G>


Wendy Connors









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   Oct > Oct 14

                        Probing Abduction 'Classics'

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:11:23 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 11:45:39 -0400
Subject: Probing Abduction 'Classics'


Besides discussing theoretical points about abductions in
another thread, I would like to begin one addressing some
abduction cases. It can serve to illustrate some of the
theoretical points discussed.

After my comments on Linda Cortile's and Vilas Boas' abductions,
let me tackle another 'classic': the Allagash Four.

After a detailed analysis of Fowler's book, my conclusions were:

According to Fowler, they were "evidence that would demonstrate,
beyond a reasonable shadow of doubt, that worldwide reports of
humans being abducted by alien entities were really happening".

I do not know if alien abductions are real (although I suspect
otherwise). But what I am really sure is that the Allagash
abductions are _not_ evidence of their reality. Yes, it is true
that after several regressions the witnesses, more or less
reluctantly, offered similar accounts, but even a perfunctory
analysis reveal much more differences. I have prepared a table
showing all the key elements of the multiple abduction as seem
by each abductee. The differences are deeply damning. A few
examples will be enough.

It is logical for the memories of the four witnesses to differ,
if only because hypnosis is not a trustworthy procedure. But
there should be some constants where all they should agree:

+ UFO arrival order: Jim said Charlie was the first and Chuck
the second. But Jack said Chuck was the first. Charlie did not
know but he saw the empty canoe under him (last one?).

+ Exam order: Jack and Jim agreed that they were the first and
second respectively to be examined. But Chuck said he was the
first. And Charlie said he was after Chuck but before Jim and
Jack (in this order).

+ Medical examination:

Charlie.- He described a panel above his chest. Jim and Jack did
not see anything but saw him completely naked afterwards. But
Chuck did not see any panel, instead he described how the aliens
pulled Charlie's ribs outside (!!) and afterwards put a sling
around his chest.

Jim.- The aliens took samples while he was standing and
undressing himself; then he went to another room where he laid
on the table and masturbate. Charlie maintains that  he could see
him naked with a panel above his chest, and only afterwards the
aliens took samples.

Jack.- He awoke naked. The aliens probe his body with a stick.
Then he went to another room where he laid on a table with
something on his chest and the aliens put something against his
penis.

Charlie describes that everybody underwent the same procedure
(no semen extraction). Jack describes only the first part. Chuck
saw Jack with a sling.

Chuck.- He remembers three aliens who took away his trousers and
took a semen sample. Charlie and Jim do not remember anything,
but Jack saw Chuck completely naked before the aliens arrived to
take him away.


+ UFO interior:

Charlie described only two rooms (one with a bank and a window,
and another after climbing down several steps).

Jim described a room with a bank, a dark corridor and the exam
room.

Jack mentioned several rooms.

Chuck described only one room where everything (the exam table,
the tubes, etc) was.

How can anybody consider all this the best evidence, when they
hardly agree on anything (even the aliens' descriptions do not
match exactly -Jim and Chuck mentioned 3 digits, Jack said four
opposable fingers)? I would expect some differences but how can
they do not even agree in the order they were examined!


Any comments?

Luis R. Gonzlez Manso









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   Oct > Oct 15

                 Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:14:55 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 05:53:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzalez


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:40:19 -0500

 >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:01:11 +0200

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:13:34 -0500

 >Hi, Luis,

 >>>An admittedly every specialized fantasy, involving among - other
 >>>erotic elements - vomiting. I think the rest of us will count
 >>>that among the less probable explanations for Villas-Boas's
 >>>story.

 >>Of course, you are entitled to think so. My bet would be a tall
 >>tale on the chemist which backfired.

 >Based, exactly, on what evidence?

None, just suspicions... Exactly the same that in favour of a
very peculiar alien abduction (not to say very peculiar way to
obtain hybrids) that really was "one of a kind". Never again did
we met the same UFO, the same alien garments or the same alien
women. As Patrick Huyghe wrote once, regarding UFOs, if we were
talking about thousands of identical incidents, nobody will
negate them. The problem is that there are no two cases alike.
So, undoubtedly, the human psychology plays a role. Our
discussion really is about the importance of such a role. The
most serious UFO researchers admit that but insist in a "core
experience". The skeptics do not find enough justification for
that.

 >In any event, unless you're claiming that all CE3 claimants who
 >reported what we might now interpret as hybrid beings were
 >lying, the theory you seem to be proposing makes no sense. We're
 >talking about experiences, sometimes multiply or independently
 >witnessed.

No, my claim is that some CE3 claimants _did_ lie, and all the
rest were mistaken or believe in their unconscious
confabulations or fantasies they recalled under hypnosis.

 >In fact, most folklorists believe that even the most outlandish
 >folklore (e.g., that concerning fantastic creatures such as
 >merbeings and fairies) may grow out of experiences, or perceived
 >experiences, and not the other way around

Yes, we are talking about experiences, but are they objective or
subjective? Was patrolman Schirmer really abducted by beings from
"Mars Needs Women"? Was really a cow abducted at Leroy, Kansas,
in 1897? Did really Adamski (or Katharina Wilson) travel to the dark
side of the Moon?

It is normal that no small number of folklorists express
puzzlement at memorates. They are used to deal with dead letters
from the past, not with living persons talking about personal
experiences. But, does it mean that Herakles or the sirens
really existed? I suppose at the time, there were some people
who were sure to have seen them.


Yours,

LuisR








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                 Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:17:23 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 05:55:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzalez


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 04:04:36 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:35:40 +0200

Dear John,

If you and the List indulge me, we can discuss your case at
lengtht.....

Of course, you have been over the details of that night at least
100,000 times. I cannot even imagine your emotional turnmoil.
But even if I cannot accept that your abduction was a physical
incident, I really respect you and your fellows abductees.

Let's follow an order:

1. You saw a UFO, "A light shaped like a football, the size of a
smal van floating about 10-12 m above the roofs, at about 18 m
from you". Did it appeared suddenly?

On principle, I do not accept at face value any UFO description,
even if the witness knocked in its hull! We have been scalded so
many times! But nevertheless, your sighting could have been just
one more in a long statistic.

2. You got scared. Why? Did it come towards you? Did you have to
go near in order to reach your home? Of course, human reactions
vary but you must recognize that so a sudden panic is unusual.
Awe, surprise, even curiosity, but panic without motive?.

But, of course, if you already know _subconsciously_ that you
were going to be abducted again, your panic was totally
justified.

3. One split-second later you awoke in your bed, unaccounted
hours had passed, your nose bleeding and your eye swollen.

Another question: Was it still bleeding or had the blood already
coagulated? Were your bed dressings or pillow stained?.

If we accept your hipnosis recall, you were undressed (totally?)
when the mantis alien probed your nose, but no bleeding is
described then.

Did you recall under hipnosis how and where did they returned
you? Did they drop you in the bed and your garments on the floor
nearby?

It is my experience that even with a helping subject, it is
quite difficult to totally undress a person (buttons, zippers,
bra fasteners -not your case, of course-) in a short time and
without tearing. But still worse is to dress him/her again.

We have a fact. Your nose-bleeding. But when did it happen? Each
possibility has its problems, the data provided in the book is
not enough to dilucidate.

This is going longer than I think, and I do not want to bore the
people. Just one more question:

What was your "Realization Event", when all the pieces on your
life dropeed in place forming an alien abduction scenario?
According to Brookesmith it was in 1993 after reading Missing
Time.

14 years after the main event. Is it really there no possibility
of some _unconscious_ "embellishement"?

Next: the medical diagnostic.

Yours,

Luis R. Gonzlez









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                       The Abduction Of Ann Jefferies

From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@email.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 00:19:07 +0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 05:59:01 -0400
Subject: The Abduction Of Ann Jefferies


Dear List members,

As I have been preparing an article about early claims of
abduction for a popular magazine over here, I thought I'd share
my summary of the Ann Jefferies 'case' with other List members,
before I translate it into Spanish.

The story itself is open to all kinds of interpretation, but I
am concerned that its real contents continue to be ignored and
their true value therefore lost. It is not exactly a typical
"modern-style" account of abduction, despite Jenny Randles'
incorrect statement that it concerns "several human-sized
creatures who seemed fascinated by reproduction" that Jefferies
"believed she�had a sexual rapport with" ("The Complete Book of
Aliens & Abductions," Piatkus, London 1999 p.13). As we will
see, the fairies certainly kissed her but I would hesitate
before equating this with sexual intercourse, at least without
reproducing the relevant quote in full for readers to draw their
own conclusions.

Nevertheless, it does contain enough familiar-sounding features
to regard it as a forerunner of modern reports. It is
unfortunate that it is so often referred to without quoting from
the original text.

*****************************************************

Ann Jefferies: Taken by the Fairies

One of the most celebrated encounters between a human being and
the fairies took place in Cornwall in 1645. Anne Jefferies, the
daughter of a poor labourer, was born in the parish of St. Teath
in December 1626. At the age of nineteen she went to live in a
wealthy family, that of the Pitts, as a servant. It is, in fact,
a letter from Moses Pitt to the Right Reverend Dr. Edward
Fowler, the Bishop of Gloucester, that contains the most
detailed account about Jefferies' experiences.

In the letter, dated May 1st 1696, he explains how one day
Jefferies had been knitting in an arbour in the garden when
something so shocking happened to her "that she fell into a kind
of Convulsion-fit." Soon afterwards members of the family found
her writhing on the ground and carried her indoors, where she
was taken to her bedroom and allowed to rest. When she regained
consciousness she startled everyone gathered at her bedside by
crying out, "They are all just gone out of the Window; do you
not see them?" This and similar outbursts were immediately
"attributed to her Distemper," her employers supposing she was
suffering a bout of feverish 'light-headedness.'

Anne Jefferies remained in an unstable condition for some time,
unable even to "so much as stand on her Feet." Gradually,
however, she managed to recover from her "sickness" and by the
following year was able to reassume her duties as a maid. Not
long after this she began to reveal that, although she had
recovered from her seizures, she had not exactly become her 'old
self' again.

Pitt writes that the first indication that Jefferies had
acquired new skills came "one Afternoon, in the Harvest-time,"
when his mother slipped and broke her leg on the way back from
the mill, which was a quarter of a mile from the house. She "lay
[there] a considerable time in great Pain," he wrote, "till a
Neighbour coming by on Horseback, seeing my Mother in this
condition, lifted her up on his Horse, and carried her home." A
servant was told to saddle a horse and fetch Mr. Hob, the
surgeon, from a nearby town. While the servant was getting the
horse ready, Anne Jefferies came into the room and saw Mrs. Pitt
with her leg outstretched. She asked her to show her the wound,
which the woman did after some persuasion, and to rest the leg
on her lap. Stroking it with her hand, Anne asked whether the
woman was feeling any better.

"My Mother confess'd to her she did. Upon this she desired my
Mother to forbear sending for the Chyrurgeon, for she would, by
the Blessing of God, cure her Leg: and to satisfy my Mother of
the Truth of it, she again appeal'd to my Mother, whether she
did not find farther Ease upon her�which my Mother again
acknowledged she did. Upon this my Mother countermanded the
Messenger for the Chyrurgeon."

What surprised Mrs. Pitt the most was not the maid's newfound
healing powers but the fact that she seemed to know exactly when
and where her fall had happened. Yet how could she? Anne had
been sent to the orchards (for her own well-being, in case she
were to have another fit) while Mrs. Pitt was not at home to
keep an eye on her and nobody had had known anything until the
neighbour arrived on his horse. Moses writes that his mother
demanded an explanation.

"[Ann Jefferies] made answer, that half a dozen Persons told her
of it. That, reply'd my Mother, could not be, for there was none
came by at that time, but my Neighbour�that brought me home. Ann
answers again, that that was the Truth, and it was also true,
that half a dozen Persons told her so; for said she, you ! know
I went out of the House into the Gardens and Orchards very
unwillingly. And now I tell you the Truth of all Matters and
Things that have befallen me.

"You know that this my Sickness and Fits came very suddenly upon
me, which brought me very low and weak, and have made me very
simple. Now the Cause of my Sickness was this.

"I was one day knitting of Stockings in the Arbour in the
Gardens, and there came over the Garden-hedge of a sudden six
small People, all in green Clothes, which put me into such a
Fright and Consternation that was the Cause of this my great
Sickness; and they continue their Appearance to me, never less
that 2 at a time, nor never more than 8: they always appear in
even Numbers, 2, 4, 6, 8. when I said often in my Sickness, They
were just gone out of the Window, it was really so; altho you
thought me light-headed. At this time when I came into the
Garden, they came to me, and ask'd me, if you had put me out of
the House against my Will: I told them I was unwilling to come
out of the house: Upon this they said, you should not fare the
better for it; and thereupon in that Place, and at that time, in
a fair Path you fell, and hurt your Leg. I would not have you
send for a Chyrurgeon, nor trouble your self, for I will cure
your Leg: The which she did in a little time."

A longer account of Jefferies' encounter in the garden can be
found in Robert Hunt's 1871 book, Popular Romances of the West
of England. This literary version contains details that had
probably circulated as rumours for two centuries and which were
not included in Pitt's letter. Whether these rumours originated
in Anne Jefferies' own confessions is difficult to say but the
result is a much stranger rendition of the same story, with
features that are atypical even of the most surreal fairy tales.
Atypical to all but tales of abduction, that is.

Hunt writes that on meeting her in the arbour, one of the little
men "clambered upon her bosom and neck, and began kissing her."
Before long, all of the beings were kissing "her neck, her lips,
and her eyes." When one of the beings "ran his fingers over her
eyes�she felt as if they had been pricked with a pin." All of a
sudden, "Anne became blind, and she felt herself whirled through
the air at a great rate." When she could see again she found
herself in a different world. She found herself in a beautiful
forest, surrounded by temples and palaces of precious metals and
"hundreds" of people "walking about," "idling," dancing and
playing sport. She then realised that the fairies now seemed to
be about the same height as herself, and that she was wearing
"the most highly-decorated clothes." Anne found a handsome mate,
with whom she made love until for some reason the other
inhabitants of the realm started getting angry and they had to
part. At last "the fairy who had blinded her again placed his
hands upon her eyes, and all was dark. She heard strange noises,
and felt herself whirled about and about, and as if a thousand
flies were buzzing around her." In a short while she was found
by the Pitt family, who all mistakenly conceived that "she was
recovering from a convulsion fit."

Such is the literary version of Jefferies' abduction.

 From that time on, Anne Jefferies became famous throughout
England as a faith-healer and fairy contactee. Moses Pitt writes
that "People of all Distempers, Sicknesses, Sores, and Ages"
travelled from far and wide to Cornwall to see the girl and
receive her magical treatment. She charged no fee for her work
and even stopped eating lunch and dinner with the family,
claiming that the fairies were feeding her. On one occasion,
writes Pitt in his letter, a neighbour called Francis Heathman
dropped by to visit Anne. He was told she was in her room, so
"he goes into her Chamber to see for her; and not seeing her, he
calls for her: She not answering, he feels up and down in the
Chamber for her; but not finding her, comes and tells us she was
not in her Chamber. As soon as he had said this, she comes out
of her Chamber to us, as we were sitting at Table, and tells
him, she was in her Chamber, and saw him, and heard him call
her, and see him feel up and down the Chamber for her, but he
could not see her although she saw him, notwithstanding she was
at the same time at the Table in her Chamber eating her dinner."

Unfortunately, so many strange goings on and her growing
reputation as a seer worried the local authorities. They sent
"both the Neighboro-Magistrates and Ministers" to the house to
question the maid on the nature of her supernatural contacts.
Despite hearing Anne Jefferies' "very rational Answers to all
the Questions they then ask'd her," her interrogators concluded
that the spirits she spoke to were "the Delusion of the Devil,"
and they "advised her not to go to them when they call'd her."
Not long after this, the Justice of the Peace in Cornwall, John
Tregagle Esq., issued a warrant for her arrest. Jefferies spent
three months in Bodmin Gaol, where she was not allowed food or
drink. "And yet," to everyone's amazement, "she liv'd, and
without complaining." The fairies were feeding her! When she was
finally freed it was decided that she could not return to the
house of the Pitts, so! she went to stay with Moses Pitt's aunt,
Mrs. Francis Tom, near Padstow. There "she liv'd a considerable
time, and did many great Cures," but later moved into her own
brother's house and eventually married.

In his letter Moses Pitt makes it clear that he had made an
effort to gather as many details as he could about the case and
to find witnesses. He mentions Mr. William Tom, "some time since
Mayor of Plimouth�who did aver the Truth of Many, if not all the
Passages I here relate," and declares that he "could bring
several other Persons now living to justify the Truth of what I
write." Unfortunately, Anne Jefferies herself would not make any
more statements about what she had experienced, "fancying that
if she should do it, she might again fall into Trouble about
it." In 1691 Pitt wrote to his nephew, an attorney living in
Cornwall, asking him to visit the woman � then in her
mid-sixties � and interview her, but she refused to speak about
it with anybody. In January 1693 Pitt asked his brother-in-law,
Mr. Humphrey Martyn, to try to approach her with the same
request. This time Anne Jefferies replied that she did not want
her life made into "Books or Ballads" nor her name "spread about
the country" in this way. She added that she wouldn't even do it
for "five hundred pounds"!

"�for she said, she had been questioned before Justices, and at
the Sessions, and in Prison, and also before the Judges at the
Assizes; and she doth believe, that if she should discover
[reveal] such things now, she should be questioned again for
it."

Anne Jefferies died in 1698.


Chris Aubeck









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                      New Email Address For Larry Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:22:22 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 06:00:10 -0400
Subject: New Email Address For Larry Hatch


Hello All:


A few of you might have my old email address <larryhat@jps.net>
in your address books.

The jps.net address may die at any time due to an ISP buyout,
resulting in bounced emails.

Please check your address book and change my personal email
address to:

   larry@larryhatch.net  (which sounds redundant.)

Note the ".net", dot-com goes to somebody else.

Emails will then be redirected to me regardless of which ISP I
finally do wind up with.


Best!

- Larry









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                      Rajesh Kumar - www.etcontact/net?

From: Larry Hatch <larry@LARRYHATCH.NET>
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:21:38 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 06:04:13 -0400
Subject: Rajesh Kumar - www.etcontact/net?


Dear Listerines:

While searching for dead links to my old *U* Database website, I
chanced upon this one:

http://www.etcontact.net/GeneralSightings.htm

You may recognize the UFO maps, they are mine.

Toward the bottom of the page, there are two DEAD LINKS back to
my old pages.

I emailed webmaster@etcontact.net to point out the new URL:

http://www.larryhatch.net

but that email bounced.

Actually, www.etcontact.net went dead itself for days or weeks.
I thought that ended the matter, but the pages mysteriously
reappeared 2-3 days ago.

I checked the domain registry for etcontact.net and learned the
following: (Loy found this also)

  Rajesh Kumar (ETCONTACT2-DOM)
  4505 University Ave NE #537
  Seattle, WA 98105 US

  Domain Name: ETCONTACT.NET

  Administrative Contact, Technical Contact..
  Kumar, Rajesh  (RK5198)  xkumar1@HOTMAIL.COM
  Kumar, Rajesh
  4505 University Ave NE #537
  Seattle, WA 98105   206-729-6190

  Record last updated on 05-Aug-2001.
  Record expires on 05-Jul-2002.
  Record created on 05-Jul-2000.
  Database last updated on 12-Oct-2001 ...
- - - -

Naturally, I emailed xkumar1@hotmail.com,
and _that_ email bounced.

Somewhere I found <rajesh@etcontact.net> and maybe yet another
address.  All of my emails bounced.

Can _anybody_ tell me how to email this rather slippery fellow?

He put up my maps on his website, without asking permission at
all, and only refers visitors back to dead jps.net links.

Very frustrating, any help kindly appreciated. I may try the
phone number given, but have understandable doubts about that as
well.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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               Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 14:24:41 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 06:06:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID -


 >From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID
 >Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 17:48:36 -0600


 >My two cents.

 >Normally, I would be rabid with anger over such a proposal. I'm
 >a Democrat, but liberal on some things, moderate on others and
 >down-right conservative on other issues. But I am considering
 >exactly what is transpiring:

 >Snip (but reluctantly)

 >Fear of a national I.D. card? Absolute rubbish. Today I produce
 >photo I.D. to cash a check, apply for loans, federal/state/local
 >assistance, etc., etc., etc. Why, we all have a number assigned
 >to us already. The only trouble is, identity cards in the
 >present form are easy to fake. A national I.D. card only offers
 >protection because it proves your identity and rights of
 >citizenship. As long as the law for it doesn't go beyond that,
 >then I say, fine. I can think of many more positive reasons than
 >negative ones for such a card. People pass across the borders of
 >our nation undetected now, in the thousands. Most because they
 >want a better life. That's fine, but we are civilized and
 >welcome new citizens, but expect those who desire citizenship to
 >follow proceedures for doing so. Involving oneself in criminal
 >or terrorist activities would be inherently more difficult with
 >a national I.D. card system in place. Less resources would be
 >wasted when a person has a legal warrant out on them. With
 >vigilance against abuse, a national I. D. card can protect us
 >better and allow us even more freedom, if we institute it to do
 >that.

 >The national I. D. card is an idea whose time has come. However,
 >before being instituted, it must be debated and safeguards put
 >into place. Our nation is built upon the principles of
 >compromise. That's what makes us so damnably _free_. Believe me,
 >the majority rules here, via the ballot box, but the minority
 >keeps the majority honest.

Dear Wendy, List, Errol,

Very well said, Girl. Very well said. As I would have said it a
few years back. And every word is truth - in theory. There are
dangers to our freedoms however. Serious ones. And what is most
perplexing about the issue of our freedoms is the Lemminglike
nature of our citizens. Too busy with life to become involved.
Too trusting of their elected leaders for their (our) own good.
Deeper involvement in government is needed by ALL people of ALL
nations. People need to serve themselves with a full plate of
self determination.

The proof of our ill-representation exists in our faces. The UFO
and abduction phenomena is a prime proof. The argument which
should be used in any apologetic narative over the rights of
humankind. Of US citizens. And in Canada (sorry guys) and
England and Australia, there are even fewer rights granted to
their citizens.

But then I guess our neighbors have fewer problems than we with
the use of the evil nug. Eh? And the evil weed. And the evil
needle with all the damage done. Eh?

I digress with apologeeees.


Jim
a man afraid and not in his cups.....









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               Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID -

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 21:55:47 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 06:09:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID -


 >From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID
 >Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 17:48:36 -0600

 >My two cents.

 >Normally, I would be rabid with anger over such a proposal. I'm
 >a Democrat, but liberal on some things, moderate on others and
 >down-right conservative on other issues. But I am considering
 >exactly what is transpiring:

 ><snip>

 >So, our own military in the streets of our country? That makes
 >you fearful? How ridiculous. Our military personnel live here
 >and have always been among us. We the People govern this nation,
 >not our military. We the People keep and bear arms, just so the
 >military and our elected leaders are always reminded whom this
 >nations real leaders are and to whom they answer to.

 ><snip>

 >The national I. D. card is an idea whose time has come. However,
 >before being instituted, it must be debated and safeguards put
 >into place. Our nation is built upon the principles of
 >compromise. That's what makes us so damnably _free_. Believe me,
 >the majority rules here, via the ballot box, but the minority
 >keeps the majority honest. <G>


Hi Wendy and everyone else,

I would like to say that I am glad Wendy has decided to become
more active on this List. I pretty much agree wih what she has
posted in the last few weeks. Whether I agree or not, I am
thankful for such perceptive and well developed views from
another person who I think represents what Ufology means to me.
In my view, one voice with rational depth is more than
equivalent to 100 people who are psychosocial failures and
litter the field of popular UFO pronouncements with their narrow
minded agendas.

I don't have a fixed opinion on a National ID card. I trust that
will be worked out in Congress. I can say that when I moved
here to Germany I was surprised that I had to register with the
police. Even if I move within Berlin I must register again. One
would think that with a history of a police state Germans would
fight it with all they could. But here there is also a good
democracy to prevent abuses and people accept it as just part of
life.


Josh Goldstein










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                        Alien Technology Documentary?

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:55:02 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 06:12:09 -0400
Subject: Alien Technology Documentary?


I was sent this a few days ago. Does anyone know anything about
(see below)? Sorry if I may have missed anything on the List.
Thanks!

Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM

-----

A very small advertisement in The Living Arts section of the
'The New York Times', for Monday, September 10, 2001 titled
'Item" had this to say:


  Despite Federal Government attemptes via the Nat-
  ional Security Act to prevent its first public screen-
  ing, "Alien Technology" 48 minute Documentary
  hosted by Stacy Keach will commence as sched-
  uled on: Wednesday, September 12th, 7:00 PM at:
  Clearview Theater 239 E. 59th St. (between 2nd
  and 3rd Ave.) Admission $10 Nyfilmvideo.com
  Ticketweb.com 1(866) 468-7619










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                       Declassify This (UFO?) Document

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 07:06:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 07:06:20 -0400
Subject: Declassify This (UFO?) Document


Source: PetitionPetition.com

http://www.petitionpetition.com/cgi/petition.cgi?id=2635

Body of Petition:

BACKGROUND: Recently accessed by researchers in charge of the
website of http://www.majesticdocuments.com, a one-page
meeting-agenda memorandum now housed at the U. S. National
Archives and Records Administration constitutes a smoking-gun
milestone in various private research efforts to determine how
much certain current agency officials know (and when they knew
it) about the formation, operation, and findings of a
supersecret, presidentially chartered UFO-E.T. study group --
"Majestic-Twelve" -- created during the aftermath of the
so-called Roswell Incident in early July 1947.

Here's the researchers' summary of the subject memo's
authentication:

"FROM NATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS ADMINISTRATION
(NARA) &#-106; COLLEGE PARK, MARYLAND

"Intelligence Advisory Board, 14th Meeting, 17 July 1947 (20k)

http://www.majesticdocuments.com/documents/archives/pdfiab14meeting_17july47


"From Record Group 353, Entry 411-413, Box 96, Interdepartmental
committees, comes a revealing memo concerning the Intelligence
Advisory Board. The Central Intelligence Group (CIG) had an
Intelligence Advisory Board, which held its 14th meeting on
Thursday, July 17, 1947 [in Washington, D.C.]. The agenda memo
shows one blacked-out agenda item, number three, and none of the
associated tabs are yet declassified. This would have been the
first official meeting of the IAB after the reported July 1947
crashes of UFOs in New Mexico, and logically the event(s) would
likely have been discussed. This document does not preclude that
conclusion, and the question remains open: Why is this material
classified to this day -- more than half a century later?"

Unfortunately, we may have to wait another 50 years or so to
learn the still-classified contents of the memo's agenda item
No. 3 and its various tabbed enclosures -- unless its current
custodians decide to declassify its contents fully and promptly.

PETITION TEXT:

-- Whereas it behooves the public's right-to-know to have the
IAB memo's current custodians (including all pertinent NARA,
DOD, USAF, Navy, and CIA officials) proceed with immediate
"mandatory declassification review/release" of the memo in
accordance with Executive Order No. 12958; and

-- Whereas their taking this action will help strengthen
congressional and body-politic inquiry into, and oversight of,
what went wrong (and why) with the Executive Branch's UFO-E.T.
policy and practices from their inception more than 50 years ago
--

We, the undersigned citizens, do hereby petition the above-cited
agencies to declassify the subject memo immediately -- and
thereby heed our plea for greater UFO-E.T. freedom of
information and accountability.

Recipients:

U. S. Secretary of Defense; secretary of the Air Force; director
of Central Intelligence Agency; chairman of U.S. National
Security Council

Sponsor of Petition:
http://www.ufocity.com

Geographic Scope of Petition:
World

Launch Date:
10/15/2001

Ending Date:
02/15/2002


Sign Petition here:

http://www.petitionpetition.com/cgi/petition.cgi?id=2635&action=signForm


_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/


Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 02:06:05 -0400
From: wordofmouth@petitionpetition.com
To: ufoupdates@home.com
Reply-to: overtci@bellatlantic.net
Subject: Declassify This (UFO?) Document!

Greetings! A message about a petition from Larry W. Bryant:

Please click on the site's subsection called "View or Post
Messages" -- to view a message from me (and to add one of your
own, if you wish!). -- OO

TITLE: Declassify this (UFO?) Document!

SUMMARY: A censored "smoking gun" agenda sheet for a July 1947
meeting of the Intelligence Advisory Board has been acquired
from the National Archives. How much of it pertains to Roswell?

Click here to sign the petition:

http://www.petitionpetition.com/cgi/petition.cgi?id=2635









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                      The Gundiah, OZ, Mackay Abduction

From: Leigh Blackmore <troswell51@optusnet.com.au>
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:39:29 +1000
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 07:21:08 -0400
Subject: The Gundiah, OZ, Mackay Abduction



Hello Errol and List members,

Here is an update on the Queensland abduction case as reported
by Diane Harrison and Bill Chalker (AUFORN)

---

Subject: The Gundiah Mackay abduction milieu

A preliminary report by Bill Chalker and Diane Harrison AUFORN

An extraordinary and controversial milieu has developed around
events that reportedly began late on the evening of Thursday,
October 4th, 2001, at a Gundiah property near Tiaro, culminating
in the early hours of Friday, October 5th, 2001, and then played
out in the glare of rapidly escalating media coverage.

Three people were directly involved in these alleged events.
Keith Rylance (40), his wife Amy (22), and their business
partner, Petra Heller (39) were on their property, which was
being developed as "Whispering Winds" winery. Other potential
activities were also being developed at the location. The
following account comes from interviews conducted by us with
them, along with primary source material such as TV interviews.

Keith Rylance told us that he had gone to sleep in the caravan
bedroom at about 9.30 pm. Petra retired to her bedroom in the
caravan annex. Amy stayed on a couch watching TV in the caravan
annex "lounge room". Each of these locations were in close
proximity, separated by a window and wall respectively from the
lounge room. Petra's room had a door leading to the lounge room,
which was left ajar. The door to the bedroom, where Keith was,
apparently was open to the lounge room. Amy apparently fell
asleep on the couch. A storm was in the area.

Around 11.15 pm, Petra was reportedly woken up and when she
entered the adjacent lounge was confronted by an extraordinary
sight, that allegedly quickly overwhelmed her. A rectangular
beam of light was being projected through the open window of the
caravan lounge room. This light beam appeared to be truncated
at the end. Inside the beam Petra claims to have seen Amy in a
sleep prone position, being carried out head first through the
window. Underneath her, also within the beam were the items that
had been on the coffee table adjacent to the couch Amy had been
on. Before apparently fainting in shock Petra saw that the beam
was coming from a disc shaped UFO hovering just above the ground
a short distance away, near a tree at the rear of the clear
section, immediately behind the annex caravan house.

Petra reports she believes she was only in a faint for a very
short period of time. Regaining consciousness, she began
screaming. Keith reports that he was awakened by the commotion
coming from Petra. As he came from the caravan bedroom and
stepped down into the lounge room annex Keith claims he was
confronted by the sight of a highly agitated Petra and the
contents of the coffee table on the floor in front of the
window. He told us that he soon realised that the window screen
was torn in both a vertical fashion and along the bottom of the
window frame. Keith indicated that initially he couldn't get
any sense out of Petra who was crying and very agitated, so he
rushed outside trying to locate Amy. She was reportedly nowhere
to be found. Keith states when he started to be less agitated
himself he was eventually able to get from Petra an idea of what
happened. Keith claims he initially refused to believe what
Petra was telling him. He said he rushed outside again trying
to find his wife. Eventually as the situation became clearer,
Keith indicates he decided to call the police. Keith call the
Tiaro police around 11.40 pm reporting that his wife had been
abducted and imploring that the police should come out. The
manning status at that time meant there were some delays in the
police coming out, but about hour and a half after the initial
call Senior Constable Robert Maragna from Tiaro and an officer
from Maryborough arrived at the site. Initially police thought
they might have been walking into a situation involving foul
play, even perhaps a murder scene, but then the bizarre
circumstances of the alleged events came into focus. The two
people, Keith and Petra, at the Gundiah property were claiming
that Amy Rylance had been abducted by a "spaceship"! The
officers were struggling to keep an open mind. They were joined
later by Sgt. John Bosnjak, the officer in charge of the Tiaro
police. He had been asleep when the police called him to assist
in the investigation.

The three officers continued their investigations at the site.
They confirmed that Keith Rylance and Petra Heller appeared to
be in an agitated state and that there was no sign of Amy
Rylance. The torn screen was examined. A flowering bush,
commonly known as "yesterday, today, tomorrow" was located
immediately outside the left side of window, had indications of
possibly being affected by heat or another mechanism along its
right side. Oddly another flowering bush, a hibiscus, located
immediately on the right hand side of the window area was not
affected in the same way. The police took samples for possible
later testing.

While the police were at the property, a phone call came
through, which was taken by Keith Rylance. A woman was calling
from Mackay indicating that she had taken a somewhat distressed
and apparently dehydrated young woman from a BP petrol service
station on the northern outskirts of central Queensland city of
Mackay, some 790 kilometres to the north of the Gundiah � Tiaro
area. The young woman turned out to be Amy Rylance, and the
female caller was ringing to advise that Amy was apparently all
right and was at the Mackay hospital, where she had been
examined by a doctor. Keith handed the phone to Snr. Constable
Marangna.

Given these extraordinary circumstances Mackay police were
called in, making a total of three police stations involved in
the investigation � Tiaro, on outskirts of central Queensland,
Maryborough on the coast and Mackay, some 790 kilometres to the
north of the Gundiah � Tiaro area.

A statement was notarised by the Mackay police with a Justice
Act acknowledgement, that required Amy to acknowledge that she
had stated was true to the best of her knowledge and belief, and
that if it is admitted as evidence, that she may be liable to
prosecution if she had indicated anything in it that she knew
was false.

This statement indicated that she last only recollected lying on
the couch at the Gundiah property. She had no recollection of
the events that Petra described, but claimed she then next
remembered waking up lying on a bench in a strange rectangular
room. lamination came from the walls and the ceiling. She was
alone. She indicated she called out and heard what seemed to be
a male voice, asking her to be calm and that everything would be
alright and that she would not be harmed. Soon an opening
appeared in the wall and "a guy" about 6 feet tall walked into
the room. The man appeared to be slender in build but in
perfect proportion, covered head to foot in a full body suit.
He had what seemed to be a black covering mask on his face, with
a hole for his eyes, nose and mouth. He repeated his calming
assurances. Amy felt she had been there a while. The guy told
her they were returning her to a place not far from where they
took her from, because the lights were wrong at the property and
it wasn't safe. She then indicates she found herself lying on
the bed and falling asleep. The next thing she recollects is
that she woke up on the ground with trees around her. She felt
disorientated, could smell the ocean, and indicated she was not
sure how long she tumbled through bushland, but seemingly it was
for a long time, but she felt she wasn't making much progress.
She then came out onto a road that looked like a highway and saw
a light from a petrol station. She walked into the station,
where staff seeing her state, tried to off some assistance. She
accepted some water, as she felt somewhat dehydrated. Initially
she was not able to answer identifying questions, and didn't
know where she was. She was also asked if she had been drinking
or was on drugs, to which she said no. Amy indicated she felt
tired, sore, drained and lethargic. She asked a woman at the
service station to take her to the hospital, as she didn't know
of where else to go. The woman and her friend took Amy to the
hospital. Later Amy spoke with two police officers and also
spoke with her husband Keith from the hospital. She then went
to Mackay police station where she gave the statement of events.
Amy also indicated that this sort of thing had never happened to
her before, but when she was in 5th year school she had seen a
large UFO surrounded by smaller objects.

The police arranged to put Amy in a motel pending the arrival of
her husband. He and Petra arrived during the day and indicated
they spent considerable time with Amy discussing what happen.
Extensive notes were apparently made and photographs were taken
of a triangular arrangement of marks on her inner right thigh,
marks on each heel and the growing out of her hair which she had
dyed earlier in the week. Her hair had apparently started to
show her former colour, suggestive that some considerable time
had passed for her, apparently indicative of rather more than a
few hours. Body hair had allegedly also become somewhat more
pronounced that would otherwise would be apparent for the short
time involved.

Via an Newsagent's a copy of the Australian Ufologist magazine
was purchased, Keith, Petra and Amy started to learn more about
UFOs. Keith Rylance contacted the Australian UFO Research
Network office number mentioned in the magazine. Diane Harrison
took the call Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 15:20 p.m and for the next
hour or so listened to the story that Keith and Amy told. Petra
was apparently sleeping at the time.

Given the nature of the story, its complexity and the fact it
apparently featured the alleged use of "solid light", Diane
decide to bring Bill Chalker into the investigation, making
contact with him during the evening of Friday, October 5th.
Paradoxically Bill was scheduled to talk at a Brisbane UFO
conference on October 13th, and his topics included "solid
light" cases and the application of science to alien abduction
cases. Bill put a call through to them at the motel, securing
permission to record the conversation. Once again Petra was not
available to talk about her part in the alleged events. Keith
Rylance went into considerable detail about the events,
referring often to the notes they had apparently been compiling
during the day. The details described covered the events Petra
had witnessed, what Keith had experienced, and what Amy told
them had happened to her during her experience. Finally Bill
spoke with Amy, focusing mainly on the events before and after
the claimed onboard experiences, because Keith had already gone
into considerable detail about the latter. Bill discussed with
Amy her general responses and her physical state and her current
state of thought on her experiences. Keith Rylance seemed to
what to control how both media and investigators would get
involved. His desire to contact the media promptly drew from
both Diane and Bill the suggestion that he should think very
carefully about the possible ramifications of doing so. Keith
seemed to feel that it was important to get the story out, as it
would come out anyway and this way he could control the way it
did. He was also trying to restrict the way the investigators
could or should look into their experience. He claimed they
didn't need to prove the experience. While he didn't directly
witness the experiences he believed both Amy and Petra.

Given the possible nature of the event, and that irrespective of
the ultimate resolution of the affair, it seemed destined to be
a big story, Diane and Bill decided to undertake an
investigation. They had been given an indication from Keith
Rylance that the three would wait for the investigators to come
to Mackay. The claimants were in no apparent hurry to return to
Gundiah. They gave permission for Bill and Diane to visit the
property on the way. Bill arrived in the Brisbane area on
Tuesday afternoon, October 9th.

Diane and Bill then travelled to Gundiah, arriving at the
Whispering Winds winery property, just after 10 pm. Because of
the lateness of the hour, we got the witnesses permission to
stay there overnight and to conduct whatever investigation we
needed to do. Keith had arranged for a neighbour to regularly
check on the two pets left behind, namely a parrot and a kelpie
dog. He indicated to us that it would be okay to let the dog
off for a run, but warned us it was very friendly but inclined
to jump all over people.

We let the dog off at some point and observed its behaviour. At
one point it did jump up on the window where the damaged screen
was located. This gave some support to the possibility that at
least some, if not all of the damage, could have been caused by
the dog. Some of the damage on closer inspection seemed
suggestive of possible dog damage. Our inspection of the plant
damage also suggested possible prosaic causes, such as heat
stress. A plant at the front of the house had similar damage
and a healthy flowering bush of the same species that was at the
window, was examined by us at Mount Basset lawn cemetery has
similar damaged. A gardener there we spoke to indicated that
the species often had random or more extensive damage of a heat
stress nature from hot sunlight. The prosaic possibilities for
both the screen and the plant damage are only suggestive at this
point and further investigation is required.

We undertook extensive investigations at the property and the
area. Police were very helpful. Our investigation generated
many issues and questions, which we feel need resolution, in
order to assist interpretations of these events. Further
extensive investigations were undertaken in Mackay, focusing in
particular at the area where Amy Rylance returned. These
included attempts to reconstruct the circumstances of Amy's
return, through on-site research. The BP petrol service station
staff were spoken with and a surveillance video tape that may
contain Amy's visit there was provided to us by the station
owner. This part of our investigation also generated many
issues and questions that need resolution if we are to approach
any measure of certainty about the real nature of the events
alleged.

Keith Rylance indicated to us he would be available to us when
we got to Mackay, but it was made clear to us early on the first
day of our investigations there that this wasn't probably going
to be the case. When we contacted the motel where they had been
the night before, their third motel in Mackay, we learned they
had apparently already checked out that morning. We left
messages on their phone but didn't hear from Keith until early
on the afternoon of our second day, as we were leaving Mackay.
In his mobile call, Keith apologised for not being available,
but was indicating they had relocated to an unspecified location
after having fled the area. The primary reason for this Keith
indicated was that they claimed they had a kind of
"men-in-black" experience. In this case Keith was reporting a
pursuit of their vehicle by a high powered dark brown 4 wheel
truck. The nature of this event apparently frightened Keith,
Amy and Petra, prompting Keith to attempt to loose the vehicle
and eventually leave the area.

Before the completion of this preliminary report (14th October)
we have heard from Keith again. We remain hopeful that they
will get into more direct contact with us.

This affair is both extraordinary and controversial. Many have
rushed to judgement, but given it's complex and evolving
dynamics, caution and patience is necessary. We have many
issues and questions we would like to try to resolve. Further
contact with the Rylances and Petra Heller may help this
process. The case is far from closed and requires an objective,
open minded investigation. Only time will give us the
possibility of resolution and certainty about this intriguing
but controversial affair.

---

Regards

Leigh Blackmore
troswell51@optusnet.com.au












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   Oct > Oct 15

                  Re: Probing Abduction Classics - Connors

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 11:24:17 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 07:23:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Probing Abduction Classics - Connors


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto"<ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Probing Abduction 'Classics'
 >Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:11:23 +0200


Luis,

I would like to comment on your post.

I spoke recently of a need for an absolute "Baseline" in alien
abduction scenarios. I will give an example of why I believe
that "details" are not as important in the immediate, than the
actual baseline (bottom line) itself and why the baseline is the
cementing element to looking at the details from individual
perspectives than group perspectives and trying to combine them.

Example:

A family buys a new television set. After setting it up they
gather around in their excitement and expectations. The set is
turned on and and then something perfectly human begins. Most
people would assume that the discussion would be what to watch.
Nope. That doesn't happen.

First, one family member adjusts the color till they are
satisfied. Then, another member attempts to adjust the color to
their perception and so forth. Finally, after awhile, compromise
and agreement reigns and the family begins to bicker on what to
watch first after they have compromised through their
perceptions.

Moral of this example is that human beings are basically the
same, but perceive things just a little differently. Nobody
perceives colors exactly the same as someone else. This applies
to taste, hearing, etc. They compromised over the color settings
but the baseline remains undisputed. They purchased a TV,
brought it home and turned it on. There is no diagreement or
variance on this point.

Thus, the Allagash abduction incident is basically the same.
Each person experienced the abduction from their own
perspective, yet the baseline remains constant. There is
absolutely no diagreement among the experiencers that the event
itself happened. To look at the incident by looking at it from a
group perspective leads to static and nothing is really learned.
Rational methodology is to confirm the baseline and then look at
the personal scenarios as independent units that support the
baseline.

It does not, for example, mean much that one person perceived 3
fingers on an entity and another perceived 4. The undisputed
fact is that the entity, no matter from individual perception
was the same, i.e., the entities had commonality of hands and
fingers and all three experiencers relating the common
experience do not dispute this fact. Baseline for this element
is that the entities had hands and fingers.

Finally, pouncing and spliting hairs on minute details from the
beginning makes for chaotic research and accomplishes nothing
but frustration and semantic argument at the expense of ignoring
the absolute facts first.

Anyway, for what this point may be worth.


Wendy Connors









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                               AA... By The By

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:26:42 +1000
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 07:29:28 -0400
Subject: AA... By The By


List & Others,

The AA flim seems to be the Eveready battery of the UFO world,
it just keeps on going and going. Given Twin F/X's resent
attempt and the recent events here in Australia, I thought it a
good time to have another look at the AA flim from the video
store.

But it wasn't the AA itself that had me rushing for the remote
this time, it was a report about the soldiers who found the live
aliens. It was reported that these soldiers used the butt of
their rifles to pry a small black box away from one of the
terrified aliens.

So this is how we greet a visitor from another world?? Small
wonder they are a little shy in making their presence known to
us.

This brings up many questions about how visitors from other
worlds have been treated by the Military, is the treatment of
these Aliens so bad that it is the primary reason why the likes
of the US military and other agencies are so keen to keep the
whole affair a secret? Was this treatment so bad it caused these
races and/or race to treat us with total contempt?

There have been many reports of the bad treatment of Aliens,
something I must admit I hadn't paid very much attention to up
until now. Though it something I am going to be researching more
closely from now on.

If anyone knows of cases relating to the mistreatment of Aliens,
could they refer me to these links and/or cases please. There
don't seem to be many cases reported after the 1940's. Which
is very interesting and raises more questions.

"Once bitten twice shy" one could say. From an Alien's point of
view that is.


Tophar

PS: I really didn't think TWIN F/X's AA re-creation was that
good, it is easy to copy from a original. I would have been more
impressed if they tried something original. Besides, it is the
year 2001, I can do a re-creation using LigthWave, Bryce4 and 3D
ds MAX. Even down to the point of getting the skin to depress
when touched and I am not even that good at doing 3D imagines.
The wound on the leg also wasn't that real looking. I don't
think it would have fooled many people for all that long.









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   Oct > Oct 15

                 Re: The Abduction of Ann Jefferies - Aubeck

From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@email.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:28:02 +0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 11:46:01 -0400
Subject: Re: The Abduction of Ann Jefferies - Aubeck


 >From: Chris Aubeck
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 00:19:07 +0800
 >Subject: The Abduction Of Ann Jefferies


 >Dear List members,

 >As I have been preparing an article about early claims of abduction
 >for a popular magazine over here, I thought I'd share my summary
 >of the Ann Jefferies 'case' with other List members, before I
 >translate it into Spanish.

I would just like to clarify my comment on the sexual content in
the Ann Jefferies case (I summarised a longer paragraph in a few
lines to make my post shorter, and then regretted it!).
Yesterday I wrote:

It is not exactly a typical "modern-style" account of abduction,
despite Jenny Randles' incorrect statement that it concerns
"several human- sized creatures who seemed fascinated by
reproduction" that Jefferies "believed she�had a sexual rapport
with."

What I meant was that while it is true that Jefferies finds a
sexual partner in the fairies' realm, it is misleading to state
that this man expresses a "fascination" about "human
reproduction." Furthermore, the emphasis in the earliest (and
most reliable) version is on small creatures, and our only
source which mentions human-sized ones comes from a literary
version of the story published 200 years later. It is safe to
assume this part of the account was not given by Jefferies
herself. Tales of 'fairy lovers' were very popular in the 19th
century (and before) and it would have seemed natural to fill in
the 'missing time' experienced by Jefferies with a romantic
affair.

In any case, the 'kissing' she received in the literary version
came from the little! folk, not the human-sized ones.

Other traditional stories illustrate the similarities between
modern and ancient accounts far better than the Ann Jefferies
case. Take, for example, the story of Mr. Noy.

****************************************************************


The Abduction of Mr. Noy

In the Cornish account of The Fairy Dwelling on Selena Moor the
victim is a farmer from Buryan, William Noy. Firstly, he
vanishes. A search party is sent out. Three days later he is
discovered unconscious in an abandoned barn. When awoken he is
oblivious to the fact that so much time has passed. He tells his
story:

As he took a short cut through the moor on his way home he got
lost. He wandered thus until he saw lights in the distance and
heard music. "His horse and dogs shrank back and would not come
with him..." He there came upon a little house and next to it a
party of strange people drinking and dancing merrily "but they
looked to him very small." Noy spots near them a friend of his
who appears to have been kidnapped by them. The woman is pleased
to see him and proceeds to explain her predicament:

"One evening she was out on Selena Moor looking for a stray
sheep when she heard Mr. Noy hallooing to his dogs, so she took
a short cut towards him, and got lost in a place where the ferns
were above her head, and so wandered round as if she was
pixy-led. At length, worn out with hunger and thirst, she
plucked a beautiful golden plum from one of the trees, and began
to eat it. It dissolved into bitter water in her mouth, and she
fell to the ground in a faint. When she revived she found
herself surrounded by a crowd of little people who laughed and
rejoiced at getting a neat girl to bake and brew for them and to
look after their mortal babies, who were not so strong, they
said, as they used to be in the old days.

�She said their lives seemed [to her] unnatural and a sham.
'They have little sense of feeling; what serves them in a way as
such, is merely the remembrance of whatever pleased them when
they lived as mortals - maybe thousands of years ago.' "

Mr. Noy found out many other things about the weird creatures:
"they &nb! sp; are not of our religion but are
star-worshippers," said his friend. "They disliked to be seen,
above all by daylight, because they then looked aged and grim."
(see W. Bottrell's Traditions and Hearthside Stories of West
Cornwall Penzance, 1870-1880 vol. II)


The points of interest in this early 19th century story as
regards its connection with alien abduction are as follows:

1) A man vanishes mysteriously.
2) He is entranced by sounds and lights in an isolated setting.
3) His animals, a horse and a dog, sense the presence of
    non-human entities and refuse to accompany him further.
4) He finds himself among a group of low-statured creatures.
5) He meets another abductee, whom he knows.
6) She describes her own abduction.
7) This involves her taking a bitter liquid apparently given to
    her by the beings.
8) Her task of nursing the creatures' peevish babies.
9) The cold, unemotional attitude of the creatures (contrasting
    sharply with the joyful gathering which Noy thought he saw at
    the beginning).
10) The "thousands of years" that the creatures had been on the
     earth.
11) The 'star worship' link.
12) The beings' dislike for being seen.

The illusionary plum that became bitter liquid in the female
abductee's mouth recalls the amnesia-inducing potion
administered to other abductees. In her first book about
abductions Jenny Randles described two cases, one in England and
the other in the USSR, in which strange drinks were used to
cause witnesses to forget their UFO encounters. These cases both
took place in 1978, one in June and the other in May. In the
Russian case the liquid was said to have "tasted like lemonade
with salt in it."

In the ancient Celtic tale of Cuchulainn's abduction to
fairyland, a similar drink is used to cause him to forget all
about his experience in the realm of the Sidhe:

"the druids brought a drink of forgetfulness, and, when he drank
that, he forgot...everything he had done."

In October 1991, Katherina Wilson's husband Erik was abducted by
aliens which used a bitter-tasting knockout drug.

"The Being told me telepathically, 'It is time for you to go to
sleep.' A primal fear set in as I pleaded him not to do this
again. As I begged, he quickly raised his left hand over my head
and released a metallic powder over my face. I could taste the
bitter substance that fell onto my face and lips as I drifted
away and lost consciousness." (Katherina Wilson, The Alien
Jigsaw, Portland, Oregon: Puzzle Publishing, 1993, p.193)


There are many more cases of this kind. It is not possible to
describe them without using the word 'abduction' as in fact this
is the very word used even in the last century to refer to
incidents of 'kidnap by fairies'!


Notes � Chris Aubeck


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                     Re: Rudolf Fenz 1847-1950? - Aubeck

From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@email.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:50:46 +0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 11:49:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Rudolf Fenz 1847-1950? - Aubeck


Hello List,

I know I've asked about this before but I'm going to do so again
as it's something that keeps cropping up.

I am referring to the case of Rudolf Fenz.

Where did this story originate?


Here's a mention of it at

http://www.inexplicata.com/samizdat/in_the_wink_of_an_eye.html


IN THE WINK OF AN EYE: MYSTERIOUS DISAPPEARANCES

by Scott Corrales

Some of the cases read like science-fiction in their
thriller-like quality (bear in mind that science fiction author
Isaac Asimov used a mysterious disappearance to transport one of
his protagonists to the future in A Pebble in the Sky) and
detail.

In 1950, a New York City paper allegedly carried a four-line
news item relating the death of a pedestrian hit by a car near
Times Square. The car had apparently been unable to stop and a
crowd of onlookers ran to offer assistance to the unfortunate
victim, one Rudolf Fenz, who was pronounced dead.

There were details to the sad but uneventful story which were
impossible to overlook: the late Rudolf Fenz was wearing
decidedly vintage clothing - a frock coat, narrow trousers,
buckle shoes and a matching hat. His pockets contained several
calling cards to his name, an invoice regarding the lodging and
upkeep of a horse and carriage, and a letter postmarked 1876.

A search of the New York phone book revealed the number of a
Rudolf Fenz, Jr., who had passed away some years earlier.
Nonetheless, his widow was able to tell investigator Hubert V.
Rihn of the Missing Persons division that her late husband's
father had disappeared mysteriously in 1876 while on a trip to
the local tobacconist, and never returned home.

Rihn allegedly looked through records for that year and found
that one Rudolf Fenz, age 29, had disappeared on the same night,
last seen wearing a black frock coat, narrow trousers, and
buckle shoes.

And here it is in Spanish:


http://www.havengar.freeservers.com/pdimensao.html

My previous post at UFO UpDates was:

http://www.aliensonearth.com/ufo/updates/2001/aug/m21-019.shtml

Maybe someone at Fortean Times has come across it before? I'd
appreciate the feedback.


Chris Aubeck


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   Oct > Oct 15

                    Security Precautions in New York City

From: "Jan Aldrich" <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:16:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 11:56:59 -0400
Subject: Security Precautions in New York City


Hello John Velez,

I can't seem to find your message in the "Technology Leaders
Ponder Fingerprint ID System" thread, and anyway I don't want to
get entangled in that messy thread.

The reason for the show of force in New York and elsewhere with
National Guardsmen and barriers and check points has reasons
beyond the terrorist threat. Copy cats, idiots and mentally ill
people.

When I was in Germany during the Gulf War, one of my assignments
was to come up with a plan for security of our post. Since the
PX, gas station, commissary, and housing areas were outside the
fenced-in areas this presented big problems.

The Special Weapons NCO and I went over to the military
intelligence and read everything we could find on the Iraqi
terrorists. They weren't too impressive at the time - now they
have become more competent and a threat close to the level of
Osama. However, at the time it was thought they might have some
terrorists in Germany and they might have the help of the
Communists governments, especially East Germany. There also was
the German "Red Army Faction" (RAF) and various other
Euroterrorists who might also take advantage of the scene, but
the reminder of this RAF group were cowardly people who were
willing to try to kill others as long as there was no
possibility that they would get a scratch. However, they had in
the past and probably would try to take advantage of any lax
security. Other problems that you have in this type of situation
involved copy cats, people with grudges, idiots, and mentally
ill people.

The idea was, with the soldiers available, to mount a guard
force, use barriers and checkpoints to discourage these last
groups of people, a show of force firstly and secondly to
possible disrupt other more competent terrorists. So we
established fixed guard posts, every fixed post had to be
visible to the other guard posts to the right and left. In the
parking lots vehicles were checked. Vehicles entering the post
were searched and checked with mirrors for possible bombs and
they had to go through a "snaked" barrier lined route so they
could not crash the gates. Similar measures for commercial and
contract delivery vehicles involved with the PX and commissary
were in place.

Besides this, we established walking patrols of two men each
with hand held radios. We sent patrols out in 15 minute
intervals each time the rear patrol lost sight of the lead
patrol, the rear patrol called in on their radio. In the fenced
areas, we had patrols on the outside of the fence one going in a
clockwise direction and patrols inside the fense going in a
counterclockwise direction.

In addition we had vehicle-mounted patrols that just drove
around the area, and a squad of off duty guards to act as a
reaction force with a vehicle for any problems.

In one of the highrise appartment buildings we put an overwatch
guard with starlight-scope and binos to keep a watch on
everything.

The Germans, of course, had overall police authority, they had
assigned civilian police to patrol unprotected areas, and
reserve military police had been called up to provide added
security. All that I saw was an occassional German military
police vehicle, but when a horn got stuck on a school bus, these
guys converged from every direction in about a dozen vehicles.

We had several incidents where we thought we had been scouted.
In one case we had a license plate number that the German police
found had belonged to a junked vehicle and was therefore phony.

No one knows if these measures prevented anything from happening,
but it may have just prevented some jerk who identified with
Sadam from trying something.

In the US we now have jerks who placed pipe bombs under a bridge
here in Connecticut, and idiots who decide to play a prank on a
guy station on a local military base by tying a bunch of loose
electrical wires under a car to make it look like a bomb. So the
show of force in New York is part confidence building and part
an attempt to stop people inspired by the terrorists from
becoming "heroes" and other jerks that seem to come out when
these things happen.


Jan Aldrich









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                      Re: Baloney Detection - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 10:13:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:06:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Baloney Detection - Maccabee


 >Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:29:14 -0400
 >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Baloney Detection


 >Source: Scientific American

 >http://www.sciam.com/2001/1101issue/1101skeptic.html

 >Baloney Detection

 >How to draw boundaries between science and pseudoscience, Part I

 >By Michael Shermer

...........

 >When lecturing on science and pseudoscience at colleges and
 >universities, I am inevitably asked, after challenging common
 >beliefs held by many students, "Why should we believe you?" My
 >answer: "You shouldn't."

 >I then explain that we need to check things out for ourselves
 >and, short of that, at least to ask basic questions that get to
 >the heart of the validity of any claim. This is what I call
 >baloney detection, in deference to Carl Sagan, who coined the
 >phrase "Baloney Detection Kit." To detect baloney--that is, to
 >help discriminate between science and pseudoscience--I suggest
 >10 questions to ask when encountering any claim.>

 >1. How reliable is the source of the claim? Pseudoscientists
 >often appear quite reliable, but when examined closely, the
 >facts and figures they cite are distorted, taken out of context
 >or occasionally even fabricated. Of course, everyone makes some
 >mistakes. And as historian of science Daniel Kevles showed so
 >effectively in his book The Baltimore Affair, it can be hard to
 >detect a fraudulent signal within the background noise of
 >sloppiness that is a normal part of the scientific process. The
 >question is, Do the data and interpretations show signs of
 >intentional distortion? When an independent committee
 >established to investigate potential fraud scrutinized a set of
 >research notes in Nobel laureate David Baltimore's laboratory,
 >it revealed a surprising number of mistakes. Baltimore was
 >exonerated because his lab's mistakes were random and
 >nondirectional.


Comment: "How reliable is the source of the claim?" For UFOs
this reads as follows:

"How reliable is the UFO skeptic who proposes an explanation for
a particular UFO sighting? "

_Note_well_ that to propose an explanation is to _make_a_claim_:
such and such a UFO sighting is really a... (explanation or
suggested phenomenon.)

What really happens is that the skeptic proposes, often
publicly, "Candidate Explanatory Phenomenon" (CEP) to explain
the sighting.

One presumes that to determine the reliability of the skeptic
who proposes an explanation one should look at previous
explanations suggested by said skeptic and determine what
fraction of thse explanations was correct or at least convincing
(it may noe be possible to determine whether or not an
explanatio is correct, but it should be possible to determine
whether or not an explanation is convincing to at least some
level of acceptance or (gulp) "belief.")

Example: How reliable is PJKlass who proposed Mars and Jupiter
to explain the Japan Airlines sighting (JAL1628) of Nov. 1986?
The explanation was hardly convincing... comparing the known
characteristics of Mars and Jupiter with the descriptions by the
air crew shows great disparity.

So, should we trust Klass to propose a correct explanation for
another sighting... such as Kenneth Arnold (for which PJK
proposed a meteor train)

I would suggest that Mr. Shirmer's point #1 be applied to UFO
skeptics as well as t believers.


 >2. Does this source often make similar claims? Pseudoscientists
 >have a habit of going well beyond the facts. Flood geologists
 >(creationists who believe that Noah's flood can account for many
 >of the earth's geologic formations) consistently make outrageous
 >claims that bear no relation to geological science. Of course,
 >some great thinkers do frequently go beyond the data in their
 >creative speculations. Thomas Gold of Cornell University is
 >notorious for his radical ideas, but he has been right often
 >enough that other scientists listen to what he has to say. Gold
 >proposes, for example, that oil is not a fossil fuel at all but
 >the by-product of a deep, hot biosphere (microorganisms living
 >at unexpected depths within the crust). Hardly any earth
 >scientists with whom I have spoken think Gold is right, yet they
 >do not consider him a crank. Watch out for a pattern of fringe
t>hinking that consistently ignores or distorts data.>

2. Does a particular UFO skeptic propose explanations for many
sightings? Do these explanations go "far beyond the facts" or
ignore the facts in favor of particular explanations? Are te
explanations convincing or are they merely "biolerplate"? (Any
explanation is better than none... Any explanation in a storm..)

 >3. Have the claims been verified by another source? Typically
 >pseudoscientists make statements that are unverified or verified
 >only by a source within their own belief circle. We must ask,
 >Who is checking the claims, and even who is checking the
 >checkers? The biggest problem with the cold fusion debacle, for
 >instance, was not that Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischman were
 >wrong. It was that they announced their spectacular discovery at
 >a press conference before other laboratories verified it. Worse,
 >when cold fusion was not replicated, they continued to cling to
t>heir claim. Outside verification is crucial to good science.>

Has a proposed explanation been verified by any other source or
skeptic? This is really a "telling" point made by Shirmer.
Rarely if ever does skeptic #2 comment on an explanation by
skeptic #1, although... there _is_ often a "de facto" review and
rejection by virtue of the fact that skeptic #2 might propose a
_different_ explanation.

 From the scientific point of view it would make sense to propose
a second (or third, wt.) explanation only if the proposer can
demonstrate that the first (or second) explanation is wrong.

In the JAL1628 case PJK evidently provided his own review of his
first (Mars, Jupiter) explanation and then proposed moonlight
reflected from clouds. But I don't recall any _other_ skeptic
commenting on PJK's explanation(s).

In fact, comment by skeptic #2 on the explanation [proposed by
skeptic #1 is a RARE event!

So I suppose Shirmer's criterion here would indicate that
explanations proposed by skeptics are quite often
pseudoscientific because they aren't independently researched
and then supported by other skeptics.


 >4. How does the claim fit with what we know about how the world
 >works? An extraordinary claim must be placed into a larger
 >context to see how it fits. When people claim that the Egyptian
 >pyramids and the Sphinx were built more than 10,000 years ago by
 >an unknown, advanced race, they are not presenting any context
 >for that earlier civilization. Where are the rest of the
 >artifacts of those people? Where are their works of art, their
 >weapons, their clothing, their tools, their trash? Archaeology
 >simply does not operate this way.

This is a "double edged sword" situation: UFO reality,
presumably, is an extraordinary claim. But very often the
proposed explanation is _also_ an extraordinary claim, when taken
ni the context of the evidence/report.

 >5. Has anyone gone out of the way to disprove the claim, or has
 >only supportive evidence been sought? This is the confirmation
 >bias, or the tendency to seek confirmatory evidence and to
 >reject or ignore disconfirmatory evidence. The confirmation bias
 >is powerful, pervasive and almost impossible for any of us to
 >avoid. It is why the methods of science that emphasize checking
 >and rechecking, verification and replication, and especially
 >attempts to falsify a claim, are so critical.

This is a good one! Has anyone (skeptic, that is) attempted to
discpove an explanation? The answer is almost universally no.
Very raraly will the explanation proposed by a skeptic be
scientifically studied by another skeptic or scientist with an
_intent_ to try to disprove the explanation. Instead, what
generally happens is that information contained within a UFO
report is ignored as necessary to make an explanation fit. Now,
I should say that "ignoring information" is a part of the
standard scientific process. But in order to 'get away' with
ignoring information the scientist has to prove it is ignorable.
For example, the scientist may claim that certain information
is part of the "noise level" and can be ignored. But arguments
to ignore UFO related information - report information - are
generally not clearly made.)











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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 15

                  Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:47:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:10:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Clark


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:14:55 +0200

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:40:19 -0500

 >>>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:01:11 +0200

 >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>>Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:13:34 -0500


Luis,

 >>>Of course, you are entitled to think so. My bet would be a tall
 >>>tale on the chemist which backfired.

 >>Based, exactly, on what evidence?

 >None, just suspicions... Exactly the same that in favour of a
 >very peculiar alien abduction (not to say very peculiar way to
 >obtain hybrids) that really was "one of a kind". Never again did
 >we met the same UFO, the same alien garments or the same alien
 >women. As Patrick Huyghe wrote once, regarding UFOs, if we were
 >talking about thousands of identical incidents, nobody will
 >negate them. The problem is that there are no two cases alike.

What a strange notion, and flatly false. How could anyone say
something like that to start with, and then have it, as here,
uncritically repeated?  Yes, Eddie Bullard and Dick Hall, I,
too, am trying hard not to crawl the wall.

Beyond that, one could note that here we see the classically
unfalsifiable debunking hypothesis. To wit: If UFO cases are
unalike, it's because there's no UFO phenomenon. If they are
alike, it's because claimants, consciously or unconsciously, are
patterning their accounts after previously known reports (or SF
stories or films, or whatever); therefore, there's no UFO
phenomenon. Just try to get out of that hermetically sealed box,
ufologists!

 >>In any event, unless you're claiming that all CE3 claimants who
 >>reported what we might now interpret as hybrid beings were
 >>lying, the theory you seem to be proposing makes no sense. We're
 >>talking about experiences, sometimes multiply or independently
 >>witnessed.

 >No, my claim is that some CE3 claimants _did_ lie, and all the
 >rest were mistaken or believe in their unconscious
 >confabulations or fantasies they recalled under hypnosis.

Debunking 101, I see. In any case, that seems a tall order to
prove, especially given impressive numbers of credible witnesses
and multiply and/or independently witnessed CE3s. In any event,
so far debunkers who have taken on individual cases haven't done
all that well, in my observation. (See Klass on just about any
CE3, or you on John Velez's experiences.) Perhaps it's easier to
speak in sweeping generalizations about what may be a
discomforting reality than to deal with the complexities and
pigeon-hole-resisting vagaries of UFO- reporting and
-experiencing. Or, to put in another way, to pretend that we
know a whole lot more than we do.

Where the abduction phenomenon (as opposed to the more general
close-encounter experience) is concerned, incidentally, I have
set out my views in The Anomalist 8 (Spring 2000); see my "From
Mermaids to Little Gray Men: The Prehistory of the UFO Abduction
Phenomenon," 11-31. Allow me to quote myself - this is the last
paragraph:

"What may be defeating our understanding ... is a lack of
vocabulary as much as anything. Experience anomalies refuse
pigeon-holing, and they promise without ever quite delivering.
Maybe we need to look at the so far intractable problem of the
abduction phenomenon from a new perspective, one that respects
witness testimony in a way that such testimony deserves to be
respected, yet also does not duck the question of why we are as
far as ever from being able to prove that UFO abductions are
events that happen in the world. A perspective that puts
abduction experiences into a larger historical context, and one
that acknowledges how much we don't know about the world outside
us, the world inside us, and maybe even that shadowy world that
may, in some fashion supremely difficult to grasp, be in both
places at once."

 >>In fact, most folklorists believe that even the most outlandish
 >>folklore (e.g., that concerning fantastic creatures such as
 >>merbeings and fairies) may grow out of experiences, or perceived
 >>experiences, and not the other way around

 >Yes, we are talking about experiences, but are they objective or
 >subjective? Was patrolman Schirmer really abducted by beings from
 >"Mars Needs Women"? Was really a cow abducted at Leroy, Kansas,
 >in 1897? Did really Adamski (or Katharina Wilson) travel to the dark
 >side of the Moon?

I don't know about Mars Needs Women, but I do know of a case I
investigated, years prior to the appearance of that movie, in
which very similar entities to those Schirmer reported were
described. This is another reason I am not a "skeptic." Come to
think of it, Schirmer's story was published more than two
decades before MNW. Or are you arguing that Schirmer had
precognitive powers? Or that the aliens in a particular SF film
were patterned after those Schirmer described?

To the second question you raise: of course not. One doesn't
have to engage in sweeping speculation to dismiss the LeRoy
story, which I personally and conclusively debunked in 1976 (my
article on the subject appearing in the February 1977 issue of
Fate), as you may not know.

To the third, Adamski was a hoaxer and, unless you have clear
and specific evidence showing Katharian Wilson (a manifestly
honest woman in my observation, whatever the true nature of her
experience) to be the same, you're simply playing a rhetorical
game. Unless you believe apples are in fact oranges, their two
names should not be appearing in the same sentence.


Jerry Clark









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 15

               Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID -

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 11:08:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:34:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID -


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 14:24:41 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID
 >>Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 17:48:36 -0600

<snip>

 >The proof of our ill-representation exists in our faces. The UFO
 >and abduction phenomena is a prime proof. The argument which
 >should be used in any apologetic narative over the rights of
 >humankind. Of US citizens. And in Canada (sorry guys) and
 >England and Australia, there are even fewer rights granted to
 >their citizens.

 >But then I guess our neighbors have fewer problems than we with
 >the use of the evil nug. Eh? And the evil weed. And the evil
 >needle with all the damage done. Eh?

<snip>


Hello Jim, and List.

Huh?

Fewer rights in Canada?

For the rich maybe..... More to the poor.

Been North of the border lately?

Ahem... In the past 30 years?

And there should be a connection between the terrorist attacks
and the "most free place in the world"?

I prescribe a triple dose of International news programs and
absolute interdiction to watch CNN.


Best,

Serge










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   Oct > Oct 15

                           Secrecy News - 10/12/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:27:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:26:07 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News - 10/12/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
October 12, 2001


**BUSH YIELDS TO CONGRESS ON ACCESS RESTRICTIONS
**HOUSE ETHICS COMMITTEE STRESSES SECRECY OATH
**PUBLIC ACCESS TO GOVERNMENT INFO CURTAILED
**REVISITING INTELLIGENCE REFORM


BUSH YIELDS TO CONGRESS ON ACCESS RESTRICTIONS

The White House on Wednesday abandoned its October 5 memo that
limited congressional briefings involving classified information
to eight members of Congress, following strong congressional
criticism.

"It's important that members of Congress have information that
they need to do their proper oversight activities," explained
newly enlightened White House spokesman Ari Fleischer on October
10.  See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/10/wh101001.html

On Friday, the White House further eased restrictions so as to
permit classified briefings to all members of the Intelligence
Committees, not just the Committee leaders, according to an
Associated Press report.


HOUSE ETHICS COMMITTEE STRESSES SECRECY OATH

The House Committee on Standards of Official Conduct sent a memo
today to all Members reminding them to comply with their oath to
protect classified information.

"Violations of the Classified Information Oath ... are
violations of the Code of Official Conduct and are sanctionable
as such," the memo stated.

"At all times and especially in this time of our country's war
on terrorism the Committee on Standards takes the obligations
imposed by the Classified Information Oath with the greatest
seriousness."

See the October 12 memorandum here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/oath.html


PUBLIC ACCESS TO GOVERNMENT INFO CURTAILED

"Several critics of secrecy in government complained that the
Bush administration was using the crisis created by the terror
attacks to clamp down inappropriately on the flow of information
to the public," writes Ken Fireman in Newsday.  See:

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/sns-worldtrade-secrecy-n
yn.story

The National Imagery and Mapping Agency has purchased exclusive
rights to all of the commercial high-resolution satellite
imagery of Afghanistan offered by imagery vendor Space Imaging,
thereby precluding public access to this unclassified product,
UPI reported on Friday. See:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2001/011012-attack05.htm

The non-profit OMB Watch is compiling an inventory of government
web sites that have modified or removed information from public
access following September 11.  See:

http://www.ombwatch.org/info/2001/access.html


REVISITING INTELLIGENCE REFORM

Senator Arlen Specter is circulating a new draft bill somewhat
grandiosely entitled "The Intelligence Reform Act of 2001."

Intelligence reform held out great promise in the mid-1990s, but
eventually came to naught.  Some of the minor reforms that were
adopted, such as intelligence budget disclosure, were later
reversed.

Senator Specter's bill focuses modestly on the recommendation of
the Aspin-Brown-Rudman Commission to strengthen the role of the
Director of Central Intelligence.

He presented the bill, along with companion legislation on
homeland security, on the Senate floor on October 10.  See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2001_cr/s101001.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
<majordomo@lists.fas.org> with this command in the body of the
message:

         subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:
         http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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   Oct > Oct 15

                  Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:29:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:31:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:17:23 +0200

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 04:04:36 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:35:40 +0200

 >Dear John,

Hello Luis,

You wrote:

 >If you and the List indulge me, we can discuss your case at
 >length.....

Already have. _Several_ times. And right here on this List.

 >Of course, you have been over the details of that night at least
 >100,000 times. I cannot even imagine your emotional turnmoil.
 >But even if I cannot accept that your abduction was a physical
 >incident, I really respect you and your fellows abductees.

Ok, so you admit going into this conversation/discussion with
your mind already made up that nothing 'physical' happened. Let
me ask you one if I may. Why should I engage you (or anyone
else) in a "lengthy" discussion about an event that you have
already prejudged?

"Maybe" if you were at least willing to keep an open mind there
would be some point to it. But another 'circular' argument over
something that you have already decided is not real/physical, no
thanks. I've been down this particular path so many times with
so many others, that I am really not amenable to conduct any
kind of dialog with people who have passed judgement up front.
And that without a nod or a second thought for the possibility
that the event was a real one and had transpired as reported.

It's like asking me if I wish to participate in a 'circle jerk.'
No thanks. I'll answer your questions here Luis. But please
understand that I don't care whether you personally "believe me"
or not. All I am doing is discharging the dictates of my
conscience, being responsible to my fellow creatures, by
reporting. What folks do with it after that is their business
and entirely up to them. I don't see it as my job (or
responsibility) to try to convince anybody of anything.

I am standing up to be counted among those who are reporting
UFO/alien abduction. I do so because it has happened to me. I am
not under any obligation to endlessly debate/discuss it solely
because you cannot accept what is being reporting by so many of
your peers at face value.

You don't offer to "investigate," you offer to debate. Been dere
done dat. I'll respond to your questions, but I do not wish to enter
into (another) lengthy debate with anyone who has already made
up their minds before we even begin. It's a complete waste of time.

 >Let's follow an order:

 >1. You saw a UFO, "A light shaped like a football, the size of a
 >smal van floating about 10-12 m above the roofs, at about 18 m
 >from you". Did it appeared suddenly?

I was walking home. I have a tendency to either look straight ahead
or to keep my eyes down when I walk. As I approached the corner of
the street I lived on the brightness of the light caught my attention
immediately and drew my eyes up towards the object. The object
was stationary (hovering) over the roof of the corner building.

 >On principle, I do not accept at face value any UFO description,
 >even if the witness knocked in its hull!

Then why bother asking? It's like a cop telling a mugging
victim; "I don't believe you were robbed but, tell me your story
anyway so I can fill out a report." What's the point?

 >We have been scalded so many times!

Which is why it so important to work at maintaining an open mind
rather than prejudging every report that comes along because
you've been burned a few times. Not _everyone_ who reports this
kind of phenomena is full of s**t.

 >But nevertheless, your sighting could have been just
 >one more in a long statistic.

It's one hell of a statistical category to fall into though eh?

 >2. You got scared. Why?

Are you serious with this question? It was a frightening and
unnatural sight. It was a large, silent, glowing, unidentified
flying object. It was not like anything else I had ever seen
before. It was not like anything "we" manufacture and put into
the air. I didn't think even for a moment that it was "one of
ours." Mostly I got scared because the "event" (sighting) seemed
to be focused on me! There was nobody else around.

 >Did it come towards you?

As I was momentarily frozen in my tracks, standing there staring
at it in shock, with my mind reeling/racing to identify the
thing, it slowly began to move _away_ from me. Out of my line of
sight. That it was 'moving' at all made it all the more
frightening. I was entertaining the thought that I was looking
at a fixed bank of stadium lights that the landlord had placed
on the roof of the building. I was in fact trying to determine
if the object was supported by unseen struts when it began to
move backwards and away from me. Slowly.

 >Did you have to go near in order to reach your home?

My residence was on the same block, but down the street from the
building that the object was hovering over. I had to run about
3/4 of a city block to reach my house.

 >Of course, human reactions
 >vary but you must recognize that so a sudden panic is unusual.
 >Awe, surprise, even curiosity, but panic without motive?.

I have stated many, many times that that kind of 'reaction' was
uncharacteristic of me and that the level of the fear/paranoia
that I was suddenly feeling was way out of the ordinary for me.
I just suddenly felt very insecure. As if, "someone" was going
to "get me." So I started (at first) jogging towards my house. I
only wanted to put as much distance between myself and that
"thing" as I could. I thought I was behaving wisely if you ask
me.

By the time I had gotten about half way down the block I was in
an all-out pumping run for my life. Yes, I found the level of
"fear" that I was experiencing to be very unusual myself.

Maybe it was an unconscious response to something I
'subconsciously' knew/felt was about to happen. Who knows. The
level of fear _was_ unusual though and uncharacteristic of me as
I have stated repeatedly in the past. There was something
strange about the paranoia that suddenly gripped me. And "grip
me" it did.

 >But, of course, if you already know _subconsciously_ that you
 >were going to be abducted again, your panic was totally
 >justified.

Why "of course" Luis? I "suspect" that that _may be_ true, but I
have no way of knowing for sure. And I would never form a firmly
held 'belief' based on such an assumption. Neither should you.
It's 'plausible' but not "for sure."

 >3. One split-second later you awoke in your bed, unaccounted
 >hours had passed, your nose bleeding and your eye swollen.

Try to put yourself into this picture Luis.

You are running as fast as you can in a state of 'fight or
flight.' It is dark/night. One stride hits the ground, and
before the next one lands, you are suddenly sitting up in your
bed, the streaming morning light fills the room, you are in your
underwear, (The clothes you were wearing are now off) there are
signs of blood, and you cannot open one of your eyes. I've said
it a hundred times and I'll say it again; it was the single most
disorienting, confusing, and unsettling moment of my life.

There was absolutely no sensation of _any_ time having passed
between that last running step the night before, and sitting up
in bed with my clothes off hours later and with my one eye
closed shut. I don't know if it's possible for you to imagine
what something like that feels like.

Out of the ordinary? You betcha. It was for me anyway.

 >Another question: Was it still bleeding or had the blood already
 >coagulated? Were your bed dressings or pillow stained?.

The bleeding had stopped. There was a trail of blood going down
my face, past the corner of my mouth, down the side of my neck,
and the collar part of the tee-shirt had blood on it. The pillow
case and a small part of the cover sheet of the bed also had
blood smears on them.

The downward direction of the blood flow indicates that my body
must have been in a vertical position when the active bleeding
took place. (On my feet or sitting up) If I had bled while
laying on my back, and facing the ceiling, the blood trail on my
face would have gone over my cheek and towards my ear. If I had
been laying on my stomach, it would have accumulated on the
pillow mostly and there would not have been much anywhere else.
I bled while vertical or when I moved into a vertical position.
That bleeding did not happen when I suddenly sat up in bed
because the bleeding had already stopped when I awakened.

 >If we accept your hipnosis recall, you were undressed
(totally?) >when the mantis alien probed your nose, but no
bleeding is >described then.

I'm not asking you or anyone else to "accept" my hypnosis
recollections. I myself don't accept them 100% so why would I
expect anybody else to?

Yes, I was naked at the time of the (supposed) procedure. And I
really don't know if I was bleeding then. I was confronted with
the sight of a being that; did not resemble anything human; that
was holding some kind of wand/probe in his hand; and that was
coming toward me as it if it had purpose. I 'could have'
released the contents of my bowels for all I knew.

I would imagine that if anything _was_ inserted up my nose, that
it could have been the cause of the nose bleed. Two doctors,
just hours afterwards, asked me what the "surgery" in my head
was for. They both used the word "surgery" when asking their
questions.

You might also want to note:

My wife was hospitalized for five days (about eight years ago)
for a sudden and very severe nose-bleed. The ENT specialist
(head of the ENT department at St. John's Hospital here in New
York) after performing his examination of the inside of her
head, asked both of us, her _and_me_ about her "surgery". My
wife hasn't ever had any "surgery" performed inside her head
either. Yet we have both (independently) been asked the same
question by _three_ different physicians.

I don't know. Maybe it's common to be asked such a thing. Has
your personal physician ever asked you why you had a surgical
procedure performed inside of your head? I would think that it
is an unusual question at best.

 >Did you recall under hipnosis how and where did they returned
 >you?

Yes.

 >Did they drop you in the bed and your garments on the floor
 >nearby?

I was _placed_ very gently, as if tucking in a child, into my
bed. My clothes were in a small pile on the floor near the foot
of the bed. (No blood anywhere on my street clothes.) They,
(whatever those "things" were) were very 'gentle' about how I
was handled and returned to my bed. The whole experience with
'them' was horrible for me. But from their end they seemed to be
as accommodating as they could. They do what they do quickly,
efficiently, and with the precision of a planned military
operation.

 >It is my experience that even with a helping subject, it is
 >quite difficult to totally undress a person (buttons, zippers,
 >bra fasteners -not your case, of course-) in a short time and
 >without tearing. But still worse is to dress him/her again.

They do it on Broadway in shows/plays a hundred times a night.
And in lightning fast time in some cases. What's so "hard"?
Especially if you have an 'experienced' team performing the
operation.

 >We have a fact. Your nose-bleeding.

... and the UFO, the missing time, and the nose bleeding along
with the badly swollen eye.

 >But when did it happen?

Between the time I was running away from the UFO and the moment
I awoke the next morning. I thought I reported the sequence of
events fairly clearly. (?)

 >Each possibility has its problems,

Maybe for you Luis. Not to me. It's eminently clear to me that
something highly unusual and way out of the ordinary happened to
me that night. You are (of course) entitled to interpret those
events any way that you wish. It doesn't change the _actuality_
of them one little bit.

 >the data provided in the book is not enough to dilucidate.

I have noted on more than one occasion (on-List and to Peter
himself) that he was just a bit 'selective' about leaving out
some details that I thought were important and supported my
interpretation of the events more than his. I'm not saying that
that is why he left them out. Only that it would have put a
'few' difficult to explain holes into his own theories.

 >This is going longer than I think, and I do not want to bore the
 >people. Just one more question:

Neither do I Luis.

 >What was your "Realization Event", when all the pieces on your
 >life dropeed in place forming an alien abduction scenario?
 >According to Brookesmith it was in 1993 after reading Missing
 >Time.

That is correct. I knew nothing about 'ufology' or 'abductions'
much less anything about the details being reported by others.
It was a jolting experience to read the facts/details/reports of
others that were _identical_ to my own. Strangers were talking
about things that I thought had _only_ happened to me. Things I
would never have spoken aloud to anyone for fear of being
thought of as "crazy." Yes, it was a real eye opener to hear my
deepest and most secret memories coming from the lips of
complete strangers.

 >14 years after the main event. Is it really there no
 >possibility of some _unconscious_ "embellishement"?

Nope. Not at all. I am _extremely_ careful about reporting
precisely what transpired. Nothing more, nothing less. I know
how important it is for me to present _only_ the facts so that
any independent person/researcher can formulate their own
thoughts/opinions without having to sift through any
"embellishments" or spurious content. I report the details of my
experiences as if I was reporting them to a cop. Siempre.

I am always very careful, and I go out of my way to do it that
way. It is a 'conscious' act.

 >Next: the medical diagnostic.

I don't think so Luis. I am not a physician. I have no way to
know what kind of visual evidence they were relying on to arrive
at the determination that I had had "surgery." You would have to
ask them. Like you said earlier, you've already made up your
mind that what I am reporting could not represent an
"actual/physical" event. I've cooperated by answering these
questions (above) for you, but I don't see any point in
continuing a discussion with a 'closed mind.' One that has
arrived at conclusions _before_ securing all the information. I
consider it a waste of my time.

Wanna conduct a formal investigation? Get me somebody who has no
arrived at firm conclusions regarding this phenomenon and who is
actually qualified to conduct such an investigation. I would let
a Royce Meyers (a cop) investigate my case before I would engage
with someone who has preconceived notions.

If I'd known what it 'meant' to go to a Budd Hopkins or a John
Mack _before_ I reported, I wouldn't have contacted either of
them. I prefer as much objectivity as I can get in any
investigator.

You ain't 'it' either.


Regards,

John Velez



            A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
            www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                 johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
  "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









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   Oct > Oct 16

                     Eras News: Weekly Briefing 10.15.01

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:00:54 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:35:28 -0400
Subject: Eras News: Weekly Briefing 10.15.01


ERAS NEWS
The E-News Service of The Eras Project

http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

October 15, 2001

_____________________________


WEEKLY BRIEFING
10.15.01


Global Conciousness Project's Analysis of September 11 Terrorist Attacks
(Princeton University)
http://noosphere.princeton.edu/terror.html

New Life on Mars Evidence 'Conclusive'
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_419740.html

Is There Life on Mars?
http://www.brad.ac.uk/admin/pr/pressreleases/2002/mars.htm

Hobbled Odyssey Nears Mars
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/odyssey_update_011010.html

Mars Before Odyssey: A Baffling Legacy of Water and Dust
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/mgs_legacy_011002-1.html

If Life Exists on Mars, Our Robotic Probes May Have Brought it There
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/life-01zg1.html

Returning Rocks from Mars: The Latest Plans
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/missions/marssample_return_011001-1.html

NASA Picks Lockheed Martin to Build 2005 Mars Craft
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/mro_lockheed_011003.html

The Tricky Science of Aerobraking
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/aerobraking_lee_011003-1.html

Asteroid's Mystery 'Blue Ponds'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1565000/1565564.stm

'Hot Breath' of Jupiter's Moon
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1581000/1581544.stm

Space Tourism: Feasible or Flights of Fancy?
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/space_tourism_011004-1.html

The Top 3 Reasons to Colonize Space
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/colonize_why_011008-1.html

Map Ready to Take Photographic Trip Back in Time
http://www.ufocity.com/features.cfm?NewsID=1243

Perfect Photo of 'Perfect Spiral Galaxy'
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/spiral_galaxy_011002.html

Seti@home Expands Its Back Yard
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,47365,00.html

Lab Tests Suggest Baboons Capable of Reasoning
http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/science/10/15/baboonintelligence.ap/index.html

Noah's Ark Found?
http://www.ufocity.com/breaking.cfm?NewsID=875


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   UFO UpDates
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 16

                  Re: UFO UpDate: AA... By The By - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 11:43:50 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:37:43 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: AA... By The By - Tonnies


 >From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: AA... By The By
 >Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:26:42 +1000

 >But it wasn't the AA itself that had me rushing for the remote
 >this time, it was a report about the soldiers who found the live
 >aliens. It was reported that these soldiers used the butt of
 >their rifles to pry a small black box away from one of the
 >terrified aliens.

<snip>

It's been argued that the "rifle butt" anecdote makes the whole
AA legacy sound less-than-genuine - and I'm the first to dismiss
anything "relayed" by Ray Santilli as bunk.

Then again, I can also envision some panic on behalf of the
military if they had reason to believe the "boxes" held by the
"aliens" were a potential threat.

(These "boxes" have been identified as the "control panels"
featured in the "debris footage."  Maybe they doubled as "laptop
computers" when the crew wasn't in flight.)*

*This is written from the purely speculative assumption that the
AA might be real.


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 816-561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
http://mactonnies.com









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   Oct > Oct 16

                  Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:09:47 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:39:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Randle


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:47:58 -0500


 >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:14:55 +0200

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:40:19 -0500

 >>>>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>>Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:01:11 +0200

 >>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>>>Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:13:34 -0500


 >major snip<

Jerry, Luis, List, all -

If I might intrude for just a moment -

 >I don't know about Mars Needs Women, but I do know of a case I
 >investigated, years prior to the appearance of that movie, in
 >which very similar entities to those Schirmer reported were
 >described. This is another reason I am not a "skeptic." Come to
 >think of it, Schirmer's story was published more than two
 >decades before MNW. Or are you arguing that Schirmer had
 >precognitive powers? Or that the aliens in a particular SF film
 >were patterned after those Schirmer described?

If I read this right, Jerry, you are suggesting that Mars Needs
Women appeared about two decades after Schirmer made his
hypnotically induced statement. The copyright  and the original
release on the movie is 1966. I know because I looked it up in
Phil Hardy's The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction Movies.

I would be interested in the timing of the other abduction which
describes the aliens in the way that Schirmer does. As I say,
I'm a bit confused by your paragraph.


KRandle









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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Oct > Oct 16

                      Re: Rendlesham Radiation - Easton

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:35:18 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:55:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Rendlesham Radiation - Easton


Regarding:

 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 23:56:51 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Rendlesham: Landing Deposited 10x Background

Joe wrote:

 >In conclusion,

 >I don't believe that the readings can be viewed as evidence of
 >any sort, either for propounders of a grounded UFO, or the
 >detractors, and any further investigation along these lines is a
 >waste of effort.

Joe,

Point appreciated, I wouldn't have spent any time on this aspect
except that some new information had come to light. Being made
aware of what the 'point five scale' to on the 'Halt tape'
actually related to, allows a further understanding of events.

The significant question which could now be resolved is whether
the levels reported in Halt's memo - between 0.5-0.7 mR/hr -
were ten times higher than the readings taken. We do know what
they thought was being detected as it's well documented on the
tape recording.

To recap, from UFORL discussions:

The most conspicuous clues from Halt's tape recording are:

HALT: That's the best deflection of the needle I've seen yet.
OK, can you give me an estimation. We're on the point five
scale...we're getting...I have trouble reading the scale...

[...]

HALT: Up to seven tenths? Or seven units, let's call it, on the
point five scale.


What was the "point five scale"?

On the AN/PDR-27, there were four ranges of sensitivity which
could be selected:

X1 - between 0-.5 milliroentgens
X10 - between 0-5 milliroentgens
X100 - between 0-50  milliroentgens
X1000 - between 0-500 milliroentgens

See for example:

http://www.execpc.com/~dcshop69/ppttxt.htm

As an informed source further explains:

"Radiation is frequently measured in units called
milliroentgens. A milliroentgen is 1/1000th of a roentgen. In
turn, a roentgen by definition is 'the unit of radiation
exposure in the air.' Geiger counters, radiac sets, and survey
meters measure the radiation at the rate of milliroentgens per
hour (mR/h).

Military personnel familiar with the AN/PDR-27 have told me the
numeric scale read from 0 to 0.5 in 0.010 intervals. The
beta/gamma detection capability is controlled by an adjustment
on the probe. The AN/PDR-27 has four ranges of sensitivity: 0 to
0.5 mR/h, 0 to 5 mR/h, 0 to 50 mR/h, and 0 to 500 mR/h. The
operator would select the range by use of the multiplier switch
on the AN/PDR-27 panel. The multiplier switch has four positions
for the four sensitivity ranges. These four positions are
labeled X1, X10, X100, and X1000. Example of how this would
work: say the operator has the multiplier switch set to X1 and
obtains a reading on the scale at 0.3. This would mean that
radiation has been detected at the rate of 0.3 mR/h. Now, the
operator sets the multiplier switch to the X10 position and
obtains a reading at 0.3 on the numeric scale. This would
actually mean the radiation has been detected at 3.0 mR/h
because we have multiplied the values on the scale by 10 times
(X10). The intervals on the scale would also increase in value
ten times so on the X10 range they would jump from 0.01 to 0.1.
The X100 setting would increase the value on the scale 100 times
(0 to 50 mR/h range), and the X1000 setting would increase it a
thousand times (0 to 500 mR/h range). Keep in mind that as you
increase the multiplier settings; you lessen the detection
sensitivity. The most sensitive detection range is the X1
setting (0 to 0.5 mR/h)".

Halt's memo claims:

"...the area was checked for radiation. Beta/gamma readings of
0.1 milliroentgens were recorded with peak readings in the three
depressions and near the center of the triangle formed by the
depressions. A nearby tree had moderate (0.5-0.7) readings on
the side of the tree toward the depressions".

On the 'point five scale', it's obviously impossible to obtain a
reading greater than 0.5 mR/h. This has been substantiated.

That could only have occurred if the AN/PDR-27 setting was 'X10 -
between 0-5 milliroentgens', or higher.

However, Halt confirms they were utilising, as we would expect,
the most sensitive setting.

Consequently, the 'minor clicks' and levels of 'up to seven
clicks' etc. which were being observed on the 'point five scale'
must have been between 0.05 and 0.07 mR/h.
[END OF EXTRACT]


Note that Halt recalled "Beta/gamma readings of 0.1
milliroentgens were recorded with peak readings...".

However, the scale was graduated from 0 to 0.5 in 0.010
intervals, with each tenth marking being more prominent.
Therefore, surely each graduation - which generated a
corresponding 'click' - was equivalent with an increase of 0.01
milliroentgens, not 0.1 as Halt believed.

We know how many 'clicks' were being detected:

HALT: OK, we're now approaching the area within about 25, 30
feet. What kind of readings are we getting? Anything?

NEVILLES: Just minor clicks.

[...]

NEVILLES: ...up towards seven...just jumped up towards seven
tenths.

[...]

HALT: Up to seven tenths? Or seven units, let's call it, on the
point five scale.

[...]

HALT: You're getting readings on the tree you're taking samples
from on the side facing the suspected landing site.

NEVILLES: Four clicks max.

HALT: Up to four. Interesting. That's right where you're taking
the sample now. Four? That's the strongest point on the tree?

NEVILLES: Yes sir. If you come to the back...there's no clicks
whatsoever.

HALT: No clicks at all on the back - it's all on the...

NEVILLES: ...maybe one or two...

[...]

HALT: You just saw a light? Where? [Unclear] Slow down. Where?

ENGLUND: Right on this position here. Straight ahead, in between
the trees - there it is again. Watch - straight ahead, off my
flashlight there, sir. There it is.

HALT: I see it, too. What is it?

VOICE: We don't know, sir.

VOICE: Can I just have a...

HALT: It's a strange, small red light, looks to be maybe a
quarter to a half mile, maybe further out. I'm gonna switch off.

HALT: The light is gone now. It was approximately 120 degrees
from the site...

VOICE: It's back again.

HALT: Is it back again?

VOICE: Yes, sir.

HALT: Well douse flashlights then. Let's go back to the edge of
the clearing so we can get a better look at it. See if you can
get the Starscope on it. The light's still there and all the
barnyard animals have gone quiet now. We're heading about 110,
120 degrees from site out through to the clearing now, still
getting a reading on the meter, about two clicks.

HALT: Needle's jumped, three to four clicks, getting stronger.

VOICE: Now it's stopped... Now it's coming up... Hold on. There
we go... about approximately four foot off the ground, at a
compass heading of 110 degrees.

HALT: He's turned the meter off. Better say that again. About
four feet off the ground, about 110 degrees, getting a reading
of about four clicks?
[END]


 >It seems reaonable to assume that the probe was held directly
 >over the depressions, and close to, or even inside them.
 >Readings taken in such a way could easily be affected by old
 >building rubble, or foreign natural rock fragments (by foreign,
 >I mean not typical of the local geology). The depressions may
 >even have focussed particles onto the sampling tube.

 From the above transcript, readings were being at all times - as
they walked towards the supposed 'landing site' and away from
it, culminating in what seems to be a suspected 'reading' from
the 'strange light', seemingly four feet off the ground and at
least a quarter of a mile distant!

The AN/PDR-27 operator is instructed to "Hold the probe within 1
inch of the object being monitored".


Aside from the 'point five scale', another clue it was an
AN/PDR- 27 is that this standard model - designed to be "a point
source instrument to monitor low levels of radiation
contamination on personnel, supplies, and equipment" - detected
"GAMMA on all scales and BETA on the two lower scales when the
BETA shield has been opened".

On the tape, we then hear:

HALT: Everything else is just deathly calm. There is no doubt
about it. There's some kind of strange flashing red light ahead.

VOICE: There. It's yellow.

HALT: I saw a yellow tinge in it, too. Weird. It, it appears to
be maybe moving a little bit this way?

[...]

HALT: Keep the flashlights off.

HALT: There's something very, very strange. Check the headset
out, and see if it gets any stronger. OK, give us, give us
your...

NEVILLES: Make a notation that this is on a beta reading too.

HALT: It's a beta reading?

NEVILLES: The beta shield has been removed.
[END]


Again, they appear to be under the impression that radiation
readings could be detected from so far away.


 >According to the recorded dialogue between Halt and the PDR
 >operator, it appears that the instrument was set to the 0.5
 >mRad/hour scale, and the deflection was about 7 graduations on
 >the scale, ie, 0.07 mRad per hour.

 >This amounts to 14% of the full-scale deflection, and having
 >worked on electronic measuring equipment, I would conservatively
 >expect an accuracy at this point on the scale to be in the order
 >of +/- 50% of the value read. This would suggest an actual value
 >of between 0.035-0.105 mRad/hour.

That seems to be what we can evidence, although I'm sure you can
agree that the readings are unreliable and largely meaningless -
many being taken with the probe in mid-air.

Indeed, we can substantiate this further. At the outset it's
recorded:

HALT: Up to seven tenths? Or seven units, let's call it, on the
point five scale. OK, why don't we do this: why don't we make a
sweep here, I've got my gloves on now - let's make a sweep out
around the whole area about ten foot out, make a perimeter run
around it, starting right back here at the corner, back at the
same first corner where we came in, let's go right back here.
I'm gonna have to depend on you counting the clicks. OK,
let's...

NEVILLES: I'll tell you as it gets louder.

[...]

HALT: Put it on the ground every once in a while.
[END]


As I've noted before, later we hear:

HALT: 2:44. We're at the far side of the second farmer's field
and made sighting again about 110 degrees. This looks like it's
clear off to the coast. It's right on the horizon. Moves about a
bit and flashes from time to time. Still steady or red in color.
Also after negative readings in the center of the field we're
picking up slight readings, four or five clicks now, on the
meter.
[END]


This is after they had lost sight of the 'strange light' first
seen and having headed towards it, Halt now realises it's on the
coast. He seems to have forgotten this in subsequent retellings
of the tale.

Nonetheless, the 'reading' of four or five clicks in this
farmer's field are only marginally lower than the 'landing
site'.

Incidentally, at some point I hope to publish John Burroughs'
explanation of how and why Penniston, Cabansag and himself -
following a similar, if not identical route - did in truth
pursue a 'strange light' before they realised it came from a
lighthouse.

Meantime, thank you for the interesting and informed comments.

I'll need more time to consider that question of what the normal
background radiation would be. It would be interesting to
determine this for the record and how we equate an apparently
higher reading of 0.05 mR/hr from the 'far side of the second
farmer's field', which had nothing to do with perceived 'UFOs'.

Aside of course from the one which was flashing and "clear off
to the coast".


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk








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   Oct > Oct 16

                     Bryant's New Jimmy Carter UFO Book

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@bellatlantic.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:44:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:50:34 -0400
Subject: Bryant's New Jimmy Carter UFO Book


PRESS RELEASE

UFO Politics At The White House: Citizens Rally 'Round Jimmy
Carter's Promise

By Larry W. Bryant


The world may never know exactly how many Presidential
candidates - and Presidents themselves - have encountered one
or more unidentified flying objects. But we certainly do know
that one of them - Jimmy Carter, when he was Governor of
Georgia - did see one, and formally reported the event to a
privately funded UFO research group in Washington, D.C.

The aftermath of that report amounts to a politico-semantic case
study, especially now with publication of 'UFO Politics At The
White House: Citizens Rally 'Round Jimmy Carter's Promise'.'

Produced by a pioneer in the thick-and-fury of the politics of
Ufology, the book brings together a few hundred letters sent to
the former President upon his taking office. These letters,
postcards, and telegrams center on Carter's election-campaign
promise to look into (and reveal) the official evidence for UFO
reality and to work toward ending agencies' coverup of the UFO
experience. Researcher Larry W. Bryant's selection of the
letters for this volume includes a sharp running commentary on
their import and aftermath.

This book should appeal to the seasoned UFO researcher and to
the Ufological-tyro alike. But its content - its cosmic
zeitgeist, if you will - goes deeper than the mere pursuit of
UFOtruth.

"On one level," says Bryant, "these letters signify the
conscience of the body politic, a conscience that rebukes and
resists propagandistic erosion from the keepers of the Ultimate
Secret. On another level, they signify a bloc of perennial aid
and comfort to all enemies of autocratic decision-making."

He sees this compilation of letters as serving two purposes: to
preserve and disseminate them as part of the historical record;
and to let their content help rekindle public outcry for further
accountability.

As regards the latter aspect, here's the author's comment
introducing Chapter 24 (Beaton's Baton):

"Back in the eighties, Rodney T. Beaton, then attending the
University of New Mexico, founded the first-ever (and only?)
student-campus group devoted to helping resolve the UFO problem.
He dubbed it 'Students Against UFO Secrecy.' It was a spin-off,
of course, from the public-interest group Citizens Against UFO
Secrecy. . ..

"Ufopolitically ahead of his time, Beaton took delight in
expressing a novel rationale for the UFO coverup. The feds, he
said, simply abhor (and fear) the prospect that 'we, the
sheeple' might be induced to swing our allegiance from the
United States of Advertising to some as-yet mysterious, powerful
off-world federation unfit (or un-USA-approved) for human eyes,
much less for human imagination. Hence, the alien beacon,
theorized Beaton, must be beaten back by the bureaucrats - for
our own welfare (and for that of generations to come.)"


              *                    *                    *

Larry W. Bryant retired in June 1994 from a federal-service
writing/editing career that paralleled his UFO research of some
44 years' standing. He currently directs the Washington, D.C.,
office of Citizens Against UFO Secrecy (www.caus.org) from his
home in Alexandria, Va. In recent years, his published articles,
essays, commentaries, and UFO-related litigation have earned him
prominence as a columnist for UFOcity.com ("LWB Chronicles").

With this work, Bryant remains at the forefront of a growing
grass-roots effort to mobilize public sentiment toward
final/formal/official UFO-E.T. disclosure - as projected by the
website:

http://www.paradigmclock.com

In this regard, he recently circulated an electronic petition
calling for issuance of a "Presidential Proclamation on UFO
Freedom of Information and Accountability".



Invisible College Press
3703 Del Mar Drive
Woodbridge, VA 22193


UFO Politics At The White House: Citizens Rally 'Round Jimmy
Carter's Promise

By Larry W. Bryant


http://www.invispress.com
ISBN: 1-931-468-07-9
Pub. Date: Some time in December 2001
Trade Paperback: $14.95
About 300 Pages


The publisher is accepting prepublication orders now via
snail-mail. (U.S.-mail orders sent direct to the above address
will incur no shipping charges, but Virginia residents must pay
the state sales tax. A $3 shipping fee applies to overseas
orders.)  Soon, you'll be able to order the book via Amazon,
Barnes & Noble, and your local bookstore.

For more info and an excerpt, see:

http://www.invispress.com/UFO/UFO.html
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _








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   Oct > Oct 16

                       Cellphones Spook British Ghosts

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 02:12:36 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:04:49 -0400
Subject: Cellphones Spook British Ghosts


Now, this is quite interesting: some people believe that there
is a relationship between ghosts and other paranormal phenomena
and UFOs. If this is so, I would expect a corresponding impact
on UFO sightings. Also, why would this only apply to the UK? Is
there any similar evidence from other countries? Any comments?

Joe

-----


Source: Yahoo! News

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/011014/80/c9izn.html

Sunday October 14, 01:19 AM

Cellphones Spook British Ghosts

LONDON (Reuters) - Mobile phones are killing off ghosts, an
expert who has spent years researching the occult has said.

Tony Cornell, of the Society for Psychical Research, told the
Sunday Express newspaper that reports of ghost sightings had
started to decline when mobile phones were introduced 15 years
ago.

"Ghost sightings have remained consistent for centuries. Until
three years ago we'd receive reports of two new ghosts every
week," said Cornell, of Cambridge in Eastern England.

"But with the introduction of mobile phones 15 years ago, ghost
sightings began to decline to the point where now we are
receiving none."

According to the paper, haunted tourist attractions in Britain
could be under threat if the number of cellphones continues to
grow from the present figure of 39 million

Apparently paranormal events, which some scientists put down to
unusual electrical activity, could be drowned out by the
electronic noise produced by phone calls and text messages.










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   Oct > Oct 16

                Re: Rajesh Kumar - www.etcontact/net? - Kelly

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:28:11 +1000
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:08:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Rajesh Kumar - www.etcontact/net? - Kelly


 >Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:21:38 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@LARRYHATCH.NET>
 >Subject: Rajesh Kumar - www.etcontact/net?
 >To: Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >Dear Listerines:

 >While searching for dead links to my old *U* Database website, I
 >chanced upon this one:

 >http://www.etcontact.net/GeneralSightings.htm

 >You may recognize the UFO maps, they are mine.

<snip>

 >Can _anybody_ tell me how to email this rather slippery fellow?

<snip>

Larry,

Looks like you may have sorted this out by now as I see he has
put you name up with the maps in question at the site in
question.

Just in case, I found this e-mail for me. rajesh@earthweb.org

Great Maps and Data by the way.


Tophar









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 16

               Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID -

From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 23:59:32 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:47:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID -


[I did not post Ms. Johnstone's attempt to join this thread on
  the UpDates List. Since Wendy probably received it via a 'Bcc:',
  I must assume that it has been widely circulated and therefore
  want to ensure that Wendy's response is seen by everyone. --ebk]


 >From: Lara <bravehrt@concentric.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 5:57 PM
 >Subject: Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID

 >>Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 21:55:47 +0100
 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID

 >>>From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Technology Leaders Ponder Fingerprint ID
 >>>Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 17:48:36 -0600

 >All,

 >I am just a little amazed.

 >An ID card system is going to be about as 'safe'
 >as locking yourselves up in a concentration camp,
 >with Dr. Mengele as your nanny!

 >All the 'terrorists' trained by your own intelligence
 >agencies would have been given their TOP SECRET
 >little ID cards and would be walking around
 >demanding that you show your ID card!!

 >Every single 'terrorist' from Lee Harvey Oswald,
 >to Osama, to McVeigh, to whomever you wish got
 >thier 'ID CARD' from the folks who train their
 >troops at Ft. Benning. That ID CARD requires you
 >to meditate for hours and hours on the wonderful
 >maxim "Blood makes the grass grow, Kill, Kill, Kill"

 >Makes Hitler sound like a pacifist!

 >Are you nuts?

 >Why not simply suggest that everyone get branded
 >with their own barcode on their forehead?

 >Would that make you feel safe? Get a grip!

 >Pardon my anger, but the 'enemy' is not Osama
 >Bin Laden, the 'enemy' is your hate and ignorance
 >in how you go about creating Osama Bin Ladens and
 >then feel self-righteous about being 'good' at
 >decimating him. Start with Lenin, whom was setup
 >by the US, and sprouted a version of communism which
 >was about as close to 'communism' as fascism is
 >to democracy. Then your pharmaceutical corporations
 >encouraged Hitler to setup concentration camps.
 >Interesting how your current DoD Herr Rumsfeld was
 >a CEO of a Pharmaceutical company! Wonder how many
 >of these 'ID CARDS' will land his buddies warm
 >bodies to experiment on in America's
 >concentration camps? Dachau in Detroit or
 >Denver? That is what you are suggesting!

 >Ponder a little history before you doom yourself
 >to repeat it and follow the Pied Piper to
 >drown in the river of Denial!

 >Lara

Lara?

Ah, the little girl that touted the hunger strike that wasn't.
The 2 hour wonder of Greerism at its finest. Thought I
recognized the name from the email address. I'll keep my reply
relatively short.

Princess, I'm an old broad. Been around a long time. Seen and
done much. I lived my ideologies in military uniform when your
only challenge of ideology was sitting on your blankie and
enjoying sucking your thumb. Your response is typical of rabid
little political correctness dweebs that hang around the
Universities. How do I know this to be factual and can document
it? Easy as boiling water:

Anyone with intelligence and common sense can recognize that I
backed up my ideology regarding the issue with rational thought,
example and finese. Your response is crude, lacks rationality,
as well as originality, and is a textbook example of an hysteric
that believes the louder you shout the more you should be right.
Grown-ups don't do that. Besides, sweetie. I've lived history,
participated in it and contributed to it.

Now, what do you know about history? Not much and I'll tell you
why. You spent a couple of hours getting horn-swaggled by Greer
and became a believer without thought or intellectual exercise;
tried to play Ghandi, which you shouldn't have done because
you're not Ghandi and you're not good at it. Not to mention that
your imitation defamed a great man of ideology and courage and
when you meet him in eternity, you owe him an apology.

You're not worth my time, the List members time or Mr.
Bruce-Knapp's time, in my opinion. You're a waste of space and
life. My suggestion? Well, I don't think a lady commits such in
speech or writing, but certainly thinks it. And I certainly did.
But, you may know that men and women of honor will spill their
blood to keep you free to shreik and wallow in your own
selfishness, stupidity and ignorance. However, don't believe for
one heartbeat that you are worth them doing so. Nope. They'll
sacrifice for something greater than themselves. You just
haven't a clue.


Wendy Connors












   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 16

              Re: Position Statement on Alien Abduction - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 02:58:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:55:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Position Statement on Alien Abduction - Velez


 >From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Position Statement on Alien Abduction
 >Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:19:46 -0600

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:12:49 -0400
 >>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Position Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez

 >>>From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Position Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 06:22:47 -0600

 >>>Hi Wendy, hi All,

 >>>Right out of the gate I find that the alien abduction scenario,
 >>>from its beginning, scares the hell out of me. Enough so, I have
 >>>never written about it or wanted to do deep research into it.
 >>>This is not easy for a crypto-aeronautical researcher and
 >>>historian to admit openly.

 >>The honest admission you have made is what IMHO separates the
 >>'wheat from the chaff' in terms of intellectual honesty.
 >>Something which is sorely lacking in many of those associated
 >>with "ufology." Your openness and honesty is refreshing and
 >>appreciated. Wish we could all see more of it among those who
 >>investigate the UFO phenom.

 >Well, John, I ain't as smart as I wish I was, but then again,
 >I'm human, so that accounts for the times I stumble over my
 >tongue and butcher my own reasoning. Guess trying is what really
 >counts in the whole scheme of things, but I appreciate the
 >compliment. <G>

Hi Wendy,

Sorry for delay in response. I don't know how I missed this one,
but I did. Anyway, here I am now. Better late than never eh?  :)

You wrote:

 >>>That said, I read the literature and the posts from those who
 >>>have admitted to such experiences. Even though I do so with a
 >>>critical eye and intellect, I cannot dismiss it as some type of
 >>>wacko movement within the field. Yet, I have seen no evidence
 >>>that it ties directly with crypto-aeronautics in the
 >>>conventional sense.

I responded:

 >>That is one of the things I have been talking about since day
 >>one. Although I hesitate to use the analogy because it opens up
 >>its own 'can of worms' it is only the "Betty and Barney Hill"
 >>type encounters involving a "UFO" _and_ its "occupants," (which
 >>also includes the Travis Walton case, the Charlie Hickson
 >>Pascagoula, Miss. case, the Allagash four case, etc etc etc)
 >>should even be considered by "UFO" researchers. That is an
 >>opinion that has caused many "abductees" to call me a
 >>"traitor"and a "skeptic" (of all things) in the past.

You replied:

 >I know what you mean, John, about "opening a can of worms." I
 >should have kept my mouth shut...60 emails and counting since I
 >posted. I gotta feeling I'll be up all night again. <G>

The flood of e-mail that some of these threads generate can be
impressive eh what? Many folks will write in support, some will
offer useful and valid critiques, and then there are always a
few nasty tirades from some people who will use you to vent
anger they picked up somewhere else in life.  :)  Usually an
interesting mix nonetheless.

 >>A big part of the problem has been that "UFO" abduction has not
 >>been clearly defined by anyone who does research. Ergo, it has
 >>become defined (what an "abduction" is,) by the experiencers
 >>themselves.

 ><snip>

 >Wish I could help you here, John, but I've perambulated around
 >the field for a heck of a long time and I still beat my head
 >against the wall trying to clearly define what "Ufology" is
 >supposed to be. That's why I keep saying that the UFO phenomena
 >is reality based and we really don't know diddly squat what it
 >really is and what it means yet.

Tell that to the ones that talk like they have all the answers.
I'm with you. We _know_ we have a genuine phenomenon, but the
true nature/origin of that phenom remains cloaked in deep
mystery. Those who say otherwise only muddy-up already murky
waters.

 >No wonder people go wacky in this field at times. In a nutshell,
 >we know more about what crypto-aeronautics isn't, than what it
 >really is and that's a start, anyway. So, I can understand your
 >frustration with your work in the alien abduction scene.

Lady, you have _no_idea_. I get banged on both ends! From the
hard core skeptics on one side, to the hard core New Agers on
the other end of the spectrum. I just continue to collect as
much data as I can and post it or pass it along to others as
opportunities allow. That's how I got into all this to begin
with.

When my work/relationship with Budd started to get serious. He
began to informally "teach me" by sharing more and more of his
research information with me. Most of which had ever been
published or exposed to public scrutiny. It took me awhile, but
I managed to convince him how important it was to share that
information with others. To allow me to post as much of that
information as I could on the Internet so that other researchers
could access it easily and use it/apply it in their own studies
of the phenomenon. The result of that effort was the original
Intruders Foundation website.

After our association ended I carried on with the work of
presenting to the public the best and most reliable/credible
information on the topic of abduction that is available with my
own Abduction Information Center website. It has been years of
dedicated hard work but I am proud of my small (but I think
important/valuable) contribution to the overall work being
done by the more serious research people. As part of my
multi-pronged activist attack on the ignorance connected to this
subject, I have always kept myself available to all interested
researchers via this List. Thanks to Errol I get to 'sing in the
choir' twice a month on his 'Strange Days... Indeed' program. I
am doing all that I can to (responsibly) help to educate and
raise awareness about this troubling, unsettling phenomenon.

As for UpDates:

I 'work' here. I'm not here to 'socialize' or to get people to
"like" me. It's the reason why I go after the fakers and
charlatans with my fangs and claws out. They are the ones who
muddy everything up and 'take away' by feeding public
incredulity via their shenanigans. They take away hard earned
credibility from the more serious work being done by others. It
is righteous indignation that I feel towards them. I try hard
(amateur that I am) to maintain as high a personal standard as I
can in all of my own efforts. I expect the same from anyone else
who chooses to get involved.

 >>I don't think that is the abductees fault as much as it is a
 >>problem caused by those who report on the phenomenon as
 >>'proponents' of it, rather than as objective investigators.
 >>I would blame them, (if 'blame' is a proper term) before I'd
 >>blame the experiencers.

 >>I'm not blaming the Experiencers, John. At least in the way you
 >>are perceiving it. What I am saying is that some Experiencers
 >>make demands on researchers that cannot be met and then
 >>fulminate to the point of making researchers want to ignore
 >>them or the abduction scenario in total.

There's always a "Joker" or two in every deck Wendy. Once the
'culprits' are identified they can either be put to good use or
simply ignored. The 'problem' as you say is; that they make it
harder on those who are trying, or actively working to advance
real research.

 >Kinda like being a parent and having the rug rompers in the back
 >seat constantly saying, "Are we there yet? Huh? Are we there
 >yet? Why aren't we there yet?" Well, you get the point, I'm
 >sure. The Experiencer is undoubtedly desperate for answers (who
 >wouldn't be in the same circumstances), but some cannot accept,
 >or will accept, that researchers really don't know any more than
 >what they, themselves know. In other words, Experiencers
 >sometimes want the researcher to handle the situation and guide
 >them, but that cannot really be done. Assisted, yes, but not
 >given definitive answers or make the experience more palatable.

Many have paid the price by finding themselves inextricably
involved with unscrupulous characters/researchers. ('alleged'
researchers.)

 >>>For those who approach the alien abduction scenarios from a
 >>>practical standpoint, there is little doubt that two shifts have
 >>>developed within the field of ufological studies. First is the
 >>>possibility of alien contact, but without documented proof and
 >>>secondly, that a few >people seem to have been contacted against
 >>>their will by what can only be considered an alien phenomena.
 >>>Beyond these assumptions all else is total speculation.

 >>I agree with the latter but not with the former. There
 >>_is_'documentation' in the form of physical marks, scars, and
 >>foreign objects, as well as ground trace evidence, multiple
 >>witnesses etc., that are associated with these
 >>encounters/reports.

 >Well, John, I think you are half correct on this point. But,
 >collateral documentation is just that and does not prove
 >conclusively alien abduction. I'll give you an example.
 >Reference the Cash/Landrum incident. Radiation type burns,
 >helicopters, diamond-like craft, etc. Obviously an unknown
 >aeronautical craft is observed, witnesses injured, etc. But no
 >definitive proof of an extraterrestrial craft. Same with
 >Experiencer's trace elements. Those alone do not conclusively
 >point to alien abduction, torture, etc.

I agree that the 'source' and 'purpose' of the abductions
remains an unknown. That 'something' is happening to great many
perfectly credible and ordinary family folk is beyond question.
After almost 30 years the most basic of research has yet to be
performed. And no help (save that provided by trained/skilled
'volunteers' like myself and others) for the forgotten thousands
of victims of this strange phenomenon. (I have over ten years of
experience working with individuals and families who are
involved in crisis situations. It has really come in handy in my
work with "abductees".)

 >>I agree. Although I would hesitate to venture a guess as to the
 >>percentage. I think that using a term like "vast majority" is a
 >>bit extreme. It probably reflects a personal bias in thinking
 >>more than it does representation of 'hard' or 'proven fact'.
 >>Truth is, until somebody begins to investigate, and through
 >>the process of elimination actually determines how many such
 >>cases are bogus, we just won't know how many are real or not.

 >Well, I think you kinda split hairs here, John. Common sense
 >tells me that if 3 or 4 million Americans (let's forget the
 >millions world-wide for the sake of argument) of all economic,
 >political, social, etc., status have been abducted by aliens,
 >then a portion of those would be in positions of power
 >(economically and politically) to do something about getting it
 >researched. Smaller groups of people have destroyed governments,
 >etc. I'm pretty convinced such a phenomena is taking place, but
 >I believe that "alien abduction" is on a very small scale and
 >even at that, it presents very serious problems.

I completely agree. Which is why I suggest setting the bar as
high as possible in terms of 'defining' as narrowly as possible
precisely what comprises a "UFO abduction" case. If everyone who
has had a "dream" is given a hearing we'll all be old and grey
before we've heard them all out. There needs to be a much
tighter definition of what a "UFO abduction" is. Both for the
sake of clarity and expedience.

 >>We can't say "there is no evidence" because no one has taken
 >>the time to determine whether what is already in hand actually
 >>comprises valid or 'acceptable evidence'. Even the most basic
 >>of research has yet to be performed. Yet everyone always feels
 >>free to expound on the abduction phenomenon as if they
 >>actually knew what the hell they were talking about.

 >John, from your experience and perspective, whom (persons,
 >organizations) do you suggest has the expertise via, political,
 >scientific, medical, economic, social/psychological, etc. to
 >address the problem and exactly what do you want done about a
 >problem that seems beyond human comprehension? Further, exactly
 >how do you feel this should be accomplished and by what
 >methodology?

We need a multi-disciplinary approach to this problem. It is why
I say we need to clearly define the phenomenon. A large enough
group of "experiencers/abductees" could be subjected to
physical, psychological, and any other testing deemed necessary
in order to acquire the basic data required to
definitively/reliably answer basic questions like; are a
majority of "abductees" suffering from a 'new' and as yet
undiagnosed psychological or physiological disorder? There may
be real 'evidence' in the bodies of the abductees for all we
know. Until that kind of _basic_ research is performed, we'll
just never know for sure.

Multi-disciplinary approach says I. It's the only way to fly
with something this complex and that involves so many
individuals.

 >Ummm, I didn't "blame [ Experiencer's] for not being willing to
 >cooperate." I put forth the concept that by "demanding"
 >something be researched that is probably beyond human ability at
 >this time, is muddying the waters. I asked above what should be
 >done, how should it be done and what expectations are possible?
 >In other words, what methodology does a researcher follow when
 >facing such an enigma? Moral support and an ear to listen is
 >what is available, currently. If crowd chanting takes over, how
 >can that help? Thus, muddying the waters. Thus, the middle of
 >the road scenario to understanding and developing a methodology
 >to research.

I made a couple of viable suggestions above Wendy. How about
selecting a group of abductees for complete psychological
work-ups. In order to confirm or eliminate psychopathology as a
reason for what is being reported by so many. Complete double
blind physical examinations of both abductees and a group of
randomly selected volunteers is another. You might be able to
answer questions like: Is there any difference in the blood or
the DNA of an "abductee" as opposed to a randomly selected
member of the general population who is not having abduction
experiences? Are there _any_ foreign objects (implants) in the
bodies of those claiming abduction? Are there _any_
physical/organic anomalies among those reporting abduction? The
List goes on and on. A great many basic and important questions
can be addressed and answered that way. Problem is; it's never
going to happen. Not in the present or near future anyway.
Shame.

 >I think you've made good strides in your quest, John, but taking
 >the position that insinuates that it's researchers fault for not
 >doing something about the abduction scenario is pretty lame.
 >Therefore, that is certainly not a middle of the road approach.

Why is it "lame" to fault someone who "claims" to be doing
abduction research if they are not actually "doing" abduction
research? When an auto-mechanic charges you for working on your
car when in fact he never even cracked the hood, you 'pitch a
bitch'" right? Well, that's what I'm doing.  :)


Warmest regards,

John Velez

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 16

                           Rajesh Kumar Is Found!

From: Larry Hatch <larry@LARRYHATCH.NET>
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:32:45 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:52:59 -0400
Subject: Rajesh Kumar Is Found!


Dear Listeroos:


Please cancel any search for the mysterious Rajesh Kumar of:

http://www.etcontact.net

which showed my maps with dead links back.

It turns out he was having all sorts of troubles due to the
Nimda virus, site up and down, and even his email was
effected... thus the bounced messages from me.

Rajesh has fixed up the dead links and then some.

Now, how did he know about my concerns? He looked into the
Archives for the UFO UpDates List at UFOMIND and found me
ranting about him!

All is well. One less dead link (or three)


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

PS: Thanks to the folks who offered their assistance finding
Rajesh. When computers die, its their owners and users who
vanish.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 16

                      Re: Baloney Detection - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 16 Oct 2001 05:30:29 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:13:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Baloney Detection - Hamilton


 >Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 10:13:09 -0400
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Baloney Detection
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:29:14 -0400
 >>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Baloney Detection

 >>Source: Scientific American

 >>http://www.sciam.com/2001/1101issue/1101skeptic.html

 >>Baloney Detection

 >>How to draw boundaries between science and pseudoscience, Part I

 >>By Michael Shermer

 >...........

 >>When lecturing on science and pseudoscience at colleges and
 >>universities, I am inevitably asked, after challenging common
 >>beliefs held by many students, "Why should we believe you?" My
 >>answer: "You shouldn't."

 >>I then explain that we need to check things out for ourselves
 >>and, short of that, at least to ask basic questions that get to
 >>the heart of the validity of any claim. This is what I call
 >>baloney detection, in deference to Carl Sagan, who coined the
 >>phrase "Baloney Detection Kit." To detect baloney--that is, to
 >>help discriminate between science and pseudoscience--I suggest
 >>10 questions to ask when encountering any claim.>

 >>1. How reliable is the source of the claim? Pseudoscientists
 >>often appear quite reliable, but when examined closely, the
 >>facts and figures they cite are distorted, taken out of context
 >>or occasionally even fabricated. Of course, everyone makes some
 >>mistakes. And as historian of science Daniel Kevles showed so
 >>effectively in his book The Baltimore Affair, it can be hard to
 >>detect a fraudulent signal within the background noise of
 >>sloppiness that is a normal part of the scientific process. The
 >>question is, Do the data and interpretations show signs of
 >>intentional distortion? When an independent committee
 >>established to investigate potential fraud scrutinized a set of
 >>research notes in Nobel laureate David Baltimore's laboratory,
 >>it revealed a surprising number of mistakes. Baltimore was
 >>exonerated because his lab's mistakes were random and
 >>nondirectional.

 >Comment: "How reliable is the source of the claim?" For UFOs
 >this reads as follows:

 >"How reliable is the UFO skeptic who proposes an explanation for
 >a particular UFO sighting? "

 >_Note_well_ that to propose an explanation is to _make_a_claim_:
 >such and such a UFO sighting is really a... (explanation or
 >suggested phenomenon.)

 >What really happens is that the skeptic proposes, often
 >publicly, "Candidate Explanatory Phenomenon" (CEP) to explain
 >the sighting.

 >One presumes that to determine the reliability of the skeptic
 >who proposes an explanation one should look at previous
 >explanations suggested by said skeptic and determine what
 >fraction of thse explanations was correct or at least convincing
 >(it may noe be possible to determine whether or not an
 >explanatio is correct, but it should be possible to determine
 >whether or not an explanation is convincing to at least some
 >level of acceptance or (gulp) "belief.")
 >
 >Example: How reliable is PJKlass who proposed Mars and Jupiter
 >to explain the Japan Airlines sighting (JAL1628) of Nov. 1986?
 >The explanation was hardly convincing... comparing the known
 >characteristics of Mars and Jupiter with the descriptions by the
 >air crew shows great disparity.
 >
 >So, should we trust Klass to propose a correct explanation for
 >another sighting... such as Kenneth Arnold (for which PJK
 >proposed a meteor train)
 >
 >I would suggest that Mr. Shirmer's point #1 be applied to UFO
 >skeptics as well as t believers.
 >
 >
 >>2. Does this source often make similar claims? Pseudoscientists
 >>have a habit of going well beyond the facts. Flood geologists
 >>(creationists who believe that Noah's flood can account for many
 >>of the earth's geologic formations) consistently make outrageous
 >>claims that bear no relation to geological science. Of course,
 >>some great thinkers do frequently go beyond the data in their
 >>creative speculations. Thomas Gold of Cornell University is
 >>notorious for his radical ideas, but he has been right often
 >>enough that other scientists listen to what he has to say. Gold
 >>proposes, for example, that oil is not a fossil fuel at all but
 >>the by-product of a deep, hot biosphere (microorganisms living
 >>at unexpected depths within the crust). Hardly any earth
 >>scientists with whom I have spoken think Gold is right, yet they
 >>do not consider him a crank. Watch out for a pattern of fringe
 >t>hinking that consistently ignores or distorts data.>
 >
 >2. Does a particular UFO skeptic propose explanations for many
 >sightings? Do these explanations go "far beyond the facts" or
 >ignore the facts in favor of particular explanations? Are te
 >explanations convincing or are they merely "biolerplate"? (Any
 >explanation is better than none... Any explanation in a storm..)
 >
 >>3. Have the claims been verified by another source? Typically
 >>pseudoscientists make statements that are unverified or verified
 >>only by a source within their own belief circle. We must ask,
 >>Who is checking the claims, and even who is checking the
 >>checkers? The biggest problem with the cold fusion debacle, for
 >>instance, was not that Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischman were
 >>wrong. It was that they announced their spectacular discovery at
 >>a press conference before other laboratories verified it. Worse,
 >>when cold fusion was not replicated, they continued to cling to
 >t>heir claim. Outside verification is crucial to good science.>

Just wanted to add something to your excellent comments Bruce.
Embedded in the above statetment are some misleading if not
false statements.

They mean: Verified by a skeptic. He makes a false statement
here to lure skeptics into their own belief system: "Worse, when
cold fusion was not replicated, they continued to cling to their
claim. Outside verification is crucial to good science". The
statement itself is false and misleading. Cold Fusion has been
replicated in so many independent labs with so many variations
that it would be difficult to list them all. It is not
replication that is the problem, but consistent replication
under various conditions and a plausible theory to explain the
positive results.

Research facilities reporting important cold fusion results
include:

Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI)/Stanford Research
                Institute (SRI)
Los Alamos National Laboratory
Oak Ridge National Laboratory
Naval Weapons Center at China Lake
Naval Research Laboratory
Naval Ocean Systems Center
Texas A&M University
California State Polytechnic University
ENECO, Salt Lake City
Hokkaido National University
ENEA (Italy)
National Institute for Nuclear Physics (Italy)
Osaka National University
National Institute for Fusion Science, Nagoya
Tokyo Institute of Technology
Bhabha Atomic Research Centre, Bombay, India
IMRA Corporation (Toyota subsidiary)
NTT (Nippon Telephone and Telegraph company)
E-Quest Sciences (California)
Shell Recherche SA (France)
Tsinghua University (China)
University of Illinois at Urbana
Many other private research laboratories, most in Japan

Would you trust a skeptic who makes specious statements?

 >Has a proposed explanation been verified by any other source or
 >skeptic? This is really a "telling" point made by Shirmer.
 >Rarely if ever does skeptic #2 comment on an explanation by
 >skeptic #1, although... there _is_ often a "de facto" review and
 >rejection by virtue of the fact that skeptic #2 might propose a
 >_different_ explanation.

 >From the scientific point of view it would make sense to propose
 >a second (or third, wt.) explanation only if the proposer can
 >demonstrate that the first (or second) explanation is wrong.

 >In the JAL1628 case PJK evidently provided his own review of his
 >first (Mars, Jupiter) explanation and then proposed moonlight
 >reflected from clouds. But I don't recall any _other_ skeptic
 >commenting on PJK's explanation(s).

 >In fact, comment by skeptic #2 on the explanation [proposed by
 >skeptic #1 is a RARE event!

 >So I suppose Shirmer's criterion here would indicate that
 >explanations proposed by skeptics are quite often
 >pseudoscientific because they aren't independently researched
 >and then supported by other skeptics.

 >>4. How does the claim fit with what we know about how the world
 >>works? An extraordinary claim must be placed into a larger
 >>context to see how it fits. When people claim that the Egyptian
 >>pyramids and the Sphinx were built more than 10,000 years ago by
 >>an unknown, advanced race, they are not presenting any context
 >>for that earlier civilization. Where are the rest of the
 >>artifacts of those people? Where are their works of art, their
 >>weapons, their clothing, their tools, their trash? Archaeology
 >>simply does not operate this way.

 >This is a "double edged sword" situation: UFO reality,
 >presumably, is an extraordinary claim. But very often the
 >proposed explanation is _also_ an extraordinary claim, when taken
 >ni the context of the evidence/report.

Also, How many times has the way the world works been challenged
and overthrown? Too many to list. The acceptance of Einstein's
theories (right or wrong) challenged the way the world works and
led to a paradigm shift. Just because something anomalous does
not fit into the way we feel we know the world works, does not
mean that it is false.

 >>5. Has anyone gone out of the way to disprove the claim, or has
 >>only supportive evidence been sought? This is the confirmation
 >>bias, or the tendency to seek confirmatory evidence and to
 >>reject or ignore disconfirmatory evidence. The confirmation bias
 >>is powerful, pervasive and almost impossible for any of us to
 >>avoid. It is why the methods of science that emphasize checking
 >>and rechecking, verification and replication, and especially
 >>attempts to falsify a claim, are so critical.

 >This is a good one! Has anyone (skeptic, that is) attempted to
 >discpove an explanation? The answer is almost universally no.
 >Very raraly will the explanation proposed by a skeptic be
 >scientifically studied by another skeptic or scientist with an
 >_intent_ to try to disprove the explanation. Instead, what
 >generally happens is that information contained within a UFO
 >report is ignored as necessary to make an explanation fit. Now,
 >I should say that "ignoring information" is a part of the
 >standard scientific process. But in order to 'get away' with
 >ignoring information the scientist has to prove it is ignorable.
 >For example, the scientist may claim that certain information
 >is part of the "noise level" and can be ignored. But arguments
 >to ignore UFO related information - report information - are
 >generally not clearly made.)

As we know right here on this List, there are many viewpoints
and interpretations of any particular UFO case, but those who
post their views while ignoring information are usually called
on it and that is part of the dialog. Thus, viewpoints may
change, but skeptics will have decided that the information
presented by witnesses cannot possibly be authentic, that it
does not fit in with the accepted world view, that it lacks
sufficient evidence to convince a logical mind, and that such
witnessed events can only be some part of the witnesses' mental
processes, whether fabrication or imagination with huge
allowances for misperception of prosaic phenomena.


-Bill Hamilton









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   Oct > Oct 16

                  Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:42:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:44:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Clark


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:09:47 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:47:58 -0500

 >>>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:14:55 +0200

 >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>>Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:40:19 -0500

 >>>>>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>>>Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 13:01:11 +0200

 >>>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>>>>Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:13:34 -0500


Kevin,

 >If I might intrude for just a moment -

 >>I don't know about Mars Needs Women, but I do know of a case I
 >>investigated, years prior to the appearance of that movie, in
 >>which very similar entities to those Schirmer reported were
 >>described. This is another reason I am not a "skeptic." Come to
 >>think of it, Schirmer's story was published more than two
 >>decades before MNW. Or are you arguing that Schirmer had
 >>precognitive powers? Or that the aliens in a particular SF film
 >>were patterned after those Schirmer described?

 >If I read this right, Jerry, you are suggesting that Mars Needs
 >Women appeared about two decades after Schirmer made his
 >hypnotically induced statement. The copyright and the original
 >release on the movie is 1966. I know because I looked it up in
 >Phil Hardy's The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction Movies.

Gulp. I stand corrected and plead ignorance and stupidity. I had
Mars Needs Women confused with Earth Girls Are Easy.

 >I would be interested in the timing of the other abduction which
 >describes the aliens in the way that Schirmer does. As I say,
 >I'm a bit confused by your paragraph.

Is there evidence - _any_ evidence - that Schirmer knew of Mars
Needs Women? I am willing to wager that my abductee, who
reported encountering entities that remind any informed observer
Schirmer's, had never heard of either the abductee nor the
movie. The abductee I worked with was an intensely devout woman
who did not go to movies, was far removed from any popular
culture besides country and gospel music, and knew nothing about
UFOs. (I know that last is hard to believe, but my investigation
confirmed that to my satisfaction.)

Anyway, Kevin, thanks for unconfusing me.


Jerry Clark









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   Oct > Oct 16

                        Re: AA... By The By - Tophar

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 00:41:09 +1000
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:47:43 -0400
Subject: Re: AA... By The By - Tophar


 >Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 11:43:50 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: AA... By The By
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: AA... By The By
 >>Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:26:42 +1000


 >(These "boxes" have been identified as the "control panels"
 >featured in the "debris footage." Maybe they doubled as "laptop
 >computers" when the crew wasn't in flight.)*


I have been lead to believe the boxes were/are soul catches,
these devices hold an aliens soul until such time it can be
"born again" into a new body. I personally am not to sure about
this theory, but it does make sense that someone from another
world wouldn't want to be felt behind on an hostile planet.
Could also be there the ancient Egyptians got there theories for
after life from. Someone or something sure had them believing
ones soul can be reborn under the right conditions.


 >*This is written from the purely speculative assumption that the
 >AA might be real

Maybe someone who really did view the original AA re-created the
one we have seen? I think this because, I like most here really
cannot believe the Military would let something like that just
walk out the door.

Also.....

I have found that most inventions and ideas are brought into
this world from other ideas and/or by observing nature, real
life events, ECT. For this reason I feel the Alien is just to
close to the mark for someone to have just thought it up off the
bat, in my humble opinion.

Being a 3D'er and a amateur Scifi writer, I am always trying to
think of something new and exciting to write or design. These
ideas don't come easy and more often than not something you see
or hear will be the seed that gets you started. I don't know of
any one, past or present who has had a truly original idea or
design, without any outside help what so ever. It's damn hard to
come up with a truly original idea or design.

For this reason and this reason alone, I see the AA flim to be a
real puzzle. Real or not, I do believe some-one, some-were, saw
something and that person or persons wanted others to know about
it..... Perhaps?? If I am not correct about this, then whom ever
it was involved in the concept and making of the AA flim has my
utter-most respect for originality.


Tophar











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   Oct > Oct 16

                  Re: Probing Abduction Classics - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:16:40 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:48:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Probing Abduction Classics - Gonzalez


 >From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Probing Abduction Classics
 >Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 11:24:17 -0600

 >Thus, the Allagash abduction incident is basically the same.
 >Each person experienced the abduction from their own
 >perspective, yet the baseline remains constant. There is
 >absolutely no diagreement among the experiencers that the event
 >itself happened. To look at the incident by looking at it from a
 >group perspective leads to static and nothing is really learned.
 >Rational methodology is to confirm the baseline and then look at
 >the personal scenarios as independent units that support the
 >baseline.

Sorry, I disagree, Wendy.

The witnesses only agree to have seem something strange (a UFO)
and an alleged "missing time" based in the recollection of a
camp fire very quickly extinguised.  Then, some of them suffered
others incidents, contacted Fowler and under hipnosis (some of
them more relunctantly than others) an abduction surfaces. Even
if we accept that they did not discussed the regressions between
them, Mr. Fowler was present in all the sessions and could
involuntarily guide their recollections.

What I am saying is that, nowadays (and even at the beginning,
remember Alvin Lawson's research), what you called the
"baseline" can be generated from unconscious imaginery, and the
only way we have to validate them is comparing the individual
scenarios. In the Allagash case, they did _not_ fit. The number
of digits is a very simple variable that _should_ fit, but the
differences are much more important.

If you cannot rely in the personal recollections of each witness
about what happened to him, you cannot rely in anything. But in
the Allagash case, the procedures described by each of the
witnesses to have happen on himself did _not_ coincide with what
the others saw happening to him. How can that be, if there is
the most minimun level of objetive reality to their
recollections?


Yours,

Luis R. Gonzlez









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                 Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:18:54 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:50:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzalez


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:47:58 -0500

 >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:14:55 +0200


Jerry,

Thanks, I have always consider myself a sceptic. Now I know that
I am a debunker. OK.

Some misundestandings arose from the fact that althought you are
quite famous in our circles (to me, as the co-author of The
Unidentified, who later change his ideas... so, you see, even a
sceptic can change his ideas), you know nothing about me.

I'm a Spanish economist (M.B.A.) and businessman who has been
interested in the UFO phenomena since the 70s. I elaborated the
very first humanoid catalogue in Spain and I had published quite
a few articles in Spanish UFO and skeptical bulletins and also
in Magonia. I love reading English so I really consider myself
quite update in the UFO situation in the USA and have read most
of the titles written about abductions. Besides I'm also a SF
buff and I would be delighted to meet a real alien being, even
if I were to be exploited. On the other hand I have never
personally investigated an abduction (there are in a very short
supply here in Spain).

 >>The problem is that there are no two cases alike.

 >What a strange notion, and flatly false. .

Even Dr. Hynek spoke about the "embarrasment of richness". To
you, the notion is strange and false, flatly false. Easy, just
point me to another case like Vilas Boas (the same kind of UFO,
the same kind of diving suits, etc.). Not coincidence in 1 or 2
points, but similar descriptions down  to details as the two
prongs in the UFO, etc.

To me UFO reports are alike, but not enough alike. Many years
ago, after reading Toffler's "Third Wave" I did comment that UFO
could be custom-tailored but even though, such a diversity is
too much.

We can discuss all those impressive numbers of credible
witnesses and multiply and/or independently witnessed CE3s when
you like, but let's us center in UFO abductions. Yes, I have
already read your article in The Anomalist. Here, we are dealing
with claimed experiences not about brief encounters with a
distant UFO, not about close encounters (with a mean duration
around 7 minutes) but with the intimate encounter with aliens
beings for more than 1 hour, and several times! There_should_ be
much more similarities

Before you appeal to him, I have carefully read Eddie Bullard
impressive work and found it seriously flawed. This is not the
place to detail my objections but I will point to an example.
Half of the cases he refers to in Brazil and Argentina are not
abductions but teleportations (see my article about them in the
next The Anomalist) or contactee tales. Besides, some of the
abductions included, such as Llanca's, have been seriously
debunked. He is the one mixing oranges and apples. You can do it
knowingly (mix UFOs = oranges and hoaxes= apples), but after
finding any patterns you must verify if they apply not only to
oranges but also to apples. If both sub-samples are alike maybe
they are all apples (no the other way around, because we know
for sure that hoaxes exists, but we are not sure about UFOs)

 >I don't know about Mars Needs Women, but I do know of a case I
 >investigated, years prior to the appearance of that movie, in
 >which very similar entities to those Schirmer reported were
 >described. This is another reason I am not a "skeptic." Come to
 >think of it, Schirmer's story was published more than two
 >decades before MNW.

Sorry, something wrong here. Schirmer case took place in December
1967. According to my data, MNW was filmed in 1966, not two
decades later.....

Have you published the case you investigated?

 >To the second question you raise: of course not. One doesn't
 >have to engage in sweeping speculation to dismiss the LeRoy
 >story, which I personally and conclusively debunked in 1976 (my
 >article on the subject appearing in the February 1977 issue of
 >Fate), as you may not know.
 >
 >To the third, Adamski was a hoaxer and, unless you have clear
 >and specific evidence showing Katharian Wilson (a manifestly
 >honest woman in my observation, whatever the true nature of her
 >experience) to be the same, you're simply playing a rhetorical
 >game. Unless you believe apples are in fact oranges, their two
 >names should not be appearing in the same sentence.

I did know that you personally debunked the LeRoy story, and I
also share your opinions on Adamski and Katharina Wilson... that
precisely was the reason why their names appeared in the same
sentence. Mrs. Wilson' story is even more outlandish tham
Adamski's. Why must I believe her without enough evidence? Just
because she  _is_ honest?

Many honest people had believed in wrong things. Surely, even I
believe in wrong things. To me, the paranormal is like a slide,
when you begin to accept things without enough evidence, you
cannot stop: first, isolated incidents, then a lifetime of
abductions, after not one but several kinds of aliens, then
MILABs or wanderers or walks-in. And the fact that some hoaxers
or deluded persons have been able to tell stories very similar
to those told by honest people, should made us cautious.


LuisR










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   Oct > Oct 16

              Re: Cellphones Spook British Ghosts - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:34:52 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:52:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Cellphones Spook British Ghosts - Mortellaro


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Cellphones Spook British Ghosts
 >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 02:12:36 +0100


 >Now, this is quite interesting: some people believe that there
 >is a relationship between ghosts and other paranormal phenomena
 >and UFOs. If this is so, I would expect a corresponding impact
 >on UFO sightings. Also, why would this only apply to the UK? Is
 >there any similar evidence from other countries? Any comments?

 >Joe

 >-----


 >Source: Yahoo! News

 >http://uk.news.yahoo.com/011014/80/c9izn.html

 >Sunday October 14, 01:19 AM

 >Cellphones Spook British Ghosts

 >LONDON (Reuters) - Mobile phones are killing off ghosts, an
 >expert who has spent years researching the occult has said.

 >Tony Cornell, of the Society for Psychical Research, told the
 >Sunday Express newspaper that reports of ghost sightings had
 >started to decline when mobile phones were introduced 15 years
 >ago.

 >"Ghost sightings have remained consistent for centuries. Until
 >three years ago we'd receive reports of two new ghosts every
 >week," said Cornell, of Cambridge in Eastern England.

 >"But with the introduction of mobile phones 15 years ago, ghost
 >sightings began to decline to the point where now we are
 >receiving none."

 >According to the paper, haunted tourist attractions in Britain
 >could be under threat if the number of cellphones continues to
 >grow from the present figure of 39 million

 >Apparently paranormal events, which some scientists put down to
 >unusual electrical activity, could be drowned out by the
 >electronic noise produced by phone calls and text messages.


Dear Joe, List, Errol,

It is interesting if the causal relationship which explains the
anti-phenom is correct. But might there be some other reason for
this decline in Casper and his friends in jolly old England? An
increase in RF all over the place in general? A bit of
undigested beef? Some underdone potato(e)? Or perhaps, too much
old wine from across the pond! These dudes should really try
Gripple.


Best,

Jim









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   Oct > Oct 16

                Re: Rajesh Kumar - www.etcontact/net? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 07:12:37 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:54:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Rajesh Kumar - www.etcontact/net? - Hatch


 >From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Rajesh Kumar - www.etcontact/net?
 >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:28:11 +1000

 >>Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:21:38 -0700
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@LARRYHATCH.NET>
 >>Subject: Rajesh Kumar - www.etcontact/net?
 >>To: Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>Dear Listerines:

 >>While searching for dead links to my old *U* Database website, I
 >>chanced upon this one:

 >>http://www.etcontact.net/GeneralSightings.htm

 >>You may recognize the UFO maps, they are mine.

 ><snip>

 >>Can _anybody_ tell me how to email this rather slippery fellow?

 ><snip>

 >Larry,

 >Looks like you may have sorted this out by now as I see he has
 >put you name up with the maps in question at the site in
 >question.

 >Just in case, I found this e-mail for me. rajesh@earthweb.org

 >Great Maps and Data by the way.

 >Tophar


Thanks Tophar (Chris?)

I should add that I responded to Rajesh using three email
addresses, and only the .hotmail one seems to have gotten
through.


Best

- Larry








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              Re: Security Precautions in New York City - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:14:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:03:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City - Velez


 >From: "Jan Aldrich" <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Security Precautions in New York City
 >Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:16:42 -0400

 >Hello John Velez,

 >I can't seem to find your message in the "Technology Leaders
 >Ponder Fingerprint ID System" thread, and anyway I don't want to
 >get entangled in that messy thread.

 >The reason for the show of force in New York and elsewhere with
 >National Guardsmen and barriers and check points has reasons
 >beyond the terrorist threat. Copy cats, idiots and mentally ill
 >people.

 >When I was in Germany during the Gulf War, one of my assignments
 >was to come up with a plan for security of our post. Since the
 >PX, gas station, commissary, and housing areas were outside the
 >fenced-in areas this presented big problems.

 >The Special Weapons NCO and I went over to the military
 >intelligence and read everything we could find on the Iraqi
 >terrorists. They weren't too impressive at the time - now they
 >have become more competent and a threat close to the level of
 >Osama. However, at the time it was thought they might have some
 >terrorists in Germany and they might have the help of the
 >Communists governments, especially East Germany. There also was
 >the German "Red Army Faction" (RAF) and various other
 >Euroterrorists who might also take advantage of the scene, but
 >the reminder of this RAF group were cowardly people who were
 >willing to try to kill others as long as there was no
 >possibility that they would get a scratch. However, they had in
 >the past and probably would try to take advantage of any lax
 >security. Other problems that you have in this type of situation
 >involved copy cats, people with grudges, idiots, and mentally
 >ill people.

 >The idea was, with the soldiers available, to mount a guard
 >force, use barriers and checkpoints to discourage these last
 >groups of people, a show of force firstly and secondly to
 >possible disrupt other more competent terrorists. So we
 >established fixed guard posts, every fixed post had to be
 >visible to the other guard posts to the right and left. In the
 >parking lots vehicles were checked. Vehicles entering the post
 >were searched and checked with mirrors for possible bombs and
 >they had to go through a "snaked" barrier lined route so they
 >could not crash the gates. Similar measures for commercial and
 >contract delivery vehicles involved with the PX and commissary
 >were in place.

 >Besides this, we established walking patrols of two men each
 >with hand held radios. We sent patrols out in 15 minute
 >intervals each time the rear patrol lost sight of the lead
 >patrol, the rear patrol called in on their radio. In the fenced
 >areas, we had patrols on the outside of the fence one going in a
 >clockwise direction and patrols inside the fense going in a
 >counterclockwise direction.

 >In addition we had vehicle-mounted patrols that just drove
 >around the area, and a squad of off duty guards to act as a
 >reaction force with a vehicle for any problems.

 >In one of the highrise appartment buildings we put an overwatch
 >guard with starlight-scope and binos to keep a watch on
 >everything.

 >The Germans, of course, had overall police authority, they had
 >assigned civilian police to patrol unprotected areas, and
 >reserve military police had been called up to provide added
 >security. All that I saw was an occassional German military
 >police vehicle, but when a horn got stuck on a school bus, these
 >guys converged from every direction in about a dozen vehicles.
 >
 >We had several incidents where we thought we had been scouted.
 >In one case we had a license plate number that the German police
 >found had belonged to a junked vehicle and was therefore phony.

 >No one knows if these measures prevented anything from happening,
 >but it may have just prevented some jerk who identified with
 >Sadam from trying something.

 >In the US we now have jerks who placed pipe bombs under a bridge
 >here in Connecticut, and idiots who decide to play a prank on a
 >guy station on a local military base by tying a bunch of loose
 >electrical wires under a car to make it look like a bomb. So the
 >show of force in New York is part confidence building and part
 >an attempt to stop people inspired by the terrorists from
 >becoming "heroes" and other jerks that seem to come out when
 >these things happen.


Hiya Jan,

If they weren't taking any extra security measures they would be
remiss in their duty. The point I was "trying" to make was; we
are being asked to give up a lot of our (taken for granted)
freedoms right now. The 'reason' is legitimate. We all just need
to stay on our toes and pay attention to "which" of these little
liberties is being curtailed and which ones are to become a
permanent condition. As you know, when the possibility of
'abuse' exists in any system, there are always a few who will
try to take advantage and see just how far they can go before
being forced to back off by a public outcry.

I used strong language in my original. But, if you read Lara's
"never made it to the List" post, (yes, "Lara" of the
kinda-like, sorta-like fast,) you'll see that things started to
take an ugly turn. Not to mention a huge flying swan dive into
the 'deep end' of her empty concrete pool. That poor woman, I
really do feel sorry for her. She is the epitome of pathos. She
is one angry puppy. You gotta read some of the private tirades
that she composes and sends to me privately. There's enough
material there to keep a whole team of Viennese shrinks busy for
years!  No BS.

I hear you Jan. Let's all just wait and see 'how far' it all
goes and how long they plan to keep it enforced. Things like
increased security at airports and at key locations/buildings is
fine by me. Armed soldiers asking citizens to produce
identification on the streets of my hometown? It had better be a
'temporary' condition is all I will say.


Regards,

John Velez

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









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   Oct > Oct 17

                  Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:17:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:04:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Sandow


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:18:54 +0200

 >Before you appeal to him, I have carefully read Eddie Bullard
 >impressive work and found it seriously flawed. This is not the
 >place to detail my objections but I will point to an example.
 >Half of the cases he refers to in Brazil and Argentina are not
 >abductions but teleportations (see my article about them in the
 >next The Anomalist) or contactee tales. Besides, some of the
 >abductions included, such as Llanca's, have been seriously
 >debunked. He is the one mixing oranges and apples.

Luis,

You make many good and serious points in your comments to Jerry,
but I'm curious about this one. How many cases in Eddie's study
come from Brazil and Argentina? How many have been so seriously
debunked that you think they're hoaxes? If it's a high
percentage, I'd agree that there could be problems. But if it's
a low percentage, then maybe his study wouldn't be that badly
flawed, even by your critieria.

Which study did you mean, by the way? The original one from
1987?

One methodological note. I'm not sure why a few hoaxes makes
Eddie's study invalid. I'd expect hoaxed or fantasized
abductions to be very different from each other, especially
those from years ago, before the abduction story was so widely
known. So if Eddie's study shows great similarities, that would
seem to argue that most of them aren't hoaxes, even if some of
them are.


Greg Sandow









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   Oct > Oct 17

                       Alfred's Odd Ode #354 Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 18:49:44 +0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:06:11 -0400
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #354 Lehmberg


Alfred's Odd Ode #354

With pleasure I report � "They�re Back", and feel a strange
relief. For two long months they�d disappeared like burglars or
thieves. But back, in force, they�ve reappeared to crawl the
skies again, returning like the flying things that come back
every spring.

Yes! FIVE flew by on Sunday, well before the sun came up, well
before the coffee�s finished from a steaming coffee cup, and
wondering where they could go, for such a length of time, I
ponder their appearance in these metered words to rhyme.

I thought that they�d forsaken me, these stars that tack and
sail. I�d thought that they had gone away to fuel another�s
tale. But what could make appearance known so plainly up in
space, to disappear for days on end, then reappear with grace�

And grace they have in magnitudes of color, speed, and light.
Their paths are so uncertain; they are dim or pulsing -- bright.
And I feel a satisfaction that I don�t have if they�re gone. I
feel a strange assurance as I watch them glide along.

This morning I would see just one; that�s two days in a row. I
think they�re back I�m saying, but where, then, did they go?
I�d think I�m not worth watching, so they�re likely not for me,
but what have I been seeing in these objects flying free?

And what indeed, I ask myself, appears before my eyes? What
might these things, that go away, propitiously provide? To me
they are potentials well beyond the threat of war. To me they
are the opposite of that callused, shallow bore. To me they are
a promise and an answer to a song ... Is that all there is? Peg
Lee once asked... their answer�s clear and strong.


"No, you�re not alone at all, you silly human race. You populate
the corner of a wounded mote in space. Adrift in sad
belligerence, and complacent to the max, a sea of life surrounds
you that exists in heaps and stacks. It�s you yourselves won�t
listen to the rhythms of your seas, it�s you yourselves
retreating to the safety of your knees. It�s you yourselves
denying that which flies your troubled skies, and it�s you
yourselves that�s keeping us from landing right outside."


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
www.alienview.net








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   Oct > Oct 17

                        Re: AA... By The By - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:33:26 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:11:40 -0400
Subject: Re: AA... By The By - Tonnies


 >From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: AA... By The By
 >Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 00:41:09 +1000

<snip>

 >I have found that most inventions and ideas are brought into
 >this world from other ideas and/or by observing nature, real
 >life events, ECT. For this reason I feel the Alien is just to
 >close to the mark for someone to have just thought it up off the
 >bat, in my humble opinion.

I don't think the AA is a real intellectual or creative feat, if
it's made up.  But there are oddities that seem against the
"hoax for profit and fun" scenario.  For one thing: why not make
a "realistic" alien?  We've all seen FX labs do them, yet the AA
features a creature that looks essentially human.

If our hypothetical FX pranksters had chosen to use a standard
"Gray," they would have spared themselves the keen eyes of
medical commentators, who universally approach the AA as they
would the autopsy of a human being.  After all, no one knows
what the inside of a "Gray" looks like.

My essay on the AA, with photos, is here:

http://mactonnies.com/aa.html


Mac Tonnies










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   Oct > Oct 17

                  Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Aubeck

From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@email.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 18:13:48 +0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:15:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Aubeck


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez
 >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:18:54 +0200
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction

 >>From: Jerome Clark
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:47:58 -0500

 >>>From: Luis R. Gonzalez
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 >>>Subject: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:14:55 +0200


 >Jerry,

 >Thanks, I have always consider myself a sceptic. Now I know that am a
 >debunker. OK.

<snip>


 >>>The problem is that there are no two cases alike.

 >>What a strange notion, and flatly false. .

<snip>

 >Besides, some of the abductions included, such as Llanca's,
 >have been seriously debunked. He is the one mixing oranges and
 >apples. You can do it knowingly (mix UFOs = oranges and hoaxes=
 >apples), but after finding any patterns you must verify if they
 >apply not only to oranges but also to apples. If both
 >sub-samples are alike maybe they are all apples (no the other
 >way around, because we know for sure that hoaxes exists, but we
 >are not sure about UFOs)

 >LuisR


Hello Jerry, Luis, etc.,

While we're on the subject of alleged abductions, please allow
me to make a brief comparison between the Allagash report and
the much earlier Boston UFO sighting (of 1638 or 1639). I know
some of you dislike looking back in time for signs of the UFO
phenomenon (I'm not referring to Jerome Clark, of course, but I
am certainly referring to you, Luis) but history does not go
away. In fact there's more of it to look at every year, as old
documents come to light and rare manuscripts become available to
the general public for the first time, often on the w.w.w.

I wrote a longer version of the following for publication in a
Spanish magazine. I found another article dealing with the same
two cases somewhere on the Net, but I go into a little more
detail in mine.

Anyway, for what it's worth, here it is (please tell me if there
any inaccuracies I haven't spotted):

****************************************************************


UFOs over Boston

The settling of the first Puritan colony in Boston was
chronicled by Governor John Winthrop, who arrived in
Massachusetts Bay in 1630 with one thousand English migrants. A
historian himself, Winthrop kept a record of the colony�s first
years in the New World. His journal is far from being a mere
collection of unlikely anecdotes or village gossip. It is quite
significant, therefore, that he regarded two spectacular UFO
sightings as being sufficiently important to be recorded for
posterity.

The first sighting took place in March 1638 or 1639. A member of
the Puritan Church, James Everell, �a sober, discreet man�, was
crossing the Muddy River in a small boat with two companions. It
was about 10 o�clock in the evening. Suddenly a great luminous
mass appeared in the sky above the river, and remained
motionless. Everell estimated it to be about three yards square.
After a while the rectangular object or light �contracted into
the figure of a swine� and began to move: it darted away quickly
towards Charlton and then returned to its original position. It
did this repeatedly over a period of two or three hours, always
returning briefly to the same spot above the water before
shooting off again.

The three men, scared half to death, lay still in the boat,
unable to row or punt their way to the banks of the river. When
the light had finally vanished, Everell and his friends stood up
and were surprised to learn that the boat was now further
upstream than it should have been, as if it had been pushed,
pulled or carried by an unknown force. In fact they had been
carried against the tide to their original starting point, one
mile away.

It is difficult to speculate about the nature of a supernatural
event witnessed so long ago. However it is curious that the men
observed that �two or three hours� passed during the spectacle.
Can we believe they lay on the bottom of the boat for such a
long time? Were they abducted unknowingly? Three hours is how
long abductees typically endure at the hands of their alien
captors. The mysterious repositioning of the boat reinforces
this interpretation and also implies perhaps a �Missing Time�
experience. Everell could not fathom how the boat could have
moved upstream against a tide which had not ceased going out.
Moreover, we are left wondering why the men did not notice this
fact until after the object had gone.

Of course, any speculation at this late date is merely
conjecture. Yet it is interesting to note that at least a
superficial resemblance exists between this case and an event
which took place in the neighbouring state of Maine in 1976.

The Allagash Abduction affair, investigated thoroughly by
Raymond E. Fowler in the 1990s, has become a classic in the
field. It is the story of four men, two of whom were identical
twins, whose camping trip along the Allagash Waterway became an
adventure that they had not bargained for.

It happened one evening in late August. The four men reached
Smith Brook Campsite, a remote spot on Eagle Lake, and set up
their tents for the night. Forced to replenish their food
supply, they tried to catch some trout in the Brook, but had no
luck. Therefore, after finishing off what remained of their
fresh meat, they built a roaring fire with a large pile of logs
and set out onto the lake in their canoe.

They had paddled for about a quarter of a mile across the cove
when they noticed a huge bright sphere of light some 200 or 300
feet in the air above the shore. The object was completely
stationary, though it seemed to pulsate and display swirling
patterns on its surface. The men �sat awestricken� as they gazed
at the house-sized object from the canoe. One of the men decided
to flash an S.O.S. to it with his torch to see whether the
object would react. It did. The sphere began to move silently in
their direction and as it reached a point some 40 or 50 feet
above the surface of the water, emitted a long cone-shaped beam
of light towards them from underneath. Recounting the experience
to Fowler for the first time, the men consciously recalled
having panicked and to have splashed and paddled frantically to
get away from their pursuer... and then arriving calmly at the
shore and watching the light hover for a few minutes over the
lake before finally disappearing in the night sky.

This is the story of the �Allagash Four�, summarized from their
personal accounts of the event before serious investigation
began. However, even at that point they knew that something else
must have occurred that they were unable to remember.

"...[We] suddenly realized that our campfire was completely
burned down to coals. When we left to go fishing, we set very
large logs on the fire to burn for a good 2 to 3 hours. The
entire experience seemed to last, at the most, 15 or 20 minutes.
Yet the fire was completely burned down to red coals!"

Before going into the results of Fowler�s investigation of the
case, which involves a full- blown classical abduction scenario,
we can immediately see some curious correlations between the
Allagash affair and the 1639 event in Massachusetts:

� Both events concerned small groups of men in boats crossing
large stretches of water.

� The object is described as a huge bright �light� in both
cases.

� The objects are not seen as they arrive and initially hang
motionless in the sky over the water.

� There is an element of paralysis (possibly fear-induced) in
both cases. In the Allagash episode, one of the men, Chuck Rak,
�suddenly became inanimate...still holding his idle paddle, he
could not take his eyes off the object.� On the shore, they �all
seemed to be in a state of shock, because for a few minutes, we
just stood there unable to move or talk.� Fowler calls this a
�strange, anaesthetizing effect.�

� The boats are moved by the object.. In the 1976 case, the beam
from the sphere �moored the canoe.� Fowler writes:

"Chuck explained that, when they were taken from the canoe, it
had been about 1,000 feet from the shore. When placed back into
the canoe, it was only 30 feet from the shore. It was moving
much faster than they could paddle it. The bow was actually out
of the water! Chuck did not paddle. Chuck had the only paddle.
Yet the canoe was somehow guided directly to their camp
landing!"

� The duration of both events is described as �two or three
hours.�


It may or may not be relevant that the two incidents took place
in neighbouring states. Boston and Allagash are not too far
apart, and in his journal Winthrop mentions that the light seen
over the Muddy River was witnessed on several other occasions,
but always in the same area. We must also add that several of
the Allagash Four either live or have lived or studied in
Massachusetts, and three of them were living in Boston in 1976.

The second report recorded by Winthrop is dated Monday, January
18th 1644:

"About midnight three men, coming in a boat to Boston, saw two
lights arise out of the water�in form like a man, and went a
small distance to town�and there vanished away. They saw them
for about a quarter of an hour�"

****************************************************************

Personally I, too, am skeptical of the Allagash case, and I
could say why, but that's not what I do, at least at the moment.
I just collect pre-1947 cases, write them up, scan or photocopy
the original MS if possible, note any similarities there are
between old and modern reports (or old and older reports), and
then move on to the next one. I honestly don't think there's a
great deal more anyone can do most of the time, except of course
dice the apples and peel the oranges whenever the opportunity
arises.

Chris Aubeck









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               Re: Cellphones Spook British Ghosts - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 13:38:02 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 20:00:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Cellphones Spook British Ghosts - McGonagle


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 13:34:52 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Cellphones Spook British Ghosts
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Cellphones Spook British Ghosts
 >>Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 02:12:36 +0100

<snip>

 >Dear Joe, List, Errol,

 >It is interesting if the causal relationship which explains the
 >anti-phenom is correct. But might there be some other reason for
 >this decline in Casper and his friends in jolly old England? An
 >increase in RF all over the place in general? A bit of
 >undigested beef? Some underdone potato(e)? Or perhaps, too much
 >old wine from across the pond! These dudes should really try
 >Gripple.


Hi Jim & List,

There are at least two questions in my mind:

1. Is there any relationship between UFOs and other paranormal
activity?

2. Has proliferation of mobile phone technology decreased UFO
sightings?

Ignoring (1) for the moment, if the answer to (2) is "possibly",
then Jim has a very good point: is it the effects of radio
energy on the brain that inhibits either the presence of, or
sensitivity to UFOs?

Alternatively, if it has nothing to do with the brain, then does
a large amount of RF energy at particular frequencies present a
hostile environment for UFO's?

How many experiencers on the List own a mobile phone? Have you
noticed any change in the frequency or pattern of experiences
since you have owned one?

Anyway, Jim, where can I get Gripple in the UK? (Is it legal
over here?).


Regards,

Joe








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                    Re: Rendlesham Radiation - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 14:21:13 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 22:02:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Rendlesham Radiation - McGonagle



 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Rendlesham Radiation - Easton
 >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:35:18 +0100

 >Regarding:

 >>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 23:56:51 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Rendlesham: Landing Deposited 10x Background

 >Joe wrote:

<very severe snip-apologies, James>

 >"...the area was checked for radiation. Beta/gamma readings of
 >0.1 milliroentgens were recorded with peak readings in the three
 >depressions and near the center of the triangle formed by the
 >depressions. A nearby tree had moderate (0.5-0.7) readings on
 >the side of the tree toward the depressions".

 >On the 'point five scale', it's obviously impossible to obtain a
 >reading greater than 0.5 mR/h. This has been substantiated.

 >That could only have occurred if the AN/PDR-27 setting was 'X10 -
 >between 0-5 milliroentgens', or higher.

 >However, Halt confirms they were utilising, as we would expect,
 >the most sensitive setting.

 >Consequently, the 'minor clicks' and levels of 'up to seven
 >clicks' etc. which were being observed on the 'point five scale'
 >must have been between 0.05 and 0.07 mR/h.
 >[END OF EXTRACT]


I agree with all of this, but the issue really is (to my way of
thinking), that the readings can't be compared to the background
readings because of doubt concering how the readings were taken.

According to the report that I have from NRPB, Appendix A is a
copy of the "Guidance for surveyors". Point (10) in the section
headed "Notes on measurement procedures" states explicitly:

"Do not measure in densely wooded areas".

Even ignoring the other 13 notes in that section, point (10)
excludes all of the readings taken in the forest from any
comparison with the background levels.

<snip>

 >As I've noted before, later we hear:
 >
 >HALT: 2:44. We're at the far side of the second farmer's field
 >and made sighting again about 110 degrees. This looks like it's
 >clear off to the coast. It's right on the horizon. Moves about a
 >bit and flashes from time to time. Still steady or red in color.
 >Also after negative readings in the center of the field we're
 >picking up slight readings, four or five clicks now, on the
 >meter.
 >[END]


The readings in the field again cannot be compared to the
background readings, as it definitely does not comply with three
of the guidance notes, and may conflict with several others, eg:

  8. Measure at least 10m from 1m high walls and 15m from 2m high
     walls.

  9. Measure at least 10m from roads and other masonry surfaces.
11. Measure away from rivers or other large expanses of water.
12. Measure away from flooded or or very wet land.

[The land in the area is only slightly above sea level, and
appears to be very wet-Joe]

14. Measure over relatively even ground, avoiding hollows and
hillocks.

The three that it definitely contravenes relate to the equipment
used, how the tube is placed, and the duration of the readings,
which I covered in my original post.

<snip>

 >I'll need more time to consider that question of what the normal
 >background radiation would be. It would be interesting to
 >determine this for the record and how we equate an apparently
 >higher reading of 0.05 mR/hr from the 'far side of the second
 >farmer's field', which had nothing to do with perceived 'UFOs'.

I suspect that you wrote this before reading my most recent
post, but in case you didn't get it for some reason, the
background level from the NRPB document equated to 2
microRad/hour. Let me know if you want me to resend the post to
you directly, there was a conversion involved which you may like
to check.

Regards, Joe









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             Re: Security Precautions in New York City - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:16:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 22:07:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City - Aldrich


 >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:14:19 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City

 >>From: "Jan Aldrich" <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Security Precautions in New York City
 >>Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:16:42 -0400

Sorry, Errol, this is getting way off topic.

 >>Hello John Velez,

 >>I can't seem to find your message in the "Technology Leaders
 >>Ponder Fingerprint ID System" thread, and anyway I don't want to
 >>get entangled in that messy thread.

 >>The reason for the show of force in New York and elsewhere with
 >>National Guardsmen and barriers and check points has reasons
 >>beyond the terrorist threat. Copy cats, idiots and mentally ill
 >>people.

<snip>

 >>In the US we now have jerks who placed pipe bombs under a bridge
 >>here in Connecticut, and idiots who decide to play a prank on a
 >>guy station on a local military base by tying a bunch of loose
 >>electrical wires under a car to make it look like a bomb. So the
 >>show of force in New York is part confidence building and part
 >>an attempt to stop people inspired by the terrorists from
 >>becoming "heroes" and other jerks that seem to come out when
 >>these things happen.

 >Hiya Jan,

 >If they weren't taking any extra security measures they would be
 >remiss in their duty. The point I was "trying" to make was; we
 >are being asked to give up a lot of our (taken for granted)
 >freedoms right now. The 'reason' is legitimate. We all just need
 >to stay on our toes and pay attention to "which" of these little
 >liberties is being curtailed and which ones are to become a
 >permanent condition. As you know, when the possibility of
 >'abuse' exists in any system, there are always a few who will
 >try to take advantage and see just how far they can go before
 >being forced to back off by a public outcry.

 >I used strong language in my original. But, if you read Lara's
 >"never made it to the List" post, (yes, "Lara" of the
 >kinda-like, sorta-like fast,) you'll see that things started to
 >take an ugly turn. Not to mention a huge flying swan dive into
 >the 'deep end' of her empty concrete pool. That poor woman, I
 >really do feel sorry for her. She is the epitome of pathos. She
 >is one angry puppy. You gotta read some of the private tirades
 >that she composes and sends to me privately. There's enough
 >material there to keep a whole team of Viennese shrinks busy for
 >years! No BS.

John, I received one of these. Her information is limited to
the few things she has read or heard, I am not at all surprised
that she gulped down Greer in one sitting. It is not sin to be
ignorant, however, to want to remain ignorant that is
inexcusable.

 >I hear you Jan. Let's all just wait and see 'how far' it all
 >goes and how long they plan to keep it enforced. Things like
 >increased security at airports and at key locations/buildings is
 >fine by me. Armed soldiers asking citizens to produce
 >identification on the streets of my hometown? It had better be a
 >'temporary' condition is all I will say.

I would say that things would be the same after a major storm,
earthquake or natural disaster. The idea of the military hanging
around - even the National Guard - give people the creeps.
However, there were special Presidential powers due to a "state
of emergency" from the Korean War to the end of the Vietnam War.
I see no actions in Congress to restate such a thing. I know
within the military this made life easier for us as we didn't
going through more thorough procedures, shortcuts were in place.

As for idiots, here in Connecticut the state Dept of
Environmental Protection (DEP) was shut down, people had to
disrobe and endure decontamination, just because some clown
wrote Anthrax on a paper and spilled coffee-creamer on it. The
DEP is one of our agencies that responses to biological
contamination so the agency was hamstrung for almost the whole
day by this idiot's hoax. A second threat via telephone to use
biological agents on the state capitol was quickly tracked down
due to heightened security and the fact that the necessary
people and equipment in the proper place to trace the call. The
FBI was able to trace the call, and local police caught the guy
before he hung up the telephone. Normally, these wackos would
get a slap on the wrist. I hope in these time they throw the
book at them. The state has a law that allows recovery of twice
the cost of the hoax. In the case of the DEP hoax that is over
one million dollars.

Now in France during heightened security I have stepped off a
train and been faced with French police carrying submachine
guns. In the airport in Athens, I saw the airport police
swaggering around with automatic weapons in their hands, fingers
on the trigger. On closer inspection, they had the safeties off.
Not at all reassuring in case one of them slipped.

If you read about the aftermath of Pearl Harbor, you will find
that the security measures here were far greater than now.


Regards,

Jan Aldrich









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   Oct > Oct 17

              Re: Security precautions in New York City - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 08:12:30 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 22:12:26 -0400
Subject: Re:  Security precautions in New York City - McCoy


Hello, all.

Sunday evening, the History Channel had a Program "Secrets of
the Cold War" (I think) that explained the Nike/Ajax weapons
system. there were 19 or so Nike sites in and around the New
York area (and across the U.S.)

The Nike system was to be the last resort to knock down Russian
Bombers as they made their way to the U.S. - the Nike/Ajax were
armed with a Nuke that had a yield that was "Twice the power of
the Hiroshima Bomb." most folks didn't know that. Very few did.

My point is that there were some pretty spooky things we did/had
to protect the U.S. from attack. even in the 60's. (There was a
rumor that the Nike/Ajax had a modest anti missile capability -
I'd like to know more about that.)

While I don't pretend to know about all the precautions that are
going on in New York, The U.S. Coast Guard has a Cutter
Patrolling the Coos Bay channel and they are searching all the
(few) ships that come in here.

Yet, some idiot put a powdery substance on the doorknob of the
BLM offices-shutting them down - just for grins. I have a
problem with that. It could be called "aiding and abetting the
enemy" if you will. Hoaxers are a scourge on humanity anyway.
This isn't however, pie plates on a string. This is meant to
cause harm. We all are affected.


Note: BLM is an Acronym for Bureau of Land Management. My
neighbor works at the Coos Bay office. Even here in the Outback
of Southern Oregon, we are affected.


GT McCoy










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                       CCCRN News: Fall 2001 Lectures

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:49:31 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 22:17:32 -0400
Subject: CCCRN News: Fall 2001 Lectures


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

October 17, 2001

_____________________________


UPCOMING LECTURES - FALL 2001

Exclusive overviews, with slides and video, of the Canadian crop
circles in 2001 (with a bumper crop of 20 reported formations
overall this year) as well as international reports, including
the results of Crop Watch 2001, CCCRN's annual field
investigation project in the Canadian prairies during the
August/September 'circle season', with both aerial and ground
documentation and other anomalous effects experienced and
recorded.

The Journeys Beyond Conference in Mobile, Alabama will include a
joint presentation by CCCRN director Paul Anderson and BLT
Research Team field research coordinator Nancy Talbott. As a
tie-in with the Canadian overview, Nancy will new provide new
information on lab testing results, from three other independent
scientists/labs in the US in the fields of minerology, x-ray
diffraction, geology and statistical analysis, of soil samples
from the Edmonton, Alberta seven-circle pictogram formation from
1999 which have provided some of the strongest evidence yet for
a real phenomenon, relating to heat effects on soil. These
studies support previous findings suggesting the involvement of
high, short-duration heat in the creation of at least some crop
formations.

In Vancouver, CCCRN gives regular presentations for the Monday
Night Free Lectures at Barclay Manor, a beautiful historical
house in the heart of Vancouver's West End close to downtown
(part of the West End Community Centre).


FIELDS OF DREAMS 2001
Barclay Manor Monday Night Free Lectures
Vancouver, BC
October 22, 2001
Barclay Manor, 1447 Barclay Street, Vancouver, BC
7:30 pm - 9:30 pm
Free admission (call 604.257.8333 to pre-register as seating is
                 limited)
Presented by Barclay Manor/The West End Community Centre
For further information:
Tel: 604.257.8349 or 604.257.8333 (to pre-register)

FIELDS OF DREAMS 2001
CONTACT Meeting
Bellingham, Washington, USA
November 3, 2001
Bellingham Public Library (Main Conference Room), 2
10 Central Avenue,
Bellingham, Washington
3:00 pm - 6:00 pm
Free admission ($5.00 donation requested)
Presented by CONTACT (Center for Ontological Action)
For further information:
Tel: 360.380.0473
E-Mail: mdthuney@email.msn.com

CROP CIRCLES: CANADIAN WONDERS AND BLT's DEFINITIVE EVIDENCE
Journeys Beyond Conference
Mobile, Alabama, USA
November 9 - 11, 2001
Adam's Mark Hotel, 64 South Water Street, Mobile, Alabama
CCCRN/BLT presentation: November 10, 2001, 3:00 pm - 5:30 pm
Other scheduled speakers:
Stanton Friedman, John Mack, Budd Hopkins, Dannion Brinkley,
Dolores Cannon, Pat Fitzhugh, Bruce Moen, William Henry,
Franceen King
Admission: $110.00 (all lectures, before October 15), $125.00
(all lectures, after October 15, before November 1), $140.00
(all lectures, at the door), $15.00 (individual lectures) or
$20.00 - $25.00 (individual workshops), all prices US $s
Presented by Journeys Beyond
For further information:
Tel: 251.626.6131
Fax: 251.625.2908
E-Mail: pat@journeysbeyond.com
Web: www.journeysbeyond.com

==^=============================================================









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   Oct > Oct 17

                        Re: AA... By The By - Tophar

From: Chris Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 01:34:15 +1000
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 22:46:34 -0400
Subject: Re: AA... By The By - Tophar


 >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:33:26 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: AA... By The By
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: AA... By The By
 >>Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 00:41:09 +1000

 ><snip>

 >My essay on the AA, with photos, is here:

 >http://mactonnies.com/aa.html

Some very good observations you have made there Mac, you know I
had not noticed the Alien was missing a navel until you pointed
it out.

I for some time, held the belief that the Greys were taking the
reproductive systems of cows and using this to grow the bodies
in. But seeing the Greys have no navel brings up the problem of
how did they get the nutrients needed into the body for it to
grow?

I cannot tell all that much from the AA tape from the video
store, but seeing you have the CD, can you tell if there are any
scares on the Grey's abdomen? Just wondering if this is why the
Grey has no navel and how the artificial heart valve might have
gotten in there. If this has been covered else-were just a link
would do thank you.

I myself see the human body as being the only way to go as far
as designs go, don't think it can be topped as a versatile unit
to get around in. Only problem I can fore-see is the fact the
human body doesn't fair all that well in outer space or around
highly charged magnetic fields. Seems the greys have sorted out
these problems though. But I do totally agree with your view
about why didn't the makers of this AA flim, (if it is a hoax)
use a classic type of alien instead of the one they did. The
classic type of alien would have been more believeable. Perhaps.


Tophar










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                          Filer's Files #42 - 2001

From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:21:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 22:57:16 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #42 - 2001


FILER'S FILES #42 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
October 17, 2001, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com,

UFO SIGHTINGS HAVE BEEN OBSERVED AROUND THE WORLD. UFOs were
spotted in New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Florida,
Michigan, Wisconsin, Missouri, Nebraska, Puerto Rico, Chili,
United Kingdom, Ireland, India, and Australia. Britain and US
continue attacks on Taliban in Afghanistan.

ITS A WONDERFUL WORLD

If anyone is out there watching Earth from space apparently we
have the appearance of signaling. The sun's light reflects in
different ways off the oceans, land, city lights and clouds.
Our view from Mars would be fairly spectacular with the
shimmering lights. The reason we may have visitors is that our
Earth would attract passers by with lights and electronic
signals.

ASTRONOMERS DISCOVER EIGHT EXTRASOLAR PLANETS

On October 15, 2001, astronomers announced they have discovered
eight more extrasolar planets, including three that scientists
called "cousins" of planets in our own solar system. This
brings the total number of extrasolar planets to nearly eighty.
It also indicates the universe is full of more planets than
there are grains of sand on the seashore.
http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0110/16solarsystems/

SUN CAUSES TORNADO RECORD SET FOR EARLY OCTOBER

Mitch Battros writes, "In the last several months the Sun and
Earth have experienced an unexpected, some suggest
unprecedented, amount of sunspots and solar activity in the way
of M-Class, X-Class flares, and numerous CME's (coronal mass
ejection's). This is more evidence showing an undeniable
connection between the Sun's increased activity and 'record
breaking' weather on Earth? I have been documenting evidence
ever since I asked the question in 1997, when scientists
claimed the bad weather was caused by El Nino. Hmm, what is El
Nino?" Well no one seemed to know the answer. This is what
started a wondrous journey to discover where all this wild
weather was coming from. My research ended with the Sun. It
quickly became evident there was a direct correlation between
the Sun's activity (Solar Flares, CME's, Geomagnetic storms),
and extreme weather to shortly follow. In fact, it occurs
within 48 hours after solar events occur.

What has not developed as of yet, is a way of predicting
'where' on Earth we will experience the extreme weather events.
I expect this will be developed within the next 2 to 5 years.
I was able to create a very simple equation which indicates the
chain of events which occur showing the Sun to Earth
connection. Equation: Sunspots => Solar Flares => Magnetic
Shift => Shifting Ocean and Jet Stream Currents => Extreme
Weather. You can sign up, with Mitch Battros by sending an
email to: magic@texaseast.com with your name and email address.

NEW YORK BRIGHT BLUE SQUARE

LAFAYETTE -- On October 1, 2001, a low flying object changed
from bright blue square to red diamond shape. The witness
reports, "I was driving west on Route 20 between Pompey and
Lafayette, with my two children ages 13 and 11. About 9:00 PM,
15 feet in front of us were 4 bright blue lights moving above
us. They were in the shape of a square. I stopped my car and
opened my window and there was a very loud noise. Then all the
lights turned red and the shape changed to a diamond shape.
The object moved at a rapid rate of speed, then all the noise
stopped. There was complete silence and then the object
disappeared from view. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
National UFO Center www.ufocenter.com

WORLD TRADE CENTER VIDEO

MUFON's Photo Expert JEFF SAINIO reports that he has reviewed
several videos taken on September 11, 2001, during terrorist
attacks. He states, "Sorry, I just don't see anything. I
guess in "JPG 1 it is seen slightly to the left and above the
wing." I simply don't see anything there. There is a tiny
spot on the right side in the later frames; it's so small it
doesn't mean much. Could be a distant plane, many miles away.

Remember, "everything in the air is unidentified until it's
identified." This is not to say that every plane, leaf,
balloon, and insect should be investigated. People should look
for clear evidence of something unusual, not assume that every
tiny blob in a picture is proof of men from Mars. Thanks to
Jeff Sainio.

NEW JERSEY FLYING TRIANGLE

A friend and I observed a flying triangle in the early morning
of October 7, 2001. We were around mile marker 85-90 on the
Garden State Parkway, northbound, at 1:15 AM. It was
essentially three lights of even brightness, white like stars,
and in a fairly perfect, isosceles triangle. There was no
object visible, just the lights, but their precise arrangement
gave the impression of it being one object, and motionless. It
looked like a triangular Constellation of medium brightness,
white stars in the sky, and seemed for some reason to be maybe
twice as large as a regular airplane. It was about a mile up.
Nearby there was a regular star, and at first we tried to make
sure, these were not stars. These didn't twinkle like stars.
They were simply three pinpoints of very white lights, very
clear and steady, and no other lights could be seen as part of
an aircraft, like strobes, red/green markers, etc. It was
probably about 20 degrees up on the horizon, I'm guessing, and
I wou! ld have guessed it was well south of Newark. It
certainly wasn't going very fast.

We were not far from McGuire AFB. When I first pointed it out
to Mike, in the car with me, he was also clearly struck by how
unusual it looked in the sky, and said something like, "What is
that?" We probably could see it clearly for about ten seconds
before it started to fade, all three lights at the same rate,
as if it were entering a cloud or a mist, but the sky was
actually very, very clear that night. It dimmed to completely
invisible within the next 10-20 seconds. My impression of it
was maybe I was seeing the famed "Westchester wing," which I
think I might have observed from a car at high altitude once
before about 10 years ago. Thanks to bob Larson
http://boblarson.com

PENNSYLVANIA FIREBALL

Stan Gordon reports that on October 10, 2001, I received
reports that fireball sightings were reported from Warren
County, PA near the New York line at 9:00 PM. One witness I
interviewed, said that she saw a huge blazing orange ball of
fire moving north. During the evening I learned that other
similar reports originated from Armstrong and Mercer Counties.
I was also told that emergency centers near Youngstown, Ohio
received many sighting reports. A resident of Allegheny
County, near Pittsburgh, had knowledge that police in that area
also received reports of something moving across the sky. I
also interviewed a witness from Latrobe, PA in Westmoreland
County, who watched a big orange-red ball of fire "as bright as
the moon" followed by a glowing tail which tapered off in
thickness. I am awaiting additional data concerning this event.
Thanks to Stan Gordon-Researcher PA UFO/ 724-838-7768
paufo@westol.com.

MARYLAND SIGHTING

ROCKVILLE -- Mr. Brown writes, "I was 10 years old in 1966,
when a very large UFO arrived and stayed over our house for a
long time. It took many years for me to remember this event.
My first recall was outside watching it go away. Then after
talking with family members, because of recurring dreams about
seeing technology and UFOs, I began going through a period of
time where I was flooded with recall, dreams, waken notions,
visions, understandings, and even remote viewing, that
ultimately culminated in an accumulated pile of information on
how their propulsion works. I have heard reports a certain
percentage of close encounters report having been shown
technology. My knowledge of antigravity propulsion design is
good solid evidence of human contact with alien visitors. I
was a drop out in the late 60's with no credits, had no
interest in school; but after the recall of these visions and
notions, I began research into science, physics and technology.
I found a continual ! confirmation to the design as it came to
me. There also are other UFO encounters I have recalled
immediately after being reminded about them by an old friend
who was with me at the time. I also have experienced several
more while my wife or our sons are with us. The recall began
around 1994, and the sightings have continued until this year,
where we now live in Texas. Thanks to Mr. Brown
ufolight@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/ufolight

FLORIDA BULLET SHAPED UFO

STARKE -- Katana Lana writes, "In the late summer of 1997, I
was driving in my car with my kids one night down a dark county
road. We saw a huge bullet-shaped craft in the sky, so I
pulled over and parked. Looking up, we saw a large diameter
but short in length bullet like object very high in the sky
moving north. It had an orange glow and there were orange-red
"sparks" all around the nose of the craft as you would see in a
movie when something enters the Earth's atmosphere. It seemed
very high, as it didn't appear to be moving much. Only by the
sparks could one tell it was traveling at a high rate of speed.
Our house was just a mile away, so we hurried home after about
10 minutes of watching this thing. Once there, the craft was
still visible, seemingly in the same place as before, still
bombarded with sparks at the nose. It was much too large to be
a plane of any sort, had no visible wings, windows or lights,
just that orange glow. I am assuming it could have been s! ome
sort of cargo craft. It seemed far too large to be able to
have taken off from the ground, perhaps the nose of a rocket,
but, yes, it was huge. Thanks to Katana Lana Austin.

MICHIGAN FIREBALL

HOWELL -- At 7:39 PM Tuesday, October 2, I was driving east on
Clyde Road four miles north of Howell, when overhead I noticed
a bright white fireball trailing a line of blue and white
sparks. The fireball descended at a rapid pace moving east.
Its diameter was about the size of a pea held at arm's length.
It was much larger and brighter than what is seen during a
meteor shower (i.e., falling stars). As I said, I first
noticed it through the top left of my windshield as it shot
downward at what I guessed to be a 60-degree angle. It
descended below the horizon. I thought it might hit maybe 10
miles east. Thanks to NUFORC www.ufocenter.com .com

WISCONSIN HIGH SPEED LIGHTS

GRAFTON -- Nick B. writes, "I was with my friends on the night
October 6, 2001, and we were walking around at about 9:15 PM.
I was just looking up at the North Star and I noticed something
that looked exactly like a star but it just started moving
across the sky. I watched it and realized it was going fast.
One of my friends knows planes really well. When I showed him,
he took a moment and said, "It moved too fast to be a plane and
it wasn't blinking red or green. Therefore, I finally pointed
it out to the rest of my friends and they all agreed with me
that it wasn't a satellite or a plane. We watched it until we
couldn't see it anymore. There were nine people who saw it
including me. It didn't make any noise it just looked like a
star, but moving really fast across the night sky. Thanks to
nick

MONTICELLO AND ALBANY -- Also on October 6, 2001, UFOWisconsin
reports that at sunset a friend saw something, phoned me as
"it" left his area and while on the phone with him, I saw this
"thing" too. When it was visible to him, he and his grown son
had it in sight through binoculars - and said it looked like a
long oval with two spumes of fire coming out. What I saw, with
just my eyes, was a long BRIGHT cylinder moving very slowly
towards New Glarus (8 miles from Belleville). It was weird. By
the time I went in to get a scope, and came back out, it had
finally disappeared. Thanks to Jenny Hoppe and ufowisconsin:
http://www.ufowisconsin.com/county/reports/r2001_1006_ozaukee.h
tml

MISSOURI DIAMOND SHAPED CRAFT

ASHGROVE -- At 8:03 PM on October 4, 2001, three witnesses
watched a saucer shaped object flying above them. They report
it had white stationary lights on the bottom and each side with
a blinking bright white light on the top. The light on the
left side was dimmer then the rest and sometimes went out.
Then came back on again. Not flashing just turned off, and
then back on in a few minutes, it did this 4 times. It sat in
a stationary position for about 7 minutes then slowly "floated"
to the south. It bobbed up and down slightly and moved from
side to side slightly, there was no sound except for the planes
that passed close to it landing at the Springfield airport.
This object appeared to be about 9 miles east of us over
Springfield's Branson Airport. A 727 landed while this object
was still overhead. The object was five times wider, and much
taller then the 727. In addition, this was not any kind of
blimp. This object stayed in sight for 14 minutes and then
disappear! ed. No movement, no nothing, just gone. Thanks to
Peter Davenport who indicates this case is under investigation
by Missouri Investigators Group.

NEBRASKA DISK-LIKE OBJECT FLYING

FREDERICTON -- My boyfriend and I were walking back from seeing
a movie and it was around midnight on September 28, 2001. We
had stopped to look at the Little Dipper in the sky when he
said, "Did you see that falling star? " I was disappointed that
I hadn't seen it, and then he said, "What's that! Look!!" I
looked up to where he was pointing and it was obviously
something shaped like a disk or saucer. We saw the curve to it
perfectly, and it had a series of six or seven red lights on
it. It was flying through the sky slowly, but we had to run to
keep up with it, so we wouldn't loose it behind some trees.
There were NO clouds except for a few that were obvious to the
eye, but there were none around the object. We couldn't hear
anything that would have made it an airplane and it was moving
too flawlessly to be an airplane. We watched it for nearly a
minute, and then it just disappeared. It was so beautiful!
Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

PUERTO RICO UFO SPOTTED

SAN JUAN -- On Tuesday, October 9, 2001, a correspondent for
ovni.net reported having sighted a UFO over Rio Piedras at 4:40
PM. He spotted a flattened oval silvery white craft flying
horizontal towards the west when it suddenly tilted ten degrees
downward. The speed was faster than an aircraft and its height
was low as it passed behind some buildings and disappeared.
The witness was driving along Expreso las Americas highway. The
witnessed immediately phoned Orlando Pla who climbed onto his
roof, since from that vantage point the area in question can be
perfectly seen. Thanks to Scott Corrales, Institute of
Hispanic Ufology. Translation (c) 2001 Lucy Guzman,
http://www.ovni.net/

CHILE PYRAMID-SHAPED UFO

BEACH OF CAVANCHA -- On October 5, 2001, a gigantic
pyramid-shaped UFO was seen in the Northern Chilean City of
Iquique. The eyewitnesses were a taxi driver and two of his
passengers. They claimed that the UFO was about 300 yards long
and shaped like a pyramid. Carlos was driving at 7:45 PM, when
some lights were seen coming from the south side of the beach.
At first, it looked like an aircraft, but as it got closer and
closer, perhaps too close for any ordinary aircraft -- it
hovered a kilometer from the highway. As Carlos passed a
curve, he was able to view the object form a slightly different
angle and noticed that around the object was red, yellow, and
green flashing lights, as well as a white light at the top. It
almost looked like a giant stealth bomber. However, this
object was about 300 yards in length, so it was not a plane.
As it got closer, Carlos began to accelerate the car.
Suddenly, a very bright light came out from the bottom of the
object, illuminating! the entire beach. "It was scary; the
light was so strong that we were able to see the waves in the
ocean. When I turned to see my passengers, they were
speechless. We were all astonished," he said. The cab driver
claimed that the sighting lasted about 20 minutes. Thanks to
Jaime Ferrer Calama UFO Center translated by Mario Andrade, and
reports@ufoinfo.com <ufoupdates@home.com>

IRELAND BRIGHT MOVING LIGHTS

BRAY/COUNTY WICKLOW -- On October 11, 2001, The witness reports
seeing a remarkable, bright light, that was very low, too
bright to be a star and very clear. I got the video camera and
started to record, when I zoomed the camera, I could see the
lights circling around an object, and turning. I kept
recording but it was very cloudy and sometimes the clouds
prevented it to be seen, I waited till it came back and went on
recording between 8:26 to 8:47 PM, When I was tired, I left
recording. It was still there, when a big piece of cloud
stopped our view. The object moved from the northwest to north
east Thanks to frank@indigo.ie and Joe Trainor Masinaigan

UNITED KINGDOM TRANSPARENT DISK

LONDON -- The witness reports, On October 4, 2001, I was on the
9:30 AM Flight leaving Heathrow Airport. The plane was in a
steady climb and when we reached about 10 to 15 thousand feet
above the puffy sparse clouds I was looking out the forward
window. Looking as close to straight down as I could, I saw
some sort of movement between the ground and the puffy clouds
right below us. I could see that the ground was being
distorted as this object passed above it. It caused a wavy
appearance to the ground. Looking closer I could see a
definite line where the distortion ended, it looked like a huge
contact lens, or a clear plastic disk flying beneath us. I
watched the disc pass under three or four clouds and always
continue on the other side. I could only track it so far
because of the small windows on a 777. I then leaned back and
could still see it in the window that was in line with my
shoulder. It was traveling in the opposite direction as the
airplane, and going maybe ! three times faster than the clouds
passing below us. I watched it until I could see it no more
due to the small windows. Right after it was gone I noticed
directly below us a nuclear power plant. This object was
traveling away from the power plant. I believe this was not a
reflection as it was observed from two different windows. It
took me a few seconds to realize that what I had seen was
really there. Thanks to NUFORC

INDIA DISC

NEW DELHI -- Sunila reports that on August 15, 2001, a huge
dark silver gray flying saucer shaped UFO was observed for 7 or
8 minutes. The object was flying low. The witness indicated
the color was silver gray. The object looked like two saucers
inverted over each other and moved slowly across the sky.
There were no known other witnesses in the neighborhood.
Thanks to sunilatandon@hotmail.com (sunila) and Joe Trainor
reports@ufoinfo.com

AUSTRALIA ORANGE OVAL UFO

BRISBANE, QUEENSLAND -- The witness reports I was in my car
near the small town of Dayboro on the 8th of October 2001 at
around 6:00 PM when we struck a dog crossing the road. We
turned into a nearby house to ask if they owned the dog. As we
entered the driveway an orange, oval shaped object in the sky
caught my eye. It moved slowly to the left and then suddenly
shifted its course diagonally downward. It disappeared behind a
shed. The orange glowed brightly but did not change. As soon as
I saw it I new it was something weird. COLOR/SHAPE: Bright
Orange, Oval. It moved slowly at first but when it changed
direction its speed tripled instantly. It was 3 to 4000 feet
high. There was a report of two other very similar sightings
at the same time at different locations in Brisbane on a
popular radio station called JJJ (107.7fm) Thanks to Joe
Trainor Masinaigan


DISCLOSURE PROJECT

NEW YORK -- Disclosure presentation by Steven Greer, M.D., NYC
on October 26, with Video Taped Testimony of Military,
Government & Intelligence Witnesses Friday, Oct. 26, 7:30 PM:
The New York Academy of Medicine, Hosack Hall, 1216 5th Ave. at
103rd St., NYC $10 Facility Fee Donation. Parking: Academy, 50
spaces free after 5:30 PM, 1st come basis; Merit Parking, 107th
& Madison Ave. Doors open 6:30 PM Disclosure Video
Presentation starts at 7:30 PM., Thanks to Jim Schilder
Disclosure volunteer


SAINT LOUIS MUFON CONFERENCE -- MUFON Conference at J.C.Penny
Auditorium, University of Missouri, St.Louis Campus, 9am-9pm.,
Nov.3rd.,2001, FLYING SAUCERS - HIDDEN HISTORY - 2001 (D-Day
of Disclosure) 1) Press Conference 2) Richard Dolan - U.F.O.'s
and the National Security State 3) Harold E. Burt - Flying
Saucers 101 4) Dr.Carol Rosin - The Future of Space And
Extraterrestrial Intelligence 5) Stanton T. Friedman - Putting
The Pieces Back Together Again 6) Special Speakers Panel $10.00
per each of six sessions,or $50.00 before November for all.
1-800-489-4UFO, MUFON/MISSOURI,
P.O.Box#643,St.Charles,Mo.63302, < bwidaman@earthlink.net >,or
636-946-1394, The Airport Marriot Hotel $65.00 Thanks to:
Bruce Widamen State Director Missouri

BEFORE YOU BUY OR SELL A HOME SEE MY FREE REPORT All real
estate agents are not the same? Some real estate agents are
part timers and inexperienced while others are experts. When
you are selling or buying your home, you need to make sure you
have the best real estate agent working for you! Remember, the
majority of people do not know the right questions to ask, and
what pit falls can cause major problems. Picking the right
real estate agent can be a wonderful experience, and picking
the wrong one can be a big mistake! Find out, " What you need
to understand before hiring any real estate agent!" To get a
free report, e-mail Majorstar@Aol.com.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL for $30 per year by
contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended you for
membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2001 by George A.
Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the
files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its
editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared. These reports and comments are not necessarily the
official MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants
permission for us to publish and use your name. Please state
if you wish to keep your name, address, or story confidential.
Caution, most of these are initial reports and require further
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                          Secrecy News -- 10/17/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:14:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:46:54 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/17/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
October 17, 2001


**      ASHCROFT TELLS AGENCIES TO RESIST FOIA RELEASES
**      FRUS VOLUME ON GREECE DUE IN DECEMBER
**      OCTOBER 17 COMES AND GOES


ASHCROFT TELLS AGENCIES TO RESIST FOIA RELEASES

Attorney General John Ashcroft has issued a new statement of
policy that encourages federal agencies to resist Freedom of
Information Act (FOIA) requests whenever they have legal grounds
to do so.

The new statement supersedes a 1993 memorandum from Attorney
General Janet Reno which promoted disclosure of government
information through the FOIA unless it was "reasonably
foreseeable that disclosure would be harmful."

The Ashcroft policy rejects this "foreseeable harm" standard.

Instead, the Justice Department instructs agencies to withhold
information whenever there is a "sound legal basis" for doing
so.

"When you carefully consider FOIA requests and decide to
withhold records, in whole or in part," the Attorney General
advised, "you can be assured that the Department of Justice will
defend your decisions unless they lack a sound legal basis...."

The new FOIA policy statement, issued October 12, is posted
here:

http://www.usdoj.gov/oip/foiapost/2001foiapost19.htm

For purposes of comparison, Attorney General Reno's 1993
memorandum may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/clinton/reno.html

As with many of the Bush Administration's new restrictions on
public information, the new policy is only peripherally related
to the fight against terrorism. Rather, it appears to exploit
the current circumstances to advance a predisposition toward
official secrecy.


FRUS VOLUME ON GREECE DUE IN DECEMBER

The long-delayed publication of the official Foreign Relations
of the United States (FRUS) volume on US policy towards Greece,
Cyprus and Turkey in 1964-1968 is now scheduled for December of
this year, according to the State Department's latest status
report on the FRUS series.

Publication of this unclassified volume has been fiercely
resisted by senior CIA officials because it alludes to covert US
intervention in Greek elections during the 1960s.

The anticipated FRUS publication schedule, updated as of this
month, is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/advisory/state/frusstat.html

The State Department Historical Advisory Committee on Monday
approved release of minutes of its June 2001 meeting. The
minutes include discussion of current declassification disputes
with the CIA, a forthcoming retrospective volume on the Congo,
and National Security Agency declassification activity in
support of FRUS. See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/advisory/state/hac0601.html


OCTOBER 17 COMES AND GOES

Today marks a deadline that was established by the Clinton
Administration for declassification of 25 year old records, but
this milestone is not expected to have much of an impact.

One of the "revolutionary" features of the 1995 executive order
12958 on classification and declassification policy was its
requirement that historically valuable 25 year old records (that
are not otherwise exempt) were to be automatically declassified
after 5 years "whether or not the records have been reviewed"
(Sec. 3.4).

In 1999, executive order 13142 extended that 5 year deadline for
automatic declassification by 18 months for general records and
by 36 months for intelligence records or those requiring
multi-agency review. See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/isoo/amendfact.html

Today, October 17, 2001, the 18 month extension period comes to
an end.

What is the practical effect of this automatic declassification
deadline? "Not much," said an Administration official.

The volume of records that might have affected by today's date
has been diminished by a number of factors: many records have
been specifically exempted under one of the executive order's
nine exemptions; other records have already been declassified;
and many of the remainder have been excluded from automatic
declassification by congressional intervention.

Meanwhile, the Bush Administration is quietly developing a new
executive order on classification and declassification policy to
amend or replace the 1995 Clinton order. No details concerning a
new order have been disclosed.


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@lists.fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:
   subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]


Secrecy News is archived at:
   http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691








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   Oct > Oct 18

                      'Hooked On The Outdoors' Magazine

From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 18:34:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:49:49 -0400
Subject: 'Hooked On The Outdoors' Magazine


The winter, 2001, issue of "Hooked on the Outdoors" magazine
published in the US - see: http://www.ruhooked.com

will feature a special section on the paranormal by writer Todd
Wilkinson. To be included are stories on the Allagash abduction
case, among other "outdoors-y" paranormal stories.


Purrrrs...

wac









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                 Re: Security Precautions in New York City -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 18:48:13 +0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:53:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City -


 >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:14:19 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City

 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Security Precautions in New York City
 >>Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:16:42 -0400

<snip>


 >Hiya Jan,

 >If they weren't taking any extra security measures they would be
 >remiss in their duty. The point I was "trying" to make was; we
 >are being asked to give up a lot of our (taken for granted)
 >freedoms right now. The 'reason' is legitimate. We all just need
 >to stay on our toes and pay attention to "which" of these little
 >liberties is being curtailed and which ones are to become a
 >permanent condition. As you know, when the possibility of
 >'abuse' exists in any system, there are always a few who will
 >try to take advantage and see just how far they can go before
 >being forced to back off by a public outcry.

We couldn't be in any more agreement � especially in these
extreme times. A nation as large and powerful as ours must be
able to bear relevant criticism of suspect actions or we are
nothing more than just another bully on the international
playground. This Rome of the 21st Century has additional
responsibilities when it can impose its will anywhere in the
world. Our agreement is so synchronous that the irony of your
following words is an unpleasant, ill-founded, and uncalled for
disappointment.

 >I used strong language in my original. But, if you read Lara's
 >"never made it to the List" post, (yes, "Lara" of the
 >kinda-like, sorta-like fast,)

She was nothing more than up-front with everyone about her
proactive action, John. And while she stands to the left of me
(if that�s possible <g>.), I can find no justification for the
sneering derision I find from you here.

She lost (by her own report) forty pounds, a place to live, and
a job for something that she believed in. I think she paid the
freight, assuming her veracity and accurate reporting. Her
proactive stance was something, even as the current *efforts*
you champion are for nothing, or just how much further along are
we now than five years ago when you and I hooked up in
cyberspace? Or 35 years ago when Hynek and Vallee wrote their
seminal books on the subject. Or 50 years ago when "something"
went down at Roswell.

 >you'll see that things started to
 >take an ugly turn. Not to mention a huge flying swan dive into
 >the 'deep end' of her empty concrete pool.

All things being equal John? You could be providing for _me_
this same kind of dismissing diagnosis. The irony is that she is
passionately interested in the same things that you identify in
the first paragraph. The situation does not necessarily impose
the social rigidity that your harsh evaluations imply. IOW?
She�s not in the deep end of an empty pool as much as she�s just
willing to wade out into a vaster ocean a little farther than
_you_ are. That�s not the deep end... that�s the beginning of
the "deep".

 >That poor woman, I
 >really do feel sorry for her. She is the epitome of pathos. She
 >is one angry puppy.

Pard? She�s got every right, reason, and authority to be angry.
We _all_ do, remember? And she�s willing to be a little more vocal
about it than anyone else is. And she�s staying within the
law... it doesn�t get any better than that.

 >You gotta read some of the private tirades
 >that she composes and sends to me privately. There's enough
 >material there to keep a whole team of Viennese shrinks busy for
 >years! No BS.

Hyperbole is always rather empty on reflection, John, and just
more irony given the male-centric worldview of those "Viennese
shrinks" you, too casually, employ. I�ve corresponded with her
briefly and she seems refreshingly sane to me (saner than
Shermer!), forgetting that I am perhaps no standard for even a
non-standard illustration of sanity, and forgetting also her
ardent enthusiasm and abundant passion. Efficacious use might be
made of both of those in the trying days to come.

 >I hear you Jan. Let's all just wait and see 'how far' it all
 >goes and how long they plan to keep it enforced. Things like
 >increased security at airports and at key locations/buildings is
 >fine by me. Armed soldiers asking citizens to produce
 >identification on the streets of my hometown? It had better be a
 >'temporary' condition is all I will say.

There�s no disagreement here, but we�ll complete the irony
pointing out that it will be persons of Lara�s caliber
(forgetting you and me)willing to throw themselves against the
officious ramparts implicit in a burgeoning police state we all
fear. She�ll do that in a strident effort to preserve those
evaporating liberties we watch going up in the still smoking
rubble of Manhattan, and she�ll do it, I'll bet, despite any
derision she encounters on UpDates.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his HostPros URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I le
ave
far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by scurrilous skepti-bunkies.








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   Oct > Oct 18

                        Re: AA... By The By - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 21:33:20 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:57:30 -0400
Subject: Re: AA... By The By - Tonnies


 >From: Chris Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: AA... By The By
 >Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 01:34:15 +1000

<snip>

 >I for some time, held the belief that the Greys were taking the
 >reproductive systems of cows and using this to grow the bodies
 >in. But seeing the Greys have no navel brings up the problem of
 >how did they get the nutrients needed into the body for it to
 >grow?

I'm not sure I'd call the being the the AA a "Gray". I'd qualify
it as (genetically) human, if it's an actual body. (When I think
of Grays, I think of the spindly bodied, big-headed entities
drawn by abductees. The AA being is a far cry from the "Gray"
ideal.)

 >I cannot tell all that much from the AA tape from the video
 >store, but seeing you have the CD, can you tell if there are
 >any scars on the Grey's abdomen?

None that I can make out. The body looks fairly blemishless
except for the leg-wound and a possible bruise on the head.


Mac Tonnies

(macbot@yahoo.com) 816-561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
http://mactonnies.com








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             Re: Security Precautions in New York City - Murray

From: Marty Murray <mmurray31@home.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 00:56:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:59:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City - Murray



 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City
 >Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:16:15 -0400

 >>Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:14:19 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City

 >>>From: "Jan Aldrich" <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Security Precautions in New York City
 >>>Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:16:42 -0400


Jan Aldrich wrote:

 >.....It is not sin to be
 >ignorant, however, to want to remain ignorant that is
 >inexcusable.

Howdy Jan & John!

Amen to that, Jan. Wiser words have seldom been spoken!


Take care,

Marty









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                           Message For Larry Hatch

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:14:24 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:01:10 -0400
Subject: Message For Larry Hatch


Hello Larry,

If Errol permits this is being sent via the List due to delivery
problems.

On 15th October when you posted your request for information
about Rajesh Kumar I posted two messages to you on 15th Oct. The
first was sent at approximately 12.40 UK time and the second at
19.07 UK time.

Both messages have bounced back to me within the last
12 hours, the reason given is:


     ------Transcript of session follows -------
     larry@larryhatch.net
     Remote connection was abruptly disconnected.


This might be a temporary glitch but I thought it best to let
you know in case other mail is bouncing to that address.


Best wishes,

John Hayes

webmaster@ufoinfo.com

UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Filer's Files and Oz Files.









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             Re: Security Precautions In New York City - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:06:35 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:03:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Security Precautions In New York City - Aldrich


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Security Precautions In New York City
 >Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 08:12:30 -0700

 >Hello, all.

 >Sunday evening, the History Channel had a Program "Secrets of
 >the Cold War" (I think) that explained the Nike/Ajax weapons
 >system. there were 19 or so Nike sites in and around the New
 >York area (and across the U.S.)

 >The Nike system was to be the last resort to knock down Russian
 >Bombers as they made their way to the U.S. - the Nike/Ajax were
 >armed with a Nuke that had a yield that was "Twice the power of
 >the Hiroshima Bomb." most folks didn't know that. Very few did.

 >My point is that there were some pretty spooky things we did/had
 >to protect the U.S. from attack. even in the 60's. (There was a
 >rumor that the Nike/Ajax had a modest anti missile capability -
 >I'd like to know more about that.)

 >While I don't pretend to know about all the precautions that are
 >going on in New York, The U.S. Coast Guard has a Cutter
 >Patrolling the Coos Bay channel and they are searching all the
 >(few) ships that come in here.

 >Yet, some idiot put a powdery substance on the doorknob of the
 >BLM offices-shutting them down - just for grins. I have a
 >problem with that. It could be called "aiding and abetting the
 >enemy" if you will. Hoaxers are a scourge on humanity anyway.
 >This isn't however, pie plates on a string. This is meant to
 >cause harm. We all are affected.
 >
 >Note: BLM is an Acronym for Bureau of Land Management. My
 >neighbor works at the Coos Bay office. Even here in the Outback
 >of Southern Oregon, we are affected.
 >
 >GT McCoy

Hi GT,

There were different models of the Nike missile:

Nike-Ajax was a liquid fueled rocket with conventional warheads,
that had a range of about 25 miles. It had to be close in to the
installations and cities it defended. Liquid fuel was a definite
problem. I think, but don't know for sure that it had some
capability to engage air breathing missiles and V-1 type
rockets.

Nike-Hercules had solid fuel propulsion, a range of about 85
miles against aircraft, a great maximum altitude than Nike-Ajax,
and a surface to surface mode with a range of over 100 miles. It
had both conventional and nuclear warheads of 2 kilotons (KT),
20KT and 40 KT. Nuclear warheads were for use against supersonic
jet formations. The idea was to destroy both the aircraft and
the nuclear weapons before they could be detonated. The surface
to surface mode gave this missile additional missions in Korea
and Europe.

Nike-Zeus, an anti-missile-missile, was never fully developed
due to the ABM treaty.

I have wondered about the lack of UFO reports from Nike sites
and their radars. Several UFO radar reports were within the
radius of Nike site, but there seem to be few reports in BB.
Perhaps they are somewhere in the Army records.

Hadn't thought of hoaxers as aiding and abetting the enemy, but
you hit the nail on the head, that is exactly what they are
doing.


Jan Aldrich








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   Oct > Oct 18

                       'The Highest Step In The World'

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:30:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:30:55 -0400
Subject: 'The Highest Step In The World'


Last week, I had the opportunity of previewing a very tasty
documentary that will run tonight at 9:00pm on the Discovery
Channel, here in Canada.

Its the first in a new series called 'Science Highway' by the
Toronto based Foolish Earthling Productions, written and
directed by Michael Lennick.

Michael Lennick and I go back to before 'The All-Night Show'
which featured Chuck The Security Guard and with which we were
both heavily involved.

The program I screened is titled 'The Highest Step In The World'
about the early pioneering work done by a group of scientists to
get the first human to over 100,000 feet - by balloon no less.
Its full of footage that, literally has never been seen before.

This might sound like a shameless plug for an old friend's new
project, but Michael Lennick has produced some damn fine work
over the years - which, those of you who saw his documentary,
earlier this year, on the making of Stanley Kubrick's 2001 -
will doubtlessly agree with.

No, the reason I'm suggesting you tune in to Discovery Canada
tonight at 9 is because in 'The Highest Step In The World' is a
mention of the infamous 'Roswell Crash Test Dummies', along with
footage of the parachuted dummies, by one of the scientists
involved, Duke Gildenberg. Dr. Bernard "Duke" Gildenberg is a
name you may be familiar with from the 'Skeptical Enquirer'
magazine.

Let me mention the station and time again - because the various
television magazines don't have the correct information listed.
Its tonight at nine [Eastern] on the Canadian Discovery Channel.
Its one of those 'must see' programs..... So do try and see it.


ebk









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              Re: Security Precautions in New York City - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:06:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:35:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City - Velez


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 18:48:13 +0600
 >Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City

 >>Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:14:19 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City

 >>>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Security Precautions in New York City
 >>>Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:16:42 -0400

 ><snip>


 >>Hiya Jan,

 >>If they weren't taking any extra security measures they would be
 >>remiss in their duty. The point I was "trying" to make was; we
 >>are being asked to give up a lot of our (taken for granted)
 >>freedoms right now. The 'reason' is legitimate. We all just need
 >>to stay on our toes and pay attention to "which" of these little
 >>liberties is being curtailed and which ones are to become a
 >>permanent condition. As you know, when the possibility of
 >>'abuse' exists in any system, there are always a few who will
 >>try to take advantage and see just how far they can go before
 >>being forced to back off by a public outcry.

 >We couldn't be in any more agreement  especially in these
 >extreme times. A nation as large and powerful as ours must be
 >able to bear relevant criticism of suspect actions or we are
 >nothing more than just another bully on the international
 >playground. This Rome of the 21st Century has additional
 >responsibilities when it can impose its will anywhere in the
 >world. Our agreement is so synchronous that the irony of your
 >following words is an unpleasant, ill-founded, and uncalled for
 >disappointment.

 >>I used strong language in my original. But, if you read Lara's
 >>"never made it to the List" post, (yes, "Lara" of the
 >>kinda-like, sorta-like fast,)

 >She was nothing more than up-front with everyone about her
 >proactive action, John. And while she stands to the left of me
 >(if thats possible <g>.), I can find no justification for the
 >sneering derision I find from you here.

 >She lost (by her own report) forty pounds, a place to live, and
 >a job for something that she believed in. I think she paid the
 >freight, assuming her veracity and accurate reporting.

Hi Alfred,

A huge "assumption" considering the source. But ...

You're right. I _was_ "sneering." And I shouldn't have stooped
to venting it in public. But in my own defense I will add that I
have not once responded with anger (which I have every right to)
to any of the _many_ nasty and truly convoluted tirades that she
has aimed at me personally and sent to me privately. I "leaked"
(if you will) my feelings of anger towards her for that and her
glaring presumptuousness on this public List. I could have been
more of a 'gentlemen' and held my mud.

Sorry Alfred. I just can't find it in myself to "admire" or
"respect" her as you do. From day one she has not demonstrated
or earned that kind of consideration from me or anyone else. I
meant it when I said I felt sorry for her. There is definitely
something seriously amiss with Lara. Because of the nature of
her personal problems I should not have mouthed off about her in
public.

My apologies to all concerned for allowing, what I consider to
be righteous - as in; she earned it - anger at her to get the
best of me. I know better - usually.

Once again you have been a good friend and have looked out for
me. What she needs is _serious_ help, not derision. It was
unfair of me to blast her that way in public.

Point taken.


Warmest regards,

John

                      A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                      www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                               johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
    "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









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                 Re: Security Precautions in New York City -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:09:15 +0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:37:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City -


 >From: Marty Murray <mmurray31@home.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City
 >Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 00:56:28 -0400

 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City
 >>Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:16:15 -0400

 >Jan Aldrich wrote:

 >>.....It is not sin to be
 >>ignorant, however, to want to remain ignorant that is
 >>inexcusable.

 >Howdy Jan & John!

 >Amen to that, Jan. Wiser words have seldom been spoken!


Given that the ignorance you pronounce upon is endemic to our
system, officiated by our institutions, bolstered by our
culture, encouraged by the media, and a pervasive invasion of
the very _process_ of our thinking, I'm twice blessed to be
exposed to two who so obviously have the dead-lock nut on the
universal conundrum.  Please, relieve us of this easily avoided
ignorance, an ignorance so obviously self inflicted... oh
teachers, oh leaders, oh holders of that guiding light of
enlightened process...


Guys -- your unwarranted hubris is showing...

Lehmberg@snowhill.com










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   Oct > Oct 18

              Re: Security Precautions In New York City - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:03:16 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:45:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Security Precautions In New York City - McCoy


 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Security Precautions In New York City
 >Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:06:35 -0400

 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Security Precautions In New York City
 >>Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 08:12:30 -0700

<snip>

 >>The Nike system was to be the last resort to knock down Russian
 >>Bombers as they made their way to the U.S. - the Nike/Ajax were
 >>armed with a Nuke that had a yield that was "Twice the power of
 >>the Hiroshima Bomb." most folks didn't know that. Very few did.

 >>My point is that there were some pretty spooky things we did/had
 >>to protect the U.S. from attack. even in the 60's. (There was a
 >>rumor that the Nike/Ajax had a modest anti missile capability -
 >>I'd like to know more about that.)

<snip>

 >>Yet, some idiot put a powdery substance on the doorknob of the
 >>BLM offices-shutting them down - just for grins. I have a
 >>problem with that. It could be called "aiding and abetting the
 >>enemy" if you will. Hoaxers are a scourge on humanity anyway.
 >>This isn't however, pie plates on a string. This is meant to
 >>cause harm. We all are affected.

 >>Note: BLM is an Acronym for Bureau of Land Management. My
 >>neighbor works at the Coos Bay office. Even here in the Outback
 >>of Southern Oregon, we are affected.

 >>GT McCoy

 >Hi GT,

 >There were different models of the Nike missile:

 >Nike-Ajax was a liquid fueled rocket with conventional warheads,
 >that had a range of about 25 miles. It had to be close in to the
 >installations and cities it defended. Liquid fuel was a definite
 >problem. I think, but don't know for sure that it had some
 >capability to engage air breathing missiles and V-1 type
 >rockets.

 >Nike-Hercules had solid fuel propulsion, a range of about 85
 >miles against aircraft, a great maximum altitude than Nike-Ajax,
 >and a surface to surface mode with a range of over 100 miles. It
 >had both conventional and nuclear warheads of 2 kilotons (KT),
 >20KT and 40 KT. Nuclear warheads were for use against supersonic
 >jet formations. The idea was to destroy both the aircraft and
 >the nuclear weapons before they could be detonated. The surface
 >to surface mode gave this missile additional missions in Korea
 >and Europe.

 >Nike-Zeus, an anti-missile-missile, was never fully developed
 >due to the ABM treaty.

 >I have wondered about the lack of UFO reports from Nike sites
 >and their radars. Several UFO radar reports were within the
 >radius of Nike site, but there seem to be few reports in BB.
 >Perhaps they are somewhere in the Army records.

 >Hadn't thought of hoaxers as aiding and abetting the enemy, but
 >you hit the nail on the head, that is exactly what they are
 >doing.

Thanks, Jan on setting straight the Nike system's capabilites.

Here in Coos Bay we have an odd assortment of friuts and nuts
ranging from Milita types to 'Earth Firsters" that are fully
capable of screwing up the system just to make a point. However,
the simple act of some Yahoo thinking he/she would pull a funny
by shutting down the BLM for a day, caused no end of problems
with the emergency sevices here.

IMHO it revealed weakness in the system-as llustrated by our
local newspaper, and while remote, it could be the bad guys were
watching. It wouldn't be the first time this happened. In 1942
Oregon was attacked, bombed, and shipping sunk by several
I-series submarines (better in some ways than the U-boats of the
period) although the U-boats got far more press. Then there were
the infamous Fugo balloons later on that killed a family near
Lakeview, Oregon.

GT McCoy











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   Oct > Oct 18

             Re: Security Precautions in New York City - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:17:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:47:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City - Sandow


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:09:15 +0600
 >Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City

 >Given that the ignorance you pronounce upon is endemic to our
 >system, officiated by our institutions, bolstered by our
 >culture, encouraged by the media, and a pervasive invasion of
 >the very _process_ of our thinking, I'm twice blessed to be
 >exposed to two who so obviously have the dead-lock nut on the
 >universal conundrum.  Please, relieve us of this easily avoided
 >ignorance, an ignorance so obviously self inflicted... oh
 >teachers, oh leaders, oh holders of that guiding light of
 >enlightened process...

 >Guys -- your unwarranted hubris is showing...


Who, then, do we go to for relief of this pervasive ignorance?
Who can tell us the elusive truth? Could it - just possibly - be
you?

Greg Sandow









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   Oct > Oct 18

                 Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:44:39 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:48:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzalez


 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:17:55 -0400

 >How many cases in Eddie's study
 >come from Brazil and Argentina? How many have been so seriously
 >debunked that you think they're hoaxes? If it's a high
 >percentage, I'd agree that there could be problems. But if it's
 >a low percentage, then maybe his study wouldn't be that badly
 >flawed, even by your critieria.

 >Which study did you mean, by the way? The original one from
 >1987?

 >One methodological note. I'm not sure why a few hoaxes makes
 >Eddie's study invalid. >

I am referring to the original one from 1987.

The real number of cases (counting all the cases of one
abductee, i.e. Betty Andreasson, only once) is 270. To myself
only 144 can be considered abductions properly, but he accepted
47 more (abductions without more details, psychic abductions,
voluntary entries). The rest are hoaxes (only 3!), contactees,
teleportations, etc.

 From the 270 total, Argentina and Brazil have 29 and 28 cases.
More than half of them are teleportations, etc. not abductions.
I have no time now, but if you are interested I will present my
data on this cases for your judgement next week.

The mixing of explained and not explained abductions is _not_
the reason why I think Bullard's work is flawed. That is just a
methodological question. A more serious flaw, for instance, is
that he determined one of his "stages" (Theophany) from only 6
cases! when there are more cases with a forced copulation (Vilas
Boas) that, on numbers alone, could merit an "stage" on
themselves.

I have just written a very long dissection of Bullard's work.
Unfortunately, it is in Spanish and I do not have time now to
translate it into English. If you dare....


Luis R. Gonzlez Manso









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                 Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:59:18 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:49:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzalez


 >From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@email.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 18:13:48 +0800
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction

 >I know
 >some of you dislike looking back in time for signs of the UFO
 >phenomenon (I'm not referring to Jerome Clark, of course, but I
 >am certainly referring to you, Luis) but history does not go
 >away.

Hi, Chris

You got me wrong. I enjoy as much as everybody else to look for
signs of the UFO phenomenon in the past. After all, as I defend
a psycho-sociological interpretation of it, there should be
precedents in history. If there were not, the PSH would be in
serious problems.

What I really dislike is to interpret those old reports from a
XX century point of view, centering in some details which remind
us of UFOs, but discarting all those that do not fit.

Your efforts are very interesting. I would really like to
publish some of them in our magazine, as I have insisted on you
several times..


Yours,

Luis R. Gonzlez









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                 Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:23:02 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:51:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzalez


 >Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:29:57 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction

 >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:17:23 +0200

 >Ok, so you admit going into this conversation/discussion with
 >your mind already made up that nothing 'physical' happened. Let
 >me ask you one if I may. Why should I engage you (or anyone
 >else) in a "lengthy" discussion about an event that you have
 >already prejudged?

Dear John,

I do not think to have prejudged any event, just your
interpretation of it. Everybody has his own preconceptions. Mine
is that the Universe and its inhabitants_ must_ be logical. The
abduction phenomena interpreted as the presence here on Earth of
multiple races of aliens abducting people in secrecy with highly
luminous UFOs is _not_ logical. So, to admit it (even in its
apparent illogicality) I must discard before any other
alternative.

Of course, you do not have_ any_ reason to explain once more
your experiences, and I really appreciate your help. If we
continue our exchange, I can only offer you my sincere appraisal
of the situation, my comments, etc. Probably at the end, we will
have to agree in our disagreement.

 >I don't see it as my job (or
 >responsibility) to try to convince anybody of anything.
 >I am standing up to be counted among those who are reporting
 >UFO/alien abduction. I do so because it has happened to me. I am
 >not under any obligation to endlessly debate/discuss it solely
 >because you cannot accept what is being reporting by so many of
 >your peers at face value.

You do not have any obligation to convince anybody of anything,
but if you are standing up to be counted as an alien abductee,
you must accept also that nobody else has any obligation to
believe you without enough evidence _from his own point of
view_.

 >You don't offer to "investigate," you offer to debate.
 >(...) It's a complete waste of time.

You must understand that it is quite difficult to investigate a
20 years old case from thousands of kilometers away, when I only
have your own recollections of it. The most I can achieve is to
point to any illogical element or aspect and to try to offer
alternatives.

 >>On principle, I do not accept at face value any UFO description,
 >>even if the witness knocked in its hull!
 >
 >Then why bother asking? It's like a cop telling a mugging
 >victim; "I don't believe you were robbed but, tell me your story
 >anyway so I can fill out a report." What's the point?

More precisely, my cop would have said (speaking of the UFO):
"You say you were robbed, but my experience is that many details
the people mugged describe are inaccurate, so please let us go
once more into your story to see any possible source of
misrecollection".

 >The object was stationary (hovering) over the roof of
 >the corner building.

 >My residence was on the same block, but down the street from the
 >building that the object was hovering over. I had to run about
 >3/4 of a city block to reach my house.

Sorry, I do not understand. Maybe a map would help. Referring to
your illustration, I assume you put yourself in the point where
you first saw the UFO. Which way did it move? To the right, to
the left or to the back of the drawing? Where was your home in
relation to the same image? Our city blocks are quite differents
of yours. How many meters?

 >The bleeding had stopped. There was a trail of blood going down
 >my face, past the corner of my mouth, down the side of my neck,
 >and the collar part of the tee-shirt had blood on it. The pillow
 >case and a small part of the cover sheet of the bed also had
 >blood smears on them.

 >The downward direction of the blood flow indicates that my body
 >must have been in a vertical position when the active bleeding
 >took place. (On my feet or sitting up) If I had bled while
 >laying on my back, and facing the ceiling, the blood trail on my
 >face would have gone over my cheek and towards my ear. If I had
 >been laying on my stomach, it would have accumulated on the
 >pillow mostly and there would not have been much anywhere else.
 >I bled while vertical or when I moved into a vertical position.
 >That bleeding did not happen when I suddenly sat up in bed
 >because the bleeding had already stopped when I awakened.

 From which nostril did you bleed? The same side that your
swollen eye or the opposite?

 >Yes, I was naked at the time of the (supposed) procedure. And I
 >really don't know if I was bleeding then. I was confronted with
 >the sight of a being that; did not resemble anything human; that
 >was holding some kind of wand/probe in his hand; and that was
 >coming toward me as it if it had purpose. I 'could have'
 >released the contents of my bowels for all I knew.

Let's see if I got it right.

You were dressed with a tee-shirt, covered by a short sleeve
shirt during theat night. According to your regression you were
totally naked when subjected to the nose intrusion and eye
operation. Later you awoke with only your tee-shirt and pants,
the rest of your clothes were in a heap besides the bed. The
collar part of the tee-shirt and the pillow were stained in
blood. The direction of the flow (accepting that the aliens did
not manipulate gravity this time -if you are "floating"
horizontally, where does any blood flow?-) shows that you bled
while vertical.

One problem. If the aliens were unable to prevent the bleeding
because of your nose intrusion, how could they have prevented
the bleeding of your posterior eye removal? I understand that
your were upright when the alien inserted his wand in your nose.
That was the proper moment to have a bleeding, but if you were
naked, you did not stained your tee-shirt then. Afterwards, they
made the eye-removal operation (horizontally?). When did they
put your tee-shirt and pants on, but no the rest of your clothes?

 >My wife was hospitalized for five days (about eight years ago)
 >for a sudden and very severe nose-bleed. The ENT specialist
 >(head of the ENT department at St. John's Hospital here in New
 >York) after performing his examination of the inside of her
 >head, asked both of us, her _and_me_ about her "surgery". My
 >wife hasn't ever had any "surgery" performed inside her head
 >either. Yet we have both (independently) been asked the same
 >question by _three_ different physicians.

I cannot judge how unusual is to ask such a question confronted
with a nose-bleed, but if they had some signs pointing in such
direction (scars...) surely it must be in your medical
historial. Maybe they did not write anything in your case, but a
5-day stay in a hospital should be properly justified. You
stopped short of explaining the mystery! If a physician asks me
an unsual question, I would just question him myself why did he
asked that, if he has any signs, etc. Maybe they were just
probing around, discarding possibilities

 >I have noted on more than one occasion (on-List and to Peter
 >himself) that he was just a bit 'selective' about leaving out
 >some details that I thought were important and supported my
 >interpretation of the events more than his

Up to now, I have found Peter's exposition of your case quite
accurate. Can you give me some examples of his selection bias?

 >It was a jolting experience to read the facts/details/reports of
 >others that were _identical_ to my own. Strangers were talking
 >about things that I thought had _only_ happened to me. Things I
 >would never have spoken aloud to anyone for fear of being
 >thought of as "crazy." Yes, it was a real eye opener to hear my
 >deepest and most secret memories coming from the lips of
 >complete strangers.

So, are you are saying that you_did_ have conscious recall of
alien beings and abductions, before reading "Missing Time", or
just vague recollections or uneasiness like Steven Kilburn? In
other words, in 1981 Hopkins spoke about 5 types of abductions:

Type 1 - general recall of portions of the full scenario.
Type 2 - UFO sighting + missing time. No conscious recall
          of the on-board experience
Type 3 - Bedroom visitors. No ufo.
Type 4 - Only a time-lapse or a dislocation.
Type 5 - Vague, ephemeral clues.

Which Type were you? I will say Type 2.

 >I am _extremely_ careful about reporting
 >precisely what transpired. Nothing more, nothing less. I know
 >how important it is for me to present _only_ the facts so that
 >any independent person/researcher can formulate their own
 >thoughts/opinions without having to sift through any
 >"embellishments" or spurious content. I report the details of my
 >experiences as if I was reporting them to a cop. Siempre.

You think so. Everybody thinks so. But, as the study of
"flashbulb" memories (where were you on September 11 attack?)
have shown, you may be mistaken. Try to locate your very first
deposition about your incident and compare it with your actual
recollections. Maybe you will be surprised.


Yours,

Luis R. Gonzlez








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   Oct > Oct 18

                  Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Wilson

From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson@alienjigsaw.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:46:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:54:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Wilson


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:18:54 +0200
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzalez

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:47:58 -0500

 >>>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:14:55 +0200


 >Jerry,

 >Thanks, I have always consider myself a sceptic. Now I know that
 >I am a debunker. OK.

<snip>

Jerry Replied:

 >>To the second question you raise: of course not. One doesn't
 >>have to engage in sweeping speculation to dismiss the LeRoy
 >>story, which I personally and conclusively debunked in 1976 (my
 >>article on the subject appearing in the February 1977 issue of
 >>Fate), as you may not know.

 >>To the third, Adamski was a hoaxer and, unless you have clear
 >>and specific evidence showing Katharina Wilson (a manifestly
 >>honest woman in my observation, whatever the true nature of her
 >>experience) to be the same, you're simply playing a rhetorical
 >>game. Unless you believe apples are in fact oranges, their two
 >>names should not be appearing in the same sentence.

Thank you Jerry, for your comment above. I appreciate you sharing
this observation about me publicly.

Luis R. Gonzalez also wrote:

 >I did know that you personally debunked the LeRoy story, and I
 >also share your opinions on Adamski and Katharina Wilson... that
 >precisely was the reason why their names appeared in the same
 >sentence. Mrs. Wilson' story is even more outlandish than
 >Adamski's. Why must I believe her without enough evidence? Just
 >because she _is_ honest?

What I have shared with the public in my books and other
writings is the truth as best as I can describe it. I believed I
was doing something good when I wrote my books. I have always
believed that the truth would one day prevail and perhaps if I
live long enough, I will see that truth and the truth that so
many abductees have shared with the research community and the
public, prevail.

 >Many honest people had believed in wrong things. Surely, even I
 >believe in wrong things. To me, the paranormal is like a slide,
 >when you begin to accept things without enough evidence, you
 >cannot stop: first, isolated incidents, then a lifetime of
 >abductions, after not one but several kinds of aliens, then
 >MILABs or wanderers or walks-in. And the fact that some hoaxers
 >or deluded persons have been able to tell stories very similar
 >to those told by honest people, should made us cautious.

You are correct to be cautious and many, many researchers in
American ufology are cautious. It has been shown that in the
majority of researched abduction cases, abductions do occur over
the lifetime of an abductee and that is the case with me.

It appears - rather obviously so - that prior to Hopkins and
Jacobs et al, there were other alien types being reported
besides the "greys," so of course, not all of the beings
described by abductees

are the same.

MILABs are another issue. A very controversial issue. An issue
that I have admitted to having trouble accepting or
understanding. I am a patriotic person and have been all of my
life, and it disturbs me greatly to think some small faction of
our military may be involved in the abductions of humans and/or
in interrogating abductees.

I do not know anything about "wanderers" and know very little
about "walk-ins." I have not written about "wanderers" or
"walk-ins" and have not experienced anything like this.

I hope this helps to clear things up as far as my case and a
possible hoax is concerned. Believe me, if I had a choice, being
an abductee is the last thing in the world I would choose to be.
The public has no idea of what we risk by telling the truth
about our experiences. You cannot know how hard it is to "fit
in" when people know what you are or what you "claim" to be, as
some like to infer.

The last point I would like to clear up is the "Dark Side of the
Moon" experience that was referred to. I would include the
journal entry, but it would make this posting very long and
would probably be quite boring to many people. I will quote what
I wrote in my book as an introduction to the journal entry and a
paragraph about how I felt about it afterward.

"I believe the implications for this next visit are even more
incredible. Although it should have been somewhat disturbing to
me, it did not make me feel the way I would have imagined it
would if I had heard this from another abductee."

I used the term "visit," not abduction. Clearly, I do not view
this as a typical abduction. Also, the second sentence I hope,
indicates that had I heard this from another abductee, I don't
know what I would have thought. Perhaps I would have thought it
"very strange" or "bizarre." Today, since I know more about the
phenomenon, perhaps I would have interpreted this as what
Bullard describes as an "otherworldly journey" that abductees
sometimes experience.

Some might see the visit as a vision and that is perhaps the way
it reads. However, I could feel the ground beneath my feet and I
could feel the weapon in my hands. In other words, there were
tactile sensations and with a vision, there are no tactile
sensations, at least for me.

After the journal entry I wrote:

"When I use the term 'dark side of the moon' [which is where I
was told I was by the beings who were with me] in my mind it
refers to the side of the moon that never faces the Earth. It
has nothing to do with where the sun does and does not shine. I
have no way of knowing which meaning the Beings who told me this
were implying. Do I really believe I was on the dark side of the
moon? The answer is yes, if I was in fact on a moon. However, I
do not believe I was on the dark side of our moon. If I was on
the dark side of our moon, then this base has to exist in
another dimension. If it exists in our dimension, then why would
the astronauts and cosmonauts have withheld this information
from the rest of the world?"

"The Alien Jigsaw" pp 114-115


I would like to remind Mr. Gonzalez and everyone else, that
just because the aliens tell an abductee something, it does not
mean they are telling us the truth. They could have been lying
to me when they told me I was on the dark side of the moon. Then
again, they could have been telling me the truth. I have no
proof of what they told me - other than the never ending stories
about there being a base on the moon or aliens on the moon or
what-have-you.

Until this experience, I never believed for an instant that
there was a base on our moon or extraterrestrials there. Now, I
suppose like some people, I'm not quite sure what to believe.
Maybe, in the end, that is the intention of some of the alien
beings we have come into contact with. They want to do what they
need to do, but they will leave us with more questions than
answers. Perhaps that is the way they cover their tracks and
protect themselves.

It seems to be working.


Thanks all

K. Wilson









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   Oct > Oct 18

                   Re: Probing Abduction Classics - Wilson

From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson@alienjigsaw.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:47:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:55:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Probing Abduction Classics - Wilson


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:16:40 +0200
 >To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Probing Abduction Classics - Gonzalez

 >>From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Probing Abduction Classics
 >>Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 11:24:17 -0600

 >>Thus, the Allagash abduction incident is basically the same.
 >>Each person experienced the abduction from their own
 >>perspective, yet the baseline remains constant. There is
 >>absolutely no diagreement among the experiencers that the event
 >>itself happened. To look at the incident by looking at it from a
 >>group perspective leads to static and nothing is really learned.
 >>Rational methodology is to confirm the baseline and then look at
 >>the personal scenarios as independent units that support the
 >>baseline.

 >Sorry, I disagree, Wendy.

 >The witnesses only agree to have seem something strange (a UFO)
 >and an alleged "missing time" based in the recollection of a
 >camp fire very quickly extinguised.  Then, some of them suffered
 >others incidents, contacted Fowler and under hipnosis (some of
 >them more relunctantly than others) an abduction surfaces. Even
 >if we accept that they did not discussed the regressions between
 >them, Mr. Fowler was present in all the sessions and could
 >involuntarily guide their recollections.

 >What I am saying is that, nowadays (and even at the beginning,
 >remember Alvin Lawson's research), what you called the
 >"baseline" can be generated from unconscious imaginery, and the
 >only way we have to validate them is comparing the individual
 >scenarios. In the Allagash case, they did _not_ fit. The number
 >of digits is a very simple variable that _should_ fit, but the
 >differences are much more important.

 >If you cannot rely in the personal recollections of each witness
 >about what happened to him, you cannot rely in anything. But in
 >the Allagash case, the procedures described by each of the
 >witnesses to have happen on himself did _not_ coincide with what
 >the others saw happening to him. How can that be, if there is
 >the most minimun level of objetive reality to their
 >recollections?

 >Yours,

 >Luis R. Gonzlez


I agree with what Wendy states in her paragraph above. I also
agree with some of what Mr. Gonzalez says. I do not, however,
understand this statement:

"... what you called the "baseline" can be generated from
unconscious imaginery."

I think this oversimplifies the entire topic of discussion. If
everyone can come up with a baseline for an experience on an
unconscious level, then we would have many more people claiming
alien abduction, not to mention other types of phenomena.
Wouldn't  _everyone_ be experiencing some form of alien
abduction?

I don't see how oversimplifying this subject is going to get us
to the truth. We are human beings and in an investigation, we
have to begin "somewhere." The most logical place to begin it
seems, is with what people saw or remember occurring at a crime
scene, from an experience, etc.

Something related to this topic, I believe, is the research by
(the late) Dr. Karla Turner. I cannot post entire articles

here - at least I don't think I can - but her research findings,
although perhaps controversial, are worth reading and reviewing.
I think it will help people understand what we are truly facing
in trying to understand an alien species.

In addition, it seems to me that we are not dealing with one
extraterrestrial species. Oversimplifying ET phenomena and
individuals' experiences may make it easier to digest and fit
into our sometimes preconceived theories about what is really
going on, but it does not and will not lead us to the truth.

-- K. Wilson

"Encounter Phenomena Defy Set Pattern: All Data Must Be
Considered" By Karla Turner, Ph.D.


http://www.alienjigsaw.com/Part_II/ktdefysetpattern.html


"Alien Abductions In the Gingerbread House"
By Karla Turner, Ph.D.

_Please note her "Abduction Checklist"_


http://www.alienjigsaw.com/Part_II/ktgingerbread.html

For articles by other researchers see:

UFO and Abductions Researchers' Page


http://www.alienjigsaw.com/Part_II/research.html








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   Oct > Oct 18

                             Alberto Sanmartin?

From: Gary Anthony <garyant@mithrand.karoo.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:52:28 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:57:21 -0400
Subject: Alberto Sanmartin?


Hi List,

Does anyone know where I can obtain a copy of a rare tome called
'O Embaixador das Estrelas' By Alberto Sanmartin? (Any language
version will do). Suggestions welcome.


Best Regards

Gary Anthony









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                     Re: Message For Larry Hatch - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:18:47 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 17:32:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Message For Larry Hatch - Hatch


 >Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:14:24 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
 >Subject: Message For Larry Hatch


 >On 15th October when you posted your request for information
 >about Rajesh Kumar I posted two messages to you on 15th Oct. The
 >first was sent at approximately 12.40 UK time and the second at
 >19.07 UK time.

 >Both messages have bounced back to me within the last
 >12 hours, the reason given is:

 >     ------Transcript of session follows -------
 >     larry@larryhatch.net
 >     Remote connection was abruptly disconnected.

 >This might be a temporary glitch but I thought it best to let
 >you know in case other mail is bouncing to that address.



Hello John, thanks for the heads-up!


If any emails to me bounce, its almost certainly due to my
dial-up ISP (some struggling remains of www.jps.net).   For now,
*****@larryhatch.net is being redirected thru jps to I can
receive it.

I will send myself a few test messages! I can still get messages
at larryhat@jps.net for now, but prefer use of the new domain
unless it bounces of course.


Best

- Larry









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                  Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 17:37:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 17:59:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Sandow


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:44:39 +0200

 >I have just written a very long dissection of Bullard's work.
 >Unfortunately, it is in Spanish and I do not have time now to
 >translate it into English. If you dare....

Luis,

Thanks for your answer, and the interesting points it raises.
I'd love to read your study, but unfortunately my Spanish is
just about non-existent. I wonder if Eddie reads Spanish....


Greg Sandow









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   Oct > Oct 18

                Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 18:02:11 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:46:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Mortellaro


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:23:02 +0200

 >>Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:29:57 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction

 >>>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:17:23 +0200

 >>Ok, so you admit going into this conversation/discussion with
 >>your mind already made up that nothing 'physical' happened. Let
 >>me ask you one if I may. Why should I engage you (or anyone
 >>else) in a "lengthy" discussion about an event that you have
 >>already prejudged?

 >Dear John,

 >I do not think to have prejudged any event, just your
 >interpretation of it. Everybody has his own preconceptions. Mine
 >is that the Universe and its inhabitants_ must_ be logical. The
 >abduction phenomena interpreted as the presence here on Earth of
 >multiple races of aliens abducting people in secrecy with highly
 >luminous UFOs is _not_ logical. So, to admit it (even in its
 >apparent illogicality) I must discard before any other
 >alternative.

<snip>

 >>I am _extremely_ careful about reporting
 >>precisely what transpired. Nothing more, nothing less. I know
 >>how important it is for me to present _only_ the facts so that
 >>any independent person/researcher can formulate their own
 >>thoughts/opinions without having to sift through any
 >>"embellishments" or spurious content. I report the details of my
 >>experiences as if I was reporting them to a cop. Siempre.

 >You think so. Everybody thinks so. But, as the study of
 >"flashbulb" memories (where were you on September 11 attack?)
 >have shown, you may be mistaken. Try to locate your very first
 >deposition about your incident and compare it with your actual
 >recollections. Maybe you will be surprised.

Dear Luis, List, Errol;

This post is from my own perspective, wishing to set the record
straight on the issue of the skeptics' point of view. Luis, in
your post you said that you and John (I interpret that as you
and all perceived abductees, hence my response), that you must
finally agree to disagree. I agree, to an extent.

The skeptic, as opposed to the skeptibunker, has every right in
the world to attempt to determine another reason for the
perceptions of the abductee. My lesson in this regard, is only
recently learned. Memory is a strange thing to understand. In a
conversation I had recently with someone who is also a skeptic,
I was asked questions which were quite valid. The only response
I had was, "It is a real memory which persists for more than
half a century." The reply was, "How do you know?" Well, I know
because nothing of these snapshot memories has changed for 55
years. However I am unable to prove a thing.

I too, agreed to disagree, with the person with whom I spoke,
for more than two hours. Except for one important detail. As a
child, I drew the classic UFO, stick figures of the "little
doctors" I met, and more, and did this between 1945 and 1946.
The proof of this rests in a vault kept by our family attorney.
The drawings are signed by my Mom, dated, and on them she wrote,
"Jamey ... " and gave the date it was drawn ... only the year on
some of them.

So proof of sorts exists within my family. Witness the
verification of my recall by what my parents recall. To add to
this, the drawings were made prior to Roswell. Prior to TV since
we did not have one until 1950, and prior to my reading anything
(certainly not at age three and four) from any book or magazine.
There were no UFO type literature before Roswell and even had
there been any, I did not see it.

If you wish to view at least one of these, they may be found on
the Jeff Rense site archives. The URL is:

http://www.rense.com/general4/three.htm

There, you will see a drawing I made in 1946, as notated by my
Mother. The book is nearly 3/4 complete. I hope to publish in
the early part of 2002.

Proof positive? No. Truth absolute? No. Truth? Maybe. My truth,
and the truth of others who have had experiences? Absolutely. So
you see, Luis, my truth is mine. Behold your truth. It is yours.
We should agree only on one thing. The possibility exists that
we have misinterpreted and the possibility exists that we have
indeed experienced.

I also uploaded several copies on UpDates.  I urge you to see
beyond the view of the skeptic and at least do one thing more if
you are capable. This "thing" will place you properly in the
category of "skeptic" and not "Skpetibunker." And that would be
to agree as to the possibility that such UFO abduction scenario
may be truth. Maybe.  If you cannot agree on the possibility,
however remote, then I am sorry to say that you are not a
skeptic.


With respect,

Jim Mortellaro








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   Oct > Oct 19

                 Re: Security Precautions in New York City -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:04:05 +0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:21:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City -


 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City
 >Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:17:02 -0400

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:09:15 +0600
 >>Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City

 >>Given that the ignorance you pronounce upon is endemic to our
 >>system, officiated by our institutions, bolstered by our
 >>culture, encouraged by the media, and a pervasive invasion of
 >>the very _process_ of our thinking, I'm twice blessed to be
 >>exposed to two who so obviously have the dead-lock nut on the
 >>universal conundrum. Please, relieve us of this easily avoided
 >>ignorance, an ignorance so obviously self inflicted... oh
 >>teachers, oh leaders, oh holders of that guiding light of
 >>enlightened process...

 >>Guys -- your unwarranted hubris is showing...

 >Who, then, do we go to for relief of this pervasive ignorance?

OK. You seemingly imply that there is _no_ pervasive ignorance,
or if there is we shouldn't _do_ anything about it. Our
institutions are forthcoming, our government is beyond reproach,
our schools produce an abundance of critical thinkers, and our
corporate media is not, largely, the unctuous collection of
two-dollar whores that I suspect it to be. In for a penny, in
for a pound, Mr. Sandow.

Forget your irritation with me, if you can, and tell me what's
on your New York mind. I'm not above learning something if
you've something to teach. And if convinced that I'm out of line
I'll cop to it immediately.

 >Who can tell us the elusive truth?

Well, apparently, as I indicated above (plainly if not a little
sarcastically), we could start with the two gentlemen I had
originally replied to. They seemed on the path to an
enlightenment you may appreciate, even if it _was_ a little self
styled, complacently arrogant, and obstinately officious. Would
_you_ care to take a crack at it? You've some thoughts on it,
I'm sure.

 >Could it - just possibly - be you?

Anything's possible, _however_ unlikely, Mr. Sandow. And I
wouldn't kick _me_ out of that bed for eating salty crackers,
but after parsing the above reply I can't see where I even
remotely imply your, rather oily, assertion. Maybe my spot on
assessment of the media fudged your drawers a little bit.
"Musta' hit pretty close to the mark to get [you] so riled up,
eh Chewy"? <g>.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
www.alienview.net








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   Oct > Oct 19

                        Re: AA... By The By - Tophar

From: Chris Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:32:33 +1000
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:08:18 -0400
Subject: Re: AA... By The By - Tophar


 >Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 21:33:20 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: AA... By The By
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>From: Chris Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: AA... By The By
 >>Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 01:34:15 +1000

 ><snip>

 >I'm not sure I'd call the being in the AA flim a "Gray". I'd qualify
 >it as (genetically) human, if it's an actual body. (When I think
 >of Grays, I think of the spindly bodied, big-headed entities
 >drawn by abductees. The AA being is a far cry from the "Gray"
 >ideal.)

Any alien that uses filters over its eyes are classified as a
Grey by me. This filter is used I do believe to help them see
inside their craft due to the intense light given off from the
power source they use. As we have come to know, all reports of
Greys and their craft are associated with very bright light
sources, imitating from with-in the craft.

I could rave on for days about theories behind why they don’t shield
the power source/reactor.  But I will spare list members from such a
long bombardment, maybe just a short one .

Greys may well have found a way to cross human genes with plants
genes. Doing this has its up side; planets do very well around magnetic
fields and in low gravity environments. They also don’t need the same
kinds of food we do, they could get away with a liquid diet. Which would
also sort out the problem of storing food as it would be much easier to
store liquid than a side of beef in space.

They is some evidence to say they could have done this crossed
genetics creating of hybrids from planet and human genes. The
light source itself, something a hybrid would need for
photosynthesis. The reports of white dust in the ships, a result
of the waste from the hybrids, as they wouldn’t go to the
toilet like us, instead they would get rid of their waste the
same way a planet does, through the outer tissue and it would be
white like a planets. The green blood, same as a planets and
like this someone sent me >“Some abductees have reported
seeing them immersing themselves in nutrient tanks.”< This is
not such a hard thing to believe if they are plant cross hybrids
as this would help clean out the pours ECT. Pot planets love a
good dunking every now and again it does wanders for the good
old house planet.

There is also some evidence in the AA flim, which could support
the hybrid planet theory as well. The kind of organs they took
out of the alien ECT. Also how did they know it was just a
covering over the eye and that the whole eye itself wasn’t
black?

Anyway, one can see why this damn AA flim has its hooks in me,
either it is a real grey or the best hoax ever made? They have
given attention to such small details in this damn flim, it
makes it so hard to right off as a hoax. Well it does for me.

Until it is proven an hoax, is just keeps on going on.

Tophar







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   Oct > Oct 19

                       Re: Rendlesham Radiation - Hale

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:49:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:10:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Rendlesham Radiation - Hale


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Rendlesham Radiation
 >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:35:18 +0100

 >Regarding:

 >>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 23:56:51 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Rendlesham: Landing Deposited 10x Background


Sorry did I hear that Rendlesham Forest was one of the most
convincing cases of UFO Visitation on this planet?

Or was it a case of dodgy machines not working with US Army
Staff?


Roy..








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                  Re: Probing Abduction Classics - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: 19 Oct 2001 09:51:47 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:09:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Probing Abduction Classics - Hamilton


 >Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:47:27 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson@alienjigsaw.com>
 >Subject: Probing Abduction Classics

 >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:16:40 +0200
 >>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Probing Abduction Classics - Gonzalez

 >>>From: Wendy Connors <projectsign@worldnet.att.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Probing Abduction Classics
 >>>Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 11:24:17 -0600

 >>>Thus, the Allagash abduction incident is basically the same.
 >>>Each person experienced the abduction from their own
 >>>perspective, yet the baseline remains constant. There is
 >>>absolutely no diagreement among the experiencers that the event
 >>>itself happened. To look at the incident by looking at it from a
 >>>group perspective leads to static and nothing is really learned.
 >>>Rational methodology is to confirm the baseline and then look at
 >>>the personal scenarios as independent units that support the
 >>>baseline.

 >>Sorry, I disagree, Wendy.

 >>The witnesses only agree to have seem something strange (a UFO)
 >>and an alleged "missing time" based in the recollection of a
 >>camp fire very quickly extinguised. Then, some of them suffered
 >>others incidents, contacted Fowler and under hipnosis (some of
 >>them more relunctantly than others) an abduction surfaces. Even
 >>if we accept that they did not discussed the regressions between
 >>them, Mr. Fowler was present in all the sessions and could
 >>involuntarily guide their recollections.

 >>What I am saying is that, nowadays (and even at the beginning,
 >>remember Alvin Lawson's research), what you called the
 >>"baseline" can be generated from unconscious imaginery, and the
 >>only way we have to validate them is comparing the individual
 >>scenarios. In the Allagash case, they did _not_ fit. The number
 >>of digits is a very simple variable that _should_ fit, but the
 >>differences are much more important.

 >>If you cannot rely in the personal recollections of each witness
 >>about what happened to him, you cannot rely in anything. But in
 >>the Allagash case, the procedures described by each of the
 >>witnesses to have happen on himself did _not_ coincide with what
 >>the others saw happening to him. How can that be, if there is
 >>the most minimun level of objetive reality to their
 >>recollections?

 >I agree with what Wendy states in her paragraph above. I also
 >agree with some of what Mr. Gonzalez says. I do not, however,
 >understand this statement:

 >"... what you called the "baseline" can be generated from
 >unconscious imaginery."

 >I think this oversimplifies the entire topic of discussion. If
 >everyone can come up with a baseline for an experience on an
 >unconscious level, then we would have many more people claiming
 >alien abduction, not to mention other types of phenomena.
 >Wouldn't _everyone_ be experiencing some form of alien
 >abduction?

 >I don't see how oversimplifying this subject is going to get us
 >to the truth. We are human beings and in an investigation, we
 >have to begin "somewhere." The most logical place to begin it
 >seems, is with what people saw or remember occurring at a crime
 >scene, from an experience, etc.

 >Something related to this topic, I believe, is the research by
 >(the late) Dr. Karla Turner. I cannot post entire articles

 >here - at least I don't think I can - but her research findings,
 >although perhaps controversial, are worth reading and reviewing.
 >I think it will help people understand what we are truly facing
 >in trying to understand an alien species.

 >In addition, it seems to me that we are not dealing with one
 >extraterrestrial species. Oversimplifying ET phenomena and
 >individuals' experiences may make it easier to digest and fit
 >into our sometimes preconceived theories about what is really
 >going on, but it does not and will not lead us to the truth.

I have been hesitant to enter this discussion on abduction even
though I did some investigation in this area starting in 1976.
Abductees were not plentiful at that time.

My finding is that the UFO subject is not composed of simple or
straightforward incidents, but is a complex tapestry of events
subject to interpretations by investigators, researchers,
abductees, skeptics, and onlookers and that this is something to
be realized. We may not be dealing with one ET species or even
entities that have an ET origin in all cases as it is commonly
understood, but to discuss these entities and learn anything
about them all it first must be interpreted as a real event
generated outside of the psyche or imaginal world of the
experiencer of the event or we are then just discussing a
psychological or psychic anomaly that has no real substance
outside the mind of the perceiver.

Of course, we will then have to determine whether the entities
seen gathering soil samples near a landed craft are
representative of the real and physical operators of the craft
and switch our focus to these cases, or are these also
confabulations by unreliable witnesses. If so, then who or what
is the guiding intelligence behind the UFO Captain's chair?

I think that reports concerning CE-4s have all been lumped
together and judged as some monolithic concept such as "Greys
from UFOs abducting humans and producing hybrids" when
individual cases may deviate from the standard scenario as given
by Jacobs and others. Also lumped into this pile of cases may be
many that truly have psychological or psychic origins,
especially those that are of the 'vivid dream' category.

Remembering that the classic Betty and Barney Hill case, and
those outdoor UFO close encounters with similar elements was not
a 'bedroom' case, not that some bedroom abductions may be more
than dreams, we still have a number of cases that have elements
that are not easily amenable to psychological interpretations.


Bill Hamilton








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   Oct > Oct 19

                             Re: AA... By The By

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:30:45 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:12:02 -0400
Subject: Re: AA... By The By


 >From: Chris Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: AA... By The By
 >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:32:33 +1000

 >>Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 21:33:20 -0700 (PDT)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: AA... By The By
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>From: Chris Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: AA... By The By
 >>>Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 01:34:15 +1000

 >>I'm not sure I'd call the being in the AA flim a "Gray". I'd qualify
 >>it as (genetically) human, if it's an actual body. (When I think
 >>of Grays, I think of the spindly bodied, big-headed entities
 >>drawn by abductees. The AA being is a far cry from the "Gray"
 >>ideal.)

 >Any alien that uses filters over its eyes are classified as a
 >Grey by me. This filter is used I do believe to help them see
 >inside their craft due to the intense light given off from the
 >power source they use. As we have come to know, all reports of
 >Greys and their craft are associated with very bright light
 >sources, imitating from with-in the craft.

 >I could rave on for days about theories behind why they don’t shield
 >the power source/reactor.  But I will spare list members from such a
 >long bombardment, maybe just a short one .

 >Greys may well have found a way to cross human genes with plants
 >genes. Doing this has its up side; planets do very well around magnetic
 >fields and in low gravity environments. They also don’t need the same
 >kinds of food we do, they could get away with a liquid diet. Which would
 >also sort out the problem of storing food as it would be much easier to
 >store liquid than a side of beef in space.

 >They is some evidence to say they could have done this crossed
 >genetics creating of hybrids from planet and human genes. The
 >light source itself, something a hybrid would need for
 >photosynthesis. The reports of white dust in the ships, a result
 >of the waste from the hybrids, as they wouldn’t go to the
 >toilet like us, instead they would get rid of their waste the
 >same way a planet does, through the outer tissue and it would be
 >white like a planets. The green blood, same as a planets and
 >like this someone sent me >“Some abductees have reported
 >seeing them immersing themselves in nutrient tanks.”< This is
 >not such a hard thing to believe if they are plant cross hybrids
 >as this would help clean out the pours ECT. Pot planets love a
 >good dunking every now and again it does wanders for the good
 >old house planet.

 >There is also some evidence in the AA flim, which could support
 >the hybrid planet theory as well. The kind of organs they took
 >out of the alien ECT. Also how did they know it was just a
 >covering over the eye and that the whole eye itself wasn’t
 >black?

 >Anyway, one can see why this damn AA flim has its hooks in me,
 >either it is a real grey or the best hoax ever made? They have
 >given attention to such small details in this damn flim, it
 >makes it so hard to right off as a hoax. Well it does for me.

 >Until it is proven an hoax, is just keeps on going on.


Chris,

Coulda, maybe, possibly... doesn't cut it for me. This sort of
groundless (or should I say "ungrounded") speculation is
virtually meaningless. I can easily speculate in equal and
opposite directions, so what does it prove?

In some trivial sense, it may be accurate to say that "anything
is possible." But in the real world some things are a damn sight
more likely than others. Then when you arbitrarily, and
contradictory to well-established facts, change the meaning of
"Gray" to suit yourself, you are indulging in some very
convoluted reasoning.


Dick









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   Oct > Oct 19

                       A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'!

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:28:31 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:17:17 -0400
Subject: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'!


Kate Smith used to sing, "I'll be looking at the moon, but I'll
be seeing you!" Which is what people say about the experiencer.
The perceived experiencer. We are looking at Pelicans (Swamp
Gas, Venus, etc) but are seeing Alien en tittles. Sorry. Did I
capitalize that? Must'a been some sort of Freudian thing.

Anyway... the thing I cannot understand is why the skeptic must
opine with such certitude, that the phenom absolutely positively
_must_ be due to something else. Which, by the way, is the exact
moment when the skeptic becomes, as if by Majestic Twelve, a
skeptibunker! Ever notice that? Huh?

There is something terribly wrong with any perceived abductee
who cannot tolerate a skeptic. By the same token, there is
something terribly wrong with any skeptic who cannot admit, even
to the remote possibility that the phenomena is real, i.e., the
skeptibunker.

What are you?

The only difference between a skeptic and an experiencer is that
small percentage. The one which says it is _that_ possible or
_that_ unlikely.

'_That_' number is anywhere between one and five percent points.
My mind tells me that the likelihood of the phenomena _not_
being possible is about two percent. To the skeptic, well, that
percentage point, that two percent, says that is the possibility
of the phenomena being real. See? We are really on the same
frequency. It's just that the method of modulation differs a
bit.

I thought it would be of some benefit to all concerned, for this
to be said. Which is to say, I have this to say about that.
Again. 'Cause I did say this about that before. But some of you
people just don't listen. Here goes... yet again.....

All which a perceived abductee must say to be acceptable to the
skeptic is, "I allow for the possibility, however remote in my
view, that what happened to me might not be what I think
happened." That is to say, I might not really have been abducted
by that uggaly little slant-eyed and hugely misproportioned
little son of a bitch.

And all which the skeptic must say, in order to be acceptable to
the sane perceived abductee is, "I allow for the possibility,
however remote, that what happened to you might be possible the
way you perceived it.

Damn I'm good! Ain't I? Come on guys. This is not the answer to
the question of God the Universe or Everything. It ain't the
equation Einstein and Hawking are looking for... the unified
field theory. It's just common freaking sense. And it solves a
multitude of problems with understanding. Had I known that the
homosexual tendencies which I don't have proved beyond a shadow
of a doubt that I was really _NOT_ and abductee, well, heck, I
would not have gotten so ticked off at Kevin Randel.. Randle,
sorry. Randle et. Al, sorry.

And if Fill Class, that maroon of the 'reality' sector, told me
that he allowed for the possibility that I really was abducted
by aliens, well, I'd probally choke on my Gripple and fall off
my Pia Doll. But I would respect the person. Lacking manhood at
this particular moment in time, I shall use that term...
"person."

Thank you and good nocht. Mit eine Gluvine (fresh of course), I
leave you.


Morty








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             Re: Security Precautions in New York City - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 11:07:36 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:21:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City - Sandow


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:04:05 +0600
 >Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City

 >>From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City
 >>Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:17:02 -0400

 >>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:09:15 +0600
 >>>Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City

 >>>Given that the ignorance you pronounce upon is endemic to our
 >>>system, officiated by our institutions, bolstered by our
 >>>culture, encouraged by the media, and a pervasive invasion of
 >>>the very _process_ of our thinking, I'm twice blessed to be
 >>>exposed to two who so obviously have the dead-lock nut on the
 >>>universal conundrum. Please, relieve us of this easily avoided
 >>>ignorance, an ignorance so obviously self inflicted... oh
 >>>teachers, oh leaders, oh holders of that guiding light of
 >>>enlightened process...

 >>>Guys - your unwarranted hubris is showing...

 >>Who, then, do we go to for relief of this pervasive ignorance?

 >OK. You seemingly imply that there is _no_ pervasive ignorance,

Astounding that you should think that. The point of my brief,
sarcastic comment was simply this: You attack others for their
"hubris" in talking about ignorance, and then you declare that
nearly everyone else is ignorant. You feel you know truths that
many others don't know. You may well be right, but the way you
put it is far more arrogant than those you criticized.

I didn't say one word about whether I think there's pervasive
ignorance or not. Disagreeing with you on one thing doesn't, you
know, mean disagreeing with you on everything.

 >or if there is we shouldn't _do_ anything about it. Our
 >institutions are forthcoming, our government is beyond reproach,
 >our schools produce an abundance of critical thinkers, and our
 >corporate media is not, largely, the unctuous collection of
 >two-dollar whores that I suspect it to be. In for a penny, in
 >for a pound, Mr. Sandow.

Wow. One word of criticism of you, and this load of garbage is
laid at my door. Do you, in fact, know anything at all about
what I think?

 >Forget your irritation with me, if you can, and tell me what's
 >on your New York mind. I'm not above learning something if
 >you've something to teach. And if convinced that I'm out of line
 >I'll cop to it immediately.

You criticize others for being arrogant, while acting far more
arrogantly yourself. That's the sum total of my point. You think
you're in possession of truths others don't have. You may be
right - but that doesn't excuse your attitude. You'll teach far
better with humility than with sneering superiority.

But what's most serious, and the real reason I get annoyed, is
that you make smug assumptions, instead of learning how things
really work. You disbelieve the media, which isn't a dumb thing
to do. But then you go and believe whatever you like, whether
there's evidence for it or not. You excuse is that the media is
covering up the alleged evidence, and that anyone who disagrees
with you has bought the media line. That's not helpful at all.

 >>Could it - just possibly - be you?

 >Anything's possible, _however_ unlikely, Mr. Sandow. And I
 >wouldn't kick _me_ out of that bed for eating salty crackers,
 >but after parsing the above reply I can't see where I even
 >remotely imply your, rather oily, assertion. Maybe my spot on
 >assessment of the media fudged your drawers a little bit.
 >"Musta' hit pretty close to the mark to get [you] so riled up,
 >eh Chewy"? <g>.

I'm not much of a corporate media insider, but I've been there.
I've been there enough to tell you inside stories (about media
distortions, self-serving coverups, racism, smugness, arrogance,
mistakes that reveal obvious bias, and occasional outright
lying) that would curl your hair. Except, of course, that you
"suspect" you know all this already.

But then why should I trust your assumptions about the media,
when you make such uninformed assumptions about me? At least
I've been there. I have nothing to defend, as you'd quickly
understand if you knew my professional and political history,
and the history of some people who are very close to me.(I might
start, for instance, with a piece in the Boston Herald back in
the '60s, about the group of radical activists I worked with,
fulltime. It detailed our alleged ties to the Soviet communists,
who allegedly controlled us, and every word was a lie. The most
amusing part was the alleged organizational chart, showing who
in our group reported to whom. The truth was that we were a
disorganized mess.)

What you need, if I may say so, is precise information, not smug
assumptions. That's the only way to fight the real enemies, who
truly do contribute to pervasive ignorance. There's no point
attacking people like Jan, who know a lot about how things
_really_ work.


Greg Sandow








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                         UFOs Reported Over Suriname

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:28:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:28:26 -0400
Subject: UFOs Reported Over Suriname

http://europe.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/americas/10/18/suriname.sighting.ap/index.html

UFOs Reported Over Suriname

October 19, 2001 Posted: 0054 GMT


PARAMARIBO, Suriname (AP) -- Dozens of people in the South
American country of Suriname have reported seeing an
unidentified flying object near its capital, police and military
officials said.

Police, military and air traffic control officials said they
received reports of a brightly lit white object that appeared to
fly back and forth, sometimes at great speed, during a two-hour
period Wednesday morning.

Local media also broadcast reports of the alleged sightings on
the southern outskirts of the capital, and most television
stations broadcast images of the object.

Surinamese Air Force Officer Tony Comvalius said there were no
planes in the area at the time and he confirmed with the weather
service that it was not a weather balloon. He said he also saw
the object.

"I don't know what it was but was definitely not a flying object
I know," Comvalius said.

Not everyone was convinced that the sighting was mysterious.

"I do not believe in UFOs. I think this sighting had something
to do with some kind of scientific experiment, nothing more,"
said Sran Herewood, a 60-year-old civil servant.

Copyright 2001 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.





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                   Re: UFOs Reported Over Suriname - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:18:47 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:47:29 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Reported Over Suriname - Hall



 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >To: "- UFO UpDates Subscribers -":;
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: UFOs Reported Over Suriname
 >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:28:26 -0400

 >Source: CNN.com/World

 >http://europe.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/americas/10/18/suriname.sighting.ap/index.htm
l

 >UFOs Reported Over Suriname

 >October 19, 2001 Posted: 0054 GMT

<snip>

And, as is absolutely typical of 95% of the news media, there is
not nearly enough factual information in the story to even make
a wild guess as to whether something mundane or truly unusual
was seen. The two-hour duration makes me skeptical of the latter
until more detailed information becomes available.


Dick







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                             Goethe's Sighting?

From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@email.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 04:34:55 +0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:45:06 -0400
Subject: Goethe's Sighting?


Dear List members,

Could anyone please tell me where in Goethe's autobiographies he
writes about his 'UFO' sighting? It's a minor 'case' but nobody
has ever bothered extracting the exact paragraph from its
source.

Apparently he wrote his autobiography,"Aus meinem Leben.
Dichtung und Wahrheit", in 4 parts (1811, 1812, 1814, 1831).
Then there was a 4th part, published after his death, in 1833.
He also wrote, in 1816, "Italinische Reise", another
autobiographical work about his travels in Italy between 1786
and 88, in 2 volumes.

The usual reference for his 1768 sighting is the "6th part" of
his autobiography (a reference first used by Vallee, who was
given it by a contact). But this doesn't make much sense. Can
anyone help me with this?


Thanks,

Chris Aubeck










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                  Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:32:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 03:42:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:23:02 +0200

 >>Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:29:57 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction

 >>>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:17:23 +0200

 >>Ok, so you admit going into this conversation/discussion with
 >>your mind already made up that nothing 'physical' happened. Let
 >>me ask you one if I may. Why should I engage you (or anyone
 >>else) in a "lengthy" discussion about an event that you have
 >>already prejudged?

 >Dear John,

 >I do not think to have prejudged any event, just your
 >interpretation of it.

Hello Luis,

You obviously didn't get the message I wrote in my response to
you. I'm not going to waste my time rehashing the details of
that one event with someone who has already made up their minds
that (regardless) of what I have to say, it is, what _you_ say
it is.

The one thing that both yourself and Peter continue to miss is
that these UFO abductions are gestalt of many components. A
_lifetime_ of such events. Any 'physical evidence' is always
conveniently explained away or simply left out of your theories.
Consistently. And only because any reported physical aspects of
the phenom do not quite 'fit-in' with your purely
psychological/psychosocial explanations. (ie; ground trace
evidence, marks, scars, bruising, nose bleeds, etc.) Until your
'theories' can explain these physical manifestations that are
associated with the abductions, those 'theories' are inadequate
and do not address the 'whole' of what is being reported.

I'm not even going to mention multiple witness cases where
according to the 'psych' (-ological or social) explanations,
many people will simultaneously experience some kind of
unidentified psychological embolism that causes them all to
share the same hallucinations. Gimme a break. Can't you see how
limited your scope is when meeting this issue head on?

Another pet peeve I have with the 'psychosocialists' is; ...
personally, I'm more than a little tired of being told that I
didn't see what I saw with my own eyes by people who have
absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Unlike many of
the current "pop-psychology today" generation, I trust my
senses, and my memory of events that left deep and lasting
impressions on me. In fact, just to turn the tables for a
moment, I think people who are so out of touch with themselves
and with the world around them to the point where they do not
even trust their own faculties, are not psychologically healthy
people. ;)

I mean what's up with the 'hard sell' of belief systems like;
"Your memories are faulty, so you can't trust any of them. No
matter how fresh and vivid they are." Here's another; "Don't
believe what your own eyes are showing you." Or, my 'favorite',
"What you 'think' happened to you didn't really happen to you.
It was something else." On and on like that. To me, that kind of
'thinking' is irrational and doesn't make much sense. Regardless
of any psychological tripe that some 'pundits' might be peddling
this month.

And all because 'some folks' refuse to believe that what is
being reported by so many people world-wide could be true.

As reported.

That's not my (or any abductees) problem Luis. It is a 'problem'
that is introduced by those whose dogmatically held beliefs will
not allow them to entertain the possibility that people may be
reporting their encounters accurately and truthfully.

"They cannot possibly be real. ergo they are not. It _must_ be_
something 'other' than what people are reporting." To my way of
thinking, that kind of stubborn nebbish-ness is more convoluted
than a ball park pretzel.

It's not easy maintaining an open mind in today's world.
Cynicism rules the intellectual roost. But you and others should
make an attempt nonetheless. You are so very sure that we are
all wrong... how sure are you that you are so right?

"There are things in Heaven and Earth that are not dreamt of in
your philosophy Horatio."


Regards,

John Velez

            A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
            www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                 johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
   "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."








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   Oct > Oct 20

                    Re: Rendlesham Radiation - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:13:49 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 03:45:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Rendlesham Radiation - McGonagle


 >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:49:27+0100
 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Rendlesham Radiation

 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Rendlesham Radiation
 >>Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:35:18 +0100

 >>Regarding:

 >>>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 23:56:51 +0100
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Rendlesham: Landing Deposited 10x Background

 >Sorry did I hear that Rendlesham Forest was one of the most
 >convincing cases of UFO Visitation on this planet?

 >Or was it a case of dodgy machines not working with US Army
 >Staff?

Hello, Roy & List,

I don't know if your post was serious or not. Depending on your
mindset, the case can be regarded by some as the most convincing
case of UFO visitation in the UK. Like Roswell, I am convinced
that something took place, but I don't know what.

One excellent hypothesis is that it was a re-entry of a KH-9
film cannister. The measured radiation levels have been used by
ETH explanation propounders to support their hypothesis, but is
far from the only element indicating that something happened.

Cheers,

Joe







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                 Re: Security Precautions in New York City -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:05:07 +0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 03:49:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City -


 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City
 >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 11:07:36 -0400

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:04:05 +0600
 >>Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City

 >>>From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City
 >>>Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:17:02 -0400

 >>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:09:15 +0600
 >>>>Subject: Re: Security Precautions in New York City

 >>>>Given that the ignorance you pronounce upon is endemic to our
 >>>>system, officiated by our institutions, bolstered by our
 >>>>culture, encouraged by the media, and a pervasive invasion of
 >>>>the very _process_ of our thinking, I'm twice blessed to be
 >>>>exposed to two who so obviously have the dead-lock nut on the
 >>>>universal conundrum. Please, relieve us of this easily avoided
 >>>>ignorance, an ignorance so obviously self inflicted... oh
 >>>>teachers, oh leaders, oh holders of that guiding light of
 >>>>enlightened process...

 >>>>Guys - your unwarranted hubris is showing...

 >>>Who, then, do we go to for relief of this pervasive ignorance?

 >>OK. You seemingly imply that there is _no_ pervasive ignorance,

 >Astounding that you should think that.

Not so astounding really, Mr. Sandow. The squeaky wheel gets the
grease, and I was just cutting to the proverbial chase. You took
issue with my estimation of another�s estimation of ignorance
that I felt was two dimensional, glaringly unenlightened, and
suspiciously quick. You suggest in a terse sarcastic manner that
there is nothing to criticize in their convenient and
self-serving estimation. I merely remind you of the implications
of that kind of thinking.

 >The point of my brief,
 >sarcastic comment was simply this: You attack others for their
 >"hubris" in talking about ignorance, and then you declare that
 >nearly everyone else is ignorant.

Attack? If you wish� That wouldn�t be my characterization, but
you can have it your way. Additionally, nearly every one _is_
ignorant, aren�t they, and ignorant largely for the "load of
garbage" you sneer at shortly... And taken point for point, I
can�t see where anyone in their right _mind_ would argue any
point in the four: institutions, governments, schools, and the
corporate media. But how would _you_ defend them? Garbage
indeed.

 >You feel you know truths that
 >many others don't know. You may well be right, but the way you
 >put it is far more arrogant than those you criticized.

Well pardon the hell out of me, Mr. Sandow, but I spent too much
of my life with folks similar to these pissing on my pant leg
and telling me it�s raining. Looking down and grokking the
reality, finally, I feel a righteous empowerment and full-bodied
confidence that I never really had before. If that confidence
comes across like arrogance I guess I�m just _not_ that sorry.
Sorry.

 >I didn't say one word about whether I think there's pervasive
 >ignorance or not. Disagreeing with you on one thing doesn't, you
 >know, mean disagreeing with you on everything.

With some folks adept at communicating between the lines one
must read between the lines. I don�t think that I misread what�s
between _your_ practiced lines. Moreover, it was a pretty
effective way of flushing you out. It seems to have worked.
Finally, I�m glad that we can agree on some things, by your own
admission.

 >>or if there is we shouldn't _do_ anything about it. Our
 >>institutions are forthcoming, our government is beyond reproach,
 >>our schools produce an abundance of critical thinkers, and our
 >>corporate media is not, largely, the unctuous collection of
 >>two-dollar whores that I suspect it to be. In for a penny, in
 >>for a pound, Mr. Sandow.
 >
 >Wow. One word of criticism of you, and this load of garbage is
 >laid at my door. Do you, in fact, know anything at all about
 >what I think?

There�s the so-called garbage. So, our institutions are
forthcoming, our government is beyond reproach, our schools
produce an abundance of critical thinkers, and our corporate
media is not, largely, the unctuous collection of two-dollar
whores that I suspect it to be? But, then, the inverse might be
what we agree on.

As regards knowing "anything at all about what [you] think�"
Well, I�ve been reading you for several years now, and I would
think that I should deserve easy criticism if I _didn�t_ have
some idea regarding what you think or think about. Besides, I
think I understand more (about what you�re thinking about) than
_I_ would be comfortable with, were it me. <g>.

 >>Forget your irritation with me, if you can, and tell me what's
 >>on your New York mind. I'm not above learning something if
 >>you've something to teach. And if convinced that I'm out of line
 >>I'll cop to it immediately.

 >You criticize others for being arrogant, while acting far more
 >arrogantly yourself. That's the sum total of my point.

�But I think you confuse arrogance for focus and confidence, and
I wonder at the real motivation for _that_.

 >You think
 >you're in possession of truths others don't have. You may be
 >right - but that doesn't excuse your attitude. You'll teach far
 >better with humility than with sneering superiority.

I only sneer at sneers Mr. Sandow. And I�m not he one saying I�m
superior. Those were _your_ words. So, I�m not trying to teach,
as much as I think I have a contribution to make� and _will_
make that contribution. It�s what I do.

 >But what's most serious, and the real reason I get annoyed, is
 >that you make smug assumptions, instead of learning how things
 >really work.

Oh come now Mr. Sandow. You think _you_ know how things really
work? As good as they�ve worked so far? And as something of a
world traveler, over fifty, and with an ongoing eclectic
education, I think I�ve got a pretty good idea how things do
work, after all, for all your cast aspersions on my
intelligence, sincerity, and veracity. I can tell the difference
between someone pissing on my pants leg and your garden-variety
rainy day, by way of example.

 >You disbelieve the media, which isn't a dumb thing
 >to do. But then you go and believe whatever you like, whether
 >there's evidence for it or not.

Aww rats. I�m gonna have to ask you to trot out some examples of
that, and as regards 'evidence'? One man�s cheese is another
man�s rotten milk. I bite my thumb at your 'evidence', it�s got
the strange scent of used asparagus to it.

 >You excuse is that the media is
 >covering up the alleged evidence, and that anyone who disagrees
 >with you has bought the media line. That's not helpful at all.

Nonsense. Who disagrees with me, and who is best served by
buying in to the media line? And you�ll have to trot out an
example of somebody disagreeing with me and me accusing them of
buying in simply because of that disagreement.

 >>>Could it - just possibly - be you?

 >>Anything's possible, _however_ unlikely, Mr. Sandow. And I
 >>wouldn't kick _me_ out of that bed for eating salty crackers,
 >>but after parsing the above reply I can't see where I even
 >>remotely imply your, rather oily, assertion. Maybe my spot on
 >>assessment of the media fudged your drawers a little bit.
 >>"Musta' hit pretty close to the mark to get [you] so riled up,
 >>eh Chewy"? <g>.

 >I'm not much of a corporate media insider, but I've been there.

We�ve all been there Mr. Sandow. "There" is wherever the dues
are paid. I paid mine in combat and 23 years of tough service.
I�m sure your "there" is just as valid.

 >I've been there enough to tell you inside stories (about media
 >distortions, self-serving coverups, racism, smugness, arrogance,
 >mistakes that reveal obvious bias, and occasional outright
 >lying) that would curl your hair. Except, of course, that you
 >"suspect" you know all this already.

All you tell me here is that my suspicions are accurate, spot on
correct, and have every validity. Thank you. I guess we CAN
agree after all.

 >But then why should I trust your assumptions about the media,
 >when you make such uninformed assumptions about me?

It seemed to be what you were communicating between your terse
lines. I was as surprised as you were. Glad you were able to
clear this up. We only know you from your expressions, Mr.
Sandow, perhaps you could be a little more clear?

 >At least
 >I've been there. I have nothing to defend, as you'd quickly
 >understand if you knew my professional and political history,
 >and the history of some people who are very close to me.(I might
 >start, for instance, with a piece in the Boston Herald back in
 >the '60s, about the group of radical activists I worked with,
 >fulltime. It detailed our alleged ties to the Soviet communists,
 >who allegedly controlled us, and every word was a lie. The most
 >amusing part was the alleged organizational chart, showing who
 >in our group reported to whom. The truth was that we were a
 >disorganized mess.)

I love it when you do this. Go off, that is, on some little
detour of erudite confabulation, re-establishing literary bona
fides that don�t further your arguments very much, but
buttressing the ramparts of a smoothly unctuous cosmopolitan
exterior, regardless. It�s self-lubricating. ...Very Slick.

It�s a great performance, and eerily reminiscent of a rainy day�
But then I look down. <g>.

 >What you need, if I may say so, is precise information, not smug
 >assumptions.

While assumptions might make an ass of you and me, the
information that you celebrate seems to get less precise with
each passing day. Perhaps you�ve heard the expression that
"everything you know is wrong"? The guys in that old comedy
troop "Firesign Theatre" pointed it out thirty years ago, and it
appears to be truer now that it ever was. I�d blame the garbage
as you have labeled it, and having recognized that, will no
longer take blame for it. On the other hand (?) my assumptions
have served me remarkably well, seem wonderfully efficacious,
and perform no harm or foul. I�ll use what works, as the *facts*
seem to serve only convenience, get dimmer every moment, and
cross the line into crass manipulation with easy indifference.
This is not as I would have it. You either, presumably.

 >That's the only way to fight the real enemies, who
 >truly do contribute to pervasive ignorance. There's no point
 >attacking people like Jan, who know a lot about how things
 >_really_ work.

Really! I guess that Jan is going to have to prove it to _me_,
Mr. Sandow, just as you�re going to have to. I remain unbowed,
and with pants legs still, decidedly, undamp.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
www.alienview.net







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                        Re: AA... By The By - Tophar

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:24:54 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 04:06:05 -0400
Subject: Re: AA... By The By - Tophar


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: AA... By The By
 >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:30:45 +0000


 >Coulda, maybe, possibly... doesn't cut it for me. This sort of
 >groundless (or should I say "ungrounded") speculation is
 >virtually meaningless.

Don't know if it is totally Ungrounded Richard, I surely cannot
say it is totally grounded on facts. More or less it is grounded
on observations and reports made by others. Until one of us gets
hold of a Grey, we will not have 100% grounded facts to work
with, or until the likes of the NSA/CIA share information with
us.

Seems logical to me that being around such a bright light source
would require some sort of protection for the eyes. The Greys
are the only race of aliens reported using such light sources.
So again it would be safe and logical to assume any alien with
protection type filters over its eyes would be a Grey. I welcome
a more complete explanation from anyone else.

 >Then when you arbitrarily, and
 >contradictory to well-established facts, change the meaning of
 >"Gray" to suit yourself, you are indulging in some very
 >convoluted reasoning.

Well no not really, it is based on logic, nothing more. When
Copenicus told the world that we travelled around the Sun, not
the other way around. He wasn't saying it to suit himself. It
was based on observation mostly. After all he couldn't travel
out into space and see it for himself. I follow very closely in
the foot steps of such great people when dealing with the
unknown.

First, I looked at what it would take to live in space. Every
problem I encountered, the Greys seemed to have solved. A friend
of mine that works for NASA as an engineer told me they could
send people to Mars, no problem with the travel arrangements, it
was just a case of the astronauts surviving the trip. The human
body just isn't cut out for long team stays in outer space. A
Human living in outer space for years on end is totally out of
the question unless you don't intend on returning to Earth.

So it is logical to also assume one would need to make a few
changes to the human body first if one wanted to live in space
and travel around in the same way the Grey ECT do.

Plants seemed to be a logical, if not idea gene to cross with.
Well maybe not idea from a vanity point of view as Grey aren't
the prettiest things around. But from a practical point of view,
there seem to be no other species in nature one could use to
solve the problem of life in space. There are some insects and
reptiles one could consider but I personal wouldn't want to look
like a bug and then there is the issue of food to consider, bugs
eat the strangest of things. A plant is much easier to cater
for. Still from reports we have, it would seem some races have
tried the insect and reptile cross breading as a solution to the
problem. (ugly group of mothers that lot) Though it is said
beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So cross breading with
insects and reptile seems to be possible.

 >I can easily speculate in equal and opposite directions, so
 >what does it prove?

Well it proves I guess Richard, that to live and travel in space
one is going to look a lot different to other terrestrial
creatures and one has to make a lot of changes. It would seem
you either live in space as an extraterrestrial or you live on a
planet as a terrestrial. There seems to be no doing both without
any side effects. It is also safe to assume that cross breading
to make/create a suitable body for life in space is a necessary
evil. There are other factors to bring in when considering a
hybrid body, the type of power source being used, the
availability of food, storage, then there is the amount of room
on the craft itself. Waste is a problem and NO just bumping it
out into space is not AN OPTION. Waste would have to be re-used
as there is no stopping Off at the 7/11 to pick up supply's.

I'm not saying I have all the answers, but I wouldn't say my
research and findings are ungrounded nor are they to suit
myself, I tell it how I see it and this is how I see it. What I
do think happens though is that a researcher can get locked into
one train of thought, which is why decisions boards like this
are so helpful, it keeps everyone on their toes and thinking
outside of ones our little world.

This is of course a very shorten explanation as I really don't
want to bore everyone to death here. Plus I am not a big fan of
writing it is such a chore for me to do. I think writing with
words like this is so primitive and time consuming. Small wander
I like short hand so much. Who ever invented the English
language should be blown up, but that's just my opinion.


Cheers,

Tophar.







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                      Drawing of Hickson/Parker Entity

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:28:57 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 04:07:06 -0400
Subject: Drawing of Hickson/Parker Entity


I found and scanned a drawing I did of the entity allegedly
encountered by Hickson and Parker in Miss. For whatever it's
worth, it can be see here:

http://mactonnies.com/doodles3.html

--Mac








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                   Re: UFOs Reported Over Suriname - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:16:28 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:10:07 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Reported Over Suriname - Hatch


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >To: "- UFO UpDates Subscribers -":;
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: UFOs Reported Over Suriname
 >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:28:26 -0400

 >Source: CNN.com/World

 >http://europe.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/americas/10/18/suriname.sighting.ap/index.htm
l

 >UFOs Reported Over Suriname

 >October 19, 2001 Posted: 0054 GMT

 >PARAMARIBO, Suriname (AP) -- Dozens of people in the South
 >American country of Suriname have reported seeing an
 >unidentified flying object near its capital, police and military
 >officials said.

 >Police, military and air traffic control officials said they
 >received reports of a brightly lit white object that appeared to
 >fly back and forth, sometimes at great speed, during a two-hour
 >period Wednesday morning.

<snip>


Hello all:


A "brightly lit white object" is somewhere in that nether region
of an object, and a brilliant light (perhaps) which it may have
been carrying.

Late model UFOs make nice window dressing for my database of
course, they make it look "up to date".

I only wish the media could be more descriptive.

Just what was it that convinced the Suriname AF man that it was
not a flying object he knew about? Did it maneuver in some
impossible way perhaps?

Its not a slow news day, there is no need for fluff.

Thanks for the news quote anyhow.  Maybe I'm just getting tired
and cranky.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







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                Re: Drawing of Hickson/Parker Entity - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:36:55 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:21:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Drawing of Hickson/Parker Entity - Hatch


 >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:28:57 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Drawing of Hickson/Parker Entity
 >To: UfoUpdates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >I found and scanned a drawing I did of the entity allegedly
 >encountered by Hickson and Parker in Miss. For whatever it's
 >worth, it can be see here:

 >http://mactonnies.com/doodles3.html

 >--Mac


Hello Mac:

Thanks for the artwork!

The top figure in the top drawing reminds me of nobody so much
as Phil Klass! I wonder if PK has seen this.

Best

- Larry Hatch








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                Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Strickland

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 08:05:34 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 11:10:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Strickland


 >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:32:32 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction

 >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:23:02 +0200

 >>>Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:29:57 -0400
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction

 >>>>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>>Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:17:23 +0200


Dear Luis, John, Listers,

Luis, whether you want to look hard at what John has said or not
concerning his abduction experience(s), you might want to
_reconsider_ questioning the premise on which you have based
your doubts.

John said it best (snipped):

 >In fact, just to turn the tables for a
 >moment, I think people who are so out of touch with themselves
 >and with the world around them to the point where they do not
 >even trust their own faculties, are not psychologically healthy
 >people.

Something really worth considering. Either we trust our senses,
or we don't. If you do, then you're psychologically 'sound'. If
you don't, or can't, there _is_ something wrong. Pretty simple.

Luis, it's the _pain_, real physical pain, that drives the
reality of those experiences home, ET related or otherwise..

Luis, I was told that I would forget the pain of childbirth
after my first baby was born. I've got news for you. Initially,
I wanted 11 children. After going through 18 hours of labor the
first time, whenver I considered getting pregnant again, I
_dreamt_ of that labor pain that I had experienced. The 'dream'
wasn't real. The memory of the pain was. It was a 'wake-up'
call, Luis. A 'little reminder'. If I hadn't gotten pregnant 'by
accident' the second time, I promise you, I wouldn't have gone
through that again. Same goes for the radical mastectomy and
extruciating reconstructive surgery. Sorry. Once _is_ enough.

The laser burns I got (before lasers were invented) from the ETs
transporter - in my bedroom - was _not_ something I will forget,
either The pain was excruciating. The pain drove the reality
home. I knew I wasn't dreaming. My senses told me it was _very_
real. At that point, I deduced that _all_ of the other
ET-related experiences I had been having since childhood were
also real. Perhaps an invalid jump in reasoning. I think not. I
wear the physical scars to this day.

Wake up and smell the coffee, Luis et al.


Sue Strickland
ex-abductee







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                  Re: Pope & Rendlesham 'Humanoids' - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 15:44:30 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 19:02:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Pope & Rendlesham 'Humanoids' - Bruni


 >From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Pope & Rendlesham 'Humanoids'
 >Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 19:03:26 -0600

Apologies Sue, I have just managed to get around to responding
to e-mail

 >Dear Georgina, Listers,

 >First, I want to thank you for your responses to my questions.
 >It bothers me, however, that it took sooooo long for you and
 >your investigators to validate the information presented.

 >I do appreciate your hard work, Georgina, and hope you will
 >forgive my impatient questions.

I don't really understand the above comments Sue. It took three
years to do the initial research the case, during which time I
wrote the book.

 >I also am delighted to hear that the paperback edition of "You
 >Can't Tell the People" is about to be released! I want so much
 >to read your book, but I can't afford the hardback edition at
 >$50.00. I've been _waiting_ a long time for this paperback to
 >come out. Have you added an addendum to the paperback version
 >showing the "new" USAF reports you discussed at the Leeds
 >Conference last week?

I have added a new chapter which features new witness testimony,
I've also added the latest information on the MOD file including
the problems caused by my book launch that took place in MOD
Main Building, Whitehall, and how senior officials tried to stop
it at the last minute.

 >Groan. Is this another mis-communication? The question that I
 >had about "humanoids" allegedly seen at the Rendelsham Forest
 >site was based on information that was included (perhaps
 >erroneously) in a synopsis of the Leeds Conference, emailed to
 >UFOUpdates (see sentence 2):

I did talk about a witness who has admitted they had interaction
with humanoid type beings, but this was not related to my talk
on the files.

 >Also, in your written response to Larry Warren's questions (see
 >below), you strongly suggest that Col. Williams' presence at the
 >Rendelsham Forest incident was in doubt. Was he confusing Col.
 >Williams' with General Charles Gabriel's presence at the site?.
 >Has the testimony of Col. Williams been made public yet? Do you
 >have a copy of Col. Williams' and General Gabriel's written
 >statements concerning the incident and the supposed (perhaps
 >telepathic) communication which allegedly took place?

Gordon Williams was not involved in the actual encounter in
Rendlesham Forest, neither was General Gabriel. Charles Halt was
the officer referred to. There is a chapter on General Williams
in my book. Williams contacted me a few years ago, which was how
I came to write the book. He also visited me in London where I
interviewed him at length.

 >After seeing the dates posted on 3 of the 5 USAF reports...
 >only 3-5 days after the initial incident occurred, it seems
 >evident that the reports were intentionally withheld from the
 >MOD by the USAFE.

They were withheld from certain departments, but I am in no
doubt that the Home Office were alerted. This has now been
confirmed by two primary witnesses and it is worth mentioning
that the Deputy Base Commander of the AFOSI gave me the names of
the Brits who would have been involved in an investigation of
this nature.

 >Obviously, General Charles Gabriel took his orders from
 >someone in a higher position that himself.

I expect he was advised by the Secretary of the Air Force.
General Gabriel was the Commander in Chief of the USAFE.

 >I should think it important that an updated version including
 >these reports be distributed, especially since it took Lord
 >Hill-Norton and you such extreme effort to obtain copies of the
 >evidence supporting the reality of the incident.

We are working on it.

Best wishes,

Georgina





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              Re: Secret Rendlesham Documents Released - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 15:44:33 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 19:03:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Secret Rendlesham Documents Released - Bruni


 >From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Secret Rendlesham Documents Released
 >Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:26:19 +0100

 >Five documents relating to the alleged UFO Landing at RAF
 >Woodbridge in 1980 are no longer a secret following a landmark
 >decision by the MOD's Director of Information Exploitation.

Actually there are more than five documents missing.

 >Claims have been made that the release of the MOD file is
 >entirely as a result of pressure placed upon the Ministry by
 >Lord Hill-Norton and Georgina Bruni. Credit is due to both, but
 >this claim is not correct.

<snip>

 >My request for the Rendlesham File was submitted in February
 >2001

There has been more than a little spin from sceptical
researchers about the release of various MOD documents, and
while reference has been made to MOD's decision to release the
material (which was actually made public in May) the work that
led to this decision took place last year. This involved my
discussions with former Chief of Defence Staff Lord Hill Norton
and former CO of RAF Bentwaters/Woodbridge General Gordon
Williams, together with the involvement of various serving and
retired MOD and RAF personnel.

Central to the release of the documents was the pressure put on
the Government by Lord Hill Norton in a series of Written
Parliamentary Questions based on the material in my book "You
Can't Tell The People" (the launch party of which was held on 14
November 2000 at the MOD's Whitehall Headquarters building).
Lord Hill Norton also raised various issues about the case with
MOD Minister Baroness symons, and this process is continuing
with Baroness Symons' replacement, Lord Bach.

So while several members of the public have submitted successful
requests for Rendlesham documents using the Code of Practice,
the position is somewhat more complex than they may have
realised.(as is usually the case when the MOD is involved) and
the groundwork that led to their requests being considered
favourably was done at somewhat higher levels last year.

The cover of the main Rendlesham file shows the date on which
the file was recalled from archives, 1 November 2000.

There was indeed concern that I was launching a book (which
criticised the MOD for withholding information) in the MOD Main
Building. You have no idea what took place during that week
(details in my paperback) and how efforts were made to stop the
launch from going ahead.

I will be posting a detailed statement on all of this in the
next few weeks.


Georgina Bruni









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                               New Fatima Book

From: Joaquim Fernandes <j.fernan@netcabo.pt>
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 18:59:11 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 19:19:40 -0400
Subject: New Fatima Book


Portuguese historian Dr. Joaquim Fernandes, from the University
Fernando Pessoa, has co-authored a newly researched book with his
colleague Dr. Fina d'Armada about the Fatima apparitions and
phenomena.

This new book has 300 pages and is titled: 'Fatima Beyond The
Secret'. It shows new paths and examples of the religious
influences on the main seer Lucia dos Santos, who is still
alive. The authors were able to trace the Jesuit priests'
influence during the first years of her monastic seclusion in
the Northern Spain.

The new title will be out in November, edited by the
Portuguese Ancora Editora, from Lisbon.

Both historians, Fernandes and d'Armada have been studying the
Fatima events since the late 70's. They approached the subject
re-analysing in a first book, named 'The Fatima Apparitions And
The UFO Phenomenon' - which is being translated into English -
where they exposed a criticised version of all the known documents
and personal reports yet published and worked with the original
archives maintained at the Fatima Sanctuary.

The authors go far beyond the popular religious beliefs
built up over 84 years, with neutral perspectives and
knowing that a deep cultural bakcground was prevalent in the
witness reports, with all the religious patterns of 1917 in a
poor, rural and illiterate Portugal.

Their factual investigation shows new paths and examples of the
religious influences, quoting religious and devotional texts of
Jesuit authors from the XIX century and compare them with
Lucia's memoirs, written in the late 30's. They were able to
track down and identify the priests who influenced Lucia dos
Santos and also document visible anachronisms and artificial
arrangments of some major arguments of the Fatima message as it
was defined until our days.


Joaquim Fernandes








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                       Re: AA... By The By - Stickland

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 12:08:04 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 19:23:32 -0400
Subject: Re: AA... By The By - Stickland


 >From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: AA... By The By
 >Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:24:54 +1000

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>Subject: Re: AA... By The By
 >>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:30:45 +0000

 >>Coulda, maybe, possibly... doesn't cut it for me. This sort of
 >>groundless (or should I say "ungrounded") speculation is
 >>virtually meaningless.

 >Don't know if it is totally Ungrounded Richard, I surely cannot
 >say it is totally grounded on facts. More or less it is grounded
 >on observations and reports made by others. Until one of us gets
 >hold of a Grey, we will not have 100% grounded facts to work
 >with, or until the likes of the NSA/CIA share information with
 >us.


Dear Dick, Chris, Mac, Listers,

Need to jump in here. It's an interesting theory. Sounds pretty
far-fetched. I always thought plants had leaves and/or flowers.
Can plants be silicon-based, too? Reason I ask is that I got a
clue (only a clue) straight from the "horse's mouth" during one
of my attempts to find out answers as to what "they" were. This
was back in 1956.

I asked a basic question "A" concerning what they were, since
they appeared to have no belly-button, no frontal genitalia to
reproduce (found out later where that's located) or to eliminate
waste, didn't use their mouths to talk, and presumably did not
chew, as I looked and saw no teeth, and their heads were way too
large to allow for them to be born vaginally.

In answer to my question, "Daniel" jumped to "C" with this
question to me: "What kinds of life forms do you know about?" I
answered, "Animal, Plant, and Mineral." He nodded in the
affirmative, and said, "What else?" I said, "Well, you aren't a
rock, so you're not Mineral; you don't eat meat, do you?" "No,"
was the answer. "So, you're probably not Animal"; and, you don't
look like a Plant." Silence. No response to confirm or deny. As
if to say, "Bingo!" He _didn't_ say it though, so there was no
real confirmation. None. "So, what are you?" I said. Just then,
one of the smaller beings walked past and said condescendingly,
"Forget it! She doesn't understand. She's carbon-based, what'dya
expect?" I was offended and insulted. I thought I was being
called a dummy, with no more brains than a lump of coal! After
calming me down, "Daniel" said, "we're silicon-based." He showed
me a hologram of the DNA/RNA chains, side-by-side, but I didn't
understand what he was trying to teach me. I guess he was
showing me the differences between us and "them," but I'd never
seen such a bizarre piece of art. (They had shown me holograms
before, so that wasn't too amazing.) It looked like a 3-D
abstract cubical sculpture to me, with red and yellow cubes. Art
was my forte, science was not. Portraits were my specialty.
(They often checked to make sure I wasn't doing portraits of
them. I wasn't, but I sure did observe them like I was).
Besides, this happened in 1956, long before we discovered these
DNA/RNA chains. You can imagine how shocked I was, when in 1964,
while sitting in a lecture hall in biophysics, a movie was shown
of the 3-D chain structure of the DNA molecule. I was glad it
was dark in there. My eyes popped open about as wide as humanly
possible. Surprise! The only difference between what "Daniel"
had shown me in 1956 and the DNA molecule we constructed was
that we used cylindrical forms, "they" used cubes. Both look
like beautiful 3-D sculptures of art work to me. Does this help
or muddy the waters even more?

 >Seems logical to me that being around such a bright light source
 >would require some sort of protection for the eyes. The Greys
 >are the only race of aliens reported using such light sources.
 >So again it would be safe and logical to assume any alien with
 >protection type filters over its eyes would be a Grey. I welcome
 >a more complete explanation from anyone else.

Until I saw the AA film on the TV several years ago, I never
knew that the covering over their eyes was a shield. It looked
completely opaque when you looked into their eyes. You could not
see pupils behind the shields. How _did_ those "doctors" know
that there were eye shields over the eyes when they did the
dissection? Good question!

Also, only the very tall greys (6' or so, with bleached-white
skin) had these huge eyes, flat faces, thin lips, high foreheads
that rose symetrically until the back of the cranium met the
lower half, where it protruded out over the spinal column so
much so as to appear to be a huge tumor, with the immediate
impression that it seemed impossible for such a long, skinny
neck to support such weight without the head falling back
against the backbone. "Daniel's" tummy was almost flat, very
little definition between the waist and hips, long, legs, skinny
feet, transparent webbed toes and fingers. He walked with an
easy grace, but often held his hands in front of him. "Daniel"
had an extra "third finger" I think, which I think I counted as
his "pinkie" finger, because his "pinkie" finger was like an
appendage that was sorta "stuck on" like an after thought,
located further down on the outside of his palm. It didn't look
functional. He said it was. I didn't understand how he could zip
or button anything or write with his thumb and index finger so
far apart. It seemed impossible. That's when he showed me he
could write. When he hugged me, he smelled like amonia and
over-cooked hard-boiled eggs, with a tiny scent of roses. It
wasn't a pleasant odor. It often burned my eyes to breathe in
too deeply, and I would think of the famous "Dial"
commercial..."I use Dial. Don't you wish _everyone_ did?" I
think I even suggested he take a bath, that he needed one, and
gave him a bar of "Dial" soap as a gift. I don't think he ever
used it.

His hands reached down to his knee caps, with long upper leg
bones, and his knee caps were _really_ boney. I could tell that
much. I think that's what gave me the idea that he was wearing a
skin-tight suit. The indentation at the knee cap was not quite
so pronounced as it would have been if it was real skin and not
a suit. "Daniel's" fingers were so long that when I held up my
hand against his, he could curl his 3 (or 4) middle fingers over
the tops of mine and touch the back of my hand! He had claws
like a cat. I asked him if he could retract his claws..."nails"
(I corrected myself) like a cat does? He sounded offended, "No!
I'm not a cat!" (He cut his "claws" off after that...but not in
my presence). The thumb was located further down on the palm
than ours, closer to where our wrist bone begins. It was very
difficult for him to hold a pencil the way we do, because of
these anatomical differences, and he ended up pressing way too
hard, breaking the lead. Instead, he held the next pen I got him
between his index and third fingers. He wrote my name and his,
from right-to-left, dropped down a line, and wrote from
left-to-right. It looked like a cross between Gregg Shorthand
and Arabic writing. At the time, none the letters looked
remotely similar, except for the "E" in my name. "Daniel" told
me that they did not have a sound for each letter, that the
characters were whole words or thoughts. Talk about shorthand!
After learning Gregg shorthand, I realized how similar some of
the characters actually are.

"Daniel" sometimes wore a hooded, silvery cape (studded with
reflective sequins or stones?) that was knee-high. He used to
take it off with such a dramatic flare. One of the smaller
beings would stand behind him and take it from him. Only once
did I see him and his buddies _unzip_ and take off what looked
like white, cotton(?) flightsuits in a hurry, after "Daniel"
realized I was inspecting the insignia closely. It had an emblem
on the upper right arm that at first appeared to be an Air Force
insignia. On closer inspection, it looked like a cross between
the Air Force "Wings" insignia of a Sargeant and the American
Medical Assoc. insignia of a snake through a triangle. Once, I
saw "Daniel" wearing a fake goutee and a mask. I realized it was
him, and asked him to take it off. It looked dumb. I thought he
was play-acting with me.

The shorter beings (4' or so) had much smaller eyes, also
opaque, but not nearly as large, greyish-skin color, very
staulkily built, walked as though they were bow-legged
(wobble-wobble walk though I never saw their legs), wore
floor-length hooded monk's tunics and capes, made of what looked
like potato sacks (no kidding). They smelled like moist potting
soil. These beings took orders from the taller ones, like
"Daniel," and were much more able to express emotion, even
showing joy, jumping up and down when excited about something I
had delighted in experiencing. (You'd never in a million years
see "Daniel" jumping up and down with glee.) They were my usual
"teachers" growing up. In 1992, I later saw one of these beings
wearing a well-tailored, perfectly pressed, baby-blue military
uniform, replete with gold-braided shoulder epaulettes. He was
co-piloting a "mini-jet" UFO through the Tijeras Canyon in NM. I
never got a good look at the pilot. I suspect he was a being
similar in make-up to "Daniel" based on his reactions.

Then there were the "Little People." They looked just like the
trolls in the "Billy Goat Gruff" stories. I did not associate
them with "good little elves," as in the folk story, "The Elves
and the Shoemaker." They were tiny, hairy, beady little opaque
black eyes, strong, short (3' or shorter), pug faces, wore all
black, sometimes hooded, sometimes wearing little bells on their
clothes (sound familiar?). They were the ones that would
initially show up (like the advance force of the Marines), scare
the crap out of me, chasing me around the house, or if I refused
to run, would taunt me to "come out and play" (in the middle of
the night). They were subordinate to the other beings, and made
sure everyone was kept sound asleep in the house, while I was
being abducted by the others.

Then were were the reptoids. They were human in form only. They
looked like praying mantis with coppery brown scales all over
their bodies. He walked like he had a catch in his git-a-long,
stiff, having to lift his long, insect like legs way up in
front. If he had been able to stand perfectly upright (which I
think was impossible), he would have been taller than 6', closer
to 7'. He wore no clothes. He even had scales on his fingers,
and his long claws were dirty. They had nasty temperments and
very little sense of humor. One of my first physical exams was
given by one of these creeps, and I looked him over _very_
carefully. The irises of his eyes were yellow, and the pupils of
his eyes were shaped like a cat's, not round. He said to me,
noticing how closely I was observing him, "Only a face a mother
could love?" I said, "I don't understand what you mean." He
said, "You think I'm ugly." I said, "Well, you're different
looking. My father says you can't judge a book by it's cover."
At the time, I was only in the 4th grade. He proved himself over
the years. He was one mean, ugly creep, as malevolent and
manipulative as they come. If I saw him again, I'd cut his guts
out without any hesitation. After the last pas-de-deux with him,
he has wisely not shown himself. If he's smart, he won't.
Otherwise, you all will have several viable pieces of physical
evidence to examine, albeit at least one anatomical appendage
may be "relocated" to a different area of the body. I'm sure
you'd recognize it.

Think again, if you think I like _all_ of them. I'm very
particular about who I call a "friend." Plants? Some beings may
be. The reptoid? I doubt it. He's an animal.


Sincerely,

Sue Strickland
ex-abductee







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   Oct > Oct 20

              Re: Drawing of Hickson/Parker Entity - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 16:43:20 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 19:25:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Drawing of Hickson/Parker Entity - Mortellaro



 >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:28:57 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Drawing of Hickson/Parker Entity
 >To: UfoUpdates <ufoupdates@home.com>


 >I found and scanned a drawing I did of the entity allegedly
 >encountered by Hickson and Parker in Miss. For whatever it's
 >worth, it can be see here:

 >http://mactonnies.com/doodles3.html

 >--Mac

Dear Mac, List, Errol,

I just don't know how you do it, Mac. Must be psychic or
something. The drawing entitled, "Family of Surrealoids," it's
my inlaws. Honest. Uggaly bunch ain't they?

(sigh)

The others I can appreciate by virtue of your honest and silly
sense of hummer. You, sire, are a man after me own heart. For I
simply adore silly. As some of you already know.

Good work.


J. Jaime Gesundt and Morty
(and some of the other verses in me head)








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   Oct > Oct 21

                  Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 23:23:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:29:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez


 >From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 08:05:34 -0600

 >>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:32:32 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction

 >>>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:23:02 +0200

 >>>>Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:29:57 -0400
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction

 >>>>>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>>>Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:17:23 +0200

 >Dear Luis, John, Listers,

 >Luis, whether you want to look hard at what John has said or not
 >concerning his abduction experience(s), you might want to
 >_reconsider_ questioning the premise on which you have based
 >your doubts.

 >John said it best (snipped):

 >>In fact, just to turn the tables for a
 >>moment, I think people who are so out of touch with themselves
 >>and with the world around them to the point where they do not
 >>even trust their own faculties, are not psychologically healthy
 >>people.

 >Something really worth considering. Either we trust our senses,
 >or we don't. If you do, then you're psychologically 'sound'. If
 >you don't, or can't, there _is_ something wrong. Pretty simple.

 >Luis, it's the _pain_, real physical pain, that drives the
 >reality of those experiences home, ET related or otherwise..

Hiya Sue,

Noble try Sue. As accurate as your comments are, you're putting
the cart before the horse when you try to discuss the
personal/human aspects of the phenomenon with someone (anyone)
who does not even accept the _basic_ premise of the reports.
That is why I have taken the tack with Luis that I have adopted.

Luis and many others who presume to tell us what may or may not
be happening to us, need to address the elements of physical
evidence that in many cases is a matter of painful reality for
us, but just a minor theoretical/intellectual detail to them. If
they were taking these physical aspects/symptoms/evidence
seriously, they would not be able to proffer a purely
psychological or 'psycho-social' theory as a plausible
explanation for what we are reporting.

"What physical evidence?"

Example:

Over the last six years I have been sent nine photographs of
what is popularly referred to as the "scoop marks" that appear
on the bodies of people reporting alien contact/abduction. Budd
Hopkins has _many_ such photographs/reports. I'm certain that
Dave Jacobs, John Mack, Ray Fowler et al. have also accumulated
what may be a respectable data base of these odd scoop marks.

For those who don't know what I'm talking about, "scoop marks"
are small, circular indentations in the skin. They range in size
from an 1/8 to about 3/8's of an inch in diameter. They give the
appearance of a mark that could have been made if someone took a
very tiny mellon-baller and removed a small amount of tissue
from just under the skin. Tiny, well defined 'craters' that
"usually" appear on the arms and legs but which may appear on
other locations on the torso.

I have been contacted by _several_ physicians over the years
because of the 8 or 9 photographs of 'scoop marks' that I have
posted at my 'Abduction Information Center' website. I have an
open/standing invitation for physicians or anyone else who is a
health care, or mental health care professional to comment or
ask questions about the material that is presented at the A.I.C.
site.

All three doctors (who contacted me at different points in time
and independently of each other) wrote to me wanting to know
'where' I had gotten "so many" photographs of what they all
referred to as a 'seldom performed' procedure that they called
a, "punch biopsy."

They _all_ were struck by 'one' detail in particular; they
wanted to know "Why?" this procedure was performed on perfectly
healthy tissue. When they do get the opportunity to see one of
these punch biopsy scars it always appears over 'suspect'
looking tissue. (Skin) It turns out that "punch biopsy's,"
although seldom performed because of their physically intrusive
nature, are only performed to test tissue that may be cancerous
or other wise diseased. And in even rarer cases to collect
material for the purpose of conducting genetic testing on the
tissue samples. According to them, it is a "rarely" performed
procedure because there are much less traumatic (to body tissue)
to gather sample material for such testing.

They were _all_ equally astounded that I had "so many" examples.
I informed them all in turn that; _none_ of the cases presented
had ever had a punch biopsy performed by _any_ physician for
_any_ reason. I also informed them that the individuals involved
claimed to have received these scars as a result of UFO/alien
interaction. One of them was so upset when he received my
statements that he accused me of out and out lying to him.

_All_ of these marks that I have collected appear on the bodies
of individuals that are reporting UFO/alien contact - abduction.
These marks are a very personal issue for me as well. Myself, my
wife, and my son, _all_ have 'scoop marks' - punch biopsy scars
-  on our bodies.

Physical details such as these scoop marks - among other such
physical phenomena that appear in the abductee population - need
to be thoroughly investigated and analyzed by medical experts.
We need to know what the incidence of occurrence of identical
scars are within the general population. There is a fairly
concentrated manifestation of these scars among abductees. Like
finding a 'cancer cluster' in a small town, it is highly
significant that so many of these identical marks appear on the
bodies of those reporting abduction.

Until Luis, or any of the others who put forward purely
psychological or 'social' explanations/theories to "explain" the
details of the phenomenon we are reporting can explain the
physical manifestation of marks and scars as _unique_ and
_identical_ as the scoop marks, they will fail to fully address
the issue.

This is the kind of "evidence" (questions) that we, as
abductees, need to keep before the skeptical inquirers, Sue.
Making appeals for them to understand or relate to the more
human aspects/effects of the phenomenon on the experiencers is
like standing behind a deaf person and shouting for all your
worth. They aren't going to 'hear' you until you turn them
around and get their attention.

If this wasn't happening to me, I'd be a skeptic too. That is
why I always try to respond to honest skeptics with the kind of
information/data/conundrums such as the above. It's the kind of
information and evidence that I myself would want to hear about,
and look into, if I was on the other side of the fence. I have
been relating to Luis the way I have because he has already
prejudged us. If he was approaching the phenomenon with an open
mind, my 'tone' would be different.

Thanks for your contribution. Maybe between all of us, me in my
way and you in yours, we'll motivate a few people to actually
look into what we are reporting instead of dismissing us all out
of hand before we've had a fair hearing or investigation.


Regards,

John Velez


            A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
            www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                 johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
   "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."








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   Oct > Oct 21

               Re: Drawing of Hickson/Parker Entity - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 20:56:18 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:30:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Drawing of Hickson/Parker Entity - Tonnies


 >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 23:36:55 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Drawing of Hickson/Parker Entity

<snip>

 >Hello Mac:

 >Thanks for the artwork!

 >The top figure in the top drawing reminds me of nobody so much
 >as Phil Klass! I wonder if PK has seen this.

Ha! I can sort of see it. Anyway, I highly doubt Klass has seen
it since after reading the ignorant dismissal of the 'Face' on
Mars he provided David Jinks, Mactonnies.com is doubtlessly
_not_ one of his bookmarks!

Glad you liked the drawing.

Mac








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   Oct > Oct 21

                        Re: AA... By The By - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:05:09 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:33:04 -0400
Subject: Re: AA... By The By - Tonnies


 >From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: AA... By The By
 >Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:24:54 +1000

<snip>

 >>Coulda, maybe, possibly... doesn't cut it for me.
 >>This sort of groundless (or should I say "ungrounded")
 >>speculation is virtually meaningless.

 >Don't know if it is totally Ungrounded Richard, I surely cannot
 >say it is totally grounded on facts. More or less it is grounded
 >on observations and reports made by others. Until one of us gets
 >hold of a Grey, we will not have 100% grounded facts to work
 >with, or until the likes of the NSA/CIA share information with
 >us.

I don't know if we have alien bodies in government custody or
not. But if we do, I predict they'd be genetically engineered or
else mechanical. Like Christopher, I don't see the advantages of
sending flesh-and-bone explorers into space unless they've been
modified to exist in the medium of space--or unless their craft
do away with space conditions altogether via a form of
artificial gravity.

The Gray anatomy seems very utilitarian to me. If I had access
to an arbitrarily advances engineering technology and was asked
to design an "ideal" space explorer, I might very well come up
with something like a Gray.

Questions outweigh answers by a long shot, obviously, but I
welcome the occasional foray into pure speculation.


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 816-561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
http://mactonnies.com







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                       British MOD UFO Study Revealed!

From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 08:14:23 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 14:00:27 -0400
Subject: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!


WORLD EXCLUSIVE:
BRITAIN'S SECRET X-FILES REVEALED

For fifty years Ufologists have been searching for evidence of a
secret study by the British Ministry of Defence into the 'flying
saucer' mystery.

Now "the truth" about 'flying saucers' demanded by Winston
Churchill in 1952 can finally be revealed.

Dr David Clarke and Andy Roberts have uncovered the existence of
a dedicated 'flying saucer' study group created by British
intelligence following a wave of sightings in 1950.

During the research for our book 'Out of the Shadows' we
discovered the single surviving copy of the report by the
'Flying Saucer Working Party' - DSI/JTIC Report No 7
Unidentified Flying Objects.

This was the "full Intelligence study" referred to by the Air
Ministry in a secret briefing to Churchill in 1952. But the very
existence of such a study has been carefully concealed from the
public for almost half a century.

The investigation was conducted by a team of top intelligence
officers drawn from the MOD, RAF, Royal Navy and War Office who
worked closely with their opposite numbers in the CIA and USAF.

As one of the authors, a retired RAF Wing Commander, told us:
"Our report was never published but was circulated at the
highest level and was used as a 'yardstick' for future action."

Report No 7 was the first and only UFO study by the British
Government and has formed the basis for all official policy up
to present. It is the origin of all subsequent claims of a
cover-up and conspiracy of silence.

History-making revelations include:

*That the study was demanded by one of British MOD's most senior
scientific advisors, Sir Henry Tizard.

*Evidence that British intelligence interest in UFOs began with
the 'ghost rocket' wave of 1946.

*The first documentary evidence of close liaison between the
CIA, USAF and British MOD on UFO matters from 1947 onwards.

*Rumours of "the discovery of a crashed 'flying saucer'" in the
USA dismissed by intelligence sources.

*a detailed study of the first "radar/visual" UFO report made in
Britain by RAF aircrew.

*sightings by RAF Test Pilots of 'flying discs' that appeared
above a crowd of senior officers at the Royal Aircraft
Establishment, Farnborough.

*A series of recommendations to the Chiefs of Staff based upon
the principle of Occam's Razor.

In 1955 and again in 1962 the Under Secretary of State for Air,
Julian Ridsdale, assured Major Patrick Wall MP there "had been
no formal inquiry" in answer to a Parliamentary Question on
UFOs. This was a lie.

Following the release of Churchill's memo on flying saucers a
string of UFOlogists have been told the MOD were "unaware of
such a study" and were referred back to the answer given to
Patrick Wall.

Two years of research and detective work in the MOD Archives led
us to the "missing link." We can now reveal the facts that have
been hidden for half a century.

Read the full, amazing story exclusively at:

www.flyingsaucery.com

See also Paul Harris, 'How Churchill Chased Flying Saucers'
The Observer, 21 October 2001:

http://www.observer.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,577850,00.html












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                     How Churchill Chased Flying Saucers

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 14:08:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 14:08:12 -0400
Subject: How Churchill Chased Flying Saucers

http://www.observer.co.uk/uk_news/story/0%2C6903%2C577850%2C00.html


How Churchill Chased Flying Saucers

Paul Harris
Sunday October 21, 2001
The Observer

Scientists and generals drew up a top secret report on
Unidentified Flying Objects and then decided to cover up a wave
of rumours and sightings that swept Britain in the 1950s, The
Observer can reveal.

The existence of the UFO report, written in 1951 and later used
to brief Prime Minister Winston Churchill, was denied by the
Ministry of Defence for almost 50 years. But the six-page
document has recently been unearthed by UFO historians Andy
Roberts and David Clarke as they researched a book on UFOs and
the Cold War. The report has been a 'holy grail' of British
'ufology' and details the conclusions of a shadowy panel called
the Working Party on Flying Saucers. This group was the idea of
Sir Henry Tizard, one of Churchill's most trusted scientific
advisers during World War II and a key figure behind the
development of radar.

But anyone looking for an elusive 'X-file' that confirms the
existence of aliens will be disappointed. The report concludes
that all sightings were explainable by natural events, such as
the weather or meteors, or were of normal aircraft.

But it does speak volumes about the scale of paranoia in Britain
at the start of the Cold War. From 1950 onwards, hundreds of UFO
sightings were reported across Britain and were regular front
page news. Leading public figures, including Lord Louis
Mountbatten, came out with their belief that Earth was being
visited by aliens.

The phenomenon terrified the top brass on both sides of the
Atlantic. Generals were worried that reports of flying saucers
could be used by the Soviet Union to disguise an earthly attack
or that the sightings were giving the Russians a clue that
Britain's radar network was faulty and easy to penetrate - which
was actually true but unknown within the Soviet bloc.

'This was a time of great paranoia and fear. The Government took
a decision to throw a blanket over the UFO scare and say as
little as possible about it,' said Clarke.

'There certainly was a cover-up, but what was being covered up
was Cold War paranoia and our fears over our radar system. It
was nothing to do with aliens.'

Despite the official silence, the UFO scares did not die down.
In 1952 Churchill fired off a memo to his advisers in the wake
of fresh UFO sightings in the United States. 'What does all this
stuff about flying saucers amount to? What can it mean? What is
the truth?' Churchill wrote.

Tizard's report was then used to brief the Prime Minis ter on
the perceived lack of real threat from UFOs in August of that
year. A few months later an order went out expressly banning all
RAF personnel from discussing sightings with anyone not from the
military.

In trying to underplay the sightings, Britain was following the
lead of the United States, which had conducted several studies
into its own UFO sightings and also adopted a policy of official
secrecy. When the British report was presented, a top CIA
scientist travelled over to the meeting to make sure the
conclusions of America's closest ally fitted in.

Even today, the report is unlikely to dispel the convictions of
thousands of British UFO-believers, despite a collapse in the
number of sightings and the closure ear lier this year of the
British Flying Saucer Bureau. 'Believers will say that this
report is fake or a decoy and that the Government is still
hiding something. You cannot win,' said Roberts.

The explanation Roberts and Clarke offer for UFOs is more
prosaic than the conspiracy theories of secret alien contact. It
lies in mass hysteria. They believe the true importance of the
UFO phenomenon lies in the fact that it was an urban myth that
gained enough public power to panic the highest echelons of
British government - all the way to Winston Churchill.

paul.harris@observer.co.uk







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                       Re: AA... By The By - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:27:14 +0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 14:31:25 -0400
Subject: Re: AA... By The By - Lehmberg


 >Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:05:09 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: AA... By The By
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: AA... By The By
 >>Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:24:54 +1000

 ><snip>

 >Questions outweigh answers by a long shot, obviously, but I
 >welcome the occasional foray into pure speculation.


'Zacticly! That's what our honored ufological propeller-heads
seem to complacently forget, that but for an attitude like
_yours_ we would still be living in caves, banging rocks
together, and eating moldy bushes.

"A reach must exceed grasp, or what's a heaven for."

Speculation is not the culprit of ufological disservice. The
jealous _mainstream_ is the culprit of ufological disservice!
Reach provides for growth, and grasp is transitory. Like you,
I'll keep reaching and grab what I can!


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
www.alienview.net








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                          UFO/ET Book For Children

From: Jeff Westover <frequentflier66@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:58:53 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 14:44:44 -0400
Subject: UFO/ET Book For Children


EBK and gentle listers,

A year or so ago there was discussion on this List
concerning materials, or lack thereof, to help educate
children on the ET/UFO phenomenon.

This past summer a book, which I illustrated, titled
'Almanac of Alien Encounters' was published by Random
House, Inc.

http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0-679-87288-4


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679872884/o/qid%3D985753235/sr%3D8-1/ref
%3Daps%5Fsr%5Fb%5F1%5F1/002-2164013-5774409

The book was written specifically for the 8-12 year old crowd
and is a wonderful compendium of the historical presence of
various aspects of the UFO/ET phenomena including alternate
theories and how to contact a UFO investigator.

This book would be a nice addition to any school or public
library.


Peace,

Jeff Westover

http://www.alienalley.com/jeff1.html
http://www.crystaltower.com/jeffw








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                Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 15:44:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 17:05:08 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Aldrich


 >From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 08:14:23 +0100

 >WORLD EXCLUSIVE:
 >BRITAIN'S SECRET X-FILES REVEALED

 >For fifty years Ufologists have been searching for evidence of a
 >secret study by the British Ministry of Defence into the 'flying
 >saucer' mystery.

 >Now "the truth" about 'flying saucers' demanded by Winston
 >Churchill in 1952 can finally be revealed.

 >Dr David Clarke and Andy Roberts have uncovered the existence of
 >a dedicated 'flying saucer' study group created by British
 >intelligence following a wave of sightings in 1950.

<snip>

Congrats, Andy and David! A real coup! Great additions to your
discoveries on foo-fighters, ghost rockets and the early UFO era
documents!

I am rather deeply involved with other things right now but
would like to make two observations.

Haines' article on the CIA mentions the Working Party document.
There have been FOIA request to the CIA in on this and other
"new" documents referenced in Haines articles for nearly four
years now. No results as yet.

"Discreet Secret" would be equal at the time to the US "Top
Secret" which makes this discovery all the more important.


Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331, USA
(860) 546-9135

P.S. I would like to apologize for my misreading of your
post on the Ghost Aeroplane sighting reports. You had
definitely said that the reports went back to 1946, not 1945 as
I wrote.

Another great discovery!








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               Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 15:56:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 20:23:02 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Salvaille


 >From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 08:14:23 +0100

<snip>

 >WORLD EXCLUSIVE:
 >BRITAIN'S SECRET X-FILES REVEALED

 >For fifty years Ufologists have been searching for evidence of a
 >secret study by the British Ministry of Defence into the 'flying
 >saucer' mystery.

 >Now "the truth" about 'flying saucers' demanded by Winston
 >Churchill in 1952 can finally be revealed.

 >Dr David Clarke and Andy Roberts have uncovered the existence of
 >a dedicated 'flying saucer' study group created by British
 >intelligence following a wave of sightings in 1950.

<snip>

Dave, Andy and all,

A close reading of the documents found at your site definitely
contradicts your following comments:

      "UFO believers have claimed that the cover-up of UFO
      data was imposed to hide the fact that the American
      and British Governments possessed hard, conclusive
      evidence of ET-piloted craft. Some of the more wild
      rumours suggested the Americans had captured a saucer
      that crashed in the desert near Roswell, New Mexico,
      in 1947. The Flying Saucer Working Party report lays
      that myth to rest."

      http://www.flyingsaucery.com/mod/comment.htm

The MOD document states, on page 3:

      "We have been informed, in conversation with a member
      of the United States investigating team, that the even
      more sensational report of the discovery of a crashed
      "flying saucer", full of the remains of very small
      beings, was ultimately admitted by its author to have
      been a complete fabrication."

      http://www.flyingsaucery.com/mod/home.htm

You read any mention of Roswell?

Not.

The key notion here is: "ultimately admitted by its author to
have been a complete fabrication." This sounds quite like the
Aztec (New Mexico) UFO Hoax, where:

      "Scully claimed that a UFO had landed in Hart Canyon
      12 miles northeast of Aztec in March of 1948 and
      sixteen humanoid bodies were discovered at the crash
      site inside a metal disk that was 99.99 (not 100) feet
      in diameter."

      http://skepdic.com/aztec.html

As for the rest of this MOD report, Winston Churchill obviously
never got what he asked for: the truth about flying saucers.

Regards









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                         Re: AA... By The By - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 20:33:16 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 20:26:26 -0400
Subject: Re: AA... By The By - Hall


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >To: "- UFO UpDates Subscribers -":;
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: AA... By The By - Tonnies
 >Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 13:33:04 -0400

 >Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:05:09 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: AA... By The By
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: AA... By The By
 >>Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:24:54 +1000

 >>>Coulda, maybe, possibly... doesn't cut it for me.
 >>>This sort of groundless (or should I say "ungrounded")
 >>>speculation is virtually meaningless.

 >>Don't know if it is totally Ungrounded Richard, I surely cannot
 >>say it is totally grounded on facts. More or less it is grounded
 >>on observations and reports made by others. Until one of us gets
 >>hold of a Grey, we will not have 100% grounded facts to work
 >>with, or until the likes of the NSA/CIA share information with
 >>us.

 >I don't know if we have alien bodies in government custody or
 >not. But if we do, I predict they'd be genetically engineered or
 >else mechanical. Like Christopher, I don't see the advantages of
 >sending flesh-and-bone explorers into space unless they've been
 >modified to exist in the medium of space--or unless their craft
 >do away with space conditions altogether via a form of
 >artificial gravity.

 >The Gray anatomy seems very utilitarian to me. If I had access
 >to an arbitrarily advances engineering technology and was asked
 >to design an "ideal" space explorer, I might very well come up
 >with something like a Gray.

 >Questions outweigh answers by a long shot, obviously, but I
 >welcome the occasional foray into pure speculation.


Mac and Christopher,

My point is that I could equally speculate things that
contradict what you speculate, and we could do this endlessly
unless there is some way to test the speculations and what will
it get us?

More speculation, which is exactly what we don't need in this
field.

For example, I could speculate that the Grays are simply
advanced, evolved, biological creatures whose long history of
space travel has caused them to sacrifice muscularity and gain
larger craniums, etc.

I could even cite some space research based on human space
flight to "justify" my speculations.

I could also speculate that the Grays are images or simulacra
fed into our senory system to deceive us, and that the UFO
operators (if any) don't have anything resembling humanoid
bodies.

But there is no way to determine the truth or falsity of such
speculations short of contact and communication with the beings.

If you enjoy mental masturbation, go to it! It's your perfect
right.

I consider it a waste of time when we badly need historical and
scientific research. It's easy but meaningless.


- Dick







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               Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 17:46:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 20:28:31 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Salvaille


 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 15:44:17 -0400

 >>From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >>Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 08:14:23 +0100

<snip>

 >>WORLD EXCLUSIVE:
 >>BRITAIN'S SECRET X-FILES REVEALED

<snip>

 >Congrats, Andy and David! A real coup! Great additions to your
 >discoveries on foo-fighters, ghost rockets and the early UFO era
 >documents!

<snip>

 >"Discreet Secret" would be equal at the time to the US "Top
 >Secret" which makes this discovery all the more important.


Hello Jan,

Was there something above 'Top Secret' in the US?

When you go to:

http://www.flyingsaucery.com/mod/comment.htm

and hit the "DSI/JTIC Report No 7" link in the bottom of the
page, you get the "xtra3.jpg" graphic, a list of some documents
and their classification:

German C.W. installation at ...: Top Secret Discreet

German C.W. installation at ...: Top Secret Discreet

Russian Volvo List: Top Secret

Russian Electronics: Top Secret

Russian Manufacture of nerve gasses at ...: Top Secret Discreet

Receivers in German and Russian Remote Controlled Missiles:
Secret

Unidentified Flying Objects: Secret Discreet


Regards,







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                  Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Johnstone

From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 15:15:36 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 20:34:38 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Johnstone


 >Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:58:53 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Jeff Westover <frequentflier66@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: UFO/ET Book For Children
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>


 >A year or so ago there was discussion on this List
 >concerning materials, or lack thereof, to help educate
 >children on the ET/UFO phenomenon.

 >This past summer a book, which I illustrated, titled
 >'Almanac of Alien Encounters' was published by Random
 >House, Inc.

 >http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0-679-87288-4

<snip>

Jeff,

Thanks so much. I ordered it and also another one called Silent
Times (for me) and 'yours' for a little 8 year old I met a few
days ago, who, I just yesterday found out, is interested in
black holes and ETs.

He might like it. I think so.

Thanks a lot,

Lara







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                           Articles On Exobiology

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 00:00:34 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 20:40:52 -0400
Subject: Articles On Exobiology


If anyone on the List is looking for scientific references with
respect to exobiology, Medline has some (for a price!):


Solid Organic Matter In The Atmosphere And On The Surface Of
Outer Solar System Bodies
Author: Khare BN, Bakes EL, Cruikshank D, McKay CP.,  Volume:27
Issue:2,  Page:299-307  Year:2001
Source: Adv Space Res,    ID:11605645


Survivability Of Biomolecules During Extraterrestrial Delivery:
New Results On Pyrolysis Of Amino Acids And Poly-Amino Acids
Author: Basiuk VA, Douda J.,  Volume:27   Issue:2,  Page:231-6
Year:2001
Source: Adv Space Res,    ID:11605637


Extraterrestrial Organic Chemistry: From The Interstellar Medium
To The Origins Of Life. Part 2: Complex Organic Chemistry In The
Environment Of Planets And Satellites
Author: Raulin F, Kobayashi K.,  Volume:27   Issue:2,  Page:185-7
Year:2001
Source: Adv Space Res,    ID:11603399


Exo/Astrobiology In Europe
Author: Brack A, Horneck G, Wynn-Williams D.,  Volume:31
Issue:4-5,  Page:459-80  Year:2001 Aug-Oct
Source: Orig Life Evol Biosph,    ID:11599180


Why Biologists Should Support The Exploration Of Mars
Author: Maurel MC, Zaccai G.,  Volume:23   Issue:10,  Page:977-8
Year:2001 Oct
Source: Bioessays,    ID:11598966

These can be ordered from the National Center for Biotechnology
Information at:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Though I don't believe that they are fully catalogued yet. At
least, I was unable to order one of them - it may have been a
web site error?


Regards,

Joe








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                        Re: AA... By The By - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 20:06:51 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 07:29:31 -0400
Subject: Re: AA... By The By - Tonnies


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: AA... By The By
 >Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 20:33:16 +0000

 >>The Gray anatomy seems very utilitarian to me. If I had access
 >>to an arbitrarily advances engineering technology and was asked
 >>to design an "ideal" space explorer, I might very well come up
 >>with something like a Gray.

<snip>

 >If you enjoy mental masturbation, go to it! It's
 >your perfect right.


Richard,

I think everyone gets the point that speculation is speculation.
But your particular aversion to it, evidenced by your reaction
to my comment (see above), seems peculiarly misplaced. I don't
know the anatomy of saucer-pilots anymore than the next guy
(assuming they even have an "anatomy" as we know it), but give
me a break!


Mac
"Mental Masturbator"








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                Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 02:38:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 07:36:06 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Aldrich


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 17:46:30 -0400

 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >>Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 15:44:17 -0400

 >>>From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >>>Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 08:14:23 +0100

 ><snip>

 >>>WORLD EXCLUSIVE:
 >>>BRITAIN'S SECRET X-FILES REVEALED

 ><snip>

 >>Congrats, Andy and David! A real coup! Great additions to your
 >>discoveries on foo-fighters, ghost rockets and the early UFO era
 >>documents!

 ><snip>

 >>"Discreet Secret" would be equal at the time to the US "Top
 >>Secret" which makes this discovery all the more important.


 >Was there something above 'Top Secret' in the US?

 >When you go to:

 >http://www.flyingsaucery.com/mod/comment.htm

 >and hit the "DSI/JTIC Report No 7" link in the bottom of the
 >page, you get the "xtra3.jpg" graphic, a list of some documents
 >and their classification:

 >German C.W. installation at ...: Top Secret Discreet

 >German C.W. installation at ...: Top Secret Discreet

 >Russian Volvo List: Top Secret

 >Russian Electronics: Top Secret

 >Russian Manufacture of nerve gasses at ...: Top Secret Discreet

 >Receivers in German and Russian Remote Controlled Missiles:
 >Secret

 >Unidentified Flying Objects: Secret Discreet


Hi Serge,

Possibly in the UK system there was. I was using notes from the
Security Managers course I attended, so the comment was not one
of any great insight here. It might not be correct as the class
just hit a very few high points of the British system. I am
certainly no expert on UK security matters.

During early WWII the Americans were catching up to the British
on the handling of important security documents. After the War,
the two systems diverged somewhat.

The basic four level classifications:

Restricted
Confidential
Secret
Top Secret

are found in almost every country. Some nations might have more
or other classifications. US Army Regulation 380-5 has a section
on the equivalent classifications from other countries. The US
has/had treaties which Top Secret information was shared with
other countries. One treaty, with the Soviets, was to share
satellite images that might show aircraft crashes. This involved
TS info from both countries hence the translation of security
marks in AR 380-5.

In the US system "38 levels about Top Secret" is utter nonsense.
Compartmentalization is the way closely held information is
secured and not numerous levels of classification. The heart of
the US system is 'need to know'.

The US system does not have a classification above Top Secret,
but some time, such as in the case of the Soviet defector from
the UN. the compartment may be less than 10 people, the
President and a few others.

The above is just off the top of my head.


Regards,

Jan Aldrich








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                        Re: AA... By The By - Tophar

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:57:56 +1000
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 07:39:33 -0400
Subject: Re: AA... By The By - Tophar


 >From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: AA... By The By
 >Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 12:08:04 -0600

 >>From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: AA... By The By
 >>Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:24:54 +1000

 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>Subject: Re: AA... By The By
 >>>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:30:45 +0000

 >>>Coulda, maybe, possibly... doesn't cut it for me. This sort of
 >>>groundless (or should I say "ungrounded") speculation is
 >>>virtually meaningless.

 >>Don't know if it is totally Ungrounded Richard, I surely cannot
 >>say it is totally grounded on facts. More or less it is grounded
 >>on observations and reports made by others. Until one of us gets
 >>hold of a Grey, we will not have 100% grounded facts to work
 >>with, or until the likes of the NSA/CIA share information with
 >>us.

 >Dear Dick, Chris, Mac, Listers,

 >Need to jump in here. It's an interesting theory. Sounds pretty
 >far-fetched. I always thought plants had leaves and/or flowers.
 >Can plants be silicon-based, too? Reason I ask is that I got a
 >clue (only a clue) straight from the "horse's mouth" during one
 >of my attempts to find out answers as to what "they" were. This
 >was back in 1956.

 >I asked a basic question "A" concerning what they were, since
 >they appeared to have no belly-button, no frontal genitalia to
 >reproduce (found out later where that's located) or to eliminate
 >waste, didn't use their mouths to talk, and presumably did not
 >chew, as I looked and saw no teeth, and their heads were way too
 >large to allow for them to be born vaginally.

 >In answer to my question, "Daniel" jumped to "C" with this
 >question to me: "What kinds of life forms do you know about?" I
 >answered, "Animal, Plant, and Mineral." He nodded in the
 >affirmative, and said, "What else?" I said, "Well, you aren't a
 >rock, so you're not Mineral; you don't eat meat, do you?" "No,"
 >was the answer. "So, you're probably not Animal"; and, you don't
 >look like a Plant." Silence. No response to confirm or deny. As
 >if to say, "Bingo!" He _didn't_ say it though, so there was no
 >real confirmation. None. "So, what are you?" I said. Just then,
 >one of the smaller beings walked past and said condescendingly,
 >"Forget it! She doesn't understand. She's carbon-based, what'dya
 >expect?" I was offended and insulted. I thought I was being
 >called a dummy, with no more brains than a lump of coal! After
 >calming me down, "Daniel" said, "we're silicon-based." He showed
 >me a hologram of the DNA/RNA chains, side-by-side, but I didn't
 >understand what he was trying to teach me. I guess he was
 >showing me the differences between us and "them," but I'd never
 >seen such a bizarre piece of art. (They had shown me holograms
 >before, so that wasn't too amazing.) It looked like a 3-D
 >abstract cubical sculpture to me, with red and yellow cubes. Art
 >was my forte, science was not. Portraits were my specialty.
 >(They often checked to make sure I wasn't doing portraits of
 >them. I wasn't, but I sure did observe them like I was).
 >Besides, this happened in 1956, long before we discovered these
 >DNA/RNA chains. You can imagine how shocked I was, when in 1964,
 >while sitting in a lecture hall in biophysics, a movie was shown
 >of the 3-D chain structure of the DNA molecule. I was glad it
 >was dark in there. My eyes popped open about as wide as humanly
 >possible. Surprise! The only difference between what "Daniel"
 >had shown me in 1956 and the DNA molecule we constructed was
 >that we used cylindrical forms, "they" used cubes. Both look
 >like beautiful 3-D sculptures of art work to me. Does this help
 >or muddy the waters even more?

 >>Seems logical to me that being around such a bright light source
 >>would require some sort of protection for the eyes. The Greys
 >>are the only race of aliens reported using such light sources.
 >>So again it would be safe and logical to assume any alien with
 >>protection type filters over its eyes would be a Grey. I welcome
 >>a more complete explanation from anyone else.

 >Until I saw the AA film on the TV several years ago, I never
 >knew that the covering over their eyes was a shield. It looked
 >completely opaque when you looked into their eyes. You could not
 >see pupils behind the shields. How _did_ those "doctors" know
 >that there were eye shields over the eyes when they did the
 >dissection? Good question!

 >Also, only the very tall greys (6' or so, with bleached-white
 >skin) had these huge eyes, flat faces, thin lips, high foreheads
 >that rose symetrically until the back of the cranium met the
 >lower half, where it protruded out over the spinal column so
 >much so as to appear to be a huge tumor, with the immediate
 >impression that it seemed impossible for such a long, skinny
 >neck to support such weight without the head falling back
 >against the backbone. "Daniel's" tummy was almost flat, very
 >little definition between the waist and hips, long, legs, skinny
 >feet, transparent webbed toes and fingers. He walked with an
 >easy grace, but often held his hands in front of him. "Daniel"
 >had an extra "third finger" I think, which I think I counted as
 >his "pinkie" finger, because his "pinkie" finger was like an
 >appendage that was sorta "stuck on" like an after thought,
 >located further down on the outside of his palm. It didn't look
 >functional. He said it was. I didn't understand how he could zip
 >or button anything or write with his thumb and index finger so
 >far apart. It seemed impossible. That's when he showed me he
 >could write. When he hugged me, he smelled like amonia and
 >over-cooked hard-boiled eggs, with a tiny scent of roses. It
 >wasn't a pleasant odor. It often burned my eyes to breathe in
 >too deeply, and I would think of the famous "Dial"
 >commercial..."I use Dial. Don't you wish _everyone_ did?" I
 >think I even suggested he take a bath, that he needed one, and
 >gave him a bar of "Dial" soap as a gift. I don't think he ever
 >used it.

 >His hands reached down to his knee caps, with long upper leg
 >bones, and his knee caps were _really_ boney. I could tell that
 >much. I think that's what gave me the idea that he was wearing a
 >skin-tight suit. The indentation at the knee cap was not quite
 >so pronounced as it would have been if it was real skin and not
 >a suit. "Daniel's" fingers were so long that when I held up my
 >hand against his, he could curl his 3 (or 4) middle fingers over
 >the tops of mine and touch the back of my hand! He had claws
 >like a cat. I asked him if he could retract his claws..."nails"
 >(I corrected myself) like a cat does? He sounded offended, "No!
 >I'm not a cat!" (He cut his "claws" off after that...but not in
 >my presence). The thumb was located further down on the palm
 >than ours, closer to where our wrist bone begins. It was very
 >difficult for him to hold a pencil the way we do, because of
 >these anatomical differences, and he ended up pressing way too
 >hard, breaking the lead. Instead, he held the next pen I got him
 >between his index and third fingers. He wrote my name and his,
 >from right-to-left, dropped down a line, and wrote from
 >left-to-right. It looked like a cross between Gregg Shorthand
 >and Arabic writing. At the time, none the letters looked
 >remotely similar, except for the "E" in my name. "Daniel" told
 >me that they did not have a sound for each letter, that the
 >characters were whole words or thoughts. Talk about shorthand!
 >After learning Gregg shorthand, I realized how similar some of
 >the characters actually are.

 >"Daniel" sometimes wore a hooded, silvery cape (studded with
 >reflective sequins or stones?) that was knee-high. He used to
 >take it off with such a dramatic flare. One of the smaller
 >beings would stand behind him and take it from him. Only once
 >did I see him and his buddies _unzip_ and take off what looked
 >like white, cotton(?) flightsuits in a hurry, after "Daniel"
 >realized I was inspecting the insignia closely. It had an emblem
 >on the upper right arm that at first appeared to be an Air Force
 >insignia. On closer inspection, it looked like a cross between
 >the Air Force "Wings" insignia of a Sargeant and the American
 >Medical Assoc. insignia of a snake through a triangle. Once, I
 >saw "Daniel" wearing a fake goutee and a mask. I realized it was
 >him, and asked him to take it off. It looked dumb. I thought he
 >was play-acting with me.

 >The shorter beings (4' or so) had much smaller eyes, also
 >opaque, but not nearly as large, greyish-skin color, very
 >staulkily built, walked as though they were bow-legged
 >(wobble-wobble walk though I never saw their legs), wore
 >floor-length hooded monk's tunics and capes, made of what looked
 >like potato sacks (no kidding). They smelled like moist potting
 >soil. These beings took orders from the taller ones, like
 >"Daniel," and were much more able to express emotion, even
 >showing joy, jumping up and down when excited about something I
 >had delighted in experiencing. (You'd never in a million years
 >see "Daniel" jumping up and down with glee.) They were my usual
 >"teachers" growing up. In 1992, I later saw one of these beings
 >wearing a well-tailored, perfectly pressed, baby-blue military
 >uniform, replete with gold-braided shoulder epaulettes. He was
 >co-piloting a "mini-jet" UFO through the Tijeras Canyon in NM. I
 >never got a good look at the pilot. I suspect he was a being
 >similar in make-up to "Daniel" based on his reactions.

 >Then there were the "Little People." They looked just like the
 >trolls in the "Billy Goat Gruff" stories. I did not associate
 >them with "good little elves," as in the folk story, "The Elves
 >and the Shoemaker." They were tiny, hairy, beady little opaque
 >black eyes, strong, short (3' or shorter), pug faces, wore all
 >black, sometimes hooded, sometimes wearing little bells on their
 >clothes (sound familiar?). They were the ones that would
 >initially show up (like the advance force of the Marines), scare
 >the crap out of me, chasing me around the house, or if I refused
 >to run, would taunt me to "come out and play" (in the middle of
 >the night). They were subordinate to the other beings, and made
 >sure everyone was kept sound asleep in the house, while I was
 >being abducted by the others.

 >Then were were the reptoids. They were human in form only. They
 >looked like praying mantis with coppery brown scales all over
 >their bodies. He walked like he had a catch in his git-a-long,
 >stiff, having to lift his long, insect like legs way up in
 >front. If he had been able to stand perfectly upright (which I
 >think was impossible), he would have been taller than 6', closer
 >to 7'. He wore no clothes. He even had scales on his fingers,
 >and his long claws were dirty. They had nasty temperments and
 >very little sense of humor. One of my first physical exams was
 >given by one of these creeps, and I looked him over _very_
 >carefully. The irises of his eyes were yellow, and the pupils of
 >his eyes were shaped like a cat's, not round. He said to me,
 >noticing how closely I was observing him, "Only a face a mother
 >could love?" I said, "I don't understand what you mean." He
 >said, "You think I'm ugly." I said, "Well, you're different
 >looking. My father says you can't judge a book by it's cover."
 >At the time, I was only in the 4th grade. He proved himself over
 >the years. He was one mean, ugly creep, as malevolent and
 >manipulative as they come. If I saw him again, I'd cut his guts
 >out without any hesitation. After the last pas-de-deux with him,
 >he has wisely not shown himself. If he's smart, he won't.
 >Otherwise, you all will have several viable pieces of physical
 >evidence to examine, albeit at least one anatomical appendage
 >may be "relocated" to a different area of the body. I'm sure
 >you'd recognize it.

 >Think again, if you think I like _all_ of them. I'm very
 >particular about who I call a "friend." Plants? Some beings may
 >be. The reptoid? I doubt it. He's an animal.


Dear Sue, List and others,

Thank you for sharing that with us Sue, it was very insightful.
I personally won't take anything a Grey told me as being Gospel.
They are masters of counter-intelligence. If they are that
up-front and honest, why don't they just plug-in to our TV net
works and announce they are here and want to be friends?
Wouldn't be hard to do and it would be a safe way to contact us
with-out fear of being used and abused by any one group or
country looking to advance their own technology unfairly.

But they don't do this, they choose to appear as if they do not
even exist. Then there is the question of why they treated you
the way they did Sue? They seem to know a lot about humans so
what is the examination all about? I can see an examination
having its merits if it is a first contact situation. But it
isn't.

One also has to remember, if we do know a lot about them and it
turns out they are up to no good, then we will know how to
defeat them. So I cannot see them letting us know to much about
them.

Anyway, you seem to be coping well Sue and you are in good
health regardless of your ordeal, which is what really matters.

Oh and by saying 'up to no good', I mean 'the collecting of
resources'. Something all life through-out the Universe has in
common. All life needs resources to exist. Some life forms like
us and the Aliens need great amounts and a variety of resources.
One thing I dare say no-one can dispute is the fact, that if
there are aliens. They would need resources to build their
craft, for food and to power their craft.

So were do they get all of these resources? Could it be that
these resources are being taken right out from under our eyes?
This could be why they are so keen on not appearing to exist,
because if we found out this was the case, I dare say we
wouldn't be overly pleased about it and we might even do
something about it. Personally I feel this is the case and it is
why the Grey don't want other races making contact with us. The
US Military was said to have been told not to have anything to
do with the greys, WHY? Did the USAF ECT find out the dark truth
about the Greys? and is this why it looked like someone from
Earth was firing at a UFO in some flim footage from one of the
space shuttles missions?

Well enough of that, plants were around long before any animals
were. It can be said that all animal and insect life forms stem
from plants or they had their start from plant DNA. It would
take some preparation of plant DNA for use with Human DNA. But
not as much as one would think, I hate to think of the kinds of
experiments that would have brought this about though.

One wouldn't look like a plant, the whole point is to create a
versatile unit/body that will cope well in the conditions that
life in space demands and the conditions produced by the
magnetic drive units used for travel. So only some plant DNA
would be used and I dare say this was not the only DNA used.
Plants also live for a long time, I was given a RV'ing of a Grey
over 1000 feet tall and being around 100,000 years old. I didn't
believe this until I found an article about there being a mother
ship of the greys that was over 1500 miles wide. That's one
mother of a ship. If it is true, then OMG how much resources
must that sucker use up? That thing in area would be much the
same as the whole of Australia and Tasmania.

Given the low gravity in space, I can see this old large grey
being possible but as far as I am concerned the jury is still
out for the moment on this one.

Does anyone have a link or also know about these claims of such
a large mother ship? I didn't get to see where the large Alien
was that I RV'ed. It was a second hand memory from someone else.
I do believe I had a Remote Viewing as someone turned up and
tried to look into my mind one night shortly after I was given
the RV by the people in question regarding the large grey. They
were RV'ing me alright, I got quite violent with one of them as
I wasn't expecting it.

He apologised for doing this, which had me thinking how did he
know? As it was someone I had made friends with on the net but
didn't tell him about what was I doing in relation to the RV'ing
of the large grey. He just came out with the apology in one of
our chats. He was the last person on Earth I thought would be
trying to RV me.

I had the strangest feeling that this RV'er was a company
produced one. (by company I mean CIA/NSA) I started doing some
strange things and thinking strange things after that encounter
with him, it took me some time to fight those strange impulses I
was having and to stop what these impulses were making me do.

Well I have gotten off the track once more, if anyone has a link
or information on that mother ship I would be grateful for same.


Cheers

Tophar









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 22

                Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clarke

From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:10:17 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 07:46:20 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clarke


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 15:56:45 -0400

 >>From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >>Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 08:14:23 +0100

 >A close reading of the documents found at your site definitely
 >contradicts your following comments:

 >     "UFO believers have claimed that the cover-up of UFO
 >     data was imposed to hide the fact that the American
 >     and British Governments possessed hard, conclusive
 >     evidence of ET-piloted craft. Some of the more wild
 >     rumours suggested the Americans had captured a saucer
 >     that crashed in the desert near Roswell, New Mexico,
 >     in 1947. The Flying Saucer Working Party report lays
 >     that myth to rest."

 >     http://www.flyingsaucery.com/mod/comment.htm

 >The MOD document states, on page 3:

 >     "We have been informed, in conversation with a member
 >     of the United States investigating team, that the even
 >     more sensational report of the discovery of a crashed
 >     "flying saucer", full of the remains of very small
 >     beings, was ultimately admitted by its author to have
 >     been a complete fabrication."

 >     http://www.flyingsaucery.com/mod/home.htm

 >You read any mention of Roswell?

 >Not.


Hi Serge,

You are completely correct, the DSI report does refer to Aztec
not to Roswell - but you completely miss the point, or chose to
ignore the obvious conclusion, that is summed up in my next
paragraph:

"If the Americans did recover a crashed UFO at Roswell, then
clearly their closest allies did not have sufficient 'need to
know.'"

Best Wishes

Dave Clarke









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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 22

                        Re: AA... By The By - Tophar

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 21:38:53 +1000
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 07:52:36 -0400
Subject: Re: AA... By The By - Tophar


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: AA... By The By
 >Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 20:33:16 +0000

 >>Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:05:09 -0700 (PDT)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: AA... By The By
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: AA... By The By
 >>>Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:24:54 +1000


 >My point is that I could equally speculate things that
 >contradict what you speculate, and we could do this endlessly
 >unless there is some way to test the speculations and what will
 >it get us?

 >More speculation, which is exactly what we don't need in this
 >field.


Good point Richard, but speculation is all we really have to
work with here. This does not scare me, nor am I deterred. I
know am but a humble researcher living and research in the
shadow of greater persons. Galileo, Copernicus, Newton, to name
but a very few, had no more to work with than we do. Still it
didn't stop them changing the way we see and think about the
Universe. I don't think for a second that I would remotely
message up to the greatest of these great people but I do use
them for my inspiration and guidance. How they worked through
the maze of the unknown is nothing short of unbelievable.

So in their footsteps do I dare to walk. I would love to know
just what Copernicus thought of UFOs as he is my favourite. If
he was to appear before me and tell me UFOs aren't real I would
probably believe him.

But he has shown me that what we see is not always as it appears
to be. We must look closely and ask many question, while working
hard to uncover the truth. Now I am not saying I know the truth,
it would be stupid of me to say this. My reasoning in based on
what I feel would a safe bet or a means by which to live long
team in outer space, based I what we have at hand to work with
here on Earth.

NASA has spent billions of dollars and a number of years working
on a solution to the this problem of Humans living and
travelling large distance in space. At the end of the day, NASA
found the human body wasn't up to the task. My friend at NASA
told me (off the record), that NASA was looking at something
along the idea of putting astronauts into some sort of long
sleep to get around the problem we are talking about here, for a
trip to say Mars. What NASA and alike says "Off the record" and
what their will say "For the record" is so different. Why is
this subject so hard for some to deal with? I'm not living in
the 14th century am I? This is the year 2001 is it not?

 >For example, I could speculate that the Grays are simply
 >advanced, evolved, biological creatures whose long history of
 >space travel has caused them to sacrifice muscularity and gain
 >larger craniums, etc.

 >I could even cite some space research based on human space
 >flight to "justify" my speculations.

 >I could also speculate that the Grays are images or simulcra
 >fed into our senory system to deceive us, and that the UFO
 >operators (if any) don't have anything resembling humanoid
 >bodies.

 >But there is no way to determine the truth or falsity of such
 >speculations short of contact and communication with the beings.

Yes and no Richard, Though, in the spirit of true research, few
if any before us had very much more to work with, but they
worked out things like the Earth being round, the Earth orbiting
the Sun not the other way around, ECT ECT. Let nothing stand in
ones way, for the truth is but a question away.

 >If you enjoy mental masturbation, go to it! It's your perfect
 >right.

I'm not too sure about this one as I have a girl friend so I
don't masturbate per-say. Besides, my girlfriend would cut my
hands off if she caught me doing things like that. But I do
think a lot about how we came to be and how all matter found its
origin. Is this the same thing? My girlfriend tells me her brain
starts to hurt when I start talking about things like that, I
haven't owned up to it yet, but so does mine. <LOL>

 >I consider it a waste of time when we badly need historical and
 >scientific research. It's easy but meaningless.

Wow, don't we all wish for such a gift! But I'm not one for
waiting around holding my breath for this to appear out of
no-where. Until this GIFT makes itself known, I for one will
work on regardless. As for scientific research! I didn't know
the scientific world saw what we do as being scientific yet or
would agree with anything we find or theorised about as being
scientific. Maybe I am wrong here.

At this point, it is interesting to note that NASA, or should I
say an ex-astronaut, has said on one of these Discovery type
shows on TV, that NASA felt that a human child conceived and
born in space would have a large head, a small body with thin
long arms and legs. Sound familiar?


Tophar










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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 22

                    Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Tophar

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 22:02:33 +1000
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 08:24:36 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Tophar



 >Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 15:15:36 -0700
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children

 >>Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:58:53 -0700 (PDT)
 >>From: Jeff Westover <frequentflier66@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: UFO/ET Book For Children
 >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>A year or so ago there was discussion on this List
 >>concerning materials, or lack thereof, to help educate
 >>children on the ET/UFO phenomenon.

 >>This past summer a book, which I illustrated, titled
 >>'Almanac of Alien Encounters' was published by Random
 >>House, Inc.

 >>http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0-679-87288-4

 ><snip>

 >Jeff,

 >Thanks so much. I ordered it and also another one called Silent
 >Times (for me) and 'yours' for a little 8 year old I met a few
 >days ago, who, I just yesterday found out, is interested in
 >black holes and ETs.

It isn't until (well at least for me) you are confronted with
the inquiring mind of a child that you start to question your
own beliefs. This is something I have experienced first hand and
failed at miserably. I really didn't know what to say to a child
asking me these kind of questions.

I have to say I told them that Aliens aren't real, I still
cannot believe I say this. I sure as hell don't believe what I
told them, was I saying this to protect them, shielding them
from the truth or was I just making sure they wouldn't be
laughed at by other children? I think it was the latter.

Nice to see someone is brave enough to take on this minefield,
they are sure braver than I will ever be, bravo to Eric Elfman.

A book I will keep in my library for the next time I am asked.
Thanks for pointing it out Jeff.

Tophar









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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 22

                Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Strickland

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:40:57 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 08:29:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Strickland


 >Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 23:23:51 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction

 >>From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 08:05:34 -0600

 >>>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:32:32 -0400
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction

 >>>>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>>Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:23:02 +0200

 >>>>>Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:29:57 -0400
 >>>>>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction

 >>>>>>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>>>>Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:17:23 +0200

Hi John, Luis, Listers,

 >Noble try Sue. As accurate as your comments are, you're putting
 >the cart before the horse when you try to discuss the
 >personal/human aspects of the phenomenon with someone (anyone)
 >who does not even accept the _basic_ premise of the reports.
 >That is why I have taken the tack with Luis that I have adopted.

Of course, you may be correct in your approach. But, I gotta
tell you, I'm better with a .28 semi-automatic shotgun than a
rifle. You might have guessed that from my general approach to
this whole phenomenon. I hit 78% of what I aim at with the
shotgun, as opposed to only 60% with the rifle. My husband goes
elk hunting with his other buddies, and pheasant/chukar hunting
with me and our blind dog. Even our blind dog trusts his senses
better than some of the people on this list. Groan.

<snip>

 >All three doctors (who contacted me at different points in time
 >and independently of each other) wrote to me wanting to know
 >'where' I had gotten "so many" photographs of what they all
 >referred to as a 'seldom performed' procedure that they called
 >a, "punch biopsy."

One other reason these doctors may be concerned. 'Punch
biopsies' are done very differently than they were back when
'mellon-ballers' were used. You'd have to check to find out when
the 'mellon-ball' procedure was eliminated and replaced by the
newer procedure. My guess is that the new procedure was used
almost exclusively as soon as it was invented, due in part to
its less invasive, nearly painless, little or no need for
general anethesia, and out-patient adaptability. I would guess
that it was of considerable interest to these doctors to know
the date, especially the year, that the people in the pictures
first noticed the "scoop marks," and when the pictures were
taken. I'm not surprised that the one doctor called you a liar.
I'm just so very saddened by it. It is indicative of how far we
have to go.

I had several 'punch biopsies' done in 1995. They don't use a
'mellon-baller' anymore, which term may have originated from the
physical force required to extract tissue samples of an affected
area with such a crude instrument. I imagine the term just "hung
on," even after the procedure changed.

I can only speak about 'punch biopsies' in relation to breast
cancer, so there may be lots of other iterations of the same
procedure used for other forms of cancer. I don't know. With
that in mind, perhaps someone on the list can "broaden" the
scope of this discussion.

For breast cancer, preliminary mammograms are first taken to
show suspicious tumors. If a "punch biopsy" is deemed necessary,
the instrument used now does not, in any way, shape or form,
resemble a "mellon baller." To perform a "punch biopsy" a
10"-long metal syringe is used, 2-1/2" in diameter, with a 10"
needle attached, measuring about 1/4" in diameter. It looks like
something out of Dr. Frankenstein's lab, but the procedure
doesn't hurt. It's actually very interesting to watch. Novocaine
is used to deaden the affected area, and the big needle is
inserted as deeply as necessary to reach the tumor(s). At that
point, tissue from the tumor(s) is extracted, drawn up into the
needle and syringe and deposited on a slide. The tissue can be
examined right there under a microscope to determine if the
tissue is cancerous. So, the patient knows within 10 minutes if
he/she has cancer. For those tumors which prove cancerous, a
little more novocaine is applied to the area, and a tiny little
cut is made closest to the tumor(s) showing cancer, so that a
bigger piece can be quickly removed and sent to the lab to
determine the type of cancer. A stitch or two and you're outta
there. A bruise about the size of a quarter is all that shows
after all that. No big deal. "Mellon ballers" are out, except
when scooping large quantities of tissue, like in an operating
room, where the contents of the entire breast must be removed.

 >Physical details such as these scoop marks - among other such
 >physical phenomena that appear in the abductee population - need
 >to be thoroughly investigated and analyzed by medical experts.
 >We need to know what the incidence of occurrence of identical
 >scars are within the general population.

It might be of some use to find out what year the punch-biopsy
procedure changed from the general use of a mellon baller to
syringe and needle? Many doctors, although aware that the 'old'
procedure is rarely used now, may not be aware just exactly when
the old procedure was replaced with the new. Knowing this
information may strengthen the argument and possibility of a UFO
abduction scenario, both in the docs' minds as they contemplate
such a bizarre possibility; and, to help validate the reality of
the incident for the abductees, as they relate the belief of
their experience to others. This would be especially true for
all those people whose "punch biopsy scars" showed up _after_
the old procedure was replaced with the new.

Like you said, John, it's difficult to argue with factual
information. I think you're onto something here.


Lotsa luck,

Sue









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   Oct > Oct 22

                  Ex-Chilean Naval Chief - "UFOs Are Real"

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:57:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:32:54 -0400
Subject: Ex-Chilean Naval Chief - "UFOs Are Real"


Former Chilean Chief of Naval Operations: UFOs are Real

 From Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center
ufomiami@prodigy.net

10-21-1

Santiago de Chile - The former Chilean Chief of Naval
Operations, Admiral Jorge Martinez declared that "UFOs are
real". The ex-CNO made the shocking statement during an
interview with a Chilean television network. The interview was
conducted by journalist Rodrigo Ugarte from Teletrece, in Chile.
The retired admiral admitted that he personally witnessed the
sighting of two UFOs at sea.

According to Admiral Martinez, when he was a young lieutenant,
he personally saw a very luminous white object in front of his
patrol boat. When he took command of his first destroyer, then
Captain Martinez saw another similar object emerging from the
water, creating a strong interference with the navigation system
and the ship's radar.

Guillermo Jimenez, another former Chilean officer claimed that
the sonar system onboard his ship detected two submarine-like
objects that caused similar malfunctions with shipboard
electronics. "They displayed the same size and metallic resonant
characteristics that ordinary subs typically show; however,
these objects were too fast to be submarines", said Jimenez.

Both Jimenez and Martinez described how the gyrocompass systems
were out of control. "The radar displays went completely blank
and the gyro was spinning very rapidly, as if a strong magnetic
force was present", said Admiral Martinez.

Some UFO investigators call this phenomenon "UUO" or
unidentified underwater objects. Upon learning about this
special report, we contacted the Chilean journalist that
conducted the interviews. Rodrigo Ugarte, the Teletrece
interviewer told us that there were many other officers
that described similar events but did not want to go on the air
with their accounts. Nevertheless, this is the first time a
former Chief of Naval Operations reveals that these phenomena
are real.


Mario Andrade

editor@cronosdigital.net










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                     The Watchdog (e-update) - 10-22-01

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:52:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:39:50 -0400
Subject: The Watchdog (e-update) - 10-22-01


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piloting. The pilot has hired an attorney as the government
claims possession of the film.

***NEWS***
~ Former Chilean Navy Chief Says, "UFOs Are Real."
~ How Churchill Chased Flying Saucers
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~ Third Case of Pure Hemoglobin Found At Mutilation Site
~ Ed Dames: Full of It and Then Some
~ Circles Grow More Complex

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you've been the victim of fraud? Do you have information about
this hoax? Visit:

http://24.183.209.135/alientrack/








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                Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Roberts

From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:52:57 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:41:31 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Roberts


 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 02:38:10 -0400

Jan wrote:

 >I am certainly no expert on UK security matters.

 >The basic four level classifications:

 >Restricted
 >Confidential
 >Secret
 >Top Secret

 >are found in almost every country.

At the time of the Flying Saucer Working Party the UK had five
specific security designations. The following as quotes from an
internal MOD document (* denotes original italics):

TOP SECRET: With certain exceptions a Top Secret grading on an
original paper can only authorised by a Wing Commander (Group
Captain at Air Ministry) or civilian equivalent. The marking
should be placed only on those papers which, int he wrong hands,
would *cause exceptionally grave damage to the nation*. Clearly
very few papers justify this description.

SECRET: A Secret paper can be originated by any commissioned
officer provided he considers that *our national security would
be endangered* if it fell into unfriendly hands.

CONFIDENTIAL: A Confidential stamp is used by a commissioned
officer to safeguard information which, if compromised, would
*prejudice our national interest or prestige*, or which from a
staff point of view would cause *administrative embarrassment or
difficulty*.

RESTRICTED: Restricted is the lowest grading giving security
protection, and applies to matters which should not be published
or made known to anyone except for official purposes.

UNCLASSIFIED: If a fact does not normally need to be kept within
the official net, it is considered to be Unclasssified. A very
great weight of officially produced papers can properly fall
within this category, and can be placed in our shop window.

Worth noting that the Flying Saucer Working Party report was
only designated as SECRET, and that it was also cleared for
Canada.


Happy Trails

Andy









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                    Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:07:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:44:31 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Velez


 >Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:58:53 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Jeff Westover <frequentflier66@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: UFO/ET Book For Children
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >EBK and gentle listers,

 >A year or so ago there was discussion on this List
 >concerning materials, or lack thereof, to help educate
 >children on the ET/UFO phenomenon.

 >This past summer a book, which I illustrated, titled
 >'Almanac of Alien Encounters' was published by Random
 >House, Inc.

 >http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0-679-87288-4

 >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679872884/o/qid%3D985753235/sr %3D8-1/
ref%3Daps%5Fsr%5Fb%5F1%5F1/002-2164013-5774409

 >The book was written specifically for the 8-12 year old crowd
 >and is a wonderful compendium of the historical presence of
 >various aspects of the UFO/ET phenomena including alternate
 >theories and how to contact a UFO investigator.

 >This book would be a nice addition to any school or public
 >library.


Hi Jeff, hi All,

This is so very sad for me to hear.

I _love_ kids. I have raised two of my own to adulthood, and I
am currently a grandfather of three, with one more 'on the way.';)

To my way of thinking, introducing children of the age group
that this book is aimed at to UFO/ET phenomena including (of all
things) how to contact a UFO investigator, is completely wrong.
It seems to me that such a book could only serve to codify a set
of 'beliefs' in the impressionable minds of the young ones who
read it.

I would not either confirm or deny the existence of such things
for a ten or twelve year old, and I routinely advise parents who
contact me to do likewise. What I do suggest for them to do is;
to "be there" for the child. Without reinforcing _any_ belief
system,  and simply "listen" (act as an impartial sounding
board) if/when the kids bring up the subject of their own
volition. "Introduce" it... never.

As a parent I'd like to know 'which' cases are cited in order to
"introduce" the phenomenon to a youngster. Which "UFO
investigators" are these children and their parents being
pointed at. Carpenter? Boylan? Is the subject of alien abduction
being introduced as well?

If so, has any consideration been given to the fact that; a ten
or twelve year old who 'may be' having disturbing UFO/alien
experiences already, and who has not yet made any connection
between those experiences and UFOs/aliens (on their own,) are
being "introduced" to an "explanation" that they may wrongly (or
rightly) accept and cling to for life?

Cheeses, Mary, and Joseph, talk about "contamination"!

Fact: A ten or a twelve year old does not yet have the
intellectual or emotional/psychological foundation and skills to
deal with such a complex concept. Especially if they have been
having unsettling experiences themselves. They don't have the
coping skills needed. Skills that only come with knowledge,
education, and most-times 'hard earned' life experience.

Many adults will read a medical text and start to think they
have all the diseases that they are reading about. How much more
would this effect manifest in a young child reading about UFOs,
aliens, or worse yet alien abduction. If "abduction" is
discussed in the book, is the kindly space brother concept being
"introduced" as well? Has any consideration been given to the
fact that a child who may not be having UFO/alien experiences
might become frightened to death? What about the ones who are
having such experiences but who have not been considering them
as "reality?" Who is supposed to calm their fears or terror
during each subsequent night?

Sorry, I just don't 'cotton' to the idea of involving children
in what is on any level, a completely disturbing phenomenon. I
was in my 40's when I "made the connection." I _barely_ had the
coping skills I needed myself in order to maintain my sanity and
my perspective. What chance does a ten year old have?

This is wrong man. It's one thing if someone who has reached
adulthood chooses to investigate this unsettling subject. It is
their choice, their decision to do so. To "introduce" children
to it is something that strikes me as completely wrong, and even
bordering on a form of psychological child abuse.

Please, no need to respond. I'm not looking to "debate,"  I'm
only voicing my own opinions. My opinions and a $1.50 will get
me on a bus.  :)


Speaking strictly for myself,

John Velez
Concerned dad

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









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   Oct > Oct 22

               Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:19:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:46:01 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Salvaille


 >From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:10:17 +0100

 >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >>Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 15:56:45 -0400

 >>>From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >>>Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 08:14:23 +0100

<snip>

 >>You read any mention of Roswell?

 >>Not.


 >Hi Serge,

 >You are completely correct, the DSI report does refer to Aztec
 >not to Roswell - but you completely miss the point, or chose to
 >ignore the obvious conclusion, that is summed up in my next
 >paragraph:

 >"If the Americans did recover a crashed UFO at Roswell, then
 >clearly their closest allies did not have sufficient 'need to
 >know.'"

<snip>

Hello Dave,

You did a great job uncovering the documents and your comments
give a good indication of its content. The images of the
originals are a great addition.

Your conclusion on Roswell stems from the assumption that the
MOD was referring to Roswell. It was not. It was referring to
the Aztec hoax. But the lack of any reference to Roswell in the
document may give weight to your same conclusion... Or not ;)

Considering the tone of the document - an evident dismissal of
any value of the UFO subject, it is quite surprising that the
"experts" did not jump on the occasion to debunk Roswell, a task
as easy as debunking Aztec.

Why not mention it?

Did the MOD ever perform a real evaluation of the situation?
Looks like they have been somewhat briefed by the American
authorities and blindly trusted them - an understandable
position at that time in history. Hynek once said about the USAF
that they simply didn't care about UFOs. The British MOD experts
show the same attitude: they uncritically adhered to the Grudge
project conclusions and _then_ went on to justify their
position, hastily and quickly nullifying the quality of the
cases they included in their report.

We all know that Grudge was an effort to put UFOs in the
cupboard. The same may well apply to this report.

Do you think Churchill got the "Truth About Flying Saucers" ?

Regards









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                  Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:09:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:18:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez


 >From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:40:57 -0600

 >>Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 23:23:51 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction


Hi Sue, hi All,

 >>Noble try Sue. As accurate as your comments are, you're putting
 >>the cart before the horse when you try to discuss the
 >>personal/human aspects of the phenomenon with someone (anyone)
 >>who does not even accept the _basic_ premise of the reports.
 >>That is why I have taken the tack with Luis that I have adopted.

 >Of course, you may be correct in your approach. But, I gotta
 >tell you, I'm better with a .28 semi-automatic shotgun than a
 >rifle. You might have guessed that from my general approach to
 >this whole phenomenon. I hit 78% of what I aim at with the
 >shotgun, as opposed to only 60% with the rifle. My husband goes
 >elk hunting with his other buddies, and pheasant/chukar hunting
 >with me and our blind dog. Even our blind dog trusts his senses
 >better than some of the people on this list. Groan.

Shotgun eh? <LOL>Maybe it's just my Latin blood, but I like the
surgical precision that my 'scalpel' affords me.  :)  That way I
can 'cut' out the prejudice without harming the surrounding healthy
mental structures.  :)

 >>All three doctors (who contacted me at different points in time
 >>and independently of each other) wrote to me wanting to know
 >>'where' I had gotten "so many" photographs of what they all
 >>referred to as a 'seldom performed' procedure that they called
 >>a, "punch biopsy."

 >I had several 'punch biopsies' done in 1995. They don't use a
 >'mellon-baller' anymore,

I never said that they did! I used a "tiny mellon-baller" as
kind of mental visual aid to help describe for those who have
never seen a scoop mark, what one looks like. I had no idea that
the instrument actually used in the procedure either resembled
or _was_ a "mellon-baller". I simply coined an appropriately
descriptive phrase. It was just a way for me to paint a picture
with words. I'm a bit shocked that doctors would have actually
used something as crude as anything that even resembles a
'mellon-baller' to remove tissue from a person's body. Yuck! I
wouldn't let a doctor within ten miles of me with a 'mellon-
baller' tiny or not! Although, I have had a liver biopsy where
the doctor used the large needle to gather a tissue sample as
you described. If he had pulled out a "mellon-baller" to do it,
I would have run away in my paper gown screaming.  <LOL>

Regards,

John

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."








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   Oct > Oct 22

                   Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:55:01 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:40:46 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Tonnies


 >Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:07:39 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children

<snip>

 >To my way of thinking, introducing children of the age group
 >that this book is aimed at to UFO/ET phenomena ncluding (of all
 >things) how to contact a UFO investigator, is completely wrong.
 >It seems to me that such a book could only serve to codify a set
 >of 'beliefs' in the impressionable minds of the young ones who
 >read it.

John, List,

I know precisely where you're coming from. Nevertheless, it was
books on alien contact and the UFO phenomenon that thrilled and
fascinated me when I was in elementary school.  I knew all the
case histories, counter-arguments, theories and sightings, and I
don't think it messed me up (although certain readers of my
website might disagree :)

In fact, I think the subject challenged and inspired me in
numerous ways, and I'm grateful for tbe experience.

I enthusiastically agree with you that children dealing with
reality-bending issues such as the abuction phenomenon shouldn't
be tainted with reactionary views of self-proclaimed "experts."
But if the child in question is bright, s/he's going to seek
such material out anyway--and hopefully be able to make up his
or her own mind about the accuracy and trustworthiness of the
source in question.



=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 816-561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
http://mactonnies.com








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   Oct > Oct 23

               Daylight Disc Taped By Hungarian Military Pilot

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:30:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:30:40 -0400
Subject: Daylight Disc Taped By Hungarian Military Pilot


http://rense.com/general15/pilotufo.htm

"World Exclusive!
  Stunning Daylight Disc Taped By Hungarian Military Pilot"









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                     Eras News: Weekly Briefing 10.22.01

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 21:07:08 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:10:26 -0400
Subject: Eras News: Weekly Briefing 10.22.01


ERAS NEWS
The E-News Service of The Eras Project

http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

October 22, 2001

_____________________________


WEEKLY BRIEFING
10.22.01


Eight More Planets Discovered Around Nearby Stars

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1600000/1600716.stm


Mars Odyssey: Why Failure Is Not an Option

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/odyssey_option_011022.html


Landing Sites for 2003 Mars Exploration Rovers Mission
Identified

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/missions/mars_2003_landings_011019.html


Astronomers Close in on Solar System's 'Siblings'

http://www.aao.gov.au/press/planets-16oct01.html


Stephen Hawking Advocates Colonies in Space

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/10/16/nhawk16.x
ml&sSheet=/news/2001/10/16/ixhome.html


Dashing Through the Snows of Io

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast16oct_1.htm


Daylight Disk Filmed by Hungarian Military Pilot

http://www.rense.com/general15/pilotufo.htm


Britains' First 'Designer Baby'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/genes/article/0,2763,574223,00.html


____________________________


The Eras Project is a non-profit future studies project focusing
on the leading-edge news, events, ideas and discoveries that
will shape the future of humanity as we enter the 21st Century
and a new Era.

Eras News is the e-news service of TEP, providing the latest
news, reports and updates, including the Weekly Briefing, sent
free to your e-mail.

To subscribe to Eras News, send a blank e-mail to:
erasnews-subscribe@topica.com


Eras News Archive:
http://www.topica.com/lists/erasnews/read


THE ERAS PROJECT

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

� The Eras Project, 2001









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   Oct > Oct 23

                       A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'!

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:28:51 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:18:07 -0400
Subject: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'!


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:28:31 EDT
 >Subject: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'!
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >There is something terribly wrong with any perceived abductee
 >who cannot tolerate a skeptic. By the same token, there is
 >something terribly wrong with any skeptic who cannot admit, even
 >to the remote possibility that the phenomena is real, i.e., the
 >skeptibunker.

 >What are you?

<snip>

Your silogism is not equilibrated. On one side, you simply ask
for tolerance on the part of abductees. On the other, you ask
the skeptic to renounce to all his knowledge _without_ offering
enough evidence.

Of course, there is_nothing_ in our scientific knowledge which
denies the possibility of alien beings arriving here, and even
abducting some specimens for their research. I do admit that
possibility. What I do not admit is any of the contradictory
scenarios derived from the abduction narratives we know
nowadays. I am completly sure that when (if) the aliens meet us
anytime in the future, there will not be any space left for
doubting.

 >And all which the skeptic must say, in order to be acceptable to
 >the sane perceived abductee is, "I allow for the possibility,
 >however remote, that what happened to you might be possible the
 >way you perceived it.

Yes, Jim, I allow for the possibility, however remote, that what
happened to you might be possible the way you perceived it. Even
if you say that you passed thru a wall. The problem is that I
can only say that once, not to every one of the abductees we
know who all offer contradictory stories. What I cannot believe
if that all the humanoid aliens of the Universe are crossing the
vast, VAST distances of the Universe, just to give a few people
unpleasant surprises here in Earth.

What I cannot believe if anything that contradicts with
everything we have learned following the scientific method.
There might be apparent contradictions (going thru a wall) which
could be accepted when properly explained, even if I find it
very difficult, but the logical contradictions between all the
paranormal narratives are unsurmountable.

I have in front of me the last issue of Fortean Times. Must I
believe that between abductions those same aliens enjoy
themselves making crop circles? Must I believe that Ron Wyatt
did find all the places cited in the Bible - Noah's Ark, the Ark
of Covenant, etc.? Must I believe there is widespread Satanic
child abuse killing newborn children? All cannot be true at the
same time. But, generally speaking, they all offer the same kind
of evidence. So you, believers, unless you did believe all these
claims (and many others) are true, have a different question to
tackle:

Why you do_not_ believe in... (your option)?

Maybe, when you recognize that you are also skeptics of
something, you may understand my position better.

Yours,

Luis R. Gonzlez Manso








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                 Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:28:47 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:21:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction -  Gonzalez


 >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 18:32:32 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction

 >The one thing that both yourself and Peter continue to miss is
 >that these UFO abductions are gestalt of many components. A
 >_lifetime_ of such events.

Well, not everybody thinks so. Ask Betty Hill.

 >I mean what's up with the 'hard sell' of belief systems like;
 >"Your memories are faulty, so you can't trust any of them. No
 >matter how fresh and vivid they are." Here's another; "Don't
 >believe what your own eyes are showing you." Or, my 'favorite',
 >"What you 'think' happened to you didn't really happen to you.
 >It was something else." On and on like that. To me, that kind of
 >'thinking' is irrational and doesn't make much sense.

 >And all because 'some folks' refuse to believe that what is
 >being reported by so many people world-wide could be true.
 >
 >As reported.

I will say it again. If so many people world-wide were _really_
reporting the same thing (allowing for _ minor_ differences) we
would not be here discussing it. The problem is that there are
multiple and contradictory scenarios. What to believe?

And, even more important: Why do not believe the discarded ones?

 >It's not easy maintaining an open mind in today's world.
 >Cynicism rules the intellectual roost. But you and others should
 >make an attempt nonetheless. You are so very sure that we are
 >all wrong... how sure are you that you are so right?

Please, John, do not mix the issues. Personally, I have nothing
against any abductee as a person, you can believe anything you
want. But if you want to convince me that what you experienced
- I never negate you experienced something - is real, you must
convince me following _my_ rules.

On the other hand, of course, I do not demand that you convince
me or that you agree with me. You can do whatever you like...
and so do I

My rule is simple: "Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary
proof to be accepted". The scientific method is a accumulative
effort, any new theory does _not_ negate the precedent ones, just
improves them.

I have no seem any improvement in UFO theories since the
beginning. Do you?


Yours,

Luis R. Gonzlez









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                  Re: Probing Abduction Classics - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:49:00 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:25:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Probing Abduction Classics - Gonzalez


 >Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:47:27 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson@alienjigsaw.com>
 >Subject: Probing Abduction Classics

 >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:16:40 +0200
 >>To: <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Probing Abduction Classics - Gonzalez

 >>What I am saying is that, nowadays (and even at the beginning,
 >>remember Alvin Lawson's research), what you called the
 >>"baseline" can be generated from unconscious imaginery, and the
 >>only way we have to validate them is comparing the individual
 >>scenarios. In the Allagash case, they did _not_ fit. The number
 >>of digits is a very simple variable that _should_ fit, but the
 >>differences are much more important.

 >>If you cannot rely in the personal recollections of each witness
 >>about what happened to him, you cannot rely in anything. But in
 >>the Allagash case, the procedures described by each of the
 >>witnesses to have happen on himself did _not_ coincide with what
 >>the others saw happening to him. How can that be, if there is
 >>the most minimun level of objetive reality to their
 >>recollections?

 >I agree with what Wendy states in her paragraph above. I also
 >agree with some of what Mr. Gonzalez says. I do not, however,
 >understand this statement:

 >"... what you called the "baseline" can be generated from
 >unconscious imaginery."

 >I think this oversimplifies the entire topic of discussion. If
 >everyone can come up with a baseline for an experience on an
 >unconscious level, then we would have many more people claiming
 >alien abduction, not to mention other types of phenomena.
 >Wouldn't  _everyone_ be experiencing some form of alien
 >abduction?

I will clarify further.

Yes, I believe that everyone can come up with a baseline for an
abduction from unconscious data... if properly encouraged.
Depending on who makes the regression you can get past lives
stories, satanic child abuses, religious visions, mind control
experiments, or alien abductions.

Sometimes it is the witness himself who delude himself, but
usually is a shared enterprise between a naive subject and a
persistent therapist.

I insist. Not all the abduction narratives can be true at the
same time. How do believers explain those "false" abduction
narratives?


Luis R. Gonzlez









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                 Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:48:41 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:13:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Gonzalez


 >From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:40:57 -0600

 >>Physical details such as these scoop marks - among other such
 >>physical phenomena that appear in the abductee population - need
 >>to be thoroughly investigated and analyzed by medical experts.
 >>We need to know what the incidence of occurrence of identical
 >>scars are within the general population.

I completely agree. But, let me remember that we know about
"scoop marks" since the 80s. Why nobody has bother to do
something along this line in 20 years?


Luis R. Gonzlez









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                    Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Murray

From: Marty Murray <mmurray31@home.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:05:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:18:58 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Murray


 >Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:55:01 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>


 >>Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:07:39 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children

John Velez wrote:

 ><snip>

 >>To my way of thinking, introducing children of the age group
 >>that this book is aimed at to UFO/ET phenomena ncluding (of all
 >>things) how to contact a UFO investigator, is completely wrong.
 >>It seems to me that such a book could only serve to codify a set
 >>of 'beliefs' in the impressionable minds of the young ones who
 >>read it.

Mac replied:

 >John, List,

 >I know precisely where you're coming from. Nevertheless, it was
 >books on alien contact and the UFO phenomenon that thrilled and
 >fascinated me when I was in elementary school.  I knew all the
 >case histories, counter-arguments, theories and sightings, and I
 >don't think it messed me up (although certain readers of my
 >website might disagree :)

 >In fact, I think the subject challenged and inspired me in
 >numerous ways, and I'm grateful for tbe experience.

 >I enthusiastically agree with you that children dealing with
 >reality-bending issues such as the abuction phenomenon shouldn't
 >be tainted with reactionary views of self-proclaimed "experts."
 >But if the child in question is bright, s/he's going to seek
 >such material out anyway--and hopefully be able to make up his
 >or her own mind about the accuracy and trustworthiness of the
 >source in question.

Howdy Mac!

Man, you sound an awful lot like me! My interest in UFOs started
when I was nine or ten years old, when I read excerpts from 'The
Interrupted Journey' in Weekend Magazine, which came with the
local paper every Saturday back in the 60's. After that I was
hooked. I found the book at the library and I read it. I also
read 'Incident At Exeter', also by John Fuller. I began to read
anything about UFOs I could get my hands on, and that continued
throughout most of the rest of my life. I got into
science-fiction and began to read everything I could find by
Arthur C. Clarke and Robert Heinlein, and some of the others. I
don't know what sparked this obsession at such a young age. I
have spent most of my adult life trying to understand it, and
many other things that happened to me in my childhood.

I have a son who is now nine. I can't even imagine him being
into the kinds of things I was into at his age. His whole life
revolves around bugs and frogs and snakes and things like that,
and computer games. He asks me about UFOs, sometimes, and I tend
to give him very ambiguous answers. My thinking is a bit like
John's - I don't want to give him any preconceived notions or
steer him one way or another, and most of all, I don't want to
frighten him. I do tell him, though, that I think UFOs and
aliens are real, and there is definitely other life in the
universe, on other planets. I don't think he understands the
concept of the great distances involved or things like that, so
I don't go into great detail with him. I just want him to grow
up with an open mind.

I understand where John is coming from, and I agree with some of
his fears. I don't think children of such a young age should be
seeking out abduction researchers. The abduction phenomenon is
very frightening, and I don't think kids of that age are
equipped to deal with it, particularly if they suspect it may be
happening to them, or maybe one of their friends. It is one
thing to make children aware that life may exist on other
worlds, and may be coming here to study us, but it is another
thing to tell them that children their age are being abducted
and subjected to frightening medical examinations.

I haven't seen this book, so I don't feel right about
pre-judging it without seeing it first, and what it contains. It
may be quite benign in nature, and I hope that is so.

Oh, and BTW, Mac, I love your doodles and drawings. I used to do
the same thing, but haven't much lately. John Velez can tell you
all about my 'Alien Abduction Funnies'!


Take care,

Marty









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                  Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:50:16 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:24:27 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Mortellaro


 >Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:07:39 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children

 >>Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:58:53 -0700 (PDT)
 >>From: Jeff Westover <frequentflier66@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: UFO/ET Book For Children
 >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>EBK and gentle listers,

 >>A year or so ago there was discussion on this List
 >>concerning materials, or lack thereof, to help educate
 >>children on the ET/UFO phenomenon.

 >>This past summer a book, which I illustrated, titled
 >>'Almanac of Alien Encounters' was published by Random
 >>House, Inc.

 >>http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0-679-87288-4

 >>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679872884/o/qid%3D985753235/sr %
 >3D8-1/ref%3Daps%5Fsr%5Fb%5F1%5F1/002-2164013-5774409

 >>The book was written specifically for the 8-12 year old crowd
 >>and is a wonderful compendium of the historical presence of
 >>various aspects of the UFO/ET phenomena including alternate
 >>theories and how to contact a UFO investigator.

 >>This book would be a nice addition to any school or public
 >>library.


 >Hi Jeff, hi All,

 >This is so very sad for me to hear.

 >I _love_ kids. I have raised two of my own to adulthood, and I
 >am currently a grandfather of three, with one more 'on the way.';)

 >To my way of thinking, introducing children of the age group
 >that this book is aimed at to UFO/ET phenomena including (of all
 >things) how to contact a UFO investigator, is completely wrong.
 >It seems to me that such a book could only serve to codify a set
 >of 'beliefs' in the impressionable minds of the young ones who
 >read it.

 >I would not either confirm or deny the existence of such things
 >for a ten or twelve year old, and I routinely advise parents who
 >contact me to do likewise. What I do suggest for them to do is;
 >to "be there" for the child. Without reinforcing _any_ belief
 >system, and simply "listen" (act as an impartial sounding
 >board) if/when the kids bring up the subject of their own
 >volition. "Introduce" it... never.

 >As a parent I'd like to know 'which' cases are cited in order to
 >"introduce" the phenomenon to a youngster. Which "UFO
 >investigators" are these children and their parents being
 >pointed at. Carpenter? Boylan? Is the subject of alien abduction
 >being introduced as well?

 >If so, has any consideration been given to the fact that; a ten
 >or twelve year old who 'may be' having disturbing UFO/alien
 >experiences already, and who has not yet made any connection
 >between those experiences and UFOs/aliens (on their own,) are
 >being "introduced" to an "explanation" that they may wrongly (or
 >rightly) accept and cling to for life?

 >Cheeses, Mary, and Joseph, talk about "contamination"!

 >Fact: A ten or a twelve year old does not yet have the
 >intellectual or emotional/psychological foundation and skills to
 >deal with such a complex concept. Especially if they have been
 >having unsettling experiences themselves. They don't have the
 >coping skills needed. Skills that only come with knowledge,
 >education, and most-times 'hard earned' life experience.

 >Many adults will read a medical text and start to think they
 >have all the diseases that they are reading about. How much more
 >would this effect manifest in a young child reading about UFOs,
 >aliens, or worse yet alien abduction. If "abduction" is
 >discussed in the book, is the kindly space brother concept being
 >"introduced" as well? Has any consideration been given to the
 >fact that a child who may not be having UFO/alien experiences
 >might become frightened to death? What about the ones who are
 >having such experiences but who have not been considering them
 >as "reality?" Who is supposed to calm their fears or terror
 >during each subsequent night?

 >Sorry, I just don't 'cotton' to the idea of involving children
 >in what is on any level, a completely disturbing phenomenon. I
 >was in my 40's when I "made the connection." I _barely_ had the
 >coping skills I needed myself in order to maintain my sanity and
 >my perspective. What chance does a ten year old have?

 >This is wrong man. It's one thing if someone who has reached
 >adulthood chooses to investigate this unsettling subject. It is
 >their choice, their decision to do so. To "introduce" children
 >to it is something that strikes me as completely wrong, and even
 >bordering on a form of psychological child abuse.

<snip>


Dear All, Errol,

Speaking strictly for myself, imagine if our generation (aged
50-ish) had the opportunity of learning about UFOs and abduction
experience.

Perhaps had folks this knowledge, they would be much more open
to the possibilities once grown up. And less likely to laugh and
make fun of those who admit to having had them.

Further, not every young person has these experiences. To
withhold information and knowledge (which is power) from young
people is to disenfranchise the rest from life. And the
realities of life.

Young people learn much these days. Much from the movies and TV.
Not to mention the press and the propaganda they spew on behalf
of their benefactors in government. And most of it is
balderdash. A dollop of truth might be what is needed.
Especially in this provence of UFO's.

No, I think that it is important to let kids know what it's all
about. Having the knowledge does not mean they will all go out
and think themselves abducted. It means that those young people
interested in the phenom will learn what it's all about.
Adminstrated and guided by parents who love and care, this can
be a most positive part of education.

Jim Mortellaro









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   Oct > Oct 23

                     Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 02:08:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:26:27 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!


 >From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:52:57 +0100

 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >>Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 02:38:10 -0400

 >Jan wrote:

 >>I am certainly no expert on UK security matters.

 >>The basic four level classifications:

 >>Restricted
 >>Confidential
 >>Secret
 >>Top Secret

 >>are found in almost every country.

 >At the time of the Flying Saucer Working Party the UK had five
 >specific security designations. The following as quotes from an
 >internal MOD document (* denotes original italics):

 >TOP SECRET: With certain exceptions a Top Secret grading on an
 >original paper can only authorised by a Wing Commander (Group
 >Captain at Air Ministry) or civilian equivalent. The marking
 >should be placed only on those papers which, int he wrong hands,
 >would *cause exceptionally grave damage to the nation*. Clearly
 >very few papers justify this description.

 >SECRET: A Secret paper can be originated by any commissioned
 >officer provided he considers that *our national security would
 >be endangered* if it fell into unfriendly hands.

 >CONFIDENTIAL: A Confidential stamp is used by a commissioned
 >officer to safeguard information which, if compromised, would
 >*prejudice our national interest or prestige*, or which from a
 >staff point of view would cause *administrative embarrassment or
 >difficulty*.

 >RESTRICTED: Restricted is the lowest grading giving security
 >protection, and applies to matters which should not be published
 >or made known to anyone except for official purposes.

 >UNCLASSIFIED: If a fact does not normally need to be kept within
 >the official net, it is considered to be Unclasssified. A very
 >great weight of officially produced papers can properly fall
 >within this category, and can be placed in our shop window.

 >Worth noting that the Flying Saucer Working Party report was
 >only designated as SECRET, and that it was also cleared for
 >Canada.


Hi Andy,

Each page of the Working Party Document had "Discreet Secret" at
both the top and botton of the page. What you say is correct,
but it does not define what "Discreet Secret" is.


Regards,

Jan Aldrich









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                         LDT [was: AA... By The By]

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:03:35 +1000
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:32:08 -0400
Subject: LDT [was: AA... By The By]


LDT: (Long Distant Travel)

Previously I wrote:

 >From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: AA... By The By
 >Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 21:38:53 +1000

 >NASA has spent billions of dollars and a number of years
 >working on a solution to the this problem of Humans living and
 >travelling large distance in space. At the end of the day, NASA
 >found the human body wasn't up to the task. My friend at NASA
 >told me (off the record), that NASA was looking at something
 >along the idea of putting astronauts into some sort of long
 >sleep to get around the problem we are talking about here, for
 >a trip to say Mars.

I have had a few off-List e-mails about this so I felt I should
point out something. This long sleep idea isn't anything new for
NASA, this idea has been kicking around for ages, I don't know
all the details about what NASA is doing or thinking of doing is
regard to this project. All I know is NASA is looking along
these lines to get around the problem of LDT in space for
Humans. It may cost more money and time to sort out this
problem, but I for one am pleased to see NASA committed to
solving the problem without recreating even greater problems. It
may cost a little more as I say, but we will all benefit from
NASA's commitment to doing things right the first time round.

I feel going down the path to Genetic Engineering of humans for
LDT in space will bring about more problems than it will solve.
If we went down this path and pulled it off, what would happen
to the GE humans after the mission? They wouldn't be able to
live on Earth, they would have to sit up there orbiting the
Earth until another mission was ready to go. I can see these GE
humans becoming resentful of their creators and maybe even
turning against them. Maybe this is how the Greys came to be?
How knows.

Hmmm, now that sound like the basics for a SicFi novel or movie,
Humans make GE humans for Mars mission, GE humans turn against
their creators, all hell breaks loss and Mel Gibson or alike
comes to the rescue. Hmmm, could be something there for a novel
or movie.

If there is I have the Copy Right to the Idea. Sorry.


 >What NASA and alike says "Off the record" and
 >what their will say "For the record" is so different. Why is
 >this subject so hard for some to deal with? I'm not living in
 >the 14th century am I? This is the year 2001 is it not?

By 'Subject'  I wasn't referring to the Mars missions or Long
Sleep programs I was referring to the subject of UFOs in
general.

Hope this cleared a few things out.

Cheers Tophar.








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                Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clarke

From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:44:16 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:39:54 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clarke


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:19:20 -0400

 >>From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >>Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:10:17 +0100


Hi Serge,

 >You did a great job uncovering the documents and your comments
 >give a good indication of its content. The images of the
 >originals are a great addition.

Thanks for your kind comments - as it was Report No 7's 50th
birthday party this year we thought it was time to invite the world
to the celebrations.

 >Your conclusion on Roswell stems from the assumption that the
 >MOD was referring to Roswell. It was not. It was referring to
 >the Aztec hoax. But the lack of any reference to Roswell in the
 >document may give weight to your same conclusion... Or not

Exactly. This is where those who wish to believe in conspiracy
part from those who draw conclusions based upon evidence and
context. The fact remains that Roswell was, in 1947 at least, a
flash in the pan that was forgotten by the world's media before
the ink had dried on the story. No one - certainly not the likes
of Keyhoe and Scully - even so much as mentioned Roswell in a
'cover-up' context during the great flying saucer craze of the
1950s.

More significantly, the lack of _any_ significant mention of an
ET element to Roswell in official document of the time simply
backs up my suspicions. Others will disagree, and claim that the
events were hushed up/are "above top secret" etc but this is
speculation, not fact. All we have been presented with as
"evidence" of these claims are faked documents, products of
modern-day obsessions - not 1947. They are not history, but the
invention of an imagined history.

The DSI/JTIC Report No 7 was as high as it could get in British
Intelligence circles - the fact that it was kept under wraps for
50 years speaks volumes. Yet despite the very close liaison
between UK and USA, and the urgency by which both Tizard and
Churchill requested answers to the flying saucer riddle - not
one single reference or mention of the discovery at Roswell that
would have settled the question altogether.

Serge, this is not simply a matter of the DSI/JTIC report
itself; what you have not seen is the background interviews with
those who were involved in the research and writing of the
report. These will be revealed in our book - but I can say that
the chairman of the British Flying Saucer committee, an RAF Wing
Commander, spent three weeks at the ATIC and the Pentagon in
1952 on a top secret mission to 'pick' the brains of the USAF on
flying saucers. It will come as no surprise that he heard no
mention of crashed flying saucers, Roswell, or any other
suchlike, and today at the age of 88 he remains scathing about
the whole subject.

This was a guy who had the highest security clearance and served
as a senior Technical Intelligence officer during the Second
World War. If a flying saucer had been secretly recovered by the
US or British authorities, I am certain he would know about it.
His testimony does not stand alone, but is complimented by the
evidence of the heads of the Deputy Directorate Intelligence
(DDI Tech), Air Ministry, several of whom we have traced and
interviewed, at the relevant time.

Finally, to top it all we have the testimony of the late Ralph
Noyes, who served as the Private Secretary of the British Vice
Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sir Ralph Cochrane, from
1950-52 (the same time as the Working Party). Cochrane had close
links with Vandenberg and Twining who are rumoured to be wrapped
up with the Roswell/MJ12 business. As Ralph said in 1988: "I
find it inconceivable that he would not have been told - at the
very least by a wink and a nod...of the extraordinary event of a
captured piece of ET hardware, with all its implications for
defence. I am equally clear that I could not have failed, as
Cochrane's PS (I served as the eyes and ears) to get some whiff
of the thing myself."

If all these people are lying, or are having guns held at their
heads, then we are being asked to accept a vast conspiracy
involving literally hundreds of people spanning more than half a
century.

This scenario simply does not hold water and no one who adheres
to a historical methodology would arrive at any other conclusion
than what is implicit in the *real* documents we have
discovered. I realise that many listers will take another point
of view, as is their right, and at the end of the day as Imran
Khan has perceptively observed in connection with the current
world crisis: "People believe what they want to believe."

 >Do you think Churchill got the "Truth About Flying Saucers" ?


Churchill got the "truth" about flying saucers as the Air
Ministry understood it _at_the_time_that_Churchill_asked_ (ie
July-August 1952). Ironically, he asked and got his answer
before a major change in policy that occurred following a series
of dramatic sightings in September of that year. This led to a
more open-minded attitude that resulted, by 1955, in the
acceptance that around 10 percent of reports could not be
"explained". So some mystery remains.

Hope this is helpful,


Best Wishes

Dave Clarke








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                   Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:36:15 +0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 17:31:12 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Lehmberg


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:50:16 EDT
 >Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:07:39 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children

 >>>Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:58:53 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>From: Jeff Westover <frequentflier66@yahoo.com>
 >>>Subject: UFO/ET Book For Children
 >>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

<snip>

 >No, I think that it is important to let kids know what it's all
 >about. Having the knowledge does not mean they will all go out
 >and think themselves abducted. It means that those young people
 >interested in the phenom will learn what it's all about.
 >Adminstrated and guided by parents who love and care, this can
 >be a most positive part of education.


The present prevaricating approach serves an excuse for
youngsters to resent oldsters for being sold a historical bill
of goods by them. I know I did, and do. I know they do.

No... You�ve got to tell the kids the unvarnished truth, if you
don't, you only put resentment in reserve to compound interest.
Besides, bad news seldom gets better with age. And it's likely
not the kids one would be so *worried* about; it's the copping
to it _themselves_ that's the real hurdle -- forgetting that
it's better to get that dentist's office visit behind them,
behind us all.  Disclosure back in 1947 would have put us
"where", by now?  Damn site further than we are now, I'd bet!


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
www.alienview.net








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                Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Strickland

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:20:17 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 17:59:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Strickland


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:48:41 +0200

 >>From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:40:57 -0600

 >>>Physical details such as these scoop marks - among other such
 >>>physical phenomena that appear in the abductee population - need
 >>>to be thoroughly investigated and analyzed by medical experts.
 >>>We need to know what the incidence of occurrence of identical
 >>>scars are within the general population.

 >I completely agree. But, let me remember that we know about
 >"scoop marks" since the 80s. Why nobody has bother to do
 >something along this line in 20 years?

 >Luis R. Gonzlez

Dear Luis, John, Listers,

I intend to get some straight answers from an nationally known
pathologist M.D. tomorrow.  He's also an abductee.  I think the
"mellon-baller" punch biopsy was done back in the '50s and early
'60s, and may  have been eliminated by the early '70's.

Luis, many people would rather sit in the middle of the road,
with a bag over their heads, maintain the status quo, and learn
_nothing_ new than to delve into some aspect of a phenomena for
which they feel inadequately prepared to handle. History tells
us this:  Issac Newton, Giordana Bruno, Galileo Galilei, James
Clerk Maxwell, and Albert Einstein.  None, not one of these
men's theories were accepted at the time they lived. It's taken
a very long time to get a very short distance in physics and
astronomy.  It also takes courage just to get the bag off of
your head, much less get out of the middle of the road.


Sincerely,

Sue Strickland
ex-abductee









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                 Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:15:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:02:22 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clark


 >From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:44:16 +0100

 >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >>Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:19:20 -0400

 >>>From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >>>Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:10:17 +0100

 >This scenario simply does not hold water and no one who adheres
 >to a historical methodology would arrive at any other conclusion
 >than what is implicit in the *real* documents we have
 >discovered. I realise that many listers will take another point
 >of view, as is their right, and at the end of the day as Imran
 >Khan has perceptively observed in connection with the current
 >world crisis: "People believe what they want to believe."

At least we can agree on that, as long as you are including
yourself in this condescending equation. In other words: "What I
know, I _know_; what you know, you only _believe_." I state this
not to start another tedious quarrel about Roswell, in which I
will not participate, but simply to point out what rhetorically
is happening here, and how pointless it is.

Meantime, the Summer 2001 issue of International UFO Reporter
(published by CUFOS, 2457 West Peterson Avenue, Chicago,
Illinois 60659; yes, this is a plug) carries a fascinating
article, Joseph Stefula's "The Roswell Testimony of Chester P.
Parton." Yet another piece of testimony, this time from a truly
unexpected (and well-placed) source, casting yet more doubt on
the standard debunking theories about what happened in New
Mexico in July 1947. It is safe to say that, Dave's earnest and
no doubt sincere words above notwithstanding, thoughtful people
will continue to wonder about and debate the Roswell incident.
It seems safe to say, too, that those who demand certainty even
when none is available are doomed only to a lifetime of
frustration.


Jerry Clark










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                             Copyright On Ideas?

From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:44:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:04:00 -0400
Subject: Copyright On Ideas?


 >From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: LDT
 >Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:03:35 +1000

 >Hmmm, now that sound like the basics for a SicFi novel or movie,
 >Humans make GE humans for Mars mission, GE humans turn against
 >their creators, all hell breaks loss and Mel Gibson or alike
 >comes to the rescue. Hmmm, could be something there for a novel
 >or movie.

 >If there is I have the Copy Right to the Idea. Sorry.

There is no such thing as a "copy right to the idea." Ideas and
concepts are not copyrightable. In the US (and many other
countries), copyright covers the tangible expression of ideas in
fixed form, for example, written text, musical score, or graphic
image. For details on US copyright law, see:

http://www.loc.gov/copyright/circs/circ1.html









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                  Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:38:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:04:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:48:41 +0200

 >>From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:40:57 -0600

 >>>Physical details such as these scoop marks - among other such
 >>>physical phenomena that appear in the abductee population - need
 >>>to be thoroughly investigated and analyzed by medical experts.
 >>>We need to know what the incidence of occurrence of identical
 >>>scars are within the general population.

 >I completely agree. But, let me remember that we know about
 >"scoop marks" since the 80s. Why nobody has bother to do
 >something along this line in 20 years?


Ahaaa! Now you are asking a really relevant question. Maybe now
you can get a sense of the level of frustration that I feel as
an experiencer/reporter of the phenomena.  ;)

'Why' indeed. A part of the answer to that question has to do
with the appalling lack of resources available to those who do
investigate these cases, in tandem with an even more appalling
lack of interest/will to do so, by anyone with the
where-with-all to actually make it happen. (ie; research
institution, medical facility, etc. or on the private side; with
funds from UFO 'regulars' Bob Bigelow or Larry, 'Daddy Warbucks'
Rockefeller.) It has _nothing_ to do with not being able to
round up enough credible and willing abductee volunteers. The
lack of response is on the side of interested researchers and
established research institutions/science.

Even the most basic of research has yet to be performed on a
large enough sampling of 'abductees' to make any subsequent
results statistically significant. Wendy asked me recently what
it was that I thought needed to be done in order properly
investigate the claims/reports of the 'abductees.' I responded
by telling her that IMHO what is needed is a multi-disciplinary
approach. Not the least of which (as is made clear by the
example we are discussing) is a complete medical profile/work-up
of as many abductees as can be corralled.

Until some of the 'basic' questions are addressed, we're all
doomed to wander down endless paths of speculation and debate.
(Which can get quite contentious at times.) The only solution to
to the ignorance is knowledge. Knowledge that is gleaned only by
using the best minds available, and as much of the available
resources as we can throw at it.

I'm still waiting too Luis. And I promise you that my interest
in seeing that this work is done is much, much more immediate,
personalized, and acute, than your own.  :)


Sincerely,

John Velez

                      A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                      www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                               johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
    "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."










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               Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - McCartney

From: Pat McCartney <ElPatricio@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:59:13 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:07:29 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - McCartney


 >From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:44:16 +0100

 >Finally, to top it all we have the testimony of the late Ralph
 >Noyes, who served as the Private Secretary of the British Vice
 >Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sir Ralph Cochrane, from
 >1950-52 (the same time as the Working Party). Cochrane had close
 >links with Vandenberg and Twining who are rumoured to be wrapped
 >up with the Roswell/MJ12 business. As Ralph said in 1988: "I
 >find it inconceivable that he would not have been told - at the
 >very least by a wink and a nod...of the extraordinary event of a
 >captured piece of ET hardware, with all its implications for
 >defence. I am equally clear that I could not have failed, as
 >Cochrane's PS (I served as the eyes and ears) to get some whiff
 >of the thing myself."

I am no historian, and would not dispute the documents that Dave
and his fellow researchers have obtained. However, he may be
underestimating the effectiveness of the compartmentalizing of
intelligence information in the United States.

Ralph Noyes understandably concluded that no secret U.S. study
of UFOs existed that was based on actual wreckage since Cochrane
was unable to confirm its existence, even by a "wink and a nod."
But it's all too conceivable, I'm afraid, that he was unable to
penetrate the most well-protected compartments within U.S.
intelligence.

The example that always comes to mind is the late Barry
Goldwater's attempts to personally examine purported UFO relics
at Wright- Patterson Air Force Base. If anything, Goldwater's
credentials far outweighed Cochrane's. He was a general in the
Air Force Reserves, and as a U.S. senator chaired the Senate's
Select Committee on Intelligence. Banking on his longtime
friendship with General Curtis LeMay, the Wright-Patterson
commander at the time, Goldwater made repeated requests to visit
locations at Wright-Patterson where it was rumored that such
artifacts were stored.

As has been reported by several researchers, Goldwater was
ultimately told not just 'no', but told not to ask again. My
question is, what is so important that the chair of the Senate
Select Committee on Intelligence cannot be briefed, even quietly
with a wink and a nod?

The growth of U.S. intelligence services and their sequestered
information and operations has undermined our democratic
traditions. That's why the iconoclastic writer Gore Vidal calls
today's United States a National Security state rather than a
democracy.


Pat McCartney










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   Oct > Oct 24

                   Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:14:05 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 07:31:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Hall


 >From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:20:17 -0600

 >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:48:41 +0200

 >>>From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:40:57 -0600

 >>>>Physical details such as these scoop marks - among other such
 >>>>physical phenomena that appear in the abductee population - need
 >>>>to be thoroughly investigated and analyzed by medical experts.
 >>>>We need to know what the incidence of occurrence of identical
 >>>>scars are within the general population.

 >>I completely agree. But, let me remember that we know about
 >>"scoop marks" since the 80s. Why nobody has bother to do
 >>something along this line in 20 years?

 >>Luis R. Gonzlez

 >Dear Luis, John, Listers,

 >I intend to get some straight answers from an nationally known
 >pathologist M.D. tomorrow. He's also an abductee. I think the
 >"mellon-baller" punch biopsy was done back in the '50s and early
 >'60s, and may have been eliminated by the early '70's.

 >Luis, many people would rather sit in the middle of the road,
 >with a bag over their heads, maintain the status quo, and learn
 >_nothing_ new than to delve into some aspect of a phenomena for
 >which they feel inadequately prepared to handle. History tells
 >us this: Issac Newton, Giordana Bruno, Galileo Galilei, James
 >Clerk Maxwell, and Albert Einstein. None, not one of these
 >men's theories were accepted at the time they lived. It's taken
 >a very long time to get a very short distance in physics and
 >astronomy. It also takes courage just to get the bag off of
 >your head, much less get out of the middle of the road.


Sue,

Well stated, especially for someone who has tipped his hand as
being far less than 'open-minded'.

As a person formally trained in logic and scientific method, I
detect numerous false assumptions on his part. 'Logic' based on
false assumptions yields false conclusions. Logic has to do with
correct reasoning processes given various facts and assumptions,
but those 'facts' and assumptions are open to challenge. And his
can be and should be challenged.


Dick









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               Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Christensen

From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:25:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 14:59:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Christensen


 >From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:20:17 -0600

 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:48:41 +0200

 >>From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:40:57 -0600

 >I intend to get some straight answers from an nationally known
 >pathologist M.D. tomorrow.  He's also an abductee.

Whatever his professional standing, the fact that he is a (by
necessity, self-proclaimed) abductee) makes any input he
provides automatically suspect. This is called "contamination"
and science tries very hard to avoid it. Surely there are
'non-abducted'  pathologists who could provide answers to your
questions?

Purrrrs...

wac









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                          Secrecy News -- 10/23/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 14:59:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:02:17 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/23/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
October 23, 2001


**      RUMSFELD BLASTS LEAKS
**      PENTAGON CLAMPS DOWN ON INFORMATION


RUMSFELD BLASTS LEAKS

Citing media reports last week concerning the deployment of
special operations forces in Afghanistan, Defense Secretary
Donald Rumsfeld yesterday deplored the disclosure of classified
information and discussed the limits of Pentagon cooperation
with the media.

"We cannot and will not provide information that could
jeopardize the success of our efforts to root out and liquidate
the terrorist networks that threaten our people," he said.

"I think that the release by a person in the government who had
access to classified information to the effect that the United
States ... was about to engage in a special operation in
Afghanistan clearly was ... a violation of federal criminal law
and it was something that was totally in disregard for the lives
of the people involved in that operation," he said.

Secretary Rumsfeld did not indicate which federal criminal law
was violated.  Presumably he was referring to the Espionage Act,
specifically 18 U.S.C. 793(d), which prohibits disclosure of
"information relating to the national defense" to a person "not
entitled to receive it."

Excerpts from Secretary Rumsfeld's press briefing on classified
information and the media are posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/10/dod102201.html

The story was elaborated by Vernon Loeb and Bradley Graham in
the Washington Post today.  See "Rumsfeld Assails Leak on
Troops":

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36209-2001Oct22.html


PENTAGON CLAMPS DOWN ON INFORMATION

Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz has called upon
Pentagon employees to minimize disclosure of information to the
public and to use discretion even when talking among themselves.

"It is ... vital that Defense Department employees, as well as
persons in other organizations that support DOD, exercise great
caution in discussing information related to DOD work,
regardless of their duties," Wolfowitz wrote in an October 18
memo.

"Do not conduct any work-related conversations in common areas,
public places, while commuting, or over unsecured electronic
circuits," he wrote in the memo, which was first reported on
October 22 by InsideDefense.com.

Significantly, Deputy Secretary Wolfowitz did not distinguish
sharply between classified and unclassified information.

"Classified information may be discussed only in authorized
spaces and with persons having a specific need to know and the
proper security clearance.  Unclassified information may
likewise require protection because it can often be compiled to
reveal sensitive conclusions."

"If in doubt, do not release or discuss official information
except with other DoD personnel," he advised.

Defense Secretary Wolfowitz's memorandum on "Operations Security
Throughout the Department of Defense" is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/10/wolfowitz.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@lists.fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:

subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691









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               Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:18:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:10:53 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Maccabee


 >From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:44:16 +0100

<snip>

 >Serge, this is not simply a matter of the DSI/JTIC report
 >itself; what you have not seen is the background interviews with
 >those who were involved in the research and writing of the
 >report. These will be revealed in our book - but I can say that
 >the chairman of the British Flying Saucer committee, an RAF Wing
 >Commander, spent three weeks at the ATIC and the Pentagon in
 >1952 on a top secret mission to 'pick' the brains of the USAF on
 >flying saucers. It will come as no surprise that he heard no
 >mention of crashed flying saucers, Roswell, or any other
 >suchlike, and today at the age of 88 he remains scathing about
 >the whole subject.

I read the documents and your commentary. If I understood
correctly, th special study commenced in October, 1950 and was
finished in June, 1951. If I understood correctly, Marshall
Chadwell visited Britain as part of this study in 1951. Are you
saying there was another study in 1952,or did they simply give
Churchill the results of the 1951 study?

The study document bases most of its research on Projects Sign
and Grudge and so their conclusions and method of analysis of the
three sightings they quoted are not surprising. I was
particularly amused by the reference to the "falling leaf"
pattern of dynamics of the object seen by 5 people. This was
dismissed as a sighting of ordinary aircraft at such a great
distance as to be unidentifiable by the witrnesses. And the fact
that one witness had earlier seen a similar object was used as
evidence AGAINST the reality of the sighting (the witness
contaminated th other witnesses with his sighting.)

And, speaking of belief, 'We can't believe that such an object
could fly around and not be seen by many others who would make
sighting reports'. (paraphrase of one of the reasons used to
reject even the 5 person sighting).

<LOL>

The MOD learned their ATIC lessons well.

I wonder if the MOD analysts were aware of the number of
sightings in the USA in which the motion of a UFO was compared to
that of a 'falling leaf'.

I wrote about the CIA's 'investigation' of the ATIC/Blue Book
study in the UFO - FBI Connection. Apparently the MOD, in 1951,
got the same sort of UFO "indoctrination" that the CIA got in the
summer of 1952 (it's all misidentifications,hoaxes and
delusions).

Perhaps if the MOD had checked with the Director of Air Force
Intelligence, General John A. Samford, the story would have been
a little different, especially if they had checked on July 29,
1952. That was the day Samford gave his (then) famous press
conference on UFOs and explained the Washington, DC sightings as
resulting from temperature inversions (subsequently disputed by
Air Force analysts and even at the time by the trained radar
engineer who was on the scene during the second series of
sightings). Publicly Samford said that everything could b
explained. That's not what was said in private!

It was on the morning of July 29 that a sighting occurred in
Michigan that involved ground radar, aircraft radar and a visual
sighting. In this case, unlike the one MOD case discussed in
Report #7, there was no doubt that the radar and visual
detections referred to the same object (UFO FBI Connection, pg
223)

It was on that same day that US Air Force Office of Special
Investigations was told by US Air Force Intelligence that "no
theory exists at the present time as to the origin of the objects
and they are to be considered unexplained." (this refers to
objects detected during the 25 July 1952 sightings over
Washington, D C). UFO-FBI-- pg 228

It was also on that same day that the FBI was told by Air Force
Intelligence that there was a category of sightings involving
pilots for which there was additional corroboration, such as
recording by radar or sighting from the ground. This category
made up two or three per cent of the total number of sightings
and were the most difficult to explain.

" Some of these sightings are originally reported from the
ground, then are picked up by radar instruments.  ...in these
instances there is no doubt that these individuals reporting the
sightings actually did see something in the sky. "

The FBI was told that the sightings in the this category

      "have never been satisfactorily explained .....it
      is still possible that these objects may be a natural
      phenomenon or some type of atmospheric disturbance
      (but)... it is not entirely impossible that the
      objects sighted may possibly be ships from another
      planet such as Mars.  .....at the present time there is
      nothing to substantiate this theory but the the
      possibiity is not being overlooked."

(See UFO FBI Connection, page 232 or FBI document dated July 29,
1952)

I wonder what the history of the UFO subject would have been like
if Samford had stated publicly that several percent of the sightings
could not be explained and that the interplanetary
hypothesis was under consideration.

(The interplanetary consideration popped up in the
FBI files in October, 1952, in a document that states

      "...some military officials are seriously considering
      the possibility of interplanetary ships.")










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              Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:55:24 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:13:09 -0400
Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Mortellaro


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'!
 >Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:28:51 +0200

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:28:31 EDT
 >>Subject: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'!
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>There is something terribly wrong with any perceived abductee
 >>who cannot tolerate a skeptic. By the same token, there is
 >>something terribly wrong with any skeptic who cannot admit, even
 >>to the remote possibility that the phenomena is real, i.e., the
 >>skeptibunker.

 >>What are you?

 ><snip>

Dear Luis, List, Errol,

 >Your silogism is not equilibrated. On one side, you simply ask
 >for tolerance on the part of abductees. On the other, you ask
 >the skeptic to renounce to all his knowledge _without_ offering
 >enough evidence.

No, merely to recognize the possibility that the phenom may be real.

 >Of course, there is_nothing_ in our scientific knowledge which
 >denies the possibility of alien beings arriving here, and even
 >abducting some specimens for their research. I do admit that
 >possibility. What I do not admit is any of the contradictory
 >scenarios derived from the abduction narratives we know
 >nowadays. I am completly sure that when (if) the aliens meet us
 >anytime in the future, there will not be any space left for
 >doubting.

Perhaps. I admit to not knowing.

 >>And all which the skeptic must say, in order to be acceptable to
 >>the sane perceived abductee is, "I allow for the possibility,
 >>however remote, that what happened to you might be possible the
 >>way you perceived it.

 >Yes, Jim, I allow for the possibility, however remote, that what
 >happened to you might be possible the way you perceived it. Even
 >if you say that you passed thru a wall. The problem is that I
 >can only say that once, not to every one of the abductees we
 >know who all offer contradictory stories. What I cannot believe
 >if that all the humanoid aliens of the Universe are crossing the
 >vast, VAST distances of the Universe, just to give a few people
 >unpleasant surprises here in Earth.

Neither can I. However, we do not know, assuming the phenom is
real, what their intentions are. To humanize them is to view the
alien phenomena the way we would. And given that they are here
for purposes of this discussion, they are then far ahead of us in
not only technology, but in their mental and spiritual
development   as well. That we cannot find meaning or purpose, or
that they may not be doing things in a (human) logical manner, is
not an argument against they're being here.

 >What I cannot believe if anything that contradicts with
 >everything we have learned following the scientific method.
 >There might be apparent contradictions (going thru a wall) which
 >could be accepted when properly explained, even if I find it
 >very difficult, but the logical contradictions between all the
 >paranormal narratives are unsurmountable.

Of course. However this is our (human) logic and it is a mistake
to think of them in our paradigm. To admit to the possibility
that they are here, abducting us, is to admit to not knowing how
or why.

 >I have in front of me the last issue of Fortean Times. Must I
 >believe that between abductions those same aliens enjoy
 >themselves making crop circles? Must I believe that Ron Wyatt
 >did find all the places cited in the Bible - Noah's Ark, the Ark
 >of Covenant, etc.? Must I believe there is widespread Satanic
 >child abuse killing newborn children? All cannot be true at the
 >same time. But, generally speaking, they all offer the same kind
 >of evidence. So you, believers, unless you did believe all these
 >claims (and many others) are true, have a different question to
 >tackle:

 >Why you do_not_ believe in... (your option)?

 >Maybe, when you recognize that you are also skeptics of
 >something, you may understand my position better.

Truth be known, Luis, I do not know if that which I perceive I've
experienced really happened. And I am the first to admit to this
fact. I say only that the UFO abduction phenomena is the only one
which best explains what I've experienced. Which is why I almost
always use the word, "perceived" experiences.

And I believe that skeptics are of value to the conundrum. I do
not believe that skeptibunkers are of any value, even to
themselves. And I define a skeptibunker as one who cannot admit
even to the possibilty of alien intervention. One who will cop to
any and all excuses, even unreasonable ones, to attempt to
explain it. Such is culpable ignorence.

To attempt to find a scientific reason for what is explained by
the abductee is more than reasonable. To say it is not possible
is ill conceived. In my opinion.

By all means, try hard to find a reason scientific or otherwise,
for the phenom. This is just what I've been doing for the past
six years. The result? Nothing.

As I explained to someone else recently, a skeptic, my memory is
clear as crystal. It is a real phenomenon. But as I step back and
attempt to analyse it, it just does not fit ANY paradigm which I
can conceive. Logically, intellectually, it cannot be. But it is
within the confines of my memory. Does that make sense to you?

So, I choose the one which makes the most sense. If I may use
that word, "sense," to me.


Regards,

Jim

PS: I choose not to be believed, but rather for people to believe
     the possibility. Nothing more. Nothing less.







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                           Richard Doty Interview?

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 23:41:27 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:15:05 -0400
Subject: Richard Doty Interview?


Royce,

I was curious if you have been able to conduct your Doty
interview yet.

Cheers,

Robert









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             Re: How Churchill Chased Flying Saucers - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:34:33 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:17:12 -0400
Subject: Re: How Churchill Chased Flying Saucers - Balaskas


 >Source: The Observer - London

 >http://www.observer.co.uk/uk_news/story/0%2C6903%2C577850%2C00.html

 >How Churchill Chased Flying Saucers

 >Paul Harris
 >Sunday October 21, 2001
 >The Observer

<snip>

 >The existence of the UFO report, written in 1951 and later used
 >to brief Prime Minister Winston Churchill, was denied by the
 >Ministry of Defence for almost 50 years. But the six-page
 >document has recently been unearthed by UFO historians Andy
 >Roberts and David Clarke as they researched a book on UFOs and
 >the Cold War. The report has been a 'holy grail' of British
 >'ufology' and details the conclusions of a shadowy panel called
 >the Working Party on Flying Saucers. This group was the idea of
 >Sir Henry Tizard, one of Churchill's most trusted scientific
 >advisers during World War II and a key figure behind the
 >development of radar.

Hi everyone!

The mention of Sir Henry Tizard's name, "a key figure behind the
development of radar", as the person who suggested the need for
such a panel of experts to study flying saucers is very
interesting. It is very likely that Tizard personally knew of
physics Prof. Paul Santorini of Greece (according to one book I
read, it credits Santorini with the invention of radar).

Is it just a coincidence that Santorini was also directly
involved in an official investigation of UFOs back in 1946?

According to Timothy Good's 'Above Top Secret', Santorini had
secret meetings with foreign scientists (including Tizard?)
regarding the mystery rockets flying over Greece. After
consultation with foreign officials (who were these?), the Greek
army ordered an end to their UFO investigation.

Years later, in 1967, Santorini gave a talk to the Greek
Astronautical Society where he confirmed that there was a "world
blanket of secrecy" surrounding the UFO question and that
authorities were unwilling to admit to the existence of a force
which we had "no possibility of defense".

Is the world ready for the blanket of secrecy to be lifted
completely and be told of a threat which we still cannot possibly
defend against?


Nick Balaskas









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                 Cydonian Imperative: 10-23-01 Mars Odyssey

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:44:14 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:19:10 -0400
Subject: Cydonian Imperative: 10-23-01 Mars Odyssey


The Cydonian Imperative
10-23-01
http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

Mars Odyssey Spacecraft in Orbit
by Mac Tonnies

[image]

The Mars Odyssey spacecraft in orbit.

The Mars Odyssey spacecraft, NASA's first Mars research craft
since the ill-fated Mars Climate Orbiter and Mars Polar Lander,
has successfully entered Mars' orbit. Although the Odyssey is not
equipped with a camera (such as the MOC aboard the
still-functional Mars Global Surveyor), it is hoped that the
Odyssey's mission objectives will help our understanding of Mars
geological past. As I've previously maintained (see "NASA's
'Search for Life' a Charade), I think the enigma of probable life
on Mars outweighs the demand for geological study. The Mars
Odyssey mission, while certain to tell us some interesting
things, is not the sort of survey craft warranted by the evidence
at hand, and NASA shows every indication of following up on
Odyssey with "more of the same."

[image]

The Beagle 2 lander.

Nevertheless, the UK's upcoming Beagle 2 mission is specifically
designed to search for life in the Martian soil. Its findings may
well turn the tide of Mars research toward biology--and the
acceptance of Martian biology is one step closer to the
acceptance of the prospect of intelligence.

end








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                Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Deardorff

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:51:55 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:21:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Deardorff


 >Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:38:32 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction

 >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:48:41 +0200

 >>>From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:40:57 -0600

 >>>>Physical details such as these scoop marks - among other such
 >>>>physical phenomena that appear in the abductee population - need
 >>>>to be thoroughly investigated and analyzed by medical experts.
 >>>>We need to know what the incidence of occurrence of identical
 >>>>scars are within the general population.

 >>I completely agree. But, let me remember that we know about
 >>"scoop marks" since the 80s. Why nobody has bother to do
 >>something along this line in 20 years?

 >Ahaaa! Now you are asking a really relevant question. Maybe now
 >you can get a sense of the level of frustration that I feel as
 >an experiencer/reporter of the phenomena.  ;)

 >'Why' indeed. A part of the answer to that question has to do
 >with the appalling lack of resources available to those who do
 >investigate these cases, in tandem with an even more appalling
 >lack of interest/will to do so, by anyone with the
 >where-with-all to actually make it happen. (ie; research
 >institution, medical facility, etc. or on the private side; with
 >funds from UFO 'regulars' Bob Bigelow or Larry, 'Daddy Warbucks'
 >Rockefeller.)

John,

If someone gathered a mass of data on the prevalence of scoop
marks on Americans (the general populace), how would you go about
trying to decide what fraction of them were associated with
abductions - abductees who didn't know they were abductees, or
weren't at all certain?


Regards,

Jim D.









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                      Re: Copyright On Ideas? - Tophar

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 17:12:33 +1000
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:23:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Copyright On Ideas? - Tophar


 >Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:44:55 -0400
 >From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Copyright On Ideas?

 >>From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: LDT
 >>Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:03:35 +1000

 >>Hmmm, now that sound like the basics for a SicFi novel or movie,
 >>Humans make GE humans for Mars mission, GE humans turn against
 >>their creators, all hell breaks loss and Mel Gibson or alike
 >>comes to the rescue. Hmmm, could be something there for a novel
 >>or movie.

 >>If there is I have the Copy Right to the Idea. Sorry.

 >There is no such thing as a "copy right to the idea." Ideas and
 >concepts are not copyrightable. In the US (and many other
 >countries), copyright covers the tangible expression of ideas in
 >fixed form, for example, written text, musical score, or graphic
 >image. For details on US copyright law, see:

 >http://www.loc.gov/copyright/circs/circ1.html

Thank you for that Wendy, I was really only being silly though when I wrote
that, put it down to my strange Australia sense of humour. I just wasn't
really
thinking anyone would seriously look at it as a good scifi story.

Your right though Wendy I shouldn't have done the copy right idea thingy as
it is really a
prelude to a story, or an out-lining or format of same. Aust and US law here
differs
some what here though.

Something as a Scifi writer for role playing groups has been a
topic of discussion on more than one occasion. (even though I
would rather have my teeth pulled than write I am very committed
to better myself literacy wise, even though it is so painful.)

So perhaps I should have said or written: This story outline below is copy
righted by
HouseWorks 2001.

 >>Hmmm, now that sound like the basics for a SicFi novel or movie,
 >>Humans make GE humans for Mars mission, GE humans turn against
 >>their creators, all hell breaks loss and Mel Gibson or alike
 >>comes to the rescue. Hmmm, could be something there for a novel
 >>or movie.

The story I have used though for a end of year assignment I got
for a literacy course I took this year. It will be posted at
www.darktrekvoyages.net sometime in the next week or two.

Thx again Wendy, I really should take something's more seriously.

Cheers
Tophar.


An Australian site for Copy right laws:

http://www.copyright.com.au/about_copyright.htm








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                Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clarke

From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:26:59 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:26:18 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clarke


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:15:44 -0500

 >>From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >>Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:44:16 +0100

 >At least we can agree on that, as long as you are including
 >yourself in this condescending equation. In other words: "What I
 >know, I _know_; what you know, you only _believe_." I state this
 >not to start another tedious quarrel about Roswell, in which I
 >will not participate, but simply to point out what rhetorically
 >is happening here, and how pointless it is.

Hi Jerry,

I know how fond you arye of quoting from the work of David
Hufford, but surely you cannot be suggesting that only
rationalists have prejudices. "What I know, I know; what you
know, you only believe" can be turned on its head just as
effectively and directed towards those who continue to 'know'
that ET crashed at Roswell, in the face of all that has emerged
in the last 20 years.

Our little arguments remind me of the debate between Andrew Lang
and Edward Clodd over the Cock Lane Poltergeist. You should give
Hufford a rest and have a look at Dr Gillian Bennett's
fascinating summary of the belief/disbelief debate as it has
evolved since the 17th century in "Alas Poor Ghost" (Utah
University Press, 1999, 150-59). As Bennett says:

      "...the most astute and ardent of debators do not (and
      perhaps cannot) step outside the arguments allotted to
      their team in the philosophical tug of war."

Nothing has changed, only we are now following the same tug of
war over Roswell and ET as Lang and Clodd followed over
poltergeists a century or more ago. Just for the the purposes of
debate, I will adopt the armour of Lang (who argued for belief)
and rest my case with:

      "Manifestly it is as fair for a psychical researcher
      to say to Mr Clodd, 'You won't examine my haunted
      house because you are afraid of being obliged to
      believe in spirits.' as it is fair for Mr Clodd to say
      to a psychical researcher, 'You only examine a haunted
      house because you want to believe in spirits.'"

 >Meantime, the Summer 2001 issue of International UFO Reporter
 >(published by CUFOS, 2457 West Peterson Avenue, Chicago,
 >Illinois 60659; yes, this is a plug) carries a fascinating
 >article, Joseph Stefula's "The Roswell Testimony of Chester P.
 >Parton." Yet another piece of testimony, this time from a truly
 >unexpected (and well-placed) source, casting yet more doubt on
 >the standard debunking theories about what happened in New
 >Mexico in July 1947. It is safe to say that, Dave's earnest and
 >no doubt sincere words above notwithstanding, thoughtful people
 >will continue to wonder about and debate the Roswell incident.
 >It seems safe to say, too, that those who demand certainty even
 >when none is available are doomed only to a lifetime of
 >frustration.

When you can produce some authenticated document in support of
your "wonder" I'll be happy to change my mind, but in the
meantime I reserve the right to remain sceptical. Again, "people
will believe what they want to believe", me included.

All best wishes

Dave Clarke









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                Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clarke

From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:06:50 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:27:27 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clarke


 >From: Pat McCartney <ElPatricio@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:59:13 EDT
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >The example that always comes to mind is the late Barry
 >Goldwater's attempts to personally examine purported UFO relics
 >at Wright- Patterson Air Force Base. If anything, Goldwater's
 >credentials far outweighed Cochrane's. He was a general in the
 >Air Force Reserves, and as a U.S. senator chaired the Senate's
 >Select Committee on Intelligence. Banking on his longtime
 >friendship with General Curtis LeMay, the Wright-Patterson
 >commander at the time, Goldwater made repeated requests to visit
 >locations at Wright-Patterson where it was rumored that such
 >artifacts were stored.


Hi Pat,

The most important word here is "rumored."

My dictionary defines "rumour" as "general talk or hearsay of
doubtful accuracy" and "a current but unverified statement or
assertion."

Dave Clarke









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              Eras News: 10-24-01 Odyssey Successfully Arrives

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:23:11 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:37:33 -0400
Subject: Eras News: 10-24-01 Odyssey Successfully Arrives


ERAS NEWS
The E-News Service of The Eras Project

http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

October 24, 2001

_____________________________


ODYSSEY SUCCESSFULLY ARRIVES AT MARS



MEDIA RELATIONS OFFICE
JET PROPULSION LABORATORY
CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION
PASADENA, CALIFORNIA 91109. TELEPHONE (818) 354-5011
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov

Mars Odyssey Mission Status
October 23, 2001

The United States returned to Mars tonight as NASA's 2001 Mars
Odyssey fired its main engine at 7:26 p.m. Pacific time and was
captured into orbit around the red planet.

At 7:55 p.m. Pacific time, flight controllers at the Deep Space
Network station in Goldstone, Calif., and Canberra, Australia,
picked up the first radio signal from the spacecraft as it
emerged from behind the planet Mars.

"Early information indicates everything went great," said Matt
Landano, the Odyssey project manager at NASA's Jet Propulsion
Laboratory in Pasadena. "The orbit insertion burn went off just
as we planned and we will now begin the three- month long
aerobraking phase."

Through tonight and the early morning hours tomorrow, the flight
team will be analyzing the information they are receiving from
Odyssey. This will help them evaluate the health and status of
the spacecraft and determine the precise orbit geometry.

Tonight's firing of the main engine slowed the spacecraft's
speed and allowed it to be captured by Mars' gravity into an
egg-shaped elliptical orbit around the planet. In the weeks and
months ahead, the spacecraft will repeatedly brush against the
top of the atmosphere in a process called aerobraking. By using
atmospheric drag on the spacecraft, flight controllers will
reduce the long, highly elliptical orbit into a shorter, 2-hour
circular orbit of approximately 400 kilometers (about 250 miles)
altitude for the mission's science data collection.

"Orbit insertion is our single most critical event during the
mission, and we are glad it's behind us," said David A. Spencer,
Odyssey's mission manager at JPL. "But we cannot rest on our
laurels. The aerobraking phase will be a demanding,
around-the-clock operation, and it requires the flight team to
react as the atmosphere of Mars changes."

The aerobraking phase is scheduled to begin on Friday, October
26.

JPL manages the 2001 Mars Odyssey mission for NASA's Office of
Space Science, Washington, D.C. Principal investigators at
Arizona State University in Tempe, the University of Arizona in
Tucson, and NASA's Johnson Space Center, Houston, Texas, operate
the science instruments. Lockheed Martin Astronautics, Denver,
Colo., is the prime contractor for the project, and developed
and built the orbiter. Mission operations are conducted jointly
from Lockheed Martin and from JPL, a division of the California
Institute of Technology in Pasadena. NASA's Langley Research
Center in Hampton, Va., will provide aerobraking support to
JPL's navigation team during mission operations.

# # # # #

____________________________


The Eras Project is a non-profit future studies project
focusing on the leading-edge news, events, ideas and
discoveries that will shape the future of humanity as we
enter the 21st Century and a new Era.

Eras News is the e-news service of TEP, providing the
latest news, reports and updates, including the Weekly
Briefing, sent free to your e-mail.

To subscribe to Eras News, send a blank e-mail to:
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THE ERAS PROJECT

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� The Eras Project, 2001









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                        Filer's Files #43 - 10-24-01

From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:10:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:42:40 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #43 - 10-24-01


FILER'S FILES #43 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
October 25, 2001, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
Webmaster Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com,

UFO SIGHTINGS HAVE BEEN OBSERVED in Maine, New Jersey,
Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Ohio, Illinois, Missouri, Florida,
Mississippi, Louisana, Texas, Idaho, California, Canada,
Suriname, Chili, France, Yugoslavia, and Turkey. The Disclosure
Project presentations continue in New York and Canada.


MAINE GREEN ORB

GREENE -- The witness reports a bright-greenish Orb with Red
Halo spotted in sky over Northern woods on October 1, 2001, at
8:35 PM. It appeared to have come out from the direction of the
full moon, which was to my left. The oval shape was speeding
somewhat rapidly down at first, and I thought initially that it
was a comet, as it appeared to have a tail and it was shooting a
bit downward. Then it went off in a very rapid parallel
direction, and the comet-like trail or vapors which followed it
were no more. It hovered minus the trail(s) and then appeared
more round. The orb was incandescent green with a vibrantly
bright red halo surrounding it. It absolutely was not of this
planet. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com.

NEW JERSEY FLYING TRIANGLE

LITTLE EGG HARBOR -- Arlene Griffith writes that on October 7,
2001, Sunday morning, at one AM, I was driving home from Sue's
who lives right down the street, when I noticed something odd in
the night sky. I looked up, marveling at the crisp autumn night
sky and noticed three stars close together. My first thought
was; "Gee, I've never seen that constellation before." The three
stars formed a triangle in the sky. That's when I also noticed
that it was too small to actually be a constellation, but too
big to be an airplane. There were no blinking lights of any
color that differentiates a plane or helicopter from the stars
in the sky. I stopped in my driveway. It was hovering (from my
viewpoint) at the end of my street, just over the treeline. We
live in the woods (the Pine Barrens), three hundred feet from
the road. I paused, then drove the rest of the way down the
driveway, and ran into the house to get my brother. A minute
later, he joined me out by the street. The! re was no sign of
the three "stars" that formed neither a triangle nor anything
else. Given recent events, air traffic activity in Southern New
Jersey has been slow to return, so there were not any signs of
any other aircraft. We live half an hour from the Atlantic City
Airport, the FAA Tech Center, and McGuire Air Force Base. So we
are well acquainted with the signs of aircraft. The first thing
my brother asked me was if I could have mistaken it, maybe it
was an airplane. No way. These were three steady lights, bright
enough to be mistaken for stars and close enough together and
arranged in such a distinct pattern to be shortly mistaken for a
constellation. It was big, bigger than any airplane I had ever
seen. Considering the events of September 11th, I wouldn't be
surprised if some aliens dropped by to see how things were going
down here. Thanks to L. Arlene Griffith, laurana70@yahoo.com,
and Lida Griffith/Lenox

PENNSYLVANIA STRANGE OVAL SHAPED CLOUD

PHILADELPHIA -- Dennis Donahue writes that on Thursday morning
October 18, 2001, I went into my boss's office around 7:15 AM in
west Conshohocken. She pointed out to me a strange looking cloud
on an otherwise clear sunny morning. It was hanging in the air
out over Bridgeport about 3 or 4 thousand feet in altitude. It
was a strange very dark colored cloud, all by itself, with a
perfect oval shape. We both joked about it being some kind of
UFO because a natural cloud would not be so perfectly shaped,
plus it's color was so dark against the morning sky. We both
went to get some coffee and less than 60 seconds later I
returned to her office to look at the cloud again but it had
vanished. We were both stunned; a natural cloud would not have
vanished so fast. There was nothing but blue sky. I find it
interesting that the Limerick Nuclear Plant can be seen from our
office window in the same direction as the cloud was seen.
Surely other people must have seen this sight since ! it was
near the Pennsylvania Turnpike during rush hour. Thanks to
Dennis_in_philly@yahoo.com (Dennis Donahue)

WEST VIRGINIA EGG OBJECT HOVERING OVER A FIELD

SANDYVILLE -- On October 2, 2001, at 6:50-6:55 AM, my sister and
nephew were driving out their dirt road, when my nephew spotted
a strange object and yelled at my sister to stop the vehicle.
She didn't at first but he saw it again, pointing and telling
her to pull over. It was a blimp-like but completely smooth
object with no ribbing or lines like a blimp. The object was
bright glowing red against the overcast cloudy day. There were
black square things on the bottom. There were two barn like
doors that were open, and a V-shaped object came out, with six
circles on each side of the V. They watched it for five minutes
and didn't move or make any noise. The object intrigued her, yet
scared her. They drove a little farther down the road, and took
their eyes off it, and when they looked back, it was gone. A
blimp cannot travel that fast!

DUNBAR -- On October 3, 2001, the witness reports two singular
lights traveling north with a third appearing to go straight up
till fading out at 8:20 PM. The witness says, "I observed three
separate lights in the night sky. The first was a bright white
light I mistook for a star, before I noticed it was moving at an
airliners steady rate. On first seeing the light I dismissed it,
until I saw a couple of airplanes flying nearby and realized it
wasn't lit like them. There was just one bright white light that
continued across the sky until lost to view. I had been lying on
a concrete bench looking straight up at the sky and noticed
another bright white light overhead. This one, as I watched, got
progressively dimmer as if going up. It didn't take but a moment
to fade out. It wasn't a star and I'm aware that some stars
viewed directly seem to disappear. The third was, obviously, at
a very high altitude, also, going north near the area of the
faded light. This one appear! ed to have a slight reddish cast
and was moving faster than the first. My background is in
mechanical drafting and design and I am an air and space buff so
I know what is flying around, and these were strange. Thanks to
NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

OHIO SOARING LIGHTS

AKRON -- Tami writes, �While visiting my sister last night,
October 23, 2001, we were out in her yard looking for " the
strange lights. It was about 9:03 PM, when we first observed
bright star like objects moving up and down in the sky. We
observed these lights until the last one disappeared but we were
able to get several hours of video. They were gone at 8:00 AM
this morning. We first noticed these " lights" while camping on
Aug 14, 2001, and we have seen these " lights" every night since
then. The "lights" are very bright, and sometimes they can be
seen below the clouds. We can only see an actual image of the
lights, when viewed through the video. On tape, some of these
lights act as though they are alive. They can be seen on video "
morphing " other " lights" will move quickly and silently across
the sky coming from the west, they can also be seen returning to
the west in the early morning hours. We see allot of triangle
formations of three lights, that are not as! bright as the
others. When seen through binoculars you cannot see through the
triangle, and there is a red light in the center of the
triangle. The height of the UFOs varied throughout the night,
when clouds were over head, you could see flashes of lights
through the clouds, some would shoot straight up in the air and
disappear, and some would stay just below the clouds. Thanks to
Tami Purpleufo@aol.com and Joe Trainor Masinaigan

ILLINOIS FLYING TRIANGLE SIGHTINGS

PARK FOREST -- On October 6, 2001, the witness reports seeing a
Flying Triangle with circle lights in each corner. There was a
light in the middle that was reddish orange blinking and going
in slow motion at 10;00 PM,

MT. VERNON -- We had pulled into the driveway of the house
October 8, 2001, and decided to sit out in the car and talk for
a bit. While sitting there talking I had noticed 3 very bright
lights, shaped as a triangle, hovering over the neighbor's
house. The lights were entirely too bright and close to be
stars. I immediately asked my friends what it was. We knew that
the lights were too low to be any airplane. As we watched the
lights, they began to slowly fade away leaving no trace of
existence. We had decided to call my two friends Mom and she
told us to come over there. From the stories we heard tonight,
this isn't the first sighting that people have seen around this
area.

PITTSBURG -- The witness reports, "It was there then it was gone
like a bolt of lightning on October 8, 2001. There were three
bright lights in the shape of a Flying Triangle. In the middle
of the lights there was a really dark gray area. It hovered
there for a minute and vanished without making any movements,
like it had just gone blank. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC

MISSOURI FLYING TRIANGLE

COLUMBIA -- On October 10, 2001, I was driving in my car way out
in the country when I saw to my right, three white lights formed
in a triangle shape. At first I thought it was just an airplane.
The "craft" was moving south very slowly, so slow that I had to
stop the car to see if it was moving at all, which it was. I
stopped the car at 11:32 PM, and noticed that it was getting
close and still wasn't making any noise of any kind. I got back
in the car and started the engine. There were some trees in the
way so I couldn't see the "craft" now, so I turned around and
headed east. I looked to my right and the triangle had changed
direction almost like it knew I was trying to follow. Now it
headed east as well, and as it started to really pick up some
speed I now could no longer follow. The white lights started to
turn red and blue; they didn't change like a light going on,
more like a transition. The case is under investigation by the
Missouri Investigator Group,

FLORIDA STRANGE BLUE LIGHT

MIAMI -- My wife had been walking the dog On October 8, 2001,
and came in to tell me that she had seen a strange blue light in
the sky. She was concerned about terrorist activity, and wanted
me to see it. I rushed out at 10:30 PM, and saw it was the size
and intensity of a very bright star, but perhaps brighter than
the brightest star. It had bluish cast. Over the ten minute
period that I observed the object moved very rapidly, yet
erratically, over a broad area of the sky. It moved like a bat,
constantly changing directions. Straight for a second, then
switch directions for another second, and then continue this
erratic movement. It was dark and just beginning to rain but it
did not disappear behind clouds or flicker. After a minute of
watching, I ran into the house to grab a video camera but was
never able to get it into the viewfinder. I speculated that the
intensity was not sufficient or that it was moving too fast for
me to catch it, though the latter does not se! em to be a
reasonable explanation. According to Peter Davenport Director of
NUFORC this was an exceptionally good witness.

MISSISSIPPI NAVY RETIREE SAYS HE ALSO SAW SPACESHIP

PASCAGOULA -- Northeast Mississippi Daily Journal 10/21/01 by
Natalie Chambers states. "When Charles Hickson and Calvin Parker
told the world in 1973 they were abducted by aliens while
fishing on the Pascagoula River, few people believed them. Now
after 28 years, it appears they weren't alone in their
experience on that October 11, night. A retired Navy chief petty
officer recently contacted The Mississippi Press about the
sighting that he can't forget. Mike Cataldo of Rotonda West,
Florida said he was on the pre-commissioning crew of the USS
Tunney under construction at Ingalls Shipyard. Dusk was setting
in as he and crewmates Ted Peralta and Mack Hanna were on US 90
heading to Ocean Springs. Peralta was driving, Hanna was in the
front passenger seat, and Cataldo was in the back seat. "We saw
a very strange object in the horizon going from northwest across
Highway 90. It was going pretty fast and went down into a wooded
area and into a marsh. It hovered over the tree! line, for a
minute. We actually pulled off the road and watched it. We said,
'My God, what is that."� Cataldo said. "We saw it, no question
about it. The object looked like a large tambourine with little
lights flashing on it. "As quickly as we saw it, it just
vanished," he said. Cataldo said he had a second sighting
minutes later, this time in St. Andrews as he neared his home.
"It wasn't as high up as we saw the first time. It was real," he
said. Cataldo said he rushed and told his wife what happened. "I
was almost hyperventilating. I wasn't shook up, but I was
excited I saw this thing," he said. The next morning, Cataldo
contacted his executive officer on the submarine and made a
report. This helps confirm the famous Hickson and Parker story
of being taken aboard a spacecraft. Thanks to FarShores News,
www.100megsfree4.com/farshore

LOUISIANA DAYLIGHT SIGHTING

ALEXANDRIA -- Andrew West Griffin from Louisiana MUFON writes,
"A coworker of mine told me today that she was driving down a
residential street when she saw a strange triangle shaped craft
slowly going in a northeast direction on October 15, 2001, at
10:30 AM. It was very unusual looking," she said. "It looked
like a big Flying Triangle in a clear sky. I thought at first it
might be some new radar plane heading to Barksdale AFB a hundred
miles away, but it wasn't going that way." So far, there have
been no other reports. Cordially, Andrew Griffin LA MUFON
awg_paperboy@hotmail.com

TEXAS CYLINDER SHAPED UFO

FT. WORTH -- Skywatch reports, "Both my fiance and I on October
19, 2001, were just getting out of the car when I noticed an
object that appeared to be a missile. It had a fuselage but no
wings and it was descending at a forty-five degree angle towards
the ground at 4:30 PM. Suddenly there was a flash, and then the
object, disappeared. Less than two seconds later all the way
across the horizon I spotted another object moving at what I
would say is an impossible speed, on a path that intersected
with the first objects flight path. The second object abruptly
vanished. Fifteen seconds later an AWACs or some type of large
jet came from Carswell AFB heading for the area where the
objects disappeared. It seemed cloud cover was not responsible
for the disappearance of the two earlier craft. Thanks to
Skywatch International skywatcher22@earthlink.net


IDAHO UFO

TWIN FALLS -- Brad Bickford writes, Friday night at around 10:05
we were returning from Twin Falls and in the western sky was a
real bright light, it didn't move and after a while I thought it
was a planet, so I asked my wife if she thought it looked like a
planet, she agreed it did. It was an amber color, and after
watching it for about 7-8 minutes (did not move once) it was
like it slowly turned or shut its light off slow - but then was
gone. There were no blinking lights around the area (thinking it
might have been a plane). I was just curious if you had heard of
any more reports around this area. Friday the 19th of Oct.
pbick@northrim.net (Brad Bickford) at about 22:05. Brad Bickford
pbick@northrim.net

CALIFORNIA ROUND UFOs AND GLOWING OBJECTS

BARSTOW -- The witness reports, "I was traveling on Interstate
40 at 7:00 PM when I saw a beautiful sunset on the desert near
Needles on October 4, 2001. I noticed a small red, contrail from
an airliner, but then I noticed it was "stationary" and not
moving for 15 minutes. This contrail was "degrading" yet, a new
contrail was being formed. Below the aircraft was a small round,
gray "UFO." dancing, and going back and fourth. The airliner was
stationary, burning fuel, and creating a contrail, as this UFO
hovered about 7 thousand feet "under" the large liner. I noticed
many people watching this in the Daggaet Solar Power area 50
miles from Edwards Air Force Base. I clearly saw a round UFO,
and this jet, with small contrail, and it was reddish, with the
sun, setting, and was below the horizon, or mountains. It was
"beautiful" and "spectacular," and was the most bizarre, thing I
ever seen. I felt it was showing off for all the cars traveling
along I-40, that evening. I cal! led the Highway Patrol in
Barstow; they said they got hundreds of phone calls on this.
They said it was a helicopter. I say it was a UFO, round, gray,
and making a motion, for attention. Then after I was under it,
the UFO, went away, and the "airliner" was free, to travel, to
its destination.

HAYWARD -- Many different colored glowing objects were observed
on October 10, 2001, by brothers. They went outside and looked
up at 8:35 PM and watched two small-lighted objects move slowly
across the sky. I estimate their altitude to be above 40,000
feet. They observed three objects in a triangle formation all of
which were different colors and glowing. These three objects
moved as if they were being dropped by parachute. Then three or
four other lighted objects appeared in the same general area.
The sighting lasted 60 to 90 seconds and were filmed.

LAKE ELSINORE -- My girlfriend and I were up in the Ortega
Mountains to sky watch when we notice a dim red star on October
7, 2001. We drove to a more remote location to scrutinize it
better. The "red star" started moving slowly, and started doing
fast turns and circles in the sky at 11:30 PM. It eventually
fades to the point where it was easy to lose sight of. Then, in
another area of the sky, the light reappears and moved from left
to right slowly before disappearing. Seconds later, the light,
with a different appearance and white color, reappeared in a
closer mountain range. It is moving towards us now and the light
became brighter! Out of extreme fear, we get in the car and
drove as fast as we can down the mountain, risking a serious car
accident. As I looked back at this object, while driving
erratically, I could see that it was close enough to see three
white lights. We must have escaped quickly enough because by the
time we got on the main road, the object was ! out of sight.
Thanks to Peter Davenport at www.ufocenter.com

CANADA ASTEROID OR UFO?

VANCOUVER Sun reports by Patricia Bailey published: October 15,
2001. A woman who told police she witnessed an airplane crash
into a hillside near Mission probably saw an asteroid, says one
of the province's top astrophysicists. "I think it was probably
a fireball," said Jeremy Tatum, a University of Victoria
astronomer. Mission RCMP say an unidentified woman called their
detachment Sunday afternoon and said she saw an object that
"glinted silver in the sun," hit the side of a hill north of
Deroche. The woman saw no smoke or fire in the spot where she
thought the plane landed, said police. "It's almost universal
for a witness to think it's very close. But typically its more
than sixty kilometers up in the air," said Tatum. Shortly after
the woman contacted the detachment, police from Mission,
Calgary, Cranbrook, Golden, Banff and Jasper received calls that
a meteor was observed falling. "A plane wouldn't have been seen
over that wide an area," said the astrophysicist, ! who added
that if the asteroid didn't break up in the sky first, it
probably crashed to the earth in Alberta. Thanks to Far Shores
News, www.100megsfree4.com/farshore

SURINAME DAYLIGHT UFO

PARAMARIBO -- Far Shores reports, "On October 18, 2001, dozens
of people in the South American country of Suriname reported
seeing an unidentified flying object near its capital. Police,
military and air traffic control officials said they received
reports of a brightly lit white object that appeared to fly back
and forth, sometimes at great speed, during a two-hour period
Wednesday morning. Local media also broadcast reports of the
alleged sightings on the southern outskirts of the capital, and
most television stations broadcast images of the object.
Surinamese Air Force Officer Tony Comvalius said, "He saw the
object, There were no planes in the area at the time and he
confirmed with the weather service that it was not a weather
balloon. I don't know what it was, but it was definitely not a
flying object I know." Not everyone was convinced that the
sighting was mysterious. The strange object was first seen
around 10:00 AM flying above Flora and the Suriname Air Force B!
ase. It was moving at very high speed, back and forth to a point
near the sun. An hour later it disappeared. Thanks to De War
Tijd, Paramaribo / Surinam 10/18/01 and farshores@canada.com
www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/

CHILEAN CHIEF OF NAVAL OPERATIONS SAYS, "UFOs ARE REAL"

SANTIAGO DE CHILE -- Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo reports, "The
former Chilean Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Jorge Martinez
declared, "UFOs are real." The ex-CNO made the shocking
statement during interview with a Chilean television network.
The interview was conducted by journalist from Teletrece. The
retired admiral admitted that he personally witnessed two UFOs
at sea, when he was a young lieutenant, and saw a very luminous
white object in front of his patrol boat. When he took command
of his first destroyer, then Captain Martinez saw another
similar object emerging from the water, creating a strong
interference with the navigation system and the ship's radar.
Guillermo Jimenez, another former Chilean officer claimed that
the sonar system onboard his ship detected two submarine-like
objects that caused similar malfunctions with shipboard
electronics. "They displayed the same size and metallic resonant
characteristics that ordinary subs typically show; however,
these! objects were too fast to be submarines," said Jimenez.
Both Jimenez and Martinez described how the gyrocompass systems
were out of control. "The radar displays went completely blank
and the gyro was spinning very rapidly, as if a strong magnetic
force was present." Some UFO investigators call this phenomenon
"UUO" or unidentified underwater objects. Interviewer Rodrigo
Ugarte told us that there were many other officers that
described similar events but did not want to go on the air.
Thanks to Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo Mario and Miami UFO Center
ufomiami@prodigy.net 10-21-1

FRANCE DARK UFO SEEN

SAINTE-SUZANNE -- On October 10, 2001, the witness reports
seeing a dark flying object, with a long and large light blue
flame trailing behind. The object disappeared after a two second
zigzag course at 7:40 PM. The dark object was moving west. The
witness was looking to the south, at about 45� above the
horizon. The weather was clear with stars, satellites, and
planes was visible, There were no falling stars visible. Peter
Davenport NUFORC.

YUGOSLAVIA MOVING COLORED LIGHTS

SERBIA -- Andra Pejic writes that, �It is one hour and half
after midnight on October 23, 2001, in the city of Nis, south.
There is something in the night sky that is changing colors and
is not staying in one place. It is moving in an eastern
direction towards Bulgaria. There are several witnesses to this
sighting and I will try to get more info in the morning.� Sorry
about bad English, but I�m writing this so excited and cant
believe my eyes. I�m the marketing manager and one of the owners
of Mobile Group Yugoslavia. Thanks to Andra Pejic
mggroup@eunet.yu

TURKEY ALIEN LIFE FORM

AMASYA -- The Scientific Research Project of Turkey UFO reports
that on July 23, 2001, an alien life form was observed in a 4th
Floor apartment at 9:30 PM on a hot evening. The alien, or
extraterrestrial creature's height was about 1.05 meters. He had
very big jet black eyes, slanting up. The alien was observed for
two seconds. His color was gray like smoke. The witness was
breast-feeding her 5 month old baby when she turned her head and
saw the alien in front of the balcony door four floors up.
Suddenly he disappeared. His skull was oval-shaped and bald and
looked like it formed as bones only. The witness called her
husband who did not see the alien. They kept the story secret
until they learned others had seen UFOs the same night. Thanks
to TUVPO liastar-0005@coopresources.net (Jeffrey M. Foss)

COME AND SEE US AT THE DISCLOSURE PROJECT

TORONTO -- Dr. Steven Greer Disclosure presentation by Major
George Filer (ret.) and Commander Graham Bethune (ret.) in
Toronto on Sunday, October 28 at the University of Toronto
Convocation Hall 32 King's College Circle, St. George Campus at
1:00 PM. Local Sponsor is Allan Jaggard: 416 201-1184.

Web cast of the May 9, Disclosure Project News Conference at the
National Press Club can be see at:

http://www.disclosureproject.org/npcwebcast.htm

Filer's Files may be late next week due to presentation.

NEW YORK -- Disclosure presentation by Steven Greer, M.D., NYC
on October 26, with Video Taped Testimony of Military,
Government & Intelligence Witnesses Friday, Oct. 26, 7:30 PM:
The New York Academy of Medicine, Hosack Hall, 1216 5th Ave. at
103rd St., NYC $10 Facility Fee Donation. Parking: Academy, 50
spaces free after 5:30 PM, 1st come basis; Merit Parking, 107th
& Madison Ave. Doors open 6:30 PM  Disclosure Video Presentation
starts at 7:30 PM., Thanks to Jim Schilder Disclosure volunteer

SAINT LOUIS MUFON CONFERENCE -- MUFON Conference at J.C.Penny
Auditorium, University of Missouri, St.Louis Campus, 9am-9pm.,
Nov.3rd.,2001, FLYING SAUCERS - HIDDEN HISTORY - 2001 (D-Day of
Disclosure) 1) Press Conference 2) Richard Dolan - U.F.O.'s and
the National Security State 3) Harold E. Burt - Flying Saucers
101 4) Dr.Carol Rosin - The Future of Space And Extraterrestrial
Intelligence 5) Stanton T. Friedman - Putting The Pieces Back
Together Again 6) Special Speakers Panel $10.00 per each of six
sessions,or $50.00 before November for all. 1-800-489-4UFO,
MUFON/MISSOURI, P.O.Box#643,St.Charles,Mo.63302, <
bwidaman@earthlink.net >,or 636-946-1394, The Airport Marriot
Hotel $65.00 Thanks to: Bruce Widamen State Director Missouri

BEFORE YOU BUY OR SELL A HOME SEE MY FREE REPORT All real estate
agents are not the same? Some real estate agents are part timers
and inexperienced while others are experts. When you are selling
or buying your home, you need to make sure you have the best
real estate agent working for you! Remember, the majority of
people do not know the right questions to ask, and what pit
falls can cause major problems. Picking the right real estate
agent can be a wonderful experience, and picking the wrong one
can be a big mistake! Find out, " What you need to understand
before hiring any real estate agent!" To get a free report,
e-mail Majorstar@Aol.com.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL for $30 per year by
contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended you for
membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2001 by George A.
Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the
files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its
editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared. These reports and comments are not necessarily the
official MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to
keep your name, address, or story confidential. Caution, most of
these are initial reports and require further investigation.
Regards, George Filer








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 25

                Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Strickland

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:51:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 08:01:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Strickland


 >From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
 >Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:25:44 -0400
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction

 >>From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:20:17 -0600

 >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:48:41 +0200

 >>>From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:40:57 -0600

 >>I intend to get some straight answers from an nationally known
 >>pathologist M.D. tomorrow. He's also an abductee.

 >Whatever his professional standing, the fact that he is a (by
 >necessity, self-proclaimed) abductee) makes any input he
 >provides automatically suspect. This is called "contamination"
 >and science tries very hard to avoid it. Surely there are
 >'non-abducted' pathologists who could provide answers to your
 >questions?

 >Purrrrs...
 >wac

Dear Wendy, Listers,

Let's try _not_ to get the cart before the horse here. I've done
that enough on this List. The fact that the M.D. happens to be
an abductee has _nothing_ whatsoever to do with the fact that he
has access to a well-stocked medical library, and I do not. If
you do, start researching the question! Furthermore, I do _not_
know at this time that he will find _any_ reference to what I
ask. He may find _no_ reference to the old punch biopsy
procedure. We shall see.

If, however, he does find some information, it's _got_ to be
better than the constant speculation, one way or the other.
Right?  I will ask him to dictate the passage to me, so that
there can be no mistaking what the medical books say, as well as
the medical volume and page number. So, any other interested
M.Ds or people who do have access to a well-stocked medical
library can also check the reference.

Therefore, the fact that he is an abductee will have no bearing
on the information provided. Granted, he may _look_ a little
harder and research a little longer (which in my book is a "good
thing") than a debunker might, but the results will probably
be the same. And, I can trust that he has done a thorough job in
the search process. I would not trust anyone (except myself) to
do as thorough a job. The only other incentive for him may be a
homemade baked pan of lasagna.

You will _not_ be given his name under any circumstances,
because it will _not_ be his opinion, but rather the historical
published opinion of others. Therefore, anyone's 'inability' to
accept the facts (whatever they may be... if there _are_ any!)
becomes a 'personal preference'.


Sincerely,

Sue Strickland
ex-abductee








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 25

                Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clarke

From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:00:07 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 08:04:19 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clarke


 >Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:18:48 -0400
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >I read the documents and your commentary. If I understood
 >correctly, th special study commenced in October, 1950 and was
 >finished in June, 1951. If I understood correctly, Marshall
 >Chadwell visited Britain as part of this study in 1951. Are you
 >saying there was another study in 1952,or did they simply give
 >Churchill the results of the 1951 study?


Hi Bruce,

Not so much a study but a change in policy that followed a
series of spectacular sightings/radar cases in Sept/Oct 1952
(during the exercise Mainbrace). This resulted in the Air
Ministry/MOD creating a permanent flying saucer committee within
a technical branch of DDI (Tech) that included some of the faces
from the earlier study, some of whom went to the US for
briefings at ATIC. Ruppelt makes a mention of one visit in his
1956 memoirs.

 >The MOD learned their ATIC lessons well.

In that we are in agreement!

 >I wonder if the MOD analysts were aware of the number of
 >sightings in the USA in which the motion of a UFO was compared to
 >that of a 'falling leaf'.


There is a lot more to emerge with regards to "falling leaf"
motion and the sightings by RAF personnel described in the
Working Party report. This will have to wait until the
publication of our book early next year. But I promise you will
not be disappointed!

Thanks for your comments, which are appreciated.

Dave Clarke








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                  Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:36:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 08:17:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez


 >Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:51:55 -0700
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction

 >>Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:38:32 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction

 >>>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:48:41 +0200

 >>>>From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>>>Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:40:57 -0600

 >>>>>Physical details such as these scoop marks - among other such
 >>>>>physical phenomena that appear in the abductee population - need
 >>>>>to be thoroughly investigated and analyzed by medical experts.
 >>>>>We need to know what the incidence of occurrence of identical
 >>>>>scars are within the general population.

 >>>I completely agree. But, let me remember that we know about
 >>>"scoop marks" since the 80s. Why nobody has bother to do
 >>>something along this line in 20 years?

 >>Ahaaa! Now you are asking a really relevant question. Maybe now
 >>you can get a sense of the level of frustration that I feel as
 >>an experiencer/reporter of the phenomena.  ;)

 >>'Why' indeed. A part of the answer to that question has to do
 >>with the appalling lack of resources available to those who do
 >>investigate these cases, in tandem with an even more appalling
 >>lack of interest/will to do so, by anyone with the
 >>where-with-all to actually make it happen. (ie; research
 >>institution, medical facility, etc. or on the private side; with
 >>funds from UFO 'regulars' Bob Bigelow or Larry, 'Daddy Warbucks'
 >>Rockefeller.)

 >John,

 >If someone gathered a mass of data on the prevalence of scoop
 >marks on Americans (the general populace), how would you go about
 >trying to decide what fraction of them were associated with
 >abductions - abductees who didn't know they were abductees, or
 >weren't at all certain?


Hiya Jim,

The short answer to that one is; there is no way to know "for
sure" who may or may not be an "abductee." I'm not a scientist
Jim, and I don't pretend to know what the right 'procedures'
are. I do know however that it is important to determine how
'common' or 'uncommon' these scoop marks may be. If every other
person has one, that tells us one thing. If it is a rare
occurrence, or something only found on the bodies of those
reporting UFO abduction, that will tell us another thing. It has
to be taken in steps. My point is however; that steps do need to
be taken. They haven't been, so far. I frankly don't think they
ever will be either.  ;)

Everybody wants answers. The problem is, no one is doing any of
the basic research required in order to find those answers. All
we have is a plethora of theories and speculations that tend to
run around in circles and more often than not, just plain piss
people off. The only way we will ever come by 'reliable
answers,' ones that are based on careful study and consideration
will be when somebody actually takes on the work and does it. It
will take real intelligence, talent, time and money. All of
which are commodities in short supply in ufology. After all,
we're not an endowed foundation. Ufology is a loose association
of groups and individuals that all work independently of each
other for the most part. Without a united foundation, funding,
and the will to do it, work such as I am suggesting will never
be done.

I'm waiting for the aliens themselves to end the cover-up. They
are the only ones who can convince the world that they exist.
What we do on these lists is basically 'mark time' until that
day comes.

*Haven't seen much of you on the List lately. Hope all is well
with you and yours Jim.


Warmest regards,

John Velez

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."








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                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 326

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 23:02:47 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 08:19:11 -0400
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 326


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 326 - 20 SEPTEMBER 2001

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- UFO Over Turin?
- National Conference on Luminous Phenomena
- New Book by Lissoni


UFO OVER TURIN?

A strange sphere fluttering in the sky, a few hundred meters
high over the Porta Nuova railway station, was sighted shortly
before noon by a police patrol on duty in Turin on Saturday, 15
September.

Similar to a small hot-air balloon or a parachute, the object
seemed to have a kind of metallic cylinder hanging down, and it
attracted the attention of a small crowd of witnesses. At police
headquarters, they contacted the Caselle Airport control tower,
but nothing was observed on the radar screens, which led to the
conjecture that the sighting might have involved a weather
balloon.

The object then rose very slowly, vanishing in the sky.

[La Repubblica, Turin edition, 16 September; Ufoitalia,
18 September; collaboration by Roberto Labanti.]


NATIONAL CONFERENCE ON LUMINOUS PHENOMENA

It's now posted on the Internet by the CISU "Commission on
Luminous Phenomena in the Atmosphere": it is the program for the
16th National UFO Conference, organized as it is each year by
the Italian Center for UFO Studies, taking place on Saturday, 13
October, and hosted this year inside of the Planetary Hall of
the Astronomic Observatory at San Giovanni in Persiceto
(Bologna), with the theme, "Luminous Phenomena in the Atmosphere
and Instrumental Ufology."

Among the topics: "Earthquake Lights and Tectonic Theory"
(Massimo Silvestri); "The Italian Wave of Ghost Lights at the
End of the Nineteenth Century" (Giuseppe Stilo); " Towards an
Instrumental Ufology" (Renzo Cabassi); "The EMBLA 2001 Mission
in Hessdalen" (Massimo Teodorani); "The Italian Catalogue of
Ball Lightning Cases" (Paolo Tosel- li); and "The Physics of
Ball Lightning" (Albino Carbognani).

[Announcements by Renzo Cabassi and Giuseppe Stilo.]


NEW BOOK BY LISSONI

Following his previous work on UFOs in non-Westernized
countries, Alfredo Lissoni now publishes his new book, entitled
"UFO progetto Genesi" ("UFO Project Genesis"), whose thesis is
the extraterrestrial presence in Ancient Israel, based on the
Bible, of apocryphal gospels and other Hebrew texts. The volume,
edited by Mir publications in Florence, totals far under 200
pages and lists for 25,000 lire.

[La Rete Cun, 20 September.]


- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website at
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di
informazione ufologica", published by the Italian
Center for UFO Studies, registered at Tribunale
di Torino, No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo.
Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso Vittorio
Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2001 by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely
copied, photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed
and retrieved, at the only condition that Centro Italiano
Studi Ufologici is reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing (just send a
blank message to: cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org








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   Oct > Oct 25

                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 327

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 23:20:22 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:28:46 -0400
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 327


- Italian Wave of Sightings Appears Over
- Ribera and McDuff Dead
- National UFO Conference in Bologna
- Little UFO Encyclopedia


ITALIAN WAVE OF SIGHTINGS APPEARS OVER

As predicted, the attacks of last 11 September in New York and
Washington caused an abrupt halt to the summer wave of sightings
of UFO phenomena taking place in Italy since the month of June.

In fact, the attention of the mass media and the general public
has shifted to the international political situation.
Consequently, the number of reported observations of aerial
phenomena remained high during the first ten days of the month,
but it has greatly diminished by now.

A comprehensive assessment of the wave will be issued by the
Italian Center for UFO Studies before next 11 October.
Meanwhile, updates are available on the Internet of the lists of
case records gathered through 10 September and updated
continuously [http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/casi0108.htm].

[Collaboration by Giorgio Abraini and Giuseppe Stilo.]


RIBERA AND McDUFF DEAD

Last 20 September, there died the Canadian Ufologist
Claude McDuff, animator during the 1970�s for the
UFO-Quebec Association, collaborator of Hynek,
and author of two books on the on the UFO argument.

[Report by Franois Bourbeau; Ovni-Sciences, 22
September.]

Meanwhile, on September 24th and just short of 81 years, there
passed away in his home on the outskirts of Barcelona Antonio
Ribera, probably the most well-known Spanish Ufologist. A
pioneer of Ufology in his country, he was among the founders of
the Center for Interplanetary Studies in 1958, and during nearly
40 years was the author of hundreds of articles and twenty-odd
UFO books, five of which were translated and also published in
Italy.

[Report by Josep Guijarro; UFO-Italia, 25 September.]


NATIONAL UFO CONFERENCE IN BOLOGNA

The countdown is on to the 16th National Ufology Conference,
currently being organized by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
and hosted this year by the Astronomic Observatory of San
Giovanni in Persiceto, just out of Bologna, on Saturday 13
October, from 10 am through 7 pm.

The theme of the 2001 edition is: �Luminous Phenomena in the
Atmosphere and Instrumental Ufology: New Avenues for Research?�,
which will span from nocturnal lights to the Hessdalen
phenomenon, from ball lightning to atmospheric lights.

During the conference, three new monographs will be presented
from the series "Documenti UFO", the fruit of the labor of as
many CISU workgroups concerning subjects within to realm of
unusual luminous phenomena.


LITTLE UFO ENCYCLOPEDIA

A new UFO book from Armenia Publications, delivered with its Eco
collection to bookstores for 14,500 lire, is a voluminous
pocket-sized work of 510 pages entitled, �La piccola grande
enciclopedia degli UFO� (�The Little Giant UFO Encyclopedia�), a
translation of a recent text by  English Ufologist Jenny
Randles.

It is subdivided into four parts: a chronology of the basic
facts on UFO history; a presentation of the data divided
into categories of typology; a view of the scene in the
principal nations worldwide; and a list of names,
acronyms, people, researchers and organizations.

As for Italy, the CISU obviously has the lion�s share, as it is
the only association mentioned and recommended as a reference
source for our country.

[Report by Gian Paolo Grassino.]


- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by  Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website at
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di informazione
ufologica", published by the Italian Center for UFO Studies,
registered at Tribunale di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo. Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso
Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2001  by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely
copied, photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed
and retrieved, at the only condition that Centro Italiano
Studi Ufologici is reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing
(just send a blank message to:
cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org









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   Oct > Oct 25

                 Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:08:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:30:58 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clark


 >From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed
 >Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:26:59 +0100


 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed
 >>Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:15:44 -0500

 >>>From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed
 >>>Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:44:16 +0100



Dave,

 >>At least we can agree on that, as long as you are including
 >>yourself in this condescending equation. In other words: "What I
 >>know, I _know_; what you know, you only _believe_." I state this
 >>not to start another tedious quarrel about Roswell, in which I
 >>will not participate, but simply to point out what rhetorically
 >>is happening here, and how pointless it is.

 >I know how fond you arye of quoting from the work of David
 >Hufford, but surely you cannot be suggesting that only
 >rationalists have prejudices.

To the contrary, my friend. I'm saying we _all_ have prejudices.
Even you. We just have to recognize them for what they are, and
try not to confuse them with ultimate truth.

 >"What I know, I know; what you
 >know, you only believe" can be turned on its head just as
 >effectively and directed towards those who continue to 'know'
 >that ET crashed at Roswell, in the face of all that has emerged
 >in the last 20 years.

Actually, the fact of the matter is that where Roswell and many
other contentious ufological issues are concerned, none of us
"knows," yourself and myself included. Condescension is a cheap
sentiment, and a cheaper tactic, and it gets us nowhere.

I have great admiration for your research efforts, and less of it
for your seeming need to spin whatever you come up with into
an object lesson in Dave Clarke's infallible judgments.

Where the UFO phenomenon is concerned, one lesson all of us
ought to have learned by now is intellectual modesty. It ill
behooves us to pretend that we know more than we really know.
At present all we have, wherever we are coming from, are
informed opinions, whose validity only history will be able to
judge, and history takes its own good time.

In the meantime, I am intrigued by Chester P. Barton's
testimony* and can only shake my head at Ralph Noyes's
insistence (cited by you in the previous posting as, I gather,
your idea of devastating disconfirmation) that if
Roswell-as-extraordinary-event had happened, someone would have
told him about it. With all due respect, that statement is, or
should be, meaningless to anybody but the late Mr. Noyes. Barton
-- who, after all, was there at Roswell -- is the one (among
others) to whom we ought to be paying attention and from whom we
may actually learn something. Even if that testimony is
inconsistent with the hypothesis -- if I were uncharitable, I'd
say belief -- that Roswell was about nothing of consequence.


Cordially,

Jerry Clark

*Joseph Stefula (with additional commentary by Mark Rodeghier),
"The Roswell Testimony of Chester P. Barton," International UFO
Reporter, Summer 2001, pp. 21-23, 29-30.










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                       Re: Rendlesham Radiation - Hale

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 04:44:53 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:39:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Rendlesham Radiation - Hale


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Rendlesham Radiation
 >Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:13:49 +0100

 >One excellent hypothesis is that it was a re-entry of a KH-9
 >film cannister. The measured radiation levels have been used by
 >ETH explanation propounders to support their hypothesis, but is
 >far from the only element indicating that something happened.


Joe,

Is this your theory on what happened? Only I have to ask if you
are basing any of this on any of the base witnesses details on
the nights in question? I think before we lose the public in
hundreds of numbers, we should at least first verify one point.
Objects were seen, both in the sky and on the ground, under some
intelligent control, therefore making such a theory as the one
you mention quite (in my book at least) unfeasible. Can your
KH-9 Film canister move between forest trees once it has landed?
And again, would any of the people on the base at the time, have
any specific knowledge on such a device?

How many film canisters would be needed over the period of
nights to cause such a commotion in a rural part of the UK? And
surely Georgina Bruni (one of the UKs in-depth rendlesham
investigators) would have come across such a theory in her
lengthy digging?


Roy...









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                                  New Video

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 05:08:21 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:40:35 -0400
Subject: New Video


Hi All,

Just to highlight a new video by Chris Martin - I wrote and
composed the soundtrack.

http://www.ufomag.co.uk/EXCLUSIVE01.htm


Thanks,

Roy..









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                 Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:16:01 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:42:16 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Gates


 >From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:06:50 +0100


 >>From: Pat McCartney <ElPatricio@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:59:13 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>The example that always comes to mind is the late Barry
 >>Goldwater's attempts to personally examine purported UFO relics
 >>at Wright- Patterson Air Force Base. If anything, Goldwater's
 >>credentials far outweighed Cochrane's. He was a general in the
 >>Air Force Reserves, and as a U.S. senator chaired the Senate's
 >>Select Committee on Intelligence. Banking on his longtime
 >>friendship with General Curtis LeMay, the Wright-Patterson
 >>commander at the time, Goldwater made repeated requests to visit
 >>locations at Wright-Patterson where it was rumored that such
 >>artifacts were stored.


 >Hi Pat,

 >The most important word here is "rumored."

 >My dictionary defines "rumour" as "general talk or hearsay of
 >doubtful accuracy" and "a current but unverified statement or
 >assertion."

While Dave appears to "focus" on the word "rumored" he
apparently hasn't read the letters from Goldwater stating that
the subject was classified above Top Secret and that not even he
had access to it as either a US Senator or USAF General.


Cheers,

Robert









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                 Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:26:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:45:15 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Gates


 >From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:26:59 +0100

Jerry Clark wrote:

 >>Meantime, the Summer 2001 issue of International UFO Reporter
 >>(published by CUFOS, 2457 West Peterson Avenue, Chicago,
 >>Illinois 60659; yes, this is a plug) carries a fascinating
 >>article, Joseph Stefula's "The Roswell Testimony of Chester P.
 >>Parton." Yet another piece of testimony, this time from a truly
 >>unexpected (and well-placed) source, casting yet more doubt on
 >>the standard debunking theories about what happened in New
 >>Mexico in July 1947. It is safe to say that, Dave's earnest and
 >>no doubt sincere words above notwithstanding, thoughtful people
 >>will continue to wonder about and debate the Roswell incident.
 >>It seems safe to say, too, that those who demand certainty even
 >>when none is available are doomed only to a lifetime of
 >>frustration.

Dave Responded:

 >When you can produce some authenticated document in support of
 >your "wonder" I'll be happy to change my mind, but in the
 >meantime I reserve the right to remain sceptical. Again, "people
 >will believe what they want to believe", me included.

The skeptical mindset has been over the years:

1) No amount of documents or evidence will ever convince... (so)

2) Most if not all documents and evidence are proof of
    misidentification, hoax, stars, balloons or errors by the
    witness... (but)

3) If said document or evidence cannot be explained as above,
    then we attack the credibility of the witness...

4) Bottom line it absolutly cannot be, so no matter what or who
    everything points to some "earthly" explaination.... (if)

5) We are unable to find said earthly explaination we cling to
    the hope that someday, sometime, someone, will come up with
    said earthly explaination.


Cheers,

Robert









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             EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO Case?

From: Kurt Jonach <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:16:50 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:48:35 -0400
Subject: EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO Case?


------------------------------------------------------------

The Electric Warrior : News Blog October 24, 2001

------------------------------------------------------------
RETIRED NAVAL OFFICER CONFIRMS FAMOUS UFO CASE?
UFO & ETI news

This item from the Associated Press touches on a famous
UFO/ETI case in Mississippi...

21-Oct-01 Navy retiree says he also saw spaceship 28 years ago
http://www.djournal.com/djournal/site/articles/news/699342.htm

(djournal.com/AP) When Charles Hickson and Calvin Parker told
the world in 1973 they were abducted by aliens while fishing on
the Pascagoula River, few people believed them... A retired Navy
chief petty officer recently contacted The Mississippi Press
about the sighting that he can't forget... [Hickson] "These
things are robots. I didn't see any eyes. They had no indication
of breathing. They didn't have a mouth. It was a straight slit.
It seems they had something to do and they just actually done
it. Took us back out there, put us down and they left."

------------------------------------------------------------
HICKSON/PARKER ENTITY DOODLE
ufo & eti news

Mac Tonnies describes himself as a relentless doodler. It turns
out Mac recently posted some drawings related to the Mississippi
incident...

19-Oct-01 Drawing of Hickson/Parker Entity
http://mactonnies.com/doodles3.html

(MacTonnies.com) I found and scanned a drawing I did of the
entity allegedly encountered by Hickson and Parker in
Mississippi. For whatever it's worth, it can be see here.

------------------------------------------------------------
NATIONAL IDENTITY CARD
technology news

With regard to the local story EW has been running, it's bad
news for Silicon Valley moguls, good news for conspiracy
theorists. The Los Angeles Times clears the air on the subject
of national identity cards...

24-Oct-01 National ID Card System Failing to Attract Supporters

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-102401idcards.story

(Los Angeles Times) - Calls for a national system of
identification cards sparked by the Sept. 11 attacks on the
World Trade Center and the Pentagon have gained little traction,
failing to win endorsements from the Bush administration or
congressional leaders...the idea of a national ID has run into
many of the same criticisms as in previous decades, when it was
seen as an answer to illegal immigration and other problems.
Both civil liberties groups and many conservatives oppose it.

------------------------------------------------------------
MIAMI UFO CENTER

Thanks again to Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo for the use of his
story about the former Chilean Naval chief. The plain-text
(email) version of the story failed to include a URL to the Web
sites. Here they are...

Miami UFO Center (Spanish)
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/ufomiami/

Miami UFO Reporter (English)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/1341/

------------------------------------------------------------
THE ELECTRIC WARRIOR
October 24, 2001
Silicon Valley, CA
http://www.electricwarrior.com

eWarrior@electricwarrior.com









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   Oct > Oct 25

                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 328

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:19:33 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:53:14 -0400
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 328


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 328 -  4 OCTOBER 2001

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- Two New Monographs for the Conference
- A Book on Area 51
- Sergio Conti Dead
- A Stop to the Publicity Using Aliens?


TWO NEW MONOGRAPHS FOR THE CONFERENCE

Two new monographs by the Italian Center for UFO Studies have
just been issued in the series "Documenti UFO"  by  UPIAR
Publications, in advance of the 16th National UFO Conference,
which is dedicated this year to the theme: "Luminous Phenomena
in the Atmosphere and Instrumental Ufology: New Avenues for
Research?"

The first monograph is manly consisting of the research by
Giuseppe Stilo on "ghost lights" and, in particular, on the wave
of sightings in Italy between the Late 19th and the Early 20th
centuries, alongside which the author has provided an ample
introduction to the theme of "earthlights" (recurring lights
that appear linked to a specific territorial area), and a wide,
unprecedented international bibliography on that subject. "Luci
lontane" ("Distant Lights") totals a good 92 pages and lists for
18,000 lire (14,500 lire for CISU members, free to donors).

The second monograph ("EQL - Le luci sismiche") is an
introduction to earthquake lights, i.e. the mysterious lights
described in association with earthquakes and other geological
phenomena. It's by Massimo Silvestri, who has directed this
sector within the CISU Committe for Luminous Phenomena in the
Atmosphere, and who has himself also edited a rich bibliography
about the theme. It totals 52 pages and lists for 10,000 lire
(8,000 lire for subscribers).

The monographs will be presented and made available during the
announced CISU 16th National UFO Conference, which will be held
in the Planetary Hall of the Astronomic Observatory at San
Giovanni in Persiceto (Bologna) on Saturday 13 October,
beginning at 10 am and running through 7 pm.

[Collaboration by Gian Paolo Grassino.]


A BOOK ON THE AREA 51
Making its way into bookstores from Fanucci publications, is an
interesting read penned by Phil Patton and entitled "Dreamland
- Un reportage dall'Area 51" ("Dreamland  - A Report from Area
51"), totaling 380 pages and listing at 28,000 lire.

The author, a journalist and writer, carries out a journey of
research on the roots of the myth of this location, from the
true mysteries of the Cold War to the to the implications for
UFOs, and from the actual American superweapons to the
conspiracy fanatics.

[Report by Maurizio Morini.]


SERGIO CONTI DEAD

A new struggle for Ufology, this time on the Italian front: the
death in Florence of the journalist Sergio Conti.

Born in 1921, and for a long time passionate about puzzles and
parapsychology, he played a central role since 1971 in the
publication of the monthly, "Il Giornale dei Misteri" (The
Journal of Mysteries) from Corrado Tedeschi publ., and was thus
among the group of Tuscan scholars who met at the Sezione
Ufologica Fiorentina, where for years he penned almost all the
articles published on the G.d.M. and relative to inquiries by
the various UFO youth groups headed by the SUF.

Author or co-author of various books on arguments dealing with
mysteries and the unusual, his name figured on the covers of all
three volumes of the series, "UFO in Italia" ("UFO's in Italy").

[Collaboration by Giorgio Russolillo and Gianni Settimo.]


A STOP TO ALIENS IN ADVERTISING?

The terrorist attacks in the United States have led, among other
things, to growing difficulties throughout the tourism sector.
But the attacks seem also to have instigated what could turn out
to be an overall halt to the promotional campaigns making
reference to the alien-arrival theme.

In fact, the Regional Union of Thermal Springs has announced, at
Salsomaggiore, the suspension of the planned autumn publicity
campaign slated for the cinema, with a spot featuring the
benefits of  a period of R&R from a thermal springs vacation,
via a series of images of spaceships from outer space dropping
in on the region of Emilia-Romagna.

The campaign was no longer considered appropriate, because it
evoked the air assault on New York and, even, a
counterproductive feeling of insecurity. The regional tourism
agency, which coordinated the "flying saucers" campaign
throughout various locations of Emilia-Romagna over the last few
months, has left to the Region's president the final decision
whether to suspend the planned project.

[Gazzetta di Parma, 3 October; Ufo-Italia, 3 October;
collaboration by Roberto Labanti.]

- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free
phone/Internet information service on UFOs edited
weekly by  Edoardo Russo for the Italian Center for
UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici),
available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294,
or by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website
at http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di
informazione ufologica", published by the Italian
Center for UFO Studies, registered at Tribunale
di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo.
Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso Vittorio
Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2001  by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing
(just send a blank message to:
cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org








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   Oct > Oct 25

                     Re: Richard Doty Interview? - Myers

From: Royce Myers <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:19:56 +0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:56:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Richard Doty Interview? - Myers


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 23:41:27 EDT
 >Subject: Richard Doty Interview?
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Royce,

 >I was curious if you have been able to conduct your Doty
 >interview yet.


Hi Robert,

I started the interview with Richard some time ago. As you may
or may not know, Richard is a Sergeant with the New Mexico State
Police and his position, along with his special details for that
unit, keep him very busy. Last I heard there was some sort of
personal tragedy that had taken place in Richard's life and
decided to give Richard some time to deal with whatever he
needed to deal with.

I do hope to complete the interview. There appears to be a lot
about Richard that some people probably aren't aware of. To say
the least, what I have so far is interesting but I will not be
publishing it until the interview is complete. Richard, are you
out there? I will be sending another e-mail to him shortly.


Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM
--








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   Oct > Oct 25

              Re: EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:05:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 11:02:29 -0400
Subject: Re: EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO


 >From: Kurt Jonach <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
 >To: <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
 >Subject: EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO Case?
 >Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:16:50 -0700


<snip>

  ------------------------------------------------------------
 >RETIRED NAVAL OFFICER CONFIRMS FAMOUS UFO CASE?
 >UFO & ETI news

 >A retired Navy chief petty officer recently contacted The
 >Mississippi Press  about the sighting that he can't forget...

List, all,

For those interested in such things, a chief petty officer is
not a commissioned officer but an *NCO... in the Army, this
would be the same as a sergeant...

KRandle


*[NCO = Non-Commisioned Officer--ebk]








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   Oct > Oct 25

                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 329

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:24:06 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:10:51 -0400
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 329


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 329 -  11 OCTOBER 2001

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- All this Summer UFOs
- National UFO Conference at San Giovanni
     in Persiceto
- Two More CISU Monographs
- A New UFO Book for Kids


ALL THIS SUMMER UFOS

As announced, Giuseppe Stilo made public the definitive summary
lists of data gathered by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
relative to the wave of UFO sightings over Italy during the
summer months of this year: to date, we've got  as many as 385
cases, of which 71 occurred in June, 88 in July, 190 in August,
and 36 in September.

The new version of the reports list, heretofore catalogued by
the CISU working group, is available on the Internet at the URL:
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/casi0108.htm Any correction or addition
will be most welcome.

Beginning with the month of October, the CISU will keep on with
the real-time monitoring of new case reports, through the help
of a now well-tested ad-hoc telematic mailing list, where some
ten active members are collaborating. In a short time,
additionally, summary lists from the preceding months will be
made public and kept updated.

[Report by Giuseppe Stilo.]


NATIONAL UFO CONFERENCE AT SAN GIOVANNI
IN PERSICETO

Taking place this weekend at San Giovanni in Persiceto (Bologna)
is the 16th National UFO Conference, organized by the Italian
Center for UFO Studies at the Planetary Hall of the local
Astronomic Observatory.

This year's theme: "Luminous Phenomena in the Atmosphere and
Instrumental Ufology: New Avenues for Research?"

Papers will be presented on: "Earthquake Lights and Tectonic
Theory" (Massimo Silvestri), "The Italian Wave of Ghost Lights
at the End of the 19th Century" (Giuseppe Stilo), "Towards a
Instrumental Ufology" (Renzo Cabassi), "The Embla 2001 Mission
in Hessdalen" (Massimo Teodorani), "The Italian Catalogue of
Ball Lightning Reports" (Paolo Toselli) and "The Physics of Ball
Lightning" (Albino Carbognani).

The day after the conference there will be the CISU members
annual general meeting, with the approval of balance sheets and
the election of the new council of directors.


TWO MORE CISU MONOGRAPHS

Just before the national conference, two more monographs by the
Italian Center for UFO Studies have just been published in the
series "Documenti UFO" by UPIAR publications Ltd.

The first one concerns one of the themes of the conference and
at the same time is an absolute primer for our country: "BLITA:
The Italian Catalogue of Ball Lightning Observations", by Paolo
Toselli. It contains 184 detailed forms of as many cases,
complete with coordinates, environmental data, sources and a
description of every sighting, plus an introduction to the
database project, a premise penned by the Russian physicist
Vladimir Bychkov, some statistics, and a closing statement on
the similarities and differences between ball lightning and UFO
sightings (108 pages, lists for 22,000 lire; 17,500 lire for
CISU members, free to donors).

The second monograph is another thematic catalogue, but this
time more typically UFO-oriented in nature. Marco Orlandi has
finally completed his "AirCat - The Italian Catalogue of
Sightings Made by Pilots and UFO-Airplane Interactions": 330
detailed cases from 1936 through 2001, with two introductory and
concluding articles (52 pages, 11,000 lire; 8,000 lire for CISU
members).

[Report by Gian Paolo Grassino and Paolo Toselli.]


A NEW UFO BOOK FOR KIDS

A new little book on UFOs has just been published, aimed at
teen-agers. It is titled "UFO  Dischi Volanti, Extraterrestri,
Avvistamenti, Incontri e Complotti" ("UFO's  Flying Saucers,
Extraterrestrials, Sightings, Encounters and Conspiracies")",
and it's published by Kybernet in Serravalle Pistoiese for the
collection, "Le Kikke di Kyber" : tiny monographs dealing with
"themes most beloved by teenagers."

[Report by Giancarlo D'Alessandro]

- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free
phone/Internet information service on UFOs edited
weekly by  Edoardo Russo for the Italian Center for
UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici),
available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294,
or by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website
at http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di
informazione ufologica", published by the Italian
Center for UFO Studies, registered at Tribunale
di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo.
Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso Vittorio
Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2001  by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing
(just send a blank message to:
cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 25

              Re: EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:25:08 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:17:08 -0400
Subject: Re: EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:05:50 EDT
 >Subject: Re: EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO Case?
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Kurt Jonach <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
 >>To: <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
 >>Subject: EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO Case?
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:16:50 -0700

 ><snip>
 > ------------------------------------------------------------
 >>RETIRED NAVAL OFFICER CONFIRMS FAMOUS UFO CASE?
 >>UFO & ETI news

 >>A retired Navy chief petty officer recently contacted The
 >>Mississippi Press about the sighting that he can't forget...

 >List, all,

 >For those interested in such things, a chief petty officer is
 >not a commissioned officer but an *NCO... in the Army, this
 >would be the same as a sergeant...

 >KRandle

 >*[NCO = Non-Commisioned Officer--ebk]

Dear Kevin,

I don't understand your argument? Are you insinuating that
because of the person's _rank_ as an NCO (non-commissioned
officer) that he is in someway unreliable, or that his testimony
is questionable, or that his rank had anything at all to do with
his ability to report what he claims to have experienced, or
that his senses were somehow diminished by his rank? If that's
what you are arguing, your ability to logically reason are
certainly in question. What are you saying exactly? Maybe I
misunderstood!? I hope so.

I just snipped the excerpt show below from another email and
thought you might want to reconsider the premise you are using
for such an inane statement. Is the Chief of Naval Operations in
Chile a "high" enough _rank_ for you (for you to get your head
around the _possibility_ that these people are reporting
_exactly_ what they have experienced)? Or, do you now change
your argument based on the fact that he is a Chilean, albeit an
officer, nevertheless, _not_ as reliable as an American officer
holding the same _rank_?


From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:10:16 -0400
To: ufoupdates@home.com
Subject: Filer's Files #43 - 10-24-01

<snip>

CHILEAN CHIEF OF NAVAL OPERATIONS SAYS, "UFOs ARE REAL"

SANTIAGO DE CHILE -- Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo reports, "The
former Chilean Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Jorge Martinez
declared, "UFOs are real." The ex-CNO made the shocking
statement during interview with a Chilean television network.
The interview was conducted by journalist from Teletrece. The
retired admiral admitted that he personally witnessed two UFOs
at sea, when he was a young lieutenant, and saw a very luminous
white object in front of his patrol boat. When he took command
of his first destroyer, then Captain Martinez saw another
similar object emerging from the water, creating a strong
interference with the navigation system and the ship's radar.
Guillermo Jimenez, another former Chilean officer claimed that
the sonar system onboard his ship detected two submarine-like
objects that caused similar malfunctions with shipboard
electronics. "They displayed the same size and metallic resonant
characteristics that ordinary subs typically show; however,
these! objects were too fast to be submarines," said Jimenez.
Both Jimenez and Martinez described how the gyrocompass systems
were out of control. "The radar displays went completely blank
and the gyro was spinning very rapidly, as if a strong magnetic
force was present." Some UFO investigators call this phenomenon
"UUO" or unidentified underwater objects. Interviewer Rodrigo
Ugarte told us that there were many other officers that
described similar events but did not want to go on the air.
Thanks to Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo Mario and Miami UFO Center
ufomiami@prodigy.net 10-21-1


It's no wonder we get nowhere fast in ufology. Is this is the
kind of mindset and reasoning we must deal with continuously for
the next 50 years? You were born in the wrong era, Kevin. You
should have been born back in the 1600's, when everyone _but_
Galileo thought the Earth stood still in the heavens.

Hypothetically speaking, and by following your sort of
reasoning, Kevin, even if the ETs land on the Whitehouse lawn,
if someone other than the President is photographed meeting the
ETs as they emerge from their ship, it may not be "reliable
enough evidence." Or is the "Commander in Chief" not a "high"
enough _rank_? Groan. Don't bother to answer _me_. You need to
redefine your thinking for yourself.


Sue Strickland
ex-abductee









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   Oct > Oct 25

                    Re: Rendlesham Radiation - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:55:14 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:19:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Rendlesham Radiation - McGonagle


 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 04:44:53 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Rendlesham Radiation


Hello Roy/List,

 >>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Rendlesham Radiation
 >>Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:13:49 +0100

 >>One excellent hypothesis is that it was a re-entry of a KH-9
 >>film cannister. The measured radiation levels have been used by
 >>ETH explanation propounders to support their hypothesis, but is
 >>far from the only element indicating that something happened.

 >Joe,

 >Is this your theory on what happened? Only I have to ask if you
 >are basing any of this on any of the base witnesses details on
 >the nights in question? I think before we lose the public in
 >hundreds of numbers, we should at least first verify one point.
 >Objects were seen, both in the sky and on the ground, under some
 >intelligent control, therefore making such a theory as the one
 >you mention quite (in my book at least) unfeasible. Can your
 >KH-9 Film canister move between forest trees once it has landed?
 >And again, would any of the people on the base at the time, have
 >any specific knowledge on such a device?

 >How many film canisters would be needed over the period of
 >nights to cause such a commotion in a rural part of the UK? And
 >surely Georgina Bruni (one of the UKs in-depth rendlesham
 >investigators) would have come across such a theory in her
 >lengthy digging?

This is only one_of_several possible theories, but it does have
a certain appeal to me and is marginally more likely than many
of the other theories that have been proposed. For details,
please visit:

http://www.kca07.dial.pipex.com/theory.htm

The reasons that I think it to be MARGINALLY more likely are as
follows:

1. We know that the KH-9 sattelite were in use at that time.

2. We know that KH-9 used pods of some kind to deliver the film
back to the earth's surface.

3. We know that recovery of these pods was part of the duties
covered by the 67th ARRS, which was based at Woodbridge.

4. We know that if such an incident did occur, the Military
would want to conceal the fact.

The repetition of events over several nights could well have
been a smoke-screen, to create the belief that it was a UFO
event. Even the people involved would not have been told the
real nature of the events. They may even have gone to the extent
of setting up a pantomime, complete with aliens in order to
achieve their intent of covering up the facts that KH-9 existed,
how it worked, and that heavy film cannisters were dropping out
of the sky over the UK mainland (causing some risk to anyone who
happened to be below it!).

Obviously, with the exception of points 1-4, this is pure
hypothesis, and I am by no means convinced that this is the
answer to the puzzle, but it is a very good contender, in my
opinion.

I believe that Georgina became aware of the theory after her
book was at an advanced stage, though I may be wrong.

As for whether the cannister could move between the trees, this
wouldn't be neccessary if_the_military_were employing some
pre-planned or hastily developed recovery pantomime, however,
even aside from that scenario, if a parachute was still attached
it would be possible for it to be dragged through the trees, if
the canopy was still above tree-level.

As I said, I am not convinced that this is the answer, but it
has to be considered as a possibility.


Regards,


Joe









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   Oct > Oct 25

                Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clarke

From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:20:31 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:20:50 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clarke


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:26:43 EDT
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:26:59 +0100

Robert wrote:

 >The skeptical mindset has been over the years:

I'll turn this predictable response upon its head:

 >1) No amount of documents or evidence will ever convince... (so)

No amount of documents will ever convince there is no cover-up/
conspiracy. No matter how many are released, the 'ultimate
secret' will always be hidden in those we don't get to see.

 >2) Most if not all documents and evidence are proof of
 >  misidentification, hoax, stars, balloons or errors by the
 >  witness... (but)

See (3) below

 >3) If said document or evidence cannot be explained as above,
 >  then we attack the credibility of the witness...

Witnesses are rarely if ever mistaken and we should always
accept what they tell us at face value.

 >4) Bottom line it absolutly cannot be, so no matter what or who
 >  everything points to some "earthly" explaination.... (if)

When something seen in the sky is not readily identifiable the
most logical next step is to believe it was an ET spaceship.

 >5) We are unable to find said earthly explaination we cling to
 >  the hope that someday, sometime, someone, will come up with
 >  said earthly explaination.

We cling to the hope that there is life out there and that it is
visiting us.

Nothing wrong with that, as long as we accept that's what it
amounts to!

Cheers,

Dave Clarke










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                 Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clarke

From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:18:10 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:23:00 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clarke


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed
 >Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:08:41 -0500

 >>From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:26:59 +0100


Hi Jerry,

 >>I know how fond you are of quoting from the work of David
 >>Hufford, but surely you cannot be suggesting that only
 >>rationalists have prejudices.

 >To the contrary, my friend. I'm saying we _all_ have prejudices.
 >Even you. We just have to recognize them for what they are, and
 >try not to confuse them with ultimate truth.

Thanks for making my point for me so effectively.

 >>"What I know, I know; what you
 >>know, you only believe" can be turned on its head just as
 >>effectively and directed towards those who continue to 'know'
 >>that ET crashed at Roswell, in the face of all that has emerged
 >>in the last 20 years.

 >Actually, the fact of the matter is that where Roswell and many
 >other contentious ufological issues are concerned, none of us
 >"knows," yourself and myself included. Condescension is a cheap
 >sentiment, and a cheaper tactic, and it gets us nowhere.

If that is the case, why don't you practice what you preach, 'my
friend' ?

 >I have great admiration for your research efforts, and less of it
 >for your seeming need to spin whatever you come up with into
 >an object lesson in Dave Clarke's infallible judgments.

 >Where the UFO phenomenon is concerned, one lesson all of us
 >ought to have learned by now is intellectual modesty. It ill
 >behooves us to pretend that we know more than we really know.
 >At present all we have, wherever we are coming from, are
 >informed opinions, whose validity only history will be able to
 >judge, and history takes its own good time.

As above. History will be our judge; my conclusions are based
upon examination of evidence and will stand or fall upon that
basis. Nowhere have I ever claimed my conclusions are
"infallible" and a truly objective researcher will always be
prepared to change his or her mind if new evidence emerges. My
*opinions* are no more valid or superior than anyone's else's.
But I fail to understand where "intellectual modesty" comes into
the equation; if one does original research and then presents
it, using that research to make informed comment, then one is
portrayed as being "condescending" or lacking in "intellectual
modesty."

I do apologise for having had the gall to produce original
research backed up by original documents. In every other
discipline or science, research and informed conclusions are
part and parcel of intellectual progress.

Only in Ufology could such a bizarre topsy-turvy attitude
be adopted - no wonder the subject could never be accepted
by mainstream science.

 >In the meantime, I am intrigued by Chester P. Barton's
 >testimony* and can only shake my head at Ralph Noyes's
 >insistence (cited by you in the previous posting as, I gather,
 >your idea of devastating disconfirmation) that if
 >Roswell-as-extraordinary-event had happened, someone would have
 >told him about it. With all due respect, that statement is, or
 >should be, meaningless to anybody but the late Mr. Noyes. Barton
 >-- who, after all, was there at Roswell -- is the one (among
 >others) to whom we ought to be paying attention and from whom we
 >may actually learn something. Even if that testimony is
 >inconsistent with the hypothesis -- if I were uncharitable, I'd
 >say belief -- that Roswell was about nothing of consequence.

Jerry, if you feel Roswell was such an important event in
Ufological history then how come the case failed to receive an
entry of its own in your UFO Enyclopedia? Could it be that you
are not quite so "certain" of its status "as extraordinary"
after all?


All the best,

Dave Clarke










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                Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Deardorff

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 11:16:02 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:29:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Deardorff


 >Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:36:56 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction

 >>Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:51:55 -0700
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction

<snip>

 >>John,

 >>If someone gathered a mass of data on the prevalence of scoop
 >>marks on Americans (the general populace), how would you go about
 >>trying to decide what fraction of them were associated with
 >>abductions - abductees who didn't know they were abductees, or
 >>weren't at all certain?

 >Hiya Jim,

 >The short answer to that one is; there is no way to know "for
 >sure" who may or may not be an "abductee." I'm not a scientist
 >Jim, and I don't pretend to know what the right 'procedures'
 >are. I do know however that it is important to determine how
 >'common' or 'uncommon' these scoop marks may be. If every other
 >person has one, that tells us one thing. If it is a rare
 >occurrence, or something only found on the bodies of those
 >reporting UFO abduction, that will tell us another thing. It has
 >to be taken in steps. My point is however; that steps do need to
 >be taken. They haven't been, so far. I frankly don't think they
 >ever will be either.  ;)
 >...

Hi John,

If a new poll were taken that reported scoop marks (not just
puzzling scars) to be present on from 5 to 15% of the
population, this could support the 1991 Roper poll on the
prevalence of abductions by aliens. Or, it could support a
belief that it has not been uncommon for people to acquire such
markings naturally without recalling how they got them. Or
anything in between.

Of course, if results from a new poll included a finding that
most of the scoop marks were noticed within a day or few after
having had a weird, UFO-like or dream-like experience, this
would impress many of us, but would be regarded by science
skeptics as just "anecdotal" evidence. Even when a UFO report is
accompanied by a UFO photograph or two by the witness, the
skeptics are totally unimpressed, as you know, since their
assumption is that the alleged witness is a liar or hoaxer
unless proven otherwise beyond much greater doubt than any photo
can overcome. So it is with scoop marks. They won't go anywhere
in uncovering the coverup. But I do agree that it would be good
to know this information for our own edification.








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                  Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:09:07 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:30:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Rimmer


 >From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:51:13 -0600

 >You will _not_ be given his name under any circumstances,
 >because it will _not_ be his opinion, but rather the historical
 >published opinion of others. Therefore, anyone's 'inability' to
 >accept the facts (whatever they may be... if there _are_ any!)
 >becomes a 'personal preference'.


How strange that we hardly ever seem to be given the names,
qualifications or professional backgrounds of doctors,
psychiatrists, engineeers, etc. who pronounce on abductions.
Without knowing who these people are and what their positions
are, there pronoucements have no more value than those of you,
me or Joe Soap.


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk









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                 Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:27:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:46:15 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clark


 >From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:06:50 +0100


 >>From: Pat McCartney <ElPatricio@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:59:13 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>The example that always comes to mind is the late Barry
 >>Goldwater's attempts to personally examine purported UFO relics
 >>at Wright- Patterson Air Force Base. If anything, Goldwater's
 >>credentials far outweighed Cochrane's. He was a general in the
 >>Air Force Reserves, and as a U.S. senator chaired the Senate's
 >>Select Committee on Intelligence. Banking on his longtime
 >>friendship with General Curtis LeMay, the Wright-Patterson
 >>commander at the time, Goldwater made repeated requests to visit
 >>locations at Wright-Patterson where it was rumored that such
 >>artifacts were stored.

 >The most important word here is "rumored."

 >My dictionary defines "rumour" as "general talk or hearsay of
 >doubtful accuracy" and "a current but unverified statement or
 >assertion."

The story of Goldwater's curious experience is hardly a mere
"rumor."

When The New Yorker profiled him in 1988 (April 25 issue),
Goldwater discussed it openly. He said he had asked his good
friend Air Force Gen. Curtis LeMay if he -- Goldwater -- could
have access to a "Blue Room" at Wright-Patterson, where
Goldwater understood UFO remains were kept. According to
Goldwater, LeMay gave him "holy hell." He informed Goldwater
that he -- Goldwater -- did not have the necessary clearances,
and he warned him never to bring up the subject again.

Some rumor. Some reaction to same.


Jerry Clark










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                      Re: Rendlesham Radiation - Bolton

From: David Bolton <David@bolton.sol.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:28:09 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:43:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Rendlesham Radiation - Bolton


 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 04:44:53 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Rendlesham Radiation

 >Objects were seen, both in the sky and on the ground, under some
 >intelligent control,

Correction - people have _reported_ seeing strange objects - its
not the same as people actually seeing strange objects.

 >surely Georgina Bruni (one of the UKs in-depth rendlesham
 >investigators) would have come across such a theory in her lengthy
 >digging?

Try looking at page 349 of 'You Can't Tell The People'. KH9 was
the name of the camera system that was flown on the Big Bird
satellite.

The theory does, IMO, have a fair amount going for it.
Authorities would not be happy to admit that they allowed the
USAF to deliberately de-orbit pieces of space hardware over the
top of Sizewell, a nuclear power station. A UFO smokescreen is
probably as good a cover as any.


Dave B

--
David G Bolton
<David@Bolton.SOL.co.uk>








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                 Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:05:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:46:59 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clark


 >From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed
 >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:18:10 +0100

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:08:41 -0500

 >>>From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed
 >>>Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:26:59 +0100


Dave,

 >>>I know how fond you are of quoting from the work of David
 >>>Hufford, but surely you cannot be suggesting that only
 >>>rationalists have prejudices.

 >>To the contrary, my friend. I'm saying we _all_ have prejudices.
 >>Even you. We just have to recognize them for what they are, and
 >>try not to confuse them with ultimate truth.

 >Thanks for making my point for me so effectively.

You just can't help yourself, can you?

Besides the above, I submit as evidence your patronizing words
to the Observer (October 21). There you condescend not only to
ufologists who don't automatically nod vigorously at any
pronouncement from Mount Clarke, but to the British
national-security establishment itself. You inform Observer
readers that it was mere "Cold War paranoia" that caused
officials responsible to fear that the Soviets could make
psychological-warfare use of UFO reports. The only paranoia I
see here is yours. MOD's concern, given the realities of the
time, to which apparently you have paid but modest attention,
strikes me as entirely reasonable. I suspect that most people
who know something of Cold War history would feel the same.

 >>>"What I know, I know; what you
 >>>know, you only believe" can be turned on its head just as
 >>>effectively and directed towards those who continue to 'know'
 >>>that ET crashed at Roswell, in the face of all that has emerged
 >>>in the last 20 years.

 >>Actually, the fact of the matter is that where Roswell and many
 >>other contentious ufological issues are concerned, none of us
 >>"knows," yourself and myself included. Condescension is a cheap
 >>sentiment, and a cheaper tactic, and it gets us nowhere.

 >If that is the case, why don't you practice what you preach, 'my
 >friend'?

And this is supposed to mean what exactly? Am I supposed to feel
personal hostility toward you, as opposed to holding you to be a
colleague, even if (from my point of view) an occasionally
erring one, and a friendly acquaintance? My word. Could it be,
dare I say, that you're betraying your own paranoia?

 >But I fail to understand where "intellectual modesty" comes into
 >the equation; if one does original research and then presents
 >it, using that research to make informed comment, then one is
 >portrayed as being "condescending" or lacking in "intellectual
 >modesty."

Ah, if only you could see yourself as others see you. Not a
revelation or discovery comes from Dave Clarke that is
unaccompanied by a lecture or sermon, the point of which is
always that you are smart and everybody who thinks otherwise is
not just wrong but blind and stupid. See, for example, the
above-mentioned Observer piece.

 >I do apologise for having had the gall to produce original
 >research backed up by original documents. In every other
 >discipline or science, research and informed conclusions are
 >part and parcel of intellectual progress.

This is precisely the sort of self-serving guff that makes it
hard at times to take you entirely seriously. If you really feel
the need to apologize, apologize for something real, such as
your chronic self-righteousness, in evidence most recently in
your words immediately above..

 >Only in Ufology could such a bizarre topsy-turvy attitude >be
adopted - no wonder the subject could never be accepted >by
mainstream science.

This so goofy that it amounts to its own refutation. Come on,
Dr. Dave. You're smarter than that.

 >Jerry, if you feel Roswell was such an important event in
 >Ufological history then how come the case failed to receive an
 >entry of its own in your UFO Enyclopedia? Could it be that you
 >are not quite so "certain" of its status "as extraordinary"
 >after all?

I am satisfied with the treatment I gave the case in my
encyclopedia. As for the mind-reading effort you so generously
provide, let me disappoint you with the news that your mental
radio is clearly having serious reception problems.


Cheers,

Jerry Clark











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                 Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:00:06 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 00:11:59 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Rimmer


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed
 >Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:08:41 -0500

 >>>At least we can agree on that, as long as you are including
 >>>yourself in this condescending equation.

 >To the contrary, my friend. I'm saying we _all_ have prejudices.
 >Even you.

Jerry, are you aware of just how condescending your constant use
of the phrase "my friend" is?


John Rimmer

Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk









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                  Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:25:36 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 00:13:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Velez


 >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:09:07 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction

 >>From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:51:13 -0600

 >>You will _not_ be given his name under any circumstances,
 >>because it will _not_ be his opinion, but rather the historical
 >>published opinion of others. Therefore, anyone's 'inability' to
 >>accept the facts (whatever they may be... if there _are_ any!)
 >>becomes a 'personal preference'.

 >How strange that we hardly ever seem to be given the names,
 >qualifications or professional backgrounds of doctors,
 >psychiatrists, engineeers, etc. who pronounce on abductions.
 >Without knowing who these people are and what their positions
 >are, there pronoucements have no more value than those of you,
 >me or Joe Soap.

 >John Rimmer

Hi John,

In a 'perfect world' physicians would not need fear and
professional repercussions for involving themselves in a subject
such as UFO abductions. But sadly, such is not the case in the
'real world.' All of the physicians I have communicated with
regarding the scoop marks went out of their way to ask me to
keep their names and where they work private and anonymous. I
asked if they would be willing to go on the record and to a man
they all refused.

All I can do is forward the information (report) without
identifying the sources. I can tell you that I verified their
identities by calling each of them at their offices. One of them
works at a major medical university, the other two affiliated
with hospitals but are basically G.P.'s in private practice.

Sorry. I wish I could provide names, numbers, etc. No one more
than myself wishes that the circumstances were different. I have
to honor the requests of those who contact me in terms of
protecting their privacy and anonymity. By promising them
complete privacy, is just about the only way I can engage some
of these professionals in _any_ dialog on the subject at all.

Ahhh for the days when a man's 'word' meant something.  :)


Regards,

John Velez

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."










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                 Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:03:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 00:17:53 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Stacy


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clark
 >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:27:56 -0500

<snip>

 >The story of Goldwater's curious experience is hardly a mere
 >"rumor."

 >When The New Yorker profiled him in 1988 (April 25 issue),
 >Goldwater discussed it openly. He said he had asked his good
 >friend Air Force Gen. Curtis LeMay if he - Goldwater - could
 >have access to a "Blue Room" at Wright-Patterson, where
 >Goldwater understood UFO remains were kept. According to
 >Goldwater, LeMay gave him "holy hell." He informed Goldwater
 >that he - Goldwater - did not have the necessary clearances,
 >and he warned him never to bring up the subject again.

 >Some rumor. Some reaction to same.


Jerry,

Yes, many of us are aware of that incident, albeit, apparently,
not Dave Clarke.

Do you know if anyone other than Goldwater has ever referred to
a "Blue Room" at Wright-Pat? I'm not talking about Hangar 18
stories in general here, but the specific reference to a Blue
Room.

Mark Rodeghier also refers to Barton's introduction of
radioactivity "as a new wrinkle on the Roswell incident",
declaiming that "to my knowledge, no witness before this has
mentioned anything about radioactivity at any site."

What, then, do you make of this lapse among the dozens or
hundreds of Roswell witnesses debriefed prior to Stefula's
interview of Barton, several of them multiple times? How do you
explain, or accommodate, their failure to mention the use of
Geiger counters or the presence of radioactivity at the site, or
even verbal warnings of same?

Curious at the very least, no?

So does this weaken or strengthen your assessment of Barton as a
reliable or unreliable - for whatever reason(s) - Roswell
witness?

Did anyone other than Joe Stefula have the opportunity to
interview Barton. To which one is tempted to ask, if not, why
not?

Furthermore, given some of your past comments re Stefula's role
in the Cortile Case, why did you decide to publish the article
in the first place? Does this mean that you trust Stefula's
Roswell research, but not his Cortile work?

Finally, for the moment, Rodeghier also adds "To be honest, it
is difficult to know what to make of this information [sic?],
although Barton can hardly be in error since he recalls going to
the hospital to be checked, and there would have been no other
reason to go unless he had been injured somehow."

I'll leave it to Dick Hall to point out the philosophical
failings in the above line of "reasoning," although you can
convey my condolences to Mr. Rodeghier in the interval.

"Can hardly be in error?" To put it bluntly: of course Barton
could have been in error, unless he has evidence beyond his own
anecdotal testimony to the effect that he (and presumably many
others) actually _were_ tested for radiation exposure at that
time and place.

Sheesh! You can't establish the validity of one aspect of
anecdotal testimony by reference to another aspect of same. If
it's any consolation, Mark, I feel your embarrassment.

On the other hand, I still await the day when CUFOS, or someone
associated with CUFOS, will interview Kent Lorenzo (I hope I
have the name right) and accord his memories of what transpired
at Roswell at least as much weight as that accorded Chester
Barton's.

He was second in medical command at Roswell at that time, if
he's to be believed. You might begin by asking him whether he
remembers examining Capt. Barton, or others for that matter, for
exposure to radiation.

While you're at it, you might ask him about those recovered
alien bodies, too. Any questions about autopsies of same are, of
course, entirely optional.


Dennis Stacy









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               Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Cecchini

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:22:24 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 00:21:20 -0400
Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Cecchini


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:55:24 EDT
 >Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'!
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >Truth be known, Luis, I do not know if that which I perceive I've
 >experienced really happened. And I am the first to admit to this
 >fact. I say only that the UFO abduction phenomena is the only one
 >which best explains what I've experienced. Which is why I almost
 >always use the word, "perceived" experiences.

 >And I believe that skeptics are of value to the conundrum. I do
 >not believe that skeptibunkers are of any value, even to
 >themselves. And I define a skeptibunker as one who cannot admit
 >even to the possibilty of alien intervention. One who will cop to
 >any and all excuses, even unreasonable ones, to attempt to
 >explain it. Such is culpable ignorence.

<snip>

 >PS: I choose not to be believed, but rather for people to believe
 >     the possibility. Nothing more. Nothing less.

I just wanted to say that the above was well-said and worth a
rereading, especially by "extremist members" of opposing sides
of this Mystery.











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              Re: EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:49:28 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 00:24:01 -0400
Subject: Re: EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO


 >From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO Case?
 >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:25:08 -0600

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:05:50 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO Case?
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Kurt Jonach <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
 >>>To: <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
 >>>Subject: EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO Case?
 >>>Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 22:16:50 -0700

 >><snip>
 > ------------------------------------------------------------
 >>>RETIRED NAVAL OFFICER CONFIRMS FAMOUS UFO CASE?
 >>>UFO & ETI news

 >>>A retired Navy chief petty officer recently contacted The
 >>>Mississippi Press about the sighting that he can't forget...

 >>List, all,

 >>For those interested in such things, a chief petty officer is
 >>not a commissioned officer but an *NCO... in the Army, this
 >>would be the same as a sergeant...

 >>KRandle

 >>*[NCO = Non-Commisioned Officer--ebk]

 >Dear Kevin,

 >I don't understand your argument? Are you insinuating that
 >because of the person's _rank_ as an NCO (non-commissioned
 >officer) that he is in someway unreliable, or that his testimony
 >is questionable, or that his rank had anything at all to do with
 >his ability to report what he claims to have experienced, or
 >that his senses were somehow diminished by his rank? If that's
 >what you are arguing, your ability to logically reason are
 >certainly in question. What are you saying exactly? Maybe I
 >misunderstood!? I hope so.

Sue, List, all -

Of course you misunderstood. I was merely pointing out that the
headline was inaccurate and that it wasn't a Naval officer but
was, in fact, a non-commissioned officer. I suggested nothing
about the quality of the testimony, about the reliability of
NCOs, or anything else. I merely corrected an error that was in
the headline and provided information for those who might not be
aware of the distinction. That's all.

What I said, exactly,  was, "For those interested in such things,
a chief petty officer is not a commissioned officer but an NCO...
in the Army, this would be the same as a sergeant..."

The Knappster then defined NCO as non-commisioned officer.

What about this didn't you understand?

KRandle









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                          Secrecy News -- 10/25/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:34:24 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 00:26:41 -0400
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/25/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
October 25, 2001


**      THE ANTHRAX - BIN LADEN CONNECTION
**      REGAN INDICTMENT


THE ANTHRAX - BIN LADEN CONNECTION

While there is no evidence that Usama Bin Laden is responsible
for the current anthrax attacks in the United States, there are
indications that Bin Laden's network acquired anthrax and other
biological agents in recent years by simply purchasing them from
laboratories in Eastern European and Asia.

As reported October 24 in the New York Post, Bin Laden's agents
are said to have ordered anthrax and other bacteria through the
mail from the Czech Republic and elsewhere.

The NY Post article was based on a rather garbled account of the
1999 trial of members of Egyptian Islamic Jihad in Cairo that
appeared in the March 6, 1999 issue of the London Arabic
newspaper A-Sharq al-Awsat.

See "Bin-Ladin Men Reportedly Possess Biological Weapons," as
translated by the CIA's Foreign Broadcast Information Service,
here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/1999/03/990306-bin-ladin-bw.htm

A related story, "Islamic Jihad 'Confessions' Described," also
from A-Sharq al-Awsat and translated by FBIS, is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/1999/03/990306-cairo.htm

The reports (or translations) do not accurately distinguish between
bacteria and viruses, or between gases and liquids.

Officials of the Czech Republic have vigorously disputed claims
that anthrax, botulin or other lethal substances were obtained
by Bin Laden from their country.

The Czech intelligence agency, known in English as the Security
Information Service, maintains a fairly informative web site
here:

http://www.bis.cz/eng/a_index.html

Writing in the Village Voice, George Smith warns of anthrax
misinformation.  See "You Can't Iron Out the Anthrax":

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0143/smith.php

The National Security Archive has just published a new
collection of declassified documents on "The Nixon
Administration's Decision to End U.S. Biological Warfare
Programs."  See:

http://www.nsarchive.org/NSAEBB/NSAEBB58/


REGAN INDICTMENT

Brian P. Regan, the Air Force signals intelligence analyst who
was arrested last August, was indicted on charges of attempted
espionage on October 23.

The indictment describes how Regan used Intelink, "the
intelligence community's classified version of the Internet," to
collect intelligence unrelated to his job responsibilities.  And
it notes his efforts to identify potential contacts in foreign
embassies.

The text of the indictment, obtained from the US Attorney's
Office in Alexandria, Virginia, is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/ops/ci/regan_indict.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@lists.fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:
    subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:
    http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691









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                 Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:37:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 00:28:21 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clark


 >From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed
 >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:20:31 +0100

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:26:43 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed
 >>>Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:26:59 +0100


 >>3) If said document or evidence cannot be explained as above,
 >>then we attack the credibility of the witness...

 >Witnesses are rarely if ever mistaken and we should always
 >accept what they tell us at face value.

Talk about beating a strawman. Way to go, Dave! If complicated
reality is too, well, complicated, restate your critic's
position in such a way that no rational person could take him
seriously.

 >>4) Bottom line it absolutly cannot be, so no matter what or
who >>everything points to some "earthly" explaination.... (if)

 >When something seen in the sky is not readily identifiable the
 >most logical next step is to believe it was an ET spaceship.

Right. See above.

 >>5) We are unable to find said earthly explaination we cling to
 >>the hope that someday, sometime, someone, will come up with
 >>said earthly explaination.

 >We cling to the hope that there is life out there and that it is
 >visiting us.

I presume that by the above odd remark you are slagging SETI
scientists as well as ufologists. Interestingly, critics have
accused SETI astronomers of being engaged in what is essentially
a religious quest. Perhaps you agree. Is it your view that the
idea that intelligent ET life may exist is merely a "hope" that
humans "cling" to, for whatever reason?


Jerry Clark










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                Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:17:35 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 00:35:30 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Rimmer


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:26:43 EDT
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >The skeptical mindset has been over the years:

 >1) No amount of documents or evidence will ever convince... (so)

 >2) Most if not all documents and evidence are proof of
 >    misidentification, hoax, stars, balloons or errors by the
 >    witness... (but)

 >3) If said document or evidence cannot be explained as above,
 >    then we attack the credibility of the witness...

 >4) Bottom line it absolutly cannot be, so no matter what or who
 >    everything points to some "earthly" explaination.... (if)

 >5) We are unable to find said earthly explaination we cling to
 >    the hope that someday, sometime, someone, will come up with
 >    said earthly explaination.

How different from the believers' mindset, which says that

1) No UFO case must ever be explained. Any attempt to do so is
"debunking", "pelicanism" or "skeptibunking".

2) Everything any UFO witness or abductee reports must be
accepted without question as the literal truth. Anyone who
doubts of finds discrepancies in an account is a heartless,
unsympathetic monster.

3) There are no earthly explanations.

4) If documentary evidence which can decisively explain a case
is produced it is clearly "disinformation", probably spread by
the US government. This is because believing ufologists are so
clever that it takes the resources of an entire government to
fool them

5) If ultimately believers are forced by the weight of evidence
to accept a sceptical explanation, they cling to the hope that
eventually someday, sometime someone will come up with the
"smoking gun" which proves the ETH. 55 years and counting.


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk









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                     Maneuvers Mistaken For UFOs In Ohio

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:31:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 00:45:48 -0400
Subject: Maneuvers Mistaken For UFOs In Ohio


Note: Thanks to John Timmerman of CUFOS for passing along the
report and the witness was interviewed by telephone today and
the Park Rangers also contacted. For the record, the witness
only partially accepted the 'training maneuver' explanation and
was doubtful, a common reaction I have noticed -- KY

+++

Training maneuvers again mistaken for UFOs in SOUTHERN OHIO
Date: Thursday, October 25, 2001

Ohio A.N.G. jets are once again conducting mock combat
operations in Southern Ohio's airspace known as the Buckeye MOA
(Military Operations Area), resulting in UFO complaints by
concerned citizens.

 From various Air National Guard bases, including headquarters in
Ohio, fighter jets routinely conduct training maneuvers and
deploy flares. Flares can be used for battlefield illumination
or as a countermeasure to divert heat-seeking missiles from
targeting airplanes. These flares, people often report, are seen
singularly or grouped in a chain. Some even report the jets
'chasing' the bright colored lights.

Previous Southern Ohio events happened in October of 1996 and
March of 1997, resulting in police dispatchers and newspaper
offices being swamped with UFO reports. Sightings were reported
from Maysville, Kentucky to Wilmington, Ohio. One Ross County
resident videotaped a flare chain above Adams County, Ohio in
the vicinity of Peebles. The videotape was even featured on the
TV show "SIGHTINGS," seeming to baffle MUFON photoanalyst Jeff
Sainio on the program, which portrayed the episode as a possible
Alien Visitation.

During independent investigation of these complaints, an officer
with the Ohio Air National Guard was contacted and he confirmed
their participation in combat training maneuvers and flare
deployments over much of Southern Ohio. These maneuvers, he
explained, could be construed as 'UFOs' due to clear sky
conditions in the spring and fall.

Recently this month, a Batavia, Ohio woman vacationing at Rocky
Fork Lake near Hillsboro, Ohio observed this activity on October
17th, after 9:00 p.m. She reported seeing two low-flying jets in
tight formation heading northeast and traveling fast. Within
moments, she saw a green colored light followed by a string of
four bright white lights that, she said, "amazed" her. At least
two others at Rocky Fork Lake also observed the sky display.
Before consultation with UFO researchers on this issue, the
Batavia, Ohio resident had sought to report the situation to the
Rocky Fork Park Rangers and also to NASA headquarters.

Now more than ever, it is necessary for our pilots to be
properly trained. While many are aware that certain airspace
above Southern Ohio is set aside for training operations, others
are not. The public should be aware that certain events taking
place in our skies can be misunderstood and many reported UFO
sightings are often explainable.

For more information on this or to report UFO sightings, contact
KENNY YOUNG at: ufo@fuse.net









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                         Speaker: "Aliens Are Here"

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 01:51:05 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 01:51:05 -0400
Subject: Speaker: "Aliens Are Here"

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=2544919&BRD=1645&PAG=461&dept_id=10856
&rfi=6


Friday 26 October, 2001

Speaker: Aliens are here

By NANCY CUNNINGHAM, Middletown Press Staff


Stephen Bassett knew they were capable of learning the truth
about the government's attempt to keep alien life forms a
secret. Bassett has a message he believes his being ignored by
the general public - mainly the media. His message: "You're not
being told everything."

On Wednesday night at Wesleyan University, Bassett, a lobbyist
and political activist, related that message to about 40 people,
mostly students, during a two-hour lecture - "The Politics of
UFOs" - a discussion about the government's so far successful
attempts to cover-up what they have known about
extra-terrestrials since 1947 when the national security act was
established.

"We've got extra-terrestrials here," Bassett said. He said the
government has always known it could not keep extra-terrestrials
a secret, but they could manage it. The government has "managed"
the truth all this time based on three axioms, Bassett said.
One: "Don't ask, don't tell." Two: "Need to know." Three, and
his personal favorite, "You can't handle the truth."

However, Bassett said there have been three major political
efforts to expose the cover-up. Bassett said, the first effort
started in 1966 when President Gerald Ford held a scripted
congressional hearing at which three military speakers testified
to UFOs hovering over Strategic Air Command air force bases.
Bassett said that effort ended in 1968 when another scripted
symposium, at which Carl Segan spoke, was challenged.

Bassett said the second effort took place in 1976 when President
Jimmy Carter spearheaded a study to confirm extra-terrestrials
existed. But, Bassett said Carter's efforts were sandbagged when
various government agencies, like the CIA, refused to divulge
any information.

In 1993, Bassett said the third effort was by far the closest to
revealing the cover up. The Cold War had ended. President George
Bush was seeking a second term. The timing and the players were
ideal, Bassett said. It was agreed, that the Bush administration
was ready to reveal the cover-up during the first year of his
second term, Bassett said. But, he said it all seemed to fall
apart when President Bill Clinton was elected. However, all was
not lost. Bassett said there are documents to prove that Clinton
agreed to move forward with the effort to end the cover-up. Long
story, short - Bassett said Clinton was ready to disclose the
cover up in 1997, but that same year he was indicted. Effort
thwarted. There was a fourth effort in 2001, Bassett said, but
that hope was squashed on Sept. 11. Log on to
www.paradigmclock.com for more information.

�The Middletown Press 2001








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              Re: EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO

From: Kurt Jonac <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:41:21 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:48:23 -0400
Subject: Re: EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:05:50 EDT
 >Subject: Re: EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO Case?
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >What I said, exactly,  was, "For those interested in such things,
 >a chief petty officer is not a commissioned officer but an NCO...
 >in the Army, this would be the same as a sergeant..."

 >The Knappster then defined NCO as non-commisioned officer.

Kevin, you are right the headline was wrong.

I came across this story, and passed it on to this List with a
poor headline. (Actually it had a question-mark, meaning I wan't
sure if it was correct. Also, it wasn't in your book, 'A History
of UFO Crashes', because presumably there was no crash involved.
So, of course, I had no authorative input on the case, right?)

Broadly speaking, people who investigate these incidents look
for corroborative evidence. So, here's this fellow who comes
forward with additional input, and its written up by AP, so, I
thought maybe somebody on this list would like to read the
article.

Perhaps some ufologist will read this, investigate, and tell us,
"This fellow just wanted his name in the paper!" OK, fine.

Actually, I know very little about the Hickson/Parker case, but
I thought this was the right place to post this information.

But, the headline was wrong, and I should have known better.

-kj








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                   Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Westover

From: Jeff Westover <frequentflier66@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 23:51:10 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:54:29 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Westover


 >Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:07:39 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children

 >>Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:58:53 -0700 (PDT)
 >>From: Jeff Westover <frequentflier66@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: UFO/ET Book For Children
 >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>EBK and gentle listers,

 >>A year or so ago there was discussion on this List
 >>concerning materials, or lack thereof, to help educate
 >>children on the ET/UFO phenomenon.

 >>This past summer a book, which I illustrated, titled
 >>'Almanac of Alien Encounters' was published by Random
 >>House, Inc.

 >http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0-679-87288-4

 >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679872884/o/qid%3D985753235/sr%3D8-1/r
ef%3Daps%5Fsr%5Fb%5F1%5F1/002-2164013-5774409

 >>The book was written specifically for the 8-12 year old crowd
 >>and is a wonderful compendium of the historical presence of
 >>various aspects of the UFO/ET phenomena including alternate
 >>theories and how to contact a UFO investigator.

 >>This book would be a nice addition to any school
 >or public
 >>library.


 >This is so very sad for me to hear.

 >I _love_ kids. I have raised two of my own to
 >adulthood, and I
 >am currently a grandfather of three, with one more
 >'on the way.';)

 >To my way of thinking, introducing children of the age group
 >that this book is aimed at to UFO/ET phenomena including (of all
 >things) how to contact a UFO investigator, is completely wrong.
 >It seems to me that such a book could only serve to codify a set
 >of 'beliefs' in the impressionable minds of the young ones who
 >read it.

 >I would not either confirm or deny the existence of such things
 >for a ten or twelve year old, and I routinely advise parents who
 >contact me to do likewise. What I do suggest for them to do is;
 >to "be there" for the child. Without reinforcing _any_ belief
 >system,  and simply "listen" (act as an impartial sounding
 >board) if/when the kids bring up the subject of their own
 >volition. "Introduce" it... never.

 >As a parent I'd like to know 'which' cases are cited in order to
 >"introduce" the phenomenon to a youngster. Which "UFO
 >investigators" are these children and their parents being
 >pointed at. Carpenter? Boylan? Is the subject of alien abduction
 >being introduced as well?

 >If so, has any consideration been given to the fact that; a ten
 >or twelve year old who 'may be' having disturbing UFO/alien
 >experiences already, and who has not yet made any connection
 >between those experiences and UFOs/aliens (on their own,) are
 >being "introduced" to an "explanation" that they may wrongly (or
 >rightly) accept and cling to for life?

 >Cheeses, Mary, and Joseph, talk about "contamination"!

<snip>


Hello John and List.

Gee, I didn't see that classic 'Velezian' beamship heading my
way!  LOL!!!

Just check out the book in one of your local 'book barns' before
raising the spectres of Boylan and Carpenter and projecting
other scary traumas into this rather benign but informative kids
book.

I like to think of the 'Almanac Of Alien Encounters' as 'Jerome
Clark for kids' rather than something in the frightening 'Ceto's
New Friends' universe

http://www.omnimag.com/archives/open_book/d_and_j/

The Almanac provides historical UFO accounts from a
pro-UFO-reality perspective while also providing a 'Skeptics
Speak' response in such as way that it doesn't riducle the
skeptics and scepti-bunkers.

Cheeseandcrakers, this book is bubble gum... think of N'SYNC as
compared to EMINEM... baked, low-fat tortilla chips as compared
to paint chips... it's heavy on the history, image-laden and
provides a skeptical counterpoint... it's as safe as a Nerff!
;-)


Peace,

Jeff Westover










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                 Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clarke

From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 07:55:29 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:56:28 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clarke


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed
 >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:05:42 -0500

 >>From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:18:10 +0100

Hi Jerry,

 >>>Actually, the fact of the matter is that where Roswell and many
 >>>other contentious ufological issues are concerned, none of us
 >>>"knows," yourself and myself included. Condescension is a cheap
 >>>sentiment, and a cheaper tactic, and it gets us nowhere.

 >>If that is the case, why don't you practice what you preach, 'my
 >>friend'?

 >And this is supposed to mean what exactly? Am I supposed to feel
 >personal hostility toward you, as opposed to holding you to be a
 >colleague, even if (from my point of view) an occasionally
 >erring one, and a friendly acquaintance? My word. Could it be,
 >dare I say, that you're betraying your own paranoia?

I was going to reply to this, but John Rimmer beat me to it,
with:

 >Jerry, are you aware of just how condescending your constant use
 >of the phrase "my friend" is?

As for my comments in 'The Observer', you obviously aren't a
reader of the tabloid Daily Star. A couple of weeks ago that
newspaper quoted a "Dr David Clarke" to the effect that the
"missing" Rendlesham documents "constitute the best evidence
that aliens have landed in Britain."

I think that is what you would call a "straw man."


All the best,

Dave Clarke











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                    'UFO Mayor'? We'll Know In Two Weeks

From: John E.L. Tenney <jelt2000@msn.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 08:23:35 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:59:46 -0400
Subject: 'UFO Mayor'? We'll Know In Two Weeks


It's always interesting when a researcher runs for elected
office. Unfortunately nothing in this article refers to any of
my 15+ years of research and investigation. I'm sure that it
will all 'come out' soon enough. What newspaper wouldn't love to
run a story on a 'UFO Mayor'?

John E.L. Tenney
http://www.votetenney.com
Michigan Anomalous Information Network
http://mainorg.tripod.com


-----


Royal Oak Daily Tribune

Candidate comes of age for Royal Oak mayoral race

by C. Kavanaugh

Royal Oak, Michigan -

Since high school John Tenney has wanted to be mayor, but when
he went to pull petitions to run for office at age 18, he was
told he was too young. Now, more than a decade later, Tenney, a
29-year-old freelance graphic artist and gallery manager, is the
first mayoral candidate to have his signatures verified and earn
a spot on the Nov. 6 ballot.

By the petition deadline on Sept. 4, Michael Andrzejak, a former
city commissioner who gave Mayor Dennis Cowan a fight in 1999,
and Bill Urich, a finalist for the latest City Commission
appointment who has the backing of some elected officials, also
are expected to be in the race.

Resident George DeLorean also has pulled petitions.

But Tenney doesn't consider himself an underdog - at least for
now.

"Right now I'd say my chances are great. I'm running unopposed,"
Tenney said Wednesday. "I'm feeling optimistic."

If elected, Tenney said he will set aside his opinions to
represent the views of the community. He set his main goal as
encouraging homeowners, business owners and the young and old to
work together on local issues.

"I don't think City Hall has helped all these factions interact
very well and some lines have been drawn," Tenney said. "Some
business people think City Hall is just for residents and some
residents think City Hall is just for business. City Hall needs
to be an active force in bringing people together."

With a campaign slogan of "make your voice make a difference,"
Tenney said he is open to the idea of holding weekly commission
meetings to give people more opportunities to be heard. He also
said he will have the time to follow up on residents' concerns
personally because he doesn't have a wife or children.

Expanding the downtown retail base and creating more parking
spaces also are on his agenda. He said the city should explore
building a parking deck in front of City Hall to handle new
business development.

When he worked downtown last year, Tenney said he got a lot of
tickets because he parked at meters so he wouldn't have to carry
a nightly bank deposit bag too far.

"I carpeted the new court," he said of 44th District Court,
which was funded with parking ticket revenue. "The city has got
to put together a more extensive plan to address parking."

Tenney also wants to see a public swimming pool at one of Royal
Oak's 50 parks.

As he knocks on doors to introduce himself to voters, Tenney
said most residents ask about his stance on human rights
ordinances. He doesn't hesitate to say he supports local
legislation to ban housing, job and public service
discrimination based on sexual orientation.

"I tell them I voted for the human rights ordinance and that's
usually all they want to know," Tenney said. "When I was
gathering signatures, the majority of people then said, 'OK,
give me your clipboard and I'll sign it.'"

Both Tenney and his campaign manager, Elizabeth Carey-Smith, are
Web savvy and designed an Internet site that brings a new
electronic element to the election. It features fliers for
supporters to download and distribute in addition to the
candidate's personal information and stances on issues.

Throughout the Web site, which is www.votetenney.com, Tenney
emphasizes that he is a "person, not a politician." He also
thinks it's an attribute that he isn't a lawyer.

"We don't need more lawyers at City Hall," Tenney said,
referring to Urich, a lawyer who sees the commission as having a
"legal deficit" with the resignation of Thomas Kuhn and the
pending departure of Cowan, also a lawyer.

"Having a sense of community is much more important," Tenney
said. "There's even a country I know of where the president
isn't an attorney."

Tenney is a lifelong resident who went to both Dondero and
Kimball high schools before earning a GED. He owned Neo-Tokyo, a
Japanese toy store and coffeehouse, in the mid-1990s. He now is
manager at Preston Burke Gallery in Royal Oak and has a
home-based design business.

A few years ago Tenney said he was active with The Youth
Liberation Front and People for the Ethical Treatment of
Animals, but he never joined any local service groups or applied
to civic boards. He hopes voters see that as an advantage.

"I never got involved with clubs or committees because I don't
want to disconnect myself from anyone by being part of a
particular group," Tenney said. "I think the best way to network
is just by talking to everyone."

Tenney is planning his first fund-raiser for Sept. 7, but he
doesn't plan to accumulate the war chest of previous mayoral
candidates. He thinks a campaign budget of about $2,500 to cover
lawn signs, bumper stickers and some fliers will be adequate.

"I can't see spending $30,000 for a $2,000 job," said Tenney,
referring to Cowan's last campaign fund.









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   Oct > Oct 26

                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 330

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 12:47:57 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:29:38 -0400
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 330


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 330 -  18 OCTOBER 2001

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- It's Raining "Angel Hair'"
- CISU Conference and Meeting
- Alberto Lazzaro Award
- UFO Magazine and UFO Forum new issues
- Conference in Turin


IT'S RAINING "ANGEL HAIR'"

October marks a return to the most opportune season of the year
for such a notable phenomenon as "angel hair," the whitish
filaments falling from the sky and often associated to UFO
phenomena.

On the afternoon of Thursday, 11 October, some children playing
in a garden in Subbiano (Arezzo) saw some strange whitish
filaments descending from the sky, which became entangled in a
tree and appeared to cling to the touch. A sample, lifted by the
Carabinieri, was delivered to technicians at the Regional Agency
for the Protection of the Environment. [La Nazione, Arezzo
edition, 13 October; Ufoitalia, 15 October; collaboration by
Massimiliano Grandi.]

The following afternoon, on Friday, 12 October, at least two
witnesses, from two different areas of Rome (and at two separate
times), observed a whitish and filament-like substance falling
out of the sky in elongated wads of various sizes, while one or
more luminous pinpoints of light appeared high in the sky. Both
witnesses gathered samples of the substance, delivering them for
analysis to the Centro Ufologico Nazionale. According to a
statement by biologist and ufologist Giorgio Pattera,
observations conducted by stereomicroscope appeared to show
evidence of polyrefracting filaments of a sort of "plastic
material" which looked like concurrently subjected to high
temperature and traction. [www.cunlazio.net, 12 and 13 October;
Ufoitalia, 14 October; La Rete, 15, 16 and 17 October.]


CISU CONFERENCE AND MEETING

Last Saturday at San Giovanni in Persiceto Planetary of the
Astronomic Observatory, there was held the previously-announced
16th National UFO Conference, organized as in every year by the
Italian Center for UFO Studies.

Appearing before an extremely attentive and prepared audience,
the announced speakers discussed various aspects of the theme,
"Luminous Phenomena in the Atmosphere and Instrumental Ufology":
those in charge of various areas of study at the CISU, and some
scientists who are actively involved on the theme (particularly
Massimo Teodorani about the expedition in Norway at Hessdalen,
and Albino Carbognani on the physics behind the ball lightning);
plus, some brief reports relative to instrument-based research
activities underway or being planned (by Stefano Innocenti,
Gianfranco Lollino and Goffredo Pierpaoli).

An on-line Photo Gallery of the National UFO Conference is
available at the URL:

http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/16confo1.htm

The following day, at the same location, the CISU members'
annual general meeting was convened, who approved the balance
sheets and nominated the new council of directors for the
2001-2003 period, in the persons of Edoardo Russo, President;
and Gian Paolo Grassino, Giuseppe Stilo, Paolo Toselli and
Maurizio Verga, council members.


ALBERTO LAZZARO AWARD

On the occasion of the meeting of the Italian Center for UFO
Studies, it was announced that the "Alberto Lazzaro 2000 Award"
was granted to Daniele Parisi for his graduation thesis in
Cognitive Sociology, entitled "The UFO Phenomenon as a Social
Construction from Flying Saucers to Extraterrestrial Cult",
presented at the University of Turin in December of last year.
The contents of the thesis may be found on line at the URL:

http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/tesi2000.htm

The Lazzaro Award, instituted in 1998 in memory of a founding
CISU member who disappeared under tragic circumstances, is given
each year to reward the best investigative report about a
sighting and the best article or text, written in the preceding
year.

Those eligible for participation are all CISU members in the
category of "collaborators", while full and honorary members are
(by right) excluded.


UFO MAGAZINE AND UFO FORUM NEW ISSUES

Also at the National UFO Conference, the new issues of the two
main periodical publications from the Italian Center for UFO
Studies were presented.

In fact, No. 23 has finally appeared of "UFO  - Rivista di
informazione ufologica", containing among its articles: a
first-person account of the EMBLA 2000 expedition by
astrophysicist Massimo Teodorani; a long article by Massimiliano
Granid on the cataloguing and analyses of cases involving "angel
hair"; the preview of the new book concerning the case of the
Australian pilot who disappeared after having reported a UFO;
investigations into various sightings in the northwestern
regions; the true story of the so-called "COMETA Report" and of
a secret intelligence report on UFOs in France; an overview by
Giuseppe Stilo about the great sightings wave of 1950 in Italy;
and an interesting reflection by Pierre Lagrange regarding the
possibility of a non-reductionist UFO sociology. The cover page
and the contents of that issue may be found on line at the URL:

http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/riu23.htm

Also issued was No. 18 of the technical review, "UFO Forum",
whose cover story is a full portrait of Renato Vesco and his
work; moreover, the presentation of the new work by Marcello
Pupilli concerning the cataloguing of UFO-related comic strips,
an international round table about how to study abduction cases,
a case regarding an claimed UFO crash in Spain, various Italian
investigations and some more interventions in the ongoing
ethical and epistemological debate. The cover page and the
contents of that issue may be found on line at the URL:

http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/forum18.htm

The two publications were sent out to all CISU subscribers and
members.


CONFERENCE IN TURIN

Taking place on Tuesday, 23 October, in Turin, will be a
conference presentation regarding the book by Richard Haines
dedicated to the Valentich case  "Delta Sierra Juliet
rispondi..." ("Roger, Delta Sierra Juliet...")  hot off the
presses from UPIAR publications.

The conference, open to the public, free of charge, illustrated
with slides and followed by a debate, will be held by the Turin
branch of the Italian Center for UFO Studies, beginning at 9 pm
at Parvadomus Cultural Association in Via Tripoli 181.

At the conference, copies of the volume and of other recent CISU
publications will be available.

- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by  Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website at:

http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di informazione
ufologica", published by the Italian Center for UFO Studies,
registered at Tribunale di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo. Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso
Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2001  by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing
(just send a blank message to:
cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org









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                 Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:30:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:11:44 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clark


 >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:03:12 -0500
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clark
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:27:56 -0500


Dennis,

 >>When The New Yorker profiled him in 1988 (April 25 issue),
 >>Goldwater discussed it openly. He said he had asked his good
 >>friend Air Force Gen. Curtis LeMay if he - Goldwater - could
 >>have access to a "Blue Room" at Wright-Patterson, where
 >>Goldwater understood UFO remains were kept. According to
 >>Goldwater, LeMay gave him "holy hell." He informed Goldwater
 >>that he - Goldwater - did not have the necessary clearances,
 >>and he warned him never to bring up the subject again.

 >Yes, many of us are aware of that incident, albeit, apparently,
 >not Dave Clarke.

 >Do you know if anyone other than Goldwater has ever referred to
 >a "Blue Room" at Wright-Pat? I'm not talking about Hangar 18
 >stories in general here, but the specific reference to a Blue
 >Room.

No, I am not aware of other references, and I wonder where
Goldwater picked it up. Persons who wrote him and asked him to
discuss the incident further found him reluctant to add any
details.

 >Mark Rodeghier also refers to Barton's introduction of
 >radioactivity "as a new wrinkle on the Roswell incident",
 >declaiming that "to my knowledge, no witness before this has
 >mentioned anything about radioactivity at any site."

Rodeghier also discusses possible reasons why this may be so. I
refer interested persons to the article in the Summer 2001 issue
of International UFO Reporter (available, once again, from
CUFOS, 2457 West Peterson Avenue, Chicago, Ilinois 60659).

 >Did anyone other than Joe Stefula have the opportunity to
 >interview Barton. To which one is tempted to ask, if not, why
 >not?

As the article relates, Barton refused to consent to interviews
with others who tried to talk with him after Stefula.


Jerry Clark









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                 Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:32:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:13:22 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clark


 >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:00:06 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed


 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:08:41 -0500

John,

 >>>>At least we can agree on that, as long as you are including
 >>>>yourself in this condescending equation.

 >>To the contrary, my friend. I'm saying we _all_ have prejudices.
 >>Even you.

 >Jerry, are you aware of just how condescending your constant use
 >of the phrase "my friend" is?

Are you aware of how paranoid you sound?

Or perhaps you'd prefer that I refer to friendly rivals as
"stupid, mindless, bigoted, spittle-spewing jerks" when I
address them? Would that make you happy?


Jerry Clark










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                 Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:37:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:14:35 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clark


 >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:17:35 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:26:43 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com


John,

 >How different from the believers' mindset, which says that

 >1) No UFO case must ever be explained.

This is fascinating. Can you cite one UFO proponent -- just one --
who holds the view you have just attributed to him or her?

 >2) Everything any UFO witness or abductee reports must be
 >accepted without question as the literal truth. Anyone who
 >doubts of finds discrepancies in an account is a heartless,
 >unsympathetic monster.

Likewise.

 >3) There are no earthly explanations.

Likewise.

 >4) If documentary evidence which can decisively explain a case
 >is produced it is clearly "disinformation", probably spread by
 >the US government. This is because believing ufologists are so
 >clever that it takes the resources of an entire government to
 >fool them

Likewise.

 >5) If ultimately believers are forced by the weight of evidence
 >to accept a sceptical explanation, they cling to the hope that
 >eventually someday, sometime someone will come up with the
 >"smoking gun" which proves the ETH. 55 years and counting.

Does this read as incoherently to the rest of you as it does to
me? It doesn't describe the mindset of anybody I know, and I'll
wager that I've been in ufology even longer than John ("Never
Say Brit") Rimmer.


Jerry Clark








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                 Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:41:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:41:27 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clark


 >From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed
 >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 07:55:29 +0100

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 17:05:42 -0500

 >>>From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed
 >>>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:18:10 +0100


Dave,

 >As for my comments in 'The Observer', you obviously aren't a
 >reader of the tabloid Daily Star. A couple of weeks ago that
 >newspaper quoted a "Dr David Clarke" to the effect that the
 >"missing" Rendlesham documents "constitute the best evidence
 >that aliens have landed in Britain."

 >I think that is what you would call a "straw man."

No, I would call that an evasion of the issues I raised. I do
sympathize, though, with you and all others, including the
undersigned, who have been misquoted in press accounts and had
our views turned exactly on their heads. A sadly common
experience.


Jerry Clark










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   Oct > Oct 26

                               Weekend Aurora

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:44:26 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:43:39 -0400
Subject: Weekend Aurora


Hi everyone,

Those October 20/21 'Strange Days...Indeed' UFO radio talk
show listeners who did step out to see if they could spot
short streaks of light in the sky associated with the annual
Orionid meteor shower (not a particularly strong shower but
one could expect to see a meteor once every 3 minutes or so)
and a rare light show produced from a Class X solar flare -
a powerful explosion on the Sun - were not disappointed.

Pictures of this aurora as seen by observers living in the
mid-latitudes, including many in Canada and the U.S. can be
found at the web site below. Those who missed the aurora
have another chance to see nature's rare light show this
weekend now that another powerful Class X flare has just
erupted on the Sun, even though the much fuller Moon will
make the sky brighter and make the aurora a less spectacular
sight.


Nick Balaskas

----------

Space Weather News for Oct. 26, 2001
http://www.spaceweather.com

A powerful solar explosion on Thursday, Oct 25th, sent a
coronal mass ejection (CME) billowing toward Earth. The
expanding cloud could trigger auroras when it reaches our
planet on Oct 27th or 28th. If so, the coming weekend would
be the second in a row that high-latitude sky watchers have
enjoyed Northern Lights. Visit spaceweather.com for more
information about the solar blast and the approaching CME.








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              Re: EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 11:08:26 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:45:10 -0400
Subject: Re: EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO


 >From: Kurt Jonac <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
 >To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO Case? - Randle
 >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:41:21 -0700

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:05:50 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: EW: 10-24-01 Ret. Naval Officer Confirms UFO Case?
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<major snip>

Kurt, List, all -

 >But, the headline was wrong, and I should have known better.

I was not attempting to attach blame here. I merely wanted to
correct a mistake that I knew was made by a headline writer who
did not know the difference (and from what I've seen, probably
didn't care). That is all. Make a distinction between what was
said in the text of the story and how it was headlined. That's
it. Nothing more.


KRandle









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                  Re: Speaker: "Aliens Are Here" - Bassett

From: Stephen Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 11:27:33 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:50:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Speaker: "Aliens Are Here" - Bassett


Subj: UFO UpDate: Speaker: "Aliens Are Here"
Date: 10/25/01 10:52:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >Source: The Middletown Press, Connecticut

 >http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=2544919&BRD=1645&PAG=461&dept_id=108
56&rfi=6

 >Friday 26 October, 2001

 >Speaker: Aliens are here

 >By NANCY CUNNINGHAM, Middletown Press Staff

 >Stephen Bassett knew they were capable of learning the truth
 >about the government's attempt to keep alien life forms a
 >secret. Bassett has a message he believes his being ignored by
 >the general public - mainly the media. His message: "You're not
 >being told everything."

 >On Wednesday night at Wesleyan University, Bassett, a lobbyist
 >and political activist, related that message to about 40 people,
 >mostly students, during a two-hour lecture - "The Politics of
 >UFOs" - a discussion about the government's so far successful
 >attempts to cover-up what they have known about
 >extra-terrestrials since 1947 when the national security act was
 >established.

[There were 60 in attendance. Nancy was sitting in the front row
and did not see others who came in after the presentation
began.]

 >"We've got extra-terrestrials here," Bassett said. He said the
 >government has always known it could not keep extra-terrestrials
 >a secret, but they could manage it. The government has "managed"
 >the truth all this time based on three axioms, Bassett said.
 >One: "Don't ask, don't tell." Two: "Need to know." Three, and
 >his personal favorite, "You can't handle the truth."

 >However, Bassett said there have been three major political
 >efforts to expose the cover-up. Bassett said, the first effort
 >started in 1966 when President Gerald Ford held a scripted
 >congressional hearing at which three military speakers testified
 >to UFOs hovering over Strategic Air Command air force bases.
 >Bassett said that effort ended in 1968 when another scripted
 >symposium, at which Carl Sagan spoke, was challenged.

[Note: Nancy Cunningham attempted to reach me later in the
evening to ask some clarifying questions. However, the program
lasted until 11 pm (4 hours), and I did not get her message. She
took in a huge amount of information in a short period of time,
was against a deadline, and not surprisingly, some corrections
are needed to her piece.]

[Correction: I stated it was my opinion the incidents at the SAC
bases during the period 1966-1968, along with a significant
increase in sightings, help create the pressure which required
hearings at that time. However, the SAC base incidents were not
brought up at the hearings. Ford did not hold the hearing in
1966, but rather help to clear the way. Mendel Rivers was the
chairman of the Armed Services Committee.]

 >Bassett said the second effort took place in 1976 when President
 >Jimmy Carter spearheaded a study to confirm extra-terrestrials
 >existed. But, Bassett said Carter's efforts were sandbagged when
 >various government agencies, like the CIA, refused to divulge
 >any information.

 >In 1993, Bassett said the third effort was by far the closest to
 >revealing the cover up. The Cold War had ended. President George
 >Bush was seeking a second term. The timing and the players were
 >ideal, Bassett said. It was agreed, that the Bush administration
 >was ready to reveal the cover-up during the first year of his
 >second term, Bassett said.

[Correction: I stated it was my informed opinion the wrappings
on the cover-up package were loosened when the cold war ended in
1989 and that Bush 41 would have been viewed by the
military/intel as the perfect disclosure president from their
perspective.]

 >But, he said it all seemed to fall apart when President Bill
 >Clinton was elected. However, all was not lost. Bassett said
 >there are documents to prove that Clinton agreed to move forward
 >with the effort to end the cover-up. Long story, short - Bassett
 >said Clinton was ready to disclose the cover up in 1997, but
 >that same year he was indicted. Effort thwarted. There was a
 >fourth effort in 2001, Bassett said, but that hope was squashed
 >on Sept. 11. Log on to www.paradigmclock.com for more
 >information.

 >�The Middletown Press 2001

[Correction: I stated there were documents confirming the
Laurance Rockefeller initiative directed at the Clinton
administration from 1993 to 1995. I stated that a new window of
opportunity opened when Clinton was reelected in 1996 and much
was happening in 1997, but efforts were shut down with the
Lewinsky indictment in January of 1998.]

The presentation at Wesleyan was very well received. There were
two hours of intense Q and A from some very smart students
attending the 12th ranked liberal arts college in the nation
(USNWR).


SB









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   Oct > Oct 26

                    Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 12:07:54 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:52:37 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Velez


 >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 23:51:10 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Jeff Westover <frequentflier66@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:07:39 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children

 >>>Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:58:53 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>From: Jeff Westover <frequentflier66@yahoo.com>
 >>>Subject: UFO/ET Book For Children
 >>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>EBK and gentle listers,

 >>>A year or so ago there was discussion on this List
 >>>concerning materials, or lack thereof, to help educate
 >>>children on the ET/UFO phenomenon.

 >>>This past summer a book, which I illustrated, titled
 >>>'Almanac of Alien Encounters' was published by Random
 >>>House, Inc.

 >>http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0-679-87288-4

 >>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679872884/o/qid%3D985753235/sr %3D8-1
/ref%3Daps%5Fsr%5Fb%5F1%5F1/002-2164013-5774409

 >>>The book was written specifically for the 8-12 year old crowd
 >>>and is a wonderful compendium of the historical presence of
 >>>various aspects of the UFO/ET phenomena including alternate
 >>>theories and how to contact a UFO investigator.

 >>>This book would be a nice addition to any school
 >>>or public library.

 >>This is so very sad for me to hear.

 >>I _love_ kids. I have raised two of my own to
 >>adulthood, and I
 >>am currently a grandfather of three, with one more
 >>'on the way.';)

 >>To my way of thinking, introducing children of the age group
 >>that this book is aimed at to UFO/ET phenomena including (of all
 >>things) how to contact a UFO investigator, is completely wrong.
 >>It seems to me that such a book could only serve to codify a set
 >>of 'beliefs' in the impressionable minds of the young ones who
 >>read it.

 >>I would not either confirm or deny the existence of such things
 >>for a ten or twelve year old, and I routinely advise parents who
 >>contact me to do likewise. What I do suggest for them to do is;
 >>to "be there" for the child. Without reinforcing _any_ belief
 >>system,  and simply "listen" (act as an impartial sounding
 >>board) if/when the kids bring up the subject of their own
 >>volition. "Introduce" it... never.

 >>As a parent I'd like to know 'which' cases are cited in order to
 >>"introduce" the phenomenon to a youngster. Which "UFO
 >>investigators" are these children and their parents being
 >>pointed at. Carpenter? Boylan? Is the subject of alien abduction
 >>being introduced as well?

 >>If so, has any consideration been given to the fact that; a ten
 >>or twelve year old who 'may be' having disturbing UFO/alien
 >>experiences already, and who has not yet made any connection
 >>between those experiences and UFOs/aliens (on their own,) are
 >>being "introduced" to an "explanation" that they may wrongly (or
 >>rightly) accept and cling to for life?

 >>Cheeses, Mary, and Joseph, talk about "contamination"!

Hiya Jeff, hi All,

Jeff writes:

 >Gee, I didn't see that classic 'Velezian' beamship heading my
 >way!

LOL!!!

Yeah, no 'scout craft' I. This sucker is a heavy, and loaded for
bear 'Mothership" fer sure. ;)

 >Just check out the book in one of your local 'book barns' before
 >raising the spectres of Boylan and Carpenter and projecting
 >other scary traumas into this rather benign but informative kids
 >book.

Why I phrased it in the form of a question about the book Jeff.
I will check it out.

 >I like to think of the 'Almanac Of Alien Encounters' as 'Jerome
 >Clark for kids' rather than something in the frightening 'Ceto's
 >New Friends' universe

That is precisely where my "concern" stemmed from Jeff. That
awful thing is something that should come with a parental
warning on the cover.  :)

 >Cheeseandcrakers, this book is bubble gum... think of N'SYNC as
 >compared to EMINEM... baked, low-fat tortilla chips as compared
 >to paint chips... it's heavy on the history, image-laden and
 >provides a skeptical counterpoint... it's as safe as a Nerff!
 >;-)

Cool. I hope so. Screwing up kid's heads is like shooting fish
in a barrel. There are so many adults that are already engaging
the activity that all we need is "one more."


Warm regards,

John Velez, Mothership

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."






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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 26

                  Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Strickland

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 10:49:07 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:55:02 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children - Strickland


 >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 23:51:10 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Jeff Westover <frequentflier66@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:07:39 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children

 >>>Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:58:53 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>From: Jeff Westover <frequentflier66@yahoo.com>
 >>>Subject: UFO/ET Book For Children
 >>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>EBK and gentle listers,

 >>>A year or so ago there was discussion on this List
 >>>concerning materials, or lack thereof, to help educate
 >>>children on the ET/UFO phenomenon.

 >>>This past summer a book, which I illustrated, titled
 >>>'Almanac of Alien Encounters' was published by Random
 >>>House, Inc.

 >http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0-679-87288-4

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679872884/o/qid%3D985753235/sr%3D8-1/ref
%3Daps%5Fsr%5Fb%5F1%5F1/002-2164013-5774409

 >>>The book was written specifically for the 8-12 year old crowd
 >>>and is a wonderful compendium of the historical presence of
 >>>various aspects of the UFO/ET phenomena including alternate
 >>>theories and how to contact a UFO investigator.

 >>>This book would be a nice addition to any school
 >>or public
 >>>library.

 >>This is so very sad for me to hear.

 >>I _love_ kids. I have raised two of my own to
 >>adulthood, and I
 >>am currently a grandfather of three, with one more
 >>'on the way.';)

 >>To my way of thinking, introducing children of the age group
 >>that this book is aimed at to UFO/ET phenomena including (of all
 >>things) how to contact a UFO investigator, is completely wrong.
 >>It seems to me that such a book could only serve to codify a set
 >>of 'beliefs' in the impressionable minds of the young ones who
 >>read it.

 >>I would not either confirm or deny the existence of such things
 >>for a ten or twelve year old, and I routinely advise parents who
 >>contact me to do likewise. What I do suggest for them to do is;
 >>to "be there" for the child. Without reinforcing _any_ belief
 >>system, and simply "listen" (act as an impartial sounding
 >>board) if/when the kids bring up the subject of their own
 >>volition. "Introduce" it... never.

 >>As a parent I'd like to know 'which' cases are cited in order to
 >>"introduce" the phenomenon to a youngster. Which "UFO
 >>investigators" are these children and their parents being
 >>pointed at. Carpenter? Boylan? Is the subject of alien abduction
 >>being introduced as well?

 >>If so, has any consideration been given to the fact that; a ten
 >>or twelve year old who 'may be' having disturbing UFO/alien
 >>experiences already, and who has not yet made any connection
 >>between those experiences and UFOs/aliens (on their own,) are
 >>being "introduced" to an "explanation" that they may wrongly (or
 >>rightly) accept and cling to for life?

 >>Cheeses, Mary, and Joseph, talk about "contamination"!

 ><snip>

 >Hello John and List.

 >Gee, I didn't see that classic 'Velezian' beamship heading my
 >way! LOL!!!

 >Just check out the book in one of your local 'book barns' before
 >raising the spectres of Boylan and Carpenter and projecting
 >other scary traumas into this rather benign but informative kids
 >book.

 >I like to think of the 'Almanac Of Alien Encounters' as 'Jerome
 >Clark for kids' rather than something in the frightening 'Ceto's
 >New Friends' universe

 >http://www.omnimag.com/archives/open_book/d_and_j/

 >The Almanac provides historical UFO accounts from a
 >pro-UFO-reality perspective while also providing a 'Skeptics
 >Speak' response in such as way that it doesn't riducle the
 >skeptics and scepti-bunkers.

 >Cheeseandcrakers, this book is bubble gum... think of N'SYNC as
 >compared to EMINEM... baked, low-fat tortilla chips as compared
 >to paint chips... it's heavy on the history, image-laden and
 >provides a skeptical counterpoint... it's as safe as a Nerff!
 >;-)

Dear Jeff, John, Listers,

This is a very touchy subject. I am very ambivalent about the
topic, as an abductee, mother and grandmother. I do think there
is a "right way" and a "wrong way" to approach this topic. And,
I do feel it is important that young adults are _first_
thoroughly endoctrinated in the scientific method, which serves
as groundwork for exploring other physical theories of the
universe. When Algebra and Geometry are understood, when
perceptions of physical energies, distances and time/space
theories can be understood on an abstract level, _then_ the
child may be able to comprehend the enormity of such a bizarre
concept of UFOs/ETs and abduction. Until then, Jeff, it's a
_big_ stretch for a child who is experiencing such bizarre
things to have _any_ confidence in himself/herself with relation
to what he/she may be experiencing.

Thankfully, my father recognized the need for this groundwork.
We were lectured a lot at the dinner table on the scientific
method, etc. By the time I was in the 4th grade, I knew that
light traveled at 186,000 mps, and to travel at such a speed
would kill a human without some form of protective energy to
counter or neutralize the effects of gravity. I also understood
the concept of Einstein's theory of relativity based on visual
drawings my father made of 2 trains, 2 people and 1 ground
observer. But, Dad emphasized that it was still just a theory,
that no one had actually traveled at the speed of light. It was
his hope that we would someday travel to the stars, but since
the sound barrier had just been broken, it would probably be
some time before the light barriar could be broken. So, I
naturally assumed that what was "visiting" me wasn't human or I
was dreaming. I chose to believe I was dreaming. Dad didn't have
to tell me, "You're dreaming," or "you're lying," or "you're
crazy." He let my confidence in myself be built on solid
groundwork, to make my own decisions as my emotional maturity
would allow me to fathom the possibility that it was all real.
And, until the physical pain of being burned by a laser (before
lasers were invented), the reality of the experiences were
simply "nightmares" to be tolerated. I told Dad about them, but
it was a long time before I could emotionally get my head around
it.

By the time the "burn incident" occurred (age 13), I had no
problem trusting my senses, and was confident in the deductions
I was making, however bizarre and difficult they appeared on the
surface. I was able to differentiate between ridiculous
explanations, like "swamp gas" and other more valid
possibilities for what I was experiencing. When the "swamp gas
explanation" came out, Dad read it at the dinner table, and I
rolled on the floor laughing, tears streaming down my face. I
had visions of my beautiful, newly redecorated bedroom turning
into a morass of green hanging moss and mud when the "visitors"
showed. The reptoid would have felt right at home.

Unless the child is endoctrinated early-on with such solid
groundwork, I personally feel it may be a big mistake to discuss
the "reality" of UFOs, ETs, abduction, etc. Children have a
great tendancy to accept what is written in a book as "gospel
truth," reality. They have very little ability to critically
analyze what may be real from what is a "stretch" or "hoax."
That's why so many textbooks are so carefully reviewed before a
school district decides to use them in a classroom environment.
By suggesting where the child might report a sighting or an
experience further validates the reality of the experience in
the child's mind. Based on our current lack of scientific
knowledge about this phenomena, I feel that it is inappropriate
to encourage a child to report to anyone other than family
members. The parents can then report what the child says, if the
parents feel it is appropriate.

How do you think a phone person at MUFON would handle a call
from an 8 or 9 year old saying they were just abducted by ETs
for 2-1/2 hours and was physically examined by them, and the
child asks what can they do to help, and the person answers,
"Nothing. We have no proven methods to combat the abduction, or
stop the ETs." The child will probably never call again, may
lose confidence and respect in teachers, family and friends,
become cynical and depressed, feeling "what's the use? No one
can help me?" That's _not_ where I want my children and
grandchildren to be.

Unfortunately, Jeff, many children are not so well-grounded as I
was. The confidence I built up was based on knowledge of others
about how our world works, tested and proven theories using the
scientific method. For any child who is not so well-grounded,
the continued doubt may become overwhelming, contributing to any
number of mental illnesses throughout his/her life. And, _if_
there is written _confirmation_ of the reality of the
experiences in book format without proven, workable ways to
handle the situations as they arise, the child is left to
his/her own devices to counteract the terror of "real"
nightmares and "real" monsters.

My sister is 3 years older than I am, and is quite intelligent,
albeit naive and trusting, especially in the written word venue.
When we were in Jackson Hole, WY last year, she saw a hunting
magazine with a picture of a hunter holding up a rabbit by its
horns. Above the stack of magazines were several "jackalopes"
mounted on wood backing, which matched the picture on the front
of the magazine. She had never seen a "jackalope," had no
reference for knowing about them, and was absolutely amazed. She
observed the horns carefully, picked up the magazine and read
the article, which was _not_ written with tongue-in-cheek. She
fully believed she had been ignorant of this species of rabbit.
I gently but firmly told her it was all a spoof, that it was a
tourist attraction designed to "reel in" the naive tourist, such
as herself. She was really discombobulated over the whole thing.

Can you imagine what a 9 or 10 year old might think about UFOs
and ETs with similar trust in the written word? It does nothing
to garner critical thinking in the child should he/she go to a
parent after reading the above-mentioned book and the parent
says, "Oh Honey, that's just a spoof, like the jackalope."
Groan.

I ordered the book yesterday. It should be here in a week or so.
I intend to review it carefully as an abductee of 50+ years,
ever mindful of other children who believe themselves to be
abductees, whose mindset may be so immature that they believe
"if it's in the book, it must be true." We shall see.


Sincerely,

Sue Strickland
ex-abductee








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 26

                              Beware New Scam!

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:35:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:57:32 -0400
Subject: Beware New Scam!


I received the following in my email. Note the similarity to
previous scam from Nigeria.


Sender: jeffnyerere@yahoo.com
Received: from web20803.mail.yahoo.com (web20803.mail.yahoo.com
[216.136.226.192])
by siaag1af.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.12) with SMTP id
IAA23428 for <brumac@compuserve.com>; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 08:10:56 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <20011026121050.60327.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com>
Received: from [196.2.45.139] by web20803.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 26
Oct 2001 05:10:50 PDT
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 05:10:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: jeff nyerere <jeffnyerere@yahoo.com>
Subject: Confidential (Bruce MacCabee )
To: brumac@compuserve.com


PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL


MR JEFF NYERERE (JNR)


JOHANNESBURG SOUTH AFRICA


TEL.+27-83-955-9820


THE DIRECTOR,

DEAR SIR,

I DO FORESEE THE SURPRISE THIS LETTER WILL BRING TO
YOU AS IT COMES FROM A STRANGER. BUT BE REST ASSURED
AS IT COMES WITH THE BEST OF INTENTIONS, HOWEVER YOUR
ADDRESS WAS COURTESY OF A BUSINESS JOURNAL AT THE
WORLD TRADE CENTRE IN JOHANNESBURG BUT AFTER A DUE
CINSIDERATION FROM YOUR PROFILE, I BECAME AWARE AND
ASSURED OF YOUR CREDIBILITY OF HANDLING THE TRUST AND
MY FUTURE. THUS AFTER MY HUMBLE DECISION TO SOLICIT
YOUR UNDERSTANDING AND CO-OPERATION IN THIS
TRANSACTION, AS IT WILL BE BENEFICIAL TO ALL OF
USINVOLVED.

MY NAME IS MR JEFF NYERERE JNR  FROM TANZANIA, I AM THE
SON OF THE LATE PRESIDENT OF TANZANIA JULIUS NYERERE WHO
DIED TWO YEARS AGO. MY FATHER USED HIS POSITION THEN
TO MAKE FOR HIMSELF AND US SOME FUTURE. MY FATHER DIED
AFTER A PROTRACTED ILLNESS. I WAS STUDYING OVERSEAS
WHEN MY FATHER DIED AND I WAS FORCED TO RETURN FOR THE
FUNERAL. HIS ATTORNEY NOTIFIED ME AND MY FAMILY ABOUT
MY FATHER�S WILL WITH HIS CHAMBERS. WHEN I WAS GOING
THROUGH THE WILL I DISCOVERED THAT MY LATE FATHER USED
HIS POSITION THEN TO MAKE SOME MONEY, WHICH HE
BRILLIANTLY TRANSFERRED AND DEPOSIT IT WITH A PRIVATE
SECURITY COMPANY HERE IN JOHANNESBURG REBUBLIC OF
SOUTH AFRICA. HE DEPOSITED THIS CONSIGNMENT AS
VALUABLES. THE SECURITY COMPANY DOES NOT KNOW THAT
THIS CONSIGNMENT CONTAINS CASH MONEY, EXCEPT THE
ATTORNEY AND ME

THE AMMOUNT IS U.S$26.5MILLION(TWENTY SIX MILLION FIVE
HUNDRED THOUSAND UNITED STATES DOLLARS) HOWEVER MY AIM
OF CONTACTING YOU IS TO HELP ME AND TAKE THIS SUM INTO
YOUR NOMINATED ACCOUNT IN YOUR COUNTRY FOR INVESTMENT
OVERSEAS BECAUSE I DON�T HAVE A KNOWLEDGE OF
INTERNATIONAL INVESTMENTS. AS A RESULT OF MY PRESENT
SITUATION, I WILL NOT BE ABLE TO CONCLUDE THIS
TRANSACTION ALONE.

IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN HELPING ME OUT, TRY AND
CONTACT ME WITH THE ABOVE TELEPHONE AND FAX NUMBERS
INDICATING YOUR INTEREST TO HELP ME. I WILL THEN
FURNISH YOU WITH MORE DETAILS. I HAVE MUTUALLY AGREED
TO COMPENSATE YOU WITH 25% OF THE TOTAL SUM FOR YOUR
ASSISTANCE, 5% FOR EXPENSES IN THE COURSE OF THE
TRANSACTION. THEN THE REMAINING 70% WILL REMAIN FOR MY
FAMILY AND ME, WHICH YOU WILL HELP US INVEST.

BE INFORMED THAT THIS TRANSACTION NEEDS UTMOST TRUST
AND CONFIDENTIALITY. NOTE ALSO THAT THE TRANSACTION
ATTRACTS NO RISK ON YOUR SIDE HENCE ALL THE MODALITIES
FOR SAFE, SMOOTH AND I HAVE ARRANGED SUCCESSFUL
TRANSACTION.

LOOKING FORWARD TO RECEIVE YOUR URGENT REPLY. GOD
BLESS YOU.

MR JEFF NYERERE JNR









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 26

                      Re: Rendlesham Radiation - Bolton

From: David Bolton <David@bolton.sol.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 19:06:04 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:02:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Rendlesham Radiation - Bolton


I posted a message on Updates yesterday - in which I actually
wrote the sentence:

"Authorities would not be happy to admit that they allowed the
USAF to deliberately de-orbit pieces of space hardware over the
top of Sizewell A nuclear power station."

However, what appeared on the list was this bowdlerised version:

 >Authorities would not be happy to admit that they allowed the USAF
 >to deliberately de-orbit pieces of space hardware over the top of
 >Sizewell, a nuclear power station.

Sizewell is a place - not a power station. The letter "A" refers
to the station which was in Suffolk at the time - I used its
current designation to differentiate it form "Sizewell B", which
had not yet been built.

This is actually quite relevent - in that there was a huge
public enquiry into the safety aspects of building the "B"
reactor at Sizewell in the 1980s. One of the safety cases
involved the probability of the building being hit by aircraft,
meteors, or man- made space debris. Had it been publicly known
that the USAF was regularly returning re-entry capsules (every
fortnight, or so) in a trajectory that took them close to the
existing station - and that parachute failure could allow the
capsule to crash to earth with relatively high velocity - then
the subsequent scandal would have probably resulted in planning
permission for the new station being withdrawn (at the very
least).


--
David G Bolton
<David@Bolton.SOL.co.uk>







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 26

                Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Strickland

From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 12:14:26 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:10:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction - Strickland


 >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:09:07 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction

 >>From: Sue Strickland <strick@h2net.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction
 >>Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:51:13 -0600

 >>You will _not_ be given his name under any circumstances,
 >>because it will _not_ be his opinion, but rather the historical
 >>published opinion of others. Therefore, anyone's 'inability' to
 >>accept the facts (whatever they may be... if there _are_ any!)
 >>becomes a 'personal preference'.

 >How strange that we hardly ever seem to be given the names,
 >qualifications or professional backgrounds of doctors,
 >psychiatrists, engineeers, etc. who pronounce on abductions.
 >Without knowing who these people are and what their positions
 >are, there pronoucements have no more value than those of you,
 >me or Joe Soap.

 >John Rimmer
 >Magonia Magazine
 >www.magonia.demon.co.uk

Dear John,

Why do feel you need his name, since it would have no bearing or
relevance on the medical opinion being offered from a published,
cited medical resource... if the information is even available?

That kind rhetorical attempt to preface the validity of a
debate, using a person's stature in the community, etc., went
out with Abraham Lincoln. He had none, and he knew it. Instead,
according to the history books, he addressed issues very
differently dependent upon the constituency, what they wanted to
hear, and the location of his speeches... North vs. South. He
knew full-well that the untimeliness of communications would be
to his benefit, as one side would not find out what he professed
to the other for weeks or months in advance. I don't want to
believe your motivations are in any way so similarly motivated.

It isn't your business to denegrate, but to fact find, isn't it?
As John Velez pointed out, in an "ideal world", we could give
names, but it isn't so. And, some people on this List are
'lurkers' for the same reasons. They cannot reveal themselves to
the general public, because some may have already lost jobs,
family, friends based on their stance on the UFO phenomena. Case
in point: Dr. Mack.

My opinion counts for a lot with me, as do others' opinions, as
I have demonstrated on this List in the past. I am not so
intransigent as to believe there may _not_ be other viable
explanations, such as "swamp gas" and the like. I am willing to
consider the possibility, and do frequently, that there may be
some physical or mental anamoly that is the root-cause of these
thousands of sightings that thousands of people all over the
world are now photographing and experiencing. Those reasons may
or may not include an as yet undiscovered physical environmental
anomaly, which may be at the source of many of these
experiences. I simply have no basis on which to make that kind
of assumption, yet. Do you?

Furthermore, it is my _not_ so humble opinion, that we _all_
know so little about the phenomena being discussed on this List,
that it serves no positive purpose to 'point fingers', 'place
blame' and/or 'find fault' and make snide digs about those who
are already distressed by the experiences, if they are willing
and able to do research into these phenomena. John, since you
obviously are not so distressed, why get to a medical library
and do some fact-finding on this subject, instead of making
snide remarks about others who are trying?

I, the pot, decided to call the kettle (you) black, just to
point out to you how hurtful and pointless such remarks made on
this List can be. It is truly unbecoming of you to write such
condescending snide remarks, when you have no better
understanding than "Joe Soap" or I do of what is happening.

And, you have the gall to remind Jerry Clark of his
condescending attitude toward Dave Clarke? Groan.


Sincerely,

Sue Strickland
ex-abductee









   UFO UpDates
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   Oct > Oct 26

                Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clarke

From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 19:36:44 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:13:02 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clarke


 >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:03:12 -0500
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clark
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:27:56 -0500

 >>The story of Goldwater's curious experience is hardly a mere
 >>"rumor."

 >>Some rumor. Some reaction to same.

 >Jerry,

 >Yes, many of us are aware of that incident, albeit, apparently,
 >not Dave Clarke.

 >Jerry,

 >Yes, many of us are aware of that incident, albeit, apparently,
 >not Dave Clarke.

 >Do you know if anyone other than Goldwater has ever referred to
 >a "Blue Room" at Wright-Pat? I'm not talking about Hangar 18
 >stories in general here, but the specific reference to a Blue
 >Room.


Hi Dennis,

Let's be clear about this. No one is questioning that Goldwater
tried to gain access to a room at a military base and was
refused access.

Where I take issue is what conclusions are drawn from that one
established matter of fact.

Does it necessarily follow that, de facto it was because Le May
was trying to conceal bits of a flying saucer?

Is that what you _really_ believe?

You say that Goldwater "understood that UFO remains" were kept
in the Blue Room. How did he come to "understand" this? Who told
him this was the case - it couldn't have been a high military
source such as Philip Corso, could it?

Could it be that he "understood" this was the case because he
had heard a popular rumour to that effect?

These are questions that need answering; "it was rumoured" and
"he understood" don't amount to much. I understand that the
rumour concerning a captured spaceship concealed at Wright-
Patterson AFB has similarities to the plot of a science fiction
novel "The Fortec Conspiracy" by RM Garvin and EG Addeo,
published in 1966, that was responsible for a wave of rumours at
the time. Parallels can be drawn here with the "angels of Mons"
where fiction was taken as fact when repeated as rumour.

The Goldwater story sounds like an example of a "contemporary
legend" referred to by the folklorist Jan Brunvand as "the
Secret Truth" - a cosmic secret accidentally revealed by a
powerful politician or military leader As Brunvand said, "I
expect that I'll get some angry mail for suggesting that this
might be an area of modern legend"... I know how he feels!

To give this a British perspective, numerous attempts have been
made to gain entry to the UK's Blue Room - RAF Rudloe Manor in
Wiltshire by those who "understood" that the MOD are concealing
UFO secrets in the underground chamber beneath the station.

Author Tim Good even got himself arrested whilst prowling around
the perimeter during the 1980s. What did he expect, a guided
tour? No doubt if a curious Member of Parliament asked for
direct access to the station on a UFO agenda he or she might get
the same answer that Goldwater got from Le May.

Does that in itself prove the UK Government are hiding a crashed
saucer or does it simply mean that _all_ Governments -
particularly during periods of war and international tension -
are paranoid about who they allow into their most sensitive
military installations, even MPs and Senators?


All the best,

Dave Clarke








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   Oct > Oct 26

                 Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:04:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:23:28 -0400
Subject: Re:  A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Velez


 >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:22:24 -0400
 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
 >Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'!
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:55:24 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'!
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Truth be known, Luis, I do not know if that which I perceive I've
 >>experienced really happened. And I am the first to admit to this
 >>fact. I say only that the UFO abduction phenomena is the only one
 >>which best explains what I've experienced. Which is why I almost
 >>always use the word, "perceived" experiences.

 >>And I believe that skeptics are of value to the conundrum. I do
 >>not believe that skeptibunkers are of any value, even to
 >>themselves. And I define a skeptibunker as one who cannot admit
 >>even to the possibilty of alien intervention. One who will cop to
 >>any and all excuses, even unreasonable ones, to attempt to
 >>explain it. Such is culpable ignorence.

 ><snip>

 >>PS: I choose not to be believed, but rather for people to believe
 >>the possibility. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 >I just wanted to say that the above was well-said and worth a
 >rereading, especially by "extremist members" of opposing sides
 >of this Mystery.

Hi Ron,

Gee, I guess that makes those of us who have had undeniable and
close-up real-World UFO abduction experiences "extremists" now.
How convenient for those who deny out of hand, and without any
formal investigation, that these things ever happen at all. This
is why when Wendy and I were discussing which abduction cases
lend themselves best to being investigated, I suggested
concentrating on cases where there was a report of a _direct_
and clear contact with a UFO and UFO occupants. Jim, and others
like him, who "think" they "may be" abductees (that have had
experiences that the participants themselves are unsure of)
should _not_ be put into the same category as the types of cases
I have mentioned above. As I said to Wendy, many who identify
themselves as "abductees" are _not_ "abductees". And as such,
they are not representative cases of the nuts and bolts type of
"events/phenomena" that many others are reporting... and that
they are _sure_ of.

Cases such as Mortellaro's are the ones that the psychologists
need to look at. For those of us who are trying to get a formal
investigation into events that we are _sure_of_, self-diagnosed
cases such as Mr. Mortellaro's only serve to further cloud the
issue and in the long run, provide encouragement and fodder for
those who wish to dismiss _all_ abduction reports.

Because one or even one hundred others tell you that they "think"
they "might be" an abductee, but they are not sure, does not take
away one iota from the ones who _are_sure_. As in individuals who
have had real time/real world _events_ happen to them that are
worthy of further study. An admission such as the one Mortellaro
offers also does not make those of us (who are certain about what
has happened to us) "extremists" either. I resent having what
happened to me and many others compared to the "may-be, may be not"
nebulous crap that many self-diagnosed/self-proclaimed "abductees"
report.

Although Jim's confession is honest it should not be used as an
excuse to lump it in with the reports of those us who are sure
of what we are reporting and about what has happened to us. To
label us as "extremists" because we _are_certain_ about the
facts/details of what we are reporting is unfair. Because 'some'
may be "unsure", doesn't mean that we _all_ are.

And it doesn't make us, (those of us who are confident we know
what has happened to us) "extremists" either. I resent being
labelled that way. I am reporting something I _know_ happened.

As an abductee who _is_sure,_ I'd just like to say, Thanx for
all your 'help' Jim. For someone who isn't sure about what may
or may not have happened to them, you seem to have a lot to say
on the subject. Speaking for those of us who have had very real,
terrifying and _undeniable_ experiences, (that we are sure of,)
guys like you make it all the harder for us to get the publics'
_serious_ consideration. On that level, you hurt our public case
much more than you help. "Unsure" people such as yourself only
serve to muddy already murky waters almost beyond hope for the
rest of us who _are_ certain, and who report on _actual_
events. And not our own "interpretations" (speculations) of
dreams and nebulous night-time activities we are not even sure
of. You and your alleged "case" is not _representative_ of what
is a very real and life disrupting phenomenon for many others
world-wide. You do the rest of us who report factual events that
we had to live through (and whose memories we have to live with)
a grave disservice.

To Ron and anyone else who may wish to learn more about UFO
abduction cases (where the participant is reporting on actual
events that they are _sure_ of,) I highly recommend that you
speak to people like Katharina Wilson, Debbie 'Jordan' Kauble,
Russ Hudson, Travis Walton, Charlie Hickson, or even to myself.
We may not know 'who' or 'what' is perpetrating these
kidnappings or even for what purpose, but unlike "abductees"
like Mortellaro, at least we are _sure_ of the details of the
events that we are reporting.

"Docca":

Your misrepresentation of UFO abduction is a big part of the
reason why I'm _always_ on your case. Guys like you negate the
real and frightening experiences of a great many honest and
credible people. Abductees like the ones that participated in
the M.I.T. Conference and in other public venues. People that
have worked hard for years to get the serious consideration of
the public at large. Man, if you have any doubt about the harm
you do, just listen to Ron's comment (regarding anyone who is
certain about what is happening to them) that they are
"extremists."

The confusion that self-diagnosed "abductees" such as yourself
create for the rest of us; the doubt that it casts on all the
others who _are sure_;  is precisely why your "handshake of
friendship" can hang in space till hell freezes over. If you are
so "unsure" of what you are talking about, lurking and studying
the reports of those who are sure, may be a better way for you
to spend your spare time. It'd be much less of a pain-in-the-ass
for guys like me who are reporting actual events.  :)

I don't know, how would you relate to someone who comes on the
List, and talks a blue streak about something they are not even
sure happened? If you're out to prove that some people are so
gullible that they convince themselves to believe they are being
abducted by aliens (and tell others about it) without
_substantial_ reason to do so, then you've made your point. As
it reflects on the cases of those who have had actual
experiences, well it simply doesn't. You and many others like
you are a category all unto yourselves. And one that has nothing
to do with what is happening to, and being reported, by many
others world-wide.


Sincerely,

John Velez

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."











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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 26

                        Re: Beware New Scam! - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:14:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:52:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Beware New Scam! - Sandow


 >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:35:39 -0400
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Beware New Scam!
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >I received the following in my email. Note the similarity to
 >previous scam from Nigeria.


<scam continues after my message>

I've gotten two of these, one allegedly from the son of the
ex-butcher of Zaire, Joseph Mobuto, and one from South Africa.
What amazed me is that both messages made perfectly clear that
the money they spoke of was illegally earned! Is this some kind
of FBI ploy?

Greg Sandow


 >Sender: jeffnyerere@yahoo.com
 >Received: from web20803.mail.yahoo.com (web20803.mail.yahoo.com
 >[216.136.226.192])
 >by siaag1af.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.12) with SMTP id
 >IAA23428 for <brumac@compuserve.com>; Fri, 26 Oct 2001
 >08:10:56 -0400 (EDT)
 >Message-ID:
<20011026121050.60327.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com>
 >Received: from [196.2.45.139] by web20803.mail.yahoo.com via
 >HTTP; Fri, 26
 >Oct 2001 05:10:50 PDT
 >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 05:10:50 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: jeff nyerere <jeffnyerere@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Confidential (Bruce MacCabee )
 >To: brumac@compuserve.com

 >PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL

 >MR JEFF NYERERE (JNR)

 >JOHANNESBURG SOUTH AFRICA

 >TEL.+27-83-955-9820

 >THE DIRECTOR,

 >DEAR SIR,

 >I DO FORESEE THE SURPRISE THIS LETTER WILL BRING TO
 >YOU AS IT COMES FROM A STRANGER. BUT BE REST ASSURED
 >AS IT COMES WITH THE BEST OF INTENTIONS, HOWEVER YOUR
 >ADDRESS WAS COURTESY OF A BUSINESS JOURNAL AT THE
 >WORLD TRADE CENTRE IN JOHANNESBURG BUT AFTER A DUE
 >CINSIDERATION FROM YOUR PROFILE, I BECAME AWARE AND
 >ASSURED OF YOUR CREDIBILITY OF HANDLING THE TRUST AND
 >MY FUTURE. THUS AFTER MY HUMBLE DECISION TO SOLICIT
 >YOUR UNDERSTANDING AND CO-OPERATION IN THIS
 >TRANSACTION, AS IT WILL BE BENEFICIAL TO ALL OF
 >USINVOLVED.

 >MY NAME IS MR JEFF NYERERE JNR  FROM TANZANIA, I AM THE
 >SON OF THE LATE PRESIDENT OF TANZANIA JULIUS NYERERE WHO
 >DIED TWO YEARS AGO. MY FATHER USED HIS POSITION THEN
 >TO MAKE FOR HIMSELF AND US SOME FUTURE. MY FATHER DIED
 >AFTER A PROTRACTED ILLNESS. I WAS STUDYING OVERSEAS
 >WHEN MY FATHER DIED AND I WAS FORCED TO RETURN FOR THE
 >FUNERAL. HIS ATTORNEY NOTIFIED ME AND MY FAMILY ABOUT
 >MY FATHER�S WILL WITH HIS CHAMBERS. WHEN I WAS GOING
 >THROUGH THE WILL I DISCOVERED THAT MY LATE FATHER USED
 >HIS POSITION THEN TO MAKE SOME MONEY, WHICH HE
 >BRILLIANTLY TRANSFERRED AND DEPOSIT IT WITH A PRIVATE
 >SECURITY COMPANY HERE IN JOHANNESBURG REBUBLIC OF
 >SOUTH AFRICA. HE DEPOSITED THIS CONSIGNMENT AS
 >VALUABLES. THE SECURITY COMPANY DOES NOT KNOW THAT
 >THIS CONSIGNMENT CONTAINS CASH MONEY, EXCEPT THE
 >ATTORNEY AND ME

 >THE AMMOUNT IS U.S$26.5MILLION(TWENTY SIX MILLION FIVE
 >HUNDRED THOUSAND UNITED STATES DOLLARS) HOWEVER MY AIM
 >OF CONTACTING YOU IS TO HELP ME AND TAKE THIS SUM INTO
 >YOUR NOMINATED ACCOUNT IN YOUR COUNTRY FOR INVESTMENT
 >OVERSEAS BECAUSE I DON�T HAVE A KNOWLEDGE OF
 >INTERNATIONAL INVESTMENTS. AS A RESULT OF MY PRESENT
 >SITUATION, I WILL NOT BE ABLE TO CONCLUDE THIS
 >TRANSACTION ALONE.

 >IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN HELPING ME OUT, TRY AND
 >CONTACT ME WITH THE ABOVE TELEPHONE AND FAX NUMBERS
 >INDICATING YOUR INTEREST TO HELP ME. I WILL THEN
 >FURNISH YOU WITH MORE DETAILS. I HAVE MUTUALLY AGREED
 >TO COMPENSATE YOU WITH 25% OF THE TOTAL SUM FOR YOUR
 >ASSISTANCE, 5% FOR EXPENSES IN THE COURSE OF THE
 >TRANSACTION. THEN THE REMAINING 70% WILL REMAIN FOR MY
 >FAMILY AND ME, WHICH YOU WILL HELP US INVEST.

 >BE INFORMED THAT THIS TRANSACTION NEEDS UTMOST TRUST
 >AND CONFIDENTIALITY. NOTE ALSO THAT THE TRANSACTION
 >ATTRACTS NO RISK ON YOUR SIDE HENCE ALL THE MODALITIES
 >FOR SAFE, SMOOTH AND I HAVE ARRANGED SUCCESSFUL
 >TRANSACTION.

 >LOOKING FORWARD TO RECEIVE YOUR URGENT REPLY. GOD
 >BLESS YOU.

 >MR JEFF NYERERE JNR









   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 27

                 Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:32:05 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:48:55 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Rimmer


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed
 >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:32:20 -0500

 >>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:00:06 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed
 >>>Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:08:41 -0500

 >John,

 >>>>>At least we can agree on that, as long as you are including
 >>>>>yourself in this condescending equation.

 >>>To the contrary, my friend. I'm saying we _all_ have prejudices.
 >>>Even you.

 >>Jerry, are you aware of just how condescending your constant use
 >>of the phrase "my friend" is?

 >Are you aware of how paranoid you sound?

 >Or perhaps you'd prefer that I refer to friendly rivals as
 >"stupid, mindless, bigoted, spittle-spewing jerks" when I
 >address them? Would that make you happy?


No, I'd rather you didn't say anything at all and just got on
with your often interesting posts. If I was actually your
friend, I would not need to be reminded of the fact in every
message you post on this List. Everybody else who participates
here manages to make their points without constantly pointing
out that they are such friendly chaps.

I find it an irritating affectation which does actually seem
quite condescending - the implication seems to be that we are
supposed to be in some way impressed or grateful that we have
been acknowledged as friends of the great Jerry Clark.

Like most irritation affectations, it is quite easy to cure.
Just don't do it - it's not at all difficult, old chum.


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 27

                            'Profiles In Ufology'

From: Reed Hall <rhall@carbon.cudenver.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 14:40:22 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:51:13 -0400
Subject: 'Profiles In Ufology'


Hi, all -

In addition to being a longtime lurker on this List, I'm the
producer/host of a series of programs entitled 'Profiles In
Ufology'. These are long-format (90+ minutes each) videotaped
interviews, or dialogues, which I am able to conduct from time
to time with various UFO investigators and researchers.

Thus far, these interviews haven't been seen much beyond local
MUFON meetings and local cable TV community access, but I've
just launched a website to promote them more broadly. I invite
everyone to visit:

http://www.ufointerviews.com

These rather lengthy live-on-video "fireside chats" are long
enough to allow us to go into the material in significant depth
and detail (as opposed to the usual "sound-byte" approach
typical of most UFO- related TV programs), and I've been
fortunate enough to interviews some pretty significant "names"
in the field (Jacobs, Carpenter, Haines, Schuessler, and a few
others).

Just thought Listers here might be interested.


Thanks,

Reed Hall

................................................................


(from the website:)

"'Profiles in UFOlogy' is a series of very in-depth one-on-one
video interviews with leading contemporary UFOlogists. Each
program focuses primarily upon the interviewee's own body of
work and unique contributions to the field of UFOlogy. Our
"mission" centers upon disseminating information about, and
presenting various interpretations of, the UFO phenomenon (and
related matters). Our intent is to broadly raise awareness of
the phenomenon among the general public, as well as to stimulate
deeper reflection and dialogue within the UFOlogical community.
Our ongoing video series is dedicated to achieving these ends by
providing viewers with informative and thought-provoking
discussion with key UFO researchers and investigators."








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 27

                Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:39:09 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:54:17 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Rimmer


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:37:13 -0500

 >>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:17:35 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!

 >>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:26:43 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >John,

 >>How different from the believers' mindset, which says that

 >>1) No UFO case must ever be explained.

 >This is fascinating. Can you cite one UFO proponent -- just one --
 >who holds the view you have just attributed to him or her?

 >>2) Everything any UFO witness or abductee reports must be
 >>accepted without question as the literal truth. Anyone who
 >>doubts of finds discrepancies in an account is a heartless,
 >>unsympathetic monster.

 >Likewise.

 >>3) There are no earthly explanations.

 >Likewise.

 >>4) If documentary evidence which can decisively explain a case
 >>is produced it is clearly "disinformation", probably spread by
 >>the US government. This is because believing ufologists are so
 >>clever that it takes the resources of an entire government to
 >>fool them

 >Likewise.

 >>5) If ultimately believers are forced by the weight of evidence
 >>to accept a sceptical explanation, they cling to the hope that
 >>eventually someday, sometime someone will come up with the
 >>"smoking gun" which proves the ETH. 55 years and counting.

 >Does this read as incoherently to the rest of you as it does to
 >me? It doesn't describe the mindset of anybody I know, and I'll
 >wager that I've been in ufology even longer than John ("Never
 >Say Brit") Rimmer.

 >Jerry Clark

Similarly, Jerry, please give chapter and verse references to
sceptics who have proclaimed the views attributed to them in
Robert Gates's humorous contribution which provoked my comments
above:


 >The skeptical mindset has been over the years:
 >1) No amount of documents or evidence will ever convince... (so)

 >2) Most if not all documents and evidence are proof of
 >   misidentification, hoax, stars, balloons or errors by the
 >   witness... (but)

 >3) If said document or evidence cannot be explained as above,
 >   then we attack the credibility of the witness...

 >4) Bottom line it absolutly cannot be, so no matter what or who
 >   everything points to some "earthly" explaination.... (if)

 >5) We are unable to find said earthly explaination we cling to
 >   the hope that someday, sometime, someone, will come up with
 >   said earthly explaination.



--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2001 >
   Oct > Oct 27

                Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:45:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:55:46 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Sandow


 >From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 19:36:44 +0100

 >Hi Dennis,

 >Let's be clear about this. No one is questioning that Goldwater
 >tried to gain access to a room at a military base and was
 >refused access.

 >Where I take issue is what conclusions are drawn from that one
 >established matter of fact.

 >Does it necessarily follow that, de facto it was because Le May
 >was trying to conceal bits of a flying saucer?

Not at all. But in what follows (about urban legends, and the
like), Dave seems not to understand why the Goldwater incident
might be important. It helps here (sorry!) to be an American, or
at least to have a good knowledge of American politics during
the last 50 years.

Goldwater wasn't just some random member of the U.S. Congress.
He was one of its most respected senior members, with especially
close friendships with leading figures in the military. He first
was notorious as what at the time seemed like an right-winger,
and as the unsuccessful Republican candidate for president in
1964. In that election, he was resoundingly defeated.

But as time went on (and as the country swung to the right) his
views started to seem less extreme. Toward the end of his life,
in fact, he was a refreshing antidote to far-right
Republicanism. He became famous for his independence, his common
sense, and his determination to call the shots as he saw them.
For instance, he supported the right of gay people to serve in
the military, which wasn't at all a popular position among
right-wing Republicans. He developed a reputation, richly
deserved, for being one of the most honest people ever to hold
high office in Washington during the last 50 years. You could
disagree with him, but you had to respect him.

And he made his statement about Le May and Wright-Patterson not
just in any random publication, but in the New Yorker, one of
the most literate and respected magazines in America, and never
one to take any interest in UFOs and the paranormal. His
statement, moreover, was very strong. It doesn't prove anything
about UFOs, but it does demonstrate beyond any doubt that
Goldwater believed that there might (I repeat, _might_) be UFO
materials secretly stored at Wright-Patterson AFB. And that
General Le May, an exceedingly high-ranking figure in the Air
Force, responded with special force when Goldwater asked about
it. Le May, according to Goldwater, didn't say "What are you
talking about?" "I don't know what you mean" or "That's all
nonsense." He said (I'm quoting from memory, but it was
something like this), "Hell, no! You can't go there [to the
alleged "blue room"], I can't go there, and don't ever ask me
again!" Goldwater thought that meant Le May was telling him
there really was something there.

This isn't a story that's easily dismissed. Again, to avoid
pointless arguments, it doesn't prove anything. It's only
Goldwater's opinion, first about the possibilty that something
was concealed, and second that Le May appeared to be confirming
that. But if you try to add up evidence on both sides of the
argument -- is there definitive UFO proof, even wreckage of a
UFO, somewhere in the possession of the US government? --
Goldwater's statement is something that gets put on the positive
side of the scale, because it seriously suggests a positive
answer to the question. Again, to avoid pointless arguments, let
me state that this doesn't mean that there aren't other things
that just as strongly suggest a negative answer.

The main point, though, is that Goldwater's statement can't be
dismissed so quickly, with airy talk of urban legends and
humorous jibes about where Goldwater might have gotten his idea
in the first place. Given his stature, and his close connections
to the military, he could just as well have heard rumors from
inside the military -- which, let me stress, could arise whether
or not the rumors are true.

Greg Sandow








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   Oct > Oct 27

               Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - McCartney

From: Pat McCartney <ElPatricio@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:47:43 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:57:17 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - McCartney


 >From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 19:36:44 +0100

 >Let's be clear about this. No one is questioning that Goldwater
 >tried to gain access to a room at a military base and was
 >refused access.

 >Where I take issue is what conclusions are drawn from that one
 >established matter of fact.

 >Does it necessarily follow that, de facto it was because Le May
 >was trying to conceal bits of a flying saucer?

 >Is that what you _really_ believe?

 >You say that Goldwater "understood that UFO remains" were kept
 >in the Blue Room. How did he come to "understand" this? Who told
 >him this was the case - it couldn't have been a high military
 >source such as Philip Corso, could it?

 >Could it be that he "understood" this was the case because he
 >had heard a popular rumour to that effect?

 >These are questions that need answering; "it was rumoured" and
 >"he understood" don't amount to much. I understand that the
 >rumour concerning a captured spaceship concealed at Wright-
 >Patterson AFB has similarities to the plot of a science fiction
 >novel "The Fortec Conspiracy" by RM Garvin and EG Addeo,
 >published in 1966, that was responsible for a wave of rumours at
 >the time. Parallels can be drawn here with the "angels of Mons"
 >where fiction was taken as fact when repeated as rumour.

Oh, puh-leeze! The reason Barry Goldwater's attempt to gain
access to the alleged UFO artifacts at Wright-Patterson is
significant is because he was so well-placed in U.S. military
and political circles. The fact that Sen. Goldwater was a
conservative politician, a pilot in the U.S. Air Force Reserves,
and at one time chaired the Senate Select Committee on
Intelligence would suggest to all but the obtuse that he was
privy to scuttlebutt within the intelligence and military
community that is not easily accessed by the general public.
Please don't denigrate that significance by suggesting Sen.
Goldwater was influenced by such popular pap as "The Fortec
Conspiracy." That notion may bring you comfort, but I consider
it foolish to suggest.

Yes, there are rumors floating around in the vast U.S.
intelligence community about the existence of UFO's. I ran into
a former classmate of mine at a reunion, a bright guy who had
joined the National Security Agency after school. When I asked
him whether he had information about UFO's, he answered me in
that elliptical way that people who take security oaths often do
to avoid breaking their oath. "Did you ever see the movie,
'Hanger 18?'" he asked. When I said I had, he said, "What that
movie portrayed is not far from the truth." That's all. A
"rumor" from someone who had served his country inside the
intelligence services, responding to an old friend in a way that
would not compromise his secrecy oath.

For the uninitiated, "Hangar 18" was a fictionalized account of
the Wright-Patterson UFO rumors.

Pat McCartney







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                 Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:24:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:58:51 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clark


 >From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed
 >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 19:36:44 +0100

 >>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:03:12 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed
 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clark
 >>>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:27:56 -0500


Hi, Dave,

 >Let's be clear about this. No one is questioning that Goldwater
 >tried to gain access to a room at a military base and was
 >refused access.

 >Where I take issue is what conclusions are drawn from that one
 >established matter of fact.

 >You say that Goldwater "understood that UFO remains" were kept
 >in the Blue Room. How did he come to "understand" this? Who told
 >him this was the case - it couldn't have been a high military
 >source such as Philip Corso, could it?

It's not clear to whom you're addressing this. On the theory
that it is I, I here respond:

Goldwater was tightlipped about his sources, though of course
because of his military and political connections -- Goldwater
was a major figure in American politics for more than two
decades, a high-ranking Senator with many social and official
links to the military and intelligence establishment, former
Republican Presidential candidate, a founder of the modern
conservative movement, and a brigadier general in the Air Force
Reserve -- he had access to information unavailable to the rest
of us. This is beyond dispute. Beyond that, we just don't know
where he got the story about the Blue Room, and Goldwater wasn't
willing to share his sources with inquirers. The fact that the
curious phrase "Blue Room" -- which, as Dennis Stacy has
interestingly noted, does not figure in the popular lore of
Hangar 18 -- enters into the story indicates that the sources
were not drawing on the usual literature and rumors.

 >The Goldwater story sounds like an example of a "contemporary
 >legend" referred to by the folklorist Jan Brunvand as "the
 >Secret Truth" - a cosmic secret accidentally revealed by a
 >powerful politician or military leader As Brunvand said, "I
 >expect that I'll get some angry mail for suggesting that this
 >might be an area of modern legend"... I know how he feels!

Sorry to disappoint you, Dave. No anger here, just
disappointment with the sogginess of your argument. Jan Brunvand
is not the expert here, his views a notably unhelpful guide to
resolution of the issue we're addressing here.

To the contrary, LeMay's angry response to Goldwater's request
makes no sense whatever as a demonstration of the
Brunvand/Clarke hypothesis. It does make sense, however, if one
deduces:

(a) LeMay did not want to lie to a friend -- in other words,
pretend to him that the tale was only a baseless legend of the
sort that the wise, all-knowing Prof. Brunvand was documenting;
thus (b) LeMay told Goldwater in no uncertain terms never to ask
again. Consequently, (c) LeMay didn't have to betray a
friendship with a blatant falsehood, nor (d) did he have to
answer truthfully a query to which, for national-security
reasons, he could not reply openly and honestly.

Marginally more credibly if one is looking for a safely orthodox
explanation for the anecdote's origin, one could argue that
Goldwater concocted the story out of whole cloth. This would
contradict the man's celebrated reputation as a straight-shooter
-- one of the themes, incidentally, of The New Yorker profile in
which the remarks were quoted, respectfully I might add -- and
it would require a degree of supporting evidence invisible at
the moment. But it sure as hell would be more plausible than the
Brunvand/Clarke hypothesis, namely that LeMay flew into a rage
when asked about a baseless popular rumor, citing national
security as the reason for refusing to discuss said fiction.

And in anticipation of the inevitable: _Of course_ I am not
contending that this is "proof" of crashed discs. It is an
anecdote consistent with others we've heard. It is intriguing,
and in the absence of supporting evidence and further
information, that's all it is for now, or maybe forever. What I
am objecting to here is a lame effort to dispose of it. Even
self-described rationalists like yourself are obliged, after
all, to employ rational arguments.


Cordially (by which I mean no offense),

Jerry Clark










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   Oct > Oct 27

                Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:24:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:01:08 -0400
Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Felder


 >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:04:11 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'!

 >>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:22:24 -0400
 >>From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
 >>Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'!
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:55:24 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'!
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

<snip>

 >Because one or even one hundred others tell you that they "think"
 >they "might be" an abductee, but they are not sure, does not take
 >away one iota from the ones who _are_sure_. As in individuals who
 >have had real time/real world _events_ happen to them that are
 >worthy of further study. An admission such as the one Mortellaro
 >offers also does not make those of us (who are certain about what
 >has happened to us) "extremists" either. I resent having what
 >happened to me and many others compared to the "may-be, may be not"
 >nebulous crap that many self-diagnosed/self-proclaimed "abductees"
 >report.

Fact of life: until someone can offer up definitive,
irrefutable, scientifically-testable evidence that proves beyond
the shadow of a doubt that the alien abduction phenomenon is
indeed a real, physical, actually occurring event, there will
always be those who question _any_ claim of abduction. And even
after such evidence is offered up, tested and retested and
tested again, there will _still_ be some who deny its validity.

 >Although Jim's confession is honest it should not be used as an
 >excuse to lump it in with the reports of those us who are sure
 >of what we are reporting and about what has happened to us. To
 >label us as "extremists" because we _are_certain_ about the
 >facts/details of what we are reporting is unfair. Because 'some'
 >may be "unsure", doesn't mean that we _all_ are.

The same is true on the other extreme: because _some_ of you are
sure doesn't mean that anyone else is sure. _You_ are obviously
convinced that you're right about your own personal experience.
If so, that's fine. But you're asking a lot if you expect others
to believe it on faith alone until such time as you, or some
other claimant, can come up with the evidence to back up your
claim.

Like it or not, that's the reality of the world, especially if
one takes a look outside the UFO circles.

I think the fact that Jim is willing to publicly admit that he
may suspect that abduction explains his experiences, but he
isn't certain of that, shows a strength of character. He is
obviously still questioning and searching for answers to his
experiences, and I see nothing wrong with that.

<snip>

 >As an abductee who _is_sure,_ I'd just like to say, Thanx for
 >all your 'help' Jim. For someone who isn't sure about what may
 >or may not have happened to them, you seem to have a lot to say
 >on the subject. Speaking for those of us who have had very real,
 >terrifying and _undeniable_ experiences, (that we are sure of,)
 >guys like you make it all the harder for us to get the publics'
 >_serious_ consideration. On that level, you hurt our public case
 >much more than you help.

Actually, I think the "something happened to me and I don't know
exactly what it was, but I think it may have involved alien
abduction" attitude does a lot more for the question of
abduction reality than a "I was abducted, I know it happened,
and I don't have to prove it but you have to believe me anyway"
attitude. It is far easier to take seriously someone who knows
that _something_ happened, and is willing to explore _all_
possibilities - including alien abduction - before expecting
others to believe it than it is to accept the reality of such an
event on what amounts to basically hearsay alone.

Bobbie



"The level of civilization of a people can be judged by the social
position of its women." - Domingo Sarmiento
==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========










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   Oct > Oct 27

                 Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:36:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:03:07 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Stacy


 >From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 19:36:44 +0100

 >>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:03:12 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clark
 >>>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:27:56 -0500

 >>>The story of Goldwater's curious experience is hardly a mere
 >>>"rumor."

 >>>Some rumor. Some reaction to same.

 >>Jerry,

 >>Yes, many of us are aware of that incident, albeit, apparently,
 >>not Dave Clarke.

 >>Do you know if anyone other than Goldwater has ever referred to
 >>a "Blue Room" at Wright-Pat? I'm not talking about Hangar 18
 >>stories in general here, but the specific reference to a Blue
 >>Room.

 >Let's be clear about this. No one is questioning that Goldwater
 >tried to gain access to a room at a military base and was
 >refused access.

 >Where I take issue is what conclusions are drawn from that one
 >established matter of fact.

 >Does it necessarily follow that, de facto it was because Le May
 >was trying to conceal bits of a flying saucer?

 >Is that what you _really_ believe?


Dave,

No, I never said or suggested that it did, or that I believed
same. I merely said that Goldwater's statement to the effect
that he was denied access to the Blue Room was an established
fact and a matter of record -- not a mere rumor (or rumour). I'm
glad to see that you agree. For your files and the record, where
did I say or even remotely suggest that "Le May was trying to
conceal bits of a flying saucer"? Those are your words, not
mine. Will you be the gentleman and admit as much?

 >You say that Goldwater "understood that UFO remains" were kept
 >in the Blue Room. How did he come to "understand" this? Who told
 >him this was the case - it couldn't have been a high military
 >source such as Philip Corso, could it?

Your above remarks must be addressed to someone else, as I never
said, implied, or insinuated any such thing. Again, will you be
the gentleman and admit as much? As for throwing Corso at me,
you must surely be aware that I'm arguably Corso's most severe
critic in this country? Or maybe not.

 >Could it be that he "understood" this was the case because he
 >had heard a popular rumour to that effect?

Apart from the point that I never once said Goldwater
"understood" anything about anything, your answer is "of
course!" Although it's just as likely that he understood this
was the case from any number of more viable sources and
informants, not to mention constituents.

 >These are questions that need answering; "it was rumoured" and
 >"he understood" don't amount to much. I understand that the
 >rumour concerning a captured spaceship concealed at Wright-
 >Patterson AFB has similarities to the plot of a science fiction
 >novel "The Fortec Conspiracy" by RM Garvin and EG Addeo,
 >published in 1966, that was responsible for a wave of rumours at
 >the time. Parallels can be drawn here with the "angels of Mons"
 >where fiction was taken as fact when repeated as rumour.
 >

I could've sworn that it was you who introduced "rumored" re Goldwater's
remarks, not me. And what, pray God's name in hell, does the "angel of Mons"
have to do with _anything_ Goldwater might have said about being denied
access to physical rooms and files to which he sought access?

 >The Goldwater story sounds like an example of a "contemporary
 >legend" referred to by the folklorist Jan Brunvand as "the
 >Secret Truth" - a cosmic secret accidentally revealed by a
 >powerful politician or military leader As Brunvand said, "I
 >expect that I'll get some angry mail for suggesting that this
 >might be an area of modern legend"... I know how he feels!

Dave, you're grasping at straws here. See below. In parenthesis,
would it interest you to know that I once asked Brunvand if ufo
abduction accounts fell into the realm of urban legends, and he
responded that they didn't?

 >To give this a British perspective, numerous attempts have been
 >made to gain entry to the UK's Blue Room - RAF Rudloe Manor in
 >Wiltshire by those who "understood" that the MOD are concealing
 >UFO secrets in the underground chamber beneath the station.

 >Author Tim Good even got himself arrested whilst prowling around
 >the perimeter during the 1980s. What did he expect, a guided
 >tour? No doubt if a curious Member of Parliament asked for
 >direct access to the station on a UFO agenda he or she might get
 >the same answer that Goldwater got from Le May.

Goldwater and Good are not one and the same, however crude or
rude the analogy or comparison. Good is a concert violinist and
UFO researcher. Goldwater was a United States senator and
presidential candidate. We're talking oranges and apples here.
Large oranges and small apples, at that.

 >Does that in itself prove the UK Government are hiding a crashed
 >saucer or does it simply mean that _all_ Governments -
 >particularly during periods of war and international tension -
 >are paranoid about who they allow into their most sensitive
 >military installations, even MPs and Senators?

Did I ever say or suggest that it did? Again, I think you've confused me
with someone else.


All the best,

Dennis Stacy










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              Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 19:17:56 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:05:38 -0400
Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Mortellaro


 >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:04:11 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'!


 >>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:22:24 -0400
 >>From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
 >>Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'!
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:55:24 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'!
 >>>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>>Truth be known, Luis, I do not know if that which I perceive I've
 >>>experienced really happened. And I am the first to admit to this
 >>>fact. I say only that the UFO abduction phenomena is the only one
 >>>which best explains what I've experienced. Which is why I almost
 >>>always use the word, "perceived" experiences.

 >>>And I believe that skeptics are of value to the conundrum. I do
 >>>not believe that skeptibunkers are of any value, even to
 >>>themselves. And I define a skeptibunker as one who cannot admit
 >>>even to the possibilty of alien intervention. One who will cop to
 >>>any and all excuses, even unreasonable ones, to attempt to
 >>>explain it. Such is culpable ignorence.

 >><snip>

 >>>PS: I choose not to be believed, but rather for people to believe
 >>>the possibility. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 >>I just wanted to say that the above was well-said and worth a
 >>rereading, especially by "extremist members" of opposing sides
 >>of this Mystery.

 >Hi Ron,

 >Gee, I guess that makes those of us who have had undeniable and
 >close-up real-World UFO abduction experiences "extremists" now.
 >How convenient for those who deny out of hand, and without any
 >formal investigation, that these things ever happen at all. This
 >is why when Wendy and I were discussing which abduction cases
 >lend themselves best to being investigated, I suggested
 >concentrating on cases where there was a report of a _direct_
 >and clear contact with a UFO and UFO occupants. Jim, and others
 >like him, who "think" they "may be" abductees (that have had
 >experiences that the participants themselves are unsure of)
 >should _not_ be put into the same category as the types of cases
 >I have mentioned above. As I said to Wendy, many who identify
 >themselves as "abductees" are _not_ "abductees". And as such,
 >they are not representative cases of the nuts and bolts type of
 >"events/phenomena" that many others are reporting... and that
 >they are _sure_ of.

Dear John, List, Errol,

John, John, John... you are quite mistaken. Your interpretation
of what I wrote is comploetely off base. Read (i.e., look)...
and learn, as some entity told me (as well as you, I recall).

This is the straight poop, John... in a manner of speaking of
course. I do not "think" I was abducted. After all the posts on
AIC, you are the first person who should understand that. And
remember. No, I do not think I was abducted, I "know" I was
abducted.

But on the level of my memory which is as real as my little
puppy, Pepe is pooping on my Mexican tile floor. Just a moment
whilst I let him know who is boss around here ...

OK, now he knows he's the boss.

On the level of memory, there is no doubt of the reality of my
experiences. What you failed to parse, to read, in my posts, is
that I also said that from my intellectual side, the one which
is not dominant even though my education is as an engineer. I
hold two degrees in Electronic engineering. That side of me
says, "This cannot possibly be. Scientifically, physically, it
just cannot be. So I am locked in a conundrum of wills.

However, I also wrote that I am 98 percent certain that what I
perceived to have happened, happened. And the remaining
percent is my skeptical, educational indoctrination. In my
book, you will see that there are others who share my poinbt
of view.

 >Cases such as Mortellaro's are the ones that the psychologists
 >need to look at. For those of us who are trying to get a formal
 >investigation into events that we are _sure_of_, self-diagnosed
 >cases such as Mr. Mortellaro's only serve to further cloud the
 >issue and in the long run, provide encouragement and fodder for
 >those who wish to dismiss _all_ abduction reports.

Ah, poor baby, you forgot that I had several meetings with Budd.
And that I have seen pshychiatrists and psychologists. And that
I have told this forum the results. I really believe that what
happened happened. But I also know, as do you because we've all
read it right here on UpDates, that you too, understand that
there is that possibility that it may be some other phenomena.

Did I get that right? I shall have to go back into my files to
look it up here and on AIC, without of course, sharing any
personal or confidential information.

 >Because one or even one hundred others tell you that they "think"
 >they "might be" an abductee, but they are not sure, does not take
 >away one iota from the ones who _are_sure_. As in individuals who
 >have had real time/real world _events_ happen to them that are
 >worthy of further study. An admission such as the one Mortellaro
 >offers also does not make those of us (who are certain about what
 >has happened to us) "extremists" either. I resent having what
 >happened to me and many others compared to the "may-be, may be not"
 >nebulous crap that many self-diagnosed/self-proclaimed "abductees"
 >report.

Utter nonesense. I am certain. But of my memories, not of the
absolute truth of what happened. And if you tell us that you are
so certain that the phenom is real based only on your own
memory, I caution you. On that path lies danger. Because your
perceptions may be faulty. No one may be certain of this sort of
phenomena, "absolutely" certain. To rely solely on my vivid
memories without questioning the possibility of some other
reason, is in the opinion of this dude, unreasonable.

 >Although Jim's confession is honest it should not be used as an

It ain't no confession. It's a fact. And I am not self
diagnosed. That's a fact. And the marks on my arm and leg,
that's a fact. And the goddamned stinking pain and terror, those
are facts. Don't anyone dare to minimize or turn around my
meaning. Not even you. Anyway, read the book.

 >excuse to lump it in with the reports of those us who are sure
 >of what we are reporting and about what has happened to us. To
 >label us as "extremists" because we _are_certain_ about the
 >facts/details of what we are reporting is unfair. Because 'some'
 >may be "unsure", doesn't mean that we _all_ are.

 >And it doesn't make us, (those of us who are confident we know
 >what has happened to us) "extremists" either. I resent being
 >labelled that way. I am reporting something I _know_ happened.

 >As an abductee who _is_sure,_ I'd just like to say, Thanx for
 >all your 'help' Jim. For someone who isn't sure about what may
 >or may not have happened to them, you seem to have a lot to say
 >on the subject. Speaking for those of us who have had very real,
 >terrifying and _undeniable_ experiences, (that we are sure of,)
 >guys like you make it all the harder for us to get the publics'
 >_serious_ consideration. On that level, you hurt our public case
 >much more than you help. "Unsure" people such as yourself only
 >serve to muddy already murky waters almost beyond hope for the
 >rest of us who _are_ certain, and who report on _actual_
 >events. And not our own "interpretations" (speculations) of
 >dreams and nebulous night-time activities we are not even sure
 >of. You and your alleged "case" is not _representative_ of what
 >is a very real and life disrupting phenomenon for many others
 >world-wide. You do the rest of us who report factual events that
 >we had to live through (and whose memories we have to live with)
 >a grave disservice.

Horse hockey, John.

 >To Ron and anyone else who may wish to learn more about UFO
 >abduction cases (where the participant is reporting on actual
 >events that they are _sure_ of,) I highly recommend that you
 >speak to people like Katharina Wilson, Debbie 'Jordan' Kauble,
 >Russ Hudson, Travis Walton, Charlie Hickson, or even to myself.
 >We may not know 'who' or 'what' is perpetrating these
 >kidnappings or even for what purpose, but unlike "abductees"
 >like Mortellaro, at least we are _sure_ of the details of the
 >events that we are reporting.

 >"Docca":

 >Your misrepresentation of UFO abduction is a big part of the
 >reason why I'm _always_ on your case. Guys like you negate the
 >real and frightening experiences of a great many honest and
 >credible people. Abductees like the ones that participated in
 >the M.I.T. Conference and in other public venues. People that
 >have worked hard for years to get the serious consideration of
 >the public at large. Man, if you have any doubt about the harm
 >you do, just listen to Ron's comment (regarding anyone who is
 >certain about what is happening to them) that they are
 >"extremists."

Balderdash. I negate NOTHING except the logic and reason which
was instilled in me during kmy education as an engineer and
scientist. And I don't blame mainstream science in the least,
nor do I assign blame to genuine skeptics, for looking for
science to explain this phenom. Anything else is ignorent. John,
think a moment. Whether science is afraid or just doing their
job! There is the prime directive of science. Prove it.

Everything I ever learned in schools was that. Prove it. And I can't
prove what's inside my head. Neither may you. Yeah, it's real all
right. But it makes no sense whatever in the paradigm we've been
given to learn and believe. Got it now?

 >The confusion that self-diagnosed "abductees" such as yourself
 >create for the rest of us; the doubt that it casts on all the
 >others who _are sure_; is precisely why your "handshake of
 >friendship" can hang in space till hell freezes over. If you are
 >so "unsure" of what you are talking about, lurking and studying
 >the reports of those who are sure, may be a better way for you
 >to spend your spare time. It'd be much less of a pain-in-the-ass
 >for guys like me who are reporting actual events. :)

You know nothing of who, or when, the diagnosis was made. And I
shall raise your self diagnosis one level higher. I trust my
memory much much better than had I allowed Budd to regress me.
At least now I am CERTAIN. Certain that it was real. But
uncertain as to the absolute truth. You got absolute truth? Then
you are not being honest. Not with yourself or this list.

 >I don't know, how would you relate to someone who comes on the
 >List, and talks a blue streak about something they are not even
 >sure happened? If you're out to prove that some people are so
 >gullible that they convince themselves to believe they are being
 >abducted by aliens (and tell others about it) without
 >_substantial_ reason to do so, then you've made your point. As
 >it reflects on the cases of those who have had actual
 >experiences, well it simply doesn't. You and many others like
 >you are a category all unto yourselves. And one that has nothing
 >to do with what is happening to, and being reported, by many
 >others world-wide.

Utter nonesense again.

Well, folks. Pepe le Pew (a French Bulldog) should have been
named Peepee Le Poop for all he's given our new home. But he's a
peach and Rosie and I love him.

Anyone got suggestions as to how to housebreak this little one?
I am open. God he's a pooper and a pisher.


Love to all,

Jim











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                       Re: Beware New Scam! - Furlotte

From: David Furlotte <furry@nobelmed.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:55:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:11:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Beware New Scam! - Furlotte


 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Beware New Scam!
 >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:14:25 -0400

 >>Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:35:39 -0400
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Beware New Scam!
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>I received the following in my email. Note the similarity to
 >>previous scam from Nigeria.

 ><scam continues after my message>

 >I've gotten two of these, one allegedly from the son of the
 >ex-butcher of Zaire, Joseph Mobuto, and one from South Africa.
 >What amazed me is that both messages made perfectly clear that
 >the money they spoke of was illegally earned! Is this some kind
 >of FBI ploy?

Okay, here is exactly how this particular scam works and the FBI
has no part in this other than their fraud division is probably
on the trail of these scamsters.

What they do is prey on the recipient's greed. i.e. You stand to
get millions of dollars in your hands for simply being a nice
guy or gal and helping (insert idiot name here) get some money
out of the country. (The part of it being illegal money is
designed to keep you from going to the authorities about it.)

Bottom line is when you start nibbling at the bait, you find out
that there are some "minor costs" that you will have to foot in
order to get the money transferred into your account. These
costs will be with a "third party", (some bogus company) that
will set up the necessary paperwork, etc. The sum they usually
work with is about $500.00. (And what is a paltry $500.00 when
it means you will get to receive millions, right?) But for those
who bite at that little tidbit, the plot THICKENS. Suddenly, you
will find that someone screwed up or some official somewhere got
involved but with a little "bribe money" of around $1,000.00,
you are assured that the millions will be in your account by the
next business day.

(Where it gets you most is when you've given up some of your
money, you have the nasty choice of being faced with CHASING the
money you've already given them. In otherwords, "I've given them
$500.00 already, do you want me to just walk away from that?"
The sad answer is, "Yes. Do not walk away, run, because the ONLY
alternative is to lose MORE money." There is absolutely no
possibility of getting the millions of dollars, (it doesn't
exist) and if you try to catch these guys and recover your
money, they will vanish like smoke.

I do hope this clears up the scam and that anyone on the list
who receives one of these things and even is thinking about it,
stops right now.

Dave (Furry) Furlotte









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                                 'Footfall'

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 10:38:28 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:18:45 -0400
Subject: 'Footfall'


Something that you guys and gals might find interesting. This
was posted on the Larry Niven Mailing list.


This is true. Larry Niven has corroborated some of it.

-----

From: larryniven-l-admin@larryniven-l.org
[mailto:larryniven-l-admin@larryniven-l.org]On Behalf Of Derek Glidden
Sent: 09 October 2001 22:29
To: larryniven-l@larryniven-l.org
Subject: [Larryniven-l] Footfall and the Cold War



I actually brought up this question a couple of years ago on
this list and have been lurking most of the time since then.  I
figured now might be a good time to bring it up again and see if
any new data can be turned up.

(It's also been a couple years since I read Footfall, so I've
forgotten some of the details, but you can fill in the blanks.)

In Footfall there's a group of SciFi authors - all clearly based
on real SciFi authors - gathered together as a sort of "Think
Tank Strike Team" to come up with ideas to fight the aliens that
might have sounded too pie-in-the-sky for the "real" military to
think up.  Being "hard" SciFi authors, the assumption was that
these people were used to thinking up pie-in-the-sky ideas with
a firm grounding in science fact so perhaps they would come up
with some interesting new ideas that could actually be
implemented to help prevent the impending invasion.

In itself, it's an interesting side-story that adds some to the book,
but nothing you'd think too special.

But...

Soon after the last time I read Footfall a friend of mine called
me to ask if I had seen a TV show he'd just watched about the
Cold War where few/several SciFi authors had been interviewed -
Niven and/or Pournelle in particular - where they had stated
they had been part of a government "think tank" to come up with
pie-in-the-sky but scientifically valid weapon systems to
announce as components of Star Wars/SDI.

Oh but it gets better.

The U.S. Government would keep up all pretence of actually
developing and building these systems, but the reality of the
situation was that at least this aspect of Star Wars/SDI was a
smokescreen designed to trick the Soviets into keeping up with
an unrealistic arms race and spend so much money on military
R&D, trying to keep up with these futuristic weapons and defence
systems, that their economy would collapse.  Very few people in
the U.S. Government (or anywhere for that matter) had any idea
that the projects they were working on had little hope of
success, other than making the Russians spend more and more
money.

Of course, we know what ultimately happened to the Russian government
and economy.  Supposedly a Russian military type was actually quoted in
the show saying something like "If we hadn't had to spend all the money
keeping up with Star Wars, the Soviet Union might not have collapsed."

One of the tantalizing details is that Sir A.C. Clarke
reportedly walked out of one of the meetings with a statement
along the lines that it was horrendously immoral and unethical
for the group to use their skills to attempt to corrupt a
foreign government and overthrow its economy - effectively
trying to induce depression the likes of which the US
encountered in the 1930's - and cause the inevitable associated
human suffering. Supposedly Heinlein (another member of this
super-secret cabal) was so pissed off at Clarke's attitude
towards "The Communist Threat" that it caused a huge rift in
their relationship.  (Something to the effect of "Heinlein never
spoke to Clarke again.")  A nice correlation to this detail is
that the "Clarke" character (character name was Clarke's first
wife's maiden name) in Footfall was invited but unavailable [at
a con?] to become part of the SciFi cabal in the book.

Normally I would discard this as Urban Legend, "Friend of a
Friend" type of thing, except that it's not a "friend of a
friend heard about this guy" story, but a friend of *mine*
calling *me* on the phone to talk about the TV show *he* saw on
TV a couple of days ago and ask me if I'd ever heard anything
about it since he knew I was a big Niven fan.  And he's not the
type to make this sort of thing up - in fact, if I could find
any more information about it, he'd love to hear it as much as I
would.

What makes it more appealing is that the side-story in
"Footfall" strikes me as  exactly the type of subtle prank that
some intelligent Sci Fi author might pull when they've been told
"This is super secret, you are absolutely NOT allowed to mention
this to anyone!" - I *didn't* tell anyone!  That story's just
fiction don't you know, snort, chuckle!

Of course, it could just as easily be the base from which the
Urban Legend of the Cold War SciFi Cabal described above was
actually derived. Chicken, egg.  Egg, chicken.

Did anyone else actually see that show?  (Was it the "Cold War"
CNN special?)  Has anyone else heard this story?  Can anyone
shed any more light on the facts?  Is there any hope of possibly
even getting Larry to make a comment about the situation?

--

    In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                         Sean Jones
               http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/







     Search for other documents from or mentioning: larryniven-l-admin |





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   Oct > Oct 27

                 Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clarke

From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:43:06 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:20:50 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clarke


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed
 >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:41:00 -0500

 >>From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed
 >>Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 07:55:29 +0100

 >>As for my comments in 'The Observer', you obviously aren't a
 >>reader of the tabloid Daily Star. A couple of weeks ago that
 >>newspaper quoted a "Dr David Clarke" to the effect that the
 >>"missing" Rendlesham documents "constitute the best evidence
 >>that aliens have landed in Britain."

 >>I think that is what you would call a "straw man."

 >No, I would call that an evasion of the issues I raised. I do
 >sympathize, though, with you and all others, including the
 >undersigned, who have been misquoted in press accounts and had
 >our views turned exactly on their heads. A sadly common
 >experience.


Hi Jerry,

It's not "evasion" at all, I stand by all the comments I made to the
Observer, but there is a difference between quotes made and
quotes used. That was the choice of Paul Harris and the
Observer sub-editors, not mine.

My point is that you were quick to jump on the bandwagon
and use the Observer story as a blunt instrument and to
back up your prejudice that I'm some kind of condescending
debunker out to squelsh your pet subject. This is the sort of
polarisation and  knee-jerk reaction against perceived ideological
opponents that this subject must leave behind if it deserves to
be "taken seriously."

What I was actually quoted as saying was:

 >'This was a time of great paranoia and fear. The Government took
 >a decision to throw a blanket over the UFO scare and say as
 >little as possible about it,' said Clarke.
 >'There certainly was a cover-up, but what was being covered up
 >was Cold War paranoia and our fears over our radar system. It
 >was nothing to do with aliens.'

If Jerry wishes to take those quotes as "condescending" or
"intellectually immodest" then I'm tempted to say this reveals
more about him than it does about me. My comments are based upon
_fact_ garnered from the close study over the past two years of
several thousand pages of MOD files - both at the PRO and
currently "closed."  If one cannot make an informed comment on
that basis then what is the point of doing research at all?

My standpoint is no different, in fact I would say it is more
moderate, than anything any other social historian, for example
Dr Bob Bartholomew (whose work I know Jerry is familiar
with) might have said if asked for an opinion on the MOD
documents. I'd be surprised if anyone with any knowledge
of the their content and the historical context within which
they were created could honestly say anything different.

What the Observer chose _not_ to use were my comments when asked
if I agreed with the MOD conclusions and whether I agreed that
_all_ UFOs could be explained as hoaxes, mass hysteria etc. My
response was that I did not accept that was the case and that
one case reported in the DSI/JTIC Report - the sightings by the
Test Pilots at Farnborough in Aug/Sept 1950 - remains completely
baffling from my point of view.

Having recently interviewed two of the test pilots who were
involved in the Farnborough sightings I'm impressed to find
their accounts of what they saw remain as sharp and crystal
clear as when they were reported to the MOD in 1950. If they saw
what they say they saw then I cannot propose any "rational"
explanation, neither would I attempt to propose one. In these
circumstances- and my level of evidence and the quality of
eyewitness testimony is deliberately set very high - it is time
to accept there _are_ aerial phenomena, not necessarily ET in
origin, that lie outside our current scientific understanding.

Adding a caveat here, I would point out that these guys don't
necessarily _buy_ the ET idea themselves, but they are convinced
their evidence was ignored and suppressed by the MOD and I have
to agree that is what the _evidence_ suggests. They had not seen
the MOD report conclusions until I provided a copy, 50 years
after they were interviewed by Scientific Intelligence.

I'm happy to take part in debate if it is based upon the
discussion of informed opinion and fact. That was why we
published the MOD study - free to all - on the net in the first
place. It's sad to see discussion of these important historical
documents side-tracked by polemics, name calling and prejudice.
If I'm guilty of any of those things my apologies; but I will
not apologise for the right to hold an informed opinion.

Let's face it - this List would be a pretty dull place if we all
agreed with each other.

All the best

Dave Clarke










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                       Re: Beware New Scam! - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:04:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:22:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Beware New Scam! - Maccabee


 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Beware New Scam!
 >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:14:25 -0400


 >>Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:35:39 -0400
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Beware New Scam!
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>I received the following in my email. Note the similarity to
 >>previous scam from Nigeria.

 >I've gotten two of these, one allegedly from the son of the
 >ex-butcher of Zaire, Joseph Mobuto, and one from South Africa.
 >What amazed me is that both messages made perfectly clear that
 >the money they spoke of was illegally earned! Is this some kind
 >of FBI ploy?

Thanks for the info. We should do exactly the opposite of what
the scam requests, namely confidentiality, and spread it widely!









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               Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Campagna

From: Palmiro Campagna <maxcam@storm.ca>
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:52:24 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:24:18 -0400
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Campagna


 >From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 08:14:23 +0100

The notation that the British study was demanded by Sir Henry
Tizard is most interesting. In my book, The UFO Files: The
Canadian Connection Exposed, I noted that Sir Henry Tizard was
present at a meeting in Montreal, Canada, June 1 1951, with Dr.
Omond Solandt, of the Canadian Defence Research Board. Also
present were two CIA representatives. Subject of the meeting was
MKULTRA, the CIA foray into mind control. This information was
disclosed by Dr. Solandt, when he gave his deposition in the
eighties, to the American investigation into the MKULTRA
activities that had been launched as part of a lawsuit by a
number of MKULTRA's victims.

Solandt of course had a major connection to the UFO scene as
well. A declassified file reproduced in the UFO Files states:

"DSI [Directorate Scientific Intelligence] advised Secretary JIC
[Joint Intelligence Council] on 6th April 1950 that the Minister
[of Canada's Department of National Defence] had requested CDRB
[Chairman Defence Research Board Dr. Solandt] to seek the
co-operation of the Services in reporting on the occurrences or
alleged occurrences of Flying Saucers passing over Canada. He
requested that this be discussed at the next meeting of the
JIC." [A copy is also available at www.storm.ca/~maxcam]

This is the earliest recorded instance of Canadian Government
UFO interest I have been able to find and it may tie in with
this latest British report. There is no record of the results of
these early Canadian investigations. In 1952, Solandt started
Project Second Storey, a group bent on debunking the UFO
subject. Note also that Solandt was receiving updates on UFO
reports from the CIA, such as report #00-W-25291 titled Military
Unconventional Aircraft.

September 1950 is also when Wilbert Smith had his meeting with
Dr. Robert Sarbacher. Smith was well known to Solandt. Solandt
supported Smith's research into the realm of UFOology. The
meeting between Smith and Sarbacher was set up by the DRB
liaison staff at the Canadian Embassy in Washington.

With this latest discovery of the British report, it is obvious
there is yet more to be uncovered.

Palmiro Campagna Author
The UFO Files: The Canadian Connection Exposed 1997.







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             'Strange Days... Indeed' Tonight - DR. Steven Greer

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:51:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:51:51 -0400
Subject: 'Strange Days... Indeed' Tonight - DR. Steven Greer

Steven Greer, George Filer and Graham Bethune [the latter two
are 'Disclosure Witnesses'] will be in the CFRB studios tonight.

The program starts at 22:00 Eastern Daylight Time and can
be heard on CFRB 1010 AM in the Toronto area and live via
the Web at www.cfrb.com either via Windows Media Player [seats
fill quiickly or via SurferNet [link at the site for download].

There will also be, I'm certain, some dissenting voices contributing,
via the phones.

Should you wish to talk either to the witnesses or to Dr. Greer,
the on-air numbers are 416-872-1010 1-800-561-CFRB or *TALK [Cell].

Scott & look forward to tonight - its the start of SDI's fourth
year.

Errol Bruce-Knapp








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   Oct > Oct 28

                  Interview With New Pascagoula '73 Witness

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:55:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 07:19:11 -0500
Subject: Interview With New Pascagoula '73 Witness


Subject: discussion with Mike Cataldo, witness to Pascagoula UFO

On October 21, 2001, Natalie Chambers of the Associated Press
reported that a new witness to a legendary 1973 UFO incident has
recently surfaced. Chambers identified this individual as Mike
Cataldo, a retired Navy chief petty officer.

I was interested in more general details of this account, and
specifically the reference to "a report" Cataldo made with a
supervisor. This morning I conducted a YAHOO PEOPLE SEARCH for
the name Mike Cataldo and found his telephone number listed for
his residence at Marker Rd. in Rotonda West, FL.

Cataldo came to the phone and was surprised at my call, stating
that I was the first person to ever contact him about this UFO
sighting from 1973. He explained that he had been in touch with
Associated Press reporter Natalie Chambers, but only after
calling a Pascagoula, Mississippi newspaper a month ago. When
calling the newspaper, he asked to talk with an old-timer
employee at the paper, someone that might remember the
Hickson/Parker abduction. Cataldo said that when he talked with
Natalie Chambers, she made reference to the book entitled 'UFO
in Pascagoula.' Being unaware of this book, Cataldo was shocked,
saying "you gotta be kidding me!" to the reporter.

He went on to excitedly relate the story as it happened back in
1973.

"The story is very true," he assured while recounting the event.
"We (Cataldo, Ted Peralta and Mack Hanna) left the shipyard and
rode in Ted's Volkswagen to Hwy. 90, traveling west towards
Buloxi, Mississippi. It was not even dusk yet, there was still
some daylight to see by.

"When we first saw this thing through the windshield we thought
it was a shooting star, going from right to left, but then it
came down into a marshy, tree-lined area and hovered there for
about 30-seconds. It was spinning and had blinking lights on the
top of it all around its edge, all the way around it in a
circle. These were blinking lights arranged on it just like you
would tape lights to the side of a cake pan."

Cataldo affirmed that there was a definite structure to be seen,
not just blinking lights.

"This thing was like a whitish-gray colored sailor hat, or a
tambourine, and it was less than half a mile away and looked as
big as any big American airliner I've ever seen. And then it
just shot away, almost like it was just suddenly gone."

Cataldo said that shortly after the sighting he parted company
with Ted Peralta and Mack Hanna and changed cars. Then while
enroute to Ocean Springs as darkness was setting in, he saw the
same object a second time at about the same distance away,
watching it for another 45 seconds to one minute before it again
shot off in the same manner as before.

Mike Cataldo said that there were other motorists in the area
during each episode and that some of them had slowed down to look
at the ufo.

"We were the only ones on the road to stop and look at it
though," he said.

During this time, Cataldo said he never knew anything about the
Hickson/Parker claim. He went home, telling his wife about it.
Cataldo humorously recalled how his wife said he was
hyperventilating with excitement. He went on to liken the anxiety
and strangeness of the situation to a large snake sighting he had
years earlier in 1963, "Some things you see in your lifetime that
you just don't ever forget," he said.

The next day he returned to the site with Ted and Mack and they
parked their car at the shipyard area, talking about the
sighting from the previous day. They discussed what should be
done about it and if they should report what they saw.

Cataldo said that he felt the sighting should be reported and he
approached a man by the name of Nick, his division officer. He
then approached the executive commander, Lt. Commander Heath and
issued him a verbal report on the sighting. He said that to his
knowledge, Heath did not prepare a written report concerning
what was told to him.

"Not one of them took me seriously," he complained, "and I never
heard another thing about it. Nobody ever asked about it again.

"I never knew of the Hickson/Parker abduction until days later.
It happened on Thursday and it was not until the following
Sunday that I saw the headline in the morning paper about two
men taken aboard a Flying Saucer, I'm telling you I about died."

The next morning, Oct. 15, Cataldo said that he talked the
situation over with his wife and again decided that it would be
important to report the UFO sighting. At that time he placed a
phone call to a an assistant public relations officer Keesler
AFB. The female taking his call took the information, but
Cataldo said that once again nothing resulted from his
advisement.

"I have never talked to the fella involved, Charles Hickson, and
I've never discussed this case or met with them at all, I never
knew them and I never saw anything and had no involvement with
what they said," Cataldo assured, "and I've never seen a UFO
since then, not at all. Not even before then. Was it real?
You're damn right it was real. I can't say anything about they
did or were involved in. I don't even know if what I saw matches
what they saw, but I know what I saw and where I was at. But
where we saw the thing going across the sky through our
windshield is basically the area where Hickson and Parker said
they were taken aboard. The time frame of our sighting might
have been around 6:00, but I can't recall for certain."

Cataldo said that two weeks after the sighting he left for
California on temporary duty. While there, he saw Hickson on the
Dick Cavette television show.

"I just couldn't believe it, here I was seeing this guy," he
said.

Mike Cataldo explained that he has not seen Ted Peralta for 21
years, but thinks he could possibly be in the San Diego,
California area. Likewise he has not seen Mack Hanna for about
23 or more years and suspects that he could also be located in
either Kentucky or Logan, West Virginia. In the intervening
years, Cataldo said that he has frequently told told his family
(wife, 2 sons and relatives) about the sighting.

Cataldo said that aside from this present call, he has not been
contacted by anyone regarding this except for his discussion
with reporter Natalie Chambers. He said that he has not seen the
newspaper article and would like to read it. He also said that
he received a message from a friend telling him that Paul Harvey
mentioned the story on his radio program yesterday, and wishes
he could have heard it.

I thanked Mike Cataldo for talking with me and told him that I
would be happy to E-mail him the text of the newspaper article
by Chambers. Although it is a disappointment to know that his
claims were probably not documented in a written report by his
supervisor, further interviews with Hanna and Peralta would
still be valuable to provide some verification of this alleged
sighting. A YAHOO PEOPLE SEARCH was conducted for their names in
the specified locations resulting in many returns and as of this
writing some of the names have already been contacted but thus
far with no success in finding the right individuals.


Filed,

October 27, 2001
Kenny Young







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                   UFO & ETs Haunt Chile Construction Site

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:20:47 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 07:21:47 -0500
Subject: UFO & ETs Haunt Chile Construction Site


UFO and ETs Haunt Construction Site in Chile
 From Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center
ufomiami@prodigy.net
10-27-1


Investigation conducted by Calama UFO Center on October 18,
2001, 02:30 A.M.

As a result of our investigations in the southern sector of the
city of Calama, Chile, we have contacted a lone watchman that
has been guarding a construction site for 6 months. His job
consists of safekeeping a building under construction, as well
as building materials and equipment.

This gentleman of 51 years of age, father of 8 children and
native of this city, described an event involving a possible
UFO, alien entities and paranormal activity on the night of
October 14, 2001.

CONTACTEE�S TESTIMONY:

Ever since I started working here, I have noticed strange sounds
at night. Some of my co-workers have mentioned hearing them as
well. It is almost normal to hear them. The sounds are similar
to hearing children running and playing around. They usually
come from outside where the stockpiles of wood and construction
equipment are, as if they were playing around with the
equipment. However, the possibility of children playing outside
at 4:AM in the morning is at the least highly unlikely.

Nevertheless, our job is to watch and safeguard the property;
therefore, we are required to go out and check for anything out
of the ordinary. I am absolutely positive that I was alone. My
only companion is an old TV set and a pregnant stray dog that I
feed and have learned to love as my own pet. Soon, she will have
puppies.

Although I am used to hear strange noises, that night on October
14 something weird happened to me. It was about 2 in the
morning. I was watching TV. Suddenly, my dog started barking and
ran towards the back patio, so I lowered the volume to listen to
what was going on. I was expecting that someone would be running
around on top of the piles of lumber, but this time the noise
was stronger, so I immediately reacted thinking that somebody
could have been trying to steal the material. I picked up my
flashlight and ran towards the door.

As expected, the dog was ready to go outside as she was barking
and waiting for me to open the door. She ran as soon as I opened
the door, but suddenly, she bounced right back after she only
ran a few feet away. Apparently, something scared her. She
looked and sounded terrified. I have never seen her moaning and
shivering the way she did that time. Then I saw it. I saw a
bright oval shaped object floating around near the 55-gallon
drums. The object was about 35 feet away from me.

I really do not know what happen to me, I was simply paralyzed.
I had my flashlight in my hand, but I was not able raise it to
illuminate this object. It was like a mental blackout. The only
thing that I had in mind was the intense cold and fear that I
felt. The only parts of my body that I was able to move were my
eyes, as they followed the strange object for about 10 seconds.

The object moved at about 15 MPH. It was not a living being. It
was some kind of small airship. It did not emit air, noise, nor
it left a contrail. The sensation felt in my body during the
moments that I saw it is simply indescribable.

The following day, I heard the noises once again. I was too
scared to go outside. However, I went upstairs but I did not see
anything from the second floor. Later during the week, it
happened again, but this time I called another guard. We both
went outside but, once again, we could not see anything.

A lot of strange things happen at night down here. Sometimes,
the lights turn on and off by themselves, the same with the air
compressors, winches and even motor vehicles. Some security
guards have mentioned strange looking men dressed in gray
roaming around the site. They mention that they are very
elusive. When they try to stop them for questioning or to
provide assistance to them �because they appear to be looking
for something-, they walk or run away and disappear.

We will continue updating this story.

Jaime Ferrer,

Calama UFO Center

Translated by Mario Andrade








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                 Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:49:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 07:23:26 -0500
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed - Clark


 >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:32:05 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed
 >>Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:32:20 -0500

 >>>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:00:06 +0100
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed

 >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed
 >>>>Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:08:41 -0500

 >No, I'd rather you didn't say anything at all and just got on
 >with your often interesting posts. If I was actually your
 >friend, I would not need to be reminded of the fact in every
 >message you post on this List. Everybody else who participates
 >here manages to make their points without constantly pointing
 >out that they are such friendly chaps.

 >I find it an irritating affectation which does actually seem
 >quite condescending - the implication seems to be that we are
 >supposed to be in some way impressed or grateful that we have
 >been acknowledged as friends of the great Jerry Clark.

 >Like most irritation affectations, it is quite easy to cure.
 >Just don't do it - it's not at all difficult, old chum.

Sorry to have so irritated you, my friend.


Jerry ("You Can Call Me Yank") Clark











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                Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clarke

From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 19:42:53 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 07:24:54 -0500
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clarke


 >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:36:43 -0500
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>

 >>From: Dave Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >>Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 19:36:44 +0100

 >>Is that what you _really_ believe?

 >Dave,

 >No, I never said or suggested that it did, or that I believed
 >same. I merely said that Goldwater's statement to the effect
 >that he was denied access to the Blue Room was an established
 >fact and a matter of record -- not a mere rumor (or rumour). I'm
 >glad to see that you agree. For your files and the record, where
 >did I say or even remotely suggest that "Le May was trying to
 >conceal bits of a flying saucer"? Those are your words, not
 >mine. Will you be the gentleman and admit as much?

 >>You say that Goldwater "understood that UFO remains" were kept
 >>in the Blue Room. How did he come to "understand" this? Who told
 >>him this was the case - it couldn't have been a high military
 >>source such as Philip Corso, could it?

 >Your above remarks must be addressed to someone else, as I never
 >said, implied, or insinuated any such thing. Again, will you be
 >the gentleman and admit as much? As for throwing Corso at me,
 >you must surely be aware that I'm arguably Corso's most severe
 >critic in this country? Or maybe not.


Hi Dennis,

Of course I'll be a gentleman and admit these weren't your
words, or your views (now you've made those clear) but all I can
say is that I felt your original post was a little ambiguous
about what you felt the Goldwater business amounted to.

As for the angels of Mons and contemporary legend having nothing
to do with current UFO beliefs, we'll just have to agree to
differ... (and that's addressed to the others who have responded
to my post, not to you Dennis!)
All the best,

Dave Clarke









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                   FYI - Reliable Info On 'Nigerian Scam'

From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 17:43:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 07:28:49 -0500
Subject: FYI - Reliable Info On 'Nigerian Scam'


http://home.rica.net/alphae/419coal/

from that site:

"The Nigerian Scam is, according to published reports, the Third
to Fifth largest industry in Nigeria."

Run, do not walk, from anything having to do with it!








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                       Re: Rendlesham Radiation - Hale

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 05:17:07 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 07:31:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Rendlesham Radiation - Hale



David Bolton wrote:

 >From: David Bolton <David@bolton.sol.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:28:09 +0100
 >Subject: Re: Rendlesham Radiation

<snip>

 >Correction - people have _reported_ seeing strange objects - its
 >not the same as people actually seeing strange objects.

Hi,

Certain army base staff witnesses seeing an object on the
ground, close enough to see the symbols on the side of it, is
this seeing a strange object, or did they make it all up?


Roy..








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               Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:52:10 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 07:40:47 -0500
Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Gonzalez


 >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:04:11 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'!

<snip>

 >As I said to Wendy, many who identify
 >themselves as "abductees" are _not_ "abductees". And as such,
 >they are not representative cases of the nuts and bolts type of
 >"events/phenomena" that many others are reporting... and that
 >they are _sure_ of.

 >Cases such as Mortellaro's are the ones that the psychologists
 >need to look at. For those of us who are trying to get a formal
 >investigation into events that we are _sure_of_, self-diagnosed
 >cases such as Mr. Mortellaro's only serve to further cloud the
 >issue and in the long run, provide encouragement and fodder for
 >those who wish to dismiss _all_ abduction reports.

 >Because one or even one hundred others tell you that they "think"
 >they "might be" an abductee, but they are not sure, does not take
 >away one iota from the ones who _are_sure_. As in individuals who
 >have had real time/real world _events_ happen to them that are
 >worthy of further study.

The problem, John, is that the 'nuts and bolts abductees' and
the 'imaginary abductees' do describe the same beings,
procedures, etc. That was the reason why they were bumped
together to begin with! And many abductees do combine both kind
of experiences. Betty Andreasson being the most prominent
example.

To me, it is very simple. We _do_ have examples of "psychic
abductions", when the alleged abductee was seem by another
person in trance or sleep but still in their terrestrial
surroundings, not aboard a UFO. The case of Maureen Puddy was
known since the 70s.

On the other hand, we do_ not_ have the opposite situation,
Linda Cortile notwithstanding.

So, the simplest solution is that "normal abductions" are
just examples of "psychic abductions" not properly
investigated, not the other way around!

Then, as I do not believe in the paranormal, the second
step is simpler: "psychic abductions" are just examples
of wild imagination.

Yes. I _do_ have still to explain some minor difficulties
as body marks, etc. But I am sure they are explainable
in terrestrial terms, giving enough time, funds and
investigations.

<snip>

 >I highly recommend that you
 >speak to people like Katharina Wilson, Debbie 'Jordan' Kauble,
 >Russ Hudson, Travis Walton, Charlie Hickson, or even to myself.

I did try to speak to you :-)). No hard feelings.

The name Russ Hudson eludes me at the moment. Who is he?


Luis R. Gonzlez








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                        Re: Beware New Scam! - Aubeck

From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 14:35:05 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 07:42:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Beware New Scam! - Aubeck


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:35:39 -0400
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:57:32 -0400
 >Subject: Beware New Scam!


 >I received the following in my email. Note the
 >similarity to previous scam from Nigeria.

Hi Bruce,

The letter you received is almost identical to a series of
letters from Nigeria I was translating into Spanish for an
83-year-old businessman in a small village here in Spain. I
didn't realise it was all a scam till the letters became more
threatening. They even invited us to go to Nigeria personally to
receive a cheque with some astronomical sum on it!

$26.5MILLION was exactly the sum in question then
(in 1998).

Chris















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              Re: 'Strange Days... Indeed' Tonight - DR. Steven

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:50:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 07:56:45 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Strange Days... Indeed' Tonight - DR. Steven


EBK wrote:

 >I try not to plug the radio program on the List -

You should Errol. If it wasn't for the fact that I get to talk
to you off-list I wouldn't know who's on either! Maybe a brief
announcement like this one once a week would be alright.

 >... but tonight's program is an exception.

If you ask me they are _all_ exceptional. Because of your most
well informed self and Scott Robbins who is just a 'natural' at
asking the "right" questions at just the right time, SDI is the
best UFO related program to ever hit the airwaves. No BS.

 >There will also be, I'm certain, some dissenting voices
 >contributing, via the phones.

Ahem, is that my cue?  <LOL>

 >Scott & I look forward to tonight - its the start of SDI's
 >fourth year.

My heartiest congratulations, and may you have many more
successful years of informative and thoroughly entertaining
broadcasting before you.

Kudo's to you and Scott! (And ole Dean who slaves away in the
background making sure everything is working properly. :)


Warm regards,

John Velez, Proud to be a part of the SDI 'family.'  ;)

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."







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                Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 12:47:16 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:28:12 -0500
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Rudiak


 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:03:12 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Stacy

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Clark
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:27:56 -0500

<snip>

 >>The story of Goldwater's curious experience is hardly a mere
 >>"rumor."

 >>When The New Yorker profiled him in 1988 (April 25 issue),
 >>Goldwater discussed it openly. He said he had asked his good
 >>friend Air Force Gen. Curtis LeMay if he - Goldwater - could
 >>have access to a "Blue Room" at Wright-Patterson, where
 >>Goldwater understood UFO remains were kept. According to
 >>Goldwater, LeMay gave him "holy hell." He informed Goldwater
 >>that he - Goldwater - did not have the necessary clearances,
 >>and he warned him never to bring up the subject again.

 >>Some rumor. Some reaction to same.

 >Yes, many of us are aware of that incident, albeit, apparently,
 >not Dave Clarke.

 >Do you know if anyone other than Goldwater has ever referred to
 >a "Blue Room" at Wright-Pat? I'm not talking about Hangar 18
 >stories in general here, but the specific reference to a Blue
 >Room.

Better than that, there is a document that mentions a "Blue
Room" at Wright Patterson, though not necessarily _the_ "Blue
Room."

A copy of the document can be found on page 137 of "Beyond
Roswell" by Hesemann and Mantle.

It was found by no less than William Moore in 1981 after a FOIA
inquiry about the Blue Room. It was the one and only document on
the "Blue Room" found. Prior to this, Moore had been told that
they could find no documents on the "Blue Room" and "We must
assume therefore that all records about the project have been
destroyed."

The surviving document is a master archival reference card,
"TITLE: BLUE ROOM (RADAR SCOPE), WRIGHT-PATTERSON AFB, OHIO,
1955"

The classification is "Secret", it concerns "time lapse
photography of aircraft beacon target on radar scope.'

Beneath that it reads "EVALUATION: Perm/Electr/Radar  DATE: 7
Mar 57  RECEIVED FROM: Engineering Div, WPAFB."

So basically this is referencing a movie of a radar screen
during some test. The movie is apparently missing as is
everything else concerning this test.

So what was the test and what connection was there to the "Blue
Room?" For that matter, what was the "Blue Room?"

At this point the documentation ends and Hesemann and Mantle
write that one of Moore's Air Force informants told him it was
an early test in the development of a plane invisible to radar,
utilizing material recovered from the Roswell wreck.

Whether this is true or not, the document does establish that
there was a "Blue Room" of some kind in the 1950's and it was
involved in radar tests of some kind conducted by the
Engineering Division at Wright-Patterson.

David Rudiak






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                          Secrecy News -- 10/23/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 14:59:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:30:52 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/23/01



SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
October 23, 2001


**      RUMSFELD BLASTS LEAKS
**      PENTAGON CLAMPS DOWN ON INFORMATION


RUMSFELD BLASTS LEAKS

Citing media reports last week concerning the deployment of
special operations forces in Afghanistan, Defense Secretary
Donald Rumsfeld yesterday deplored the disclosure of classified
information and discussed the limits of Pentagon cooperation
with the media.

"We cannot and will not provide information that could
jeopardize the success of our efforts to root out and liquidate
the terrorist networks that threaten our people," he said.

"I think that the release by a person in the government who had
access to classified information to the effect that the United
States ... was about to engage in a special operation in
Afghanistan clearly was ... a violation of federal criminal law
and it was something that was totally in disregard for the lives
of the people involved in that operation," he said.

Secretary Rumsfeld did not indicate which federal criminal law was
violated. Presumably he was referring to the Espionage Act,
specifically 18 U.S.C. 793(d), which prohibits disclosure of
"information relating to the national defense" to a person "not entitled
to receive it."

Excerpts from Secretary Rumsfeld's press briefing on classified
information and the media are posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/10/dod102201.html

The story was elaborated by Vernon Loeb and Bradley Graham in the
Washington Post today. See "Rumsfeld Assails Leak on Troops":

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36209-2001Oct22.html


PENTAGON CLAMPS DOWN ON INFORMATION

Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz has called upon Pentagon
employees to minimize disclosure of information to the public and to use
discretion even when talking among themselves.

"It is ... vital that Defense Department employees, as well as persons
in other organizations that support DOD, exercise great caution in
discussing information related to DOD work, regardless of their duties,"
Wolfowitz wrote in an October 18 memo.

"Do not conduct any work-related conversations in common areas, public
places, while commuting, or over unsecured electronic circuits," he
wrote in the memo, which was first reported on October 22 by
InsideDefense.com.

Significantly, Deputy Secretary Wolfowitz did not distinguish sharply
between classified and unclassified information.

"Classified information may be discussed only in authorized spaces and
with persons having a specific need to know and the proper security
clearance. Unclassified information may likewise require protection
because it can often be compiled to reveal sensitive conclusions."

"If in doubt, do not release or discuss official information except with
other DoD personnel," he advised.

Defense Secretary Wolfowitz's memorandum on "Operations Security
Throughout the Department of Defense" is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2001/10/wolfowitz.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@lists.fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:
     subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:
     http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691








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                            US Tax Money At Work

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 15:03:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:37:55 -0500
Subject: US Tax Money At Work


Update For The 'LWB Chronicles' Column of http://www.ufocity.com

Our tax money at work: although Rep. Moran has yet to respond to
my request of Sept. 14, 2001, I have received encouraging words
from the National Archives at College Park, Md. -- to wit:

"September 25, 2001

"Dear Mr. Bryant:

"This is in response to your Freedom of Information Act request
of September 14, which was received in this office on September
25 (our reference number 20342 or NW01-0906).

We have forwarded your request for a document from Entry 411
(Lot File No. 122: Intelligence Advisory Board Agenda 1946-47),
among the Records of Interdepartmental and Intradepartmental
Committees, State Department (Record Group 353), to our
declassification team for review. We will notify you as soon as
the review is complete.

Sincerely,


JOHN H. CLAGETT IV
Archives Specialist
Special Access and FOIA Staff"









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               CCCRN News: Eyewitness Report - 'Beams' Create

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 22:52:48 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:52:58 -0500
Subject: CCCRN News: Eyewitness Report - 'Beams' Create



CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

October 28, 2001

_____________________________


EYEWITNESS REPORT OF LIGHT BEAMS CREATING CROP FORMATION IN HOLLAND

Crop circle researcher Nancy Talbott's incredible new report of
witnessing a crop formation being made by intense beams of white
light in Holland last August is now posted on the web site, with
photos of the formation and an illustration by Andreas Mller
which vividly recreates what Nancy saw:

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/ntcircle01.html

As well as the reports this year of other unusual light
phenomena and other possibly related anomalies being seen in
association with several of the crop formations in Canada, and
formations worldwide over the years, this account single
handedly demonstrates this important aspect of the phenomenon.
The boldness and close proximity of the light beams to the
witnesses implies purpose and awareness, in light of Nancy's
frustration only a very short time before the sighting, of
wanting the phenomenon to 'show itself' in clearer terms...
others, including some of us in the CCCRN network, also had
experiences again this year which perhaps suggested this as
well, as mentioned in previous updates.

Thanks to Nancy and Andreas for their research information,
material and assistance.

____________________________


The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which investigates the crop circle
phenomenon and other possibly related phenomena in Canada,
creating a liason between researchers, farmers, the public, the
media and scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma

CCCRN News is the e-news service of CCCRN, providing the latest
news, reports and updates, sent free to your e-mail.

To subscribe to CCCRN News, send a blank e-mail to:
cccrnnews-subscribe@topica.com

CCCRN News Archive:
http://www.topica.com/lists/cccrnnews/read


CANADIAN CROP CIRCLE RESEARCH NETWORK

Main Office:
202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

Provincial Branches:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/contacts.html

Circle Phenomena in Canada 2001:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/circlescanada01.html

Fields of Dreams Webcast Radio Show:
http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/fieldsofdreams.html


� Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2001









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                  Research Institute Of Anomalous Phenomena

From: Lara Johnstone <bravehrt@concentric.net>
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:57:12 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 09:04:40 -0500
Subject: Research Institute Of Anomalous Phenomena


Research Institute On Anomalous Phenomena, Kharkov, Ukraine

Dear Colleague,

My name is Alexander Beletsky. I am Vice-Director of Research
Institute on Anomalous Phenomena (RIAP) - an independent
scientific- research body, established in Kharkov (Ukraine) ten
years ago. We aim at scientific studies in the fields of the UFO
problem and the SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence)
question. The Institute makes its investigations in close
collaboration with the CIS Academy of Cosmonautics and Russian
Academy of Sciences. Please find here attached (as Appendix I) a
RIAP Information Leaflet describing the Institute's research
programs in some detail.

To inform the international ufological community about the
results of investigations that are conducted by RIAP specialists
and other scientists in the territory of the former Soviet
Union, we started, in 1994, a special periodical: newsletter
RIAP Bulletin (RB). It is the ONLY serious anomalistic
periodical in the Commonwealth of Independent States published
IN ENGLISH. There appear in RB research articles, short
communications, book reviews,letters to the Editor, etc.

RB Vol. 1, Nos. 1-4 - Vol. 7, Nos. 1-2 have been printed and
sent to subscribers. They contain, in particular, the papers
"Post-Soviet Ufology: a View from Inside", by V.V.Rubtsov; "The
"Russian Roswell": a Legend Under Examination", by Y.N.Morozov,
"UFOs as Objects of Study by Terrestrial Physics", by
V.A.Buerakov; "Search for Alien Artifacts on the Moon: A
Justification", by A.V.Arkhipov; "History of State-Directed UFO
Research in the USSR", by the Russian academic UFO expert
Y.V.Platov and Colonel B.A.Sokolov; "The Petrozavodsk
Phenomenon", by L.M.Gindilis & Y.K.Kolpakov; "The Black Ball: a
Supposed Extraterrestrial Artifact", by V.N.Fomenko; "A Second
UFO Landing on the River Mzha", by a group of RIAP scientists,
and others. We have also published the first really
comprehensive survey of anomalous features of the famous
Tunguska explosion ("The Tunguska Meteorite: A Dead-Lock or the
Start of a New Stage of Inquiry?"), written by the leading
Russian specialist in this problem - Nikolay V. Vasilyev, Member
of Academy.

RIAP Bulletin is published four times per year. Subscription
rates: a life-long subscription - $100; 12 issues (three years)
- $50; 8 issues (two years) - $35; 4 issues (one year) - $20.
Airmail postage included. Back issues are still available in
limited quantities ($5 per copy, $75 a whole set - sixteen
issues).

RIAP Bulletin is also produced as a PDF file - that is
immediately sent to subscribers via the Internet. The
"electronic RB" is an exact replica of its printed version. It
can be easily read with the help of a free browser - Adobe
Acrobat Reader.

If you are interested in subscribing to RIAP Bulletin, please
let me know. I and my colleagues would be happy to inform you
about advances and prospects of anomalistic studies in this part
of the world. There will appear in the next RB issues, in
particular, the following papers: "Astroengineers over
Tunguska", by V.K.Zhuravlev; "UFOs: False and Genuine", by
Y.V.Platov; "UFO Landings on the Mzha River: the Investigations
Continue", by V.P.Goloveshko et al., "Examining Possible
Paleovisit Traces", by Y.N.Morozov, and many others.

With all my best wishes and warmest regards, I remain,

Sincerely yours, Alexander V. Beletsky, M.A., Vice-Director, RIAP

================

Appendix I

RESEARCH INSTITUTE ON ANOMALOUS PHENOMENA, Kharkov, Ukraine

The principal trends of researches of the institute in the UFO
field are as follows: creation of an efficient system of
reconstruction of a real anomalous event on the basis of
witnesses' testimonies; formation of a unified CIS UFO data base
(in collaboration with the Expert Group on Anomalous Atmospheric
Phenomena of the Russian Academy of Sciences) and a computer
expert system to identify genuine UFOs (GUFOs); development of
physical models of GUFOs; monitoring of a place of recurrent UFO
landings on the river Mzha, near Kharkov; studies in the hidden
history of Soviet ufology.

In the SETI field, there was realized, under the guidance of
Alexey V. Arkhipov, phase I of the program "Search for Alien
Artifacts on the Moon" (SAAM) and its results have been
presented on the pages of RIAP Bulletin. Besides, we have been
examining some enigmatic finds that can be considered candidate
extraterrestrial artifacts (ancient, or not so ancient). These
are the so-called "Kassimov ball" - a small (diameter some 4.5
cm) black ball of unknown origin, found in Central Russia in
1983 at a depth of 7 meters, in a layer of pure red clay, - and
the remains of a strange object that obviously originated from
space and fell down near Kharkov in 1994 (judging from its
chemical composition, it is neither a meteorite, nor terrestrial
space junk).

The institute pays considerable attention to the problem of the
Tunguska explosion of 1908. We are studying statistical
parameters of the forest fall area, as well as the
biogeochemical elemental and isotopic anomalies and
population-genetic effects, revealed in the area of the
catastrophe. A state-of-the-art collection of research papers on
the Tunguska problem is now under preparation.

The Scientific Council and Advisory Board of the Institute
include such Russian and Ukrainian specialists in the UFO
problem and SETI field as Dr. E.A.Ermilov (specialist in radio
detection of aerial anomalous phenomena), Dr. V.N.Fomenko
(investigator of the famous Vashka find, as well as other
supposed ET artifacts), Y.A.Fomin (doyen of UFO studies in
Russia), Dr. L.M.Gindilis (astronomer and SETI expert), Dr.
Y.V.Platov (Vice-Chairman of the Academic UFO Study Group), Dr.
V.K.Zhuravlev (investigator of the Tunguska explosion), and
others. The Advisory Board comprehends also a group of
well-known Western scientists, scholars and engineers -
V.-J.Ballester Olmos (Spain), Dr. T.E.Bullard (USA), Dr.
R.F.Haines (USA), Dr. A.Meessen (Belgium), et al. Dr. Vladimr V.
Rubtsov, Full Member of the CIS Academy of Cosmonautics and one
of the pioneers of ufological studies in the former USSR, is
Director of RIAP.

Institute mailing address:

RIAP, P.O.Box 4684, 61022 Kharkov-22, Ukraine.

Internet e-mail addresses:

<riap777@yahoo.com>, <tolimak@nettaxi.com>

Website: http://www.geocities.com/riap777/

===========================================================












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   Oct > Oct 29

                            Richard C. Phillips?

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 07:46:05 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 09:06:59 -0500
Subject: Richard C. Phillips?


Hi List,

I'm trying to trace contact details for Richard C. Phillips the
author of 'How The UFOs Work: Fully Explained'.

His (old) e-mail address of <71371,547@compuServe.com> does
not produce any replies or bounce and apparently mail sent to
his address is returned as undeliverable.

If anyone knows the contact details for Richard I would be
grateful if they could pass them on to me, or let Richard know I
am trying to contact him.


Thanks,

John Hayes

webmaster@ufoinfo.com

UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports
and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine plus archives of Filer's
Files and Oz Files.








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   Oct > Oct 30

                     Eras News: Weekly Briefing 10.29.01

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:45:45 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 00:41:13 -0500
Subject: Eras News: Weekly Briefing 10.29.01



ERAS NEWS
The E-News Service of The Eras Project

http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

October 29, 2001

_____________________________


WEEKLY BRIEFING
10.29.01


Mars Odyssey Swings Around the Red Planet
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/odyssey_mars_011023.html

Odyssey's Triumph Puts NASA Back on Track. But Where To?
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/road_ahead_011026.html

'Live From Mars' Webcast on October 30
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/webcast/mars_odyssey/livefrommars.html

Mars Odyssey Success Puts Key Communication Link In Place For 2003 Mars
Rovers http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Oct01/Mars.Squyres.deb.html

Goldin: Pioneering Station Crews Paving the Way For Human Trips To Mars
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/goldin_station_011024.html

Mars Atmospheric Chemistry and Astrobiology (MACA) Workshop
http://www.gps.caltech.edu/meetings/MACA

Our Galaxy Should Be Teeming With Civilizations, But Where Are They?
http://www.space.com/searchforlife/shostak_paradox_011024.html

Researchers Find Gene That Boosts Longevity
http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/10/23/protectivegene.ap/index.html

Antigravity Device?
http://www.tdimension.com/lifter.html

Marching Into the 'Smart' Card Era
http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/industry/10/27/rec.smartcards.military.reut/index.h
tml

Microsoft's Xperience
http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/10/23/xp.london/index.html


____________________________


The Eras Project is a non-profit future studies project
focusing on the leading-edge news, events, ideas and
discoveries that will shape the future of humanity as we
enter the 21st Century and a new Era.

Eras News is the e-news service of TEP, providing the
latest news, reports and updates, including the Weekly
Briefing, sent free to your e-mail.

To subscribe to Eras News, send a blank e-mail to:
erasnews-subscribe@topica.com


Eras News Archive:
http://www.topica.com/lists/erasnews/read


THE ERAS PROJECT

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

� The Eras Project, 2001








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                           UFO Over Madrid - 1863

From: chris aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:56:43 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 00:44:57 -0500
Subject: UFO Over Madrid - 1863


Dear List,

Those of you who collect old reports may find this datum
interesting

In Paul Misraki�s book on UFOs, Des Signes dans le Ciel � Les
Extraterrestres (Labergerie, Paris 1968), we read of a "luminous
disc, crowned with a dome of flames" that was seen over Madrid,
and reported in the Gaceta de Madrid in 1863. Michel Bougard, in
La Chronique des O.V.N.I. (1977), also mentions the incident(La
Chronique des O.V.N.I. Michel Bougard, Editions Universitaires,
Jean-Pierre Delarge, 1977. p.133). However, neither author gets
the description quite right or reproduces the original source. A
search for the original newspaper article in the National
Library of Madrid soon revealed. In the Friday August 14th 1863
edition, issue number 226, in a section headed 'INTERIOR', four
brief items make reference to Madrid. In the first of these we
read:

"The night before last there was observed on the horizon a
luminous body that appeared towards the east, and it was
promptly thought to be a comet. It was of a reddish colour, and
on the top there could be seen an appendix or crown, that was
doubtlessly ablaze. It was stationary  for a long time
(mantvose mucho tiempo); but later it began to move quickly in
different directions: horizontally, rising and lowering."

This is an interesting case because although the object turns
out not to be disc-shaped it still falls into the category of
�Unidentified Flying Objects.�

As a part of my ongoing historical research project I am
currently preparing a publication on pre-1900 UFO incidents in
Spain and Portugal. I would greatly appreciate any contributions
to the case catalogue and am willing to exchange information in
return. The final result will not push any particular theory and
will include data on known hoaxes and �mysterious natural
phenomena.�


Sincerely,

Chris Aubeck








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                 Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:57:39 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 00:50:51 -0500
Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Velez


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'!
 >Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:52:10 +0100

 >>Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:04:11 -0400
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'!

 ><snip>

 >>I highly recommend that you
 >>speak to people like Katharina Wilson, Debbie 'Jordan' Kauble,
 >>Russ Hudson, Travis Walton, Charlie Hickson, or even to myself.

Hola Luis,

You wrote:

 >I did try to speak to you :-)). No hard feelings.

Speaking to me is fine Luis. When you 'impose' your own
interpretations on it, that's quite another. No hard feelings at
all. I've been having this same conversation for years. From the
chair I sit in, the prattle is the same, only the name at the
bottom of the posts changes.  :)

 >The name Russ Hudson eludes me at the moment. Who is he?

Rusty is one of Budd Hopkins cases. Along with several others
his case was one of those that was chosen as representative of
what is being reported by so many others. He was one of the
abductees that attended, and participated in, the abduction
conference that was held at M.I.T. back in 1992. CDB Bryan
(journalist who wrote the book on the conference) had a chance
to meet with Russ and interview him. Russ is one of the people
that Cordy credits with changing his mind about a phenomenon he
was initially very skeptical about. He mentions Russ and his
case along with several others in many subsequent interviews
that Cordy has given over the years.

I described in some detail (in a fairly recent post to this
List) a UFO abduction that Russ and his fellow musicians
experienced while on a playing tour of the American south. Russ
is the fellow who found that he had been "relocated" - deposited
on the balcony of _another_person's_ hotel room following a
really terrifying group (_multiple_ participant) abduction.

You may find of it of interest to know that Russ also happens to
be a well trained and experienced psychologist. Oh, and that he
recalls his harrowing experience _clearly_ without the aid of
hypnosis or speculative "guess-work" on his part. You know,
another one of those "pooping and pishing extremists" that is
_certain_ of the details and reality of what he is reporting.
;)


Respectfully,

John Velez

                       A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center
                       www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                johnvelez.aic@verizon.net
     "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."









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                          Secrecy News -- 10/25/01

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 12:00:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 00:53:46 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/25/01


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
October 29, 2001


**      BUSH REVIEW OF SECRECY POLICY BEGINS
**      STATUS OF DOD DECLASSIFICATION REPORTED
**      DJINN ENERGY


BUSH REVIEW OF SECRECY POLICY BEGINS

The Bush Administration has established an interagency group to
prepare changes to the Clinton Administration's 1995 executive
order 12958 which governs national security classification and
declassification policy.

The Executive Order Drafting Subcommittee held its first meeting
on August 9. Since then, eight member agencies have proposed
changes to 24 of the 34 sections in the Clinton Order, according
to a report in an internal Energy Department newsletter.

"As can be expected, there were more proposed changes to Section
3.4, Automatic Declassification, than to any other section," the
newsletter noted. That section dictates that most classified
records be automatically declassified when they become 25 years
old.

"There is a general recognition that there need to be some
changes made," said Laura L.S. Kimberly, associate director for
policy at the Information Security Oversight Office and chair of
the new E.O. Drafting Subcommittee.

But "we're in the very, very beginning stages of this," said Ms.
Kimberly. She indicated that there would be an opportunity for
public comment on any substantial changes that are ultimately
proposed.

"There's fewer changes than you might have thought," an official
from another agency told Secrecy News. "I don't think it's a 180
degree change; it's more of a refinement. I think the things you
care most about will remain intact."

The official also offered an explanation for why the proposed
changes, which he declined to describe, are less far-reaching
than they might have been.

"A lot of people who would have resisted or opposed
declassification in the past are now running their own little
declassification empires [as a result of the Clinton order]," he
said. "And they are in no hurry to dismantle them."

The text of the news item about the pending revisions to the
executive order from the Energy Department newsletter Communique
is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/eorev.html


STATUS OF DOD DECLASSIFICATION REPORTED

Declassification of historically valuable records in the
Department of Defense is proceeding in an orderly fashion,
according to a recent report to Congress.

While most defense agencies were on track to complete the review
of 25 year old records prior to automatic declassification,
extensions were said to be required for the Defense Threat
Reduction Agency and the Joint Forces Command.

Politically, the most significant feature of the report is that
it does not solicit congressional intervention in the
declassification process or request legislative relief from
existing requirements. Accordingly, the FY 2002 Defense
Authorization Act is silent on declassification policy for the
first time in several years.

The February 2001 report to Congress was obtained last week
under the Freedom of Information Act. It is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doddeclass.html


DJINN ENERGY

A leading Pakistani nuclear scientist who was questioned by the
Pakistani government last week concerning his ties to the
Taliban is known as a proponent of "Islamic science", a weird
hybrid of scientific terminology and Islamic lore.

Sultan Bashiruddin Mehmood is a pioneer in the development of
nuclear technology in Pakistan. But in 1980, as a senior
director of the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission, he
"recommended that djinns [or genies], being fiery creatures,
ought to be tapped as a free source of energy. By this means, a
final solution to Pakistan's energy problems would be found."

This episode was recounted by Pakistani physicist Pervez
Hoodbhoy in his enlightening book "Islam and Science: Religious
Orthodoxy and the Battle for Rationality" (Zed Books, 1991).

In a Wall Street Journal article on Islamic science (13
September 1988), Dr. Mehmood noted that King Solomon had
harnessed energy from djinns. "I think that if we develop our
souls we can develop communications with them," he said.

While the notion of "djinn energy" is ridiculous -- even in
Pakistan there are no djinn engines -- ridicule is beside the
point. A more important point is that influential figures in the
Islamic world are devoted to a view of reality that cannot be
readily reconciled with conventional Western thought. This is a
"translation" problem that cannot be solved with dictionaries.

The detention of Bashiruddin Mehmood, which is expected to be
temporary, was reported in the Pakistan Observer in Islamabad on
October 25. See "Nuclear Scientists Picked [Up] By Agencies":

  http://pakobservercom.readyhosting.com/old/october/25/main.htm


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@lists.fas.org>
with this command in the body of the message:
  subscribe secrecy_news [your email address]

Secrecy News is archived at:
        http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web: www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691








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                  Cydonian Imperative: New 'Faces' on Mars

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:44:08 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 01:00:43 -0500
Subject: Cydonian Imperative: New 'Faces' on Mars


10-29-01
The Cydonian Imperative

New "Faces" on Mars: Evidence of...What?
by Mac Tonnies

http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

Rarely a month goes by without new Martian "faces" discovered by
armchair archaeologists. Most of them are dubious profiles with
only vague resemblances to terrestrial counterparts. More than a
few demand significant "retouching" before they can be made to
look like anything in particular. So who's to say what might be
a candidate extraterrestrial artifact and what's not?

[image]

Lionesque likeness near Mars' north pole.

The image above shows an interesting formation resembling a
lion's head seen in profile. Is this the work of intelligence or
the result of natural forces? The latter seems to be the most
likely explanation, for several reasons. For example, there is
nothing intrinsically unique about the "lion's head." When
viewed in geological context, one quickly sees that it is a
single component in the vast aerological canvas of swirls that
is Mars' northern polar cap.

Given the riotous complexity from which to choose, it comes as
no surprise that at least one portion has a terrestrial
likeness. Compounding the argument against intelligent
manufacture is the fact that the "lion's head" is seen in
profile (see discussion on page two). When reviewing a profile
image for signs of artificiality, eye-catching properties such
as bisymmetry are not present for objective analysis. This
doesn't necessarily imply that all profiles are natural
formations, but it certainly makes proper scientific assessment
much more difficult, if not impossible.

[image]

"A Princess of Mars"?

Probably the best Martian profile discovered thus far is Dr. Tom
Van Flandern's "Nefertiti," which exhibits some very
human-looking anatomical detail. It's just possible that the
"Nefertiti" formation, with its peculiar Egyptian appearance,
deserves more study than it has received.

Recently, much online attention has been attracted to
an imposing-looking human face, complete with
headdress (below).

[image]

This startling likeness is the product of mirroring a
single image to produce a predictably bisymmetric
"face."

However, the very human-like appearance is the result of
"mirroring" a single image. While there are facial attributes,
they do not comprise an entire face; only subjective
interpretation can produce the image above. Below is the Martian
landscape seen prior to speculative mirroring. It appears
less-than-impressive, especially after having viewed the
"reconstructed" version.

[image]

Another Martian face, or just filling in the blanks?

As discussed elsewhere, I personally think the Cydonia face was
intended to represent two seperate visages, as supported by
Richard Hoagland's a priori prediction that the two halves were
designed to encode hominid/feline imagery. Some commentators
suggest that the Face was meant to represent something more, and
cite mirrored, "upside-down" graphics such as the one below as
evidence that the Face includes a (very) cleverly inserted
portrait of a "Gray" alien.

[image]

Alleged "Gray," artistically enhanced.

I don't think the "alien" likeness passes scientific muster. The
impression requires too much imagination on behalf of the
viewer, and too much speculative "restoration" in order to be
seen in the first place. (In the numerous "Gray"
reconstructions, the Face's hominid side is mirrored and the
large groove corresponding to a "mouth" is bifurcated to produce
questionable "eyes" such as the ones seen on the cover of
Whitley Strieber's 1987 book "Communion.")

[image]

"Alien" painting by Ted Seth Jacobs.

I contend that we are culturally conditioned to expect the
visage of a big-headed, big-eyed "Gray" when confronted with
photos alluding to extraterestrial intelligence. That we managed
to find a "Gray" lurking in the curves of the enigmatic Face on
Mars comes as no particular surprise, especially after realizing
the demanding steps required to bring out the image. On the
other hand, if we admit that the Face was perhaps designed to
encode hominid and feline forms, as argued by Hoagland, then who
is to say with absolute certainty that the "Gray" likeness is
purely fanciful?


As the dubious appearance of a "Gray" came only after the
acquisition of a high-resolution overhead view of the Face, it's
predictive scientific merit is zero. This is in sharp contrast
to Hoagland's hominid/feline model, which was predicted ten
years before the Mars Gobal Surveyor captured the latest image
on the Cydonia face, and based off the inferior data available
at the time.

It is quite likley that, if the features in Cydonia are
artificial, we will find additional structures on the Martian
surface. In the meantime, the search continues unabated.

http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

-end-








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                       Ghosts, UFOs and Local Politics

From: John Tenney <jelt2000@msn.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:27:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 01:05:50 -0500
Subject: Ghosts, UFOs and Local Politics


I knew someone would want to do a "UFO Mayor" story!

John E.L. Tenney

--------

Researcher blends interests in ghosts, government


By: GARY GOULD, Of The Oakland Press October 28, 2001

October 28, 2001

He's taken on government conspiracies, searched for proof of
UFOs and tracked down ghosts for 15 years, but now John Tenney
is pursuing something truly unknown to him.

He's running for mayor of Royal Oak. "I think I'd be a good
mayor," said Tenney, 30, who founded The Great Lakes Ghost
Hunters Society and the Michigan Anomalous Information Network
in 1997.

Tenney will face challengers Mike Andrzejak, a city councilman,
and resident Bill Urich for a two-year term as mayor in the Nov.
6 election. Incumbent Dennis Cowan is not running after 14 years
on the City Commission.

"I'm a person who always wanted answers to my questions, and I
think I would do that for the residents (as mayor)," he said.

A lifelong resident of Royal Oak, Tenney is making the leap from
research and lectures about the unexplained to politics in part
because of his love for the community.

Tenney, a graphic designer, is assistant manager of the Preston
Burke art gallery in Royal Oak, and he's the owner/creator of
the online city guide Royal Oak Online

He also is an ordained minister - sort of.

The designation reverend, which appears as part of his title on
his paranormal web sites, is something of an inside joke.

"Many paranormal researchers get as many mail-order degrees as
they can to lend credibility to their research," Tenney said.
"So it was sort of an in-joke with other researchers when I
became a mail-order minister."

Unlike many researchers, he tries to have a sense of humor about
the topic.

His paranormal Web site is designed to resemble the cover of a
supermarket tabloid, complete with the sensational headline:
"Now the Startling Truth Can Be Told!"

While he may have fun with his research, Tenney is very serious
about finding answers to the unknown. This desire led him to
research government conspiracies when he was just 15 years old.

"I started out studying the Kennedy assassination," Tenney said.
"When you are dealing with the government, you'll find that
conspiracy theories are passed down from generation to
generation."

He later turned to researching UFO sightings and then took an
interest in the supernatural.

Through his research, he tries to prove the paranormal exists -
though often his findings disprove common ghostly myths and
perceived phenomena.

Of all the hauntings and other paranormal occurrences he's
studied, Tenney said only about 10 percent of those can't be
explained.

One of the strangest and still unexplained incidents was a
Bigfoot "attack" in Monroe County in 1965, which Tenney
investigated years after the fact.

"A creature, which fit the common description of Bigfoot,
grabbed a woman through the window of her car on a remote road
in Monroe County one night and tried to pull her from the car
before it fled," Tenney said. "There was a countywide search for
the creature for weeks after that, but nothing was found."

Closer to home, he said Oakland County is host to many of its
own unexplained phenomena.

"There are a lot of UFO reports in Oakland County," Tenney said.
"People report that a lot of the cemeteries here are haunted,
but a lot of that is active imagination."

One of the more prominent ghost stories in Royal Oak is that of
a spirit that haunts the railroad tracks between Washington and
Main streets. Accounts of a ghostly woman with no legs floating
along the tracks have been told for several years now, he said.

Tenney said a number of people have been killed in car-train
accidents in that area of Royal Oak, including a woman who fits
the description of the ghost many have seen. She died in the
1980s.

UFOs are another phenomenon often difficult to explain,
especially since the government maintains a veil of secrecy
around the subject.

Tenney's search for answers about UFOs led him to approach
then-presidential candidate George W. Bush on a visit to Royal
Oak on Feb. 22, 2000.

According to the online magazine UFOcity.com, Bush met with some
residents at a local restaurant while campaigning in Michigan,
and Tenney saw this as an opportunity to ask a presidential
candidate about UFOs.


At the conclusion of the visit, Tenney placed himself in Bush's
path and shook the candidate's hand while asking, "As a
presidential candidate, would you like to issue a statement
concerning the American public's right to access whatever
information the United States government currently has available
on the topic of UFO..."

Before Tenney could finish his question, he told UFOcity.com, he
was grabbed by the arm by a Texas Ranger, who was protecting
Bush, and was pulled from the crowd. In the meantime, Bush was
pushed onto a van by another officer and was gone.

Though he was not successful in receiving an answer from the
future president, Tenney told UFOcity.com that the reaction he
received said enough - and it continued to fuel his desire - and
that of his organization - for answers.

The Michigan Anomalous Information Network has 15 active members
who assist Tenney in his investigations. Through his
organization, he said he conducts two or three lectures each
year on topics related to his study.

Tenney said he also is writing a couple of books about strange
happenings in Michigan, including one about a military plane
from Michigan that disappeared while pursuing a UFO.

But first, he said, he'll have to put the Nov. 6 election behind
him. Having spent most of his life in disagreement with the
government, he said he's now ready to make a difference.

"There's a truly amazing groundswell throughout Royal Oak," he
said of the supporters who have encouraged his bid for mayor.
"I've spent my entire life disenchanted with the government - I
say, who better to represent the people?"

On the Net

John Tenney for Mayor - http://www.votetenney.com

Michigan Anomalous Information Network - http://mainorg.tripod.com

The Great Lakes Ghost Hunters Society - http://www.ghost.web.com

�The Oakland Press 2001











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               Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Cecchini

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:23:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 01:27:41 -0500
Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'! - Cecchini


 >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:04:11 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: A Skeptibunker Becomes 'Human'!

 >>>Truth be known, Luis, I do not know if that which I perceive I've
 >>>experienced really happened. And I am the first to admit to this
 >>>fact. I say only that the UFO abduction phenomena is the only one
 >>>which best explains what I've experienced. Which is why I almost
 >>>always use the word, "perceived" experiences.

 >>>And I believe that skeptics are of value to the conundrum. I do
 >>>not believe that skeptibunkers are of any value, even to
 >>>themselves. And I define a skeptibunker as one who cannot admit
 >>>even to the possibilty of alien intervention. One who will cop
 >>>to any and all excuses, even unreasonable ones, to attempt to
 >>>explain it. Such is culpable ignorence.

 >><snip>

 >>>PS: I choose not to be believed, but rather for people to believe
 >>>the possibility. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 >>I just wanted to say that the above was well-said and worth a
 >>rereading, especially by "extremist members" of opposing sides
 >>of this Mystery.

 >Hi Ron,

 >Gee, I guess that makes those of us who have had undeniable and
 >close-up real-World UFO abduction experiences "extremists" now.

Well, I didn't mean in the Bin Laden sense...

But, from my
middle-of-the-road-trying-to-ascertain-the-truth-and-
listening-to-all-parties position, you do represent one end of
the spectrum.

That's mostly by what I meant by "extremist".

The rest of what I meant is more from a
philosophical/ontological stance, stuff regardinging theories of
knowledge, and what it means to "know" something, objective
versus subjective realities, yada yada yada.

I.e. you say you _know_ you were abducted, but all we have to go
on, and all _you_ have to go on, are your memories.
_Compelling_ memories, but still memories.

And sure, there are many, many similar stories -- many of which
add credence to your statements, but still, the problem remains
that there is no objectively verifiable proof.  I know you know
this, so I won't belabor the point.

For what it's worth, it has been due very largely to your mostly
sober-minded (by which I mean, you're never "crazy sounding",
but sometimes the "Velez temper" flares), intelligent,
passionate and lengthy posts about your experiences that I take
the phenomenon seriously at all.

I hope you take some sort of satisfaction in that.

Finally, I think maybe that temper caused you to say a few
things to Jim that maybe weren't warranted.  I think it shows
alot of guts on his part that he's willing to say "I don't know
for sure", just as it takes alot of guts on your part to
maintain such a staunch absolutist position.

 >And it doesn't make us, (those of us who are confident we know
 >what has happened to us) "extremists" either. I resent being >
labelled that way. I am reporting something I _know_ happened.

I believe that you are not lying, and I believe that you really
are telling us to the best of your abilities exactly what you
consciously remember.

Beyond that, I don't believe anything.

 >As an abductee who _is_sure,_ I'd just like to say, Thanx for
 >all your 'help' Jim.
...
 >You and many others like you are a category all unto yourselves.

He's a Dylan nut and I'm a Springsteen nut, so we kinda are our
own category.....








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                        Question for Stanton Friedman

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 21:23:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 01:36:55 -0500
Subject: Question for Stanton Friedman


Hello there, Mr. Friedman.

I tried getting through to you last night on the 10-28-01 Art
Bell show hosted by George Noory, but of course the lines were
jammed.

I wanted to ask you how you resolve some contradictory
statements I've heard you make several times; in particular,
when you say in one breath (in paraphrase) :

"Everyone, especially people with clearances, knows how easy it
is to keep and maintain secrets."

and then in a later breath assert how the government can't keep
this secret (referring to the UFO/ET phenomenon), something like
how it's "leaking out all over the place", etc.

So, the obvious question is:

Which secrets can and cannot the government maintain?

And if your answer is "knowledge of the existence of
extraterrestrial life visiting this planet", then why do you say
that, essentially, it's not a secret!?

Seriously, I'm confused...











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                 Psychological Trauma [was: UFO/ET Book For

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 22:55:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 01:39:11 -0500
Subject: Psychological Trauma [was: UFO/ET Book For


 >Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:07:39 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO/ET Book For Children

 >If so, has any consideration been given to the fact that; a ten
 >or twelve year old who 'may be' having disturbing UFO/alien
 >experiences already, and who has not yet made any connection
 >between those experiences and UFOs/aliens (on their own,) are
 >being "introduced" to an "explanation" that they may wrongly (or
 >rightly) accept and cling to for life?

<snip>

 >Fact: A ten or a twelve year old does not yet have the
 >intellectual or emotional/psychological foundation and skills to
 >deal with such a complex concept. Especially if they have been
 >having unsettling experiences themselves. They don't have the
 >coping skills needed. Skills that only come with knowledge,
 >education, and most-times 'hard earned' life experience.

<snip>

 >Sorry, I just don't 'cotton' to the idea of involving children
 >in what is on any level, a completely disturbing phenomenon. I
 >was in my 40's when I "made the connection." I _barely_ had the
 >coping skills I needed myself in order to maintain my sanity and
 >my perspective. What chance does a ten year old have?

Color me curious, but I'd be really interested in hearing the
stories of those who've had to go through what you went through:
the questioning, the doubts, the fear, the paranoia, the "Am I
losing my mind?", the slow unravelling of the clues, etc.

I have a fairly vivid imagination, and I'm seeing a
"psychological thriller" of sorts playing out in my head, and I
can't help but be very interested to hear what the actual steps
were that some of you had to take.

 >Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 23:23:51 -0400
 >To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Statement On Alien Abduction

 >Luis and many others who presume to tell us what may or may not
 >be happening to us, need to address the elements of physical
 >evidence that in many cases is a matter of painful reality for
 >us, but just a minor theoretical/intellectual detail to them.

<snip>

 >"What physical evidence?"

 >_All_ of these marks that I have collected appear on the bodies
 >of individuals that are reporting UFO/alien contact - abduction.
 >These marks are a very personal issue for me as well. Myself, my
 >wife, and my son, _all_ have 'scoop marks' - punch biopsy scars
 >-  on our bodies.

Just curious, but have you had x-rays taken?

I wonder how many people who suspect they've been abducted, and
who may or may not have weird bumps and scars on their body,
have been able to get, say, x-rays of their entire body, to see
if there's more than just a mere scar.

God knows I've tried (for health purposes -- for the heck of it.
I mean, I've been paying ungodly amounts of money to insurance,
so why not, right?), and doctors are very reluctant to do it.

I've got a couple of small cysts that I'd liked checked  out...
See if maybe they trigger the ol' metal detector...

(Just kidding.)

(I think...)











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                Cydonian Imperative: 'Out-of-Frame' Technique

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 22:24:25 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 01:41:00 -0500
Subject: Cydonian Imperative: 'Out-of-Frame' Technique


The Cydonian Imperative
10-30-01
http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html (page 24)

Technique for Assessing Artificiality of "Profile"
Surface Features

John Levasseur, discoverer of the "Nefertiti" formation (see
above) and member of Scientists for Planetary SETI Research, has
developed a practical method of determining the probability that
a given Martian surface feature is artificial. The a priori
argument presented in Levasseur's essay is strong, and offers
the most stringent criteria yet for objectively assessing the
problematic "profiles" that litter the Martian surface. Thanks
to John for allowing his paper to debut here.

--Mac Tonnies

----------------

The Out-of-Frame Hypothesis as Applied to MGS Image
#M0202619

by J.P. Levasseur

Based on the impressionistic hypothesis there is a large-scaled
rendering of a cat upon the Martian surface, 6 km or so in
length, surface features consistent with feline features outside
the 3 km wide frame can be predicted. In my opinion, the
impression of a big cat is strong, having a very good head,
shoulder with extended left front leg, and torso. The two right
legs appear to cross as if in a trot. There is a very good ear,
a loosely hanging bottom lip, a long back, a belly, a pupil in
the eye and a nostril in the nose. It appears to be wearing a
collar.

[image]

The suspicion that there are probably more hills,
mounds, and raised areas continuing out of frame to
complete what appears as large scaled art can be
tested with new imagery: a feline left claw either in
a closed or open position, a hind leg and haunches,
and most importantly, a long tail of some kind either
extended or curled. The tail is important because it
should extend uninterrupted, long, smooth and slender
for a considerable distance, a somewhat unusual
surface feature.

The a priori prediction is that new imagery will show
recognizable feline features continuing out of the MGS
M0202619 frame lining up and completing those seen in
frame and done so with the same type of mounds and
hills.

Should the predicted feline features indeed appear in any new
images taken of the area, features that at this time that have
not yet been seen, there will be support for the cat art
hypothesis, and thus support for many other suspected artistic
features such as the Cydonia Face and the �Nefertiti� Face, to
name only two.

If the out of frame surface features do not complete the pattern
of the cat then the cat art hypothesis will be in question.

Of course it probably won�t be conclusive because impacts and/or
erosion could have disfigured the pattern, or if, say, the cat
ends up having a bobbed tail.

Testing this hypothesis means having new images of
what�s just outside the available frame. The context
image does not have sufficient resolution and there
appear to be no other usable MGS images. New images
are needed. The chance of acquiring an image that
would satisfactorily provide a test for this
hypothesis in the near future is remote.

The head is very good but looks somewhat small for the body and
legs. The emission angle (perspective) isn�t the cause of this
because the ancillary data puts the camera almost directly
overhead and the feature is almost in the middle of the image.
(The slant distance and altitude are equal.) But the aspect
ratio is 0.91. This means the ratio of the vertical meters per
pixel rate to the horizontal meters per pixel rate in this image
are not equal. I tried �stretching� the image vertically by
about ten percent and the head looked a little better
proportioned, but this is by no means an aspect ratio
�correction�, a procedure I am not familiar with. Nevertheless,
I consider the impression of the big cat so strong that I am
still not deterred by this slight skewing problem.

There is always the contention that we should not be seeing
artistic renderings of what we see on Earth today, that the
existence of artistic patterns depicting human faces and animals
of recent evolution on Earth are ludicrous and embarrassing
claims. But these arguments rest on flimsy origins-related
assumptions, like that any artificial Martian objects would be
built only in the very distant past by an indigenous
civilization, one that should exhibit (ironically) earth-like
infrastructure. Skeptics have for decades made similar
non-arguments regarding the humanoid Cydonia Face. But there are
many other possibilities that cannot be ruled out at this stage.
For example, some scientists seriously consider the interesting
idea of ETI periodically passing through the solar system
(something predicted statistically by Sagan over thirty years
ago) and leaving its mark on the planet. In this case the
renderings need not be of them but maybe of us and other Earth
images. They could have been made at almost any time, and need
not require infrastructure such as roads, which would not have
been necessary if the builders are flying and not living there.
As far as I�m concerned, this idea is as plausible a scenario as
any at this point because we are not in any position at this
stage to say what or what cannot be found on that planet or how
it got there. Humanoid faces and �modern� cats aren�t
necessarily ruled out. There are many origins ideas. Arguing
that these different scenarios are implausible doesn�t make the
evidence go away.

The methodology of the out-of-frame hypothesis is identical to
that applied to the Cydonia Face for the last twenty years:
Predictions based on impressionistic assumptions of artistic
artificiality are tested when these predicted features appear or
do not appear in new or better imagery. In the case of the
Cydonia Face, scientists have predicted more facial features,
more detail in these features, and symmetry. Contrary to what�s
written in the popular media, many of these predictions turned
out to be accurate. The out-of-frame predictions are being made
in exactly the same manner, with exactly the same types of
assumptions regarding suspected artistry, and are to be tested
in exactly the same manner using new imagery.

There are a number of other Martian artistic surface features
that researchers, including myself, claim to see. In my opinion
some are very compelling, even better than the Puma, the
�Nefertiti� Face a prime example. Skeptics argue researchers are
�looking at clouds�, yet the artificial verses the natural can
be discerned even in clouds� I for one can readily distinguish a
jet contrail from natural clouds in the sky. The attached
so-called collared Puma image is in my opinion an excellent
candidate for artificiality. But the Puma image is unique
because of the way it is chopped off on either side of the image
strip, lending itself well to this method of making out-of-frame
predictions. The hypothesis will be tested when/if new images of
this area will confirm or deny the out-of-frame predictions of
extended feline features based on the impression of an artistic
rendering of a Puma in NASA/JPL/MGS image #M0202619.

http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html (page 24)

-end-








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                 Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 00:38:13 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 01:47:14 -0500
Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed! - Gates


 >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:17:35 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@home.com>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!


 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:26:43 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: British MOD UFO Study Revealed!
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 ><snip>

 >>The skeptical mindset has been over the years:

 >>1) No amount of documents or evidence will ever convince... (so)

 >>2) Most if not all documents and evidence are proof of
 >>misidentification, hoax, stars, balloons or errors by the
 >>witness... (but)

 >>3) If said document or evidence cannot be explained as above,
 >>then we attack the credibility of the witness...

 >>4) Bottom line it absolutly cannot be, so no matter what or who
 >>everything points to some "earthly" explaination.... (if)

 >>5) We are unable to find said earthly explaination we cling to
 >>the hope that someday, sometime, someone, will come up with
 >>said earthly explaination.

 >How different from the believers' mindset, which says that

The key thing is that the gulliable believers are just as bad,
just as foolish, and cling to foolishness just like the skeptics
do.

Skeptics say all cases are explainable; gulliable believers say
everything is a UFO.  Other then a difference of opinion, they
are on the same sheet of belief music.


 >1) No UFO case must ever be explained. Any attempt to do so is
 >"debunking", "pelicanism" or "skeptibunking".

 >2) Everything any UFO witness or abductee reports must be
 >accepted without question as the literal truth. Anyone who
 >doubts of finds discrepancies in an account is a heartless,
 >unsympathetic monster.

 >3) There are no earthly explanations.

 >4) If documentary evidence which can decisively explain a case
 >is produced it is clearly "disinformation", probably spread by
 >the US government. This is because believing ufologists are so
 >clever that it takes the resources of an entire government to
 >fool them

 >5) If ultimately believers are forced by the weight of evidence
 >to accept a sceptical explanation, they cling to the hope that
 >eventually someday, sometime someone will come up with the
 >"smoking gun" which proves the ETH. 55 years and counting.

Always interesting to see the gulliable skeptics who believe
anything as long as it fits their skeptical belief system.

Cheers,

Robert








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                      UFO Magazine USA On Philip Corso

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:39:02 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 01:57:59 -0500
Subject: UFO Magazine USA On Philip Corso


Dear Members of the List,

I have just received, here in France, the October issue of UFO
Magazine (the American one) and I want to recommand reading it,
if only for the article of Don Ecker's 'Honor Restored: The
De-Pflocked Facts About Philip Corso'.

One of the sharpest criticisms against Corso was that he had
betrayed Senator Thurmond, who had written a preface for his
book 'I Walked with Giants', not for a book on Roswell.

The UFO magazine article by Don Ecker shows the reproduction of
the release signed by Senator Strom Thurmond, giving to
Lieutenant Colonel Corso the "irrevocable right and permission
to use and to publish the material described below, in any and
all editions of the book presently entitled Roswell Book..."

So, this authorization, dated 2-7-97, clearly refered to
Roswell, although it was not the final title, 'The Day After
Roswell'. He knew that Corso was writing on Roswell!

Don Ecker points out that Karl Pflock has repeated that
criticism in his book on Roswell, and notes that "Pflock could
have easily discovered these facts had he contacted Birnes and
simply asked about it while researching hid book. Could it be
that Pflock had another agenda that happened to involve the
personal destruction of an honorable man ?"

Of course, this does not put an end to other criticism on the book
of Corso, but thank you, Don, for putting the record straight on
this one!


Regards to all,

Gildas Bourdais









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                             More MUFON Dissent

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:56:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 02:01:09 -0500
Subject: More MUFON Dissent


TO:  The Executive Committee of the Mutual UFO Network, Inc.
      P. O. Box 369
      Morrison, CO  80465-0369

FROM:  Larry W. Bryant
        3518 Martha Custis Drive
        Alexandria, VA  22302

DATE:  October 30, 2001


This letter formalizes my previously expressed dissent from, and
objection to, the MUFON leadership's bylaws-revision policy (as
now published on page 21 of the October 2001 issue of the MUFON
UFO Journal -- to wit:  "...to vote for the bylaws, the members
need to do nothing").

Accordingly, as a general MUFON member and a member of the MUFON
Board of Directors, I hereby withhold my permission for the
MUFON Executive Committee -- and/or anyone else concerned -- to
count my NON-vote on the proposed new bylaws as a "YES" vote.
This denial of permission also applies to any similar future
action by the MUFON Executive Committee and/or Board of
Directors.

Be advised that your headstrong, illegitimate circumvention of
the current MUFON bylaws' voting process not only violates my
(and others') right not to vote; it also tarnishes the public
image of our public-interest, tax-exempt organization -- to the
degree that the public should be alerted to the potential for
additional wrongdoing at the hands of a leadership concerned
more with its self-preservation than with its duty of fulfilling
the first principles of organizational self-governance.

Therefore, in the interests of openness, fair play, and
democratic decisionmaking, I request that this letter be
published as a letter-to-the-editor, in its entirety and as soon
as possible, within a forthcoming issue of the MUFON UFO
Journal.




LARRY W. BRYANT
MUFON Director of Governmental Affairs

Copy furnished to:

    Lewis Kannon









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   Oct > Oct 31

                     Cydonian Imperative: Clarification

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 16:20:52 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 02:02:50 -0500
Subject: Cydonian Imperative: Clarification


 From http://mactonnies.com/imperative24.html

Reactions to this piece have been highly skeptical concerning
the reality of the 'puma' in Levasseur's picture. This is
understandable. However, the nature of the so-called "puma" is
not the reason for this article appearing here. Rather,
Levasseur's a priori method for assessing Martian features in
general is what impressed me. Inclusion of the above essay
doesn't constitute an "endorsement" of the "puma," but
recognition of the scientific predictive potential of the
"out-of-frame" method outlined.


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 816-561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112
http://mactonnies.com








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   Oct > Oct 31

                Live Stream: Erich von Daniken Speaks at U.S.

From: Diana Botsford <diana@destinationspace.net>
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:52:42 GMT
Fwd Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 02:14:29 -0500
Subject: Live Stream: Erich von Daniken Speaks at U.S.



SPRINGFIELD, MO -- Erich von Dniken, one of the world's leading
figures in the field of extraterrestrial life, will present his
first lecture at a U.S. university in 22 years at Drury on
November 1 at 11am, Central Time.

Available via Windows Media and Quicktime
Live and then on demand
http://www.drury.edu

Beginning with his 1968 book "Chariots of the Gods?," von
Dniken proposed that Earth had been repeatedly visited by
advanced aliens from other worlds. In dozens of books since, von
Dniken has refined his theories and presented evidence to
support them, asserting that an extraterrestrial influence was
clear in the construction of pyramids in Egypt, giant figures
outlined on desert plains in Nazca, Peru, and the design of
artifacts found in archaeological sites. His views have been
greeted with much skepticism; many researchers believe the
phenomena von Dniken relies upon can be explained in other
ways. The controversy of his views has helped make him the
world's best-selling non-fiction author, with 60 million books
sold. In his most recent book, Odyssey of the Gods, von Dniken
argues that the gods of ancient Greece were extraterrestrials.

Von Dniken's lecture will take place from 11 a.m. to 1 p.m. in
Clara Thompson Hall. The event is free and open to the public.
Should the seating capacity of Clara Thompson Hall be exceeded,
guests will be directed to an overflow area nearby where they
can watch the lecture on closed-circuit TV. Von Dniken's talk
will also be available online through the Drury Web site at:

http://www.drury.edu

Von Dniken appears at Drury as part of this year's convocation
series, “Origins.” The series examines and explores
origins in a variety of subject areas — arts, sciences,
spiritual issues, culture, and with von Dniken, even the very
nature of life on Earth. More information about von Dniken is
available at:

http://www.legendarytimes.com

and details of the Origins series are available online at:

http://origins.drury.edu